The Sun.
London, England, 1821-02-17 00:00:00

OF ADMIRALTY IN SCM:LAND.

TheLORDADVOCATE'MOVed that the report be
brought up.
Mr. CREEVEY objected to this motion. It was
very different from the subject which had been
last before the House. The object .no%v was
compensation only, and the Learned Lorftwho
proposed it gave the 'House no information what-
ever. respecting it. He had told them formerly
that the Parliamentary commissioners had Nom,
mended the abolition of these offices,.but
not told whether they had recommended compen-
sation. To -him (Mr. .Creevey) this topic- of
.compensation was one of great suspicion----(Hear.)
----If they were trustees for a private individual,
and not for a distressed people, they would ex-
amine every claim of compensation with great
care, and even with suspicion. AV holler compen-
sation ought or ought not to be granted should
be ascertained by careful iinspectio❑ of the facts.
lie'would therefore mote an amendment that the
report he brought up on Monday se'nnight, and
upon that amendment he:would-take the- sense
the ilouse.
Mr. KENNEDY said he had thought that the
.commissioners were- too much disposed to give
compensation.- If, however,-the recoMmendatibu
came froM them he would agree to it :•but as 'no
information of that kind had been given, Ire-would
support'_the amendment.

The LORD ADvocA'ri said he had no objec-
tion to. delay when the object IYas to obtain' in-
formation. But he would say, respecting com-
pensation in this case, that if Parliament thought
proper to abolish offices on the recommendation
or the commissioners, and the necessary and un,
avoidable effect was to deprive individuals of
offices with which they were invested for life, it
was but fair to give them compensation. If the
Hon. Member (Mr. Creevey) would consent that
the report should be brought up now, the consi-
deration of it might be delayed till Monday
se'nnight,

quest'on having been put a division was
called for, when
Lord CASTE' ItEAGII rose and suggested, that,
if the Report were brought up, and tl►e further
consideration of it postponed until Monday week.
that arrangement +►light answer the purpose of
the Gentleman opposite.
Mr. CREEVEY assenting to this proposition the

Report was brought up, and ordered to be fur-
ther considered on Monday week.
On the motion of the eIiANCELLOR of the Ex-
cntouca, the Committee upon the Flax and Cot-
ton Acts was postponed until Monday.
ARMY ES MIATES.
Lord PALAERSTO4 presented thck-Army Esti-.
mates..
I,lr. IfUME askN, 'w:hetlNANverei's meant fi:)
lay"b'efore the Plohse.apy Iretuln of-the Sate of
Old Military Stores, of which no account had
been presented within the last eleven or twelve
years ?

