The Sun.
London, England, 1821-02-13 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr..T.thlison from the Office of Chief Secretary for Ireland,
presented 3 -Rl..;Port from the Comthissioners of the Irish
Ei,Lh-tries,—Oriered to-be prir.ted. -
Mr. Curtis, frthn the Bank of England, presented an Ac-
count of the total number of Bank Notes in circulation.—Or-
dered to be printed.
•Mr. Parker presented the Seventeenth Report of the Carnatia
torri.nis;or.t-Ts.—Ordered to be printed.
.• stif.W. LEMON presented _a Petition from biskeard;
COrriviall, praying for the restoration of her Majesty to her full
rjghts,,arol to the insertion of her, name in the Liturgy.—Qr-
dered to 1:- printed. .. .
• Mr. 4 t ONSLOIV presented a Petition from the In-
o: .;..;Idford, expressive of the alarm of the Peti-
ti•—.z: ; ..arnple of an infraction of her Majesty's rights
iolntion of their own, representing the general
c • :•• 1•' 7:.,10.1i the country labenred, and praying for
;:t_cforin..- On presenting the Petition the Hon.
and L%1.1":".'. • ,:::tlnnan argued at some length to prove that
the oniission of tie Queen's name in the Liturgy was illegal
anti-_tinconstitutional—that the precedent of the Queen of
George the Fitsl was quite inapplicable to the case; and that
the Act cf.lit.4'ormity prescribed the rule, any departure from
winch was whclly unjustifiable—The Petition was ordered to
be printed.
()n- the .motion of Mr. S. AtORTLEY the Bull Poor
Rates' Bill. was reads second time, Mr: LAMBT()N giving
notice, that as he understood it trenched on the.rights of some
of his-Coastituents who belonged to the Shipping Interest, lie
would oppose it at a future-stage.
ROPEIVAKERS' PETITION.
Sir R. WILSON presented a Petition from above 700 Rope-
makft's of the Metropolis, complaining of distress. .Many -of
them were absolutely living on charity. They attributed the
evils under which they laboured principally to excessive taxa-
tion; from winch they prayed for relief. SOme part of the op-
pression which they suffered, -the Petitioners ascribed to toe
introduction of machinery into their trade, which had thrown
more than two-thirds of their number out of employ. They
were by no means hostile to ingenuity; hut there was one
most obnoxious machine called the .devil, which enabled 5 or. 6
men to do that which was formerly the work of 70 or 80. This
devil the Petitioners trusted the house would put- into imme-
diate connexion with the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, in
ondet. that he might be made to take his share of the general
toestiOn.—CA • laugh.)--The lion. Gentleman observed, that
if the Pro Sent-condition of the country long. continued, the
gr.-Alcoa of all callinities must ensue; for in that case, we
iitiould have rot Only a suffering population, but an idle popu-
lat.ion ; • and the effect of idleness on morals was too well known

to render it necessary for hire, to expatiate on the subject.—
(Hear, hear !)
On the motion that the Petition be brought up,
Mr. CURWEN observed, that on a former occasion, when
a Petition was presented remonstrating, against the undue use of
machinery,, and praying for a restraint upon it, a long discus-
sion had taken place, in the course of which it appeared to be
the unanimous opinion of all the most intelligent :Members :of
the House, that the discouragement of machinery would be
highly injurious to the country ; opinion in which he be-
lieved the Petitioners theirnihlvea afterwatds concurred.
The Petition ww.; then brOughtnp, read, and ordered .to 'be.
printed.
Mr. BENNET presented a Petition from Hinckley, con-
demning the late proceedings htgainat hereMajestyots
unfair, and scandalous, and recommending the immediate re-
storation of her Majesty's name to the Liturgy. It also prayed
for Parliament try Rethrm.—Ordered to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. WESTERN, an account was ordered
to be •laid before the House of the quantity. of. Corn-wash dis-
tilled in England from the AM July, 1789, to the sth July;
1820, distingejahing the qthintities distilled in each year.
-Sir R. lIERON presented a Petition from Alford, in Lin:
colnshire, signed isy-a aminber of industrious and respectable
inhabitants, praying ;hi- the restoration of her Majesty's name
to the Liturgy. The floriel3aronet said, that feeling as he did
the impoliey; illegality and injustice of her Majesty's name
being omitted, he had great pleasure in declaring his hearty
concurrence in the.prayer of the Petitioners.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
•On the motion of Sir G. CLARKE, the Longitude Bill was
read a third time and passed.
STATE OF AGRICULTURE.
