The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-27 00:00:00

for which 298,0001. were to be voted this year, and
during the last five years there was no less a sum than
than 1,123,000/ voted for the same. There was
210,000/. voted for the support of officers' widows and
children, which allowed about Bs. or 9s. a-week
for their support, and if they were not able
to live on that they. must go to a workhouse.
The amount of the pensions of the widows and children
on the army list was considerably less than the navy,
although the number of men in the army was so much
greater. The reason was obvious ; the army accounts
were published, the navy accounts were not. Before asking
for any vote he trusted they should be made acquainted
with the number of widows and children, and the grades
of their parents. It was right that the House
and the country should have the information.
A Committee ought to inquire thoroughly into these
matters. Were this done such an amount as that now
upon the list would not be tolerated. Such a Committee
as the Finance Committee of 1828, would look search-
ingly into these pensions, and he was satisfied, without
doing injustice to any one, materially reduce the amount
now charged upon it.
Mr. FIELDING, who was scarcely audible in the
gallery, was understood to say, that before supplies
were granted they ought to ascertain whether the taxes
now imposed were levied in a fair and proper manner.
He protested against the income-tax, as being the most op-
pressive tax in its operation which had existed for centuries.
The Government were bringing down the hatred and
animosity of the poorer classes by their support of the
infamous poor-laws ; and there was a similar feeling
rising in the minds of the middle classes in consequence
of the operation of the income-tax. He should cer-
tainly vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Rochdale.
Dr. BOWRING wished to state briefly the reasons
inducing him to support the motion of his Hon. Friend.
He did so because he thought it was one of those
great constitutional principles which a Member of the
House had a right to adopt, when he thought that the
people wereunfairly represented, for it was essential that
the people, when they were taxed, should have some
person to represent their opinions in the House. The
people of this country amounted to between twenty and
thirty millions, and out of those, not one million were
possessed of votes ; and, therefore, the great mass had
a right to be dissatisfied when they saw such a want of
control on their part, and of want of economy on that
of the Government.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when the returns which he had moved for upon a former
occasion, with respect to the Income-tax Commission,
would be laid upon the table.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who
was nearly inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say
that two of the the returns to which the Hon. Gentleman
had just alluded were already nearly completed, and the
third would be prepared as soon as possible.
Mr. ROCHE condemned the course which the
Government pursued with respect to Ireland in en-
deavouring to govern there by military occupation, in-
stead of by justice and conciliation. Those grievances
of which the Irish people complained should be
done away with, and above all the incubus
of the Established Church should be removed. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had not attempted to
meet the difficulties in Ireland; they had not striven to
grapple with the causes of the present excitement. He
told the Right Hon. Gentleman that the Government
had not military possession of Ireland, as had been re-
peatedly said in the course of the present debate. The
troops had possession of the barracks, the war steamers
of the harbours, but the inhabitants held possession of
the country. The country was held by the deep feelings of
loyalty whieh the Irish people entertained for their
Sovereign. Although Hon. Members might consider
that people ignorant, they understood the principle of a
limited monarchy, and did not attribute to the Sovereign
the delinquencies of her Ministry. They remembered
well the kindly feelings expressed by her Majesty
towards Ireland when she ascended the throne. He
did not mean any disrespect to Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
but he did not consider they were equal to encounter the
present great and alarming crisis.
Mr. GISBORNE said that if the Hon. Member who
had brought forward the present motion had assigned
any substantial reasons for the course, he would have
supported him, but he did not see any practical reason
for postponing the consideration of the estimates. Why
should they not be postponed after, as well as before
Easter ? No reason existed now for their postpone-
ment, that would not exist then. If he saw that any
real good could be effected, or any grievance redressed,
he would support the motion, but as it was of so indefi-
nite a nature, he must oppose it.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority against the motion —94
Sir C. NAPIER rose, on the motion for going into Com-
mittee of Supply on the navy estimates, to bring the
constitution of the Board of Admiralty under the con-
sideration of the House, and said that it must be admitted
by Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite that up to a very late
period, the mode of ship-building was very defective,
and even in this, the greatest maritime country in the
world, ship-building was most inferior to other countries.
One of the most clumsy, expensive, and inefficient pub-
lic undertakings ever executed was the dockyard at
Sheerness. It cost four or five millions of money; and,
though constructed at such enormous cost, it was in a
most inefficient state of defence. The progress of steam
at the time should have shown that it could have been
built much more efficiently at a much smaller expense.
