The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-30 00:00:00

EVENI NG, APRIL 30, 1844.-

importance than any other, that he must at once advert
to it, with the view of expressing his great regret at
whst he had heard. It was announced. by:Government

that they were prepared to take steps of a perfectly
novel charaetei in the history of the commerce of this
country—namely, to put a commercial ban upon great
nations intimately connected with this country by ties
of commerce, by prescribing articles of their growth.
He thought that the veil that had been thrown over all
this was so transparent that they would lose all credit
with foreign nations, and they would consider that the
Government and the House were desecrating the claims
to humanity which this country had so long possessed.
He thought they were ,opening the door to an 'endless
system of subterfuge and fraudulent trade, and thereby

.
ratsmg the hostility of many countries to this. Ife
trusted, as the question of the sugar duties would now

be most importaant, it would be iiiroduced at that period

of the session when it could be properly discussed-. He
thought the present moment was ill selected for the
. . .

purpose of establishing differential duties with respect
to the commodities of certain nations: Added to

his, had they not heard, from the first Minister

of the Crown the other night, that a treaty had been
signed between two of the greatest manufacturing coun-
tries in the world—the United States and the Zollverein

of Germany—the effect of which would be to exclude

British -minufactures from the United States? The

Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by asking the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer when he would bring on the
sugar duties ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should bring them forward on an early day, but he could
not then state when it would be.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY stated his satisfaction at
the statements` made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
with respect to the repeal of the duties on wool. "The
repeal of the duty would inflict no injury on any inte-
rest in the country.
Mr. P. M. STEWART thought although the pro-
position of the Government was most cautious, the peo-
ple would be most disappointed with the statements of
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had said they had a
surplus of 2,500,000/. ; and for those who were expect-
ing to be the recipients of his bounty, what had he
Why he had begun with bottles, went to vinegar, and
ended with wool ; but why had cotton been forgotten ?
He thought the manufacturers of the country bad a
great right to complain of that. Nothing had been said,
and nothing had been done upon it ; and the result
would be, that the greatest dissatisfaction would be ex-
pressed in the country, in consequence of such a slight,
as it was generally felt that that ought to have been
the first article on which the duty should be reduced.
He thought the time' had now come when the sugar
duties ought to be considered, and when the colonies of
this country should be put upon the same footing as the
colonies of other countries. The colonies of this coun-
try were crippled, and the most ridiculous regulations
were made in the Colonial-office with respect to the
removal of workmen from one colony to another ; but
his Noble Friend, the late Secretary of State for the Co-
lonies, had introduced some regulations which might be
looked upon as a model for the regulation of labour.
There seemed, however, to be a secret influence in the
Colonial-office against the proper management of the
"colonies, for regulations had been made there that were
most uncalled for, regulations which were anti-colonial ;
in short, there seemed to be a feeling in the Colonial Se-
cretary's office that was hardly to be accounted for.
The first regulation was one that no agreement made
out of a colony should be binding. That was obliged to
be relaxed with regard to European workmen. Another
was, that such agreements should not be binding upon
the blacks, and that, too, was relaxed by the regulation
that in such cases the deed of agreement should. be rati-
fied before officers appointed for that purpose. But not
one of these officers had been appointed, and 'the conse-
quence was, that no labour could be effectually imported
into the colonies. In some of the islands there were
abundant crops, and not enough labourers to gather
them. The regulation of the sugar duties was a subject
forced on the attention of the House; and ought
to be • gone into in a different manner.—
(Hear.) But the Government had propounded
.this Budget, Which was of itself a great disturbing in-
fluence in colonial property, and the whole question
must be discussed. His object in rising was what he
saw he should effect—that of calling up his No-
ble Friend—(a laugh)—and putting him on his mettle
w th regard to the proceedings at the Colonial-office. If
that Noble Lord would take the subject in hand, and
put the Colonies in a fair position with regard to la-
bour, they would not shrink from competition with
any foreign colony whatever. After this was effected,
they might do what they pleased with the sugar duties;
for the colonies would be able to beat the world
in competition, if they only had an open chance
of 'obtaining labour. He hoped the House would agree
with him in thinking that they were entitled in the pre-
sent state of the colonies to have no unnecessary restric-
tions thrown in the way of a free supply of labourers,
who would themselves be benefitted by settling, while
their presence was most necessary to the colonies them-
selves.
Lord STANLEY said that every one must feel
the inconvenience of entering into the whole of this ques-
tion in a discussion on the Budget. But after the ob-
servations .of the Right Hon. Gentleman it was impos-
sible that he could remain wholly silent. lie was not
sorry, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had given
him the opportunity of entering upon the subject.
There was an entire difference of opinion between him-
self and the Right Hon. Gentleman on this question,
though he recollected the time when the Right Hon.
Member entertained a very different opinion himself on
the subject—(Mr. P. M. Stewart—" Neverl")—but with.
that, of course, he had nothing. to do. He was very
happy to be enabled to say that, in his judgment, so far
from the Budget acting as a discouragement to the West
Indian colonies, with regard to tampering with the
sugar duties, he thought the statement of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was well qualified
and calculated to reassure the colonies with respect
to the steadiness of the intentions of the Govern-
, meet in the principle on which they meant to deal
with the question of colonial protection. Throughout
all the discussions that had taken place, the Govern-
ment did not so much contend for colonial protection as
they had contended for the protection of free grown
sugar over that produced by slave labour. It had been
asserted by several Hon. Gentlemen, that they now for
the first time placed upon record a resolution declaratory
of the distinction between slave-raised and free-grown
sugar; the Government was not prepared to give the
colonies more than the protection of a fair differential
duty in. favour of free labour produce, against thatwhich
might fairly enter into competition with them, as
being also raised by free labour. But the Government
was prepared at all risks to maintain a positive
distinction and difference in favour of the produce of free
labour, against that of slave labour,—against that raised

by a Syaem which was encouragement to the slave
trade and slavery. He trusted that this resolution, for
the first time announced,would showthe colonies that they
had to compete at once, though not on unfavourable
terms, with a limited amount of produce which was raised
by free labour, but that at the same time it was the in-
tention of the Government to protect them against those
who had the advantage over them, which was obtained
from the unrighteous source of slavery, and
which it was the intention of the Govern-

