The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-02 00:00:00

WOOL.

Earl HAREWOOD presented a petition which on a
former evening he had brought into the House, but at
that time was obliged to wishdraw it, owing to aome in-
formality, from a number of Merchants engaged in the
Wool Trade, residing in London, praying that no increased
duty might take place in the importation of Foreign Wool,
and that the Committee might he directed by the House
to enquire into this subject.—The petition was read at
le❑gth.

Lord ➢IALMESBURY was not surprised that the peti-
tioners should pray for no increased duty, but that they
should go on so far as to entreat their Lordships not
to grant the Committee sought by the thousands of
petitions before the House upon this subject, stating
cases of extreme distress, surprised him in the highest de-
gree. Was this a part to be acted by candid men? Was
this a part that would be acted by men confident in their
own strength ? The Noble Earl was not much experienced
in the pi oceedings of the House; but this was the first time
he bad ever beard the prayer of the petition couched
in such terms, as connected with the prayers of hundreds
of other petitions, claiming relief from distress, which the
petitioners had suffered for three years past. He was
totally at a loss to state what he was to think of such
petitioners.
Earl HAREWOOD disclaimed, on the part of the peti-
tioners, any desire of not going into an inquiry upon the
ground of excluding the persons from being heard who had
complained ; but Noble Lords were by no means aware of
the excesssive mischief done by going into the minutike of
certain subjects in Committees. Those minutiae were
carried out of this country, and circulated throughout
others, and often proved most mischievous. The meaning
of the petitioners was, that after a lapse of years, the
woollen manufacture of this country having begun gradually
to revive under the present duty of a penny, that that state
might be allowed to go on, and that no step might take
place which might hereafter prove injurious. The
experiment had already been tried, and had failed, and
the petitioners deprecated any further attempt now
to repeat the experiment, by which all the particulars
might be spread over different countries, and dismay dif-
fused throughout the minds of every woollen merchant in
the country.

Lord 31ALMESBURY hailed with great satisfaction the
returning prosperity of the woollen trade, but when the
Noble Lord (Earl Harewood) talked of dismay, he alluded
merely to the minds of men under apprehension ; and this
fit conceived could not warrant the House withholding
from the other petitioners the Committee which they prayed
to have appointed, and whose object was to lay before
Parliament and the public a fair statement.

The Duke of WELLINGTON would consent to the
appointment of a Committee upon the grounds stated by
the Noble Lord who had last spoken : that was, with the
view of having a fair inquiry into the depression of the
wool trade, and by no means with an intention to follow
up that by raising the duty on the article. His opinion was
that the Noble Lord would be satisfied with the inquiry,
and would see that the depression was not to be removed by
an additional duty.
The Marquis of SALISBURY said, that the articles of
British manufacture from foreign wool had decreased since
the duty on foreign wool was taken off. It was evident,
therefore, that the late alteration in the law had
been injurious not only to the agriculturist, but like-
wise to the trade of the eountry.—The wool-growers
merely asked fir enquiry, and he was satisfied that when
they went before the Committee they would mast satis-
factorily prove that the system adopted for the last
two years would, if persevered iu, involve the manufactu-
rers and farmers in common ruin.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE thought it must be useless for
his Noble Friends to press for a Committee if they could
not prevail on the Government to consent to the imposition
of a duty.
Committee : shhoichldu a
stoorw, t"
,
The Duke of RICHMOND thought there were a great
many ways in which the wool-growers might be benefitted
by an inquiry. To instance one case,—suppose that there
woolledwer sheepegreatt wereractm ofin
bred. in
nf
Englandt
that the short wool growers would never get a remunerat-
ing price, all the wool growers would get rid of the short-
woolled sheep. If he remembered rightly, the Noble Lord
had proved but a bad prophet in what he had stated in
1824. He then said, that a greater blow was never aimed
ad
upon which

wou. come unprejudiced to Je discussion on Monday
next; but if they thought that a duty on wool, particu-
larly short wool, would now be beneficial, they would find
themselves perfectly mistaken.
Earl HAREWOOD stated that the exports of
woollen cloth for four years, from 1816 to 1819,
amounted to 542,992 pieces. The duty upon the impor-
tation of foreign wool during that period was Id. per
pound, and South-down wool sold at 29d. per pound.
From 1819 to 1821, another period of four years, during
wihch the duty upon importation was 6d. per lb., which
is called a protecting duty, 389,310 pieces had been ex-
ported, while South-down wool only fetched ibd. per lb. He
stated those strong facts, and if they were not correct, he
was not responsible for the error.
Lord REDESDALE thought the present question
affected the corn question ; for if farmers could not culti-
vate the wool, they could not cultivate the lands.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from im-
porters of wool in London against their Lordships' going
into a committee of inquiry. Ile would say one word on
the subject of his prophecies on wool, and he must confess
that he felt a little vanity on their score, and he thought
he had been right. The Noble Duke (Richmond) would
allow him to say, that the completion of those circum-
stances which would either prove him a false or a true
prophet, had not yet taken place. The woollen manufac-
ture was a new one abroad, and it was not be established
in a moment. Machinery and capital well wanted, and
until a certain time had passed it could not be 'aid whe-
ther his prophecy was true or felse. He would remind
the Noble Duke of another prophecy which he had made.
All the short wool growers combined with the long wool
growers in petitioning for permission to expert wool, and
expressed the great advantages which they expected to re-
sult from such a measure. He, however, told the Mem-
bers of the House of Commons that he would pledge him-
self that the exportation of wool would not be of the least
advantage, nor increase the price of wool one halfpenny a
pound ; and he would ask the Noble Mike if he were wrong
in that prophecy ?
The Duke of RICHMOND made some observations icy
explanation, which were not heard below the bar.
The Marquis of SALISBURY, in answer to what had
been stated by the Noble Earl (Harwood), could state iron/
Parliamentary returns which he held in his hand, that the
duty on wool had been repealed, the exports of all the flue
kinds of woollen manufactures had diminished, and those
of the coarser kinds increased.

Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from owner..
and occupiers of lands frequenting Warwick market, against
the proposes! Corn Bill.

The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from
Dublin, praying their Lordships to take into consideration
the practice of exporting foreign wheat, in bond, to the
Isle of Man, and there reducing it to flour. He stated
that there was a Bill now in progress in the House of Com-
mons to put a stop to a practice which he was sure it war:
never intended should take place.
After some observations from Lords LIMERICK, REDE
DALE, and MALMESBUAT, the petition was ordered to lie
upon the table.

- Lord KING presented a petition front the Roman Ca-
tholics in Ireland against the Select Vestry Bill, in which
the petitioners complained of what might be termed a spo-
liation of their property. There were a great many state-
ments in this petition which had rendered him (Lord
King) unwilling to present it, until he should have had
eome personal sommunication with gentlemen from that
country, as be had no means himself of otherwise ascer-
taining their accuracy, of which, however, he was now (a:.
we understood his Lordship) perfectly satisfied. The
petition stated that there were about 700,000 Protestant
inhabitants in Ireland, and 1,300 Rectors ; that was about
one Rector to 538 Protestants. There were 22 Bishops
in Ireland, which was at the rate of one Bishop to 59
Rectors. Now in England there was one Bishop to 800
Rectors, and the proportion of English Rectors to pa-
rishioners was equally moderate. Now the petitioners
stated that if the Irish were rated according to the excel-
lent Church Establishment in England (their Lordships
would recollect that this petition was from Roman Catho-
lics), instead of 22 Bishops, they would only have two ; and
instead of 1,300 Rectors, they would have .TB5. The Bishops'
property consisted of 1,000,0001. a year, or nearly 1-Bth of
the landed property of Ireland. The Noble Lord proceeded
to read various passages from the petition, setting forth the
respective incomes of the principal dignitaries of the Irish
church; and stating, if an Irish Bishop were remunerated
at the same rate as a Chief Justice, or a Minister of State
(which they conceived would be amply sufficient), it would
be a saving to that country of 200,0001. a year. The peti-
tion also contained a calculation of the amount that might
be saved to the inhabitants, 7-llths of whom were Catho-
lics, by moderating the incomes paid to other branches of
the clergy; but from the low tone in which the Noble
Lord read the passages, we were unable to collect with any
degree of accuracy, either the details of these caloulations,
contained
attack
this
or of various alleged abuses as to the application of the
vestry money in different parts of Ireland.
The
ved than was
said
dth a more unfounded
in n
petition. He believed the whole a tissue of falsehoods ;
but to be enabled to refute them all by evidence, it would
On conceived
have been necessary for him to have had a brief some
months ago.
had never o fbee SS

Lord KING explained. •
His LORDSHIP presented a petition from the Catholics
of Stone, in Staffordshire, praying for a removal of civil
disabilities.

