The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-21 00:00:00

rnE SUN, LONDON, ZUESDAY EVENING, MAY 21, 844.

tune to his relatives, and in 1840 the nephew committed means of employing. He thought it very desirable with
suicide when the frauds were about to be disco- respect to the security of three millions, that the Bank
vered. In the eighth case, a bank failed with should have the power of depositing other securities
liabilities to the amount of 157,9501.—n0 dividends. than those deposited originally. He did not see any dis-
How much did the assets amount to ? Just 20/. advantage in that as regarded the security afforded to
(Laughter, and cries of "Hear, hear.") And yet there the public. He apprehended that the Bauk would, in
were persons to be found who would steed up and say fact, perform all the functions which it had hitherto per-
this system was perfect, and required no change. Now formed. There was one point to which he must advert
it might be thought that it was impossible to exceed this, for one moment, to which he attached some importance,
but he would give them one case more. In the ninth in- namely, the desirableness of introducing_ a principle of
stance, the fiat was made out on the 12th of July 1842 ; greater permanence into the direction. He was not at
no dividend had yet been made ; but the creditors had all desirous of imposing a Government officer on the di-
this consolation, that 7501. had. been made by race- rectors, but he thought that no one, who was
horses.—(Great laughter.) Now he proposed to take so well acquainted with the subject as the
some steps to purify this system. He did not wish to Chancellor of the Exchequer, could fail to see
injure existing interests ; but if the safety and welfare of the necessity for alteration. The amount of issue was
the community required a change, be thought the fixed at the average of the last two years. That ave-
present proprietors of private banks would have no rage was low, and he thought this was in its favour. A
just right to protest against the establishment of great deal had been said as to the extreme hardship to
joint-stock banks on a safe and sure foundation on paid- country banks of being tied down to the average circu-
up capital. He had shown the House that it was ha. lation of the Bank of England. It was said that the
possible to allow the present system of unlimited corn - circulation varied very much. Now he had taken the
petition to go on. He did not object to increased cem- trouble of examining the variation for the two last
petition, but to the principle of coining mere credit into years, and he had found that the average difference was
money without depositing security.—(Hear, hear.) about 800,000/. Tho Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
Such a system he believed was not in anywise inter (erred to country bankers who considered an unlimited
woven with the prosperity of this country. It was said issue absolutely necessary for the farmers and the agri-
that great inconvenience would be suffered from the pro- cultural interest generally in this country. The grounds
posed restriction—perhaps there might be some, but of this objection appeared to him altogether absurd.
that would be but a slight argument against any change. The evidence on the subject was contradictory.
It was further urged that the people were not habituated It was contended that it would be impossible
to the Bank of England; that there would be a great for the banks to . make advances to the farmers
objection to take Bank of England notes; and that agri- unless they had this power of issue. An Ipswich banker
cultural prices would tall if accommodation could not be was asked in what half-year his circulation was the low-
obtained from the country banks. He apprehended that est. His reply was :—" In the half-year ending in
these fears were merely visionary. Now at present March." He was asked whether the period when he
the Bank of England had a monopoly of circula- advanced most to farmers was the period of the lowest
tion and issue within sixty-five miles of the circulation ; and he replied, " Certainly it is." There
metropolis. Now this radius included most of the im- There was other evidence to the same effect. The next
portant agricultural districts, either all or a !portion of assertion was, that it would be impossible for the country
the following agricultural districts:—Essex, Kent, Suf- banks to afford to the farmers the means of paying their
folk, Norfolk, Hampshire, Oxfordshire, Northampton- rents. They had the power of obtaining Bank of Eng-
shire, Buckinghamshire, and Bedfordshire. Now the land notes, in addition to their own circulation, to any
total amount of issue within this district, by banks, other amount they pleased. Mr. Gill was asked whether he
than theßank of England, was 1,000,329/., which showed apprehended that any inconvenience had arisen to bank
that no great advantage had been taken of private banks. customers from the substitution of Bank of England
He had now laid down the principles on which' her Ma- notes for country notes ; and his answer was, that the
jesty's Government had determined to act. The time only inconvenience eonsisted in the banks being
was now come when some check must be placed to pre- more liberal than they otherwise would have been.
vent the recurrence of those evils. The proposed With regard to the Scotch banks, he apprehended that
measures would be adopted with a perfect regard to the they were to be subject to the same regulation of issue
convenience of the subject, and a perfect consistency with and the same publication of accounts as the English
liberal treatment to existing interests, but, above banks. But he could have wished that their publica-
all, to prevent those shocks upon the commerce tions of accounts could be made to correspond more
and ariculture of the country which had hitherto closely with those of the English banks. In England
proved so ruinous. He trusted that the sense the returns by the banks to the Government included
and feeling of the House would be entirely with him in the whole amount of their stamped notes; but this was
making a just compromise, and in placing this check not the ease with the Scotch banks, and he understood
upon the recurrence of those evils which, he trusted, that the difference in the mode of making the return made
would tend ultimately to the establishment of sound and the circulation of the Scotch banks about thirty per cent.
