The Sun.
London, England, 1810-05-10 00:00:00

HOUSE OF CO.II,IIONS,

WEIO'..,TESIjAY, MAY 9.
• SERIEANI AT ARMS.-
On the motion. of the C:rAtccneeoi E the x-
.
cilEatna,- the Serjearrt'at Arms was .called to the
Bar, :aria questioned by the Speaker, with resped
to the lyn-ticuhas of the process thk had been served
upon hint s • •
. The Serjeant at Artn6 stated that had received
The process (which lie then delivered in) from the
same person who had delivere,-d to 'him a notice le-
quiring a copy of the warrarmunder the authority of
which be had arrested Sir F. nuidett.
The process was then re.!(l by the Clerk.
CALCAAFT wiSlied to know what answer
the Serjeant had made toethe reqniiricri for a' copy
'of the '. arrant. . • ' • .
The Serjcatit replied, that be had referred to the
Solicitor, in 'Whose hands' the wat rant wets:
The SPEAKER observed, that the Serjeant had -
done .se, by his advice. - • .
The CHANCELLOR of the ExcuEQuatt then mov-
ed to refer, :the matter stated by the Serjeant
.at Arms, and the Paper delivered in by hiM, to
the Committee, appointed to consider ,ot the pro-
ceedings- had, and to be bad; with resped to Sir
Francis Burnett.
- Sir T. TUtufois contended that if any. thing on
the face of the Paper in question .affeited the Privi-
leges of the House; the 'best mode of vindicatingg
their dignity would bteto find the -person by whorh
the process had' been served; and to take the proper
steps for punishing him.
Lord FOLKSTON': was. also. of opinion that the
case ought to be left to the ordinary process of the
law, a course which would be infinitely wore satis-
faaory to the public feeling, and more consisteot
with the preservatiOn.of the rights and privileges of
thee House of Commons. 7
Mr. ADM wished for the indulgence of the.
House, 'while lie shortly, candidly, and he trusted,
satisfadorily, explained his condud with resped to.
the Comtnitkee appointed on Monday evening.
though
,he had no objeCtion to the appointment of
that Committeeefor 1 the purpose of investigating
fa Gs, he had the most serious: objection to their be-
ing aut!iorised to report an
.opinion, because lie
tliong;lt, that to vest ste-h.anthority. in any Com-
mittee, upon such a queition; was in a
.great mea-
snre, ahatLionment t:y the Hotise of theitrprivileges.•
The House•ef Ceminens posspsied ample means of
entOreing-it privileks, -although they had not yet
been r simed to. tic Oke year lino (at
pQra?ii an Act passed. for 'ell:lug-away from
the Members of the House. , Cum:eons fieedom
from elions, ticc. andlervieg them the sinOe prig
ilege of treedom rbm arrest) w hen any Member
plained of a dotice of, afiion having been served upon'
him (which frequently oc-erre.dy, the individual serv,
ing it• was broae,nt to the Bar aUd examined. If he.
-acknowledeed that he hadeserved the writ, either
the matter was ordered to be, taken into considera-
tion by a Committee of priVilegesc or the-party, was
immediately taken into cus:oy. if any doubt exist-,
udeas to the grit, evident.
.to establish it.
From these established 'ere::edents, he drew this eon-

elusion, that he could riot cl,degat to any Commit--
lee the*Abotity ofc?usiderin..; a slmjea abea.iy so
clear. He was not in +he wnen :he Com-.
inittee to which he alluded. was nominated, _and
when his name teas proposed -as- one of the mull-

belt' of it. , Of -this circumstance, - however, be Wi4Lis rOse"to oppose its reception. Every
received intimation in the course of the evening...-.I consideration which he hid been able to give to the
He did not take any immediate step; but having re- subje6l,• confirmedlitn in the opinion that such a
fleeted inaturelx on the subject, b,:ing.persuaded Petition ought not-to be received. It was.an.
that there was only one safe:coursd for the Houk., to tional and deliberate insult on the House of
pursue, he told a feat ned Friend of his, Who was a mons, in the prosecution Of the system industrious-.
Member, of thacCommittee, that he shoufd not at-, ly pursued by a certain party out of doors, of Vili,
. tend it. He conceived it would be proper : for the fying and degraditv.-IKat House, and thus working
House to adopt some disiiro resolutions, digiinetly the most serious mischiefs to the Constitution. If
declaring their privileOsondflie triode in ~vhich they I any thing were wanting to prove . the intention of
would be supported, and giving notice to all man- the Petitioners, it might be found in the Resoln-
bind that such would.be their course in future. In tious which were adopted by them on the day when
Ills opinion, if the present subject were. refefred to they agreed to the Petition unilgr discussion. The
'the Committee already engaged .on the other, that Hon, Gentleman here real ,the Resolutions allocied
Cominittet would fioJ (]el)er and deei..er to from a newspaper, and, et:intended,. that in other
hi-difficulty. He repeated, that the only safe cdurse times -the individuals who had affixed their sigma-
which the House could punue, was-to bring the tures to such a document, would not have been
.person whose name was endorsed on the instrument out of prison twenty-four hours afterwards. If

