The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LO DO. TUESDAY MORNING, 23, 1844.

it— -----
1te,400,0001 The estimates for the last four years , strongest terms his assertion that he had not brought it
trueas larger than for ten years previous, though it forward from any hostile feeling towards France, but
sties itaey had not maintained the same number of from anxiety for the honour of this country, combined
a‘ short
catnrnision. Yet tl.is country would be enabled with a spirit of good-will towards our great and generous
to eel period, and with the comsent of that House, neighbour.
aa: a, !level demonstration worthy of its great fame Mr. HUME said he was. at first afraid that the Liberal
loasees.al Power. They had voted 33,000 seamen and party on that side of the House were about to play the
dere When the naval estimates were under consi- game that -had been pursued on former occasions, of
knell", the Gallant Commodore opposite said that urging the Government into hostilities, but
the there was a number of ships in commission in he was glad to hear from the Right lion.
tai
this
terranean, they were not properly manned. He Gentlemen that his motion was not so intended.
sieariuwiN to slim that the number of ships in commis- It appeared to him that the motion, as taken up
Tie, as "t a proper estimate of naval strength. by the Right lion. Baronet, involved two questions :
in
ae,Y 'night have a comparatively small number of ships first, how much they were to expend on their naval
they ati L'etsslon, well manned and appointed, and yet force, and, secondly, how far the House was to interfere
Eel more be more strong in naval power if they had in negotiations with respect to the first question, about
lion ships but not so effectually manned. The Right which the Right lion. Baronet felt rather toe sensitive.
topecrentletnan called for an account of the fleet: he He thought the more the Parliament knew about the des-
tastion 11° Hon. Member would second him on such a tination- and disposal of the navy the better. He thought
cesa.. Be had now stated all that he considered it ne- the Right Hon. Baronet deserved the thanks of the
lioe.l6eto say with respect to the motion of the Right country for the reductions he had made, and wisely
tuleman. He had attempted to show, that if, in made, in the naval establishment. There was a power-
iliejer`a7 acquiesced in the continued occupation of ful war party in France, and a very mischievous one.
tlicour•Y Prance, they bad acquiesced in consequence of Every act of the English Government was turned by
acquiescence
,e of society, and in consequence of the precede that party to the purposes of excitement. And what was
blaine:leiescence of their predecessors, which he did not more likely to create that spirit than unnecessary arms,
was but, in girine. that acquiescence, it m:nt on the part of England? He was alwae s for keep-
it enaieltPected that ?ranee would state that ing up a proper force ; but there was this consideration,
That de" not extend its conquests to Tunis or Morocco. that when England armed, all the rest of the world armed
Peeellecelaration had been made. The Noble Lord must also—when England increased her fleet, France ine
when t that this question of Algiers had been discussed creased her's also. They would not believe that Eng-
appearte,was Foreign Secretary; and if he (Sir Re Peel) land did it in mere self-defence, but would attribute it to
telet rather backward in giving information on this some aggressive motive. With respect to the motion for
loela a it must be remembered that he was only fol- atommittee, hewould ask how this country would have
torci.g the example that had been set him by the Noble regarded a Committee of the French Chamber, appointed
With tette was of opinion that it would be inconsistent to inquire into our right to occupy Sinde or the
tpoadelle duty of a Minister to give up any corre- island of Hon-ong ?—(flear, hear.) He thought
meat and
that had taken place between this Govern- England had been' too sensitive, and too much disposed
epna and that of Morocco on this subject. He trusted, to intermeddle in the affairs of other nations. He be-
tany ,?_ollsideration, that the Hon. Gentleman would lieved the Goverment of France felt the danger of en-
lad the Motion to be negatived. If he (Sir R. Peel) taring upon a war, .and with the declaration it had made
Hoesren with reserve on this question, he hoped the that it had no intention of encroaching upon the domi-
alae,ed.would consider the difficulties in which he was nions of Morocco he thought they ought to be satisfied..
°fan Re had been anxious to avoid the expression He was glad to understand that it was not the intention
rite 4,°,Pinion which might tend to diminish- the autho- of the motion to increase the feeling in favour of a war;
terdmis country to maintain an honourable peace. and that, beyond the necessity of keeping up a sufficient
'iews j°Ell4 RUSSELL said, that so far as his own force to maintain the dignity of the country, the Hon. and
IDs e and intentions were concerned, he should not have Learned Member was not desirous of going.
Presetia.eY Motion on this subject, and considering the Mr. MACKINNON said, as he did not wish to detain
!eceo thstate of affairs with respect to France and Mo- the House from going into Committee, he should ad-
lefert't e would have waited before he asked for further dress to it a very few words, and those would refer
ever, :on from the Government. He thought, how- chiefly to the occupation of Algiers by the French.' In
judged !'t as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend had this country, even if there were a feeling in favour of a
ti It expedient to make the motion, it was but jus- war, he believed that feeling would be kept down by the
rat eth haeit'l to state that nothing could be more tempe- force of the Government. But in France that was not
Ike the motion, and nothing more guarded than the case. There there was an immense population, a
ition ettil.age that had been employed. He thought the large muse of whom had everything to gain and nothing
ote il-on• Gentleman had misunderstood his Right to lose ;by engaging in a war, and who were ready to
had rn rieuti on this subject. His Right Hon. Friend rush into one at any time, and fur any reason. Under
183 p made u a statement with regard to what took place in these circumstances, he considered the occupation of Al-
Gentles to the occupation of Algiers, but the Right Hon. giers by the French as a good thing for this country.
out 'elllancesaid now, was it intended, that having been It acted as a safety valve, which carried off the more
slsoe th °woe since 1841, they should now insist unquiet spirits of France. It served as an outlet for the
Gent, s evacuation of Algiers ? The Right Honourable discontented portion of the troops of France, - which
with substantial
was an able debater when he had to deal were exchanged for others more inclined to support the
e_ arguments, but, singular to say, when Government. France was in that position in which she
than
to deal With shadows he employed greater force must have external war or internal discontent. Under
thou ivith substantial arguments. They had never these circumstances, he believed that the occupation of
t it desirable to make any demand on France Algiers was of the greatest advantage to the whole of
teen :sPeet to the possession of Algiers. They had Europe. •
-
respect eor more occasions asked for explanations with Sir C. NAPIER could not agree with the Hon.
regarctto future aggrandisements, more especially with Gentleman that the occupation of Algiers by France
%Stec', te° Tunis and Morocco ; and assurances on that would be beneficial to this country. He thought the
tog, " ['ad been given which were considered satisfac- occupation had, and was likely still further to lead, to
those ail/c1 those assurances had been renewed. Under disadvantageous results to this country. France had
aaiet,reurtistances he should not have felt called upon repeatedly declared that it was not her intention to
ha for any further information on the subject. occupy Algiers, but merely to punish the Dey for having
°a thoughtth that the demands made by France offered an insult to France. This promise, although
fait `",„e, Government of Morocco were but often repeated, the Government of.this country had
Poet 'net, involved, however, several most im- never demanded should be reduced to writing. We
net portent
questions ; and if those demands were ought never to -hare permitted France to take pos-
ltaa ttniPlied with, then came the question, how the war session of Algiers, far less Morocco, which was
affair:eue carried on ? Considering the complexion of ten thousand times more importance to us. Perhaps
l'ernt, had taken, he was not disposed to press the Go- at the very moment at which he was speaking the Prince
apart er!t as to their policy on this subject. There was de Joinville was bombarding Tangiers. He
,thought,
iron, Y France that had a blind partiality to war, not therefore, that they had a right to call upon the Govern-
l'rat,:eY hope of keeping up the dignity and honour of meat to take steps for the protection of British interests.