ment ,by every means to discourage and put down.
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. P. M. Stewart) told
the Committee that the foolish regulations of the Colonial-
office alone prevented the colonies from competing with
every part of the world. He told them that the Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell) who preceded him (Lord
Stanley) iirthe Colonial.offic,e—anfl of whoie labours' he
allyayts spoke with the highest respect—that-respect due
to hid talents anit hi,s chnracteihad laid 'down for the
'West Indies a Series of 'regnititiocia Whidr weiv " model
regulations," as Lo the importation .of labour into the
colonies. The Right lion. Gentlenian certainly
could not have read those regulations, for
every step that had been taken by the
Colonial-office since the retirement .of that
Noble Lord from it, had been directed to the removal
of restrictions, the reduction of impediments, and giving
facilities to the intercourse between the West Indian
colonies and Africa. He would defy the Right Hon.
Gentleman to point out a single district of Africa, to
the intercourse of which with the West Indies, the dif-
ficulties had been increased, or as to which the facilities
of that intercourse had not been enlarged, since he (Lord
Stanley) succeeded to the Colonial-office. He took no
credit for this ; but he must say, it was not fair to talk
of the regulations of the Colonial-office having impeded
this importation and intercourse, when their course
had been to reduce the restrictions and increase
the facilities given by the regulations. But these regu-
lations with respect to the Coast of Africa—where
were they all ? He must beg the attention of the
Right Hon. Gentlemen ; he had chosen to make a sud-
den attack upon him, and he must beg him to listen to
his answer.—:(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentle-
man talked of the restrictions of the immigration of the
Hill Coolies from India—restrictions imposed bywhom?
Not by him.—(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that last year,
and the year before, he (Lord Stanley) was somewhat
suddenly attacked by the Hon. Member below the Right
Hon. Gentleman, for having done away with some of
the restrictions to the emigration of these Coolies—not to
a British colony, and which emigration had been absolutely
prohibited by the Government, whose model regulations
the Right Hon. Gentleman was so prepared o vaunt.
The emigration of those Coolies was narrowly watched
and bitterly attacked, by the Hon. Gentleman on the
other side ; it was himself who-worked the first step to•
wards removing the restrictions on the emigration of the
Coolies ; he knew what reasonable apprehensions there
were of the abuses that might arise from .this emigra-
tion,. and he referred the subject to the Governor-
General of India, to - say whether the same
emigration might be permitted to the West
Indies that was permitted to the Mauritius, and
facilities for which had been afforded by the
present Government for the first time. But he also
talked of the impediments to the emigration of Chinese
labourers; was that owing to the late Government of
model regulations, or to that invisible influence at the
Colonial-office which it was stated thwarted and over-
threw these improvements? It was in the present year
that permission was given to import immigrants from
China, not Chinese themselves, but labourers from
Singapore and the neighbourine districts, under special
regulations, into the Wrest Indies. For the first time
in the present year, then; the restrictions
to the emigration of Coolies had been re-
aioved and yet the Right
.Hon. Gentleman
turned round and charged them with preventing the im-
portation of free 'labour into the West Indian colonies,
and by that means stinting the natural capacities of these
colonies. The Right Hon. Member spoke as if restri&
tions on the importation of free labour to the West In-
dies from any part of the world were inexistence. Thefe
was no law that-he knew of, except in India, which pre.
vented any one going to the West Indian colonies, ex-
cept the restrictions against these people making
agreements at a -distance, when they could not
tell the. value "of their labour, and which
agreements Might, - being made for a - long. term,

amount to virtual slavery.: Those -engagements might

be the source of very great dissatisfactiCMand discontent
in the minds of the labourers. That such an emigration
might not be made and paid for out of the public funds,
these restrictions were imposed, but beyond these he
knew of no others. But these regulations were in course
of relaxation, and had been already much relaxed, Ile
w ould venture to tell the Right Hon. Gentleman that as
far as the present Government was concerned, the
course it had taken was not one of restriction, but
one of relaxation and remission, of relaxations prudent
indeed, and in conformity with what was known to he
the opinion of the community, and these restrictions
would be limited only by the necessity of such prohibi-
tions as should prevent much unfounded speculation, as
to the advantages to be gained by such immigration.
The whole course of the proceedings of the Government
had been, as it would continue to be, that of removing all
restrictions which were felt to be uncalled for on the
importation of labour into the colonies from all parts of
the world. _

Mr. P. M. STEWART explained. He was sorry
that he had so excited- the Noble Lord on this question

—(A laugh)—but having made this apology, he must
say this—that the charge of the Noble Lord of his
_ _

having changed his opinions on this- question was un-
founded. The Noble Lord forgot the battles in which
they both fought, side by side, together on:this question;
he forgot that he (Mr. Stewart) had sem hand in
framing the Act on the subject. He must beg the
Noble Lord to refresh his memory on this
point. He had never swerved from his prin-
ciples. The Noble Lord had made this a party
question, when he (Mr. Stewart) wished to make it
Only a colonial question. The regulations he had re-
ferred to, were those containejt in the letter of the Noble
Lord the Member for Londmilo the Governor of Sierra

Leone, and which was considered by the colonists as -a
model of instructions ' • he maintained and repeated his
assertion, that every. Minister at the Colonial-office was
subjected to an influence, by which they were made
mere tools and puppets—(Hear, hear)—and he wished
that the Noble Lord would apply. his own good sense
to the question, so that these restrictions might be re-
moved, and of which some hope had been this night held
out to them.