F,;_ith,eXpiessions as th(37',6 contained in the Regolu-
t;onS had been admitted into the Petition, no man
;:ould,besitate for a moment in rejefting the Peti-
tiou as a most, violent insult to. the; House-; 'but
tbe.terms of the two produaions were not
precisely the, same, their spirit wds exactly
The party-Iron) which this and similar Petitions pro-
ceeded were unanimous in their general abuse of the
'House of CoMmons—Of the ,Outs as well as the
Ins, and of the former indeed,
,still more than
of the latter: Even the Hon. Gentleman opposite,
i'Vho had gone a great length.with Them, had.,Only
been considered by. them
,as a " decoy duck ;" nay, •
at rtptiblic meeting which that Hon. Gentleman at- ;
tended,
.an&at Which he had ventured. to state a-
possible case in which the House might justl)o
resort to. the privilege of commitment; be Was .on-,
der the necessity of restoring the hailni)fiy. which that.
opinion had interrupted, by proposing-the health of-
that worthy and distinguished patriot, Wank-
rrra.rh Considering that- by the reception of sucli a:
Petition, 'the•House would be the accomplices of
their own degradation,. he should most oettai•nly
vote against the motion. ,
Sir T. ..TI.JRTON CIO not. think. that a peti.inti
complahung of grev.inces ,ought to be rejected,
however strong, the. language in which it was ex-
pressed,
unless indeed it . were addressed " to the
assembly in St. Siephen!s"Chapel," or " to the
Hoorn," or in arty other mode equally insulting,
which the, pr,!lcent pet it 'on was not. . When it w:s
the opinion of ran persitts in and, out of 'the
House--whet;, he ,vonid say, it was the opinion of
strcii a ltre,!i mind as that of the
C-Ltnlk,,itian -near him: (Mr. Whitbread); not
only tLlt the House had exercised its privileges
improvO:otly, but that.it bad no right, in the pre-
sem ,ca,se, to exercise' them all—was it. surprising
that the people should exprets' therriSelves frankly

ari.insfancesrf forht3ranee. In the rescititinns 6s.
offenive, and not'the petition, he-Could only see
a desire to avoid expressing their feelings in a man-
ner which might be objected to. Nothing had trans-
pired with respea to the meeting, to pave that••ei-
ther The livcS-or the proi,erty. of individuak attending
it would have been endangered, as the Hon. Gen-
tleman seemed to apprehend. -It had been a,4;ed,
why petition§ bad not been received from other
counties. Such were Out to be,expeaed if those
presented by Niddlesex..Were thus tejeCted. That
they might know the real sense of the people, nd
obstrWtion ought to be given to their exercising the
right of petitioning, and it it was thou tit that.r,3eaP
,ing t lie Petit ion of t he Livery W ciuldideter of hers from.
expres.ing their sentiments, that would be widrhina
the strongest reason for receiving it.
`ANNE was of opinion, that theresolu-
!ions, whatever they might be, cotrid furnish :usd
reason for•Jejeaing the petition ; but the Veritionr-
itself, •he said, was couched in such tennis thAt. he
thought it really ought not to be enteitained— •It
Was the bounden duty Of the 'House- to vindicate
their privileges, and as they had received-Oen) !roar.
their foriftatheTs, transmit them to their posterny.
Feeling this; he should vote for the rejethon of the
petition.
. _

Sir J. NEWIORT thought the question was, whe-
ther or_ not the people had a right to state their
grievances to Parliament. It trey might not eX—
ptess their disapprOhnion, they had no riglit of pe4
titionini;.--- It was
.btAter that the people should 'ex-
press their grievances, than that they should bi'ood •
over them in .siler.Ce,' till at length tile feeling they
call forth, bursting all restraint, became. dangerous
to the State.. Such' condud it was which brought
on those calamities which
.bad visited the continent.
The City of. London had in a regular way stated their
grievances to the 'House, 'in a manner which ought
not to give the House_ wren( e. But it was 'said that
though they said they did not mean to offend npan
the whole their petition could only be considered as an
insult. An Hon. Gentleman who had been placed by
the City in a high offieidl situation, had spoken of their
meetings being attended by pickpockets, as being •
numerous from, their vicinity to Saffron=hill.
. was not just thus to characterise those meetings. Hp
was then. told of protests agaiusr their procet-diogq,
but a General Meeting, regularly called, hild inure
weight with him. If the sentiments of the Petition •
voted in Common Hall were not' those of the ma-
jority of the Livery, why did not those Gentierried
attend ? .Why suffer themselves thus to be 'over-
borne ? With resped to what had been said. of -OP
Meeting haVing -been held in the passage to the
Court of ii-iug's Bench, he would ask how the Sense
of the City of London had been.Coletted'on former
occasirms?-4-lad the sentiments of the Livery never
been taken' in a propo. , manner but When they
were in tay,:ur' of Minister;? No fault was found
with the nianrer:in which they were collected at the
time- the cry of
_"-No Popery" was raised. Toe
means then made use of by Ministers to answer their
own purpose's were turned ag ,inst t hen-Helves..theY
' .vere not the first who had 'fallen by engines at-their
own conitrudion. He thought the 'Petition ought td
be received.

