The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-23 00:00:00

Trip, 81-TN-, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, MAY 23, 1845.

trachinery and consequent expense—(Haar, hear.) The
Commissioners would hold their office contingent on
their good behaviour ; they would. on appointment,
take an oath of the due discharge of their
duties, and, in fact, would hold their Office
by the same tenure as the judges. Wholly- independent
of the Crown they would be less.open to political suspi-
cion. The Masters in Chancery at present performed
these duties. but they were appointed by *be Minister of
the Crown, by whom their decisions could to set aside.
Undue influence was much more likely, therefore, to he
suspected, he did not say justly, under the present than
the proposed system. The first appointment he proposed
to leave to the decision of the Committee on the Bill : be
should, when it was in that stage, same individuals for
the post, and it would be for the House to sanction and
adopt their nomination. As to the means by which this
new-creatcd tribunal was to be paid, three modes sug-
gested themselves to his mind, either, first, that the ne-
eessary sum should be taken out of the Consolidated
Fund, or, secondly, out of a small per tentage on the
charities, or, thirdly, by a union of those two methods.
For himself, he was inclined to suggest that one per
cent. should be levied on, the charities, and if that
(contrary to his anticipations) were not f iund sufficient,
the renihintler should be taken out of the ConsoLdated
Fund. However, as that must depend on the will and
pleasure of the House below, he would net dwell upon it
then. The principle of the Bill was to supply the last
defec's :n the administration of justice as regarded smell
eharitii s. Other propositions had been engrafted in the
Bill, all tending to a saving of enormous expense, and
the remedy of palpable abuses.—(Hear, hear.)
• Lard BROUGHAM did not rise to make any length-
ened observations on the measure so ably introduced by
his Learned Friend en the Wrolssck ; but having an
experience of thirty years in the entire subject, in
all its bearings and its most minute details, lie
had had occesion to see the working of "the pre-
sent and the importance of the proposed system.
The manner in which he intended to appoint the trus-
tees would remove any supposition that dime would be
a wrong appropriation of .the funds, and a fair distribu-
tion of the funds would result to all the charitable insti-
tutions of the country. He would agree with ha Noble
Friend as regarded the general principles of the measure
he had brought ferward, but he believed that the Court
of Chancery was not the best constituted authority for
removing abuses -in small charities, as it was ridiculous
to suppose that 200/. or 3001. could be spent in regulating
the proper distribution of charities of as amount not ex
ceeding 10/. per annum. The Bill provided for the re
newel of trustees when the trusteeships were vacant, and
that was a most important point. For often great diffi-
culties arose from the vacancy of that responsible
office.—(Hear, hear.) No respectable parties
would have any objection to a full inquiry
into the receipts and disbursements of the charities the
funds of which they distributed. It was inconsistent
with the possibility of belief that there could be any-
thing wrong in the management of those funds, when
those who held them courted inspection and the fullest
inquiry. He thought that these inquiries, under such
circumstances, should not be made ; for they resulted,
more frequently than not, merely from the desire of gra-
tifying an idle curiosity. It was for Noble Lords to
consider, first, the constitution of the tribunal, and then
the expense of it.' The constitution of the tribunal
was all in all, and his Noble and Learned
Friend had stated his opinion on this head in a
most lucid manner. He had, however, some doubts
about the conveyance of trusts in a similar manner
to that adopted in the management of corporations.
The appointment of such a tribunal as that suggested by
his Noble and Learned Friend did not coincide altoge-
ther with his opinion. It would not do to bring the su-
pervision of the appointment of trustees immediately
lindei• the authority of Masters in Chancery. One rea-
son for giving them those powers was stated to be, that
from the nature of the high offices they held in the judi-
cial administration they were not exposed to any poli-
tical influences, but he considered that they might be
liable to be biassed in their selections in an indirect
manner. Much, in his opinion, remained to be ar-
ranged as to the constitution of the trustees. The mea-
sure generally met with his entire approbation, and when
some few alterations which he had suggested should
have been made, he had no doubt it would prove a most
salutary one. He would, therefore, with great satisrac-
time give his support t 3 the second reading of the Bill,
reserving however to himself the right of opposing the
details at a future period. He should like very much to
refer the Bill to a Select Committee to be appointed by
their Lordships to arrange the executive' part of the
measure, as he thought it was most important that this
should be attended to.

