The Sun.
London, England, 1828-03-05 00:00:00

great advantage both all Vesjet:Ata ana the
mother country. WithVti it toe measure must necessarily
fall to tire teckiia. But he trusted that the attention of
the 1.1-t;iuse and of the country, which had been summoned

to these considerations by the labours.. of. two successive

Committees, would not only be vigorously applied to the
subject, hut woulq...be strongly. influenced by the reciam*-
wend:aims in which their Comtriitteo ht.d 'cdfattiith—
(Hear, hear.)—The Right Hob. k3etf_inti'n ttoneluded by
moving toe a ev o tl!ie report of Lieutenant-Colonel
Cockbutir,
.tied of the orders issued by the Colonial De-
partment in consequence of that report, on the sth of Ja-
tali*, 1827.

31r., BARING, jun., then addressed the House. We
understood hint to say, that the repayment of any snits ad-
vanced to the . Emigrants would be t`iittch Agee than was
.generally anticipated; end to iio= cvri assertions he re-
ferred t.. 0 the -evidence tiven. by Mr. Benton before the
Xmigratiou tNiUnittee. lie was convinced, that if the
eutigrAion4yere conalueted upoo a suitable plan, and if
the settlers could be placed not at a distance &ern the cul-
tivated part of the Canadas, but upon the reabeS
lization, so as to be setaNtair, after Oantrng tilers o\kii land,
to earn autos leanttnetatton by W7l.t,stl'ag for others, it
would .reiptire too Vs374,:tif:',lce from Government to support
tha eettlioe nittr he had Once been sent out. Besides, even
though there was not a possibility that he could sUPpert
himself, it ought not to be forgotten inal; time Legislative
Assembly of Canada had sTeetitied itself willing to give him
assistance. If 'l!SiVerisnient would either give up oart of
the Criesti land', or would part with the supremacy over
them, the Legislative Assembly of Canada would provide
for the support of every indigent person who might besent
over into that province. From what he hail heard, he be-
lieved that there was greater tliflicUlly ekiserienceti in pre-
venting settlers from goltit, trtlii Canada into the United
States, than in providing for them in that coreny. One of
the gtSiitest objections to emigration is Canada wAs the
tenure under which land was held in thaticolonv. here
was a law passed several years ago to remove those objec-
tions, but he was sorry to say that it had never yet been
carried into effect by the Governer nt.
Mr. J. GRATTAN said, there were two Ways by which
a system of ramigratien was to be carried on ; the first
was by it grant of a million of money—tie other by. indi-
vidual speculation. Now, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W.
Horton) had stated, that the money was to be merely a
loan, and not to be hist to the country, but he thought it
extieniel!, uthikely that the Government would ever: see a
farthing. returned. Unless the Hon. Gentleman could se-
cure the co-operation of the Irish Gentry, all his attempts
would be fruitless, and he would merely lead the country
astray.
Colonel DAVIES quite agreed in the principle, that if
some arrangement could be Made which would induce the
country to come forward, the most beneficial results might
be expected, but soine such was absolutely necessary.
Sir F. BURDETT rose simply for the purpose of stat-
ing, that he yielded to no one in the consideration that this
question was vitally important, or, in the opinion which
he entertained, that this way was the best, he might say
the only way, of relieving the distress which prevailed in
England and in-Ireland. He would beg leave to say, that
the question was quite as much—indeed, he might say
more, an English than .an Irish question. The present,
however, was not the time to debate it, and he would
merely State that the Non. Member deserved the warmest
praise for the labour, 'the perseverance, and the ability he
had displayed in bringing it forward.
Mrs, SLANE'Y agreed entirely with the Hon. Baronet,
that this was by tie means an Irish question, but one as
closely connected with the welfare of England as any that
could iweupy the attentir,e of Parliament. As regarded
the subject of the Poor Laws of England, it would be his
duty to bring this matter shortly before the House, and
be would therefore abstain from making any observation
upon it.
Mr. LEICESTER avowed himself an enemy to Emi-
gration. which might indeed be termed a, system of statis-
tient suicide. If lie were asked what was to be done with
a superabundant population, he would answer, employ
them in improving and cultivating the waste 1 ands, which
would give employment to themsands. Such cultivation
was certainly impeded by barriers of no, ordinary difficulty
--"-they were harriers of poor laws, tithes, and taxes.; but
'remove them, and the advantages would-be of easy attain-
ment. He had himself paid. no less than 6,000/. for re-
claiming 100 acres of waste land, and it would not have
cost him more than half the sum if it had not gone into his
Majesty's Exchequer.
Mr. BENETT observed, that to hint it appeared no
elm, of money could effect the object which the Hon.
Member (Mr. W. Horton) had in view. Some men
argued that man was an animal not only useless but per-
nicious to the soil, and that he ought to be got rid of by
any means. There were, however, some countries where
