The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-16 00:00:00

TUE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY ---IVI'ORNING APRIL 16 1845.

had ben piatrin, in from every direction comp'aining
the ell; i•t: of the • flatlet. and praying r i ouiry.
Sir JAME.; GRAHAM said he would fix the second
readirg of (he Rill for Mon.!ati next.
Mr. WAKLEY would tken give notice of his ni,ticn
for Tuesday.

IMPEACHMENT OF SIR R PEEL.
Mr. FERNAND moved that the pt,aiti,tn which he
had press-rt. d ,h, (rhea eve• inProtg, from the Operative
AssociA•ioll 04. Dublin, he print. d with the
vot(,.. He did a know ary r, as .:r why objec-
tions should hs raj,. d to this petition being printed,
as it was tito-t resta-ctfully orcL d. It contained certain
allegations against the First Lord of the Treasury, which
allegations it was hi, ( r. Ferranti's) intention to bring
under the notice of the House on the third reading of
the Collage of Mayrototh Bill, if it should ever arrive at
that Sorge. He therefore hoped that no Hon. Meanber
would think it necessary to oppose the printing of this
petition.
Mr. HIN.DI,EY secondet-t the maim].
Colonel R )N said he had 13.-on in hop.., th
the Hon. Me•niter for Knaresb,troutah would not have
made this it otion—that he would not have singled out
that petition to be circulated amongst the Mem
bers of that House. What would be the
consequence of making that motion. Why, that
on the fAlowing morning every Member of that. House
would have on his breakfest table this petition.—(Great
laughter.) He begged the House to recollect that in
1829 Row in Catholic Members were admitted into that
House, a! d that Roman Catholic Members would road
that petition. What did thLt petition comain ? It con-
tained these cords, "That the petitioners have learned
that laws areaboat bob. ititruduced int, tr,e House br the
head of the Governmnt, haying for their objeio the
ir,!tdcati tn in public seminaries of Popish prineiples—
bitchgrin•being notoriously, deraonstrall: and,
according to ar, Anti7Chris.rati I
Where was that feeling waich ought to predominate
amongst Christians ? He was not obj. cting to
the introduction of this petition, but he begged
shortly to call the attention of the House
to gEane circumstances with reference to it. It
might be in the recollection of the House that the
greatest authority in that House, after the Sptuker,
to matters of form, the 111cmher f r Montgo-
- Ineryshire, expressed doubts as to 'he proper ad
rssion of this petition, and as to its right to be
441 on the table of the House. That Honourable
Gentleman did nct act upon these doubts in con-
sequence of the interpositittn of the Right Hon. Gentle-
Inans against whom the shaft had been levelled. It was
not a matter of neces-ity that the petition presen.ed by
Pe Hon. Member for K.•atesb ,ritugh should be printed—
if he wished to bring the Prime Minister to contli.sn
Punishment. as the petitioners prayed —if he wished to
nnitate Mr. Burke in a mettoire of impeachment. he
Rawdou) expect, d the print:ng of thi- petition
"as not a necessary preliminary. The petition could be
referred to a Committee up stairs, according
thq custom of the House, and it the Committee con-
sidered there was matter of import they might order it
to .be Printed. He relied on the good sense and
generous feeling- of the House— he thought this wa. not
Party question, and he felt convincer that no man of
!heritable feeling in that II use, or out of
It, could sanction the words " f.lse, idol trouns.
end
anti-Christian." as applied to the religion
ch More than half of their fellovv subject,—
(Rear, hear.) Had Honourable Members seen the 1, tter
relating to the petition signed by the Member for
Krhresb,.rough He would not insult the House of Com-
ta"us by mentioning its language, but he felt convinced
that there was hardly another Member of that
Rouse who would write such a letter as that which
the Honourable Member for Koaresbotatugh had
written. He disclaimed all personal off-nce, but
this
fearlessly and fully exprea his opinion on
'is matter. The terms ef the letter sho.‘ed
clearly the animus which existed in its writer. In a
word, he considered it vorild degrade the dignity of the
Huse of Commons in the eyes of the nation if, by or-
ering thiS petition to be printed, they in some measure
Camped it with their sanction. If the petitioners
really intended to impeach Sir R theft Peel. and chose
the Ron. Member for linaresborough for a leadar. they
were at perfect liberty to do so ; and the Hon. Moniker
liould be perfectly justified in carrying out their wi,hes.
But as the representative of what was termed in Ireland,
"Protestant Armagh," he must of ject to the wording
of this petition. He would therefore move a direct ne-
gative to the motion.
Lord NORTHLAND c.trisidetred that the petition
contained expressions which ought t t prevent the House
from agreeing to the motion that it be printed with the
votes.

Mr. REDINGTON said that when he considered that
one of the passages in the Coronation oath contained ex-
pressions not dissimilar to those which bad been re-
ferred to by his lion. Friend the Member for Armagh,
in reference to the Roman Catholics, he thought
that House would be acting with great inconsistency if
they exhibited any squeamishness in receiving the peti-
tion of the Hon. Member for Knareshorough.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") For himself be never had and
river would stoop to answer those foul calumnies—
(Loud cheers)—thoug, he consider,d it waA dis4rAcing
the Crown of these realms to make it swear to them.

Sir R. INGLIS said he suppotwi the next measure of
her .Majesty's Uo,erntnent would he a measure to do
away with the passage referred to by the Hon Gentle-
man who spoke last, expecially as his remarks had been
It) loudly cheered by the other side.—(" Hear, hear," and
& laugh.) But he rose for the purpose of calling the at-
tention of the House to the practice of the House,
that when a petition was ordered to lie on the
table it was almost a matter of course that it should be
Printed with the votes, when an Hon. Member declared
tits intention of making a motion upon it. That was
the usual course, without any reference to the language
all
the petition, and upon that ground alone, without at
saying that he concurred in the language or the
expressions of the petition, he should vote for the motion
trivih.e Hon. Member for Kuaresborough, if pressed to a
81 in.
N,Sir J. GRAHAM said that ho certainly regretted the
"sage in the petition which the lion. and Gallant
Officer the Member fur Armagh had brought under the
Ili?tice of the House. He regretted that any petitioners
at
Quid have used language so painful and so ,nsive
iv
4wards a, large portion of her Majesty's subjects.
feelWaS not on the present occasion that he should
~pranuttetrpothiielt,necegsity of entering into a discussion
t'i?tcer much less was it any part of his duty to
P the present occasion into a discussion upon
' terros
in which the Coronation oath was
e‘')iiihehed. As to the point of order, he agreed
4.etuthhis Honourable Friend- the Member for Oxford.
to "tight it was a general rule of the House, subject
Qxeeptions in some peculiar cases, that when an
terilL,Meinber pledged himself on presenting a petition.
shape it under the special notice of the House in the
1)1.i,1? of a motion, it was, as a matter of course, to be
th4'ed with the votes. The question then arose whether
Pe4ownaltao.ything so special in the ciricutihn
h, preve tile o. t au
ns
wue eaa s(°
l s r f a
KQ tl
ti .1
an
4(-1 said that the languagpeeration of theo petition .
wit
Stitt'
kind, but he did not think that the language
e nle 8 Stieh as to take it out of the general rule. Then
the question as to the allegation, that the First
' ,ster of the Crown had been guilty of high crimes and
rt,? inter
that allegation a reason
_that the
'e should refuse to print the petition ? Now, the
ore
4,4id'lember for linaresbormigh had said that he
(Cries make that allegation the übject of a motion.—
Graham I, " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") Was he (sir J.
.'i'ato) right ?—(Hear, hear.)
noticer FIAIRAND said that he had list night given
Sir or the tnotion which he intended to make.
fet, 11:, GRAHAM said if the Hon. Memi,er meant to
tupon the petition a motion respecting the allegai
111'3n-143 against the First Minister of the Crown, neither
jels-t„s`g,ht Hon. Friend, nor any member
,of her Ma-
„ linyernment would offer the slightest opposition
itie printing of the petition.—(Heat, hear.)
noticer* FERRAND sail that he had last night given
she "f the motion which he should bring forward on
Effectthird readinz of the Bill. The motion was to the
lion that " The Catholic Bequests .Act was a viola-
,a.th of the Act of Settlement anti a contravention of the
aft„," (-)1 supremacy." What other course lie might
th rwards feel it his duty to take he would state at
Hear, hear." and " Oh, i ih.") •
tea °I.(1 J. RUSSELL said he understood the Ho ntle-
„l theho last spoke to say, that he intended to found lotion
te Petition accusing the first Minister of the Crown, of high
Cason, and calling on the House to impeach Hear,
iiark• ) Now he (Lord J. Russell) could not agree with the
mattegut Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Inglis) that it was. a
evr of course, according to the rules of the House. to print
f,,,PrnY Petition Ili on which an Hun. Member undertook to
(I: a motion It w-ts a matter of course upon all o Binary
ti But But the present was a peculiar case. The peti-
A 119., made the heaviest allegations against the personal
p;ntater of the Crown, and asked for impeachment. Now the
,g,11.t.,11011• Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) very naturally exi.
NlT'', a wish not to oppose the printing of the petition on
feet. ground. He (Lord J. Russell) could understand the
that Iligs of the Right Hon. Gentleman. For himself, he thought
ttitthe House, even if it were intended to found on this
.in a motion directly impeaching the conduct of the first
't.,!etnist.er.of the C:•own, ought to pause before they consented to
rt Printing of this petition. But he did not think that when
Motion was to be made on the third reading, and that when
t‘l"iltinotion alluded, partly indeed, to the Bill, but, for the
by Itth.Part, to an Act of Parliament passed last session—passed
consent of the Queen, Lords, and Commons, and stated
settlect of Parliament was a violation of the Act of
not moot and of the Act of Supremacy, he could
iraut. consider that that could be considered as a motion ;
~,,oP,a,elling the first Minister of the Crown, and he
4 say that the printing that petition, altleiugh it
w.`„_enot positively say that, in the opinion of the House, there
grounds for impeaching the Prime Minister, yet. it did
ii,,,3.,:r.i.epgaiyattihotait,Lhe(re was something reasonable in the allegations,
t least, that they were not altogether frivolous and absurd
Hear, hear.) Now, the allegations of this pe-
_,%:a might be divided into two parts. One part, as had been
a, rved by the Right Hon. Member for Montgomeryshire,
other evening, directed to the conduct of the Ri tilt Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Tamworth, as a Member of that
at%
vsetwithregard to motions made by him, Bills brought in,
es given by him, as a Member of that House.—( Hear,
I:tevar2°
the ci,uld form no ground fur proceedings on the
advisif the House. Another set of allegations accused him of
fulfil tng the Crown, in his capacity of Privy Counsellor, to
eert_,nprovisions of the Catholic Bequests Act, and to place
ti.eynan Catholic prelates on the Catholic Requests
medirttl. Rivingshe them precedence according to the provisions of
Published order in council, and it stated that the appoint-
of".t,
ef these Members to
that Board was a violati
hct 'of cf supremacy, and a violation of the
tlt _ uitremacy itself (Lord John Russell Hear.) Now, it appeared to
—4
that this was a frivolous allegation.
not a plausible allegation. They could not take any
lie:eding upon it, and on that ground alone, even if it had
sent lntended to found a motion up,in it, he could not con-
tlon_ 7: f:r
Ito give the sanctit.tn of the House to those allega-
a.s
tj,_a to low the petition to be panted.—(Cheers. ) But
mt,- Gentleman said that heshould only bring forward
Act
of , he third reading of the Bill, to the effect that
,itin on t .
tiulated Settlement and the Act of Supremacy had been
oy an Act passed by Parliament in the last session—
that p
;f,o_ ,!liarnent having a riglit to alter or amend an • pr ceed-
-0 iftsPeoarnlisaidmeernt—and did not intend to ask the House 3 to take
ation the crimes and ruilideraeanours of which

