The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 21.
(OVAL ASSENT,
The Royal Assent was given to-day, at a quarter before five
o'clock, by Commission, to no less than ninety,:htee Bills,
among Whieh were—the Assessed Taxes Composition Bill,
Sir Henry Pottinger's Annuity Bill, the Timber Ships Bill,
the Oaths Dispnsatien Bill, `Vest India Islands Relief Bill,
Seal=nfliee Abolition Bill, Museums of Art Bill, Public Mu-
..

ieums Bill, Canal Companies Carriers Bill, Dog Stealing
Bill, the Infeftment (Scotland) Bill, Banking (Scotland) Bill,
Statute Labour (Scotland) Bill, Arrewment of Wages (Scot-
land) Bill. Schoolmasters (Scotland) Bill, Banking (Ireland)
811, Cons'aUes Public Works (Ireland) Bill, Gl,sop Gas
Bill, the Glasgow Bridges Bill, the Totnes Markets 1110
Waterworks Bill, the Wolverhampton Waterworks Bill,

the Lyme RPgis Improvement Market and Waterworks
Bill, the Dundee Waterworks Btll, the Blackburn

Waterwo-ks Bill, the Hartlepool Pier and Port Bill,
the Kendal Reservoirs Bill, the Manchester Improvement
Bill, the Chelsea Improvement Bill, the Belfast Improve-
ment Bill, the Agricultural and Commercial Bank
of Ireland Bill, the Queen-borough Boroughs Bill, the Forth
and Clyde Navigation and Canal Bill, the Manchester Court
of Record Bill, the Reversionary Interest Society Bill, the
Keyningham Drainage BM, the Shipley Lane Head and
Branches Road Bill, the Hansvell and Streatly Road Bill, the
Winwick Rectory Bill, Lady Sandys' (Turner's) Estate Bill,
the Kidwelly Inclosure Bill, and the following Railway Bills:
Railway Clauses Consolidation (Scotland),
London and Greenwich,
Belfast and Ballymena,
North British,
Lancaster and Carlisle,
York and North Midland ( Harrogate Branch),
North Wool ich,
Guildford Junction,
Waterford and Kilkenny,
Exeter and Crediton,
Bridgewater Navigation and Railway,
Sheffield and Rotherham,
Edinburgh and Glasgow,
Newcastle and Darlington (Frandling Junction),
Southamt t tn and Dorchester,
Eastern Union,
Glati ;ow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr ( Cumnock Branch),
Dundalk and Enniskillen,
Eastern Union ( Bury St. Edmunds),
Londonderry and Enniskillin,
Chester and Birkenhead,
Whitehaven and Furness,
Manchester, Bury, and Rossendale,
Great North of England and Richmond,
Blackburn and Preston,
Leeds and Thirsk,
Huddersfield and Manchester,

North Wales,
Taw Vale Railway and Dock,
Manchester and Birmingham ( Ashton branch),
Ashton, Staleybridge, and Liverpool Junction,
Eastern Counties ( Ely and Whittlesea Deviation),
Manchester South Junction and Altrincham,
Trent Valley,
London andlßrighton (Horsham Branch),
Ulster Extension,

North Wales Mineral,
North Union and Ribble Navigation
St. Helen's Canal and Railway,
Great North of England (Hartlepool Branch),
Great Western ( Ireland) (Dublin to Mullingar and Athlone)
Cockermouth and Workington,
Richmond (Surrey),
_ _

Cork and liandon,

Liverpool and Manchester,
Great Southern and Western (Ireland),
Preston and Wyre,

L 3 nn and Der ham,
Middlesborough and Redear,

Dubin and Drogheda,
Newry and Enniskillen,

Dublin and Belfast,

Waterford and Limerick.
The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of
Buctleuch, and Lord Wharneliffe.
Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills.
THE PENINSULAR ARMY.

The Duke of RICHMOND begged leave to present a peti-
tion from the veteran officers in the Peninsular campaign, request-
ing their Lordships to recommend to her Majesty such rewords
as they might think proper. The petitioners said they would
not trouble them with the details of their services—the thanks
of both Houses had been often voted to the army in which they
served, and which was the best proof of the high nature of their
services. The walls of Parliament had often echoed with
most melancholy forebodings that the British army would be
obliged to fly to their ships for refuge, and that they would be
forced to return to their native land, defeated and disgracrd.
But the transcendant abilities of his Noble Friend (the Duke
of Wellington) had averted that great calamity, and the Penin-
sula was freed and the flag of England was planted on the sod
of France. Every man must admit the claim of those brave
officers. How gallantly they opposed the victorious legions
of Napoleon—men brought up and educated in war. He did
not say that even the refusal of the prayer of the petition
would have any effect on the British army, for they would ever
feel bound to maintain the honour of their Sovereign. The
natural bravery of the soldiers, their enthusiasm, and the esprit
du corps which existed among them—the feeling that each in-
dividual had, that upon the success of his own personal exer-
tions depended the fate of the day —would always make the
soldiers do their duty. But he asked, as an act of duty—as the
payment of a debt of gratitude—the granting of the claim
which the petitioners sought. He concurred with those
petitioners ; but, at the same time, be must say that
be had no wish to impute blame to any one, still less to his
Noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington) whom he had always
regarded with feelings of admiration and respect. He blamed
not those who had conferred medals on the brave men of
Waterloo. nor on those who had fought in China and India,
hut he asked was it right that these brave men whom he repre-
sented should .be left with no other marks of glory than their
wounds ? Why should not these soldiers receive equal com-
pensation? He felt personally complimented by those brave
men having placed their petition in his hands, and hoped their
Lordships would think fit to grant its prayer.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the petitioners had done
him but justice in stating that he had never mentioned the war
in the Peninsula except in praise of the conduct of the officers
who served in it ; but, with all respeet, he did not think either
House of Parliament could properly interfere in a case of this
description. Some years had now elapsed since these same
petitioners had made an application to him—it was
in the year 1840, and upon precisely similar grounds.
He then stated to these officers the position in
which he stood towards them and towards the Government