it Was saidse-by shallow politicians it might be—send us
your people, and we will receive them. Could we not then
catch wine of those .wild Irish—those wretched starving
creatures—and sell them to those countries—a measure
which would certainly be more judicious. than to pay men
for emigrating.—(llear.)—Why was not the experiment
tried in the case of the,convicts sentenced to seven years'
transportation by our criminal tribunals ? Instead of which
after a, residence of .three or four Years en board the hulks,
those persons were turned , adrift on society, when, even
where their conduct
,might have been exemplary while on
board the.hulks, they were certain of falling into company
with their former associates, to recommence their criminal
pursuits, and ultimately get hanged. From transporting
that description of persons, a great good, instead of evil,
would result to the country. That indeed would be a Va-
luable experiment—very different from the proposed plan
to banish from the country that peculiar description of the
population whose exertions in it were of value.
Colonel WOOD quite agreed with the Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Westminster, that no.other question—the
Catholic Question not excepted, was of so much importance
as that then under consideration. He should not, how-
ever, proceed further to discuss it, as the subject was not
then fairly before the House,—(ear, hear)—and par-
ticularly as notice had been given of the intention to intro
duce a Bill on the subject on the 13th of this month, before
which day he begged of Hon. Members to make themselves
masters of i:. He (Col. 'W.) should not be doing justice
to the labouring people of England, were he not to express
his conviction that the improper use of the Poor Laws had
had considerable effect in producing the present distress.
To prove that he should cite one instance only. In Harrow,
Middlesex, the peasantry were put up to auction by the
overseers. A single man they offered for 51. per week ; a
married man with a wife, for 7s. a week ; and other
married men, with families, at a proportionate increase.
That disgraceful proceeding had, however, been discon-
tinued. For the reasons he had stated, he hoped his
Right lion. Friend's measure would be adapted.
Mr. JOHN SMITH, having been- a Member of the
Committee of last year, felt competent to speak the opinion
of the Committee upon the conduct of the Hon. Member.
He then drew an animated picture of the distress of the
poor of Ireland, and of those unhappy persons who had
thrown themselves on the shores of Scotland from that
country, and referred to the situation of One family, con-
sisting of a man and his wife, the whale amount of food
consumed by whom in a year was not in value more than
255. or ;28s. What the description of that food was which
could be procured for such a sum—fit for the use of human
beings—be was at a loss to conceive. One effect of the
proposed plan-would be"to remove from the neighbourhood
of Glasgow alone 1,000 poor families. The extent of the
perpetual emigration to our western counties from Ireland,
was well known to most Hon. Members ; even to the re-
mote county of Sussex they had penetrated in immense
numbers... Under. existing circumstances, English ca-
pital would not go to-.lreland. While here capital
could not be used to any advantage, no man would
lend it on Irish property, even though tempted by
the . sum of 5 per. cent. per annum ; for this reason,
they might lose their principal, and could not be very cer-
tain of the interest. He was one of those that could not
for a moment doubt that if Ireland was pacified—if Ire-
land were restored to her rights—English capital would
flow into it, and consequently its population would find
employment,—(Hear, hear.)—But so long as the people of
that country. should remain in their present state of misery ;
so long as the system of turning out of doors several poor
families in order to make one large farm—so long would it
be impossible to look for relief from the visitation of Ire-
land's population.
Mr. WOOLRYCHE WHITMORE should now merely
observe, that two points would require the utmost conside-
ration--the means of filling up the vacuum created by the
emigration, and also the means of supplying the large
sums of money necessary for carrying the plan into effect.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM begged the Right Hon. the
Secretary for . the. Colonies would favour him by saying,
was it the intention of his Majesty's Government to renew
the Passengers' Ad, notwithstanding the Report of last
Session? •
Mr. Secretary HUS.KISSON .felt in common with his
Right Hon. Friend near him, that there was no matter to
which it was desirable to call the attention of Parliament
earlier than that entitled to by the Hon. Baronet. It was
(as we understriod the Right Hon. Gentleman) the intention
of his Majesty's" Government to introduce the measure,
with some alterations 'in its miaor details. lie had only
risen to answer the question of the Hon. Baronet; but
should take that opportnnity to say that no time should he
lost in laying on the table all the papers connected with the
oitthieGt. With respect to the
:question, of itself, be should

repeat, that every possible degree of infurmatiun eon meted
with it should be laid before the Heuae.

