The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-03 00:00:00

-ever, assent to that part of the Bill which proposed to
: allow children to work during the summer months from
nine in the morning till nine, because in that time there
was generally no necessity for artificial light. It hap-
pened that in the slack time of the year, when the chil-
dren employed at this business were more at liberty, the
schools for the education of the children belonging to
that class were generally shut. Depending the
experience which he had had, he would offer a suge,:es-
then to the House that, as in the case of the other tac,
tories, they ought to make previsions for the education
of the children, there were circumstances which called
forth fur previsions of the same nature. For four months
out of the twelve they could very safely afford some
education to the children. The arrangements which he
would propose was, that for one hundred days
in the year, about one-third of the whole year, the chil-
dren employed in the se factories who had not attained
the age of thirteen years, should attend a school insti-
tuted for the purpose, for three or four hours in the day.
He thought that this would be found applicable, and
it
adopted would turn out as he had hoped; the Noble Lord
(Lord Ashley) a ferred, and with great accuracy, to the
tact that in America the course now suggested to the
Houie was adopted ; during that part of the year in
which th re was a slackness of business, there was a per-
tion of the day appropriated for the education of the fac-
tory children. The same eystein was adopted in Aus-
tria. He hoped the Reuse would see the necessity of
the education of these children ; sad he would state to
the Noble Lord that, if the House should be of opinion
that such a reformation as he had suggested should be
adopted, it would be very advantageous that the Bill
should be made a substantial measure. The Bill, as
now stood, had reference to many other matters to
which he would not now allude, for he did not think
them objectionable ; but if it should be adopted with the
amendments suggested, he did think it would prove very
advantageous, and make the future regulation of the
trade perfect in all its Darts, as far as the calico printing
trade was affected, without affecting the regulations of
any other branches of the trade.—(Hear.) The
Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) having paid much atten-
tion to this subject, he might be prepared to
go much further in proposing modifications, that he
(Sir J. Graham) was not acquainted with ; but, on the
whole he hoped the Noble Lord would consent to
limit himself to the boundary he (Sir J. Graham) had
proposed, and when they went into Committee upon it,
he would give it any assistance in his power, so as to
enable it to go through the third reading at as early a
period as possible, so as to bring it to bear with effect
with the least possible delay. With these considerations
he begged to say, he should give the Bill his assist-
ance.— (Cheers.)
Lord ASHLEY said he was yesterday made ac-
quainted with his Right Hon. Friend's intentions in
respect to this Bill, and therefore he could not say
that the course now announced by his Right Bon.
Friend had taken him by surprise. Ho looked upon
the result of the amendment to be, to a certain ex-
tent, disadvantageous. For instance, the Bill did not
go to the extent he wished in reference to the bleaching,
dying, and calendering branches, which were in some
measure connected with calico printing. The next ad-
vantage he lost was the protection to children under
thirteen years of age for a limit to labour ; and though
they would be protected from night work, still they would
be liable to be compelled to work sixteen hours in the
day time. The Bill now proposed a protection to
children at and under eight years of age, by which
they as well as females of all ages were excepted
from night work. He should admit also, that he
would gain a great many other advantages by the
concessions of his Right Hon. Friend ; for instance, he
(Lord Ashley) would be spared the necessity of wearying
the House by long and fruitless divisions, and he would
also have the benefit of the approval and co-operation
of many great proprietors and capitalists.—(Hear, hear.)
This he conceived to be a great advantage, for any law
carried in opposition to them, could be rendered either
ineffectual or exceedingly vexatious.—(Hear, hear.)
Therefore, although he would reserve his opinion fur a
future occasion, yes he would say he received with
thanks the offers now made ; and lie was delighted to
find that many of those heretofore opposed to hen, were
now about to-co-operate with him.—(Hear, hear.) He
would accept of the offs r which the Government had
made, and he did it with satisfaction and delight, because
he hailed it as the commencement of a grand co-opera-
tion on the part of all employers—for one great and
grand effort for the improvement and protection of the
working classes of the British empire.
