The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-18 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 17.

Sir J. GRAHAM presented a petition from the Wool-
growers of Norwich, in favour of the circulation of small
notes. Also petitions from Pocklington, Headon, and
Wintertori, and from Ousekeld, Yorkshire, against Negro
Slavery.

On the motion of Mr, MANNING, the London Docks
Bill was read a third time and passed.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the
Corporation of Deal, against the Ale-blouse Licensing Bill.
Mr. GRATTAN presented a petition from Cork and its
vicinity, against Negro Slavery. Also a petition from Mr.
J. S. Luke, praying that the House would take into con-
sideration the state of the Peasantry of Ireland.
Mr. MUNDAY presented a petition from Werksworth,
in favour of the Circulation of Small Notes.

• Sir E. OWEN preSented a petition from the Mayor,
Jurats, &e. of the town of Sandwich against the Alehouse
Licensing Bill.
Mr. F. BUXTON presented a petition from Kingston-
upon-Hull against negro slavery in the West Indies; also
similar petitions from Stuurbridge, Lowestoff, Stroud,
Cromar, and Halstead. These petitions suggested that
children born in the reign of George the Fourth should
be free.

Mr. F. BUXTON presented a petition to the same
effect from the Society of Friends. This Society had at
one time passed a resolution to the effect that no Member
of the Society should hold his fellow-creature in bondage,
awl in one instance, in North Carolina, tkey had actually
sacrificed about 50,000/. in accordance with that resolu-
tion, having in effect released negroes to that value,
though nominally they remained in bondage, for accord-
ing to. the laws of the province they had no right to grant
them manumission.

Sir A. GRANT said, that it was very easy for those
who had no interest iu the matter, to exercise their philan-
thropic principles upon the property of others. He was
as much opposed to slavery as the Hon. Gentleman, but
then when they had invested their - money in that
species of property, under the faith of that House, and of
the nation, they were surely entitled to some compensation
if the property was taken from them. He repeated that
he did not stand up in that House as an advocate for sla-
very, but when they had thus invested their money, and
had been encouraged, to do so by the nation, it was not
right to take the mor.-y tiut of their pockets without afford-
ing them the slightest compensation.
The petition was then ordered to be laid on the table.
Mr. F. BUXTON presented a similar petition from
Chipping Norton.
Mr. F. BUXTON presented a petition from the Con-
gregation assembling in Lady Huntingdon's Chapel, in
Ashbourne, praying that the burning of women in India
might be put a stop to. Also similar petitions from the
Baptist Congregation assembling in Canon-street, Bir-
mingham, from the Baptists of Bond-street and of Lom-
bard-street, Birmingham, and from Melbourne.
Mr. L. KECK presented a petition from Cystrund,
against Slavery.
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved that the petitions pre-
sented the other night, relative to the removal of Smith-
field Market, should be referred to the Committee on the
said Bill —Agreed to. .

Mr. P. THOMPSON presented a petition from the in.
habitants of Folkestone against the Ale House Licensing
Bill.

Mr. C. WYNNE presented a petition from Montgomery,
in favour of the Circulation of Small Notes.

Sir F. BARING presented a petition from Chipping
Wickham, against Negro Slavery.
Mr. IIEATHCOTE presented a petition from the Wool-
growers of a parish in Caernarvon, praying for a Duty on
the Importation of 'Foreign Wool.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT presented certain papers relative
to the payments made by the Commissioners for the liqui-
dation of the French Claims, pursuant to the Orders of the
House.--Ordered to lie on the table.
SLAVERY.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH presented two petitions
from Milford and Dungannon, for the Abolition of Slavery.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE IN INDIA BILL.

On the motion of Dr. PHILLIMORE, the Criminal
Justice in India Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to he committed on Monday next.
INSOLVENT DEBTORS' (INDIA) BILL.
_ _

On the motion of Dr. PHILLAIORE the Insolirent
Debtors' (India) Bill was read a s,conil time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday next.

CINQUE PORTS' BILL.

On the motion of Dr. PHILLIMORE the House re-
solved itself into Committee on the Cinque Ports' Bill.
The Bill having passed through a Committee the House
resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-
morrow. '

Mr. CHAPLIN presented a petition from Grantham,
Lincoln, against the Act for limiting the circulation of
small notes in April, 1829.
Sir A. GRANT brought up the Report on the Regis-
trars' Office, Ireland.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that under this Bill there
were lees imposed for registering deeds, which were not
imposed in Ireland. What cost only ls. under the name
of a fee in this country, was to be charged ten shillings
in Ireland. This was in fact a great tax on the transfer of
real property, which he did not think ought to he imposed
on the landed proprietors of Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER said that
the Schedule of Fees in the Bill had been fixed upon the
recommendation of a Commission of this flame.

The report was agreed to, and the Bill tva,, ordered to be
read a third time to-morrow.
CALCUTTA PETITION.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose to present a petition
from certain persons in Calcutta, praying for relief from
grievances under which they suffer, in consequence of cer-
tain ineastu'es adopted towards them by the Government of
India. It came from almost all the respectable waive in-
habitants of the place, and from all the unrepresented and
unofficial Europeans resident in Calcutta; a city, which,
in point of population, was the second in the British
Empire, which was the capital of the British dominion in
Asia, a dominion that contained not less than 80,000,000 of
inhabitants ; and which, in point of capacity and extant, was
coital in one direction• to that space upon the surface of our
perfectly information
Co
obtainedl.
y whichtitodwo ft, fewerf.'imieitchtideinihri the
ielea'nspi
t,>t,' /hi& Stretches from Andalusia to, Lapland : and in
another direction to a portion of the samesurface, stretching
from the western coast of Ireland to Mount Taurus. ( Hear.)
Tito petition wits to be taken as that of all those inhabitants
of Calcutta who were in a condition to avow their own
e
there
ohpt
talet:vs}:ht
ietelainroti
petitioners
individuals
.eeroidxsvr
ii:dtwttiueee authorities,
a)whjt
eehecleratwer:o;e: •
opinions; and font personal knowledge, as well as from;
e
ber
ecommunityrsoe4,:t
ad:iviei
1,41 i
nn.
fliese petitioners was to object agE„inst 4. stamp ditty im-
posed upon them by an Act of Par))arpea passed about 14
rnooths ago—(Hear, liear)—the efict of which was to
impoae 4 t4.X which had never been introduced into Cal-
cutta before. TI
peptioners strongly complained of
. .
,this duty as illegally Imposedl99o. them, as unjust in
its principle, and as most inequitably directed against
them, looking to the peculiar nature of their relations
with this country. Now, of the first of these grounds
of objection he waS tipt prepared to give any opinion.--
As to the injustice of the principle, besides disputing their
liability to such an impost, levied by the anthorities here,
they alleged and were prepared to prove that while the
general population of Bengal provided its quota of the re-
venue raised by the Indian Government at the rate of
about Frs. per head, Calcutta already contribnted at the
rate of IOS. per head. It was also otlded, that this tax
was one most expensive in its collection, the charge of col-
lection varying from 40 to 45 per cent. (Hear.) He
now came to what appeared to him matteruf very serious
consideration—the question of the power eaereteed, and

