The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

h,111:5% notice. And, no doubt , the same scene
'ich. occurred at Manchester would have been
."
7'o if any resistance were offered. He did not
:"Y, indeed,. his decided and uniform opinion
'till), that such meetings were highly dangerous,
"wise, and impolitic. They were of all things
ft"st pernicious to the cause of Pat liamentary Re-
irib• Indeed, if Ministers wished to injure that
-B"se, they could (to nothing more effectual for
I"ePtirpose than to encourage such meetings to
o;4, eMble as often as they pleased. The Worthy
'II 41erman proceeded to say, that the best way
° Put down large. meetings was to conciliate
'lle people. If such men as Earl Fitzwilliato
:ent frequently among she-Kople,and encouraged
ulittsi to state their grievances, the influence of the
inerant orators would he extingOished. . But, in-
t'ul of conciliation, the people were met with
""V thing to exaerate them; their petitions for
leli4 from taxation were answered by fresh taxes
iptheir remonstrances against oppression were
lied to by suspending the Habeas Corpus Act.
niiis was not the way to soothe the passions .of
,-.le People. They should be encouraged to pre-
-eilt their petitions to the House. They might
Mistaken, perhaps, now and then ; but that
as no reason why their prayers should not he
Ittended to, and their statements investigated. At
4 events, the House, by doing so, would satisfy
;thiernselvee and the country that they had perform-
° their duty. Meetings were called in different
ii. 444 of the country to sign declarations of boy-
,,-"hY. What was this but to throw suspicion
iftip loyalty of those who were not present
' such assemblies ; and be could not help re-
-ostking that the signatures to those declarations
' loyalty chiefly belonged to persons who were
lie t
Nieeeting the public money, either directly or
'Melt • their relatives and friends. With the
we
:)Ple he had peculiar opportunities of being
Iheli aegoattoed ; •and he could assure the House
il"" the classes generally supposad to be com-
rsed within the tertuf " People," were generally
It%
:-sessed of such a portion of information and
ttelligence, 'as would appear extraordinary to
Y Houonrable Members. They were not to
e tatimia„ted ont of their rights ; and no peo-
lila
1- .in the world were more sensible than
al'iell to kind and lenient treatment. The Re-
il'irrn winch was sought for by several Meet-
,ll:s, was in his opinion pernicious. At the
k4,ll`e time it .. should be recollected, that
ki,l'ung opinioirs in favour of it were given by
11,:i"
1: Y
tt venerable. authorities, amongst whom he
iname Sir R. Raymond, and Mr. Granville
'!'feared
than whom a more honest man never
before the tribunal of his Alaker. The
llto,
--"tuy Alderman- proceeded to contend in favour
41flie respect due to the petitions of the people,
Cciti to:the rights•u'hich belonged to them by the
ti, 48(111140n. The Honourable Member insisted
Ot if ei . ) measures as those now ptoposed were
tiilught ' 'efore Parliament, in the time of
. even
brat I. they would he indignantly reject ed ;
r
4'4 it" was a mere delusion to le.tve it as a mat-
((.4. discretion to the, Sheriffs and Municipal
Cil'orities to summon meetings. He temeni-
tried how difficult it was in the City of London
target the Lord Mayor to agree to requisitions
, the most obvious public exigencies. And now,
-ass
if yaord—(A loud laugh.)—l beg pardon—lndeed
IN: tell Iwo a much greater error than this, I ant
to ", the House would pardon me. Referring
be ''ie papas on the table, he said, that wheu
sh, iltst received them, be anxiously looked
fp;r •them to see if they contaitted any io-
ta itistion about the late Lord Mayor's fa•
kaa4lB Plot for setting fire to the City of London,
4e Murdering all- the inhabitants. When he
tw.ls' that an in.lividual in authority was induced
ve credit to such a statement, he could not
tittta'aPPrehend that other persons might be prac-
tilt', on in the same manner. As to these papers,
hiniefore, they would go for nothing with
p, The The districts. chiefly referred to in these
I,ilrrs contained upwards of a million of inha-
taelilti, and from there the army was principally
%at.td. But if the army stood now in need of an
it )Iston, how could they look to these districts for
ia„ 41 Was time, indeed, that they were told by an
I,^te'tiotis person—" You will find death more
bornl4able and less certain in the army than at
e ..
