The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

THritSDAY MORNING, AptuL 17, Mb.

Turner, Mr. Hume, Mr. Fielding, Lord Ashley, and
several other H4)O. Members.
MAYNOOTII—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day for the adjourned debate was
then read, and the Speaker called on
Mr. HA MILTON, who said that he must certainly
confess that it was with great reluctance, but under an
imperative sense of duty, he felt compelled to vote against
the measure. Whilst he opposed the measure lie thought,
it right to state that he understood, and high'y appre-
ciated, the motives of the Government in proposing it—
namely, their desire to indicate kind feelings towards the
Catholics of Ireland, and to conciliate that body by that
might be considered a liberal and suitable endowment
fer their priesthood. No Member in the House felt
more strongly than he did how desirable it was that the
esteem and regard of the Catholic population of Ireland
should he secured to the Government and Legislature of
this empire. No Member of the House was more
anxious than he was to see all causes of
alienation removed, and the tNo great parties
in Ireland holding out the right hand of brother-
hood and friendship to each other, and he would ,
with that feeling willingly concur in the present motion,
if it. were nst, inconsistent with higher obligations.
And if he really thought that the measure which was
proposed by tlie Government w'ould have that elf et
which the Government thought it would have, and it' he
could reconcile it to his conscience to support this measure,
no consideration of consistency, or of the pecu-
liar position which he held in this House, should
induce him to oppose it.. He, therefore, felt com-
pelled to state unreservedly the reasons which
compelled him to oppose this measure ; and he
felt it the more incumbent on him to do so, because
the same reasons had -been alluded to by the Hon. and
Learned Member fcr Bath. not for the first time, and
had, as he thought, been Misunderstood by that Hon
and Learned Gentleman ; and because the speech of
the Right Honourable Gentleman the late President
of the Board of Trad seemed to have been
intended to contravene them. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Bath had stated,
and that not for the first time, his opinion that States
had nothing to do with religion. The argument of
the Right Honourable Gentleman the late Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, and it was the
first time the Right Honourable Gentleman had
used that argument, appeared to him to amount to the
same thing, for although he stated that a perfect agree-
ment in religious opinions between a State and every
member of that State would be the consummation of poli-
tical happiness—a consummation, however, that we had
no right to expect—yet the Right Hon. Gentleman
stated, that if such were not the ease, that all sects of
religion, without reference to the truth or falsehood of
their doctrines, had equal claims upon the Government.
He (Mr. Hamilton) was not ashamed or afraid to avow
that he had always thought that the consideration of the
truth of religious doctrines just as much as the considera-
tion of the truth of morality, or of the doctrines of trade
or commerce, was within the scope and responsibility of
Government. He considered that it was the paramount
duty of every Christian State to affirm that prin-
ciple by recognising some intelligible principle of
religious belief; and if religion was something true and
something tangible, then the holding of certain religious
doctrines was essential to the truth. It was the duty of
the State certainly to protect and to tolerate every
member of the State in the exercise of his t eligious
opinions, whatever they might be ; but yet it
was a gross inconsistency and a great dere-
liction from that homage which was due to
a truth for a State to support two systems of religion
incompatible with and contradictory to each other. It
could not be denied that theiProtestant religion is the re-
ligion of the State, and that as such it was held to be
true. The British empire and the British Constitution
were an empire and a Constitution which provided
against what were considered the errors of the Church
of Rome, and if that be so he confessed that he was
unable to discover how it was possible to make it con-
sistent for that State to countenance and encourage the
Roman Catholic or any other religion differing
the length of a thumb from the State Church.'
The Hon. Member for Bath said that the Constitution
had nothing at all to do with religion; if that were true
they ought to unprotestantise the empire, and to abo-
lish the coronation oath as being unconscientious, and it
ought to be competent for the Sovereign to become a
Roman Catholic. He would not recognise the distinc-
tion which had been drawn by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Newark, and several other Gentle-
men in the course of the debate, between the duties that
devolved on the Members of the House in their collective
and individual capacity. It did appear to him (Mr. Hamil-
ton) that the same duty precisely which devolved on the
State devolved upon every member of the State who en-
tertained the same opinions as those held by the State.
Gentlemen of the Roman Catholic religion may justly
ask for their religion to be encouraged and indulged—it
would display no inconsistency on their part ;
but, holding as be did that their tenets were
not conformable with God's revealed truth, he
should not think he was doing his duty if be were to
vote for the encouragement of a religion which he held
with the State to be erroneous. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Member for Bath argued as if there
were some great degree of arrogance and Pharisaical
assumption on the part of those who held certain reli-
gious opinions in their public capacity, and should act on
that belief. He (Mr. Hamilton) did not think that their
opinions on religion differed in this respect from their
opinions on any other subject. The Hon. Member for
Bath held himself very strong opinions, and was never
very sparing of those who presumed to differ with him.
