The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-31 00:00:00

and constructed the Guildford and Woking line, and had surveyed
the line from Guildford to Chichester. The gradient of 1 in 100
was now a very practicable gradi. nt, and he had applied the gradient
of 1 in 110 througout six miles on the Goildferd and Chichester.
On the Manchester and I,4vert;oci Einc there Weiv iradlents of 1 in
atd 1 in 86 ; and on the Newcastle and Carlisle line,
Which had been constructed by himself, there was the gradient of
one 1 in 106, which was four miles long, anti ho thißts,ht, that the
gradients on the Guildford and Chichester lint Wei* anything but
difficult,
inquiries of Mr. this-fan; Mr; gileS stated that the
gradients of I in 86, andin 89 Oh the Moncliest6r and Liver-
pool line) were edek huh anii a half mile in extent, and no extra.
orAiihtiVy ':o',:ver was required to surmount them. He had been
kill;;Wed on one occasion to stop the trains during the whole day at
the feot of the rise, in order to ascertain this very point, and
the engines had all gone over the plane without the
momentum, and without any increased power, The rrotko on the
South-Western line were, in his opinion, much more difficult
than those on the proposed Guilford and Portsmouth line. He had
laid out a line to Gosport from Bishopstoke, and also to Portsmouth,
but in that line he had never contemplated going to the town of
Haslemere, although he had intended to go so near as to give aC.
commodation to that town. In 1836 he had attended a meeting at
Portsmouth, and there a direct communication with London had
been sugzested to, and earnestly advocated by, the people of
Portsmouth, In which a connexion with Arundel was included, but
no scheme kad ever been projected which did not comprise
Chichester.
Mr. Locke being recalled, stated that the distance by way of
Brighton to Portsmouth f}om London was 95 miles; 501/2 miles
to Brighton fl-oin London.bridge; thence to Shoreham, 5 miles
5 chains; thence to Chichester, 28 miles ti chains; and thence tti
Portsmouth, 16 miles, making a few chains less than 95 miles.
The present line to Gosport was 88 miles long.
By Fareham it would be to Shoreham 84 miles ;
thence to Corham, 6 miles; and thence to Portsmouth, 3 miles;
making the whole distance about 93 miles. The distance to tlun.
gerford.bridge would be 1 mile and 6 furlongs further. He was
not aware whether there was any decided agreement between the
Brighton and the Chichester Company, though he had understood
that the Shoreham Company had leased their line for tan years.
To the inquiries of Mr. OSWALD, Mr. Locke stated that there
were to be two stations at Chichester—one for the Guildford line
and the other for the Shoreham line, both, however, communicating
by railway; and there was no reason why both stations should
not be amalgamated. The distance by the proposed line
from Hungerford was 76 miles, being 18 miles in favour of
that line. The whole of the earthworks and works of art without
land would cost, from Guildford to Chichester 476,0001., and from
Chichester to Portsmouth 180,000/., making together 656,0011.
for the whole. On the whole line there would be nihe side ellttinga
and fourteen spoll banks ; the former occupying about 31 acres,
and the latter 56 acres. Between Chichester and Portsmouth
there would be eight side" cuttings, which would occupy from 22 to
24 acres,

had improved his plan,and had laid the proposed line down as erOsci'ng
it. The terminus iToposed to be erected on the Mylor side, in the
event of the Admiralty not consenting to the construction of the
VAduct ,and cloclts, would run some distance into the creek on
an incline of i trto. rottld offer no obstacle to the
shipping, nor would it be liable to produce i:Ecidentr to those employed
in connexion with it. At Truro River, which they cross
by 5 a viaduct, taking the average tides, the distance across was 11
fireli: Re had never seen vessels " beat" up there. The height
of the arch froni cleat es high water was seventy feet, and at
low water eighty feet. The river at LESt•!Othiel would be crossed
by a bridge without arches. It might prevent getefl to some
small hottses in the vicinity, but if it were found objectionable to
cross the river of tfiq spot they would alter the course of the
line within the limits of dei•lationi and would not entail
much additional expense, possibly not ro7e than the
crossing of the river as laid down in Vit.: plan.
This alteration of the course of the line would cause a raditii of
geventeett chaiha. At Polbathie they would have a drawbridge
three hundred feet in length-,=the height at high water would be
four feet six inches. Some vessels came tip for whitestone, which
would have to be towed or warped. Cheviot and Tre'rol creeks
Would also be crossed by viaducts. At Torpoint they would not
interfere With hOte.,e property. The distance across the ferry was
about six hundred yards. Vesters in ordinary anchored there.
The filag.ship of the Admiralty Cortithl:islontr laid about a mile
below.

