The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-10 00:00:00

construction upon the most naorious historical facts. I
think, Sir, the Roman Catholic advocates would do
better at once to give up those transactions to in-
famv, of which even Roman Catholic historians have,
wi►h honour to themselves, been the most severe in
condemnation. This course, Sir, would be much better
than arousing the jealousy and alarm of the country by
the ingenuity with which it is endeavoured to distort
what it is impossible to conceal.—(Hear, hear.)--When
we see men of eminence of the present day glossing over
unpalatable facts, and when we compare the account of the
same occurrence with the honest, manly, and honourable
avowal made by the historians of the time, it is impossible
to avoid making reflections by no means favourable to the
parties now struggling for power. I beg pardon of the
House for allowing myself to be drawn aside upon this
topic from the main question. I entreat the House now;
then, for the last time I will ever upon any occssion refer
to the Treaty of Limerick, to attend to a short argument
upon the subject of that Treaty in answer to the Hon.
Baronet. The Mon. Baronet has argued, that the Ist
Article of that Treaty provides for the admission of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland to unrestricted political power.
The Article runs thus—

same thing, an intimation, which, coming rata prung
who had authority to answer for the Government and
their Sovereign, induced them (the Catholics) to support
the Union: The Hon. Baronet would have the House be-
lieve that there was an understanding that after the Union
the Catholic Question would be carried. But, Sir, upon
an examination of the evidence on the one side and on the
other, I contend that it will be impossible to deny that at
the time of the Union the Catholic Question was left un •
touched.—(Cheers.) A provision was indeed attempted
to be introduced which would have had the effect of for-
warding the cause of the Catholics, but it was found im-
practicable; the intention was abandoned, and the ques-
tion left open. I have not the slightest doubt but that
many Catholics thought at the time that the Union would
facilitate the carrying of the question. I think, also, that
Mr. Pitt then considered that the subject would be dis-
cussed with less difficulty in a joint Parliament than in a
separate one; but I do deny that either Mr. Pitt, Lord
Castlereagh, or Lord Cornwallis, gave any pledge or en-
gagement, either express or implied. I speak not of writ-
ten promises, nor would I seek to defend the high cha-
racters of those high men by such unworthy evasion.
But I do insist that they gave no pledges which
could be considered binding on them as men of honour.
I rely for the proof of this on documents not yet •
alluded to in this debate. From these documents I
shall satisfactorily chew that they made no engage-
ment
binding on them, or which could fetter us._
(Cheers.) It must be unnecessary for me, Sir, in this
House, to stand up to vindicate the conduct of such distin-
guished persons, nor would I have said one word on the
subject if I did not think that we owed it to ourselves to
show that the blot of had faith cannot rest on them.—
(Chews.) Yes, Sir, I did feel that we were bound to
prove, and could prove, that they had not held out any ex-
pectations to the Catholics which could enable them now
to call on us to fulfil their solemn promisee. It has been
said, that the best proof of these engagements having been
given, is to be found in the resignations of Mr. Pitt and
Lord Cornwallis. And the Hon. Member says, that I am
now to answer for them. But, Sir, they shall answer for
themselves.—(Cheers.) Indeed, I do not see how the
Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last night could derive
' any additional argument from these resignations; for if
the Right Hon. Gentleman thought that they were occa-
sioned by any pledge made to the Catholics, and which
could not afterwards be fulfilled, I don't see why the Right
Eon. Gentleman himself should not also have retired.—
However, if I mistake not, the Right lion. Gentleman
himself continued in office ; yet I cannot conceive how he,
being, as he stated last night, the organ of c,ommuaication
between the Government and the Catholics, could not have
felt the same obligation to retire, if he thought that good
faith had been violated. They themselves negative that
supposition ; they state that they tendered their re-
signation, because his Majesty was unwilling to accept
their advice.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Alderman Wood,
we believe.) The worthy Alderman appears to mistake
the matter altogether ; he does not see the difference be-
tween tendering their resignation because they could not
carry into effect promises which they bad made to others,
and tendering their resignations because they could not in-
duce his Majesty to accept their advice. In 1801, imme-
diately after his resignation of his office, when Mr. Pitt
was questioned on the subject, he denied that he had stated
that the carrying the Union would facilitate the settlement
of the Catholic claims; he admitted that, knowing the
feeling of the Irish Parliament, lie entertained hopes that
the question would he more favourably discussed in an
United Parliament. In 1805, when Mr. Grattan brought
forward the same subject, Mr. Pitt repeated that declaration,
and in a speech, which 1 well remember, although it is
now twenty-three years back, lie used these words—l have

" 1. The Roman Catholics of this Kingdom shall enjoy
