The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-17 00:00:00

-77

most instances;'' when an Officer retired, he was
succeeded by the next officer in command, and
and in all cases he was granted his half-pay when any
accident occurred. He regretted to be compelled to
differ from so high an authority as the Hon. and Gallant
Officer the Member for Marylebone; but still he (Sir
G. Cockburn) should say dial he was confident, if war
were to break out to-morrow, the fleet would be quite as
well manned and officered as it ever had been. The
question brought forward by the Gallant Officer was one
of great importance and intricacy, and therefore it was
a matter for fair discussion, and considering the points
relating. to it pro and con., and then decide upon what
was best to be done.

Captain PECHELL thought the expressions which fell
from the Gallant Officer who had just sat down, afforded
further proofs of what had been frequently asserted
before—namely, that it *as hard under the present
system, to render justice to the officers in the distribu-
tion of promotion. That Gallant Officer lid alluded to
precedents, as also did the Right Hon. *Baronet at the
head of the Government.; but this Commission would
never have been appointed were it not for the number
of times which the question had been brought before
the House. The Gallant Officer who bad lately been
ippointed to the Government of the East (Sir H. Har-
dinge) had spoken most manfully in behalf of the navy,
for which they felt deep gratitude. Ile (Captain
Yechell) got several letters from the masters in the
navy, complaining of the manner in which they had
been treated; and also of certain expressions-which were
used in that House, and which they thought'were likely
to lower their position insociety. The claims of those
officers had not been brought before the Commission,
and, he considered this to be a great hardship. Many of
ihe officers had no opportunity, from their long resi-
dence_ on shore, of being sufficiently conversant with
nautical affairs, and in order to obviate this evil, be con-
sidered it would be necessary that some change
should be made in order that the younger
officers might have some opportunity of be-
coming practically acquainted with their profession.
He stated that employment in the navy was never ob-
tained except by means of political or aristocratic in-
fluence. This was notorious ; one Board of Admiralty
might be slightly better than another; but, to use a
naval expression, they were all tarred with the same
brush. They would give employment or promotion to
those deserving of it, being continually pressed upon by
political influence. With respect to the employment of
ships, he stated that the Queen, of 110. guns, was kept
during nine-tenths of her period of service at anchor in
Malta harbour. And he could state another instance, in
which a ship, on board of which some important experi-
ments had been tried—the Fox—and of which experi-
ments the operation had never been tested. This vessel
had been lying ever since in the river Shannon, whether
for the purpose of collecting the poor's rates, or frighten-
ing the unfortunate natives, he did not know. But for the
sake of improvement in naval architecture, he felt indig-
nant that there had been such apathy in both eases.
•In neither case had a sufficient trial been given to the
improvements. It was the object of the motion to pro-
cure more frequent employment for young officers—that
principle the Gbverinnent had itself acted upon in choos-
ing the young and Gallant Member for Ipswich, whom
-they sent to Hong-Kong to share the prize-money with
Admiral Parker, which, no doubt, he was very sv•ell able
to do.—(Hear, hear.) Were young officers more fre-
quently employed, it would give more satisfaction to the
profession. He believed that the present Board of Ad-
miralty were as well disposed to them as any other, and
he hoped they would listen to the motion of the Gallant
Commodore, being assured that it did not at all interfere
with the prerogative of the Crown.
Lord INGESTRE said, he should not follow the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton from Ireland
to Hong-Kong and back again. He was as - well
dispose. to promote the object of the motion
as any one, and he was as capable of exercising an inde-
pendent vote in that House as the Hon. and Gallant
Member. But there was a question of prudence involved
in this matter.—(Hear, hear.) He questioned whether
the reiteration of these motions, without a chance of
obtaining the object in view, was not doing an injury to
the cause, especially when such discussions were pressed
in a House so thinly. attended. He should not vote
against the motion of the Gallant Commodore, neither
ihould he vote with him. But he trussed he would not
press his motion to a division, for, if he did, he would
do great injury to the cause he advocated. The ques-
tion was much better left in the hands of the Executive,
because this House was not a court of appeal in ques-
tions of this sort. With the respect to the delay of the
Queen in Malta Harbour, he thought there might be
good political reasons for it, and though-it was desirable
to try vessels, to test their powers, and exercise them,
yet opportunities were not always available for doing so.
Captain HARRIS (the new Member for Christchurch)
and Mr. Hume rose together—the latter gave way,
and the Hon. and Gallant Gentlemen addressed the
[louse. He said • the question was one of the greatest
interest, and though he should not be disposed to inter-
fere with the Executive, yet as that House voted the
supplies, if it should express a wish to put the navy
list in better order, he did not see why they should not
do so. With respect to the Gallant Commodore's plan
of allowing 1001. a year to 100 captains as a retirement,
he thought many of them would not accept it ; still he
would have no objection to support the proposition, pro-
vided it was clearly understood that the arrangement
should be voluntary.
Mr. HUME said the question was one of great im-
portance, and had been often submitted to the House.
It appeared, from all the debates on the subject, that
they bad a list of so many officers of different ranks,
yet, from the whOle list, they would have a difficulty in
iifficering a fleet. Though he had heard that contra-
dicted, yet it was certain that the list contained a great
many men who could not, under any circumstances, re-
enter the service. Thus, whilst they had apparently a
large naval establishment, they had really a most in-
ferior one. They were paying and keeping up an ap-
parently great military establishment, while their force
was really a small one. The estimates were no less
than six millions, yet they were told that a large num-.
ber of officers were unfit for service. They had heard
that the House of Commons was not to interfere-in this
matter—

