The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

ELECTION COMMITTEES.

The names of those Members of the House, who being sixty
years •f age are exempted from serving on Election Committes,
were called over.

Sir R. PEEL moved for exemption from serving upon
Election Committees as long as he had the honour of holding
the office of First Lord of the Treasury.--Agreed to.
Similar motions were made by Lord Stanley, Sir James
Graham, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as long as they
had the honour of holding their respective offices --Agreed to.
Mr. GREENE moved for exemption from serving upon
Committees as long as he continued to discharge the duties o
Chairman of Committees on opposed private Bills.—Agreed to.
The SPEAKER called upon Mr. Hume.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME—I beg to be excused—(Laughter)—on ac.
count of age.

i pi
gt
ithhrseett
eepctiorooir:ciemenodl
late
antoi
nrsoieydfbaGs
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Mr. HUME wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the First Lord of the Treasury, when he would bring for-
ward the estimates?
Sir R. PEEL said he proposed following the course adopted
during the last session, and would waive the right of proceeding
with Government business, on Government nights, during the
debate.
Mr. HUME said he supposed the estimates then would
come on on Monday.
Mr. TRELAWNY postponed till Monday the motion of
which he had given notice for a Select Committee to inquire
respecting the Duchy of Cornwall.
rot'.‘tere.
fGorlßanSOteNquatrlysotoptoosttphoenteadwhsits.emleotttoiogntoforraamSt'tetgle.ct Com-
The other motions on the paper were also postponed.
The Offences at Sea Bill was read a third time and passed.
STATE OF IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. ROSS rose to move the Order of the Day for the ad .
journed debate. He said he was heartily in favour of the
proposition of the Noble Lord (John Russell) for a Select
Committee to inquire into the causes of discontent and dis-
affection which prevailed in Ireland. He had listened with
great attention to what fell from Honourable Gentlemen oppo-
site ; but he confessed that although ha heard some intimation
of measures which were not only unobjectionable, but even
having some amount of good in them, still he had heard no-
thing from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home
Department, of a disposition to remove the complicated maladies
of Ireland, or any intimation of an intention to deal out that
measure of justice which had been so long and so ear-
nestly sought.—( Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, that
the interference of this House was more than ever essentially
necessary to the welfare of Ireland—indeed, for the safety of
the whole empire.—(Hear, hear.) So little did the Right
Hon. Gentleman seem to regard the complaints of the Irish
people—so little did he attend to their rights, that he was at
issue with the great body of the people of that country—with
the majority of their representatives, who constituted a formid-
able minority in that House—(Hear)—with a great mass of the
people of England and of Scotland, and with all the world who
are spectators, to whom his policy in Ireland appeared to be in-
explicable. It must appear inexplicable and astonishing to any
foreigner who read our history, to observe that after a
connexion of six centuries, and a nominal incorporation
of forty-three years, no real union or consolidation of
interests had taken place. It must be astonishing, that with
the opinion of statesmen and of sages in favour of a more con-
ciliatoryas
of p
acsotuf
arhgraeiecect;6olnr
aiytn:hadtithiheeeedv
eeßwnx
obsti-
nately bent upon persisting in the unfortunate course, that was
calculated to fill the whole civilised world with astonishment.
The vast empire of India was governed by an attention
frontier tiiter werewel v
itgi
administrationr
negeaot nhersfa teeal nasetamsbmmt i
aosoo
aoeefnnnpll vsttui
proper
absolute,
pua7taetps
laws.--
( roaa: annwnHos
dshee.tgfnhotrtdr . well
conciliation ; but in Ireland, to this moment, no such promise
The
gaols umdl S
ofwstnibebt pacify
irll
awchoidul l
wasntry alone
me was
neminently
were
erewanting.
soothed
successful.
by
iw, exer-
ciseeaas
rof
f) held
moral
out.
power It was
Legislature awsaoi
empty—the soldiers useless.
l(ttelTahhfxrheepgtoheet Hear,
rrdefiamtnGe
hql
ehioeuonevi
feelings
ale grerwi
impartial,
.nuo)aannlfsjt
di
uhet tranquillization nrstt
tieheo(dhsfialldorr.e,
eel
oaaßpnrnootdpai s
continued
the
u,olspopular
rights,
tignhthat t
he course,sam e andtraohgaudi l
letnt y-
would have continued. it happened during that time that this
country became involved in difficulties with one of the colonies ;
and, in allusion to that subject, a Noble and Learned Lord in the
other House quoted from Mr. Fox a passage, to which he (Mr.
Ross) would refer, and which had previously been cited by a
Noble Lord in this House ( Lord Jehn Russell). He
had no doubt that the Noble Lord conceived the use made
of the quotation was more able than just.--( Hear, hear. )
The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract:from a speech of Lord
Brougham's, and went on to ask where was that parental care
exhibited for Ireland of which the Noble and Learned Lord
had spoke—whose complaints were now unheeded—whose hopes
disappointed? Were they those of the people of Ireland ? And
with respect to the political leader of that people, Mr.
O'Connell, he must say, it was unfair to charge him with
want of sincerity in his endeavours to serve his country. The
men who were called " O'Connell's police" were appointed
in good faith to preserve peace and order at the
repeal meetings, and very successful they were in carrying
out that object. He repeated, he believed that Mr. O'Connell
was perfectly sincere, and it was a very hard thing indeed to
proceed against him by criminal prosecution for his exertions.
Had he not frequently said, thatone
Gentlemen drop of
ebn me
looeelwn charge
dbgee
too dear a price for any good he could obtain ? and upon what
ground, he asked, would Honourable
Mr. O'Connell with being a hypocrite, and say that his
words were smoother than oil, but that his thoughts breathed
nothing but violence ?
[Here the Honourable and Learned Member for
Coil( ( Mr. O'Connell) entered the House. His first ap-
pearance at the door was the signal for a loud and enthusiastic
burst of applause from all the Members of the Opposition, which,
as well as those on the Ministerial benches were much crowded.