13y Lord SEYMoUR.—Sent corn at present from Wakefield to
Manciseetee by rail.
By the ctiAinmAN—Sent a larger quantity by the rail than by
canal.
Sir John Simpson, examined by Mr. KNowLes—Lived at York.
Was a director of the York and North Midland line. Was ex-
tensively engaged in the coasting and home trade in corn. Was
1101 acquainted with the n•ater communication between Goole
and WAketleld, and the line of the projected railway.
For bulky articles the water conveyance was, in his

opinion, better than the rail, but for small articles it was
not so good. He considered that corn was one of the former
articles, and he would prefer to send it by canal. The advantage
by this means was obtained of seeing the corn in bulk, which was
not the case by rail. If the railway was resorted to for the con-
veyance of corn the market would be entirely removed from
Wakefield to Goole. The canal he considered a cheaper mode of
Conveyance. The cost of wheat at present from Goole to Wake-
field by canal was, including charges, about 13d. per quarter.

_ .
Cromoternined by Mr. KNOWLES—BuIky goods were at pre-
sent carried on the canal at Id. a ton or somewhat less. Sent his
flour to Manchester and other places by rail. There was not more
than one-fifth of the business managed by rail. \Vasa large owner
of 'vessels, and was building more to accommodate the increased
traffic. r 1.14. York to Manchester the cost of flour by rail was Its.
per ton.

Mr. DENISON, a member of the Committee, said if the eXafffina-
lion Wetted te it attars on which the Admit-Pity had to decide, he
should object to the cotirse thich Mr. Rowe was pursuing.
Mr. RowE said he proposed to she* by the examination of
Captain Moorsom, that the bridge itself and the eleCtrical telegraph
ereuld be exposed to considerable danger, by ships getting their
Ateliers fettled In the chains of the floating bridge.
The Committee aSsetited, &AI the examination of Capt. Moorsom,
which the Committee had frequently Interrupted, on the ground
that Mr. Rowe was guilty of irregularity with relpS'tl to the topics
on which he sought to rest his testimony, was resumed. He said, the
present boat (which is a very Ingenious contrivance for the cori-
veyance of general traffic across the Hamoaze, being moved by
chains worked by a windlass) would be sufficient for the
purposes of the railway. Ve,sels dragging their anchors might
get them fouled in the chains, but lie had not heard of any serious
inconvenience resulting from them. The electrical telegraph would
be worked in an iron tube, which would be kept free from damp,
lying at the bottom of the water. The ordinary passage was effected
In six or seven minutes. When they arrived at the opposite
side, the arranging of the carriages would not occupy
more than a minute. The present boat would hold six
of the Great Western carriages. Thy wculd have stronger
chains if it were possible to obtain them. It had
hot been finally arranged whether the engine should be shipped or
not, because oh Se Impertant a point lie should not come to a deter-
mination until the very latest Itiotoent which might be allowed for
him to do so. It would not take any tlhie to disengage the
engine, as she would run on while the train advanced.
In I S4O he reported to the County Committee against carrying a
railway across that part of the Hamoaze. Since that time he hag
had a good deal of experience in that part of the country, and was
now in favour of it. If the South Devon Railway, which
had supported the proposed railway in every way, had not been in
existence, the whole features of the scheme would be changed. The
weight of the rails would be 56Ibs. The witness was then examined
as to the permanent way, the power and cost of the engines, the
electrical telegraph, and engine-houses, which merely bore out the
Cstitnate which he yesterday gave in evidence, and which appeared
at length in the Afternoon Edition of The Sun. There would be
40 engines, at a cast of 2,000/. each, and 40 stations on the line.
With respect to the Bodmin branch, they must construct the line
at the back of Lord Vivian's mansion at Glyn, at an impractl.
cable expense, and without answering the objects for which the
line was proposed. Other lines must be constructed, but there
were great obstacles to all in r,ome instances they would have to
make a tunnel beneath the town of Bodmin; other spots would
also present great difficulties, not only with respect to gradients,
but in expense.
The Committee then adjourned until to-morrow.

