The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

per lt
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the
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in 2aY 11a of Great Britain, who, in each year since the
of January, 1839, have suffered corporal pa- and imprisonments ; showing the nature of
tie otff_e_ inces, in classes, fur which such corporal punish-
ben or mprisonment has been awarded, and the num-
the ,111 each class ; stating also the greatest number and
ftitLowest number of lashes inflicted on any . person in
ch
fine Year also, the longest and shortest period of con-
ter !tient awarded as punishment, and the average
Jrlod of confinement for each class in each year.
the number of soldiers who, since the Ist day of
ina--,llarY, 1839, have suffered corporal punishment or
„„r"sonment, and whether either corporal punishment
ZunPrisonment has been inflicted on the same person
fi 01 than once, specifying how often it bas been so in-
-474 and distinguishing numbers in regiments in the
ineLes and possessions of her Majesty from regiments
sr 0,,1448 in Great Britain and Ireland. Of the number
.rr? ral punishments inflicted in the Royal Navy, in
of the years 1839 and 1840 (in continuation of Par-
I.ltarY paper, No. 242, of session 1841).—Agreed to.
Itr err POOR-LAW BILL.
to tb • —'".I,EY COCHRANE begged to put a question
,n 1": Tltight Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the
recd -'-'ePartment. The Right Hoe. Gentleman would
s °llea that when the Poor-law Bill went through its
1:•e°11d reading, it was understood that an early day
stated be fixed for discussing its provisions. It was now
be
that the discussion of the principle of the Bill was
ti; ae deferred till after Easter. He begged to ask who-
7. that was the fact?
J. GRAHAM said the House would remember
•t hat the Factories Bill was introduced before the. New
iot;_;law Bill in the present session, and that it was also
need at an early period of the last session. The
na,, Terries Bill stood now for Friday. -He would suggest to
1J i 1
that the order should be read for the purpose
1J
!sellargi_ng it, and fixing the Bill for Monday next.
the
House had gone into Committee on that Bill,
e Could notaw Bill fix a day for going into Committee on the
'fl Poor-l.
4 a the motion of Mr. FIELDEN leave of absence was
en to General Johnstone until the 20th day of April,
account of ill-health.
b. ROMAN. CATHOLIC CHARITIES.
roast O'CONNELL legged to ask the Right Hon. Ba-
platl' (Sir Robert Peel), whether it was in the contem-
csiZl of the Government to bring in any Bill in the
'0,41 of the present session to alter or amend the law
s;,, tsPect to Roman Catholic charities ?
he ROBERT PEEL said he entertained a confident
is he that her Majesty's Government would be prepared
so Pee
Course of the esent session to bring in a Bill
"carrying h at subject, into effect the object stated by
4hateJesty s Government in the course of the recent
Ba
• O'CONNELL inquired whether the Right
:„"nt had any objection to-his bringing in a Bill with
aret to Roman Catholic charities. All he desired
Mid p 1 bring in a Bill, in order that it might be printed
the 6„aced in the hands of Members. He did not wish
Si R' PEEL
to give their sanction to it.
rEEL said, that if the Hon. Gentleman gave
it th-e of the Bill, her Majesty's Ministers would not feel
stet!. duty to oppose it.
riextth. °'CONNELL then gave notice, that on Monday
the 6 e Would move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend
'414 t-:(S, relating to Roman Catholic charities in Ireland,
ofdt" disposition of property left for the purposes
man Catholic worship.
Si,ItdDA.TION OF PROPERTY (IRELAND).
it I,;aQ",t NRAM NORREYS wished to know whether
incpar, t" intention of the Government to make any
isv-Z. With respect to the present system of valuation
law-ie ad Ss applicable to the purposes of the new poor-
Sir tha.t country.
