The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

description of food; especially when in distant climates.
He thought greater facilities should be afforded to the
soldier for going out of the army and returning home
to see his friends. He disapproved of one part of the
warrant'of 1829—that part which enabled the soldier to
have a gratuity when discharged. When the soldier
could commute his pension for an immediate gratuity,
the natural improvidence of his habits too often induced
him to-sactiiice future comfort for present gratification,
a step which he ever afterwards regretted. With refer-
ence to the charge in the army estimates now before
the Honse, regarding the troops serving abroad, he must
say that: :he, in .a great measure, disapproved of it.
.It.,_was incumbent on him,' before he sat down; to say a
''reVrwords on the management Of the commissariat. It
was impossible to pass this by without Saying that, in
his opinion, the administration of the commissariat un-
der the Treasury—no matter whether it Was' when Hon.
Gentlemen opposite were in office, or when his (Lord
Howick's) friends were—had ever been in the highest
degree unsatisfactory. It was impossible it could. be
otherwise. The load of business which pressed upon
the joint Secretaries for the Treasury was so great, that
it was impossible for them to give an efficient superin-
tendence to this branch of the military service and the
control of it consequently fell into the hands of certain
number of clerks of the Treasury. They did their best,
according to their judgment, no doubt ; but still they
had not that authority which permitted an effective con-
trol, and so, the Horse Guards being unchecked, followed
on in the Old routine system,. and the result was a la-
mentable want OE economy in the expenditure of money,
and a ravish Waste of the health and comfort of the
troops. .As evidence in support of his position, he
would advance one or two statistical facts. For 20 years
following the peace, up to 1835, in what was called the
Windward and Leeward Islands command, on an average
strength. of 1,090 men, there had been an .annual
mortality of 93 men, whilst the annual mortality
on the same 'number of men at home was 15. In the
West Indies, the total loss of men was the frightful
numbei• of 6,800, not one of whom, let it be remembered,
perished in battle, but simply and solely from disease
induced by the climate and the shard administration of
the commissariat, Disease of course was, to a certain

degree, the inevitable consequence of the climate, indeed,

he sincerely believed that that was a danger requiring
more courage to face than the greatest and deadliest
war. Now, where climates were so deleterious, it was
doubly requisite that every precaution should be taken to
arrest that mortality, and to make every effort to preserve
the health of the troops. And yet five days in each week
would it be believed salt provisions were given out in these
burning climates? He could cite a still stronger case than
that. During the 'whole six years we had a large garri-
son in St. Helena, in order to guard Napoleon, no fresh
provisions whatever were given out to the troops—they
had uniformly and entirely salt provisions. The morta-
lity during these six years was 34 men in every 1,000;
being, rather more than double the rate of mortality in
the mother country. And this, be it recollected, was not
in an unwholesome climate like the West Indies, but in a
really healthy place. In the Mauritius salt provisions
were given out every other day to the troops—whereas,
here, and, indeed, in many other places he could enu-
merate, where the salt-provision practice obtained, fresh
provisions • were actually to be obtained at a less price.
He could show that not only in regard to the lives of the
soldiers, bnt in point of expense, a vast saving might
have been effected had the administration of the com-
missariat been only on a proper footing and efficiently
controlled. This was no party question, and he spoke
not in a party sense. The blame attached to Lord Liver-
pool's administration, to the Duke of Wellington's, to

the Reform administration—in short, to every Govern-
ment that had existed, including the present one. He
blamed not individuals, but the system which placed
the commissariat administration in the hands of persons
who had no other military duties to perform' and
did not truly understand military exigencies. With
these facts before them, he thought the time was come

when a better system should be arranged ; for to leave
it as at present, under the Treasury, was only to per-
petuate evils which had lasted far too long. He felt
obliged, by the opportunity which had been afforded
him, of making these remarks, and should conclude by
expressing his intention of voting against the proposed
reduction of the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Wil-
liams), and in favour of the vote proposed by the Right
Hon. and Gallant Secretary at War (Sir H. Hardinge).
Mr. P. HOWARD would vote in favour of the Go-
vernment if a division took place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt
bound, as the Noble Lord had made a severe attack
upon the commissariat department, to say a few words.
He was fully prepared to discuss with the Noble Lord
the propriety of keeping up a commissariat department
in connexion with the Treasury. It was a department of
account, and, in that respect, it came under the control of
those who had the management of the financial affairs
of the country. He was satisfied that the commissariat
department, as now established, added to, and did not
diminish the comfort of, the troops, and besides which, a
considerable saving to the public had been effected. Ho
felt convinced that if the details of the commissariat