seet ,eO, but merely from -a
love of war itself. The pre- The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
to th`ei
desire
of France had manfully opposed itself always became very sensitive when allusion was made
ease,"iti tlesire among its own people, and such being the to the state of the navy. The present state of the navy
Press Ile (Lord J. Russell) would be the less disposed to had not been equalled for ten or fifteen years past. He
thet niPal the Government the making of statements remembered in the year 1839 the then Government being
‘eilleig"'' be grating to the French people. While he attacked in consequence of the navy being in an ineffi-
ith r not press the Government to give any answer cient state. The attack was commenced by Lord Cole
tatted sPect to questions on which the might be en! chester, and seconded by Lord llardwick. Now what
thoD 1:11 diplomatic negotiations with France, yet he was the state of the navy, in 1839 ? We had then 34,165
thp,i t the Government were not justified in the line seamen, boys, and marines, and 21 sail of the line.
dieL'adtaken with respect tonaval defence. It was a very What did Lord Melville, who was a very good authority,
tater7at thing to say that the House of Commons should then say ? He certainly did not join in the attack on
apd tors to control the negotiations with foreign powers, the Government, but he pointed out the necessity of
eh saY in what manner the supplies that had been keeping up a large peace establishment—much larger
CreoewriellY voted had been applied by the Minister of the than we were accustomed to do in consequence
easier:l' The Right Hon. Gentleman had upon this oc- of the extensive use of steam power, which,
the ne renewed his protest against being asked concerning to a certain extent, had destroyed our coast-
were 'vat force of this country. Why such questions ing trade, and thereby rendered it more difficult to
haat ecalsonant with precedent. In the times of Chat- obtain seamen for the navy. The Duke of Wellington
Oev„„and of Pitt they were constantly put, and the late on that occasion said, "Here we have war in America, and
Seras'nraent was constantly exposed to such questions. war in Asia, with an establishment that. is not even ade-
th
e time since, he (Lord John Russell) stated that he quote for the wants of peace." The Right Hon. Baronet
,Ought • '
it much better to have a sufficient force ready himself said that it was impossible to see the exertions
to send one out in cases of emergency, and upon which were being made by France and Russia-without
teaat °ccasion he was met by a joke from the Right lion. apprehension ; it was impossible to exclude those marl-
rer°flet• Was it to be said that the House was to grant time Powers froth the consideration of the I ouse. He
le,r4eY, and they were not to ask how it was spent ? (Sir Charles Napier) would quote one other passage
et himself he was one that would not con- from the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, which was a
*lit to
shale of such a doctrine. Now, what was the strange contrast with the opinions which he held now.
the navy of this country in 1838, The Right Hon. Gentleman said" that if it was then ne-
atriflf the present day? In'lB3B, there were eighteen cessary to have eleven sail of the line in the Mediterta-
fine. In 1838 thereps , wwh while in
twenty
unity., 1844, there were only nean, and two ships at Lisbon, all he could say was that
were thirty-two. wi nee.
the present time there w frigates, when at seven sail of the line was very inadequate to protect the
ter of line-of-battle ships The total num- coasts of this country." Yet the language of the Right
thirty-eight, now there 1841
found that ships should
awileirneolly3B was one hundred and Hon. Gentleman was very different now. In
meat of men, wasthirty-six.was
If it there were twenty-six sail of the line, with
have their regular comple- a naval estimate for 43,000 men. In 1843 the Right
they should have
it not, he would ask, equally right that Honourable Baronet reduced the naval force to
sufficient number of ships? That 3%000 men,.and the fleet in the Mediterranean to six or
might increase
the estimates, but that could not be seven ships. In 1844, the force was further reduced to
helped. In 1838 there were seven line-of-battle ships in 36,000 Men ; and that was what it remained at the pre-
the Mediterranean. In 1841, seventeen. In 1844, one, sent moment. The Right Hon. Gentleman said it was
and at thes present. moment there were only two line-of- not men at all, but ships that constituted the navy.
bseantlte in the Mediterranean. So that, at the pre- Why, the-Right Hon. Geatleman might just as well say
di eat, they had only two line-of-battle ships at that fine barracks constituted an army. He depre-
theirbee sposal. Now he would put it to any Hon. Mem- catcd the sstem of manning ships with marines, as had
18'38, whether.s_ that was sufficient for every emergency ?In been done -lately with respect to the Caledonia. He
pea4ltinieon..Friend, the Member for Halifax, in pro- asked, whether it was a fit state for the navy to be in,
estimates for 1839, thought it right to go at when they found a ninety.two gun ship sent out with
thak the Considerable length into the subject, in order to show 750 men, which was only the complement of an eighty.
The .
.re was a sufficient force at that time. four gun ship ? There was but one line-of-battle ship
oepinion was opposed by several Hon. Members, who to guard the coasts of this country, and that was the
aoutthed that the force was then sufficient. it was not Queen, which was fitting at Plymouth. It had taken this
rn' what, he would ask, was the state of things at ship three months to fit—she being at present fitting for
eine&esent moment ? The present was a Parliamentary a flag ship. It had been said that we could fitout a fleet in
ke_, on, and one which it was competent to Hon. six months. Now, in answer to this, he would just refer
iv.'ulserB who had voted money away to bring forward. to what had taken place in 1840, when it was found to
tait'e coMplaint was not that the Government had not be of the utmost importance to get a fleet ready of
hat?, a sufficient sum as an estimate for the naval force, the Mediterranean. 'The Vanguard was commis-
tax 'lle people having this burden to bear, having these sioned in February, and that ship did not arrive
beeensi t° Pay, ventured to ask if, in return, they had a in the Mediterranean until the middle of November.
Wee Power sufficient to meet any emergency. There The Caleutta was fitted out at the same time, but did
'e flier questions he might ask with respeet to the not arrive until December, and the remaining ships in-
blest eatunates, but he should be told perhaps-that the tended for the station never arrived at all. Now, he
Propec time to do so was at the time they were would ask, whether they could confide in the statement
tittilseosed. They had perhaps granted them with too of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he saii he could do
again incluirY, but when they came before the House what no other Government had yet been able to accome
t_ they, might perhaps have some questions to ask plish—Niz., fit out a fleet in six months? The French
of nuewhat wasbest to be done with respect to the building at the present moment had eight sail of the line in com-
lar w ships. It would perhaps be necessary to ask what mision in the Mediterranean—they had also ships which
ber ships were ready to be brought forward, or ready to were called commission de rode. These ships were well
the ruebed.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very glad if officered and manned. The French, too, had fifty-three
satiabecretary of the Admiralty-would be able to give a sail of the line on the stocks, which was just as good as
etatrtactory answer to this question ; but he had heard their being in the water. He had always held, and he
Zaents which led him to doubt very much whether held it still, that the system of commissioning and pay-
t4uld be able to do so. But with respect to the ing our ships off was neither wise, politic, nor economie
that Of before the House, it was totally distinct from cal. The expense of commissioning a ship and paying
foreign negotiations ; at the same time, he be- her off was very great. A ship was commissioned fora short
ed
beet that the objection stated bY the Right Hon. Ba- time, as occasion might require, and when the necessity had
aewas well founded—that although there might not passed away, she was immediately paid off, and she re-
niene;',Y. Positive danger, perhaps hardly any inconve- mained in ordinary until another occasion arose, when
m granting the information called for, yet it they were obliged to go through the same course over.
