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it, nin ask a better. With respeti to Clinging the. ' Mr. STuaGEs BOURNE said, that the -Hon. Cell- veis have been entered into. Taxation has been
Period of the duration of Parliament, he was neither 'fierist) (Mr. Brand) had faded to establish the fret the result of an eighteen eye
war, in whieh the
in favouy of it nor strongly averse to it. That was of the evils sustained from the present state of the public money hasdst been lavished, .and in which Mi-
tathet a measure of regulation than of reform, and . -Constitution. He did not know when the opinions nisters have not proved themselves good stewards
• his Hon. Friend might as well move for leave to of the House were different from those Of the cowl to the people. When one thinks that Ministers
bring in a bill to shorten the duration of Parliament try. Ihwas not unusual for Gentletnen in the warmth - may command votes, if they are about
to nil,
as Move for a Committee on the subje&. He thought of debate to think so, but the truth of the position dertake a rash war, and wish to screen a, delirF•
It specific bill'had better be brought in for reforming did not follow. It had been sail that in the case of quency, the only caeae teeich presents itself for such
Parliament altogether,- than that the 'sulje6t :should Sir Fianeis Burdett, the grounds of his committal an evil is the present ' misrepresentation of the
be referred-to a Committee,. for the reason he had were contrary to Magna Charta. o
, This eppears ra- people, which-can only, beeeed
already given. That the House, .constituted as it tiler extraordinary when we refit& n the case of Gen. the principles of the. Constitumtion;e dby looking into
. To te being.
`sat present, sometimes 'came to a decision which ; Clavefing,when Sir F. Burdett then sat in the House, nominated to a Borough he did not imputeh any dis-
e public did not approve •01, he admitted; but ' and voted for the arrest, which toek place at mid- grace; hehiaisellwould have no objetticin thus" to
would his Hon. Friend undertake to say that that night, by 'a messenger who eetered his chamber,—a seat i Parli. With peat what
*could-never be the case if Parlianient were altered,. ' Where was Magna •Charta then ? Was the state of !
was said on the subjectament of the Peersres being ato virtual
according to his plan ? Was he certain that iii that the Constitution better than it is now ? The same -representation, it was not recolletted that their num-
case such a circumstance would never occur again ? Hon. Baronet, in a publication of his, has seised. that ber was •inct ised. The Member • fel. Yorkshire
Were they to be boundeo their constituents by inden- - from William the Conqueror to William the Third, has told a great thing which the little can read,:
Tcure? -If so, instead of continuing to be the House the state of the Constitution was well ; but since ' namely, that it is necea-dry to examine both sides of
Commons, they- would become a Congress of that time it has degenerated. But what wae‘the the question. Perhaps he might go into thy.-Upper
Ambassadors. If each were to follow the wishes nature of Parliament in former times ? Did it not Howe for having voted with Ministers ; he might.
of hisindk idual constituents they wpuld form ra- !.eonsist of men chiefly dependant on the Monarch ? 4 think himself promoted, though in reality that might
tiler an individual representation of their constitu- Gentlemen did not recollect that the greater part of not be the case. Suppose a Ret resentative to have
eats than . a representation of the feelings of the - Magna Charta was for the regulation a services, been regularly chosen, and his Constituents should'
the great mass of the peOple as at present. If they and
of the Church. He was far from undervaluing instrutt him 'to aet in a manner inconsistent with
Rent to the original plan, they n.ust go tolthat pro- it, although he believed it would not have been now .
the iudependence of his
_principles, and he should
Posed by an Hon. Baronet last year, and allow a of material use Without_ the Habeas Corpus Act. j boldly and ututfully comp forward, and refuse to
tote to every one p lying assessed taxes. Before the He never knew the representation to be more po- art so ; on the o her hand, suppose a delegate by
present war there were no assessed taxes. if such pular . than it was at pregent. It should be recut. 'nomination,, on an important question, . voting Sc.
