The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-19 00:00:00

. . _ .. .
- • .
ttid. two oili.r '• '0 ;:- •• - r-• -. • - , principal '0 of tne.kown, Cld he had thre,s' It'll ich he knew of was that of Lord Chatham, by
Sttilissmss ls,ss.s. :a.:,ritiitt ed.
,bv'_.,.. thein.of'"the..eliolge.i. bro-ught against addinss to the County. • tattoo and t . •
s, ,
,•:..st tie n-eed the Committee, notknowing the c:rcumstaiices . Rtpresen •. , , sans-
- t o_cha,,,ease, would nots*Ftunie any thingntifavouralile'to the feriing the franchise from decayed' boroughs to
, 5.1,.., 'sr of,e,t indiiitittal from the' ex-name -statement theY large and populeus towns. It was no objection
is a nea7l. As to what -the- Lord President' had gaid upon the
; °c'ca9'o,l,'all thr..the did was- ill writin ~- and therefOre .o id b Imr,
.. . (., ui e
to urge against going into a Committee,- that the
reserreds 3 for
f: correctnesssaid, that Captain Brown had been ac- .' . '' - • Re o
tformers - were not agreed among themselves
t.ls, BENNETTI• • Len. plans. If they did exactly tally with
finit..tedby•the:Lord President uynn his own .confession of 'his as t
1.,h
,gout,d in defiance of the opinion of 'the whole of the police each other, it. would be said that they had all
"nasSibeitown. In Short., It was part of the old regurtr Scotch- come from the'. same Officina. It was' well.ols-
-/'iSsilr‘sfvuss.—,sup_norting an abuse whenever it mine to light. served- OR the. preceding night, that the diffe-
,„, , 0 ovirse Grants were then voted:— - '-"•, r la ' , .,
~,G, owsPensions on the Irish Establishment • - £20,795 rences of opinion among the Religious Reformers,
4 defray the charge of the Half-pay of the Officers of did not prevent the
establishment of the
Refor-
'l),e Local Mllitia ' l9 800 .matron, yet their differences were. more nume-
To; defray the charges of Corps to be disbanded inflino. - ' .
.
,1-,alld, m 1821 • 1-.3,12/ toils and more .important than those of the poll-
'" defray the charges of Corps to be dish nd d in Ire 'a
e., .-.. , tical Reformers of the present day. They differed
land., in 1841' = ' • - 2i,193 Vote ofboth doctrine and discipline, and yet were
Credit on account of the Ordnance Service for .. : upon 1821 —' •
- . - 150,000 now etijoyiog the blessings of the glorious tri,
The Ilauselhen resumed, and the Chairman reported pro- urniili of their cause.—(Hear, hear !)--.-Ile would
gress,' and 'the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
,0„4 was then ordered, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR not dwell longer on this • subject. The question
!_e EXCREQUER, 'that the House should again resolve 'had been so ably discussed already that he could
"sit into the Committee on' Monday sennight. .
do no more than repeat the arguments which
• . PARLIAMENTARY . REFORM. •
On the motion of Mr. LAMBTON,. the Order of
others had used. He had early entertained the
...
th,
of the necessity of Reform, and he
e Day was read for resuming the debate on the conviction
State of the Representation of the 'People. was proud• to profess the prinCiples of the school
.
1.1 In. Wisv.mi, expressed jiis. earnest. hope that of such illustrious politicians as Fox, Saville,.and
Chatham. It must besavident to every one who
Rie nousei would accede to the motion of the
reflected on passingsevents, that Reform was in
tli°ll. Member. In the present distressed state of
its progress, and it could not now be stopped.
three
"untry, when the amount of . the taxes was
He would therefore rather deal with it now in
form times as great as it was 30 years ago,•Re-
a friendly manner - while that might- be done,
ps°l was loudly called for by the' Voice of the
than when it should have assumed a-character of
nor
and: that voice it would be neither wise
violence. Now was the time to redress the er-
r e c.Pedient to disregard. He concluded by
s
tors of the Constitution—now it was safe and
UPPortincr the motioo.
s s, .
