The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

country we Meet with one great and striking anomaly. The
religion of the gr. at majority of the people of that country
has been for centuries treated by, the State as a hostile reit.
gion.—( Opposition cheers.) Even. yet that has not been
entirely remove l.—( Hear, hear. 1 Civil equality has been
gra• ted to the ;7essian Catholics of both countries. The penal
laws have been removed, or are in process of removal,
still there are traces remaining of that disposition
on the part of the State to which I have referri d,
and these trace: are nowhere more perceptible or more nox-
boss them wh, is they interfere with the education of the people.
Now, Sir, I nave stated this difficulty—a difficulty which has
been clearly ascertained and admitted. It has been the subject
of repeated inquiries—by Commission—by Committees of this
blouse from a very early period since the passing of the Union,
and, in later time', we have net only the advantage of the pre-
cise nature of the difficulty bring ascertained, but we have the far
greater advantage of considerable practical experience of the
mode by which that difficulty may he satisfactorily eneoun-
tered, ant certainly overcome. I will shortly, Sir, refer to
some of the inquiries which have been instituted on
this subject. • In the first place I will refer you—but,
before 1 make re ference to the report to which I shall shortly
advert, I will simply make one observation, that the various
plans for educating the people of Ireland with the aid of Go-
vernment grants which have been made, have gene-
rally faded wherever there has been an interference with
con'cience in matters of religion.—(Hear.) I state th.a
broadly as my oointon. Now, Sir, I would first advert to a very
remarkable inquiry that was instituted by a Commission in P..;,( 6.
I will advert to the report of that Commission, made in the
year 1812. It is important, with reference to the subject to
which it is now my duty to call your attention,
and I hope you will pardon me if I read a few ex-
tracts from .that report, because this report appears
to me to contain the germ of the sound principles
on which the difficulties of establishing a system of national
education in Ireland are to be met, and, also, it contains the
principles on which the measure which I am now about to pro-
pose to you is generally fouuded. The Commission was ap-
pointed in 1806, and its report presented in 1812. I beg the
attention of the House to these remarkable words—" We
have applied our efforts to the forming of a system
which, whilst it will afford the opportunity of educa-
tion to every description of the lower classes of
the people"—io passing, I may observe, that the prin-
ciples on which we stand are not limited to the lower
classes, but are eapatilo of extension to all classes in Ire-
land. The principle is that the proposed systa m
is opeu to every description of the lower classes of the people,
while at the same time, by keeping clear cf all differences with
respect to the particular religious tenets of any, it. will induce
the whole to receive its benefits as one united body, and
under one and the same system and the same establishment.
They then refer more pointedly to the subject in these terme,
" It is of essential importance that there should be new schools
for the education of the lower classes in Ireland, and we ven-

removal on the part of the responsible adviser of the
Crown, shall depend upon the cause which shall be shown.
I would say that it would be well that the princiral
should reside within the walls of the college ; but it
is not intended to provide accummodatioo for either the pro-
fessors or students ; in this respect folio sing the;example of the
universities in Scotland. But, however, there shall be im-
mediate control and supervision exercised over the students
of the college indirectly, and no doubt perfectly satisfactory
to the parents and guardians who etitrud the students to the
care of ~the college, No pi ovision is made for the retidence
of the professors or students within the walls of the col-
lege. Instruction will be given by lecturers, and there
will be daily examinations; for lectures, without con-
t null and searching examination, may be made per-
fectly fruitless, and attended with no benefits. I have
already stated that, consistently wilh the principle upon which
this measure is based, there will be in none of these colleges
endowments for professors of theology ; it is not proposed to
allow anything for that purpose. Religion, however, is not
to be entirely disregarded. It is our intention to propose that
every facility be given for endowment by private benefaction of
professors of theology, subject to the visitorial power of tho Crown.
I think it would be monstrous if any other course should be
taken.--; Hear.) Now, Sir, it is clear that in the colleges in
Cork and in Galway the Roman Catholic students will be a
majority, but I do hope that the Protestant youth of the neigh-
bourhood will attend thoSe colleges and share in the advan-
tages of education in the arts and sciences which can there
be procured. But suppose wealthy Protestant parents should
be anxious to secure for their children attending those col-
leges, that some provision should be made for the education of
those children in the doctrines of the religion held by their
forefathers, by means of private benefactions and-endowments
for securing them religious instruction in the colleges of Cork
and Galway, it would be hard beyond measure if full effect
were not given to these beneficent intentions, and if every
facility were not afforded for carrying them into eff et. We
intend that th's Bill should afford all these fa-

peth. The Eight Hon. Baronet then prime led to read the
extract, which was to the effect that he (Mr. Wyse) trusted he
had placed before his Lordship the true character and bearing
of this case, and the necessity of es'ablishing a series of I re-
vincial co'leges in Ireland, and at the conclusion the Hon.
Member said that " for his part, sensible as he was how very
little attention his opinion was entitled to, still he would say,
that this would be tho great e•t boon that could be left behind
by any Government."—( Hear, hear.) This is the Ho-
nourabla Meinter's opinion on this important ques-
tion, and I fully agree with him. I am decidedly
or opinion that if the House should give its sanction
to this proposition, it will be a measure that toil, be most
favourable to Ireland, in a moral and social point of view,
upon the condition of the people of that c ountry.—(.Hear:)
It will have the effect of increasing order, peace, and virtue in
Ireland, which should be the great objects of all civil govern-
ments.--( Hear, hear.) I was taunted wi h my want of
success in proposing a measure of this sort on a former occasion.
I am aware of my inability, as
an advocate, to deal with a
question of such importance. I call upon the House to give
this measure their general support and co-operation, without
reference to religious or political distinctions that may exist in
Ireland. I have endeavoured to state both fully and fairly the
nature of the measure. I have tilt left out any particle of the
case. I have stated all the difficulties which exist with a strict
sense of justice and propriety. I have nothing more to ray
than to thank the House for the patience with which it has
attended to me, and to move for leave to bring in a Bill to
enable her Majesty to endow colleges for the advancement of
education in Ireland.