The Earl of DARNLEY presented a petition from
Lieutenant-General Browne, of Wexford, deprecating the
present system of grand jury presentment in Ireland. His
Lordship also presented a petition from another Irish gen-
tleman, Mr. W. Parke, praying for some measure for the
relief of the Irish peasantry.
POPULATION OF IRELAND.
The Earl of DARNLEY, in moving the order of the
day for taking this subject into consideration, said, that be
laboured under no ordinary difficulties on the present oc-
casion, one of which was the load of prejudices engendered
by the abuses of the Poor Laws in this country, which
were carried to such an excess that the very mention of the
.yPrs°e
be
able
system was likely to expose him to more warmth than the
occasion required. He deprecated as anxiously as any
man any extension of that reprobate system ; and be hoped
he should be able to appease the anger of his Noble Friend
(the Earl of Limerick) when he stated, in proof of that,
that it was far from his intention to recommend the
English system of Poar Laws, as applied here at present,
or even as founded on, the original intention of the statute
of Elizabeth. That statute had two objects. in view ; the
first t ofo
work.which
insufficient to meet that object, because it would requite
an assessment for beyond its amount, to give employment
to all the poor in that country able to work. But the
statute had another object also, which was to give relief
fiwndbele employmentweaith of forl Ireland
every
would
to the sick, the blind, the lame) the infirtn, and the
impotent, who were poor and unable to work. Ile
hoped he should he able to confirm his statement, that
cases were occurring daily in that country where even
life was sacrificed for want of florae provision for the poor.
It appeared to him that the humanity of the public in this
country was directed exclusively to another class of suf-
ferers. What volumes had there not been printed on the
state of slavery in the West Indies? All was anxiety Cu
meliorate the condition of the slaves in that part of the
world, without even considering the consequences of a pre-
mature attempt to do so, or the rights of those whose pro-
perty was vested there. But he wished to call attention
to the state of a population nearer home, and which ought
therefore to be dearer to our breasts. God forbid he should
undervalue the blessing of liberty, and the Irish peasant
certainly enjoyed that blessing ; but it was the liberty of
living in a state in which he was the worst fed and the
worst clothed of all the people on the face of the globe ;
he also enjoyed the liberty of procreating his species, and
the liberty of locomotion, and of this he availed himself to
a large extent. Now he (Lord Darnley) wished particu-
larly to draw Noble Lords' attention to this part of the
subject. A Noble Lord (Limerick) had told them that he
drew all his resources from Ireland; he (Lord Dartil;y)
was nearly in the same situation ; but this he would say,
that if they did not introduce a change of system in Ire-
land, it would be better that the suggestion of a certain
Gallant Admiral (Sir Joseph Yorke) should take effect at.
once ; and he was certain that he (Lord Darnley) would
be in no worse situation from such an event, unless their
Lordships would adopt some measures for the improve-
ment of that country. Now the liberty of locuruotiou
was more and more exercised by the Irish every day in this