Mr. GOOCH gave notice, that on Thursday the let of March
he would move,for a Committee to take into consideration 'the
present state of agriculture.
Sir J. NE WPORT, in moving that certain orders for re--
turns of sums paid-into-the First Fruits Office, in Ireland, Sec.
which had not been complied with, should be complied with
forthwith, observed, that similar delays in .obeying the com-
mands of the House were frequent, and had very much Te-
tarded inquiry into public abuses. The returns in question were.
ordered to be made forthwith.
. PETITION FRO3I DOVER.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH presented a Petition from the In-
habitants of Dover, praying for the restoration of her Majesty's.'
name in the Liturgy. While on his legs, perhaps, lie Might
be allowed, to advert to a gloss misrepresentation which had,
taken place, of What had fallen from him on a foriner evening.
In what he had then thought it his duty, to Offer; he had not
said one word about the restoration of the Queen's name to the
Liturgy, but hi some of the public prints he had been made to
express a - very strong opinion on that subject. This-he had
carefully
.avoided, confining himself solely to other matters.
He then read some pasages from the Petition to show the ob-
ject of those who_ presented it, remarking by the way, that
Dover being a place in which the feelings of the populace were
likely to be strongly moved, the Petitioners anxious not to do
any thing that would agitate the public mind, had not called
a public meeting, but had drawn up the Petition in private, and
left it for those who thought proper voluntarily tb pot their
signatures to it.' The Petitioners_ willing for a Reform, gave as
an additional reason the majority in that :louse of 101 in favour
of the exclusion of the Queen's name from the Liturgy. This
opposition to her Majesty's lawful claims proved to them that
the House did not speak the sense of the people. In another
part, they :express anxiety for the suppression of those disloyal
publications which had appeared against the King, as well as
those which had been sent forth -against his Royal CoPsort ;
and they declared they viewed the language held in the public
prints on both "sides as most repugnant to the principles of mo-
rality, and they prayed the House to address the Crown, calling
for the restoration of the Queen's name to the-Liturgy. • .
Mr. IL WILBRAHAM corroborated the statement of his
lion. Colleague, as to the manner in which this petition was
got up, and the anxiety manifested not to disturb the public
peace. He wished the spirit of conciliation existed generally in
the country as strongly as it did in that division of it.
Mr. LITTLETOIN, tmderstanding this petition to refer to
the Public Distress, thought it might not be improper to ad-
vert to what had fallen. from him on a former night (when the
Birmingham Petition was before the House) which had. been
misrepresented in some of the newspapers. He had suggested,
that as a measure for relieving the agriculturist and the "poor
manufacturers, it might be. desirable, if it were possible, to
fir
substitute r those duties which pressed most hardlyon those
classes, a Property Tax; and a Tax on the Interest of the Na-
tional Debt. He had never concurred with an Hone Member
opposite in wishing to reduce the rate of interest on the Public
Debt. Great as the distress of those he wished tO relieve was,
he disclaimed all participation in the project of the Honourable
Member to whom he had alluded. Meaning .no.otfence to the
Hon. Gentleman, in his view such a measure would be disho-
nourable—would be a violation of good faith that would go to
affect the bases-on which' property rested in this-and in every
Other country. •
. .
Mr. CURWEN hoped he had always been as anxious to
preserve an honourable and independent character as the no:-
nourable Member who had just sat down. In the long time
that he had sat in that House, he had never given a vote which
he was-rot prepared to support. He did not know why, when
se much distress was felt by other classes, why, the property df
the fundholder should be exempted from those ',girth:ens- to
which the others were obliged to submit. Circumstances had
augmented the property of the fundholder, while that of the
landholder was diminished. The latter • had fallen more than
2.5 per cent. He knew of two very considerable estates that had
been lowered 2 per cent. anti yet the farmers were now calling
for a further reduction of rent. Under existing circumstances,
it appeared to him that nothing could be more fair than that
the fundholders should not only contribute to the .-maintes
nonce of' the poor, but their property should .be subjected• to
that depreciation which had fallen on every other description of
property.
Mr. BENNETT (Member for Wilts) . observed, • that the
fuuOholder unavoidably paid taxes on the purchase of. various
articles of common use.

Sir C. BURRELL-thought that the pressure on the landed
interest was such, that unless further protection were afforded,'
the agricultural classes must he lost to the country, yet he
would be the last man to recommend a violation of public
faith. But a plan of taxation had been suggested that Would
make funded property liable without any violation of public
faith whatever. The idea was not his own ; it had been sug-
gested to him some time ago by a Gentlemen connected with
the collection of the revenue. It was this, that a trifling tax
should be imposed on transfers of stock, and this, according to
the calculation of the Gentleman who had shggeked it, would
produce not less than income of between three and four Mil-
Lions per annum. This plan, if adopted, might relieve the
.generalpressure of taxation, and that without' violating that
good faith, which ought to be preserved with the public.cre-
ditor.