the policy pursued, by the Government of this country in
the imposition of this tax open India. (Hear.) He
knew very well that though most men would concede to
I him that such an imposition was the result of an erroneous
policy, some might rejitend that necessity had rendered it
unavoidable; and precedents, no doubt, might be readily
qUoted for the measure.-13ut every one of those precedents
unhappily would forcibly demonstrate its imprudence.
The question here was, whether the British inhabitants of
India ought to he called on to bear equal burdens before they
were admitted to equal privileges with their fellow subjects,
in respect of the parent state—(cheers)—whether they were
not under their present condition, most inequitably called on
to bear the burdens, while debarred from the privileges ?
He thought they were. He asked no more for them than
was already enjoyed by every other description of our sub-
jects throughout the vast regions of India.—(Hear.)—
These equal privileges were possessed by all the native sub-
jects, Hindoos, Geutoos, and Malromedans.. None but
Englishmen .or Europeans were denied them.--(llear,
hear.)--Now, he had understood that he was to be met
by au objection in the very threshold of his argument, for
the extension of the same rights to British born subjects.
He was to be told that the present system of 'our Govern-
ment had been found to answer well; and this had been
the fatal principle upon which we had always, of late years,
legislated with regard to India—any thing to put off the
consideration of a question of this kind---any thing rather
than waste a minute on the affairs of so vast a portion of
our Empire. Had not the history of our legislature in
1773, 1784, 1793, and 1813, demonstrated th same pro-
crastinating disinclination to look this subject in the
face; and we had gone on with a system of
misrule, which combined the disadvantages of all
other systems, and was serious without deliberation,
and sudden without vigour. The two last times
that we had legislated for India occurred in the first and
last years of the most terrible conflict in which this coun-
try was ever engaged ; these were not good seasons for
introducing improvements, however • palpable their exi-
gency, into such a system. Three years now remained
before the Government must finally determine whether the
prosent system of Indian Government should be further
persevered in. This would not be found too long a term
for a mature consideration of the question. The Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then went into the discus-
sion of the existing political condition of the petitioners ;
and contrasted the first part of their exclusion from civil
and political privileges with the admission of the Hindoo,
the Tartar, the Gentoo, the Brat:nen, the Parsee, the Bud-
dist, and the Blioodist to them. He contended that the
whole scheme of such a Government, of such a conquered
country, was without example iu the history of nations.
We had applied the maxims of factories to the administra-
tion of empire. He then reviewed the objections which
were taken in 1813 to the alterations introduced in our
Indian system, and demonstrated their fallacy; and hence
he argued, that much greater improvements might yet be in-
troduced, India might be colonised by our own people ; and
the seal of monopoly being taken off that noble country,
.our political power might be enlarged, the parent state
be relieved, and our expenditure diminished. He added,
that returns in his hand demonstrated beyond dispute the
rapid advance in amount and value of the exports to Bri-
tish India during the last seven years ; so little truth was
there in the notion of the immutable condition of the na-
tive population, and of the impossibility of their demand
for our manufactures, &c. increasing. In his (Sir James
Mackintosh's) views upon India, lie was borne out by the
travels of the late Bishop Heber, that amiable, excellent,
and admirable ecclesiastic of the infant Church Establish-
ment in India. That competent judge of the matter de-
clared that the more English there were.in India the bet-
ter ; and that English projects, and the knowledge of ling-
land and English habits, since the relaxation of the
charter, had stretched to the farthest extremitieonf that
country. Articles of English manufacture had even tra-
velled to the very verge of the North-western Desert,
amongst tribes to whom twenty years ago, the very name
of England was unknown ; and who would have been
unable to point out the quarter of the globe in which the
island was situated ? So far then one objection urged to the
relaxation of the charter had been removed, and the other
had been equally falsified by experience. Two persons
only were found to oppose the host of witnesses brought for-
ward. One of these was Lord Grenville, whose compre-
hensive principles of philosophy, united with a knowledge
of the minute details of the subject, enabled his sound un-
derstanding to discern the fallacy of the doctrines promul-
gated on that occasion. The other was a gentleman who
was then, although not now, a Member of that Manse,
Mr. Rickards—a man not the less remarkable for
his great talents and learning than for the extraor-
dinary benevolence of his moind. He also made a
stand ; but the majority of the legislators of that day only
presuined to act against tike host of witnesses whose testi-
mony was in opposition to them with fear and trembling.
The oinOstion now for the noise was, whether they should
sot at once go into the inquiry, instead of postponing it to
the period when they would be called upon to pronounce a
decision. By beginning early they would be enabled to go
on slowly and steadily to the end. By such means our
Empire in that quarter of the globe would not again be
liable to become the prize of a disgraceful struggle be-
tween two parties, or the subject of a long and clamorous
debate, which scarcely deserved the name of discussion.—
But, by taking the course he recommended, they would
best arm their minds with the facts which bore upon the
question, and come to the consideration of it in a state fit
to enable them to settle the future Government of India,
and the intercourse of this and other nations with it, upon
a permanent basis. He hoped, that whenever that great
question should be discussed, that those who had not under-
taken the labour of acquiring information on the subject,
would also abstain from the responsibility of judging upon a
question affecting the happiness and interests of eighty mil-
lions of human beings.' By the appointment of a Commit-
tee now, although the subject matter of their inquiry
might require but a short period, the House would show
its disposition to sift the question with a view to a future
and more accurate investigation. The Right Hon. Geo-
tleman concluded, amidst the sheets of the House, by
moving that the petition be brought up.
The petition having been read by the Clerk, the Right
Hon. Gentleman moved that it be referred to a Select
Committee.

Mr. WYNN doubted whether his Right Hon. Friend
would attain the objects embraced in his speech by the
motion he had submitted. The petition' had simply re,
ference to the stamp duties, and he did not see how a
Committee appointed to inquire into the contents of such
a petition could branch into the important and extensive
topics which it was the object of his Right Hon. Friend
to bring into the investigation. There Wite plenty of time
yet for the discussion of these important topics, and he
trusted the House would not fail, long before the period
for the renewal of the Charter, to give its serious attention
to the subject. He confessed he did not see, that the
House could now advantageously entertain the question re-
ferred to in the petition. She stamp duty complained of
was first imposed in 1797, and be admitted it was upon
an erroneous principle, inasmuch as the object wail() dis-
courage litigation by putting a tax upon judicial pro-
ceedings. So far as that was concerned he wished to see
it remedied. But the Act of Hill was conclusive as to
the power of the Indian Government to regulate the stamp
duties-complained of. He was not one who concurred in
the Act of 1814. He was indeed in the minority upon
that Act, upon the principles of free trade. With refe-
rence, however, to that part of his Right Hon. Friend's
statement, which attacked the Indian Government
on account of its restriction on ' the emigration of
individuals to India, he did not entirely agree with his
Right Honourable Friend. Out of 965 applications
to be allowed to go out to India, 743 had been
complied with by the Board of Directors, and the Board
of Controul bad given permission to many of the re-
jected catididates. The grounds upon which the refusals
were given were, that it was not reasonable to allow indi-
viduals to go out to India, who had not a reasonable
chance of obtaining a, livelihood when they got there. Re
-
fusels were also given to persons applying to go out to India
as clerks, upon the ground- that occupations of that kind"
were now filled by the half castes; and he (Mr. Wynn):
was decidedly of opinion that a great fault had been com-
mitted in not introducing that class into the, exercise of
civil offices.—(Hear.)—With reference generally to 'our
possessions in India, it was not to be considered that we
held them merely for the benefit of this country, as a means
of settlement for the people of this country. He cousi-
dered that we had a higher duty to perform—a duty to-
wards the native population of India.—(Hear, bear.)—
In lssp, he thought it would be time enough to prepare
for the renewal of the charter. With regard to the peti-
tiono itself, he could only say, that if the Indian
the siwe;,. v
i ei of
odia
-,
n
Grn
to a Court
enlightened
that an immense principles bad been
rnent acted illegally, there was an appeal either
of Justice or to the privy Council.
A Message from the Lords here announced their Lord-
ships' Assent to several Ptivate and Public Bills.
Mr. HUME was extremely glad to be
the eight Non, Gentleman who had just sat down. He
only regretted
tolie dormant
atrib
tese
so cui
long;h
and
con-
tinent had been left so long oppressed by a bad Govern-
ment, when it appeared that it was known on what sort
of prineiples a EMOd Goveruluent could be established in
India. It had been said that this was a narrow petition,
but did it not complain that they wrre not allowed to meet,
that they, who had no representatives in that House, were
debarred from meeting together to petition against taxes

i which they had no representitives to object to for tI
Calcutta might be looked upon as the centte Of a PS,
tion of seventy or eighty millions--as the place fro ft
the rest of India 'might be expected to take its t0°604
contained a greater population than any other, totvorvio
London. Its population was greater than that of; vie
and almost as great as that of London. Ought 014"
complainants of such an extensive. community of 4 v
and Europeans to be listened 'to with great atteatigsi
Ought not the complaints of persons to be 'attended W ir
they lived in a country where any man was enbjectisio
nishment without inquiry and without trial, ivithoot
knowing the nature of his offence ? The petition,
most respectably signed, and the nature of the °over:4?l
in India sufficiently accounted for it not being pig! tie
any one immediately in the service. The refusal_°,lo
government at Calcutta to allow the petitioners to ar-reoet
for the purpose of applying to this House, was the g
instance of oppression that he ever heard of. DTI"
however, meet in defiance of the threats which low"
held out. Tyrants were not always brave, and ke.,Aice
say, that after such threats had been made, a little cover fe
was displayed when the people persisted in meeting! vif
was glad, however, that the government had acted °11,4
in not interfering. He understood that orders had
issued by persons high in office in this country, to Pitti;#
such meetings ; and he did think that it was ageeati
on the persons who had sent these orders out. Al! tlts'o,
inhabitants of India asked was, not to he taxed trito
having au opportunity of being heard. The tax 00,
diately in question, the stamp tax, excited universal el'
retire, hut it was, after all, only the spark to a mass al
powder, for there was a point at which grievances bee
intolerable ; and when he looked at the general govo
ment of India, he could only wonder that such a sYI
had been so long endured. If a proof was wanting
misgovernment of the country, let the House only look a
pauper revenue raised from ir. The population of Indis
80,000,000, and the annual revenue raised was 22,000%)
or about ss. a year for each person. In England
revenue raised amounted to Si. or 41. a head forsaohiu",
tent ; and yet India was the richest country in the
And this small receipt arose out of ae disinclination to ifs' •
taxes; duties were payable in India of a description twk,,i
at least in any European state. The system purl'',
India wee a wrong one;—wrong, both as regardea,,°,
selves at home and the people abroad, whom we gOee4"J
He happened to have in his possession rather a.curio°
cument of history, which contained the opinions ev rol
by our great enemy Buonaparte upon the subject of
nial government. The words, the accuracy of whiei,
believed might be relied upon, had been used by the,
perer in the course of a discussion upon French CO
affairs; and their teuour was as follows :—" With red
to foreign colonies," (BuonaParte said) "it is fit to ge4i.
them with energy ; that there cam be no energy or'a
there is not justice. To this end it is necessary . that,
Governmeut at home should be informed of every
that passes, and that it should hear the statements 01.
parties aggrieved or concerned ; for it is not sufflei€
merely to do that which is right, men must know
their claims are beard and their interests attended to ;
this cannot be the case unless they feel that they havel
power of making themselves heard. If the councils
State were composed of angels or gods, who
the power of intuitively comprehending and deo"'
all questions rightly, it would signify nothing' "vdt
the colonists were assured that their own staterovo
and representations were heard and taken into r°,
sideration." He (Mr. Hume) wished that the ;i
Right Hon. Secretary ter the Colonies had been still
place, and iu a condition to carry those golden priuei„'sal,
into execution. But what was the system now ,!:,11'
upon? It proceeded upon the very reverse of thew 1'0,!
its bearings. The press was stifled; every means of
ttt
munication were checked ; and upon every question
arose is India, the rulers obstinately rejected all ior°l,
tion but that which reached them through their ow° " I
tie!, channels. For these reasons, and a vast noo'ber itl,
others with which he would not detain the /101°' of,
thought the motion of his Right Hon. Friend most °Pr
tune, and should undoubtedly Support it.
Lord ASHLEY—It was difficult to make taxation P.,
latable; and to Coils particular tax, the stamp duty, els9lt
devable dislike appeared to be entertained. It was said to ,o
it was a poor pitiful tax, not producing more t
100,000/. per annum. Now the less the contribution
.1,
these individuals, the less reason had they to cotophlr),
especially when it was recollected how extremely weal' ij
this capital of central India was. Yet, as it was ss,
that the debt, contracted by reason of the Burmese Ns
was in amount 340,000/., it must be seen that the coot!:
bution of those persons at Calcutta, forming 00541110:
nearly of that debt, could not, be considered unikaportsbe:
even in that fabled laud of wealth. - It.was argued by
good people of Calcutta, that they enjoyed nothing in rt,,
of their contribution in this instance. .Whet ! was it notb":,
that they were protected in peace and quietness, and in °J.'
enjoyment of unrestricted commerce with the natives, airy
other presidencies throughout that vast country?
was the wealth, in fact, that these parties now complaillit
ing had acquired under the present regime, that akele4
three years since, six opulent mercantile houses n°l ,
together, and invested not less than six millions of 1.11,
pees immediately in .a speculation, connected witb ye_
we understood him) the Burmese war, frinu which theYh
rived proportionate profits. To prove also that what
been 'alleged as to the scale of duties which had been ley
being unfair, he would remind the House, that there r
scarcely any duties imposed,on imports higher than
cent., whilst in this country they were constantly from ~io
to 20/. 251. and even 83/. per cent. The article a 'P'" ,
?t on which a considerable profit accrued, was charged proP h
tionably moderately ; and even French brandy, on wt f
here we paid I9s. per gallon, was subject to only a guyn °,l
ten
6(1.--(llear, hear.)—Upon the whole, he would ai
that the people of Calcutta enjoyed under their Preseony
form of government such peace and protection, and so gr'sjin,
inestimable advantages, that they had no reason to c°
plain ; and as respected taxation, he saw so little rolseifthe
think that they ought not to be put on a footing_ with
natives, that he felt the Right Hon. and Learned Greolo
ao
had made out no case whatever; and he should ther,
1
oppose the motion fora Committee to inquire into the sabre

