The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-24 00:00:00

SHIRE RAILWAY.

Mr. J. Barker called, and re-examined by Mr. COcxauaH—
There are fifty-two furnaces near the proposed exten-
sion of the Great Western line, which manufacture 5,000 tons
of pig iron per week. Close by the proposed London and Birming_
ham extension there were eleven furnaces, manufacturing but
1,000 tons, There are thirty thousand tons of pig iron made
weekly in Great Britain. South Wales produces ten thousand
tons, Staffordshire nine thousand tons, and Scotland seven thou.
sand tons; the remainder came from various parts of the country.
The cost of bringing iron from South Staffordshire by canal
was 19s. and 20s. per ton ; and by railway the cost
was 21. per ton. This was on the London and Birmingham
line. That railway now takes it at 1/. 3s. per ton, and that is
enormously high. By the construction of the Great Western line
into the South Staffordshire districts, a saving of several shillings
per ton will be the result. Witnessed the carriages invented by
Mr. Brunel for the change of gauge. Saw them at work that morn-
ing at Paddington. Never before witnessed so well managed an
affair. The transhipment alas done with the greatest ease.
Thirty-two tons of coals were transhipped from the broad to the
narrow and back again in less than seven minutes. It was done
without the least inconvenience, and was, in fact, the most inge-
nious contrivance ever witnessed for the purpose. The general
feeling of the iron trade in South Staffordshire was in favour of a
line for the iron districts. As far as the feeling for both
lines went, thinks it is equally balanced ; his own
feeling was in favour of a competing line, for with-
out a competing line sufficient carriages would not be
found for the mineral traffic. Was of opinion that the mineral
traffic did not pay so well as a line where general traffic would be
taken up, and therefore, where one line existed they would charge
exorbitantly, or supply so few carriages that the trade would not be
benefited by the line. Has no interest in the Great Western more
than any other.
Mr. James Boydel, examined by Mr. Coescaunig—ls an iron-
master at Oak Farm, near Dudley, and employs 1,500 men. Con-
sumes 2,000 tons of coals a week in the manufacture of iron.
Could work coals for sale if he had the means of rail-
way communication to take it south and west. The Great
Western line was decidedly the best line for his part of the country.
Had sold coals to a considerable extent at one time, but from the
great want of railway communication, it could not be continued
with advantage, and it was, therefore, given up. The broad gauge
would be the greatest benefit to the iron and coal.masters. The
broad gauge weuld be of advantage for carrying large goods. As
an iron manufacturer had had orders for large boilers,
and was obliged to send them home in parts, and
men to put them together. On a broad gauge line they would be
able to sent theta home in a finished state without the expense of
sending workmen. Saw the carriages just constructed by Mr.
Brunel at work this morning at the Paddington station of the
Great Western line. They answered admirably, the transhipment
was made without any delay, and from what he witnessed, he was
satisfied there would arise no inconvenience whatever in the ge-
neral workings of the gauge.
Mr. CUCKBURN thought the Committee could not do better than
witness the experiment at Paddington. They would then see a
very important feature of the inquiry in practical operation.
The CHAIRMAN did not think that any practical good could re-
sult from the Committee seeing the experiment. He thought
it better that the parties on both sides should have their engineers
present, and their evidence before the Committee would be of great
value in explaining the nature of the carriage.

Mr. G. B. Thorneycroft examined by Mr. CocitaunN—ls an
ironmaster at Wolverhampton. Manufactures four hundred
tons weekly, and is connected with many large iron-
works in Wales. The Great Western line was the
least adapted for the iron trade of South Staffordshire. The broad
gauge was most undoubtedly the best for the carriage of minerals.
He liked the broad gauge best, because it carried the most
goods, and with the greatest safety. Thought the majority
of the ironmasters could not but give the preference to
the Great Western line, from the great accommodation
it gave. The transhipment of goods was managed in
an experiment he witnessed that day at the Paddington station
without the slightest difficulty. It was done with expedition and
♦ery little labour, and the goods were not injured, nor even dis-
turbed. The experiment satisfied him that no inconvenience
would arise from the change of gauge. No Act of Parliament
would set a fair rate of charges on a line of railway—
it was only to be done by a competing line. A competing line
would ensure eheapness and civility from the companies, and that
was what no Act of Parliament could do.