Mr. M. GIBSON said it was a matter of fact, that at
present a great number of the calico printers did not
take children under the age of eight years into their
employment, and did not suffer children to work at
night. It was a matter of great doubt whether they
should legislate, where there seemed to be a disposition,
on the part of individuals, to perform what legislation
could but imperfectly accomplish. In reference to that
part of the proposition which referred to education, he
thought it overlooked one most important considera-
tion—it was designed to educate the children
during the " slack," or the times when they
were unemployed ; but these were precisely the
periods when the masters had no control whatever over
them, and could not, therefore, be held responsible. if
they proposed to raise the character of the labouring
classes at large they should lock to the agricultural d s-
tricts, which sent an almost continual stream of labour-
ers into the manufacturing districts. This labour
coming from a poisoned source was identified with that
which naturally belonged to the manufacturing districts.
Until they directed their attention to the moral training
of the whole population lie contended they would not
effect any great practical good, if any good at all. The
Noble Lord did not define what he meant by " work,"
which was necessary, for a person might be in a print-
work for many hours, but it did not follow that during
all that time he was employed in work injurious to
health. The question was whether the amount of work
usually performed there was so injurious to health as to
call for Parliamentary interference in order that its du-
ration might be lessened. Until somebody showed that
the whole existence and condition of the factory la-
bourer would be benefited by the diminution of the
hours of toil, nothing was proved. The true way to im-
prove that condition would be to cheapen the price of the
necessaries of life, so that by working a fewer
number of hours he could purchase as much food as at
present. It was not fair to diminish the poor man's
fund, even though motives of philanthropy were the
assigned cause. Why could not the Legislature compel
the farmer to require the children whom he employed to
produce a certificate that they had been so many hours at
school as well as the manufacturer? If it was right in
one case it was equally right and proper in the other.—
(Hear, hear.) This was done by the farmers in Ireland.
It was rather hard upon the capitalists and employers in
the manufacturing districts that when they were im-
proving the moral condition of the people around them
they were compelled to submit to legislative regulations
fur the hours of labour and for education, whilst at the
same time people utterly uncultured, who had not
the advantage of any moral training, were con-
stantly poured in upon them, and the odium of their
unlettered condition thrown upon those employers.
They should at once proceed to deal with the agricul-
tural districts, and he called upon the Noble Lord to
attend to the moral training of the pour in Dorsetshire.
Mr. Horner, the factory inspector, in a pamphlet pub-
lished three years ago, recommended that a general plan
of education and moral training should be adopted
throughout the country. There should be no further
delay in the adoption of this principle. After what had
fallen from the Right Hun. Gentleman the secretary of
State for the Home Department, he did not think it ne-
cessary to make further observations at present, but
would reserve his opinions until the details of the mea-
sure were brought before the House.
Mr. COWPER wished to see the same principle ap-
plied to the manufacturing as to the agricultural dis-
tricts, but thought their condition differed a good deal.
The same class of persons were not unemployed in the
one as in the other—noun so young were employed in
agriculture as those commonly employed in manufactures.
Ile liked the principle of giving leisure to the labouring
classes, and was glad to see that principle was gradually
gaining ground. He felt entirely satisfied at the course
pursued by the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was most
desirable that there should be as much unanimity as
possible on a question like the present ; and he thought
they should advance gradually with public opinion in
changes of this important nature.
Mr. HUME said that he did not see the necessity of
interfering with the use of labour at all, but that if they
did interfere to any extent, they ought to interfere with
every c'ass in the community. Let the children of all
classes be cared for equally, and he would not find 'fault
with a well-intentioned but erroneous object. He did
not believe that the children in manufacturing districts
were at all worse off than those in the agricultural dis-
tricts. He had himself seen, during the late inclement
weather, in several parts of the country, children exposed
to all the severity of frost and snow, for the day to-
gether, in the care of farming produce, and engaged in
keeping birds from the land, and these were children
whose tenderness of years wes such that he was con-
vinced they were more in need of the care of the Noble
Lord than the children in the manufacturing districts.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. M.
Gibson) had stated that children under fourteen years
were never employed by manufacturers in his district.
