The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-24 00:00:00

a man of unimpeached character, and of whom nothing but
good was spoken. All at once a very grave accusation—it was
said he was guilty of a very cruel act, that in the depth of the
severe winter he had refused his pupils the use of fire.
A strict investigation was instituted, and what
was the result ? Why, that this excellent
pedagogue had denied the use of squibs and crackers, and be-
cause he prevented them from singeing their coats, he was
accused of the enormous barbarity of denying a little warmth
to his perishing pupils.—(Laughter.) Such appeared to him
to be the kind of accusation hrox,glit against the Government
for not allowing the feelings of polemical animosity to prevent
the improvement of the people. —( Hear, hear.) Not only
was this a religious measure, but that man was above the re!i-
gious man who would do acts of mercy and justice to the Irish.
It had been said that the measure was not palatable to the Ca-
tholic prelates. If they waited for a measure that would be
palatable to them, they must give what would be unpalaable
to the great body of the United Kingdom.—( Hear,hear.) He
could not think that the Honourable Member for Cork
or Kilkenny represented the feelings of the Irish people ; for
he thought, nay, he knew, that a great mass of the populatiott
of Ireland, Catholic, Protestant, and Presbyterian, rejiced in
the prospect of a measure which would give those who could
not afford now to procure it, the means of a good classical
education without the bane of sectarian animosities.—( Hear. )
But while he denied that the member for Cork expressed the
opinion of the Irish people, he equally repudiated the assump-
tion that the member for the University of Oxford represented
the feeling of the Church of England. He would rather ad-
mit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who he supposed
would support the Bill, merited that claim more than ten
to one. Those who professed to be very godly should recollect
what was said by one of the first judges of the heart, that it was
ever the peculiarity of those who make a pretence of godliness
never to be satisfied till they could put their fingers on their neigh-
bour's conscience, and pinch them there. This measure gave
no such opportunity, and therefore it was displeasing : but it
was a good, a stupendous, a politic, a worthy measure, and as
such he defended it, and honoured the Government for intro•
ducing it. It had been said that it had not pacified Ireland,
who ever thought it would? but it was not a measure of to-
day, it was one to create a new and a better feeling, one whose
benefits would be felt in future generations, and whose boon
would then be permanent. He hoped the Hon. Member op-
posite (Mr. O'Connell) would excuse him—humble as he was—
in venturing to express his disappointment at the course he had
adopted. He had expected that party animosities would have
been thrown aside, and that the time had come when, after con-
ferring great benefits on Ireland, and obtaining for his country
redress for the injuries of ages, he would have assisted this
country in bestowing greater. Why did he not rise superior
to sectarian animosities? Why would he not now teach the
people over whom he held such indisputable control, lessons of
pacification, and refrain from that useless agitation which he
had so long carried on ? Why would he not help the Govern-
ment in effecting a measure which he (Mr. Escott) and the
Government and all admitted to be necessary for the benefit of
Ireland? He had gained many victories, why will he not
achieve one other more glorious, more ennobling than all, a
victory over himself.--( Hear.) Many had attacked the Go-
vernment for a desertion of their former principles; he, for
one, could see no such change ; in fact, there was a very close
analogy between this and other measures for the relief of the
community. One was opposed by the monopolist of religion,
the others by the monopolist of protection. He honoured them
because they had defied the taunts of bigotry, and in spite of
bigots and monopolists had urged those principles which were
sanctioned by liberty and truth, and the free and independent
voice of the United Kingdom.—( Hear, hear.) He said to
them "Go on and prosper."—(lronical cheers.) He could
not please everybody ; but he repeated, " go on and prosper ;"
their course was a noble one, and he trusted would meet not
only with the temporary approbation of the kingdom, but be
conducive to the prosperity and happiness of Ireland.
Mr. COLQUHOIJN would not oppose the present propo-
sition of the Government, though he could not support it on
the grounds submitted by the last speaker, and it would look
like satire if with him he called it a religious measure.—(A
laugh.) The Hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. B. Escott)
had addressed a speech which ought not to have been delivered
on those benches, far more fitting the Opposition, and whose
only seconder should have been the Member for Bath (Mr.
Roebuck). The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had at
least placed his measure on intelligible grounds, and proposed
to steer clear of religion. He (Mr. Colquhoun) doubted
whether any circumstances should justify such a measure ; but,
if they must have secular education, it was better not to aim at any
delusion of religion which would misguide all and reconcile none.