Lord COTTENIIAM said he thought the suggestions
of his Noble and Learned Friend should be acted on.
Lord LYNDIIURST observed that ho would take
care that those suggestions were not lost sight of; and
that they should meet with every atten'ion.
Lord COTTENIIAM continued to say that Masters
were at present appointed by the Court of Chancery,
and he thought that they should continue to be ap-
pointed by it. In municipal charities trustees in many
instances hai been neglected to be appointed, and it was
only when the charities had been brought into the
Chancery Court that they had been appointed. In the
present Bill the Court had not been given pnwer to ap-
point trustees, and, therefore, he could not permit the
Bill to pass. The jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery
extended to municipal charities .of all amounts, and it.
would be for the consideration of Parliament to decide
whether it was advisable to restrict their power.
Lord ASHBURTON stated that he wished that the
petitions for alt.3rationS in the administration of charities
that had been presented might be referred to the
Committee.

Lord LYNDFIURST said they would be so referred,
and that alterations provided for in this Bill had been
intended for all charities, both large and small.
Lord CAMPBELL said, he should protest against the
power of the proposed Commissioners on the appoint-
ment of trustees in Municipal Charities. It was a sub
ject of the greatest importance to the individuals who
participated in those charities. The present source for
apnointieg Commissioners rested with the Lord Chan-
cellor, and he would call in the assistance of one of the
Masters in Chancery to make the selection, subject to the
Lord Chancellor's approval. The only objection that
had been made to this coarse had been the expense, and
this was a serious objection. The three Commissioners
contemplated to be appointed were by the Secretary of
State. In the first instance they were to be named in
the Bill and then they were to be appointed by the Se-
cretary of State. Now there were three Secretaries of
State—one for the Home Department, another for the
Foreign Department, and a third for the Colon'es, who
were all in a capacity to act one for the other, and pere
invested with equal powers. Any on of
them might ' appoint any person he pleased,
without responsibility, to be one of the Commissioners.
The Commissioners, according to the provisions of the
Bill,lnight go down to Liverpool or Warwick, or any
other town, and appoint all the trustees as they might
think fit. They might nominate them from the Tory
side or from the Liberal side, giving a preponderance to
one or the other, as the motive might be.

The LORD CHANCELLOW:They, have no power
to remove trustees, but to supply vacancies.
Lord CAMPBELL differed from his Noble and
Learned Friend. It gave them absolute power to add
to the number of trustees, so as to swamp the Tories on
the one side, or vice versa. It was said that the Com-
missioners were sworn to exercise their duties honestly,
and would be above doing a political job ; but could they
have the same authority as that belonging to the Lord
High Chancellors& England or the Masters of Chancery?
Could they have thesame deference shown towards them,
or the same amount of cptifidence, that those high officers
of the Crown possessed? He should strenuously oppose
this part of the Bill, and if a Member of the Committee,
he should move the omission of those clauses ; and if
that were not successful, he should use his best efforts
against it on the third reading. He thought the Bill
contained many salutary provisons, and he admitted
that some good tribunal was required to take cogniz ince
of such charities as those referred to, hut he objected to
the introduction of such a principle into the Bill as that
trustees might be reduced or increased at the will of the
Commissioners.
The LORD CHANCELLOR explained that the ap-
pointments would not rest with the Secretary of State,
but with the Lord Chancellor, and that care would be
taken that none should be appointed as Commissioners
but those of the highest standing.
Lord ABINGER made a few observations in reference
to the appointments made under Lord Cottenham, and
to the effect that the appointments under the Crown
should be above all suspicion.
Lord COTTENII AAI defended the appointments
made under him when Lord Chancellor.
After a few words in explanation from Lord
ABINGER, which were inaudible in the gallery, the
Bill was read a second time.

Their Lordships immediately afterwards adjourned,
at a Quarter past Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 22.
At Four o'clock, there not being 40 Members present;
the House adjourned.

