The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

with a country where the great majority of the people professed
Roman Catholic principles—persons in the very utmost degree
opposed to the doctrines of the Established Church.
And they proposed to give the persons professing that religion
the opportunity of receiving the same academical education.
And they proposed to do this by establishing three distinct
colleges in different parts of the country. In the north they
proposed to build one of these colleges, where it might be ex-
pected that the benefits of the establishment would accrue to
the members of the Presbyterian Church. They proposed
also, in the south and west of Ireland, to found institutions
peculiarly applicable to the necessities of the Roman Catholic
population. His Hon. Friend had said that he objected to this
measure, because it did not make religious instruction a-necessary
part of. the education of the people. He conceived that it was
incumbent upon them as a Protestant Government to
maintain the integrity of the Queen's College in Dublin,
but he could not concur in the policy which the
Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Inglis) advocated of laying
dswn certain rules prohibiting the interference of Government
with the youth of Ireland. If they attempted to attach weight
to any system of national education, they must study the re
ligious bias of the people, before they could hope to overcome
the prejurhees of the country. But his Hon. Friend asked
him why he did not supply theelogical instruction also? Here
he must give credit to his Hon. Friend for the consistency he
evinced in opposing the grant to Maynooth, fgir when they
proposed to supply education through that institution the Right
Hon. 13aronet oppose.: it, and said that it was opposed to the
principles of true religion. He regretted to hea- the Right Hon.
Gentleman the .`ember for Dungarvon state that they ought
to have consuted the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland
before they had definitely arranged their plans With re-
spect to these educational establishments. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman might not he aware that they had done so in
proposing this grant for the purposes of Roman Catholic in-
struction. The Right Hon. Gentleman had complained that
they (the Government) had not consulted them on this occa-
sion, and that in consequence the Government measure would
certainly fail. If they had consulted the Roman Catholic Prelates,
he did not see that they were notbound to consult the ecclesias-
tical authorities c.f England also. Ard he would venture to say
that if they had done so, it would be impossible to reduce
to practise any general system of education. They found that
in the neighbourhood of Cork, Galway, and Limerick, there
were no means of educational instruction existing, and the Go-
vernment intended to supply that deficiency. They intended
to found professorships in the different walks of science, of art,
and of literature, and they would endeavour to provide the
means for establishing a medical school in the same locality.
Ent if they endeavoured to endow a Protestant professor in a
locality purely Catholic, it might with justice be demanded
that they should endow a Roman Catholic professor also. He
had hoped that the arrangement tacitly agreed to, would have
been decided en by either party. They would be willing to
aliow everything for what they considered the advantage of
either religion. They intended to provide apartments for those
young persons who received religious instruction from profes-
sors of divinity, from clergymen connected with the religion of
each pupil. When his Honourable Friend the Member
for the University of Oxford called this measure a
gigantic scheme of Godless education, he ( Sir R. Peel) would
prove to his Hon. Friend that he had for twenty years been a
party to a precisely similar system. He (Sir R. Inglis) had
supported the institution of Belfast, which had been conducted
on exactly the same principles, and which had met the support
of many of the highest parties in the empire, as the Bishop of
Down and Cashel, the Bishop of Dunmore, and the
Marquis of Downshire. He had no doubt that if
the House passed this measure, it would be the
very best means of affording peace to Ireland, by instituting a
reciprocal course of charity, which would go far to bring about
that happy result,
Mr. SHER. explained that he had not been aware that
apartments would be provided for divinity lectures, and this
certainly made a very considerable difference. The circum-
stanee of such accommodation being provided would give great
satisfaction.

