The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-07 00:00:00

CLERKS IN CIVIL OFFICES

Mr. MABERLY moved for " a return of all clerks and
others admitted to any civil offices in the United Kingdoin,
since the Ist of January, 1816, specifying their namesrVatti
of their appointment, the offices they hold, the amount of 'sala'-
ries and emoluments of office ; separating the different depart;
ments in England, Ireland, and Scotland, from each other." '.•'•
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the Eiccur-
QUEII, the motion was agreed to. ..•' .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved
for " an account of all clerks and others whos,q services had
been discontinued during the same period."—Ordered.
-The Irish Coroners' Bill was read a second time.—To
committed on Monday. • •
CHURCH BRIEFS BILL.

Mr. LITTLETON moved the second reading of the above
Bill.

Mr. CURIVEN expressed his general approbation of this
measure. Under the old system flagrant frauds had been pu-
petrated. •
Mr. MONCIC wished that part of the Bill to be amended
which imposed certainly very severe duties on. the Church-
wardens. •

Mr. LITTLETON explained, and the Bill was read a se-
cond time, and ordered to be committed for Friday next.
On the motion of Mr. Serjeant ON SLOW, the tr!al for treason
(Ireland) Bill was read a third time. He moved to insert a
clause to assimilate the case of attempting the King's life, or
Compassing or imagining, his death, to the English law ; and
the clause being inserted, -the Bill passed.
METROPOLIS ROADS BILL: •

Mr. D. GILBERT moved the second reading of the Me-
tropolis Roads Bill. The Hon. Member stated, that the ob-,
ject of the Bill was to consolidate the various Road Trusts in
the . neighbourhood of London. He complained that these
trusts were too much subdivided, and one object 'of his Bill
would be to widen some of the roads and shut up others. Ile
did not deny but that the roads under the present syStem
were tolerably good, but they were preserved at a great ex-
pence.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL contended, that the new Bill
would entail ten times the expence on repairing the roads, which
under the present system was required. He opposed the Bill
in all its parts, and moved, as an amendment, that it be read a
second time this day six months.
Mr. DENISON said, that there was already so much eco-
nomy and management in the roads, that there was no occasion
for any alteration in the trusts.
Mr. CURWEN objected to the various enactments of the
Bill, and supported the amendment.
Mr. F. LEWIS admitted that the condition of those roads
was very good, but he did not think they were managed with
sufficient economy.
Mr. CALCRAFT opposed the Bill, and contended that the
roads in the vicinity of the metropolis were in a better state
than any roads in the kingdom. He then referred to the vari-
ous petitions which had been presented against the Bill, and in-
sisted that the measure was altogether unnecessary. According
to the theory of the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down,
all the trusts were to be superseded without any sufficient cause.
He objected to the second reading of the Bill, but if it was
read a second time, he hoped it would be sent to a Committee
up stairs.
Sir H. PARNELL supported 'the Bill, and vindicated the
measures pursued by the Committee. He thought that by a
modification of the trusts much good might be dated.
Mr. SUMNER would support the second reading, but with
the understanding that the Bill was to be referred to a Select
Committee, and not to a Committee of the whole House.
After a few words fro,m Mr. DENISON, the House proceeded
to divide,. and the numbers were—
For the Motion - 83
Against it
Majority for the second.reading . . - 67

Upon our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Mr. D.
GILBERT on his legs, recommending a reference of the Bill
to a Committee of the whol&House.
Mr. If. SUMNER moved Wok the Bill be referred to a Se-
lect Committee ; and after a short- conversation between Sir E.
Knatchbull, Mr.Calcraft, and the Chancellorof the Exchequer,
Mr. D. Gilbert acceded to the Amendment.

The question for referring the Bill to a Select Committee
was accordingly put and agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved That
the House, on its rising, adjourn to Monday next.—Agreed to.
Lord MILTON postponed his Motion on Foreign Wool
until after the recess.

Mr. H. SUMNER gave notice, that on Monday he would
move to renew the Committee on the Newington Vestry Bill.

SUPPLY.

Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR: of the I;
EXCHEQUER, that the House do now resolve itself
into a Committee of Sapplyr..; •
Mr. CREEVEY rose to oppose the motion. The
course which he was about to take might not, he
said, be very agreeable to the Rt. Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, or to the House, but he felt it ne-
cessary, in the discharge of his public duty, to
oppose the motion for going into a Committee of
Supply. Instead of going on he thought it was
the dgty of the House to retrace its steps. There
had been supplies enough voted, and, what good
had been hitherto effected ? Notwithstanding all
the petitions from all parts of the kingdom, corn-
plaining of the greatest distresses, and praying
for the strictest economical reform, the ITOUFC
had still gone on voting away millions of money,
and all the labours of hiaHon.'Friend the Mem-
ber for Aberdeen (Mt:llll'93e) had not produced
the diminution of one singlg.larthing in the pub-
lic expenditure. Under theie circumstances, no-
thing should induce him, as far as his vote or
influence in that House went, to go again into a
Committee of Supply: The Members of that
House had been called the trustees of the people,'
but they differed froni all other trustees, for they
themselves lived upon the property of the people.
---(Hear!)--When the affairs of a private Gen-
tleman were deranged, the first thing his trustees
did was to cut off all needless expences, and to
:discharge all the useless dependents and hangers-
on. But here the trustees of the people were
themselves the useless servants and hangers-on.—.-
He had often thought that as the people of
England found it was of no use to petition
that House, it would be a good thing, and
certainly an entertaining one, to see them
represented by Delegates at. the Bar of the
House. . What would be the natural language of
Delegates so sent to assert the rights of the
people ? They would say, " we are come here to
talk to you, and we are bold to say, that we
entertain a shrewd suspicion that you make a
very good thing of us—(Laughter I)—We are
aware that there are snug places. to the amount of
150,0001. a year, which you enjoy, and which you
will never consent to forego to relieve the dis-
tresses of the people. This may be a very plea:
sant arrangement. for you, but it is no laughing
matter for us." Such was the language which
the Delegates of the People would naturally use.
Supposing the people to be so represented, he
should like to have seen their Delegates in the
House during the last ten days ; when 7 his Hon.
Friend the Member Vic Essex obtained leave,
about a fortnight ago, to bring in a Bill for the
Repeal of the Malt Tax, this was considered a
great triumph—it was hailed as the beginning of