By the CHAIRMAN—The comparative difference of freight and
insurance between Yarmouth and Goole and Yarmouth and Hull
:Its very trifling—about Id. or 2d. a quarter on freight, and as Ad.
to Id. ud )nsurance only on Scotch vessels.
By Mr. HoME--The tonnage of the largest ♦essels that come
up to York was about 80 tons; vessels of 200 tons could come
up to Selby, passing the dangers of the Goole navigation; and saw a
vessel there above 200 tons register.
Tay IVIr, Buss, on the part of the landowners—York was not
principally supplied with coals from the West Riding. The time
now occupied in going from Selby to Leeds was from an hour to
an hour and a quarter, and the cost was 3s. The time table of the
tielby and Leeds, before they leased the line, was an hour, but this
was not regularly accomplished—he had been himself often dis-
appointed.
By Mr. lisowtris—From York to Leeds the time now occupied
was an hour and a quarter. The fare of the first-class was 2d
per mile, and on the Selby and Leeds about the same. Their
third-class carriages were very commodious and covered in.
When he said that Goole could not compete with Hull, it was
only with reference to vessels of a large size. It would be an in-
ducement for vessels to come to Goole that they could have a cargo
of coals back.

Mr. Edward Ellice examined by Mr. PICKERING—Lived at
Leicester; was an agent there for the-scleof lime. In 1840 the
amount sold was 5,092 lons. Thegreater part of this was used fur
agricultural purposes. The Crich lime was used almost entirely
for these purposes, The price at the works was 6s. to Cs. 6d. per
ton. The present sate paid per railway from Crich to Penistone
was Id. Per ten per mile.

To Mr. GuaNct —Mr. Locke replied that there was an arrange-
ment between the Government and the South-Western Company
for the electric telegraph to Portsmouth for ten years, for which
they were to pay 1,5001. a year. The London end of the tele-
graph was to be at the Admiralty, and there would be a great ad-
vantage by the orophsed line In avoiding the water at Gosport.
To the lutpilries of Mr. OssvaLn Mr. Locke replied that it was
intended to cross four turnpike levels at a level, near two of which
there would be stations.
Mr. Long, formerly a resident at Portstnouth, and who, since
that time had held an appointment as police magistrate in
Van Dieman's Land—He had always taken a great interest
in the railway communication with Portsmouth ; indeed every
tiitisltion for a public meeting and every resolution had been
drawn up by him. In 12136 the secretary and solicitor of the
Southampton line had called upon him with a view to establish a
communication with their line, but at that time, the desire of the
inhabitants was for a line eastward; but he now thought that the
proposed Guilford line was the best for the business transactions of
Portsmouth. In his opinion the proposed line was at least
40,000/. a year better than the two other lines, and there was, he felt
assured—no feeling ofjealousy at all of the South-Western Company,
and though he did not now reside at Portsmouth he took the same
interest in the town as before.
Mr. Horne was recalled, and put in a comparative table of the

Cross.examined by Mr. HONE—The Crich was a mountain lime,
the other lime refereed to was a magnesian lime. Sold it to
farmers,

