The Sun.
London, England, 1826-04-28 00:00:00

RATE OF POSTAGE IN IRELAND.

.Mi. SPRING RICE inquiried if it was the intention of Go-
vernment to adopt any regulation upon this subject, and if
**tin any definite time. He had intended to give notice of a
motion upon the subject, but would be governed by the answer
given to his questions. s.
Mr. lIERRIES replier! that the subject was now under the
consideration of CA' mutissioners of Enquiry, who were expected
itoon.to make a Report. After the report had been received, Go-
vernment would introduce regulations with the view of removing
ill cause of complaint.
Mr. S. RICE expressed his satisfaction with this ans., r.
SILK DUTIES' BILL.
On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, this Bill was committed,
pro jhrnia, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on
Tuesday next.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A Message from the Lordi announced their concurrence itt se-
veral Private 8i1L3.. _ .

Mr. BERRIES presented a return of the Total Amount of
the Unfunded ',/eltt of Great Britain and Ireland.—Laid on the
table.

REFORM OF PARLIANIENT.

Lord J. RUSSELL rose, pursuant to notice, to call the
attention, of the House to the all-important subject of Parlia-
.mentary fiefortn. The circumstances of the country were now
so nearly similar to those in, which he last addressed the House
upOn this subject, that he might be satisfied to rest his case upon
the arguments he bad formely adduced. He thought it his
duty, however, rejecting all dethimation, again to lay before
the House thtm plain and obvioue reasons, which, to his own
mind, were conclusive upon the subject. The necessity of
Government accommodating itself to the intellectual condition
tho progressive intelligence bf the people was recognized
even in those places where the tonit barbarous .and despotic in-
stitutions prevailed. Thus in Turkey a constittitioutd
.wbilst he would, stoutly maintain the right of the Grand Seig-
nior to strike off with his own blind the heads of his subjects
whenever he thought. proper, **ad at the same time insist
noon the necessity of that Monarch appearing at Mosque every
Friday, The Noble, Lord then proceeded to chew that a great
in the general intelligence of the people
advance had taken place
dtiriAt the last century, and that the otercise of the elective
frailChicli had' been narrowed, and consequently the influence of
tha4)eonle upon Government had been Weakened during the
se a Nriod. There existed, it was true, some portion
of 'popular representation in that House, but it was con-
Atatitly overpowered by the greater number of those who were

either the nominees of powerful individuals, or who had found
their way into Parliament by means, to use a short word, of
bribery. During the growth of popular intelligence the state of
the representation had been deteriorated to a degree which me-
naced some diy or other serious calamities to the State. The facts
on which he ibunded'his opinions were not denied even by the
Right Honourable Gentleman who had most strenuously opposed
his proposition. The Noble Lord then referred to the manner in
which Parliament was called together in the reign of Edward
the Third, and inferred from this, and from the purposes for
which only 04 were then assembled, of granting subsidies to the
Crown, that the Members for boroughs and cities,. as well .as
counties, must have represented large populous and flourishing
communities. In support of his assertion, that in those days the
burgesses, who exercised the Elective Franchise, were in fact the
inhabitants at large, he should appeal to an authority which
would not be disputed on the other side of the House. The Lord,
Chancellor had stopped a Counsel in an argument before the
Privy Council, to declare that he had no doubt, that original,
ly all inhabitants were burgesses. The practice had prevailed
of excusing places, on account of their poverty, from the ex-
pence of sending Members to Parliament, and it had been
suggested to him that a Bill might be brought in upon the
principle of the old practice to relieve certain Boroughs whose
voters were reduced to a very small number from this bur-
den. He feared, however, that if he proposed such a measure
he should be told by these voters that he was not acting in
commiseration of their poverty, but that he was striving to
take away from them their only chance of ever getting rich,
by intercepting the shower of wealth with which they were now
refreshed at least once in every six years., Our ancestors never
dreamed of Such places as Old Sarum being represented. The
object was to collect representatives who, acting for their con-
stituents, might grant subsidies to the Sovereign to afford to him
the means of carrying on , his wars. This practice was produc-
tive of whatever was most valuable to our constitution. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the Parliaments
of those days met, granted a subsidy, and separated in a fort-
night. This, however, was not all they did. They struggled
for the liberties of their country, and the great principles of
English liberty were effectually urged and firmly established
by them. He would borrow the equally solid annd acute remark
of a celebrated author, that when we talked of the liberties
purchased by the blood, of our ancestors, we should be nearer
the truth if we described them as the liberties purchased by the
moneyof our ancestors. All he contended for was, that they
ehould return to the wholesome and original principles of the
Constitution. He would now advert to some of the objections
with which he had been met on the fernier occasion. And the
first of these had been the prosperous state of the country. At
the present moment he might, if he chose, retort their own
argument upon his opponents. • He, however, would not do so,
for he thought all such arguments inapplicable to the subject.—
There would, of necessity, be vicissitudes in the condition of such
a country as this, and he did not believe the general pros-
perity of the country to have arisen from any thing which had
been done within the last thirty or forty years. If he wished to
explore the deep and solid foundations of our national greatness,
he must go back four or five hundred years. He would not
reproach Parliament with the Act of 1822, which they had this
Session found it so necessary to repeal, because he did not be-
lieve that by any means a body of men could be brought toge-
ther, who would have the ability to 'protect the country from
occasional commercial revulsions. The elective franchise was a
trust placed in certain bodies for the good of the community.—
He should contend upon the principle that no injury would be
sustained by such bodies if they were for the general good to
be deprived of this trust. Yet although lie maintained this
principle, he did not deny that in fact the exercise of the elective
franchise had become a privilege, and lie should therefore nut
be disposed to resist a fair and proper compensation. In all
cases private rights were held to be subservient to the public
Food. The Noble Lord here instanced the numerous instances
in which the House legislated up& the principle that private
rights were to be sacrificed for the sake of public accommodation
and advantage. Was the proprietor of a borough entitled to
greater tenderness, delicacy, or forbearance, than a poor trades-
man in the Strand, whose house was to be pulled down
with or without his consent, for the sake of widening a