Mr. SHAW said he did not mean to occupy the time of the
house but for a very short period ; but on a question of this
sort, when the name of the institution which he represented
had been introduced, and so frequently referred to, he thought
he was called upon to make a few observations. He was happy
to observe that a measure like this, coming from the present
Government, had been so well received by the opposite party;
and though he did not entirely approve of the measure, yet
he did not rise for the purpose of saying that he would oppose
the introduction of the measure. He agreed with the
Honourable Member • for Belfast, that this would be
a most useful and beneficial measure for Ireland ;
for, in the southern districts of that country, the middle-classes,
who were Roman Catholic, would have then all the facilities of
a liberal education, while the middle-classes in the north, who
were Presbyterian, would have placed within their reach the
enjoyment of a like advantage. But he should confess that,
with regard to the question of religious education, that pre-
sented such a difficulty that he could not well see his way
through it. In Trinity College, Dublin, persons of all reli-
gious denominations were admitted therefor educational pur-
poses, and there was no necessity imposed for the residence of
the pupils in the college, for they received their religious in-
structions from their parents or guardians, or those with whom
they might happen to be located.—( Hear, hear.) He had
heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Dungarvon, but he did not think the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had correctly represented what he stated in the first in-
stance. He (Mr. Shaw) should say that the Right Hon.
Gentleman was in error as to the practice at Trinity College, and
the emolument of the professors. The College was as open as
it could be to Roman Catholics with respect to education, and
for competition for all the offices and emoluments.

Mr. 'S HEIL —What emoluments?
11r. SHAW wished not to be misunderstood. He did not
mean the fellowships, but the professorships, of which there
were eight, and one of which, that of professor of Italian, was a
Roman Catholic. Then as to those "vast emoluments" that
had been spoken of, why, there were no such emoluments ; the
emoluments were very trifling, indeed scarcely anything. It
was true they had chambers, but their allowance was very
small. But, on the whole, he would say that in no one point
of view in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had put the
question, could he (Mr. Shaw) agree that Trinity College
should be thrown open to all, because it was a college that had
been established for Protestant pus poses exclusively. It would
be utterly impossible that it could be, because, in the first
place, it was impossible that the fellowships could be
open to Roman Catholics, for they were obliged not only to
be Protestants, but frequently to enter the Protestant Church.
Then as to the Board of Seven, of which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had spoken, and that some of them ought to be
Roman Catholics; that Board was composed of seven of the
oldest fellows in the college; their emoluments were derived
from patronage in the Established Church, and would it, there-
fore, be fair or just that Roman Catholics should have the
power of distributing that patropage ?—( Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Shaw) felt inclined to make some observations upon the
speeches of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majasty's
Government and of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department ; but as he did not think the
l weeeirt was the proper time to do so, he would reserve himself
until that time did come. He would, therefore, conclude by
repeating that he would not oppose the introduction of the
measure, nor did he think he would at any period of its pro-
gress offer it any opposition.
Mr. WARBURTON said he would not address one word
to the House on the subject, connected as it was with Ireland,
except that he had heard a good deal said of the London Uni-
versity, of the Senate of which he happened to be a Member,
and of the management of which he had heard some observa-
tions that betrayed ignorance of the subject. Now, the Lon-
don University had no fewer than five Roman Catholic col-
leges connected with it, and those who presided over those col-
leges were candidates for all the honours of that University.
There were also several other colleges connected with it, of
different religious persuasions, and the superintendents' also
enjoyed the same privileges, and the only object of that
was that the academical honours should be open to all classes.
if such were the case, then, in the London
university, let the country hear no more of this exclusive-
ness—( Hear).--and he hoped it would not be long before he
should hear of the State establishing in Dublin a great univer-
sity, similar to the London University.—( Hear.) If they
wished these new universities to flourish, they must open the
secular rewards to the persons who distinguished themselves in
these institutions. He sat down altogether approving of the
measure of her Nlajesty's Government, as far as it went, and
hoped it would be followed up.
Mr. PLU,IIPTRE objected to the plan, as there was no re-
cognition of Christianity, and brought forward the fact that
the Rev. Dr. Arnold, who had been connected with the Lon-
don University, found it necessary to withdraw from it, because
there was no rccognit ion of Christianity entertained there.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he would not trespass
uuon the House, but for the expressions made use of by the
Member for Dublin, who attacked the Hon. Member below
him for the views which he had taken with regard to the pro-
priety of having the fellowships opened to the Roman Catho-
lics. He also wished to set him right on the point, that the
entire of those who had finished their studies at the university
did not become clergymen. As one who had prosecuted his
studies at that university, he (Mr. O'Connell) wished to state
that half of them became members of ths bar. It would be
far better if they adopted the system of excluding none, on
account of religion, from the honours bestowed upon the suc-
cessful candidates at Trinity College, Dublin. It was of the
greatest importance that the Government should leave nothing
undone. Let them not hear of conscientious objections, which
in the course of a few years they would have to set aside.
Let them not wait until another little black cloud
would appear in the horizon, to grant any further
little concessions. He hoped, that as this measure was about
to be followed up, that those educated in Cork would not be
exclusively Roman Catholics, nor those educated in Belfast be
exclusively Presbyterians, but to see all seats receiving
common education in all the colleges. He thought that the
evil was that of establishing these institutions apart from
Trinity College, Dublin. If they did this, they would have a
prejudice raised agsinst them. They would be called pro-
vincial institutions, things of modern date ; and those persons
oho would be educated there would have to go and finish
their education in Trinity College. Dublin, or at Oxford. He
was anxious not to occupy the House further than by saying,
that when the Bill should be brought in he hoped that it would
be found to be one which would give general satisfaction in
Ireland.

