The Sun.
London, England, 1819-03-20 00:00:00

NOTTINGHAM ELECTION.

Mr. W. WY NN observed that a notice stood
for that night respecting the Minutes of the Se-
lect Committee on the Nottingham Election. As
the Orders of the Day hail the precedence. he
suggested to the Learned Gentleman (Serjeant
Copley), the propriety of postponing, it to the
first open day.
.Serjeant .CorLaY acquiesced, and the notice
vris fixed for Tuesday next.
Mr. PEEL presented a Petition from the pa-

rish of saint George's, Hanover-square, agitiost
the Insolvent Acts.—Ordered to lie on the table,

GAME LAWS.

The Hon. Mr. Ba AND moved the second reading
of the Game Laws Amendment Bill.

A Murytntta, whose name could not he learned,
observed, that the advocates of the present
measure considered it not a Bill fur the Preserva-
tion of Game, but as one calculated to produce a
diminution of crime. His impression was, that
it would be attended with a far different result,
inasmuch as the facility of disposing of their plun-
der would insure to poachers both a certain and
a higher price. He did not panegyrize the (ante
Laws, but he did think that, with all the im-
perfections of that system, the good predo-
minated, The evils, he was confident, the pro-
posed measure would rather aggravate than di-
minish.

Sir JOHN SHELLF,Y renewed his objections to
the Bill. On such a subject the House, he felt,
shGnid legislate practically, and not theoretically.
It was impossible, he thought, to deny that the
offence of poaching would increase with the fa-
cility-of selling game. The Country Gentlemen
would absent themselves from their residences in
the country—every farmer would feel the bad ef-
fects of such a change ; and the exorbitant pres-
sure of the Pours' Rate would then become in-
supportable. He concluded h moving,.as an
Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time
that day six months.
Sir J. STLWART seconded the motion, and con-
demned the p:inciples and the tendency of the

Mr. WILBERFottco observed, that though no
sportsman, he ‘Vkiti as ttuicii al tie as any man in
that 1-louse to the importance of keeping, by every
possible indocement, the Con try Gentlemen re-
sident on-their estates. He felt fully the value
of such a custom, when he reflected on the exer-
cise of those qt4,:iti,r2s which that class, the pride
acid honour t,t the kingdom, were so conspicuous
in caltivating, and to which might mainly be at-
tributed the peculiar character this country bad
acquired. When he felt that result thus strongly,
it could not be supposed that, he would yield sup-
port to any measure which tended to diminish so
laudr.ble an influence. But from the best views
that he was enabled to give the proposed Bill,
combined with the opinions of others, on whose
authority he could rely, he weer persuaded that its
effect would be to increase, not to diminish the
quantity of game ; while, on the other hand, it
would produce tooongst the population a grow-
ing indisposition to commit violations of
the Law. Under the present system, the Game
Laws were considered so opposite to the rights
of nature, that the great body of the peo-
ple were hostile- to them. But this evil as-
sumed a much more serious aspect, when the
subject was considered on the principles of huma-
nity. When they recollected that it was from
poaching offences so many were led into those
criminal habits which ultimately led their victims
to time gallows, exclusive of that number who in
early life were imprisoned for the offence, it
would constitute such a 'mass of criminality as
ought not to be suffered to condone, unless the
House was convinced that no remedy could be
prtivided, In fact there must be great dealinga'in
game—dealings to an astottishin, extent. Per-
sons daily brought sacks to the metropolis.
Let the House consider the amount of vice and
misery that must thereby be created. Let them
consider how many bad friends, bad husbands, bad
servants, bad members of society, bad subjects,
must thereby be made. If they wished to dimi-
nish crimes, they must remedy this great evil. It
was a question of extreme importance. The, pro-
posed alteration was recommended on the strongest
grounds of humanity; and if, in conformity to
prejudice, Parliament allowed the existing evil
to continue, their conduct would be productive of
the most mischievous consequences. -

Lord C.:Live contended that the Bill before the
House would not effect the objects it proposed to
effect. Otherwise so sensible was he of the de-
tects of the Game Laws, that he should be one of
its warmest supporters. In particidar, the Bill
would, in his opinion, not tend to repress poach-
ing. As licenses to sell spirits or tea did not pre-
vent smuggling, so licenses ,to sell game would
tint prevent smuggling. Seeing nothing in the
Bill, to induce him to support it, but a great deal
to, induce him to be hostile to it, he should cer-
tainly vote against the second reading.
Mr. T. L. WELLES.LEY Supported this Bill,
which, with some few, amendments, would be sa-
lutary to the public. The laws, as they now
stood, were disgraceful to our Statute Books.—
What vpu cannot .protect, at least, in this in-
stance, you ought to legalize. He approved of
the prlociple of the Bill, and thought it would
tend w remove many obnoxious Acis.

