The Sun.
London, England, 1819-06-03 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES.

The House having resolved itself in a Com•
mittee of Supply, on the motion of Mr. LUSH•

INGTON.

Sir G. WARRENDBR stated, that in proposing
the Navy Estimates, he should not enter into any
long details. The Committee of Finance had dis-
cussed every item so minutely, that his task would
be reduced to a mere mention of the stints wanted.
He should, at the same time, keep himself in
readiness to answer any questiou which might be
asked, or any observation which might be start-
ed. lie sbo.i:ri only add, that the reductions in
the Navy had never been carried to a greater ex-
tent than they were by the present Estimates.
He then moved, that a sum not exceeding
2,433,0131. 12s. id. be granted to his Majesty
for the ordinary establishment of the Navy in

1819.
Mr. CALCRAFT complained of the recommenda-
tion of thQ Finance Committee to put down the
Naval Asylum, whilst the Military Asylum was
allowed to subsist, and even to pass unnoticed.
fle feared that the suggestion had been adopted
by his Majesty's Ministers, for when the Navy
was concerned they were economical enough. If
there were any Estimates, the amount of which
be felt disposed to increase, it was those for the
Navy. He did not consider the number of men
voted for that service sufficient. It was in ull
20,000 ; but of these only 14,000 were sailors.
The rest were marines. In former times the
votes for the two services bad been co-extensive.
But at present all proportions were disregarded,
and we bad an airily of 100.000 men, with a navy
of only 20,000 ! He wished to know whether it
was determined to adopt a new system altogether,
and to abandon what usedAO be called the
Wooden Walls of Old Englia." lie reprov-
ed the contiartance of the Lay Lords of the Ad-.
miralty at time when it was neceesar.r to di-
minish the brirthens of the people. He could not
conceive that the House would•vote any new tax
till sufficient reductions bad been made in the
public expenditure; and he should never• agree to
grant one shilling till that enormous sum of
11,000,0001. at the head of the Finance account,
11.. d been thoroughly sifted. Much economy
might take place in the collection of the Re-
'Mlle. lie untler3tuod that the Board of Excise

proposed to Govc:nment to culicct the C 419-
toms at a very reduced rate. The Excise Duties
were now collected at the rate of 51. las. 6:1. per
cent., and those of the Customs at that of 11l
19s. sd. per cent. A saving to the amount of
nearly one-half would therefore be effected if the
proposal of the Excise was accepted. But in Ire-
land k was still worse. The Customs were now
collected in that country at the enormous rate of
211 183. per cent. He trusted that those mat-
ters would be duly investigated, and that the ,ea.y
and immense saving thus held forth would not he
lost to the country. To the present grant he
should not object, any more than to the Esti-
mates themselves.

Sir G. WARRENDER explained, that far from
having put down the Naval Asylum, the Resolit
tion note in the Cloth roan's hands included a sum
of 14,0001. for that establishment. 'rhe Com-
mittee of Finance had, it was true, recommended
its abolition, and Ministers might take into future
consideration the proptiety of diminishing its ex-
pence ; but it was their intention to maintain the
establishment itself. The Hon. Gentleman had
complained that a larger naval force had not been
proposed, but the present was considered fully
equal to the wants of the country. Let it not be
imagined that our naval establishment was in a
state of decay. It was placed on such a footing,
that whenever the occasion might require, our
navy could be immediately restored to a state of
vigour and activity. A naval armament could al-
ways be brought forward with more rapidity than
a military one. It must also be considered that
the fleets of all other nations had been annihila•ed
during the course of the late war. Less, there-
fore, was required 00 our part. But he repeated
that the British nAvy had never been in such a
state, to be immediately restored to all its power
and efficiency, as at present. In the condition of
our finances, could any thing more be required ?
Sir M. \V. RIDLEY agreed, that it money ought
to he voted for any establishment, it should be for
the Naval Asylum. roen had double the sum
been proposed, it should have hail his support.--
When he saw an expenditure of 39,0001. for the
Military Asylum passed over without any observa-
int' from the Committee of Finance, he could not

