The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-12 00:00:00

.
venth hour, he should have introduced suggestions, and
recommended measures, that would have been so much
more in place at the period a hen railway speculations
first commenced? He agreed with the Noble Lord that
it would, indeed, be • xceedingly difficu't to find in. that
Howe impartial individuals- Members uneonm CO d
either directly or indirectly with these schemes. He
stoold like to see the subject fairly investigated, and
therefore he had on a former night asked the Noble Lord
thethe Chancellor of the l)nchy of Lancaster, how far these
gentlemen-men of character they were-he granted
•
3 were rm n of integrity-how far they were con-
nected 'with railways? These gentlemen must found
their epinions on party statements, themselves having no
k,newledge of the country through which the projected
'lnes were intended to pass. Be woutti a,k the Noble
Lard who had suggested improvements in the system,
...if he himself was totally free from prejudice-, or from a
1,-?,nnelinti with some of these projected lines ? For
---nu waself (Colonel Sibthorp) he had never been,
' would not be connected with any railway ;
and for this reason, that, if called upon by
n 4t, House to sit as a juror on some of these
Prnlects,
Lordship he might at least be an impartial one. His
8
had, he (Colonel Sibthorp) believed, corre-
Nnded with a Mr. Had. on, and objected to some line
'eeetnraend, el by that gentleman, on the ground that it
Would be near his Lordship's residence, Maack Hall,
Itilwadathatt therefore, on that account, the line, however
well suited to the wants of the district in other respects,
was inadiniasib!e. With these remarks he would con-
elude, but he hoped that the Noble Lord would explain
pleased s yeas
for delayin the suggestions he had been
that night to mae• le.
614 r. GISBOBNE said, that the Bill of last ses,ion had
:/fen considerably modified in its passage through that
use, and at last it had been pas,ed by a sort of tacit
ti;Ealprotoise between the opposing parties. He thought,
rash! re, that the policy embraced by it ought nut
ta-"IY to he interfered with, and theref are he could not
pree to the opinions advanced by his Honourable
Th':ll7,(l ,the Member for Greenock upon the subject. 1
4 vivid Lordte Alember for Sunderland had given
tevri.`" ascription of the difficulties which he said in-
of erred with the decisions of the House on the matter
thatt,Projeeted limes but he Mr. Gishorne) thought
laeLluae Very facility With which the Noble Lord had
most them, was a proof that they were not of the
vet.; ';eieus'character. The Noble Lord had spok. n
Itojr„'eelingly of the expenses incurred by the pro-
ds o -.8 "some of' these schemes, before they could be
tha-,tght before Parliament, and alleged the hardship of
the-',„.h-jection by the Board of Trade-but what was
ejaetlense to do ? How could they, in that House, de-
thev upon the merits of competing lines ? How were
11,14' say what railway communication should or
That
he given to such or such
shoulda place,be or by
Ther n.le that communicationmade ?
at hey
depend upon it that advantages
bra a" respective lit es would be best tested
braae- ceaunissien ' constituted as was the Board of
,„.aoe d' , With respect to the powers vested in that
hvietrs "37 the Act of Parliament of the 3:: and 4th
'ott-'lL' Cap. 9, he should, with the permission of' the
boa leeB2. read such part of the Act as related to those
trarl•a' and also those given by the subsequent Act of
"opal „en, t• The Act directed that no railway should
abtiC'he" for traffic without at least a month's previous
Pc4era"teing given to the Board of Trade ; and it
heem-
Nia,;(' the Board to suspend, in certain cases,
ltliop:gef such railway. The Board could also empower
P."'y oti°rB to examine the railways and carriages, and a
sent t the bye-laws of each company was directed. to
ttlktth:°,thern for their approval. The Act also directed
a.attiar `Beard should have the power of ordering a re-
htae tee traffic. and the rates and charges on each line.
rtitaidtTd Powers of a somewhat similar character, were
',llLettal 'n.rthe Board b 3 the Act of Parliament he had
tCada `n the last session these powers were somewhat
tilie su• it being directed, in the first place, that all
triaraa3esfar'hould be submitted to a Committee of the
'III hut rade, who should report to Parlinment upon
ager' whose report was not to be considered final.
'''lliretlilasitherefore. nothing in the resolution to prevent
it_altaiiieeetnes coining before the House, whether the
•at atee ...a .
rn't 14
(I._.a the Board of 'Trade reported favourably or
),tit, e la not find anything either in the Act of Pa.rlia-
'ere in °l' Could he find that the Railway Committee
Il°,l Its ll? way authorised to publish in the Gazette
killlM'stA,l"'. r
agains't particular.. lines of railway. He
ellsttlat,-17' mat the object originally designed by the api-
thatitsalatiottief the Committee was an investigation. and
ne 'lla of facts.-(Hear, hear.) A committre. of
ft ..i.p.,
11,:itaih,:'," bad come to the conclusion that the decision
jiittirejti-tiltiway Committee of' the Board of Trade should
'"• 'eel' Ce the claims of private persons. Great
tnitt:ci re,sulted from the proceedings of the Sub-
thtla bee',. the public had been under the impression
ket'°+ ara-04,eeess that the decisions of the Committee of
totf,`cio kt Trade would be supported by the Govern-
alai-144e 5u.).°11., they considered them all but final and
ket Male It was true the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
'4Bl4), blVelled the delusion on the first night of the
had linos great mischief had previously resulted.
abil kis Which the Committee reported in favour of,
ttieisit til' shares greatly increased in price,
,the ;3 might reported against, whatever their
,Icelisja't,'''' be, received a great discouragement from
'll tillth ..8 of the Board of Trade. It resembled a
gastit did-e to r
t,rmra There was quite as much' speculation,
7 k;tteli 1,,,- -in the-e respects, that the amount at stake
qtir°%ao 1,-rger, and that the event of the race could not
bt4,ll.*tty entil it was over, whilst the decisions of the
,Itot,,nhea nrattittee became known before they were
~,-tilr to—„ricliear, hear.) He did not attribute any dis-
iktitleyea 4 Member of that Committee, far from it,
S!he as iii:utin to be men of integrity and honour ;
I, etise;-",Possible for any man not to see that, in
SNetvaes f-"ae decisions of the Board of Trade, respect-
w,,N'y rtttilwaY, were predicted with a degree of
eight
%Ira, at i . ',lth a secret, it was very. hard, to pre-
herat le. 1)71iolable privacy which was in this case so
Isllttaea 'nttle men- lost their memorandum-books ;
Aalstl „ Were a
%ale% la th„. 'ommunicative to their.
„44,,,uy ~,h-lr sleep In short, there
.were several
t;q4:equholi-t"a'nell a secret, might be divulged in such a
b,tti , rot,,itt Y breach of honour or duty on the part
Othilasaeli , ee• Unless there was any great advan.
OitChile ton arrangement as the present, it was not
0%1411 air, subject a body of men to the odium and
iLit(ilitTettlto joeiin,!.tteli a situation entailed. It was very
there 1, °An Lees-In he public where such temptations
tiip•sen_rtan presented themselves, and above
XOO had had 44 heeh'tieh was to be gained by disclosure, that
Sltitzbehlieee;ttofitlse dealing.' The grossest imputa-
e „ Ivn upon the Board of Trade, and he
Zit4hltalative- "'at any good they could effect would
la.re,arereat:. the distrust their decisions would in-
t:alls44s of ine4gain, he did not believe it possible, with.
Vt"), th;,atal rrtnation which the Committee had at its
;15,5,3 theyt— opportunities they had for investiga-
ititvtheiati, that
tehould decide with a full knowledge of the
titaat tl altbst
„e,.Y could make their decisions respected
to.'tir)Pt,tt.'", npro-n"2O um Ine is and justice. How could
tpl, a/140N.. Lac respective merits of 240 projected
tAjeYti a.,'
,Tu 11,4 every part of England, Ireland, and
fot,„"hiti"Jild4o7. sure they had maps and ordnance
4)1710a were a_retnt and the testimony of witnesss,
li ,al,ll ten "as wiese
things where the fullest local in-
4,,sitniie4ribestiareiquisite? lie thought some less objec-
lek.,r4ett laoratnight be devised than the present, and
xtNt„ titait,a;e:'.eri that the Committee of the Board
Cta,r. et% nE,v'e"eg to themselves a power which the
Vaitt4t Wol,l,litentled they should assume.
Illt:t to q thel lIEY said he considered that the
kt-t Nprl'arlie_ Board of Trade had been appointed to
,kktsNri,9,?eedingleht the merits of rival schemes, and
`litaelitil:nlate tags woold be conducted in such a manner
lta.' 0 7sBist 'e confidence f the public and be of 1
4t,l•sio a'lee to th
et, 1,,f tis h,,p, ellouse(.lßut when they published
tf tta,, are the `'re they were communicated to Parlia
044,7, e kooa, gr"ands upon which they arrived at them
''llikjNvelf4int. "Htl' he thought the public had just cause
tit t 4 , the N. could not, however, approve of the
alt,lle:ll.,°,le tiorehnle Lord the Member for Sunderland.
aarNav°4 the dad admitted the propriety of deciding
tqLtotikit
,thaire dlfferent schemes, and the impolicy of
7uy,..deeioittlis heeeesideTation to another year ; but
kl cal ed b ''ne, it the whole 250 projects were
I‘'
' ‘th
Y anYhis ' • the
Olfal Yee by
I one tribunal? In- opinion
4, the intaan. tynight be, which was to decide upon
ktilk‘htlltiatn'eferenicelletiolla; ought to decide, not merely
'lta.,,aot , ow „rival schemes, but which was the
‘o!l'',' tv„.nue pro,sl:l)Jest line, as it often happened,
ji
~,,,tlrthe proj,ett's.s
.(1 at all ; it might ethbrace a por.-
itot: t tin" than
.1 bUt the present tribunal did not go
;tl!t,e°lll,l.k the Gl-_'Le schemes proposed. Further, he
;tlkll the Judge sent,of Such by any, mode of organisa-
, 3idia oveetrsu, eh lud of projects, extend-
olltbla kitOvoold tithe Whole face of Great Britain and
Itt keeerit e tuaid._ ft, task which no Government, how-
ifletkti
Itergaoisnaettl't could acc• mplish. He felt that
1,4il Weli/tiraetly „,°./isnd machinery was imperfect,
14,1),,Nidk'llirro'Vill(! be speedily supplied.
►tso t'jltd.
.110 t ad_ ''''.' felt assured that the Board of
alatail i_ Jade `2l3t any measure by which to inter-
vttift a sally
_with the large mass of capital now
lal "Ii hieli 'act Speculation•
001%ti!.tt Nla . , intefers in thus country, and the
0,41 itoitedi_r, , anee would be, that those specu-
-11,?, hißs ill coffly transfer their capital to similar
4Nti7lt, aidtespeet'letga.countries. The laws of this
ottittft 41a.. th to railroads were so exceedingly
~,:,a1.4111,ii.t0. ninadaatages. to the speculator who id-
lellA7th the forceg.ii lines so many, that any in-
-116 th n eap• ngllsh lin -,:h tia N , Itaiists to
, ns that would not be en-
Oale hsteir resort ofula have the effect of in-
tttlriq 14 th -tea with ?reign countries.-(Hear.)
4t 1 atty,
tie Hen. m considerable
Sunderland; to the
di Ceded Witinat i thiser°l39' for ; but he
4, ae,,..tithat ii gene opinion that scheme would be
ltlt," tii engin Inconvenience. It should be recol-
le, "cl tones ~ eers wool
ftnttil
tltil t the
axivat : to report
At ti be rroposed . , be employed to survey the
upon what they con-
Nal, gen t°,lay thei ages and disadvantwees of each eo the %%jell matter
a 4. t.lllo 4e the r r,port b(.tbre Parliament who
off their liand,, and fi'nally.
to I,4:Pah," tithe
~ was the be • plan ; that was one
iiltairtste.j Who-hyr°l:ft'sal of the Noble Lord was, that
tirt 1 8 P .al Cesol .
mtni the. arhatn Ned upon a certain line should
otii , tr tin eritara fa, . .
(I k , ..e, atid .07 aearimittee, having first de-
:lnt be -headeee •„laat Committee were to call for
tellt.l ite.
firing of -Stiltii utvour of the lowest. What
rj, , a eaaanas', einrse be ? Wh • this-it
years.
kriiir tied . eartai --poly to a certain co .).
3
Otiu„Nttis •°() x.,e_ b term of
NOania Ps'ulnre'l3• upon
jacOo ta iearr"tia" embarked •
,iltro
tito
wunie,ant
that
Ho
se inn the whole scheme
itqtekliehl,ltrtiosrl in effect, iteud,„.ll F°rnit" t() such a
sp ..`l3 vv,, Verge of
„‘-- I•ltig tnat they had
t Iva hap
-re hein perrcetion.-(Hear, hem)
i)4, th_ 410 "hl)..en, that t,ga. made every day ; and it
het):lteci:tili a f: sha,vii
.n t line which in a few years
k' bee, rt'aer u„ L° be infinitely more advanta-
tt 'lnber
.the. , 0 10v,.,,t
,en
_be. approved of and
!,,,att°,, thill '-tf yeii;trltraet
was ,del had been ac-
ithleltileabo4 that v,.' Tata a,_ ``,) hold good for 1 .
Ikti
I that re,„4144. .t.,TlItl itaui 'uuld . bring about a I pract
t4t Vy -.' f• d y ,t,.--,...-...tef. ve the Gore
0 • 4o t ‘L'ls - 're he could ,
ttve ° at:rr, "11, butt could
ev6r -It th„ ~, t4e adoption rnment in an
ee no mode by
1 Y oppor - tOttest d- of one rule,
t an fairest
I unity to
~.._ competition,
ueW companies to corn-

