The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-09 00:00:00

her should affirm, that the Protestants of Ireland demanded
concession for the Catholics as indispensable for the preser-
vation of public tranquillity—nothing could be further from
their real sentiments—nothing could be more unfounded in
fact. It would be impossible to bring such a proposition
before them without its being instantly scouted. It was
inconceivable how any one acquainted with tie state of
Ireland could for a moment entertain the opinion that the
Catholics of that country were collectively considered to
be regarded as parties to the disturbances. Were there
no other consideration to restrain them a regard to the
security of their own estates ought, surely, to be more than
sufficient for that purpose. Indeed it had frequently been
asserted, that the Catholic gentry were never wanting in
efforts for that purpose—for years their conduct had been
held up as a pattern of all that was loyal and praiseworthy
in the best of subjects—as having made every effort that
men could make to restrain the turbulent temper of the
ab knewou re
rtst
as peoplem en of..
people, acted upon as it was by the excitements which
Ireland—hea sa i
those who stood forth as their leaders uniformly supplied ;
and but that it was so supplied Ireland would be as tranquil
other
kcnoeuwn country e upon oat: earth.
tenants
bei s of society in general ; and it was only common
justice to them to state, that their dispositions at all times
led them to occupy themselves in the pursuits of real
industry—that their minds Were ever bent upon cherishing
domestic feelings, and contributing to the maintenance of
public and private tranquillity. He, from his own
knowledge, knew them to be as brave and as generous
a race as could exist, much more intent upon securing
to themselves the advantages of industry than o. engaging
in political dissentions, were they not stimulated by the fac-
tious interference of men whose sole object was disturbance.
—lt was not by what was called Emancipation that
the improvement of such men was to be effected—it was
by ensuring them employment—by diffusing amongst them
the blessing of education—it was by such means alone that
the improvement of Ireland could be pursued with any suc-
cess. It was only by that the condition of society in that
country could be at all assimilated to the condition of so-
ciety in England.- It would only he by the moral, the in-
tellectual, and the religious improvement of that people,
that any thing like beneficial effects could be produced. He
was perfectly aware of the ferment which prevailed in Ire-
land ; but he entirely attributed that ferment to the Ca-
tholic Association, to the dangerous tendency of which
body it was impossible for any one acquainted with the
state of Ireland to be insensible. The dangerous system of
organisation also to which that body gave rise, was what the
übsereers of Ireland were equally alive to ; but this topic he
would scarcely have adverted to had it not been so much
dwelt upon by those who had preceded him in the debate. If
he thought the concessions demanded by the Catholics would
have the effect of tranquillizing Ireland and promoting
its general prosperity, he should be the last to oppose it.—
It was alleged, in defence of the Cathodic Association, that
their sole object was the repeal of the Penal Laws, by
which their body was aggrieved. If that were really and
sincerely their object, why did they take so wide a range
in all their proceedings—why were they so extensive—why
so indefinite—why were they found discussing every public
measure? scarcely a measure was brought forward in either
House of Parliament that did not undergo discussion by
the Catholic Association; that was not made the vehicle
of topics of the most irritating character, and treated with
the most intemperate vehemence. The Catholic Asso-
ciation was a monstrous anomaly, from which alone the
mischievous importance attached to the present question
was derived. He put it to the House whether the con-
cessions which the Catholics demanded would have the
effect of remedying the evils under which Ireland laboured
—would it raise the rent of the land ?---(A laugh, and cries
of hear, hear.) Would it improve the condition of the
poor—would it bring the waste lands into cultivation—
would it tempt the capitalist to explore the mines,
or to work the collieries with which that coun-
try abounded—would it transfer the manufactures of
this country to that—would it create that confidence in the
tranquillity of the population, which it was alleged was ne-
cessary to produce the transfer of British capital? The
Hon. Member then went on to deny that it would have any
of those efiects ; but that, especially as it regarded the
transfer of British capital, it was quite an error to suppose
tnat the existence cf the disabilities of which the Catholics
complained had any effect in deterring British capitalists
from embarking their property in Irish speculations. It
was well known that British merchants were ready to en-
gage in the wildest and most forlorn speculations, equally
regardless of climate, soil, and government, equally indif-
ferent to the convulsions of nature and of society. Wherever
there existed the slightest probability of a productive return,
they were found actively urging the pursuits of commerce
in every part of the world. Recent experience had afforded
incontestable evidence, that the application of British ca-
pital in Ireland was not readily effected. In 1826, during
the sunshine, or what he might call the comet blase of
commercial speculation, it shone most plenteously in the
South of Ireland, and in the midst of White Boy disturb-
ances the linen and cotton manufactures experienced its fos-

