The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-22 00:00:00

much for that as for the principle of providing for the perience, added to the example presented them in Russia
religion of the majority of the people of that country; —he continued in the same opinion ;he would ask him,
eiel be did think that if it had been so contrary as it were his fears all abandoned—was his alarm mitigated ?
was represent( d to be to the sentiments of the And be felt curious to know, would the man who told
people of England, they would have had annual and them, in 1838, that his fears were justified, tell
repeated meetings at Exeterehell to express the feelings them, in 1845, that- those fears were ground-
of the. people against it. The grant, he must confess, less, unworthy, and fanatical ?—(Leud cheers.)
derived in his opinion great importance from the If it was desired to govern Ireland wisely and well, this
way in which her Majesty's Government had acted in result could not be accomplished by puttiltg the reins of
making the grant. Their mode of proceeding evi- Governmentsinto the handsof Irish bishops and a Malan
dently. . showed that there was to be a new policy Catholic hierarchy. This plan had been pursued in
pursued with respect to religion. Sir R. Inglis, and the France, but what had been the consequences ? Why,
Gentlemen who had acted with him, had endeavoured to the Government bad been shaken to its centre, and anar-
fasten on her Majesty's Government last night, chy, confusion, and bloodshed had been the result.—
a disregard of the wishes of the people ; but (Hear, hear.) And this, probably, might be the un-
he had found that the dislike of the people happy effects in Great Britain. Religious peace and pri-
of this country was rather to the source from vileges were not to be scorned, and he would appeal to
which the means were to be derived, than to the his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State whether
purpose to which those means were to be applied. these things were to be obtained by the policy now pur
He had himself presented many petitions against this sued towards Ireland. His Right Hoe. Friend wished
Bill, -but there was not one which did not dwell on to allay the agitation in Ireland, but, he would ask, was
that particular point. It seemed to him that there the present measure the best means to do so ? When
could he no grounds whatever for the objections the measure for Maynooth was originally proposed, the
rah,ed by the -Honourable Colonel who had just agitation in Ireland was nearly quieted. The receipts in
sat dowr, and the Right Honourable Baronet the the Conciliation Hall had been diminished, and the
Member for Oxford, and by the Recorder for the City monster meetings had eearly ceased. He would tell
of Lunion. They at least-were not opposed to cedes'. the Government that the moment the announcement
a-.tieul endowments. They would hive no objection to of the proposed measure bad reached the Irish shore,
extend them, provided those extensions were made to agitation bad been re-commenced. The consequerces
the church to which they belonged.—(Hear, hear.) were, that assemblies had been held, of so portentous a
It did not seem to him, therefore, that that principle character, that a question was asked by an Honourable
was founded on religious grounds. He could not under- Member the other night to know what was the meaning
stand how lion. Members could imagine that Ireland of these meetings. Ile would inquire, was it intended
could be governed successfully by the system of exclud • to make the Roman Catholic priesthood amenable to the
ing from the benefits of State provisions six millions of law, or was it intended to render the law subject to the
people, ought of a population of eight millions. He had hierarchy ? Was the law to be placed under the domi-
not heard the Hon. Gentleman state by what other sys- nation of any body of ecclesiastics of any class ? He
teen Ireland could be governed than that of concession. should be told that this state of things was foreign to the
The Hon. Member who had just spoken had said that first principles of the Constitution. It was well ; but he
concession after concession had been made, ard yet would say that the priesthood of Ireland were to be
there was no benefit derived. Was be (Lord H. Vane) found the firmest and most unflinching friends and ad-
to think that the Hon. Gentleman desired to govern Ire- vacates of repeal, and, therefore, no peace could be had
land by force ? He would like to know whether that with the Homan Ca:holic hiera;chy, for it was pledged
had not been tried—whetherit had not been unsuccessful, to agitation, and to such was the government of Ireland
and whether on account of its non-success the Govern- to be delivered. To this tour: e he felt sure the Right
went had been obliged to adopt the principle of con- Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland would object.
cession which hail been so long recommended to them ? The cases ho hail quoted from at a former period, re-
There was one argument which he had heard, that cer • gardine, the conversion of Roman Catholics to Pro-
taio parties, rather than consent to this measure, would testeetism, would give no peace to Ireland, even
concede repeal ; and they gave.this reason, that they if all its inhabitants were changed from their original
could never agree to endow a religion from which they belief: Ile would refer the House to the report that had
so widely differed. But they should remember that been mad,, and if they recurred to the trial at Tralee,
while the doctrines of Roman Catholicism remained the they would find his statements confirmed in ese ry parti-
principles of the greet majority of the people of Ireland, cular, as to the part taken by the Catholic priests in
this was the only m ;de by which justice could be ren- suborning witnesses, to make a pretended declaration of
dered an injured, and conciliation made to an exasperated, faith in the Protestant religion. From a report, also,
people. Deeming the propositioli expedient, because it which had been made by a Committee of the House in
was just, he should give the Government, in their 1835, it would be found that Roman Catholic priests had
attempt to accomplish it, his most sincere and cordial on many occasions instigated and persuaded the ignorant
support.—(Cheera.) peasantry to take part in opposing the just and legal
Mr. COLQUHOUN would abstain from treating the claims which their landlords had on them. The Hon.