help charging that Committee with a great fault
in having recommended the abolition of the Naval
Asylum. lle agreed with the suggestion that the
State should not educate more sailors than were
necessity for our own service ; but it was ridicu-
lous to apprehend that the knowledge of French
would inspire them with a disposition to abandon
our set vice. As long as he should find tiro or
three useless offices, even in the present estimates,
he should not consent to vote one shilling in ad-
dition to the public hurthens. He then com-
plained of the Lay Lords of the Admiralty, and
contended, that the Navy Board had not attended
to the recommendation of the Committee, that no
vacancies should be filled up. He concluded by
moving, That 200,0001. should be deducted from
the grant proposed.
Lord CoairToN objected to the Amendment
now brought forward on a subject which bad al-
ready been so lolly discussed, because it might ap-
pear in a party light, and for the purpose of em-
barrassing the measures of Government. He
should therefore decline giving it his support.—
He admitted, at the same time, that the public
had an undoubted right to demand every possible
retrenchment from his Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. S. DOUGLAS rejoiced that the forms of the
House allowed Parliament to reconsider a vote
formerly given, and obtained by surprise, in con-
' sequence of a declaration made by a gallant Ad-
miral, that the services of the Lay Lords of the
Admiralty were absolutely necessary. In conse-
quence of the Report of the Bank Committee,
the House had agreed to make a proper alteration
in the system of our currency. It bore the most
promising appearance, but all agreed that it must
be accompanied with a kind of tax on the coun-
try, and a considerable degree of difficulty and
pressure. It was also 'known, that in order to
' carry this alteration Ito() effect, the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite would propose new taxes at
the beginning of the next week, and amongst the
rest (tor the public were much misled on the sub-
ject), one which the Right Honourable Gentle-
man had himself voluntarily abandoned as con-
trary to the welfare of the country. In such cir-
cumstance', it was a most important right, that
which enabled the House to reconsider every pos-
sible retrenchment. The case of the Lay Lords
of the Admiralty, though comparatively trifling,
should not be omitted. In proportion as the
expences of the late war had exceeded those
of all former contests, ought the retrench-
ments of the present peace exceed all former
retrenchments. He was aware, at the same
time, that it was impossible to effect such re-
ductions as would materially diminish the bur-
thens of the people. All that could be done was
to teach it to bear them with patience, and that
could not be accomplished without showing every
disposition to curtail the public expenditure. lie
should ask the gallant Admiral opposite, on his
seputation in his profession and in society, to
come forward and state whether the presence of
the Lay Lords of the Admiralty was really neces-
sary to the public service. Could that be ima-
gined, when it was known that one of the lion.
Baronets who filled those situations had last year
spent five months in Bedfordshire, and the other
as long a portion of time in Edinburgh ? It was
said that their continuance was sa\tctioned by the
Finance Committee. He hoped those Commit-
tees had been sufficiently damned in the public
opinion to have lost all their influence. But that
would certainly be the case, when it was seen
that they suffered the Lay Lords to remain, and
recommended the abolition of the Naval Asylum;
not because that establishment was useless or too
expensive, but because the country was in such a
state of exhaustion, as not to be deemed capable of
❑iaintainingg the helpless orphans bequeated to her
charity and her gratitude by her defenders ! lie
and his friends had been accused of calling for
paltry savings ; but what were their propositions
in comparison of the recommendation of that
packed Committee ? The Opposition objected to
granting 10,0001. a-year to the Duke of York,
and 5,0001. to the Lay Lords of the Admiralty ;
and why ? Because it wished to apply those
sums to the support of establishments like. the
Naval Asylum. For what purvose should we

