The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-27 00:00:00

examine
irtnyufrouroowreaflyse would take upon them to
farmer had less money to spend, he must reduce
establishment,iehthergwhe and put the result of that
his expellees in every direction, and some of examination on paper, would receive full credit from the public.
the reduction must fall ' upon the labourer. Thus all useful information wotuollt 3 f
td
s. wtiit,irtuft
geeli the ha r i having,; h, it theyhe
dt
took
e-
It was under these appalling circumstances,
principle understoodoilr. Owen as a sort of panacea for the dis-
tress- which at the present moment! was so generally felt and so
man, (M r. Scar le tt) had introduced a Bill much to be deplored..:,
to stultify that generous system of legislation Dr. LUSHES GTON considerea the system of Mr. Owen
as one of the most visionary and impracticable he had ever heard
On which this country had sa long acted, to de- or read of. But the secret of Mr. Owen's success was owing to
prive thousands of the means of subsistence, and the direct influence which he had over those persons-whose-ne-
cessities obliged them to bend to his syStem. No man could
to.make them vagrants, if thertehad been a clause
believe that a certain portion of land being given to an indivi-
to deprive them even of that resource. Mr. dual would give him at the sam.eittime thedptowg andec tchaetiianad(!f-
citinento
ssaurpsyor ti t
couldhimself.
Owen proposed a more humane plan for the im-
be donet regard to
Mr. Owen; and
proiernent of the Poor Laws. His plan was ex.! - again, as to the payment of interest on the capital expended;
posed to.much prejudice, of which all. inventors surely they werepot now so many years smdying political 'eco-
had to stand the brunt, till it was dissipated. ,by nomy as to render it necessary to apply to Mr. Owen for infor-
mation on the subject. For hirriself he was not at all alarmed '
time. It was no small testimony in favour of at Mr. Owen's plan ;. but he confessed he should be so, if the
Mr:. Owen.; that a Petition was presented in Muounsdee.f Commonsd
on soan acrtiendthursn It. Owen'swlafa.T.maeita
way ; plan were
its
fayour of his plan from the County of Lanark, utility would be enoughP to recommend it ; and the public press
which was the scene of his experiments. The would not fail to advocate it. The Hon. Member for \Vey-
lisPlite
he mouth
thought
awn.the
less
ssys to be extended to workhouses
do _
better.
orkhouses ;but
liii, Member then eulogised the establishment
they had to with workhouses the
at,New Lanark, and referred, as,a proof of what
Mr: CANNING said, that entertaining a sincere
nilibt be done by combination in the improved
respect for the talents and generous views of Mr.
atilministration of the ...Poor Laws, to the,House Owen, he felt unwilling to say ally thing that
of
„might _disparage the object that he had in view.lndustry at Newport in the Isle of Wight,_.
Tile benefit which he expected to derive from a Mr. Owen had pressed the matter upon him, and
Pirliamentary• Commission, was from the most lie (Mr. Canning) declared that he would vote,
coo Ipiete investigation of the plan, and the puh-
after hearing the arguments on both sides, ac-
lie., discussionwhich would thus he excited, and cording to his conviction. He now felt it neces-
NvOnid tend_to remove the prejudices which exist-
would vote against the pro-
any other mode of drawing attention
(d more speedily than could be expected, from sary to say, that he wo
position of the Hon. MeMber. Agreeing to the
.to it.. He
coiaCluded by seconding the motion, arguments of his. Noble F riefid, he thought that
the -plan of Mr. Owen would lead to the corn-
' The Marquis of LoNnoNnenny said,.-a pro-
plete destruction of individuality, anti create an
position similar to the present had, formerly been
-• amalgamation opposed to the principles of human
rejected by the House,- and. .he still bad great nature, , g
and, above all, to thegenius of this
dopbt.of the propriety
,of deciding thaCParlia-
wecountry. It struck him, that there was a wide
merit should charge itself with.the responsibility
0 difference between an institution which was un-
-o:it-Tiding on the prospect held out to the tom- der the immediate inspection of an individual by
munity by Mr. Owen's Plan. The mode in
whom'it was 'fostered, and who was naturally
which his lion. Friend (Mr. Dawson) had re-
anxious for its-success, anti the extension . of the
ferved to the Reports which had been made to
principle on which- it was• conducted to society
Par,liament this Session increased their doubts,
at large. Individuals congregate together on
For, if the Report of the Agricultural Commit-
tees. on which Committee he (Lord L.) had some known and intelligent principle. Masters
and servants, landlords •-and tenants, workmen
spent many a weary morning-0 laugh)--was
soand manufacturers, were bound together by the
coun unsatisfactory, what would the feelings of the
closest relations, by private interests and public
ed ftry be, if, after being told that a Plan exist- obligations. But how were two thousand
or bringing back the golden days of Para-
dire, and that Parliament had given i persons, unknown to each other, unconnected
into the by any of those firm and natural ties, to
trick, all the bright colours melted into air? In
congregate together, was not explained to him .