it In° itebe made a bad precedent at another time, when again. Now, under such a system as this, how was it
teeatgl be desirable not to give on authority a state- possible for young officers—our lieutenants and mates—
otejeeti thereforen of any particular force. That in the navy to learn anything of seamanship They
atly ion, , applying to any Government, and could not do it unless they were kept constantly at sea.
with hPese of Commons, would, he hoped, have weight One ship had lately returned from the Mediterranean,
fur th is Right Hon. Friend, and that. he would not press where she had been for three years, having
that _e Production of the informaien. But he must say been stationed at. Malta during that time.
ittot; with regard to negotiations, he should not be at all Now could the officers on board such a ship as
the (reed by any clamours that might be raised as to that learn anything of seamanship ? As far as the'
t "eminent being indifferent to the national honour. gunnery went no doubt they excelled, but of seaman-
leetieugland the Government were charged with neg- ship they knew very little. The Board of Admiralty
the the national interests and honour ; and in France had lately built six experimental brigs. He had hoped
°tal:each Government was subjected to the same to see those brigs sent out in which young officers had
'Moe to elle should be disposed to pay but little atten- been placed, in order to acquire some experience in their
tadike these statements, nor would they be sufficient to profession. This, however, had not been the case. He
tioes „Linn to take any step to interfere with negotia- hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet, who
pesitioulat might be pending. But with regard to the seemed to be a good deal influenced by obstinacy—.
eient of the country generally, he did think that suffi- (Laughter)—would yet honestly come to Parliament
tee., attention had not been paid to the state of the and ask for more men for the navy.
therJeTia(`: Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) He thought Lord INGESTRE could not agree with the Hon.
Ilstla)e,_-eat'lfobreucen a culpable neglect, and he should wish a Member for Montrose in saying that it was essential
maintained to sapport the dignity of the that our establishment should be reduced to the least
'a, and to avenge any insult. possible standard, for if they were to do so they would
34. AIILNES 'said he was glad that the Noble abolish the school in which our officers and seamen at-
Lord die
sent state" not view with any great apprehension the pre- tanned their experience. When the Hon. and Gallant
bond J.
of affairs in Morocco. Gentleman who spoke last alluded to the attack
was .L.RUSSELL said what he stated was, that he which was made upon the Government in 1839,
lirot. without apprehension. he must have forgotten that at that time
to ea, MILNES—He did understand the Noble Lord great fears were entertained of a Turkish war.
the ! that he' did not regard with any immediate fear The ships were now fully and efficiently manned,' but a
kerv',.esent state of the relations between France and very different state of things prevailed in 1838. He
tatet:c9 ; he, therefore, thought that he had rested maintained that the change in this respect was one of
of be; ltotaostroligly On what he thought the culpability great importance to the honour and interest of this
ova' f JestY s Government as to the amount of the country. Complaints were made in 1838 of the want of
autit,„"ree. The Noble Lord appeared somewhat too ships at home. It was of the greatest importance that
(4.11 to have the navy put upon a war footing, but he we should be ready for every exigency, and that the
at effe,_. lines) believed that whatever might be the aspect officers and seamen should be kept in a proper state of
teigtj"-5 at present, the Noble Secretary of State for Fu- discipline by cruising in the Channel. One reason why
the affairs would be so far equal to his predecessor in he had always maintained that ships should be suffi-
art 64
tillfOrt ° protocolising," as to be able to defer that ciently manned was, that in case of necessity the men
fessedlinate event for a considerable period. He con- might be made into two companies, and the deficiency
great t.,,r had seen the notice of the present motion with supplied by landsmen.
ttadergnea was of opinionthat
because he thought its purpose might be mis- Sir G. COCKBURN said he
of they
eoesid • It should be remembered that there was a should always keep up the number officers and sea-
for thFrable war party in France, and it was necessary men, but, at the same time, it was usual to lower the
bke' 18 COUlary to act with some' caution, so as not to armaments in time of peace, and it was for the Cabinet
ite that
French G Party, and thus increase the difficulties of the to decide, upon a calculation of the chances of war, whe-
erieeet overnment. He referred to the occupation of the it was necessary
•
Lion ila
bY the French his to have a large fleet, or
that ~ and stated convic- only a small oae.—(Hear.) Every officer in the navy
People it entailed a great loss on the French stated that the greatest inconvenience arose from having
then With. regard to the present operationa, the ships undermanned.
..He had always thought that it
disc he he should be the last to treat with was better to have one ship efficiently manned than two
thusit:
.14 sovereign virtues, and the reliious en- imperfectly.—(Hear, hear.) With reference to the
titre of the native population, yet he felts that the observations of the Noble Lord the Member for the City
Of civil when •
en tney must receive the advantages of London, he must say that although the force was not_
Price of alum, even if they should obtain it at the hard a largo one, it was respectable, and, as he had already
lthe whaiwar. He thought. that it was impossible that said, it was for the Cabinet to judge whether there was
erranea.the African coast, bordering on the Medi- any chance of war or not, and to act accordingly. The
of barha%criosuld any longer be abandoned to these hordes Gallant Commodore had referred to the sending out of
waronet He hoped, however, that the Right Hon. 1 marines in the Caledonia. The marines having been
would he would see that the best course he could adopt used to the great guns were quite as competent to man
owe ;7 I ithdraw the motion. And in doing so it them as the seamen, and therefore they had taken 150
b well if he would reiterate to the House in the !of each. All their ohips now carried very much

thought there would be the greatest possible difference
between those two motions. It should be recollected, that
if a motion were made to inquire into the mode in which
the French became possessed of Algiers, it would be for
the purpose of ascertaining the conduct, not of the
French, but of the English Government. No such
grounds existed with respect to Hong... Kong, and, there-
fore. :he held the cases to be entirely different. His
Right Ilon. Friend had been found fault with by some
for starting a question of such a delicate nature as this
while negotiations were still going on between England
and France; and it was said by the Hon. Member for
Lymington, that, considering there was a party in
France who were anxious for war with England, who
were likely to overpower the Government of France,
and compel that country to go into a war
with England. That being the case, it was very
inexpedient in that House to discuss our foreign
interests, or to inquire whether our naval establish-
ment was in a position to meet any sudden emergency.
He (Lord Palmerston) utterly denied the force of that
argument, and on the contrary, if such an argument
were propounded on the facr of the existence of such a
party in any other country, that argument would rather
lead to the opposite conclusion than that which bad
been drawn from it; for, assuming that in France or any
other country, there was a party likely to overpower the
Government of that country, and to compel that country
to commence war with Engla.hd—so far from that being
a reason for this country being silent on the subject, he
thought it was a reason for additional vigilance on the
part of the Government in securing the means of meeting
such an emergency. He discarded from him the considera-
tion of such a circumstance. He thought that House ought
not to permit itself to be debarred from looking to the
interests of this country, whether those interests con-
sisted of foreign commercial relations, or the means of
military defence, by any consideration as to the feelings
of persons in any foreign country. He hoped they would
always abstain from unnecessarily wounding the feelings
of any party or any country, or unnecessarily producing
irritation in our own; but he held that the interest of
England ought to be a paramount consideration; and it
was not becoming in that House to be deterred
from entering into the consideration of the conduct
of a Government by speculations as to how
it might agree with the feelings of this or that Govern-
ment, or the opinions of this or that party in any coun-
try. His (Lord Palmerston's) Right Hon. Friend had
taken a course which was perfectly legitimate. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite chose to assume that
his Light Hon. Friend had argued that the present Go-
vernment or the late Government ought to have called
upon France to evacuate Algiers. His Right Hon.