fora considerable number of years. He stated to them, that
for several years he had reported to the Government their
conduct as members of the Peninsular army, and that their
conduct had been brought under the notice of their Sovereign.
He further stated on that occasion that rewards to the army
was not a subject in which he could interfere. These were
acts for the Sovereign and for the advisers of the Sovereign,
and did not come into his province. lie recommended to these
gentlemen at that time to make their application at the proper
quarter, but upon inquiry upon the present occasion he found
they had not done so. Nearly the whole British army served
in that war. The two Houses of Parliament returned their
thanks to that army, as it had served in no less than sixteen
distinct engagements. Medals were struck in commemoration
of distinguished actions in the Peninsula on no less than
nineteen different occasions,and were distributed to no fewer than
1,300 officers. A new system of promotion was now instituted by
means of special brevets, as a reward to those officers who had
particularly distinguished themselves. Officers of inferior
brevet rank were allowed to retire on superior rank, and to re•
ceive the pay and allowances attached to those ranks. These
were solid boons conferred by the public on these individuals.
There were among the Noble Lords present, no less than seven
Noble Lords who had been promoted to the Peerage for distin-
guished military services, rendered either by themselves or
their fathers, or grandfathers, and not less than 400 Orders of
the Bath had been conferred on officers serving in the Penin-
sular army, being very neatly one-half of the whole num-
ber. The late Sovereign hail been pleased to confer a medal
on every individual who served in the battle of Waterloo,
which honour had not been conferred before. The battle of

Lord ELDON presented a petition from the University of
Oxford against the Colleges ',lreland Bill). f
Lord STANLEY presented four petitions, one from 13 pro.
fessors of the Belfast Academical Institution ; one from the

managers of the same institution, signed by the secretary on
their behalf; one from the Literary and Scientific Institution,
aril another from th- inhabitants of the same city, genera'ly.
Lord STANLEY, in rising to move the second reading of
the 13111 for the establishment of provincial colleges in Ireland,
said, that he need not remind their Lordships that her Ma
jesty, on delivering her speech at the opening of Parliament
this session, recommended that the promotion and encourage-
ment of education in Ireland should form a prominent feature

of their consideration. In accordance with 'that gracious re-
quest he now had to lay before the House a bill founded on
principles of liberality towards Ireland, and with prospects of
leading to infinite benefits. It was a measure which, brought
forward with the best intentions of her Majesty's Government,
had been received in the Lower House with support, if not
cordiality, and if not passed with unanimity was at least agreed
to by a great majority. In the course that had been pursued
by Governments for the last half century in granting a liberal
education to the country one great omission had been made.
While the means of instruction were liberally accorded to the
highest and the very lowest ranks, that class which re•
quired it chiefly had been overlooked—he alluded
to the middle class. In using that term " middle class," he
meant that class just below the highest, and just above the
lowest class. But while the opportunities for education had
been but tardily and narrowly extended to the middling
classes of the entire kingdom, if there were one part where
such education was more necessary than in another, it was in
Ireland. There the discordant elements of conflicting creeds
national prejudices, and political acerbities, rendered a system
of united education more especially necessary, and yet, with
the exception of the Belfast Institution, there was no esta-
blishment whatever but Trinity College, Dublin, where mem-
bers of bath religions, Catholic and Protestant, could be edu-
cated together. And although in Trinity College there were
at present, he was happy to say, more than one hundred
Roman Catholics receiving education on the kindliest
terms with their fellow students of the antagonistic
creed, yet the establishment was an exclusive—he would not
use the term " sectarian" institution. It was for the pur-
pose of supplying this deficiency, of remedying the evil thus
likely to increase,that the present measure had been introduced.
And he was sorry to observe that a petition had been just pre-
sented by a Noble Lord near him—(Lord Eldon )—from several
members of the University of Oxford, deprecatory of the pro-
posed measure, and urging that the old system, as originally
adopted in the English Universities, should be applied to all
academical institutions, and never departed from.—( Hear,
hear.) Such a proposition might be very suitable to a
country. where no religious institutions existed, but was
wholly incompatible with a policy for conciliating animosities
and cementing religious differences. He was aware that a sys-
tem involving the principle of endowing the Roman Catholic
Church ( ft,r he was ready fully and frankly to declare his adop-
tion of that alternative) he was aware that such a system met
the disapprobation of many whwe opinions and even prejudices
should be respected. He (Lord Stanley) was willing to admit
that science should be the handmaid of relig'on, and while he

deprecated the extension of that apothegm to every instance,
such as of followers ofdistinctive religionsassembled for instruc-
tion in one institution, he was not favourable to the proposition
of some, that the doors of an exclusive establishment should be
thrown open alike for all persuasions. Thus, it had been suggested
as a remedy for the present deficiency in educational opportuni-
ties in Ireland, that Trinity College, Dublin, should be free
to all denominations, even to the admission to its corporate

rights. And here he wished to do an act of justice to an
Honourable and Leareed Gentleman, from whose political

