The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-07 00:00:00

NEWINGTON VESTRY BILL COMMITTEE.

As soon its the SPEAKEIt had returned to the
House, and resumed the Chair, _

Sir R. WILSON addressed the Chair on the
subject of some most disorderly and irregular
conduct which had taken place that morning in a
Committee up stairs, appointed by the House.—
This conduct was of such a nature that he con-
ceived it incumbent on him to represent it to the
House, and to obtain that justice from them,
which it had been found impossible to obtain
from the Chairman of the Committee. The House
would remember the circumstances under which
the present Committee on• the Newington Select
Vestry Bill_ was appointed. It had been the
opinion of the last Committee on that Bill, that
the preamble of the Bill was not true, in conse-
quence of some of the Standing Orders of that
House not having•been strictly complied with.—
Upon receiving this Report the House was in.
duced to appoint a Special Committee, to ex-
amine into the abstract point of whether the
Standing Orders alluded to had been infringed
or not. That Special Committee having reported
that the said Orders of the House had been suf-
ficiently complied with to .justify the further
progress of the Bill, the House again appointed
a Committee on the Pill, with power to send for
persons, papers, and records. this was the his-
tory of the transactions up to that day, when on
the assembling of the , Committee, his Hon.
Friend, the Member for, the Borough, thought
fit to make a proposition to send for the Report
of the Special Committee, which' motion was
carried by a decided majority ; but, notwith-
standing that, the Chairman,.the Hon. Member
for Surrey (Mr. H. Sumner) was the means of

preventing the decision of the Committee from
being carried into effect. Under these circum-
stances, the perverseness of the Chairman ob-
structing all proceeding with the business of the
Committee, he (Sir RAY.) moved an adjournment,
in order that they might have the benefit of elle
Speaker's advice; for their exclusion from sending
for the Report by which they were authorised to
sit, appeared to him to be a gross violation
of justice, and the orders of the House itself.
That question was put and carried by a majority
in the negative, and thus they saw themselves
deprived of the means of ascertaining the extent
of the powers with which they were invested, or
of the views by which they were directed to sit
again. Ile was aware that in the space of time
which these proceedings occupied, great disor-
del; prevailed in the Committee ; and in the
course of the discussion about to ensue, allusions
would be made to the irregularities that were
committed ; but he begged to ask who were the
cause and origin of the whole ? Those undoubt-
edly who refused to send for the papers demand-
ed by the Committee in the first place, and then
opposed a reasonable proposition to refer the
questions at issue to the Speaker. Such conduct
was in violation of every principle of common
sense and justice. He was confident the House
would bear out the decision of the Committee,
by ordering the paper in question to be referred
to it, and he hoped it would be remembered that
if they did not enforce their own regulations they
could have no hope of being able to command
respect from out of doors. For these reasons he
should move " That the Reports made by the
late Committee on the Standing Orders of the
House with respect to the Newington Select
Vestry Committee, be referred to the said Com-
mittee."

Mr. 11. SUMNER did not rise for the purpose of
opposing the motion of the Gallant Member ;
nor for the purpose of making any reply to his
observations as to the origin and cause of the dis-
orders which had occurred that morning in the
Committee of which he was the Chairman,
(Hear, hear!)—lie should only observe, for the
present, that the course of proceeding there was
one of the most extraordinary he had ever known
or witnessed.—(Cheers from both sides of the
House.)—T hose proceedings opened a question
for that House relative to the regulation of Com-
mittees up stairs, as important as any that had
ever yet come before it ; and he, as Chairman,
should feel it his duty to bring it before them in
the spirit of complaint. lie would not at that
moment be led into a partial debate. The matter
was of that consequence that he would not bring
it forward till there should be a full House, in
about an hour or two.