iiire, • But how could Government rely on men
itt 'ecl with 'such principles as bound them to
tet:lii"non purpose i lie thought that the pre-
lie:e. of Magistrates 'at parochial meetings ins-
-14:1; a restriction upon the free opinions of the
14 Pie. But" if it was made imperative upon them
titi4eill meetings, and to preside at them, they
14 hit be vested with a discretionary power, as
latteetMitting individuals to be present as mere
the t4lots. Who, however, that remembered
Cl4iNnner"in which the Slave Trade was exa•
41115..4, could fail to regret that any impediment
tsl,4lhrown'in the way of meetings, which were
titil ii.ble Of working the m ost solid benefits to
tuit'intl ? The Worthy Alderman, after some
left I'l' observations, concluded by recommend-
t4 tel the Aristocracy to conciliate the petal le
1 ...`".
Ilie"11 theM back to their duty—to rally robot!
ItstaonstifotiOn—and they would then have a
tenjt,l)?pill4tion, prepared and resolved to de-
, iki "tr country.
viiter.' WH.sina (one of the Members for London)
ttat'eta from the Honourable Member who had
4.14(1 411 him, upon the question before the
iltieii.• He thought that the loyal meetings,
fti,:i siveie alluded to, were necessary, because
it'ltt',:l bad not been held, and if they had not
'lta rel their opinions, it might be supposed that
Ntiesolotions of the Radical assemblies expres-
Pia ie unanimous opinion of the people of Eng-
g • la
,144,.. le was ready to admit that many persons
tliitlnvent on Government signed the loyal decla••
kit) s' But be thought that this was a very jos-
-41 le U
Ott It se of that patronage which all Ministers
1;411 ate, and he doubted not that it the gentle.
het° the other side of the House, were in
,
' Iney would exercise their influence in the
11, ,', way ,„.
ei-tti • 5.--v-sear !)—He did not mean to enter
(,i°11411410 the measures before the House. He
a the that they were necessary to the stability
q - Lon • •
disc et i stitution, and that they ought to en-
ivst if 'east for 4Or 5 years. He was convinced,
.1:1111a ,they shorteoed the number of years they
a ilitt '"id it necessary to increase the army still
herds."O r „ ,
-on gentlemen were aware that was an
hitt
'4'''' Atilich bas necessarily attended with
rr D

Pri•
Iti
,d,

Mr. D. W. IL:la-tot was of opinion that the
new measures would rather augment. firma allay
the popular discontent, and therefore he should
vote against them altogether. The true remedies
in his opinion were the diminution, or rather
equalization of taxation, by lighteoing the burden
which pressed unequally On the poor, soda change
in the representation of the country.-- He thought
it ought to be clearly shewn, that -what had in-
duced the Grand Jury of Lancaster to throw. out
the bills, was not that they had refused to bear evi-
dence, that they had not, for instance, come to
the determination of not receiving the evidenee of
Derbyshire at all. His view of the question of
Reform was, that there was not a Member of that
House who ought not, at some time or other, to
be sent back to a certain portion et the people to
whom he should be responsible and render an ac-
count of his conduct,
Mr. Gaonot: Lai spoke in favour of an eqoa-
lization of Taxes and a rational Reform. He coo-
tended, that the former did not operate equally on
our artificial system. The 'faxes on. Leather, Salt,
and Malt should be repealed, and a powertoliv
graduated Property Tax, affecting immense for-
tunes in an increased ratio, be sobvituted. He
dwelt at some length on, the ignoring of the BiHs
by the • Grand Jury, and on the supposition that
they had refused to hear certain evidence, and
rested on their oaths to prevent deVelouements,
though inquiry was imperiously demanded. He
noticed that the first and most _threatening letters
from the Manchester Magi-arates, among•the do-
cuments, were dated the Ist of Jt.oy, twelve clays
before Parliament separated, and et Ministers
had taken no notice of it ; meaning rather to ex-
asperate the people as an excuse for unconstitu-
tional measures. He professed himself rtn advo-
este for Reform, not radical (though he did nor
esteem that so odious as was represented), but
such as would send every Member at a certain,
period, three years, before a popular body of con-
at ituents, to judge c-f his conduct.
