The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORN! NG, FEBRUARY 21, 1844.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 20.

Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
INDEMNITY OF WITNESSES.

The Bill for indemnifying witnesses examined before
Committees of Parliament, was read a third time, and
passed.
LAW OF LIBEL.
Oa the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the Law of
Libel Bill was read a second time, and referred to a
Committee.
On the motion of Lord NORMANBY, returns of the
correspondence between the Lord Chancellor and Mr.
aDriscoll were ordered.
Their Lordships then adjourned till Thursday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
Mr. HARDY brought up the Manchester and Leeds
lisaway Bill, which was read a first time ; also, the
Huddersfield Branch Railway Bill, which was read a
first time.
Mr. MUNTZ brought up the Birmingham Naviga-
tion Bill, which was read a first time.
Mr. WALKER brought up the Manchester, Leeds,
and Heywood Branch Railway Bill, which was read a
first time.
On the motion of Mr. M. PHILIPS, the Manchester
Bury, and Rossendale Railway Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed.
Mr. MUNTZ presented a petition from Birmingham,
praying for a reduction of the duty on tobacco.
Mr. 0. GORE presented a petition from Oswestrv, in
Wales, complaining of the heavy tolls payable on lime
conveyed for the purposes of husbandry.
Mr. B. COCHRANE presented a petition from Lord
Dundonald, praying for an extension of the patent for
his invention of the rotatory steam-engine.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Ha-
wick, in Roxburghshire, praying the House not to grant
supplies until the suffrage had been extended, and the
grievances of the people had been redressed.
The following Members were appointed the
Select Committee on Divorce Bills : Mr. Hay-
ter, Mr. Scarlett, Mr. Sergeant Stock, Sir John
Yarde Buller, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Bur-
roughes, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Tancred, Mr. Evans, Mr.
Bruce, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. Patrick M. Stewart,
Mr. Robert Scott, and Mr. Darby.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS gave notice that he should post-
pone till this day fortnight his motion, which stood for
'to-morrow, that no business be brought on after twelve
o'clock at night.
Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that he should
postpone his motion respecting the right of search from
to-morrow till to-morrow fortnight.
On the motion of Mr. WATSON, the following re-
. turns were ordered:—Return of all the officers in the
Courts of Common Pleas and Chancery of the county
palatine of Lancaster, and in the Crown-office of the
county palatine of Lancaster, with names of the officers,
and the dates of their respective appointments (and of
the persons by whom appointed), distinguishing
between • those that are paid wholly or in part
by. fees, and those that are paid by salary,
with the amount of such fees or salary received by each
of such officers, and stating which (if any) of such offices
are sinecure, or performed- by deputy, with the name of
such deputy or deputies, with the date and particulars
.of their appointment, and the salaries paid to such de-
puty; also, a return of all fees received in those Courts
in the years 1841, 1842, and 1843, and of the appropria-
tion thereof, stating the names of the several persons to
whom such fees are paid, either for salary, compensation,
or otherwise, and the title and nature of the office, or
abolished office, in respect of which the same is paid ;
also, a return of all compensations granted for the
Last ten years before the 31st day of December, 1843,
to any officer of the Court of Chancery or Court of
Common Pleas at Lancaster, stating the amount
of such compensation, and the nature of the per-
sons to whom, and the office in respect of which, the
same was granted, and the amount of compensations
paid in each of those years. Similar return from the
Court of Pleas, Court of Chancery, and Crown-office of
the county palatine of Durham. Return of all the fees
received by the taxing masters of the Court of Chancery
since their appointment, stating on what aceount re-
•ceived, and how applied and appropriated. Return of
all moneys received on account of fees in the years 1841,
1842, and 1843, in the Courts of Queen's Bench, Com-
mon Pleas, and Exchequer, or of any of the officers
thereof; and a return of the application or appropria-
tion of moneys so received ; and a return of all salaries,
compensations, and other payments made out of such
moneys, stating the names of the persons to whom paid,
and the office, or abolished or reduced office, in respect
of which such payments are made ; and also, a return
of all officers of such of those Courts who are paid in
whole or in part by fees, stating the names of the per-
sons so paid, and the office in respect of which they are
so paid, and the amount of fees paid to or received by
any such officer so paid in part or in the whole by fees,
in each of those years.
