The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-21 00:00:00

1), ess , pre pare.ory to ,era !Tort bite;
'nide to pet n down. He concluded by declaring
it to he his intention to give his vote most de-
cidedly against the present Bill, as well as against
the measure for punishing the offence of libel with
Ireuishmente
• . Mt. MARRYATT thought, that instead of its
f►elog►a eecommendatioe, it was a great objection
to (be Bill, that it punished the printer and pub-
lisher, while the most guilty party, the author,
was not touched by it. The printer was gene-
rally the innocent and unconscious instrument of
the author, and therefore to punish him was con-
trio y to common 'sense, and to the ordinaryesrace
tier (if that House. It was only in the last week
thata printer, on being brought before the
House, and giving up the author of an offensive
o.k, sees immediately liberated, while the au-
thor was incarcerated. He objected to this Bill
generally. He did • not deny that it container)
enotte good provisions. He approved of the pro,
posed seizure of libels wherever they could he
totted, and could wish this adopted as their own,
and ti.e rest- of their measure as sent from the
Lords, rejected altogether.
Mr. DENMAN said, that the House was now en-
. fel ing on a new branch of the inquiry set on foot
by the measures proposed by Ministers, and they
'Were now called upon to do that which went to
Change the whole law of England, so far as re-
garded the Press. If any thing could give addi-
tional importance to the discussion, it was the
°Pinions expressed by a Learned Serjeant, and
the Member for Somersetshire, in favour of the
bill. For if these moderate men, who held, as
it were, the balance between the two great parties
in that House decided for the measure, it appeared
to him that those who washed to defend the pupa..
lar rights misfit as well abdicate their functions
and leave the whole business to the If
they compared who, lied fallen from those respect-
able Gentlemen this flight, with _what had been
said on fernier occasions, it was mortifying to see
how public opinion was lowered and the rights
of th, people frittered away, their attentions
Leine eall,d to sliedows while the substance was
1"51. It was difikult to separate the two Bills
Pow in the House, but the importance of both
demanded that each should be attentively con-
sitier,gi, arid would therefore endeavour to con-
floe himself to that immediately before them.—
The House would see that the present Bill was
introduced to them on a perfectly new pliueiple,
that led directly to an imprint:attire. lie called
Art the House not to he misled by an idea that if
Passed, the Bill would have but little effete, for
thoutsh inefficient for the purposes for. which it
.16T to be passed, it would place respectable
feoeksellsrs in a situation which they never
cantentplated when they first entered into
business. That the . bookseller should find se-
curity for 3001. was not in itself very injo-
' ?louse but the principle was sufficiently formid-
"le, and. bad a tendency to lead to still more
arbitrary measures. One clause in the Bill was in
high degree alarming;---that which gave a Jus-
tice of Peace on tile oath of one pet son, the right
of doing a violent act, which was in fact to be
.imposed on him as a duty. He contended, that
the odious duties about to he thrown on Magis-
trates, would do away that, in praise of which so
stench had been said—our unpaid Magistracy ;
tor when the present panic had passed away, bi—
rtependent Gentlemen would not submit to such
fatigue, and persons must be called to supply
their place who would expect salaries. He hoped
Cntlemen who had supported GovernMeurefsel-
-11";-; something must be done, woidd pause, when
they reflected what had already been clone be-
fore they went farther. A Bill bad been passed
'hich went ahncet to annihilate all public meet-
ings......and one tvliich authorized the seizure of
171113 by day and night in seventeen counties of
4england,. and that too its words so large and in-
definite, that a:;y house [night he entered within
these districts on the oath of one informer. That
14)0 had been done which he thought an improve-
ett)ent in the law, but which gave Government the
Power of bringing an offender to trial without
'lO,l. Why had the trial of Castile been de-
erred till October, 1819, but because such a Bill
11""s not in existence Having given Ministers
)melt powers, enough had been done to enable
them to penis)) offenders under the existing laws,
'Lich as yet no Juries had been found unwilling
allrninister. Because, Mr. Hone had been ac-
cl"itted by one Jury, who could fairly contend
Mr. Guide !mist be acquitted by another ?