His only doubt was whether, by the improvement suggested
in the 14th clause, the bye-laws which had been inserted in the
Bill would lead to obnoxious religious instruction. He must
say that his Right Hon. Friend, who had stated on a former
occasion that the proposed system assimilated to the universi-
ties of Scotland, and still more to Trinity College, as re-
spected the Roman Catholic, had not been very fortunate in
his comparison. He (Mr. Colquhoun) thought the scheme
would afford a fair, good, and substantial education for the
middle classes in Ireland ; but to say it was a university system
of education was, in his opinion, perfectly ridiculous. The
Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department had said that
when he was at Oxford he had received no religious instruc-
tion ; now, when he was at College, he was obliged not only
to read sermons, hut occasionally to write them. But
he would not place on these special grounds the
difference existing between the university system of
England and the peculiarities of the system which was
about to be introduced into Ireland. He would ask what
was it that gave life and energy to the system of edu-
cation in England ? It was the sermons that were read or the
inculcation of the principles embodied in the thirty-nine
articles. It was the pious example of the teachers, who as
clergyman of the Church were respected and followed, not less
from their high' position than from their prudent instructions
and judicious behaviour. Look at the reformation that had
been worked in the great school at Rugby by Dr. Arnold. He
had effected there great changes by bringing to his work an
earnest and energetic mind, and this in combination with his
general demeanor had wrought powerfully as incentives to
imitation on the pupils. He was afraid under the proposed
system it would be impossible to prevent the junior scholars
from being tainted with a smattering of some religion. The
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Governmenthad alluded
to the proceedings at Belfast College, but he would tell him
that it was not the theological professors who had taught
Arian doctrines—no, it was the professors of Greek and che-
mistry and who had introduced Arian opinions into their lec-
tures. It was very well to provide that in case any of the
teachers employed in these colleges should mix up religious
matters with what they might teach they should be liable to be
discharged from their vocations. It was possible to hinder them
from openly employing religious discussion, but how could the
professor of Greek, or of astronomy, or of chemistry, be pre-
vented from conveying a significant allusion by means of
a look, or a shrug, or a jocular remark? He would remind the
Right Hon. Baronet that by this means an infidel professor
might introduce principles of a most obnoxious character, and
in the Bill as it stood the public were not safe from these re-
sults. To talk of the project as a collegiate education equal to
the present university systems of either England, Scotland, or
Ireland, was absurd in the extreme. If the principle was good
let religion be altogether abolished from all our educational in-
stitutions—let this unconservative element be got rid of, and
reduce all knowledge to Greek and mathematics.
The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government
had applied the scheme under the peculiar circumstances
in which Ireland was placed. His Right Hon. Friend, on a
former occasion, had stated that the present system and the
national system were the same. He (Mr. Colquhoun) con-
sidered that the difference was most material. One great dis-
tinction was, that the Government proposed to reserve to them-
selves the nomination of the professors. One of the principal
objections which he had always made to the national system of
education was, the power of appointing masters was practically
placed in the hands of those who were not immediately respon-
sible to the Government. In the Committee which sat in the
other House in 1837, on the National Education scheme, there
were elicited many instances of the incapacity and inaptness
of the persons who had been appointed masters. He would
take one instance, which really presented a most curious illus-
tration of the working of that system of education. In the
trial which had been quoted with so much humour by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Cork, it appeared that Timothy
Lynch, the schoolmaster, in conjunction with Mrs. Peebles,
had succeeded in humbugging the public as to his religion.
This man had at times as many as 180 children committed to
his charge, and he unblushingly admitted, in cross-examine-
tion on the trial, that he sometimes taught them to lie
and cheat, and deceive people. He was a national school-
master appointed by a rev. gentleman, and the counsel, in
his closing speech, alluded to the mistaken motives which had
led to the appointment of so great a rascal to such a situa-
tion. That was a specimen of a national schoolmaster, and
he had adduced it as a remarkable example of the unwhole-
some influence of those local agents to whom was committed the
responsibility of appointing masters for those national schools.
He trusted that her Majesty's Government would retain firmly
in their own hands the appointment of all professors, otherwise
he should look with extreme distrust as to any practical be-
nefit resulting to Ireland from the scheme.