I Lord ParenEnsroN observed, that no.such Re-
turn was ever included in .the -A.,riny. Estimates.
.Mr..l-lemesaid, that he. was quite.aware of the
fact stated by the Noble Lord, but he would
maintain that the Return to which he had alhid-
edought to be laid before the 'House.
-to move the Army Estimates in the Committee of
Supply
u1;:lpor:..:I1141::°:'-',NaltnEhr:171.d.o6asNye *gtfooaivrrteit.:::hettic.hti's°rprhoismiiisiet:n. mtioll-
- he _
staididri,usfu!Oplpl
toirlitsedsulalbisil -eiJci subject,
s at the public expense,
ittnih}te:i
lattictdict:eii:sissits
opflov sits,
loil be lipev
eufrialeci
iicl!di,teybyousittle°eduslp(tieocbieall:l:yeirra6trordyetlilaionstdeo , •
ysceiaernst,ifiac
gprietarstlifilt.
,ese— ldolineofwiansgiaews-sail.evatstiaaltl,6ewiptliattoe
those who-visited the Museum anerely for the
gratification of curiosity, no less than 5L,000 hav-
ing been admitted . within the last year ; .but
what he had to complain of was the.---difiiewityor. ,
admission on the part of those wb_o for literary -'
and scientific pnrposes.were desirous to examine .
the library, to have access to the roding,roorn, -
or to see the several collections ,of minerals,
'prints, drawings, and coins: In France aul t
the other 'continental nations, the utmost free-,
dOm of access was allowed to strangers who desk-
ed to see similar collections, and 'he could not ..
think it, honourable to the character of this
country that, a different practice preVaited here, ''
If it wete'said, that from the
lieei.ialueolfetfh:isreedc,oilte
.lecOons,at the Museuii o
would be imprudent to expose them to tl'e ac-
cess
of strangers, he shintld say in answer, that .
an .additional number of officers ought to be ;,p-
-pointed to ' take care of them.. This vertain-ly•
would be a much less exceptionable arrangement -
than the existing restriction upon- the admissikm
of strangets. But the appointment of additional •
,t,
officers' would be unnecessary, if it should ap-
pear that the - Museum had 'already several offl- 1
leers receiving salaries without pay 'corresponding •
I duty to perforrn; With a view to ascertain- that,
he proposed to move for a return of the salaries f'. '
and extra-service money paid to the several off-
''
•cers of the Museum. At present the..admissions- .i
to which he referred could not -be obtained by
any one who did not procure the certificate of
the Trustees, or -who was not knoWni to one of
the officers of the Museum ; and considering the.
large sums ;which had been pant frem the peblic.
purse for the establishment and maintenance of
this institution, he Must say, that those grant 9 :
were very improvidently made, should it turn
out, that instead.of being found available fora /,.
tpublic purpose, it was merely an establishmet,t
I for the gratiScation of private favour or indiv:-/
dual patronage. The lion. Member conclude&
with submitting his motion for the producciiiiiitr
a Return of the .Number of Persons admitted to
see those Collections at the MuSeniu to which he
had referred,
.within the last five years, .
Mr. LONG said, that as a Trustee of
Idle Bri"
tiSli Museum, be bad not the slightest objection
to let the House, and the Honourable Gentleman
have all the, information he require-A. But on
the part of those Gentlemen who had the conduct
of that Institution,-he' begged to say, that the
Honourable Gentleman was much misinformed,
in stating that, however: ,rigid the restrictiong
Might 'appear in words, they were _ever
.found
harsh or illiberal iu.practicc. Ile could, indeed+
say that in his experience as a Trustee, he did
not know a single case in which in applicant, ~situ
had a fair. claim,. was ever refused admission ti".
any of the collections referred to by the Iliymtv-
trialeblee
collections Gentleman.
11, a
sB considered,ut l‘'leift-Itiorietgi.iroeenapltdu viilitTiilcuetel::
doubt that the house would feel that some dl':- '
"crimination'in the admission of strangers wastac; . .
cessary on the part -of those to.whose "re, bad
,I
were entrusted. The Honourable -Move' in„
„Al..- 11-")0:7): Royal' .
heard, that in consequer
admission of stratigers, considerable loss had bee4l
e
sustained. • .
bssicijobtaukreatecc°ll3l.alos;r:,ittttle}:(l:::ilCvrtl;) facilityr
b,ilauliot(:drile:lete;ritcob();:ra4ittrinlei s Gi
aleini
stclreict:lai :alit:
Messrs: 11. G URNEY, 811 l GMT, and COLLIZ. 11"",
bore testimony. to the general conduct of the
Museum, and particularly to the talent and_ cOur.
,tesy of its several officers. -
Mr. CGLpURNE expressed'an oxinionthat 1011,,---
the dilapidated state of. the
'present buildin%.;,ia
new one ought to be erected, adding, that he " '0
no doubt the 'liberality of Parliament • 1r0a.,! :
readily grant an adequate stn. ror tine purpose'
He recommended a new building, becauFe he I''';,,
led to conclude that no systeni-of reyairs col"
Serve to render the preSent' building, permanen-
Elf
suitable for its object.
Mn.r G un
d to v
Mr: BANRES also testified to,the' good conduct
_
‘iNt.thdynt recommended e
Iris motion.
tis Honourable
.
Frie .
of the Museum and its N everat ofeers., concurrol
with the, last Speaker in
:thinking that sef
"
v.c.::11
parts of the Museum ought to be relnii:t, %I
might be done gradually: •
edla'behoCl:ei,,NtCilEart.J.
fromO R ofut,ihnaetEiLin:Eca.irell.: Ps-Nartirc'isi:L
both sides 'of the House, the Hon. GentlenV
s
would see the propriety of withdrawing
motion,
'The Hon. Mr..I3ENNeT declared his approba-
tion of the conduct of the Officers of the: IVIu7
..
.. , ..i
:eitryt, wino particularly evinced their juogrnt
c';ltti,llllriliito.lsciiotiyut
-r ctt,eorsnysttariaifitliegi:l,:i-sfl.iolig the tali.' ea. tivfiaerakt itiOsn a-
orrltielse
Mr. SI-KSS made some observations, 'which
we-re not d:stioctly• audible, upon the practice 9f