thoroughfare? If the most sacred rights of property might
be thus dealt with, why should not the same principle be
extended to property in boroughs? His object was to ob-
tain a Government under proper controul, and he trusted he
should not be met, as' on former occasions, with the dread of
democratic violence, and the horrors of the French Revo-
lution. This he considered would be bad declamation, and
quite as inapplicable as if in a question relating to the pri-
vilege of the British Peerage, an argument should be drawn
from the conduct of the tyrannical aristocracy of Venice, or se
if in a question upon the prerogatives of the British crown, a
tirade should be introduced against arbitrary and despotic sway.
Such arguments would have as littl to do with those question,
as the dangers of democracy had to do with the present. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had often add; that after all the constitu-
tion works well. If he could be convinced of that, whatever dif-
_ _

ficulty he might have in reconciling it to abstract principle, he for
one should not be anxious for chan fe. But he was convinced
that it did not work well, and that it worked so ill as to threaten
the overthrow of the Constitution. He was not going to advert
to the Bullion question, or to any Other upon which Parliament
had fallen into error. This was not the test which he was de-
sirous of applying to it. The decision of any questions of policy
excepting such as were between the people and the Crown, might
be as safely entrusted to the Privy Council or any other body as
to that House. But the true test was, the conduct of that
House upon questions between the p,ople and Crown. He
found the tllouse perpetually uffirming or denying propositions, not
in unison, but in hostility to the opinions of the people; and he in-
ferred from this fact, that the House did not adequately represent
the people. This Was the same argument which had been employed
by Mr. Fox at the end of the American war, and upon. this he was
content to rest his case in favour of Parliamentary Reform. These
were the considerations which impressed upon-his mind the duty,
even at this late period of the present Parliament, of urging this sub-
ject upon the House. They all knew the strong disposition mani-
fested by the people some tune ago upon this subject, and they also
knew the strong coercive measures adopted to repress that dispo-
sition. If the same cause of coercion had continued, it would,
he apprehended, have led to violent convulsions and calamities.
His Majesty's Ministers had, however, Materially changed their
course, and had in fact at last adopted many recommendations
which had repeatedly been urged in vain from that side of the
House. He would read the solutions submitted to the House
in March 1817, by his Honourable and Learned Friend the
Member. for Winchelsea.—(The Noble Lord here read a string
of Resolutions in favour of unrestricted commerce,)—The Or-
der of the Day was moved and the House voted for it, and thus
negatived the Resolutions by a very great majority. Yet these
very Resolutions contained. the substance of half the measures
in which they had been engaged during the last two or three
Sessions. lint although the present Ministers had changed the
policy of the Government, he very' much doubted whether they
would be able to carry that policy into full effect with a House of
Commons constituted as the present House was. He admitted
that many of their measures had been highly useful to the coun-
try, but yet not so useful as to convince him that the existing
system of sending Members to thst House ought to be preserved.
He expected that in the next Parliament, if chosen in the same
manner as this had been, they should find those who were sent
there, not by the people, but by interests totally different from
those of the people,, preventing the consummatfon of the .polity
which the Ministers had begun to adopt. He thought-the great
borough proprietors, would place the Ministers in that dilemma;
and no course could therefore be so advantageous to them, as to
meet in the next Parliament the Representatives of the People
only, from whom, it they persevered in measures of public be-
nefit, they would receive that overpowering support which no-
thing could resist ; but which he was not so sure they would re-
ceive, if they now refusad to give to the people their justlshare
in the, representation of the country. Having stated the rea-
sons why it appeared to him that a Reform in Parliament was
necessary, before he sat down, he should briefly explain his in-
tentions in following up this molution, if it met the support of
the House. The measure he should propose would not differ
from that which he had proposed on two former occasions. He
should propose to take a hundred of the smallest boroughs, and
let them send one Member each to Parliament instead of two.—
The number so taken from them to be returned by the Countiei,
and by unrepresented towns which had grown up into importance.
It would be for the House to deal with this plan as it pleased,
or to substitute any other; but that was the course which he
Should recommend. Two methods of reform had been proposed
upon various occasions. The one was to remodel the construction
of the House altogether—the other, a partial reform by which
they should be infusing new vigour into the Constitution. He
preferred the latter. It was suggested by Lord Chatham, adopted
by Mr. Pitt, and always supported by Mr. Fox. After quoting a
passage from a speech in, which Mr. Fox supported the principle
of partial reform, the NOble Lord concluded by moving, "that
the present state of the representation of the people in Parliament,
require* the most serious consideration of this House."—(Hear,
hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORPE seconded the motion. After the admirable
speech of his Noble Friend, so full of good sense and argument,
and so free from declamation, he should not trouble the House

erther than to say, that in the present state of the representa-
tion the people had not that due preponderance which secured to
them the certainty of good government. He did not mean to
say that the people had not good government under the present
Ministers, because it was in the power of the most absolute Go-
vernment to govern well if they chose.—(Hear, hear.)—But he
contended that the people bad a right to be secured by, the na-
ture of their representation from the possibility of being governed
otherwise.