tering influence. The fact was, that so long as reasonable
prospects of return existed, so long British capital would
be freely expended in Ireland, without the capitalists
troubling themselves for a single moment with
the Catholic Question. In entering a little further

into the present discussion, and in considering what might
be the probable effects of unqualified concession, he assured
the House that he had no intention of discussing in detail
the doctrines and tenets attributed to the Catholics, and
which had so often formed the subject of angry debate. It
was the boast of the professors of the Catholic frith that
their Church could adapt itself to any form of Govern-
ment, and to any varying circumstances. Recent occur-
rences had given evidence of this in a manner which he should
conceive little favourable to the views of those by whom that
topic had been urged. For his part he was willing to be-
lieve that they would pay due respect to an oath ; he did
nut fear that, if they possessed power, they would revive
the despotism of the middle ages ; but he did contend that
the modern spirit of the Church of Rome had a tendency
to inflict evils which no lover of his species could regard
.without apprehension and abhorrence. The Hon. Gentle-
man then adverted to the renewal of the Inquisition, the
revival of the Jesuits, and the rescripts of the Pope, as in-
dications of the unchanged and unchangeable spirit of the
Church of Rome ; and after entering into a long argu-
ment, derived from the history of Elizabeth and James
the First, to prove the influence of the clergy over the
laity, concluded by declaring his intention ti vote against
the motion.
Mr. DOGHERTY said, for many years he had been
an attentive observer of all that was passing in Ireland, and
trusted that he had observed what was passing on that dis-
tressful scene in the temper which entitled him to he called
somewhat impartial. He had mingled with the ardent and
the violent of both parties, without haying- imbibed the
prejudices of either—he therefore hoped that they, the
House, would bear with him, while he shortly stated the
conclusion at which his mind arrived after long and atten
tive observation. He felt that he should not be dealing
fairly or honestly by the House, if he did not at once avow
his full persuasion that the time had arrived at which the
question ought to be set at rest. He had heard the wish
to see it set at rest expressed in almost every quarter,
and of this he was assured, that it could only be set
at rest in One way. Three-and-twenty years had elapsed
since
ppo lie s
iheardopposite,
ad who
the question
took a
first
lead
debated
thein tlat, acHouse,4f)
and the distinguished individual who then sat on the front
bench
Catholic Claims, said then, as be (Mr. D.) said now, there
was but one way of setting the question at rest—
namely, by acceding to the just demands of the Ro-
man Catholics. The motion made three-and-twenty years
ago was met and negatived by a large majority. The dis-
tinguished advocate of the Catholics most truly said that
adverse majorities would never crush the just demands of
the Roman Catholics—the question was before the House
then, and for ever. Three-and.twenty years ago there was
a majority against the Catholics of 112, but that was found
altogether insufficient to crush the just claims of millions.
For three-and-twenty years, year after year, the question
had been brought under their consideration, and the uni-
that
itotinus:gepth(,riatentsoet to
present state.
tessrctsel:titeel whethernhiott
setou be
not
mosofun,at:lheti erlioenc osnotgud;enerttrrl)y:n7oltillinviiieeiynsici
person whose opinion was of the slightest value imagintd
there
lag. sti itl bfte
feeling
could
th
time had arrived at which the Legislature of the coun-
try were called upon to deal • with the question in some
way or other. There were three possible modes in which
they might ifizet it—the first was, to permit things to remain
as they were—the second was to accede to the requests of
the Roman Catholics—the third was to adopt each mea-
cures of coercion as must for ever extinguish the claim.' of
the Irish Catholics. It was for the House to say which of
these three modes they would adopt. Of the coercive pro-
cess he could not imagine that it would find many advo-
cates, even amongst those most adverse to the admission of
Catholics to political power ; for there was no attentive ob-
server of the past history and present state of Ireland, that
must not anticipate the utter futility °touch a system—tha!
must not be convinced that it would impart strength to the
cause which it was intended to subdue—that it would only
accelerate that consummation which it was the object of the
opponents of the lion. Baronet's motion to retard. He bad
no wish to enlarge on the details of the subject, but rather,
in glancing at them, to point out the danger which
might arise, for although his Honourable and Learned
Friend (Mr. Moore) bad pointed out facts in which
he agreed, yet he totally disagreed in the concha-
.