Lord STANLUY was so pointedly alluded to by
the last speaker, and what he had said had been
so misconceived, he would not say misrepresent-
ed, that it became necessary for him to re-state a
few words. He had never said or thought that
the oath of a Grand Juror protected him from
divulgiug every ihing he knew, when called on
by a Como of Law.by Parliament, or by any com-
petent authority. The Hon. Gentleman had put
matters before the House which he had extracted
from Hunt's Petition, asserting, among other
things, that the Grand Jury not having evidence
before them, bad acted as a powerful conspiracy
of local authority. Presuming on this, the Hon.
Member had repeated facts which neither rested
on evidence nor authority.-.--(dear, hear !)—He
therefore begged leave to take his old line, as he
felt still bound by the same oath ; till legally re-
leased from which, be could not meet imputatunts
however injurious or unjay.
Mr. W. BOOTLE asked if the Hon. Gentleman
bad said that the Grand Jury refused to hear the
evidence of Mr. Derbyshire ?
Mr. LAMB said, he had only declared that in his
opinion it was necessary to know on what grounds
the Grand Jury had come to a decisiou.—(Cry of
Hear ! from the Ministerial side.) ..
.Mr. BOOTLE would tell the Hon. Gentleman.
so notch, that none of the allegations against the
Jury were founded in fact, and consequently node
of his inferences. correct. No evidence was re-
fused, and the impression that it had been, ought
not, as after the Hon. Gentleman's denial he
trusted it would not, go forth to the country,.
Mr. LAMB again. explained. . . .
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON entered into a loogalafertee
of the Speech of Sir R. Wilson, osod. asked if the
Bill now under discussion was to be extended to
Ireland ?

Mr. C. GRANT, in a low tone, answered in the
affirmative.
•
Mr. HUTCHINSON then called on the House to
recollect in what manner the Noble Lord had in-
troduced the measure, thereby deceiving 70 Irish-
men into a vote in support of. it,. on the supposi-
tion that their country was not to be visited by it.
He accused Ministers of using false colours and of
all manner of crooked policy.—(Considerable
coughing having ensued, the Hon. Memberaleclar-
ed, that so often as he was interrupted he would be-
gin again, and lengthen his address tenfold.)--He
again made a passionate attack upon Ministers,
and especially upon the Noble Lord (Castlereagh),
who was not in his place, for driving the people
into acts of violence, and for iNideavooring to
drown the voice of those who stood up for their
liberties in that House. He asserted that Minis-.
.ters had not saved the nations of Europe as they
pretended. Their policy was as much detested
abroad as at home. The nations of Europe hail
saved theaselves when the ambition of Napoleon
wrought his downfall. `Ministers had nothing to
do with it, and all their acts were disgraceful.
Mr. BARHAM contended, that the English de-
' racter had not stints so low on the Continent as.the
last speaker represented. He declared himself
an advocate for inquiry into die transactions at
Manchester. It was a debt owing to the people ;
the loyal and sound part of the population was
anxious to know whether the meeting was legal,
whether the Magistrates had done only their slutv,
whether the Yeomanry had committed •any wan-
ton violence, and whether the Constitution had
been violated ? It was the chief subject •of
anxiety throughout the realm ; he would not
vote against - the Bill if it were confined .to
the disturbed districts, and limited in its
duration ; at the same time, he was con-
vinced that the power of holding public Meet-
ings, as protected by the old Constitution, was •
conducive to the greatness and prosperity of the
country. If a portion of the people were disaf-
fected, the extending the Bill to others was a
strange way to conciliate ; for • his part, he
thought it was holding out a premium for dis-
order.—(Hear !)---The country had grown great
under the exercise of the privilege which was now
about to be subverted. He appealed to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, if he thought the Pro-
perty Tax would have been repealed, if, on that
occasion, the people had been prevented
. from.
exercising the right"
of petition. In memorable
instances, the sentiments of the people, when ge-
nerally expressed, had been acted upon by Par-
liament. It was so in respect to the peace with
America, and the .war with France. It was a

right, therefore, which ought not lightly to be
infringed upon.
