The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-12 00:00:00

with return of the manner and periods in which the same
has been expended. Of all moneys and other property of
which the Society of King's Inn is now possessed, or to
which it is now entitled, distinguishing how the same is
circumstanced, invested, or secured."—Ordered.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES REGULATION

- -
--------,
admitted that much might be said ; but with re- !anioney at four per cent. for the construction
gard to third-class fares much had been done to ;of their railways, whilst the return was only
better • the accommodation of the working classes , two and a half. How was the difference made up ?
who were conveyed by the third-class carriages. I Undoubtedly by public taxation.—(Hear, hear.) On
For some years past there had been a very great im- I all these grounds he objected to this Bill, and he believed
provement, and the directors of railways had come to i that if it were passed, the result would be a competition
the opinion that the interests of railway proprietors were I most unfair, most intolerable, most ruinous to the rail-
identical with those of the public. Under all the cir- ,! ways, most unjust to all classes, and most productive of
cumstances of the case, and considering that the railway ' jobbing and mischief. He could not consent to give any
companies expressed their willingness to meet the Go- ivote except one of direct negative to the motion before
vernment fairly and openly, he thought the the House.--(Cheers.)
Government would do well to consent to post- I Mr. WALLACE said he had been one of the first to
pone the measure until next session. In conclusion, . complain in that House of the monopoly of railways, and
he must say he did not think it was right to cast slurs his objection to the system was now rather increased
on railway proprietors with respect to the opposition to . than diminished. It had been stated that the public took
this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the opposi- no interest in that question, but he held in his hand a
tion was general ; and it was increased by the circum- petition which showed that that was not the case. It was
stance that the Government seemed so exceedingly 1 the petition of a number of merchants, manufacturers, and
anxious to pass the Bill at that late period of the session. ! tradesmen in Birmingham, complaining that a most
He should certainly vote for the amendment that the 1 grinding monopoly had been established by railway
Bill be read that day six months. I companies, and that they had interfered most materially
Lord SEYMOUR said all the railway committees with the free sending of goods to different parts of the
had come to the conclusion that the interests of the rail- country. He believed there were good grounds for
way companies were not sufficiently identical with those making more extensive changes than those proposed in
of the
betapubic. He thought it was very expedient that there the Bill. Having read that extract from the Railway
DISSENTERS' DISABILITIES. should
Mr. CHRISTIE said he had given notice of an amend- necessarily involve an investigation into their profits. tial paper, the Times itself. (The extract contained a
ment to a Bill, not now before the House, for the purpose With respect to the provisions of the Bill for carrying complaint of the treatment which travellers by the third-
of enabling Dissenters to practise as advocates in the the poorer classes at a cheaper rate, he thought no one in class trains experienced at the hands of the railway di •
Courts of Doctors' Commons. The Bill had been dropped, that House would do otherwise than approve of it. That rectors.) From the first time that these companies had
asid the opportunity of putting the amendment was taken provision itself showed the proper and reasonable spirit been established they had constantly ground the face of
away. Besides the disabilities to Dissenters practising which prompted the Bill, and the only consideration for the poor. They had systematically contrived their ar-
ia the Courts of Doctors'-Commons, they also laboured the House would be in what way that object could be rangements to compel people to take the first or second
under further disabilities as to admission to the Inns of best secured. With respect to the enactments regarding class carriages instead of the third.
Court, which had the privilege of calling to the bar, the conveyance of the mail, he considered it a power An HON. MEMBER then moved that the House be
shorter residence being demanded of graduates of the 'that ought to belong to the Government, not only as re- counted, and the gallery was cleared, but there were
Universities than of Dissenters. He quoted the opinion garded future but all existing railways. Then as' to found on counting to be a sufficient number present to
of Sir R. Peel at Tam worth, in 1834, on this subject, the patronage which it was said would be make a house. On our re-admission we found
and asked whether the Government had taken any steps vested by this Bill in the Board of Trade, Mr. WALLACE going through a statement of the
towards exercising their influence with the authorities of he must say he saw very little in that various rates of charges per mile upon the several rail-
those Inns for the removal of the disabilities and disad- objection. Whatever there might be in it, ways in Great Britain and Ireland, but it was impossible
vantages under which Dissenters laboured ? however, he was willing, as a member of the Committee, to make anything of his statement taken up at the close.