question in a religious or polemical point of view, as it Baronet might disapprove of these statements, but he
had already been discussed in that form so ably, by the could not controvert them. And again, in 1839, he had
Itght Hon. Baronet the Member for the University of heard of a man who had been condemned by the magis-
Oxterd, last night, although the dense and most legi- tracy, but because he had served the priesthood, they
mate feeling of the country decidedly was opposed to it had stepped forward unanimously as a body to protect
on those grounds. But ho would rather treat it as a the criminal from the sentence so richly deserved, and to
question of State policy, and follow the Noble Lord who snatch the just victim of the law from the hands
preceded him, in considering it in that light. The rea- of justice. There was another circumstance, too, in
son why this petition had not been signed by more than Ireland, which would not be tolerated in scarcely
nine clergymen was, because, as the Bishop of Cashel any other country on the face of the earth. A priest
had stated to him, it had not been sent to him in time, there might denounce a man from the altar. He would
before the nine clergymen who had signed it had un- inquire was it not inconsistent with the liberty of the
guardedly put it in the newspapers.—(Laughter.) He subject, and contrary to the law, that any person'should
could not see that there was anything very ludicrous in be pubhcly exposed, and held up to party vengeance at
that, His correspondent further stated that he had got the mere whim of a Popish priest?—(Hear, hear.) The
another petition, signed in Dublin by over 260 Protestant Hon. Member then read a statement from a paper which
clergymen, and that, in fact, the Protestant clergymen of he held in his hand of a case of prosecution in which
leeland were unanimously against it. If his Right Hon. the plaintiff had been denounced by the priest, and on
Friend understood the position of Ireland as well as his the same evening that the curse was uttered the unfor-
friend the Recorder did, he would not be surprised at tunate victim was murdered. He would ask the ques.
the Protestant clergy mot coming forward uponoceasions tion then whether any ecclesiastic was authorised
of this kind, because they dreaded being denounced by by his religion to denounce any man? He was quite sa-
the Roman Catholic priests. He had received two letters, tisfied that no Ministry could ever succeed in governing
one of which was from the Rev. Mr. Pool, who lived in Ireland by means of the priests. He would ask
the County Tipperary, and the writer stated that in his whether the College of Maynooth had ever produced,
parish there were eight Prouotants upon whom mur- during the fifty years it had been established, any per-
derous assaults had been committed ; four of these had son, who, by his learning and attainments, had added
fallen victims, and two had been mutilated for life. anything to the literature of the country? With the
This showed the state of alarm in which the Rev. Gen- exception of Dr. Miele and Dr. Higgins, who were
tleman lived. The other gentleman, whose letter he both great writers in newspapers, and in the habit of
held in his hand, was a clergyman of the name or fulminating in broad sheets their peculiar opinions, he
O'Grady, who lived near Castlecary. He stated that believed Maynooth had never produced any literary
he and another clergyman had been attacked on character of any note. It was a blunder to _sup-
their way to church. He said he knew of nothing that pose the Irish people would be satisfied with
he had done to give offence, except that he had been the large endowment of Maynooth, and that the agita-
the means of converting two Roman Catholic families.— tion regnant in the sister country could be calmed by it.
(Hear. hear, from Mr. Sergeant Murphy.) Did the To suppose so was contrary to reason and common
Hon. Gentleman mean by that cheer that the people of sense. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Go-
Ireland were in such a state of vassalage that they dared vernment, by insisting on the measure, had split his
not change their religion if they pleased ?—(Cheers.) party into pieces, had caused confusion and jealousy-
He would now briefly state bis objections to this mea- amongst those who were before united, and lout driven
sure. When the Conservative party were in Opposition, from his side his firmest friends, to enjoy. for a brief
the House must well recollect the position which they season, a victory gained over his former supporters and
took with respect to Irish affairs. If that party wished earliest associates.
to maintain a character for consistency, they ought to Mr. MACKENZIE then rose, and said he would
adhere to those principles which they maintained when trespass on the attention of the House for only a very
in Opposition. However strong the feeling of the lower few minutes. He had not been understood in an expla-
classes of Protestants in Ireland against the Catholics, nation he had lately given in another place on the
he thought that the feeling amongst the better classes matter of the Maynooth question. He spoke at Peebles,
had been much modified. As far as the Roman Catho- before people who had great confidence in his honour,
lies were concerned, he believed that the better party but his speech had been misrepresented. What he said
then in Ireland had a desire to put a stop to that agita- was, that the small greet to Maynooth had done mis-
don which was at present existing in that coun- chief, and that he would support the large grant as an
try, and which prevented the introduction of experiment. He further recommended the people of
capital into Ireland. If the Government would Ireland on that occasion to cherish the Ueion as the
act on a straightforward principle, they would have a people of Scotland had done, to repudiate agitation, and
strong Roman Catholic party upon their side. The Go. to devote themselves to the cultivation of the land. This
vernment, however, seem inclined to conciliate the par- was a slight sketch of his speech at Peebles, and such
ties which were now agitating Ireland. One party had were still his opinions.