the petition-said the-first .Minister of the' Crown 'had been
guilty. he ( Lord J. Russell), for one, even if he could find no
one else to agree with him, would give a decided negative to
the motion.— (Loud cheers.)
Mr. SH ARMAN CRAWFORD was anxious to say a few
wo de on this painful subject. He deeply regretted that such
express ens, sa irisultine to many of his fellow-eountrymen, as
thew which were to b. found in this pe!itices, should have
been used in any petition presented to that house. And even
had it been recess:try that the petition should be prin ed, it
wenlii only have been with the utmost reluctan: e that he could
have consented to 'uch a motion. He was anxieus on the pre-
sent occasion to express these sentimeres because nothing could
injurious to the opposition to the Maynooth grant than
to have it placed on such grounds. He voted against that
grant because on principle he was opposed to the State esta-
blishing any religion. He was as reluctant as any man could
be in that House to oppose that grant on principles insulting to
his Roman Catholic fellow. subjects, and he, for one, would vote
against the printing of the petition.—( Hear.
Ale. LIDDELL would not hare troubled the House if it had
not been for the charge made against them by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dundalk. of unnecessary squeamishness in refusing to
print this petition. The Hon. Member for Dundalk had alluded
to the Coronation Oath, and as the oath had been alluded to,
he (Mr. Liddell) would read it to the House.—( The Hon.
Gentleman here read the Coronation Oath to the House. )
Now, he would ask the House it' there was anything in the
Coronation Oath at all resembling the expressions made use
of in that petition? Ile might say that the lion. Member's al-
lusion to the oath of abjuration was equally unfortunate. The
oath of abjuration simply called upon a Member to abjure that
doctrine which said that any person or prince who was excom-
niunieated or deprived of power by the Pope might be destroyed
or murdered by any of the subjects. Would they pretend to
say that that doctrine was nut injurious and damnable. If it
were true, he should like to know what security there would be
to the life of the su :jects of her Majesty.,
Mr. REDING-TON said that he was still of opinion that
her Vajeatv did declare that ,he worship of the Virgin Mary
was damnable and idolatrous—now that was the doctrine of the
R man Catholics.
.11r. DUNCOAIRE said, that the object, the House
had in respiring a Member to give notice of his intention to
have a petition printed was. to induce that Member to
make a notice of motion for some particular day. If a spe-
cific notice of motion were not necessary, he might hare all
the petitions printed without the intention of founding a
swims thereon. If the lion. Member fer Knaresberough
marls a specific notice of motion, the House could not refuse
the printing of the petitioo, and if the petition c ntained
anything calumnious or libellous, it were better to have it printed
for the use of the Members of the House only. The motion of
his Hon. Friend behind him was the best course that could be
taken for publicity, if that were his object. lie took the best
course to find these objectionable passages on his breakfast
table to morrow. Some kind friend from Dublin had favored
him (Mr. Duncombe) with a copy of this petition, and he
not con.ider it of much importance, or likely to do much
harm.—( Hear, hear. ) There was a public feeling that the
right of petitioning had been encroached upon, and they ought
to be very cautious in refusine the printing of any petition.
If the Hon Member gave a specific notice that he would
found a motion on the petition, he had a right to have it
printed.
Mr. FERRAND said that it was not his intention to make
a distinct motion on that petition; he would therefore with-
draw his motion.—( Laughter.)
Dr. BOIVIIING presented petitions from Dissenting con-
gregations meeting in the towns of Blackburn and Oldham, in
favour of the grant to Maynooth.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented numerous petitions agains t
the grant.

Air. S. O'BaIEN and Mr. COLLETT presented similar
petitions.

Lord WORSLEY presented above sixty petitions from
various places in England against the grant.
Mr. BRIGHT presented many petitions of a smilar cha-
racter, and, among them, one from the Society of Friends at
Worcester.

Lord POLLINGTON and Mr. FERRAND presented similar
petitions.

Mr. AGLIONBY presented three petitions from as many
parishes in Coekermouth, against the grant.
The following Hon. Members also presented petitions having
a like object in view : —Lord Claude Hamilton, Mr. John
Stewart Wortley, Mr. W. Compton, Sir John 'f y rrel (who said
that one of his petitions was signed by a great many ladies, who
were teachers in Sunday Schools), Sir G. Gore, Mr. Spooner,
Birmingham ; Sir George Staunton, from places in Hamp-
shire ; Mr. Holdsworth ; Mr. Wiltshire, from places in Yar-
mouth ; Mr. puck, from Devonshire ; Mr. Masterman, from
places in the City of London ; Mr. Woodham, from Norfolk ;
_ _

Mr. Estcott, from Oxford ; Colonel Sibthorp, from various
parishes in Lincolnshire; Mr. Pattison, from one or two places
in the City of London; Mr. Sharman Crawford, from Roch-
dale ; Mr. Enter isle ; Mr. C. Berkeley, from Cheltenham ;
i.r. Blewitt, from Monmouth ; Sir W. Clay, from Mile-end
and Stepney; Mr. Bankes, from Dorsetshire; Mr. 0. bun-
combe, from Yorkshire ; Mr. Ward ; Lord Clive ; Mr. Tolle-
meche ; Mr. Evans, from pla •es in Derbyshire and Notting•.
hamshire ; Lord Castlereagh, from Belfast ; Lord Ingestre ;
Mr. P. Stewart ; Mr. Hume, from Essex ; Lord Ebritigton,
from Devonshire ; Mr. M. Gibson ; and Mr, Hindley, 120
from various parts of England.

