The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, MARCH 21, 1845.

and which has not improperly been termed " death-
sereem," all power of volition ceases, and complete insen-
sibility supervenes.
" The absence of the peculiar odour of prussic acid
militates, however, most strongly against the supposition
of poisoning by this deleterious substance. Mr. Champ-
neys, as well as Mr. Norblad, seem, indeed, to have felt
this difficulty—at least they endeavoured, before the
Coroner, to account for the absence of the charactcriAic
odour of prussic acid.
" The brain is • found in a perfectly healthy state ;
the lungs are found perfectly healthy (this statement,
however, Mr. Champneys modified at the trial, inas-
much as he asserted, in cross examination, that he found
them slightly congested), with the exception of come
old adhesions of long standing ; the stomach and the
abdominal viscera likewise are found to be perfectly
healthy, though rather fat : the internal surface of the
coat of the stomach is found to be covered with more
mucous than is usually the case, and its contents are found
to manifest an acid reaction. There is nothing vvhatso •
ever to indicate the action of a poison. The acid reac-
tion of the cornents of the stomach is owing, as is now
genet ally admitted by chemists and ph3 siologists, to the
presence of free hydroclorie acid in the gastric juice.
" Not one single pathological alteration is found in
the brain, nor in tie heart and lungs, stomach and ab-
dominal viscera of deceased; however Messieurs Champ-
neys, orblad, and Pickering seem to have settled to
their own perfect satisfaction, that some poison or other
must have been administered, the notion that deceased
might have died from eatetral causes seems to have been
scouted altogether and unanimously by these gentlemen.
This point being thus satisfaeterity settled, there re-
mained simply one slight difficulty, viz., to find out what
kind of poison had been administered to deceased.
" All they know is, that death has ensued suddenly,
and that the contents of the stomach are acid. It is
upon these very slight indices that Mr. Norblad comes at
once to the conclusion that oxalic acid has been the
cause of death ! in which opinion his colleaeues see m to
have joined at once, since it results from Mr. Cooper's
evidence, that the contents of the stomach were tested in
the first instance for oxalic acid. Now, it is very true
that oxalic acid causes death, in some instances, almost
as rapidly as prussic acid, especially when the acid is
dissolved in a copious amount of water, so as to facilitate
and accelerate its absorption ; it is true, moreover, that in
such instances no remarkable alteration is observed in the
brain nor in the abdominal viscera ; but the lungs exhibit
a number of spots of a lively red tint, and the blood is
either black in the two vasculary systems, or the venous
blood is black, and the arterial blood of a vermilion tint.
Nothing of the kind was observed in Sarah Hart's case,
and yet Mr. Norblad actually stated at the trial (in
cross-examination) that he firmly believed deceased died
from the effects of oxalic acid, until he saw the special
test for this acid fail detecting it."
They did not examine the bronchial tubes—they
did not examine the spinal chord, and they say no-
thing as to the appearance of the blood.
" We are therefore justified in assuming that the ap-
pearance of the blood was perfectly natural, and this
natural appearance of the blood militates altogether
against the supposition that death was caused in this in-
stance by prussic acid."
When Mr. Champneys was first called in he at once
determines that his patient has been poisoned.
" Having made up his mind upon this point, he pro-
ceeds, about three minutes after the death of deceased, to
open one of her veins—not as he very naively stated be-
fore the coroner, with a view to bring her back to life,
but in order to ascertain the cause of her death from the
state and appearance of her blood. How this object
could be accomplished, I must confess I am altogether at
a loss to divine. At the trial, indeed, Mr. Champneys,
who has then had two months' leisure to find out the
absurdity of such a proceeding, declares that he bled de-
ceased simply in order to satisfy the parties present that
nothing was left undone ; but this after-statement has
surely not the power to annul the deliberate statement
made before the coroner. This part of the evidence is
very wavering and contradictory in every respect. Mrs.
Ashley, for instance, stated before the coroner, that de-
ceased died immediately after Mr. Champneys' attempt
at bleeding her, whilst at the trial she asserts most po-
sitively that deceased was dead when Mr. Champneys
bled her. If deceased was really still alive, bleeding,
under the peculiar circumstances of the case, was highly
improper, and could only tend to accelerate death.
" The fact, perhaps, is, that Mr. Champneys fancied at
the time, he had to deal with a case of cerebral conges-
tion, or of apoplexy, and that bleeding would restore
animation."

