The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-31 00:00:00

POOR-LAWS,

Mr. FERRAND moved for copies of the correspond-
ence between' Mr. Ryder, a men;tber of" the board of.
guardians of Chelsea, and the Poor•law Commissioners.
—Ordered. .
Mr. HUME gave notice that, in Committee upon the
Bank Charter Bill, he should move a clause for the re-
peal of the legal tender clause.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Sir G. CLERii, it was resolved that
the House at its rising adjourn till Monday.
COURTS-MARTIAL.
The Courts-martial Bill lndies) was read a third
(East
time and passed.

INDIAN ARMY,
Mr. HUME called the attention of life bovernthen't to
the indications of a mutinous spirit among the Sepoys of
the Indian army.. He considered it a most alarming symp-
tom, and it was of the greatest importance that the in-
justice that had caused it should not be continued. He
was consoled by the thought that Sir H. Hardinge would
do all in his power to prevent it. , •
TRADE WITH PRUSSIA. _ _

Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice, that on Tuesday
next, he should move for the production of the corres-
pondence relative to the commercial relations between
this country and Prussia.
SUPPLY.

On the motion of Sir G. CLERK, the Order of the
Day for going into Committee of Supply, was read for
the purpose of postponing it.
CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION BILL.

The Roman Catholic Clergy Grants and Conveyances
:reland) Bill was read a second time.
SLAVE TRADE.

On the Report on the Slave Trade Treaties Bill being
brought up,
Captain PECHELL asked what treaties it was the
intention of Government to legislate upon?
Sir G. CLERK said it was only intended by the Bill
to give her Majesty power, by order in Council, to carry
certain provisions of the treaties into effect, till next
session, when they would be embodied in an Act of Par-
liament.

GLASS DUTIES.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the Glass and Vinegar Duties' Bill was

committed pro forma.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
_ _

On the motiOn for reading the Order of the Day for
going into Committee on the .Ecelesiastical Courts Bill,
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from
Brighton against the Bill.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS presented a petition from the Law
Society of Manchester, praying that a clause should be
inserted in the Bill, consolidating the powersof certain
of these courts. . . -

Mr. T. DUSCOMBE rose to Move an instruetion to
the Committee to abolish all Ecclesiastical! Courts, and
to transfer the jurisdiction of those Courts to civil
tribunals. His object'was to take away all jurisdiction
from the Ecclesiastical Courts, and to put an end to the
caprice and injustice that took place there. To effect
this there could be no doubt that the wkole of Doctors'

Commons must bs swept away, and that in its place
proper tribunals must be -appointed to replace the
mummeries and impositions that not only disgraced the
county, but affected the best interests of religion.
He did not believe that 658 gentlemen calling themselves
reasonable men would attempt to bolster up a system so
inconsistent with reason. Ile wishedto see all the doctors

and proctors who infested Doctors' Commons cast out,
and he for one would be prepared to give them all the
compensation they could prove themselves entitled to. In
all the proceedings which had taken place from 1829,
when the Ecclesiastical Commission was appointed, in
all the Bills which had been introduced into Parliament

whether by Whigs or by Tories ; they had but pro-
ceeded from bad to worse till theyhad arrived at the ne