u
ino
was
ss
forp osn tohneg
ee t o f her
connected Ia jwe
istthy
The motion being put,
m
l
ti
Mr. WYSE said that he was aware that it would be im-
proper to press upon the attention of the House any observa-
tion, he might be permitted to make a few observations upon
the various parts of the measure which had been submitted to
them. He thought it was unwise and dangerous to the social
'sthGendviesienumsseionnt'obf utht'isaqsuhese-
twinhaats th:lehnis
oiet'
tie The
n a
tmlimprovement
commu-
nity.t
otbaf u
large
rhsegeenpenordueul
ns
cietabnt
letieor
nsosyafgs t
cti
,ehs,
efmi
anl
(elover
teht(ntieuhmke wasold
t.
infinitely superior to that which the country had previously
given to them. Hitherto, the chief obstacle in the way of ex-
tending this system of education was the religious differences
which existed in Ireland, but he was rejoiced to say that
these obstacles were gradually melting
away. ( Iles.r, hear.)
He
considered that, along with elementary schools, there ought
to be intermediate schools between them and the colleges,
somewhat analogous to the grammar schools in this country.
Such schools, if established, would be best calculated to supply
with pupils the proposed universities or colleges. The Go-
vernment had given its assent to 32 model schools for Ireland,
and it would rest with the Board of Education to give to them
proper efficiency, in carrying out the object for which they
were instituted. After alluding to the great necessity of care
being taken, in the educational institutions about to be esta-
blished, that no religious intolerance, or religious sectarianism,
should be allowed to interfere with the primary ends for which
they were instituted, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to show
the importance of giving to these schools an industrial cha-
racter. They ought to be put in possession of a more superior
character in this respect, than any they now had. There
ought to be an organisation in each of the col-
leges, dependant upon the particular localities in which
they were established, and in each of them there should be
be a mining department for training the youth in a knowledge
of the important branches connected with the mineral kingdom,
and through which minim and geological explorations could be
undertaken throughout Ireland. There ought also to be an in-
dustrial museum established in Dublin, in which there could be
collected every kind of specimen, whether mineral or otherwise,
for the information of the student, and under whose superin-
tendence those geological exprditions could be conducted. By
these means the young men could be trained in civil engineering,
and be made to acquire habits of industry, energy, and perse-
verance, and be made conversant with the most useful and im-
portant branches of practical science. Through these arrange-
ments a substantial middle class might be formed in that
country, and a great amount of general good diffused. In ad-
dition to a central museum in Dublin, large museums ought
also to be established in other parts of the country,
not only for the use of the students of the colleges,
but accessible to the inhabitants, in connexion with
which there might be carefully selected libraries. For
these purposes her Majesty's Government should give
buildings and afford the nucleus of each establishment, leaving
their extension and improvement to the liberality of the
public. He would not go into the payment of professors,
though he considered, as those colleges were to be establish-
ments for the public at large, the system of lodging and
boarding should not be allowed to become a system of profit
and abuse on the part of the heads of those establishments.
No observation had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet re-
specting what remedies he intended to be applied against those
who might engage in theological discussion, whether they
were to be placed in the bands of the superiors of the col-
leges, or to proceed direct from the Government itself.
Without some efficient arrangement of this sort, he was satis-
fied the colleges would dwindle into mere places of popular
lecturing, and the Government be under the necessity of
suppressing them altogether, or else entirely remodelling
them. He thought that, ultimately, a greater number of col-
leges ought to be established in the country than the
three proposed at Belfast, Cork, and Galway, though he
considered that number would suffice for the present. He was
of opinion that Galway, Cork, and Belfast, were judiciously
selected as the sites of the three Colleges proposed, but in ad-
dition he considered there should be one established at Dublin.
He did not mean that it should be established in opposition to
the University of Dublin, but as an industrial seminary for the
accommodation of that part of the country. He as a Roman
Catholic, was as pleased at seeing institutions endowed for the
education of Protestants or Presbyterians, as he was at the
support given for the College of Maynooth. His only regret
was, that the sums to be applied for these purposes was not
large enough. With regard to the constitution of these semi-
naries, he should like to see an aggregation of them, something
like to the University of London, which was made up of a num-
ber of colleges, and it might be called the University of Ireland.
He was of opinion that sooner or later such a course would
have to be adopted. With regard to any competition that
might be supposed to arise between this University of lrelsnd
and the University of Dublin, he did not apprehend much fear.
Such competition he considered would not be very successful.
The University of Dublin was an old and much respected semi-
nary of learning, and had a prestige and a name to support it,
which a new institution could not hope to have.
By the Act of 1793, to which theL,Right Hon. Baronet had
referred, the principle had been fully laid down that Trinity
College in Dublin should be opened to both Roman Catho-
licsparties
si t l
and Protestants. The opening of the Dublin University
olv7e
to all
these
present
the
only n
oyf
ment of its fellows, and he saw no reason why this principle
should not
of governmenthep u extendingh
lDublin
was the
under Actthe ogen
f 93
-.
be extended, so that in the ag-
gregation of colleges throughout Ireland their members
should have the power of management. The carrying out
of the proposed principle need give no alarm to Protestants,
Presbyterians, or Roman Catholics, for it would only be carrying
out the intention of the foundation of Elizabeth,which was brought
forward as an act of justice to the Roman'Catholics, for the
educational institutions they had been deprived of at the period
of the Reformation. Trinity College was by no means one of
an exclusively ecclesiastical character, hut it was said May-
nooth was exclusively confined to Catholics, and, therefore, it
was urged that the Dublin University ought to be exclusively
confined to Protestants. His answer, however, to this was,
that the Dublin University was not solely an ecclesiastical
foundation, but it was an ecclesiastical and lay foundation. In
his opinion, therefore, the college ought to be thrown open
alike to Catholics as well as Protestants. Now, he would let
the Dublin University have the control of all those
colleges, and he thought the present state of the
university was favourable to the adoption of such
a plan. The measure of the Government,' if properly
carried out, was highly calculated to draw out the energies of
the people, and give that intellectual tone and temper to their
minds which had been so long wanted. In future years, Go-
vernment might depend upon it, their present policy would
enable the Irish people to contribute to the wealth and in-
fluence of this country, and there could be no doubt this mea.
sure would leave grateful recollections in the minds, if not of
the present race, at least of those who should come after them.