Mr. M. GIBSON—Eight years, not fourteen.
Mr. HUME—WeII, under eight years then. Now, if
the condition of these children was to be complained of,
what did the cause of complaint arise from ? Why,
from this—that they were the introductions from th.e,
agricultural districts, and brought up in such a state of
deplorable ignorance that they were subjected to all the
evil influences of the vice and immorality of large com-
munities. What he wished for was, that some compre-
hensive measure should be introduced by the Govern-
ment, which should embrace every class of the commu-
nity ; and what he did complain of was, that with a
profession of the greatest philanthropy, the Government
were suffering a new generation to rho in ignorance and
vice. He thought it was the duty of Government to
provide a sufficiency of education for every class in the
country ; and he did consider them deeply responsible
for all the evils which arose from the neglect of which
they were guilty. The Noble Lord who had introduced
this measure made a pretence to a deg! ee of feeling for the
lower classes which, he was sorry to say, was but little
borne out by the acts of the Noble Lord, and those who
acted with him. They professed that the people were
overworked, and yet on every occasion they voted for
measures to keep food dear, and thus compelled the over-
work of which they complained. This was only a mea-
sure intended to interfere with commerce, and he
thought that the better plan was to leave commerce alone,
but if it was to be interfered with, let it be done by Par-
liament, and in a direct manner. The business which
the House had now to do was to diffuse education, and
not act so as to prevent the exhibition of those natural
ties which all over the world proved the best protection
for children, and, in his opinion, by attempting to make
food dear they destroyed, or at least largely marred, that
natural affection which all parents were disposed to show
to their children. They kept food up as high as possible.
The/ tried to keep wheat at 80s., then at 601., tiros at

503., and it was this which obliged the overwork of
which they complained. The parents of the se children
were driven by distress to the manufacturit g distietth
and their parents thought that it was better to MA as*
children to work, in order to obtain a subsistence, rather'
than suffer them to starve. He (Mr. Hume) thought, as
he had previously said, that it was better not to interfere
with commerce at all. The Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Home-office had referred to the several ob-
jections taken to the system upon the continuity of the
days or the term of day-work which the children were
required to eer,orm. Now, it was well known that the
manufacturing industry of the country was supplied by.
children from the agricultural class, and he thought that
the protection of these children might we;i be left to
the natural affection of the parents, and to the celneel°ll
feelings of the community ; and he thought if any Ines"
the
sure at all were passed, it should be introduced by'
Government, and be a comprehensive measure, affec tit
every portion of the industrial classes—the fermi ng
ehilerc n as well as the children in the manufacturin
districts—and not be of that character of partial legisla- •
tion exhibited by the Bill before the House.
Mr. P. BORTH WICK said that he rose to congratu-
late the Noble Lord on the extent of success that he had
achieved, and the position which he had attained by his
laudable efforts. The Hon. Members for Manchester
and Montrose had stated their belief that the protection
of the children might well be left to the natural affection
of the parents, when, by their own showing, the children
were already grievously neglected. He thought, unier
all the circumstances, the Noble Lord had done wist
in acceding to the proffers of the Right Hon. Baron'
the Secretary for the Home Department.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that, in the present state'
of the debate, he might be permitted to allude to a peti-
tion which he had presented the other night from a very
large body of operatives in Lancashire, who complained
that they were frequently compelled to work fifteen,
twenty, thirty, and even sometimes forty hours at a time,
in these print-works. This, of course, included night"
work. It was right to observe that they did not Assent
to the principle of the Noble Lord. Their positi on went
farther than the Bill before the House ; for they desert's'
to impose a restriction on machinery, and they t bought
that if there were an imposition on ruachinere r, there
would be no interference with their labour. . had
thought it right to caution them from expecti ig any
encouragement, and he was glad to find, from the repre-
sentations of the Noble Lord, that some of the r austere
had also petitioned for the restriction of the h. aura of
labour, and, above all, for the abolition of nighl-worle-
He had intended to oppose the second readin gof the'
Bill, but he must say that the concessions of tins Go-
vernment, as expressed in the declaration's of the:Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home-office, had p lucid
the matter in a very different position, and be thought
the Noble Lord had exercised a very wise di.screti in
acceding to the proffers of the Government.
