The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-03 00:00:00

O'Connell, although Mr. O'Brien declared at that meet-
ing that ho was not a repealer. At the very same time
Mr. O'Driscoll, who had been twice dismissed from the
magistracy for gross misconduct, was re-instated.—
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the Commission of In-
quiry into the relation of landlord and tenant, he would
only say that he expected no good result from it, for
nothing could benefit the country which would serve
only for a new distribution of its produce without any
new development of its resources. In point of fact,
they were in the same position as to Ireland that they
were in three years ago. Her Majesty's Government
took credit to themselves for having governed Ireland
without having recourse to any extra-constitutional or
coercive law. He would not say that he should, under
all circumstances, oppose a suspension of the Constitu-
tion; but he would say, that nothing had occurred in
Ireland in those three years to offer a pretext to the
Government for suspending the Constitution.—(Hear,
hear.) lie would conclude by imploring the Govern-
ment to act towards Ireland with that justice and im-
partiality which might convince the people of that part
of the empire that the union was an advantage to them:
Lord WHARNCLIFFE defended the conduct of the
present Government. Their constant object had been
to render the administration of justice in England and
Ireland as pure as possible.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Marquis said that the Government had done nothing for
Ireland. Now he (Lord Wharncliffe) had been the
person to answer the speech of a Noble Lord opposite
in the beginning of the session on the subject of Ireland.
He stated at that time that agitation and sedition were
approaching to the verge of treason—that the Govern-
ment would enforce the law—and that they would also
administer the law in a just and conciliatory spirit.—
(Hear, hear.) He trusted that they had fulfilled those
promises.—(Hear, hear.) The conciliatory measures of
the Government in respect to education had deprived
them of the support of those Members of
the other House of Parliament upon whom they
would otherwise have most depended.—(Hear, hear.)
It was very different in such matters—for instance, in
the case of Maynooth—to conciliate one party without
offending the other.—(Hear, hear.) The next subject
was the social improvement of the people. He would
put it to the Noble Marquis, and to the House, whether
it was possible to take measures for improving the social
condition of the people, without ascertaining the real
state of the relations between landlord and tenant, to
which much of the evils in the social state of Ireland was
attributed. The inquiry was proceeding, and he hoped
that a measure, founded on it, would be laid before Par-
liament next year.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis
had not done justice to the Government when he said
that the object of the Registration Act was to limit the
constituency. They would have been perfectly willing
to adopt such modifications as would enlarge, instead of
restricting the constituency.—(Hear.) With respect
to the dismissal of magistrates for being repealers, he
would only say that, in the state in which Ireland was
in 1843, it would not be safe to retain those gentlemen
in office.—(Hear, hear.) He felt it his duty to defend
the Government to which he belonged, and of which it
was the earnest desire to govern those two countries on
equal footing as much as possible—to preserve the peace
—and to repress that agitation which kept the people of
Ireland in a degraded state, and thwarted every effort to
elevate and improve them. It was the wish of her Ma-
jesty's present Ministers to govern Ireland upon prin-
ciples of equity and justice, and not by means of a party.
Lord MONTEAGLE had heard with great satisfac-
tion the speech of the Noble Lord, and nothing should
fall from him that could tend to impair the
effect of so satisfactory an avowal of the inten-
tions of the Government towards Ireland. He re-
gretted, however, that the Government continued
to tolerate the spy system, and to give encouragement
to wicked persons to seduce the ignorant and unsuspect-
ing into the commission of crime.—(Hear, hear.) He
had seen many instances in his own country of the
hatred of the people to those spy witnesses, whereas the
jurors were treated with the utmost respect. Recently
it had occurred that parties had formed a conspiracy to
swear informations against innocent persons, and had
set fire to the premises of Lord Dunsany, in order to ac-
cuse innocent parties of the crime which they themselves
had committed. Those persons had since been convicted
on the evidence of the innocent parties, the Government
themselves having ordered the prosecution. The first
question that would be put to those who supported the
Union, on their return to Ireland, would be, What has
the Legislature done during this session fur Ireland ?
The best answer that could be furnished to those
who supported the union would be to enable. them to
refer to the statute-book, and to say such and such
measures have been passed for the benefit of Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had referred to the
arguments which he had used in the House of Commons
against the repeal of the union. He gave the Govern-
ment credit for what they said, but let them be enabled
to appeal not only to the words spoken, but to the deeds
performed.—(Hear, hear.) During the whole of this
session they had had a great judicial question pending,
which had rendered it impossible for them to discuss
Irish questions, but they would not have remained so
inactive as regards those questions had it not been that
they could not discuss them without prejudicing that
great case. Their object in the present discussion was
not to strengthen their own party—not to add fuel to
the flame of party—but to lay before the Government
and the country subjects of consideration which might
be brought to maturity during the next year ; and to
state openly the points to which they thought the atten-
tion of the Government ought to be directed. In some
points the Government had redeemed their pledges, and
he would not for one instant attempt to undervalue the
importance of their measures. The Bill with respect
to Catholic Charities was one of the most important
measures which had passed since the union. It was a
recognition of the Catholic priesthood, and expressed a
desire to conciliate them rather than to regard them with
hostility. It promoted, not only the well-being, but the
independence of the Catholic clergy; and the amend.
ments which had been in it, had been made in a spirit
and with an intention on the part of the Government to'
render the Bill more acceptable. The courage, the
honesty, and the good sense of recognising on the face of
the Bill, the existence of the Catholic archbishops and
bishops was most praiseworthy. It removed a stigma
under which the Roman Catholic hierarchy felt they
were labouring. The democratic character which had
been infused into the Catholic Church contrary to the
spirit of its hierarchy, and of its constitution, would re-
ceive a check from this recognition.—(Hear, hear.) To
make the education system work in Ireland, they
must get Catholics and Protestants to co-ope-
rate. He could have wished the Government
had spoken out more boldly upon this subject,
but he approved of the increase in the grant.
He thought much might be done to improve the physical
condition of the people by the establishment of agricul-
tural schools. With regard to the franchise, he would
warn them against committing any false step. The re-
presentations made to the people that the Bill of last
session was intended to limit their franchises had made
repealers by wholesale. He believed the measure
proposed this session was intended to increase the fran-
chise, but so long as they made the franchise dependent
on the lease, they gave the landlord the power of de-
stroying the franchise. They must have an occupation
franchise.—(Hear.) The clause giving the new 10/.
franchise without occupation contained in the Bill was
one which it behoved every Irishman to oppose. It
would revive the worst features of the faggot system.
He intreated the Government seriously to consider this
question.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord REIDESISALEL-It is the law in England.
Lord MONTEAGLE—It might be the law in Eng-
land, but would they give Ireland the whole of the Eng-
lish franchise—that was what Mr. O'Connell asked ?