• Mr. S. E. DENISON said, that all • the claim he had upon
the indulgence of the House was that he cametinto the debate for
the first time. Neither had the Noble Lord, as it appeared to
him, placed the subject in any new light, nor taken any new
ground in defence of his proposition, which had not before been
triumphantly refuted. The Noble Lord hail argued the .question
upon its general merits, and " upon its general merits he should
attempt to reply. The Noble Lord had—pointing to the Right
.Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and others of his Majesty's
Ministers—stated as a reason why they ought to proceed to a
reform in Parliament, that they, had already entered Upon
the reform of abuses in various department of the Government.
Now he thought that argument ought not to be confined to
Ministers, but applied with equal force to those almost unani-
mous decisions of- the House which confirmed and gave autho-
rity to such propositions. But because his Majesty's Ministers
found abuses and reformed them in their departments, was it ne-
cessary that they shoUld lend themselves to every sweeping plan
of reform that might be proposed? 'On the contrary, was that
not rather an argument proving that they would not lend them-
selves to abuse where they found it to exist. Helhought it would
be but fair to think that they resisted the present question upon prin-
ciple ; and in doing so, he thought them fully entitle'd to the confi-
dence of the House.—(Cheers.)—Under the peculiar situation of
the country during this Session, the House had thought fit to lay
aside many important questions which might otherwise have claimed
their deliberation ; but he could conceive no topic which might so
well have been suffered to sleep as the topieof reform, during the ex-
cited feelings of the people of England, under their present sufferings.
Was there anything in the conduct of the existing Psrliament worse
than, that of its predecessors, which called for immediate redress?
He had the authority of the. Hon. Baronet, the Member for West-
minster, in favour .of. one side .of the House at. least. The Ho-
nourable Baronet declared in, his speech on a former night, that in
all his long experience of Parliament he had never sat with so ho-
nourable an Opposition as that which now surrounded him.—
He believed that he might apply the same eulogiutn with equal
truth to the side of the House on which he was sitting.
Had the present Parliament been insensible to the influence of
the Crown, and had they allowed it to steal upon them
without resistance ? If such an assertion were made to him,
he should appeal to the vote of the other night, when a propo-
sition was defeated upon that , ground, and which appeared to
him not to merit the suspicion it encountered. But to proceed
more directly to the immediate question before the House,
the Noble Lord had taken care to disclaim all connection or
community of feeling with the party who espoused and advo-
cated doctrines of violent reform. Put the Noble Lord would
excuse him if—giving him fill credit for the sincerity of his in-
tentions--he could not rely with confidence upon his being
able to preserve the distinction which he drew between the two
reforming doctrines. Nothing which the Noble Lord could do
would make that party believe, if his proposition were carried,
that it was not one step towards a reform upon principle ; and a
reform upon principle must of necessity approach to a uniformity
of representation. They had two living examples in which flys-
terns with a uniformity of representation existed, and to these he
would call the attention of the House very shortly. In France the
elective franchise wasfoundecl exclusively upon property, and the
representative principle was therefore uniform. To regulate the
number of voters, a high average of property was necessary, and
the consequence was, that the interests of the lower classes, so
beneficially and usefully represented in that House, were com-
pletely excluded. In order to reform upon this system, they
must proceed to disfranchise a large body of the present electors
of the kingdom ; and he believed they knew too well the man-
ner in which it worked in France to wish for such a change.

The next principle of reform was that which would place the ie-
presentation upon a more popular basis, approaching it nearer
to the uniformity of a representative democracy. An example
of this system was presented by the United States of North 1
America. In what he should say respecting the constitution of
that country, he wished to guard himself against the miscon-
struction of meaning any thing invidious or disrespectful. It
did not follow that what was bad here must be so there. Here,
what we had of liberty had been wrestled from absolute power.—
There, what they possessed of controul had been built up as a
check upon general licentiousness. The Hon. Member then
described the nature of the American Constitution, and con-
tended that no argument, as refCrable to this country, could be
deduced from that. Tbo Members assembled at Washington
rather as the agents of local States than as councillors direct-
ing the complicated affairs of a great nation. Almost all their
different States had different interests, 'and each man was
there as an Ambassador,: to grant nothing to one legal interest
for which he did not gain an equivalent in favour of his own.
We, fortunately, had no such distinctions here; the interests of
the whole community were bound up together, and it was the
duty of the Members of that House to look only at the general
welfare of the country. If any argument drawn from the repre-
sentative system of Arfierica could be carried to this country, it
must rather be taken :from the Constitution of a single State,
than from that of the Union. Whether the Constitution
of any one of those States would be capable of working those
complicated affairs of a great country this, he would not
stop to inquire; but certain he was that such an experi-
ment had never been tried. He feared he was fatiguing the
House.—(Loud Cheers.)—He had shewn that no reform could
be effected, with satisaetion to the great majority of Reformers,
but a reform upon principle ; and he knew of no representative
principle but the two of which he had been speaking. .He,
• then, was 'not prepared to change this—imperfect if 'they liked
—impure if they hked—but this efficient system by which they
were assembled that day. In the mixed character of our
Constitution, we had the principle of the French system of
property, controlled by .a Sufficient infusion of the American
principle of democracy. That House, partaking of both those
systems, and therefore peculiarly apapted to the wealth and the
freedom of the country, gave introduction to all parties and all
principles, and admitted the expression of every opinion that
could be useful in the councils of the nation. He believed that to
the admirable balance of the aristocracy and democracy in that
House, the country owed much of its honours, much of its safety,
' and much of that distinction, for which it was admired and en-
vied abroad. It was owing to that admiruble balance that no one
Parliament deviated much from the. Parliament on which its pre-
' decessors trod ; it was owing to that admirable balance that, not-
' withstanding the changes which took • place in the individual
' members which composed them, they even all preserved the same
tenor of politics, the same moderation of purpose, the same con-
' sistency of design---
cc enim plus septima ducitur uxor
" At genus immortale menet multosque per annos
" Stat fortuna donna et nvi numerantur avorum."
. .

