The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

take the trouble to examine the minutes of the .reports on New
South Wales of that period, they would find abundant evi-
dence of the results of the change of policy referred to by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The Noble Lord, the Member
for Sunderland, had once referred with considerable force to a
speech of Sir George Gipps, who was considered, by a majority
of the Committee, a person whose opinion on this subject might
be desirable. He was applied to by Capt. Fitzroy, and he
( Mr. Hope) would read the evidence of Sir George
Gipps. ( The Hon. Gentleman then read the extract.) It
was stated that this (the sovereignty) was one of the causes
that would unite the natives against the Government. It was
certain that it now created great discontent, and if they adopted
a different line of policy—a policy inconsistent with that pre-
viously pursued—it would only bring ruin upon their interests
in that country.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that as he had had some share in
drawing up the report of the Committee on this subject, he
should wish, and he trusted to be pardoned if he addressed a
few words to the House. It seemed to him, that when they
considered, the mode in which that unfortunate country was
connected with this, a mode of connexion equally injurious to
New Zealand and to Great Britain, the evils which oppressed
it would be found to have had their origin in the conduct pur-
sued by the Government in all time to that • country. When
Captain Cooke was sent out to make discoveries, he took
possession of this island in the name and on the part of Great
Britain. He was an authorised person; because it might be
laid down as an important doctrine, that no one, except a per-
son specially instructed by Great Britain, could usurp such a
right in the name of that country. He thought it necessary
to put this on the broad principle before proceeding with his
case. Well, Captain Cooke went and discovered New Zea-
land, and Great Britain then acquired what might be termed
an imperfect right, which, however, by subsequent acts might
have been perfected. Afterwards they lost possession of it, be-
cause no one, retaining authority from this country, was left in
the island. It was true that certain runaways from New South
Wales went and resided there from time to time. It
was true that mariners called there, who attended the whale
fisheries, and certain missionaries went there for the purpose of
labouring in the vineyard, and there they also fixed their tem-
porary residence. None of these acquired a foot of ground, and
New Zealand still remained unpossessed. And why ? Because
the right of Great Britain to the country had not been per-
fected. But Great Britain, not only not contented with this
virtual cession of the island, publicly declared it to be without
her territories. Thus it was clear that if any foreign nation
had stepped in, as they had not perfected their right of dis-
covery, Great Britain would have been obliged to succumb,
because she had made no declaration of her right. But she might
say " we have recognised them as the independent people of an
independent country, and we shall see that their rights are not
invaded." They were acknowledged by Great Britain, and
now he came to the New Zealand Company's connexion with
the country, and before he had done, he thought he would put
the case in such a position that the Hon. Gentleman would be
puzzled to answer. The New Zealand Company said "We
went out to a country which you have acknowledged to be an
independent and sovereign one, and we bought land of the
sovereigns of that country, paying a fair price for it, and; there-
fore, we consider we have a perfect title to the land, but when
you come afterwards and take possession of it, you say you
have had possession of the country, but we say we think this our
private property, bought according to the very forms on which
you place so much weight—those forms which Lord Stanley so
often refers to. We bought the land and we paid for it, and
you have no right to look into the contract. We claim the
land and deny your right to publish any proclamation that can
be regarded over Europe as challenging our right to our pur-
chases
in a free country." He should like to see the question
brought into a court of law—say the Queen's Bench,
and its decision upon it.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But what did Great Britain do under the government of the
Noble Lord the Member for London ? What were the next
stages in this fat ce ? and a curious farce it was. The Govern-
ment enlarged the commission of the Captain-General of New
South Wales. They declared that his jurisdiction should ex-
tend to all territories in New Zealand, and then they further
granted a commission to Captain Hobson to go out as a sort of
deputy-captain-general. They gave him consular power, and
not only that, but they furnished him with ambassadorial
powers to treat with the native chiefs for their submission to
the power of Great Britain. But the farce went on. Cap-
tain Hobson went out, and then began ti,at other extraordi-
nary two act farce commencing with the treaty of Waitangi.