i

demanding, money from persons visiting West-
minster Abbey; •••'' • • -
After a short reply from ,Mr. LENNiltli; the
attotiort was agreed-rto.-
ORDNANCE ES'T'IMATES.
Mr. Hunt rose, to call the attention- of - the
House to the Ordnance .Estimates,. 'which were
now submitted to the House, and to exlain the
reasons which had induce d him to bring. tpS5l
ki I
ject before the House;, He believed he should
be able. to convince the House, before he sat
down, that from the commencement of the late
war up to the present time, no reduction what-
ever had taken place in the Ordnance Depart-
ment, notwithstanding the statement which had
With
made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—
Wrth respect to the manner in Which the Esti-
rnates of that department were made out, he
could assure the -House, not only upon his own
authority, hut upon the authority of 'every Corn-
' Tnittee which had been appointed to examine and
report upon the subject, that it ivas calculated to
convey no information whatever as to the items. The
Itouse,in point of fact,never had ally account of the
expenditure; they were called upon to vote certain
Stuns upon anEstimate in anticipation of the current
Year,.and then at the end of the year the estimate
s
brought before-them in the gross, with scarcely
any detail or specification of items. The House
'would be surprised to find that, upon a compari-
son of the Estimates for the last ten or twelve
:Years, in no one instance did the -Estimate brought
before the House correspond with the amount
charged in, the Finance Account. He would take,
for instance, the three -last-years ;- the Estimate
for 1817 was 1,189,0004, and the sum charged in
n the Finance Accounts for the year ending Ja-
buary- sth, 1818, was 1,435,000/., the difference
ebtween the Estimate and the actual expenditure
ing 246,000/. In 1818, ,the Estimate was
1; 200,0004 and the actual expenditure 1,400,0001.
In 1819 the Estimate was ooapopi. and the
amount in the last Finance Accounts was
;12 5,387°001. being a difference of 400,0001. which
Auto in no way been accounted for. in that House.
These facts alone ought to induce the House
call for a strict account of the manner
"1 which these sums were expended. There
was another view in which this subject should
be considered. In order -to ascertain at what
rate the expenditure might be reduced, for re-'
duced it must be, it was .necessary that the
house should have some points of corriparison,-
and with this view he would compare the present'
rate of r
expenditure with the expenditure at a
given period before the last war. He requested
the attention of the House to-the expenditure of
the Ordnance Department in the years 1791,
?:7923 17D3, compared with that of the years
1818, 1819; and 1820. In 1791-the expenditure
li-as 506,0001.; in 1792, 419,0001.; and in 1793,
1.,135°°0/.; so the 'average expenditure of the
'-ree Years was about 440,,000/. Let the House
la Pare this with the expenditure of the three
Years. In 1818 it was 1,400,0001.; in 1819,
m: °l Was 1,500,000! ; and in the present year it
aid be 1,501) would be found,
Itnh fact, that the estimatelt of I_B2o exceeded
Aso- estimate of 1819' by nearly 200,0001.
IL. the estimates were now laid before the
)11Sg)
ber t
par o itseas quite impo sajble for any Mem-
"" what was going on in this
;rot
and he should therefore lay a
und f,se2 his present motion by stating a few
Items, in order tosheW the. House to what extent
n H
l'etrenchment was practicable. e should be able
1,
tde course of this inquiry' to satisfy the House,
that no sooner was any retrenchment made in one
department, than the amount, and more than the
'amount of that retrenchment; was immediately
Lthied to dome other department. The salaries
Artillery department amounted now to
r--471. more than the sum declared to be sufficient
.ill‘the 13th Report of the Commissioners of Mi11,,a.17
,,a.17 Inquiry! In the year 1782, the whole of the,
1"11 establishment,. hiCluding the Tower and
14`I-rnall departments, was only 38,000/. In
' °G, When the Finance Committee laid their Re-
'fort
before the House, it was returned at 51.,618/.;
t,,,,,1805, it was fixed at 91,000/. ; in 1808, the.
.3° --fixed became 104,000/.;. and six months
twser, it amounted' to one hundred and twenty.;
th thousand pounds; We were now arrived at
este ks,ixtb year of peace, and. so far was this
Ail aulishment from having been reduced, that the
Thlgle item of the Tower and Pall-mall Depart-
\:at 'was nearly treble. What it was"' in the
irari il-:7o6.—There was a charge of 30,000!.
Iviell'tles for length of services, a great part of
Sum was given to the very individuals Who
fall. ed -13,0001. charged for Me' Tower and,
"" • - n•that this establishment,ar .
p, tintnt , s.
u formed didnot receive 20,000/., was now.
the y
receipt of 73,0001., a yea'!.-(Bear, hear .)
ilyersun-1 charged under the head of Gratuitics
fpm .
(.7d the serious attention of the House. t.
in th 2,3004'was first granted under this head'
I' -e oni Year 1.796, and it was expreSly stated to
v
the- e temporary and granted. on account of
xi,l„ustraordinary increase in the price of pro-
iraaacti "
et the House mark the.progress:of this
frtb:n the' The sum was gradually increased
to 8,000.. 1 796 till 1812, when it amounted.
xt I:ne next year it became 9,6001.,1he
Year 10 00
so 3 Oi then 15,00 ,
4, RII till
1114, the Ix.' now amounted to • 30,0001. And
granted - "Ilse would- observe, was a sum
them'
to tO this Department to enable
meet the
rise in the
Price pressure of - a temporary
• of provisions! The Honourable Member
Zeoceeded to quote a passage from the 13th;
nii•l'Qr"- of the Commissioners of Military In-.
lent,-In', recommending a reduction in this depart-
After this recommendation he certainly,
rld not praise the discretion of the Master-
4?re eueral of the Ordnance..He begged to call
attention of the house to the conduct of the
Noble Duke.--lii the year 1796, the Private
Secretary of the Master of the Ordnance, who
Performed no services for the public, and was
~tnerely engaged in the private affairs of the Mas-
-I,er-Ceneral, received a salary of 3001.- a year.
rile salary of this Private 'Secretary had been in-
creased to 2,0001. a year, and the last Corn-
Mittee of that House made a great merit of
reducing it from 2,0001. to I,AOO/. a-year.—
The_ salary of the Poblic Secretary of the Mas-
ter-General of the Ordnance had been

