The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-17 00:00:00

had of knowing was by looking to the returns of the
ships, acd, as far as he could judge from those, the
ships he had named were classed the same.
Sir G. COCKBURN—The 104-gun ships are not.
Captain BERKELEY con t inued—W hy then was there
no difference between the 90 guns and the 92-gun ship 3?
It was as great a fault to over man as to under-man a
ship, for in all cases the crews should be proportioned to
the number of guns. But above all things, it was unwise
to send the experimental squadron to sea under-manned.
—(Hear, hear.) Certainly a better man could not have
been chosen than the Gallant Admiral who was to take
that squadron to sea. But he feared that the result would
be disappointment in consequence of the want of a suffi-
cient complement of able seamen. The consequence
would be that the officers and the captains would become
discontented with each other, and the Admiral would
" blow up" them all. The Hon. and Gallant Officer then
read a letter of considerable length from Sir Hyde
Parker, but from the low and rapid manner
in which he read it, we could only gather
that the Gallant Ocffier disapproved of the mode
in which the experimental squadron was to be manned.
Now he would go back to 1836. He was going to show
that this was not the only board that meted in this way,
but that other boards acted in a similar way. In 1836
he was appointed to a ship. There were seven ships of
the line building at that time. He found at that time
that there was the greatest difficulty in getting men, and
other captains were in the same predicament. They
were obliged to have recourse to the coact-guard service.
It was stated that they had no reason to complain, for
the same class of ships as that which he commanded bore
the same number of men now. It was well known that
captains were anxious to get able-bodied seamen, and
men came to him and said that they would enter for his
ship, provided he would enter them as able bodied
men, but he told them he did r.ot consider them as such.
He feared he was wearying the House with these de-
tails, but this was a subj, ct of the greatest importance
to the House and to the public; and whether they were
landsmen or seamen they should all consider that this
was a question en which the safety of the navy depended.
The lion. Member then described the duties of a sailor,
and said that in former days no man was deemed an
efficient seaman until he was thoroughly conversant
with those duties; but now-a•days sailors were very dif-
ferent indeed, and so they would continue to be until
hie plan should be adopted. When he was out upon a
voyage recently he found that out of twelve of his crew
there were only seven who knew how to go into the

chains and use the lead. When on that station, he re-
ceived an order from, the then Board of Admiralty,
stating that the men in his ship should be allowd to
volunteer into any other ship. On receiving this order, l.e
took it on himself to do that which he conceived
was required by the peculiar circumstances of the case.
But he was well aware that if he threw difficulties in

the way of the Board of Admiralty—if he endeavoured
to shirk the order which they bad Riven him—he should
not be doing his duty. He therefore addressed a letter
to Sir William Gage, and he told him that if any man
from his ship were allowed to volunteer into any other,
he should not be able to bring her home—he would not
undertake to bring her home. Sir William Gage, who
commanded on the station, came on beard his ship ; he
examined the company, he went through the whole of
them, and then he said that he should not take one man
from him, nor allow them to volunteer into any other ship.
Be recollected, in 1836, that there was one man who
was asked at the rendezvous how long he was at sea, and
on informing them that he was twenty-two years at sea,
he was put down as an able-bodied seaman. But the
fact turned out to he that he was a discharged marine.—

(Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Member then read
an extract from a letter which he had received, in 1839,
from Portsmouth, which stated that the Powerful an-
chored after dark, and the mcn were in such a state that
they took more than half an hour furling the sells, and
the maintop they could not furl. In 1840 he (Captain
Berkeley) was appointed to her Majesty's ship the
Thunderer, and it appeared that the few good men whom
he had in the Hercules were paid off and came to the
Thunderer. He sent an officer to Plymmth, and Sir
David Dunn sent one to Portsmouth. Sir David
Dunn told him there was no use in having a rendezvous
in Plymouth while the Thunderer was in Portsmouth.
Sir David Dunn told him (Captain Berkeley) that when
he asked able seamen in the streets to join his ship, they
said " No, we will go to the Thunderer, for the officers
there make the work light, and wish to see their ship
gully and properly manned." He asked the Gallant
Officer opposite was not that accounting for the under-
, manned state of the navy. The Hon. and Gallant Ad-
miral had, some nights ago, hinted that the blame of de-
ficiency was not owing to him, but to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, who would not supply the funds. If he
(Captain Berkeley) were in the Hon. Gentleman's place,
if they did not give him men enough, he would make
his bow and withdraw from office.—(llear, hear.) He
would now pass on to show why men could not be ob-
tained. The first great reason was the general use of
steam-boats substituting machinery for hand labour. Let
them look to Liverpool and the other great ports, and they
would find that passage-boats had been entirely laid
aside. At Plymouth and Portsmouth a great number of
wherries were formerly in use, and a great number of
persons were thus trained to the sea ; but this description
of vessel was now but little used. He would now
again turn for a moment to the case of the
Thunderer, from which he had been diverted by an
interruption from the Honourable Gentleman opposite.
The course they were pursuing would not do. They
ought to have a system fur manning ships, and they
ought not to break faith with the seamen. They ought
not to do with the men what they had done with them
in China. It was true they had
_given batta to them,
but the fact was, they had not given them prize money
for what they had done in China. What hsd been
done ? Why, Government had taken everything,
and given their seamen nothing. And now, let him ask,
why was it that he had taken the trouble to make these
statements? In former times the merchant service was
a sort of nursery for the men-of-war ; but now the
ships were rigged in dock by old Greenwich pensioners,
and, in fact, it was the men-of-war who fur-
nished the merchant service with men. He
did not expect that the Board of Admiralty
would be induced to remedy those defects of
which he complained, merely because he made those
representations ; but those discussions would have a
very useful effect out of doors ; and it often happened
that they tended to carry a point; for upon a former occa-
sion he was defeated in that House by a large majority
upon a motion that he had brought forward ; but it was
looked upon as so important by the public, that the
Whig First Lord of the Admiralty, who then came into
office, expressed his approval of the project, because
public opinion and the press were in favour of it.—
(Hear, hear.) He meant the affsir of the ten-gun brigs.
—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with
any further observations.
Sir G. COCKBURN said he should answer the state-
ments of the Gallant Officer, first, by saying that he was
very much surprised to hear the Gallant Officer begin
his speech by charging him (Sir G. Cockburn) with
having stated that he conceived there was no difficulty
whatever in manning the fleet. Now he (Sir George
Cockburn) had stated exactly the reverse of that, for he
said it had been found impossible to get efficient men
when they were wanted ; and that when men were dis-
charged from a man-of-war they either went into fore'gn
service or the merchant service, or got some sort of em-
ployment, for they required bread. as well as other men;
and then, in three or four years time, if they should
happen to be wanted, they were not to be had. But at
"present the state of the navy was not so bad as the Gal-
lant Officer supposed; for all the vessels were well manned,
except, ho believed, the Queen, the Hibernia, and the
Canopus. As to what the Gallant Officer had stated
about men unfit to use the lead in the chains, he (Sir
G. Cockburn) begged to say that when he was in com-
mand of a ship he always tried his men before he
rated them.

Captain BERKELEY said that the men he had men-
Coned had been sent to him rated.

suffering a full-manned vessel never to leave her moor-
ings was the greatest. These . vessels were supplied
with some thirty or forty-five wave young fellows,
who were anxiously expecting that they would one day
become officers, but whose inexperience did more injury
to the service than anything else. He recolleeted an
instance of a line-of-battle ship having been kept at
her moorings for three years and three months, and
then sent to sea. Now, what was the result ? Why,
halt—the seamen were sea- sick, and the vessel itself %as
found unseaworthy. If they wanted to have an efficient
service, they must place active and experienced officers
over the men, and not put persons in command who had
never seen a storm or a squall. He would break up
the fifteen line-of-ba•.tle ships, and distribute the men
and officers amongst small brigs. If Government would
adopt this plan, the service would be restored to its•
former state, for thus the men and the officers would
have an opportunity of being constantly at sea and in
squalls.
Captain PECHELL concurred with the Hon. and
Gallant Member who had just sat down, and thought it
was sufficiently clear that the Hon. and Gallant Member
admitted the existence of the want of men in the navy.
Now he should be glad if the Hon and Gallant Member
would explain how it happened that when he was in com-
mand of the Pique, and was required of his superior
officer to furl a sail, or to perform some other manoeuvre
whilst in the Bay of Cadiz, he stated that he was unable
to do so because some of his men were absent in a boat.
Why did not the Hun. and Gallant Member state the
real cause of his being unable to perform it, namely, that
his ship was not sufficiently manned.
Captain ROUS—It is the first time I ever heard
of it.