After this. they had Captain Hobson employing his various
arts to induce the chiefs to cede the sovereignty of the country.
Let them but think of the document obtained by Captain
Wakefield from the chiefs around Wellington, and to
urge with a grave and serious aspect such an instrument as
ceding the sovereignty of a country. They (the Government)
:aid the purchase of the land was a fraud and they would have
nothing to do with it. but he maintained that the selling of the
:and was a fraud.—( Hear.) It was a fraud on the civilized
werhl.—( Cheers ) They said that the purchase was dis-
honourable, but where was the sense of honour in their Iran-
sections with the New Zealand Company? But now he
would remark upon the part taken by the missionaries apart pe-
enliarly marked, as they had used every me Ins, by hands and
wit, to get these verb documents signed. He repeated that
their conduct was peculiarly marked in their inteicoune with
;be aborigines. Bat how did they get there ? Why in this
tray. There was at the time a great organ zetion abread for
emancipating the negroes, and there was a mass of
organization and other sentimental bubbles afloat,
ind so the missionaries got to New Zealand.
ire should be shut up to the -end of the session in Committee,
and that would he the end of it. [ls had had sufficient ex-
erience of this. In the Aborigines Committee, what oc-
cerred? When the report was made, Lord Normanby said,
we cannot stand against this. In the result, General Hobson
wat sent out. To obviate the claims of France our prior
claims to discovery was set up. This was the origin of the
New Zealand Hobby— ( Hear, hear)—from which no one had
gained but the missionaries.—( Hear, and a laugh.) They had
written an account of the Christian doctrine, and had translated
it into the New Zealand language ; which, however did not
contain a sufficient number of wards to express the ideas, and
these were written in a jargon which the New Zealanders could
not nederstand, but he could because he knew English.—
( Hear, and laughter.) But simple as the missionaries were,
they took care of themselves.—( Hear, and laughter.) One
_entleman of this bedy acknowledged that he had obtained
a bit of land—which turned out to he 90,000 acres, Another
had 100,000 acres.—t, Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The
mi+sionaries were the real cause of all the misgovernment.
'the great evil at the root of all colonial government was, that
when a Ministry came into power, they said, we must have a
Colonial Secretary, and they immediately placed in office some
man of Parliamentary influence, with est regard to his know-
le ige or capacity. But there was a power behind, and, in this
case, the missionaries were that power.—( Hear, hear.) Such
influence was sometimes overcome by a man of great strength
of mind, great sagacity, great patience. But Lord Stanley was
not such a person.—( Hear, hear.) The missionaries had been
the cause of the differences between this country and France in
Otaheite.—( Hear, hear.) They went abroad under the pretence
of spreading the religion of peace, and they spread only war and
dissen.ion. He did not blame this Government for all that had
occurred. Preceding Governments, from the 52d of Geo. 111.
down to Lord Normanby were equally to blame.—(llear,
hear.) He thought that the Government should take
the territory into their own hands, and give the colonists
a charter for self-government. such as was possessed
by the colonists of Rhode Island. When the first
settlers of the New Zealand Company were about to leave the
Thames, they had agreed upon a form of Government amongst
themselves which they undertook to obey. In this they
followed the example of those pilgrim settlers who adopted a
form of government which was now reverenced throughout
America as much as Magna Charta was in England. He said thus
much in justice to the New Zealand Company, although he did
not approve of all their proceedings, and especially of their
taking out emigrants without providing for their settlement—
( Hear, hear.) A land tax had been spoken of. But upon
whom was the tax to be levied? Who owned the land ?
( Hear, hear.) It could not be alleged that individuals amongst
the tribes owned it, nor that the tribes themselves were the
owners. Each tribe occupied, from time to time, certain
spots, which they cultivated as long as they would bear culti-
vation, when they moved off to another spot more fertile. But
they did not possess the land as the savages of
North America formerly possessed theirs ; for the latter
used the land as hunting grounds, and lived upon it.