. .
and warmly on 'the subject ? Goaded and' irritated
as the-people had ecei)tly been by the condua of
public men (One. AS ‘vham, :in. Whose imprpdence
all thosedifficulties in
,which the House found itself-

originaied, bad lately been raised to a situation of
great honour and-e.molumenl), Was it surprising that
.they should express' their fe;ylingsi of clisgust in strong
enet(getc language ? • To the privileges of the
House 01 CoMmons be was himself a lA/2.l'm friend.
In his opinion their priv►leges weie 'coeval with
their: existence,- and onghtE•never to be abandoned ;
but he coui•l not.consent .to "reject the petition ,Of a
respettabl, body'of the people, because on-this sub-
ject- their sentiments differed from. his.
Mr.JAciau inquired-how it happened, if the sen-
timents of -the majority of. the people of Engla;:d
were the same as those .who had
.presented that pe,
titidu-,:that they had no more such petitions.. It
was not to be double& but the pickpockets from
Satfron7hill, and the friends Of liberty from Fleet-
lane, would rally round the standard of Oprpar. and

confusion on which their existenCe depended, but
• it did not thence follow tint the sentiments' of the
people Of England were t hose expressed in the pe-
ti+ion. .One Hon. Mernkel had said there might
be'three thousand people assembled in the 'Rdl,
-another thought there might be two thouiaPd, but
probably not half of the crowd thus colleed tote-
tiler were members-of the Livery of. London.
-.meeting was held in a‘coinmon passage leading to'
the Court of Kind's Bench., and e‘ic.r"v person who
stafed•himself to l.:ave business in tliat Court was
itninediateh admitted, and might thus become in
effed one of tho,Livery. M'any "Who might be dis-
posed to attend the meeting were detect-JAI from

Mr. PRELE desired to knew if the. Hon arable
Baronet, or'any of those who opposed the rejeetiel
of the Petition, Wished -to- open like do rs of the
I-10-ose to insult ? It there were any iiolirs which
ought-to be .obserVed by the:se petitioning the Howie
'he would 'ask if those 'lintits had rim been -tens-
gressed, and if there were any p iet a; which the -
House ought to make a stand against insolence, hc-
,wotild ask if they had not arrived at that point ? if
no such limits existed, then they might thank these
by whom the petition W,,IS voted for their forbear-
ance, and prepare to receive, new insults.. He pro-
tested against submitting to insult, and thought tho
worst thing they could do was to acquiesce in it itt
the first instance. It was wise to forgive uninten-
tional errors, but not to overlook an intentional
fence. They bad been told of the'consequences of
rejeCting the petition, but it was to he remembered
they required no, subniision from the people, but
merely that their'addresses should lave the negative
merit of not insulting the House,- Those who coo"
SidereJ-that Hause as still answering every virtual
purpose of the representation of the people, would?
be hoped, maintain its dignity. The. petitioners
founded their player on an assumption that that als
illegal which yet remained to be decided upon he
should.therefore under all the- circUmstances, Vote
for its rejection.
• Mr. Wi.Eeettr knew of no way of profaning die
right of petitioning more titan by permitting the
abuse of that House in petitions. Had- there beer'
but oneof the kind he-should have been disposed to
receive it indulgently, but being the third he thought
it necessary to rejeCt.it. It had been said, that as
the petition it was said "we conceive," ‘`'i.l
pears to us,'' &c. instead 4* stating positively VY:
charges against that House, it ought to he entertaiti"
ed. It might with the same parity of reason be con'
tended, that though, if a person p:onounced him to..
be a coward, a thief, or a murderer, he- would hale'
a right to repel the insult, yetif the party only
" I 'cpiceive you to be such," he:wbuld.haVe t}
cause to feel offended. He thbught the 'prayer intea
appear to every one to be but ,a secondary object V
the petition, ar4d when
.systematic endeavours were'
perpetally making
,to overturn the authority ;Itl:i"
.privileges ontat House they ought not •to overloo,,
theM. They 'might dyceive • themselves hot coulj
not delude others. The Member lbr Bedf.al'
Whitbread) had seemed to echo the sentiments of
the petition, He rejoiced that there were not mat)/
Who thought •St) meanly of them eithei in or out of
that -House. The most prudent, temperate, or n=3'
tural line, of condkt they could putsue was to reject'_;
the eetition. . • •
Mr. WHITBREAD had not given an opinion on tite
petition., .U4l on certain expressions which it cow.'
tamed. He lead:aSldld where vas the' justice of the
House, when deciding on the questiur respect-114
thelate'expedition, and Where its- dignity
certain other occasions ? but he heel not pled;,-
hiniself-to defend the .sentiment's •contained. 14'1'
had no intention Of doing so. 'He might sup;;‘)r,
the motion ithout approving of the matter of tb"
petition. •
Mr. WARDLE,' a Member of Parliament arn! 3
Liver) man of the city at London; ocise to vindicate
the Livery front the charges preferred'aqainst thellt;
The brutality Spoken of as the chara6teristic of 0.4;
r— '
meetings was not with him a sufficient reason
believing that thoJe. of a different opinion were afr-

going to it by the brutal conduct Of those who were
'colledtd together on such an occasion. It was too
much to expect min of respeCtability would risk

