The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-06 00:00:00

Group X.

The Committee to whom the Bills comprised in this group 'were
referred, reassembled this morning—present, Lord Courtenay.
Chairman; Mr. Darby, Mr. B. Wall, and Mr. P. Scrope.
LONDON AND YORK RAILWAY.

The Committee proceeded with the evidence in this case.
Mr. PAGET, on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, handed in a
scale of charges which the Company, if they should be allowed to
make the railway, would be prepared to make. These charges
would not exceed the tolls spoken to by the witnesses who had
been examined.

Mr. Samuel Lovel was then called and examined by Mr. 'PAGET
—He stated that he had been for 23 years a coal.merchant and
tanner in Bedford. He obtained his coal from Lynn. The price
to the consumer in the towns was from 28s. to 30s. per ton; the
charge for carriage to Bedford being Ss. 6d. per ton. If this rail-
way were made he expected that the town would be supplied with
coal at 14s. 6d. per ton. He believed th at the corn trade would
be very much impro►ed by this railway. He had originally
established his tan-yard for the purpose of supplying the London
market; but the high price of carriage had prevented him doing
so. In consequence of this high price by carriage he had only ma.
nufactured for home consumption.
Cross-examined by Mr. V. LEE—Knew the proposed line from
Fenny Stratford to Bedford. Rnew the coal districts of Derby..
shire. The coal of that district was suited to the manufactures of
Bedford. The malt he sent to London would go to his factor. It
would be convenient to have the malt delivered near to the breweries.
He would purchase his hides in London at Leadenhall-market.
It would be convenient, therefore, to have the terminus of the
railway at Finsbury.
Captain Lewes, the manager of the Manchester and Leeds Rail.
way, was called, and he stated that the Liverpool and Manchester
Railway Company and the Manchester and Leeds Company fre.
quently carried manure. He thought manure could be carried on
the London and York line without inconvenience to the passengers.
The witness was cross-examined by Mr. HILDYkRD, to show that
a manure depot at King's-cross would be a great nuisance.

George Hunt, examined by Mr. DENISON—He was a draper in
Bedford. He paid 3/. Bs. a ton for goods for Manchester. He had
not made any calculation of what the cost would be by a railway.
Mr. Whitbread was called to speak to the general advantages of
a railway to Bedford. The London acd York was the most advan.
tageous scheme that had yet been proposed.
Mr. John Saville, a woolstapler at St. Neots, said he was in the
habit of buying large quantities of wool. He purchased it from
various places within a distance of from twenty to thirty miles
round St. Neots. The wool was sent principally to Yorkshire.
The present cost of conveying it to the Yorkshire market was about
3/. per ton. He sent it to Leicester, and from Leicester to York-
shire. If the I.ondon and York Railway were formed, the cost
would be 11. 10s. Bd.

Mr. John Day, brewer, of St. Neots, was called, and examined
by Mr. PAGET—The population of St. Neots was about 3,000
The London and York line, if carried out, would be of great ad.
vantage to the town. About 2,000,000 bricks were annually made
in the town. These were all sent to London by the railway. A
large quantity of draining tile was also made in the neighbourhood.
The brick.yards were situated immediately on the line of the pro
posed railway.

Cross-examined by Mr. Tamicir —Was not aware that draining
tiles were sent to London. He bad never heard that bricks were
extensively sent by railways.
Mr. E. Geard said he was a draper at St. Neots. He got
his goods principally from London. Front Manchester the cost of
the carriage of goods was 51. per ton, and to London 21. per ton.
If the railway were to be made from Manchester, the carriage
would be about 30s. per ton. A great many rags were
sent to St. Neots to make paper with. The paper
manufactured at St. Ntots was principally sent to Lou-
don. About 400 tons of coal were used in the manufacture of
paper.

Mr. J. Carrington stated that he was an ironmonger at SI

Neots. He had been in business these thirty years. The means
of transit, both north and south of the town, were very incon-
venient. The distance from London was fifty-six miles. The
present coach fare was 1/. inside; by railway it would be about 12s.
The Committee were engaged up till four o'clock with similar
evidence with respect to Huatingdon.— Adjourned till to-morrow.

Group 0.
GRAND JUNCTION POTTERIES LINE.