such privileges in the exercise of their religion as are con-
sistent with the laws of Ireland, or as they did enjoy in
the reign of Charles the Second ; and their Majesties, as
their affairs will permit theta to summon a Parliament in
this kingdom, will endeavour to procure the said Roman
Catholics such further security, in that particular as may
preserve them from any disturbances upon the account of
their said religion." •
Now, Sir, I contend that neither party contemplated,
by this article, any extension of political power to the
Catholics. In the first place 1 will speak to the Catho-
lics, and ask, whether it is possible to believe that the
Roman Catholics of the city of Limerick, aided by the
most able legal assistance, would have rested their claim
to such important privileges upon such vague language?—
But then the Right Hon. Gentleman, who has just sat
down (Sir James Mackintosh) quotes Lord Somers with
reference to the meaning attached to the expression " dis-
turbance on account of religion," and he shows that, ac-
cording to that Noble Lord, the incapacity to serve the
Sovereign, in political offices, on account of religion, is the
highest punishment next to death. Sir, I have heard this
argument before, and it only requires a reference to the
document, from which the Right Hon. Gentleman has
taken this passage, to see that Lord Somers' opinion was
very different from that which it is now endeavoured to
represent it. At the conference between the Lords and
Commons, referred. to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the
sentiments quoted were uttered by the Whig Peers. But
does the Right Hon. Gent. mean to say that toleration im-
plies full political privilege? I ant surprised the Right Hon.
Gent. should give rue the means of quoting his own au-
thority, Lord Somers, against him. But, in the document
to which he has referred will be found the following state-
ment made by Lord Somers :—" The Lords look upon
places of trust as so entirely under the controul of tha
Legislature, that every Government, without any reason
given, may put such ruled, restraints, and conditions, on
all who serve in places of trust, as they shall choose. But
penalties and punishments are of a difierent nature." He
then goes on to say, " Popery has ever been looked upon
as that which we ought to apprehend and guard against,
as a most inveterate, restless, and formidable enemy. There
was always a great difference betwixt Papists and Protestant
Dissenters."—(Cheers.)—This, Sir, I take, is sufficient to
chew, upon the authority of Lord Somers, that admission to
places of trust was not intended by language such as that
used in the Treaty of Limerick. In 1648 the Roman
Catholics had occasion to conclude a treaty with the Mar-
quis of Ormond, and I will read to the House the first Arti-
cle of that Treaty, first observing that it must be construed
by the state of the law at that time; and it will be found
that, especially in the time of Elizabeth, when-the Act of
uniformity of prayer was pissed, every one was obliged to
attend a place of worship according to the Established
Church, and on the third offence against that Act the party
forfeited his lands. All stipulations, therefore, at that time
had reference to this state of things and a free exercise of
religious worship, and emancipation from these penalties
would be provided for before political privileges were
thought of. The Ist Article of the Treaty in question was
as follows

" That all and every the professors of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion within the said Kingdom shall be free and
exempt from all mulcts, penalties, restraints, and inhi-
bitions, that are, or may be, imposed upon them by any
law, statute, usage, or custom whatsoever, for or concern-
ing the free exercise of the Roman Catholic religion. And
that it shall be likewise enacted, that the said Roman
Catholics, or any of them, shall not be questioned or mo-
lested in their persons, goods, or estates, for any matter or
cause whatsoever, for, concerning, or by reason of the free
exercise of their t eligion, by virtue of any power, authority,
statute, law, or usage whatsoever.
Now this was more comprehensive than the Treaty of
Limerick ; yet the parties were not satisfied, for they went
on farther most distinctly to specify as follows
" It is likewise concluded, accorded, and agreed, and his
Majesty, is graciously pleased, that as soon as possible may
he, al' impediments which may hinder the said Roman
Catholics to sit and vote in the next intended Parliament,
or to choose, or to be chosen, Knights and Burgessts to
sit or vote there, shall be removed, and that before the said
Parliament."

"That places of command, honour, profit, and trust,
in the Civil Government in this Kingdom, shall be, upon
passing of the Bills in these Articles mentioned, in the next
Parliament, actually and by particular instances conferred
upon his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects of this King-
dom ; and that in the distribution, conferring, and dis-
posal of the places of command, honour, profit, and trust,
in the Civil Government, for the future, no difference
shall he made between the said Roman Catholics and other
his Majesty's subjects ; but that such distribution shall be
made with equal indifference, according to their respective
merits and abilities ; and that in the distribution of Minis-
terial offices or places which now are, or hereafter shall
be, void its this Kingdom, equally shall be used to the
Roman Catholic natives of this King, as to others, his
AN es ty'm subjects."