Sir R. PEEL said his attention had not been called to to take his share of the responsibility along with the The working classes could traveat an expense on
the question since the period the Hon. Member had Government. He could not, on the whole, see the one farthing a mile between heft wn which he of
repreely alluded to. He believed that the difference as to resi- slightest objection to the principle of the Bill ; and as sented and Glasgow, whereas between those great em-
dence, before being called to the bar, was to the machinery, whenever it might be desirable to alter poriums of manufactures, Birmingham and Manchester,
not •applied as between Dissenters and the mem- and amend that, it could be best done in Committee. the charge was 2d. per mile. He advocated an entire
bers of the Church of England, - but between those Mr. BERNAL said the present measure appeared to change of the system, which was at present constructed
who had taken degrees and those who had not. him to be so peculiarly important in its probable conse- in favour of the few and against the many. He should,
His general opinions on this subject were in conformity quences that he could not refrain from offering therefore, give the Bill his best support. He was de-
with those which he had before expressed, but he thought a few observations upon it. He would pass by cidedly in favour of competing lines ; and he could not
it would bo for the benefit of all parties that whatever the attempt at insinuation that had been made guess any reason why there should not be competing
was done should be done with the cordial consent of the that all parties opposed to this Bill were supposed lines in every direction. The railways from London to
presiding authorities instead of attempting to force to have an interest in railway property. For his Liverpool paid 12 per cent. Why should there not be
compliance by legislation. own part he never held a share in a railway, or two lines, with 6 per cent as a sufficient remuneration?
'Mr. FERRAND wished to know from the Right canal, or an assurance company in his life, but he did Now, with regard to the conduct which the Post-office
Honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham) whether not presume to say that those who did so were not had experienced from the railway companies, he thought
he had any objection to lay on the table of the bound to give the results of their experience there. must be a very strong impression on the public
House the evidence taken before the coroner at Bolton to those less informed upon such subjects. mind.—(Hear, hear.) He could give many instances
in relation to the loss of life from the bursting of a steam- The present was a measure that depended upon its de- wherein the necessity of some decided restraint upon
engine? ; tails. He willingly assented to having third-class car- them was proved to be absolutely necessary. Whilst
SirJ, GRAHAM said he was not aware that it was in riages for the purpose of giving facility to the tra- upon this subject, he might be permitted to say tat
the power of any authority to compel the coroner yelling of the poorer classes ; but before railways it had been stated the Scottish people were willing lotto
to produce the evidence taken in his court, but were established, how did the poorer classes travel— have mail-trains on a Sunday, in order to avoid the de-
he would make inquiries on the subject, and if the why, by waggons. For his own part, he knew no secretion of the Sabbath. This was all nonsense—all
Hon. Member would repeat the question, he would en- class of persons who were more likely to be benefited by absolutely untrue. A few persons, calling themselves)
deavour to reply to it. railways than the poor. As to the option to be given the people of Scotland, said his countrymen Were against
Mr. WODEHOUSE wished to call the attention to the Government or the Board of Trade, which was Sunday travelling ; but these were only such persons as
of the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir James Gra- the same, to purchase any railway, he believed it was the Sir Andrew Agnew, who knew nothing at all of the real
ham) to the case which had
,occurred at the first time such a proposition had ever been put forward, feelings of the people. To revert, however, to the Bill
last Spring Assizes in Norfolk. Two persons named When first the question of railways was brought for- before the House, he had only one objection to it, and
Knowles, afters being tried before Lord Abinger, ward in that House there was some degree of negligence that was that it did not go far enongle-e(Hear, and
and sentenced to 15 years' transportation, had re- on the part of the Government ; but they now pro- laughter.) No, he repeated, it did not by any means
go
ceived a complete pardon and returned home. He had posed to crush the hopes of rising railway companies. far enough. Still, so far as it did go, it was a most excel-
no right whatever to ask on what ground the royal The contingent patronage incident to such a control as lent measure, calculated to do a great deal of good, stud
mercy had been extended to these parties ; but the Lord it was proposed to give to the Government would be to reflect very high credit upon the Government. He
Lieutenant of Norfolk was placed in a situation of pecu• attended with great inconvenience, if not danger. It trusted Ministers would not heed anything the directors
liar responsibility 'it was his bounden duty tomaintain the would be necessary at length to make it the law that no might do, but go on
firmly with their measure, whi
public peace, and if the Government wished it he was person having an interest in a railway, or an employment certainly should have his very best support. ch
sure the office would be placed in. their hands without a in one, should votein theelectionofaMemberofParliament Mr. C. BULLER said he could not 61p remarking
sigh. If the Lord-Lieutenant were indeed to retain his There was a complication of clauses which would destroy upon the animadversions which had been indulged in by
situation he wished to have an answer to his question the effect of the Bill. He believed that the tide of com- the Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board
from the Right Hon. Baronet They asked no more munication would be checked by the Bill, and he there- of Trade, as to the motives of those gentlemen who