Friend had used no such argument. His argument was,
that looking at the negotiations which had taken place
in 1830 between the British Government and the Go-
vernment of France, with respect to Algiers, looking to
those negotiations, the Government of that day had not
properly performed their duty in getting security from
the Government of France; and, therefore, confidence
could not be placed in the energy and the vigilance of
the Government with regard to those negotiations. He
thought that argument a perfectly fair one, and if any
body would take the trouble of reading those papers
which were laid before Parliament in the year 1839,
which were very short on the negotiations respecting
Algiers ; they would see that this country had failed
entirely in extracting from the Government of France
those epgagements which were important to be obtained.
He thought they had a right to require
from the Government of France engagements,
formal, official, written engagements that, in
the event of the overthrow of the Regency
of Algiers, the French should not obtain any permanent
internal advantages or aggrandisements in Africa. As-
surances were given verbally, and everybody knew that
verbal assurances went for nothing, and were binding
upon nobody but the man that made them. The Go-
vernment of this country pressed the Government of
France to give written assurances, and that Government
wrote a dispatch to their Ambassador here, in which
they stated that, in the event of success, they would
make their views subservient to the wishes of their allies
with regard to the arrangement of the affairs of the ex-
isting Regency. The Government of this country still
pressed for written and specific declarations, but nothing
more specific was received from the Government of
France, and the expedition sailed without any specific and
written declaration being
.made. That expedition was
successful, and upon hearing of this, what did our Am-
bassador at Paris do ? On hearing of the success of the
expedition, he waited •on Prince Polignac, and
congratulated him upon the event, and expressed
a hope that now they had succeeded in their
expedition they would not fly from those as-
surances which they had given before the
expedition sailed. Was that the language which ought
to have been used by our Ambassador ? Prince Polignac
assured them that Trance had no inclination to depart
from her promises. If proper negotiations had been
entered into before the expedition sailed this would not
have been the language. used by either party. It might
•be said that the Government of that day were actuated
by a desire to keep in office the Ministry of Prince
Polignac, and by a desire to do something useful to the
dynasty then reigning. But everybody knew long before
the change took place which overthrew that dynasty
that it was inevitable. In the January preceding there
was no man who walked the streets of Paris who did not
well know what was about to happen ; but the existing
Government in this country did not attempt to obtain
any specific declaration in the four months succeeding
the change. Was it for them- (the late Government),
when they came into office in 1830, to take up a question
that had been left in that state by those who had gone
before them? Considering the existing state of Europe,
they did not think it was consistent with the interests of
this country that they should call upon France to eva-
cuate a country which they had lately conquered,
and conquered without any interference on the part of
the preceding Government. But the Right Bon. Gentle-
man himself had said that he did not impute any blame
to the late Government, and, therefore, it was not neces-
sary for him to defend himself or his colleagues in any
way on that point. He quite agreed with the Right
Hon. Gentleman that it was not expedient to go into
any details upon this question, as he knew how expres-
sions which fell from persons in office were caught at and
used injuriously to the public interest. He ab•
stained from entering into that question. It was,
however, one of great importance.—(Hear, hear.)
Much had been said with respect to the state of the
navy, the result of which was this :—The Gentlemen on
the other side when they sat on this were perpetually
taunting the late Government with neglecting the navy
of the country, by keeping it -at so low an ebb as to
render it impossible to be effective. Why, at that time.
they had twenty sail of the line, and yet at the present
moment, when by their own admission grave and serious
matters, which might lead to unpleasant results, were
under negotiation, they had only nine sail of the line,
three of which were in distant countries, so that
they had in fact only six sail of the line
in England. The present Government had not
carried out in office those principles of national
protection which they loudly called for when out of
office. Gentlemen on the other side of the House en-
deavoured to explain why this country had so few ships
of the line by Stating that several were in China, but
that was no excuse for the navy being in the state it was
at the present moment. Then it was said that if there
ships as there should be, they were
Why, theyany m
hadenthat been
they could n
told thatin some
ot
work.sm all
wfshTuehlirlpiesos,fnhtie thought,
eteysn' ohad
many
so m
showed that the present Administration
was not of a very judicious character. The late Go-
vernment had left the present a force larger than
they could want, and their business was to let
that force down to what they thought proper, but
that they had not done. A proper naval force was, in
his opinion, the best economy for England, because the
time might arise when it would be necessary. What, he
would ask, was better calculated to prevent other coun-
tries from treating England with insult, than the keep.
ing up of a sufficient naval force ? He trusted that what
had passed that evening, and the observations that had
been made on a former occasion, would lead the Govern-
ment to take a different view with respect to these mat-
ters, and that in future they would have a naval force,
such as would be considered proper for a peace estab-
lishment. Such an establishment could not be consi-
dered as a defiance to any country in the world,—it
was simply a defensive system of policy. Such an es-
tablishment was necessary, in order to keep up a good'
understanding with every other country in the world.
Whether his Right Hon. Friend would press his mo-
tion to a division he knew not, but he thought his object
bad been attained by the discussion that had taken
place. He must deprecate the imputations that had been
cast against his Right Hon. Friend of endeavouring to
prevent a good understanding between this country
and France ; he was sure that all who knew him must
be well aware that he had no such object in view.
The amendment of Mr. Sheil was then withdrawn.
COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PRUSSIA.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had some time since
given notice of his intention to move for the correspond-
ence that had taken place between the Prussian Govern-
ment and England relative to our commercial relations ;
he wished now to know whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be enabled to lay them on the table
before the end of the session ?
Mr. GLADSTONE said he was afraid he could not
produce them before the end of the session.
ROYAL ACADEMY.
Mr. HUME then moved for an humble Address to
Academy of Arts, she will be graciously
le
her Majesty, " That, as patroness and comptroller of
pleased
asiledToltake into consideration the laws and regula-
tions of that institution, with a view of rendering it
more conducive to the advancement of the fine arts,
better suited to the spirit and circumstances of
the present age, and more consonant with the originel
forward
trsw
ard royalthifs on o umn do et
i he wished it to be
r• George the Third."
intention
shown that there was a desire to promote the fine arts
ntenhtriionnging of
in this country. The Royal Academy had, in his
opinion abused the patronage of the Crown. George
the Third intended that it should be open to all, but
that intention had been altered by time. The trial that
had been given to the artists for decorations for the
New Houses of Parliament had done more for the arts
in this country than the Royal Academy ever since its
institution. It was founded on an erroneous principle,
as being self-elected, and gave no chance to rising artists.
He referred again to the original institution of the
Academy, and contended that it was meant to be open
to the public; be expressed his deep regret that this
state of things should continue, and concluded by moving
his resolution, leaving the House to deal with it as it
thought fit.
Sir ROBERT PEEL much regretted that the
Honourable Gentleman had not had the opportunity
of bringing forward his motion at an earlier period;
he (Sir R.Peel) might have been able more fully to
have expressed his strong sense of the obligations under
which this country was to the institution of which the
Hon. Member had spoken so unjustly. The Hon.