After a few words from Mr. J. RUSSELL, who was
quite inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. WAKLEY said the Right Honourable Baronet
had made an excellent speech on the subject of railways,
hut the great difficulty which he had adverted to on a
former occasion, he had altogether passed over in utter
silence. Now he wished to know what was to he done
with the barristers?—(Laughter.) They would be vic-
timised if the railway Bills were to be disposed of by
five or six Committees of that House. Now he wished
to know if the Members of that House were to be left
to the interminable addresses cf barristers ?
(Laughter.) Barristers would make no submission ex-
cept to members of their own profession, and the ques-
tion which naturally a-ose was—what persons could be
placed in authority. This the Right Hon. Baronet ad-
mitted, on a former occasion, was the great difficulty to
be dealt with, but still he had not touched upon it in
the speech he had just made. In addressing themselves
to the law of a ease, barristers constantly expressed
their regret that they were not addressing gentlemen
who were learned in the law. Notwithstanding the
sentlemen sitting in the Committee were makers of the
law. Barristers constantly regretted that they were not
learned in the law, and that they could not of conse-
quence comprehend the legal arguments which were
applied to the question. Now in a paper of that morn-
ing—a paper of considerable influence—the Mo,n-
lag Chronicle—and the Morning Chronicle only ex-
pressed in a great measure what was the pub-
lic opinion upon this subject,—they would find a
part of the question discussed. It was a part
which must not be overlooked, because it was perfectly
notorious that the time of Committees was monstrously
occupied by the addresses of learned gentlemen. As
he had stated moreover on a former night, these Com-
mittees were adjourned again and again for the purpose
of allowing barristers of extensive practice, who hap-
pened to be engaged in another place, the opportunity
of attending to address them. It was, he said, a noto-
rious practice ; and what did the public press say with
regard to these tribunals, formed by that House, as ex-
pressed to-day in the Morning Chronicle? It was ne-
cessary that the House should have a correct view of
the subject, and he would quote to them what was said.
The Morning Chronicle says—" It may be that counsel
do in these Railway Committees make gold out of iron
with express train' haste ; peradventure also the fees
are out of all proportion to the amount, intricacy, or dif-
ficulty, of the business done; but then it is not for doing
the business eminent, eloquent, and able men are re-
tained, but for overmastering the Committee."—(Hear,
hear.) Thus the House saw that the barristers controlled
the Committee. and made them decide, not in accord..
ante with truth and justice, but in accordance with what
was absolutely contrary to either truth or justice. Coun-
sel were employed, it was admitted, for the purpose of
overmastering the Committee. Now, what was the re-
medy proposed ? It was this—" Elevate your Parlia-
mentary tribunal to the intellectual station of your Par-
liamentary bar, and the remedy forprolixity, diffuseness,
the introduction of extraneous matter, and such shock-
ing bad law, that it can only be called Crowner's
'quest law,' was near at hand. On matters of fact, allow
your Committee the juror's province, but in matters of
law, aid them by a competent legal assessor, having judi-
cial responsibility, and, of course, assuming judicial
power. In other words, they must provide, out of
that House, gentlemen who had sufficient intellectuality
and capacity of mind to contend with the hired barristers
who plead on those occasions. This was a compliment
to be sure. He did not say it was wholly untrue, but it
was certainly not very complimentary. The remedy for
" prolixity, diffuseness, the introduction of extraneous
matter, and such shocking bad law, that can only be
called Crowners"quest law,' was near at hand."
" Crowners"quest law," indeed. He was surprised
how it could be spoken disrespectfully of, because the
lawyers, while in office, got the law into such ill
repute—(Hear, hear)—that now another profes-
sion had taken the office, it was a matter of
great difficulty for them to extricate it. Now the
writer went on to say, "It is not from any vulgar greedi-
ness of gain as is grossly and ignorantly imputed that
counsel now waste the time of Committees in frivolous
speeches, but it is because they level themselves down,
be it said, to the intelligence of a Parliamentary tri-
bunal. High in mere wordy, but low, very low, in
judicial intelligence. Placing no reliance at all in the
judicial discrimination of their judges." That was what
was done by counsel. He believed -this was written by
an able man—a man of great intellectual power, and a
barrister himself. "Placing no reliance at all on the
judicial discrimination of their judges, Parliamentary
counsel do undoubtedly often address to Committees the
most preposterous propositions in law, and finding such
absurdities tolerated, contend for victory, and sometimes
obtain it, often in the teeth of the law, of fact, and com-
mon justice." He very much feared that the proposal
which had been made would not prove to be of a less
obnoxious character. Public opinion was adverse to
the occupation of that House with regard to railways. It
was believed that there were men in that House who
were
p themso n, and they
personally interested
were n
i n speculations,therefore decided
that came
before upon,
not in accordance with the public good. Nothing
could be more unfortunate for the character
of the Legislature than that such an opinion should
generally prevail, but the feeling certainly was
prevalent, and he did not believe that any
proposition which had been made to that House
could have in the slightest degree the effect of mitigat-
ing this feeling. So long as this tribunal was main-
tained, so long would that House be doubted—so
long would their decisions be impugned. In that House
there was, no doubt, many who were personally interested
in the speculations that were brought before them, but the
Board of Trade was constituted of highly respectable
men—men who, it was thought, were far removed from
the slightest imputation. Nevertheless, allusions had
been made to the decisions of that Board, and there were
many who doubted those decisions which particularly
related to railways. Now, as he had stated, it was
thought the Board would not be open to imputations,
but still insinuations had been thrown out against it,
and he did not think it likely that the five or six Com-
mittees proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet
would be more fortunate in escaping from doubt. Now,
let him read an extract from a public newspaper called
The Economist. It was published by a highly respect-
able and well-known person, and contained a statement
of a very serious character. It was with reference to
what had been going on in railway matters, and he could
not help waiting to remark that these things ought to
be known and duly considered before any Committee
was appointed, and, in fact, before anything was done
with reference to railways. The writer, in commenting
upon Mr. Gladstone, the late President of the
Beard of Trade, stated, " That there was no doubt,
nor was there reason to believe, that any one
connected with the Board of Trade was interested in
railways ; but since the appointment of Sir James
Graham's private secretary, a circumstance of a sus-
picious character had occurred. He (Mr. Wakley) did
not know how it was the Rightllon.Baronet's name was in-
troduced, because he believed the Right Hon. Baronet
did not exercise the remotest influence in the appoint-
ment of the gentleman to which allusion had been made.
—(Hear, hear.) The writer went on to state, that
shortly after the appointment of Mr. O'Brien, his
brother was engaged by the South-Eastern Railway
Company as manager. The standing orders required
that railway companies intending to make application
for an Act of Parliament in the next sessbn, should
deposit their plans with theßoard of Trade before thelsth
of November. After that day, however, it was well
known that this order could not be complied with by the
South-Eastern line, and, in consequence, it was impos-
sible for them to go through Parliament in the next
session. This caused a considerable fall in their shares,
but, notwithstanding, towards the end of December,
Mr. O'Brien increased his stock of shares by several
hundreds. To the surprise of every railway speculator,
on the 17th the report of the Board of Trade on the
further lines which they had had under their
consideration, appeared ; and in this report was
contained the name of the railway proposed
by the South-Eastern Company, although it
was considered to be entirely out of Court. The pro-
posed line was favourably reported, and on the following
day a notice was posted on the Stock Exchange in the
usual coarse of business, stating that if one hundred
shares in the new line sold at S premium were not taken
up, they would be bought in by Mr. Scott. These
shares were worth 221. each, and it was conjectured
that this was only a small portion of the quantity Mr.
O'Brien had purchased. Now he asked the Right Hon.
Baronet, or any other person, whether it was possible
that such a statement as this could go forth to the public
without producing the greatest possible injury upon the
veracity of the Railway Board? If these statements
were not put an end to, it would involve the country
inconsiderable difficulty. It was next to impossible,
ender the adverse circumstances in which they were
placed, to hope to make any proposition which should
receive the general concurrence of the House or the
public. The whole subject was one of difficulty, for the
interests involved in it extended to every part of the
land. Placed in these difficulties as they were, he should
for once propose placing a barrister in an official situa-
tion, for he believed it would be quite impossible to get
through the business which would have to come before
them, without placing some legal gentleman at their
head. The Right Hon. Baronet was more a friend to
the barristers than he was, and he trusted he would adopt
his suggestion, and appoint some person of legal ex-
perience and ability to the office. It was mon-
strous that under the present system a railway
company could not procure a Bill in that House ;
and several hundred thousand pounds, fifty, sixty,
or eighty thousand pounds, were ordinary sums
paid for Bills, and he thought it was high time a
reformation should be introduced in this portion of their
proceedings. It was asked, in the paper he bad just
quoted from, what he would think of a gen-
tleman making a speech about the inordinate gains of
Sir Astley Cooper or Sir Benjamin Brodie? But there
was no similarity between the two cases; because in
the one instance there was not that extravagant public
expenditure as in the other. Why counsel were en-
gaged, at one and the same time, in four or five Com-
mittees, and sometimes more. This rendered it fre-
quently necessary that one of them should be adjourned.
and of course injured the public interest. But when
gentlemen were paid to speak by the hsur or the day, he
was not surprised they should use their influence to pro-
tract their inquiries. He said, then, it was necessary
something should be done to remedy this, if they wished
to restore the confidence of the public in their pro-
ceedings.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said—Nothing was farther
from his intention than addressing the House on this ques-
tion, but as his name had been directly introduci-d in the
discussion, he felt it necessary to trouble the House with
one or two remarks. Allusion had once or twice been
made to bim in the debates on railways, but he believed
that was the first time his name had been directly men-
tioned. For upwards of thirty years he had had the
honour of holding a seat in that House, and during the
whole of that period he had taken an active part in the
public and private business brought under consideration.
But his principal object in rising to addreea the House

