The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-02 00:00:00

JECTS.

Mr. M. MILNES moved for copies of all orders of Council
under the Foreign Jurisdiction Act, and of any correspondence
that has taken place between :the Government and Foreign
Powers on the subject of criminal jurisdiction over British
subjects abroad.
BANKRUPT RETURNS.

Mr. W ATSON moved far the following returns:—Return
of all sums of money received and paid to the fund called
" The Secretary of Bankrupts' Account," since the passing
and under the statute 5 and 6 Vic., c. 122 ; a ith a return of
the names of all persons who have been paid by salary, compen-
sation, or in any other manner, and with the sums charged on
the said fund, and all charges allowed on the same fund.—
Return of a copy of every claim for compensation made to the
Lord Chancellor by each person, as the clerk of the enrol-
ments, deputy of such clerk, comptroller of the har aper, riding
clerk, six clerk, sworn clerk, waiting clerk, agent, or record
keeper, under the statute 5 and 6 Vic. c. 103, s. 12.—Return
of a copy of any order made by the Lord Chancellor for com.
rensation under the statute 5 and Vic. c. 103.—Return of all
compensations awarded or allowed to officers in the Courts of
justice, under the statutes 11 Geo. 4, and Will. 4, c. 58 ;
stating the names of the persons, tue amount of compensation,
and the office in respect of which the compensation was awarded
and allowed.—Return of all sinecure offices, and offices entirely
performed by' deputy in the Court of Chancery, and the
Superior Courts of Common Law at Westminster; stating the
names of the holders of such offices, and the amount of salaries
received for the last three years.—Return of the various duties
performed by the Masters of the Courts of Queen's Bench,
Common Pleas, and Exchequer. at Westminster.—Agreed to.
MISSION TO SHOA.

Dr. BOWRING moved for a copy of the correspondence
relating to the late Mission to Shoa.
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR moved for copies of any
correspondence that had taken place between the Poor. law
Commissioners and the guardians of the Glastonbury Union,
relative to the dismissal of Mr. George Newman from the
medical superintendence of the poor in that union.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said he had to put a question
of great importance to the Noble 1.41 rd, the Secrtary for the
Colonies. He wished to ask his Noble Friend, whether the
course pursued by Sir Charles Metcalfe in Canada had the
concurrence of her Majesty's Government?
Lord STANLEY said he was not at all sorry that his Hon.
Friend had put the question to him, because he believed that,
in a matter of this kind, it was essential that there
should be no mistaken impression upon the public mind.
He had no hesitation in saying that the policy pursued by Sir
Charles Metcalfe in Canada had the entire approbation of her
Majt sty's Government. Theselection of Sir Charles Metcalfe—
a man of tried abilities, and known liberal views in politics—as
Governor of Canada, was quite in keeping with the course
which her Majesty's Government wished to pursue in that coun-
try. But although Sir C. Metcalfe went out to carry out the views
of the Government at home, yet he was equally determined to
resist any demands inconsistent with the dignity of the Crown.
He should conclude by saying that Sir C. Metcalfe, in pursuing
this course, would have the entire support of the Home Govern-
ment.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to ask whether it was the
intention of the Government to communicate to the House the
instructions sent out by the Government at home to Sir Charles
MetcalfeA or the correspondence which had taken place be-
tween the Government and the Colonial .office.

Lord STANLEY said that no communication such as the
Noble Lord alluded to had been sent to Sir Charles Metcalfe,
but at the proper time, if the Noble Lord chose to put the
question, be would explain the course pursued by Sir Charles,
when he would have to satisfactorily vindicate it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, when
Mr. ROEBUCK called the Noble Lord to order. It was
not right to allow a conversation of this kind when no other
person could make an observation.
Mr. HAWES wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet, the
First Lord of the Treasury, if he would have any objection to
lay upon the table copies of the papers connected with the re-
cent treaty concluded with the Brazils?
_ _

Sir R. PEEL said, in answer to the Hon. Gentleman's
question, he felt bound to say that the treaty was about to
expire in about a year, and during the present state of the
matter he did not deem it consistent with his public duty to
order the returns to which the Hon. Gentleman alluded.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS.

In answer to a question from Sir George Grey.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that he did not ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Motion of which he had given
notice, but he could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that
during the recess the subject had been under the anxious con-
sideration of the Government, and at a very early period of
the session a measure would be proposed upon the subject.—
( Hear, hear. )
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.

Sir GEORGE GREY begged to ask the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet another question :.—Whether it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to propose in this Session any measure
for the improvement of the Ecclesiastical Courts ; and if so,
whether that measure would be introduced in this or the other
House of Parliament.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that his Noble Friend the
Lord Chancellor had announced in the other House his inten-
tion to bring in a Bill upon the subject at an early period.
THE CASE OF MR. BONHAM.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that as he saw the Hon. Mem-
ber for Exeter had just taken his place, he wished to ask
him a question relating to a notice given by the Honourable
Gentleman, which, it not explained, might have an injurious
effect upon the reputation of an Honourable Friend of his.
He alluded to the notice which the Hon. Member for Exeter
had given of a motion on the Bth of February, for an address to
her Majesty to dismiss F. R. Bonham, Esq., from the office
of Storekeeper of the Ordnance.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir
R. Peel) wished to enquire whether the Hon. Gentleman
would object to state what were the grounds of his motion ?
Mr. DIVETT said that when he gave the notice he had no
intention of injuring the reputation of Mr. Bonham ; but, on
the contrary, he sincerely hoped that gentleman would be able
to give a satisfactory explanation of his conduct on the occa-
sion of which he (Mr. D.) thought he had reason to complain.
As a preliminary he must state, that though undoubtedly he
was influenced by public considerations in bringing the subject
forward, the complaint which he had to make referred not to
Mr. Bonham's official position, but to the functions IA hick
he performed in the position which he held with refe-
rence to the Carlton Club, and the Conservative party.—
( Great laughter.) Gentlemen might laugh ; they pro-
bably knew Mr. Bonham's functions much better
than he did; but undoubtedly his functions appeared to him of
such a questionable character that he thought it essential that
the Government should learn what they were.—( Cries of
"Oh ! oh !") He was not aware that he had said anything to
cause that interruption. As he had already said, he most sin•
cerely hoped that Mr. Bonham would be able to give a satis-
factory answer to the charge which he had to make against
him.—(Hear, hear.) That charge, he would now state, related
to his conduct in reference to the last London election. The
charge was, that Mr. Bonham, either through himself or guided
by others, had made representations which, if not intentionally
fraudulent, were certainly reprehensible. He had been
very sorry to find it necessary to make any complaint of
that nature —( Hear, hear.) He bad even thought of writing
to the Right Hon. Baronet to know whether he justified
such a mode of carrying on the business of elections, but he
had ultimately thought that it would not be desirable to pursue
such a course. He thought, however, that as the matter was
one affecting the purity of election and the state of the Parlia-
mentary representation, it was his duty to bring it under the
consideration of the House. If the Hun. Gentleman wished
him to state the case then, instead of making the
deliberate motion which he had put on the books, he
was prepared to do so. At the same time he must state that
there were two or three letters on the subject, which he had
not then in his possession, and the reading of which was es-
sential to its proper elucidation.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. PEEL said he had no wish to elicit from the Hon.
Gentleman a general statement of the transactions to which he
referred, he had only wished to ascertain whether the motion
was grounded on some official act of misconduct, independently
of any electioneering question.
Mr. DIVETT repeated, that it did not relate to Mr. Ron-
ham's misconduct in his official position. It referred not to his
ostensible, but to his real position in relation to the Govern-
ment.—(lronical cries of Hear, Iv-

