The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-09 00:00:00

did pot,howeVer, think that the proposal was asifavMir-7
able to the public creditor as had been generally ex-
pected. He did not mean to Eay that -the present plan
might not be carried out; he hoped'it might, but there
would be great difficulties in working it. He would
ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how-he proposed to levy
the income-tax on annuities:for ten years, and on per-
manent annuities? . -
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, of
course theincome•tax would be levied on all species of
incomes. He could not sit down without expressing his '
thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman ,opposite, the late
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in particular, and to. Hon.
Members opposite' for the very kind manner in which
thethitd received his proposition. They had laid aside
party warfare, .which was at times essential to the inte-
reits-litthe country, but the absence of. it on a matter
Ike this- Must have. .a - very beneficial effect in.enlisting
public confidence in- favour of the arrangements, and be
naateriailY conducive•to the public welfare.
iMr.Bri-RWITT inquired if there were any-contract
between the'Bittak of -England, and the Government,' to
the effect that the Bank 'should pay off the dissentients.
The -CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Cer-
tainIy net—The.resolutions were then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
a resolution embodying the provisions of former/tuts' of
Parliamint for paying off the dissentients:--Agreed to.
The egAIEMAN then reported progress, and the- House
resumed., .
• GRIEVANCES :OF `.PEOPLE.
On the question that the .1-I()use itself into
a Committees of Supply, •
_ - •.

_ .
1
i.h-tit by their exertions in the year. 1842-4 y their allewing, all
,persons.
.a limited.ttime . to, expreSs their
energy, foresight, and 'determinatiOn-they had been dissent fro 6 the terms offered:. With:respect to that
able to place the revenue.of the country on a footing to brand:l.'6f the stocks which was created- 1814, I shall
Meet the exigencies of. the service. They had now got prbeeed 'as. has been always .eustomary; and I shall call
a revenue more .than equal. to their expenditere, and on the. House to resolve, that the holders shall be paid
they were thereby enabled tOl•eap the 'advantage's which off. The periods which I propose to fix upon are-
a firm. adherence to aprinciple ofthat nature was ever sure the 23d of *Maieh, fir ihoie in England ; the 22d of Oc-
to giVer,•ind thiii realise to the country the benefit not tober, for those in, Europe -; and the Ist of February,
merely of a temporary reduction of 'a few taxes, but of 1845,-fOr'iliase out of Europe. :Under this arrangement
the permanent obligations of the. State. He had said -if I' should' succeed in carrying it into effect-the im-
that the income of the present year was more than suffi-‘ mediate .saving; to the public,. from- the 10th of October
dent to meet the Charges of that year. So far as thetWo wi11'be,..025,000/. a year-and in the year 1,84, When
last quarters were concerned the excellent ,state of the re- the second. reduction will take place, there ,wlll he a
venuewas shown hydoctiments already on the table of the saving 0f...625,000Z. more. This gain will be effected: without
House.. 'The..Miise would find by the papers thathad been any disturbance of the public credit-without any,limita-
laid before it; that, at the commencement of the last year the tion of the capital '-of • the country-1-or any embarrais-
balance in the ,hands of the Governinent was 1,400,0001, ments of commercial dealings: 'The relief to-the country
While,.. at 'th9., terminationof..`it,.. it was - upwards of will be more certain than could.he obtained ,by any at;
4,700,000L-(Hear,: hear.) lam happy (continued the tempt to gritSp.at'lminediate advantages, by throWing a
Right. Honourable Gentle Man) •to inform the House portion' of 'the • PubliC tUrderit upoii"the public 'creditor.
also ' that, speaking 'at the present moment, I. can I trust that-I,haveclearly . explained the .principles en
state to, them . that there are no deficiency bills which • x-, intend. to.. tiCt. . There, is, . however,.. another
of theliankunsa4istied, . We, are free at this quarter important point connected with this arrangement, which
from repaying those advancei made by the Aank for the I think: tit ' nectssarrto explain` to the House. It 'is
purpose-of meeting.the demands for the public service., well-known. to those who 'have paid attention to the
I. can,alsn state that,. since the sth April last, it has not finances Of, the country,' 'that hitherto considerable in •
been necessary to apply to the Bank for advances in an.. convenience has' been occasioned' in• respect to currency_
ticipation of the votes of the House of Commons. So far and credit on Account, of the,great inequality in the pay-
is these things are concerned, however useful they may be molts' Of 'tile interest ofthe , debts in'ditferent quarters of
in themselves„'yet they are calculated to cripple the the year. At the present moment the '.amount of the
Government. I can assure the Bonse that from those debt on which' the interest is required. to be paid in the.
eneheihranceswe are at the present moment free. I qUartera andu; ig...Jantiary and :filly, •is 534,000,0004,
will :also,. point the attention ,of the House
,to this whereas the amount•of debt on which the • interest is
fact,' that i , the amount ,of the , _ untended
_debt paittinf'Apiiirand October is' 216,000;000/.. - This in-.
at this . - moment :is --- less, •than •it 'has ' been equality necessarily prodtieed'great fluctuations in the
for many _ ,antecedent years ; • that: the . amount monetary affairs of the teuntry.' 'I therefore think it
of Exchequer-bills is only, between eighteen and nine- ~ my duty to•take the oppbrttinity of eqtialiaing the • pay-
teen millions--..-that they bear an interest of 2145,:percept. • men tof the, dividends, so. that ,en each occasion the srek-
and that,. at-the present moment, they bear a premium marid'for money may be. about the 'Same amount.' And
.of 73e,..• • LoOking, therefore; at the growing wealth of this for this reason I prope.ae that the' diVidenda'. en, . all the ,
country, looking at --its. capital.- considering...its vast new.itock.shall•be paid; 911 V in April.