better times. tilt he should neVO forget, and
the people of England would never forget, the
language of the Noble Lord, who was manager
of the trustees. ". Do not triumph too soon,"
said the Noble Manager, do not halloo befos.
you are out of the wood"—(Hear; hear I.)—The Noble Lord, howeveer, had mile good his threat,
he had brought rq..the truseees.Of the people from '
all parts .of the country, and his Honourable -
Friend's majority of 25 was converted into a rna-
jority of 98 against him. And this-was not all,
for a great Northern GrandeeWas.made the vic-
tirri_ofhis attenipt_ to assist'his .stifferinw., conntry.
actually' coMplained in that House.
,that he..had.foSt4ool,,it year for 'having had'the
.hardihood tO Votefor, the.retieal of an'obnoxious
r'.,:iax----:(llear,-heitt!)-L--This was-41. flagrant breach
I'of,the'privileges• of that House; yet the Hon.
MeMbers for Fork and Montgomery,thoseCham- •
.pions of privilege.,- were silent upon that subject.
Let a printer commit a trifling error, -land the
HOuse was .sure., to hear enough of the attack
upon their privileges; but when a gross and tin-
constitutional attack upon, their privileges:was -
made' through the influence of the Crown, not a
word was to be said upon the.sUbject--(Hear, -
hear !)—'Phis was really enough to mate therit'
sick of privilege, and stilt more sick of its .cham- •
pions—(Hear, hear !)—The Honourable Mem-
ber concluded by moving the following Reso-
lution :
" That during the present Session of Parliament, Petitions
have been presented to this, House from every part of this king" •
dom, and from every description of its population, containing
statements of distress hitherto unheard of in this nation, and uni-
formly demanding, as one species of 'relief to their sufferings,
the strictest possible economy in the expenditure of the .public
money ; that the statement's so made 'itave in every ins:tans,:
been fully confirmed by the local information of tlis different
Members of this House, who have presented such Petitions,'
and yet, notwithstanding such universal applications flr relief. the ,•
different estimates for the public service for the year have hitherto
been prOCeeded in, and Millions of money voted for such par.;
poses, without any the least possible reduction whatever by this
House, although-repeated eiorts lia;e been made to effect the
same. That this House entertains the strongest possible opinion,
that this marked indifference. of the Representative I.'iody to the
sufferings of its constituents, is-mainly attributable to the follow-
ing fact, viz. :—That a very numerous body of the Members of
tlus House derive for thei:iselves, thsir faneilies, connexions.
and dependents, large pecuniary provisions. flora the taxes .of
the people ; and as such provisions for the inolt part are
made either for Mfices altogether useless, or groisly overpaidr'
and therefore the fittest objects for iiitmediat t extinction
or reduction, • so the holders or disposers of them in this
House have a direct personal interest in resistin7, every species
of economical Reform whatsoever ; that in addition to this
great permanent bar to all economical Reform, the licruxe has
lately witnessed, with the greatest indignation, the influence of
the Crown displayed by its Ministers its this House in a manner
the most arbitrary, and- with the. express and avowed object
of interfering with its Members in the discharge of-their dull
to their Constituents ;• the Earl of Fife; who lai'elV held the ot-
fice of one of the Lords of the Bedchamber to his -Majesty, hav7,
ing recently declared in his place in the Reuse, as one of its
Members, that he had been dismissed from his office as bona
of the Bedchamber to his Majesty, in consequence of having
voted in this House in favour of a Bill to repeal a tax 11.1)6n
Malt.
" That; under all these circumstances, this I-louse:ls of opi-
nion it will better. Consult ifs own honour and the inter-f:;t
public by immediately-inquiring into the facts be.fere
• eel, than in going any longer inlo. Committees of Supply to co'`_
away the money of the people Without the- slightest -possible,
prospect of tenet° the country."
Mr. HontiousE rose to second the motion.
Nothing could be more constitutional than the
course pursued by hiS Honourable FriethL ft
was not necessary to go back for precedents stl
far as the reign of Queen Elizabeth, for in 01,6
early part.of the reign of Charles the First, be-
fore the struggles between that Monarch and tb'''
Parliament, Sir T. Wentworth, afterwardS Lord
Strafford, moved a Resolution in that House, that
supply and grieVances should go hand in 1-13.0
The individual who adopted this sentiment w-ai
a man of the first rank and talent in the country'
and not liable to the imputation of being a heated
enthusiast. In tl4 Parliament, called the Pen-
sion Parliament, the attention of the House Iva!
called to what was then considered an extra-
ordinary fact, that 2,400,0001. were voted in
24 hours, but that House was grown familiar
instances in which much larger sums were voted
away in 24 hours. Ile did not state this fro;'
any wish to exaggerate tire grievances of which
the people had reason to complain, and 11'
begged to call the attention of the House to 1
declaration of Lord Grenville in the other 11011-:e
Of Parliament in 1816, C 4 that if Parliament 011:
tinned to support the keeping up of a large stali;
ing, army, ands to lavish- the public money as
they did, he would not trouble himself to take:.
part in debates which he could regard as nothint,
less than a farce." In the time of the Pension
Parliament 24 Memberi were posted as indivi-
duals who received pensions from the Crown'
Now he (Mr. HObhouse), on a recent division
counted hirriself no fewer than forty-seven PO:
sioners in a very small majority.—Such was t.tu:
difference in this respect between the present
Parliament and the notorious Pension Parliament'
-the measures6f which were denounced.by Andre*
Marvel as calculated to leave neither liberty Or
property in the country. As to the dismissal °f
Lord Fife. from his office of Lord of the Be"-
chamber, in consequence 'of the vote whichije
gave in that House, it was'a measure taken in ,
di-
rect opposition to the spirit of the COTlStitliti°"P
and in violation of. the Bill of Rights, which de-
clared that freedom of speech in debates or Pr'
~.
ceedingsin Parliament ought not to be impeach",/
or questioned. if the speech of a Mt-either of that.
House -could not be questioned, still less oug'h
:.
his vote to he made the subject .animadverSigli '
and if the• Ministers of the Crown could not get
up in their places and deny the charge, he 11.1.;
not the least hesitation in saying that they 1:41,
liable to impeachment for their conduct.
Honourable. Member then proceeded to ebfsert`he.
upon the operation which the influence O,been
Crown had in that House, which had
eti t°
growing up for many reigns, and threaten_ the
overlay all public spirit, and utterly destr?.Y
iia.,
efficiency of Parliament as the organ of the c
tional will. On this subject, he quoted' gi.,,op:srust_
from a famous pamphlet on hush-motley' p
fished in the reign of William III.; which
plained of the manner in which the House ryas
officered, the effect produced upon its suffrages
t
mpb yreance saeniduamu,
.other
ra
consequencen d
honest, m isexpectancy,tak
(1: country'ieu dneGePtfotfs
ceonmabplleadinttheof Kgirniegvatnoceb,aflairei'daterzytr.rßyilai,ny(lurnase;se-tin-ite,
that the Administration might think exPi ,a
It stated that 200,0001. had been einploy(:,(•;,
e votes of
es and lalltrves'
50)0°1
tbbhueertss e.wbip)yau
trgprwoa
was
e,
us
ttih-et.eso
tco a
influence
sethnetnowsltsh,

