The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-16 00:00:00

commend. that the laws on this subject should be
repealed. altogether, or that bread should in all
eases be 'sold by weight.
Sir-C. BURRELL spoke in favour of the Motion.
The 'price of bread was higher than it ought to
be. 'Wheat was kt presentl4/..per load, and the
'quartern-loaf sold for ten-pence. When Wheat
sold for 301 per load, the price of bread sold for-
one shilling and sixpence. It was seen that corn-
Petition did not cure the evil, and that the buyer
Was left completely at the mercy of the sellers.
Mr. LITTLLfON and Sir C. BURRELL severally
explained, and, after a few words from Mr. Al-
.dermanT. Smi'rna in favour of the motion, the
question was put and carried, and a Committee
appointed. ,
Mr. Humr put off his motion respecting the
Miscellaneous Estimates till Monday.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the
Day for bringing up the Report of the Conimit-
tee of Supply.
Mr.' BERNAL observed, that the Guards now
formed a body of military police, and the duties
which, they had to perform in that capacity Ns ere
felt' by themselves as a severe pressure. This
was a subject which deserved the serious consi-
deration of ParliaMent. Ile saw no reason why
so many detachments of the military should he
sent .to stations, where their services were not
necessary.
,Why was a Serjeant's Guard kept
at.theWest India Doek, and the British Museutrxi
Surely there could be no reason why the West
India GoMpany should not maintain a sufficient
Police .establishment for the protection .of their
warehouses, nor could he see why a Serjeant's
Guard of six; men was deeMed necessary to pro-
tect the coins, the Elgin marbles, or the different
engravings at the British Museurn. It might be
said, that the reduction for which he was contend-
ing, amounted to only 100 men, and-this was too
trilling to deserve attention ; but it should be
considered that a guard of 100 .men demanded a
main guard of 400 men, as they required to be
relieved every_ fourth night. Ile by no means
wished to see the Foot Guards-abolished, but he
thought they Might be fairly- reduced to the num-
ber of 4,000 men, rank and file. The cavalry,
which now composed a force of 7,000 men, might
also be reduced with great benefit to the country.
Ho did not Wish to see the army so reduced as
to leave the country naked arid defenceless ;
:but
he was most anxious, on the other hand,. that an
Unconstitutional, overawing Military force might
not be kept up in the country.
Sir H. IVIRDI.VGE obServed, that the subal-
terns of the Guards
,were much under paid, com-
pared with the rest of the army. A Lieutenant
of the Guards ranked with a Captain of the.line;
but, in point of fact lie received little more than
half-pay. The Guards were at present kept up
at a very trilling expence to the country ; but' if
they were placed' upon 'the same footing as the
line, that expence would; in fact, be materially
increased. -
Mr. LOCK4ART said, the house of Commons
acted' with regard to the public expenditure, like
a prodigal, who first determined to spend a cer-
tain sum, and then proceeded "to consider hOAV he
should get it. He objected to the Report being
brought up upon these principles, and he main-
tained that 'the Committee' was. falsely termed a
Committee of Ways and Means. They did not
consider the real ways and Means by which the
country might meet the expenditure, but they
merely reconatnended a given s.ervice to he sup-
ported by a given expenditure, without. estireat-
ing the, ineans of the country. How could he
(Mr. Lockhart) tell that, the two measures,
which were Shortly to be submitted to Parlia-
ment ; he meaift the repeal of the last Malt Du-
ties., and of the. Husbandry _Horse Tax, might
nOt be carried, and a deficiency consequently
arise in the• Way's and Means of the.
,country to
support the
,proposed expenditure
Sir H. Rartrps.aa.-:aid,,-theprospeet before the
country waS:Sefficierftly lamentable, for the rea-
soning or his Majesty's Ministers was, that if
tiiere were no 'reduction of the army, there,could
be no dimihntion of expenditure, and consequent-
ly no reduction of taXation.. The Hon. Member
proceeded to adVert to 'the Military force kept
uu in Ireland' and contended that the 'Civil
-.4 •
Establishment
.in. that. country was not placed
upon a proper footing. The great defect of the
evstern)VaS, that. constables were appointed by
the Graed Juriea; and 'consequently were not
ffi suciently under the controul of the Magistrates.
Ile hoped that the Hon. Secretary for Ireland
would turn his attention to this subject ; for he
was satisfied, that if the Civil forte were placed
upon a proper, footing, the Army now kept tip
in Ireland might ber coresidereblv.reduced.
Lord PA-LMERSTON said; the :Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Lockhart)" had said it was a misnomer to
Call. the `Committee a COMmittee of Ways and
Means ; 'and So,' indeed, it was, but it was the
Hon. Gentleman -himself who Was guilty of the
misnomer; for lie had thought proper to call that
a Committee of Ways and Means, which every
body else called a Corimilttee of
.Supply (a laugh).
Mr. CA:LERAFT Made some observations in ex-
planation of what he •had said the other night.
fleapprov-ed of the systern.of keeping up a con-
siderable skeleton of our military force, as one
Which in the'end would be the most economical.
While he was &sirens that every practicable re-
duction should take place,..he declared that no
man horfouted the service more than himself, sal-
-Was-More anxious to.keep up an efficient military
force fOrtheservice 'of the country.
Mr: LOCititAtiT'adrilittd that; he had used the
WOrds Ways -artd Means instead of a CoMmittee
of SUpply, but maintained that his argument was
not in the slightest degree
.affected by:that diffe-
rence.