,and in October.
resources, looking at, the -contimiance of its: friend- Those who Intie hitherto been paid.up- to October. will
ly relations with tOreignPowers, considering thatthe re- have:their half-year to receive in,-October next... Those.
venue-has recovered from the temporary difficulty.under . who have, usually. -. been. paid 'in . January will have
which it laboured-considering, that we are free from only, Z.rie,:quarter in October ; so' that. 'all • the new.
unfunded . and, floating debt, I think' that I debt 'Mak ttart• from th6.loth of • October next: 'After-
have made out a case to this 'House, to show, that the warnsthere *ill' be two equal divisions. of payment;time has arrived when those who have the management which, in inyenlition, Will_ tend materially to the aavai-
a the financial affairs of the country should make an tage and inter.'est of the telintry.-(lleir, hear.) I know
attempt- to redtfee' the interest on the..national debt . not that it. ,istieceSsarY•ter •me to say any more: .If it
The debt we have to deal with on this occasion amounts be my happiness to carry '.this. measure.: successfully
;tonearly,2so,ooo,oool:. and consists of four-sevetalkinds througho.it'will be one of .the most gratifying circutn-
`of'stock. . The first is the.:Three-and-a-Half per Cent. -stances in.my.life.to be able to reflect that,. on tWo.seve-
.Stock, origimillyereated in 1818, which is the foundation ral occasions-in th. eyear_lB3o and in the present year
of stip&'
.of this. description and amounts to' .10,000,000/.. -I ' reednimeniled'OTarliainent a Measure 'with respect
The next ;is '.the . Reduced Three-and-a-Half per Cents., toa reiltictienin:chirtinintal burdens, 'which 'cannot but
being • a stock which was first established 'in the year . meet with the approbation .4. the country it is so well
1760; • originally as a. Four per. Cents_ .Stock, added to - calculated to'hetiefit and tcl'telieve. "'But however great
[at various periods, and reduced to Three-and-a-Half my "gratifieatiOn'thi this ground; there is Still, a 'higher
per .Cent.: in 1824, when Lord Ripon was Chancellor of gratification which I feel„ heth .aarn. -sinister and an
the .Exchequer. -It amounted to 67,500,0001. The next is Englishinan, ' that this, measure . affords :. an , irre-.
the Three-and-a-Half .per Cents. originally.' funded fragible '.. proof of the resources" ,ef :this_coati:-
in 1784, at .5 per cent., and which. has,. in the gradual try; • :'.; And ,-- that, with - reference . to . 'other, Loom
progress of. the country, the 'growth of capital, and tries, it shows the mighty advantages which ever
confidence. in our. own resources, undergone .two attend ,it- littered' regaid"tn"- the ''Obligatinns of , national
sevetaL reductions-one._ in 1822,-; -When • Mr.- Van- honour and' -gotillfaith:-:-(LetitTeliebri:) -lire have
sittart was Chaneellor •of . the' Exchequer,. ' from in one time.to struggle with) great difficulties-we .have
five- per cent to four ; and - the other in 1830, when hactniatilr ardtlOVS:ColiteStS, many bitter reverses to,con-.
I had the- honour of holding the office .I now fill, and .tena'against-difficulties.WhiehlitiVe made the strongest
when it was. further reduced 'to •Three;ind-a-Half, per minds to.. quail-but) we,have ostereeme.. andtriumPhed
Cent., at which •it •has ,ever. -since' remained- ':- The-lest over them All,:and )that.lbY a 611110% 'but', sacred,- iallie-
StOckiw the one. called• the Old Three-and-a,Half - per ' rence to the principles of national honbur and the nbli-
Cents., which was an Irish Stock. created in'l7:37, and had gatiots of phblic faith:.;•(HeTrir.).-:,.nfm-^, !' ."" :•, . •
been from • .time to time augmented to the sum of .. '3l-i.,llLEWlTTltheir,rese•46 aildreis,:the House,but
14,600;000C ; :the whole amount of 'these' stocks is- was met with lned cries of " Order, order.").
249,600,000/4' 'or; in round numbers, nearly the amount Mr. OittERS-,'thethaiimaii- of .thireinnitttee-cif Sup-
lat • first Stated. Notv it might, certainly, have been ply,--then` ree,d-the resliltittont from the' table. -'• " •
legally correettO-have dealt separately with these •sepa- Mr. V. BAll.ING• said it , gave hirli, much pleasure to
rate, branches of the'Threesand-A-Hilf per -Cent. Stock ; be able .to- state that he had heard-.the proposition. Of• the
but-I conceived thatthis•couise, though' legally correct, -Hon; Gentleman with the greatest satisfactiOn.-,--(llear,
would be essentially unjust. I thought itsvould not be be= hear.) He should be very; ;sorry' ya any difference of
coming in a great.emintry .tke_this totake! Advantage of opinion prevented him frOm.expressinghis..approva). of a
one or -two partieular branches of stock being -of ' sniall ' plan-lailk-adrantageoui.to.the country.,.-He spoke only' of
amount, and' to call on the proprietors wh6 have invested. the :principle of the plan -;.- whether the terms were.' ade-
theit money •in these funds to 'submit 40'a re- quate tobarrying , out that principle -remained' betwiten
duction,- which.;! -from their .!being small lin. num- the holder ef-the"sfOck-and- the Right 'Hon. Gentlenran•
ber, they eould not resist.:: I- have, 'therefore, WitierespeCtlo the' plan itself, he thought it wad' dne
recommended that'the same rule should be applied to all) beneficial' in' Many 'respects:- (Heir; . hear.) First,. it
these stocks, and thit thereduetion-of interest shall
,he -I hartliis 'great advantage; that it' did:rietereafeany ad-
made at . ' once 1, upon--,' the .': whole of "them. dition to the:debt.; that was in itself' a verygreat id-.