Btkaa;j4NlES GRAHAM said there was an under-
Wish -ngt lan session, that if it should be the general
the v°f the Members for Ireland in that House, and of
iNtitish Peers in the other House of Parliament, to
tLilte an inquiry into the operation of the poor-law
w' Present session, her Majesty's Government would
itoCierl to that wish. To this statement he adhered.
uertlu-herinZ, however, the large number of Irish Mem-
thou -I'4' were now attending the assizes in Ireland, he
it ‘vc.gut the matter would undergo amore fair discussion if
kibiere, Postponed until after Easter. With respect to the
refit 'valuation to which the Hon. Baronet had
'-ota,„"L, her Majesty's Ministers had been lately in
liter
oill ;,111:I; ieation with Mr. Griffiths, with a view to an
44 ti in the present system, and the adoption of
1
"tlaod`lral system of tenement valuation throughout
t .riq't,rIYTERIAN MARRIAGES (IRELAND).
'°'tili„--I,BERT FERGUSON wished to put a question
res oecretary of State for the Houle' Department,
Ireland,.;_in, a subject of great interest in the north of
meant the question of Presbyterian mi.ir •
'idol The question had been brought uncler the ju-
frokt consideration of the House of Lords, in a case
Ptlittntil,,eCourts of Ireland. The House !night not,
,c)1,11hli be aware that a very considerable difference of
sqN,6-. existed upon the matter among the judges,
Ithe `l,alf.d.the law Lords having given an opinion as to
Z'4l3 Navin of these marriages, and three other law
t'harria;avingr given an opinio.n that they were not valid
'„es• he question which he put was, whether
}i" 4;8 any objection to laying those judgments on
t• thde of the House, and her the Government
up their minds as to whether the Government
up their minds to whether they would pro-
-14()ee e,Yegislation upon the subject, or how they would
1%11
elv TMES GRAHAM said the judgments of the
,'ode
DIES
had been printed for the use of the other
,74ade fAel, Parliament,
,and if a communication were
almataat House, there would be no difficulty in ob-
-7, 'n't eon of those judgments. With respect to the
;•,s etlasd luestioYn put by the Hon. Baronet the facts of
,11(14). e were as he stated them. As yet no unanimous
ellt had been pronounced, and considering that
t here
Was
a variance of opinion amongst the six law
"e presumed that the effect would be that the
th• -A -geB would be affirmed. In that case legislation
'tl4 subject would be indispensable. He had every
Nt° believe that the Committee of the other House
▪ tilklllttnent, to which the Hon. Baronet had adverted,
be re-appointed. Of course be could not tell how
sef,-"lniittee would proceed, but he had no doubt that
N eka ieen consideration would be given to the facts of
)41.(11-TRT OF REQUESTS (BIRMINGHAM.)
‘et. W. O. STANLEY said it would be in the recol-
tl?u of the Rouse that a trial had lately taken place
iTham, in which two prisoners, named James
sNoie„annth John Tayl r were charged before the Re-
assaultingo; police-constable of the name of
14" -outterfield, who had been called in to quell a
,Nta-:allee which had taken place in the Court of Re-
Rohe thP:.ison, in Birmingham, the two persons charged
gaga ssault being at that time confined for debt.
tpt ion he wished to put *to the Right Hon. Baro
e:111, °Me Secretary, was, whether his attention had
134 ed to this trial ? and also whether his attention
11,5rtitt h led to the state of the prison attached to the
-.quests in Birmingham ? and whether he
eo
CDood Ilsent to lay on the table of the House any cor-
's ellee that had taken place between himself and
4it °,lll,er of Birmingham ?
2,spe,.74AHAM said that immediately upon seeing
iintu'' of the trial in the newspapers, he sent
.down
11IsPeetor to investigate the case. That laves-
N luid
upon ,taken place, and a report had been made,
114 tuat report he (Sir James Graham) had been
it,)'%;„BPc`ndencewi th the Birmingham authorities.
11411,1)letrnespondence was not yet completed, but on its
IQ or: he should have no objection to lay it on the
sta7 thttt-o,Rouse. Having said so much he would just
lit"4g.d Home Secretary's power was limited to
I,llterawllinspectors and to receiving reports. He had
w•
10wer.