It was this perpetuity of principle that he wished to preserve. He '
was not blind to the incongruities of the system ; but he feared
lest in attempting to remove those parts which appeared defective
he might destroy the whole. He could see the inconsistencies
which the Noble Lord bad pointed out ; but although the fabric
of our Constitution, might not be formed upon the principles of
Grecian uniformity, but 'rather partook the character of its own
proper Gothic, he roues .et stand in awe and
„admiration of its
grandeur, for he dared not approach it with the hand of specious
reform.—(Much cheering.)
Mr. ROSS opposed the motion. Although the Resolution,
proposed by the Noble Lord was of so limited a nature, he
hoped the House would meet the question upon principle, and
dispose of ,it at once. The Noble Lord called for Reform
upon the ground of the increased power and intelligence of the
people, while others, with whom the Noble Lord generally
agreed, asked for it as a check to the increased influence of
the Crown and the Aristocracy. The Honourable Member went
into several historical statements, to chew that the influence of
the Crown in regard to the state of the House had been greatly
diminished, and that the influence of the people had increased.
Did the Noble Lord reckon as nothing the influence of public
opinion, which had grown up in consequence of the manner in
which their proceedings were communicated to the world. Not
a word could he spoken, but in an incredibly short space of
time it was published in the remotest corners of the Empire.
He contended that there had been, and could be no in-
crease of the number of close boroughs, and that the House
ought not to be the mere echo of the temporary wishes and
feelings of the people. Ile quoted Mr. Burke's speech in the year
1784, in which' that great Statesman denied that a Member of
Parliament ought to be sent there to vote against the honest con-
viction of his own judgment and conscience. The rights of these
hundred Boroughs would only be a prelude to the destruction of
the whole, and ultimately of the Constitution. However much
the Noble Lord might wish to do so, he would not be able to re-
sist the progress of destruction when it had once commenced.
Lord GLENORCHY approached this question with consider-
able doubt, but looking to the case of the City of Edinburgh, he
was convinced that no specific cause of at: Ise would be remedied
without a general measure of Reform. The whole defence of the
present system was,
that the good made up for the bad. This

appeared to him as absurd as ifs man who kept the company of
thieves and villains was advised to remain there because he had
not actually found their hands in his own pockets. That Mem-
bers of the other House should have the power of sending 8, or
10. or 12 to that, was an insupportable grievance, and one which
struck at the very vitals of the Constitution.
Mr. HOBHOUSE thought the Noble Lord entitled to great
praise for the moderation which he observed in dealing with the
subject before the House. He had told them, that when people
were. in the company of thieves and villains, they were not
bound lo defer their complaints till they felt strange hands in
their pockets. The expression was rather hard to be sure, but
yet as an illustration it was just, and he (Mr. Hobhouse) would
go further and say that the English people had actually found the
hands in their pockets. He had frequently spoken on this sub-
ject, and though his exertions had not availed to effect the ob-
ject for which they were designed, he was yet bound, in the
language or the old Scotch Reformers, to " testify." The
Honourable Member for Newcastle-under-Line saw the pheno-
mena of the times quite differently from him, and used language
much like to that which Ovid put into the mouth of a Papal

Deity—
Nitor in adversum ; nee me, qui caetera, vincit
Impetus; et rapido contrarius evehor orbi.
The Honourable Gentleman went against the current of opinion,
which swayed most of the Members of the House, and which he
doubted not would eventually 'bear him down. To the talents
and high attainments of the Honourable Gentleman he bore
unequivocal testimony. " liinam noster esset,"—said he—
Would that he were on our side, and that we had the ad-
' vantage of his powerful assistance. The Honourable Gen-
tleman seemed to think that there was something new in
the Institutions of America, and this was .the. conclusion
with which he (Mr. Hobbouse) quarrelled. It should not be
forgotten that the Americans had learned to be what they
were from the free spirit of our Constitution winch they inhe-
rited. It was not in America that they learned democratic
principles of Government : they only fought over again the
battles which our ancestors fought at the period
.of the Re-
volution, as well as at many former periods.. Our Penns,
cur Hariapdens, and our Seldens, were those out of whose
book the Americans took a leaf to inform them, that there was
no security for good ,government but ,in a fair representative
system. The Hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Line had said
that there were only two modes of Reform to pursue ; the first
of which was the French system of property, and the second, the
American plan of democratic representation. Now as to the first
it was not the fact that in France property was the basis of repre-
sentation. It was indeed its apparent basis, as it was here also ;
but in France the returning officers, if he might so name them,
were really under the controul of Government. The elections
there were the point to which Government directed its particular
attention, and for the purpose of crushing the aspirations of the
people after liberty—to use a metaphor which he had employed
before—he took a leaf from England's book. The system of
oppression in France did not arise from Aristocracy, it succeeded