principles he almost invariably dissented. In the year 1825,
Mr. O'Connell stated, in evidence before a Committee of
that House, that he deprecated, as an act of gross injustice, the
diversion of the funds of Trinity College, Dublin, to the
Roman Catholics? The effect of such a system would be, not
only acerbity between the three novel and the one existing
college, but a spirit of individeality, if he might so expresshim-
self, would spring up and induce the Presbyterians to fre-
quent the Presbyterian College, the Protestant the Pro-
testant, and the Roman Catholic the Roman Catho-
lic, for the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion,
or other extraneous requirements. In that opinion he
(Lord Stanley) cordially concurred, but, on the rejection of
such a proposition, how could they devise a satisfactory substi-
tute? Would they establish in Dublin three colleges,
one for Presbyterians, one for the Church of England, or
Episcopalians, and another for the Roman Catholics.
At the period when the Irish Education scheme was first
mooted, in 1821, there was a proviso that all persons should be
compelled to attend the services of their respective churches
every Sunday. That clause was, however, sub-equently struck
out, because the Members of the Church of England and of
the Presbjterian denomination said it would be a sin to recom-
mend persons of the Roman Catholic persuasion to attend their
church. Would that tend to do away with the charge of pro-
selytism and of unsettling the minds of the young men in their
colleges? Would it be likely to tend to reconcile the good feel-
ings of persons of different religious persuasions, by introduc-
ing a system which would have a tendency to proselytism ? He
would never consent that such a system should be introduced.
He wished to speak with all respect of the memorial presented
by a Noble Lnrd from the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland.
He agreed with the Noble Lord that the House was bound to
look to the weight of argument contained in the objections of
the memorial. He did not think that the House was bound to
yield to them. Was the faith of the Roman Catholic student
in danger when he should be. called upon to attend a lecture on
anatomy ? Some more stringent objection was necessary. It
seemed perfectly reasonable to him that the State should pos-
sess the power of appointing the president and vice-president of
these colleges, and should also have the power of appointing
the professors. Nor did he believe that there would be the
smallest danger that thr Crown would abstain from ap-
pointing persons to hold the office of professors who,
whatever creed they might belong to, if competent
to fulfil their duties, would be passed over on account
of their religious persuasion. He should regret to see the ap-
pointment of professors other than those whom the Crown
should provide. He thought, also, that the Crown should
possess the power of discharging them from their situations.
He did not think it would be wise to establish any religious
distinctions within the walls, or to insist on the
establishment of zny theological institutions. He considered,
however, that it was the bounden duty of the State to afford
every possible facility for the religious education of youth.
The system of education which would be promoted in these
colleges would be the Tutorian system. He had heard it urged
against this system of education, that the young men would be
taken from under the eye of their parents, and scattered over
the town where the college was situated, and taken from the
care of their tutors. It was not wise policy, however, to bring
up young men in monastic seclusion for several years, and then
to turn them loose at once, exposed to all the temptations of the
world. Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast,
and Dublin were all populous towns. He did not think that
there was such an absolute security for that purity of
morals, which showed either Oxf .rd or Cambridge
a model for imitation. The proposed colleges were to
be placed in great towns, and there existed many reasons for so
doing, and whether the young men were confined, as at Oxford
and Cambridge, or were let loose, as at other colleges, rely
upon it no greater controul would be obtained over the morals
of the young men. Those institutions were intended merely for
the middle classes of the state—a very large portion of those
who would send their sons to these institutions were residents
within the town. The advantage of an academical education,
with the blessing of parental superintendence, would be simul-
taneously obtained. None of the professors within the colleges
were to reside within the walls. He would inquire, then, what
would be more natural than that the professors living 'in the
town should open houses, where the pupils from the country
might be sent to reside. The professors would afford them all
the advantages of domestic supervision. The religious educa-
tion of the young men would be amply provided for by the ap-
pointment of persons duly qualified to instruct them in their dif-
ferent religious principles. When the different feelings of the
community, with respect to the Protestant and Roman Catholic
religion, was roused, within a short time the means for the en-
dowment of religious teachers would be amply provided, without
in the slightest degree interfering with the duties of the
students. Every facility, consistent with sound policy, had
been provided for the establishment of religious education.
The parties who endowed the religious establishments might
make their own provisions, to a certain extent, and the students
although possessing diversified religious opinions would have
the same opportunities as others of earning the rewards and
competing for the honours as the other students.—( Hear,
hear.) Ho had stated the grounds on which it was
objectionable to have religious institutions in colleges.
Every facility had been afforded for the religious education of
the youth. In a country in which it was impossible to educate
according to the principles of many religious creeds, divided
into a number of religious denominations, he entreated the
House to take the only course by which they could ensure the
advantages of secular education. He had that faith' in the
feelings of both Protestants and Catholics, that he was sure
they, from their private sources, would not fail
to provide for the instruction of their youth in
tnose different religions for which it was impossible the
State could provide. He was satisfied that if the Bill were re-
jected, their refusal would operate with the most disastrous
consequences. The advantages which would be provided for
generations yet unborn, by institutions liberally endowed from
the funds of the nation at large, were incalculable. The inesti-
mable advantage of an education at once literary, scientific,
moral, and religious he might also add, would by the proposed
measure be secured to all Ireland.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY was of opinion that the
measure before the House had been properly descrilscd, when,
it had been termed " a gigantic scheme of Godless education.'
They had gained a victory once over fanaticism and blind pre-
judice, yet by some strange fatality they were now about to
abandon the principle for which they so long contended. The
people of Ireland asked why were they Christians to be edu-
cated like heathens, without the knowledge of God, and the
Government answered them, because we are the vassals of the
Protestants of En_ land, who declare that your religion is super-
stitious, and your worship idolatrous. Was this a safe answer
to give to the people of Ireland, and was this the way to treat
people whom they were so anxious to conciliate? Surely the
Government would not argue thus. But yet the Government,
the strong Government, which, in spite of prejudice and
fanaticism had carried the Maynooth Bill, now yielded to
this unworthy opposition, and forced this Godless educa-
tional system on the people of Ireland. It was a
mere mockery to talk of the Irish being able to
provide religious instruction for the pupils in those colleges.
The poor Irish had already so many calls upon them, that they
were not at all able to meet any new ones; they had to main-
tain their priests, and to build suitable edifices for the celebra-
tion of their religious worship, and, considering their poverty,
and all the claims upon them, it was wonderful how they did so
much. In short, it was impossible they could supply the large
resources necessary to carry out the scheme. Before they were
in a condition to furnish those funds, generation after genera-
tion would have passed away, and they would have experienced
all the evils of this most miserable and defective system of edu-
cation. The Government had thought proper to provide a re.
ligions education for early youth, was it less necessary for early
manhood, when the passions were getting strong and required
the restraint of religion—when the reason was beginning to
develop itself, and was most inquisitive and frequently most
sceptical in faith, and if not instructed would readily yield to scep-
ticism ? It had been said that this measure was devised to pro-
testantise Ireland—he disbelieved the allegation, and thought
the Government was actuated by more unworthy motives. The
twhhoilci
rperl
gviaoinl dwahmi
cohn gt
htehye
designatedp pl e of
igditaTadt
oagainst tvhi
oCuas-.
Noble Earl then alluded to the strong and unjust prejudices
c
Easn
And how could this be otherwise, when their ministers, their
spiritual teachers, their guardians. preached such canting non-
sense as was spoken by the Rev. Mr. Alford, the incumbent of
a report
of ? The Noble Earl then read passages from
of the sermon of this person at the Church of St.
Alatthew the Evangelist before a large, congregation, just
previous to the third reading of the Maynooth Bill. The
preacher described the Catholic religion as idolatrous, as vicious
in morals, and politically wicked ; he said, murder was sanc-
tioned by its tenets ; that perjury was countenanced, and that
idolatry was enjoined • and, in order to prove the truth of what
he said, he quoted the creed of Pope
Pius the Fourth. But
what did lie do? He interpolated the text in the moat gross
and shameful manner, and added many words, upon which his
argument depended, and without which his argument would
have no foundation. He would not trouble the House with
these things, but the Roman Catholics bad been so often
accused of crimes and misdemeanors, arising from their creed,
that he thought it right to rebut them. The Noble Earl then
read again from the sermon of Mr. Alford, which the cot e
tion, in admiration of its ability, begged might be congrega-
tion,
and published. He there quoted the creed of Pope Piusshow-
ing clearly that the word worship had been interpolated. The