ItiLtht . • STANLEY wished also to know if the
'4lttr„/n• Baronet had directed his attention to all
fir
.B°,lls throughout the United Kingdom?
e.41-4-r[AM said a general inspection had taken

)i ii,
_it k , PAUPER LUNATICS.
tlicqg i_f ERGUSON wished to put question to the
.I),', t0,'4,,_ the Secretary for Ireland,awith reference to
l'ls'it ,Igement of criminal and pauper lunatics in
-"'lltbto- ,_Re wished to know whether any measure was
tr',Tasci bu,?,. proposed on the subject.j
14'n's ort4t,loT said, that in the course of the recess
to no Report of the Com
leitt , Consider this subject, mittee appointed last
had been sent to each
q,' pers'anatic asylum in Ireland, with a request that
ei, obe h •
IV °pill. aving ekarge of such asylums should give
l%,""11%1/ I%ls of the comparative merits of the different
11,,* ih p.ed:by the Committee.- These Reports were
',,.hoped hands of her Majesty's Government ; and
''v thl4' at no very distant period, to able to in-
''
'1": e---,,?9• Baronet of the conclusion to which the
41
-' had arrived.
?El the POOR-LAWS.
Iqtit,r. ll'or,kotion for going into
.Committee of Supply,
erettt4JRWICK rose and said that he had heard
' hy 08.4lPpointment the answer which had been
ark ' -1),,,t-' /tight Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
1004-Parttaent to his Hon. Friend the Member for
VlNed(lift Cochraneas to the time at which it was
'filtke tliet9n.g? into Committee on the Poor-law Bill.
tll ''Ettlin,'‘lgnt Hon. Baronet moved the second reading
10140 "1.,' he (Mr. Borthwick) did not oppose itspLiss-
tkl.ttiti (Eilrsga that stage sub silentio, on the understanding
N''tik-"fhp°, rtunity would be afforded of discussing and
01,41 Pl'e "Ali into its details, and also of discussing its
oh k" rei,,_lleßi ht Hon. Baronet now proposed to go
nrx,'4\ qbtaet.i. ongthe Factories Bill on Monday next.
as
Ile • allicArdiorthwick) confessed that the time vivro.
t4tpx•eocu when it would not be presumptuous or
of
if‘ 111teN,14 him to remind the Right Hon. Baronet
Act_ ttlk.lialit ts which were affected by the Poor-law
ktful"te. uSay the
most important interests in this great_
I'",, tllion.4l,e said that no time ought to be lost in re
'tik.",,". 1t,t7.„1,,5'e New Poor-law Bill, and he hoped the Right
'litilltlsiol,""t would not allow Easter to pass before theh
!lin") kb; °I the new Bill took place, for he (Mr. Bort -
411::'t a.lv' should that discussion be so delayed, th.at
s! NI `•ssioll would pass over before the Bill would be tik'it Tt• gdered. -
SHAMII/44Ehhe.11a,111 could assure the Hon. Gentleman
4',l4Ct 11,,-4„ sincere a respect for the time of the
!Ik.o, ahli"," lion- Gentleman himself, and, therefore,
i,,i;he i;,' as brief as possible. He could assure him
ti,l,er(los'B:lnfolvfng,
41t,o'siorl'i; 'lO izteans depreciated the importance of a
as it did, the interests of the most
tll44'bro ad most important class in this country. He,.
I,,Etitt Ihtt ed`'Y'lially joined the Hon. Gentleman inlioping
'44tePossihfe's,enasion would be entered into with the
413161' wei,;"eillY• Still, there was another important
14'1-..-°Ylbe,-,ng for discussion, and that was, the
‘4l 'toe 41' of child in factories. He appealed to
4 It q se whet, children .
iNt,,as thc, ~her, on a former occasion, the principle
- th full -
-41tt '''
bees - getails of the Poor-law Amendment Bill
)4'4114 to trit„. y discussed in that House ? He thought
-111
andue to '" expedient course to pursue, therefore,
'Ntl thengo through the Committee on the Factory
.ilkllQ La, to have it printed and circulated through-
tEtslitteelli4tning districts, and after that to go into
t%• • 110„'511 the dote
% 11,Tat„ wished e Poor-la.w Bill.
she 441.14i,titt,Ati
eovvonletlhieto know if there would be
Factories Bill ?