than justice—they wished for nothing vindictive. fore advised the Right Hon. Gentleman to be cautious. opposed this Bill, and the self-laudation with which he
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was:placed in a somewhat The Bill was compulsory in its object, in its intent, and had spoken of the conduct of the Government. That
embarrassing position, as the lion. Gentleman had sat in its language, and he called on the House to reject it. Right Hon. Gentleman really seemed to suppose that
down without asking him any question—(Hear, hear)— Mr. COLQUHOUN defended the vote he gave on a the opposition to this Bill had been got up from the
although he had made a kind of attack upon himself for former occasion with regard to the Bill. He objected to basest and most interested motives, and that every the mode: mode: in -whiCh lie had administered.his office. With the tone of the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of sentient from the views of the Government was influ-
respectat4 the cases under consideration, he had given the Board of Trade. When he saw the Member for enced in his opinions and actions by those Parliamentary
the advice which he had done because he felt satisfied South Lancashire and the Member for Reading, agents whom he had taken upon himself to denounce in
that the ends of justice imperatively demanded it. and when he saw Mr. Saunders and Mr. Hudson, such strong and unmeasured terms as the most active
He had received from the Noble Lord the Lord Lieu- whom the Right Honourable Gentleman praised so and formidable opponents of the Bill. He (Mr. Buller)
tenant of the county of Norfolk the greatest assistance, much, meeting in London within two days after the must confes ad heard so much of this self-laudation
and the Noble Lord and himself had discharged their Bill came out, and expressing their strong opinions that he was suiteqsick of it, because his experience told
respective duties in the most harmonious manner, against it, could he suppose that such men—men of him that when Government did array great masses of the
THE RAILWAYS BILL. such intelligence—were played on as the tools of lawyers people against them, it was sometimes done quite as
On the order.of the day for the adjourned debate upon and agents out of doors ?—(Laughter.) The Right Hon. much by their own folly, as at other times by their own
the Railways Bill being read, , Gentleman said he would not allow thisßill to be postponed ; honesty and public virtue. And he thought, when he
Mr. BRIGHT saidehat he was one of the Members of he would not consent to a postponement of the Bill, recollected the course pursued durin the long period
that House who, previous to the discussion of the Bill, stating that it was founded on the third report of the of ten years by those now in power, but then in op-
, it . . . • • h ,
came to the conclusion that was not a measure advan- Committee, which was a short one, and published many position—when e recollected that for all that period
tageous to the public, and that it would give the Govern- months ago. He did read that report, and his ob- they had organised into a conspiracy against the public
ment powers dangerous to the country. He had listened jections to it were as strong then as before the good all the private interests of the nation, it was, to say
with the greatest attention to the Right Hon. Gentleman measure was introduced ; and to show that all was the least of it, somewhat presumptuous in any Member
opposite (Mr. Gladstone) speaking for two hours, and in not approval on the part of the railway companies with of the present Government to indulge in the self- appro-
the whole of his speech he only disguised, in- respect to this measure, he quoted an extract from the bation and cant of which they had for the last few days
stead of explaining, the objects of the Bill. The Railway Chronicle warning them of the consequences of heard so much.—(Hear, hear.) For his own part, he
Bill consisted of forty-eight clauses. He would, for thiaßill. What'were the words of an enlightened man candidly acknowledged he did not participate in those
the sake of making himself more clearly under- who, in one of the journals, had made observations upon feelings of animosity, distrust, and suspicion, which were
stood, point the attention of the ,House to some of this measure—the words of a man who, from his posi- attempted to be raised against the railway interest of
the clauses where this power was given. Clause 7 had tion, must be supposed to have watched the immediate this country.—(Hear, hear.) He must own that when-
already been alluded to, wherein the -Lords of Commit- effects which it had produced ? Why, he said that there ever he had to travel by railway he travelled in a most
tee are empowered to purchase any future rail way after could be no doubt but that the immediate effects of this agi- comfortable and commodious carriage, at three. imes the
the expiration of fifteen years, and after giving one tation had been to depreciate the value of shares in the speed he formerly could, and generally for the same rate
month's notice. The, Bth clause confirmed this power market. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that an im- of fare as on the top of a coach. He could not then but
Now he could not understand what was the mean- pression had gone forth among the public, that this think them a great good, and he thought it but fair in
ng of the words in these clauses, unless they measure would give to Parliament the right to purchase any one not to look too harshly upon any imperfections,
went to sanction the purchase of railways. Fur- any railway it pleased, and had complained that such an which it was not to be wondered at should exist in so
ther on , these powers were again confirmed impression was a very erroneous one, because the men- new a system.—(Hear, hear.) The general argument
as in clauses nine, twelve, fourteen, and many others. sure would not give to Parliament the power to purchase on which he intended to found a few observations, was
He wished to know how Acts of Parliament were to be railways, and therefore he had contended that the fears this—that they should not rashly interfere with the
interpreted—whether they were to be construed by their of the railway companies were without foundation. But present system of railways, for by them the public had