With 'respect to 'these' stocks; there -is I some dif- . vaninge; He thought` also; a very :honest. plan. for
fermice- -• in '
fi. the .:circumstances' -in - Which . they , a Chancellor. of the Vicuhectiter.to propose..4-4eheers and:
stand;'7 ',Three 'of 'thein are absolutely at the disposal of laughter.) The Right Hon.., -Gentleman, might: have
Parliainent, to deal wit
h_... ai'-ib.ttbil*s fit;' but one-of ' made the reduction of the-iuterest'iminediate ; and this
,•I:hern, the Three-find-a-Half Or Cents'. of 1818, ' stands .advantage7stiti-Incsligelit one to a Chanceller,Of'-:the EX-
in a different situation. :When that 'etOck was created,' Chefitter.---(Oheelle.-)-T"There Was alsel'another adVati-
the holcierireeeive&atiehnrity that their interest should tageiislar WS privide indiVidUals ieereConeerned ihe be-
fibe pnid theintill'isgs; that the.T,shOuld'ltaie Six Months' • lieved •the interest was to be 'reduced ' one -uarter
notice, fore. 'any redaction' redactiOn-Ofinteres4ST redemption of Per ient.,--at::oncle;: 'with *-'probability --"OT a reduction
stook tOnkAilnee-„ IA thirdly thifiliey"'sthotild not be of one quarter"perktentlmore at a future time ;. they
paid .off 'in sum "Of Tess than t)i`s,oo/. :it a time. thus reduced: the' ineomeS..-eit 'private individuals in the
.In anyairialgenient' Which may be entered. into, lam least - incenteillent.-Way possible.
:On) another tMpg he
sure that the ITtimie will go along with 'me _when. I- de- could net help expressing the' 'utrno4f. Satisfaction,;7 the
dare, 'that ' we' ; onglif'to 'adhere to' every - 'engage- plan WOUl4o:onfy be an advantage 4 Ourselves, , but
meat' • - into' Which we' hate; enterea;. • and- to ' give would giin * others -a, practiced- lesson' that honesty. and
to -the- ' holdeti'' -cif "that -'stock ' every.- advantage' good faitb; etealindertthegreatest.difficulties,had!their
tol Which they lire entitled under-the- provisibnief the pecuniaty.adviantagesr its Well as the benefit to be derived
stattip..-(Cheera.) 'We :are. bound -to adhere to the from opinion-rot 'the -world atlarge;-(Cheers.)
strict letter. of our agreernent',with-.. thent:.;-(Cheees.)- He 'could-onirtaye;-- id, sitting 'down that he wished the
If'we':lbok - for precedents- as- to' he 'manner in Which most hearty"Suecese. to. the' Right':
' lion. Gentleman's
Oda"conversion :inv.:be bieught . about, - we shall : scheine.,!-(lieid•theerSy'particularlY-from the Ministe-
'findthat. Eti. 'Varitinlis. times- different plans have. been rialsbenclieoo'--n ~5 . ',
-.- ' ..
.•.', !
adopted- AU:tiler - eirctire-stanees. In' Cu"nic' cases Sir ‘JOIIIR.,#AV:REID said qiething had ever given
advantages' hayb been.' "given to 'the' holders :of • the, hini„i#eater44.e.itieire than the• planner in which' this
higher 'stock, in-order to-Induce-them- to ' accept of -an question had been received. He thanked the Right
amount in the lower stock in the place of that which they Hon. Gentleman opposite -for. the -liberal And handsome
held in the higher. -. .These advantages have been 'or a • maKtneXJ irrwhich ,he had:spoken. Aletfelt ithat feeling
different nature. In •561.116 cases 'a would lie:
pecuniary -beaus has-
beien proposed tothe holders of the higher stock, thus.. the IfOldert'of Threetatid-it Half per Cent Stock would
.
augrnenting the . actual ainount of the -debt. while 'it 'general in that-House, land he' war sure that
'
be •highly • jgratified(Cheers. and''.laitgliter)-'.-at the
'diminished the interest of it. . In ether 'cages an en- manner• in which the phuih--sid 1;'04 PrOPOseB.. Under
gagement has' been entered into with the -holders of the -all the,:dttairnstaii9es,:4o, th;otight: it Was,MoSt liberal, and
higher stock, that no further reduction of interest should, he had'o6-hPSit,atiOi,',ln,stating his• firm belief-that it
take'place until after a given time.' The HOUse must be 'would- e.almosePCt.. Y 4.l4d,PuPrelY, apeeptable. .lle
aware' that many,Plans have been proposed in. the differ- had;riepe) accused on :* former occasion of having been
.ant organs Of puhlie oplieien, forthepurpOie,Of effecting. too .sanguine..-.(A laugh.) .. A 'late. Chancellor. of the'
:r. the,rednetien.WhiclalnO*.prepeee to. aceeinplish,.. and E2,cchequoritchowasalow a Member of another House,had
' each of' the;sP;,gana' has its peeuliar..advantagei and - itemised' hint. bf,:having!matle, vise: of a,. metaphor.-(A
'advantagei,; The House will agree With 141-hi:mover, - ' laugh.)- •Ilei(gir J. H. ,Iteld) ,had, stated that the dis.-
.thialfg..in being; of PPinion *that all these, -plana.reselVe tresiewits:Mereiy n iSsing cloud.-(1t-) 'lle now
lhefesAlvea 'IA> throe eaSes, which are open:for onradOp- sawlielbiis, the a• riglitiiir, and he hoPed they would
i
Lion. The. fiiStease is to give to every hOlder'ef Three-. ',soda,' **lived eatletindlauglifet.)*And.-,ita lea
elf
' liticCit=HalT-pei,'‘Ceht.. Stock an :equar.iitineunt ,in the enee'vvti, . d.-:l4e telt;:7/-COntinued laughter)-...:;and ' they
- Three per-Cent.,Stock, itis lading to the capital, of the wont-irk' 'heroic 'lt.Willi.jarbiperiti And snecess.-(Roars
debt:. The;Seeond.Plan is. to..creats ..a . TWO.arid- a-HUH of langEter,),,, -:- ' ',:`' .1' •!, ic!",i ."' !,..... • • . .