But it was absurd to say that the New Zealanders possessed
the land from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain, as the
people ofthis island possessed Britain, or the Hon. Gentleman
opposite possessed his paternal estates. He thought the course
which the Government ought to pursue was to take the land
on the part of the Crown—to give to the natives a liberal pro-
tection, and such reserves of land as would be amply adequate
to their comfortable subsistence amonst the civilized settlers.
This was the only thing which could be done to soften that
fate, to which the New Zealanders, like all savage races coming
in contact with civilised men were approaching, that of certain
extinction. But if the proposed land tax were imposed
the result would be. that the land would become that of the
Crown by forfeiture within twelve months.—( Hear.) That
was a fiction which he would not say was undignified—the
term was insufficient to express its character. It was rather
worthy of that term to which the Noble Lord himself ( Lord
Stanley) had given authority—that of "thimble rig."—(hear
and laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who was
very imperfectly heard throughout, concluded by entreating the
Government to adopt the policy he had recommended.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it was not his
intention to enter now into a lengthened discussion of this ques.
tion, which had been already, in the course of this session, suffi.
ciently considered by the House. Now he was quite prepared
to admit with the Member for Liskeard, that there were many
of the persons who undertook the scheme with the most disin-
terested motives, and yet it appeared from the book on the
table, that there were persons who realised 6 per cent.
on their outlay. He mentioned this because there was
a great deal in the conduct of the Company which was deemed
culpable by the Government. In 1839, when under the conduct
of Captain Wakefield, the New Zealand Company had
made purchases unwise in their character of the natives. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had distinctly chal-
lenged him, on the ground that the New Zealand Company had
not been guaranteed by the Government. In 1839 the New
Zealand Company had applied to the Government for a recog-
nition of their authority. On this application the Government
had expressly stated that they would not rec"gnise their pro-
ceedings, yet in spite of these proceedings the New Zealand
Company had made purchases of the natives of lands to
stating
which they were alone entitled, and on the 2d
ewthatZetahl
eayndwerCeomipnanpyosshesasdien isosfuedeera.
prospectusofAlaythe N
fain lands, to which they had not the slightest
title. They had applied to the Government for a
recognition of this title, but Lord Normanby,
under the ad-
vice of Capt. Hobson, had replied, that the Government could
not do otherwise than acknowledge that the treaty of Waitn g r
was a valid treaty. Yet in spite of all this the New Zealand
a
Company had instructed their agent, Capt. Wakefield, to make
purchases of lands of the natives, who were perfectly entitled to
the sovereignty of their own estates. They had made these
purchases at a time when the sovereignty of there lands was
fully recognised by the government of this Company. Lord
Normanby had expressly recognised the sovereignty over the
wastes of New Zealand, end it was quite incompetent for the
agents of the New Zealand Company to enter into any arrange-
ments which disregarded the rights of the natives. This treaty
was made in 1810, with the full cognizance of the New Zealand

s f
Me
-
Company, and housed the expression advisedly ; he yet asserted
that the 'country wally bound to observe the terms of that
yfau agreed,
stated that this treaty was one
treaty.i,e rofr Lolnridn re
theo etnetrimsluof thraetedt:eaart,yd thehad theNexopbeesLieodrdhis
lm
approval
I
of the treaty, and had
pb er
or st
eoeft
it
ohne
common community who were s_oand.
Their rights had been
recognised by the Government.
