The Sun.
London, England, 1819-06-10 00:00:00

1•H E BUDGET.

The House litt,,in' resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of Ways and Means on
.the motion of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer,
J. Yous.e rose, and begged his Right Hon.
Friend, who had felt, tie was. sure, for his former
inttrt option, would give way to him for a mo 7
went.
„He.only wished to, ask a Gallant Admiral
whet her it was intended to do any thing for
Robert Sep pings, third Surveyor of the
I%;,vy,
Mr. 13t:OcbEN (the Chairman) informed the
Gallant Admiral, that such a yieStion could only
be put in a Committee of Supply. The House
was at present in one of Ways and 'Means.
Sir 3. YORKE sat down,- lainenting that he.
should have been mistaken.
Ihe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then.
ruse.—A4 the House had already applied itself to
the conside.ration of the resolutions on which be'

iptentled to ground the financial operations of the

year', it only remained for hirer to enter into the
details of the plans and arrangements proposed to
carry those operations into effect. The House
had also come to a resolution of rendering the
Sinking Fund applicable to the public service, snd
nriltiug a provision which would prevent in future
years the n cessity of continuing 'the practice of.
loans. He should now explain how those ar-
r4ng, mews were to be effected in the present
year. In doing this, he should follow the usual
uourse.. He should recapitulate on one side the
Supplies granted for the current year, and on the
other the Ways and A'lestris by which they were to
he suet. Ile should then take a view of the New
Taxes, rind
.point our the general mew:ores to
founded on the Resolutions which the Househad
already adopted, in order to -show how we aright
lorsk io'futore to a settlement which would render
the imposition of new taxes. and the raising of'
loans (with the exception of a small loan fur the.
next year) unnecessary. So pinch information
was contained in the Report of the Finance Com-
mittee, and'so much more had been elicited by in-
goiries in the How--e, that in recapitnlat.ng the
6npilirs, he should have liztle more to do than
to refer to the Report of that Commiitee, and
point out the corresponding Ways and Means.—
•The Army Extraordinaries. still remained to be
granted ; but, adding them to the other branch-es
which had already been obtained, the total for
Military Service of the year would be, accord-
in.; to the recommendation of the Finance Com-
mit,ee, 8,000,0001. Tire whole- Supplies for the
Navy were granted ; they amounted to 6,136,0001.:
Ti,ose for Ire Ordnance were in the same sitna-.
11011, end consistedof 1,191,0001. Under the
head of Miscellaneous Services, many items re-
mained for the (some considerati'o'n of the House,
particularly the usual Grants for the poorer classes
of tine Clergy, both in England Ireland ; but add-.
ing their amount to what had been voted, tl:e
.whole would come to 1;950,0001, As some Sup-
flies still remained to. be granted, it was not his:
intention at present to complete tine Ways and
iNicans, But the application of twelve willious

of the Sinking Fund 'Lore than cover what
was stiil to be :zranted. The total amt,ul,.t of the
S•tppiies-wh:ieh be hpd 11,1: 1 .1:477,0001-
To this wete to he cackled 1.$70.0001:for interest
on Exchequer I:ills, and 43U,0001, for Sinking
Etiod on the !!'aii:.e, fortitenig :a irana•toial of
20,477,0001. To meet the;e Supplies, the !louse
had s,metiontd the (.:ant of--
- Za,noo.ooo
Thv Tr.lip(tary r,xci.r I)titici - 3,500,iM0)
- 2;0,00),)
Proatice of-tale Sale of Naval. Sturei

jritai - 47,074,000
It was, therefore, clear Ji r, view of
1
meet ingthe supplies v4i, a loan of 13,500,00 W.
would have been sufficient tot' the service of the
pctseut year, But the measure lately adopted to
return to Cash l'avniews had rendered it neces-
sary that 10,000,0001. should.be repaid, 01 which
five millions would go to the Bank, and the rest
to diminish the Unfunded Debt. To provide for
all those expellees, two loans were to be raised.
One for twelve milli.ons had already been con-
tracted„for by a public competiiion.. The other,
to the an3o.nlit of also twelve millions, he pro-
posed, should be taken out of the Sinking Fund.
This wouldlte, however, for the future considara-
tion of Parliament, and .he should now only state,
that in order to affect the Funds as little as possi-
ble, he intended to divide the twelve millions into
twelve monthly payments, during which .t he stock
would remain. in the name of the Commissioners.
The sum intended to be taken would be one mil-
lion a inonth ; but iqt die January and July quar-
ters only 900,0001. should be called for monthly ;
and in the April and October quarters 1,100,0001.
This appropriation of part of the produce of the
Sinking Fund would still leave about 310,00011 a
month applicable to the reduction of the National
Debt. The total amount of the Ways and Means
would therefore he 31,074.0001., and as the sup-
plies were only 20,477,0001. there would he sur-
plus of 10,597,0001. which would be applied to
the redaction of the tllifunded Debt in the follow-
ing manner:-5,000,0001. would be repaid to
the Bank, and 5,600.0001. to the individual holders
of Excheyier Bills, lie had stated that the first
Loan had alteady been contracted tor. The terms
were highly satisfactory, and he was ready to ad-
mit had been rendered so by tie competition
which had prevailed. The Loan was raised by a
subscription to the amount of 12 millions, for
every 1001. of which 801. in Consols were to he
given (the interest of which was not retrospec-
tive, but would Only commence from July next,
so that there would' be no concealed bonus in the
shape of interest), and 621. ISs. Bd. in the 3 per
cent. Reduced. tie trnsted that these terms prov-
ed in the most satisfactory manner a spirit of re-
viving confidence. in the resources of the country.
The other biddings for the Loan were as follow
Messrs. Reed, Irwin, and Co. 651. 108. ; rklessrs.
Iticardo and Co. 651. 2s. 6d. From this it would

