The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-19 00:00:00

AUGUST.

Sir F. BURDETT said he held in his hand a Petition from
Richard Stoddard, of Lane-end, Staffordshire, which appeared
to him to m.ll for the particular attention of the House. It was
brought up, and read. The Petitioner stated that he had been
in the habit of going to Manchester on business, and of
lodging at a public-house kept by Mrs. Biioth, near New-
cross; that on the 16th of August, 1819, he had done little
business on account of the crowd, and retired early to the house
in which he lodged ; that at 5 o'clock a party of police officers
seized upon him ; and, notwithstanding his remonstrances,
and assurances of not being a promiscuous customer, but a
lodger, thrust him out ; that a yeoman of the cavalry then at-
tacked him and endangered his life ; that the wounds inflicted
disabled bins from carping on his business, and entirely • de-
stroyed his prospects in life; that he was now dependent on
parochial aid. He prayed to be allowed to prove those facts
at the Bar of the House, his poverty net allowing him to seek
redress by an action at law, and trusted that the House would
not suffer such atrocities to be justified or palliated by the
actors or their coadjutors.

Sir F. 'BURDETT said, it was a little hard that persons in
authority should take on themselves to deny facts, and throw
out imputations without a particle of evidence. The statement
of Mr. Pearson of the number of persons wounded on the 16th,
and taken to the hospital (and there were more than Mr. Pearson
had thought proper to state), he believed, upon authority which
could not be doubted, to be perfectly correct, and the statement
of the.Salieitor-General to be entirely and completely erroneous.
It was very hard, he repeated, that the Members of that House
should be misled. by such assertions oh subjects of this kind,
and that all inqUiry should be refused.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. DENMAN took that opportunity to explain. His
Learned Friend the Solidtor-General had said, that Mr. Pear-
son had been blamed by the Court of King's Bench for with-
holding an affidavit. If there was any blame, it was his (Mr.
Denman's), for he had withheld it, conceiving it to be irrele-
vant. Mr. Bo= had made affidavit that if the Court of King's
Bench would issue a mandamus, he would issue warrants to ap-
prehend those charged with felonies on the 16th of August.
The Court said, they would not have granted a rule to show
cause if they had been aware of that. But he (Mr. Denman)
could not yet see how such an affidavit could affect the crimi-
nality of a magistrate refusing a warrant to a poor person who
had not means to obtain a mandamus. Another error he was
anxious to correct was, that he had said the meeting had been
legal. He had never said so. He knew not whether it was so
or not. • The question might be full of distinctions. It was,
he thought, perfectly legal for a vast majority, and illegal for
others. Thus the Learned Judge had stated at York, and the
Jury had found.—The petition was ordered to be printed.
MEMBERS HOLDING OFFICES.

Mr. H. G. GILBERT moved fora return of Members hold-
ing offices under the Crown.—Ordered.
METROPOLIS ROADS BILL.
Mr. D. GILBERT presented a Petition in its favour from
the owners of land, &c. in St. Matthew's, Bethnal-green.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL ased when the subject
was to be brought forward.
Mr. D. GILBERT would prefer the present moment, if the
Mouse would allow-him (" move, move') ; but the Ordnance
Estimates requiring the attention of the House, he would not
press it now.
Mr. CALCRAFT said it would not take much time, because
he hoped .it•would be soon thrown out.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'said, he
would more for a Comthittee of Ways and Means,in ordei to be
enabled to issue money which was now lying in the Exchequer.
After several observations by Mr. H. Gurney, Mr. Calcraft,
Mr. D. Gilbert, Mr. Bennet, and a Member whose name we
could not learn, the petition was laid on the table, and the order
on the subject was postponed.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The CHANC-ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day fur the House to resolve
itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
Mr. BARING- rose and put some question, to
the Chancellor of the Exchequer of which, and
of the answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman, we
were unable to hear a word, in consequenee.ol
the noise which 'prevailed in the body of the
House.

Mr. HuMI wished to know from the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, what day he intended to

PRICE SEVENPENCrs

fix for the Spoiled. Stamp Duty Bill, as he in-
tended to propose a clause to reduce the per
centage of the country distributors from 4 to 2,
per cent.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
could not positively name a day.
Sir J. NtwponT compla'ned that Bills which
should -have been prepared at the commencement
of the Session, were not yet ready, in conse-
quence of which a great mass of business was
yet\to be disposed of. The Spoiled Stamp Bill,
most improperly- named so, was a Bill, Which,
under colour of affording a remedy
_*parti-
cular case, was, in fact, a measure i::).-)w and.
, heavy t'axa. ion-
-
Lord TON said, that in the Committee
there we dded to the Bill, which originally con-
sisted of about five or six clauses, no less than
thirty clauses and a schedule of new duties. It
was, in fact, a Bill for additional and heavy
taxation, and deserved the particular attention of
Country Gentlemen.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he
did not mean to carry the Bill by surprise ; be
would be able to defend the clauses at the pro-
per time.

