The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

TIIE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 16, 1844.

was still a strong disposition to assume the accuracy of thy
statement.

(LEFT SPEAXING')

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER took the chair at Four o'Clock.
POOR-LAW RETURNS.

A clerk from the office of the Poor-law Commissioners pre.
rented certain returns.

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS.

Mr. ESTCOURT moved the appointment of the Select
Committee on Standing Orders :—Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Wilson
Patten, Mr. Pendarves, Mr. William Miles, Mr. Cumming
Bruce, Sir Robert Ferguson, Mr. Ord, and the Chairmen of
the Committee and of the Sub-Committees on Petitions for
Private Bills.—Agreed to.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS presented:a petition from Bridgewater,
praying the House not to consent to any increase in the mill.
Lary establishment until the people should be fully represented.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from Birming-
ham with a similar prayer.
LI ERPOOL GAS BILL.
Leave was given to introduce the Liverpool Gas Bill.
STOPPING THE SUPPLIES.

Dr. 130 WRING presented a petition, signed by 2,300 of
the inhabitants of Bolton, complaining of the state of the re-
presentation, and praying that the supplies might not ba
voted till the grievances of the people wero redressed.
Mr. STANSFIELD presented a petition with a similar
prayer.
Lord MARSHAM presented petitions from places in Kent,
praying that publicans might be placed on the same footing
with shopkeepers with regard to the window duty.
Mr. WALLACE presented a petition from Mr. Cadogan
Williams, complaining that Railroad Companies acted upon a
system which deprived the working classes of those benefits
which railroads ought to confer upon the public generally, and
that the proprietors acted exclusively for their own benefit
without reference to the public. The petitioner expressed his
opinion that the poorer classes were stowed away in third class
carriages, with straw, canvass, and leather which were thought
of equal value.—(Laughter.)
PROTECTION TO AGRICULTURE,

Sir J. THOLLOPE presented a petition from Spalding,
and several petitions from other places in Lincolnshire, praying
for a continuance of agricultural protection.
- THE ARMY.

Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from Liverpool,
praying that no supplies should be granted until the military
force of the country had been reduced, as the petitioners
stated that a standing army was a great temptation to a
Government to rule the country in a despotic manner.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. WALLACE gave notice that, on Monday, he should
move for a return of the names of the Commissioners of her
Majesty's Customs, the age of each, and the period at which
they entered the service. He should further move, on
Monday, for a return to show the number of
actions that had already been commenced, and what informa-
tions had been filed with respect to the frauds on the Customs.
He also gave notice that on Monday he should inquire of the
Under-Secretary of the Treasury at what time the free postage
writing paper would be issued, and what the cost would be to
the public.
Colonel RAWDON gave notice that on Monday he should
move for a return of the naval force that had been employed on
the coast of Ireland from the year 1834 to the present time.
ARMY AND POLICE IN IRELAND.

Mr. W. IVILLIAMS moved for returns relating to the
number of the military and police employed in Ireland during
certain years, 1810, 1815, &c., to the present year ; also, for a
return of the amount of money voted in the years named re-
spectively, for the maintenance of the police force in that
country.—Ordered.
Mr. BARRY BALDWIN moved for a return of the
amount of stock transferred from England to Ireland since the
Ist of January, 1841—Ordered.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON moved for returns relating to
the foreign wines in bond, in the years from 1828 to 1838 in-
clusive.

PUBLIC SALARIES.
Mr. WILLIAMS, seeing the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary to the Treasury (Sir George Clerk) in his
place, begged leave to ask him a question. In an early
part of last session, he (Mr. W.) moved for a return of
the number of persons receiving the public money in salaries
or pensions, to the amount of 1,0001. and upwards. This re-
turn was presented to the Treasury on the 10th of February.
Now what he wished to ask was, when the return would be
laid on the table of the House ?
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that the Report had been pre-
pared for some time ; but before they could be presented it
would be necessary for the Hon. Member to give a fresh
notice and to alter the form of his motion, as there were several
offices included in the return, which were not comprehended
in the Hon. Gentleman's motion.
Mr. WILLIAMS then gave notice that on Monday next
he would bring forward the motion in an amended farm.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. •
Sir G. CLERK moved that the House, at its rising, do ad-
journ till Monday.—Agreed, to.
ESTIMATES.

Mr. WILLIAMS begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Government, whether he intended to take the
Army or the Navy Estimates first, in the Committee of Supply.
Sir R. PEEL said, the Navy Estimates would be taken
first ; but for the convenience of the House he would move that
the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply be
postponed till Monday neat.
The Order was then postponed.
EXPORT OF COALS. -

Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord
of the Treasury, whether since the House separated last session
there had been any order issued with respect to the export
duty on coals, and whether any alteration had taken place
in the amount of the duty. lie understood that
some modification had taken place in the duty, and
that the export of coals had been allowed, subject to that modifi-
cation. If this was the fact, it was desirable the House should
be in possession of some information respecting it.
Sir R. PEEL said that any order that had been made on the
subject should be laid before the House.
COMMUNICATION WITH AMERICA.

Sir VALENTINE BLAKE said he had, on the previous
evening given notice of a motion for considering the expediency
of establishing a quicker communication with America by rail-
roads and canals in communication with the ship canal across.
Ireland, and thence by steamers across the Atlantic. He
now merely bad to notice , that in the Times of this day it
was stated that his motion was for executing railways and
canals across the Atlantic. Of course the reporter would not
have been consistent if he had not added, " great laughter."
—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) If that had been the object of
his motion, the laughter would have been perfectly just. He
did not think it necessary to convert the matter into a breach
of privilege—(Laughter)—and he hoped it would not be ne-
cessary to take any further notice of it.
Sir R. PEEL begged to assure the Hon. Baronet that
nothing would be harder than that he should blame the re-
porter, he had fallen into the same mistake himself.—(Great
Laughter.)
S'r V. BLAKE was astonished that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet should have fallen into the same mistake as the records of
Parliament stated the purport of the motion which he made
during the last session.
THE CATHEDRALS.

Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Baronet if be had had
any communication with the Dean and Chapter of Westminster
with respect to the admission fees into the Cathedral.
Sir R. PEEL said he had had several communications with
the Dean and Chapter, but he had not received any intimation
of any final arrangement having been made on the subject.
IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Captain BERNAL, in rising to resume the adjourned de-
bate, said that after the able and eleguent speech, last even-
ing, of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland (Lord
liowick), it was but natural for the House to suppose that some
leading Member of the opposite side would have risen to reply to
him. He (Capt. Bernal) waited for some time in expectation
that this would be the case, and in moving the adjournment
he had been charged with standing between the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government and the house. He
certainly should not presume to have got up at all, had
he known such would have been the case, and he thought
it necessary to give this explanation, as he had been
blamed not only by friends but rather by opponents. If
they wanted proof of the truth of Oxenstein's saying, " Go,
my son, and see with how little wisdom this world is governed,"
he thought it could readily he found in the present Govern-
ment in regard to their policy in Ireland. lie had listened
with great surprise and equal attention to the speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir Jas. Graham). That it was all complaisance
and mildness he (Captain Bernal) was free to confess, but
through all that speech of blandishments it was very evident
that in his heart was lurking the old principle of " Protestant
ascendancy" and "No surrender." That speech would
show to Ireland that Ministers had never contem-
plated any measure whatever of effective concession.
and conciliation. There was a time when the Irish nation
made their solemn renunciation of a repeal of the union—there
was a time when there were no monster meetings—no meet-
ings at all save those of a few noblemen and gentlemen who
turned their backs upon the Lord Lieutenant, because he wished
to govern the country in a spirit of fairness and impatiality.
—( Hear, hear.) The Government now had reduced the
country to three classes—infantry, cavalry, and artillery.—.
( Hear, hear.) There might have been Governments in he-
land more arbitrary and blood-thirsty—that of Strafford, for
instance—than the present one—but they could not bring to
him the instance of any Administration that was more tho-
roughly anti-Irish than the prsent. Was he alone in this
opinion ? Indeed he was not ; for, during the last session of
Parliament, the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Recorder of
Dublin (Mr. Shaw), maintained the same sentiments, though
expaessed perhaps in somewhat milder language. That High;
Hon. Gentleman maintained, too, and with pertinacious deter-
mination, that he had got hole of the right religion, and he
was not alone in thinking so.—( Laughter, and a sign of dis-
sent from Mr. Shaw.) Why, he said so late as last even-
ing, that he late as last evening that he would sacrifice his
life for that which he and others held—the exclusive
possession of religious truth.-- (Hear, hear.) He came now
to the conduct of the Government, in reference to the late
monster meetings in Ireland ; and he must say that lie con-
sidered it most strange that, after watching them for nine
months, and even declaring that in them they viewed the pre-
parations for rebellion, they had only acted at the very last
moment, and that, too, with such precipitation. In respect to
the trials for calling or attending these monster meetings,
he must admit that the Right Honourable Baronet
(Sir J. Graham) made a successful defence of the Govern-
ment, so far as the striking of the panel :went. But the
broad and plain question for them to consider was, not
what was due to the mere technicalities of lawyers,
but what was due to the great principle of truth, ho-
nesty, and justice. He was sorry that the Attorney-
General for Ireland, who, it was promised, would have been
in his place before this, was not present as, had he been so, he
should have made some observations, which, under the pre-
sent circumstances, he should refrain from. It had been as-
serted by a Noble Member of the Government (Lord Stanley)
that there had been a systematic attempt to force the Attorney-,
General for Ireland into a breach of decorum.—Hear,
hear.) He (Captain Bernal) was in a position to contradict
this ; and to assert that no such attempt, that no such de-
sire had ever existed, except in the over-heated imagination
of the Right Honourable and choleric Gentleman himself.
He had a list of the appointments under Lord De Grey's Ad •
ministration. It appeared that they had had ten preferments
to give away. He would merely refer to one of them. The
Rev. Holt Waring had been made Dean of Dromore, a sinecure
dignity, worth 1,5001. a year. This gentleman was formerly
Grand Chaplain of the Orangemen, a political agitator, re-
markable for his bigotry, and these were some of his exploits;
—ln the year 1835 there was a large meeting at Hillsborough.
Shortly after eleven o'clock, said the account, bands
announced the approach to the town of the first divi-
sion, but at half distance.—(Laughter) They were headed
by the Rev. Holt Waring. A union jack was hoisted as the
signal of their arrival. In a few minutes they were seen
marching down a steep hill, and approaching the place
of meeting, comprising In all not less than 20,000 persons.
Having escorted Mr. Waring to the front of the platform,
they received his flag, and having given three cheers, let
Hon. Gentlemen opposite mark this expression—they de-
ployed and took up their position around.—( Great laughter.)
The ;meeting at length amounted to 75,000 persons, and at
this meeting Mr. Waring made an inflammatory speech
against the Catholics, and the national system of education.
His merits were passed over by the late Government, and it
remained for Lord De Grey to appoint him to this situation.
With respect to his Excellency's thirty-nine chaplains—all nil.

precedsnted number—the); all agreed in one point, namely, op-
positioi to the national education. To leave the system
in etch hands resembled the trying of conspirators
by a jury which was opposed to them.—( Hear, hear.)
In the 'ear 1839 the Right Hon. Baronet made the volun-
tary ant remarkable eonfession that Ireland was his chief diffi-
culty. Now he was anxious to put this question to the Right
Hon. Baronet—at what point would his difficulty become
realised?—(Hear, hear.) Was he not satisfied with
having ;ounteracted all the good which had been done in Ire-
lam' foi the last fifteen years ?—(Hear, year, and cheers. )
Was it not enough to have set sect against sect? Was not
the reNious animosity of that country again excited ? Was
not tie country ruled by the army? Was not
the Dike of Wellington in fact Pro-Consul of Ire-
land?--;Loud cheers.) He called upon the night Honourable
Baronet to make a declaration as to what was the maximum
of difficulty with which he would be content. Did he wait till
Ireland as deluged with blood and irretrievably lost to Great
Britain 7 He called upon the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward
and say what was his maximum of difficulty.—( Cheers.) He
( Captaii Bernal) could not but express his regret at the
apathy which existed among the great body of English
Member as to Irish grievances.—( Hear.) If a sense
of justice could not rouse them to take part with
Ireland, perhaps a sense of self-interest might.—( Loud cries
of " Hear, hear.") The Right Hon. Boronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department had let drop some signifi-
cant exp.PsOons the other night in that debate. He hinted
at conspiicy. Let not Hon. Gentlemen be too secure in
their confilerice. The same scenes which were new rehearsing
in Ireland, might be enacted in England. They might depend
upon it thit it was not the disposition bnt the opportunity tha
wanting.

‘, Jam proximus ardet Ucalegon."
It was net by the vituperation of the Hon. Member for
Cork that they would conciliate the affections of the
Irish pecple. If they intended to rule Ireland
with advantage to England they must do it with re.
garsi to kish notions, nay to Irish prejudicies.—(Hear,
hear.) Move all they must cherish the Catholic reli-
gion as a good, not tolerated as an evil.—( Hear, hear. )
He asked were the present Government prepared to do
this? The answer was, No. He repeated in the words
of a great deceased man, that the present Government could
not govern Ireland for England. The loss of a nation's good-
will (said .he Hon Member in conclusion) is synonymous
with the loss of reputation. After being experienced of all
your past tfranny, Ireland may, in the prodigality of her
mercy, forgve yeu, but surely she eau never trust you.—(Loud
cheers.)
Mr. D'ISRA ELI thought he onght not to shrink on the
present occasion from expressing, without reserve, and with
the utmost explicitness, the view that he entertained of the
qustion before the House, andhe trusted that in doing so that he
would meet with the indulgence of the House. In the first
place, he rrust remark that in his speech the Noble Lord, the
Member fir Sunderland, who had closed the debate last night,
repeated wlat was often stated in that House, a right appreci-
ation of wh.ch would he (Mr. D'lsraeli) imagined throw great
light on the general subject, and facilitate the solution of that
vexatious political problem—he meant the right government
of Ireland. The Noble Lord referred to a period or more than
300 years ago—the period of the Reformation, and the
Hon. and Learned Member for Devonport (Sir George
Grey) while he equally, with the Noble Lord, avowed
his convicti in in the truth of Protestant principles, seemed to
be of opinion, that between the introduction of more Protestant
principles of religion and the misgovernment of Ireland there
was a necessary and irresistible connexion. Now he (Mr.
D'lsraeli) wished to place before the House some facts which
are necessary for its consideration. If he were to
refer to that period in the history of Ireland when
the Government of the country approached nearly to the de-
scription which the Honourable Gentleman opposite
often affered at that which they wished to see established,
it would be a period by no means so distant as that
to which the Noble Lord referred. He would take,
for instance, a period of only two hundred years back,
the period immediately preceding the breaking out of
the great civil war. Now what was the Government of Ire-
land at that period. There was a Parliament in Dublin called
by a Protestant King, and presided over by a Protestant
N iceroy—there was at that time a Protestant
Established Church in Ireland, yet. the majority of the Mem-
bers of Parliament were Roman Catholics. The Government
of the country was carried on by a Council of State--presided
over by a Protestant deputy—yet the majority of that
Council of State were Roman Catholics; the majority of the
sheriffs of counties were Roman Catholics; and the prepon-
derating numbers of the magistracy were Roman Catholiea.
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

THE COMPLETE SUFFRAGE
MOVEMENT.