The cheers as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman walked
up the floor of the House, were renewed again and again, and
as he took his seat in his usual place, Mr. Hume and several
other Hon. Gentlemen around crowded forward, and shook
him warmly by the hand. Mr. Ross, who was addressing the
House, was then about to resume his observations, when the
applause again burst forth, and was continued for some seconds,
when the excitement ceased )
Mr. ROSS proceeded to ask, was it wise in them to treat
the man who had been received in the way in which Mr.
O'Connell was received at that moment, as they had
treated him ?—(Loud cheers.) They might put him in
a gaol.—( Loud cheering.) How much safer would
they be if they did so ?—( Cheers. ) 'What security would
there be if he declared—( Continued cheering, and cries of
" Oh, oh.") He treated this as a political question. He
asked them to pursue the same course in Ireland which
they had pursued in Canada.—(Cheers, and Hear, hear. )
Had they well considered the consequences of alienating the
Irish people. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
Arms Bill, the only consequence of which was that it caused
alarm and consternation in Ireland, and all persons were
anxious to procure arms. He knew himself a clergyman
of the Established Church, who went about the country
procuring arms for the Orangemen, and large
collections of arms and ammunition were made for
them on the easy terms of paying for them by instalments.
lie believed that the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland was
aware of this. In one place 3,000 arms had been registered.
What, then, ought to be done in such a state of things? In
the first place, he thought that the religion of the majority of
the people of Ireland ought to be scrupulously regarded. The
affections of the people ought to be cultivated, and every abuse
ought to be found out with a keen eye, and cut away with a
firm hand. Such were the means they ought to adopt instead of
fruitlessly scattering the revenue of the country in supporting
troops in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
opinion of Lord Bacon, who, after giving a very flattering de-
scription of the fertility of Ireland, and her bold, hardy, and
active population, said that they ought to unite the
hand of man with the hand of nature to elevate and raise her.
An Hon. Gentleman said last night that the discontent
of Ireland was owing to the physical discontent of her
people. He denied that that was the fact. No doubt it
notwas
those one cause
who w
cause; butere the poorer
dooriesroocoltaesesete.
classes of Irelandltwas werethe
educated class who felt themselves to be inadequately repre-
sented and who were most discontented. Notwithstanding
what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman to explain
the striking off of the Catholics from the panel, he confessed
that he was not altogether satisfied. He was not satisfied that
the proper measures had been taken with respect to Mr. Dunn;
and with regard to Mr. Hendrick, some charge appeared to be
hanging over him which no one could guess at. The people of
Ireland were discontented at the manner in which justice had
been administered. It was not very gratifying, and could not be
very satisfactory to the people of Ireland for him, the Lord
Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, to say that he spoke under
correction of the counsel for the Crown. That was
not language which, in his opinion, ought to be
used by so high a judicial functionary. There
was no medium or safe course between a government
of conciliation and a government of violence. He
did not believe that her Majesty'e present Government
contemplated a government by force for any length of time ;
and as to the other course, that of conciliation and concession,
he knew it would be very disagreeable to them and to those
who supported them ; it would require great patience,

great moderation, and some considerable sacrifice, but they
must make up their minds that Ireland must be a Popish
country. He knew that it was difficult, but they must make up
their minds to it—not less than had been done in
Scotland, of which country the institutions were in many
respects at greater variance with the Anglican Church than
with the Roman Catholic.—( Hear.) They must arrive at equality.
They must not remain in addition, substract ion. and division ; to
arrive at equality, they !MIS, go to the rule of proportion—to the
rule of three.—( Laughter.) But by no pos=sibility could they
reconcile the present state of the Church to the feelings of the
people or to justice. Could they by possibility make up their
minds to go the length which he, and others on his side
of the House, thought they ought to go, they
would no longer have to say that Ireland was their
difficulty.—( Loud cheers.) The Hon. Member sat down
amidst much cheering, in which his concluding sentence was
quite lost.
Mr P. BORTHWICK said that in the able speech which
the House bad just heard, the Honourable Gentleman did
not say what remedies he would propose in the social,
civil, or ecclesiastical institutions of Ireland. If the Hon-
ourable Gentleman proposed to establish the Roman Ca-
tholic Church in Ireland as the Presbyterian Church was
established in Scotland—and he ( Mr. Borthwick) thought that
by far the most equitable and feasible arrangement—yet he
believed that the Hon. Member would have no more determined
opponent to such a proposition than the Noble Lord who sat
beside him ( Lord John Russell). With respect to
the late trials, he must confess that he had looked
upon it with dread. He thought that one result of
it must be that it would increase the influence of the Libe-
rator, who would now be regarded by the people not
merely as an agitator, but as a martyr in their
cause. However, it would have this advantage, that it
world enable the Government to advance to Ireland with
measures of conciliation, when they were in a condition to say
that concession had not been extorted by intimidation—when
they had put an end to those multitudinous meetings which
disquieted Ireland, and, he might say, alarmed Europe.
What benefit (IA they expect would arise from a debate on the
sufferings of Ireland in that House? Why, none what-
ever—or rather the effect of a debate, which would be
nothing but an interchange of charges between the opposing
parties, would be but to embitter the animosities which dis-
tracted that country and add to the fuel that consumed it.
That would be the effect of a debate, and not a
remedy for the evils of the country. The Honourable
Gentleman who had spoken last said that Mr. O'Connell
was perfectly sincere in his desire to benefit his country.
lie (Mr. Borthwick) for one never had the slightest doubt
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork in his long career
had only in view the good of his country. But he was not to
judge of the lion. and Learned Gentleman's motives, but of
the results of his career, and if he were asked whether it were
better to assist the Minister of the Crown in proposing re-
medial measures fur Ireland. er aid in taking from that House
the power of legislating for that country, he could have no hesi-
tation in giving the preference to the former course. With re-
spect to the motion of the Noble Lord (J. Russell), he must
certainly oppose it, because no good to Ireland could result
from it. Suppose that, instead of Lord Normanhy, an Orange-
man had been Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, would it not have
been considered very unfair to quota the opinions and policy of
such an ultra-Lord-Lieutenant, as a precedent for future
Lord-Lieutenants. He craved permission of Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to consider that sympathy for the people of Ireland
was not entirely confined to themselves—they should give Hon.
