The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-26 00:00:00

COAL TRAFFIC EVIDENCE.

Mr. Edward Wrigley resides at Manchester, and is a mineral
surveyor. Has visited the coal-fields to the eastward, in Norfolk,
and endeavoured to ascertain in that district the prices to the mer-
chant and consumer. (Produced a map.) The blue colours on the
map exhibited the places he had visited ; his route from north to
south comprehended Retford and Barnet, and all the in-
termediate towns ; and from east to west from Norwich
to -Stamford, and all the intermediate towns. One of the
London and York branches passed through the Sheffield
and Bedford coal beds, and joins the existing tram road. The
Barnsley bed was a very large district in Yorkshire. There was
no mode of transit at present for Barnsley coal but by the Dorn
and Dove Canal, and the Don Navigation. The London and York
branch proposed to join the latter at Doncaster. The Silkstone bed
was, in fact, part of the Barnsley bed,but was called the Silkstone,
and was a very large one. The Wakefield beds were to some ex-
tent immediately upon the London and York line. Has made a
tabular statement of the present cost of transit for coals from the
different towns he had visited, and compared it with the cost by
the proposed London and York pine.
To the Committee—The North Midland line did go through a
coal district.

To Mr. Pauer—The line of the North Midland runs nearly due
north and south. The table now in his hand contained the com-
parative list of prices; did not include Cambridge, because it was
not on the London and York line. The prices were based upon
the average cost of Silkstone coal, for That fairly represented the ave-
rage price of the whole article in Yorkshire. The columns of the
table represented the pr: sent cost to the merchant at the
pit's mouth, the cost to the consumer, the cost by the London
and York line, and the saving to be effected by the latter. The speci-
men ofcoal now on the table was from the Silkestone bed, the price o
that at the pit's mouth would be ss. 3d. per ton, price at Doncaster,
Os. Pd., at Bawtry, 7s. 3d., or say 7s. 6d. Assuming the latter to
be the price, the cost at the Lnulon depot, by the London and
York line, would be 165., including a cost of id. per ton per
mile from Bawtry; inferior coal for gas, coke, and smiths' use
would be delivered in London by the London and York line at
130. 6d , and the Barnsley slack at 13s. 3d. ; this price did
not include city dues. The quantity of coal now raised from the
pits in the neighbourhood of Barnsley in a year was 805,500
tons, but 1,872,000 tons could be raised without sinking new
shafts ; this included Silkstone. In the Sheffield and Rotherham
district the present quantity raised in a year was 727,200 tons;
they had facilities for raising 1,380,000 tons, with the present
establishment. In Wakefield the present annual supply Was
1,592,000 tons, could raise 3,429,000 tons; this quantity could
be much increased, if necessary. The expense of raising the ad-
ditional quantity would he less than that of the present quantity,
because the greatly increased demand would lower the price.
A long digression here took place, which was occupied by
counsel in explaining the object of his giving this class of evidence
so minutely.
The witness continued by saying that if Cambridge had been in.
eluded in his calculation, the average price of coals would have
been raised instead of lowered. There were also some other towns
not included. Has no doubt that the London and York line,
passing through the blue district, would compete with the sea.
borne coal.

Cross-examined by Mr. CoweN—lf the sea-borne coal
could be brought as cheaply as by rail, the difference
then would be as to quality. The city dues amounted to Is. 1 id.
per ton. Believes there are extensive coal fields in Leicestershire,
in the neighbourhood of Leicester. If they were to be brought
by the Swanington line, their price would depend on the cost of
transit. Is not aware of the distance between the South Stafford-
shire fields and London. The distance between Durham and Lon-
don was 240 miles, and between Silkstone and London, by Doncas-
ter, 160 miles. Could not say whether that was less than the
distance between South Staffordshire and London.
Mr. Edward Wrigley, cross-examined by Mr. Coweav—The price
of Durham coals, coming by the London and York line, would be
18s. 6d., exclusive of City dues; the cost of transit being 14s. 6d.,
and that of the coals at the pit's mouth about 4s. This was tender
coal. Knows nothing of the price of South Staffordshire coal.
To Mr. Webster—The cost of transit of all description of coal
by railway would control the price of coal itself. Does not know
much of the Kingston or Nottingham coal. The average on
which he had fixed the price of Stamford coal in London
at 245. 9d. coming by the London and York line was the
price of Derbyshire, Leicester, and Seaborne coal. The saving to
be effected was 12s. 2id. per ton. Was not aware of the distance
between Stamford and the Derby, or Leicester coal-pits, nor of the
fact that there was a project for a line of railway from Stamford to
those places.
To Mr. Wells—The Leicestershire coal was rather an inferior
article; believes that any coal coming to London by the London
and Yorkshire would be cheapened in price.