The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. WILMOT NORTON requested that leave be
given to bring in a Bill to regulate the conveyance of pis•
sengers in merchant vesp!.% ftbt' ebb rot-E k3r tice UnitSd
Kinge6w, tb ibi:eign parts.
Mr. HUME felt opposed to the Bill, because, instead
of encouraging and facilitating emigration, it checked it to
a great degree:- If Hon. Gentlemen were to look to the
report of the Committee of five years since, they would
find that disease teas 'wafted 'to the shores of the Colonies

in as great a proiortioa as last rearez-th?.t. tmtteluntly
no teatti!-t MIS, we sliOtild 4part from the recommendation
of th 6 Committee. Therefore, before he should give his
sanction to the repeal of the Bill of last year, he should re-
quite some information.

Mr. 'Secretary HUSKISSON' protested against the in.
troduetion of any abstract principles into the discussig;
which 'night intexfere Vith thkt prltielpits of humanity......
h'eal-.) The Legislature was bodnd to 'protect
those who were not tupable of Alefentling themielves. The
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) seemed te think that iioinconvenience had arisen frohi our having last }''bar re=
scinded all regulations respecting the state of merchant ves-
sels carrying passengers. He should not then go into all
the heart-rending and disgusting details that had been re.
ceived at the Colonial Office, illustrative of the conse-
quences, and of either the nature or the extent of which,
the Hon. Gentleman, he was sure, bad little idea. With
one extract he begged leave to trouble the House : it was
from a letter of that Gallant Officer (Sir Jani6 empt),
who with in much credit to himself and satisfaction to the
country, governed the colony of Halifax. These were his
words :—" The ship James left Ireland for Halifai with
160 passengers, fiveof whom died on the passage; thirty-
five men left at Newfoundland, unable from illness to
proceed: The remaining 120, as well as the whole of
her crew, arrived at Halifax, labouring under typhus
fever."--(Hear, hear.) The clinihtc of the Colony at
which they arrived was healthy, and the time favourable;
nottVithistancling Which, out of a population of 7,000 souls,
800 died last year of the disesse thus introduced by the
Irish emigrants. Nor was this Bill without precedent, for
there Were already in existence laws for the regulation of
gaols add public transports. The Passage Act imposed
restrictions on the captains of vessels taking out emigrants
—such as, that they should take care to carry out a
sufficient quantity of provisions and water, and other re-
gulations for the prevention of those fevers on board ship
which were so injurious to the passengers, and to those
countries into which they were received. If the House
would not make some regulations of this kind, the countries
to which 'those emigrant's Were usually borne, would esta-
blish prohibitory restrictions in their own defence. All
he aked. was, that the Bill should he read. now, and its
imperfections diScussed on thesecotid readin'g.

The Hon. Mr. STANLEY, as one of the Committee
that had lagreed to abolish all restrictive regulations on
passage vessels, felt himself bound to state, that he bad
concurred in the opinion of the Committee; but, from in-
formation since received, lie was inclined to think that
opinion erroneous. He could see nothing objectionable in
moderate regulations for such vessels.
Mr. WARBURTON had no wish to oppose the mea-
sure, but was anxious to get some time to receive informa-
tion from Ireland—if emigration was good for any thing
it was for its cheapness.
Mr. ROBINSON had in his possession much corres.
pondence from the Colonies, which would prove the ne-
cessity of the repeal of last year's Act—in particular a
paper printed in St. 'John's, Newfoundland, which stated
that a vessel carrying 160 Irish Emigrants had arrived
there in a state bordering on starvation. He implored
the /louse to' give the measure its deepest consideration,
and the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) not to oppose the Bill.
Sir J. GRAHAM defended the conduct of the Com•
mittee that had recommended the abolition of the Restric-
tion Act.
•lsrd n'
the was then giving to bring in the Bill, and it was
read a. first time.

Mr. WILMOT HORTON postponed_.bis intended Bill
for enabling parishes to mortgage their Poor Rates for the
EMigration of Paupers.
Mr. HARVEY moved for a return of the number of
Subpsonas ad respondenilum issued from the. Exchequer
Office ; as also, the number of appearances which have
been. entered during the last six years.
Mr. GEORGE LAMB brought up the Report of, the
Committee on the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts.
The Report, recommending the repeal of, these Acts,
having been read,
. .
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved for leave to bring in a
Bill pursuant to the resolutions of the:Beport. The debate
on the Bill might be taken when the Bill was going into,
Committee.
Leave given, and the Bill read a Irst time.

