The Sun.
London, England, 1810-02-13 00:00:00

CRIMINAL LAWS.

Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY brought up three Bills for
iinprovernetit of the Criminal Laws, which were
read a first ti+ne, and ordered to be read a second
time on Monday next. He then gave notice that he
would call the attention of the House to the sub-
jea of transportation, which he had noticethon Va.;
day last, on some intervening day. Hebegged leave
correm a iris-staternent Wliich he had made on
that day; it was in the proportions of the number
of pt:r,,ons found guilty to • those. Who were corn-
ni:(ted, which were greater than he had -stated
ti,Lin,to he.

Mr. ftvina brought up certain, Papers relative
to the Expedition to the Scheldt, according to the
K►ng's order, which were ordered to lie on the table.

SINECURE PLACES.

Mr. FULLER rose, in pursuance of notice he
bad given, to move for leave to bring in -a Bill for
the Abolition of Sinecure Places. He observed,
that it was impossible for him to do better than to
read the words of that great and illustrious man,
Lord Chief Justice Hale. He accordingly read an
extract from his observations, stating, that 'there
were a number of Officers in the Exchequer'; who
did not attend, or if they did, it was to sit• formally
in their gowns, without putting their hands to any
kind of business. Among these were the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, Chief Clerk of the Pipe,
ComptrollerS, and even Auditors, who did nothing.
There were a great many men who aded by deputy,
and by these means both the King and the People
suffered, and were imposed upon. Such were the
worcfs-,of Lord Hale. There was nothing to be
found of such matters in the institutes of 'King Al-.
fred, aid what was the conseqUence now ?—why
the oppression extended even to the West Indies, as
th Hinters, who were losing money, were obliged'
to pay 2 per cent. port duties, to enrichehose drones,
in society, thole sinecure placemen. He declared he
was not against the influenceof the Crown, he was
willing to see it still increase, because it must be the
conseeuenc& of the immense increase of the Reve-
nue.. ,The attack he made was not upon the influ-
ence of the. Crown, but upon that avaricious part of
the Aristocraci who provide for the younger
branches of their fancily, by .putting into their
pockets the money of, the country for doing no-
,ieg, whatever; and womild be Well repaid for' what-
ever they do if their pockets were filled with brick
Oust. :(A load laugh.) The sum drawn from the
very bowels of the public by sinecure placetnen ap-
peare.d, from the 76th page of the Appendix of the
Report of the Finance Committee,. to amormt to
355,0001. Now, in his, opinion, 55,0001. would
be sufficient 'to reward all that deserved reward, ,
and then there would be a saving of 300;000l. a
year to the public. He would not take aw,ay. from'
the remuneration of an immortal Nelson or the di-
vine Mr. Pitt—no, he would protect his Majesty
by giving him good Ministers; and not had men
about his person, sctch as Walpole, who, when he
was (lying, turned his :face from his physician, that
he might not see the agonies- of a wicked and a
-vicious, mind. * He therefore concluded by moving,.
" For leave, to bring in a Bill to abolish sinecure-
places, and to reduce the enormous emoluments
arising out of others, after the lives of the present
vosseisors.-
Mr.'l.l. THORNTON agreed with the object which
the Hon. Gentleman had in view, but he wished
him to defer it, 'as he considered his motion as pre-
mature, as the Finance Committee bad the subjed
undr consideration. There was a great difficulty;,
he observed,' In enumerating the places that ought
to be abolished, and seleEting those that were per-
formed by deputy. The Hon. Member, he be-
l'eved, hid otter state() the amount of the rggregaie
sum paid to sinecure placeinew, and recommended
to him to, defer bringing in his Bill to a future day.