Edward Ward, Esq., examined by Mr. KNOWLES— Was a ma-
gistrate, residing near Selby. Had an extensive coal proporty.
Very few ships get to Selby, as compared with Goole, in con-
sequence of the difficulty of the navigation. Shipped 38,500 tons of
coals during the last five years, and was convinced if he had had the
advantages of the rail, he could have shipped a great deal more.
The Leeds and Selby Railway passed for eight miles over a bed of
coals. The price of the best quality of coals at the pit's mouth was
ss. sd. per ton, and if the railway were made, the price of coals at
Goole would be the same as at York. Could not send the coals
to Hull, as there was no dock communication there with the
Humber. The charge from all the pits to York was 4d. per ton.
The proposed Wakefield and Goole line would be of no use what-
ever to the coal-pits about Selby and that district. Had lime
quarries in that neighbourhood also; sold lime at the works for
7s. per ton.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—Sent more building lime at
present to Manchester than agricultural. The London and York
line and two other proposed lines (if any one of them were carried)
would by a junction with the Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole
lines, give all the facilities of conveyance which the proposed
Brayton and Goole line promised.
Cross.examined by Mr. Buss—Could not say how long it would
ft,ko to work out his pits. He could not say whether they would
be done
in a year. Sold his coals at Selby for 7s. 2d., and at York
at 63. Bd. There was no important town on the proposed line—it
an:agricultural country which was not very denaely
passed through
populated. Knew the Hon. Mr. Petre's estate. The Leeds and
Selby and four other
p7ojected railways were to go through it, and
would completel cut it IC' The proposed line was one of them.
y
Mr. Michael Bentley, exai.
,fined by Mr. PICKERING—Was a lime
o
btirner. Had nine vessels env..yed with Goole in the coasting
^ejected Wakefield, Pontefract,

fares charged by the Birmingham, the South-Eastern, and the South
Western Companies, from which it appeared that the proposed
charge was the same, or less, than those charged by other companies.
The maximum charges for passengers were intended to be 3d.,
2d., and Id. per mile for first, second, and third-class passengers.
Mr. GURNEY then put in the agreement for the lease of the
Guildford and Woking line, and also proposed clauses for securing
the working of the line to Portsmouth as efficiently as it was now
worked to Southampton.
This closed the case for the promoters.
Mr. RAWLINSON then stated that he and Mr. Sergeant Talfourd
had agreed to amalgamate their cases, and proposed that the latter
Learned Counsel should address the Committee in opening, and he
himself, if they thought proper, after the examination of their
witnesses.
This being agreed to,
Mr. Sergeant fALFOURD proceeded to address the Committee on
behalf of the inhabitants of Portsmouth. He said that putting out
of the question that important connexion of the town with the
great naval power of the country, the whole of the population of
the district from Chichester to Portsmouth, if taken within seven
miles of the line, there was little in excess over that of the town
itself, and if it was taken within five miles the disproportion in
the numbers was still less, and he therefore thought the
feelings of the people of Portsmouth were entitled
to great consideration. Now, in the course of his opening, Mr.
Cockburn had made the admission that the feeling of the people
of Portsmouth was decidedly in favour of the atmospheric line, and
against the Guildford line. Mr. Casher, the Mayor, had admitted
that on the 7th of the present month he had presided over a meet-
ing both very numerous and highly respectable, at which not more
than fifty hands had been held up in favour of the line of the
South- Western Company. From this meeting a petition
had emanated, which, in the course of four days,
had been signed by upwards of nine thousand persons.

trade. Was acquainted with the P.
and Goole line. It Would not benefit Is..q°LbngleY. Lime could be
sent at present for Is. (At per ton by can between Knottingley
.
A
and Goole. Water was a mtith preferable uliotlr. of conveyance to
rail. The dues in Selby canal were about 15". for' cargo of 50 or
60 tons, and the cost altogether to Goole would be at'iQPt 18s. Wet
injured lime very much. A great quantity of this lime went east.
ward to Lincolnshire, &c., for agricultural purposes.
The Speaker having been announced to be at prayers, the C..'ra-
mittee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND YORK LEND.
GENERAL TRAFFIC EVIDENCE.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday),
in about twenty minutes the parties were readmitted, when

The CHAIRMAN said he had been instructed by the Committee to
state that they could not assent to the proposition of the opposing
counsel; but, considering the great importance of this case, the
Committee would have no objection to adjourn now until half-past
eleven to-morrow, provided the opposing counsel could assure the
Committee that they had not had sufficient time to examine the
traffic tables, and the Committee would sit until five o'clock to.
morrow.

