The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

' private soldier, a pension so-low, that, though it might
relieve the poor4ate,it could not support the man. And
if limited service was introduced, a better pension might
be given 'without increasing the expenditure of. the
country. He (Captain Layard) thanked the House-for
the kind indulgence they had granted him. No party
feeling had, or could actuate him upon such an occasion,
feeling, as he did, what every man in that House, what
every man in the country must feel, an anxious, a sincere
desire, for the comfort, the-happiness, and the well-being
of those who, undismayed by the vicissitudes of climate,
undaunted by the.sword'ef-an enemy, maintained, as they
al ways had done,. the - glory -,aillcUt6lekendence *Ow
country.—(Cheers.) -

Sir 11. iTARDINGE would eilgivolif,ra

he could, to give answers to the several questions Which
the Gallant Officer had.put, and, in many respects, he
entirely concurred with the sentiments of the Gallant
Officer.—(Hear, liear.) The Gaßant Officer was aware
that the system of giving free discharges in 1825
had operated very usefully in reconciling families to
alloW their sons to "join the army. Besides, the effect
had been useful to the public in another • way, for
the savin,g in pensions since 1829 had been equal to
a half million sterling.-(Hear.) With respect to the
bounties, and allowances to the recruits, he could only
answer that they were quite sufficient in cavalry regi-
' ments, and he believed they were not -inadequate in the
infantry. With regard to the absurd notion, which the Gal-
lant Officer had so properly endeavoured to remove, that
-there was an intention on the part of the Government to
make use of regimental savings' banks as a means of ascer-
tainink how far the payment of soldiers would be reduced,
he- could 'assure the House that never was there any
such intention, and the soldiers themselves had given
the most substantial proof that the error was not very
generally received.—(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed
with the Gallant Officer as to the expediency of allowing
coals and candles to married officers in barracks.—
(Hear, hear.) He had been in communication on' the
subject, with some of the most intelligent clerks. And
he was satisfied—(as we understoOd)—that it was ad-
visable to allow the coals and candles under the circum-
stances referred to by the Gallant OffiCer.—(Hear.)
In answer to a question from the Earl of SURREY,
Sir H. HARDINGE said, that although it *as not
in all cases practicable to provide railway. carriages for
the wives and children of married soldiers proceeding
with their regiments by railway, every effort was made
to afford them accommodation.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS must acknowledge that all
the Right Honourable Gentleman had said was very
clear. But yet it did not satisfy him.—(Hear, and
. laugh.) The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had
stated that the circumstances of the country required
an increase of the forces; but he had not
stated what those circumstances were.—(Hear.)
The Gallant OZcer had shown the necessity for
relieving the troops on foreign service. He (Mr. W.)
would do as much as the Gallant Officer to relieve those
troops. But there was another body of persons who also
stood in need of relief—the impoverished people of this
country, who had to pay all the expenses.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer must be aware in
what a state of starvation the people had lately been.
They were not so very badly off now.—(Hear.) But
they might go back to that again; or perhaps something
worse. There were no classes in this Empire, except those
who lived on the taxes, who were in a condition to afford
to the army more accommodation and comfort than they
had received for the last twenty-five years. We were
now in the twenty. eighth year of peace, and, according
to the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the expenditure last year was 53,600,0001. He (Mr.
Williams) said it was mere ; but, according to the state-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that was the
amount. The Right Hon. the Seeretary at War said
that the dead weight had been reduced by the reduc-
tion in the half-pay pensions. Why in the year 1818,
only three years after the war, the half-pay pensions
were 2,600,000/; this year they amounted to 2,200;0001.
He (Mr. Williams) rose for the purpose of proposing a
reduction of 20,000 men from the number proposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had shown that the
number of men proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
adding those forces which were as much a portion of the
military as the Guards, was greater by 59,000 men than
the average of 1822 and 1823; greater by 41,000 than
the average of 1836 and 1837; greater by 33,000 than
the average of the last 24 years.. He therefore moved
that the number of men be reduced this year by 20,000.
Lord HOWICK did not rise with the intention of