- Mr. TRANT opposed the motion. -
Mr. ASTELL said,' this was the case of petitioot,*
merchants of Calcutta, complaining of certain duties rue
posed upon stamps, which They considered and deaouo"
as both illegal and impolitic. The illegality hactbeeo ally
gether disproved. Whilst upon the other topiO;the inrin.",
not, as
of those dOties, he Would remind the Hon:. Member, t'l!"
the Governor and Council had actually in late•'year6l
witted several duties and taxes. • The happiness 0' '-e
people of Calcutta went hand in hand with their con,'
mercial prosperity. The question before the House w'as'
might have been conjectured from the Course. t";
night pursued by many, a question whether 'the Pre'e°
'node of administering the government of India should 19
changed, and another substituted, of a more pure and Pet'
feet nature, in its stead. He had anticipated that, as ova;
when the Hon. Member rose, the same tone of exaggeoti° ,
would be used, and the same-strain of invective adopgeu'
against the Government of India and the Board of Direr'
tors. He felt himself called on now, as he had !loll:
before, to repel that unwarranted attack,. The Directeci
had come in for a share of his abuse, and they bad !4°o,
charged with stifling investigation, and acting on prop,'
information, where they ought to have brought the Iree'l!;,
and accuser face to face. This imputation cf stifling ' .
vestigation was the argument . for ever in that On
Member's mouth, whenever he rose, or on whatever sol 91)
he spoke connected with India; and he verily believ.eotr
that • whatever might he the evil in the system,
that
whatever •was the subject u°",-,
the grievances experienced tinder the Government of v
country, that Hon. Member would adopt for its real 11
fi
that which he appeared to consider a panacea for
~,'
in the judicature of the country, or the reario",-1.
ills of all kinds,—narnely, the liberty of the P 11;
xivnbeftttr, it was irnpolicy in Government, f
n't:
iinagined he had found a
consideration,
dheereartsio);-,
adequacy
of a paltry duty on sugar, it seemed as if that Hon. 3fel„l'd
liberty of the press.—(llear.)—SomeLow ,""
panacea for all '"„,. , .
ebaecrhailnwatyhtre
other, from this discussion on stamps had originated a d'''
was
potation on colonization. It cysts' enough for flue justi6l"
tion of the Directors here to say, that few were refilset
permission to go out who had legitimate objects in view'
produce capital to give them a chance of succe",'
tune was, that too many went out who ha l.
neither capital nor character to ensure them a chance C'
aT nhdem couldi
misfortune r
filling any thing but the inside of a gaol in India. Such
too often the ease in Calcutta even at present.'
(Hear.)—What might be the consequence of withholding
from the Directors the coutroul over adventurers to thsg
country, they might not he aware ; but he was satisfied
that if it were taken away, there would one result follow.
which was--that the character of the British would suf-
fer there so much, if settlers were allowed to go out with-
out restriction, there would be au end to the political coo'
flexion bet Ween India and this country.
Mr. BROUGHAM, although he admitted there had
been considerable light thrown on some of the allegatiooe
as to grievances in the petition in the course of the debate,
still he felt, that should the question go to a division, lie
would, because he preferred that the whole subject should
be referred to a Committee, vote for the motion of hi'
Right Hon. and Learned Friend. Ile considered that they
were called on to apply themselves to a subject of this na ..
lure, however late in the Session. Se far he differed wi.t.
some Hon. Members who were of opinion the question ougb

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0.61,1
a

to be, for the present, postponed. Although it was certain
the House would have to proceed to the question of the new
Modification and arrangement of the government of India—
its government, policy,, and trade, within a few years,—
they were not, on that account, to put off until the adjust-
Merit of this great question, the arrangement of such an
important matter as that now pressed on their observation
by the petitioners. With reference to the motion of has
'light Hon. and Learned Friend, he was not disposed to
Vet an opinion ou the legality or illegality of the imposi-
tion of the duties complained of. If those duties so im-
Posed were illegal, the parties had redress elsewhere in a
court of law : if the remedy was doubtful, the question
might be made the subject of an appeal from a court of
keg competence to redress the injury complained of. It
was only in such instances, that it became the duty of
Parliament to interfere, and pass a declaratory act. If,
no it had been said by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend,
that the Act as respected the Government was illegal, cer-
tainly little less would be anticipated from the want of
clearness and conciseness in the act of the Legislature.
Clearness, sometimes brevity or conciseness, rarely if ever
constituted part of the essentials of an Act of Parliament.
The House was called on to decide to-night whether, in
the case of a petition signed by a few representing a nulli-
fier of mercantile and other pereens at Calcutta, they, the
Most accessible braach of the Legislature, would turn its back
°n, or a deaf ear to, the complaints of a large body of the
People of India? He earnestly hoped the House would not be
deprived of the assistance of those powerful authorities on
tpieetions of Indian policy who had spoken with so much
vcrifidence during this debate, when they were, at no very
distant period, to be called on to decide upon and grapple
With the greater question of the Company's charter. He
did not agree with his Hon. Friend the Member for Mon-.
ti'cse, if such really were his Hon. Friend's sentiments,
that the freedoni of the press was or could be a panacea
for every thing ; but he certainly thought it might he very
tnecessftilly used as a means of alleviating many grievances
trhereit had not previously existed.
Mr. T. P. COURTENAY said, that in speaking of
necorrences which bad happened so long as 16 years ago,
it became him to be diffident ; but as well as he could re-
collect, the clause which was then introduced gave a power
to the- Goveroor-General in Council to levy taxes and
"Wee of customs, subject to the control of the Directors
lit home. That was the full amount of the power then
Mated. His Hon. and Learned Friend had stated that a
doubt was raised as to the difficulty of throwing open the
trade ivith India; but he (Mr. Courteuay) could say that
such was not the feeling entertained by him, or by the
government with which he was connected.
Mr. R. -GRANT said, that on the policy of that parti-
cular law, on its justice, and on the details respecting the
tax, as well as the other topics connected with it, such as
the introduction of a free press, he did riot feel himself
;ailed upon to give any opinion whatsoever. He had never
heard any petition more clear in the sntement of fact,
More distinct in its premises, or more obvious in its con-
clusion, than that upon which his Hon. and Learned
Friend had rested his comprehensive statements. The
Premises were these, that this tax and all others of the
same nature were illegal and impolitic, and the concluding
h'''aYer of the petition was, that they should pass a declare-
ry law pronouncing the tax illegal and impolitic ; and
Melling else would satisfy the 'petitioners. His Hon. and
Learned Friend had maintained that the petition should be
referred to a Committee ; but he would say, that if the pe-
titioners were right, the appointment of a COmmittee would
"e an evasion, not an acknowledgment of their claims. If
the tax was illegal, as they had said, a declaratory law was
;necessary : if its legality was doubtful, a Committee
t'f the House of Commons wax not the tribunal to decide
the
for question of law. If it was legal, there was no reason
• referring it to a Committee: if it was illegal, there
was still less.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH would not abuse his privilege
of
reply by trespassing on their time at any length. Every
Z,ll, must have heard with satisfaction the speech of the
'''Oble.Lord (Ashley) who had for the first time that night
eased the House at any length,' and who had mani-
ftted an acquaintance with our dominion in India, such
43 indicated a capacity to serve his country in the situation
t° which lie was naturally called.—(Hear, hear.)—He
(84 J. Mackintosh) had heard the greater part of the de-
bate.,with satisfaction, though it did not accotd precisely
with the prayer of the petition. He had heard with satin-
*lion the avowal. of more liberal doctrines than lie was
4censtomed to with respect to the government of India.—
Ptlear, bear.)---It gave him pleasure to hear the possibi-
y admitted of introducing the liberty of the press into
adin under certain modifications. Upon the whole, he
rejoiced at the acknowledgment of o?iuions by those
*km* influence afforded the best pledge for their adoption—
°Pinions which must lead to the establishment of a wise
p%peal of governMent for India. He had already ex-
:lied the pleasure which he felt at the suggestion of an
ft 'Nit'', relative to the policy of admitting the English
h into-India. If that inquiry was instituted at au early
'l"etiod of the ensuing session, it would be attended with
.4°re advantage than any thing that could now be in.
h'i'afted on the petition. If he might expect that such a
r°Poeition would be received without much opposition,
Would willingly withdraw his present motion, giving
laeriee, at the same time, that he would move for such
r.„ inquiry at an early period of the next Session.—
"nor, hear.)