The Hon. Mr: 8V0(n said he woald vote for the
motion, but at the same time declared, it did not
appear to him in that point of view so often repre-
sent;d by others. He had no share in vulgar pre-
ju&lices, but as to the crown having the right of
granting pensions, as adding to its influence, was
certainly, with many, a' doubtful point. Thirty
years ago it-was resolved by that House that the in-
tiu-nee of' the Crown had increased, was increasing,
and ought to be diminished ; and what was it now ?
it perva,led every part of the Country ; none were
SO rich, 'or-so powerful, or so insulated, as not to
be exposed to -n; either themselves, or in their con .
neetion.Q. No one was mote attached to their Mo-
narch than himself, but that very attachment 'in-
him in his .vote He 'wished to diminish
the influence of the Crown, lest it should extin,'
guish the other parts of the Constitution, or be it-
self
extiuguisited. He wished to, prevent its over.
growth, that he might fix.it on a firmer, broader,
I, d securer basis. • 'There were two sorts of reform ;
,a.reinvin in 'tire great. departmervs of State, and
a refmn in oiir method of conduCting the wari It
would be in vain to teach the people any other.—
That was the- use of being economical, if. the
Irons of their economy were to be wasted in dis;
gracelnl and Calamitous expeditions to Walcheren
aid Spain ? Was there not more expended last
summer than would buy the, fce simple of all the
sinecures.in the King's gift. There was not, he was
sure, ady thing more expensive than an obstinate,
'weak, and projeAing Ministry ; and he would tell
the Hon. Mover, that one vote given against tho,se
whom he supports, would by of more real service
than the bi propoed
`The CHANCELLOjt of the EXCHEQUER Said, he
rose to say a few words in ennsequence.of what had
laiien (ruin the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
dawn, who had taken an opportunity of making
v veral observations which had not the slightest con,
neliion with the subject before the House. He cer-
tainly did not expect, upon a motion for the. aboli-
tion §itiecureplacesi to be called upon to enter into
e,tigation 'of the policy of the Expedition to
of Scheldt, or of the merits of the Campaign in
§.O and 1'9141/I:gai• 41.4 the4o there points which