Members on this ride of the House credit for acting, according
to their honest convictions. No measure could be more calcu-
lated to confer any practical benefit on the Irish people than
the motion of the Noble Lord, nor hardly any measure more
productive of mischief.—( Hear) No favourable issue could be
anticipated from it, and he felt it to be his bounden duty to
give that motion his most strenuous opposition. And in-so doing
he would not be actuated by any motive of indifference or dis-
like to the interests of the people of Ireland, and he sincerely
wished that the government of that people might be carried
out in the spirit of affection and good-will, in such a manner as
would secure ultimate peace and prosperity to that country.
There was a disposition on the other side of the House, to attri-
bute every vote given in favour of Ministers to a haired of
Ireland—that was a most unjust aspersion. The Noble Lord
had alluded to the term " aliens," used by the Lord Chancellor.
lie thought sufficient explanation had been given to the House
that that word had not been used in an invidions sense. The Eng-
lish aliens in the same sense as the Irish were in the way
Lord Lyndhurst had used the word.— ( Hear, hear.) They
were aliens to the Irish as the Irish were to them. He could
hardly wonder at strong expressions having b: en used by the
Hun. Member for Cork, when the Noble Lord, the Member for
London, condescended to have recourse to such paltry party sub.
terfuges. The agitator .vas no longer the Member for Cork,
but the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of Lon-
don. Agitation had been transferred to the benches opposite.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had been received
in that House in a spirit of good- will. He participated in that
spirit. But as they sat in that House as legislators, he was of
opinion those who so received him after his conviction must be
inimical and hostile to the good of the State.--( Cheers.) He
(Mr. Borthwick) had the greatest respect for the abilities of
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and he believed he was
sincere in the policy he pursued, though he was net very coura
teouslv received even by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
himself, when on one occasion he said so. Now that the law
had been vindicated, he did not wish he should receive any
punishment.—( Hear, hear.) 'I he people of Ireland would
now perceive that the language addressed to them by Mr.
O'Connell was not to be tolerated. They would see he was not
to be a Viceroy over her Majesty, and was not to supersede
both Houses of Parliament. He thought the empire owed
the present Government a debt of gratitude for putting down
the agitation, and he now hoped that they would follow it tipo
by developing the great resources of prosperity in Ireland, and
would pull up all those noxious weeds which would tend to
foster any similarly obnoxious agitation:
Sir H. WINSTON BARRON said he did not rise for the
purpose of answering the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, but he rose to ask whether, after this country had pos-
sessed Ireland for 700 years, they were still determined to keep
her by a military occupation ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, confessed that
she was to be so held, and no Hon. Gentleman denied it. Now
he would ask in sober sadness, as an Irishman—of the people
of England, of the people of cotland, the people of Wales, of
the whole civilized world, whether this was a state of things
which could be borne by any men of spirit who had hearts to
feel or kends to act? He did not say it by way
of menace, but he asked them did they think the
people of Ireland ought to submit to it ? They would
not submit to be kept in military bondage by any nation.—
( Cheers.) You would not submit to it yourselves. You
extracted Alagna Charta from one King, and you brought
another—he would not then inquire whether justly or no—to
the block, because he attempted to encroach upon your liber-
ties ; and when you would not submit to be tyrannised yourselves,
do you think the people of Ireland will submit to it ?—( Cheers. )
It was not in human nature to submit to it, and the people of
Ireland would not long submit to it. He would never join in any
armed opposition to the laws of the land—he would never unite in
any military array against the Government, if such arose in the
country ; but did they think that seven millions of Irishmen
had the same reasons for not doing so which he had ? The country,
was poor and distracted—it was in a state approaching to disor-
ganization. They had many grievances to complain of, as he
was prepared to show, upon the authority of men possessed of
large fortunes in the country—men of rank—men who seldom
mix themselves up in political agitation. A petition had been
presented to Parliament by men representing property amount-
ing, at least, to 800,000/. or 600,000/. a-year. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then referred to the petition agreed to at Charlemont
House, and setting forth the grievances of the country. The
Hon. Gentleman then referred to the address of the Irish Mem-
bers at the close of the last session of Parliament. They sot
forth the grievances of the country, and, amongst other things,
they complained that the resources of the country were not
developed. This, in his opinion, was one of the greatest evils
afflicting Ireland. The second demand of the Irish represen--
tatives last year was, the recognition of perfect equality with
regard to ecclesiastical and educational arrangements between
the several religious classes into which the population of Ireland
is divided; the third was a more ample representation; the
fourth, a franchise adequate to giving full expression to public
opinion ; the fifth, an assimilation of municipal rights in both
countries ; the sixth, that Ireland should participate more
largely in the benefit of the public expenditure. That was a
matter which had been sadly neglected by the British Legisla-
ture—by English Chancellors of the Exchequer—and by none
more than by the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom lie saw oppo-
site. The seventh demand was, that, in the administra-
tion of the Government, the profession of the Roman Catholic
faith, should be no longer a ground virtually, as it had ceased
to be one legally, of exclusion from official situations. And on
this subject he must advert to the anomalous position in which
Ireland found herself. There was not a place of honour
and emolument there which was not filled with men totally
ignorant of, and unconnected with, Ireland—men who first
set their foot on the soil of Ireland ashen they went
to fill a situation there. Then, with respect to
legislative representation, Ireland ot as entitled to at least 130
Members. Why, he askesi, should not Ireland have as many
voters, in proportion to her population and resources, as Eng-
land ? Were not the voters in that country as independent, and
as worthy of the franchise, as the voters in England? Were
they not rather more independent, for it was a well-known fact
that a tenant in England never ventured to vote against the
wishes of his landlord, while, in Ireland, the voter invariably
voted according to his conscience. He knew an instance of
his position with respect to the English voter, which bore him