Sir li. V.Lyt.t;sr said, that m;-Th as they had
hard about the small' size of the horses of the
'Light Cavalry, he believed they were Very_ little
less than tii.2y had been formerly. Hq had no
doubt.that atone time the large.Englisli carriage
horse was- appropriated to the use of 'the Cavalry;
but he.was sure every lion. Member would alloW
that such horses were not so fit for that service as
Smaller ones, N;Vl;ich. Were. better biNd. They
were perhaps more powerful, but they did itot
,possess blood 'to bear regular 'and hard
. 4
duty.': believed the present horses bettercal-

culated than any others for the service to which
they were :Tolled.
The Report was brought up and read a first
and second time.—Oh the motion, that the Reso-
lution far 81,444 men be agreed to—
Atr.Humerose to propose an Amendment, in
introducing which he felt it necessary to make
only one or two observations in -explanation of
what he' had stated an a former night. Sarre
expressions of his had been construed as reflec-
tions on the Guards, in disparagement 'of whose
merits he had said nothing. The estpreSsion
" idle Parade," which he had certainly used, had
no reference to the nature of the troops/ but, if
mote troops (of whatever, description, they
might be) were kept up than were necessary for
the wants of the country, the only ends they
'could serve were those of idle parade. sls to the
question of reliefs, it should have been reetillect
ed, that a part of the troops stationed in the West
Indies, being one-fourth of the whole, viz. the
Ist and 2d West India Regiments, an two bat-
talions of the 60the were never relieved: He was
convinced' that the vote which had been proposed
to. the House was more than the Safety of the
cenntry- required, or than its finances Could bear.
The principal reason which urged him to pro
pose a reduction, was the wish to make the Ma-
gistrates rely moreson Power forlhepre7
servation of the civil peace, instead of resorting to
the military, as'they now too frequently did.; -Of
which they had heard an instance that night, in
the Carlisle election. Soldiers were 113'N put
every where; they could not come to that House
without _passing through centiuels; and there
was now' t barrack under the same loaf With
them.—(Hear.)---It was true enough, as the Gal,
lent Member (Sir H. Hardinge) observed, that
the'GuardS had enough to do; and no wonder,
when the Government set themselves to find the.
necessary business for them.—(Hear.)--Au
j-ection had been made to his suegestion for al-
tering the pay of soldiers who might hereafter
be enlisted ; for (said the Noble Lord) would
you have soldiers with different rates of pay in
tire same regiment The Noble Lord Must know,
hat even now there was not a regiment in which
here were not soldiers enjoying
_different rates
of pay, those Who enlisted for limited service re-
ceiving an increase of pay aftera certain time.—
When they Were Fooking at the situation of the
soldier, they should look at the condition also of
the labourer, by the taxes upon whom lie was
maintained. He should propose as an Amend-
ment, that 71,4.11 be siibstituted for 81,444 men.
Colonel Devits said, that as the chief objec-
tion to redtietion had been the necessity of re-
liefs for foreign garrisons, he should show-that
the proposed reductions could be made without
taking from the troops a pplicable to reliefs. The
old colonies had now 17,000 men. In 1787 they
had 12,213, and in the latter half of 1792--