sins drawn from them. He Would wish, that laying
aside all prejudices or preconceived opinions, and' all
arguments about the Treaty of Limerick, or the Union,
the House would calmly examine the subject. He
wished that every Member should be like the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Percival,) who had come that night,

who bad inquired into the question, and who bad come to
a conclusion different from that he formerly maintained....
He had no hesitation in saying, if they all did so, they
would at all events come to the decision that Ireland could
not remain as it was. The next point he would come to

was, were they to re-enact those laws which were
repealed? lie had heard a distant hint—(hear, hear)—
a hint unembodied in words, as to tite means which
were to be taken; but still that there were means.
There was no man ever yet hold enough in that House to
say that in this enlightened age and nation there should be
a return to a state of coercion. That was not the way—it

might, no doubt, dissolve one obnoxious association, but
it would make every man himself the chairman of one
much snore deadly and dangerous. He would, or., the other
hand, advise the Government to go forward, and he wished
to hear distinctly and plainly what was the objection to
doing so. He had heard violence of conduct alleged as
one ; and he had heard that the admission of Catholics to

seats in Parliament would be a breach of a fundamental
part of the Constitution as another ; and much as he

wished fur concession, and dear as the peace of Ireland

was to him, he would not ask for it if accompanied by any
such violation. But it was not so, and he said so not on
his own, but on the highest authority, that of the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department, who admitted that
it concession produced such benefits, he would not resist it
on any theory of the Constitution. But irconcessiou were

to be relinquished, then the question lay between what
would and what would not tranquillize Ireland. He was not
one who thought that Emancipation would at once do go,
for if he were he should be as much mistaken as if ho

said it would produce no effect at all, but he was assured
that a perseverance in these laws which had been tried
fur so many years without tranquillizing the country, would
but add more to the difficulty of doing so. Was there, he
would ask, no reason to try change when they had the
nr:dn, o
and would d Ireland vs-
timony of experienced persons of the benefits it was likely
uia o
to produce. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Moore) had talked of
thea
as
have b e
be believed' that being kind,
osp tat bleand good-
natured, lreland was at
present in possession of English capital and valuable manu-
factures. That was not however the case, there was not
English capital there, nor ever would while matters re-
mained as they were. First herein by producing tranquil-
lity, and then, indeed, English capital would not fail to
flow in. Then what was the danger to be apprehended
from Catholic Gentlemen being allowed to have seats in
the House, for they were already there by their Representa-
tives, a consequence that became necessary the moment
they got the elective franchise. They were in the House,
in their most noxious form ; for, begging the pardon of
some Hon. Gentlemen at the other side of the House,
their Representatives were but unreasoning passive in-
struments, and were required not only to be active and
vigilant, but even violent. As to the last election he
would not say a word more than to observe that no-
thing had taken place which was not to be expected, be-
cause such conduct was natural so long as the present sys-
tem was endeavoured to be perpetuated.- He feared, too,
that if things were continued in the same way, that the
next would be full as dangerous, as the probability was,
that the Irish, rushing blindly on, might find persons .to
represent them without any reference either to rank, re-
spectability, or talent; and it was to be feared that this
would be the cause of displacing some valuable Members,
for no other blemish in the eyes of the Catholics than their
giving their votes against them front sincere conviction.
He assured the Ikuse, that when he rose, he had no con-
ception that he should have trespassed so long on their at-.
tention, but he hoped he had done it with moderation, and
also earnestly desired that there should not he any recourse
had to irritating topics ; and he therefore implored every

.Member to follow the example set by the Hon. Member for
Westminster. He apologised for thus detaining the Hous.-
--(Hear, bear)—although he bad not fully gone into the
details of the Question, but he purposely exposed himself
to any charge which might he made against him on that
ground, and he hoped that in any illusion he mi,6t have
made to his opponents, he had rendered them a Lir mea-
sure of justice. The Learned Gentleman then sat down
amidst loud cheers from all sides of the Hott.e.

