The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-30 00:00:00

1111 E SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, MAY 30 1545.

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l'eer,

-iii

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t of,k,„„, - end educated, yet many applications were
f.'"•., to be deferred or delayed from a wan t•Ael:l4'st aie would not say from the apathy, but from
,_
egnorance of the public as to the benefits which were con-
Tessfmer d by the institution.—(Cheers.) More recently a sue-
-1 atterupt had been made to carry out the objects of the
astitution, and to afford in the asylum education to an ual
number of girls with the boys.—( Loud cheers.) This would,
tr,°:”.er' have been longer dela)ed had it not been for the
t, mficence of Mr. Matheson, M.P. who had recently re-
iu.rael from abroad—(Cheers)—and who had generously placed
bon, 1. at the disposal of the Committee, and a further loan. ofh
wr„l"`., 'without interest as a stimulus to the influential Scotus
:liants in the metropolis to imitate his example, for the
1. ablishment of the asylum for girls.—( Cheers. ) That addition
lad been reade—large sums had been subscribed—and a building
attePahle of accommodating the girls had been erected.—(Loud
L. era) The furniture was now in. that building, and it would
De ready for the reception of the girls, twenty-five in number,
ttili few das(
that
Cheers.) He was sorry to say, however,
zo:le_ Was a deficiency in the funds. They had been obliged to
"an inroad on their capital. Five hundred pound f
'41)44 h
he ~„ had been applied to the finishing of the building, hand.
Itnnued upon them to exert themselves on behalf of the in.
li e t iuo" °a
. --
~ , (Cheers. ) If he wished to enter into any explald-
he d" °L.fhe benefits derived from the institution, howh cou
th...o4reeslf so well as by pointing to the childreesionig whomeasily
..e4ine
~ surrounded?— ( Loud cheers.) They
sattittai the advantages which must be conferredh y such an
Ileiee 26 upon boys and girls circumstanced.as t ebse were.—
theyrif!eerS• ) They were placed in the position fro which
receir7,lv.ed these advantages at a very early age. They were ander ° Into the institution at the age of seven to ten years,
the 'belted there until they were fourteen, and while there
fe/ Were instructed in good, wholesome, religious. truthtc—at
frNeeers) They were brought up with those feelings, I l',erui of mind, and those inclinations which would make them
pi.,_ members of society, in whatever station it mightiio
eei-1:7 Providence to place them.—( Cheers. ) This wa.s
the
ehildr adt'antsge.—( Renewed cheering.) Not only e
eoote ell ef those who had lost their lives in defence were the
tot admitted to the asylum, but the children of oto dliPale.nts, who through adversity
.or sickness, had fallen
Melds cuities and were in indigent circumstances. In the
thfe2f the
Persons,although their station was humble, 1
(114 uen,Lne of the love of soffsuri was as powerful as it was in
kehee,;*, of those who were inuga different station of life.—.
ihreat;L) Those who were orph those who bad lost their
Leasitekie earlY life knew, and haar lelt'the full extent. of that
li*ibet eotileYsv_ ould be acting indeed in.a niggardly Tray th.ey
...Zh ,'ee forward with liberality in aid of an institution
inestimable benefits.
1144,?:reet soehceeerrtianin of conferring
did suchnot look for support
thing that
his ogw.i.,) Hneti. men, for he was happy
ike'lroltibt-o-e'tstulsc..ll.....wa.s the countrymen,
andy benevolent feeling subsisting
la vroLew o 0 diff
we united Kingdom, that in the United Kingdom
.0,4 ..4 or be erence whatever of north or south of Tweed
afterthe nevolence and charity.—(Cheers.) He knew
11:the _ children had left the society they always enter-
e eoufeerst grateful remembrance of the beknneefiwts which had
that when
1117 viere pie,_ nn thern—( Cheers)--.and he
01 always ere -sad in a '
position to manifest that gratitude they
e
Lidreu hoe(Chee ) and he would impress upon
es
irsh- ee: ere present,rs—more especially upon the elderion ,
its
he tuit to leave the asylum, that if .in itaftesrerifveme
leleZ°4l be tell': Power to render the institutionlafn3;t
shoulti
assb,-e ,Proeid,:el duty to de so.—( Cheers.
---.(cts:oat miltlee to prosper them, they o )1d be bound to
(Cri eers.) itlit in which they had reccivwedutheir education.
to detain efe 1,1 c was afraid he had detained them. too long.—
hete th ~1' eV') The task had been a pleasing one.htaolhinmot,
11 henkinke -;,,se and progress of the institution, but it.
th' t-aokeellii" with regiet at the present. state of their funds..
th: would era for the patient hearing they had given him,
trotaelves ag,ai3O urge upon them the necessity of exerting
lieee,l4ll th,-, nee utmost in support of the charity.—(Cheers ,)
their-"
that WILe had heard of the behaviour of the boys, he be-
,,„re.,„ii.,._ coedep-t•si.ad been most exemplary, and that they had, by
clafa of the,;fulfilled the utmost wishes of the warmest
csounp:
sup-
The thei.institution. " May God prosper them," )
ebille toast
was
Chairman, .. wherever they go."—(Cheers.
and the
roo urea, , as then drunk with three times three, Alt sedlieaey_ded by the pipers,. again marched round the
riisi • P. m.',,ag saluted the Chairman, left the hall.
10,,e a, e'rewaitir M.P., the treasurer, then. rose to
4'6 elle:Pert in reference to the charity, and was recived with
e 44tilaree.r:•_)(1, He said that he appeared before them as
belebi,bet i.a"rt, few, and far between. He knew not how it
sl ',
heather:the treasurer of a Scottish charitable institution, he
_4 ~,,
eas 7ePear before them as a treasurer in want than
aeru to tielro wealth, because he knew that he shouldn
in
d,, e. Isi eir feelings on behalf of their poor countryme
a s
ilegtttheeter did this institution need so much support
on
(614 Present moment this Scottish charity flourishingn._
ek_ sees. , soil, and never did institution so deserve su.ppo n
to
1-4.,foan:LvAn allusion had been made by the Chairma
in.
Need for tlion of that branch of the asylum which was
eate,,eatituet eauPport and education of the daughters of their
Ili "o eeeeeo The charity ought to have two wings, and to.
t, Sy kiiew of them over the sisters of the boys.—( Cheecs. )t
istlutalt. he had fought hard in the cause, and he had a righ
/itra itisCe had said, they would have the sisters of the
.bodys
laft4.ls,whtetkiels,. It was a fact that many of those little in i: %%tell e ',au Paraded round the room that evening,. had
Net;
.butt home in an equal state of destitution with them
4444 Wit „he hoped that they would soon be able to carry_
(toz.,ityheit: znir e to its fullest extent. On the sth of institution would be full fledged, and 17 out of
thelers.)e /iris would be admitted under their roof.—was
04 -0 oh II e 17th of the present month of last ear
th• ors the
they had celebrated their last anniversary.
Ol aY
t-e . had laid the foundation of that building
etleg:ar be -w completed, and twenty-tive poor girls wo
they would be
tilei,7lt4 0,, admitted to the charity,
heir klid
.principles, which would lead hereafter to
kq. lt-erceetneut in life. He knew that statements of ac-
tl4olPl. fp;dry—he knew
ot L'of cellds. There would
-le -6th e luPporters of the institution that evening, had it
.have sheen a fuller attend-
d marte'e 4t to
h:-.til-erk, any of them were compelled by duty to attend
414' erk , -,1.7 of another great and good charity—the Provi-
-1,,,! se.4 1.(% tit t. ( Cheers )—and many of those then
the -Ike 5'4 Perhaps,u —to ha ve been there, but that would
re ~_ 4
t,.
Though their people were few,
ciiiat:',Yle voli*, lit them.