Country. He (Lord Darnley; endeavoured to obtain from
the Government returns of the number of Irish who cam
country for the last three years. It was, however,
impossible to ascertain the fact ; hut he might at all events
take it for granted that the numbers had been rapidly in-
creasiog. The consequence would be, that in a little time
it veould produce what he might call an amalgamation of
•misery in the two countries. The Irish peasant would he
found either starving at home, or living on the English
pootarates. Let nut their Lordships take this on his (Lord
T2darnley's) assertion. He was borne out by the report of
the emigration committee. (Here the Noble Earl read a
passage from the report, arguing that unless relief was afe
forded through means of emigration, the consequencewoeld
be the ruin of the English and the Scotch labourer, parti-
cularly since the facilities of travelling had been increased
between the two islands by means of the steam navigation.)
His Lordship next referred to a clever publication, written
by Dr. Elmore, a very intelligent gentleman who had, hr
said, established a manufactory in tke south of Ireland,
which, however, he had been obliged to withdraw, from
the want of security. In this publication, which the
writer had done him (the Earl of Darnley) the honour
so address to him, were the following observations,
which were well worthy of attention---'‘ The irresis-
tible tide of emigration from Ireland towards these
countries has already set in, and has been materially
facilitated by steam navigation ; so much so, that the
credulity of the most ignorant will coon be convinced
that 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 of people; with all their
natural powers, and great energies of mind, will not
much longer suffer, without making en effort to find beater
quarters." Every year, it is ascertained that inoreasing
thousands are coining over ; and in a short time it is to be
apprehended, that driven by want, aerti aided, as they now
are, by the subscriptions of the tither classes in Irelauti
they will coins over in horde;, like the Goths and Vandals
of other times, and make a settlement in this country,
where they hope their labour will be duly rewarded, and
from which no Act of Parliament will be able to dislodge,
them. By competition for employment, they will be able
se defeat every humane effiirt to keep up the present con-
dition of the labourers of England; their necceeeities will
oblige them to work fur half the usual teeages in this cowl-
try; the English workman must either work for the same
rate, er he will not get employment ; he is thus thrown
on the poor-rates for parish alloWance, and in alit! tvay is
the burden of supporting the Irish poor put opon parishes!
Such considerations are by no means chimerical, for, to a
certain extent it is already actually the case. If this sys-
tern went on, continued his Lordship, the rents of the
Irish landlords would be paid out of the English peer-rates.
The Noble Earl here read extracts from tint evidence of
Dr. Doyle and others before the Committee, descrip-
tive of the wretchedness of tire Irish poor, and its
effects; although, his Lordellip said, the present tTre
halcyon days with the Irish peasantry, for they might exist
for three farthings a day, that being the price of a stone of
potatoes in the county of Limerick at piteent. He might
also sell his pig at a high price; the animal which he told
the Englishman, "had the best right to associate with his
family, because it was it that paid the rent." The only
relief in the power of Government was emigration, and if
that were carried into effect, it could only afford partial
relief. But it seemed that would be more advantegeesas
here than in Ireland. He knew that it had been adopted
in some parishes to relieve the poor-rates. A gentleman
in the county of Kent told him, that by Means of a sum of
money lent by him on security of the poors'-rates, 18 indi-
viduals had emigrated from that parish, and he was convitte
ced that the saving which was thereby effeeted in the
posers' rates would repay him in a short time. But when
he limed that 1,140,0001. had only defrayed the expenses
of the emigration of 96,000 persons in three years, and
when he contrasted that number with the populetion
of Ireland (eight millions)—supposing only six or
even five millions of these unemployed, and supposing
that the whole of this sum weve appropriated to Ire-
lanfl,—it appeared that this teem would only enable one-
sixtieth or one-fiftieth of the Irish unemployed population
to emigrate in three years, in which period the increase of
population would more than fill up the gap. The Noble
Earl next referred to a publication of Mr. Sedler's, to show
that population always increased in the inverse ratio of its
density. The more you unpeopled Ireland, therefore, the
snore her population would increase. Thus in the province
of Ulster, which consisted of 251 square miles, the increase
of population from )813 to 1821 was 11 per cent. ; in
Leinster, 216 square mike, 16 per cent. ; in Munster, 204 •
square miles, 20 per cent. ; and in Connaught, 162 square •
miles, and the most thinly inhabited province, 2S pet- cent,
But there were other sources also. It was in the power
of individuals to something—and he was quite sure
that every Noble Lord who had property and influence in
Ireland would see the necessity of spending some part of
his income, at least in alleviating the misery of that
part of the population of. the country who were found
upon hie estate. The only way in which this misery
could be effectually alleviated was, by giving occasional
employment to those unable to procure it for themselves.
It wee anticipated by all those who advocated the Union,
that the diffusion of capital throughout Ireland would be
one of the consequences of that ineasine. Da they hail
been disappointed, and why had they been disappointed
Because Mr. Pitt had newer been able to carry another
measure which there could be no doubt that Minister con-
eemplated. It was perfectly notorious, though, indeed, lie
had heard it contradicted in that House, that Mr. Pitt did
contemplate the success of that great measure, and Lord
Camden had expressly stated the settlement of the great
question of the Catholic claims was one of the plans of
those persons who brought about the Union between the
two countries. Until all religious distinctions were re-
moved, and that question for ever set at rest, which had,
and which would ever continue to be, the bane of Ireland,
property would still be insecure in that country, and her
inhabitants would still remain in their present unsettled
and discontented state. And what hail been—what must
ever be the result ? Clearly this—that no capitalist in
hits senses would trust his money in such a country. But
he would not anticipate this great question, which must
shortly be brought under the serious consideration of their
Lordships. Front the very nature of his subject, how-
ever, he was compelled to advert to it. It had been
Mated, and lie heard the statement with the utmost
Astonishment, that the rich only were interested in this
eilestion. But this statement was nit only unfounded
led incorrect, but it had been made in the face of
the proofs adduced before a Committee of the House of
Commons of the feeling which pervaded the'whole Pop" •
lation of Ireland on this question, and of the discontent.
and irritation which that question excited in the minds of
the, people of that country, whatever their rank or station
might be. It was impoesible that the 'Tor must not be
more interested in tranquillizing Ireland than the rich ;
and he absolutely despaired of any important amelioration
in the condition of that unfortunate people till this great
question was. set at reet. [The Noble Lord here read the
evidence of Mr. James Cropper, which was to the effect,
that not only was not English capital sent to Ireland, but
that Irish capital was constantly transferred to England,
in consequence of the insecurity of property in the former
country.] The Noble Lord continued. He had been in-
formed, and he believed that his information might be de-
pended upon, that Irish capital, amounting to between
5,000,000/. and 9,000,0001., was at this moment invested
in the Englielt Funds. Now, Mr. Cropper also stated it
to be his opinion, that the distrust arising from the Ca-
tholic Question was the cause of this insecurity of pro-
perty in Ireland. Ile (the Earl of Darnley) had also
been informed that very day, that there were millions of
English capital ready to be vested in Ireland as soon as
that question was set at rest. Were their Lordships then
to be told that the poor of Ireland had no interest in the
question? tea interest in a question which, .fsettled, would
procure them employment and the meads of comfort-
able
subsistence? He trusted that their Lordships would
never again be told that the rich alone were interested in
this question, and that it was a matter of perfect indif-
ference to the poor. He would not fatigue their
upon their their Lord-
ships much longer; but must endeavour to fix
attention the fact, that in Ireland there was a large pro-.
portion of the population able and willing to work, but
iiltugether destitute of eniployineut. He trusted that their'
Lordships would not refuge an inquiry into this subject,
because surrounded by difficulties.. In a pamphlet lately
published, and entitled, "A Report to Marquis Wellesley
from Mrs. Fry and Mr. John Joseph Gurney," it was
suggested as an expedient for the amelioration of the con-
dition of the Irish people, that an extension of those esta-
blislanents which existed more particularly in Dublin, but
whose exertions had been cramped by want of funds—he
meant the Mendicity Associetiene—might be productive of
much good. It was suggested, that by establishments of
this nature,
which should be supported, by voluntary sub-
scriptions, and aided to a certain extent by the Govern-
inent, the poor would stand some chance of being taken
care of in sickness and povera... He thought the
suggestion worthy of considerat.:it, but the point
which he wished to impress upon their Lordships
was this,—that, at present,there was no provi-
sion whatever for the poor of Ireland, except the
bounty of their neighbours, and that there had been
numerous instances of these unhappy persons
.having pee
rished from actual starvation. The Noble Lord (the Earl
of Limerick) shakes his head, and say; that such things
have sometimes happened in England; but, though such
occurrences might now and then have happened in the
sh_rtolew-
tropelis and in towns, he defied the Noble Lord to
him the possibility of it happening in the country, By