Air. ROSS expressed his great gratification at the state-
ment of the Right Hon. -Baronet, end confessed that it would
go far to remove the differences which had for some time existed
in the College of Belfast. The proposition, he was sure,
would give universal satisfaction to the people of Ireland.
Mr. BELLEW agreed with the Hon. Member for Waterford
that, it was extremely desirable that a second university should
be established sin connexion with Trinity College, for the ad-
mission of persons of all religious denominations, without in-
terfering with the rights of that institution. With respect to
the principle of endowing colleges in the manner proposed by
the Government, he begged to draw the attention of the
House to the opinion of the Catholic clergy on thisy
st subject.
The Catholic ;clergy to a man were opposed to cr State
dovvment as far as they themselves were concerne ,
for nothing
would be more acceptable to them thin endowmentsnot t
education of the people. Government had
Mr. T. B. ROCHE was glad the
brought this measure forward, because it would act as a
safe-
guard against revolutionary outbreaks. He was a repealer,
but nevertheless as much opposed to the undue invasion of
democracy as he was to the undue domination of an aristocracy.
It did not strike his mind that this grant of 18,0001. a year, and
100,0001. was sufficiently comprehensive. It did not go half
far enough. It was not systematic, because there was no con-
necting link between the national system and this collegiate
education. He thought that there should either be a second
university in Dublin, or they should throw open the one which
already existed. It was proposed to establish 32 model rehoole,
but the funds for them were to be taken out of the funds ap-
propriated for the national system of education
for the. This
uca-
was
taking away the funds which were appropriated ed
tion of the poorer classes, in order to give an elementary edu-
cation to the middle classes. But he was ready to acknowledge
that the measure, so far as it went, was one of promise and of
hope for Ireland.--( Hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS said, that though the principle involved
of universal
in the present measure was oneand paramount
importance, he was desirous of hearing the
Members from
Ireland express their opinions upo
n It before he delivered his
own. The principle of the measure was one, however, not
of Irish interests, but.of imperial and national importance.
Did he rightly understand his Right Hon. Friend to say, that
there was to be no distinct religioisulas instruction in the insti-
tutions which in the name of her h jesty he now proposed to
the House ? ( Rear, hear, and c eers.) Those cheers ac-
knowledged the accuracy of his impression. There was then
to be no religious instr • uction in those colleges. He would
Gentleman opposite, who
ask the Right lion. was, perhaps,
better acquainted with the history of
education than any
Member of that House-01r • Wyse)—whether he could
point out a single instance inthe history of England, in
which a national institution connected with education had
been endowed by the State, except upon the principle of an Es-
tablished Church, whether that were the Church of Rome
l Estabished
or the Church of Scotland, or the Episcopacy of this
country ? There was no instance of such an institution which
was not based on religion, which was the great and important
interest of this life, because it was the promise of their eternal
till this 9th
Never of M
happiness in the next.ay, 1845, bad
an attempt been made to such
establish an institution. He
instances •
knew that there were two such
institutions, this country, but
he might call them amateur-m
aissstablished according
individn,
to the peculiar taste of certain
But he
th caros d One of those was
the London University, whi a , indeed, called by an
ether name.—( A lalaugh..)were not instances in
point. Little did he belie
.went,eave y years ago, that a measure
like the present would emanate from the present Govesnment,
or that the principle it involved would receive their sanction.
He knew that his Right Hon. Friend would not sanction such
is own famYt
a principle I il
, and if so, he did not see why he
should adopt it for those who were equally under his controul,
and for whom he (Sir R. Inglis) held that he
was equally responsible.—( Hear, hear.) He did not
even know if moral philosophy was to be taught in those in-
stitutions which were to be established in Ireland; but what
was the value of moral philosophy if not based on:religion ?
A more gigantic scheme of Godless education was never pro-
osed in an country. And was it not the boast, or, at all
events, the distinctive merit claimed for thej measure by his
Right Hon Friend, that those institutions were to be without
the word of God? He would not go into the details of the
measure, because when the principle of the measure was so
bad, the d trails became comparatively unimportant ; but from
r the plaudits with which certain parts of his Right Hon. Friend's
speech were received by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he thought

cilities. Of course there will be no compulsory at-
tendance on these theological instructions, and the
professorships will only be instituted in case there
should bo a sufficient number of students, and a provision made
by benefaction and endowment. The principle equally applies
to the Roman Catholics. I suppo:e and hope that many Roman
Catholic youths will attend the college of Belfast. That college
will be mainly a Presbyterian college, but it would be hard be •
yond measure if the parents of Boman Catholics should not
have every facility afforded them for erecting endowments for
the religious instruction of their children in that college. The
attendance on these theological instructions will, as 1 said be-
fore, not be compulsory. The fundamental principle of this
measure—that upon which I ask for it the sanction of this
!louse—is the avoidance of all interference, positive or negative,
with the religious scruples of the people. That is the principle for
which I contend—that is the principle from which I anticipate
the success of the measure.—( Hear.) I have said that there
were certain circumstances relating to Belfast to which I would
allude. Now, the House will bear in mind, that the acade-
mical institution of Belfast has received the aid of a Parlia-
mentary grant of 2,1(.0/. a year. This for some years past
has been voted in the annual estimates. That institution
was originally founded on the principle for which I contend
as clearly necessary for the founttation of academical institu-
tions in Ireland. That institution is mainly attended by the
Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, and by the Presbyte-
rian youth training for the university in that part of the
country. There are in that institution now four
endowed ministers, as professors of Divinity, nominated, not
by the governing body of the academical institution, but by the
General Assembly of Ulster, in connexion with that circuit..
It would be hard to deprive that body of the benefits they have
now received for a period approaching, I think, to twenty years.