keel; cur navy To tight the armies of the
Continent. When he was told that we must
maintain H krgc standing army because other
natiuns maintained them. he recognized one of
those maxims issuing front the Continental schools,
and brought by the Noble Lnrd.at the head of the
Foreign Department to degrade our policy.
Sir G. CoLBURN COtild not admit the, fairmits* of
calling upon him as a private and public charac-
ter, to state whether the services of this or that
individual were of any value, Ile had no objec-
tion, however, to stake his reputation as a public
and private titan, on the declaration that he did be-
lieve it •absolutely necessary for the public service
that the Board of the Admiralty should be constitut-
ed as it now was. Ile was positively of opinion,

that if the Board were reduced, the public service
would be injured. With respect to what had
been said concerning a pretended preference in
favour of the military, it ought not to be for-
gotten, that solders, when discharged, had no
employment whatever; sailors, on the contrary,
immediately entered into the merchant service.—
As a proof of this, the Admiralty had much ((A-
cuity in procuring the number of sailors tequisite
to man the ships kept on active service. Daring
the war, the merchant vessels had been worked by
foreigners, who had now been discharged, and
British seamen employed in their stead.
Mr. F. DOUGLAS had not inquired whether the
Navy Board, as at present constituted, was useful
to the public service, but whether the gallant
Admiral could state that the two Lay Lords were
absolutely necei.sary ?—To this inquiry the gallant
Ptdmiral had in fact made no reply.

The Committee then divided--
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority against the Amendment ----q7
The original HA:solution was then put and
agreed to, _

Sir G. WAattENnER then moved, that a sum
not exceeding 1,631,6281. be granted to his M
jesty for building and repairing ships of war in
his Majesty's and Merchants' Yards, over and
above what was proposed to be done under the
head of wear and tear for the present year.
Mr. Llomit objected to the proposed sum of
55,0001. for ..volks at Bermudas, Jamaica, and
Trincomalee, on the grounds that no estimates

had been laid before—the Committee. He also
%visited to know whether the sum of 40801. fot
the Board of Longitude teas a new vote, and in-
tended to be annual. He concurred with the re-
commendation of the Committee, that the Naval
Asylum should be abolished, though he should
have thought th►e Military Asylum should have
been the first to experience that fate. He hoped,
that now the country was about to return to cash
payments, that all salaries would be reduced and
allowances to what they were in 1797, before the
Restrictions had taken place. If that were done,
no new taxes would be necessary. In a short
time he should move for a comparative statement

of public salaries in 1797, and in the present
times, and should-propose that the deduction be
made quarterly. He concluded by moving, that
the sum of 55,0001. for works at Bermudas, &c.
be left out of the proposed grant.
Mr. CRoKER explained, that the works in ques-
tion were not new ones, but had been in pro.
gross many years. If a certain Estimate of the
ex pence bad not been laid before the Committee,
it was because the necessity of pushing hen to a
particular extent must depend on our political re-
lations. Ile should regret the omission of this
sum, as no works were more important than those
carrying on at Bermudas. The Hon. Gerd wan
must have the goodness to confide a little in his
Majesty's Ministers, and to believe that they would
not go beyond the necessities of the case. If he
looked into the Estimates for former years, he
would find that larger sums had been demanded

for the same purpose. The 40001. to the Board
of Longitude Were an old and an 'annual vote,
and he believed no money could he better applied.
The Hon. Gentleman talk.d Ye y lightly Qif abo-
lishing fhe Naval Asylum ; but he did not know
that it had been establiShed by private charity,
whose contributions amounted to 100,00 W., The
pubilc had taken the charity, and also the
100,0001. The establishment could not there-
fore he abolished without a breach of good faith
and honesty.
The Amendment was then negatived, and the
original Resolution agreed to without a division.
Sir G. WARRENDIM then proposed a sum of
419,3191 for troops and garrisons on foreign

stations, and for extra wearand tear.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY, on comparing the present
with former Estimates, found that 54,0001. were
demanded for the Yard at Deptford, whilst the
original EStimate last year was only 34,0001. On
the Estimate for Woolwich there was also an in-
crease of 12,0001. i and on that for Chatham of
5,5001. But the most important of all was for
the works of Sheerness. The original Estimate
in 1818 was 433,8001., of which 170,0001. had
been granted ; 553,8001. were now demanded, so
that the whole would amount to 733,8001. These
things required explanation.