Mr. Cox?, said, that he recollected, six and
thirty years ago, a motion baying been made on
this subject, at which time three distinguished
Lawyers, Lord Kenyon, Mr. Dunning, and Mr.-
Lee, declared that Game should be private pro-
perty. That he considered to be excellent all,
thority ; an•l in the opinion so expressed, he per-
fectly concurred. Unquestionably- every man
had a right to that which was on his estate. He
(Mr. Coke) was not sent to that House for
amusement or profit. Were he to consult the
latter, he might, perhaps, find it to his advan-
tage, as others did to theirs, to sit on the other
side. But be, and the other Members of -that
House, were sent there to take care of the ante-
rests of -the small proprietors as well as of those
of the large. The. grievances which resulted from
the present system of the Game Laws were into,
lerable. Towards the close of the last sporting
season in the County of Norfolk, a poor woman,
going accidentally into a plantation,was so cruel-
ly shot by a gamekeeper that her life was de-
spaired of. All that the keeper said was, You
have only been wounded ; had you gone further,
you would have been killed." This poor woman
had three children, and the only allowance she
received from the parish
,during her consequent
confinement was a shilling a-week.—Were such
things to be endured ? Conceiving that the Bill
before the House would not only tend to pre-
serve the Game, but that it would have a more
extetisive and beneficial operation, he should give
it his decided support.
A NIBMBER, whose name could not be learned,

' wished that the Bill might be read a second time'
hut thought that some of the clauses did not f.'n
tar enough, and might be advantageously extend'
ed in the Committee.
Mr. Betimes, in reference to the story of the
Game-keeper, and the wounding the poor won"'
in Norfolk, asked what had been discovered incite
present Bill which would prevent similar tleeii
dents ? His Hon. Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) halt
not, he believed, read the Bill, otherwise he wo"1"
have observed many incongruities ie it. Gentiereeu
said, that by the continuance of the present laws'
there ‘voeld be an increased portion of bolo"
tensely. Let them not come
with large words in
their months to frighten men front propriety:":
With ell the pretensions to objects of loensultY ,
which had been recommeeded by this Bill, if `e3,.,5
curious to find, that two of the most rigid acts °"
the statute-book were preserved in it ; indeed be
could not do well without it. Occupaucv was lbe
right to property, and whatever game appeated,""
the land occupied became the property of the I;
. divideal in whose possession the tend S:
was. ”-
ini
Geutlemen comic:felted the law for punishing a
men for killing a hare. This was certaialY_,
trespass on private property, and therefore ;:,
q.eired some penalty.- With all the comtuer''ret
(tons of the present Bill, was a poacher in a bet:l
rt,isiitiflarnett eslrieiegi
himself, by
ibi(vii:ifleaig,Llehi;aroalsdktsetoatpttnfretolt:plielel,:rvnit''voai
iltlitao.
toktl;lntlitrseille reminded
of
Pie` t alt
the birds at once which had aris";nbfyro'fintrilitligs asinfi!f
„ i 11.-
piece of ground, when he killed one bird, a*,,"( ae
e"t,ietrbel sse(i: ai
)reiapl:
do of
pt the new law,
the rest flew away. 'lbis was in some ntiristeet -
I
things were rejected or flew away front rixivedbere
force) had confessed himself no .3
garbled, that all the glic):0,
law. His lion. Friend behind h:m (Mr. '''. he
for the °a" 3 a
was consequently no practical the
ol),as
rations of the Bill. All that bad moved higl teas
the supposed prevention of poachers, a qt 6 0,0
which was thought a nursery for crimes. 1311`00
now had one, you would by the effects
Bill tended to increase poachers ; for wile" ';eof
;I'r.ici)ltitittilasoveon atbe least
destroyedfive. ;Baesni(tileas,gaallngtolife fai:::
bonds, poachers be meant, would be let
on the public, to the annoyance of 100.senderj
every "oder§
proprietor in the kingdom. Out of 522 'fro, gi
by the operations of the Act of last Sesstlcii,t this
were liable to the severest penalties ; sl that this
