The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

than for him (Lord Normanby) to explain. Allusion had been •
made to his ( Lord Normanby's) conduct in respect to the
offer of the Mastership of the Rolls to . Mr. O'Connell. He
( Lord Normanby) begged to say, that he had never for one
moment regretted making, that offer. The only regret he had
ever experienced in reference to the matter was, that that
Honourable and Learned Member had thought fit to decline
accepting it. He most sincerely thought, that if Mr. O'Con.
nell had accepted that appointment, it would have been one
of the very best things that could possibly have happened for
the prospective prosperity of Ireland. Had he known that
the subject would have been alluded to, he would
have brought down to the House a document in
reference to the subject, being a let ter he had
addressed at the time to the late lamented Mr. Drummond,
and which being found amongst his papers by his widow, had
been kindly forwarded to him a few days back. In that letter
would have been found, in the fullest terms, the reasons on
which he justified the offer that had been made, and the wide
distinction which he had drawn, and ever should draw, between
promoting a strong political partisan to a seat on the criminal
and a seat on the equity bench.—( Hear, hear.) He had to
express to the House the regret of a Noble and Gallant Friend
of his, the Marquis of Anglesea, at sot having it in his power
to address the House upon this subject. The Noble Marquis
had been down on the last evening of the discussion,
and in the early part of the present, with the
intention of addressing the House, and nothing
but the extreme suffering which he was enduring
would have hindered him from so doing. His Noble Friend
had, however, desired him (Lord Normanby) to express his
cordial concurrence in the motion then before the House, and
his approval of those measures of justice and conciliation which
it was the wish of Noble Lords on that side of the House to see
proposed and agreed to by Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Before
he sat down he wished to say one word as to the office of
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. There were persons—good and
sincere friends of Ireland—who were anxious to see the im-
mediate abolition of this office. He confessed that he was
not amongst this class. He certainly looked upon that
office as an anomalous one, but he looked to
its abolition as the conciliating and crowning glory of those re-
medial measures which he still hoped to see enacted for Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear.) But it was his opinion that they began
at the wrong end who wished to remove that, office at present.
On looking back, he could not but admit the great practical
benefit which had arisen from the office. Wheat he turned to
the years which Lord Wellesley had passed there, he could not
do otherwise than recollect with grateful satisfaction how his
Viceroyalty had prepared the public mind for the relaxation
of all those restrictive laws which had subsequently been eb-
tained. And no one could doubt that during the Irish admi-
nistration of his Noble Friend behind him (Earl Fortescue)
that country had made rapid strides in the progress of civili-
sation.—( Hear.) In concluding the remarks he had thought
it his duty to make, he wished he could en-
tertain any doubt as to the vote to which their Lord-
ships would come. As to what would ultimately be
the result of the legislation for Ireland, any one who would
look back to the history of his own times—unless, indeed, there
should be an outbreak or civil war, the ultimate consequences
of which, even to the victor, not only in character, but in every
other respect, could only be conceived with horror—any o'de,
he said, who would look back to the last twenty years could
easily foresee. There must, and there would be, concessions
of a large and a comprehensive character.—( Cheers.) The
question was only one of time.—( Hear.) But these suspicions
might now, as before, be so long postponed by the ob-
stinacy and perverseness of that House and the Government,
that they, as in too many instances, by theirtardiness, would lose
all their grace, and much of their good ; but he felt certain that
concession, and ample, liberal concession, must be the result.—
( Hear, hear.) I say (concluded the Noble Lord) that upon
us, at this, side of the House, devolves the duty to induce the
people of Ireland to have patience, to bear meekly for a little
while, and not to give up hope, for, of the ultimate results we
have, and can have, no doubt; but upon you, and you alone
(pointing to the Treasury Benches), rests the responsibility and
the consequences of delay.—(Cheers. )
Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords—( Cries of " Divide, di-
vi'le")—l shall not detain your Lordship's more than a few
moments.— ( Great uproar and cries of " No, no," " Divide,
divide.") 111 y Lords, I only wish to say one word, one
word to your Lordships on the extraordinary, the very extra-
ordinary position in which we are placed. When a motion
was made the other night for an adjournment of this debate, I
opposed it. I opposed it, my Lords, because I thought it was
not desired by your Lordships, because I thought it unneces-
sary, totally unnecessary, since the debate could have been
easily closed that night. But I was told " No." I was told it
could not be closed, and I was further told that a Noble Lord,
to hear whom 1 would at any time make any sacrifice
whatever, wished to address your Lordships, and there-
fore, my Lords, I withdrew my opposition at once, and
very cheerfully consented to the adjournment. But my Noble
and Learned Friend (Lord Campbell) who moved the adjourn-
ment, who urged the adjournment, to whom I yielded the ad-
journment, and who ought to have opened the debate this even-
ing ; why, that Noble and Learned Lord has not spoken at
, all ; but I don't mean to complain of that—( Shouts of laughter)
I —there is in that no ground of complaint—( Great confusion
1 and peals of laugtiter)—but I merely wished to call your Lord-
ships' attention to the extraordinary position we are
in, and to the fact that the debate might just as well
have been brought to a close on the other evening as on this.