With regard to the cause of death, Mr. Strauss
says
It is my most conscientious conviction that Sarah
Hart died from natural causes. It is of course quite
out of my power to point out the precise cause of her
sudden death. I neither witnessed the symptoms exhi-
bited by her during the few minutes immediately pre-
ceding the extinction of life, nor have I seen her body
after death. It would perhaps have been easy to come
to a correct conclusion on this point, had the post mor-
tem examination been made by men of sterling science;
however, as it is, the cause of death will probably re-
main shrouded in mystery.
" My conviction that prussic acid had nothing what-
ever to do with the poor woman's death, is based chiefly
and principally upon the absence of some of those symp-
toms which my own experience (limited as it is) has
taught me to expect invariably in cases of poisoning by
this acid; and moreover upon the total and complete
absence of any of the pathological alterations which I
should invariably expect, at least in all cases where the
acid has not destroyed life instantaneously, but after the
lapse of a few minutes or so. In all cases of poisoning
by prussic acid, without exception, the venous system is
found gorged with very fluid blood of a dark violet or
black tint ; the liver is gorged with blood of black
colour. The brain is in most cases overgorged with
blood, which in many instances is found to have extra-
vasated ; the lungs are almost invariably gorged with
blood of a deep violet or black colour ; the oesophagus,
stomach, and intestines are generally in a state of greater
or le,ser inflammation, &c. &c. &c. Of all these indica-
tions of the action of prussic acid, we have none in this
instance. How is it possible that any professional man,
possessed of the slightest knowledge of his art, can, in
the face of these facts, come to the conclusion that the
death of Sarah Hart is chargeable upon prussic acid ;
simply because some prussic acid was obtained by dis-
tilling the contents of her stomach ?"
He thus concludes :

" I have now arrived at the conclusion of my remarks.
I beg it to be distinctly understood that I do not know
Mr. Tawell, and that I am induced to step forward in
his defence, solely because I believe him innocent of the
crime imputed to him.
" In conclusion, I beg to propose two simple ques-
tions :

" 1. If the facts and allegations averred by me are
true (and I challenge• the strictest inquiry into their
correctness)—will any impartial and unprejudiced man
be bold enough to assert that Mr. Tawell had a fair
trial, and that he has been condemned on indubitably
conclusive evidence ? _

" 2. If I have succeeded in shaking the medical evi-
dence adduced against Mr. Tawell, and to render the
principal fact in the case doubtful, would his execution,
under the present circumstances, not positively amount
to legal murder?"
After reading this pamphlet we cannot avoid
coming to the conclusion that the result of this trial
has been most unsatisfactory, and that, under the
circumstances of the case, it is the duty of Sir James
Graham to submit the whole of the evidence to a
Board composed of the most eminent toxicologists,
jurists, and chemists in the kingdom, and to respite
Tawell until such time as that Board shall have made
its report. This case forcibly illustrates the necessity
of the appointment of a Council of Health, as pro-
posed in the Medical Bill, with as little delay as
possible.

DISPATCHES AND LETTERS OF VICE-
ADMIRAL LORD
_VISCOUNT NELSON;

with ;Vacs by Sir .Nicholas Harris A'icolas,'G.C.M.G,
The present volume contains the Nelson dispatches
and letters from the beginning of 1795 to the end of
1797, and include an account of Admiral Hotham's
actions with the French fleet; of Nelson's proceed-
ings In the Mediterranean in 1796 ; of the battle of
St. Vincent, and or the attack on Teneriffe, in which
he lost his arm. These documents are many of them
of a most interesting character, and as materials for
the future historian they are invaluable. It is im-
possible to read this volume without admiring the de-
lightful style of Nelson's writings. Clear, distinct,
and terse, his letters and dispatches are models of
correspondence; and whether he be making a report
to his superior officer, or issuing his directions to
those under his own command, his meaning cannot
for one instant be misunderstood.

I MPERIAL PARLIAMEN T.
HOUSE OF COMMONS. Match 20.

The SPEAKErt took the Chair at Four o'clock.

Mr. SPOONER presented a petition praying for
leave to bring in a Bill to make a railroad between
Wells and Durham.

Mr. W 4 SE presented a petition in favour of the
Waterford and Limerick Railway Bill.
Colonel T. WOOD presented a petition from
Staines praying for a better observance of the
Sabbath. _ _

Mr. YSE presented a petition from the province
of Munster, agreed to at a public meeting held in
Cork, praying for the establishment of provincial col-
leges in Ireland, and the extension of education.
MANCHESTER AND SHEFFIELD RAIL-
WAY.

Mr. G. S. WORTLEY brought b a Bill for con-
structing the Manchester and Sheffield Railway,
which was read a first time.

lIUNGERFORD BRIDGE,

A Bill was also brought in for constructing the
Hungerford- bridge terminus, which was read a fiat
time.