Waterloo was attended with circumstances of a peculiar nature.
Its issue was peace, after a war that had been waged for
upwards of a quarter of a century, and the natural expecta-
tion was that war would henceforward be at an end.
The distinction of the Order of the Bath was originally con-
ferred on the Peninsular army, but lately it had been extended
to other armies and especially to the last Indian armies. This
was the history of the grant of this medal—it was for the good
conduct of the troops, and granted in order to induce activity
and good soldiership in the army. Its benefits had been found
in the Indian campaigns and also in the late war in China.
The British army had been engaged in fortified rivers and
against fortified forts in operation against a numerous and in-
telligent people. They suffered greatly, not only from the
dangers of actual warfare, but also from the fatigues of march-
ing and the scorching heat of the climate. The troops were suc-
cessful—successful at all points, and the result had been the en-
tering into a negotiation which would lay the foundation of a
lasting peace with that great and important country. The be-
nefits that might be expected to arise from the treaty between
this country and China were incalculable. He spoke to their
Lordships of the army in the Peninsula, not as an unfavoured,
but a distinguished and well-rewarded army. But while they
remembered the deeds performed in the Peninsula they must
remember that other expeditions were equally renowned ; let
them but call to mind Egypt and Calabria, and say,
were not the officers engaged in those glorious campaigns
equally deserving of rewards f And they must not forget the
fleet, while entertaining the question of the merits of the army :
the fleet of Great Britain had maintained its glory fully as emi-
nently as the army, and yet a general medal was never dissemi-
nated among the fleet. Yet, there had been great naval
vic-
tories—there were the actions of the First of June, of Cape St.

Vincent, and the Nile, but did ever any one hear of medals
being granted for those illustrious affairs? While, therefore,
such obstacles presented themselves to the prayer of the present
petition, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the House and
the entire country must feel that the admirable speech of the
Noble Duke who had preceded him, was an unanswerable reply
to the petition laid on the table by the Noble Lord opposite ;
anything, therefore, he could add would be only superfluous.
Nevertheless, he was desirous of expressing,his opinion of the
practice of officers asking for decorations by peti-
tion—in one word, he would say that he considered it
unworthy the character of British officers.—(Hear, hear.)
Officers ought to trust to the Croon for their rewards, the
House ought never to interfere. He looked upon the decora-
tions worn by officers with far greater respect when they were
conferred by the Sovereign, on the recommendation of the
Commander-in-Chief. British officers did themselves little
honour by supplicating for honours to which they considered
they were entitled. Would any of the officers engaged in
the victories in the Peninsula have petitioned for such a boon
as that now sought? He never regretted anything so much
as when he heard that these officers were going to petition that
House to award them medals for their services—the more so
when the petition came from the hands of the Noble Duke. He
maintained that it would be unconstitational to grant the
prayer of the petition ; and if it were granted, the officers,
when they grew old, and sat by their fire-sides, could not but
look upon them as not spontaneously granted by their country,
but at their supplication.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM held that the petition was
most respectfully worded. All these individuals, who had shed
their blood in the service of their country, asked for, was some
memorial that they bad done their country service in the six-
teen en.avments in question. He demanded nothing more
than that the decoration which they sought might be awarded
them ; they sought no other reward. Their Lordships must
surely think that many of these officers felt cause for not re-
maining in the station in which they now were. He was
sure aat there was not one of those who signed the petition
who would not wish that every officer who fought in Egypt
should have a decoration. He felt that he had a right to ex-
press his opinion with respect to the petition, and would
conclude by moving that it should lie on the table.
DERRY AND COLRAINE RAILWAY.
The Earl of WICKLOW presented six petitions in favour
of the Derry and Coleraine Railway Bill.
IRISH COLLEGES BILL.
Lord CREMORNE presented a petition, signed by 9,000 of
the Roman Catholic inhabitants of (Jerk, against the Irish Col-
leges Bill. He would at the same time take the opportunity of
stating to their Lordships that his opinion was entirely in
favour of that measure.

SUN, LONDON-, TUILIS*DAY MORNING, JETI,V
_1845.