Lord STANLEY denied that ho had made it a

party question, and contended that he had• spoken-
of the Noble Lord with the greatest respect.
He stated, and he now repeated, that those model regula-
tions for the coast of Africa ought to be in the. main
acted upon ; and ever since, whatever was done, was

done in the, way of relaxing the restrictions. The Hon.
Gentleman repeated an accusation with regard to some
secret influence in the Colonial-office. Now he did not
believe that the Noble Lord, whom he succeeded .in the
Colonial-office would allow his judgment to be set,
aside by any secret influence—(A laugh)—and for him-
self he could only say this, that no paper passed through
the Colonial-office of any kind which did not come under
his own eye and was examined by him ; and with regard
to the particular question of immigration into the West
Indies, since he had the honour of being in the Colonial-
office, he gave the most constant and unrestricted atten-
tion to the question and had examined every part of it,
and he ventured to add that the attention which he gave
to the subject was not inferior to that which was given
to it by the Noble Lord.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that his Hon. Friend
was quite justified in putting the questions on the sub-
ject, as the reduction of the sugar duties had been
brought before the House by the Right lion. Gentle-
man, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Lord John
Russell) had, he hoped, exercised his own judgment
during the time he held the office of Colonial Secretary,
and endeavoured to give attention to any subject that
came before him ; and he was not conscious, though he
felt great obligations for the very great informa-
tion which was afforded him, and felt respect for the
abilities which several gentlemen in that office possessed
—(Hear, hear)—yet when he reviewed all the circum-
stances in any case which came before him, he applied
his own judgment, and yielded to it in the decisions
which he made. With regard to the question of
emi-
gration from Africa, he wrote a dispatch to the Governor
of Sierra Leone on the subject, containing certain regu-
lations. Those regulations were intended rather as
temporary regulations, and he was glad to hear
from the Noble Lord that he'diminished the restrictions
because his view was, considering that emigration
had been totally prohibited before, it was proper to at-
tempt emigration with Caution, and to put many restric-
tions on it which might, from time to time, as experience
dictated, be diminished and relaxed ; and that was the
view which the Noble Lord took of his duty, and the
question as it at present stood. With regard to the sub-
ject of the introduction of Coolies into the Mauritius, he
was surprised at the Noble Lord's statement, because the
Noble Lord said more than once that the pre-
sent Government first introduced Coolies into
the British colonies. Lord Glenelg proposed to the
colonies an order in Council which would admit Coolies

into the colonies of the Crown ' • but that order was
opposed and rendered null by the House of Lords. The
present Government concurred in the view taken by the
House of Lords. He (Lord John Ru: sell) attempted
again the subject of emigration into the Mauritius, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, when he (Lord John Russell)
stated that such was his intention, said that the best
mode of bringing. the question to an issue was to bring
'a clause by Bill into the House._ He (Lord J. Russell)
. .

introduced it, and then the Noble Lord (Stanley) and the
Right Hon. Gentleman, and others who sat opposite,
came down and defeated him by the help of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Cork, and several other gen-
-tlemen in the House who were interested in the subject.
—(Hear, hear.) He was very glad that they afterwards
changed their minds on the subject and came to agree
with him, but he knew the were anxious at the time to
get a majority against the -then Government, and were
not very scrupulous what the subject was.—(Cheers.)
The introduction of Coolies into the Mauritius served
Them as well as any other.—(Cheers.) He should not
'have referred to this, but that the Noble Lord boasted
that he was one of a Government which had for the first
time introduced Coolies into the Manritius, and that
they were able to do so. No doubt they were, because
when he (Lord John Russell) introduced the subject
they were the chief opponents to the measure, and all
the obstructions came from them.—(Cheers.) But they
now received every facility to carry, in fact, the
measure of their predecessors.—(Cheers.) This was a
sort of episode to the main subject in discussion. With
' regard to the minor subject, he would at once allude to
that part of it which referred to the introduction of
foreign sugar, and which was so nearly connected with
the subject he had just left. He quite agreed with all
the objections made by his Hon. Friend near him, that
if the Government made up their minds to allow the in•
troduction of foreign sugar, it was far better for them to
say at once they would admit foreign sugar from
whatever colony it might come than attempt
to make any distinction.—(Cheers.) It was vicious
in principle, and would be found impracticable
in its result.—(Cheers.) As to its being vicious in
principle he wanted no other proof than the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
because after he stated his intention to exclude the
sugar of Brazil, he went on to say that it was from no
hostile feeling towards the Brazils, because he said the
Government had no intention to exclude coffee from
Brazil. Why, he could not understand this strange and
very particular morality. (Cheers, and laughter.)
They looked with horror at slave grown sugar, but they
had no scruples with regard to slave grown
coffee.—(Loud cheers.) What made them im-
moral if they introduced slave grown sugar and
and laudable if they introduced slave grown cofee ?
(Laughter.) They might say that the labour required
fdr the "cultivation of coffee' Was lighter than that-which
Has required for'the CuttiOtiori of siigar; lint Certainly
this could not be the reason, because-what they- wished
to discourage was the .§lave trace' and slavery, and that.
existed in the same degree whether the slave was em-
ployed in the cultivation of sugar or coffee.—(Hear.) It
was a principle very objectionable to make distinctions
between States allowing slavery, and those which would
not allow slavery, but far more objectionable to make a
dfitinction between the different employments in which
slaves were engaged, and to make tariffs of duties accord-
iug
.to the mode in which slaves were employed.
This would- be most intolerable—(Hear, hear)—and
their morality would become the plague and nuisance of
the world—(Cheers)—if they thus interfered with all
kinds of labour in foreign countries.—(As to the practi-
cability of the scheme, they would have sugar from the
Havannah with forged certificates and papers from New
Orleans and other States of North America.—(Hear,
hear.) All this would happen. It was so with regard
to Coffee, as was proved before the Import Duties Com-
mittee, of which his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) was
Chairman. If they introduced new regulations with re-
gard to sugar, what was to prevent persons from sending
sugar to the Cape of Good Hope, and introduce it as
coming from the possessions of the Dutch? —(Hear, hear.)
Then, again, with regard to competition with the West
Indies, it could not much matter to them which of the
two principles they should adopt ; because, as the
Right Hon. Gentleman stated, 200,000 tons was about
the amount introduced from all the British possessions,
90,000 loos ui'natsroadbuocuttiotnheb
and
ddrr ithecli
yt I eryo
pwo
used.o (1
He could conceive nothing less but that they introduced
this knowing it could not hold.—(Hear, hear.) By in-
yamthorltaiwvh
troducing this foreign sugar, they would thereby
to . a certain degree benefit the consumer in this
country, but they would find their regulations would not
stand in practice, and having made one step they would
make a last step. and would be obliged to introduce the
Bill which he introduced himself in 1841—(Cheers and
Oh, oh")--with this differenee, that instead of 245. and
365. they would have 245. and 345.
useful to
a-
He foresaw that
would be the end as clearly as possible.(llear, hear)
The distinction they now proposed might
them—it might serve to cover their inconsistencybe
for
year. or two--(Loud cheers)—but depend on it in
the end they would find. this_ unnatural and
impracticable plan was .only fit to be replaced
by the clear and simple rule of doing away with the
high differential duty on foreignths.ugar. There was
to
on announcing ounci .
glBre4a2t, inacnodnvietnivrenacse great principle in
brought forwardls with proper
caution.—(Laughter.)
The application of those prin-
ciples was most convenient, as well as great, because
certain of
them were applied, in 1842, to'ct certain num-
ber of articles. To others they were not applied ; they
were applied to timber, and would be applied to sugar
and then to corn.—(Laud cheers.) The Right lion.
Gentleman might say--" Recollect what I told you
in 1842 ; recollect I said the true principle was
to buy in the cheapest market, and to sell in the
dearest. I stated that principle in perfect consistency.
I have waited for an opportunity.—(Laughter.) That
opportunity has now arrived. I applied it then. I
applied it..n 1842 to onion seed--(Laughter and cheers)
—I applied it to spices--(Laughter)—and to herrings
--(Laughter.) You may remember how strictly I
applied it to herrings."—(Loud laughter.) In a year
or two this principle would be again applied in the most
,strict manner, to faciliiate, according to the.maxims of
, the greatest philosophers, to the food of the people—