Mr. DEN MAN suggested, that a separate Bill
should be introduced for the relief of persons
having spoiled stamps in their possession ; and
that separate Bill might be introduced for the
other objects which the Right lion. Gentleman
had in view.

The CHANCELLOR of *the EXCHEQUER. dissented
from this proposition.

Mr. J. P. GRANT said, it was plain that the
Right lion. Gentleman was unwilling to grant a
remedy without, in return, acquiring the means
of additional taxation.

On the House resolving itself into a Committee
of Ways and Means,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
the first Resolution—To apply the Unclaimed
Dividends to the purposes of the public.
Mr. GRENFELL complained of large balances
which were.left in the'hands of the Bank, and
which ought to have been appropriated to the
public service. Had this .been 'done, the country,
for the last year, would have ,gained, in the way
of interest, the sum of 111,000/.
Mr. C. SMITH thought that, considering the
relations of the Bank and the' Government, the
balances ought, in point of fairness, to be left in
the hands of the Bank.

Mr. J. MARTIN wished to know when a List
of the Unclaimed Dividends would be published ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQuER said, he
could not answer precisely. He did not know
whether the last Unclaimed Dividends were pub-
lished at the instance of the Government or of
the Bank.

Mr. BARING contended, that at the time of the
renewal of the charter, it mas expressly stipu-
lated between the Bank of England and Mr.
Pitt, that that corporation should be the Bankers
of the Government ; for that advantage the Bank
gave a handsome equivalent. Was it just, then,
to deprive the Bank of retaining the balances in
their possession, which, by the spirit of their
agreement, they had a right to refain ? He could
not. help observing, that upon every possible
occasion. his Honourable Friend made exagge-
rated statements and misrepresentations against
the Bank, but he still hoped that the House
would be ready to do justice to that useful cor-
poration.

Mr. GRENFELL said, that his wish and object
was that these balances should, as far as was con-
sistent with justice, be made available to the
public. lie was as well acquainted with the un-
derstanding between Mr. Pitt and the Bank, on
the renewal of the charter in 1800, as his lion.
Friend could possibly be ; but was it to be con-
tended that there was to be no restraint or limi-
tation of the sums which, to the injury of the
public, were to be left in the hands of the Bank ?
There were at present four in the Bank, why
not appropriate three millions of that sum to the
public service ?

Mr. BARING said he did not think that a less
sum than four millions in the Bank could answer
the daily purposes of Government.
Mr. HUME said, he was surprised at the obser-
vations of the Hon.. MeMber for Taunton., . Lis-
tening to that Hon. Member, one would.. be -in-
clined-to suppose that the Bank was a poor Cor-
poration, entitled to public pity and support.—
But what was the fact ? The Proprietors of the
Bank of England, exclusive of the dividend of 7
per cent., which they then received, shared
amongst them, since the year 179.6) -a sum of
twenty-six millions of the public money. Ile
would have expected from the Hon. Member for
Taunton very different expressions, at a moment
when the country was suffering under great dis-
tress,, and when, of course, every possible eco-
nomy ought to be adopted.
CALCRAFT said, that it should be recol-
lected that a very large allowance was made to
the Bank for conducting the public business --
The Bank, On that account, received no less than
two hundred and seventy thousand a year. As
the' Bank was paid very liberally for transacting
public buSiness, not a shilling more of balance
should be suffered to remain in their hands be-
yond what the exivencies of the public service
demanded.—The Resolution was agreeol to.
A vote was then proposed, to provide for .the
Exchequer Bills which had been issued on public
works out of the receipts of the Exchequer.
Sir J. NEWPORT said that the principles OR
which the Commissioners who were entrusted
with the issue of the Exchequer Bills voted for
the relief of commercial distress in Ireland were
such that the vote was rendered nugatory ; and
when a motion had been made for the prodnetiom

t -,yyk
• cn,c)-) if; •r,

-of the rules under which they acted., they had
made no return.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Commissioners were eery respectable men,
-who had no doubt ated on a sense of duty.
Sir J. NEWPORT said it did not follow they
mint not have very erroneous notions of the
mode of carrying the wishes of Parliament into

effect. . .
BARINGsaid it was evident, from the fact
that only 1.50,0001; had been issued out of
EOO,OOO/. that the Cornmis:4oners were.authoriied
to I!,3ue, that the rules under which they acted
That have been very strict. It was tit now, how-
ever, that the pressure of distr.ess had ceased,
the power of the Commissioners to advance
:-.le,rey should be put an end to, if it did not ex-