..
Air, Serjeant ONSLOW thought the measure of
practicable to remove the vices in its practice,
tk•
• tsR lion, Gentleman opposite was highly objec- and repair the damages which
•it had sustained;
ionable in its principle, -since it went to disfran-
a time might come when we should regret that
• chi§e asgreat -number of individuals, who were not such an opportunity was allowed to pass away.--
-ejeff accused of any crime.. Much had' been said (Hear!)
'la the eaorsesof this debate of a Paper; which was Mr. BENNET (of Wiltshire) saids he-would not
circulated iii the year 1792, i„ which it was- go at any length into the question then. •It was
Stated, that a certain number of Peers and
.Coms sufficient for him to know that corruption did
• • Metiers nominated a majority, of the Members of exist In the representation ; and, as far• as be
‘t}.lat House ; that paper was, howevers a mere 'knew, that HOuse ought to be the. real represen-
s'ssue olmistakeS. The names of Peers had been tative. of the Commons -of England.---(Hear,
hear !)—The influence of individuals,and of the
.1)111, t down in that list as returning Members to
Peers was too great in that town to allow' it to
• ll'at House, merely because they exercised the -
be a pure representation.. They *Were, therefore
• ~e.gififnate influence 'of their. high lineage.-and
bound to vote for a Committee, -its:Which the
i.`"'•stulguished characters. - It was absurd to say,
state of the representation would be .considered:
• • -I_9r instauce, that the Duke of Devonshire re-
!urned the Member for Derby, because:a Mem-. As- to the plan proposed, many objections might
°el. of the
be taken against it—as to the point of shortens
Illustrious House of, Cavendish was
tingthe duration of Parliament, he• was riot pre
t Representative of that County. lie
pared to decide upon that, and say what should
:ectedhe
listed, that great property, high charaCter, and
a°44ble manners would always maintain their be the exact term of duration ; but hezeould not
--
!la.tural influence in that Housesy He did not Wish see how any man who wished for the purity of
li‘ombers were anxious to address the House on 'ui . t respass upon their time, when so many Ho Parliament could vote against going into a' COM-
Rlittee.—(Hear, hear!)—No man, by giving his
s,
.nis question, but he could not sit down without vote for that Committee, pledged himselfstcsany
„'S
... 7.t-efih- .
g his solemn protest against a measure specific plan.• If -the Hon. Mover had not pre-.
pared a Bill, the charge would have been made
' 'licit went to deprive any man of his fr•anChise
'Ton - which had been often made before, that nothing
~,,.. mere speculative grounds. -.
. .
was referred to the Committee to decide 'upon.
"Lvir• SvitEasaid, he rose to offer a few obser-
If the. entire plan was
,not adopted, he hoped
variousa,, to the Manse on this question, rather from
some parts of it would. It could not be denied
,t.leelifig of the duty which he 'owed to his con- some
a certain corruption did exist with respect
t Ituenfs, than from the hope of throwing any
to the return of Members, and it was not the na-
aesnght npon a subject which had'been so often
hrluso ably discussed.. He concurred entirely in .ture of corruption to stand' still ; but it was said,
that the machine of Parliament worked well—it
th,e motion of his Hon. Friend. He considered
lia,',,,s rl-ptactical question, and one in which they might do so at present, but if the principle was
scot fixed principles to direct them. Ile could unsound, it could not work well long. Those
silt refer to a higher authority, on this: subject who supported Reform, were told that it was ne-
sh4" the opinion of the late Mr.•Bnrke. He said cessary Ministers should have a certain power in
ps4tts the House of Commons- ought to be the ex- that House, for if they lost a. majority, they.must
s ituof the feelings and v. I --of the pee.: Pis . age
doctrine ; for if it was necessary that. Ministers
\stile', Ofear, hear !)—This was not. the sense in
lii " the. lion. Member. for Yorkshire (Mr. S. should always command_a majority, _why were
nsau
osti') interpreted the opinion of that great
the Members on his side of the' House to come
rsn ; he seemed to have read Burke in a diffe-
.