Melville said, some years ago, that we could
no longer depend on the merchant service, but must
look to ourselves, and keep up a larger proportion of
men in training. The -same observation now forcibly
applied, and he calls d upon the First Lord of the Trea-
sury and the Government to come forward in a liberal
spit it and supply the deficiency of the navy. Though
the cloud to which the Right flon. Baronet a few even-
ings ago adverted was likely to pass away, they should
not forget that last year they were on the very verge of
a rupture with France. There were two other evils to
which he wished to call the attention of the House. The
first was to the men's clothing, and the second their
pay.. Men should be paid by twelve months in the yen-,
and not by thirteen, as was the present way—an absurd
practice, which had nothing but antiquity to recommend
it. Again,
tl:e pay of the petty officer should be varied,
so as to give him confidence in his position, and make a
substantial distinction between his position and that of
the common seaman. The first class petty officer ought
to receive -IL a month, and the second 31. As regarded
the present systeth of Clothing, the
.sooner it was aban-
doned the better. Nobody was benefited by it but the
contractor. The men euilit to be clothed at the ports
at which they touched. They ought to be measured
and fitted out in a proper manner, and not on that poor
slop-shop system,which was a disgrace to theßritish navy.
The institution to which he had referred was the Sea-
man's Home in London. That institution had been
founded by Captain Elliott, a commander in the navy, at
his own especial risk, nay, indeed, he had risked his
a hole fortune in establishing the- institution. It was an
institution of a highly important and valuable character.
Most men would have thought that some mark of dis-
tinction would have -been conferred on an officer for
such a sacrifice as this. But no such mark had been con-
ferred.. Yet this institution took men out of the hands
of the crimps, provided them a comfortable and re-
spectable home, where they could obtain everything on
moderate terms. He thought some means might have been
adopted by the Board of Admiralty to avoid the ex-
cessive charges to which seamen were subject, for
the system of crimps had become a regular traffic. The
men were laid hold of--they were taken on board ship,
and charged a high price for everything they required.
Their clothing was of the worst description, and all the
articles they obtained were hardly worth one-half of the
money which they gave for them.—(" Hear, hear," from
the Ministerial benches.) Hon. Gentlemen might say
" Hear, hear," but he had been obliged to employ
crimps himself.—(flear.) The men were laid hold of—
they were .made half drunk a few shillings
wrapped up in a pound-note- %%ere shoved into their
hands, and they were told that they had been paid two
months' wage's in advilice. He had seen this practised
on three or four hundred men at a time. He stated these
circumstances because he wished to obtain efficient sea-
men for the service. This had occurred not in the time
of the present Government.—(Hear.) He did not care
a farthing about parties when speaking of the navy. He
had urged upon the preceding Government, though he
was not, at that time a Member of the House, the pro-
priety of making some small grant to the Sailors' Home—
something that would enable it to lift its head above
water when it was in great difficulty. And now he
would urge upon the present Government the same
thing. If. they would make only a small bounty, it
would enable the institution to reduce the charge of
board to the men from 12s. to Bs. per week. He would
do more than this, for he would venture to press upon
the Government the necessity of establishing Sailors'
Homes at Portsmouth, Plymouth. and all the other
places where ships were paid off. If they did this, the
seamen, instead of falling into the hands of the sharks
when they returned from a voyage, would be able to go
to a place where they would obtain every accommoda-
tion at a reasonable rate, vliere they could leave their
things, and when they went on a cruise, .as they were
sure to do, they could put ss. or 10s. into their pockets,
and the reet would be taken care of, instead of as now
spending the earnings of years in the extravagance of
a week.—(Hear.) There was but another subject to
which he would allude—the prize-money in China. The
ships taken in that country, of which there had been a
great number, instead of being regularly condemned,
had been sent into different ports and afterwards re-
turned into the Chinese at a,
.very reduced rating. The
seamen had been sent to Caine, an unhealthy country.
They had honestly earned their prize-money and they
had been always accustomed to receive it ; and yet he
ch
believed that the Eastlna Company at this time was in.
pesseesion of 150,0001. from the sale Of guns and other
stores, and that more than 80,000/ of Batta money had
never been paid which was due forthe Canton campaign.
He did not think it • was fair that the seamen
should be deprived of their prize-money, in order that
the Government might obtain a sum from the Chinese
towards defraying the expenses of the war. This, he
thought, was a penny-wise and a pound-foolish system.
He would not trouble the House with any further ob-
servations, but he had been anxious to bring the subject
of the navy strongly under the notice of Government.
Mr. WILLIAMS had a very high respect for the
of the 1101149, but he had a very great objection to opinions of the two Gentlemen who had spoken on his side
in-
creasing the navy estimates, and he thought the matter
had better be left in the hands of the Government.

Sir G. COCKBURN then continued, by saying the.
very few vessels of war had now more than six or eight
landsmen each in them. He concurred in the observa-
tions of the Gallant Officer, that men-of-war sent
abroad should be manned by efficient seamen. When he
(Sir G. Cockburn) was in command of a ship, the navy
e as la a most efficient state, because it was necessary
the.i ; and he remembered, upon one occasion, that
several men-of-war were ready at forty-eight hours'
notice to sail for Lisbon. He could assure the Gallant
Officer that means had lately been adopted to procure
efficient men ; and when the vessels now in preparation
were ready, they would be taken to the mouth of the
Channel, and the qualifications of the sailors and
marines then tried. As to what had been said about
not having ten sail of the line always in commission and
ready for sea at a short notice, that was matter for the
consideration of Government, and they would have
them ready if they should deem it necessary, but the
question was, was it necessary to put the country to such_
an expense at such a period.—(Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to men entering the merchant service in preference
to the navy, he conceived that the contrary was the fact,
for when men entered the merchant service they were so
badly treated, and had so many deductions made from
them, that they entered the navy when they could.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not know that he had left any
other point of the Gallant Officer's speech unnoticed.
Mr. SOMES remarked that a good deal had been said
of the paucity of men at present in the navy, and fur his
part he could not understand how Hon. Members could
indulge in assertions of this nature. In 1814 the num-
ber of seamen in the service was 170,876, and at the
present time the number was 216,350, making an increase
of 42,000. He however admitted that the number of men
who were active and able had nut increased in propor
tion to the quality that were in the service in 1814.
Mr. H. LAMBTON complained that the crimping
system was the cause of the existence of great evils
amongst seamen. Numbers of poor sailors who
entered the port of London were daily being plundered
by these crimps, and he thought Government ought to
take some steps to put an end to the system. There
was another abuse which ought to be put down. When
sailors came into the port of London they were seized
upon by low boarding-house keepers, who plunged them
into every sort of vice,
_ and when they had got all their
money out of them they turned them into the streets to
starve. He hoped Government would take these matters
into their serious consideration, and see if some means
could not be devised to put an end to these abases.
Captain ROUS said there was as great a
scarcity of men in the service in 1824 as there was
at the present time, but he did not attribute the evils
which existed in the navy to this cause, but rather to
the want of experienced and efficient officers. It was
well known that when they arrived at a certain time of
life they began to think women were not so handsome
as they had before imagined them ; and, in his opinion,
some Hon. Members had arrived at that time of life
when they began to think seamen were not so able and
active as they were formerly.—(Laughter.) But if they
wished to have good seamen in the service, they must
take care te have active and experienced officers over them.
At present ships were allowed to remain at home, and
he thought, of all the absurdities in the world, that of