It is not the intention of the Government to deprive the
General Assembly of Ulster of the benefits they have hitherto
enjoyed. It would form no part of this Klan—it wou'd -be in-
consistent with the principles of this Bill to introduce anything
into the particular character of theological endowments, but in
making this statement it is right that. I should inform the
House that it is the intention of the Government, in the annual
votes, to propose the continuance of the endowment of the four
ministers connected with the Presbyterian Church in the
north of Ireland—to continue it not only in the present year,
but they contemplate its continuance in the future estimates of
future years. Now, I cannot speak confidently, but I have
every reason to believe if this measure should be sanctioned by
Parliament, that facility will be given by the academical mana-
gers of the academical institution of Belfast, to transfer their
building and premises, and even their library, on easy terms,
to the Government, for the purpose of founding a college in
the north of Ireland. Of course, if that arrangement should
take place, it would tenet materially to diminish the expense;
at the same time there is an expenditure which I are quite sure
the House would sanction. The professors now serving in
that institution have engagements with the college that they
shall receive the salary voted by Parliament for their lives,unless
they shall be removed on account of misconduct. That is a
bargain with that institution. I think it would be highly in-
convenient, if this institution should be transferred, to limit the
choice of the Crown to these particular professors, because
some of them might be taken and some of them it might be
desirable not to re-appoint, but in case any one of those gen.
tleinen row occupying a situation for life, and not being re-
appointed, I think a provision should be made for ample and
lull compensation. Now, Sir, as relates to the question of
colleges, I am not aware that I have failed to state anything
calcula•ed to make the plan of the Government intelligible to
the House. But I should leave my statement in a
very imperfect condition if I did not, before I sat down, glance
at other great and pecuniary interests. The Bill which I shall
ask leave to introduce does no more than propose to found
colleges in Ireland. But the great question immediately pre-
sents itself, will these three colleges be established as one. uni-
versity, or, following the example of Scotland, shall the
Crown, in the exercise of its prerogative, endow each of these
colleges with the faculty of granting degrees in arts, science,
and medicine ? It is not necessary, nor even expedient, in the
present Bill, or at the present time, to come to a definite ar-
rangement on that point. But I will not, for a moment, be so
far deficient in candour as not to state to the House what my own
judgment is on the matter. I think that the advantages in
favour of a central university preponderate.—( Hear, hear. ) I
think that a central university would be a common arena
where the youth of Ireland may contest, in honest and honour-
able rivalry, for the advantages and emoluments of superior in-
dustry ansi superior attainments. The national character of
such an institution can only be exalted by such rivalry, and it
you had the parts of universities. scattered throughout Ireland,
they would not be this great national institution which I am
anxious they should be. I think, also, that a great. moral effect is
certain of bring produced throughout the youth of Ireland, by
the competition to which I have referred. The youth of Ire-
land, meeting froze their various establishments at a central
point, where they will contend for honours, to be obtained by
great merit and superior attainments, without. any reference to
creed and party distinctions, will produce a most beneficial
effect on their common intercourse in future life, wherever
they meet.—(Hear, hear.) It is impossible for any Gentle-
man in this House, who has been in one of our own universi-

ture to express our unanimous opinion, that no such plan
however wire and unexceptionable in other respects, can be
tarried into effectual execution in this country. unless it is
explicitly avowed, and clearly understood as its leading prin-
ciple, that no attempt shall be made to influence or disturb
the peculiar tenets of any sect or creed."—(Hear, hear.) I
beg to call particular attention to this report, and I repeat it
contains the only sound principle upon which education in
Ireland may be dealt with ; and I again repeat, that it is the
germ of the principle which has been lately carried into
effect in Ireland, and is the principle upon which the mea-
sure lam about to introduce is founded. I beg to call the
attention of the House to the signatures attached to this
report. It is signed by the Primate of Ireland, the Protestant
Primate of that day. !he Archbishop of Cashel, the Protestant
Archbishop of Cashel, the Bishop of Killala, Dr. Ebrington,
and Mr. Leslie Forster. More unexceptionable authorities
there could not be. I now beg leave to call the attention of
the House to the Commission of 1826. The Members who
composed it were Mr. Frankland Lewis, the late Baron Fors-
ter, Mr. Blake, Mr. Glassford, and Mr. Grant. They report,
"that schools should be established for the purpose of giving
to the children of all religious persuasions such useful instruc-
tion as they might severally be capable or desirous of receiving,
without having any grounds to apprehend any interference with
their re'pcctive religious tenets." And then they give their
recommendation, " that religious instruction should be given
to Protestants and Roman Catholics, cot jointly, but sepa-
rately." I will now shortly call the attention of
the House to the repert of a Committee of this House in 1828.
They say that they consulted and referred to the reports of the
te, renntirissiens, front which I have already read extracts,
namely, the commissions of 1612 and 1826. I have the report
of that Committee here, and the several resolutions to which
they came ; but I e ill not detain the House by reading them
at lergth, but will content myselt with giving a summary of
their report in the words of a letter addressed by my Noble
Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), in
1838, to the Duke of Leinster, at the period the National
Board was formed. My Noble Friend gives a summary of
their report in these terms:—" In iB2B, a Committee of the
House, to which was referred the various reports of the Com-
missioners of Education, recommended a system to be adopted
which should afford, if possible, a combined literary, aed se-
parate religious education, and it should be so far adapted to
the views of the religious persuasions which prevailed in Ire-
land as to render it, in truth, a system of na-
tional education for the poorer classes of the community.
In this undertaking, mach must depend en the characters of
the individuals who compose the Board; and, whilst the inte-
rests of religion must not he overlooked, care must be taken not
to interfere with particular and peculiar tenets of Christianity."