own words, or by the explanation a Minister might he would ask, suppose, when the Poor-law Bill had been obtained the greatest increase of power and comfort that
choose to give of their intention ? The Right Honour- first proposed, in 1833, the Government of that day had had taken place in our time. And before they started their
able Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had argued, the proposed all the clauses of the Poor-law Bill, except that plan of interference, he thought it but right that the
other evening, that the Executive could not of it- clause which would bring the Bill into operation by en- House and the public should have the opportunity of
self buy up railways, but that Parliament must abling rates to be levied—suppose all the machinery for contrasting that which they proposed, with that which
be appealed to on the subject, as Parliament bringing the Bill into immediate operation had been pre- was now in existence.—(Hear, hear.) There was no
would have to find the money. They all knew Parlia- pared, and left in a state of abeyance, but that that doubt evils in the management of the present system,
ment would have to find the money, and they also knew machinery, by a single vote in the estimates, could, at but he asked them to satisfy his mind that there were no
that if this Act were passed there would be very great any moment, be called into action; would not the oppo- evils in the plan which they proposed to substitute ?If difficulty, at a future day, in dissuading Parliament from nents of the new poor-law have considered that as a the evils were so great as stated in the present system
finding the money to put into force the provisions of great step in advance on the part of their adversaries ? of railways, it behoved that House to give a very at-
an Act deliberately sanctioned by' the Legislature. Or suppose in the case of the Factory Bill of last year, tentive consideration to the subject before they deter-
Besides, let them look at the effect of this one all the machinery had been prepared, except the funds, mined what alteration should be made in it. He con-
month's notice. Was it to be supposed that which could at any time, by a single vote in a Committee fessed, howeverethat his great objection to the present
this one month's notice would furnish sufficient of Supply, have been procured, would not the opponents proceeding was, that they should be called upon to legis-
time for the Parliament to inquire into the desirableness, of the principle of that measure have considered it as a late on such a subject in so short a period of
and confirm the policy of the purchase of a railway ? serious advance towards a system of policy which time. Were they, on the first intimation of evil
Did it not rather read thus :—that the Executive was they all deprecated? —(Hear, hear.) The policy might to adopt any plan or remedy Which the Government, at
to decide the question of purchase or no purchase ;that be right or it might be wrong, but if they passed this that late eiod of the session, might choose to point
having determined on the former, they gave the month's measure, they would have advanced an important ste out to theme? Were they to be called on in the month
notice, and then came to Parliament for the money, ex- in their scheme of railway legislation.--(Hear, hear. of July, for the first time, to pass a Bill, founded on
petting that it would be voted as a matter of course ? If they passed this Bill, the Government might come five reports, which he, for one, candidly confessed he
He would maintain that this Bill, sanctioning the prin- down on any day when there was a Committee of had never read?--(lronical cheers from the Treasury
ciple of purchasing railways, was erroneous. Whatever Supply, propose an estimate for the purchase of a par- benches.) He did not think it necessary to plead guilty
the intention of the Government was, no man could read titular railway, with all the forces of the Government to to any dereliction of duty for not having read these vo-
it without coming to that conclusion, and that was bear on that particular question—(Hear, hear)—say it lames, for the House had been most fully engaged on
the conclusion the Railway Directors and the was a question on which they staked their own exist- various subjects of the highest importance, and there
public had come to. He did not believe that ence—(lmmense Opposition cheers)--he did not say this had been quite sufficient to fully occupy the mind of
the principle of purchasing these great works was with reference to past events—(Renewedcheering)—but every Hon. Member. And it, moreover, had never en-
one that was deemed by the public to be any Government which possessed the confidence of a tered into his mind to conceive that any Government, at
advantageous. Private enterprise had done more for large majority of that House would always have such a period of the session, would call upon the
this country than the Government or the Executive had such an advantage as no particular railway—as House to legislate upon a subject at once so
ever done. He thought these measures should be left not all the railway interests united--could overcome, large and so important.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then,
to individuals. If the great change proposed by the The Bill gave great power and patronage to the Board this Bill, first of all, went to interfere with
Bill was to be made, he wished to know upon what of Trade, and consequently the Right Hon. Gentlemen, private property in such a way as never was before heard
principle it was to be made, and why? No case had been the present and the late President of the Board of Trade, of in that House—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—in a
made out hitherto for the adoption of the course proposed supported the measure.—(Hear, hear.) This Bill was way, too, contrary to all our habits, all our institutions,
The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of high profits founded on the third report of the Committee, but the and the spirit of British enterprise ; for this Bill directly
and per tentage, but there was no proof of large incomes Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that many important proposed to give to the Government the power of taking
having been made. Those incomes had probably not suggestions in it were taken from the fifth report, an the railways into their own hands. But the Right Hon.