—.At-, hear. )
THE PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS.
Mr. WALLACE said that in accordance with the notice
which he had given last night he would now move that the
Standing Order of the House which prevented Members from
speaking on petitions be read.
The Clerk then read the Standing Order.
RIGHT OF PETITION.

Mr. WALLACE rose so bring forward, according to notice,
a motion—" That the practice of the House on the presenta-
tion of petitions complaining of the grievances of the people be
altered, so that in future petitions may be publicly discussed at
the time of their presentation ; and that any rule or order of
this House which controls or prohibits the discussion of the pail

Lions of the people at the time of their presentation be rescinded."
The sessional order on this subject having been read by the
Clerk at the table, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to say that
it was his intention to move, in conformity with the terms of
the motion he had just read to the House, that that order be
rescinded ; but as the question had been often discussed, he did
not feel it necessary: to occupy much of the public time
in addressing himself to it. The people of this country,
however that House might frame their regulations,
could not bring themselves to understand why, when their pe-
titions were sent up, they should, by a rule, in the making of
which they bad no part, and the practice of which they
disapproved, be merely mentioned, but not discussed.
To pursue this plan would be to make petitions obso-
lete.—(Laughter.) During two of the years he had had
the honour of a seat in Parliament, he referred to the years
1832 and 1833, the petitions of the people were discussed iully,
and this mode of doing business gave great satisfaction to the
entire c untry. As might be supposed, the discontinuance of
so wholesome and popul r a practice had an effect exactly the
reverse. The people now were led to believe th t Members
received their petitions, just read their object to the House.
and that they were then thrown under the tables, or jammed
into bags and large sacks. Now those who knew what
importance the people attached to this their ancient right of
petition, should pause before they did anything that might
lead to a distrust in or a discountenance of the prac-
tice. He (Mr. Wallace) did not deny that the former
practice was attended at times with considerable
trouble ; but a distinction might be made were there any in-
clination shown by the House to do away with the present
system. In the session of 1839, a division took place on this
subject, and the numbers were for the continuance of the pre-
sent practice 105 ; and against its continuance 50 only. In
the session of 1842, the subject was twice before the House—
once being brought forward by himself, and once by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe), for the division
on his own motion he had forty-three votes with him, and one
hundred and eighty-three against him. In that year there was
a very particular remark of that House, in consequence of the
motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Duncombe.) He (Mr.
Wallace) brought forward the question in that year
on the same principle that he did now—the inherent
right of the people—a right which that House
had not constitutionally the power to wrest away. But his
Hon. Friend ( Mr. Duncombe) had broached the subject as
connected with the question of taxation ; viz., that at all
events, when matters of taxation were petitioned about, they
should have the right to discuss those petit►ons—that therein, at
all events, the old and healthy practice should be restored.
On the occasion to which he referred in 1842, the division
showed 136 votes in favour of the motion of the lion. Member
for Finsbury, whereas there were only 167 against it ; then
the motion was lost, even in a Conservative Parliament, by
only 31 votes. The people out of doors had no opportunity of
ever seeing their petitions after they were presented. They
were sent to the Committee on Petitions, who dealt with them
as they pleased, sometimes reading them in whole, and some-
tim es reading mere extracts. The only way left to a representa-
tive of informing his constituents what had become of their
petition, was by stating that he had presented such a peti-
tion on such a day. But the :people out of doors did
not understand this, and they found great fault
in being dealt with in such a manner. The rule that indivi-
dual petitions might be printed with the votes, was overborne
by other rules. On two occasions—one last session, and the
other in the preceding session—he was forced to have two
petitions undiscussed, because he could not find a day to
bring them forward, though he had watched every opportunity.
One of those he got printed with the votes, but the other he
did not, because it referred to the character of a judicial person.
He would therefore call on the House to depart from the
stringent rule by which the petitions of the people were kept
in a manner secret. The people could not purchase the votes
of the Houes, in which those things were noticed, and the
Members were not allowed to send them to their constituents.
He believed that the rescinding of that rule would be exceed.
ingly gratifying to the country. Having stated the nature of
the case which he had to bring before the House, and it having
been stated fully twice before during the present Parliament,
he had merely to observe that, if this proposal should be re-
jected, the people would have a right to conclude that the majority
of that House were determined to do all that in them lay to
prevent the people having any knowledge of the manner in
which the business of that House was -conducted. He should
certainly divide the House upon his motion.
Dr. BOWRING fully agreed with the observations which
had fallen from his Hon. Friend, and he should therefore feel
great pleasure in seconding the motion. It could not escape
the observation of Hon. Gentlemen, that there was a growing
indisposition on the part of the people for petitioning that
House, and he, therefore, cordially seconded the motion.
Sir ROBERT PEEL felt a little surprised at the observa-
tion of the lion. Gentleman who last addressed the House,
that there was a growing disposition to withhold petitions from
the House of Commons. He (Sir R. Peel) thought he was
then speaking from memory—that duriug the last year 25,0, 0
petitions wa. presented; and if the Hon. Gentleman would
compare that number with the number presented during the
preceding year, he would not find that there was any disposition
on the part of the people to withhold petitions from the House
of Commons. Did the Hon. Gentleman recollect the petitions
that were pressnted with respect to education, when the Educa-
tion Bill was under consideration last year. If he did so, he ( Sirß.
Peel) did not think that in that case any proof would be dis-
covered of a want of disposition, on the part of the people, to
withhold petitions when they had any objections to public
measures proposed. He thought he had heard from Honour-
able Gentlemen that the result of these petitions was
a conclusive proof of the efficacy of the right of petitioning.
The question was not what would most suit the personal conve-
nience of Members, but as to which practice would be most
conducive to the proper conducting public business. Some
years ago it was usual to enter into debate on petitions, as it
was then held that it was very useful, because many Members
of Parliament. who distrusted their own powers, and were un-
willing to enter into a general discussion had thus an opportu-
, pity of speaking on petitions. He (Sir R. Peel) must say, that
the confidence of the House had very much increased
and now there was no such difference on the part of individual
Members to address the House.—(Renewed aughter.)—
In point of fact the practice had grown up of having debates
on questions of great public importance, which lasted six or
seven days, and thus the opportunity of addressing the House
was afforded; and he thought that a speech made a
greater impression when delivered in the course of
a consecutive discussion, than when delivered at an unexpected
time on the occasion of presenting ape ition. This subject was
brought under the notice of the house when the late Govern-
ment was in power, and when Mr. Abercrombie filled
the chair which the iresent Speaker now so worthily
occupied ; and he begged to remind the House of the rule then
laid down. The impression was so great, of the inconvenience
of occupying the early part of a day fixed for an im-
portant public discussion by the discussion of petitions, that
the generalsense of the house was taken on the point, and
by the general concurrence of the House, the practice was
changed. But what were the regulations at present. It was
competent for any member to present a petition ; he may state
the place from whence it came, its objects. aad the number of
signatures attached to it, and if he pleased, he might have
that petition read at the table. If be intended to found
a motion on that petition it was not referred to the Select Com-
mittee on petitions, but was printed with the votes—if the pe-
tition referred to a personal grievance, then he apprehended
that it was competent for the member to have that petition
discussed—these were the standing regulations, and instead
of arguing the question, he thought it better to leave it to the
sense of individual Members to decide whether it was
not better for the order and satisfactory conduct of
public business, to adhere to the present rule, rather
than originating a discussion on the presenting of petitions
his own opinion was that it was for the public advantage to
adhere to the Standing Orders formed by a large majority of the
House, and he hoped the House would not now depart fromthe
rules it affirmed in 1840.