This matter was referred to a Committee of the Howe in 1830,
and that Committee reported that they had received much
evidence of imporance on the subject of the education of the
poor. The Committee said they could but hope that no further
time would be lost in giving the public the benefit of the recom-
mendation of the Committees of 1812 and 1825, or the practical
recommendations of the Committees of 1828. In the following
,ear, 1831, the present system of national education for the
poorer classes was established in Ireland. The principle upon
which the report of this Committee was founded, and upon
which that scheme of education rests, is summed up in the re-
port which I have just received, and which I am RIAU to lay
upon the table of this House. It is the report, in the present
year, of the Board of Commissioners of National Education in
Ireland It is stated with brevity but with perfect accuracy
and remarkable clearness " The principle of this Board is
and has been from the beginning, that the national schools
shall be open alike to Christians of all denominations ;
and that no child snail be required to be present at any relie
pious instruction in these schools, if the parents and guar-
dians disapproved of it ; and an opportunity is afforded to all
chrid en to receive sepaeate, and, at particular periods, such
instruction as the parents and guardians provide for them." 1
have now stated to the House the grounds upon which, I say,
that we are furnished with sufficient practical knowledge and
experience to legislate upon the subject. The difficulties have
been ascertained, and the mode in which they are to be met has
been enunciated by high authorities. Possessing this know-
ledge sad this experience, we proceed to the application of
the theory. While it was attempted to educate the people of
Ireland by setting aside those principles, and to connect that
education with an attempt to proselytise and teach exclusive
religious pi iteiples, we failed, although large sums of money
were annually voted. These EI:MS, I repeat, were voted in
vain.--( Hear ) The great body of the people of Ireland did not
partake of this exclusive education. One society, that for
promoting English Protestant schools in Ireland, was established.
And in 1835, the last year in which the Parliamentary grant
was made, 21,0(701. was voted, and yet, in 1831, the total num-
ber of children attending these schools was 2,500. Another
society was established which carried its operations into Ire-
land—the society for discountenancing vice. Up to the year
lee2s, there was an annual vote of the House in favour of this
society, and the last year the grant was 7,5001. In 1824, the
number of schools was 226, and the number of children,
12,769, of which 7,800 were Protestants, and only 4,969 Roman
Catholics. Now, the first and only experiment which had
been made on the opposite principle, and which had been laid
before the Primate of Ireland, was in the year 1812, and that,
I again repeat, was the first and only experiment which had
been made. Let me call the attention of the House to the re-
markable results of that experiment. I shall not go back beyond
the year 1839, but in that year I find that there
were 1581 schools in Ireland, and the number of children was
205,000. I shall pass to the end of the year 1844, when I find
that there were no less than 3,153 schools, and the number of
children attending them amounted to 395,000; thus the House
will see that on this new and improved principle nearly 400,000
children are annually educated in Ireland. Sow, Sir, it has
been said by many persons that this education is almost wholly
confined to the humbler classes, and to obviate this disadvan-
tage, in the proeosid I am about to make I iniend to extend
that education to the higher classes, and so to remove the ob-
jection which is Is been so frequently urged. Owing to the
liberal policy pursued by the French Government, I have the
satisfaction of stating to the House that the National Assembly
have determined to immediately establish schools on ex .etly
the same principle with the proposed system of National Edu-
cation in Ireland. Now, Sir, I have hitherto spoken only of
Leland; but I should present but a very imperfect view of the
question in general, if I should confine your attention exclu-
sively to that country. For a very long period there prevailed
a very general impression that the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, as immediately connected with the Established
Church of the country, should not be opened to all classes of
her Majesty's subjects ; but that exclusive princi-
ple was not found to have the effect intended.
But in these difficulties it was thought expedient, and the Go-
vernment concurred in that, that there should he established

ties, not to remember, with sentiments of esteem and respect,
those with vrhsim we contended, and whose superiority to our-
selves we may have reason to recollect. I do not think you will
secure those valuable effects in any other way with certainty,
except by coming together at one point. I admit that it has
disadvantages also, because there is great difficulty, and I be-
lieve it is inherent in the system, in obtaining sufficient number
of examiners who are accustomed to habits of teaching and
giving lectures. This brings me to the question—if you are to
have a separate university, where should it be?—(. Hear, hear.)
I am bound to say that it you come to the conclusion that there
shall be a central university, that it should be in the metropolis
of Ireland. This at once presents a question of great difficulty
which I am resolved not to blink-4 Hear, hear.) I am of opi-
nion that it is neither wise nor just to allow any interference
with Trinity College as it at present exists.—( Hear, hear,
from the 'Ministerial side.) It is strictly of Protestant forma-
tion. It was founded by Queen Elizabeth avowedly for Pro-
testant purposes. These purposes have been clearly mani-
fested from time to time, and it is from that seminary the
Established Church draws its priesthood. We have encoun-
tered much obloquy and made many painful sacrifices, if not of
friendship, at least of the confidence of many of
our .supporters, by manifesting a desire for the education of
the Roman Catholic priesthood. In proposing a grant to May-
nooth to-night, I announce the intention of the Government.
to continue the annual sum, whereby the Presbyterians of the
north will have an opportunity of educating their priesthood.
I find, I repeat, Trinity College endowed by a Protestant Sove-
reign,: avowedly for the purpose of providing ministers for the
established religion in Ireland; and I cannot, under such cir-
cumstances, think it right that that property should be taken
away or disturbed. It is right that I should inform
the House that Trinity College is so interwoven and
blended by long use and by long possession with Dub-
lin University, that even if it were expedient to
make a severance, it would be found difficult, if not dangerous,
to do so. And, be it remembered, neither that college nor the
Dublin University were exclusively established. In 1793, that
memorable year when the elective franchise was given to the
Roman Catholics—when the Relief Act was passed by the Irish
Parliament, a very singular arrangement took place in reference
to Dublin University. I will read for the House a clause of an
Act which was passed at that time for the relief of Roman Ca.