just legislation.—(Cheers.) less than it would be if returned on the same principle
Mr. C. WOOD said that, as he had been ,chairman of that was adopted in England. With regard to the effect
the Committee of Banks of Issue, he would say a few of the measure, he thought it might perhaps produce
words to the House. He thought it was of the highest some degree of pressure ; but if the present system was
importance that a principle should be laid done insecure, the price they must pay for greater stability
by which the monetary system should be and security was the loss of the present facility. lie
guided.—(Hear, hear.) The last time an attempt believed that the advantages to trade and commerce of
had been made to regulate the currency was in 1819. the accommodation afforded by the Bank of England had
By that measure a return was made to a metallic been much overrated. He was supported in this opinion
standard, and he hoped it would continue. None of the by no less an authority than Mr. Ricardo. Having read
metals was so unchangeable as gold, and that alone was the opinion of that writer on this point, in which he
a reason with him why he preferred a gold standard to states that the effect of this accommodation is often very
any other. He believed those who were anxious for it insignificant compared with the accommodation from prt-
silver standard were so with a view to depreciation, for vete sources, he gave as an illustration a case that oc-
silver had fallen more in proportion than gold. At the curred in 1829, a year of great pressure, in which all
present ntoment there was reason to believe the supply the accommodation that could be procured at the Bank
of gold was increasing faster than the supply of was 300,000/., to be repaid in one month. This was
silver, and if that were so, those who were anxious utterly -inadequate for the purpose of the parties, who
raised from private sources the sum of 600,0001
for a depreciation ought to be cautious how they
changed the standard from gold to silver. The ounce for .an unlimited time. He also read a statement
of gold was at present valued at 3/ 17s. mid., and the of the • circulation of the Bank of England
pound in gold contained 123 grains and a fraction; and ,luring the same year, and of the amount of its dis-
by that he hoped they would abide. The Hon. Gentle. counts for the same period, in order to show that the
man referred to some evidence which had been given restriction-of its issue did not produce a diminution in
before the Bank Committee, of which he was chairman, the amount of its accomodation, but the reverse. In
and said that the system of free trade in banking had April, 1829, the circulation of the Bank of England was
been followed by the most disastrous consequences hi 18,000,000/ ; the bills it discounted in the same
America. In 1830 there were 329 banks in the United month, amounted to 3,500,0001. In July its
States, with a capital of 145,000,000 dollars, and-an circulation was 17,500,0001., and the bills it dis-
issue of 61,000,000 dollars. In 1837 it had in- counted, 6,700,0001. In October its circulation
creased to 677, being more than double ; was 16,500,0001. ; its discounts, 7,700,000/. In
the capital was 378,000,000 dollars, and the circulation December its circulation had fallen to 16,000,000/. •
had more than trebled, being 186,000,000. But in the and the amount of bills it discounted was 8,500,000/:
May of that year cash payments had been suspended This disproved the assertion that the power of the Bank
through the Union. All the evils against which they to accommodate the public depended on the increase of
were anxious to provide had desolated that country from its issues. He believed that the present measure would
one extremity to the other. But if they looked to what effect good by checking the drain of gold at a compare-
had taken place in this country in 1839 it would show live early period of its tendency to leave the Bank, and
they were not quite so far off from such a state of things thus lessen the ultimate shock such drains occasioned.
themselves, and it was only by adopting the unusual The experience for the last twenty years proved that
course of applying for foreign credit—a course not very monetary embarrassments passed over quietly in propora
honourable to the character of the country—that they tion as the paper of the country was diminished in coin-
were able to avert those evils which took place in America. Parison with the circulation of the country. Such he
This was owing to the unlimited circulation of paper ; took to be the principle of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
and it was worthy of remark that, previous to this time, lie believed it would not only check the tendency to a
the circulation was greater than at any former period. drain of gold, but go far to prevent the necessity of its
He did not mean to deny that the circulation of paper occurring at all. He read an extract from the evidence
was a great benefit, but, in order to render it safe, proper given before the Committee by Mr. Kennedy, a Scotch
securities should be taken. Those precautions were banker, to prove that it was usual for banks to restrict
such as would give paper as much as possible the value their issues according as the rate of the exchanges created
-of gold, by subjecting it to the same regulations. There a drain of bullion from the Bank, and that such a restric-
should be as much paper as was just necessary, and no tion in the issue did not cause a loss to the Bank on ac-
more, and previous deposits of bullion equal to the count of the increased rate of interest the Bank ob-
amount of paper required should be made. This tained. He did not think that any Bill, or any plan,
would ensure convertibility ; but something more than would put an end to all spsculation and overt:trading, and
convertibility was required. That would provide means rashness in commercial matters. But because he could
of circulation, but it was inadequate to check paper be- not do that, it was no reason he should not
ing put into circulation. Thera were other checks, no try to do all in his power to check it, which could only
doubt, such as the fear of consequences ; but there be done by a proper regulation of the circulation of the
were not the same checks as existed in a metallic circu- country. Experience preyed that the convertibility of
lation, for bullion had to be taken to the Mint, and it notes alone was not sufficient to check this over-specu-
they applied the same check to paper, they took all the lation e• their system of currency must, from time to
security that could be required. The most proper course time, be regulated in its amount. Such an operation,
they could adopt was, in his opinion, to require deposits and such an operation alone, would provide for their
of bullion previous to the increase of the paper circulation, permanent security ; and as far as the measure of the
Up to 1833, all that the Bank of England required was Right lion. Hon. Gentleman was based on this principle,
to have good commercial securities ; but, in 1833, a new he should, as approving that principle, give it his un-
rule was adopted, which was a nearer approach to sound qualified support.
principle, and it was, in point of fact, that which the Sir W. CLAY said that he should have thought the
Right Hon. Baronet adopted. Beginning from the year monetary condition of the country, as well as the state
1832, during the eight years in which that rule was in of public Opinion, might have justified the Right Hon.
operation, the difference between the highest and lowest Gentleman in carrying out his principles more boldly,
amount of security was 10,804,0001., and that between by extending the measure to Scotland and Ireland, and
the highest and lowest amount of bullion was 8,178,0001., applying regulations there with regard to the small
and the difference between the highest and lowest notes. But he was willing to admit that the
amount of circulation was 3,334,0001. That which Right Hon. Gentleman was better qualified to
ought to vary, varied to the amount of three millions ; form an opinion on this point than himself.
and that which oht not to vary, varied to the He agreed with the Right lion, Gentleman in thinking
amount of 10,800,000 The rule, which was suited to that if they left the country banks without control, their
ordinary circumstances, was found to be broken through circulation would expand as the Bank of England
when a pressure came. lie was convinced of the in- contracted, which was formerly _the case. The measure
justice of the attacks which had been made against the of 1819 established as a basis of the monetary system
Bank directors. Whatever they did, it was from a con- the principle of the constant and unvarying convertibi-
viction that it was the best for the public, uninfluenced lily of the paper currency. The proposed measure re-
by say consideration of private interest. Still less did cognised the same principle, but enforced the necessity
he blame the issuers of country banks. They acted of the issues being placed under strict control, and not to
upon no rule. They did not profess to regulate their be entrusted to those who might profit by its abuse.