['rho following is a fuller report of the conclusion of
Wednesday night's debate, than we had time or space
to give in yesterday's Morning Edition :—]
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, as I have addressed the House
on former occasions upon this subject, there are but few ob-
servations which I wish now to offer to it. They are rather
observations referring to the part I have taken on th:s subject,
and to the present state of Ireland, than to the immediate con-
duct of the Government. I wish, in the first place, to address
a large body, who have not been much represented in this
House, whose sentiments I have heard very little of in the
course of these debates, but whose opinions I am accustomed
highly to value, and who I am sure have come to their conclu-
sions from conscientious convictions; I allude to the large body
of the Protestant D.ssenters of England. I find that they, dif-
fering very much from many who oppose this measure on the
other side of the House, say that they are quite ready to do
justice to Ireland, but that that justice ought to be done in
another manner.—( Hear, hear.) They say, " Grant every
franchise which Ireland can claim to put her on
an equality with England, but do not do any fa-
vour to Romanism ; if the Established Church be
objected to, reduce the power of that Church, but
do not give that power into the hands of the Roman
Catholics." Now, I am not going to dispute as to
the preference of one over the other. For my own part, the
view which I took of the state of Ireland many years ago was
rather in accordance with their view than with the tendency
of the measure now before the House ; but in proposing our
measures we met with opposition so strong, not only in this
and the other House, but likewi e (I must admit) in the
country, that many of those measures were retarded for years;
and with respect to one of the principal—proposing to reduce
the revenues of the Established Church of Ireland—we entirely
failed, and were obliged to propose a Tithe Bill without that
proposition.—( Hear, bear.) If we had taken the course re-
commended by the gentlemen to whom I now refer, let them
consider what would have been the result. We should have
been successful, I have no doabt, if we had joined the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, in defeating this measure on its first in-
troduction, or on the second reading; but should we have ob-
tained that which the parties referred to say is required by
justice to Ireland? Should we hoe obtained measures for

