The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-18 00:00:00

Gioed.6 ---
invic_cpt), towards the close of the debate on Friday, in
rain !he her gentlemen to join him in excluding cur •
ths, words,afroin the clause, said, and said very, truly,
4;sbtll adoption of this suggpstion need not bind any
4:sa. tiipport the particular proposal of his Hon. Friend.
d .f his motion was successful, it would be within
discretion of those who might support him to make
thitty_floposition they might think fit, as an amendment to
exelt°ll the Government. lam sure the Noble Lord will not
The Noble Lord Majesty's G overnment from the same privilege.
were Lord made a successful appeal to those who
el 'Posed to support the motion of his Hon. Friend,
th,re,„_
tszanssoutre the Noble Lord that there are others
be influenced by it.—(Latsghter.) For
eensPolsrP2se of giving the House the opportunity of re-
Iktiv .7.11114. the subject, and saying whether there is
nwetigaitl in the reasons which I have given to-night
epting the proposition of my Hon. Friend,
nen the preposition is brought forward for reducing
ehlidiuty to 205., I shall move that the duty be 243. I
the make that proposition, not merely because it is
ar,e..l),ave which I approve of as preferable for the pro-
i`:Ll interests of the country, but because I think
.4aost unwise to carry any further alteration this year.
p‘;‘,A.ci.isider that it is of importance that the countries
so,7flng sugar, east of the Cape, should know what
1,117 will be taken in the course of the ensuing
regarding the sugar duties. We do not intend
itecrscP°se, at any time, the admission of slave-labour
41: r on the same footing as we propose to admit sugar
4"l4Produce 6f free labour.—(Hear.) It may be said,
, why don't you abandon your measure altogether
4411.1,3r0p05e the periodcontinuane existing duties until the
iesaT Period, or until some p in the course of the next
41,__Lcal? I will state to the House, why I do not adopt that
eziTative. Suppose we did altogether adopt that
wit: se-during the next sesssion, if we were entrusted
po, the Government, it might be our duty to make a
esCsaal on the subject of sugars. That proposition
tute`4 of course involve the admission of tree-labour
ifa (11.* It might involve a considerable reduction of duty,
)41_014y were proposed on British colonial sugar, and a
laburo•oponding reduction on sugar the produce of free
setiear•—(Hear.) But observe, if there were no previous
gi4 c given, and if you still required certificates of ori-
the es_ a condition of free-labour sugar—observe, I say,
ins It3,asitien in which we would be placed in approach-
r6evlaoe consideration of the sugar duties, without any
fls notice or any previous steps being taken by
arilanent. (At this moment there was considerable
m 0 se in the House. The Right Hon. Baronet waited a
'lenient, and then finding it did not subside, said he
thtd he might be able to obtain silence whilst he stated
fatells the Government intended to pursue. After a
liew raoments, silence having been restored, the Right
tb Baronet proceeded.) If they merely continued
peeXisting sugar duties until next year, and then pro-
-417 to deal with the general question of the sugar
of `es,
in what position would they be ?—(lronical cries
1101,,11ear, hear," from Lord Howick.) I know the
rr le Lord would be relieved from difficulty, because he
Ould admit sue•ar indiscriminately froth all countries
tit %. b
troy e, who entertain a distinction between the
tw classes—foreign sugar, free labour and slave
the ,11---vve should have to consider between
eoltwo alternatives, either to reduce the duty on British
Observe
sugar to a considerable extent, and in that case
he elite what we should be doing—we should, in effect,
triets.tablishing a monopoly in the British market for
Alit colonial sugar for several months ; for we should
1' for certificates of origin before we could admit
American sugar.—(Hear.) Let us assume that we pro-
siz‘e a reduction on British colonial sugar, amounting to
44, 'aell shillings—unless we could open some source of
kin Petition, the British colonial producers would have a
efetnPoly in the British market, and the reduced amount
pet,..u,tY would have no effect whatever in creating corn-
isl°ll.—(Hear, hear.) If we took another course—if
toak the course, to enable our competitors to
dettir in their supply, we must make the reduction of the
On British sugar take effect from a certain day,
h(Zht or nine months from that period. Consequently,
trhiehtheso causes would lie open to all the objections
Friend we at present urge. The motion of my Hon.