be seen, that the list which had obtained the pre
ference outweighed very far those with _which it
had been placed in competition, in the advantages
which it offered to the country, as taking the
smallest portion
,of stock it created, the smallest
charge both for capital and interest to the coun-
try. The Loan raised that Morning', and the
Loan taken from the Sinking Fund, he-WOulff- re-
gard as a joint loan in speaking of the-stock cre-.
ated by the two operations. Considering tltem
as a joint loan, the capital stock created for the.
24,000,0001. raised, was 34,304,00 W. in the 3
per cent. Stock, taken partly in the Reduced, and
:partly in the Consols. The interest on it amount-
! ed to 1,029,1201.; the Sinking Fond to 402,5941.
It would here be observed, that he had thought
it right to carry strictly into effect the provision
made in the Act of 1813 for forming an additional
Sinking Food, whenever the amount of. the Loan
raised should exceed the Sinking Fund previously,
established. The ob,scrvance of this prOvi6ion
might have been dispensed with where a Loan'was
raised for the purpose of diminishing the [World-
-ed Debt. He'had however felt, that where a Loan
was raised in time, of peace, the Operation of the
Sinking Fund ought rather to be strengthened
than diminished, and bad complied accordingly
with the provisions of the Act of 1813. To the
sums be bad mentioned, the charge for manage-
•ment, 10,291/. was to be added. The total charge
of the Loan them stood as follows :--
Interest - • L. 1,029,120
Sinliing Fund. - 402,591.
Managetueat - , 10,291

L. 1,442,005
With respect to the charge for management, he
wished to state that he considered the Batik to
have no claim for management on that part of the
loan which was taken trout the Sinking Fund,
but only on the 12,000,0001. 'which ,had been
made in the market. He had shown that the to-.
tal-charge of the Loan was 1,442,0051. The rate
of interest to the subscribers was 41. ss. •9d.' per
cent. The calculation being, that'the average;
price of the 3 per Cent. Stock would he 69 and
a half. The total., rate of interest paid by the.
Public on the Loan, the Sinking Fond included,
-was 61. Os. 2d. per cent. He thOught he had a
right to congratulate the House Ot` a Loan to such
an amount having been obtained on such terms.—
He trusted they would not prove unfavonrahle to:
those with ‘ehoni they had been negociated,
"hough they could hardly be justified as 'prudent
on the part of those who had agreed to them with
reference to the present price of stock ; but there
was every reason to hope that they Would prove
beneficial to them. Before proceeding to the
other parts of the subject, it might be wtll that he
should here advert to the measures which he con-
-ceived would be necessary in the next year. As
far as-it was possible for him to judge at present,
he should think that the utmost it would be ne-
cessary to raise next year would not exceed
11,000,0001. for the different branches of the
public service. This sum might he wanted in ad-
dition to that of 5,000,0001. to complete the pay-
ments to be made to the Bank. if then' 12,000,0001.
thoold he taken from the Sinking, Fund, as had
been done in the present year, bet 4,000,0001.
would remain to be borrowed in the rinirket. So
moderate a Loan would produce little or no effect
on the fonds (if it should be necessary to raise a
loan at ; and that, at all events, he thought
he might be allowed to hope, from the present
aspect of Europe, would be the last time he should
have occasion to resort to the money market in
tittle of peace. The next branch of the subject

t.o which he would call the attention of the House
Was _the consideration of the mode by which he
proposed to realize the pledge-given by ParliOnent
to raise 3,000,0001. by new taxes, and the made in
which he purposed•to apply that sum. But before
proceeding on this head, being On the .subject a--
the public debt, he wished to state,the amount of
the unfunded debt, and to stilor,... how_i,Cwonld
temain after the supplies of the present year
were wound up. The amount of the unfunded
debt was at present about 49,000,0001. 'The
amount of Exchequer Bills being 44.600,0001.—
The Irish Treasury Bills, payable in July next,
amounting to 4,400.0001. These he proposed to
replace by 20,000,0001. in Exchequer Bills,-which
had already been voted by Parliament, by a vote
of 16,000,0001. which he should move that even-
ing, and by art issue of Irish Treasury Bills to the
amount of 2 500,0001. The total amount of un-
funded debt thus created would be 38,500,0001.—
This, compared with its present amount of
49,000,0001. would give a diminution of
10,500,0001. Now, as he had already stated, it
was hi 4 intention to propose that the sum of
3,000,0001. should be raised by new taxes to
strengthen the Consolidated Fond, to enable it to
support the charge. of the loan raised in the last
and in.the present year, to which, so reinforced,
it would be abort equal. The amount of the
charge on the last loan was about