LONDON AND WESTMINSTER CEME-
TERY.

Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from the
London and Westminister Cemetery Company, pray-
ing to be heard before the health of Towris Com-
mittee.

BOARD OF TRADE RAILWAY REPORT.

Sir G. CLERK brought up the report of the
Board of Trade on the London and York Railway,
the South Wales Railway, and the projected Rail-
ways in the South of Ireland.
Sir G. GREY and Mr. T. EGERTON presented
several petitions against the sale of intoxicating liquors
on the Sabbath.
MIDLAND COUNTIES RAILWAY.

Mr. H. HINDE brought in a Bill for constructing
the branches projected by the Midland Counties
Railway Company.
ABERDEEN RAILWAY.

Sir G. GREY brougl.t in a Bill for constructing
this line, which was read a first time.

EAST DEREHAM AND PRESTON AND
WYRE RAIL WAYS.

Petitions were presented from the promoters of
these projects, praying for leave to bring in Bills.
They were referred to the Select Committee on Pri-
Yate Bills.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

Sir R. PEEL, in pursuance of a notice he had
given on a former day, moved that the House at its
rising do adjourn till Monday, the 31st day of March.
—Agreed to.
OPENING LETTERS.

Mr. DUNCOMBE gave notice that he should, on
the Bth of April, move for leave to bring in a Bill fur
securing letters from being opened at the Post-office.
COLLEGIATE EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

Mr. WYSE gave notice that he should, on the
Bth of April, inquire the amount of the sums to be
granted for the purpose of establishing collegiate in-
stitutions in Ireland, the extent of those institutions,
and the places where they were to be located.
MAYNOOTH.

Sir R. PEEL gave notice that he should, on
Thursday, the 3d of April, move that the House take
into con.tidel ation a grant to the College of May-
nooth.