a year was doted to the same purpose., and
rA7f-,:ed upon the people to be. divided among those
who were to vote against the people's interests;
it Was 'impossible that such distribution of the
Public money should not have a bias on the minds
of those who enjoyed it. He would not detain
The House any longer; lie did not make these
°h. servations with a view of throWing any 'Lupe-
',_l'nent in the way of the business before them,
u'"ut to .ren
aind the House of what their duties
wre, and what the country expected from them.
--(near, hear !)
Ihe Gallery was then cleared for a division,'
but in a few minutes strangers were admitted ;
we found that no division had taken place ; and
Mr. CA.r.CRAFT was on his legs, alluding to the
at
aternent made in the House by Lord Fife, with
respect to his removal from office. lie contended
that Lord Fife stated the ground of his dismissal
was the vote which he gave for the Repeal of the
Malt Tax.—(No, no ! from the Ministerial
Sorry the words had not been taken down.—
'" then proceeded to say, that lie agreed
with most parts of the Resolution of his Ho-
ntbuttrable Friend: It could not be doubted
t—at'etit in. the present Session of Parliament, the
ions of the people had been totally disre-
P,rded.-(Hear !)-ft was equally true that nothing
"e economy had been attended to in the Esti-
rn.ates.
It could not be denied either that esta-
blishments were kept up much larger than cir-
44tristances could justify. He likewise agreed
'at the influence of the Crown in that House
-as too mighty and too powerful, to allow any
Zwal effect to the representation of the people.
1-11t!ie could.not agree with that part of the pro-
Drst'lon which went in a sweeping way to de-
-A.,,ec'te the representation of the executive of-
-0:;'i of Government-in that House. Ile was of
they that those offices ought to be represented
i,jette,and he did not think the public officers too
paid.—(Hear, hear! from-the Ministerial
~nches.)—llowever, although-711e could not
I',.ee with that part of the progSition which at-
10,'d in so sweeping a way the public officers
sat in that House, he could not withhold
h:4ssent to the proposition in general, and he
..,,Ped the Noble Lord opposite would give some
T'llanation relative to the statement made by
alird Fife with respect to his removal.
CASTLEREAGII said, that notwithstanding
that had fallen from Hon. Members, he was
1
.I,l:t,g°ing to be led into debate upon every topic
'eh had transpired, not only during the pre-
p:nt seSsion, but in a great part of the history of
arliament. he knew not by what right the
t c'''• Member designated him a managing trus-
oe, but he could tell that Hon. Member that his
anlY business in that House appeared to be such
113 he had then undertaken. Upon all occasions
I:, was ready with this sort of opposition, but
c;titiii the House were really at business, and de-
m 'LIR upon what ought to be done, the Min.
obkernber then never favoured them with a single
3t‘'ervation, whether a sum was too large or too
gr 41411.7 Pr whether it was improper or fit to be
ted• Re (Lord Castlereagh) believed, that
,a It, one occasion had the Hon. Member open-
lips, during the Session, when a discussion
tez'i going forward. He contented himself with
ern.,! the Protester-general and libeller-general
arliament—(loud cheers); and with speak-
/10%ra Prologue to the performance of his H 0,4
,4 able Friend, the Member for Aberdeen.
•kti.l • .
Ito really his prologue to-night had been
'')
(I lof the comic and of the burlesque, that he
It hard,, Castlereagh) did not wonder at the effect
4)4,C upon the House. Now it was rather re-
d oable that the Hon. Gentleman sometime
SPIT $4ll ed au office in the Board of Controul him-
fr4att.d at that time not a word had been heard
;---II„.1,1.141 against places and patronage.—(Cheers.)
43 soon as he retired from that office, and
AiPdtne elevated to the seat which he now occu-
leti,' and which he (Lord C.) hoped lie would
4i);c°4tillue to occupy, the Hon. Member fell
Rr'f,at the discovery, that to hold a place was a
Lenormity, and one which he could not suf-
iellstlY reprobate.—(Hear !)—He trusted the
ver
was not much surprised by the Hon.
"r 4 y per's exhibition, because this was the third
I, of •
h Its representing the same scene. Indeed
f
r:atioal Performed his part with such trifling va-
ne t's) that it was hardly possible for it to pass
oflaugh.)—The Hon. Member for
th:oster had certainly come to the assistance
ileo• Gentleman, and thus they had some
''('r',,,in.°.velty produced. But that Hon. Hem-
(liffqeit'ws and his (Lord C.) were so entirely
em-
So Ot) that lie could not hope to obtain any
41
U,
I/entering the field of argument with him.
41r43,if Qnouiable Member frequently silenced
Ovl a
'a iii that House with considerable talent
le great deal of civility ; but for the reason
liised I))
e ore assigned, he did not feel dis-
h to enter into what had fallen from
erg Therefore, the two Honourable Mem-
-I.l4;'ui,st still have their prologue to them-
-IT, 'f° they certainly would not induce him
11A 1414`-castlreagh) to appear upon their stage._
,Poa tgn.)—He did not at all feel himself called
l'tcti° answer what had been put to him re-
;otlouj.the removal of Lord Fife. It was the
.1, t to
.1-ed prerogative of the Crown to appoint
,„"04504 remove all its officers at will. For this
' he neither owed it to one Hon. Member
j‘l till°ther to makeexplanations upon this head.
" sa
to e time he was riot so ignorant of the
0f rnthe country as not to know that only a
!ifes?.,ars ago Honourable Gentlemen opposite
Ihd
ET7Anto enter into office, at a time of difficulty
_tieting,esriNvithout having the appointment of
feeti,_sg ousehold.—(Loud cries of" Hear !")
l° e lion. Gentle
men would not accept
~e~y
,without having the nomination of the Offi-
Rze iniotediatelY about the King's person, even
IC alai
. ,
lilt is wisnes and feelings, he was cu.-
11potlY 1,1,0 et called upon to answer their inquiries
it th present iptestion. He allowed- that
abo'ls quite iiecesai y that those immediately
i)l'olessllaitt.iTecoCrnrznoveontt should have common princi-
1, mote to views.—(Hear !)—lt was im-
g9B e° if they were all pulling different
ail • • ut he h
it thitu, to_ ad not heard the Noble Lord say
04es.eta,t; whehahtadhad been attributed to him.
been dismissed from his
)-and it waS kO9Wit that he voted against