the reduction of the present Church Establishment in Ire-
land ? Would those who should urge such a measure then
have Leen aided by those who assist them in opposing
the grant to Maynooth ? It is evident, not only by what
pae sett four years ago, but by what has passed this sear, by
what has passed on the motion of the lion. Member fur Shef-
field ( Mr. Ward), that we should have been utterly defeated
in that attempt, and that while the Maynooth grant would have
been lest, we should have been entirely unable to carry any
tneasuie tending to remedy the inequality existing in Ireland.
—( Cheers.) Why, then, what was my duty ? Seeing that
I could not carry the measure which lehought the best and
most favourable to the freedom of Leland, when I saw any
measure of a different kind, proposing not to reduce the Pra-
to t s
it,ar noyt
oCche uarocmh
e,
tbhuitntgo elevater tehgranalai ttyh
—o Cl i
ter
aCs hi tti r
notch , amnyd
(tihnet
yr biyf
I wished far the welfare of Ireland, to give any best support
to that measure, from whatever Ministry it might come, and
whatever might be the tendency of my vote with respect to
the party who might remain in power?—(Loud cheers. t But
I cannot refer to this subject without taking some no-
tice of a speech made in this House by the Noble Lord the
Member for South Staffordshire (Lord Ingestre), who said
very plainly—and I give him credit for his frankness—that
although this was not the measure against which he voted in
nipusing the appropriation clause—although it takes nothing
from the Protestant Church of Ireland, yet if this measure
(which he will now support) had been proposed by the late
Government, he w u'd have voted against it.—(Cheers.) I
am one of those who will stand up for the advantaees of party.
I think party spirit a most useful thing, that it tends to make
men zealous on behalf of great principles, and to bring them
into fellowship for great purposes, and has enablel men, by
bringing their different talents and capacities into one concen-
trated effort, to carry most excellent m asures, which would
otherwise have fai'ed—(llear)—but yet party has disadvan-
tages belonging to it ; it very often insp.res a blindness and a
Ltsrd ifsroma n
party—( Cheers)
Cohf
betereess in those who belong to party ; and wh:le the Noble
disadvantages.—( newed c
eaelrlat)he advantages which are to be de-
rivedinstance. remember some years ago, what I thought a
—heletrhs.ii)ak hieintisthaisprisoonfoaltstoheoffirist
its
most remarkable and most melancholy case of party heat, at
a dinner in Staffordshire, one of those assemblies which then
met for the purpose of abusing the Government of the day.
when the murder of Lord Norbary was made an instrument of
party warfare, and its announcement was received with cheers.
as if it was the means of attacking the Government for being
wanting in the energy with whit;h justice ought to have been
administered in Ireland. Sir, lam happy that I belong to a
party which does not use such weapons.—( Loud cheers.)
13ut the Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) has alluded to
the present state of the Government and of Ireland. The
Right Hon. Baronet has said, that such was the sate of Ire-
land in 1843 that the ordinary resource of law, which must be
executed by trial by jury, would not be an efficient instrument
for the purposes of the Government of Ireland. That, I have
nn doubt, was a true confession ; but, at the same time, it is a
very sad, I might say a humiliating, confession, for any Go•
vernment to make.—(Cheers.) It shows a disposition in the
people of that country not to convict even in cases where it is
to be supposed that the law is in favour of the Executive Go-
vernment; it shows a disposition such as has not existed in
this country, I believe (with the exception solely of the years
1794 and 1795), since the Revolution of 16814. ' it shown an
alienation of the people of Ireland from the whole system of
your Government.—( Hear.) I hope that disease may
cured, that we may now be on our way to
better times; but there must be other measures—(Cheers)
—recourse must be had to a further policy—l don't know that
I should say of conciliation—l don't want to use the word—
but of justice towardelreland. Nor must we any more hear
that old cry of " Oh, how ungrateful the Irish are?
—( Cheers.) We give this grant to Maynooth, and yet
they are not thankful." This has been the continual parrot
cry ever since you first relinquished the atrocious penal laws.
You said, " Only think of these Catholics—we have allowed
them to educate their own children, and yet they are not grate-
ful. We have allowed them to have priests
spoWrleingh:tve permitted them to ride
orimpriosofntihnegirthorwmn, c
andhil-
dyeretnt,h
ereyi
are
o u tn
ot fining,gratetfroaln.
horses, which may be of the value of 1501., and yet they are
not grateful for the indulgence. We have allowed them to go
to mass, and yet they are not grateful. We have allowed them
even to inherit landed property, and yet this barbarous and
savage nation will not be grateful,they
and
dll
hear," from
flenfedrm there
Mr.
other
things." To be sure, Sir, they ask for
har otherer things,ro and
tshheeyiow_illunatskd for other
spothreertehnintgs—(,
to
England
is a perfect and just equality.—( Loud (-beers.) Anil
then when you can say that there is perfect and
just equality I shall fear nothing from this cry for
a repeal of the union, formidable and powerful as it is,
among great masses of the people of Ireland at the present
moment.— ( Cheers. )• I think we should then bring the ad-
vocates of repeal to fair argument on that question. I would
put before them an assembly meeting in Dublin, with an Irish
House of Lords, such as the Irish House of Lords would be
then constituted—a democratic assembly in Ireland, first quar-
relling with that House of Lords, and breaking it to pieces, as
they would naturally do—next inflicting fines on absentees—
next quarrelling with the English, because the manufactures of
England were sent to Ireland, and endeavouring to get up
manufactures of their own, in a spirit of jealous manufacturing
rivalry—then proceeding in a spirit of enmity towards those
who hold property in Ireland who did not agree with the majo-
rity ; and in that manner forcing on, before a very long time,
a quarrel with this country. Then would be a quarrel not for
repeal—trot far having taco Legislatures—but a quarrel as
to whether England and Ireland should be united under the
same crown. The independence of Ireland might turn out
to be the dream of some young enthu iatie, and I will not
deny some patriotic, men in Ireland, but the idea of Ire-