pete for new lines.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed, so impressed
was lie with the justice and fairness of this plan, that
he felt convinced, when the subject came to be fully con-
sidered by the House, this would be the rule which they
would decide was the best. He aas also in favour of
the Committees on these Bills being limited, say to five;
fur the fewer their number were, the better would they
be enabled, without much difficulty, to arrive at a con
scientious conclusion.
Mr. BA NKES—Tbe Hon. Member had argued in fa-
vour of the principle of encouraging competition. Now,
he (Mr. Banks) contended that that would not be a be-
neficial course to adopt, for it had had the effect of
checking railway speculation in the county be repre-
sented. In that county several propositions for different
lines of railways had been put forward by distinct and
very powerful and we althy bodies; but there were twenty
to one—or, indeed, he might say a much larger propor-
tion of the inhabitants of that county in favour of the
South-Western Company's line.—(heer, hear.) That
line was looked upon as one of the highest importance
by the inhabitants of the county, be cause it proposed to
pass through a part of the county having at present no
other railroad, in which the existing roads were by no
means good. The land through which it was intended it
should pass was rich and fertile, and the inhabitants of
the district had not by any means the necessary facili ies
cf transit, either by land or water; while, on the other
hand, the line proposed by the other company passed
through a part of the county where the inhabitants were
in the full enjoyment of all those advantages ; and,
therefore, the inhabitants of the south-western district
had not only to look forward to gaining all those advan-
tages, by gettirg this line of railroad, but also the addi-
tional one of a renewal of the traffic between London
and Ex, ter; and furthermore, it was quite clear
that this would be the line by which the public would
prefer to travel, while without it the people of that part
of the county would in fact be to some extent isolated.
One other fact in favour of the South-Western line, in
preference to that of the Great Western, was, that a
distance of about 130 miles would be saved by it.—
(Hear, hear.) He had heard it stated that the Board of
Trade had decided in favour of the Great Western line,
and that they had recommended a combination of the
two companies. If that were the fact, the consequence
would be that the county would get the worst coasting
line ; whereas the South-Western line would have been
an excellent coasting line, for it proposed to proceed by
Exeter.—(Hear.) He did not state this as a fact that
had come within his own knowledge ; but he had been
told that such was the case. With regard to the Com-
mittee divulging any information upon the subject before
their report was published, he should say he did not
think any member of the Committee would do anything
of the kind ; but it should be recollected that there were
many hands through which those reports passed—such
as printers and others ; and though he would not say
that the latter were more capable of divulging that which
should not be made public than those in higher station,
et, as the decisions of the Committee had to pass
through many hands, great injury was the result. In
conclusion, he would only say that if the Great Western
line should be adopted in preference to the South-Wes-
tern, they could do nothing more, and should accept it ;
but he did hope the latter would. not be lost sight of.
Sir B. PEEL did hope that the House would postpone
coming to any decision upon the subject for the present.
—(Hear, hear.) He had no doubt but that many of the
decisions of the Board of Trade were open to be found
fault with, and that good and sufficient grounds could
be stated for doing so—(heer, hear)—but it was
utterly impossible, he conceived, for the House
yet to say definitively what course they should
adopt in reference to this subject.—(Hear, hear.) Hav-
ing heard the statement of his Hon. Friend, he could
only say that, if the Board of Trade could be shown to have
come to an inconsiderate or impolitic decision, and if he
could show that a better line for the county generally
had been proposed than that said to have been approved
of; he felt assured that that line would receive every con-
sideration and attention.—(Hear, hear.) It was not so
much upon the decision that the Board of Trade should
have arrived at on any particular line of railroad, that so
much depended, as on the statement they should make
of the grounds upon which they had arrived at such de-
cisions.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, the value of those deci-
sions would entirely depend upon those grounds ; and he
felt eel.' ain that the board would show that they were
not deserving of condemnation.—(Hear, hear.) But it
should be remembered that that Board had not long been
in office ; they were only appointed last session, and
were the mere creation of himself and his colleagues.
That Board had been censured because of their reports
or decisions having got publicity at an improper time.
He did think that a serious charge ; but, at the same
time, he would say that he conceived it most conducive
to public convenience that those reports should be de-
dared at as early a period as possible ; for, if they held
over those deci-ions for two or three months, there
would be then such an enormous accumulation of busi-
ness, that those reports would be much more likely to
gain publicity than by the course the Board had hitherto
adopted ; but he did think the Board had adopted a
wise and judicious course in reserving to themselves,
until the proper time had arrived, their reasons for the
decisions they had come to ; while, had they kept the
whole a secret for that time, it would have been much more
likely to prove injurious. In two or three days, the House
would have the report of the Board, and that would be
accompanied by a general statement of the grounds that
had led them to concur in those views with reference to
certain lines ; and until then, he did hope the House
would postpone giving •expression to its judgment.—
(Hear, hear.) He did also hope that the House would
not come to a resolution to abandon the general
principle upon which the Board had been acting, until
they had given it a fair trial, and were convinced by ex-
perience that it was bad.—(Hear, hear.) They had
heard it stated that there. were 240 lines of railroad to
be proposed. That was an enormous number ; yet he
had little doubt, when they came to be looked into, they
would be very considerably reduced ; but were they to
come down to 100, still the amount of labour would be
very great.—(Hear. hear.) His Noble Friend opposite
had applied for the appointment of a Committee ; be-
fore that could be granted, some reports of the Board of
Trade would be brought fora ard, and they would be
found to form a material element in the discussions of
that Committee.—(Hear.) The Committee, when it
should be appointed, would find it desirable to adopt
some principle by which they should be guided.
—(Hear, hear.) If the Members of that Com-
mittee should be confined to a small limit.
say five or seven, and if they gave constant and punctual
attendance to the business before them, whether they
should agree to, or dissent from the report of the Board
of Trade, he had no doubt the labour of the Committee
would have great influence with the House.—(Hear.)
The Committee would find it necessary, perhaps, to have
witnesses brought before them, to give evidence on local
peculiarities, and he could not see why they could not
apply the principle adopted by election Committees
to that branch.—(Hear, hear.) But supposing that this
Committee were appointed to consist of only five Mem-
bers, from which those possessed of local knowledge
upon any particular line were to be excluded from
giving evidence, and that the power of deciding upon a
line was to be transferred to the Committee, the Noble
Lord might despair of this House ever doing anything
satisfactory on the subject.—(Hear.) He (Sir R. Peel)
did not think that this House ought to transfer such a
power to a Committee, or any other body.—(Hear.) In
fact, if the Noble Lord's plan were adopted, he (Sir IL
Peel) would look upon it as nothing more nor less than
a total revolution of the law at present regulating rail-
road projects.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord bad ex-
pressed a fear that parties would be likely to invest their
capital in foreign speculations ; that was a good reason
why the decisions of the Board of Trade should be as
prompt as possible.—(hear, hear.) The plan of the
Noble Lord, he (Sir B. Peel) conceived, it would be im-
possible to adopt, for it would amount to this, that the
Government should appoint new surveyors to survey all
the lines proposed to be run in England, Scotland, and
Ireland. That operation would occupy a long time, and
what would be the effect of it ? Take, suppose, the
line from Waterford to Kilkenny ; that had been going
forward ; and would it not create the greatest surprise
and confusion if that line was to be stopped until a
Government surveyor could have surveyed the line ?
(Hear, hear.) In like manner, were the works that had
been going on for the last twelve or fourteen months, on
some of the lines in this country, to be put a stop to,
or suspended until the House had laid before it the GO-
veryment engineers' report, ,for the proposition was, in
fact, tantamount to that ?—(Hear, hear.) He did not
know what the effect would be upon the country, if the
Government were to take up the management and direc-
tion of railroads ; but he very much doubted, if the
Government did adopt such a course, the country would,
ab iniCo, be the better for ft.—(hear.) How could the
Government decide upon what was and what was not
the best line ? Suppose a line to run between any two
towns were proposed, how could the Government
acquire local knowledge sufficient to guide them in
coming to a judicious decision ?—(Hear, hear,) Would
it not be much better to rely upon the knowledge of those
who were on the spot, and who, therefore, could alone
give this information ?—(Hear.) Ile conceived it would,
and therefore he would say, it was from such only that
such information should be derived.—(Hear, hear.)
They did not want to interfere in these speculations.
They gave speculators the preference, stipulating, how-
ever, that certain preliminaries should be carried out for
the benefit of the public generally, but more particularly
for the benefit of the poorer classes. By pursuing this
course they did not di: turb the ordinary course of busi-
ness. But what would be the case if they followed the
suggestion of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunder-
land ? Why the Government would be overwhelmed
with the magnitude of the labour imposed upon them,
and the result would be that not a single railway Bill
weulsi be passed. With all respect for the suggestion of
the Noble Lord, he thought it would be injudicious,
therefore, for the Government to adopt it, and what he
would propose was, that they should imme-
diately address themselves to the formation of a Select
Committee to consider what would be the best mode
of proceeding with respect to these railway Bills. It
would be necessary, however, for them to wait till they
could see the report of the Board of Trade, and hear
the general principles which they had adopted in coming
to their conclusions. The Board of Trade had not yet
decided upon the merits of the three York lines, but he
had no doubt when the report did appear the represen-
tatives of the two lines reported against would start up
and make sp-eches, to show how much better their lines
were to the one which had been adopted by the Board
of Trade. There might also be surmises hazarded that
the gentlemen connected with the successful line had
some influence with the Government, but in his opinion
these assertions should be received with extreme cau-
tion, or not listened to at all. In conclusion, he hoped
the Hon. Member would agree with him, that in the
meantime they should not interfere with the present
practice of the House, but at once proceed to take into
consideration, by means of a Select Committee, the bi st
mode of eispo meg of these.Bills.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES explained that he represented no line.
He merely stated his opinion as to which line he thought
most benefit the county with which he was connected,

