The Sun.
London, England, 1819-02-26 00:00:00

. .
("hte his..„Roydiligbness to meet the extraiardi-
ii,arY expeneei incident to the Offics—thalttey
wctild fees that the sum which was fixed in I'Bl2,
on an
I"l"t .
.
be two the amount of the expences.
asumust
the
erm more than was strictlyproper, and
House ought to allow, considering
-8 the
greaf, constitutional importance of the office,
,fl.ti
Ro of the drat 4
ies which were now imposed on
hear 4
,yal Highness the Duke of
York.—(Hear,
, hear !)
• 2st_A__lrte.. D. gramma said, it was with unaffected.d,iffis,
7;11:en Hotii:saetahterboilsrered himself to the attention of
tittle, 'Wien be was aware tutee
t. must be so many persons of rank and coosidera-
. •
nesirous of stating their sentiments on this
Thost important i question. Hecould nOt help think
ng -
, that notwithstanding the vote to which the
Housebad come the other niebt, upon a question
',Connected with the present subjscr, that they could
1)01 be induced'
Ile
not to agree to the present motion,
fiatcould but think that many ot those who
voted against the ameodment of his Right
II", Friend, bad felt great doubt as to the point of
which was involved in the decision. Or if
ihdeed the law on the subject was so clear and
Precise, that it was reduced to the meaning of
12°te e clause of a statute—was so plain that
LI H oclause required a sort -tit pc rverse ingenuity to tits-
elute it, then it was very surprising that the Noble
44, ord opposite should have had recourse to that
)nost extraordinary 'language by which he en-
deavoured to intimidate the House, and to per-
'ttade them, that if they disagreed from' his coo-
i„Bll:tlethin of it, they would cover themselves with
Nor could he onderS'and in, that case
tirY the Hot,. Meinbers for Oxford (Mr. Peel)
t7)tdd have thought it necessary to adopt a strain
cnt so notch' calcolated to convince the Under--
"I'inding of the House as to seduce them by an
all Peal to their PassionS. But whatever doubts
iltlitight be entertained .by others, he was quite sure
at the Royal Duke who was implicated in this
was• quite satisfisd that there 7is no-
: rag in Point of law to prevent rite Privy Purse
rjrcit.'"L•heing
ffic to.bear the expeoces incident to
xte important
oe of Custos Personee of the
i9g• if this was not the feeling of, the Royal
ti
%„:t4'., what could be thought of the Mt ssage
ch t uI. broughtthe Hotise ? It
•4(. een OWtl _
i"ld be as it his Royal Highness had said
t'44 them :- ‘4 I warn you not ru commit a rob-
-61; or if you do commit it, I shall cot be your
- But he could not take that Mrs-
' toil ° in any such sense. The only fair construe-
" to he put uponst was, that it proceeded from
hectovietioo, on the mind of his Royal Highness,
lht rife expenses could lawfully be charged on
the
Purse ; and in that view the Message
1141-t bs construed meaning—.“ am aware
isit4;t Y"o have a right to charge the suns upon the
'''Y Purse ; but, as a matter of delicacy, I wish
Ras
k(' not to consider me as persbually implicated,
s ~, not to allow your decision to be influenced by
ff any thing but the mere duties of the
0.„ce.," Some Members, however, bad taken
sel. lrent view of the subject, and argued it
hvrerY different grounds. The Hon. Mein-
aQr,'" Oxford had thought it necessary to take a
etr„' extensive view of all the Acts of Parliament
in° ;''''eted with the subject,--and after making a
11,,r'ufsentimentaljourney—(Laughter)----sthroug!;
Statutes, dr,;e3:;i upon eacit,
isitit'g that the preamble of the Act the
tl;s 'l"tls in questiOn was first vowed, was one. of
ia'ti"tost elegant and affecting compos't.ons
"' But be was-tar. irons. thulk-
-4g
"g"ge.
• d 'affect..
tk:"l'dt it WilS not an interesting an
;iTeetarle to see large sums of money voted to
r'tt(H.
~"Yal Family—to see a people still labouring
tist the, burdens of a most expensive war—op-
t44-4,ed with enormous taxes, carrying their hard
IT4s to the foot of the Throne, as a proof ot
ta(i,t; "lait y and at tach Meta . Blit it was too
ln~alto find • that those munificent proofs of
P:,;tY which had been given by the people in
'"P"rous times, should be turned into an argit-
.s„,
pose tavniir of such a vote as was now pros.
tliat(;' (Sr that it should be urged on the ground
't was necessary to enable..a to perform
ilicrin,()st sacred of all ditties to an aged and af-
ar, .e`' lather. It it was agreed to on the grounds
asZ-11kil it was pressed on the House, the.pie-
knl''' "1' the Act should be That whereas it
ttit4lik,c4.e'd Almighty God to visit his. Majesty
fQtrlle" severe indisposition ; and whereas on
tteti," occasions, m
and under a prosperous state of
.`"
the tun4nces, Parliament had voted large sus to
lal Family, in testimony of their loyalty
tio4(!achutent ; and whereas the people were
I)sto' the time Of peace, labouring under the
,:e' Of heavy taxes, which bad been imposed
tlit;;'4lntain the war ;—it was therefore, expedient
k the soul of 10,0001, should be now granted,''
1'"r1; What were tire-dtties which the Duke of
ehe was called upon to discharge ? Was he
11;11iii. (Ton to perform a single duty beyond that
isreu estvaetti'yssotet was bound to render under such
Rl,i t 1 ee
The only argument worth notice
Rtigelt been- advanced favour of the motion,.
13t.,1ti 1812, when the duties of the office of
Ittat, were regulated, a similar sum had been
ti,t;; to her late Majesty. As to the sum then
he could only say, that hp thought his
Itillaer;',Huhillnlstellourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) 4d
great-honour in opposing it. Yet
hteo:t"'e, in spite of that opposition, had agreed
e_ that sum, not on general grounds,- but on
j6at In! of the peculiar circumstances of her Ma-
Ive y's situation. it was then considered too, that
soid:ere involved iu a great and expensive war,
stldc.t.l was supported by extraordinary exertions,
the
Y soch an extraordinary expeuce, that •amoog
tstlllllllenSe Slims Which) was then necess
t,itll to, provide for the public expenditure, the
teifi.,°l 10,0091, for her Majesty was a perfect
(ler::mere dust in the scale. But these consi-
wertis would not now avail. The exertions
recko_t oser----th war was at an end, and the
tow, ",11.4; was to be paid, Btu the House was
of a at the ditties imposed by this office were
itineatri,,ilsor constitutional and public, nature. As
must'say, it was strauge they bad nevus
Dropose,,Y thiog about the duties till the vote was
itn,tvert."--Sonie particulars of those duties had,
Was a been disclosed. It seemed there
appear "tell to attend. Now really it would
ti"llY tn hiedtlitfut_i_tts Council were necessary, any sa
ient, hey Were the legal,
proper, and con-