hire of itself.
Ga ENIELt, said, he had heard the con-
duct of the Commissioners much complained of,
but he had also heard it stated in their defence,
that the rules under which they acted were the
same as those acted upon by the Commissioners
in England. If that were true, he thought"they
acted correctly.
Mr. S. TheE said he was the itigmber who
had moved for the Return of the Rule der which
the Commissioners for the issue of Commercial
Exchequer Bills in Ireland had acted. The
lieturn had been that there were no Rules. Now he
had, in common with most Gentlemen connected
with Ireland, seen a set of printed rules, which
were sent to all applicants' for advances. These
rules he wished to haVe had on the Table. He
could show from them, that they deprived Ireland
of all the benefits which she might-have derived
from the liheraiity of Parliament. It was not
enough to say that the rules acted upon were the
same as those in England; unless the circum-
stances of the two countries were the same. Ire-
land was poor in personal property, its wealth
was in the land, which was a_security the Com-
missioners refused. Thu refused even the seen-
lity of the Government itself, for they would
not advance 2,0001. on land, of which the Board
of Customs had taken a lease at or 4001. a
year.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it
vas the uniform rule with the Government never
to interfere with the Commissioners.
-Mr. S. RICE observed, it was commendable
not to interfere in individual cases, but it was
the duty of the Government to pay attention to
the general rules which were to be acted upon.—
'The vote was agreed to.
On a vote of 500,0001. on the advance of the
Bank of Ireland,
Mr. -BARING wished to know when the Chan-
'cellor of the Exchequer would make his general
statement of the finances of the year ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he
should be glad to answer that question, but it
'depended on the progress of the Supplies. Be-
fore they were voted, the hlon. Gentleman was
aware it was neither usual nor proper to make
any general statement of finance.
The Resolution was agreed to, the House re-
sumed, and the Report was ordered to be re-
ceived on Monday.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the
• Mr. CHETWYND said; at a period like the pre-
sent, when so much distress prevailed, when so
Many manufacturing towns were on the verge of
insolvency, and when so many taxes were so pa-
tiently borne, the people of England were look-
ing with anxious eyes to those who represented
them in the great Council of the nation. They
tad crowded the table with Petitions, with
the strongest prayers, in the most courteous lan-
guage. In the discussion of the Army and Navy
Estimates great efforts had been made to ef-
fect reductions, but they had failed.—(Hear!)-:---
Those exertions had, however, done much prac-
tical good ; they had had the effect of clearly
exposing to view a system of extravagance of

-which he, for one, had no idea, and which had in-
'<laced many well thinking, persons to say, that if
the House did not reform itself within, a 'revolu-
tion must take place without. Be believed that
the first would be the case, forhe would prophecy
that no War Minister wonld, next year bring
down such Estimates as those of the present year
—if he did, he would be addressed, in the lan-
' guage his Majesty used when he saw the head of
Charles the First in the vault at Windsor—
:" Take it away ! take it away ! it is too horrid
to contemplate." He hoped nothing would in-
duce the Honourable Gentlemen opposite him
to relax in their exertions, for economy. lie for
one would remain by them till Christmas to op-
pose one shilling being voted beyond what was
'absolutely necessary. The digress of the coun-
try was such, that if relief was not given,-the
- yeomanry must be- annihilated, and it tihird hot
but excite the utmost disgust that under such
circumstances extravagant establishments should
be persisted in. He moved, as an amendment,
44 That it be an instruction to the Committee,.
that, duly taking into consideration the circum-
stances of the country, they should proceed to
enforce the most rigid system of economy, as far'.
'as the same can be held without detriment to the
substantial interests of the State."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, no
one denied the Hon. Gentleman's general propo-
Bition ; they only denied that the Estimates were

extravagant.—(Bear, hearl from the Opposition.)
Mr. M-ABERLY said, it was trifling 'to say that
-there had been a sincere desire of economy mani-

Vested. The mere fact that with 81,000 soldiers,
'22,000 sailors, and 6 or 7000 artillerymen, there
-was an expenditure o•f 17 millions, was conclusive
as to its extravagance. If this was to be the

expenditure in the time of peace, what were they
-to have in war ?—(Hear, hear 1)-1 f there was
an earnest desire of economy, within the next
twelve tnonths four millions might be saved. Re-
trenchment should proceed from the highest
offices downwards instead of beginning frith the
lowest, and he hoped his Majesty himself would
set the example. He advised the Ministers to

-withdraw their Estimates, and propose more red-
i;ona hie ones.