""t it any doubt remained on this subject it had
slots' neee completely removed, and the verdicts
ftf successive Juries had declared that blasphemy
ns au offence against the Jaw of the land,
7hich it was their duty to put down. No im-
ttustioris on this, as on former occesions, had
eto cast on the Court of King's Bench;. but,
e the contrary, on all hands it was coutessed
":dt the conduct of the Court on that occa-
iwn, had done much to exalt the jurisprudence
61 the country. If there were one circumstance
t"
411 others to which the sinking liberties of this
eottetry might look up with hope, it was to the
Osiris y of the administration of justice in our so-
t/Ictior Courts of Law, It was not the same with
tsPeet to the Magistrates. If ever there was a
iiPeriud in which the superior Court was exalted,
'd the Magistracy of the country degraded in
rev9hiic estimation, it was during the three wombs
thin which the conviction of Carlile, and the
roeeeditigs consequent on the Manchester Meet-
,el;ie took place. lie then noticed the proceedings
that day, and contended, that after the thanks
V
ell to the Magistrates for their conduct, it was
11:119Ckery to bid the suffereis appeal to Juries of
,L'ir country, after such a violation of the Con-
et:ution had taken place. He now desired to
14`)At if any Hon. Gentleman would point out
ereitiM, in the legal history of England, Any
ijeedent fur the security now required.—
4,irl ever any man hear that a person to
t: tried for an indefinite offence, which
hest hitt, to an indefinite fine, and to intlefi-
e imprisonment, should be called upon to"take
ePgrson to one' of the Government Offices, end
here' is my ftiend, Mr. So and bo,. who
s,' tie bound in such a sow mostey in case I
""id commit or such au offence." The
silt:
urealre contended, would not prove benefi-
let might succeed in alienating the minds of
Pt"l'ley but its (Aber ropeets it would tail us

completely as any th:ng that could be decided
the most absurd dabbler in legislation. lie ap-
proved of the principle of imposing a stamp upon
cheap political publications, but he cautioned
Gentlemen against going further, lest they should
find, when trio late, that they, had dune what
they could wish recalled. He denied that the
laws were insufficient to repress blasphemy
and sedition. Not ling would more effectually
check the evil than the present laws, unless in-
deed they went to the extreme length of holding
a dagger to the throat of every man suspected
of intending to write a libel. Nothing short
of this would do, for the pen would still be held,
arid the hand that held it could not be prevented
from moving, notwithstanding the Bill that it
was now proposed to pass. But the present laws
were fully competent to repress the evil. This
was seen in the case of Carlile. IVhere was he
? Did lie cmitique to publish ? Nn, In 1818
nothing was done against him ; in 1819 he was
prosecuted and cast, and now ill') Dorchester gaol ;
for sonic years at least he was prevented from
sending forth his lucubrations as formerly. In
France, measures like those now resorted to had
failed to put down the publications against which
they were directed. Supposing a person now to
be banished for a seditious libel, he might easily
establish himself on the opposite coast, and there,
where paper and printing were much cheaper,
could it be doubted that he would want the means
of publishing his sentiments and of sending them
into England, with all the merit of martyrdom
attached to them ? This he had no doubt could be
easily accomplished ; and therefore, under all the
circumstances or the case, though willing to place
cheap political publications on the same footing
as newspapers with respect to the stamp duty, he
felt it a duty he owed to his country to call upon
the House to pause before they did more.
Dicx.stssoN explaieed.
Mr. BANKEs, after observing that the measures
which had already received the sanction of Parlia-
ment wet e esseotially necessary for the preserva-
tion of the public tranquillity, added, that the
Bill before the House went to the correc,ion of
that which, in his opinion, was the main spring
of all the existing es il—namely, the abuse of the
Libeity of the Press. The Honourable Geode-
man then entered into an historical review of the
state of the press, and of the legal restrictions
upon it, doe a to a period subsequent to the Re-
volution, and maintained, that in no former age
did the licence of the press bear any resemblance
to that which existed at the present period ; and
that it had been repeatedly subjected to restraints
much more severe than those Dow contemplated.
What good could possibly proceed from publica-
tions such as iho,e by which the Country had
lately been infested ? He asked those Honourable
Gentlemen who opposed the Bill, whether they did
not conceive that the greatest mischief must re-
sult from the practice of reading such publications
to a multitude of persons congregated in a field,
in an alehouse, or elsewhere ? He would ask
any agriculturist in die }louse, whether he wished
to have die contexts of such publications itopai tell
to his labourers ? He would ask any manufac-
turer in the House, whether he wished to have
. the contents of such publications.impirted to his
workmen ? Could that be good for the whole
community which was not gOod for particalar
classes ? Could that be good which tended to de-
stroy the present comforts of all, and which led
to consequences the most de;lily to be lamented of
any that could befall the human race ? It was the
duty of Parliament--a pressing and imperative duty
—to lay the axe to the root oldie evil;•to suppress
the press—he meant the abuse of the press—
abuse which, if not suppressed, would ere long
overturn every establishment in the country. No
-institution, however wise or valuable; no Con-
stitution, however venerable or sacred, could
bear to be constantly brought into contempt,
and loaded with slander by every base and des-
perate scribbler, who, without compunction,
scattered abroad his virulent and destructive
poison. One great source of the evil—and in say-
ing so, he was aware that he differed from many
persons, for whose opinion lie entertained the
highest respect, and above all, from an Mo. and
Dear Friend near him—but to him it appeared
that one great source of the evil was the extent to
which the general education of the Lowe; classes
had been carried—(Hear, hear, hear !)—and
which certainly tended to the establishment of a
state of society not contemplated in former rimes.