Mr. BROTHERTON said he was convinced that the
discussion on petitions, when presenting them, was impracti-
cable. He never saw one of his constituents whom he could
not convince of is s impracticability. The present mode, so far
from being objectionable, was the best, and petitions were now
presented in the best manner in which he had ever seen them.
According to the old principle it was impossille to present
more than three or four petitions of a night. He hoped his
Hon. Friend would not attempt a division. He would merely
direct the attention of his Hon. Friend to the number of peti-
tions which had been presented at different periods. In the
the five p ars ending 1799, the number of petitions presented
had been 880 ; in the five years ending 1805, it
had been 1©26; in the five years ending 1815, they had been
4,498. In the five years ending 1831 they had been 24,492,
and in the five years ending 1843 they had been 94,291.
( Hear, hear.) Now he would ask his Hon Friend if it were
possible to have a discussion upon all these petitions.—( Cheers.)
The fact was, that under the old system petitions were sent to
only a few Members, who would occupy the time of the House,
regardless of the feelings of all present, and who would make
long Speeches. He had, under the old plan, brought down
petitions to the House, for nine days consetiutively, without
having had an opportunity of presenting them. He had the
strongest conviction that the people would not be dissatisfied
with the present ,plan if it were properly explained to them.—
(Cheers.) Although he was generally found voting on the
popular side, and although he was not insensible'to the appro•
bation of the people, he felt, from a sense of duty, bound to
vote against the motion.:
Mr. WARD had, some years since, brought forward a mo-
tion similar to that proposed by the Hon. Member for Greenock,
but further experience hnd convinced him of the correctness of
the views entertained by the Hon. Member for Salford, and of
the impossibility of discussing petitions when they were pre-
sented. He should, therefore, be compelled to vote against the
motion, although he had brought forward a similar one himself.
some years since. He felt that the adjourned debates to which
allusion had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet, afforded
the Members representing large constituencies a more conve-
nient opportunity of placing their sentiments on record, than
would be afforded them by any discussion upon petitions.
The Right Hon. 13arcfnet, however, had overlooked the
fact that any Hon. Member on his (the Ministerial) side of the
House were constantly anxious to press a division. The Right
Hon. Baronet should recollect that in debates en great com-
mercial questions, it was but right that every Member repre-
senting a large commercial constituency ought to have an
opportunity of delivering his sentiments. It was true
he had brought forward a motion something similar
in purport upon a former occasion, but that was in the days of
his inexperience, and much as he might regret it he felt bound
to vote against his Hon. Friend.
Mr. FIELDEN, who from the extremely low and indistinct
tone of voice in which he spoke, and the noise in the House,
was nearly inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say that
he hoped his Hon. Friend would divide the House upon his mo-
tion, when he (Mr. Fielden) would certainly vote in its favour.
Mr. WALLACE said that all he had heard on both sides of
the House had not changed his opinion that the people out of
the House would be glad to have the rule rescinded. He en-
tirely differed from the view taken by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Salford. His Hon. Friend was a member of
the Committee on Petitions, and most people were
easily biassed in their opinions by the possession of mock autho-
rity. However, he
_did not wish to waste the time of the
House—(Laughter, and oh, oh)—and as he was remieded by
the First Lord of the Treasury that to do away with the rule
would interfere with another regulation, which he considered
very useful, he would withdraw his motion for the present, but
at another time he would show the House that the rule ought
to be modified.