T 14.1 SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY
_EVENING, FEBRITAR-Y

was to state, that never in the whole course of his Par-
liamentary career had he been connected directly
or indirectly with any railway company whatsoever.
In the course of the discussion which had taken place,
reference had been made to two gentlemen with whom
he had been acquainted. Both those gentlemen had held
commissions in the army ; and having' afterwards
made their way in life had found it not inconsistent with
their honour or character to form connexions with rail-
ways. One of those gentlemen had been induced to give
up his connexion with a railway company, and to accept
the office of his (Sir J. Graham's) private secretary. He
(Sir J. Graham) had entertained the highest opinion of
that gentleman's integrity and ability, and he was not
disappointed. But he (Mr. O'Brien) went from him (Sir
J. Graham) to his present office at the Board of Trade.
He (Sir J. Graham) regretted his loss extremely, and
had nothing to do with his appointment to that Board.
lie was, however, appointed on the condition that any
connexion which he had with railways should be dis-
si,lved, and that the shares which he possessed should be
sold ; and in the month of October last, as he was in-
formed by Mr. O'Brien, that gentleman's shares were
sold. But it was understood that those who held
the scrip or first allotment of shares, must sign
the deed, and it was in that way the name
of Mr. O'Brien appeared now as connected
with the company. But he (Sir James
Graham) amaay assured by Mr. O'Brien, upon his
honour, that the sale of the shares was actually effected
in October. The gentleman whose name was referred to
irtt h)a
was
in the Economist newspaper, was not the same, but his
brother. He also had served in the army, and was now
connected with the South-Eastern Railway, and both
these gentlemen had given him (Sir James Graham)
the strongest assurances, upon their honour, that neither
directly nor indir( ctly had any communication been
made by either of them to the person alluded to, as
having taken advantage of information obtained from
the Board of Trade. No one could regret more than he
did, that any such suspicion should arise as to the con-
duct of any person connected with a department of the
Government ; and he trusted the House would not think
that he acted improperly, if, on the first impulse, he had
risen to state the facts as they were, as far, at least, as
he was cognisant of them, or concerned with them.—
(Hear, hear.) If there were any suspicions on the part of
any Member of the House with respect to the purity of
the conduct of either of those gentlemen, it was matter ,
of' inquiry.—(Hear.) Let that inquiry be instituted, and if
they were not able to exculpate themselves to the satis-
faction of the House—although he had the highest
opinion of their honour and fidelity, he would say, let
them stand or fall.—(Hear.) Still he would say, that
their character, that the character of men who had
served with distinction and credit, ought not to be whis-
pered away, when a direct charge could be made against
them, and if true, be easily substantiated.—(Hear.)
Now, although he could not apply to the Honourable
Gentleman opposite—(Mr. Wakley)—the compliment
which that gentleman had paid to his Right Hon. Friend
at the head of the Government ; namely, that he had
made a practical and useful speech, he yet agreed with
him in much that he had said. But he could not agree
with him in what he had said on the authority of the
Morning Chronicle, that the intellect and information of
the House of Commons was below the intellect and in-
formation of the Bar, and that its committees ought to
be elevated to the standard of the profession with which
those tribunals had to contend.---(Hear, hear.) With
respect to the Committee of the Board of Trade, he
would only remind the House that three of its members
had served with credit, and with irreproachable honour
in the army, and that the other two members, who were
civilians, had always been spoken of in the highest
terms by the other side of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
But with respect to the Committees of the House, he
would ask, have we arrived at the day when the repre-
sentatives of the people—acting before the public and
in the face of day—were not competent to consider
questions of this kind?—(Hear, hear.) He was of
opinion that if these inquiries were conducted in such a
manner as to bring public opinion to bear upon them,
the difficulties would be overcome, and the duty would
be performed with satisfaction to the public. As there
were in the House so many Members of the legal pro-
fession, he was ashamed to say in their presence any-
thing in defence of the " long robe," to which this
country owed so much. But he could not avoid saying
that, without the aid of the gentlemen of the bar, they
would not be able to conduct the private business of the
Committees with satisfaction to the country.—(Hear,
hear.) What would people say if they had not the
freest choice of the lawyers to whom they should en-
trust the care of their interests, if they were to be
bound by rules, and fettered in their selection of legal
advisers?—(Hear, hear.) People thought themselves
entitled to have the ablest men, and to be left to their
own free judgment in the choice. It was the
duty of the representatives of the people to sacri-
fice their own time and convenience, rather than pre-
vent the gentlemen who were selected to explain
and defend private rights and interests from the fullest
advocacy of those who entrusted their affairs to their
advocacy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the speeches
of counsel before the Committees, he must say that he
thought they were limited as much as possible ; and, as
far as he had observed, an intimation from the chairman
was always sufficient to curtail a speech.—(Hear.) He
entirely concurred in the observations of his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government. He thought that
the discussion would do good, and he could not regret
that it had taken place. He felt that he ought to apolo.
gise to the House—(No, no)—but he could only say
that, situated as he was, anything that affected his public
character required the earliest and fullest explanation.
Mr. WAKLEY said that he had not read the paper to which
he referred ten minutes before he spoke ; and, as he found the
name of the Right Hon. Baronet mentioned in it, he thought
he should have acted unjustly if he had not called his atten-
tion to it.
Mr. BROTHERTON sal4 that as his Hon. Friend the
Member for Finsbury had complained of the length of speeches
of counsel, he thought it only just to say that the length of
Members' speeches might more reasonably be complained of.—
( A laugh.) He thought that every Member of the House who
eas liable to be placed upon a Committee ought to do as he
did, that was, never to have anything whatever to do with
railway shares.
Mr. DARBY said that the working of Railway Committees
was very much improved, and he thought it no mere neces-
sary to have a lawyer as an assessor than to have a medical
man.—(A laugh.) He admitted that in some particular in-
stances long speeches were made, but when private interests
were involved it would be unwise to allow parties to go away
with the impression that they had not been able to lay their
whole case before the Committee.
Mr. WALLACE would be very brief in what he had to
say. He had often served on Railway Committees, and he had
noticed the manceuvres of agents and c.unsel to prevent a deci-
sion being come to, by talking on until it was announced that
the Speaker was in the chair.—(A laugh.) But if ever he
should be Chairman, he should adopt the practice that was fol-
lowed in the House of Lords, and appoint the adjournment at
nine o'clock. He was exceedingly glad that this discussion had taken place, as he believed it would call the attention of the
public to the subject. He would now withdraw the motion.
The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
MEDICAL OFFICERS IN POOR-LAW UNIONS.
Mr. WAKLEY rose to move for a return containing a de-
scription of the diplomas, licences, or other letters testimonial,
that are admitted and sanctioned by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners as legal qualifications which eutitle medical practi-
tioners to be appointed medical officers of poor-law unions in
England and Wales. The Poor-law Amendment Act had ex-
cited the utmost confusion among medical men with reference
to the persons qualified to hold the office of medical officer to a
poor-law union. By that Act, power was given to the Poor-
law Commissioners of appointing and dismissing paid officers;
and these, of course, included the medical officers. The Vedical
Association of London had been constantly discussing the
subject, and much anxiety was felt amongst that body.
In 1842 the Poor-law Commissioners endeavoured to remedy
the evil complained of, and a general order was issued. This
order stated that any person holding a diploma from any of
the medical institutions of this country was qualified for
the office of medical officer to a poor-law union, but the order
made no mention of persons holding diplomas from institutions
in Scotland and Ireland. All such persons were consequently
excluded, and this had given great dissatisfaction in Scotland
and Ireland. Applications had been made to the Poor-law
Commissioners on the.subject, and in 1843 the question was
submitted to Sir Frederick Pollock, the then Attorney-Gene-
ral, and Mr. Martin, who gave it as their opinion that any
person holding a diploma from any medical institution, either
in Scotland or Ireland, was eligible for the office to which he
had alluded. Now it was a curious circumstance that, not-
withstanding this opinion, the general order of 1 P 42 had never
been altered. The object of his motion, therefore, was to pro-
cure from the Poor-law Commissioners a clear and distinct
statement of the qualifications which were deemed to be neces-
sary to entitle any medical gentleman to hold the situation of
medical officer to any poor-law union.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it was not his intention to op-
pose the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. It was quite true
that the right of parties holding diplomas in Scotland or Ire-
land to practice in poor-law unions-was a matter involving
some doubt. The Poor-law Commissioner, were bound to
execute their functions in conformity with the law. Now,
although the opinion of the Chief Baron and Mr. Martin was
that persons holding diplomas in Scotland. and Ireland could
practice in this country in poor-law unions, yet it must be
borne in mind that no person but a general practitioner could
hold the office of medical officer to a poor-law union ; and as
the Apothecaries' Act excluded persons holding diplomas in
Scotland and Ireland, the Poor-law Commissioners, acting in
conformity with that law, of course excluded them. Now it
so happened that this was one of the principal things which he
professed to remedy in the Bill for Medical Reform which he
had laid on the table, and he therefore was glad that the Hon.
Gentleman had alluded so prominently to this grievance. As
he had said before, he had not the least objection to the papers
which the Hon. Gentleman had moved for.