the Malt Tax ; but it Is as not said by him that
one was the consequence of the other. But he
had no hesitation in saying, that after the Go-
vernn►ent had put its existence upo❑ the resolu-
tion of which the Malt Tax was a leading fea-
ture, to oppose that Tax was acting upon a prin-
ciple as broadly different from that on which the
Government acted, as any two principles could
be. A vote against that tax, was, in fact, a vote
for the dismissal of Ministers. It was quite com-
petent for the Crown to dismiss any of its offi-
cers, and no less so for Ministers to advise that
dismissal.
Mr. CALCRAFT explained. lie did not com-
plain of the removal of Lord Fife, but of the
cause assigned for the Noble Earl's having been
removed.

Mr. TIERNEY professed he was never more
surprized than by the production this night of
the Resolution which had just been submitted by
the Honourable Member for Appleby. There had
never been more ample preparation made for a
debate on the Army Estimates than had been
made on this occasion by the Hon. Member be-
hind him, who had with laudable industry col-
lected and laid on the table a variety of intelli-
gence upon the subject. Instead of entering
upon this question, he was astonished to find a
Resolution proposed of an extraordinary length
and going to inculpate Ministers upon various
different points, each of which would in his mind
furnish ample subject of debate of itself. He
was he confessed not prepared to go into the sub-
ject 9f this Resolution without requiring some
previous information to guide him in forming his
decision, especially as the resolution embraced so
many different topics. So far he thought the
Noble Lord had a right to complain of the
mode of proceeding adopted this evening. At
the same time he would say, that no Administra-
tion ought to be trusted that would not go a great
way and make very great concession as to the
relief of the public burdens. He could not help
observing that the case of Lord Fife's dismissal
was very inopportunely introduced on this oc-
casion. If what had been urged were true, it
would be fitter to make it a serious ground of
impeachment of Ministers.—(Hear, hear !)—He
thought it more prudent and becoming at the
present to refrain from any allusion to any pos-
sible existing cause of discord in the Councils of
his Majesty, for obvious reasons.—(Hear !)
After defending, shortly, the conduct of the Ad-
ministration, of which he formed a part in 1807,
relative to the appointments in the Household,
he said, he, without pledging himself one way or
the other to the subjects detailed in the Resolu-
tion, thought the House ought at once to go into
the consideration of the Army Estimates.
Mr. G. BE` NETT said that he considered the
three propositions contained in his Hon. Friend's
resolution to be fully made out and supported
by facts. He hoped the Resolution would be
pressed, for he should be unhappy if his name
did not go forth to the public as supporting it. If
there were only two who voted for it, he would
be one of them.

Lord A. HAMILTON could not support the Re-
solution in its present state. With respect to
Lord Fife, he was evidently impressed with the
conviction that his office had been forfeited in
consequence of his vote ; yet he (Lord A. H.)
did not conceive that the Noble Earl had any
means of proving that such was the case. The
Noble Lord condemned Ministers for the part
which he believed they had taken in his Lord-
ship's removal.