The Council of the National Complete Suffrage Union
met at Birmingham on Monday ; the President in the

chair.
Most encouraging accounts were read from different
parts of the kingdom, regarding the rapid and satis-
factory progress which the Supply movement is making
in the public mind.
LETTER FROM MR. W. S. CRAWFORD.
_ _ _

Mr. STURGE then read the following letter from Mr.
W. S. Crawford, which he hac,l,it!ioantdmono,rning
Feb.
received:—
" Respected Friend,—l think it right to submit to you
a few observations on the present position of the move-
ment, which has been commenced in the House of Com-
mons, with a view to pressing forward the consideration
of grievances on motions of Supply. By a reference to the
division lists you will find that 40 Members voted in sup-
port of that principle of action, taking the two divisions
conjointly. Out of these 40 Members you will observe
that three, who voted in favour of the first motion, voted
against the second motion; but, even if we are to suppose
that these gentlemen are:no longer to be included in our
lists, still there remain 37 Members, and there are some

Members whose support might be expected. It should
always be kept in mind in this movement, that a minority
cannot be justified in any course which would indicate
a determined opposition to a majority, unless it is based
on the position that the minority do truly represent the
people, and that the majority do not ; and this can only
be evidenced by the constitutional expression of the
people's voice in the form of petition, and by the com-
munication of the sentiments of constituencies to their

respective representatives ; but in such communications
allow me to add, that it is not right to ask them to sup-
port the detail of proceedings which any particular
thatd each be nuqueimrebder intosb
Member might suggest or adopt ; but the constituencies
should insist on the principle that the complaints of
be
ee
obueldformeake
the.,suSeuiplplies
mo-
tions and take such steps, as in his judgment would be
most effective for the purpose.
441 had written so far before I was aware that notice
had been given by the Government to bring on the
voted, people andshoul
Army and Navy EStimates in Committee of Supply
on Friday next. This is, I believe, a rapidity most un-
usual, if not unprecedented. The estimates are not
vet delivered, and cannot be in the hands of the,
Members for some days. It is obvious that by this
course any possible expression of public opinion on the
subject of the movement now commenced will be fore-
stalled ; but if, it be supposed that the fixing of this
early day was done with that object, it will be a proof
of the importance of the movement, and a stimulus to
greater exertion in carrying it forward. In order to
meet this proceeding of the Government, I have this
day given notice that I shall on Friday next move an
amendment on the motion of Supply, to the effect that
the consideration of the estimates be postponed ;' this
motion will of course be lost, but it will be a stronger
foundation for a contest on the estimates, if the
Members representing popular constituencies feel
so disposed. In the meantime, I shall, as an
individual Member, keep up the ' system of pro-
ceeding to such extent as prudence and utility shall
seem to me to warrant. But I must remind you that
there is an obstacle to a single Member, or a few Members.
pushing a proceeding of this kind to any great extent,
without a sufficient weight both of internal and external
support, lest it might be made a plea by the majority to
swamp those privileges of the Commons which are in-
tended as the best securities of the rights of the people.
At the same time, I am convinced that if a body of
Members, to the number which the late divisions show
were determined to act together, and were backed by a
sufficient power of the public voice, no Government could
stand against them for any length of time and refuse re-
dress of grievances ; and I am equally convinced that
there are no other means in prospect by which that re-
dress can be obtained.
" Believe me, with the highest respect, zour Friend,
" Wbf. SHARMAN CRAW.FORD.

" To Joseph Sturge, &c. &c."
Mr. STURGE expressed his high satisfaction with the
prudent and persevering exertions of Mr. Crawford,
with the conduct of those who had supported him, and
the healthy state of public feeling on the subject. He
traced the history of the movement, and expressed his
anxious wish that the friends of the cause would feel
that the good work was but a beginning, and that they
would continue to agitate until the opinion of the majo-
rity of the people were distinctly known.
Mr. J. C. PERRY moved, and Mr. W. MORGAN se-
conded, the following resolutions, which were passed
tffianimously.-
1. That this Council congratulate the friends of com-
plete suffrage upon the remarkable success which has
attended the introduction into Parliament of the pro-
posal for redressing the grievances of thepeople_before
voting the supplies, and they denve great encouragement
from the fact that forty Members have recorded their
votes in favour of that proposal.
2. That this Council have read the letter of Mr. Shar-
man Crawford to their President, dated the 10th inst.,
with great interest, and beg to assure that gentleman of
their
,unabated confidence, and the deep gratitude they
entertain for his faithful services in the cause of the
people, and advocacy of their claims, and they rejoice
that an instrument for enforcing those claims is now in
the hands of the patriotic Members of Parliament who
really represent the people.
3. That this Council look forward with the deepest
anxiety to the discussion about to take place on the
ArmyEstimates,and in anticipation of the amendment of
which Mr. Crawford has given notice being defeated,
trust that the friends of the people in Parliament will
use every means which the forms of the House will per-
mit to resist the grant of Supplies even for a limited
period, until an assurance be obtained that the master
grievance of non.representation shall be considered,
with a view to its complete redress.

STRANGE OCCURRENCE.—MISS , whose death
appeared in the Mercury of Friday last, was cousin to her
employer, Mr. —. Confinement had wrought so unfa-
vourably upon her health that last summer she went to the
country. Having been there some time, she received a letter,
stating that unless she returned immediately, her situation
would not be kept for her. She did return, and graduglly
grew worse. On the day of her death she appeared to be
labouring more severely than she had before done under the
influence of her malady. Her cousin desired her to go home,
but she was too unwell, and died in her clothes. Hu
mother, a poor woman, was sent for. She wished the corpse
to remain there until a coffin could be obtained, but Mr.
would not consent, saying, " Do you think I would
have a corpse in my house ?" " Well," replied the
distressed mother, " let me go first and inform the
people I lodge with of poor —'s death." She went,
and scarcely had she entered the house, than a cab
stopped by the door, and the cabman called out, "I
have a passenger for you." lie then descended and opened
the door of the cab, when a sight presented itself which made
him " blush for them," to use his own words. The corpse
had fallen from the seat, and its nose was much disfigured.
The front part of the dress had been cut open, to allow the

poor girl breathing room, and when the corpse was seen-in
the cab, the dress, front above to the waist, had dropped
down, so that the upper part was literally naked! This
unfeeling wretch refused to assist the poor mother with the
loan of the means to bury her, although the poor girl had
provided for that before hand, but the party who had the
money was not in town at the time. And she was heard
to say, "I can die happy, because I know I have money to
bury me with !"—The above has been communicated from
a highly respectable party, but we think it only justice to
say that we have heard a somewhat different statement of
the same case, though, we fear, the main incident is only too
true.—Licerpool Nercury.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 15.