in' ariably formed parts of the speeches of the Hon.
Geetlemen-opposite. tp him; whatever might be the
real subject before, the Honse. The reason was ob-
vious—they disliked the -present Ministers, and
wished to'reinove them ;—.l..it they also wished at
the same time to succeed to their places. This' was
the reason why the Hon. Gentlemen were indifferent
about motions efdomestic ecunomy,or partial reform
" These," said they, " are trifling and ineffectual
measures; but if you want real, economy, if you
want efficient teforme if you want a cost vigorous
and able administration, if you the co•csuitie
mation'of political wisdom, if you want a constella-
tiOn of, talent, make us Ministers, and your object
is accomplished." Ailing upen these principles,,
and influenced by these views, they had toll the
Hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion,
that he had not pursued 6 right cause,—that instead
of bringing a motion for the abolitioieof sinecures,
he ought to join their phalanx, and endeavour to
place them at, the helm, and- then every thing would
be right—every thing_ would -be prosperous. The
Hon. Gentleman who 'spoke last had said, that his
• objed was to diminish the power of the Crown,
and that the present Ministers remained in office by
the influence of the Crown. This was a most sin-
gular proposition • to come from that side of the
House; it was strange to hear them talking about
the present Ministers being supported by the patro-
nage of the Crown, and the disposal of sinecure
Offices; Did not that Hon. Gentleman know; did
not every Man in the House know, that there were
persons of the same party--with the_Hor. Gentle-
men opposite to him, who 'possessed a larger, a
much larger proportion of such- places than those
who were in 'his Majesty's Government ? When
such was the fad, and he challenged any "one to
deny 'it, was it fair, was it just, was it honest, 'to
attempt to mislead the public with such assertions
as he had alluded to ? With resped to the motion,
he could not agree with it : no pra&ical man could
seriously adopt it. -If the Hon. 'Gentleman who
had spokelast had,loeked at the motion with any
other view but as a subjed of-declamatien, he never
would have' supported it. It must be quite obvious
to every one who'conaidered this subject maturely,
and who had attended, to the Reports of the Com-
mittees, that there %vete numerous shades and ds-
tinetions in these offices, which rendered it Mapes,
sib* to proceed with such a sweeping general mea-
sure as the
,present,- •It had been admitted by all
sides, that if these places were abolished, some
substitute must be provided in their room. If that
were the case, it would be worth Gentlemen's while
to consider whether it would. not be better to leave
things as they are, than to abolish all theSe places
at once. With reaped to the allusion wh:ch 'had
been made to the famous resolution of Mr. Dun-
ning, that the influence of the Crown had increased,
was increasing, and ought •to be diminished, he
begged to say that he utterly denied the. assertion of
the 'Hon. Gent. that the influence of the Crown
had' increased since that time. Since that. time all
•Mr. Btirke's Pins 'Of Reform, and all Mr. Pitt's
'plans, which wore much-more extensive, had been
adopted: It - was said:that the influence of the
Crown had increased with •the .increased expendi-
ture ; but there was a general increase' of wealth in'
the- country, which more than counterbalanced
the increasing influenceof the Crown. The weight
of the People in the Government, from their wealth,
from their information, from their intelligence, and-
frOm a variety of other• causes, had kncreased. te . a
-much greater degree than the influence of the
Croen since the period of Mr. Dunning's „Resolu-
tions. The Hon. Gentleman_ had talked about
the "expence of nefortunate Expeditions •being
much greater than that of sinecure places. No man
could deny that the -expence cif a war was much
greater than Via' of such establishments as these,
and that Expadi.ions-, -whether fortunate or unfOr-
innate, cost more money than a few sinecure-offices;
but that wasenot the time to discuss the merits of
Expeditions. These were points which . must be
discussed upon their own _separate grounds.- They
could not form any part of such a, question as they
were then debating. With respe& to the proposed
Bill, he certainly did think it was premature, and-
therefore he could not consent to it.
Mr. LAMB thought sinecures a very great detri-
ment. When public service required, they were
not vacant to reward it; and although in reading
over the list many names might be recognised which
were closely conceded with some signal -public ser-
vice, yet many would be met which could not haVe
gained admission there without Ministerial influ-
ence ; he vished their abolition, therefore, that that
notion might no longer "exist on the public mind.
Mr. CaiseveY begged leave ta ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor Of the Eiche,"
quer) whether the increase of our Colonies did not
add to the influence Of the Crowd, whether the-di-
vision of India with the Directers was nothing,
whether the Admiralty Droits were nothing.? They
amounted to eight millions;_ two only of which
were applied to. the public service,•besidea a large
.snm which was 'given' to a Member of that House:
Was. it nothing to. have - brought the 'Bank of
England to the foot of the throne? Nothing
to have the whole commercial interests of the'
kingdom dependant on the Crown ? Was it not
owing to this enormous influence that such a
Government as the present could exist ? , Was
it to be endue-el 'that the City of London should be
taunted? Their* petitions were received and an-
swered at the end'of the American war; now they
-could not be received. Sinecures were now so in-
creised, that even the subordinate Officers of the
Cron possessed, their. He did not like putting
them in this way out of the 'reach of the House of
CoMmons. If one df those Gentlemen now were
caught tripping, why he would retire on his sine-
cure and laugh in their faces. After aefew more ob-
servations, Mr. Creevey cOncluded by voting for the
[notion. • •

Mr. R. S. DUNDAS adverting to•the observations
,made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, on the offer
of a peerage by
_the Crown to -Lord Melville, de-
clared that •he did not consider that Hon. Gentleman
a fit judge of the propriety of the over. He ap.:
pealed to the country whether an individual who
had so eminently served the public, ought to be
spoken of in the language used by that Him. Gen,
tleman, and in which he trusted there were but feW
disposed to cunctir with him. Justice- did not al-
low tharthe charaaer of any one who had been
cleared by the tribunal before Whom he had been

brought for trial, should be thus wantonly and un-
fairly Traduced.

