The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

GRANT TO MAYNOOTH.

—( Hear, hear.) He had within the last ten years been
persecuted, not prosecuted, and if he had not had the means of
defence himself, -he should have been cast into a gaol,
—( Hear, hear)—and now was he to be told
that he was a bigot. Of all the debates that had been brought
before the House since he had entered it, none of them had
ever exhibited so extraordinary a species of reasoning as that
one. The Hon. Member for Pontefract had enlightened them
on this question, and what did he say ? He felt in his con-
science that it was impossible to justify the Right Hon. Baro-
net on any other ground than that of expediency.—( Hear,
hear.) Expediency. therefore, was the better •pt inciple.
( Hear, hear.) In fact, in all debates in that House having re.
lation to Ireland, expediency was the rule, and principle was
the exception. If Hon. Members believed that this was a
safe because a final measure, they would find themselves
mistaken. Mr. O'Connell, in his honest speech in Conciliation-
Hall, attributed to agitation the measure which was now be-
fore the House. He thanked Conciliation-hall for it, and
stated that they would take that in receipt, and wait for what
they could further get. Did they recollect the Catholic
Emancipation Bill ? Did they recollect the agitation for re.
peal? He thought they would find that every large concession
had paved the way for fresh demands. Another Mem-
ber had risen, the representative for Nottinghamshire
(Lord Lineoln). The Noble Lord said that inasmuch
as Government had thought fit to hold up the cup of bliss to
the lips of the Roman Catholics, that House would not be
justified in dashing it to the ground. Were they to be told
that they had no right to judge of what was brought before the
House by the Frime Minister? Why, in that case, the
sooner they went home to their wives and firesides the better.
—(Laughter. ) The Prime Minister, in that case, would be a
despot, and they would be his slaves.—( Hear, hear.) Their
occupation would be gorie.—( Laughter.) lie did net
see the Right Honourable Baronet in his place, and
he had a great objection to speak of any man behind his back
hut he had said in that House before that he did not care whe-
ther the Right Hon. Paronet or the Noble Lord governed the
country. It was a toss up between them.—(Laughter.) But
now his opinion was entirely cliang:d. This measure brought
forward by the Right Hon. Baronet, after he had climbed into
power by the avowal of certain principles, looked as if, without
any reason, he turned round upon his friends and sought pro-
tection from his enemies.—( Hear, hear.) If a man deceived
him (Mr. Murez) once, he believed he would de-
ceive him always, no matter were he the Prime
Minister or the lowest person in the country, and
he would never have confidence in that man again.
The Hon. Member for Canterbury stated that by giving a good
education to the priests they would lose their influence over
the people, and that by making the priests above the people
would render them useless. It was said also by a Noble Lord
that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
was the best hand at dressing up a mets in that House ; he
might have gone further and stated that he was better able to
bait a trap than any other Gentleman in the House.--( Laughter. )
When he came forward with the property tax he caught all the-
Gentlemen at his side of the House, and they complimented
him on the measure which he brought forward. And what did
he do how ? He consented to conciliate the people of
Ireland with a grant to their clergy, and he baited his trap
with education, and he caught all the gentlemen on the Oppo-
s;tion side of the House. Several gentlemen told him that,
though they ought to vote against the measure from principle,
and ridicule it on account of the men by whom it was intro-
duced, yet they could not oppose it as it was for educational
purposes. That was the bait, and it was well placed, for he
caught them altogether.—( Laughter. ) The great question
was, if the Irish wanted priests, why did they not pay for
their education? But that was easily answered by them.
They said that there was the absenteeism, which
drained the country, and they ought not on that account to pay
their priests. If their gentry go to other countries to spend
six millions of money per annum, they cou'd not blame them
(the English) for not paying their priests for them.—( Hear,
hear.) What was the real position of Ireland? Let them
look back to the year when the income.tax was introduced.
There was at that time no income-tax laid upon Ireland. A
spirit duty anti a stamp duty were introduced in its stead, the
former of which was afterwards taken off. Then they were
told that they ought to pay for the support of the priests, be-
cause the Irish were in need. Could not they subscribe 10,0001.
a year for the repeal? Could not they subscribe 10,0001. to
anything they liked for the sake of agitation ?—( Hear, hear.)
But they could not subscribe for the education of the priests.
They had ample means for these purposes, and if they wanted
the priests educated foe the sake of educating their poor, let
them ply for it. When they educated the Roman Catholic
priests, what then were they to do with them ? They must
pay them ; and when they paid them, how could they pay every
other dissenting priest in this country, even down to the merest
" ranter." He had heard in the course of the debate a hun-
dred remarks against, the measure, but he had not
heard one single remark in its favour.—( Hear, hear.)
It was alleged by Hon. Members that there was a great
feeling existing in this country against this measure ; and they
were quite right, for such a feeling was generally entertained.
There was a great dislike exhibited in England against the
Roman Catholic priests, for they made converts wherever they
could. He was trot a bigot—he wished to tolerate every reli-
gion, but he was not an advocate for paying for another reli-
gion when he thought his own the best. He would allow them
to enjoy their own opinions, but he did not like to pay for the
religion of other people out of the Consolidated Fund. He did
not understand how gentlemen on his side of the House, who
formerly voted against religion being paid fur out of the
Consolidated Fund, could now vote for it.—( Hear. )
It was because they were caught in the trap laid
by the Right Hon. Bat onet which had education for its bait.
He would conclude his remarks by repeating what he had al-
ready said, and which he was sorry the Right Hon. Baronet
was not present to hear, that he was a very great friend
to principle and steadiness, and therefore he was bound on all
occasions reasonably to support them; and if the Government
did net act with principle they should go on continually chang-
ing them until they got a Government which would satisfy
the country.
Mr. NEVILLE addressed the Home in a few words, which
were quite inaudible in the gallery, in consequence of the ge-
neral noise. He was understood to support the measure.
Mr. BELLEW said that he would not give his vote in
favour of this measure, as he agreed with other Ho-
nourable Gentlemen in thinking that it was introduced
in order to predispose the minds of the people of Ireland to
other measures, and that it would tend to do away with great
prejudices which had been encouraged in this country. The
people of Ireland were now suffering under the payment of
the Established Church, he thought- that it displayed great
sense on their parts to exhibit such readiness to receive this
grant. It had been said that it was hard giving money to a
Catholic College when there was no endowment to the Pro-
testant Church for education. He could not conceive the
weight of that argument. What was the difference whether
money was given for education, or education was given
whereby those who received it would afterwards gain
a livelihood ? Take Trinity ;College, for instance. A
Catholic could have no advantages in that College. There
were seventy scholarships, twenty-two fellowships, and 40,000/.
exclusively *devoted to the objects of that College, which was
exclusively Protestant. There were 150,000/. a year endow-
ments to Diocesan schools and to Charles the Second's schools.
It was said that there would be no control exercised by the
Government over the College. But it was no matter what the
control might be, the students would receive a Roman Catholic
education nevertheless.—( Cheers.) In other countries there
was a regular arrangement between the Catholic Church and
the State. But this was not admitted to be an endowment it
was only a grant to a College—it was not for a whole clergy,
so that there was no attempt to incorporate them with the
State. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the various
meetings which were held in this country against the grant,
and thought that the language made use of at them
and by several Hon. Members in the House was sufficient to
rouse the indignation of the Irish people. The Hon. Member
for Newcastle, who was remarkable for the strong description
of his language, stated that the priests had no ties to prevent
them from being rebellious; but he forgot that they
had the ties of sickness and sorrow, and that
they had duties to perform which those who had
wives and families would be expected to discharge.—( Hear.)
He could not sit down without thanking those Protestant
Members who had, in direct defiance of the opinion of their
constituencice, supported this measure. No doubt it would lay
them open to the severe censure of their constituents, but the'
would have the consolation of knowing that the course, the
liberal and wise course they had pursued on that occasion was
calculated to lead to the existence of better feelings between
the inhabitants of the two countries

Mr. J. COLLETT wished to know from the Righ,
Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, if the debate on the grant to Maynooth should
terminate this evening, when it was intended to propose
that the Houee should go into Committee on the Bill ?
Sir R. PEEI.—I trust there will be no objection to the
House going into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.—
( Hear, hear.) The debate has now been protracted to a very
long period, and as the Government have oaly two days,
namely, Monday and Friday, for bringing on Government
measures, I do hope that if the debate should close to-night
there will be no objection to the vote being taken on Monday.
( Hear, he-ar.) I beg to assure Hen. Members that no
undue advantage whatever is intended to be taken in any way ;
and, therefore, after the debate closes to-night, I shall
make the motion in form that the House go into Committee on
the Bill on Monday next.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. INGLIS said that the country felt se deeply inte-
rested in this measure that he could not at once, without con-
sulting his friends on that side of the House, give his con-
sent ; and he, therefore, hopedhis Right Hon. Friend would not
ask him to answer the question upon the instant.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, with respect to taking the vote of
money from the Consolidation
_Fuitd, for the purposes of the
Bill, lie supposed that Angst bp involved in the motion of the
Hon. Member for Sheffield. He supposed the consideration
of the Bill in Committee conhl,not take place before some sub-
sequent day—Friday, perhap§.,
Sir PEEL said the Committee which he proposed for
Monday was not -a,. COMMittee on the Bill, but a Committee
of the whole House.for the purpose of taking the sense of the
House on the money vote included in the Bill, and afterwards
the Bill would be referred to the ordinary Committee. The
lion. Member for Sheffield had given notice of a motion for
Monday. He did not complain of the length to
which this debate had been protracted, and he hoped
that considering the discussion which had already taken place,
and the discussion which must necessarily occur in its subse-
quent stages, there would he no objection to their proceeding
with the money vote on Monday.
The presentation of petitions connected with Maynooth was
then proceeded with.
Mr. HINDLEY presented forty-eight petitions against
the Maynooth grant from the following places : From the
parish church at Ashton-under-Lyne, signed by the clergy and
congregation ; from the clergy and congregation of St. Peter's,
Ashton-under-Lyne ; from the Surrey Chapel, signed by
nearly one thousand persons ; from the inhabitants of Ship-
rith, Cambridgeshire; Yate and Pickup Bank, Lancashire;
Mortock, and its Vicinity, Somersetshire ; Waterford, Ire-
land ; Walsingham, Norfolk ; Snoring, Norfolk ; Great
Jotham Protestant Dissenters, Corsbam, Wilts ; Berkeley,
Gloucestershire ; Pembroke Dock ; Swansea, Glamorganshire;
Calton, Norfolk ; Pisgah Chapel, Flint; Lady Huntingdon's
Chapel, Gloucester; Went, Salop; Salem Chapel, Woolwich;
Vernon Chapel, Pentonville ; Salem Chapel, Otley, York ;
Bangor, North Wales ; Barrowden and Morcott, Rutland ;
Cannon-street, Donferline; South Creek, Norfolk; Bap-
tists, Church-stresg Chapel, Blackfriars-road ; Heptenstall,
York ; Wesleyan Methodists, Lostock ; Primitive Methodists,
Baildon, York ; Shipley, York ; Bradford, York ; Helough-
ton, South Raynham, Norfolk ; Staleybridge ; Hyde, Che-
shire; Wesleyan Methodist Association, Warlaggan, Wilts;
Pilperro, Cornwall; Clithero, Probruan, and Caybrennte,
Cornwall ; Tabernacle Chapel, Northwick, Dnloc ; Calvinistic
INTGlaiverbth2ar se
theti Methodists, ,c
Societytill acpnehl,aomoi ,dr
r Der bigh ; Tre v ena, Brecon ; New
-street:r,caßt Shes hotreer ;
ditch ; Free Church,
Teachers of Sun-
day Schools, Harford, Esse:"
Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition from the Synod cf Glasgow and Ayr against the grant to Maynooth.
Petitions against the grant were presented by Mr. Bell,
Taylor, Mr. Parke (from Devon), Mr. Mr. Greenal, Mr. Ha-
milton,
ROEBUCK and Col. Acton.p
resented a petition from some place,
whose name we did not catch, in favour of the measure.
Petitions against the Maynooth grant were presented by Mr.
C. Round, Mr. Plumptre (8), Dr. Bovir,ingifr Sir Easthope,
-;
TlTnes, Mr.
Leicester; Mr. Hastie, from Paisle
funeornbe;
Cripps ; Lord Ebrington, from Plyinoutt
Mr. Bright, from Northumberland; Mr. Blewitt,
ilioa-
mouth ; Mr. Grogan, from Dublin ; Mr. Macauramy,
Edinburgh ; Mr. Darby, Captain Polhill, and Mr. C. Bruce,fro
from Elgin.
Sir C. NAPIER presented a petition from the Protestant
Dissenters meeting at Portland-street Chapel, in favour of the
grant to Maynooth College.
Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Ashley,
Mr. G. Bankes, Mr. Sharman Crawford, and other Hon.
Members.

Captain TAYLOR remarked that, n the course of the de-
bate, it had been said that the opposition to this measure out of
doors was confined to the Dissenters, but lie differed from this
opinion. He knew that the Protestants of both countries
looked upon this measure with anything but indifference. They
thought the measure was quite unnecessary, and complained
that the leaders of their party had basely betrayed them. The
predecessors of the present Government would never have
dared to introduce such a measure, and as he considered it was
fraught with danger to the Protestant interests of the nation,
he felt it to be his bounden duty to oppose it.
Sir FREDERICK TRENCH declared his intention to
give the measure his most unanimous support, notwithstanding
he had presanted several petitions from his own constituency
against it. He could not, however, conceal from himself that
they totally misunderstood the question, and when they came
to read the discussions on the subject, or more minutely to
look into the question, he was satisfied they would see the
expediency of the measure. In Ireland there were upwards of
70,000 Roman Catholics, who existed in a state of ignorance
and bigotry that to him was truly alarming. Their priests
had daily intercourse with them, and it must be evident that,
if that priesthood were better educated than they now are, its
benefits would be extended to their flock.

Mr. COBDEN, who at first spoke in such a low tone of voice
as to be quite inaudible in the gallery, said it would appear that
great apprehension existed in the public mind that the House
was going to endow the Roman Catholics of Ireland, for three-
fourths of the petitions which had been presented to that House
went upon the supposition that they were going to pass a mea-
sure to endow the Roman Catholic priesthood. Now since the
Hon. Member for Birmingham, who had displayed less of his
wonted sagacity on that occasion, had sat down, he had thought
it to be his duty to go and peruse the Bill, and see what it was
they were going to do. He found by the preamble of that Bill
that they were going to amend two Acs which were passed in
the Parliament of Ireland, providing means for the ethication
of persons professing the Roman Catholic religkin. He
looked over this Bill to see if he could find anything which
could in the smallest degree lead to the impression that they
were going to enslow the Roman Catholic religion, and he
could find nothing of the sort. Now if any Hon. Gentle-
man who was in the secrets of the Government. and who
might he better informed than himself on the measure, and
who thus had an adv:.ntage over him, they might put
a different construction upon the measure.—(Hear, bear.)
It was perfectly competent for any Honourable Gen-
tleman to put what ccnstruction he pleased upon it, but,
he confessed it did not appear to him that the consequences o`
this Bill would he the endowment of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. But he thought it was consistent, as far As he was
concerned, to vote for the measure, because, in his opinion, it
was simply aed purely an educational grant. If the Right
Hon. Baronet who was at the heal of the Government would
follow the example of the Hon. Ale.nber for London, and were
to express a desire for his consent to endow the Ronson Catholic
clergy of Ireland, even if both parties in that House were to
unite with him, lie ventured to say the country would
never suffer him to carry such a measure, tier eorda
they hope in their day to endow the Roman Catholic clergy
of Ireland out of the consolidated fund ? The excitement
which existed in the country in consequence of the misappre-
hension which prevailed upon what they were then about to
do, most have convinced the House that he was right in what
he was saying. The grant was simply for educational pur-
poses, and involved no principle.—( Cries of " No, no.")
she Honourable Member for Oxford cheered, and he
presumed ironically, at his assertion that there was
no principle involved in the question, but would the Right
Hon. Gentleman permit him to ask if the government were
to be thrown upon the question, and her Majesty sent for the
Right Hon. Gentleman to ferns another Government, would
not his first measure be to propose a vote of 9,0001. to the
College of Maynooth ?—( Cheers.) If he was right, then what
was it but a question of 17,0001. ? And how would they pre-
sent themselves to the eyes of Europe, who had witnessed the
excitement, if the grant were negatived? Why, it was a per-
secution that was never heard of in the annals of religious his-
tory. Hon. Members were not contending that there should
be no Maynooth. No. Hon Members said there should
be education at Maynooth ; but it should be a defective
education. No, they did not contend that there should be
no College, but :that the College should be like a barrack and
not a public school.—(Cheers.) He did net see that there
was the least necessity for going into discussion as to the merits

MAYNOOTH GRANT.-ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The order of the day was then read. '
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he felt deep regret at being
compelled to separate mself on the present occasion fr9r4

THE SUN, LONDON, SATThRDAY MORNING. APRIL 19, 1845.