Sir J. GRAHAM said he could atsure the Hon. and Gallant
Officer that he had expressed to the Poor-law Commissioners,
before the close of the last session, his earnest desire that if pos-
sible the returns might be furnished before the House rose;
but it was found impossible to complete them in time He was
happy to inform him that they would, in three or four days,
be presented to the House. He had no hesitation in declaring,
what he had already stated, that to him it was matter of regret
that in poor-law union workhouses such a description of labour
as the crushing of bones should be used.—( Hear, hear.) He
thought there were many circumstances which rendered it an
offensive occupation.—( Hear, hear.) It was impossible to
prevent a very disgusting smell ; and he repeated that it was
matter of regret to himself that this particular species of labour
should be adopted. At the same time he was bound to
say that this was an illustration of local management. Not-
withstanding
all the jealousy of the power of the Commis-
sioners—the kings, as they were called, in Somerset House—
their
authority was, it appeared very limited. It was not pre-
scribed by law that bone crushing should be the occupation of
the inmates of workhouses, much less was it the wish of the
Secretary of State or the Poor-law Commissioners, either of
whom would, if they had the power, put an end to this kind
of occupation, but, he repeated, this was an illustration of
the working of local management apart from central authority,
local management and discretion unchecked, and unawed by
any superior power. —( Hear, hear.) As the law now stood,
boards of guardians had a right to employ the inmates of
workhouses in this particular manner. The evil continued
because there was no central control, and this was an illustra-
tion of the fact that the powers of the Poor-law Commissioners
might in some cases be beneficially extended.--( Hear, hear. )
Lord EBRINGTON said, as one who was connected with
a union workhouse where bones were crushed by paupers, he
could not allow this subject to pass without saying a few
words. If bones were not to be crushed by paupers, it was
quite clear that they must be crushed by independent labour-
ers ; and he confessed it appeared to him a strange position to
lay down, that work which was too offensive for the one class
should be performed by the other.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir
C. Lemon.) He rejoiced that there was no legal power of pre-
venting the continuance of the practice. He felt convinced
that he had not been a party to ordering an unjust, unfair, or
an unwholesome employment, and he hoped that the practice
would continue in union workhouses as long as bones were
crushed by independent labourers out of doors.
Captain PECHELL said, that if the Noble Lord had been
in Parlsament when a petition was presented to that House
from an unfortunate pauper in a union workhouse, who was
brought to death's door from the scandalous treatment which
he had received in a house where men were sent to the bone-
mill as a punishment, he would not have assumed the position
which he had done that night.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the Right Hon. Baronet would issue an order for the sup.
pression of the practice. In the workhouse which he had in his
eye, the guardians were, he believed, impressed with the notion
that they were fully carrying out the views of the Poor-law
Commissioners, and that this workhouse was, in fact, a patent
poor-law Hostile for the whole country. It was necessary that
the guardians should be made acquainted that they had mis-
taken the opinion both of the Secretary of State and of the
Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. WAKLEY said he was really surprised to find such
Noble interest engaged in support of this system. (Laughter.)
This proved that it prevailed to to a fearful extent. He hail
before thought that by some accident the atrocious practice
which had fallen under the notice of the Gallant Captain ex-
isted somewhere ; but he had now heard a Noble Lord rise in
that House and ask whether this labour was to fall upon the
pauper or upon the independent labourer?—.( Hear, hear. )
Why the Commissioners had more to do than he had imagined.
—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck and other Hon. Members. )
He was bound to :admit they had been the protectors of the
members of this profession against the parsimony of the boards
of guardians ; and he should be disposed to give them more
authority.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary of State, after hearing what had
fallen from the Noble Lord, (sight to ask for more authority
within forty-eight hours.—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear,'
and laughter.) Were paupers to be employed in crushing
bones in a state of decomposition ? Were they to be put to
this poisonous, filthy, odious, and abominable occupation? and
was that occupation to be defended by a Noble Lord ?—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord could not have spent any time in
the workhouse, that was quite evident. It was most distress-
ing to hear the Noble Lord make such remarks; and if be
sanctioned it in the union with which he was connected, he
feared that a practice, or practices equally odious, prevailed
generally throughout the country. He did maintain that it was
necessary to refer to the Poor-law Commissioners for protec-
tion against practices of this nature. He had already stated
that the Poor-law Commissioners had protected the members
of his profession against the parsimony and illiberality of boards
of guardians; and he would on a future occasion mention a
union where a medical officer was dismissed by the guardians
on the ground of his being too liberal in giving food to the
poor ; though not a single instance of thedrind had been brought
home to him, he was dismissed upon that ground. He was in-
formed the Poor-law Commissioners had no power to protect
individuals against the guardians • but if any power had
existed it would certainly have been a very proper case for
its exercise. He did not hesitate, then, to ask the Right
Hon. Baronet to apply, in the Bill he was about to introduce
that night upon the law of settlement, for powers which
wonld give to the Commissioners sufficient authority to put
down the abominable practice of bone-grinding in union
workhouses.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he was not going to occupy the
time of the House with any remarks on the immediate sub-
ject then before the House ; but he could not help con-
trasting the opinion just expressed by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, with the sentiments to which he had been accus-
tomed to give vent on former occasions, both in that House
and out of doors.—( Hear.) It appeared that the Poor-law
Commissioners were not now such persons he had formerly
considered them to be—(Laughter)—as he called on the Right
Hon. Paronet not to let forty-eight hours pass without increas-
ing their powers.—(Laughter.) Let the Honourable
Member and others who had joined with him in that
respect, look back to the language which they had used
in reference to the Poor-law Commissioners. Let the House
recollect how the Commissioners had been talked of as the
three tyrants of Somerset-house, and how the term " pinch
paupers" had been applied to them.—(Hear, hear.) Every
term, in fact, which could express contempt and hatred had
been used by the Hon. Members ; and be would ask the Hon.
Gentleman, before he hastily expressed an opinion upon such a
subject, to plate faith in those by whom the question had been
more accurately, calmly, and dispassionately considered. He
(Mr. Roebuck) spoke feelingly on this subject. He was one
of those against which the finger of scorn had been pointed, on
account of the support which he had given to the new Poor-
law Bill, and he now directed his finger is scorn against the
Hon. Member opposite to whom he referred. There were per-
sons who cared not what opinion they expressed, so that it
suited the particular matter in hand. When it suited them
they could talk of the three tyrants in Somerset-house ; and,
again, for the same reason they would talk of increasing their
powers in forty-eight hours. That might be all very well, if
one, who indulged in mere talk for a particular purpose, to for-
ward a particular object—( Hear, hear)—but it did
not suit one whose mind was impressed with a
sense of the great duties and responsibilities which
rested upon his shoulders; one who was willing to meet not
only the feelings of hostility which might be exhibited on the
part of Hon. Members opposite, but even the hostilities of
friends, when he thought that his duty re uirpd . it. His only
object in rising on this occasion was to ins ss upon his Hon.
Friend near him (Mr. Wakley) and upo ome other Hon.
Members opposite, the duty that lay upon m not hastily to
te
come to conclusions or to empl©y the arts of popular dema-
goguism, for the purpose of obtaining applause. He had seen
that night a signal instance—honestly given, he would allow
—by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, of-an acknowledgment
of error, and he did hope that it would induce modesty in his
conduct, and modesty in the conduct of other Hon. Members
be-ides himself..—( Hear, and laughter.)
Sir C. 1114kON said that as far as bit own experience
went, he had no reason to believe that This occupation was
particularly offensive or disagreeable to the paupers themselves,
or in any way unwholesome. He was conviuced that it was
no more disagreeable than the breaking of stones, or any other
kind of labour. If this labour were abolished, he believed that
it would be difficult to find them sufficient employment.
Mr. WAKLEY said he did not know whether it was Par-
liamentary or not, that a Member, when he addressed that
House, sllould have improper motives imputed to him. It had
been stated by the Hon. and Learned Member fob Bath that
he had made a statement for the purpose of obtaining applause.
He utterly denied it. He was as incapable of doing so as the
Hon. Member himself, or any other Member. He had never
used any language with regard to the Poor-law Amendment
Act out of that House which he had not used in it ; and all
the expressions which he had ever used its relation to the
powers of the Commissioners he was prepared to repeat. All
he had stated was, that if this practice existed under the ope-
ration of the Poor-law Amendment Act, which his Hon. and
Learned Friend supported, and which he (Mr: Wakley) opposed
when it was brought into that House, he was prepared to give
the Commissioners powers to abate the nuisance. —( Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said he was certainly surprised at the for-
getfulness of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. -He ought to
remember that the Poor-law Commissioners hid first taught,
and even compelled, the guardians to adopt the system of which
he complaints!. This species of employment had been intro-
duced as a check to any discontent on the part of the labourers.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD protested against the ap-
peal which had been made to the Right Hon. Baronet to in-
crease the powers of the Poor-law Commissioners. He did not
deny but there had been many abuses :connected with bone-
crushing and other matters, but there were other means of re-
medying the grievance without increasing the powers of the
Commissioners, and to such a remedy as that he for one would
be extremely willing to resort.
POOR-LAWS—THE LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that in rising to bring this important
subject before the House, he feared he couldinot put the House
in full possession of the Bill which he was about to introduce, if
he did not go through the reasons which induced him to make
the alterations which the Bill contained. The House would
recollect that he introduced a Bill on this subject last session,
and it was a melancholy fact, that no less than one-tenth of the
whole population of England and Wales required relief out of
the poor-rate in the course of last year ; that was to say, that no
less than 1,500,000 persons required relief in the course of the
year from this rate.—( Hear, hear.) He might state in various
ways the amount which had been expended in the
relief of the poor. He might state that since the
termination of the war in IBls—notwithstanding all
that had b,. en said about the neglect of the poor, of the neg-
lect of their duties by the rich towards the poor, notwith-
standing all the relief that had been dispersed by private
charity and their numerous charitable institutions, no less a
slim had been paid from the poor-rate in this country since
the termination of the war, than 200,000,0001., amounting to
one-fourth of the capital of the National Debt. There was,
therefore, no doubt of the existence of great poverty and desti-
tution in the country, but in addition to this destitution and
this poverty, the question arose, should the poor now receive
relief in the place where they resided for years, where they had
contracted habits and feelings of friendship, or whether those
associations should be broken? The House would pardon him
for thus introducing the subject, which was so intimately con-
nected with the feelings of so large a portion of the people of
this country. It was a subject of the greatest importance, and
one that required the greatest consideration, and it had diffi-
culties attending it, which rendered it a subject difficult to be
dealt with. Yet he was satisfied, conscientiously satisfied, that
important changes and modifications of the existing law of
settlement, in reference both to the interests and feelings of
the poor, was imperatively required. —( Hear, hear.) Ac-
tuated by that strong impression, he ventured to bring under the
notice of the House the Bill of last session, and those gentlemen
who were then present and attended to what he said, could re-
collect that on the occasion of his laying the Bill of last session
on the table of the House, he stated that he hoped the Bill
would undergo free and full discussion during the recess, and
that he might receive the suggestions and the commentaries of
those who considered the measure. He had, accordingly, re-
ceived from various quarters suggestions and commentaries,
and it was now his duty to lay before the House the result ( f
the bet em;sideratik.tt angi intelligcmee which he could Wl)*
to them. In the Hill o!,:cli be in,rodueett last sessien there
were Om- prominent ':011. It would 't...0 lie rzee,,s,ssatts.,)-0 fore
him to go through those differna points .gain: '
them nn serous objectio., ha., been urged. ihe two 1-.oi; t. It;
which objections had been made related—the first to the set-
tlement by birth. which it was
eintended shoul.i be not out t
prospective but retrospective; other referred to a five
years industrial residence in one locality, which it was in-
tended should confer irremoveability on the person who re-
quired relief. Te -that part of the Bill which regulated the
removal of Scotch and Irish Rupers, no serious objections had
been urged. The objectiens taken to the two first