encoutnering assassins and pickpockets. He. had
to announce.to the House, that 1700 persous,` who
were .undotal:,tedly of the Livery, had signed, in the
most manner, a declaration opposing the sen-
Ttiments contained in the ,pethion. It was not a
petition pledging themselves to support his Majes-!
ty's present Ministers, but a declaration in which.
they pledged themselves' to support the Constitu-
tion-,to he giverned by the King, Lords, and Corn-
' Mons, and. rn, which they expresed confidence in
their Representatives, in the affection of the King,-
in the 'integrity of the Parliardent, and, in the purity
7.0 f the Judges of the land. That of which he spoke
..yas not yet coinpleted; it had-but just begun, and
tvas still it its infancy. He • hoped ".it would in:.
crease, and that the sentiment would spread over
th-- kingdom. He was not a party man—he had
. strewn as much indei•endence as any man.-in that
Hou-e, and he did not shrink from a "comParison
with any man, however high his charager may. be.
fur independence. He had voted against the son of
the King, and the brother of Mr. Pitt, when he
thought himself justified in-so doing,, and he had
voted 'against Sir F. Burdett, whom he thought a
ten thousand times greater criminal than either:,
He would ;ever defepd the privileges of that House.
It was strange, that if sentiments like those im-
puted to the great body of the People pervaded the
kingdom; that they had no petitions but from places
M:ddlesex ; which, from theh-
fron:-hill, could be. easily akiended by the gentry he
had mentionech
,Seeing clearly. the spirit of these
re oluttonsi.if any man, coupling those with the-peg
tition, cud lay his hand on his heart, and say he
thought it was not the intention of the etitioners
'to insult the House, he would be. justified in sup,
porting if, But if the contrary should appear to
.be
the fact, he hoped, it would be unanimously, ir 41-
most unanimously rejected. Believing it to be. a
studied insult he could opt -vote.forits reception:-
Sir S. ROMILLY thought, whatever ttle.opillion of
the House might be on the Petition, they ought to
come to a cool, deliberate decision.. Their door,*as
the Speaker had said on a former occasion, ought to..
be opened wide to PetitionerS. They ought not to
be extremely difficult as to the terms in whichper-,
Sons thinking thernselves aggrieved might express
themselves. ,It was the juiciest of the :House
to. encourage such appeals. He did not knoW
on what grounds. it' was proposed to rejeal the pe;
tition. The pints considered as: insulting ought
to be Particulatited. He did not know which
Were the offensive parts, though he- had given the
Petitions all the attention in his power. He knew
• Of.no difference between this and the Westminster_
Petition, but that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was for the one and ag:rinst the other. The resolu-
tons that.had been read. from a newspaper they -fiad
had no means of assuring themselves in a regular
way had at,tually.ben come to .be put, admitting
them to be genuine, tho Ugh circumstances furnished

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la tug lug inSulted. The Lord jUslide'ot Eiibm
\vas not afraid of encountering that :assembly.
(la; had passed that way in his carriage without
peoger, and had been received with the greatest res 7
pet.% He believed it was not the intention of the,
Li. It (11 erS to give. any offence, and he did not think
ie:'respeatd. Extraneous matter ought not to be•
tutleOled with it. In the petition itself it. was hard,
ard expression-which, under all the circurre--
t thelit, Was not justifiableee The petition called on
rinnse to believe that no offence was intended ;
th
ethe Right- Hon, Gentleman said it cOntained
tertg but insult. Now why should they wish to in-
Ole House ? Wilfully insulting the House, they
efuld but degrade themselves. They. merely stet-
I4'b•eir humble opinions oh certain points. Al-
the c
nsk " ybWhere
la g tocertain ciw sty in the stession,.
nr dignity ? }`,Where was
It 4r ipstice ?" ecc. All circumstances considered,
E'thought the Right Hon. Secretary would find.
Tlet difficul'y satisfaCtorily answering those
a:7Stions. He Would itsk 'where was their dignity
'.en an Hon,. Friel d. rose to make . his charges
urtaite Members of That Hierse, and when
lilt defended abese.s because they were common.
ia;t petition- 'concluded praying for parliamentery
lernt) and this, though it might surprise (he Right
fir"t'e Gentleman, he could not think.improper. So
lvireen intending insult to that House, the people
eed up to it as their safeguard, and only' waged
,t'
agaiest,eorruption.
Wreesiteoaca•would encourage the people
taPetition 911'0 occasions; but when,' the
e:etnninetitiOnethey presented what, he had almost
in, the language of the law, was calculated.to
o‘LiZ the Efause hate" hatred and contempt." They
lash` not to receive that wind) was stliistantially.
•641,415iVe, because . the. style was guarded. They
Ong