,/,' b,`"4l lb d' he hoped, be full. The institution now
-he 'Aied Is • to those 25 girls were about
e ee,„4 , 14 .
-"It ertoratof ,tog 115 children in all.— Hear.
ttr:4erl, bee,le th,""er: etr.e9 to . the institutinotinmw(hearss2io2.
om the t.,4l!roseee. Zosid diminish as their
h eet this utecuditure
Ar
iteas the cost of each child. Now,
eY
were dPeede/ had nj trie institution 2,500/. a year, d
the benerelintlefueetif.er otfie
/ a fixed revenue of 600/. a year,
Scottish
p. remainder of their revenue upon
teal, destitute linzi of the Scottish heart for the
y,
' their fors as ' -", ttot of the Scottish heart
tve,,,, sident thenu been of
beautifully observed
*eh:" MI Work ' -11.1) • sofb "3 no feeling of north or south of
io4 Mted of
enevolence and charity.—( Cheers.) They.
The
tekah led a(ge.helb, and there was no chance of the union
J ere ,e_ requred: f
--e
e 'or%-at
ti;-; -"eers ) They had never yet failed to
Yd eow
stuependent
for or, the
is.uppoorntof the institution.
p unfixed sources.
It :lite thel would for
in '6°n°eed upon
support, and he
VaisbYo by
"'d worthily uphold the national character.
ehl 1--. th an/ sur lus h let them put it
4 t e treasue....., 1
hoaCtka7e. had mod , OX.---(cCasheers and laughter.)
.T.yhi_e
coalotLitidivia„ , albs) to the offers of one benevolen indi
lia •,,mitioh7U areoh"„e: was Ur. Matheson.—(Cheers. ) If he
tei.,),14 -s reention.,a' them and given them the 1,0001., on the
eo,l °f01,(1 have Tact 't by the Noble Duke, he hardly knew how
1,7. • girls. leded in founding this branch of the instt-
-u filialithout ! "Ist he had done more— he had lent them
ktil
w. tout
of ipterest. One of our greatest writer, had
taaled4i°,heeiet°o Most admirable characters was that of the
Nt:liowti4 worigcsacquired wealth by industr and integrity, ex-
% Nib °lle 01 tk °t Innn'fiCenCe.--( Cheers) Mr. Matheson
%ha cs,tiot,dinr"teeffice-bearers of the institi.tion.—( Cheers. )
seb.acuetaisoCreswet were dependent for ltbool. per annum
felt would urge them to go on regardless of
they might indulge in the most hopeful
ll 'tale. eotleed _ mre , for Scotchmen would not be. Scotch-
),4hy )44%4 th,..bs,ould not be Scotland, if they permitted such
Akiltst,,‘M any To be crippled for want of means.—( Cheers. )
elielkitcPy Uenevolent Scotchman ask what institution
ie s'•(Ch,, eir upport, let them say the Caledonian
,he ~li 044.18') If they heard any Christian pilgrim ask
i4-NrltliplikLue could contribute his mite, let them say to
fo Ihe 61 the C 1143.--(Loud cheers.) It was worthy the
(41te,t, teothshristian Pilgrim. The children were educated
1;:e, resek6l, Of ,iel Christianity. The Bible was the
tfacipis Their`ue education given in the institution.—
VICO and (hYoung minds were early imbued with religious
tt„ft. vPstiao _ ” never neglected the Bible, the foundation
Catte"tiilsoo,l7ucation.—( Cheers.
•4NI, dedih; 40, although still suffering from indisposition,
11,.1ie okelod 'a tneeting, then favoured the company with a
hi Oekt.,:_which was most exquisitely sung. . .
'NZ atis„,'.kv thee read the report of the subscriptions.
ellertorie, s'e°:., collected was 635/. ; of this 76/. were life
14.1tht hitiLLoe,4"4,l‘ I guineas annual subscriptions.
teteLk Sidl.abk e•,7l,so.„Proposed the health of the Chairman,
iWyk- ' and " rsighland honours. After which the pipers
loqa Nee: reel was danced b some of the Hhland
tsel:. o,..klitk,t, who were attired in the national costuigme.
Ne es,' el $ -Iv returned thauks
th:etis "ill ItNeAkT, M.
• .
Of i, aelen...L proposing the health of the 'aiCeebt 'oe Led,fi•u, reminded the company that. her Grace_
VOh 4 t.llj, eh Patronesses Patronesses of the Caledonian ball for
h e'aritY, which was fixed for Monday, 9th June
tttz...Att a of 4
,1 111:11Citi:iisolf_91:a,,ce was drank with Highland honours—
it'4t tt1;1411...... --' ureen grow the rashes, 0!" Having
1'4'41
all,
tithis,,,ahoi
Litt, fa:li:aid that they were. bound to drink the
:t 'Rlill/44V111 s„,_.gs of filial respect and gratitude. It was
i, I.l.e'frs, xaetY of London, the Parent of the Institu-
'iqer- to etlateiN° Society had done more good than the
acipe' the,toe,l °kat' done and he was rejoiced to know that
4411 4f. 414 :"itig et:dition. Whenever Scotsmen met
ti) 'the t ate• -orth t
e,p4,o4,tLittklee 0 e_ach other the right hand of fellow-
IliwIr: `64 stpleibit be'en((;heers).
gieltktkOot Wei.", nationuaUlitairw.ith the utmost enthusiasm,
latir 1,41 aleto 11 returned thanks on the part. of the
Ni 'loit,fr‘ad tii? . It was most gratifying to the Highland
i+otNiceiheti../t
Ira.Mstitution, of which it was the parent, so
i_vbk,' by tl7.t e,,,,i. 4 most pleasing spectacle to see, as they
VII.) "It PR, the boys, who were educated and sup-
‘letttiltiettllto Wast,itillat_iion, looking so healthy and so happy.—
% %a A tler, h ueed, a beautiful sight. He would not
,hilbtlegNii_syleto. 'it would, at once drink ff Success to the
-HartNl/44ildtt:tr• Qe,u,e (Cheers.)
• 0414,47 ;
k 4t.Y,_1144 e' hatidl4 Proposing " The Caledonian Society,"
ak. qtrliPregeri donation of fifty guineas, which the
,h_
.1/ 14,4,
Resident
hem.—(Cheers.)
Nee Z,,ela. of the Society, returned thanks in
kek oh_ winlairo,es ~it
: V of the toasts were then drunk : Vice-
at,m N ttel; Ilildrer,n.StitUti°W ; the Clergymen The
wbo have
.
00,44141ards of b, the Vice-Presidents and Directors t4lkt:dilile4ll coal,' l?ay. In proposing this latter toast,
441,.. kr letlf given with it the name of Mr. John Murray,
11, or
94:',4 guineas to the Society, and who had
tb244 '''..441
thit,;"44: hrrtFlkureetattkrned thanks,
.erg ed,
theireceded by the pipers, and accom-
c;,kt h .........._,...ff nstitution, and the company sePa-
-rel. .411,
4 ktkd i4PheryTh2,l----------li---
Oki, Wil avour of , red off with Mr. Alderman
Stlttil, of into %on, wh .uord John Russell's resolutions.
ultht tieez ° has been compelled by a severe
qto-‘4t ' is no, 4 to postpone his entertainments for a
It telt etti' quite r
t.„41.4a
„Ne log, h ecovered, and will resume his
oeit a bt' Whor, next
Monday, at the Music Hall,
,' al of of the 3 00 will give' " Anither Nicht wi'
oett,k o,ettrus,B least awe give portion of which is his
'lttater.,,c :I'd oeuvre, the humorous poem of
hi, l'A.r,
10% ', 0 The songs, also, are among Burns's
'ra ), be tTR
4 Vir*itti t 4 for '4'b•.--Tbere Was a steady market
140*11..4terld Yarn l,, Iti,,_-• I One, and goods and prices of both were very
1.1t,,,t1-: or
411,..ih0 b: i.td..v.ance in' several descriptions of yarn,
listii4e4.444:ll:iteaaseoue-tiaieeheosintipaiii...ngisn,ch printing-cloth and the inferior
.which had been previously some..
tea. eoleii•-e.atooda_eu with other fabrics. The Rochdale
The .' far flannels MaY 26.---There has been about an
Mlita.l°l taarkuel.' t*-daY, with little or no change in
%cma: fa much the Sanle as that of last week.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, Mae 29.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock.
The Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway Bill was read
a third time and passed.
The Exeter and Crediton Railway Bill was also read a third
time and passed.
Lord ASHLEY appeared at the Bar, and reported, as Chair-
man of the Group IF, that the Committee had met that morn-
ing and had waited for one hour for the attendance of Captain
Bernal Osborne, but he did not make his appearance.
Captain B. OSBORNE stated that he had had a fall, which
had so much injured him that he could not attend the Com-
mittee. He was anxious to get rid of his attendance on the
Committee.
After some observations from Lord G. SOMERSET, upon
the motion of Air. L A BOUCHERE, the Hon. and Gallant
Member was excused from further attendance on the Com-
mittee.