4M said the Bill would go through

Committee, and in Committee he would be ready to
listen to any alterations that might be proposed. He
should then propose that the Bill, with the alterations in
Committee, should be reprinted, not for re-committal,
but in order that it might be circulated throughout the
manufacturing districts. After that was done, he should
propose to take the discussion on the details of the Poor-
law Amendment Bill.
THE RIVER PLATE.

Mr. EWART wished to know if the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet. at the head of .her Majesty's Government would,
on Thursday or Friday next, be. prepared to answer a
question as to whether he could hold out any hope of a
conclusion to the unfortunate state of affairs- which at
present prevailed in Monte Video and the surrounding
country, and whether any measures had been taken to
secure British property therein ?
Sir R. PEEL said he would give all the information in
his power whenever the Hon. Gentleman should think
fit to put his question.
SUPPLY, -

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. WILLIAMS rose, and after apologising for the
shortness of the notice he had given, said he had been

greatly astonished on looking—over the estimates, at
the vast amount of force which it was proposed
to maintain, as well as the enormous sum of money pro-
posed to keep, it up. He found that the ntimber of, men

proposed this year was larger than in any year since
1815, at the time of the battle of Waterloo. lie must con-
fess when he looked at the tranquil state of Great
Britain at the present moment, that this fact did strike
him with great astonishment. The number of men pro-
posed for the efficient service of the country was
129,667, to which were added 10,000 pensioners, for
whom provision was made in the present statement ;
artillery and engineers, 8,1811; marines on shore, 6,000;
the Irish police—he took the number as stated last year,
and he understood that they had since been increased-
-9,000; making altogether an effective military force,
capable of being called into action at any moment, of
163,458 men. This was in the twenty-eighth
year of peace too, and at a time when ber
Majesty had announced from the throne that
sbe was at peace with all nations of the world.
Now some persons, who had not seen the. Irish police
force, would doubt that it was a military force. He
had, however, seen it, and he would confidently say that
he had never beheld a finer or a more efficient body of
men. Before the Committee of the House of Lords
on the.lrish constabulary force, a letter was put in in
evidence, written by Major Brown, its present military
commissioner. He said, " They are one of the most
noble corps that ever were seen% and I am satisfied they
are equal to, and will do, anything. I wish I was out
of Dublin at the head of them, for there is not a man
amongst them that would not arrest the Pepe or the
Archbishop of Canterbury."—(Loud laughter.) This
force, let it be remembered, the Lord Lieutenant had the
power to increase when he liked, and to any extent he
liked.—(A voice—" No, no.") He begged pardon—that
power was vested in him by the 6th Wm. IV., cap. 12,
sec. 13. That Act gave to the Lord Lieutenant the
power to increase that force to any extent that he liked,
to draw for the money to support that increase, and to
enforce a summary application to the grand juries of
Ireland for payment. So much for the efficient force of
the country. Now for what was called the non-efficient.
The number of yeomanry under this- head was 14,263 ;
of militia on half-pay, 6,000 ; of general and other
officers, 4,574; of private soldiers, 51,777 (deducting 10,000
for pensioners enrolled under the late Act); of retired ar-
tillery, 8,586; of marines, 6,000; of metropolitan police.
4,390; and of borough and county police, 7,000. Now all
these men, inefficient as they were called, could be armed,
He had himself seen policemen who were sent down into
South Wales standing at the Court-house, armed with
drawn swords, where heretofore the service was in-
variably done by the sheriff's officers, with their javelins.