a to 11

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was 41,

BRITISH SHIPPING.
ti,neral GASCOYNE wished to call tLe attention of
e House to what the real nature of his motion was, be-
•tt(lo it had been much misunderstood, both in that House
IL out of it. With that view he must begin to state what
117 battire of it was not. It was not a general inquiry
~,to the state of trade ; nor did he mean to argue it as a
'ntercial question, but as an abstract naval question. He
hNI(' do so, not because he thought that those whose
,11,4 he advocated last year were les= deserving of relief,
`
became having failed,.last year, he would rot presume
"ring forward the same question so soon after being de-
N.W. He was confident that the distress of these inte-
Ct'l which he had then advocated was us great now as
1,'4, and that if there was any difference at present, it
13/4 that their distress was greater than before.—(A
ttlith.)—The principal argument against him was, that
eN had been a redundancy of shipping, which led to
Jt speculation, and the speculation to great distress.
HBe were at least the arguments which bad most effect.
411; if he could prove to-night that such redundancy did
ft,rt oxist, he believed it would be admitted that the in-
it tufts drawn from that redundancy must be abandoned.
would now treat the subject as an abstract naval ques-
,ta4) abstaining as much as possible from the commercial
LtitiPn Which he had brought forward last year; and the
tit consideration that presented itself was, whether the
pping of this country had or had not increased. • In all
)letiler periods the employment of ships and shipping had
:eau 'd after war. Looking back to the period of 1763,
coinhe he found that there was no instance in
(1.--a
„any of the intermediate wars, up to the period
be last war, in which, taking an average of five years
4kt'ach, the shipping had not annually increased after the
But that had unfortunately ceased to be the case
141' the late war. He would prove, that on the contrary
,etoploent of shipping and men had annally di-
yt'othed,ym and that not gradually, except for theu first few
tk;(4,, • In the year ending the sth of January, 1827, the
"Ilis were—
Ships and Shipping. Tonnage. seamen.
2a,564 2,078,400 178,000
It*2 22,109 2,050,514 166,333
4t 4 diminution, in the ten years of peace, of
Ships and Shipping. Tonnage. Seamen.
t
2,664 324,440 27,000
'l44in g that time it was to be observed, that there had
t 4 considerable increase in the imports and exports to
ittl:',llount of 8,000,0001. or 9,000,000/., as compared
0 the preceding year. What he next wished to impress
kt 4 the attention of the house was, a comparison of the
1111,1,P) years, taking in the whole of the British empire,
the colonies. Ia the year ending January, Ib;27,,retur Ile were—

Al•to • per,
lutics
ienoun''
bees alto-
imiv"
bet, that

1, likei Ships and Shipping• Tounag, Seamen.
107,1335
21,025 2,655,000
151,115
kit:?tat*lnent23l:ererred to the 5011
enßaviaitliSchistaembriistile_,
14,11 that which formed the as
Ras diminished in the reverse proportion to the in-
'YNee4t I'l
414 4 her trade. It had been said on a former -
"*"„
144,', that if the interests of commerce and navigation
Nri happen to clash, there was,. no doubt but that the
thttNoee should be given to navigation, as it was upon
54. ‘.ittr existence as a naval power am I retention of
lNtt4onies must depend. He would next call the a.tten-
rkt :f the House to the statement in the returns as it MI
tot
''
lII' U • -a lKingdom Of Great Britain and Ireland,
ill"'oetlin tglittleie cohotlies. This
.statement was as follows
Seamen.
Ships and Shipping.
if 1826 20,40 a 149,894
130,491
*di4 427 10'035 because there was always
Pro not mention the tonnage,
114 Portion observed in these accounts between the ten-
Re k
‘it'i tor►d the seamen; so that having the one, the other_rom
14 tl'' be directly inferred from it. It appeared I.
)'la''r:"e statement, that there was in the last of these
lie 1,4 4itnintion. of 1,434 ships and 19,400 seamen
414 "t." 1" that be should be told to look at the note under
',1n4'144,4111ent, which stated that many of the vessels that
#sot 1 '-'1 on the list had long ceased to be i❑ existence ntlti'etl;'
c,,,,p'! Would ask, when the ship was broken up I .
to 4t} the men overboard? The argument of 1827 waS,
t • ',t great quantity of shipl,ing 113:1 led to .peculation ;
liillati:;:so trots stated as a 1,0,t, that the number of ships
Ereat as had bleu relied on iu that argument.

had
egation4
debate,
,ion, be
should
of hid
lot they
this na
svi
a ougb‘

crease of shipping up to 1528. That might he, but it
was well known.that many ships were employed which
were not profitably. employed. Instead of looking at the
number of vessels employed, a. better criterion of the state
of our trade would he, to see what was the situation of the
building trade, and bow far the number of vessels built
was on the increase or decline—how far steps avers taken
to supply the places of those going to 'decay. Now what
was the state of ship-building.in the last-three years? ln
1826, the number was 1,5119 ; in 1827, 1,790 ; and in
1828, -1,285, being a falling off of 61,279 tens in the
amouth of shipping. It also appeared that in 1825 the
total number of vessels registered in Great Britain, exclusive
of Ireland, was 22,783 ; in 1826, it was 26,234 ; and in
1827 the number amounted to 21,799. Here was an ap..
parent diminution, and in Ireland, where maritime aff►irs
were on so small a scale comparatively, there was likewise
a considerable falling off during the last year. In reference
to the present subject he might advert to what had been
said upon the corn question with respect to a protection, as
the same principle was in his opinion applicable to either.
They bad inquired at what price the corn growers. would
be able to produce their corn. Now, he would never con-
sent to admit that one class of the community was entitled
to a protection which would be denied to another......
(Hear.) In such an inquiry they ought particularly to
guard against being led away by looking to the number of
vessels employed, while the number built was not taken into
their calculation. Those who had a property in the vessels
employed it was notorious were losing money every day.__
He was aware that this question had been last year brought
before the House under very disadvantageous circum-
stances, as it was imprudently mixed up with poli-
tical considerations. Certain misguided and ill-judging
friends of the measure had thought proper to throw
out insinuations against a Right Honourable Gentle-
man on the other side of the House, which the ship-
owners themselves were very far from imputing to him.
The very utmost that the respectable portion of that body.
had ever attributed to the Right Hon. Member was a mis-
take of judgment. Thus far doing him justice, he would
tell the House not to suffer themselves to be carried away
by his eloquence, when he sought to prevail on them to
refuse a consideration to such a subject. As he had
already hinted, Government were but too prone to turn a
willing ear to applications- from other quarters, although
they did not shew the same favour in this instance. Dur-
ing the present Session they had pronounced that there-was
no sufficient ground for inquiry respecting the wool trade,
and yet they granted one notwithstanding their declara-
tion. This they did, hoping to satisfy the landed inte-
rest, but the landed interest would never be satisfied.—
(Laughter.)—lf the resolution should not I:e acceded to
now, it was to be expected that they would assuredly, in
the course of the next Session, appoint a Committee of
Inquiry. He must ever deprecate the bad policy of
the reciprocity system on which they had hitherto acted.
During the discussion he had heard much from the Hon.
Member for Dover, in the way of argument, that excited
Iris surprise, but there was only a single assertion made use
of on that occasion to which he was now inclined to advert.
It bad been said that a vessel for British service could be
built as cheaply in England as abroad. This he most dis-
tinctly denied. In support of his opinion, he should merely
mention a single isolated fact, which, if true, would amply
bear him out in the assertion. He had lately seen a letter
mentioning• that an oak-built vessel had beets launched at
the port of Dantaic, on May 22, which only cost at the
rate of 31. per ton. The northern built vessels were also
got up at one-third less than the expence of ours. In such
a competition, therefore, it appeared likely that this coun-
try, to use a familiar expression, would be brought to the
wall. There was also a singular anomaly in the system
which he could not refrain from taking notice of. Al-
though it put a prohibition on the employment of foreign
seamen in navigating our vessels, it at the same time ad-
mitted foreign vessels to compete, with us at home. The
ill edicts of this policy he apprehended that they would
find it very difficult to repair. Was it not evident, even to
demonstration, that foreign ships coming into our ports
must pro tanto displace so much of the British shipping
interest, and consequently injure so much British capital ?
It was neither ingenuous nor just to lay hold of the Scar-
borough petition, which happened to be erroneous in its
details, and a few other statements a little exaggerated, as
specimens of the representations made by the body in ge-
neral from whence they came.
Mr. C. GRANT remarked, that this was the first time
that he had ever heard a regular speech in reply to a De-
bate that had taken place twelve months since—_(Laughter)
—it had also afforded him some surprise to hear from the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtenay), that it was the
intention of Government to establish a full examination
into the question during the recess ; but whatever satisfac-
tion this might give to the Gallant Mover of the proposi-
tion, he felt convinced that the Government would not
consent to any alteration. The present policy was cer-
tainly united with the name of his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Huskisson); but he could not admit that it remained
for Government to pursue an opposite course, when-he
recollected that all his Right Hon. Friend's operations had
taken place under the sanction of almost all of the present
Members of the Cabinet ever since its commencement;
nor had any policy ever been more examined into, dis-
cussed, and sanctioned . by that House—(clear)—and
therefore, though he was glad that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Courtenay), and those other Gentlemen,
whose innocent minds were blank sheets of paper—
(Laughter and continued cheers)—though he was happy
that these simple-hearted persons—(Cheers)—intended to
examine the subject, in order that they might have a great
field for consideratieu through the summer, he could not
but feel sure that the examination would end, as it ought
to do, in a confirmation of the principles of his Right Hon.
Friend.—(Hear, hear.)—Thinking, therefore, as he did,
that this policy had already received the sanction of the
Government, and of the House, he did not feel that he
was now called upon to enter into the general principles of
the question ; and, indeed, he should he doing an injustice
to that policy were he on the present occasion to enter
into a discussion on those principles. He should, there-
fore, simply confine himself to the question that was now
before the House; and he would confess that it appeared
to him, from the shape of the present motion, that it was
a renewal of those efforts which had so often been made to
persuade the House that his Right Hon. Friend had failed
in his project ; and he must confess, that notwithstanding
this was' the evening of wonders, he had never heard a
more extraordinary proposition. He, for one, was at a
bee to conceive how that House had been istnting in de-
ference to the ship-owners ; for, although the House had
not adopted what the ship-owners happened to think the
most expedient, he did not see that that was any reason
for saying that they had not been treated with a proper
deference, or that they were crumbling into dust, to the
entire overthrow of the British navy. Nor was it the
least extraordinary part of the matter, that although
all this mischief was existing, the Honourable Gentle-
man (Mr. Robinson) was quite content to wait till
the next Session of Parliament before any thing was
done, though, to be sure, it was perfectly consistent
with a speech that was such a triumphant answer to
what had taken place last year.--(A laugh.)—But
what, after all, was the case that bad been made out by
the Gallant General ? It appeared from the Accounts on
the Table, that the number of the registered vessels was
diminished ; and, according to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, this was to he a subject of inquiry in the Cabinet;
but if the Gallant General would only take the trouble to
look to the foot of that Account, he would find the expla-
nation he wished to have.—(Hear, hear.)—Supposing,
after all, that this Committee was granted, what would it
have to report next session, even though the Gallant Gene-
ral himself should bring it in.—(A laugh.)—lt would be,
" This Committee does report that according to the Regis.
try Act, requiring the ships to be enteredde novo, there
has been a visible diminution in the amount of tonnage."
But though this might be apparent, he denied that it washy
any moons certain that there was a real decrease.—(Hear,
hear;)—and, besides, it was perfectly consistent that there
should be an apparent decrease, while the fact might be
that there was a real increase.—(Hear, hear.)—The ques-
tion then was, whether, having last year considered the
subject, and having decided that it was not a fit one for the
appointment of the Committee, there was any thing new
in the state of the question to justify such a measure ?
He
thought that there certainly was not. He thought that
they were very far from having any just ground of alarm
for the state of British Navigation or the Maritime interest.
But before he adverted to some of the conclusions which
had been arrived at by the Hon. Gentleman, be would
allude to the reason why there might not lie an apparent
dirninutiou in the quantity of shipping, without its involv-
ing any real diminution. The Registry Act of the 26th of
George 111., was, that under which British ships were
registered. By the 6th of George IV., it was enacted
that no register was of any avail unless it was made either
under the 4th or the 6th of George IV. There was no
danger of any censure attaching to the department to which
this registering belonged, because he knew that .the office
was discharged in a most efficient manner; but at the same
time, it was well known that no Registry Act could !nest
all the fluctuations of the maritime commerce of this great
country ; this registry, therefore, was not to be depended
on, except so far as it applied to the same men that had
been entered. But if there could be no censure attached
to the department itself, neither could there, in his opinion,
he any attached to his Right lion. Friend ; and, after all,
what was it that made this diminution apparent ? Surely not
the sagacity or discovery of any Hop. Member of that