per Ceiit stockfor the holders' of everY.'loo/. Three-and- , Mx. P.. -14.... STklir...kßTriiiiiiught •thdt the. Chancellor
a-Ilalf pei, Cent Btock; and giVe them. Sueli4tit. amount of theißtelußnier had:exerciSed.a..every'aotincl. judgment
'of . the-Two-'antl4:Xilf Pee' Cents ,Stnek„ as 'would, give , in proposing.' the: plan :whiele 'l4 ihdlisubmitted to the'
them' aninerease'or - per ,rcpt!.txPon :the capi4l they /- liouSet-:''.'lle'llidcalsci 'shown no incohsiderable,perti4ref
have -already, invested in the Three aufl7a.fltalf per :.Cents,.l Self,4lenit& iThd pr6ierif holders Of itoble kW beetcsnb-
The.thiraplan, is,. to :reditc.e, tli-,T'llree7.and-,,.a-galfiper,• jetted to a less reduction than they svoUlfeftipie b99'n
Cents. "t 6 --Three-and=it:Qtiarter Per,(ents. ',The; Object subjected to uncles tiliii,i)tgi.!4aQiiie; ,i'filFit-2.*J, c1...110Ye
otall these plans being.. to.' effect a reductieiket the in- been !piols4;sedi' '''T.iiir'e 7414 'lol.o'_priiotr bf the `gta(entent
terest,att.pr_ went ;pnyahle pa... thu debt , from :Siker cent. ' of the Alight llen.',soelitleffilAbl; ViVeiVki, agaiittWhieh
te3.pertegut,, 44 Is, gripossible,to,deny but that each of he ''Thu 'hifft4',_._,'lll.7'..",titrroiPiii.".,' The . -Right -21-Inii:
these .plans, has,.ita peculiar advAntage; and,.po,dopht ‘2,,rieh GentletWir'r)l4" -idNd.cd. . to. , An:, manner, tin 'which
plan viii! 'fi.nil its advocates; but -I think, 'before X tho-rOtii-
.tr.,":,C-ente. „.W,ii:;:iwketk,.,..rean•cea-, by Lord
s tate ftkelilan ~whiclu iikr,Opose -that the liousie..:_lhouldi Ripc.A.,ftt,•_
.it ,t,.inie , tliat;,7lo.2.3tas ,httneellor i Of. the
adoPtri jti,pronld •be well. that, I' should : lay ;down .Exehequerib „Thellight llon.:Gentlemanr'shotild: reeol-
' the principles which I.- have adopted-, .in, • review- feet the statements which had been made by. Lord Ripon
ing thejeyeraL plans. to., .which ~I: _ have' . alluded, .1 on .`that Oceuibii,,dnd whiell.lrad Pidetired for ' filth- the
I think it my duty, as tiw.egft4ls QF .the-,publio ;debtor, l. name of " yres-potity .1-tobiripc/P:7, lie 'hoped the ;Eight
to, secure the public eredity,ith; the gmatout,posAihle:ad_ llon7;Grentl46J6i- would ,he't. 'be' misted by 'appearanCes.
vantages, consistent with-a-due,regard-for the interests No data th'Wivat g sgiqiitlleat of money lathe:Market,
o the Statn, l' My. first:duty iffy to the public; Whoeh ser- and in consequence of its_pienty,___the Rii,,,lit Ilen'O en-
IcaPtj.lMniiink.l feel that it iiverfittly,:possiblettolgeon % tleman had been able to•make his, present arrangements,
copeue that duty With the regard that is due to the:in- nbus,-that arose. front the valueless state pf money in this
thre.44:9f-indkvidualsq. who:lend • theirinioney.- ,Ir do not . country, at PiPe4t, : 7 Trade in general ;was in a state of
think it would be just,ln purchase great advantages at the
.the_,g,reateat. „Ategaats6a.; : and hence the rush of
exppn se of burdeeing .7thcise who will come after us: With: unemployed money to. :the public.,. funds, which
respect to debts incurred liV time aal.!war, it.is perfectly. had raised the_.price_...and......enabled-tha Honour-
Jair_and legitimate that-posterity 'should bear a Share of: aide Gentleman to propose his present plan; but he
those burdens by which .the - empire was- extended-oi-it& :warned:Om Right Ifou:',Gentletnin against-believing that
::
;9: .stence preservedGOlMititn 'ffieur,an additional debt in the :eentutiry4o4 in a:-: prosperous state; : A revival of
.ti p..,nlpeacei'.-.Ancl.to!throW: that burden on thbse .'w.hia7 trade was:Much- needed,• and the present stiperabund-
le
co afier:.us; _Wahl a viers that.: weiiniapobtain, great ,ante- uf money was-no, alp of prosperity.
.1Ie• highly
present advantages, for the purpose of relieving otirselees;. ,approved of the proposal of the 'Chancellor of the Ex-
. is a coursPwhichl need not say .r-reprobate, because; I- chequer, as he considered' it would not: only conduce to
em sure hattust he universally disagreeable, to all who the profit of, the country,. ,but' that by its. adoption. the
:consult the true interests3=oUthe ' email' . But Sir, I character. and credit of the country, which were still more
have Co" call upim•thellnuse to 4tdope I a course' which, I valuable; would be materially strengthened.-(Cheers.)