Thjs chews, Sir, that the Roman Catholics at that time
were well aware of what words were necessary to give
political power,eabd no such language as this is found in
the Treaty of Limerick. It is most important, with re-
ference to that Treaty, to observe that one of the terms de-
manded by Sir Toby Butler at Limerick was, that " the
Irish Papists should be held capable of employments civil
and military under the Crown." To this article De
Ginckle refused to accede, because it was contrary to the
Laws of England—(Cheers)—and that very day he
erected a new battery, and sent in the twelve articles in
question, which were acceded to. Can it then he said,
Sir, that he meant, by the terms of that Treaty, that
every political office should be open to the Roman Catho-
fics the course taken by King
William, on the 22d of October, on the 3d of which month
(1691) the capitulation was signed, it is impossible to
impute to hint such an understanding of the Treaty, with-
out, at the same time, imputing to him the grossest per-
fidy. Yet, Sir, three weeks after the ratification of the
Treaty of Limerick, a Bill was introduced into she Bri-
tish House of Parliament, and which, if the construction
now put upon the articles of the Treaty were correct,
would he in open violation of it. And yet, Sir, though
it was thus openly violated, no one roae up to say that
the Roman Catholics were entitled to seats in Parliament,
and that a gross breach of good faith es-as about to be Coal-
rnitted. The matter did not then pass off lightly—the
question had bees discussed and well considered—provisions
had been introduced into the Bill for the preservation of the
Treaty of Limerick, and a conference took place between
the two Houses of Parliament on the subject. (The Right
Honourable Gentleman here read an extract from the
speech of the Earl of Rochester, who was Chairman of the
Deputation from the House of Peers me that occasion.)
It was well known (continued the Right Hon. Gentleman)
that the Tory party did insist the articles of the Treaty
of Limerick atiould be preserved. Provisions for that
purpose are introduced' into the Bill, and no exception
whatever is. made as tothe tiout
i exclusionght to heo fiNlCeantthlitoerliseso
seats in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)—No one then raised
his voice in support of their
f the
Legislature. Whether, then, the Catholics sat in Parlia-
ment or not in the time of Charles the Second, I do %ay,
that by the Article of that Treaty, the question of policy is
now left open to us.—(Cheers.)—l do maintain, Sir, de-
spite of all that has been urged to the contrary, that we are
now free to enter into the discussion of that great question,
that we are perfectly unfettered, and that this House can
now come to a determination upon it apart front any con-
siderations of good faith.—(Cheers.)—That Treaty had, I
solemnly believe, no reference to civil advantages. It merely
guaranteed to the Catholics the enjoyment of religious free.
dom.—{Hear,
hear. )—lt is, I repeat it, my deliberate con-
viction, that neither party contemplates admission to Par-
liament. This is my conscientious feeling., and I shall,
now that I have stated it, unless I am called on to con-
sider particular parts of it, from this moment forward
religiously keep my peace an the subject of this treaty.
—(Cheers.)—One word, Sir, as to a more recent
period of our history, to which much allusion has
been made—l mean the time of the Union between this
country and Ireland. The Hon. Member says that the Ca-
tholics received not a solemn promise, but what I admit
would amonnt, in the minds of honourable men, to the

do I know that our freedom has not mitigated the fe•city
of the Catholic, and if we place him on the same footing
' with the Protestant, lie will continue as he now is? An
Hon. Member has eulogised the Catholic religion as pee-
nessing an elasticity which could accommodate itself to any
circumstances ; and how are we to be certain if this he a
true picture of it, that it might not be presented to us Li
a different form from what we now find it, if we alter
the Constitution which has given it its present character?
We have been called upon to follow the example of other
States ; hut the question is, are we in a condition to
follow the example of those States which we ate
on to imitate ? The Honourable Baronet says the:- I
have disclaimed any apprehension either from the Pope or
the Pretender ; but he should recollect that these to whom
allusion has been made, have taken securities ; and I
ask that Honourable Baronet, if he is prepared to give
equal securities to us? He seemed anxious to prepare our
appetite for them. He told us that he placed no value on
them ; that they were as useless no an amulet hung round
the neck of a child, or as a horse-shoe nailed on a door.