s, ende
they fixed a definite day or a definite duty, but the
"g°r
the reduced the amount of duty the greater was
4whtendency to derange the market and to reduce the
r:PlY.—(Hear.) On that ground lam not inclined to
°Pose a continuance of the present sugar duties, and
ause it would interfere with the general policy
*lfich
h I propose to pursue respecting the sugar duties.
,tents
now stated to the House as fully as is necessary,
clearly as I could, the course which the Govern-
intends to pursue, and the motives which influenced
lensi in making theproposal. lam not, I cannot be in-
bl • • •
e to the position in which the Governent has
assen of late placed—(The Right here,
during man • parts of the remainder of his speech,
!Poke- Y
1,1 in so low a tone of voice as to be frequently but
t;ll4,lstinetly heard in the gallery)—nor to the difficulties
h have occurred in the progress of legislation.—
I), ear, hear.) I cannot help feeling that we have pro-
praad measures in the coarse of the last and during the
ttectsPlt session in respect to which that progress has
but ueen made which we thought might have been made,
Which, not having been made, leaves us, I own, in a
titrY unenviable position.—(Hear, hear.) I will not
'Mt to impute blame to the House, but cannot help
thitYsing that I fear we must contemplate, at the close of
‘s''' present session, the same result as at the close of
;le last session.—(Hear, hear.) Those measures which
teer„llare proposed—measures connected with the in-
ct;uli. _(Hear, s, policy of the kingdom—have not been sue-
r
erar, hear.) With respect to some of
s anl, we have not received that cordial support.
-"t, and approbation from some of those Hon. Gen-
seinen who usually support the Government, which we
had been induced, to expect, and for whose opinion and
character we entertain the highest respect.—(Hoar.)
"I bound to say, speaking with perfect candour, that
th cannot look for that co-operation and support on the
6,e present occasion by holding out eectations of any
es-Lange in the measure which we have proposed. The
draw we believe to be good, and we must not With-
eh from it. If the measure does not entitle us to the
Goy of Hon. Members who usually vote for the
rnment, we deeply regret the forfeiture of that
s°nfidence. We did nut expect indiscriminate or ser-
iae support, but only such as would enable us to ad-
in h • ueful legislion.—Hear, hear.
t course o
tug
coursee has been tos maintain and protect the exist-
)
g institutions of the country, and, at the same time,
the maintenance
such improvements as are compatible with
maintenance necessary for the purpose of
*flouring the welfare and tranquillity of the commu-
11„citY• We have recorded our desire to relax the system
Protection and prohibition, and allow moderate cora-
. gtition between domestic and foreign produce. We
6 v,e attempted, to reconcile the introduction of prin-
„Ties which we believe to be founded on truth with
isfery regard for existing interests, and every precaution
~ prevent embarrassment and undue apprehension,—
(,
hear.) We feel it necessary to repeal some of
the laws which preceding Parliaments had passed, and
i propose a measure of reformation regarding the Ec-
faisstical Courts.—(.Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Go-
vernment have been defeated upon that question ; it may
:Pear a very simple and isolated one ; but we consider it
question of great importance.—(" Hear, hear," from
psJpposition.) I repeat, we cannot pretend to con-
ate support support by receding from the proposition we have
-"go. 1 wish to speak with perfect candour—l deeply
regret that we have forfeited the confidence of those who
generally give us their support ; but I cannot ask you
(turning to the Tory benches.) to vote for us to-
h•ght by encouraging expectations which we are
V.: Prepared to realize. For the eourse which
have hitherto taken with respect to the gradual, safe,
hs
an circumspect relaxation of those duties on articles
°f
pich come into competition with the domestic produce
this Country, we cannot say that we entertain any
of regret or of repentance, nor any conversion to
‘mereut principles. We are prepared to abide by the
;nurse; we have pursued—we will continue to profess the
10 principles, and to proceed in the same course of
gradual
Z improvement, and this I feel obliged to declare
a Period when important consequences may be the
eissnit•—(Cheers.)
