The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-14 00:00:00

' 'll
4)04.. "7"....'n."..""............................... ISkteir.llMit.m..... 110 /lir),
o'APons which were opposed by the feelings of the greater
Afr.g_t the whole community.
little k;GLQUHOUN • ''•
oon this . - said that he should have said but
the Roe. DI
question had it not been for the last words which
j5ei,,,,,"0
d-leitiaber had uttered. This question had been sub-
!heiti;Vis
.iseussion during several weeks, and he had now come
e soi,r:_t_°Fule protest against a measure which had received
t.tlserse."„ast
ef the community at large, and yet stating that he
lion. Al_rr, ntati.ve of the whole people of Ireland. The
hood,
.7,tner desired this measure for his own neighb.iur-
ern.
014471 stated that he was a member of the Committee
11).48'44
aia.lle Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse) had
Chs had pooh" Y whom the resolution for those very institu-
-4"4 thepassed yet he came down to the House via a „o, last moment to set aside the resolution to which he
Wsierio__,stY• He came to set aside the Hon. Member for
SAla meaaro..,. and all the other Members of the Committee on
tity dire, and assuming the position of dictator, or. rather,
411 that ha,t.ltrir--( Hear, hear, and a laugh )—sought to undo
feraeniatiop"rto had been &rte. He came fresh from the
, !Ise, h t-call, where, haveig abandoned his duty in that
wnea.....( aided in promoting that most mischievous asi-
Zireeio-,: Headtea, hear)—which set destrot ing the capital. and
se (mrg best interests of the country..._( Hear, hear. )
gde,, ' Colquhoun) would now turn to the question' which
lc ell' t° Put t
05,
here,-. „_ o the Right Hon. Bar net at the head of
~, a ~,,,epatment. He referred only to one clause,
leo Mstisotio . -
did s "lo not desire to raise a debate upon it. The old 1
atittal• tated that s• e .
o student of, each or any of the aca-cle-
v. to atten., ns should be cotnpe,led by any rule of the col-
Zger than " anY theological lecture or religious instruction
elfliaschsostse which should be approved of by his patents
llasiotat', (Isaes,' He (11Ir. Colquhoun) could not clearly un-
„er
ututid there was a doubt whether the students at
or s should attend any religious instruction what-
not
(no'
Itit e • ,ARAM said that the words had been inserted
Novo ivies, to
lop 0000
re make the clause as precise as possible. There
sa Nereeee gelation imposed by the Bill, for the object was
1141 Prof:ss:4" as
free
as
possible. But it was quite open
ec,„sseaso,e,rs and other authorities of the college to make Os go:111.h would be of force after they had been submitted
71,,401,%7 So that each college could make its own re-
-1 11'. Al
Ila GIBSON
11„, lh eats protested against any Member presuming
tr'llits other for taking the particular course which he
the eest. To .
Ite ill, an, his view this was the most important stage
/foraostd„,e L,' the one is which he individually as a Member
0 sins evilly interested. What was it they were going to
S y the in
lity colleaas, oney of the country for—the establishment of
asseihrtietd.: We are not going to appropriate the money of
tie tlbeso,s`f Party. We are going to appropriate the
1e5...•"-(He"ging to the general revenue of the United King-
ift't Paetl) He was beset by various opinions from dif-
-111t„told h-',: en the subject of collegiate education. He had
iserth'...several individuals that it was very questionable
izt whies'lidowment of these colleges would accomplish the
4 Zeorport".was contemplated. It had been contended that
tit tZth sa,;! establishments were places in which ignorance
!tu`'at he'llgt and wickedness inculcated, rather than encou•
theellitt ,ing given to learning and morality; but he would
tst 1„,..Nt h..'°.:l these establishments the advancement of ale,learn-
-le,hr, apected ; there was, however, one point in the
tilkte.en appeared to him susceptible of improvement.
keet,'4e e,,,,Nfficient to ut rofessors into the different chairs
1 'Nfa-'ege •
i re, ,v with independent incomes, without some
Nish_fes t°haeld move stringent inducements to exert them-
SZak
t, good of their pupils. He considered
itt ;‘l'ily ao°llldmake any strenuous exertions without being
lVfehos °Veiled to do so ; and therefore he thought
petop: s, with comfortable incomes, who were totally
at Who wereuPport from their pupils, were not the
,tOtig theta likely to he very active in promoting learn-
1s ti pfat- He vvould have wished to have seen them
4 ale% Y with salaries from the State, and partly with
11•1%,Stict ve apt°e_h‘e derived from their pupils. Without this
I+4..alid dam 4, to exertion, they would relapse into mere
y,oletheibriFlge professors. They would only remember
Lltis.sate t„'
Portagessalari to receive, and would forget that they
117% NI, " ~,,4 Hear, hear. ) There was one point
,Itito,ottte°,; Pill, which provided that the Civil Government
h„_40)11.4 soauld interfere with the administration of the
:414,3! kit If the Civil Government should persevere in
14tZt ihat:l3'l_doWment the mere instrument of priestly power
Nll4 isahs_e, it would never be possible to achieve any per-
tkt Lent in the progress of learning. Priests
Ot okuaeae allowed to interfere with the teaching of
Ole 'ea leitatical philosophy, and secular things. There
he, , uere they adinister their duties—there
tit,lsf,ilsoLley gitiow_hoich theirconsolation might be given. There
t. jaste've,ao,,,t urable Gentlemen who were adverse to him
17'4 ..41a nts opinion was that a priest or a clergyman was
tilll44l4td of the first, who ought to control edues
IN %%ion ore the part that his Hoe. Friend had taken in
Lll,ei,,..l4.o44l.l44tattujoafdutirctiltninotne,he regtetted to hear him give counte-
position that they could not teach
"ch j„ heti. n without mixing it at the same time with
rfas-irkhste..a!!tion. He could not see why they could not
IZlt'ssitiOff stel;e9 or astronomy without making it the medium
to. osßi Ikea
fogious truth. He regretted that he had occu-
Olltiak to Me Rouse so long, and he sat down express•ng
lt, O. eZeiode all religious interference with secular
e.„NNn
ess. , Rhin -,N, SMITH wished to know from the Speaker.
tOrisald g his support to the resolution on the present oc-
-I,t ts Asittreclude him from opposing it at a future period ?
111iatql,Pele, GRAHAM theuglat that it did not preclude
tOolvereal from rejecting any clause introduced into the
.3,l.lolidat.lee He only knew that no larger sum from
Os tliepey" rund could be proposed. He did not know
t,,, spt-,i, was any power of reducing it.
lON the kER said that it depended entirely en the Corn-
Oh Rill it •
t et e. to reject or not. The Committee on the
Oft; ttotliinei reject the clause or reduce the amount.
1 lltietthe 4 UCK
ofthought that this was peculiarly
aallquuwees,-
4s* rinse Commons, and it ought not to be
i •Ifikt that Merely private. It could not be doubted . for af
/',flt• If that was the time for discussing the principle e
1 I,,,ati' e wanted to discover the wisdom of the House,
elotiaitislhitp°l•lf the present occasion, for he found a proposition
ll.,ttie allowed to pass in silence, might be turned
tlis,"%..aftersyards, and it. might he said that they had
%Vals iis tie took it that religion should be mixed up with