creased fourfold, the office of
iris Inder-Se-
cretary having been .-declared useless, by a
Committee of that ilonse; had been abolished, 'Mit
dia,the House.,suppose that the salary of 3004. a
year was therefore Saved' to the country No ;
there _happened to, be two Clerks zn the' Office,
and the 3001. a year was actually divide-a be-
tween them.----(Hear, hear'. ,andlaughterThe
same profuse and 'profligate ,expenditure took
place in every other branch of: thi's Department.
.The Storekeeper at-Dover .had .received a salary
of 5001., and had now retired upon a pension of
3301. a year.—The llonourable Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Ward) had not denied the amount
of the salary, but he, • (Mr. Hurrie) was' sorry
to hear ,him contradict the statement of the
Storekeeper having retired, beCause he- must
have known that a person named Langley, a
Freeman of Queenborough, was . appointed
to succeed him. The salary of the Storekeeper
at Dover, in the year 1706 i when he had much
more duty to perform 'than at the present
time, was only 1201., and it had been progres-
sively increased till it was now 500/. a year.
The Hon. Member went on to chew that the
amount of expenditure had increased in the same
proportion in the "Colonial Departthents, by a
comparison of items' in the year 17962 and at the
present time, at 'Malta,' Gibraltar, Barbadoes;
and the, Cape of GoOd Hope. There was a charge
of 30001. a year for an -establishment for 'the ma-
nufacture of gunpowder -at Fevershani, where
there was not a single barrel of gunpowder. In
point of fact, the mills at Feversham had been
let. In .1819, -at the period when there was
much boast of economy, and after those mills
were let, anew clork'; of the name of Mackenaie,
was appointed.—(Hear,hear !)—More than that,
a Captain Hely was appointed an Inspector of
Gunpowder, although there was no gunpo`ii'der
to inspect.—(A lough.)—lf -the' Establishment at
Feversham was got rid of, the Country would

of only save 46001. a year, but it could dis-
..

•
pose of the houses—for there, as well as at
Sheerness, the various clerks have houses ; not
that they reside there, but they rent them out to
others, particularly at Sheerness, the clerks them-
selves residing alQucenborough.—(Hear.)—Even
at Sheerness, an assistant, who had only two
rooms, lets them out to a keeper of convicts, and
resides himself at Queenborough. It was to be
observed, that the Ordnance Clerks were suffered
to vote at elections ; it would be for-the House

to consider upon what grounds those persons
were thus.qualitied,when persons holding similar
situations in the Customs and the Stamps were
incapacitated.--(fiear,hear, hear !)—There were
three vessels employed in the Ordnance depart-
ment at Sheerness. Two of the Masters were,
Jurats of Queenborough;-0 laugh.)—there
were seldom more than one mien on board of

them in time of peace, as they scarcely ever made
a trip but in carryicg wood, the property of the
public, to
,places where it had no riga-to be
sent. Besides, there were the floating magazines,
kept up at a considerable expence, and which
never could be wanting, unless on some pressing
emergency. The powder kept on . board must
be deteriorated. But, as a proof of the sacrifice
that was made inthat department to election
purposes, the sixty-six persons receiving wages
on beard that craft were all Freemen of
Queenborough.--(llear, hear, hear !)-7-lle
must, say that, such a disposilion of ,the public
money was corruption in its broadest sense.—
In the Duck-yards, if a poor labourer took two
brass nails .he was- liable to transportation, but
he could prove the fact that • Storekeepers could
take them away with impunity in hoats-full.-:---
(Hear, hear o—At -Waltham Abbey there teas

for the establishment 1,1131.; for repairs 7,0001.;
although not a thousand barrels of gunpoWder
were manufactured there. There was another

item of 45,0001. for gunners—how they were dis-
posed it was impossible to understand. At Wal-

tham Abbey there was said to be stationed a Ser-
jeant, who kept a grocers' shop nine miles otr.—
At Woolwich 4,0001. was paid to Clerks, a
sum that exceeded the amount paid to all the
individuals employed us artificers and labourers.
--In these Estimates there were five items to the
amount of 35,0001. for taking accounts of old
stores. That money, he understood, was expend-
ed amongst persons especially sent from head-
quarters to the out depots, although each of

these had its own local establishment which
could discharge the duty. He begged to call
the attention of the Hon. Member connected
with the Ordnance (Mr. Ward) to one observa-
tion. What, he wished to know, prevented the
returns of the Artillery and the corps of Artifi-
cers and Engineers ,from • being laid before the
House in separate regiments, in_the same manner
as the regiments of the line in the Army Esti-
mates ? It would afford the House great facility
in understanding the details. He saw no objec-