only because there was no Aristocracy to oppose its progrms.—
To cut the Aristocracy of a country into shreds, was never
advantageous to, the cause of freedom, as was evident in the
case of France. There the grossest bribery prevailed, nut
indeed in so complete a way as here, because we had not lived so
long for nothing, but had availed ourselves of the docrities of our
Walpoles and Pelhants of former days. We did not, it was true,
break down bridges or stop fences to prevent electors from pass-
ing, fur we knew how to manage matters better and more speci-
ously without having recourse to those overt acts. The Hon.
Gentlemen also asked whether the House was less pure or more
corrupt now than at any former time. He really did not
know how it could be more corrupt : the Ministers were al-
ways sure of • having a majority, and what more did they
want ? It was adduced by the Honourable Gentleman in proof
of the purity of the House, that the salary lately proposed for
the President of the Board of Trade had been withheld. In this
he chewed that he agreed in the public opinion which prevailed
on that subject ; but he gave a pretty character to the majority,
who voted upon that question. That very vote he would challenge
as a complete instance of corruption. Of eighty-seven Members,
who voted with Ministers, thirty-eight bad salaries under Go-
vernment, ten more were connected with the former by ties of
blood, and there was only one County Member in the whole ma-
jority. It might be a reason why the County Members had
not lent their aid that this was the last Session of the present
Parliament ; but if another Session remained, the case might
have been very different. A Parliament during its last Session,
frequently resembled a repentant sinner on a death-heel, who,
as Swift said, after a life spent in iniquity was willing to sacri-
fice to God the leavings of the devil. Before they departed
this Parliamentary life, they generally desired to shew some signs
of grace, and after voting against the people throughout the early
part of their career, they thought it adviseable to vote for them
towards the close, previous to their dissolution. It was urged
by the Honourable Member for Newcastle-under-Line, that if
they did not adopt either the American or the French plan of
Reform, there was no other plan for theni to adopt. But he
could assure the Hon. Gentleman, that such was net the case:
they had a plan of their own, independently of either of those
named. Nay, there were many plans :—the Hon. Member for
Durham could propose one ; he could himself propose another ; and
many Hon. Members had each his particular plan to suggest.—
That the House should come to the vote now in contemplation was
a considerable step in the matter : it was getting the fine end of
the wedge into the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and when so
much was effected, he hoped the whole would be driven through.
(Hear, hear.)—He avowed that it was Lis object to bring about
an efficient reform.' If thit cheer were meant to intimate that
the refintners of the present (lay raeant more than they said, or
that they aimed at revolution, he would tell them that the re-
formers had more to lose by revolution than many of those, who
were opposed to them. They ought to do the Reformers
of England the credit to admit that they were perfectly sin-
cere in the expression of their views. No one should be
allowed to believe that England never had a proper representa-
tion. According to the statement of the Honourable Member
for Orford, the non-electors of this kingdom in the mass were pos-
sessed of no property whatsoever, and were quite undeserving of
consideration. This was a proposition so exceedingly odd and
absurd, thaf it wrs a pity they (the Opposition) could not see the
smile which must have played on the countenances of the Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite, while they were thus instructed.
In fact it was the great objection, that while the opulent menu-
facturiug interests of the
,country—while such towns as Man-
chester and Birmingham were left unrepresented, such places: as
Orford, which had the honour of returning the Hon. Member,
should have such an advantage over the former. Those in gene-
ral who had the right to vote were the most ragged portion of
society, who would most properly be consigned to a poor-house.
They were inevitably led to commit perjury, as giving their vote
under the influence of others, and not with regard to the interests
of their country. In his views of the people's right to a fair re-
presentation he was borne out by the presumption of the Act of
Parliament, which made it necessary for a placeman to go back to his
constituents to know whether they approved of him as their represen-
tative under the change of his circumstances. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, who had once represented Liverpool, did not go back there
to seek the consent of his constituents, but to one of those conve-
nient places that would send in King Log if they were ordered.
Was it not a powerful fact in support of his case, that the Right
Hon. Gentleman deemed it inconsistent with his duty to represent
Liverpool? Another proof of the necessity of reform would be
found in the multitude of statutes against bribery at elections. Did
not those statutes imply the necessity of representation, and were
they not notoriously broken? Mr. Burke, who said every thing
about every thing, declared, that for all proper purposes the House
of Commons was not a House of Commons. So said he. Let
them say if they would, that the system was a good one, and
worked well ; but let them not hold out that it was a fair re-
presentation. The Hon. Member for Montrose said, the other
night, that if the Opposition would but do their thity, God knows
what wonders might be achieved. Now this was delusive language
fur if the Opposition tried their strength, and mustered every night,
so would Ministers. The only result would be, that while one
party had a great minority, the other party would have a great
majority. Such was the case in the time of Mr. Fox and Mr.
Pit. Such was the case when the Hon. Member for Montrose
brought on his motions in 1821 and 1822. Influence was inva-
riably decisive many Gentlemen came down on purpose to vote
with Ministers, and must do so from motives of honour end the
esprit de corps, until the King would please to turn his favours
into another channel. It was the best way for the Opposition to own
the power of Ministers and bow before it. He supported them from a
to do wrong if they pleased. When a bill was introduced to ex-
elude Mr. Tooke from Parliament he expressed himself obliged to
powergra grateful sense of their frequently doing right when it was in their
Ministers for not ordering him to be hanged on the lobby of the House,
being fully assured that they had it quite within their power to do
so. It was therefore that he (Mr. II.) was grateful for the smallest
donations they were pleased to bestow.—(A laugh.)—The pre-
sent wail a good time for the discussion of the question. For
in 1824 the Chancellor of the Exchequer attributed the prospe-
rity of the country to the much calumniated Parliament, and
if distress now prevailed he thought that some blame ought to
attach to Parliament. Now was the time to inquire whether
t
ywearell.lBlT9o,
wthheenfin:inr.cialv
opsari
tttoro ft it he
i he systemchiefly
,Nowolebtjeewusworhkea.
have
Tqaiullirteethalseosinking
fund," Parliament was never