o dhoketesae.ll as anything else. It was one of the means by
lettlaot:i sahlatends might be directed to action. A great deal
e °a• et of %la Conciliation-hall about the Bill, and about the
041 t ke,zt. House in regard to Ireland generally. The
eteao:ks-i:!AZ' Limerick (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) had ac-
ft bl q•l'4, of neglecting the intt rests of Ireland.—
to hs-411, to ale had, in his addresses at Conciliation-hall,
!till, done, through the instrumentality of
Ile:: tae tee' latveZthe intellect of Ireland. How this was
',kr,' „,-' oek. ''‘'aiot -1 he (Mr. Roebuck) could not conceive,
‘tirmathe ') It al scientific knowledge was to do that.-
410 ,41'ithe,raaties Zits proposed to teach the students surgery
ad gob -",etie: ''`'d also, he presumed, chemistry, geology,
tpZ(!.O-'llere'herYet his, according to
intellectthe language of
of Ire-
N1,14:::Itio,, eriesa vv!s, to Corrupt the,,
4tt Obserlatciaaii
only
b‘ Hears,dchnesar.a
ca
1 trap to attract
and cheers.) Such
h'itists) 7.l,llNepti;arld by tehomse who were afraid that good
r
11%, so ale eh an end to their selfish agitation.—(Hear,
Ito
se ophhle see o
Paid attention to the proceedings of these
IN lateil ° ask what value was to be attached to the words
1 :ili ect ned that t'02114 , (if /,. , the measure was intended to corrupt
-hk,:44,7ade h.e.ind. This was a true sample of the
•' ti -8e of against thepeople of England, and
%I. tit' °llBe. This . ri against those who
es. 14a. Is ed . is cry was raise-
Voje,`Pirjt eannilar measures in that House, at a time
,ilttas. Lig te clot just and honourable conciliation, they were
VNI NT hsti° what, he admitted, had not previously been
Seil, re* ofY,and fairly towards Ireland.—( Hear, 'near.)
fetal, the t• tßat House had laid aside religious feelings,
1),..,i mkt
~,eta,(l4.:)f.their constituencies in supporting mea-
Ole: atte liare iulo yet, in the face of this, they were
.‘o4se,l'aPtin° of improper motives—( Hear, hear)—
Nte 7......0f to corrupt the intellect of the people of
,tstilshaf snoeear, hear.) He would ask what could be
;It ) ~stio,,e.l What the intellects of those parties who
Ai titt„tteh';,,sred such a proposition ?—( Hear, hear, and
ttSt°lltaZed th•qtthe highest respect for those Irish Members
ottfils:tlitcell of House to assist them in the examinationd
17t p tstd,greetls.e_srt.l,9ns affecting Ireland.. .He honoured
ot
,tiort_uiß the*,c_ ince they had made. .m.doing their dui
y
k* 4101 to, t_ brow-beating and intimidation that had
~:s that
.;,,deter them—brit he could not understand
111::1C'elliati,!ok certain Members at one moment to the
ilsactttry, o"ol-hall,to excite national animosities, narrow-
f„ m,,,..Nigb, jar prejudice, and to spit their venom
.be-
IN till
tie to
thneinselves secure, attributing every im-
Nieto% which House. and then coming over here to
to 4_ d 01_ had gained them so much approbation
ma sot ,it e_ , eera.
1 hat ftlerstand) Tahi, was. a course. of proceeding. which
be hard to justify.
Yll/:Ss "dersta ' " which it would
tAte , softer
~. ,nd !hat the Hon. Member to whom. he
01,0 ter the less it were to excite the base passions of
tr2l,.i.,;.eoiiitt P,Q Pose of selfish gain.—(H.ear, hear.)
.19n
k,..sZther.rhe!co,7 understand the proc.eedings at Cone' la-
Ols"et foi eed„Z nut see the necessity of such proceed-
IS,,tsh r the -1° of the people. He had shown no want
stt!teol'Ort toee Was sonre:Ptlhe of Ireland in the observations he had
.it the athre b e people of that country would under-
It 46 Peser 3,', and by. He was willing to rest the mea-
Vt_ 4. ;:,,sethoho,t,.ruth. Let them do their duty, and their
tilt,''urgeuL rear or affection. to educate the people of
41 kers , bed
% a ,0,,,, Zof the people of that country would,
ttotsflitl slhee 't° them in a becoming spirit. If they
cre 14 a l'e desirfe
ktoinddonje•usss,tlytotloewraatriclons the Irish people,
%Nom
atierrit o
and 'goodness,
1a.,44, Ztaatheeir he:easures as the present, they would not
VI te,4lll,Pirjo7 sympathy, but soon witness the last
ist..‘ Nart 13,Lb,,action.—( Loud cheers: )
tii,ol-90 1,, that h:',',EN said that, considering the very per-
s, t,- to heads in " been made upon himself, he wished to
ittAt 'absh„ vindication. The Hon. Member had
ltsilltottlt., Isiti "11 the subject the concentrated venom of
(k4Ntl;.l44lll!etalbetrS_r.°se, to order. He did not. object to
oly
toekt: to
pverinnidlictatieg himself,l butoncothnseldHeroend.
and
juastperskonena attack
hiktheteh°
o had
An opportunity ought
Ilk!,I141101,48eut., twoettlilthe..H..osnp.eMem. b. er for Limerick of de-
hit tollti on
aho (Sir R. Inglis) thought the present
IN th,vrahapAL wo "(1 not he allowed.—( Hear.)
Vet ha, for 1., old call the House to the question. The
lc Is% kids' of pso`ta,eriek had no doubt acted as he had done
klisehtttass he ha_rt,ce in speaking in that house, and the
4 i,lt a 2) 11 I,acquired at Conciliation-hall.—( Hear,
*IV the e Member was proceeding to address
%at Atshiequestio
ki,
\t „., ..,N _„_a, when he was interrupted by
k 1,4-,lr wa; w_ jto rose to a question of order. If the
h 'Ptak in pos_cliSposed of, then the Hon. Member for
V, ',,s,Ohtli titession of the House, and no other had a
itikkioltzz;_rieettof
,a,4ollrdt.,,Ganedntleman had given his ex-
-44004 otilet aaid
as
" Chair, chair."
N , h an f ivthe House was not in Committee,
s. 6' )4 at h k Ir. s , •
1.14'411444 torn„ . • 0 O'Brien) had a right to speak in
~,,k k isk, r „ right to reply. He considered that
'1 tojlta,/, the 11 Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis) was jus-
t kook, rLIs r•n' Member for Limerick to order. 1 of Ye.% aaid he h
Itt;4.il hires !Ise the ad only called the Hon. Gentle-
.li, i ,41,,,e,if, h,
_course he was taking was not a yin-
ks4', ;/ tWeltii 14:
_ pe.rsonal attack upon another party..
s,. dm 1143, °nee. "abet the Hon. Memberfor Limerick
hrt'o tt7ellities.444l sue
eery
hen: inlf teerayted a course which would get rid
e'igerrkh-eru,,ouse was allowed to go into Com-
tqh4sithee,s(ils.na of
)nicking
Limerick would then have an
lit'at ir'f-)ViLlear. any statement he might think
, Nttiitsts No Ist! YtiZti..l3tiliaated that he would ostone his mo.
A 41, few‘forwar!, Uollege till Monday next,as it could
Nt 4 'ttelf • Were convenient' •
stltivlb into_ 3 from , lat the present time.
t,..,ssAti.e %tool. Lord J. RUSSELL, the House
lik 6 iti'l at i.e
then Itt" of 'Supply.
tstes siotr4rie.ecf the r,_ moved that the sum of 100,6001. be
10%. -7leinie,,ve,onsolidated Fund for the founding and
glll7. 'Om fo'r•ttpstitutions in Ireland, and 21,0001.
‘tfa''' 4it stp,g4.eati_ " annual endowment of the sad in-
tLths I% 411111,1ein t
3•ltlt•stk:atlitit 114 IN" •
ts.Ahinttd„thent, h_ said the House bad listened, not
ths„7tholi ot;:ng terms approbation, to invectives couched
ietk sathif kid C 5 and directed against his person
kN6444 -sells, action earned Member to whom he referred,
hlask.obschZneoeti°ofed.jael,irati:ging his accumulated venom
attacke saree gnenn hime m
elf had
ra. I sso.,
it.lst lig, 41111k:4°1h imrnadt co taskan
)411.10.6
tcll's,. tt. t
(" in e
Wen f:er
wwash at
nothe
thereil ad
tsntadteefdenind
4;4ltts,tilceertaattleinksiltliettnh) had not come there with a
.at Hon. and Learned Gentle-
`airtefer
of in that House he had always
a gentleman—(Cheera)—and