of the education provided at IMaynooth, because no one proposrd
to put an end to it. He could see no objection to vote a suns of
money for giving 7 000,000 persons proper religious education.
They had now in Ireland a system of national education, for
which they voted from 70..000/. to 90,0001. a year, to instruct
the children of both Catholics sot Protestants, e they would
not give a good education to those men who are to be the
pastors and religious instructors of those children when they
advanced in years. He had made some inquiries, and
he found the means provided at Maynooth were any
thing but sufficient for giving the students a liberal educa-
tion. Now, surely, if they gave these priests some instruc-
tien in chemistry and natural philosophy it would make them
more acceptable pastors to the farmers and farm-labourers of
Irelind.—( Loud cheers.) Then he could see no possible
objection to the grant, although s cme Honourable Mem-
bers complained of the system of separating the
education of the clergy from that of the laity.
Why this system was not confined to the Roman Catholics
for he believed it was the custom of the Protestant Dissenters
of this country. to educate their young men intended for the
ministry apart from the laity, and for his part he could see no
objection whatever to such an arrangement. Again, it was
objected that this grant was for a peculiar religion of one Feet,
and he begged to remind those who opposed it on that ground,
that they voted last year 55,0001., which by the report of the
Privy Council went to the national schools of England.
Now, a clergyman stands at the head of these na-
tional schools wi h a catechism in his hand, and no
one was allowed to enter the schools who did not learn the
catechism. That 55,000/. came from the consolidated fund ;
and they made large grants to the Universities, from which
the Roman Catholics derived no benefit, and yet they were con-
tending that it was wrong in principle to make these grants. It
was too bad to apply N. principle to their own case, sod refuse
it to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He did not think
that was the place for discussing the theelogical part
of the question ; and he would here remark, that if they had
more logical and less theological questions discussed in that
House, the interests of the nation would be better attended to.
—(Laughter.) But that was the last place for discussing theo-
logical subjects; and a worse body of men could hardly set
themselves up to be a synod for settling theological matters.
He had received many adverse communications from the
country upon this subject, but he had no right to complain of
this ; but still he must support the measure, because he be-
lieved it would not only be acceptable to, but greatly benefit
the Irish people. Indeed he was happy to have an opportunity in
that House to give a vote without violating his principles which
would be acceptable to the Irish people. His first act as a
public man was to publish the evils under which Ireland
had been suffering ; and he could not on that occasion re..
rein from giving a conscientious vote in favour of the measure,
notwithstanding it would be in direct opposition to the re-
monstrance.; of those for whom he entertained a filets respect,
and with whom he had long acted. But he should have the sa-
tisfaction of knowing, that he had given a salutary vote in
favour of a measure which he believed was the first step towards
healing the festering wounds of Ireland.—(Cheers. )
Mr. FERRAND agreed that the question could not be settled
in that House. It would have to be submitted to the country.
They had opposed the great principles which had placed the
Ministers in power, and he would read some of the pledges
which had been given by the Ministerial adherents at the
last general election, and show them in connexion with their
conduct before the House and the country. Was there any
Member of that House who had forgotten that the cry raised
at the last general election was—" The Church in danger."
But, since then, how had they departed from the principles
which they professed before their constituents, and how had
they violated the promises they had given to those
who had sent them to Parliament? He only wished
that the Right Hon. Baronet would again appeal to the coun-
try, and give the people an opportunity of expressing their
,judgment; but on the present occasion he would judge the
Ministers out of their own mouths. The small party called
the Conservative party—'or now it was a small party—felt
that he had misled and betrayed there. He would, as a mem-
ber of that party, appeal to the people of England to call upon
their Sovereign to dissolve that House, in order that
they might have an opportunity of expressing their
sentiments on the proceedings of those whom they
had sent to represent them there. At the lass
general election, her Majesty's Ministers had stated that
they had opposed those who preceded them in the Irish Edu-
cation Bill, because they believed that the effect of its policy
would be to place the whole of the education in the hands of
the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland. A Gentleman, a
Member of the other House of Parliament, on tlie hustings at
Guildford had made this public declaration, that the Members
of her Majesty's Government had entered on office solely in
consequence of their adherence to those principles which they
now seemed to repudiate. —( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen might cry
"hear, hear," but what would be the position they would hold
in that House and the country when he had exposed them.
That Hon. Gentleman had declared that their possession of
power would have this good effect—that by the exclusion of the
Whig,' from power they would at last have the opportunity
of preventing mischief, if they had not the ability to do much
good. They had resisted, and successfully resisted, the wilder
schemes of Radical demolition—he had declared, that if the
Church had to fear the hostility of violence and insidious foes,
he would ask her Majesty's Government where those insidious
foes now where, and he would tell them that it was upon the
Treasury bench, and in the list of her :Majesty's Ministers,
that they would find the insidious foes. of the Church of Eng-
land. They had been told that when the Tithe Commutation
Bill was passed, that it was to promote, through every portion
of the country, harmony and peace in Ireland. What
was said by Lord Lyndhurst ? That it was calcu-
lated to inflict grievous injury, and he qnoted the
words of Lord Melbourne, that it was calculated to give a
heavy blow and great discouragement to Protestantism in that
country. He had praised Dr. Lefroy as an active and zealous
sentinel, but he would ask where was now the honest and
zealous sentinel? What had been the expressions of Lord
Stanley on the hustings at Lancaster? That the cup of their
iniquity was full. The Attorney-General for Ireland, during
the contest at the last election for the University of Dublin,
had declared that the Protestant Church was the grand safe-
guard of the State in Ireland. There the Right Hon.
Gentleman sat, and now, in voting for this Bill,
whether he still thought the same of the value of the
Protestant Church, and whether her Majesty's Ministers hail
now redeemed the pledges which they had given at the last
election. But there was one paper which, at that election, had
been placarded on the walls of every borough and- county
town in England. It was called the Tamworth manifesto;
and he should like to call the attention of the House, and espe-
cially of the First Lord of the Treasury, for that paper showed
that the Right Hon. Baronet had himself adopted the whole of
those measures in effice which When out of office he opposed.
Whatever nilght be the opinions of the Whigs, there was one
thing for which he respected them ; when they professed an
opinion they held to it; and he firmly believed that the Whigs
were upright, honourable, and honest men as compared with
the present Minister. When the First Lord of the Treasury had
addressed his censtituente he had endeavoured t'; support the
principles of Conservatism, and had stated that he feared the
progress of those principles which had originated in the French
Revolution of 1830; but he would tell the Right Honour•
able Gentleman that a great revolution had been effected
by himself, after 1829, in the passing of the Catholic
Emancipation Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He had feared the pre-
valence of those principles, but he (Mr. Ferrand) would
tell the Right Honourable Baronet that greater changes had
been produced in this count by his measures, than any which
had been effected by the rrench Revolution. [he Right
Hon. Baronet had said, that when these changes had been
effected, that it was necessary to raise up a great Conserva-
tive party. That party had been raised, and on it the
Right- Hon. Baronet had come come into power, but where,
he would ask, was their great Conservative party now ?
They hid frir :their great motive of action attachment to the
institutions in Church and State, and it was their object to
maintain those institutions. And whatever might be the
feeling of the Members of that House, he eould assure them
that he, as a Protestant Member for a Protestant constitu-
ency, could tell them, that this Bill was looked upon
with alarm by all the constituencies in the north
of England. The Right * Honourable Baronet had
taunted the Roman Catholic Members of that House
with having fo> ea-ten the pledges which they had given to the
Government, but he ( Mr. Ferrand) would tell the Right Hon.
Baronet that the people of England would taunt him with hav-
ing broken all Isis pledges of attachment to the institutions
the country ; and he could assure him that the whole weight
and respectability of the country was fearfully agitated and
excited by the measure which he had introduced. The Right
Hon. Baronet had stated on coming into power they would
only retain it by continuing. in their favour the confidence of
the people and the weight of public opinion. Where, he would
ask, was the weight of public opinion now? As in 1 etl.3,
not one-twentieth part of the population had expressed even
the slightest desire for the passing of this Bill.—( Hear. )
The Right Hon. Baronet had come in with a majority of 91.
He had filched power from the Noble Lord opposite, and had
professed to walk in the direct path, and in the light of the
British constitution ; but he would beg to say that it was in
the darkness rather than in the light that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet desired to tread. On March 5, 1829, the Right Hon,
Baronet had stated that in bringing in the Bill for Roman
Catholic Emancipation he discarded all consideration of reli-
gious principles, and that it was a
.measure of State
policy—and of State policy only. That his object was to give
an equality of rights to the Roman Catholic population, and
that if he supposed that any measure would result likely to be
injurious to the Established Church, he would be the last man
in the world to propose it. He had stated as one of those in-
juries, the adoption by the Roman Catholic priesthood of the
titles of the Established Church in Ireland, yet in the Charita-
ble Bequests Act of last year, he had expressly acknowledged
the right of members of the Roman Catholic Church to the
titles of archbishops, bishops, and priests, when by the very
enactment he had inflicted a penalty of 1001. on the assump-
tion of any one of these titles. This was the way
in which he redeemed his pledges. He would advise
him to follow the injunction which he had given the other
night to his Hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury, to at
once quit the benches on which he now sat, and to cross the
House, for he charged him with gross and most criminal apos-
tasywot
of,
sLt;:oifrirdbo
the
emt
oEhfael
acted
tsliol
el
inodovtnewho.rneaeNsi
usage,gai principles which had brought him into
power. The people of England felt that there were traitors to
their interest, and if they were not to be found in that House,
there were at least
teneiseottmmwri
etgbi
htntheeoe
interests
before
err:
eitt
tcoeseotahnont
.ehfif themedt
the
Protestantonoewpecaei
onss,unihoyaintfdr typo.hb.of aseats
eLi
nnb,
irtehdb,te Eldon.—
(Great
opinion
betrayed.—
(Hear, greater
interest—greatpt7Ehnre,
'and detestable traitors to the Protestant principles.-1 Hear,
-injuryfilheoaneEroa.or:
,grt
haol
abernri3aehdrl le.
)t
felthßG the best.
el
He
that
H
( Great laughter from the OppositiontohHfaetoLrwdoobrudeElndicEdh,l,etdnaso.knw)e
aNsvh
leave
atel
nothingetnhlaian.
In:dies,
himself,
t hfworth?,feoaronpßdi
nahtihoenthouglit that if authority
greater lawyer than
en-
titled to some weight. The Ministers at last seemed to think
violation aetioofnthought, therefore,
i n
that it was necessary, for they had not hesitated to bring the
intohethtilis
authority was at least inconsistent with good taste, but at any
rate it should not prevent him from exposing the contemptible
a wa whichto sn ee was
ata
apostacy, which was a direct violation of the Act of Settle-
ment, and a contravention of the oath of supremacy—a
complete destruction of the principles which had placed
the royal family on the throne.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
At the last general election the Hon. Member for Lanca-
shire made use of a remarkable expression, when the Hon.
Member for Nottingham had the indecency to introduce
the name of the Queen, where he should not have done. The

expression was, ‘ The Lord defend the Queen from bad ad-

vipers and from the advice of an adverse Ministry," and to
that exclamation most cordially did he say amen Great
laughter.) In conclusion, he begged to say that if the Go•.
vernment could induce her Majesty to attach her signature to
that measure, she would be committing an act equivalent to a
declaration of the instability of the throne.

Here an immense number of Hon. Members stood up, but
Mr. S HEIL having caught the Speaker's eye, he said, Sir,
I think it is extremely unfortunate--it is extremely to be la-
mented that no English Minister can ever confer even a small
benefit upon Ireland, without doing minchief to himself.—
(Hear, hear.) No doubt, Sir, a great deal of excitement has
been created in this matter; but I do think that it is a matter
of a very gratifying nature to the people of Ireland, to have ob-
served that from the commencement of this discussion the
Church of England party, which may be regarded as the safe-
guard of the religious prejudices of this country, have prudentially
abstained from taking any part in the scene this discussion ha•
created ; but from the noble elevation on which it stands has
looked down with cold serenity on this, what I may well call
sectarian affray, leaving entirely to this House the determina-
tion of it amongst those with whom it originated, namely, the
Dissenters.—(Loud cheers.) Those Dissenters whose cause

Irish Catholics were ever foremost to advance, and who lent
their best aid and most strenuous efforts to those same Dissen-
ters when they sought for the ab lition of the Test and Cor-
poration Aets.—(Cheers. ) Yet those very men have
stood apathetically by tpon measures conducive to the
alvencetnent of the interests of Ir sh affairs ; but upon this
occasion, they stand forward, en masse, in great array of fanati
cal insurgency, and in a most determined and un- Christian
spirit, contumaciously oppose this measure.—(Cheers.) I
am not sorry for this ; but I am more than surprised, I am
grieved to think that there also are such strenuous supporter: of
the Free Church of Scotland, and in favour of whom
everyßoman
Catholic hlember in this house has voted. lam grieved, I say,
to find in the Free Church of Scotland such a spirit of de-
termined hostility against those who so enthusiastically advo•
cuted their cause.—( Hear.) But, I sac that this is a question
in which they have no concern ; it. i; one in which they ase
not called upon to come out upon the voluntary principle ; it
has nothing to do with the dogmas; it contains no pretest
against the Regium Donum ; and yet they stand forward in
prominent opposition, while the • Protestant Church starels
neutral.—( Hear, hear) Strange to say, the moment this
measure was propounded this boiler of Calvinistic wrath owe--
flew, d—the moment they saw a Minister of the Crown endee-
vouring to carry out a measure having for its object the ime
provement of the condition of the people of Ireland.—( Hear. )
In speaking upon this question upon a late occasion. I adverted
to the advantages that would be likely to accrue to Ireland from
it. I stated that it would be looked upon as an earnest of the
benevolent intentions of the Government of the country,
and that the minds Of young Irishmen, serving i
their novie t a e
to the Catholic Church, would find in this measure the seeds of
incalcu,able future good, and that in every parish in Ireland
betted
irculeati ado be locate gentleman educated in principles, by the
which his example would be the means of
ensuring the best Possible results.—( Hear, hear.) I will not
now go over those grounds again, but instead of showing the
advantages which would follow the passing of this means e I
will
thendeavour to exhibit the evil consequences that would
be e cettain result of its rejection.—(Cries of " Hear.
hear.") If it he rejected it would lend a great
impetus to the discussion of those from Ashton-under-Lyne,
and otner places.—(Laughter,) And when some Hon. Mem-
bers returns(' to their spiritual constituencies in the north—
( Laughter )—their Calvinistic holinesses will be hailed with
logebrious solemnity, with the most dismal hosannehs in every
direetion.—( Laughter and cheers.) But in Ireland the people
will not csnfine their complaints to expressinns of discontent
at the conduct of the Legislature; they w II return with ten-
fold vigour to their demands for a repeal of the Union with this
country. Let me ask, what will be the result of the reject ion of this
measure in that country, which by courtesy you call " sister"
—( Laughter )—in that country where there are seven millions
of Roman Catholics—in that country where the Ro -ran Ca-
tholics are the great depo:itaries of political power—in that
countr: where the Roman Catholics retain to Parliament two-
thirds of the Members which represent that country in this
House—in that country where the Roman Catholic religion
ereponderates in its municipal corporations—in that country
where the property, landed, funded, and mercantile is preserved
by the Roman Catholics—in that country in which intelligence,
public spi:it, and, determination, and all the other attributes
which constitute a great nation, have been known to exist,
and in that country where the Roman Catholics have made
progress to the highest state of civilisation that is really sur-
prising. What, I say, will be the effect of the rejection of this
measure in that country, already so discontented—a discontent
so dark. so deep, and in my mind so jtist. —( Hear, hear.)
Alas, I fear that the effect of such an annouerensent will be a
renewed demand far the restoration of the Irish Parliament,
and the speculators upon English ruin will then perhaps he
tempted to turn their eyes upon Ireland in a manner to call
for the most serious meditation from Lord Aberdeen.—
( Hear, hear.) There can be no doubt of the fact, that the
rejection of this measure will give the most serious impetus to
the repeal agitation. Not because the people of Ireland set
any value per se upon such a trifling donation as 26.000/, but
because we think a demonstration will be given that the Go.
vernment of the country no longer considers it necessary to act
in compliance with the wishes of the people for the granting of
a measure which has met with the anprobation of both sides of
the flunse.—( Hear, hear ) When the union of Ireland with
England was proposed. it was opposed by some oc
the ablest men in the Irish Parliament, upon the
grounds that Irishmen would have no real representation here—
that her voice would be swamped, and to the English aristocracy
the interests and government of Ireland would be transferred.
That prediction has unhappily been confirmed ; yet I must say
that, though such is the fact,mnch of its bitterness has been
taken away for the dignity of the despot, and has considerably
diminished the baseness of the slave.—( Hear, hear.) If the
conntry is no' to be governed by independent men, but by
Bapti:ts, and Methodists, and Wesleyans, and Independents.
and Meravians, I have no hesitation in saying that the repeal
agitation will be renewed —(" Hear hear," and cheers)—and
then, indeed, will the First Minister of the Crown have to make
the Cabinet subservient to a conventicle.—(Hear, hear. )
And I tell these Dissenters that there will be men found in
Ireland whniswill be prepared to take as bold a course as that
adopted by the Hon. Member for Finsbury until their native
Legislature has been restored, for they never will submit that
the union of England with Ireland is to be maintained at the
expense of ignominy, and that, therefore, they will consider
it much better and more national to perish than submit to such
degradation.—(Loud cheers.) I have told you of the lan-
guage that will be used by others in Ireland, not the language
that shall be used by me.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) An Honourable Member says " Hear, hear," hut
I appeal to the just sense of this country, and to, the just
feeling of all whom I now see around me, whether I have
drawn an exaggerated picture ?—(Hear, hear.) I say, then,
if you pay no regard to the condition of the people—if you
reject this measure—the result will be to give a new impetus
to repeal.—( Hear, hear.) I have spoken with ardour upon
this subject; but if I have suffered my pulse to brat with less
temperance than I should have dune, I am sure you will
pardon me, and admit that I have had just cause
of indignation, and have a stronger right to indulge in language
of this sort than an Englishman should do.—( Hear, bear. )
Will you make no allowance for our feelings when you con-
sider the language that has been used to our religion ?—( Hear.
kear.) I am sure you will, and be willing to excuse me when
von observe my blood boil with indignation at such a course.
I say again that the repeal of the union will he promoted by the
rejection of this measure. Are you prepared to adopt such a
course, when you rec,llect that the first Minister of the Cro rn
has declared in this House, that, at the hazard of civil war,
he would resist the repeal of the union, and that announce-
ment was received with acclamation by this House ?—( Hear.
hear.) Let me, then, ask lion. Members opposite whether
they do not think the grant to Maynonth, mad other analogous
measures, better than civil war ?—( Hear. hear. ) I see the
Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) in his place, and I beg to
ask him what does he think of such an alternative? I know
him to be a gentleman of the greatest benevolence and high-
mindedness, and I have always given him the humble homage
of my praise. But let me ask the Noble Lord, does it net
occur to him that one night of civil war would result in more
misery and devastation than would he committed in a hundred
sear: in all the factories of England ?—( Cheers. ) I know the
Noble Lord will shrink with horror from such a fearful contin-
gency ; should he not then pause before he would recommend
the adoption of that fatal policy which honour and hu-
manity concur in recoiling from ? (Loud cheers. )
Sir, I say, conciliate in time the Catholic clergy of Ireland as
a great intellectual body.._( Cheers.) There are three thou-
sand men—(Cheers):--firm, courageous, and devoted—they
are concentrated in their episcepaey—their influence is diffused,
but it is universal. It is collected, centered, and enthroned in
each individual breast of 8,000,000 of penpte. It has been well
said that the influence of the Catholic priesthood of Ireland
is powerful for gooch—(Hear, and cheers.) lam willing
to admit that the same power might by some
strange perversion ,be turned to evil. I concede to
you that the influence -of the Catholic priesthood in
Ireland has carried many measures ; they have shown 'you
that they could be hurtful as your enemies, but, when recon-
ciled, they have always been your fastest and firmest friends.
I admit that, in 1828; it *as the Roman Catholic priesthood
that carried the electiOn. Of r- large majority of Members
favourable to Catholic Emancipation.—(Cheers.) We all
know that the election for Clare was carried by the same
influence—(Cheers)—and, Sir, I do not hesitate to say that
it is by the influence of the Catholic priesthood that the
Repeal Association has been zustamecl. The requis,tion
for the meeting at Clewed was s'gned by twenty-five.
Catholic priests.—( Loud cheers.) But let Maynooth be
put down to-morrow, a Catholic seminary would be established, I
where the doctrine of passive obedience would be inculcated,
and a more sullen resistance would grow up. Sir, I trust that
we have enough upon the records of history—enough in our
own experience—to show us that the loyalty of the Roman
Catholic priesthood is a pearl- rot to be thrown away.--
( Cheers.) Sir, I ask you to look to the conduct of the Irish
prieithood in Upper Canada.—( Cheers.) Every one of the
Governors, over a range of several years, concurs with his pre-
decessor in bearing testimony to the fidelity and loyalty of the
Roman Catholic priests in that coentry, who were of Irish
origin.—(Cheers.) And why was that? You placed them
in trust with the State—you gave them one-half of the ec-
clesiastical endowment of Canada, and you devoted a portion of
the revenue of the Protestant Church in that colony for the
education of the Roman Catholic priesthood.—( Cheers. )
Now, Sir, if you have the misfortune to go to war with a
country bordering upon your valuable colony, you would find
your account in the virtues, in the loyalty, and the gratitude of
the Irish Roman Catholic priesthood. I ask you, then, why
it is that the influence which you do not disdain to use in
Canada you refuse to exercise with happier results in Ireland?
If you can convert them into your allies as emigrants to
Canada, why will you not make them devoted subjects within
your natural boundary? From leaders of agitation you can
convert them into the agents of peace. From inviting
beacons to your enemies you can convert theta into your bul-
warks, from which you will derive more security, more
defence, than if you planted a cannon on every promontory
in the island. Sir, I regret that this measure was not
brought forward at an earlier period. I hope that this mea-
sure is, as the Right Hon. Baronet has stated, the commence-
ment of a series of measures by which the two countries will
be bound together.—(Cheers ) Sir, I have heard with heartfelt
pleasure the declaration made by the Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite, that he was guilty of err6r.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) I
wish to remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that it has been
said by a Catholic teacher, it is worth while to sin for the sake
of repentance. Sir, I must say that this Bill will be received
with the greatest welcome by the meat body of the people of
Ireland. It has been said that there is some objection to the
measure because it' has been brought forward with a direct
reference to the Sovereign, Ido not think it is meet in this
House to refer to the present feelings of the Sovereign._
(Cheers.) But it is legitimate on my part to say, that in any
policy hich her Majesty's Government may adopt, I, at all
events, cannot help recognising, so far as her Majesty's consti-
tutional influence is exercised, her regard for the wellbeing of
her Irish subjects. Sir, we have heard, and lam pleased to
refer to the occurrence, that her •Majesty expressed her grati-
fication at seeing Mr. O'Connell in his municipal preferment,
and her Majesty instructed Earl de Grey, on his appointment
to the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland, to exert all the power of
his office to conciliate the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Sir,
I was then, and I am now, convinced that the happiness of my
country is one of the objects nearest and dearest to her heart,---
(Cheers.) She will go to Ireland with htr countenance beam-
ing with joy. She will see there her own beauties—her Own
benevolence reflected in every face.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman concluded, in a peroration of imposing
brilliancy, a speech which was delivered so rapidly and in tones
so variable that it was impossible to follow him.
Mr. LAW complained of the introduction of her Majesty's
name in the debate. He did not concur with those who
thought that by this measure they would conci-
liate any religious or political party in Ireland.
This measure should be considered in all its bearings. Its
consequences—its natural consequences-Lahould be fully, fairly,
and impartially discussed. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman, who
appeared to be reading his speech from a document, folded
somewhat in the shape of a lawyer's brief, was here assailed by
loud cries of " Order, order," and " Read, read.") If it were
not the pleasure of the House to hear him, he would at once sit
down. Let the Hon. Member who so often cried out " Read,
read," and thus interrupted the speaker, stand up and deliver
his sentiments. That was the proper course. It was only in
conformity with the rules of decency and courtesy—
(Hear, hear)—that an Hon. Member should be allowed
to deliver his sentiments as long as he did so without
hurting the feeling of any Hon. Member, and was not trans-
gressing the rules of the House. He was only discharging
what be considered to be his bounden duty—a dut Which he owed to the constituents who had suffered him to represent them in that House. He knew not why he shuuld receive such
treatment--there was nothing in the manner. in which he had
expressed his sentiments, nothing disrespectful to the Members
of the Government—nothing hurtful to the feelings of any one

