The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNINE-4-, FEBRTTA-RV 25 184;.

ceedingly pressed in consequence of the great number of rail-
way Bills that had been brought forward. He thought, there-
fore, the greatest latitude ought to be given them in preparing
their reports. The whole of the proceedings of the Board
would be before Parliament in a short time. The Committee
of the Board of Trade had been treated as culprits, and as cul-
prits condemned. Now, all he asked was, not that they should
receive pardon, but that they should be put again upon their
trials.

Lord CAMPBELL thought the Board was not supported
by any authority. Certainly it rested upon the resolution of
another House, but he believed their Lordships had come tono
resolution whatever. It could not, therefore, be expected that
the decisions of the Board should be acquiesced in until the
reasons fer them had been laid before the public, and the matter
had been examined in a Select Committee. He most distinctly
and strongly protested against the report of the Board of
Trade being looked upon as an absolute decision, for it was im-
possible the Board could have in every case been supplied with
sufficient information to enable them to form a correct judg-
ment as to the merits or demerits of any particular scheme.
Indeed, the Noble Lord himself had admitted that in some
it -
stances they were groping in the dark; and he therefore did
not think it right that the decision of the Board should disturb
the interests of persons who had invested in some of these
railway speculations to the amount of several hundred thousand
pounds. —( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of DALHOUSIE reminded the House that a
Committee of the House of Commons had sat for a long time
considering this question—whether there should be any parti-
cular inquiry into railway schemes by a Board in connexion
with the Government, and this Committee discussed the matter
in all its bearings. The decision they came to was—that there
should not only be a Board of Inquiry of this nature, but that
it should be entrusted to the Board of Trade, and not only to
the Board of Trade, but to the railway department of the
Board of Trade, to form this tribunal. Not only did they do
this, but they explained what should be the functions of this
Railway Board, the precise manner in which it should be regu-
lated, and, in order that there should not be the slightest room
fur objection, the Committee stated what the Board should not
do. They, therefore, not only defined what were the functions
and the particular points to be discussed by the Board, but
they went further, and detailed what were the points on which
the Board should not be permitted to inquire. How coul I
Noble Lords after this assert that the Board had been founded
without due and sufficient authority?
The subject then dropped, and their Lordships immediately
afterwards adjourned.

SUGAR DUTIES.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL gate notice of a motion on the sub-
ject of the differentiatl duties on slave-grown and free-labour
sugar ; but the Noble Lord read hi 3 motion in so low a tone,
that scarcely its scope could be guessed at in the gallery.
WAYS AND MEANS.

On the reading of the order of the day for geiug into a
Committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. VILNER GIBSON said tl.at he rose to move the
amendment on the order of the day, of which he had given
notice. If the House would give him its indulgence for a short
period he would endeavour, as briefly as was consistent with a
clear exposition of the views he entertained, to explain the grounds
why he thought proper to move the present amendment. The
amendment was a resolution, and was as follows :—" That to
arrangement of the sugar duties will be satisfactory and per-
manent which does not involve an equalisation of duty on fo-
reign and colonial sugar." He was aware that there was an
objection entertained by many Members of Parliament to
the moving of what were called abstract resolutions ; and,
certainly, if he were asked the question whether it were a de-
sirable course to move an abstract resolution without any prac-
tical result, he would answer that such a course would not
be the wisest for a Member of Parliament to pursue, and in-
deed it would not at all be necessary to ask the assent of the
House to what would be termed the " abstract pr'n-
ciple" contained in this resolution, because he believed
that that principle had already received the full and un-
qualified concurrence of the Ministers of the Crown,
and, as he believed, the great majority of the
Members of that Howe. But it was because this resolution
was a practical resolution, and indicated a mode for arrang-
ing the sugar duties on something like a permanent footing,
that he undertook to submit it to the House. The course he
had taken was sanctioned, fully sanctioned by precedent, be-
cause it would be in the recollection of the House that when
the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sandon) had,
when a mode of arranging the sugar duties was brought for-
ward by the late Executive Government, submitted his view in
the form of a resolution, and in that resolution he indi-
cated what he conceived would be a fitting mode of
placing those sugar duties on a permanent footing. The point
to which he drew the attention of the House was the neces.
sity 6f maintaining a distinction betwesn sugar the produce of
slave-labour and free-labour in the markets of this country.
The Noble Lord contended that it would be consistent with the
course hitherto taken by Parliament with regard to the
slave trade so to arrange the duty on foreign produce
as to give a direct encouragement to one or the other. But
though the Noble Lord invited them to take that course, as
something like a permanent settlement of the sugar duties, ex-
perience had proved that no gain was effected for the country
in the nature of a settlement, for the question of the sugar
duties was in a state of constant suspense ; and since that period
the sugar trade was in a state of uncertainty and depression, and
they hail already had to pronounce their opinion on several dis-
tinct measures for arranging the taxation on sugar. And they
knew well that nothing was so prejudicial to the sugar trade ot
the country as to subject the duty by enactment to continued
alterations, because no person would engage in a trade which
was subject to the continued alterations of the Legislature.
The question which was to be introduced that night was, in his
opinion, a strong argument for something which should lead to
the permanent settlement of this question. His lion. Friend
the Member for Coventry had called the attention of Hon.
Members, in consequence of a petition which he had pre-
ented to the House, to the loss which must be sus-
tained by the dealers in sugar, from the rise of duties
on that article, by the influence of the alteration of duties
on the stock in hand, and asking for some recompense for
that loss. The Hen. Member for Norfolk had put questions
of a similar tendency. He did think that when petitions of this
character were presented to the House, that common sense re-
quired that the question should be so entertained as to place it
on a permanent basis, and thus leave this great interest in
such a position as to preserve it from continual changes. He
was aware that in the course which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was obliged
to take, he could not obviate the difficulty by a
permanent Act of Parliament for the assessment of the sugar
duties. He was also aware that this was contrary to the con-
stitutional principle, but at, the same time he thought that this
interfered in no way with the necessity imposed by a great
public principle ; on the contrary, he felt that this was in itself
an argument for some measures by which the dealers in that
great article of sugar should be saved arum the continual
changes to which they were subject. Though it was impos-
sible to pass an Act for the permanent settlement of these
duties, yet there was a great argument afforded
not only by the existence of this constitutional obstacle, but
also by the peculiar condition of colonial property, for the
settlement of the impost to which sugar was subject. If they
would not pass a permanent Art, they could at least so settle
the question as to put every one dealing in this article in such
' a position as to know to what they would in future be subject.
They might pass such a measure as would be agreeable to
the common feeling of the House, and thus place a regulation
on the hooks that might be renewed from year to year.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had invited them to a Committee
of Ways and Means to vote a supply to her Majesty. He had
no objection to accede to that invitation.. Ifa tax was to be raised
in an indirect manner he thought the duty on sugar was a
very reasonable duly. There could be no fair objection to it ; but
to a different rate of duty between foreign and colonial sugar,
a duty having reference to the place of growth, and the whole
of that tax being paid by the consumer in this country—to that
course, he said, he entertained an insurmountable objection. No
doubt such a result might come from the measure
based on the principles which the Right limmurable
Gentleman had submitted to the House. Nothing was
more clear than if they imposed different rates of duty,
upon sugar, with reference to its place of growth, or upon any
other such principle, the difference between the rates of duty
went not into the Exchequer but into the pockets of some par-
ticular class. Two descriptions of sugar were in Loral, sac of
equal value. It was necessary perhaps to define
what he meant by equal value. He meant what it
would sell for in the markets of the world. Take that
value to be 245.: to the one sample apply a duty of 28s, to the
other apply a duty of 14s. Now, what is the consequence?
It was quite clear that if the sample of sugar at the duty of 284.
be sold in the markets of this country, it must sell for 525., 525.
being the total of 28s. the duty, and 245. the supposes!
original cost. This was a sample of what is termed slave-
grown sugar. Now the sample, when brought into our mar-
kets, fetched but 425. Now where did the difference go ? Not
into the Exchequer, but into the pockets ot the colonial grower.
He would take a sugar worth 245., and a sugar worth 15s.—
the two extremes. He would apply the 28s. duty to ti:e sugar
worth 245., when it became in the market 525. ; he would ap-
ply the 14e. duty to the sugar worth 15s ; and he contended
that the mar worth 155., whatever the duty applied to it, would
always maintain its relative value to the other. Just in the
same manner that sugars of equal value must sell for the same
amount in our markets, so sugars of different value would
always maintain the same relation towards each other.
Applying the duty of 28s. to the sugar worth 155.,
it would sell for 435. Deducting 14s. from 435.,
293. would remain, and thus 14s. had been pocketed by the
colonial grower, which ought to go into the public revenue.
Whether, in fact, they took sugars of equal or sugars of unequal
value, if they applied to them a different rate of duty, they put
into the pockets of some particular individuals in this country
the difference of duty, and prevented thewhole amount of taxation
paid by the consumer from going into the Exchequer. The
question which concerned the inlet ests of Ike people of this
country was not whether the identical duties taken at t he Cus-
tom-house went into the public exchequer, but whether the
additional price paid bt the consumer did so, and if it did not, then
a gross injustice was perpetrated against the people of this country.
He did not know whether Hon. Gentlemen would dispute,
that if they imposed differential duties they attached to every
description of colonial sugar the full amount of the difference
of duties. If the amount of protection were Ioe., they
put 10s. into the pocket of the colonial grower over and
above the addition made by the duty of 14s. lie
would take the duty at 14s. upon colonial sugar. First,
14s. was added by the duty ; and, secondly, 10e. by. the pro-
tection, with respect to every description of colonial sugar.
And what was the effect of such an addition to the price ? What
was the extent of the fraud thus practised upon the revenue ?
The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them the other evening
that he expected that there would be 230,000 tons of colonial
sugar admitted next year —at 10s. a cwt., or 10/. a ton, that
would amount to the sum of 2,300,001 !. That was the sum
which they were invited to take out of her Majesty's Ex-
chequer, and to pay to the West Indian and the East Indian
proprietors. ~.
2 was the sum which it was proposed to
306,0001.
take out of the pockets of the people and to give it to the colo-
nial producer.—( Hear, hear.) This was a monstrous act of
injustice ups n the face of it.—( Hear, hear.) He knew that
there were lion. Gentlemen who would contend that there was
good reason why the colonial proprietors should be en-
titled to demaud this 2,300,0001. from the public
exchequer'. But, as a Member of Parliament repre-
senting the public interests, and not the interests
of any particular easstes, he was certainly entitled to ask why
called upon tleiepwayastlelinstistulemd toto theask
the community should Ins
West and East Indian pro
out, andv x theyetialits,a,tiluieerr.
A la
j,shouldsy
that at least a case should be mat::'
not be called upon to rush blindly .'in,
Government would have them do, at:si transfer this
enormous sum from her Majesty's to the
pockets of individuals. He had no notion of any reason as:;, ch
could be adduced to justify the transferring of this enormous sum
of 2,:300,000/. from her Majesty's Exchequer into the pockets of
the East and West India proprietors.—(Cheers.) Why had it
sot been mentioned in the first instance ')—( Hear, hear.) Why
had not the Right lion. Gentleman given notice of it when he
gave notice of his proposition ? They were called upon to.vote
money for her Majesty's exchequer, not to vote money to go
into the pockets of private individuals.—( Hear, hear.) He
would be the last to edvocate the principle he was advocating',
if he thought it was a principle of injustice, and he hoped Gen-
tlemen opposite would not affix to him a charge, that because he
was advocating the great principle, that national taxation should
be levied solely for national purposes ; that, therefore, he was
actuated by any personal motive to any class of her Majesty's
subjects.—( Hear, hear. ) No man could be more glad than
he would be to see the colonial interests prospering ; but
he could not reconcile it to his conscientious sense of
duty as a Member of Parliament to consent to the mea-
sure which the Right Hon. Baronet had proposed ; and if asy
one duty was more incumbent on a Member of the Legisla-
ture than another, it was to take care that a tax on the public
should not be imposed for the mere benefit of
private individuals. All taxes imposed on the
whole of the nation should be devoted exclusively to defraying
the national expenditure, and he hoped that he might be per-
mitted to advocate that principle firmly and boldly, without
laying himself open to the charge of being actuated by peculiar
animosity to the West Indian or the East Indian producers.
It had been said that there were grounds for transferring that
2,300,000/. during the next year to the colonial proprietors.
It had been alleged that by the legislation of this country at
former times they had acted towards the colonial proprietors
in such a manner as to give them a just and equitable claim on
the Exchequer. If that were so, he confessed that he would
prefer a more direct mode of meeting that claim than giving it
to the West India and East India proprietors in the form of
monopoly. He believed it would be more satisfactory to
the public, for there was nothing which the British public
wished so much to see as a balance with debtor and creditor
fairly set forth, in a clear and perspicuous manner. He be-
lieved that if a just claim was made out, that the British public
would not object to it, or object to give a fitting sum from the
public exchequer. But he contended that no such claim had
been made out ; and he also contended that no such claim
could be made out. He contended that if a difficulty had beeu
caused by the legislation of this country, compensation
had been given in the shape of a grant for 20,000,000/. The
Right Hon. Baronet opposite had, on a former eccasion, dis-
tinctly stated that they were entitled to deal with the West
Indies in the matter of duties, as they had purchased that right.
He (Mr. Gibson) presumed that on that occasion the Right
Hon. Baronet alluded to that grant of 20,000,0001. But
with regard to that difficulty, which it was alleged had been
created by their legislation, and for which 2,300,000/. were to
be given to the colonists at large, he would ask any man in
that House whether it was reasonable to give that compensation
to other parties than those who complained of the grievance ?
Was there not a complaint from the East Indies or the Mauri-
tius, or some of the West India islands, that they had suffered
from a want of labour by the legislation of that House, and yet
they proposed to give this sum of money, indiscriminately
divided amongst a number of parties, none of whom ever
pretended to have any claim to the protection of that House.
If they were to vote that 2,300,000/. in an indirect and un-
satisfactory manner, let them, at any rate, vote it to those who
pretended to have a claim ; and do not let them give it indis-
criminately to parties who had no claim whatever,
beyond their being West Indian proprietors. It was
well known that labour in British India—and his Hon.
Friend the 51m4ex for Finsbury would concur with hire in