Captain PECHELL said he had been informed of the
circumstance by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Gloucester, who at the time it occurred was in command
in the bay of Cadiz. lie believed they had the will to
man their ships properly, but they would not effect that
object in the way they were proceeding. He complained
of the way that men were transferred from one ship to
another. The moment a ship was paid off, the seaman
whether belongig to the navy or merchant service was
considered a mark to be plundered by every person who
was so inclined—that was a system which ought to be
repro%ated. Another thing which seamen had to com-
plain of was their being placed in the ten-gun brigs. It
was well known that they were unsafe, and not fit to be
used as the means of conveyance between this country.
What was the opinion of the country with respect to
them? Why, several of those vessels were offered for
sale at Somerset House by Mr. Corry and Sir William
Symonds. They asked 1,0001. for each of them, but
they would not fetch even 5001. Then, again,
they had good reason to complain as to the payment
of their wages. They felt that they were not paid well
enough, and he told them it would be well to raise the
wages of seamen now, when it was probable that they
would be obliged to raise them in a short time. His
Hon. Friend alluded to the want of able-bodied men.
That was a matter which the country had a deep interest
in. How could it be expected that those able-bodied
men would come to them, when their wages were so
small ? They would not come back till a more liberal
system was adopted towards them. They were gone, he
was afraid, to America and elsewhere, where they were
better paid. The Gallant Officer stated that it was the
intention of the Government to man the experimetrusl
squadron, and to give the ships the proper complements.
That was very good, but what he (Captain Pechell)
wanted was, that the same system should be carried out
generally with regard to the navy. Those ships may
not be wanted alone at the chops of the Channel. They
might) be malted again at Tangiers, to look after the
Prince de Joinville and the Belle Poule. They were
told they ought not to speak of that Prince; but if their
presence were wanted in any part of the world, they
ought to be in a position to enable them to be there with
effect. He knew that the Admiralty were not the
great obstacle to what he required. He knew the great
obstacle was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was
a millstone around the necks of the Board. But there
were the Hon. Member for Montrose and the Hon.
Member for Coventry, who looked so well after the pub-
lic and they had no abjection to see the navy of
the country put into a proper and efficient condition.
Mr. SOMES explained.