SIT
under'tsc;
—nothing of excitement or anger. He repeated he n's
fairly expressing his op:1-nins ; and he cculd not
the ten;
what right Han. Members had to put him down by
etter an.
less clamour raised on this occasion.- ( at Istt` to qua
cries of " Hear, Hear.") If they would permit bun
0,41 e.
his opinions, he neAdd put them in as few words as
at ,he
He did not deny that he occasi nally glanced his e;.e.,1 hero
paper he held in band.—( Great laughter.) He '"nd had
accustomed to put down the heads of his discourse, a These
done to on the present occasion
interruptions had I sngthened beyond measure the obsew ;!_rt,
which, had he been allowed to 'proceed, he would n- harirtle,
concluded.—( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear.") H
cta refs
objection whatever to his Roman Catholic fellovinsubte
_cot
—(Renewed ieeghter.
sessing equality of civil rights and privileges,
to the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, or to (le
Con any strp leading thereto, was a very different thin!•be ens
would as shortly as possible state the eb:ections .B
_ again
tertained to ibis measure.— The Right Hon. Gentlentsitijo his
anea,ed to be reading the document which he held To
hand, and was again assailed by loud cries of " Rea_ To be
and " Order, order." After a pause, he nreceedeJ)catho,,c
but to rssanc.
sore the question of the endowment of the Roman the Fr
Church had elicited an avowal from the 'Chancellor of
_.ebt
chequer, to the effect that if ever this matter was bly"
rit f°
jti
under their consideration, he for one world never cons° h. /be
being endowed by the revenues of the P otestant Cbuerceneoe
Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the
ment v.-ea net involved '
sod the 13ill before the House. trill to
Mr II F_ITT rose to er. He believed it rag cnenuk; feta
the standing enter of the House that any Member should
question of
his speeches.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. LAW wished to know by what right the Iben'toate:
tlernan presumed to say, at that distance from the el
which he stood, that he was reading his sp eceeches.—VsaL„ebeS,
The Hon. Member asserted that he was reading his 're-ebair-
and had called upon the Right Hon. Gentleman in
reading bit
to oblige him to desist. He denied that be was r`abnivel;
speeches, and the interruption was worthy of the cauatic tbe
the Hon. Gentleman advneated. The only difference weal
statement which he should be enabled to lay before then:eels.
he, that for want of this document he was in d•nger ot
t; aral
ing his arguments, which he had arranged under seParatoual,
distinct heads. It was an ungenerous interruption, °seise d
contrary to the practice of Parliament, and to the Praeler 9
Gentlemen.--( Cries of " Hear, hear," and r, Order, °der that
Mr. OSBORNE rose to order. It was contrary tor" wary
any Hon. Member shoald tell another that he acted Ct)
bra ear
to the psactiee of a gentlernan.—( Loud cries of " gear, "
The SPEAKER thought the Hon. Member did not
Lottd :tilleegsoof•
the la:cute. in an offensive sense.
Mr. LAW thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for tle°lr!'
obliging and just interpretation of what he had said, an
e, the
pectation in which from the bottom of his heart he believed the
Hon. Gentleman wh interrupted him was convinced
truth of, beim. he made the interruption.—(
" Order, order," " No, no.") The Right Hon. Geneesea it
tank up the document again and appeared to he reading ticas:
amid renewed laughter.) He must appeal to the Right tease
Gentleman whether he was to be the only person that Pow,
who was not at liberty to arrange the heads of his argn° fairly
(Great laughter)—so that he might lay
before the House. I f the object was to prevent him from Putt
it ceechne, it would be successful only to this ess'ent, that tch be
"
prevent him from mentioning most of those points titer,)
rested his resistance to this measure.—( Renewed langit was
his sentimeots
.nrits
This debate ought to be co-ducted as it had been. _oho,
very hard that he should not be permitted to reprellentatioc:
feelings of hiss constituents, who were not inferior in ;it, hsti,
character, or ability, to those who interrupted him. robe'
heard the solitary disclaimer of the Chancellor of the 'rode
quer.—( Here the Right Hon. Gentleman appeared t° bee sett
ing from the same paper, and the cries of Order be'
" Read " were renewed.) Well, if he had no other claims s, •
would throw himself upon the indulgence of the 11(,)a 'wish
.e,
( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He repeated that his 01'1 JO
was to perform his duty to those who sent It.tt. se
the profession to which he belonged, be had 75 of
much in the habit of making notes of the bessorl,
his argument, • that he could not trust to had
for the arra.ngements of those points —( Laughter.) f tbose
been in the course ns' stating that the treearent coyness 0 bad
who had spoken of the endowment of the Catholic ciergnYf the
induced him to enter more fully into the consideration eilht
question. He did not find that the suggestion
Hon. Gentleman met with any discouragement from ther ewe
Hon. Baronet; nor was it upon, any sudden thought %eyes'
tion that the Right Hon. Gentleman exchanged f"tttlros the
with the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State does"
Home Department. The Right Hon. and Learned Ge,n",tion
had- clearly stated what was the nature of the nee)
required for the Roman Catholic clergy, and he 0"', less
was aware that he could point to the authority of the age
illustrious statesman than Edmund Burke, of the iirtigh„
a, to the
cessity of seclusion for those who were intended for a the
Roman Catholic Priesthood • but he did not think that wained
best mode of educating those who were to Eve in 3 rd be
society of Protestants and Roman Catholics. It go! eeett
recollected that there was a second Catholic question. andsa
a snore important one than the first. The first %Tat
Catholic measure only removed civil disabilities, and the the
Hon. Hon. Baronet drew a broad line of distinction betwef,son
removal of civil disabilities ard the establishment of the It: of-
Catholic Church. Now; he maintained the he
r
resent tneaaa:tholie
but the initiative of the establishment of the Roman etnan
Church.—( Hear, hear.) This was the most important R
Catholic question they had ever been called on to coneitdetr' had
he for one was not surprised that, when the alarm of bad
spread throughout the country, the different censtitrienenots
instructed their representatives to give it the strongest "ge Of „ •
Lion, and sent in petitions against it which made the
that House groan. He should not be surprised if then
tion of this measure should east England, and Scotian
a part of Ireland into an agitation of as many years' "Fella
and as violent, as that which accompanied the measure
removal of the civil disabilities of the Roman Cathobl"ering
(Hear.) He ventured to warn the House from en, not
into a course, the evils of which it would be difficult. 'oe a
irrinossible, to overstate.—( Hear, hear.) It was 00t nieteso
question of whether the Right Hon, and Learned Ger% that
opposite ( Mr. Shell) was to have a distinguished Place' twee
House—whether he was to take part in considering
questions which came before Parliament, together r"`„tion
Protestant fellow-countrymen. It was a far different tin'-,ito-
-the question whether the Protestant religion shim's! hea-e 58
_ether subverted—(Oh„ oh.) 't he question before the
tube
and country was simply this, whether the title upon which
Crown of England had been heretofore founded—(Hear)e-e'e.
ther the Act of Settlement should be adeael letter on thestatutct
book—whether the article of the union . the fundamental artirit o
that measure, should he utterly rendered null—the Onettd,
was, whether that question should be infringed and sabverte
—( '' Hear, bear,' and " Oh, oh.") Were they so inucif
wiser than their ancestors, that they should go bank not °Pr;
'o the revolution, but even to the reformation, for the Vis'ia
pose of subverting them ? And what were they to do
for? To support a Roman Catholic priesthood who Ina eho
market of sedition—( " Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh")nre
e,
stimulated to acts of sedition the excitable people of Its
—(" Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear.") And from w the
funds were the means to be supplied ? From the
taxes of the country, or it may be from een,
revenues of the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. Let to,
recollect that the next motion which they would have it"meer
cuss would be this very qatstion, on which the Hon- N'l%-
the
for Sheffield had a motion. Before he went on to disegs,t on
other portions of this question—(oh, oh )—before he ken to
to discuss the other portions of the question, he would per' or
assure the Houses that in' anything that fell from him' his
anything that should fall from bins, it was not, soy
intention to say anything hurtful to the feelings °L,
one in that House or out of it. On the contrary, he dee'e.oe,
ge
with a sincerity which no person had a right to clisPr
that he respected as much as any man the opinions of ti
rinbt
who differed from ham upon religiotia subjects. He the" 1
that the removal' of the Roman Catholic disabilities rtaelf
measure for which the Roman Catholics ought to be det:ree s
gruteful to, the .Right Hon. Baronet. But this was a di§,telltt ..
and separge,guestion altogether, for •it was the making h.
oman Catholic Church coordinate with the Protestant
If he was trespassing on the House—as he was canoeist co
was—(Cheers and laughter)—he must again throw himself -
the indulgence of the House. —( Laughter. ) He belie-the
that her Majesty's Government had not duly considered
important coosequences which were invo!sesl in the intso";
tion of this measure. The Right. Hon. Gentleman the 31° at
her for Edinburgh bad accused the Right Hon. Gentlemo
the head of the Government with having introduced a mteead •
sure not based on the previous principles which he had adOP
when in Opposition, and yet the Right Hon. Gentleme3-
the Mernber for 'Edinburgh said that there was„es" t 4
difference in principle between an annual and a perrnanile •
grant. The two assertions were totally irreconcileable.
would read an extract from an address published in a sew
..paper.—(:!ere the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen was intec,
rupted by shouts of " Read, read," and great confusion tr""'ne
continued for some time, indeed, throughout the whole
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech.) He then cafe,ia
to the speech of the 'Right Hon.' Secretary for the Home
partment.—(Laughter, and confusion.'s He had attentive;
listened to al that had fallen from that Right Hon. Gentlei
man, and he derivesl as all who heard him must have derit's
the highest satisfaction in the exercise of those laTenhts
with which the Right Hon. Gentleman was blessed.—(Laug-
ter, cheers, and much confusion.) W.! (Mr. Law) had bee°
about to read art extract from an address of the' Right 1400'
Gentleman, but it seemed that the House would not allow
—( Cheers and laughter,) His Right Hon. Friend near hi°
(Mr. Law) filled an important position in the Conserv:ail
patty, when that party was in Opposition ; and he did n°,
think that the Right Hon. Baronet had treated that Wt.,
Hon. and Learned '
Gentleman in a very graceful manner. e
(Mr. Law) had been unable to make clear the various polo--
of his address, in consequence of the continued interruptionts. •
with which he had been met.—(Cheers, laughter, and mach'
confusion.) He would, therefore, most cordially support tne
proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member from Nesvcastle'
that that Bill be read that day six months—that it be laid
on the table, and merged under the petitions
,°
the people that it be entwined and folded 't!
the embrace of its twin-brother, the Jewish Disabilities gill
,'
and then that it may,, if they desire it, be revived and recut
listed by the fostering care of its real parents and guardians tn:
;
Whigs, the Gentlemen opposite. They alone could, trith°°- •
any conscientious scruples, engraft this measure on a Proter -
tent Constitution. Theirs the merit, if merit there were'
theirs the peril of discomfiture, and the ignominy of defeat.---
(The Hon. and Learned Member sat down, amid great coda'
sion in all parts of the House.)
Mr. T. DUNCO MBE was aware that it was the wi"" °f
the House that this debate should be brought as speedilY fi;
possible to a close, add he could assure them that he sraul
not occupy their tine to the same extent that the Hon. and
Learned Member the Recorder of London had done. 1-•°".
ing at the tone and temper of this debate, considering that,
there had been no offence to the religious opinions of any 01°./r
be that man who he might, he could not help now rising t°
express his regret at the speech which the House had heard"`
that night from the Hop. and Learned Member for Dungars'l
(Mr. Shed ). He coultit not help thinking that that Hun. and
Learned Member had done a great act of injustice to the
Protestant Dissenters of thin country. If any one had,
proposed that 'the Roman Catholics of Ireland shoo!"
have been handed over to the free denominations of pro:
testants, instead of to the aristocracy of England—if any 00`
had proposed to hand the government of Ireland over to thesefree denominations, then indeed the Right Hon. and Learness,
Gentleman might have cause for the expression. he had oe'
against them. But he had done a great injustice, and he (Mr'
Duncombe) only wished that he could have procured for bi-ots
look at a petition which had been presented by himself ( fire-
Duneombe) in an early part ef. that evening. It ha •
proceeded from a deputation of' tree Protestants frotOi
" „
a district of twelve miles around London. And ‘1"--
was the language in that petition ? Their language was
that they objected to the revenues of the Slate being aPP,r°,i
priated to any eceleciastical party whatever. They otrecie-
sie the broad ground that they could sanction no endowment.
The prayer of the petitioners stated that tbeer
had acted conscientiously, and from a conviction of what
they considered right. They stated that they felt no animos'i
towards their Roman Catholic fellow subjects with whom they
sympathised in the oppressfoo, the miseries and wrongs A
t 9
which they were subjected; and, therefore, he trs"7
the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ';ltni
a great injustice towards the Dissenters when
-
s:
he said they sislwere7f a set of fanatical insurg tots.-
(Cheers.) The Dissenters of England had acted contistenlY
on this occasion, fey in 1834, when Lord Althorr no, Lb°
meant Lord Grey—tried to bring in a Bill to prey chilrY"‘
rates out of th; Consolidated Fund, the same party came lljr-
ward and stated, on exactly the same grounds, eneir opposition
to that measure, and with such success that the Whig Gove.ol;
merit considered It prudent to withdraw thq Bill, because ""

