The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-29 00:00:00

conciliation of Ireland. Ha was ready to do justice to Ireland
Without doing an Injustice to the English Dissenters. He
thought that the Roman Catholics were in a peculiar position,
and stood in a different relation to the Established Church
from the Dissenter.—( Hear, hear.) The Dissenters had no
fair claim to the Church property ; but, with regard to the Ro-
man Catholics, they must bear in mind that they were 7-Sths
of the population—that they had been despoiled of their
ecclesiastical revenues, and that they were compelled to sup-
Dort a Church,from which they derived not the least advantage.
Though he wished to see the present measure, and more, accom-
plished for Ireland, he wished to see it accomplished by proper
means.—( Hear, hear.) As long as he had had a seat in that
House he voted for every measure which tended to conciliate or
ameliorate the state of the people of Ireland. He did nut think
there was any very great difference between a grant of 9,0001.
which existed for fifty years, and the present grant. But when
he heard the Noble Lord the Member for London say that this
was not merely a grant for the support of education in May-
nooth, but that it involved a great principle, and was the pre-
cursor of other measures, he was led to reflect
where that principle would lead him, and to ask
whether he would vote to support the establishment
of another religion out of the public ;funds. But he (Mr.
Brotherton) would be no party to that bigotry and intolerance,
and " No Popery" cry out of doors, of which he entirely dis-
approved.--( Hear.) He looked upon those things with a dif-
ferent eye from that which the parties themselves viewed each
other. He looked upon the Roman Catholics and their op-
ponents as one great Christian family, all cif them having the
same object in view. He voted for the appropriation clause,
and he thought the friends of the Established Church in Ire-
land might be made to do all that was required. Were they
now about to endow priests out of the Consolidated Fund
when they had abundant resources from the surplus funds of
the Church Establishment in Ireland, he should be most
happy to give his support to any measure which
would have the effect of producing so much good,
and which would tend to promote union between
two countries. Happiness and prosperity might be advanced by
the Ministry altering their resolution according to the motion of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield. He could not bring his mind
to support a motion for a grant out of the Consolidated Fund,
which might be the precursor of measures for the entire en-
dowment of the Irish clergy out of the same fund.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said that the Hon. Gentleman
( Mr. Law )gave notice that he would ask the House not to grant
the money out of the Consolidated Fund, but instead of that
he had submitted to the House the propriety of considering
whether the resolution of the Government should not be taken
into consideration that day six months. That was the first
time that he rose to discharge a duty which presented
to his mind nothing but unmingled pain, as he
was about to vote not only against a very large and
extensive body of his fellow-countrymen and against
a sincere, conscientious, and patriotic excitement which
now laid on the table of the House so many petitions;
but he was about to vote against those to whom he owed the
deepest gratitude and the most profound respect. He had no
personal object for supporting this measure, and, notwithstand-
ing the smallness of pecuniary extent that the motion covered,
he believed it was the basis of a new era of prosperity, because
it was the beginning of an union between Ireland and England,
from which would spring the best events both for one country
and the other. He was aware that great popular feeling had
been excited. He had indeed heard that a celebrated preacher
at Cheltenham had met an elderly lady on his return from
chapel, who had asked him whether they were going to build
the College of Maynooth at Cheltenham, or whether it was
intended thet the Pope should take up his residence there, and
be supported by the Government. Now, he had no affiliation
with the Pope ; and though he did not agree with the
elderly lady, yet he at the same time thought that it was neees-
sary that there should be the consent of the country to a grant
like this, and he thought that the consent of the country as well
as of the Government ought to be obtained to a grant of this
nature. They had consented to the support of the religion of
the country in India ; they had consented to endow the Church
of the country in India. They had consented to endow the
Roman Catholic Church in Canada and Malta ; in India ; in
Trinidad ; in the east ; in the west; in the north ; and in the
south ; and he thought it was but talking about terms to speak
of the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland.