To Mr. Barker—Said in his direct evidence that the nearest point
at which Silkstone coal could be put upon a rail was at Doncaster.
Has heard of a line from Lincoln by Doncaster to Swinston. The
latter town is nearer Silkstone than Doncaster. The North Mid.
land line proposed to go through the heart of the Silkstone coal
field, but that had died away. Does not know the Derbyshire coal
field, but found that coal in the Newark market arid found it in.
ferior, It came from Swanick.
Mr. Joseph Pease was then re-called, and he deposed that Dur-
ham coals, conveyed by the London and York line, would be 245.
per ton to ►he consumer, after pa) ing lid. per ton per mile, or
19s. 3d., if the tonnage were 1/2d. The cost to the consumer
if brought by sea, would be 28.9. 7d. per ton, including all
charges ; the 19s. 3d. per ten was arrived at, assuming the rail-
way company to be the vendors.
To ➢ir. CowEN—Did not think the South Staffordshire coal could
compete with his.
•

To Mr. HILDYARD—The price of coals at Thirsk is Ils. per ton ;
the cost of transit of coal from the pit's mouth to Thirsk, by the
Stockton and Darlington line, was, practically, 2d. per ton per mile.
Dr. Webb has lived fifty-two years in Cambridge. Is well ac-
quainted with the Cambridge and Lincoln, and the London and
York schemes. Is decidedly in favour of the latter, because he
conceived it would afford much more general pubic accommodation,
being much more direct. Pays 275. per ton for coals at Cam-
brielge.

10 Mr. Lau—Does not say that the road proposed to be made
from Cambridge to Lincoln by engineers in 1845 was inferior
to that made by the Romans.—(Laughter.) The Cambridge
Town Council signed a petition in favour of the Cambridge and
Lincoln line, and also one by a large number of the residents
of the University. The London and York line did not pass nearer
his land than seven miles.

To Mr. WELLS—The reason he conceived that the London and
York line would afford more accommodation to Warwickshire and
Derbyshire than the Cambridge and Lincoln, was because it went
more westward. It would be a great accommodation to have
frequent communication daily through Cambridge, north and
south ; therefore it would be better to have a trunk line than a
hraLch line.

To Mr. Cowsw—l believe the Romans were founders of direct
rather than circuitous roads—(Laughter)--they were a straight-
forward people?— (Laughter.)—Sometimes.—(Laughter.)—lf the
Cambridge and Lincoln line were 10 times shorter than the Lon-
don and York, would it not be more classical—more Roman ?
(Laughter.)—lt would. Considers the northern traffic greater than
the western.

To the Committee—Has taken into consideration the branches
proposed to be made by the Cambridge and Lincoln scheme, and
still considers the London and York preferable.
The Committee adjourned at four o'clock.

Group L.

GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER,_ AND PORTSMOUTH

RAILWAY.

The Committee resumed their investigation of the merits of this
line this morning, at twelve o'clock ; Mr. Denison in the chair.
Mr. GURNEY, for the promoters, called Mr. G. W. Homo, now
secretary to theGuildford and Chichester Railway, who stated that
the gross number of passengers on the line between Nine Elms and
Gosport in 1844 was 60,270; and from Wandsworth and all the
stations east of Woking 4,743. The projected line branches
off from Woking. From Nine Elms, through the same stations,
to Fareham the number was 6,058. The next station which he
took was the licensed conveyances on the turnpike road—the data
of this he had obtained from the Stamp-Office, and he found by
these that the number of passengers by these conveyances was
82,680. •
To an inquiry from the CH&IIIMAN, the witness stated that he