which ought to be observed,
as the inhabitants of New Zeal
On the 19th November the
that
tmheurcehweernetintloedmetmo
New Zealand Company's agent had entered into an arrange-
meat with the natives, in the ful knowledge of the terms of
the treaty of W is expressly stipu-
lated
aitangai. In that treaty
entitled to any lands
when it :
that the Company should not he
which were not granted by the Crown. Yet, any dis-
pute arose, they endeavoured to establish it as a sort of condi-
tion, that the lands they sought to obtain were to be allowed by
the express c0:18,4A ~f the natives. That this was the case was i
expressly apparent from the con,ent et the Noble Lord himself, i
' and a letter of Air. Vernon Smith, vihich expressly stated the
terms of the agreement to the Company. To this the chairman
of the New Zealand Company replied, fully stating that the
Company took the land under the supposition that the Crown
had to give its app,obation to the purchase. The Commissioner
of Land Claims had to ascertain on what grounds the Company
had to make their claims to the lands entered upon by the ar-
rangement of Col. Wakefield. By an in•p tttion of the agree-
ment with the natives it was evident that no agreement had
been entered into by the Company. But a Commission on the

part of the Crown lands had authorised such steps to be taken
as would validate the purchase of the lands. He would not
fatigue the House by reading letters which showed that the
New Zealand Company had agreed to make their purchases of
lands for a considerable sum—not 5001.—but for a considerable
sum ; and if this deposit was to be made, how was this claim to
be satisfied? and he thought that it was quite contrary to the
principle of this agreement that the New Zealand Com-
pany should take this land first under their original
right, and secondly on the principle of national law.
Now, what did the Noble Lord the Member for London say to
this subject ? Why, he said that he would guarantee any grant
to which a superior title was not shown. It was, therefore,
rather too much to say that the New Zealand Company's views
had not been carried out to the extent which they themselves
had laid down. It had been suggested that the Noble Lord had
not kept faith with the Company, because he had not fulfilled
good faith in the award of the 18th May. Now, what was the
fact ? The Noble Lord had determined that the title to these
lands should be shown by the possession of the natives. A
Commissioner had accordingly been appointed to investigate
the titles of the natives to the several districts, for which he
was responsible. When, therefore, the Commissioner had in-
vestigated this award, there was to be a subsequent agreement,
on which the title of the New Zealand Company was to be
based. He would venture on no further explanation, because
he thought that it was unnecessary. He had shown the nature
of the treaty of Waitangai, he had shown the nature of the de-
gree of civilisation to which the natives had advanced, and he
had shown that it was a treaty into which the agent of the New
Zealand Company had solemnly entered, which had been gua-
ranteed by the Government, and for which the previous Go-
vernment was responsible.
Mr. LABOUCHERE denied that this was a question be-
tween the Government and the New Zealand Company. It
was the duty of this House to inquire what was the policy of the
Government with which, as Secretary of the colonies, he was
connected. He did remember the anxious desire of Lord Nor-
manby—an anxiety in which he had most deeply participated—
that the inferior race should not be crushed by the superior
race, and he was prepared to say that nothing had been more
opposed to the policy of the Government of wich Lord Nor-
manby was a meraber, than to violate the terms of the treaty
of Waitangai. He would contend that it was owing to the
documents which the Government had put upon the table that
had caused all the confusion and misfortunes of New Zealand.
He found by the dispatches of Lord Stanley that the instructions
of Lord Stanley were contrary to the instructions of that
House. If it was the wish of the House to conciliate in that
country they would have adopted a very different course of
policy. He did think the same course of justice and fairness
should be adopted towards the people of New Zealand as had
been existing between this country and France, or in America.
He did not mean that nice points upon any sub-
ject should be allowed to form diffieultiev in
the way of le2,islating for a half savage people.
(Hear, hear.) But he did think that substantial justice should
be done as between the natives and the settlers, and this could
be very easily done without injury to the prosperity of this coun-
try, or without the necessity of sending out a larger body of
armed men. He did think it would be absurd to regard the
aborigines of New Zealand as if they were the inha-
bitants of a state as civilized as that of England; but the
mode by which the Government proposed to fine those
people was an absurd mistake. ( Hear, hear, and cheers. )
The levy of a tax was proposed, but the absurdity of such a
measure must be apparent to any person who considered the
present state of the aborigines of that country.—( Hear, hear.)
He would not detain the House further on the present occa-
sion. He would give his vote in favour of his Hon. Friend
near him, for he did think, that if the House was so taken up
by party conflicts, he feared it would go far to shake the confi-
dence of the public in that House.