, trust, Lwill be "able to satisfy them-' of the propriety. of Sir-J:. . expressed his: admiration •of the
.pnrsuing...'lt Must- .: be ObviouS toi.the Honsethat•if the plan which had been proposed to the House.. A more
Three-aridat-pidtper
_Cents,were. reduced' O 'Three, per just, a More. simple, or.a ...more certain! plan, 'could not
Cents., by giving an amount of Consols, it would be ne- have heeh devised.-L.(llear, hear.)• Whether he regarded
ceisarfintheoperaticin to do. what was: done- in 10?-L.L. the justieecir.the p/an,in reference to the money market,.
to give aibonus on ther.Three per Cents., for the pnrpose, its simplicity, as being . divested of - all
.kinds of coin-
.of insuring operation.. - Considering the present price_ if pleicity,
.or the Certainty of its meeting, with genera" ac-
the Funds, and the necessity of endeavouring tO•secure a . ceptanee in the.conntry, he thought. the plan equally en-
conversion, the country would be obligedtostibteit to ad-- titled tp.aarniratiOn.-.(Cliecrs.) This 'was one or, those'
ditionideapitallet froni.i0;000,000/.' to 12,000;004 Of debt, - occasions On: which. party feeling should subside--:( Hear,
Alibuglithe immediAte -reaultilvekild: be a saving to the pub ..% hear)-and. he-,congratulated the House and the Right
lie of between 80.9,0399/. and 900,090/. On'the principle Hen: Gentleman on the general' concurrence which the
.laid down of saving' are ereiret justified-bkaidding-to the' meastirownselikely to•reeeive. ••••- • , ' . -•' . • - -
.mass oldebt;though:theireteediateresult ef the saving to • Mr. W:"WIY,LIAMS-felt great pleasure' in eXpressing
the public would be hetween'soompt, and 90.0,600 i: - Foi -his unqualified Apprebatien of the planwhich ,had'. just
however at the presentinoment some; gentlemenTaight_ been submitted to' the' Heuse.-1-(Laughter and cheers.)
'. think its matter of 2indifferiee to what amount par:delif . lle thoiight the plan. was liberal, in the ,present state .of
WAS extended, being, as it wars,! 700,9.01:40.404,*-yet- still -the•mouey, iniirket,,.to thp holders :of Three-arli-alf
,t.
,aliied,,fui;hii,reciofnud,oltwioeti:r,e.Of,e4,
..:i,fttloig'iet.outnitnij. Pihoeld 'be lOolted to; per *Cents, 14 refanttedthat.the Right Ilon. Gentleman
WarS";the debt Whi had not proposed to •L redueecAhe interest on Exchequer
Nivlt.:3l:l7 recklessly contracted • rnie.ht 'becoMe a ruinous Bills . tolfeb instead.' of 14(L...-per day. There had been
~ . ,
and. detrimental to , the best. interests'.of the', otnerperiods" of 'abundance of money which were as
country sir, sir, the other plan Tethiln' 63-110 • -cuniidered; ' transitory as lie lfeire4 -this was' likely be. • Prices
I'whhrioctltigiislt.h,theoirn.v:rechidesinti7tic_,,otiifie.a 11' iredland,a-Ilalf per. Cents. would-soon rise,' the exchanges would turn against us,
willcin the:firstins-iiren • that
.aritingement‘ -undeeibtedly'• .
T.hree:iink.ii-Qiiarter per Cent. 'and the "itatPOrthingS-would. he reversed. . •
Stock,.
that is. Mr. A 1 dern) au TI1O)IrSON believed that the unusual
to the public; but, but va.
againste, be a' ditninistud'aiiinint savine. .abutidanee of money Wag ;oecasienedhy the: distrust of
there :wig be no TiMrease- Of ' • 't,?b„secet.the fast-the, ilie:J3:4l;B4,.Pnlelie.in'ibreign securitieN .epevially North.
moreover; this adilitienal adt;teiLt4e '''''e'f4'o'l-e.,,Wile, 134;';
menti shalt pent:lose' totheliiiiihe-jil:irtiet l'i American. He expressed his grateful acknowledgments
ichc arrange-.:. „io the_Government, - f pile . alterations. introduced by
further ifedtkitien which Will git,eitauft•ir 214P„.._futurb -the Chatieeltur-or .the Exchequer, 44,-.hethough,i, the
ad vantfigd, hi-point . of:annual hie° ' ':..-2,1111,-acTeased • holdersof pr'AO-and-a1.114 per cents. would :bp: much
vantage So Mtn+ =the more ralittabgt:ei.tit-leeftos9tig4ha(li-t. biteitgt4tltleonaT ass °they .. had; anticipated. -f He thought the
,pountry fill 3 receive the flti'
may net be brolight so' apply' s 6 inithedia at
ePy 't: to
'the .... Hon.: had exercised a sound discretion
•iiiii‘lducing the Three-and-a-Half per Cents.oue-fourth:
seurces of the country, .the-
value of the whole .reduction, without Any ebnittervailing-' , t thv...IIAAVES felt happy in expressing his satisfaction
disitilientage: The plan; therefor.e, Whichl,sliall ri'ro--- ,at
e, proposition .of the Government. -With regard to
.inatqer atibrii of the dividends, which were so inti-
pose to the .I.lnlJSeWill be-. tins :e.-" Thai era; it favlei.4); 4. coacted with the
.fin.atieial affair's of this coun-
. Three-and -a-mdf per .Cent:' Stock shall receive. et litre- try,,t. e,_. thought the arrangement was one 'of, great
amouitrii.e.' Three4iid-a-Qiatrfe;:. per Cent. Stok,cyn' nditelijp_rac ico.,iinportinee. • Ile tipped the Right, Hon. Qen-
iiiteist et• the' rate of" th,r,fif-Ond-61-79 mClitg:rPir4el;l4l.Pefr . tlenian fully appreciated! the absence .:of anything.- like
annum. .!halt be paid 'nntd - the •10th 0 f ,C1#41144.1 18,5' .1.. il party feeling on that side of the House • When the. Go-
-1 shall furitshse.4;i• pbtropt'' pe,
,r‘
giving ten years during athich.. the three-Aiid-n.igearter. i. vernment - introduced .measures of sound, . practical
per cent. will 6 payable Upon, 'the; stockip westion, ,titility,.....they •• might depend - upon it, that Hon. Gen-
- y three "That and aft4i- tliftdialf VA itlernen On hi side of the House would give them their
October,
.4,i0 , :ntit.terest lo
.be tc 1 „ shah .beat tkrfite,; 'entire'stippert
.11.e,:(Mr.: Hawcs), would on certain
'':so b4ing"at'tlib;rit--te'-ef°7.' Y''' u•
1.11444 .-this.,,,,,tochx.; , geestiesis.avew.linuself and act as a party man; but when
ranteed ap 'Ai' ,_ . three: per cent., ` sliall 1,4l,4 ("kat- . any great:pine .raeasure was introdSeed, party eonsi-
can - "2/ flu 'her reduction for. .twenty '
,leers', deratiOns: must :at iniee'giive way, to ,tll4 -promotion of the
after- that,fieiiiid;" This' stock therefore will remain' •at !. country'swelfare.-,-(Hear.) ~ . ,•.,..,,; .T,. , • ,
~three-atid-Aluarter .p,er
~cOnt. until, 1854 . .