Noble Lord also read from the CatechiSm of the Council of
Trent, shoeing that, so far from Roman Catholics bring enjoined
to warship Oiok, they were enjoined riottle reltreirair 'mature
the honour which only belonged to God';- and -fasters
were commanded by the Council to instruct their flicks to this
effect. Images were only countenanced because they created a
more lively impression on the mind, and that the sufferings of
Christ, and the exemplary conduct of the saints might t e
brought more vividly before the understanding By this
Council it was expressly commanded that Faints were only to
be invoked so that they might intercede wilt the Almighty by
their prayers, and sorely no Christian could feel dissatisfied at
the practice of bringing the exemplary lives of the saints and
fathers of the Cathoic Church constantly under the notice of
the faithful ?
Lard KENYON interfered, and said it was irregular, and
contrary to the rules of their Lordships' House to read a sermon
there which had been delivered elsewhere.
The LORD CHANCELLOR desired the Noble. Earl to
proceed.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY proceeded. There was not
one point of evidence to bear out the assertion of the Noble
Duke. The Noble Marquis was proceeding to address their
Lordships with respect to the question of superstition and ido-
latry, when ,
Lord BROUGHAM interrupted him by saying, Really I
begin to agree with the Noble Lord on the cross benches.
There must be some limit to our debates. The Noble Earl is
going into questions which have no reference to the debate
before us.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY said when he heard the
Noble Lord opposite speak as he did with respect to the mea-
sure, he could not avoid occupying their time at the length he
had done. But would the Noble Lord (Lord Brougham) promise
never to introduce anything that was irrelevant.--( Laughter. )
Lord BROUGHAM would promise not to go into that
which had no relation to the subject before their Lordships,
namely, a defence of the Roman Catholics, in a debate
having reference simply to education. -
The LORD CHANCELLOR slid, the Noble Lord had
better proceed.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY then resumed, and promised
that he should not detain their Lordships at much greater
length. He held that he was simply giving utterance to the
opinions which prevailed in Ireland. He hoped that they would
make a careful and searching inquiry, and not allow them-
selves to be carried away by popular declamation into measures
which could not fail to lead to the injury of the country to
which the measure before them referred. He called upon the
Government not to act as a vacillating Government, but as
anxious to serve and_promote the interest of the country in
every way in their power. As a proof of their sincerity, lie
wished they would withdraw the Bill intended to be applied to
an unfortunate country, and bring forward in its place a mea-
sure which would meet with the wants, and which would not
outrage the feelings of the majority of the people of Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM had no intention of treating the Noble
Earl with disrespect, but he conceived that he had tallen into
error with respect to the views he had taken. There was no-
thing so vexatious, and he often heard arguments carried out
to a great length, as a speech of the greatest ability where the
talents of the excellent speaker only win him on his Way away
from the question. It was the greatest of afflictions
to have an able speaker turning his back upon the question,
and dragging on his arguments far away from the question
wider consideration. It was under that impression that be •
n(
eLxoirodn Brougham)could
there
b e interruptedbetw ee
nth etheN No eat
rtrtrd
m.
erWi
tsh aot fc otnh-,
Catholic religion and the question before them ? It looked as
if there were to be professors against the Roman Catholic
religion to discountenance Popery and to denounce the religion.
The. Noble Earl (the Earl of Shrewsbury) took occasion to
pass very high eulogiums upon the Roman Catholic religion,
forgetting that either this or the other House of Parliament
were the very last places where one should enter into a
hei rs
dis-
fcourssiownhicuhpona
manthe
Maker. A discussion between Catholicism and mheardits onolfy a
to any
answerr religion
fora to matter
Pro-
testantism was very far beside the question before
them. They were, however, to have a discussion on this mea-
sure, to night, because there was a protest on the minutes,
which the Noble Earl thought it his duty to answer, and to try
to prove that this measure was quite distinct from the May-
nooth question, which many supported'who thought fit to oppose
this measure. The Noble Earl said that he spoke against the
Roman Catholic religioe ; he (Lord Brougham) had supported
the Maynooth question—but was be at the same time to set
aside any portion of his own religious belief? He rejected the
Roman Catholic religion on account of its immoral tendency,
he would not say its immoral results. Ile held this to be one
of the greatest measures in its apparently beneficial cense-
qiences, that ever had been brought before the Parliament of
the United Kingdom. To be told that the Roman
Catholic clergy were against it was absurd. If
all the Roman Catholic clergy and laity, and all the
Protestant clergy and laity were gainst it, he would
not the less support the views which were taken by those
who introduce I this measure. He did not support this mea-
sure a bit the more, because the Roman Catholic clergy had
thought fit unfortunately to withdraw their support from it.
He was not one of those who thought that they were never to
promulgate education, without connecting religion with it.
He not only supported this doctrine in Ireland, but also in
England.—( Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the children
ought to be taught their ciphering or what was necessary at the
school, but that the clergymen, belonging to the religion to
which the parents adhered, ought to teach religion to the
children. He was not one of those who said that
this was a triumph of his principles, because the
Government had decided in favour of the principles
adopted in the University College and against the doctrine
upheld in King's College. Ne, he thought that that did not
apply to Ireland where circumstances were quite different.
Was it excluding religion to say that there was a school where
natural philosophy and mathematics were to he taught to the
children from ten o'clock till four, and that then these children,
were to go home to their parents, who would have an oppor-
tunity of teaching, either themselves or through their
clergymen, the:religion which they professed, to their children.
They who cared for no religion would provide for all creeds in-
discriminately, they would not be anxious far the observance or
distinction of any religion, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Pres-
byterian, Mahometan, Hindoo, Baptist, Anabaptist, and all
and every persuasion, would be allowed to be followed indiscri-
minately and evasively. Secular knowledge could be taught
without religion. Could any man doubt it? What did
custom, what did precedent prove ? When a French master, a
dancing mistress, a fencing master, or other such teachers
of useful or ornamental accomplishments were engaged, did the
parents require a man capable also of imparting religious know-
ledge ? Surely if dancing and fencing could be harmlessly taught
apart from religion, Greek and Latin could es satisfactorily be im-
parted. Another objection to the Bill was that propounded by the
Noble Lord opposite in presenting some pstitions that evening,
oequiring and urging that no religion should be adopted that
was not founded on the system pursued at Oxford and Cam-
bridge. The promoters of such an argument evinced the
most profound ignorance, for at Oxford and at Cambridge the
most opposite systems were pursued. Thus in Oxford he ad-
mitted the principle of exclusive high Protestant teaching was
adopted, and the Government measure was in direct contra-
distinction to it ; hut in Cambridge the system was the very
Inbga lcerr i ,p
reverse—men of all creeds could pass any examination except
that of graduating,
ad
nand stoppingta take
onlyany athonthouart honours, even evaentotltat
of fellowship,
tion to the artittlesof our Church was required.
But He must go a step farther and say, that the prospect of
danger was exaggerated, and, indeed, unfounded ; and the
longer he lived the more he regretted that at the time of car-
rying the Union the Emancipation was not conceded also. '1 he
endoment of the College of Maynooth was not included in the
whena ther
Emancipation of 1829, and hence he was convinced had arisen
all the grievances in Ireland. It had been said the Roman
Catholic prelates and priests were obnoxious to the measure,
and would appose it with all their vigour as well as use all their
endeavours to thwart it. To such a statement he replied
Credat Judceus:Apella 1" " Credat lay, quill credal 1"
--(Loud laughter. ) In 1825 Lord Francis Egerton proposed
that an annual grant should be conceded of 250,000/. to pay
the Catholic clergy. Between 1,200/. and 1,500 e for the
archbishops, 400/. to 800,. to bishops, 5001. to deacons, and
150/. to the parish priests. Here was a great scheme, endow-
ing the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. And yet it
was now urged that the present measure was a novelty, and
that th it Nubie Lord to whom he had referred had departed
from his original principles. When that accusation was urged
he took occasion to inquire into the circumstances, and he
found, on reference to the votes, the facts he had just Stated,
Ile would quote the tes'imony of tse dead as well as the living
on this subject. He might, perhaps, be permitted to pause for
an instant, and to cast an eye over the memory of that illustri-
ous man who had just departed from among them ; and it had
never fallen to his lot to know of any man of a more unsullied
honour and spotless integrity conjoined with such great excel-
lence, as his illustrious friend who had now paid the debt to
nature. Of all men he held the opinion most strongly and
most consistently to give liberty to trppressed Ireland by eman-
cipating the Catholics—to give equal rights to all her subjects,
so that there should not be one law for the rich and another for
the poor. To take the mischief from the hands of the mischief-
maker—to endow the Catholic religion liberally, but prudently,
was one of the darling
objects of the life of the estimable man
who was now departed—
" Ut malignum ce'sare facrim otiosus reddam.";
Nde d
tchmoeno
ari ed
seconder
re
es
dp e
thatrcetea dd iwtnhaha
enno
fE theat
hr Grey.
enob Bill,l noble
No man had ever lived more respected for his opinions and con-
asnadidLeitarnweads
Lords i st, eonrwcdyh
E, andLm vodei
o
without any religious distinctions as to sects,' he would refer
him to one of the last clauses of the act. According to his
opinion, he had also in reading the petition mentioned the
name of Cambridge, and it was not to be found in it.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
The Earl of CA RNARVt)N felt it his painful duty to
differ to-night from those Noble Lords with whom he was in
the habit of voting. He felt sure that they had the welfare of
the country at heart. He agreed with what fell from his
Noble and Learned Friend, that it was impossible to overrate
the importance of the measure before the House. He could
not satisfy his mind, that whatever might be the intentions of
her Majesty's Governmeut, that the proposed measure would
not be a severe blow struck at religion. He would contend
that, on public grounds they were bound to bring up the
scholars in such a way as would render them
to that good men and
good citizens. It seemed him, as the state gave the
best secular education that it could, so it should give to the
youthsthe best religious education of which they might
be sus-
ceptible. In every regulation the state was bound to advance
the public good, and the popular interests could not be more
effectually served than by training the youth up in religious
feelings. The institutions ought to he founded on such a plan.
His Noble Friend had presented a petition from certain res-
pectable men at Oxford, who opposed the measure on reli-
gious grounds. They felt that their duty to God and their
country compelled:them to come forward on that occasion.
He complained that no greater religious character had been
given
to the Bill. The Noble Lord had alluded to tire sub-
ject of separate col gle es. He
quite agreed with him,
that the harmony and good feeling likely to result from such
a union were very desirable. But he could not consider that
a mixed assemb'y of youths. holding different religious
opinions, was likely to conduce much to harmony.
Separate colleges did not involve unjust ascendancy.
There was no likelihood of the Protestant or Catholic clergy-
men co-operating to carry it out. The Catholic hierarchy
denounced it, Mr. O'Connell denounced it, and there could be
but little doubt that it would be ultimately a failure. The
people of Ireland accepted tire Maynooth grant as a favour bet
regarded this measure as a curse. When they saw such names
as that of Bishop Murray enlisted in hostility against the Bill,
could they doubt but that the measure was hurtful to the re-
Itgious feelings of the people anti was considered as most in-
judicious? The professor of history would naturally give a
colouring to facts according to his religion, and that colouring
would be strongest where people'sprejur ; I;
eces were must sensit ivy.
He did not much see the necessity of a Catholic or Protestant
professor for geology or anatomy, but he would certainly
wish to see a good Chr'stian fill the chair. He objected to
the great patronage which the Bill conferred—and did trot think
the power of nomination in the Crown afforded any guarantee
• against the propagation of improper doctrines, 'lbis
had been found to be the ease in foreign
universities. The great objection he had to the
• Bill was that there would no the any religious instruction at all,
or any religious endowneeee, at least for several years, which
would be a • reproach tee this country. Religious instruction
should not he left " to the hazard of the die." , The State
should, as respects these pupils, stand in loco parentis. This
Bill gave the bishops no gee e nor any other power whatever
over professors, however wick ed or infidel their principles. He
was not insensible to the .s fficulties with which the question
wa , surrounded, and gas to cr edit to the Government for their
courage in bringing it for "wed ; but he could not help thinking
that the provision ft
441,„: eeligioue instruction was wholly