The Committee met at the usual hour. Mr. Hawes, Chairman.
Mr. His 1, addressed the Committee against the proposed line.
The line of argument adopted by the Learned Gentleman was, that
the Grand Junction Railway, in first proposing the "'l' line" and
afterwards the " Crescent line," looked to their own interests in
particular, making the convenience of the inhabitants of the Pot-
teries only a secondary consideration. It was evident that the in-
habitants of the Potteries were not in favour of the proposed line,
while there could be no doubt whatever they were in favour of a
through line, and the Grand Junction Company surveyed the line
proposed, and came before the Committee at their own peril.
Mr. Coccauax having replied, the parties were ordered to with-
draw.
After an interval of some time, the parties were admitted.
The CHAIRMAN informed them that they considered the pre-
amble of the Bill proved on the condition that certain clauses should
be inserted in the Bill.

Group E.
NEWCASTLE AND BERWICK LINE.
This Committee re-assembled at twelve, o'clock this morning to
proceed with the consideration of this case, which occupied them
nearly the whole ef last week.
Mr. Nicolson was reexamined by Mr. TINIPIA. He stated that
he had made an estimate of the advantages which would accrue
to the North Shields Company from the extension to Tyne-
mouth, if the Newcastle and Berwick line should be carried out.
The number of persons passing annually from Shields to Tyne-
mouth he found to be 290,231 ; the revenue would be 27,020/, Ss.
3d. The carriage of fish, coals, &c., would amount to 174/. 15s.
4d. The working expenses would be 9941., leaving a net re-
venue, taking other small matters into account. The expenses of
making the extension would be 35,3501. There were a number of
persons who now go by steam who would make use of the railway
if they had the opportunity.
On cross-examination, the witness added that conditional ar.
rangcments had already been made with the landholders for three_
fourths of the land requisite for the works. They would have to
pass through North Shields by a tunnel of 761 yards in length.
Mr. Sergeant WRANG/IAM then addressed the Committee to the
effect that if, for the sake of the branches being made, the best
trunk line is set aside, the most irretrievable injury would follow to