a powerful organ called the Nation. Its articles were Mr. WYSE thought the tenor of the speech of the
full of vigour, fire, and animation, and he had read them Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle was far from
with much pleasure. Indeed, they were so well written, being satisfactory, and wasniuch inorelikaly to excite than
that it almost made one wish to be a rebel to write such to allay agitation in Ireland. He did not recognise eitherin
fiery language and to read such writing. This party, the numb. rof the petitions, or of the signatures, what
therefore, was a dangerous -one, and it was most dan- might be termed the universal will of the people of Eng-
gerous to attempt to admit its claims. Whit had been the land, or anything approaching to it. Every mode had
conduct of the Government in dealing with these parties been resorted to to inflame the public mind on thi, ques-
in Ireland ? They brought in the Bequests Act last tion, and he would ask those who boasted of a million of
session, and no objection was to be raised to that men- signatures, why they had not paid the same attention to
sure. It had, however, been denounced by a large party petitions signed by 800,000 of 'he Irish people for revi-
in Ireland ; but it was applauded by the Young Ireland sum into the State trials ?—(Hear, hear.) The peti-
party, or the party represented by the Nation. Mr. tioners might be classed under three heads—those who
O'Connell, in Conciliation Hall, had said, that before he thought it a misapplication of the public money upon
could give it his support he must have the imprimatur financial considerations—those who were opposed to en.
of the Catholic clergy. The Nation contended that no lowment—anti those who opposed it on religious
reference was to be made to the clergy. In this, how- grounds. He thought the financial argument so weak
ever, the two parties were cordially agreed, namely, that it could not be entertained by any sensible man.—
in the wish for the severance of England from Ireland. (The Hon. Member read an extract from a petition
The Irish part of her Majesty's Government was not so which prayed against the grant oil this ground.) If the
strong as the English part of the Government, while it English people objected to the grant because it was applied
ought to hare been the strongest. The Nation, or re- to exclusively Irish purposes, he would answer them by
publican party in Ireland, said this, and agitation of sating that Ireland contributed in return towards the
course sprang up. There was the agitation of the support of English and Scotch establishments. It
O'Connell-party, and the agitation of the Nation party, should be recollected that at the time of the union the
both parties having one object—the severance of the debt of England was 400,000,0001., whilst the debt of
two countries. Such was the state of the north of Ire Ireland was only 23,000,0001, and taxation upon Ireland
land at the time of the monster meetings that the Under- had increased in proportion, as w.as admitted by a
Secretary for Ireland had declared his conviction that Committee of that House. Then as regarded the l'ro-
the peace of those districts was seriously threatened. A testant Church, was there not ample evidence to show
circumstance had been reported to him (the Under- that immense sums were devoted to the maintenance of
Secretary) that a Roman Catholic and a Protestant who the Protestant Church, even in Catholic districts. The
had been previously walking together in feelings of Commissioners of Public Instruction in Ireland had re-
perfect amity, had then separated in jealous defiance; ported, that out of 2,000 parishes of which Ireland was
each went out at night armed, having his house bar- composed, 217 of them did not contain a single Protes-
ricaded, and lived in distrust, if not hatred, towards the tant, and yet a Protestant rector and a Protestant church
other. His Hon. Friend, Mr. Lucas, had felt that were supported in them. Another return showed that
if the Irish Protestants rose in the north, the Roman in 1776 the Roman Catholic population was 1,300,000;
Catholics in the south would be equally exaspe- the Episcopalian, 545,000. In 1834 the Catholic popu-
rated, and the peace of the country be endan- latiou was more than 7,000,000, whilst there were only
gered. In that emergency he sought for powers to 752,000 Episcopalians. 'rho Catholio landed proprietors
prevent a crisis which could only be followed by the were obliged to contribute towards the support of
most fatal consequences. He had applied for powers, the Protestant Church as well as their own, and the
but to whom ? Was it to the military Was it to the expense of maintaining the Catholic clergy was very
constabulary ? No, he entrusted the safety of Ireland to large, thus the Irish people were obliged to support two
the Protestant Church, and to the clergy of that coun- Churches. There were 2,000 parish priests. 1,128
try.—(Hear, hear) He besought them to use all- their curates, besides the bishops, whom the Catholics paid.
influence over the naturally iiritated• feelings of their At the time Maynooth was founded there were no leis
flocks ; they had, to their honour, adopted that course ; than twenty-set en professors, and 278 Irish students in
and to them, he feared not to avow, was owing the pre- the colleges of France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy. He
servation of the peace et* Ireland.—(Cheers.) If such was not prepared to say, either there or elsewhere, that
had been the course of the Protestant Church in Ireland, the Catholic Church in Ireland would ba prepared to
what had been the conduct of that House towards it ? take upon it any alliance with the State if any restrics
(Hear, hear.) Why, when that Church approached the tion were to be put on its discipline. If the Catholic
Government with a request—not asking for sordid emo- Church were to be endowed, he did not see why the
lument, nor for increased revenues, but asking for secu- monastic institutions should not be endowed also. But
rity throughout the country, urging truly," You have put this grant. was entirely different in character from any
down our Protestant associations, put down also repeal which involved the tenets of the Catholic Church. The
organisation; vou have put down our Orange lodges, put grant when once out of their hands would be beyond
down their monster meetings." And. when' they asked their reach. Its object was to elevate the Roman
for a grant to their schools, as was accorded the Catholic clergy in the country. He believed that there
English Dissenters, not wishing to put down the system was no opposition to this object, but it was opposed
of national education, though from its principles they because it was likely to promote the tenets of the Ca-
conscientiously differed, but asking the House to give tholic Church. Yet ashen-the Regium Donum was given
them, for the instruction of their 100,000 Protestant to the Presbyterians, and when any gift was to be made
children the same as they freely bestowed on the 35,000 to the Dissenters, no mention was made of the tenets of
Roman Catholic children, what was the Right Hon. the party on whom the gift was bestowed, and it was
Baronet's reply ?—(Cheers) When the request was only when the Human Catholic Church was in question
preferred by the meekest prelate on either Bench, dig- that any fear was entertained, or any obloquy was
nified by noble blood, but better by Christian charity, thrown out. And this brought him to the third point of
more ennobling than the proudest lineage, his prayer hie 'observations. Many petitions had been pre-
was treated with indifference, he might almost say seined in that House, in which the Catholic Church had
with haughtiness and incivility.—(Hear.) And now, been charged with all sorts of evils. Why this was
forsooth, this measure was proposed to pacify the people going back to the days of Lord George Gordon, when all
of Ireland, to conciliate, to affiliatel—(Bear, hear.) But the virulence of sectarian zeal was let forth, in order to
what had its reception there already evinced ? The crush the freedom of religious opinion, The Roman
Notion of the 3d of May last contained an article scoffing Catholic religion had been charged with the abomina-
and spurning it 5s a sop, and that was the feeling of the dons of anti-Christ, hut he should like to know when
important section it reoresented--(Hear, • hear)—and anti-Christ lived and when he died. He would beg
Dr. Higgins, whom the Right Hon. Baronet was so fond them to remember that the Catholics were Christians,
of quoting as an authority, had spoken equally plain. and he should wish them to remember that many princi-
But if they wanted a proof of the working of such a sys- pies were entertained in common, and if the Catholic
tem as the one now proposed, they had only to look at religion was false, how was it that it had lived so long ?