4 System were adopted, and it by any happy chance leckd how much the number of Censtituents are •r cording to the will' of his patron, and ._obeying in
those taxes should be taken eff, there would then be increased. In the time of Henry the Sixth, 40s, the-feelings of a man the dictates
of honour. He
'lO electors, They must then allow those who paid per annum constituted a freeholder; a Sum, then, f requested the House to look attentively at both
41 sort of taxes to hold the elective franchise, and of so much value, that even hi the reign of Queen these 'pictures. Au lion. Gentleman said that There
tact would go to admitting the right of universal .. Anne it was estimated to be equal to t2l. then. Un- . are in this House many of the Army and Navy"; es
'llfrrar. There was not a man they met in the der such a regulation it was no wonder the number to the LaweLe himself. knew there was a'great num- •
street, however poor he mthi be, who did not of constituents should have increased. In the case oft ber. Th.: House should recollect the people were-
kecontribute something to the revenue of the country.. ; taxation, he did not know what individual interest
ever ready to choose Naval Commanders tor their
could not buy, a coat, a hat, or a pair of : the House lied; it was composed of m geritleen of Representatives; Westminster el
had el a gallant
!henlanes, without paying taxes. -How were they property who were all equally liable to it, and-in- ' Lord behind' hits i Lord Gardner
.acid Lord Hood
to collect the votes? If in Westmine'er. dur- deed he had always observed a wish to prevent ite. ~ were likewise chosefi. He_believed that the indispo-
e_4l the time of an. election, all was uproar- and weight falling on the lower orders. With respeet '-''' sitiop of the people against the House of Commons
infusion, how would it be if such an arrange- to the•petitions already received they could not be . was great, and that the necessity of a Reform was
Brent. were made ? To collect the voice ."of the : satisfied, for it was remarkable that the few which verygeeetaily admitted. What now remains, atter
tlthole':nation would be unpossibie,,and it it could, , belie been prevented wish for the adoption of Sir considerine America and France? Did .Prussia re-.
trey would. in effect but take the ele&ive franchise F. Burdett 's plan, which is universal suffrage, and not form ? Did Spain ? no; thee, haVe fallen because
liPtin one body of Ele&ors to give it to another.— the pun of the Hon. Gentleman. The experiment they did not reform.—Did Sicily ? no;' and it will
rat4l,'Phy should this be done ? 'What pledge-bad they ;'had been trit:d its France, but there the Legislative fall yet; notwithstanding our assistance. In Ireland
lelthose to whom they gave it would make a bet- . Assembly absorbed the whole power. • He heard, a Committee was appointed to take the subjealmto
use of it than those 'they deprived • of:, it. ? with the greatest astonishment, the statement-of an consideration, but no return) was effeaed, till the
I`, it were impossible to go back to the real theory of Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Newport) reseeding the (.on- ; country was Merged 'in the Union. The Honeur.
tgeConstitution, what did the Hon.Gentletnan-mean -stitution of America. He had authorities froneye- : able Gentleman adjured the House to accede to the
es° do ?. If even his Reform should be effeeted, it. witnesses of the extent of its errors. It was said motione of his Hon. Friehd, as calculated to pro._
;ierAlst be by that Parliament which he calls ineffi- . that no honest tradesman would sieffer a Member -of !- duce the best possible good. He could add little
it.. }le. had another radical objealion to the mo., , Congress to come into his shop; besides there is the ; to the reasoning which had been advanced by- his
. • „sk)11, which was that the people „tie vested with a . 'testimony of a Noble Lord iie the other House, cur- • Hon. Friend. The same reasons which'
operated on
;ledcared power in the right: of election. He depte- - roborating the failure of the experiment ; there the !. hi} mind in 1793 and. in 1797, when he had given
every species of innoVations, and believed that simple question was, whether the representation i his support ti a modOe for Parliament-try .Itetorm,
oeen in case-this improvement was to take place, the should be of the populace, or of men of property.-- I now presented them Selves again, with thealiffet ence
th°Ple would have no more respeCt for the new' Considering the present state of the country, he that as he conceived at the Cornier periods a Reform
I,an they have for the old. He hoped the:measure thought the, House should not be, anxious to enter i absolutely necessary, sebSequent events bad render- _
.qtght not be adopted on the grounds of the universal into a discussion 'of such a nature. ' -I ed it particularly. so. In 1793 it had been urged in
!/Gs s that the people. should be satisfied, inasmuch . Mr. WARDLE said, that. he had in memory what ' objection to any 'radical change in the representa-
it- wee, morally impossible to satisfy those eh° his Hon. Friend who way now a -Trisoner in the tion that the awful changes then about taking' place
we,
.e determined not- to be satisfied.. It was likewise rower proposed. He offered two posfeions, one to :on the Continent of Europe would render such a
at he
e eupossible that any specified plan could be framed, abridge-- tile duration of Parliaments and another to measure highly .dangerous, however the popular
'e,r the Constitution, which was likely to meet the : abolish those-Members, who v./ere not feitlifill re- ' feeling might run -in favour of it. -- It had then
11-4isfaaien of the people in preference to the pre- ' presenlatives of the people, tie was positive it was - been stated that the 'necessity was great, because
etits He was decided to vnte against the motiOu. never his intention to suppress any plan which the expenditure VV s- at ten millions, amid that in
tl-Sir S. NEwpoici. asked those who deprecated in- might be adduced. preferable to his own He ad- point Of feet the House could: not exist, unless .