Mr. Hum-Itssort rose in explanation, and
said, that he did not assert that the English cha-
racter was degraded on the Continent, but that
the character of the English Cabinet was odious
and detestable to every honest man on the Conti-
nent of Europe.
Mr. J. S. Cox spoke in support of the principle
of the Bill.
Mr. J. SMITH said, that great injury had been
done the public 'credit by the which had
been falsely spread, exaggerating the 'state of the
Country. Ile would not accuse 'Ministers of
having originated these reports, hut he believed
that their measures gave great countenance to an
unfounded alarm. .Foolish and ridiculous stories
had been propagated, which could not for a mo-
ment hear the scrutiny of sobet• investigation.—
The lion. Member then took notice of the
statement which had been made in another place
on Friday last by a Noble Duke, (Northumber-
land) by which it was made to appear, that there
were 100,000 men in .the district between the
Wear, the Tyne, and Carlisle, ready to rise in
arms. He (Mr. Smith) thought that the district
so marked out, comprised more than a part of
Durham and the south of Northumberland ; and
that the entire of the population of the whole of
these two counties, along with Cumberland did
not exceed, in the year 1811, 480,000 persons
to which if 70,000 were added, he could
by, no means allow that 100 thousand per-
sons capable of bearing arms should be
found between the Wear, the Tyne and Carlisle,
even although the clergy were to he included.—
(A laugh.)—And even the Lord Lieutenant, ye.!
the statement, improbable as it was, had occa-
slotted a most unpleasant sensation, it had occa-
sioned a great alarm, produced a fall in the funds,
and caused people to sell property here, to remove
their capital to a foreign county. He declared
that he had not a Shilling in any foreign funds,
and that he would never abandon the vessel what-
ever the danger might be, while there was a
plank to swim upon.—(Hear !)—These alarms.
lie deprecated, because they injured the best in-
terests of the country, and prevented the rise of
exchanges, without which the country could never
escape from the calamities with which it was
threatened. lie expressed his doubts also of the
truth of the report which spoke of-`20,000 men in
Rutland and 50,000 in Bedfordshire ready to join
the disaffected.
A MEMBER, whose name could not he learnt,
said that his reason for giving his support to
Ministers that night was, that he considered the
Constitution to be in danger, and he was sworn to
defend it.
Anotiree. MEMBER, also unknown in the Gallery,
was desirous that an inquiry should be entered
into respecting the .Manchester transactions, and
hoped that the Bill would not be allowed to ex-
tend its operation beyond the term of one year.
Sir ROBERT HERON was SO completely opposed
to the Bill before the House, that he could not con-
sent to its action for a sin= 1<• day ; and he thought
it impossible that he should be able. ;o bring his
mind to support any limitation whatever of it.
He was averse to teaching the people that the
Constitution-ofthe country was, on every emer-
gency-, to be set aside.—Un the Manchester tran-
sactions be should say bust a few words. He was
told not to prejudge the Magistrates; hut, as a Re-
presentative-of lice People, was he, he wonld ask,
to prejudge theirs ?—All that he could collect from
.the arguments he had hitherto beard respecting
the illegality of the meeting was, that its object.