Sir ROBERT Pe.EL confessed he really had not expected
to hear, on the present occasion, the name of Mrs. Peebles in-
troduced. He did not thick that the Hon. Gentleman, in
quoting Mrs. Peebles, had been very successful in showing
that anything wrong existed in the system of national educa-
tion in Ire'and, if out of 400,000 children who were instructed
on the national system, he could adduce only one instance of a
schoolmaster who was not competent to fulfil the duties
of that office._( Hear, hear.) He thought there was
no single civil or ecclesiastical institution which

could boast of so small an amount of vicious regulation : but
the subject of discussion had been departed from. The ques-
tion was not whether the Bill be now adopted, but it was the
proposition of the Noble Lord the member for Hertford, and
his Noble Friend who had proposed this motion—" That it is the
opinion of this House that in the establishment of colleges in
Ireland provision should be made for the religious instruction
of the pupils by means of lecture fees, till such time as private
benefacttons for that object may have taken effect." In
bringing forward that motion his Noble Friend had admitted

that the circumstances of liefandWe; difficult. He (Sir
Pee!) did not tender his plan of the Government as a perfect
and finished plan. He thought it would be a better plan if
religion were made the foundation of education. He wished
that the circumstances of the country admitted that in bringing
forward this plan the religion of the State could be introduced.
But looking at the peculiar condition of the country the infi-
nite diversity of opinion on religious matters that existed, he
thought it would be best for the country that the education
should be rather of a mixed character than an exclusive
one. His Noble Friend thought it was advisable
to extend the field of operations, and had said, if you establish
three professorships of theology, one of each to he connected
with the various religions—viz., one professor of the Established
Church, another of the Roman Catholic religion, and a third
who should inculcate Presbyterian doctrines—such a measure
would have met with his decided support. But he (Sir R.
Peel) would contend that if that principle was acted upon,
professors for every sect and religion, however minute their
distinctions, must be provided. He then proposed that pro-
vision for religious instruction should be made by means of
levying lees from students, until private beneficence should
afford the required instruction. He would make no perfect
provision for the theological professors, but he proposed an in-
adequate and insufficient means for the purpose. On account
of the diversity of religious opinion, the Government were un-
able to provide religious instruction that should satisfy the
various demands of the different religionists of Ireland.
The Government had given every sufficient inducement and
encouragement both to professors and students. Twenty
prizes, varying in value, would be offered to the students as in-

-7 " ".•••.• cry vaau •
centives to th—eir emulation.~ He believed that in Ireland there
was that deep religious feeling ex:sting among the Roman Ca.
tholies that induced them to act on the voluntary principle for
the support of the majority of their secular and religious insti-
tutions. It had been seen what had been done in this country
by voluntary contr.butions, and he was satisfied that the Roman
Catholics would continue to adhere to the voluntary principle.
The pupils, brought in contact with eminent professors, were
much more likely to imbibe religious feelings than if they were
left to the subjection of other influences. He was sure that the
parents, or the theological heads of the Church, would provide
much better for the religious instruction of the
students. Take Cork, for instance. Were they
to presume that the Rorinan Catholic clergy of that
city, or the wealthy Roman Catholics of that place,
would nr t provide for the spiritual instruction of the pupils at
the college proposed to be established there ? He was sure that

the religions instruction would be better provided for by trust-
ing to such resources, than by subjecting the students, as ad-
vocated by the Noble Lord (Lord Mahon). to a compulsory
payment on their entering the college.—( Hear, hear.) The
plan of the Noble Lord would require that a high sum for
religious instruction would have to be raised, either at the

I expense of the parents who sent children to those colleges, or
by the Church to which the students belonged. Now he would
ask what particular form of worship was to be observed, and
were the pupils to be compelled to give their attendance? To
apprehend the difficulties, let them look at the unfortunate
differences at present existing in the Church of England. Sup-
posing a professor giving theological lectures in the University
of Oxford, would it be right to force every student to attend
such lectures, irrespective of what particular part the
lecturer might take in the questions that were
agitating and exciting the Church ? Would it not he better
for parents and guardians to have the power of regulating the
attendance of those entrusted to their care, upon such theolo-
gical lectures.—( Hear.) So with the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. They (the Government) therefore made in this Bill
the attendance on theological lectures voluntary. Would they
enforce attendance on the part of the students, and if they
would not, would they enforce payment ? If they did, they
would, he was sure, i atroduce into the measure a great cause
of dissension and ill feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope that
the House, on due reflection, seeing all the difficulties of the
question, would leave theological instruction at these instittie
Lions to the operation of the voluntary principle. Any attempt
at a middle course between the two principles of religious en-
dowment or non-endowment would not be accompanied with
any corresponding advantage. He had been blamed with not
consulting the ecclesiastical authorities in the framing of this
Bill, but experience had convinced him that in that course he
had done right. Had he done otherwise it would not have
been likely that he could have agreed with any measure that
would have pleased such authorities.—( Hear, hear.) The
Roman Catholic prelates had insisted that the professors of
geology and anatomy should be Roman Catholics. Had the
Government submitted the measure to an authority of that
kind, would it have been right to adopt such a suggestion ?