averaged more than 5 per cent From a statement now additional reason why the House should not proceed President of the Board of Trade said they could not act
before the public, four only out of seventy railways with the Bill during the present session. He conjured upon the clause which gave this power. Then why was
nt. There was made 10 per cent.,
nothin and all of them varied from 6to 3 per the House to consider that nothing could be more dan- such an inoperative clause left in the Bill ? Clauses one,
ceg to show that railway proprietors gerous than hasty interference with such important inte- seven, eight, and others he could turn to, all gave or
were grossly exacting from the public, or that the public rests. He thought the provisions of the Bill regarding confirmed the powerof purohase, and the sixteenth clause
were suffering from high charges. The Right Hon. third-class carriages, and indeed regarding conveyance not only says railways may be purchased, but actually
Gentleman had spoken of third-class trains. Now, no generally, were judicious, and would prove useful. It was enacts in whom they are to be vested when they are pur-
man more than himself wished that the working said that railway companies enjoyed a monopoly. Why, chased.—(Hear, hear.) Then there was the 38th clause,
classes should have every accommodation on rail- that was the case of all companies with very an exceedingly stringent one, by which Government was
ways, and his opinion was, that to no class large capital and very-large investments. Such was the to get a control over all existing railways, as well as
had the railway companies given more facilities case with dock companies, water cempanies, and gas those hereafter to be made ; therefore the public were
of travelling than the working classes. The Right companies.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that when cum- quite right in the interpretation which they had put upon
Hon. Gentleman in his speech had no less than four panies had a monopoly, they would be extortionate, but the clauses of the Bill. It would not alarm the public so
times adverted to the monopoly by railways, he thought all companies, and railway companies among them, had much if the only power the Government had was that of
that that statement came with a bad grace from one who the dread of competition before their eyes, and this was purchasing the railway. But the Government was ems
had sanctioned monopolies of every description. Railway quite evident from what transpired before the several powered by the 38th clause to make contracts with
ox-
companies had conferred a great benefit on the comma- Railway Committees ; the directors feared competing isting railways.
nity ;it gave them a cheaper and more safe mode of tra- lines, and they knew that the üblic a Mr.
veiling. There were no establishments in this country car- once raise their voice against p
extortionatewould de-t not so. W. E. GLADSTONE obserVed that that was
ried on with such admirable management and arrange- mands. He could weary the House by a Ines Mr. C. BULLER said that if that was not so, he did
ment as the railroads. There was nothingin the Govern- tition of railways that kept down their fares by not know the meaning of the clause. If any railway
ment establishmentswhich could compare with them in the the fear of competition and by the wholesome dread of company wanted to increase its powers, they had not to
nicety and admirable propriety of their management. public opinion. He did not think the Bill otthe Govern- come before Parliament, but before the Lords of the
Government 'ships were not so well managed. No ment would be effectual in reducing fares. The Bill Committee, and so, in fact, to come before the Board of
person who went in Gevetaament packets could conferred an inquisitive power into the affairs of a pri- Trade. It was on this ground that he obected to this
say but that the conduct which' he met with on board vete company hitherto unparalleled, and than which no- measure. It seemed to him extraordinary) that at the
those packets was inferior to what was to be thing could be more odious. The seventh clause was present day parties should get up in the House of Core-
met with in packets under the management of public still more objectionable than the third, and gave the mons of Great Britain and defend private enterprise,
companies. The management. of the Post-office was not Government a power of buying up railways when the which had made this country the greatest in the world.
placing in the hands of profit exceeded ten per cent. after a certain time of It appeared to be the wish of the Board of Trade
cyontvheeymanlcne of asses eras.— formation. He did not believe that anything could be to interfere as mach as possible with the grime
tshuechGaosvewrnoumlednjtuthsteif
What a long time had passed by before a reduction in the more unreasonable or unfair to private individuals, than vete enterPrisos of her Majesty's subjects, He
rate of postage was obtained. At that very moment the provisions of this clause. He considered the Bell did not know where this interference was to end;
the mails from London to Manchester were sent by a was an unjust interference with mereantilo industry probably by and bye they weak{ have an assistant corr.l-.
round-about, circuitous way, instead ofoing by a way and mercantile enterpri§o, Suoh legislation had missioner to cut their meat for them, because :;ne ; and all the always failed, and deserved to fail.—(Hear, hear.) vernment Co}})d do everything better than any one else.