Mr. P. GRENFELL considered the recommended reduc-
tion of the interest of the public: debt would be neither more nor
less than a direct breach of Nth, and a violentattack on prO-
perty. He did not think the resources of this country so far ex-
hausted as to make any measure of the kindnecessary. Let
Ministers apply themselves in earnest to tranquillize the 1ie0...
ple—let them restore her Majesty's name to the Liturgy (he
knew of no other way of bringing -.back tranquillity)—and let
them have recourse to measures of economy and.retrenchment,
and he had no doubt that our resources would - prove sufficient
to carry the Nation through all its difficulties.
The petition was ordered to be printed. -
SCOTCH LAW COURTS.
. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND gave notice
of a Motion for Thursday, to carry into effect a part of the Re-
port of the.Conunissioners on, the Scotch Law. Courts.—ln an-
swer to a question frot ,Mr. M. A. Taylor, we understood the
Learned Lord to say; that lie did not mean to ektend'his pro-
position to the Court of Exchequer.
_KILMAINIIAAL
Lord JOHN R,USSF,,',LL postponed his motion, which stood
for to-morrow, respecting-the proceedings of the Kilmainham
Meeting, to Tuesday-the :27th of March.
THE ALLIES AND NAPLES.
Lord J. RUSSELL inquired of the Chancellor of the Ex-.
chequer whether Governoment had received any copy of a De-
claration made by the Allies, Austria, Russia, and Prussia,'
explanatory of their present intentions, addressed to the ,Go-
vernment of Naples.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that any such Declaration had been received from the
Allies. Some other Member of his Majesty's Government, or
his Noble Friend, when he came down to the House to-mor-
row, would perhaps be.able to afford him. some information on
the subject, which it was not in his power to supply.

GRAM POUND.
Lord JOHN RussEr.r, in moving that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee on the
6 rampound Disfranchisement Bill, observed, that
it would be quite superfluous for him to go over
the grounds on which the Bill had been intro-
duced, fully discussed as they had been on so
many former occasions. Adverting to the pro-
positions whiCh had been made with respect to
the place to which the franchise should be trans-
feiTed, he said he should himself prefer trans-
ferring it to Leeds, because that place contained
a large and respectable class of housekeepers,
who at present had no vote for the election of a
Member of Parliament,, and because that would

- practically tend to mice the grievance that five
of th 1
titlee
olarrgaessti
ntgol%eV nis iG t
treserielatat
tive!
the
'esdatQnS:
f time it was aliriost a.great a grievance that n
; County, so extensive nd populous as Yorkshire,
1 should return but t;v Members to Parliament.
' He was really very itliiferent whether the elec-
tive franchise taker frm Grampound, was con-.
ferred on Leeds, or o! the-County of York ge-
nerally. He shoUlt nt .at present enterjato the
general question ofßeorm ; 'what he thought, if
the Bill was not p;ssd in one of those forms
which he had mentond, it would he to tell the
people.that they cotldiave no expectations from
that house: The .f.'Zble Lord concluded_ by
moving the Order cf. tie Day for the House to
resolve itself into aCcamittee.
Mr. GIIENFELL stid.that as lie bad,previously
resisted all motions for ['reform as visionary, it
was necessary for him o state his' reasons for
supporting the Bill. 11. would oppose any great
or general alteration of he Constitution, but he,
was. willing to adopt anrinciple for the removal
of corruption, and for aiplyin,,,a specific remedy,
as it was proposed to do is the yresent instance,
by transferring the rigt of election to the town
of Leeds ; that he thog,ht would be a practical
remedy to an admitod evil, the adoption of
which could not but se attended with salutary
consequences.
Mr. R. MARTIN saitl,-that be sho7tld resist the
Bill in every stage of it, both as to the pr;nciple
and the application of it. It set out with stating:
an untruth, .by dedaring Also the elections in
Grampound were rotoriously corrupt. In: re-
futing that assertiorrhe referred to the elections
which had taken place since The ,Bill had!been '
pending. In this particular instance they should
try the efficacy of the existing law before they
ventured on a new plan—they, should try the
efficacy of the bribery oath, as tendered at all
elections ; if that ware done he had no doubt but
that much of the Evil comp)ained of, %you'd be
avoided. He shbull as soon think of taking a way
the Cha'rter from the Bank of England, as the
Franchise froth the Borough of Grampound.