there and lose their time and health, vainly en-
'
' Nn
edition from that which he (Mr. Sykes) had
deavouring to teach Ministers that the acts of
men should be subject to the pure con-
riot for.-his notion. seemed to be this, that the public
gse i- ,
1 of Parliament ---. Ilear• hear ' —He hoped
trout • ( , .)
oot
os of Commons should be the express image
to see the time when the, House of Commons
of th! tile feelings of the people but of the feelings
would once more represent the people, and when.
'Abe
4,e minister of the day.—(Hear, hear !)—lf
seats should not any longer be sold,like cattle
. .isr,sve°Ple were, however, entitled to a real Re-
in the market. He knew that the sale of seats
. -Avassentati
ve Government, the other question
oot whether the people at present were or were was arranged upon a scale of such systematic
stslireally represented ? lie had. no hesitation in corruption, that they brought different prices,
''
the, ng they were not. If any one doubted thii .according to the freedom of voting; and he knew
cot votes in that
recent House ought to produce that if a seat had the• initials DR Y, it brought
' forte co • ' Hd
• nvietion. e appeal, to those votes
only half price.- But whatever the plait for effi-
tile ir"" Proof, of what he advanced, as well as to ciently reforming the representation might be,
the notorious existence of corrupt practices was
Pe etesin the 'case of the Queen. There the
Orli„,
~
this •
petitioned ground enough for going into the Committee.--
tlist ,7 of country almost und.voee
• 'ler
rights Majesty should be restored to all her (Hear,hear!) ,
Captain MABERLY stated, that in giving his
, tosiu 1 a'9."o-- the House decided against them by
support to the motion for a Committee, he might
i•shic;;'tit' nearly-as' large in proportion, as those
he supposed to sanction, in some measure, the
(Ilea agreed to the petitions in the country.
Principles of the Bill ; against that notion he
-against bear !)—The Petitions of the people P
wished to guard himself, objecting, as he did, to
success; extravagant expenditure had no better
the Bill proposed by the Hon. Member; what lie
orbita":7• The demands of Ministers, however ex-
wished now.to offer to' the consideration of the
trial ?lie
net with the ready concurrence of the •
e) and in House, were ,rather some speculations and crude
reduced
bservatioris o Ids own on subject
o ~ . f the of Reform,
cr tiled °o compliance with the universal• prayer
show ?• nation. It was not enough that • there than any comment upon the plans ofothers. He
was, himself, a most moderate Reformer, and
snch'lva be able and wise men in that House ; if
would only support such a Reform. as •was essen-
Presen:re sufficient on that ground alone to re-
tially mild and temperate.--L(Hear, hear I)--It
them s's the people, they might as. svell invite
could not be denied that there were defects in
1-,o___ from foreign countries as look for' them at
114.11e?but they wanted men in that. House who' the. representation ; and it was natural that there
Ills's_ the,. feelings of English Men ; '.there- were should be, for it was now the result of systematic
Ifres . clever •and . ingenious .....men in that: wisdom, but arose in the course of events, and
nust},sr, - but the defect was, that. they were adapted itself to •circumstances, still -carrying
1,,,L,4
er:e_turned by the peoPle. He would with it tli traces of those remote ages from
.lent
wltave a pure. representation .than any ta- which ;t first sprung. The defects he conceived
rnCua
li„ did e 'Corrupt system could introduce. to he these, that several large towns, which, on
,i, not know whether Reform would have' account of their opulence, commercial import-
the effect .