plus ultra of worthlessness in the present matter.—
(Laughter.) He thought that the Learned Civilian
whom he saw opposite (Dr. Nicoll) would be obliged
to sit down in despair in attempting to improve
the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, for he would find that his
materials were so rotten and so corrupt that he would
be the tinker perplexed, who in curing one hole created
two.—(Laughter.) It was true the Bill got rid of some
spiritual jurisdictions and offences, such as tithes,
and defamation and smiting in the church-yard—
(Laughter)—which subjected the offender to the loss of
one ear, and if he had not one he was to be branded on
the cheek with the letter F.—(Laughter.) But that the
health of the souls of her Majesty's subjects
might not be altogether neglected, they left behind
such offences as simony, heresy, brawling, blasphemy,
perjury, drunkenness, incest, adultery, fornication, incon-
tinence, and other evil habits—(Laughter)—over which
the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Court was continued.
The jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts over
Church-rates was continued, though the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners recommended that it should be abolished.
He knew no reason why this jurisdiction should be con-
tinued, except that it occasionally promoted fraud, and that
it brought grist to the mill of the lawyers in Doctors'
Commons. He would give one instance in which the
Rev. Theodore Williams proceeded agiinst Mr. J. Hall,
and upon which a most absurd decision was given by
Dr. Lushington. It seemed 'that there was a meeting
in the vestry for a church-rate, at which the Rev.
Vicar was expected to be present, but he was behind
time, and a motion for adjourning the meeting was car-
ried. He came after this, and no doubt was very angty.
Some dispute took place between him and Mr.
Hall, who said he was a disgrace to his cloth,
for which he was dragged into the Ecclesiastical Court.
The House would be surprised to hear what the costs
were in that case. The first was an item " for the
sours health."—(A laugh.) Gentlemen might laugh, but
the words were pro salute aninice.—(Renewed laughter.)
He supposed that this was something for the soul to
take with it in its travels to 'the other world—a sort of
viaticum. he cuppoc.a..--4Great laughter.) But the fee
had been transferred from the soul to the stomach.
and Peter had been robbed to pay Paul, or rather to
pay Theodore.—(lncreased laughter.) Well, what was
the next charge ? He did not know very well
what the word meant—it was "Fortunate," 3s. 6d.
—(Loud laughter.) He really could not throw any
light upon the subject. He did not know what the item
meant—whether it was fortunate for the clerk, fortunate
must
his
say;
life. that he never read
The judgment was,
so
absurd for the court, or fortunate for the suitors.—(Laughter.)
; he did not ask the
The Right Hon. Baronetopposite perhaps might explain
reasonth e
of
meaning
them,
of
fo these charges
there
was.
n o reason in them, and he
would not insult the Right Hon. Gentleman, by, asking
him to find a reason.—(Laughter.) He must come now
to the
a judgmentdgment
that Mr. James Hall should be excommunicated from the
parish church for one week of seven days.
The judge said that the words used by the
judgment,
d in he
ehis
Rev. Theodore Williams were words of contempt
and that Mr. Hale spoke under provocation when he
said that Mr. Williams was a disgrace to his cloth, and
he would therefore order that 301. should be deducted
from the costs—(Hear, hear)—but even after this de-
duction, Mr. Hale's costs amounted to 1801.—(Hear,
hear.) But what was the punishment upon Mr. Hale,
besides the payment of this money? He was to be
shut out for seven days from the parish church,
into which he would never enter if he had- a
spark of spirit.---(Hear, hear.) Now, let them look
to the class of offences to which the jurisdiction of these
courts extended—drunkenness, idolitary, fornication,
incontinence, and such evil practices—(Great laughter)
—for all of which, any of you (said the Hon. Gentle-
man) may be liable to be cited to the EcclesiastiCal
Courts—(Shouts of laughter)—for all these they were
liable to be called on to do public pennance, and in any
place which the Court might appoint—(the laughter
was so great, that it was quite impossible to catch cor-
rectly the words of the Hon. Gentleman) they
be called upon to do public penance in the church—(Re-
newed laughter)—and to recant—(Laughter.) Yes, he
was serious; they would be obliged to recant.—(Laugh-
ter.) He was not speaking of imaginary things, for in
the district which he had the honour to represent a wo-
man had lately been obliged to do public penance in the
church, because she had spoken, perhaps, too
lightly of the chastity of her sister.—(A laugh.)
The following scene occurred in. St. John's :—Rebecca
Cohen, the Jewess, having imputed to Deborah, her sis-
ter, a total want of chastity,a process was commenced in
the spiritual court of the Bishop of London, and after
about 701. had been run up in fees, Rebecca was allowed
to expiate her offence by going to the church in ser-
vice hours, and then and there, before the church-
wardens, overseers, and ministers, recanting. • The re-
cantation was, in fact, a fraud,: because, instead
of being done publicly in the church; as had
been ordered, the parties were let in and out pri-
vately at the vestry-door, and hundreds of persons who
had heard that this ceremony for the good of Rebecca's
soul was to take place were disappointed.—(Hear, hear.)
Well might the parochial authorities and the ecclesias-
tical courts be ashamed of • such a proceeding , but that
House ought to be more ashamed if it continued its
sanction of courts from which emanated such an amount
of absurdity. What a hardship was it upon the subject
that this individual had to pay 701 for this process. Now,
with regard to the brawling, what had happened to Mr.
Theodore Williams within the last few days ? He had
been brought before the bench of Middlesex magistrates,
for inciting to a breach of the .peace one of his own pa-
rishioners, a respectable freeholder. He certainly did
not do this in the church-yard, but on the highway.
The House would .recollect the language used by
Hall to Williams : let them now compare it
with that used by Williams to Mr. Smith. He
said to him " You a thick-headed fellow," and shook his
fist in the complainant's face. The clergyman then said,
" You are a dirty fellow—you are a shabby fellow—you
are a coward," and he added; "You dare not fight."
On complainant saying, "If I am a coward, I will meet
you in any spot you please ;" the defendant exclaimed,
"What, what, we'll discuss the question, Sir. (A laugh.)
What was the result ? Why that the magistrates in-
flicted the highest fine which they could impose under
the Police Act; namely, 40s. ; so that, in point of fact,
there was one law in the ecclesiastical courts
and another in the civil courts. Whereas 40s.
was the highest fine which could be inflicted in
the one, lea. for costs, and seven days' banishment
from church could be imposed in the other. Well, then,
were all these offences to remain upon the statute book ?
He bad the authority of a Right Rev. Prelate in favour
of his views. A Bill had been introduced into the other
House of Parliament by the ,Bishop of Exeter, for the
purpose of putting down incontinency, fornication, and all
those other evil habits ; proving that these Courts had
neglected their duty and were not adequate to suppress
the immorality of the age. A Bishop might
Thehave better
opportunities of ascertaining the truth than himself.
lion. Member was then proceeding to quote the Bill,
when he was interrupted by
The SPEAKER, who stated that, ' as the Bill
was not before the -House, it could not be cited.
The Ecclesiastical Courts would do well to confine them-
'selves to the affairs of their own courts. He could not
see -why the Court of Assize were not competent to decide
questi9n6 that were usually brought before the Eccle-