the evidence of Mr. John Markham Marshall, who had
erected large works in Ireland, it appeared that hundreds
flocked in to obtain employment, and tuany of them had
not tasted food for two days, and some were so weak that
he was obliged to feed them for six weeks before he could
put them to work. He (the Earl of Darnley) knew, of
his own knowledge, of a set of labourers who were put to
work by subscriptions last summer; and among them were
some in such a state of exhaustion, from want of food,
that the overseer was ashamed to set theni to work. It
was therefore his wish to see if some means could
adopted, by which local cOntributions should be insisted
Upod how the landowners, in order to extricate their
indigent fellow-creature; from destruction. [The Noble
Lord here read some extracts front papers, which he said
were the " Annals of a Village" in a part of Ireland
which was in comparative prosperity, and froth therti
it appeared that many persoiis lid been found dead iii
the neighbourhood-, and that there was every reason to be-
lieve that they died of starvation.] He would again assert
his conviction, that at this moment many perished front I
actual want. Was it possible, then, that be was speaking
in a tivilized and Christian country, when, wit!: these
dreadful facts before their eyes, ha was told that he was
opening a shop of t-rievances? Why, Ireland had been
a bazaar, well stocked with grievances for many years
tact. Was lie speaking in an assembly of Christians
He had found their Lordships, uti a late occasion, very
anxious to call themselves Christians, and would they now
see their ftllow-Christians starving? He felt that he had
Net', able to give but an imperfect representation of the
state of this unhappy people. Did their Lordships believe
the representation which he had made? Then let them
grant the inonity, as the only means of providing a remedy.
Did their Lordships think that he over-stated the case ;
teat he had coloured the picture too highly? Let them
bring it to the test of an inquiry. In either case he was
justified in calling upon their Lordships to agree to his
motion. The Noble Duke at the head of the Administra-
tion had not, he was sure, forgotten the services of that
people, to whom he was greatly indebted for the com-
position of those armies which, as a soldier, he had so
often led to victory ; and now that the Noble Duke was
Prints Minister of the country, surely he would leave no
mans untried to relieve their distress, or hesitate to have
recourse to the measure which he (the Earl of Darnley)
contended could alone effect permanent good to Ireland.
He would detain theta Lordships no longer than to move,
that "a Szlect Committee he appointed to inquire into the
diStreised state of Ireland, and to report thereon.