out in his assertion. In a county of England with which he
was acquainted, a Noble Lord possessed an estate, the tenants
upon which always voted for a Whig candidate at elections,
because the Noble Lord was of Whig principles. The heir
who afterwards inherited the estate was of opposite principles,
and what was the consequence ? Why, the tenants voted at the
last election for the Conservative candidate, a thing they never
did in their lives before. With respect to taxation, which was
a matter of the utmost importance in an inquiry into the
state of Ireland, very erroneous statements were very in-
dustriously circulated. A writer, in whom Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite seemed to have great confidence, had written
a pamphlet on this subject, which was filled with mis-
representations from beginning to end. He meant the
late work of Mr. Montgomery Martin. By such productions
Englishmen were led to believe that Ireland did not bear a fair
share of the taxation of the empire. But he would cite the
opinions of men whose authority on the subject certainly could
not be outo eighed by that of Mr. Montgomery Martin, how-
ever much Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think of that per-
son. Lord Fitzgerald, the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer
in the year 1816, when proposing the consolidation of the Ex-
chequers of the two countries, stated that Ireland had, in the
sixteen years that elapsed since the union, paid 78,000,000/. in
taxation, which was 47,000,0001. more than she was bound to
pay; and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer), in the year 1822, stated that it was then al-
lowed, on all hands, that the contribution to the taxation of the
empire of two-seventeenths from Ireland, was more than she
was able to bear. Mr. Leslie Foster bore similar testimony as
to Ireland's being overburdened with taxation. Had the Right
Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government no
remedy to offer for such a state of matters ? He (Sir H.
Barron) believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was placed
in a false position with respect to Ireland. He believed
him honest in his intentions and opinions, but he
was diametrically opposed to the party who supported
him in that country, and how then could he hold office with
honour to himself and benefit to the country while such was
the case. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to retire from
office when he fouttd he could not benefit the country by his
administration, or he ought to adopt measures of a really beneficial
nature. The trade and manufactures of Ireland had been de-
clining apace ever since the union. The Hon. Baronet then
quoted extracts from the speech of Dr. Boyton, a Conserva-
tive, in order to show that the trade and manufactures of Ire-
land had declined since the union. The Doctor said that the
imports and exports of Ireland had vastly diminished, that
thousands of people were out of employment, and had not the
slightest means of obtaining their daily bread. Was it not the
business of a great statesman to prevent the continuance of such
a state of things without attempting a remedy? Public works.
such as railroads, opening the mines and collieries, and clear-
ing waste lands, should be set on foot. The condition of the
people was getting worse from year to year, and by conse-
quence, crime had increased, for, in the year the Whigs went
out of office, it required only a military force of 13,000, now
double the number are requisite. The Irish people should be
governed, not by the swore., but by enlisting their affections
He was sorry to say that those newspapers which were said to
represent the I. ish Government, such as the Mail and the
Packet, wore continually pouring out the vilest abuse on the
Catholic people and their clergy; and these attacks were echoed
on this side of the Channel by the 7imes, which used such
phrases as " surpliced ruffians," and a " demon priest-
.

hood." He did not attribute the feelings which gave
birth to them to the English people. God forbid. He
did not believe the sensible portion of the
English people were actuated by such feelings. But what were
they to say to the declamations at Exeter-hall—what were
they to say to the printed emanations of that assembly which
were circulated through hundreds of thousands of the people of
England and Ireland. and which contained such expressions as
" the awful perjury of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland," and
" the repeal of the fatal Emancipation Act ?"—( Hear, hear.)
He regretted that some Englishmen lent themselves to such
disgraceful proceedings, and participated by their presence and
approbation in such heinous slander of their fellow-subjects.
The appointments in Ireland of the present Government had
been most objectionable. Chief Justice Pentiefather, one of
these appointments, had lately distinguished himself by what
was aptly termed a speech to evidence. An Irish barrister,
who was not at all interested in the fate of the traversers,
described the charge as " a speech to evidence," and as being
still more exceptioeable in its manner of delivery than
in its matter. lie said there never was a more disgraceful
exhibitien at the Irish bar. This same Chief Justice Penne-
father had, in charging a jury, a short time ago, in a prosecu-
tien far libel against the editor of a Dublin newspaper, actually
told the ju, y that what they were about to try was a most dia-
bolical libel. Then, as regarded the appointments of Baron
Lefroy, and Mr. Justice Jackson, they, too, were highly excep-
tionable. Why, the Duke of Northumberlaud would not let
Sergeant Lefroy go on circuit on account of his violent politics;
and the appointment of Sergeant Jackson was equally objec-
tiocable, for the same reasons. He did not deny that both
were very upright, honourable men, but they were totally unfit
for the situations they now filled. The dismissal of the ma-
gistracy was a most unwise step, particularly the dismissal of
the stipendiary magistrates, in whom the people justly placed
confidence.—( Hear, hear.) But what could he say to the
State trials, a packed jury, a pistol Attorney-Ges
neral, and a Judge Jeffreys, as an Englishman ha I wittily
remarked to him (Sir H. W. Barron) He asked, in
the name of the people of Ireland, and in the name of every-
thing sacred and dear to man, that that people might be go-
verned on principles of equity, impartiality, and justice, and
that the present system of ascendancy and misgovernment
might cease for ever.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. W. REPTON opposed the motion of the Noble Lord,
and thought that the Government had acted wisely regarding
the Irish State prosecutions. He would not detain the House
longer than to say one word with respect to the Catholie priest-
hood. lie was a sincere member of the Church of England ;
but he thought that any attempt to oppose the Catholic clergy
would be insane, fur it would create an agitation more for-
midable than that which had just been put down.—( Hear. )
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that in the whole course
of this debate, which involved so much the character of the
Government, the House had heard no expression of opinion on
the part of any member of the Government connected with
Ireland, except a Lord of the Irish Treasury ( Mr. Young).