Lord A. rims .anxious that such a propo-
sition as that before the House should not be ne-
gatived from an• inaccuracy in its cons:ruction, re-
connnended to the Hon. Mover to withdraw it in
preference.
_ _ _

- Mr. BANKS said, that if the Hon. 11,1einber was
sincere in his intentions, which he did think he

IV S

Mr. Fut.t.ta called to order, and appealed ta the
Speaker whether it was allowable that the sincerity
of one Han. Member should be questioned by..
another.

Tile Speaker observed that the Hon. Gentleman
was iolalty mistaken;

Mr. 'BAN KES repeated, that so far from doubting
the Hon. Gentleman's sincerity, he had expressed
his conviction of it.—(Mr. Fuller' begged pardon.)
—But the more he believed that. Hon. Gentleman
to be sincere, the more desirous he was that he
would not press the present motion. At ail times,
and More especially in times of such pressure as.the
present, the reduction •of the number of sinecure
places, and of the emoluments of- those oili es
which resembled sines Tres in their character, was a
consideration of great public utility ; but it was lit-
terly impracticable to obtain the desired end by the
means proposed by the Hon. Gent. The first thing to
be done was to adopt some distinct resolution de-
claratory of the principle upon which the House in-
tended to proceed itf.this business. It had been
said that if sinecures were abolished,. Other 'modes
must be resorted to equally burthensome to the
Public, in order, to reward meritorious public ser-
vices. This was oely partially true. It frequently
happened that a sinecure became
.vacaot, when no
immediate public -service was 10 be rewarded.--
It was then bestowed to- increase Ministerial influ-
ence. It frequently happened, tooe that when a
public service was to be immediately rewar,led, no
sinecure place was vacant ; the consequence Was,
the increase of the burthens of the country, by the
granting of a pension. An instance of the latter was
the pension recommended to be granted to Lord Wel-
lington, than whom, at the same time, he must say,
no manlwas mon; worthy of public gratitude. On the
one timid, it did not follow because a declaration had
been made thirty years ago, that the influence of tire
Crown ought to be diminished, that such a declara-
tion should be considered a vital and per manent prin-
ciple.of the Constitution. On the other hand it did
not folloW; because considerable reductions had, at
various periods, been made in that influence,that it had
theretore beep sufficiently reduCed. The tact was,
that notwithstanding the great reduffions that had
been made- in the influence the Crown in conse-
quence of Mr. Burke's and Mr. Pitt's measures for
that purpose, the prodigious increase of revenue and
the enlargement of the public establishments had
much more than counteracted those reduaions.

The CHANCELLOR Of the Excn ;muEtt explained,
and- Mr. Fuller . apulogised•for having interrupted
Mr. Banes.