Lord INGESTRI rose for the purpose of expressing
his assent to what had fallen from 'his Hon. and Gallant
Friend the Member for Westminster. He thought that
no more important question could come before the
House than the way in which their ships were manned.
The Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton had spoken
of the way in which the seamen belonging to the navy
were treated • but he believed that they had more com-
forts in the British navy than in any service in the world.
He gave the present Government credit for wishing to
see the navy properly manned.
Sir C. NAPIER said that the Right Hon. and Gallant
Officer had frequently complained that the lion.
Members on his (Sir C. Napier's) side of the House
were constantly finding fault. The same assertion had
been repeated on that night. He declared now, as he
had done on former occasions, that he had no wish
whatever to find fault with any B nird of Admiralty—
the present or any other—however constituted. He felt
satisfied that his Hon. Friend the Member for Glou-
cester did not get up for the purpose of finding fault. It
was not their interest to find fault. Had he (Sir C.
Napier) remained silent— had he behaved himself in a
proper manner—(Laughter)—he would be now in a
better position. The Hoc. and Gallant Officer smiled
at this, but it was not the less likely that bad he been
more quiet, and less given to the fair and open ex-
pression of his opinion on naval matters, he would noiv
have been in command of the experimental squadron, or
at least of one of the ships belonging to it. A Lord of
the Admiralty bad assured him that he would have
been very happy to see him in command, and had
asked him what ship he liked ; but when he
subsequently expressed surprise at having been
passed over, he was told that be was too
violent and too much of a party man. Ile disclaimed
being a party man, or a violent man, upon any question
in which the naval service of this country was concerned,
and he defied any one to show it. He had long sought,
by private representations to the Admiralty, to reform
abuses, and render the service more effective, but found
such representations utterly useless. Nothing could be
done for the navy in that House, except by agitation.—
(Hear.) It was the only way to get ships properly manned
and fitted out. Unless when driven by public opinion,
the Govertliment never would abandon their old course.
The Gallant Officer seemed offended that his Hon. and
Gallant Friend should have said, on a former occasion,
that the navy was not sufficiently manned ; and the
Gallant Officer then said, or at least was reported to have
said, that the ships were as well manned as in wartime.
The next morning, when he (Sir Charles Napier) went to
the United Service Club, he was at once surrounded
by about twenty officers who asked him if it were possible
that Sir George Cockburn had said, that ships were as
well manned as they used to be. He answered that
he believed it was, and they expressed their surprise at
such a statement. The Gallant Officer further stated
that be had mustered the ships and found them well
manned. His (Sir 9. Napier's) opinion was, that the
eight sail of the line now in commission were very
badly manned. He was in Portsmouth a few days ago,
and asked many inferior officers there (whose names he
would not mention, because it would probably be inju-
rious to them) what there opinions were as to the state
of the navy, and the general opinion was, that the ships
were extremely ill-manned. He could not conceive why
these men would say so, if it were not the case, and it also
seemed strange that the Gallant Officer opposite should
express himself with confidence in a directly opposite
manner. This would be very puzzling, was it not very
well known, that the Admiralty was not
the place which truth could reach. Officers
looking out for employment were always ready
to put that construction upon the state of the
navy which they thought would please the Board. He
did net blame the Admiralty for not manning the ships.
It was not their fault—they were placed there to do the
best they could—the fault lay with the Government.
When the present Government came into power, they
found 26 sail of the line in commission, most qiwhich
had been at sea for a considerable time, and their crews
in a good state of discipline ; but the Government re-
duced that number to five or six. The first year they
reduced the fleet in the Mediterranean to twelve ; the
next to eight ; and the third to one. When they were
in difficulties, all they could produce was three sail of
the line, and one of theSe had to go to South America.
They had now a fleet of ten sail of the line, and he hoped
they at least would be well manned and efficiently fitted
out.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer expressed his
surprise that they should get the men so quick.
Why, what did he gall quick ? In January or
December last the first ship was commissioned,
and they were then in the middle of May, and eight sail
of the line were not ready. Surely there must be some
bungling here, wherever or however that bungling took
place. Ships which had left Plymouth commissioned,
were brought into Portsmouth, and taken into dock for
examination, to have an inspection of their bottoms,
at a cost of 500/. or •6001. to the country, and after
being commissioned, they, were taken into dock again !
Why could not this inspection have taken place before
they were commissioned ? He thought the Government
were wrong in pursuing this economical course. If they
wished to have a proper squadron they must not send
the ships to sea with inferior crews. When such was
the case officers became slovenly, and the men dissatis-
fied. Things could not be done with that instantaneous
precision and dispatch so necessary on board a ship, nor,
indeed, in a manner befitting the dignity of a British
man-of-war. The men were incensed and disgusted with
eternal work, and were much in the same condition as
Sir Pulteney Malcolm spoke of, when he said,
they were " all hands all day, and every
body at nig'it."—(Hear, hear.) If they wished to
make the naval service popular, they must give up all
notions of this miserable economy. It was better to
send but few skips to sea, but send those few properly
manned. It was not the number of men which was so
expensive, but the wear and tear of the ships. If the
ships were fitted out on a more liberal scale, men would
be obtained with more ease, and sailers would discharge
their duty when they had but their own proper duty to
perform, with a more hearty goodwill. The Hon. and
Gallant Commodore then mentioned the defective man-
ning of the Albion, which, though a very large 9 )-gun
ship, had only the same number of men as the Thua-
derer, of less capacity. He felt surprised that the Hon.
and Gallant Baronet should tell his Hon. and Gallant
Friend that seamen were as good as ever. It was im-
possible that such should be the case. Their seamen
had be-n destroyed by the steam-vessels. They might
have very good stokers, engineers, and cottlheavers now,
but not sailors.—(Hear, hear.) They might find such
men able to haul a mainsail, but were they the sort of
men that would run up the top of the yards on a cold
and stormy night ?—were they the sort of men to get
ships out of a difficulty?—(Hear, hear.) Even the
steam navy would be, in a short time, in a great mea-
sure superseded by railroads, by which would be per-
formed what was now done in the coasting trade. The
Hon. Gentlemen opposite might laugh, but steam had
been a great blow to the training of seamen. Lord