the statement—that in no part of the habitable globe was
labour more abundant or more cheap than in British India ;
and he believed he was equally correct in saying that
in the Mauritius there was also a surplus of labour, and
that, in fact, the labourers were wandering about
there in search of employment, so great was the
number of coolies imported there. This was a point. which
was not to he lost sight of in the event of the Hotast deeming

it right to vote this large sum of money to those West India
propri, tors, en the grounds of reimbursement. I. would not
be right to vote any portion of this sum to the East Indies, be-
cause there was abundance of labour to be had there. The
island of Barbadoes was actually overflowing with lsborte,
and, therefore, it would not be right to grant any rortion
of the money to the growers of that island. Neither were the
growers in British India, or in the :Mauritius, or in Antigua,
entitled to any share of it. And what portion, then, was left
amongst whom it was to be shared, if those were left out ? They
were reduced to very few indeed ; and even reduced
es that number were, he would ask the House
to consider whether ever they would be entitled to
any potion of those two millions. What was the
alleged grievance of which those growers complained, in refe-
ree& to this detirsency of labour? They contended that they
were entitled to it because labour was not abundant ; that the
cost of the produce of sugar was increased by the difficulty of
procuring labour, and the high pri,e of labour in consequence.
Now, how stood the fact? In the first place the House
should receive very cautiously the statement of in-
terested parties, when they come to consider the eues-
t ion of the cost of producing sugar ; and, therefore, if they were
to hearevidence on this point, he should suggest that it should
be relevant and important, and should emanate from persons of
authority and intelligence, and who were disinterested. He
would then ask the house to consider what was the cost of pro-
ducing sugar during the time of the existence of slavery, and slat)
at the time when no very sanguine hopes were entertained as to the
emancipation of the slaves. lie would first take the cost of the
produce, in the year 1828, of one hundred weight of sugar,
with all the advantages of slavery in its most unmitigated form,
and without the apprehension that slavery was about to be
abolished. The authority he wished to quote on this point
was a disinterested authority, was an authority that Parliament
was entitled to receive with respect, an authority to which
Parliament was entitled to pay the greatest attention. That
authority was that of one of their own public officers,
a perfectly disinterested man himself, who had writ-
ten a work on the sugar-cane and the cultivation of
sugar—Mr. Porter of the Board of Trade.—( Hear, hear. )
What does he say in that work on the cost of producing a
hundred weight of sugar during the period of slavery, previous
to 1828 ? He says that the cost of producing it was about
9s. 10iil. per cwt. But he would take the liberty of reading
an extract from Mr. Porter's work, which would perhaps he
more satisfactory :—.‘ In the ten years from 1819 to 1828, the
whole expense of a sugar estate attending its cultivation, in-
cluding salt provisions, provision grounds for the negroes,
stores, repair of building medical attendance, the
salaries of overseers and attorneys, cost of planta-
tions, and stores and clothing sent from England,
was 26,851/. ; the number of slaveo was from 129 to 142,
the average number 140. Th. produce consisted of 29,492
cwts. of sugar, and 164,285 gallons of rum ; now, if they
valued the rum only at Is. fid. per gallon (the price
is now 2s. 4d. ), this would give 12,3211., leaving a
balance of 14,5291., being at the rate of 9s. 10id.
per cwt., as the cost of the production of the swats" He was
aware that theie were statements from interested parties, that
made out the cost of producing one hundred weight of sugar
tube lOW trwterially increased, and that even at the time he
mentioned, that it was much greater than the sum he had
named. But he contended that in Parliament, if they were to
have authorities, let diem have that of experienced men, of
Parliamentary Papers; let them not have merely the authoriti-s
that might be quoted from the loose and random assertions
made before Committees of that House by parties who
had a particular object to serve. The gentleman he named
was incapable of any misrepresentation, and entitled to their
respect. He was one of their own paid officers, and had had
experience to guide him in making the statement he had pub-
lished; therefore, as a witness, he was worth five hundred fold
more than any interested parties they could bring as having
made assertions before Committees of that House. Now, he
' had given the coot of raising a hundred weight of sugar during
the period of slavery, upon this authority. He would now give
them the cost of producing a cwt. of sugar on authority that
he thought must hare great weight at the present time. The
cost of 1 cwt. of sugar at the present moment, on two estates,
subject to to all those difficulties which were now complained
of, anti which were looked upon as formitig a ground for the
protection, was 10s. 6d. The quotation %s h ich he was about to
read was from the Jantaic t Royal Agricultural Reporter. That
question had appeared in an ingenious periodical which he was
sure her 3lajestv's Government must generally peruse, the
Economist—(Laughter)—to which he was indebted for his
attention being called to the facts ; and it was to fact, and not
argument, he e-ould now call the attention of the House. The
Jamaica Royal Agricultural Reporter of the 20th of January,
1544, contained a statement that the Royal Agricultural So.
ciety gave a price of 201. or a piece of plate of
that value, to the manager of any estate in mak-
ing the greatest quantity of sugar at the smallest
cost, from the Ist day of January to the 3 !st of Decem-
ber, 1843, " all things considered." He begged the
House to attend to the meaning of those words all things
considered." By those words it was meant that allowance
should be made to those managers who should make sugar at com-
paratively the least cost. For instance, if a manager were subject
to a greater deficiency of labour than another competitor for the
prize, then the greater cost of production necessarily occasioned
by that deficiency, would be taken into consideration in award•
ing the prize. What, then, was the difference of the cost of
production? On one estate it was 10s. 6d. per cwt., and in
another 6s. 91d. So that they had what appeared to
be good authority for stating that the cost of producing
sugar was, in the island of Jamaica, since the period of
slavery, from Gs. to les. per cwt. ; and, at this present mo-
ment, it was about 10s. tid. He asked whether
that could possibly be a ground for giving them a
bounty of 10s. on every cwt. which they produce ?—( Hear.)
Why the protection was greater than the cost of production.
But rumour said that, in reality, the protection was more than
10s.—( Hear.) He asked what possible ground, after the
authority he had cited, there could be for giving an
additional 10s. for every cwt. which was produced in those
colonies ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Brazilian could produce
sugar without any cost—if it were rained down from heaven—
from the skies—without any effort of human industry—
. lie would still be at a disadvantage in competing against
this protection of Ins. per cwt.—( Hear, hear.)
[ No person could deny the truth or justice of that argument, or
[ that he had not based his facts on competent authority. If
that were so, he would ask if they were, without further in-
quiry,,
in . Go-
vernmentmeant
b y t emphatically,that
io s.
p r 0 t andeeti
existedo protection. Rut.
then u‘spirit i
Would any'
af‘n,rt.ehmmreoemn:bat
regard
dar remonstrance, i
Indies,ao account.
, ouanhtde
of what
wouldchaa t
al
,siotkriwtwah
ases
they
ita without an attempt to resist this obnoxious tax, calmly
to(gf
tintehisn)aeectnmyt,
cochel alaedeficiencyallow
tii
satisfactoryes iNmv epotsi
act
scarcity
igt!
)e, upf i
haonedr
esrtsa? e thereWhy
t,
ht he a
Noblet a n y theh ot
dLiffiorcdu,lttyhearsoeseerferfoamry the
r
the Colonies, and now a Member of the other House, had
, stated, a year or two ago, that the number of labourers in
the West Indian colonies was sufficient, and all that was ne-
cessary was, that their labour should be properly applied.
and they themselves properly used. He thought he could show
from the words of that Noble Lord that it was owing to the
Emancipation Act not being carried out with true •pirit that
any difficulty at all arose in procuring a continuance of labour.
The Noble Lord said:—•` 11
--e rssuld venture to say that with
regard to the expense of cult ivation, there was no single instance
in which this natural consequence did not follow as effect and
cause—viz., that where they gave the negro labourer an interest
in the amount of work to be performed, er in the amount of
produce raised, then they would obtain constant and industrious
labourers,
not obtain
a when theydid
not give that interest, then they
latthem. The amount of competition carried
would but
on there at present was ruinous, and the planters competed
with each other in such a way by employing the labourers at
certain periods, and paying them accordingly, and not giving
them an interest in their work, and rewarding them according
to that work, that he thought that was the cause of the enormous
expense the planters were now subjected to in the West
Indies." That was the reason why they did not
get the negro freely to give his sinews in their
service.—( Hear, hear.) If that were true, and he
had the authority of Lord Stanley for saying that it was true,
that Noble Lord, who was the great. advocate far paying. the
`,0,000,0001. compensation to the West India interest, how
could they expect that the negro would work continually tor
them ? Why, if the same principle were applied towards the
British labourer, he very much doubted whether they would
not find the same result, and many branches of their industry
failing for want of continuous labour. It was stated at a pub-
lic meeting a few nights ago that, notwithstanding this com-
plain • t of the deficiency of tabour in Jamaica and other islands,
there was another most anomalous complaint. They complained
that they suffervd from the number of able-bodied paupers.
Here was the same most strange anomaly. One party stated
that they had not a sufficient number of workmen to perform
the necessary labour, and other members of the same party
complained of the expense they incurred in maintaining a num-
ber of able-bodied paupers.—(Hear, hear.) Able-bodied
-setters and protection seemed to have the same affinity as
- -`•sruical bodies. Monopoly and pauperism seemed
some et- • u.ar.) He could not account for it in any
inseparable.—t ••• • - greatest amount of protection was so
other way than when isle
erism ensued. He defied any
rat
destructive of industry, that p,.
`;ve interest was mains
one to show him where a great proteen
-
tained, that there were not great numbers bodied of at'le m
pau-
pers. Ile believed able-bodied paupers must exist fro the
created a
nefarious system in the West Indian colonies._
elt
free
men,
and
re-
pugnance on the part of the proprietors to mak
free men, as they were called, were, in point of fact, to a
great extent, slaves. He very much doubted whet her the
was
con-
ditions implied in the servitude of the \N eat Indian negro _
not inconsistent with the spirit of the Emancipation Act, and
at variance with the rights and privileges which that Act gave
the negro a right to claim. Another reason assigned by the
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies for the present de-
pression in the West India colonies, was absenteeism on the
part of the proprietors.
Hsaid that the system was going on
to such an extent, that it was in vain to hope for an improve-
ment ; and he further said, that these colonies would not be
productive under any system of protection
lived away from
and monopoly. The
great i
great bulk of the West India proprietors
their estates—they were perfcclv ignorant of all the branches
of industry, and who had been employed in the cultivation of
of their own
their estates. They knew nothing interests, and the
pour negroes were left at the
mercy of heartleis overseas,
to get as much toil out of
and attorneys, whose only desireld was .
Manufacturers, agricultu-
the poor wretches as they cou
rists, distillers, and chemists, are all great connected, in a
de-
gree, with the growth of the sugar-cane. lie would ask his
Hon. Friend the Member fur Stockport whether, if he 'were
print-works to be conducted
to reside in Vienna, and leave
Prinnot fluid it impossible,
by some overseer or attorney, he would • .
however favourable might be markets am prices, to secure a
-
proper return for his capital. such, he said, was the condition
They levied money from their
of the 'd eest.lndia planters.
estates, and unlike the English
landed
superintendence of a proprietors, thewho
y
did not
tenant
place those estates under the their case the same per-
felt an interest in its prosperity.
son was landlord, tenant, manufacturer, distiller, and in
n they came to that
many instances merchant ; and • ' ,I,s
business was not
House and told them that their
profitable, and asked them to levy a large con-
tribution from the great body
f the perple, for the
purpose of enabling them to themeet deficiencies which had
been created by this absurd and injurious management. No
man could deny that there was
considerable force in this ob-
servation; and he would not claim sn
not in his favour, amongst others,
the Noble Lord the Secre•
he sorry to see the Hon.
tary fur the Colonies. He should
Member for Weymouth (Mr.
Bernal) obliged to change his
residence in Jamaica ; he
agreeable house in Eaton-place for
should regret the loss of his society, and his being subjected to
an unpleasant climate ; but he confessed he saw no hope fur the
West India body, unless those who were the owners of estates
either attended to them themselves, or leased them to those
who would have the same interst in
them as the proprietors.
If no tenant could be found to act
as
a substitute for the pro-
better state of
prietor, there was then no hope for
a his loins, and thingswent
unless the proprietor girded UP
out to his own property to manage his own busi-
ness. —( Hear, hear.) It was of no use to be dancing
attendance on the colonial-office, to be pr aying for this privi-
lege and that favour.--( Hear, hear.) Nothing remained but
to adopt a better system of managernest, a more economical
application of labour, and an improved system of cultivation.—
( Hear.) Lord Elgin, the Governor-General, had stated that the
adoption even of such a primitive machine as the plough would
make a difference of fifty per cent in the amount of production.