never receded from the expression of his opinions of a bad mea•
sure, or shrunk from the declaration of his sentiments ; yet, in
doing so, he had always avoided doing anything that would give
pain to individuals.—( Hear, hear.) That though he had
never uttered anything that could give pain, he could not, on
the present occasion, avoid expressing his unutterable contempt
and intense pity for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
made the attack.
Sir R INGLIS asked whether any Member of that House
was justified in using such an expression as unutterable con-
tempt" towards another Member ? The elements of that ex-
pression were such as applied to a person, and could not he
admitted.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN would settle the matter by abandoning
the expressions he had used. He had no personal enmity to
any Member of the House, or to the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Bath Put at the same time he would say, that the
words which that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had attributed
to him (Mr. S. O'Brien), as having been spoken at Concilia-
tion-halt, had never been uttered by him there. The lan-
guage he had male use of was, that he would not attend Par-
liament, unless his &doe so would be the means of doing good
to his country. He had never said that he would not attend
this House under any sirc.anstanses. What he said was with
the qualification he had just stated to the House. He had, he
admitted, expressed an opinion that Members would best serve
the interests of Ireland by staying in that country, instead of
attending the House of Commons The Honourable and
Learned Member had represented Conciliation-hall as
a scene of corruption, and that those who attended
there did so from selfish and improper motives ; but
he (Mr. S. O'Brien) would tell that Hon. arid Learned
Gentlemen that the probity and propriety of all who attended
there, and were concerned in its proceedings, were such as
would contrast with the best-conducted assemblies in this coun-
try. He would speak mere especially of the humble classes,
with respect to whose conduct he prided himself, for its
superiority, as compared with the proceedings of similar bodies
of men in this country. Another Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had, along with himself (Mr. Smith O'Brien) been
attacked, who was much better able to defend himself than he
was ; but to that attack he would only answer, that that Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) had given up a most
lucrative practice and the most profitable sources of income,
that he might devote himself to the interests of his country.
To attack the motives of such a man, whose whole life was
devoted to the arduous duty of obtaining justice for the poople
of Ireland, could only be the suggestions of a low and grovel-
ling mind. —( Hear, hear.) He repeated what he had already
stated, that if this Bill was permitted to pass in its present
form, it would give the Government the power of appointing,
as professors, parties from out of families whom they ( the
Government) considered most adapted to serve their political
purposes. The Bill placed the whole power in the hands of
the Government; and, while it did so, he maintained it was
an attempt to corrupt the intellect of Ireland.—( Hear. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department for an
explanation on two points in reference to the proposed vote.
The one was, why the proposition of 18,000/. had been raised
to 21,00 A ? and the other was, whether any alteration was
contemplated in the mode of appointing the professors ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said the amendments contemplated would
he thought meet the objections of the Noble Lord. He could
assure the Noble Lord that there was every disposition on the
part of the Government to make the measures palatable. On
Monday he would fully explain the nature of those amend-
ments. 21,000/. a year was the vote proposed for the three
colleges instead of 18,t100/. a year as originally proposed. On
Monday he would likewise explain the views of the Govern-
ment with respect to the appointment of professors.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to an additional grant of 3,0001.
a year unless the application of the money was previously
clearly defined. It was not his wish to offer any opposition to
the measure but the Government should not ask them to legis-
late in the dark.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, in accordance with what he
conceived to be the opinion of the House, he had proposed the
additional grant of 1,0001. a year to each college, for the
purpose of granting prizes and exhibitions.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that it was quite true they
were asked to legislate in the dark, and these colleges might
turn out to be nurseries for rebellion and agitation, for any
thing,they knew to the contrary, or anything that had been
stated to the House by the Government. In fact, it did not
appear for whose benefit the measure was intended. Hitherto,
upon the question of education, the House seemed anxious to
educate the poor, but now the measure seemed designed
for the higher classes, for he doubted that the middle classes
could send their children to these expensive colleges. He
thought that if the people of Ireland were really anxious for
educating their children, he did not see why they should not
contribute towards such an object, and pay for the support of
those seminaries out of the county rates.
Sir R. PEEL said that if it were the wish of the House to
carry out this measure they should not dispute about the mode
in which the money was obtained. Grand juries were not in
Ireland always the representatives of public opinion, and it
was clear that a difference of opinion among grand juries as to
granting the money would render the measure wholly nugatory.
Mr. WYSE diffored entirely from the course taken by the
Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. V. Smith) and thought the
mode of supporting the colleges suggested by him could not be
carried out. The ,ight Hon. Baronet was well aware that there
were many institutions in I eland, but they are compulsory by
the grand jury. And inasmuch as they had compulsory as.
sessments he thought that there ought to be some control over
the parties by whom the assessments were made. He objected
to any assessment by Inelies which are not elected by the
people, but as they bad such endowments, they could not do
better than to supervise the mode in which those assessments
were applied. He would have wished that it should have been
otherwise, hut seeing the difficulty of getting any money from
that House, he had been obliged to decline carrying his propo-
sition further. He had proposed that there should be thirty•
two county colleges, which should have their funds made good
by the country, and that they should be connected with the
University of London. They would thereby have the elemen-
tary schools, the more advanced seminaries, and then the
county colleges intermediate between them and the University,
and this last might be the crowning of the whole edifice. By
this plan they would have as perfect a means of education in
Ireland as in any other country. He was not so unreasonable
or so unjust as to complain that the whole of this plan was not
carried out. His system would have given a continuous, analo-
gous, and well-founded course of education, but he could not
regret that it was not at all adopted. It might be better to go
step by step. The country might not be able to bear it ; and, at
any rate, there was a great advance; and he should, therefore,
rejoice in its adoption, and lament if there was any indisposition
to receive it by the Irish people.
Mr. P. BORTH WICK said that the Hon. Member, who
had just sat down, had stated that such a system of education
as he had described existed in Germany, but he had not been
able to find it. Nevertheless, he would most willingly vote for
the establishment of these colleges, and thought it a measure
worthy of a great Government, and adapted to the necessities
of a great people.
Sir D. NORREYS wished to know whether it was still pro-
posed by the Government to prevent any religious test in these
colleges or not.

Lord J. RUSSELL advised Members on his side of the
House, who had amendments or questions to propose, to defer
further discussion on the Bill till Monday next, when a more
favourable opportunity would be afforded for investigating the
subject.
Sir T. D. ACLAND having tendered his approval of the
vote,

The resolution vraq put and carried.
THE MEDICAL BILL.

Mr. BERNAL I.ieWedt;asktieSecret;ry of State for the
Hume Department, whether the clause of the Medical Bill re-
lating to druggists would interfere with the previous enact-
ments affecting that profession.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that the Medical Bill
would repeal such provisions of the Apothecaries Act as inter-
fered with its subsequent enactments.
&ir GEORGE COCKBURN, in answer to a question put
by the Hon. Member for Marylebane a few nights since, stated
that the Admiralty were guided by the regulations respecting
the grant of pensions in the case of wounds.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER said the regulations specified that
unless the wound was equal to the loss of a limb, no pension
shetuld be granted ; but if the Queen had the right of using her
discretion and commanding its payment, even in cases where the
wound did not amount to the prescribed severity, such an un-
certain method he considered objectionable, and suggested the
adcption of a more definite regulation.
IRISH FISHERIES.