kl )600,000
That of the present Loan 1,44-2,000

•
The total being k 5,042,000
being an excess of 42,0001. above the sum pro-
posed to be raised. The suns to be raised it mighi
be proper to divide between the two loans ; but
as this was merely a matter of accounr, a little
might be given to one side or the other without
inconveniunce, though it would be well to allot
to them.as nearly as possible the same proportion.
He would now proceed to the particular propo-
sitions which he bad announced it to be his in-
tention to bring,forward. With respect to the
consolidation of the-Customs, it was impossible to
go into all the minute variations that were in-
tended—a schedule of these would shortly be pro-
duced. The only one of material imarirtauce was
that to which he had already called the attention
of the House—aii increase of duty on Foreign
Irt.fool. The others were all of -a very minute de-
scription, and the produce of the whole he took
at 500,0001. per annum. Out of such a variety
of articles as were comprehended under this head,
some might give more—some might produce less
—some more than he calculated upon ; but he had
no reason to expect that the result upon the whole
would be Materially different from that which he
had .previously anticipated. The whole of the
minute particulars would shortly be brought on -
derthe view of every'Member, by a separate sche-
dule;-which- be hoped would very soon be in their
hands. He had mentioned, on a former occasion,
that a considerable proportion of the sum propos-
ed•to be raised wear expected to arise from a trans-
fer of part of the business now carried on between
the • Boards of Custom and Excise. It was 'in-
tended to transfer to the Excise certain duties
which were before collected by the Customs.
These were the- duties on tobacco, coffee, and
cocoa nuts. On the last mentioned article a
higher rate of duty was at present paid than
coffee.- For many years- the duties on the two
articles had been the same. But when it became
an-ohlect to bring coffee into more general use,
a difference was made in its favour, but now it
was proposed that Coffee and the Cocoa Nut, or
the Chocolate Nut, sbould,with reference to taxa-
tion, be placed on the same footing. He then
proceeded to notice severally the articles vaiich
came tinder this head—Tobacco, Coffee, Tea, and
Pepper. On Tobacco the present duties varied very
materially. The Excise duty ou American Tobacco
tv~s 94d. per 16. On Spanish and Portuguese
Tobacco 2s. ; and on West India Tobacco Is. To
these he added the Customs duties, and the
augmentation now proposed on these would make
the total duty on Plantation Tobaccos 4s. On
Foreign Tobaccos 6s. 61d. ; and on Foreign Snuffs
6s. per lb. On Plantation Coffee he proposed to
increase the duty from 7d. to Is. On East India
Coffee . from l Id. to Is. Gd. ; and on Foreign
Coffee from 2s. 44d. to 2s. Gd. per lb. The duty
on Pepper lie would raise from Is. 10id. Co 2s. Gd.
perils:, The advance he, had to propose on Tea
be had before stated, went to raise the existing
duty from 96 to 100 per cent.. On Tobacco be
looked, for an increase of: revenue of 500,0001.;
on Tea of 130,0001.; on Coffee and-Cocoa
130,0001.; and on Pepper 30,0001. The. Motive
for transferring the duties he bad mentioned from
the Customs to the Excise was this, that it went
to effect a saving of nearly all the officers now
empinyed in that branch of the public service.—
This arrangement would also afford considerable
accommodation to merchants. Nothing•was more
complained of at present than the multiplied re-
gulatinns which -they were forced to observe, and
the necessity they were under of making applica-
tions. on the same business at various places and
at different periods of the day. But the principal
advantage of this arrangement was this, that it
would .prevent the adulteration of the articles
which it comprehended. Some of these were Sold in
very small quantities, and often ground, so that it
Vas not easy to determine whether. or not they
were,genuine. By the transfer of these from the
Customs to the Excise, a watch would be set
over them to prevent their adulteration. On this
account, as well as on others, the transfer was
obviously desirable. Two other subjects were
yet to• be. brought under the consideration of the
Com,mittee. The first of these was the increased
duty on'lair, which he stated in his general open-
ing he calculated would produce 1,400;0001., in-
cluding the sum which it would raise in Ireland,
to which he proposed all the flew dirties should
extend, with the exception of the tax on home
distilled spirits. The sum which lie had mention-
ed he calculated would be raised by a duty of
Is. 2d. per bushel on Malt, or 9s. 4(1, per quar-
ter. When -he first opened this subject to
the House, he had certainly entered into some
details, to show that the tax- which be had sug-
gested might be borne. Every inquiry he bad
since. been able to make, hid only served to
strengthen the impression which he bad -then on
his mind. For information on this subject lie
would Icier the House to the Committee on
Breweries, which sat in last Sessiou,, which would

be found to contain much valuable matter, which
had been furnished to it by a most respectable
Gentleman, then a Member of that House. With -
that Gentleman, he meant Mr. Barclay, he had
recently` had a communication-,„andbe wonanow
,state tattle House the view Ite,tnok
'lE.'Parclay had stated the rpre.- price of Malt 11*
the'laSt year to have been 4s. below the prices
which had been quoted. According to him,
thong!) 81s. 4:!. had been paid for a finer sort of
Malt, the general purchases had been made-ac
775. 4d. Hops had then sold for 241. or 251•
per cwt. Much of the Barley grown in the lase
year was unfit for malting, and consequently the
price at Malt was higher now than it was then•
The average price in the present - year 'was so.;
Bttt Hops had fallen to 101. per cwt. The result
then was as follows :
Malt was in 1815 per (platter. - - L. 3 17
In 1819 - - 4 10
Hops were now so reduced in price, that the ex.
pence of brewing a quarter of wait fur porter,
which was list yelr - 5 18
Was in the present year - 5• $ 4

Deducting the price of the present year, there re-
mained in favour of the brewer - L.O 10
4
This being the case, there being a balance in Ist'
your of the brewer of 10s. 4d. on the price Of
brewing a quarter of malt. Mr. Barclay was of
opinion that die duty proposed might be bores
without great inconvenience ; and he was further
of opinion, that, it the present season should tura
out as favourably, .as at present there was ever!
reason to- hope it would, the public might rest*
sonahlvtlook forward, as he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had stated on a former eveninP
to a ditninolion of its price.—(Hear, hear, hear!)
He hoped, whatever might be the difference be'
tween the calculations of various persons, that tho
House would find the general result the sAnifr
and he satisfied that his pOsition, that the pieseot
duty not only did not go to justify a rise in (11.0
price of pot ei, bet was compatible with a &Mi'
put inn of prce after a time, was fully borne our'
The only remaining article to which he had to
call
.the.attention of the Committee was the duff
on home distilled spirits: It was not his intention
that this measure should extend to Scotland Or
Ireland. The present duty ou wash for distAling,
spirits, which paid Is. 9 I. on the gallon, he" pro'
posed to add 3d. to, and charge its future with
duty of 2s. The sugar wash, which now paid
2s. Gd. per gallon, he would render liable to 'a
duty of 3s. 3d. The ditty on Spiiits he cello,"
lated would produce an increase to the Revenue
of five hundred thousand pounds. If the effect
of this tax would be to diminish the coo'
stunption of spirits, and increase the con'
sumption of the wholesome produce of 016
Brewery, no man would mote rejoice at the
effect of the measure than he should, and vi"itil
this feeling he had thought it right that 8-Lag
on spirits should accompany the new ditty .01
malt, to protect both the health and the' morals oi.
the people. Those concerned in the spirit tra(l6
had however urged, that this measure would o'6
the traders in foreign spirits an advantage-over
them if some ditty were nut imposed on spirits 11;"
ported. On this subject he bad. come as yet tryll°
decision, hut he might hereafter find it necessall
to come forward with some additional-measure to
protect their interests from the injury'it might
sustain, if undue advantages were conceded to 11113
foreign trader. Having gone through the, diile"
rent subjects he had wished to press upon die el;
tention of the Committee, be begged to say,
on any point he had not been distinctly under'
stood, he should be happy to afford any expiator'
Lion that might be required.