—( Hear. hear.) Yet they were still to be told that there was
nothing to be done for the West India colonies except through
prntectien anti monopoly. Where was the use of an abundant
supply of manual labour, if that labour was not made productive
by the nee of mach very ? It was the argument of those a-4
undertook to regulate the how, of labour in the msnufseturieis
districts, that if they could not obtain the use of manual labour
for so long a period as they had been eccustoteed to do. they
must make up for it by an inereased use of machinery.
The English manufacturers were ensb!rd to in .intain their o-
sition in the market. of Europe. not by the eaten• of they
manual labour, hut because they brought machinery to the aid
of labour, so as to make that labour more productive. That
they must do in the West Indies—( Heir, hear)—and 1 e had
observed in the Jamaica journals a very sensible speech of a
Captain Dillon, who had endeavoured to inculcate into the
minds of his fellow-colonists the doctrine that it would be more
advisable for them to expend the colonial revenue in purchas-
ing steam-engines and machinery from England, than in en-
deavouring to promote the immigration of fresh labourers.
He believed that that was the mo,t sensible course that the co-
lonists could adopt.—( Hear, hear.) For the last three (lento..
ries there had not been the slightest improvement in the culti-
vation of sugar in the colonies. He believed that the steam-en-
gine would be found to be a most beneficial aid to labour in the
West India colonists—( Hear, hear)—for at present they
adopted precisely the same system of cultivation which they
had adopted three centuries ago, when the slave-trade was in
existence.—( Hear. ) He was afraid that the West Indians
were not inclined to adopt the principle of the British manu-
facturers, and to apply machinery for the purpose of making
labour more productive.—( Hear, hear.) He hod lately seen
an excellent article on this subject in a colonial paper of great
merit and influence—the West Indian, in which the editor
said that. it was the duty of the West India colonists to devote
their attention to the introduction of machinery for the
purpose of tliedering labour more productive. This was d prin-
ciple which the West India colonists too much neglected.
To show how averse the West India proprietors were to make
their industry productive. he would mention one fact. A rail-
' way had been projected between Kingston and Spanish- town.
It was well known that a great portion of the labourers of the
West Indies were employed in transporting—in conveying pro.
duce from one place to another. When the railway to which
he had referred was proposed, not a single gentleman who had
been protected, who said that protection stimulated individuals,
not one gave their countenance to the proposal for the rail-
way. Who were the parties who took up the proposition,
and who found funds for making the railway ? They were
persons who had no confidence in protection, but who looked
forward to the adoption of free trade. Who looked forward to
exposing the West India proprietors to a free competition with
the produce of the world—those were the parties who had
found the money to make the railway from Kingston to
Spanish-town. Why, if the West India proprietors had faith
in their principles, they would have come forward to support this
railway. Perhaps they believed that protection was about to
cease, then why not give it up at once, instead of keeping trade
and manufactures in a state of suspense and anxiety? But he
believed that the West India proprietors were enervated by
protection. Ile believed that the only reason that this project
was not adopted by colonial proprietors, but left
so free traders to accomplish, was, that they
were enervated by monopoly. He thought this
was a most important fact, and one that oueht not to he for-
gotten. There was nothing which told so much with Members
of Parliament and the Britiils public as plain and stubborn
facts ; and he thought, front the facts he had stated, the pub-
-1 e would see that there were some grounds for the assertion
which had been made on that side of the House, that monopoly
had enervated the West India proprietors, and it required but
the solid principles of competition to give them prosperity.
Now, he would not dwell longer upon this branch of the ques-
tion, because if the position he maintained werea good one, fur-
ther areument would be unnecessary, and the House would be
convinced that the importers in this country had as good a rieht
to every advantage in this trade as the growers in the Wt st
Indies. His plan he rested on the broad basis of justice, and he
would say that this House could n t interfere will any show of
justice with this trade or continue this protective system. He
would contend fur it that the Government should withdraw
this protection, in order to do equal justice to all her Majesty's
subjects. But he knew that this doctrine was not at all pa-
latable to many Members of that House, although there did
not appear upon the face of it an act of injustice to the free .
trader of this country. But let him take a short view of the
case. lie would ask, did they increase the imp irt a of this
country by this continual protection to the West Indies ? He
should limit himself to tee West Indies, because the late Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade, in answer to the Honourable
Member for Taunton, on the Brszilian question, said
that his plan of protection was not intended for the Mau-
ritius or for British India, but for the West Indies,
therefore he would confine his argument to the West
Indies, and he would ask have the imports increased ? Ile
would take the period previous to the emancipation of the
slaves, and he would contend for it that the production was de-
creasing for many years previous to 1834, when
the emancipation intik place. It appeared, then,
that imports from the West Indies had been gradually &crew,.
ing though the growers hail all the advantages of the monopoly
and slave-labour.—( Hear, hear. ) For it must not be forgotten
that these protective duties were enacted when they were
owners of slaves themselves, and when their colonists were em-
players of slave-labour ; it must not be forgotten that these pro-
tective duties did not originate from the new theory or policy
that had been laid down, that they were to consult moral and
philanthropic considerations when regulating their taxes and
du ins. Ile repeated that these duties were enacted when they
were *lave owners themselves; and at that time, when the West
India colonies had all the advantages they then possessed,
their imports were gradually falling off. And what had been
the mime since? Notwithstanding the vast increase in the po-
pulation, notwithstanding the great augmentation in the de-
mand for sugar, in order to insure the comfort of the
working classes, the imports had been nearly stationary.
It might have varied from year to year, but he be-
lieved he was correct in stating that the quantity im-
ported in 1834, the very year in which they emancipated
their slaves, was greater than in the year 1844, or in the last
year in which the account was made up. He believed the
Right Hun. Gentleman, the first Minister of the Crown,
stated there had been no material increase in the import of
sugar. When they considered the vast increase in the popu-
lition, what a deficiency there must be when they divided that
limited supply among the greater number of persons, and how
ranch smaler a share fell to the poorer classes of the commu-
nity ? Those who were in the enjoyment of independent and
comfortable incomes would not diminish their consumption of
sugar, but in the division of a smaller quantity among a greater
number, depend on it the comforts of the working classes
must be materially diminished. How unreasonable was it to
doubt that a great evil was inflicted on the community, by
confining the supply of sugar to their colonies alone? And
with the exception of a small quantity, the whole that
was consumed last year was supplied from the Colonies.
But the consumption of this country was mainly confined to
the produce of our own colonies. According to the foreign
Price Currents, the average price of sugar on the Continent
was 21s. per cwt., whilst in this country it was 345., making a
difference of 13s. per cwt. The quantity of sugar consumed
here was 207,000 tons per annum. But the difference of 13s.
per cwt. made a difference of 13/. per too, and that upon
207,00 J tons amounted to 2,600.000/.—( Hear.) So that the
sugar consumed in,this country last year cost 2,600,000/. more
than the same quantity would have cost if purchased on the
Continent.—( Hear, hear. ) Did they call this legislating for
the poorer classes ?—(lleer. ) Was this acting in accordance
with the recommendation of the Queen in her speech from the
throne, that they should consider the wants of the agricultural
labourers and the poorer classes ?—( Hear.) Did they uphold
the doettine that the British artisan must pay 13/. per ton
ueon his sugar because we had large colonial posses-
sions in the West Indian Islands ? He thought they were
mocking the sufferings of the working classes, and were humi-
hating themselves in the eyes of the world.—( Hear.) Th, y
were always professing sympathy with the working classes,
and talking of cutting down the public expenditure, and other-
wise doing everything to relieve the tax-payers in this country ;
arid then upon a vague statement that certain abstract propo-
sitions could not be practically applied, they exposed them-
selves to the charge of mocking the miseries of the people,
whom they professed to be anxious to relieve.—( hear, hear. )
He would contend that protection had not been of the slightest
benefit to the manufacturers. Why the exports to the Wes,
Indies were greater twenty years ago than they were now. In
1794 the exports to the West Indies were £3,632,7:32
In 1x04...... 4.281,7.i5
In 1829 ...... ......... ... 3,61,2,000
In 1842 2,391,425
In 1843...
If they compared the exports of 1804 and those in 1843, it
would appear that while they were over 4,0, 0.000/. in the for-
mer year, they were otsly upwards of 2,000,000/. in the latter.
—( Hear, hear.) What benefit, then, was protection to them ?
Why should they pay more to the West Indian, when he
did not pay more for his bale of cotton in
Manchester than the Brazilian ? (Cries of " Hear, hear,")
He asked whether he had not made out his case ? He had
shown that this tax was not for the benefit of the revenue, for
whilst they were inflicting a grievous burden on the con-
sumers, only a portion of the tax went into the public ex-
chequer, and another portion into the pockets of individuals;
therefore that could not be said to be for the revenue which, in
point of fact, defrauded the revenue. He had shown it was
not. for the benefit of our import trade, because it had by no
means increased under it. He had shown them it was not for
the advantage of our export trade, because our trade with the
colonies had been a stationary trade, and had shown no dispo-
sition to favourably influence production. lie had shown them
it was not fir consistency, because the Right Hon. Baronet
had, a few evenings ago, proposed to admit some foreign and
colonial produce on the same terms. He had, in short, shown
them that the present system was at sari mce with sound prin-
ciples—principles admitted and recognised by the first Minister
of the Crown, which had received the sanction of the House of
Commons, and which were laid down by the most philosophic
statesmen and the ablest and most practical political econo-
mists. It was an arbitrary taxation imposed upon the people
of this country by the mere force of numbers in that House,
and for which they received no adequate return—no practical
explanation.—(Cries of " Hear hear.") Such was the
position which he was entitled to take on this question,
unless it could be proved that his arguments were fallacious.
And if his reasons were fallacious—if he had asserted
anything—if he had assumed anything which he was not en-
titled to assume—if he had been in any way misled—he called
upon his opponents for a refutation.—( Hear, hear.) But, as
a Member of Parliament, representing a large and important
manufacturing district, a great body of the industrious classes,
he was entitled to ask them, if they failed in this refutation, to
' desist from this unwise system of legislation.--( Hear, and
cheers.) And he would be further entitled to ask them to de-
sist at once, because a more appropriate time than the present
could not be desired.—( Hear, hear.) The Government were
bound by their ordinary supporters, and whether the Adminis-
trationgoßr,ae.rnaotni
mind
ti
onweresndho should,
Whig iuighngothoewrtr
etelovs'
etocsrr.;_:attetat
Iseliyde rte,
accordinghrh the trammels
aalikert
Theheset rdaoi restrained eai
party,
aei byirs
Right
yo,tHfhaoohnsni
des.
he
' though he might find himself deserted in bringing forward a great
and permanent plan for the final settlement of the sugar question,
he would be applauded by the virtue and intelligence of the coun-
try. He was unwilling to inflict any injustice on the West
India interests. If his proposal had the slightest tendency to-
, wards inflicting any injustice on West India proprietors, he
declared he would not have brought it forward ; but because
he believed that the interests of the producers, the interests of
the consumer., the interests of the merchants, of the revenue,
of all classes, would be benefited by the total abolition of these
t differential duties, he brought forward his motion. They
had been told that foreign eountries were more restrictive than
Great Britain, and that this would be a greater sacrifice—at all
events, the sacrifice of but the few for the many, and they would
do what foreigners had not done. There might be some truth
in that ; but whatever foreigners were doing, the light had
broken in upon us, and it was a miserable argument to say that,
because some narrow-minded foreign Governments advocated
restriction, that this great commercial country should be in-
fluenced by their example.—( Hear, hear. ) But had they not
some examples of the contrary among foreigners? Take the
ease of the Dutch Government. At the twesent moment the
Dutch Government were admitting sugar and coffee, the pro-
duce of Java, on the same terms as they admitted the produee
of Brazil anti Cuba. And what was the practical result of this
fair competition ? That the sugar produced by flee labour in
Java w t.s gradeally increasing during a long period of years.
under Ale influence if competition, and that, from 1826 t 0183.1,
it had increased from 29,227 tons to 1,0.10,eG0 tons, aithough
it was exposed to full competition with the sugar of Brazil and
of Cuba.—(l-lear, ,hear.) That was a case which might
satisfy them that free-labour sugar could compete with slave-
grown. He wished to see the emancipation of the: slaves
carried out in all parts of the world; and the Government