tion to such a:system instead of the return now
made in the lump. lie next referrea, to the
Civil Establishment of the College at Woolwich,
which cost the country 7;7801. The Cadets had
been/reduced by the present Master-General
from 150 to 1,30, but he considered they were
still too numerous: .With a half-pay amounting
to 300,0001., and so many young officers anxious
to be employ-ed; he thought it not only expensive
but injurious to the young men ihethselves to keep
thatestablishment so high,partieularly where there
were not fifty commissions in the year to be granted.
In'the charge unaer 'Ow heads of ".ExtraOrdina-
rks" there was no other explanation 'but 'three
words, viz'. Repairs, Current Services, and Con-
tingencies, while the amount was WB,OOOl. The
charge for old 'Stores was 40,0001. at the very
'moment, too, when they were selling most valua-
ble stores. He trusted the House would obtain
some information as to the Irish' Establishment of
the Ordnance. The -expellee of 'that at Dublin
amounted to 7,0001. while the amount of the ex-
penditure for the artificers and labourers through
all Ireland did 'not- exceed 6,7001. In the .stating
all these particulars; did not blame the Ho,.
nourable Member. He found 'fault with the
system. The important fact was to 'be recollected,
'that these officers received larger pay at that
moment than during a period 'of extended warfare
when 10 per cent.lncome Tax was deducted from
their salaries. Taking also the increase of the
value of money at 0. or3o per cent., he might

say that their salaries had .hi-en inCroased full
40. per cent.,----(Hear !)-4-12 had
_no hesitation,
in saying, that under a prOper •Systerr4 he could'
see his way to a 'Peal:talon' df the 'resent galling
taxation 'to the amount of five Millions..., Ile
recommended that consideration to the Noble
Lord Opposite (Castlereagh). Lee him not.. be
deteived: by 'any apprehensions -of the loss of',
patronage, for he may. depend on its that the
fewer good things of that kind he had -to give'
away, the greater the favour would be in -the dis-
tribution.---:-He then 'proceeded to remark 'npon
the list of compensations, and said it 'contained
the names of many persons who had not served
loner periods than two, four, or five years.
This, however, was quite consistent- with -the
whole of the' system which he had felt it his duty
to point out thus minutely' to the attention of the
House ; he trustedl there would be no objection
to the moaon which he 'was now: to submit, and
if the lion. Gentleman opposite thonght proper
to concede the information required by that mo-
tion, fie hoped thedetails-wonld.be.printed at once,
and in such a way as to afford the information in the

most salisfactoty shape. lie:concluded 'by moving
that the Ordnance Estimates-for the present year be
submitted' to 'the House in detail, disthignishiug

in separate columns the amount of salaries to all
officers, with the particular salary to each', the
amount of expence in each department, with the
total amount of the whole, distinguishing. every

new (Alice since the year 1-793; also that returns
he made in separate Columns 'of the• increase of
salary and compensation to each-otlicer since the
year 1796.
Lord NUGENT seconded the motion.

Mr. WAnn said, that the details reggired by

he motion, when every particular should be en-
,ered.into in such a way, that not a single figure
could be kept back, would produce extrenie
'convenience,
,and create much useless trouble.—
He had eXpected,_ that this subject would have
been discussed in the regular course of Cam-
mittee, and not in single speeches between the
Honourable Gentleman opposite. and ' himself.
According to the us.lal and regular practice, the
Estimates had been laid on the table ; but he was
disinclined to furnish a separate paper for the in-
formation of thellonourable Gentleman and if the
House agreed to that, he should have no objection
to the motion. lie had hoped, that he should, not
have had to enter into the details then, but after
the speech of the Hon. Geatleman, containing, as it
did, some correct statements, and some others
very incorrect, he was much-surprised to find,
that such a speech had followed the notice that
had been given ; he did not deny the right which',
the'Hon: Member had to enter upon the subject,
but, lie could not help stating, that nothing could 1
be equal to his astonishment on -finding that he
was involved in such a discussion after the notice
by which the motion had-been preceded, The
Hon. Methber had: chosen to go into a•very mi-
nute detail indeed ; he had commenced with the
first article in the Estimates of 4`2,0001. of Salaries
to Officers of the Tower and Pall-mall. Ile
(Mr. Ward) had not their any .paper or do-
cument to which to refer, he had nothing
to trust to except his memory, and yet the
Hon. Member had come down backed by his
friends, and elaborately prepared for the.discus-
sion,.; but no man had ever imposed a task so un-
reasonable on -another as he'hathin this instance,
by making it necessary to follow the-course of his
statements. If he (Mr. Ward) stood upon his
right, he wOuld, under these circumstances, give
such.an answer as lie might without any docurrieitt
whatever; however he would endeavour to follow
the -Right Honourable Member, and to sheW
what a great deal of incorrectness he had been
guilty of in many of his positions. In his very
first observation there was the greatest inaccuracy.
It was astonishing,notwithstandi-T the very great
industry which his speech evidenced, that lie could
have erred so far from the truth. Nothing more
surprised him than to hear it boldly asserted, that,
the reduction of the Estimates ,of this year upon
the last. Was but 30001. I f the Hon.-Gentleman
would'look to the .paper-again, he would find that
the amount of that reduction was 53,0001:
(-Hear, hear !)—The Honourable Member had
also said, that the amount of the Estimate for
this year wa5.1,500,0001.
_