Lord LONDONDERRY said that the only object

of ReFolutions of this description was to give
Gentlemen an opportunity for making broad as-
sertions in high sounding phrase, at a time when
they could notlae met in detail. I fGentlemen bad
obintions to make, the most effectual place for
making them would be in the Committee. An
lion. Gent. opposite had said that the expen-
diture of carrying on the Government of this
country might be reduced by four millions. Now,
out of the seventeen millions which. it did amount
to, five millions were beyond the coutroul of
Government, being applied to allowances and
other fixed expenc:•s ; and if, out of the remain-
ing twelve, the Hon. Gentleman would take away
four, did l.e imagine, that this great empire was to
have its Government carried on at an expend of
no more than eight millions ? The Hon. Gen-
tleman and the. House might be assured that there
was no effort which Ministers could make towards
economy, which they did not make.—(Hear !
from the Opposition.)L—They were bound to
make those efforts ; and he could not, therefore,
but protest against the round assertions which
had been made by. Gentlemen on the other side.
of the House.,
Mr. MABERLY said, the Noble Lord had im-
puted to him a gross blander. He had never put
the whole expence of the empire at 17 millions,
but the military expenditure only,— (Hear !)
Besides those 17 millions, there were four. mil-
lions of Civil List, the Miscellaneous Esti-
mates, and payments ,out of the gross Revenue.
The reduction must be spread over the whole
expenditure.
Mr. CALCRAFT :said, th►e lion. Gentleman (Mr.
Moberly) -so- far from having feared to advance
his opinions in a Committee, had stated them
over and over again without being refuted. The
reason for a motion such as the present was, that
when they got into the Committee any benefit was
hopeless ; they had,moved reduction after reduc-
tion, and not a shilling bad been reduced. The
lion. Gentleman who made the motion was de-
serving. of thanks, as well for the substance of it
as for the manner in which he had propOsed 'it.
Mr. IlustussoN said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr'.
Calcraft) proceeded upon the usual assumption,
that all reason' eras on the side of the minority
and none on the side of the majority, but the
Hon. Gentleman was the.less entitled to speak on
the subject, as he bad seldom attended to hear
them. The Civil, List,.the lion. Gentleman must
recollect, was voted for the life of the Sovereign,
and, therefore, did not admit of sudden reduc-
tion, though no doubt it was competent for Par-
liament to hold a check over it when aid was ap-
plied for.. The Estimates were 1 million be-,
low those of the preceding war, and great ef-
forts were made to
,redu.ce the expence of the
collection of the revenue.

Lord Mu:l.ON called the attention of the Right
lion. Gentleman to the period immediately fol-
lowing the close of the war. Between the pro-
posing and voting the Estimates on that occasion,
a remarkable circumstance had occurred. it bad
been attempted to introduce the Property Tax,
which design however had been defeated by the
House. Yet although the ,Estimate then before
the House had been described as the lowest
which could possibly be adopted, the Hon. Se-
_

. ,
cretary of War, in consequence Of the failure of
the Property Tax, had brought down to the House
Estimates considerably lower thanthose which he
had before represented to be the lowest that
_ _

could be furnished. There never was a time
when there, had been a greater necessity for eco-
nomy than at the present moment. He thanked
the Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Chetwynd) for his
sentiments, and also for the manner in which they
had been expressed. Those sentiments were his
own. The language which the lion. Gentleman
had used was the language of. the Constitution.
ft had been spoken by our ancestors in the 17th

century, and ought to be acted upon in the 19th
The Hon. Gentleman had expressed a fear of re

volution ; the term revolution was vague and
uncertain, but there was beiond dispute.a revo-
lution operating on the .state of property, which
he was confident, unless speedily checked, would

sweep .aWay the middle class of society. lie
could hardly believe that Ministers were aware
of the depressed state of the country.
Mr. liumr. contended for the right of Parlia-
Ment to review the amount of the civil list, and
he hoped that before the year Was expired the
amount of that establishakent would be reduced.
If ever a House of Commons had been indifferent
to the people's purse, it was when they establish-
ed the civil list at 870,0001. a year—a sum now,
from the change in the 'value of money, equal to
1,400,000/. It VVIS said that the estimates for
this year were, a millign and a half less than those
of the last. In answer to this, he should only
say. that the Ordnance estimates for the-present
year exceeded by 100,0001. those of the last.—
(Hear.)—They were last year 1,2001. and odd
thousandi they were now 1,327,0001. The first

,
vote about to he called for when they- went into
the Committee was 63;000/. for the Ordnance
establishments in -the -Tower and.- Westminster.

In the year 180 S this branch cost but 20,0001.,
and nosy it was to cost 63,0001.—(11ear.)
Mr. llusrrssos explained, and the House di-
vided upon the amendment, when the numbers

were,
For the Amendment - - - - 40
Against-it - - - . - - - 05
Majority in faYour of the origmal Motion - —25
Upon our re-admission to the 'Gallery we
found Mr. WARD on. his leg 4 pleading for the

general character of the Estimates.

The Hon.