la er did not defend the general c°"", co stig-
which some Gentlemen had been please" wine-
matise it with. The proposed Bill w 35 in his
ions in its present state, und could 110t':, slat'
opinion, be so amended as to be reurferett P
of the ranie
able. He should therefore oppose it.
Mr. T. L. WELLESLEY explained.
m that the
Colonel Wool) was about to affir— r i by td-
poor woman, whose case had been notice( been
Hon, and humane Member for Norfolk, lie" -0.
judge of
c..
wounded most fixocionsly by*that detestahslecolee
strement called a,spring-gun, when Ile ova
rected by—
Mr. COKE, who said, that it was "not a sprint'
gun." thst
Colonel WOOD proceeded by observing, . t
this Bift would operate as a protection agains.;
spring-guns, the most unwarrantable and f,ere°,,csi°lfil
puoishment that could be inflicted :10'115' -'; (:11,1
feeder. 'But he did not think that killing It b'
or a hare deserved the loss of a limb, tatless lir
loss of life. Let the sale of game be legttriesiii
and you do away at once with all poachers al
roc
spring-gunse It is necessary to supply this g ,
town with game, and you cannot do, it so eft.eer,l, .
ally as by legalizing the sale of first
poacher ever goes out without knowii'dfd riot
the market that he is to supply.'
If bevy sttels
make this previous arrangement, came bowel/ re..
a perishable commodity, he reil;ht as
to Oil
main at home, or tent his attention en( oils
other object of gain. Even were the pr" conti-
to pass, some few poachers might pei:haPas,es by_
nue for a time to commit their treS.Pots steal
stealth, in the same manner as some s''''',llo/), a re"
geese or fowls. The poulterers of i'" la re' ,
spectahle set of men, said the Colonel' "Dula
°I
joice to find 'that you had legalized lb. r Of
game. Where are the supplies !deco fr
pror _ , Food
which serve to gratify town -eusntrevfestreyret:sa.e;
your preserves ; for notwithsC:indi
tion, this kind of property cannot be prot
the sill,
One argument had been started agatinse.,,ntleto°
that ie would remove a number or "-I.6etiiits
from. their residences, because,
of the Game, there pouf(' be no attractioio
004
there were other sports more congenial tv, oeif
Gentlemen than killing Game; Consequentnlpeed.
residences in the country would not be ablOcii ‘V39
The Colonel particularised fox buntiog, wietoeu
is
in every respect more congenial to Gent' sous
entlY k
general. Keepers of preserves frequ soes' a
beyond their commission, by poisoniteg '
rizei 14
though they were a specieseof gamed Pineo:cle;
by the des-i. 00
many of their masters. Formerly 041;3-eir gag-%
lighted in going out to the field urittrtto eolleet.tt,
kill game,ltt".•now the custom l'va6 e, ereservet
many pheasants as possible toge
like so. many barn-door fowls. Ile ilevellia. cool
tber..lort-bo be
in France ; but he was told.thatio t. trseli ail
the practice• was to surround a "
reFffs,lntheo Ot!
woodland, drive out the animals, ao".. they e.a
takes his shot at him en passant, end thels.o,o PIC' 1
knitting! T
his(node ditfered as Moat lei.-e.,.eil I°
list) hunting, as French Gentlemen liii
;, IP
their manners from English Gentle Tel .
Isadore-mit , e
hoped the proposed law odd pass . , that te
All% FRANK LAND LEWIS was COO Vitleeu .
seo'
Bill proposed would tend to the better pibitive
to tiier:ga,
P"ceert i4s
pro, .
0- f is
tion of game, and the prevention of
Game ought to be considered as good
The sale e
any other produce on an estate. sortie
otherolg 11,
ptioanbe b
be
ad legalized.op te(j a
II(Let"l
thea licence
otlie plan be adopted, and the benefici suire
re)
tifeoeit,i,
would soon be obvious to the mast indiffer
.1 9 Iv
server. Some Gentlemen thought that suct Let
cense would teed to invalidate proPertY". 00(1
them recollect, that horse-dealers arc licensee, He
ayet
provedth e i r license
also,
iniootni.ns'alid Memberake pfireoaPrelr, ittYji
.1.11,r;
Wilberforce) had remarked, that the Bill, '' io,
p I.
t,
~ e
fi i e preventionnt
of
ff
publiccri n l e,
morals. `When
r, e‘avtillyentenadu
ibis
assure
racier and lives for. flame. After I' to
once, granted, people would not risk their '
Act, you ought to confine your severe 14"