inadequate, and that some means thigh!' be devised
which would remove this cardinal objection ftdrii the
-11111.re;Liqvicalti2vi .f.rcsenaLbled the giant in the airy
tales; who- Ifrffed tOrdilts. F,docation was perniCimis
if not uroiv,rly m-naged, but cot:ld be rendered most serviceable
and c'flleierit by hi•ine-, well directed.—( Hear, hear. ) The
Noble Earl then alluded to the question of education in France,
and 9141 he was haniy to see that religion waa reviving in that
cittntry. On last Easter Monday there were 1,000 commu-
nicants in the church of Notre Dame ; and the provincial
churches of France, which were some years ago deserted, were
crowded. Ile could only repeat that he did not suspect that
the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial
Department had any other object in view in bringing forward
the measure than to benefit the country. He should therefore
move, and he did so with great pain, that the Bill be read that
day six months.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered that the mea-
sere before the House was but an instalment of the measures
which he hoped the Government intended to bestow upon Ire-
land. The great object of the Bill was to Secifte the education
of the people of Ireland ; the second was the necessity of pro-
portioning that education to the different classes of which so-
ciety was composed; the third—and on which this question
mainly hinged—of laying down this system in a mode that
should make it acceptable to all classes, preventing the boon
which they tendered from being loaded by regulations and laws
which might turn conscientious men from receiving those
benefits which it was intended to confer. Some people were of
opinion that the education of the great mass of the people was
neither proper nor covenient; but the contrary opinion now
prevailed. The second point—that of providing education for
the middle classes. Whilst they had provided the means of
education for the poorer classes they had neglected the education
of the middle classes by leaving its support to the class which it
was intended to benefit. There was now a demand not only
among the laity but among the clergy of Ireland, for some-
thing, no the part of the Government, which would afford
the means of instruction in the practical sciences, by
which men might earn their own livelihood ; and be
permanently useful to society. This, then, was the object of
the present measure, but let him tell the Noble Lord, that
this desirable object would not be effected if that education
was made in the slightest degree. If there were pro-
fesitr-s appointed to teach one religion, and in which one reli-
gion was taught, the worst results could not fail to ensue.
With respect to the petition from some of the members of the
University of Oxford, clauses had been inserted, making pro.
vision for the religious instruction of the pupils, without making
it exclusive. lie must admit that there was one part of the
Bill upon which he looked with apprehension—he meant the
appoirement of the %A hole of the professors by her Majesty's
Government. He did not question the motives of the Govern-
ment ; lie had no doubt—nay, lie was sure it was their intention,
it was to their interest to appoint men well qualified to perform
• their duties ; but there was a disposition in Ireland, which
I could not be well rooted out, to attribute every appointment,