the public The question was, whith of the two lines of which
1 they bad the plans would make the best trunk line. They were'
I aware that there already existed a chain of railway cornmunica.
' tion between London and Edinburgh, passing through the
western parts of England. By this chain the distance would not
be more than 3e9 miles. Tie Board of Trade in their report on
the vase state that the line of eastern communication is not many
miles less than the western. He (Sergeant Wrangham) would
prove that the eastern line would be the longest of the two.
If the line recommended be adopted, the distance from Edin-
burgh to London would be 407 miles. It became then a
mamer of deep moment to the Committee to select the
shortest, quickest, and cheapest mode of communication, and at
the same time to retain to the eastern parts of the kingdom that
advantage which it already possesses. His Learned Friend (Mr.
Hildyard), in opening the case,had stated that it was connected with
the shortening of the line at the south side of Newcastle, and
claimed credit for the fact of his line being in conjunction
with the former ; but he contended that no efficient improvement
coula' be made. The real line to be adopted was, to run
the straight course which had been once sanctioned by Parliament,
and had been laid down by the (heat North of England Company,
and which abridged the distance between Durham and Newcastle
by no less than seven miles. If the Newcastle and Berwick
line be adopted, the other could never be carried out,
as it would be directly opposed to their interests.
If the, improved line of railway called the Northumberland line,
which. was now before the Committee, and denoted by the yellow
line in the map, be adopted, they would have a great saving both
at t tie north and south sides of Newcastle. The Committee had
the test security for the advantage of the scheme of which he
wes the advocate. If the Northumbeland line be adopted, the
direct line through Durham must pay, as a matter of course.
Ohs Ow line which he advocated there would be no level crossings,
as on the other, which would be at the expense cf paying 58/. a
year t 64 watchmen. The distance from Gateshead to Berwick,
accor ding to the proposed line from Newcastle to Berwick, would
be 67 miles, whereas the other line would shorten it by three
miles: and a half, by making it only sixty-three miles.
The Committee should consider the importance of such
line ass regarded the different modes of traction, one being alines-
plicate and the other locomotive. He was surprised that the
Boanxt of Trade, in their report on atmospheric railways, did not
see'll to consider it 211 impoi tam gradient after the successful ex.
Po-intent at Dalkey. The Learned Counsel then entered
auto the superior merits of the atmospheric line, which he
advocated. The loss of power on the atmospheric line
to acquire acceleration, he cc:Mended, was nothing.
whereas the loss of power on a locomotive line was enormous. He
then quoted from Mr. Stephenson's evidence before the Board of
Trade to show that the more frequent the trains on an atmospheric
line, the less would be the loss of power. If it be their interest
to have a number of trains, it must be their interest to carry
the public at as high a rate of speed and as low a rate of fare
as they possibly could arrive at. At what Cost would they
propose to carry the public ? They proposed to have a greater
number of carriages and a greater speed. The speed on the loco_
motive line was to average tiro hours and a half, and they pro-
posed on the atmospheric line to carry them f rem Newcastle to
Berwick in one hour and a half on an average. Now as to cheap-
ness, the locomotive line proposesi to carry first-class passengers for
16s. 6d.—on this atmospheric line they would carry them for half
a guinea. A proportionate comparative reduction would be made
in the second and third classes. Ile believed that there could not
be a more favourable opportunity for confirming the success of the
experiments already tried, and manifesting its advantages to the
world. But if it were thrown out it would be suppressed, and the
public would lose the benefit of it for some time. They had an op-
portunity 'which, if once neglected, would not be recalled.
It was said that this was a mere experiment, and that that should
be a bac to its trial; but surely they had had time to see the ad-
vantages of the Dalkey line. He then alluded to Mr. Stephenson's
evidence, given in I 525, with regard to the velocity of locomotive
engines, when he stated that eight miles an hour would
be sewed which it would be impossible to arrive at. It
was rather too late in the day to treat this as an experiment,
and to put it aside as such in favour of a system itself in its mi-
nority, and not to allow them to enter into competition with the
leer:motive system. He trusted that the Committee would not
treat this as an experiment, but that they would listen to the
evidence of the engineers whom he would call, and judge
from that evidence whether it be not proved to their satisfactis n to
be a practical benefit, and whether the evidence be
such as to satisfy the Comanittee that they should pass the preamble
of this Bill, by which alone a great benefit would be carried out,
and by which the foundation will be made for extending over the
rest of the kingdom the benefits of a system of cheaper and more
rapid communication than any which had as yet been investigated.
Mr. S:amuda being first called, stated on examination that in
1839 he and his father laid down a half-mile of atmospheric rail-
way at Wormwood Scrubs, and worked it successfully. In 1842
an arrangement was entered into between the Government
and themselves to lay down a line of 11 mile in length, from
Kingstown to Haiku. Dalkey was 71 feet higher than Kingstown.
It -eras constructed with a steam-engine fixed at the upper end of
tiae line, and a connexion between that steam-engine and the
pipes, which were used for the purposes of exhaustion. Not having
the Parliamentary power to select the most convenient place of erect-
ing the steam engine, they were obliged to extend the place for th e
engine house to the upper extremity of the line, at the distance of
about one-third of a mile from the spot that would be most fa.
vourable. The witness then entered into an interesting detail
connected with the Dalkey and Kingston Atmospheric Railway.
He estimated that the atmospheric pipe on the Newcastle
and Berwick line would cost 4,3001. per mile. The
electric telegraph would be about 2001. per mile.
"The cost of a pipe per mile, would, with the tele-
graph, amount to 4,500/. They would undertake to take the mail
trains from Newcastle to Berwick in one hour and ten minutes. The
ordinary trains would travel at the speed of forty miles an hour.
By the nature of the arrangements there could be no collision, for DO
two trains could come in opposite directions on the same tube.
There would be no annoyance from fire or sparks, or blow.
ing off of the steam. It would give to the public a much
more commodions and pleasant mode of conveyance than could be
arrived at by the locomotive system. It presented a great advan-
tage with respect to surmounting steep gradients. A locomotive
system had to sub-divide its powers, one portion for itself and the
other for the train, which would be useless. There would not be
such a loss of power on the atmospheric plan.
The examining Counsel having intimated that this evidence
would Occupy some hours, the Committee adjourned.