Member concluded with proposing the grant of

4,6391. for the use of the Chit-Officers and

Clerks of the Ordnance upon foreign stations.
Mr. HumE observed, that the grants to all the
old foreign stations, included in this proposition,
were no less than double what they had been,

while those for the new stations were unaccount-

ably extravagant. Jn Malta it was proposed to

make the allowance double what it was in 1808,
while at Ceylon it was to he trebled, the allow-

ance in 008 being only 1,1501., while the al-
lowance now proposed was 3,270/. What could

be the reason also of such increase in the lonian

Islands, wherecfrom what he. heard, and he had

the best opportunities of information from that
quarter, the whole .expence of the Ordnance
might easily be defrayed for 5001. a year. At
Barbadocs, the expence under this head was also

increased, while at all the other teewaidlansis
it was more than doUbled. After animadverting
upon the increased allowance for the Capp of
Good Hope, Which exceeded that since the year
1816, the lion. Member adverted 'to what he
called the extraordinary 'establishment at Heli-
goland, which was incapable'of defence—which,
before we took
.possession of it, was committed
to the care of a serjeant 'and a few men, which
had never more than fifty or one hundred mi-
litary men stationed there, ever since it
came into our possession, which, in fact,, was
of no use .to this' country, unless during
the war that exclaled our commerce from the
Continent. Yet in this wretched spot, we had
at present a storekeeper at a salary. of 3584. a
year, whose only office he understood' to be that
of taking care that the evening-and morning guns
should be fired.—(A laugh, and hear, hear !)
Bot to even this sort of duty it was impossible
for this storekeeper to attend ; for Mr: Arm-
strong, Who held the office, had been lately in
England for, six months. But this was only one
of the many items of extravagant expenditure at
this Heligoland, as it cost the country no leSs than
10,000/. a year, which sum,was more than double
the value of the fee simple of the whole. island.
--(Hear, hear !)—The Hon. Member, after ex-
pressing a wish to have some statement laid be-
fore the. House, sheaving the items of reduction,
which produced the falling oft of 1,500,0001. in
the present Estimates, as compared with those of
the last' year, coneluded with moving a reduction
of one-foOrth in all the proposed allowances„
namely, that 3,557/. should be struck off from' 'the
sum proposed hY the Secretary of the Ordnance.
Mr. WARD observed, that as the lion. Mem-
ber had pronounced the proposition as to Heligo-
land to be the most "extravagant of all, lie must
Conceive that sort of denunciation to be an implied
eulogium upon all the other grants proposed.--
The Hon. Meinber had observed, that all the
grants for the several colonial officers and clerks
were ddubled in the Estimates on the table, but
the fact was,. that they were -doubled only on
paper, as the several officerS Were, upon thiS ad-
vance, deprived of certain perquisites and emolu-
ments, which they and their predecessors had re-
ceived for series of years. It was, for instance,
the 'practice of thoSe officers to draw rations for
the Subsistence of themselVes and their families,
Which were paid for at the public expence. But
this practice was now abolisheth That abolition
most considerably reducethe revenue of Storekeep-:
ers, as Well as that of others, and the proposed ad-
vance was but a small CoMpensation for that di-
Minution. As to Ceylon, It should be considered
that if the grant to that Island Was trebled, the
establishments there were trebled also. 'Then as
to Malta, the grant could not' be deemed exces-
sive, when it Was reCollected that if the fortifica-
tions of that garrison were in a line, they would
extend to 50 miles, while there were no lesS than
600 pieces of cannon
.there. With respect to
Heligoland, nothing was proposed for our esta-
blishment there that was not deemed absolutely
necessary, and as to the remark of the lion. Gen,
tleman that there were only a few soldiers in
that island before it came into our possession,
that could bo deemed no criterion of its conse,
quence, for Gibraltar had only 700 soldiers in the
garrison,at the time it was originally taken posh
session of by our forces. .The lion. Member
concluded with deprecating the Amendment, as
every practicable reduction had been made in
the Estimates before they were submitted to the
House.

Mr..BENNrr animadverted with'peculiar pun:
gency and animation upon what he described as
the dangerous doctrine of the last speaker as to
the grant of compensations. What, he Would
ask, was it to be laid down as •a principle that
because certain officers had been by a sort of
lineal inheritance in the habit of robbing the
public for 40 or 50 years, by exacting fees or
perquisites, that upon being deprived of those
fees or perquisites, they should be precluded the
opportunity of making farther plunder, such (a-
. cers should be entitled to compensation-=-(hear!) -?
—But this practice of granting gratuities and com-
pensations was very much a favourite at the Or-
dnance. He had heard of the recent assertion of
a similar principle elsewhere, and he did not
know that it was not borrowed from the Ord-
nance Office._ ...The. Magistrates who had .the
superintendance of Coldbath-fields PriSon hav,
ing been somewhat 'surprised a -short time
since at the number of .visitors who had ap-
plied for admission to that prison, inquired- into
the cause, and they found that the applicants
came recommended by a Clerk of the Police,
who, as it turned out, had exacted a fee for
each of his recommendations, which usually prb--'
cured admission to-the prison. But upon' disco-
vering this practice, the Magistrates immediately
ordered the practice of exacting fees to be dis-,
continued. The Yolice _Clerk. remonstrated,
-stating that he only continued the practice of his
predecessor,_ and asserted his right to compensa-
tion, f that practice- were to be discontinued.—(A
laugh, and hear, hear!)-.-Whether this Clerk
quoted the practice of the Ordnance Office in
support of his claim—(a laugh)—he (Mr. B.)
could not Pretend to say ; but -he -knew 'that the
claim was Withstood upon that principle of. com-
mon justice -which he hoped would urge that
House to resist the proposed compensation to the.
Ordnance extortioners of our Colonies.—(feac!)
The honourable Member entreated the House
to consider how they must be collectively
and individually regarded by the country, if,
after so many forcible appeals to their .jus-
tice, they should still continue to disregard
every consideration of economy. how could