ability had a few years longer turned their attention '
to the means of improving them. He would not
speak of locomotive or atmospheric railways,
for it was his impression that these, if
not superseded, would be rendered much more
useful than they now were, when the House con-
sidered the great advantages which were possessed by
the manufacturing interest in holding more frequent
and rapid communisation with their agents in distant ;
places, and also with the persons who purchased their
goods. Indeed, from the facility and cheapness for
this communication, he could only compare
the effects of railways upon commerce with the
improvements wrought in manufactures by machinery.
No class, perhaps, would benefit more than the farmers
by lowering the cost of railway travelling. They
would be able to go through the country, and in that
way see the improvements which were being made in
agriculture. The farmers of the west of England, R here
agriculture was not so well understood as in Norfolk,
Lincoln, and the north of England, might visit those
counties, and observe the various means of improve-
ment which were applied to the cultivation of
the land. Unless the fares were lowered, the
labourers could not possibly avail themselves of
the benefits of railway travelling, bu • in a short
time he hoped to see the fares lowered to a half-
penny per passenger per mile.—(Hear, hear.) In
that case they would be enabled to leave those parts
of the country where wages were low, and go to those
places where labour was permanently high, or
where there was a temporary demand for it.
Fuel and provisions would be cheapened considerably
where they were now dear—as an instance of which
he would mention, that fish, which before the
railroad system was very scarce and dear in
Manchester, was now plentiful and abundant.
If agriculture were to be improved, it must be by a
mixture of the soils. There was scarcely a railroad
in existence which had not almost entirely superseded
the coaches and wagons. The canals, too,
were almost deprived of their whole traffic,
Another reason in support of his argument was, that
the expense of constructing a railway was much less
now than formerly ; for instance, an old line of rail-
way which cost, say 60,000/., might now be constructed
for 10,000/. or 12,0001. Then again, the expense
of working the lines was much less now than
what it was some years ago, and the expense of main-
taining what was called the permanent way was now
almost reduced to a certainty. There were parties to
be found who would undertake contracts to keep the
lines in repair at a specified sum for a num-
ber of years, and he could, therefore, see
no objection to his motion on the subject,
for every day brought reductions in this respect.
Railroads were the safest sort of speculation, and their
capabilities to accommodate the public had not yet
been fairly tested. The whole question must come
before them at a future time. With regard to rail-
roads, their construction and management had now
become a great national question. They had scientific
power, and the command of iron, more than any
other nation, and ought to construct railroads more
cheaply than any other country. Yet, instead of
having the cheapest and best railways, they were
likely, unless something more effectual was dcne, to
have the dearest line than any.—(lrear, hear.) Taking
population and wealth together, this country was the
most densely peopled in the world. France had
taken advantage of their experience and their
mistakes ; and there were many things in which
they might copy from the French.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member then stated the comparative rates
of charges on the Orleans, Belgian, and English
lines, and showed how much cheaper the former were
than the latter • but the exact figures were uttered in
so low a tone of voice that they could not be heard in
the gallery. He was understood to say that if the
measures he suggested should be supplied, the great
benefits of which he had been speaking would be
sure to follow, and they were benefits to which the
public were entitled.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to
tolls he had heard a good deal ; but if the railway
companies were to be made toll collectors, the tolls
could not be collected. Some years ago an Hon.
Member proposed that toll boards should be
put up, with the rates of tolls upon them ; that
was done, but then the rate of travelling pre-
vented passengers from ever reading them.
He had been informed that on the Grand Junction
line there had been an increase in the third-class pas-
sengers of 308 per cent. while the revenue from third-
class passengers had increased only 70 per cent. There
had also been an increase in the second-class passengers,
so that the increase in the third class seemed to have
been at the expense of the first class. The attention
of Parliament should be directed to this subject. It
would be manifestly cheaper for the companies to
attach third-class carriages to the fast trains, as they
would thereby carry third-class passengers without
any additional power. They should certainly give
the lower classes the full benefit of the penny a mile
system. It was a great hardship upon them to be
kept 19 hours upon the road when they could be con-
veyed in less time. It certainly seemed singular
that the companies should choose to put
themselves to additional expense, by put-
ting on slow trains, solely for the purpose of
inconveniencing their passengers. The Government
ought to be permitted to give notice of revision or
purchase before the lapse of twenty-one years.
.there was no knowing what might occur in that
period. It was holding out a vast temptation to job-
bery.—(Loud cheers.) In fact, the present sys-
tem held out a premium to bad manage-
ment, instead of an encouragement to good.
He then came to the question of amalgamation. It
was quite evident that they could not prevent amal-
gamation. He did not know that they ought to pre-
vent it ; but this was an additional reason why they
should be careful in their legislation on this subject.
He denied that the trunk lines were sufficiently
extensive—in fact there were no trunk lines. They
had no trunk lines to the Eastern Counties,
nor any to Dover. There was no trunk line to
Exeter. The Great Western was a trunk line,
to Bristol, but it could not be considered as a trunk
line to Exeter. They had no trunk line to Man-
chester, or, in fact, to any place that
might be called a great market. Whether
they got threepence, twopence, or a penny,
he thought that the remuneration might well be
ascertained by the Committee who sat to investigate
the claims of any particular company, and might be
introduced into the special Act. The chances
were, that one-half of the present prices would
be a sufficient remuneration. An impression had
gone abroad, because 10 per cent. was generally
realised on the most prosperous railways, that that
per centage ought to be obtained from investments in
railway schemes. Where the prospects of returns
was uncertain, perhaps 10 per cent. was not an
unreasonable amount of profit to anticipate.
But it should be recollected that railways in England
were not now an experiment. They had become a
system. He thought that 7 per cent. was a reason-
able return, and indeed from the continental
railways 6 per cent. was considered a suf-
ficient remuneration. A. great deal of Eng-
lish capital had gone to France for the for-
mation of railways, and it was evident, from
this outlay of capital abroad, that the anticipation of
something like ten per cent. from English railways
was almost universal. Now he thought that six per
cent. from the old lines was quite up to the
mark for profit. On a new line it might not be
sufficient, but the old lines offered a security almost
equal to that of Government investments. By his
plan he would secure to the public the benefit
of all future improvements. At present it did not
matter whether the line cost 10,0001., or 20,0001., or
50,0001. per mile, the company always began charg-
ing the same fares,' whereas the remunerating
price depended on the cost. In every
other instance where improvements took place—
in iron-works, or in cotton-mills—the public always
got the benefit. Why should not the same take place
with regard to railroads. If railroad companies
knew their own true interests they would perceive
that the only way of securing a monopoly to them-
selves would be to reduce the fares as low as possible;
thus making it not worth the while for others to com-
pete with them. That was the true commercial prin-
ciple, and he was sure they might reduce the cost,
and yet get ten per cent. With regard to the Board
of Trade and their proceedings, that was a subject
which would be fully considered on a future occasion ;
but he might observe, in passing, that they seemed to
have an especial fear of insolvency, and they instanced
the case of the Eastern Counties and the Kent lines.
But why should they carry on lines which they had
reason to believe would not be profitable? They seemed
to think that new lines offered less security to the pub-
lic than old lines; but he would observe that there
might be insolvency also in the case of the old lines.
If there was any fear of that kind, let them increase the
guarantee, and that would be sufficient. He believed
that, as the railway system progressed, there would
be a demand for direct traffic.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not know why persons should be bound to go fifty
miles out of their way, as they were under the pre-
sent system. If he were a director or an influential
person connected with railways, le should advise the
company not to look to their immediate profit so
much as to their permanent interest, and by that
means to endeavour to secure their interests. He
thought he had said enough in illustration of the
present s 3 stern. lie called upon Hon. Members to
bear in mind that the railroad system had superseded
nearly all other means of conveyance ; whilst upon
that system itself they had placed scarcely any control.
Some Hon. Members had entered into compacts
against certain monopolies, without at the same time
perceiving that they were creating new ones, in sanc-
tioning the present system of railway legislation.
There could be no doubt that by and by the railway
companies of the kingdom would unite themselves to
serve their own purposes. They bad a common in-
terest amongst them, and ere long they would come
to an understanding in the same way as water and gas
companies had done in large towns. By this under-
standing they would secure to themselves a great and