Mr. WAKLEY said that ;MA had struck him most forci-
bly was, that no alteration had been made in the general order
of the Commissioners of 1842.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that his impression was that
an alteration had been made. The whole of the papers, how-
ever, should be produced.
The motion was then agreed to.
POOR LAW.
Captain PECHELL then rose to move for the return (or-
dered 25th July) of all union workhouses under the Poor-law
Amendment Act, in which the pauper inmates thereof are, or
have been, employed in grinding or crushing bones by means
of mills, machinery, or otherwise ; together with the date of
such erection of mills or other machinery, and the names of the
chairman and vice-chairman of the board of guardians of every
snch union at the period ; also, the cost of the said bones, in-
cluding all expenses of carriage and other incidental expenses,
and the amount which the same have produced in their manu-
factured state, and whether the same have been sold by tender,
or fixed price, or otherwise. He had moved for this return
last session, and it had been faithfully promised by the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite. It had not, however, appeared.
lie wished for this information in order that they might have
the opportunity of instituting a comparison between the work-
houses under the Gilbert Union Act and those under the
Poor-law Amendment Act. Although the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had distinctly stated that he was averse
to the use of machines for grinding bones in workhouses, let
he (Captain Pechell) could assure the Right Hon. Baronet
that as late as December last, at one of the Bastiles ot his neigh-
bourhood, it was the constant practice to grind bones, and an
additional mill for that puapose had been lately erected. It was
impossible for the Poor-law Commissioners to permit such
practices to continue. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentle.
man would, on that occasion, as he did at the conclusion of the
last session, express his dissatisfaction, when he ( Capt. Pechell)
had assured hitn that he knew a union workhouse—he would
not say in what part of the country—in which A. mill for grind-
ing_bwes still existed.
The question having been put,

2, 1845.

destroy all the care which the parish bad ever exhibited towa
its destitute poor. He sincerely wished that the residents in a
parish shou'd be entitled to a settlement ; end, if this law were
passed, he should propose a clause by which those persons who
resided in a parish should be received as casual poor, and not
passed out of it.
Mr. BRIGHT said that he quite agreed with the Hon. and
Gallant Member that the remedy proposed was not commen-
surate with the extent of the evil, and he hoped that there wus
an inclination manilested in the country to endeavour to arrive
at a better solution of the question than that which was pre-
miaed them by the Right. Hon. Baronet He had considerable
experience of the feeling existing in the manufacturing
counties of England, and he could assure the Ho-
nourable and Gallant Member that the mode of
removing paupers to distant unions was viewed with suspicion
and dislike by a great majority cf the people, and that clause
certainly would meet with the most strenuous opposition from
all parts of the kingdom. It might not be known to the Hon.
ansi Gallant Member that in many parts of the country the
eroprietors were most anxious that not more labourers than the
land could well support should reside upon it, and the number
was in many eases exceedingly small, as the soil was bad, and
then the landlords tried all sorts of manceuvres to prevail on
the labourers to settle in the • neighbouring townships. He
(Mr. Bright) lived in a township which paid for poor-rates in the
proportion of •ome 9d. or Is. in the pound, ard sometime ago it
became the duty of the relieving-etlicer of the county to send
a labourer and his tamily back to the union of Frith, near
Richmond in Yorkshire. So soon, however, as it was known
there that there had been issued an order for his removal, the
man received from the clerk to the board of guardians to which
the union belonged, a letter inelosing a Post-office order for
205., and requesting him to pass from the township about to
remove him, on the border, into the next one. He held the
letter in his hand, addressed to Anthony Trapp (as we caught
it)—and it said, " I send you this letter enclosing 20a., and
wish you to remove into the next township." At a future
period the man and his family were removed, at a
gr. at expense to Yorkshire by railway, and the
guardians of the union house there were then sit-
ting at the time of their arrival. The relieving officcer
returned, but he had not retraced his steps above one or two
miles, when he was overtaken by the pauper family on their
way back to Rochdale, the guardians not having had the pau-
pers in thir possession, if he might say so, more than two hours
thsn they began to bargain with them to go hack to Roch-
dale ; and they prevailed. Back they did come, and reside
there fore some three days. He confessed that, with such a
mass of pauperism in the country, it was most difficult to settle
the law at all. It was most unjust, then, that means should be
given to the landed proprietors to expel the labourers from the
land, in order that they might settle in townships for a time,
and so obtain settlements there. He should not object to sup-
port the labourers so thrown upon them ; but such were the
fluctuations of trade, that they were frequently compelled
to refer back to the parish to which they belonged, those who
in prosperous times had been employed by them. The Right
Hon. Baronet spoke of the mode in which he intended to fix
the rate in support of these unions for the future. He ( Mr.
Bright) thought that the fairest plan would be to rate the
townships and parishes at that which they had paid for the
seven years preceding the passing of this Act. The rate
would press unduly upon some parts of the country, for there
were parts of it where from generation to generation the popu-
lation had not in any way increased, while others
that now bad no rate and no population, might
in twenty years. or even in ten years, if they had
large manufactories established, or coal mines opened, in-
crease, and so require for the sustentation of their paupers re,ll
great changes in the mode of collecting the rates for that
purpose. He was inclined, therefore, to think that that pert
of the Right Hon. Baronet's Bill should be materially altered.
He was not, however, disposed to find fault with the Bill. He
admitted that from the gigantic nature of the evil, they ought
to give any measure calculated to lessen it their most serious
cons•deration.
Mr. HENLEY must be permitted to say that a measure
for the purpose of changing completely the old parochial sys-
tem ought to be received with very great caution. It was
somewhat singular that for such a great evil the Right Hon.
Baronet should have prepared such a very small remedy.
What the poor man wanted was, the ability to bring his labour
to the best market. He entered his protest against a measure
which would break up the parochial system of England.
Mr. BROTHERTON was of opinion that a fair rating
within the union was the most acceptable mode of rating. He
was very much disposed to think that this was a measure very
much needed, and which would give general satisfaction. He
would certainly offer no opposition to its passing into law.
Colonel WOOD explained.
Lord EBRINGTON wished to impress on the attention of
the Right Hon. Baronet the fact, that in almost every union
there were a large number of small holders who were not sub-
jected to rates, but who increased the burden of the rate-
payers. He approved of the measure generally, anti
thought it would confer a great boon on the coun-
try. He was glad to hear the Right Hon. Baronet
give commendation to a much-maligned class of men, political
economists, and hoped that praise would be extended to the
Poor- law Commissioners, and their Secretary, Mr. Chadwick,
who had done so much to advance the cause of charity. He
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would direct his attention to
the education of the poorer classes, and modify the limitations
regarding the education of children, which were at present at-
tended with very bad results.
Mr. BECKETT DENISON thought. the House shoal
feel grateful to the Right Hon. Baronet for this measure.
Nething could be more absurd than the present law of settle-
ment. A man might be removed to a parish which be
never heard of, and in which he had no relations or friends.
In many eases this was the true way of making them
paupers fir life. He did not think the proposed measure went
more than half-way, and this was the chief
_ .