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
Sir G. CLERK moved the usual sessional orders.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said some of these standing orders were
so much at variance with the practice of the House that Govern-
ment ought to revise them. When the House had laid down rules
for the guidance of its proceedings, those rules should be strictly
adhered to ; but such was far from being the case. One
of the orders was, " That no Peer of this realm bath
any right to give his vote in the election of any Member
to serve in Parliament." Now he would not discuss the right
of peers to vote for Members of that House ; but the order in
to vote
. law
Mem-
ber or
question ought not to be established unless they had both the
commondisposition
la
law of
tthh
country power t of
rebnafdoer cae
e it. No
is
Peer
of that House ; and if a Peer were to claim to vote in virtue of
ha
is mr qualification,
t hadbe been
no
publiclyr g barristerstated
tthat
would
certainrefusep
teoear had
ll owd
declared that he would act in direct oppo-ition to the standing
order on the subject; he did not know v. hether he had done
so, but be did not see what there was to prevent him. They
must bring their authority into contempt by passing rules
which they had no power to enforce. Take another of the
standing orders :—" That it is a high iiifring=ment
of the liberties and privileges of the honours of the United
Kingdom for any Lord of Parliament, or other Peer or prelate
to concern himself in the election of Members to serve the

boroughs in Parliament." How they were to enforce this ?
It was provid before a Committee in 1836, that the Members of
the House of Peers, without one single exception. exercised all
the power which they possessed in virtue of property, office,
or anything else in influencing the election of Members of the
Hou.e of Commons. It was notorious that the Peers drove
their tenants and &pendants to the poll, and made them vote
at their own pleasure. If they refused they were punished,
either by removal from their situations or dismissal from their
farms.

(LEFT SPEAKING.)

THE LONDON GAZETTE.
(THIS EVENING.)

At the Court at Buckingham Palace, the 31st day of Janu-
ary, 1844, present the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty in
Council. Her Majesty having been pleased to appoint the
Right Hon. John Edward Cornwallis, Earl of Stradbroke, to
be Lord Lieutenart and Custos Rotulorum of the county of
Suffolk, his Lordship this day took the oaths appointed to be
taken thereupon, instead of the oaths of allegiance and
supremacy.
Her Illajesty in Council was this day pleased, upon the re-
presentation of the Eight Hon. the Lords of the Committee of
Council on Education, to appoint the Rev. Henry Moseley,
A.M., Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy, and
the Rev. Frederick Charles Cook, A.M., to be two of her Ma-
jesty's Inspectors of Schools.
THE PRINCE OF WALES' COUNCIL CHAMBERS,
SOMERSET HOUSE, FEB. 2, 1844.
Henry Lewis Stephens. of Tregenna Castle, in the parish of
St. Ives, has been this day appointed Sheriff of the county of
Cornwall for the pretent year.
WHITEHALL, JAN. 30.
The Queen has been pleased to present the Rev. David
Ross . Master of Arts, to the an ch at Tobermory, in the island
of Mull, in the pari,hes of Kilninian and Kilmore, in the
presbyte y of Mull and shire of Aron, vacant by the trans-
portation of the Rev. Donald Stewart, late minister thereof, to
the parish of Fortingall, in the presbytery of Weem.
WHITEHALL, Fel. 2.
The Queen has been pleased to present the Reverend Angus
Logan to the church at Berriedale, in the parish of Latheron,
in the presbytery of Caithness and shire of Caithness, vacant in
consequence of the Reverend Samuel Campbell, late Minister
thereof, having ceased to be a Minister of the Church of Scot-
land.

The Queen has also been pleased to present the Rev.
Donald M'Donald to the church at Kilmenny, in the united
parishes of Bowmore and Kilmenny, in the presbytery of Isla
and Jura and shire of Argyll, vacant in consequence of the Rev.
James Pearson, late Minister thereof, having ceased to be a
Minister of the Church of Scotland.

THE SUN, LONDON, PBTDAY EVENING, FEBRtYAFLY 9, iR4s,

comtnanced previous prics, but business has been restricted
by the scanty and indifferent assortment at market. To-
day there was no public sale of Coffee. Ceylon met with.
ready purchasers by ;.rivate contract, and prices are still
loin; up ; 65s 6d to 65s paid for good ordinary. Mocha has
fetched rather higher rates.
Ric:E.—Carolina cleaned here has been in fair demand at
21s to 26s per cwt. To-clay Bengal Rice was less in demand,
and 1,844 bags at auction were all taken in at Ils for good
mid white ; lOs 9d offered after the sale.

TEA.—To-day several purchases were made in Tea, and the
tendency of prices is still upwards ; .common and fine Congou
was the most in request. The lowest point of the market for
ordinary sound Congou is 13 per lb.
INDwo.—The market has been in a firm position since
Friday last ; a good demand has been experienced for all
qualities from the home trade, some parcels have been taken
for exportation, and the rates established at the quarterly
sale has been fully sustained at stiffer rates.

TALLOW.—P.Y. Candle of first quality 41s per cwt. For
delivery in the last three months of the year at 41s 6d to 42s
per cwt. Town Tallow at 42s to 42s 6d per cwt nett cash.
American at the former currency.
Oiss.—For Sperm Oil prices have been firm, British sold
at 721. American is 701 per tun. Cod Oil at 321 lOs to 331
per tun. Seal cheaper, 351 lOs to 361 for pale; Southern 36/
to 371 for fine quality. Linseed Oil at 26s 9d to 27s per cwt.
Rape Oil, 36s is the value of pale, and 35s per cwt for
brown. Olive Oil 46/ to 46/ lOs for Galipoli, and 42/to 431 for
Barbary and Spanish. Palm fine quality 28s 6d to 29s
per cwt. Cocoa Nut Oil fine quality 32s to 33s per cwt.
American Lard Oil, at 421 to 42/ lOs per tun. This afternoon
Southern Oil sold at 34/ to 361 lOs; Seal, pale 35/, brown
and straw 29/ to 33/..