stitutiopal advisers of the Custos..
.rt ap•
Peared that on the former occasion the House 61
Conimons had been betrayed' into the measure,
which could be supported on no just ground, and
of which the coutinuance was not justified by any
public reason, this was the time when it should
be positively resisted. He was very far from think-
ing that the question now before the House was
involved in that discussed and decided the other
night. As to the latter, he agreed with the Noble
Lord opposite, that any man who entertained
a doubt as to the charging the expellees on the
Privy Purse, ought to have voted against the
amendment of his Right Hr.-- Friend. , If there
was any doubt on that question, it was reason
enough ,why the Parliament_ ought not to inter-
fere. But the question now before them was left
quite ()pets ; and he did .not feel that he had any
right to -anticipate how any Member would vote
'spun it from the vote which he had given onthe
other. 'lt was not one .which could . be.repre-
sented .as a .spoliation..ofthe Privy Purse, ay-
tenintedby those profligate desperadoes who had
so little weight or consideration in the 'country,
that they made that attack on principles which
would subvert all the rights of property; and this for
some_mean and sordid advantage, for that was the
way in which itavaS described. He thought the Hon.
Member for Bristol (Mr. Protheroe) right when
he said that it was unpopular to oppose the grant
of so paltry a sum, and that men who wished to
gain some popularity at the expenee of public
principle, would act best by speaking in favour of
such grants. An Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Martin)
bad said, that he was sure that if he addressed
the mob from the Hustings in Covent Garden,
they wools! agree at once to such a grant. But
those who maintained the true interest of the
Country, without courting the favour, or being
swayed by the influence of Crown or mob, must
oppose it. It was a trite story now, but.'4l
very true one, that the revenue last year had
fallen short of the expenditure by foniteen
miliions. It 'had been very justly matter of
congratulation, that the revenue was now ma-
terially improved. The most sanguine ex-
pectations, however, had scarcely gone so far as'
to refkon that the ineonte of the country would
he less this year than 7,000,0001. behind the
expenditure. even supposing our finances
were in such.a situation that both ends met, it
was to be considered that we were now in the
fifth year -of peace—that many most oppressive
and capricions taxes, which had been imposed to
carry on the war, still continued. The whole
country was oppressed by these impolitic imposi-
tions"; and many of them, such as the ad valorem
Stamp Duties, the Legacy Duty, &c., were of
such a nature as to cramp the industry of the na-
tion. In this situation, the House ought to
consider well on what grounds they were called
upon to vote away any sum of the•public money.
It was true the present sum was small, but for
'the sake of principle, a stand must somewhere be
made. He could not but think that if his Ma-
jesty hadloreseen the calamity which had fallen'
upon him, and the glory of the country so deaily
purchased by
.the burthensson the people, that lie
would ,have been. the first to wish that those who
had so munificently dealt with him and his family
-tinder mote prosperous circumstances, should,
above all, be, spared while loaded with the bur-.
alens that now oppressed them. As for the
grounds nn which the vote had been pressed, lie
thought the Noble Lord opposite would have
much better consulted the dignity of his charac-
ter, if he had spared the language used by biin in
the last debate on the subject. The House must
not,be deceived., It they were to go on piling
expellee upon expellee in the time of peace, the
consequences must be fatal to the country. It was
the ditty of the House of Commons to act with
firmness on-this occasion—to sustain their cha-
racter with the nation—to protect the Royal Fa-
mily from the extravagances of the present Ad-
atinistratioo.