backed as he was by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
her Majesty's Government. The Right Hon. Baronet de-
scribed the prisons throughout the country for the incarcera-
tion of prisoners to be miserable places, mere black-holes, unfit
for human beings to be placed in. He had himself been much
influenced by the statement of the Right Hen. Baronet,
though he knew that the prison at Bristol was not such a one
as had been described. Formerly the evil was that the debtor
was entirely at the mercy of the creditor, but now they had
gone as far wrong the other way by placing the creditor at the
mercy of the debtor. The change had been too violent and
sudden in its operation. Meetings had been held in the prin-
cipal towns in England relative to this clause, and they had
been unanimous in condemning it. Mr. Commissioner Fane
and Mr. Commissioner Evans had stated that it would afford a
refuge to all the rogues of the country. It was calculated
that previous to the operation of this clause fifty
millions sterling were annually lost by insolvents, and
he thought it would be difficult to calculate what would be the
amount of increase on that sum, if the further operation of that
clause were allowed. In fact every debt under 201. was looked
upon as a debt of honour, and the courts rather presented a point
of attraction to debtors, as affording them an easy mode of
cheating their creditors. It was strange doctrine to urge in its
favour, that it would be the means of putting an end to credit.
He did not know how a commercial country like this could do
without the system of credit. He admitted that credit was
liable to abuse, but what was there that was not liable to abuse?
They protected the credit of the wealthy man, and he saw no
reason why they should not protect the poor man equally.
They gave every facility to the wholesale trader for the recovery
of his debts, but they turned their back upon the retail dealer.
The creditortwhose debt amounts to 211. might say with some
effect to his debtor, " pay me the 211. you owe me." But
if the debt happened to be 191., the debtor might laugh in his
face. He should like the Honourable Baronet to define the
difference between the two. Was he to be told that the
man who was in debt 211. ought to be imprisoned, and that he
whose debts amounted only to 191. should be allowed to escape
with impunity? It was urged that the total absence of credit
would be conducive to the welfare and well-being of the
working classes ; but he denied this. It was, in his opinion,
highly essential that the labourer, be he manufacturing or
agricultural, should be allowed to have credit, and if they re-
fused it to him his cup of misery would be full. He con-
sidered the poor man ought to be cared for as well as the rich.
It was known that this country was deteriorating into a vitiated
state, and the effects of the Bill had been described by a
writer of the present day as having disseminated a spirit of
mistrust in both public and private life, and, in the end, it
had so enervated the energies of the people, that the popula-
tion had been led into a system of self-abandonment
as regarded running into debt. It was a notorious fact that
seven-tenths of the people anticipated their incomes. It was
useless to suppose that the extravagant expenditure of the reck-
less could be hindered, or that this class would be prevented
from incurring debt, when there were so many trades.nen
willing to give them credit, by any such measure as the 201.
clause. There was no doubt that. among tradespeople there
were many individuals who would not encourage extravagant
expenditure or the incurring of debt, but he would quote the
language of the immortal bard Shakespere, which would show
that all would not be guided by similar rules :
" Dost thou think, because thou'rt virtuous,
There shall be no more cakes and ale? Ay, by St. Anne,
And ginger shall be hot i' th' mouth, too."
Honesty might be found its fustian, and often was discovered
amongst the lowest classes, in whom it had sometimes been
thought it was not always to be found. Under these circum-
stances, then, he would ask, what protection was it intended to
give tradesmen ? for already every protection had been taken
from them. The tradesman must he protected, and in order to
this, the House should first make an inquiry, and that was all
he now asked. The Honourable Member then read
a paper, in which it was stated that a tradesman
had been ruined by giving credit in small sums, besides hav-
ing to pay the income-tax, for which the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had his hand in his pocket. In fact, if any tradesman
who was obliged to give credit in sums up to 201. were not
exempt from the income-tax, he could never get on. He held
in his hand a list of many unsuccessful tradesmen, but he would
not weary the House with it ; he would merely say this, that
tradesmen were driven to discharge their workmen and to re-
duce their expenses. The nature of cases tried in small
courts, and he had several in point, was this—a small debt was
due from some person to a tradesman, and being desirous to re-
cover it, imprisonment being abolished, the sheriff was put
into the debtor's house. A relation, the landlord, or some
person at a distance, claimed the goods, an action was threat-
ened, and the sheriff was withdrawn. In nine cases out of ten
they would find that the sheriff was withdrawn because the
creditor preferred submitting to the first loss, rather than in-
volving himself or others in trouble, which would be entailed
upon him by t..king the case before a jury. There was
now a woman named Goole, aged ninety, confined in
Bristol gaol for a debt of 241., and who had small
sums owing to her, under 202., more than sufficient to
cover the debt for which she was incarcerated. By the opera-
tion of the Act, the fees to officers in small courts were mate-
rially diminished, and the deficiencies in their salaries had to
come out of the Consolidated Fund. The aggregate annual
salaries of four clerks, in the Southwark Court of Requests,
was 2,2411. 10s., which was created by fees. During the first
six months after the Act came into operation, there was a de-
ficiency of 7161. 18e. 4d.. se that in twelve months a deficiency
of 14,432/. 16s. Bd. would be created in their usual emolms
meats, which would have to be made good out of the Conso-
lidated Fund. And as a Committee of that House appeared to
him the most fitting tribunal to inquire into the evils of which
he complained—at once the mode most dignified for the House,
and most congenial to the poor and oppressed tradesman, he
trusted the Right Hon. Baronet would grant the inquiry with-
out hesitation. If, however, the Government should object to
the appointment of the Committee, he should take the sense
of the House on the expediency of his proposition, and press
the matter to a division.