Now here, in this non-efficient branch of the public
service, was to be found above 100,000 men, which,
added to the efficient service, made a grand total of
266,000 men. Now he asked the House if that was an
amount of force which could be justified in the present
state of the country? With the privation and suffering
which still existed to so lamentable a degree, and with
the country as tranquil as possible, they could not justify
such establishments. Eight millions sterling had been
added by the income impost to the taxes of the country,
and he could tell the Government that it was impossible,
if they asked for such votes of men and money as they
proposed to do—it would, he said, be impossible for the
Government to keep faith with the people by
the repeal of the income-tax at the end of the
third year, as by their own promise they were bound
to do.—(A laugh.) Now, was there any thing in the
state of this country, or in the relations of this country,
with Foreign Powers, to justify the Government in de-
manding more men than were asked in the years 1822
and 1823 ? He would take the average of the last 24
years—from 1820 to 1843—and compare it with the
number of men demanded for the present year. The
average amount for each one of those years was in round
numbers 108,000 men. Compare this with the present
time, and there was an excess in round numbers of 33,000
men during the present year over every one of the last
twenty-four years. When he saw such an increase, he
felt bound to tell the Government it was their duty to
show the grounds for, and prove the absolute necessity of,
this vast augmentation. When he (Mr. Williams) first
took up the estimates, he naturally expected to find a
reduction in them; he was sadly deceived. The number
of men voted last year was 129,400. He and others
objected at the time to the vote • and the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel) stated the difficulty which at the
moment was in reducing the large amount of force in
China, and he further stated, that though he considered
the amount he asked for absolutely necessary, at the
same time he proposed to effect a reduction of
5,700 men, which would bring the strength of the
army down in round numbers to 123,000 men.
Now there was no pretence whatever for not
acting up to what had been promised, for
we were at peace with foreign Powers, and if there were
a few more men in Ireland, there were so many the less
in England, which was as tranquil as it well could be.
Again too, there was no decrease in the cost of the army.
Last year, the amount was 6,225,0001 in the present
year, it was 5,984,000/. ; the difference in the amount not
being a reduction, but a carrying over to another de
partment—the commissariat. And here he must do the
Gallant Officer (Sir Henry Hardinge) an act of justice, in
saying that the way in which the accounts were pre-
pared did him infinite credit; they were clear, simple,
and intelligible, and
.he wished every other department
of the Government would take an example from his.—
(Loud cries of Hear, hear.) Now, in his opinion, these
accounts ought to be referred to a Select Committee.
If that were done, he doubted very much if the Govern-
ment would be able to make out a case for such demands
upon the public purse. Look at the Foot Guards, con-
sisting of 5,253 men, at a cost to the country of 58,400/.
mare than what the same number of men in other regi-
ments required. He did not understand what was called
the stock purse in these favoured regiments. 9,257/.
was given to the Guards, but he did not find it given to
any other corps; and there was a special table allowance
and other gratuities, amounting altogether to 58,000/.
He said not a word about the Life Guards out of
respect to her Majesty -- he merely alluded to
them. But it was different with the Foot Guards,
the partiality for which had a tendency to produce
great dissatisfaction among the officers of the line. He
greatly deprecated the system of giving colonelcies to
generals, who never, perhaps, saw the regiments to
which they were appointed, and who, most improperly,
as he thought, made considerable sums from the clothing
of their regiments. He did not wish to see merit and
services go without just and ample reward, but he wished
to see it rewarded directly, as in the navy, and not by
such unworthy means as that of clothing regiments.
Again, why should the privates of the Guards get a
penny a day more than the men of the line ? The men
in the Guards ought, in his opinion, to be chosen from
other regiments, for their services and good conduct,
and they would then have a body of men that would be
looked up to by the whole service, and would be a pride
to the country. Reverting to the subject of the large
sums made by colonels from the clothing of these regi-
ments, he asked the house to look at that noble corps,
the artillery, which was clothed by the Government, and
not by its colonel. See how superior was the cloth they
wore, how much better their clothes fitted, how far more
commanding was their appearance. He contended that
there was no fair or regular rule in the different corps
of the army, either in pay, dress, or service. Why, for
instance, should not regiments of the line, after en-
during the burning sun of India, and the bitter frosts of
Canada, be entitled to take their comfortable service in
London in their turn, and allow the guards to reap some
of the honours they had left behind them ?—(A laugh.)