ss , as bad been said, of bringingthat
intoance and populousness, ought to have re re-
51d none b
'441 liar .f" but men who were as wise as serpents sentatiies, were at present unrepresented. In
lime
rn.mhess as doves, but at all events, though, the •march of time, another defect had arisen,
I_nutg t be returned of a different character, Corresponding to that; it was, that' several towns 7
ii:l7,tWa_e.,!l p_refer purity- of councils in .that 'House which had once a degree of opulence and consi-
IvithuouetuistPlay-of, • th,emiost distinguished abilities d_eration, ceased to possess them,' and yet were
He was therefore decidedly of opi- represented: It was his idea that these latter
Ilion that th
..inns_ e Rouse, ought to go into a_Commit- places should be disfranchised, and their fran-
Oefethtef
plan
nh he did not, in every respect, approve chise conveyed to the others which were entitled
burharrt. _proposed by the Hon, '
Member for to it. , This would have the effect of conciliating
... . _
..(Mr. Lainbton.) The viee of that plan the people, who: werenaturally irritated from the
was, that it excl i
electors wit ''
used ed -a certain description of absence of that political power which they had a
ssor
instance
ose interests ought to be represented • right to possess. lie then went on to state the
..
: sit shut out all • reasons on which he intended to proceed, and
uouseholde • • artrzans who were not
8 ft- rs, he did .not entered into an historical statement to skew that
u rage . I) approve of Universal
but li6 th' ° n'an abhorred •
it more than he did, .
there was of old a discretioriary power in the
Elio
Olar • that the •
artisans should have.a Crown to disfranchise boroughs. - \ o less than
e In.the choi
°ear !)_,./,,. .ce of RepresentativeSs--s(Heas 68 boroughs were disfranchised which had rel.-
. • ' 'Lfs ho • • )
)ey ".. ) 4ever, could iiiz • • .lat..intn - 1 be discussed when wily sent Tdembers to Parliament, and seve-
n • • -.,aChineitte •• If • rat boroughs hadSclaimed exemption from return-,
he " opinion Is' 't it
es• - liemight give
would rpect .friplinSing Representatives. As the Crown had that
say that I proposed, .
the first and most efficient plan discretionary power formerly of disfranchising

. .
which did not 'Meet his approbatron WAS that it
did of Ex the mode oielection: ; Ttiia he thought
the most essential part* of • all really beneficial
plans of Reform, 'as it was More an object that
the Representative should be the free, Uninflu-
enced chOice of the people, than that the fran-
chise should be, extended ; and to obtain this free
choice, he thought something like vote •by ballot
ought to be adopted, as that would preserVe
election safe from the froWns of poorer, or the
more debasing and fatal exertion of influence.—
Nothing could, in his opinion, be more fallacious
than the supposition; that if the people enjoyed
a greater share in the act of choosing their repre-
sentatives, they would exclude from the'llouse of
Commons men of intelligence and integrity.--
That was in 'Other words to say, that the people
would willingly and knowingly get rid of what
was conducive to their own '(rood.
Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion. He
always believed that'the word " Reform" meant
nothing but alteration.
Sir GEO. ROBINSON said, he would vote for
the Committee, although lie Could. by no means
agree to all the parts of the plan proposed by the
Ilan. Member for Durham. That 'some Reform
of Parliament was necessary, appeared to him
to haire been abundantly proved during the pre-
sent Session of Parliament, by the way in which
the Petitions of the' peOple had' been treated"" in
that House. It 'was" impossible, indeed, hat the
people could expect redress of their grievances
from a House of CommonS constituted as the pre-
sent was.
Mr. THOMAS WILSON said he could not con-
sent to. go into the Cotnmittee; at the same. time
he should declare that he would be at all times
ready to give his vote for the redress of any spe-
cific grievance which was pointed out. When-
ever .any instance of corruption in any borough
came' before the House, he would be willing to
vote for its disfranchisement. He could not
concur in the principle that a Member of Par-
liament was bound by the opinion of his immediate
Constituents. His duty was to consider net so much
the particular wishes of those who sent him;'as the
general 'Welfare' of the 'whole community.- If
Members were to attend to. the wishes of the
People, why one wish would be; that they should
not pay any taxes.—(Bear !),—and he should be
glad to know how the business of the country
could be carried. on without taxes ? The effect
;of the lion. Member's proposed Bill would be
that the constituents would have entirely too
much tontroul civec their' RepreSentatives. lie
was aware that in -many places at the present
moment,- if a Mernber happened to 'differ from
his'cOnStituents, he Van the. risk of losing his seat.
