The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-26 00:00:00

IRISH CHARITABLE BEQUESTS BILL.

Mr. SHELL said, he had a question to ask, the purport of
which had previously been asked by arother Hon. Member in
that House. He wanted to know if her Majesty's Government
intended to make any alteration next session of Parliament in
the Charitable Bequests ?
Sir J. GRAHAM answered thaithern was an intention on
the part of her Majesty's Government to effect an alteration.
There were three points in which it was proposed to make
alterations. The first poitit was respecting the doctrine and
discipline of the Roman Catholic Church. As the law stood,
in any dispute arising respecting the title of bequests left to
Roman Catholic priests, it was referred to the Commissioners
under the Bill. Now this was contrary to the canons of the
Church. According to the canons of the Church, ail such
matters were to he referred to the diocesan. This point was
one he proposed to alter. The second point had reference to
monastic institutions. The Bill of last session was not intended
to affect, directly or indirectly, those institutions, but as there
had been some doubts entertained on this head, it was intended
to remove those doubts in the amendments he intended to
propose by a declaratory clause. There was one other point
as to which it was intended to vary the Act of last session. By
that Act the law of mortmain was extended to Ireland, where
it operated with more weight than it ever did in this country,
so that it was impossible for a party to leave any quantity of
land, however small, for the site of a chapel, glebe house, or
hospital. The Government proposed to relax this provision so
as to allow land not exceeding five acres, for instance, to be
left for such purpose. lie hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman
would think this answer quite explicit.—( Hear, bear.)
MR. ROLLS.

Captain FITZ UAURICE asked a question, why it was Mr.
Rolls had been prevented from having any friends attend-
ing on him in his examination, and why it was the short- hand
writer had been excluded ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
aware that the short-hand writer had been excluded, but he
would inquire, and see that proper arrangements were made
for taking the minutes of the evidence. As the examination
was private, he did not see that any friends of Mr. Sholls had
a claim to he admitted.

THE FREE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
On the motion for the House to go into a Committee of
Supply,
Mr. P. M. STEWART rose to call the attention of the
House to the petition of Patrick Macfarlan, Moderator of
the General Assembly of the Free Church of Scotland
(presented 24th June), complaining of the refusal
of sites to congregations of that church. The Honour-
able Gentleman then read the petition, which stated that
about two years ago one-third of the inhabitants of Scotland
separated from the Established Church, and organised them-
selves into the religions community termed the " Free Church
of Scotland." Upwards of 470 ministers seceded at that time,
and the number had since been increased to 620. The subscrip-
tions to a general fund for the erection of churches and the
endowment of schools amounted to 726,000/., and of that sum
320,0001. had been already expended in the building of
churches. The Hon. Gentleman then read several communi-
cations from various parts of Scotland, describing the hardship
and suffering of the people of the Free Church compelled to
worship in tents by the road-side, exposed to the incle-
mently of the weather. He was sure that he was
doing no more than justice to the landed proprietors
of those districts when he said that they could not know
what was being done on their estates. The House had an in-
stance of the effects to be produced by such a system of perse-
cution in the very parish in which the building was situated?
There never was greater immorality, even in this great metro-
polis,
than prevailed in the very precincts of the House. The
population of parishes of St. Margaret's and St.
John's was. were returned as belonging
6,000 as Dissenters, making,
in 56 ,tohooe
,unofitwedhich
7,900
to the Established Church, and
religion.—( Hear, hear.)
in all, but 13,000 of any professed _ _
But, even of this small number, there were 5,00 y persons The
eause
with-
out any means of religious worship or instruction.
the
of that destitution was the insertion of a clause in all
leases prohibiting the building of any school-house or chapel
for Dissenters. But there was no clause to prevent the em-
ployment of the houses on the collegiate estate for immoral
purposes._( Hear, hear.) There were 130 houses of that
character upon this estate of the Church. The Hon. Member
then read extracts from a correspondence between the Earl
D'Aubeney and Dr. Chalmers,. whichthe Lord said
in Noble that a foreigner e t. '
of things unkno c ering Scotland would be struck by a state
He the . unknown to the most despotic State in
n continued by . • Europe.
have tres , ...sling he regretted being obliged to
ti so n t
he had no doubt that the he Mention of the House ; but
induce the House to afforrdessult this discussion would be to
creatures other than that I.Nhierleffectual relief to those poor
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had heardpplied.
great attention, and he could assurethe Hon. Member with
sincerely deplored the events to which e
him that he deeply and
Bat he feared that the subject w had drawn.attention.
Rae one which • • ) while it had