Go-
representations and Chamber Take the example of the Royal Canal, which had been Let them look at the turnpike err of this country.
which
of Commerce of Manchester were neglected. But there in existence for about 30 years. In
would cb nmvaedyet them
thean
Corporationhou r earlier
1811 it had pro,. They had been made withoet the assistance of the Go-
were other considerations connected. with this ones- dosed 16s. Bd. in one nailer, and from that .tirae up to vernment. The roade ia Prance had been made under
tion besides that of the economical one.---(Hear, hear.) the present hour the Inctnale had been nil What was the superinteodeasee of the Government, and he would,
There was a consideration of muchpolitical consequence, the numbae of tons of coals carried by this canal in leave At to those who had travelled in France and in
The London and Birmingham Railway alone empleyed 1836? Eighteen tons.—(Laughter.) Captain Leave; Vngland to say which were the best.--(Hear, hear.)
persons, With salaries varying had told them that railways might be coniolooted by the The lighting of the towns in England had been accom-
from 1,500 to 2.000
spent more than 200,0001. Government at a saving of 25 per cent., and so delighted plished lay private individuals, and where, he would
variety of other expendi- was the Right Hen, Baronet with this gentleman that ask, where were there towns better lighted than in this
fforormwa7goeLs.tostolr,ooes,Otl.o,oalsn,datnhdeya
tare. The Great Western Rail,aY Must pay lie had reselved to have further information on this sub- country? Even the buoying and lighting of the coasts
more than this, and if all this influence ject. Captain Lewes proposed that the Government of this country was not left to the Government, but to
fell into the hands of the Executive Government, should buy uP the railways in this country, alleging, as the Trinity House, and where was Theist better lighted
would it not affect the freedom of the constituencies of the reason, the great saving of expense. He was afraid than than of Great Britain? great Bedford
those places through which the railroads passed ? there were some parts of the country which, without Level, that was the work of private individuals,
(Hear, hear.) The constituencies of those pieces would Government interference, would never be supplied with Hew were all the colonies of this country planted ?
be under the thumb of Government, and they would railways, and this he said in the face of the example Why, by private companies, and not by the Govern-
possess the influence of- the same description of the Belgian railways.—(Hear, hear,) In that , merit. Such being the case, why should they put them-
which the Government of the day i
4.Ways 134(1 iii country the Government confined the communication I selves into the leading-strings of tho Government, and
taken from his duty that he I might think of this proposal, but it appeared tst hh4), flees of this country had been accomplished ? As to ensi-
Devonport, Rochester, and Pembroke. 'What happened to the great towns. He did not know what the House the Itelde those great principles by which the great-
candtuete, whose opinions I from comparison, the most unjost 4 en. 11140 pro, I gration, he did not think that the Noble Lord's plan had
matigKhetnvdoatle, wf.ohretrieipaGgouvaerrdnmwaesut
he did not approve of, would happen at those places, 1 coral that could be made. It vasS inaPOSSilkle to pittee 1 effOeted- so much as the perseverame of private indi-
-4 postmasters-general. Look at the
For the last two years he had traveled as much by . the railways of England and France, or Belgium, on , viduals. It was absurd te Attempt to put railroads under
railways as any mao, and for civility, propriety of cone; the same footing. If the French Government desired
duct, and fairness in every respec h
t, e could say that 'to have a particular railway, they had nothing to do , inefficiency that had been shown lay such officers—an
the surveillance
no iiistiNtions could stand a coniperistin with the railway but tq carry out their object; there was no expeese ; Inefficiency that he would venture to say would never
esteblishments of England, But even if there were Sien) . except that of construction.---(Hear, hear:), -In this have taken place under the control of private indi-
evils, the remedy proposgd lay the li,ioiTion;Presidens of county y they woOld heve tO, come into contact with , viduals. Then, again, there was the Admiralty, a por-
the Board of Trade was an inefficient one. It was powerful private interests. They had, by private capital, don of the Government, he would venture to say, that
well known that Government establishments were worse covered 2,000 miles of this country with railroads, rind had been more backward than any other in adopting int-
managed than any others. The constitutional principle they carried twenty-six millions of people ye,arly by provements. Would they have got rid of the
)poseof the Bill was also a dangerous one, and he should op- railways, which originated in private enterprase.---- prejudice against steamers if they had been left
' it: With respect to a revision of fares, he (Cheers.) The Belgian Government ' httd b,omoved to the Lords of the Admiralty ? Look at the Halifax

_-

packets. They were called ceffins(and properly so, be-
cause they almost invariably scult.ithair, brawl-at an un-
timely grave. Look at the length' of time that they
took to cross the Atlantic, and yet it had been asserted
that it was impossible to effect a quicker passage than
they did until the establishment of the Great Western
team-ship, which proved the contrary!' London
steamers, too, that were the property of private indivi-
duals, would carry parties from London to IfOulogne for
far less than a Government packet would take parties
from Dover to Calais. He thought the public right in
supposing that private enterprise was the best'calculated
to excite activity, and to ensure the public interest. They
were equally right in supposing that whenever they put
great branches of trade into the hands of a Government,
there was apt to be great apathy upon the subject, and a
considerable portion of political jobbing. He objected
to this system of centralisation, because it was incon-
sistent with the national character, and made men act as