France, where the Monarch had been obliged to entreat The charge of persecution had been thrown out, but he
the leader of the Opposition to extricate him from the might retort it on those by whom it had been applied.
difficulties whieh the Roman Catholic establishments By far the better plan would be to sink all differences,
had entailed. If such were the danger attending a sys- and to avoid those disputes 'which plucked out cf the
tem in a country where the Bishops and clergy of the Gospel the bright gem of charity, and tended to divide
Roman Catholic Church were nominated by the Go- men from each other, and to excite those points of dif-
vernment, and therefore fettered by the obliga ference and oivision which was opposed to every in-
tions, and kept in submission to the yoke terest of humanity. We should hear no more of these
of their supporters, what was to be expected charges. Many extracts had been made from the pas-
from establishments held under no controul ? sages of certain books of the Catholics, and an attempt
The Parliament here had no such hold on the Church of was made to fix upon them certain principles which
Ireland, they possessed no veto in the nomination of they could not acknowledge. In a speech of his on a
their bishops, they could not degrade fur misconduct, former occasion, he had made quotations from the books
nor punish for resistance. Yet, with all these advan- of the Protestants to show their equally objectionable
cages on the side of France, what was its position ? The sentiments. He had done this with no view to recrimi-
Right Hon. Baronet, in 1838, in adopting the views of nation—with no object to throw a false colour on the
the Member for Selkirkshire, who, to his honour, had character of their opponents. In doing this he had
preferred principle to place, a somewhat more creditable been- accused of uttering words which were not in
course than another Member, who had preferred place to Luther's works, but such was not the case. He had
either principle or reason—(l.4nd cries of " Hear, acted honestly, and he did not ascribe any false princi-
hear")—had talked of the progress, not of Popery—for pies to the Protestants, because he believed that any
that word had been sacredly guarded from even escaping isolated passages should give a colour to a whole creed.
the lips of the Right Hon. Baronet—nor of the Roman An attempt had been made to attach to-the Roman Ca-
Catholics, but of that section of the Roman Catholics tholic priests an imputation of sedition ; but it should be
in Europe, who wished to subordinate civil recollected that many of these priests were innoa
alliance
ciet
government to ecclesiastical rule.—(Hear, hear.) with the English State. If there was any sedition,
He would ask him whether, after the recent experience was to be ascribed to their own system and its laws, and
of France, reduced to such straits as that country was was occasiofied by the principle adopted in 1688. The
by the ultraluoutaue party—whether, after such ex. Cathclici had, it was_ true, acted with energy of late,

but they had their associations, with O'Connell at their
head, and the priest of the present day could act with a
courage of which the priest in 1796 would not dare to
conceive. They should recollect that the Irish people
were now aware of their rights and of their power. They
felt that they were now worthy to stand by the side of
Englishmen—they felt their own growing power and
wealth, and the results of their application to industry.
Let them, then, not hear any more of toleration.—
(Hear, hear.) The Catholics of Ireland felt that they
were entitled to be leok,d upon as an integral portion of
the empire, as those wh were to be considered with a re-
ference to their numbers, and their wealth, and he antici-
pated therefore the passing of this vote as a measure of
necessary justice, but he would not assume an attitude of
defiance; he would not replicate on their opponents, but
would on the contrary meet them in a spirit of harmony,
and trust hereafter both Catholic and Protestant would
go on togethi-i in a spirit of harmony, and mutually
assist in premed: g the general benefit.—(Cheers )
Mr. I)ARBY said, that respect to the question
now before the House, he (Mr. Darby) had looked at
various times over the Acts of Parliament, and on re-
viewing the whole subject, he came to the cenclusion
that the object of the Act of Parliament was not the
propagation ot* 11,,man Catholic principles, but a desire
to keep out revolutionary doctrines. The College of
Mayneoth ens -f unded with that view, and it was ex-
pected that those who professed tie Roman Catholic
faith would have supported it. He had heard a Right
Hon. M. mber (Mr. Macaulay as we understood)
speak of secular education, but the present
endowment went beyond that. They were now about
to grant an endowment over which they could afterwards
have no control, and the House had received no assu-
ranceaa extendthey
couldstill fujratdhge
judge from
frm t
that the Government would not, at a future period,
Baronet, he thought that the College of Maynooth was
Right Hon.