. Mrs PEEL, as he had been very pointedly al-
Inded to by the Hon.-Member who just sat down,
begged to be indulged with a vet y few words,
ati notice of the Hon. and Learned Gentle Man's
extemporaneous effusion.—(He.r, and laughter.)
—That Hon. Member, however, must recollect
that it was not every one who had the advantage
of three days to make a reply.—(Laughter.)—
The Lion. Gentleman quarrelled with his re-
ference to the Acts of Parliament on this subject,
And had talked of his (Mr. Peel's) making a sort
of sentimental journey through the Statute Book.
Now, he couldonty-say, that if it was to he called

a journey, it was one which he had made in com-
pany with some of the Hon. Member's Friends,
to whom he referred him as having led the way.—
(Laughter.)—But it• seemed that even the Hon.
Member himself had not thought the journey un-
pleasant, as be had gone some part of the same
Way, and treated the House with a preamble of
his own.—(La'ughter, and cheering.)
Mr. CRIPPS professed be had, .on a former
evening, been unable to see any reason why the
10,0001. a-year should not be taken from the
Privy Purse ; and had, therefore, voted with the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney.) What-
ever popularity such a vote might give ,him, he
feared he should lose it by his.-Vote to-night ; forlhe
could see no reason why, if the House compelled
his Royal Highness to accept the duties dependent
on the office otCustos, it 'should not also vote him
so moderate a salary as 10,0001. a-year to
defray the extraordinary charges to which the
office necessarily subjected him. •
Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) said be had but one
sentence to utter in explanation. He did not,
in the few words he had addressed to the Com-
mittee, mean to say be could persuade the mob
to vote for his motion, but that it he addressed
from the Hustings the 'people of London—the
Nobility,—(laughter)—the Clergy, and the Gen-
try—not the ragged multitude mentioned by the
Hon. Gentleman—he was sure they would agree
to the vote. On what principle could the House
impose duties, attended with heavy expenses,
without granting money to defray them. He
Would put it to the Hon. Member himself (Mr.
Denman) whether, if among musty parchments—
(laughter)—he found any thing which entitled
him to a dormant Peerage, and took it for the
opinion of one of the Law Officers of the Crown,
offering them the remuneration usual in the pro-
fession, if he should say—."t Don't give me one

