The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-01 00:00:00

CLOVER SEED.

Colonel DAVIES brought up the Report from the Commit-
tee appointed to inquire into the alleged adulteration of Clover
Seed, which declared it to be the opinion of the Committee that
the practice of adulterating clover seed existed to a very consi-
derable extent in this country.
FORGERY PUNISHMENT BILL.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished to move that the
Report of the Foraery- Punishment Mitigation
Bill should be taken into consideration, as he
was anxious that the measure should be disposed
of before the advanced period of the Session
could be considered as forming an objection to
the passin.g of the Bill. • -
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would be
happy to give way, to the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman ; but from the superior importance of the
business which stood for to-morrow, he hoped
the Hon. Gentleman would not press this subject
at the present moment. He must be aware of
the notice which had been given by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and the Budget would
be brought forward under novel circumstances,
if his Right Hon. Friend were to enter on his
general statement of the Ways and Means of the
Country when the Supplies had been voted in the
Committee, but not reported to the House. lie
(the Marquis of Londonderry) should have no
objection to the Report being agreed to now, and
the debate taken on the third reading of the Bill,
if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would con-
sent to such an arrangement. As the Chancellor
of the Exchequer must open his Budget to-mor-
row, and could not do it consistent with the or-
dinary practice of the House till the Report of
the Supplies had been agreed to, he trusted the
Hon. Gentleman would be willing to take the
course that he had suggested.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH would be willing to give
way so the debate could be taken on the third
reading, under such circumstances that the Bill

could be fUlly discussed ; but being in possession
of the House, and many Gentlemen being pre-
sent who were desirous of assisting at the discus•
sion, he could only consent to the postponement
on such an understanding. He wished to state to
the House the amendments he proposed to move.
The Marquis of LoNnoNotany said, if the
'Hon and Learned Gentleman was about to open
his amendments now, he must object to it, and a
qnesiion Might then arise whether his Order of
the Day Ought first to be taken by the House.
The amendments moved, a debate would arise'
which could lead to no practical result, and he
therefore should feel it to be his duty to take the
sense of the House against such a proceeding.
If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had any ar.
guments to offer why his Order of the Day should
be taken first, this might be the most convenient
moment for submitting them to the House.
Mr. ELMS wished to know if the Honourable and:Learned
Gentleman proposed taking the debate on the third reading of
the Bill.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished, if the House agreed to the
.Report pro forma now, to move several new clauses pro forma,
He then wished to have the Bill reprinted, as amended, and
proposed to take the debate on the third reading, which he in-
tended to fix for Monday.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, it could be fixed
for Monday, and subsequently postponed if that should appear
necessary.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH stated his first amendment to be
merely verbal ; his next . went to alter the preamble of the
Bill ; the other amendments which he had to introduce related
either to exceptions or exclusions from the exceptiOns. He meant
to propose that the forging of country Bank-notes, as suggested
by an Hon. Member opposite, should be added to the excep-
tions, and left open to capital punishment. He meant to ex-
clude the forgeries on the private stock of the Bank from the
exceptions, distinguishing that from their public stock, and
placing it-on the same footing with all other private property in
the country. He proposed to do away the punishment of trans-
portation in cases of forgery altogether, and to distinguish the
crime of forgery from others, by making the punishment for
the first offence ten years' confinement, with hard labour ; and,
in cases of uttering, he would give a discretionary power to im-
prison the offender from six to ten years.