THE CUSTOMS.

Mr. HUME moved fora Select Committee, to inquire
into the extent of smuggling of tobacco, spirits, silks,
tea, and other articles upon which high import and ex-
cise duties are levied, and into the nature and ex-
tent of frauds by adulteration, or by the sub-
stitution of spurious imitations of highly-taxed arti-
cles; and also to inquire into the effects of such smug-
gling and frauds on the revenue of the country, and on
the morals of the persons engaged in these frauds; and
further to inquire into the expense of the coast guard,
and of other establishments for the protection of the
revenue, and to report the evidence, and their opinion
thereon, to the House.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET suggested that,
under present circumstances, the matter should be
postponed.
Mr. HUME said the Committee ought to be appointed,
and to report independently of the report to be expected
from the Commissioners.
PRIVY COUNCIL.

Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of
causes or petitions heard on appeal before the Lord
Chancellor and her Majesty's Privy Council during the
last two years, with the dates of such hearing, distin-
guishing those upon which judgment has been given from
those upon which judgment has not been given.

POST-OFFICE ARRANGEMENTS.
Mr. HUME said that amongst the papers delivered
by the officers of the House that morning, was the copy
of a convention made by the Pest-office of this country.
He wished to ask if there was any chance of such a con-
vention being arranged with the United States, a country
with which it was most desirable that there should be
every facility of communication.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Post-office authorities of this country were in
communication with those of the United States upon the
subject.
IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. HAWES, alluding to a remark made by the Soli-
citor-General, that this was 'a party motion, and would
be a party vote, said,—Such motives should not be
attributed to them, inasmuch as the Govern-
ment proposed nothing for their consideration
calculated to meet the emergency of the moment,
or to restore tranquillity, or allay apprehension for the
future, with regard to Ireland. It had been stated by
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, that conciliation had reached its
utmost limits. That principle was confirmed by the
Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last night.
They had distinctly declared that they were determined
to maintain the Church in Ireland, in the face of all
history and experience, which proved it to be a source
of discord to that country. For this purpose all the
material interests of Ireland were to be postponed to
the simple and single object of maintaining
the Protestant Church inviolate. It was said by a wise
man of old, that Ireland was one of the richest countries
in -Europe—one which they might make a source of
strength and revenue. But by the policy they pursued
towards it, they turned it into a source of weakness and
impoverishment. Instead of adding to their strength
by connexion with that country, their own divisions
made them actually weaker in consequence of that
union, than if they were in a state of perfect
separation. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State had stated that great meetings were held
in Ireland in 1840. It was true " coming events cast their
shadows before"—it was then perceived that the Tories
would succeed to power, and these meetings showed the
great apprehension of the Irish people of the succession
to power of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. If, as the
Honourable Member for Shrewsbury said, it was
necessary to have a strong central Government for
that country, they had it now in the army. Without that
suppression of public opinion there would be such a decla-
ration on the part of the people of Ireland as would
be sufficient to drive them from power. When the Hon.
Member for Shrewsbury pointed to the times of Strafford
and Charles as those of peace and good government, he was
astonished to hear those opinions so favourably received.
The declaration made by a Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, that the Church was to be maintained in its present
state, was, in point of fact, nothing more than a declara-
tion that Ireland must henceforth- be governed by force.
The present state of Ireland reminded him (Mr.
Hawes) of a very eventful period in our history,
that of p 76, when the first news arrived in this country
of the Imerican declaration of independence. At that
time the Government seemed to be determined, as their
difficulties increased, to make more stringent their coer-
cive measures with respect to the colonies. The House
would remember that in 1817 the Right Hon. Baronet
made a most powerful speech against Catholic Emanci-
pation, and yet twelve years afterwards the same Right
Hon. Baronet proposed the Catholic Emancipation Bill.
It was the same with respect to the Test and Corporation.
