The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 15.

Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Chi-
chester against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bar gor.

THE CATHOLIC OATH.

Lord STOURTON withdrew the motion, of which he had
given notice, for bringing under the consideration of their
Lordships the construction of the Roman Catholic Oath.

.Aips to..
LORD DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS.
Lord BROUGHAM postponed the motion, of which he had
given notice, respecting the petition presented by Lord Dun-
donald.
Lori MINTO took that opportunity of bearing testimony
+to the value of one of the inventions of the Noble Lord—an
improvement in the application of steam machinery to vessels
-')f war. It had been subjected to a trial of four or five years,
and the experiment had been highly satisfactory, both as to
its operation and durability.
POOR-LAW UNIONS.
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he should
to-morrow move for a Select Committee to consider the expe-
diency of making some provision for religious worship and
spiritual instruction in the poor-law union houses both in
England and Wales.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.
The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice of the inten-
the of the Government to introduce a Bill, in the course of
R present session, on the subject of Turnpike Trusts. All the
eports on the subject not having been received, the Bill could
not be introduced immediately.

STATE OF IRELAND.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate,
Earl FORTESCUE rose, and said that he understood a
statement had been made in another place which affected
him personally, and also the character of the Go.
vernment, at whose head he was in Ireland. A
person high in office had stated that, within three
months before the late Government went out of office, seven
stipendiary magistrates had been appointed in addition to the
existing establishment of stipendiary magistrates in Ireland.
Before he proceeded further, he begged to inform their Lord-
ships that he alone was responsible for those appointments.
The Government with which he had been connected had no-
thing to do with them. On reference to the offieial documents,
be found it was perfectly correct that seven new appointments
were made between the 15th of June and the 28th of August,
184 t. It was not, however, true that those appointments
were made in addition to the existing number of stipendiary
magistrates. During the time he had mentioned three
vacancies occurred, and those vacancies were filled up. That
left four out of the seven. Of those four, one was appointed
in the city of Armagh, at the earnest request of Lord Gosford,
in consequence of a dreadful murder that was committed in the
neighbourhood. Another was sent to Tralee, in consequence of
disputes continually occurring, which terminated in riots amongst
the fishermen in the neighbourhood. Another was appointed
to a wild coast district is Donegal, in consequence of
disturbances _having taken place between the people and
the revenue police. He did not exactly recollect why
the other was appointed, but he knew that the appoint.
ment was made under equally urgent circumstances.
As these were the facts of the case, he trusted that this would
be a sufficient answer to the statement made in another place.
He would now turn to the immediate subject under discussion.
He could not agree with those who said that this motion of his
Noble Friend was ill-timed. No one could doubt its
importance—and its importance, he conceived, was a
sufficient justification for its full and immediate consideration.
He stated that much of the excitement of the people arose from
the attempts made to restrict the franchise. But for those
attempts, these great meetings would not, in all probability,
have been held. He cited the large amount of the repeal rent,
during the last year, compared with former years, as a proof
of the great discontent of the people. Ile felt bound
to render a due meed of praise to Mr. O'Connell for the
manly stand which he made against the propagation of
the doctrines which were endeavoured to be spread through-
out Ireland by the Chartists. During the time when he
(Earl Fortescue) was Lord-Lieutenant, the amount of
the repeal rent was scarcely more than 200/. for each week,
but during the administration of the present Government, it
had risen to nearly 2,000/. Mr. O'Connell had refused to accept
the highest situation which had been offered to him, but in the
instance of his son's appointment, he ( Earl Fortescue)
would say that Mr. O'Connell never made the slightest
application. On the subject of the Irish Church
he thought that there could be but one opinion.
After some further observations, which were quite inaudible,
the Noble Lord concluded, as we understood him, by a wish
that the present discussions might tend to the benefit and
*Ware of Ireland. As he sat down, some Noble Lord moved
daat the House proceed to the Order of the Day.—(Laughter. )
Lord HADDINGTON said the Noble Lord complained
of a statement that had been made elsewhere, of the dismissal
of the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. It had been stated
that the Government removed ten of them, and it was in
order to defend the Government from that charge that the
statement was made. The number of stipendiary magistrates
in the early part of 1841 was 59, and between June and the
28th of August, that being the day on which the Noble
Viscount opposite (Lord Melbourne) left office, seven
additional magistrates were appointed. As soon as the
present Government came into office, those seven were
removed, reducing the number again to fifty-nine, that
being the number for which the House of Commons had given
a vote. At present there were sixty, being one more stipendiary
'magistrate than in 1839, 1840, and up to the 15th June, 1841.