Roman Catholics, which was not distinctly heard in the ;-3-11-
; lery, but excited consislerable laughter in the fisused—lle was
happy to say that although he differed from no man snore in his ,
political opinions than from the great-grandfather of the Noble
Earl—(Laughter)—he begged pardon, the grandfather—
in whom the Noble Duke opposite hail found so in-
convenient an ally in the campaign of emancipa-
tion—(Loud cheers)—yet there was no person from
whom he had experienced greater respect, or inst-
I riably grea'er personal kindness.—( Hear, hear.) There were
some topics connected with Ireland, upon which the speech
did not touch, and upon which he did not intend to
detain their Lordships, although he should have wished
that they had not been altogether omitted. There was
one subject, however, which was referred to rather more freely
than usual in a speech from the throne, he meant the registra-
tion of voters, which was mentioned in cora-lex:ion with its effe t
upon the limitation of the franchise. If the Government
brought forward in relation to that subject the measures which
the exigencies of the case, and the circumstances of
the country, required, no one would more cordially
support such measures than he. There was an-
other subject on which ho wished to say one word,
and which he still felt considerable difficulty in approach-
ing. It was the appointment of the Commission to inquire into
the laws relating to landlord and tenant. There was no one
who attended to the proceedings of that House but would ad-
mit that he (the Marquis of Normanby) .took no light view of
the subject of that inquiry, and that he was the person who
wrote a letter to the magistrates of Tipperary, in which
more than one of their Lordships had charged him with taking
erroneous views. Yet the opinions which he expressed in that
letter were echoed in the last session of Parliament by the
highest member of her Majesty's Government. He would,
however, have much preferred that the Government had in-
formed itself upon the points in which it was necessary to alter
the relation of landlord and tenant, and had then brought
in a Bill to effect a specific remedy. The speech
told them that the Commission had full authority
to investigate the question and to suggest remedies ; but
he much regretted the extent of time, during which public
expectation was to be kept in excitement. He thought that
some declaration ought to be made as to the specific points to
which the attention of the Commission was to be directed.
Something ought to be done to counteract impressions which
when once made it would be dangerous to disappoint. (Hear.)
He was sorry to feel himself obliged to say so much. But he
thought that it was most desirable that something specific
should he announced upon a subject respecting which there
was so much misapprehension. He thought that in such a
country as Ireland, where the means of information were much
within the reach of the Government, no step ought to
have been taken which could have a tendency to mislead
the public mind. He had risen solely because he felt that from
the situation which he had occupied in Ireland he ought to
state the grounds upon which he did not, on the present oc-
casion, enter fully into the case of that unhappy country. Ile
trusted that whatever evil might flow from present proceedings
in that—he would repeat—unhappy country, it was accompanied
with this goad—that it turned the attention of the people of
England to the manner in which the sister kingdom had been
governed—( Hear, hear)—for he believed that up to this
time the people of England were more ignorant of
the actual condition of Ireland than of that of
any other country in the world.—( Hear, hear.) He believed
that there was no man of any country whatever who visited
Ireland, but returned with the most friendly feelings ; and he
the:efore thought that the ignorance of this country respect-
ing Ireland was the more unfortunate, as it served to keep up
those distinctions which were the cause of all the discontent, to
allay a hich every expedient had been tried, except to do justice.
Hee'rnight differ with the Noble lord as to the terms. Every
other means hail been tried, except that of doing strict justice
to Ireland ; hut he hoped those who had hitherto supported the
Catholic claims would now join in removing any invidious
distinction, religious or political, and endeavour to place the
two countries on the same footing. He had a little departed
from the strict line he had laid down to himself, of not giving
any opinion or raising any question in connection with Ireland
that might cause any difference, till the proper opportunity should
occur. He should, therefore, say no more on this subject ; but
being on his legs, he should merely say, as to the other points
of the address, that he was never one of those who despaired
of the resources of the country, though he thought that the
Noble Earl had rather unfortunately alluded to one explana-
tion of the source of the present excess of revenue over ex-
penditure. He should riot venture on another question which
the Noble Lord had introduced, and which called a cheer from
some of their Lordships, and which subject had been carefully
excluded from the royal speech—he meant the question of
corn. On that question he differed from the Noble Lord, and
therefore he should not enter into any discussion of it then.
The speech, in reference to the affairs of Sinde, had been so
judiciously and carefully worded that they might concur in it
without expressing any opinion. He should only state
that he should join with great pleasure in any vote
of thanks to the officers engaged in some of the most distin.
guished feats of arms that had been performed in that part et
the world. He should do so with the more pleasure from his
personal acquaintance with the Gallant Commander, and with
Colonel Pennetather, of the 22d Regiment, who was, unfor-
tunately, disabled by a wound at an early period of these events,
He could not but feel gratified at the reference which was
made in the royal speech to the late visit of her Majesty to the
King of the French. He would yield to no man in his firm belief
and conviction, that upon the good understanding between Great
Britain and France depended the future well being of the relations
of the various European nations. It was unnecessary for him
to trouble their Lordships further on that occasion, but in
conclusion he would intimate that he should, probably on the
13th instant, call the attention of their Lordships to the sub-
ject of the present stare of Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM !Teo to caress his great satisfaction at
the fact, as the Noble Lord the mover of the address had
correctly stated, of this being the first time within the experience
of their Lordships, that they had been called upon to present in
the language of truth to the House, an address which, from
the beginning to the end, contained nothing but congratula-
tion. He never recollected an instance when the state of the
country was such as to justify the Parliament in con-
eratulating the Sovereign on the fact, that no point of
the political horizon was at all obscured. He rejoiced
that the speech, and the consonant to the speech, the
address, abstained from entering minutely into a discussion of
' the affairs of Ireland. However great might be his wish
to discuss that subject, he was restrained by his sense of
justice—by a sense of justice towards the Crown—the party