The Roman Catholic Church, so far as he conceived, fulfilled
all its offices ; and he knew not why so much question should
be made about the endowment of a Church against, whose
principles there was but a feeble opposition, and in favour of
whose policy they had the results of experience. The object of
this grant was to increase the religious education of the people
of Ireland. He repudiated altogether the notion that this
would interfere with the religious education of the
people of Ireland. He cared not for the question, for
the difference between the Government, and the
Roman Catholics of Ireland. He would n)t treat this as a
matter between the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and the
Protestants of England ; he would not consider it as a ques-
tion between the Government and Mr. O'Connell ; but he
would consider it as a matter between the Catholic priests of
Ireland and the people of this country. This was not his
object. The Reformation could not properly be traced to the
reign of Henry VIII., but to the time of Wicliffe ; and he
conceived that the established religion was not to be ascribed
to the alteration which had been made three centuries ago,
nor did he ground his opposition to this measure on any poli-
tical grounds.—( Laughter.) He thought that any differ.
enee that might exist was to be ascribed rather to the spirit
of whisky, than to the: spirit of religious feeling, and while
he expressed these feelings, he might at the same time
say that his only consideration was that which had reference
to the feelings of the people of Ireland. It was not the
paltry grant of 26,0001. a year which was made to the people
of Ireland that entered into his consideration. He would tell
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment, that if he made a concession to this extent, he must eon-
ceive that it would not thus stop He would not refer to the
case of America which had been adduced. He would not ad-
duce
the agitation which had been excited on this question—
he would look on the result of that agitation as a fait accompli,
and conceived that it would be better in no way to bring that
agitation into this debate. He had put his thoughts hurriedly
together—(Laughter)—and had he had mere time he might
have made his speech shorter than he otherwise would have
done He had intended to make his opposition on the second
reading, but had thought it better to reserve it to this position
of the question, and give his adhesion to the motion, that the
motion be read that day six months.
Mr. FOX MAULS rose and said, that after troubling the
House at some length on a former occasion, it was with some
regret that he rose at that hour, but he thought it right to
notice some personal allusions to the conduct which he hail
thought right to follow with reference to his vote on that
question. The Hon. Friend he meant had thought it right to
attack him for having attended a public meeting on that sub-
ject, and he had endeavoured to make him responsible for lan-
guage spoken at that pubiic meeting, and for resolutions agreed
to there. He (Mr. Fox Maule) raid not hold that parties pre-
sent, or even presiding at a public meeting, had a right to be
held responsible for all that might be said in the heat of argu-
ment or in debate on a question of such prominent importance
and of such great public interest ; because it
was only on such occasions that individuals could
give expression to their feelings on this question,
and it was but excusable that strong language should be al-
lowed them. Was he to be responsible for the language held
there, any more than he should be hell responsible for the lan-
guage used by Hon. Members in that House ? Was he to be
held responsible for the resolutions passed there, any more
than for the resolutions brought before that House or the no-
tices of motion which might appear upon the paper? No ; he
could not be held responsible for that language or those results-
tions, but he would tell the Hon. Member for Sheffield, that
if ise were to put down those meetings, he would be doing a
great public injury, inasmuch as those meetings had their rise
in public opinion. At those places the expression of public
opinion found a vent, however strong the language was in which
the public expressed that opinion, he thought it better
fur the [louse at once to know and hear it. Having said these
few words with reference to that point, he would now pro-
ceed to notice some of the arguments which had beers used
on the measure before the House, because in discussing the
measure at present, and in voting for the motion of the Hon.
and Learned Recorder for London, he confessed at once that
he voted for that motion with the simple view of putting a
stop to the Government measure. The Right Hon. Barone
at the head of the Government had stated that Hon. Members
in that House had alr,ady assented to the general principle of
endowments in passing the annual grant to the College of
Maynooth, but he (Mr. Fox Maule) was very certain that
those who consented to the measure containing the clause
which enabled the parties to endow such an institution in
voluntary principle, would think it very hard if, by giving their
vote, they were to be supposed pledged to the general princi-
ple of endowments. The endowment of a seminary established
solely for the education of the Irish priesthood, and what was
in his opinion a still more lamentable termination, the perpe-
tual endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy.—( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord on this side of the House looked forward to
that event with the mast sanguine expectations—(Hear)—
and
the Right Hon. Baronet on the other side did not deny
that such an event might happen.—(Cheers. ) But the grant
was to be taken from the Consolidated Fund of the
country. That fund was raised from the taxes paid
by the people of this country. Now, he had
heard an Honourable Member, in the course of that
debate, term this a paltry sum not worth contending for.