STATE OF IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said that in the able speech which
the House bad just heard, the Honourable Gentleman did
not say what remedies he would propose in the social,
civil, or ecclesiastical institutions of Ireland. If the Hon-
ourable Gentleman proposed to establish the Roman Ca-
tholic Church in Ireland as the Presbyterian Church was
established in Scotland—and he ( Mr. Borthwick) thought that
by far the most equitable and feasible arrangement—yet he
believed that the Hon. Member would have no more determined
opponent to such a proposition than the Noble Lord who sat
beside him ( Lord John Russell). With respect to
the late trials, he must confess that he had looked
upon it with dread. He thought that one result of
it must be that it would increase the influence of the Libe-
rator, who would now be regarded by the people not
merely as an agitator, but as a martyr in their
cause. However, it would have this advantage, that it
would enable the Government to advance to Ireland with
measures of conciliation, when they were in a condition to say
that concession had not been extorted by intimidation—when
they had put an end to those multitudinous meetings which
disquieted Ireland, and, he might say, alarmed Europe.
What benefit d d they expect would arise from a debate on the
sufferings of Ireland in that House? Why, none what-
ever—or rather the effect of a debate, which would be
nothing but an interchange of charges between the opposing
parties, would be but to embitter the animosities which dis-
tracted that country and add to the fuel that consumed it.
That would be the effect of a debate, and not a
remedy for the evils of the country. The Honourable
Gentleman who had spoken last said that Mr. O'Connell
was perfectly sincere in his desire to benefit his country.
He (Mr. Borthwick) for one never had the slightest doubt
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork in his long career
had only in view the good of his country. But he was not to
judge of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's motives, but of
the results of his career, and if he were asked whether it were
better to assist the Minister of the Crown in proposing re-
medial measures for Ireland. or aid in taking from that House
the power of legislating for that country, ho could have no hesi-
tation in giving the preference to the former course. With re-
spect to the motion of the Noble Lord (J. Russell), he must
certainly oppose it, because no good to Ireland could result
from it. Suppose that, ins, ead of Lord Normanhy, an Orange-
man had been Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, would it not have
been considered very unfair to quote the opinions and policy of
such an ultra-Lord-Lieutenant, as a precedent for future
Lord-Lieutenants. He craved permission of Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to consider that sympathy for the people of Ireland
was not entirely confined to themselves—they should give Hon.
Members on this side sa the House credit for acting, according
to their honest convictions. No measure could be more calcu-
lated to confer any practical benefit on the Irish people than
the motion of the Noble Lord, nor hardly any measure more
productive of mischief.—( Hear) No favourable issue could be
anticipated from it, and he felt it to be his bounden duty to
give that motion his most strenuous opposition. And in so doing
he would not be actuated by any motive of indifference or dis-
like to the interests of the people of Ireland, and he sincerely
wished that the government of that people might be carried
out in the spirit of affection and good-will, in such a manner as
would secure ultimate peace and prosperity to that country.
There was adisposition on the other side of the House, to attri-
bute every vote given in favour of Ministers to a hatred of
Ireland—that was a most unjust aspersien. The Noble Lord
had alluded to the term " aliens," used by the Lord Chancellor.
He thought sufficient explanation had been given to the House
that that word had not been used in an invidions sense. The Eng-
lish were aliens in the same sense as the Irish were in the way
Lord Lyndhurst had used the word.— ( Hear, hear.) They
were aliens to the Irish as the Irish were to them. He could
hardly wonder at strong expressions having been used by the
Hon. Member for Cork, when the Noble Lord, the Member for
London, condescended to have recourse to such paltry party sub.
terfuges. The agitator was no longer the Member for Cork,
but the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of Lon-
don. Agitation had been transferred to the benches opposite.
The lion. and Learned Member for Cork had been received
in that House in a spirit of good- will. He participated in that
spirit. But as they sat in that House as legislators, he was of
opinion those who so received him after his conviction must he
inimical and hostile to the good of the State.—( Cheers.) He
(Mr. Borthwick) had the greatest respect for the abilities of
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and he believed he was
sincere in the policy he pursued, though he was not very eour-
teouslv received even by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
himself, when on one occasion he said so. Now that the law
had been vindicated, he did not wish he should receive any
punishment.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland would
now perceive that the language addressed to them by Mr.
O'Connell was not to be tolerated. They would see he was not
to be a Viceroy over her Majesty, and was not to supersede
both Houses of Parliament. He thought the empire owed
the present Government a debt of gratitude for putting down
the agitation, and he now hoped that they would follow it up,
by developing the great resources of prosperity in Ireland, and
would pull up all those noxious weeds which would tend to
foster any similarly obnoxious agitation.
Sir H. WINSTON BARRON said he did not rise for the
purpose of answering the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, but he rose to ask whether, after this country had pos-
sessed Ireland for 700 years, they were still determined to keep
herby a military occupation ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, confessed that
she was to be so held, and no Hon. Gentleman denied it. Now
he would ask in sober sadness, as an Irishman—of the people
of England, of the people of Scotland, the people of Wales, of
the whole civilized world, whether this was a state of things
which could be borne by any men of spirit who had hearts to
feel or hands to act? He did not say it by way
of menace, but he asked them did they think- the
people of Ireland ought to submit to it ? They would
not submit to be kept in military bondage by any nation.—
( Cheers.) You would not submit to it yourselves. You
extracted Magna Charta from one King, and you brought
another—he would not then inquire whether justly or no—to
the block, became he attempted to encroach upon your liber-
ties; and when you would not submit to be tyrannised yourselves,
do you think the people of Ireland will submit to it ?—( Cheers. )
It was not in human nature to submit to it, and the people of
Ireland would not long submit to it. He would never join in any
armed opposition to the laws of the land—he would never unite in
any military array against the Government, if such arose in the
country ; but did they think that seven millions of Irishmen
had the same reasons for not doing so which he had ? The country
was poor and distracted—it was in a state approaching to disor-
ganization. They had many grievances to complain of, as he
was prepared to show, upon the authority of men possessed of
large fortunes in the country—men of rank—men who seldom
mix themselves up in political agitation. A petition had been
presented to Parliament by men representing property amount-
ing, at least, to :,00,000/. or 600,0001. a-year. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then referred to the petition agreed to at Charlemont
House, and setting forth the grievances of the country. The
Hon. Gentleman then referred to the address of the Irish Mem-
bers at the close of the last session of Parliament. They set
forth the grievances of the country, and, amongst other things,
they complained that the resources of the country were not
developed. This, in his opinion, was one of the greatest evils
afflicting Ireland. The second demand of the Irish represen-
tatives last year was, the recognition of perfect equality with
regard to ecclesiastical and educational arrangements between
the several religious classes into which the population of Ireland
is divided; the third was a more ample representation; the
fourth, a franchise adequate to giving full expression to public
opinion ; the fifth, an assimilation of municipal rights in both
countries ; the sixth, that Ireland should participate more
largely in the benefit of the public expenditure. That was a
matter which had been sadly neglected by the British Legisla-
ture—by English Chancellors of the Exchequer—and by none
more than by the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he sow oppo-
site. The seventh demand was, that, in the administra-
tion of the Government, the profession of the Roman Catholic
faith, should be no longer a ground virtually, as it had ceased
to be one legally, of exclusion from official situations. And on
this subject he must advert to the anomalous position in which
Ireland found herself. There was not a place of honour
and emolument there which was not filled with men totally
ignorant of, and unconnected with, Ireland—men who first
set their foot on the soil of Ireland when they went
to fill a situation there. Then, with respect to
legislative representation, Ireland was entitled to at least 130
Members. Why, he asked, should not Ireland have as many
voters, in proportion to her population and resources, as Eng-
land? Were not the voters in that country as independent, and
as worthy of the franchise, as the voters in England? Were
they not rather more independent, for it was a well-known fact
that a tenant in England never ventured to vote against the
wishes of his landlord, while, in Ireland, the voter invariably
voted according to his conscience. He knew an instance of
his position with respect to the English voter, which bore him
out in his assertion. In a coun!y of England with which he
was acquainted, a Noble Lord possessed an estate, the tenants
upon which always voted for a Whig candidate at elections,
because the Noble Lord was of Whig principles. The heir
who afterwards inherited the estate was of opposite principles,
and what was the consequence ? Why, the tenants voted at the
last election for the Conservative candidate, a thing they never
did in their lives hefere. With respect to taxation, which was
a matter of the utmost importance in an inquiry into the
state of Ireland, very erroneous statements were very in-
dustriously circulated. A writer, in whom Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite seemed to have great confidence, had written
a pamphlet on this subject, which was filled with mis-
representations front beginning to end. Hr meant the
late work of Mr. Montgomery Martin. By such productions
Englishmen were led to believe that Ireland did not bear a fair
share of the taxation of the empire. But he would cite the
opinions of men whose authority on the subject certainly could
not be outweighed by that of Mr. Montgomery Martin, how-
ever much Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think of that per-
son. Lord Fitzgerald, the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer
in the year 1816, when proposing the consolidation of the Ex-
chequers of the two countries, stated that Ireland had, in the
sixteen years that elapsed since the union, paid 78,000,000/. in
taxation, which was 47,000,0001. more than she was bound to
pay; and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer), in the year 1822' stated that it was then al-
lowed, on all hands, that the contribution to the taxation of the
empire of two-seventeenths from Ireland, was more than she
was able to bear. Mr. Leslie Foster bore similar testimony as
to Ireland's being overburdened with taxation. Had the Right
Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government no
remedy to offer for such a state of matters ? He ( Sir H.
Barron) believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was placed
in a false position with respect to Ireland. He believed
him honest in his intentions and opinions, but he
was diametrically opposed to the party who supported
him in that country, and how then could he hold office with
honour to himself and benefit to the country while such was
the case. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to retire from
office when he found he could not benefit the country by his
administration, or he ought to adopt measures of a really beneficial
nature. The trade and manufactures of Ireland had been de-
clining apace ever since the union. The Hon. Baronet then
quoted extracts from the speech of Dr. Boyton, a Conserva-
tive, in order to show that the trade and manufactures of Ire-
land had declined since the union. The Doctor said that the
imports and exports of Ireland had vastly diminished, that
thousands of people were out of employment, and had not the
slightest means of obtaining their daily bread. Was it not the
business of a great statesman to prevent the continuance of such
a state of things without attempting a remedy? Public works.
such as railroads, opening the mines and collieries, and clear-
ing waste lands, should be set on foot. The condition of the
people was getting worse from year to year, and by conse-
quence, crime had increased, for, in the year the Whigs went
out of office, it required only a military force of 13,000, now
double the number are requisite. The Irish people should be
governed, not by the sword, hut by enlisting their affections
He was sorry to say that those newspapers which were said to
represent the Irish Government, such as the Mail and the
Packet, were continually pouring out the vilest abuse on the
Catholic people and their clergy; and these attacks were echoed
on this side of the Channel by the limes, which used such
phrases as " surplieed ruffians," and a "demon print.