extensive monopoly, and it, therefore, became im-
portant that Parliament should take some immediate
and decisive steps to avert this coining evil. lie con-
eluded by moving the following resolutions :--
1. That it is the duty of Parliament, in giving its
sanction to the establishment of new railways, to render
them the means of atlbrding to the public the best
and safest communication, and the greatest possible
amount of accommodation, at the lowe::,t possible rates.
2. That the clauses heretofore introduced into Railway
Bills to limit the amount of tolls to be demanded for
the use of the railway, having proved practically in-
operative, it is exkedient to make more effectual pro-
vision against the undue enhancement of the cost of
travellinc, and transportation in every future Railway
Bill, by fixing the highest rates which the Railway
Company shall be allowed to charge for the conveyance
of passengers and goods.
3. That for this purpose every Committee on a Rail-
way Bill, introduced in the present or any future session
of Parliament, shall report a table of fees and charges,
the lowest which they shall judge to be consistent, under
the circumstances of each case, with a fair and reason-
able return for the capital to be invested.
4. And that every Committee to which two or more
competing projects for new railways may be referred,
shall require the promoters of each to put in statements
as to the rates of charge for the conveyance of passen-
gers and goods to which they are content to be limited,
and the amount of accommodation which they will bind
themselves to provide for the public at those rates ; and
that, in determining on the comparative merits of coin-
peting schemes, regard shall be had to the extent and
nature of the advantages which can be thus reserved to
the public from each.
Mr. WARI3URTON seconded the motion. At
first he had been inclined to sanctien all the contem-
plated railways, believing them to be for the public
interest, and that they would lead to fair and equita-
ble competition. But since he had read the railway
reports which had come from the Board of Trade, he
could not conceal from himself that they must give
great dissatisfaction to all the established railway com-
panies. Indeed it was a matter of general conversa-
tion and dissatisfaction amongst those railway com-
panies, that these reports were founded upon Conser-
vative principles. That was the expression used, lie
believed, by the managers, directors, and proprietors
of old established railways, when they happened to
speak of those reports. The Board of Trade stepped
in and decided on the question, whether those capi-
talists who were going to lay out their money were
doing it profitably to themselves ? Did they act on
this principle with respect to any other investment of
capital ? Had they done so in case of turnpike roads ?
There was a turnpike road on both sides of the river
Avon, quite parallel to each other. But he had never
heard that any objection had been made to gentlemen
who were disposed to invest their money in shares in
these roads, or that they were impeded from doing so
because it woull be an unprofitable investment
of their capital. It appeared to be the de-
termination of the Board of Trade to throw
the extension of railway communication as much as
possible into the hands of the existing railroad
companies. It seemed as if a partial monopoly was
likely to be created, not only by the reports of the
Board of Trade, but by the tendencies of these com-
panies running lines through contiguous districts to
amalgamate, either by the purchase of the interests of
one company by the other, or by some individual
taking a lease of the line. It was notorious that the
line between Newcastle and Bristol was either leased
or about to be leased to the same individual. It was
necessary that Parliament should interpose some
check to this. Why not adopt the same system as
that of foreign railways, and establish a maximum of
rates beyond which a company could not go. On
turnpike-roads they fixed a maximum of tols, and
more than that, the Turnpike-roads Act required re-
newal after a certain term of years ; but the public
had no such protection in the case of railway companies.
Extend the time of those leases even so far as ninety-
nine years if they would ; but if they did not inter-
pose some limit, the lines would fall into a limited
number of hands ; and it was a matter of apprehen-
sion with him that if this should happen the result
would be that the Government would eventually get
them, and if so, then they would be dealt with, not as
a public convenience but as a means of revenue, and
then they would be placed in the position of the Post-
office. He begged to apologise for delaying the
House so long, and to second the motion.
The SPEAKER then put the question, when—
Lord GRAN VILLE SOMERSET rose and said
it was not his intention to allude to all the topics
introduced into his motion by the Hon. Member op-
posite. The Hon. Member had introduced a vast
variety of topics, very few of which had any connexion
whatever with the subject itself. But he (Lord
Granville Somerset) would say he was not pre-
pared to deny that error had been fallen
into in laying down the scale of charges.
It wets notorious that when Parliament fixed a maxi-
mum of toll, they imagined that they were protect-
ing the country against any overcharge on the part
of the company, and not lending themselves, as had
proved to be the case to an illusory management.—
(Cheers.) He would not deny that in some instances
the result of the present system had been, to enable
railroad companies to impose higher charges in the
carrying of goods and passengers than was fair or
just.—(Hear, hear.) But he could not help suspect-
ing that hereafter these charges would be regulated
by the same principles as those which regulated the
charges of other public bodies which undertook to
afford accommodation of any sort to the public. It
did not exactly follow that railroads running to the
same terminus were the only competing lines. A
great number of passengers looked more to
cheapness than to time, and a great number would
go round a considerable distance to save money.
Other lines therefore would exert a great influence in
regulating the charges for passengers, although per •
haps they might not run to the same terminus. Let
them take the case of Worcester. There was a direct
competition for railroad conveyance between London
and Worcester, between two companies which were
directly opposed to each other—the London and Bir-
mingham and the Great IVestern. The charges for
the conveyance of passengers to Worcester would be
regulated by the competition between these two com-
panies,. The proposition of the Hon. Gentleman did
not contain any great advantage over the present
system. At the present moment all the matters to
which he had alluded were made subjects of inquiry
before the Standing Orders Committee. The only
material alteration he proposed to introduce was, the
fixing a maximum charge. Now, he feared
that if they fixed a maximum charge it would
be an encouragement to railway companies to keep
up their charges.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think
that it would do for the Committees of that House
to adopt the plan proposed by the Hon. Gentleman.
If they once got into the habit, while Bills were
passing, of listening to offers from companies as to
which should carry passengers cheapest, he was afraid
that, not only would the accommodation afforded to
the public be lessened, but that serious danger would
ensue. Now, with regard to the Honourable Mem-
ber's motion, they would have to consider how far
their present standing orders were sufficient to effect
the object which the Honourable Member had in
view. Many of the existing standing orders
would have to be struck out and others sub-
stituted, for it could not be supposed that the
Committees would be bound by these resolutions.
With regard to the mode in which the Hon. Gentle-
man proposed to carry out his proposition, he must
say that all the railway Bills contained clauses carry-
ing out the proposition of the Honourable Member.
Whether they were useful or not he had already
stated his opinion, but they did state what ought to
be the principles of the maximum of tolls. lie
thought it much better that the line from London to
Exeter should be under one management than under
many. As it was now, people travelled in five
hours from Exeter to London ; but he thought
it would be very different if it was in many hands.
For these reasons he would advise the Hon. Member
to withdraw these resolutions. But if he could de-
vise any other mode of attaining the object he had
in view, so much was he impressed with the
importance of the principle, that he was quite
ready to go with him. For instance, if be would
propose some alteration of the standing orders of the
House, which would have the effect of obliging rail
way companies, before their coming to Parliament, to
lay down some rate of charges, it might accomplish
the end desired. But as great inconvenience would
arise from passing the resolutions in their present
shape, he trusted that he would now withdraw them.
Lord HOWICK said that he had heard with great
satisfaction the declaration of the Noble Lord (Lord
G. Somerset) that though he did not coincide alto-
gether in the terms of these:resolutions, yet that he
was prepared to accede to the principles which they
contained. And if the lion. Member should be in-
duced to withdraw them, he hoped that her Majesty's
Ministers would adopt some other mode, and that
speedily, to accomplish the object at which these
resolutions aimed. At any rate he trusted that the
Government would take up the matter, and give it
their best attention, before the great mass of railway
Bills which had been introduced this session were
committed, so that some general rules might be esta-
blished to give the advantage of cheap as well as
speedy communication between different parts of the
country, without haring any check imposed upon the
exorbitance of railway directors. His Hon. Friend
(the Member for Inverness) had said that the attempt
to establish a maximum of tolls on railways had
proved altogether nugatory. This he believed, and
he thought the time was come when Parliament
should interfere to protect the public against the ex-
cessive charges, both for passengers and goods, to
which in many instances they were subjected by
railway companies. It was well known that a re-
duction of fares generally produced an increase in
the receipts. But in many instances a larger reduc-
tion of fares did not produce an immediate benefit.
The income was at first somewhat reduced, and
railway directors naturally felt a great inclination
to try fresh experiments. On the Great Western and
Birmingham lines the charges were considerably too