slaves instead of free men. But then it was said that
the provisions of part of the Bill were for the
benefit of the poor of the country. That might
be so, but he must confess that he certainly was
not prepared for any Government providing for the
poor, in the manner laid down in the Bill. The Bill,
instead of providing for the poor man at the expense of
the Government, did it at the expense of the railway
company. Now, in his opinion, such a system was not
worth the legislation of that House. He could under-
s'and how this clause was to work, although the distinc-
tions between rich and poor were to be drawn. For
what had been the result ? Why, where the third-
class carriages had been made comfortable, gentlemen
had gone into them. The fact was, they could not make
a distinction between the rich and poor man, He should
like to ask a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, and in
doing so, he hoped he should not be considered in-
vidious—but
he wished to know who was Jack Cade
now?--(Laughter.) He thought that this dense came
with a very bad grace from a Government who had
charged them with being Jack Cedes, because they
wished to lighten the hours of labour in factories. if
II! understood rightly, Jack Cade tried to regulate the
price of commodities. But here the Government
wanted the railroad 'proprietors to pay the expenses of'
convenience to the poor. When they on hie side of
the House came forward to decrease the Lours of la-
bour, they were met by the name of Jack Cade by a
Government who were endeavouring to interfere with
private property in the unexampled manner proposed
by this Bill. He thought there was one thing that ren-
dered the present time the most unfit to introduce such a
measure, and that was because the whole plan of rail-
ways was likely to be greatly improved. Let them look
at the proposition for atmospheric railways. Why, if that
could be brought Into operation, there was not a single
turnpike road upon which they might not have a railway.
The Bill seemed to him to prevent the improvement of'
existing railroads au much as it did new ones. He
trusted hp had not occupied too much of the time of the
House In bringing before it arguments, which he did not
pretend to say ouzht to have such weight with the
House as to iielacp it to decide on such a subject as
His, But he had presented considerations which had
sufficient weight in his own mind to induce him to say
that this House ought to pause on such a question be-
fore it adopted the measure irrevocably at the present
period of the ;elision. He believed that the evils of
monopoly with regard to the railways, that were so
much talked of, were exceedingly hypothetical.
They were looking rather at what the rail-
roads were ibur or Ave years ago, when it
was considered impossible that so many competing
lines could come into play. But it was the general
statement that the country was now becoming coyered
with a '4 uct-work" of railroad, which would always
secure a large amount of competition. This competi-
tion would be the real safeguard to the public, and they
ought not to deprive the public of that safeguard till
they were perfectly sure, on the best information and
fullest discussion of the subject, that they had hit upon
some plan which would give the public a better security
than it now_possessed, both for good management, secu-
rity, and cheapness. He perfectly admitted that rail-
ways required control and regulation—he perfectly ad-
mitted that. The law did control all private enterprise;
he had never heard that trade was to be exempted from
the operation of the law. 1,3 t them adopt regulations,
then, for these establishments, but let them apply those
restrictions by legislation, and not by the wholesale plan
of transferring the whole of the railways over to
the will of the Government. Surely a subject
of this magnitude required the meditation of one
recess, and the discussion of at least one session.
Let them have a Bill, making all the restrictions neces-
sary, and to such a Bill he would give his support. But
let them not pass, in such a hurry, a measure like this,
which handed over the control of all the railways to the
Executive Government.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said he concurred in most of the
observations that had fallen from the Hon. Member for
Liskeard. He had passed a glowing eulogium on pri-
vate energy and enterprise, and none would more
readily concur in the justice of that eulogium than
himself. But the House was not called on to say
that all private enterprise in this respect was to be sub-
mitted to the Government ; the measure only claimed a
reservation of the power to control these lines at a future
time. The Bill only reserved to the Government a dis-
cretionary power. He should vote for the Bill on the
simple understanding that they were not about to inter-
fere with enterprise. He would admit that they had
not the elements of the question before them ; if he
thought that the Bill implied one-tenth part of what had
been attributed to it, he would oppose it. But he be-
lieved those statements were totally founded on
misconstructions. Among those assumptions were
some very extraordinary ones. Honourable Gentlemen
seemed to suppose that the whole management of the
railroads was to be undertaken by the Government
This was not the case; though it was not impossible that
the Government might hereafter adopt a plan somewhat
resembling that pursued in France, of purchasing the
land for the line, and allowing private capital to carry
out the work. He did not pronounce any opinion on
this plan, but he thought it not unjust; for Parliament
at the present period of railway history should have
some degree of control. He had a strong sense of the
benefits which the railway companies had conferred on
the country. Considering the vast amount of their
business, there was but little cause for complaint ; very
great accommodation was afforded to the pub-
lic. But still it could not be forgotten that they
had arrived at a point at which the greater part of all
the necessary lines of communication were constructed,
and twenty or thirty years hence they might have to
interfere at great disadvantage. He confessed that, at
first, he looked at the Bill with some apprehension--.