Sir W. BARRON wished to call the attention of the House
o the unsatisfactory state of the Irish fisheries. The Irish
Parliament had passed no less than twenty Acts to protect
those rights, and subsequently the United Legislature had
adopted similar protective measures. But the Board of Works
in Ireland had neglected their duty, and the Acts of the Le-
gislature had been rendered nugatory by their remissness.
The Commissioners who should have inquired into the state of
every river in Ireland had only laid down the boundaries of
15 rivers, eight of which were in the county Kerry. Again,
in the year 1843, the first report was net made till May, in-
stead of the February preceding, as required by law. In 1844
it was not made till July, and about a fortnight since that for
the present year was furnished. This delay was not
merely neglect, it was a positive violation of the
112th section of the Act.—( Hear.) Last winter a
certain number of gentlemen in Dublin, usually supporters of
her Majesty's present Government, wishing to call a meeting
of the board in unison with the injunctions of the Act of
Parliament, consulted Lord Eliot as to the best mode of effect-
ing their object. That functionary had very properly referred
them to the Commissioners themselves, but the Commission-
ers flatly refused to accede, pleading that the qualifying term,
" when practicable," in the Act, meant " when convenient,"
and thus, forsooth, consulting their own convenience, they
would neither convene a meeting nor give information. The
reply would probably be, that the board was overburdened ;
but, if so, why did they not admit the pressing character of
their numerous engagements, and acknowledge their inability
to perform their duties ? He wished to call the at-
tention of the House to the report which had been
made by the various officers in command of the Coast-
guard in Ireland. Under an existing Act of Parliament,
they were required to register all the boats employed in the
Irish fisheries, and in the discharge of their duty they had re-
ported to the board in Dublin, that the fisheries in almost all
instances under their knowledge were in want of protec-
tion. There was scarcely one of these officers who did not
bear testimony to the steady character and good conduct of the
fishermen, and at the same time they seldom or never forget the
distress they suffered from a want of large fishing-boats or
smacks for carrying on their trade. But it was impossible
that such boats could be employed in the Irish fisheries until
there were piers made or harbours erected in which the fisher-
men could take refuge in time of danger and storm. Until
Government made grants for this purpose, as they had most
judiciously done in the case of Scotland, they could not expect
to see any improvement in the fisheries of Ireland. Government
had alrendy granted 14,000/. for improving the fisheries of
Scotland, and another grant of 3,0001. for building piers and
improving the harbours of refuge; but to Ireland they had not
granted one single farthing, although it was notorious that
Ireland was a much poorer country than Scotland, and much
more in want than Scotland. This was one of the chief causes
of complaint which Ise hoped Government would take into their
earliest consideration, and recommend to Parliament the ex-
pediency of making the same grant to Ireland as they had to
Scotland. On the 26th of July, 1643, Lord Glengal, who was
a supporter of the present Government, brought forward a
motion on this subject, and on that occasion the Noble Lord
stated that nothing could be more deplorable than the state of
the Irish fisheries, from the want of proper attention being
paid to them by the parties whose duty it was to see the Act of
regulation carried into effect. Lord Carberry, another sup-
porter •f the Government, on the same occasion gave a similar
opinion, and his Grace the Duke of Welliington promised that
the subject should receive attention in the proper quarter, but
up to that moment his Grace's promise had not been fulfilled.
Now these were the opinions of the Noble supporters of the
Government, and he might add, the opinion of almost every
gentleman► in Ireland who had turned his attention
to the subject. In certain towns in Ireland the
rights of the public and the rights of pri-
vate property were constantly clashing from the want of
being properly &fined by the Board of Works as the Act di-
rected. But it appeared to him that the present policy of the
Board was to do nothing; for, in their reports. they openly
confessed that they thought the best system for them was to
let things alone. By the Act of Parliament, the Commis-
sioners were to decide the boundaries of fresh water and sea
fisheries, but they had only done so in the case of 15 rivers
out of 150, and eight of those were in one county. Tke Act
also required them to take steps to prevent the destruction of
breeding salmon, but they had failed to comply with the pro-
visions of the Act in this respect too. It would naturally be
expected, that after making so many complaints, he should
suggest some remedies, and, with the permission of the House,
he would venture to do so. In the first place, he would sug-
gest that the fisheries of Ireland should be placed under the
control of a separate board, but not to consist of a large
number of persons. The Board might consist of
one paid officer, who should have the aid of assistants
for the purposes of inspection, and of three or four
In sh gentlemen who, he had no doubt, would be most willing
to act on the board without any pay or remuneration.
Would also have four or five deputy inspectors to act, and the
board in the various districts of Ireland under the control and
direction of the central board. In the next place, he would
facilitate the building of large boats, and make grants of money
to build piers or small harbours of refuge for such boats in time
of peril and boisterous weather. He would require inspectors
for different parts of the coast. And he asked no more than it
was in the power of the Government to grant. It was not to be
denied that the fishermen of Ireland were a hardy and brave race,
and in 1780 the Parliament voted 10,000 men for the naval
service of the country and the supplement was completed
within three months.--( Hear, hear.) A similar necessity
might arise within a short period, and he hoped the Govern-
ment would not allow dust to be thrown into their eyes in a
matter which so much concerned the interests of humanity and
of the empire.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir T. FREMANTLE was sorry to hear the Hon. Ba-
ronet speak so disparagingly of the intentions of the Govern-
ment and so hopelessly of the prospects which might be opened
to the Irish fisheries by this Bill. The Hon. Baronet had not
made out by his statistics the case which he had alleged against
the Government and the Bill. No exertion would be neglected
to bring all the information available to the Government which
wouldbe laid before Parliament before the end of the present sea
sion. The Right Hon. Baronet then went into a minute analysis
of the products of the Irish fisheries for several years past. The
system of giving boats and nets had failed, and with every at-
tention which the Government had been able to give to the
subject, he was not prepared to say, that Parliament ought to
be asked for increasing the sums of money to be given for piers
and harbours to extend the fisheries.
Mr. SHEIL said that his Hon. Friend deserved much com-
mendation for bringing the subject before the House.—( Hear.)
Sir John Burgoyne was unquestionbly a very able man, but
he was not equal—nor could any man be equal to the dis-
charge of that gentleman's manifold duties.—( Hear.) He
thought that it was not just to confound the system recom-
mended by his Hon. Friend with what was called the " Bounty
system," which every reasonable man deprecated. He would
recommend the loan system in preference.
Mr. WYSE concurred with his Hon. and Learned Friend,
and condemned the measure before the House. He was in
favour of the loan system, because, in no instance, had loans
been advanced without repayment, and great advantage to the
public, as well as to the individuals.
Lord BERNARD could not concur in the reproaches cast
upon the Board of Works in Ireland, and he believed that there
could be no better means of promoting peace and happiness in
Ireland without providing the means of industry to the people.
Immediately upon the Noble Lord's conclusion,
Sir C. NAPIER rose and said that he thought it was now
the time for him to put his question respecting the state of
the navy—( Order, order, and laughter. )
The SPEAKER explained that the Gallant Officer was out
of order, and after some short discussion, the Gallant Com-
modore gave way.
Mr. FRENCH believed that Ireland had sufficient capital
in herself to carry on her own affairs. Front the construction
of railroads in that country he trusted that Ireland would never
again call upon that House for any assistance. He did not
think that any benefit accrued to Ireland from the enactment
of laws respecting fisheries in that country.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then made a few observations, after
which the subject dropped.
ORDINANCE ESTIMATES.
On reading the order of the day for going into Committee,
Sir C. NAPIER drew the attention of the House to the
state of the defences of the naval ports and arsenals, and also
the harbours for the protection of the mercantile marine. He
referred to the motion made by Mr. Pitt, in 1786, recommend.
ing the defence of their naval ports and arsenals. He would
ask them whether it was not much more necessary now, after a
peace of thirty years, to turn their attention to the defence of
their naval ports, than immediately after a war, when such a
thing was unlikely. He then alluded to the opinion of the
Prince de Joinville on the subject. It seemed to him that this
country had changed sides w,th France, and stood with their
arms folded, while the French were engaged in fortifying their
ports and arsenals with works of the most extraordinary
strength and magnitude. He then detailed the diffe-
rent steam-vessels, and the respective amount of their
horse power. They bad 23,000 horse power in their
steam navy, while the French had 56,476 horse power.
The French depended less upon their tonnage than horse
power. All the French say is, let them look at our horse
power and the facility we have of embarking men on board
those vessels, and they will see that they cannot prevent W.
The size of the former was 2,000 tons, whilst the tonnage of the
Terrible was only 1,800, and they had thus great facilities of
embarking men. The French had an army of 320,000 men
and 80,003 horses, and by means of their rivers, canals, and
steam-boats, they could bring into this country an immense
force if the exigency of war rendered such a thing necessary.
That, at least, ought to cause a dread in the minds of the Eng-
lish. Then take Plymouth. He would contend for it that al-
though a breakwater had been recently put there, yet it pre-
sented no feature whatever calculated to resist the successful
attack of a determined enemy from any quarter. Ports.
month was in the same, if not a worse position, and it
had nothing to prevent the entrance of a strong fleet.
Then he came next to Pembroke ; that had a very large hos-
pital and very large vessels were built there; but still it was
quite undefended. Sheerness was still worse; for although the
docks and harbours there cost nearly five millions of money,
still it had no solid, formidable defences. Now, he would
ask, was this a state for this country to be in? or was it pos-
sible that it would be suffered to continue ? The Gallant
Officer then stated the number of instances in which the French
had put successfully to sea, and evaded the English men-of-
war, notwithstanding all their watchfulness, and arrived in
Egypt, and landed an army of 40,000 men in that country, in
spite of all that the English fleet could do, though under the
command of one of the ablest officers the country ever had.
Even supposing that a fleet of steam-vessels were ready for
action at any of the ports of this country, with soldiers ready
to embark, yet if agate of wind sprung up, the steamers would not
be able to get out, unless at an expense of all their fuel,
while in the meantime the French, or any other foreign fleet,
would have a start of five or six hours of us, and would thus be
enabled to land forty or fifty thousand men either in Ireland
or in this country, before the English war-steamers could be
ready; and, then, let him ask what would be the position of
this country if such an event took place ? He had heard
Dover spoken of as a harbour of refuge, but he doubted very
much if a convoy could get in there in a South-Easterly gale
of wind ; at the same time he doubted very much if
it could not be made a safe harbour of re-
fuge, and he did not disapprove of its having
been recommended by the Commissioners, who, he per-
ceived, had also recommended a place between Portsmouth and
Dover, and Portsmouth itself and Dartmouth; but the latter