He did not think therefore that her Majesty's present Govern-
ment were liable to the imputations which had been at-
tempted to be cast upon them of setting aside stipendiary ma-
gistrates for party purposes.
gistrates for party purposes. Since the time when the present
-Government came into office four vacancies had taken place,
and those vacancies had been filled up by the appointment of
four of those gentlemen who had been appointed by the late
Government. He had nothing particular to say against the
motion at present before their Lordships. he could not, how-
ever, say so much for the speech of his Noble Friend who in-
troduced the motion. It was filled with invective and recrimi-
nation. He would wish to know for what they were to
quarrel ? Why, one was the subject of the Catholic Clergy.
But this was an old subject which had been mooted long since.
What he thought still as as, that the Noble Marquis might
have selected a more opportune time for bringing this matter
before the consideration of their Lordships and the public.
This alleged grievance had been brought before Parliament in
file year 1805, on which occasion he (the Earl of Haddington)
voted along with the Whigs ; for against the Whigs he had
no animus when they brought forward measures such as he
might conincide in. His Noble Friend beside him, (the Duke
of Wellington) had wisely omitted to annex conditions to the
Catholic Emancipation Act.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—Does the Noble Lord for-
get the abolition of the franchise of the forty-shilling free-
holders ?

The Earl of HADDINGTON—The Noble Lord was right.
He did think that the introduction of any proprosition for
the payment of Roman Catholic clergy would be most impo-
litic at the present time, inasmuch as it would not be acecepted
by that body. Many propositions had been made with respect
to the Established Church in Ireland, by Noble Lords oppo-
site, but he (the Earl of Haddington) thought the question
was, whether they would recognise the Church on the volun-
tary principle in that country, or whether the whole Church
Establishment should be abolished. He thought the proposi-
tion of the Noble Marquis was a perfect chimera, as the
Noble Lord the President of the Council had shown to the
satisfaction of their Lordships. According to the Act of
Union, the Church as by law established was part and parcel of
the law of the land. His Noble Friend had announced that
it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to sanc-
tion in the slightest degree any measure which could degrade or
destroy the Protestant Church in Ireland ; but, at the same
time, he (the Earl of Haddington) thought such a determina-
tion was quite consistent with the adoption of a course of legis-
lattop which would render a full measure of civil and religious
rights to the Roman Catholics. If the agitators of Ireland,
for their own purposes, excited the passions of the people,
under pretence of obtaining their rights, it was for them to
prove that there was ample room to conciliate that
people by the adoption of liberal measures.—( Hear. )
The defects in the registration system could not be imputed to
the Government, since they had announced their intention of
bringing in a Bill to remedy the evils which had arisen from
an interpretation of the Act which had the effect of diminish-
ing the number of Irish voters. He denied the imputation
that justice was not fairly administered. He defended the ju-
dicial appointments of the Government. Were men to be :ex-
eluded from the bench, because, at some time in their lives,
they had made speeches distasteful to the Catholic Hier-
archy? That charge came with a very had grace from
the Noble Marquis, who, unless he was belied, offered
the situation of Master of the Rolls to Mr. O'Con-
nell.—(" Hear, hear," from the Marquis of Normanby.)
As to the monster meetings, it was said that the most manly
coarse would have been to have prevented them at first. Ile
said that the Government thought they would wear themselves
out ; the Government was not so foolish as to imagine any
tech thing. The Government did not prevent the first meet-
ings ; but they took a course by which the people—who saw
what passed in Parliament through the papers—were warned
of the consequences of attending such meetings. As to the
dismissal of the magistrates for attending repeal meetings, the
Government was perfectly justified in doing it. No man who
attended such a meeting could be depended on for putting down
excesses that might arise from excitement on other oecasions.

With regard to the Clontarf meeting, he contended that the
proclamation against it was issued quite in sufficient time.
That meeting was called together by a sort of military procla-
mation, which rendered it absolutely necessary for the Govern-
ment to interfere. He admitted that Mr. O'Connell did use
every effort to preserve the peace, and not the slightest disorder
occurred. But the alarming part of the subject was this—
that one man should have such influence as that when
he said peace there was peace ; what might be the con.
sequence if it suited him to say war? The Noble
Marquis opposite (the Marquis of Clanricarde) complained
of the manner io which the persons in Ireland had
been brought to justice. He complained of their being
arraigned .for conspiracy, and said they ought to have been
tried for sedition. The Noble Lord also said that great risk
of blood was incurred by the Government in the manner in
which they had proclaimed the Clontarf meeting. Their
Lordships would recollect that Clontart was near to Dublin,
where a large military force was stationed. But suppose they
had proclaimed MuNghmast, Tara, or Clifden meetings.