.hose Gentlemen answer to their constituents

and to their conscience, ss ho, notwithstanding
the present state .of public distress, had not yet
voted for the reduction of one penny of the-pub-
lic expenditure. They had been called upon to
reduce the expence at Malta, the revenue of
which would have been quite sufficient to defray
its own expellee, if softie members of the needy

Nobility had not been quartered upon it ; but

such was the case with many other Colonies, and
with the Cape of Good Hope in particular. The

call was,. therefore, in vain, because it was ad-

dressed to Ministers, who maintained their power
through the aid of needy Nobles and other poli-

tical adventurers, whom, like
,Ministers
themselves; sought their own interest only at the
expence of a sutferingand impoverished country.
Mr. R. WAnn said he should confine himself
.to a .shrglk' observation, for the sake of:Gentle-
men wilt,' w(11% quite 'as -Iftmest and respectable
as any Hon. Gentleman opposite. He had nei-
ther used the word robbery, as imputed to him
by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, nor had he ad-
mitted that any abuse existed. The fact was,
that the officers were authorised to receive the
rations as perquisites by public documents, which
existed so long ago as the year 1.756.. Ile could
not but regret that Hon.
,Gentlemen opposite
should avail themselves of their privilege, as
Members of that House, to' shinder individuals
who had no means of, answering the charges
which were brought against them.
Mr. G. BENNET maintained, that if the officers
drew rations, which they had no right to draw,
at the public expence, it was in effect a robbery,
and the word was very properly used. If they
were authorised to do so by warrants from Go-
vernment, then Government, and not the officers,
were the robbers.
Mr. R. WAan reported that it was no abuse at
all, inasmuch as they yeere, fully authorised to re-
celie the rations.
Me: J. SMITH hoped the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite_ would give some explanation of the con-
duct of the individuals of whont the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen had complained.
Mr. Hume denied that he had made any:
sweeping charges. In' challenging particular
facts, he had been anxious to confine himself to
those facts, and not to indulge in generalities.
With respect to the establishment'at-Sheerness,
he did assert, and he repented now, that the
Storekeeper, who was in the receipt of a large
salary, was in the habit of taking away boat
loads of timber and coals froM the public stores
to his own house. The facts at Faversham were,
one of the clerks in that establishment reported
to the Board of Ordnance, that Mr. Minton ap-
propriated tc his private use, timber which
was capable -of being applied to the public
service. He was called upon to :send in a formal
charge, andin.the full confidence, of the truth of
his statement, he sent in a written accusation.
Six 'months were suffered to 'elapse before the
llon. Gentleman opposite took any steps to in-
vestigate 'the truth of the charge, and when at
length a Commission was sent down to Fever-
sham to inquire into the circumstances, the
Officers were suspended. The Honourable Gen-
tleman had not laid the result-of that inquiry be-
fore the House. But though the officers were
suspended, the poor 'man Who made the charge
was discharged. The Hon. Member contended,
that if, there . was the least disposition to reduce
useless places and useless expenditure, the whole
expences of the Establishments at Heligola.nd,
Gibraltar, and the Cape of Good Hope, might be
saved. lie should certainly press his Amend-
ment to a division. •
Mr. W; SMITH observed, that when the Cape
of Good Hope was in 'the possession of the
Dutch, it did not cost the Government of Hol-
land a single stiver. Now if the Dutch could

make their Colony support itself, though they
had to contend with a superior maritime power,
surely it ought to be inquired into, why the Civil
and Military Departments of the Cape were a
source of so much expence to this country.
AR Mr. R. WD said, it was a fallacy to argue
that the Dutch kept the Cape against a superior
maritime power, seeing that we had taken it
from them. With regard to the statement of
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, he begged to
observe, that the officers had not been suspendEd
from any conviction of their guilt, •but merely
because that was the usual course, pending an
inquiry into the conduct of inferior officers by
their superior officers. The result of the in-
quiry was a complete acquittal. It was true that
the officers had converted the wood to their own
use, but it appeared that they had misunder-
stood the order, of the Board of Ordnance, and
conceived that this wood was a perquisite which
still remained. There was no ground whatever
for a charge of peculation. Some irregular ap-
propriations had been committed, and they
arose from very ridiculous causes, but were to
be ascribed to any thing rather than to the