Mr. Serjeant Osg,ow contended, that the im-
provement in the-ptrity of election, as evinced in
the two late elections for Grampound, was to be
attributed to the fat of this Bill having been
hanging over the heals of the electors. The bri-
bery of Grampound was so notorious, that he
would, without hesitation,, consent to the dis-
franchisement of that Borough. . He approved of
transferring the right cf. voting to the Town of
Leeds in preference tc the adjoining Hundreds
of Pyder and Powder, vltich were already fully
represented.

Mr. WILSON approvelof the Bill because it
went to remedy a practical evil. As to the com-
parison which had been made between Gram-
pound and the Bank of England, he contended,
that if a blot appeared on 'the Charter of the

Bank, it should not be field sacred , after the
powers entrusted to it had been abused. lle

thought the only wiry in: which Parliamentary
Reform could safely take plaCe was, that'wherd-
' ever an
.evil was proved to exist, a suitable re-
medy should be applied.
Mr. LockuAnT contended, that it had been
proved that the King's writ for the return of
: Alf4rlhP i'S ' fur : -thA norough of -Grampound had
been regularly construed into a.writ of vendicioni
exponas. He did not object to disfranchisement
of that Borough, but he did not wish that the
principle of. extending the elective franchise to
•the payers of scot and lot should be Inked up
with the present Bill. He believed the repre-
sentation to be on too narrow.a basis either to
shield the people, or to support the dignity of
the Crown. Ho should, therefore, give his sup-
port to any regulation kvhicla would adMit pro-
perty to a greater share h the representation.—
He did not approve, however, of the transfer of
the elective franchise to the payers of scot and
lot, as it would hear too intensely on a'mixed.
Monarchy. To the disfranchisement of Gram-!
pound, as an act of political justice, he had not 1
the least objection.
Sir J. NEWPOitTsaid, that the Honourable
Member (Mr. Lockhart)expressed himself fully
satisfied as to the principle of disfranchising
Grampound, he only differed upon a compara-
tively immaterial point, namely, as to what place
the franchise should be transferred. The far
greater difficulty_ was as, to recognising the .prin-
ciple of disfranchising the Borough ; a principle
rendered quite necessary, in consequence of the
shameful system of bribery' and corruption which
had been so long practised by the Electors of
Grampound. With respect to what had fallen
from the Honourable Member for Galway (Mr.
Martin), undoubtedly, if that Honourable Gen-
tleman thought that there was, no necessity for
Reform 'of any kind—=if be thought that gross
bribery Ought not to be noticed, there could not,
in his opinion, be any use for the House going
into a Committee, nr doing any thing else to put
an end to bribery-and corruption.. But, that Hon.
Gentleman had stated his conviction that Many of
the Electors were bribed, and how did he propose
to protect the public from that evil ? 13y adding.
perjury to bribery (Hear !)'; •for if the oaths of
persons guilty of bribery and corruption were to
be taken, what would it lead to?—manifestly to
nothing but perjory. Ile (Sir John Newport)
could not ',help thinking that the plan suggested
by the Honourable 111(nnber would rather con-
firm the evil than promote any salutary Reform,
it would be more injurious to the character of the.
people than any othertneasure.
Mr. MA BTLN explained.- He did not make
light of bribery, what he wished was, that those
whir might be found guilty, of bribery and cor-
ruption should be punished, but he thought that
the law ought not to punish their descendants.
A MEMBER (whose name we could not learn)
said,- that though he had hitherto voted against
the measure of Parliamentary Reform, he would.
. ,
yet support the present Motion; 'he would do so
because the measure would give great public sa-
tisfaction. He.waS not, however:, one of those
who thought that a Reform in Parliament would
remove the public grievances, he was convinced
that the public voice was echoed more frequently
within the walls of that Horise than it was the
fashion to acknowledge. 1
Mr, DAVIES GILUERT rose to move iustruc-

dont to the Committee. The. lion. Met-liter
spoke in a low tone, and was very imperfectly
heard in the Gallery: lie said, that on the main
question of Reform, lie perfectly agreed to every
sentiment contained in a late speech pronounced
by the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool, before
his Constituents: The Constitution of England
solved a problem which no.other Country in like
world was ever able to do: \lt preserved and.
united Dentotracy,with Monvphy and Aristo-
cracy.. 11,11 e Demcit ratic patt ol'th4 Constitution
absorbed a great portion of the power of Go-
verpment,.and it was necessary that it should be
controuled by the influence of the other parts.--
Notwithstanding 'what had been said respecting
the want of sympathy with the people, he (Mr.