An Hon. MEMBER inquired, if it was intended to include
the forging of Bankers' Checks in town and country in the ex-
ceptions ?
Sir J. MACKINTOSH replied, that it was his intention to
allow the exceptions to extend to the circulating currency of
the country, and no other paper whatever.
The MEMBER who had asked the question, said he must op-
pose the Bill.,
The SPEAKER suggested, that the shortest and best way
of amending the Bill, would be to recommit it, for the purpose
of receiving the new clauses. _ _

Sir J.. MACKINTOSH would wish that the Bill should be
recommitted for that purpose.
The Motion was agreed to.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee, in which
the Clauses were moved and agreed to.
The House then resumed, the Report was received, and
the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday. .
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL protested against its being
inferred that he approved of the Bill, from his having suffered
it to pass this stage without opposition.
M
r. CHETYND said, the Bill would meet with his in-
veterate opposition.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH hoped the inveterate opposition of
the Honourable Gentleman would not extend to the larcenies
on Navigable Rivers Bill, which he now moved should be
committed.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY,was sorry to oppose
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but charged as he was with
an important duty, he must object to going through the whole
sexes of these measures.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH would give way with respect to the
Dwelling House Robbery Bill, but he apprehended there would
be no objection to carrying this through the Committee.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought the two Bills
might as well be committed on the same day.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had a decided objection
to the present Bill, and did not see that there could be any se-
rious obstacle in the way of postponing the Committees on both
Bills till Monday, in order to facilitate the dispatch of the public
business.

Mr. F. BUXTON wished to know if these measures were
not to be regarded as forming a part of the public business of
the country.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He would ask if the consi-
deration of life or death—of the increase or decrease of crime
was not
.to be viewed as equally important with measures of
finance.—(Hear, hear !)

Mr. A IIBUtHNOt appealed to the courtesy of the Learn-
ed Gentleman, if it would not be well to give way on this oc-
casion.

Lord MILTON wished to know if the Gentlemen opposite
would engage the Crown should not prorogue the Parliament
till these ttills had passed. He knew the Parliainent would not
be prorogued till the Supplies were voted ; but he did not
know that the prorogation would not take place before these
Bills could pass.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY moved as an amend.
ment that the report of the Committee Of Supply should be
taken into further consideration.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished to know if he were in pos-
session of the House.
The SPEAKER stated the motion which had been made
and the amendment.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that on that side of
the House there was every disposition to act with the most per-
fect candour. No obstruction was intended to be thrown in the
way of the Learned Gentleman's Bills.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH consented to put off both the Bills
till Monday, and the Committees on the two Bills were accord-
ingly postponed till that day.

AUSTRIAN LOAN.

On the Marquess of LONDONDERRY moving
the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of
the Committee of Supply,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said, he wished to
ask a question of the Noble Lord, relative to the
Austrian Loan. He believed his Lordship had
stated on a former occasion, that Austria had
denied the Loan as due to this country ; and also
that the arguments and reasons on which that
denial was founded, were contained in Mr. Gor-
don's Dispatches. As this was a.matter of great
public importance, involving no less a sum than
.17 millions, he wished to know the grounds on
which Austria denied the existence of the debt,
and what objection the Noble Lord had to bring-
ing the papers of Mr. Gordon before the House.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, he did
not think it advisable that, pending a negocia-
tion on the subject, renewed with the Court of
Austria, any disclosure should be made, which
might have the effect of putting one or other of
the parties in a worse situation than before. The
debt he considered to be still good and existing ;
and unless Government gave up the claim, he did
not see why the Noble Lord called on Parliament
to interfere.

Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that the Noble
Lord's answer was very like no answer at all.—
(Hear!)—lf the Government gave up the debt
there would be an end to all negociation, and if
it did not, nothing could be more evident than
that a declaration of the House in support of it
would have the effect of strengthening the argu-
ments by which Government enforced the claim.
(Hear, hear !)—He would therefore give notice
that a motion would be submitted on the subject
in the course of a few days, either by his Hon.
Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr.
B. Smith), or by himself.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY remarked,
that the Noble Lord appeared to think a negoci-
ation with a Foreign Court could be better con-
ducted in Parliament than by the Ministers of
the Crown.
AGRICULTURAL REPORT, &c.