Mr. Humr said, that he stated it at 1,327,0001.
Mr. WARD appealed to these who heard him ;
but_said, if the lion. Gentleman now thought pro-
per to retract, he had no objection ; but never-
theless he had stated that the Estimates were
1,500,0001., and the reduction • but 3,0001.;
whereas the fact was, that the Estimatvs amount-
ed to little more than thirteen hundred thousand;
while the reduction was fifty-three thowand.—
lie then went into the particulars of reduction,
to shew that the fact was as he had alleged ; and
On summing up the items to the amount of 3,000!.
said, he saw the lion. Gentleman shake his head;
but if he could then disprove what he advanced,
he should sit down to hear his refutation.

Mr. ft U. 34 1:-Go_on.-(Crie-s of order.)

Mr. WARD- continued, and said, that •on this
point his position was impregnable ;noless a sum
than •53,0001. 'had been saved .On the estimates of
laSt. year ; and, considering. the boldness with
which the Honourable Gentleman had stated that
the amount was but 3,0001.„- some idea might
be formed.of the accuracy ofOther-a.ssertions 'in
whicli he had so rashly and 'so profusely -indulg-
ed. It.was natural to 'think that his misttikes
had been rather hurrierous in the course of the
observations on -Which he had ventured, when he
fell into so gross an- error at the very
(Hear, 'hear, hear !)—What authority could
then be given to his statements, unless itideed
he thought proper • to quote 'his authority ,?Ue
said he' had founded many of his observations
upon -the Report of the Finance Committee, but
he (Mr. W.) must inform him, that the Report
of Finance Committee, when not followed up
by any act or resolution's of the House,- was not
chargeable on mi.', of the patties, while 'it *as
but the opinion of
.the Members of the Commit-
tee ; •be• Must be allowed to say, that the heads
of those departments to which. their Opinion ap-
plied, were as good Judges as tkey --sVOT of how
the business of their respective offices should be
dope. He did not object to any argUment being
founded upon the opinion of the Vinatice•Com-
mittee, -lint' he, protested agailist their Report

being, argUed upon As It It wag a Resointion or
that.Hol4e4 or the, laq of the land. The Ho-
nourable 11,Urnbe-c had objected to the article
of the !rivants of -cavil -Officers, and his Objection
was founded- upon the recommendation of the
Finance Committee, hut, he past tell him that
this •was a system of thirty ypars standing-, and it
wits one of the modes of remuneratingrollicers,