He was a great admirer of truth, both in politics and
religion ; and he could sincerely say, that he had
sought for truth in both, without reference either to
creed or party. It was his firm belief that the great
cause of truth was much more likely to be advanced
by men conscientiously standing by their own opinions,
either in religion or politics, than by exhibiting a false
liberality, which was only calculated to confound truth,
for the sake of pleasing certain parties who were
allied to error.--(Hear, hear.) 'The observations
he had taken the liberty of' making on this subject
made it obvious that he thought the State was called
upon to encourage and promote the Protestant system of
religion in this country; but with respect to the colonies
it appeared to him to be different. Each colony in itself had
a separate constitution under separate legislatures, but,
at the same time, he must confess that he thought it the
duty of the State to establish, as fur as possible,
a branch of the State Church in every one of
the colonies. There were many other conside-
rations which compelled him to vote against the
measure. He had already stated that it appeared to
him to be an endowment of Maynooth, andto involve the
abdication of Protestantism and the Constitution. It in-
volved the complete and whole principle of the endow-
ment of the . Roman Catholic priesthood, and that
was a serious question, and one with reference to
which this House and the country had a fair right to
expect some statement from her Majesty's Ministry.
The House ought also to consider the effect which this
measure must have upon public opinion in Ireland, with
reference to religious matters. The House ought to re- (
collect that at this moment in Ireland a great struggle
was going on between two great antagonistic principles,
sustained and supported by two rival countries.
Now the effect of this measure must necessarily be
to throw all the weight of the Legislature
and the Government into the Roman Catholic scale, and
that, in his opinion, was a matter of serious considera-
tion. It was a serious thing to consider that, whilst
means were denied for the education of the children
of members of the Established Church in Ireland,
the Government were making provision for the
education of the clergy of the Roman Catholic persua-
sion, and at the time, too, when the great body of these
clergymen had declared themselves strong oppo-
nents of the British connexion, and while some of
these clergy were endeavouring to arrest the
free progress of religious opinion in Ireland.
The last objection which he would take the liberty of
stating against the proposed measure was, that the Le-
gislature wanted a sufficient control over the sys.lttemhof
education and principles which were inculcatedth
in
teCollege of Maynooth. He certainly approached
sub-
ject with the greatest dislike and reluctance, and he
could assure Hon. Members professing the Roman Ca-
tholic religion that he had no intention of offending
could be more unfair than to
impute error to others, who must be supposed to be as
their feelings. Nothing
justly conscientious in exercising their own judgment,
and just as anxious on this subject as he could possibly
be ; and he could assure the House that be was far from
depraved of all tastes—the taste of
inheriting that most
criminating the principles of his opponents. But in a
question of this kind he thought it his duty to speak
out—he thought the country had a right to know what
the principles were which were inculcated at the College
of Maynooth. He was quite ready to admit, that if
unfaicrattiotoilnietse.rfeir,ehewßitchmtahne
Parliament in its wisdom should determine to endow the
Roman Catholic College of Maynooth, it would be
andloexmpaenet that their religious
Roman
to know whether their
be respected. But he thought
and._ whether any political in-
fluences,°retehPquiCatholicsropinions
doctrinesiliynua ssl
socialoiapo in%. unreasonableegeo irnuhoeotl nt
drshraot jiaongf udthtsi tt.
al,se)o' ants-social, were at work among them.
her Majesty's
and doctrines
his
s to the peace
ußhilginh t
hHaodn.aFssreiretnedd
thattOhne Memberac er
of the country were at
Lord, k inimicalh establishment
It was, thfatlAtthaeypnooloittihe.al doctrinesli
of Maynooth. A Noble in replying to the speech
of his Right Hon. Friend, had accused heimsthiaeojrfesietmyx,ppsiuotdintgdta formerin nightfpeor
political
ti
theoaf
University theinfl influence
ee nb
et es
of:
to the Roman Catholics certain doctrines subversive of
the Constitution, but what was the statement of his
were at that very moment inculcated and
Right Hon. Friend ?
- e was
aware that statements had been made to the
which the Noble Lord
tthsh alaeltdhtehwaccei
preroifneelhit
Go-
vernment, to
taught within the walls 43
inculcated at Maynooth were ultra-trarnontane ; if so,
then he (Mr. Ilamilton).!sould
-ay they were most
objectionable, and should not
Right Hon. Btahreoneffeteeatt
be supported by
that House, because if they were, as a consequence the
ecclesiastical law and principles of the Roman Catholics
of Ireland would be dangerous to the best interests of
the British Coe stitution. He would ask, why not make
inuir
into this subject ? or was it right that the
Parliament and the country should be kept in
the dark upon it ?—(Hear, hear.) C 4 uld it be
consistent that no inquiry should be had, when in-
quiry was so much called for, and
to endow at a time when the
Government were about
College, thereby giving their countenance to the doc-
trines to be taught in that Collegse__Hear, hear.) He
did think this inquiry was called
For, and so thought
those from whom he had presented petitions. He had
that day presented a petition from the congregation of
Harold's Cross, near Dublin, which was very strong,
but still respectful, for if it were not, he would not pre-
sent
it. The petitioners stated their objections and their
grounds for them. The objections were not to the
Roman Catholic religion or the doctrines of Maynooth,
but to what was contained in their class-books, and they

called for inquiry; and he could only say, if the charges
contained in the petition were true, it was his firm belief
that no :jambes of that House, be he Catholic, or be
he Protestant, could get up in his place and de-
fend a measure for the maintenance of an esta-
blishment where such doctrines were inculcated.