But he would ask why, if the number of ships had in-
creased, was the number of men diminished ? They had
always multiplied at the rate of six men to 100 tons, and
they still took their statement on the old criterion. But
he would maintain; that there were not five men to 100
tons, and that upon the whole estimate there was a loss of
upwards of 40,000 men. He would stow that now there
was not in general snore than four men to 100 tons, and
never more than five. The statements therefore upon .
which Government had gone must be incorrect; and
if no other good resulted from his motion, that good
would attend it at al! events. The error of the statement
would appear distinctly en referring to the Sixpenny Duty
Office. Every seaman employed, whether an apprentice
or not, was obliged to pay 6d. a month towards the
support of Greenwich Hospital. Upon the arrival of any
vessel in port, the captain was obliged to deliver up-
on oath a list of the crew, speed-yule; the length of time that
each had served. -He knew of no better criterion than this
for those who collected the duty so well, as lie believed
that :it was regularly and fairly collected. Why, then,
should they not adopt that best criterion, instead of multi-
plying at the rate of six to 100 tons? During war, ves-
sels were compelled to observe the proportion of six and
sometimes seven to 100 ; but now it appeared from the
Six-penny Duty Office, that they had only collected from
115,274 men. The calculation was, that every seaman,
on an average, was employed eight months in the year,
and paid 4s. duty; but it appeared from the return that
there was a reduction of 1,1001. or 1,2001. in the last
year as compared with the former. Looking at all the
accounts, it will he found that there was a diminution of
from 30,000 to 40,000 seamen since the war. It would
be unfair to include in the number of shipping cleared out
of some of our ports, some of the steam-vessels, in parti-
cular, which he had ascertained made 25 or 30 voyages in
the year: so that if the amonnt of the tonnage of each,
was multiplied by time number of voyages, it-would swell
the amount of tonnage in the general account to B,OOG or
9,000 tons for each vessel. He did not look at the diminu-
tion of our shipping—what he wished particularly to call the
attention of the House to was, the diminution of the number
o f men. It was a matter worthy of serious consideration,
that while our shipping trade to the East Indies, and the
trade of the Colonies was increasing, our shipping trade
was rapidly declining. There were employed in our colo-
nial shipping trade 23,000 seamen, wise never came to this
country, and who could not be available for the service of
the Royal Navy in case of emergency. He knew that in
his view of time decrease of British shipping, he should be
met, first by the mention of the vote of the registrar, of ship-
ping—thst many of the ships included in the list were not
in existence—but whether they were so at the date of that
list was not of consequence to his argument—whether they
had ceased to be hated in 1824 or in 1825 was immaterial,
it was still a diminution since the war. Now this dimi-
nution would be more observable if we looked at the state
of our shipping engaged in the trade with America, and
the shipping of that country engaged in time trade with us.
In the year 1816, just after the war, America had only
91,000 tons of shipping eng■aged in her intercourse
with this country. In 1826 it bad increased to
185,000. In 1816 our shipping engaged in the Ame-
rican trade amounted to 45,000 tons. In 1826, it was
reduced to 37,000 tons, being a diminution of 7,000,
while, in the same time, the shipping of America had
more than doubled. This was an important fact, and
deserved serious attention, for there was little doubt, that if
there should be a general war, America would be pitted
against us. The calculations upon which he went were from
v..ryaecurate sources. They were those of last year and from
Liverpool, but as nearly four-fifths, or five-sixths, of the
whole American trade came to Liverpool, the statement of
the remainder made little difference in the general calcula-
tion. If they looked to the difference in the .number of
men emplOyed, it would be found that there bad been 1111
increase in the number of seamen employed by Ame-
rica, of 16,200, while there had been a diminution in
those employed in the shipping trade of the united kingdom
of 16,400. Thus, whatever was the state of the trade
with the colonies and foreign countries, he found a most
alarming diminution in the nu►Nber of men in the shipping
trade in the united kingdom ; and whatever might
he said, it was a fact, that that which was the basis
of our naval power was gradually crumbling and di-
minishing. It was a fact which could not be denied,
that considerable numbers of our men were employed
in the shipping of America. Ile had not the means
of knowing the exact numbers, hut he thought it was
not too much to state then► at 20,000. The reason of
this preference among our men for the American service
was, that the Americans gave much better wages. In fact, the
great losses sustained in the carrying trade by some of our
ship-owners were such, that they were obliged to diminish
all their expenses, and wages amongst the number, to the
lowest possible scale. The numbers as well as the wages
of the crew were diminished, and one effect was, that
none but able seamen were employed, so that not one in
ten were employed, and there were very few apprentices,
so that no provision was made for any exigency which
our navy might require from time to time. Ile would
not trouble the House with going further into the subject
at present, but conclude with a motion, stating the facts
to which hehad adverted, and pledging the House to an in-
quiry the next Session. The Hon. Member then moved,
" That it appears by the navigation statements, contained
in the Annual Finance of the present year, 1828, now
upon the table, that there was registered for the British
empire—

ships or Vessels. Tonnage. Seamen,
1826 ,24,625 2,635,444 167,635
1827 - 23,195 2,460,500 151,415

Diminution of 1,430 175,144 16,221
" Also that it appears by the same Finance Account, that
in 1826, for the British United Kingdom, there Ivere—
Ships or Vessels. TOlMage. Sealneci.
20,469 . - 9,382,069 149,89 k
1927 19,035 9,150,464 130,491
Being a Diminution in the Trade of the United Kingdom of
1,434 22!,464 19,400
" That this House will, early in the next Session of
Parliament, proceed to inquire into the causes of this ap-
parent diminution of ships, tonnage, and men, in the com-
mercial navy of this country."