This,, however, was not the case in the- metro-
polis ; and he could say that in the 'whole course
of his canvas,- he had only in two instances been
questioned as to' what .his-conduct would be in
.
Parliament. In the one Instance he was asked
(add. he did. not expect such' a question from so
intelligent a geritleMan) Whether he would vote
for Catholic Emancipation ? and; upon answering
in, the negative, the gentleman told him he'should
not 'have his vote. In the other instance, he was
asked whether he would "vote for a Reform in
Parliament ? He answered, that that would de-
pend upon the shape in- which 'such a question
was brought forward. The person who asked
the question then said, he would' give him his
support: = In conclUsion, the Hon. Member said
that the per Son who was sent to 'Parliament
should not consider him Self as the Representative
of those alone who sent him) but of the great
body of the people.
The CHANCELLOR of the'EXCHEQUER could.not
consentto'going into a Committee, which should
have. laidliown. to-it as a basis for' its proceedings'
reguiatonss'uch as those alluded to in the speech
of the Hon. Member for Durham; although he
would not let slip this opportunity to pay a tri-
bute to the temper and moderation which that
Hon. Member had displayed in submitting his
plan of Reform to-,the House. That speech, be'
thought, reflected equal credit on the Hon. Mem=
ber, as well :for the industry which he Appeared
to have bestowed on the subject, as for the inge-
nuity .of the arguments by which he had at-'
tempted to support the position, he set out with:
He professed, however, lie should rather consider
it :less, dangerous . to. go' into a Committee of this
nature armed.
,with ",something like a distinct
and detailed plan of practical Reform, than that
such a Committee. should be left to investij
gate all the different visionary. plans 'of Reforrzi
which had,. for a time distracted many
,Within as
well as out of doors. The' plan prOposed "would
go to a complete alteration of the System on which
the House now stood. One Consequence would
be.to Change,' 'in "a' Material degree,' 'the CoUnty
representation; by the -addition of copyholders
and leaseholders. The lion.. Gentleman- (Mr.
Larnbton) who brought forward the trintion, did
not say ivhether his plan included -ill'leasehold--

. .
.boroughs, and exercised -it in so many: instances,
he did not see why the entire Legislatnre WaS
not 'competent to exercise such a power; when
necessary, to rectify the representative system in
conforMity with the spirit of the Constitution.-----
(Hear !)—lle -then stated that he objected to the
whole principle of the Bill ; it started upon a
wrong principle ; by recognising householders as
competent to vote, it made property the basis of
the right.of -voting, and. if property was Made the
basis, the number of votes ought to be increased,
on a scale graduated according. to the. Nalue of
that property, and in proportionas householders
were taxed ; but to make property the basis, and
then proceed on
.a principle of equality, was an
objection not to be overcome. He Could not
agree with those who were of opinion that the
House should-be purely popular ;- he believed it
was necessary to the true support of the State
and the
.Laws, that both the Peers and the Crown
ought to have some influence in that HouSe. He
did not think it should too exactly represent the
Will'of the peOPle. He could refer to historical
facts to shew, that a House of Coinmons, wholly
returned and influenced by the popular will, was
not the best for promoting the prosperity of the
country. The long Parliament was •an example
of this kind ; that Parliament was supported by
. the whole power of the people ; but the check of
influence being removed, it overturned both the
House of Peers and the Throne.—(Hear, hear!)
appealed also for the truth of his positions
to the Parliamentary history in the reign of
Charles the Second ; on the whole, he would
prefer that House to be connected with the Peers
and the Crown, and to be in some measure under
the direction of secret influence, than to be con-
troule-d by the harsh and overbearing
.power of
popular clamour. He had .made - these
.observa-
tions because no other gentleman had offered
what he conceived to be a practicable plan.