shonid net t.aniei .n the dangerous doctriee that free nisn could
not produce a: well .:d as much as •-1 Hear. hear.)
Ile thanked the Ilou e f a the patier.eit wit's obi: b 'bey had
herd him, and concluded by move g Tolle e et, amend-
were :—" That no arrangement oc the sugar 'kyle, will he
iatitft•c'crl and pertnanete .chick etees not ei,eive an equalisa.
tier! of ,or von 'eriege and col ietel sugar "
Mr. EWA RT complonett•ed ,he Hen. Ge, tivrnO on the
secret: he h made. and thought the subject c.,u'd reit have
been entrust, dto abler hinds. free-trade prlncieles were
eyes). day peegres:ing, and the fact ought to he remembered
that, whilst or foreign trade va, incr. asittg. the colonial trade
was statienary. l'he Ueited Stars c otried on twic a, er,at
trade with Cuba as this country, in conserpienite of these re-
strictions. The trade with South America and Chins ought
to be now im.netise ; but the large duty en tea crippled our
commerce with China, whilst those wretched distinctions be-
tween slave and free-grown sugar, almost annihilated one great
department of trade with South America. The great eman-
cipator of slavery was commerce; anti the merchant, of L•ver-
pool had done more to abolish slavery on the coast of southern
Africa. by their trading than the cruisers and war vessels who
were employed there. Nothing could more effectually call out
the energies and develop the resources of the West Indies than
competition. Since the first sound of rivalry was heard, their
resources had undergone greater development and improve-
ment than for years previously. A more intricate and com-
plicated scheme than that proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet
could not well be devised, and the Goverewnent would find it
neeesslry to leg.slate in a bold and comprehensive manner on
Mae subject. The present scheme could not have proceeded
from the master-mind of the Right Hon. Baronet, he rather
thought it was the proposal of the Right Hen. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. If this duty could not be sacrificed, which
he believed it could without a loss to the revenue, he would
prefer an increase of the property-tax to its continuance. The
present arrangement would not suppress the slave-trade—would
not advance the interests of the West Indian colonists—did not
settle the question, but left it in the same :tate of perpetual
agitation. Discriminating duty was a bad i.rinciple, and its
effects told injuriously in every possible manner. An ad
valorem duty had proved highly injurious to commerce. In-
flueeced by these reasons, he could have no hesitation in
seconding the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester.
Mr. JAMES—As a Wert India proprietor he, last session,
made an appeal to the justice and sympathy of the House on
behalf of the distressed interest he represented, and he was
happy to find now that that appeal had nut been made in vain.
—( lieu.) And he now felt great. pleasure in offering his
most respectful thanks to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of her Majesty's Government, for the relief that he felt it con-
sistent with his public duty to offer to the West India pro-
prietors.—( Hear.) Whether that relief would be sufficient
to enable those proprietors to cultivate their estates to any
profitable accoun•, he would not say ; but it would et least
prevent heavy losses to those men who kept their estates in
cultivation in the h ape of better time s.—( Hear.) With regard
to Ida Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, he (Mr. James)
would say he gave him credit for the best intentions in bring-
ing forward this motion, and felt convinced that his only
object was doing good to the public by trying to get them
cheap sups ; but it occurred to him (Mr. James), that the
Hon. Member had not been very particular as to the means
by which he proposed to effect this object.—( A laugh.)
Now, he begged to remind tbe lion. Member, that if the
proposition of the Government be carried, it would give sugar
to the consumer at about l is, 3d. per cwt. less than they hail
it now. But if the Government took away the present
existing protection, he could assure the Hon. Member and
that. House that the effect would be to increase to a greater
extent than eeer, all the tortures and horrors of the slave-
trade. The Hon. Member had said, he would not now enter
upon any discussion of the slave-trade ; but he (Mr. James)
would not see how that could be avoided ; it was a most im-
portant feature in the discussion; and not to allude to it would
he like leaving out the part of Hamlet. The Hon. Member
had spoken of the relief of 2,300,000/. that the growers would
receive; he (fir. James) hoped they would ; but he feared
it was very unlikely. As to what the Hon. Member had said
about ab'entee proprietors, he (Mr. James) agreed with him,
that estates were much better managed where the proprietors
resided on theta ; but he could scarcely be called one, as
his son was constantly resident on his estate.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear.") But even so, if they were all resident pro-
riet. re, still, without the relief proposed by the Right Hon
Baronet oporesitss, they could not cultivate their estates without
loss. The Ho, Nletnber had spoken of the cost of produce ;
now be would put a case. There were many manufacturers
in :Manchester who paid thousands of pounds per week in
giving employment to labourers ; but what. would the Hon.
Member think of allowing into competition with those mer-
chants other merchant: who paid nothing at all for such labour?
--( Hear, hear. ) Those manufacturers of Manchester pro-
duced their goods by using the whip on their horses—
An lION. IVIENIFIER—As the West India proprietors did on
their slaves.

Mr. JANIES—Yes, he admitted that such had been the
practice; hut if this protection were withdrawn, the slave-
trade would become worse than ever ; but he felt aisured that
there was too touch justice and fair dealing to be had in that
Hou,e to let him imagine for a moment that it would sanction
the proposition of the Hon. Member, which lie had almost
said would be an iniquitous proceeding, but it certainly would
be a most unjust one. It was true that the West India pro-
prietors had had compensation for the emancipation of their
slaves ; but they had had none for their lands ; and everybody
knew that land without labour would he of no more u,e to the
proprietor, than would the mills of Manchester be, if the use of
machinery was prohibited ?—( Hear.) Really this was a ques-
tion so plain that the injustice of the Hon. Member's proposi-
tion was such, that he could hardly speak of it with patience.—
( A laugh.) Me lion. Member had spoken of the cost of
producing sugar ; now he (Mr. James) begged to say that the
cost of producing a hogshead of sugar in Jamaica was double
that of Cuba and the Braeils ; and, therefore, if the West India
proprietors were to be put in competition with those,!the result
would be their utter ruin. Those were the reasons that com-
pelled him to say he should support the motion of the Right
lion. Baronet.