(Cheers.) With regard to the propositions made to
the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
he must congratulate him on the surplus he was able to
announce. It was gratifying to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and to the country, and it must be owned it
pladed :the country in a proud and high position—
(Cheers)--to have such a considerable surplus of revenue
over expenditure, and this he thought, without atilt
agreeing in the criticisms which were made upon the
military establishments of the country. He did not
think they ought every year to keep up the same
amount of expenditure, but with regard to the present
year he *thought the vote of the House was not
beyond what was necessary.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Ilis Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Portsmouth,
stated that he understood from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's " statement that it was his intention to keep up
the income-tax during the- five years originally men-
tioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. reel), and
if such was the intention of the Government the better
course would be to make larger reductions in the pre-
sent year. He (Lord J. Russell) certainly thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
had better take one of two courses. If the Right
Honourable Gentleman thought it probable .tho
income-tax would be taken off next year,
and that that was the best thing for the public
welfare, he was quite right in taking off but a small
amount of taxatioh in the present year. He could.not
help thinking that Government must have a strong opi-
nion on the subject, knowing the wants of the country,
and the present state
.of the finances. Bet if, on the
other hand, they thought it most probable they would
continue the income-tax for two years, it would be -beater
to propose such reductions as would be of use tto the
trade and industry of the country in the present
year rather • than postpone them till next' year.
He said that even with a view to the income-tax. Be-

cause if that reduction were proposed in the present
year, we might hope in the course of three years from
this time the revenue would have so far recovered, that
there would be no doubt about the repeal of the income-
tax. Whereas if next year the Right Hon. Gentleman
would say that, upon the whole, it was necessary to con-
tinue the income-tax two other years, and then should
propose other reductions; the public would have lost a year
of increased consumption at a lower price of tte articles,
and the revenue would only have two years instead of
three to recover itself. He thought, for both those rea-
sons, if the Government had at all made up their minds,
they would have taken a better eourse in deciding in
the present year whether the reduction was to take
place. He was surd the Right Hon. Gentleman had
done nothing that was at all dangerdus to the country
in the reductions he had proposed. With regard to
wool, he had much gratified the manufacturers of York-
shire ; and with regard to coffee, he had at least shown
that the principle of the tariff of 1842 was not aban-
doned. He hoped as soon as the Right Hon. Gentleman
could make up his mind to it, they would have an enlarge-
ment of the principle of the tariff of 1842 and greater
approximation to the principles of free trade.
Col. SIBTHORP congratulated the House and the
country on the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though it might not
meet with the entire approbation of the Noble Lord
(J. Russell) opposite, and the Hon. Member for Taunton
(Mr. Labouchere), who worked together in regular
harness—when one pulled the other pulled, and when
one gibbed the other gibbed.—(Laughter.) The late
Administration were very good at promises ; for ten
years together they invariably promised everything.
Prosperity was coming always, and everything was cut
and dry for bringing about success in their proposed
plans, but still nothing was done ; until the people
would at last no longer bear their promises, and they
turned them out never to come back again. He (Col. S.)
highly approved of the proposed reduction of the
duty ,on marine insurance. It was one of the most
oppressive taxes, inasmuch as it was a tax upon prudence.
When the present Lord Bexley was Chancellor of the
Exchequer, Mr. Barber Beaumont sought to have the
duty on fire-insurance reduced, as the removal of such a
duty would tend to encourage prudence, and he (Colonel
Sibthorp) was glad to find the principle now brought
into operation. He was sure that the reduction would
rather add to than diminish, the revenue derived from
this source, and he was so convinced of that
that on one occasion he had himself offered, if
a reduction were made, to be answerable for
the deficiency.—(A. laugh.) With respect to
other reductions which had been made in the
tariff; he thought it but justice to the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir Robert Peel), to state, that he had ascer-
tained from his own (Col. Sibthorp's) agent, who was
one of the largest farmers in the county of Lincoln, that
at the great annual fair in April held in that county—
which was one of the greatest fairs in the United King-
dom—there had been a general improvement in the sale
of stock. That was a satisfactory announcement., and it
was but common justice to the-Right Hon. Baronet to
make it.—(A laugh.) He congratulated the House and
the country on the satisfactory statement of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. It would teach the Hon. Gen-
tleman oppositp a long lesson of repentance, and they
would sit upon the stool of repentance all their lives.