Again, how was it that no one, unless closely connected
with thenristocracy, or possessed' of great influence in
the House of Commons, was permitted to get a com-
mission in the Guards? The next point he wished to
refer to was that lumber known as the yeomanry
cavalry. He was satisfied, if he could only get
a Committee of that House, the yeomanry
cavalry would very quickly be abolished. Why,
the fact was, that in any place where there was a
yeomanry corps, they could not go into a single shop or
house, where they would not see the landlord with a
large pair of mustachios on his upper lip, serving his
customers.—(Laughter.) He had witnessed such things
himself at Harrowgate, in Yorkshire, and he believed it
was general. This force had lever been of any use, and
could not be ; if any outbreak was to take place, could
the thought be entertained, for one moment, of bringing
them out to assist the civil force. He was happy that
the Government had had the good sense not to make
use of them.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had now stated various
points with regard to these estimates, which he thought
ought to be considered by a Committee, and he could
point out a great number of their extravagancies, but he
would not fatigue the House by doing so. It was true
the people were in a better state, and there was
not so much depression in trade, but he was afraid
that the present improved state of things was
not of a lasting character. He called upon the
Chancellor of the Exchequer not to be led away
by the present cheapness of money, as it had not been
produced by trade, but in a great measure by the pay-
ment of light gold into the Bank. The Government, in
his opinion, ought to be careful not to make estimates
upon the present prosperous state of the Bank, but they
should look forward to times of trouble and difficulty,
which would as surely come as the darkness followed
the light. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had pro-
mised them that they should not have the income-tax
beyond next year.
Sir R PEEL—I never made any such promise.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the Right Hon. Baronet
had held out to that House and to the country that the
income-tax was only required for three years to bring
into a healthy state the finances of the country. The
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that these esti-
mates should be referred to a Select Committee of the
House. If any objection was taken to this motion, he
would not divide the House upon it, but content himself
with having made the statement he had done.
Sir H. HARDINGE trusted that the Hon. Member
would not consider any remarks which he might make

as discourteous towards him. He was anxious to answer
all the points the Hon. Member had brought forward,
but he thought the-best opportunity of doing so was
in a Committee of Supply. With regard to the Com-
mittee Which the Hon. Member had moved for with re-
spect to the clothing of the army, it was only necessary
for him to observe that a Committee had sat upon that
subject, and it was considered by that Committee that
the clothing, of the army could be better performed under
the supervision of the colonels of each regiment than by
any general order. With respect to the forces to be kept
up in the colonies a Committee had also sat upon that
subject, and at the present moment there was a smaller
force in all the colonies than was recommended by that
Committee. As to the yeomanry cavalry he thought
that subject could be much better discussed in a Com-
mittee of Supply.
Mr.. WILLIAMS then withdrew his motion.
On the question that the Order of the Day for the
House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, be
read,
Mr. H. BAILLIE wished to know whether there was
any intention on the part -of the GOvernment to bring
the subject of military pensions under the consideration
of the House. If the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer an-
swered in the affirmative, he would leave the subject in
his hands and not-proceed with his motion.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the question was one of
considerable importance. At the present moment the
Government were collecting a vast variety .of useful in-
formation by Which more accurate data could- be ob-
tained, and by which Government could come to a more
accurate opinion. The course that the Government were
now pursuing was only following the footsteps of the
preceding Government. He could assure his Hon.
Friend, without pledging himself to anything, that as
soon as the information the Government was collecting
was completed, it was his intention to bring the whole
übject under the consideration of the House.
Lord HOWICK felt no small surprise and sorrow at
the answer that had been given by the Right Hon. and
Gallant Officer to the question that had been put to him.