—( Great laughter, amidst which Lord Brougham resumed his
seat on the Woolsack, which he had occupied nearly all the
evening. )
Lord CAMPBELL rose, somewhat excited, and, amidst
great uproar, and loud cries of " Divide."—Nothing, my Lords,
said he, can be more irregular or more improper than the pro-
ceeding just adopted by the Noble and Learned Lord.—
( Laughter.) But, my Lords, there is nothing at all sur-
prising in this—nothing surprising in anything the Noble and
Learned Lord does, for all his proceedings in this House are one
tissue of irregularities.—( Laughter.) I moved the adjourn.
ment, my Lords, because I thought the Noble and Learned
Lord would have addressed you, and it was my intention to
have followed him in the debate.—(Laughter.) I cannot be
very much blamed for supposing that the Noble and Learned
Lord intended to address you, at least once in the course of the
debate—( Great laughter)—for lam sure (and lam under
your Lordships' correction in stating it) that this is the very
first debate, upon any subject whatever, that has taken place in
your Lordships' House, since the Noble and Learned Lord had
the honour of a seat in it, on which he has not
addressed you—(Cheers and laughter)—and I believe it will
be in your Lordships' recollection, as it is in my own, that upon
one occasion the Noble and Learned Lord spoke no less than
seven times.—(Shouts of laughter and great uproar.) What
I thought, too, my Lords, was, that the Noble and Learned
Lord on the Woolsack would have addressed your Lordships, for
there was a most serious charge advanced against the Govern-
ment for their conduct in the recent legal proceedings in
another place, and I naturally thocght he would be
( Hear, heat.) But, my Lords, he has
neither spoken by himself, nor by his counsel.—( Great
anxious to
possible
repel meet
it.—( _ that
cheering and laughter.) He allows judgment to go by what
lawyers call nil dicet. I hope, my Lord., this will be some
excuse for me in your Lordships' eyes, for having moved this
adjournment.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord
says he is not sorry that I have not spoken, and I believe him ;
but he may depend upon it, I will not remain silent, for
whenever he may choose to address your Lordships, he may
rest assured I will follow him—(Laughter)—and will
not fail to remind him of his departure—his entire and extra-
ordinary departure—from those principles, the advocacy and
support of which made him once the pride and glory, nut only
of his own country, but of the world —( Great sensation)—of
those grand principle:, for the triumph of which he once so
nobly battled with friends, whom it seems now to be his sole
aim to oppose.—(Great uproar.)