Ma. MARK.PHILIPS did not feel any jealousy at
the success of the application of the principles of free
trade by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He heartily re-
joiced that a step had been made in the right direction
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that the country
would be relieved from the weight of some burdens that
pressed upon the poor. When they considered the
enormous extent of the duty on raw cotton, and the dis-
advantages which that duty placed upon all engaged in
that important branch of manufacture, he trusted he
would be excused if he pleaded the claim of the manu-
facturers t) have the duty reduced. The consumption
at present was 400,000 bales of cotton per
annum, and the duty imposed on that
amount was saved to our foreign rivals.
It must be recollected that we came into competition
with foreigners in the foreign market under the disad-
vantages which the payment of that enormous amount
of duty caused, for the proportion of our manufactures
consumed in this country was but comparatively small.
We had nothing to throw away or give to our foreign
rivals, and he knew of no other duty which could be re-
duced with so much advantage to the country than this
duty on the raw material of cotton manufacture.
The duty was imposed when the duty on
printed calicoes was taken off. It was imposed as a sort
of compromise for the removal of the othea duty ; but
now that there was a surplus in the revenue they ought
to remove a duty which was so injurious in its operation as
this. We were manufacturing cotton at a greater dis-
advantage than the , Americans by 20 per cent. If
we were to have the price of the raw material
raised against us, our foreign trade would mate-
rially lessen, and it therefore became a matter of im-
portance to reduce this duty as much as possible.
There were those who believed, that if this duty were
remitted, the Americans would add to the cost of the
raw material. He was not of that number, and he
strongly recommended the Government to sweep away
the duty at once in order to give this important branch
of industry as full and free a scope as possible. He
congratulated the House on the alteration
which bad been proposed in the duty on
marine insurances. He had sometimes observed
s
t eeepriai
obliged thatl3, d
to,
s theansede
other
esr
insurances
rhpaalnancetees
ss ofnal
t h foreignotuh i
although
u
countryNci
o'l t
countries
t hadgreat ei
na
instead
f
been
ohe had yet to learn that the merchants of foreign coun-
tries had in that respect manifested a higher degree of
honour than those of our own. He desired to see a ge-
neral reduction of the duties on insurances. He
thought the present law was such as often to indace
parties to run risks which they were not war-
ranted in doing,. and he thought the revenue was
such as fairly to allow of extensive alteration. He
hailed with great delight the proposed reduction of the
duty on glass, a reduction which was rendered neces-
sary by the' competition of this country with Bohemia
and other countries on the Continent. With respect to
the article of coffee, though he could not but express his
approbation of a reduction of the duty on
t
any great article of consumption, he could
understand why all the morality of the country should
settle in the sugar basin, and be dissipated in the coffee_no
pot.—(Laughter) lie could see no morality
and
to
d
consistency in the course pursued
with
reference
huhumanitysugar. The sooner all these props of
all, were
which, in reality, was no humanity atit
be f
got rid cf, the better would,
Atep whic or
h
the country at large. For ever}
they took in the wrong direction, they would find _
whom it was
them-
selves retaliated upon by. that country with
their intereit to maintain the closest intercourse. It
was not for him to pledge himself as to the course which
he would pursue with respect to the income tax, if such
a remission ,of duties were to take place as to
render it necessary to continue that tax.
He' had expressed his opinion to his constituents
in favour of a property-tax as that which pressed least
on the working classes; but he
thought that the surplus
on hand might be applied to the remission of deities with
great advantage to the country at large.
Sir 11. DOUGLAS expressed his satisfaction at the
reduction of the duty on currants—a satisfaction which
was increased by his long connexion with those islands.
Mr. C. WOOD said he was convinced that from the
stimulus which would be given by the remission of the
duty on wool in the manufacturing districts, many would
reap a rich harvest. If they were not able now to
judge of the effect of .the reduction which had taken
place in 1842, they could not be able to judge of what
the effect would be in five years.
Lord HOWICK thought there was good reason to
complain of the conduct of the Government in respect
to, the export duty upon coals. It had materially
affected a very important branch of trade, and he thought
they were not justified in retaining that duty with such
an excess of revenue above expenditure.
Captain PECHELL was one of those who ware dis-
satisfied with the Budget. He thought that with so
large a surplus the Government ought to hale taken off
the window-tax.—(l.lear, hear.)
An Hox. MEMBER begged to ask the Right llon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the instalments of
the compensation from China had been paid.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said that
the instalments had been duly park at the stipulated

times.
...4bectiauesasr:thcerr.e)
Mr. lIINDLEY was rejoiced that there was .such a
troAm thosefte w
After
as few words from Lord HARRY VANE,
surplus of rebv(e)i,iiuper,e
nbneds t tahbel e mt
rle) e asroi
The resolution was agreed to.
The House then resumed, the resolution was brought
up, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
THIS' FACTORIES BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM postponed till Friday the Order or
the Day on the Factories Bill.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD gave notice that he would, on
Friday, upon the motion for going into Committee upon
the Factories Bill, call the attention of the House to a
petition from Belfast against the Bill.
BAILIFFS OF INFERIOR COURTS BILL.
The Bailiffs of Inferior Courts Bill was read a third
time and passed.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
Sir J. GRAHAM (for Sir George Grey) moved for
returns relating to the Ecclesiastical Courts.—Agreed to
BANK CHARTER.

Sir G. CLERK moved that the Bank Charter Acts be
laid on the table.—Agreed to.
The RIGHT HON. BARONET then gave notice, that on
Monday next his Right Hon. Friend would move that
the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the
whole House, for the purpose of taking the question of
the Bank Charter into consideration.
The remaining orders of the day having been disposed
of, the House adjourned at a Quarter before Twelve.