13,277. I f the garrisons of those colonies were re-
duced to the standard of 1787, 4700 ; if to that
of 1792,' 3,700 men might be reduced. At St.
Helena, the great establishment Was defended on
the ground of the propriety of allowing Bonaparte
considerable personal freedom. This feeling was
proper, but the object, as any one who knew the
island was aware of, Might be attained by half
the number of men. A battalion might thus be
saved there, and another from Malta. We had
now 4,000 cavalry more than in former- Peace
establishments ; he would propose to reduce one
regiment. There would then be left only 3,339
men to make up the 10,000, who 'it was obvious
Could be reduced without affecting the. reliefs,
When the garrisons themselves were 'propor-
tionately diminished.
Mr. R. MARTIN said, that as the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen,(Mr. Hume), who might be
called the leader of the Opposition, had proposed
to reduce the pay of the soldier
.to one-half,
would he get his party to pledge -themselves to
that measure ? .
Mr. IfuNt-r.: observed, the Hon. Member for
Galway had applied terms to him which he was
not warranted in applying, and had pet into his
mouth words which he (Mr. IL) had never ut-
tered. He never spoke of any such thing. as re-
ducing the pay of the army to one-half.
Mr. U. MARTIN apologised to the House. for
having misunderstood the -Hon. Member.
Mr. UTC HINSON observed, that when the
House had been voting an extravagant 'Estimate
oh an inipoverished 'country, lie did not envy the
task of the 'Hon. Member for Galway, who en--
deavoured to turn into ridicule the efforts of
those who had exerted themselves to lessen the
burthens of the people: He was proud of being
one of those who had joined in those efforts ; he
acknowledged no leader; he had looked at the
distresses- of the people, the state of the financer
and the volley 'of the country, and he declared,
as a man of honour, 'that he believed the vote to
be extravagant and unnecessary.
Mr. R. M tS' explained.—After a few words
from Sir R. FERGUSSON',
Mr.--BANKES said, 'that if he had been in the
House last night; he should have supported the
reduction of 5000 men, and he Should leave sup-
ported 'a still further reduction, but for the
greater number of men required for reliefs under
the present system of enlistment, ThiCh he sup-
posed was good, because it was praised by those
who were better acquainted With those mat-
ters than he. He understood, that wheh the
Estimates Were -,brought forward a feW years
ago, only 3000 men Were set dawn 'for re-
liefs, and 'if he mistook not,' no' longer ago
than 1819, the establishment was not !so large
as it was now: He was the m3t'e urgent for
reduction on account of the state of the coeetry7
Mr. 'WILBERFORCE said, he could not but
think that the Military establishment would bear,
reduction.' He had no doubt that the Ministers
had made inquiries with a view to reduction, but
it was Well-known that the heads of military, as
well ses:all other establishments, to see
them flourishing and well appointed. if the force
were now reduced, the country would bear more
willingly an augmentation in time ofethirgency,
•Mr. W. SMITH was 'convinced a great redqc-
than might be. made in our military establishments.
If we looked around us to see from what nation
any attack Could by a7-ly possibility bessea:le an
our -Colonies, we shottld see that the mere forms
of 'garrisons in them woulg be si4cient. The