Mr. HUME said, that the present was the proper time for
the Honourable Member to bring forward his threatened
complaint. He felt that it would be the duty of some Member
to bring forward a complaint against the. Chairman himself.—
(Hear, hear !) •
Mr. H. SUMNER said, the only reason for delaying his
motion was the very thin state of the House.
Mr. HUME said, that he thought the reason an extraordi-
nary one. He saw millions of the public money were voted by
much thinner Houses.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. LITTLETON took the opportunity of calling the at-
tention of the House to the manner in which private business
was conducted • and he gave notice of his intention to bring the
subject before the House during the present Session.
' Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW said, that the ground of difference,
as appeared to him, sprang out of a motion that the Report of
the Select Committee should be read.

Mr. LAMBTON said, that he was the person that made
the motion. It was, that the Report should be laid before the
Committee—not that it should be read.

Mr. W. WYNN said, that the motion was altogether un-
necessary, for every Member of the Committee had an oppor-
tunity of referring to the Journals when the Report was to
be made.

Mr. F. PALMER said, that it appeared to him that one
part of the Committee wished to refuse information to the
other.

Mr. SUMNER persisted in his intention of bringing the
question forward in the course of the.evening.
Mr. G. BENNET said. that if the House went into a dis-
cussion, they,would be edified with hearing the statement of
one side contradicted by the statement of the other. ,
Mr. S. WORTLEY suggested the propriety of deferring
further discussion on the subject.
Mr. P. MOORE bore testimony to the confusion which
reigned in the Committee. Every motion that had been made
by Gentlemen on his side of the House had been negatived.
Mr. W. COURTENAY begged to call to the recollection
of the House that the motion of the Honourable and Gallant
General,'.the Member for Southwark, remained to be dispos-
ed of.

- - Sir R. HERON said, that if the Honourable Member (Mr.
Sumner) had, as Chairman of the Committee, pursued a more
emperate line of conduct, the present transaction never would
have been brought before the`House. The conduct of the 110-
nourable Member-.appeared more like a partial advocate than
an indifferent and impartial Chairman of a Committee of that
House.—The motion was then put and carried.

COMPLAINT AGAINST THE CHAIRMAN OF THE

COMMITTEE.

Mr. HU3IE next rose, and was about to address the House,
when

Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that if the HonOurable Member
were about to bring forward any motion respecting the conduct
of the Chairman, he would protest against such motion without
previous notice being given.
Mr. HUME submitted to the Speaker that the present was
the time to call the. attention of the House to transactions re-
specting a private Bill.
The SPEAKER said that the House would not expect from
him to decide as to what was or was not the proper time. The
House was aware that private business was usually transacted
in the early part of the evening, but it was the privilege of
Honourable Members to bring public matters under the atten-
tion of the House at any time they might think fit.
Mr. HUME then proceeded to make his motion.
lie should not have persisted in troubling the
House at that particular period, had it not been
for the threat held out by the Hon. Chairman
that he would, as
.soon as the Speaker took the
Chair, bring a charge against every individual
who had opposed him in the Committee. The
lion. Member then recounted the occurrences of
the morning in the Committee alluded to. There
were he believed twenty-five Members on each
side who would be able to corrobciate his state-
ment, or put the House in possession of the facts
of the case. As he disapproved of the principle
of the Bill, which went to disfranchise a great
number of the inhabitants of the Parish of New-
ington, he had made a point of attending this
Committee, which that morning he had found
very fully attended with not less than 50. or 60
Members. His lion. Friend moved as he went
into the Committee that the Report of the Se.,
Ject Committee be read. A.. division took place
pn this question, which was opposed by the lion.
Chairman. At• the moment of proceeding to di-
vide three members came in, one of whom was
the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury. The Chair,
man upon this declared that those members should
riot vote, and directed them in a manner not re-
markable for mildness or urbanity to leave the
room. His Hon. Friend the Member for Shrews-
bury refused to do this, declaring that although
he might not be permitted to rote he saw no