Mr. RAAISDEN contended that there was a•ne-
cessity for inquiry ; he was always of this opi-
nion, but he was. more strengthened in it than
ever by what had happened at the close of the
last year and the beginning of the present; he
alluded to the conduct of his Majesty's Minis-
ters relative to the Queen. He never understood
what object they had in lending -themselves to
such an act of oppression.--7-(Hear, hear !)—lle
then adverted to the principle of Reform as con-
tained in the Bill for the Disfranchisement of
-Grampound, which WaS'introduced by his Noble
Friend, the Member for Huntingdonshire=
(Lord John Russell). The principle of that
Bill he conceived, if acted upon, would have led
'to a full and efficient Reform, but,' in the-hands
Of the Hon. Member for Yorkshire, it had been
so mutilated that all its efficacy" was destroyed:
.Though he would vote for a Committee, 'he was
not prepared to go the whole length with the
Hon. Mover in his plan of-Reform. In the prin-
ciple of shortening the duration of Parliament he
agreed with him, provided some plan was de-
vised for diminiShing the expences of election.---
(Hear, hear !)—lf the elective franchise was to
be given to householders, it.should be recollect-
ed how many must be thereby deprived of the
elective franchise. He could not agree in any
prOposition of ,dividing the country into 'districts
for the purpoSes of election, as in a neighbouring
State. His notion of Parliament was, that it
ought to be the people's House, and ought to re-
main so, and that the executive sboUltV have a
Controulibg power any yvhere else than there.-
(Hear, hear!)

Mr.HAniiO Jib was anNious to state the grounds
of his, vote thus early in the debate, because he
was satisfied that nothing but the most command-
ing eloquence would be sufficient to arrest their
attention at a later hour of the evening. He
would not now enter into the details of the, ques=
tion,of Reform, but would give his vote for it on
the ground of necessity ; for, to quote the opi-
nion which had been so frequently referred to,
he was satisfied that, if Reforth did not take
place from within the House; it would from with-
out. Therefore, in.vOting for it, lie thought he
should be doing not only an act of justice, but
also one of necessity. If he were asked what
species of Reform would he wish to have effected,
he would say, that kind which gave to the people
that power of which they were now deprived—
an effective cheek over the enormous expendi-
ture of the public money, and also a check on
those coercive measures which had been carried
to so great an extent by the present Administra-
tion. He did not .speak of one ,Administration
alone, for he would not give his support to any
set of Ministers who' were not substantively
pledged to the question of Parliamentary Re-
form.—(Hear !)—lt might be said that if the
Reform spoken of took place, the House of Com-
mons would swallow up the power of the Lords :
but that was a result which he thought could not
be expected ; for no man could believe the State
to be secure unless the Crown and the Peers had
their just influence in the scale of the -Constitu-
tion: As to the influence exercised by Ministers,
great as it was, he did not think it was so very
extensively exercised as it might be, .considering
the temptations and the means they had ; and lie
thought also. that the House and the country
ought rather to he obliged to them for not hav-
ing carried their influence farther; but what he
wished to see done was, that those temptations
should be removed, from them. In conclusion,
the lion. Member said that he would vote for
going into the Comniittee, without pledging him-
self to any thing more than that the subject
should be duly and seriously considered.
-Mr..RICARDO observed,. that the subject of Re-
form was
. the most important question which could
come hefere'that House, - He was anxious, there-
fore, to declare his opinion with reference to it.
He 'agreed with the Hon.- Member for Durham.
that • it was quite necessary the House of Com-
mons should truly represent the people. It was
not necessary for him to
.have the proof of the
recent votes of the House to be convinced that
the • people were not represented. (Hear !)