Mr. KEMBLE briefly seconded the motion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said if he understood the Hon. Gentle.
man, who had introduced the motion, aright, the object sought
to be accomplished by the Committee was how the provisions
of the Act, passed last session, respecting small debts, had ope-
rated upon tradesmen. If that was the object sought to be
obtained, then he did not see any good that would result from
it, as certain of the evils complained of had commandell the at-
tention of a Noble Lord of high legal acquirements (the Lord
Chancellor); and he had prepared a Bill on the subject,
which had been brought into the other House of Parliament.
The Hon. Gentleman said that his object was not to repeal the
law of last session, but to effect an improvement in it. He
(Sir James Graham) rejoiced at it, as he believed nothing
could exhibit such a want of sympathy with and indifference to
the interests of the working classes as the re-enactment of im-
prisonment• for small debts. The measure had, upon the
whole, worked well. No complaints had been made about
it from the great body of the people—the complaint had issued
from the tradesmen. who considered themselves injured by it,
but who, he might remark, had the remedy in a great measure in
their own hands—the withholding of credit.—Hear, hear. )
He was willing, however, to admit that there were defects in
the Act of last session, but he denied that it was what
the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. H. Berkeley) had described
is—a piece of crude legislation. To no measure introduced
during the last 20 years had so much attention been paid, or
more pains bestowed. The charge of indecent haste, or party
legislation was, therefore, net at all applicable to the question.
No arguments could have been adduced that were not
then fully heard upon this question ; and when he heard the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman, he expected to have heard him
conclude with some such motion as a proposition for the re-
peal of the Act of last session. His (Sir J. Graham's) own
opinion was that the present Bill was not sufficiently stringent
or summary against debtors to the amount of 201. The Lord
Chancellor had assured him that he had given his most earnest
attention to the Government Bill, and in a very few days he
hoped it would be laid before the House. Under these cir-
cumstances be hoped the House would suspend its opinion upon
the subject till they heard more of it.—( Hear.) He admitted
last session that this Bill required scme amendment and al-
terations; and having made that admission, he did hope the
House would wait until the Bill came before it in an amended
form.