Mr. SHAW said a few words in explanation. He would
not now enter into the consideration of this measure, reserving
to himself the right of taking any course he might think St on
a future occasion.

Mr. HOPE felt great repugnance to this measure, as it had
been brought forward to sanction an university in Ireland upon
the principles upon which the University of London had been
established. If the Government had come to the conclusion
that it was necessary for the pacification of Ireland, and for the
improvement of the moral and social condition of that country
to make the magnificent grant of 26,000/. a year to the College
of Maynooth, and 118,000/. to these three colleges, he could
implore them not to stop there. There were other parts of her
Majesty's dominions in which the religion of th.t people was
not adequately cared for. Let them look to the retiring, quiet,
and unobtrusive clergymen of Wales. Let them not turn a deaf
ear to the respectful petitions of the Churchmen of Wales.
Those petitions did not come from meetings held on the hill of
Tara, or from Conciliation Hail, but from peaceful and loyal
subjec's
Mr. ROEBUCK acid so far as he understood the plan of
the Right Hon. Baronet it was intended that Trinity College
should remain for the education f Protes'ants, and Maynooth
for the education of Roman Catholics, while these additional
colleges were to stand between the two for the education of
youth of every religious denomination Now he confessed that
the proposition which had been submitted to the House was
not sufficient to remove the evil which Government appeared
d,•sirons of getting rid of. The Hight Honourable Baronet
the Member for the University of Oxford had pronounced
the measure a " Gigantic scheme of Godless education,"
but it appeared to him the Right Hon. Baronet had made a
last effort to defend a tyrannical power, and he therefore trusted
the Government would treat it with the contempt it merited.
Sir H. WINSTON BARRON, in supporting the motion,
said that he had wanessed examples of liberality in
Protestant countries which Protestant England m'ght imitate,
if not with pride, certainly with advantage. He believed that
Holland Was the most Protestant country in Europe, for he
had found Catholic professors at Utrecht, and a Jew professor
at Haarlem. He had once had a conversation with a professor
in a foreign college, who expressed his surprise that liberal and
Protestant England had in her universities such exclusive, or
he would rather say excluding tests—as the universities of
Cambridge and Oxford had. In the empire of Austria which was
the most Catholic country in Europe, there had recently been
an endowment of a Protestant theological chair. All the at-
tempts that had been made to compel the Irish people to con-
form to the religion of the State hid failed, and the only way to