The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-22 00:00:00

ther be placed in the position of a private, independent Mem-
ber of that House, than hold office for one moment under the

servile tenure that some Hon. Members would seem to imply
he should submit to, or in the course he should adopt in the
advice he should deem it advisable to give to the Crown.—
(Loud cheers.) And without reference to this man or to that,
he would ever claim for himself, in whatever position he might
be placed, the right of the exercise of private judgment, or,
as the Minister of the Crown, to give such advice to
her Majesty as he deemed most conducive to the
best interests of this &eat empire. (Loud cheers.)
But he had been taunted with a total disregard of public
opinion. So far as the expression of that opinion was founded
upon religious considerations, he had the greatest possible re-
spect for it ; but taking the general aspect of that opinion into
account, he begged to say that, so far from being inclined by
it to waver, it determined him to persevere—(Loud cheers)—
and this he said without in the slightest degree assuming any
arrogant defiance of his political opponents ; but it was a
course he had been induced to hold by great political conside-
rations, and the opposition he had received only induced him
to adhere to it with steady perseverance. —( Cheers.) If
he thought the opposition to this measure was to be
successful, and to be regarded as a triumph, he
would despair of ever seeing anything like the establishment
of an amicable relation between Great Britain and Ireland

( Hear, hear, and cheers.) On these grounds, then, he would
say it was of the last importance that, in order to investigate
the evils of Ireland, the Government should not lightly abandon
the course they had taken, and, therefore, he would say that
. .

he, and those:who acted with him, were, now and foi ever,

irrevocably pledged to those measures.—(Cheers.) He was
convinced and satisfied as to the policy of the course he was
pursuing, and. therefore, he had persevered in it, notwith-
standing what had been said by Hon. Members as to th sfeel-
ings of the Roman Catholic clergy towards this country.

They proposed to endow Maynooth,—and he never heard any
objection to the grant on the part of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland. He found, on the part of the Roman Catholic
hierarchy—on the part of the professors of Alaynooth, and
on the part of the Roman Catholic priests generally, that
they were grateful in accepting this grant. He must alvo say
that it had produced by the expression of a kindly feeling that
effect which he expected it would produce. One Gentleman
had read a letter from Dr. Higgins ; another Gentleman read
a letter from Dr. M‘Hale ; and the Right Hon. Member for
Oxford read an extract from a French newspaper, to prove
that they were wrong in the course which they pursued.
But he ( Sir R. Peel) would have thought that a quotation
from a French newspaper would have been better applied in
showing that they were right in the course which they adopted.
—( hear, hear.) Who could have expected that the agitation
was at once to be subdued ? Unless they showed that a feeling
of gratitude ought to influence those who were affected by the
kindly disposition of the Government, they must expect agita-
tors to be dissatisfied. He did not think that an angry speech

made from week to week was to be held as an indication Of the

feeling of the people. They supposed that the Protestant feel-
ing of Ireland was represented in_ the north, and they

supposed that the Roman Catholic feeling was represented
by the Conciliation Hall. Nothing could be more erroneous.
There was an intermediate mass of Roman Catholics and Pro-

.estants who were not influenced by either of those. He

thoroughly believed that the course:pursued by her Majesty's
Government had greatly diminished the agitation, and had se-
cured—he would not say their confidence—in the Govern-
ment ; but he must say that it had diminished the desire of the
great body of the Roman Catholics of Ireland to connect them-
selves with turbulence and agitation. They could not expect
that the influence of such a measure was to be at once felt.

He thought that the Roman Catholic Gentlemen who sat in
that House were much fairer representatives of the Roman