will remain. at three
.per.'c'ent. 1.,, • - ;it ' Mr- W.
ARBURTON. thoroughly agreed in the coin-
be their 'mproveinent in the finances ad been bestovved on the proposition
until -1874, vhawyer may_ inendation,which h
, 1 should
_, I. 9t.
but t theiame dine. t i
whatever ay be •tlie reduction a nfthe court! ,s 4 the. Gevernment,_,• a _
low
PPued,to•ether petal° ibe forgotten that it was the rate of profits which
.0f the national debt.-(Markz, ut s '• ' . - ns
'' '
- • utrPnaeefellovred: by' t enabled Ministers to make this proposition; and; the low
laughtei-; tin - tho:Oppositic,ll benches ' • ' ' •' • 'there faith toplaced
~ -I.lk thetaidst. of ! rate of profits was, it were any be
-. i •
'lv hick-senr / lion:Members. ruse mut:left thcl li • ' •-I ' • • ' Mr• if .Mr Malthus, ttr' '
- '' • '', • - - (4.lse-;).1 tit gig, opiniens of .. if .ardoror ~ , a 4-
I .harrily expeetcd :and' &ether..
_,L•tkrit.'49itir(l4,ltglite4:i. .butahle•to the eorn-laWs. ' , .
.., , ,
Thedtringen/thifg innstiktriiiete in the -niOde in which i • Mr. RICARDO congratulated the Titirlit2dif.'cieff='
all similar arrangements nave been made before, by tleman on the plea he -had laid before the kleoe. He
..

fr., S._ CRAWFORD rose. for the purpose of pre-
.
sentinF several petitions, complaining that the House did
tot fairly represent- the opinions of the people, and that
°they were not adequate to the voting away of the pub-
lic money. The BOIL gember presented petitions to
this effect from Aberdeen, and from' the
,inhabitants of
BridpOrt; and other- places. .

THE;:.; UN,II4P N\PD INTS. SATURD A 1 E31.#14 DWG, MARCH 95 18443

.7-- -.
--
7- ---
- §IIISPLY..
The Order of the Day for 'going- into' the Committee of
Supply having been again.read, ; , .-.- -:. -
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said he would only' do-
tain the House for one moment, whilst he expressed his inten-
tion not further to persevere in his efforts to stop the grant of
supplies until the grievances of the people had bees redressed.
He had persevered as far as he could; but in ceasing to perse-
vere he wished it to be understood that he protested againsathe
competency of that House to make laws so long as the great
body of the people were unrepresented in it. He admitted he
was not backed by a sufficient power of public opinion.to make
it desirable for him to continue his efforts ;'• but he wished it to
be understood that whenever that power of opinion should, in
his judgment, be sufficient, he should renew his endeavours.
With this protest he should not further attempt to binder the
House going.on with, those supplies which the exigencies of the
public service were:said to require..-(Hear, hear.) •
• The House then went into the Committee of Supply.
- ARMY ESTIMATES.
• The first vote was for 158,2311: for defraying the charge of
the General and Staff officers in Great Britain and Ireland,
and foreign stations, except India, which was agreed to. with
out any discussion.
. The next vote was for 90,3081. for charges 'of allowance of
officers of the several public military establishments of Great
Tiritain. • ; .
.' _ • . ,
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the charge for the Com-
mander-ins Chief and his Staff being increased upwards of
2,0001. for the present year. He .wanted to know why the
present Commander-in-Chief was allowed so much more than
the last. Lord Hill, as Commander-in-Chief, received
9/. 9s. 3d. a-day, while the present .Commander-in-Chief re-
ceived 161.81. 9d. a':.clay. •
Sir H. - HARDINGE said that the reason of the difference
_was this, the one was a .Field-Marshal, while the .Other was
only a Lieutenant-General.
After some short discussion the vote.was.agreed to, as were
also the following votes : •
13,468/. to defray the charge of the Royal Military College,
and the Hibernian School. . - ' •
88,076/. for the volunteer corps. " , .
• 1,6491. for the unpravided service of. former years. •
1a,9531. to defray thg charges fer the reward-of distinguished
, ..
services. , , - , . ... , •
• 27;000/. to defray the charge of general officers. ' -
The next vote proposed was for a sum of 62,3001. for defray-
ing the allowances of retired officers. ' • • -
Colonel RAWDON wished to know whether there would be
any objection, to permitting officera to retire on-a superior rank,
with the alloWances only of the'renk which they then•held ?