hood." He did not attribute the feelings which gave
birth to them to the English people. God forbid. He
did not believe the sensible portion of the
English people were actuated by such feelings. But, what Were
they to say to the declamations at Exeter-hall—what were
I they to say to the printed emanations of that assembly which
were circulated through hundreds of thousands of the people of
England and Ireland, and which contained such expressions as
" the awful perjury of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland," and
" the repeal of the fatal Emancipation Act ?"—( Hear, hear.)
He regretted that some Englishmen lent themselves to such
disgraceful proceedings, and participated by their presence and
approbation in such heinous slander of their fellow-subjects.
The appointments in Ireland of the present Government had
been most objectionable. Chief Justice Pennefather, one of
these appointments, had lately distinguished himself by what
was aptly termed a speech to evidence. An Irish barrister,
who was not at all interested in the fate of the traversers,
described the charge as." a speech to evidence," and as being
still more exceptionable in its manner of delivery than
in its matter. He said there never was a more disgraceful
exhibition at the Irish bar. This same Chief Justice Penne-
father had, in charging a jury, a short time ago, in a prosecu-
tion far libel against the editor of a Dublin newspaper, actually
told the jury that what they were about to try was a most dia-
bolical libel. Then, as regarded the appointments of Baron
Lefroy, arid Mr. Justice Jackson, they, too, were highly excep-
tionable. Why, the Duke of Northumberland would not let
Sergeant Lefroy go on circuit on account of his violent politics;
and the appointment of Sergeant Jackson was equally objec-
tionable, for the same reasons. He did not deny that both
were very upright, honourable men, but they were totally unfit
for the situations they now filled. The dismissal of the ma-
' gistraey was a most unwise step, particularly the dismissal of
the stipendiary magistrates, in whom the people justly placed
confidence.—( Hear, hear.) But what could lie say to the
State trials, a packed jury, a pistol Attorney-Ges
neral, and a Judge Jeffreys, as an Englishman had wittily
remarked to hire (Sir H. W. Barron) ? He asked, in
the name of the people of Ireland, and in the name of every-
thing sacred and dear to man, that that people might be go.
eerned on principles of equity, impartiality, and justice, and
that the present system of ascendancy and misgovernment
might cease for ever.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. W. REPTON opposed the motion of the Noble Lord,
Ind thought that the Government had acted wisely regarding
the Irish State prosecutions. He would not detain the House
longer than to say one word with respect to the Catholic priest-
hood. He was a sincere member of the Church of England ;
but he thought that any attempt to oppose the Catholic clergy
would be iesane, for it would create an agitation more for-
midable than that which had just been put down.—( Hear. )
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that in the whole course
of this debate, which involved so much the character of the
Government, the House had heard no expression of opinion on
the part of any member of the Government connected with
Ireland, except a Lord of the Irish Treasury (Mr. Young).
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department, indeed, had declared his views with respect to the
future government of Ireland. He had spoken out. He had
told them that he was determined to govern that country in a
constitutional manner, but that it had always been occupied by
force, and must he governed by force. So far as Ireland was
concerned the " dodging" system was given up, and the
Liberal party would know how to act. He hoped the Irish
Liberals would unite with those of this country, and no longer
divide their strength.—( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet plainly told his intentions about Ireland, but he said no-
thing of his •iews respecting the commercial policy of England.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had not used the words
that Ireland should he governed by force.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL—If the Right Hon. Gentleman
did not ray so in precisely these words he said so substantially.
He said it was absolutely necessary to maintain the Established
Church, and he was determined to do so. Now, surely that was
anintimatioe of his determination to rule by force, for the
Established Church could not be maintained otherwise than
by force.—(Cries of " No, no, no," from the Ministerial
benches.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone further,
he did say that Ireland had alwas been occupied by force, and
if lie (Mr. O'Ferrall) had not remembered exactly the words
which followed, their meaning was certainly to the effect, that
the Government must he maintained by ferce. Force was ne-
cessary to maintain the Established Church in its present false
position. No one could deny that the ministers of that Church
interfered very materially with secular affairs.—( Hear, hear.)
He had known eases in which clergymen had recommended to
the landlords that they should get rid of their Catholic tenants
and fill up their places with Pt atestants—( Hear, hear) —and
there was, therefore, a strong feeling among the peasantry in
that country, that they should be dispossessed of their farms to
snake room for Protestants. The clergy placed them-
selves in an anomalous state, and he believed that
the half secular, half religious, character of the Church
was the great cause of the excited state of that coun-
try. Now let the House consider what was the effect of the
law with respect to the certificates ? If he (Mr. More O'Fer-
rall) had occasion to prove, in a court of justice, that he was a
Christian, a certificate of baptism from a Roman Catholic
priest would not be legal evidence ; and the same rule applied
to the certificates of marriage.—( Hear, hear, hear.) So with
respect to the registration of wills, no matter in what part of
the country a man may live, he must register his will in the
diocesan courts, and everybody knew in what way the bu-
siness of those courts was neglected. Now, this was a purely
secular matter, and there was no occasion whatever for
the clergy to interfere in it, as there war already an establish-
ment for registration in Dublin, which worked very well.—
( Hear, hear.) Ile thought that the Liberal party in Ireland
ought to unite with the English Liberals, upon such a ques-
tion as the repeal of the union. He never did, and never would
conceal his opinions upon that question. but this he would
say, that the result of the union must be this, that England
must be lowered to the condition of Ireland, er Ireland raised
to the condition of England.—(Hear.) The condition of the
people of this country was much worse since the union, and was
becoming worse from year to year. The emigration of Irish
labourers into this country had increased from year to year, and
was increasing ; and if something was not done to raise the
Irish from their present poverty, the degradation of the English
labourer would go on increasing. He said this to show that it
was not Irishmen alone, but every man in that House,
and every man in England, was interested in im-
proving the condition of the Irish people—(Cheers)—.
Gentleman opposite cheered, as if they agreed in that opinion.
—(Cheers.) If they did so, why, then, not take the proper