I confess, F,ir, that I listen with surprise and distrust to
the language which calls upon us to open wide the doors
of political power to the Catholic., and I confess I feel still
greater surprise, when, after taking a sober and consi-
derate view of the relation in which the Roman Catholic
religion stands towards the State, I hear those who profess
to have, and no doubt really have, its beet interests et
heart, declarieg their conviction, that the securities offered
are such as ought to satisfy those whose duty it is to watch
over the safety and integrity of our Protestant Constitu-
tion. For my part, in the course of all I have ever heard
or read upon this subject, I never• once was made acquainted
with any security that could far a moment he put in com-
petition with that which we at present enjoy by the pox-
session of a Protestant Constitution. In other countries
where the Catholics are in possession of political power,
their religion is found to he incorporated with the State,
as, for example, in the case of Prussia, and it would
be perfectly superfluous to insist upon the wide dietinc••
tior. subsisting between that country and this in re-
speet both of religious and political institutions. We
are told that we may legislate for the Roman Catho-
lics without asking their consent ; and yet again we
are told that the object of concession for them i., to pro-
mote peace, concord, and conciliation. Now I cannot un-
derstand how it is possible to proceed on the one principle
with a due regard to the other. Once more to recur to
the case of Prussia : the civil disabilities under which the
Roman Catholics laboured in that country have been re-
moved ; but, as I have already said, the Roman Catholic
religion in that country has been so far incorporated with
the political constitution as to alter the applicability of the
case to our peculiar circumstances.' Ia fact, the Roman
Catholic religion there is as intimately Mende(' with the
Constitution as the Protestant religion is here. All the
Bishoprics are in the gift of the Crown—all the endow-
ments of education are in the hands of the State—the
nomination to ant' ecclesiastical office is in the hands of the
King of Prussia. In this country there does not exist—
nor does it appear at all desirable in my opinion that there
should exist—any such intimate union between the Roman
Catholic and the State as prevails in Prussia, which our
attention is so often directed to as the model by which we
should govern our legislative proceedings on this subject.
I say there does not exist in this country any such bond of
connection, and I think the advantages to be derived from
making concessions, remote and contingent as those advan-
tages confessedly are, would be dearly purchased by este-
blishingbetween the Roman Catholic Church and the British
Constitution any such intimate link of connexion as that
subsisting in Prussia. My full persuasion is, that such a
connection would lead to a degree of anxiety, of irritation—
would so agitate the public mind—as to make it one of the

the most perfect recollection of them, having that night most unwise measures that could, under any circont-
oat under the gallery:—" I approach the discussion (said stances, be resorted to; its necessary consequence toculd
he) on this question free and unfettered." (Cheers.) If be, to maintain a continual struggle, that would for ever
then, Sir, Mr. Pitt, in MO, was free and unfettered, it preclude the possibility of preserving harmony and good
is not impossible to imagine that we are prevented, by any feeling amongst the members of the community. I enter-
considerations of good faith, from looking at the question tain not the slightest doubt that its effect would be to
now as one of policy, or that he has left us fettered at the create more religious animosity than has perhaps ever ex-
present day. (Loud cheers.) I have, Sir, the means of isted in this country. Then the case of the Netherlands is
proving, beyond the possibility of doubt, that Lord Corn- instanced in support of this argument. Why, there the
wallis never pledged himself to the Irish Catholics, case is, if possible, still stronger the other way ; for though
and I shall entreat the House to listen with attention, while the King of the Netherlands does not possess the actual
I read to them a communication from Lord Cornwallis power of nomination, yet, by arrangements made with
to Lord Castlereagh on that subject. (Here the Right Hon. the Pope, and with the Roman Catholics in the Nether-
Secretary read the communication alluded to, which dis- lands, he possesses the most perfect veto that can possibly
tinetly stated that Lord Cornwallis, so far from holding any be enjoyed, for be has the power of rejecting the names
expectations to the Catholics, had studiously avoided any on the list submitted to him to any extent, that will
language which could by possibility lead them to suppose leave the Chapter a sufficient number to choose from. In
that fhe settlement of their question would be facilitated by Hanover, the same power is possessed ; the King of Ha-
the Union.) The Right Hen. Gentleman continued—l noYer has the power of making a similar selection, and it is
appeal to the House whether it is possible, after such a de- therefore that I deny, that any one of the countries whose
claration, that Lord Cornwallis shonld have raised any example has been presented to us, and which we have been
hopes in the Catholice. (The Right Hon. Gentleman called on to follow, is at all placed in the same situation as
then read an extract from a speech of Lord Castlereagh's, England--or has, or ever had, to contend with either
in 1810—from which it appeared that, in consequence of Pope or Pretender. I trust the people of this land will not
the studious reserve which Lord Cornwallis adopted, much disregard the lesson that lies been read to them in times
of the influence of the Catholics was exerted against the passed, but are not forgotten, and that they will now
Union ; and so little did the Catholics expect that Mr. uphold those Protestant institutions under which the coun-
Pitt would take so decided a course in their favour, that try for centuries has prospered and grown great, and that
his conduct was actually a matter of surprise to them.)— they will not permit the predominance and ascendancy of a
With all respect, Sir, (continued Mr. Peel), for the Right form of faith, which has ever shown itself to hold tenets
lion. Gentleman who last night detailed to us the sub- adverse to civil society, re established in these realms. It
stance of conversations which he had had with Lord Corn- is, therefore, I say, that to adopt the proposition o:t the
wallis, I feel myself bound to place implicit reliance upon Hon. Baronet, will be to destroy all that was accomplished
the solemn declarations of Mr. Pitt, Lord Cornwallis, and fur this country by the Revolution, and to deprive that Re.