There would then have been risk of bloodshed indeed, inas-
much as the military force stationed at those places was ex-
tremely small, as compared with the vast numbers attending
the meeting. Suppose those meetings had been proclaimed,
and the people attending those meetings had refused to obey
the proclamation, what would have been said then by Noble
Lords opposite ? Would it not have been said that Peterloo
had been revived, and that the meetings had been put down
which were being held for a perfectly legal purpose ? The
Government had not prosecuted the traversers in Ireland be-
cause the object they had in view was unlawful, but because
their means for attaining that object were illegal. The means
they adopted were intimidation—intimidation of Parliament
and the Government. (Lord Haddington) therefore
trusted that the Government stoodstovindicated before their
stood v
Lordships, as he was sure they i c aTt ehde
yb
he faodr ed
ot the
ee
people of England, for what they had done.nd
all they could to maintain the
succeeded—succeeded,
eand tranquillity
of Ireland. They had
of the ordinary and unaided law of the la too,l b&mseerasl.l
It had been said in another place that his Noblen Friend
on
the
Woolsack had been appointed to his office on account of
his
hostility to Ireland. lie (Lord fladdington) roust say, that
he had never read any accusation with more indignation in
the whole course of his life.—( Hear, hear.) The attack
upon his Noble and Learned Friend was a most foul calumny.
—(Hear; hear.) No one who knew his Noble and Learned
Friend could ever accuse him of being the enemy of, or hostile
He had never known a man loss
to, any human creature.
liable to such a gross imputation, or who had more generosity
in his nature. He (Lord Haddington) begged pardon for
thus speaking in the presence of his Noble and Learned
f,Eriend, but he had a right to feel that this was not only an
imputation upon the motives of Sir Robert Peel, but upon the
whole Government.—(Cheers.) He thought that the person
who said that her Majesty's Ministers had appointed her Lord
High Chancellor to his situation on account of his hostility to
~ the people of Ireland, was not, by such a course, doing that
which was likely to allay the excitement at present existing.
—(Hear, hear.) They were not accustomed to hear impute-
tattons of this kind, and he was sure they must all have heard
of it with deep regret. He was quite certain that it ought to
be regretted by him who made it, for language of this kind
was little likely to heal the wounds of Ireland. In conclusion,
be begged to say that nothing would be left undone by her Ma-

jesty's Government to tranquillise and conciliate t' e people of
Ireland.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. When he
said the parties who had lately been tried in Ireland ought to
have been tried for sedition, he did not say that seditious lan-
guage had been used, but that it was stated that seditious lan-
guage had been used at the meetings held in Ireland last year.
The parties using such language, if they had used such lan-
guage, ought to have been prosecuted at the time.
Earl FORT ESCUE explained.
Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to address the House. The
question of stipendiary magistrates formed but a small part of
the question. At the same time he felt that his Noble Friend,
the late Lord-Lieutenant, had increased the confidence of Ire-
land by the course that he had pursued, and in that course he
was fully vindicated. For himself, he was most anxious to
render every justice to the terms of the motion that had
been proposed by the Noble Marquis, but, in doing so, he was
most anxious to see that justice was done on each side.
Could it be said that Ireland was in the same state that it for-
merly had been ?—( Hear, hear.) Certainly not. It had hi-
therto, under the late administration, been in a state of per-
fect tranquillity and peace. What was its condition now ? Far,
far, different.—( Hear, hear.) He concurred with the mea-
sures that had been adopted on the part of the Government,—
( Hear, hear.) He complained not of the forces that had been
employed in Ireland ; but while he did so he was compelled to
state that by the proceedings that had been taken, some,
if not a little injury, had been effected in Ireland
The Government had taken a great step, but if they were
disposed to act upon the terms of conciliation, they, in his
opinion, ought to have adopted a different course. Had they
by the principles which they had pursued succeeded in govern-
ing Ireland effectually, or in keeping her people quiet? Cer-
tainly not. —( flear, hear. ) And what was the inference to be
drawn ? Why, that the Government—the present existing Go-
vernment— had nut the confidence of the rich people ; they had
not the confidence of the Irish Catholics. It might be true
that they wished to govern Ireland on the principles of justice,
but to do so they must adopt a very different course to that
which they had pursued.—( Hear, hear.) The fact was, that
the present Ministers had not the confidence of the people of
Ireland, and the evidence of the last ten years had proved
that assertion. What had been done with respect to the Muni-
cipal Bill? Had not the proceedings upon that measure given
the greatest dissatisfaction to the people of Ireland? Was not
that dissatisfaction one that ought to have been expressed? By
that Bill they had given to England, and to Scotland, certain
civil rights, but they had considered that Ireland was unworthy
of such a concession.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, they had given
to Ireland what he must. call a bar to civil rights, and in the
renewal of certain laws they had forgotten Ireland altogether.