4‘ratioes, on whst ground, and on what principle ' mitted - that tho-(.;onstitueut Body was enlarged in some Reform took plaie. If that were rale, the
,they. toot away the votes from Aylesbury and gave proportion to the extension of property. In the ' • cases then how onech more . cla_l it nce-,1 reforma-
,e4tn to other districts ? Was it not on the ground of reign of • Henry the Eighth it was first thought lioa %ellen at twenty millions ; but •it the House
elk— • ' ,
n:trse t lt,was on this principle his Hon. Friend necessary to give a representation to the people; regarded the: expenditure at the present moment,
110'endsd Submitting this motion for a - Committee i an enormous weight of taxation succeeded. Of greater be and
,example than at any former pc-
,desthe House. His noble Friend had instanced the all the Acts of Parliament he believed the Septet}- ;rued, there ebuld be little for him 'to add to
Cerert state of the Constitution of America; he nial Ad to be most_ arbitrary ;he thought a stand- cons ince them, that in complying with the Wishes
ed. totally with him, in respect to the real ing Army and 4 standing Parliament could not be of the people they were only securing the Con-
tict; there the people are goveined to their satietac-- supported.. He heartily concurred With the motion. ' stitotitio. He. would suppose, House
_ ,P,---their taxes ate small,—their debts diminish- Mr. WHITBREAD rose to state the reasons which so blind as to suppose (hnotit' the resour thcee sof the
i, ---and .the
.pubeic,burthens lightened; with all s induced him to agree to the motion. It was a sub-, country were finite. If then they •thought, on !esc circumstances, he asked the House, were not , jest which had been frequently agitated in that , contrary, that at least there must be a limitation !
to
e ends of the Revolution fully answe:ed ? His : House; it had been recommended by the highest ' the expenditure, they must be fully persuaded that
Ilit?ble Friend stated, that we must recall the propo- i authorities ; it was ohe of the questions proposed •! the immediate adoption. of the propositioreof his
haWould
which an Hon. Baronet made last year, or 1 by Mr. Pitt, which alone he considered a recom- : Hon. Friend o ould be the most desirable measure,
th_ Would do nothing at all ; without going into i mendation. Whatever Might be- the propriety of i With respecit tb the sale of seats in 'Parliameet,
.4.'4 plan, he woUld vote for the Committee. He i the motion, the necessity of Reform seemed to °lase i which had been urged as one of the abuses in the
,t7i: . not wish to pull the Constitution down, he , taro universal assent; and to the candour and abi-', i Representation, it-was abvious that a person return-
414ned to give it Reform ;—of this several Gentle- 1 lily of the Hon. Gentleman who introduced it toe . ed under that means could not feel that he was the '
Clitlite,P. last Session acknowledged and acquiesced in'the ! high a It:butts 'could not be paid.. He could not ' real Representative of the people, but must be per.