Mr. PARKER said he had but very few observations to
make. He hoped the system of imprisonment would not be
revived, and thought the declaration of the Right Hon. Baronet
would be satisfactory to the House. The Bill contained a very
stringent clause, which, in his opinion, would have prevented
the occurrence of some of the evils complained of, had it been
acted upon at the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Courts.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS regretted that the Committee was not
to be appointed, because had there been a Committee the
small tradesmen, who complained of the Bill, would have had an
opportunity of stating to the House what were the real and
practical difficulties they suffered.
Mr. HAWES said he did not wish to revive the oppression
on the debtor which had been formerly practised. He thought
the only effect of appointing the proposed Committee would be
to cushion the measure coming down from the other House of
Parliament. The country was very anxious for an improve-
ment in the measure of last session, and the appointment
of a Committee now would only impede that desirable im-
wovement. He thought, therefore, that Hon. Members on
his own side of the House ought not to press the motion.—
( Hear, hear.) As to raising a debate upon the worn-out
question of imprisonment for debt, he had thought every thing
that could be said upon it had been said long ago. The Hon.
Member concluded by saying, he hoped the Hon. Mover would
not press his motion.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the alteration of im-
prisonment for debt upon final process under 201. had been
made because of the miseries which debtors had suffered under
the old law. He was now willing to believe from the ex-
perience he had of the present law, that the creditor was not
sufficiently protected, and if any further protection could be
given to him it would be moat desirable ; at the same time he
would be most cautious of placing in the hands of the creditor
any arbitrary power. He hoped the Hon. Member would
withdraw his motion. In case the measure devised in the House
of Lords did not give the desired protection to the creditor, he
would do all in his power to make it do so.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SPOONEIt hoped the Hon. Gentleman would with-
draw his motion.

