The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

nrcessary securities, !Mould, by refusing to do to, only lead
to disastrous consequences. He dwelt upon the numerical
force of the people, and the nobility, priesthood, gentry,
and peasantry being united as one man upon the question.
He asked would such a mode stifle their complaints, or
that of the Catholic Association and its leaders, under
whose guidance the people were compelled to place them-
selves—for all which reasons it was the duty of the Legis-
lature themselves to interfere.—[At this period the tumult
became so excessive that scarcely a word uttered by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman could be heard.]—He en-
tered into a history of the different circumstances and ap-
pellations under which tke Catholic Association ap-
peared, and contended, notwithstanding all that had
been asserted respecting its illegallity, that if it
were the illegal body which it was sought •to make
it appear, the Law Officers of the Crown, and the Exe.
cutive Government of Ireland, ought to be held respon-
sible for not having suppressed it long before now ; yet not
a single step had been ,taken by them for that purpose.—
All agreed it was a monstrous political anomaly, but he
saw a simple and easy mode of getting rid of it; namely,
by making the concessions now required at the hands of
the Legislature. An Hon. Member had told them, and
most truly, that at the Revolution an intimate union ex-
isted between the Established Church and the State in this
country. There could be no doubt of the existence of
that connexion, and his argument was, that concession to
the Catholics had the direct tendency of dissolving that
union ; his argument, or rather his metaphor, was, that
it severed the link by which Church and State were united.
Now lie (Mr. W.) would endeavour to answer that argu-
ment, carrying on metaphor a little further, and say,
though it might remove a link it did no more than shorten
the chain, it had no tendency to weaken it—it would be as
strong as ever.—(Loud cries of "Question," and the
utmost impatience manifested in every part of the House.)
—He then went on to say, that if the penal laws were
not founded in justice, reason, or sound policy, the Ca-
tholics had a right to call for their repeal. He intreated
the House not to adopt proceedings affecting the body at
large,, which could only be justified by reference to the
conduct, speeches, and writings, of a few individuals...—
(" Question, question.")
Mr. BUTLER CLARKE came into his place in Parlia-
ment completely unshackled, and perfectly free from the
imputation which an Hon. Member sought to cast upon
some who had taken a part in the present debate, or were
expected to vote in favour of the Hen. Baronet's motion—
namely, that they had been sent by the Association to
speak its sentiments, and forwardlits views. He, Mr. B.
Clarke) was as free from any influence of that nature as
any man could possibly be. He came then perfectly inde-
pendent, and would give a conscientious vote. He had
heard it alleged that the Catholics were unwilling to pay
their tithes ; but he thought that the proceedings under
the Commutation Act completely falsified that assertion ;
for there was no place in which the people could avail them-
selves of the provisions of that Act that they did not en-
deavour to do so.

Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON rose amid loud cries of
" Question—withdraw—go on—Chair, Chair—order."
The Right Hon. Member remained some time standing
before he succeeded in obtaining a hearing, and previous
to order having been restored, an Hon. Member from one
of the hack benches of the Opposition side, attempted to
move the question of adjournment.
The SPEAKER said, the Hon. Member is not aware
that a Right Hon. Gentleman is in possession of the House.
Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON then proceeded to address
the House, and after alluding to his reasons for not having
risen at an earlier period of the debate, and compliment-
ing his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Grant) on the able
and eloquent speech with which he had opened the discus -
sion on that evening, the Right Hon. Secretary spoke as
follows :—Sir, in giving my vote upon this occasion, I
wish to put on record in as brief and succinct a manner as
possible, my view and feelings of the subject now so fre-
quently discussed in this House. Having had on many
former occasions opportunities of expressing my sentiments
on this great question, and having been now a member of
this House during all the long and frequent discussions
on the Catholic Claims, that have taken place since the
period of the Union with Ireland, and not being one of
those buds of genius, or those young germs of liberality, to
whom the Right Hon. and Leerned Gentleman (the At-
torney-General) gave so pressing an invitation to retire
from the debate, and go amuse themselves with a perusal
of all the votes and journals of the House, I feel myself ra-
ther called upon to state my confirmed opinions on the
subject. In applying myself generally to a consideration
of the question—a question which lam free to say I coa-
sider entirely exhausted, I must admit the perfect impos
sibility by any strength of argument, or force of illustra-
tion derived from the stores of history, or from the con-
temporaneous example of other states, to witness anything
like novelty upon it. With respect to those topics which
have been brought forward, and, as I think, unfortunately
brought forward, by the supporters of the Catholic claims
—I mean, Sir, the Treaty of Limerick, and the transac-
tions represented to have occurred about the period of the
Union—with respect to these topics it is my intention to
say little or nothing. In respect to the Treaty of Lime-
rick,' I almost entirely concur with what has fallen from
the Hon. and Learned the Solicitor-General, and my
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) upon the subject. Dit-
Pring entirely, as I do, from their general view of this
question—anxious as I feel for the success of the motion
brought forward by the Hon. Baronet, I still wish he had
rested his chance of success upon more cogent arguments,
and on higher grounds, than those afforded by what I must
call, the forced construction of a long-gone-by, and, to the
present case, inapplicable contract. This is all I have to
offer upon this point, except that in reference to the Treaty
itself the character of public men by whom it was framed,
and the reputation of one of our greatest Moaarchs,
I do beg and trust, that those who advocate the
Catholic Claims may see the propriety of follow-
ing the example of my Honourable Friend, and pledge
themselves never again to recur to it. Sir, lam sure I should
not be the only one in this House who would view the
Roman Catholic Question with cornparatiee indifference, if
it were to be looked upon not in reference to the prosperity
of the State, and the exigence of the case in Ireland, but
solely with regard to this Treaty. In referring to the Le-
gislative Union between this country and Ireland, I think
myself warranted in expressing my personal conviction and
confidence, that the Catholics received no pledge, promise,
or assurance, on the part of Mr. Pitt, with respect to the
settlement of the question in which they are interested.—
As the Right Hon. Member for Kerry truly stated, Mr.
Pitt was in office at the time of these negociatione ; I, too,
was then in office; it is true, in an inferior situation, but
in a situation which brought the frequently in immediate
.private and confidential communication with Mr. Pitt and
Mr. Dundas. And here I shall refer to the Right Hon.
Member for Kerry's explanation, made in consequence of
an observation that fell from my Right Hon. Friend with
regard to the Right Hon. Gentleman's continuance in office
subsequent to the retirement of Mr. Pitt. In doing so, I
am perfectly ready to declare, that although having taken a
different course myself on that occasion, and relinquished
()Ice with Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas, I say, I willingly
concur in the propriety of the Right Hon. Gentleman's
coaduct, and can hear him out, if my testimony, be neces-
sary, respecting the wishes of Mr. Pitt and his friends, that
those who were favourable to the Catholics and not in the
Cabinet should continue in office. lam justified in doing
this, because I myself was pressed to remain in office by
Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas, and was distinctly told by
them, in like manner as the Right Hon. Gentleman, that
I should best serve the Catholic Question by not retiring
from office. It was represented that it was only necessary
for the Cabinet Ministers to retire, but that those who held
less prominent and responsible situations would beat con-
sult the final success of that question by retaining office.—
' However, Sir, I retired from the situation which I held
at that time, and I sincerely and solemnly declare that I
world retire now and for ever from place, if by so doing I
could hasten by one month the success of that great ques-
tion. Though, as I have already said, no pledge, promise,
or assurance, was given by Mr. Pitt to the Catholics, I am
aware impressions did go forth that the opinions aed ssuti-
ments of Mr. Pitt were favourable to their claims, /u
making this observation, I particularly refer to the period
shortly preceding the Union, and I believe that the great
body of persons of the most temperate and moderate views,
not only among the Catholics but among the Pro-
testants---these persons, the most strongly attacleel to
the connexion
subsisting between the two countries,
and most anxious for its integrity and maintenance—
I believe, Sir, that these persons were impressed with a
disposition to support the Union, in consequence of the
feeling and impression relative to the sentiments of Mr.
Pitt on this subject. Sir, these impressions bad more or
less weight, I admit, with respect to all the parties who,
in the political and moral struggle that arose in Ireland
upon that question, sided with the English Government.
I speak all this merely from recollection ; but I think I
may repeat it with confidence, when I look at the state of
Ireland, in the interval that elapsed between 1793 and
1799. Seeing that that period includes such events as
the rebellion of 1798, and the concession of the elective
f
the Catholics in 179:3 ; and that in the. inter-
vraalntche to
o'is which I have alltuled, more than one hair-breadth
escape from foreign invasion occurred. Looking at all
these considerations, the then state and possible future con-
dition of that country ; and foreseeing the consequences
that, in the course of years, must ensue from the conces-
sion of the eleetive franchise to the Catholics--viewing all ,