Lord REDESDALE—The wholo of the county fran-
chise.

Lord MONTEAGLE was obliged for the interrup-
tion, but they must give Ireland the town franchise also.
Lord REDESDALE—We are only talking of the
county franchise.
Lord MONTEAGLE considered the Noble Lord an
excellent specimen of those who, on the other side,
talked of equality with England.—(Hear, hear.) They
would give Ireland equality with England when it
suited their purposes, but the instant a real equality
was proposed—the instant such an equality was proposed
as would be beneficial to Ireland, they stopped short
and refused it.—(Hear' hear.) With regard to the
grant to Maynooth, he approved of the intention
expressed by the Government to increase that grant.
He trusted that the Government would look to the subject
in every light, for if they did not intend to do all that was
wanted they had better do nothing. As to the Landlords
and Tenants Bill it was said information was wanted—they
wanted no such thing, as every information had been
long since obtained upon that subject. The Noble Lord
concluded by apologising to the House for the length of
time he had occupied them, but he trusted he had not
said anything that was calculated to produce any ill
feeling in any one.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW did not look upon the
Repeal Association with that seriousness his Noble
Friend had done. Because he believed that the
Repeal question would not gain much ground
in Ireland. He trusted to the good sense and feeling
of the middle classes in Ireland, to soon put an end to
the repeal agitation in Ireland. He believed that, con-
stituted as the repeal association at present was, there
was no measure that could be brought into Parliament
that would meet' their views or give them satisfaction.
He believed that the prejudices against the Protestants
were fast diminishing. He could not join in censures
of his Noble Friend on the Goirernment as to the man-
ner in which they proposed to elect the persons who
were to educate the people of Ireland.• Ile agreed with
his Noble Friend that animosities _ and clamour
had been raised in Ireland, in consequence of
the syitem of registration that had been
adopted in that country under a Bill that was
altogether unnecessary. lie thought that Bill
ought to be purified of the objections that had been
raised against it. lie believed the present.Governinent
were anxious to do all in their power for Ireland, and
they ought not to be taunted with not bringing in mea-
sures, lie trusted that 891119 measure would be brought

forward to make provisions for the Catholic Ministers.
If measures of this sort were adopted, satisfaction would
be given to those people in Ireland whose object was not
agitation.