tli
kV,

Tit)
jrl,
tai,

I', "
lie
41,

ex(
111,1
hrg

&to
if2t

the
hi,
1118

ki
to
tle

tOl,

inie•
o I,"'
end'

3 the
tiAd
,00ld
laws

1110 0

in-

("I

ig-
3a"
ills
at'

the
the
een
or"

es

ti,",e who Purchase stolen G,,ne, to the
wcti as the
Purchaser : he had no objection to
tl,'tf as
41_1:Ike this part of the law tremendously severe•—
" (bought the present system of qoalifications
e:l:'(fiNclire.n s anti r)
t cpe7r7i'ilte 'amilei license ntsoe forare ltlitoian-.
ification•
'through
M the mediton of sonte clause.
not r. Catres assured the House that he should
claim their attention long.. He was one of
those who were not sorry to see retained those
Provisions which the Honourable Gentleman ",
6"°l, (Mr. 13ankes) had objected to. h"
°eel) stated that the number of criminals under the
nilate 13" were fewer this year than usual ; but
was °wing to the very provisions which had
„L•
• —llected to, There were, however, enact-
-Itliiiiel,n,t,s•a;iiinentlrt.e law as it now iO,I which required
" Every person purchasing, game was
hjeci to a penalty of 51., to be levied on his
rcHis and chattels ; but if no chattels were found,
e`caped without any punishmcnt.—(Quyst
'l"estion,)
Alr
Bitawn replied —He coold not recollect any
144 argonneot ag.4inst the principle of the Bill,
except one argument urged by the Hon. Gentle-
titan tinder. the gallery (Colonel Wood.) His
,-gtrittent was, that stol
41"le en game must supply the
11'41.Itet as long as stolen turnips supply it ; if
,4 n turnips could
,not be driven front the mar-
et,
14'd neither could stolen
by another Hon. Mem game. An argument
ber might he stated in
PePIY to this argument, That Hon. Member had
it'btended that no severity could succeed in pro-
tecting warrens, when all the property in Eng-
la".(lvvas engaged in resisting the law. Na legts-
-I,t've severity could prevent the selling of game !
tieref,„
Iv! el( S the part of wisdom to regulate
ti4at.could not he prevented. He had
a •
founded
f 8 1-1111 for that purpose upon the Resolution of
'antler Parliament, " that girlie belonged to the
nett of the soil." He had stated that the small
proprietors were excluded from their just and na-
lltat t II it Gentleman (Jr.
t, to game,
.1- I) 0
t:hrl eS )
had misunderstood him, as by the law
;,,atnre he had meant the natural, or savagu state
I, 14". His emb.irrasstovot, whenever he vet-
Otte to speak in that house, might make him
(.; " dinicolt to be understood. Rot the Hon.
I,:iisittletttan must have been aware that there still
ed a natural law, as well as conventional and
1,„
vs. Against this natural naturallaw,
tfil Pl
lainipae(' that small proprietors were deprived
IN,ll4;ir right to game. The same Hon. Gont•
:IPn-3180 stated, that he had called the present laws
".
5 Now his very words were, that the pre-
laws were inadeqtrate, and in many cases op-
tle at it SiVe
ty ` and unjust. n A Hon. Member had said,
as no hardship upon men of personal pro-
-111%.1Y,,,1"
'" at they could have no game, for they
boy land ; but buying of land would not
eer .eY must buy manors. Amendments might,
fse,""inlY be required ; the variety of inlet ests i
41c ec`it would require various amendments. His
El°" IVas gained if' the moral feeling of the
ke",t,` were ~,,-,keoetl to the system (if Game
was oppose:l by the concurrent in-
Ti of the lower-orders.
4i '
vid:.(Lillety was then cleared, and the House
r'or the second reading 11(1
-
'or the Amendment B3
111 . Majority for the
actedt n'n'" was then read a seemed time, and or-
beln- committed for Wednesday next.
Tit '4l
-TARTER SESSIONS REVISION BILL.
Itc eite
Ittet. Port on this Bill went through a Com-
e,. - of tt
as ordered to
the whole House, and w
"exL, into further consideration on Friday
The P,RESENTS TO FOREIGN MINISTERS,
1:41i
t4kine Cr of the Day having been read for
ti;4lll.° consideration the Report ol! Civil
l'atitinget'eie3, and the adjourned Resolution for
tetleies-g ,1541. Ss. 9id, for Arrears of Contin-
A. ti natnie,
tka . s
UTCHINS said, he hoped the Right
tßly Gent! u`NI
elnan opposite /I •. A 1 thnoi) had
'
ti
e the
COMe to the opinion that the part of
fits
• .
Lurnouuting to 22,5101. Gs. 7d. intended
(-'-uoxes to Foreign M Touters, was one of
11;:s(ti "extraordinary and extravagant proposals
,om-
1n". 1 vet come before the House of k-
-Itiet 11, at 'tas' the duty of that House to keep a
ig(4l l‘t-atil over the expenditure of the public
4114e' in doing. so- they strengthened the
tit 3 Of M• •d
enabled
ek ft) misters themselves, a" • t
't811%,, tealize their professed ithentions of
Igti•eh h LY. items of
lt"re ket!re my of the ,
;aieh Proposed grant -was composed, to
-/Iptudede, "bjected, besides *hat had been
'n Presents. He thought it wls
1,14,11i5h-htravagant to have spent 3,1951. I 2s. in
:110,1.1-g, not the whole of the Royal Yacht, but
ilets ‘1.1)0111 in it, as would be•seeti 'by the
is:s2l,•'°re the House. He also conceived that
ohir the expellees of the Noble Viscount
'Vellifiebt,lce..(Lard Castlereagh and the Duke
bect,..gt°ll), at Aix-fa,•Chapelle, was more than
vi`ktot -qaty. That expense, he was.convinced,
elsealtributed one iota to the furtherance of
4tQlli•th ti„."l),ject then in. view. He had no doubt
hat: 4N°ble Neroci • • •rl t have remained
, 6 a•ots
vtie,l
,411 have suffered ake business to be
0,04 " by the usual ,Messengers of the State,
tts. Le any detritnent to the public service.—
believed. 'that no point had, been dis-
i°t44 nat Aix-la-Chapelle, and that all had
lablo,,rla.:erleaioi:eif,y),:grtetieetyl upon between. the.
Allied
YTeeted' to 1., I'l%l ?,0091. having
had their meeting. tie
been- spent w en-
ittid_t, • Carand Duke Nicholas, and con-
provision for such Royal Visitors
thogik. not to 'come out of the Public Purse. He
tx_t Ott the chai-,re of 20 0001
01,;:etssi,c,
as " • for law expenses
teet,
of as. that (4'10,3971. for fees, and
tnor'in▪
"%s"eserltion. But when he came
xes, I,e 'um of 22,5101, 6s. 7d. for snuff-
• could not
p„)..an,,_g.nt conceive on what grounds
oi tie
0,0ne7d.. and extraordinary waste of the
tt
woubYluiribi be d.ustified. Ile trusted the
,L oe Satisfied a mere refer-
tite. - a nishvd
..ated ostorn. Lle bad heard of an
tll‘i»g• SO fur
att:ail the Grand Duke Nicholas,
),n..nlPle of the to custom and followed the
the couch,. "le Lord, as to bestow a snuff-
-1,01,11;g
01:at) who had bad the honour of
Nohle
us c""try•—(Laughter.)—lie
tould itll siaeh plce:1(1 would not cloak himself
gritnto Tt'erlt• If no effectual relief
() Lite suffering porjou
of
ka