Was Reform, and that that Reform was of a sedi-
tious kind. • ,
Sir CHARLES MONCK' felt great regret at the
alarming statements which had been made el-e-
-where, more especially as they had produced such
serious effects upon the public foods. He would
willingly discredit .the declaration, but be must
say, from his knowledge of
,the- person who was
reported to have twitle the original statement, ti6t
he had better opportuuities. of knowing the fact
than-. he (Sir
.Charles Monek) had. Certainly
there was no person who would feel more decided
abhorrence at snaking such a statement than he,
sinless he bad been 'coavioced that it was perfect-
ly welrfonnded.

Mr. 8120 NLOW, defended the conduct of him-
self and of other Irish 'Members who had voted
on the present occasioniwith Ministers', frOm the
imputations cast upon thein by" the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite (Mr. -Hutchinson), that they -were
deluded by .the Noble Lord, under the idea.,that
the measure would not extend to Ireland. He,
lon the contrary, maintained that their support
was given • tinder the .iiresistible conviction of
the necessity of the. measure, and that they came
from !emote; parts of the empire, under the in-
conveniences of the season of the year, to uphold
the 'Constitution, and prevent, so far as their
voice could go, this country from experiencing
the calamity which' Ireland had suffered by the
conflagration of a general rebellion.—(Hear.)
. Mr, 1-1 LITCHI NSON acknowledged that he bad
charged the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) with Ile-
ception towards the Irish Members, and declared
that he heard for the first time to-night that the
Bill was applicable to Ireland. The Hon. Mem-
ber was proceeding in the same strain, when
Lord CASTLEREAGH begged permission to say
one word in exculpation of what he had been
charged with. He observed, that when he intro-
duced tote Bill to the notice of the House, be had
expressly stated that it was applicable to the
United Kingdom.

Lord ISlotsrE•rH rose amidst bond cries of
" Question," which rendered what tell from his
Lordship inaudible.

The SPEAKER then put the question, that the
House do go into a Committee, which having
been agreed to,

•
Mr. BEAUMONT rose to move instructions to
the Committee to limit the duration of the
He concluded by moving, that it he an instruc-
tion to the Committee to limit the duration of the
Bill to six weeks after the commencement of the
next Session of Parliament.
The question having been put from the Chair,
The CHANCELLOR Of the Excli MUER rose
and said, that •he had hoped the limitation
granted by his Noble -Friend would have con-
ciliated all opinions with respect to the Bill at
present under the discussion of the House.—,

mew.

~~~~~.~

(Hear, bear !)—The evil under which the country
was at present suffering, was one of slow groWth,
of great magnitude, and extreme danger; and
therefore not one to be met by measures of short
duration. How long it would be-- before the
country would be a state of permanent and set-
tled-tratiquiflity, it was impossible to judge; but,
in his belief, it woeld require full five years to.
tranquillize the public mind. The true nature of
the present 13111
.was,—not to tithe away the rights
of the people, but to modify them in such a Win-
ner as to render them compatible with the public
good and security. The Right Honourable Gen..
*man concluded by proposing, that the words
" five. years," &c. be sohstituted for the words
" till the Ist of March, 1821, and six weeks after
the next meeting of Parliament."
Mr. CALCRAFT replied to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. He thonight-14 months long enough
to try the measures and their effects. His friends
had been jeered about Parliamentary -Reform ;
had not the same idea of i(s usefulness which they
had ; ire thought is foolish to undervalue on exist
ing institution until be had something to put itt
its place. Reform was not ;his panacea. He
would openly acknowledlie, though- it was an'un-
popular doctrine in.that House, that he was for a -
grant of public money 'to enable the surplus
manufacturing population to emigrate. --Here
was something sensible ; the Right Honour—
able Gentleman could not charge him- with
ideal propositions. The plan of Ministers
was, having frightened the douse by tales
of terror to a proper pitch, they demanded
the subversion of the Constitution for five, for
seven years, for life ; it was the same thing. Sup..
pose the discontent ceased before the expiration
of the period, what then would be the reply of the
Noble Lord ? Why, it would be said that the
Constitution worked better under the restraints of
the Noble Lord. The old Constitution world be
cried down as something inconvenient and un-
fashionable. He objected to any period for the
existence of these measwes. He would, however,
vote for his Hon. Friend's motion, as it was the
shortest period. In the :Dean time, the House
should do all in its power to redress the griev-
ances and alleviate the distresses of the people.
