The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-06 00:00:00

stage he would be prepared with an instruction, in order to
effect the amendment desired, and the necessity of which he
clearly saw.—( Hear, hear. )
After a long and desultory conversation upon verbal amend-
ments, the clause was agreed to.
On clause 6 being proposed,
Mr. HENLEY suggested that some modification should be
nude in it by the Government, as it was of a most stringent
character.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM agreed to omit certain words
-allery), the edffecertieosf.owfeha,icaHh.
ewaro,uhldeabre.,g)reatly
ti aictelltirgtM the (Inaudible in the
lenses 7, it, 9, and
.a—gre:c.d.'9to, at si fr
JO, without dlseilssidri:
On clause II being proposed;
powheirgietti, which e teh C
il‘isliro.n\e\r'
illegitimateYs,NofNaEppLrlsenltSicoibnjgectedto the
children,
tbheomtsicehromraoi districts.properlyre
exercised by the poor-law guardians in
it
Sir HOWARTJ DOUGLAS said he had received from his
constituents instructions to object to this clause, on the same
groands as those stated by the last speaker—tamely, that the
gtiardiana upon the spot were the best judges of what ought t,./
he done for these Unhappy children.
Sir C. NAPIER, on behalf of the parish of Marylebone, also
objected to this power being vested It: the Central Com-
missioners.
Two other Hon. 'Members, whsse names we could net learn,
also strongly opposed the clause.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he might be wrong in having pro-
owed the clause, but no oPC, he was happy to nnd, impugned
his motive in doing so. He Wes afraid that in those local
boards of guardians, local interests Wolld be, consulted at the
sapense of the persons about to be bound atit: Under the
MintSrs and Celleries Act, certain restrictions were Imposed
against binding yoUtlg children to miners and colliers, and he
thought that, in the present Bill, the same restrictive power
should be exercised. It could not be denied diet in local boards
of guardians there might be a natural though selfish &steel to
economise, even at the expese of the poor little helpless childrett
whom they might be willing to bind into a distant, and,
perhaps, incommodious situation, in order to rid themselves,
and their district of the probable expense of providing for them
in future. What he wished to impose was not any Unnecessary
or unfair restriction on the board of guardians, but only to '
give to the Poor-law Commissioners a power over
the appointments- of the board, which would tend
towards the benefit of the poor apprentices. He had
been accused of endeavouring to increase the powers of the
Poor-law Commissioners, and giving them an arbitrary control
over the poor. He did not think he lay open to this charge,
as he had been always most anxious- to give the Commissioners
only such power as would counteract the, perhaps, too par-
simonious tendency or neglect of the boards of guardians.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER hoped the Right lion. Baronet
would not withdraw the clause, which he considered one of thc
most useful in the whole Bill. He believed that one of the
greatest evils of the present measure was its neglect of proper
provisions for parochial apprentices. He thought that a power
vested in the Poor-law Commissioners was absolutely neces-
sary in order to protect poor apprentices, and have them pro-
perly bound and properly treated.
Colonel WOOD would not wish to restrict the powers of
the Poor-law Commissioners ; but he thought the imposition
of this duty upon them was unnecessary. For there was no
provision in the clause to prevent what the Right Hon. Gentle-
man considered so great an evil—viz. the binding out of ap-
prentices in distant parishes.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose and said, lie attached consi-
derable importance to the penalty which would be enacted in
this clause, and which he trusted would prevent the abuses re-
garding apprentices which existed in the present measure.
Mr. DUNCOMBE objected to the large powers conferred
on the Poor-law Commissioners by the provisions of this
clause. They were useless besides, for how could the Com-
missioners at Somerset House be supposed to know what would
be moat beneficial to a child in a remote part of the kingdom ?
Surely those who lived en the spot, and who were fathers
of families themselves, ought to be the best judges.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that in order to meet the objections
of the Hon. Gentleman, and of other Hon. Members who
might be disposed to agree with him, he would amend the
clause, so that it would give the Commissioners power only to
prescribe the terms and conditions of the binding.
Mr. DUNCOMBE was opposed to all increase of power to
the Commissioners, and thought in whatever shape it was con-
ferred upon them, it must be looked upon with alarm.
Colonel SIBTHORP expressed himself to a similar effect.
He looked upon the power the Poor-law Commissioners at
present possessed with feelings of jealousy and alarm.
Mr. WAKLEY hoped the clause weuld not be altered or
amended. Nothing was more desirable than that there should
be some °niers, who would be responsible for the proper
treatment of those helpless creatures—parochial apprentices.
Their condition at present was one of absolute slavery. For this
reason alone he would give the clause his most unqualified and ar-
dent support. The present law did not provide a sufficient protec-
tion for the ill treatment and neglect of these poor creatures.
The masters at present, in most instances, sought them only
for the purpose of making money by them, and, provided they
could effect this object, they cared little about the means
Parish apprentices were, in many instances, employed
from five in the morning until nine at night, and, in
addition to this, they were frequently badly fed, badly
clothed, and badly lodged. And what redress had
these children? It might be said they could go before a
magistrate. Why, he (Mr. Wakley) had on more than one
occasion, attempted to interfere with police magistrates on be-
half of these poor creatures, but his applications had not only
been treated with neglect but with contempt. To be sure the
overseer went to the house of the master, and when he did, he
was ushered into the best parlour, and the boy was brought in
in his holiday suit, and before his master and mistress, and
with the fear of the birch rod before his eyes, answered those
queries which the overseer put to him.—( Hear hear.) " Have
you any complaint to make, my dear? Don't be afraid to speak."
Of course the poor child said " Na, Sir," and thus terminated
this little farce. The overseer went away, and the boy re-
turned to his drudgery.—( Hear, hear.) Under these circum-
stances, he thought it absolately necessary that there should
be some restrictive and unprejudiced influence exercised in the
binding of these poor children. The House was bound to
look to them ; they were the orphans of the State; anti he
felt grateful to the Government for introducing the present
clause.