prosecuting on the one hand, and his sense, above all,
of justice towards the defendants, whom he was bound to pre-
sume, until a verdict of their countrymen should have pronounced
them guilty, were innocent of the charge laid to them, from
entering into that discussion, without violating that necessary
principle of justice, which militated against all discussion of the
subject while legal proceedings were pending. Those proceed-
ings were inevitable—those proceedings were taken in the dis-
charge of duty on the part of the Crown. He would not enter into
the question of whether it might be necessary for the Govern-
ment to take further steps, seeing that he could only do so hypo-
thetically. But that Parliament would do its duty, should the
law be found insufficient to support the Constitution as by law
established, he had no doubt—if the Government should be
found at any time not sufficiently armed with powers
to discharge their highest, their first, their most sacred
duty to preserve the peace of tne realm, and to maintain tke
Constitution committed to their care. In such ease, Parliament
would discharge that high trust faithfully, and under such cir
cumstances they would never be found wanting. Although
Parliament would not hesitate to arm the Government with
any power for the maintenance of the law, yet he would
much rather see the Government armed with power, not for
the purpose of displaying mere force and strength towards
the people of Ireland ; not with a view of coercing, compelling,
constraining, and forcing, but with a power and disposition to
better the condition of the people of Ireland—to improve them
in all those things in which they might be required to be bet-
tered—to gain them over, rather than force them to submission
—to show a parental and kindly feeling which a good
and beneficent Government ought to be inspired with
towards all its subjects, and perhaps most of all ought
to be inspired towards that part of its subjects
who were in a state of comparative ignorance and distress.
'1 his was the power he would wish to see them armed with,
and he trusted it would be seen that they would show pre-
ference of attraction over compulsion, and of a desire to be
parental to all its subjects, of being
" To all their faults a little blind,
And to their vile ues ever kind,"
And placing their padlocks on the mind, and not on the Limbs
of its subjects. This, he felt, was the course by which the
peace and tranquillity of the empire would be secured, and by
which all parties in the empire would be conciliated, notwith-
standing public meetings, however numerous, or the arts of
men devoid of principle, or the sordid agitators, or the designs
of priests, who were alternately the dupes, and the tools, and
the tyrants, now of the multitude, then of the leaders. With
respect to that Commission to which his Noble Friend had re-
ferred, he must express his satisfaction. It was presided over
by a nobleman worthy of the office, but a most difficult investi-
gation had been entrusted to him. He ( Lord Brougham) did
not think there was any foundation for a hope which a portion
of his Noble Friend's speech was likely to create in the minds
of the inhabitants of the sister country with respect to the re-
suit of the Commission. Property, it had been well said by his
lamented friend, dir. Drummond, had its duties, as well as its
its rights. But the duties were imperfect obligations ; the
rights were perfect obligations. However he might la-
ment when he saw persons not disposed to perform
those duties of imperfect obligation, namely, kindness, long
suffering towards the poor tenants, yet any attempt to enforce
their right would only lead to worse evils. However much he
might lament seeing a rich man refuse to assist a person lying
before him in a state of starvation, yet he could not compel that
man to do so. It would unhinge society—it would destroy the
sacred, inviolable, and absolute right of property. He there-
fore could not see that much hope was to be derived in this
respect from the Commission to which he had referred, unless
means were adopted which would only. lead to worse results.
He could not pass over in silence that part of her Majesty's
speech which referred to her friendly relations with foreign
Powers. Her Majesty justly expressed her confidence in the
continued friendly assurances of foreign Powers, and before all,
on the friendly intercourse and good understanding between
this Government and that of the French, and he would add,
between the people of this country and those of France. On
this subject he must be permitted to make a few observations,
because to improve that precious understanding tended
tin promote the great arid blessed work of peace.
He would begin by expressing, what he was sure all
who were acquainted with the late proceedings in France
must feel, his great admiration of the able, the honest, the
virtuous' and above all the unshrinkingly firm conduct of the
French Minister,- M. Guizot. He was a man illustrious in
letters and science, as well as politics, and who appeared
fated in every year that passed over his head to add new claims
to the respect and affection of his fellow-men in France, in
Europe, and in the rest of the world—whose conduct was above
all praise, especially his unshrinking determination of pur-
pose when assailed by a more unnatural union of factions, or
the elements of factions, than had existed since the enormity
of the French Convention in 1794. Against them he had
nevertheless maintained his ground, andrnanfully and honestly
dared his enemies to attack him; but if he was to go
step further and ask if this great Minister was also a great
friend to England, if he was to inquire whether they, as
Englishmen, had any particular reason to commend him or be
grateful to him, excepting as a friend of peace, he could not
extend his panygeric to him by any manner of means. When
he said he was .said to be an able Minister, firm of purpose,
of unshrinking determination, faithful to the French Crown
that he served and the French people whom he loved, there
he agreed with him, but if he was asked to add that he was a
Minister devoted to this country and adopting our
wishes, there he must demur. He knew not the negotiations
that hart taken place between M. Guizot and his Noble Friend
opposite (Lord Aberdeen), but he could form a pretty good
conjecture that his Noble Friend had never had to deal with
any one Minister, either of France or any other country, with
whom he had more difficulty to deal, he being perfectly a good
Frenchman, zealously attached to the Crown and people, whom
be served; but what should be said of those enemies of peace
who were seeking to stir up in the proud, the gallant, but sus.
ceptible people of France, or he should rather say of Paris than
of France, every slumbering ember of hatred to this country
which they could hope to fan into a flame. That people had
suffered toe much, and felt too deeply from the events of the
late war not to be susceptible. In those events they had no
share ; they were not to blame ; in them they had she% cn no weak-
ness but in which they were led on by a tyrant and a coneuei or
almost to their ruin, though under that man they performed
all but miracles. That they should be susceptible beyond ajj
people of ancient or modern times was not surprising, but what
was the duty of honest men if they pretended to be leaders?
What was the duty of honest statesmen if they thotight of their
country, of truth, and of humanity, rather than of their own