Then, with respect to education, what had been the course that
had been pursued towards Ireland? One that he must confess
was of little credit to the Government. He did not wish to
undervalue the votes that have been given by Hon. Members,
in the other House of Parliament, but he thought, notwith-
standing all they had attempted to do, they had proved them-
selves greatly backward in the cause of the education of the
people of Ireland. Then, with respect to the prosecutions that
had taken place in Ireland, was it to be said, for one moment,
that these prosecutions were conducted in a manner becoming
a great Government? In that prosecution the Catholic reli-
gion—the priests had in a great measure been held up to scorn
—their principles had been attacked, and the political franc-
chise and the rights of the people had been considered as no-
thing.—( Hear.) Much had been said against Mr. O'Con-
nell—much had been also asserted about the offers of prefer-
ment that had been made to him by the late Government. It
was true that they had offered him the 'Mastership of the Rolls.
He ( Lord Monteagle) regretted sincerely that that offer had
not been accepted by Mr. O'Connell. In discussing this
question, he should wish it to be understood distinctly that he
was not in the most remote manner defending the agitation in
that country. It had been his lot, during the administration
of Earl de Grey, to meet Mr. O'Connell face to face and
answer him upon the subject of the repeal of the Legisla-
tive union, and upon that occasion he did net shrink from the
inquiry, nor would he do so now ; but still at the same time he
thought it would be most unjust if he availing himself of this
privileges in that place as a Peer were to attack a
person who had no opportunity or power of reply.
He believed it was pretty well understood that he
owed but little gratitude to Mr. O'Connell—( Hear,
hear, and laughter)—but still that should not in the slightest
degree influence him, and his only motive in stating what he
had just now done, was to show that he was actuated by no
private bias. Upon the occasion of the appointment of three
gentlemen of the highest honour and character—namely, Mr.
Shell, Mr. Wyse, and Mr. More O'Ferrall—Mr. APNeil and
the party with whom he was identified, made use of the most
insulting observations with respect to the religious persuasion
of those gentlemen. When such language was used by a
great political party, it in some degree justified the violent ex-
pression from the other party. The great question at issue was,
whether the Irish people had or had not confidence in the pre-
sent Government ? and if they had not, to seek out the cause.
He should state that he attached no culpability to the Govern-
ment for the institution of the State trials ; becaue he thought
that when a great body of persons openly avowed their inten-
tion by particular means, whether legal or other, to effect a
political purpose, and in carrying that out assumed a system of
military organisation, it was the bounden duty of the Govern•
ment to interfere. With respect to the proclamation which
had been issued before the Clontarf meeting, he should say
the assertion that the Government had kept this proclamation
back for any sinister motive, or for the purpose of putting
down the meeting by force, was erroneous ; but still he thought
it very unfortunate that a proclamation to put down
a meeting appointed for Sunday bad been only issued
at three o'clock on the Saturday, the more particularly as
the people were coming from various and distant parts of the
country. Lord de Grey only arrived in Ireland on Friday, and
the proclamation was issued on Saturday. He (Lord Monte
eagle) thought this was a lack of decision on the part of the
members composing her Majesty's Government, and he would
ask was this the manner in which such a measure should have
been adopted? Why, he should ask, had not the Government.
through the medium of some of its organs amongst the press,
caused an intimation to be given to the people of the intention
to suppress this meeting at an earlier period—in fact at the
moment it was first determined upon? Again, he thought it
most unfortunate for the Government, that the sheet of the
jury list, which had been so frequently referred to and caused so
much excitement, had been lost. He thought it was most
essential for the interests and peace of Ireland, that there
should be an amalgamation of all parties in that country. With
respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, he was fully
aware of the many difficulties by which it was surrounded ;
but he was, at the same time, convinced that the Commis-
sioners was bound to turn their attention to the
social condition of the people of Ireland y and he
thought that no subject was of more importance than that of
affording instruction to the people in agricultural science, in-
asmuch as a highly industrious class of persons were unable to
make available the resources of the country. He also thought
it most advisable that a State provision should be afforded to
the Roman Catholic clergy; and also that the College of May-
nooth should be placed upon a higher footing, for by these
means, and these alone,they would insure the admission of higher
class persons to the ministry of that Church.