Mr: GRENFELL did not clearly understand what
the Right Hon. Gentleman had said on the sob"
ject of the 11,000,0001. that would be wanted ftig
the service of next year.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER SRO? 11
the present year the sum of 13,000.0001. had beo
required to balance the expenditure of the yell!'
with the income derived from our ordinary rei
sources. Next year, from the reduced charge
the Unftinded Debt, and from. other causes, 11
hoped the sum to be borrowed would not exces
11,000,0001. exclusive of the 5,000,0001. wilo.
to repay the Bank advances. It then, a's new°
12,000,0001. should be taken from the Siokil4„
Fund, 4,000,0001. only would remain to '
borrowed in the market, if even this could not 116,
avoided. That sum of 4,000;0001. would be 6b
that it woulff,he necessary so to raise to comp!el°
the supplies, as tar as Ministers could p,,5t6111,1
form a judgment, fur that, or for any futull
year of peace. They trusted it would not be 314"
cessary for them or for their successors to come t°
Parliament for another loan, or for new taxes."'"
Having fairly met the difficulties of the COO"
try, he trusted the beneficial effects of the stet)
they had resolved upon would soon be felt'
and that they would receive the applause of tlit'r
constituents, whatevery feelings of momentary ic**
.ritation might be provoked in the first instiolc
by the new hitt unavoidable burdens to Which the
people were _called upon to submit. He concliofr
ed by moving his first ReNolution, which was far
a grant of 12,000,0001. by way of annuity.
Mr. GEBNFELL had attended to the Budge!
statements of the Right Hon. Gentleman for se°
venal years, which, in every instance, bad bee°,
distinguished by their clearness, and the same cbsti
radter belonged to the statement which they Its
just heard. The subject, as the Right Honoor"
able Gentleman had remarked, was certainly con,
siderably narrowed by the debates which bad I'
ready taken place on the finance of the country
He bad intended to participate in the discussi(ris
of yesterday and the preceding day ; but bar`
ing given way to those who had a pri°t
claim to the attention of the House, he hoped thi,,
he might now be allowed to state what Were IT
sentiments on the propositions then under a 0081;
deration. He agreed with those who tholigha
the country ought to 'possess a real Sinking
91
of surplus revenue. It was a proud thing for
Europe to know that we were now in possess Wt.
of an undoubted income beyond our expenditur6
of no less than 2,000,0001. He agreed that th3C
surplus ought to be increased first by retrench'
ment, and then by Taxes, from 2 to 5,000,0001'
After that should be accomplished, this counol
would be placed in a situation that must•cor:i'
mand the respect of the whole world. The C°:7:
ration of a Sinking Fund, carried by compoun •
terest from 5 to 8 millions, would be most ir;;;''

I

if);

°

•
!ant, tint only on account of the debt it would
• liquidate, .but from the:moral effect it would pro-
d.uce,lt could not be other than highly beneficial
to the country ; and supposing a disposition to
exist On the part, of other Powers (which God
fr4bid, should be 'the fact) to injure England,
he should like ,to know if any country in the
world, seem g' us •with the Sinking Fund which
It was proposed we should have, would he
t'empted to venture on any aggression against
till& country, presuming on the state of its
fiances. He then noticed the conduct of the
kauk in refusing longer to continue that accom-
modation to the public which they had afforded
41nring the last five and twenty years, by feu:W.'
rating. the payment of the instalments required by
'he Oovernment for the Loan.. He was glad the
=1 ';k had acted as they had, for they would now,
-if he were not Much mistaken, see the ease with

vdtich the public could tto without them. This
'was one reason why he was glad of the course
they had taken ; and another reason was this,
that the Bank W S now seen in its proper co-
lours. He did not mean to say that among
-the Bank Directors there were not Gentitmett
eritided to the very highest respect. He knew,
on the authority of a Member of the Court
of Directors, that an Honourable Gentle-
Than in that House had opposed the course they
were now taking, and that the Court had been
divided on the question But whatever his' re-

spect for the Hot). Gentleman, or for other Metn-;
berg of the Court, might be, he must look at and,
sPeak of the acts of the Corporation according to
itis sense -hf duly. On the present occasion he
stiought there wig a littleness and a low7minded-

'items in their conduct which merited severe repre•
'tension. The Situation in which the Bank had
mood with respect to the Government for the last
twenty-five yeats,, had given the Directors such
:exalted notions, that 110 v an attempt was made
by Ministers to break their fetters. Such con-
linef was resented as an. offence against their high
end sovereign authority. He congratulated, the
Ils-mbers of the Government on their lia%iog
emancipated themselves from such tyranny, and
Alive his approbation to the plan of the Chancel-
lor of ,the Exchequer fur augmenting the Sinking
Fund.
Mr. MANNING, after the notice given within the
lass two days, thought the Hon. Gentleman, A• ho
ltßtl just sat down, might have ab4tained Ruin
,4etiog the observations they had just heard.—
coinpliniented one of the Directors in that
llethsc on his -conduct, but be (Mr. Manning)
_c:.old not accept a compliment on such terms, and
Fished lot to he commended at the ex pence of
those with, whom he -acted. The information
which the kiun. Mender had obtained, he conid
only have obtained through a breach of coo-
64nee on the part of the person by whom it
tvas communicated. It was necessary that he
thould ‘say, on the part of his colleagues, that
„Whatever the decisioo might be to which they
./lad come,
,it'iras foioided on a spirit or hos!i-
,lity to his illajes y's G,Vet !intent. He should
Lave expected .he coon net of the Bank in the
.Dtesent iost,lnce ‘eend:l hi%-e met with Ole appro-
tAtion of this Honourable Gen:leman who had so