aware that the old sinking fund was a sham. Ire next objected to
the dead weight for which a Bill was introduced April 29, 1822.
Only 54 persons in the whole House had been able to see the ab-
surdity of that scheme—and it had been carried by triumphant
majorities—which was so wild, that even the Right Honourable
Secretary for Foreign Affairs was reduced to confess " that he
did not understand it."--(Hear, hear !)—And this was the finals=
cial wisdom of Parliament ! the truth was, the " wisdom of Par-
liament," was ever the folly of the Minister of the day.—(Hear,
hear !)—lt signified nothing who was the Minister—not a point ;
except, indeed, that out of the peculiar, impartial, and generous
feeling of the House, it did appear that they rather preferred a
Minister who was pre-eminently stupid and absurd.—(Laughter.)
—Of the majorities of that House, he might say as the poet said
of the inhabitants of Jerusalem—
" Of whatsoe'er descent their god-head be, . . •
" Stock, stone, or other homely pedigree,
" In his defence his servants are as bold
" As if he had been born of beaten gold."
(Hear, and laughter.)—The Hon. Member then went on to ana-
lyze the ingredients of which the majorities of the House were
habitually composed, and insisted upon the host of placemen who
voted tooth and nail with Ministers on all occasions. The officers ,
of the army and navy he did not place precisely in the same poli-
tical rank ; but at the same time, no one could deny that it was
difficult for gentlemen in those professions to oppose the ' •
Government on particular occasions. Of the majority who -
lately voted with Ministers for the disposal of 183,5722
of the public money, 89 were placemen, and 59 were oflioers
in the army or navy. The same 89 chiefly aided in the' four-
teen
majorities which Ministers had in the years 1821 and 1822,
In 36 questions which occurred in those years, 25 County Mem-
bers voted with Ministers and 37 against them-13 Welch Mem-
bers voted for them, and nine against the. Of the Members for
89 Cities and Boroughs where an elective Body existed, 57 were
on the side of Ministers, and 107 against them. But of the Mem-
bers nominated by individuals, 151 supported Ministers, and only
12 voted against them—five voted occasionally on different sides,
and 28 not at all. In vain did the Right Hon. Gentleman on the
opposite side say that he would scorn a venal majority. He would
be stripped of his power if he were deprived of his patronage and
eornpelledto charm them by the natural graces of truth and wis-
dom. On the 3d of June, 1822, when the Right Hon. Gentle-
man introduced the Corn Importation Bill, with what was termed
a grinding clause for the landed interest, thOlatter resisted the
sure through their most sonorous organ,theHon.Member for Sower-
setshire. On the first reading there were 149 Ayes, and 41Noes. But
on the 10th of the same month, when the Marquis of Londonderry
as Chancellor of the Exchequer, said thht he had altered his mind
on the subject, and advised the Hon. Secretary not to put the
clause, and when the latter persisted in pressing the measure,
being determined to try his strength, he had only 21 Members to
support him, and 116 opposed the clause. Such was then his.
fate, and such would it be now if the thunders of his eloquence
were heard on the ill-omened left. He had a right to say that the
cause of reform was advancing, wheri he considered the refocus which
had already been introduced by the Right Hon. Secretary for the
Home Department, in the Jury Laws and the Criminal Code, and
also the alterations in the Laws of Trade, brought in by a Right
Hon. Member of the Cabinet of the King. He augured well for
reform, when he recollected that the Right Hon. Secretary for
Foreign Affairs had broken the connection with foreign despot*
which had been so disgraceful to this country.—(Cheers.)
Lord L. GOWER reviewed at considerable length the argu-
ments which had been used in favour of an imrnedate reform in
the Legislature, and contended that the fact had not been esta-
blished by any of, them that society was not fairly represented
under the present system. He had again heard the assertion
an often made by certain persons of late, that the representa-
tion was not correspondent with, or proportionate to the im-
proved state of that society which it represented, as if there
was still a body of intelligent individuals, or rather a mass of
intelligence itself; wandering about the country uurepresented,-•
This he felt convinced, as far as he knew any thing of societis •
was altogether unfounded. With respect to the asserted lofity"
ence and controul exercised by the Public Press in this day
over the public and that House, he was not blind to its effects
he must confess that public men, and particularly the represen-
tatives of the people within whose walls were all within its
mpoiwnderfuled him of theft
its zenith of power by the historian Gibbon, when he said that
such was its power, such the extent of its influence, throughout
description
aptgrionea and potent engine, which re-
minded
tiwyorerldm,otethatot
pnroovcoe
aunst22c•
ttwiaasgiryvseuffiton octfhieosethntleywnpohoomawitrdruEtihionerPhisratelp-..e
hnpt,-nuodrustntoitndbreeredafovrmehaitsivnehoanestiloseddlitynnothrisnexf
eycidfris:,,aresntoenuityrnentot.e—ou(viicetaior; i be
were rot fully aware how much it bad done in effecting an im-
vineeil
ttilhaeumleost:toarnporneyiw:er.Gh;:cimlhearwnaila-l'fcoo nvincin ieCeS of
That in matters of this descr?prtiiofnhtle iewepreen ovitatiyet.n..7.tnit;
inin his memory it
as
-
more et ective and potent weapon than the sword. 11 ereil'ivtl'at
r Ireland
pazsage in a speech which he hall had the pleasure t° 'ew: one of
t bad
ever had the good fortune to heagr. P He alluded to the spee
tition of the Roman Catholics, who prayed for Eusancirtior!. lit
that speech it was said " that time was au innovator. Thus
_e
was time hail imperceptibly encroached upon the constitutiou.
England ; but the changes which it wrought had only frier
render the structure more venerable, and had taken nothing
its beauties. The lines written by Dryden on a picture of the cs:
lebrated Sir Godfrey Kneller might with equal propriety be 4r
plied to the constitution of England
" What mortal art can do is here exprest ;
oratory tba
" Mellow your shadows and your colours blond, ,
" And give the picture all that art can lend ;
" But Time, with friendly hagnidvi,"hgashidslePi support
rest.o theme
" Time only lends new beauties to decay,
" And adds more graces than it takes away."
The Noble I ord concluded by repeating his conviction that the
present was not the time for the introduction of this measure.
Mr. R. MARTIN thought that the eve of a general election.--
an occasion when no man could say when he left that House at the
conclusion of the session whether he should ever enter it more
(hear, and laughter)—was no time for the agitation of this gust'
tit)a. For himself, he should only say, whether be ritUrped t°
Parliament or not,---and he could not answer for his return, as
6
corrupt opposition, headed by one who was indebted to him for his
seat in that House, had been batched against him—whether I's
was again returned to sit in Parliament, or whether he wss
to
de-
prived of that honour, he should never attribute his (I,o'
Parliamentary
PALMER,oicorruption. The
he lltohne.nGoteicentlwemhianch shadpokbeee:
tepee
length against the motion.
General
of him by the Hon. Member for Orford, and other observatr
lately made upon the representation of the city of Bath,
sirous of saying a few words on the part of his constituents
himself. As a friend to reform, although the reprieentatiss,°oo,
close borough, he had stood in the same predicament as the
Member for Caine, in his late attempt to amend the reltse.
tation of the City of Edinburgh; but whatever
thought of his conduct, he had voted with a mincers ,71,0
to carry the question, and as he had done by Edinbuvri,..
would have done by Bath, had her case been brought ~
ward. How far in this he had consulted the feelings of le
stituents, would be soon for them to determine ; but eee°slcioe
ing the personal attack lately made upon them, be IX'yert
take the liberty of observing that tbe city of Bath had of
the only example of a close borough, alike independent °`try;
Crown, the administration, and the aristocracy of the co
Members, ut: had
and of which, as one of its embers, he could dean?, '! oat
not a single vote at his command, but was indebted for los
tot
solely to the free will of the electors. It was true, pelliseh,snegir
the greater
rembPelrst mbeiglohntgedthrothugthhephmysiedcicatioPtrhereiroip7 ;hebult°7r,iAw iAist
least they would give his constituents credit for their eoto: ore
not availing themselves of their unconstitutional power t