,to allow them the advantage of having a la-
bourer as a servant. It .was, ie feet, part of the
emoluthent of their office.-- He did -not contend for
the propriety of the systein,'hut such it was, and
the- person at the 'head of -the department was
disposed to do away with it, and had actually
put it in a way of being cured as this was a
perquisite of the civil office enjoyed for 30 :years,
the Noble Duke (Wellington) did not
,Propose
to deprive any one of his legal right, for such it
now was, but he had determined that no man for
the future should be allowed the same privilege.
(Hear I)—There was an lion: Member had
itated an isolated fact, which he- Would then
take notice or. :He: said, ;fiat the storekeeper of
SheerneSslook possession:Of things to which he
had no right, and argued that this was the gene-
ral practiee, while a poor labourer Might be
transported for taking a brass nail. This fact,
if it ever did Occur, ought not to have been
lightly made the foundation on which to build so
serious a charge against the Department. Of the
fact he was himself in total ignorance ; if it was
true, the officer must be punished—the inevitable
consequence must be the loss of his situation,
and toiler consequences 'not at all aereeable to
the delinquent.=----(aear, hear !) t would,
therefore, have been much more decorous in
the Honourable. Member to have made this, fact
known to the headSof that Department, -in or-
der that the due punishment might be inflicted
on the offender, than to reserve it for the pnrpose
of helping out a subject of declamation in that
Hoese.—(Year, hear I)—The Hon. Gentleman
had been, throughout his.speeeh, so exceedingly
desultory—ehe had so bounded from one topic to
another—had been so -immethodical in his pro-
gresi—so confused in his statements—touching
upon one thing and then flying otl' to something
else, without allowing the oppressed faculties of
his hearers the benefit of one moment's clearness
and order, that he (Mr.NV.) must be excused, if,
in following him, he lost sight of method also, for
the desultory manner of the arguthents: which lie
was forced to pursue must be his apology. He
bad stated that the heads of departments, while
they reduced the salaries of clerks of-SO/. or 901.
a year, raised their own salaries ; now the fact
was, that the Salaries of some of those principal of-
ficers were, on the contrary, lowered. He bad
stated that the salary Of the Master-General of
the Ordnance had been
_raised ,from 1,5001. to
3,0001. a year, and he argued upon the Myr°.
priety of such an addition at a time when there
should rather be a decrease. When the lion.
Member gave an account of his own speech to
the public, as he owned to him (Mr. W.) that
on a former occasion he -did, when that account
was -more 'incorrect,—(a laugh,)—there was no
part of England which that speech might reach,
where it might riot ire supposed that the Duke of
Wellington:had -raised his own salary,-:---(Hear !)
—or- that it had been so raised by his pre-
decessors, Lord Mulgtave or Lord Chatham ;
but the fact was very different—the salary
of the Master General was 15001. a year,
from the reign of Elizabeth to the period of the
uniou with Ireland. There was before that
period a Master General of the Ordnance- in
frelafid, but after'the• Union the offices were
united, the two Boards were consolidated,
.and
the salary doubled. • This took place in the year
ISo2—(hear, hear!) ; 'he heard
.the Hon. G'en-
tleman cry hear; why, then, did he not state
this, tied not leave it in such a way as to berais-
UnderstOod by half the House? :The person who
first received that salary was the MarquessCont-
wallis ; but as the statement NS'as made, this
could not appear any more than the cause•of the
increase. He had Made some. observations on
other parts of the Board, as to-salaries and emo-
luments, but he 'would ask him if he questioned
the fact, that the' emolurnents and salaries of se-
veral Offieers of the Board had been lowered—
(I do, from Mr. Hume) F.—He would tell him
then that his own emoluments had been reduced
from 1,8001. to eleven hundred pounds a year.e—
An Hon. Vrieed near him had suffered a reduc-
tion of 2001. per annum, and there were several-
other reductions which he enumerated ; but no
correction of the mistakes of the Hon. Member:
could correct his-disposition to mis-staterrient.—
(A -laugh.) Thcre was one of those mis-state-
orients in the newspapers, where it was said that
he (Mr. NV.) denied 'that the Storekeeper Of
'Dover'had a salary of 500/. a:year. He never.
denied it. He stated that the Clerk of. the Ord.:
nance bad not-retired, but never denied the salary:
of 5001. a. year. The mis-statement had appeared:
in The Times. This arose from the incorrect-
ness of the ,Hononrable
,Gentleman himself.
-lie alleged that a Storekeeper who had not
1001. ,a year, had been allowed to retire upon the
enormous salary of 5001.-L-(11 ear, hear !)—lle met
the Hen. Mernber soon after that statement
appeared, and'said to him, that there was a mis-•
take in a newspaper respecting what he stated,
amid added, " you have nothing to do with it,
for it is false ;" but be was Much surprised when
-the 'Hon. Gentleman .answered, " I am sorry for.
it, for I wrote it myself."—(Much laughter.)
Ile (Mr. W.) now requested, if the Editor or
Writer of The Times was in the Gallery, that he
wOhld do him instice—(Corderl)--efor he could
not expect it from the Honourable Member hirn.;.
self. The fact was, that he denied the retire-
Meet altogether, but the Report in the tstimatei
shewed that the retiring salary from the' 5001. Was
brii 330/. Ile' then proceeded, to observe upon,
the statements respecting the Assistant-Clerks :n
the Office of Pall-mall and the Tower, and'said,
that 'they weredimittishing, and Were to be in time
entirely reduced. fle denied that the public money
was in any instance -sacrificed to purposes of pa-.
tronage and corruption. The diminution' Which.
had already taken Place underthe Duke of Wel-
lington, amounted to between thirteen and four-
teen thousand pounds ; all, however, had not yet,
been done, which might and would be done ; but:
the fact was, that nothing of that-corrupt influence

1 alluded to as being exerted With respect to the
appointm.ait to situations in Queenhorough, had
any existencz,.. Ow the routrary, when the phut
I became vacant, the first question which the Duke'
asked, was, eoull the place be dispensed. with ?
and the consequence was, that whatever 'place
could be. dipens,A with, was abolished. ;He
could mentioa the Adjutancy and .General-
ship. of Gibraltar, for which many .-military
characters of eminence bad • made. application,
and yet it had been abolished. He :then
observe:( -upon the gratuities on which . the
Honourable Gentleman had dwelt s 6 much, and
said, that they were- chiefly compensations for
length of service; for • instance, the salary of rat
storekeeper, which was originally 3001. was
raised, for thirty. years T,ervice, to 5001. He then.

explained what CV'ciS stated respecting the secretary,
which he denied to be a private secretary of the
Master-General, but a public secretary, ,WhO- had
as confidential and responsible an office. as that
of one- of the Under Secretaries of State.---Ele

also observed, that although the Hon. Member
had asserted that 271,0001. was consumed in re-
pairs, that actually only 80,0001. of that sum was
expended on the works. A word or two with re -
spect to the gratuities alluded to by the Han.
Member. The Eng,riueer Officers had no barracks,
no mess, no travelling expellees, beyond a certain.
number of miles pet day, no allowance' of coals or
candles, and therefore the gratuities alluded to
were nothing more than a compensation for those

prhations. He could assure the Hon. Member
that he was quite ready to produce any accounts
which might be cafled for, no matter how-minuteor detailed they might be. He (Mr. Ward) was

as anxious as any man could be to Place the Ord-
nance Accounts under:the guardianship of Par-