Gilbert) thought that the House was more dis-
posed to be carried away by the temporary opi-
nions of the people than it always ought to be.—
The Hon. Gentlethan then stated, at some length
but in a very .inaudible manner, his opinions on
the question before the House. He stated that
he. was willing to support the principle of the
Bill for
,defranchisin, Grampouud, but he
thought that no Freeholder, who had _not been
convicted of bribery, should be deprived of his
right of voting, but that he should retain that
right, and that the right of voting generally
should be transferred to the neighbOuring Hun-
dreds. The Hon. Gentleman" concluded by
moving; " That instructions should be given to,
the Committee to make a provisiOn to extend the
right of voting of the Borough of GraMpound to
the Preeholders of the adjacent Hundreds."

Ah.' PHILLIP-3 commenced by replying to the
observations which fell from the last Speaker,
respecting the Constitution of Parliament, and its
relative-situation arid duties with regard to the
people'; but owing to the indistinct tones in
which he spoke, we were not enabled to collect
his sentiments clearly. The. Hon: Gentleman
opposite.(Mr. D. Gilbert) did "not deny that gross
practices had existed in this borough. Yet he
would not extend the elective franchise to. some
distant district, where' its example would not -be
likely to operate ; but was for confining it im-
mediately around the spot where the contagious
corruption was most probably lurking. Where
there was an increase of commerce, wealth, and
population; there was always an increase of intel-
ligence. And if wealth, commerce, pdyulation,
and intelligence, was not that which ought to be
represented, he Would ask what was ? lie thought
it a great calamity that so much of the com-
merce of the country was not represented.—
If so great a mass found themselves excitliled
from the benefits of the Constitution, they
would infallibly be. made . enemies of the
Constitution. When the. Honourable Member
referred to the population of the hUndreds near
Grampound, he wished him•also to. refer to the
popUlation of other districts.—The County of
Cornwall sent forty-four Members to Parliament,.
which was the eleventh part of the whole repre-
sentation. Now the County of Lancaster, which
contained between an eleventh and a. twelfth part
of the whole population, only sent a thirty-fifth
part of the representation. The county of York.
contained a tenth part of the population, audits
awoportiou in the representation Ts'zis between a
.!s..eventeerith and an 'eighteenth. Looking at the
relation between the population of Cornwall and
its representation, and to that of-York and Lau,.
caster, Cornwall sent one member to Parliament
for every five thousand, Lancashire one to every
sixty thousand, and Yorkshire one .to every
thirty-three thousand. Now he saw no ground
:whatever ,why cornwall should send. this prodi7
gious number of Members to Parliament. The
wealth of Cornwall, in comparison to that of the
other Counties, was. as 'one -_to fifteen. The pro-
perty of Cornwall was one fifty-fourth part of the
real property of .England, The real property of
Lancashire was one sixteenth part, while the real
property of Yorkshire was one-tenth or one-
eleventh. Thus it appeared, that the representa-
tion was distributed in an inverse ratio, according
to the existence of wealth and commerce. If they
proceeded further, it would he found, that in the
year 1815, the catinty of Cornwall paid one sixty-
seventh part of the whole, rates of the county,
whilst Yorkshire paid one tenth, and Lancashire
between a seventeenth and an eighteenth part.
It appeared to him that the populous districts of
the kingdom wanted representation more than
any other object. lie_ considered it to be a most
important principle to be established, that a trans-
fer of the elective franchise should be made from.
a small borough to a large and populous manufac-
turing town. For that reason be should give his
support to the Bill.

Ni'. H. GURNEY observed that the llon. Gen-
tleman who had proposed- the amendment, was
a strenuous advocate for his Cornish •brethren ;
yet he (Mr. G.) was quite at a loss to know
what Cornwall had done to deserve a double re-
presentation, and he had yet to discover the
strong claims of those two hundreds spoken of by
the lion. Member, ;'idler and Powder.—(Hear,
hear•!)—ln his opinion, there was no more ten-'
dency among the County Members towards the
democratic principle, than among those Members
who were returned .for Boroughs. From the
reign of Edward I. down to the time of Charles
11. a period of 400 years, the principle of trans-
fer had
.been acted upon in 140 instances. But
no proceeding similar to the present had taken
place at a more distant period than 50 years back.