mote their private interests.
Mr. WILLIAM LAMB said, that after considering the till;
meats advanced in support of the measure proposed by the ,(1.;,0
L rd, he was obliged from conviction to vote against it' A the
great objection which he had to the measure altogether, eybe
great ground on which he rested his opposition to it was, tb3hitt
could not see, nor had any person pointed out clearly to Min' whoa
real benefit could be derived from it. The Noble igever„fohie
stated, that he was not favourable to a democracy.....the bet
Seconder had echoed the same opinion—and the Hon. 311,0
for Westminster had declared that ,he wished for nothiPf..r.
could tend to revolution. Now, he would only say, in alls L—e got
this, that individuals did not always want what they got, _7o)hat,
what they wanted.—(llear.)—The question here was, they
gentlemen were seeking ; but supposing they got that whir.'
c°to.
sought, what an effect such an event would have on the ~ttoeleti
tion? And his opinion was, that the alteration which Wes
would trench extremely on the monarchical portion of the Cn the
tution.—(Hear, hear.)—He would not stop to arguei lillettha-
influence of the democracy was too, great or too littiO in 7.loted
lance of the constitution. This, however, he would
decisively declare ; that, while he would do nothing to
it, he certainly would do nothing that could have Ow tentien"o..
increase it.--(Heat;.)---In his opinion all the advantage°
peered to be on the part of the people. Ttie pro,..ofl`;
I rally in their favour, and most of 'the spet:ebm, a
delivered this evening were, Perlialis; !Taco filed to

out.

LONDON,
! FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 28, 1826.

From the Parliamentary Reports it will be perceived
that Mr. ELLISON having presented a petition from
the Ship-owners of North Shields against the Reel-
Proeity Laws—Mr. HUSKISSON gave notice of a
Motion for Tuesday next—when he hoped to satisfy
the Rouse of the policy of these Laws. The Right
lion. Gentleman took the opportunity of offering some
etAorka on the attack made on him by Mr. BARING
Ile nights ago, for being absent when some petition
other was presented to the House. We should
hre thought that the acknowledged diligence of the
'resident of the Board of Trade would have prevented

Members of opposition from catching at these pitiful
opportunities for abusing Ministers. .
Lord JOHN RUSSEL brought forward his motion,
on the subject of Parliamentary Reform. The atzu-
mints on either side are so ably and fully stated, that
it would be presumptuous to offer any remarks of

OUT own.

Mr. PEEL obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the " Stealing from Gardens Act ;" but to the
disgrace of the country, the Spring Guns Bill was
thrown out, though it received the support of the
Home Secretary. It is indeed gratifying to see

that Right Honourable Gentleman directing his
great talents to minute, but important objects of
legislation, and seeking for an enduring fame from
the whole tenor of his conduct—rather than tilting for

it on sPlendid occasions only, and resigning all detail
to inferiors, as has been too much the case in former
periods of our history.

The accounts from Lancashire continue to be of

she most distressing nature. The mob, according to
these accounts, had succeeded in destroying the power-
looms in several other manufactories, notwithstanding

the means of defence used by the proprietors, and the
assistance of the military. For the afflicting particu-
lars, we must refer to the extracts from the country
papers, given in another part of our Journal. We
urged yesterday the necessity of using the strong arm
of power, to deter the unfortunate manufacturers from
pursuing a course, as injurious to their own interests
as to those of the owners of property, while at the
same time we recommended that immediate measures
should be taken for affording relief to the urgent dis-
tress which exists in that particular district. Subse-
quent information only tends to confirm our opinion,
that prompt and vigorous measures ought to be taken
to put down the rioters at once, and to show them that
distress can never be permitted as a justification of
outrageous acts, which, whatever may be their occa-
sion, must be punished with.the utmost severity of the
law. If measures of this nature are not forthwith
adopted, the mistaken and injurious principle upon
which the rioters have acted will spread with the ra-
pidity of a flame, and the whole of the machine pro-
perty of tile manufacturing districts of Lancashire will
be sacrificed to their infuriated feelings. Their passions
will by degrees become more excited, and consequences
of the most terrific nature may ensue. Let it not, how-
ever, be for a moment supposed, that in urging the use
of strong measures, we do not truly and deeply sympa-
thize in the piteous distress which exists among these
poor people. The transition which they have expe-
rienced within the last few months, from a state of
comparative prosperity—from full employment and
high wages—to a state of absolute want of employ-
ment and means of subsistence—has been as calami-
tous as it was sudden and unlooked for.—No fault
of theirs occasioned this reverse, nor could any exer-
tion of theirs have prevented it. Their activity and
hard labour, indeed, contributed to hasten the crisis
which has arisen by the production of that immense
stock which has glutted every market, but they are not
to be blamed for this. They are rather to be pitied,
that the means of others to purchase, have not conti-
nued in the same ratio as theirs to produce.
Their distress, therefore, is justly deserving of relief.
Let that relief be promptly bestowed. Let the bene-
volent example set by the Meeting to be held in Lon-
don, for the purpose of obtaining contributions for this
object, be followed through all those parts of the
Kingdom to which distress has not extended, by which
a sum may be raised sufficient, at all events, to afford
a temporary relief, and allow time for other means to
be devised for applying a more prompt and effec-
tual cure to their existing misfortunes. No disaffected

or malicious feelings against their employers have been
mixed up with the proceedings of the rioters, and we
have no doubt that,:with the means of subsistence, quiet
and order would speedily return.