Mr. BERKELEY said, he thought he could net do less
than withdraw his motion, after what had been said by the So-
licitor-General, and the Rigbt Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
of State for the Home Department. He would leave the mat-
ter in the bands of the Government, with the most perfect
confidence of the result.

Colonel RAWDON said there were some hundreds of
persons confined in prisons in Ireland, for small debts, and he
hoped the provisions of the Bill would be extended to that
country.
The motion was then withdrawn.
IRIS HCHURCH- RATES.

Mr. Sergeant MURPHY moved that the House resolve
itself into a Committee, to take into consideration the Act 17
and 18 Car. 2, c. 7, intituled " An Act for provision of Mi-
nisters in Cities and Corporate Towns, and making the church
of St. Andrews, in the suburbs of the city of Dublin, presen-
tative for ever," with a view to the repeal of so much thereof
as relates to the payment of ministers in corporate towns in
Ireland. On looking at the census of Ireland for 1841, he
found that in the City of Cork, the Catholics of Ireland were
in the ratio of six and a half to one, while the amount of mi-
nisters' money raised there amounted to no less than 12,000/.
It was for the removal of a source of so much acrimony and
heartburning, that he now solicited the interposition of the
House, for the removal of a burthen obnoxious not only to the
Roman Catholics but avast proportion of Protestants of Ireland.
He was aware that when he approached this question he might
be met by the objection of the difficulty of finding a substitute--
that substitute he would seek in the revenues of the Established
Church ; and in making that suggestion he was not amenable
to the insinuation that such a measure would divert the pro-
perty of the Protestant Church in Ireland to other and foreign
purposes. This arrangement would be at once satisfactory to
the Roman Catholics, and certainly not unjust to the Pro-
testants of the country. He would not detain the House by
any further observations, trusting that the spirit which had of
late been evinced by the Government would be carried out in
the present advantageous opportunity.
Sir H. W. BARRON seconded the motion.
Sir T. FREMANTLE did full justice to the tone and spirit
in which the Hon. Member for Cork had brought forward his
resolution, and admitted to the full the obnoxious character of
the tax. But while the Government were impressed with that
conviction, and had submitted the subject to a rigid investiga-
tion as well as a most anxious consideration, they had
felt the extreme difficulty of removing these imposts, more
especially as no substitute could be either suggested or de-
vised. The ease was not quite so bad as the Hon. Gentleman
had represented it to be. A similar tax prevailed at Edin-
burgh and elsewhere. He hoped, under the circumstances,
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would withdraw his motion.
Mr. ROCHE thought the Government was really bound to