HOUSE OF LORDS, April 29.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool.
sack shortly before Five o'Clock.
The Earl of ROSEBERY presented two petitions
against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill.
The Marquis of NOE,MANBY presented a peti-
tion from Newtown Limavady, in the North of Ire-
land, praying the House would adopt some measures
to legalise marriages by Presbyterian ministers.
The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition
against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.
Lord BEAUMONT laid upon the table a Bill for
the purpose of removing certain disabilities which
pressed upon Roman Catholics in the case of grants
being made to them for corporate purposes.
The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be

printed.
RECAL OF LORD ELUNBOROUGH.
Lord COLCHESTER—I take the liberty of asking a
question of the Noble Duke below me, relating to a
subject of great importance, which has excited much
surprise in the public mind within the last two days.
The recal of the Governor. General of India was an-
nounced to your Lordships on Friday, and it was at the
same time stated that it had not met with the approba-
tion of her Majesty's Ministers. I will take the liberty
of now asking, whether the communication made by the
Board of Directors to her Majesty's Government was
accompanied by any reasons for recalling the Governor-
General ? I will further take the liberty of asking the
Noble Duke, if he has no objection, to state to the
House what were those reasons, if there were any, and,
further, whether the Court of Directors had sufficient
authority for the step they had taken ?
The Duke of WELLINGTON—I regret that my
Noble Friend the President :of the Boar of Control
should be absent from his.place, on account of indispo-
sition. In relation to the Noble Lord's questions, I be-
lieve one has been put with the same object in another
place, and I am glad that I am enabled to answer it.
place,
is no doubt whatever, my Lord, that the Court of
Directors have stated reasons for the measure which they
have adopted, which reasons have not been concurred in
by her Majesty's Government. Those reasons have not
been considered valid, and, therefore, her Majesty's Go-
vernment have not concurred in the measure adopted—
nay more, my Lords, I will add, in answer to the
last part of the Noble Lord's question, that her Ma-
jesty's Government did remonstrate against the mea-
sure proposed to be adapted by the Court of Directors,
and the resolution of recalling Lord Ellenborough from
the office of Governor-General of India. I must add
that there can be no doubt whatever—although a doubt
was expressed by a very great authority, my Noble and
Learned Friend opposite—of the legal right of the
Court of Directors to recal the Governor-General;which
right is conferred upon that body by statute. I imagine
it has existed at all times since 1784, but it was con-
ferred particularly by the law passed in the year 1813,
which has been replaced by the law passed under the
auspices of my Noble and Learned Friend in 1833, the
3d and 4th William IV. That law gives the Court the
undoubted right to recal the Governor-General. But,
my Lords, I conceive that that right is one which that
body is bound to exercise with discretion—(Hear, hear)
—as all bodies and all individuals invested with extra-
ordinary powers by the provisions of law are bound to
exercise such powers with discretion. Now, my Lords,
I venture to submit to your Lordships, as the opinion of
an individual who has had some experience in these
matters, that this exercise of power, to say the least of it,
is not a discreet exercise of power. My Lords, the
Court of Directors has that power—it has the power of
nominating a successor to the noble person who is thus
recalled ; but it has no other power whatever, as your
Lordships will find on examining the law, excepting
under the direction and control of the Board of Com-
missioners, of which my Noble Friend, who is now
absent, happens to be at the head, and for the acts
of which Board her Majesty's Government are respon-
sible. Under these circumstances, my Lords, I venture
to say, and it is, I think, the least that can be said of
it—that it is not a discreet act of authority to recal from
power, and from such a situation as that i:, an officer
who has been in his high office but little more than two
years, and who has given satisfaction to those by whom
he was instructed and employed, whose acts have been
concurred in and sanctioned in every instance—to recal
that officer suddenly, making no provision for the per-
formance of the great duties which devolve upon the Go-
vernor-General in that country—to recal that officer,
who was confided in by the Government, who were re-
sponsible for the condition of public affairs, without
the concurrence of that Government, is, my Lords, an
act, to say the least of it, which cannot be called a dis-
creet exercise of the power with which that body is in-
vested. My Lords, Ido not mean to refer to anything
on this occasion which is not notorious and is not in the
Act of Parliament ; but I bcg your Lordships to ob-
serve, that the body which has carried into execution
this act, which I must call an act of indiscretion, at least
---I say, at least, I call it an act of indiscretion—this
body, as your Lordships, by looking at the Act of Parlia-
ment, will see, has no knowledge whatever of the in-
structions under which this officer is acting.—(Hear,
hear.) They have stated reasons for withdrawing him,
founded, of course, on his public conduct—but as a body,
those who have proposed it, except those who are acting
on the Secret Committee, have no knowledge whatever
of the instructions under which he has been acting, or
of the events which have taken place in that country,
excepting what has been in the general knowledge
of this and the other House of Parliament, and
the whole public of this country and the world.
And yet, my Lords, those gentlemen, pretending their re•
sponsibility, having had no share whatever in giving
this officer instructions, having had no knowledge, as
the Act of Parliament will show they are bound to have
none, of the instructions that have been sent him, pro-
nounce their judgment upon his conduct and recal him,
thus depriving the Government of that country of the
best instrument—the best instrument, I say it again—
that they could find to carry on the duties of that great
office, and making no provision whatever, nor proposing
any, except that there should be another Governor-
General, for the performance of those duties, and for
satisfying the responsibility of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. As I have said so much on this subject, in
order to illustrate the indiscretion of this act—the indis-
cretion, I say—l will just go a little further. My Lords,
although I believe that this is the first time in the his-
tory of the government of India that this measure of
recal by the Court of Directors had been on the point of
being carried into execution, and will be carried into ex-
ecution, it has more than once been in contemplation,
but always been withdrawn, upon the advice and remon-
strance of the Minister of the day ; and, my Lords, it
is the fact that it had been in contemplation by the
same gentlemen, in respect to this very Governor-Gene-
ral in the course of the last twelve months, and they
were prevailed upon to withdraw their resolution and not
to proceed to determine his recal. My Lords, this was
previous to the late great operation, of which we have
all read with so much satisfaction, in Gwalior—an opera-
tion which I am sure your Lordships will have perceived,
from a perusal of the reports which have been made, must
have been founded upon the most just and discrimi-
nate measures adopted by the Government for the
equipment, the support, and the maintenance of the
armies which were to be put into the field under the di-
rection and superintendence of the Government. We
all must have seen that the 'preparations made, not only
fur the support and maintenance of the troops in the
field, but for their military communications, whatever
might be the course of the operations, for their advance
and retreat, and, in short, all that could tend to their
success, were amply provided for. Well then, my Lords,
what would have occurred if the Court had thought
proper to recal that Noble Lord six or eight months ago,
when they had the measure in contemplation ? What
would have become of the great operation carried on,
as I said, under the superior management and direction
of my Noble Friend the Governor-General ? Why,
my Lords, it must have been left to be carried on by
the gentlemen who happened to be senior member
of Cie council, a very respectable gentleman, I doubt
not, but -eithout the reculiar experience and talents in
that very branch of the: government as respects the
equipment, manegement, and superior direction of
armies. It would have been left to be carried on in that
way and I leave your Lordships to judge of what the
situation of the Government in India would have been
if
that expedition had failed, and such an army as
we have seem described in one of the blue books
on your table had remained in existence, threat-
ened, as we were at the same moment, by a si-
milar body on the north-west frontiers,i' with the pro-
vince of Siirle still unsettled, and taat army destroyed,
as it has been, under the superiorthe direction of my
Noble Friend, within reach of communicationslse be-
tween our army employed on the northwest the Bengal provinces. Why, my Lords,
frontierh
been
would have been imminent, anl this Wotulde havedan-
been the consequence of the recal of my Noble Friend
six or eight months ago, which was in contemplation,
and was only prevented by representations being made
to those who have now committed that gross indiscre-
tion of recalling the Noble Lord. It was prevented only
by the representations made to those gentlemen of the
dangers which would ensue to the public interest from
the measures which they were about to adopt, the dan-
gers resulting from the impossibility that they would be
ale!e to provide for events which mo I probably would
occur it they recalled their officer without the consent of
ker Majesty's Government, who would thus be deprived
of the instrument in their hands best fited for car this
their policy into execution, while the Directors in this
country must be unable to direct the mans in existence
for securing the safety of their troops, for guarding
their frontier, for upholding the honour of her Majesty's
arms, and the security of our vast dominion in that part
of the world. I say again, as I have said before, and I
sty the least of it when I pronounce it to be the most
indiscreet exercise of power that I have heard carried
into execution by any body who possessed the power
since I have had a knowledge of public affairs, which I
am
sorry to say has now been for about fifty years.
Lord BROUGHAM—As my Noble Friend has refer-
red to me, I beg to set him right in his supposition that I
questioned the legality of the act of the Court of Direc-
tors. My Lords, I did not question it ; I was quite
aware that there was, by the strict letter of the law, an
independent power given, in very ample terms, to the
Directors to recal any officers at their will and pleasure
—the words are, "at their own pleasure." But I ven-
tured to express, to say the least of it, my doubts