Lord Castlereagh, as to transactions in which they them- volution altogether of its Protestant character, and, what
selves were concerned, and upon which rested their Ilia- is more, to deprive the Constitution of its Protestant cha-
racters as statesmen and their honour as gentlemen. Allu- rioter—to break off the sole connecting link which binds
sion has been made to his Majesty's Message in 1800, in the religion of the country to the State. Further, let the
which he expressed his hopes, that all the advantages of House just reflect upon the painful and distressing eituas
the British Constitution would be extended to Ireland.— tints in which it would in many instances place the :',Io-
In considering that Message, we must recollect, narch: he sees in Parliament a Member of the Catholic
that it was addressed to a country suffering tinder all Communion exerting himself successfully to acquire weight
the horrors of martial law, and nothing was more likely and influence in the councils of the country—he raises
than that such soothing language might then he ad- himself, perhaps, from the humblest station in society,
dressed to a people so circumstanced, although it never ' while he, in common with many more, are eligible for the
could be supposed that, by these words, his Majesty meant highest offices in the State, yet the Monarch fears to place
that they should be relieved from all civil disabilities. him in one of them, influenced, as the King of these
After some more observations on this part of the question, realms might naturally be, by apprehensions for the safety
Mr. P. went ou thus :—Sir, I have on many former occa- of the Church. Then is the Monarch called on to decide
sinus had an opportunity of stating my deliberate opinion the question, whether or not such a person should be
on this subject, and 1 have only to refer to those opinions, excluded n:i the ground of his religious opinions, and
and to announce that I still adhere to them. I shall, how- thus would the Catholic people and the Head of the Go.
ever, shortly state the grounds why I so adhere. Die- vernment be placed at issue. We are accused of resisting
charging from my view all considerations, as I hope I have the demands of the Roman Catholics solely from the =did
proved myself warranted in doing, of justice and good view of preserving to the Established Church its ten-Tore-
faith, I shall look at the question in two aspects—of pa- lities. It would, indeed, be a low and vulgar object to Aim
licy, on the one hand, as it affects the Constitution of the at nothing higher than preserving the mere secular advan•
country generally, and of expediency on the other, as it re- tag-es of the Established Church, and an object which, I
Bards present or future tranquillity. With respect to its persuade myself, the opponents of the Roman Catholics are
bearing on the Constitution, 1 think that if it be laid down far superior to. Our object is to give to the Protestant
that there is to be no distinction of civil privileges, on ac- Establishment that which all men will admit roost be
count of religions opinions, that will be giving an advan- given to the one Church or the other—l mean a moderate
tags to the Catholic's. To say that there is to be no dis- preponderance—a fair and limited ascendancy. In seeking
tinetion between persons professing that faith—that, I say, to give, or rather to preserve that preponderance, lam far
would be a ruateeial change in the Constitution of this from meaning that it should be productive of any thing in-
country. 'There are, of course, limits to the degrees of vidious, but I cannot help feeling an increased anxiety that.