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department, indeed, had declared his views with respect to the
future government of Ireland. He had spoken out. He bad
told them that he was determined to govern that country in a
constitutional manner, but that it had always been occupied by
force, and must he governed by force. So far as Ireland was
concerned the " dodging" system was given up, and the
Liberal party would know how to act. He hoped the Irish
Liberals would unite with those of this country, and no longer
divide their strength.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet plainly told his intentions about Ireland, but he said no-
thing of his views respecting the commercial policy of England.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had not used the words
that Ireland should he korerned by force.
Mr. MORE OI2ERRAL I.—lf the Right Hon. Gentleman
did not say so in precisely these words he said so substantially.
He said it was absolutely necessary tornaintain the Established
Church, and he was determined to do so. Now, surely that was
anintimation of his determination to rule by force, for the
Established Church could not be maintained otherwise than
by force.—( Cries of " No, no, no," from the Ministerial
benches.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone further,
he did say that Ireland had alwas been occupied by force, and
if he (Mr. O'Ferrall) had not remembered exactly the words
which followed, their meaning was certainly to the effect, that
the Government must he maintained by force. Force was ne-
cessary to mainta:n the Established Church in its present false
position. No one could deny that the ministers of that Church
interfered very materially with secular affairs.—( Hear, hear.)
He had known cases in which clergymen had recommended to
the landlords that they should get rid of their Catholic tenants
and fill up their places with Protestants--( Hear, hear) —and
there was, therefore, a strong feeling among the peasantry in
that country, that they should be dispossessed of their farms to
snake room for Protestants. The clergy placed them-
selves in an anomalous state, and he believed that
the half secular, half religious, character of the Church
was the great cause of the excited state of that coun-
try. Now let the House consider what was the effect of the
late with respect to the certificates If he (Mr. More O'Fer-
rail) had occasion to prove, in a court ofjustiee, that he was a
Christian, a certificate of baptism from a Roman Catholic
priest would not be legal evidence ; and the same rule applied
to the certificates of marriage.—( Hear, hear, hear.) So with
respect to the registration of wills, no matter in what part of
the country a man may live, he must register his will in the
diocesan courts, and everybody knew in what way the bu-
siness of those courts was neglected. Now, this was a purely
secular matter, and there was no occasion whatever for
the clergy to interfere in it, as there was already an establish-
ment for registration in Dublin, which worked very well.—
( Hear, hear.) He thought that the Liberal party in Ireland
ought to unite with the English Liberals, upon such a ques-
tion as the repeal of the union. He never did, and never would
conceal his opinions upon that question. But this he would
say, that the result of the union must be this, that England
must be lowered to the condition of Ireland, er Ireland raised
to the condition of England.—( Hear.) The condition of the
people of this country was much worse since the union, and was
becoming worse from year to year. The emigration of Irish
labourers into this country had increased from year to year, and
was increasing ; and if something was not done to raise the
Irish from their present poverty, the degradation of the English
labourer would go on increasing. He said this to show that it
was not Irishmen alone, but every man in that House,
and every man in England, was interested in im-
proving the condition of the Irish people—(Cheers)—
Gentleman opposite cheered, as if they agreed in that opinion.
—(Cheers.) If they did so, why, then, not take the proper
steps to effect it ?—( Hear, hear.) It might be prejudice—
and to a great extent he admitted it was—to think that they
were not disposed to do so. But the measures they spoke of
adopting were but little calculated for the purpose. ( Hear,
hear.) Certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Gra-
ham) proposed to give the Catholics the power of endowing
their own Church, but it was to be borne in mind that the Ca-
tholics had already, and richly endowed their Church. They
had built churches in every parish. They had established
throughout the country rich ecclesiastical foundations, but their
churches and church lands were taken from them and given to
the Protestant clergy ; and in many of those churches, in the
most extensive parishes, no service was at this day celebrated
by the clergy who possessed them. Now, what security could
the Catholics of Ireland have that if they availed themselves of
the proposed law a similar plunder might not again be perpetra-
ted ? The Right Hon. Gentleman promised also to introduce a
measure for the better registration of voters, but he (Mr. O'Fer-
rall) would not say anything of its merits until he knew what it
was. But he understood, from a newspaper report, that the Right
Hon. Baronet had said to a friend of his that the contemp-
lated division of the counties would strengthen the Tory inter-
est.--( Cheers and laughter.) It had been complained that
the subject of the late State Trials ought not to have
been introduced in this discussion; but he thought that it was
not possible to have omitted it in the consideration
of his Noble Friend's motion. Now, what had been
the effect of those trials upon public opinion ? What was
the opinion of the public as to :,the Constitution of the jury?
Catholics were rejected, and it was said that they were re-
jected, not because they were Catholics, but because they
were Repeaters ; but the fact proved otherwise, for they were
not Repealers.—( Hear, hear. ) Yet if they had belonged to
that society, why were the members of the society in Dawson-
street not objected to, when it was known that they had very
strong feelings against the accused? To this it had been an-
swered, that it was difficult to get an impartial jury
in Ireland. But that ought to have been con-
sidered, by those who asserted it, a good reason
for having no trial at all.—(" Oh, oh," from the Tory benches.)
What, then, had been the case ?—(Hear, hear.) Could any
man believe that it had been a fair conviction? If he (Mr.