the people, to show a wish to economize
would tend greatly to tranquillize them.—
After such votes as had lately beets passed—at-
ter refusing to reduce the number of the Lords
of the Admiralty, the House could nor be too strict
in looking closely at the Estimates laid on its ta-
ble. It was but a tcw days since a salary of 5001.
a year, as Royal Equerries, had beets refused to
two Officers most highly distinguished for their
services, whilst such a sum as that wasted in snuff-
boxes wool() probably have been more than suf-
ficient to pay those salaries during; the whole of
their lives, considering the age which they had,
attained. He was convinced that, by watching
attentively over the public expenditure, thousands
might be saved to the Country. lie then moved
the following Resolution :—'' That the sum of
22,5101. 15s. Id., which, in the Papers before the
House, was stated to have been expended its snuff-
boxes, was a roost profuse and improvident ex-
peoditure of the public money."
The SPEAK CIL stated, that as the Resolution be-
fore the House was one 'for 79,1;541., the beat
mode of Amendment would be to propose to de-
duct the 22,5101. out of it.
Mr. HUTCHINSON was understood to say, that
he did not wish to refuse that sure since it had
been expended, but, to express the sense of the
House as to the manner in which the money had
been applied.
The SPEAKER then suggested the propriety of
first agreeing to the sum proposed, and then
bringing forward the Hon. Member's resolution.
Lord CASTLEREAGH then rose and Said, that the
observations of the Hon. Member were rather of a
political than of a financial nature; that the busi-
ness had been done at Aix-h-Chapelle before him-
self and the Noble Duke (Wellington) had arrived
there; and that what was left for them to effect,
might have been intrusted to the King's Messen-
gers. Upon these points the Noble Lord did not
think it necessary for him, at that time, to enter
into any ex plantations, which might involve an
investigation of all the proceedings of the Con-
gress, as stated in the Protocols; but with refer-
ence to the expenditure caused to the country hy
the mission, he should state, that the expellees of
the Noble Duke and of himself did not exceed
4,0001. each. The charge now appearing in the
resolutions out the table, under the head of pre-
sents to Foreign Ministers, was not to be consi-
dered as the expense of one hot of two years,
and comparing it with the expellees for the
seven years preceding 1811, it would be found
not to exceed the usual average. It would ap-
pear from Mr. Pitt's arrangement of the Civil
List, that he estimated the charge of presents
to foreign Ministers at 10,0001. a-year, which
skewed that even at that t hoe this charge was not
considered extravagant or unesoal. He was aware
that any thing in the shape of presents was
open to objections, and that it might be said
they ought not to he given. Ile trusted that
the House would do him the justice to believe that
whatever opinion he might express on this point
he was altogether unitifitsenced by any conside-
rations regarding. himselt.—(Hear I)—Uudoubt-
edly Otis Government should ever practise a se-
vere and rigid economy, but be should ever ob-
ject to abolish this species of expence as injurious
to the public service. Presents to Foreign
Ministers were not so much open as others to
obloquy or jealousy, because they were not
arbitrary in their anfount, nor in their appropria-
tion. The custom of giving and receiving pre-
sents on great diplomatic occasions was as old as
the Monarchy, and was practised by every State
in Europe. The Government of the United
States of America had indeed established a
rule of conduct for themselves, whereby their di-
plomatic agents never gate, nor were permitted to
receive presents. The East India Company had
also established a rule of the same effect, because
the receiving of presents was, in the case of their
officers,liable to very great abuses. This objection,
however, could not be made to the practice among
European nations, where presents, which custom
had in some degree defined, were given, not to
the Secretaries of State; but to the diplomatic
agents who actually concluded the Treaty. With
respect to himself, he stated, that although very
much engaged in diplomatic transactions, he never
received more than five of these customary pre-
sents.—(Hear, hear !)—The value of these pre-
sents, which generally consisted` of a Sovereign's
portrait„ ornamented in such a manner as to ren-
der the gift more worthy of his offering, could
never be computed by the suns of money it might
produce if set up to auction. A value was at-
tachedetce them as memorials of service. greater
than could be derivetlfrom mere money.—( Hear!)
He stated that the diplomatic profession was the
most expensive of any, and that none of the
usual advantages could he taken from those en-
gaged art it without making some compensation
for the loss : he should submit to the House that
the amount now appearing on the table Was not
greater than was usual,. and that it would be very
unwise in Parliament to discountenance a practice
uniforin in Europe, and 'from which this country
could not, consistently with its present relations
with other .States, be singular in departing.—
(Hear, hear !)