change ; hut Ido contend, that if you give such advantage nothing should arise to endanger that preponderance.--
to the Catholics, you will make a most important change in When I hear it said that there is little or no di erence be-
wliat was settled, and intended to be settled, at the Ilevo• tweet: the Roman Catholic and what I should esteem the
1 lution as the Constitution of this country. (Loud cheers.) purer and the better faith—when I hear it said that
I did not hear the whole speech of the Hon. and Learned the Roman Catholic religion is pretty neatly as good as
Gentleman who last addressed the House; but as I en- ours._ that we have our Athanastian creed, and that they
tered the House, if I understood him rightly, he appealed have their exclusive salvation—that our form of s„„.,
to those who supported the repeal of the Corporation and nouncing absolution is n: rowed from theirs ; 4,,,a that,
Test Acts, and founded on that repeal an argument in in point of fact, there is little to choose between them—
support of the present measure, and this, too, on the very Sir, if that he the impression that prevails, my appre-
first day in which the Bill far that pups, became a law. }tensions are confirmed, and zrot fears are increased;
This, I must say, is most unfair, and in direct con- they are increased in peopos'tion to the frequent recur-
tradiction to what feil from the Noble Lord who in- rence of those occasions on which we hear it argued that
troduced that Bill, who declared that there existed no there is no tangible or intelligible difference between the
and that no inferenee doctrines and discipline of the two Churchea.,--(Criee of
ftrhoism";ohe cases,n in favour of the mites'. No, no.)—l say 1 have heard it so aegoed by the Right
clr;oaiorielaslilceaslbeeb, edSt:vairw7nnof the Protestant Dissenters has always lion. Gentleman opposite.—(CheerStig.)—l heard it from
been different from that of the Catholics'. (Mr. Peel here his lips this very night, arid, last night I heard the same
went into a history of the Protestant disabilities in proof of principles contended foe by the Hon. Baronet by Wit?na the
this assertions)—Sir, he continued, if you remove the present debate has been opened, I ant the:eft-4n not to be
disabilities under which the Catholict, now lie, and admit prechotled from arguing for an opposite ennolusion. I eon-
them to an equal right with the Protestants, you destroy tend that there is the widest, 4itYpwcAce between the two
the Protestant character of our Constitution, and the only Churches ; and, as out rev name implies, we protest
link which will remain to connect the Church with the against the erroee, a4d, as we consider them, the false
State will be the obligation in the King to be in commit- doctrinettof the Roman Catholic Church, I contend that
„ion with the Church of England.—(Cheers.)--Our theoe ic, and ever has been, au essential (Fe/Terence, and one
Bishops nosy still Sit in the House of Lords ; but tatha which never can be reconciled Without the most extensive
away those you take away the ieeeo,et- abandonment of principle age the one side or the other.
antcliaratedrisaobfiliourand Caonstitotion. The policy co' the So much, Sir, for the aosesseral argument upon this question
Revolution
o‘tnvila-iiitst'ats to their intention. °ln
as)n,
be vague and indistinct, but t, sake this a Protestant State.
,T
sire
—so much re.. t:;-le probable effects of concessions upon
v
17.:44ie and character of our Coustitution.—llere We
n )be n I .say, then, now proceed to consider the hearing of the question
thata
if you pursue the course to which I have alluded, the on Ireland, and that lam Perfectly ready to acknowledge is
itr'e,
I thei,ay
institution will loee that distinctive character, except in so the most important point of view in which it can be con-
fer as the influence and property of Protestants tnay secure sidered, 1G never denied that the state of Ireland is one which
to them ascendancy. These must I know be large ; but so desuands the application of every measure at all calculated to
tor as regards her Constitution, an essential change must be promote its advantage which can be applied with reasonable
made, if you remove every dietinction between those who pro- prospect of safety to the general well-being
of the empire;lc.(r, s,lo d a.d
fess the Protestant and those whoprofess the Catholic faith. but I confeas myself amongst the number of those who
We were told last night, that the doctrines of the Catholic doubt the efficacy of any such remedy as the concession of
religion had, indeed, undergone no change, although in those demands. I am the furthest of any man from de-
their operation they were greatly modified; and the Hon. nying the evils under which Ireland labours, but, if I eta
Member who told us so, with a warmth and strength of to choose between the endurance of these on the one hand,
language hardly ever used by the opponents of this mea- or the dissolution of the Protestant principle in the British
sure, described the religion as a tiger driven to its den by Constitution
the illuminating influence a prot„tantism_but bow do I in making nay election. I cannot but consider, that the
disproportion between thD numbers of the Ca-
Ma the other, I can have but little hesitation
know that one cause of that modification is not to be found immense
• in the freedom of our principles ; and how do I know but tholies and the Protestants, so far from affording an ar-
- that the Constitution of this country, which it is new at, ausnent in favour of concession, that I think it makes
tempted to alter, has produced that beneficial change" HOY quite the other way. We are told these are five or ~ix
ma,

g .i
hii
it.j,
spirit
"0,
af s
disaffectionm at,tlncere,
font of Catholics in Ireland—the exact number; are not
very material, and for the sake of argument I will admit
that there is a vast disproportion. Now, I con unable to un-
derstand upon what principles it is proposed to secure the
! safety and independence of the minority, if the whole, or
almost the whole, of the power, political and Parliamentary,
be plated in the hands of an opposite, and, in some eases,
an ads: party.thelfmaonsyt
shaoupzeuic7noue,hiltbew,,,T,;(eiritiaeinceadmopnlettehli;
subject, even by
destroyed by the declarations ef the parties tstnittlt.es—
by their demonstrations of physical force, acted upon by
spiritual influence. Fairer notice never his been given
than that supplied from tie lips of the Catholics themselves
of what we hare to expect should we ever consent to admit
them to a full participation of political power. Look tri
the effects of the Bills that have hen
benefit—look to the manner in which those Bills hay' been
received, and to their effects upon the temper and feelings
pessed solely for their
of the Catholic population.—look to the manner in which
they have accepted the Vestries Act—the Sub-letting Act,
and the Arts relating to Burials, introduced by my Right
Honourable Friend (Lord Phinkett)—stetntes in which no
one object was considered hut the means of their advan-
tage and conciliation. If, with the power and the advane
rages they at present possess, they have proved themselves
able—and have manifested themselves well disoonid as to
resist and render nugatoey enactments and provisions in-
tended solely for their advantage, how :rtell more power.