He appealed se those Hon. Gentlemen to take the
matter into their own hands. Let them judge for them-
selves, and if they should find that the allegations
which had been made were true, he called on them
to have the existing system changed. Ile called
on them to have the objectionable class-books removed
from Maynooth, and to free the college from the imputa-
tion of inculcating tenets and doctrines they themselves
abjured. Ile trusted that he had said nothing which
could fairly be considered as calculated to wound
the feelings of any Honourable Gentleman. He had
endeavoured to compress within the least possible
compass the observatiens which he had to make to the
House. Ile knew that subject had been exhausted, and
he felt, therefore, that it was only necessary f. r
him to state the reasons which hsd actuated him
to declare with great reluctance his del.( rmination of
giving his strenuous opposition to this. Bill in all its
stages. When the lion. entleman sat down, at least
a d, s. n Members rose ta address the House. The
Speaker, however, called upon
Mr. ELLICE (Coventry), who said that it was not
his intention (contrary to his general usage),
to give a silent vote on the present occasion.
So much c xcitement had been got up, and he
had received so many petitions from respectable
bodies of his constituents against the opinion which he
entertained on this subject, that he felt himself com-
pelled, with much reluctance, to state very shortly
the reasons which would induce him without the least
hesitation to give his cordial support to the second
reading of this Bill. He might probably hereafter vote
with his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield on the
motion of which he had given notice, with respect
to the quarter from which all funds should
be taken for the advancement of religion
and religious education in Ireland ; but he
(Mr. Eliiee) was prepared now to state, that if he
should fail with his lion. Friend in carrying that
proposition into effect, still he would give his support to
the present measure, believing it to be an act of tardy
justice, and a partial restitution to the Irish
people.—(Hear and cheers.) Ile would not follow the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, in the religious
objections which he had advanced to this motion. He
did not think, after so many nights' debate, and with he
prospect of as many more—(Laughter)—that he had any
right to waste the time of the House in discussing that
subject. He said this without the least want of respect
to the Hon. Gentleman himself, or the manner in which
he had stated his objections on this subject. But he
(Mr. Ellice) felt himself called upon to give
an opinion upon measures introduced for the
benefit and advantage of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not follow the Hon. Gentleman into the ex-
pression of those opinions on the religious subjects
which he had brought before Parliament. lie could not
say that because his opinions happened to coincide
with those of one-tenth of the people of' Ireland,
that he should impose his opinions on the remainder.
He could not conceive under what circumstances this
country could persevere in a system which thus
outraged the feelings of a great portion of the
country. According to the view of the Hon. Gentle-
man, those who constituted four-fifths of the population
were to receive this grant of money from the
Government of this country because they
differed in opinion with him. Why, the Ho-
nourable Gentleman had expressed his approbation
of the reginat demon, and of all the other grants
to the Church of Scotland, and he could not conceive
on what principle it was that, while he approved of those
grants, and of the approbation bestowed on some
congregations in the north of Ireland, he was
so opposed to any assistance to the Church of Rome,
and the several parties were with respect to the Govern-
ment precisely in the same position.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear," and " No, no," from Mr. Hamilton.) What, did the
Hon. Gentleman mean to say that there was a greater
difference of opinion between the Church of England and
the Socinians, than there was between the Church of
Rome and the Church of this country? In giving his
vote on this occasion, be should be guided by the same
principles as those which had regulated his conduct
during the whole of the time he had held a seat in that
House—that principle was, that every man in the coun-
try was entitled to equal protection from the State,
whatever might be his creed or opinion. He could as-
sert that the poor Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland
were, in morality, general good conduct, and
conscientious discharge of duty, behind no set
of men in either country. And if they were accused—
perhaps rightly accused—of being connected with the
political agitation in Ireland, he would, in justification of
the patriotic principles for which that body had ever
been distinguished, ask to whom the fault was to be
ascribed? It was well known that the Catholic priest-
hood were dependent upon their congregations—that
they were inwrought with them in sympathy and
interest ; and if they saw a sinecure rector in the
posssession of those revenues which had been wrested
from them by the violence of conquest, was
it to be wondered at that they partook in that agita-
tion through which those revenues were to be recovered?
He did not go back to those subjects, in order to recall
the past ; but in order to assign good reasons why the
Roman Catholic priests had very little cause to be at-
tached to their institution. The only difficulty which
he felt on this subject, was his great objection to vote
money out of the public taxes for any sectarian purpose.
But he believed that this was a great case of exception.
—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the funds applicable to
ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland were those from which
the wants of the Roman Catholic people ought to be
supplied.—(Hear, hear.) There were large funds, and
of all the complaints which he had ever heard in that
House, the most senseless complaint was, that the Pro-
testant Church of Ireland was not amply provided for.
He heard complaints of the want of funds for churches
and schools for the Protestants of Ireland, but were not
the funds which they possessed amply sufficient for those
purposes? Why, the collection of tithes in Ireland was
so odious that the clergy were obliged to give up 25 per
cent. of their incomes. Whenever the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite wished, or was compelled to go forward
in the course he had begun, he must look to those
funds (Hear, hear.) The State owed a deep debt to
the poor Roman Catholic people of Ireland, and
he had heard with great pleasure the idea of
restitution thrown out during the present debate.
Looking to the necessities of the people of Ireland, to
their poverty, to their actual inability to supply funds
for the religious education of their priesthood, he thought
it would be an act of unmitigated injustice if the House
were to reject the parsimonious grant now asked from
the public purse. In the north of Ireland there was,
he admitted, a majority of Protestants, but look at the
anomalous position of the Catholics there. On the one
side, he saw the Church of England and the landed pro-
prietors ; on the other, the poor Catholic cottiers, whilst
the Presbyterians held the middle position, being for
the most part the tenantry. They had endowed
the Church of England there with the plunder
of Roman Catholics,
.and they gave the Pres
byterians the rcgium denim, and yet some would re-
fuse the Catholics this poor pittance.—(Hear, hear.)