Mr. T. P. COURTENAY considered the present period
was too late in the session to enter upon the subject with
the hope of any practical result. It was the intention of
his Right Hon. Colleague and himself to go into a full
consideration of the subject in the recess, and to take a re-
view of, and to make up their minds on, the whole system
of our trade and navigation, our commercial and colonial
policy, as if they had- never before given an opinion on
them, and that their minds were ut present as respected
them a sheet of blank paper. If he were to enter into any
controversy on the question at present, it would, he con-
ceived, interfere with that dispassionate view of the subject
which it was their intention to take, and therefore, instead
of going now into a discussion, he would move the previous
question. The Gallant General had made out no case
which would warrant the House in agreeing to the resolution
before them. The Hon. and Gallant General had given
them a comparison of the number of British ships in
1826 and 1807, to show a diminution, but he had not
taken into his consideration the rate of the registrar,
which stated, that many of those struck out had been so
struck off because they were not in existence.
General GASCOYNE—But that does not affect the
diminution in the number of seamen.
Mr. COURTENAY did not know what the Hon. and
Gallant General would have. The number of seamen was
sufficiently great for all the purposes of our navy, and for
any exigencies that might be required. We had at the
present moment twice the number of Commercial seamen
which we had before the victory gained by Lord
Howe : and there was no doubt, that if occasion required,
we should find no difficulty iu obtaining all the force that
could be required. The Gallant General, in his view of
our shipping forgot to tell the House, that the number of
British vessels entering and leaving our ports in 1827 was
greater than for some years past ; that the number of ships
engaged in the British and foreign trade was greater in
1827 than in the preceding year. It could. also be stated
that a greater number of British ships passed the Sound in
the present than in sonic years before, and that there were
a greater number employed in the timber-trade.—in short,
it could be proved that no year was snore favourable to our
shipping than that of 1827. Under these circumstances,
and as there were many Members who were anxious to
deliver their opinions, who were infinitely better qualified
to speak on the subject, he would not trespass farther on
the HOtist., but would conclude by moving " the previous
question."
Arr. ROBINSON contended that the Honse was bound
to entertain the motion. After the treatment which the
ship-owners had received last year—treatment such as no
other body of men who approached that House had ever
received—it was too much on the present occasion to say,
that there was now no ground whatever fur receiving the
motion before them. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had
told them that he and his colleague, the President of the
Board of Trade, would give the subject their best attention
in the recess, and would inquire whether the statement
made was founded on fact. He was glad to hear this as
far as it went, lint it should be recollected that these were
the assertions of men is office, who might not be in office
next year.—(Laughter.)—He would appeal to the expe-
rience of the mutations in the Government for the last -
18 months, whether much reliance could be pliced the
declaration of a ntinitler in one session, that lie w,hold
t tke a certain cour,e in the next.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
'f he Right Hou, Cientlerfwi said, that here was an in-

House, but that vary Act of Parliament which had been
introduced by his Right Hon. Friend hiroself.—(Hear.)—
But although this registry was made de novo, it was, after
All, fallacious to a certain degree, because it was found im-
possible to rectify the register in sufficient time to make
the proper return; hereafter, however, inquiries at the
close of every three years were to be sent round to all the
ports requiring returns ; and the consequence would be,
that they would have.a. least at triennial obituary of the nen
employed in British shipping. It was true that his
Right Hon: Friend last year, had rested hii arguments
on the inaccuracies that had crept into the statements
about British navigation ; but he had- not so much as
Made an' allusion to' the number of registered vessels on
which, the Gallant -General had founded to much of his
argument. His Right Hon. Friend had proceeded entirely
on other criteria; the real criterion of the question was,
what was the actual employment Of the' ships? So that
even if they had an accurate account of the number of
ships, it would still be fallacious; for they would not be
able to tell how far they were .employed, or whether one-
half or two-thirds of them were lying idle in dock. Ano-
ther object that they ought to have in view was, to ascer-
tain the activity of their commerce, and its degree of com-
petition with foreign commerce. Now, proceeding on the
Gallant General's own statement, it would appear, that of
British ships which had come in from foreign ports, the
tonnage in 1825, was 2,143,000; in 1826, 1,950,000;
and in 1827, 2,086,000: while the tonnage of foreign
ships under the same circumstances, was, in 1826, 694,000,
and in 1827, 751,000. But above all things, the Gal-
lant General appears to have been struck with the dimi-
nution of the human race.—(A laugh.)
General GAKOYNE observed, that he had referred
to the employMent of the seamen.

of British ships engaged in the trade of London MA
607,000 ; in 1825, 768,000 • in 1826, 67b,000 ; and
in 1827, 769,000 ; and . re' "csels was 3,389
in 1825, and about 4,000 it 1 a large in-
crease in last year over the great trading year of 1825.
(Hear.)—There had likewise been an increase of the vie.
nage of foreign vessels engaged in the London trade, but
not to the same amount. In the year 1824 the tonnage
of foreign ships trading to the port of London was 264,000 ;
in 1825, 300,000 ; in 1826, 215,000 ; and in • 1827,
291,000 ; so that though there was an increase upon both
1824 and 1826, there was a decrease upon 1825. The
tonnage of vessels from the Hans Towns was the next sub-
ject he should allude to, and he should do so because it
was said our errors with regard to free trade had thrown
most overwhelming advantages into their hands at the
expence of this country. In the year 1825, the tonnage of
their ships trading to this country was 44,000; in 1826,
29,000; and in 1827, 22,000; so much for the truth of
that complaint, which had been directed with such force
against his Right Hon. Friend. The same remark might
be made with respect to the tonnage of the ships from
Prussia into this country, which in 1825 amounted to
176,000; iu 1826, to 112,000; and in 1827, to 106,000.
The number of ships of all nations that had passed the
sound in 1826 was 11,000; and that number increased in
1227 to 13,000 ; but of that increase the proportion of
the increase on British ships was 37 per cent., while that
of foreigners was only 8 per cent.—(Cheers.)—He asked
whether, under these circumstances, England was to fear
the competition of other nations—whether her commerce
was in jeopardy from their efforts, when they saw that not-
withstanding all the disadvantages under which this country
laboured, the tonnage in her trading increased beyond that
of any other nation, even when their's increased, but also
increased when at the same time their's had diminished—
(Cheers.)—When our home trade required eight millions
of tonnage, and our foreign commerce also a large tonnage,
was it for this country to require apparently favourable re-
strictions, which experience would ultimately prove to be
injurious.--(Hear, hear.)—..The more the subject was
examined, the more he was convinced it would be found that
the result was such as all of. them must wish to find it to
be. It would prove that kindness and generosity were not
only not injurious to our particular interests, but were the
best sources of our commercial and national welfare. (Hear.)
Mr. LIDDEL would not follow the example of the
Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, by enter-
ing upon the very intricate and difficult calculations which
be had brought forward in his speech. The Hon, Mem-
ber concluded same further observations, by suppotking the
motion. He earnestly hoped that some means might be
devised to restore the shipping interests to their pristine
situation :—they had been rectumd to their lowest level,
and exposed to a most unfair and ruinous foreign competi-
tion. He conjured the Government to look before it was
too late, to the condition of this large and now helples.
class of his Majesty's subjects.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON denied the expressions
attributed to him by the Hon. Member for Worcester.
(Mr. Robinson). What he had on a former occasion said,
was, net that British ships could he built, but that they
could be sailed in competition with foreign shipping. This
arose from their greater durability, their cheaper insurance,
and the other palpable advantages known to belong to
them. As a proof of this superiority, he need only refer to
the report of the Committee on Foreign Trade. Now,
how did the fact stand as to the comparative business of the
British and foreign shipping in the general trade of this
country? There had been, as the return of British ship-
ping showed, an increase between 1824 and 1827, of
556,000 tons, and of 34,466 men, and a decrease of the
foreign to the extent of 7,748 tons, and of 1,410 men.
And this comparative increase in favour of this country,
was observable in the first year of the operation of the new
measures, which were said to have inflicted so much evil.
There bad been at the same time a great increase of ship-
building in the colonies; still be denied in toto the peculiar'
depression upon which so much stress had been attempted
to he laid. He admitted, indeed, that the profits in the
shipping trade were much reduced, but he denied that the
reduction was in a greater proportion than that of the
other branches of general trade. Let any body look at the
list of comparative prices, and this would be obvious. In
1825, the price of Jamaica coffee was 915., at present it
was '7ls. During the same period cotton (an article of
great consumption) had fallen from Is. 61d. to 74d., to-
bacco from 3,1 d. to 2h-d., olive oil from 545. to 435., Bri-
tish iron, per ton, from 151. to Si. 17s. 6d., lead from
29/. 10s. to 18/., tin from 101 s. to 765., hemp from 431.
to 381., I)autaic timber from 51. Ms. to 41. 155., so that
the diminution in the price of shipping had not sunk below
its relative proportion. With respect to freights, he found
that in 1825, when the highest price was held out owing
to the chance if a short supply of all the commodities of
the country, and a desire to speculate in obtaining the re-
quisite substitute, the regular freight for clean hemp from
the Baltic was 60s. a ton, at present it was 455. ; of tallow
it had fallen from 40s. to 285., thus preserving the same
proportion to the level of other articles. If the shipping then
had not sunk, as had been asserted, but increased,—if the
coasting trade gave employment to 9,000,000 of tons,— if the
fisheries employed 40,000—the colonial 822,000 tons—
the foreign trade 2,860,000—if, in fact, the general
em-
ployment of British shipping was 11,948,000 tons, how
could such a comparatively trifling competition as 75,000
foreign tonnage be said so to have affected them. Then
the Hon. Member had said, that the ship-owners were pe-
culiarly entitled to relief, from the meekness with which
they hail borne their depression, and the utter absence of
all reproach against the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Hos-
kisson) whose measures were said to have wrought this
painful change. What? was the payment last year of
2tlol. from that body for a pamphlet, which did not con-
tain one half so much argument as it did abuse, no reproach
of the Right Hon. Gentrenian ? Was the exhibition the
other day in the metropolis, of a sort of general hoisting of
flags, at the Right Hon. Gentleman's resignation, which,
though felt as a source of joy by them, was yet a cause of
deep and profound regret by every well-wisher of his country.;
were these demonstrations nothing? He could not indeed
treat with sufficient contempt the authors of these attempts
at triumph, or with sufficient pity the blind and deluded
interests that were made use of on that occasion ? For
what were these hired libels--for what was this flag hoist-
, ins ? A: poor boatman, when he (Mr. Thomson) put the
question to him, simply replied—" Because of a gemman
going out who won't let us live."—(A latigh.);—This was
indeed in the style and tone of the poet's description of the
treatment of Sejanus---
CProenteatdu°mmqiuLerbotrovie,na,u;cseiniaenaupistdoulicaitmuargunnucton
Spectandus : gaudent manes: qua.? labra ?. quis 1111
Vultus erat ? nunquam, si quid milli crest's, amavi
Hune hmainem sed quo cecidit sub crimine? quisnam
" Delator? quibus indiciis ? quo teste probavit ?
He might, with the same adherence to truth, finish the
quotation—
, " Nil horum, verbosa et grandis epistola venit
" A Capreis.
(Hear.) In justification of the opinions which he had
stated to the House, he could quote the authority of
Mr. Lyall, a gentleman long at the bead of the shipping
interests, and whose name carried with it 'great weight
upon such a subject as this. The Hon. Gentleman depre-
cated the idea, if any such were entertained by the persons
now connected with the Board of Trade, of entering anew
into the details of this question, and sifting those facts which
bad been already so ably sifted and investigated by the
great minds of the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool, and
Isis Right Hon., Friend the late President of the Board of
Trade. To commence such an enquiry de novo would
lead to the greatest confusion and mischief.
Mr. ROBINSON explained. He could assure the
Hon. Member for Dover, that he (Mr. Robinson) had no-
thing whatever to do with the hoisting of the flags in the
ships on the occasion alluded to. He viewed that pro-
ceeding' as every honest man must have viewed it, with
Complete disgust...-(Hear.)