Mr. RICARDO—If he felt disposed to follow the example
of the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he, too, could
establish a grievance, by complaining of the hardships his con-
stituents would labour under by the proposed removal of the
duties on certain articles of manufacture which it had been
stated would be proposed this session by the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite. This grievance would be particularly felt by
permitting Fraoce to compete with his constituents in the
articles of coal, clay, and iron-stone.—( Hear, hear.) But his
constituents would not complain of it ; they would rather re•
main silent on the subject, and rely on their own industry and
resources to meet the effect of this competition.—( Hear,
hear.) But, he would ask, why should this protection be
taken from so extensive a branch of the home trade, and
be still continued to those West India merchants ?—( Hear. )
He really could not see why they should be made an exception
to all these commercial arrangements.—( Hear, hear.) There
had been no temporising or delay in reference to East India
cotton when it was proposed to abolish the duty on the raw ma-
terial—( Hear )—and, therefore, he would say, that if even there
was an amendment proposed to that House, which, more than
another, warranted the use of strong language, it was that which
had been proposed by the llon. Member for Manchester to the
resolution of the Hon. Baronet opposite.—( Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. Ricardo) had heard a great deal about differential duties ;
and he found by the Right Hon. Baronet's proposition that
there were no fewer than nineteen different duties proposed
upon sugar; but he (Mr. Ricardo) would defy the Hon. Ba-
ronet, or any other Member of that House, to state what those
differences were—where the brown-clay sugar began, and the
white-clay ended.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then
read extracts from some letters he had received on this subject,
in one of which the writer said it would be impossible for the
Government officers here to distinguish between elayed and
unclaved sugar ; and in the other It was stated that if
the 'proposed measure of the British Minister were
carried, every bag of sugar, to the amount of
700,000 in each year, should be stspped and an
officer be prepared to apply a test to it.—( Hear, hear. )
He then continued by saying, it had been said that great
sacrifices had been made by the West India proprietors ; now,
it appeared to him that much greater sacrifices had been mad*
by the people of England, because the price of sugar in bond
in this country was 345., while on the Continent it Was only
20e., thereby showing that. the people of England sacrificed
14s. per cwt. on this article alone, by the present " protec-
t ve" sys em, as it had been called.—( Hear, hear.) In fact,
greater sacrifices were made by the English consumers under
:he new system than under the old.—( Hear, hear.) It would
be much better for the Right Hon. Baronet, instead of coming
down to that House and asking them to continue the income-
tax, to announce his intention of 'educing the duty on suaars.
It would riot involve a greater loss than 4 00 ',OOO/ , hut the
increased consumption in the commodity would not only
amply supply the deficiency, but enable the Right lion.
Baronet to dispense altogether with the income-tax.—( Hear. )
No doubt, if the Right Honourable Baronet were to adopt this
course, he would have considerable grumbling from Hun.
Gentlemen behind him, anti perhaps angry speeches from
lion. Gentlemen on both sides, but let him depend for support
upon the publie, a ho alone could maintain him in the position
he at present held.—(Cheers.) He did hope the West India
proprietors would see the necessity of yielding in time, and
trusting like the English manufacturers to their own resources.
and thus talsify the absurd system of protection. Let them
yield now in the time of prosperity what, sooner or later, the
necessities of the people would snatch Irons their hands.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had inveighed a rood deal against the pro-
tection afforded to our colonies. Now, he should like to know
what sort of a reception the Hon. Member would receive if
he were to go down to Stoke-upon-Trent, and propose to his
constituency the abolition of the protective duties afforded
to the manufacturers of this country.—( Hear, hear.)
The questions of the reductions in cotton anti other duties must
be considered on their own grounds, and taken separately; and
upon the same principle they ought to discuss the protection
afforded to certain branches of trade. They ought to look to
the particular situation of the West India colonists, and to see
whether it was net advisable that protection should be con-
tinued to them. It certainly was necessary to continue pro-
tection to this great interest, because it not only formed a large
market for our manufactures, but a very considerable capital
was invested in it. He would admit to the Hon. Gentleman
that the protective system might be carried too tar. It would
be unwise to attempt to bolster up manufacturers with protec•
Lion, which was not, naturally speaking, in keeping with the
circumstances of the country. But it became a very different
thing when they established duties to protect the domestic in-
terests of the country. It by no means followed either, that
protection should be given to every article in the same degree,
and he could, therefore, perfectly understand that some interests
would derive little or no advantage from an excessive
protection. Previous to the passing of the Emancipation Act
the West India colonies were enabled to produce not only
sufficient sugar to supply this country, but they not unfre•
quently exported large quantities to other countries. In 1839,
however, the produce of sugar fell off two millions eight hun-
dred thousand pounds, owing to the emancipation of the native
labourers ; and until the year 1842, the produce of the West
India colonies was reduced to its minimum. He believed that
the quantity of sugar which would be sent over from the West
India islands this year would show a very considerable increase
upon the supply of former years. He would ask the House
and Hon. Members opposite whether, after having commenced
a great experiment in 1838. the success of which had since ex-
ceeded every expectation, it was advisable or politic now to
abolish that protection, at a moment when the sugar planters
of our colonies were on the eve of overcoming those difficulties
which had resulted from the Emancipation Act ?—( Cheers. )
He was aware that there were a certain number of gentlemen
in that House extreme advocates of free trade ; but he was
aware, from the result of a similar motion proposed in 1843,
that some of them were not prepared to go the extreme length
of declaring that the differential duties offered to
our West India islands should be at once abolished.
Nor did he think, from the appearance of the House, the Hon.
Member for Manchester had reason to hope that he would be
supported by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of Lon-
don, and the other Members that usually voted with him. The
Hon. Member for Manchester had stated that it made no dif-
ference to the consumer whether the duty was 15s. or 30a• ;
but he (Sir George Clerk), would be glad to know if the
inhabitants of Manchester or Stoke-upon-Trent were of the
same opinion. fur it was the first time that he had heard that
there was no difference between 15s. and 30s. The lion Mem-
ber for Manchester had wished to represent that the evil of
the \Vest Indies was, that they were giving low wages, and
that no inducements were held out to the emancipatedeegro to
remain upon his native soil. Another evil was, , that they
bed
an antii.athy to any new mode of cultivation, oss. he (tair
Clerk) had alwars understood that the reverse was the case, snit
he was at a loss ro under-tand from what quarter the I-!oa.
Member received his information. At present the negro received
2s. per day, instead of m formerly Os. g; 7l per week i and

the complaint la-I 1 •ther isiou. that too hish wage hat' !I ~
l ban
tics, on argon it: t' e ;sr, ,efe,.,„1., .f „ No; ing, a it'ho
I tstere sssr say West tntia goan'emen ip the 110eVoe.,
halt the m sioi tIITI. 10 p seas .asee tbt.itt ain the V,'"'‘i sstae
they mit-t has-, been al-, •urt.ri•erl Ti) have Ilea d 'lle
more
lion. Gstitleit.an ilsci •re ti•a• thy i•ught to be in a re,,
flourishing p•isitain •ow titan they were in former tl,°_„Dt
Vs'estevsr th-. lien. Ment'ter might ,ilillk, there was le il:"_.,,
but that of late the bills (hewn upon West India proprit!°.ii;
had greatly exeeedsd in amount the produce of l'ilil,
estates. But lie believed in the present year. fre4 ,
information he had received, that the •ui r would ',be
much mire superior to what is had beet, in form' t'e'ar ber
the planter was likely to derive a profit. The lion. M boa
for Stoke•upon-Trent said the condition of the West
,1,10
proprietors was becoming worse arid worse every day ; an „0•
beet thing they could do, therefore, was to abandon theloo,
tection altogether. Now, he should like to ask the ate
Itlemillor for Manchester, and the Hon. Member for 0
upon- t rent, what would be the result if such a course
adopted ? Why Cuba would have a monopoly in then ise
market; and the British colonies, which formed an ex 4,
-market for the manufacturers of this country, would bent
iivt to
But this was not all; they would hold out an encouragear. lot
slavery, and all the efforts which had been made for tildr
erej
six years to destroy this abominable traffic would be r‘eereleete
utterly useless. Now, he would ask flon• I%iof get'
whether it was wise or politic, for the sake ,
~,, ta,
ting sugar a little cheaper, they would denli'eleies•
important an interest as our West India ° alas
Thiless they continued a protection to the West Indio iota
nies, they would throw a monopoly of the supply of °Tar bell
the hands of the growers of Cuba and Braeil. It eras col"'
to turn round oe the West Indies, and say that
ithef'or their,
nies had always been a drag upon this country, win'''. ear oa•,
monopoly, was obliged to pay two or three millions ssy osett
of the packets of the artisans and labouring population °mow
sarily. It would be infinitely better to say, as the 11°Tseotage
ber for Bath had maintained, that it would be to the adds pore
of this country if the whole of the West India isle
sr, war
blotted from the map of the world. He was certain t"
isewe
not the opinion of that House with regard to colonialjat the
sions.—( Year, hear. ) The Hon. Gentleman talked auhaed $lO,
export trade of this country. Mat Sir G. Clerk) w Isla
Right Hon. Member would loon at the returns an ,is or
before them, and see how large a proportion of the fileis co'
fifty-eight millions of their exports went annually to t,,e,the
lonia' possessinns—( Hear, hear ) including the East Inro'eies,
West Indies, anti their North American °slather
( Hear, hear.) Ile thought the Honourable ° eeri,
would find that one-fifth of their whole 04°111011g/
taken by the colonies.—( Hear, hear.) And let them re , 1101
that this was a trade secured to them—a trade that
with
actions
liable to any interruptions by misunderstandings witniactielli
nations, from jealousies on their part, exhibited in the !,-,1 on bs''
of foreign tariffs ;—( Hear, hear)—it was a trade earrtrecoliey
and with the subjects of this country, and they Mast to
whist
the!
that it was by the possession of that colonial empire t esielt
were alone enabled to secure that commercial Instil whieb,
was the foundation of their magnificent navy, Asan• e/ 'll
enabled them to keep that navy in such a state of avert 10
to maintain their maritime supremacy. No nation t, 'sob!
not the advantage of holding distant possessions woulateeetcoo,
able to keep up a naval marine on the scale and eileTnoesa i
made our navy so efficient a defence of the empire. -` ease"
the West India colonies being such a drag and income,red fel,
this country as to induce them to wish to see them bt°lo woo;
the map of the world, he contended that the loss of theef track
be an injury to this country, not confined to the los!iieos o'o
with those islands, to the amount of two or three to" nitill'
nually, bat that less would strike a blow against their rarseeoseett
power and supremacy from which the nation could neverhat 'best
Now, the Hon. Member for Manchester had seated t d tl3,
imports from the West Indies had fallen oft aecreoico
their exports to the West Indies had not of rest
But the Hon. Member had taken a Ye4T f, - }the
colonial prosperity, and compared it wit" ,ill .se
of remarkable depression. They had legislated ,eesoft_,
consequences of that legislation had been that the protflogosPor
West India Islands had fallen off from 200,000 tons esporttise
nually to 100,000 tons; and it could not be but thei o"se
this country to those colonies must have fallen off vl'helth'iy
principles the Hon. Gentlemen opposite thetoselve: colt',,
colonies could only give for the exports of tVtbe frit
the articles they themselves produced; and 1 boll' ed
duce of the West Indies had diminished onenesscliiirts
was only remarkable that the exports of our int.alesget,ist•
goods consumed there had not fallen off its a mu", es-teti',o3
port ion.—( Hear, 'liar.) But he (Sir G. Clerk) `rditiori. ter
in proportion as the West Indies improved in eented ee,gos,
were better supplied with labour, or the emanciPste cult rot
themselves applied more diligently and regularly to I,_ 0.0 il.o
thin of the estates, they should see a great increase lonoioePsio
duce of those islands. and as a consequence, an impr Tbe 'irto
the export of manufactures from this country'sbioefi,ece
causes had operated against the introduction of Ma'teeee.,..,l ite
the colonies to the same extent that would ha," so ol'r to
under other circumstances. The Hon. Goill'emcepan-er
had said 'hat the West Indian proprietors had no iriluee Ova;
improve the process of sugar making, so as to rev' t bad the"
pense of the manufacture ; he said that no atteoloarl 01
made to introduce machinery, and he would have inard of ;,st,
to believe that the steam-engine had never been lie teirti,lie
he (Sir G. Clerk) rather thought that as long Veit loyefo•
ago machinery was extensively used in the '.' e teStioste
( Hear, hear)—and he had visited a very eaten, ''foltieh retie
In
tory on the ether side of Westminster-bridge, salt of seat)'
was not only one, but a whole establishrient lesr,iiiiest)
engines prepared for the West Indian market.-4 Hear, „son'
There was a total want of capital in the islanAdlietntliaoirngs;eif:shitelliii
—and that fact must have a considerable influeneeear for Pod
dition. Yet he believed, though the Hon.
fries hod spoken of their being in a state of
by monopoly and a want of competition—thatheir 4'
West India proprietors, notwithstanding , their
,i '
did not pay their outgoings, were, out " could boll
tal, sending out every improvement tharrotroso_oil
made, in, he might almost call it, the to sr:eto::
that, in time, those improvements might lea" msoc'', lc',
of prosperity. He wished the Hon. Member for stoul:!000'
who seemed so familiar with Mr. Porter's book, joril sill
at what that gentleman stated with respect to tht sholet ill
improvements, and he would find that there wastesea,,,io,
branch of the manufacture for which patents were . 40;40!
this country, that were not adopted by persons all'ererae'reoot
prove their estates. They might not have tha'a tiv ,ItIA
capital which, it seemed, oppressed Manchester °esti, ssool,
so much that it had gone over to the West Indio!' e of r'' ell
Hon. Member had stated, had constructed a I:ist 1'1°,40
between Spanish Town and Kingston ; but that the
extended a distance of ten or twelve miles, so 1,,,.s
"e co' rer
of money had not been so considerable. in- bat belle!,
had not invested money in that line' be h'',
haps they. thought their capital might stioo Clyr ft
employed in enlarging and extending the cultic pass flo,:r
sugar, and the produce of the cane. The Flon'and tbs., ,i
Cumberland, the Hon. Member for Dumfries, disett•fyjell,
Itlemjiter for Stoke-upon-Trent, had gone into soot. olb
the plan which it was the intention of his Right Eoo° It'll
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to submit, '5; conitrepleo,
House should agree to the motion for going into it es ~,t lot,
of Supply. But, in the first place, he thought, of t" rtee',:S
unfair to attempt to discuss detached polti,etube opllseeeet
until his Right Hon. Friend should have hod
if depeedesee„
of stating it fully, and showing the bearing in' aot Oh, srh-0
one part of that plan upon the other. He would
„y Of t 00,1
to anticipate any of those details, by answering as-a'asil)nbre Isesj,
ments of the Hon. Metnbers for Stoke-upon-Tremtbe NO,lO ei
nor would it be fair to go into the discussion)oootice rlesite..o
the Member for the City of London had given a the iTorcl"
nesday) during that Noble Lord's absence, an
,able ' ill
many of the Hon. Members by whom the ' ficiak
supported. en) ere
Mr. HAWES (pointing to the vacant place' (Ile on
of the Treasury bench )—They are absent too. eatletespethre,
Mr. G. CLERK had no doubt the absent gfor Italy sitile
very ably represented by the Hon. Member, be slatted
(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—but he thoughlaele be CO
with him that, in the absence of the
o..ipld lion os
Member for the City of London, it,. disco'hich ,ei,
improper to anticipate any part of thy, to ;!sloesleete
the two important points with reaper ' for i what iv.
Noble Lord had put a notice on the books right 0e046
Under the circumstances, therefore, he had le iloo-ti to los
to go into any answer to the statements of they relatecialli 01,r
men opposite on the present occasion. a, tore oPewhofiej he
de-ails of his Right Hon. Friend's plan, 111 Trent's con' Ole,
speech of the Hon. Member for Stoke-uPOn; which tone ol
servations went minutely into those dela" 'oiorlY oleo" IV
discussed with advantage only „ he, rertg..ti tee 11.! ve.ti be
House. He would not trespass any fill the "it ha' eico'r,if
hat elf $
the 11.-us-. He had endeavoured to show l, s, an sire /
policy which this country had ever actiql en,
op, foebotio°oo
trusted, it would always continue to a's of th• et eriach
amount of protection to the domestic ind .7
"torsite 0105 beti,eo
( 'Tear.) However Hon. Gentlemen oPELhteh it, 01‘ _ e
against protection and the principles on nee, stine/ tb,eloste
however they might select souse extreme ,_;!..tance,lo ell stop
if they would attempt the cultivation, for."le soils „soneel
plant, or some other production to which tnro'f it the er of sob
were not adapted, by giving the growers. ~ , boe sts,tto
of high duties on the foreign importe 01;4 loolthoiiosi'l ,
might take such an extreme case, th Y. .04 at, tb 0;4
by itself, and then he thought that in th,es'utveratae,le, heeoti
Ilan. Friend the head of her Majesty's ti
tive Pritle'll ettrelllsi
he was prepared to maintain the prate!'
__ cearge_ilery ,ese.4.
carefully looked into the amount of ttuT,,rdipg e t the 1.0 tlS°.
article of general use, with the view ofauestiele"aajollb:st th,i's
tion of those duties which would give the
~bast 1 j t 4
and cheapest price to the censumers,
.vr"coasitte': 0041
rfeetlY cocain 01,4
trade of the country. He was Pe i pro to 1
sudden withdrawal of the fair amount 0 thesely of
as much injury as the continuaneeuf eionorl:og ellioiooto
of any of the old and exploded system's!. hots!' concea lbt
existed a century ago, for the purpose.""
.ay' 300, frie,ooo.
branch of manufacture. He could o,iniAt flooliebt to th:
that he believed,
Chancellor of the Exchequer was Prcece of Ser
er rwtefel,
when the plan of hi.duceed, heoring. th,lo
a 'Tit' for the 'th(3 Or
a proposition that would have the en
eb cheat lest t tP,
people of this country sugar, at .t at,ue ot ii., t.,
they had ever been able to purchase it be do
_ther
.10 aou
or thirty years, and that this woof eagar,s!'ses,
o.l'.itiost,
slightest haustire to the produce
~s__ Posedwl
cwonso V
of isle
West Indian Colonies, or East Indian
',crea uenceergiste
lieved on the other hand, that the t,s__„ oases(' d etitt,e?
this country, which would be the nece.:.',..l„tius;_st C lho _
ig" he Pe 0
i that theloiDeh sr tn thO
reduction in price, would give a fresh "1"
the West Indian proprietors and /oniea, ten ii to
~re o 0 UVP ,
would be brought back to the.sa ab.e.,..is co
ce, tPi!
on an increased production in
ttahtee
theyeo ts_ 1
to 0
ootry,ei
years ago, and that they would g.il:
people otc"ugotasin tilLt
ese,,?h,alietioren.g. i‘ogliese
tvt;/,
whole of the sugar consumed by
tne
the amount of 500
might see the time when
satisfaction ois iff
ier, st
oet
ancient prosperity, and to the .
the esP°ooo,° efisol tea
might see
rds of , ta the ce dot
fiir Manchester, they
increase from 2,000,000/. to p
; fuw:uald be Or the rebes le isst
,000 ewts.olelJnisdrarntdh,
same time that a great relief
hiring it with; finitely the
.A
of sugar in this country bytP , at a price innitndpribeog s4l
poorest labourer in the counry
to nurehateerollid I tie,
at which he had ever been able_supply that
recess. oaf;
tir,
twenty or thirty years. '
hto equo. fot. ast of
for
would, he hoped, be
)Honourablee Me anent effeeinegitig recd
of this article, now becor_nrheeelo7t a Prinlietbe itt°'vsnehe'ili°
expectations of the the Perm no:ere his f thi;eihs°,°,l
He looked upon this
asGovernment , resu•- cio, -ow
measures her Majesty's be practical to.,
~.at 0,
..0
ite• '' 0 P OP !
lotion of the linn. Gentlemanras, the table'.ld "tee to I
observation ac , ? It w ; fist di 4
here made some motion • es•a•n- tee, sp.?
ward. Now, let them lookat!
oppos )
s,
to
we,
public of this
; cand re teill ° tot $-
the feeling of the
i quest.on, held e sys
ttt !els
ith:t.C.,
be the practical result of that
, otiotry ~ pose fonof
India proprietors
n Year' ag°Submit loses- to a° toe
which ceased to exist many y
popular odium on arcotunt of having uP fle thaucifiane' %tell(
ja znaycejAdd "° i' erf,
had exposed them to sevewhol
heard hiran„ccd withit theY On
unfair; those proprietor
of which the gentlemen
slit forward con „_,,_ ae
sseriiisitiO
In every question brDus,
to vohlip 0.01'2;' le p.rotlie 121;0, .
ject, they were held up !!) patio their_ l'' bopesier for
ais i
now to they were abet'
ircurottimea h metob, 0
for i
rhead.osl:d,to ~
r t
tit, 0
oil,
fiscated I Under these et• f the "cm' solutto
I t lir
origin
I...L:3Viarho'llsti
..
,t.
for
toel:0i iiii9 C 4.10
Oat. 1. 4#
and Aleato• ather Ail , too is
cheater, ouldtobtutsuwpopuolrdt tahgeremeowliotnh °the • ' al re
into a,
Co
of a_.)
Mr. C. P.
• d the lue►per Soft he ,o to to ''.,
Plied to his' lion. Frier!
test the Riht liOni
s [lousepew Jell. 'lo'
order to satisfy /faiself and the 9_•to g° ea f his 17.1
1,• This test wa
tcr.)t° d ° Isa el
jus teo of hi, °pinto. •
i
stiturrits—(' Hear, bear,
constituents, as.
trines of free ttade or 11 •
end augh approve d s 00
eSt:l4ai.hdohhead",jstort ::, d_s.al:rferte;te'oo3,
h ther they rt'an 00
• d ask them w e , bear, hes ' the
ot •—(i (n oof
S
Well if they were to decide the soulle