On the question being put,
The Earl of LIMERICK said, the Noble Lord bad
moved for a Committee, but upon what grounds? Upon
rumour; the most vague. The Noble Lord had, indeed,
giren theni the evidence ar,d opinions of . Catholic priests,
but he had adduced no facts which could warrant their
Lordships in pi oceeding to the appointment of a Com-
mittee. He really thought that when any Noble Lord
gave notice of a motion, involving the peace and tran-
quillity of a nation, some strong and sufficient grounds
ought to he adduced in support of the motion. He was
apprehensive that the whole end, the secret purpose, of
the Noble Lord, was to introduce the Poor Laws into Ire-
land ; and he was convinced that, than this, no measure
could be more pregnant with danger and mischief. He
would appeal to the Noble Lords around him, many of
whom were well acquainted with Ireland, whether
they recognized any similitude to the original in the
highly coloured caricature which the Noble Lord had
presented to their view ? The Noble Lord had said
at the beginning of his speech that he did not wish
to introduce the Poor Laws, in all their rigour,
into Ireland. He (the Earl of Limerick) rejoiced to hear
this declaration of the Noble Lord's. But it was with the
greatest surprise that he had heard the Noble Lord, in the
conclusion of his speech, which, like all other things, car-
ried mischief in its tail, declare that this forced assessment
was absolutely necessary. The Noble Lord, whose feelings
of humanity were strong with respect to the poor Irish,
would debar them from earning to this country in search of
what every individual had a right to—the means of sub-
sistence. Would the Noble Lord say that Irishmen must
not come to this country ? Then let him stop them in
the attempt. Let him say to them—" Misery and
wretchedness are stamped upon your face. It is true that
there is an union, hut it is a mere paper union. Go back,
you shan't pollute our shore with your footsteps." Would
the Noble Lord do this? He (the Earl of Limerick)
would not. But, did the Noble Lord mean to say, that
it would he satisfactory to Ireland that 7,000,0001.
should be paid for poor's rates, as in this country? If such
a syatem were introduced, then indeed would the Spencean
doctrines be practically felt throughout the country ;
then 01l would be equality; and as long as any
property existed in the country, the Irish would eat the
bread of idleness, and refuse to engage in any labour, ex-
cept the labour of getting children, and swelling the popu-
lation to an overwhelming extent.—(Hear, and laughter.)
How had Ireland been reduced to this extremity, but by
the oppression of their sorestors ? From the reign of
Elizabeth to the year I 753, all was oppression. The
great Lord Stafford, writing to a certain Min ster in this
countrv, said, that though he allowed the Irish a little
trade, he would take care to suppress their rising energy
for trade and commerce, and adopt such measures as would
prevent Ireland from ever competing with England in any
Way whatever. The successors of that nobleman adopted the
same line of policy. Ireland must export nothing ; its
cattle must not be sent to this country, because they would
lower the market. Let the taxes be taken off the people
of Ireland, and then they would be found to be an indus-
trious nation. There was one part of the Noble Lord's speech
with which he fully concurred. Let the people of that coun-
try be placed upon an equal footing, and in a very short time
they would hear no more about poverty and distress.
The Noble Lord had talked of the Act of Elizabeth; but
if the proper course had been adopted then—if they, to
whom the revenues of the convents and monasteries were
granted, had been made t I support the poor, there would
have been no occasion for such an Act. But the Noble
Lord was mistaken in saying that there was no provision
for the poor in Ireland. It appeared by an authentic
statement, which he held in his hand, that the revenues of
one poor-house alone amounted to upwards of 1,882/.
Whatever might be said to the contrary, the Government
had done much. They had employed people in great
numbers, as far as lay in their power, and they could not
do more. The Noble Earl's proposition for a modified
poor-rate could not, he conceived, succeed. It would, in
fact, leave the distress of Ireland just in the same state as
before. It would inflict a heavy grievance on ens class of
persons in the country, but it would not alleviate, much
less remove, the extreme distress under which the people
were writhing. Though he felt great respect for the opi-
nions of the Noble Earl, still he deemed it to be his duty
to oppose this motion.
The Earl of LONGFORD, in opposing the motion,
hoped it would not be understood that ha meant, in taking
that course, to deny the existence of great distress in Ire-
land. His reason for opposing the motion arose entirely
from his conviction, that the provision which the Noble
Earl seemed inclined to propose would not have the effect
which he hoped would arise from it. Considering the
impracticability of applying to useful purposes such a mea-
sure as the Noble Earl contemplated, and believing that if
general relief were granted, the mischief occasioned by it
would he infinitely greater than any good that it was likely
to effect, he trusted that their Lordships would not sanction
it. The Noble Earl appeared to think, that the misery of
Ireland was mainly to be attributed to the failure of the
Popery question. This was one of the many nostrums
put forth for the tranquillization of Ireland ; but in his
opinion, like other boasted specifics, it would not produce
the supposed effect, if recourse were had to it.
Lord LORTON complained that although the Noble
Earl (Darnley) was an excelient landlord, he was only an
absentee, and wanted the-practical experience necessary to
enable him to arrive at a correct conclusion on this great
I subject.. In• much that he had said, however, regarding
etiiidee(ranryd
beggedoft
he Irish peasantry, he (Lord Lorton) coin-
to add the result of his own actual ex-
perience ; in doing so be would " nothing extenuate, nor
• set down aught in malice." The extreme poverty of the
people was the great evil of Ireland, and many cases might
be assigned for this calamitous condition of the people. It
was not his intention to occupy the time of their Lord-
ships by a
.detail of many varieties of those causes. Nu-
merous recipes had been proposed, and each as a radical
cure, and of one of them something had been already said
i.ilYiaemarenatf,tEe,,rmnd)a-enaacirnipoianttghioadsnoinh):Heiieti in the course
ofatttehnetioviein.o7gP.
forced on the
went by the erroneo.us title of Catholic
would endeavour briefly to ascertain how far such a measure,
if carried into effect, would improve the condition of seven
millions of fellow-creatures. The more attention he had
given to this question, the more he was confirmed in the
opinion that if the claims were conceded the miseries of Ire-
land would be increased, and the chains of her !slavery rivetted.
He requested their Lordships to take only a cursory view of
thesw tpzer
nndt
o::,o,enrd iltvihonichofthdeiffsaemreentci,Trrts; of
ghts Europe.averl
were enjoyed
joyel
by all, some of the cantons were Protestant,. and some Ca-
tholic ; in the former all was industry, comfort, and clean-
liness—in the latter, every thing presented an appearance.
the very reverse. How, then was such an extraordinary
circumstance, such a phenomenon, to be accounted for'.'
It could not be the effect of the penal laws, which were
stated to be so grievous in Ireland, for they did not exist,
with the exception of such as popery enacted, and would
enact as long as it retained its religious dominion. Proceed-