Mr. WHITBREAD recommended the Honourable
Mover to withdraw his proposition, for which, how-
ever, it he should persevere in pressing it, he would
unquestionably vote. A.dVerting to the subject of
sinecures he stated an instance in which a sinecure
of *importance was vacant when the country was
called upon to reward one of the greatest services ever
rendered to it. That sinccore, however, was not made
-the reward as it ought to. have bren. The case he al-
luded to was that of Lord Nelson. Soon after that
Gallant Hero fell in the arms of victory, or at least be-
fore the grant of a pension. to his successor was made
out, the Wardenship of the Cinque Ports became va-
cant, than
_which nothing could ,be conceived as a
more:appropriate reward ter a naval service. Instead,
however, of its being so given, it was presented to
the Earl of Liverpool, and the nation Were compelled
to provide in another mode (which they certainly did
with a grateful feeling) for the family of t! e gallant
hero. .This. was an instance among an hundred.
In a few days the public would have an oppertu-
nity of seeing how another important sinecure was
to be bestowed. The Right Hononrabie Gentle-
man opposite had. declared, that his political ad-
versaries in that House were 'envious of his situa-
tion. For his part, he knew no situation so little-to
'be envied. The Right Honourable Gentleman was
what he was,only because nobody else would be what
he was. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
near him was a Secretary of State, only because the
Hon. Gentleman next him would not be Secretary
of State ; and the Noble Lord at the end of. the
Bench held the situation which he oecuoied,,
only because noboby- else would take it. If he
and his lytends wished to get rid of the present,
Administration," it was because they wished to
get rid of impotence—it was because they wish-.
ed to get rid of intolerance—it was because they
,b
igoted
spirit, to get rid of that meddling and bigoted
spirit, which, it it were not' checked, would
set not only this country, but all its colonies in
flames. For his part he was no candidate for office,
but as the friend to his country he wished to get
rid of the Right lion„ Gentlemen opposite; let who
would be their successors. Alluding to a recent
occurrence in which a Member of that House had
been accused of a breach of Parliament, he express-
ed his hope that that person would not be 'allowed
to accept a nominal place for the purpose of with-
drawing from Parliament, and in that case, should
he be fourid guilty, of eluding the heaviest punish,-
mem the House could
Mr. FULLER declared his readine,s to withdraw
his motion, provided any one would give a distinct
pledge that he would at a fixed period bring the sub-
jea before Parliament; otherwise he was deter-
Mined to persevere if he went on alone on the
question: It was a subjea that did not- admit of
delay. He was equally adverse to the °pillions of
the Hon. Baronet, who;. on a recent occasion, had
called the House of Commonsa room ; and to those
of that- great genius who had declared that the
existence of party was necessary to the welfare of
the country.. Party ! Mr.'Speaker, exclaimed Mr.
Fuller, in a tnne of peculiar animation, patty, Sir !
I should like to know whether the great men of
antiquity were party-men—was Cicero a party-man ?
(a laugh)--Were the Scipios party-men ?—(a loud
laugh)-7-The only party they had was their country.
With respeel,to the Gentleman to whom the last •
speaker had alluded, he had an opportunity of knotto
ing' that his, owo reflections had punished him suf-
ficientiy.

.14NE.Es undertook to bring the sub.e4 be.

fore rh'3 }louse in another form, and when pressed
by Mr. Fuller:to state the time, ha replied that be
would do so
.on, the discussion of the resolutioni,
which stood fot 'Thursday next.
The motion was then. wlthdraWn.
- " EPPEDITION TO THE SCHELDT.

Mr. PONSONBY observed, that he understood his
Noble Friend near
_him (Lord Porchester) had re-
ceived a request from alloble Lard deeply interested
in the inquiry before the House. (Lord Castlereagh),
not to proceed with the Inquiry that night, in con-
sequence of the death of a near relation (his Lord-
-ship's sister), which had wholly incapacitated him
Freon attending in his place: He hoped the general
feeling of the House would induce them to comply
with the request of the Noble Lord, who had.added
that he would be ready to attend on Thursday. He
Wasidesirous. therefore, that the discussion of his
Hon. Friend'S. resolutions which stood for Thursday,
should be postponed, in order that no delay might
taka_place in the Inquiry into the Walcheren Expe-
,dition, - and he would propose that day fortnight for
the discussion'of the Resolutions, by which perind.
the Inquiry would probably be closed..
Mr. FREDERICK 'ROBINSON observed, ' that- his
Noble Friend (Lord , Castlereagh), in consequence
of a severe and unexpe&ed 'domestic calamity, was
wholly incapacitated from attending his duty in that
House. When his Noble Friend communicated 10
him the distressing circumstance he (Mr. Robinson)
offered to state the feet to the House, and to leave
them to determine on the propriety of poStponing
the Inquiry. In this offer his Noble Friend acqui-
esced, but desired it Might be clearly understood that
'he had no claim on the 'Tomato do any think for
his personal accommodation. The part which his
Noble Friend had taken through the whole of the
business 'sufficiently evinced his disposition not Co
retard 6r embarrass the Inquiry. It would, per•
haps, be but fair, therefore, foc the House to con-
sent to a moderate delay. His Noble Friend had
declared his intention, if possible, of coining down
to the House. on Thursday. Should he not be able
to do SO, he was sure that his Noble Friend would
not wish for any further interruption of-the proceed-
ings.