Act, for two years before that measure was proposed
the Right Hon. Baronet spoke most powerull
it. It had several times been said during thisY against
debate
that the Catholics at the time of emancipation
gave
pledge that the Protestant Church should not be again
a
made the subject of agitation. He (Mr. Hawes), in the
presence of the Right Hon. Baronet, begged to deny
this. Mr. O'Connell at the time of emancipation said that
if that Act were carried out faithfully and with spirit, it
would lead to religious equality, and therefore it would
be the means of abolishing religious differences. Had this
been the case, of course there would have been no fur-
ther agitation on the subject of the Protestant Church.
He appealed to the House, whether the spirit of the
Catholic Emancipation Act had been followed out.—
(Hear, hear.) The authorities had acted in a spirit op-
posed to that Act.—(Loud cheers.) Appointments
the most offensive had been made. Two partisan
judges had been raised to the bench.—(Cheers.) All
their measures were opposed to the Emancipation Bill,
and judging from the appointments which they had
made, he felt convinced that the present Government
was adopting the old course of governing Ireland by
maintaining the Protestant ascendancy. He was con-
vinced that until perfect religious equality should be esta-
blished in Ireland there would be no hope of establishing

peace in that country.—(Cheers.) With regard to the
proposition of the Noble Lord on the subject of the
Irish Church, all he understood the Noble Lord to pro-
pose was this, that the policy he should wish to see
adopted was one which should acknowledge perfect
religious equality.—(Hear, hear.) If Hon. Gentle',
men opposite thought they could raise the "No Popery'
cry in England, he would tell them that they would be
disappointed. The Protestant Dissenters would not be
roused by that cry to aid those who sought to perpetuate
the religious bondage of the Irish.—(Cheers.) The Pro-
testant Dissenters had been opposed to the Catho-
lics of the olden time, because the Catholics had been
opposed to civil liberty, but when they found the Ca-
tholics of Ireland were supporting the principle of civil
liberty, the Protestant Dissenters of England would not
be roused by the " No Popery" cry.—(Cheers.) The
existence of the Established Church in Ireland tended
to strengthen the cause of the Roman Catholic religion,
and to make it take deep root in the hearts of the people.
Nothing but the establishment of religious equality
could produce tranquillity in Ireland. If the payment
of the Catholic priesthood should be proposed as part of
a great plan for tranquillising Ireland—if it
were conjoined with a measure fob the extension
of the franchise, both municipal and Parliamentary,
then he would be prepared to sacrifice his preconceived
opinions, and to support such a measure ; but if it were
proposed as a measure by itself, and separated from any
proposition for ameliorating the condition of the Irish
people, he should give it all the opposition in his power.
—(Hear.) He should prefer seeing the voluntary system
established in Ireland. He should wish to see the whole
of the Irish Church vested in the hands of Commis-
sioners, and devoted to the providing of moral and re-
ligious instruction for the whole community.—(Hear.)
That principle might not find favour in this House, but
it had grown up with the growth of the country. It
had gradually made its way among the nation, and if
they wished that the State should receive effective and
pure religion, the best way of acccomplishing that
was by leaving religion alone. The history of Dissent
in this country fully proved that the voluntary princi-
ple,. if properly worked, would be fully sufficient to im-
part religious instruction. The Hon. Gentleman went
on to show how Dissent was established in this.country,
and said that the State was a pernicious ally of any reli-
gion. Many eminent men had held this opinion, that the
difference between Catholicism and Protestantism was,
that the one sought the aid of the State to uphold it,
while the other relied on its own independent priest-
hood. As he said before, he would support the payment
of the Catholic clergy in Ireland as a part and parcel of
a general plan for the tranquillisation of that country,
but he still should maintain that it would be desirable,
and he should desire a reversion to the voluntary prin-
ciple. It was a mistake to think that the prosecution
against Mr. O'Connell would deprive him of the sym-
pathy of the people of Ireland. It was an unjust and un-
worthy course to adopt,and was inadequate to attain its
end, for it would only add to Mr. O'Connell's strength in
Ireland, and multiply the number of his friends. He
did not consider him to have had a fair trial.—(Cheers.)