reason for quilling the room, .and had never
heard of such a command - coining from the
`Chairman of any COnirnittee up- stairs before.
The Honourable Chairman. - then, with no
ghat alteration in tone -or gesture-, ordered
the Clerk to write',tlOwn the names of these
three Members, vowing • that, they should not
be allowed to vote. This• might tend to give
the House a notion of the temper likely to have
been. created in the Committee: The lion.
Member for Hull declared,. that he should have
been in the room time enough to be entitled to
vote had. it not been for the exit of strangers
which prevented his entering, although he had his
hand on. the handle of the door, and heard the
question put from the Chair. Under these cir-
cumstances he contended it was the duty of the
Chairrnan to put the question again. This the
Chairman refused. •It was then moved that the
Committee should adjourn, in order to refer the:
point in dispute to the Speaker. This motion
was also negatived, although he was convinced
there could not have been a more reasonable one un-
der the circumstances made. The division accord-
ingly took Place ; and when the tellers handed up
their report of the numbers, through the Clerk,
to the Chairman, that Hon. Gentleman, with that
peculiar Suavity of manners for which he was
distinguished, threw the paper down on the table,
declaring that he would-not put it. Such were
the circumstances which originated the confusion
complained of ; and although he scarcely knew
if he were proceeding regularly, he should movk.!
that it be a resolution of the House, " That the
conduct of the Chairman of the Committee ap-
pointed by that House'to sit upon the Newington
Select Vestry Bill, was intemperate and irregu-
lar, and led to riot and disorder in the Com-
mittee'

The Honourable Member was proceeding to write down his
motion, in .order to hand it to the Speaker to put to the House,
when— "

Mr. NVYNE remarked upon the anomaly of calling upon
the House to pass an opinion upon a subject of which they
could know nothing.—(Hear !)--If the motion were enter-
tained, the House would be occupied the next hour and a half
in hearing contradictory staternents from the two sides of the
House, which could Lead them to no satisfactory conclusion.
Mr. HUME declared his readiness to meet the convenience
of the House, by either withdrawing or delaying his motion ;
for, as he had before said, it was only brought in consequence
of the threat of the Honourable Member for Surrey to bring
his charge against them as soon as the Speaker should take the
Chair.

Mr. WROTTESLEY thought it would-be most inconve-
nient to the "'Ouse to go on with this matter at present, and he
thought the better way would be to adjourn the debate.
The SPEAKER pointed out the inconvenient shape of the
motion proposed to be made by the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen. If the question for the consideration of the House were
some abstract point as to the duties of Chairman of a Committee
under any supposed circumstances, there would be no difficulty
in the House entertaining it. But when the question was a
charge against an individual for his personal conduct in the
discharge of the duties of his situation generally, he did not see
how the House could make their way clearly through it. At
all events, if a proposition Of that nature were to be entertained,
it would Le necessary to hive the Minutes of the Committee in
question, in order to have the best and fullest information to
help them to a correct decision. .
Sir J. MACINTOSH would remind the House that the
whole originated in the notice given by the Hon. Member for
Surrey. Undoubtedly it was competent to a Chairman of a
Committee to originate a motion in thatliouse with respect to
the proceedings of that Committee. But he believed that for
a Chairman to give notice of a criminatory proceeding against
any part of a Committee, without the authority of the majority,
was at least unusual. He thought that the notice was objec-
tionable also upon the ground that it was introduced at a mo-
ment when the parties must be so heated by their recent alter-
cation as to lead to the occurrence of scenes, such as no friend
to order and the dignity of that House would wish to see take
place. How fax, indeed, the. Hon. Member himself, with that
peculiar felicity of his temper to which all who ever knew him
could bear testimony, might come to the discussion free from
any share of those heats and irritations, it was impossible for
him to say ; but he would venture to assert, that very few in-
deed of the parties on either side could expect to meet the ques-
tion with that 'calmness and conciliation which were. necessary
to make the discussion any way beneficial. Indeed, he depre-
cated the introduction of the subject altogether. It could pro.
duce nothing but discredit to the Committee and the House.._
He was persuaded that the Hon. Member for Surrey, on con-
sideration, would' withdraw his notice ; and he was sure that
the motion of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen,
which was purely defensive, would be also withdrawn.
Mr. SUMNER said, he would not be thrown off his guard
by the very invidious insinuations of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (a laugh), or the very unhandsome part which he
had taken. He denied that his notice, thOugh one certainly of
complaint, was of a criminatory nature, and he was ready to
gO on with it. He waited .for the opinion of the House, whe-
ther he should' ppear as the accuser or the accused.
Mr. WYNN suggested the propriety of a delay to Monday.
Mr. DENISON said, he was sorry that the Hon. Gentleman
should have been betrayed into a slight deviation from the
right line.
Mr. SUMNER spoke to order. He wished to know whe-
ther he was now called upon to defend his conduct ?
Mr. S. WORTLEY suggested the propriety of the Hon.
Member withdrawing his notice of motion till Monday. '
After the Hon. Gentleman sat down, several Members rose
together and caused some confusion in the House.
Mr. DENISON said, that, if he were not interrupted, he
would have made a proposition which would have reconciled
all parties ; it was, that the Committee having got a paper
which they deemed essential, if the Honourable Member for
Surrey would withdraw his threat of an accusation, the Mem-
bers of the Committee would be contented not to proceed
further.