ing southward to Italy, the garden of Europe, it was seen
that Catholicism there spread its baleful influence; and,
under a pure sky, and in a genial climate, languished the
poor cultivators of the soil. As they approached the head-
quarters of the Romish priesthood they would be more for-
cibly struck with the deplorable aspect of the country—it
was the perfect fitc,simiie of Ireland and of Irish cabins.
—A similar observation might be made of every country
in which the Roman Catholic religion bad full sway.—
There was no real patriot, no man who wished to benefit his
country. that Ns mild lend himself to a Measure that would
reduce this noble and free country td a state of slavery, and
which would introduce every calamity that could be in-
flicted on mankind. Having said so much on the first
Tiestion, he should make a few observations upon the
second. There was a Parliament regularly sitting in
Ireland—it exacted universal obedience, and issued its
orders to the high and the low, the tich and the poor.
One of the polished geniuses of Popery in that body in ad-
dressing his deluded countrymen, used this exciting- quo-
tation,— . _

" Hereditary bondsmen ! know ye not
Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow."
That Parliament must be crushed ; and to crush it would
be a positive act of Mercy to the people, whom it kept in
real bondage. Tht?. College of Maynouth was a proof of
the blind obedience required from the people. Enough was
known of them to make it worthy of becoming a question,
whether they should be permitted to exist? Its priests
were dispersed throughout Ireland, and every where arrayed
themselves against the system of Parish Schools and of
plans of instruction. Their inhence is directed against all
who do not submit to them. As an instance of that, he
would mention, that an eminent physician, a man of very
high talent, was in one of the towns of Ireland denounced
by one of the priests, and was in consequence stripped of
all his practice. This was only one of a numerous class
of cases which sheaved who were the oppressors and who
the oppressed. There was, he was, bound to say, a
striking contrast between priests who were educated
abroad, and those who came from the College of May-
, nooth.—(llear, hear.) The former were well disposed to-
wards the Protestants; but the others had for their ob-
ject to drive all those out of the country who would not
submit to their violent and arrogant pretensions. If their
Lordships wished to perpetuate the miseries of Ireland, let
them grant Catholic Emancipation, for then those miseries
would be rendered perpetual, confirmed as the power of
the Priests would be by this creation of an imperium in
imperio. He might be asked what he should propose as
a remedy for the miseries of Ireland. He felt no difficulty
in giving an answer, and his answer was simply this.
" Gire work to all who want it." He might be asked
how he proposed to afford employment to those who want-
ed it ?—(Hear, hear.)—He thought a sufficient fund
might be raised for that purpose from a general land and
absentee tax, which, under proper regulations, might be
employed in the country from which it was raised with the
greatest benefit. By this plan they would change the
habits of the people,.and render Ireland what, most unfor-
tunately, it was not now—namely, a desirable place to re-
side in. He trusted that that country would no longer he de-
luded with half measures, or what were falsely called measures
of conciliation. These had been tried over and over again,
and had always failed. Let something he done for the relief
of the poor, and without ceremony, let them extinguish
the Popish Priests. Then, and not till then, would Ireland
be emancipated, in the true sense of the work. In proof
of this he would refer them to the contents of a Report,
made by the Guild of Merchants in Dublin, on the 22d of
February last, in which was a most accurate statement of
the present condition of Ireland, and in which it was
proved that the respectability, the wealth, and the strength
of Ireland were in the Protestants, and not in the Catholics,
as the demagogues said. All the Protestants required was
to be supported ; and if they were, they would do their
duty by the Empire, and every thing would assume a most
satisfactory appearance.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—I have but a few
words to address to your Lordships, and those few words
shall be confined to the question immediately before the
House. That question is, whether we should establish a
Committee to inquire into the circumstances stated, with
regard to the condition of Ireland, by the Noble Earl.
Before, however, I proceed to the discussion of that point,
I may assure him that I am thoroughly convinced there is
no part of his Majesty's dominions that require so much
the attention of his Majesty's servants as Ireland. The
Noble Earl has told us that there are eight millions of
people in that country, six millions of whom require
employment. He has told us, likewise, that all the
wealth of Ireland is not sufficient to give employment
to these people. My Lords, I must say, with every
respect for the Noble Earl, that I cannot but think
that this is an exaggerated statement on his part. It
cannot be a fact that there are six millions of people in
that country who require employment ; but it is of no
use inquiring into that particular part of the subject (though
I must say I dispute it), because, in point of fact
and he has stated the evidence that the House has before