MAYNOOTEI.
The order of the day fa. the second reading of the May-
nooth Endowment Bill having been read,
Major BERESFORD said he generally gave a silent vote,
but thought it right on the present occasion to express his opi-
nions. He stood before them in a double capacity of an Eng-
lish representative and an Irish Protestant. He disclaimed all
intention of any offensive expressions towards his Roman
Catholie fellow subjects, for which he felt a great regard. In
1823, when a young man, he had been offered a seat in Parlia-
ment, if he would vote against Catholic Emancipation. But
he refused to (1,, so, and remained out of Parliament. Let
him not therefore be called a bigot. There were limits to con-
cession, and when concession had been made to the Catholics
of Ireland. he would ask the House how it had been responded
to? The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home Department had stated that there was a
limit to concession ; but it would seem that there was
n 3 limit to concession. The motto of the Ministry seemed to
be ton ours en avant. As for the question of the compact, he
denied that any such existed. He denied that there was any
contract at all with regard to the support of Maynooth ; but
there was at the time of the union a tangible and firm contract
with the Established Church, which was but little regarded.
Had not ten bishops been swept away, and was not the in-
come of the ministers of the Established Church diminished
one-fourth ?—( Hear, hear. ) This was a new measure altoge-
ther—it was a measure for an endowment fur the first. time pro-
posed, and he saw no special reasons why the Roman Catholic
religion should be endowed, which would not equally apply to
the endowment of other sects. On that principle he would
oppose this grant. He did not think the Parliament and peo-
ple of England would consent to give an increased grant to
Maynooth, which had made such bad use of the means
already at its disposal.—( Hear, hear.) He who was acquainted
with Ireland knew that those who catne out of Maynooth de-
voted themselves to the propagation of agitation, instead of
the dissemination of religion and loyalty. The spiritual head
of the Roman Catholic religion was lately obliged to interfere
to check their proceedings, while the Right Hon. Baronet was
about to give them increased means of mischief. Both the
one and the other put forward pretensions to infallibility ; and
though the one checked agitation, and the other was inclined
to foster it, he could only reconcile their rival claims by sup-
posing (being permitted, as an Irishman, to commit a bull),
that both were infallibly right. He also opposed this measure
because he feared it was but the beginning of further endow-
ment, and the payment of the Roman Catholic priests. The
men who had obtained a higher degree of education,
and mere refined feelings, should be supported from
other sources than those from which they derived
their support at present. That was not his opinion—non
;netts hie sumo. It was the general opinion in the House.
But from what sources were the Roman Catholic priests to be
paid ? The people of England would not submit to any further
taxation for this purpo:e, even if the present measure were
forced upon them.— ( Hear. ) A general election would soon
take place, and the people of England, though they might ab-
s sin from vituperation for the past, would, however, exercise
a vigilant caution with respect to the future.—( Hoar, hear. )
When other means of paying the Roman Catholic clergy failed
them, he feared they would then have recourse to the Esta-
blished Church for the means, for it seemed that expediency
was now better than prineiple.—( Hear, hear ) Here, indeed,
they had scene-shifters of a character that had seldom been
equalled ; for now those who had brought it forward, having
found that it was damned on one stage, would now have it re-
enacted upon another with unbounded applause as the " Rival
Catholic."—( Loud laughter and cheers from the Opposition.)
Besides the objection he had stated, there were minor ones,
with regard to the time and mode of bringing forward
this measure to which he wished to allude. With regard to
the time, there never was a time when, it was well known, the
Bill could h•e brought forward with greater facility by those
who had introduced it than the present, for now that party
were under no control whatever. Another objection to the
time was, that the Government had introduced it at a period
when they had refused all aid for scriptural education in Ire-
land—( Cheers)—for the Government had refused the appeal
of the Venerable Primate of Ireland for the means of educating
the Protestants of Ireland in the faith in which they believed.
—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) Ile main-
tained that the petitions presented against the grant to May-
nooth were fully equal to the number presented in former
times against the educational clauses of the Factory Bill. That
was withdrawn, and he trusted this would also be withdrawn.

They were told that the, ,e petitions emanated from agitation,
and ought not to be attended to. He denied the fact, he re-
probated the inference, and he trusted the people would know
who rejected their petitions. No part of the Esiablished
Church had more reason to complain of disappointed hopes and
blighted expectations than the Protestants of Ireland. The
Protestants of Ireland knew that it was a sound maxim of re-

liaion that whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, but they felt
that to apply that principle in politics, and say "whom the
Premier loveth he chasteneih," would be most disagreeable in

theory, and oppressive in practice.—( Laughter. )v 'fhe dis-
memberment of Maynooth would materially assist the stability
of the empire. He trusted, that though he had spoken plainly
and openly, he had said nothing uncourteous to those who dif-
fered from him in opinion ; but he did consider that the Go-
vernment were bringing forward a measure diametrically op-
posed to the best principles of good government.—( Hear. )
Mr. BYNG wished to say a few words, and they would
be but a few on this s4bject. He had felt in-
terested
in the Roman Catholics of Ireland for the
last fifty-seven years, and he could not allow this opportunity
to pass without saying a few words 111 on the question. He
supported this motion, not only on political grounds, but
what was far nearer to his heart, on ragions grounds also.—
(Cheers.) Ile thought the Catholics of Ireland had been
worse governed than any other subjects in Europe—( Hear )
and he could not find in the sacred Scriptures that he was
ordered by the great God who had made them all—that he was
ordered by that great God to hate any man because he dif-
fered from him in religion. There was nothing of all this in
the Scriptures. He believed that every man had a right to
wor hp God Almighty according to that form which he thought
would be most ai.ceptable to the great God. God Almighty
knew when a man prayed to him aright. He was the searcher
of hearts, and He knew when they were sincere. Sincerity was
what He loved and He would bear with nothincr' else. He
(Mr. Byng) could not remain in that: ilotue, he
could not, in conscience, retain his vote, if lie did
not now give that vote in favour of the Roman
Catholics.--(Hear, hear.) Ho thought that, on coming to
that House, he was on all questions to think of his fellow-men
and think of them alone. He must not think of self, 4. And
thank God," continued the Hon. Gentleman, " I can lay my
hand upon my heart, and say that I have never selfishly voted,
or voted in favour of that which I thought contrary to the
happiness and welfare of this great country—never, never,
never." He was sorry to see in this country so many Pro-
testants of all sects arrayed against this motion. He remem-
bered well that in former times they were arrayed in great
numbers against a friend of his, Harvey Cembe, who sought
to introduce similar liberal measures. He (Mr. Byng) then
asked the Dissenters, if they voted against the Catholics on
that occasion, what would b. come of themselves next week ?
He asked them then, if they thought the Church of England
less barbarous to Dissenters than to Catholics? and he found
that, Instead of being against him, the Dissenters were altoge-
ther for hint.—( Hear, hear.) The more he thought of :it
the more convinced he was that conciliatory measures
were the best means the Government could adopt
to restore peace to Irelaod.---( Cheers. ) Let them consider
who were the Ministers at present, the Duke of Wellington
and Sir Robert Peel.—(Laughter.) And no two persons
could dislike this motion worse than the Duke of Wellington

and Sir 'Robert Peel.—(Continued laughter.) He did not
mean to charge anything against these Ministers, for he was
sure that they thought what they did was for the benefit of
the country.—( Hear, bear.) But when he (Mr. Byng)
thought of the 7,0.10,000 of his Roman Catholic fellow-sub-
jects, having no endowment whatever, or at least what was
scarcely worth the name, and compared that paltry grant with
the munificent revenues derived from Ireland for the support
of the religion of the remaining million of Protestants, he felt
b ,und to give his cordial vote in support of this motion. The
venerable Member sat down amid loud cheering.
Colonel VERNER said it was not his intention to have
troubled the House during this debate, but when he
considered the general feeling which prevailed throughout the
country, when he witnessed the pouring in of petitions to
that table, he felt that he should not be properly discharging
his duty as an Irish Member, if he gave a silent vote upon
this question. He could not agree with the opinion expressed
by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark, that
those petitions did not represent the feelings of the people.
He Colonel Verner) had always understood that there were
but two ways in which the voice of the people could reach that
House. tine of the modes was by petition, and the other
through their representatives. If different opinions, therefore,
prevailed throughout the country, surely the supporters of
this measure had the same facilities for making their
opinions known as its opponents had. But had
the petitions in fa►our of the grant borne any proportion to the
petitions against it ? He had himself had the honour of pre-
senting, a petition from Belfast against the grant, signed by
thirty-seven ministers ; and he would read to the House the
Istter which accompanied it. ( The Gallant Member then
read the letter, addressed to himself by the petitioners, in which
they characterised the grant as one most mischievous in ten-
dency and unjust in practice.) He (Colonel Verner) had
not heard from one Member in that House an argument
worthy of the name, to prove that even this measure was ex-
pedient. He had observed with regret, for some time past,
that in any measure relating to Ireland, the Protestants of that.
country were forgotten, as if their claims were not worth the
tro :ale of invesogation. He would tell the House that that
portion of the population had evinced th is loyalty under the
most arduous circumstances, and in the most trying times.
He recollected when the Protestant yeomen put down a re-
bellion iu Ireland. They should look to the conduct of those
to whom they were now called upon to grant what was called
a boon. He hoped lie should have heard something from the
Right Hon. Baronet expressive of a good disposition on the
part of those for whose benefit this grant was now to be made.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin had observed to the