Mr. M. Graysbrook, examined by Mr. COCKIMEN—Is an iron.
master and glass.maker at South Staffordshire. The Great 'Western
line was the best adapted for the trade of South Staffordshire.; The
broad gauge would be best adapted to the trade of the county.
Had sent large quantities of glass by the narrow gauge, and had
lost much by the breakages, which very often occurred.
The damage was occasioned by the crates hanging over
the wheels of the narrow carriages, and coming in contact with
other carriages at stations. The motion of the narrow gauge was
so uneven that the shaking at times made the crates an entire
wreck. It sometimes happened that one crate of glass, worth 2.0/.,
was entirely damaged, and no compensation had been given by
the railway company. The motion of the broad gauge would be
so regular that no injury could take place, though the carriages
would have a much greater weight.
The witness was briefly cross-examined by Mr. COOKE.

Mr. Fardon, managing director of the British Alkali Works at
Stoke Priory, near Droitwich, was of opinion that the Great Western
line was the best adapted for the traffic of the county. The broad
gauge would answer well for the carriage of minerals. With the
advantage of a railway the mineral traffic would double in a very
short time.
At four o'clock the Committee adjourned till twelve to.morrow.

Group V.
NEWARK AND SHEFFIELD.

Members—The O'Conor Don (chairman), Mr. Davies, Mr.
Hope Johnstone, Sir Denham Norreys, and Sir John Rae Reid.
The Committee sat at twelve, and proceeded with the evidence
of Mr. R. Stephenson, en the part of the opponents of the Par.
liamentary line.

The witness was examined by Mr. TALBOT, Q.C.—He had seen
the plans and sections of the original acid of the amended line,
and he was decidedly of opinion that the amended line
would combine advantages which could not possibly be
given by the proposed line. Judging from the charac-
ter of the country, he should say—he was confident—that
the railway could not be constructed at the estimate laid down,
namely, 15,0001. per mile, neither could the railway, if constructed
according to the original plan, give such advantages to the coal
district as the amended one would, for the simple reason that the
summit levels in the latter case were much lower. His estimate
for a single line through this tract of country would be
700,0001., or for a double line 850,0e01. The quantity of
earthwork on the railway would be greater than on any other line
in the kingdom.
Mr. Swanick corroborated the evidence given by Mr. Robert
Stephenson.

Mr. Gibbs, the engineer to the projected line, was recalled, and
he said that, having carefully examined the alternative line, he was
of opinion that his own plan was preferable.
Mr. Sanderson proved the position of the coal measures, and that
the proposed railway would open them up much better than the
amended line could do.

Mr. Hawkshaw thought the difference of expense in the work.
ing of either the original line or the amended one would be very
trifling.

Mr. Dean thought the estimated cost of tunnelling by the
amended line was too low; instead of 301. he estimated it at 45/.
The Committee then adjourned.

Group L.
GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER, AND PORTSMOUTH
RAILWAY.

The Committee resumed this morning the consideration of the
South-Western Railway project.
Mr. Pardoe, the second in authority In Portsmouth Dockyard,
stated his conviction that the approach to Portsmouth by this line
would be more advantageous than the other line for the purposes of
the dockyard.
The Rev. John Burrell, rector of Portsea, stated that the ter-
minus, though at the extremity of Portsmouth, was centrically
situated with respect to the several portions of which the whole
town consisted.—To the cross-examination of Mr. Rawlinson, Mr.
Burrell said that the greater part of the traffic had heretofore gone
by way of Petersfield and Godalming to London. Part of it went
coastwise by Little Hampton, Shoreham, and Brighten. could
not say exactly what was the relative proportion of his property
which would be taken by either railway, both railways pass-
ing through his property; but the South-Western Com-
pany certainly took I more than the atmospheric com-
pany. To the question as to whether he was anxious
that the Company should purchase the property which
they proposed to take, he replied that it was not a fair inquiry and
refused to answer it. To another inquiry, Mr. Burrell replied,
that he was not cognizant of the fact, that Southampton had in-
jured Portsmouth since the formation of the railway to the latter
place.
To the re-examination of Mr. GURNEY, the witness replied that
he had heard that the South-Western Company had offered a branch
to Portsmouth, which had been refused. He had travelled fre-
quently through the country of the proposed atmospheric line, and
knew the whole of it, though unable to state precisely what was
the population of the several parishes through which it passed. The
line of the South-Western Company would injure ene of his farm.
more than any other.
Mr. B. Bramble, a surveyor, and a member of the Town Coun-
cil, stated that he was aware that the South-Western Company
had, some years ago, offered a terminus to Portsmouth, before the
line to Southampton was completed.
At this point of the proceedings