issue by any particular rule. Mr. Hobhouse, in his The Hon. Member then quoted extracts from the letter
evidence, stated of the country bankers that they never of the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States to
pretended to exercise any power over the circulation. Congress in 1836, showing how great the circulation of
The consequence was, that while the aggregate paper was immediately before the great stoppage of cash
circulation increased largely only from March, payments in that country. lii 1830 the notes in circus
1838, to. September in the same year, the lation amounted to 60,000,000 of dollars ; in 1834
country issues increased largely from the former period to 75,000,000; in 1835 to 87,000,000; in 1836 to
up 'to June 1839. They were at a minimum when 106,000,000 dollars, and in 1837 it reached the enor-
bullion -was at a maximum, and they were at a maximum mous extent of 120,000,000 dollars. The Hon. Member
when bullion decreased six per cent. He believed that also read an extract from the President's Message, in
the principles laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman which he noticed the over-action in every department of
were sound as far they went, and the question really trade—the excessive speculation and the increased issue
was by what means they could introduce principles still of paper money—which latter the President assigned as
.sounder. He believed that the power of the public over the cause of the two former results, saying that in
a paper circulation would be just what it was over a America, as in England, the excessive issue of Bank
metallic circulation. But he was bound to say the Right paper had been the cause of the great monetary ember-
. Hon. Gentleman was entitled ..to the credit of having rassments which had at different periods happened in
brought forward an eminently practical plan. There both countries. lie (Sir William Clay) did not think
were other considerations connected with the matter, it necessary that one of them of the amount circulated
but taking the plan as far as it went, he was by the country banks should be held in bullion at pre-
bound to say it was eminently practical.—(Hear.) sent. The security against over-convertibility must rest
It was impossible that a drain should happen when the upon other grounds. He would suggest that it be al-
bullion was so low, although the knowledge that it was low able to the bank-of issue to give bullion at something
so might tend to increase the drain. On the whole, less than 3/ 17s. 10Id. •To the merchants who wished to
taking all the cireumstatices of the case into considera- export gold in ingots, this would' be very desirable; be-
tion, he felt bound to say that although at first he felt sides, some allowance should be made for the expenses
some doubts upon the subject, he was not all prepared of coining, which were considerable. He did not agree
to quarrel with the amount of security. It was exceed- with some Hon. Gentlemen in thinking that any addi-
ingly desirable that persons should be aware what was tional power would be conferred on the Bank of Eng-
the first apparent drain in the returns of the circulation, land by the present measure, which bethought would
'least any alarm' should be excited in the public mind. rather diminish than augment the power it at present
He believed there were about twenty-one millions of notes possessed. At a certain appropriate time he intended to
in circulation—he believed rather more indeed. The introduce a resolution for the consideration of the
first returns "for the. issuing department would show an House—that it be permitted to create and charter country
apparent increase of bank notes to the amount of nine banks, on condition of their paying up three-
millions. That amount would rather startle the public fourths of the capital they proposed to commence
unless they were apprised that the increase would be upon; and that there be an annual or semi-an-
ntore in.appearance than in reality. What each depart- I nual publications of the accounts of such Bank.
ment did -with these notes would, of course, appear in I He would only repeat what he had already stated, that
the fettirns ;he was only anxious that the public should this plan had, generally, his cordial approbation.
be apprised that there would be an increase of ' Mr. S. WORTLEY expressed his almost entire con-
nine' millions in the Bank circulation.—(Hear.) currence in. the plan proposed by the Right Hon.
He now came to the exceptional pewee of increasing Baronet, the object of which was, as stated by his lion.
the issue upon depositing security, and he was willing Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. C. Wood), to in-
that this should take place in the cases stated by the troduce additional security for the amount of the
Right 1-16 n. Gentleman. The House was willing that, so invariable standard. He was strongly of opinion
long as the Right Hon. Gentleman was Prime Minister that of all the measures which had been proposed, that
of this country. This power should remain with him of the Right Hon. Gentleman was, on the whole, the
—(1-Tear, hear)—but before he had got out of doors, best that could be adopted. The great feature in this
after listening to the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposal, plan was the separation of the Bank of England into two
he was told that this was considered in the Bank parlour departments. This was the more necessary, as it was
sometimes difficult for the management at the Bank to
an exceedingly convenient mode of increasing the issue !
whenever the Bank might desire. He thought that was decide between its duty to the public and its private
a most serious objection to the proposal, and the objec- interests. It was impossible to invest the Bank of Eng-
tion was stronger when the power was in the hands of land with the power which this measure gave it, unless
the Government than when it was in the hands of the it was rendered independent of those influences to which
Bank. Let them only imagine a weak Government pro. it might be subjected as an ordinary 'banking establish-
ceeding to exercise the power, and he felt sure they ment. He alluded to the separation of the issue depart-
would conclude that must be most dangerous ;in fact, it ment from the banking department, and ren-
might take away the very essence of the present plan, dering the former a self-acting institution, by
which was itself a check to issue. However, he . which the amount of exchanges would be
thought the alteration proposed by the Right Hon. regulated. His Honourable Friend, the Member for
Gentleman tended materially to remove this objection. Halifax, had very properly observed that the amount of
He confessed he did not tee the netteesity for such an'' circulation would be increased apparently by this plan,
arrangement. It was quite clear that so long as because the whole of that amount of treasure in reserve
tution was made out of the reserve the Bank would gain by the 'Bank, which exceeded the present amount of cir-
the whole profit of the transaction, but if it was obliged culation, would be transferred to the issue department
to obtain notes by depositing, a larger amount of security from the deposit department, so as to be exchanged into
the whole profit would go to the Government. The _ notes. The Right Hon. Baronet alluded to the subject
Bank had no inducement to come to the (lov,srnment - of breneb banks, with regard to which he (Mr. S. Wort-
to obtain that power so long as they had in their own ley) put a question to him on a former occasion. He
hands a sufficient supply of notes to enable them to make was sorry to find that the Right Hon. Baronet did not
the substitution. He quite agreed with the Right Hon, think proper to interfere to prevent the extension of
Gentleman as to the propriety of the Government in not branches. Ile knew no greater source of risk
cenueuniegting with those parties whose own interests than the extension of branch banks, and not
were more immediately concerned,' and he thought it only of branch banks, but what were called
highly creditable tQ the Right Hon, GM!m ,
e
an and his agencies," which were in many cases at a great dis-
colleagues that they had shown every diees:sitieri to
tense from off, centred issuing bank, The Right
amend the law as far as amendment was required, He Hon. baronet proposed that there should be a
thought it was exeeedipgly desirous that banks should payment of 301. on the establishment of every branch
know what was the amount ,of the not -in- reserve at bank. lie did not think that would be any effectual
the Bank of Fngland. There was an immense money!cheek, and he thought that some more powerful check
power its the Bentsat that moment, if it ought to Pe eed might bp devised. He wished to call
Government to another point, viz.,
had in reserve nine iniilion4 In9neY
that he thought in notes, the attention
There might bo buraeme ewe of wiixe# /Ad - they
ought tit, hold out sows •Orotqr }ll4
. . .