Lord CAMPBELL supposed that this debate was to
be looked upon as the consideration of
the state of Ireland; and how they could do it
without considering how the State trials haul
been conducted, he was at a loss to conceive. To attempt
to consider the state of Ireland without mentioning the
name of Mr. O'Connell, was like performing the play of
Hamlet with the part of Hamlet omitted by particular
desire.—(A laugh.) The Noble President of the Coun-
cil said the Government had asked for no fresh power
or sought to suspend the Constitution, but something
which had a worse aspect than either had been done.
He wolud much rather see the. Constitution suspended
than the law perverted. When the Constitution was
suspended it acquired vigour at its restoration; but when
the law was perverted a dangerous precedent was estab•
lished, which might be permanently hurtfuL He felt great
alarm at the apathy which existed regarding Ireland.
It was true tranquillity existed, but could they trust to
the continuance of that tranquillity ? Was there not
universal and deep discontent ? Was not the repeal
rent increasing ? Had the feeling they so much de-
plored subsided ? He feared not. He hoped England
would be ever united to preserve the union as it then was,
for the repeal would be more hurtful to Ireland than to
England. But at "the same time measures of concilia-
tion should be adopted. During his stay in Ireland an
election for Dublin took place, when Mr. Hutton and
Mr. O'Connell were the candidates. Mr. O'Connell, the
hero of repeal and the favourite of the people, obtained
a less number of votes than Mr. Hutton, the non-repeal
candidate, showing that repeal was then, at all events, in
a less popular condition than at present, when the repeal
rent was weekly on the increase.
Here the Noble Lord suddenly stopped, in consequence
of a loud conversation which was carried on between
Lord Dalhousie and the Duke of Wellington. The
Noble and Learned Lord said, " I stop, because I must
needs hear every word those two Noble Lords are say-
ing." The conversation here ceased, and
Lord CAMPBELL resumed.—The Catholics and
Protestants of Ireland should be put on an equality, and
until they were so, there would be no lasting peace or
tranquillity in Ireland.
The Bill was then read a third time.

The Controverted Elections Bill was read a second
time.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 2.
INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.

Sir J. GRAHAM (in continuation from our Afternoon
Edition of yesterday) said—The House would remember
he sensation which had been created during the present ses-
sion by the statements which had been made of the horrors
of the small debt gaol of Birmingham. He had caused
inquiries to be made into the state of various small debt
gaols in the country, and he could not have believed that
such iniquities and cruelties could be suffered to exist in
a Christian country. The Secretary of State had no
control over those prisons, although he might have
them inspected. However much he might be disgusted
with the horrors of those gaols, he was perfectly impo-
tent to remedy the evil. He might recommend, but his
recommendations were treated with neglect if the altera-
tions recommended were attended with expense ;
and he was sure the Hon. Member for Man-
chester, who had objected to hurrying forward this Bill,
would be the very person who would rather sit a month
longer than not remedy these horrors. His attention
had been drawn to the state of the small debt goal in
Birmingham in the month of January last, in conse-
quence of a riot which had taken place in that prison on
Christmas-day. He had sent down an inspector, and
his report contained a statement of horrors which he
could scarcely have believed to have existed—horrors
equal to anything which had been laid open by Howard
—and this in Birmingham had been cited by the
Hon. Gentleman as a case in point why the House
should not consent to the abolition of the power
of imprisonment for small debts. (The Right
Hon. Baronet here read the report in question,
from which it appeared that the prison consisted
of a kitchen and a cellar, situated in a street
in Birmingham, and was for the imprisonment of persons
whose debts were under 51. The day-room for poor
debtors was a scullery, 18 feet by 14, and 7 feet high.
There was a grating on a level with the pavement of the
street, and debtors were stationed there to beg; and not-
withstanding spirits were prohibited, they were handed
through this grating, and the goaler did not dare to in-
terfere, lest he should raise a riot which he would be
powerless to quell. There was one general dormitory in
the attic which was 11 feet by 16, in which were two plat-
forms extended along each side wall, and on them the
prisoners slept ; at one time fifteen persons had slept
together on one of these platforms and eight on the other.)
The reason of this difference was that the prisoner who
had been longest in the gaol was called the king, and
possessed several privileges, one of which was
that he should not be obliged to take more than
seven bedfellows on his platform. No medical
assistance was afforded to the prisoners in cases of sick.
ness ; and they had possessed swords, staves, &c.,
until the recent riot, when they had been taken from
them. The riot had been occasioned by the practice of
exacting from every prisoner 2s. 6d. on his admission,
under the denomination of " chum-money." He had re-
monstrated with the authorities, and some amendment
had been made, but not to a sufficient extent. But did
the case of Birmingham stand alone ? Far from it. His
attention had been directed to the small debt prison of
Kidderminster, and, on the 15th June he had directed
an inspector to proceed there. From his report it ap-
peared that the prison consisted of one room, twelve
feet by twelve, paved with brick. The room was des-
titute of furniture. There was a bundle of straw
in the middle of it, on which the prisoners slept in their
clothes. There was a yard behind, thirteen feet by
twelve, but it was so badly drained that in wet weather
the prisoners were confined to the room. They never
took off their clothes, there was no allowance of soap,
and there were only two small jugs of water allowed per
day for all the prisoners, for washing and drinking ; the
only allowance of food was a quarter of a quartern loaf
to each prisoner.—(Hear, hear.) There was no gaoler;
they were visited by the beadle in the morning and the
evening, and there was no power of procuring assistance
in cases of sudden illness. The shortest tune of im-
prisonment in this place was ten days, but a prisoner
,might be imprisoned forty days, and again detained
upon a fresh execution.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He would not disgust the House by going into further
details, but he submitted that such a state of things
called for an immediate remedy, and it was much better,
in his opinion, to abolish imprisonment for small debts
than to attempt to remedy the defects of these goals, for
he regarded the principle of the law which allowed im-
prisonment for small debts as indefensible.— (Hear.)
If compensation to gaolers were necessary let compen-
sation be granted, but he trusted the House would not
subject the unhappy debtor for six months longer to
these horrors.