~,

tessenters %%rift] not tolerate the principla
Church c t of is ink an, ' reverowe.of
.three of thhe prelates cf that Established Church•
e__, o u i•f the fixed revenue of the eeuntry. 'Their cen- Well, Sir, is not t. st a ease in wh ch any measure
duct n that (roes' tn wes in perfect coniesteney with their
,''-t on this It , , ' -.
, , . te,„ or test people—any ineasere that yen can F:opt
etuar seet • ' '• -as i"e P23rie'' '°' a l'''''''' •-
e ' vie:' t - • toristitution is it not at. least
rn.as_orere thiev were pprfeetly eitietu• nay •nee .o your e ; ., .
therefore Cut of the reveries of the e were attil
con intent when orpos•••••0, that win thy of \ our consideration ; arid is it not one which you
,Le u . 11e hoped that while they lived they wmill continue The r iniens of the
should hesitate much befere you reject? p
1..
~
it,opposition, and be ultimately suCces,ful, but now be wished people of Ireland. as far as I can collect them on this su vet,
eertilitt one or two questions to the House curl to her Majesty's appear to me to be that they are ready to receive yeur grant
questions,
re
•se was not fining to put Mellish-lye or impertinent with gratitude. It w uld be the means of conciliating the
eons, such as had been put 10, the Nen. lesiemher for t !Teeth is: of that people. It does net trench on the revenue
to north__,arnt•tonshire (Mr. Staffor io' ti,rien ). Ile weg net a oinc of the Pr, testant Church, as co doubt the enajoi sty of this
w0:1-Zhif the Noble Lord had brought in a Rill whether the's- House would proneunee against. hreakirtig in en those rove-
'vs nelsosed it 1-1 ill 1, 1.-. • h had For the seirpose of a Catholic estate ishme . . ..et It (toes not
tsken 1).3 _ - • e wo(not as • w ,eiht it. if ee Hues,, i
that , 1 Bill to the hustings, he eeuld have been there : nffen'' '3' Roman Catholic religious feelings of the clergy,
rea,..._naY to tell the tale, and for the hest of ell i It is not like an endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy, in
ets
onr "a as his Horiourable and Learned Fried th
e which there would be great difficulty in the first instance.
t 0 ee er would tell the TIHon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, who is,
cri_ • House, that no man was bound le" my
I,se inmate himself, but he would tests this question— Were • strange to sav, an ally of my Hon. Friend the Member. for the
mouse—were
numberless petitions which had been presented to this • University , f Oxford on this subjeet.—my Hon. Friend the
o_utn,"!---were they to be treated as so much waste paper?
, Member fir Rnsbury sass, that the Protestant Dissynters are
,`-':eillnd they name one instance where so much interest had : ready to ngree that there sheauld be no endowment—that there
sovecew:i?need,
, or so Many memorials presented, on any one i should he no State Church—that the voluntary principle
petiliot • vid they suppose that to be an answer tothose should prevail, as well with regard to
:episcopal establishments
u__
seners when i
ii they told them that certain persons in that as with regard to the Roman Catholic Church. Now, Sir,
iZta were inconsistent, becau=e they had already voted for this appears highly liberal—it appears to be doing justice to the
Ajaysnorne small sum—the same annual vote for thesuort of people of Ireland, according to what many of their organs con-
they :th—and that that Would be an answer to them w' en shier to be justice, but in paint of fact it is no concession
c ty.,_gt-enniplained that their present vote was to endow that whatever, it no practical use can be shade of it.—(Hear,
Would ,
el• r ever? How miste the Right Hon. Baronet Ip•ar.) L t us 10. kto what must be the feelings of the
paint.'. 01, when that should be epeessed a= an answer on this people of Ireland—if you go bandying, from one side
Alernber h"
were told the other evening In the Noble Lord the to the other this question, without ever coming to a practical
this e for the City of London, that- he only considered measure of this tort. Supposing we were to say—s Oppose ma
11,7:en:sure acceptable, because it was the precursor to other Hon. Friend were to say—let us abolish entirely the Established
....evamva: for the benefit of theßons an Catholic clerey of Ireland. Church of Ireland ; let everything be voluntary—let us adept
Hee. eie'taheear• ) The same thing hail been stater' by the the.. same great high-sounding princieles—let every man ply
any °f the 6h•for Newark, it could not be contrs&eted by 1 . h
t e religion which he professes, and let so man hate a con-
be sure
th e ;net Ministers that had at. present. spoken To scientious burden, by plying the minister of the religion from
!neat had e Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home Depart. which he dissents. Why. everybody knows that the great ma- •
tbst scee t told them that the Roman Catholic elerey would jori. yof this House would place a negative on such a proposi-
ereet it, Ph anY pension from the State, and if they would not tion ; and I might say, supposing there was a dissolution of
that if t.: whald not offer to pro,ose it but he did net say this House to-morrow, or at any other time, that those who
be woo. ;' - Roman Catholic clergy were inclined to receive it, oppose Maynotth would not come here f r the nurpo=s of en-
tea_ _th not beforeine the voluetary principle—yeu would still find a great
els" that he w prepared.
toffer • e itteseers) ff.
0 in—, o - ern- reso,it against
mber_ • as surprised at the eretiturte that some Web j. . y any demand you might make for . the
14 s expressed for this miserable and paltry grant. He abolition of the State Church. Even th ugh the Ministry
d.Ys underste '
4lnelined t ' od that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were came forward arid said. " Let us make some endowment for a
State, but 0 become the lackeys, the slavish sycephants of a small portion of the clergy." Then, supposing my Hen. Friend
the .47 now thee
s• were ready to prostrate themselves before and those who. think with him were to sneeeed, let the
liP h'eforentaimage which the Right Hon. Baronet was sett-in' ' voluntary principle prevail—let there he no State endowment
n.f)ty tent•--(Cheers, and 'cries rf " N is ") - They of religion—let every man provide a religion for himself—this
4f th—Y no, and the Irish :)
1 n.
n • State endowment would be reieeted with scorn and contempt
„.r ey were so
:cpeop.e
thismay say no:.
,by the House. But in the meantime what would be the con-
gratised fo- . boon, If
et": 11 hearts w ditioe of the people of Ireland? Why if they found one party
'ltt he,
a,.. were overfl awing with gratitude—why
near tee t come there and tell them ? Why dirt they i
h I '''Y tar. refusing to break in on the Established Church. and another
'4l ofese ve so grateful only from those Gentlemen who . party ehselutely refusing any sort, of endowment, what is their
iayi.az
into uteder the Whigs, and who seemed only to be condttion ?
,They would r.tol that only a small minority of the
It leisterial bee he hands of the Tories ? —(Lond cheer. from the people of Ireiand are cared for by :he Legislature of this coun-
Z°at frpta Hops ches• ) He wished to hear from the Irish people. try; they would find that England and Scotland were opposed
ad tell the Paner reports; hut, let them come to England, to the. r se ishes—that vi bother it be in the shape
hushed
e,etvrnlthat their boon has been received with gratis of an endowment. or whether. In the shape of
.a
e.'-'
HP
reland was to be grateful, and repeal was to he vo!t:iriry principle, that which is henefietal to Ireland is
licher% Did had another question with reegard to the peti- toe, eted—they would not consider the different parties, but
Ph Pe
of Ent" theY suppese that they could answer to the they would say every proposition for our benefit is rejected be
2.4yerg ojgand by telling them they would refuse the the House of Commons, representing Great Britain. .
.Sir, if,
would h ' 'ne;r petit-rim, because- that •• .'
this that is the ease, I say this proposed remedy of the ahnlition of
Bill
Mini are th _ , the revocation of
principle
all State eeurcees and the adontion of the voluntary pr. • e
tb stero is enect of discontinuisg them as her Majesty's
~ , • , ' . ••, - ' • of
rae Peapie of p d they suppose that that answer would satisfy is tetady iltuso-y. It is de e.., - 7 and defrauding the people
tee° neposee "figland? Whatever the Right Hon. Gentle- Ireland. It is to aav, we e ete tt give you that endowment,
,p,4t thaa• - m 437 flatter Lat we will abolish all Stan churches. Sir, Ido not agree
44e -.1 would b er themselves, he could assure them ,
siih whatwas said
in
ta he
_ant e deceived.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
rcon
hat w eel to know Dune
ea , with respect to the Protestant Dissenters
at e ."te est what was to be done
whom,
air!' e with , ith the petitions? Were they to be of. this country. 1 think they are men to
t,'re he wont ,nnteMgt and as so mush waste If the • with regard to all questions of civil liberty, this
th he , (sten th H
3 country is deeply indebted. Ido believe, when questions of
k_ were no, e owe to look about it • thought that
"Mead tawherised t • , '.he . equality in p tint of civil privileges were under consideration
peso --they we 0 play these creaks with the prolle of
that
wishes that.
of of En , re not sufficiently respected erioneh by the '
at they were more forward than any men in their
all th „gland to do ' '• ' - • their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects should be planed in that
'nett e r arlia so.—( Cheers. ) He would state that
iie_e _se inte__ tnents that ever sat, there never was a Parlia- equality. They have taken this coiestitn of State endowments
tronta-
tea' tt that if
t": "'Y hated and despised.— (Cheers. ) He be- strongly in their minds, and they have likewise thefaith.
and
k*Pline (if
Eng!: res''``'Pr''''' in tn,„,,,,e, +1 ,• e est religious fee:Legs in favour of the Protestant . d
t. tee.liass r•I the
religion. But, at the same time,
than thell"'
e Clentlehtne" would rue the clay. He knew that the alg!enst dle Roman Catholic
o' is further considered by
tern , y uelieyed th en opposite did not believe it any more 1
h, o.believe that when this quesoion the
resection of Bills like
4 " heart' • at the when they see the result f...
the , if
the people of England would not break ' el°,
I eland
epee Y Persever d y were to go out of office —(Chsers ) tills, •
which would beconsidered as an injustme towards r •
ears, ait th e owever. in their insults the * *
at th 'stye y traydepend they will feel that it is necessary in some shape or other to
it:spe,eta, e trn walls would come endeavour to remedy the gri.-vanees of that country.
le f‘ ie was teed that this rattling about their
For my part, I cannot see without alarm and without pain the
, e
.. rel„d_b
... .is measure would conciliste ti -e , petitions that have been
%Rh-hilt , e old not think that would t nil declarations which are made in the.
the religious
beth at the and,
(the Irish) it
laid on the table of this House, with respect to
would only
es e end nr rn, and despise them, part of this question.
a 9 six - ,t, and and that would
Established Church, and by
sode Months
~ 1 they would be exactly as they w that sented by the ministers of the
were there
govt Prehea's.".n.ess they came forward and had. - the Protestant Dissenters, without deeply regretting
some great
telct
n_ Ise lan, whereby Ireland shauld be so strong a feeling, and I should say, sech un-
be! fro, thn, Pincifiles of Proiestantism.wasHnee longer to be
just prejudices respecting the Roman Catholic religion.—
't,treent th.._ght Hon. Baronet the Secretary fowatsh glad to
(Loud tries of " Hear, hear.") I say so because at the time
thelet then_ e(eathere was to be a religious equalit ri
f "'me when that measure. called Roman Cathel.c Emanci-
thelnet
wholethe'utr what that equality was to he y nwhrelahnnelti ation of Par-
pation, was brought under the consider
same
teal th la, plan of the Government? Hei Y lament, the same statements were made.
theC
1
thopereleat Je,"Pnti. the table of the House theirwould ask
charges acainst the Roman Catholic religion. Roman. at tod-
iree;444o,trznoeatirie in Ireland. They ought, lpan for
lies were designated idolators, followers of Anti-Christ,
to
,_,d vronee be bills, in order that those G tlal'°' t(!). "e
ether such degrading apperations, which I shall not fatigue
the 'net they "Judges e Gentlemen from
I.' eY Oro • a
whether the Gov he House by repeating. The question of the Roman Cathod-
eae irst e.. names,. The Right ernment would act up
lie Relief Bill came before the House of Lords. I have looked
h e n !mister of h - Honourable Baronet
e e Salted the tee Crown told them that i•• • the, ugh the speeches spoken by our prelates on that occasion.
the wanted - they the
ecclesiastical authorities both for and against the measure, and I cannot see inse
..
. seclee •t° know,
14nted curtest author' i whether heilad in
enlr:ulalnt:l.
d speeches any enceuragement of the Pl'raf"l.onsdeon u and
Mons,
.t..? know whether htel: in
England—( le r 1 eanr) he The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishopdo.
Opposition,'
time
4:. -Lords, and what had consulted th •ah'A ;' • the Archbishop of York, although place in
e aut oritiesfin the fth Roman
teed t ie.(' w" given to were. their G • • (Ca political grounds, in discussing the
admittedßoman that the
iia good of the en,selves for the -•' when they were de-
Catholic Church was a part of the Christian Church, and the
oee'rY, of tePecP'et If Char] Pas'lng, of certain laws for
other • h bishops used s similar language.—(l-rear, hear.) I find
Isea'iun—if n' were to es James, of London, and
hsh B" h Liandaff es ecially observed of Roman eld • hety were , absent themselves on chi- eis
chef • . .
..
11
• h • lief Chris-
tete Rive then; •' he whuld h
Catholic Chu—that if it did not contain t e spiri
lierre he fro additional. re c very glad, because it
tianity, where was the authority of the ministers of the
°Pee n(101 their Puglia axons for rdieving them on n
Church of England? Were I of opinion that it was other-
ai sit h 5 much , e minio,s u oct '.l Ii
itol llt wise it but
()would' ive Me the greatest pain to think myself coin.
bitter
Hottli.tl3saeraioa
_,_
win reth'aitsetences of Maynooth would he e
tiweillee'd as a Protgestant to hold such language and entertain
h nly reminiscences to the
such ;belief of so large a portion of my fellow-subject!. But,
PeriserseePreaels, _,t would be found in th recollection of the • '
eed en to bye. ~. or certain friendwhosee confidence he an •this• - t the
Sir, I regi•et to sty that the intolerance on su,stec,, _
ee.
ttsosaltine'at st, aed in the
remembrance s
feelings which have come down to us from the l'!e-
Kew whoage uPPort affordedof that degrading e
form ition do, I fear, still exist both on the one side
* led lh nfii les h to him by those political oppo-
and the other.—(Hear, hear.) When
.I read among
; tll,lk at he s„ , e had usurped. --(Cheers.) He had
'4)l rseeP his e".,"'d not occupy the House long, and he the charges against Maynooth certain doctrines and dogmas
thas: -,bee an:l'veA.' ; but ind d l' f
'chargesof cherished and retained by that Church seemingly so repulsive ;
he sh *llO has rs-IgntrY that ha edPbc ene ne nut et
those
st
and when I see on the other side the bitter feelings of hostility
4tsiiriti vote
asoted this 13;11—in thenliaucse of alrtelmese threat manifested against the Roman Catholic: Church by those of
totaled bsforea he began, and oppose this 13i11 as long as It another persuasion, I cannot but feel that the spirit
.wbich ex-
of i.•/' Rlis.,t.,,.her House _(Che?rs.) isted in so fierce a shape at the time of the Reformation, should
jekt---0,411'e, et, Os
Hon
lam ready te address the House, not a' this time be seftened and abated.—(Lourl cries of " Hear,
;Idos - re. vnY Hon. Friend who has just sat deo n has hear.") I perceive that the feelings engendered by the reli-
espeet the tabiPeot to the numerous petit iens which have been uious war which then tookace remain more durable they those
'tse eotothehe of this House on this subject, as well as out re originated by any civil wars,bat I have ever read or rd of.
t'sea,a"tStitae-tutierous letters which I have received from my ,Ve all remember that beautiful passage of Virgil, where he
*Quotere---( hints and others in relation to this important tlescribes that, in some future time, the husbandman, in turning
4 / etntldear, hear.) Had it ' t been for these conside up the fields upon which the civil wars took place, would there
lifter vote
in fay been been w 'lndcontented. to have given a find spears and helmets covered with rust, the almost
`'a th`le -vnitr of the e'
t of this Fig ; ba, only remnants of forgotten battles. But I think the weapons
te e numeree
.second reading
f wh• ah!e us petitions which have been lais . .
h 11. h ' 1 t• i d h • f h f
; wet wlc rive par les contem e at t e time o t ere
to, lest , of th;
t non will never be allowel to rust, but they will be brouight
h lit is House—after the various le ••
tattilYself •ers oh. "(I received f onstituents and forward by those debating these questions bright and burnished,
Perti ' 41 d Jectin'' to th' mY
e • '• ' and whenever fie
that excited religious differences in
Ili_ eft th, o tm,
__!= . is measure, I cannot entirely satists
whichthat is at all touched,these old
cord
will
spears, worn hel-
i .0 wit,. is Inea on this occasion express my reasons for sup
' age 4 tk,se stire_
!nets. flags and banners, will he brought forward, and all the
(Hear hear.) I concur- so far in opi-
IP: ert.tekin of who are opposed to me,as to consider that this aeiiriosity of the loth century revived. A will has been ex-
esist 'at r the verY hihest •m hear)— pressed that all parties would et unite
.in the same creed,
ill, bers as haesi'eet I (10 not en't i plor ac,nce—
ith such of the and that the country would no linger be distracted with relt-
the ielealtSe, e:e.sPoken in favour orfetYhaerec
e eonwd reading of this gious dissensions. Suppose that could be tha case—one in which
baesref,aneelft,•; it appears to me the Right Hon. Gentleman ail contending parties could unite. An attempt of this sort
ijight-tr an edd.,?! the Exchequ'er appeared to. consider it has been made in. Spain, in which country l l•haveregided for
Pert:en. Qen't`iinn of 17,000/. to the' previous grant, and the some time, and witnessed the +.s., afu erisb which'
such a
ofw,ttleet nt_seemeeernan the Secretary of State for the Hom, 'tate of things was accumpleit. It was impossibleo countryina
q '19,4 Of Ai nto consider that the question of the en• ake this that anything like
,a.l. unity f doctrine, and a
entl I eYnoeth had been settled b the Act oneness of Church could be established. But
.those who hold
et sets), carat, _ y
• . t ougly differ from us in
ttli:;: atlit;.:'-( Hear agree
with either of those Right H•in. different opinices from us, who conscien , _
their own opinions—we can give
twate t ~, leo of I,„ • hear. ) If it were merely a question religious matters can hold . .
h ther Catholics or Pro-
-1 "he °°°l' t° the •• el tth t uestion credit to them
Whetherd Chriatians, w e
''rdies'(l.4„ vs bee • - origin, gran , aq -
.• _
of the Church of England or the Church
else ''Y as e, he n raised upor, the miscellaneous esti- vretestants.
ith a view to the
l'h ane hear)—anti h b in the of Scotland, we may at least discuss subjects w
.t.
tie ere aer, a aye been proposed
kilt Wo 1 3 the repairs of barracks at Portsmouth or general benefit and welfare of the country withoutv
dexci
amonging
4'l •he 14 h
No' ding, 'le beer, ave been proposed.—( Hear, hear.) I those animosities, which still, unfortunately,
thatPlrecaannot con: tet-",bee a:eta not- stated, that the present extent of the the people. In saying this I must remark _
f the eo le. or
th•gal granttueee,fß there were not a sufficient
(hetsen to accede to the prayers of the petttions o
that we would
sett the Was 'in the establishment and that an addi subject. I think that if we were to say.
t ral
0 olara re
et necessary to maintain 'agreater number— not support a Church which we considered anti•ecrip u , the
'ili for '; and atl, not sufficient accommodation for the effects would be pernicious in the extreme. In the first place,
haste wennereasit7lus a case might have been made the effects would be enormous. We must gete_e beyond
ede epet" bevel! the vote by g 1 7,ooJl.—(Hear hear.) this question. —(Cries of et Hear, hear."). W
W must
Vied this 4teraYs opposed the grant vsould no dou ~ b'• eo farther. We must extend it to the colonies. . e _
~
eiPaseseisilnaletea Proposed addition to it ; but when we con- make a firm, rigid, and unbending. rule, whichi hlenara
afenwa
fission the grant; nf the numbers of those who have hitherto years would shake your empire to pieces.—
f (h
"mr'ainten'ance
Pi 1,1,er oi,l if
Weethe MaYnootb, we cannot but come to the con. great cheering.) But admit, for the sake ot e_ .
recess
eit.,ooo not nnlY question before the House had been of the Protestant religion, that such a step should be nece. y,
OIL, `., it ,hould have increased the rant b the amount admit fur a moment that we are ready to take all the conse-
,eete„yecHear eWoUld not have withy d ' thatyou are ready to do thls—have you any
'gels n 1/1-'' Nei
met . any great oppo- quence.s—a mit
legislatefor the people of Ireland ?
see he . e se_ er can I agree with the Right Hon. right, in such a case, to
t, ,
d t the time
he
b,:as tha,`Tetary of State for the Home Department, Are you not bound to say IN. e
.engage a . i .
„tittle J the se It the whole nrin •lef th t• d fthU i to governs Ireland on principles of equality, to
.aN edreo et of 1,7 n, _,- ell) - o . e ques ion. waa e • o
.e oon g
allow them to
oft We, ,4‘ that t.,0 '4.•
.1f I agreed with that princiele, I consider Irishmen as we consider.. Englishmen, to .
ee 19e silted at e Principle of the whole question of endow• have the same rights and privileges as ourselves, to consider
til4 eollern"elY allothe same period.—( Hear, hear.) The Act every question regarding them as a question regarding
„led ao fie ee,
„wed the Roman Catholics to found their ourselves." But then, Sir, if that be the case,. it is
e'led frwnong the the education of their own clergy by funds totally inconsistent with the case of your saying that
atiess pre, ye !shelves, and the s I• h i d d • l'e' •
bbd)gin at 41. t° Year b 'um
which
.vas pospose an sour re I,ton is so exclusively true., that it cannot bear any-
„, etne.e, std ef the y Parliament, was merely a contri- thing like equality, nor even anything like favour to the great
14;tssis 'I differe "se funds.—( Hear, hear.) It was totally majority of the people of Ireland. And if that be so, if such
t)1 score differed ttit from the measure now proposed—( Hear, is the strictness of your religious principles, I defy you to stop
t 4 it Isttr'w befor d,gree—it differed in extent—from the short until you come to the repeal of the union, to which we
ylitllher e agree to elle House; and thou, hI am far from saying are all opposed. Sir, I say, if you do not meet the Irish people
sit is tit lid to end this measure we must be forced to go still in this way—if you are nut ready to fulfil the compact
.of the
~,,,i, d impoi,i,o,,, the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland ; maims nst only to the letter, but with all the affection for
•-° tali Fntlemanu'e to controvert the position of the Right your countrymen in Ireland which you feel for your country-
,Aletiglntis on the member for Newark, that, so far as men in England—then you should be prepared to say to the
isNti .celt---(Ce'ti°n is concerned, it will be decided by thispeople of Ireland, " We will not grant this boon ; we will
tit e 4; li °lid cheer \Th then remains the' Imake thisrant therefore we will give you back your
lye eseitl, the tax_.. a. / . ere
. - not you g ,
affairs.
t,aa se.
.teeanee
uhf
ftion of this country is to be burdened with own legtslature, and deal in future with your ot,yn
that you have
4 et 753 t 4 take the Roman Catholic clergy, or if ( Hear, hear.) I own it does appear
.to me
t a ree to
t_te t:.,e of the
„,arnything for their maintenance from the but one of these two courses to adopt—if you do nfo
theg
Irish
the
theg_ vote a7,ert Protestant Church•—( Hear, hear.) If we this proposition for the support
,of. the religion 0,.
la to main-
i'e Wants ofT urous which may remain, after providing people, you must dissolve the Union ; but if y,ou wits.
people
of
,40i (14 ": 4 Cati:o7 Protestant Church, to the endowment of air the Union, yo's must treat the Roman Catho Catholic
theProtes-
;t lei:_tion ne'`._rtec Church.—( Hear, hear.) That, I admit, Ireland in the same spirit as you have considered i
I sa
(then 4 d',.ogi .at difficulty, and that is a question which is tant people of England. —( tend eheers. ) Well? t senf,
few
(RY the Prev(ted. But before we decide that we mast that this is not a question of the mere consideration o
pa.
rlia-
te ern,e, )(sus question, whether the Roman Catholic thousands a ear;y it is the carrying out of an Act of a
1,4.
.eari 13 would b Inclined'bound to carry it
eintiort hearsa But e to accept such a measure. ment fifty years old, and therefore you are
•th vehi •}, • i with regardunion of the
I' 110 t ma
arise .to the mere State out if you are desirous of maintaining the,,
Hear, hear.")
I-II:little r nlau Cathoh as to the propriety of the endowment two countries inviolate.—(Lood cries of
~.. . ele espeeta _ lc clergy of the State, I must own that, Remember that we, at this side of the House, have had n
hin thesure ten.sucla measure is open to less ob'ectio than thing to do with the making of this proposition—we merely
‘ti lto, 'eh is now submitted j 'el h •
/.111 Can Ca'holicto our consieeration. say we concur in the proposition. and are p
because it is
tl„glisitewe re'seft ar., e f clergy.. of Ireland have many duties to favour of the second reading of the Bill, and not
k 4.,), of -.tiro, l'e n ?')
med by them in common with the a proposition of an exclusively religious character.—(Haar.
t_e len Scotland this country and with the Presbyterian I cannot conclude without exressing my belief that the re-
IttThee'iree,e "eu---such as reading to their flock. ' ' • • .this measure will beproductive of the same bitter-
est 4 le th •14 tul'ir parishioners fn the lnfo•ming onion of .
follow the rejection of
ay Y, eh !ir e word of God, achninis ness of feeling that would be certain to
spiritual consolation b Protestant Church
1, e t, arity,
e._ , kindness.—(
.weremade
in
4lie" thhe "a
, Hear, hear.) All this `lt yeee e" rgY in all three of th countries I be- in England.—(Cheers ) If such a propo,si,tni.,otn
it, yet so con-
tele, ntld eh- a" a body theall e perform. this House, and that I saw a majority ag ~.. - .
t of my con-
,Ees , eers. e _ y are useful and charitable men. vinced am lof its justice that even a majori..y _
eieh iso the e nut whet! the question to be 1' - d 'should deter e from voting in its favour. e.s ta, her dowMent of the Rolle",and ( iscuss stituents not m
for the bene:it of the
it
v qaesti 4 t•--then I
impulse we
t 4, Oa •,,f _ ,Say, that, as a ouestion of pr nct le, itcount( we arc not to ield to every
ee , endow "en greater importancethan I p . Y'
Y rest me:-sure of this wrilt-NlSide "nt of the 1
cause of
ooh
tei . ratten
_,
~ e c eegy.—( hear, hear.) I come to sirs only as men d• sirous of keeping in view the
The .* 4,,s impor. °I tills question, Sir, as thoroughly impressed' ' * •of • f —(Loud cheers )
Pro-
Porte:re can ,'ance as those Memb - 1
.1 us ice. .
st this Bill ; but I
ate, se as e' l'aiblY be as thoroughly'e. 3 wto are opposed tote teatant Dissenters are arrayed here again . •
Dissenters were
44, ined it those re e
~ s. impressed with its inn- cannot forgot that there was a time when those...ev,,,
Oderea,_ll as a e esentatives of Ireland can be who have petitioners before the House for the purpose of beingreli I
lehte° try...,,emeasure of conciliation and kindness towards from' ;that they cone dyed to be burdens on their conlcienc'•—
o"nt ehe (Lou,! cheers.) But, S. I this House to be bur-
ir, cannot but eon- ( Loud cheers.) Thes were deemed by
‘pln I.,eo,,le.cceptance of this measure by the they were deemed to be
'1 a dee by V a Ireland, sod f
f the House as
!teeen, otteted
..thern, as a
ilea-Useunjust} theythe I of conciliation, is such, and they were refeeesi.—( H. cer, hear.)
b • civil die-
' state"'lent •"e Peeple of f cannot but consider that that Catholics of Ireland welt:, r tTatted in like manner y
the
'lto • in the .rolled constitutes a most impor. abilities ; and the Right Honourable Gentleman now at •
'heryyt. consideration of this et,. removal
nrs the " land, e, . .
.qu a ion, as regards head of her Majesty's Government roposed the
done bee e.at,a eondni_
~xou nave statistics dreadful to read, of them.—(l.lear hear, and cheers) Was that
14; 4.14,,,` and their °I the Irish people—statistics showing because there was' any wish to regard either as a
pia• iJof t r state .f . • •
th 4 ~, , . her, 1. . destitution—statistics, showing Merely religidus question? No, it was because their cause
he 'likes 'vs In cabins w.th their claims could
e* 1 obly . without s ' i out roce—horn many ass bound up with the cause of justice, and
..
men-
ts.t.Nstt'te I." on
vindovtg—how many in cabins not therefore, be
of its I support this
Ite Y. lit Pr°Port• ms, and so 'nk that
,going on to sittotv sure because lam convinced of its justice—for Ido thi
*b (4 •ou Inn se
actuated—but we
th %, ,Poveet have likewise Ile°lne are in a stat.,! of is the only feeling by which we should be
efs leg 3* "It° belongd' f Your
people who liveshould take no note as to what amount of lavour or is a
Satni rteeer y hay, t . to the Roman Catholic reli ion, we sheuld incur when we are a 1.• the side of justice. (Cheers )
tO! theenc: and eent"otepenti not only on the contrih t. gof M belief s then, that this measure will be grateful received
nee . pooe out litre us somewhat in a comfortableu um,' •y l l' I toldthat this gratitude is ma-
tte-ea to th est etaa wise on the pence and l sta..e of in Ireland. may be by time
to call
tee *La 4t eotte 'of the ole y miserable earnings placed, and that the grant is too small and too paltry
What I
Maya treblyry art
Established You have at the same forth such a feeling, but that is not for me to consider.
f a long
eee ers4o,eadthatt Choech very richly en- say is, that this is but one of a series of acts o
the
we also se" he whole su
'lle late In now proposed course of measures of justice due to Ireland.— Ch
(If h the grant would hardly exceed the I shall maintain, as I have maintained, that to w lc