Lord PALMERSTON begged the_ attention of the
House to a few observations on the slave trade. The
other night he felt it his duty to put a few ques-
tions to the Right Hon Baronet, and he was sorry ti say
that his replies were anything but satisfactory. He him
self had reason to be dissatisfied with the annual returns
not having been given in the present year at so early a
period as they had been for some years past, and he must
also say, that they were not of the same -useful and ex-
plicit character as formerly. The observations _of the
Right Hon. Baronet only went to convey an opinion on
the experience of the last three years, but from the re-
port on the slave trade it appeared the Government had
been not only undoing all that had been accomplishes!
by those who went before them, but had also, in some in-
stances, absolutely frustrated what they themselves had
done. He stated this because it had reference to the rea-
sons which had induced the country to wish to see the
slave-trade suppressed. The treaties with the several
Powers had provided that they should prohibit
themselves not only from - engaging in the
slave-trade themselves, but that they should also
submit to a mutual right of search. Their object
was not only to prevent the slave-trade from being car-
ried on with those countries into which slaves were im-
ported, but also to hinder their transmission from the
places whence they came. It was not to be expected
that the countries which had carried on this trade could
change their habits all at once. They could not expect
that Spain, Portugal, and Brazil could all at once ac-
cede to the wishes of the other powers, however mach
they might desire to do so. What was the state of
things when the last Government came into power
in 1835 ? These were the declarations of the
several Congresses, from 1815 to 1822, of the wish to
abolish this nefarious traffic, but these remained as de-
clarations only. No stipulations had been entered into
to give power to the British cruisers to carry their com-
missions into effect.. The late Government bad entered,
into treaties with no less than twelve Powers for the
suppression of the slave-trade. The United States had
entered into two general treaties, by which they bound
themselves not to engage in the slave-trade, and under
which they gave power to the vessels of other nations to
suppress it in American bottoms.
A treaty had been
entered into with Spain, which gave power to all vessels
south of the equator. A similar treaty had also been
entered into with Sweden. W.tb Algiers, Tripal;, Tunis,
and also Madagascar, treaties hal been entered
into for the release of all white Christian
slaves. This was the ease when the present Govern-
ment had entered office. What further did the last
Government do ? They contracted no less than eighteen
treaties with different countries. With France they had
formed peculiar engagements. They had entered into
a special contract with Denmark. They had obtained
an additional clause from Sardinia—from Spain—
from Sweden—from the Netherlands—from Hanover—
from Chili—from Venezuela—Buenos Ayres—Ureguay
—Hayti—and also from Muskat. They were also mak-
ing arrangements with Bolivia, Texas, and Mexico ;
but there was no power in these treaties to enforce their
execution. A stipulation was necessary for that effect.
But this was not the whole of their attention to this
subject. They had entered into arrangements with the
chiefs on the western coast of Africa, to prevent the de-
portation of slaves; and there were six treaties completed
when the present Governinent came into power in 1841.
They had also entered into arrangements with Cuba to
obtain the release of British subjects who had been
either kidnapped from Sierra Leone or legally sold in
the market of that island. They had obtained engage-
ments from Spain and Brazil to give liberty to the
slaves called Emancipados, wile, although they were
said to be set at liberty by the laws, were still retained
in actual slavery. This is what the last Government
had actually effected. They had accomplished the
league with the five great Power§ of Europe to sup 7
press the slave trade, and had they remained in
office they would also have obtained the ratification
of France. If thb present Government had only used
common diligence on their accesion to office, there
would have been no time for those intrigues in the
French Chambers which had occasioned the non-
ratification of that treaty. Ile had asked the Right
Hon. Baronet, the other night, why he had not obtained
the accession of Hanover, Belgium, and Greece, to that
treaty ; and he would now ask him what reason could
thatad the
Hanover—which influence
be given why those powers had not given in
their adherence to the principle after the treaty
had been signed by Austria, Prussia, end the
was paramount to that of Austria,
other Powers who had become parties to it ?—(Hear.)
the
England ? Ile (Lord Palmerston)
He did not see the conclusiveness of the argument. Did
igp,fl): Her osii.BGai
FR rues ns
pi nr u Es
sui
ar paen, d
thought that such an admission was no compliment to the
egliltmlle:ganreescaye,
three
had not been addressed, in consequence of that deference
to French influence. lie thought it was the duty of her
Majesty's Government to have addressed themselves to
every Power, whose assistance they could expect to
obtain. He thought they ought to have made the invi-
tations, and left it to the three Powers to state their.
reasons for declining thern--(Hear, hear.) The silent
acquiescence of her Majesty's Government in the re-
fusal -of the French Minister to ratify the treaty
which he himseK as Ambassador, had nego-
tiated, was no encouragement to other Powers to Live
us their co-operation. The French Minister stated
in the Chambers that his refusal had met with no re-
monstrance from her Majesty's Government.—(lloo.)
He would now come to the Ashburton treaty, which set
aside the former treaty of Washington, whereby the
American Government was bound to use the best en-
deavours to suppress the slave trade. Now he would ask,
was it enough to send five ships to watch the whole line
of the vast coast of Africa to prevent the prosecution of
the slave trade under the American flag?—(gear, hear ).
There was another stipulation in the treaty by which
the two parties bound themselves to unite in remon-
strances with countries which allowed the slave-trade to
-be carried on. But what had they done?—si hat did the
Right Holiourable Baronet state to him (Lord Pal-
merston) the other night ? Why, that it had been de-

TUE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MAI 17 1845.