114-ford JOHN RUSSELL rose and said—The Right
the Gentleman has brought under the consideration of
dr House other and far different topics from that imme-
diately under discussion. The Right Hon. Baronet has
1„,-v,ttefl remarks and discussion upon subjects of deep
„'"uhe interest, find from which, being so invited, I can-
-flint
,forbear e'ntering ints.—(Hear, hear.) What
f e Light Hon. Gentleman proposes in the question be-
te the House is simply to reverse the decision of Fri-
day night.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It was said
enough, that, according to the statement of my
Noble Friend, it was competent, according to the
1134:113 of the House, to move an amendment or altera-
te „Ln in the terms of the proposition of the Hon. Member
Ti,
Bristol ; but it does so happen that the change
TiTieLich is actually proposed is neither more or less than to
sgative, by a majority, the decision of Friday night.—
an-,C;ar. hear.) The proposal is, that the present sugar
Continued—that ell the duties on foreign sugar, at least
and that
the produce of slave labour, be continued ;
o.t_ti that our own proposition, a duty of 345. per cwt.,
Sugar the produce of free labour, be continued. That
effect, the very proposal which was placed before
he Meuseti on Friday night, and which the House de-
;?' against. I must say, although it is not for me to
the the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman at
the head of the Government towards his. supporters,
heat harder terms were never, in my opinion, imposed
/tY,any Minister.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
klpears to me that, according to the proposition of the
*rig t Hon. Gentleman, no measure of Government or
11-ance could be laid before the Legislature upon w
,„- was not prepared to say, " Let us, as the Govern-
eient
iTt opposition i'okne,
oautirdproposition—it is your duty to accede to
L„ (Loud cheers and cries of " Hear, hear," from the
partial cries of " Hear, hear," from the
5,54.9 benches.) And, if by any chance in taking_
theour
jPartial and independent view of the interests of
you come to a conclusion different to that a t
11c" we arrive, we will ask you then to retrace your steps.
...... • (Cheers and " Hear " from the same quarters.) You
glut,affirm
in short, what you deny, and deny what
ye,,
Marnrai and exhibit yourself to the country as a de-
a'ad and disgraced body of men."—(Loud cheers and
tiles of "Hear.") That is the proposition of the Right
stell3n._ net
Baronet, and that is the proposition to whieli I
her t prepared to agree.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot, I
lave, be counted one of those who have been the
ceeral supporters of the present Government.—
. atighter.) lam not one of those 'who enjoy that
thotinction—(Renewed laughter)—and it is not likely
• 4:11t. I shall be compelled to change my course on this
sh,Jaat• It is for those who have been the supporters of
the Government to consider whether, on any subject,
Yare prepared to surrender their will to the dictation
the Bight Hon. Baronet. And be it remembered,
tt. is not any direct or long cherished principles
tionfel !hey are called upon to sanction—not in confirma-
. the, oi I
those principles upon which they acted when
;but Placed him in office, and supplanted his predecessors,
- -s• .