factietr porpeses.? It wei.d be to guide this susceptible peop
to a better state of feeling—to soothe and calm those susceptible
emotions, aed to inculcate every erinciple of peace, and to turn
them away from all those exaggerated fsclings of hostility.
What did they do? they did none of ail this ; they even did
the reverse of all this ; they stirred up every sore place, aril
inflamed every slumbering ember of hostility towards ;his
country. They degraded themselves by every species of mis-
ieprescntatiore both as to this country and Fiance;
and all this slid not wise out of hatred to peace or dis-
like of England--not from any ardent feeling of affection
towards France, but from contempt for the people who coull
be duped by such falsehoods, and out of hatred to the Govern-
ment of which they did not form a part. It was not from con-
tinued dislike of England, but from a hearty and honest dislike
of the gloomy shades of Opposition in which they were placed.
—( Great laughter)—and out of an ardent and zealous love,
not of glory or of France, but an earnest, an ardent, and
zealous desire to be transplanted from that shade to the sunny
eminence of power.—( Laughter. ) These were the motives of
that detestable party of intriguers, still more despicable agi-
teen's, who had lately, for the thousandth time, endeavoured to
disturb the good understanding between the two countries.
But they did not know the people of France. That people had
far too much acuteness and too much reflection to be duped
and misled—that people knew its own glory, and felt proud of its
ancient renown—it remembered its great achienements in arts,
sciences, and letters—it knew that for ages it had counted by
its triumphs its years of existence as a nation. Satiated, there-
fore, with military, as well us civil glory, the French people
would not suffer themselves to be led in search of new laurels,
which to them would be as useless as to his Noble Friend the
Illustrious Duke opposite. As he passed much of his time
amongst that people, he thought it his duty to give their Lord-
ships the opinions he had gathered from the public newspapers.
He would then refer to the paragraph in her Majesty's speech
referring to the importance and necessity of maintaining the na-
tional credit—it was a most just sentence that was so introduced
in the royal speech. An exact performance of all engagements
into which a State might enter was of great importance to the
creditor, but it was of still greater importance to the State itself,
and he was delighted to think that in return fur what they had
received from America, this passage would cross the At-
lantic, and be wafted over the same waves to that
country, in which it appeared that precisely the same
views were not taken of that important duty.---( Laughter.)
As the advocate of American interests for the last 30 or 40
years—an advocacy which had exposed him to more hostility
than M. Guizot in pari materia had had to undergo—he hoped
this friendly remonstrauce would have some effect on his
clients, as they used to be called. He declared it was- far more
with a view to their character and credit, it was far more with
a view to the character of republican institutions that he said this.
It was more for their interests than for the debt owing by rich
men to poor ones,for that seeined to be the case; the repudiating
States said in effect, we are rich, our coffers are loaded with
money, yet we are determined not to
said
y our debts. It was for
the sake of America herself that he said this, far more than for
any party in England to whom the debt was owed, and with
whom, indeed, ha had ne acquaintance, with one ex-
ception, and he was very well able to plead hie
own case.—( Great laughter.) Ile would relate to their
Lordships an anecdote which would illustrate this
better than a long speech. He was lately in the neigh-
bourhood of one of those great works carrying on in the centre
of France—the railway that was to join Paris with Orleans.
On asking who the workmen were, he was told they were
English and Irish. Ile asked if they found the Englishmen
sober? The reply was, not at all. He then asked how they
found the Irish ? They said they were excellent people when
they didn't fight. He said this was very painful, that lie
could never hear of Irishmen but that they were quarrelsome•
nor of Englishmen but that they were drunkards. Alas I said
his informant, I am front Philadelphia, and at present an
American is ashamed to avow his country. He could hardly
think of a circumstance better calculated to sink deep into the
spirit of the Americans, and rouse them to a sense of their
duty. They would then find that, even putting it on no higher
ground than on that of interest on both sides of the Atlantic,
honesty was the best policy.
The Marquis; of NORMANBY said he thought the Noble
Lord had misunderstood him in what he had stated with re•
ference to the relation between landlord and tenant in Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM briefly explained, and
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he could not take so
cheerful a view of the speech as the Noble Lord who spoke
last. But, unfortunately, it had been said, that the speech
contained nothing but topics for congratulation. That was
because the most important topic to be considered had been in
the speech passed over with slight observation. He alluded to
the state of Ireland. With respect to the affairs of Siede
the speech was also well and wisely worded, and
called for no observation. It would be necessary t°
look closer into the papers that had been furnished
before coming to an opinion. He perfectly agreed that, with
regard to the trials now pending in Ireland, it would be in a
high degree improper for any direct opinion to be expressed
with regard to them. But this he must say, that in the
speeches made to-night, and the speech made from the Throne
itself, the fault he had to find was this—that they looked at
these trials as if they were the only or main points of what
was, in general parlance, called the Irish question. The Irish
question did not consist of a struggle between the Government
and the Repeal Association—the quest ion was, how to improve
and develope the resources of the country, and how to bring it
into that happy state, in which it was the duty of a Government
to bring every portion of her Majesty's subjects. He told them,
and it was his duty to tell them plainly, that Ireland had listened
too long to such language to be satisfied now with such assurances.
But that was, as their Lordships knew, most vague language.
Could they expect in the present state of Ireland, he did not
mean in regard to any particular associations, but the state of
Ireland in the large sense of the word—the condition of the
people, the condition of the public mind,—di.l they suppose
by such phrases as these, he said, that they would really ameS
liorate the condition of the country ? The people of Ireland
would naturally ask by what means were these resources to be
developed? He (the Marquis of Clanricarde) had unfortu-
nately learned from the speech of her Majesty, and from the
speech of the Noble Mover of the address, that the Government
had not in contemplation any measure whatever for the good
of Ireland during the present session. The only measure