Mr. CHOKER stated, that the increase in the esti-
mate for Deptford was in consequence of the ne-
cessity which had arisen to rebuild instead of
patching up the old walls which were 100 years
old. As to Sheerness, it would have been impos-
sible, without an actual oculi inspecta, to form a
correct opinion of the expellee required. The ex•
CC39 was produced by the difficulty of working in
strong chalk grounds, which the French calltel
trovaillees. With respect to the increase iu ihe
charge for Woolwich, it arose from the necessity
of changing the line of the Wharf walls. Twenty-
five thousand pounds a year had sometimes been
voted to remove the mud from the Woolwich
yard : but by altering a little the course of the
river, and removing the mod with machines, the
,bed of the river had already been deepeurd, and
much future expellee would be saved.
The Resolution, having then been agreed to,
Sir G. WAHRENDER moved, that 76,1,321/. be
granted for the Transport Service in 1319..
Sir M. W. Rumev urged the claims of those
Clerks who, having passed through their exami-
nation, and acted for years in the capacity of
parsere, were tillable to audio that rank, and the
ball-pay which it conferred, in consequence of an
Order in Council. lie thought that an applica-
lion to the Prince Regent might procure a re-
; Bli*Sl43/1 of that order iu Ebel: Lc:Leif. He trusted

their service; not be dis'Ci-4,ardcd by
Howe ;in i it no one undertook the task, e`'
pressed his intention of propusiog, at stithe fount;
opportunity, an Address to the Prince Regent ott
the subject.
Sir G. COLBURN stated, !hal with regard to at
Navy rut sers, it tcgulalioll pr,)gt tVbiCII
would place them on the same fottilsg as wile;
Officers.