Mr. C. GRANT continued—That was the very argu-
ment that he'wes coming te--(a laugh) :—the Gallant Ge-
neral's object appeared to be, that more men should be
employed than were necessary to do the work.—(hear,
bear, and a laugh)—seeking, as it were, to multiply the
men, in order to, make a proportional increase in the
number of superfluous workmen._(A laugh.)—A com-
plaint had been made, that the number of men employed
in our shipping had diminished, while that of persons em-
ployed in foreign shipping had increased. He would now
make a statement that "would not only show that complaint
to be unfounded, but that would actually prove that
there had :been an increase in both ; and that it was
greater in favour of this country than of other nations.
In the year 1825, the total number of men employed
amounted. to 228,500; in 1826, to 224,600; but in
1827, that number had increased to 237,400, being an in-
crease at the end of the third year over the first of 89,000
wen in employment ; or an increase in 1827 over the preced-
ing year, of 12,800. In the same three years the number
of foreigners employed amounted to 42,700, to 39,900, and
to 43,500, which gave an increase in the whole of the
three years, of 3,600. Surely it was enough to leave
the complaint he had referred to, with no other answer
than that which that statement afforded.—(Cheers.)—He
admitted that the Shipping Interest was in a state of de-
pression, but that depression did not arise from a want of
employment_for there was abundance of employment—
but from the want of a power to derive a profit from it.
The truth was, the profits of the trade at present were
very low, and he was not surprised that men who in 1825
were making such large profits should now complain, when
those profits were so much reduced. But lie should be
glad to know whether that depression was not equally felt
by all other classes of society ; or whether the Shipping
Interest meant to say that they were the only suffeiers in
the country ? But as soon as it was ascertained that a
particular class suffered distress, was the next step to be
that of calling on the Legislature to interpose, not only
to secure them employment but to give them increased
profits ?---(Hear, hear.)—ln looking at the vast extent of
our trade and navigation, it was not surprising that there
should be at certain times, between one year and another,
a great reduction in its amount; but the matter of sur-
prise was, that with as many different causes likely to af-
fect its prosperity, it should yet remain so prosperous.—
(flear.)—The House ought to look at the whole of the
vast machine, and not at any one particular portion of
it ; and if on the whole they saw there was a fa-
vourable increase of its activity, its power, and its
productiveness, they should be satisfied. His Right
Honourable Friend had last year presented a statement
of the amount of tonnage of vessels that had cleared in-
wards in this country from the year 1814 to that of /827,
both inclusive; and the numbers appeared to be as fol-
low :—ln 1814, the amount was 1,846,000; in 1825,
2,796,000 ; in 1826, 2,478,000 ; and to that account he
should add that for the year 1827, in which the number
was 2,777,000 ; shewiug as increase not only upon the
tonnage in 1827, but upon that of 1825, which was the
year when every kind of trade received so powerful an im-
pulse. In the same time there had been an increase in the
foreign tonnage in the three last years entered inwards in
this country. In 1825, the tonnage of foreign vessels en-
tered inwards amounted to 892,000 ; in 1826, 643,000;
and in 1827, 715,000. There was, therefore, in 1827,
au increase of 72,000 over the previous year ; but ba that
account Ireland was included as a foreign country. In the
next account Ireland was excluded, and there the result
was the same. He confessed he felt, on comparison of
these circumstances, a strong feeling of gratification. He
could not regard foreign commerce to this country but as
an accession to our general trade. Every vessel which en-
tered the harbours of this country contributed to our peace-
ful resources, and went to extend our trade and naviga-
tion. In the course of last year some accounts had been
laid before the House of the state of the British tonnage,
founded on averages of years, his Right Hon. Friend
having beeu accused of having taken his accounts only
on statements of single years. The averages had been
taken in the years from 1814 to 1823 both inclusive,
from 1824 to 1826 inclusive, and with these accounts
he world compare those of foreign tonnage in 1826,
and he should add to them the amount in 1827. The
average of the tonnage of British vessels entered in the
ports of the United Kingdom in the ten years from 1814
to 1823 was, in the first instance, 1,517,000, and in the
next 2,086,000, giving an increase of 570,000 tons in
11 those years. The increase in the amount of foreign ton-
nagee during the same time was 200,000 tons, leaving an
excess of 370,000 tons in favour of British shipping.—
, Taking the next average, the result was, that the increase
811e,83126r71-: ii
t was
of British shipping was 478,900 tons; that of foreign
shipping was 212,000, leaving an excess in favour of the
British of 266,900 tons. The whole of the tonnage of
British and Foreign shipping, exclusively of the Colonial
ships, entered inwards, in 1825, was 1,171,000 tons ; in
1826 it sunk to 934,600 tons ; but in 1827 it rose to
1,2h2,800 tons : so that the amount appeared considerably
to have increased beyond that of the speculative and trading
year 1825. While; on the other baud, there had been in
the amount of the tonnage of Foreign vessels entered in-
wards here, during the same years, a regular diminution.
He was ready to acknowledge that the tonnage employed in
the Canada trade had diminished from 427,000 tons, in
1826, to 339,000 tons in 1827. He could only say, he
wondered, considering all the circumstances of that trade,
that the diminution had not been still greater. It was
important to advert to that point, because it was the
unsound part of our system, and he could not but
think that it was ungracious on the part of the
shipping interest to put forward that as a portion of
their complaint, when that reduction of the trade must
be referred in a great measure to the relative duties on the
Canada and Baltic produce. The Committee of 1821 had
stated, with regard to the competition of those duties, that
~ the interest of the shipowners was most concerned on
the present question, while that of the Colonies themselves
was much subordinate to it." They added, " Your Com-
mittee fully concur with those who think that policy ree
quires British shipping should be the favourite object of at-
tention, but they were of opinion that other interests ought
not to be sacrificed to its support." lie quoted these opi-
nions because he thought them materially applicable on this
question, and he believed be might add, that the money '
interest to the shipowners was considerable. The differ-
ence of the duty on the timber from Canada and on that
from the Baltic was such, as to favour highly the con-
sumption of the worse instead of the better timber. He
would now come to the coasting trade, in which the num-
ber of tons amounted to 8,368,000 in the course of the
last year. On that amount there had been a small reduc-
tion, but not such as to affect us. In 1823 the tonnage
of the coasting trade (and this account included British
nriangeedoan pthoiettliorinshtltiraatde
ships tradingtollBre2lasn,d)B,,3‘o7o7o,Bol9,ooo ; in 1821 it was
8,11)1,000; in (.1)0R0e!
and in 1827, 8,186,000. Of that ninuilnBb2er6:ntl
97,000; and in 1828, 141,000. It was worthy of remark,
might
was hloe7tl:otost;ated : in 1825
that the resources of that country remained unimpaired ; the
fact was most gratifying in itself—but when coupled with the
comparison, which nn one could fail to institute, between
her trade and that of this country, it was a reproach to us
ttiulrentofno
that such a country should have a trade of only 141,000
tons, while our tonnage amounted to about eight millions.
..--(Hear.)—They ought to bear these facts in their minds,
and endeavour, to the.utmost extent, to fulfil their duty
towards that country, and to call forth her resources into
active and beneficial operation.—(Hear, hear.)—Before
he closed his observations, he would say semething with
regard to the state of the trade of London. It had been
sad, that the proceedings of last year had destroyed that
trade ; but the following accounts would show the incor-
rectness, of that statement. In the year 1824, the tonnage