.I,Ftnetples the reverse of these.—(Hear,
%Wight lion. Gentleman now showed them how they
44444911 thwie doctrines to which they 111404

themselves on the hustings, and join the adviscates of
free trade—(Hear, hear)—and the sustainment of the
Right Hon. Gentleman in office was thought by them a
sufficient excuse for this desertion. But they were now
called upon not only to abandon those principles
upon which they formerly acted, but the most
recent convictions of their own mind. I repeat, there
never were harder terms imposed on any supporters than
those which the Right Hon. Gentleman imposed on his.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the proposition of
the lion. Member was the effect of political combination
of some of their own supporters-, and of others opposed
to him. The Noble Lord then explained, in order to
show that there was no preconcerted plan between him-
self and the Right Hon. Gentleman the late President of
the Board of Trade ; in fact, seeing Mr. Miles's motion
was quite accidental, his Right Honourable Friend,
as soon as he heard the nature of the motion
which Mr. Miles had originally made, and which he
subsequently altered, announced his determination not
to support that motion, but at the same time stated the
nature of the proposition which he (Mr. Labouehere)
could support, and if the Hon. Member framed his mo-
tion so as to obtain that support, it surely could not be
called combination. Ido not see (said the Noble Lord)
how the Right lion. Gentleman at the head of the Go-
vernment can, after the open declaration of my Right '
Hon. Friend in this House, term our votes the result of
" constructive conspiracy."—(Laughter, and cries o'
" Hear, hear.") Hon. Members on this side of the
House, remarkable for their advocacy of free trade prin-
ciples, voted for the Government. If there has been any
combination or conspiracy it is surely among the ordi-
nary supporters of Government.—(Hear, hear.) I think
those Hon. Members on this side of the House who voted
with the Government will find it difficult to reconcile
their objections against a duty of 345. and 245., and
their support of a duty of 63s.—(Hear, hear, and laugh
ter.) Perhaps they think the Right Hon. Gentleman
after all the most effectual promoter of free trade prin-
ciples. Well, now with respect to the former part of the
Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, I do not think it is
m cessary to advert in this debate. Ido not mean to
enter into the question which was so fully dis-
cussed on my proposition with respect to the
duty on free-labour and slave-grown sugar. With
respect to the income-tax I do not wish to follow
the Right Hon. Gentleman at any length. The Right
Hon. Gentleman said that the reduction of the interest
on the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. was one great ob-
jection to the re-imposition of the income-tax. But this
reduction was decided on in March, and we need not
have waited until after Easter for the consideration of
these subjects. The Right Hon. • Baronet says that a
great many legislative measures have been passed. No
doubt there was the Bank Charter, a most important
measure, but we had also several other measures of le-
gislation which were not of so much importance. I will
take, for instance, the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, the
Irish Registration Bill, and other Bills, which the year
1845 would have been quite soon enough to have sub-
mitted to the consideration of the House. I think the
Right Hon. Gentleman might fairly have said, " Here
are great questions relative to finance—we have reduced
the interest on the Three-and-a-Half per Cents., and we
have now to bring before you questions of commercial
policy, and the question of the continuance of the in-
come-tax." I think that the House in that case would
have felt that it was desirable to turn all their attention
to those great subjects. I should have distinctly stated
that any loss to the revenue would be met bettor in three
years than it could be met in two years, and I should
have proposed the continuance of the income-tax from
the next year. Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman talked
much about the disadvantage of making a prospective
reduction in November, but I cannot understand either
from him or from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, how that proposition, which is
so beneficial with respect to foreign free-labour sugar,
can be so very injurious to colonial sugar.—(Cheers.)
But that, in many respects, it is injurious, I am quite
ready to admit. But the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the other night, in arguing
that question, and putting the case of colonial sugar,
said, " Nobody will be ready to buy because of the pro-
posed reduction ;" but when he came to his own propo-
sition, he said " Everybody will be ready to sell because
they will be glad to get rid of an article on which there
will be a reduction in November." It, therefore, as I
understood him, must be beneficial in one sense, and not
in another.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, with respect to
the important part of this subject, the reduction to 345.,
I own that it does seem to me, generally speaking, to be
a fair proposition that the raw article should not be sub-
jected-- supposing both are the subjects of duty—that
the raw article should not be subjected to competition with
the manufactured article at exactly the same duty. It,
therefore, does not seem to me to be a fair principle( n which
the Hull. Gentleman is proceeding. But, on the other
hand, if that proposition should be adopted, I think that