(Hear, hear)—and he still objected to some of the
clauses ; but that was no reason why the Bill
should be prevented from going to the second
reading. He had great doubts as to, the policy
of the guarantee, as calculated to rew.'ove all motives for
the good management of a line, The second clause was
also a point for consideration. But these difficulties
must be met now or at Some future time, or they must
sit down quietly with their hands folded, and submit to
all the consequences, however inconvenient to the public.
Mr. GISBORNE commenced by saying that he never
heard a speech which had so completely exhausted the
sukjeet as the speech which he had just heard. He
must say he was struck at the singular contrast which
existed between the Right Hon. Gentleman and the
Hon. Gentleman opposite. The speech of the Right
,Hon. Gentleman was, no doubt, one of great
talent; but it was a slashing speech, full of attacks
upon every person, and imputing motives, so that one
might have thought that the speech came from the
Colonial-office, though the measure came from the Board
of Trade. He did not think the Right Hon. Gentleman
was justified in saying that they endeavoured to
stifle all discussion, and not to allow the Right
Hon. Gentleman to introduce his Bill. The. present
Government seemed to him to be very desirous of
casting imputations on their opponents. So on the
Bank Charter Bill, , the Right Hon. Gentleman at the
head of the Government had said that he was a friend to.
non-convertibility, because be opposed that Bill. But it
was always the case with those who manufactured quack
medicines to be very angry if they were not taken. Now
what was the history of this Bill ? When the Right
Hon. Gentleman went into Committee, he thought he
was pregnant with a great scheme ; and when he came
out he was no doubt disconcerted at his little abortion.
The Right Hon. Gentleman produced his hypothetical
outline, but it was sadly cut down, and he was obliged,
to abandon it. Tho present Bill was supported by the
late and the present President of the Board of Trade,
but it was not a little curious that while one considered
the power of purchase as the main provision of the Bill,
the other thought that the revision clause was the ha.. portant part of it. Now, he would try the Bill by a -Jot
unfair test. He would suppose a President of the Bo Ord of
Trade living some years ago possessing, if th:„t were
possible the united wisdom of both, and that the provi-
sions of that Bill were to come into operati:on now, how
would.it apply to the London and Birmi,2,gliam Railway?
With regard to the 10 per cent. clau,o, the London and
Birmingham Railway Company would be too wary to
divide a clear annual prot, atnonnting to more than
9Z 19s, In point of fe-t, the 10 per cent. clause was in
operation at this Lioment. They thought it enough to
have a divide,:m of 10 per cent., and they refused the less
palatah,le traffic, such as coals and minerals. They
`reuld not dirty their hands with coal.— (Laughter and
cheers.) They even laid a prohibition on the coals which
were brought on the Midland Counties Railway, which
could be brought, as he was prepared to prove, at three
farthings per ton per mile. They could not deal with
railways under the provision clause. Then it was said
that they would purchase railways. Did any matt in the
kingdom, who was left at large, believe in the practica-
bility of buying up those railways? There were 40 miles
of railroad at Exeter, and 60 at York, and the manage-
ment of these was to be in a board here. The Right
Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade,
called something a farce. He would use an equally ex-
pressive word, and say that the right of purchase was all
gammon.—(Laughter.) Everybody knew it could not be
acted upon. Evidence was given before the Committee
as to the extent of the power of revision which the Go-
vernment should possess, and no part of the
hypothetical outline was so completely smashed as this
power of revision. It was shown that the Government
could not act on it. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
misrepresented him (Mr, Gisborne) when he said that
he was giving the Government a more extensive power.
What he said was, and he still retained the same opi.
nion, that there was no medium between allowing the
largest competitiors,and the Government taking all rail-
ways into their hands. Under the present system they
had the power of making improvements, not only of a
mechanical kind, but (in the way of economieal
managements, which would not take place if'
railways were in the hands of the Government. He was
even afraid that, under the Government, they would fat!
behind other °canaries with respect to their manage-
ment. regretted to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman*
say that competition wt...s no protection to the public in the case of railways. He thought the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman should have abstained from expressing such am