Y, eat the same time they said they did not help thinking that Gentlemen who had ansWered , sUed:.d, that instead of repeesenting the people, he
tooow how far it 'might "go; if this opinion was 'still . his Honourable Friend, had not' dealt fairly with . was, hi really, representing himself, or in other
~
..
sal Prevail,: the Constitution might remelt, in the him, notwithstanding his explanatinn. respectiug wolds, tee,soool. with which he had purchased his
ailsbeing
way for ever, without the remedies for its : time Walcheren business. He (Mr. Whitbread) was seat. An Hon, Gentleman had made some obser-
tais's being applied. The Noble Lerd said that in the person who glte him the advice he alluded to, vatioes on the Septennial Ael ; that Ael, in his opie.
to e oha numerous election it would be impossible . and to which he was good enough to listen, and to nion, abstractedly considered, was the most tyrat-
ttlipke the poll ien the contrary he thought it fulluw. If Gentlemen were to sty that the motion nical Aa that had hen framed, although the
for -
tollt be done with the greatest facility, and that sprung out of the events of the last few weeks, and House, when it was passed professed to have no
_ut h improvement might be made by voting in resulted from the committal of Sir F. Burdett, in'
other objeet in view than to noted the House of
11'._s !lets. W p
ith respect to the representation of Ire- the name of his. Hon. Friend he would deny Such Brunswick, yet by rendering the House for so many
/.I"nu.s the, greatest - advantage resulting
.from the an assertion. The subjea had long since been egi- years unaccountable to the people, they became as
eoi,,"n was its amendment or) that head. He' did not tated, and at various times; it
,was Mr. Pitt's fa- it were independent of then). If Parliament could
fat de kith the opinion that the House was goii-g vourite object, and since he came into Partial-tient again refer to triennial representation,• and make a
tht_ner than it ought in going into a Committee; he he was acquainted with it. In 1793 he had first • reform in the 'alteration, in the manner of taking.,
ye,'',ght it would be better than bringing the sub- voted for it, and again. in 1797; ande if an im- Votes, much good might arise, without-it little good
to`:Lat once under view. He gave his perfect assent possibility of attendance had not, prevented him could be expected, the same pernicious consequences
Sir
motioe.. . , from being present at Sir Francis' Burdett's mo- which had arisen under the septennial ACt must en-
Ivii! JAMES PULTEMEIr observed, that one of the ' Con, he would have' voted for it then too.-- sue.' It was true' that by a Reform you could not
.:
eoZesl notions he had heard was; that the House Gentlemen had gone quite into extremes. - -If .get intrinsically better men, but you would attain ,
rei.." not be too independent of the CrOwn., If this h:s ' Honourable
_Friend thought his proposition men whn, aeting under other cirepmstances than
tiv'e'dxvere establishel, it must become a representa- I was new, he would have at once moved a plan , mere, ssltieh views, might be produetive of much
etnoceacy• The Hon. Gentleman who had ' of Reform ; instead of w-liich,' of er the .exaniple gdod. 'uch had been said of the necessity of many
'titre,
(g reluted the motion had dwelt much on the evils iof Mr. Pitt, he asked for a Committee. .In those: .of the servants of the Cristvn being precluded from
tl:Zta ~..'_overnonents but if there appeared in the present parts of the world alluded to by an Honourable Gen- seats in. Parliement, and 'he thought that if that was
earee degree of regard for civil liberty, in tleman, he denied that' reform had a fair expert- attended to, the people would- be better satisfied,
xvoo,o,oe proposed, it. must follow that the People ! ment, In America he had talked of a-Member of because they naturally imagined that as servants they,
viral 'a be more desirable to live under it. The prin- ; 'Congress in a 'very extraordinary ,manner. If he were dependent on the'Crown and consequently in
3.
Seeviargument appears rather extraordinary. •It ' could prodece records of its havt;,:i.fitded, there are giving their votes were to a certain degree influ-
kr ' s that the expedition to Walcheren is a reason • teller recoeis of its having succee'ded. What, was . enced. The Hon. Gentleman concluded .with ex-
oe . .
