The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-30 00:00:00

PROVISION FOR THE CATHOLIC CLERGY.

Mr. CROKER rose, in pursuance of the previous
notice he had given, to move a clause to empower
his Majesty to make provision for the Catholic
Clergy. He felt firmly persuaded that there
was no relation of the Bill of more importance,
and his confidence was increased from the favour-
able manner in which the proposition was re-
ceived when he first mentioned it. In or out of
doors he had heard no objections to the principle;
but some objections in point of time have been
made by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who introduced the measure, and some are enter-
tained by others as to expediency. He com-
pletely differed from both. lie was convinced
this was not only the best time, but the only
time in which it could be provided. As they
were all agreed upon the principle, he should not
detain the House arguing that point, but would
endeavoUr to persuade them that this time was
the best that could be selected. The first ob-
jection of the lion. and Learned Gentleman was
that it should be left to the Government to make
the provision. He should be glad to know what
Government? Would the Parliament surrender
so great and important a proposition to
the Government ? He admitted the time
would come When the Government, and
none was more fit, might regulate the means
of carrying the proposition into effect. But
the policy of the measure should be regulated by
the Parliament, for it would be most unconstitu-
tional, almost impeachable in the .Government,
to take such an important question to their own
decision. And he would ask the House what
would be the state of Ireland if the Govern-
ment held out those hopes, and after the. Bi-
shops had consented to it, that their expecta-
tions should be blasted ? The first step then to
be taken was to obtain the sanction of Parlia-
ment to the principle of the Bill. He could
assure the House he was not such a vain Qaixote
as to propose a measure to the House without
knowing whether it could be carried into effect.
lie bad well, considered the subject, and had
even gone so far as to embody it in a Bill, for
he thought it due to the House first to assure him-
self that the measure he proposed could be car-
ried into execution. The next objection to the
proposition was, that it might endanger the other
Bill. Ile could not conceive how this could
be the case, and he thought this objection came
with rather an ill grace from those Gentlemen who
say they would not attend to the clamours of
Dr. Milner, that they would not wait for the
Ecclesiastical Parliament elsewhere to pronounce
their decisions, that they would take their station,
as all sound statesmen should do, on the vantage
ground of the Constitution, and from that proud

eminence survey the course they had to pur-"
sue, and not be deterred by tlamours of igno-
rant or interested individuals.-7--(Hear, hear,
hear !)—They had been told by the Right Hon.
Gentleman who introduced the Measure in
that memorable speech, every word of which, he
hoped; would be ehgraven on their hearts, that.
this was to be a measure of .final conciliation), to.
put an end to all the tumults that have so long
agitated Ireland ; and now you leave out the
most important part of the whole subject, you
omit from the Bill the very name of those whose
assistance is mainly, if not indispensably, required
to preserve the pacification of the country. lie
would consider the-postponing this measure to
another Session one of the most ridiculous things,
he had almost said one of the greatest blunders,
that ever was committed. After having carried
the Bill through all the stormy waves of prejudice
that dashed against it, and arrived safely in har-
bour, are we to venture it out to sea again ?
(Hear, hear!)—He well knew the delicate
ground he was treading on, but the House should
be reminded that almost all the blood that
streamed from the Penal Code was from the body
of the clergy ; all the Acts that were established
looked with a jealous eye on the clergy, not on
the laity. They had heard, and nothing was,
more true, that without the co-operation of the
clergy, it would be almost impossible to preserve
the tranquillity of the country. Who ever
,supposed that the Duke of Norfolk or the illus-
trious House of Arundell would, if admitted into
Parliament, be dangerous to the State ?—None
certainly. All the bugbears that have been
raised were against the clergy, not against the
laity. He remembered a learned civilian in' that
House (Dr. Duigenan), who was one of the most
determined foes to the measure, say, that if the
Catholics obtained emancipation, the Clergy
would raise their old cry about restoring their
tithes and their ancient hierarchy ; and surely
the best way to prevent such an occurrence, or
even the possibility of it, would be to provide
them a suitable maintenance. Whatever provi-
sion is made, it should be liberal, sufficiently so
to support them respectably, but not so much so
as to break off their dependence on their flocks.
His object for the present was to get the House
to recognize the principle; for which reason he
should move—" That a Commission be appointed,
under the superintendence of the Lotd Lieute-
nant, to examine the ecclesiastical arrangements
in, every district, in order to facilitate the carry-
ing this measure into effect."
Lord CASTLEREAGH Said, that if he rose to op-
pose the proposition of his Hon. Friend, it was
not from a want of respect for him, or of a com-
mon feeling with him on the subject. No man
was more anxious than he was for the emancipa-
tion of the Catholics, and he considered that
great measure would be incomplete until the pro-
position now submitted to, the House was carried
into effect. But the question is—is this the pro-
per moment?—(Cries of Hear, hear !)—and was
it Wise now to go to issue on a point which would
at the proper time meet the concurrence of Par-
liament ? The House could not be called upon
for a provision without a recommendation from
the Crown, and even on his Honourable Friend's
own shewing this could not be a final mea-
sure, because, if now carried, it must come
back again to Parliament.—He thought it would
he much better that it should come on here-
after as a matter of grace and favour from
the Crown ; for he never could allow that the Ro-
man Catholic Clergy had any claim of right to
a provision. He thought, as it regarded the Ca-
tholic Clergy themselves, it would be better to
leave the question in a state of amicable repose ;
the agitating it at this moment would seem to
place them in an equivocal situation, as it would
bear the character of a sort of bribe.—(Hear,
hear, hear!)—ln justice to the character of that
respectable body, he must state, that, when in
1803 he was authorised to offer a provision for
them, they did then in the most delicate and dis-
interested manner explain that they could not
then receive it without subjecting their characters
to the imputation of being swayed by sordid mo;
tives. He apprehended that Parliament would
not look at the general principle till they could
look at the question of the scale of provision, and
he thought it hardly fair to -call upon the House
to go into the matter without having fuller infor-
mation than at present. He wished it to be
understood that his objection was to the time,
and not to the principle of the measure. He con.:
sidered that the object would be attained more
speedily and safely by leaving it at rest for the
present.
Mr. MITCHINSON deprecated the adoption of
any measure of the kind recommended, without
,a perfect understanding between the Catholic
Clergy and the Government.
Mr. CROKER, in explanation, said, the word
right had not fallen from him ; he had contended
for a principle. The Noble Lord had stated
that principle in even broader terms than he him-
self had done, and said he considered the adop-
tion of it must follow as a necessary consequence
of the present measure. This had not been op-
posed in any quarter ; and so with the pe-rmis-
sion of the House he would withdraw his motion
for bringing up the clause.
Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, said he
had stated what were the sentiments of Lard
Sidmouth's Government. Ile was not authorised
to say that any provision would be proposed by
his Majesty's present Ministers.
The clause was then withdrawn.

Mr. Grees moved the insertion of the words,
cc or any other endowed College or School for
the education of Children." These words were
objected to, as preventing the Catholics from en-
dowing and establishing schools, and a conver-
sation followed, in which Mr. Croker, Sir J.
Newport, Mr. C. W. -Wynne, Mr. Hutchinson,
and Mr. Gipps participated, and a satisfactory
explanation being given by the last mentioned
Gentleman, the clause was agreed to. The
Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Mon-
day, (if then engrossed) and to be printed.