Mr. ESCOT r said that he was entirely oppost d to
the whole principle of this Bill, and he was asto nis.hed,
after all the previous declarations of the Righ t B
Baronet at the head of the Home-office, to he. tr hie;
accede to the second reeding of this Bill, until be Moil,"
that the Right Hon. Baronet had accompanied I es se'
cession with the reservation of striking out, in the ,Cotte-
mittee, all those clauses which might be obnoxi DES W
him ; and he (Mr. Escott) felt convinced that the "tight
Hon. Baronet would take care to make such alteraeoese
as would make this Bill a very different Bill whit
came oat of the House, to what it was when it I wen"
into it. The Hon. Members for Manchester and B ton;
trose had made speeches against the Bill, and yet vse 3°l"
not give any decided opposition to it, although they re;
presented large manufacturing districts. He belie ee':,
that great mischief had been wrought, within thee Al°s"
few years, by this sort of piecemeal legislation. .eleal
attene pts had been made, during the last twenty-five ware,
to direct the use of labour ; but it was a well-k Oat
circumstance, that not a single Act had passed thr our
Parliament, which had not proved a grievous woolig,
and which did not require another to remedy the *trill
it produced. If they looked only to the measure veleta!
had been passed for the regulation of apprentices, Tilt
was the effect of that ? Why, that another Act "el'
immediately required to interfere with those who wore(
not opprenteces. And what was the consequences
that ? Why, that an immense number of women vetre
brought from different parts of the country int,r' tb:
manufacturing districts. And last year they 'Of
obliged to interfere with the labour of these wet ten'
The Hon. Member for Montrose had said that t bap
should introduce some measure of this character into Oil
agricultural districts. Ile would tell the Noble I-
that he dared not introduce such a measure into to:
agricultural districts.—(" Hear, hear," and a large'
from Lord Ashley.) Well, then, what he meant to oft
was, that they could not carry such a measure into effec
in the agricultural districts. It was, in his opinice:,
unwise and inexpedient to attempt to legislate on thee
evils. The law of England was sufficient for the intr‘
pose already, and the evils would remedy themse, are
and he thought, therefore, that the Bill was unnecese arY
and might be mischievous.
Mr. BROVIERTON said that he totally disagreedill
what had fallen from the Hen. Member for Winchester-
He had had largo experience during the last thirty years
in the manufacturing districts ; and he well remembered
what was the case thirty years ago. He bad at that time
stood almost alone in the attempt to obtain legislettil
interference for protecting the children in those districts'
The late Sir Robert Peel was the first individual to in'
troduce a Bill for the restriction of the labour of children
in manufactures, his object being to reduce the labour°,
ten hours and a half each day. At that time it was e 0"
at all an uncommon thing for children of six and sore°
years of age to be kept at work for sixteen, seventeen,
and often eighteen hours in a day ; and he (Mr. Bre-
therton) thought that the restriction to twelve hours wel
a great boon. He therefore rejoiced in the cotecessions °
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Benne Peea.
partment, and he thought that the Noble Lord b.ad °e t°
a very wise discretion in consenting to agee.e° et,
them. It would not only be well for
children, but also for the masters themselves.
thought that the legislation advocated by the IsToe(e_
Lord had been most advantageous to the working classy of
and he begged to congratulate the Noble Lord on tile
wisdom exhibited in acceding to the wishes of the Rigid
Hon. Baronet. He trusted that all his measures won
l
be equally beneficial to the manufacturing population.
Lord F. EGERTON said, as far as his experience
went, he believed that on the whole a great and slit!:
stantial benefit had accrued from legislation upon tl'
subject. It required, no doubt, great watchfulness 111
the framing of such measures, and he therefore con-
gratulated the Noble Lord on the wisdom of the MT;
sure which he had brought forward that evening. It ore
himself great credit, and would be of permanent utiliv
to those that were to be benefited by it.