nil
He hat
He did not see how,any Reform could :it then merely an experiment ? No; it was not an pressing his firm conviction that in acceding to the
Is ti Ministera to conduel an expedition better. ' eeperiment, it was a creation arising from- necessity, pepular Wishes Much benefit was likely tcraccruee
Vede're People wished to carry on a war, it was never ' and produced by Mr. Pitt, who declared that if Par- that the people would most cheerfully. pay a million
the . 'aken unless as the war of the people. As Alamein had been reformed,- the 'American war, that , of taxes in case of Reform, which, in :
to it inease.re proposed was dangerous, he objeCted fatal war, which changed the aspeet of all Europe, ' construetion o the present
f the House, they demurred to pay. J
I,kr w - would not have take place. America -changed her 'Mr. CaNtatNnaletvede that the main question '
Alon r,,. " • JACOB conceived that the object of the Government.; and, notwithstanding the anatheinas . which the 'House were called upon to decide was,
(tar • 'mkt-nail's Motion wasehe aboliiien of Mem- .of Hon. Gentlemen, she succeettd, inasmuch as. ' Whether it wad more desirable that in future they
s
the Who represented small boroughs, and to extend the charatc,ter of him who ordered it Was- excellent, ! ihould' be
_ditfereetlY consti•uted, or whether they
teuienght of representation to those places whose inasmuch as Washiugton WI,S the patent of a.Go- i should remain. It was e qeestion which required
!lie d once and population entitle them to such. In vernment pure as his own heart, inasmuch as Ame-'1 much deliberation, and he should like to have much
die° ee'inst on the meets of the Walcheren Expe- rich was then as she is pow, threatening to rival ' better information than he at present really .pos,
Iv 0, if ~
► . .
ilueerhe:bsent,l,lohsee
"U:ho. represented small boroughs this country. There the Hon. Gentleman can find , sensed, before he coiild venture to give his vote to'
as confident it would be the sgme; no parallel for his assertions. But in France, what ; any altet at ion iti ihe constit utioenl formation of
Oki oon abolition would not have affected it. He - was the necessity there ?--the Government was not Pad:ankle, the exPerisinent of m skin g any innovae
bossibt wish to set his face against Reform • it was reformed;- in spite of advice and ex postulation there tio was certainly very eteil . mad- but the )racti-
II
Le
to (I. .• I • b diminution•'
le la:llns ) corruption by the of I. came the which shook all 1 hen , caller esult ot the expereuent was not so easily aseer-
liouse:Penees Of an elect on. He requested the the experiment was not fairly tried. In 1 Sae3 and tallied, the ronsequences might be extremely dar•
ti,.c -te rectified that the great Lord-CirathaM was • 1797, Mr; Pitt stated, that if there had been a Re- ' gerous." Much li .d been said of the dissatisfaCtion
ea lte , ' •
, .. , ,
i Presentative of Old Sarum.
.1 form, the war with France and Anler;Ca would ne- 1. which 'geuerslly • prevailed- throughout the country

f 0..
a.; to the: present formation Of this--Fronse:
man was at riberty to utter hiS dwti erttitsiettts Upoft
that head; and 'thervfOre he must be illoWCti to :!Ay-
that his opinion individually was, that tio §tich'dis-;
satisfaetion really doeS exist. It was .true-chit
very stnall portion of the cothriatinity had adopted
something like dissatisfaelion, td which they had
been urged by other persons, who were anxiouS only
for the opportunity of defaming the Hous2! ttf Corns
mons, with the expectation of being able to 6Cstroy
it. The party thus seeking to overthrdw the Honse
were, in comparison of nutribeit, small, with those
of a different temperno danger was to be apprets
trended from -their efforts,they were harmless in
point pf numbers, and contemptible, from the wild
and chimerical notions they possessed on the subjed
of what they termed Reform—they seemed to wish
to have a HoUse of Commons which should, like.