been operated on by public opinion, was one also upon which
it would scarcely be possible to legislate. It should be remem-
bered that the Episcopalian form of religion prevailed in Scot-
land ; but even that fact should be no reason why the meanest
peasant in the country should not have the same protection
from the law as the largest landed proprietor. He admitted
that the people whose complaint the Hon. Member had stated,
had a just and irresistible claim for toleration in their
form of worship, and that they should have suitable places af-
forded them as sites on which to build their places of
public worship.—(Hear.) But while he would be anxious
to see this object carried out, on the other hand
he would hope that one temple of worship should notbe placed
in a position that might be regarded as one of offensive rivalry
with other churches. He could state instances where a
Noble Friend of his, and other Noble Lords, had been very
liberal in granting sites on their estates for those places of
worship; he hoped their examples would be followed by many
others. But while he again should express his regret that it
was not possible to legislate on this subject, yet he did hope
that this discussion would, as the Hon. Member opposite had
said, operate beneficially, and that so useful an example would
be most extensively followed in Scotland.
Mr. HAWES said he deeply regretted that he should differ
from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and express his fear that
the hopes he entertained would never be realised ; for it had
been seen that while sites were liberally granted for
the erection of places for Roman Catholic worship—those for
the Dissenters were denied. He had also received petitions on
this subject, and their prayer fully established the fact that
there were many instances in that country also of the forget-
fulness by the landlords of the maxim that property had its
duties as well as its rights. The Honourable Member con-
cluded by saying he cordially concurred in the motion of his
Honourable Friend.
Mr. CARDWELL defended the conduct of the landlords
who had • been alluded to, and contended that their acts had
not been dictated by feelings of religious intolerance.
Mr. HUME felt assured that the Government would do all
it could to put an end to religious intolerance of this descrip-
tion in Scotland.

Mr. SHEIL was sorry to see Scotland assuming a position
which betrayed a state of things similar to that existing in his
own country. The Seceders were zapidly increasing in Scotland,
and surely it was the duty of the Government to prevent that.
If the Government deemed it incumbent to grant a regium
donum to Ireland, surely it would be an anomalous state of
things to refuse it to Scotland, or to grant it when it would be
too late.—( Hear, hear.) He knew it would be presumptuous
of him to say anything upon this subject ; but from all he had
heard and read in reference to it, he did think that though the
Hon. Baronet had said that legislation would be impossible as a
remedy, because a man could not be forced to give a part of his
estate, yet it would be very easy for the Government to provide
a fund for the purpose.
Mr. PRINGLE was of opinion that many of those disputes
existing in Scotland between landlord and tenant had been the
result of bad advice. There never would have been any mis-
understanding but for untimely and injudicious interference.
He would caution the House against giving too much credit
to ex parte statements which were often gross exaggerations.
He trusted that by forbearance and kindness harmony would
yet be restored to the Church of Scotland.
Mr. HINDLEY said he very much rejoiced-at the separation
which had occurred in the Church of Scotland. It had excited
a wholesome spirit of religions zeal, and was attended with the
best effects. The sum of 776,0001. had been collected by the
Free Church of Scotland, of which 320,0001. had been em-
ployed in the erection of churches. He thought it right to
divest religion as much as possible of mere pecuniary consider-
ations, and objected to making the clergy the mere tenants
of the State, so that the great lookout was, not the
promotion of the interests of religion, but to obtain
a good benefice. He regretted the conduct of many noblemen
and landed proprietors towards the members of the Free
Church. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had defended the
Duke of Buccleuch, but he thought the conduct of that noble-
man was not dictated in the true spirit of Christianity, and
that he might have acted more nobly than by refusing a site
for a Free Church chapel, because some of the supporters of it
had abused him. When that Noble Duke saw that many of
his own tenants were anxious to obtain a place of worship, he
should have shown them that he was for freedom of conscience,
and evinced a desire to see them worship their Creator accord-
ing to their religious belief, by selling the land to them. When
the Earl of Cawdor -was applied to for a site, he refused any
other than one on some waste lands, and provided that the
chapel should be built of wood, to be removed upon three
months' notice. Surely such conduct as this was rather calcu-
lated to exasperate than restore harmony in Scotland. .
After a few words from Mr P. BORTHWICK and Mr. P.
M. STEWART the subject dropped.
Mr. EWART then gave notice that he would postpone the
following motion until Monday next. I. That a statement be
made, on the part of the Government, of the condition and
prospects of such educational establishments as are supported
wholly or partially by a vote of this House. 2. That it is ex-
pedient that the formation of public libraries, freely opened to
the public, be encouraged. 3. That it is expedient that schools
for the training of masters be more extensively promoted.
4. That it is expedient that appointments to the subordinate
offices of Government be made (as far as possible) by ex-
amination of the merits of the candidates for such offices.
LIGHT GOLD.