( Hear, hear.) He never would have sanctioned such a prin-
ciple. He considered that anatomy might be very well learned
from a Protestant, or geology from a Roman Catholic, with-
out any danger to the faith of the student.—( Hear, hear. )
What would a philosopher of old think of our religion, had
he been told that the principles of abstract science could not
be learned without interfering with its doctrines. Should the
Roman Catholic youths of last century be told that they could
not be present at the lectures of John Hunter, a Protestant,
without endangering their faith, or that the students of the
present day should avoid the teachings of Sir Benjamin Brodie,
or Sir Philip Crampton, from the same cause.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he could inform the Right Hon.
Baronet that Sir Philip Crampton had, in the course of a lec-
ture he delivered in Dublin, introduced one of the grossest
calumnies against the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Were anything of that kind to take
place under the provisions of the Bill before the House the
professor would be removed.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped, how-
ever, the statement made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
respecting Sir Philip Crampton was not correct. If it were
so he (Sir R. Peel). at all events, had never heard of the fact
alluded to. That gentleman (Sir Philip Crampton) held the
highest character for scientific attainments and private charac-
ter, and he was persuaded would not have done anything cal-
culated to wound the religious feelings of his Roman Catholic
hrethrens
Mr. O'CONNELL admitted that Sir Philip Crampton was
a very eminent man, and a man most exemplary in all the
affairs of life; yet he certainly did accuse the head of the
Roman Catholic church with committing one of the grossest
acts of persecution. He (Mr. O'Connell) would, however,
say that a letter was published in reply to the Learned Gen-
tleman's accusation, showing diet the charge was without foun-
dation, on which Sir Phillip Crampton came forward and
admitted that he was in the wrong.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he • had mentioned that
Learned Gentleman's name because he was a gentleman
of most comprehensive mind and eminent for his scien-
tific acquirements. He (Sir Robert Peel) had never,
he must again say, heard of the circumstance to which
the Hcn. and Learned Gentleman alluded ; but, certainly, he
could easily conceive how a professor, speaking of Galileo,
should say something against the Roman Catholic Church,
and make use of remarks unpalatable to the believers in the
Roman Catholic faith. It was, therefore, possible that the
Learned Gentleman to whom allusion had been made, in the
course of his teachings, might have made, in elucidating the
history of the science of which he was a professor, some re-
ferences to an instance of persecution proceeding from the head
of the Roman Catholic Church ; still, he ( Sir Robert Peel)
would beg leave to suspend his judgment till he had seen the
lecture referred to. But, even admitting that the reference in
question had been made, he considered it might be perfectly
admissible with a sincere and studious desire to arrive at truth.
—( Hear, hear.) If such were the state of feeling in Ireland
that public men could not state a fact in reference to the
subject they were appointed to teach, without giving offence to
the Roman Catholics, he held it was necessary to lay the
foundation of a better system, in order, if possible, to put an
end to religious differences. The present measure afforded
better hope of future harmony than if they had placed the
appointment of the professors under the spiritual authority of
the Roman Catholic Church . He admitted that they were
open to the objection that they had not consulted the eccle-
siastical authorities. In a letter addressed to him by Arch-
bishop M'Hale, that Prelate thus spoke of the motives which
influenced the Gevernment. He said " They were se-
conding a selfish scheme of mercenary infidels that were
springing up in the country, who, under an affected zeal for
education, would not hesitate to advocate Mahometenism.
if they could obtain:access to the patronage of the Lords of
the Treasury." Suppose they had taken the opinion of Arch-
bishop M'Hale; he was afraid he would have incurred the risk
either of abandoning the plan altogether, or of treating the
opinions of Dr. M'Hale with disrespect.—( Hear, hear. )
Then with respect to the Presbyterians, he had received a few
days ago a letter from one very high in authority in that
Church, which he would read to them :--" Sir James Graham
appears to intimate that all religions will be represented in the
Colleges; but if he might express an opinion it would be that
:f there were one Unitarian or Roman Catholic professor over
the undergraduate course the GenerallAssembly would withdraw
all their students.—(Laughter.) Of the result I entertain no
doubt, that an Episcopalian profersor of the Church of Eng-
land might be borne, but the appointment of a Roman Catholic
or Unitarian professor of anatomy or astronomy would
lead to the withdrawal of every student." He felt perfectly cer-
tain that these ecclesiastical denunciations would be of no avail.