Member had mentioned the audacity of the President of
i the institution in having given an opinion as to the
exclusion of the public. NOW the Hon. Member ought

heavier guns than they did formerly, end it
was very necessary that they should be efficiently
manned. With very few exceptions the reports made
to the Admiralty,;_in reference to the ships which had re-
turned home, were perfectly satisfactory. They had
taken the engines out of the larger steam-vessels, and
put them into smaller ones, while for the former larger
engines had been provided. The Gallant Officer com-
plained of the want of experience on the part of the lieu-
tenants of the navy. Why, almost every captain, oa re-
turning home, told the Admiralty that there had never
been such good officers.—(Hear, hoar) He (Sir George
Cockbian) firmly believed that both ships and officers
were in good condition. They had a very considerable
force on every station, although, as they had the interest
of the British merchant to look to in every part of the
world, their force was much subdivided. It was true that
France had fifteen sail of the line in the Mediterranean,
but England had more ships ready for sea than France
had both on the stocks and at sea. With regard to the
long time which it took to man vessels, he begged to ob-
serve that the officers were very careful in their selection
of seamen, refusing as many as they received, in order to
secure an efficient force. He believed that if they had a
war with France, or any other maritime power, they had
quite force enough for that purpose.
Mr. M DRE O'FERRALL was exceedingly surprised
at the manner in which the Right Hon Gentleman -had
treated the remarks of his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing
could be more natural than that having been connected
with the late Government, as he had been, he should
take an interest in such a question.—(Hear, hear.) The
year 1838 had been particularly referred to, and he
begged to refer to the opinion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) expressed at that time. The
Right Hon. Gentleman complained at that time that
there was but one brig in the vicinity of. the French
fleet at the time when it was in the neighbourhood of
Mexico. Four ships were on their way at that very
time, and they were only. detained by adverse winds,
over which the Government had no control. A state of
things now existed as regarded the Mediterranean
which was very similar to that in ouestion.—(Hear,
hear.) The. Gallant Officer who had just addressed the
House had compared the complement of men in 1838.
Hewes prepared to show that the war complement fixed
by the present Board of Admiralty was less that that
fixed by the late one. Take the example of two ships,
the Collingwood of 80 and the Rodney of 92. What was
the number of men fixed by the present regulations for
those two ships? Why precisely the same under the
late Admiralty for ships of 80 and of 92 guns-759 men.
He denied that the larger class of ships were so well
manned now as they were under the late Government.
After all the results were the things to be looked at.
Now, he would first state to the House what were the
complaints of men in some of the great naval actions. In
Lord St. Vincent's action there were five 74-gun ships,
with an average of 575 men. In Lord Duncan's action, the
average was 554 to every 74. In the action at Trafal-
gar, Lord Nelson had sixteen third-rates, with an average
of 563 men each. Now a great deal had been
said of the wretched way in which the Mediterranean
fleet had been manned under the late Government,
and yet it appeared from the returns that, in 1840, the
the third-rates in the Mediterranean averaged 628 men
each, while French ships of the same class had only 598
men. Now he would ask if the calumnies which- had
been uttered against the late Admiralty were fair or just?
Another accusation which had been brought against the
late Government was that they did not keep up a suffi-
cient force at home. The Right Hon. Baronet had said
that seven sail of the line was too small a force to de-
fend our own ports; yet at present there was no flag ship
at Sheerness.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated, in the debate
of 1839, that Sheerness might be burned, and the Admi-
ralty aroused from their slumbers by the appearance of a
hostile fleet on our coast—that our liberties and our exis-
tence were in danger. It fact it was almost impossible
to over state all the nonsense that was uttered upon the
subject,and he trusted that no Opposition would hereafter
be guilty of conduct so disgraceful. He had no hesitation
in saying that he apprehended no more danger to
Sheerness, from there being no flag-ship there, than he
should be for the old palace of St. James's if the cap-
tain's guard were withdrawn. It had been an old cus-
tom to maintain a flag-ship at our naval arsenals,
and a captain's guard at our palaces—not that any danger
was apprehended - but what opinion would they enter-
tain of a Comtnander-in-Chief if he had so reduced:our
forces as not to be able to afford a captain's guard to
her Majesty's palaces, or a sentinel at the dock-yard
gates? Yet that was what the Ministry had done at the
present moment, when it was apparent from the cautious
manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman that-our foreign
relations were not so satisfactory as could have been
wished. The late Government had also been charged
with neglecting the building of ships. If the present
Government had thought the statements they, made
when out of office correct, why:did they not remedy the
error when they came into office ? Almost the first
thing they did was to reduce the estimates. The late
Ministry left twenty-six sail of :the line at sea, and all
the yards at full work.- A programme was laid down,
by which each shipwright was required to produce' a
certain quantity of work in the year. In that year it
had been calculated that eight steamers would be
built. Three had been launched, two were ready
for launching, and three were on the stocks, and
would have been launched during the course
of the financial year. They had taken a large
vote for steam, and the present Government had diverted
10,0001. of it to another object—the providing means to
extinguish fires in dock-yards, which might have been
provided for by a separate vote in the following year.
There was a deficiency of two-deckers in the navy, and
one had been set up, but the Gallant Officer opposite
pulled that one down, set a three-decker up, which was
not wanted, and now, at the end of three years that
three-decker was not-more advanced than the two-decker
was when it was pulled down. The Gallant Officer said
that they had produced fifteen steamers, and he recol-
lected among them a frigate, which had been converted
into a Steamer, an experiment which had failed; in
fact, the Gallant Officer wished to turn everything
into the system of thirty years ago. A great deal had
been said on the subject of their employing pensioners
on board ship. At the present moment there were from
twenty to thirty decrepid old pensioners on board the
Si. Vincent.
Mr. S. HERBERT—No, no.
Mr. .MORE O'FERRALL was glad to hear it.
All he could say was that he had his informa-
tion from a gentleman, who stated that be had con-
versed with one of these decrepid old men, who
had stated to his informant that he had been at sea 40
years. He hoped he bad not offended any foreign
power by his observations. It was not necessary to
make any boast of our force; there was no boast so
powerful as telling the truth. He had observed with
surprise an article on this subject in a Government
newspaper, which could not have proceeded from the
pen of a newspaper editor, and which, he hoped, had not
proceeded from that of a Government official, giving a
list of ships. Now, surely it was not necessary, in order
to make a show, to put in our list the names of sheer
hulks, and vessels avowedly useless. Our real force was
about 56 sail of the line, which could be got ready for
sea in five or six months at most ; and that was double
the force of any other two countries. But his Hon. and
Gallant Friend naked what was the use of ships, if we
had had not men? Under the late Government the
Perseus was moored off the Tower for the purpose of re-
ceiving men, but the present Board of Admiralty had
entirely got rid of her.—(Marks of dissent from Sir
George Cockburn.) He was very glad to find such was
not the case. There was a Bill before the House for the
registration of seamen—a most useful measure, although
he feared its provisions were too complicated. He should
like to see sailors' homes in all our great ports under
the protection of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Every
sailor was 'liable to impressment, and consequently had
a claim upon the public ; and if they provided him with
a home in every part when he was ashore, they would
be conferring a great benefit upon him, and doing that
which might be of great advantage to the naval service
of the country.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the circumstances
were different in 1839 from what they were at present.