Petitioners) presented it not with a view of
Vlg themselves good, but to do the House evil.
ejir conduta ehewed they had a radical distrust,
bid almost amounted to denying that House fo be a
`panel) of the Legislature., If ever again they mean
ti assert, their dignity, they Ought to reject that peti-
t. He regretted that Gentlemen who sometimes
lipressed concern at the lacguage in which the
e
mlse was addressed, should speak of others as they
-ai. knowing that honest men may take.ditlerent
t:\vs of the .same subje6t ; unless they had reason
tI
• e
think their judgment formed from corrupt Mg-.
14 a, it was not right to express themselves iu such
etltnake as had been used. Oe- the 'question re-
traeOing the late expeditirou he had taken a Middle
He could not .approve of the expedition,
8.1 Could he condemn it in such strong terms as
ao-e Gentlemen did, as being alike repugnant to
eirtbnion sense and -good intention. All lidminis-
-I:ll')na:haci been accused. in a similar way for the
trst thirty years. The Duke of Portland's Aa!minis-
aa'tintr and those of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Foxe had been
in turn charged with incapacity' and want of in-
These charges had become so common,
that they had lost their weight, and being applied
Ir'hevere Administration could not be believed even
just. He was nut insensible of. the excel-
.lll-I'ct of the Coneitntion. When- he knew. great
en had corne7.to this country but little acquainted
tlth its laws, who, astonished at 'meat they saw,
a°44l not but contemplate those principles with won-
ter and admiration produced such happy ef-
• 4b`44, was his opinion of it to be shaken by the
ese of the Vulgar ?:—After a further eulogiune on.
el' Constitution, he concluded, declaring he would
del
wish to reject a petition in which unintentional
CProprier could
of language might appear; but, when
4' 'aw one, which he only consider as a studied
ti,stilt, intended to degrade the House in the eyes of
natiop, he should wish it to be rejected, but in
Ithkh terms as would not deter others from stating
`their
grievances to the House, and -seeking redress
.`their hands.
PONSONBY observed, that having given his
• Ittion respecting the Petitions of Westminster end
oddlesex, and in favour of both, it Would be now
oi
tally inconsistent in him to move for the rejection
r
pthis. ,It he .had -subscribed. to the assertion
ilot this conveyed an insult to the House, he should
• tote accordingly' but as it evidently must appear
144 t it would not be prudent for
.`petitioners to use
ititignage which might be unfavoarabiy interpreted,
no one could suppose that the Livery of London
4:nld approach this House for a reparation of griev-
Vtes, not in the 'language of petition but of insult.
hi, were in truth the case, the House would be
tight in rejecting the Petition ; and the Petitioners
entselves*would labour node` a just reproach, that
iendeavouring to diasuade' the. House from grant-
-4
their -Petition ; it would in tact 'be a method
th tending to perpetuate the grievances which
• they
comPlatned••of. He print:pally, -rose to call
attention' of she House to - certain observe-
\r'lls of an Hon. Gen'lenian behind him. (Mr.
atelle) who had gone over several heads of the
trtioneand dwelt or. that part respecting the Right
Nv;)11. Gentleman opposite, and a Noble Lord, in
ich it says, " where is
,thedigi4ty, where is the
tot', our of the House." ;He bad- to complains not
an'Y.in the present instance, but in tresey others, of
•otl'evidently studied plane() tuisrepres,ne the. con-
et of Members of -- the House.--At the time -the
tr
13'ns'Netion alluded to took pllce, there was a Bill
4. "ittg for the purpose of preventing the conchal
*Mess the Hen. Gentleteeti w ere guilty, and which,
' -`l,l,eY themselves supported. But he would say that
:(,ery one on his side of the House reprobated stleit
litnduet, and. conferred on it the scandal it me-
i4ed• There was therefore neither truth nor justice
• sti the representation that' the 'How;e countenanced
8401 measurek. These inisrepreFeeltatiens, so oppo-
e,et° truth, were reduced to the system, that all
k uue men .should by looked onfas
.opt; s•s
_reors and
peculators of the country. In a word, the public
F'ere taught to believe, that Garitlemen. of -finally,
wottune, and education, who had spent their Jives,
ti:thout reproof, that. all this had 110, value, gave
to
no title to charaeter ; but that they' were ready
'.'estlrrender every claim to integrity fir a place or a
How unhappy, deluded, nay what fools
I(iist the, people be, if they believed such language.
r his part, he would say, there was integOty in
e blouse trough and there might be an opposi-
tion'pr.'i sentiments, he must have other
nie before he would condemn. Healluded to
thee i
to' •Lord Spillers, when the House of
' ninons curried 'an -mPeachment agaipst him
be dt.he Lords.; yet he did not believe him to
cl 4 Isho.nest; nor had he such an opinion of Lord
• ePid6ll, elthough'he carried tou far the rights of
•