Mr. FORBES asked, why Navy Officers on fo-
reign stations, in drawing their pay, should suffer
a loss of 10, 20, 30, nay evil) 40 per cent. while
the Diplomatic Officers of the Crown were usually
compensated for the loss ?

Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that this compen-
sation was granted to Diplomatic Officers in con-
sequence of a particular arrangement, and was
granted by a strict reference to the suitable amount
of their salaries.

Sir M. IV. RIDLEY trusted the practice of gin-
ing presents would be put an end to,. though he
weis willing to do justice to tl4e conduct of the
Noble Lord (Castlereagh)4 who had not done
justice to himself. lie understood that they were
indebted to the Noble Lord for a great diminu-
tion in this'expence ; for when it was proposed,
at a meeting of the Ambassadors, that presents
should be exchanged on the signature of each
Treaty, the Noble Lord had successfully opposed
it ; and it had been determined that only one pre-
sent should be exchanged. He alluded to the
grant for the entertainment of the Archdukes ; if
those visitors were to be provided with the means
of travelling through the country for theif own
amusement, at least those who attended thew

should pay some attention to economy, nor allow
them to be charged,. as in the hotel in &lin-
bnrgh, at the rate of above 1001. a day. The
souls lavished on the yacht seemed entirely use-
less. There was also a sum of 40001. a year for
the Alien Olfice—ao establishment disgraceful
to the Country, and which, in a tew months, he
hoped ‘eonld cease to exist.
Mr. CANNING corrected Sir M. W. Ridley as to
the facts of his statement, which did so much ho-
noor to the Noble Lord. It was at the Congress of
Vienna that the transaction had taken place, the
result of which was, that one present WaS ex-
changed instead of 45.—(Flear !)
'dr. It CLIVE said, that the Alien Office'had
been considerably reduced, much of , the charge
being for pensions.
The resolution was agreed to ; and Mr. Hut-
chinson's tesolotion being put, was negatived.

TRIAL BY BATTLE.
On the bringing op of the Report of the Bill for
abolishing the Trial by Battle, and the Right of
Appeal,
Sir F. BURDETT contended, that 'Dial by Battle
had no more to do with the Right of Appeal, than
with a common indictment. He apprehended that
in common law, Trial by Bartle was obsolete.—
He bad no objection to its being entirely abolished,
but he wished to retain the Right of Appeal. It
was a most important tight to the subject, espe-
daily in cases of murder, because it served as a
bar to the assumed prerogative of the Crown.—
If it were removed it would create not only
inconvenience, but injustice, by exposing per-
sons twice to danger for the saute offence.—
To repeal Trial by Battle, without injuring
the other, nothing more was -required than to
rescind pal t of an Act of Henry Vii. relating to
individuak marefuis acquitte,t, Hod to let the corn
moo law stand, taking away all the statutes which
had been imprinted upon it. Trial by Bat:le was
so little connected with the night of Appeal, that
it never was to be resorted to, save when, from
want of witnesses, or other causes, all other
means had tailed. He then quoted several cases
to establish that position. He felt the highest
respect for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
had brought in the present Bill. None, he thought,
had filled the office of Atforney• General, in itself
an infringement on the Constioition, oith less
ground of disapprobation on the part of the public,
and less exertion of unconstitutional power. It he
(sir F.) "id, that he looked with jealousy to any
thing corning from such a quarter, it must there-
fore be understood of the office, and not of its
holder. But he must contend that such jealousy
could not fail to arise when a measure like the
present was seen to proceed from his Majesty's
Attorney-General, and joined together two ob-
jects which ought to be kept entirely separate.
Lord Holt held that Right of Apneal which it was
now proposed to abolish in such high estrem,
that lie had called it " a (toe' badge of English
liberty," and Mr. Dunning had described it as
" one of the pillars of the Constitution." He
then entered into several cases, end particularly
that of Kennedy, who, thong?) found guilty of
having murdered an old man to) Westmins:er-
bridge, had been pardoned because his sister was
mistress to Lord Saud wich. There was also the
case of a gardener, a few years boa, who had
murdered his master, and yet bad obtained his
pardon for no reason that be could con-
ceive. showed the importance of preserv-
ing a right which must operate as a check
on the assumed prerogative of the Crown to grant
such pardons. He called it assumed, because he
denied its constitotional existence. Besides the
3d of Edward 11. there were statutes upon sta-
tutes, which declared that the King should not
pardon for murder, except when done by misfor- 1
tune or in self-defence ; in other %writs, when it
was manslaughter, and not assassination. It was
still more important to keep this- right, when
the Country assumed a Military Government, and
soldiers were introduced every where. It would
serve as some protection against military execu-
tion. Its repeal could, at least, do no good, and
Wright, certainly, produce much possible evil. In
the case of Thornton and Ashford, lie almost
wished the latter had gone the extreme length of
pushing .the plea as far as it could have been
pushed, that it might be seen if the Judges of
England would have attended in Tothill-fields*
(for as the parties were not Knights they must
have foil& with sand-bags), to see which of
those fellows could bear most beating. Consi-7
doing it a constitutional question of some im-
portance, he intended, at a proper time, to move
that the Bill should be re-committed, in order
that he might have an opportunity of moving.'
those Amendments which he wished to propose.