Mr. HUME then, in pursuance of notice he had given, said
he wished to call the attention of the House to the loss to the
puhlie by light. sovereigns ; and that some offices should be
appointed by the Government to receive light gold at the in-
trinsic value, according to the number of grains deficient
in the average weight., and not allow the loss of six-
pence, m')re or less, to the holder of the coin, accord-
ing to the will of the person who is to receive the coin.
No man in Scotland or Ireland lost a penny by gold, and it
was not fair that the people of England should be made to
suffer. It was nothing less than a system of plunder upon the
working classes. It was owing to the neglect of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer that such a thing took place, and he
ought to be called to account for it. He maintained that the
Government, in the case of light gold, ought to bear the loss.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving the resolution.

Mr. SPOONER seconded the motion. He considered the
Hon. Member had referred to the working classes, but there
was another important class that suffered—the small tradesmen
and shopkeepers. They were obliged, in the course of busi-
ness, to take light sovereigns as full weight, and when they
par' ed with them at the Bank, or to the small dealers, they were
obliged to lose at least fourpence in every sovereign. With the
losses and inconveniences attending on these light sovereigns,
the value was often reduced tenpence or a shilling. lie cm-
. sidcred the Government ought to be made to bear
the loss. There ought to be places in every town,
regularly appointed,- where gold could always be changed
at its intrinsic value. But this was only a small part
of the question. The question was one of the widest
ch,rec!er, and involved the whole question of the cur-
rency. He was sorry that the two Bight Hon. Baronets con-
nected with the Government were not present, as the Right
Hen. Baronet at the head of the Government, on a previous
cceasion, in reference to a book published in Birmingham on
the currency, said he believed there were only two men in Bir-
mingham that could write so much nonsense. Now he ( Mr.
Spooner) adopted all the leading views of that book, and was
prepa-ed to maintain them against that Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He would, however, only call their attention to a few
facts, illustrative of what had been called so much nonsense.
In 1797 a measure was passed, which the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary of the Home Department had called a fatal
measure. That measure was the act of Mr. Pitt, and by its ope-
ration they were enabled to raise means to carry on the great
war subsequent to the French Revolution, supporting the Bri-
tish arms in all their efforts, till their standard was planted on
the walls of Paris, after the battle of Waterloo. The policy
of that measure had been denounced by a disciple of Mr. Pitt,
though there was a very scarce book, which supported the
principle of that measure in a very able manner, and the argu-
ments of which ought to be in the hands of every Hon. Mem-
ber. It was entitled " Graham's Corn and Currency
( Laughter )—a book which was as plentiful as need be one day,
hut all on a sudden disappeared, no one knew why, until at
last it was extremely difficult to obtain a copy at all. That
measure, the act of Mr. Pitt, led to an extensive issue of paper
money, with:eit which it would have been impossible to carry
out the gigantic operations of the country at that time. The
Hon. :Member then referred to the evils which had arisen from
1797 up to 1819—the very year when Sir Robert Peel's, then
M-. Peel's, famous Bank-note Restriction Bill was passed—in
suddenly restricting the paper currency. The measure—that
of 1319—was really to be called a fatal measure, and one that
had been most ruinous in i's operations. He was not one of
those who thought it was not right to change the character of the
coin ; but by doing so, when they took the single standard of
gold, they had inflicted a heavy penalty on the country. In
addition to this, they went on to say that though the landlords
might change their estates, they at the same time were doing an
injustice to all parties by preventing the possibility of ever
returning to the true principles on which this country ought to
be governed. He held in his hand the ablest book that had
ever been written on the subject ; and in that book these prin-