House the agitated state in which Inland was two years ago,
he might, indeed, have shortened the period, or even have
stated that Ireland was not now in its happiest state. The
House would recollect the expense to which the Government
was put by sending troops to Ireland to suppress the repeal
agitation, aria the expense that was contracted in instructing
the law officers of the Crown to take legal proceetings against
the instigators of the agitation. Was there an individual Mem-

ber of that House who said that that body, though differing
with the Right Hon. Baronet in political opinions, yet that they
were desirous of putting down the agitation with him.?
It was no later than lest week that he himself received two
communications from the Repeal Association, calling upon him
to support their principles. He never heard of any disposition
on the part of these people to give up these proceedings at the
time that they were called up .n to grant a sum of money for the
education of their priests. Supposing- that he himself could re-
concile it with his feelings to grant a sum of money for their
support, he did not think that this was the most fit period
When Mr. O'Connell had received intelligence that this grant
was about to be proposed, he in his speech said, " hurrah for
Peel and repeal." Could there be any doubt that he meant
that it was one step more in favour of repeal. Was there an
Honourable Member in the House who would suppose that that
was not what he meant? This grant would do no good, it
would be ill-received by the Roman Catholics, and it would

excite more suspicion in the minds of the Protestants
of Ireland that they were neglected. The Protestants
of Ireland had continued their loyalty and attachment
to the Crown, and displayed it more particularly on one occa-
sion, which he could not avoid reminding the House of. It
was when a body of men, headed by several of the noblemen
and gentry of both religions, were instrumental in maintaining
the peace of the country ; and yet when it was the wish of the
sovereign that that body should no longer exist, it immediately
dissolved itself. But the time may come when the reunion of
that body may be necessary ; and if they felt themselves
neglected by those who ought to support them, it would not be
surprising if they united to protect themselves.
Mr. HUME said that he was anxious, on so interesting a
subject, to offer his opinion on the measure brought forward by
the Right Hon. Baronet. If anything in the debate could be
more important than another it was the speeeh of the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman who had just sat down, who, from the speech
he introduced, must be considered a fair sp cimen of the Irish
Protestant. lie called upon them to recollect what had been
the state of Ireland. He told them that he had recollected
perhaps more than they did of the proceedings in that
country, and he detailed contests in that country between I
Protestants and Roman Catholics, rebellions and the suppres-
sion of those rebellions, and massacres which every Member
must regret to have taken place. But what was the policy
laid down, according to the statement of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet last year ? He said that the first step to be taken was
to remove the just grounds of complaint under which the Ro-
man Catholics laboured, and they would thus prevent the
possibility of thr.se scenes taking place, year after year, which
disturbed the peace of the country for the last half century.—
, ( Hear, hear.) It was because the Right Hon. Baronet took
that view that he would support this measure. Did not
the Right Hon. Gentleman bring forward the Dissenters' Cha-
pel Bill, which he ( Sir. Hume) supported throughout ? And
he should say that he looked back at it as a question of great
importance to the country, and would be productive of great
benefits.—(flear, hear.) He (Mr. Hume) was afraid that
the Roman Catholics of Ireland did not look with a proper
feeling on she Catholic Bequests Bill. When he examined
Mr. O'Connell on the state of Ireland, he stated that if Roman
Catholics were allowed a partial, management of their own
affairs they would be satisfied. He (Mr. Hume) thought that
the Charitable Bequests Bill had a tendency in that way. The
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman told the Bight lion. Baronet
that the Conciliation-hall was still in existence ; but the
course the Right lion. Baronet had taken was the only one
which soul put down that agitation which had arisen front
the absence of that justice which the Irish had a right to re-
ceive.—(Cheers. ) The Hon. Member for the University of
Dublin took a religious view of the measure ; lie (Mr. Hume)
did not look upon it in the same light, and he regretted that a
cry should be raised that the Church was in danger—.the' No-
Popery " cry—under the idea that Catholicism could not be
placed on a level with Protestantism ; they were exciting the
feelings that existed centuries ago. They ought to take into
consideration the etanges which had since taken place, and not
seem to think that any danger could occur from any connexion
with the Pope now-a-days. He believed that no race of men
could exist together with benefit to themselves or to the
Government, unless they were on a perfect equality.
He heard Mr. O'Connell state on those benches, that the best
means to satisfy Ireland was to remove the grounds of com-
plaint ; and he (,Mr. Hume) held this measure as one of those
steps which tended to remove those grievances complained of.
If they gave the Roman Catholic priests an education which
would enable them to bring up their parishioners in a moral
and religious feeling—if that was to be the effect of this pro-
ceeding, he thought that it would be a most important mea-
sure, and productive of great national benefits. Some had
complained of the priests as educated at Maynooth. What
they wondered at was, that with such a paltry allowance they
were able to bring up men capable of filling the respectable
situations which parish priests should fill oil coming from May-
flood). Now they should have money sufficient to give them
that education which would empower them to improve their
11,,cks ; and on that ground he looked upon the measure as one
of great national benefit. If they looked to other continental
countries, they would perceive that the Government of each
thought it their duty to afford every sect, no matter what were
its tenets, the means of obtaining fit education. In their own
colonies the same principle was adopted, and in India every
class was treated, as to its religious opinions, with the greatest
respect, and it was on account of that spirit of tolerance that
contentment existed. He would take the occasion to say, that
if they treated India in the same manner as they new treated
Ireland, they would not continue long in possession of
those vast territories in that part of the world.
In fast, the Mahomedans went further than even did the Eng-
lish people towards the Irish, for the Mahometlans were the
very first who came forward to support the Roman Catholics in
India, and on those grounds alone he would say that the Go-
vernment of this country ought to be ashamed to refuse this
act of justice to the Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)
While he was upon this subject he would beg leave to mention
this fact, that in the year 1815 a certain Mahomedan chief
granted a sum of twenty thousand rupees for the education of
the Syrian Indians in the Christian faith.—(Hear, hear. 1 He
had heard, with surprise and regret, the speech of the Hon.
Member for Oxford; and he felt assured that no liberal man
who had heard it but felt equal regret at hearing that lion.
Member declare that he would never concur in the payment of
money which should be devoted to the propagation of what he
conceived to be error.—( Hear, hear.) That lion. Member
ought to have reflected a little before he used those words ; for
he was in some measure connected with India, and therefore he
(Mr. Hume) was sorry to think that the Hon. Member had
not learned something of the kindliness of feeling towards his
fellow-man, which his father, in his lifetime, so usefully and
extensively practised.---( [fear, hear.) But after what he
(Mr. Hume) had stated in reference to India, he would say to
this country, look at what a noble example the Pagan has set
you, anti are you not ashamed of yourselves ?—(Cheers. ) He
looked upon the position of Ireland in reference to this question
to be similar, in some respects, to that of the Christians in
India, and therefore at least as much consideration should be
shown them, in proportion to their relative positions.—( Hear. )
Now let him suppose that Ireland, instead of having been con-
quered two hundred years ago, that event took place only last
January, would any man in England propose, as the first mea-
sure towari's that country, that all their property should be
taken from them, and the people left without the means of
education ?—( Hear, hear.) They had not done so to Canada
—in fact they had not treated any part of the world belonging
to them in the same manner a; they had treated Ireland.—
( Hear, hear. ) When the returns that had been ordered should
have been laid upon the table of the House, it would be found
that England had been liberal in her grants of funds to every
country dependent upon her, while to Ireland she had been quite
the contrary.—( Hear, hear.) Again, he would contend for it
that this was not a religious question, and that religion had
nothing at all to do with it. Ile would say that whatever
country England ruled, the people of that cotintry had a right
to expect all the means necessary to do them justice and make
them happy.—( Hear, hear.) It might be regretted that the
Roman Catholics were so numerous; but that was not the
question ; there they were, and as they contributed their share
towards the support of the State, they should not be kept in a
stt to of discontent and dissatisfaction.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
if the House did not approve of this measure as a step towards
removing their discontent, he would ask what other means did
they purpose?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber opposite had threatened a renewal of those unions of par-
ties in Ireland that had long distracted that country ; but he
( Mr. Hume) begged to assure the Gallant Officer that if only
justice were done to Ireland, all such associations would be
quite unnecessary.—( Cheers. ) He would contend for it that
the English Government had owed a duty to the people of India
which they had discharged, while they left their duty to Ire.
land totally disregarded.—( Hear, hear. ) He would contend
for it that much of the squabbling that existed in Ire-
land on the subject of religion was owing to the manner
in which a large share of the public property had
been disposed of. If that were not the cause of
the general discontent, then the Government should look back,
and see what it was, for it must have originated in a long-
continued system of degradation and insult, that no people
could endure.—( Hear, hear.) He would say, then, that Ire-
land was an oppressed country. Justice had been denied her,
and her people had become disturbed because they were con-
vinced of that injustice.—( Hear, hear. ) He would ask, why
not pursue the same course towards Ireland that had been
adopted in England and Scotland? In England the majority
of the people, being Protestant, held property for the mainte-
nance of their Church ; but let them take care that the day
did not come when they would lose it.—(Hear.) Then,
look at Scotland ; in that country the religion of the majority
was supported out of property belonging to the Church, yet all
this support came from the public after all.—( Hear, hear.)
But in Ireland the property of the church was taken from her,
and, then, when the Prime Ministermee
some
ombey
e pofnorotwr
taoin of ther load
of withye yeay
o pa
pro-
positioniti 0 o injustice
atlsi aaat rricielomu" elPddr.);l:fesosri oltffnhe'er ehr deem, wasoh val
n: of f m
also by epithets that did
but very little credit indeed to those who used them —( Hear. )
On the grounds that he had stated, he would support this mea-
sure, for lie looked upon it as one of public polic ;and