heads—namely, the birth, settlement, and the irremove-
ability conferred by a five years' industrial residence were
almost identical. First, it was stated, that considering so
large a number of persons as one-tenth of the whole population
required relief, those two regulations would give rise to a dislo-
cation of the whole system of the law which heretofore regu-
lated the right of settlement. It was stated that it would shake
he indisputable rights of parties to be relieved under the law
as it stood at present in their parishes, and would also produce
a great deal of litigation as the necessary result. It was ob-
jected that in cases where the parish was in the hands of one, or
of a few individuals, it would induce those persons to pull down
cottages, and to have recourse to a system which was better
known than in England by the terrible words the clearing of es-
tates, and to drive the population from their little hamlets and
gardens. As he could not put those objections in a stronger
light than they had bean urged in a memorial which he had re-
ceived from the union of Bedford, the House would permit him
to read from their memorial. They stated with regard to the
settlement by birth, that they were of opinion the owners of the
principal parts of parishes would clear them of the population by
purchasing or building cottages adjoining towns, and compel-
ling them to reside there. 'I he same objection the memorialists
stated applied to irremoveability by five years' industrial resi-
dence. He was bound to state that the memorialists had
clearly stated their objections, and that they were well worthy
of serious consideration. It was his wish to meet those
objections, and having given the subject all the reflection in
his power, he was not prepared any longer to propose that a
retro-active effect should be given to the laws of settlement.
What he now proposed to enact was to take effect at the passing
of the Act. He confessed that he saw great disadvantages in
limiting the Act to a prospective operation only, but the late
regulation, which required the place of birth to be mentioned,
would hereafter afford increased facilities with regard to the
settlement by birth. When on the former occasion he ad-
dressed the House on the subject, he stated that it was clear
that in the aggregate the interests of the towns and of the
country were identical, but in details such as they were now
dealing with there was certainly a clashing between their in-
terests. It was quite clear that the birth settlement was in
favour of the towns, at the expense of the rural districts, and for
this very obvious reason, that the opportunities for labour
which the towns afforded, attracted the redundant population
of the country, but when destitution came upon them they
were thrown back upon the country. But on the other hand,
the irremoveability which a five years' industrial residence
would confer, would be in favour of the country at the expense
of the towns ; for the poor of the rural districts being
attracted to the towns by the greater demand for labour there,
would have acquired the right of relief by five years' residence.
If, therefore, he was compelled to forego the immediate enact-
ment of birth settlement, and not to bestow on t ural districts
anything which had been contemplated, he was bound also not
to impose upon the towns the extra burtbens he had alluded to.
On the whole he was disposed to forego those two portions of
the measure he had introduced last session, namely, birth set-
tlement, and five years' industrial residence. He hoped the
House would pardon him if he called its attention to the great
advantages which the six other limitations he intended to in-
troduce would confer. Every woman during her marriage,
who should be liable to be removed upon her husband's death
to his parish, would not be subject to that removal. Every
illegitimate child, under the age of 16, who would be liable to
be removed to the parish where the father had a set-
tlement, would not be liable to such removal.
Every child under 16, being a bastard, who would be
liable to be removed to the parish where its mother had a set-
tlement, would not be liable to such removal; and no widow
who at the time of her husband's death resided with
him, should be liable to be removed from the parish where she
was residing, until the expiration of one year after her hus-
band's death. So that the widow who, at the time of her hus-
band's death, was residing with him in the parish in which he
was settled, would not be liable to be removed therefrom ; and
no widow or her children, though born in Ireland or Scotland,
could after her husband's death be removed from the parish
where the husband resided till after the expiration of a certain
period. So that, in fact, the greatest advantage was given by
the measure to the Scotch and Irish paupers. He now came—
having stated the alterations in the measure of last session that
were proposed—he now came to what appeared to him
a most important condition—so important, that if the House
permitted him to introduce it, he should consider it necessary
to ask the House to permit of some little delay between the in-
troduction of that Bill and the second reading. He had stated
on a former occasion that no working man in this country
reached the age of forty without experiencing the injustice of
the law of settlement. What was the cause of this, and what
was the result ? Why, labour did not circulate freely in Eng-
land. Now, he thought it would be of great advantage to
the poor man, and no disadvantage to the rich one, if they
were to proceed to reduce the restraints on the circulation of
labour. He thought there could be no objection to the adop-
tion at once of the union settlement. If he could induce the
House to substitute union for parochial settlements, that would
reduce the injustice of the law of settlement as it at present ex-
isted. There was nothing new in parochial settlements, but there
was in union settlements. By the late Act which was introduced,
it was provided that the union should be considered part of the
same parish. If the proposition he was about to make was of
any value, it must be general. The House would perhaps
allow him to read the mode in which he proposed to effect it.
But, perhaps, before he did so, it would be better that he
should sustain his proposition by various authorities, both in
town and country, all of whom agreed with the proposition he
was about to make. He would not advert to all the authorities
he had upon the subject, but the House would perhaps pardon
him if he mentioned four. In Norfolk the guardians of the
Briden union had come to a resolution that all parochial settle-
ments were bad in principle, and taxed the poor man most un-
justly; and that, in order to avoid the evil, parochial settle-
ments should be abolished, and all districts should be formed
of the whole union. The overseers and leading officers of the
Manchester union stated, that whatever course the Le-
gislature might take in reference to this important mat-
ter, they would strenuously urge upon them the mak-
ing of all the towns and unions as one. He would
now read an extract from a report of Mr. Hall, the
Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, charged with the superin-
tendence of the Metropolitan distrlet. He says—" Much diffi-
culty that is expected to follow the administration of the new
Bill will be done away with, if settlements were made not pa-
rochial, but to relate to the union." He should trouble the
House only with one more extract, and that was from the very
able report drawn up by persons most conversant with this
particular subject, whose experience and opinions were entitled
to the utmost respect. That extract was a list of the unions
the clerks of which had assembled to discuss this sub.
ject. These unions were Altringham, Bolton, Bake-
well, Burley, Charlton-on-Medway, Congleton, Huddersfield,
Kendal, Manchester, Macclesfield, Preston, Stockport, Stoke-
upon-Trent, West Derby (which included Liverpool), Bur-
storr, and some others; the opinions of the officers of all these
unions were in favour of his proposal. Thus he had argu-
ment in support of his proposition; he had practical autho-
rity in favour of it, and unless he deceived himself, he thought
the House could not, by any single measure, more consult the
interests, and as he believed the feelings and happiness of the
poor, than by receiving this proposition. He was con-
fident that no one measure would so much restrict the
probability of frequent removal, and allow labour
to circulate so freely as the measure he propounded. It only
remained for him to state shortly the exact mode in which he
proposed that the measure should be carried out. He proposed
that, wherever a parish or township was included in a union,
all existing and future settlements should be deemed to be, not
settlements of that parish or township, but of the union in
which they were included. In that union all removals should
in future be conducted by the board of guardians, and net
by the parish officers. That was a point on which he mainly
relied as certain to produce the humane effects he antici-
pated. Instead of the narrow, bad, and selfish
interests of parish officers, the local feelings, and, he
was bound to say, the narrow prejudices of these officers, the
question of removal would be submitted to the board of guar-
dians. All facts would be freely discussed by several persons,
and those possessing the most confidence to decide on them,
and without that pinching and harsh desire to cut down to the
utmost the charge upon each small pariah. All appeals in the
same manner would be conducted by the board of guardians on
behalf of the union. He was sorry he had been obliged to
trespass at such length on the attention of the House, and he
had now only to state that all the checks and arrange-
ments incidental to the trial of orders of re.
moval, provided by the Act of last session, should
be left unchanged, though all the power of the parish
officers in respect of removals would be transferred to the
guardians, just as all discretion would be taken from the parish
authorities and transferred to the Board. It might be said that
in the midst of the vicissitudes of trade, the alterations of ser-
vice, gross injustice might be done to some districts in conse-
quence of those changes, unless some precautions were taken.
But he proposed that the expenses should be shared by all the
parishes of a union, in proportion to the average of their popu-
lation for the last seven years, ending at Lady-day, 1844. As
regarded the equity of this arrangement up to the present
time, he thought it amounted to demonstration that it could
not be impugned. The only argument he anticipated
was a retrosrective one, founded on the fluctuations of trade.
But his proposition as it now stood would not, in point of fact,
increase in the least the hardships arising from the operations
of trade. It was quite true that the tide of manufacturing
enterprise had left some districts and gone to others. That
it had left the Wiltthire district and gone to the North, leaving
the former much embarrassed and depressed. But they could
not prospectively take precautions against these fluctuations of
trade ; but up to this moment he maintained that in such an
arrange, ent as he proposed, there was nothing to increase the
hardships inciden al to these fluctuations. He should weary the
House if he dwelt at greater length on this question, the more
particular details of which would be discussed on future occa-
sions. But he still thought the Bill was one which he was
justified in submitting to the consideration of the House. He
certainly should not presume, if the House permitted him to in-
troduce the measure, to press the second reading till the
House had had ample time to consider the propo-
sition, and he had himself an opportunity of collecting
opinions upon it. But at the same time he felt a confidence
that the merits of the measure would recommend it to all those
whose humanity led them to promote the well-being of the poor
—to all those whose justice impelled them equally and fairly to
distribute that charge which was by right levied from the rich
for the support of the poor—and to the humane and just of the
community at large—he commended the measure, believing that
if well and fully considered it would be found not unworthy of
the attention of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He moved for
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law of settlement.
Colonel WOOD took the earliest oppor unity of
expressing his, regret at the purport of the latter
part of the Right Honourable Baronet's statement.
He would give the Right Hon. Baronet all credit for the atten-
tion he had given to this subject, and many points of his propo-
sition were worthy of the consideration of the House. No
doubt the Right Hon. Baronet thought the measure was cal-
culated to benefit the poor, but if adopted, instead of being any
benefit to the poor man, it would be the greatest injury ever
inflicted upon him. The consequence would be, that all
anxiety to employ the poor in their own parishes would cease.
Labourers would be discharged, and without scruple thrown
for support upon the union. Whenever a time of difficulty
arose, vast numbers would be thrown on the union rate
because it was not a local one. It had been stated that there
had been no parochial rate up to the time of 11.,bu t
the fact was, that up to the time of Elizabeth, three years re-
sidence entitled a man to parochial relief, and by the 39th of
Elizabeth persona could be sent back to the parishes in which
they had resided for one year. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet bad felt it his duty to give up that part of his
Bill which gave a claim for relief on the parish
where a man had resided for five years. He (Colonel
Wood) gave notice that he should introduce a clause by which
every poor man resident in a parish for one year should be en..
titled to relief as casual poor. The proposal of his Right Hon.
Friend that birth alone should give a title to settlement would
not at
remove the complaints now made by the poor.
in
The
family man now complained that he' might bring up a
many years' labour, and he
large in one parish, by
thrown upon a parish in which he was a total stranger. But
that would be precisely the case now, if ,the principle of birth
alone wa. atinpted. A Poor man might be removed to a
'r 'H I •
Is 01l as be the tor nercs.
t: -s• ,L_ ')2` '