PeclOg'atiVe j oh tad. -66hfeAry, be thought he fen-
dered the gpreatest Serves after the civil war, when
such mimics were brOught on, and hi those too;
let it be recolleded, who pretended they alone pos...
sessdd ail _the virt,tes, and alloAcd none to
It was then ready to be -voted that Charles shdUld
possess an annuity, independent of Parliamtnt. Lord
Clarendon interposed,• and said, that though he was
an advocate for the rights of prerogative, yet he
would never consent to destroy. the dependence of
the King on the- Parliament, Toe Hon. IVlernber
331. i; he was not disposed .to deny integrity to arty
one; if his suspicion fell any Nyher.e, it would rather
be on those who ever seemed forward 'to attribute
every virtue to thethselves. He never knew _any
man to cl:tim•favour for himself by misrepresenting
others,whom he did not afterward know to be worse
than t hose 'he accused.

WARDLE, in explanation, said, that his state-
ment was, that the House had defended its conduct
on the grounds of the practice beir,g well known.
A division was then called for, when there ap-
peared—

For Receiving the Petition
Against it

Majority

PENAL LAWS.

1-2:8
-792

Sir S. ROIqILLY rose according" to notice, and
stated that what .he was going to propose was not to
alter, but to carry into execution laws which•already
existed. It was not his intention to. snrprise the
House ; if it was its pleasure,, it might postpone the
decision till it_ had taken time to consider on the me-
rits of what he was about to advance; it was a
measure not less important than that which lie had
already proposed. The ebio-t of punishments was
to prevent the commission of crimes, and this by
three methods; Ist, by
.terror of punishMent ; e)cl",
by putting it out of the power of an individual to
commit Crimes; and 3d, by the reformation of the
offender. With the exception,of some comity goals,
this last mode could be seldom found to exist here.
A system of reform had been proposed, to put which
in execution was; with the consent of the House,
his intention: It was necessary to take a view:of
the circumstances relAite to the transportation of
convi&s to New South Wales. It Was not till the
time of Charles 11. after the Restoration, that trans-
portation itself Was first adopted and carried into ef-
feet' ; those criminals who were clergyable. were sent
to North Aineeica.. The first case,is instanced in
Justice Keeliog's Reports, which were well worthy
the attention of the House He saysethat •' those
persons were not sent away as perpetual slaves, but
to work for 'seven years in
.th'e plantations.‘ The,
three-last of which they received wages, in order to
enable, them to'raise a .steek for defraying the ex-
pellees, of their return Ironic:: It will tre seen that
this was carefully attended to till the 4th of George.
L then. transportation was first adopted for persons
• guilty of petty ,larceny. Grand larceny, it was
known, was the denomieatiOn for all robberies above
the value of twelve-pence, while every thing under
' that value was ceded petty larceny. In- this way
things rested, till the revolution in America render-
. ederansportation there-imposSible: Pretioes tothis,
he wished 'to observe,. that certain persons had been
contraeted. with there to receive the.convitts bound
by.indentures, so that. by this means the poor were
Subjeaed,tO labour ; bet the rich were oniy
as 1114 had it in their pewer yepurchase their sla-
very. In 1776, when open War was declar'ed, the
sew system was adopted ; before that, however,:in
1776, the power was first of employing eon-
to labour in the- duck-yards, or on board the
hulks. In 1779; an Ad aParliament was passed,
giving power to transport convids to any part of she
world, at the same. time it embraced another objeet,
that of estahlishitig a mode of imprisonment at once
tenclibg to cultivate; habits of industry and improve
the morals; so that at the close of imprisonment,
the individual would come forth reformed. The vir-
tue of this Act-had been framed 'by persons whose
names commanded resped—Mr. Howard, Lord
Auckland, and Judge Blackstone ; the latter, in an
edition of his Conitnenteries, which he published
shortly after, observed, that the prime objects of the
plan which had been formed, vereto enforce labour
andctiltivate religious instruction; to preserve the
health and reform the habits of Offenders by accus-
tomirig them to se ious refiettion. The House must
be surprised to INar that this: ..Ae(l remained a dead
letter for 3.1 years since it was instituted. nothing
bad been dor*, an7i it was now a monument of the
wisdom of those who framed it, and a reproach- to
those who neileaed it. - Meanwhile the project of
transportation to New South Wales was adopted,
which he would venture tu say was the boldest and
Most unpromiheg ever undertaken ; it was a proje&
for influeecing the hearts of, mankind ; of establish-
.ing a colony from• the refuse of society ; not like the
transportation 'to North America, which, from the
population of ehis country, was but a drop of water
in
sthe-ocean. •Every one Must acknowledge the
difficulty of establishing. a colony without diligence
and' zeal in the undertaking; and how this could be
accomplished by those who were sent out on that
expedition is truly wonderful. It was in February,
1787, than 267. persons were first 'embarked, and
those were 'selected from the hulks, a place more
calculated to increase guilt ; et preSent indeed it was
. better. regulated- 'ln this statement he was justified
by a Report of a Coimnittee of thai House, which
declares that among the circumstances which coil-
tributed to the•increase of ciime, the system of the,
hulks was' a:greatesource e they termed them semi-
naries for vice-and wicke,ieees. At-.that lime the
number of persons on board. amounted to 1449.
Another 'part of. the Ri,pott coederans.the method
of mixing the hardy.offenders of the town with those
who came 'train the country, who were so sunk in
despondence that they were ready to put an end to
their existence, till by communication with the, of-
fenders of the metropolis, they: were completely
herderied in iniquity. Instead of sendiegperSons to
the colony who were acquainted with a country
Us, those embarked in February 1787, and in Jut e
1709, were iseleeit.d from the criminals cif London
and:Middlesex. 'ln proof of all this he co dded-
duce the publication of Mr. Collins, who was a
papegyriSt of this system. Great anxiety seems to
have been used to keep the prisciners in New Soeth
Wales, and it apPears that in the next embarkation it
was expressly stipulated, that none; of the prisoners
should be brought back ; one man who had a' wi;o
and child there would not be allowed to' return tin-
less he could provide for teem. In the year isnt
this system was carried to such an cxent,
persons who had already suffered six, and were sell-.

ten-ded for years, wd.o ti•arsp farted to t otafir
-Bay, and 'what makes this remark Ile is, that seven
different embarkations had taken p lace during that
period; and all 'been suffered to r thss by without
sending those couviEts. That th is should be al,
lo,Ved to prevail with the men is unjust; but it is
particularly so iri respe& to the wo, Lea, who have
not like them the power of .worki,ig their -pagsage
back. The Whole history of the Colony, since its
establishment, 'displayed the great-est enorniiiies.—
With respect to sending bop On 'board: the hulks;
what had the State to ansWer f r, v then their morals
were there Irretrievably ruined?—liThe etfed of all
.thiS may not be so much felt by u t as' by posterity;
we are in faEL peoOng the South` Sea Islands with
villainy; many conviCts, as, it app from the mis-
sionaries, have become Chiefs of t StPiagCSj bdVd
illStrtletO them in theprinciplcsoi Navigation, and.
are in faEt makit theft) a nest, of pirates. The ex-.
pease attending it was enormous in 1797, it ex-
, ceeded a million ; the estatAisluner it of Pcnitentiary
Houses would be comparativel y trif3ing. He
thought it to be the greatest pocrisy for this`.
House tp have given its, thanks, old the City of
London to have erected a Menunient to Mr. Ho-
ward, and still allow every thing to remain as it was.'
Terror of death would have but little effe6.l. in the
presentlax state of the police. H t deprecated the
idea of solitary imprisonment, win th he considered
severer thrin any
.death, and concliated by moving,
" That ail humble Address be pl-e4cmted to his Ma-
jesty, that he would be graciously! p:eas...d, to give
directions for carrying into executi.tm_-the 10th
of his reign, relating to PenitenticAry H9LIVeS, and,
for the execution of the 34t h of his reign, for ereta-
ing the same,'' &c. •