Sir JAMES GRAHAM stated that the Government still
adhered to their original resolution on that point, and whatever
deviation they might make in the plan would be seen in the
amendments of the gill.
Mr. COLLETT wished to know whether the 160,000/. was
to be paid in the first instance for the establishment* of these
colleges, and the 21,000/. a-year for their support; and next,
whether it was intended that the payments should begin this year ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that it was intended to appro-
priate 100,000/. to the erection of the colleges, and then to
apply the sum of 7,000/. a-year for the support of each, but that
the payments would not begin until after the colleges were
founded, and it was therefore at present problematical whether
they would begin this year or not. Perhaps a portion of the
money might be received.
Sir T. 1). ACLAND could not clearly understand how
the colleges and halls were properly to be distinguished. Ac-
cording to his apprehension the halls might enjoy the benefit of
religious instruction or not, although the colleges were ex-
cluded from that advantage.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that it was not the intention
of Government to provide any religious instruction, as it would
interfere with their plan. The halls might be endowed for the
purposes of religious instruction by the benefactions of private
individuals.

Mr. SHELL said he wished to put two questions to the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite; but as his object was not dis-
cussion on these points, the answer might, if the Right Hon.
Gentleman thought proper, be postponed till another night.
The first question was--Was it the intent on of the Govern-
ment that the appointment of the professors should be reserved
to the Crown? The second—Was there to be any stipend
awarded to a chapel attached to, or in the neighbourhood of,
the college; and was there to be any ecclesiastic, Protestant
or Roman Catholic, to be appointed for the purpose of giving
religious instruction, and performing Divine worship, within
the precincts of the college? If it were not convenient to give
the answers nuw, they might be postponed until Monday next,
when there would be a good opportunity of stating the decisions
of the Government. The Right Hon. Baronet would be
aware of the memorial which had been forwarded by the Roman
Catholic bis-.ops upon this question. In that memorial they
were unanimous. It had been signed by Dr. Higgins, Dr.
Murray, Dr. Croly, and Dr. Denver, among the other bishops,
all of whom were members of the Board of Education. This
was not only the expression of the Roman Catholic bishops,
but he might say of the wh, le of the Roman Catholic body, or,
in other words, of seven-eights of the whole of the Irish peo-
ple. These were the questions—whether the appointment of
the professors was reserved to the Crown, and whether there
was to be any religious instruction provided.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he had already replied to
the inquiries of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of
London on these two points, and it had been agreed, as a mat-
ter of public convenience, that the answers should be deferred
until Monday. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of the
Government proposed to bring on the Irish Bank Bill on Mon-
day, and as the debate was net likely to occupy the whole of
the evening, he himself proposed to bring up the report on the
academical institutions, after that debate was concluded. He
would go into the subject in detail, and state the whole of the
plan he proposed to adopt. This course would be more conve-
nient, and he should therefore defer his reply until:that evening.
Sir R. PEEL said that there would be no indisposition to
give the answer at the present time, but AS it seemed more to
consort with private convenience. The House had had an in-
timation of the plan intended by his Right Hon. Friend, and
there would be ample opportunity of detailing it fully on Mon-
day, that would be evidently the most convenient plan that
could be adopted, as the House would then be put fully in pos-
session of the several points in the Government plan, and give
time for the consideration of them.

Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN was exceedingly anxious to see
how far the wishes of the Irish people had been attended to in
the proposed scheme of the Government, and trusted that the
report would not be delayed longer than Monday.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the time which he had named,
would be the most convenient. and as the Irish Bank Bill was
not likely to occupy the whole of the evening, there would be
sufficient time for discussion on bringing up the report.
Mr. WYSE had intended to put similar questions as those
asked by the Right Hon. Gentleman the member for Dun-
garvon, but would defer further mention of them till Monday
next.
Sir H. W. BARRON hoped the Government would re-
consider the question of the appointment of professors, other-
wise the measure would very naturally, if not truly, go forth to
the people of Ireland as propounded: only with a view to its
being a source of patronage.
Mr. WILLIAMS regretted that the Government had departed
from their original intention respecting the amount and source
of the funds for endowing these colleges. He thought it quite
a novel circumstance for 100,0001. to be appropriated out of the
public taxation of a country for the foundation of academical
institutions, and to be annually required for their maintenance.
Similar sums were expended on colleges in Scotland, but pro-
cured from different sources, and no premium was held out by
Government for their permanent endowment. If the Right
Hon. Baronet would agree that 6,000/. instead of 7,0001. should
be taken out of the consolidated fund, and trust
to the voluntary benevolence of individuals in
Ireland to raise the remaining 1,000/., he would not oppose the
vote. He felt sure that the generosity of the Irish higher
classes would snore than supply the amount required for pre-
miums, and on all grounds, he thought, not so much for the
amount as the principle, the first proposition should be adhered
to.—( Hear.)

Sir JAMES GRAHAM reminded the Hon. Member for
Coventry, that the case of the Scotch colleges was of ancient
date, and the principle originally established continued as if
by consent, while that of the Irish Academical Institutions was
novel, and he could not perceive the objections suggested by
other Hon. Members.