Lord MILTON inquired when it Was likely that
the Report of the Agricultural Committee would

be presented to the House To a question of the
same kind before Easter, it had been answered,
that it would be probably presented in ten days
after the Easter recess, but six weeks had since
elapsed, and rumours were afloat that it would
not be presented -for some time. Considering the
great importance of the question which had so
long agitated the country, he wished to under-
stand whether the Report on this interesting sub-
ject was to be presented in the present Session.
(Hear) hear !)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY stated, that in
the absence of the Chairman of the Committee
(Mr. Gooch), it was impossible
,to say when the
Report could be presented. It was out of the
power of Mal or any other Member of the Com-
mittee to tell that.

Mr. TIERNEY observed, that although the
Noble Lord, as a Member of the Committee,
could not give a direct answer, yet he could give
a shrewd guess on the subject, if he pleased.
Lord LONDONDERRY said he could give no
answer.

Lord MILTON observed, that it appeared they
were to be put off from one day to another, until
the Session was all whiled away.—(Hear !)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that if
the Session was whiled away, the Noble Lord
and his friends could not be accounted blame-
less.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. BENNET observed, that although this ques-
tion agitated all England, from .Scotland to the
Land's-End, yet they could obtain no answer.

Mr. HUSKISSON remarked, that the importance
of the question was the best reason in the world
why a grave Assembly should not come to a hasty
decision upon it.—(Hear I)
The first item in the Report of the' Committee
of Supply was then read :—" That a sum, not
exceeding 43,0711. 12s. Bd., be granted to his
Majesty for defiaying the Salaries to the Master-
General, principal Officers, Clerks, and attend-
ants belonging to the Office of Ordnance, em-
ployed at the Tower and Pall-mall, for the year
1821."

Mr. lIUME objected to the sum as extravagant,
and moved, as an Amendment, that it be reduced
to 27,2711. _
Mr. LOCKHART observed, that the Table was
covered with Petitions complaining of the dis-
tresses of the people. If those Petitions were
well founded, how was it possible to expect that
the people could pay the taxes which they had
heretofore paid ? Those distresses affected prin-
cipally the agriculture of the country ; but through
the agriculture they sapped the foundations of
all the sources of our prosperity. Under the ex-
isting circumstances of the country it was not
merely morally and politically, but it was physi-
cally impossible that the people could continue
to sustain the burdens imposed on them. It was
said that the present situation of things was tem-
porary. He was at a loss to kn6w how that could
be called temporary which had ruined half the
yeomanry of the country, as 'well as half the
other middle and industrious classes of society.
He contended, that not only before the House sepa-
rated, but before they voted away a further shil-
ling of the public money, they ought to have be-
fore them the Report of the Agricultural Com-
mittee ; for of what use was it to vote any
sum until they knew what the ability of the
country was to pay it ? As to the Revenue, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer might boast of rais-
ing a large revenue, but he (Mr. Lockhart)
would-say that it was so much money taken away
from the capital and revenue of the country. He
would, therefore, not vote on the question of
these estimates, because he felt that he should
be voting in the dark, for the country, as far as
he knew, might be utterly unable to bear the
slightest additional burden.
Mr. Ric Arno, as the delay in presenting the
Report of the Agricultural Committee had been
noticed, begged to say that that delay had
arisen from the nature of the inquiry, and not
from any want of diligence on the part of the
Committee, which, on the contrary, he would
venture to say, had discharged the important
duties entrusted to them in a manner highly cre-
ditable to themselves. It was his firm opinion
that the Report would be presented before the
prorogation of Parliament.
Mr. WARRE observed, that the simple state-
ment of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aber-
deen, required no additional comment from him.
He was astonished at the taciturnity of the No-
ble Lord opposite and his Right Hon. Colleague
on these important subjects. He called upon the
Hon. the Clerk of the Ordnance, however, to
rise and explain the reasons which had induced
him to propose the vote in question.
Mr. WARD said, that the real truth why he
had been reluctant to rise was, because he had
before troubled the House repeatedly and at
considerable length on these Estimates, leaving
no one item of them untouched and unexplained.
He would repeat what he had before stated, that
the increased amount of the item under consi-
deration was to be ascribed to the great increase
in the accounts, arising from the addition of the
Ordnance Estimates of Itteland, the Half-pay,
the Colonial Accounts, &c. It was impossible,
even with the, present establishment, to keep up
with those accounts; they were reducing the
arrears however, as fast as possible ; but he
could not hold out any expectation of being
able to propose a diminution in the amount even
next year.