dered that all ships, nn coming. into port, should be
registered upon the oath of the captain. The old
Registry Act, the 26th of the late King, did not
provide for the ships which might be lost at sea, or
otherwise destroyed—their registries still remained, but
when he came to remodel the registries in 1827, it was
plain that thuse ships which were no longer in existence
could not be registered de novo. —(Hear. )--Therefore all
the shipping which had been lost or destroyed from 1774
to 1827 were omitted in the new registry list. Thereupon
the Gallant .General calls upon him to account for the ap-
parent diminution in shipping between 1226 and 1827.
Why the same thing would have happened if the remo-
delling of the registry act had taken place in 1814, or in
any other year.--:(1-lear. )—But his Gallant Friend inquired
what had become of the seamen? In reply to this ques-
tion he weal state, that about a century and a halt ago
this House granted A land-tax to the Crown, and tax
Commissioners were appointed by King William in every
county for its collection. These collectors were appointed.
only for the year; and it appeared chat each year the
county Members returned to'Government the • names of a
number of gentlemen qualified to fill the office. From the
period of King William, to the present time, this law had
continued unchanged,when at this moment a Bill for that
purpose was passing through the House; and it was found
necessary to append to that Bill all the names of all tl
Commissioners who had been appointed, and of all tl e
persons who had been recommended by the several
county Members from the time of King William to the
present. The Bill in that state had been already read, a
third time; it was a mass of such magnitude, that the
other Bills on the table would appear but as mere shreds
before it ; and, indeed, he shoUld not be the person to
move that it should be carried to the Lords by any on-
Member of that llouse..—(A laugh.)--Now, if any one prc§
posed to take out of that Bill the names of all those pei sons
who were unquestionably dead— such as those appointed
in the reigns of King William, Queen Anne, King
George 1., 11., and Hon. and Gallant Friend

would probably Itareiat the diminished Bill, and ask
"what had become of all theComMissioners ?"_....(Laoghtaa.
—His Gallant Friend' bad admitted that there was au
increase in trade, but be complained that tke expenses in
the men and shipping, by which the trade was carried
on, had decreased. What then was the manifest object
of his inquiry? That the shipping should be employed
at higher rates.—that the Country should be Out to greater
expense, and that thus all competition with foreign coun-
tries should be prevented.—( Hear.)—His Gallant Frienl
had complained that, by the aid of steam-packets,-e,:aels
*ere enabled often a fortnight sooner to get to sea, and
that British vessels often made two voyages in one season
to the Baltic. His Gallant Friend ought at once' to pass a
law to put down steam-packets, and to prevent vessels
making more than one voyage in the year to the Baltic.
There was an agent in London at present for all th.
shipping belonging to the north-east coast of England.
That gentleman was Mr. Richmond, one who had closely
attended to the interests which it was his duty to watch
over; and in a letter which he (Ifr. Huskisson) had re-
ceived from that gentleman this mornin, occurred the fol-
lowing sentence:—" It is not from want of employment
that we complain ; we have more of that than ever there
was. Owing to the consumption of our noble and wealthy
country, I am convinced that the importations of 162`i
have exceeded those of the farafame:l 1325."—(dear;)—
This showed that the shipping interests were in no wain:
of employment. He would admit that the shipping in-
terests, as well as the other interests of this countiy, had
latterly made but small progress to prosperity, but that ivas

owing to general causes, which all must admit, while the)
deplored their exi,.tence. The shipping interests cont-

plained, on the one hand, and so did the formers and mann-
faeturers on the other. It had been over and over again asked.
whether, under the present system, British shipping-
eould stand a fair competition with the ships of other
nations. He would answer that question by a statement
which bad been put into his hands by one of the members
for the city of London (Mr. Alderman Thompson). The
ports of Brazil were free ports; and it appeared that
trade of Brazil, between Brazil arid Europe, owing to th.-
want of »hipping in Brazil, must be carried On either by
European ships, or by those of the United Stars. Oac
_ _

. - .
article of Brazilian produce was sugar. It could not he
orought to England on aecouLt of the high prohibitory
duties. A great portion of it was exported to Trieste,
and the other portion to Hamburgh. Twenty-eight ves-
sels sailed from Bahia in the last year laden with sugar to
Trieste ; and of these four were Austrian, (belonging to
the country to which Trieste is attached) ; to o were
suedes ; one Russian ; is all seven ; and the remaining
?l were English.—(Hear.) Forty-eight ships sailed to
Hamburgh from Bahia during the last year, of these
le belonged to Hamburgh, two were Gel mans, one Dutch •
wan, one Swede, one Russian, and 23 of them were

English. (Loud cries of " hear.") Thus out of 75 vessel,
which carried on the trade of the Brazils with Europe,
about fifty were English.—(Hear.)—While he had been
absent from the House, he had heard that his Right Hop
Friend,
dared, thehis own mind, Vice-Presidentof
that of hisßoardof
Trade,Righ thadfind:
that
Colleague, the president of that Board, who was not
present iu the House; were blank neon this subject.
did not think, however, that they were persons likely lo
adopt any change in the general policy and principle of the
4sumnerce of this country, introduced within the last eight
years by his (Mr. Huskisson's) two Noble Friends, now M
the other House, and himself. He was sure that his Right
lion. Friend, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade.
was animated by such liberal feelings, that when lie came
to examine into the present system, he would come to th,
determination of maintaining and supporting it. Thar
system had the approval of the present Secretary of th
Home Department. It had the approval of every member
of Lord Liverpool's goverumert, and it was entirely ap-
proved of by Lord Liverpool himself.—(Hear.)—lfe way
anxious that it should go forth to foreign nations that this
country would not retrograde from that system.—(Hear.)
And he was sure that his Right Hon. Friend did not
intend to mean, by the expression which had fallen from
him, that any change was contemplated in that system.
All be would ask was, let the system get fair play. If
the blessings of peace could be continued, he was sure
that, under that system, commerce, and all the interests
connected with commerce, would flourish and improve.
A charge had beets made elsewhere by one who, because
he had been a diplomatist, assumed the wisdom of a states-
man, against this country for recognizing the indepeudence
of the SouthAmericau States.—(Cheers.)—lt was a tardy
wisdom which came in with its advice when fonunately it
was impossible to prevent the establishment of the inde-
pendence of these great and extensive countries. These
State!, had unfortunately occupied the relation of bellige-
rents with one another, and some infractions of the law's
of nations had been committed. But had such infrac-
tions never been committed by this and other civilised
countries in a state of war. Why, Old Spain her-
self had sinned fifty times as much in that way as
the countries that had been freed from her yoke.
There had not been one case of irregularity corn.
mitted by those belligerents on British commerce
which had not been made the subject of remon-
strance. These States when they became more settled ittrt
tranquil, he was convinced would add increased wealth to
the commerce of this country, and would be in every way
productive of the greatest advantages to England. The
Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by expressing a hop,
that the present commercial system would get fair play,
and a fair trial, and be would stake his character and hi.,
reputation on its success.
LordWt
W.
imemotion.
POWLETTio recommended his Gallant Friar'.
withdrawto

soottl)lv,e_t Government, to
imputed
Member for Dover.
by his Right Mon. Friend, the Member for Inver-
me CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERto la:
Member for Dover seemed to thinii, from some-
to tThiel
some-
thing which had fallen from his Hon. Friend, the Vice-
'President of the-Board of Trade, that Government intended
Tnacin6las:xiemi:Hautnosh,nde.moonpoirtn
opinions
ose
tnprsoanr
gt
whichi oy fhbyihsatAdhleba j.eHeesnotyni'n:
to abandon the principles with respect to navigation and
trade which they had acted on previously to the late Sepa-
ration; but he could sincerely say, un the pact of those
Members of the Administration and of himself, that there
never was the slightest disposition to abandon those rill-
eiples.—(Hear.)---Time was only wanting to show how
decidedly and unequivocally they would be followed up.
Sir M. '\V. RIDLEY should feel it his duty, if his
Gallant Friend pressed his motion to a division, to vote
against it.

Mr. Ht.BKISSON, at this late hour of the night,
would not trespass long upon the attention of the House.
In preceding sessions of Parliament he had already stated
at large his views and principles in reference to'thiti im-
portant question; and it would be quite impossible for
him to add any thing to the lucid and convincing statement
of facts whiPli his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Grant) bad
laid before the Mouse upon this nosy almost exhausted
subject. The lion. Member for Dover had expressed his
indignant feelings at the treatment which he (Mr. Huskis-
son) had received from certain parties. Ile could assure
the House that such treatment had in no degree disturbed.
the tranquillity of his (Mr. Huskisson's) feelings, and if
they paid but 2001. to the writer of the scurrilous pamph-
let alluded to, he would only say they had measured their
liberality by the low rates of freights.--(A laugh.)--Ht'
would own that be had been rather startled by the first
statement of the Gallant General. The Gallant General
commenced by stating, that he was about to discuss.....
what ? an abstract naval question with a collateral view to
commerce.—(Loud laughter.)—He must acknowledge that
his Gallant Friend had wtll performed his words—it by,
" abstract" be bad meant a view of the subject, leaving
out all the facts of the case—and he treated the collateral ,
part of the question with quite as little reserve.._ I
(Laughter.)--The Gallant Geanral had argued upon what would, ou the 80th of June, move, .4 That all diadrtu
he seemed to consider an apparent deficiency or falling oft' born of slave parents within the British dominin,s, after
in the tonnage of the country, and in the numS,er of sea- the Ist of January, 1830, be free."]
men ; and his proposition was, that next session they should [Eartartist.]—ln the Parliamentary Report yesterday,
inquire Mtn a subject which had been already fully and ea- sir Geuge Murray is represented to qh,ve taken hi- -cat,
ti4f.ictorily explained. In 1825, he (Mr. Huskisson) felt It was Arr. Arbuthnot. Sir George, who sits for aS„ tch
it his duty so consolidate all the complicated acts relating voting, cannot 15.41i-turnej to Purlisture-it r two or tl tee
:,hipping, and by one provision then made, it was or- weeks to owe,

General GASCOYNE said a wry few words in reply.
The gallery was then cleared; but during our absence
the motion was negatived without a division.
Mr. STANLEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the law respecting the leasing powers of Bishops
and Ecclesiastical Corporations in Ireland.
The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and Ilse
House adjourned at Two o'Clock.

,