The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose, but gave way to
The Earl of RIPON, who said, that after the speeches made
on the other side of the House, hardly any explanation was
necessary of the conduct of ;he Government. The Noble Lord
who had just sat down was evidently satisfied both with the
past conduct of the Government, and with the measures they
intended to propose. His (the Earl of Ripon's) Noble Friend
in introducing this motion remarked, that it was not at all sur •
prising that the people of Irelaud should not place confidence
in her Majesty's Ministers. The ground upon which he
made this remark was, that while there were three Scotchmen
in the Cabinet, he could not discover a single Irishman with
the exception of his Noble Friend near him (the Duke of
Wellington) ! It was rather singular that when Lord Grey's
Government was in power, the Noble Marquis
did not discover that such a Government could not
possess the confidence of the Irish people, for there
was no Irishman in that Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) The
appointment of a noble relative of his (Lord Ripon) had been
alluded to, as one not calculated to give satisfaction to the
people of Ireland. There was one question upon which his
noble relative (Lord de Grey) had ever entertained the
strongest opinion, in whieh he had differed from his political
friends, and differed from his family, and that was the Catholic
question. He ( Earl Ripon) said that was prima facia
proof of his Noble relative being calculated to conciliate the
Irish people. His Noble Friend, in supporting the Catholic
claims, had not popularity in view, for the question at that
time was not a popular one in that House. No, he
acted upon a principle of justice, and gave those claims
his hearty support. He therefore thought that her
Majesty's Government had properly chosen him as
a person likely to administer the government of Ireland in an
honest and fair spirit. Then with respect to his Noble Friend
the Chief Secretary, it was well known what his feelings had
been. There was no division of opinion between the Lord
Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary. Their opinions were the
same. His Noble Relative entered upon his office with a firm
determination of being neither bullied nor cajoled either by
friend ur enemy, and he (Earl Ripon) would undertake
to say that no appointment had ever been made that was less
liable to the imputations which had been cast upon it. It had
been said that it was impossidsle for the appointments of Mr.
Baron Lefroy and Mr. Sergeant Jackson to give satisfaction in
Ireland. There was no doubt that Mr. Baron Lefroy had
strong political opinions He had often expressed those opinions
in Parliament. He (Earl Ripon) did not say whether
those opinions were right or wrong, he disagreed with many of
them, but he believed that Mr. Baron Lefroy was a fair and
honest man, uncorrupted, and perfectly incorruptible. 'He was
a man whose justice on the bench nobody had ever ventured to
impugn. Was it to be said that because a man had entertained
strong political opinions that, therefore, he ought not to be
appointed to a seat on the judicial bench ? What then was the
objection made to Mr. Sergeant Jackson ? Why, that he was
a great opponent to the national education scheme. Were
they come to such a pass that a man's opinions were
to be a bar to his advancement: in his profession?
Why this was nothing but proscription if such a principle were
to obtain. Mr. Sergeant Jackson had, it appeared, made an
excellent judge, and yet exception was taken to his appoint-
ment. This exception, too, was taken by those who supported
that party who had offered the Chief Judgeship to one who
had lately been placed in an unenviable position. Then with
respect to the elevation of Mr. Holt Waring, to which so
much objection had been offered. Their Lordships would re-
collect the time when Parliament came to strong resolutions on
the subject of the Orange Societies. The moment the wishes
of Parliament were expressed that those institutions should
be dissolved there was not a man to be found
in Ireland more earnest, or more zealous, amongst
those over (whom they exercised influence than Mr. Holt
Waring was with those with whom he possessed any influence
to induce them to abandon at once all such institutions. He
(the Earl of Ripon) thought that this was quite sufficient to
wipe away all recollection of his connection with such institu-
tions. He thought he had said sufficient for the refutation of
the charge which had been brought against his noble relative
of maladministration of his office. He would turn to the sub-
ject to which the Noble Marquishad referred at length, namely,
the late trials in Ireland. He thought that with respect to
this matter, the speech of his Noble Friend, who
had spoken last, was a complete acquittal of the
Government. He had said that the Government
had done right in not acting before they had done, and in
taking steps when they did. Here, then, were two of the
charges against the Government got rid of. But his Noble
Friend complained of the number of days that elapsed between
the time the Government became aware of the proclamation
that issued from the Corn Exchange, with respect to the re-
peal cavalry, and the issuing the proclamation. His Noble
Friend, to show what he considered was delay on the part of
the Government, referred to the course Mr. Canning adopted
respecting an expedition to Portugal. It was per-
fectly true, as the Noble Lord had stated, that Mr. Can-
ning
TNtioehldeaLofrodllcginots
received intelligence on Friday, and on
ning had
aitlroc
that all
in London, to be acted upon in these
were ready to embark.