as one that would give satWac`ion to the Irish people, and a
better education to their clergy.—( Hear, hear.) There was
one point to which he would have objected if it were proposed,
and that was, taking the means out of the Consolidated Fund.
He would yrefer that the fund should be supplied from the
saving created by the abolition of pluralities and sinecures in
the Established Church ; but as those funds, to the amount of
130,0001. had been otherwise applied, he would then suggest
that they should be provided out of the Consolidated Fund
until they could be saved from the other source.—( Hear. )
lie begged to say that he would most cordially support the
motion of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Cheers. )
Mr. NEWDEGATE did not think that the Hon. Member
who had jut' Sa down had been very
convincing in his arguments,
or very corn limentary to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, in
planing them in comparison with the idolator3 of India. But
he blamed the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland for much of
the misery of the people of that faith. He did not censor
in opinion with those who supported this measure upon the as-
sertion that, by increasing the facilities of education, and
placing the student in an easier position, the people would be
grateful. He saw by a report in the newspapers of a late
meeting of the Roman Catholic Institute, that the Provincial of
the Jesuits was present and addressed the meeting. They
might recollect. that the Catholic Emancipation Act contained
a:provision which required all the Roman Catholic regular
c orgy to register themselves. lie bad ende,voured to ascer-
tain whether there was such a reaistry, but he b_lieved that
none existed.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think much of the
argument derived from the poverty of the people of Ireland, for
he thought there was great truth hi the remark of the Hon.
and Gallant Alemtwr for Weymouth, that when the people of
Ireland sent 10,0001. to Lyons for the Propaganda, they could
support a college of their own. The Roman Catholics of Eng-
land had no d:ffieulty in supporting places for the education of
English priests. When be looked to the destination of this
grant, when he saw that it was going for the support of the
active pioneers of a faith in which he did not believe, for the
maintenance of active disturbers of the public peace, it could
not be wondered at that it had his decided opposition ; and he
murt confess that he little expected such a measure would be
brought forward by the present Government. For the various
reasons he had stated he would vote against the measure.
Mr. PA K ING TON said that be could not rgree in the
conclusion to which his lion. Friend who had just sat down
had come to, with iespect to this measure. lie was of opinion
that Protestantism would be better able to defend its position
when the present measure was carried. He was sorry that the
Right Hon Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh took up
a narrow party ground in arguing this measure. He thought
that the Right lion. Gentleman was wroeg in saying that the
present Governasent made the " No Popery" cry the means of
their getting into office.—( Ironical cheering. ) It was per-
fectly true they raised a cry to defend the Protestant religion
when they thought it was in danger ; and he was ready to take
the same course again. The Right lion. Gentleman also said
—and his lion. Friend the Member for Northamptonshire
stated the same sentiment mare broadly—that the present mea-
sure lost mitch of its grace, if not of its utility, in being
brought forward by the present. Government. Now, he thought
of all persons Ilia Right lion. Friend, who had carried Catholic
Emancipation, was the person who had the best right to pro-
pose such a measure as this. He thought the argument
put forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
the University of Dublin, and others—namely, that of the
present measure being the forerunner of others—was a very
feeble one. lie did not see why we should be in a worse position
to defend others, by consenting to the present one. lie would
not yield in his desire to uphold Protestantism to any one, and
he voted for the present measure because he did not think the
Protestant religion could be injured by it. He thought, with
his Right Hon. Friend, that the worst course that could be
adopted would be that of leaving Maynooth as it was. He
considered the state of Maynooth was one of the greatest prac-
tical evils under which Ireland suffered. He voted for the
measure on this ground, and because he looked upon it as one
step in that wise conciliatory polies, towards Ireland, which
every Government in this country ought now to carry out.—
( Cheers.) He believed that concession would be met by gra-
titude on the part of the Irish people. Entertaining these
views, he should certainly give his support to the measure re-
commended by her Majesty's Government.
Mr. P. M. sTEWART said he was anxious to say a few
words in explanation of the vote he was about to give. After
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Edinburgh, delivered last night, it would be presumption in
him to attempt to answer the speech which had been made in
reply to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edin-
burgh, by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Druitwich.
In 1841, at the general election, the weapon used by the Con-
servative, now the prevalent party in this country, was the cry
of "No Popery." That weapon was used by that party when
in Opposition with the greatest effect. In this assertion he
would be borne out by the constituencies of the country. At
that time there was a general cry in the country of " the
Church is in danger," and the cry was repeated ad wauseain.
Such was the extent to which that cry was carried, that he
who was then the distinguished leader of the Whig party, gave
utterance to the well-known expression--" that it was a heavy
blow, and great discouragement" to the party then in power.
He (Mr. Stewart) protested against the party opposite now
throwing away the weapon they had formerly used or denying
that they had used it. The lion. Member for Droitw ich had stated
that if a measure were good in itself it mattered not who intro-
duced it. The lion. Member could not have heard the forcible
manner in which this argument had been dealt with by the
Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh. That Right lion. Gen-
tleman prefaced his remarks by saying that the country had an
interest in this measure, and they also had a deep interest it,
the character of public men. lie went on to say, then, that if
this Bill were right in principle now, it must have been doubly
right at an earlier period of the sufferings of that country to
which it asplied. This was the argument used with respect
to the policy of the party opposite now, and their policy some
four years ago. lie (Mr. Stewart), differing from those with
whom he had the honour usually to act, sincerely wished that
this Bill might never reach the statute-book of these realms.
But, if it were to pass, let them not be told that the Bill in-
coked no question of principle, and therefore they ought only
to discuss points of detail. His construction—his humble con-
struction was, that no Bill had ever been introduced into
that House involving more direct and important points of
principle than the Bill which they were then discussing.
They bad been told that since 1795 a sessional grant had re-
gularly been made to the College of May nootli. The Bill
now before the House was intended to remove this annual
grant out of the reach of Parliament—in the first place to
treble the amount of the grant, and in the next place to give
30,0 0/. to the improvement of the College. Did not that in-
volve a question of principle? The country had so interpreted
it, and in his humble opinion he believed they had judged
rightly. He believed that they were, in making this grant,
violating the protest which this nation had made against
Popery. Those who had spoken in favour of this grant had
all modified their opinions. First came the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone). Then
came the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath—strong, pun-
gent, and full of argument in favour of the Bill, and against
those who dared to differ from it. How did that Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman qualify his support of this
measure? He said that if this had been the first proposal
made of the kind, if they had not been in the habit of granting
annually a sum of money to Maynooth, he would not have
assented to this measure. That was the qualified support
which came from such a quarter as the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath. Then came his Hon, Friend the Member
for Lambeth, who said that unless the amount given by this
Bill should be fixed, settled, and drawn from the source which
his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, at a future stage of
the Bill, intended to suggest, he could riot approve of the Bill.
Then came the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire-
land, who said that it was useless to meddle in this matter, for
it was better to let well alone. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then had the effrontery—he would pardon him for using such
an expression—to say that there was no well in Ireland to let
alone at that moment. Was there no " well" in lrel Ind in
1541, when the Government was given into the hands of the
present Adminstration ? Ireland was never in a more pros-
perous state than it was at the time when the late Government
left office. He believed that this Bill,
which was intended as a
sop to the Catholics, would act as an inducement to them to
make greater demands. What had Mr. O'Connell said in his
admirable speech, which showed no failing of intellect, and
no cooling of ardour in the cause of Ireland?—( Hear,
hear.) lie said, " I take this as the first fruits
of fear, and lam sure it will not be the last. You may de..
pend upon it that the next thing will be to repeal itself from
the eminent author of the Bill now before us. 'The Hon.
and Learned Gentlarnan called this a boon to misbelieve, and
he said that they would mihelieve agoin, fort they were
now beginning to reap the fruits of it. What ef-
fect could a measure of this kind have on Ireland,
or the Irish people, when it was so interpreted by their Go-
vernment and eminent leader. The measure would evidently
be merely productive of further &mantis from the people of
Ireland, When he observed the fruits of agitation in Ireland,
ho almost began to regret that they had not adopted the same.
system in his own quiet country of Scotland. In that country
they were looked upon as passive and as peaceable, and there.
fore they were capriciously disposed of. As was stated by the
lion. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Bath, on
the previous night, tso years ago the people of Scotland came
forward with respect to a great national cause conneeted with the
Scotch Church. They wished to present a petition, not for money,
not for patronage, for they abhorred the latter and they did not
value the former. They came to the door of that House with
a petition, the prayer of which was simply this, thatintsiecular
matters they might be held sub.ervient to law,theban
but
torn of civil courts and civil magistrates. Nothit only was that
petition not allowed to be brought in, but it was spurned from
doinattini n
a
spiritual matters they should be freed from tho -
their door. Was there justice in this ? He trusted that his
Catholic Friends around him would nut think that he had said
anything in the least degree hostile to them or their religion.
He admitted that the world was largely indebted to the Roman