find a substitute for this tax. It was very well for his Hon.
and Learned Friend on the opposite side to say that he would give
the subject his best consideration ; but they wanted something
better. They wanted to get rid of the abuse altogether—they
wanted a pledge that the House would deal with this question,
which they had admitted to be an abuse, in the present session.
An HON. MEMBER here moved that the House be counted,
when, 40 Members net being present, the House adjourned at
a Quarter to Eight o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
WEDNESDAY, MAY 28.
NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL OFFICE.
Hull and Selby (Bridlington Branch) Railway,—Third
reading, Friday, May 30.
Newcastle and Berwick Railway,—•Report, Friday, May 30.
Newcastle and Darlington Railway (Brandling Junction),
—Report, Friday, May 30.
Harwich Railway,—Committee on petition, postponed from
Friday, May 30, till Monday, June '2.
Yarmouth and Norwich Railway,—Report,P'riday,May 30.
Lowestoft Railway Harbour,—Report, Friday, May 30.
Leeds and West Riding Junction Railway,—Committee on
re-committed Bill, Thursday, May 29, at twelve.
West Cornwall Railway,—Committee on petition, for addi-
tional provision, Friday, May 30.
Lynn and Ely Railway,—Third reading, Friday, May 30.
Bristol and Exeter Railway Branches,—Third reading,
Friday, May 30.
Ely and Huntingdon Railway,—Third reading, Friday,
May 30.
Newcastle upon Tyne and North Shields Railway (Tyne-
mouth Extension),—Report, Friday, May 30.
Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway (Keymer Brunch),
—Report, Friday, May 30.
Bridgewater Navigation and Railway,—Committee on re-
committed Bill, Monday, June 2, at three.
Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Railway,—Committee on
Petition, for additional Provision, Friday, May 30.

The following Bills were read a third time, and pealed :
Manchester and Leeds (Burnley Branch and Heywood and
Oldham Branches Extension).
Leeds and Bradford Extension Railway (Shipley to Colne).
Leeds, Dewsbury, and Manchester Railway.
Huddersfield and Manchester Railway and Canal.
Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction Railway.
Chester and Holyhead Railway.

The Birmingham and Gloucester Railway (Worcester
Branch and Cheltenham Extension),—Report from Select
Committee on Standing Orders read; Bill ordered to be
brought in by Mr. Dugdale, Mr. Newdegatc, and Mr
Spooner.

RAILWAY COM AHTTEES.

(YESTERDAY.)

Group K.
LONDON AND NORWICH DIRECT LINE.
The Committee on this line met at the usual hour this morning,
Lord Sandon in the chair.

Mr. Rodwell cross.examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—Thetford is the
most unproductive part of the country through which the Direct
Norwich will pass. Has known the county of Sussex fur 22
years. There is a very excellent turnpike-road between Bury and
Thetford, over which there is a most extensive traffic conveyed
both by snails and waggons.

William Hubbard, examined by Mr. GIRDEN—Is a captain in
the navy resident at Bury, having taken considerable interest in
the various projects for accommodating the districts of Sussex and
Norwich. Attended a very numerous meeting at the above town,
at which Lord Jermyn, Admiral Sir Hyde Parker, and other
influential parties attended, when resolutions in favour of the
Direct Norwich line were almost unanimously passed. The price
of coals during last year at Bury varied from 325. to 40s. This
article is at present brought from Lynn, where the price is I Is. or
I es. ; and by the formation of the Norwich Direct line it could be
brought from that town or Yarmouth at little more than 16s. or
188.; and, as between 16,000 and 18,000 tons of coal are annually
consumed at Bury, the advantage in that respect conferred by the
proposed line would be most considerable.