To enlarge die understantliirg of die people—to
give them capacities for the reception of know-
ledge, was worse that) useless, unless especial care
was taken what kind of knowledge was commu-
nicated to them. Those who had a capacity for
good, had also a capacity for evil. The tniadhief of
erroneous knowledge was, that it set those men
by whom it was obtained above contronl ; and that
it made diem conceive themselves wiser than those
Rimini! them, either because they knew more
or believed lest. This was the mischief ; and it
behoved the Legislature to take great care what
issued from the press at a period when the peo-
ple at large were so capable of comprehending the
information—salutary or pernicious—that was im-
parted to them. The existing situation of things
in that respect bad never before been,known in
any age or country. To a new case slew reme-
dies must be applied. Parliament were adopting
the best measures that were suggested to their
minds. If he had any doubt on the subject, it
was whether those measures would be effectual—
whether they went far enough.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—He eoutessed that he was inclined to go
much further; for he altt ays considered that it
was much better to endeavour to prevent crime
than to punish it %%len committed.
Mr. ArtenCROMBY contended, that the argutnent
of the Right Honourable Gentleman, that the
Press was once under greater restrictions than at
present, and that therefore the people had no
claim to die privileges they enjoyed, Might as
well be applied to the Habeas Corpus Act, and
every other Act that guarded our liberties. How-
ever the Right Hon. Gentleman might regret the
progress of education, the friends of that great
measure might rest assured that it would never
be in his power to check its course. Since the
Right Honourable Gentleman could doubt whe-
ther these measures went far enough, he did not
know but it might be more than accident that
occurred on- a former night, when a Noble Lord

had told :list( that forsooth '' be did not mean to
take trout them Trial by Jury." He aihnitted in
the largest sense, that the Liberty of the Press
had been most scandalously abused—thet it had
been used as an engine to render every thing;
that was respectable the object of contempt, arid
to Insubordination, that might in tire end lead
to confusion, and posSibly to despotism But
admitting this, (lid he necessarily come to the
couclusioo that new laws were necessary ? He
most first ask if it had been proved that 'the ex-
istiog laws were insufficient ? -Would it be stated
that Juries acre so intimidated as not to be able
to perform their duty ? If this were asserted he
would not believe it. Would it then be said that
they were so imbued with the principles of the
seditious, that they woulsl trot discharge their dory?
He was convinced that was not the case ; and he
trusted that the House would not act on mere
assertions, but on experience. Let it be put to
the test, whether. a Jury would acquit anyof those
who had really libelled the King, the Thtotie, and
the Constitution ; and if they did, then he might
he brought to aekoowledge the necessity of a mea-
sure like the present. As the ease now stood, the
Act proposed did not go to remedy a defect in the
laws, but one in the administration of those laws.
If the House legislated without following expe-
rience as its guide, it would abandon its duty, and
act in a criminal manner. It was said, and lie
did not deny it, that seditious publications had
lately increased. The reason lay in the single
word impunity.—(Hear, hear !)—lf the Law
Officers of the Crown had acted as they ought to
have dope, and the laws had been properly car-
ried into execntion, he was convinced there wonld
have been no necessity fur measures like those
now proposed.
Mr. liststseT did not think those measures,
alarming as they were, so alarming as the speech
of the Hon. Member for Corte Castle. In his
search after precedents, he might have gone to
the times of the Plantagenets. lie might have
.quoted the Act of Henry VIII., which gave that
Monarch power to enact laws without the aid of
Parliament. In all the Hon. Member had said,
he thought Ire Mot seer) such a principle lurking,
in his mind. And what had been his doctrine
with respect to education? Had that Honour-
able Member taken the trouble to enquire,
even in the neighbourhood of Corte Castle, be
would have found that nothing contributed so
powerfully to the morality and religion of the
poor, as education. He well knew. the insi-
dious ways in which it had lately been at-
tempted to check the education of the poor.—
But be would 'not have believed it possible,
it it had not been his misfortune to hear it, that
an Hon. Member should rise in his plase, and say,,
that the edrication of the poor was at: evil, arid
that the remedy which he wiB;od to apply was
ignorance. lie lamented tr;at he should have met
with a Member of that House who war ld tike
away such a blessing, whikt the hint, jibe was
allowed to name lnitn, with that feeling which dis-
played the excellence of his heart, always expres-
sed a wish " to see the day when every poor
child in his dominions would be able to read his
Bible."—(Hear !)—Yet the Honourable Mem-
ber wished them all to he shut out from that great
inlet of knowledge and happiness !--(Hear !)