With respect to the fictitious signatures attached to that petition
he should show that they were put to it in several instances as a
mere joke, and in one case the name of the Earl of Dalhousie had
been signed by the clerk of Mr. Gauntlett, who had himself ap.
peared as a witness to vitiate that petition, and in the presence of
that gentleman's son. This he adduced not to throw any stigma
on the promoters of the Bill, but to show how in a large place like
Portsmouth such irregularities a,..; these would easily be fallen into,
but if he stood there merely as the representative of
the five respectable individuals who were appointed by that
meeting, and getting the petition altogethvs aside, still the reeling.
of the people were entitled to respect. With regard to the feeling
of jealousy between the towns of Southampton and Portsmouth,
it was quite natural. Considering the position of the two towns,
arid the Isle of Wight, and the increase of importance of South-
ampton, this was quite natural, and when the inhabitants of Ports-
mouth saw that the whole of the traffic was under the direction of
people who, from their connexion with the South-Western line and
the place to which it ran, naturally feit a great interest in tl.at place,
would, in all probability, give a preference where their interests
were so largely cone :med. It was, therefore, to say the least, but
little likely that Portsmouth would receive its due share of consi.•
deration. Sufficient evidence had been adduced to show that the
people of Portsmouth had always desired a line directly to London.
And what he would ask, therefore, was, not a preference for the
atmospheric line, but that the Committee would pause before they
decided. It was perfectly evident that if this line was
made. another could not be hoped for ; for if this was
once achieved, the capital once invested, no change
could possibly be expected, and the people of Portsmouth
would be handed over in perpetuity to the South-Western Com-
pany, who would unquestionably obtain a completely despotic
power over the interests of the 60,000 persons who constituted the
population of Portsmouth and Pcrtsea. This, therefore, was no
case of common monopoly, but it was an entire despotism over an

Mr. WEBSTER said he felt he only echoed the sentiments of his
Learned Friends with him when he said that he looked upon those
tolls to be of such vast importance, that he would feel exceedingly
obliged to the Committee for adopting this course.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE said, that as the Committee had come
to this resolution, he would now propose that the engineering
evidence should be entered upon. The reason he mad this pro-
position was in order to save time, the importance of which to the
promoters of the London and York line would be best understood
when he stated that these expenses amounted to something like
3,000/. a day.
Mr. WEBSTER, on behalf of the Cambridge and Lincoln line, said
he believed it would be better for him to meet the traffic evidence
by contra evidence, than by cross_examining the witnesses.
The Committee then consulted for a short time, after which
The CHAIRMAN said the Committee would have no objection to
adopting the course suggested by the Learned Sergeant; but they
would take up the traffic cross-examination to-morrow morning.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE said he hoped that, once the engineer.
ing evidence was entered upon, it should be concluded before the
traffic cross-examination should be entered upon; for if he were
now to call Mr. Cubist, and that gentleman was to be cross-
examined, and then the engineering evidence to be broken in upon,
great inconvenience and confusion would be the result.
The opposing Counsel said they would be very glad that the
engineering evidence should be concluded first.
The CHAIRMAN said he had been told that the engineering evi-
dence would occupy a week ; however, they would now proceed
with it.

Mr. Barff was then recalled, and deposed that upwards of
14,000 tons of wool would pass on the London and York line in a
year.

After one or two unimportant questions,

THE ENOINEERINU EViIiENCZ

important port, which, notwithstanding their utmost energy, they
could never throw off. Then, with respect to the clauses which
were proposed to secure the interest of the people of
Portsmouth, they all knew, from the experience and the
incidents in the courts of law, that this was no sufficient defence,
as was shown in the case of Mr. Parker and the Great Western
Railway, in which he had been engaged. That Company had
thought proper to mark out Mr. Parker as the object of theirjea-
lousy, and had charged him an extra sum for his packages over the
amount charged to their pet contractors, Messrs. Chaplin and
Horne; had refused to allow him to put several parcels together;

or to deliver to his own customers. It was true, Mr. Parker had
succeeded in defeating the Company, partly through his (Mr. Ser-
geant TalfouriPs) instrumentality, but it was not every person
that possessed the gallantry of Mr. Parker, and it was well
known that the leading men in public companies brought all their
intellect and experience to bear on the interests of the property
with which they were connected, and left all their sympathies
behind them. He did not mean to throw out anything dispa-
raging either against Mr. Brunel, the engineer, or against his own
late colleague, the Chairman, both of whom were men of the
highest character.

Mr. GURNEY—The Great Western Company are not repre.
sented here.