Lord PoRduESTEIi expressed his perfeEt readiness
to acquiesce in the postponement of further proceed»
ings until Thursday. He was desirous, hgwever, that
the House should go into a Committee to-night,
merely to enable an Hon. Naval Officer' to lay on
the table certain_ Memoranda, in order- that 'they
might be printed. .

Lord PAL M E r.TO NE preSented a Return of the C 9.
sualties iii the Army lately employed in the Expedi.
Lion to the Seheldt.—Ordered Co lie on the Table.
His Lordship also presented the Army Estimates fur
the year, and gave notice that he would move them
in the Committee of supply.on Monday next.—The
Estimate's were ordsfred to be printed. -
Mr. CRoluut presented Copies of the Oaths adm
ministered in Naval Courts Mariial.—Ordered to lie
on the Table.
_ .

' The House then tesolired inself-into a Commit-
tee of Inquiry into the, policy' and conduct of, the
expedition to the
,4chehit, Mr. klobhouse in the
Chair.

Lord PoitcEtEsTEa wished to ask an Honourable)
'RA-OmA whetLer he had brought with 'him the me-,
morauda which-he had altuded to in- his last exami-
nation ?

Sir liontE POPHAM replied ilia he had.
Lord PORCO ESTER then requesred him to be so
good as to produce them, them, }thick he accord-
ingly did.

. . . ,
" A discussion ensued between Mr., Croker, Mr.
Tierney, Lord Dorchester, and Sir Home Popham"
respecting a conversation t:tween Sir Home Pop'
ham and the First Lord of the Admiralty, in the
midst ot which Mr. Yorke moved the standing order
for the excursion of strangers.
• The Gallety was then cleared, but as we under-
stood,: nothing further was done than putting some-
questions to Sir Home Popham respecting the in-
struqions Which had tieen given to him; and then•
the further examination of witnesses was postponed
till Thursday, to' which day -the, CQtnmittee was
postponed,=—The.House then adjourAed at half-past
nine o'clock, 'till to-morrow.

MAILS.
•
Aaary ro—t Waterford. vue—s Gottenburgll, t
2 Waterford.

PRICE OF .STOCKS
THIS DAY AT TWELVE O'CLOCK.

Consols
67 63

'l'U E S Ii N.

SOL.EO4,QUIS DICIRZ FALSOM AUDEAT ?

LONDON,

- - - -~---

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 1810.

The following is the French account of the Ac-
tion beteen our frigate the Junon and the French

frigates :

Extiad froM the Report of the Captain of the frigate, Roque-
•-bert, commanding his Majesty's frigate RenOmmie, to the
Minister of ,'Marine :
On the t3th of DeCember, the frigate, La‘ Ro-.1
,nornmee , undei my command, .and La Clorinde,
Capt. St. CRICQ., being with the transports, under,
our convoy, in lat. 17. 6.1 T. and 62 W. we de.
scried at half-past twelve, p. m. a large frigate and 3
brio., enemy's vessels, to wit:award. .
b'.
" By manceuvring on both sides we came about
half-past five within gun-shot.
" Shortly after, having, closed within nearly pis.
tol-shot, the Clorinde and Renomm de opened their
fire upOn the enemy's frigate, which presented her
starboard side to rne.

" This very destruOive discharge,' however,
the enemy answered by but an, ill direied fire, iind
shortly he valiantly attempted to tack and pass un-
der the 'stern of La Retionimee. I succeeded in
avoiding this'-attempt,, to-rlke me, and gave him a
broacl-side point blank, Capt. ST.' ChICQ, La Clo-
rinde, who.was,to windward, immediately .lufted,op
and fell aboard her on one side, while I fell award
on the other.

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