which had been alluded to was that of the electoral franchise.
That was a grand subject, and one which required the greatest
consideration, but it was a measure which related only to poll..
tical liberty, but had nothing whatever to do with developing
the resources of Ireland, and the immediate condition of the
country. Another measure had been likewise alluded to in the
royal speech. He meant the Landlord and Tenant Cow'
mission.
A NOBLE Loan—That is not the Commission.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE---Yes, that was the mints
which had been given to it in the public newspapers, and that
was the name which its nature entitled it to. On that Com-
mission he held very strong opinions. He thought it wall
the most mischievous and pitiable contrivance that ever a per-
plexed Ministry had recourse to. His conviction was, that
the Government had recourse to it as a mere clap-trap for de'
laying the moment of difficulty, and to save them from looking
in the face the real grievances with whieh the country wasafflicted. The Commission had its origin in the agitation in
this. country and in Ireland regarding the fixity of tenures
Until that phrase came into common use there Fa°
not a word about a Landlord and Tenant Coto'
mission. He would like to know what good this coin'
mission would effect. All the information regarding the laws
of landlord and tenant, and their operations, would be found
in their statutes anti in their blue books. There was sp
inquisitorial system practised by this Commission, which cold.
not be too jealously watched, nor too strongly declaimed
against. There were branch committees connected with this
Commission, which instituted the most rigid inquires of the
landholders, and if landlord or tenant refused to answer their
queries, they were pointed out to their neighbours in a manner
which, in the present state of some Irish districts, must be 01a
thing but safe or proper. He thought the Irish landlords had
been most unjustly census ed, and if inquiries were made into
their conduct, they would not Le found worse than any other
class of persons, placed under the same circumstances. The
misery of the people, which had been caused by centuries
,"/
misgovernment was most ungenerously and most unfail
thrown upon the landlords. It did not require the Queen_
Commission to take away civil bill process, m to specify h 0
distraint should be made. It was in this respect perfectli
absurd, but it was dangerous, inasmuch as it seemed to in-
terfere with the right of property • and many districts, which
had been peaceable before the Commission vvas issued, ha.ve
since then been disturbed by outrages of the most serious de"
scription.—( Hear, hear.) It was not quite right that
par-
liament should be left ignorant upon these subjects. He
•I'.
no means blamed the Government, although, in doing their
best to put down outrage, they had not taken the course which
he might have considered the most wise. There were great
questions which the Government must take up, and if not par-
liament must take up, or it could never receive the confidencv
or the affection of the Irish people.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that he found a great die
crepancy between the words used in her Majesty's speech, 'll
reference to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, and the lap
guage of the document itself by which the Commission was art
pointed. He begged to ask the Noble Earl at the head of that
Commission on which of the authorities he might rely for the
objects of the inquiry ?
The Earl of DEVON was understood to say that he did net
perceive the discrepancy.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that the very WO
in which the Commission was issued showed that it was a :
cession to agitation, made by those who pretended to desPl"
agitation.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL did not rise to disturb the unaniMitl
with which the House seemed disposed to receive the addretl;
although there were many topics to which he was inclinelbo
advert in relation to the perilous state of the country stels
moment. He would abstain at present from observing e „",tie
the manner in which the State trials in Dublin were 'f-elee
toted and conducted, but he thought it was necessary toe his
to the subject, and to intimate that he might think it Keduty to call their Lordships' attention to it at another tirthire
Speechdiscouraging.
f,the
Throne, for m former h
ooccasions,
had also to advert to an omission from thespeech, which w" she
om
contemplated, to state what those improvements
t improvementsHhee supposed
improvement of
twthi teae
rot
el a.
cfe
01:
e:Loti,
it was usual, in "
w
cscei
oesuss
iiraotsnst?
caaaniledci
erastses
,i‘navnterdroedadnurenie,tild,lie)efrodrf.o
rt he improvement of the el
had been any intention to bring forward any of those Met es
they would be mentioned in the speech. However, the ietheo
of 1642, and that of 1843, were full of promises which
press session did not realise. It might be the reverse in the pt cent
r,
session, which might be one of performance, although' erie,
menced without promise.—( Laughter.) The Noble Ear_onet
moved the address, had expressed a hope that something fle
be done to put down the mischievous practice of duellinte, ein
( Lord Campbell) must infer from that remark,
Earl had received an intimation that the Government Wes °the
to bring in a Bill upon the subject after the conclusion "'
State trials in Ireland.—( Laughter.) tke
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was his intro „row
early in the present session to renew the Bill for the lintrh-o ree
ment of Ecclesiastical Courts, and a Bill fee- facilitating, for the
covert' of small debts. A Bill would eso be introduce"
tioet
compensation of those who had been affected by the siteswoe
in the Court of Chancery, but lee was not aware of al
tion to introduce a measure relative to duelling. that the Na yid
pted t*
Lord BROUGHAM said that his Noble Friend see, raliesx
the
be disappointed at the performances of the Government,
slant of their promise, but he would find that in this 9
performance would very greatly exceed their
Lord CAMPBELL—That may easily be—the prowl*
es
noric.—( A laugh.) atifeing'
Lord BROUGHAM said nothing could be more one ob.
Lord BROUGHAM said he must protest againscti
',earned
le az'
servation ehich had been made by his Nob
s.—that the
Friend (Lard Campbell), who said—in a parenthes' a complete
Bankruptcy Act of tee session before last had beensner
come
failure. here never was an act which had been e
make
that
to ma
pl,•tely successful.—( Laughter). He ventured
statement in answer to the to
promises.
are
Noble Lord's observant who"
Lord CAMPBELL.—There never was an Act
proved a more utter failure.—(Renewed laughter.)_O it, we
Lord BROUG HA el.—lf yOl make a 'notion ur"
shall see.—(Cries of Order. ')
The address sees then agreed to.
On th 9 motion of the Duke of WELLINGTON the Earl Of
Shaftesbury was reappointed Chairman of
...-•
Their Lordships then Adjourned at Eight o'Clock.
Committees.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 1.
THE ADDRESS.
rd Edition of
Mr. HUMS (in continuation 14ig i uation of our Thi
last night) proceeded to say—'l hat when th sia
Honourable Baronet and gentlemen behind bitn tgoawdet
".
the tariff the Chinese bad lately isepoled, they