He asked the House whether after raising the hopes of
the people of Ireland they would now disappoint them?
He did not know what the intentions of the Government
might be— their measures generally came unawares upon
the House; but when he looked at the Bequest Bill of
last year, then at Lord Devon's commission, and then at
this Bill, he could not help thinking they were embarked
in a new course.—(Hear, hear.) A course which he en-
tirely approved of, and, he had much greater objec-
tions to voting away this money, he should be
very reluctant, under the present circumstances,
to give any opposition to it. The former
policy of this House towards Ireland was
now about to be abandoned, and a more conciliatory and
healing course adopted. The people of Ireland had wit-
nessed the disposition of the Legislature. But what
would the consequence be if they were to retrace their
steps, reject the present measure, and resume their
former unfortunate course of policy towards Ireland ?
Why the people of that country would be thrown into
the 'Lost abject despair, and civil war would follow the
return of this system. He had stated before, that the
treatment of 111ahomet over the nations he had conquered
was merciful compared to the treatment of Ireland
by England. Mahomet only persecuted one generation,
whilst England had persecuted several.----(Hear, hear.)
He thought the policy pursued by the Government to-
wards Ireland was at present good. Much had been
said about their motives, and certainly the propositions
now laid before the House were very different from those
which had hitherto emanated from a Tory Government.
It was impossible any longer to continue Tory princi-
ples, and he was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site knew perfectly well the keen opposition of those
benches if he continued or maintained those principles.
The principle of the old Parliament was to grant money
profusely to everybody. They for instance granted
700,0001. to the Protestant Church in Ireland for many
years, for the purpose of building Protestant Churches.
'They granted one million of money to indemnify the
same Church, for its loss of tithes. How then could Par-
liament refuse thiS paltry grant under present circum-
stances ? There had been a great amount of feeling
expressed on this subject out of doors. Some
of them according with the sentiments expressed
by the Honourable Member for Dublin, but the
largest portion of them depended solely upon one
point—namely, the grant of money out of the public
taxes for sectarian purposes. He concurred with that
principle, and as a rule he would grant no money out
of the public taxes for the purpose of any religion,
either in this country or in Ireland, But it seemed to
him, that an exception was established in the case of the
poor Catholics. It appeared to him that after the enor-
mous grants made to the Protestants, that House could
hardly refuse the small pittance now proposed to be
made to them.—(Hear.) If they refused the grant, it
would not only be pregnant with danger_ to the
country, but it would be an act of
whichgr
great
injustice to Ireland, and widen the gap
existed between the two countries. He therefore coun-
selled the Right Hon. Baronet to go on as he had com-
menced. He, however, did not wish to forca
which
him or the
Government to prematurely introadmucoen
measures
amongst the Protes-
-1
might possibly create excitement g
tent people of Ireland, but he was sure the Government,
by preparing the public mind through calm reasoning,
would at last succeed in reconciling the Protestant peo-
ple England to measures calculated to do justice
of
the Catholic Church. He had to thank the
to
olouse fur giving him an opportunity of ex-
pressing
his opinion on the subject, and he could as-
sure them that he never sat down with a greater convic-
tion that he was doing right by the country and by his
constituents in giving his cordial support to the motion
before the House.
Mr. GORING rose in Opposition to this measure,
and said, in answer to the accusations made by Hon.
Members against those Gentlemta on his side of the
House who opposed the measure, he would only take

the liberty of appealing to the Roman Catholic Gentle-
men on the opposite side whether, if rut in their position,
they could conscientiously bestow money for a college
exclusively intended for the promulgation of dcetrines
opposed to their own ? He would protest against the
truth of the saying that encouragement and toleration
were the same.—(hear, hear.) He n ould oppose
this Bill, because he thought that it would be a se-
rious insult to the Protestant Church of this country.
—(Hear.) It was said that this measure was intro-
duced to conciliate the people of Ireland. He d 'lied
that such a Bill would produce such a result. lie was
certain that it would be regarded with alarm by the
agricultural interest of this country---(Laughter, and
" hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp)—and it would
be a deep insult to the Protestants of Ireland.
Lord ASHLEY said that the position of those who
voted for this Bill was far less difficult than that of
those who opposed it. The former had not only to
speak of what may be considered an evil, but had to
speak to those Gentlemen here present who were deeply
interested. The Litter had to urge what may be con-
sidered speculation, against that w }deli the others main.
teined to be accurate. 'I hey had to speak to thie wishes
and clesir, s of many gentlemen there, differing from them.
but for many of a horn they entertained the greatest re-
sreet, and with n horn they lived on terms of close inti-
macy ; it was for these reasons that he felt a great re-
pugnance in opposing a the asure which did nit accord
with his conscientious belief. The measure, boa ever,
had been propounded by her Majesty's Government, and
they must address themselves to the discussion of it with
as much forbearance as they could. He was at all times
unwilling to press himself upon the attention of the
House, and if he could have found it possible to abstain
altogether from addressing the House on a subject
of such painful anxiety he would have withheld his
observations. The question was one which ought to re-
ceive the most minute and full investigation.—(Heat.)