Mr. F. 11. BERKELEY said he had presented a peti-
tion against the Bill, but after the statement of the Right
llon. Gentleman he felt that he could not support that
part of the prayer of the petition which asked that the
measure should be delayed.—(Cheers.) He hoped, how-
ever, that some alteration would be made in the 36th and
3 7 di clauses.
The House then resolved itself into Committee.

Clause I was agreed to. On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. SPOONER protested against the abolition of the
power of imprisonment merely on account of the im-
proper state of discipline in small debt gaols. Those
defects might be remedied. The state of the Birming-
ham gaol was known to the Right Hon. Gentleman in
January.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that four gaols were all that
had yet been examined. He was afraid, that in their
main features, all these small debt gaols were identical.
Mr. WAKLEY thought the system of credit most in-
jurious to the labouring classes. He would be sorry to
delay the Bill a single moment. He had presented a
petition from his constituents against the Bill, but he
should feel bound to support the measure, even if he were
to resign his seat twenty-four hours after.—(Cheers.)

Mr. S. WORTLEY said the Government had not
answered the complaint of the Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham, that the measure ought to have been brought
forward at an earlier period of the session.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was not aware of the extent
of the evil before the end of June.
Mr. BOUVERIE said, that in considering the ques-
tion of delay, they should be careful to put the saddle on
the right horse. He thought great blame was attribu-
table to a high legal functionary in the other House.
Sir J. GRAHAM confessed that he did not under-
stand the charge. Lord Cottenham took one view and
Lord Brougham another, and the Lord Chancellor had
to mediate between them. Higher intellects were never
brought into contact, and he thought the Lord Chan-
cellor was quite right in hearing evidence before he de-
cided upon the course which he had taken.—(llear.)
Mr. -BOUVERIE said, what he had meant was,
to blame the legal functionary in the other House who
had delayed the first measure introduced in a manner
which its proposer had no reason to expect.
Clause 2 was then agreed to. Clause 3 was postponed.
Clauses 4 to 15 inclusive were agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 24 inclusive were agreed to, with a few
verbal amendments.

Clauses from 25 to 35 were agreed to without dis-
cussion. Oa clause 36 being proposed,
Mr. lIAWES moved that the following words be.
added to the clause :—" Except it shall be made to ap-
pear to the satisfaction of the judge who shall try such
action, such judge being either a judge of one of the
superior courts, or a barrister, attorney, or solicitor, that
such debt was contracted by any manner of fraud or
breach of trust, or that such defendant has parted with
any of his property with a view to defraud his
creditors or any of them, in any of which cases
it shall be lawful for such judge, if he shall think
fit, but not otherwise, to certify the same under his hand,
and thereupon to order that such defendant may be