and especially appointments of this kind, to Government pa-
tronag•,. Ile hoped that a provision would be introduced into
the Bill, now or at an early period, for concentrating all these
colleges into the form of one national university, which, he
was convinced, would effect the greatest good. Ti inity
Dublin,' might be made the focus, but as
there was an objection to that course, a college might
be erected in the vicinity of Dublin, where the
heads of the other colleges might meet at one common
centre for the management of her affairs, and for conferring
degrees on those who deserved them. It should be a college in
itself, but th, rep'e•entation of the three colleges. The
carrying out of this suggestion could not fail to have a concilia-
tory effect upon Ireland.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Before
he concluded, he wished to express that a system of secular
education would also be most desirable to that country.
It should he in accordance with the feeling of the country to
afford education to every class of her Majesty's subjects. If
this Bill was carried out with care it would give to the people
an Silence much wanted in that country. He cordially
F upprted this Bill, at the same time wishing that they should
give it the utmost are in its ultimate operation. He thanked
their Lordships for the attention which they had afforded him.
Lord CLIFF() ill) wished to offer his unfeigned gratitude to
the Noble Lord who had introduced this measure. He had no
hesitation in giving his support to the second reading of this
Bill. He thought it absolutely necessary, however, that they
should disabuse the people of Ireland of the notion that the
people of this country were their enemies. He wished that
his Noble Friend opposite would consider before he should
press his amendment that this Bill should be read this day
six months.

Lord BEAUMONT said that he did not intend to enter
into the details of the questton, because the remarks which he
wouht have made were more eloquently laid before them by
the Noble Marquis near him. He could not, however, help
distinctly stating his unqualified approval of the measure. His
approval of it was not f:mnded on the narrow grounds taken by
the Noble Lord who introduced it, that it was particularly
suited to Ireland. He approved of it for the great principle
which it contained, applicable equally to England and Ireland,
namely, the abandonment of religious tests, and the removal,
by mixed education, of those animosities which arose out of
sectarian differences. That was the chief ground of his
approval. His Noble Friend Lehind him had treated
this question as a Roman Catholic question, but he
( Lord Beaumont) was of opinion that it should as much
he considered a Protestant question. He thought that this
Bill most properly took away from the priests that power of in-
terference with secular matters which they at present most im-

. .
properly po,sessed. He would not detain them. and he would
only state that it was the only measure that could be applied to
Ireland in its present state ; and, would to Heaven that it had
been carried out in England.
The Bisl.op of NORWICH said that from what he had
heard all his scruples were gone, and he would not hesitate in
giving this measure his most unqualified support. He thought
that this measure would tend to create those bonds of amity
which should exist between the people of this country and Ire-
land ; and he thought it would introduce into that country
the spirit of Christianity, which should prevail there. •
Lord LYTTELTON said that he wished to ask a question of
the Noble Lord (Stanley). There was a clause in the Bill
which provided that such students as were desirous of receiving
religious instruction could attain it. One would think that
they teed not a'tcnd any religious instruction if they did not
think proper. In another clause it provided that the religion
should be approved of by the parents or guardians of the
pupils. He wished to know if the pupil should receive the
san,tion of his parent or guardian, and whether the governing
body then could compel the pupil ?
Lord STANLEY said that facilities should be afforded for
giving religious instruction. Compulsion did not rest with the

governing body.
The original motion for the second reading was then put and
carh'd without a division, and their Lordships adjourned at
we've o'clock.

good.