Mr. CREEVEY in explanation said, that in the
Resolution he had merely- stated the fact, that
Lord Fife had declared in his place, that he was
dismissed from his office for the vote he had given.
The House then divided—
For Mr. Creevey's motion - 36
Against it _ - 120

Majority _ -94
Ott our re-admission to the Gallery, we found
Mr. HumE on his legs ; he was determined,
he said, to move in the same orbit as his lion.
Friend (Mr. Creevey), while his efforts were
directed, as they had hitherto been, to a reduc-
tion of the public expenditure. lie regretted
the result of the division that had just then taken
place, and the manner in which some Hon. Mem-
bers on his side of the House excused themselves
for voting against the Resolution. The motion
he now meant to propose was such as no Member
could refuse his assent to with a fair conscience,
or in justice to the country. Ile should make
no_allusion to the amount of military force, but
confine himself strictly to the civil departments
connected with that branch of public expendi-
ture. In the year 1792, the whole expence of
these departments was 45,9001. a year ; at pre-
sent it was no less than 133,0001., making an
increase of 87,0001. This was a monstrous ex-
penditure in the seventh year of peace, and
when the country was labouring under so
much distress. He should consider it his duty,
day after day, to submit to the House mo-

tions similar -to those he had so frequently
brought forward, until such time as they agreed
to a revisal of the existing establishments. He
would now read an extract from the Sixth Report
of the Finance Committee in 1817, and move
that it should be an instruction to the Committee
to take into consideration the recommendations
contained in it. Up to the present moment, the
Reports of the Finance Committee remained a
dead letter; he was therefore warranted in re-
ferring the recommendations contained in this
Sixth Report to their serious attention.--(Mr.
Hume then read the extract. It recommended
that the Treasury should call for a return of all
civil offices, the salaries of which had been in-
creased within 15 years, that the same should be
revised, and such reductions made as appeared
reasonable. The Report went on to state, that
the progressive increase of salaries for length of
service was liable to great abuse; that the whole
arrangement grew to its present extent without
any fixed plan, and was applied to messengers,
barrack masters, and others who were not en-
titled to the benefit of it. It recommended that

the increase of salaries for length of service
should cease, except with respect to clerks who had
served seven years, who within the said seven years
had received no promotion, and whose increase of
salary after that period should not extend beyond
20 per ceut.)—By voting that this should be an in-

struction to the Committee, the House would
not pledge itself to any amount of reduction, but
merely show a disposition to act upon a pi inciple
of economy where it could be properly intro-
duced. Hitherto Ministers had acted in total
disregard of the recommendations contained in
this Report. He would not trouble the House
further, but move, that .!..; extract now read be
an instruction to the Committee.
Lord A. Hamilton seconded the motion. His
Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) seemed to direct a hos-
tile observation to him, when he remarked that
some who opposed the last motion were search-
ing fol. motives to justify their votes. He (Lord
A. II.) searched for no motives. his reason for
opposing it was, that he did not consider the mo-
tion consistent with the fact, that Lord Fife
did not state in his place what the Resolution
contained. With respect to the present question,
he should be better pleased if the instruction to
the Committee was somewhat shorter. Perhaps,
however, it would be better to leave it as it
stood. He saw no disposition on the other side
of the House to discuss any proposition for a re-
duction of expenditure. , The Noble Lord con-
cluded by referring to some instances, which he
condemned, of superannuations granted, before
the persons to whom they . were so granted had
been disqualified for service.
The question being put from the Chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
if the Hon. Gentleman or the Noble Lord sup-
posed that nothing had been done by Ministers
upon the Report in question, the' must have
examined the papers on the table with very slight
attention. Those papers sheaved that a conside-
rable reduction of offices had taken place, and he
could assure the house that other reductions
were under consideration. The Treasury had
given a general direction that every new vacan-
cy in an office. shoUld be duly returned ; and if
upon inquiry it had been found that the office
could be dispensed with, consistently with the
public service, it has always been suppressed.—
(llear, hear, hear!)—Any sudden and premature
reduction would be not only an injustice to
individuals but a danger to the public service;
and he begged the House to consider the ob-
vious distinction.,between the grant of new allow-
ances and the disturbance of those which were
already possessed by, individuals, and which con-
stituted a part of their income. Allowances of
this description could not be considered by any
sweeping rule ; and he was sure that a desire of
economy would not induce the House to sacrifice
the public service by substituting in official situa-
tion; persons of an inferior class to those of edu-
cation and respectability who at
.present filled
those situations. It should be borne in mind that
those were situations of great confidence, that
they exposed the holders of them to much temp-
tation ; and the House would think mal-practice
in office but ill repaid by an injudicious saving.
The augmentations were proportioned to the in
crease of labour. The return of peace had
undoubtedly reduced the labour of many
situations, and it was wished by the Govern-
ment that labour and allowance should be
as proportioned as possible. To enter into in-
dividual cases would be a waste of the time of
the House, especially as they could be discussed
to more advantage in the Committee. With re-
spect, however, to the case of Mr. Harrison, he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could himself
bear testimony to the meritorious services of that
Gentleman, wha at present was suffering under a
severe affliction ; a circumstance which he was
sure would, if known to the Noble Lord, have
induced him to refrain from unnecessarily intro-
ducing his name. At present he should not go
into individual details, but he could assure the
House, generally, that there was no desire on
the part of Government to avoid an examination
into every case in the regular way. Sweeping
attempts at "reduction, however, would, he re-
peated, affect the public service, and be an injus-
tice to individuals. There was every disposition
on the part of Government gradually to give
effect to the Report of the Committee of Fi,
nance.