Catholic feeling in Ireland than those authorities to whom
reference had been made—( Hear, hear)—and he thought
that those gentlemen had acted in perfect fairness in the sup-
port which they had given to the measure of her Majesty's
Government. Before he concluded, he must give expression

to his deep sense of the honourable and disinterested motives
by which the great body of those who were opposed to him in
political opinions had been actuated in that support. It would
be unbecoming in him to offer, and in them to receive, any
expression of his gratitude for the course they had taken.
He was sure that they had been influenced by a high sense
of public duty. He perfectly knew that in proposing and in
resolutely adhering to this measure what the consequences
would be, namely, to alienate from him Honourable
Gentlemen whom he highly respected. He had
no demand upon the gentlemen from whom he had met support,
but a continual support was hardly due from those who were
his continual and uniform supporters for a long series of years.
Yet prepared to act upon a deep sense of duty they were deter-
mined to incur any risk which might follow, and if the results
of their measures be not to conciliate the support of opponents
they would be to engender a kindly feeling between Ireland
and Great Britain, and would increase the chances of maintain-
ing a perfectly amicable connexion and relation between these
two parts of this great empire. —( Cheers. )
Lord .1. RUSSELL—Sir, as 1 have addressed the House
on former occasions upon this subject, there are but few ob-
servations which I wish now to offer to it. They are rather
observations referring to the part I have taken on this subject,
and to the present state of Ireland, than to the immediate con-
duct of the Government. I wish, in the first place, to address
a large body, who have not been much represented in this
House, whose sentiments I have heard very little of in the
course of these debates, but whose opinions I am accustomed
highly to value, and who I am sure have come to their conclu-
sions from conscientious convictions ; I allude to the large body
of the Protestant Dissenters of England. I find that they, dif-
fering very much from many who oppose this measure on the
other side of the House, say that they are quite ready to do
justice to Ireland, but that that justice ought to be-done in
another manner.—( Hear, hear.) They say, " Grant every
franchise which Ireland can claim to :put her on
an equality with England, but do not do any fa-
vour to Romanism ; if the Established Church be
objected to, reduce the power of that Church, but
do not give that power into the hands of the Roman
Catholics." Now, I am not going to dispute as to
the preference of one over the other. For my own part, the
view which I took of the state of Ireland many years ago was
rather in accordance with their view than with the tendency
of the measure now before the House ; but in proposing our
measures we met with opposition so strong, not only in this
and the other House, but likewise (I must admit) in the
country, that many of those measures were retarded for years;
and with respect to one of the principal—proposing to reduce
the revenues of the Established Church of Ireland—we entirely
failed, and were obliged to propose a Tithe Bill without that
proposition.—(Hear, hear.) If we had taken the course re-
commended by the gentlemen to whom I now refer, let them
consider what would have been the result. We should have
been successful, I have no doubt, if we had joined the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, in defeating this measure on its first in-
troduction, or on the second reading; but should we have ob-
tained that which the parties referred to say is required by
justice to Ireland ? Should we have obtained measures for
the reduction of the present Church Establishment in Ire-
land ? Would those who should urge such a measure then
have been aided by those who assist them in opposing
the grant to Maynooth? It is evident, not only by what
passed four years ago, but by what has passed this year, by
what has passed on the motion of the Hon. Member for Shef-
field (Mr. Ward), that we should have been utterly defeated
in that attempt, and that while the Maynooth grant would have
been lost, we should have been entirely unable to carry any
measure tending to remedy the inequality existing in Ireland.
—(Cheers.) Why, then, what was my duty ? Seeing that
I could not carry the measure which 1 thought the best and
most favourable to the freedom of Ireland, when I saw any
measure of a different kind, proposing not to reduce the Pro-
testant Church, but to elevate the Catholic Church, and thereby
to produce something nearer equality—was it not my duty, if
I wished for the welfare of Ireland, to give my best support
to that measure, from whatever Ministry it might come, and
whatever might be the tendency of my vote with respect to
the party who might remain in power ?—(Loud cheers.) But
I cannot refer to this subject without taking some no-
tice of a speech made in this House by the Noble Lord the
Member for South Staffordshire (Lord Ingestre), who said
very plainly—and I give him credit for his frankness—that
although this was not the measure against which he voted in
opposing the appropriation clause—although it takes nothing
from th Protestant Church of Ireland, yet if this measure