e•
e•

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, APRIL l9, 1845.

feel for the interests of religion, and for the cause
of education. But do you act inconsistently with the prin-
ciples of the Christian religion if you raise their character, at
leeet their position, and give Item the means of supporting
their religion wall decency. Now. mark what results from this
principle and endowment Act. You have given permission to
landed proprietors to snake voluntary endowments. Sir, Ido
lea e that the landed proprietors witl avail themselves of the
fatalities which are legitimately afforded them under the Act,
we cannot conceive any mode of endowment pregnant with
mice advantages to the public interest, and tending more to
assuage the bitterness to which religious differences give rise
than in such a connexion. If you will make the Roman Catho-
lic priests net merely skilful polemics, but useful in every
respect, give them the means of acquiring sci, ntific acquire-
ments, of making them good chemists, good proficients in
modern science, then probably the landed peoprietors will feel
an inducement to avail themselves of this power, and by
voluntary contributions make endowments. The increase of
this vote has a material influence upon the Charitable Bequests
Ac`, and will greatly facilitate its execution. We are told
that the establishment is of a monastic and ascetic character.
Whose fault is that? Not the fault of the harem Catholic
priests. In 1795, at the institution if Maynooth College, Mr.
Grattan presented a petition from the Roman Catholic body,
objecting to that clause in the Act which prevented the educe-
hole of Protestants there, and the trustees of Maynooth Col-
lege established a lay college there, and did not wish that the
institution should be of an exclusive character. We interfered
to prevent this, and Mr. Abbott informed the secretary to
3laynooth College that. the Brit ish Gevernment would not
allow the lay college to continue, and it was
accordingly suppreased.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore the
Roman Catholic authorities were not responsi de for
the peculiar character cf the education pursued there.
..t the same time my belief is, that any attempt to make, asa
coedition of the education given them, that it should be of a
mixed and secular character—any attempt of this sort would
v rtually alter the character of liberality, anal probably prevent
the acceptance of this grant. 3lr. Burke inculcated on the
:Latish G .vernment the policy of giving separate education
to those who were destined to discharge the functions of the
Roman Catholic priesthood. Why, Sir, you determined then
ihat it was desirable to increase this grant, and you deter-
mined to increase it, and to make the offer in a manner which
sheula be thoroughly acceptable to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. We considered well that question. We did not act
precipitately. We asked ourselves the question, shall we,
before proposing this increase, institute an iteptiry
into the course of instruction pursued there. We referred to
the inquiry instituted in 1826, and came to the conclusion that
no beneficial result would arise from a Commission of Inquiry.
Was that inquiry conducted in a friendly or a hostile spirit ?
We thought that that would give rise to hostile theological
corit roiersy, b cause the Commission would contain necessarily
many persons hostile to Maynooth ; and I admit we thought it
better to adopt Maynooth as it was. We determined
to trust for the beneficial effects of our interference
to the liberality and coefidenee w ith which we acted.—( Hear.)
Sir, we proposed that the vote should be permanent instead of
annual. We did not think that by making it a permanent in of an annual vote we interfered with any existing prin.
(aide ; and we do think that by making it permanent we shall
remove annual controversy and dise.ussion from the House of
Commons—(Cheers)—that we shall produce peace and relieve
ourselves from painful contention.—( Cheers.) We incorpo-•
rated the trust because we thought that actual incorporation was conformity with the spirit which the original Act possessed.
You appointed trustees, and you enabled them to purchase land,
but you did not enable them to possess the land so acquired ;
you engender great expense upon them-- you admitted the
principle that trustees should be appointed—that they should
have the power of acquiring land, we propose that they should
have the power of holding the necessity of constant supervi,ion.
hat is the nature of the grant we propose—l say that in mak •
.ing this grant, though we incorporate the trustees—though the
vote is permanent— I say that in this there is no
violation of principle, which does net apply to the
continuation of the vo'e for auother fifty Years,
that vote being applied distinctly under the authority of Par-
liament to the inculcation of the tenets of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion.—( Hear, hear.) It is said that the Roman
Catholic people of Ireland are indifferent to this—that this
grant will be without any effect on the people of Ireland—
that they will reject it as an unnecessary boon, and will not
be thankful for it. I think you do itatistice to their feel-
ings. —( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I believe the gene-
rosity with which you shall have acted, will
produce gratitude in them.—( Hear, bean', When
they heard of the proposition, they wrote immediately a letter
of which this is a part. I think there arc 17 professors at.
Maynooth ; and this letter, addeessed tome, is signed by 16 out
of 17, the other being incapacitated from signing it by illness;
and they thus expressed themselves Sir, The undersigned
beg leave respectfully to :express their deep sense of gratitude
for the very liberal prevision which you, as the head of the
Government, have proposed for the education of the Roman
Catholic clergy, and still more for the kind and gracious
manner in which you have recommended the mea-
sure to the favourable consideration of Parliament."
Now if you ask me whether I believe it more for the interest
of this country that the educators of youth should be influenced
by the grateful feeling here expressed, rather than that they
should be men whom you have starved on the pittance von
have hitherto given them—(Lend cheers)—l do not hesitate
to say that I believe it to be for the interests of peace and good
order—( Hear, hear)—nay, that I believe it rather for the
interests of the Protestant religion that I should commit the
instruction of young men who are to be the spiritual
guardians of the people of another faith, to in-
structors who will be grateful for liberality rather
than to men who view with discontent and indignation
the paltry pittance which you assign to them, under the
pretence of supporting them —( Loud cheers.) I do not
carry this too far —I do not mean to say that they are satisfied
with the law, or that the institution will be perfectly satis-
factory. Ido not mean to say that they have made any com-
promise or sacrifice of principle—l cannot guarantee to you
that they will receive any vote for Maynooth, as, in their
opinion, a complete and final measure.—( Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial benches.) No, I cannot say that ; but they are not
indifferent to your liberality, and in the first impulse o
a generous feeling they say this is an honourable and libera
provision for us. That is the only inference I wish to draw,
Ind that is the motive upon which we act in making this
grant. My [lon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis) has put two ques-
tions to me. He has said, " I call on you to slate whether or
nor this is part for a preconcerted system, the whole of which
we have not developed, and whether this proposition, in re-
ference to Maynooth, is brought forward designedly for the
purpose, and of a further endowment of the Roman Catholic
clergy. I will answer him that this measure is
brought forward singly and individually on its oen abstract
merits—that this proposition is not part of a preconcerted sys-
tem—and that it is not brought forward with the design of
bringing forward any further measure. We have had no com-
munications whatever on the subject, with any authorities in
Ireland or elsewhere. We have nothing upon that sub-
ject in our contemplation. You may say I saw ru-
mours to the effect, that though there was no com.
munication with Roman Catholic authorities in Ireland,
yet that we have had secret negotiations with higher autho.
rities at Rome. Now I state explicitly that those reports are
altogether without foundation, and I have a strong impression
that you will do no good in Ireland by secret and unavowed
negotiations with Rome to which the Roman Catholics
of Ireland are not made a party.—( Hear, hear. )
Ido not believe that any attempt at negotiation for the pur-
pose of fettering the independence of the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland, or of establishing a connexion between the
Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and the State, could lead
to any satisfactory result unless the Roman Catholic clergy and
the Roman Catholic laity of Ireland were parties to that ne-
gotiation.—(Cheers.) I have said that this measure which
we now propose is not a part of any general system. 1 have
said that it is net brought forward for the purpose of facilitating
any future proposal for the endowment of the Roman Catholic
Church of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But I say, also, with re-
spect to that question of endowment that it is a question sur-
rounded with great difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) I see no
reason to believe that there exists on the part of the Roman
Catholic laity—l see no reason to believe that there exists on
the part of the Roman Catholic any intention to depart from
the declaration which was made on n recent occasion by the
lion. Gentleman the lion. Member for Kildare with respect
to the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church. It was distincly
stated by that lion. Gentleman, that both the Catholic laity
and the Catholic clergy were opposed to any State endowment
of the Roman Catholic church. It is also impossible not to
see, after the demonstrations of feeling which have been made
in this country with regard to the measure under niscussion,
that the subject is one of immense difficulty ; and in stating
simply and merely the truth with respect to this, then, I say
It'llthe
principlesof
that we entertain on intention of proposing any measure for
the endowment of the Roman Catholic church ; but when
my Honont6le Friend says, will you go on to say that it
is not consistent with your principles to propose any endow-
ment for the Roman Catholic Church Bill. You say that you
have decided that at any future time you will not propose any
such endowment. I say that my Right Hon. Friend has no
right to ask such a question.—(Cheers and counter cheering.)
Now, I beg the House to draw no unfavourable instances from
what I have said.—(lronical eheers. ) We have no such in-
tention; but I will not consent to hamper and embarrass any
future Government by any declaration like that sought to be
wrung from me—that the difficulties in the way of the
endowment of the Roman Catholic Church are insuperable.
—(Cheers.) We have not any such measure in contemplation.
at present. I see very great difficulties in the way of such a
a proposition, but no one has any right to call upon one to say
that those difficulties are insuperable, and I will not purchase
any relaxation of the opposition by which this measure has been
met by placing upon record any declaration fettering the ac-
tion of those who may hereafter be responsible for the Govern-
vernment. My Hon. Friend asks if Ido not consider that on
principle there is a religious objection to this measure. Now I
cannot say that there is any decided religious objection to it.
I do not think that my Honourable Friends can
fairly take a religious objection to this proposal.
tsaeasareknenef positionotefrrares tiwiatphredoijelsipir!
Luosi
teompi
teibrlavr:
aiysgoi.
iirseaauetnbi
violation
nekcfonot
noort
wfot.
chttthhephi
that ( Hear, hear.) Now a religious objection might have
l
o
been much more fairly taken to the Endowment Act of
last session.—( Cheers.) By that Act you created a board
for facilitating the endowment of the Roman Catholic clery,
anti for the building of Roman Catholic chapels. Now, that
measure was much more open to religious objection than the
proposition for :n increased grant to Maynooth. I cannot
concur in the dictum of the Hon. Gentleman, that it is an
offence in the eyes of God and a dereliction of religions principle
in all circumstances, and at all times to grant money for res
ligious purposes to those who stiffer from the religious tenets of
the Church to which we belong. Now let us see howmy Hon.
Friend gets over the difficulty of Malta. True, he says, we took
Malta under a capitulation, which we are bound to observe ;
but why should we take Malta at all ?—(Lottd cheers.) Why,
because it was a convenient possession in the Mediterranean,
and we are ready to go to war rather than abandon.it.—( Hew-,
hear.) But if a religiouasinipitlriiin4hlLcetisopunalte,re(tonwellaahneespilsa sereligious
involved
Government
impost
ut.
p ei
rnn.
p fineente
shouldr en.
ear
interests
tyts r
—if it were contrary to religious principle to undertake the
he
maintenance of the Roman Catholic Church, why did we accept
Malta at all? My Hon. Friend cannot get rid of the difficulty
by referring to the capitulation. Thy religious difficulty was
involved in the acceptance of it.—(Loud cheers.) But, Sir,
this is a most dangerous doctrine to advoCate as respects
the interests of the Established Church itself.—( Hear, and
cheers.) The principle is this, that it is a violation of con-
science to call upon any one to support a religious faith
from the tenets of which he dissents.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
in arguing the question of establishments for the Dissenter, I
may say to bins that the Established Church is a great national
institution, that as such, all have an interest in its welfare, and
all are equally called on to contribute towards its support, and I
may say, too, in doing so, you violate no conscientious scruple.
You are aiding the general cause of „religion by supporting the
Established Church. But 1 say to the Dissenter no tax cats
conscientioush e imposed for
scruplestl m a ion; a
thosei ne n ee
whoof the
dissent. Established
front
ltei
rie,tnhnoCyaeoinliuisdurn.be, ratiuibthey;::iniftilotteithieualapeerti
that, I make him, whether he be willing or not, contribute to-
wards its support, if I subject him, not only to a pecuniary im-
post, in support of the Church, but accompanying that
Church by
d
d
extension.( oud heers
scruples
enmlnir
potwt
that
tat
tt
ofi tnh. e
Gentleman Established
t :Church.—(
ystht
o
eaitrhad done in
Qclosensftvruce
tion
rch Establish •
cheers.)e
rsteohs cagesingeki tofi he
church-satestemeaeddraiNvfia:Coyesaeaawribli iati ule tepoewl isdene aea xn ati
°hi": that
Government
tseoh nwe
ment, should we be able, in accordat •

Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home benches on one side of the House, and who on the other. But
Department alluded last night—the placieg- of the 'Topic of if they considered the petitioos, almost without number,
lreland on an equality with the people , f England,—( Hear, and then looked at the general expression of the feeling
hear. ) I shall likewise, with regal(' to the Established of the country universally; firmly, spontaneously expressed
Cherch, state that that great anomaly of a largely endowed on this question—be could not but perceive that if this measure
Church for a small minority of the people, is unjust, and that aver, eat fled it would be carried mminst the desire of the
it is a subject which Parliament must consider—( Hear, hear. ) nit de of the Christian people ea the country. He would tell
I will not conceal those opinions. 1 will not deny that . the flight Hon. Baronet i hat ho had lost the good a ill of the
I shall attempt, after this measure passes—( Hear. people of England. This was not like a mere political affection,
hear'—to support any measure proposed by ()tiers, or whi&i you might gain te-morrow as you lose it yesterday.
if not p reposed by them, I shall propose myself, which shall They had given hint their confidence because they believed
give to the pool le of Ireland that justice which has been so that he bad a regard for the great institutions of the country.—
long and so cruelly denied to them,_( Loud cheering ) If ( Hear, hear. ) 13ut he could assure him that in dis-
you will permit me for a few moments longer, I would beg of ; appointing those expectations he had forfeited the
this House to consider how much this country has been in- ; confidence of the people—( Herr, hear)—and in losing that
jured, how many administrations have been disturbed and rent : confidence, he had lost the power of governing them, and in
asunder, by these Irish questions.—( Hear, hear.) I will not ; losing. that, he had lost the source of his political power. He
go back to any very remote period, but going bank to the time I would refer to the lion. Member for Newark (.Mr. Gladstone),
of the union, I find that Mr. Pitt, then in the height of his to the determined and enereetic Member fur Stockport ( Mr.
power, had decided upon an Irish question, and that an Coblen). and he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether
Irish question broke up the Government of Mr. Pitt. Mr. lon ar.y of the great questions to which they hey were commit ted, they
Pitt intended a union between the two countries. He in. , had either of them yielded their principles? In the course
tended, as fir ascan be discovered from his subssgaent speeches, I which he (Sir It. Inglis) had taken, he had compromised
in addition to that union, a complete relief frau civil and ; nothing, and he hoped that lie should be able to maintain that
political disabilities for the Roman Catholics, and a provision ; Course to the end. The Hon. and Gallant Commodore the
for the Roman Catholic Cherch.—( Hear, hear.) The I Member for AI teelebone had appealed to his justice avid his
Ministry of Mr. Pitt fell, and his firm Administration was ! fears. In his own profession it was well known that the Gal-
followed by the weak Administration of Mr. Adding-on, ; lent Officer had never known fear, and he would tell him in
Mr. Pitt afterwards returned to power, but he did not return . return, that on this occasion he was ready to do
with his former partners, with Lord Grenville, and others, ; him justice, anti he felt that he need not entertain fear.
who agreed a ith him upon the Catholic question, ; Ile begged to assure the (louse that he nos regarded this as a
'great question of Protestant principle, whatever other lion.
and who did not agree with him in coming
back without the question of Catholic Ernarmieation being Members might think to the contrary, and while he felt s:r-
proposed to Parliament. His administration was strong for a tisfied on that point, and that he taw his was clearly in the
time, for there were men of the highest abil ty in it. In 1807 I course he was about to take, he would act and v,'te, in the way
it was broken, it fell upon on Irish question—a Catholic qUeS- :he hail already announced, perfectly regardle.-s of cansequences.
tion, especially affecting Ireland. You had then an adminis- I For he looked spun the discharge of his duty in that llou•e
tratinn formed on the ground of refusing all c nc,ions; that I upon that question as of paramount importance, anti he would
did not last many years, and Lori Castlereagh declared it was I leave cansrquenc,s to Providence. He now begged to conclude
necessary that some concession should be made to the Roman lay saying that he most heartily concurred with the motion 0
Catholics. In the time of war, when this country was threat- hie Hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle,.(llear, hear.)
ened with peril, or when it was not in danger from Sir R PEEL—Sir, I trust we have now a-rived at the
foreien wars, the Catholic question was opposed or supported. close of this discussion —a discussion which has been protracted
This state of things was continued from 1812 to 1829, and I to a period unesually, and unprecedented!), lung, but it has not
the Catholic question weakened every Administration thst was 1 occupied near the time that it was necessary to devote to it,
carried un in the meantime. We have had the spectacle of i considering the vast magnitude and importance of the seject
Seeretaries of Stare opposing each other on questions the mot ; under discussien, and the sentiments elicited in the debate.
important and vital to our domestic policy.--( Hear, hear.) In l In the course of the debate it has been my good fortune to
1828 you had an Administration which contained many Mem- listen to sentiments and feelins which the nature of the subject
bets opposed to the Catholic claims, but in 1829 those claims naturally called tor.—`Cheers.)
were conceded. In 1830, in consequence, a; I think, Honourable Members, declaring the course they intended
very much of the decision upon that questlon, the Ministry to pursue, even at the hazard of the less of their
ea, broken up. Earl Grey came into power -- the sett,. I have heard many Menabers on this side of the House
Reform Bill was carried. The alininry who ea,._ expressing their approval of the me: sure, while I have beard
tied it had at first an immense majority in the many more, actuated no doubt by feelings equally conscientious,
blouse of Commons. Everything was easy because declaring that. they differed from the former, and announcing
it was a strong Government In 1834 that Ministry the course they intended to
pursue, without permitting party
was weakened and divided upon the question relating to the or political considerations to interfere. I beg to assure those
state of Ireland. Four members of the Cabinet seceded, and Honourable Alembers that, however deeply I may regret the
not long of er Eail Grey himself retired from office. That opp situ:on I have encountered, I honour those at whose hands
Ministry before long ceased to exist. Another Ministry as-as I have met it.--( Loud cheers.) On the other hand—l stow
formed, and dissolved by a vote of this House on a question speak of birth sides of the House-1 must say that the example
affecting Ireland. A new Ministry came in in 1835, during of those lion. Members is such as is highly honourable to
the whole course of their existence having a small majority, them, because no doubt they hive pursued that course because
In consequence of what had taken alace in 1834, they believed it to be Politic and just ; and I have no
the whole course of their existence of power was hesitation in saying that such conduct is highly
weakened and crippled; but it was owing to a honourable both to those who have supported, and
decision with regard to the state of Irelasd, a difference of opi- those who have opposed the measure, for, in adopting that
nion with regard to the measures they had brought in respect- course, they have the anger of their constituents, and hare run
ing that country, that they were weakened—( Hear, hear)— the risk of relinquishing their political statien.—( Hear, hear.)
I have taken other occasions, and I e ill still take other occa- I have, up to this time, abstained from making any observation
sions to refer to the particular questions involved in those des upon this discussion, and whatever feelings may hare been ex-
bates from 1835 to 1841. But what I want to show now is, cited within tee, by the observations 1 have heard during the
that since the time of the Union till 1845, there has been debate, they have been overpowered by, and merged into, one
scarcely a year in which Governments have not been weakened, feeling of deep interest and hope that this House would not be
and Adrainistrations formed and destroyed upon questions in a parry to the rejection of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) You
some degree relating to the Roman Catholic religion and to will not, perhaps, be surprised that this,measure should not
the state of the people of lreland.—( Hear, hear.) Why, have emanated from those in this Rouse who have hitherto
without any reference to war, or any other contingency, if you been known as the firm friends of the Roman Catholics
cats see that you can proceed by any measure to tranquillise of Ireland, or that those who have brought it forward
:hat country—that if you can hit on any course of policy in should have forfeited your confidence.—( Hear, hear.)
which parties generally may ag:ee—upon which you may at Be that as it may, all I will say is, if we have
length come to some concord on questions relating to Ireland, forfeited the confidence of this side of the House, punish us as
you will add immeasurably to the strength of this country.— you may think fit, deprive us of office, withdraw your confi-
(Loud cheers ) Is this question—is this shOrt review here deuce from us, but do not, I beg Yost, disregard the conse-
given—a view of the question that has been taken by the pe- quences that will be sure to follow the rejection of this mea-
titioners who have carried their petitions to the table of this sure.—(Loud cheers. ) You tell us—the Hon. Baronet the
House—have they considered this question in reference to the Member for the University of Oxford tells us— that we have
power and strength of this country ? If not, let the beg of forfeited the confidence, not only of the great party we had in
them to consider—differing from them, with respect for their this House, but also the confidence of a still more powerful
virtue and their afros).- sense of religion which makes them ap- party cut of it. If any one looks to the condition of Ireland,
proach this House—let' me, at the same time, if, in considering and to the course which this debate has taken, 1 think he will
•
this q testion, I have ventured to use my own independent. admit that nothing but a sense of public duty could induce gar
judgment—let me attempt to vote its favour of a Bill which Majesty's Ministers to incur the risk which we have incurred,
may tend, in some degree, to heal those still bleeding wounds, and are incurring.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It cannot
and to place Ireland in that position which she ought to be— be doubted by any one who looks fairly—l will not
the most improving, if not the most happy part of her Ma- say wisely to our conduct, that we hare beers governed by a
jetty's dominions. The Noble Lord concluded amidst loud wish to promote the interests and to conciliate the feelings of
and prolonged cheering. the Irish people?—( Cheers.) In 1843 there was a formis
Sir R. INGLIS said that of all the important speeches dable excitement in Ireland. There were immense meetings--
which lie had ever heard he considered that of the Noble Lord threatening to the tranquillity and peace of the whole country
the Member for London the most important.—( Hear, hear.) —or even of the empire. We determined to resist that move-
The Noble Lord avowed to the House that there were other ment—(Cheers)—we determined to check it—(Cheers)---
measures which would be more acceptable to the people of Ire- but we did not see any necessity—and there was none—for
land. It had been objected to the petitions presented to the calling upon the Legislature to give extraordinary powers.
House against this measure that the persons from whom they We resisted all the iocitements to hasty and precipitate action,
came did not utv'erstand the doctrines of their own Church. but when a case was established that the public peace was
But he would defy any Gentleman to show any statement in in danger, we rel:ed upon the justice of the case, and we
the numerous petitions which had been presented to the House enforced the powers of the Coostitutien. There was at the
on this question, which was not supported by the time a universal feeling that if we did not vindicate the law
doctrines of the liturgy and the homilies of the Church. we should be accused of imbecility. We did so. And the
He and the Hon. Members who supported him in that question, measures which we have since taken, with those which we now
repudiated in the most earnest manner the supposition that. propose, hare been calculated to promote the happiness, and
money formed any part of the question, at the same time that to conciliate the affections, of the people of Ireland. There-
he was willing to admit that an increase of funds might make an fore, the objections do not come from the English ministers,
engine that might otherwise be powerless, powerful in mischief. or those interested in the maintenance of the Protestant cause.
—( Hear, hear.) Still that was not their objectioe to the in- (Hear, bear.) At than time, whether it was that
crease. Their objection was to the principle of the measure. you had a more lively recollection of the state of
But then they might be asked the question so repeatedly put. Ireland in 1843, I know not, but you did almost
in that House in the course of that debate,—What do you unanimously approve of a measure brought in by the Govorn-
mean by your religious scruples on this subject? He was not went, which expressly permitted, sanctioned, and encouraged
grossly, scandalously, and ludicrously inconsistent. No. "They the endowment of Roman Catholic Bishops and Ministers, and
did not support a grant of a sum of money to a prin. the advancce of money for the building of Roman Catholic
ciple which they could not recognise as founded places of worship.—( Cheers.) Well, but if you did that, why
in truth. They were not inconsistent, for they did not pro- are religious objections to be revived now ?—( Cheers. ) You
mote the support of that principle in which they did not appointed five Roman Catholic Commissioners (there were ten
believe. He had been permitted by the House to make the Commissioners appointed, five necessarily Roman Catholic and
assertion often, and he would make it again, that he acted a Roman Catholic Secretary, and the expenses of that Corn-
upon the principle of doing that which his conscience con- mission were defrayed out of the public funds ; we did that in
tittered right, and his votes were given accordingly. He order that we should institute and encourage a voluntary en-
dared not compromise the teachings of his conscience, be- dowment of the Roman Catholic clergy. We were authorised
cause his neighbour had been led to a different conclusion. to use the discretion of the Crown, with respect to the
They were told, however, that it was too late to act upon appointment of some of those Commissioners—we proposed
that principle. The Hon. Member for Montrose had ap- that three of those should be prelates of the Roman Catholic
pealed to him as having, in his early life, been connected Church—they felt it their duty to accept the appointment, and s
with India, and be asked him how be could consistently they acted from public and most disinterested motives. They
advocate any exclusive -mode of religious instrnetion ? believed that you were honest in your intentions in doing an
He thanked that Hon. Member for the delicate manner in act of justice in a kind manner ; and I trust that the result of
which he had referred to one of his relatives most dear to him that Act was to break up that, in some degree, formidable
—he meant his late father. First of all, then, he did not be- combination of the laity, clergy, and physical strength which
limits that the British Parliament, for good or evil—in rsspect then existed. These prelates had great diflicuPy to encounter
of the matter to which the Hon. Member had referred, and in undertaking to ce-operate with us in the execution of that
to which the Hon. Member for Canterbury had afterwards measure. There was a formidable agitation directed agaihnest
adverted, namely, that the Presidency of Bombay had made a them, but confiding in the purity of their motives, and -
distinct stipulation that the Church of Rome should re- lieving in the honourable intention)
resisted the force of
Lain its privileges—had any authority to interfere. But they res. . that agitation, and we had the setts-
there and
was another question for consideration, which faction of seeing the prelates of the Established Churchfriendly
House, still more important for the purposes of that the prelates of the Roman Catholic religion acting in
House, and to which he would advert for a few minutes. The concert for the promotion of a common object. Let me say,
same Hoe. Member who had addressed the question to him that that was no small object to obtain. By the execution of
of the Government,
relative to India said that they had no right, to consider any- the first Act—that Act which received almost the unanimous
thing but those mere contents which the Bill embodied ; that approbation of this House, and there was no violation of public
they were not at liberty to consider the necessary eonse.. principle—no sacrifice of the interests of that Protestant
sre-
f
quences of their measure, namely, the endowment of the ligion to-which I trust I firmly adhere, and the
Roman Catholic Church—to• consider nothing more than that which I hold in as high estimation as any of my Hon.f F i 11
justice
contained in the Bill, namely, the endowment of the Roman around me. But the result of the measure 0
j which
Catholic clergy of Maynooth—that, he apprehended, would be offered in the spirit of kindness was that
in the
a very narrow view of the question. lie would call the I have described. 1
.t was an encouragement to proceed
make,
attention of the House to the statement made by the same spirit. Ido not say it was an encouragement to an
doctrine
d.
,t )
Secretary of State for the Home Department. He ad- concession inconsistent with religious principles and e°n't'keus
rnitted that this 'measure could not be longer delayed, tional principles; and I say no more than that it
an expression which he (Sir IL Inglis) considered not likely to encouragement to proceed in the course of
should take
secure a very favourable acceptance among those for whose justice. We had then to consider what course we
Neither
peculiar benefit. it Yves to be directed. His Hon. Friend the with respect to Maynooth. It was forced upon u'.
do
Member for Newark represented himself—(Laughter)—and he we, nor you, can escape the consideration. What
willforyoufift3
said that they must propose to go further. The Honourable with the College of Alaynooth ? You supported it
1.
to
Member for Cork said that this was a great earnest of greater years. My Honourable Friend (Sir Robert H. fug
'Abet
things;s
but, with reference to the Bill itself, he called it a prove the great difficulty of argument, makes the a
conwcialiaatiomnarand
paltry educational grant. He ( Sir R. Inglis) felt that it was he is prepared to withdraw the grant. Sir.
down here
so; it was a renewal of Peter's pence—it was a new tribute to When opposed to her Majeety's Government, I came
I
the Church of Rome. The Hon. the Secretary of War had expressly to support them in the maintenance of that grant. House
said that this was but the precursor of more. Of mote, aye, do not really believe that there can be ten
men
inf
thisast the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church. He just who, after having voted for the endowment Act ocat
hollc Pre•
year—
touched that question, and then at once turned from it.— having acted in cordial concert with the Roman
the execu-
( Great laughter.) Another Member of the Cabinet, lates who constituted the Commission
rm. ten men who
the First Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, tion of that Act—l do not believe there
arc
this year, anti
I am net. 2(oCwlateers. )
had used the same familiar phrase, and said that this was but think it would be possible for us to come dow
prevent our
one step. Now, one step must certainly mean a second.— state that we have conscientious scruples to What would be
conti-
(Laughter.) Then another Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan- nuing the grant to the Cdlege of Maynootl
vote. You passed
laughter.) Now all that he could draw from these conclu- an avowal ? We contend it is not merely
cellor of the Exchequer had specifically said—nothing.—(Great the feeling of the whole Roman Catholic Maynooth, on such
ou appointed trustees,
vernment was, that there would be at an after period an en- institution. You appointed a visitor,
andvis3ion of the Lord-Lieu-
future conclusions half admitted by the Members of the Go- three Acts of Parliament for cementing th,eaconnexion with that
dowment of the Catholic clergy, and that in 1846, or at some and you subject their bye-laws to tfhe
which you stand to May-
future time, the Government would sooner or later proceed to tenant ; and the nomina?
such measure before the House. The Hon. Member his approbation. The relations
any one conceive it
hay some
years, and can . .
the late Secretary of War (Mr. Ellice) had, also stated that nooth have existed for 50
Itio in 1840 thought It impossible
they were now embarking on a new course. What possible that 1, for instance, who . .
hould advise the
to that institution, s
did that mean ? What, but the endowment of the to withhold the grant
itself from all connexion with
nomination
Roman Catholic Church ; and yet they were told that they House of Commons separatetobe
few who think that course desirable.
were to consider nothing but what was embodied in that Bill. it ? Surely there can
I say that is a
the grant? Sir,
there President depends upon
A new course of policy was to be adopted--yea, a new course, Shall we continpune
the vote.
than the discontinuance of
when they exchanged a small sum for a permanent endowment course worse est.
of three times the amount, fixed on a similar scale of security Some Honourable Gentlemen have doubted the ac-
-namely, the vested civil establishment of the country. curacy of the statement which I made with regard
Gentleman read some
In a speech made by the Hon. Member for Cork, on the 14th to Maynooth. The Right Hon.
April, 1845, he found an allusion made to the anticipated account which he had received of the comfortahle situation
of the building. Sir, I
restitution of property once held by the Roman Cath shies in of the students, and appearance
Ireland. Now, he wished to know if the House was prepared believe that I shall be confirmed by those who have been
to admit the principle involved in this phrase " restitution." If there in all I said--namely, that it is an institution professedly
it began in Ireland, would it end there? No, there were many supported by the Government and Parliament, and is in aof the patronage of this House.
in that and the other House of Parliament to whom that condition utterly u
n W orth b
eY a much more correct account than
phrase restitution of abbey and Church lands—( Hear, hear)— I find what I believeto i
would not awaken most gratefnl recollections, or, at any rate, that to which the R ght Hon- Gentleman has referred. It
which would not excite pleasing anticipations. But, if it be was quoted by a
Noble Lord, who is better acquainted with
han almost any other Peer in the House
just that the Church property in Ireland, which had been held the state of Ireland t
by the Protestants and their successors since the of Lords—l mean Lord Monteagle—who quoted from a book
Reformation, l'should be restored to the Roman Catholics, which was written in the year 1834. It contained an accu-
why necessities to which the
should not the same priciple be claimed and acted rate description
of
the disagreeableh
were exposed. This writer said that
upon in England? If they were to endow the Chutch of Rome students in Maynoot
who did not witness the state of
in Ireland, why should It not be endowed in England ? There no Englishman could conceive
at Maynooth. ( Hear, hear, 1
was nothing to prevent it, and the House might depend upon things which prevailedhe
kitchen, and students'-room,
* ,
it one would follow the other. They could, perhaps, form a The dining-room, t
and the same writer .asked °Ill•
why
better opinion of this measure from the opinions of foreigners, were all the
same,• of the place be so shamefully re
and what was the impression of their continental neighbours? should the condition.
d the Right Hon. Baronet), this is the.
Whatever might be said of the leading articles which appeared , duced I And yet (sal
n Catholic students are to be ed
in the English newspapers, there was no doubt those that ap- I place in which those Roma
some 9,0001. a year 7 Some u-f
din the papers of the Continent, particularly those of oated, and to whom you assign
peare e d against Ma of
France, have been uree ynooth only
France, were far more important and influential, because
they the objections which
the policy of altering thissystem. My
ily written by influential statesmen. And what confirm my opinion
were genera,
of
for Dublin said that. the M
. aynooth
said the Journal des Debuts on this measure ? Why, it was Hon. Friend the Memberlate
Can you be sur-
this, " The measure
of the Prime Minister of England is priests took a part in the agitation.h
man den in whet the grant was given—
neither more nor less than a resolution of the policy pursued prised at it? The m
by England since that gran
the Reformation. It is the greatest the amount of
conces-
t—so far from affordin
.
and enlightened education, g the
compelled
excepting the
sion yet made by the Protestants, without
education exclusively
Emancipation Act of 1829." And such eas the feeling of the them to make theirltheologian,
make that theolog-y
great body who had forwarded remonstrances against the mea- and compelled them
btueen the consequence of -theezveotuesel
sure. They did not object to their Roman Catholic fellow- polemical. What has that
Three professors of theology they stillla mooth ?.t
subjects enjoying equal civil rights with . them, you gave to A 3 . had been
fcssors living on some 100/lor 120/. a year,
to the measure they were discussing would lead appointed—three pro .
the doctrines of the R '
thoughtto another of a more important character, and even- endowed by you for teachingas_ ornan
k any practical
11result in the downfal of Protestantism.—( Hear.)
Catholic faith. Js it, I
of compensation to
tua y violation of .
dread a
led to embark
Yet if by this series of measures they were ln them ;orit it from .
roonious way. I read an account' •
which would occasion the endowment of the Roman that niggardly and pars in
one
thought that the House ought to be the evidencegiven in 1826, of the Professors
Catholic Church, then he
__ , , - ooth A gentleraa highlyd.
hat they assented. He wished to ask his of Greek and Latin at aYn ' n, is_
very careful to w
whether this was the end or the beginning, his acquirements, and who had gained every
Right Hon. Friend 1 ti g n uished for
h • the
to aut ortzs education of 500 prize, was asked what be was, before this Commission. fie re-
whether this was s'itmtop ythe endowment of of Greek and Latin." lie was then asked
go on to
young men, or ;Iva; i
He would ask whether there was any ul- it he received anything from the annual.vote.
itt said that he
' I olic Church e
(sat s for he thought that if a great received 801. a year Irish! thirty guineas of which were de-
statesman in contemplation,
tenor measurerocerses and other necessaries. Can we
four years i'n the uncontrolled possession of ducted on account of g
had been
with
such a question as this he would have continue that state of things? Do we violate any principle by
power to go on
chalked out for himself some
particular course. He had been improving it?—(Load cries of " Hear, hear.") If so, Sir, I
the other night
surprised to hear . the Right Hon. Baronet thecannot
party to the continuance of anch a state of
be any
Secretary for the Home Department, when this measure was things. They would not send out theologists to be parish
under consideration—he wassurprised to hear that Right lion. priests of Ireland, clergymen capable of nista ucting their
Baronet say that he could _nnt
see
the propriety of taking the flocks. who had received an education of this sort. We pros
funds from the existing establishment was a pose to increase in Ireland. This the comforts of life, and better the condition
curious phrase to come
from the lips of the most determined of the professors. We propose to bobd out to them induce-
riation Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Was the meets, in order that they may remain longer there. We wish
opponent of the Approp
t which had prevailed since the Re- to have men of high acquirements and grocrl character. At
most powerful excitement ?
He could not look at this as a t they devote themselves to this, toil at t las
presen
form Bill to be disregardedof little matter to him who tat on the miserable salary, for the pure zeal voimi they
It was
hasty question.