Mr. BANES objected to the vote. He had the au-
thority of Colonel Maberly in stating that not Ling could
be more incorrect than the Post-office return which was
laid on the table of the House. The return was as yet
unexplained by the Government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Honourable Gentleman called for an explana-
tion of the account with respect to the Post-office revenue.
He could, however, satisfy the House that the return
was not open to the objections of the Hon. Gentleman.
When it was first presented to Parliament, and when he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) sat on the ether side
of the House, he stated that the real revenue was very
small, if they deducted the whole expense of collecting
that revenue. After making that statement, he moved
for a return not merely of what the Post-office produced,
but also what were the charges necessarily incurred,
in producing the revenue, which included the expense
of the packages and the delivery. The greater part of
the Post-office revenues was borne in the naval account.
It was thought better after that to conduct the packages
in the King's ships, and consequently the charge which
had been made against the revenues of the Post-office,
became charged in the naval estimates, while the receipts
remained in the Post-office. It was necessary to put
en one side all that was paid for the conveyance, and on
the other all that had been received by the Post-office.
Mr. HAWES said a few words in explanation, and
alluded to a deputation, which was received by Sir R.
Peel, two years ago, when the Right Hon. Gentleman
stated that the Post-office revenue did not amount to
500,000/ or 600,000/., but only to 110,0001, for the
purpose of creating an unfavourable impression of the
penny postage.
Sir R. PEEL said that he was entirely misunder-

stood, and that nothing was further from his mind than
to show that the arrangement was a bad one, for he
wished most cordially for its success. In answer to the
deputation, he said that the net produce of the Post-
office did not amount to five or s►x hundred thousand

pounds, for the purpose of removing an erroneous im-
pression which they laboured under, not ibr the purpose
of making unfavourable contrasts.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the net amount, up to the
sth of April, was 09,0001, and the charges for packets
amounted to 544,0001., leaving a net revenue of
155,0001
Mr. WARBURTON did not think that the Post office
should be charged with the whole of the cost of con-
structing the packets, seeing that they had been built in
a very expensive manner, in order that, upon an emer-
gency, they might be turned into war steamers.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXOREQuER said
that
othe return which he had made was not a-c.‘,mpara,-
tivne.'
Sir C. NAPIER, believed that so long as the Board of
Admiralty was constituted as it now was, a great deal
of money would be uselessly expended. He bad 1 a ways

tided that a joint representation to the two Powers by
Great Britain would look like dictation—(Hear, hear)—
and theta had been thought better that the representa-
tion should be made separately lest the f. elings of the
Brazilian and Spanish people should be hurt by the ap-
pearance of dictation. But it was not delicacy to Brazil or
Spain that caused the deviation. The feelings of Narvaez
might be hurt. The feelings of General Valdez might
be hurt. But the value of the representation. would
have depended upon what the Right Hon. Baronet
called wounded feelings.—(Cheers.) Everybody who
knew anything of diplomacy must know that representa-
tions made by two nations were of far greater force than
separate representations.-,—(Hear, hear.) The joint re-
presentations would have been disagreeable to those
Spaniards and Brazilians who were interested in carrying
on a felonious trade in defiance of the laws of their
own rations.—(Hear, hear.) Again, what had the Go-
vernment done with respect to the slavery of
British subjects in Cuba and Surinam? The Right Hon.
Gentleman had said that they could not in justice do
any thing for the liberation of those persons, unless it
were shown that they were British subjects born free.
Happily, the actions of the Government had been better
than their theory. In the very papers in which that
slavish doctrine was expressed, he found that the libera-
tion of British subjects had been demanded and oh-
tained.—(Cheers.) (The Noble Lord then read an ex-
tract from the papers referred to, demanding the libera-
tion of British subjects detained in slavery at Cuba.)
That document expressed the opinion which be had al-
ways maintained when in office. Now, with respectto the
Cemmission which was to have been appointed—
as to the importation of slaves into Cuba and Brazil