department accounts were referred to the War-office,
they would be as unable to undestand them as the
officers of the Treasury.
Mr. F. BARING bore testimony to the intelligence
of the officers connected with the commissariat depart-
ment. With reference to the removal of the estimates
from the army to the commissariat department, he
should not object to it provided the Secretary-at-War
had the same power of checking the accounts as formerly.
lie was not prepared to go' into particular cases, but he
thought there was a great advantage in the Secretary at
War having the power of examining and checking the
accounts. It was not a question of jealousy between the
War-office and the commissariat ; though the Secretary
could not himself overlook all the accounts, they might
be, as they wero formerly, under the inspection of two
comptrollers.
Sir J. CAM HOBITOITSE trusted the Hon. and
'Gallant Officer opposite would hesitate before he changed
the scale of pensions of 1833. It was made with the
full sanction of the Government of Earl Grey, and was
drawn up with the most anxious care. Every pains was
taken to make the calculations sound. He deprecated
these discussions on such points.
Sir H. lIARDINGE said the discussion had, in a
great measure, originated with the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite. The far greater number of soldiers—ninety-
nine out of one hundred—were
.discharged on account

of being unfit for service, not being able to march a day
with 601bs. on their backs ; under the present war-
.

rants, these discharged men could only receive
one shilling a day for twenty-seven years' service.
Out of 27,000 men in the regiments now in England,
there were only two men who had served twenty-eight
years. A soldier might be perfectly healthy, and yet,
through not being able to carry the required weight,
unfit for duty. Whatever might be his private opinions,
he would endeavour to obtain the best information he
could, and, after submitting it to the Government, leave
them to act as they thought best.
Dr. BOWRING supported the amendment, and ob-
served, that having always resisted an increase in the
army, he was still prepared to minimize it to the greatest
possible extent.
_ _

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
ouse divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ....
For the amendment

114

Majority for the motion —lo2
Colonel RAWDON thought the Government could
spare 5,000 men to the country. He therefore moved
that there be a reduction of 5,000 men.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said that the present number of
men were actually necessary for the relief of the troops
in the colonies
Colonel RAWDON then withdrew his motion.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that according to the Act
under which the pensioners were enrolled in Ireland a
warrant was to be issued, specifying the number of
persons enrolled, and the districts to which they be-
longed, and that that warrant was to be laid on the table
of the House twenty-one days after the commencement
of the session of Parliament, and he thought the House
and the country ought to get that information to which
they were entitled. . _ _

Sir 11. HARDINGE had laid on the table the only
warrant that had been issued on the subject to whicE
the Hon. Gentlemen referred.

After some further discussion, the vote was agreed to.
On the motion for granting 3,431,7641., for defraying
the charges of her Majesty's land forces for the service
-of the United Kingdom,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the charge of 82,0001.
for small beer. The charge for last year was 71,000 L,
whilst that for 1836 was only .61,000/. He 'would be
glad to know what was the cause of the increase.

Sir 11. HAIMINGE said a penny, a day had been
given to every soldier on home service for many years
past; and the addition was in consequence of several
regiments having returned recently from abroad.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the contingent allow-
ances to captains.

Sir H. HARDINGE said this allowance was the same
as had been allowed for many years past.
Colonel SIBTHORP thought .it would be better if
Hon. Members opposite would confine themselves to
subjects with which they were familiar. To his certain
knowledge, the two items referred to had been included
in the votes for the last sixteen years.—(Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the Chairman re-
port progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the motion.

After a few words from Sir H. HARDINGE, which
were not heard in the gallery, the motion was agreed to.
and the House resumed.

The Report was then brought up and agreed to, when
he House adjourned, at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock.

Ma. BARNARD GREGORY.—This gentleman, who,
it will be recollected, is now undergoing his term of impri-
sonment in Newgate, has long been (says a correspondent)
in a declining state of health ; and it is stated that unless a
favourable change takes place, there is great doubt whether
he will live out the term of his sentence. Mr. Gregory is al-
lowed every accommodation afforded to prisoners similarly
situated in the prison, and does not appear to suffer much
from the.. effect of his confinement. The complaint un-
der which he labours is believed to be an internal affection of
long standing.—Sunday Paper.

UNLICENSED SPORTING.—On Saturday, at the
Hammersmith Police Court, William Stone, a boy, fifteen
years of age, living in School-house-lane, Chiswick, was fully
committed by Mr. G. Clive, the sitting Magistrate, to New-
gate for trial on three charges of stealing a fine live cock,
eight live pigeons, and a live black hen, from different per-
sons in the neighbourhood of Hammersmith. There were
several other charges of a similar nature against the prisoner,
but they were not gone into. It appeared he always carried
pieces of bread and some barley with him, with which, under
the pretence of feeding fowls, pigeons, &c., he enticed them
into a by place, and then contrived to bag them.
A veteran Tory, when dying at Durham, on Sun-
day last, observed to a friend that he had "made his peace
with God and all mankind; shortly after which, he hur-
riedly inquired--" By the by, have they hanged O'Connell
yet ?"