In importance, it exceeded any measure that had ever
been introduced into the House in his remembrance.—.
(Hear, hear) For good or for evil to Ireland, a measure
of more vast importance had never been introduced.—
(Hear, hear.) It exceeded in importance the Re man
Catholic Relief Bill. When they removed civil dis-
abilities from the Roman Catholics they removed re-
strictions, and gave those who had suffered from those
restrictions full scope for free action. But in the pre-
sent case they not only removed restrictions but they
joined in the free action which that removal gave.—
(Hear, hear.) They gave all the support which they
could confer to the activity of that free action which
they had given by the measure of 1829. If the measure
worked well, it would work the regeneration of Ireland.
—(Opposition cheers.) It would conciliate the affections
of the Irish people. He admitted that such would be the
case if the measure worked well.—(Hear, hear.) But,
on the other hand, if it worked ill, he verily believed
that it would lead to the destruction of the Protestant
Establishment.--(Cheers from the Ministerial side of
the House.) And he felt that the perils of the measure
were ten times more hazardous than those of any mea-
sure that had ever been submitted to the consideration
of Parliament. In discussing this question they could
not but consider the consequences—the natural, not the
forced consequences—which might flow from the enact-
ment of this Bill. He would not enter into the consi-
deration of the theological question—he would not
enter into the examination of the question, how far it
was admissible to vote money for the fostering of a re-
ligion, from which those who voted that money
might dissent. That was not necessary for the
line of argument which he intended to adopt.
But there was an objection that had been taken against this
measure, both by the people at large and by all who opposed
the grant in that House—that it would be an endowment of
the Roman Catholic Church by Act of Parliament. This ob-
jection was common to all the memorialists and all the peti-
tioners who had appeared in that House. Whether they were
members of Dissenting connexions, whether they were at-
tached to the moderate party in the Church of England, or
whether they belonged to those high theologians who had of
late obtained so much notice in the country, they agreed in
this one respect, that they all objected to the grant. Now, it
was very true that the original constitution of the College of
Maynooth was based upon an Act of Parliament; but an Act
of Parliament of that day was very different from an
Act of Parliament in this. The Act of Parliament
by which Maynooth was founded was a repeal of those
penal Acts by which the statute-book was disfigured. With-
out the repeal, he believed it would have been impossible to
have founded that College at all, and the Act which authorised
the establishment of the College was only one in aid, and not
one for an original endowment by the State. Now, the present
Act was of a very different complexion. It gave this endow-
ment to trustees in perpetual succession. It was an endow-
ment in perpetuity by the Imperial Parliament, with the sum
of 25,000/. The people of this country could net understand
on what principle the Government could either rely on the pre-
vious Acts of Parliament, or justify the application of a sum of
this amount to a :Roman Catholic College, or why, at the pre-
sent time, when there was no particular call for assistance, the
whole of the expenses of the College should be provided by the
State. The previous grants had been small sums, given
in aid of contributions made for the education of the
Roman Catholic students in this College. But now the Bill
constituted the present grant a perpetual endowment. It placed
that College on the same footing, but only in a more favour.
able way, with the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, arid
Dublin, and he believed that the people of this country would
rather than this endowment should be carried into effect that
the previous annual grant should have been increased threefold.
They said that this was a perpetual recognition of the Roman
Catholic Church as one of the standing institutions of this em-
pire.—( Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that this recognition
by the State of the Church of Ireland, as one of the institutions
of the country, had sunk deeper into the hearts of the people of
this country than if they had increased the former grant. Why
this measure amounted to this. It declared, on the part of the
State, that as far as they could, the Roman Catholic religion
would never cease to be the religion of Ireland, because, should
there be at any time a disinclination on the part of the people
to spend money in support of that Church, the State
would step in fir the purpose of keeping up the
College—by keeping up the supply which, if unas-
sisted by them, the people would also abandon. Now,
this was certainly going beyond toleration.—(le Hear, hear,"
and cheers.) It was going to an extent such as he was cer-
tain no conscientious Catholic would himself go to. He did
not see how it was possible, after the House had affirmed this
measure, to refuse its assent at a future period to an endow
merit of the Catholic Church, and the words which had
dropped in the course of this debate from the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Dungarvon would seem to justify the
impression that ulterior concessions would be looked for.
There was a large party in that House who were of opinion
that this Bill was but the herald of other measures still more
important. He would speak from his own conviction, that if
he had made up his mind to vote for this grant, he should feel
himself bound to vote for the endowment when that question
came before the House. If the object of the Government was,
as stated, to elevate the character of the Irish
priesthood, and to improve the condition of the
people. If they, by those collegiate advantages, raised the
priests to a higher level, then he (Lord Ashley) contended
they ought to keep them there. They ought not to say to the men
who had been elevated in the scale of reason by this country,
" Now, go imitate your predecessors, by travelling from house
to house to earn a precarious livelihood." Why, would not
that tend more to the degradation of the Irish priesthood, after
the advantages they had received, than if they had left them
in their former position. If they did not carry out their policy
to this extent, he did not see how they could improve the
priesthood. To make them independent in principle, they
should make them independent of the people; and how could
they be independent of the people if the Government did not
step in to their assistance by an endowment? Were they not
told by an Hon. Gentleman that the sympathies of the Irish
priest must be with the flock on whom he was dependent ? If
they wished to make the priests draw their socks and not be
led by them—if they wished to make them independent of their
flocks—for it had been admitted that that was necessary—they
must endow the Irish priesthood, and recognise the Irish Church.