That was the case of the Borough of Shoreham,
and occurred in the year 1771, when Lord
North's Administration was obliged, in its weak-
ness, to submit, the numbers being, on a division,
76 to 15. The second instance was that of Ayles-
bury, a Borough that had been stoutly contended
for, as being the property of the Marquess of
Buckingham. lie now came to say a few words
respecting the county of Cornwall. It was as
much the prerogative of the Crown to send writs
for the return of Members to the House of Com-
mons, as it was to introduce new Peers to the
other House. But then that prerogative was to
he cautiously exercisedi In ancient times Corn-
wall had only six Boroughs ; bot, in the time of
Henry -V E., the Ministers of. the Crown, finding
themselves opposed in the progress of a certain
Bill, Dudley, Duke of Northumberlandonm
moned six more Cornish Members for six new
13Orou" telling the electors in the mean time
0

wilan tiloy were to return. In the Boroughs of
Cornwall the royal prerogative had been abused,
and a great advantage would arise, if, whenever
any orthem were disfranchised, the representa-
tion was opened to large niandacttiring towns,
which at present returned pp Members to that
House.
The Mori. W. WARD was of opiniod ' hat this'
question bad nothing whatever t,c, do sti !liege-
tikral question of Portiamentary Refesrm; vend lie
hoped he should not he thought pledged to sup.:
port Reform, because l Ove his ready assent to
the present proposition. There was no man who
looked at the large manufacturing towns, which
did not send Members to the Legislature, but
must be convinced that they suffered some incon-
venience from not having a more direct represenr
tation—(Hear !)—Let him not be misunderstood ;
he would contend that there was no large boly
of people unrepresenied in that House, nor any
portion of the population which did not find in it
sympathising, interests. Where the cases were not
Urgent, he thought indirect representation Wokil I
he preferable ; __but where the into rests dtid'fo#:.
tunes of men were at stake; as often lia:,•ipened'iti
large towns of the description adverted to, he
thought a prima facie case was made out idly they
should be represented by persons more imme-
diately under their influence, and in whom they
could repose peculiar confidence. But then 4
wenld be said that this was a dangerous prece4
dent; as it would lead to an increase of the Metre-
hers in the House of Commons. That objection
might bold good, if it could be sustained—hut in
cases like the present it fell to the groUnd. Thtl
had now the means in their. hands
,to serve the ~
representation, without increasing the number o,
representatives ; and while they were obligeti t.L)
be ingenious and active in discovering the mode
of disposing of the franchise, he had no hesitation
irk saying, that he thought it ought to be trans.-
ferred to some of the manufacturing towns:
Should it be given to the County. of York, wict&t.:.
would be taken from the cOrnmercial would be
conferred on the Agrivaltural Iw:scrests, whicis-
would be a manifest injustice. Without intend.-
lag the slightest disrespect to "country Gentle
Men, he wenld Say, that they did not appear ti
him to be the persons best qualified, from their
,habits, to. transact all that intricate detail of
business which came ,before the House. I a
the present instance, the representation had,
as it were, been - estreated to the House,.
and it ought to he given to some one of those,
places, which. were rendered important by their
population, trade, and manufactures. There wils,
nothing which was more to be deprecated than a
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ercia
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eiunpa-
..
within the last
direct representation. He did not mean that it
should be in proportion to the population,' for
that he considered preposterous and extravagant ;
but he would have all interests as it were per-, ~
sonified in that House. If it was untrue that thrre ~,
ever was a time when the represeatation was fa
proportion to the population, so it was also untrue
that there ever was a time when there were any
towns in this.country unrepresented. But while •.
they conformed to the wise regulations of their,
ancestors, he saw .no reason why . large towns •
should not have a more direct representation-
Ile confessed Ire did not understand the,grogud
upon which the Hon. Member's proposition wa • .
founded. He did not see what title proximity L.
5..„.1
'game to share in the franchise, or %.:Ity a neigh-.
bouring hundred should be heir to a deceased
borough.--(A laugh.)--To him the inhabitants
of Threadneedle-street appeared to have as good,-
claim to the franchise as those of 'any of the
Hundreds which Were . adjacent to Cirampound-
To the voters themselves it. would be no boon as .
it would be diffused among an indefinite number-, •
. Mr. D. GILBERT said, he proposed to preserve
the- elective franchise ,to all the voters during
their lives. They amounted to 43 or 50. After- ,
wards the right of voting would be given to the
Mayor and Corporation', twelve in number.