Sir R. INGLIS contended that the labour of the missionaries
in New Zealand had produced great results, and he was sorry to
hear the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard permit him-
self to speak slightingly of those missionaries. Believing that
the question raised by the New Zealand Company was raised
to support the interest of the Company as such, and for no
other object, he should give his support to her Majesty's
Government.
Mr. AGLIONBY regretted being obliged to obtrude him-
self upon the House upon this subject, because his feelings were
very strong upon the matter. Ile thought that a Committee
would he a much better tribunal for the investigation
of the subjects which had been brought under the considera-
tion of the House by the Attorney-General, than that House
was. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman had dealt in gross
exaggeration. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said,
that the purchases of fund by the New Zealand Company had
been unfairly made. This was entirely without proof. The
Company had paid every farthing which had been awarded by the
Commis-ionee of claims. In one case, after the title to the
land had been conveyed, the Cempany paid 7,9001. for what was
called good-wild. The Company had desired peace, and had
made every conces4ion to the Government short of a concession
of their honour. They had never concealed anything from the
Government. He believed that no one would dare to say in
the presence of the Noble Lord the Member for London, that
the New Zealand Company had misled him. They had done no
such thing. Everything was open to him, and the Noble Lord
knew this. The Noble Lord, when he was in office, might
have had every document connected with the Company merely
for the asking for them. The safety of the colony had been
and should be the first object of the Company. They coupled
the condition with the monopoly. If the House wished for in-
formation nothing would be refused. With regard to the Hon.
Member fir Oxford, I.e would assert that no aggravation
was conceded. But until he had evidence to the contrary he
should believe that the motives and actions to carry on
their designs were rendered abortive by the proceedings of the
Church Missionary Society ; and Ile opposition of that Gen-
tleman had been a prevailing opposition. The Hon. Gentle-
man then read a memorial from that society.
Sir R. INGLIS asked whether this was according to the
custom of the Church Missionary Society. This remark would
justify any imputation on their character?
Mr. A GLION BY would say that in the absence of the reli-
gious inducements of the popular safety there was something
to consider beside the religious prejudices of the people. By
the decision of the Government they had settled 200,000 acres
of land on these persons, and between the several parties it had
come to this whether they would or could not colonize New
Zealand. But he was obliged to yield in order to rebut the
feelings of those whose judgment he very highly respected.
He had listened to the observations of the lion. and Learned
Member of the Board of Trade, and was quite conscious that the
adhesion of the India Company would be quite sufficient, but
in the event of aggression should be granted. On the 21st
December last it was agreed that the advantages should be
divided; and assured to those who felt a very conscious sup-
position that a division would settle the question.
Mr. HOPE said that he had supplied a full report of the
proceedings of the Government, and he thought that when he
had supplied the whole document, extracts se ere unnecessary.
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was then put
and agreed to.
FEES (CRIMINAL COURTS) BILL.
Mr. B. ESCOTT moved the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. CRIPPS seconded the motion.
The ATTORNEY-GENRAL opposed it.
Mr. HUME supported it.
Mr. B:ESCOTT explained, and
Sir J. GRAHAM expostulated.
Mr. DARBY remonstrated with the promoters of tote Bill,
which was eventually postponed.
TURNPIKES ROAD (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. PRIN GLE wished to reserve the second reading, as a
great number of Scottish Members were out of town.
Mr. P. M. STEWART trusted that the Hon. Meniber, as
he did not object to the Bill, would allow it to be read a second
time, and take the discussion in Committee.
The Unions (Ireland) Bill was read a second time.
The Jurors' Book (Ireland) Bill was read a third time .
The report on the Va'uation (Ire and) Bill was brought up,
and ordered to be committed.
The report of the Committee of Supply was received.
SLAVE TRADE (BRAZIL) BILL.