(which he will now support) had been proposed by the late
Government, he would have voted against it.—(Cheers.) 1
am one of those who will stand up for the advantages of party.
I think party spirit a most useful thing, that it tends to make
men zealous on behalf of great principles, and to bring them
into fellowship for great purposes, and has enabled men, by
bringing their different talents and capacities into one concen-
trated effort, to carry most excellent measures, which would
otherwise have failed—(Hear)—but yet party has disadvan-
tages belonging to it ; it very often inspires a blindness and a
bitterness in those who belong to party ; and while the Noble
Lord is an instance of all the advantages which are to be de-
rived from party—( Cheers) —I think he is a proof also of its
disadvantages.—(Renewed cheers.) But this is not the first
instance. I remember some years ago, what I thought a
most remarkable and most melancholy case of party beat, at
a dinner in Staffordshire, one of those assemblies which then
met for the purpose of abusing the Government of the day,
when the murder of Lord Norbury was made an instrument of
party warfare, and its announcement was received with cheers,
as if it was the means of attacking the Government for being
wanting in the energy with which justice ought to have been
administered in Ireland. Sir, lam happy that I belong to a
party which does not use such weapons.—(Loud cheers. )
But the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) has alluded to
the present state of the Government and of Ireland. The
Right Hon. Baronet has said, that such was the state of Ire-
land in 1843 that the ordinary resource of law, which must be
executed by trial by jury, would not be an efficient instrument
for the purposes of the Government of Ireland. That, I have
no doubt, was a true confession ; but, at the same time, it is a
very sad, I might say a humiliating, confession, for any Go-
vernment to make.—(Cheers.) It shows a disposition in the
people of that country not to convict even in cases where it is
to be supposed that the law is in favour of the Executive Go-
vernment ; it shows a disposition such as has not existed in
this country, I believe (with the exception solely of the years
1794 and 1795), since the Revolution of 1688 ' • it shows an
alienation of the people of Ireland from the whole system of
your Government.—( Hear.) I hope that disease may
cured, that we may now be on our way to
better times ; but there must be other measures—( Cheers)
—recourse must be had to a further policy—l don't know that
I should say of conciliation—l don't want to use the word—
but of justice towards Ireland. Nor must we any more hear
that old cry of " Ott, how ungrateful the Irish are?
--(Cheers.) We give this grant to Maynooth, and yet
they are not thankful." This has been the continual parrot
cry ever since you first relinquished the atrocious penal laws.
You said, " Only think of these Catholics—we have allowed
them to educate their own children, and yet they are net grate-
ful. We have allowed them to have priests of their own chil-
dren, without fining, transporting, or imprisoning them, and
yet they are riot grateful. We have permitted them to ride
horses, which may be of the value of 1501., and yet they are
not grateful for the indulgence. We have allowed them to go
to mass, and yet they are not grateful. We have allowed them
even to inherit landed property, and yet this barbarous and
savage nation will not be grateful—they still ask for other
things." To be sure, Sir, they ask for other things, and
they will ask for other things—(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Sheil)—uiitil with respect to England and Ireland there
is a perfect and just equality.—(Loud cheers.) And
then when you can say that there is perfect arid
just equality I shall fear nothing from this cry for
a repeal of the union, formidable and powerful as it is,
among great masses of the people of Ireland at the present
moment.—(Cheers.) I think we should then bring the ad-
vocates of repeal to fair argument on that question. I wooli',
put before them an assembly meeting in Dublin, with an Irish
House of Lords, such as the Irish House of Lords 'would be
then constituted—a democratic assembly in Ireland, first par-
!Piling with that House of Lords, and breaking it to pieces, as
they would naturally do—next inflicting fines on absentees—
next quarrelling with the English, because the manufactures of
England were sent to Ireland, and endeavouring to get up
manufactures of their own, in a spirit of jealous manufacturing
rivalry—then proceeding in a spirit of enmity towards those
who hold property in Ireland who did not agree with the majo-
rity ; and in that manner forcing on, before a very long time,
a quarrel with this country. Then would be a quarrel not for
repeal—not for having two Legislatures—but a quarrel as
to whether England and Ireland should be united under the
same crown. The independence of Ireland might turn out
to be the dream of some young enthusiatic, and I will not
deny some patriotic, men in Ireland, but the idea of Ire-
land existing as an independent country would be found
the shallowest dream that ever occupied a fantastic brain.—
(Cheers.) It would be found that the enemies of England
would make Ireland the battle-field with foreign countries.