tholics. After recounting the preamble, the clause went on to
say, " and be it enacted that from and after the first day of
June, 1793, it may not be necessary for any person taking de-
grees usually conferred by said university, to make or subscribe
any declaration, or take any oath, save the oath of al-
legiance." Letters patent were issued by the Sovereign,
cohfirining and extending these privileges to Roman Catho-
lics, Thus Roman Catholics entering Dublin university
could have no scruples in entering those colleges. They
might take degrees in the university, and partake of all its, .ad-
-vataintadgewsh—en(lrlonsai n
ae
ga
er
s, hear," e a r , ' '
cyalalcirtili.seoafdv‘a‘exceptfr certainom en-Ih°' lea' -)
mentary advantages which this university affords. Now, I
have to call the attention of the House to a matter of the
highest importance, I mean the evidence given by Mr. O'Con-
nell before a Committee of their Lordships' House on this very
point, namely, whether it would be desirable that the Queen a
College, which had at first been instituted and intended solely
for Protestants, should be opened to Roman Catholics.—( The
Right Hon. Gentleman then referred to the evidence given by
Mr. O'Connell before a Committee of the House of Lords,
the purport of the answers given by the Honourable
Member for Cork being, that as Trinity College
was intended only for the education of Protestants by
its founders, it would be unfair, if not unjust, to admit Ro-
man Catholics to its privileges. I have not a word mote to
add here.—(Cheers.) This evidence was given before a
Committee of the House of Lords, and it appears to me con-
clusive ou this subject. Now, 1 must say, that the intention to
force on the Protestants of Ireland the admission of Roman
Catholics into the Queen's College, is destructive of their
rights of conscience ; it is imagined by them a violation of
the Constitution—a violation which would spread such an alarm
throughout the while body as would render any measure pro-
posed by Government entirely impracticable ; and, therefore,
it is that the Government do not propose to bring forward
any proposition to this effoct. The subject was brought before
the Irish Parlirment in 1797, and certain resolutions were
adopted, among them was one which I will read to the House.
The Right Hon. Gentleman read the resolution to the House,
which was to the effect that the adoption of a second uni-
versity in Ireland was calculated to do the greatest good in that
country. That question did not, however, arise in the pre-
sent Bill, its only object being to establish three provincial
colleges, and, looking practically to the question, I am disposed
to recommend the measure to the House, as least
open to objection, and practical in execution.—(Hear.)
And now let me say a few words in reference to the Hon.
Member far Waterford.—(Hear, hear.) I do say I would in-
deed but ill discharge my duty if I were not to bear to him
the humble meed of my praise for the part he has taken in re-
ference to this question.—( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member
has persevered in his advocacy of an extended system of educa-
tion in Ireland, in good report and in evil report--( Hear,
heart)—and under circumstances of having against him at one
time an adverse Government ; yet h e did his utmost to give
the measure effect, without permitting the interference of any
ill-feeling towards a Government that did not possess his con-
fidenee.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, a course more high-minded
and honourable than that pursued by the Hon. Member for
Waterford could not have been followed by any man—( Hear,
hear)—and whatever may be the fate of this measure, whether'
it be rejected or not, 1 shall never forget that a large portion
of the merit—if merit it has—is
.duo to the Hon. Member for
Waterford,—( Hear, hear.) I think, also, that some attention
is due to the opinion of the Honourable Member,
for he has attended very carefully to the sub-
ject, and has practically confined himself to the ne-
cessity of establishing
.provincial colleges in Ireland.--
(Hear,bear.) Before I sit down I shall read the opinion of
the Hen. Dlipber, expressed by him in a letter to Lord Mor-

in this metropolis a third University, and in that University no
test is required if teacher or student.—( Hear, hear.) No
religious test either is necessary, in fact there is perfect free-
dom.— ( Hear, hear ) All the Universities were combined in
perfect harmony with the University of London, and I have
given my con. ent to such a University being established in
Carlow.—( Hear, hear.) Well, to pass from England, and to
advert to Scotland ; amid all the religious squabbles that have
taken place, there no test was required. Now, Sir, I have
stated to the House what appears to me the sound principle
that ought to be adopted in the matter, and I have demonstrated
what has been their value and what has been their results.
And really I do say that, considering the experience we have
had of the state of the theoretical sciences, and of society, and
of the different re: _sou, persecutions in Ireland, her Majesty's
Government should have no hesitation in recommending the
establishment and endowment of provincial colleges in Ireland
upon the principles I have stated.—(Hear, hear.) I have now
endeavoured to sketch the outline of the plan, but 1 have said
nothing of the lecality of each university, or of the system of
education to be adopted in the colleges. It would naturally
occur to the mind of any gentleman conversant with the state
of Ireland, that one of the three universities should be esta-
blished in the south of Ireland, but the particular place we have
not fixed Oil. Cork has been spoken ot as an eligible place for
the sou+. Heir. hear.) There is an immense population
in that city, and some very important schools exist there at
pre--ent—( Hear, hear) —to which there is great facility of
access, and it is surrounded by a dense population ; and a very
strong feeling has already been expre,ezd by the people of that
city in favour of extended education.— ( Hear, hear.) On
these grounds, then, I would say, that Cork is naturally the
locality that would be selected for the university for the south.
—( f ear, hear.) Then it is not intended to overlook the
west of Ireland, and therefore either Limerick or Galway
would be selected as the most convenient locality fer the west.
—( hear.) And, then, with respect to the north, it is
a question: whether would Belfast or llert y be the most con-
venient locality for the university for the north.—( Hear.)
think that taking into account all the circumstances con-
nected with Belfast, that-city affords the best facilities for the
northern locality.—(Hear, hear.) Now, of course, we are
not to be Understood as pledging ourselves as to what would be
the precise amount of the expense that would attend the com-
pletion of a proposition of this sort. But I should say that for
the purposes of building, and fitting up, about 30,0001. fur
each university would be sufficient, or about 100,000/. for
building the three. As to the annual expenses of principal
and vice-principals, and president, and prizes, the Government
would recommend for the annual endowment of each 6,0001.,
or, including the 100,0001. for building, the whole expenses
would be about 118,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Each college st ill have ten or twelve professors, who will be
allowed 3001. a-year each ; and especially, both at Cork and
Belfast, there will be medical schools, to which I attach the
greatest importance; and when I say twelve professors, I in-
clude the professors in anatomy, surgery, and pharmacy. It is
our intention, considering that the endowment is 10
be made by the Crown, to propose that the pro-
fessors in all the three colleges shall be nominated by the
Crown ; that the Crown shall have not only the power of nomie
eating, but the power of removing upon cause shown. I have
always said that while we seek to exelude any undue inter-
ference with religious opinions, security must be taken that the
election' Of lecturers 'shall not be thus peculiarly distiia-
Oshed. The circumstances are ouch that the power of

II iii SU N, (TN 1) ON, SA t---(3 RDA Y MORNIN G, MA V 10, 1845.