benefitshetosptthta?ethinosftittheati4)ll. As far
likely to look fur still greater assistance. It had been
asked why was Belgium sati,fied, and why were other
Roman Catholic countries satisfied? He should answer,
simply b.cause they were Raman Catholic countries,
with a Roman Catholic E:tab:ished Church. Hen. Gen-
tlemen sp ke of past revolutions. lie (Mr. Darby)
would tell these Hon. Members that no revolution had
ever taken place in that country that was not
in its very origin and nature a religious revolution ; and
he believed aat the objection this country entertained
to the measure before the House had its foundation in
that which had originated those very revolutions—he
meant religious scruples. lie considered that that was
really the principle on which the people throughout the
country opposed this grant. If the Right Hon. Baronet
should tell him that they intended to go still further
after this feeling had been exhibited, he should then
ask that Right Hon. Gentleman if he thought that the an-
tagonistic principle which characte-iced the clift,rent sects
of religion in that country—he would ask if he expected
that antagonistic principle would altogether cease,and the
Protestant people of this country become indifferent to
the further extension of Roman Catholic principles?
Hon. Gentlemen had spoken of Protestant ascendancy
in Ireland. If by that was meant a display-of party ban-
ners or party processions, he, for one, would regret the
existence of such an ascendancy. But, if by Protestant
ascendancy was meant that principle which had seated
the present family on the throne, that principle which
form. d the basis of their laws, and was intermixed with
their very Constitution, he said then that, as an admirer
of the British Constitution, he should support that Pro-
testant ascendancy. To that extent and to that only, he
repeated, he would maintain Protestant ascendancy, for
when that ascendancy ceased, he believed the Constitu-
tion of the country would cease also. When that Con-
stitution was destroyed, it would be time to speak of
equalizing all sects and denominations—(Hear)—
and they might then, perhaps, connect the Roman
Catholic Church with the State, which could only
be done, he firmly believed, at the expense of another
revolution. While he admitted the utmost toleration in
religious matters to all classes of his fellow-countrymen,
no matter what their religious opinions might be, he
still maintained that the State should not connect itself
with another Church which he, and the majority of her
Majesty's subjects, believed to be instrumental only in
the propagation of error. He could not help thinking,
seeing the feeling which had been exhibited in all parts
of the country with respect to this proposed grant to
Maynooth, that if the Government attempted to go
further, they would raise a feeling in the minds of the
Protestants of this country that could neither be allayed
nor compassed If the Government did not go further
than the present measure proposed to do, the boon would
be worth nothing ; but he contended that this
was an Endowment to propagate principles which
were antagonistic to the Protestant Constitution. With
respect to the voluntary principle, he mould not advert
to it, and he was sorry to find that it had been mixed up
in this question at all, but he must say that what he had
heard the Hon. Member for Sheffield argue in favour of
that principle, he (Mr. Darby) wished that, for the sake
of his own consistency, he should not hear anything of
the kind from the Hon. Member again. The House
would recollect that the Hon. Member had very warmly
taken up the appropriation question which the Noble Lord
the Member fur London had afterwards adopted, and when
it served his purpose ha threw it away. The Hon. Gen-
tleman took it up again, but found it so troublesome a
toj, that he did not know how to deal with it. He
thought that was an attempt to endow a Church which
the Constitution of the country repudiated, and be said
this without any reference to the opinions of Hon. Mem-
bers of the Roman Catholic faith, although he consi-
dered that even their opinions were not at all times con-
sistent, for while they .at. one time declared the doctrines
of the Roman Catholic Church unchanged and un-
changeable. at another time their language was quite
opposed to that declaration. Holding these opinions, he
considered it his duty to vote against this measure—a
measure which proposed to endow the Church of Rome,
although at direct variance with the whole spirit of the
British Constitution

Sir J. GRAHAM said that, however he might differ
from the leigilt Hon. Member who had spoken from the
benches le•hind him on other points. he yet agreed with
him on this, that it was desirable that no unnecessary
delay should take place in the final settlement of this
question, and holding that opinion, he (Sir J. Graham)
should not have then risen to obtrude himself on the
attention of the House, did he not conceive it his duty
to do so, in consequence
of certain expressions rela-
tive to the conduct of the Government as regarded
Ireland, but more especially
withp rt e dt h
et the
general Government.guestii.n he Before,
shdiudii i
dht hetearfkeeeefoltrheie:
to reply to c.- rtain observations which had emanated
frotn a Right Hon. Geetlernan who, in general, sup-
calling the attention of the House to those observations
which had personal reference to himself ; and, in the
first place, he could not avoid • •
noticing the remarks which
had been offered by the Right lion. Gentleman the
Member for the University of Dublin, and it was the
more painful for him now Co do so, as that Right Hon.