,farthing—(langhter)—l can't think of taking a
f Single sixpence asa compensation for mw labour,
(daughter)—would not the Hon. Gentlemen
I
say—" I insist upon paying that which is justly
due for your services to me, and that to which
aoy other Member of the Profession would be
fairly entitled."—(Laughter,)—This case was
quite analogous to that of the Duke of York.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. BEas•AL regretted to find the name of an
illustrionf. Duke, so distinguished for worth and
every benevolent feeling, had been unnecessarily
repeated in these debates: He admitted the ge-
,nerous feeling's of the British public, and its at-
tachment to the reigning fancily; he, neverthe-
less, as he considered the House was not by the
preceding vote in the CoMmittee restricted from
voting. in ttis case as it might determine upon a
revision of the case, should, as one of the watch-
ful guardians of the public purse, consult, not Ilk
own feelings, but the interests of. that public he
was bound to protect under every eircnrustance'. •
Mr. CooPtat said, the duty now imposed upon
the House was , not to lay new,burdens on the
people,, but to appropriate the sums on the Civil
List. Utile same office were continued, he could
not see why the salary should be diminished. He
understood the vote of the other night to have
beets, not whether any Sum should be granted,
but admitting that some grant should be made,
out of what fund it should be taken. What was
the situation of our Monarch ?—aged, afflicted,
ani destitute—and in this situation was the House
.called upon to stint the comforts becoming his
rank and situation ?—(Hear, hear, hear 1)
When it was considered that he had reigned more
than half a century, this vote was to be consi-
dered as a tribute of affection from a loyal and
grateful people.--(Bear, hear, hear I)—Adverting
to the notice of a motion for restoring the 't wo
Equerries, be trusted that it worild be agreed to.
Mr. GoRDoN spoke shortly, in a low tone, and
was scarcely audible in the gallery. He express-
ed his opinion strongly in favour of the vote,. on
account of the importance of the duties of the
office.

Mr. WlLLrams (a new Member) could not
agree with the course pursued on this occasion.—
if by any grant of money the comftirts of our King
could he increased, he would be the last matt to
oppose it ; and he 1:•as sure throughout the whole
nation there world he an unaoithous disposition
that it should be given. But as it was plain that the
comfort and happiness of his Majesty were in no
way concerned in this vote, he couliftlot agree to
it. He could not approve of the Report of the
Select Committee. It was disgusting.to see all the
items of the expellees of the Royal gstablishment
so much for the kitchen—so notchi for clothes
and all this published and distributed through the
country. This could only fetal blower the Royal
Family in the public' estimat ion. He thought sotne
sum ought to be voted on this occasion, but that
10,0001. was too much. In 1812, when the late
Mr. l'ereeval first proposed the vote of this sunto s
the Queen to meet the expenses of the offices,
that great Statesman, than whom 'there was no
man more attached to his King artd country, bad
'Or-ight it necessary to apologize for the. Magni-
(tide of this sow. It the suns was too great for the
Queen, it must be too great for rh"e Dirke of York.
Looking at the circumstances of the country, he
thought 10,0001 too touch ; but ct.nsidering the
duties of the office, be thought to give:nothing
would be unjust. He would therefore propole
that the sum be 50001.

The SPEAKER.--" Does the Hon. Member mean
to move an an►eni?ment

Mr. WkwAms felt himself so totally without
influence in the House, that he should hardly vet.,
tore on any motion; but, if any Member would
second it, he should more as.in amendment that
the sum, be 5,0001. instead of 10,0001..
This amendnient was seconded, and the ques-
tion upon it put from the Chair.