took the passengers to all places on the line. This was the number
which had travelled. On this there was an increase allowed
for railway conveyance. By posting, before the opening of
the Brighton and Great Western liyc, they averaged in the
year 1,706 journeys between the south and the west of England,
generally carrying four passengers, making a total of 6,894 pas-
sengers.
To this Mr. Vs traTeLev objected, because lie thought the infcr-
mation was intended to be unintelligible.
The witness further added, that he calculated that the journeys
to London by Medhurst and Petworth, were 200 ; by Peters-
field and London, 75, and by Petersfield, Petworth, and London,
100; by Chichester, Medhurst, and Petworth, 200 journeys; by
Chichester and Petworth, 125 journeys; and by Bognor
and Arundel, 200 journeys ; making the communication
by posting in which this line would be interested
9,624 journeys, averaging four passengers each. The commercial
passengers were 2,000 on the line, and the passengers from stations
were 21,157. He had taken his data from the persons passing
through the turnpikes. The passengers by van were 13,104, and
the gross extent of distance was 251,784 miles. The passengers
to Goodwood he estimated were 6,300; the total number of miles
travelled from all these sources was 6,131,282. That was the esti_
mate of the existing traffic by rosd and rail; and he further
estimated on the three first items an increase of 25 per cent.
his gave for the number of miles travelled by the passengers be.
tweet] Nine Elms and Gosport :3,81)8,748, between Wrielsworth
and the stations east of Woking and Gosport 306,844, and to the sta-
tions east of Woking and Farnham 378,625. By the road conveyances
he calculated an increase of 100 per cent , and by the rail an in-
crease of 25 per cent., giv ng a total of increase of passengers of
326,704, making for the increase to Gosport 449,000,400 miles, and
for commercial passengers 207,000, and for passengers by van
503,568.
The evidence of Mr. Home (continued from our afternoon
edition )—The increase to Goodwood he estimated at 200 per cent.,
making a total of 435,861 miles from this source. From the in-
crease of commercial passengers there would be 139,177 miles.
This would give a ; resent traffic from these sources between the
stations at Nine Elms and those east of Woking of 34,104 pas.
scngers, which, with the increase to Farnham, would make 39,936.
On this, he calculated there would be an increase, both from the
road and rail, which he calculated at 74,046, at 9d, would
make a total of 2,7761. 10s. a year. It appeared that
the carriages carried from the Nine Elms station to the
stations east of Woking, and to Portsmouth and Farnham, last
year was, by the railway, 369, which, with those passing by road,
would make 619, passing over a mileage of 34,039, at 6d. a mile,
giving a total of income of 8501. 19s. 6d. The number of horns
carried by the railway was 377—by the same stations to Farnham the
number was 424. This gave an increase from carriages at 3d, per
mile of 7911.45, and from 1,6571, for horses, makings total of miles of
63,296. On the Gosport branch he calculated an increase of
25 per cent. on the present number of railway passengers. The
population at Gosport lie estimated at between 8,000 and 9,000.
The traffic from coals the witness estimates at a total of 18,250
tons, carried over 302,312 miles at I id. per ton per mile, and the
revenue at 18,8911. 9s. per annum. Of chalk and lime he calcu-
lated that there would be 20,000 tons carried on an average of 10

miles, making a total of carriage over 200,000 miles at 2d. per mile,
and a revenue of 1,666/. 13s. 4d. Of heavy goods carried coast-
wise by water to Chichester, Portsmouth, and for Fareham there
were 13,367 tons carried 419,591 miles, at 2d. per ton, and yield-
ing a return of 3,4961. 11 s. 10d. On Timber there was about

13,500 tons carried 272,000 miles, at 2d., and yielding a revenue
of 2,2661. I3s. 4d. Of Sheep and Lambs he calculated there
would be 52,531 carried 1,264,124 miles, and making a re-
turn of 1,053/. Bs. Bd. For cattle, he estimated there would be
52,851, at 1 id per head per mile, and making a return of 330/. Os. 41d.
Of calves there would be 1,324 head, carried over a total number of
32,127 miles, at a halfpenny per head, making a return of
641. 16s. Hid. From these sources, therefore, he estimated a
total revenue of 305/. Is. 2d. From the mails Mr. Horne antici.
pated a total revenue of 2,000/. ; from passengers the total amount
at present received from this source was 69,890/. Is. Sd. ; and
from parcels he anticipated 2,7761. 10s. Those conclusions
were drawn from the data furnished by the Stamp-office, and
from his own knowledge of what occurred on the South. Western
Radway.l Of corn there was 6,050 tons carried over a distance
of 69,775 miles at 2d., and which would yield a revenue of
581/. 9.. 2d. Of third class goods there wound be 3,640 tons car-
ried 106,615 miles at 2d., and yielding a return of 1,100/. 7s.
Of fourth class goods there would be 19,833 tons carried a total

per mile, and which would
o f
coursedistance of 1,127,7
34
ma
klea7 return
miles a
u rn
of t3d a
6,4341.
. 3tons!
71d. From these several
sources there would be a revenue. From merchandise there
.could be 17,4451. I Is. 9d. per annum. From cattle and
pigs, 395/. 7s. 4d. For sheep and lambs, 1,0531. Bs. Bd.
making with the difference arising from passengers an aggregate
income of 95,202/. 18s. 1 Id. Deducting from this an allowance
of 40 per cent. for working expenses, which amounted to
57,121/. 155. 5d., it would leave a return of 5/. 14s. 3d. per cent.
on 1,000,0004 capital. With respect to distance, the saving by the
Guildford line over the Atmospheric line to Chichester was 51
miles. To Chillingford the distance by the Guildford line was 40
in
favourmiles, byof h
ther Atmospheric
foformer
ofl3l miles.
it wass3 miles, makfng a difference