'lament, and he pledged himself that the faget
expence should be annually brought before' the

House. The Honourable 111emb.2r had fount
fault with the Military Academy, and with giving-
Comthissions to the Cadets before the whole" of
the half-pay list were 'employed. lie could not
understand the force of that objection, unless
the Honourable Member meant to say that :no
Cadets should receive Commissions. A regula—
tion had been made for filling' up all thx! higher
Commissions from the half.pay list, while tho
lower Commissions were given to Cadeti4; and
this regulation, he would venture to say, had
given general satisfaction to all parties:--(Hear,
hear D—With respect to the Professor'S. salary,
he had only to observe, that it would be .laid
before the -House, if called for ; but he did not,
in bringing up the Estimates, conceive it neces •

nary to _enter so minutely into detail. The lion.
Member (Mr. Ward) proceeded to 'account for
the expense of the 'Ordnance Establishment in
by stating, that in that Establishment
were included three, different Departments,
whereas, at Sheerness, &c.,. similar. Departments
were charged separately. It had been erge.d,
that many persons ernplOyed at Sheerness,- and
.occupying houses belonging to Government,
sided principally at. Queenborough ;—this was
certainly true, but not to the extent stated' by the.
Hon.-Member (Mr. Hume). It should, however,
be recollected, that a great navaL operation
was now going, on at 'Sheerness,- iu conse-
quence- of which much of the ordinary business
was suspended. Under these .eircutustances, it
was not considered Wrong to.allow the persons
now idle, but who would be shortly again. called

into operation, to reside with their families at
Queetiboromth, instead of ob!iging them to re-
main. in the house furnished to them .by Govern-
ment. The next charge made by the Hon. Mem-
ber was with rinpect to St. John's Wood. It

-Was true that considerable expence was iricurre'd
by keeping a brigade of artillery at that esta-
blishment. That building had been hired- by
Government on a long lease, at a period when it
Could: not have been known how long the war
would last. They were now, however,_ anxious
to get rid of the expence with which they had
been Saddled,and would willingly let that build-
ing to the Hon. Member (Mr. Huine) at a very
cheap rate indeed—if lie would-be so goodas to
take it otf their hands.—(A-laugh.)—The Hon.
Member (Mr. Ward) next
our
to the state-
ments' made relative to our expen.ces at Ceylon
and. Trincomalee, and; contended that these
expenses were absolutely necessary in order to
secure the necessary supplies. for our- shippin.:;-.
He denied and challenged the Honourable Mez:!.
ber-to.shew-any.initanee of a clerk in the (ir;_c
name Department having, after a service'of four
years, :retired upon his full salary. There • was
one other point ()Nile Hon„ Member's speech to
which he wished to allude. He .(Mr. •Hume)
said, that there was an expense of 6001. incurred
-for .what-was called taking -or' hamiiig stores.—
Phis, however, was stated in the. Honobrable
Member's usual manner, that was to say,' incon-
sistently with the fact.—(Hear!)—He repeated
that 'the lion. Member was. grossly incorrect
in making such a statement. - The Net' was, that
<when a
,storekeeper was changed, he gave in
an account -of the stores which had been under

his charge, which account was checked by that
of a person employed to inspect the stores.- This
could not be done by- the person so changed, and
therefore it was deemed most expedient to send a
person from London for the purpose.--(Hear,
hear !)--.llost the'llonourable Member could call
this.giving a man 500 i. forsellingolck stores, he
was at -a loss to conceive., as 'in fact Che'staten)ent•
was totally without foundation.—(Hear., 'hear !).
lie 'Protested against the whale of :the Ron.
Member's statement, and he. Would leave .4 fo
any fair and unprejudiced tuan.on, the.otliar
of the Ilouse, to state Whether he r. Ward) had
been fairly treated in being thus broUgl4,lo.4t:gue
,upon the Estimates of severalyears wlthout.anydo..
cuMents,,or any preparation whatevt.T.---;(ljear!)...
It was true that he had consented to the. notice of

. . .
the rnotion, but he had beennnfairly ;treated by
being thus trepanned into su'ell a discussion with-
out' preparation.—(hear o—Before he"sit down,
he 'wished to rnalte one other obsertatiob. If

to Honourable Member Itished to draw a 'coin-

- -
parison between the' Orddanee Estimates of the
present year and thOse of 179-3, he should have
gone about it in a'different why. He 'should have
taken it into his Consideration that the -orisces of
things had doubled ; that the numberof t+le artil-
lery hatrbeett doulikd,—that the pay of the trieic:-