Lord BROUGHAM ( with ill-stilled passion )—lly Lords,
I have been charged with irregularities. A charge, my
Lords, more grossly untrue—( A burst of laughter)—more
grossly untrue, my Lords—( Continued laughter)—more grossly
unfounded, in point of fact, ihan that charge, it has never hap-
pened to me to hear, in the whole course of my life, even from
the Noble and Learned Lord who has so rashly ventured to ad-
vance it.--( Uproar, and cries of " Divide, divide.") My
Lords, I have a right, a perfect right, to address myself to your
Lordships on this debate now or whenever I like to do so.—
( Laughter.) The rule of Parliament, my Lords, the rule
of both the Houses constituting the Parliament of
this country, and I have sat a longer time—a far
longer time, my Lords, in both of them, than the Noble and
Learned Lord who assumes to know so much more about them
—( Great laughter)—is that every Member has a right to
speak, and I have not spoken in the course of this debate. I
have a right to speak whenever I think proper—either before
the Noble Marquis ( Normanby) rose to reply, or after he had
resumed his seat—for it is by courtesy alone that a Member is
allowed to reply—( Hear, hear)—and now that he has replied,
I have a right to speak to the whole question, if, as I have said,
my Lords, I may think it right or expedient that I should do
so.—(Laughter.) That is my undoubted privilege, my Lords,
and one which no taunts of ignorant—(Great uproar)—which,
I say, no taunts of ignorant new Nembers of Parliament, who
do not know even the A J 3 C of the rules and privileges of this
House—who show a degree of ignorance which I had thought
it impossible for any person to display—no taunts whatever,
especially when used by such persons as these, shall deprive me
of my privileges as a Peer of Parliament.—( Cheers, and loud
laughter.) But, my Lords, I ought perhaps to confess that, in
now a second time addressing your Lordships, I am guilty
of irregularity.—( Shouts of laughter.) But is this an irre-
gularity without excuse, or without example in this House,
my Lords? Is it not the rule—a very wise and useful rule
doubtless, my Lords—(Laughter)—of both Houses of Parliament,
to waive the strict interpretation of their laws if an individual
Member is unexpectedly charged with an offence, and to extend
to him every indulgence and facility for justification ?—( Hear,
hear.) And happy and rejoiced—most happy and most re-
joiced am I to find, my Lords, that for the first time in this
House the vile and false charge that I have changed any prin-
ciples, deserted my early opinions and fallen away from my
friends has been brought fairly forward against me—that those
with whom I have acted as a party man for so many years—to
me with no great advantage that 1 know of—(Laughter)—to
their own great advantage, it may be said also—to whom I was a
faithful, truthful, thoughtful, consistent, and unflinching sup-
porter—( Great uproar) —that because I was compelled to
change my relations with them, when they ceased to hold those
opinions which for so great a length of time we had been ac-
customed to hold in common—as I have again and again had to
demonstrate in their presence, without a shadow of a pretext
for such change of opinion from any one of them—( Great
laughter and slight cheers)—happy am Ito find that this vile
and false charge is promised at last to be distinctly brought
against me. I defy, my Lords, any one of them
to substantiate the slightest change or inconsistency in me—
( Uproar)—and I will give them the opportunity of doing so,
depend upon it, now that they have selected the most powerful,
experienced, judicious, and discreet Lord as the only champion
whom they could call out of their ranks to bring against me.—
( Uproar.) Yes, my Lords, if I can devise the means. and I
think I can do so, I will give to him, their counsel—( A Laugh)
an opportunity to bring his charges against me ; and I will
defy him and them to bring forward any one particular case in
which I changed my opinions, or that I have abandoned any
principle that I have ever once maintained —(Laughter.) The
challenge, my Lord, is a large and comprehensive one, and
the defiance is the same ; but I throw out that defiance, with
the most perfect certainty that in the contest I must pre-
vail.—(Great uproar throughout the Honse.)
Lord CAMPBELL again rose, amid great noise, laughter,
and cries of " Divide," a" Adjourn." He said—The House
need not be alarmed, for I will not detain it one moment.
Whenever my Noble and Learned Friend—(Cries of " Oh,
oh")—for such I will continue to call him, gives me
an opportunity of entering upon these topics when
a proper opportunity is offered me for going into them,
let him be as
o everything that Irsh rink from, the re-
sporisibibtyosfumred I will
aintaini nngo,t refuse,an
proving,dof n
have stated.—( Loud cheers.) It may happen, perhaps, that
some others have changed, but whether he ( Lord Brougham)
or they, is not now the proper time to decide.—( Hear, hear. )
When the opportunity promised by the Noble and Learned
Lord is offered to me, I beg to assure him and the House, that
I certainly will not shrink from going into the question, and
The LORD CHANCELLOR—MY Lords, before your
maintaining the position I have taken up.--(Cheers.)
Lordships proceed to a division, I have one observation to
make.—( Hear, hear.) It has been said that a grave charge
was brought in the course of this debate against the Govern-
ment in respect of certain law proceedings which have been in-
stituted against certain parties in another place. My Lords, I
have never heard such charge made, and, therefore, there is
nothing that I have felt myself called upon to notice in this
discussion. Such charges as were brought by the Noble Mar-
quis (Nermanby) against her Majesty's Government for their
administration of justice in Ireland, I consider were most satis-
factorily answered by ray Noble Friends the President of the