n,i arrangements were made
present Government was different, for the
But the case of the
determination come
which mad
to in London had to be acted upon in Dueblin,
difference in the time. It had been said, on the other made the
that the Attorney-General for Ireland was hardly known be-
fore the late trials.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—I beg your pardon, that
came ftom your Noble Colleague.
The Earl of RIPON—Yes, but that will not do. It was
said the Attorney-General was not known out of the law-courts
in Ireland.
Lord CAMPBELL—Your Noble Colleague said that he
had not heard of his name.
The Earl of RIPON said it was not to be a reproach to the
Government that they did not know all at once what were the

legal qualifications of all the gentlemen of the Irish bar. The
idea was absurd. Why, Mr. Whiteside, one of the counsel for
the traversers, in whom the traversers must have placed the
most implicit confidence, inasmach as that gentleman was a
Conservative in politics ; he, in his speech to the jury, stated
that the speech of the Attorney-General was characterised by
great fairness and talent.
Lord CAMPBELL—That is a lawyer's compliment.
The Earl of RIPON—The Noble and Learned Lord says
that is a lawyer's compliment.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Yes, they often compliment
upon talent, but not upon fairness.—(Laughter.)
The Earl of RIPON continued—A great deal had been
said about the missing sheet, containing the names of special
jurors. Why, the person who actually lost, or toislaid, that
sheet, was a Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the less
of the sheet was brought, not certainly as a direct charge
against the Government, hut as a matter of grave suspicion.
He had said more than he intended when he rose to address
their Lordships. He was happy to find that the measures
which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue had met
with the approbation of Noble Lords opposite. He would not
pretend to say what would be the result of those measures, but
at present no opposition had been expressed with respect to
them, but, on the contrary, they had met with the approbation
of all parties. He anticipated the most salutary results.
After the Noble Earl sat down there was a pause of some
minutes • there was a general expectation that either Lord
Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, or Lord Brougham, would
have risen, but no manifestation of such an intention was made
by either of them. Lord Brougham and Lord Camp-
bell were both in the House ; but the Lord Chan-
cellor was absent ; and the Earl of Shaftesbury,
occupied the Woolsaek. The pause still continuing, and no
Noble Lord rising to speak, while the Noble mover of the re-
solution also remained silent, the House grew impatient, and
there were loud cries of " Question" and '° Divide." At this
moment a Noble Lord conveyed an intimation to the Marquis
of Normanby that the Lord Chancellor did not intend to speak
upon the question at all.
The House still being impatient,
'The Earl of SH AFTESBURY put the question.
The Marquis of NORM ANBY thea rose to reply on his
motion. He said, as he had understood that the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack intended to address the House,
as it was very natural he should wish to do, he had waited for
some minutes, in order that he might have an opportunity of
doing so. But he had received an intimation from a Noble
Lord near him, that it was not the intention of the
Noble and Learned Lord to address any observations
to the House. He, therefore, now rose to make such observa-
tions in reply as might appear necessary, in answer to the
speeches that had been made on the other side. Before he did
even this, he would make one general observation with respect
to some remarks that had been made on the doubtful nature
of the motion. The Noble Lord at the head of
the Admiralty had described the motion as so in-
definite that he could not conceive but that he
had some previous interest in framing it in such a
shape. He assured them that the present motion was the only
one he ever intended to make. It was true that it was founded
upon general principles—principles that might be adopted by
many Noble Lords who did not agree with him in politics, and
that it was framed differently from the motion made in the
other House of Parliament. But it was so framed, because it
was not usual to move their Lordships to go into a commission
of the whole House.

...- ....-
The LORD CHANCELLOR, having entered the House
while the Noble Marquis was speaking, here interrupted him
by saying, " Now, can I address the House now ?"