Member had, on form., r occasions, given his cordial sup-
port to the general measures of the Government. That
unpenpel:ly assuming
flight Hon. Gentleman had taken occasion to charge
him (Sir J. Graham), in the most distinct manner, with
neglecting the duties of the departtnentof the Government
over which he presided. He had also charged him with '
lhihbei
es r
dtdyeuato:ft-
the affairs of Ireland. He had also been similarly
to himself a too great control over
taunted by the Hon. Membor for Newcastle. He could
only say, and he was bound to state thus much to the
House, that in the di,chare of what he thought was
his duty, he had exercised a control over the affairs of
that country, with the consent of Parliament, and with,
he thought,. the approbation of the other members of her
Majesty's Government. There had been a very general
feeling exhibited of late, and he (Sir J. Graham) was
persuaded that it was a growing one, that the adminis-
tration of Irish affairs should be assimilated as
much as possible to that which was observed
with regard to that . portion of English and
Scotch affairs with which his department had
to do. And he would say further, that it was impos-
sible adequately to carry on in a proper manner the ad-
ministration of that country unless Parliament should
consent that such an arrangement should continue.
In the management of the affairs of that country he had
had the advantage of the assistance of Lord Eliot and
Earl De Grey ;he had b.-en in constant communication
with them ; end if there was at any time any difference
of opinion between them it did not disturb for one
hour, nor for a minute, the general harmony of theirin-
tercourse. fie had at that very time the pleasure of
being in constant communication with the present Lord-
_r ieutenant of Ireland (Lord Hey trsbury), and while he
gave that Noble Lord credit for the sound principles and
the pure motives by which he. was actuated—an opinion
most independent judgment on he was sure that would be reciprocated from both sides
rinsoetne;ngsett tae most :
em,
of the House—yet he should feel it his duty to
that
td
the
tc.4lNnlollb,rrineemlaLoenndt,rdah.nad
un-
equally exercise the m
what-
ever matter was connected with the administration
of' affairs in that country: With. respect to' this mea-
sureL:shtepnerhfeeCatlleugnead-
W Hon.iWith
particularly, theretopeax(t)
nim
respectity between
to
the charge h
that some person—some nameless individual—had not
received that promotion in the courts of law, to which
eAqieutaulblye-rdnisat(riibreufteerdretdhe
he was justly entitled. He (Sir James Graham) was
not aware of the particular case to which that reference
had been made, but of this h e was persuaded, that not
one appointment connected wi▪ th
a the law courts of Ire-
land: had been made unworthily, fur no judge could
possibly act upon more strict principles of equity than
his Learned Friend, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
No man was more attached.r than himself to the Protes-
tant Church or zealous the maintenance of it, but
he felt bound to tell his Noble. Friend that he was
a firm le liever in the greatprinciple laid down by
Burke, when he stated that whenever a religious ques-
tion arose, it ought to be deci▪ ded on political, and not
on theological grounds. The i!rgunients of the Hoe.
Member tor Birmingham last night were totally at va-
riance with common sense--(Hear, hear.) ) His Hon.
Friend opposite bad referred to the disturbed state of
Ireland. He did not mean to deny that. Ile felt as-
sured that crime against the person was rife in Ireland,
but the Roman Catholic people of Ireland would on the
subjeci of religion bear comparison with any people
in the world.— (Laud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He had been told that bewail a Protestant Minister to a
Protestant Sovereign—that was true ;
but it was not to
be forgotten that he was also the Minister of a Pro-
testant Sovereign who had eight millions of Catholic
subjects..—(Great cheering.) Much ;
- had been said about
Exeter-hall and its still small voice he was sure that
the course they had pursued in that place was calculated
to do anything but good No. one could doubt, it might
be attkmpted to ba put aside, but they could not
diminish the influence of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood over the people of. Irelan.—(Hear, hear.)
In all the vicissitudes of political hie,d the late Marquis
of Londonderry had steadfastlyrastly adhered to this princi-
ple, that it
• was the duty of the Government to provide
for the education of the Catholic priesthood. He would
read to the house an extract from Lord Londonderry's
speech,
when that illustrious person was Lord Castle-
reagh, and Secretary of State for the Foreign Depart-

?RR SUN, LO ND ON, TillnigbA lir MORNING, MAY 22, 1845.

ment.—(The Right Hon. Gentleman then read at
length an extract from a speech delivered by Lord Cas-
tlereagh in 13 17. in which he said that the spiritual and
temporal welfare of the Irish people would he best pro-
moted by giving a superier education to the only instruc-
tors to whom they would listen ) —When he(Sir J. Gra-
ham) was told that to ensure the 'effeclious of the
Irish people, it was necessary to restrict the
power of the priests, and to direct the religion of the
people, his answer was,—" It is," said the Right Hon.
Baronet, " impossible-4defy the House—l dety the Le-
gislature to make the attempt."—(Great cheering.) But
he would only say this, that no Minister of the Crown
ever produced a ineasuie with a more sincere desire to
fulfil his duty to his Sovereign, and to conciliate the af-
fections of his estranged fellow-subjects.--(Cheers.)
The House had been told that this measure had been ex-
torted from her Majesty's Ministers by the reminis-
cence of past agitation and the threat of more.—
(Cheers.) He haul been asked why did not the Govern-
ment put down Ribbonism ?—(llcar, hem. ) He had
been asked why he did not put down monster meetings?
To that he had answered that he had used the law in its
utmost force, and beyond iFs legitimate force he would
not exert it ; aed on the whole he must say, with full
c eifith nee and perfect sincerity, that no Minister of the
Crown could have felt more satisfaction in recommending
a measure to the British House of Commons than he felt
when he asked the House to assent to the third reading
of tl.e Bill.