ducem eat to johit-stock banks to accept the circulation
of Bank' of England notes than the payment of one per
cent., which he thought was too small to induce those
banks to suppree:s their own circulation and adept that
of the Bank of E nglarid. lie was glad that the Govern-
ment had taken :.this opportunity of proposing this plan
to Parliament, and he should be sorry if they allowed it
to pass by without ;making an attempt to place the cur-
rency on a sounder footing. The greatest credit was due
to the Right Hon. Baronet for the manner in which, in
conformity with his character as a statesman, he proposed
this measure, which would secure great advantage to the
country without disturbing those habitual arrangements
which subsisted in many parts of the country. He must
say he thought it was perfectly right, that in consenting
to allow private issuers who existed at present to con•
tinue their issues, a necessary limitation was imposed
upon them of confining their issues within a certain
amount ; but it was also right that those on whom these
privileges were conferred should be treated with ten-
derness, and that there should be no risk of shaking the
public credit or public enterprise and industry, which
their suppression would give rise to. He was glad that
this opportunity of making a change was not passed by,
because the time was not far distant when its principle
would be testsd. In many parts of the country
those same causes which had produced the crisis
they had seen before were coming int) operation, and
it would be matter of great interest to observe the effect
which an alteration of this kind would have on such
transactions as those he alluded to. If the plan suc-
ceeded and had the effect of mitigating those fluctuations
and changes which they before experienced, he would
have the comfort of performing a benefit towards the
country which would do him the utmost credit, and for
which he would receive, sooner or later, the thanks of
the country.
Mr. P. M. STEWART said that, while he was will-
ing to pay homage to the general plan proposed by the
Right Hon. Baronet, yet he felt it his duty at this early
stage to call attention to one or two points which, if
adopted, would, he thought, have the effect of making it
more complete. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet
had acted wisely in not interfering with the one-pound
note circulation of Scotland and eland, which would
only have brought a hornet's nest about his ears—he
thought he had acted better in limiting the measure to
England and Wales in the first instance. There was a ge-
neral rumour that it was the intention of the Government
to establish, sooner or later, one bank of issue through-
out the country. There was also a report
out of doors that tho outline of this mea-
sure had been drawn by the late Govern-
ment, and that it had been completed by the pre-
sent Government, and he confessed that he was con-
firmed in that impression from the manner in which it
had been received in the House. This measure was an
experiment and nothing better ; it was a new doctrine in
the country, and was not propounded by those great
names to which they were accustomed to adhere, so that
they should regulate the circulation by one branch of
issue. The Bullion Committee propounded no such
doctrine ; it was a doctrine of the modern school, which
like many others required to be well watched. His
Proposition was based on the opinions of those who were
called the philosophers amongst the witnesses who were
examined,while all the practiCal men and bankers who gave
evidence before the Committee stated that one bank of
issue would be most inexpedient. At a meeting which
was held the other day, and was attended even by
bankers who issued Bank of England notes,
a resolution was come to, adopting the lan-
guage of the general meeting which was held
in 1840, that such a measure would be inexpedient.
There was one expression made use of by the Right
Hon. Baronet that night which put the matter beyond
doubt in his mind. It was, to reduce the circulation to
one system. But it was evident that the same dangers
which threatened us before 1825 were impending upon
us now.—(Hear, hear.) He would not occupy the House
at that time of the night in going into a discussion of the
details of the question. It seemed to him that the plan
of the Right Honourable Gentleman was compounded
of the plan of 1819 and that most objectionable plan of
1837. All that he wished to impress upon the
House and the Government was, that they should not
take such measures as would prevent them from return-
ing to the present system if they should find it necessary.
The proposition which was made to the Government by
the country and provincial bankers was, that they should
raise the issues to a larger amount for the country banks
than was allowed by this project. The average of the
circulation of the last two years ought not to have been
taken as the maximum of the future circulation, but
as the average. It was absurd to look to
the foreign exchanges as the test for regulating the cir-
culation of the country. But the Right Hon. Baronet
had argued against the principles which he had himself
propounded.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stewart) inferred
that it was the intention of the Minister to extinguish
altogether the present country circulation ; but they
would greatly inconvenience the public by stopping that
circulation.
An Hox. MEmnEa—The circulation of joint-stock
banks.

But the private bankers were not compelled to look a
them except as a matter of curiosity. He might be told
that it was better to leave this without regulation ; but
the evils of an over-issue were just the same, whether
they arose from the Bank of England or from the pri-
vate banks. He contended that it was the system they
ought to amend, and they ought to endeavour to place
the circulation of the country under proper regulation.
If there was a tendency in the plan towards establishing
one bank of issue, he thought the principle on
which they were proceeding ought not to be concealed.
He concurred in the opinion that the safest course was to
have only a single bank of issue, and thought nothing
could be more unsafe than unrestricted competition,
which had already been the means of a great crash in
the monetary affairs of this country. He admitted that
the Right Hon. Gentleman could not carry his principle
to the full extent, but he thought the principle, on the
whole, a right one, and hoped the Right Hon. Baronet
would persevere in it. For the details of the measure
he would reserve further remarks, but could not sit down
without saying that he would give the Government plan
his honest support.—(Cheers.)