this free and happy country, any plan of this •
by any thing he had ever read on this subject,
kind would be sufficiently investigated without
:t or by any thing be had heard that night.—
behe intervention of Parliament. The Hon. Mem- What was the inducement to those persons ?
t had told us that the spade was preferable to Were they to start as volunteers ? If they did,
the plough, and that
were all dit we should never be happy he was convinced that a scheme commencing in
till we gging—(a laugh) ;—that a delusion would end in disappointment. lie (Mr.
cotton manufactory could never be carried on well Canning) confessed that he did not see any thing
till there was a Mr. Owen to take care of the in the principle of Mr. Owen which ought to in-
morals of the people when they came out of the duce that House•to disturb the established rela-
Lions of society in this country. lie hoped that
mill, so that society would lose its dispersed and
independent character, and would be reduced
to it was not necessary for him to defend himself
B.` system of machinery which the Hon. Member
would drive e in. that ]louse from any charge of religious -bi-
ut of the world except as applied to
gotry.—(Cheers.)—He could not help saying,
human beings. He protested against the House that as far as he knew, the community formed
of Commons being the proper body to take upon by Mr. Owen was the first community in this
itself the investigation of abstract principles, or
country which professed no particular principles
of ill new inventions,
,the success of which so
of religion. Religion, as far as regarded an in-
ofte'n depended on the zeal of the inventors. lie dividual, was a consideration between him and
hoped they would not undertake an inquiry his God. But in a country where there was a
which would add one •to the fruitless results national religion upheld and protected by the
which were supposed to lower their character in State, he would not impose penalties on those
public estimation. There were_ large and intel- who might differ from that religion—(Hear,
ligent bodies which had a direct -and lively in- hear !)—but he thought that the peculiarities
terest in any plan for the improvement of the ad- avowed by Mr. Owen, were not those which
ministration of the poor, anti it was notnecessary should' be stamped by Parliamentary approba-
to a, trial of Mr. Owen's Plan (if it held out any tion. He thought that in sound discretion, Mr.
prospects) that the country should be carved out Owen ought to have kept those peculiarities to
into.parallelograms.in order to put the poor under himself. He (Mr. Canning) did not break into
the management of the Exchequer. The state of the privacy of that Gentleman to learn his opi-
discipline recommended by Mr. Owen might be nions, or his peculiarities on matters of religion.
applicable enough to poor houses, but it was by Mr. Owen openly -declared them to the world.
no means applicable to the feelings of a free na7 It was not, therefore, for Parliament to interfere
tion., He did not stand there'to oppose any be- with them. As this was 'one reason why he
nevolent scheme, but he felt it necessary to pro- would vote against the present motion, he thought
test.against Parliament being made the tribunal it necessary to state it. Nothing that he had
for investigating every abst.ruSe principle , and said would discourage private individuals from
every new scheme for modelling the established trying the experiment: After repeated and suc-
Qrder of society. lie could not consent to the cessful experiments, the plan would come with
granting. of a Commission, which he was appre- greater chance of success before Parliament.
hensiYe would ultimately lead -.to embarrass- But it was too much to ask for an implied pledge
meat in that House, without producing any useful of the support and approbation of Parliament to
result.
• . • Sir. N a principle, after a long course of trial and mul-
V. DE CRESPIGNY thought that the plan deserved
at least a fair hearing. He thought also that the House of Com- t" 1. ti instances of success. The motion he-
lp te
mons watiprecisely the for considering of any plan that fore the House was a motion for information,
mightkad to the improvement and benefit of the people.. The but there was also a roosition to address the
system of education adopted by Mr.-Owen fdrced children to p
,-,
p
become good members of society. How much superior was Crown to appoint a Commission to inquire into
that mode to, the conduct of many schools in the metropolis, the state of Mr. Owen's Institution at New
which were sinks of iniquity—which led children into the ways
of vice and corruption, arid which ought to be suppressed by the Lanark, and that the Commissioners should re-
police of the country ?. - . • port the result of their labours to that House. It
Mr. HUME said, that ha-subscribed-10 every principle laid was impossible for the House to agree to that
down in the speech of the Noble Marquess. The nature of proposition, for if the Commission were issued,
the plan of society recommended would take away from the the Commissioners, instead of reporting to the
British character that which was its bokst and its protection, its
native ind ependenee—( H ear !) —lt was said. that Mr.. Owen's By that
House, should report to the Crown.