Lord F. L. GOWER said, that although the Hon,
Member fur Dublin (Mr. Moore) bad, by some glorious
process of reasoning, arrived at the conclusion that this--
least imperial question ought not to be argued on the .
ground of expediency, he took the liberty of differing from
him, and would therefore confine himself chiefly to the
ground of expediency. Before he made any observation of
his own, he would refer to the words of a greater advocate
(whose memory was 'respected and regretted) on the me-
moreble occasion of the debate of ISI2. After assuming •
that all subjects were entitled to equal rights, he next
argued that it was essential to promote an identity of in-.
terests and of feelings in all, as members of the same com-
munity. Entirely assenting, as be did, to the truth of these
arguments, be (Lord F. L. Gower) doubted the universa-
lity of the application ; for if a distinction were taken
between good and bad government—that is, between
one that was arbitrary and our own--in the one that might
not be beneficial, while in the latter it would be extremely
so. As Austria had been spoken of, he would give it as an
instance, and one which bad many of the faults which we
despise. There the bond of connexion was different, and as
one well acquainted with that Government had said, the
Hungarian despised the inhabitant of Vienna; the Gali-
cian both ; and the Tyrolese had views 6111in:era from
either; yet diet was the way in which all the dominions
of that monarch were bound together—fur the connection
was kept up by the Hungarian being quartered at Milan,
while the Italian regiments were dispersed over the fertile
plains of Hungary. Far from him would it be to do so ire
these countries, for it was a fact that in this country, where
all possessed equal rights, that equality of rights produced
an equal interest for the safeguard and glory of the coun-
try, and enabled it to direct its undivided energies
wherever there was a necessity for their exercise. If, bow-
divide energies,rtelicsoisnegthe
power an
od f
poousriangge
gs dissentuiso
tness,
ana"s'aoas tthqleu'raallificatien for the
ever, there was any principle which could, snore then
possession of political power. It -
was very easy for persons to lay the flattering unction tca
their souls, and say that one class of the community eoela
make excellent laws -for the other, and that both were
flourishing under them, but that assumption war, in point
of fact, false. Besides, the next question was, where wore
you to get a receipt for making the Catholics believe it was
true. He had often heard that the evils of Ireland were
theoretical, and he himself thought that they were not
entirely derivable from Catholic disabilities, and examples
might be drawn from our triumphs in war, and our pros-
perity otherwise, to support this argument; but he
would in answer say, that it was no doubt true that
the Treasury had been filled from the coffers of Ca-
tholics, and that the blood of the Catholics had watered
the fields of Europe, in achieving our triumphs, aa.
freely as the blood from Protestant or Unitarian veins.
There was another subject also, to which he would
refer, and on which -much misrepresentation prevailed
throughout England, which was, that when rebellion raised
that lie dismissed
his unabashed front in Ireland, it proceeded from the Pres-
byterians of Ulster, and it was the Protestant Wolfe Tone,
who, in answer to the desire of the French 111inister that:
the body of the people and those who influenced them
Would any 00
should be engaged, said that he did not vrish the Catholic
Priesthood to be at all sought after, for tluT were the na-
itiulrtailie nenemiesouse ot
then
etnh the Frenchay to
the
ellce Revolution. y
l•
them from their Bar, and that as they la fought for l.
country' he would continues
preservation, and that of the s
to withhold from them their rights, so help him God."
--(Loud cheers.)—He had not jumped to the conclusion,
that the balance of danger wag in favour of continuing the
at, On et
cry
state of things, and co 'der tion of
present , 3‘Y -ns a
be eranteu. If it •
expediency, it ought to
to treat with disrespect the petition on the table, be ceulsi
only say that lee never refused his attention to any Iriele
• and if any one of that elurged " -
proprietor,
against• ass aegumeree
on this subject, awe • his views, he would only yield tr.
their reason, but not to their eloquence, or their feet.,
If he asked, such a person why he differed Irma
the large
le might
of the talent of Ireland an this
subject, l a might be answered that the Church
would not last an hour, nor the Union a ti3Vl
°tlllUoltitr,"l
and that the times of Charles
I. would come over again.—
see, however, could never know the process by which these
things could occur by the admission of a few Catholic gen-
tlemen, and it was the opinion of a distinguished advocate
of those claims, now in the House of Lords, that if the
whole number of Is isle Members were persons inclined
with the worst principles of Jesuitical policy, there
could be no fear of them when weighed against the talent
and the worth of this country. The Noble Lord went
on to say, that although he did not avow such a total
antipathy to the Catholie doctrines as the Member for
Newport, yet that he did not like either them or the Con-
stitution of the:r Clcucele and that he ehouelit all the de-
clarations, parchments, and statues, faded into nothing
as securities, when compared wit' that little engine—
the Printing Press.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—iie did rot be-
lieve that any evil doctrine could stand the test of thet
machine, and though they might talk of the violence of the
Presbyterians, the craft of Cromwell, and the more legiti-
mate patriotism of the Someesete and Res!ellseeall faded