whether any law so absurd as that had ever been suffered
to exist on the statute-book of any rational people, be-
cause, as my Noble Friend has justly stated, while three
only of the twenty-four Directors are by law allowed to
know the instructions sent out, under the sanction of a
solemn oath not to communicate them to any of the
others ; yet the whole twenty-four, by that •extraor-
dinary law, are entitled to act, as they could only be
justified in acting, if they had a perfect knowledge of all
those communications—namely, to recal the Governor-
General for acting on instructions which they knew no-
thing about, and for refusing to act on which he would
be liable to be impeached, he being bound to obey those
instructions. I therefore took the liberty of calling your
Lordships' attention to this most anomalous law, and I
was reminded by my Noble Friend that it was renewed
when I held the great seal. I then stated that it was re-
newsd without consideration at the time, at all events
1 without discussion, while my Noble Friend, not now in
1 his place, talked of it as if it had been the subject
of a very grave and solemn deliberation. I had no re-
! collection of that ; I was quite confident my Noble Friend
' was imagining the fact ; and accordingly I have since
looked into the very accurate report of those discussions
which at that day, in the Mirror of Parliament, were
given word for word in both Houses. Now, my Lords,
it appears there was not a single word said of it in either
House. I have looked into the papers of the corre-
spondence between the Directors and the Board of Con-
trol, and there is not one single word said of it in these
on either side ; and I have looked into the debates of
1 1784, when Mr. Pitt first brought in the Bill containing
this ill-omened clause, for it was in that originally, and
I find not one single word said on either aide in either
House of this extraordinary power. And for this rea-
son, that before that Act the Court had the absolute
power in its own hands, and all the debate arose on the
limitations of that power, not on granting them any new
authority. I verily believe it was left in one India Bill
after another from a perfect persuasion that it would
never be acted upon, but would remain a dead letter,
unless some extraordinary emergency, some crisis of the
fate of our Indian empire, should call upon the
Directors to exercise this most anomalous and extraor-
dinary jurisdiction. I quite agree with my Noble Friend
that this exercise was intended to be, not at the sport or
caprice of individuals, or without great reason and most
weighty and urgent necessity, the very statement of
which -would be its own vindication. Whether the Di-
rectors have acted on such grounds or not, I leave
your Lordships to gather from the most weighty cen-
sure, or at all events disapproval, which my Noble
Friend has, in the exercise of his duty, deemed it ne-
cessary publicly to give, with an authority which will
be universal in this country, in Europe, and in India,
wherever a name is known, and an authority is lip-
! pealed to which is as illustrious and as much enshrined
in the greatest renown of successful councils and suc-
cessful arms as any that can be found in either hemi-
sphere of the globe. There is an appeal, no doubt, but
I do not expect that any one will be so venturous as to
call on either House of Parliament to pronounce their
approval, I would almost say their patient bearing, of
the proceeding which has now been discussed. I believe
if any proposition were made in either House of Par-
liament for a vote approving of this extraordinary pro-
ceeding, that it would be met by as triumphant a debate,
and as decisive a majority against it, as any ill-fated
proposition ever met in either House of Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) It will be for my Noble Friend opposite
and her Majesty's Government, in the exercise of their
sound discretion as administering the Government, and
as Peers of Parliament, or Members of the other House,
to consider whether enough has now been done in order
to convey to India the decision that the policy—the
brilliant and successful policy—of my Noble Friend the
Governor-General has met with the entire sanction and
approbation of the Parliament of this country. If they
do not think it necessary to take any further step in
the matter, I shall not. But if any attempt be made to
obtain the sanction by Parliament of the course pursued
by the Court of Directors, there is no hazard, I think,
in predicting what the fate of such an experiment will be.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—If we were now
discussing the extent of power conferred by the charter
of the East India Company, I should venture to ex-
press my dissent from the opinion pronounced by my
Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham). Nor
can I think my Noble Friend as accurate to-night
in his recollection of facts as I have generally known
him to be. It may be true there was no discus-
sion in Parliament as to the power of recal by
the Directors of the East India Company ; but in the
negotiations which took place in '33 between the Go-
vernment and the East India Company, this power is
most distinctly and directly adverted to, and the propo-
sition made by the Government of the day to limit this
power within narrower limits was after mach discussion
and deliberation withdrawn. But that point is not what
we have now to consider ; and, unfurnished as we must
all necessarily be with the information requisite for the
discussion of such a topic as that adverted to, I should
certainly not have risen, if it were not .for what I must
take leave to call the somewhat extraordinary speech of
the Noble Duke. Without any notice whatever—with-
out our being in a position in any way to judge of the
justness of his strictures, the Noble and Illustrious
Duke—relying on that undoubtedly high authority
which everything that falls from him carries with it—
has pronounced a most grave censure on the conduct of
the East India Company. My Noble and Learned