We were then at the commencement of those differences
which led to the Syrian war ; and the argument of his
Right Hon. Friend had been that if it were necessary to
keep up such a large fleet in the Mediterranean, it was
also necessary to keep up a proper force at home. The
Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the manning of the Col-
lingwood. Now he could state, on the authority of the
captain of the Collingwood, that his difficulty was not in
procuring, but in selecting men. The Noble Lord, the
Member for London, had asked him about the ships
building. Now, during the two years in which they had
been in office, they had put thirty ships of the line in a
state of efficiency.
Sir C. NAPlER—That's not ship-building.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT—No ; but it was equiva-
lent to building new' ships. With regard to the state-
ment of the Hon. Gentleman as to the state of our steam
navy, he would observe that when the present Ministry
came into power the steam navy consisted of 14,000
horse power, and it now consisted of 28,000 horse power.
They had also increased the number of 50-gun frigates.
Among other improvements which the present Govern-
ment had introduced, was the making a marine corps of
artillery.—(Cheers.) The men of this corps were effec-
tive and vigorous men, and were in addition to the usual
complement of marines allowed to each ship. The flag-
ships were sent out every year fully manned. The Hon.
Gentleman had said that, according to the plan of the
last Government, none of these ships ought to sail with-
out a complement of 800 men. Now he could under-
take to say, that no ship under the late Government
had ever sailed with that full complement, and it did
not signify what she ought to have had, but what she
actually had. The present Government had increased
the actual complement. There were three ships more in
commission, and 2,000 men more employed, than in
1839. He thought the motion unnecessary, and should
oppose it.
Captain PECHELL exclaimed against the mode of
building war-ships—the present war-steamers were
awkward and unmanageable, and the most efficient of
them had been employed in Ireland collecting poor-
rates.
Mr. ROSS said a few words ; after which,
Lord PALMERSTON said the House was much in-
debted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the motion' he
had made. He did not think, after all, that it was open
to the objections which the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Governmen had made against it. In- fact,
the Right Hon. Baronet in the commencement of his
speech confined his critical observations not to the mo-
tion which had been made, but to the motion which had
not been made. The motion of which his Right Hon.
Friend had given notice had not even been put on the
books.. He was willing to admit that the present motion
was preferable to the former ; but ho did not
think the former motion deserved the censure the Right
Hon. Baronet had cast upon it. • The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said it was a motion to inquire into the manner
in which the French became possessed of Algiers, and
added, that a motion in the French Chambers to inquire-
bow the British became possessed of Hong-Kong would
be a legitimate course, Now, he (Lord Palmerston)

wished to know if that were correct? Nothing could
be more disgraceful than that a national monument of
this sort should-be indebted for its completion to foreign
aid. lle understood that the column had been curtailed
twenty or thirty feet from the inability of .the Com 7
mittee to obtain funds. In fact, this, as well as many
other public works recently undertaken, showed the ne-
cessity of a Minister of Public Works in this country.
Sir R. PEEL would call upon the House to bear in
mind that the erection of this monument was originally
a private affair: It had been proposed to erect a monu-
ment to Nelson on the same principle as the two monu-
ments to the Duke of Wellington, which had been re-
cently agreed, to, by private subscription. One of these
monuments was in the City, the other at the West-end.
He could not help thinking that a spontaneous subscrip-
tion would be much more agreeable to the distinguished
objects of it than a Parliamentary grant.—(Hear, hear.)
About 20,0001. had been originally subscribed to
the Nelson 'monument, but it was found to be in-
sufficient. The shaft of the monument was certainly
curtailed from that which was originally proposed, but
it was in accordance with the opinions of Sir R. Smirke
and Mr. Walker, who thought there would be danger in
case of a hurricane, and the fall of such a monument in
so crowded a thoroughfare might be productive of in-
convenience.-(Laughter.) Regarding the other ques-
tion, the donation of the Emperor of Russia, he could
only reply that it had been made before the Government
had control over the monument. It was then in the
hands of a private Committee. His Imperial Majesty,
wishing to mark his sense of the kind reception he had
in this country and to express his admiration of one of
her most distinguished heroes, presented the donation
of 500!, which the Committee, considering the slender
condition of their funds, did not think they should be
justified in returning.—(A laugh.) The gift was made
when the column was under private management.
After a feiv words from Mr. B. COCHRANE,
A rote of 7,5541. was proposed for the purchase of
ancient pictures for the National Gallery.
The -vote was then agreed to.
6,9001. was then proposed to enable the trustees of the
British Museum to purchase certain books, manuscripts,
coins, Sze.
Colonel RAWDON said there were enough manu-
scripts in Dublin to form memoirs of all the counties,
except two in Ireland. He hoped the Right Hon. Gen
tleman, at the bead of the Government, would give
some assurance that the publication of these memoirs,
would speedily take place.
Sir R. PEEL said there was every wish on the part
of Government to deal liberally with this subject.
It was, however, their duty well to consider whether the
demand for these memoirs would justify their publica-
tion.
After a few observations from Mr. WYSE, the vote
was agreed to.
A vote of 80,000/. was agreed to for the purpose of de-
fraying the expense of the British settlement and esta-
blishment at Hong-Kong.
A vote of 149,000/. for the disembodied militia in Ire-
land was also agreed to.
On the vote of 19,0001. for the repair of damage done
to the gunpowder manufactory at "Waltham Abbey by
the explosion,
Captain PECHELL asked what precautions had been
taken against Captain Warner in the new buildings ?
After what they had seen in the papers to-day there really
seemed to be no safety. Captain Warner had gone
to Brighton—he wished he had gone anywhere else—for
the sunken vessel would cause great damage to the nets
of the fishermen; The Gallant Officer opposite was
there—a party to the transaction—and he wished to
know if the Government would remedy the mischief it
had caused.
Captain.BOLDERO said he was there among forty.
thousand, as an amateur. He saw the vessel blown up,
but how it was done he could not tell.
The resolutions were then agreed to, and the report
ordered to be received this day.
SOUTH SEA COMPANY BILL.
The South Sea Company Bill went through Com-
mittee, and the report was ordered to be brought up
this day.
LAND-TAX COMMISSIONERS NAMES BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of the Land-tax
Commissioners Names Bill,
Lord WORSLEY said he objected to clergymen being
placed on the list, and he therefore begged to move, to
omit the following names for the division of Horncastle
and Hill, in the coumty of Lincoln :—The Rev. George
Thaekeray, Hemingby ; the Rev. Edward Walter,
Langton by Horncastle ; the Rev. Charles Terrott,
Wispington ; the Rev. John Fawsett, Horncastle; the
'
Rev. Francis Pickford, Hagworthingham • the Rev.
Edward Price, Hagworthingham ; the Rev. John
Thomas Maine, Harrington Hall ; the Rev. Henry
Fielding, Salmonby.
Sir G. CLERK said this was a most unusual course.
The Noble Lord had been requested to draw up a list
for the northern division of Lincolnshire, and in doing
so ho had omitted the names of clergymen. The Noble
Lord's colleague, who did not entertain the same objec-
tions, had likewise sent in a list containing the names of
clergymen. If they were not qualified for serving they
could not act without rendering themselves liable to a
penalty.