land existing as an independent country would be found
the shallowest dream that ever occupied a fantastic brain.—
(Cheers.) It would be found that the enemies of England
would make Ireland the battle-field with foreign countries.
What, then, I ask, would be the situation of Ireland? What
then would hecome of her now advancing commerce, of her
now impressing agriculture? What would become of those
rights which she has in common with Englishmen—rights
which we so dearly value, and which have been extended to
us? Why, Sir, all would be lost ! All would perish in that
conflict—England would be weakened.—( Hear.) But that
England wou!d be conquered by Ireland is a supposition 1 do
not imagine any Hon. Gentlemen indulge in.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) England would be a sufferer, but Ireland would be
a ten times worse sufferer.—(Hear, hear.) She would be
made the subject of some other foreign power, with her com-
merce and agriculture torn to pieces—with her religious dis-
tinctions made more bitter than ever, and with all hope of her
proceeding quietly and tranquilly in a state of prosperity and
freedom utterly and entirely lost.—(Hear, hear.) But before I
can hope to put that argument with any effect, before I can
argue it in detail, before I can make it a matter on which I
can expect Irishmen to listen coolly to reason, I think I am
bound on every occasion, and in every way to show that if
there is any privilege which Englishmen enjoy and Irish-
men wish to have, we are ready to grant it.—( Hear, hear. )
Whatever may have been the former proceedings of this
country, whatever indifference I may admit that England has
displayed towards Ireland in former times, I am prepared to
say that there is a great change of opinion and of feeling with
regard to Ireland._( Hear, hear.) There may be a difference
as to what should be done, but there is a desire to de some-
thing for Ireland. Why, then, if such be the desire, am I net
bound to say to the Government do not stop short here.—
( Hear, hear.) Do not be satisfied with this measure.—( Hear,
hear.) But be satisfied with this—that you have seen in this
measure that it is not party difference that will make men
oppose Sou when you bring forward a measure which is bene-
tfihceiasel
wtohelhrealvaendl.e—st(Hpeeweer,r hear.) That,
repossess
office.—(a
t,whatever obstacles
you meet with, it will not be from an anxiety on the part of
Hear, laear.)
That you may expect a majority of this House to go with you
if you will fairly and boldly declare your intentions, and rely,
as the Right Hon. Gentleman declares he will rely, upon the
value of those measures themselves, for the support and
acceptance that they will receive.—(Hear, hear.) 1 will
not say that there are not great difficulties in the way ; I
will not conceal, that I think those difficulties have been im-
mensely increased by the course pursued its past years ; but I
andooo
oot the e
meetingonl y
waydo say that, whatever may be those difficulties, we shall not
lessen them by shutting our eyes to their greatness and im-
portance,and without flinching, and to rely un Providence for the
theta,
becoming the character of
: is to meet them steadily
m
this great y
thattr
issue.—( Great cheering.)
had cast a most unjust aspersion on his own party, in saying
thaNr
tlth. eGy.hPaAd Lwf:tlhEdrßacj:mtphlaeiinred that the Right Hon. Baronet
support from him, and that it
advice. The Right Hon. Baronet had withdraws from his
pwaerstyto;ohme
had
dh
bfroerktehneamll ttoheexpect that he should ask their
pledges which he
ahnadmgeisvtenhaovne
taking office.
Sir R. PEEL said that thellon. G
greatly misunderstood the expressions which bad fallen from
him. He was sure that he had done ample justice to those
gentlemen who had differed with him upon that question ; and
he had said that he was convinced that they differed with him
from conscientious feelings. But when he had been charged
were—
justified in saying that he would notsubserviency to the wishes
the servile tenure of an unqualified with being a traitor to his party, he dindotnhsionnkt htoimhsoelldf
opffierafeectolny
The House then divided, and the
of any portion of his supporters.—(
317
For the motion ...... .......
184
Majority in favour of the
DUNT"OMBE then rose to propose the following
Mr. T. a Cnohmeehres.ri
notice:—" And be it enacted
motion, of which lie had given
Against it
........................ °third reading —133
that the powers and provisions of this Act shall not continue
and be in frame longer than the Ist day of August, 1848, and
from thence to the end of the then next session of Parliament."
h
Taking the present state of public feeling into consideration,
did not think that this was at all an unreasonable proposi-
tion. There had been petitions presented against this measure
i
which were signed by about 1,300,000, and only 60 petitions
favour of it, which were signed by about 16,000 persons.
When he saw what he might say was the unanimous feeling of
the country on one side, and the opinion of the House on the
other, he felt that he.had a strong right to ask for the limita-
tion of the Bill. He believed that if this clause were adopted
it would act in the shape of a message of peace to many of the
Sir R. PEEL said that he was desirous that the debate
should be ternlactated that night, and if the Hon. Member per-
sisted in his motion it would be necessary to press the House to
a division. There were many cases in which sums had been
srdeereevdilstoc°
wmitphladirnaewd:ofanitd at-hoeulducooumse-
voted in perpetuity, and this, therefore, would form no excep-
tion. He objected to the insertion of this clause, because
constituencies of this country.
pletely neutralise the good effects which were intended to be
produced by it.
Strangers were
appeared--
divided, when there
For the motion .......................145
Against it
while it removed notthieenofe
... 243
Aiajortty againt the motion --98
The motion was consequently lost.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
Half-past Two o'clock.
House adjourned at

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PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

( From the Voles and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
WEDNESDAY, MAY 21.
MAYNOOTII COLLEGE BILL.
Order for Third Reading read; Motion made, and Question pro-
posed, " That the Bill be now read a third timo :"—Amendment
'proposed, to leave cut the word " now," and at the erld of the Ques-
tion to add the words " upon this day six months :"—Question put,
" That the word now' stand part of the Question." The House