Mr. PLUMPTRE • said there were some principles
propounded in the measure in which he concurred, but
he feared the plan would cause a contraction of the cir-
culation, and lead to the reduction of prices. If that
would be the effect, he was sure the Right Hon. Baronet
would be the first to withdraw it.
Mr. MUNTZ said he would not have made any re-
mark, but that he had been alluded to by the lion.
Member for Halifax. He never said what he did not
believe, and never wrote anything he was ashamed to
put his name to. He had, however, been misquoted on
this subject. He had given the greatest atten-
tion to the matter, and had read every
authority worth reading on the currency ques-
tion—Locke, Smith, Harris, M'Culloch, and Ri-
cardo—and read them, too, before the Right Honourable
Baronet had done so.—(Laughter.) Yes, when the
Right Hon. Baronet was Secretary for Ireland. The
Right Hon. Baronet would not, he believed, carry out his
principles. He (Mr. Muntz) would agree in them pro-
vided the Right Hon. Baronet would make the prices
of land and its produce the same as before the change of
currency had taken place. It was very natural that
Hon. Members on that side of the House should support
the Government proposition, because it would lower
prices, and :tend to accelerate the repeal of the corn-
laws ; but how was it that Hon. Members opposite could
support the Government plan? He professsed he was at
a loss to understand the motive upon which they acted.
—(Hear, hear.) Why those Hon. Gentlemen wished to
have corn 50 per cent. higher in this country than on
the Continent. The Right Hon. Gentleman had been
very pleasant upon 'some remarks he (Mr. Muntz) had
addressed to his constituents in Birmingham, but he had
not advocated those principles which the Right
Honourable Baronet represented as his. If the
Right Honourable Baronet fully carried out the
principles he now propounded, there could be
little rent paid and less taxes, for a general depreciation
of the produce of land, and of land itself, would be the
result. It was said the country banks were regulated
by exchanges. This was a great mistake--he did not
believe one in fifty of these country banks understood
anything about foreign exchanges. How could they
regulate the issues by foreign exchanges ? He thought
the Right Hon. Barones had encumbered the measure by
unnecessary machinery. If the country banks were
allowed to manage their affairs without the interference
of her Majesty's Government, or her Majesty, both of
which were unnecessary, the whole would be regulated
without any other assistance. He asked the Right Hon.
Baronet to consider this minutely. He did not think it
was right that the banks of issue and the banks of
business should be under the same roof and direction.
He thought that both should be kept entirely separate,
and that the Bank of England ought to be a bank of
business. There were two other points to which he
wished shortly to allude. In all instances of panic, he
never knew any instance in which the Bank took early
measures to contract their issues, and it was not fair to
control the country banks when the Bank had not taken
the proper masures to preserve themselves and the other
banks. Then the Right Hon. Gentleinan talked of
persons ruining themselves by unwise speculations, and
instanced a case of a person who had been ruined by
speculating in Spanish Bonds. How could the Right
Hon. Baronet prevent persons from speculating as they
wished ? He thought the Right Hon. Baronet was
bound to carry out his principle completely, and not say
he would do so. They would then see whether the
measure was sound or unsound. If Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, who were landlords, supported the Bill, no other
person had any reason to complain.
Mr. C. BULLER said he would briefly state the rea-
sons which made
shim reluctant to admit the merits of
the Bill. His opinion was, that the measure would not
have the effect of placing the commercial transactions of
the countryon a sounder footing, which was the object of
it, but would substitute more unsafe forms of credit than
existed at present. There seemed to be a great con-
fusion between sound principles of banking and sound
principles of currency ; and the machinery of the mea-
sure was directed to regulating the circulating medium.
The Right Hon. Baronet said it was necessary to con-
trol the issues of private banks ; but when he came to
say what were banks of issue, and what were not, it
seemed to him that his argument tended more against
the system of banking, and that the mischief to which
he referred arose from a different cause than the issue of
notes by private banks. All the arguments which he
had heard had not convinced him that the question had
been fully considered. He thought that the public
ought to have the privilege of investing their money in
what bank they pleased.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that it would be for the
public to consider in what institution it would place its
confidence. Although the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham was not pleased with the measure of the Govern-
ment, he was glad to see that he had no strong measure
to propose against it. In answer to the Hon. Gentle-
man's question, how far the extension of the principle of
the Act of 1819 was carried out by the system of issue,
he (Sir R. Peel) did not admit that this was an exten-
sion of the principle of the Act of 1819. It was a comple-
ment of that Act—it was a measure fulfilling that Act;
but it was not an extension of the principle of it. The
Act of 1819 recognised the principle that there
should be a standard of value in this coun-
try, and that that standard should be gold
that he who issued his paper should be obliged to fulfil
his engagements, and pay his paper in gold. The mea-
sure which he (Sir R. Peel) now proposed did not carry
that principle further. His answer to the question of
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate) was, that there was a
standard of value, and that that standard was a definite
quantity of gold of a certain finenes—that it was intended
that that should be the measure of all worth. The per-
son who issued paper promised to pay, on the face of
that paper, a certain amount of gold. • That paper, there-
fore, ought to conform to the gold. He admitted to his
Hon. Friend that there might be, for a time, by that
measure, a limitation in prices ; but all increase in prices
that arose from an excess of paper was illegitimate, and
could not be permanent. There was no advantage from
any increase of price that arose from an issue of paper
beyond the value of the metal they represented. He
brought it to this simple issue : supposing they depre-
ciated their paper, and their paper was still convertible
into gold, would not every man who had a right to insist
on 5 sovereigns for a Si. note, exercise that right, the
moment he found the gold more valuable than the
paper ? The moment Mr. Rothschild found that
500,000 sovereigns were more valuable than 500,0002 in
notes, would he not immediately convert his notes into
gold, and would not every man act in like manner ?
Among a competition of issues there might for a time
be an increase of price, but all experience showed that a
re-action would ensue, and that by a sudden contraction
of the currency, prices were again reduced. His answer
then was that no increase of prices caused by an issue of
paper beyond its value in gold could be of the sligh_test
advantage to the country. The effect of Oda measure
would be to compel an early contraction, to prevent
sudden rises and sudden falls. He contended that equality
of price was a much greater advantage than any sudden
rise or fall. The moment they removed the convertibi-
lity they found the number of private banks increased.