ful would they become for the purposes of faction, when
ipaia,nelso:pltielthtihseidetta:ll:
rth'oh'a.,e:i power.:'hr,eer,...yiiihlroTdeoni )iporsmoitit.eciislitlie,ahgsgirebostifhl
actuali teth,pni: soda,sitn, Port
dprr tptos possessed
appointment
me'pleac,es: increasedninofnttnt,i,itnnziodgo,
ifihtihtc ist,
e
or not ae it saw fit, that all possible injury from their eli-
Great, however, as are the discontent.; which at present
prevail, I entertain not the slightest doubt that they would
he augmented incalculably, if the only bar to the admih-
sion of Roman Catholics to the higher offices of the State,
were to be found in the objections of the Cruwn alone.
The jealousy in -itch a case would be excessive, llnt he it
remembered, that it was not alone eligibility to the higher
offices the Catholics; demand, they seek to be admitted to
seats in Parliament ; and here it would not he a ooteetion
with the appointment of the Crown—neither would
it be so in corporate offices. Most, if not all, of the
counties of Ireland, !send Members, who, though they
do not deserve the character elven of them ! in one
quarter, namely, that they are the blind instruments
of their constituents, yet the course and character of their
parliamentary life has been such as Sr, leave little doubt
respecting the influence and power of those by wlinm they
were elected.—This is the case while we have Protestest
Members. I leave the Itouse to judge what would he the
probable state of things were Catholic representetivea to ha
sent hither by the choice of Catholic eleetnee—ree, ramie:
the elective franchise how von will, the Catholic populating
of Ireland will ever have a preponderating influenee. Let
us now consider what the effects ere likely to he, as regards
corporate offices!. There are, I understand, in Ireland,
115 corporations, containing no less than '2,500 officers ;
to every one of these a repeal of the penal laws would
render the Catholics eligible, and With the growing in-
fluence of the laity, and the onceasing activity of the
priesthood, and the vast nornerical superiority which they
possess, the result could not long remain problematical t
and here, the Crown having no power to appoint, nor
no privilege to prohibit appointment, the argument founded
on the Roman Catholics demanding nothing more
than eligibility falls! quite to the ground ; for, prac-
tically speaking, the repeal of the penal laws woniti
give them, not eligibility alone, hot actual appointment„
and it is self-evident that the consequences of those ap-
pointments would make a most material change in the re.
ettive position of the Protestants and Cethci-ics in Roland r!
and I must frankly declare, I do fear the eonsequence.s.
when I see the manner in which they have used the power
already possessed by them. Not only here thee received
with every species of resistance and hostility, the measures
directly introduced and enacted for their relief, but they
have scouted every proceeding of a secondary nature cal-
culated to place them upon a better footing then before—l
allude more particularly to education, and to marriages,
It is well known that when marriages take place between
, Catholics and Protestants, the Catholic Clergy refuse their,
' sanction unless upon the express stipulation that Om
children shall be bred up in the Roman Catholic faith...
when I look at the preponderance which such a system is
calculated to impart, I cannot hut regard it rie one of
the most evil symptoms of the present timed. When,
again I look at the demonstration of physical force, effected
by assembling in one day, at different meetings, the whole
Catholic population of the country, for the declared pur-
pose of petitioning us, but with the real purpose of making
such a display of physical force as was calculated for the
purposes of intimidation ; when I Fee these. meetings
kept within the letter of the statute, by the advice of eta -.
tote lawyers, I cannot but regard it as a monstrous alms,
of the power which they do possess, and an unequivocat
pledge of the purposes to which they would connect any
additional privileges that Parliament might, in an evil
hour, invest them with. I have heard much of the pet -
pecettious of which the Catholics complain, but I feel not
the slightest hesitation in affirming, that the real pereecut
tion would he found to have proceeded from thorn and no:
from us. We are told, too, that we must adopt, one of
two courses, either admit Catholics to a full participatien
in power, without securities and without restrictions, or
that we must proceed to reenact the old penal code,—
From this I beg to express my most unequivocal distent ; I
think that a middle course is upen tea us, and that it is
that alone which wisdom directs 11A to pursue. 1 conceive
from this, Sir, that to persevere in the steady opposition to
the demands of the Roman Catholics, is the only centric
open to nae in the preseet balanced state of Pee liamenta.ry
opinion, and the necessarily belanced state of the Govero-
inent ; and that I shall have best perfeerned my dury he
having thus expressed my honest cenvietion, and by oopes.
ing the motion of the Hon. Earonet, for reinmeteg rite
political disabilities under which Cetholics labour, and for
placing them and Protestants on the same footing.