ciples were laid down. In 1819 this Bill was passed, in 1820
the pressure was felt, in 1821 it began to be insupportable, and
in 1822 Lord Castlereagh came down to the House, and stated
that it was impossible to return to cash payments. Then came
the evanescent prosperity of 1524, and after that, on the in-
' fliction of the weight again, the terrible reflux of 1825. Well
did he remember the Chancellor of the Exchequer coming
down to the House in 11524, and stating, in the most
glowing picture that had ever been drawn in that House of the
prosperity of the country, and asserting that it was founded on a
rock. What took place? In the spring following the same
Right Hon. Gentleman came down to the House, and in the
most doleful strains complained that it had all passed away.
• Again the same thing occurred in 1828—prices had risen, a
I state of prosperity had returned, the cornaletion of the mea-
sure took place. Again the gold left the,ountry, and then
through a long period came the struggle again : prices fell to
the level of the Continent, the gold returned, and there was
again a partial return to prosperity. The gold left again, and
again distress ensued. The- same course had been going on
ever since, and be warned the landed gentry, on the authority
of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham), that either the
rents must be conformed to that of the Continent, or the
standard must be conformed to the rate of rents. At the
standard of 31. 17s. 101,4 d., prosperity had never been long
continued in agriculture, manufactures, and commerce toge-
ther. When the reflux took place commerce took the lead,
then manufactures, then agriculture ; but the prosperity of
agriculture being inconsistent with low prices, the gold im-
mediately left the country, and a panic ensued. This would
be, and must be, the consequence of attempting to carry on
this struggle. A new race would be called into ex-
istence, by the great profits of the capitalist. Old
forms would disappear, new ones would arise, ,and a complete
revolution in the value of property would take place, and he
warned the Right Hon. Baronet that if the system succeeded,
it would be productive of evil at the best, and if it failed, it
would bring on such a panic as never occurred before. Im-
' perfect as his views were, they were honestly felt, and were
formed after a careful consideration of the subject since 1810.
He would not, however, take up their time any longer, but
conclude by seconding the motion.
The CHANCELLLOR of the EXCHEQUER confessed
that he had not formed the idea when he came down to the
House that the subject would run over such an extensive range
as it had done under the Gentleman who last addressed the House,
embracing, as it did, a period of nearly half a century. He
would not, however, travel beyond the motion before the House.
A proclamation was made in 1843, calling in the light sove-
reigns. The Honourable Gentleman must be aware that
since 1816, no notice whatever had been taken of the depre-
ciation of the light sovereigns, and so great at length had be-
come the clamour in consequence of this evil, that a memorial
was signed by all the bankers and principal men of the kingdom,
calling upon the Government to redress the grievance. At
the moment the change took place, in compliance with that
application, preparations to a large extent were made in the
Mint to supply the amount of coin that would be required.
With regard to the poor, he denied that no measures were
taken to guard against the loss they sustained, but be would say
that no measures they could adopt would remedy the evil. It was
a hardship he admitted, but it was impossible to apply a remedy
where frauds were so easily effected. He should be very glad
to give an opportunity of weighing light sovereigns in every
town in the kingdom, but, when it was recollected that no less
than 500,000 sovereigns were annually depreciated from tear
and wear, he said that the complexity of the machinery requi-
site td carry such a proposition into effect, was a sufficient argu-
ment against its adoption. The Post.office accepted every
light sovereign, subject to the deduction of 3d. each. He
trusted, in conclusion,That the same occurrence which happened
in 1842 would never happen again, and that every future Go-
vernment would take care to give notice that such sovereigns
were not a legal tender.
Mr. WILLIAMS never expected that any one would have
risen in that goose to give tlito another dusertetion on the