With respect to the Bill before the House, he
believed that there were shops in most of the large
towns where seditious publication' were sold,
but not to the extent which was represented, He
had seen a statement of the sale rat Cathie's pub-
lication in the counties of Lancaster and York.
The first week its circulation amounted only to a
few hundred copies. After notice of the prose-
cution had been given, curiosity led to the pur-
chase of greater numbers, and in a fortnight they
amounted to 1500; but since he bad given up po-
litics for blasphemy the sale had considerably di-
minished. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
opposite (the Attorney-General) had thought pro-
per to say on a former night, that it was not in
the power of his Majesty's Law Officers to carry
the laws into effect. He lied declared that the
acquittal of Mr. Hone had encouraged the writing
of libels. Now this assertion was most marmot&
ed, for there were feWer libels in 1818 than in
1817. They decreased not only in number but in
quality, and no prosecution was instituted. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had 'also said that
Mr. Hone's acquittal had satisfied the Govern-
ment that no protection was ro be expected from
the verdicts of Juries. But could any impartial
man be •so easily satisfied ? Mr. Hone had been
acquitteo, because he had shewn that the intent
of blasphemy did riot apply in his case, and be-
cause he had proved that the highest persons in
the State had used the principle of parody to ope-
rate upon political topics. The persons who had
given him their -countenance had been blamed ;
but it the Hon. arid Learned Gentleman meant to
insinuate that those persons had any intention of
countenancing blasphemy 1411(1 sedition, when they
gave Hone their support, he was not justified its
so doings_ They had countenanced Mr. Hone,
because they thought he was the victim of an
hypocritical prosecution, that but ill-disguis-
ed the design of persecution.—(Hear, hear.
• hear !) —But those persons had, at least,
what the friends of the HOP. and Learned Gen-
tleman could not boast, consistency of political
character. As to the clause imposing a stamp-
duty on cheap publications, he objected to it be-
cause it would repress the sale of good and use-
ful works. It was well known that our best his-
tories were circulated in cheap numbers through
Out the couutry, because taxation had deprived the
people of the means of purchasing Ilia whole
at once. This branch of trade and information
would be immediately closed. He contended, that
the regulation would not he effective to its owl,
object, for that Cobbett's Register bad sold
three times more when the price was one shil-
ling than since it heel been at two•petice. Ho--
stamped cheap publications could not easily
find their way to the country ; but if the stamp
was once affixed upon them, they could go free
by the post. As to the last clause, be maintained
that it was quite novel in Legislation to impose
a penalty 015 an individual before lie was con-
victed of any offence. The amount of the re-
cognizance wool,: be 6001., for, though fixed at
3001. for the printer, there W 69 no doubt of his
being obliged to give equal security to the pen son
who wuuld be his own s. entity. TWO was putting

down all cheap publications, and leaving the press
open only to the rich. It was abolishing the
right of every Englist:man to write and publish
whatever he liked, subject to the responsibility of
his own writings. When Honourable Geo(lemen
talked of the principles of the Constitution and
gave'their votes against them, be could net help
telling them that their theory was betf er than
their practice, and that they would rue the day
when they had enable:! Ministers to make fortune
a test by which Englishmen were to be allowed
or deprived of the right of publishing their opi-
nions.
Mr. Wtemor considered the dangers of the
country sufficient to warrant a temporary snspee-
sion of what bad beets hitherto regarded as form-
ing part of the Liberty of the Press. He thought
it was the duty of the House to interfere and to
protect the morality of the Poore Seditious
writers accused the HottSe of indiffereuce towards
the Poor,.and of using bribes and corruption.—
But what did they do themselves ? Did they not
bt:ibe the Poor, not indeed with gold, but with
the promise of a video age, which could never be
realized ? And could the continuance of such de-
lusions be permitted He was convinced that the
Liberty of the Press would be more secured to
our posterity by the proposed restrictions, that, if
it were left open to the abuse of the seditious.