Mr. BANKES supported the &11, and maintained
that the framers of the Bill of Rights Dever had
such a thing in contemplation as that of a set of
demagogues going about 10 collect and harangue
large mobs, and impel them to every kind of se-
dition and violence : besides there was a law
which expressly prohibited such a practice. It
would be better to pass no measure at-all, that%
to limit the duration of the Bill to the short
period proposed ; it would only increase the le•
verish heat which now prevailed in the country.
There was another reason why be wished to con-
tinue this Bill to a long period, and that was, the
mischief Which` arose from a seditious and blas-
phemous press, which it was indispensably neces-
sary to put down ; and the suppression of tumul-
tuous meetings would go a great way in destroy-
ing such publications.
Mr. BUXTON supported-the motion. His friends
had been asked what- measures of Conciliation they
wriuld7o.4l;oies He. raniwered that be would be-
gin with throwing out the present Bills ; that
would do more to re-assure the confidence of the
people in that House, than any penal or restrictive.
measure they could enact. He enumerated several
miter measures such as a declaration of the neces-
sity of- Reform in that House ; another declaration
pjedOng the );oust!- to economy. He concluded
by,saying, that he svould rather vote for five years
duratioo than the fsturteen months named in the
instruction. -• •
Mr. Pisecaval. thhught, 'at a time like the pre-
sent, that every -mars, forgetting party rend per-
sonal feelings, otight'as far as he cool() conscien-
tiously, to .support Ministers, as at such a time it
was to be assomCd. that_ the battle of the Coosti-
wits') was to be fought by the side of Govern-
Nothing hot the conviction that this mea-
sure would prove a most dangerous inroad on the
rights and liberties of the subject could induce hies
at such a period, to oppose his Majesty's Ministers.
This he found himself compelled to do in the pre-
sent instance. If there were any mischievous
feelings in the minds of the people, he was much
afraid that they would be aggravated and augment-
ed by being rot up under the restrictions of this
Bill. It was because he disapproved of the mea-
sure altogether, and had hopes that altogether it
might be thrown out, that he would rather vote
for its having the longer than the shorter run.—
(Hear, hear,- hear !)-1-le would only vote for
tire longer period, because be feared, that if the
shorter were adopted, the fetters imposed by the
Bill would he rivetted on the nation for ever.
Mr. CARTWRIGHT differed from his Hon. Friend
who had just sat down, as he conceived time Bill
went to. protect the rights and liberties of Bug,
lishmen, which were now endangered by disaffec-
tion and popular commotion. He thought the
Bill ought not to be passed merely for a short
period, and that it would be ineffectual if its pro.
visions were merely of a local character.
Mr. WILBERFORCE rejoiced that the Bill was
not to be a permanent measure, and felt tnuch
obligtal to the Noble Lord for consenting to-make
it merely temporary. It was one of the
.peculiar
blessings of our Constitution that Parliament
were enabled in dangerous tunes to arm the Exe-
cutive with extraordinary powers, and, when the
storm had passed over, to revert to our approved
and ancient system. He could with very great
difficulty have reconciled himself to the ineastoe
as a permanent law ; but passed only for one year,
he was ot Opinion that it would do no good, but
would be found a great evil. If the danger were
so great as to justify them in passing such an Act
at al!, they ought. to pass it for such a period as
would be likely to cover the-danger. Not-doing
this, they would pay the price of the longer period
without obtaining the benefits which it offered.
Feeling this, he could not but wish that its (lure-
lion. should not be confined to three years, but
should rather extend to five. He was of opinion
that it ought not to -be made merely local, 4s to
do this would .be to defeat its object. It was be-
cause he valued the liberties of his Country, and
thought them worthy of being preserved, that he
Was disposed to concur in the temporary restric-
tions now proposed to be enacted. The Crown
had not eueroached on the people, but when he
saw turbulence like that lately witnessed, he felt