In the year 1797 there were only 240 private banks,
whereas when all convertibility was removed, they in-
creased to 800, so much importance did they attach to
inconvertibility.
Lord WORSLEY said that there had been great
fluctuations of the issues in the rural districts, particu-
larly in Lincolnshire, and he thought, therefore, it would
be only fair, that instead of taking the last two years
as the period within which the circulation of notes should
be the criterion of the future issue of the country banks,
it should be extended to five or six years. He thought
that the banks in the country ought to be enabled to
issue notes to as great an extent as they had ever done.
Mr. DARBY agreed with all the Right Hon. Baronet
had said as to a metallic currency ; but the question
with him was, whether what was proposed would not so
far contract the issues as to lead to the reduction of
prices?

Mr. P. M. STEWART—But, in interfering with
the m, you would interfere with the general circulation
—(Hear, hear)—of the banks beyond sixty-five miles
out of London.—(A conversation then took place
across the table respecting the effect of the re-
striction, which was not cleary heard in the gallery.)—
If restrictions had iidt existed, there would not hare been
those evils which had been complained of. He offered
his sincere acknowledgments to the Right Hon. Baronet
for the straightforward manner in which he had met the
claims of the joint-stock banks. He offered his ac-
knowledgments, not for what the Right Hon. Baronet
had done, but for for the manner in which he did it. The
whole body of joint-stock bankers whom ho (Mr. P.
Stewart) so unworthily • represented, felt it very much.
In the points which he had stated he knew ho was open
to correction, and he foresaw he would meet with that
correction, but then he had thrown out his ob-
servations for the purpose of rendering the application
of the Right Hon. Baronet's plan more readily practical,
and in making the propositions which he had sub-
mitted, he considered be was only doing his duty. The
Right Hon. Baronet's was a bold patriotic plan, but
like all human propositions, it had its faults, and it was
their duty who thought they could amend it, to propose
whatever they thought would be effective for that pur-
pose. It was from such a sense of duty that he had
made his suggestions.
Mr. M. GORE referred to the years from 1825 to
1827 inclusive, to show the evil effects of an excessive
paper issue. With respect to the measure of the Right
Hon. Baronet, it hadihis most cordial support, because
he thought it proceeded upon the just principle that
money was a commodity which, like all other commodi-
ties, was influenced in its value by supply and demand.
It had been said that this measure would depreciate
prices, but he doubted whether the depreciation of prices
was an evil. Much discussion had taken place with
respect to bullion, but upon that point he thought
no great danger was to be apprehended. He
believed that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government had acted most wisely in not attempting to
lower the standard of value. Many of the charges now
brought forward against the Right Hon. Baronet were
brought against the Ministry of 1796, when it was at-
tempted to place the currency of the country upon a
proper footing. He should support the proposition of
the Right Llon. Baronet at the head of the Government.
Mr. GISBORNE knew that any person who came
forward as the advocate of free trade in money was the
subject of great animadversion. He adhered to the pound
as prescribed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. That the
amount of currency operated upon the price of commo-
dities had never been satisfactorily established in his
mind. He believed that what was currency had never
been properly defined except in the Latin—quod rover
--quod übique—quod inter omnes. He would reserve to
himself the right of objecting to this measure in the
other stages. He would say at once that his objection
to this meesure arose from his belief that it would have
a tendency to lower the range of prices in this country,
and that it would have a tendency to supersede bullion
for paper to a greater extent than now existed in circu-
lation. Ile did not believe that the Bill of the Right Hon.
Gentleman of 1819 had fixed a right standard, but he did
not impute to that measure the destitution and misery
which had since resulted to the country, so much as to
other measures which accompanied it. The Bank of
England had at the present time a most convenient
amount of gold lying in its coffers. Why did it not
employ that gold ? Because it could not force upon the
country a currency which it did not want. This was a
time of great speculation, yet the Bank of England
could not expand the currency, and he believed it would
never be able to do so without increasing its security.
A great part of what they called circulation was nothing
more than capital. The Bank would now be relieved of
all responsibility with regard to the issues—that was a
responsibility which he thought they ought never to
have had. lie did not give implicit confidence to the
names that had been quoted. They were to be judged of
with some reserve. When the time came he should be
prepared to oppose the plan.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, he rose to call the atten-
tion of the Right Hon. Baronet to one point on which
he should wish him to give an opinion. He believed
that there was something in the plan that might
prove injurious to the productive capital of the
country. He believed that the amount of the cir-
culation of the country materially affected prices.
The point he wished to submit to the atten-
tion of the Right Honourable Baronet was this
—how far the extension of the principle of the
Bill of 1619, as carried out by the alteration of the sys-
tem of issue and the alteration of the banking establish-
ment, as proposed by the Government, will, by limiting
the amount of the circulating medium to the average of
the last two years, without reference to the production
of this country, affect prices ? For, if the quantity
of produce increased, and the amount of money remained
the same, would not prices fall in proportion to the in-
crease of that production ? This point he could assure
the Right Hon. Baronet was well worthy his con-
sideration.

In answer to a question from Mr. T. BARING,
Sir R. PEEL said he thought they might assume that
the Bank of England would have an interest and desire
to prevent fluctuations in the amount of their notes, and
they would desire, unless accompanied by a sacrifice to
themselves, to extend their own circulation. Supposing
the Bank f England had a surplus of notes in its coffers
for which it had no means of profitable employment, the
Bank of England in that case would employ with profit
a portion of its notes in taking a substitution for coun-
try bank paper. Supposing that six millions of Bank notes
were lying in the Bank of England without profit, clearly
it would be advantageous to the Bank of England to
substitute two millions of country bank paper for
two millions of Bank of England paper lying in
their coffers, without profit. Supposing, on the other
hand, that there was no surplus of Bank notes in the
banking department of the Bank of England, it would
not be obligatory on the Bank of England to substitute
their notes for country bank paper. Supposing again,
that the Bank of England wished to gain a
control over the circulation and desired to extend its issue,
and could not extend its issue by applying the notes
of the banking department, in that case it would make
application to the Government to substitute its own
notes for country bank paper, and thus they would he
able to increase their notes on security. The Privy
Council might, if they thought fit, sanction that measure,
but there would clearly be a profit to the Bank of
England in making those notes on securities.