score of dishonesty. So much for Sheerness,
and with regard to Feversham, charges had
certainly been preferred against the Storekeeper,
Am ou ting almost to felony, for having purloined'
timber 'and other public property, and for return-
ing false vouchers. The lion. Member complain-
ed that no inquiry had taken place for six
months, but if he had been aware of the corre-
spondence which took place previous to the in-
quiry. be would find that his (Mr. R. Ward's)
time had been .sUfliciently filled up. The Hon.
Member assumed, that because the charges were

proved, the clerk 1v as dismissed ; lie (Mr. W.)
was persuaded, that there was not a Member in

that nouse, or an individual in the country, who
could believe so preposterous a charge; and if
the llon. Gentleman's mind were so constructed

as to come to such a conclusion, he (Mr. W,.)
would not consent to enter into communication
with such a mind.--(A laugh.)—The Ho-
nourable Gentleman had been totally misin-
formed, by .a person whose evidence was worse
than he had ever seen given in a Court
of Justice. With regard to the charge of false
vouchers, the facts were these : there were three

lists of the workmen employed in the Ordnance
printed in the year, with the character and de-

scription of each person annexed to his name.
Upon the reduction of the establishment, the
pay of the Warder, who received three shillings
and six.-pence a day, vas reduced to two shill-
ings and fourpeuce a day, the pay of a labouring
man. The storekeeper had neglected to strike
out the word " warder" opposite his name, after
he came under the description of a labouring man,
and this was the sole ground of the charge. The
Commissioners reported that the wjiole charge
was false, groundless, and malignant, and the
Master-General had accordingly beep advised to
dismiss the man who made it.

Mr. lIOME said, that with regard to Sheerness,
the Hon. Gentleman had in fact admitted' the
charge, though he thought proper to qualify the

pecutatiou witich hid been committed by the

mitigated term of an irregularity. He had not told
the House that the order from the Board of Ord-
nance in ISO 9, that not a particle of timber should
be taken, was so strict and -explicit that no man
uld possibly misunderstand; on the cOntrary,
he was the principal Officer ot--the Ordnance pal-
liating the condio
.of Officers \vho 'Committed
peculation in the ace of that order. The lieu.
Gentleman was holding out an encouragement to
pilfer, and, in effect, saying to every servant
of the Ordnance " Do what, you will, commit
what peculations you''please, and I will defend
you."—(hear, hear I)—With respect to Fever-
sham, the man who was admitted to have com-
mitted what the Hon. Gent. called an irregularity
received an additional gratnity,while the poor tnau,
who ventured to point out the irregularity to.tke
Board
.of Ordnance, was dismissed. He (Mr. HO
had not said that the 'whole of the charge had
been proved. What he complained of was, that
the man was not allowed to prove his charge.
Mr. WAREE thought that sufficient .attention
had not been paid to what fell from the Hon.
Member for Norwich relative to the Cape of
Good Hope. The Hon. Member then made some
observations upon the expenditure of that Co-
lony, and complained particularly of the salary
of the Governor.
Mr. GOULBURN observed that if it was meant
to be stated that the Cape of Good hope tinder
the Dutch Government maintained its own civil
and military expenditure, he must deny that
statement altogether, as it was not consistent
with the facts. He then defended the presemt
Establishments at the Colony, and said that the .'
salary of the Governor was not more than suffi-
cient for the necessary expenses of his situation.
Mr. W. SMITH again rose, when
The CHAIRMAN wished to observe to the Com-
mittee, although it • was perfectly competent for
it to proceed as it liked, that a question upon a
grant of money for the Civil Officers of the Ord-
nance, did not seem to apply in any. way. what-
ever to the general system of Colonial Government.
Lord MILToN considered, that when the
was voting away money for the public service, it
. • •.

I was quite competent for them to enter ;lit° an
examination of any branch of the expenditure._
Such was at least the old and constitutional- way,
but Gentlemen opposite might well object to•it.
for they did not at all act upon the old rules and
•
conduct of Parliament.
Mr. W. SMITH explained.—The Committee then divided.
For the Amendment - -
,Against it - - - -
, Majority in favour of the original Resolution-31
Thynext Resolution was a Grant (.4 50,0001. for BarraJis
and, Garrison Stores, in Great Britain, and the Islands -of
Guernsey and Jersey.
31r. GIPPS wished to have some explanation relative p
some items in this Estimate. It appeared to him that for cer-
tain services Which were now charged 35,0001., only 25,001!1.
had been voted in 1817.
Mr. WARD explained, that the extra 15,0001. was charged
iupon this Estimate, instead of, the unprovided account, where
they appe'-ed in 1817.
Mr. HUME complained of the confusion which they met`
in this Estimate, and that the Committee could not vote-it,
without further explanation.
Mr. .I. SMITH could not understand how 15,0001. cculd be
expended in bedding for Garrisons, and particularly when those
articles were cheaper than they had been for forty years. •
Mr. GIPPS confessed that he. did not understand the reason
why this increase 'was made, and he therefore moved, that the
Estimate he reduced to 33,3001. - - -
Sir U. BURGH said that tie 1:15,000 included the paY'°l
Barrack Serjeants and other contingencies.
Mr. HUME said the present Estimate ought to postpon-
edbei
until Hon. Members could understand the particulars of it
contents.