supporting the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. He
believed that they were not prepared to make the re-
duction in the military force of the country which the
Hon. Gentleman proposed. But at the same time he
(Lord Howick) could not think the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite (Sir H. Hardinge) could rest his proposi-
tion for maintaining so large a force exclusively upon
the necessity for maintaining relief for our colonial pos-
sessions. He entirely concurred with the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer in saying that the pressure on the British
infantry of the line was greater than it ought to be. He
(Lord Howick) was persuaded that measures ought to be
adoptei for the purpose of rendering relief more fre-
quent. He thought there were several measures that
might be adopted with this view. In the first place, he
retained the opinion which he had long entertained, that
much might be done by diminishing the proportion of
each regiment that was at home. He thought it was un-
fortunate that that description of force which did not
feel the pressure so much were not required to take a
greater share of duty than they did at present, During
the time that he had the honour to fill the office of
Secretary-at-War, when the unfortunate insurrection in
Canada arose, he recommended the Government and
Lord Hill to send over two battalions of Guards to Canada.
That measure was adopted, and those Guards were now
come home, but he had not learned that any portion of
that •force had been sent to any of the other colonies.
Now he was far from saying that the regiments of the
Guards ought to take a share of the colonial service ex-
actly like the regiments of the line. But he did say
that so far as service at short distances, and in healthy
climates was concerned, he thought that they should do
something. He thought that two battalions of guards
should be stationed at Gibraltar, or in the Mediterranean,
as a regular arrangement. The officers and men in the
Guards had very great and remarkable advantages over
the rest , of the army. An officer in the
Guards rose to the rank of a general officer, very much
more rapidly than the officers in other regiments. No
man could look through the army list and not find that
out. He thought, therefore, that it was not too much to
ask'them to take a.portion of the foreign duty. Now if two
battalions were continually abroad, either in the Medi-
terrrnean or in North America, to be relieved every two
years, he thought it would be a very good arrangement,
considering that at present the time of the Guards was
passed. between Windsor and London. He thought, too,
that something more should be done by having a larger
proportion of marines. He thought a battalion of ma-
rines could be employed with great advantage at Gib-
raltar, and would be foundlo be of great service if a
war were to break out, and would also tend to diminish
the amount•of colonial duty imposed on the infantry of
the line. Allusion had been made to the subject of
pensions to•soldiers. It had been said that a soldier re-
turning after a long service, and worn out, had only six-
pence a day pension. Now he could not sit there and
allow that representation to go forth without a word of
Formerly
m measureser Il t
y thew h wasepractice
i .
had very
explanation.• That was not the amount of pension to
which a soldier was ' entitled, who was worn
o
easyta
adopted
patt
ed o
formerly.—(Hear.)
r men:. e r
had nl fault
Hrewith
)t
was,
sen
to retire from the service on a pension, unless he was
unfit for the service. The practice was however altered,
and then the soldier could, retire, after twenty-one years
service, on a pension of one shilling per day. This was
found to lead to great inconvenience. In the first place,
men at the age of. thirty-nine frequently claimed the re-
tiring pension. The full pay was only twopence per day
more than the pension ; and the men would, of course,
rather have one shilling a day and do nothing, than one
shilling and twopence per day for active service. The
Right Hon; and Gallant Officer, 'when serving under the
Duke of Wellington, endeavoured to check this system.
He had endeavoured to prevent men from retiring at
thirty-nine years of age, unless those who were really
unfit for service. It was further ordered, that the cer-
tificate of the regimental surgeon should be no longer
deemed of itself sufficient, as it was well known
that commanding officers desired to have young
active men in the service. The soldier who
applied to be discharged on a pension, had to go to
Chatham and undergo inspection by a surgeon not in
connection with• the regiment. He had likewise to ap-
pear before the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, who
should certify as to his unfitness for military duty before
he received his pension. A great many complaints were
made by those soldiers desirous of obtaining their dis-
charge, of being afflicted with chronic; rheumatism, which
although frivolous and ill-grounded, was often dif-
ficult to be disproved. When they had passed the ma-
gical period of 39, the chronic rheumatism was com-
plained of, and the pension applied for. In this manner
the pension list was every year swelling enormously, and
becoming an insupportable burden to the country.—
(Hear, hear.) Men, after a service of 21 years, might
be receiving a pension for 30 years after their discharge
—a pension, too, almost adequate to the full pay of the
active soldier,—(Hear.) The best. proof that many sol-
diers obtained their discharge on frivolous grounds was
the fact, that numbers of those who had obtained their
discharge years ago were now about to be put upon

litary duty , -
Sir H. HARDINGE—Oh! no; .not military duty.
Lord HOWICK—Duty to a certain extent; but he
did not attribute any blame to the War-office on that
score. It was impossible for that department to check
the evil whilst the inducement to commit it remained so
great. In order to .guard against this abuse it was
necessary that the pension for mere disability should be
decreased, and upon their continuing a few years more
in the service it should be increased. It was deluding the
public to say that men might be discharged from the
army, worn out and shattered, on 6d. a-day, for he
might have a pension of is. a-day if his merits were
equal to it. Another great evil existed under
the former system. A commanding officer might
report that the man applying for the pension
was a _ notorious drunkard, yet if that man had

not fallen under the sentence of a court-
martial, he was entitled to the same pension as the most

deserving soldier. This was represented to the Noble
Lord the Member for the City of London, when Pay-
master of the Forces. By virtue of his office he was
then also chairman of the Board of Commissioners of
Chelsea Hospital, and that Noble Lord had done all in
his power to remedy it. When he (Lord Howick) came
into office he suggested (and his proposition met the
sanction of Lord Hill), that in the event of the good
conduct of the soldier during his service he should re-
ceive the full pay, and should derive the full advantage
of the warrant of his Right Hon. Friend, and of the
good conduct warrant. Thus he would receive, not a
pension of 6d. a day, but of Is., Is. 2d., is. 3d., or some-
times even is. 4d., as the case might be. For his
(Lord Howick's) part, he would much rather increase the
comforts of the soldier in active service, improve his
barracks, and give him a better and more suitable