Mr. RYDER concurred with many of the propo-
sitions advanced by the Learned Gentleman. He
had taken every ypains in his power to lay a state-
ment before the House respeeting this subjea: He
wished to make a few' observations. on the Hon.
Gentleman's assertions respecting' the hulks. s At ,
the time the Committee of Finanke made this re-
port, they were certainly in a lad state; but at pre-
sent it would be but justice to Mr. Graham, the
Magistrate, to state, that by his exertions a system,
the most unadvised; was.cotiverted Mt° one the
most salutary ; and it was nose remarkable for regu-
larity and good conduct. and it• was in the power of '
any Gemtletnan to make any inquiries he might
think fit. There was, he said, much force in the
observations of the Learned Gentleman, but it' was
impossible to remedy‘mauy of; the evils. _ In the
first vlace, it was impossible to separate the pri-
soners, and there were many oneboard, the hulks,
from the state of their, health, incapable of working;
`every attention however was paid to avoid thiS, but
•the t!eparation of the prisoners was impossible--a.
subordinate advantage arose from this system,.which
wa,„ that it was very economical. At present it is:
estimated, at the average -price, that the labour of
the con‘ jets detrays half of the w hole expellee. The
excellence of their \A orkmanshipnearly compensated
for the rest. -SOll he thought the system should be
ultimately abandoned. Ile hoped the
_Horh
tleman would not bring on the decision on .an early
day. He perfelaly agreed with. the, necessity of a
Penitentiary for Females. . - •
- Mr. FRANK LAND thought that the House and the
Country were much indebted to liis Honourable
Friend for laying his ideas on- the subject before
them. He advocated the modeof transportation to
Botany Bay, which he hoped Migio never be aban
dolled,; and thought that, his Learned Friend's sys-
tem might partly be adopted 'by existing materials,
namely, by the hulks, which he'approved,-and the
number of which he said might be increased.
Mr. WILBERFORCE 'bore testimony to the merits
Of 'Mr. Graham, the Superintendant of the con-
yiLls on board the hulks. The system by which
penitentiary houses • were 'erected was devised
hyemen long acqoainted with the praCtice, who
had deeply studied, and who were consequently
enabled to form, a correct opinion as to the geeie-
° ral.oood effects to be dekived from this system. As
to New South Wales, that establishment he had
reason to know was ill-conducted at its first for,
mation. The .religions institutions had not been
property attended to; indeed the most utter con-
tempt •had been shewn by the inhabitants to those.
institutions. Much praise hoWever was due to Lord
Castlereagh, who;durii)g the last. year, had appoint-
ed a Governor, who was taking every means in his
power to remedy the evil, by directing particular at-
tention to be paid to. the religious institutions, and
it was hopt d the most salutary benefits would ensue
to.-the unfortunate colony. Under this impression,
he!thougf,t it would be desirable not to give up the
'plan of sending:convids to that Settlement ; but be
suggested, that the most propr eonvids to send
would be those who of necessity mmrst be sent oat of
the country for ever. So long as they kept an.eye
on this country; and eXpeCted the period of'tneir
return, they would be unhappy, and cOutl not be
expected to be. settled, or 'to pay any .attent on to re-
ligious instruction, . He, hoped .the system. which
the Learned Gentleinare had in view would be car-
ried into etTecit ; because, he- was convinced of its
good tendency. The Hon. Gentleman recornmerid-
ed-to the attentive .perusal of Gentlemen the Re-
port of tie. Committee on these subjects. • He then
noticed the. State of the gaol of Newgate, which, he
observed, was not only. a reproach to the City of
London, but to the country.. The manners and
• morals of the prisoner's, from the crowded •skate- of
that, pOson, were so contaminated; that it wag im-
possible to amend them. Religious instruction was
thrown away, and those 'who were. committed for
:offences, to the commission of which they were nut
hardened, came out of prison finished and consum-
mate villainS. He recommended the state of this
' prisoO to the attention of the House, and• hoped,-- as
his .aNications would not permit him, that some
other Gentleman would institute an inquiry and en-
deavour to-prodUce some alteratido.
- Mr. Witsranam did not object to the proposition
of the Learned Gentleman, which he hoped might
produce the good effeCts which were expected. He'
observed that, t he Settlement as, a colony of thieves,
• sent there beeaue perhaps they had neirlier m-mey
• nor friends to proted them. Although at the first,.
as the Hon. Gentleman who spoke -last had-Slated,
it bore an unpromising aspect, yet the endeavour tO
to ieform not be hastily given up. With
Jespea to the penitentiary houses, tliat system, as
,ltu, understood, was already established, for .the
Owie-country is full of those .houses, and there-
fore it trust be hoped the practical effed intend-

•
ed would the hpfeattig
ligioti among the convicts; the HOrt. GentletiLid
Said he was 'rather jealous of the institution, be:.
tauie; insteid of being a syslern of itnprtyrement;
it tkrould be one•of fanaticism, so tlrat the conviMit
under it would exhibit a mixture of aliginal profii;.
gacy and of thieyery and hypotrisy.
Sir W. MiLNitt thought the. measure of the
-Learned Gentleman would not be..advcintaggons W
the colony. The Hon. Baronet stated; that in thd
boases in Yorkshire the harder. Men
worked the more Money they were entitled to;
which was retained for their use until the period .of
their Confinement expired, when it was paid 'to
them. This; was a wise proeeed.
ing, and tended greatly to reform the Manners of
the prisoners.
Mr. W. POLE said; he was not in the House
when the Honourable and Learned Gentled an be-
gan his speechi but *he bad heard enough Of it to
know that his proposition *tA entitled to the must

serious eougideratio.rL felt the advantages which
the public; were Weaq to derive from a lull invosti-,
_ .

gation of this subjea, because he had, in lii o:fit...jai
situation in Ireland,' had Mn opportunity of esainin-
ing'attentively the -rases of persons sentenc,d td
transportation. He did not hear What the Hon.