The Marquis of NORMAN BY—Really, my Lords, after
the intimation made to me that the Noble and Learned Lord
did not intend to speak, and not having risen to reply till I re-
ceived that intimation, I think it strange that the Noble and
Learned Lord should ask me if he could address your Lord-
ships now. Having waited for some minutes to give him an
opportunity of speaking, and his Lordship not having risen, I
am not much informed of the usages of your Lordships' House,
if he has now any means of addressing you. The Noble and
Learned Lord cannot address your Lordships now ; my Noble
Friends around me will bear me out in saying that it was with
the utmost unwillingness I rose to reply ; and now when I am
explaining the purport of my motion, the Noble and Learned
Lord asks me, " Now, can I address the House now ?"

A NOBLE Lean—The Lord Chancellor can speak.
The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great warmth)—He
cannot speak now ; and I can only say if he does do so, it will
be taking a most unfair advantage of me.—( Hear, hear, and
Oh, oh.) I walted till an intimation was conveyed to me by a
Noble Friend that the Noble Lord would not speak, and then,
exercising the privilege of every mover of a motion, I am now
addressing your Lordships. If the Noble and Learned Lord
wishes to make any remarks on the question, it is in his power
to do it ; and if a majority of your Lordships bear him out in
it, I will say it will be a most unheard-of proceeding.—( This
was said with great energy, the Noble Marquis evidently being
much excited. )
Lord KENYON rose to order. The right the Noble Mar-
quis claimed was by no means an invariable one ; it was not an
invariable rule that a Noble Lord could:not make a speech on the
question after the mover of a resolution had replied. But if
the Noble Marquis understood that the Noble and Learned
Lord did not mean to speak, he must confess he had a right to
feel disappointed.
The Marquis of NORMANDY—I do not think the Noble
Lord has spoken to order.
Lord BROUGHAM—It is to order.—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) My Noble and Learned Friend has not heard any
argument.
The Earl of RADNOR called the Noble and Learnect Lord
to order.--( Cheering. Hear, hear, and great laughter. )
Lord BROUGHAM—I speak to order. I entirely agree
with the Noble and Learned Baron who spoke from
the cross benches ( Kenyon). There is no rule of
your Lordships' House that gives a natural right to the maker
of a motion to close the debate, and if we do not oppose this
new doctrine, it will have to be met hereafter, when it may
not be so convenient. The courtesy of the House—contrary
to the rule and order which prohibits two speeches from one
Noble Lord during one debate, gives a reply to the mover of a
resolution. But if I have heard it once, 1 have heard it a
hundred times, that members of your Lordship's House have
spoken after the reply. I have rn) self been replied to by half
a dozen of your Lordships after a reply.
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, and in a voice that be-
trayed the excitement under which he spoke, said—My Lords,
I wish to explain my position. I have been in my Court from
ten o'clock this morning till nearly four ; I have sat here from
five o'clock till nine, awaiting the return of the
Noble Earl (Shaftesbury) ; the Noble Earl having
arrived, I quitted the Woolsack only for five
minutes, and during that period the question was put, and the
Noble Marquis rose to reply.—( Hear, hear.) I have no desire
whatever to address your Lordships ; the only reason why I
should have wished to address a few words to your Lordships
was that they might be explanatory of my own conduct, in con-
sequence of the imputations that have been cast on me.—
(Hear, hear.) But I have been so nobly, so warmly, so heartily,
defended by my Noble Friends—(Loud cheers)—that I shall
never regret the accusations made against me. I have waited
till this late hour in the evening, expecting that some of my
Noble and Learned Friends would have risen for
for the purpose of
giving their opinions on the subject, intending to reply to them.