the Hon. Gentlemen to call upon the Dissenters to contri-
bute without any violation of their religious scruples?—( Loud
cheers.) I must confess that I see no difference in the cases,
and I believe that we vielate religious so, uples just as much in
calling upon members of the Established Church to contribute to
the support of the Protestant Disaentera of Ulster, as to call
upon those Dissenters to contribute to the support of the Esta-
blidaol Church. This is a most dangerous doctrine to propa•
gate with regard to the Established Church. Do yeti violate
any religions principle by calling upon the Quaker, who ob-
jects to all was, to contribute towards the support of the
standing army ? Sir, I do not believe that there is any religious
principle involved in this measure.—(Cheers.) I believe that
the; measure which is now proposed by the Government
fir the permanent endowment of Maynooth is just towards
the Roman Catholics, and that it is contrary to no principle
of religion. As to the effect which the vote of this House
may prodtioe, I beheve that the willing adoption of !hi.
measure will produce a kindly feeling in Ireland. It has
already produced a great effect there. It has already produced
a great effect here. It has been received in a grateful and a
friendly spirit, corresponding with the spirit in which it has
been proposed.—(Cheers.) I hardly expected that it would
have produced this effect.—( Cheers. ) Ido not believe that the
gratitude which has been expressed by the Boman Catholics in
Ireland has been expressed in the expectation of future gain,
but I believe that the effect produced has been a natural effect,
which a kind and generous policy invariably produces as its ie-
rilt.—( Loud cheers.) Sir. I will not be tempted to refer to
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Edinburgh, and to the taunts and imputations which he
thought proper to indulge in ; but I will rather fol-
low the example of the Noble Lord, and abstain
from everything that can create a feeling of irritation.
I think I could prove from the admissions in the speeches of
the Right Hon. Gentleman to this House—though I do not
mean to say that he has in those speeches committed the
sUghtest violation of principle—though (do not mean to say
he spoke of the measure because of the difference between
9,000/. a-year and 26,0001. • but I could prove from
the speeches of the Right lion. Gectleman, that
he is the last man in the Home wl.o should throw an
imputation upon the present Government.—( Hear, hear.)
Every feeling with regard to what has been said about the in-
consistency on the security of the Government. I totally dis-
regard, for I say they should be, an I they are subservient to
the one feeling which prompts me to tb or this expression, do
not reject this bill.—( Cheers. ) I do not know what the
consequences may be with regard to the kin.lly relations
between England and Ireland, but this I know that
the proposition has been the means of calling forth the most
kindly feelings in the minds of a grateful people. Therefore,
I say, let all parties combine and aid the Government
in ca-rying out this measure.—(Loud cheers.) Take
what course you please in regard to the Government
but I say let not your indignation fall upon the measure, but on
those who have brought it forward.—( Ilear,l hear.) I shall
say no more about it tow on that point; but I must
remind the Howe -that it is such a measure, and is now
in such a state as will render it imp.iss:ble to
withdrax it without creating suspicion, and inflicting a deep
wound on the feelings of the Irish people.---( Hear, hear ) I
do not press the measure because is is competent for me to do
so, but because I believe it to be a wise, and a just, and an
equitable measure.—(Cheers.) I say also. recollect that
We are responsible for the peace of Irelam'. We must break
up the formidable confederacy that exists there against the Go-
vernment ; but I do not believe that we can break it by force,
I believe that with respecto the maintenance of the Union and
the Established Church, you can do much to break up that
confederacy by acting towards the Irish people in a spirit of
kindness, and of forbearance and of generosity, and I believe it
is essential that we should do so in order to carry on the Go-
vernment, and to preserve the peace and union of the two
countries —(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I gave notice of the in-
tention of the Government to bring on this measure
last session of Parliament without the slightest reference to
-circumstances that have since taken place. But upon the day
upon which I gave notice of our intention to bring :it on, our
attention was called by the Noble Lord opposite to
another matter of great import ance.—( Hear. ) The
Noble Lord. called our attention to a rather ominous
circumstance ; and there certainly did appear some reason for
it, for a cloud appeared in the western horizon, small indeed at
first, but threatening in its position and aspect.__( Hear.)
The Hon. Member for Canterbury has said that it is not irn •
probable that the time is at hand when this country
may be called upon to summon all its energies in a ease of war.
I heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman with great satis•
faction, for the eloquence and resmrces which it displayed.—
( Hear, hear.) I must also say, that whilst I differ altogether
from the views of my Noble Friend the Member for Newark,
respecting the conduct of the S'adtholder of Holland, I could
not hear without great satisfac' ion his speech, and especially that
portion of it which related to our future prospects, asindi-
cated in this debate. Sir, I remember having told
my Noble Friend that his first essay on that subject was an
indication of future greatness, and he has now verified my pre-
diction. Sir, in the course of this debate it has been sup-
posed that an occasion might. arise when all the energies of the
country should be called forth in our defence. May God
forbid that so great an evil may fall upon u=.—(Loud cheers. )
May God forbid so great an evil may fall upon the world as
my Hon. Friend has shadowed forth, in his powerful speech.
—(Cheers.) But whatever may be the result of this debate
—to whatever hands the destinies of this country
may be committed, I shall take my place by the side
of my successors, and shall give them every
support in my power to this just and honourable cause.
—(Cheers) If the calamity of war should befal us, it is
nay earnest hope that when it occurs it will find the people of
this empire united in loyalty to the throne, in mutual confi-
dence, and in a love of those institutions from which
they derive the highest benefits.—( Tremendous cheering.)
It is my earnest prayer that the result of our measures will be
so to unite the people of this realm, as to ensure the triumph
of a just cause.—( The Bight Hon. Baronet sat down amidst
loud and continued cheering.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it.............
Majority
On our entering the gallery, we found
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moving
that on Monday the House do resolve itself into a Committee
on the Bill.

\~

intended it should be, on political economy. Abuse of the
Whigs was his alpha and omega The Sheriff declared the-
slow of hands to be in favour of Mr. M'Crae. Messrs.-It-4w
Anil Dunlop then demanded a poll, but Mr. MCrae decliAed
to go to the poll.
The Sheriff' fixed Thursday for taking the poll, wllsicli,was
to commenceat eight o'clock, and end at four.

COURT CIRCULAR. V"; - -
The Queen, accompanied by the Princess Royal, 'a
tended by the Lady in WaitinL, took an airing Test VaS.NII
afternoon in an open carriage and four. Colonel Arhut
Equerry in Waiting, was in attendance on horseback.
His Royal flightless Prince Albert rode out on horseback
yesterday morning, attended by Colonel Bonverie. In the
afternoon his Royal Highness presided at a meeting of the
Commissioners for promoting and encouraging the Fine Arts
in the rebuilding the Palace of Westminster.
The meeting was held in one of the Committee•rooms of
the House of Commons. l'rince Albert arrived at a quarter
before three o'clock, attended by Colonel Bouverie.
The Commissioners present. were Lord Ashburton, Lord
Colborne, the Right Hon. the Speaker of the House of Com-
mons, Viscount Mahon, Mr. Gaily Knight, Mr. Benjamin
Hawes, Mr. Wyse, Mr. Samuel Rogers, and Mr. Henry
Hallam.
After the meeting Prince Albert, attended by Mr.,East-
lake, the Secretary to the Commission, and Mr. Barry, the
architect, inspected ditrerent parts of the new Palace.
His Royal Highness took his departure at sie o'clock,
attended by Colonel Bouverie.
Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, Prince Alfred,
anti the Princess Alice were taken airings ycsterd..y in the
royal gardens.
Lord George Lennox and Captain Francis Seymour had
the honour or joining the royal circle at Buckingham Palace,
at dinner yesterday.

Her Royal Ilighnes the Duchess of Kent had a dinner-
party yesterday, of her residence, Clarence House, St.
James's. The company included her Royal Highness the
Grand Duchess Stephanie of !Wen, Guint and Countess
St. Aulaire,!'aunt and Countess Dietrichstew, M. and Mad.
• Van de Weyer, Baron and Baroness Moneorvo, the Che-
valier and Madame Bunsen, Baron and .Baroness Gersdoff,
the Duke of Wellington, the Marquis of Douglas, the Earl -
of Aberdeen, the Earl of Liverpool, Sir Robert and Lady
Peel, Baroness Stromfeder, Count Schreckenstein, Hot.
IVilliam Ashley. Baron holler. Lady Anna Maria Dawson,
the Countess Wratislaw, and ColonefSir George Couper.
The Duchess of Kent had afterwards an evening party.
The. Queen and Prince Albert (attended by the royal suite)
and the Ituval Family were present.
Madame buicken, Madame d'Eiet hal, and Mr. Wilson, at-
tended at Clarence House, and had the honour of l erforming
before the royal and august circle during the evening.
tier Royal highness the Duchess of Kent will have an
evening party 01 Wednesday, the 23d inst. We ate autho•
riscti to state that the company will assemble at Clarence
House, tit...lames's, at half-past nine instead of ten o'clock.
His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambri4ge visited her
Majesty the Queen Du rvagcr yesterday, at Marlborough
House.
Their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cam-
bridge, ami the Hereditary Grand Duke and Fuchesa of
Mecklenburgh Strelitz, attended by Baron Knestbeck and
Mr. Edin9nd Mildinay, honoured the Russian Minister with
v their company at dinner yesterday.
.

. .
A Cabinet Council was held yesterday afternoon, —at the
Foreign-office, at two o'clock.

.. • . ........... . . 176
323
, , _147

The motion was strongly opposed by Sir R. H. Inglis, Mr.
Shaw, Mr Plumptre, and Dlr. Duneomba, who divYted 11:e
/louse on the motion.
For the Motion.,. fi t
Against it
Majority in favour of it
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Three o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
rrlienSDAY, Amt, 17.
The following Bills were presented and read a first time :
Epsom and Dorking Railway.
Eastern Union and Bury St. Edmunds Railway (No. 2).
London, Worcester, and South Staffordshire Railway( Dudley
and Sedgley Branch).

The fifflowing Bills were referred to the Select Committee
on Standing Orders :
London and Norwich Direct Raiimv.
Wells and Dereham Railway.
Hull and Gainsborough Railway.

Sunderland, Durham, and Auckland Union Railway,—
Petition for Bill; referred to the Select Committee on lseti.
tions for Private Bills.

Standing Orders Committee,—Resolutions reported ;
1. " That, in the case of the Surrey Iron Ilrilway Com,
pany (Dissolving) petition, the Standing Orders ought not
to be dispensed with.

2. " That, in the case of the Liverpool Docks Bill Amerd •
meat on consideration of report, the amendment is of such a
nature as not to be adopted by the House."
Report to lie on the table.

NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL OFFICE.
Northumberland Railway,—Committee on Bill, Tuesday,
April 29, at twelve.
Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway,—Com-
mittee on Bill, Tuesday, April 29, at twelve.
Bristol and Exeter Railway Branches,—Committee on Bill,
Tuesday, April 29, at twelve.
London and York Railway,—Committee on Bill, Monday,
April 28, at twelve.
Coventry, Bedworth, and Nuneaton Railway,—Second
reading, Monday, April 21.
Direct London and Portsmouth Railway,—Second read-
ing Monday, April 21.
Northumberland Railway,—Second reading, Monday,
April 21.
Sunderland, Durham, and Auckland I7nion
Committee on petition, Monday. April 28.
Portarlington and Tullamore Railway,—Committee on
petition, Monday, April 28.
Chester and Holyhead Railway (Mold Branch and Purchase
of Chester and Birkenhead Railway),—Second reading,
Monday, April 21.
Southampton and Dorchester Railway,—Second reading,
Monday, April 21.
Dunstable and London and Birmingham Railway,—Second
reading, Monday, April 21.,
Wilts, Somerset, Ind Weymouth Railway,—Second read-
ing, Monday, April. 21.
Lynn and Dereham Railway,—Second reading, Monday,
April 21. _

St. Ives Junction Railway,—Second reading, Monday,
April2l.
__
__

Trent Valley Railway,—Committee on Bill, Tuesday,
April 29, at twelve.

Eastern Counties (Hertford and Biggleswade) Railway,—
Committee on Bill, Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Eastern Counties (Ely and Whittlesea) Itailway,—Com-
mittee on Bill, Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Eastern Counties (Cambridge and Huntingdon) Railway,—
Committee on Bill, Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Midland (Swinton to Lincoln) Railway ,—Committee on
Bill, Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Berks and Hants Itailway,—Committee on Bill, Tuesday,
April 29, at twelve.

Midland (Ely to Lincoln) Railway,—Committee on Bill,
Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Manchester and Birmingham (Macclesfield and Ashton
Branch) Railway,—Committee on Bill, Tuesday, April 29, at.
twelve.

Sheffield and Lincolnshire Junction Railway,—Comusittee
on Bill, Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Vailway,—C'onnittee on
Bill, April 28, at twelve.
Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway,—Committee on Bill,
Monday, April 28, at twelve.
Midland Railway Branches,—Committee on Bill, Monday,
April 28, at twelve.

Southampton and Dorchester Railway,—Committee on
Bill, Tuesday, April 29, at twelve.
Charnet Valley Railway,—Committee on Bill, Tuesday,
April 29, at twelve.
Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway,—Committee on
Bill, Tuesday, April 29, at twelve.
Tottenham and Parringdon-street Extension Railway,
Committee on Bill, Monday, April 28, at twelve.

GREENocION.
On Tuesday, the day fixed by the sheriff for the nomina-
tion of a person to supply the place of Mr. Wallace, no Tess
than three candidates appeared, viz. :—Mr. Walter Balm,
Mr. Alexander
lop,Dunlo advocate, and a Mr. M'Crae, a
Chartist preacher. Robert Steele, ship carpenter, pro-
posed Mr. Baine, seconded by Mr. ,James Stuart, merchant.
Mr. Alexander Dunlop was proposed by Mr. IPl!vain,
shoemaker, seconded by Mr. John Gray, merchant. Mr.
John Neilson Nailor proposed Mr. M'Crae, seconded by Mr.
Moodie, cow feeder. Each of the candidates addressed the
meeting. Mr. Baine, who is a churchhta, will support the
Government grant to Maynooth, but a person who is
decidedly hostile to that measure must be had, and there.
ibre Mr. Alexander Dunlop, the great champion- of the Free
Church party, has been brought forward at the
twelfth hour. Both are Whigs—both are free-traders;
although, from the speeches, we are inclined to think that
Mr. Baine will go much further in that direction than Mr.
Dunlop. Probably, it is not unreasonable that such should be
the case, seeing that Mr. Baine has all his life been a gentle-
manoi
,
very largely engaged in mercantile pursuits,
.I'lnle,
the other hand, Mr. Dunlop is a lawyer, and
11
naturally have been turned in a different direction.; studies
Then
comes Mr. M'Crae, whose address was more like a sermon j
from a Baptist preacher than a disquisition, a:: he evidently

Thi meeting broke up at half-past four o'clock. .
A deputation of the Metropolitan Association for impfoviug
the dwellings of the industrious classes had an interview
with the Earl of Dalhousie yesterday, at the oflice of the
Board of Trade. The depntaion c msisted of Lord Ehrhig-
ton, Sir Ralph Howard, Bart., M.P., Mr. .Joseph Toynbee,
Mr. W. A. IVilkinion, Mr. Clibsot, Mr. 1. W. Tottie, and
Mr. Charles Gatlitt

Count de Pollon, Sardinian Minister,
.transacted business
yesterday, at the Foreign-office.
Mr. Francis R. Rives left town yesterday morning to
take passage in the Hibernia, on his return to America,
having resigned the office of Secretary of the United. States
Leo-ation at this Court.
toldnel Barlow, Mr. Mihimay, Mr. Edwards. Mr. Lefevre.
Captain Ward, and Mr. Saiutsbnrv, a deputation on the
subject of the S nithampton !Thcks, had an interview with
Sir George Clerk yesterday, at the Board of Trade.
The C0111111iS:31011 on the Slave Trade Treaties sat • yester-
day at the official residence of Sir Robert Peel, in Downing-
street.

The Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England sat yester-
day, at the Office in Whitehall-place. There were present
the bishops of Bangor, Ely, Hereford, and Lichfield, and
the Eni of Besb3rough.
Dispatches fbr the Governors of the North American colo-
nies, and also for the Governor of South Australia, were sent
off yesterday evening from the Colonial-oflice.

THE WEATHER.—SIIN OFFICE, APRIL 18.
THERMOMETER, Lowest, 35 ; Highest, SU; Noon, 46.
BAROMETER, 30.24.-7—WIND, IsT.E.
Nth-R.—The figures which follow the words "Lowest" and
" Highest" denote the lowest and highest state of the
Thermometer during the preceding twenty-four hours. All
lhe other observations are made at noon.

excited universal attention. Adorned with all the do-
qu.ence of language, and " fresh with the brightness of
youth," they spoke to the heart, yet convinced the un-
derstanding. Lord J. MANNERS, as a stedfaat son or
the Church of England, declared his intention of sup-
porting the Irish Church, not with the narrow aim of
making converts, but in the hope of hastening the
glorious day when the hearts of all should be
attuned with brotherly love, to worship their common
FATTIER, concluding with a truly poetic description of
the blessings of a united empire. While the eloquent
Member for Canterbury seemed, to use his own words
on a former occasion, "to come forward in the
spirit of a younger and freer age" to explode the
narrow views of too many politicians. Bringing
the experience of past history to enlighten the deeds
of the present, appealing not to established rules, but
to the principle of reason inherent in the
heart, his conclusions were unanswerable, his
arguments decisive. Amid the weary monotony
and never-ending repetitions which pervade so many
modern debates, there is a charm in natural eloquence,
in the unstudied expression of an ardent enthusiasm; but
in the speech in question there is something more than
eloquence—something higher than expression—there is
originality ofthought, the indication ofa mind eager in the
pursuit of truth, and able to comprehend it—above all
breathing the Christian spirit of toleration, which he has
so beautifully described in his recent work—" Ever think
good of others—Truth is not mine, but multiform,
and Benevolence is the discipline of Truth."
After such discourses we cannot doubt, if we
ever doubted, that the House of Commons will prove, by
their division, that they are superior alike to prejudice
and party, animated only by the welfare of their country.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM declared on Thursday that " the mea-
sure of conciliation was not full," that this was " only a
step, though an important one, in a system of govern.
ment towards Ireland, which will be far more effi ctual
than state trials or imprisonments. The Tory system
his been tried too long. It has brought Ireland to the
brink of rebellion, and the Conservatives, as well as the
Whigs, find that till they place that country on the
same footing with Great Britain, end remove all real
grievances, there can neither be peace nor security.
This change of policy, we learn with unexpressible de-
light, was announced on Thursday by one of the Ministers
of the Crown, and we accept it as the voice of the
Cabinet. " But allow roe," said Sir J. GRAHAM, "to tell
the lion. and Learned Recorder for Dublin, that if he
thinks the day when Protestant ascendancy could be
maintained in Ireland is not yet passed, he is mistaken.
The day is passed, and I will not be one to attempt to
govern Ireland upon his principles." The Established
Church—the great incubus of that country—must
undergo a complete revision. Lord STANLEY has already
tried his hand at the work, but he is too bigoted to
his High Church principles to do justice to such
a crying evil. Time, however, which has effected
so many wonders, will also destroy this anomaly, and
we shall no longer hear of " a Church without a people,
and * people without a Church." The Home Secre-
tary also `made ample amends for a most uncalled-
for and most injurious expression some years since, and
we have, therefore, great satisfaction in quoting his ex-
pressions of contrite repentance. "The Member for
Ceifast," said he, " in common with many other Hon.
Gentlemen who have addressed the House in the tours
of this debate, has referred to a particular exprese
:ion I used in my place in Parliament—not when in
opposition, but since I have assumed office. It was used
by me in 1842, during the discussion on the Arms' Bill,
alai certainly upon that occasion I did make use of the
expression which has been attributed to me, but really
I do not think it altogether fair that I should be taunted
now with having used it, seeing that it was sufficiently
explained in this House soon after it escaped my lips. The
expression I used was ' that concession towards Ireland
had already reached its utmost limits.' I have said that
the expression was explained. I will do more, I admit
that expression, and I regret having used it. I say more,
that where the feelings and interests of a nation are con-
cerned an intemperate or ungarded' expression on the
part of a Minister is a serious offence. I say lam sorry
for having used it. I deeply regret it, and I can only
say that upon my conscience, and from the
bottom of my heart, my attachment to Ireland
was better than my word." If the Members of
the House should hesitate, under fear of their consti-
tuents, they will find their mistake—those very consti-
tuents will be the first to turn against them. Eng-
lishmen may be swayed for a moment by cunning repre-
sentations, but in their hearts they applaud every act of
principle and justice.

The absorbing interest of the debate on the Dlaynooth
Grant has probably operated; to withdraw, for a time,
the attention of the public from other topics of domestic
interest, to which it might be well that the most vigi-
lant attention should be incessantly directed. Among
these, the intended descent of the Premier on the small
note circulation of bcotland, the enormous extent of
scrip transactions, or in other words, gambling specula-
tions in shares of British and Foreign railway projects,
but more especially the latter ;—and the inter-
esting but fearful relation in which both these
matters stand to the condition and tendencies
of our monetary system, as this is controlled
by the Act of last session—are among the most
important.

