The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

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TRE gU-N, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MARCH 2-13- 1844,

and working hard at their -task, when they were com-
pelled to say, we are not working for our hread,lout to
pay the landlords their bread-tax ?—(Cheers.) He
wive them the best advice for their own interest.
--(Hear, hear.) If they really -wanted, to 'maintain the
corn-laws let them maintain them as a-corn-law- only.
But let thetn not make the people of this country be-
lievelhat those laws were linked with all =the abuses 'and
all the evils they were compelled to suffer.- He had done
with the arguments, he - intended to use.on this subject;
r he had stated those arguments in a manner that had
satisfied his own mind, but .he was .not sure
that he had been as able to satisfy others,
though there .might be some who would perhaps
think he had made out a tolerably, plausible case.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) It now remained to be seen
what the House would do on this most important clues-
tion.--(llea,r, leer.) The Government bad taken a
course which: whatever might be the right or wrong of
the question, would always be a dangerous and impolitic
one. It might give rise to feelings that never ought to
be excited—feelings that might long outlive the decision
itself. But he was prepared to give the Government
credit for the honesty of the conviction under which they
had.been bold enough to encounter such a load of bblo.
quy and unpopularity. 'Would those , Hon. Gentlemen
who voted for this amendment the other night—would
they be less bold than they were?—(Great cheering.)
Would they have less confidence in their cause—would
they.shrink front .their-duty ?—(Cheers.) They had a
gratifying division the other night.--(Hear.) Let them
say what they would, they could not deny that they had
men of all parties, of all interests, united in a great pub-
lic" eause.—(Cheers.) Let the same feeling that ani-
mated them then, animate the gentlemen new so that
neither absence nor change should affect that-bold course
of humanity and sound principle, which the House had
done itself honour by. adopting.—(The Hon. Gentleman
sat down amid loud cheering.)
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON rose amidst much confusion,
to address the Haase. He said he did not intend so much to
join in the discussion as to rescue a constituent of his from an
accidental misrepresentation which had been made with respect
to him by the Noble Lord who had brought this question before
the House. In the course of his observations he had read a
statement of the ages of operatives employed in factories, and
alleged that Mr. Peter Holroyd had refused employment to a
man in his factory because he was 43 years of age, and there-
fore, too old for the occupation. He could contradict the state-
ment ; such an event had sever occurred. Having said this
much on the point, he would not trespass any longer on the
indulgence of the House at this late hour.—( Cries of " Di-
vide, divide." < • .
Mr. COLLETT moved that the Chairman report progress.
—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide," 's Go on, go on," " Ad-
journ, adjourn," in the midst Qf which—
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked whether the Committee was
disposed at once to adjourn ?-44‘ Oh, oh.") He wished to
know whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to go to a division without some expression of opinion on
their parts--without alleging some . reasons for the course they
would pursue ?—( Hear, hear.) What the Hon. Member for
Liskeard said was perfectly true, that the Government were
sanguine of substituting twelve hours for ten, and reversing the
decision which the House had come to on the other evening.
He could. only . say: that the people of :the country were
prepared for any injustioe and inconsistency on the part of the
House and :the Government.—( Oh, oh, and Hear, hear. )
When they were called on to commit this gross inconsistency
they. bad a right to know what were the sentiments of her Ma-
jesty's Government. If they reversed their former decision it
would create great consternation amongst the working-classes
of the manufacturing districts.---(,Cheers.) The Honourable
Member for Sheffield said that he had no fear of perilling
his seat by the vote he gave. He (Mr. Duncombe)
thought he would not say so if the operatives possessed
the franchise. He (Mr. Duncornhe) had presented a petition
to the House, signed by 3,000,000 of the working classes of
the country, and one of the grievances of which they com-
plained was the excessive toil which they were obliged to
undergo to enable them to live. The Noble Lord the Member
for Dorsetshire,had brought forward this grievance, and they
decided thit it ought to be \ redressed. —( Hear, hear.) The
House gave the subject its best consideration, and divided upon
it twice. They might disguise the question as they would,
but the country looked upon it as a question between avarice
and liumanity—between an insatiable thirst for gain and mo-
rality.—( cheers. ) • This was called a spurions'humapity, but
it was that, humanity which, as had been truly said by the Hon.