The Noble Lord stated hisintentiun of moving, the second
reading some day next week, and carrying it into Commit-
tee on Monday se'nnfght.:
On the Order of the Day feithe second, reading of the
Chapel (Ireland) Bill,
Mi. HENRY ORATTAN expressed his disapprobation
of the Bill for the erection of a Chapel of Ease in Kilkeny,
county Dublin. The Chapel was not wanted.
Mi. MOORE stated, that the Vestry of Monkstown, the
perpetual Curate, and the Rector of the parish, had all
agreed on the expediency of erecting the proposed Chapel
of Ease.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that the concurrence
of a Vestry in Ireland was a criterion of the necessity of the
proposed Chapel. He trusted the Hon. Member would
agree to postpone the Bill.
Mr. MOORE postpOned the second reading of the Bill to
"Friday.
On Mr. MOORE's snoring the Order of the Day for the
second reading of the Bill for allowing the use of .fire on
board steam-vessels in Ireland,

Mr. HUME objected 'to such petty legislation. Why
not, if the Bill was good in its principle, apply it.to.the
whole country.
Mr. MOORE said, that it did extend to the whole• of
Ireland, and he was not aware that the disabilities it was
intended to remove existed any where else.
The Bill was then committed for Thursday next.
EAST RETFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the
East Retford Disfranchisement Bill.

Nathaniel Buxton, examined by Mr. -TENNYSON.-1
am a burgess of Retford. I certainly remember four elec-
tions, having been-a voter thirty years. I don't recollect
in what year Mr. Osbaldestone's election took place ; butl
• recollect I got no money then. I voted for Mr. Marsh.
The reason why I got no money was, that they did not give
any.—(A laugb.)At the next elaition I got two twenty
guineas. One of them was put in at my window, and the
other Leadbitter gave me. In 1820 I got forty guineas
also. At the lait election I was asked for my vote by Mr.
Thirake and Mr. Foljambe. When they asked me for it,
they said, " all shall be right." I answered that I should
vote as I pleased. I had often beard that expression they
made'use of, at Retford, but never knew the meaning of it.
—(A laugh.)
By several Members.—That expression, of " all shall be
right," was sail to thirty or forty in my presence. They
may have understood it if they liked.7—(A laugh.)—l.
can't say that the reason I received nothing at Mr. Marsh's.
election was there being no polling. I promised to vote
for both candidates—(A laugh)—but I did not receive a
farden.
William Grant examined—l am a Burgess of Retford.
have been so thirty years, and have never received election
money after the election. I know Mr. Mason of Retford,
but can't say that 1 ever received any thing of him. I
voted for the Duke of Newcastle's interest. Mr. Mason is
his agent there. I may have received some from him. I
can't say whether it was 20 or 40 guineas. I remember,
in 1820, when Evans and Crompton were elected. After
that election I received some bills. lean% say. what amount
they were of. I did not receive any at Mr. Oshaldestone's
election. I received a present then, but I did not know
where it came from. A man called several times to (rive it
me; when he gave it me he said nothing,—(A
It was after the elections that we used to receive the pre-,
sents. I never received any of that kind at any other
time. I mean bank notes when I say bills. I took care
of them when I got them.—(A laugb.)—l put them into
practice.--(Laughter.)
By Mr. FERGUSSON. —He had certainly seen Mr.
Alderman Parker, of East Bedard, since he had come. up
to Loridon.
The witness was ordered to withdraw. •
Mr. SYKES objected to the last question, on the
ground that the Committee had no evidence before them
as to who-Mr. Alderman Parker was.
Mr. TENNYSON was astonished at this objection,
seeing that Mr. Alderman Parker was already.before the
House, and was a petitioner on this very occasion. That
petition was on the table.--(Crisra of " Withdrawn, with-
drawn.")—No; it was not withdrawn, though the Hon.
Member, Mr. Sykes had withdrawn his notice upon it.--
Now, the fact was, that he (Mr. Tennyson) had been ap-
prised since he commenced this, examination, that Mr.
Alderman Parker had been dealing with these witnesses,
to influence them not to give their evidence honestly.
Mr. Aldgrmin WAITHMAN knew nothing about Mr.
Alderman Parker: He was most unwilling to take a lead-
ing part in sending the last witness to keep that gentleman
company in Newgate, who was before the Committee on
, the preceding yet Wooing ouch step Was not taken,