steps to effect it ?--( Hear, hear.) It might be prejudice—
and to a great extent he admitted it was—to think that they
were not disposed to do so. But the measures they spoke of
adopting were but little calculated for the purpose. ( Hear,
hear.) Certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir James Gra-
ham) proposed to give the Catholics the power of endowing
their own Church, but it was to be borne in mind that the Ca-
tholics had already, and richly endowed their Church. They
had built churches in every parish. They had established
throughout the country rich ecclesiastical foundations, but their
churches and church lands were taken from them and given to
the Protestant clergy ; and in many of those churches, in the
. most extensive parishes, no service was at this day celebrated
by the clergy who possessed them. Now, what security could
the Catholics of Ireland have that if they availed themselves of
the proposed law a similar plunder might not again be perpetra-
ted ? The Right Hon. Gentleman promised also to introduce a
measure for the better registration of voters, but he (Mr. O'Fer-
rall) would not say anything of its merits until he knew what it
was. But he understood, from a newspaper report, that the Right
Hon. Baronet had said to a friend of his that the contemp-
lated division of the counties would strengthen the Tory inter-
est.—( Cheers and laughter.) It had been complained that
the subject of the late State Trials ought not to have
been introduced in this discussion; but he thought that it was
not possible to have omitted it in the consideration
of his Noble Friend's motion. Now, what had been
the effect of those trials upon public opinion ? What was
the opinion of the public as to the constitution of the jury ?
Catholics were rejected, and it was said that they were re-
jected, not because they were Catholics, but because they
were Repealers ; but the fact proved otherwise, for they were
not Repealers.—( Hear, hear. ) Yet if they had belonged to
that society, why were the members of the society in Dawson-
street not objected to, when it was known that they had very
strong feelings against the accused ? To this it had been an-
swered, that -it was difficult to get an impartial jury
in Ireland. But that ought to have been con-
sidered, by those who asserted it, a good reason
for having no trial at all.—(" Oh, oh," from the Tory benches.)
What, then, had been the case ?—(Hear, hear.) Could any
man believe that it had been a fair conviction ? If he (Mr.
O'Ferrall) thought that it vras a fair conviction, he would have
honestly owned it in that House. The trial had not had the
effect that it was intended, and ought to have had. If it had
been shown to the people of Ireland that the traversers were
tried in a fair and satisfactory way, the conviction would have
produced an immense moral effect, but. the only effect it could
now have would be to create distrust, in the administration of
the law, and the universal belief of the people that the
proceedings were all unfair' from beginning to end.—
( Hear, hear.) There was a strong feeling certainly
that the accident which happened to the jury list happened on
purpose. He did not think so, nor did he say it ; but he
would say that great and culpable negligence had been, ex-
hibited.—( Hear, hear.) Ile did not wish to speak of the
Attorney-General in his absence, but he would say that, from
the beginning to the end, there had been a system of blunder-
ing highly discreditable. There was nothing new in such con-
duct of law proceedings in Ireland. There had always been
an indisposion on the part of the judges and the law authorities
of the Crown to apply to the practice of the Irish Courts the
principle of justice and good sense which prevailed in the ad-
ministration of the Criminal law in England. In 1776 an
English lawyer was appointed to a Judgeship in
Ireland. lie found that it was the practice in
the Criminal Courts there that the grand juries found the
bills of indictment upon written evidence and without examin-
ing the witnesses.—( Hear, hear.) He remonstrated on the
subject with his brother judges, and recommended the English
practice of examining viva voce before the jury. But the Irish
judges replied that there was no necessity for any change, for
the Irish mode was good enough for Ireland.—( A laugh.) So
the practice continued to the year 1816, when Mr. Horner
proposed a Committee to inquire into the subject, and they re—
ported that the practice wire to find indictments upon writteii
evidence in all cases excepting that of rape, in
which the unfortunate female who was injured was compelled
to go before the jury ; and he brought in a Bill to alter the
law in that respect, and to require the indictments to be found
upon examination. But he met the greatest opposition from
all the authorities connected with Ireland, and especially from
the juries. However, the next year Mr. Horner brought in
his law, and in Committee there was only one alteration made
in it, by the introduction of a clause authorising the finding
upon written evidence in some cases. The clause was intro-
duced by Lord Castlereagh, but it was struck out in the
House of Lords by Lord Ellenborough, who said that it was the
worst clause in the Bill, and that they must not give the Irish
gentlemen se much rope as they would desire.—(Laughter. )
He also introduced a clause directing that the judges should
explain this Bill to the grand juries. Accordingly, one judge,
Lord Norbury, in expounding the Act said, that it did a great
injury to Ireland in attacking the reputation of the judges, and
compelling jurors to examine witnesses.—(Laughter.) He
' mentioned this to show that it was not a new practice in Ire-
land to interpret the law against the prisoners. They had the
admission of one of the judges that what was law in England
in favour of the accused, was not law in Ireland. They saw the
severity—almost the animosity with which the Chief Justice
addressed the jury.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But they had also
seen another difference between the practice of the English
courts and that of the Irish. If two risen were brought
before a magistrate in England, and one of them
dared to challenge the other, he would be imme-
diately committed to prison. He remembered the
case of a gentleman who, being examined in the Court of
Queen's Bench here, in what he conceived a very offensive
manner, as soon as he was dismissed from the box, he sent
"a tlsree- cornered note" to the offending counsel, and in four
hours he was sent to Nesvgate—(Hear)—and very properly.
However, that was not the case in Ireland—( Hear)—where a
gentleman, filling the position of the Attorney-General, trans-
gressed in a similar way, the Court passed it over, which he
contended ought not to have been the case. He believed that
the object of the Government was not vindication, but that the
whole conduct of the proceedings was wrong, and they had
failed to carry out their object, which was to impress the public
that justice had been done. The people felt very indignant at
the rejection of all Roman Catholics from the panel. He
would not have felt indignant if they had been rejected only as
repealers; but the fact was that they were not such. He should
have thought no more about it, but he found that it was the
servants of all work of the Government who took that invidious
task upon themselves. He found that another of the law
functionaries had, at a public meeting, spoken in a most out-
rageous manner of the Catholic people of Ireland, and of the
Catholic Members of that Hottac.fANarae named who ?