Catholics. Every one must admirrith:e works and the charac-
ter of such men as Fenelon, Pascal, and the historian Lingard.
But he was bound to say, that he would not lend a hand to
which was calculated to risk the great principles of the
anythingreformation
They
t)ut heard
e som
woulde
tellab l et
hem speeches
that
m on delivered
n o
subjecton
on which Constitutionieht h
the
a acres
onhfoeapfri
isatriilnc)i
eehoemcrneoeuitninhittrreowyawirdt
nnieippsoetnn.
whichdtHe hdee.
mistaking the opinion of the people at large upon
There was no
tttpm,,hhasieerltftaocvihcnr(elutiurtlyelnya:r:urll ItorfYanis community
(.2 0 L N said h e felt
this subject.
ever
ttbli ailsitetlal multitudeu'ebe(t ll'isei ridicule:L:wilhoooaannfst:l:eia'°hltetlie:ritende:a';❑ 'sseurree thth iPcethitliat only proposed to the House
was fraught with evil, and could y be productive of very
doubtful good to the country. He said, for the sake of the
Althoughyet he
believedin tis opinionthat
the he
majorityw as i in
in
Catholics of Ireland and the Protestants on this side the
tfiirnyr stt"ii.:acrteeall:rii.°i°tunah;:him, representative
Channel, that he desired,
_in his heart, that this Bill might
but of the people at large—of this Pro-
never reach the statute-hook, ,Cfaotrhohleic felt
.lassdurbed, that should
it become law, it would be eradicated from the statute-book on
and as the
acrion—v
ifnocretdh sakethe
at t
the
phroat,e, sbt
eeangaienxs-t
completely exhausted--that
his vote against it.
the measure by giving
erthgneui'grnent that could be urged, fur or against the
HCouthsoelicwshse
both Protestant
over whicheniitetereddebialit:
measure, had been so often repeated, that he might hesitate. in
ri,ing to address the House, and might content himself by
t(sleuunbr,jiienecgdt,
the
beforeh e
teveryea
giving a silent vote on this occasion, but he was anxious to re-
move from himself any misconstruction which might attach to
his silent vote. He was anxious to address the House, in t rder
to declare that he did noth give the measure a hesitating or
Protestants andhts.a
doubtful support, but that ep wars interested in its success, not
only in its passage through ar lament, but for its success in
Ireland, when it had obtained the sanction of the Legislature.
So strongly was he convinced of the necessity and justice of the
measure, that he only wished that, in the few observations
which he would venture to address to the House, he could
impress on those who did him the honour of listening to
him for a short time, his conscientious conviction
of the wisdom of the measure, which was so deeply
fixed in his own mind. The Honourable Gentleman who
last addressed the House appealed very strongly—especially in
the concluding portion of his speech—to the religious feelings
of the community. fie was ready to admit that the religious
feelings of the community had been reused. He admitted that
there was a great deal of opposition to the Bill; he was con-
vinced that no statesman could with propriety be rash enough
to disregard such feelings ; but it was the duty of a statesman
to carefully examine whether or not these religious feelings were
based on justice. The Hon. Gentleman who last sit dqwn
said that if the Government had foreseen tha reception which
this measure had experienced, they would have reconsidered
their conduct. He (the Earl of Lincoln) imagined that the
Hon. Gentleman meant to imply that the Government would
have shunned that expression of religious feeling, and would

not have dared to introduce the measure. He believed—in
fact, he knew—that his Right Hon. Friend, not only when he
brought forward the question a few nights ago, but when he
gave notice of his intention last year, was well aware of the
ri,k which he was running, and the manner in which it was
likely to be received ; and he thought this of itself sufficiently
answered the taunt raised against the Government by several
Hon. Members, more especially by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Edinburgh—the taunt of inconsistency.
The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had, he thought,
answered that taunt when he said that there had been no call
fur this measure. If there had been no call, and if these feel-
ings had been antieilated, he should like to know what but the
imperious sense of duty could have induced the Government to
bring it forward ?—( Hear. ) The question of contract in this
matter had been repeatedly argued and re-argued, during three
nights' debate. A great number of Hon. Gentlemen, includ-
ing the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh,
denied that any contract existed, or even, he believed, an im-
plied contract. lie (the Earl of Lincoln) was ready to rest
his vote upon the merits of the measure itself; but he did not
at all agree with those who asserted that there was no contract,
or that a contract had ever existed. He could not agree with
those who asserted that there was no contract, any more than
with those who declared that a new religious al ineiple was in-
volved in the present measure. In discussing the question of
contract, he felt, as he hail already stated, that there were touch
higher grounds for defending the measure ; but he felt con-
vinced in his own mind, seeing that two Acts of the Irish Par-
liament had created and sanctioned the measure—( Hear)—
seeing that the acts of tin. Irish Legislature had been sanc-
tioned by the Imperial Parliament of Great Britain, which
had devised regulations respecting the College, appointing
trustees; and he might remark by the way that those trustees
had been appointed when the Legislature was Protestants;
and at a time when none but Protestants could be trustees. In
the year 1809, and in the year 1813, this vote had been revised
for the purpose of increasing it, and for the purpose of giving
a better mode of education and an increased ',umber of stu-
dents. He could not witness all these facts, without feeling
that they had been committed to the principle, and that a
contract had existed, not indeed a contract mitten in a formal
manner, and having that legal force which would bind an in-
dividual, but such a contract as alone could exist between the
Government and the governed. He had stated just now
his disbelief that any new religious principle was involved
in the measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Edinburgh had sneered at the allegation that no religious
principle was involved in the measure. What he (the Earl of
Lincoln) asserted was, that no religious principle was involved.
There was the same religious principle in the measure of 1795.
The question was then settled and disposed of. It was now only a
question of arithmetical calculation, with which religious prin-
ciples had nothing to do. In 1795 the measure had been pro-
posed that had been suggested by Burke and approved
by Pitt. It had been la id before the 'prelates of
England for their sanction and approval, passed through
both Houses of Parliament—a Parliament exclusively Pro•
testant—sanctioned and rem iced the force of law in the reign
of George 111., a monarch whose memory Englishmen reve-
renced, but more especially extolled by those who maintained
the principle of Protestant ascendancy. It', then, a measure
was sanctioned and continued under such cirenmstances, for
such a length of time, could they then, in 1845, in a reformed
Parliament, with a House of Commons to which Roman Catho•
lies had been admitted, and who were commingled with the
legislation in all matters connected with the empire—could
they, he said, pass a resolution for the purpose of discontinuing
the grant altogether ? If they admitted and believed, as the
Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh
had admitted, they could not, with justice, discontinue the
vote altogether, any objection fell to the ground against
the proposal to increase it. Whilst upon this part of the ques-
tion he would quote the words of Mr. Grattan on a similar
occasion. In 1 Xll Mr. Grattan said, in answer to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of that day, that he was not aware of
the strength of the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument. That
although we adopted the original grant we were not obliged to
allow it. "If (said Mr. Grattan) the principle be even al-
lowed, the limitation of the grant seemed only fixed by the cir-
cumstances of the time—to act otherwise would be nominally
to adopt, but ultimately to defeat the principle." This grant
had been continued for a number of years. He would not say
that fifty years' usage made right wrong. He was willing to
admit the force of the maxim, that no length of tune could jus-
tify evil—that what was wrong in morals could not be right in
politics. But then he was compelled to ask, was any such maxim
involved in the measure before the House ? Was there any pro-
posal involving an infringement of religious principles ? Was the
endowment of the institution different in a religious point of view
from making an annual vote? He did not subscribe to any such
opinions. If Hon. Gentlemen really believed that a religious
principle was involved, he called upon them to act up to that
belief. They could not stop here ; they could not be content
with the rejection of the measure before the House. He be-
lieved that some among his Hon. Friends that had spoken on
the question were willing to go further—were willing to repeal
the Act of Parliament altogether ; but he did not think they
would vindicate their consistency even by this step. They
must go further. They must resist any contribution to the
Dissenters of Ireland—the application of the Regions Doown.
They must withdraw from all the colonies the spiritual assist-
ance of the priests of the Roman Catholic faith. His Hon.
Friend (the Member for Newcastle) said, on moving the
amendment, that he was ready to make an exception
in favour of the colonies, in consequence of treaties that bound
them to those payments. Where then was the principle ?
Let him remind his Hon. Friend that, if he considered this to
be a religious principle, he could not but resist it. No ques-
tion of expediency could step in where religions principle stood
upon the threshold. Therefore, his Hon. Friend and those
who thought with him should be prepared to act upon this
principle, and to treat those treaties as mere waste paper. No
consideration of temporal advantage to the colonies should
withhold them from acting on such principles. He looked
upon this question as unconnected with any principle of
religion. He saw in Ireland a priesthood placed in 'he midst
of a people who were poor and ignorant. The priesthood
must possess influence and popularity in precise proportion to
their qualities and merits. He saw a priesthood placed in
Ireland under these circumstances, and could he then hesitate
seeing the immensa moral influence they possessed to adopt
means to educate the people. Could he hesitate to give in-
struction to those by whom alone the people of Ireland were
willing to receive instruction ? He confessed he did not despair
of seeing the hearts of the priesthood interested in the common
cause of the empire. lie did not despair of seeing the Roman
Catholic priesthood labouring with them in the common field,
not of religion, but of the regeneration and improvement of
the country. if such a consummation as this was to be
attained, he would appeal to the Right Honourable
Gentleman (the Member for Oxford) whether he would no
make a sacrifice, short of that in which he though
religion vas involved? But he believed that to such a consum.