He believed that they would rather provoke a fair and liberal
spirit among men--a spirit more in consonance, as it appeared
to him, with the true genius of the Christian religion. He
thought that after the lapse of some time there would be no ob-
jection to receive instruction of a secular nature from professors
of eminence, whatever their religious creed might be, provided
there would be full security that no advantage would be taken
of that sacred office for the purpose of undermining the faith
of the young men who resorted there for instruction. With
respect to infidelity, the Roman Catholics had not stronger
reasons for opposing its progress than the Protestants.--
( Hear, bear, hear.) There could not not be a stronger
guarantee against the introduction of infidelity than the
fact that the power over these institutions lay in
a Protestant state. With respect to the insinuation that doc-
trines favourable to any particular class would be propagated,
he could not think that theological doctrines would be broached
in the shape of secular lectures on abstract science. His per-
suasion was that apprehensions on that head were entirely
groundless. Practical testimony had been borne to this by those
educated in Trinity College—conclusive testimony. The
Hoa. Member for Waterford, the Hon. Member fur Kerry,
and the Right Hen. and Learned Gentleman the Member
for Dungarvon had been educated in Trinity College,
Dublin, where.the lecturers belonged to the established Church,
with the exception of two, who were Catholics. What was their
testimony ?—And let it be recollected that Trinity College was
an almost exclusively Protestant institution. They had been
four years within its walls, but yet they felt bound to say that
from no professor had they ever heard a word disrespectful to
the Roman Catholic religion, had they ever witnessed a single
attempt to gain an advantage over Protestants or Roman
Catholics. If that was true in an exclusively Protestant
university, were not their apprehensions groundless respecting
new institutions not endowed with an exclusively Protestant
spirit as having that tendency—( Cries of "Hear, hear ")
where there was no test, and where, so far as secular
education was concerned, the principle was to give no
preference to any religious creed.—( Hear, hear.) Was it
right, he repeated, after the experience of Trinity College
Dublin, to credit such insinuations against her professors?
He did hope, from the petitions he had presented in approval
of the Government plan, that, notwithstanding the symptoms
of hostility manifested by such men as Dr. Murray and Dr.
Crolly, that the majority of the Roman Catholic Prelates would
ultimately lend their cordial co-operation, which he considered
would be most important to the success of the measure—he
did hope that the opinions of the great body of the laity would
in the end be favourable to it, and he would not despair that
the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland, when they felt assured
that no advantage would be taken of the system of secular in-
struction—that every opportunity would be afforded for reli-
gious instruction, according to the tenets of each Church
within the walls of the college—he did hope that, there being
such a manifest defect in the system of academical education
in Ireland, the plan was, on the whole, a great boon to the
country, calculated to carry further the inestimable blessings
founded on education, and to lay the foundation of a better
and a kindlier feeling among that youth, which was to form
the future manhood of Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Mr. O'CONNELL then rose, and the House was instantly
silent and attentive. He said--Sir, lam aware that we have
already avoided, in a great measure, the real point of dispute,
and travelled out of the proper line of argument in the recent
discussion ; otherwise I would have risen at an earlier period
to express my opinions in a few sentences regarding what I
consider to be the merits and demerits of the measure. Before
doing so, however, I must say a word or two respecting an al-
lusion that has been made to Sir Philip Crampton. I wish to
bear my humble testimony to the excellence of that man, and
to free myself from the supposition that I would have insinuated
anything derogatory to the character of that estimable and
amiable gentleman. He certainly mistook an hi .torical fact,
and in doing so was guilty of great injustice to the Roman
Catholic Church ; but at the time he did so he was unconscious
of what he stated being untrue ; and when Doctor Miley,
a Roman Catholic clergyman, represented the fact,
as they really were, he vindicated his high character
by retracting his assertion, that Rome had beers ini-
mical to the advancement of science. Ido not mean to detain
the House more than a few minutes; but I really would wish to
say a word or two about Galileo.—( Laughter.) The general
idea is that he was imprisoned for advocating the Copernican
system, but, in point of feet, he was only imprisoned by the
Inquisition for three days. So far from being sent to prison
for promulgating the doctrine of Copernicus, the Pope enabled
C srpernicus to publish his discoveries. Galileo was impri-
soned for a different thing—that the theory of the revolution
of the earth could be proved out of Scripture. He was told he
must not preach this doctrine, but was permitted to state that
there was nothing inconsistent in the Scriptures with the Co-
pernican theory ; for obstinacy Galileo was sent to prison for
three days ; and there is the entire history of that popular
legend so fondly cherished by those of an opposite creed, that
though Galileo was imprisoned the world goes round still.