Mr. HUME objected to clergymen acting at all, and
would support the motion of the Noble Lord.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER and Lord WORSLEY, strangers were
ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when
there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 34
Majority against the motion —2l
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
GILBERT UNIONS.

not to have spoken in those terms of the delivery of an
opinion by an honourable man, perfectly independelit of
the Hon. Members of this House, who received no salary
for the duties he performed, and who devoted the whole
of his time to the performance of those public duties
and all who were acquainted with the manner in which
Sir Martin Arthur Shee discharged those duties must be
aware of his ability and zeal. The Hon. Member said
there had been a departure of the Royal Academy from
the original conditions on which it had been founded.
Now he held in his hand the original charter, granted
by George HI. in 1768, in which the number of the
members of the Academy was prescribed at forty,
having the power to elect their successors, there being a
provision for the public exhibition of paintings;
and by the 17th article it was evident that that
exhibition was not to be gratuitous, since it
was provided that the profits arising from that
exhibition should be applied to the purposes of the Aca-
demy, after deducting 2001. for indigent artists and their
families. He affirmed that it was to the Royal Academy,
and not to the House of Commons, that the country was
indebted for a national school of art. The whole con-
nexion which the Legislature had with the Royal
Academy was the adhering to the original charter, by
providing the Academy with apartments. George 111.
granted it apartments in Somerset House, and they con-
tinued there till the Government appropriated Somerset
House for another purpose. Earl Grey gave them apart-
ments in the building, part of which was appropriated to
the National Gallery. They did not ask for those rooms—
they did' not petition for them ; they merely received
what had been secured to them by sixty years' usage ;
and this did not give any Member of that House a right
to visit them with that annoyance which the Hon. Gen-
tleman had done. The Academy had spent no less than
300,0001. in the promotion of art. The Academy, from
its own means, provided a professor of painting, of sculp-
ture, and anatomy—not for their own purposes, but for
the general advantage of the arts. It gave gratuitous
admission to its lectures to all who chose to attend them,
and at its own expense it educated no less than 2,000
artists men who earned their money by the
hardest labour, commenced at the earliest period
of their existence. Having done all this, it was
too much for the Honourable Gentleman to turn
round upon them and call them monopolists,
and visit them with such censure merely because the
House provided them with the accommodation of certain
rooms. But the Academy also provided pensions for
decayed artists. From whom did Wilson receive sup-
port in the decline of his life ? Not from the public
who supported the widow of Hogarth and the widow of
the celebrated engraver Woollet. Not from the Crown.
Not from the Civil List. Not from Parliament. But
from those funds which wore appropriated to this pur-
pose.. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman what would
be the consequence if they carried their interference too
far. They would have no man, like Sir Francis Chantrey,
making a bequest, which was really a national
one, though given to the Academy, because
he felt it was a body independent of Parlia-
ment; and not subjected to continual interference.
Even the expense of an annual dinner was borne out
of the funds.. If they might judge of the institution,
not merely by the eminence of the men who belonged to
it, but by their moral character, he thought he could
not speak-of it in too high terms. He had been brought
much into intercourse with the members, and he knew
the difficulties with which they had to contend in un-
prosperous times. He saw them always exhibiting the
feelings and maintaining the independence of gentle.
men, and he did ,not know any class which ought to
stand higher in public opinion. He did hope that that
House would not sanction the:assault made upon the
Royal Academy by the Hon. Gentleman. The Royal
Academy entertained great respect for that House; but
they would infinitely rather sever all connection with:Par-
liament and with the Government, if they could only re-
tain their present apartments on the condition of
being subject to constant interference. He saw Gen-
tlemen opposed to him in politics, who had had
as frequent opportunities of judging of the merits of this
institution as himself, and he trusted that they would
join with him in deprecating this annual interference—
that they would permit - the Royal Academy to pursue
the honourable tenour of its way, and not risk the evil
consequences which he believed would arise to art in
this country if they undertook to carry too far the prin-
ciple of interference with that institution.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, after what the Right
Hon. Gentleman had so well said, he would only address
a few words to the House on the subject. He really
thought the Hon. Gentleman had no case whatever, un-
less he could show that the public had contributed
largely to the support of this institution, and even if
that were the case, it would be impossible to give a more
satisfactory answer to the Hon. Gentleman than he
had received from the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon.
Gentleman said that two-thirds of the pictures in this
exhibition were contributed by those who did not belong
to the Academy. Why., if they asked those who visited
the Academy which pictures attracted most attention,
they would find that they were generally the pictures of
those who either were, or soon became, members of the
Academy.(Hear, hear.) He was really surprised that
the Hon. Gentleman would go on agitating this question.
He hoped that those who were so deserving of the
public respect would not feel hurt at the manner in
which this question was being continually discussed.
He was sure the great majority of that House wished to
see them continue in the same honourable course which
they had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear )
Lord PALMERSTON said there was no country
which was provided with such an admirable school for
art without any expense, nor was there any country in
which the Government, as a Government, contributed
so little to art. Any one who had been to see the exhi-
bition now taking place in Westminster-hall, must have
been struck with the great quantity of talent in sculpture
which that exhibition displayed ,• and, on the other
hand, any one who went to Trafalgar-square must per-
ceive how inadequate was the space provided there for
the splendid models which required to be exhibited.—
(Hear, hear.) Everybody was aware of the lively in-
terest which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government felt in works of art, and he hoped that be-
tween that period and next year he would devise some
means by which this opportunity for the display of
public works would be greatly enlarged.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME then read a document of the Royal
Academy, stating that up.to the 12th exhibition nothing
was charged for admission. He could give a very
different account of the institution and of the advantages
derived from it from that which the House had heard ;
'but he would not trespass on the attention of the House.
Sir R. PEEL wished to explain the circumstances to
which the Hon. Gentleman had referred. George the
Third, seeing that the public would give nothing to this
institution for several years after it commenced gave to
it 5,000/. a year ; and that was continued until the Aca-
demy informed his Majesty that they could support
themselves by means of the exhibition.
The motion was then negatived without a division.
SUPPLY.
The House then went into Committee of Supply.
On the motion for granting 4,4111. for the schools of
design,
Mr. WILLIAMS expressed his approbation of the vote.
Mr. HUME complained that two Members of that
House had been refused admission to the Royal Aca.
dewy. He thought that was the height of impudence
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman was so good a
judge of impudence, that he would not dispute With him
on that point.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME said ho would not be deterred by any ob-
servations of that kind from continuing to pursue that
course which he conceived to be right.
Mr. WYSE would remind the Right Hon. Baronet of
what had passed on a former occasion, as to the pro-
priety of opening a gallery for the exhibition of casts
from sculpture. He had received two petitions for pre-
sentation on that subject, one from the society in Dublin,
and one from London. He believed that with the sub-
, scriptions and the donations which would be received, a
very small sum would be sufficient to form such a
gallery.—The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 2,006/. for the salaries of certain professors
in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge was then
agreed to. -•
On a vote of 2,345/. being.proposed for the salaries of
professors in Scotch. Universities,
Mr. HUME said that he approved of this vote, because
an account was furnished as to the manner in which the
money was expended, which was not the case with the
vote to Oxford and Cambridge, and of that vote, there-
fore, he disapproved..—The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 5,5004 was proposed for the Port Patrick
Harbour.
Mr.,HUME thought the vote of last year was to have
completed the work.
Sir GEORGE CLERK explained that this was the
balance which last year it had been stated would be
necessary to complete the work.