Gambling speculations in shares are a species of
chronic malady to which the moral habit of JoHN Bum.
appears peculiarly susceptible. It is said that there is
a pleasure in madness which none but mad men know.
JOHN BULL seems to have detected a gratification in the 1
process of being fleeced, which one should think victims
could never feel, were it not that the operation is abso-
lutely courted by them in every successive year, in every
month of each year, every week of each month, and
every day of each week. The history:of our money market,
not less than that of a certain class of our light
literature, is the history of bubbles. There is no end to
he " Bubbles of the Day ;" but those in Middlesex and
Lancashire are of a much less salutary kind than those
which invigorate the constitution at Brunnens or in
Nassau. Share bubbles, from the date of their first grand
burst in the shape of the South Sea project, in 1721, to
the scarcely less colossal aggregate of their periodical ex-
plosions of the present day, though this be formed ofan infi-
nite number of smaller globules, seem to be an irresietable
fascination for English gullibility. Neither the expe-
rience of the last century, nor its memorable renewal, so
recently as in 1825—neither the follies of 1837, nor the
rashness of 1 83 8, which accepted the bonds of Pennsyl-
vania, or Maine, or Massachussetts, for bond fide secu-
rities, and dealt with American backwood railroads,
canal duck and bank shares, as if they were
obligations issued by honest men with honest in-
tentions, as well as means of discharging them ; are
supposed to have any application in 1845. Twenty
years ago Englishmen, after lavishing millions in irre-
trievable loans to newly-constituted States, in South
America and elsewhere, sunk a capital, in mining pro-
jects and speculations in Mexico, Brazils, &c., more than
equal to the purchase of the fee-simple of those mines,
had they been in full and productive working, even ac-
cording to the estimated returns, instead of their golden
returns and yield of silver, existing only in the romance
of highly-coloured prospectuses and headings of moon-
shine, but showy, share lists. The Royal Exchange at
London is a locality where the disasters and catastro-
phea of those fatal years will long be recalled without
the aid of any City Remembrancer. And yet so true is
the old adage which declares to :be nobody's business
that which is everybody's, that for any practical pur-
poses of warning or restraint those memorable years are
of no more note than the red letter reminiscences of an
old almanack. To our judgment, however, there are
" signs of the times " now manifesting themselves which
cannot be mistaken. The convulsion of 1825 must
soon be felt: again if men will abandon them-
selves to the same fever of delirious specula-
tion now which produced them then. From the
doors of the Board of Trade, at Whitehall, to the por-
tals of the Royal Exchange, and the Exchanges of
Manchester, Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow, and every
other manufacturing or commercial emporium in the
United Kingdom, the fluctuations, the hopes and fears
the operations for
.rises and for falls, are communicated
with the rapidity and certainty of the instructions from
station to station, in our great railroads, by galvanic
telegraph. Endless dealings, of boundless-extent, in the
scrip" of new railway undertakings, have hitherto pro •
ceeded without any notable check, owing to the favour
in which these investments at present stand with the
public, and because the lines, not being yet in work,
have shown nothing in the shape of appalling contrast
between the anticipated and realised returns. But
when we find that the readiness with which share lists
of projected foreign lines can be filled up in Lcndon
alone even, and the promptitude with which the stipu-
lated deposits are paid up (to any direction or proprie-
tary, or any representative of them, accredited or not,
without any previous investigation into the responsibility
and character of the parties appearing on the list of
their directors, much less into the feasibility and merits
of the schemes themselves)—when we find that these
circumstances, far from putting a stop to this mania,
tend to encourage it, we cannot help directing attention
to them ietvailtaabtlaegecoonfsequences of that re-action which
oimmemsedoojanteerlyor later. Between the abandonment
of some lines that never will be matured into the first or
must
othersc
' raudPecitcyatoef
and ability
after practical tical
it .
a utdh et
hu failure
ban
bank-
ruptcy
consideration a third
iil 'd
andlarger knowledge, Leal a:: commenceddge o r scientific without
en-
gineering
i or unsupported by the capricious

THEATRE ROYAL, HAYMARKET.
LESSEE, MR. B. WEBSTER.
THIS EVENING
Will be repeated a New and Original Comedy, entitled THE
SHERIFF OF THE COUNTY. Principal Characters by Messrs.
W. Farren, Strickland, Buckstone, Webster, Mrs. Glover, Mrs. W.
Clifford, Mrs. Hamby, Miss Julia Bennett, &c.
After which, a New Grand Classical Extravaganza, entitled THE
GOLDEN FLEECE. Principal Characters by Messrs. C. Mathews,
J. Bland, Madame Vestris, and Miss I'. Horton.
To conclude with YOUNG ENGLAND. Major Martinet, Mr.
Strickland ; Mr. John James Pooley, Mr. Buckstone ; Mrs. Pooley,
Mrs. llumby ; Mrs. Smiler, Mrs. Stanley

• THEATRE ROYAL, ADELPLII.
UNDER THE DIRECTION OF MADAME CELESTF.
THIS EVENING _ _

Will _ be repeated a New and Original Drama, entitled THE
GREEN 13 -SHES ; or, A Hundred Years Ago. Connor O'Kennedy,
Mr. Selby ; George, Mr. Hudson : Wild Murtogh, Mr. 0. Smith ;
Muster Grinnidge, Mr. Wright; Jack Gong, Mr. Paul Bedford;
Geraldine, Mrs. Yates ; Nelly O'Neill, Mrs. Fitzwilliara ;
111adame Celeste.
After which, will be repeated a New Grand Empirical Exposition,
called ST. GEORGE AND THE DRAGON. Principal Characters
by Messr.s, Paul Bedford, Wright, John Saunders Selby; Miss
Woo) Jar, Miss Bra,.,ks, and 3lis.s E. Chaplin.
To conclude with MOTHER AND CHILD ARE DOING WELL
Mr. siitw9hy, Mr. Lambert ; Lieutenant O'Scupper, R.N., Mr. Paul
Bedford; Mr. Felix Fluffy, Mr. Wright ; Emily, Miss Fortescue.

PRINCESS'S THEATRE, OXFORD-STREET.
LEJSEE, KR. J. M. MADDOX.
THIS EVENING,
Wili be verfrined Sheridan Knowlea' Play of THE HUNCH-
BACK. Master Waiter, Mr. Wallack ; Sir Thomas Clifford, Mr.
Leigh Murray ; Lord Tinsel, Mr. W. Lacy ; Modus, Mr. Compton ;
Julia, Miss Cushman ; ilelen, Mrs. Stirling.
Mr. SA NDSand his INFANT BROT LIE it MAURICE, will appear
in their Pleasing and Wonderful Entertainment, DE SALON,
FREAKS OF FANCY.
To be collowcd by a New Farce, called WHO'S THE PAPA ?
To conclude with GONE TO TEXAS. Mr. Swallington, Mr.
Waiter Lacey.

THEATRE ROYAL, LYCEUM.
UNDER THE MANAGEMENT OF MRS. KEELEY.
Unparalleled .ueceas of the New Grand Burlesque—lrreststible
Fun in " On Duty."
TIIIS EVENING

Will be repeated a New Original Drama, to he called ON DUTY.
Principal Characters lay Messrs. F. Vining, F. Mathews, and Keeley ;
Miss Villars, Mrs. Woollidge, and 3llss Grove.
After which, THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE. Principal
Characters by Messrs. F. Matthews, F. Collier, and Turner ;
Its Grove, and Mrs. Keeley.
To be followed by a Burlesque of English History, Pourtraying
Olden Ideas and Modern Notions—lnvested with all the Pomp and
Display of Scene—Painters engaged expressly—Costtunes according
to Fancy—Mechanism, Ballet, Music, and Novel Stage Arrange-
menta—to be called. WHITTINGTON" AND HIS CAT I Dick
Whittington, Mrs. Keeley; Maley Moloch, the Lien Tamer of the
Dfii.ert, Mr. Keeley ; the Cat, Mr. Collier, supported by Messrs.
F. Matthews, and Wigan ; Miss Fairbroilicr, and Mies Grove.
•ro coneinde w:th the New Farce of A MODEL OF A WIFE. In
which Messrs. A. Wigan, Turner, and Meadows, Mrs. WoolUdge,
stud Fairbrother will perform.
The Wax-office la open daily, under the direction of Mr. Grogan
!coin Ten till Four.

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, APRIL 19, 1845.

governments, or overwhelmed by the bad faith of the
private capitalists, whose promised sanction and support
have floated them int. acceptance and credit with the Bri-
tish public ; what will be, in all probability, the event of
the investments now so prodigally, recklessly, arld
mischievously making by subjects of this country, in
half a hundred crude, visionary, or abortive railway
projects for Spain, Germany, Sweden, Russia, Italy, and
Sardinia ? Let us imagine, if we can, the desolation
and dismay that the panic of these out-posts of
our railway speculators, when any of them are
beaten in by partial or absolute failures, and
extinctions, will roll back upon the main body of rail-
way undertakers here ! Like the defeated van of an
army, its retreat will demoralise the centre, and a total
discomfiture must ensue. Loss of capital to a specific
and vast extent, in worthless enterprises, will be fol-
lowed by its partial withdrawal from th¢ most substantial
ones, and a general decay of confidence more expensive
and terrible in the ruin it will generate than the abso-
lute sacrifice of the money investments thrice told.
This convulsion in one large branch of our money ap-
propriations will have for its sequence a crisis pervading
every other, and shaking all banking and mercantile
stability throughout the land to its very centre. We
talk now, coinplacently, of the inexhaustible capacity
of capital:to reproduce itself ; but at least it is essential to
this character that it should have a representative. Now,
when iu addition to the demands for gold, occasioned by
domestic share or dividend holders, bent on realising,at all
hazards, before they incur yet greater sacrifices by the
fall of their scrip or shares in the market, we have to
meet the drain of all the foreign lines for deposits, calls,
wages, 843., WHERE will be their representative of capi-
tal ? Let Sir RunEnT PEEL, the Currency doctors, and
Echo—answer " where." A hundred millions to be
met—the securities to meet them depreciated 50 per
cent., and the standard currency in which even that de-
preciated value is to be realised diminished 50 per cent.
by" a rush for gold l" Will not such prospects as these
teach our railway gamesters to be abstinent in time ?
They have incurred liabilities gigantic enough already.
Every onward step is taken in madness, and must lead
to ruin.

Madrid journals of the 10th have been received. On
that day the budget of the Minister of Foreign Affairs
was adopted, when MARTINEZ DE LA ROSA took that
opportunity of stating that a treaty bad been entered
into with Venezuela, and another with Chili was in pro-
gress. He also stated that an agent was to be sent to
Fernando Po, and two others to Sierra Leone, and that
the frigate La Perla, and a smaller ship of war, are to
proceed to the River Plate, in order to protect the Spa-
nish subjects in that quarter. .

'down to the lowest principality of Italy, all rush into the
English market to claim our assistance, and to relieve us of
our gold. And who can doubt after the success of a Spanish
scheme, but that all others brought into the market will as
readily find dupes willing to exchange their sterling gold for
foreign promissory notes, equally as valuable as. foreign
bonds. At the best no Continental railway can yield
a tithe of that security offered by our own, for the
first outbreak, whenever it occurs, the railways will
be entirely broken up, or otherwise British sub-
jects will be violently dispossessed of their property in them.
Let the people but know the value of this mode of convey-
ance for troops, and they will soon put a stop to it. We par-
take largely in the benefits of many of these railways, but
unless some limitation is put to it, we fear we shall be paying
much too dear for the whistle."

We may add to these remarks our own opinion—viz., that
no foreign railway should be touched unless having as its
promoters the names of leading men. Where we find
the Masterman's, Laffitte's, Gladstone's, Salomen's, or
Patterson's, there can be no danger of an honourable
discharge of the interest confided by Shareholders
to their Directors, and we are only sorry to find
the public so "gullible," for no other term conies
so " home," in conveying the extent of their folly,
as to give high premiums for new foreign lines,
where a disrepotable system of partial and enormous allot-
ments to a few " friends at court," render the shares scarce
in the market for a time, just to put money, in the shape
of premiums, into the pockets of a few schemers
and projectors. Sonic of the most bond fide and promising
French Railways have been brought out in direct contrast to
this nefarious system, and the most liberal allotments have
been made. From this cause, until the Government conces-
sion is obtained, they may not rule at very high premiums,
btit the reward of patience is ultimately obtained, and there
is the satisfaction of all having been fairly and openly con
ducted.
The Funds have been firm again to-day, and there is a
moderate business doing. Consols have been 99% % for
Money, and 99%. buyers and sellers alternately, fir the
Account. Exchequer-bills are firmer, at 58s. to 60s. pre-
mium. Bank Stock has been firm at 209% to 2101/2. The
New Three-and-a-Quarter per Cents. have been 101% to
101y3, and the Three per Cents., 984 to 98%.
The Foreign Securities have been very quiet. Spanish
Five per Cents. have been up to 31 and 31,A ; and the Three
per Cents. have been called 41 to 14. Mexican have touched
37% and 38. Portuguese Converted are 66% to 67%.
Dutch Two• and-a-Half per Cents. have been 63%.
In Shares an extensive business continues to be done.
London and York are higher, and Direct Northern lower.
In French Shares there is a good deal doing.
ONE CLOSING
PRICES OF BRITISH FUNDS. O'CLOCK. PRICES
Bank Stock ..... ...

BOURSE, APRIL 10.-Three per Cents., 35i at sixty
days ; Five per Cents., 25 11-16 cash, 26 3-1 G at
sixty days ; Passive Debt, 8i cash, 9 at sixty days ;
Exchange on London, 37i.
_

3 per Cent. Reduced
3 per Cent. Consols
New 314 per Cents IOIAVA , 101 'V
, s
Long Annuities to expireJan.lB6o 11 7-161/2 111%2
; Ditto 30 years, Oct. 10, 1859
Ditto 30 years, Jan. 5, 1860
India Bonds, 1,0001..
Ditto under 1,000/.
South Sea Stock

Ditto Old Annuities
,
Consols for Account....
Exchequer Bills, 1,00 W., I%d.
Ditto 5001. .
Ditto Small ... GO 58 pm. 58

ONE CLOSING
PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS. O'CLOCK. PRICES.
Buenos Ayres Bonds, 6 per Cent 4314
1 iColumbian Bonds, ex Venezuela 16
Mexican, 5 per Cent. 1837 —
Ditto, Account 37% 38 38%
Ditto. Deferred 17% 18% 17% 181/2
Portuguese Bonds, 5 per Cent
Ditto, Converted 663/ 67% 67%
Ditto. Account ... ..... ...... 674% 67
Spanish 5 per Cent. 1840.
Ditto, Account 314, 314
Ditto, Coupons — 28%
Ditto, Passive
Ditto, Deferred iB% 18%
Ditto 3 per Cent. ... .. —
Ditto Account
i :Belgian Bonds, 4% per Cent — 101%
Dutch, 2% per Cent
Ditto, 4 per Cent., Certific 973/i ;'4l 973
Ditto Bonds — 97
PRICES OF
RAILWAY SHARES PAID. AT ONE O'CLOCK. PRICES.
CLOSING

The French Chamber of Deputies is still engaged in
the discussion of the Savings' Banks Bill. Two amend-
ments had been proposed—one by M. DE LANGUNAIS,
to reduce the interest from four to throe and a half per
cent., and the other by M. GARNIER PAGES, fixing at
four per cent. the interest on sums not exceeding 1,5001'.,
and three per cent. for larger deposits. The Minister of
Finance objected to both propositions, as they went too
far. A reduction was required, but not to such an ex-
tent. This proposition, he considered, calculated for
present circumstances, and in accordance also with the
policy pursued by England. In that country, it was even
more important than in France to favour the extension
of savings' banks, for it was altogether the part of the
Government to interest the working classes in habits of
order, and in the defence of the principles of Conserva-
tism. Yet, notwithstanding the necessity which thus ex-
isted, so strong was the feeling in England of the inconve-
niences that might arise to the State from the development
of the institution, that the Government had not only
lowered the interest, but had fixed the amount of
annual deposit at a sum inferior to that proposed by the
amendment, as well as had established delays for re-
payment infinitely greater than what the Bill under dis-
cussion enacted. M. DE LAIVARTINE thought it a strange
proposition of the Hon. Member (M. G. PAGES) to re-
duce the interest on the property of the poorer classes
to 3 per cent. when, in the very same week, the Cham-
ber was about to vote 411 per cent. to the rich. That
was, in his opinion, an extraordinary anomaly and a
most unjust one. He considered that the poor ought to
be treated at least as well as the rich. Both amend-
ments were rejected. The Chamber of Peers adopted
without discussion the Bill for granting an extraordinary
sum of 1,235,315 f. for the completion of several public
buildings ; that for calling out 80,000 men from
the class of 1845 ; the Bill demanding a sup-
plementary credit of 600,000 f. for the payment
of the military pensions in 1845 ; and eleven local Bills.
On Wednesday the President read six ordonnances,
naming the six following gentlemen to the dignity of
Peers of France :—M. EERTIN DE Vaux, formerly a
Deputy; M. MARTELL, formerly a Deputy ; the Duke
DE TREVISO, member of the Council-General of the
Seine ; Count DE MORNAY, Minister Plenipotentiary ;
Baron General A CHARD ; and M. VICToR Huco.
The accounts from Zurich are to the 13th inst. On
the 12th the Diet adopted the following resolution on
the question of the amnesty, against which the Deputy
for Lucerne protested :

Aberdeea

Armagh, Coleraine, and
Portrush l% 3 2'78 31% 3l/
Birmin and Gloucester. 100
Ditto 14 Shares
Bristol and Exeter
Do. New ... . 2 . .. 81/a 8 9
Caledonian
%
Cambridge and Lincoln 1%
Holyhead. 5 13% 14% . 13:
1/2

Chester and Holyhead 4 ...... - /4
Cliurnet Valley
Coventry, Bedworth, and
Nuneaton
Coventry and Leicester 1% 34%
Cornwall
Direct Northern
I)ublin and Belfast June 2212 ll 1/8 103/4 1114 1114
Dublin, Belfast, and
Coleraine
Dublin and Galway 2l/2.— 5%4 ...... ... 514
Eastern Counties 25 .... 2114 21
Ditto Perpetual, 5 per
Cent, No. 1....51. 13s. 4d
Ditto ditto, N 0.2. l3s. 4d...
Eastern Union l5 .....

Ditto Extension
r 4
Edinburgh and Glasgow 50
Ely and Bedford
Great South. and West.
(Ireland)
Ditto Extension
Great North of England-100 203 201 202%
Ditto New
Ditto New 2 241/2 24 2514
Great Western BO ......189%
Ditto 1/2 Shares 5O 105%
Ditto Fifths
Guildford, Fare'm,Ports. 2% ... .. 634
~e
Harwich - 1 ...... 2%%
Hull and Selby
Ditto Quarter Shares 121/2, 221/g
Do. Half Shares
London and Birminghm (5t0ck)...237 2370
Do. New Thirds
Do. 14 Shares
London and Blackwall. 161. 13s. 4d B%l/234 ... ...... 8%
London and Brighton... 50
London and Croydon, 13/. 15s. 9d. 17% l7
11/i3
London and Greenwich 12/ 15s 441...
_ _

"The Helvetic Diet, wishing to take all necessary measures
for the re-establishment of tranquillity in the country, and to
prevent new troubles, and considering that it will be the more
easy to attain this object in proportion as the high state of
Lucerne may, after the civil war which has cost the lives of
so many citizens, exercise with moderation its right of
punishment, after having heard the report and the proposi-
tions of the Committee, decrees as follows i—lst. The high
state of Lucerne is earnestly requested, as regards the events
of December, 1844, and April, 1845, to grant an amnesty,
and in the event of condemnation to death having been pro-
nounced, not to carry them into execution. 2. The Federal
Commissioners shall communicate the present decree to the
authorities of the canton of Lucerne, and personally urge its
execution."

London and S. Western 41/6210d 8134 82
Do. New
London and York
Lynn and Denham 1
Lynn and Ely 2l(_ 7%
Manchester and Leeds... 73 l5O 147 —
Midland 100 .1581/ 159 158... 159
Do. New - 191
Midland,Birm.,Derby 100 -118
.
Newcastle and Darling-
ton Junction ... 25 ...... 51
Newcastle and Berwick 11/ —
Newry and Enniskillen. 212
Newark and SW-field ... 111,4...... 61i% ...... 6li %. • .... •.• •• • 6 6
North British
Do. New
Northern and Eastern... 45
North Kent
North Wales
Norwich and. Brandon... 10
Do., New ... ..... ..... 1
Richmond and West End

junction
Rugby, Worstr, & Mug 1
Scottish Central
2 7%
.'.. sottish Midland ll,x ... 4% 5 5
Shrews., Wolverhamp.,
Dudley, and Birm 2IA. . . 5 43/1...
South Devon l5

4%
27:1i
42!4
101
84
20