____,...., —..„.......--...............................--....
free-trade and the impediments to commerce by such a test, the
villNht Hon. Baronet might have enlight,:ned them from his recent
sit to his own constituents, when he submitted to teem hie
views OVI the subject of that test, as to h.,w far the electors of
tke enuntry were disposed to approve of his own
()pinions.—
(Hear, hear') The Right Hen. Baronet would see and re-
cognise his allusion to his !ate reception at Starnfor,l.—( Hear,
lahear, and laughter.) The weather was at present about the
me as then, but he did not believe that if he went
"wn there now, he would meet the Caine treatment
14 his Honourable Friend the Member for Manchester,
would do from his constituents, after his unqualified avowal of
the doctrines of free trade. He did not know if the Right
110°- Baronet had much improved his chance in the district he
represented, by submitting to the House the speech he had just
delivered. With all due deference to the Right Hon. Gentle-
te
+lay that en, and with great respect to
Lim personally he ventured to
he
it had not much raised himself in the inion of
the 11,.use by that address. He del not mean topo say that
was not 'fair average speech for a functionary of the Go-
eleertt",ent.( Hear, hear and lauelder. ) It seemed just that
le °. 'peech and argument that might be drawn out of the
`4"'oeholee of the Board of Trade, a.ter having been put by
some twenty-five years back.—( Laughter. ) It seemed that
144 °of cornmon-p'ace—that tissue of vague generalities—thatl,,
Oise 1, no answer to the question before the I ous
them tot 4 of matter that was usually brought before
laught ocenpy a certain space or tune.—( Hear, hear, andpractical
and 3 er• ) For he did think that, censidering the
for
liiao,reide question which his Hon. Friend th • Member
an Ron'
Lehr
had brought before the House, there never wast e
Riahr centlernan, of mature
walesyers, and holding the. pub' ion
mull
0th.,:1" Gentleman held, e had ever occupied so
61, -,.,'rce of the House in speaking, without any reference to
the' ru.'" in question—vrho eontinued so to make hintse
that- joa with which he' foueht —alludleg to things
in,, t'_ad eater fallen from his Hon Friend, and never. answer-
e„4 ,"e questions that must be answered before the discussion
llißht7e, which his Hon. Friend had brought forward.. _
ab-
sract "On. Gentleman urged an objection to this sort f
siftsq cl°"tion; vet the question was put before them be
I to
to tk_Praseically, that they might. be pressed
West
Ike% ''h Rouse what were the claims of . the hail Proprietors to this prof ection what claim
y
hT„, , to this enormous saci ifice exacted from the
ele,,,l's En to
? He would ask, what were those claims?
saerrec-ea,rlt.,il to know what were those claims—what had they
atooarw-" did they owe them—what was the large,
litee dugout -"what
,:latheir loss ' Ttiey were toll of the great sacrifices
'l been oblieed -to make—( Hear, hear)—let
'stnhtirt it-re,,s line thew account—let
irthem, see it—let them know
? l'he Right Hon. Gentle-
;heeesaisi he shoyuhire Pa•Yeitligto show what particular claims
boil), Ohntlefiell
earlPro'e he (Mr. Villiers) would ask andy
Rho harr had the Right Hon. Gentleman—anybo y
Illsett, listened to him —and they had paid him . the most re-
4if the s'tetention—whether they were in possession from him
general shldow of an idea as to what were the claims,
?were °r Particular, in respect of which the gentlemen wio
,300.,2Prietors of landed estates in the West Indies, took
hear,) -`1,,. annually from the people of this country.—( Hear,
could NOW, he would put it to the House, whether they
Is te'e,haernber—vrhether they could tax their memories—so
gentlegentle`ry and comprehend what the Right Honourable
attn e t 'rlarm said, in order to explain why this
Were ' had been made, and what these claims
did o•-''Rear, hear,) The Right Hon. Gentleman said, he
wliy-);t know what Hon. Gentlemen opposite proposed to do,
Hoyt now this resolution, they proposed to bind. that
the 7 t a principle which, if applied, would do just.ieecta,
ttiter"Ple of this country, and by which, as long as mt e
d.
to k eld,justice was withheld —( dear —and they also waive Iside9w why it was withheld ? The Right lion. Gentleman
tob)...it had been the policy of this country to protect the
of ''?.l interest, that protection was part of great scheme
POI,
always adopted by this country. Why that was. the
„etige which the Right lion. Gentleman's friends in tbe
11,7,a1te corner of the House. addressed to the Right
4.;lotmrable Baronet at the head of the Government) "Ishoe_ 1m5,,,,t Honourable Gentleman, said they, by _.,.'hisa.r:ays
ad„:
.proo•ed to disturb the scheme of polt-Yrly 'what
Ilier(7(1 b 5 this country Why th:s was "'C
• • I
illg rt"enlitlerlt were doing. themselves. They were distur me
thtt tieerY day, they scarcely ever got up to make a speech
greet 7 did not utter so.lle sentiment at. variance wißi that
frtott the lessertle of policy. What was it they heard so much of
14
teech
°nest agrieulteral interest now ? What was it they heard so
year from the West Indian body ? Wny, that Gent'l'ere deprivine them of protecti oa. The Righ. t Hon,
Suer teisTan hintself° disturbed that protective principle, and
e
stiol'°ed round on them, and thinks it an answer to
0_ a ttretit
s'e?slted bye
is Hon. Friend to say that it was part_
tfat
they cot:Tole of licy to protect certain interests, and h Would i:'‘'" not be disturbed without injury to the country !. Now
4? -•certs:titidishnost have been more decent to have said nothing at
Oil that it not have been better to have let. it be under-
-I,° "tits „ruche Government meant well, that it wished to carry
.sp"i'l itt;t.Ple, but that it did not like to commit itself now ?
ice ti- tend to render ridiculous every thing theyproposed
Gen-
t'isteah
(I'ciuttered such doctrines ? But the Right Hon. e
hees'llY Lb Say something in the course of his speech which li _
' wish ?tight was somewhat to the point. He said
tihliiii Wee;to the Honourable Members for Cuinbe_r_l_and_
the 'nit of
shei'h were present, because they . knew 3Wilt' ,
t ign details of the subject. He was himself utterly
ti,Y, theorolce, and knew othing of time matter, but.h
hese West f..",,°PPosed to him in politics, were connected wheni
aoewout. 'lnes, and they would perhaps be so good as to help
hpe
tern 000:ithe Right Honourable Gentlemoannneesadi
his
oor igeoranj boot
it, he. had
oannfindence that
the, atice co lee----( Hear )—and in a
the e claims ° d alone justify, had asserted confidence
he believed
ten Prineitoesn Protection were well founded, and that this was
Isee'ren !Aly thine°r Measure of which he professed fire igno-
joitie 4"ne't, was esactly, what his Hon. Frienednthe Alem-
--th eti the ester comlained of. He could tee nothing thatle
should tiLwastm,°°ot of the sacrifice called for from the people
lal', kri,,•;'.., to hrtretisely the matter .
de t 0 whit tte some statistic information, dhlesP:iltioeu.ld like
me thi3Pendeoria'ate these properties were—whether' their co-
,,nmet
,I, Thysti (~' were all in this state, and what there was
1.300 re-." the ea,' 'um of 10s. 6d. that had hitherto
Patel '"o0/,' „circumstances of the case? Here , ,
aria seeee
of the people oi
and , out of the pocket, . this -I doe, °0 Information given as to the. purpos
.for which
wereeetsatry „Was that the moment, looking at tn,,state of
455'wt:ld tha"t"tej, such a sacrifice ought to be made? They
stlgar sae ae income-tax coulenet b.e given up. Now
Iseit weereavailalle surplus b which, if it were not for the
sts, the inters
the people might be relieved from a portion
tile: adje,, ncome-tax —( Hear, hear.) If the sugar dutiesinore
dety! the lusted
. produce two or three milli ns
__
e,
.rtius'ii°t t 4 IT:rh..e-tax or other taxes might be reduced.. Th.
Outdo'eli greeter `tenuced, so as to lead to its being admitted in
(1 ch,se au?ndance ; and thus would our connexion be
thseth, r with that country from which tea was sent to
stia: that itc4:ar, hear ) The Right Hon. Genth m. an told
Pie,' roaer: he had m'ore surplus, he would apply it in the
eoujfWeldsur-
II See hear eproposed to apply 111) '-',
t_ e
the existing
he
,e , t red) It appeared
w, ledia ace more tasee was the nrotection Member
fhor
lisanotie; ProPrietor H' li n l•riend the
tee tee, ha, 8. _is o .
" i 'Pr, '•' Put in a word for the East India proprietors.
ti 'ill 4Peti East Indians as well as
ity taliao on was claimed for the
?14
'illi'ted '.
re.WhY, it was art of their case that that absur-.
etif te'Posi ,',"'„,i, near, hear.)P Particular grounds were stated
-,A.t.eWeo't this Penalty nth people of England in the case
iTettu:ridi,!;_ 'tidis, which died not Pin the least apply to the
hatele oele---( Hear, hear.) The West Indians told them
'all,;utip „.' greund on which they claimed protection was
j'eteteana tiles not cheap. .We want more labour.," th. e,yi
l'ellea Wha? we should be able to compete with. anyefo_r,ewigo_
eitt a day ' were the wages in the East Indies? 1
trl'el had were
most.—( Hear, h. ear. ) Well, now, what
. tet u env was there for protecting the East Indians ?
in 4th 'es'ed interests.
,1-111ii'''stistolie,v,,rereyvi_llt.ere,tgwiichIenhdtmlieeidr
to
oCasbee the Legislature
protected ; the
ghat
t.
_et and the protection was then claimed.
L "10 Net. 'Bri the Member for Cumberland was some-
et c,k that
,el.°llB in his mode of arguing ; . for
4, esti, 'olsquesti
ikl epor the _ on would nut bear arguing in that light,
(Lt i, 1., slos3ue
,as soon a, po„ „hter. ) He
t 't
s ed to say,
p'oei„i'ore ii! Now, he (Mr. !millers) eee,g- ,
:he chee, 'lend's motion did not raise that question.—
" tacdasked h..' from the Ministerial benches. ) His
.. on.
letliile;Westire why there shouid be a duty of 100 f s.
Jalevsaeanodu
th".o, ik.,e lie
.i:oita sugar, as compared with. twhaast
done. His
tZther;ol4ld, the _wanted to kn,ew why this was
" Think of
Ore riot , of siare3el ?the! for Cumberlan .
k,i'os ole'or me
e7Y , it is for them that heart beat,. I
kli)* h; tO ~•;,:':cri estate, it is the cause my
fyhumanity which
(Lkted 7 hi,'
,), e'
—(Laughter.) ow. he wanted to
lissggh '1 th '•00. Friend's benevolent feelings would_ be
-eee ter,) tbe introducti f and Manilla sugar ?-
41tnilistelfeae, th"elZShould plytehney•appay distinctive duties to free-
la ulat,i4 re ins ..mice of different parts of the world. If they
ll gektiLl., the,, te purpose for which they maintained at
`sit) 'alssio .. cHaght to hasten to eive every encouragemen
w°4:etlliihs"-Yse4elf atiLl sugar produced' by free labour.—( Hear,
the:,teh`q wow, "ey wanted to present to the wo:Id an ex-
he J were
.‘. Prove that free-la:Amur sugar was better and
Netles, e,desiro ') Produced than slave-labour sugar, and that
ie:Wtha,toat ~,",°f encoura ming sugar produced by free labour,
s„`fitsti` eteeer''d lead t 0 the abolition of the slave trade.i
,;_Nets of. ;_.',...rnerit had already been made as regarded the
tli"te,al7ol:ith the generally ; there Java sugar always i
11:1,ey -t to e 'ugar of Cuba and Brazil. Why, when they
hived by ,nix,ria'e, aOnse change in their arrangementi, why
y 1 Lree 1 bo Mei!.
„ markets to all sugar which was pro-
41'1 l''d n 5 1.
-r;--( Hear,hear.) It was quite clear that
et'i Perfecte thing to d
..
•atat*% ()h right to 0 with time mnatter.—( Hear, hear.) He
table Nee free., , say this, so long as they made adisinction
illt t t stable t our sugar and another ; and it would be,
ill,se° Kalilii,thrn, he thought, if they avowed their real
0) 4'
,1 givinff protection to the West
Cr.
erst le'Presse-d,,,toe RigCmt PHoeourable baronet (Sir Cr.
vgi',llltls."ia pro `'at the real object was that of favouring the
ie dote td tt,
sillir,rwieeors.
--(Hear, hear. ) Well,. then, I. hey
f's,c .ff what advantage this protection h. ad ever
the laiee ill eine. they possessed some confu-ed notion that
I. °e °t, le Ore could b d t fl murish by an Act of
Ilst r the t them e, ema e ° 'qe defe 6rst ti 'uow that these people were suffering
fteroiitteZted the eile!---( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. 13a-
Rise' the'''' that ~ -"ernMent measure on the distinct and
tseet, ' kbotitiw'e West India planters were now suffering
roll the Ittl." Prete°4 cif 'la/ery. There was, he contended, no
er. theright efor'ee for Making that assertion; and he would
thateetele hed
ziwk Baronet that, whether slavery existed or
ltit4al fri, That al:been suffering when the proprietors were
Nbho e o such of twhes ,the argument used b.y those whonvirerere_
I gad t tot,
r. Biays in the West India islands. e
ec, teoa-terte4 ,0 ities as Cropper Maeaulay, and Stephen,
I ait'lsoly mat the ruinofthese' islandshad been slavery
l'lv ' sea '-(1•lear h
to e }earsaternerp. ' ear- ) The Right Hon. Barone
ti.,stl ii a„,) sSo loosel •• He would remind him that,
i sli ad tl ^' a Ale b )* ,
'ilk °th eelered . in er of that Cabinet to which he b.e-
Ile Port
''''' isl "0 that 'louses that the real cause of dis-
k .4141 t that 'l'd' was tl •"' , e was very
111114
-'Rare that 4 le existence of slavery. t S4I t. l that the and, through it, the country, should
lUD' ahee diely It,'.eY Were not askin for anything that was
Ilss faett et all, Ras in to thegWest Indian interests,
stil: y 111 roe, f 4 it desirable that they should be disabused of
Ilmei,„„Zee, aotistheeeh eperYesstiliant it.
.was owing- to the abolition of
,_ t a 4 . by the
_sloe . existed. lie loun A that during the
iNrt.) thq tio4se trade and slavery, a Committee was ap
.141, sdt gen, ,of Assembly in Jamaica to make inqui-
ill: l'i°Oti't c'helaYeviatrt'hie Srteaptoertef distress in that' island ;
,and lie
, fse, our
or d fr„_ eh jr, a
~._
r3e made on that occasion showed that
(141 1 %,,r Ole a Work 'lofumr, Condition thani which
.whaswaas present.
451: !92 the S•Lpe°
atiroprietors th.er.e:swan'Ther
sththtew. th et ts'.;:e;of the resultof thee ineuirPeit was stated by
ncrilod referred to
441'4! .4t of estaites had been sold for debt, and fifty-
!*4 Bard latt4led in theu'etis'ti°ll, and further that ninety-two
i'it4l,!,,,°4t4atW alley l'taheal.i alaieeHri.l4ecialts
asof thet creditors. Now he had
t1i,414 i,, ,such a`. the distres . ,11 made that evening. He
1,,, 't ,': ilpr, Pitch. ~,,,_ 3 in the island of Jamaica had
411er 4a. „under si ' Mkt Was the state, however, of the
ti,UWtl digits reitte
-"CryCry and the slave trade. In 180 r
,tip'es f e that House to inquire into the un-
ti e eat,' ,re,ei. fl the `y has
I •
,attb, cat,;
aisi,, ing slaves e eidia proprietors. 'They were
le 'ee of
'egr-ld f„ te !vnt Africa, slavery still existed.
le
0 the I,ar . •"e uvpres4on at that time was the con-
IflialirrettLtoPetitto,;.,ltf.switti stated that that had produced an
ti,,. , h .'e of I° qt t. °reign markets. Then there was also
I,llt
_.5101.5 r.. we,.
t 1. tto Pia" discussion also took place, in
le 'ell wr`a a, ' e abolitfon - , ,
a 1,,, N.. . nother t • -,, of slavery. In .1 32
44,t:ttbr, d, a in yas to the' great dioress
sot4e kr
:shaving ands that Committee spoke of the
Wile 'the , and ti!"ged all sorts of inconsistent
Av `es r ree said they
410. -I 14(1i 'l_ mit conclude that there. was
% the eoet,'_oial ":,°_hose assigned. The Earl ?f Rtpdon,
4rrellet jier at the time, said that without e-
SnittY causes; it wits otaivus that the