mation this must be the first step. Without a measure of this
kind, nothing they could do would be met in a grateful spirit.
He believed that unless they passed a measure placing, in a
better position than they at present stood, the priesthood of
Ireland, the best efforts of the Government would be thwarted,
and nothing they could do would have the desired effect. Se-
veral Hon. Gentlemen who had addressed the House, more
particularly the Members fur Harwich and Warwickshire, had
laid stress on what they conceived to be the imperfect insti-
tution of Maynooth up to the present time.—( Hear.) Those
Hon. Gentleman had said that the experiment had been tried
for fifty Sears—that it had failed, and that therefore it was the
incumbent duty of Parliament to withdraw instead of increase
the grant. But the Hon. Gentlemen who had come to such
a conclusion had not inquired into the causes of the failure.
He was not now about to go into any further detail, regarding
the present condition of the institution, but he believed the
assertion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth,
who asserted that Maynooth was in a condition such as
any man could wi h to see it, was incorrect.
He would not allude to the system of religion
or education practised there, but he firmly believed that the
grant at present allowed by Parliament, from its limited na-
ture, caused the whole system pursued there to be illiberal, and
was not likely to impress on the minds of the students
any grateful feelings towards the State. Before they pro-
nounced Maynooth to be a failure they ought to increase the
comforts of the inmates. It was said that no system of edu-
cation could succeed among the humbler classes, unless their
physical wants were first consulted. The same argument ap-
plied to Maynooth. He hoped the House would not attempt to
interfere with the system of instruction pursued at Maynooth,
nor attempt to raise up spiritual with temporal education
there. Such was the opinion of Mr. Burke. —( The Noble
Lord then quoted the opinion of Mr. Burke on this subject,
which has already been given in this debate.) Such a course
(continued the Noble Lord), would only have the effect of
making the laity bigoted, without making the clergy more
liberal. The Hon. Member for Armagh had complained of
the time at which this measure had been brought forward,
and the Member for Harwich took the same line of conduct.
He had stated that this was not the proper time fur the intro-
duction of this measure, but he (the Earl of Lincoln) believed
that it was precisely the time, because this was the moment
when the grant ought to be made, and the manner of it he con-
oeived to be of equal importance with the time at which it was
made. The Hon. Member for Dungarvon (Mr. Sheil) in a
speech the other night, which was characterised with more than
his usual eloquence, had reminded them that Mr. O'Connell in
the whole of his speeches had asserted, that all the concessions
that had been made had been extorted from their fears.
But, he would ask, could it now be asserted that this
concession had been extorted from their fears ? and he
conceived that this was the precise moment when this mea-
sure should be introduced. Agitation had been suppressed,
the supremacy of the law had been vindicated, and the clamour
for repeal had been hushed in the murmur of general industry
and commercial prosperity. They had neither conflicts nor
wars, none even of those little wars which Hon. Gentlemen
opposite had left as a legacy to their successors—there were
not even rumours of wars. ylf this measure were adopted. he
believed that it would tend to promote the peace of Ireland.
The House should remember that the question was not now in
the position in which it stood before it was introduced.
They had offered this chalice of goodwill to the people of Ire-
land, and he trusted that they would not frustrate those hopes.
For himself he felt that his vote would be attended with a very
painful responsibility, and it was not without much serious con-
sideration that he had come to the decision to vote for this
grant to Maynooth, and that he had felt it necessary to express
his sentiments upon it. During the twelve years which he bad
had the honour of holding a seat in that. House he
had never until now had the misfortune to differ
with a majority of his constituents, but on this
subject he felt it his duty—his most painful duty—to
follow the impulse of his conscience and the dictates of his rea-
son.—( Hear, hear.) There were other reasons, too, which
would make this vote a most painful one—( Loud and con-
tinued cheering)--which would make this vote a most painful
one, but which it would be neither right or becoming in him
to explain to that House.—( Cheers. ) But he trusted that,
however severe the trial, be still was determined to do justice
to his country, and persevere in the course which principle and
conviction alike pointed out to him ; and while he regretted
the pressure to which many of his friends were subjected, he
would yet, with all humility, urge upon them to act upon the
impressions which they had adopted, for, notwithstanding the
opinions that their constituents might at pi eient express, yet
they might feel assured that they would act upon their future
convictions, and, allowing the claims upon their respect
accord to them lasting esteem.—(Cheers,)
Lord WORSLEY said, that he had presented petitions,
from not only a large number of the body of the Wesleyans,
but also from many of the Dissenting Congregations from that
part of the county of Lincoln with which he was connected,
and he should not now have obtruded himself on the House
on this occasion, but that he thought it would be both more
honest and honourable to do so, rather than give a silent vote
or absent himself from the House. He had al,o the misfor-
tune to differ from a great portion of his constituent. on
this question. He had come to that House, it was true, up-
pledged on this or any other subject—but
.his sentimentsbut were.
not unknown, for not only had he declared them,
1535, when his Noble Friend, the Member for the City of
London,
moved for a Select Committee to consider thPSt4ant:
of ecclesiastical affairs in Ireland, with a view to eppropriate
the surplus fund for the education of the people at large,
to all bodies of Christians, and he should therefore, with a
view to follow out the liberal policy of his Noble Friend
towards Ireland, vote for the second reading. But whilst thus
declaring his intention of giving his support to that extent to
the Bill, lie must at the same time say that, in conformity
r with
the views that he had then expressed, he shmild s occur also
rite propositiop of the llon. Mernbcyfo-:Shef&e
tii
ldOlr_.;
'ti
and oprosc4 the appropriation of the
;6,000. from ICVarkl;
onso-
lidated Fund.
Mr. M. MILNES said that he hp
tltis as the first
ptep of 4 great Ineasuti.•-4 loolsed oti it its a stop onto s--
carrying out the effects of a
rlace4 9A the Nvo--