THE S LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, JUNE 14, 1845.

was a tidal harbour, and, therefore, could only be entered in
deep water. The Commissioners had also recommended Dun.
geness, but taking that and the whole of the rest of the coast, he
did rot know a single place that afforded a harbour of refuge.
He had detained the House thus long upon this question, but
his object in doing so, was to try and impress upon her Ma-
jesty's Government the absolute necessity there existed for
making an immediate survey of the whole coast of the
country, with a view to ascertaining which were the best
places tor harbours of refuge, and to take measures for
their prompt formation ; for if they did not they would per-
haps find, when it was too late, that. they had reason to regret
not having taken his advice. There was one other point to
wnich he would refer, before he sat down, and that was the
increased danger of collision which was likely to arise off the
coast of Africa, in consequence of the recent treaty that had
been entered into respecting the slave-trade. He thought
that the dangers from this source were increased to
an extent far greater than what they were by the
right of search treaty, for it was scarcely possible now to avoid
bre,ls and collision, especially where choleric and hot-beaded
men came in contact. On a consideration of all those things
he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would not ask for a small
sum, but a very large sum, to place the country—particularly
the southern portion of it—in a proper state of defence, for
the day might come when they would have cause to regret if
these precautionary steps were neglected.
Captain BOLDER() said that the Gallant Officer entirely
overlooked the fact, that to enable any power to effect the mis-
chief he pointed out, they must first have the supremacy of the
ocean. He felt satisfied that the officers who were appointed
to superintend the fortifications on the coast were persons who
might be confided in as having taken every precaution
which the greatest skill and patriotism could sug-
gest for that purpose.—( Hear.) When be mentioned
the name of Sir Geo. Host and Colonel Mercer, he thought he
gave a sufficient guarantee for the confidence of the country
that nothing was wanting to place the country in a proper state
of defence. With respect to the attacks of a foreign foe, that
had been so forcibly dwelt upon by the Gallant Member, he
thought that if we had nothing else to depend upon but the
steam-boats and common tug-boats that were plying on the
Thames, they could in a very short time he placed in a condi-
tion to repel any such attack, however formidable.
Mr. RICE said that after the two commissions which had
reported upon the subject, after the opinion expressed by Sir
Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington, he thought that
something ought to be done to improve the fortifications at
Portsmouth. He was not one of those who allowed their minds
to be influenced by groundless alarms, but he was certainly of
opinion, when he looked across the channel, and saw the acti-
vity which prevailed there in the fortification of Dunkirk,
Boulogne, and Cherbourg, he thought that something ought to
be done with regard to the ports on the southern coast of Eng-
land. He hoped that the Government would look to the subject
in time. It was a question on which every military man, every
naval and civil officer, were agreed on, and he was sure that if a
sum of money were asked for this purpcse, the House would
gladly acquiesce in the justice end propriety of the demand.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Gallant Officer opposite (Sir
C. Napier) hal a great advantage over her Majesty's Govern-
ment in discussing this subject. St"! he did not V2O how the
Gallant Officer could believe that it would be to the public ad-
yantege to point out the weakest parts of the kingdom.—
( Hear.) The Gallant Officer might think it consistent with
his duty to noint out the weakest harbour in the kingdom, but
he (Sir R. Peel) thought the House would be of opinion that
it would inconsistent with the duty of the Government to
point out in what respect the Gallant Officer's views were er-
roneous. if the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's views were to
be carried out, it would involve an expenditure of something
like 25,( JI., at the very least.—(Laughter.) The Gallant
Officer wanted harbours of refuge at Dover, Portland, and
Het wicb, which had been recommended by the harbour
Commissioners, and he complained that there was no har-
bour recommended to be made at Portland, and between
Portland and Portsmouth. The Gallant Officer then looked
to the West Coast, and said that the only safe harbour there
was Liverpool. The Gallant Officer then wished the East to
be supplied with harbours of refuge. He doubted not if all these
were granted, the Gallant Officer would conclude with a sup-
plemental request for similar harbours to be established on
the west coast of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier.)
And if that was granted, no doubt the Gallant officer would
end with some request for the Channel islands.—(Hear,
hear, from Sir C. Napier, and laughter.) He (Sir Robert
Peel) did not think it was at all prudent to rest with confi-
dence upon pacific declarations from other Powers, but he
thought it would be very impolitic to involve the country in
expenses equal to those neceksary in time of war. The Ord-
nance estimates and the estimates for the navy had this year
beenincreased ; but in that increase no provision was made
for the better fortification of the Channel Islands. Her Ma-
jesty's Goverment had appointed Commissioners to inquire
into the subject of harbours of refuge, and those Commis-
sioners had made a full report. With respect to the harbours
of refuge, he could tell the Hon. Gentleman that the sub-
ject had not escaped -the attention of the Government. If
there were one point which required the utmost caution, it
was that of spending millions of money upon harbours of re-
fuge. He had seen hundreds of thousands of pounds spent
upon harbours of refuge, and he had lived to see the harbours
filled up in consequence of precautions riot having been taken
with respect to the sedimentary deposit. Since the report of
the Commissioners, her Majesty had been pleased to summon
some of the most eminent engineers in the country upon this
subject. They had been requested to consider the points
upon which the report of the Admiralty Commissioners was
not considered satisfactory. Those gentlemen reported that it
was necessary, in the first place, before a harbour was esta-
blished at Dover, to le have experiments made as to the
amount of sedentary deposits. Those experiments had been
made, but the report of the engineers had not yet been made.
When that report was made, it would then be for her Majes-
ty's Government to consider the course. The subject had re-
ceived, and was receiving, the rullcct consideration from her
Majesty's Government, and he trusted that this assurance
would be satisfactory to the Hon. Member for Dover
Lord PALMFRSTON said that it was not perfectly fair
that the Right Hon. Baronet should bring the charge against
his Hon. r d .ant Friend, that he had given no previous
notice of this question, for it was per:ectly well known that his
Ron. and Gallant Friend had consulted on this matter with
the Right Hen. Baronet, and therefore the Right Hon. Baro-
net ought to have been prepared for the motion of his Hon.
and Gallant Friend. It wes very surprising, indeed, that
any Prime Minister —that any Minister of the Crown—
should say that he was ignorant of the proceedings in foreign
Courts ; for if this admission did nothing else, it certainly
proved that the Ministry did not do their duty. This matter
was one of real importance, inasmuch as it vves the duty of the
Government to call the attention of the country to the efficient
state of the ports. He thought there should be no mystery
in the state of their defences. Did foreign countries
imitate that mystery ? No. For in the Chamber of De-
puties there were the most free discussiors on the
subject of the fortifications of Paris, and no attempt had ever
been made at concealment. What was the number of the
French army ? 340,100. And our whole army only con-
sisted of If 0,00, which, ae er supplying our colonial posses-
sions left only bO,C.C3 at home. The French army numbered
340,000 men, and, deducting those sent to their fo-
reign possessions, there were still left at home 280,00) men.
Although we were separated from France by the sea, he should
think the security of the country was not adequately provided,
for by a force of some 40,07,0 or 50,C:,) men. We should imi-
tate the example of Prussia and Russia, and other continental
States, and keep an army in reserve to protect us from any
sudden inroad from a foreign enemy. The extended applica-
tion of steam navigation, and the multiplicity of railways, did
practically bring the opposite shores of the Continent into
contact with this country.—( Hear, hear.) When he
had had the honour of being at the head of the
Foreign-office, on one occasion Prince Talleyrand was talking
about some very animated debates in the Chamber of Depu-
ties, and observed to him that the duties of the office which
he (Lord Palmerston) had to perform were easier than
those which had to be performed in the similar office in
France. He asked for an explanation. Why, replied Prince
Talleyrand, your naval force has placed you in such a posture
of defence from foreign invasion, that your attention is not
much directed to the state of your defences at home. The
Parliament was called on to give greater attention to this
matter. Then the Hon. and Gallant Officer had said you
need not be under any apprehension, because no danger
can accrue to this country from a foreign invasion,
while our navy retains the supremacy of the sea. After the
numerous instances in which large fleets had escaped and re-
turned safe into harbour, it was perfectly manifest it was not
necessary to have the supremacy of the sea while steamers
sailed for the transportation of troops. The case in which his
Hon. and Gallant hriend required Parliamentary interference,
and which he wished to impress on the attention of the House,
was not the conducting of operations during the carrying on of
a war. If you had time to increase your army and had
equipped a sufficient fleet after a certain period, he admitted
the means which his Hon. Friend considered inadequate
might be trusted to, but when the Right Honourable
Baronet talked of the plan of his Hon. Friend as a way to give
information to the enemy, he would wish the Right Hon.
Baronet to make inquiries, and to ask the French Admiral who
brought last year into this count-y the French King, what was
his opinion as to the nature of the defences at Portsmouth har-
bour ? He had already expressed surprise that the harbour
had not been put in a better state of defence. The Govern-
ment had been told that if a dash were to be made by a number
of armed steamers, there was no obstacle to prevent them from
entering into the harbour. He (Lord Painters on) had been
told that the Government did not like to interfere with
the present defences, because it would be a breach of the
negotiation existing between the two countries ; but so
far from weakening the negotiation, improved defences would
strengthen it, by placing the country in a condition to repel
any sudden invasion. Cherbourg, Dunkirk, and other ports
on the Continent, had been put in a state of defence, and he
would contend that it was the bounden duty of the Govern-
ment, considering the facilities which steam afforded for a sud-
den transportation of troops, not only to go on increasing the
number of the steam force of the country, but to place those
vulnerable points, the dock-yards, in a state of security,
to repel any sudden attack which might arise from numerous
unforeseen causes. That was the answer he would give
to the little attempt at ridicule which the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet had endeavoured to throw upon the
statement of his Gallant Friend. If it was intended by France
to undertake the destruction of Portsmouth or Plymouth
dockyards, thousands of Frenchmen would be found ready to
undertake the task, or perish in the attempt. It wrs necessary
to have harbours on the coast, not only for the protection of
commercial fleets from the dangers of the boisterous elements,
but also to appoint points of concentration for steamers to de-
fend the coast. The Right Hon. Baronet had said these mat-
ters required great and serious attention, and he had stated
that large sums had been expended without suf-
ficient previous inquiries having been made, and
that he was unwilling to incur any further expense
without being first assured that the place intended to be
strengthened was really practicable for defence. He (Lord
Palmerston) considered the Government were right in pausing
in their expenditure, as regarded extensive points, but there
were several smaller harbours, about which there were not two
opinions, that they should be put in a posture of defence, and
the Government ought, as soeechly as pssible, to commence
the erection of the works. When a Government,. having an
might elapse before the works
important object to accomplish, cats about to . inquire foe facts
which no person had ever asked for, it was going out of the way
he considered they ought to
which. nothing had been
altogether unnecessarily. He hoped that another year would not
be delayed before something was done to remedy the defences
were admitted
.to be great. They
wofotuhlde country. Several
deSevuesreaful
theablelgegined,
ought to take example of the French. nation, who had made
and harbours
the ad ov
advantages
urteafguegse
put their country in a state of defence. The
great exertion to
fortifications of Paris had cost 14,00,000/., yet they
had only occupied four years in the erection. This
was a course worthy of example, and it was of the
highest national importance that the dock-yards should be
placed in a proper state of defence. The great increase that
had taken place in steam navigation during the last few years
required that dock-yards should be placed in a better state of
defence than before. He hoped the Government would take
the observations he had made in good part, as his only object
was to place the defences of the country on a proper footing.
He believed the present Government was no more to blame
than previous Governments; it was the altered circumstances of
the country that required this matter being entered into.
Mr. DARBY hoped. the Government would take active
steps and attend to this
question. He considered that no
time should be lost in putting the harbours in a stale of defence.
Mr. C. WOOD hoped the
subject would be taken into their
earliest consideration. It was indispensably necessary to the.
welfare and safety of the country that no time should be lost in
constructing harbours of refuge.