contrary to the laws of those countrier-li7thougKi
that, if there was any apprehension that retrospective
law would have created confurion, the law might be
made prospective. As to what was going on in the
negotiation between the Commissioners appointed by
France and this country, the general impression in the
public mind was that it was intended to return to some
of the measures proposed by the late Government, such
as the destruction of the barracoons and the blockade of
the coast. To both these measures the present Govern-
ment had expressed themselves hostile when out of office.
He was pleased to hope that they had changed their
views, for he believed that if these measures were
adopted they would produce great and important results.
He had heard also that the treaty of 1826, relating to
mixed Commissions and the right of search, were at an
end. He should be glad to hear from the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite, that that was not the case. By that
treaty Brazil had bound itself to allow its own subjects
engaged in this traffic to be dealt with as pirates. fie
held that by that treaty we had a right to exact from
Brazil the suppression of the trade. The Government
had proposed to send out to Rio Janeiro, for the pur-
pose of procuring a renewal of the commercial treaty,
and if the object had been to prevent Brazil from
Co operating with us for the suppression of the slave-
trade, a more ingenious course could not be taken. It
was not required as a condition of the treaty that Brazil
should fulfil her engagements for the suppression of the
slave trade, but that slavery in Brazil should be modi-
fied—a demand as hopeless and inadmissible as to re-
quire the lauded gei.try of this country to come
tbrwa, d of their free-will 'and abolish the
corn-laws.—(Hear.) Here then we were supporting
a great domestic monopoly, under the pretence that we
could not admit Brazilian sugar unless slavery was modi-
fied in that territory ; and we abstained from a united
remonstrance against the violation of solemn engage-
ments, when we did not hesitate to offend the most
deeply rooted prejudices of the nation. He believed that
attention to other matters had prevented her Majrsty's
Government from giving a due attention to this subject.
But he hoped they would give it greater attention, and
that they .would show to other Governments a determi-

nation to use all the means of political influenceand of
physical coercion which Great Britain possessed, to put
down the slave trade. He trusted that the papers
would be laid upon the table of the House within a
tsin period.

Sir R. PEEL said, that with respect to the period at
which the papers required by the Noble Lord would be
laid on the table, he (Sir R. Peel) had a confident hope
the Noble Lord would have an opportunity of referring
to them. The Noble Lord had stated that the present
Government were so much occupied with other business,
that they could not give that degree of attention to the
present subject which its importance deserved. He could
assure the Noble Lord that the business of the Foreign-
office had not been in the slightest degree diminished,
but he yet did hope that the slave trade papers
would be presented in such a period as would
meet with the approbation of the Noble Lord.
The Government had been taxed with indifference on
such an important question as this, but the Noble Lord
would have an opportunity of looking over them, and
in the event of his disapprobation, of bringing for-
ward a motion for the purpose of testing the opinion- of
the House, as it respected the Government. The Noble
Lord on this occasion, as on others, took the chance of
passing a merited eulogium on himself. The Noble
Lord had entered on a subject which he (Sir R. Peel)
• felt considerable difficulty in referring to, He meant the
question with respect to the treaty with France. The Go-
vernment, it was well known, had entered into a tr, at.y
with Brazil, by which that Government was bound for
fifteen years to contribute to the suppression of the slave-
trade. The Noble Lord had been rightly informed,
that the Brazilian Government had dec'ared that con-
vention ended. But whether that convention Here
ended or not, they were bound by another engagement
to this country, which provided that no Brazilian
should carry on the slave-trade in any manner e ha.ever.
and made it capital for any native of the Brazils to carry
on the slave-trade, holding that to be an act of piracy.
The Noble Lord had said that the present Government
were to be blamed for not having had the signature of
France attached to theireaty of 1841. But the Noble
Lord well knew that the three flags of Europe which
had been made use of in carrying on the slave-trade
were those of Belgium, llanover, and Greece, although
no warrants had been granted by the respective Powers
for using those flags in carrying on the slave-trade.
The Noble Lord, in his reference to France. had said
that the refusal of that country to ratify the treaty
extended much beyond France. Again, with reference to
what the Noble Lord called the capitulation of Wash-
ington, he (Sir R. Peel) would say that the people of
the United States were of opinion that their country
had granted a very great concession to the Government
of. this country. He (Sir R. Peel) hoped, therefore,
that this country would not take the character of that
treaty solely from the representations of the Noble
Lord. The treaty of Washington had provided that a
joint representation should be made to other parties, and
a conference had, in consequence, been entered into be-
tween Lord Aberdeen and Mr. Webster.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought if the Noble Lord looked to the language
the Government had used with respect to Brazil, he
would at once admit that they had shown no desire to
snare their feelings on the subject. There had been no
disposition on the part of the Government or any of their
acts to support the slave-trade, either in Spain or
Brazil. Was it not, he would ask, apparent to every one
that the Government had not the power to compel
Spain to put an end to the slave-trade? He thought
they, ought to compel the countries who had engagements
with this country to put an end to the traffic, and by
persuasion to endeavour to bring those countries to
enter into an engagement to put an end to the slave-
trade. When the papers were laid on the table of the
House it would be seen whether her Majesty's Govern-
ment were liable and deserving of
.the insinuations that
had been thrown out by the Noble Lord, and whether
they had not done all they could to remedy the evil com-
plained of by the Noble Lord. He was sure they did
not deserve the wholesale condemnation that had been
cast upon them by the Noble Lord.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he never meant to
argue that the Government should violate the law of
nations. What he meant to say was, that there were
treaties, if properly carried into eflect, which would put
an end to the slave trade-altogether.
Mr. P. HOWARD deprecated any difference being
made between any Foreign States. He hoped in the
next session some measurres would be adopted by a hich
the impolitic course that had hitherto been pursued
would be avoided.
The House then went into Committee, and upon
The vote of 129,0922 for the salaries of Admiralty
officers,