—.Lion. which'
As et the House last session,

endowment of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) The question was not now whether they
should add a few more comforts, or elevste the pesition of the
Romish clergy, for he believed that on that point nei her his
Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. Inglis), nor any
other Member of that House, would entertain the slightest
objection on that account to give a little more furniture to the
rooms of the students, of a decent front to the building, or
throw an air of cheerfulness over those gloomy apartments,
by giving them some of the refinements of England. Ile did
not think that. there was any fear that the addition of such
comforts, or the introduction of snore wealth to the Roman
Catholic establishments of the country would tend to advance
the religion of Ireland, for if they did the Irish Protestant
Church would not have remained in the same stationary posi-
tion which it had held fur the last forty years. He believed
that Ten his Hon. Friend the Member for Kent (Mr.
Plumptre) if he saw a Roman Catholic priest lying wounded
by the wayside, would stoop down to help him up ; and yet if
he did that he would beau, poring Popery —( Great laughter
and he never had been more shocked in the whole course of his
life than when he heard the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Oxford express a feeling that he would rather see the Roman
Catholic priesthood of Irelsnd suffering all their present
deficiency, if they were 1 k sly to become such nun
as Bossuet or Dr. Wiseman. Something had been
said about the contract. He believed that the terms of the
contract had been fulfilled at the clone of the war, for the ob-
ject for which this grant was made had been to secure domes
tic education for the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland,
when England was fearful of injury from their foreign rela-
tions. But he believed that Mr. Pitt, who made that con-
tract, would look upon its spirit in a very different light ; and
he thought that if the spirit of Mr. Pitt were hovering over
them at that moment, he would view their proceedings with
singular complacency. If there was one thing that could en-
hance the value of this gift more than another, it was the
frank and honourable manner with which the Honourable
Baronet had proposed it. Great reflection had been thrown
upon the administration of the present Government in Ireland,
but he believed that nothing was more unwise—nothing more
unjust. That Government had gone the right way to conciliate
the people of Ireland—( Hear, hear)—by the only way in
which the Irish people would or could accept conciliation—and
that was, by placing the priesthood in a position of respect-
ability and honour ; and if the Right Hon. Baronet wished to
bring peace to that country, he would follow the good ex-
ample of his predecessors to the utmost.—(" Hear, hear,"
and cheers.) Yet in doing this he must so act
as to save himself from the reproach from which his prede-
cessors had suffered, for he could effect all this without touching
upon the privileges or the rights of the Protestant establish-
ments in that country.—( Laughter. ) He thought it neces-
sary to say this, because the object of the Whigs had been the
destruction of that establishment. —( Cries of " No, no," and
" Hear, hear.") Well, he thought it necessary to state this,
because he conceived that the motives of Hon. Members on
both sides of the House should be fully developed on this subject.
If the question had been brought forward by the opposite side
of the House he would have given it his fullest support.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that in all questions of polities ex-
pediency was the best rule.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
He thought that the question of principle was used as the most
important in cases which we opposed, and expediency was
adopted in all cases of which we approved. He was glad that
this proposition had been brought forward at this time, and by
the men by whom it was introduced.—(A laugh. ) The cir-
cumstances of Ireland required it. lie was glad that his Right
Hon. Friend, with the Duke of Wellington, who resisted Ca-
tholic Emancipation until that resistance brought on the threat
of a civil war, now interposed their power and their wisdom,
foregoing their previous determinations, and showing the
world that it was not any spirit of misanthropy which actuated
them.—( Cheers ) They sacrificed all previous views for the
purposes of reconciling the interests of the nation.— (Cheers. )
They did not go on as the Government of a neighbouring coun-
try was going on, faintly endeavouring to work out good mea-
sures against a mistaken and factious opposition.—(Cheers.)
They proposed measures in which all that wished for the good
of the country could agree. He hoped the House would assist the
Government, and regard all measures, not with regard to the
views of any faction, but with regard to the general good of the
country.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He believed that
all the opponents of the Bill were well-meaning men in the
closet.—( Great laughter.) They were, some of them, men
whom he esteemed in private hie, but to whom he would not
entrust the destinies of his country.—( Cheers and laughter.)
He hoped this measure would pass, and that there would be no
occasion to revert to that:severity towards Ireland which, at all
times, could only be regarded as an amiable misanthropy.—
( Cheers and laughter.) lie considered his Hon. Friend
near him an amiable misanthrope.—(Great laughter. )
The grievances inflicted upon Ireland by this country was
great. It was necessary to compensate them—(Cheers)—and
if the loss of his own seat were the consequence of his vote, he
would (to use the words of Hon. Members opposite) adopt the
present occasion as the most auspicious for the sacrifice.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY had no doubt it was an exceed-
ingly entertaining thing for any person who stood in a position
of political antagonism in that House, to indulge in matters of
crimination and recrimination on one side and on the other—to
contrast the conduct of persons on the present occasion with
that of past years, but he felt, as a Roman Catholic Member for
Ireland, that he was not in a situation to adopt such a course.
It was for him to leave it to others who had
before fought in the arena of uncertain politics to adopt such a
course. He stood upon neutral ground to consider as a Roman
Catholic what the proposition of her Majesty's Government was
towards Ireland, and not in any spirit of crimination or
recrimination which had been so freely indulged in by Hon.
Gentlemen en bath sides of the House. He conscientiously
believed the measure before them would have the advantage of
paving the way to the permanent peace of both countries, and
if it were sanctioned by the House in a cordial and liberal
spirit, it would lead to the existence of a lasting unanimity
between the two nations. It was in that spirit that he now
came before the House as a Roman Catholic Member, to sup-
port the Government ; but if it should so happen that in
the course of his address he overstepped in sonic measure that
spirit in which he wished to view the question, lie hoped the
House would not look upon it in the light of obloquy, but
attribute it to the natural fervour of an Irishman. having
said thus much, he would proceed very shortly, be-
fore coming to the principle of the proposition, to review
certain speeches which had been made against the measure
by Hon. Gentlemen who sat on the other side of the House.
The first speech, and almost the first arguments against the
Bill he had an opportunity of hearing were those of the Hon.
Member for Newcastle. That speech breached two proposi-
tions. One was that a degree of ignorance existed in the
College of Maynooth, which was not only lamentable, but ac-
tually ridiculous; and yet the principal recommendation of
the Hon. Member was to withhold any grant of public money,
which was calculated to remove the evils of which he com-
plained. The Honourable Member next declared that there
was something in the exclusive character of this institution
which was truly repugnant to the feelings. New, if the lion.
Member for Newcastle had made that speech on Thursday
evening, when the Hon. Member for Weymouth brought for"
ward his motion for throwing open the Universities of this
country to the members of all religious denominations,
it would have been exceedingly applicable to the
occasion.—(Cheers.) In Ireland the feeling had long
been favourable to the throwing open of Trinity College to all
classes, but the zealous efforts of the people had never yetite-,.
cured that boors. They refused to throw open Tri •
lege to the Roman Catholics, and the people, ther
Parliament to make some provision for the at
Maynooth. And this brought him to the principle' of the
measure. He found that the proposition of the Go-
vernment was to give a certain sem towards the endow-
ment of a Roman Catholic College in Ireland. He had been
told by some lion. Members who opposed it, that there was no
compact for making this provision; and, for his part, he never
did consider that any existed. He merely looked to this grant
as a matter recurring from year to year; but he would ask
any person, whether there was no implied compact in the first
instance? He would ask him whether there was not a tone
and temper in the state of society in this country, at the time
the grant was first made, as to lead to the belief that it was in-
tended to be permanent and fixed? Some lion. Members
did not object to the grant while it was kept at 9,0001. a year ;
but when Government proposed to raise it to 30,000/., thay
opposed it beause the grant was encouraging error. Now he
confessed this was the first time he had ever heard that there
was such a thing as a sliding scale in morality. He
could not understand how that could be base at 30,000/.,
which was not so at 9,000/. The latter sum was evidently
not sufficient to maintain the College; but the Hon. Member
for Perth was of a different opinion. The Hon. Member for
Perth thought the grant conferred every comfort on the in-
mates of Maynooth ; and in support of this opinion the Hon.
Member quoted a passage from a work written by a Mr. James
Grant, but his lion. Friend the Member for Dungarvon appeared
to give no weight to that opinion, because it was given by a
Scotchman, who might not be supposed to be the best judge of
the comforts or the use of trousers.—( Laughter.) Now he (Mr.
Sergeant Murphy) should very much like to have the notions of
Mr. Grant on the subject of dress. He held in his hand a
book which that gentleman had devoted to a description of that
House, and certainly his delineations of articles of dress, and
other matters, were well calculated to convince Hon. Members
what amount of judgment this respectable Scotch traveller
was likely to possess upon the merits and corn forts of this semi-
nary. He would commence with the description of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, whose per-
son and dress this gentleman had described in the most
graphic manner. He was quite sure any one who heard the
description would say at once, "there is the man." Mr.
Grant said, " The Right Hon Baronet's usual dress is a green
surtout"—( Roars of laughter, in which the Right Hon.
Baronet heartily joined)—" light waistcoat, and dark trousers.
lie generally displays a watch-chain, with a bunch of gold
seals, of large dimensions."—(Roars of laughter.) Now let
the House, continued the Hon. Member, listen to what fol.
lowed. He was sure that the Right lion. Gentleman would
feel that it was a calumny upon him, "He can scarcely be
called a dandy—(Roars of laughter)—and yet he sacrifices a
good deal to the Graces—(Renewed laughter)—and for my
part I hardly know any public man who dresses in better
taste." That was the description of the Right Hon, Baronet.
He now came to another description of a somewhat different
character, the description of the Gallant Colonel the Member
for Lincoln.—( Shouts of laughter.) lie saw the Gallant
Colonel in his place on the opposite benches, and as he ap-
peared, in the spirit of good humour, to appreciate the faithful-
nessd of the other portrait, he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) would
make no bones about reading the description given _e of the
Gallant Colonel himself the voracious writensary;
" His countenance is altogether unique.—( Roars of laughter,
It stands out, in broad relief, from the countenances ei 4i I the
other Members.—( Continued laughter.) Tgq theoe e: the
senators rejoice in tufts, a few more in whiskers,__t
but the whis-
kers of the Gallant Membes for Lincoln left in the distance
and out of all proportion, the whiskers of l
other Hon. I‘, leokbers..
You hardly know whether he has a mouth ee sot—(Laughter.
from all parts of the House, which the Gallant Colonel
heartily joined)—it so completely,, buried amidst a crop of
hair, until he begins to speak. But let them snarls the
" plums of the pudding. "He would do and suaer a great deal
for his party and principles, but rather than submit to be
shaved, he would see Toryism and party scattered to the
winds."—(Shouts of laughter.) He would go a little further,
and come to this side of the Hease, and he would turn to the
description of his Hon. Frierid, the Member for Isainieth.--,
(Laughter, ) Ile speaks frequently--( Laughter)—a
d hter)--d
--an
nerally on unimportant subjects--
( Continue laughter)—and
there is not one great principle with which he is
identified,
He is a little man—
Shouts of laug
a dark cemexien. bier) —round-faced, and Qf
pl '
—(Laughter.) He should not keep the
House much longer, but would just quote Another of the
graphic portraits from the book before him. He found it
stated of the Right Hon. Moralies fin- Perth, " that he was of
extremely gsassofai proportions, and of retiring habits."
Now, he was sure that no Hon Member in thht Howse, after
hearing these descriptions read, cou'd doubt the com-
petency of the atithclrit/ cAtiOtod' by the Right
..,..emvor AOC Perth, in all matters
Comfort, dress, kW contenience.—( Hear, hear, and laughier.)
There had been two objections, which be had found generally
urged to the House in opposition to this Bill. It was stated
in the first place that they boasted of supporting their own
clergy, and it was asked why they did not also instruct them
themselves upon the voluntary principle? Hi 3 answer was,
that they were willing to pay them themselves if the establish-
meet in Ireland were entirely changed ; but, as proved by the
report of Psaor-law Constnissioners, they had new in addi-
tion tQ their caber burdens to maintain a T"
amounting to 9,400;00n,.....( Hear .';:per pop
:Le non, Member eelation,
, ..ear.) Per
were asked by
POrtod elmca—
• stle how it was that they sup-
oie voluntary rinciple, and yet accepted this grant
..,wards 1 from Government? vie would tell the Hon. Member.
rcum.
In the
he had first place, he would receive it because owing to other ei
for the stances, he found a meritorious class in a state of misery and