The Amendments made to the Bill in the Com-
mittee having been. read ; on the motion that they
should be read a second time,
Sir F. BuRDETT moved that the Bill should be
re-committed.

Mr. Serjeant CorLEy would rather the Bill
should be lost;'lllari that it should pass with such
amendments as- the Honourable Baronet seemed
inclined to propose. The Right of Appeal was
that which ought not to continue. He was sur-
prised to hear the Honourable I3aronet say the
law of Trial by Battle was obsolete. That it
was so, hail escaped the Judges eogaged in the
late proceedings in Thornton's case, as well
as all the Counsel er ployed on that occasion.
The only question had been, whether st suffi-
cient plea had been set up to give the Appellee
a claim to Trial by Battle, to which, if his plea
were good,. he was entitled by the law of the
land. If the Court bad been placed in a ridi-
cidOus situation by the recent proceedings, he
would avail bimselt of that tact to contend that on
that account the present Bill ought to pass. The
Hon. Baronet had quoted Lord Holt's words in
favour of the Right of Appeal. In fairness, he
ought also to have quoted the words of Lord
Chief Justice Treby against it, and other autho-
rities equally high might be opposed to that
which the Hon. Baronet quoted. Mr. Fox, on
one occasion, had contended that the Cight of
Appeal ought not to be continued. By the com-
mon law of the land, the Hon.sliaronet appeared
to think the Crown was denied the power of
showing mercy in cases of murder, and that
an appeal deprived the Crown of the right to
pardon. On these points he differed from the
Honourable Baronet. He strongly awned this

right of the Crown to pardon in cases of nn-.
der. If not in the Crown, where should• this
power lie ? In what conntry on the face of
the globe: was it found that such a power to ar-
rest punishment did not exist ? In every com-
munity a power to pardon, in particulat; cases,
must exist somewhere. Suppose, for instance, ,a
person -convicted of murder should afterwards be
proved to be innocent, was it fitting that no
power should exist to prevent the sentrico of
the Court from being carried into execution ?
The right of interfering in such a case must be
lodged somewhere; and if not with the Crown,
where could it be vested' wi!ir safety ? Would he
confide it to a private indiVidual—to the relatives
of the murdered person ? In such a case, the
probability was, that the power would be abused,
for revengeful or for factious purposes. In the
case that had been referred to by the Honour-
able 13aronet, the widow, excited by the popular
feeling, moved for a writ of appeal. A compro-
mise was offered, and Lord Ashburnham, who
was then at the Bar, and- Counsel for the ac-
cased, bad directed them to pay down time mo-
ney tendered, and this being done, the widow
swept the guineas into her lap, and signed the
release of the parties. Was this, he would ask,
a system that merited the eulogium prisied
on it by the Han.. Baronet ? As the lay.noW
stood, if a man had been murdered, his widow
could only appeal ; and if. she (lied, or married
again, no appeal could be made No appeal could
be made where a man was murdered, who had‘no
son. The daughter could nut make an appeal,
as this must be done by time next heir. He net.

tioned these things to show how that
right was which '.!:c Honourable 13aro,:t.t had
thought of so much hnportance. Where a tuna

was charged with an otience in a common
way, the M3gistrates could not claltnit hint
to ptkon but on information received on oath,
When there be could not be put on his trial
unless a 13111 were found' against him by
the Grand Jury. This was a system which he
should have expected a hiend to public liberty
would arprove. lltit what was the course in 'cases
of Appeal ? There the party was committed to
prison on an affidavit, deckling it to be the beliet
(it the deponent that the party accused was gui;;y
of the crime charged against him, and lie was put
on his trial without any bill being found by the
Graol Joy against him. He should not have
expected such a course of proceeding would have
met with the approbation of a liiend to the peo-
ple. By the kw of the hod, it was provided that
Peers should only be tried by Peers. A writ of
Appeal affecting a Peer would deprive him ot the
benefit of that just arrangement which gave him
the protection, of a trial by Lis equals, and sent
him to be tried by a common Jury. These facts
stated, which to him appeared unanswerable ob-
jections to the existing law, he thought it minters-
eessary to say more to show the amendments to
the present Bill which the Hon. Baronet svithed
to Wove ought not to be received.

Sir F. BURDETT at some length explainzd, and
defended bis former statements.

Mr. C. TENNysoN obicord to that clause of
the present 11111 which gave it the effect of an ex
past facto law, and therefore wished the Bill to
be recommitted. .