From the manner in which that House was con-
stituted, he -was quite certain before of that fact.
He 'would- embrace any plan which was likely to
give the country an ,efficient representation. lie
was about to 'deliver a sentiment, which he knew
would -not meet with general approbation there.
The only part of the Honourable Mover's plan ,

ers, or thoie only whose leases were fOr life.
A leasseholder for a small term of years, 'even for
twenty-one, did not stand on the same footing of
independence as a leaseholder for life. 'There

---- -
were other parts of the Bill which werit to' over'.

turn' every existing' right, by extending suffrage
too widely.- ;The distinction, was. hardly per-
ceptible between llttn•ersal Suffrage. and the-
right of every householder to vote at elections:'
Independent of objections to,. the. general prin-
ciple, there 'were many points in the Ilia that•
did not.meet the approbationipven of those Gen-.
tletneu who maintained, generally, that. sonde.'
Reform was necessary. It was' taken for granted,
.that the,.great body of the people were anxious
for some change in the present system of repre-
sentation. Ile saw. no evidence'ef Such a' wish.
It was true, that in a number of Petitions it was
mentioned incidentally. He did' not mean the
slightest disrespect to those Petitions, but it
should be observed that 'they all alluded to some
specific grievance, which the Petitioners thOught
could be redressed by *a. Retorm in 'Parlia-
ment. , Some complained of 'taxation, some of
agricultural, and others'of commercial distress.

It was impossible that the grievances complained
of could be all removed by the 'same remedY.
If.those who petitioned on grounds distinct from
reform, could' be s'iliarattrd 'from' 'the friends of.
the propoition of the Hon.-Mover, the number
of the latter would be found very inconsiderable.

The Petitions arose partly from artificial! excite-
ment,' Many- from unreal 'grievance-sr and some
from a party who desired Reform,but constituted
only .a small proportion of the population:• To
say that the House of Commons did not exPress
the popular feeling was an . assertion totally
void of foundation. It was happily so consti-
tuted as not to fluctuate immediately with .every
sudden change of popular opinion ; but the
public feeling, deliberately expressed, was always
found irresistable .in that House. . There . was
no instance in which; when so expressed,. .it
was not successful: The abolition of the Slave
Trade, When first proposed, was not agreeable to.
a Majority of- that House: The. voice of the
people; however; having been deliberately ex-
pressed, and enforced by argument, at last pre-
vailed. The same might be said otvarions other
measures that were not at first agreeable to a
jority of that House. There were instances also
where Parliament swayed what for a time might
have seemed to be public opinion, and by so
doing rendered very important services 'to' the
country. It should be recollected that popular
feeling was powerfully influenced by the publiC
press, in which, it could not bedenied, that much
talent was 'frequently displayed ;. • that many
questions were ably treated, .bdt still there. was
so much misrepresentation and falsehood,-that it
was very doubtful whether public opinion solortn-
ed could be often correct.A pother argument offered
in support of Reform was the influence of the
Crown.-He would not now pretend to say
,whether,
when a resolution was agreed to, that the influence
of the Crown had increased, and was increasing,
that resolution was correct, or not; but whatever
inight have been then theinfluence of the Crown,
it was now counteracted by such strong checks
as lessened it very considerably. The publica-
tion of what took place in that House, the free-
dom with which the deliberations of Parliament
were commented 'on by 'the public pressi the ex-
pression at public rneetings.of 'popular feeling,
wee • counteracting causes -which greatly out-
-weighed any addition of-influence the Crown de-
rived from the increase of . establishments. So
great-was the influence of the; public press, and
the freedom with which it discussed and com-
mented on passing events, that foreigners. unac-
quainted with the degree of liberty enjoyed in .
this country, frequently thought we were- on the
eve of a revolution. Such were the circumstances
which, while. they existed, must always render
hopeless any attempt On the liberties of, the
people. The country never: enjoyed a greater
degree of rational freedom .than under the. Par-.
liament.as now constituted ; and they could not
better provide for the .prosperity.and ;liberty of
those who were to come after them, than by pre-
serving•inviolate that constitution of. Parliament.