Sir. J. NEWPORT, adverting to the office of
Barrack-Master-General of Ireland, observed,
that it appeared from a Report of the Commit-
tee of 1810 or 1811, that there was a considera-
ble deficiency in the accounts of that public
officer (Lord Tyrawly.)
Mr. D. BROIVNE defended the character of
Lord Tyrawly, than whom there was not a more

meritorious officer in the service. The Noble
Lord had fully cleared himself from the charge
which had been made against him.
Sir J. NEWPORT, in explanation, observed, that
he meant to cast no imputation upon the charac-
ter of Lord Tyrawly ; he had only stated a
fact which appeared from the Report of the Com-
mittee.

Mr. W. POLE said, that the circumstance al-
luded to respecting Lord Tyrawly occurred while
he (Mr. Pole) was in office in Ireland. It was
found, that not that Noble Lord, but some per-
sons under him, were unwilling to return in their
accounts. He was, however, happy to state, that
Lord Tyrawly had, since that period, made up
his accounts much to his honour, and that there
was a balance in his favour---(Hear, hear !)
Mr. ELLICE expressed a hope that some m,,a-
sure would be introduced to amend the Bill of
the Honourable Member for Corfe Castle (we
believe Superaunuations Bill). The provisions
of that Bill were annually a most enormous charge
to the country. The Honourable Member was

of opinion, that it would he wiser and more ex-
pedient to postpone entering into a discussion of
the Estimates in detail, until the House went into
a Committee.

Mr. IlusrussoN suggested to the Hon. Mover
of the Resolution whether it would not be more
convenient to withdraw the motion, and to move
that the whole of the Finance Report, from
which he had taken his extract, should be refer-
red to the Committee?

Mr.lltlmE said he would gladly accede to any
thing which suited the convenience of the House,
but tl►e lion. Member would recollect that the
Report in question was upon the Navy, and
therefore he did hot wish to refer it to a Com-
mittee upon the Army Estimates.

After a few words from Mr. liusKissoN and
Mr. W. SMITH,
Mr..llt,NtE withdrew his motion, and it was
ordered that the Sixth Finance Report be le-
ferred to a Committee.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The Speaker having left the Chair, the House
resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.
Lord PALm ERSTON proposed that a sum not ex-
ceeding 50,4181. 16s. Bd. be. granted for the
charge and allowances of the office of Secretary of
War for this year. •
Colonel DAN-us, after complimentino- Lord
Pahnerston upon the manner in which he con-
ducted the official duties of his office, objected to
the grant ; the expence of this office was At pre-
sent one-third more, and in some instances double
what it was in 1806, when the.duties of it were
tenfold more than they now are. The whole
sum voted for this office in 1806, was 25,0001.
and now that sum was more than doubled, though
the country was in a state of profound peace.
The lion. Member proceeded to detail the
various branches in which an increase of
expenditure had taken place since 1806,
and amongst others alluded to the sala-
ries of clerks. The salary of the senior
clerk had been raised from 12001. to 14001. a
year. The next clerk had been raised from
10001. to 12001.; two others, who had before a
salary of 11001. between them, had been raised
to 16001. A General Officer in the Army was
allowed 4001. a year, and a Clerk in a Public
Office was allowed 1400/. a year. He would ask
the Committee whether this was to be borne
After some further observations to the same
effect, the lion. Member concluded with moving,
"as an Amendment, that the sum of 45,0001.
should be substituted in the room of b 0,4181.
16s. Bd.
Lord PALMERSTON maintained, that even
taking the year 1806 as the standard, the pre-
sent estimate could not be objected to on the
ground of extravagance ; for in 1806 the ex-
pence of the office amounted to 50,832/. 3s. 11d.
whereas it was now 50,4181. Besides, there
was no office established at that time for the
bringing up of arrear accounts, as there was at
present. It was clear, then, that there was a
reduction amounting to more than the whole
charge of the arrear accounts department, as
compared with 1806.
Colonel DAVIES said he would stake his cred