Mr. OSW/LD, M.P., one of the Committee, observed that
there was a difference on the maps on the table. That
which he had before him, and which he had received
frem the House of Commons, apparently carried on the atmospheric
line to Fareham, whereas that supplied by the agent of the Guild-
ford, Chichester, and Portsmouth line did not do so. Mr. Oswald,
therefore, wished to know which was correct, because the point
was important. On inquiry it was ascertained that the
mark on the map, which was coloured blue like the atmospheric
line, was a mistake of the colourer's. Mr. Montague Smith, one
of the counsel for the promoters, informed the Committee that
a similar mistake had Leen observed in the map supplied to
the London and York Committee, and it was known that
many of the maps of the Board of Trade were incorrect, and that
the map with which they were supplied, and on which the re.
mark arose, was the correct one. The atmospheric line, it was
agreed by both sides, did not pass to Fareham.
To the cross-examination of Mr. FLOOD, the witness stated that
a large meeting had been held in 1838, called by the Mayor, at
which the branch line to Portsmouth was rejected.
To the cross-examination of Mr. AUSTIN, Mr. Bramble stated
he did not know Woolner Wood, though he was aware that there
was wood about Mitcham and Petworth, but that the proprietor
refused to cut it, as it was mostly ornamental timber. He was
aware that there was a strong feeling in the people of Portsmouth
for the direct communication with London. He was not able to
say whether the steam trade to the Isle of Wight had increased,
though he did think that, if the French packets could be drawn to
Portsmouth, it would be an advantage.
To the cross.examination of Mr. RAWLINSON, Mr. Bramble stated
that the terminus of the atmospheric fine would be more conve-
nient to the borough generally, though not to the dockyard. He
was a contractor to supply Government with timber, sometimes
using as much as 10,0001. worth a year in the works he was en.
gaged upon. He also used a great deal of lime, which he had
hitherto got from near Petersfield, but he could get it from Cock.
ing, and would do so, although it was eight miles further, because
it was: cheaper. The cost of the lime used by him last year was
5001., and it would take about 250 W aggons to carry this quantity,
The atmosperic line might bring this cheaper than the other, but
he had no confidence that it would ever be made.
To the examination of Mr. AIONTA&VIC &env, Mr. Bramble
stated that at the meeting in 1837 the South-Western Company
proffered to make a line from Woking to Portsmouth, which the
Portsmouth people expressly refused, as they were at that time
decidedly in favour of a line to Horsham. The South-Western
Company had afterwards proposed to make a line to Portsmouth
from Bishopstoke, which was also refused. He believed
that the formation of a direct communication from London
to Portsmouth would occasion a greater intercourse with the Isle of
Wight. Portsmouth could certainly not support two integral
lines. The French packets bad never come to Portsmouth ast ails