Mr. CHOKER regretted extremely that due to-
tention to economy shookd not allow the services
of the individuals to tvhffin the lion. Baronet had
alluded to be properly rewarded. Their case,
however, was not clearly understood. By fortner
regulations, the number of nut sers in the oasl
was limited to the number of ships of war. 11: a
ship were lookers up, no purser could he made
until a new vessel hail been built. As malty ships
had been broken up during the war, and it would
have beets hard for individuals to be deerived vt
their support, they were entered, out of charity,
on the cheek of the yhrd, and received about 15s1!
day. 'riots as many pursers had been ere aril
as vessels had been broken up. This system hall
afterwards been abolished, and they 1)4(1 beets
placed on half•pay ; receiving, at the lowest, R 9
much as an Ensign on half-pay in the army, ati,l
at the highest, as much as a Lieutenant its the
seine sittovion in the navy. This regulation bail
been adopted on the express condition that the
old system should be restored as soon as possible,
and that no more pursers should be made until
their number shortie have ceased to exceed the
number of ships in the service. This was the
groond on-which it was impossihle to accede t"
the claims of the -clerks whom the Hun. Baronet
had t»entioned, to be reised_ to the rank of pa"
secs and placed on half-pay.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATE'S.
Mr. R. Warm briefly stated that charges which
appeared in the Ordnance Estimate-3 of the Inc"
sent year as compared with theise of the last, bill
his ohAervations were almost wholly inaudible
the gallery. The retrenchment on acetonic of 511"
perannuation alloWences amounted to abet!‘
:eO,OOO/. There was a redaction of 15`_'4
fleets, artillerymen, and drivers, the istrinbcrs
having been in the last year 9759, and being 8c
present but 7935. The total expence of the Ora:
fiance was now brought down to about 1,100,000"
from 3,400,0001. which it had 1111101111ted to der,o4
the war. He moved for a grant of 386,252/•
full discharge of the Ordnance for the Laud 6c"
vice for 1819.
Mr. HOME complained of the charge create``
by the establishments for manntacttoine pity'
powder. Private manufacturers would al Atays
tae
tound competent to provide an atlrtluate stiff I)r
On any particular emergency, and he therefore
jetted (*1 the establishments he had alluded u 7
bt lug kept up its time of peace. lie observc'd '•
charge of ten thousand five hOndred portal
for the Powder Mills at Waltham Abbey I.o'`
Feversham. The sobject appeared to hint
merit the most serious consideration of tl
House. lie wished now to ask the lion. Gel3l
tleman in what way the vacancies in the Steil
the Artillery were to be filled up. lie had
that some arragement had been made by Gover'r,
tent and the Plaster-General of the Ordnance;
by which the vacancies in future were to be 11';,`:'
up by Cadets from /Woolwich and hall-pav
tl
cers. Whoever had originated this plan weri`ee
his best thanks : he Loped that it would
hioogbt into general use, and that it would event:
wally operate a mate, ial reduction of the half.rn
list, lit these estimates lie observed a number,'
novel items, to which he would call the (41"11:1
!ion of the House. It hail been recommend'
by the Finance Committee, that the newly-actri:
ed Colonies should be made to hear their essi;
expellees. This was suggested with reference
Ceylon, the Cape of Good Hope, the Maurill
and the lonian Islands, but these he saw crea(4,
a charge of upwa7ds of 26,0001.: he would
Irons what he knew of them, that they outfit be
maintain themselves, and cause a saving I(.'
country of half a million, instead of an addition
t xpeoce.
Mr. It. Wan') contended, that in various pol
of view it was of importance to keep up the P`,
sent establishments (or manufacturing gool'°'l.,
der. lie especially insisted on this from the Pce,
fection which bad been attained in the 141211111`Ley
Wring of gunpowder in them., as (list which
produced, he could venture to say, excelled
sample that could be found all over the ‘x°rifr
To the question respecting the Staff of the Ar,;hl
lery, h had to answer there was no Staff. ,to
vacant; es that might occur, it was intend°,o
fill up in the way which had been described►
as this system met with the Hon. Member's .o`,o
prob.:tiots, be begged to retorts his thanks for,oo
foamier io w hi, it it had been mentioned.
question started as to the Colonies was one o'hito
it would ;sot he proper for him to enter Ivo
upon. Whatever the merits of the case origllllo
at present he was obliged to bring the Estill°
torward in the usual way.
The Resolotion was then agreed to.—'the
lowing grants were next voted :
For the service of the Board of Ordnance for 819..1,-3—',l
For the service of the Bum dof Ordnance for 1818, 001- 4.
nut provided for
To defray the expellee of irdneing tote I
e Military 00(1
Corps connected with the Ordnance
101
Mr. liuME,. recurring to the objections beige
before urged against the gunpowdermanufeel'i ~e)/
complained that the expence of them w 45 110
great. The cue) of 7,5001. seemed to
enormous charge for 10,000 hart els of gori tt4
der. He also complained of the accounts ° isle
department having been sriffered to get 01°Lfe'
rear., some of those for 1814 nut having, Ye(
sent in for examination.
e co'l)
Mr. ‘VAttn lamented as much as any no- 1,
the great arreitr of accounts, hut showeditir!
been impossible to svotO it, front their beN
widely dispersed an over the Nu e. lit
instances, those offieets with whom the Otoi
ginated, were laboorio:: under severe di•pie9sl,
;
and several prosecutoses had beets etosoncoese,
„,
The toilowiAg grants were lieXt prop--C‘P
agreed to
6t :
Tu defray the charge created by the allowances to •51
•
supetaanuated Air( rs retired --
To pay allowances of retired otticcrs wit provided for
in Isis - .. • ;5'
For superannuated alhiaances oche,. rst:,l the ttr,;-
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