4everely censured it, as it' was calculated to give
them that controul over the issues of their notes,
*hicii it was contended they ought to possess.
Whatever his (Mr. Mooning's) conduct might
l'aVe been iu the Court of Directors, he was
uotind to take his full share of resposibility for the
course Which had been determined upon. He was
/lure whatever might be thought of the decision
Miry had recently come to, the Bank would be
found anxious to give effect to the wishes of that
Alouse; and whatever they might be reproached
'*ith, they would not throw out of their consi-
,deration the welfare of the country. -
11Ir. Pa ace protested against the in!olerable,
!thealled- for, and unprovoked attack which had
'seen made on the Bank. He would not impute
to the Hon. Gentleman by whom it had been
Made -any feelings of pione-or of revenge, but he
Ihooglit the course he had pursued eras not justi-
'ltd by the civcomstances of the case..
Mr MELLISEI,saidi .11 be knew from whom the
' 111)11. Member •hitd-obtained his information re-
flPectiag the proceedings of the Directors of
.1," Batik, he. would to-morrow move that
4,„"0. 'person -should be turned out of the
-'w9tirt. He' vindicated' the conduct of the Core
Pwation, and far from being ashamed of
belonging to the body of Directors, he exult-
-1.1.d in the belief that the Country at large
Threw they• had done their duty-: The various
tualges brought. against the Bank lie briefly no-
teed, and shosied them to be so far at variance
destroy each other.
t i wtr•GRENFELLItoitI, the information he had ob-
tlled of the proceedings of the Court of .Direc-
,,,-ri"Ns given to him and to several other Cientle-
ten b
tilty a Member of the Court, in the public
without any imposition of secresy.
Mr PROTHeROI3 declared his belief that the
*l4llk-bitectirrs were incapable of acting from the
-t(mivei whicb• had been imputed to thent. He
inst coofident they would feel pleasure in promot•
tkg.s; ibe best interests of the country. He ap-
te"'"f the propositions which bad this night
ert !'ohmitted to the House. It had been said
ithit'klinisters were afraid to bring forward those
measures which the present situation of the counr-
Y Pet:piked; and-adverse as he was to all tempo-
zing expedients, he felt himself bound to stand
by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he
_value down with such plans as he bad submitted
!0 Parliament.
J. NEWPORT approved of the conduct of the
:7 ok on the present occasion. He did not think
the country in to condition to bear new taxes. The
.._t
117 duties were to extend to Ireland, with the
Nxteud exception of the tax on spirits, which was not to
to Scotland and Ireland. The malt duty,
Was not to extend to them. Now he
thought it was of the greatest importance to en-
tr": Page.; by 'every possible means, the consump-
o'T 'l4 porter in Ireland; and how the new duty
to4lt would Operate, unaccompaoied by a duty
tpirits, he lett it to the Chancellor of the Ex-
efttitier 10 consider,
alr• ELNNBT Said, those who accustomed them-
trlve
for
5: to look at the financial state Of the country
th4t
,i,nse years past, could hardly have expected
to e should have come out of our difficulties
,A
%II as we had. He had not expected to flail

the eountry, ‘sesged of :a clear suiplus;Terque:oi
2,000,0001. 1-le, hola;ever, showed that fails haci
'hee'n-brOlien With the stockholder and with the
4yablie; -the Sioking Fund' having been reduced
from 21,000,0001. to what it was, and 7,000,0001'.
of War Taxes having been imposed in time of
peace. He did not see what there was in the pre-
sent situation of the country that should lead us
to expect the revenue would not decline from
what it was at ptesent. What reason had we to
suppose the revenue would he the same in 1820 as
it was in 1519. What was there in our present situ-
ation to distinguish it materially front that in which
we found ourselves in 1816, when a defalcation took
place in the income of the country to the amount
of 5,000,0001. He objected to the imposition of
new taxes, and, far how supporting them, was
ready to %ote for the repeal of those which now
pressed most heavy on the people. Jo every part
of the country the greatest distress prevailed, and
if new taxes were imposed in the present condi-
tion of the people, it might be feared that they
would goad misery to madness, and it was
possible to answer for the consequences. He
thought those who voted for new taxes, if this
were tlie‘ last Session of the present Parliament,
would act differently from a dread of meeting their
constituents after giving their sapport to such pro-
positions.

Mr. NI ANSF/ELD begged to trouble the House
with a very tew observations, in consequence of
what had fallen from the Hon. Member who had
just sat down. He could assure the House that
he was no less unwilling than that Hon. Mem-
ber to impose burthens On the people ; but, itn-
pressed with the necessity of supporting the
financial credit of the Country, he should feel
bound to concur in the raising such au amount of
New Taxes as might effect this most important
purpose. Knowing, however, how truly the
Honourable Gentlemau had described the dis-
tress which very generally pervaded the lois er
classes of society, he called upon the House
matt fully and pattiotically to come forwatd
and take the load upon themselves. He was fully
convinced of the proprie y of what he had long
thought would he the most efficient tax to relieve
the country from its difficulties, without adding to
those already felt by the many 3 and he hoped the
House would be 'disposed to set a splendid rxittnple
of disinterestedness and feeling for the distress of
the lower orders, by calling upon Government
to lay a property tax to the amount of the duties
now propoted. He distiocly ureaot a property
-anti not an income tax—:l tax which shoot(' fall
upon the landlord and fundholder, who were able,
and not on those who were unable to hear it, viz.
the tenant, the at lizan, awl the meciranic. In'every
point of view, such a tax appeared to him far prefer-
able, and he was BM aShatiled to avow his preference
to it, notwithstanding the appeal to his Coosti-
toetos. to which die Hon. INlernber had so point-
edly alluded. He thought the Gentlemen oppo-
site would best evince the-sincerity of their feel-
ing for the distresses of the country, by support-
ing such a Property Tax. If, however, the House
resisted it, he should feel compelled to vote for
those now proposed, as the only means offered for
mainttnance of the financial credit of the
country ; and from a belief that they bore as
lightly upon the people as any to the same extent
could do, except that the suggestion of which
he now threw out for the consideration of the
House. •