Mr. WARD Continued: Rut .2 fter all, what WO/
it they talked of ? What was it the electors of '
Grampound had now l'. A good marketable COw—
modity.—(Elear ! and a laugh);--and they were
going to give them in return a dry constitutional.
franchise. They should put out of the case,
Cricklade, Shoreham, and Aylesbury, which were
too recent to be of any authority, rand ess,cea-
sisfent with ancient usage. Till within the me-
mory of man, there were no such anomalies a 5 ,
these half-knights halfLburgesses.- The bur-
gesses which his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell)
had dug up in his patriotic excavations---(a laugh)/
—had mote the air of genuine antiques than these
half-knights half-burgesses representing corrupt
amputated boroughs eked out by Freeholders of • .
the hundreds. He (Mr. W.) was disposed to live,
in the old houSe as long I ecould, but if a Par' ;1
as 1.,
of it fell•down about his ears, he would rebuild
it as well as he could. 'He would not willingl7 I
pull down, but when it was necesslry to renew
What was fallen, he would not look at ugliness 39
the only pledge of security—(Hear, hear!).— _
'When the reformers pointed out to him the irre-. ,
gularities of the constitutional building, he would--
say, "I will not at all trust my own posers 1`)„
pull it down for the purpose,of ie.:building it;
but he would also say, " when lam obliged-to i
alter it, 1 will do it according to" a form which pro-,
tilses to my judgment strength and convenience.
—(hear; hear !). .
Mr. W. WYNNE supported the. Bill. No Mem-
ber had argued that it could be fit or desirable:
after. the gross and glaring corruption whicto
Grampound had exhibited, it should continue
send :Members to Parliament. The same n (0.
hadt
rious system which had been expOsed now,
existed for years. These boroughs were not in-
fluenced by individuals, nor by localproperty..---", _
As one who sat upon the Committee which led te°
the disfranchisement of Aylesbury, he could stato,
that that borough was not under the influence of
any one individual, but always bifluenced by
.11_
e
heaviest purse. He saw no earthly reason scti. _
the ele-etive franchise should be confined to
_tlee
hundreds. He thought the breach ought to :0
filled up to the greatest advantage. There .0
no apparent objeCtion.to the plan of the /\.,,,b.:1.
Lord ; and he could not' agree with hi.". 11°
Friend opposite, that it would_ open a door t)


~ . , ..
increase of the derrideracy of that House. the
-Very Constitution of the House, made up of diffe-
i-ent interests'as it was, would prevent any of its
component parts, and particularly the democratic
part, from gaining a preponderance. By extend-
ing the franchise to the West Riding of the
County of York, one great inconveniente would
certainly be got rid of. The number of Free-
holders was so great that in the present state
of the Representation of. that County it
was impossible that all the.
p -elector's couoll within the time allowed by
the law. Id
'Upon this ground a subdivision of the County
would relieve a very pressing inconvenience.—
Ile was convinced that 'those who called them-
selves Reformers were not such changelings, after
what they had declared 'and pformed,- to be
satisfied with that or•any. otherer measure. as
ThoSI
N •
thavo_ clamoured now; would continue to clamour if
tt'SY, asked were granted, and be ready to make
t a matter of c•omplaint. _ The. Bills which
Mepassed in the last Parliament regarding public
etings had been attacked and cried down ; but
the elections came , immediately after they were
'enacted, and he was prepared to say that, amongst
the
freeholders and respectable voters all over
ne kingdom, hose. measures were most popular,
pacid that Administration which proposed to re-
eal them would he most unpopular. It- would
~e for the House to decide whether the proposi-
Imn of the Noble Lord, or 'that of the Hon.
Member for Northumberland, would confer the.
.'tlost imPortant benefit upon the country, and to .
he actuated'in their choke list- that decision.
Mr. ROBINSON Said, that of all the -measures
Which had been 'proposed for the consideration
of the, House, he - was disposed.to prefer that
0( isis.lien. Friend (Mr. a Gilbert). Not
that he
Tee iilo 'any repugnance towards the mode
Ounended by the Noble Lord, or the Ho-
tiourahle Member opposite ; but he doubted whe-
. ler there was any existing- necessity for depart-
"lig From the mode of punishing 'this borough,
Iv lich Parliament had formerly adopted towards
others. When the measure *as first brought for.:
Nvard, there did existl such a necessity. The
us
Moe would recollect, that when this
measure
Was first originated, there was another before. the
house for applying to Penryn the -same princi-
ples upon which they were_ now called upon to
act• It might, nnder these circumstances, have
trees inconvenient to have extended the franchises
-of both Boroughs to their adjacent' hundreds, on
account of their being- situated so near each other.