high, and he believed that a reduction in their prices
would be advantageous to the companies as well as
to the public; for experience had shown that such a
result almost invariably occurred. He knew that it
was difficult to interfere with companies which were
already established, but he thought that in the new
Bills such clauses might be introduced as would im-
pose a low table of rates; and those low rates, as they
would be levied by companies possessing in some
respect lines competing with the old ones, would tend
to bring down the rates of the old lines. Perhaps it
was hardly fair to put the new lines under less advan-
tageous circumstances than the old ones ; but it
should be recollected they were formed at less ex-
pense, and with greater probability of traffic. In
France high fares were not necessary, to secure a
fair remuneration for the proprietors. There were
two plans by which railway proprietors looked for
their returns, either by charging a considerable rate,
and depending for remuneration on their first-class
passengers, or else by very low fares to very largely
increase their traffic. They could not, as the Noble
Lord said, put up railways to auction, and knock
them down at will. Their interests, he knew, were
to be considered, but so also were the interests of the
public. This was a very material element in deciding
upon the rates which railways should be entitled to
demand. He deeply lamented that something had not
been done long before this, and he hoped, therefore,
that, though late, the present occasion would not be
lost. There was one point which had been mooted
by the lion. Member, and which well deserved the
consideration of the House. The French lines, by the
Acts which authorised their formation, reverted, after
a certain period, to the Crown. Now he thought some
principle of this kind might be adopted with advantage
He would not state any particular time ; he would
give to the railway companies a sufficient time to
realise their property, but after that period they
should revert, like the French, to the State. He
might name the ordinary terms for building leases,
ninety-nine years. Now ninety-nine years was a
long period in the lives of individuals, but it was
but a very short period in the life of a country.
They must recollect, as one reason why he would
apply this principle to the new lines, that though
several lines had already been formed, a great many
more would, to a certainty, be hereafter constructed,
and they must look to the future and legislate for
posterity. A heavy debt had come down to posterity,
and it would be a sort of set-off hereafter if these
railway lines should become the property of the
public. He had always felt a facility in communica-
tion was one of the very great necessaries—one
of the indispensible requisites in a high state
of civilisation.—(Cries of "hear, hear.") They
were in a crisis of railway legislation, and he hoped
that her Majesty's Government, before .the Bills now
in the House went into Committee, would take the
subject into their serious consideration, for the doing
so would, he was assured, be a great advantage to the
public.