Sir HENRY HARDINGE thought there would be ierions
erections to such a proposal. For instance, an officer, 'with
the half-pay of a colonel, would have to support the rank of a
.general officer.—The vote was then agreed to.
The next' vote. proposed was for 450,3001. for half-pay mili-
tary_allowances.
Colonel RAWDON suggested that the sums retained fOr the
support of officers in hospitals, suffering from mental aberration,
should, when they were dismissed from hospital, be returned to
them.with interest. -
Sir H. HARDINGE could not agree to the proposition.
- Dr.. BOWRING said that 2,8131: was stated to be the sum
arising from the sale of commissions. Was that the only sum
received by the Government from that source?
Sir IL HARDINGE said that it was.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS, in allusion to what had been stated
by' the Secretary at War as to • the saving effectedin the half-
paj', would observe that in 1622 the total expense of the army
ways -.0,782,0001.; and this year' it was 2,20,000/. Ile thought
a Mitch larger 'saving might have been effected- in the half-pay.
Sir H. HARDINGE said-that in 1622 there were 9,744
officers on, half-pay, notithetants and non-combatants, and
.the vote for half-pay for the year amounted to $07,811/. ; this
year the , ntuallser of .officers on balf-pay was 4,032, and the
half-pay amounted to 450,0001., thus showing a diminution in
the neither of 'offcers' of .5,71 and in' the amount of half-
pa.- of 420,8281. He: should be -very happy to grant the Hon.
G ntleman any returns on the aubject-he might wish. .. , •
s
it C. NAPIER said the Gallant General had given them
a eretty specimen of the mortality in the service, yet his' Hon.
Friend did not seem to think they 'died fast enough.
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped that the. ;returns would- show the
'number 'of officers on half-pay in 1816,11 well aiiia.lB2i'
colonel R 4 WDON thought the Eight Hon. and Gallant
:Gentleman must have misunderstood the question which he had
put just now. 'He had meant to ask, if there would be any ob-
jection to allowing, officers' wholad . sold out to retain the rank
whiai they herd an quitting the service?
1 ,• Sir HENRY .HARDINGE said the subject had been con-
sidered by the Naval and Military Commission, and they had
deaded.thatit would not be proper to grant such permission,
except in very extraordinary cases.
The vote was them agreed to. • - : •
The next vote of 4,932/. for the half-pay and pensions of fo-
reign officers, and for the allowance to the widows and children
of foreign officers, was agreed to without discussion.
The next vote proposed was for a sum of 141,6101., for pen-
sions to officers' widows.
Lord lIOWICK wished to ask for some explanation respect-
ing the refusal of the pension to the widow of Colonel Fawcett,
on the ground that her husband had fallen in a duel?
Sir HENRY• HARDINGE said that the Gallant Officer
opposite had given notice of a motion on the.subject for Mon-
'day.and he thought that the discussion had better be postponed
until that evening.: He would, however, go en if the. Gallant
Officer wished to "take the discussion now.".
Captain B,ERNAL—Nin ' '• - ' -..
Sir HENRY 'HARDINGE. would content himself with
stating that he did not think that the circumstances_of the duel
were such as to justify him in, redommendingthe.wiclow to her
.-Majesty for a pension, and his Right Hon. Friend, with whom
he,h,ad consulted, agreed with him in opinion. - •
• . Captain BERNAL—Had postponed his motion till Monday,
,at . the request *of several Hon: and' Gallant Members. - He
brOtrght it forward as -u distinct motion, hee:ause he _ doubted -
• Whether the Subject would. meet with so much attention•as it,
~deserved, I( ik were only discussed incidentally in Committees
of Supply'.
___,, ' -,.. s • ' ' ,
, Lord HOWICK Could not agree to- this-vote without some .
•e.‘planation On the subject. He objected to asnetion such ai
tht Of which the Hon. and Gallanthlevaberlsadgivennotice,ou
the question being put that the Speaker do leave the Chair, con-.
aidering AA he did that it was interfering-with the.pregress of
publie,business. It was more constitutional and Parliamentary to
discuss such a question in Committee of Supply, unless they were
prepareato take the strong step of addressing the Crown on
the subject of granting the pension .to Mrs. Fawcett, 'a course
which he for one was not disposed to recommend. • He could
not let the present vote pass without making some observe
do 'on the subject,of the refusal of the pension. If the Go-
re lament were prepared seriously to-take up the question of
du fling and' ta de 'all in their power to' discourage • and put
doWn thatunchristian and improper practice, then he should
•actiniesce in the necessity, however painful, of refusing the pen-
sion to Mrs. Fawcett. But if the Government were, not pre--
pared ad to deal-with thegeneral question, then the refusal of
the pension to the widow of Colonel Fawcett' was, an act of
great cruelty and 'injustice.--(Cheers.) ' Was it not manifest
that officers Were 'frequently punished for refusing to go out
to fight a duel?, ' Less than a year ago an officer had beensen-
tericed to be suspended from rank and pay upon- the finding
of a courtsmartial for not taking steps to obtain immediate re-
dress for a gross outrage which-had been offered to him.