Mr. Aldermen WAITHMAN stated, that the ap-
prehensions which he entertained of the measeres
proposed, hail not been removed by any or the
arguments used on the other side of the Hoese.
They bed confirmed him, on the contrary, in rhe.
opinion, that those measures were but plot of 4
SySteni, and that if they were adopted, they would
soon be followed op by others. He then deteed-
ed the conduct of Mr. Hone, on the same grounds
as Mr. Bennet. He objected to all the Bills be-
fore the House, as he thought the existing laws
sufficiently.effectiee. He also maintaioed that it
was doubtful whether °tie of the most atrocious
publications tvas not secretly Supported by his
Majesty's Government.
Dr. PHELLIMoRK telt himself impelled to give
his vote for the two measures before the 1-lonse,
by a strong sense of their necessity. lie con-
ceived, that instead of impairing the rights of the
subject and the Liberty or the Peels, they would
serve to sustain them, end transmit them midi-
mitiished to posterity. No Constitution could re-
sist attacks carried on like the present 1'11(1,r its
own principles. In civilised society, res7raints
and liberties must necessarily vary with circum-
stances. Ile then coutended, that the (,lance in-
flicting the pueishutent of bauishment teas nu in-
novation in the E Wish laws, end proved that
by the 39i!) of Eliz fbeth it was enacted, that
,-eotes as were dangerous to inferior peo-
!•le sitotdd Itc t).lHo•iii!..'—(l-lear, hear, herr!)—
I's oat the best .es,:Hilaiion which he could take
of the measures, thee reee:eteci to him calculated
to rescue invaluable rigiii6 fc.;“ii those who fei:ih-
ed to invade them ;,and to preserve titet,e fisti-
tutions which had made this country so gsee: end
so glorious.
'Mr. T. WneeToN wished to put the following
question to the Noble Lord oproFite (Lord C4S.
tiereagb).—lf booksellers whose house consisted
of six partners, were to he convicted for the se-
cond time of tiering published a sedit boos libel,
would the whole firm be sent into banishment,
or only the senior or junior partner ?—(Laughter.)
The Howse then divided—
Fur going into the COM
Against it 7G
-146
On our return we round the House in the Com--
mittee. •
On the cleose requiring Recognieances,
ilr. MeRRYAT said, that lie considered it very
hard ..es a man of small property that he should
be required, not only to give security of 3001.
for himself, but to procure another to the same
amount. Publishers generally begat' with small
means, and if this clause were passed without
any modifications, it would consign them to
positive ruin. Who would become security for
them, when the nature of a libel was not even de-
fined ? The effect would he to throw the whole
trade into the hands of a few opulent- individuals.
This was, t hereto, e, in his Opinion, a most op-
pressive and unjust attack on the sights -of the
subject. This measure presumed a man to be guilty
before be committed any crime, The result would
be that no persons of stnall capitals could
.en-
gage in printing, and the whole trade would be
thrown into the hands of large monopolists, and
at such an expense ono as would injure them in
the competition with foreign printers. It would
also he prejudicial to literature, since authors
could not,' under these circumstances, expect the
same fair remuneration for copy-rights as they
worth! otherwise obtain. On these grounds he
moved as an •Ausendment, that the words in the
Clanse, '' together with two or three securities,"
be expunged.

Mr.' WA ITH MAN spoke on the
.same side, and
• argued that those seem iiies would be impo.sible
to be got. It they had existed before, they would
haVe prevented such tt man as Dr. Franklin from
coining forward into public life.
Mr. IV. SMITH objectcUto -the wording or the
Clause, as it Went to prohibit all publications
which gave coinmercial, scientific, and philoiol.hic
information.
.Ir. kVHARTON supported- the clause, and ob-
served, that t 13:11 e r more misunderstood
than the present. It was argued as it it was aim-
ed at all printers, whereas it. was only applicable
to publications which affected the Church or State.
As for its hindering persons of no means and of
indifferent character from engaging in this trade,
he conceived this to be its.great recommendation.
It was seen that the Party. .Newspapers conducted
themselves with decency, and did not injure the
morals of the country; but those publications
which emanated.from persons of no reaponsibility
were calculated only to outrage decorum, and
undermine every good feeling in the country.
Mt. W. SMITH instanced a paper lately circu-
lated with an account of the distresses in the
Scilly Islands, in order to excite charity towards
those sufferings, as a sp.:cies of publication which
would have been proscribed by this Bill.
The ATTotsNt3y.GENEHAL replied, . that the
clause referred to publications for sale that were
delivered gratis, The Bill generally applied
only to what were Newspapers under the for.
aler Act, It had. been 61-46, that it .introduc-