Portsmouth,
To Mr. W. J. Choplin, Chairman of the Sobuadtba-i:VaeysstebrenenCodin:iraonuye,
was then called, and in his cross.examinatien by Mr. RA WLINSON,
tesof aticficeott.hodat
athtienSotiu,ethi-nWhaesbittearnntsCoofmrpoa
To an inquiry from the CHAIRMAN, Mr. Chaplin stated that the
Company bad contemplated a line from Windsor through Chertsey
by Woking and Weybridge to Portsmouth direct,• but they
were thrown out in the surveys last summer, not
being able to bring them ou; in time to deposit
the notices required by the Parliamentary Standing
orders. The Company had made several efforts to get the privilege
of running packets to Havre, and other places in France, as well
as to the west of England, but they could get no countenance from

_ .
the Government; but they had establsshed a communication by
packet, and every packet going in and out of Fouthampton called at
Portsmauth.

From zn inquiry from Mr. Milnes as to whether if no
other Company had started the project of a raijway direct to
Nortsmouth, whether they would have proposed any line to
Portsmouth. Mr.. _Chaplin stated, that he having had d conver-
sation with the Duke of Wellington, who was a leading authority
with respect to the defences of the country, he had been
led to the conviction that the caast line from Dorchester
was of the utmost importance, and the Company had determined
to run a line to Corsham, and then turn into Portsmouth. From
the position of the coast-line a great portion of the traffic must of
necesity be drawn from the South-Western line. The cruise-
quence of this would be to spread the dividends over a
larger amount of capital, and yet, notwithstanding this,

the witness thought it was worth the while of the com-
pany to go to the expense of making the two lines,
because they expected to draw that which was now turn-
pike road traffic on to their line, and in addition to this they
anticipated some facilities from other sources. Besides these cir-
cumstances, the Board were induced by a saving of expense in
havingl only, to begin at Woking. And in consequence of all the
inferences they drew they anticipated a reasonable profit from this
projected railway.
To the cross-examination of Mr. O'MALLEY, Mr. Chaplin stated

that the South-Western Company had done all that they could do
for the Portsmouth population, and, in some instances, more than

ley were justified in doing. The highest dividend the Company
6d. on a 50/. share. The first
dividend they ever paid was 15s. a share, but that was on
had ever paid was 725.
part of the line. One of the autumnal dividends had been as much
as 40s. a share, but this was counterbalanced by the bad dividend in
spring. . .

. -
To Mr. OswaLD's inquiry,
Mr. Chaplin stated that the distance
to London by the Brighton line would be to Chichester 7871 miles.
To the questions of Mr. bIILNE the witness replied that he and
several others of the Directors of the South Western Com-
pany had met the Mayor and several other individuals,
whom they considered the most persons in that town, and he be.
lieved that she line they proposed would agreeable to the inhabitants
of Portsmouth ; and at any rate he was convinced that the South.
Eastern Company would give satisfaction to Portsmouth. The
Company would have no objection to anopt the atmospheric prin.
ciple if it were proved to be the best. They thought, indeed, that
after they had got their Bill
they would have an opportunity of
seeing the principle on the Croydon and Epsom line before they
commenced their earthworks.
To the cross-examination of Mr. Aturisr, Mr. Chaplin stated
that the estimates were made out on the supposition that the line
would be a locomotive line, but there was no obstacle to making it
an atmospheric line.

To the re-examination of Mr. GURNEY, the witness replied that
he expected much of the loss which would otherwise accrue
from the abstraction of traffic from the South Western line would
be made up by the increase from other sources, to whirls he had
alluded.