The resolutions were then agreed to.
Sir W. CLAY gave notice, that he would, in a future
stage of the measure, propose an amendment on the last
resolution relating to joint-stock banks.
In answer to a question from an HON. MEMBER,
Sir R. PEEL said he hoped the Government would
be able to introduce the Bill before the Whitsuntide
holidays, and he proposed that the Bill should take ef-
fect as soon as it was poisibre' to make the required se-
paration in the two departments. The Directors wore now
separ
occupied in taking every necessary step for effecting the
ation. . • .
Thb' House then resumed, and the report wa4 ordered
obe sbrou.o to-morrow,

Mr. F. BARING expressed his satisfaction that the
Government had followed up the principles on which
the late Government was prepared to have legislated on
this subject. Those gentlemen who had opposed the
plan all seemed inclined to slip out of the consideration
of the position in which the country was at present
placed. He should be happy to learn from them on
what principles they thought the issues of the country
ought to be carried on in the present state of things. In
the last arrangement of the Bank Charter by his Noble
Friend, Earl Spencer, two principles were laid down.
There was in the arrangement a regulation by which it
was supposed that the Governor and Directors of the
Bank would in future conduct their issues, and at the
same time (and for the first time) it was provided
that tho aYPrfig@s of these issues and of the
amount of the bullion in the Bank should be
published, in order that the
,private banks, might
according to those returns, regulate their issues. But
as far as legislation was concerned, they had no
power of enforcing that publieatton by the Bank.
Then it was said that the purpose of the publication'Of
ccoßts 194 tq dudet4e untie biinliers tioir issue.

Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills.
GOLD AND SILVER WARES BILL.
The House went into Committee on this Bill.
Several clauses had been agreed to without discussion,
when--
Mr. WARBURTON said there were great objections
to the Bill ; it gave a jurisdiction to the Goldsm.this
Company in country districts which it did not before
possess..
Mr. GLADSTONE stated that the objections alluded
to had been removed, from the Bill in iti present form.
After a few words from Mr. WARBURTON,
The Bill went through Coinmittee; report on Friday.

CUSTOMS' DUTIES 'Bal.
On the Order of the Day for the further consideration
of the Report on the Customs' Duties Bill being read,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said there was one principle
introduced into the Bill which was so objectionable that,
unless it. was struck out, he could not consent to the
progress of the Bill at that hour. It was proposed to
make the proprietois of wharfs responsible for any
smuggling that .might occur on them. This was the
business of - the Custom-house
,officers themselves.
Unless the Bill was delayed, he must take the sense of
the House upon the clause.
Mr. GLADSTONE then postponed the consideration
of the report till this day. •
On the motion for the Ecclesiastical Courts' Bill going
into Committee,
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to have the day fixed
on whiCh this Bill would be again brought under the
consideration of the House.
Sir J. GRAHAM fixed it, with the consent of the
House, for Friday next.
The West India Relief Bill was then read a third
time and passed.
It was then moved that a new writ be issued for Chi-
chester in the room of Lord Arthur Lennox, who. has
become one of the Lords of the Treasury.
Lord JOHN MANNERS moved for the nomination
of a Select Committee on Mortmain:—Lord John Man-
ners, Mr. Shaw, Mr. Nichol], Mr. Charles Buller,
Viscount Clive, Mr. Smythe, Mr. Brotherton, Sir George
Grey, Mr. Eliot Yorke, Mr. James Wortley, the Earl of
Arundel and Surrey, Sir John Yarde Buller, Mr.
Milnes, Mr. Sotheron, and Mr. Dickinson.
The Committee was appointed accordingly.
HOLDING OF VESTRIES IN CHURCHES.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
prefent the holding of vestries in churches, which was
read a first time.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at Half-past One o'Clock.

---
THE NATIONAL TEMPERANCE
SOCIETY.
Yesterday evening the annual general meeting of the
•friends and supporters of this Society was held at
Exeter Hall. George, W. Alexander, Esq., Treasurer of
the Society, in the chair.
Among the gentlemen on the platform we observed
Di. Lovell, Dr. Oxley, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Julius
Jeffreys, F.R.S., W. Janson, Esq., W. Cash, Esq., Jas.
Day, Esq., and John Hill, Esq.
The CHAIRMAN said, that feeling his inadequacy to
fill the important office of Chairman so worthily as
many of the gentlemen- there present, he rejoiced that
his duties would be comparatively light, as the object of
the Society would be eloquently explained by the
speakers who. would follow him. It would be needless
for him to explain the vast importance of that Society.
Its object was to remove intemperance from
every land on the face of the earth. It was , notorious
that England, notwithstanding its many noble institution's,
and the strong hold which religion had upon the minds
of its people, was yet degraded by its intemperance;
nor has that intemperance been confined to herself; she
has disseminated the same in every part of the globe to
which her ships have sailed. Till within the last four
years there was no immediate check upon this great
evil. It was a cheering fact, however, that at
length some light had dawned upon the darkness
which had so long enveloped our country, for that
Society had in some measure succeeded in removing
evils which hitherto had appeared to be incredible.
It was a cheering circumstance that, in the United
States of America, which contained a population of
16,000,000, above 4,000,000 were connected with tem-
perance societies, while another fourth acted partly, if
not wholly, upon temperance principles. That reforma-
tion had scarcely a parallel in modern times. However,
he hoped the country would flourish in another respect,
and ere long sweep away the stain of slavery. He hoped
that they would copy the example of England in libe-
rating those persons whom they at present Rept anti sold
as chattels. But he would not wander from the subject
He believed that there was no place in which a tempe-
rance society had been established, where it had not
been the means of producing great improvements in the
general character and habits of the people, and reducing
the number of idle and profligate drunkards. Those
were objects well worth the support and consideration of
every enlightened Christian. Before sitting down ho
might be permitted to state that while he earnestly re-
commended that Society to the fostering care of every
Christian, he would by no means wish to be understood
as placing it on a level with the Gospel. Religion was
necessary to the welfare of a future state, but tempe-
rance tended to benefit their physical condition, and led
them seriously to consider their duty to God and their
fellow-men. He would not enlarge further upon the
subject, but call upon the Secretary to read extracts
from the report.