On the order of the day for going into Committee on
this Bill,
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said that as this was a very im-
portant measure, he trusted before the House would pi •uceed
further in it, that any correspondence yet unproduced woi tld be
laid before the House, and he should therefore move the t the
House do not resolve itself into Committee on the BILL this
day, in order to give Government an opportunity of laying any
other correspondence relative to the question before the EL ,use.
Sir R. PEEL hoped that the Hon. Member would allow
the Bill to go into Committee, and if any papers corm ected
with the slave trade, not already laid on the table, con* Id be
found, they would be produced before the third reading-
Mr. HAWES hoped that if any other correspondent e ex-
isted, it would be laid on the table, and he thought those Hon.
Members belonging to the mercantile community ought to en-
tertain similar views.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had stated he would be' ready
to acquiesce in the postponement of the third reading o f the
hßailtlwieneonrdtehretoGporvoderunce
zeannty coofriretshpeonßdreanacia and her elthathadtake Majesty'splaee
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Government.
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the House, as it was really a matter of moment t! I' at the
House should
oeebetEiirteLowr
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ting down the slave trade.
Mr. HUME objected to the matter going further v, ti thout
additional information being furnished.
Sir R. PEEL said the Government could not bring foi rward
the Bill at an earlier period of the session, from the press of. ether
business.
Colonel SIBTHORP had been eighteen years in the 1i ouse,
and never saw the Hon. Member for Salford asleep at 'hi 3 post
before. They were now called upon, at half-past one, t $ force
measures 'of the greatest importance through a thinly at, tt mded
House. Why did not the Hen. Member move the a. ij °ern-
ment ?
Mr. MILNER GIBSON thought he should not be di, is tharg-
ing his duty if he allowed the Bill to proceed without tb, e pro-
duction of the correspondence he had called for. He • would
therefore move the appointment of the Committee on Ti au trsday
next.

The motion having been seconded,
Sir R. PEEL expressed his willingness to postpone • going
into Committee on the Bill till T hursday next.
Mr. M. GIBSON called for the production of Mr. 3i !lice's
correspondence relative to the right of search.
Sir R. PEEL said, as these negotiations had been tunsuc•
cessful, he thought it would be inconsistent in him t o pro-
duce it.
Mr. HUME said the country was anxious to know' upon
what grounds the trade between Brazil and this count r y had
been suspended, and he therefore hoped the correspm a fence
would be laid on the table of the House.
Sir R. PEEL said he had no objection to the producti mof
all papers which would not be injurious to the public writ :e.
The Stamp Duties Bill then passed through Committee , and
the report was brought up.
JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.
On the reading of the order of the day for the third re a 'ling
of this Bill.

Sir R. INGLIS objected to the passing of the Bill at this
late hour, being now two o'clock, and he would divi slt i the
House.—( Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP had for many years looked up o a the
Gentleman at the head of her MajeAv s Government ar t &sin-
cere Christian and Protestant. But he had been compe aed not
to regard him any longer in that light—( A laugh)— and he
should never again be surprised at any Bill which that : Right
Hon. Gentleman might bring in, if it were even to di !stray
the Protestant Church, and to bring in infidelity in its - place.
—(Laughter,) He would support his Hon. Friend th, s : Mem-
ber for Oxford, who was really a Christian and a Pr at estant
—(Laughter)—in recording his vote against the Bill.. -.‹Hear,
hear, and laughter.)
Tho House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the third reading ... ...... . ... ......... 44
A4ainst it ... ........................ 1
The Bill wi‘alksianerletoYi:ain ......... third ....
......... .......cipa—ss I
(. The Bonded Corn Bill was read a third time and pas' ;ed.
TAXING MASTERS COURT OP CHANG. :FtY
(IRELAND) BILL.
Sir ROBERT FERGUSON hoped that this Bill : would
not be pressed on at this late period of the sessio: a, con-
sidering the magnitude and importance of the measure.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for Ireland hoped th e Hon.
Baronet would not oppose the Bill, as a taxing officer f bJ • that
Court in Ireland was very much wanted.
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said he had to compl a 'n of
the very late period of the session at which this meastrE./ was
introduced.