t on. He said there was no former instance of a State under-
taking the education of a people without connecting with it a
religious system. The Hon. Baronet seemed to have forgotten
the system of national education in Ireland.—( Hear.) The
original plan was often pressed on the attention of the House
by my lion. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse)
to whom the credit of its system belongs, although, until this
evening, I never heard a Minister of the Crown make the ad-
mission. The whole of the plan introduced by the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley) was one
condensation of suggestions thrown out from time to time by
my Hon. Friend, whose reward is 'confined to his own breast,
which might admit of the highest order of reward.—( Hear. )
This system of national education, I repeat, has been sanc-
tioned and established by the Government.—(Sir It. Inglis
gave signs of dissent). Does the Hon. Baronet dispute in the
the teeth of the fact ?
Sir R. INGLIS—(as we understood him)—it was not an
endowment.

Mr. SHEIL—ShaII we dispute about the word "endow-
ment"—shall we go into sophistication, a-.d learned subtleties?
The Hon. Baronet is a member of a scholastic institution, and
brings from it with him distinctions which rather belong to
refined dialectics. There is no real, substantial distinction be-
tween a grant made every year and an endowment, but the
latter has the great advantage of avoiding disputes and contro-
versies, of which we have recently had such lamentable in-
stances.—( Hear, hear.) In one point of view, strange to say,
I coincide with the Hon. Baronet. I mean with respect to the
necessity of religious instruction—l think it is; unfortunate that
the Right Hon Gentleman has not devised some means. I will
yet trust to the ingenuity of the Right Hon. Gentleman to pro-
vide some means by which the reproach may be re-
moved that no religious instruction of any kind is to
be given in these establishments. The object is,
of course, to make this measure acceptable to the great
body cf the people and to those who have great weight
and influence among them, I mean the Roman Catholic priest-
hood, to conciliate whose feelings you are evidently anxious.
The great body of the Roman Catholic priesthood will com-
plain that no means have been adopted for the purpose of con-
veying religious instruction in those colleges, and my Hon.
Friend made, I think, a very useful suggestion that, hereafter,
individuals might be allowed to grant, for the purpose of en-
dowing a chair of divinity, if they thought proper. The sug-
gestion seemed to have been adopted by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, but such a matter ought not to be left, I will not
say to caprice, but to the casual discretion, respecting the ex-
ercise of which we cannot with any confidence predicate. I
tell you that the Roman Catholic clergy will object to your
plan on this ground. I have here a pamphlet, written by a
gentleman of high talents, a personal friend of my own, who is
professor in the Catholic College of Thurles, which was esta-
blished by a Roman Catholic Archbishop, who bequeathed to
it 20,000 L, which he earned hard in the seminary of Ulver-
stone in this country. Dr. Lahey is the author of the pamphlet
to which I allude—the ablest man in the college. He is of opi-
nion that there ought to be a separate system of education
where practicable, but he says a " mixed system of education is
better than none, but with a mixed cyst, mof education, reli-
gious instruction is compatible." Religious instruction
is given to the lower classes in Ireland under the
present system of education there. Roman Catholic priests
attend at the schools for the purpose of giving religious instruc-
tion, and Protestant clergymen are likewise at liberty to do se.
Certain houses are there allocated for the purposes of religious
instruction, and every facility is offered to those who attend to
administer such instruction. I should think the same facilities
ought to be given here—( Hear, hear, from Sir J. Graham)—
and that it should be made imperative on those in the establish-
ments to attend some place of religious worship.—(No, no.) I
can see no objection. I think it is a very reasonable request.
You may say you cannot apply the public money to religious
education, and I admit that difficulties have been thrown in the
way of such a proposition on a late occasion which may well
discourage any Government. But a middle course may be
adopted, and I should very much regret that no religious in-
struction was to be given in those colleges. 1 think the Ca-
tholic bishops in their particular districts ought to see that re-
ligious instruction was given to those members of his faith who
were in that college. lam sure it would be his duty, and I see
no sort_of reason why he should not.
_ _

' that his Right Hi n. Friend the Member for the University of
Dublin had reason to apprehend that it would shake the foun-
d Akins of that Protestant University. V ben th Right Hon.
Gentleman referred to the opinions of Mr, O'Connell, he
heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Memb tr for Dungar-
von (Mr. Shiel ) say, in an a. dibio whisper, that this was
long ago, and though he admitted th t opinions might and
ought to change—( Hear)—yet in opinion like that quoted by
hi, Right Hon. F. iend, h ill, indeed, was more a prom's?
that he would u•e no influence to disturb that insti-
tntim, than an oyi i in—on;ht not to be all wed.—; Hear.)
they had always depreca'ed those loose principles of educa-
tion. He entirely differed from the measure of the Govern-
ment—he never could consent to make himself a party to mea-
sures of such a character. He believed the present measure
t i be founded on an absolute disregard of those principles which
they had hitherto cherished. He believed the measure to be
subversive of the best interests of Christianity. Never till now
had they been called upon to provide a system of education
not only without religion, but throwing religion entirely over-
board. He did not, however, feel himself called upon to
divide the House on the present occasion ; but he would, on a
subsequent stage, raise his voice, if it were to be a solitary
one, against a Bill, the very foundation and principles of which
he believed to he defective.

Mr. S HEIL then ruse and said—Sir, the Hon. Baronet
who has just sat down called it " a gigantic scheme of God-
less education," a phrase which certainly has been
more unscrupulously used than almost any o, her,
and which seems much misapplied as regards the proposition of
the Government to establish in Ireland these colleges for the
instruction of the higher and middle classes there. I thought
that the clear and perspicuous statement of the Hnn Gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which he
referred the disastrous failure of every attempt to propagate in
Ireland education on the exclusive principles of the religion of
the Church of England, must Live (o.lv:nced the Hon. Baronet
that in this experiment it was useless to persevere. If any-
thing could be made perceptible to the mind of the Hon. Gen-
tieman—if anything could force conviction on his mind, and
even in despite of the inveteracy with which he cherishes his
opinions—these notorious facts would have forced that convic-

Sir J. GRAHANi—There is nothing to prevent them.