-26

TIOUSE OF COMMONS, .July 21.
The Howe met at Twelve o'Clock.
HIGHWAYS BILL.
The report was agreed to.
RAILWAYS SELLING OR LEA_ING BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee, and was ordered to be
read a third time on Tuesday.
GRAND JURY PRESENTMENT (DUBLIN) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and passed.
THIRD READINGS.
The Fisheries (Ireland) Bill, and the Drainage of Lands
Bill, were read a third time and passed ; as was also the Mas-
ters and Workmen's Bill.
SCOTCH POOR-LAW BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of the Bill,
Mr. 11 AS'fIE said that the Bill, considering the importance
of the measure, had been passed through the House with hide-
cent haste, considering the importance of the alterations intro-
duced into it, and he should, therefore, move that the Bill be
read that (!ay week.
The LORD ADVOCATE objected to any delay, on the
ground that it had been largely discussed.
Mr. W,A !:LEY felt that he bad reason to complain that the
index to ti.,• vidence that had been promised had not been fur-
nished. It was necessary, for the mass of evidence was such that.
it was impo,sible to wade through it, and the alterations were of
so much importance that they ought not to be introduced with-
out kno-,ving the evidence on which they were based. He had
himself inquired that morning at the poorhouse of St. Pancras,
and he found that an a'slebodied Scotchman if he applied for
relief might come into the house, but whether he had a wife
or whether be had not he was to be sent to Scotland, and
there cast on its shores helpless and destitute, and where the
poor law officers had no power to relieve him. He thought
therefore th,.t it ought to be reconsidered.
Mr. DUNDAS thought that the alterations were of such
importance that he wished the Lord Advocate to postpone the
Bill.
Air. LOCKHART supported the Bill, as he thought it
would be of advantage to Scotland.
After a few words from Mr. 11. YORKE, who wished the
postponement, and from
Mr. HENLEY, who was anxious that there should not only
be an unifc rm law of settlement, but also an uniform poor-law
throughout the kingdom,
The House divideci, when there appeared—
For the motion •
Against it
Majority
Th Bill was then read a third time and passed.
EXCISE DUTIES ON SPIRITS (CHANNEL
ISLANDS) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed. -
COAL PORT (LONDON) DUTIES BILL.
_ _ _

On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
The Earl of LINCOLN said that as some misapprehension
had arisen respecting the third reading of this Bill, on the part
of the lion. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) who was not
present, he should postpone the third reading till twelve
o'clock to-morrow, when it would certainly come on.
GAMES AND WAGERS BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that the object of this Bill
was two-fold. Firstly, to regulate the entry of those houses
avowedly kept open for gaming ; and, secondly, to amend the
laws respecting wagers generally. As the law now stood, no
house could be entered except on an information signed by two
householders. It was proposed to transfer the power of
laying the information from these parties to the inspectors
of police, who, on evidence received, were to lay informa-
tion before a magistrate, and on such information
the magistrate was empowered to grant a warrant, on
which the police might act. With respect to the second por-
tion, its object was to define what were and what were not to
be wagers recoverable by law. With so useful a purpose, he had
no hesitation in proposing the second reading of this Bill.
111 r. HAWES said that the Bill did not confine itself to the
recommemtation of the Commissioners, for it interfered with
licensed victuallers in a manner that was not contemplated.
There was an attempt in the Bill to define an unlawful game,
but that definition was so extensive as to include any innocent
game added to this they were going to do that by the Bill
that would operate as a further heavy tax upon the licensed
victuallers if they had a billiard table—a body, he thought,
that was sufficiently taxed already. The Bill, in fact, went
beyond the description of it given by the Right Hon. Baronet,
and beyond what was contemplated by the Gaining Committee.
Unless the Right Hon. Baronet would insert a clause exempt-
ing the licensed victuallers from the operation of the Bill, he
thonl,l vote against its second reading.
Mr. HENLEY would oppose the second reading, unless some
alterations were made with respect to the powers of the in-

spcc•turs 0: police.
Mr. SPOONER l.ad strong objections to several clauses of
the Bill, but be trusted the lion. :Member tor Lambeth would
not object to the second reading of the Bill, as its principle was

Sir JAMES GRAHAM denied that it was the ebjecs
of the Government, in bringing in this Bill, to meet
the case of certain individuals ; the measure had
been brought forward for the purpose of putting an
end to gambling in the metropolis, that had been productive of
the worst of consequences.—( Hear, hear.) He denied
also that - .the Bill was intended to operate only
against the lower classes, and that it passed by the
higher. The second clause was levied against play, not
only by the lower, but the higher classes. That
clause was most stringent against hazard, a game,
he believed, rot much indulged in by the lower classes.
A: to the licensed victuallers, the Bill would not operate
bar,hiy against them. In conclusion, he trusted that the second
reading of a Bill to prevent gaming would never be opposed in
a British House of Commons.
Mr. WARBURTON thought the Bill acted unfairly with
respect to informers, in preventing them horn recovering any
but taxed costs.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said that the Committee that sat upon
the question of qui tarn actions were clearly of opinion that
' l the statute of Anne was never intended to apply to betting Qn