Birmingham system of currency. He would not now follow
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Spooner) through the arguments
which he brought forward, but confine himself to the subject
before the House. With respect to the difficulty pointed
out by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, of finding persons in the various towns of the kingdom
to undertake the business of weighing sovereigns deficient in
weight, he considered it was totally unfounded, for any banker
in those towns, or the persons to whom the taxes were paid in
the district, would, for a small consideration, perform such a
duty. The loss on each sovereign on an average was 234 d, now
the loss to the public on the present arrangement was 6d., and
sometimes* ls., and it was net unusual to find sovereigns of
full weight being rejected unless the redaction was submitted
to. After the Ist of January, 1841, sovereigns were sold as
bullion, and only 31. 16s. 6%d. being given per ounce, 41%d.
was lost upon every ounce o the 3,000,000 sovereigns then
called in, and something was necessary to prevent the recur-
renee or continuance of so serious an inconvenience.
Sir ROBERT PEEL regretted very much that he had not
been present during the commencement of the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, not from curio-
sity, but interest in everything that fell from such a talented
Gentleman. It was a pity that he had not given notice of his
intention to second the motion of the Member for Montrose, as
Honourable Gentlemen would have then been aware of the
prospect of an amusing disquisition on the Birmingham system.
However, from thelfew audibly urged arguments of the Hon.
Member, he could say that he (Mr. Spooner) had proved him-
self a worthy representative of the opinions of Birmingham.—
( Laughter.) But the Honourable Member had assumed a
rather inconsistent position in the course of his latter observa-
tions. He had traced the whole question and course of the
currency, from the monetary transactions in 1797 to the
final change in 1844, and had said that in the• year
1822 the greatest distress prevailed, at which period
the Marquis of Londonderry proposed an extension of the
currency. The prosperity that followed this change was,
they were told, temporary and delusive, and had been followed
by a ruinous depression in the year 1825, caused by the change
in the value of the currency, arising from the large issue of paper.
But it would have been supposed that If the Hon. Member at-
tributed the distress at that period to this unlimited issue of
paper, he would have concluded that a still greater crisis
would have ensued from the adoption of a system which would
cause the issue of inconvertible paper. As to the authority of
Mr. Alison, whom his Hon. Friend considered a paragon of
philosophers, he would quote one sentence from that authority,
to show what credit should be given to his views, and he
thought that pamphleteer and his Honourable Friend the
Member for Birmingham would make a fair couple—
Castor and Pollux—in the expression of their unique
opinions.—(Loud laughter.) Mr. Alison, after intro-
ducing a few curious original apothems, advised that paper
should be paid in gold, according to the standard value of the
metal, so that notes issued at the rate of 3/. 16s. 10d. per
oz. might afterwards receive payment at the rate of 61. or 71.
per or t And when forsooth the coin ran up to the value of
101. per oz., which under such a system it very speedily would,
the banker need not pay in gold, and of course he would only
have to depreciate the value of paper, and raise that of gold, to
render himself virtually irresponsible.—( Loud laughter.)
Really such arguments were absurd, and he could scarcely de-
scribe his surprise at hearing the Hon. Member subscribe to
such opinions. As he said before, he hoped the Hon. Mem-
ber would, on another occasion give notice, of his intention to
speak, and he for one would like to be present and listento him.
Mr. J. STEWART saitl he trusted the present debate
would lead to some efficient and satisfactory change in the
arrangements for specifically correcting the monetary system.
Mr. NEWDEGATE was rejoiced that the attention of the
House had been called to the state of the currency. The
effects of a metallic currency were every day felt more and
more stringently. There had been spread abroad so strong a
feeling in favour of Sir Robert Peel's currency policy 'that it
was looked upon as a sort of treason to impeach it. But the
fact could not be denied, that it was impossible to go on
paying the interest of the national debt in the present cur-
rency, If free trade principles were to be carried out with
the present monetary system the greatest evils must be ex.
pected. He had not intended to trespass so long upon the
House this evening, but he would take an opportunity next
session of bringing the attention of Parliament to the subject.—
( Hear, hear.) The effect of the present law was to give a pre-
mium to the money lender at the expense of the rest of the
community.
Mr. MUNTZ said that he could not understand how his
Hon. Colleague could go the length he had done, of abolishing
all metallic payments. He did not think that his Hon. Friend
had shown his usual discretion in bringing forward a currency
debate on this question. He thought that currency had
nothing at all to do with it. He wished that the standard should
be fixed in silver. He had himself often seen women with
children in their arms unable to get food, in consequence of
not being able to get change for their gold. He thought that
the object of the motion was a very proper one. He thought
it much better that they should have 11. notes than that they
should be rubbing sovereigns together to the loss of the poor,
who would lose 6d. in consequence of their beinz light. He
hoped the Government would well consider the matter, and
introduce some measure which would enable the poor to avoid
this loss.

After a few words from Sir W. CLAY,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 64
Majority against the motion
Mr. SPOONED said he did not intend to speak in favour
of any remedy for the present difficulty ; but he did say he was
still of the same opinion he before expressed upon the question.