Cross-examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—Cannot tell what the popu.
halms between Chelmsford and Bury St. Edmunds is; nor is pre-
pared to say what the traffic on either of the competing lines would be.
Mr. B. Jennings, examined by Mr. ALEXANDER, Q.C.—ls a
coal and corn-merchant of Bury, where he has resided above
twenty years. Imports about 500 tons of coal annually. There
are fourteen other coal-merchants in the town importing far more.
Between 15,000 and 16,000 tons, coming from Lynn, are annually
consumed there. The present charge for freight be.
tween Bury and Lynn is ss. per ton, the toll
3s. 4d., and expenses for cartage at Bury 2s.—in all, 10s. 4d. for
conveyance between the towns. He imports between 9,000 and
10,000 quarters of seed annually, or in weight about 500 tons.
From April 17, 1844, to April 9, 1845, the quantity of
corn sold at the Bury market was 127,958 quarters,
besides 4,000 tons of other seed. All this amount
had to be carried, by a very tedious land carriage, to the different
consuming ports; besides these estimates, taken from the
public returns, above one-third for which no account
is given should be added. About sixty thousand quarters
of barley are annually sold at the Bury market.
The cost for conveyance of seeds between Bury and London is 311 s.
a ton. Calculating the rate by rail at 2s. per ton per mile, the
charge, on the construction of a line to the metropolis, would be
Is, a too, thus effecting a saving of I9s. a ton.
Cross-examined by Mr. RAWLINSON—There is a very large malt-
ing business carried on at Sudbury. Would prefer sending his
barley to Bishop-Stortford than to Sudbury. The nature of the
country between Bury and Thetford is unproductive and the soil
very light. Does not know for what the land lets in the neigh-
bourhood. A great deal of oats comes to Bury from Lincoln.
A line from Lynn to Cambridge would not be a more economical
means of transit for that produce than by the proposed direct
Norwich. The cheapest market both for foreign and home oil-cake is
London ; the cheapest mode of its conveyance to Bury is the water
navigation from Lynn, by the Lecke. The coal that comes from
Ely is inland produce. From Bury to Barton Mills
the distance is twelve miles, on which 3s 4d. toll
is demanded for the carriage of goods. Corn would be more
benefited by a railway, as far as the merchants are concerned, but
coal as regards the inhabitants generally.
J. E. Lacon,:examined by Mr. GlRDEN—l6brother of Sir E. Lacon,
and has for many years resided at Yarmouth as banker and brewer.
During the late winter, when the water navigation was closed, and
the strike in the north existed, Norwich would have been left
wholly unsupplied with coal and corn but for the railway accom-
modation. The distance from Norwich to Bury, by Yarmouth and
Thetford, is 611 miles, and by Diss and Beccles 62k. When the
various projects for accommodating Yarmouth were first brought
forward a Committee of gentlemen was deputed to examine into
the merits of each. The advocates of them all sent in their propo-
sitions, their rates of distances, and every particular, when the
Committee decided in favour of the Norwich Direct Line, and the
inhabitants of Yarmouth subsequently confirmed that decision, and
requested their members to support the Bill in Parliament.
Thomas Goocher, examined by Mr. GIRDEN—Was formerly a
butcher at Bury, but from the want of accommodation between
that town and the metropolis left it a year ago, and now
carries on his business at Stortford. Has often paid as
much as 501. a week for the carriage of his meat to
the London market. The country about Bury is
the finest grazing land in the kingdom, perhaps in the world.
Should a railway he constructed that would connect Bury with
London, by a route not longer than sixty or seventy miles, he
might return to his former town, but if the distance could not be
made less than 100, he would remain at Storford.

Cross.examined by Mr. Rawl.'NsoN—By grazing country he
meant turnip land, not grass, as in the counties of Devon, Glouces-
tershire, and Somersetshire. There is very little if any grass in
the neighbourhood of Bury.
The Speaker having been here announced at prayers, the Com-
mittee adjourned.

Group DD.
THE CALEDONIAN AND THE GLASGOW, DUMFRIES

Glasgow, was )8i miles in favour of the Caledonian and as re-
spected Edinburgh, the distance saved was 66 miles. it would
also be the most direct and convenient route to the west' of Scot-
land, and from thence to the Irish coast, if the branch froi vi Dum—
fries were continued.
Mr. Smith said he considered the Caledonion line was loafer"
able, both with respect to the accommodation which it would :Bird
to the through traffic, and to the local traffic, and also, fro la its
central position, would be very advantageous for the later d
tricts. He considered that the Nithsdale line passed throu
ih
much uncultivated country as the Caledonian.
On cross.examinatio», he admitted that there was more mica
strata, which was useful for agricultural purposes, on the Nitl isdale
line than on the Caledonian.

Mr. Anderson, coal master at Sanquebar, deposed as ti the
general superiority of the Caledonian liLie for the traffic in min orals.
Mr. Landells, mining engineer, gave evidence to show th. at the
mineral traffic of the Dumfries line had been considerably over-
stated. In his opinion, the tables of that Comp. InY had been ex-
aggerated to the extent of more than 5,0001.
Mr. Tyrell considered that the cattle tables calculated by tire
Dumfries Company were not correct, and were gre, dly exagge..
rated, especially as regarded the cattle coming from t he north ca
England.

Mr. Anderson gave corroborative testimony, and concu tred ge—
nerally with what had been previously stated.
' '

Mr. Collister, civil engineer, thought the estimates that h ad been
prepared by Mr. Miller for the construction of the Dumfr ies line
were fully 34C,000/. under what they ought properly to hav e been
calculated at.

Mr. Errington concurred entirely in the opinion of the pn 'rims
witness, and said that he had found from experience that the esti-
mates generally for the construction of railways were under c slcu-
lation; and, to guard against this error, the estimates of the t ':ale-
donian line had been framed accordingly. In his calculation of ' the
expense of the Dumfries line he had been guided entirely by the
same principle that governed his estimates for the construction 5 .of
the Caledonian line.

Tho Committee adjourned till half-past eleven tomorrow.

Group H H.