Mr. SHELL—I own that I desire that means were taken to
enforce it.—(No, no.) Well, I am anxious that pair plan
should succeed, though I see much in it that is imperfect. I
am anxious, for that purpose, to take means to conciliate those
who have paramount influence in Ireland.—(Hear, hear. )
You made great mistakes about the Charitable Bequests Bill—
mistakes which I foresaw and warned you of. I told vou you
committed a great error in not consulting the Boman Catholic
Bishops. You consulted them on the Maynooth Bill, and You
succeeded. I now warn you again, that you must obtain their
support to make this plan work efficiently. Having said thus
much with respect to apart of the plan, I cannot help expres-
sing my regret that the present condition of the University of
Dublin is not modified. The Right Hon. Baronet has not told
us whether he intends to affiliate the proposed colleges with the
Dublin University. He referred to the 23d sect. of the Act
by which fellowships were reserved exclusively for Protestants ;
but there is a very important section in that Act, to which I
will call the attention of the House, which has not been di-
rected to it. The Act contains an express provision
that there may be another college subsequently founded in
connexion with Dublin College. A distinction must be ob-
served between Dublin College and Dublin University. The
Act of 1793, I say, provides that another college may be esta-
blished in connexion with the Dublin one, which ether was to
form a part of it. Thus we may see, at once, that in 179:3,
when Roman Catholics were less powerful than they are now,
that even then it was contemplated to establish a college to
which Roman Catholics and Protestants should hare ready
access, and which would be placed in conjunction with Trinity
College. Trinity College, Dublin, as it at present stands, is
a great obstruction in the way of carry ing out a just, equitable,
and liberal policy towards the people of Ireland. The Right
Hon. Baronet adverted to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell ;
but it must be recollected that that evidence was given under
a very different state of circumstances to those which at pre-
sent exist—when the Irish Catholics were treating for a re-
moval of the disabilities which affected them. At the very
same time that this evidence had been given, it
was proposed by Lord Francis Egerton to endow
the Roman Catholic priesthood, and if this had
been then done, the Protestant university would have been
allowed to remain undisturbed. You should not now refer
to statements which were only made conditionally.—( Hear.)
You did not enter into any contract with us. The Right lion.
Baronet at the head of the Government distinctly declared
he would enter into no compact with Roman Catholics. But
might you not open Trinity College as a great national
establishment without incurring the evils you apprehend. You
think it would not be consistent with justice or policy to do
so. I think it is not consistent with justice or policy to close it.
Remember that you leave Trinity College in the enjoyment of
permanent and predominant advantages. Its possessions are very
large. The fellows of that college raise each about 2;0001. a
year, and they have a high social position, as well from their
great acquirements, as from their ample emoluments. It sends
two Members to Parliament, and, in short, enjoys many other
advantages above any other institution. Now, as long as it
is thus predominant, for so long you cannot expect the Cat ho-
lie people will be reconciled to it. I know you will tell me
that the interests of the Established Church require that it
should be in some respects exclusively Protestant. How un-
fortunate it is that whenever a project for the amelioration
of the country is devised, the Church Establishment
must be flung in its way—( Bear, hear)—and encounter the
projector at every step. There can Ite no doubt but these fel-
lowships would be eagerly struggled for by Catholici if they
were open to them—that they are in the road to the highest
promotion, and yet in what connexion (properly speaking) with
the Ecclesiastical department ?—( Hear, hear.) \Vhen Roman
Catholics are admitted to universities, they should be allowed
to reach the acme of their honours, their dignities, and their
emoluments—they should be allowed to pluck the golden
fruits which grow on the tree of knowledge.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear. ') There existed a system in that college
with respect to scholarships, which is every way worthy of
condemnation. A Roman Catholic enters as a sizar, and ob-
tains the prizes in science and the classics. After two years'
study, he can only become a candidate for a scholarship by re-
linquishing his faith, which many, I regret to say, have done
from sordid motives, and afterwards relapsed into open infi-
delity. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) told the
Recorder for Dublin, a few nights ago, that ascendancy in
Ireland was at an end ; but Trinity College, as it now
stood, was an odious monument of ascendancy.—( Hear.)
If they leave Trinity College as it stands, they leave it be-
cause of its ascendancy, and I shall ask the Government if
it will be wise, if it will be politic, to do this alter the
Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home Department has
told them that the future Government of Ireland cannot be
conducted on the same principle? What I should now wish
to see is this, an equality between those professing Roman
Catholic principles and the Protestants of Ireland. While I
thus object to the Government policy in detail, I cannot ob-
ject to the general principle which they pursue, because I
think it calculated to induce a more friendly feeling between
the countries. I cannot, under these circumstances, with-
hold my meed of praise from the Government measure as
far as it goes.
Sir R. -PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman bad neither,
by his speech or his intended vote, removed his impression of
the course
he had pursued in 1835, when he (Sir R. Peel)
had
said
that the chief difficulty of his Government i ested
with Ireland. Tfie Right Hon. Baronet had not certainly
done much to remove tnat impression from his ( Sir R. Peel's)
mind, when he found the Right Hon. Member for Dungar-
von prepared to vote with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Oxford, in his opposition to a measure which was intended
as one of justice to the people of Ireland. In addressing him-
self, in the first place, to the observations which had fallen
Loin the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford
(Sir R. H. Inglis), he felt it might be asked, what was in-
tended by the term " educational instruction ?" They
had already provided ample means for the instruc-
tion of the poorer classes of Ireland, fur, as his Right
Honourable Friend the Secretary for the Home Department
had informed them that they had educated about 400,000 of
the children of the poorer classes in Ireland. But they found
that in Ireland there was not the same amount of academical in •
struction which they had in Scotland—a country with only one-
third of the population. In Scotland they had five institutions
for educational purposes, but in Ireland there were no such ad-
vantages. They had, indeed, two establishments for the pur-
poses of secular and religious education—the one, Trinity Col-
lege, Dublin, and the ether the much-vilified Maynooth Col-
lege. In no other instance did any institution exist in Ireland
for the purposes of affording such instruction as might be en-
couraged. by the State. The Government proposed to supply
that omission, but it must be remembered that they had to deal