Colonel WOOD quite agreed with the Noble Lord opposite
respecting the general defences of the country. He had
•very confidence In the valour and bravery of the British sol-
diers ansl seamen, still he thought, in the present aspect of
affairs, the defences of the country ought to be placed in a
proper state of repair.
Mr. HINDLEY rose to move for a return of the names of
the persons receiving the allowance granted to Protestant Dis-
senting ministers in England with the names of the trustees
administering the same. He was induced to bring forward this
motion, from what had arisen at recent meetings of Dissenters
in opposition to the Maynooth grant. 'I he Dissenters had op-
posed the Bill on the ground of opposition to all ecclesiastical
endowments, and had, in consequence, been accused of taking
money from the Government, at the very time they were pro-
testing against the grant to the Roman Catholics. It was in
order to set this matter at rest, and to see who really among
the Dissenters received Government money, that he had
brought forward this motion. Now, he did not make any
charge, and he should feel that he did injustice to the Cabinet
if he did not name the parties who made it. Now, as the
Dissenting body was divided into three bodies—the Pres-
byterians, the Baptists, and the Calvinists—he thought that it
would be better that this return should be made.
Sir R. PEEL—Name the party.
Mr. HINDLEY—The Lord Chancellor, as it was reported
him, though he received a large sum of money, yet he
paid no income-tax whatever. There was a sum voted, he
believed, for the use of the Protestant Dissenters, but it was
not known to whom the money was paid, and it ought to be
known who received it.
Mr. CARDWELL felt it his duty to oppose the motion.
The fact was that this grant of less than 1,701. had been dis-
tributed through a board, composed of three of each of the
several connexions and three of the Established Church, ever
since the time of Geo. I. He read a letter from Dr. Rees, who
was looked up to with much deference by the Dissenting body, in
which the doctor stated that this was distributed among a great
number of men of education and position in society, and he
thought that if this motion were agreed to it would lead to the
repudiation of the grant as an eleemosynary aid to men who
were unable from their devotion to their duties—were quite
unable to obtain those advantages in society which men in their
position ought to enjoy. In consequence of this statement,
the Hon. Member for Montrose and the Hon. Member for
Coventry, had felt it to be their duty to move for similar re-
turns, but on being convinced of the error of their conceptions,
had both withdrawn their motions.
On the question being put,
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that while it might appear invi-
dious to require the names of particular parties beneficiaries of
the State, no objection ought to be raised to the publication of
the names of the various sects receiving the grant, the
amount accorded each, and a classification of the various grants.
Dr. BOWRING would like to know the exact amount of
information which the Government would be willing to afford.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
consent to furnish any further information than that hitherto
conceded, and hoped the good sense of the House would not
press for the return.
Lord WORSLEY thought that the public should be per-
fectly satisfied with the names of the trustees, without know-
ing who the actual recipients of the bounties were. A suffi-
cient guarantee already existed in the publication of those
trustees, and no advantage could possibly arise from any more
specific returns.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFOP D could net help thinking
that while, during the late debate en the Maynooth Grant, the
Dissenters had affected to abhor the principle of State endow-
ment, they were very ready to receive any bounty which
the country would conceds, and es he believed that an expo-
sure of those who thus were dependent on the State would be
usefu4 he should vote for the return demanded.

Sir W. SOM ER VILLE remarked that repeated grants had
been voted at various times to different bodies of Dissenters,
which the Hon. Member who moved, and the Hon. Member
who supported the motion, never attempted to oppose, although
they had had every opportunity for doing so, and he should,
therefore, support the Government in refusing the required in-
formation.
After a few words from Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD
in explanation,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it ...... . .............
Majority ..
On our readmission to the gallery, we found
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY addressing the House on the
subject of the expense to which the soldiers of the Guards might be
put by the compulsion to white-wash their clothes.— (Laughter. )
They, the Life Guards, were especially favoured by the saving
of the overalls—they absolutely saved 451. 16s. This was the
proposition of a Member of a Conservative Government on the
paltry advantages of the Household troops. But the gravest
charge was yet to come. In the report which had been made
on this subject, there was a statement that the regiments of the
Household troops could not possibly be deprived of their benefits.
This economy was most injurious. He had himself once
been quartered at a low public-house, where, in consequence
of a diseased animal, he lo.t half his horses by the glanders.
Now, the quarter-master of a regiment of cavalry had an un-
limited authority to purchase as many horses as he required
for the service of the Government. If the Queen of this
country were to have any body guards they could not de-
prive them of the little advantages which they possessed.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was unwilling to follow the
Hon. Gentleman through the whole of his argument. But to
adduce an instance. Sir H. Hardinge had summoned a num-
ber of individuals to attend a Court, chiefly composed of ge-
neral officers. It was on the decisions of that Court that the
Government acted. They all reported in favour of the alteration.
It was quite true that the band of the Life Guards was a
larger and more expensive one than any other in the service,
but then the officers of the regiment voluntr7ily offered to pay
many of the expenses attending it ; and it was upon that fact
that his Grace the Duke of Wellington recemmended the al-
terations that had talcen place in the regulations not only in
this respect, but in others of which the Honourable Member
had complained, and in which he (Mr. S. Herbert), though
not as competent to speak upon the subject as he could
wish, entirely concurred ; and he did think they were
such, as while they contributed to the efficiency of the corps,
did not give dissatisfaction to the men. Believing, then, that
the public took some pride in beholding this fine regiment well
equipped and appointed, end that the portion of the expendi-
diture which the public paid for upholding their state was
cheerfully and willingly contributed, he should say that he did
think it would not be well to interfere with the present regu-
lations, and, in this opinion, he believed he was borne out by
the Board of General Officers. The contemplated changes
spoken of by the Gallant Member were those sanctioned by
the highest military authorities, end such as, he (Mr. S. Her-
bert) felt assured, would not make the men of the respective
corps uncomfortable.
Here the subject dropped.
Sir C. NAPIER said he wished to correct a mistake
into which he understood some Hon. Members had fallen in
reference to the observations he made regarding the fortifica-
tions of Portsmouth. He by no means meant to say anything
in depreciation of those fortifications, and therefore he did not
wish that it should go forth to the public that he had meant to
convey such an impression.
The House then went into Committee pro forma, upon the
Bill, when various sums of money having been voted,'
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had several objections to make to
the money clauses of the Bill, but, at this hour of the morning,
he could not think of trespassing on the House, and, therefore
he hoped it would be adjourned.
The House resumed, and the Chairman reported progress,
and asked leave to sit again on Monday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.