He thought that the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
ought to have been in a situation to have stated some de-
cided course that was intended to be adopted by the
Government, considering that he had been nearly two
years and a half in office. The answer he had made was
calculated to raise expectations, which, if not fulfilled,
might be attended with the worst results. He (Lord
Howick) had some little experience in the office that
was now filled by thellight Hon. and Gallant Officer,
and from that experience he was sure that there' could
not be any difficulty in giving the information required.
—(Hear, hear.) The House and the country, he
thought, had reason to complain of the conduct of the
Right Hon.. Gentleman. His manly and straightforward
course would have been to have stated at once the course
the Government intended to pursue.—(Hear.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE did not consider himself
entitled to the taunts of the Noble Lord. He had stated
that he believed the course the Government were about
to pursue was in accordance with the proceedings of the

late Government, and he came to that conclusion from a
letter the Noble Lord himself had left in the War-office.
That letter recommended the adoption of the course the
Government were now pursuing.
Lord HO WICK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
answer might have been well-founded if it had been last
year, or the year before. With respect to the letter to
which the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had referred,
it was not with reference to projected pensions, but with
respect to the discharge of men who were young upon
registered pensions.
Dr. BO WRING regretted that estimates of so large an
amount, and of such extreme importance, were not re-
ferred to a Select Committee, because, unless such a
course were adopted it was impossible that these esti-
mates could be well considered. Added to this, he

, thought it was not right or becoming of that House to vote
away such large sums of money when there were only
, about forty members present.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved if the proceedings of that House, when voting
away the public money, were made more public, the
greatest good would result.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD could not let this
subject drop without calling the attention of the House
to the unconstitutional nature of the immense standing
army that was kept up. They had 48,405 rank and
file ; they had 6,000 marines on shore, which made up-
wards of 54,000; then they had 10,000 pensioners,
making 64,000. The volunteer force was 14,000. The
Irish constabulary was 9,000, making the whole force
combined 87,809. Then there was the artillery and ma-
rines, of which he had no knowledge. Now, he would
ask the Government and the House, whether it was ne-
cessary to keep up such a force ? If it was neces-
sary, why, he would ask, was it so ? Were the people
disloyal to the Sovereign? He was perfectly convinced
there never was a Sovereign on- the throne of England
to whom the people were more attaehed. Were the
people disloyal to the Constitution? No. They were
only desirous of having the benefit of the Constitution?
—(Hear, hear.) Was it necessary for the protection of
life and property that this immense army should be kept
u:1
cause? If
Theitw ares,asthoennwhaes wanted
s_teotao know wt
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washat w
noats
dotnhee
to the working classes. He did not speak of political
rights. He spoke of the condition of the working classes.
The Government and that House did not do justice to
the working classes. They legislated for ether interests
than that of the poor man, and the consequence
was, that they were obliged to keep up
this large army to keep the people in subjection.
In the fifteenth century the poor were expelled from the
land, which was seized by the aristocracy. At a subse-
quent period the poor-laws were established, to give the
poor man a compensation for what he had lost. That
law had now been altered so as to deprive the poor man
of that right, by denying him any relief except in the
last state of destitution; at the same time they did this
they kept up the corn-laws. These were the causes of
insubordination and discontent. Another cause was the
enormous amount of taxation, and the way in which it
was levied. At present the taxes were paid in a greater
proportion by the poor than by the rich. The same
reasons for discontent prevailed in Ireland, where the
poor-laws were also still more inapplicable to the dispo-
sition and circumstances of the people. No wonder
there was such discontent in Ireland, or that one of the
uses to which their standing army was applied was the
levying of the poor-rates from the people. He was the
advocate of education, but if they educated the people
without giving them the means of living, they would only
be increasing their discontent. In the present circum-
stances, and in the manner in which the poor were
treated, he did not deny that they required an army;
but he did deny that such an army would be required if
the poor were treated as they ought to be. If they
looked at the early periods of their history—periods of
which they might boast—a large standing army was not
required to keep the public in subjection. In the days
of King Alfred, the constitution that he formed was
sufficient to keep the country in order without a stand-
ing army. In those days the sheriff, with the posse
comitatus, was able to maintain the peace of the country.