though some'small vessels, Welly ier the seats a Mesi,hantlisi,
had passed from the town to the coast of Prance. With respect t•
lime, he conceived that the lime at Cocking was as goad as that at
Butsor_hill, and th etitwas without limit.
To the examination of Lord CLIVE, who was to-day in the
chair, Mr. Bramble stated he thought he must have been present
at two meetings. It was at the former of the two meetings that the
inhabitants or Portsmouth had refused the line from Woking to
Portsmouth. The timber they got from Sussex was chiefly beech
and oak, the oak being very fine, and both these could be readily
obtained by the •uildford and Portsmouth line.
Mr. Miller, a lighterman, on the Thames, stated that he knew all
the points on the river where the proposed termini met it. They
could go from the Pool to Vauxhall on the flow of the tide and
return on its ebb. The price to Vauxhall was eightpence per ton.
the price of carriage to Coldblow, on the Surrey Canal, was Sd. a
ton, exclusive of tonnage and canal dues, and waggon conveyance,
which was id. more. The depth of water in Deptford Creek was
a great inconvenience, and especially at neap tide, during which
the depth was not more than from seven to eight feet. Shipowners
would hesitate to send vessels of 100 tons or more there at that
time, and this evil was felt eight days out of every twenty-eight in
the year. There was also a swing bridge to pass, at which there
was a shilling toll.
To the cross-examination of Mr. Feooo, Mr. Miller stated that
he believed that little coal was carried on the Surrey Canal: except
that which was supplied to the South London Gas Company. There
was no other wharf until they got to Camberwell. The entrance
to the Grand Surrey Dock was 96 feet long by 26 feet wide, but
the dock itself was a confined space. There were warehouses there
for corn. A number of foreign timber ships discharged there.
This, as well as twe other docks, especially the East Country
Docks, which were not far from the Croydon Railway, but not in
conjunction with it, nor in any part so near as 2,000 yards to it.
To the re-examination of Mr. GURNEY, the witness stated that
there was a charge of I id. a ton on coals taken into the Grand
Surrey Dock, but there was an impediment to taking up ships
into the canal from the ice in winter, and the usual course was to
discharge in the Pool.
Mr. James Covington, a lighterman, who had a large number of
barges on the river, stated that his charge for lighterage from the
Pool to Nine Elms was 9d. a ton, and to Coldblow 15d. or 16d; but
there was a great objection to Deptford creek from its shallowness,
and there was a very considerable delay from the locks. In winter
there was also a great inconvenience from the ice ; but they had
always access to the wharf at Nine Elms, and the water. was always
deep enough for unlading.
To the cross-examination of Mr. FLOOD, the witness stated
that to a customer he should charge nothing additional for going
through the dock, though he should make a difference with a
stranger.

Mr. J. Chicor, a coal merchant, was well acquainted with the
wharf of the South- Western Company at Nine Elms. He had
sent from 9,000 to to 11,000 tons of coals there in the year, the
depth of water off the wharf being about eight feet in neap tides,
and twelve feet in spring tides. The facilities at Pope's wharf,
which is half a mile from Greenwich, were not nearly so great. He
thought the charges for lighterage were as the two last witnesses had
represented them; if anything, the charges were beyond the state.
talent of the witnesses, and certainly from his experience coals
could not be delivered either at Coldblow or at Pope's wharf with
nearly the same facility as at Vauxhall.
The announcement being made that the Speaker was at prayers,
the Committee adjourned till Monday.

(THURSDAY.)
Group B.
The Committee on assembling proceeded with the
LEEDS AND THIRSK LINE.

Mr. Grainger, the engineer, cross-examined by Mr. AUSTIN,
Q.C.—Witness has gone over the country to form estimates of the
expense. Declines to give in a detailed estimate. Can do so by
copying it from his book. That would show cuttings, embank.
ment, tunnels, and most of the slopes, and the prices.

➢lr. AUSTIN submitted to the Committee that it would save con.
siderable time if a detailed statement was furnished, instead of
having to extract the same result by a long series of questions.
The engineer objected, as if it got into the hands of a con-
tractor, it would enable him to estimate according to the en-
gineer's estimate.

The CommirreE thought they could not order any written state-
ment, as it was objected to on the other side.

Cross.examination resumed—The cuttings for two miles are on
a slope. Had obtained the level by taking the depth of the centre
line. Has compared the country with the section. Was to have
consulted two contractors, but no contract has been concluded.
Has surveyed the country north and south from Leeds to North-
allerton, arid Poole and Weatherby west and east.
By Mr. WHITEHURST, Queen's Counsel—Has examined the soil
in Bramholt, of which the principal part is sandstone. It is not a
solid bed, but consists of large blocks. Has examined the springs
at Bramholt, of which there are three or four. Two other gentle-
men have examined that part of the line, Mr. Jerdein, and Mr.
Sopworth. Has made five borings. The second boring is about
half a mile from the first, and the others about 500 or 600 yards
apart. One borehole is opposite Bramholt.hall. When that bore-
hole was making one or two wells became dry.
At this stage, Mr. OVEREND, for the promoters, proposed certain
terms to Mr. Whitehurst ; but that gentleman stated that, appear-
ing as he did by order of the Lord Chancellor to protect the estate
of a lunatic, and having no power to take any sum of money, he
only sought to be placed in as good a situation as before.
. _