Where would they end if they once admitted this princi-
ple? They would have two co-existing Established Churches.
They would have the Roman Catholic Church established by
statute, and they would have the Established Church of Eng-
land. What would be the result? They would have a popu-
lation of 7,000,000 receiving for their establishment 500,e001.,
and a population of one million receiving double that amount.
—(Loud Opposition cheers.) The very instant they brought
themselves to regard Roman Catholic principles as not dan-
gerous or subversive to the interests of the State, that very
instant a re-construction appeared to be inevitable. But even
before that, what would they require to do? They would
have to take from the Church as now established
the jurisdiction which they gave to the other, and thus render
altogether nugatory the means which they had considered as
best ealculatod to advance the interests of civilisation and of
good government. They would have two Establishments dis-
proportioned in numbers, and animated by an unquenchable
spirit of rivalry. He wished to observe that in objecting to
his measure he was not acting from any illiberal principles. He
acted as a friend of Ireland had done before in that House—
he meant Lord Monteagle, then Mr. Spring Rice, who ob-
jected to the removal of the grant from the annual estimates,
beeause he thought that Parliament should have the supervision
of the grant year after year. As he (Lord Ashley) had said
before, so he would say again, that there had been no part of
the question which had excited more displeasure than the idea
of making this a perpetual endowment. He did hope that in
opposing such a Bill he should riot be considered actuated by
any feeling of hostility towards the people of Ireland. He
thought that the people of Ireland deserved not sympathy alone
at their hands, but reparation also.—( Hear, hear.) He never
could read the records of that unfortunate country without a
feeling of shame for the injuries she had suffered.—( Hear.)
If he thought that this concession would really content the
people of Ireland, he should hesitate before he opposed it. But
he never yet saw any good come of what were generally consi-
dered
concessions. There fell, the other evening, from a Right
Hon. Gentleman, one of the more important of the Irish Mem-
t
bers in that House, he meant the Member
hfloeroDpuanidgaartvtohne,
some remarkable words, to which he (Lord As
He warned the Right flon. Barone
time marked attention.
upon an equality with the an
Protestantsd
wanted to be placed oflrel
told him that if the
at the head of the Government that the Catholics
of that country, and he .
present system of exclusion from Trinity College were conti-
nued, that ifthis
measure d there was at least another that must be
measure were came
an-
swered the desired end. So that it appeared even
also carried before the Catholics of Ireland could be in any
degree satisfied. Had these expressions come from any ordi-
nary person he (Lord Ashley) should not have paid the same
attention to them, but coming from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Dungarvon he was bound to respect
them. He thought the Right Mon. Gentleman was perfectly
justified in these expressions, for when the Catholic Relief Bill
was passed it was well understood on all sides that it was but
the forerunner of still greater concessions. If the promoters
of that measure had said that concession had not reached its
limit, then he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was per.
fectly justified in stating what his demands were. Still more
would he make that concession, if he thought it was conferring
a lasting benefit upon Ireland, but they should recollect that
disappointment in a matter of this kind brought increased
hs miseryvot
eand p dismayon ththat
question, upon the people.eHe was called on to give
and he could not assent to a mea-
sure that, so far from conferring
feelings
ring peace, would, he was con-
vinced, engender most ho
eot to in the people of bath
countries. Neither could he con
a measure that would,
advance in any degree, suppress or retard the of that Protes-
tant faith, which he believed had been a main instrument in
bringing about the present state of civilisation and religious
freedom.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was aware
that he was about to take a course which he felt was
at variance with the opinions expressed by many of his
friends in and out of that House. It. had been said by a Noble
Lord that they were about to make an enormous grant for
the endowment of the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland ;
but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not think that
17,0001. could be considered by any means an enormous in.
crease, when the purposes for which it was required were taken
into consideration. He should rather be inclined to say, that
the satisfaction with which this measure had been received, the

-
tt y

satisfaction which had already beenssewpwe' teieby those whir
were best able to judge of its importaitnief he meant the in-
struction of the people, proved that the 'best results might be
anticipated from the improved feelings which the sister coun-
try would bear towards England. The measure was the more
satisfactory, that while they granted this boon to the Roman
Catholics, they did not in any degree injure the Protestant El.
already effected much good with the Catholics tablishment,—( Hear, hear.) The proposed
omf elarseulained bad
already effected much good with the CatholiCs of Ireland, for
ctifenfrysrlyoe, ~n
kiein terms
the m tbis
boon, of thfeolribearta, l
hearts, he meant the education
that House did not hesitate frequently to bestow on objects for
object
of this country, which
priests, the
a dearest
sum t o
which ectheir
their own gratification merely. They ofT litehy:i had the strongest assu-
rancesalbe that the forebodings of certain Honourable
!Members, with regard to the evils resulting from
this grant, would be doomed to disappointment.—( Hear. )
He believed that this grant would produce the effects which
d itsiffere
supporterswithhis R
anticipated.oinan
CatholicHe v
points of faith, he was convinced they were moved by feelings
which animated every Christian man, and were grateful
fellow-countrymen so
because
tthough
e g
uhp o tae
for the kindness of England. They were grateful, above
all, f. r those boons which were given in a disin-
terested spirit, because they were calculated to contribute
ma'erially to the comforts and education of those parties in
whom they took the deepest interest. Thinking these were
the effects likely to follow the measure, be was not to be de.