Mr. LONG WELLESLEY thought be should be
• guilty of a gross dereliction of public duty, and a
great violation of public honour, it he could agree
to the motion. He would not be deterred by any
expressions which might be used from any part
of the House, from taking that part which be
thought proper. lie agreed very_ much in the
view taken of this subject by the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just sat down—and that the arrange.
merits of the Windsor Establi?.hment were not ie-
gulated by a just regarck; to.a principle of econo-
my. lie thought ten thousand pounds too much.
to be granted to defray the expences of the office
of Custos Personal, He.conceived the feelings of
the country to he such towards. the Duke of York
and the Royal Family, that any sun& which', was
necessary would be cheerfully granted. •He cer-
tainly bad a sort of latent .feeling that the sum of
10,0001. was nut now proposefi for the Doke of
York solely to defray, the exyences of the office of
Custos.

Lord EBRINGTON said, though he felt it 4114
possible to add.any thing to the arguments which
had been so ably urged against the present ;no-
tion, yet he was' anxious to enter ,his protest
against what he conceived to be one of the most
wanton demands ever made on the liberality of
the House. He was the more desiro►►s of doing
so, from its having been urged on the part of his
Majesty's Ministers, that those, who had votetl
for the amendment the other night were thereby
precluded from-voting against this motion. Mi-
nisters had much to answer tor, on account of
the way iu which they had dragged the Duke of
Volk before the House on this occasion.' Those
who argued on the other side of the House Con-'
tended, that the office of CtiStos was one of a high
constitutional character, and ought therefore to
be expensive. But be maintained that the sum
allowed to the Queen was not a fit precedent for
thi4 case. On the same principle on which be.
opposed the motion he should also oppose the
amendment.

Mr. S. CocKs thought there %vas no occasion
to have dragged forward the Duke of Yoik on
this occasion. The office was the only tiling to
be considered, and looking at its duties, he
thought 10,0001. the least sum that could be
granted.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought the acceptance of
any salary was degrading to the office itself. On
the same principle he objected to the grant of
50001. Gentlemen on the other side would then
come down to the House, and inform them, that