lkir. CARTWRIGHT approved of the principle of
what had been said by the last Speaker on the
subject of a property tax, but the burden now
proposed was ligoter than a property tax could be,
and less oppressive imposts could not, in his opi-
nion, be devised, than those selecied by the Right
Hon. Gentleman. When the Hon. Member op-
posite complained of the war taxes which had been
continued, he ought not to have kept out of sight
the fact, that the people, at the termination of the
tvar, had , been relieved froth taxation to the
amount of eighteen millions. .

Mr. J. P. GRANT inquired why a part of the
Sioking.Fund of Ireland had not been applied to
the Loan of the present year. The operation, of
she Euglish Sinking Fund might, he thought, have
tae effect of causing great transfers of property to
be made to Ireland with advantage. Care ought
to-be taken to guard against nuy inconvewieace
from this source. Now, with respect to what had
been said of the flonrishingstateot the country, he
would offer a few words. Though he believed it
would always be able to cope with every ieviry,
and though he would be the last to moderate its
means when it was threatened with an hostile, at-
tack, yet it was wholesome that we ourselves
should see the true irate of our affairs. The Right
llooonrable Gentleman had said we should now,
he trusted, have no occasion for more loans or
new taxes. Did he forget that three millions of
our present revenue arose: from War Taxes which
he himself, considering them as such, had only
proposed that they shoold continue till 1820 or
1821 ; and when it was remembered that the ap-
parently. flourishing state of the revenue in last
January was oily the result of over-tradiug,
which was most injarioui to the contory.,rhe did
not think all that exultation warranted which
bud been expressed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
the importance of preserving undiminished .the
'Sinking Fund of Ireland. There was one other
point upou which he wished to say. a few words—
namely, the expectations which were to be enter-
tained as to the future state of the revenue. lie
was the more anxious to do so in consequence of
what he had stated on this subject in the former
debate. On that occasion he had mentioned that
some small diminution had been perceptible in the
revenue during the last quarter. This bad cer-
tainly appeared from the accounts as made up at
the time when he spoke ; but lie was happy to be
able now to state to the House, that up to the
time when he spoke the diminution had been
made good.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The balance
had been turned within the last few days, and the
amount of the revenue in the last .quarter was as
great as in any preceding one. This clearly
showed that the small diminution which he had
referred to on Monday was merely accidental,
aid that there was no reason to apprehend that
the revenue of the present year would he hinny
degree diminished, as compared with, the periods
in which it had been most flourishing.—(l-lea-r,
hear, hear would of course In rash to sot.

,3,

e.late on any increase in the "present year ; tint,
►tt the *line time. he saw no teason to suppose
that the nrnonnt of the revenue for the remainder
of it would be in any dt.gece 'deereased.—(llear,
hear, hear Y.)

Mr. J. P. GRANT said, that_he could not under-
stand in wha't way the transfer of stock from Ire-
land could add ro the capital or the debt. What
advantage could there be in having two stocks at
different rates of, interest As 4o the state of the
revenue, he must remind the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, that in the disastrous year of 1811 i, ts lien he
reckoned on an increase at the revenue, it had
turned out that there was awactual decrease.- He
begged to ask, the Right 1100. Gentleman, whether
in the present quarter a large advance had not beets
made to the revenue from the East India Company ?

The CHANCELLOR of the ExonFiILIER said, it
was certainly true that within the last week a
large payment had been made into the Exchequer
by the East India Company, bat it was not in-
cluded in the at-collot of the state of the revenue
which he had just given.
Sir RottEtyr \VJLsoN said, he should not obey
the instruction's of his constituents, or think he
discharged his duty, if he did not now state his
determination to oppose all the. intended new
taxes. If he was capable of wishing to see do-
mestic disturbances agitate the conntfy, he could
not think any thing more suited to this purpose
than all the measures adopted by his Majesty's
Ministers. Taxation bud certain limits, and
could .not be pressed beyond what the people could
bear Whenever the oppression became too great,
resistance must follow. It would not do to say
that the stock-hoider's interest required that new
taxes should be imposed ; and that to support
them, there should he brought for ward all army
of tax-gatherers, with foot nntrdragoon guards in
their rear. Night did not more sorely follow day,
than resistance follomed ta.xation. This was ex-
emplitied by What had happened in France, in
l'riosi t, and at the Cape of Good Hope., while
he seas there himself. The sante thing had also
happened in the island of Ct•ylon. Ile mairvaiu—
ed that by proper mana,:ement the Colonial Re-
venue could be made suffici,,nt to answer the ex-
pences ot• the Colonies. If no other Member
would
,(10 so, lie should feel it his duty to divide
the House on each tax, seriatim.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, the more he considered