Examinatien resumed—The tunnel commences near the first
borehole, and there is a cutting of 78 feet 10 inches, about 5-Bths
of a mile. The cuttings at the other boreholes are 130, 216, 270,
and 72 feet respectively. There are three or four springs in the
northern extremity of the tunnel. The tunnel would probably
affect to some extent all the springs in the neighbourhood. Is
not aware of any proposal having been made to the Leeds Water-
works Company for the conveyance of water to Leeds. The
width of the four permanent shafts In the tunnel will be 30 feet in
diameter. Is not aware of any means of preventing the drainage
of the springs by the construction of the tunnel. It would be
practicable to put a pump at the end of the tunnel and force the
water up to the highest level of the township. It is impossible to
tell what effects will arise to the springs until actually tried.
By Mr. Sergeant BELLasts—The branch connecting the line
with the Leeds and Bradford line quits the main line at a dis-
tance of miles from Leeds. That branch runs chiefly through
Lord Cardigan's property. The gradient is partly lin 33, in 1 in
102, and partly level. It is a descending level to the Bradford
line. The gradient lin 33 continues for one mile and a quarter,
and will be worked by an assistant engine, Another branch has
been abandoned, which was to run through Lord Cardigan's pro-
perty. The main line also runs through Lord Cardigan's property
for two miles and half. Part of that property consists of woods,
but not ornamental. The cost of the main line from the point
whence branches the Leeds and Bradford line, and the Leeds
station, about four miles and three.quarters, will be about
120,0001. The reason for making an entire line to Leeds,
parallel with the Leeds and Bradford line, was the difference of the
levels. The excavations and embankment on the main line are
4,353,g05 cubical yards,
Mr. Sergeant BELLASIS then inquired the price per cubical yard
of embankments at certain spots.
Mr. OVEREND objected that an answer to such a question would
compromise the interests of the Company.
The Committee decided that the question might be answered.
The witness then said the cutting would be Is. 2d. and Is. 4d.
per yard.

The witness was then most minutely examined upon the whole
of the individual works to be executed en the line, and the rela.
tive estimated prices.
Mr. HALL, on the part of the Leeds Waterworks Company, said
that he was quite satisfied with the protective clauses to be in-
serted by the promoters. .

Mr. James Fenton, civil engineer, was of opinion that the line
laid down by Mr. Grainger is the best that has been suggested,
and was perfectly satisfied with the estimates.
Mr. C. Vignolles, civil engineer, examined by Mr. BAINES—
Has been over the Leeds and Thirsk line, and over the line sug-
gested to the east, and considers Mr. Grainger's as the best, forming
a link of communication with the north, the interest of Leeds, and
the western districts of the West Riding. It will afford better
accommodation to Knaresborough than the Pill- moor scheme.
Ripon is ou the line, which goes right up to Thirsk. Has gone
carefully over the estimates, and is quite satisfied of their suffi-
ciency. The cross-examination of this witness elicited no point
of importance.
Mr. J. Evans said he had been a railway contractor for ten years,
and had been engaged on the Manchester and Leeds, and other
lines to a considerable extent. Has examined the estimates of this
line, and would be happy to take contracts at the prices, and has
signed a bond to that effect.
Mr. J. Bray, also a railway contractor, was similarly satisfied with
the estimates of Mr. Grainger, and had signed a bond agreeing to
perform the work at his prices.
Mr. Cooper, land-surveyor, stated the value of the land to be
taken by the main line to be 64,8491., and of the whole, including
the Leeds station, 104,0001.
The Committee at this point adjourned until to-morrow (this
day), at twelve o'clock.
The Committee re.assembled yesterday at twelve; Mr. P. M.
Stewart in the chair.

The first witness examined this morning was Mr. Miller, the
engineer, who corroborated the evidence given yesterday by other
engineers as to the capabilities of the line and the propriety of the
estimates.

He was cross.examined by Mr. WADDINGTON, but his cross•
examination was frequently interrupted by the CHAIRMAN, who
said that what he was stating the Committee had heard repeatedly
before.

Mr. EDDISON, the solicitor to the Bill, deposed to the number of
petitions presented in favour of that line, and as to' the respectabi.
lit( of the petitioners. The petition from Leeds had been signed
by 3,600 out of 4,000 of the constituents.