Member for Liskeard—which obtained negro emancipation, and
forced the lash from the hand of the slave-drtver.—( Cheers. )
And it was that Spurious humanity which Would set free the
white slaves of this country.—{,Cries of Hear, hear.")
It was a question which -could not be long de-
layed, and -it was well known in - the• manufacturing
districts, that 'it would ameliorate the condition, social and
moral,_of the working elasses.—(Sear, hear.) Ai far, there•
fore, as his individual vote. was concerned,.it Ins very much at

he Noble• Lord's service. • •-•
. Sir J. 'GRAHAM Jose amidst loud cries of " Divide,
divide," responded to by cries of ." Go on, go en." The
Right Hon. Baronet said, if it was the pleasure of the House
to go. -to a division that evening—(Cheers)—he certainly
wished to_address them very' shortly.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HINDLEY moved the
.adjournment of the debate.•-•--
(Cries of " No, no," and confnsion.) .
Sir J. GRAHAM said,. es-he..wis ,in possession of -the
House, he should certainly avail himself of the opportunity of
making a•few observations. If he were of opinion, with the
Member for Finsbury, that the social and physical improve-
ment of the working classes in the manufacturing districts
Would really be advanced-by the adoption of the proposal of the
Noble Lord, no person in that- House would more willingly ric-
cede to it than himself; but it was because they had arrived at
the opposite conClUsion..thatlie felt it his duty to persevere in
his opposition to -that proposal.-4 Cheers. ),- Notwitstanding
the threat of the Honourable Member for Pontefract
that her Majestyl, would be, addressed by, that House, in
an address expressive of disapprobation of the Govern-
ment—notwithstanding the haughty contempt of the
Noble Lord_ the Member for Newark, and the threat
thit great convnlskills.woulct come, unless the motion of the
Noble Lord was carrieds-notwithstanding the taunt, he must
say, not a very. friendly, one,-,of the Hon. Member for the
University of, Oxford—notwithstanding the accustomed jeers
•of the Hon. ember fur Liskeard—he was bound to say that,
consideiing all, the circumstances of the case, he had newer
Come to a less hesitating conclusion than that at which he had
arrived on this occasion—namely, that it was his imperative
duty to take the sense of the House against the proposal of the
Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire.—(Cheers.) With
regard to. surprise, be' must say that _he had endea-
voured to avoid as far as possible any such charge,
by stating to the Committee, immediately after its
decision, what course it was his intention to pur-
sue. It was necessary that he should explain to the
Committee why he had adopted such an unusual course. In
the firstplace he was taken by surprise by the result of the-
former division, He was taken by surprise on finding himself
opposed tp the ./sToble Lord the Member for London, and seve-
ral other members of the late Government. He (Sir James
Graham), harings
on several occasions, in the Government
of 1833, and as late as 1839,, when, in opposition, given his
cordial and strenuous support to the very course which her
szonsty,s advisersw erenow
pursuing.—(Hear, hear.) He
had thought it necessary, considering the very great interests
at .stake, that time should 'be given for public opinion to
operate upon the proceedings of that House., The Noble Lord
tbe Member for London had on.the last occasion rested his
vote very much on the speech of his Hon. Friend the Member
for. Leeds.—( Hear,
hear. ) Avery important declaration had
been made, on that occasion by his Hon. -Friend. He stated
that 300 master manufacturer, in the West Riding of York-
shire, were favourable to the proposition of the Noble Lord, and
that thirty-three master manufacturers in the city which he
represented,.bad come to a similar conclusion.—( Hear, hear.)