But, turning to the Bill before us, Sir, I do not mean to ar-
raign the motives which actuated the present Government in
bringing forward this Bill. Almost all our actions admit of
the assignment of a motive, and I believe the motive of the
Government in bringing forward this Bill was to conciliate
Ireland. I freely admit that. The Hon. Member for Win-
chester, who paid me so high a compliment, and attributed so
much power to me, talked of what the Government had done
for Ireland, but I would like to know what other measure at all
favourable to lreland had been brought forward by the Go-
vernment, or now lies before either House of Parliament. I
dare say the Government will last all the longer for it.—( A
laugh.) Sir, I say Ireland is a frightful state. There
is most decided evidence of that fact in Lord Devon's
late Commission. In 1830, Spring Rice showed great distress
and destitution, but was full of hope that the condition of the
people would be speedily ameliorated. In 1834, the Poor-law
Commission stated the frightful fact that 2,300,000 of the
Irish people were in a state of destitution. The late Com-
mission stated that 4,500,000—m0re than one half of the
population—is in this condition, badly clad, badly housed,
badly paid. their food potatoes, their drink water, their bed
straw and perhaps a tattered blanket. That is the condition of
Ireland, and I am sorry that I should be obliged to trespass one
moment on your attention with a subject so full of horror.
The report of Lord Devon on this subject is stated to he in-
correct. If it is incorrect, it is that it is not higher charged,
and there is no hope of amelioration held out except by a
change of measures. Recollect, also, that the agrarian dis-
turbances in Ireland committed year after, the murders com-
mitted by the excited tenantry—tenantry, or their friends,
swept into the ditches, are on the increase. These disturbances are
at present extensive in the county of Roscommon, in Leitrim,
and in Antrim, and in Fermanagh two horrid murders
had been committed under this agrarian system, last

year. Are Gentlemen of the House of Commons aware that
this is the real situation of Ireland ? They cannot possibly
doubt it. The evidence is most conclusive. There cannot be
a doubt of it entertained by any one. And here you talk of
meting out a scholastic boon when the people are starving.—
( Hear, hear.) Oh, don't kick up a din—don't make a merit
of bringing in a Bill to benefit the Irish out of the capital
themselves have saved. This is a case for the Queen's Govern-
ment—.a case in which they should claim and obtain the assist-
ance of every honest man.—( Cheers.) When I addressed this
House last year, 1 asked the Queen's Government what
they intended to do for Ireland ? No matter what
might become of me. I asked what they intended to do
for Ireland ? They had schemes of their own for the
suppression of grievances ; but they did nothing for Ireland.—
( Hear, hear, and cheers.) I got no response then, and I
again ask them now, what they intend to do for Ireland ? I
feel exceedingly gratified by the kind attentions of the Hon.
Member for Winchester.—( Hear, hear, and Cheers.) He had
determined to give this measure his support wisely and deter-
minedly; and I do believe that, setting aside religious diffe-
rences, the English members have, with great manliness, taken
a liberal interest in a change of the system. But it will be of
no use to make eloquent speeches such as I listened to a few
minutes ago. You are listened to and have your triumph here ;
but all that won't do ; and therefore I say, that you,
the strongest Ministry which has yet existed, have all
in your own power. You excuse yourselves for not
having consulted the ecclesiastical party in Ireland
before bringing on this Bill. What harm would it have done
to have consulted them ? It would not have bound your opinion,
and, therefore, it could not have done any harm to have con-
sulted them. I tell you that you must introduce religion in
your measure or it will not be received by the people of Ireland.
We are essentially religious; and, however much we may differ
on points of religion, infidelity is unknown in Ireland; there-
fore I say, make religion the basis of your proceedings, and
you may test assured that you will have the protection of a
higher power; but do not flatter yourselves that you can in-
troduce any measures conciliating to the people of Ireland if you
exclude religion from your plan. Give Protestantism to Pro-
testants, give Catholicism to Catholics. I want nothing ex-
clusive for the Catholics that the Protestants have not an
equal right to ; but let the same justice be done to all. Intro-
duce religious instruction into your colleges, hut let the same
fair play be shown to all. Give them religious instruction and
the chances are, that that which is dominant—the charity of God
and lave to man—will predominate, and aided, by fair play, and
justice will give a prospect of effecting that reconciliation so
desired by all.—(Cheers.) If you fail in this scheme of reli-
gious education—l say, that even if you fail—you will have
fallen in a majestic attempt to inculcate Christian duty ; but if
you make the attempt in the right direction, I fear not for the
result. It has been shown that. the Catholic Bishops of Ireland
have pronounced your Bill to he dangerous and immoral, and
though you may treat their decision with levity, remember that
six millions of the people of Ireland treat it with respect.—
(Cheers.) Recollect, that when you come to talk of educating
the Catholics, they pay attention to the decision of their bishops.