O'Ferrall) thought that it was a fair conviction, he would have
honestly owned it in that House. The trial had not had the
effect that it was intended, and ought to have had. If it had
been shown to the people of Ireland that the traversers were
tried in a fair and satisfactory way, the conviction would have
produced an immense moral effect, but the only effect it could
now have would be to create distrust in the administration of
the law, and the universal belief of the people that the
proceedings were all unfair from beginning to end:—
( Hear, hear.) There was a strong feeling certainly
that the accident which happened to the jury list happened on
purpose. He did not think so, nor did he say it ; but he
would say that great and culpable negligence had been ex-
hibited.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to speak of the
Attorney-General in his absence, but he would say that, from
the beginning to the end, there had been a system of blunder.
ing highly discreditable. There was nothing new in such con-
duct of law proceedings in Ireland. There had always been
an indisposion on the part of the judges and the law authorities
of the Crown to apply to the practice of the Irish Courts the
principle of justice and good sense which prevailed in the ad-
ministration of the Criminal law in England. In 1776 an
English lawyer was appointed to a Judgeship in
Ireland. He found that it was the practice in
the Criminal Courts there that the grand juries found the
bills of indictment upon written evidence and without examin-
ing the witnesses.—( Hear, hear.) He remonstrated on the
subject with his brother judges, and recommended the English
practice of examining viva voce before the jury. But the Irish
judges replied that there was no necessity for any change, for
the Irish mode was good enough for Ireland.—( A laugh.) So
the practice continued to the year 1816, when Mr. Horner
proposed a Committee to inquire into the subject, and they re—
ported that the practice was to find indictments upon written
evidence in all cases excepting that of rape, in
which the unfortunate female who was injured was compelled
to go before the jury ; and he brought in a Bill to alter the
law in that respect, and to require the indictments to be found
upon examination. But he met the greatest opposition from
all the authorities connected with Ireland, and especially from
the juries. However, the next year Mr. Horner brought in
his law, and in Committee there was only one alteration made
in it, by the introduction of a clause authorising the finding
upon written evidence in some cases. The clause- was intro-
duced by Lord Castlereagh, but it was struck out in the
House of Lords by Lord Ellenborough, who said that it was the
worst clause in the Bill, and that they must not give the Irish
gentlemen so much rope as they would desire.—(Laughter.)
lie also introduced a clause directing that the judges should
explain this Bill to the grand juries. Accordingly, one judge,
Lord Norbury, in expounding the Act said, that it did a great
injury to Ireland in attacking the reputation, of the judges, and
compelling jurors to examine witnesses.—( Laughter.) He
mentioned this to show that it was not a new practice in Ire-
},and to interpret the law against the prisoners. They had the
admission of one of the judges that what was law in England
in favour of the accused, was not law in Ireland. They saw the
severity—almost the animosity with which the Chief Justice
addressed the jury.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But they had also
seen another difference between the practice of the English
courts and that of the Irish. If two men were brought
before a magistrate in England, and one of them
dared to challenge the other, he would be imme-
diately committed to prison. He remembered the
case of a gentleman who, being examined in the Court of
Queen's Bench here, in what he conceived a very offensive
manner, as soon as he was dismissed from the box, he sent
" a t!isree-cornered note" to the offending counsel, and in four
hours he was sent to Newgate—(Hear)—and very properly.
However, that was not the case in Ireland—(Hear)—where a
gentleman, filling the position of the Attorney-General, trans-
gressed in a similar way, the Court passed it over, which he
contended ought not to have been the case. Ho believed that
the object of the Government was not vindication, but that the
whole conduct of the proceedings was wrong, and they had
failed to carry out their object, which was to impress the public
that justice had been done. The people felt very indignant at
the rejection of all Roman Catholics from the panel. He
would not have felt indignant if they had been rejected only as
repealers; but the fact was that they were not such. He should
have thought no more about it, but he found that it was the
servants of all work of the Government who took that invidious
task upon themselves. He found that another of the law
functionaries had, at a public meeting, spoken in a most out-
rageous manner of the Catholic people of Ireland, and of the
Catholic Members of that House.—(Name name who ?

who ?) When he saw thatthe
a Noble Lord, a ielen ber of the
present Government had distinguished himself by using i.s.";
most insulting language towards the Catholic Members
Parliament and the whole Irish people—when he found thats
the man who never did sne act , good or bad, without a persouall
object, and who was looking for the place of the other Noble
Lord, had spoken in a similar strain, he was bound to come.
to the conclusion that it was the systematic policy
of the
Government. He thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had spoken with more asperity than was necessary of the result
of the trial. He had got a verdict, but when the constitution
of the jury was considered, it was impossible to avoid the in-
ferenee that the proceedings were unfair. The first ho
officer of the Crown, at a public meeting. had expressed him.
self in offensive terms respecting the conduct and motives of:
the Irish Catholics in that House ; but when the matter was.
mentioned over and over again for ten years, he never had the
manliness or candour to state whether he held those opinions-
-( Hear, hear.) Putting all these things together the people
said now " there is a Tory Government in England, and there
n
was nothing to expect. It' the man to whom we must leek up
cannot obtain justice, how can we?"—( Cheers.) What had
been the conduct of their underlings in office? What could.
be expected when the Government suffered their higher
officers to act as they had done ? Was it not a matter of course
that, the underling should say, " Oh ! strike off that fellows
he's a Catholic ; the fellow will swear on his thumb."—( Hess-)
The belief has been confirmed in the public mind in Dubbin
by the result of the trials. He admitted that the Government.
had got a triumph, but they were in a more difficult positiom
than before. The country was exasperated more than ever,
and believed that the verdict was not obtained by fair means.