LL9YD'S SHIPPING.-(THIS DAY.)
LONDON, June 13.—Wind at noon S.E., light airs, and fine.
PORTSMOUTH, JUNE 12.—S1d. Toronto, New York.
DEAL, JUNE 12.—Wind N.N.E., moderate.—Arrd. Constant, Callao ;
Bethel, Mosher, St. John's, New Brunswick. Sld. Magnet,
Belize; Albino. and ;11 alvina, New York; Harmony, Labrador.
PLYMOUTH, Jurix 12.-11 d. Victoria, Quebec; Mischief, Newfound-
land.

SCILLY, JUNE 9.—Wind W.—Arrd. Flying Fish, Rio Grande.
MARGATE, JUNE 12.—A packet of papers, mostly bills of lading,
and a cargo book belonging to the ship Marquis of Bute, have been
picked up at sea, and brought in here to-day.
WHITEHAVEN, JUNE 11.—Wind S.W.—Sld. John, Pugwash.
Hula., JUNE 12.--Arrd. Riniswell, Brown, St. John's, New Bruns-
wick. The Meteor, from St. John's, New Brunswick, in towing to
the llumber Dock, grounded, and lays on her side; deckload dis-
charging.
STROMNESS, JUNE B.—The Twin Brothers, from Shields to Pert
William, which got on the Quarry Rocks, 4th inst., came off last
evening without damage, after discharging.
LIVERPOOL, JUNE 12.—Wind S., light.—Arrd. Iris, Gueir, Pernam-
buco ; Dywamine, Africa. Sld. John o' Gaunt, China; John Tom-
kinson, Jamaica; Carrol of Carrolton, and Siddons, New York.
LERWICK, JUNE 9.—Sld. Hebe, and Enterprise, Greenland; Ban-
chiolvii,LN, rNfo.ulnld.l_anAdrr;
(CI. oTnust.svcanni3a.: SNpeiw ytzberogrekn.;
Meteor, St. John's,
New Brunswick. Sld. Charlotte, Bombay.
BRISTOL, JUNE 12.- —Sid. Fanny, Barbadoes.
distress NEWPORT,i JUNErss
flying,
w
12. Sh la
Bseen . Java,
to d
Calcutta.
A
founer sth inst. during a heavy
A deeply laden, and apparently foreign brig, of about 200 toss,
signal of t
gale at S.S.W., about 60 miles S.W. of Scilly, by the Humber, arrived
in the river ; owing to the heavy sea no assistance could be rendered.

FORTH IRON WORKS, FtrE.—Never has the
aspect of any other locality in the kingdom of Fife been so com-
pletely changed in so short a time as the estate of Oakley. A few
months ago Oakley was a place remarkable for its solitude. But
its solitnde has been intruded upon by hundreds of workmen and
labourers from Ireland, and almost every county in Scotland, and
hundreds of houses are now rearing, or about to be reared. The
estate of Oakley has been purchased by Mr. Allison, at 14,000 L
the estate of Blair, in the parish of Charnock, at 12,0001.; and the
estate of Blair ;in the parish of Culross, at about 20,0001. Besides
the buying of these estates, Mr. Allison has purchased or made an
agreement for the minerals in the estates of Comrie, Carnock, In-
zievar, Kinnedar East, and we believe he is in terms for the
minerals in other estates. Several furnaces and about two bun.
dred houses have been contracted for. There are, we believe, to
be from ten to fourteen furnaces. A row of about thirty of the
houses contracted for is nearly finished ; another row of about
forty houses is now roofing. There are at present, though the
mining operations have little more than commenced, upwards of six
hundred men employed at the works, besides masons, wrights,
slaters, &c. ; and when the works are carried on to their full ex.
tent, were only two thousand to be employed, we may calculate
upon a population (including women and children) of three times
that number; or six thousand. Thus we may soon see a town or
group of villages of no mean appearance rearing their heads in the
midst of wonted solitude.—Fifeshtre Journal.
THE WOOD PAVEMENT IN THE STRAND.—In
consequnce of the numerous accidents that have taken place upon
the wood pavement in that portion of the Strand from Bedford-
street to Charing.cross, and in accordance with the wish of several
coroners' juries, backed by resolutions from a public vestry of the
inhabitants of St. Martin-in-the-fields, the paving commissioners of
that parish agreed, at their meeting, on Wednesday night, to have
it removed immediately, and granite paving laid down in its stead.
THE DEPARTURE OF THE GREAT BRITAIN
STEAM.SIIIP. —Thursday afternoon being fixed for the departure
of the Great Britain steam-ship from the river, the vicinity of
Blackwall was much crowded to witness her leaving. The nume-
rous river steam-boats and the railroad brought down thousands of
people from the metropolis. Three o'clock was the hour named
for her starting, but from some unexplained cause she did not cast
off her bow moorings until full half-past four o'clock, when a
strong hawser from her starboard bow having been attached to the
Ariel Woolwich steamboat, which had a large party on board to
aCCII3IIII ny her as far as Sea Reach, she was just towed clear of the
huge mooring buoy, and then proceeded at a very steady pace in
the middle of the stream down the river. On her several masts
were hoisted the English white ensign, the American, French, Bel-
gian, and Russian colours. The bands on board the small steamer
which accompanied her played " See the conquering here comes,''
" Off she goes," and other enlivening airs. On passing Woolwich it
seemed as if the whole population had turned out to behold her.
The dockyard was lined with the naval and military officers con.
nected with that depot, whose cheers were loud and long continued,
and were as heartily returned by the passengers and crew. Near
Erith the tide turned, and the expanse of water being larger, her
rate was increased considerably, and she passed Gravesend shortly
f
after seven o'clock, with a slashing tide that would carry her well
out to sea. Throughout her whole progress down the river she
was hailed in the most gratifying manner, and the rapid speed of
her screw.propeller, unaccompanied by any apparent agitation of the
o orcontinue
and
hree
thencedityhers
fo course
rtoLive public or n
po o io
l 7 Prom
tpel y.
mouth.
n
water, rendered her progress particularly interesting. She had on
board between seventy and eighty passengers for a trip round the
coast, and should the weather prove favourable, she will reach
the 26th of July, on her first trip
Cowes in the course of to-day. From Cowes, after landing and
whichti o th .At hp embarking
eor
will
sftph aseersgwseotnialgiyeis on
to
t rntsagrtshheeornewtiwil
Dublin,
across the Atlantic,