necessary and permanent source of that distress which almost
every page of the West Indies recorded, was to be found in the
institution of Si leery. Yet it was to the abolition of this very
institution that the Right lion. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk)
traced this distress.--t Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Right
lion Baronet would consult the Noble Lord to-morrow on the
subject, in order to ascertain whether or not he had changed
his views.—( Hear, hear ) Lord Belmore, Governor •General
of Jam lies, in a parting address to the House of Assembly, said
the distress which existed resulted from that policy by which
slavery wag established, and the island would never develop
the abundance of its resources till slavery was abolished. The
Itialit Hon. Gentleman at the Head of the Government had
said in his ( Mr. Villier's) hearing that the experiment of the
abolition of slavery had answered in a more striking manner than
any great experiment ever made. They knew that some islands
had flourished since the abolition of slavery—that is to say, they
had nut said that they did not.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
In Batbatioes it was notorious that the people wished for
low wages ; that they were well off ; and that the island
was ft iurishing. His Honourable Friend had shown
that the proprietors were suffering from their own neglect ;
and now that they feared the abo'ition of protection, they
began to tax their wits to see whether they had not wasted
their eirergiva and the resources of the country, by resisting
improvement and neglecting vigilance in the management of
their estates. The Governor-General reproached them with
neglecting improvement in past tines ; and they were all now
considerieg what could be done to remove that reproach. If
he were not mistaken, the Ho-s. Member for Cumberland
had entrusted to a member of his family the superintendence
of his own estate. whom he had never thought of
sending out until lately. He believed he would confirm the
statement that every species of fraud was practised by the iis-
honest agents of absurd proprietors.
Mr. JAMES said he did not know that.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. VILLIERS--Would his lion. Friend the Member for
Cumberland say he had discovered that his relative might as
well have stopped here ?
Mr. JAMES—No, no.
Mr. VILLIERS had asked three gentlemen connected with
the West Indies whether it was the fact that they had been
cheated in that island. They all said that it was, and gave in-
!stances to prove it.—( Hear, hear.) Why, it was no uncom-
mon thing for the agents to represent to the absent proprietrrs
that their estates were in such a critical position that unless they
sent out money to enable them to cultivate them, it would be
better that they should be abandoned ; and there had been in-
stanees in which, after representatiosts of this kind, the estates
had been sold, and the agents, or heir relatives, had become
the purchasers. He had- been told by a gentleman last year
that there was every species of waste, and that there was no spot
in the globe where sugar was cultivated in so barbarous a manner;
and that he had such a confidence in the island being im-
provable, that instead of abandoning his own West India estate
he had sent out the brother of the head of a great mercantile
firm in the City to superintend and cultivate it. Now, he
asked them to consent to his Hon. Friend's proposition, in
order to eldest a permanent and satisfactory settlement of this
Question. They heard in that House an abundance of profes-
sions of solicitude for the poor ; a vast deal was said as to
the dreadful condition in which they were placed.—( Hear,
hear.) They saw a number of charities advertised
in the newspapers for relieving the extreme necessities
of particular classes. Now here was a distinct practical pro-
position, by adopting which they might diminish the cost of
the article of sugar to the consumers, and extend great advan-
tages to the industrious classes by the extension of trade. 'They
had now an opportunity of doing a great practical charity.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed the next week a large portion of
the aristocracy were going to dance in the cause of the
needlewornen.—( Laughter.) There was to be a grand
bail for the relief of that class of society.—( Hear, hear.)
Now what was the extra cost paid by such persons, as well as