the rod of the Prophet, swallow up`tile other
branches of the Legislatureithq could not consent
that the other branches should have a co-ordinate
jutisdidion. It was, however, the opinion of
some tespedable men of great learning and talsrtei
among which be could name'Sir James Mackin-
tosh, Who, •in giving their opinions of the Govern-
ment of France, previous to the Revolution; assert-
ed, that the authority of King and Lords; wh:in
placed in comparison with the authority of the re-
presentatives of the people, was rio more than as dust
thrown into the balance. This was the opinion of
'Sir lanes Maekintosh, and be regretted that 'at
any time of his life such an eminent man should-,
have held such a doCtrine. That Learned Gentleman
had, h,owever, subsequently endeavoured, as much as
lay in his power, to destrOy the effete which his for-
mer opinion bad been calculated to produce. It was
not to be wished that the power of the people should
.become para Mount to that of the Legislature; such
power would, if suffered to exist, lead to the most
dangerous consequences.• The objed which the-
Honourable Gentleman had in view by the present
motion, was to inquire in the Committee into the
nature and extent of the abuses which had crop; in,
aad, as he (Mr. C.) presumed, it then was in-
tended to provide some remedy for curingithem. If
sa, not think this House bad the authority,
being only one branch of the Legislature. Al-
though-of late a great deal had been sil of the ne-
cessity of Parham( nutty Reform, yet he could not
avoid recolleding, that when the people of a neigh-
bouring country, some years ,since began their re-
formation with a similaraleclaration, pretending the
greatest-resped to the Peers, and perserial attach-
ment to the Sur, reign. When the work of it:for-
mation had begun, and they had succeeded to a cer-
tain extent- in it, then the King and- the Lords
found that their security stood upon a very tot-
teritig
.basis. Men who, from the onset' of the
Revolution, proleised •to have the People's in-
terest at heart, and to support their cause, were,
removed for their influence_ and authority in the
State, and their successors brought on all the
anarchy and confusion which followed, and pro-
duced the horrors which subsequently attended the
French Revolution., Parliamentary Reform was
An unknown sea on which he did not like to venture
himself without ask pilo!, because be was at raid
he might be thrown upon an unknown Coast. It had
been argued that it was necessary, to have reform,
because all the other countties necessary.
Europe had
seen the bad effects of the want of it, and were
compelled to submit to the dictates of the arbitrary
tyrant. Was it 'not quite different ? Here Englaed
stood alone amidst the general shock unhurt and he
really bdievei because she had not undergone'a Re-
form in Parliament. It was by net 'adopting these
s.ecious innovations which were suggested by many
of the reformists that this country was preserved from
the calamitous fate which awaited the other nations
of Europe, which had thrown down other govern-
ments less stable and firm than the British Govern-
ment. It had been said in support of the project of
Reim m, that the convequence of it would be to pre-
clude all profligate and wanton expenditure of the
public money, and to prevent all unjust and unne-
cessary wars. Such opinions 'Might be theoreti-
cally correct, but he was perfectly convinced that -
in no country could it be carried ir to effectpracti-
cally. He would appeal to the recollections of many
Gentlemen who heard him, whether for the last fitly
years the people of this country had not been greater
advocates for war than the Government. It had
been the public feeling during the administration of
Sir Robert Walpole; and although it was soon as-
certained that• that distinguished Statesman wished
to preserve peace, yet the public voice was so strong
for war, that he was obliged to comply with their
-wishes, and the consequence was, that ihe very peo-
ple who had desired compliance with their wishes,
turned the tables, and the current of public opinion
was hostile to that Statesman. Even supposing that
Reform was desirable, it would be too much to ap-
pettl to the People; for allowing their objects to be
law and honourable, they must, in
,some degree
or other always be guided by party prejudices, as
well as the Members of the House of COMmons..
He did not mean so insist that the people would'
not be of,the same opinion as their Representatives, ,
but he thought the House ought not too implicitly to •
obey their hasty dictates, as from the constitution 'of
human nature all Were liable to err, especially
when Reform was, as he had already observed, -the
wishes of a -small portion only of the_people. If
the people 'were displeased with the conduct of their
representatives, they had the power of not elect-
ing them again, and it was well known that on ,
Many occasions when the people had so aded, they •
had exercised that right which the Constitution of
the country vested in them, and had 'eleded whom
they pleased. In the reign of King William the
Parliament might -be called a Landed Parliament.
The increase of commerce bad induced many com-
mercial gentlemen to obtaio• seats in Parliament,
and guarded the rights and interests of those
whose pursuits Were similar to their own,—they
contributed their share to the public busiiess;
and gave additional vigour acrd energy so the court; ry,
and of course were entitled to hat-e a share in the
legislative functions. The Constitution proved no
barrier between the different classes of the commu-
nity ; all, according to- their merit and property,
partook of honour and advancement in the State.
With. the experience before them of the fate of
Other nations under Reform, he hopyd and trusted,
the House would be cautious how they saw:lion
ed any plan Which might in effect be dangerous:
This House ought not to establish itself higher
than the Croon, or the inevitable cohseque:iee