Lord NEWRY asked if the Hon. Gentleman had seen
a report of Sir John Rennie's on this subject.
Sir GEORGE CLERK had seen such a report, but
the Government had been proceeding upon the report of
Mr. Walker.—The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 6,0001. for the repair of the colleges of the
University of St. Andrews's was agreed to after a few
words from Captain LOCKETART.
A vote of 8,0001. was then proposed for the comple-
tion of the Nelson monument in Trafalgar-square. The
announcement of this vote by Sir G. Clerk was re-
ceived with loud cheers from all parts of the House.
Mr. WYSE wished to ask whether a proposition had
not been some time since made by an artist, named
Clarke, to complete the monument without charge ?
Sir R. PEEL said that certainly such an offer had
been made by that artist, but the Government reserved
to itself the right of considering the subject. He begged
to be uaderstood as not intending to say a word in dis-
paragement of the artist ; but, in general, nothing could
be so unwise as to accept these voluntary offers on the
part of artists.
Mr. WYSE agreed entirely in what had been stated
by the Right Hon. Baronet ; but at the time the offer
was made the Government had not come forward to
complete the work. There was a deficiency of funds for
the completion of the column.
Mr. GALLY KNIGHT hoped that the base would
be made in proportion to the height. The column had
been shortened some twenty or thirty feet, and the base
was out of proportion. When be saw such a statue,
with such a cocked hat—(A laugh)—he could not help
wishing that some more appropriate design had been
adopted of showing our veneration for the memory of
our great naval hero. Many persons Had taken the
figure for that of Napoleon, and this instance of what they
considered our national generosity had had a great
effect in allaying the irritation against us in France.—
(A laugh.) He wished to know whether the lion and
the other emblems, with which it was intended to adorn
the base, were to be reduced in proportion to the re-
duced size of the column ?
Sir R. PEEL begged to state to his Hon. Friend, that
the size of the lion was an open question.—(A laugh.)
The Government bad not yet decided on the subject.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said a report was prevalent
that the Emperor, of Russia had, whilst in this country,
subscribed 5001. towards the Nelson monument he

Mr. BARNABY then rose to move that three be a
quorum on the Committee on the Gilbert Unions.
Mr. BROTHERTON said this motion would lead to
discussion, and he should therefore move that the House
do adjourn.
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment 6
Against it..
Majority
Mr. BAIiNABY then proposed his motion.
Captain PECHELL opposed the motion as one that
was quite unprecedented. He thought it was a reflec-
tion on the Committee, as it implied neglect on their
part. He should certainly take every possible mode of
resisting the motion. He concluded by moving the ad-
journment of the debate.
Mr. WAKLEY thought the debate had better be ad-
journed.
After some short discussion, the motion was with-
drawn.
Lord ELIOT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to con-
tinue so much of an Act of the second and third years
of her present Majesty as enables justices to grant war-
rants for entering places in which spirits are sold, with-
out license, in Ireland.
Sir G. CLERK brought in a Bill to transfer the col-
lection of the duty on licenses to let horses for hire in
Ireland from the Commissioners of Stamps to the Cora-
miSsioners of Excise.
The House adourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock.

THE FESTIVITIES AT CA ENWOOD.—The grand
fete champetre to be given to-day by the Earl of Mans-
field at his beautiful seat, Caenwood, near Hampstead, pro-
mises to be one of the most attractive reunions which have
occurred throughout the season. The preparations are upon
a scale of great magnificence. Upwards of eight hundred invi-
tations have been issued, and-all the members of the Royal
Family at present in town have signified their intention of
honouring the Noble Earl with their presence. A magnifi-
cent tent has been erected upon the lawn, capable a accom-
modating upwards of five hundred persons, and it has been
arranged.t hat that number shall sit down to dinner at one time
beneath it. The Royal party will dine within the mansion,
covers being laid at the principal table for thirty-six persons.
There will be a grand ball in the evening, when the marquee
above alluded to will be converted into a salon de dance cir the
accommodation of the company.
LADY JOHN RUSSELL.—The illness of her Lady-
ship has caused much anxiety to the Noble Lord her hus-
band as well as to the Earl and Countess of Minto aid family.
The Countess of Minto came to town from Lord John Rus-
sell's residence, ne.arGodalming, in Surrey, on Tuesday last,
when Lady John Russell was considered by her medical at-
tendants somewhat better; and by the accounts received in
town on Saturday we are gratified to learn that her Ladyship
was improving in health. The Countess of Minto has left
town to visit her daughter.
THE WEATHER AED THE CROPS.—The fine genial
alternations of rain and sunshine by which the present week
has been distinguished, have tended materially to improve
the prospects of the approaching harvest. Much of the hay
has been already secured, but in passing along the country
few hay stacks are to be seen ; the barns have been found
generally sufficient to receive the scanty produce, but the
year's growth of grass is not exhausted, and the second cut
of clover, as well as the after-grass of the meadows, will, in
some degree supply the deficiency. The turnip-seed that
had remained dormant in the ground, now begin to show
itself in vigorous plants, though the crop will be small, from
many fields turning out total or partial failures. There will
also be a deficiency of straw from the spring-sown corn, and
the fodder for cattle in the approaching winter will be scarce
and dear. The wheat crops continue to look very flourish-
ing; they are already "white to the harvest," and they will,
according to present prospects, soon fill the granaries. In
the bean and potatoe crops we see little difference since last
week.—Leeds Meacury.
EXETER.—We are informed that, in eonsequence
of the completion of the railway to this city, the business of
the fashionable hotels in Exeter has not been so brisk at this
season of the year for a very long period. The number of
wealthy and distinguished strangers who are induced, by the
facilities of the present mode of travelling
.from the metro-
polis, to visit our-pleasant and salubrious city, being unpre,
cedented.—Exeter Gazette.
TERRIFIC THUNDER-STORM.—On Saturday after-
noon an awful storm of thunder, lightning, and rain, burst.
over the towns of Rochester and Chatham. About two
o'clock r.x., the wind, which had been south-west, shifted
to north-east, when the gathenng of heavy clouds indicated
the approach of a thunder-storm. At three o'clock the
wind blew a perfect hurricane, and the small craft in the
River Medway were forced to have their sails down, to
prevent their being blown over. Shortly after three
o'clock the storm was at its highest, the rain appearing to
be literally pouring down in so many streams, rather than
falling in rapidly successive drops, together with repeated
flashes of lightning, accompanied with peals of thunder.
When the storm burst forth, upwards of four hundred
recruits were on Chatham Lines at drill, and before they
could get to places for shelter they were completely
drenched. The lightning ran about the ranks of the troops
with awful vividness, and produced an effect of stupor on
several of the men. The storm lasted upwards of an hour,
and was accompanied by a severe hail-storm. The torrents
of water that ran into the High-street of Chatham, which
lies low, made parts of the road impassable. The parade
ground at Chatham barracks has suffered considerable injury
from the quantity of water that poured down from the ter-
race. The dockyard school for the apprentices suffered con-
siderably by the storm, the water having broken the roof of
the building. Such a violent storm has not visited these
towns since that awful one in August last year, when the
damage amounted to several thousand pounds. The storm
took the southeinly direction, and when it cleared up the
atmosphere was intensely cold. The wheat fields have sus-
tained some injury, the crops having been beaten down, 'and
as the corn is nearly ripe, it will be impossible for the ears to
rise again.