the proposed new. Taxes, the more object ional&
did they seem : he was therefore resolved to avail
himself of every constitutional mode fur oppo,iag
them. At the saint- time he must say, that he
thought the Sinking Find should certainly amount
at least to 5,000,000 L As to what had been said
of Ministers being goaded on to the present mea-
sures, and of his friends hiving hinted roood
against the Nlinisters so soon as the naked state
of the country had been exposed, he most
ob-
serve, that no exposure had been made beyond
what was contained in the Finance Report, ex-
cept whet was mentioned in the Report ou the
affairs of the Bank ;relative to the amount of Go-
vernment securities in the hands of the Bank.—
The sure mode of providing an adequate Sinking
Fond was by economy rind retrenchment. . With
this view he thought the Army Estimates bad been
of an noreasonable amount.
Mr. Alderman WOOO said be had received no
instructions from his Constituents relative to the
new taxes, nor did he think it necessary that he
should, becaose he had lived long enough in -the
City of London to know that they were quite un-
able to hear any addition to the taxes. The only
mode of providing a proper Sinking Fund was by
economy *toil retrenchment iii all the establish-
ments, especially the Army and the Ordnance.
Mr. Ibnattoo said, that when,a Sinking Fund
was provided, there was always a (loner of its
being applied by the Ministers to the exigencies
of the public service. No man felt the necessity
of redwing the National Debt more than himself,
or felt it more a mill-stone hanging upon the.coon-
try and Oppressing its energies. Lie would not,
however, 'Wish tO.• have recourSt to a Property
Tax for the purpose of reducing this debt,. be:.
cause a Property Tax, like every other Tax, was
heavy pressure upon the resources of the nation.
But he must sap that lie would agree to give up a
treat proportion of his own property towards tire
reduction of the National Debt, if others would do
the same thing. For it must be felt that the opera-
tion of the National Debt, at its pressent enorao4S
'amount, prevented the wealth of the country front
being employed in the most prodtretive way., With
these views he could not approseof the measures
now adopted by the Governoieut; But at the
same time he must express his sense of the credit
which was dne_to the Right Honourable Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for the mode in which he
had conducted the financial meesures within the
last few days.—(Laughter.)--He spoke as a
Memherof• Parliament.—(Hear, hear, hear !)
But lie most say that he thought mod, credit was
also due to 10i Honourable friend (Mr. Grenfell),
for having• so long persisted in rei_ounnending
those measures which the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had at length adopted.
Mr. GIiy.NFELL wished to know whether be was
right in his understanding of the measures in-
tended: to be adopted with 'r'espect to the Sinking
Fund. What he understood was, that for thelu-
Imre on part of the Sinking Fund, upon borrowed
money, should be applied, for the purpose of ac-
cumulating, to reduce that debt. It had been said
by one lion. Member, that the application of the
Sinking Fund would be a breach of faith with the
public creditor. But this could not be the case,
because what had been 'done was no more than
what. was expressly authorised by Mr. Fox'S
clause to the Sinking Fund Act. That it was not
felt to be a breach of faith by the. public creditor
was evident from the effect which had been pro-
duced upon the price of time Funds.

11r.•111CARD-0 begged to know whether it was
intended to continue the- plan of appropriating
part of the Sinking Fund to the expences of the
current time in the next 'year, or whether it was
merely adnpted for the present year, without any
intention of.continning it longer. _

The.CLIANCEI.I.OII of the EXCHFQUAR begged it
might he distinctly noderottod, that' by whdt he
might now sky he should lint in any degree pledge
himself as to the plan of Einanee which he might
adopt tor the next year.--(Flcar, hear, hear !)
He should, therefore., with this reservation, reca-
pitulate the statement which he iced already made

on this subject. lie had stated that the stint
which it might be necessary to raise for the
plies of next year, world be about 11,000,0001.
If to this another 1,000,0001. was ,ul.led for con-
tingencies, and the amliint were taken from the
Sinking Fund, 5,000.0001. would remain for that
fund, and only 4,000,0001. would remain to be
raised by loan.

Mr. GRENFeLL wished to know whether the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had made up his
mind as to the bonus .01 SOW. per million, which
had been usually s.allOwed to the 134nk upon. a
loan, and whether it was to be continued on the
re3ent loan ? It so, he teal tesolved to submit to
the House a motion upon the sohiee•t.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHRQUER said he had
not ,come to any definitive resolution on the sub.
.jeet, hitt that at pri-sent he did not see reason for
departing from the old practice.
Several of the Resolutions were then agreed ro.
On the question being pot on the Resolution
for the State Lotteries, the Committee divided:-
-Ayes 117
Dues
Majority for the Resolution....
The question being then put on the Resolution
for increasing the Mal«tuty,

Mr. GOOCH said, 'that after having voted for the general
Finance Resolutions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it
gave him great pain to oppose this, which leas one of the
principal ntearis by which he meant to provide for the tittp-
plies voted. But ha felt it his duty to oppose it, on this prin-
ciple, that it was an unreasonable oppression upon the agri-
cultural interest. That interest he looked upon as the main
support of the nation, yet it hid been onreasonahly over-
looked and neglected. The Corn Bill he looked ,up.n as a
dead letter. It was in fact mo encouragement what:•ver to
the agricultural interest. Yet this tax was now pr., rased,
which would have the inevitable effect of oppressing that part
of the community. The Chancellor of the ',xclicquer iatleed
sail, that this tax would not iitlect any dais of the com-
munity. This indeed
...was a rare quail inn in a tax.---
Mrar, bear!)—lint it it was n-t felt by the farmer, it would
he feit by the eonsumers, win) wet c principally of the Mho:lr-
ing elases. He was t her:fore res+ll red, tha: when the lilt
was brought in for this tax, he would divide the House
upon it.