Friend (Lord Brougham) next rises, and challenges
any Member of Parliament to call in question the pro-
priety of the censure pronounced by the Noble Duke,
or to ask a contrary opinion from either House
of Parliament. Why, my Lords, how are we
to judge of the propriety of this censure ?
What knowledge have we of the circumstances
which induced the East India Company to take this
unexpected and strange step, and what right have we to
suppose—with all precedents leading to a contrary con-
clusion, and this power never having been exercised by
the Company up to this time—that it was now exercised
without just and extraordinary reasons? The Noble
Duke stated, and my Noble and Learned Friend re
peated the assertion, that the Directors must be neces-
sarily ignorant of the instructions under which the Go-
vernor-General acted, with the exception of the Secret
Committee. But must we not suppose that this Com-
mittee, being elected, is constituted of men in whom the
Directors have confidence, and must not the decision of
the Committee influence in turn the opinions of the
Directors ? The Noble Duke told us (what is well
known to the public) that this step was in former times
in contemplation, but that the influence of the Govern-
ment prevented its being carried into effect. Why, my
Lords, what a censure is this on the Government of the
day, when we know that the great body of the Directors
consists of persons who are in general most favourable
to the views of the present Government, who cannot be
supposed to have acted as they have done except on the
gravest consideration, and who could not have refused
to listen to the advice of Government ; nay—after what
has passed to-night—who seemed to have passed a reso-
lution in defiance of this recommendation. And of this
resolution, allow me to say, we know nothing, except
what we have learned to-night, and we now hear it has
been under consideration seven or eight months. The
Noble Duke illustrated the injudicious exercise of the
power of the Directors, by stating the difficulties that
might have occurred if exercised sooner. Why, does
not the fact that they took such a period for delibera-
tion show that they listened with calmness, forbear-
ance, and patience to whatever argument could be
urged • against the exercise of a power with which
they were entrusted, for the well-being of a great
empire ? The Noble Duke must permit me to say,
that I have read the papers relating to Gwalior Kith
little satisfaction. I think it a little unfair to have
entered on the discussion of this part of the subject,
when my Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby),
who had given notice of a motion on the subject, had, for
the present, withdrawn it ; but if our opinion be asked,
I, for one, must say that, looking at the papers generally,
if the war is great in extent, great in loss of life, and
great in the consequences which must result from it, I
cannot look on it with satisfaction, because I have the
misfortune to feel convinced that every good object
which has been attained by the gallantry and ability of
our troops, could have been attained without the blood-
shed that has arisen. lam not going to argue that
point now ; but when an opinion has been expressed on
ono side, 1 thought it right to say that the House was
not unanimous in it. All sides, I thought, concurred the
other evening in the opinion that the discussion should,
for the present, be postponed until Lord Ellenborough's
arrival, unless Parliament should at once be called on
to take some decided step in the matter. After what
has passed, I feel no hesitation in asking the Naehle Diake
whether it is the intention of the Government to lay on
the table any communications which may have passed
between the Board.of Control and the East India Corn-
' pany on this subject ?
The Duke of WELLINGTON—AIthough he was
anxious to afford their Lordships every information yet he
thought at the present moment it was notdesirable to do so.
A question had been put to him by his Noble Friend
(Lord Colchester), and in reply he said no more than
what he considered to be his duty, and nothing which
had fallen from the Noble Marquis opposite would induce
him to alter his opinion as to the indiscretion of the con-
duct of the Court of Directors.
The Marquis of NORMANBY was sorry the Noblo
Duke opposite said that he would not lay upon the table
the papers referred to. He did not think such a course
was in accordance with the usual straightforward con-
duct of the Noble Duke, because otherwise the Court of
Directors would not have an opportunity of having a
fair trial.
The Duke of WELLINGTON (as we could under-
stand) said he thought he had a right to speak his
sentiments, and he also should say that the conduct of
Lord Ellenborough met with the entire approval of her
Majesty's Government.
Lord CAMPBELL thought it was essential that the
Court of Directors should be allowed to exercise their
undoubted and legal right over the Governorship of
India, without being unduly interfered with.
After a few words from the Duke of BUCCLEUCH,
the matter dropped.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition from the Dis-
senters of Birmingham against the Dissenters' Chapels
Bill.

The Marquis of I.ONDONDFRRY presented a pe-
tition from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses
of Sunderland against the proposed duty on coal
imported into London. In doing
sohe thought it most unfair to injureiheht?intesraeici
interest
of the large coal-owners and their numerous dependents,
by imposing a tax for the purpose of such chime-
rical objects as the embankment of the Thames.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Government had
not as yet decided upon imposing this tax.
The ;Marquis of NORMANBY said he had intended
this evening to move for a Committee to in-
quire into the regulation and application of the funds
of the Board of Charities in Ireland. However, he
would postpone his motion for a week, in order
that he might afford an opportunity to the Government
of taking the matter into their own hands.
After ti few words from Lord CA,,trnu, and tl4