‘Vere expbsed to no danger in present° or in pros-
pect°. By reducing the number of the troops in
the Colonies th'e' incidental eXpences would be
more than proportionably diminished.
Lord PALmEna-rom said, that with regard' to
the excess of the present Feitimates over the year
1819, it consisted, first, in the augmentation of
the force necessary for New South NVa les, which
had been increased from 600 to 1000; and se-
condly, in the addition of two Veteran Battalions
for the Garrison of Heligoland.. The latter
arrangement had been made in consequence
the greet inconvenience of removing other regi-
ments to and from that station. The propo-
sition of the Honourable Member for reduc-
ing 10,000 men, would leave in appearance a
force of 71,000. But. he wished to call the at-
tention of the House to the actual state in which'
the service would be left. -As he stated en
a former evening, th-ere:were now 4,500 inert
afloat upon reliefs. There Were besides 4,400
non7elfectives. There were alsq 1300 recruits
unfit for service, making altogether a total of up-
wards' of 10,000 men ; 'so that Hon_ Members by
voting 70,000 men, would in effect he girving
the GOvernment only 00,000. The 10;000 now
proposed- to be reduced we're, in fact, not-el-Ter-
tive,and.consequently a vote' for the reduction
of 10,000 Would be a substantial reduCtiim of
20,000 from the proposed 70,000. • - •
Mr. CALcrtArt said, that with respect,tO thv
last observation of -the Noble Lord, shonhf
only observe, that if 'the' people gave .the•Gue
vernment a certain establishment, it was their
fault if they did not keep it up. They
received the moneys, and therefore had no
to say that they did .not apply it. flut wlta4
was the question before the. House ? TheY
adied for a given number and it was proposed to
give them less, still leaving themliucluding the
military establishment of Intla),a force of 91,`,154:
:then for a peace establishment. Now, was it
possible that any reasonable man.couhl call this
niggardly allowance? Vpon ttaiS subleci, how-
ever, he would, not go 'into detail, as that had
been done more satisfactorily' by Ills .Hou. f;rienti
the Member for A berdeen brut he prepared It
statement some years since, which he would hator
to the Noble Lord. if he thought it north 'fii4
acceptance.-- (Lord Castlereagh. bolelle
had clearly shewn in that statement that a* coos:-
derable reduction rni,7lit be made in oar miritarl
establishment, without at all interfering with its
. . .
genera! efficacy. '•
Strangers were theo ordered to withdraw., 3T13
the House divided upon the amendment,_ whet
there -appeared—
the Amendment.
Against it

.........

Ahjerii, • -• •
The other, Resolutious w(4e. Wed Eigrte'ti-tof
and leave wa's given to bring in a Bill futiodca
upon the Report.
Lord A L'1"1-10RPI,.."a):7sN'eld'Irth(e(s4).tet.IiIi.trSclrt.aclingoir.11'e:-.-
Courts Bill. • •
Mr. LO('K[IART agreed in the principle of the 'Bill,, take away from the Coot t of Kieues. Bench the power, of (FY'
log- certain petty eatlSeS; thott4ll he agreed icrllfe 4Pr'";
Cyle of thez 13111, he was by no nleants Clear the plart'o'
tit Nolt!e Lord, in erseatUig a new Trihunal, was he wtYle
best adapted to carry that principle into ctre..et. flieetial
that the 'Quarter SeSsieens be a mock' better •Thlitiw
fur trying causes to the a,toctlit of !al. lie- slouch! not or-
timer the :.,econd readier.: of the Bill, bat in a fortiretsr
shantel either oppose the Bill in totO, ortrairsfii
lion to the Quarter Sessions, ers a neW Tribunal wauld
satisfy the People. . .
F. PA Ll'efEEl. said, that as a Nttwi'strate'attehitintLt• tri"
the atldifi'onal
• • Mt. C_IIET,VVY:seIiE stated the Qoarter S-ssion,.
otcrlntrtiteavd, and if adchtioeit.,l horth,.„,
imposed, it would .13e• necessary tee hart-a stipeoutiary N145„,t
(racy, the greatest e:-i1 that e (told the country.
OppOSt that part of. the 818 that went to impose 31'1'1
bort hens oli lb!, !Nil& nty: .
Titv A'l TORNIf.Y. GENERAL t lie, Bill eiltssi,j 1r
able, thong!' be-MANI not oppose it in this staze; i
„,y
of a Parristee otliciating such a i2onitt wretriet fie •bk-'°",',;:tid
that expeoce, .together with that
be very consideralole. Such C.ourts would Ltive rise to al'„,j
-set of .4tloc Who .wozild attend solely to such Coit"' ~
;„to
great enr.oetragem ent would he a frortle-d to litigation, t .11
the cheapness with ethielr it could be cat ried un.
was exceptionable in all its (ivtalts ; and to he of 'illy
roust c•oru new Bill i,flhe Cntr.mirtea. Lund I:111011M said, as the Hon. Genth.""l 118'; r,
jecled to ?Inc prini;iple of the Bill tie did not wish Ott Ku into
the Committee to fill tip the blanks.: fie fully agreed -lit "4144
had been staled, that it wasinipossihirt i ills Ow any adilitiov''
burthen On the Quarter Session;. He should have Is.:4'l'fr,
tir' that Counsel shoot& be employed if the parties •
had. received a letter front a G,:nitletnan, station": that
been cast in minis. in tine Corn's. Court, the hill of 11'1
attorney haul- c,inic to ,561 end his OM! -,,twr"t! ltd. Loa
el) a state of the lay: loudly called for Altetatiun
reformat ion. .
Mr: CA.NIPI3I/..LL was in favour of ..he Bill, is•hrob- he
would he: allowed to, gee to a Commutter•
and
0 f
al
sci,,,,ifl:j,
it, fear., the practice pf the he riff Loutts In
r1•:.1::r
,should vote for the Bill going into the Conintiiter, ‘vi
view to its amendment. .
'
MANSF( ELI). stated 11:e county rates So he very' It
'and i"lb' c"'"!ty if Leicrovi never f.y.ceeduti a polity i" Ctte
pumrl. v. as i” favonr of the Bill. , for
The Bill was Coen reee-el a second time, and corrtilil"
Monday: as Was the Pliblie•Notaty!s