establishment was conducted with the utmost regularity ; he- course of proceeding it would throw a burthen on
admitted-the fact, but one or his objections to it was, that it
wits much too regular—(a laugh)'.—Theie was too much re u-
the Executive Government. It would become
larity to-leave room for energy, and ,independence;-if man be -the duty of Government to recommend to Portia
-
not called upon by the pressure of circumstances to think for meat some measures founded on the Report. Then
himself, he will never think at all. However admirable the so-
ciety of Mr. Owen might be under his own immediate eye, its ,
as to the other point, it was said that the House
principles could never be extended_ to a free and.enterprising wanted information,and it was well observed that
people. 'lle could not, however, it down without expressing they had the elements of a Commission before them.
the respect and admiratiOn lie felt for the virtues and extensive
benevolence of Mr. Owen. If the Honourable Mover and Seconder, and the
Mr. F. BUXTON -said,- that there was hardly-one opinion convinced Worthy Baronet opposite, were of the
uttered by the Noble Marquess in which he-did not concur— 'great -benefits that were likely to result to the
(hear !)--and-there was hardly an expression made use of by his
Honourable-Friend (Mr. Maxwell) from which he'did not dis-from the general adoption of Mr.
country Owen's
sent—(a laugh.)—Still there was ono reason-for supporting-the Plan, what prevented them from employing their
present motion. Circumstances led.him to the knowledge of the time, their talents, and their money, in making
state df the workhouses, wnich ' were institutions for the direct
production of misery and vice.; it was impossible for any One the inquiry which they'so anxiously pressed upon
to visit them without being stnjck with the miserable, squalid, the House ? 'They might do so without creating
and degraded appearance of the children; but with respect to any expense to the country ; and after making a
Mr. wen's establishment, there were not to be fOunchn any .
place so large a collection -of children possessed, of so much journey down to Lanark; they would have the
health, vivacity, spirit and docility.—(Hear !)—He ,would agree pleasing task of bringing forward a distinct pro-
to the motion, because the examination might lead to one im- position on the subject.—(A laugh.)—He object-
portazsi inquiry, namely,- that of considering the best means of
d to
managing large institutions. He hoped that the state of the e
the mode proposed—it was inconvenient in
workhquses, containing a population a many hundred thousand itself, and inconvenient in its example. He would
persons, would be taken up by some Gentleman, and shortly v against the motion with the less reluctance,
oe brought under the consideration of that House: ote
Mr. SCAITLETT thought that the mode proposed was not because the rejection of that motion would not.
the most expedient mode of inquiry. If any Gentleman thought mar the good which was contemplated as likely
the principle good, perhaps the best way of proCeeding would to flow from the principles of Mr. Owen. Time
be to bring in a distinct Bill on the subject. Referring. to an
observation made by an Hon. Gentleman that evening, he (Mr. would make those principles better understood,
searlets) woullonly say that he never would have brought in and they might.), at a future period, be brought
the Bill now before Parliament if he did not think that it would
under the consideration of the Leislature, in a
tend tel.:ameliorate the condition of the poor. He thought that - g
Hon. Gentleman .would. only act fairly to hear arguments in more improved and matured state. • • -
fawn; pf public measures instead of anticipating and aspersing. Mr. \V. SMITH said, that if the present question was for
them.' the' adoption of Mr. Owen's plan, he would say no. But at the
Mt.:H.-GURNEY t'nought that the Plan of -Mr. Ovien was- dame time he felt it necasary to vote for an inquiry into the na-
higlily.#leseevinsof inquiry„ • ture of that system which was found to produce so much local
r. yVILBERFORCE regretted that the motion had been advantage in the only part of the country in which it was tried.
brought forward at all. He had the highest opinion of the He should, therefore, support the motion.
eeultAnd disinterested benevolence of Mr_ Owen's views; but Sir I. COFFIN declared himself an enemy to the plans' of
r •
- •
thought.", Commission quite unnecessary for 'the proposed Mr. Owen.