objection which could be urged against it.—(Hear.)
He was glad that the time had been reduced so much ; if the
time had been still further reduced he would have been glad of
it ; had it been reduced to three years he should have been still
better pleased ; had it come down to two years, and one year,
it would still be more satisfactory to him ; but he would have
been completely satisfied If there were no limit to the period at
all.--( Hear.) But under all the circumstances he would say
he approved of the present measure, and would give it his most
cordial support.
Sir J. GRAHAM was glad to find that the House had so
favourably viewed the measure ; but he should say he was
somewhat surprised to hear the objections of his two Hon.
Friends behind him. He did think it was not an unreasonable
proposition that a modification should be made in the settlement
period, and that where a poor person was found residing, there
he should find relief if he were in want of it. The Hon.
Baronet then called attention to the enactments of Charley 11.
in reference to the poor-law provisions conferring a settlement
claim, by which it appeared that destitute persons found wan-
dering about should be sent back to their native parishes, in
which they were held to have had a settlement if they had
lived there forty days. He next called attention to the Poor-
law Amendment Act, which, he said, had done away with
parochial relief, and instituted union relief instead. With
regard to the question of the establishment of schools in large
towns, be could assure the Hon. Member opposite that the
question had occupied his attention very closely last year.
District schools had been established by way of experiment,
and he was not yet prepared to say what the result would be.
Mr. WAKLEY begged to say he did not assent to the pro-
visions of this measure, for he looked upon it as one that would
operate in a very extraordinary manner upon the social condi-
tion of this country, for it would, for instance, perpetuate the
power of the Poor-law Guardians.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He understood the taunting cheer of the Hon. Member for
Bath—( A laugh)—it was one of his peculiarities, and he (Mr.
Wakley) understood it. But, nevertheless, he would still
contend for it, that the powers of the guardians should not be
increased. He could say that he knew of one union where
neither the public, the rate-payers, nor the press were admit-
ted, while the guardians were discussing the admission of the
paupers. Therefore he would say it was dangerous to give
these guardians more power ; and he would conclude by again
repeating that he was opposed to the measure.

Leave—was then given to bring in the Bill.
TURNPIKE ACTS.
Lord EBRINGI ON apologised for having so often tres-
passed upon the attention of the House that evening ;
but he begged to will attention to that present
state of the law as affecting turnpikes, upon which
he had several petitions to present, and amongst
others, to that of the South Molton turnpike. He did
not know whether the Government intended resuming their
former measures, or whether they intended to introduce a ge-
neral Bill on this subject. The Right lion. Baronet when he
. .

first introduced the fieasure, stated that it was to be tried in

South Wales as an experiment, and if it succeeded they might
look tor its extension to England. The measure was not lav,,ur-

ably spoken of by the creditors of the turnpike trusts, and he
could not help thinking that some limitation ought to be given
to it. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow him to
bring in a Bill on the subject he should be glad. The measure
he contemplated introducing was to limit the exemption from
tolls only to such a number of mails and horses as might be
thought reasonable and necessary for the public service.
Frequently the number of letters to be transmitted
was exceedingly small, but nevertheless small though the
number was, it served to exempt four horses and a coach from

the payment of tolls. In cases of this description he should
propose to limit the exemption to a cart and horse. Under
these circumstances, he would leave the matter in the hands

of the Government, merely requesting, that if they would not
allow him to bring in the Bid himself, at least they would give
the subj,et some consideration. He moved for leave to bring
in a Hill to discontinue the exemption of mails from paying toll

on turnpike-roads.
Mr. MORRIS seconded the motion. He thought some of
the burden ought to be taken off the farmers and placed on
them who were more able to bear it. He doped the Noble
Lord would succeed in his measure, and he regretted to hear
him say that he did not expect the co-operation of the
Government.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
give the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke the satisfaction of
hearing that. the Government would co-operate with the Noble
Lord. Whatever the inconvenience might be to the turnpike
trusts and the parishes through which mail coaches passed,
that was more than compensated by the advan-
tages which the district derived from the Post-office
communication. The exemption of the mails from toll bad
been established in 1785, and, if it were to be removed, many
districts must be excluded from the advantage of receiving
letters direct from the post-office. If the Bill were to pass into
a law, the country would have imposed upon it a burden of
more than .50,0001. a year for the advantage of particular

districts.
After a few words in reply from Lord EBRINGTON, tl C
motion was negatived without a division.
Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition for the Scottish
CeTnhtreal BHoauiselwathYe•n adjourned at a Quarter past TvrAve o'clock.

FLANDERS MAIL.
BRUSSELS, FEB. B.—The Chamber of Representatives con-
tinued to-day the debate on the Budget of the Minister of the
Interior.
The Minister of Public Works, on a question being put br
M. Brfouckere, promised to acquaint the Chamber in a for
days with the resolutions which the engineers shall have
proposed to him respecting the tunnel of Cumpitch.
M. de lirouckere desires that the tunnel may not be re •
constructed.

At the close of the sitting, the Minister of Public Works
brought forward a modification of the law as to railroad.i—
a modification which is rendered necessary by the convention
concluded between the State and Richards and Co, cal the
iron railway of L'Entre, Sombre, and Meuse.
The King gave audience to-day successively to Lieut.-
General Lellierer, and M. Solvyns, Secretary of Legation at
Constantinople
We learn from Ratisbon that the Rev. Dicpentsock has
refused to accept the d;goity of Prime Bishop of Breslau, to
which he had been elected by the chapter of that city. The
two members of the chapter Ivha were :;ent, to him to inollet:
flout

ere were re

power of makirq
Colonel WO6

remov

_ ne was aware. that thc,,
tiotii on such reincivais, but he thought that if residence gave a
man relict it would prevent mute ti

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Af2CII):::NT.-
lasgrrie A rgit.

Ezcarr LIVES Los
that ciaht hoys,

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haritsbi.).
wa nother eirciimstance which fully entitled
oh the 8000,0 , reservoir for the supply of
the labourer to a settlement. Formerly, every
man that paid I', to the Monklramt ere drowned on the
oor-rates obtaiked a.settlement in the parish in which he The water wn, `!5 feet of tile ice 14i,
rated, and he certainly thought that if they obliged the p 'or fliric
man to pay poor-rates, that should at least entitle him to a-set- tne cia:oielr'et ht
rawwicaitUrtl order' ' "cr•- :'te.roO;et;ilie Lollies. 'Thep
w
tlement in the parish to 'which he paid them. To make the were all found near each other. All who were on the ice at
the tune it broke were drowned.
poor belong to a union and not to a parish, would entirely