Mr. BUXTON rose to vindicate the brewers from the im-
putations cast upon them by the Chancellor of the Eechequer.
He owned that he, felt exceeding great indignation on tine
subject, but that hr would u t exceed the huonds of Ow re-
spect which was due to the House met to the. Right teen.
Gentleman, if he gave the most direct contradiction which
the Emslish ianenage could afford to the statement welch bad
liven made relative to the brewery by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer on Monday uigiit.
Mr. BROGDEN. (the,Chairman) rose to order. It was a
rule, that it was irregular for stay Member to allude to lan-
guage which had been used by any other Member en a former
delte,. It was of cietree. for the. Committee tonic eide whe-
ther they %smith! ast .tepeti this rule.. •
Mr. A-Alt Gelway) thought it would he very incon-
veilista for the. House• to. aet upon this rule.—(Cries of
Question, quest ion !")
Mr. BUXTON said, that if any Hen. Member on ant- for-
mer ((erasion made a statement ituputhig _the-164h price of
porter to•the rapacity of the brewers, that statement was un-
founded.- brewers were a esetenniated and devoted race
of meneee(Leughter.)—The truth was, that on several occa-
sions, wheit'tle price of molt hail risen 20s. per quarter, they
had riti,ed the beer :oily Tits. Phis wits not dour, he must
admit, front any feeling of compassioe towards the public.,
hut was the effect of competition. As to the general taxes
Which were now ploposed, he entertained opinions, in one
respect, different front the Hon. Members opposite; in other
respects, differeet front Hon. Members near hint ; mut,
other respects, different front almost every man iii the court-
iry.—(Laue,hter.)—However ludicrous this might appear, he
thought it.his duty to stale it plainly; and he wasnsitt afraid
to avow, that he thought this oils. of the most proper periods
for raisins!, new taxes. It was indispensibly necessary fur the
security of the country, that an adeqeate revenue should be
raised. •But he decidedly objected to the Malt Tax, as fall;
iug almost exclusively upon the lower eiders.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that none
of the taxes which he had proposed were intended to fall upon
the poor for the purpose of securing the property of the rich.
The threat object of these taxes was ultim.lze relief and imme-
diate security to the whole nation.—(Loud cheering;.)—As to
what had been said with. so much warinte by the Honourable
Geetleman who spoke last, he must observe that he had cast
no such aspersionenpou brewers as was supposed.. if indeed
it could be supposed that Le was in any degree concerned in
the private calumnies ;spinet that class, then he could under-
stand the warmth of the lion. Gentleman. tut he was not
aware that he bad made any statement which called for any
warmth beyond difference of opiaion. Ali the stateineets
which he had made were from the best authority. tic had
said that the country had not experienced the relief which was
expected front the remove/ of the War Malt Tax; and as an
instance of this he observed, that the price of potter had not
been reduced. At tile same time it Was rather strange that
Ire had. been twice initromental in bringing out lite secret,
that the price of porter was to be reduced.
Mr. WODEHOUSE rove to oppose the present tax, not
front a feeling ;het it was unitecessary, but heeettse he
thmight. it would he exceedingly impolitic, because bleb!),
injurious to the interests of the cooetry, to itnpoee any tax
which might operate to discourage or oppress the grower of
corn. It was only within the last year that the importation
of foreign barley had been of gt eat iaintmet, anti yet it- wits
at this very time that a new tax was laid upon t his article.
Mr. CALVERT-thonight that the taxes proposed by the
Chsaeollor of the Exchequer were the most ohjectomable.that
could he Vroposed. That ou molt was partieolerly oejeetion-
able, as affecting the lower orders exclusively; ter he was
sorry to say that the liquors manufactured from malt wrre
not so much consumed by the higher class as he could wise
(Lauehtete)—The tax on tee, tohaccte and the other articles,
were ohjectemabie for the same reason, because they•wouid
fell (hiedy upon the lower orders. The Itiget Hon. Greittle-
man was completely wrong in all hie statements on winch he
lowlifed his impntations:tgainst the breweN.
Mr. HUMUS:SON said he was not at all surprised at the
indignation with which the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last,
anti another Hon. Gentleman, had expressed themselves on
the subject of the imputations against the Brewers ; but it
was renetrkable that all on which his Right Hon. Friend
founded his (Onion of the expediency of the Tax on Malt,
remained uneontradicted by those Hon. Gentlemen : namely,
that Ilse imposition of this tax would not raise the price of
porter.—(Hear, hear, hear!) it appeared from the state-
ments of the•Hou. Gentlemen, that the Brewers, so far from
being justly liable to the imputation of rapacity,were obliged
to sell beer at a price which occasioned a heavy loss to them,
olt account of the'-effect of competition. Let the Hituse
only recollect what sort of competition bad taken placer
among this very I collect able class of persons :—A meeting was
field some time ago by the Brewers, at which they came to
a resolution not to lower the pi ice o: porter. Ilk was time
competition hear, hear 1)—It was a meeting of the
competitors, andel) agreementamong thein.—(Hear, bear 9
IL was certainly impossible to expect, even whru it was ad-
mitted that a certain sum :oust he raised by taxes, SO tied :any
vexes which would not be objected -to by that class on hunt
they would principally fail. It was therefore no weeder teat
varioas objections had been started to the taxes new priieesed.
Mr:G. LAMB had inn hesitation in declaring, that. it mould
require ten or twenty brewers, hacked even lay the Clince!lor
of the Exchequer, to peove to him that the taxi on Malt would
nnt fall ultimately oat the consumer. It was idle and absurd to
eutentain difkrunt sentiments ; therefore his cou,itituents
would sidret and consecitiently it was his fluty to oppose it. Rut
lie had an additional reason fur opposing it. The tex would fall
heavilyou the coninnsuity at large. It would deprive the lower
classes of the people, now languishing and groaning under
their burdens, of that eesential beverage of life. But admittine,
for the sake, of argument, that the price would coutitme at
its present standard, what pledge fins the Chanceller of
the Exchequer the people that it will not he reduced its
quality ? Some two years ago, the price was net reduced,
but the quality was, iwpruved ; but, in this case, the quality
would •be reduced, if Clue price was mot raised. He be-
lieved, however,. that. the public would suffer butts ways,
and that time Weuld Ise a wonderful' reduction in quali-
ty, With a coosiderable:rise, ill price. Instead of oppressieg
the lower classes of the people, there should be teL
in every Depattnient of the State. When Ministers
came forward with the large retrenchments long expeteet
by the people, he winad then be• inclined to support theme
INeithet he nor any Geetleinaa on his side of the House wish-
ed for any enetiestitutienal 0)6(1p-tient of the privileges or
prerogative of tin... Crown. They wanted to maintain it in its
utmost dignity and splendour; nor did be meats, et this lime.
to adept sir. Genoiee's maxitu; but while be approved of