tensed from prosecuting it by any casual expression which
might have fallen in the course of the debate from Hon. Mem-
bers, however distinguished they might be for learning and
ability, and still less by any speech which had been a ade in
that House at any antecedent period. :He entertained the
highest respect for the Hon. Member for Dungarvon. Hie
talent and ability for discussing subjects of this nature were
uniformly great, but nevertheless he was constrained to
differ from one part of a speech made by that
Honourable Gentleman upon this Bill. But perhaps he
ought not to fix upon a man whose poetic imagery
was at once an excuse for the indiscretion he fell inter, when he
stated that the Bill would Lot give satisfaction unless it lid to
some ulterior measure ; nor did he concur with Lord Mont-
eagle, who in an accidental moment said the grant ought to be
made annually, and ought to be under the supervision of Par-
liament. That expression was used some fourteen or fifteen
years ago. It was an expression. accidentally used,
and not meant for the guidance of Parliament at
the time even when it was delivered. Surely,
then, it ought not to controul Parliament is dis-
cussing, fourteen years afterwards, a measure of such im.
portance as the one they were discussing. In the course of the
debate attempts had been made to enter upon poin s extremely
important in themselves, but which had little to do with the
subject of discussion, and therefore they did not necessarily
enter into the consideration of this question. He did not think
it necessary now to discuss whether it be proper that the State
should extend favour to all religions. He did not deem it
necessary to ascertain whether they were bound now to take into
consideration the general endowment of every sect that might
exist in the country, because that was a question which had no
reference to the one immediately under discussion. But at all
events, if that question was connected with the grant to May-
nooth, the time to have considered it was when the grant was
decided upon in the year 1795. All they had to decide now
was, whether, the principle having been adopted, they should
make such an augmentation to the grant as to make it effective
for the objects which induced Parliament originally to estab-
lish it. Allusion had freely been made to the petitions which
had been presented on this subject. He admitted that they
had been extremely numerous, but the generality of them
differed very much from the speeches which had been made
against the grant. The petitioners pursued a very different
course to the line of argument used by Hon. Gentlemen who
resisted the grant. The petitions uniformly proceeded upon
the principle that the grant was established for maintaining a
Roman Catholic establishment, and they called upon the House
not to vote a reasonable grant, but to do away with it altogether.
Now, with the exception of two Hon. Gentlemen, he meant
the Hon. Members for the University of Oxford and Dublin,
no Hon. Member who had spoke in the course of the debate
argued against the augmentation of it, but they did not object
to the smaller amount. But the petitioners looked upon the
grant as preposterous ; and let Hon. Gentlemen, therefore, not
think that if they succeeded in rejecting the Bill, it would stop
there—no, they would have to proceed a step further. They
must announce to the Roman Catholic body of Ireland that
the time had now come when, instead of their res.
sonably considering their wants and demands, Parliament
must withdraw from them the grant which they had
enjoyed for a period of fifty years. It had been said that Par-
liament was new for the first time going to establish a Roman
Catholic endowment ; but for his part he differed from those
Hon. Members who held this opinion. What were the words
of the preamble to the Act which first made this grant
Why, they were these :—" Whereas, by the law now in
force in this kingdom, it is not lawful to endow any Roman
Cathelic seminary or college." Then came the enactment
part, which said, " It shall be henceforth lawful to establish,
endow, and maintain any such college," and the same words
were used in a subsequent clause, which he did not think it was
necessary to read. Yes, it was the distinct intention of Par.•
liament to give the grant for that particular purpose, and the
same grant had been repeated for the same purpose every year
since down to the present period. But supposing there was
no intention to endow the institution at that time, it was in.
tended to do so at some future period, and the Bill then before
the House provided for the endowment of the institution. His
Honourable Friend in the next place objected to the
grant because lie said the Bill made it a permanent
instead of an annual provision, and thus they laid down the
principle that the Roman Catholic religion should never cease
in Ireland. Now be very much doubted whether by any le-
gislative enactment they could cause either the cessation or the
advancement of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland; and
least of all did he think that its permanence could be prevented
by provid,ng for the wants of the clergy in an indecent and
unbecoming manner. A well educated person, in his
opinion, was more likely to become a convert to Protestantism
than one who had received indifferent instruction. He could
not, therefore, agree with the principle which wished to keep
the Roman Catholics in ignorance to induce them to adopt
the purer faith—if he might he allowed the term—which he
himself professed. No, he did not think that course would
answer:their end, They would have a far:bette r chance of
reaching the hearts of he Roman Catholic people, and rendering
the purer doctrines of the Protestant Church more acceptable
to them, by making every cor.cession, and giving their clergy
a good education. It had been stated in the course of the debate
that if they gave a better education to the Roman Catholics,
it would endanger the Protestant religion, but he confessed he
did not entertain any such fears, nor did he think either rea-
son or experience justified the opinion. He would ask his
Noble Friend, who alluded to this subject, how it was that the
Reformation itself was fist effected? Was it when ignorance
prevailed, or when literature, science, and art began to ad-
vance in Europe? His Noble Friend knew full well that it was
not until science and literature had begun to illuminate the
eehmsa,dsetiliabetst
it,h,
teeod leaathdpeerresviweozfrsidtihiteeraTßrhyeeformat ion pre.