,‘...11.E1L, who was greeted with very 100 cheering,
said that he had heard with infinite pleasure the speech
which had lust been pronounced, and every one upon his
(Mr. Shed's) side of the Henn lied heard it with
acknewledged pleasure. It was somethieg refreshing
and pleasant in those tines of angry polities to hear u
Censervetive Mini:stet. quote Hume, and Grattan, and
Burke, and make up his hand book from abstracts of
their speeches, teae!iing the British ileuse of Com-
mons Irish policy from the doctrines of Irish patriots.
The Right lion. Baronet adverted to the correspondence
ofEihnund Burke. But he would call the attention of
the House to the works of Edrnutni Burke, in which he
stated " that if that business was conducted as it ought
to be, and as it would be, they ought to expect more goed
from it than from anything which had passed in their
age." And to what was it he alluded ? He saw many gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House who considered
Edmund Burke as the greatest statesman of his
time. Those gentlemen were, however, strongly opposed to
the endowment of Maynooth, and they conceived that they
ought to blame the Minister by whom the measure had been
introduced. How surprised, then, ought they to be when,
they found that these words were used by Edmund Furke, in
reference to the Cellege of Maynooth ? They ware taken from
a letter from Edmund Burke to Dr. Hussey, who was after-
wards appointed a Roman Catholic Bishop. He was a man of
great talents and great accomplishments, and he was perfectly
aware of chat the Hon. Member for Newcastle advered to in
his reference to the criticisms of Cumberland, and he (Mr.
Shell) was sorry be did nut bring Cumberland down with
him. Dr. Hussey had been sent by the Duke of Portland to
Ireland at the instance of Edmund Burke; and it appeared by
this correspondence that the measure had originally been in-
troduced for the conciliation of Ireland, when the fidelity of
the Roman Catholics of Ireland was a subject of very
erroneous suimise, and when a Roman Catholic
in that House was sufficiently adventurous to warn
them-of their injustice, they were apt to mistake his firstadmo-
nition and to father that production upon the effect of his ire.
But when they came to look at that correspondence of the Ca-
tholic priest with a great Protestant statesman in all the secrecy
of confidential communication, they must feel that great atten-
tion should be paid to the fact. Edmund Burke, though a
Protestant, and educated in a Protestant University, was all his
life accustomed to the society of Roman Catholics, and was
perfectly acquainted with their feelings. He denounced the in-
fluence of the Penal Code upon the people of Ireland,
and had left his tracts, by which everything that had since
been written on the subject had been incalculably surpassed,
He was aware of the principles and feelings of the community.
and he had acted as a mediator between them and the British
Government. Two measures had been produced by the Bri-
tish Government for the coneilation of Ireland— one a relaxation
of the penal code, and the other for the conciliation of the
Church Establishmeat of Maynooth. The first was unfortu-
nately a bad one, and did not come into use, to the great dismay
of Edmund Burke. But the Government adhered to the
second one. He spoke of the establishment of Maynooth as
most important. He did nut look upon the amount of the grant
to Maynooth from great height that he took his view; his
sight was not even dieted to it, and he did not allude to it. The
Member for Newcastle adverted to the enterprise of. Theobald
Wolfe Tone, but for a purpose to which it ought not to be ap-
plied. His memoir were fraught with instruction. For several days
several French ships of the line, filled with troop, with 100,000
stand of arms, were anchored in a harbour in the south of
Ireland; from which Theobald Wolfe Tone said that he could
throw a biscuit on shore; and it was an extraordinary fact that,
in 18 years afterwards, the French Emperor put up his glass,
and turning his eyes to the borizen, thanked God in vain.
The rebellion of '9B succeeded, and it was put down, as every
rebellion would be put down. But by what course? HOW
altered here and hereafter may be the respect of any Govern-
ment which by the denial of justice, a fatal procrastination, or
by fatal indecision, would bring about such a terrible circum-
stance. They would ask him why he brought these things
forward merely for the purpose of showing what were the cir-
cumstances of Maynooth. The Catholic clergy were faithful
almost to a man. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Colquhoun)
might say that the history of the rebellion was open to him as
well as to him (Mr. Shed), and he might raise up his eyes to
heaven; but surely it was unnecessary for him after having
spoken two hours to have recourse to pantomime.—( A laugh.)
Let them go from 1793 to 1822, and they would find that the
Roman Catholic clergy did not take any part in political pro-
ceedings. Could they deny that? When did they take part
in political proceedings? Whet the Catholic Association was
formed it arose then, within its influence. It was
thin that the great saceniotal Association commenced.
The Honourable Member for Newcastle, be understood,
had adverted to Dr. Doyle, at the same t' me admitting his
great talents. But it was not with him (Dr. Doyle) that the
great ecclesiastical agitation in Ireland had commenced—it
was with the Hibernian Portuguese, the Augustinian Friars,
not with any clergyman edu ated in Ireland. Dr. Doyle pub-
lished a pamphlet of what they might call a very seditious cha-
racter-a-of a character with respect to which they would not
call upon him (Mr. Sheil) to pronounce any judgment. He
went so far as to say that if there was a French invasion, and
the First Lord if the Treasury was then at the head of the
Home-office, he (Dr. Doyle) -aid that in such a ease it should
net be the duty of the Roman Catholic clergy to join in repel-
ling the foe. That was an occasion on which Maynooth was to
be put to the test, and Maynooth published a declaration which
he (Mr. Shell) had with him. Let them hear what he
was now about to quote from that publication. It
was far better than any extracts from Tallacosius,
Cappadocius, and Thomas Aquinas. It was a protest
from Maynooth—a protest of the establishment from which
Gentlemen on the other side stated that sedition in Ire-
land flowed, and it was sent to every ei,trict in that country.