-frlit as the measure against , Penryn had not ars
rved at an effective conclusion, there was now
:10 objection to the proposed extension to' the
1;11111dreds in the: neighbourhood of Grampound.-
pe Was of opinion that those of the Electors of
t. rampound who were not guilty of the' corrup-
s;an Proved upon others--those who had kept
snernselves pure in the midst of temptation—
'lould be hardly dealt -with, if that right, which
must he more dear to them from that very circum-
cs,talice, should now be taken. away.. He thought
r.lat the subject had better be discussed and de-
id. ed at that time, than after going into a Com-
ottlit ttee.
Unless any over-ruling necessity were
ear "v"tin, and not mere speculative reasons, for de-
r
l ,g from the usual course, he .should be dis-
t);:se4 t° vote for the proposition which extended
, e f ranthist to the hundreds in the flei'ghbour-
"od of the borough.
kr Ai
f ne-
css• • . INT said,. that upon the gteund o
is,,,u`t-sYs he should endeavour to strew toat the
I ('' The to the measure of the NOble
4orss, apply
s of their
elective f custom of depriving town
to be -as ranchise for political sin, was known
earlY as 1 'en of Henry the Eighth,
and see .a tle rye,.
to r n 1 -evkient object of that deprivation was
' e--"r
the •attached't the Go-
Vernstlew. People more
.o
the trati:e \I"
-ith respect to the question as to
the 11,,,.,--er of the forfeited franchise now before
the s -se, the Honourable Member supported
-'"ti givingb franchise to the-town
of Leeds °n for that. . .
ti • The H use -said,
he had been peti-
°lied hesi ° 7
°f which d ar'e bodies of manufacturers, many
-'
laree fAcomplained that several Gentlemen of
Inat°rtntle hi that House were not engaged in
°Peessa„
sress ,tures • The complaints, therefore, of
i .
/tot re in in
.the manufacturing districts could
WI • haell the House with that facility with
'lc th„ -
,preperi -,. - Would, the
if
manufacturing class wire
tern tr.e3' rePresented ; a class which was too of -
eted .
'width • with. illiberality and neglect,. and
t, it se—
es the duty as well as the interest of
I" Count
-ion. l4 rY to encourage and support. The
ember took cursory view of the pre-
. gresseve a
esS from
the e„ state of the manufacturing distr ..
si 'nil-lees
at if there emeut of the last war; and observed
"Pahip le,r.e had been a Member of that House
romper- info • Ministers of the state and
of t„ rnung
~
• districts they would
t haye
~ ,'e manufacturing 7 . .
Th
..
0.
The In.l. aunPte.d their late measures .ati_ectrn,
hoe, 'i,.'nfacturing class of-the -corrimunity. . The
' ss his a -
pioba,o'erriber concluded by expressing)
... P
f4rtilitt
.t.i of the Noble Lord's motion fths trans-
clesie,,lll,e elective .franchise to Leeds; and de-
.; r, \Ts. elective
to support that motion.
trt Speakmor, referring to the argument of the
°IN 5,,, ,") observed, that he thought the
'Ness' "40 deal. mostunfairly with the present
It*, ton_ :,
..
'Cfr the e'vedth t
CY should contract their discussion
:,c't enteceasiehrlrreeliatelv before them, and should
,-..'„ract qu,,° anY nrgu.ment- npOn the mere ab.
eieces
at
ef giving a repreSentative right to
'lle agreedPreEPnt unrepresented.—(Hear, hear !)
ac A,
ttrat when a Case had reached- the
re °I. venalit
h eht. should 3's as in the present, the Par-Ha-
i-Pt he did aPPIY the severest of all remedies;
- "din.. of not therefore agree that the West:
the foil. . of
should be Presented with
itidin elted riglif; for he saw no reason why a
3e(10 rsi Riding should have the liberty of
Ik,en A ale Riding
He thought; however, that
th.e 1 le Herts.° were called upon to decide upon
c leis_ .
stieteh ss: of inconveniences, they should' do that
and . appeared to promote the greatest good ;
• With ti .
sife u; lese views. if the Noble Lord oppo-
h °Old ie • .
e oir...wg e the Bill a more qualified shape,
kr 0 " ) would support it.
ti •
the. B. B kTI '' " •
flat the • fuLer said that some thought
Ne b , cause of Parliamentary reform would
~ 3 the loss of the
"e weeid , ' present Bill ; but to others
h rPiiik; I Say that, by taking a wider range for
ft • (iy than ss •
eener the circumstances required and
Precedents warranted, the most dangerous