Sir R. PEEL said that no one could more highly
estimate the great importance of the subject than
himself. But, the more he considered it, the more
difficult it appeared. Railroads were put out of the
ordinary class of commercial competition. If an inn-
keeper let out post-horses at the rate of 2s. a mile,
and another charged only Is. 6d., the competition
would soon annihilate imposition, if tl ere were any;
or, if the charge was excessive from both, a third
would soon be introduced to remedy the evil. But, if
one railway were established, and imposed exorbitant
fares, there was no means of preventing the extor-
tion except the interference of Parliament. A second
railway might be constructed, but it would be a
long time before it would come into effect—the whole
process of raising subscriptions and going through the
preliminary forms, and then they had the uncertainty
of having their scheme adopted by Parliament. And
if it were adopted, a long period must elapse before
the railway could be finished. Yet he felt that thy
railroads were a great increase to the capital of the
country, and they promoted a facility of communica-
tion, which was of the last importance, and it was ne-
cessary to consider the interests of railway companies.
They must not forget the liability to which these un-
dertakings were subject from scientific and mechani-
*al improvements. He believed the principle that the
shortest line was the best would ultimately be adopted.
In 1825, when a scheme for a railway between Liver--
pool and London was discussed, he had ventured tg
predict that the people of Manchester and Liverpool
would not suffer themselves to be long sent Pound by
Birmingham in order to get to London. 175,000/.
had been expended in committees, and now, in 1845,
a scheme was introduced for the very purpose of
forming a branch of nine miles, between Rugby and
Stafford, in order to avoid the loss of time which had
been hitherto suffered in their communication with
the metropolis. By the shortest lisle, he did
not mean that which was shortest in point of distance,
but that by which most time was to be saved. In.
making this estimate the gradients were to be con-
sidered, for he believed that very great loss had beers
incurred by the attempt to establish railways with
unfavourable gradient s ; for a great impediment was
occasioned by the mechanical power of the locomo-
tive engines. They might establish a maxitnue,,, and
put on a pecuniary check, but he was fearf•al that no
supervision would be sufficient to ensure the com-
fort of the passengers ; and it was difficult to say
what course it was best to 'pursue. The
London and Birmingham line,
it: was true, returned
they
committed
m proprietors of
themselves of this
to rail-
wayan a large per tentage, but it ttould be recollected how
great
ran,the risk
hevrittsth\.e.-
lleh h
expenditure of no less than 6,000,000 of money. Mr.
M'Culloch, writing in 1834, said, that though the
Liverpool and Manchester line had proved a success-
ful speculation, it was by no means a certain criterion.
It would be a difficult matter to erect a tribunal which
should adjudicate upon the prices which railway com-
panies might charge. The great doubt in his mind
was, whether they would not establish too high
a rate. A railway might be formed, and in
the course of three years the traffic might
so increase upon it that they would obtain an ample
recompence from a much lower rate of fares than
that which they had originally charged, and the
country would then suffer by the imposition of a rate
according to Act of Parliament. It might be said
that he was taking a special case ; but he had no
doubt but it was one which might frequently occur.
Then there was the atmospheric principle likely to
work a great economy. He believed, that if a rail-
way were formed between London and Oxford on
this principle, that the prices would be very consi-
derably lower than could, under the present circutpe
stances, be anticipated. He thought, therefore, that
it would be difficult to establish any general rule by
which to direct Committees on Railway Bills, and he
thought that Committees on special Bills, keeping
the principle of these resolutions in view, might be
safely left to take care of the public interest. Before
the House should sanction the principle of laying
down the maximum of fare, he thought the matter
ought to undergo much more discussion and conside-
ration than had yet been given to it.
Mr. DENNISON thought the House should not
only consider the reports of the Board of Trade, but
the grounds upon which these reports were founded.