Alter a few observations from Mr. WARD,
Mr. UIPPS said, if the Mn. Gentleman would postpone the
Estimate, or put the House in 'poiseasion of explanatory. pit"
pers, he would withdraw his Amendment.
Mr. WARD had no objection to furnish whatever papers the
Hon. Member desired. •

Mr. HUME complained of other portions of the Estimate,
and said it ought to undergo considerable reduction.
Mr. MABERLY said, that when he had proposed a reduc-
tion of four millions upon the whole expenditure, the Nole
Lord said that they ought first to examine the details ; and not
they were come .to the details, there was no disposition irl-ext-
.ever to retrench. He complained that the Government had got
into too expensive a system. The Store Departments in `the
Ordnance, and Naval 'Miscellaneous 'Service, might' be -dis-
pensed with.
Mr. WARD stated, the subjects to which the Hon. Member
alluded had been submitted to inquiry, and the result was, that
any small saving would rise up again in the shape of half-pap
The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had objected to the payment
of XBOO to persons connected with the establishment at UraVes-
- upon a supposition that seven or eight workmen required
Gentlemen to look after them. The faCt was, that at fir a's-e,:end
and Tilbury, there were not less than 15" barrels of powdcf,
which must be looked after, otherwise a great loss might be
sustained by the country. Tt was paying MR per annum fox
the security of the value of the powder, which amounted to
considerable sum.

Mr. BERNAL considered it quite uslcss to keep pow ler at
Purfleet-, and Gravesend, for the Its:: of ships.of war, as there
was depth of water for such vessels' to rake it powder at AVOQI'

Mr. HUME complained of the manner in which powder rites
kept in different magazines, as tending to increase expense.
-Mr..WARD remarked, that it had formerly been a matter 0,
complaint that too much powder was kept in one place : t,
present instance they were considered, blameable for keeping 1;
- dispersed, On one uecasion, when 60,0 W/ barrels were kept as
Purflect, all Essex was in a state of alarm ; some supposed.it'
would explode and turn the 'course of the Thaine,?....4A laugllo
After a few observations from Mr.• T. WiLsoN • Mr. OwP4I
Mr. JOIIN SMITH, and Mr. Warm, on the subject of 134"
racks, the Committee divided—
For the Resolution
Against it - - - 6-1
Majority for it - -
Mr. WARD-then proposed a grant of £217,,153 19s. 10d. 0
Account of balances and the pay of the several Officers in 001*
nance Corps.
•Mr. HUME objected to this estimate on the ground that se".
veral master gunners Were paid for doing duty at stations where
there was no duty to be discharged. At some stations there
were no guns. -
Mr. WARD explained the pay allowed matter gunners, to he
no more than a fair remuneration for long and useful servicesi.
It was most important, lie said, to reward the good conduct.e,
non-commissioned officers in the Artillery. In a political }OP,
of view, the allowance to which the Hon. Member objected, °li
the most valuable of all the estimates.
Mr. KENNET and Mr. Hum: urged the propriety of.°t ing the sum proposal, in separate estimates.
„aid
Mr. WARD finally consented to withdraw the estimate:— •
it was accordingly withdrawn.
Ile then moved. that,Xl2l;B Bs. ad. be granted to his
lfaj-
for 57 master gunners and officers stationed in garrisons 3ny
4y
batteries.—Agreed to. 44,030 13s. Bd. was proposed for,r;o4
of the Engineers of Great Britain,and Jeclanht, consiStin,
officers, excepting 12 officers serving in Ireland and paid' Te,;,-11
Mr. HUME objected to the above, alleging that the It, °(,)i
Engineers were appointed to do duty where there was no au •
124 had extra half-pay and other advantages.
Colonel FRANKLIN stated that Engineer Officers Wilincge
peculiar duty to perform were not overpaid by the allelF3
they received.
' Mr. HUME said he principally complained that se
ver3l
were employed at Gravesend, where they had nothing to do..
Sir It. wILSQN said Officers of Engineers were
all they receive.
SO'
The Estiniate was then voted; as were X 24,378,-for the •A
-peps and Miners;
lia;ryna°
• Mr. P. MOORE' then rose, and moved that the C • -
do report progress.
Mr. BROGDEN accordi,iglv left the Chair.
be re'
The House resumed, and the Report was p. &Ted to
ceived:on Monday. • *a rot
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mo
the House, at its rising, adjourn to Monday..e.-Agreed to. „Iv;
The other Orders of the'Day were 'then disposed of, and
House adjourned at ONE O'CL 0 Clt 043 .;\ IPT;lnik
intitled