Mr. SUMNER refused to withdraw his notice, and was
proceeding to make some observations, when—
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that he hoped a delay of at least
48 hours would be allowed to take place.
Mr. SUMNER said, it was indifferent to him ; he was ready
to proceed now or on Monday.
Mr. BENNET would object to the delay of a single hour.
He was sure that on whatever day this subject might be inquir-
ed into, the House would find itself in this singular predica-
ment—namely, that it would have twenty-five Members on one
side flatly contradicting the assertions of twenty-five Members
on the other.—(A laugh.)—That this would be the case he '
would pledge himself. If this was the case on the onset, was
it likely that the progress and conclusion would be a bit more
satisfactory ? For-his part he felt no zeal for a conciliatory ad-
justment from any alarm about his own conduct. He would
submit that it should be considered by the House that what'
passed there went forth to the world, and would ask how far
it might be to their credit that it should he blazoned forth, in
every part of the empire, that a number of Gentlemen on both
sides had so lost their temper, that one party flatly contradicted
another? He would recommend, therefore, that the matter re-
ceived be postponed sine die.
The SPEAKER said, that the House always reposed in its
Committees the utmost confidence, and never imputed inten-
tions to pursue a wrong line of conduct. With respect to the
points that came immediately,before the House, the practice of
Parliament was, that Members who entered the House whilst
strangers were withdrawing, after the question put, had not a
right to vote on the question. As to the other point, it appear-
ed to him, that where the Report of the Tellers agreed as to
numbers, that report was always acted on. Members were
never counted a second time,unless where there existed a strong
impression that an error had taken place in counting. Mis-
conceptions and errors might take place without room exist-
ing for throwing any imputation on the conduct of any
party. He suggested, that if any further proceeding should
be deemed necessary, the House was more likely to come to
a fair and temperate judgment on an abstract question as to
the regular motion of proceeding on the Committee, than
it could do by involving itself in questions of a pertonal
nature.

After t& SPEAKER sat down, the subject dropped without
any observation. •

A Message from the. Lords requested that Sir M. Lopez
might be allowed to give. evidence before their Lordships, on the
Grampound Disfranchisement Bill.—The House replied that
they would send an answer by Messengers of their own.-
CRIMINAL CODE.
Sir W. LEMON presented a petition from certain inhabi-
tants of Falmouth, praying for a• revision of the Criminal Code.
Laid on the table,
.I_l4 ordered toA_printed..

PUBLIC DI ESS.

Mr. lIEATHCOIt presented a petition from the inhabi-

Cants of the parish of litii-Aerstone, in Lincolnshire, complain-
ing of the pressure of taxation, and of the excessive amount of
the poor rates, and praying for the adoption of an efficient sys-
tem of economy an:dietrenchment.-.-The petition was laid on
the table, and ~..-dered tO be printed.
Sir It. HERON presented a petition from thelown of Stain-
ford, in Lincolnshire, • which, he observed, was most mime-
respectably. signed. He perfectly agreed in the sen-
timents contained in the petition, and he lioped that the repre-
sentations which were pouring in from every part of the coun-
try would at length convince the House of the necessity of af-
fording some effectual relief to the agricultural interest.—Laid
on the table.