. •
others, on account of this sugar monopoly ? Why every week
this metropolis alone paid 40,000/. more for sugar than they
otherwise would do ; for the whole country the extra amount
was not less than 50,000/. fly adopting the proposition be-
fore the House, they would, besides diminishing the price of
sugar, increase trade and commerce, and thus benefit the poor,
for whose welfare they professed to b • anxious. He did think,
then, that they were justified in bringing this matter before
the House, and that the country would expect on that oc-
casion to get something more than that conventional
indifference which was generally exhibited wisen a
• motion which was really important to the pub-
lic interests, was brought under their consideration. They
had heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir R. Peel) that
the army was three times larger than it need be, were it r.ot
required for the protection of the colonies. Well, then, it
appeared that these colonies did not pay for their own govern-
ment. Every one must be aware what a cruel service was that
of the West Indies. Why, the Secretary at War bad actually
refused, on one occasion, to make a return of the mortality of
the regiments employed there, alleging that the details, if
published, would so horrify and shock the English community
that it would be dangerous to the public service. It might be
that those islands were of such importance as to justify the out-
lay on their account ; but let it be understood that it
was for the purpose of protecting these islands that the
people were called upon to make a sacrifice of 32,000,000/.,
besides a million more for the army. He would ask whether
that presented the colonial dependencies of this country in a
very favourable light; and whether, when such was the case,
it was not necessary to give some very powerful reason why
the people should be mulcted, he might almost say cheated, in
order that money might be poured into the pockets of the
colonial proprietors ?—(Cheers.)
Mr. W. MILES said it was an admitted fact that the West
India colonies had for several years been suffering great distress.
A fair remuneration was all the West India proprietors asked
for, and all they expected to have. The Hon. Member for
Manchester seemed to think that it was very easy to make a
fortune out of an estate in the West Indies. That was not the
tact, which the Hon. Member might discover if he would take
an estate there. He (Mr. Miles) regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet did not intend to propose the continuance of the
duties for a longer period than to July 1846, and he trusted the
Right Hon. Gentleman would re-consider this point. With
respect to the motion before the House, he would say, that
seeing the large expense to which this country was put in sup-
porting a force for toe suppression of the slave trade, he thought
it would be most unwise and impolitic to admit slave-grovvu
sugar at an equal amount of duty as that produced by our own
colonies, or that manufactured by free labour in a foreign coun-
try. He had always supported the principle of protection, and
he thought the West Indies ought to be treated as an integral
part of the empire, and protection ought to be given to them ;
and if protection were given to them, he did not see hew it
could well be less than that proposed by her Majesty's Govern.
ment. If the experiment of Cooliie labour succeeded, the
West India proprietors would not only have a rednction in the
price of labour, but also have a sufficient supply.
If this were so, then he did not see why
the West Indies should not be able to send as great a supply of
*agar, and at as cheap a rate, as any foreign country employing
slave labour, for he believed that a free labourer would accom-
plish more than a slave, even though that slave were kept under
the lash of the slave-driver. All the West India proprietors
required was a fair day's work for a fair day's wages. He
trusted that her Majesty's Government would not depart from
that line of policy upon which they had hitherto acted.
Lord HOWICK next addressed the House. He said he
hoped that the House and the country would observe that the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down—a great West India
proprietor—and the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke before
him, being a member of the Government, had both explicitly
and distinctly admitted the fact which had been alleged on that
( the Opposition) side of the House, that the existing system
of protective duties must be regarded as a tax on the people of
this country to the extent of 2,300,000/. ( Cries of "No, no.")
This remarkable feet had been distinctly admitted.—( Cries of
" No, no.") Hon. Gentlemen said no, but he appealed to
those who had heard the speeches to confirm what he had
said. The Right lion. Gentleman the Vice. President of the
Board of Trade commenced his speech with an argument
which had become so hacknied on the Treasury Bench
that it was hardly worth while to reply to it, viz.
that this was merely an abstract resolution. No
matter what were the terms of the resolution. He thought
no man who had listened to the debate could mistake the real
intention of the motion before the House. The object of it, as
lre understood, was to reduce, and to reduce at once, the duty
on foreign sugar to the same rate as the duty on colonial sugar.
He confessed that he would have preferred the question being
submitted in a Committee ot Ways and Means. But after all,
the terms in which the question was brought before them was
of little consequence. He, for one, distinctly supported this
motion as a motion for equalising the rates of duty on foreign
and colonial sugar. It had been urged on his side of the
House, and not one argument had been brought against it,
that ie effect of the proposed measure of her Majesty's Go-
vernment was to raise the price of all colonial sugar 10s. at
least beyond that which it would pay when sold to the con•
Berner. If that were not the object, he was at a loss to under-
stand on what ground they proposA a differential duty. From
what he could gather from the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite, it was admitted that sugar could be produced in foreign
countries 10s. cheaper than it could be produced in the
British colonies ; and, therefore, they in.posed a duty of 103.
en every cwt. of foreign sugar; so that on the 230,000 tons of
colonial sugar, 101. per ton was imposed on the price
to the consumer. And when he heard Gentlemen call
that a system of protection to Witish industry, he was at a
loss to understand it. He had been informed, a few days ago,
and he believed already some change had taken place in the
market in consequence of the announcement of the measures
of her Majesty's Government. He had been told, a few days
ago, that Brazilian sugar was sold at 18s. 6d., while colonial
sugar, of a precisely similar quality, cost 265. Now it was
quite obvious that 26 tens of foreign sugar at 18s. 6d. a
cwt., and 181- tons at 263. a cwt., each cost
precisely the same amount, viz., 481/. That was to
say, that the produce of British labour of the value
of 4811., would exchange for sugar in bond for 26 tons of Bra-
zilian sugar, and only 181 tons of colonial sugar. Now it
must be recollected that these two sugars were precisely of the
same quality; and if the duty were the same, the price to the
consumer would be the same. The British manufacturer,
therefore, if fiscal regulations did not stand in the way, might
in exchange for his goods to the amount of 4811., get, not 181
tons, but 26 tons of sugar. And yet this simple matter of ex-
change the manufacturer was not allowed to enter into. Fiscal
regulations stepped in the way of British labour, and com-
pelled him to take only 181 tons of sugar when he might
obtain 26 tons. Now he (Lord Howick ) would ask lion. Gen-
.

tlemen who had discussed the Factory hill, and had advocated
the right of property a man had in his own labour, whether they
were consistent in supporting the proposition of the Govern-
ment ? Why did they not allow the labourer to get as much in
return for his labour? The evils of the present system were felt
by all classes of the labouring population. The Right Hon.
Baronet had told them last year that the Brazilians were so
unreasonable as not to admit our goods on favourable terms, un-
I,ss we took their goods in return. He had told them that if
we would consent to admit their sugar on the same terms as
colonial sugar, they would offer no obstacles to the admission
of our manufactures. It was, therefore, clear that the abo-
lition of the distinction in the duties on sugar, would extend
our commerce, and stimulate the industry of our manufacturers.

If the Right Hon. Gentleman got rid of the monopoly of sugar,
he would do more for British agriculture, and other branches of
British industry, than if he drew tighter the protection it al-
ready possessed. Such would be the advantages of simplifying
the measure; and this advantage need not be purchased by any
sacrifice of revenue. By consenting to accept those advan-
tages, they would guard the revenue from that heavy loss which
the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to incur. —( Hear, hear.)
The Right lion. Gentleman calculated the direct loss to the
revenue by the measure he submitted to the House at no less
a sum than 1,300"3/. lie (L Ord H.) believed the Right
lion. Baronet greatly undor-estimated the loss. He believed
the Right Hon. Gentleman's estimate of the probable receipts
for the ensuing year would not be verified; but assuming it to
be correct, if they admitted foreign sugar at the same
rate as colonial sugar, this heavy loss would be covered,
if not immediately, at least in a short time.
They would thus at the same time confer great
benefit on the consumer, and not cause any loss to the
revenue by the change.—( Hear, hear.) But he knew they
were told that this measure would be unjust to their colonies.
Now he would be glad to be informed in what respect it would
be unjust. They had already paid no inconsiderable amount
on account of the colonies. They paid the whole expense of
the civil and military cost of the colonies in the first instance,
and in the next they made a large grant for the purpose of
education and for the magistracy, and the bishops were paid
out of the Consolidated Fund.—( Hear, hear.) Now when
they paid so much for their colonies already, why should they
be called on to pay a further sum in the way of protection ?
W hen it was said that justice to the colonies required this protec-
tion, he should like that those who talked thus would go a little
further, and explain for what particular class justice required
that this burden should be imposed on the people