But now, they were afraid to trust the people with those
arms in their hands, which they were then called on to
keep for the assistance of the civil officer. The discon-
tent altogether arose from the maltreatment of the poor.
A voluntary force taken from among all classes would
be a constitutional one. But their present voluntary
force was not a constitutional one, being entirely taken
from one class to keep the others in subjection. He was
aware that there were not enough Members in that
House to support him, in an effectual resistance to the
Government getting such an army. If the minority
that voted with him on the last occasion were resolved,
he knew that it was possible to delay the grants for that
army, for a considerable time ; it would be perfectly
practicable to do this; but it was not practicable for an in-
dividual to undertake to do such a thing. He was free
to confess that both out of the House and in it,
though he had raised the question of a standing army,
he had not met sueh a display of feeling as would justify
him in any prGlonged attempt to resist the Government.
If he had met proper support he would not have spared
himself, but he would freely acknowledge there was not
that sufficient feeling outside the House to justify him
in making an effort of this kind. It would be a wasting
of the public time without any effect. These were the
feelings he entertained on the subject. But he was de-
sirous of expressing his opinion on the constitutional
question of keeping up so large a standiug army. He
concluded by moving, as a resolution, " That the large
amount of the standing army now.kept up for the public
service is contrary to constitutional liberty, and dan-
gerous to the rights of the people."
Dr. BOWRING seconded the resolution. It con-
tained a principle which he was not disposed to negative,
but on the contrary to support. In his opinion,. with a
popular Sovereign, a popular Executive, and a popular
Legislature, there was no necessity for keeping up a
large standing army. He believed that a Government
was good to the extent to which it was supported by
public opinion, and bad in proportion to the necessity
of its employing military force. He had presented. a peti-
tion from Bolton, complaining of the amount of the stand-
ingarmy.His constituents recognising the principle that
taxation and representation ought to go hand-in-hand to-
gether, and that m this House, so far from being associated
they were wholly alienated ; they protested, and he pro-
tested in their name, against the application of the
money they were called on to subscribe for the sup-
port of such a large standing army. He quite 'con-
curred with his Hon. Friend as to the small support they
received in that House, and the not yet developed opinion
out of doors. Still he was bound to say that there was
a growing discontent and want of confidence out of
doors, on the part of the unrepresented millions who were
but ill satisfied with the proceedings of the Government.
Mr. FIELDEN said, that when Hon. Gentlemen ob-
jected to the course pursued by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Rochdale, they seemed to him to forget
from whose pockets the taxes were derived. It was not
becoming the House to refuse inquiry into the griev-
ances of the people. He had sat upon the Hand-loom
Weavers' Committee, and it appeared that 100,000 per-
sons were in a state of great distress—a number equal
to the slaves of the West Indies, for whose liberation,
they paid 20,000,0001.—(Hear, hear.): The condition of
the working classes was neglected. They brought in a
Factories Bill, but there was nothing in it which would
prove in the least satisfactory to those who worked in
factories. A Poor-law Amendment Bill was also intro-
duced, but it was a Bill which it was impossible to
amend. They could not make it acceptile to the
people. The first Bill was brought in for the avowed
purpose of making the labouring men more independent,
and had it that effect ? No, it bad not. lie felt confi-
dent that if they .did not speedily do something to ren-
der more comfortable the condition of the people, they
would find it difficult to govern them. They were on
the brink of a volcano. He implored them to retrace
their steps. They were at present proceeding in a cir- 1
cle. When they got more taxes; they got more forces ;
and when they got more forces, they got more taxes;
and with the augmented taxes they got more forces
again.—(Hear.) But they must stop at length. The
country would not long endure such a course. If the
Right Hon. Baronet gave them an assurance that he
would take the grievances of the people into his consi- 1
deration ,nobody would refuse to vote the supplies.