As they have not done so, my Lords, I am quite satisfied with
the decisive and triumphant arguments put forward by my
Noble Friends, in opposition to the charges made by the Noble
Marquis.—( Loud cheers. )
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he was glad the Noble
and Learned Lord had stated the grounds on which he wished
to have addressed the House. The facts of the case were, that
a message was brought him by a Noble Lord, that the Noble
and Learned Lord would not speak. The Noble Earl on the
Woolsack (Shaftesbury ) then insisting that the question should
be put, he rose to reply.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—I did not intend to reply,
except in answer to my Noble and Learned Friends.—( Hear,
hear.) (His Lordship here began to put the question to the
house, as if for immediate division.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great energy)—My
Lords, I appeal even to those most opposed to me in politics, to
say if ever there was a more unfair proceeding.—(Hear, hear,
and cheers, from the Opposition.) I was addressing your
Lordships, having first insisted on my right to do so. I then
gave way, because the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to wish
to defend himself. I sat down to give him !an opportunity of
doing so, and he then puts the question.—( Hear.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—I beg to set the Noble
Marquis right. I said I did not wish to defend myself ; on
the contrary, I said I did not intend to do so, considering it
unnecessary, after the admirable defence made by my Noble
Friends.—( Cheers. )
The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded with the
reply on his motion, which had been so long interrupted. With
respect to this motion, remarks had been thrown out to tho
effect that it was couched in terms less strong than was at
first intended. He had framed it according to the usage of
their Lordships' House. It. was a motion for an inquiry into
the state of Ireland, with a view to restore confidence in
the GOvernment to the people of that country. He
thought that every measure calculated to restore this con-
fidence was worthy of their consideration and inquiry. He
adverted first to the state of the Church in Ireland as a cause
of dissatisfaction. As a first step to remove this feeling, they
ought to elevate the character of the Catholic priests, and re-
move the disqualifications which the Emancipation Act inflicted
on the Catholic prelates. The discontent caused by the re-
striction of the franchise he eharged directly on the Govern
went; a new arrangement of the representation of Ireland, as it
was settled by Lord Castlereagh at the union, was rendered
necessary by the Reform Bill in Ireland, which disturbed the
relative proportions of the representation of the two countries.
He charged the Government with a general ignorance of the
present state of Ireland ; with the exception of the illustrious
Duke, not one of the Government had any knowledge of that
country ; he had noticed the exception that was made of
Sir It. Peel; he was there only in other days.—( A Noble
Lord, " Goulburn !") He defended what he had
said of the appointment of Lord Eliot, and re-
peated his charge of a disregard of public opinion
in the appointments of Baron Lefroy and Sergeant
Jackson to judicial situations. These appointments, the giving
all their clerical patronage to the most violent opponents of the
national education system, and the selection of the Attorney-
General, all proved that. ignorance of the state of public feel-
ing in Ireland of which he complained. He passed rapidly over
the circumstances connected with the proclamation against the
repeal meetings, stating that the Government was as much bound
to notice the first of them as the last, and affirming that the
preservation of the peace was mainly owing to the exertions of
111 r. O'Connell himself, from whom they had the least right to
expect assistance. He was told that the motion was ill-timed;
whenever there was more than usual interest felt by the people
in the conduct of the Government, this was always the plea ;
it was the old answer. But he believed that one of the likeliest
means of restoring tranquillity to Ireland would be to adopt the
resolution. He denied that it was brought forward from any
wish to embarrass the Government; though he should not
have been deterred from doing what he considered to be his
duty by the fear of embarrassing it. Having replied to the as-
sertion made by Lord Roden, that they were then " reaping
the fruit of the wholesale discharge of the gaols" made during
his Government of Ireland, by showing that he remitted fewer
sentences than the Lord-Lieutenant of 1823, and having justified
his dismissal of Colonel Verner from the magistracy, (another
of the charges made against him) for giving as a toast the
" Battle of the Diamond," he proceeded to notice some of the
observations made by another Noble Lord ( Howden) in the
course of his speech. Ile hesitated, however, to allude to them
in the absence of the Noble Lord, who was not in his place.—
( Cries of "Go on, go on.") The Noble Marquis still pausing
on account of the ahsence of the Noble Lord—

The LORD CHANCELLOR said—Speak of him, and
he'll appear.—( Great laughter. )
The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded to notice the
speech of the Noble Lord he had alluded to, (while he was
commencing, Lord Howden entered the House from the
library, whence he had been summoned.) He repeated that
he had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the Noble
Lord, which, from its manner, was a very agreeable one. But
he had observed that nothing was more favourably received
than a very sharp thing said by any person against those with
whom he was supposed, to some extent, to agree.—( Hear.)
The Noble Lord said that the motion was brought on with a
particular object ; ho did not state what that Abject was. He
(the Marquis of Normanby) certainly would not attribute any
particular object to his Noble Friend, in making that remark.
the
eurerolelydiniark
it
storyw whichhardlyasof
ir he
. o,wcrt
° h
O'Connell
the while of his Noble Friend, in
thoughtnellit ahbisoudtuttyhetoolmdalkiaet,. to
Thatrak we ua ps
a story told somewhere about ten years ago, and it was intended
to apply to Earl Grey's Administration. Why it should be
used by the Noble Lord (Howden), of whose support that Go-
vernment, and other Liberal Governments, had had the benefit
in their policy towards Ireland, it was for the Noble Lord rather