Air. S. WORTLEY said it should be recollected
that these reports of the Board of Trade were not
final. He thought that Board had discharged its
duty in an able mummer, but should be very sorry that
their proceedings should be regarded in any other
manner than as preliminary, and that those great
speculations which had been canvassed, but discou-
raged by the Board of Trade should still be fit sub-
jects for consideration in the house. He did not an-
ticipate any difficulty in dealing with companies at
present in existence, and with those yet to be formed,
nor in distinguishing between them.

Sir G. GREY said there were certain principles
regarding railway legislation, which would frequently
be forced on the attention of Parliament during the
session, and they should be speedily settled and laid
down in a distinct and decisive manner, so that uni-
formity might be ensured.—(Hear, hear.) The re-
port on the West York Railway line preferred the
line with had gradients to the line which had
good gradients, and could be constructed with much
less expense, because locomotion was every day be.
coming much more perfect and certain. IN ow, here
was a principle involved in this, that the opinion of
Parliament ought to be at once expressed upon. He
hoped, also, that Parliament would impose some
check on the rates of charges, so that monopoly
might be prever.ted, and cheapness and uniformity
secured.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PARKER said a few words, which were not
audible, after which
The resolution was withdrawn.

kr. HUME called attention to the mode of light-
ing the llouse. The Hon. Member moved for a
copy of any report of experiments for lighting the
llouse of Commons in the last and present year,
with a copy of a plan for altering the existing lights,
and an estimate of the expense of the/same.
Lord LINCOLN said the lighting of the How
did not belong to the department over which he had
control, but some experiments for lighting the new
llouses of Parliament were in course of being made
under his sanction, and with the concurrence of Dr.
Reid. Economy would, of course, be duly considered
in any decision the Commissioners of Woods anti
Forests would come to. In the lighting of the pre-
sent Houses of Parliament, he did not contemplate
mMaetmter.
abenry ch.
dloleeuclunhtsl
rneoltatfi‘u,erntioshtbethseubl-feoent.
wishedmotion, fo n
r foorn e
aexistedreport;
of
fu i
at
nfythfeutlno
ufroeeuxrapebrlie.
The subject then dropped.
oiAntfeehnmitssb, he could have it with pleasure.
e
r
SUPPLY.

The report of the Committee of Supply was brougi.
up and received.
RAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION
(SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE brought up st verai
amendment clauses for insertion in this 134, whisk