Gentleman had Said ahotit siz.nding prisonerg to Bo-
tany Bay, but he was..stire, if that .s3,sti4zi was pro-
dtxtive-Of evil in this country; it w-as'pr6tiu(cti:•e of
ulna greater, evil in Ireland.. When he had; in tre
disc::u.geofhis duity,xionined into the Lases of rise
criminals in Ireland, under sentence of trabgporin:
tion, hefimnd numbers of them in a stay of t e
greatest misery and wretchedness.. It was inn;-6s,i

i;le for the Government here to provide vesselS, a 3
oftee, as might be necessary, to convey pr;soners tos •
Botany Bay, and the consequence was, that there
were Many-Cenvias who had been in gaol, when he ,
made his inquiry, two, three, four, and five yea'ts,
under sentence of transportation. The situai ion cif
these unfortunate people was wretched beyond de"-
serietion, but the Means of relief were not. easy to
be found. It appeared,' hoWever, that was a
Law in Ireland which had nearly become obsoicte,
which -gave Government the -power; _under c, rta ti •
circumstances, Of 7.commuting transportation- f r
imprisonment.-- There -were, at- the, time
hee was alluding to, • about sixty fern de-t; and
between fifty and. sixty males, in Deblin,
under tules of transportation, many 'of whoin had
been -along-period in,' prison. Upon an apiAica ti on
to the Judge's for their opinion, they stated, that Ce
period which these unfortunate leings had-passed in .
prison could not be taken into account in their sen- •
tence of tsanSpertaticie. The Lerd Lieutenant con::
ceived this to be iicase worthy of:11113 most
attention, and upon application to the proper aive
thOritieS, lie ordered 'every possible inquiry to be_
Made into thee subject,
_and it appeared that th -re,
-was a law in existence which afforded the means of
relief. The. Lord Lieutenant did then, in pursuance
of the authority with which he was invested, elect
Penitentiary Houses in different parts of the city of .
Dublin, and removed the convicts from that sate
of misery, in Wihichlieehad described them to be,
into those houses,- 'placing them under such care as"
afforded a rational ground to hope that their murals
Would be
improved,.and explaining to them, that if-
they conducted-themselves in a proper manner, -
,
sentence-of transportation would be commuted for
,
imprisonment. -He had now the satisfiction of
stating, -that this % experiment had most folly
answered: ' The sixty female contiets, who had
been confined in Newgate in cells. of twelve
fet square, ten or- twelve of them in a' cell, in
a state.of the most abject misery, and had been
in that wretched conaion for two, three, or
four years, were removed from, their cells, and
placed in the Penitentiary House ; and he had the
satisfaCtion of'stating, that it appeared.. from the
weekly returns which he • received respelling these
persons, that the greatest reformation had been ef-
fealed—they were now cloathed, employed in dif- •
ferent kinds of work, and were regularly attended
either by Protestant Clergymen or'llomao Catholic
Nests, acCording to their religion. They had be-
come industrious, and so anxious were they to be
employed, (hat they aetually drew lots for the looths
and other materials, with which they were not sup
plied in sufficient abundance. Such, was the change
in the condo& of these unfortunate people, that .
there was every- reason to hope, that; at the expiry-.
' lion of their terms, they might be restored, C0m....
pletely reformed, to society. The same plan-had
been adopted with regard to the male convicts, and
with equal success. With this knowledge upon the
subject, he was 'strongly impressed, With-the belief
that the proposition of the Hou. Gentleman might
be prodnaive of the greatest advantages/ and he
was convinced, that when Gentlemen turned their
attention to this subjeel, they would find it more easy
to accomplish, 'than they thigt.f..it first suppose,.
The present Lord, Lieutenant
shad also taken advan-
tage of another LaW, Which enabled him to te-ea
Penitentiary HoUses for Jtivenile Male Convias, a,d
this measure had also prodUced the most beneficial.
result's. Many of those uufortunate beings, who
would have remained .in•Newgate, and ,have had,
every moral feeling completely destroyed by ex tin
pies of every species of.human depravity, had been,
by the adoption of the system he bad alluded to
completely refotmed. :This plan- had been
:sally adopted by Lord Hard wicke, but. had been.
mucti improved and extended by the ,pre 'see t Lord
Lieutenant ; and a Penitentiary House had also been
ereCled for Juvenile 'Female Convias. •the
'which -he had introduced. respetiting Gaols in ,Ire-
Land, there was a clause to enable the Lord Lieute-
milt to establish 'Penitentiary Houses, under cer-
tain regulations. He had inserted th.v.elothe,
cauSe it appeared to him, that if the Governmeat
had the power to establish Penitentiary floases,-tt e
necessity might in -a great degree be saved, of send:, •
ing conviels out •of the Kingdom.- One of the
greatest difficulties in 'the way Of i his-plan of reform
was, that if the Morals of a convict laecatne ever so
-thoroughly reformed, still he was turned out into so-
ciety with a stain upon his character.' InDublin; how-
ever, they possessed one advantage, which he kk Oilld
mention, in order that the Hon.. Gent, might tern
his.attention to it. There was in Dublin one insti-
. ttition• called the " House of Industry," Into whiCh .
every pauper might- get admission, or if they did
not choose to enter, they might obtain relief. Tt.e
Governors. of the House of IndUsti'y had' ch ertully
of their assistance in superintetidir,g the con-
, duct of `those placed in the Penitentiary Houses.

I

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