The bishops tell you that your scheme is dangerous and immo-
ral, and they wished to prevent its working out an improper
purpose. They had two Protestant professors of divinity in
the College of Belfast, one a Unitarian, and one what they
termed the Orthodox. If you want protection iu the Presby-
terians they have it, but the Roman Catholic Bishops require
the means of protecting themselves. You tell me that if the
Professor preaches infidelity you can dismiss him, but the Ca-
tholic Bishop says we will run no such risk. These are the
grounds on which we stand, and the objection is not an imagi-
nary on. The Protestant professors in Belfast have been
accused of introducing into their lectures matters favourable to
Unitarianism, and thi' danger is not an imaginary one.
Sir R. PEEL, as we understood.—Which of the professors
did so ?
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Professors give, no doubt, their
own views in their lectures. I mean the chair of moral
philosophy.
Mr. COLQUHOUN made a remark which was inaudible
in the gallery.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The ecclesiastical teacher and pro-
fessor of Greek. Now, if the fact be so, what an excellent
argument might be used in this House, " Do you speak of the
Professor of Greek? oh, he is only a teacher of languages."
Are the Catholic Bishops to be subject to the caprices of a
Minister? Have they time to examine into the qualifications
of the professor of anatomy, or of any of the sciences. The
Catholic prelates are now assembled, and you can communi-
cate with them. At present they have denounced your Bill
as dangerous and criminal, and no Roman Catholic will be
found to support it. You deserve credit for the manner in
which you carried out another measure respecting Ireland,
and though I were not here to express my gratitude, I cannot
conceal that that measure was dictated by fair play and justice.
Sir, it has been well said, " that education is power." But it
is a power of that kind that we cannot be too jealous of the
hands in which it is placed.—( Cheers.) Ido not blame those
who think that a mixed education is the better.—( Hear, hear. )
But I think that in such cases as yon choose to make the ex-
periment, the religion of all should be respected.---( Hear,
hear.) I think that all parties could meet in a mixed educa-
tion of general philosophy and physical science, if the religion
of each was respected.—( Hear, hear.) There is one
part of this project which appears to many to be
very formidable, and especially to me who am a thorough
Radical.—(Cheers and a laugh.) But, as we have always
found that the smuggler is the best corrector of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, so do I think that the encouragement given
by this measure to contraband teaching will bring the Govern-
ment to see the necessity of making religious teaching legiti-
mate and authorised.—( Laughter and cheers.) I have done.
I did not intend to trespass upon the House.—( Hear, hear. 1
It is my wish to render this measure such as would ensure
success.—( Cheers.) I think that you cannot expect to make
it suosessful, unless you attain the support of the Catholic
Bishops, who have six millions of the people under their cure.
—( Hear.) I think the Bill may be made useful. But I think
there ought to be no pressing of the Committee just now.
I trust that we may have a few days' delay, which can make
no difference of any moment, whereas the delay would have
mportant effects.—( Hear.) It is now past eleven o'clock. and
I trust the Committee will not be pressed. If it is, I will
divide the House. lam desirous of taking part in every mea-
sure which may so improve the Bill as to enable me to give
it my support.—( Hear.) I would de anything to put an end
to the'disaffection in that country.—(Much cheering.) But,
Sir, there is great physical suffering in that country, which
may lead to the most frightful evils, before many of us here
shall have been months in our graves. ( The Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen sat down amidst loud cheering. )
Sir R. INGLIS had not intended to trouble the House,
nor would he have done so but for the statement of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman respecting the case of Galileo. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that it was by the as-
sistance of the Sovereign Pontiff that Galileo was enabled to
establish the truth of the Copernican system. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman must have counted upon the ignorance
of the Houre when he made that statement.—( Cheers and
laughter.) He must have thought that no one but himself
ever knew the history of Galileo—(Cheers and a laugh)—or
that if other Members had ever known that history they must
by this time have forgotten it.—(A laugh.) The Hon.
Gentleman ascribed to Leo the Fifth the power of punishing
and of afterwards assisting Galileo ; but the fact was that
Galileo was imprisoned in 1615, and Leo the Fifth did not
commence to reign until 1645.—( Hear, hear.) He thought
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman trusted to the luck of the
moment, and relied to the absence of historial memory from the
House.—(Cheers and laughter.) Any one who knew the
history •f Galileo would recollect that it was not because his
doctrine was opposed to the Scriptures that he was punished,
but because they were opposed to the Church.—(Cheers.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that Galileo was in
prison but three days, instead of three years. The time made
little difference ; but the fact was, that Galileo was imprisoned
in 1615, and he was still there in 1617.—(Cheers and a laugh.)