*under which the country had so long flourished.
These being his opinions on the principle of the.
Bill, and • various'- parts.of the proposed pian,not,
having met the approbation even of
,those Gen.
tlernen who were in the habit of expressing them-
selves friendly to Reform, he should therefore
oppose the motion. •
The cry of Qizestion rbeing pretty general, the
gallery was•ordered to be cleared for a division.
CANNING,SiIid) thatas most of those Gen-
tlemen were absent' who usually took a leading'
part in the debates of that House ; as the Hon.
Gentleman also who brought forward the motion
(Mr. Larnbton) was not .in his place, he should
not, under those circumstances, oppose what ap-
peared to be the wish -of the 'House; by 7oGring
any observations on' the subject.—The -House
then divided— ••
Ayes - - - - 43.
Noes

-12

Majority against the motion
SPOILED .STAMPS.
. .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the Day for tbe further consideration of thell,eport of
the Spoiled Stamps' Bill.L—After a few words from Lord Mil-
ton, the Chancellor of the Exehequet,' the Solicitor-ffenera,
Mr. (Irenfell, Mr. Hume, Mr. Wilson, and Mt. •Ellite, the
Report was ordered to bkt taken into further considetation on
Monday se'nnight. •- . .
The Report of the Church Briefs' Bill was brought up, and
ordered to be taken into. further consideration on Monday
-se'nnight. • •

HEREDITARY REVENUE OF SCOTLAND. •
' The Order of the day being moved for the se'-
' cond reading of the, Hereditary Revenue of Scot.
land Bill, Lord A.THAat.im-ox,was proce-eding to
make some observations on the Bill, when Mr.
LAMBTON, whd had ,been- absent during the .divi-
sion on his own motion, entered the House, and
a laugh was-heard from Some Members as 'the.
Hon-Gentleman was passing on to his seat.
Mr.LAMBTON said, that on entering the House,'
he heard -a laugh, and from the countenance of
some Hon.•Gentlernen,' who"-took a part ire it,.he
was led to suppose that the laugh was directed at
him. He wished that any of those Hon/ntle-
men would 'stand up and. avow' that such- as -the
case. Some of those to.whom he alltded:,would
doubtless have the manliness :to clo.So, if they felt
conscious that the imputation:was-well founded.
The SetAxEn said,' the House must- feel that
its own dignity-.would be best consulted; :and
most effectually secured, by taking care that no
Member should meet with. any. treatment, incon-
sistent. with the rules of order and decorum.-
-Whether the offence was. 'conveyed in language
or by any other mode, it was .the duty ,of the
House at once to put it down.. . But ,as the Hon.
Member himself, expressed come, doubt, he ,would
submit to him -whether the circus statice was such
as could be 'preferred as. a charge, and Whether
it might not be fairly presumed-that nothing im-
proper, was intended ?t ,
Mr 4 LAMETON sairi,, he. had retired , from,,the
House for an hour for the purpose of taking some
refreshment.‘• Not having, taken any during . the
whole of the• preceding night, tw thought
he was justified in doing _so. Onnhis return,
the Member. for Middlesex-,. (Mr. 'Whitbread),
informed him . of- the.., unexpected; circum-
stance that a ditision had ..taken. place. 'When
he- entered the House, ,he: heard a. laugh, and saw
the faces of some Hon. Gentlemen: Who took part
in it.directed towards.hiw, as:if to imply that he
was to blame for the. sudden conclusion to .which
the -question had- been .brought.- '.-.The Member
for Chichester ,(Mr: Huskisson) was, one7nf the
Hon. Gentlemen to,whom. he .alluded, and also
the Member: for Londonderry (Sir G. Hill). on.
whose countenance he observed' the. same exprcs.
sion.—(Cries of ." Chair, chair !)—Mr. Larnbton