He thought that the difficulties of the Government were ren-
dered insuperable; but if he ventured to state in that House
what his opinion was of the consequences, it would be said,
perhaps, that his anticipations produced the result. But this
he would say, that there was no consideration on earth which'
w mid induce him to stand in the position of the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Attorney-General.—( Hear, hear.) Much of
the responsibility, also, rested with the Noble Lord oppoiaa
(Lotd Stanley). He knew the rashness of the Noble Lori•
in his courage and his readiness to attack any person what,
ever, but he was sorry that the Noble Lord's antagonism and:
animosity were called forth in Ireland. He assured the House
that they would never have heard of the repeal of the union
if it had not been for him—( Hear, hear)—who did more to
exasperate the people than any other Member even of the
present Government ? He knew the Noble Lord's strong ani-
mosities, which he never hesitated to express, and no doubt he
(Lord Stanley) thought that the Government had nothing
But
more to do than to maintain the army and the income-tax.
if any struggle should arise, what was to become of those who
had taken no part in the agitation ? He would tell the Noble
Lord that he held a position which was of great responsibility-
The Noble Lord's Right Hon. Colleague had told him that be
had reduced the troops in Ireland ; but he, Mr. O'Ferrall)
would tell him that if he meant to govern by tbe sword, it
must be a long one and a strong one. He had said that there
were 23,000 troops in Ireland, but if they pursued their present
policy, he world wish that they were fifty times augmented.
Sir J. GRAHAM rose to explain. He understood the
Right Hon. Gentleman to have said that he (Sir J . Graham)
had said that the policy of the Government would be to retain
Ireland as a part of the British dominions by military far''."
alone. What he said was this, and it was in the recollection
of the House, that the Established Church of Ireland should be
maintained in all its rights and privileges.—(Hear, hear.) II:
stated that it was necessary, so late as March, 1843, to increr°,s,,
the military force of Ireland, and that when they came into
office the military force in Ireland was diminished. He went
on to state that it became necessary to increase the armyree'°
consequence of the attempts which were made to overawe tn"
Government by the demonstration of physical force, and he
added, that it was not to be the permanent policy of the Go-
vernment to hold Ireland by military force, but after 'inch'
eating the supremacy of the law, and net leaving to force 0°
the one hand or yielding to intemperate counsel on the other'
they would retain to the Crown of this country that inestimable
portion of her Majesty's dontinions.—( Cheers. )
Mr. SHAW said that he would not nave troubled the nous!'
at least not at the present time, had lie not been so pointedly
referred to by the Noble Lord opposite, and his Right WTI;
Friend ( Sir James Graham), during the present debate, wiel
regard to the omission of the sixty names from the genete
jury list. It therefore became necessary for him to trouble t'e
House with a few observations, and, in doing so, it would D,
;
requisite to refer to the details of the Act of Parliament und°
which the special jury was made out. (The Right Hon. Gen;
tleman then went on to detail what was requisite to be d°°
under the Act of Parliament.) A great deal of misrepresen
tation had gone abroad with regard to the omission of tn"...„
names from the list. Now the real facts of the case wey
these. Instead of sixty or sixty-five names being omitte
thirty of whom were said to be Roman Catholics, there
were nineteen names omitted, and five were wrongly placed °(1
the list; and this happened in transferring between 4,000 oat
5,000 names. The result was that, instead of their being
names on the general list, there were only 717. Great 6_51
citement prevailed in Dublin respecting those trials• al,
counsel and attorneys on both sides attended his Court to a,
tend to the making out of the general list. The Court $s
for nine hours on each day from the Bth to the 14th of Novell;
ber. The parish collectors made out a general list, which I'o
revised in his Court. When revised a copy was giceho
to the Clerk of the Peace, who handed it to
Sheriff. Dublin was divided into twenty parishee;
from which a list of 4,000 names was made. In consequent,
of the difficulties the collectors had to make out a full ltsd
there were about 600 persons whose names were omitted, aaio
which were afterwards added to the 4,000. The great struggio
was to have the names put at the top of the list, to enable the
to be on the Special Jury. The names were to be arrant-.6
according to rank and property, and it was required that thee'd
should be nine classes of qualifications. If a person establiti,
his right to be placed on the list, his name had to be interlin
and a cross was placed opposite to his name to draw the attee,
tion of the officer to it, that it might be transferred by theflo
gistrar. He took each of the 20 parishes ; and when the eia' „
of each were disposed of, he considered that his judicial falib-ei
tions were performed, and in that opinion he was confirmed.'
Mr. Justice Perrin. But there was a duty of an administrative,
nature to be performed, namely, to have the general list Pre°3
perly arranged according to rank and property. He orderre,
the registrar so to arrange the list, and to put the names in
gistraroo
rf gu1ag744,16,00 tt
ho
namesoks
alk7ai
nl otgorfgd:eratr.
h.
edtrih,ffe andrhe enrcec Specialuwere,tf t
Jo uf
ertnyhttevhr_eelf
ifomsoutr
re.tt4ss:r4a,,:el
he came to the explanation as to how they were Omitted.
and
did so from the statement made to him by the registrar, an'
te
was bound to add, after the strictest investigation made into
subject by himself, that he was satisfied of the truth of 0,
statement. He stated, that as a list from each of the teTb'e,
parishes had been returned separately. he thought it nOlll or
more simple to take each class by itself. He took up the g,ore,
ral list and read the marked names. There were, there'eote
nine classes for each parish, which he placed on separate sheet'
of paper. There were, therefore, 180 sheets, that is, tweed."
parishes multiplied by the nine classes. These lie called :0,
and checked with the original list : having. as he thought, as to
pleted this, he put by the general list. The next step wg.
make, from the nine classes of the different parishes, one genes'
ral class to constitute the general list. For this purP,°l,oo
laid on the table the several sheets for use. One 0' ` isot
sheets, containing 15 names of the class called traders, belongsne
to St. Audeon's parish, was mixed with the blank sheetP teat
laid aside. Then upon going over the names he font'', bag'
four of the names were altogether overlooked, and tha ore
others, not having the proper crosses opposite their name'. t, se
transferred into the commou list instead of the special loose
as to be omitted altogether from the special InrYerrea•
Thus it was that the omission of twenty-four names oce" abl.