After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT, and
a short explanation from Mr. WARD, the House
divided : • .
For Mr. Flume's Amendment - 72
Against.it - - 93
Majority - - - -—2 l
The Original Resolution was then agreed to.

On the Resolution for granting 20,1631. for the pay of the
Civil Establishments of the Office ofOrdnance, at the outports
and stations ; and also for Rents, Taxes, &c. in Great Britain,
Guernsey, and Jersey, Mr. Hume moved an Amendment to
reduce the grant to 15,1631. which was negatived without a
division.

On the Resolution for granting 14,6311. for the pay of Civil
Officers and Clerks belonging to the Office of Ordnance on fo-
reign stations, Mr. Hume moved an amendment to reduce the
grant to 12,1311. which was negatived without a division.
On the Resolution for granting 56,0001. to defray the inci-
dental Charges, Ordinary Repairs, and Barrack Expences at
the Tower, and the several Forts, Garrisons, and places under
the Ordnance in Great Britain, Guernsey, and Jersey,
Mr. GIPPS moved an Amendment to reduce the grant to
34,0001.

Mr. WARD observed, that if the Hon. Gentlzman would

call at his Office, he would shew him a list of all the items of
whidh the proposed, grant was composed.
Mr. GIPPS replied, that he did not think that would satisfy
the public—(l-fear,/ hear !)—and again pointed out the great
and unexplained increase which had taken place in this part of
the Ordnance expenditure since the year 1817.
Mr. DENMAN said, that he trusted his Hon. Friend
would press his Amendment to a division, were it only to shew
the country that at least some of their Representatives were de-
termined to do. their duty. When at a time of profound peace,
like the present, all pretext for raising or maintaining barracks
being absent, such a grant was proposed,.it was the duty of that
side of the House to resist such a proposition, however small
their numbers, and however hopeless they might be Of success
against the overwhehning majorities which the defeat of his
Honourable Friend's motion that night, for restoring the inde-
pendence of Parliament, was calculated to secure to the Noble
Marquess opposite.
Lord MILTON begged to ask the Honourable Secretary of
the Treasury, whether the expence of the barracks which had
recently been built in the West Riding of Yorkshire was in-
cluded in the present vote ; the Magistrates of that Riding hav-
ing, as he understood, refused to pay that expence ?
Mr. ARBUTHNOT replied, that the disturbances which
had called for the erection of the barracks alluded to by the
Noble Lord having ceased, the Magistrates had certainly ex-
pressed a disinclination to pay for the expence'of their erection,
and therefore Government had made arrangements for defray-
ing that expence.—The House then divided—
Fos the Amendment - -
Against it -
• Majority -
The original Resolution was then agreed to.
On the Resolution for gaming 94,3561. on account of
the Balance, for the Pay of the Royal Regiment of Artillery for
Great Britain, and of non-commissioned officers and gunners
of the late Invalid Battalion, retained in the several Garrisons
and Batteries, for the year 1821, after allowing for a vote of
credit of 150,0001., granted on the 19th April, 1821, making in
the whole 244;3651.,
Mr. HUME re-stated the-objections which he urged in the
Committee to the extent of this Grant, and moved an Amend-
ment to reduce it to 61,8561., which was negatived without a
division.