Sir G. COCKBURN said that he had not denied the
right of the House of Commons to interfere with respect
to the navy.
Mr. HUME said he had understood the Gallant
Officer to say that the House was not to interfere with
the promotion or pay of the navy, and the Hon. and
Gallant Officer grounded his opposition to the motion
on the fact of a Naval Commission having been ap-
pointed three or four years ago. He considered an in-
quiry into the state of the navy would be of the greatest
importance, because he believed it would bo shown that
many deserving officers had been' set by to make way
for young men, the friends of the partisans of the Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) From the report of 1838 it
appeared there were 683 captains in the royal navy, 313
of whom never served a single day after they were
posted.—(Hear, hear.) There was one admiral who
had served only nine years, and was only one year
in actual service. He believed the same admiral had latel)
got a command in .Malta. He had supported the Hon. and
Gallant Memberr-for Greenwich when he brought forward
his motion for an inquiry into the state of the navy with
a view to renatiyeAkve who Were unfit for service. That
was a proper principle, and -he believed no naval officer
in or out of the House:would object .to it.—(Hear.) They
had now wasted four years ,and a half, and nothing had
been done. He thought the toasters, who were a most
meritorious class of persons, had been treated with great
injustice.—(Hear.) If inquiry were-granted he hoped
it would not be limited to Clearing the list, but would be
extended to ascertain how it had become so numerous.
The appointments in the navy rested with the head of
the Admiralty, and' of course, political influence was
regarded.—(Hear.) This was not the principle on
which the best bulwark of the country should rest.—
(Hear.) He had not 'opposed the grant to the effective
part of the navy. It was the money that was applied to
the useless and extravagant parts of it that he objected
to.—(Hear, hear.) They had seven captains and seven
lieutenants for a 'ship, and only used ono.—(Hear, hear.)
Would any one keep seven coachmen. and only use one !
—(Hear, and laughter.) It was no wonder then that
they had to pay 1,500,000/. to officers on half-pay. If
the half-pay list were examined it would be found that
the service of most of the officers had been but
but small.—(Hear, hear.) A regulation had been
made that no promotion should take place till three
persons had died. That had been acted upon for some
time, but the returns would prove that it had so.in been
disregarded. _ The practice had been to place school-
boys over the heads of old officers, but he was glad to
think that things were not so bad now. At the same
time, he did not think that the old officers should be
pensioned off without sufficient grounds. lle did not
think the Gallant Commodore would d 3 so himself,—
(Hear, hear.) But he thought that an inquiry ought to
be granted.
Mr. S. HERBERT did not think the Hon. Gentleman
who had just spoken could have heard the motion of the
Hon, and Gallant Commodore, or the reply Of his Right
Hon. Friend—(Hear, hear)—for he seemed to mistake
the question altogether. The real question was, whether
the remedy which the Hon. and Genera Commodore
proposed would cure the evils which they were all will-
ing to admit.—(llear, hear.). He believed that the effect
of his motion would be to add 25,000/. a year to the
permanent burden% of the country without effecting the
good he expected from it. How would it act ? if the
retirement were optional, those who were at the tep of
the list would refuse the additional pay, and would run
the chance of their lives against the hope of being made
rear-admirals.—(Hear, hear.) They should then go
down the list to the young officers, who would accept
the retirement, and the consequence would be that the
old officers would be in active servic', and the young
men would be on the retired list.—(ll.nr, hear.)
Anything like compulsory retirement was out of the
question. He admitted that the practice of promoting
men according to seniority was good, but under pre-
sent circumstances it could not be done on a large
,seale.
Such was the practice in France, and he approved of it.
But there were different opinions amongst naval officers,
and the question being a large one, and the remedy pro-
posed being one which would prove ineffectual, he
should -vote against the motion of the Hon. and Gallant
Commodore. He should not regard the expense if it re-
medied the evil complained of, but if at the end of teo
years they found themselves whore they were before it
would bo absurd to impale such a burden on the coun-
try. He hoped the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would
withdraw his motion.

Captain CARNEGIE said he should oppose the mo-
tion, because it was a direct interference withtheaou-
tive Government; because if the
.retirement were
ontionql, thqsc at the head oP the list would decline the
adfiional pay of 58. a day in the hope of obtaining the
rank of rear-admiral. • Ile did not think there was occa-
sion for immediate inquiry.
Sir C. NAPIER replied. He did not think he ev4i.
heard the Right Hon. Gentleman make so lqi4 4.0
weak, a reply as_tq his.speech.-74INhte0 He had
not attempted to controvert the,*case, he (sir C. Napier)
Aid.wit &wove hi* statement that the