Thv ATTORNEY•GEZZERAL said, if the case lare!y
before the Judges had gone on so far that they, in
the discharge of their duty, had been
to order a trial ,by batt!c, in his opinion, it would
then have become the duty of Parliament to in•
terfere, and pass an e,pogt facto law in that par.
Ocular ease: It was ►vith that feeling Thar be had
introduced the last clause of the present Bill,
lest some writ of appeal should now be fortlicom.
log, The Crown had the power to pardon mur-
derers. The only Statute that seemed to make
against it was, one passed in the shoe of Ed-
ward 1., b►!t this he shelved did not prevent the
Crown frotri granting pardon in cases of murder.
Sir F. BURDETT said, the Statute he had re-
ferred to %vas the one of the third of Edward IL,
which provided that pardon should be granted in.
cases of homicide only where the King could do
so 9n his oath ; that is where the party convict-
ed had slain a man in self-defence, or through
misfortune.

Mr. Seijeant CopLEY thought, as the power of
granting pardon in eases of murder had been ex-
ercised by the Crown during a period of 300 years,
it was fak to presume that the Statute referred to
had soon been repealed.
The House divided, when tl►e numbers were—.

For the Motion 46
For the Amendment 4 •
Majority against the recommitment —S2
The Report was then agreed to, and the Bill
ordered to he read a third time on Monday.

CONSOLIDATED FUND.
Mr. LUSIIINGTON brought up the Report of the
Consolidated Fund Produce Bill ; several amend-
ments to which were read and agreed to, and the
Bill ordered to be engrossed, and to be read a
third time on Monday.

HUSBANDRY HORSES BILL.
The Husbandry Horses Bill was, with some
ammendments, proposed in the Committee, read 4
third time and passed:

NETHERLANDS SLAVE TRADE.
The, Order of the Day for the third reading of
the Netherlands Slave Bill was then read.

Mr. MARRYAT spoke st. some length respec• ing
the insalubrity of the settlement at Sierre Leone,
and the ditlienities attended upon its being conti-
nued as a place for the Commission mentioned in
the Bill.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the Admiralty,
after a strict investigation, had found that Sierra
Leone was in fact the place best suited for the
accommodation of the Commission.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The Portugal Slave Trade Bill, and the Duke
of Wellington's Estate Bill, were read a third
time and passed.
The Report of the Exchequer Bills on Aids Bill
was brought up, read, and ordered 4o be read a
third time on Monday.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed
ot, and the House adjourned at a Quarter pest
Twelve o'clock..

THE DUKE OF YORK.

Question the Ist.--hots not his Royal Highness draw fo-
'rage, or an allowance for forage, as Commander-in-Chief,

'hich enalles him to keep 30 horses at the public expense ;
afid,might not the horses so kept convey his Royal Highness

to and from Windsor at an expence not worthy of notice ?
.4mm/fr.—His Royal Highness does not draw forage, for 30
horses; lie did so during the war, but they have since been
reduced to forage for 10 horses; and this allowance, granted
on a larger scale to all firmer Commanders-in-Chief, could
nit in fairness and propriety towards the tillect for which it
is issued, he applied to the maintenance of horses to convey
his Royal Highness to and from Windsor.
Qnestion the 241.---Is it not an act of unusual indulgence,
in time of profound peace, to pay and employ his Royal High-
ness as Commander-in-Chief, the ditties of which office might
be executed, as in former days of peace, by the Secretary at
War

Anneer.—Tt is not an unusual indulgence of his Royal
Ilig!mess-to pay and employ a Commander-in•Chirf in times

of peac-e, and the dwirg of the offire could not possibly.he

ex,eculed Iry the Secretary at War, who is oecopital with ample

duties ;It own office, even if it were a wist n►eaanre to

plaer the discipliiw4d I¶i army in the bands of a ei‘ilian,

rood reader the pat:lot:lee an accession to political ipflaeare.
It *l4 not -4 unnAull," for, it will he found t.ha.t the !lithe of.

Marihortn4,l? %ea, Coutruantier-in-Citicf in a period of peace
in the,rarly hart of the at century; that the Dube of Cunt-

herland held the same osNee in a period of peace from 1718 to

17.';t7:! mot that thti Margne•as of Granby wits Commander-in-
( ITief in pace from I".fi3 to 1770. The. Appoititnient of a

Comnrinder-in Chief in time of pence depenAvd more. in

former peri,,ds, urn) the ri'ews and i.oley of the political
party of the day, I'l4 ' fro►► any ilupression that the office
was titlilecrgiary, P.% n ,y he proved in the instance of Marshal

Conway, who went out, as a matter of course, with the

Rockingham Adminis-tration. in 1753, and he was not sue-
o.eded in the following Administration,.because they had nu

fit toilitaTy mall to suit their purpose.

Queition Ibt' ad.—Du the number of bankruptcies which

daily take place in this kingdom prove that the country is in
a state to deviate from any ancient plan of public economy
.4, the haldirtiptcies 'may prove, tin an-

cictit plait of pohlic economy hay been deviated front with

refrrence to his 8.,,yal Highne4 personally. Ile has done
his duty to the cquntry, and all honest and liberal Britons

•
acknmOrdgeit.
CUestitM the 4th.—Has not his Royal Hi;hness lent his

*auction, o: a former occasioo, to a measure of economy, by

filch the preseitt General Sir G. Beckwith was rested with
the authority and rank of a General Officer, without receiving-
any additional pay as such, be being then employed as a Civil