- 68
- 94
- -26

On the Resolution for granting 8,3771. for the Pay of the
Medical Establishment, for the Military Department of the.
Ordnance in Great Britain,
Mr. HUME moved an amendment to !reduce the Grant 'eu
5,3771.; which wls negatived without a division.
On the Resolution for granting 39,1241., on account of the
Balance of the Extraordinaries of the ()Mee of
.Ordnance for
Great Britain, after allowing for 232,0001. to be raised by the
Sales of Old tores, Lands, Buildings, &c.,
Mr. HUME, in consequence of the cessation of the. Powder
Mills at Feversham, moved, as an AmendmentOo reduce the
Grant to £31,124 ; which was negatived without a division.
- On the Resolution for granting £111,837 for the Charge of
the Office of Ordnance for Ireland,
Mr. HUME moved'. that this grant • be reduced to a Kim of
£71,000. The Amendthent was negatived without a- division.
The original Resolution was then put and earned. -
Upon the Resolution for granting a sum not exceeding
£2,777 4s. 4d. for defraying the expense of Certain AlloWances
to Superannuated and Retired Officers, disabled Men and Pen-
sioners, and to Children of deceased Officers, late belonging to
the several Ordnance Military Corps. in Great Britain, and not
provided for by Parliament, in the year 1320,
Mr. HUME expressed a hope that in future the whole of
those pensions and allowances would be contained in one list.
The House would better see the necessity of this when they
learned that the' whole dead weight upon the country for pen-
sions, superannuations, allowances, ecc. for the Army, Navy,
and Ordnance, amounted at present to-1:4;304,1M He hoped
also that Ministers would use their influence in inducing the
Commander-in-Chief to fill up, as much as possible, -all vacan-
cies in the Army from the half-pay ; this alone would produce
a considerable.saving to the country.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
On the Resolution for granting a sum of 137.5001. for. the
service of the Barrack Department in Great' Britain, for the
year 1821,
Mr. BERNAL moved, as an Amendment, that a sum tot
exceeding 59,5001. be granted forlhe above service.
After a few words from Mr. Arbuthnot, Mr. Maxwell, Mr.
Lockhart, and Mr. Hume, the House divided—
For the Amendment - • -
Ainst it - _ _
• Majority in favour of the original Resolution —43

- 104

Upon the Resolution for granting a sum of 40,0001. for the
service of the Pentientiary, Milbank, for the year 1821,
Mr. LOCKHART objected to this heavy charge upon the
country, and hoped that some more effectual as well as more
.economical secondary punishment might ba devised. •
After a few words from Sir C. Long, Mr. M'. Smith and
Mr. Holford, the Resolution was agreed to.
The Justices of Peace Bill was read a second time, to be
committed on Tuesday.
The Ordnance Lands Bill was read the second time, and ox-
deredto be committed on Monday.

The Report of the Committee on the Irish Inland Navigation
Bill was agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read the third
time to-morrow.

The Lunatic Trusfees Bill was read the second time, and or-
dered to be committed on Tuesday.

The South Sea Trade Bill went through the Committee, and
the Report was ordered to be rseeived to-morrow.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposal of, and tha
House adjourned at TWELVE o'CLoc

A youno- man, under 20 years of age, in tl:e
service of Mr. CORDWENT, of Cometrowe. Farm,
near Taunton, last week threshed with a flail, in
a husbandman-like manner, the extraordinary
quantity of 21 bushels and 1 peck of wheat 10
nine hours and three quarters.

A fox hound, belonging to Mr. T. C. HORNY-
HOLD, Esq. of Blackmore Park, in Worcester-
shire, has actually suckled a fitter of cubs, -which
were deserted by the bitch fvx, and still conti-
nues to nurture them, having pre.viou.,ly lost her
own puppies.

On Monday last, a party of felons from Here-
ford, under sentence of transportation, passed
through Gloucester with colours in their hats,
shouting and huzzaing, with all the spirit of voters
returning from a contested election. These con-
victs were verily Eransporlerl.•
The office of the Earl of D EP, 13 Y. 4 Steward, at
Knowsley, was broken into a few days ago, and
robbed of about 701. in cash. A draw, which at
the time contained upwards of 500J1. fortunately
escaped the notice of the depredators.

BIRTHS.
On Wednesday, the 23d; at Bracondale, Norwich, Mo.
Charles Brereton, of a son.
On the 29th ult., Mrs. H. Cook, of Canonbury, of a son.