Lord J. MANNERS said that he had heard enough to con-
vince him that the Poor-law Commissioners had exercised the
power for the benefit, and not for the oppression, of those who
were not able to defend themselves. lie should give his cordial
support to the clause.
Mr. COLQUHOUN wished to know whether the Com-
missioners would be empowered to limit the hours of labour
for children.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said there was no dif-
ficulty at all about this, as the Commissioners could insert
clauses in the indentures of apprenticeship, limiting the hours
of ldbour for the children.

Mr. HAMILTON supported the clause.
Mr. ESCOTT said, that if they gave the Commissioners
the power of limiting the hours of labour for children to a cer-
tain time, they would be adopting a principle which the House
had already refused to sanction in the Factory Bill.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD opposed the clause.
After a few words from Mr. P. BORTHWICK, the Com-
mittee divided—
For the clause
Against it
Alajority — 128
Clause 12 was then proposed, and after a short discussion,
agreed to.
On clause 13 being proposed, which regulates the number of
votes each rate-payer shalt possess,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved an amendment, the effect of
which was to abolish the system of plurality voting, and to
Place the owner of property and the rate-payer, and all rate-
payers, on the same tooting ; namely, to give each party
one vote.

Sir J. GRAHAM defended the present system, and said
that he was fortified in his opinion by a recent decision to which
the Legislature had come on this vary subject. This kind of
voting had been sanctioned by the Legislature in the last
session: of Parliament in the Irish Pour-law Bill. He did
not think it would be consistent with justice that the occupier
of property rated at 1001. a year should be placed an the same
footing, with respect to voting, as the occupier of property
rated at 5001.
The Committee then divided. The numbers were_
For the amendment .........
Against it .
. _ _

Majority for the clause
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
On the reading of clause 14,
Mr. HAWES said that the rate-payers ought to have the
ower of impeaching proxies in the election of guardians, and
_e suggested to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham)
:o introduce a proviso to that effect. Ho was himself prepared
with such a proviso.
Sir JA 11ES GRAHAM recommended the Hon. Gentleman
to bring forward his proviso, as a distinct clause, at a future
stage, or to be added at the end of the Bill.
Mr. HAWES would act upon the suggestion of the lion.
Baronet, and gave notice that ho would propose the clause on
bringing up the report.
Mr. HINDLEY admitted that the clause, as introduced by
the Right Hon. Baronet was a great improvement in the Bill.
Captain PECHELL would admit that this was a very use-
ful modification of the Bill. But neither this clause, nor the
one proposed by the Hon. Member for Finsbury would meet
his views, and he would move that the clause should be
omitted altogether.
Mr. T. DUNCONIBE admitted that the clause was a great
improvement; but he was opposed to the system of proxies
altogether, except it were in the case of female rate-payers.—
( A laugh.) He had received communications from Gravesend,
showing the abuses to which the system was liable. The
owners of property were very few ; but the collector of
the rents held the whole of the proxies, and thus had the nomi-
nation of the guardians for the two great parishes of which that
union consisted. He would not object to the clause if the
latter part of it, which gave such a power to the collectors of
rents, were omitted.
Mr. HINDLEY suggested that the proxies should be re-
newed every six months.
Mr. HAWES thought that the time allowed for notices
should be extended to more than fourteen days.
Sir J. GRAHAM thought that it would lead to much incon-
venience to give a greater time than was necessary fur due in-
quiry and the detection of fraud.
Mr. WAWN moved an amendment for the omission of the
words in brackets, which gave power to stewards and land-agents
to hold proxies.
On this aniend►nent the Committee divided,
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
On the reading of the fifteenth clause relative to the annual
election of guardians,
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that he had received a
letter from a gentleman, a member of one of the largest boards
of guardians in the kingdom, suggesting several alterations in
the mode of electing guardians. lie did not mean to propose
any amendment, but pressed upon his Right Him. Friend to
consider the recommendations of his correspondent.
On the 16th clause being proposed,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD proposed that it be omitted.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the omission of the dame 45
Against its omission .........
Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 17, 18, and 19 were agreed to, after which
Sir J. GRAHAM moved that the Chairman should report
progress, and ask leave to sit again on Thursday at half-past
four o'clock.

157

The Militia Ballot Suspension 13i11 went through Com-
mittee.

The Vagrants Removal Bill went through Committee.
The Stock in Trade Bill went through Committee.

The Turnpike Acts Continuance went through Omn-
mittee.

The Customs Duties (Isle of Man) Bill was read a third
time, and passed.
The Assessed Compositions Bill was read a second time,
and was ordered to be committed on Monday aext.
REGISTRY OF SEAMEN.

Mr. S. HERBERT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend and consolidate the laws relating to merchant-seamen,
and for keeping a register of seamen. The Bill was brought ►n
and read a first time.
THE IRISH CHURCH. .
Mr. P. BUTLER moved for a return of vacancies which
had recently arisen in the Established Church of Ireland, and
of the nmes of the partied appointed to fill them.