convents, and the monks began extensively to cultivate the arts
ycharwacetreer, andtbe
:the smaen,nsdnt e dswe ihe
miHnts
that
eedsatibdtehtehwelnhigehtloet
pthene until
bttlbheesemsyi
n,agesqaunoidrf eptdbrteohnteessettbaanetyttiasiimnl
um.
en who had distinguished :themselves in classical attainments.
worldbj rrowk ea ns ni
not
keep the Roman Catholics in ignorance was only to stop the
progress of truth in Ireland, while by increasing
their means of religious instruction and education,
they would throw a blessing upon the land, and
advance the civilization of its inhabitants.—( Hear. )
The Catholic priests had repeatedly declared that they would
not accept an endowment from the State, and his Noble
Friend therefore argued, that if they were to break faith with
the people by whose contributions they were supported, they
would be compelled to accept of a State allowance. But it
was not part of the present measure to endow the Catholic
clergy, or to make them independent of the voluntary contri-
butions of their flocks. It was altogether erroneous to say
that the increase of the grant would increase the nurnier of
the Roman Catholic priests in Ireland. The effect of the
grant would be merely to improve the education of those who
were destined to be priests—to supply the students with books
and a decent maintenance, which they did not possess at pre-
sent, and thereby to resider them better men, and, he hoped,
better Christians. He did not believe that many in the House
could be found to concur in the proposition that the grant
should be altogether done away with. The grant was confirmed
at the time of the Union. For 14 years it was continued with-
out opposition, and every opposition which had since been raised
had been defeated by a large majority. On no occasion had
fifty Members of the House of Commons been found to vote
against the grant. If they could not do away with the grant,
what objection could there be to a measure which proposed no
more than to make it effective for its purpose? Some objection
had been made to the time when the increase was proposed.
He thought that there could be no time more appropriate than
the present, when the energy of the Government had eon-
trolled sedition, improved the finances of the country, and left
to the Legislature the means of granting without danger a boon
which the people of Ireland so much desired. There were
other topics on which he would have desired to address the
House, if the debate had not been already so much prolonged.
He was sorry that it fell to his lot to address the House when
so many Members were absent. He was sorry to be obliged
to advert to the speech of any Member; but he was compelled,
before he sat down, to allude to the speech of a Right Hon.
Gentleman, who said that although the measure was a good
one, it ought nut to have been brought forward
by the present Government. But the late Ministers
had been ten years in power and they had never ventured to
propose any grant to the Catholic Church in Ireland. They
had no right therefore to stigmatise those who under greater
difficulties had the courage to propose it. The Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite had accused the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Government of inconsistency. This chuge
against an individual, if well founded, was not a valid charge
against an entire Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Macauley) said that his Right Hon. Friend (Sir IL
Peel) hid made use of passions with which he did not sympa-
thise, and prejudices which he held in contempt. Let the
House compare this allegation with the speech made by the
Hon. Member for Edinburgh in 1t340, when he expressed
approbation of Sir Robert Peel's conduct in abstaining
any indulgence in the passions and prejudices of the majority of
those who supported him. He thought there could be
really no objection to the principle of the present measure d
raised he hoped that the expectations which had been e
w, and
would
not be disappointed, because the measure w
men who were liable to the charcre of • ' as proposed by
Inconsistency.—(Heu.)
lie concluded by imploring the House to pass the Bill, as slue
calculated to promote good order and religion in the sister
Sir WILLIAM CLAY said that h
• he did not think that there
could be another Member in the House who could have
stronger personal reasons for opposing the measure now before
them than himself. There existed in the large constituency
which he had the honou
of disapprobation of this tmoeraecpuresent
and represent widely-spread feeling
whom lie was most deeply indebtreeci paanrticm.ipaanfedoifnhtihsaftrifeenedlis
ngt.
and he was conscious that in his supporting that measure be
was risking the loss of their friendship. He could not but think,
and he perfectly agreed with many Honourable Gentlemen who
addressed the House, that this measure had been greatly miss
apprehended and misrepresented, and he believed that no in-
considerable portion of the excitement out of doors may have
arisen out of that misapprehension. In the harangues at
priblic meetings on the petitions presented to the House the
measure was talked of either as an endowment to the Ronan
Catholic Church, or as a necessary precursor to such an endow-
ment. He denied the accuracy of that description. He denied
that it was in any other or greater degree an endowment to the
R( man Catholic Church than the existing grant to Maynooth.
It should be viewed as a grant for educational purposes ; it was
merely a continuation of that grant made by a Protestant Iriah
Parliament, and afterwards by an united Parliament, and eon•
tinued for fifty years, and now they were merely about to in-
crease that grant, and to substitute a good system of education
for a bad one. That was the only difference, and he distinctly
denied that either one or the other could ever be described as
an endowment to the Roman Catholic Church. If it were
described as an ecclesiastical endowment, he did not see Way
the same objection would not apply to those grants which they
made year after year for educational purposes in this eonntrys
which had been divided between the National, and British and
Foreign School Societies. It could not be denied that many
individuals educated by those grants might become non-con.
formists. It was true that in Maynoeth only the students who
intended for clergymen in the Roman Catholic Church
were. educated, hut he did net see any difference, under the
circumstances, between a sum of money given for the education
of those belonging to several denominations, and several SUMS
given to each. It had been found, by experience, that there
ought to be separate schools for the education of those who
were intended for the clergymen of a Church which enjoieed