With regard to the remaining thirty-six the Right Honnueerlf
Gentleman was understood to say that they were iroPr7oree.
put on the list, and, as one instance, he said that the .ios
of William Saurin, of Stephen's-green, who was deadtopeis
one of the names. His Right Hon. Friend had expeeeo_,d to
regret to him that there should be any error, with reed ca'
those lists, and he would not obtrude upon the House teeseng'
pression of his own regret. The fact was, time was Pr rata
and he was over-fastidious to have everything done accUry be
and correctly. Immediately after the list was Made e-verr,
wrote to one of the officers of the Court, hoping that
es had
thing was complete. On being informed that some name, be
been omitted, he wrote to the Sheriff to put it rig eo re'
the Sheriff was advises! not to touch the list; which 000
ceived. The four names which had been omitted were , ,
of Sir George Roe, the late Lord Mayor ; Mr. HO t
ned that
Reynolds, and another gentleman, and when he flrseer,'",
this was the case he immediately wrote to the Hignlii veld
saying he thought he might insert their names bin 0%04
the 24th section of the Act of Parliament. He then tei'
to give on amendment of the list to the High-Sheriff,
named
upon himself the responsibility of adding the
Upon searching for the fifteen names which had been
_uso4.,'
from the list from St. Audeon's parish, the sheet 0q rc:
they were placed was found amongst the blank 5,11,;°/.0:1, the
then spoke to the officer of the Court, and said, ger,
have committed this error you must go and in'"dte
Ibis
solicitors of both parties of the error."—( Hear.) Hof Ole;
Omitted
_na,j(!e.O
upon his own responsibility, and from a sense
With regard to the fifteen names on the mislaid sltsie,eeht_ih":teie,
inquiteewhether they were Protestants or not ; but siorit/ae
was, judging from the names and localities, that the n'reoesieleri,
them were Roman Catholics, but the majority of
nine were Protestants. Considering that they , Jen"' 'or
through between 4,000 and 5,000 names, he did n° oty- 0 -
there was any very great negligence in omitting tweoseeteit,
names, and in the chance of a ballot among such a he
741, he did not think, if they were not omitteds,rwho 130
could have been much different from what it was•
as a IR° at
would allow him to add, also, that the regietrar w °meet tiel
Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) If lie believed for one in ee
ear,
he fraudulently or corruptly left out those nan%or, bat
expose him and subject him to punishment.-o:_rooseesod
He knew net what might be said in that ~:es belles of
in the city of Dublin, where he was knownsrtreosb!;_ot ,
no person of any class or creed would think to%
lending his countenance to any such thing.—((,t-'o"otiee
both sides of the House.) He was satisfied no sun
pa pr
arty kind could have influenced him to valet; 000_0
ceeding.—( Hear, hear.) He leLltieravredthlahtatthitepatietuer"e;osent:
mistake on the part of his reel'.
omitted, but he was content to take himself.b had beein
sea
sibility and blame of what had occurred. -unse bn"
c"' lete s,e
tacked, and was subjected to the abuse of hired
those who followed him in this debate might attLe wirrkga
he was content to submit to it all.—(Cheers.)
accused of negligence, but it was unintentional. 0001000 f
the House for the credit they gave to hi' the ,graectis,,°
(Cheers.) He would now advert very briefly' tett satisfy
Lord
Noble v
question before the House. He heard with greaed The
ys
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet relavd. h he
was not quite prepared "to
.Litohrdr,eghaorwdevtoer,thseeeEmsetdablished Church in thoeg
"swtriilklien.-t2(%C.°huenics.b)eerll9)e--obßedli
there the advocate of the Protestant Church be
the Protestant religion as established by law snu, the 1140!
in connexion with the State in every portion u_ieared woof
Kingdom.—( Cheers and counter cheers ) 31 to ay Ilie
to be strange political morality in the Noble lewouasiortgt
because the majority of the people were above eoteesreito
Established Church should not be upheld in 11
a the Frcit o°°'
Ihe Noble Lord ought to recollect that
cot have
laos
Parliaments which passed the union would :I.
sensed to that measure if they did not believ,rand en
.7.t,es
(Chet a. it of ro..the
Church in Irelan I was to be upheld.—
. as
ebeerisn.g)
preferable He spoke t
oo of a
territorialc ong r ega but the for n
characteristic of a sect, the latter was the es
_opotieroe
blishment.—( Cheers. ) The Right Hon. 11_,e jo the.,ooo,
alluded to the alterations and improvements maao", onizer,oes
Protestant Church, and said it was unjust an
,useort, ebees,et
after the Roman Catholic occupiers were relieveret! "..6 teey
rates and tithes to attack the Protestant Chu
,P t,%eiteetioti
t one,i o distril:eu_tcw
ofraws.tt:eis,
her
in Ireland.—(Opposition cheers.) There
°see to e ie
nr
that the Irish Members were very much °ppm opts,e
Nothing was more calculated to keepvraa,uvareo jwacishr
on this subject ; but English Members Were, in
more violent in their attacks than the .1.
( Hear, hear.) All they wanted was domestioef ea
Gods an elelk"
cal cheers. ) Let them have it in the namee
ar, hear.)
0000,
up their prejudices towards eachHev„, stroog stast,
lish gentlemen seemed to think no language b'rtli l'" elicaril
to use towards those who were Irishmen by , That
iu relieion, and Conservatives in politics.
—settled
nd tie
What he wished was, that nothing should be u
0_ Acs, an Ile
was his opinion with regard to the Emancipate:le seise •_eieeo
expected to be met on the other side in a stinoluld them
certainly considered the Roman Catholics le !fejnetie", 0,.
to leave the Protestant Church unattacked if lernailni,iarel
oes.
conceded. —(No, no.) Certainly Mr. Cann •tr' that suee.
Plunk td and others were of opinion that J boo
sure were passed, the Established Church wow

............ ••-•

ber of the
wing .the;
.mbers
itind that
a personalT
her Noble