WISH 11'1'1-IES. . , I*W:es
Wire order of the day,fOrthe second reading or tc''et
LrFtsmg Rill (fre.larol) was moved liv Sir H. PARSP"'„, •
Sir= 6E0143E. HILL objected to the .Jiwoud readiir4 --''''
The 13d ought first to he printed. "
Mr. SPRP,',M RICE sups,...dird the second reading, as P,;'.
posed by Iris Honourable friend. He wout6 not oll'i“"sti;);9..
measure if he did not know that it Was it' 'I I I the
"--b'S greca ) e u
of the Clergv of Ireland.
Mr: LOCKFI A R.T-tinew that the Bill was corseni3llo tie
wishes of the Clergy.of Ireland,.arid believed that its opr"'"'"
wou,d lie favoriratile to the public at iar4e. itl A
Mr. '.. N r.... r 6 AR! wished tl6l the .1-lill.Shonld h.' "' ,i
(1
seeolol time Ibis ~) fortnight ; arid !hot it should 4e r"JHR.
in the mean time. , 5,,
Sir HENRY PARNELL thou:tilt I.',at it would he u'„''',;, ,t 2
deirr the printing ofthe-Bill nog; rafter if bad g""e tr"f - '-
this Conim it tee. • .
Mr. C. 11 ITTCI.III,NiSON was of Ihe same (;pinion.
Mr Cr)r It'PEN.IY sulnoirted that. the Bill 41Ould "'fly be
d
upon an iniderstaroling that it would be re
read a second time, aird'comruitted ; arnt afterwarits prUlte t/
A conversation then ensued between '.,,1r. B. Gurd"",,b,.r
Peter Moore, Sir Geor,.;e flill, and Lord Althorp,:,,
s_,
which the Bil was read r..second tinse.—Cusatrnittetion4""
day next. •
Jered
..), '
c A nin,:ll Mutiny Bill was read 'a first tune, and or
to be read a second time on Nfoorlay-nest. .- and
The reioaining Orders of,the.Day were-then disposed- o(,s.
the horse Adjourned at HALF-I'a N% ELY-8 '''Cluc
'CIDCIC
..HIC:tiIWAY Roßnuity.---A.bout elvven °
ster
on Wednesday niiiht Mr. N‘rairT.F.H.EAD/ ama
ed by,-
.., 1 .conimitted.
Nu..
ova's stopped
r. !wino-ton
bwo-footpads on tile road between -ke ts
r•atTenter. residino- at Waiworth
robbed
They TO
Cross and Lambeth Workhouse.
two fiat
;)onus{ of his pocket book which contained/several
besides
pound Bank of Endand notes,
..-.
bAls and miners. . -

Print-cd y .T. CARSTA !AS, of No. 21, C.; rec.
Orniond-str!ct,. Clue,F.ti-square ; and published by i•t•'•
of No. 77 South Afolton-street, tTin 11.4
Orr No. 112, Str.i.nd'; it•-e ADV ETt'l 2-; Tit
0 r,33 a 3; LE:I riR t.c.'(l-K);'--- rinrst
•

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