Mr. P. AINSWORTH thanked the Noble Lord, if:
the name of the constituency which he represented, I°'
his exertions in their behalf. He thought that tb:
measure before the House that evening would be of th
greatest service to those engaged in print-works.
Lord ASHLEY trusted the House would' allow °;:e
to refer to a letter which he had that morning p ,
from an operative in Lancashire. The writer etateev
that in the very mill in which he had worked el? ce,
1826, the improvement in consequence of the Facterees.
Act was so marked in the morals and manners of P`
children, that they did not appear to be the same p‘
sons.
The Bill was then read a second time ; to be coin'
mitted on Monday next.
On the motion of Mr. EWART, the Museum et
• Arts' Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on 'Wednesday next.
SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day hying read for the
Com-
mittee of Supply,
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said, that if the 1:101
would not object, he should propose to take the
of
e,
upon the third estimate, relating to the increase or .
number of men, as the assent of the House was Pl.
ceesary to that vote before introducing the Mutiny le ey.
The House might take the discussion on the vote 31A
the amount of money required. He trusted there veeu
be no objection to this proceeding.
PROSECU 'IONS FOR POOR-RATES.
Sir JOHN EASTHOPE hoped that, before going
call o
presented
into a Committee of Supply, he might be allowedt°
the
Houseatto
an
ne tewarolypeptieti
which
hthe he attentionha rra
of that evening. He would take up tot
time of the House as shortly as possible,
explanation of the circumstances to which these petitillle-
referred. The petitioner complained that he had be
imprisoned in consequence of the non-payment of a 1)0°';
rate. That rate had been paid by persons in Leicesteen,
who, hearing of his poverty, felt it an act of charity
...1
do so. He was then liberated, but afterwards, a wore,'
was taken out against him for the amount of 20s. 04*
He was ordered to appear before fie county magistrete°
but when he attended, was not permitted to gobefo/44.
him, and it was stated that if he had brought no ne°lll%
to pay the costs he must go to gaol. He did go to tee
gaol of Leicester, and he now lay there. He (Sir
Easthope) e•
had written to the committing magistrate,
stating his intention of bringing the subject before the
House that evening, and requesting him to communiet!t:
Q
the facts of the case to some Hon. Member, but he "
J. Easthope) in endeavouring to procure redress to tee°
one party, should unintentionally injure the other. •°`e
had received an answer from Leicester that morning.;
and he was exceedingly grieved to say that 'b%
letter admitted, in substance, the facts as
he bad stated them. There was no denial that shoat
parties had been committed, on the second warrant, 1`)
the longest period it was posible for a magistrate to coin'
mit them. There was no denial that the parties wer:
not heard in the second instance. It was said, indeeZ.
'that the parties had been summoned, but had not
tended. The petition affirmed, however, that the PO*
man and woman did appear, but were prevented frail
going ;into the magistrate's room, because they bet,
brought no money. They were prevented by the veep
parties whose duty it was to take them before the rne;
gistrates, and, without the opportunity of a hearing. the'
b
were sent to gaol. It was a most painful case and •
could assure the House that it was with the utmost pa!°
that he came there to represent the circumstances of
The case had produced the greatest excitement, not (113,11
in the town he represented, but throughout tee,
county also, and every person there was watchinle
with the most earnest attention the deterenina.titi
to which the House might come upon this sub.)°, -
He would beg leave to ask the Right Hon. Baronet, woe-
ther the facts of the case had come to his knowledge'
and if so, whether he had made it the subject of a spe-
cial inquiry? He begged also to ask whether any return
had been received from the cons end
mating magistrates?
whethc rit was the intention of the Right on Barone',
to take the proper steps so as to prevent the necessity or
his (Sir Jelin leaethope's) again troubling the House
upon the subject ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. Baronet 1144,1
been so obliging as to notify to him that morning his
intension of bringing the subject under the considers"
tion of the House. He had, in additi6n, at an early
period of the evening, presented two petitions having re'
fereuce to the same circumstance. He (Sir J. Grallaw'