th
who?) When he yaw that a Noble Lord, a Meitheref
tie
Freaetit Government had distinguished himself by n", 1,, of
moat insulting language towards the Catholic Mom n; that
Parliament and the whole Irish people—when ho fou rotes
the man who never did one act, good or bad, withoutsne,oto
object, and who was looking for the place of the othertee',o
Lord, had spoken in a similar strain, he was bound
el-,‘"the
to the conclusion that it was the systematic polics' '
delete
Government. He thought that the Right lion Gene reolt
had spoken with more asperity than was necessary of tbs
of the trial. He had got a verdict, but when the cod
of the jury was considered, it was impossible to avoid.ltentyise
ferenee that the proceedings were unfair. The "s hie'
officer of the Crown, at a public meeting, had expretistTve, if
self in offensive terms respecting the conduct and men' r
the Irish Catholics in that House ; but when the matted the
mentioned over and over again for ten yearn, he never I,!_iens
manliness or candour to state whether he held those ol"
eefly
—( Hear, hear.) Putting all these things together theelibere
said now " there is a Tory Government in England,
was nothing to expect. If the man to whom we liint;hat fiso
cannot obtain justice, how can we?"—(Cheers.) „,2t ccooll
been the conduct of their underlings in office ? `l,hs- higher
he expected when the Government suffered the"
ears'
officers to act as they had done? Was it not a matter of foe,
that the underling should say, " Oh .' strike offerhastWO°
he's a Catholic ; the fellow will swear on his thumb. k
The belief has been confirmed in the public mind instoest
by the result of the trials. He admitted that the Govermios
had got a triumph, but they were in a more difficult
means.
t neven
than before. The country was exasperated more i
and believed that the verdict was not obtained by jatr
re re'
i 7
Ile thought that the difficulties of the Government floe°
dered insuperable; but if he ventured to state in that said,
ssiJ,
what his opinion was of the consequences, it mould But ebb'
perhaps, that his anticipations produced the result. Atchich
he would say, that there was no consideration on 'am 110°',
would induce him to stand in the position of the Rigoieh el
Gentleman the Attorney-General.—( Hear, hear.) „soil°
the responsibility, also, rested with the Noble Lordnerd,
(Lend Stanley). He knew the rashness of the noble iraittst;
in his courage and his readiness to attack any Perlis/fill'''.
ever, but he was sorry that the Noble Lord's antigen
animosity were called forth in Ireland. He assured otos
that they would never have heard of the repeal of the ore
to
if it had not been for him—( Hear, hear)—who did '-f the
exasperate the people than any other Member event; slit`
present Government? He knew the Noble Lord's strowbt
present Government? He knew (lie Noble Lord's ,tro11( ht
d fl°
niosities, which he never hesitated to express, and no atiofbil
(Lord Stanley) thought that the Government had lis
more to do than to maintain the army and the income-thx• tr,
if any struggle should arise, what was to become of
had takun no part in the agitation ? He would tell th ;ion:
Lord that he field a position which was of great reslnglibstli
The Noble Lord's Right Hon. Colleague had told Ilin;feresili
had reduced the troops in Ireland ; but he, Mr. °.OOl,
would tell him that if lie meant to govern by the Lobel
must be a long one and a strong one. He had said t"
ratan
were 23,000 troops in Ireland, but if they pursued their P 4 e
policy, he would wish that they were fifty times augefleofl
Sir J. GRAHAM rose to explain. He undellt63l.olol
Right Hon. Gentleman to have said that he (Sir J • ~, eetll°
had said that the policy of the Government would be '" for',
Ireland as a part of the British dominions by
alone. What he said was this, and it was in the reccl,oolo
of the House, that the Established Church of Ireland s",)
maintained in ail its rights arid privileges.—( Hear, hearacreinr,
stated that it was necessary, so late as Marcia, 1843, tc'ree i 't
the military force of Ireland, and that when they 00,5
office the military force in Ireland was diminished. e
on to state that it became necessary to increase th we
th
consequence of the attempts which were made to ole od be
Government by the demonstration of physical forcPthe
added, that it was not to be the permanent policy 0',01.10,
vernment to hold Ireland by military force, but al foree'ri
eating the supremacy of the law, and nit leaving tone ethei;
the one hand or yielding to intemperate counsel on testltaab
they would retain to the Crown of this country that n 1 ,
portion of her Majesty's dominions.— ( Cheers.) ',eV/7;
Mr. SIIAW said that he would not have troubled t' ()I/ten
militartieeno.,
at least not at the present time, had he not been s° pit' HpOb
referred to by the Noble Lord opposite, and his Bit, ter ''sl
il
Friend ( Sir James Graham), during the Iresent del: gener
regard to the omission of the sixty na ses 0•33' tunable tl'
06
jury list. It therefore became necessary for bill to;;',eolik'4o
House with a few observations, and, in doing t n"
requisite to refer to the details of the Act of rarliainen a.
which the special jury was made out. ( The Right Ole On,
tleman then went on to detail what was requisite te'ereeebe
under the Act of Parliament.) A great deal of ini;S„rn Of tere
tation had gone abroad with regard to the onn"—aie
names from the list. Now the real facts of the c eiaid.c;
these. Instead of sixty or sixty-five names beinf .
thirty of whom were said to be Roman Cathe'll'afeePj
were nineteen names omitted, and five were wrongly P 4,00111
the list ; and this happened in transferring betwee" beta 's,
5,000 names. The result was that, instead
sn
names on the general list, there were only 717* trials,
citement prevailed in Dublin respecting those tso ot
counsel and attorneys on both sides attended his Court
tend to the making out of the general list. The f Nore3,
for nine hours on each day from the Bth to the 14th 'o,bieli3O
ber. The parish collectors made out a general list, ars gin die
revised in his Court. When revised a coPY to jr,
to the Clerk of the Peace, who handed " nrts",,ce'
Sheriff. Dublin was divided into twenty iegsel'at,
from which a list of 4,000 names was made. In c°,11.1011/.'d
of the difficulties the collectors had to make 0"‘ ;tied' ,le
there were about 600 persons whose names were e'332 -t Onto
of theirGeot
which were afterwards added to the 4,000. The gre,,-sble
was to have the names put at, the top of the list, to "-aerse're
to be on the Special Jury. The names were to be, t diet
. d tpa
according to rank and property, and it was require
_toe
sbr
should be nine classes of qualifications. If a person e,'ooiti;
his right to be placed on the list, his name had to be th" stlere,
and a cross was placed opposite to his name to draw4bey theirs
tion of the officer to it, that it might be transferred eels
gistrar. He took each of the 20 parishes; and when 4jeisi ebi
of each were disposed of, he considered that his J" nfirol'oe
tions were performed, and in that opinion be was coni-inistrs,o,
Mr. Justice Perrin. But there was a duty of an ~
lisesrsfed
nature to be performed, namely, to have the genelay orrre,
perly arranged according to rank and property.
_toes le yx)
the registrar so to arrange the list, and to put the l'„e, 4're'
gular alphabetical order. There were, therei°•-the