The SECRETARY, before reading the report, begged to
inform them that he had received letters of apology from
the Lord Bishop of Norwich, Lord Ashley, the Rev. Pye
' Smith, and the Venerable Thomas Clarkson, the latter
of whom had written a long letter from his bed-ro6in,
expatiating at considerable length on the advantages
derivable from habits of abstemiousness. This letter
the Secretary read to the meeting.
The report stated that the charm of novelty first
attracted the curious and the opposition of individuals to
that Society, and then proceeded to give a brief review of
the state of the temperance cause in different parts of
the world. The United States of America were making
steady progress in the work of reformation. It was
computed that one in four of the population, or above
4.000,000, abstained from all intoxicating drinks, while
another fourth had nearly eschewed them. The im-
portation of spirituous and other liquors had decreased in
a similar ratio ; but it was not all ascribed to the temperance
reformation, part of it being supposed to arise from
commercial changes and tariff regulations. The num-
ber of distillers in the United States in 1810 was some-
what more than 40,000, but in 1840 the number had
fallen to 10,906, and in a few more years, it was hoped,
they would be entirely extinct. In Montreal the prin-
cipal merchants were coming forward in the temperance
cause, recommending temperance marine insurance, and
Cwing preference to vessels not carrying spirits. The
ommittee were glad to state that the principal inhabit-
ants of Montreal had petitioned the Governor of Ca-
nada, Sir Charles T. Metcalfe, K.C.8., praying his
Excellency to refuse all applications for licenses to sell
intoxicating liquors, and respectfully requesting him
to take such steps as might appear best calculated
to suppress the unlicensed and consequently
illegal traffic in these drinks. His Excellency,
in reply, expressed himself fully sensible of the great
blessing conferred on the inhabitants of any country by
abtaining from the use of intoxicating drinks, and pro-
mised to encourage the adoption of any measure calcu-
lated to effect so very desirable an object. In St. John's,
Newfoundland, the temperance cause was progressing,
while in the Bahamas in the West Indies, temperance
societies had been formed of large numbers of the in-
habitants. In Berbice and Bermuda the returns
exhibited a falling blf in the consumption of spirituous
liquOrs, whiet was attributable to the growing habits of
tereneMnee exhibited by the inhabitants. At St. Kitt's a
Fe*,biety bad been formed which already numbered 4,000.
Similar results were reported of Jamaica, the Mauritius,
Montsurat, Antigua, Anguilla, Tobago, &c. In the
Sandwich Islands, New Zealand, China, India, Africa,
Sierra Leone, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Bavaria,
Germany, the cause of temperance had greatly,
triumphed. In Ireland Father Mathew was still en-
gaged in his patriotic efforts among the dissipated por-
tion of his countrymen, while in Scotland and Wales,
large sums of money were subscribed towards advanc-
ing habits of temperance amongst the people. In Eng-
land the consumption of spirituous liquors had decreased,
while the number of persons who had joined temperance
Societies amounted to upwards of 1,000,000. The
receipts of the past year had been 1,0981. 9s. 3d., while
the expenditure had amounted to 645 L 9s. lid., leaving
a balance in the hands of the treasurer of 4921. 19s, 4d.
The Rev. JAMES SHERMAN in moving the following
resolution—" That whilst this meeting regards with
thankfulness the gratifying progress of the temperance
cause, both at home and abroad, as detailed in the re-
port now read ; it at the same time feels bound to ex-
press the conviction, that the efforts hitherto made, have
exposed a mass of evil yet remaining, which calls loudly
for renewed and increased exertions on the part of Bri-
tish philanthropists"—said, that he had spoken so many
heny
times in that Hall during that month, that
.ng before h
them
he ough i
might have been excused from appean
again. His friends, however, thoughtoth otherwise, and he
'did not quite regret the having the opportunity of stat-
ing before the meeting that his heart was still warmly
attached to the good cause.--(Cheers.) He hoped to
live and die a teetotaller.—(Cheers.) Public men, occu-
pying stations such as he had the happiness to do, might
expect to have a great many things said of them, and
some of them not very true, It had been reported of him,
from one end of the kingdom to the other, that he occa-
sionally took a little drop.—(Laughter.) But whoever had
undertaken to state that, he would tell them that for the
last eight years he had not taken the smallest quantity of
liquor of any description excepting when be was Once
deceived' by his medical attendant, who brought in a phy-
sic bottle some alcohol discoloured, so as to lead him to
believe it was medicine. He wished to state
most distinctly to his friends that, his heart was as warm
as it had ever been in favour of teetotalism, and as un-
deviating as ever was he in abstaining from ' intoxicating
drinks. He was anxious that a laig6-portion of the time
of that meeting should be occupied by
gentlemen whose
faces the y had seldom the opportunity
of seeing—gen •
tlemen from the country—gentlemen from distant parts—
some, he understood, from New Zealand and the -United
States of America. He should have desired that the
whole of l'the 'report should have been read to
the meeting, hue still he must say the Secretary
had displayed much good sense in not taxing the
patience of the meeting with it all. To him its details
were most gratifying-, They stimulated him to further
exertions, and be should again enter the haunta.a the
destitute, the houses of the irreligious, awl the_ retreats
of the vicious, to exhibit the benef,ts and advantages of
total abstinence principle,;, ..(-Cheers,) He would not
detain them further, but simply request the meeting to
givi4hOir- serious attention to the gentlemen who would
succeed him, and adopt the resolution which had been
entrusted to his care,-- (Cheers.)
Dr. TuomPs9,N, in seconding the resolution, gam a
detailed
azeount of the progress. of übsta_m!e^:nis habits
amongst the inhabitants of
Lealand. He had been
..ar 1842, in
"44 ia the ."-." care of 400 emigrant* frors