Mr. Sergeant TM-EC/VIM—Nor are they misrepresented, the
termini of this line was at London at one end and at Ports-
mouth at the other. In the one instance at a place Where all
interest was lost in the general mass, but at the other it was alto.
gcther of vital import. By the proposed line the rates both of car.
riage and of passenger traffic would be Mbell higher than by the
atmospheric principle. Now that principle was under active expe-
riment, and he trusted the time would shortly arrive when it
would be universally adopted. It would both be cheaper and
more expeditious than the locomotive principle. Even Mr.
Carter had stated that if the time was to be less, and the
expense no more, he would prefer the atmospheric prin-
ciple—and that that principle was no illusion, was
evident from the fact of money and ability having been already
extensively pledged to it. And at any rate, whatever be the
merits of the two principles, the Portsmouth people said that so
great was their jealousy of the South-Western Company that they
would endure all the inconveniences which they now experienced,
and wait a little longer, rather than submit themselves and their
children to a monopoly which it would, if this Guildford line Were
now granted, be in all future time utterly impost.ble to break
through. Moreover, there was the coast line, which would still give
as the advantages to Chichester of a London communication with
Portsmouth, and also a connexion with Chatham and the other
great areenals of the country. They would prefer that line if they
could not get the atmospheric, but would rather, for this session,
that things should remain as they are than that this Bill should pass,
Mr. G. Sprague was then called, and stated that he hod signed
the petition at Hyde-park-corner, in Portsmouth, and testified that
several of the fictitious signatures attached tO the petition had been
put to it through this instrumentality of Mr. Gauntlett's clerk, and
it was his impression that many of the signatures were not genuine.
To the inquiries of Mr. MoNewrox MILNES, the witnesses stated
that ten out of twelve of the people of Portsmouth were in favour
of the atmospheric. Itis reasons for preferring the atmospheric line
was, in the first place, the atmospheric company promised them
three third-class trains should run during the day ; secondly, that
the fares would be lower; and, thirdly, that be believed the railway
would be safer. If the atmospheric line were not obtained he
believed the Portsmouth people would prefer the coast line.
Mr. Erasmus Jackson, a banker at Portsmouth, and now cham-
berlain of the borough, who hail taken an active part in all that
had passed, during the last ten years, with respect to a railway to
the town, stated that the feeling of the inhabitants was decidedly
in favour of the atmospheric line. He had been chairman of a
deputation, in 1838, which hail had two communications with the
Directors of the South-Western Railway, who had expressed
their inability or disinclination, or both, to give any better line
to Portsmouth than the branch to Gosport, and their ex-
pectation of getting the whole of the trade of Portsmouth and
Portsea, through Gosport, and certainly he had never heard of the
Guildford line until some time after the atmospheric line hid been
projected and published. The witness also bore testimony to the
feeling expressed at the two meetings of the inhabitants, and stated
his opinion that the London-bridge terminus, which was that of
the atmospheric line, would be more convenient to the inhabitants
of Portsmouth than the one at Vauxhall. The atmospheric termi.
nos at Portsmouth was also better than that of the other line, both
for High-street and the Steam-packet Quay.
The cross-examination of Mr.GuaNcy, obtained a conformation
of this evidence, but further that the inhabitants had thrown out
a Bill on its second reading, the object of which was to make a line
to Portsmouth by the South-Western Company.
To the inquiries of Lord CLIN e, Mr. Jackson stated, that
the atmospheric terminus would by a little longer line of
rail be enabled to communicate with the dockyard.
And to the inquiries of the CHAIRMAN and Mr. OswAtn, he said
that, in his opinion, the atmospheric line would be decidedly the
best, and this opinion was based on the contiguity of the Isle of
Wight, and the attraction of the traffic through the town.
The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP N.
CORNWALL RAILVITA.Y.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday).
Captain sloorsom said the viaduct would be 500 feet in length.
He could not say whether the Admiralty had given their assent or
not to the construction of the viaduct. In 1840 he projected a
line which 'multi have avoided Penryn Creek, but subsequently he

11 S- UN, LONDON, SATITR DA Y EVENING, MAY 31, 1845.

BEDFORD STATION.

Fencing
Earth and Vorks
Bridges, Viaducts, &c.
Contingencies

Total
Permanent Ways
Station

Works
Land compensation

Grand total.