Now, as that statement Was calculated to produce a great im-
pression on the House, it was of the last importance that her
Majesty's Ministers should ascertain what was the opinion
of that great manufacturing city, and of the cot-
ton district of Manchester. Now he spoke in the
presence of his Honourable Friend who had formed part
of a deputation from the flax manufacturers of Leeds, beaded
-by Mr. Marshall ; and that deputation stated that a Ten
hours' Bill would be fatal to their interests.— ( Hear, hear,)
There was a great division among the woollen manufactures, but
it was understood they would consent to an Eleven Hours' Bill,
though the majority had insuperable objections to a Ten
Hours BIL But what was far mere important, what were
the' communications which he (Sir J. Graham) had received
from 'the great- manufacturing districts of Lancashire ? It
would be impertinent in him, at that late hour, to occupy the
Committee 'by going' over all the statements which he had
received, and of which the substance was already familiar to
the House. But he would briefly state what had been com-
municated to him from that great commercial interest. He
had this day received a deputation of eight or ten gentlemen,
employing 10,000 workmen, and representing 140 firms in Lan-
easbire—(Hear, hear)—and the summary of their, opinions
was this: that M earnestly entreated the Government not to
agree to the proposition of the-Noble Lord, as to any reduction
of the hours of labour below twelve. Seven were in favour of
eleven hours, and the remaining Nur were in favour of ten
hours.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Liskeard asked for
fresh arguments and reasoning to induce the Committee to re-.
consider its decision. Now he (Sir J. Graham) was obliged
to admit that his powers of reasoning were so imperfect, that
he was not able to give any fresh arguments; but all subse-
quent consideration led him to the conclusion, that beyond all
doubt the proposition of the Noble Lord would be fatal to those
whose welfare he had at heart, and whose interest he had so
ably and consistently espoused.--( Hear, hear. In the first
place it would lead to a diminution of wages. The chairman
of the Factories Deputation, now in London, admitted that he
was not very sanguine that a reduction of wages would not be
the consequence of. the reduction of time.—(Cheers from Mr.
Ferrand.) The Hon. Member for Knaresborough cheered.—
( Renewed cheers from Mr. Ferrand.) Notwithstanding that
cheer, he would say that he was satisfied that an early and large
reduction of wages viola: be 'the. necessary consequence of the
Noble Lord's proposition..-(Hear, hear.) He was convinced
that the disappointment would be most poignant, and he would
make any sacrifice rather than be a party to the preparing of
such disappointment as he clearly foresaw must be the result of
the Noble Lord's proposition.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. FERRAND.—Give us a trial.-(.Laughter. )
Sir J. GRAHAM- said, there were many experiments of
which the result might •be very doubtful; but let the issue be
what it might be, the good, if good it were, might be bat
small ; but the evil, if evil, was not to be repaired, and might
go on for ever, with a velocity impossible to check,
and an accumulation impossible to reduce.—( Cheers. )
He entreated the Committee to remember the declara-
tion of the' Hon. 'Member for Oldhatn—the honest, faith-
ful, and persevering coadjutor of the Noble Lord—that the
Hesitation to ten hours was not sufficient, and that he would
hhiself persevere until he attained 'an Eight Hours' Bill.— .
(Hear.) Was this their settlement ?—( Hear.) His oPinion
was this; that our manufacturers, with their expensive ma-
chinery, were to be placed under such an arrangement as
this, in competition with • foreign countries—with Austria,
France, Switzerland, and Belgium—the proposition was to
limit the labour of the English operative to sixty hours a week,
whereas in those other countries, they worked eighty-four
boil's- a week—the'effect would be ultimately to drive British
menufactures out (of the foreign market. Bat it was -said
that the Noble Lord's proposition would not be brought into
nperation in its full extent at once, that the limitation in the
beginning should be to eleven hours—and that in' two
years the ten ' hours' system should come into ope-
ration: Now, be should-'say, that if the- system was to be
adopted at all, it should be adopted at once. There existed
it present many opportunities and many inducements for
transferring our manufactures to foreign countries. What
would be the effect of our.restricting our operatives to certain
'hours of labour, when they had to contend with other countries
where there was no limitation as to hours of labour ? It was
true that in France there was a law to regulate the hours of
'labour; but it was totally ineffectual from the want of a
system of inspection ; and there was a firm on
the confines of Switzerland, under which the people
were 'employed fourteen and sixteen hours asday. -
In 'America, next to-Belgium, our greatest rival, there was no
limitation upon the hours of labour. The inevitable effect of
' tbe.Bill would -be -to drive away all our best machinery, and
'with it ultimately.our capital would follow, and seek a profit•
able employment in other lands. And what, then, would be
the effect our the immense masses of our labouring people when! .
`iiitiehinery and capital being gone, the 'MAW fOrlahonr
should cease ? -- He had every respect for the Statements