They had sufficient evidence of the generosity of the British
public, in granting the enormous amount derived from the
income-tax. They represented to the public that such a tax
was necessary for the purpose of meeting the exigencies of the
State, and of placing this country in the proud position which
it had in former times maintained. The British public came
forward with a generosity that surprised him (Mr. Fox
Maule), and had no doubt surprised the Right Hon. Baronet
also ; for they had scarcely given any opposition to his measure
Was such a generous public likely to quarrel with this sum of
26,0001., because of Ilse munificence of the grant ? No—it
was upon principle that they opposed it.—(Elear. ) They
quarrelled with this endowment because it was to be carried
out at their expense, and in violation of their conscientious
feelings on the subject.—(Cheers. ) It had been said that the
"No Popery " cry had been raised a :ainst this measure. He
(Mr. Fox Maule) did not know what was meant by that.
word.—( Hear, hear, and great laughter.) Did it mean the
same thing that the " No Popery " cry of 129 did ? ( Hear,
hear.) He might say it did not, for that cry had been raised
against the possession by Roman Catholics of the civil liberties
which Protestants then enjoyed. The opponents of that
measure of justice said, that if they took off the dis-
abilities which affected Roman Catholics, individuals
of that persuasion would sit in Parliament and have power
to intermeddle with the laws by which they themselves were
governed. Then was raised the cry that by such a course
they invaded the Constitution of the country—the No Popery
cry was then directed against Roman Cathol es, to pre-
vent their enjoying the privileges to which they were justly
entitled, and the possession of which could mot possibly injure
the Protestant religion of the country.—( Hear, hear.) But
the case was very different here. They proposed to do more
now for the Roman Catholics of Ireland than they did then.
Instead of merely granting them civil liberties, they now pro-
posed
f to endow the Roman Catholic seminaries. They pro-
posed to remove them from the supervision of the State, and they
were thus establishing a principle which would, in his opinion,
lead to the final endowment of the Roman Catholic Church
itself.—(Cheers.) Surely these men had a right to express
subjected crt•eodn conscientious etnhtei ooudsi
n opinions o
f tthis
suctireyn—that
this,sub subject t.s h_eew withoutoolti bteeirnng,
it, very bad cry of •! No Popery." It was. tnetthen
writgiohtacnteotri
just to raise that objectionable termratgatrns m
they buth
cnoomtplcaoinmelidaotfnthaotf
"No Popery " cry now, es
cry was raised
solely en conscientious grounds.l,
against Lord Melbourne's Government in 1837, 1838, 1839,
in all its
and so forward raised, he would say,
it at other times ?—( Hear, hear.) That
in Ireland, they were
ntidonfsom
whom did this ors
original purity.—( Laughter.) If that Government spoke of
dealing with the municipal corpora
met by the ‘f No Popery" cry.
(tit Tories)
They e
proceed ? From the very partyA of 'Which the Right Hon.
Baronet was a member and the leader. T
never tried to put down this cry. They made all the use of it
they amid then, and now when they found something similar ramst thereselvee they were the very first to complain of il
wa,7sdisottntePariced thisproceeding.—(
Hear, hear.) He (Mr.he Right lion. Barohet opposite had ;stated that he had a -
Fox Maule) would say, !bat when he heard the
pry made use of against the Government to which he himself
belonged, he had heard po disclaimer from the Right. Hon.
Honourable Baronet ; whtin he beard flap ether
Baronet, the Househ
day that the Right Hon. Baronet in his retirement into Op-
ppsitien gave coqntenance to the No Popery cr‘y‘ ,Nhoeloopuegryht
tion of the course whicdh
that after the statements
ah
he
ta
(t
get
bhl yte madeßight
g o
ebilya6
nt h.
public the
Baronet)
ri
og
nhe
etv Hi a
11114.,
taken oa that wasion. At a meetin§ in Qlasiow too