The French Papers of Tuesday arrived last night,
but they contain nothing worthy of remark. By the
latest accounts from Corfu, Missolonghi still held

Cape Town Papers to the 9th February have ar.
rived, but their contents are wholly unimportant.

The German Mail received this morning contains
the subjoined article from the Rhine, and another from
Palermo respecting the re-appearance of a beautiful
Comet in that quarter :

FROM THE RHINE—(at the end of March.)

It has often been remarked, and sometimes publicly said, that
the helplessness of the German people, which frequently manifests
itself on occasions of active interference in the public affairs of the
country, is a singular contrast to the knowledge and enlightened
views which are so generally diffused, and to the eager participa-
tion in public events, which is often so loudly expressed in words.
A very striking instance of this is afforded by what passed on the
81st and 28th February, at Coblents and Du&seldorff; in the
election of Deputies to the Second Estate to the Provincial Diet.
To this estate belong all the possessors of what were formerly
noble estates, without any regard to the difference of old or new
nobility, or persons not noble. It was to be foreseen that the de-
!scentlants of the ancient families, who► in the former ecclesiastical
states, were elevated, by privileges of all kinds, far above all the
other classes, would not be at all pleased at being ranked in the
same state with persons not noble. It was even known that some
individuals of this class had addressed remonstances to the King
of Prussia against this analgamation, which were rejected with
equal mildness and decision. It could not therefore escape the
most limited penetration, that the members of this formerly so
highly privileged body, would take the opportunity of the elections,
in order to get the direction of the Grand Estate of the Provincial
Assembly into their hands, after the law and the express; will of
the King had denied it as a privilege. Yet this notorious state

of things, and the certainty of the consequences, could not induce
the not-noble landowners of the province, who make the great
majority of the second estate, to agree together in the exercise of
the new political rights given them by the law, and the will of
our most just Xiang. • Most of them did not attend at the elec-
tion : the consequence was such as to be expected under much
circumstances.

The twelve Deputies elected in Coblentz belong, without ex-
ception, to ancient noble families; and of the 13 elected at Dussel-
dorf% there are only two who belong to the class of landholders not
noble. We hope that these events will serve to give such a direc-
tion to the elections of the 3d and 4th estates, as to shew that the
proprietors who are not noble will place themselves on a level
with the old nobility in the exercise of their political rights, as
they claim to be equal to them by their wealth and education.
PALERMO,' )!ARCS 23.

The beautiful comet, wnich, in the months of September and
October, last year, shone with such splendour in our southern he-
misphere, and then withdrew to amaze the savage tribes of the
other hemispheres, has now returned to our horizon. But it is now
shorn of its beams ; and as if ashamed of its nakedness, con-
ceals itself from the eyes of the curious in the rays of the
morning twilight. On the ISth, however, it was observed
from our Royal Observatory, by Signor Caceratore, about
an hour and a quarter before sun-rise, between the legs of Sagit-
tarius; its right ascension was 269 deg., and south declination
47 deg. 45 min. If the mountain did not cover 5 degrees of the'
southern horizon of Palermo, it might have been seen some days
earlier.

It appears by accounts from the Hague of the 26th
instant, that the Government of the Netherlands is
about to raise a New Loan of 40 million of guilders,
to be subscribed for in 5,000 shares, of 8,000 guilders
each. The details of the plan are not given, but the
subscriptions are to be paid in cash, or in existing
Government Securities, taken at a- rate below their
present value in the market. The 10 millions wanted
for Java, are included in the proposed LOan.

An accurate idea of the immense value of. Property
annually disposed of by Auction in this Country, may
be formed by the inspection of an Account printed by
order of the House of Commons. It appears by this
Return, that the amount of sales by Auction, on which
duty was paid in Great Britain, on Estates, &c. at the
rate of 7d. in the pound, and on Furniture, &c. at ls.
per pound, was as follow, during the, undermentioned
periods
On Estates. On Furniture.
Year ending July 5, 1824 . . £4,322,379 £2,696,643
Do. July 5, 1825 . . 6,196,837 2,819,615

alf.year to sth Jan. 1826 . . 8,177,304 1,494,100
The immense increase of the amount of Sales of
Estates, &c. within the last year and a half, may, per-
haps, be traced to those causes which operated upon
every interest of the Country during a part of that
period, but we leave the question to be settled by abler
Political Economists than we profess to be.

The second part of Major MOODY's reports relating
to captured Negroes has been printed by order of the
House of Commons.

The report relates to the apprenticed Africans and
other Negroes condemned to the Crown in the Court
of Vice-Admiralty at Tortola, since the Act for the
Abolition of the Slave Trade.

In submitting this report to Earl BATHURST, Ma-
jor MOODY observes, that in proposing any measures
for meliorating the condition, and promoting the civi-
lization and happiness of apprenticed Africans (inha-
biting the torrid zone, in parts where population is
thinly settled, and where the means of subsistence
almost gratuitously obtained from the bounty of
Nature), they must be of a practical and not of a
theoretical nature ; that die expediency of such mea-
sures cannot be applied by reference to theories, how-
ever sound, which have been formed from observations
on men living in a different climate—in a different
state of civilization—and under other circumstances,
(physical as well as moral) very different from those
under which the liberated Africans actually are placed;
and that there he has deemed it necessary to point out
some of the facts and observations which have in-
fluenced his judgment in recommending the measures
which he has submitted, so that not only every error
which he has committed may be discovered, but also
the train of reasoning which led to it.
The Major's report appears to us to be a production
of considerable talent, and to be full of much interest-
ing matter. The general result, however, of the train
of reasoning which he enters into is, that the public
measures w have been adopted, in regard to the
liberated Africans, have altogether failed in their ob-
bect ; that no power of persuasion will induce the li-
erated Africans or Indians to labour steadily in the
sun in the lowlands of the torrid zone, in return for
any wages which their labour could qfford to the agri-
cufturatcapitalist at present, and that the power of
coercing their labour, by personal or other punishment,
must be vested in the chief superintendent.