in their, zeal for economy they bad applied to
every house 09 the Windsor road which posted
for one shilling a mile.—(The expressions of im-
patience here grew general.)—He had one word
more to say in conclosion—he always construed
coughs into cheers,(A laugh.)
Mr. W. WYNN could not
,help remarking on
what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke last. He had mixed op much extraneous
matter with the subject befhte the House. This
was. an occasion upon which it was Necessary for
them to express their feelings, and to act as be-
came the Legislature of this Country. It was a
question upon which it was quite improper to mix
up the services of his Royd Highness. Those ser-
vices be estimated as highly.as any one ; hut it
was nor a fit time, when they were deliberating
upon his appointment to the custody of his fa-
flier's person, to take them into consideration
Ile then contended that the same sum could not
be required by his Royal Highness the Duke of
York, because it was impossible that' he could be
called upon to expend it in the execution of the
high trust which had been imposed upon him. I3,it
if it were determined that that sum should be
given, be would, wish that thenbject of it should
be avowed. If it were as a salary, let-that. be
named, and the 'necessity for its large amount
proved; brit if.,it were intended as„a gift, it was
but fair that it should be asked flour the Honse,
as such. It was, he conceived, rather an insult
to the feelings of iris Royal nighness to ask for
that large payment for a duty, the discharge of
which in private life, if only made a source of
emolument, would be looked upOn as extranr-
t•
Ginary.
•
Mr. BATHURsT thought that the House, after
creating so high an office as the tiustos of his
Majesty's;acicil.persoo, should annex to it a re-
munei atioo proportioned to its dignity and im-
portance, especially as nobody could doubt that
the expences attendant on it woold.he consider-
ahle. Considering the ditties attached to the
office, and the digoity of the person to be taken
care of, the people, he felt persoaded, would not
think the sum proposed for his Royal Highness
too
Lord CAR HAMPTON said, that be would at all
titnes feel difficulty in opposing the • grant of
Money proposed by Ministers for any branch of
the
,Royal Family; but On the. present occasion
he must say that no consideration of obloquy should
deter him froth opposing that which he conceived
,to he an unprincipled, unfeeling, and auda-
.cions step. He considered it his duty to resit to
the utmost at, attempt made by some persons to
pay their CoOrt at the expence Of the people.
The Members of the Administration had in the
last Session been foiled in their various attempts
respecting pecuniary grants to different branches
of the linyalarnily. They ought at present to
take Care; they had another tt ial, and if they should
not succeed, out they would go.—(Laughter.)----
Even if they should be able to carry the question
for a grant of 10,0001. a-year to his Royal High-
ness, he. would not" accept it. if, when the up.
pointment of a Clisos had been taken into consi.
&ration, they had passed over his Royal High:
ne,s, he mig.ht have with good reason felt ois-
pleased ; but the Royal Duke would, no doubt,
feel indignant it tiuy supposed him unwilling to
exercise the duties of the office without receiving
the' proposed emoloment. To any one who might
hold such onworthylangoage to the Royal Duke,
he would say, "Do Sod think that I am of so
griping a asposi:ion as ,to wish for the sacred
office in order- to ybtaiu the proposed reward ?","
No ; he (Lord Carhatnnton) felt confident that
his Royal flightirsS would not be otodone in ge-
iterouS feeling by a Vienchoian. Perhaps it was
the .wish of Ministers Chat' the office of Custos
should get into the Red liooki ondremain there
for ever.
.He thought that their reason in•support.
of the proposed giant was like that which bad
once been given for voting a sum of money to a
Commissioner of Lotteiies in Ireland before any •
such office had existed, viz, Let the money be
voted, because such an office may at some future
time exist.---(A hugh.)—His Lordt.hip concluded
bvv' paying a high-compliment to his Royal High-
ness the Duke of York, as' Cinmander-in-Chief
of the Army, amongst whom, 'he, said, every offi-
cer and soldier loved him, and nobody more than
be (Lord Carhantaton) did. '

. ,
Mr. HART believed the question was, whether
the salary ought to be taken from a distressed anti
a•n impoverished people, or some mode adopted to
save his Royal iliglruess from the disgrace ac-
companying the grant ?
Mr. GRIFFITHS objected to the grant in the
present state of the country, the House could not
be too cautious. in its application of the public
money. The Noble Lord kCastlereagb) bad lately
drawn a picture of the prosperity of the country
with an'extraordinary magnifying power. That
picture, however, upon close inspection, he ;had
found to be a mere daub.

Colonel Ecusobr supported the grant as long
as his venerable, Sovereign lived, but he had no
fear that such an expenee would be made per,
petual._

Mr. FRE4M.INTLE declared, that in supporting
the present grant he felt that he but followed tie
general feeling of the country. Were he called
before his constituents to explain his .vote, he
.would meet the inquiry with satisfaction, coh-
yinced that such
.a remuneration to the highs trust
his Royal Highness was called to ekecdte would
be freely yielded by the loyalty, liberality, and
just ice of the people.
Mr. TIERNEY assured the House that he would
occupy but a very. small port iota of its
The Hon. Genileuran then entered into a very
able discussion of the question, in'whicb be be-
stowed many invectives against •Miuisters for
abusing the confidence of the people, And de-
grading his Royal Highness by the manner of pro..
posing the grant. The situation required nothing
more than to attend twice a-week at, Windsor.
-!--
A thousand or fifteen 'hundred pounds a-year
would be more than sufficient . to meet the ex'-•
peaces of travelling there so of even taking into
account the exorbitant charge ,for post horses.--
Much was said about theacts of liberality his Royal
Highness would be called upon to perform, 011,1
part of his Majesty, in • his situeti in of Curos.
He knew of no acts of liberality the would he.
come incumbent on him in that capacity, more than
.those which his known generosity of disposition