on the assertion that the charge for this depart-
ment in 1806, did not exceed 25,000/.
Mr.' HUME thought he 'could shew that the
Noble Lord had increased the expence of his
office in every way ; and that even if he had
20,0001. more allowed to him, he would find
employment for it according to his present sys-
tem. The Hon. Member then entered into a
statement, to shew that-the establishment of the
War Office had, increased progressively from
1814 down to the.present period ; and complain-
ed that the, whole of the accounts of the office
were audited .by the Noble Lord (Palmerston)
himself. lie was of opinion that the ex pence of
the office might safely be reduced one-half; but,'
as half a loaf was better than no bread, he would'
support the Amendment of his Hon. Friend.
Lord PALmr.aszoN defended the existing ar-
rangements of his office, and maintained that
every possible reduction had been made, con-
sistently with the public interests.
Sir H. PARNELL complained of the amount of
the superannuation list, and also of the amount of
the Paymaster's establishment. He complained
of the number of officers connected with the mili-
tary establishments, which he considered by far
too expensive. The Hon. Baronet particularly
referred to the establishment of Commissioners of
Military Accounts in Dublin. It seemed to him
there was a determination on the part of those
persons connected with the whole of the military
system to resist every species of reformation, and
every plan that might be likely to promote eco-
nomy. If the whole matter were examined, with
a view to get rid of the present system, many
offices might be consolidated, others got rid of
altogether, and much expence saved to the public.
Lord PALMERSTON Said, that the Irish Bot-erd
for examining military accounts was established
by Act of Parliament.
After a few words from Mr. WM. Sivurn and
Colonel DAVIES,
Mr. GREY BENNET said, that no answer what-
ever was made by the Noble Lord upon the in-
crease of compensations. The compensations in
1807 amounted to 67711. They now amount to
upwards of 13,000/.
Capt. 111.inr.at,y said, that he would under-
take to prove, that if the Government took into

their own hands the payment of the troops, a sum
of 15,0001. half the stun charged, would be saved
to the public.

Lord PALMERSTON contended that Agents,
particularly to regiments abroad, were of great
service and accommodation, particularly to infe-
rior officers.

Capt. MABERLY said that the answer of the
Noble Lord seemed to him extremely weak. The
public were not to be put to great expence for the
accommodation of a few officers.
Mr. 'l'. WILSON said, that so strongly did he
feel the necessity of economy, that he would vote
with the Hon. Gentleman opposite.
Mr. CREEVEY was of opinion that the Committee
were bound to go more, fully into detail.—(A
laugh)—lle saw by the Estimates that the Dc-

puty Secretary of War had a salary of 2,500/.
The salary of the First Clerk, 1,4001. The
Principal Clerk 1,200/. lie had a great curiosity
to see a Clerk with a salary of 1,4001. a year.—(A
laugh.)--He would wish to know at what hours
these Clerks attended at their offices, and whe-
ther they went there in curricles or in tilburies
--(A laugh ?)—The most distinguished and suc-
cessful men in the army—men who were made
Peers, had not more than 2000/. a year. Gene-
rals who had been a long time in the service, had
about 7001. a year. Major-Generals had but
5001., whilst clerks had some 1400/., and some
1200/. a year.—(Hear, hear!)—He did not know
whether he could just at that time have these
clerks brought before the House, but have them
they must.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. O'GRADY approved of the system of su-
perannuation, though he thought some abuses

. .
had crept into it. As to the Equitation.Schoo4
he thought it required revision. ,He observed itt
that department one individual, with an extraor-
dinary salary for the nature of the service---
18001. a vear.
Lord I.3.A.ListnitsTON" said, the Gentleman who
had been alluded to was the nearest relative of a _
distinguished hero who had fallen in battle, Sir
J. Moore, and in fixing his allowance, whichwas;"
done about the time of Sir .L Moore's death*,
Some regard was had to that circumstance, .as be
was almost the only individual to whom therewas
an opportunity of &hewing national gratitude...—.
(Haar l)
Mr. O'GRADY explained.—Colonel DiviE3
thought it extraordinary that at the end of.-the
war it should have been found out that our ca,
valry could not ride.

. .
Sir R. WILSON observed, that the Equitation: ":
School should be merely. temporary,..as •there*
were riding-masters and rough-riders attached
each regiment, who when once instructed could
teach the recruits.--After a - few words the
House divided—
For the Amendment - - 67
Against it - - - 106
Majority 39 •
The original motion was then agreed to.
I'Vhen strangers were re-admitted into...ttie..
Gallery, the House had resumed. The other.
Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at Two o'CLocK. to Monday...