or 4,600 names altogether, and out of then' in,,t:oe
gistrar took 717 for the Special Jury ljt.
of 741, thus making a difference of twent;l, Abe
he came to the explanation as to how they were Oinitt,. Arne
did so from the statement made to him by the registre'lore th'is
was bound to add, after the strictest investigation tnati,eh of "tc
subject by himself, that he was satisfied of the truh'e tRe to
statement. He stated, that as a list from each of rt,-,setn",e,
parishes had been returned separately, he thought 'the Pre,
more simple to take each class by itself. He took uPtberefeets
ral list and read the marked names. There were'e sk
rat nine classes for each parish, which he placed on sePs is, Woe
of paper. There were, therefore, 180 sheets, thatiailed °re"
parishes multiplied by the nine classes. These lie 00,0 0
and checked with the original list ; having, as be tiler 00re
plated this, he put by the general list. The next step R 0
be
make, from the nine classes of the different parishes,
utreseve
ral class to constitute the general list. For this „Pe of tsiert
laid on the table the several sheets for use. vrbeloritd
sheets, containing 15 names of the class called traderooheetni'mt
to St. Audeon's parish, was mixed with the blank found 40
laid aside. 1 hen upon going over the names he a thatdere
f fur of the names were altogether overlooked, an arias
others, not having the proper crosses opposite their helot,
transferred into the common list instead of the ePriury
as to be omitted altogether from the Frei"
rble
Thus it was that the omission of twentysfour natnegovou'efli
With regard to the remaining thirty-six the Bight itorePoe
Gentleman was understood to say that they we bail the
dbis
nobs
pnt on the list, and, as one instance, he said de,a,
of William Saurin, of Stephen's-green, who '',4s,afiressifed
one of the names. His Right Hon. Friend ha" jib reit; er
regret to him that there should be any error, n„„,eirk
those lists, and he would not obtrude upon the "0, r'otell
pression of his own regret. The fact was, 6111 a seCeur
bt
and he was over-fastidious to have everything °os& „retr4
and correctly. Immediately after the list we"., that hs,
wrote to one of the officers of the Court, h°P“S'„.,''' e nacres
thing was complete. On being informed that swit rigi', re'
been omitted, he wrote to the Sheriff to Put ',jell Pee
the Sheriff was advised not to touch the het. Wereltie"
ceived. The four names which had been ornitte fjoyl
ihst
of Sir George Roe, the late Lord Mayor ;
Reynolds, and another gentleman, and when naigirrodei
this was the case he immediately wrote to the i`ioesellotferete
saying he thought he might insert their movie; then of ell'
the 24th section of the Act of Parliament. heriff,' esto,e:ei
to give an amendment of the list to the dfligu" orifte° eosin h
upon himself the responsibility of adding the ed been
Upon searching for the fifteen names which had et 00 Po
from the list from St. Audeon's parish, the ek3 sheet:,
they were placed was found amongst the
then spoke to the officer of the Court, and sa`uti4 inPrdief o'l
have committed this error you must go 3) Ile f cli°l;
„No
01 the
solicitors of both parties of the error.''—(llear'seuse °hennae(
upon his own responsibility, and from a., sheet, 'e heitif
With regard to the fifteen names on the mishit° but his e
inquired whether they were Protestants or not
'the elai)oirtie4;
was, judging from the names and localities, thle the res so go
them were Roman Catholics, but the majority' °:_„„
nine were Protestants. Considering that
through between 4,000 and 5,090 names, g Poilber
there was any very great negligence in onylefib a nu 110,
names, and in the chance of a ballot among 0;04, the flee;
741, he did not think, if they were not 00' lvflooa,
could have been much different from what it v'ars 0t that
would allow him to add, also, that the regi3tr", 010107,00';
Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) If he believed for one; es, hews.;
he fraudulently or corruptly left out those. n_....a(ge5r.,..,
11/1,14
expose him and subject him to punishrtienist flouhe• he t-f
in
He
the knecityw nit whatblin, w mighere ht behe saiwasd inkno' hio, Ot; e, hs
fro fit
11l
no person of any class or creed would thi"....,(Cheetsee
lending his countenance to any push thing•
no leech aro,
both sides of the House.) He was satisfieucsionsuo,63g re
party kind could have influenced him tosan ,t
e 3 cce
ceeding.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that.hie oainrespl,
mistake on the part of his registrar that. "'self the ten
ae.j
omitted, but he was content to take upon hint' had wal,
sibility and blame of what hrd occurred. j
1 ired hue
tacked, and was subjected to the abuse of attacit
t
those who followed him in this debate migin) "tbao/,,,
he was content to submit to it all.—(Ghcers' 1 Ile I
the House for the credit they ga,e
..to thsti.fel'hps
accused of negligence, but it was unintentiobniai•siasegeoe,re'n
(Cheers.) He would now advert very briee) eat 'A r.° e
ith neat
el the rfi'
question before the House. He heard et so
od. be
what had fallen from the Right Hon. 1381°_hn
Lord with regard to the Established Churc_nood, fle
Noble Lord, however, seemed " to "hors. /
ld
Church cf be tie. ltr"
was not quite prepared "to strike. --(C 'Cheer 'be '
there the advocate of the Protestant shoo'
._e vie tam
the Protestant religion as established by la on of tn_atob,,t
in connexion with the State in every Pen*Lift appear:oy ,be
Kingdom.—(Cheers and counter cheers)
,„0 Lord t
son it),
to be strange political morality in the IN
_tiowo persueotegroet
because the majority of the people were
,auin all its „,tores..oo,
Established Church should not be upheld
that the „tap,
lhe Noble Lord ought to recollect
ou,, never leoteete,,
Parliaments which passed the union sc „Tye the
tti"Jecon
bled
Cillsveer": 'l.' of P'''syte
fribut`u" ernes rentedchor,
ht to
ot that
imane
was
to
if tbhoe yodpihde
ldnoL
cheers.) He spoke of a conreational. :
the former roe
as being preferable to a territorial one, but
blishment.—(Cheers.) The Right lion.
made in_teveroct
alluded to the alterations and improvemenuteraori
characteristic of a sect, the latter was the es'Gsnencetie. 01,011:e ferll,
Protestant Church, and said it was urne,!t__ed fro
e,
after the Roman Catholic occupiers were t has aeceniyeroet.ool;
rates and tithes to attack the lirotestan. tr: alive rhea
Nothing was more calculated to,•„t‘_er? 0.0 anoc7chotiPoe,
in Ireland.—( Opposition cheers. ) t his
that the Irish Members were very mina; opp op osed ;
more violent in their attacks dome .11
tic peo:',`Odsti,
( Hear, hear.) All they wanted wasn___e of G
oofb
on this subject ; but English Member_
ewerrsei; Aleriiib"
cal cheers.) Let them have it in the_"Tfear, Wong en_sofs
up their prejudices towards each other. Le was strprotcster,)
fish gentlemen seemed to think no langunat., hirth,.egr, he...bat
to use towards those who were Irishme sided, adm
tau religion, and Conservatives in in
iation jot. ,rce
Eniancil .txr sP rosel 5
was his opinion with regard to the a shall d the so
What he wished was, that nothing'
expected to be met on the other
in.sidelolcs bon° einatiqurd
certainly considered the Roman Cal patron
to leave the Protestant Church unattacked if m?
t'ot, 10ev
conceded.—(No, no.) Certainly Mr. `;',at, i, „ fedtle
shPoUld b.e tineCt.Act! Ile
Plunket and others were of opinion
.i.,Quid vg
sure were passed, the Netablithed Churcn "