Mr. Cornelius Stovin, superintendent of traffic on the South
Western Railway since 1839, stated that no favrur had been
shown to the Southampton traffic over the Bortsmouth traffic ; in
fact, the railway to Gosport was less than that to Southampton.
The charge for the delivery of goods from Nine Elms within a cir-
cuit of 4 miles from the statism, varies from 3s. 6d. a ton for heavy
goods, and 6s. Bd. a ton for lighter goods single
parcels. He
range of delivery extended eastward all over the City, and west-
wa.rd as far as Chelsea. By water he had now a contract which
enables him to deliver goods by water at any wharf between Nine-
elms and Woolwich, a shilling a ton. There was no train now to
Southampton without a corresponding one to Gosport, and a reduc-
tion had been made last September on the carriage of goods, the
charge to Gosport was the same as to Southampton, although the
distance was greater. This reduction had been made,
in his opinion, in consequence of the impression that
the carriage by rail was high, and partly, :also,
in consequence of the opening of the Southampton Docks. The
reduction had been 50 per cent., the charge for the whole distance
having been 20s. a ton. The present traffic made a return for pas.
sengers of '254,0001., goods 52,0001., horses 3,9741., carriages
4,3791., parcels 11,1731., and for live stock 2,6981., making a total
for all sources of upwards of 337,517/. ; the account being made
up to the end of 1844, the cost for expenses being about 40 per cent.
The reduction of charge for goods during the first three months had
occasioned some falling off in the receipts, though they hz.d gradually
recovered. The effect of the restriction had been this :—During the
last three months of 1843, the quantity of goods carried was 19,518
tons, and during the corresponding months last year, 25,875 tone
Turing the first three months of last year, the quantity earned
was 18,681 tons, and during the three corresponding months of
the present year, 26,204 tons, making an increase of 1831. The
number of passengers between Gospost and London during last
favourratbetweeno
definitef o 1'
speedtSouth_i
the
e wasii n
.. .
year had been 60,237, and to Southampion, 108,142, making a
making a
superiority in favour of. Southampton of 47,905. The quantity
of goods carried between London
.and Gosport was 6,564 tons, and
g to show that the rates
all the other railways.
ampton of 8,808 tons.
to Southampton 15,372 tons,
fhe road, and a passenger
To the enquiries of Mr. RAWLINSON and Mr. FLOOD Mr. Storin
stated the rates of charge for the. of
total
tigoodshn e
kkellnyottogbiveedainveyrted, by the
bwTt eyehr
rretnehteat
)hdtiii
rgatdhrt ea,
class
train
bastations,sucsto
utnloti
nni allioiwtg ahrhesei
trsfiu
vrtrenhe
aphtnl 1
oil carriage
srhsatomeos
ened 'dont a y ;
goods, made last September, ex-
more than sixteen miles an
.hour, although the rate required by
Parliament was only twelve miles an hour.
forTmoatlioinr.
other proposed lines, from the South.. Western line.
To Mr. GURNEY, on re-examination, the witness stated that
asW tl
01 A Tt
iEwL Ya. —n,
amount
of witnessraffi Ecolui
tended to all export and import goods. The charge varied from
I 6s. to 20s. a ton for heavy good,, and 3/. for goods of a costly
kind. From the former charges, however,
the reduction on the carriage of
, there was a deduction
of 40 per cent., reducing the charge for delivery at Southampton,
to less than 10s. a ten. But the Company were ready to give equal
advantages to any port which supplied traffic to their railway.
The Committee were adjourned till twelve o'clock tomorrow.

HARROGATE LINE.
This Comm
Group B.
RIPON
(Mr. AND
M. Stewart, chairman), resumed this
morning.
14A1)
Mr. Eatison of Knaresborough was the first witness examined.
He stated that they were supplied at Knaresborough with coals
is.l O
ton.
from Kippax, Manston, Middleworth, and other places, which, if
the Leeds and Thirsk lines were formed, they could not be con-
veyed by, but nearly the whole district
traversed
buterseti lawyetrheen Ripon
oliposnadtaidt
K
Harrogate Junction was in coal districts. The coals were sold
at
iBLi a
Being
ietnsdebs
oao,cross-examinedi gh presentfr. atfrom
aboutl3 sby
y Mr. OVEREND, he said the coals used
to 6 ,
9 perd. a ton,
for burning lime at Knaresboreugh came from Mauston. Silkston
coals were bet er than Manston.
Re-examined—The coals which came by the Leeds and Thirsk
Railway could not compete with the north country coals.
upon which
iday last.
hllicohwghaetaedwnaisisre-examined regarding the population returns,
witness
was examined at great length on
Fr
Upon cross-examination by Mr. OVERCND, witness admitted that
he had not calculated the population in several townships within
five miles of the Leeds and Thirsk line—Flaxby, Goldsborough,
Cannethorpe, and other places.
Tile CHAIRMAN said that he could not allow counsel to go
through the same facts over and over again.
Mr. OTERENO said his object was to show that the population