Lord WILLIAM PAGET was determined to vote ie.
f.vour of a cause, the suceees of which he honestly and con-
scientiously felt to he intimately connected with the pease of
Ireland, and the well being of the Empire at large.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD rose to explain, amid ihivierie6
of " Question, question, and spoke, spoke." The Rig',,;
Hon. Member, after repeated edhrte to gain the atten.‘;er,
of f
hearing; the I 1! ozuhrsuett, h
ea‘lt,farse lengthisu,frequent
interruptions
obligedsti c te e d ed t
ain
sito( ec: a.adi atioi
oti :3:
Inge t al i
,:bri:cr,t; :it;
sequence
impatience of Honoureble Meenhets. After u ehort reuse
the Speaker named the Right Ron. Member " to ex-
plain," end he again rose, and oleserved,—that lie was ex-
tremely sorry to be obliged to treepass on the time end
patience of the House, while he entered into a brief exele-
nation of one or two points in re:l4ton to which he hitch been
misunderstood bythe o i Ilan.
Home Department. The Rt. Hon. Gent. appeared to thin':
he had stated his belief of the existence of a combinative
among the Roman Catholic population of Ireland, excited
by the influence of the priesthood, What he said wals
that the spiriteal influence of the Cathotii;isic.)it
tPriests,grozial.
under the political dominion a the Catholic leaders, and
. that tie' entire population was organized to a mad is a
point of a personal nature, uhich, as it afiltetd. htit'
honour as an individual, he felt most anxious to exphon .e
the satithetten of the House. The Right lion. Serretra t-
is.otantseetintheids dtioshreeliteafintohffiateehez (bitelre.onFsiidtaigreedra
on which Mr. Pitt resigned office was
he had t -
rejection of the Catholic Question. I\CTYL'ord Cas leader 4 his resignation to Lord Cornwallis
( thea,
fn d t
objecti v
Intent to impute any blame
ctsatludscehbyt I iey
this
e onolty'
Catholics it nlrd.n :1.11;01as:el and his
een::ifi:l;Bl'o""tb:;:ill:it_tittl
eetitl-al ll
resignation,il'3i
lerti)
II .eseatnintdr.
might
be
e froth be attained, than by -h
never
rt,pgte-h,o,
11,jeal ;:itt‘.tocl. !ell
reloation
RfetliEe( lbi,c:tierusitreiWeitt)sisae'lerot.eini n°ak PEEnin. \I
taiiirC::r''rolet°:,in tiai:'}titeeelll'
reflected
orlon,l
!tin:ill time
Isalii.lifuli(n"
,e:- inittllot'ro(fn.orlif)3(ll‘tr,t'l'ilt.'llott ns• .iirtiac.crlias °ervs'(les:iiitidner,nitc.rrgitie‘c3lt. thenaillwrt'. rgeese%!daQ.hr nmOit' theh:itaa‘l, 'a,eni iiuf::tn're e.stl°i.'ttie‘e''tainibt-n'i'listredii
troico were renewed
Gentlemen on the way in which it la, .
been conductef! throughout its sobsequent progress, up to
the present moment, he could not but entertain a hope
of its ultimate success. He should not say one word 474.
more im r.l a-
, WhOTsre°44aiteonftiLonimelrtiact","
diately directed to the subject, was, no doubt, justified in
discussing it in the copious manner he had that night done.
At all events he (Mr. R.) could readily conceive how muclt
present case and :ee ied.
more agreeable it was to do so, than, as a British Mitiietee,
to deal with the necessities of the
With respect to the Union it was not his intention to ield
any thing to what had been already said. It might ; e
desirable to know what were the views of Mr. Pitt and
the Cabinet of the day in regard to the connection between
that measure end Catholic Emancipation ; but it was still
more important to learn what the Right lion. Gentleman
beTeih,e Right Hoe,
opposite and the present Cabinet were dispeeed to do with
respect to the latter question. It afforded hint sincere
formerly brought against the Roman Catholics, had net
•••ti
pleasure to observe, that the charge of divided allegiance
tide occasiou been repeated, Such a charge was made by
iapon,if,ediittd,o,a,l;etuil.isi, and
this
a(
1, unfounded
apprehension