it on this subject, the poor there do suffer a most consi-
derable degree of distress. It is not true that the distress
exists at all times; it is not true that it exists in the same
degree in different years ; but it is true that it does happen
at particular times, front the casual circumstances of the
seasons, and from the particular food on which the people
there subsist. The Noble Earl has told us this food is
sold at three farthings a stone. Now really that that people
should suffer distress, except as I have already stated, from
the casual circumstances of the seasons, with provisions at
that price, does appear to me a matter that hardly requires
any inquiry, except at the time that'the supply of that food
does fail from the circumstances of the seasons. No inquiry
is necessary to prove that when that event happens, distress
must ensue. If we want evidence of that fact, we have
it before us in the statements of persons of authority.—
There can be no doubt of it. Then I say that that distress
has no regard to the want of work among the people. That
want of work the Noble Earl does not call on us to relieve,
fur to that relief he says that all the wealth of Ireland is in-
sufficient ; but he requires us to relieve the lame, the im-
potent, the aged, and the sick. Now, I believe it is true,
as the Noble Earl statue, that we may relieve the second
branch, but not the other. The gentlemen of Ireland have
already contributed largely to the relief of that casual dis-
tress. It is true, with all that can be done, when there is ge-
nerd distress arising from the circumstances I have already
stated, that all they can do will not relieve all the cases of
distress, and that shocking instances of distress will happen;
but I must beg leave to say, that if he intends to confine
relief solely to the aged, the impotent, time lame, and the
sick, it will fall short very far short, of doing away with
that distress which arises from a want of employment. It
is for those who are in want of employment that relief is
required in Ireland, and not for the others. There is
another observation I will make, which results from the
state of the poor in this country. The Poor Laws of this
country are applied, and the great burden which attends
that part of the law is, that it requires work shall be
furnished to the able bodied. The reason why this system
must be pursued in Ireland, if the Poor Laws are once
established there, is not merely that these persons require
employment and food, but in truth, if work is not furnished,
and food given to these able-bodied persons, they will im-
mediately fall sick ; and I beg your Lordships to look to
this, that if this is a burden on the landed property of Ire-
land, you must suffer it ; for if it is admitted to be neces-
sary to give food to the sick, while it is refused to the able-
bodied, the consequence will be, that half the pop-illation
will claim it, for nobody will work, and when they fall
sick, they will come on the rates. It seems to me that
the measure now proposed is not a fit subject for
the inquiry of Parliament. It has been said, truly, that
one of the great evils of Ireland is want of capital. I beg,
however, to remind your Lordships, that capital alone will
not necessarily prevent the existence of the evil, and re-
move the burden of the poor; and as an evidence of the
truth of this assertion, I relay refer to the example of this
country, in which there is no want of capital. It has
been said, that 95 millions of that capital belong to Ireland
alone ; and yet, for the sustenance of the poor of this country
seven millions were required in the course of last year.--
All this is perfectly well known. That fact has been
stated in the opinions of Mr. Frankland Lewis and others
who have been examined before your Lordships. They
have told you that the Poor Laws, as they exist here and
in Scotland, are not applicable to Ireland. You have
these opinions for your guidance, and I should like to know
why you should now have a Committee on this subject to
require similar opinions from different persons? A Com-
mittee on such a subject tends only to excite anticipations
in the public mind, which it would be discreet to avoid ;
and I therefore think that, unless some plan well attested
is submitted to our consideration, we had much better
avoid an inquiry that may only lead to disappointment.
The Earl of MOONTCASHEL opposed the motion on
two grounds, I st, beeause, if they granted relief, it would
only enable the people to pay more money to the Catholic
Association ; 2d, that it would diminish the rent of the
landlords, and if the lands were not cultivated, the
country would be depopulated. So long as the people
could get a potato, and were not asked for rent, so long
would they be satisfied.
The Earl of DARNLEY, observing, the feelings of the
Noble Duke opposite, and perceiving that they were con-
curred in by many Noble Lords connected with Leland,
ivho must be better acquainted with what was calculated
for its happiness, felt that be ought not pertinaciously to
persist in pressing his motion: He was not more friendly
to the Catholic Religion than was the Noble Lord (Lorton):

who was so anxious t..) Pi otestantize Ireland ; but mire
be was that the constant vituperation of the Catholics, and
of their Clergy, was not the best mode of making con-
verts, or of allaying the animosities, that unfortunately
prevailed in that country.
Lord Loatox, Lord LIMERICK, and Lord MOUNT-
CASHEL, severally explained.
The question was then put, and the motion was nega-
tived without a division.
Several private Bills were passed through their respec-
tive stages.
PENRYN DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Pen-
tyn Disfranchisement Bill.
Counsel were called in, and witnesses examined in sup-
port of the Bill.
John Spry was examined relative to the canvass of 1824.
Witness proved that 51. had been paid to a person named
Mallet, to be given by him to a voter of the name of
Durn,tan.
Mallet was then called in, and proved that he gave 51. to
Dunstan to vote, just as he was about to give his vote.
Capt. Fellows, R.N. was examined. He had heard of
several instances of bribery ; but none came under his own
notice. He believed that four-sevenths of the voters re-
quired to be paid for their votes.
The Marquis of SALISBURY observed that if the
House went on in this manner, examining witnesses as to
facts with which they were unacquainted, the House might
go on ad infinitum
The further examination of the witnesses was then post-
poned, and the House adjourned at ELEVEN O'CLOCK.