The Right Hon. Baronet again apologised for having risen at
all, and thanked the House for its indulgence.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL begged leave to explain. The Right
Hon. Baronet had misunderstood him, or had not heard him,
for he had said that Pope Leo V. was a Cardinal at the time
when Galileo was imprisoned.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose amidst loud cries of" Divide."
He was disposed to regard the Government measure as one of
great benefit to the people of Ireland. The assertion of the
Hnn. Member (Mr. O'Connell) that the people of Ireland
were bound by the opinions and doctrines of the Roman Catholic
Bishops was an aspersion on the people of that country, who
instead of being held in such a domination by any man, or any
body of men, whatever might be their influence, ought to act
and think for themselves. He was of opinion that the Land-
lords and Tenants Bill, in its present form, would not satisfy
the wants of the people of Leland. He should support the
measure of the Government.
Sir A. BROOKE wished to correct a statement which had
been made by the Hon. Member (Mr. O'Connell), that two
murders had recently been committed in the county of Fer-
managh. Not only had no murder been committed recently,
but within the memory of man no murder had been caused
through agrarian disturbances. He did not mean to say that
there had not been threatening notices, but during the last
twenty years he did not believe there had been either an agra-
rian outrage or a murder.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord C. HAMILTON said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
O'Connell) during a great part of his address wished to show
that he was doing the bidding of others, and said that all he
wanted was fair play. lie (Lord C. Hamilton) was of opi-
nion that many measures which had been proposed for
the benefit of Ireland, had been opposed and
ultimately defeated by these whom they were intended to be-
nefit. If the whole conduct of the Government had not
evinced fair play, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman, when he
next addressed the House, would give his definition of it. He
admitted that he had correctly pictured the mserable condi-
tiee of the people, but it should be borne in mind that the Ro-
man Catholic Church received a revenue, in proportion to
their number, larger than any other country, and it should be
also recollected that large sums were raised from the popula-
tion to aid that agitation which the Hon. Member thought
necessary. He was of opinion that the choice of those to edu-
cate youth should be left to their parents and guardians.
Mr. HOPE said that it was his opinion that as this amend-
ment was opposed entirely to the Bill, it was entitled to the
support of those who opposed the measure.
Mr. SHAW said that he would feel great reluctance in op-
posing the motion of his Noble Friend. He could perceive
no difference between endowing their theological professors
out of the Consolidated Fund and obliging them to he main-
tained by means of compulsory fees. He should therefore op-
pose the amendment.
Mr. HINDLEY rose, amidst loud cries of "Oh, oh," and
" Divide." He said, that having presented 1,200 petitions
against the Maynooth grant, as opposed to the voluntary sys-
tems, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork having as-
serted in his place in that House, on a former occasion, when
that grant was opposed by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Lincoln, that if pressed to a division he would vote against it,
on the voluntary principle, he did not think that he was now
justified in stating that those petitions had raised a senseless
clamour. He desired to know if the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman still adhered to that opinion.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he certainly included the peti-
tions presented by the Hon. Gentleman, and he could produce
fifty of them to-morrow, containing the most outrageous calum-
nies against the Roman Catholic religion.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 49
Against it ...........

Majority -140
On our re-admission to the gallery we found
Mr. WYSE on his legs, stating that he was willing to post-
pone a motion which he had on the paper for that evening re-
specting the professorships of the intended colleges, till the
bringing up of the report in the Committee. -
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that the amendments would be
printed, and that all further proceedings on the measure would
be postponed till that day week.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the suggestion of the
Hon. Gentleman a good one, and hoped the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet would accede to it.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he was perfectly ready to
go on, but in compliance with the wish which had been ex-
pressed, he had no objection to accede to the application.
LUNATIC ASYLUM AND PAUPER LUNATICS
BILL.
Lord ASHLEY moved the second reading of this Bill.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, after a period of ten years, it
had been proposed that this system should be altered. Five
years had been proposed, but he thought that ten years would
be a better period.

Mr. BARNEBY was only anxious that there should be a
complete fulfilment of the object.—( Order, order.)
Sir JAMES GRA HAM was only anxious for a fair state-
ment of the case, and if any special case were to be made out,
it might be considered when the Bill went into Committee.