These were the words of the priests of Maynooth, who were
alleged to have taught ultra.montane doctrines. "The Roman
Catholic clergymen of St. Patrick's College of Maynooth, in
consequence of a recent publication in allusion to the domestic
education of the Catholic clergy, deem it a duty that they owe
to their religion solemnly to state that they wish to inculcate
allegiance to the Sovereign and respect to the authorities under
that Sovereign, and that they have been guided therein by the
tenets of the Catholic religion contained in the following pre-
cepts, &c." And then, continued the Hon. Gentleman, are
quoted several passages from the Scriptures, and several ex-
tracts from Tertullian, referring to the penalties to which
Roman Catholics were liable by non-allegiance. He could
not help thinking that the perusal of that document ought to
convince any honest antagonist as to the doctrines taught at
Maynooth.

Mr. COLQUHOUN wished to know whether Dr. Hig.
gins had signed that document?

Mr. SHEIL—AII the professors signed it. He had not got
their names, bat the professors of those doctrines, which they
had impeached, had given their signatures. Was not that suf-
ficient to show them that it was an authoritative account, and
to carry with it great importance. He said that it would con-
Time any such honest man as the Member for Newcastle.
They must recollect what the fortunes of the Catholic
student were.—( Hear, hear,) He returned to the people
from whence he came—he became an ecclesiastic—he was not
free from contagion, he caught and propagated it ; hut he
would assert, that in Maynooth no doctrines against the Eng-
lish interests were taught, and he defied them to prove any-
thing of the kind. That measure was received with gratitudo
in 1795—it had been received with gratitude in ls_4s. He as-
serted that the greakbody of the Catholic hierarchy gave their
unqualified approbation to this measure. The professors of
Maynooth had expressed their thanks to the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman ; and more than that, there had been no Protestant
demonstration in Ireland against the measure. He did not
regard the Right Honourable Gentleman the Recorder for
Dublin, or the Member for the University, as spokes-
men of the Protestants of Ireland. He asserted that
they were more solicitous for the peace of the country,
when the security of their country depended upon it.
The first thing the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department did-, was to ascertain the real feeling of the
Irish people. He had not been inattentive to the feelings of
the people of this country, but he had exhibited a noble con-
stancy. He had not given way to the clamour which had been
raised. Yet it was not that the Right Hon. Baronet was in-
sensible to public opinion, for he lute plainly shown this in
his conduct on the Factory Bill. But he was aware of the
difference between the unjust displeasure of English discon-
tent and the just displeasure of Irish discontent. He well knew
thit English discontent would only, at the worst,
affect the position of the Government in power,
while the justice of Irish discontent would shake
the solidity of the State. It was the Dissenters of the coun-
try who were the chief opposers of the grant. But it was
evident that the people were not averse to it, for where were
their county meetings—where were their great demonstrations
—where were the great expostulations of the great body of the
clergy? He was aware that the Dissenters had their special
purposes to serve, and he could well understand their policy.
—(Laughter.) He was extremely sorry to speak of the Dis-
senters as he did, and to assert that he had grounds for the
opinions which he gave. The policy of Ireland was not to be
regulated by the feelings of any part of the English public.
When they should think less of Popery, and more of church-
rates—when they should right themselves, and not attempt to
wrong the Catholics—then would he be the first to assist
them in obtaining relief from their grievances; and when
they sought for a Committee, he would be the first
to help them to a remedy.—( Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the Dissenters did not grudge them the 26,0001.
a year, but they opposed it because they thought that a part. of
the doctrines taught at Maynooth were in oppcsition to the prin-
ciples of the Christian religion. The Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham had entered into this part of the argument, and he
should notice it for a moment, because Christianity was alto-
gether founded on truth, and because truth was always one.
intent
of the charges of controversy were sure to fall upon the
excessive meanness of the expedients which had been resorted
to in order to excite public feeling, and to induce a false im-
ionftpnaartpniculelantriepaalisdaigseensssionrn. woHrdes.kneHwe
nw4shnnwot tgo o
ei going
rteossenttheer
at Maynooth. T
him a tract, which had been issued by the Wesleyan,. They
give a testimony as to the head
professed to
ius
im-
pression with res_pretHtoenth. emdeocntinresfetvauDgehrthiannit the
dC
handedass-boo
to
class-books of Maynooth. They cited
.Mendoznaa, Tallaco
tna, and etve,
mostr. She i ) h d
Cappadocius, Thomas Aquimas, Bellarmine, 111.
e
him information, and he found that only three of
com-
petent to give
number were used as class books at Maynooth, and
the whole ai
rt cssl aoYf utrotshe. who e jleir
that in these neither Bellarmine nor Mendoza were included.
The compiler of this publication had made extracts from the
mra!doethtehres
nsetsl itedci
diligent
class-books
inquiries
treatise of Baillin upon the keeping of oaths. This compiler
had stated that this authority declared that the superior of a
religious order had aright to absolve any of the members of the
establishment from their oaths. These were a•rong words,
but what did Baillin say, that " the superior of a
religious order had the power to absolve an inferior
from all those oaths which came within the power of
the superior as such." This was the qualification. Thus
they complain of Baillin.—( Cheers.) A copy of the tract had
been sent to him by the Hon. Member for Durham. The
tact had been extensively distributed to affect the minds of the