Hd kneW' that he should be -told that the redress meant was
tht which could' be obtained by ' applying 'at - the Horse
i'Gdards. Nit he would say boldly that that was a mere eva-
•sioh.--4 Cheers. ) They all. knew that- the_ real redress, was
that *birth was called demanding satisfaction.—(Cheers. ). He
would ask the Judge-Advocate if• a sentence of a court-martial
s hail not beep stibmitted to him without that evasion,', in which
,in officer had been Sentenced •triliuniihment for declining to
fight a duel. The Right Hon. Gentleman •hact 'felt that a
sentence in that shape was illegal, end' eould not be allowed
to 'pass ; init. the fact of ' such A ' charge having been enter-
taieed bro 'court-martial, proved that what was really ex-
. peered of. an officer was--not, that he should, appeal to the
lice-se Guards, but that he should .takeredress into his. own
harids.--( Hear, hear.) , If suchthiigs were allowed to go on
in the army,•and no more effectual measures were adopted to,
Pat down duelling, it would be the height. of injustice to re=
fuse to the widow of an officer, who had fallen m•a duel, her
i pension.; They might talk of. the difficulty of legislation on the
subject, but it was -iri the Power of the, Government
to
,prevent duelling in' the army .withont any legislative
measure whatever." Let them make known-in en authoritative
manner that -the. 'present system should -not
,be 'permitted to
continue. Let them call upon all officers who had received, an
ins it to 'submit their case to some superior authority.; Let
a Court. of Inquiry be assembled to consider each case, and
haring 'ascertained the merits of it, let them exercise the pres
rogative of ' the . Crown by pronouncing the -dismissal of the
guilty party. Let them give
.atuplemeana ter 'punishing per-
setis who,vvere ;nity of insults, which, under preseet, circum-
stances, must lead to a duel. lie would Also have it made,
tr:nOsirn• that in 'every 'ease in which officers 'had recourse to
duelling, all the parties concerned, both principals apd aeconds,
shnuld be dismissedthe service.. By these means they might
ht down the great evil of duelling in the army. He 'did not
believe that It *as impossible to put it down in the community
'generally. The first thing required was to mitigate the undue
severity of the existing law. The killing a man in, a duel,
although - nominally : a great crime, vas
,• a crime of a
different' nature from that of murder, mid. required
a ' different punishment. And it ,was on • account
of 'the undue severity of the punishment inflicted by law, that
the" law was not enforced. Let there be a moderate and, ust
pueishineist inflicted 'by. law upon those who engaged in duels
and let that law be uniformly and impartially,enforced:
-Another step, which should, be adopted to do away with the
• necessity .of duelling; was to give to ,persons who had been in-
'suited some means of Obtaitilng proper redress from the legal
tribunals of 'the %Country. . He did not think .there would be.
difficulty in fruiting 'some law that would enable any person
-who'' might be insulted to obtain redress proportionate; to, that
,insnit 'in .a:ctoirt of law. As he said before, there were two
courses open to her Majesty's Government—either they might
allow things to remaiwas they 'bad hitherto been; _and if they
did=if they would shut their eyes to the practice of duelling, and
do 'nothing morethan connive at its existence, then they ought
to grant the pension to Mrs. Fawcett. • The other course was,
that they should set . themselves-seriously to work to put down
the practice altogether not ..to_look • over a case of duelling,
whoever ,might' be:the -parties ,concerned. They could- not
'forget the case lately of a person in a high and distinguished
stations-:a" station: made - the' ;offence infinitely' .more
• aggravated than' itoould be in amilitary officer. , In that most
' remarkable case; he • thought that -the high authorities before
-whom it had'been brought. had'acted improperly.. The ,Go-
vernment had passed iiver that offence, which bad attracted so
• 'flitch notice, as one of the .nrost vestal crimes--in such con-
duct there was no consistency. esOne line. or the other ought_
to :be -adaptesie Ishar-isughtuto .act -.impartially against all
offenders ; or, if not, they ought not to be guilty of what he
• nnist consider 1 thee cruelty and . injustice of ;refusing to the
''widow of one of the unfortunate victims of this most unhappy
system the - pension •which; it. VV a s Very possible, -her circum-
•stances might render Most particularly necessary. . •
• ' Captain .BERNAL didnot‘consider himself open to the lec-
ture which the Noble Loid the Member- for ,Sunderland! had
-theughtit „to read' hini Oti, cc:institutional law. ' He had eons
'suited other gentlernehi -who were. as competent: to: give an•
opinion as the Noble Lord; epos :the nOurse he had adopted,
and nothing had fallen front the Noble Lord.in the course of
his speech kwhieiCsvOtild hinder 'hitt Srom moving, on going into
'the Committee of Supply,-the-special notice of the House to the
case of Mrs. Fawcett.".: - • • ' -
' ' Sir H. HARDINGE said the apeech of the• Noble Lord was
'not characterisedbrhis usual fairness.' The Noble Laid knew
that the cased( the unfortunate lady.was to he brought. forward
,cin Monday, and yet he now took occasion to discuss the entire
'-question of military discipline, notwithstanding' the opportunity
' which he -*mild have •rif-- discussing the subject on Monday.
• This was a vbfe for thepensions of widows. • After,he (Sir.H.
' Ilardinge) had stated'the grounds upon upon tvhich he refused
the pension, he thougheit the. Noble Lord took a different view
'from- that of the•Gillant'Officer, it:would have been more y
--pi eptirite' if he Co'ntlenteato postpone- his' observations till:. I
' Gillint Officer's ?notion was before the House. With regard; .
' other parts or the Noble Lord's speech, viz., that officerrin the
army were expected to fight their way out of any difficulty by
. duelling, and that that practice was connived it -by •indiiiduals
hat the- head of the: army, he must-give the Noble ' Lord,
notwithstanding, his, having been 'so long Secretary-at
'War, the strongest; ' contradiction. ' He did - not believe
that the statement of the Noble Lord was borne out by facts:•
, He was Confident' the. Noble Lord could not produce any: case
i' where any:officer was brought to a court-martial and cashiered,-
" for not/miring Ibught a duel in 'coniequenee of an insult offered:
"Ito him. Officers, by the Articles of War, were liable to be
;cashiered, for fighting a -duel.:- It'-was 'stated in one-of the
Articles of Wai.:,;, that any-officersaiho shoeldgive, send, or pre.;
ni
. ote.ecliallenge,lii teenier an +Officer ofsdisgrasiefor- refusing. a
challenge, should be brought to a court-martial, and be