He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in the pro-
priety of dissolving the different Boards of Admiralty
be had done; but then the question was, whether what
he had substituted in their stead was efficient
or essential for the purpose. He doubted very much
whether they were so, as they tended to place the
officers newly appointed under the sole control of the
Lords of the Admiralty, who were changed with every
Administration. The way in which the Lords of the
Admiralty conducted their affairs—he would not call it
business, because that gave offence last year—(Laughter)
—was most slovenly. They just went down to Somer-
set-house, and said, " Well, how do affairs go on?" The
reply always was, " Very well."—(Laughter.) And
then, after some little chat among themselves, they put
on their hats and walked off.--(Laughter.) Then,
with respect to the dock-yards, he thought that
there was much to be complained of relative to them.
He admitted the Admiralty, as it was now conducted,
had acted with a little more propriety in distributing its
patronage than under the former system, but still there
were many persons employed who had never gone to
sea. The Hon. and Gallant Commodore then referred
to several returns which he had called for, showing the
persons employed in the navy, and their previous occu-
pations. Having moved for these returns in 1842, he
called for similar returns in 1843, from which it ap-
peared, that in that year 178 persons, who had never
been in the navy, were promoted to lucrative situations
in the dockyards. He gave great credit to the
present Admiralty for the regulation which they
had made that when a ship came into port, the com-
mander should be called upon to recommend his
list of officers and artificers for the situations
which he might consider them competent to fill in the
civil departments, and he believed that if they followed
up that principle, it would be attended with considerable
benefit to the public service. He had moved for a return
of all persons who had entered into the civil service in
naval establishments, distinguishing whether they had
been in the navy before, and, if not, what situations they
tilled, and who had recommended them. He wanted to
getss the information how many gentlemen's. servants
had been plsed in each situations. But the Right Hon.
Gentleman said that such a return would be invidious;
but he would give a return, distinguishing.
thecivilians
from those who had served in the navy.—(A laugh,)
Now, he had once II servant who wished him
to procure a situation at the tiMe vacant—there
was another situation vacant at the San* Ono, and a
relative of his had a similar application, But they
both refused, thinking it was unfair to the service; how-
ever, what was the result ? the places were filled up, but
not from the navy.—(Hear, hear,) One was given to
one who had lived servant in an hotel, and the other
was given to some gentleman's servant ; but he would
not mention names. Much had been said at the Ad-
miralty and elsewhere about the management of the
last High Admiral, but, notwithstanding all that had
been said, his Royal Highness had given great spirit to
the navy—(Hear, hear)—and had introduced a system
which promoted discipline and the efficiency of the ser-
vice.—(The Hon. and Gallant Officer then read several
numerical statements relating to promotions in the sere
vice, and appointments in the dock-yards, but so rapidly,
and indistinctly, that it was impossible to collect his figures
or their-application.) From the returns moved for in 1843,
it appeared that 332 commanders were promoted to the
rank of post-captain ; 535 lieutenants were made com-
manders; and 945 midshipmen were made lieutenants,
—(Hear, hear.) This was referred to as a proof that
there had been a great promotion, but what were the
facts-234 commanders, 259 lieutenants, and 928 mid
shipmen had died since the late promotion,—(Hear.)
That, he thought, was enough to show that the principle
of promoting one and one-third had, not been carried out
at
iiemrm
wasps impossible
ell
to of opinion that unless they came
tivooaauilL H
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loaok retiringfor
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economyfor th
inro
the
navyPi,
motions. He thought that the present Government
was responsible for not bringing the navy into a state
of efficiency, by expending a small sum of money to in-
duce men to retire from the service. Having attained
that point he should say that no man should be promoted
until a vacancy occurred, and then he should give one-
third to seniority, and one-third .to wbat'was called
the " Admiralty appointments." In the evidence
taken before the Shipwreck Committee it was
clearly shown how just and expedient it was topromote to
such situations as landing waiters in the Customs, and
very good situations in the Dock-yards-----(A laugh).—
those men in the coast guard service, who had distin-
guished themselves, by their exertions in saving life.
The Hon. and Gallant Officer then read extracts from
the evidence, to show that such was the opinion of the
naval officers examined before the Committee, He
would next refer to the regulations respecting masters
in the navy. The rate of remuneration to those officers
was regulated in the most extraordinary manner ima-
ginable. A master of a three-decker received 212/. per
annum as his salary, which was never increased unless
he was promoted to a situation in the Pngklard ;
whereas the master of a small brig, or any other small craft.,
was paid a yearly salary of 2191.,
thus receiving / 4
more than the officer of the larger vessel, on the ground
of there being tie W11147411t qffieer to attend to the stores
in the small craft, while it seetne4 tp.be left out of con-
sideration altogether, that the master a the #rst-Tate
ship had to attend, not certainly to what was known a-4
the stores, but the yards, rigging, spars, Scs., all of
which were Edged in his charge, and this, too, when it
was well-known that if the master of a three-decker did
his duty, he must be generally up, all night pa deck,
whenever there was a gale or the vessel was' iii after
shore, and, in fact, whenever and wherever (and such