Under such circumstances the verdict which had been
obtained would have no moral effect. It had been said
that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department made out a good case with
regard to the striking of the jury, but he (Mr. Hawes)
took a higher objection, and he did not see why men
should be pronounced unfit to deliver a fair verdict,
because they spoke out their political opinions on
the subject of the repeal of the union.—(Hear, hear.)
Would they apply such a doctrine in this country? If at
the time of the Reform Bill a Reformer had committed
aq offence, would it be alleged that there could not be a
fair and just trial if those who were in favour of Re-
form were on his jury, or that they could not give a
verdict according to the evidence ? He had no faith that
the present Cabinet would do justice to Ireland. What
confidence could be placed in men whn sat together in
the same Cabinet, and who changed their opinions and
politics ? The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State for the Horne Department said, that as
an abstract principle, he had no objection to the pay-
ment of the Roman Catholic clergy. That was a ques-
tion which had been before discussed in that House, and
on that occasion the Right lion. Gentleman, the First Lord
of the Treasury, said that the payment of the Catholic
clergy was contrary to the principles of the Reformation,
and they might as well get rid of the Thirty nine
Articles. That would be an answer to the Right
Hon. Gentleman by a member of the same Cabinet.
But take the ease of education : there was no stronger
opponent of the Board of Privy Council than the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home
Department. He was now going to increase the grant
to Maynooth, but who had used stronger language
on the subject than a Noble Duke in the other
House ? The Duke of Wellington declared that
it was opposed to Christianity, and that it
ought not to be permitted to continue. What faith could
he place in the declamations of the Right Hon. Gen
tleman opposite, when he found opinions so strong ex-
pressed by another member of the Cabinet? Promises
had been made before under somewhat similar circum-
stances.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to call
the attention of the House to the promises
given by Mr. Pitt, and he was not aware
that this portion of Mr. Pitt's declaration had yet been
brought under the attention of the House. In April
1800, on the proposal of the union, Mr. Pitt said that if
they wished to accomplish the great work they had
undertaken, they must look at this important subject in
a large and comprehensive point of view ; they must
consider it as a measure of great national policy—the
object of which was to prevent a separation between two
countries whose connexion was as necessary for the
safety of one as for the prosperity of the other ; they
must regard it as a measure the object of which was to
give the sister kingdom full participation in the com-
merce and Constitution of this country—to unite the
affections and resources of two powerful nations, and to
place under one direction the whole force of the empire.
Now he asked Hon. Gentlemen opposite whether, in
point of fact, the union had dissipated jealousy between
the two countries? He would ask the Right Honourable
Baronet whether he was not prevented from carrying
into effect the union ? Her Majesty's Minister
might be inclined to act, perhaps, in a spirit of impar-
tiality ; but there were gentlemen on that side of the
House who were wedded to their own notions; who were
determined to abide by their own prejudices ; who had
learnt nothing and forgotten nothing in the ten years
during which they had been out of office, and who
were resolved to constrain the Right— Honourable
Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), not only to refuse all that
was fair and reasonable, but all which was necessary for
the interest and integrity of the two countries. There
was one man who, at the time when the union was pro-
posed, protested against it in terms most emphatic, not
to say most prophetic ; and his words might well instruct
that party which made Ireland the nursery of sedition.
It was too clear, from the examples he had. given, and
from the authorities he had referred to, that from the
first there had been but a nominal union between
the two nations. The party which had chiefly
governed this country for the last forty years
had kept its position by creating divisions in the
empire ; and it was determined to try for the continu-
ance of its power by the same means which, in the long
run, must be alike ruinous to the governor and the
governed. All the nobler objects of government, all the
hopes and aspirations to render a population more
happy, more moral, and more prosperous, must be post-
poned—and all for the fancied good and safety of the
Church. All the old evils of Ireland were to find fresh
nourishment, to receive permanency and strength, be-
cause of this Church.—(Hear, hear.) The time had
arrived when religious liberty was struggling with
religious intolerance, justice with injustice ; and
though the contest might be a severe one, he had
no fear for the result. It was said, and with perfect
truth, that the eyes of all Europe were fixed upon Ire-
land at the present moment. No man who glanced over
the foreign newspapers could do so without observing
how all minds seemed to be turned upon that country.
It was but natural to expect that the jea-
lousies of foreign nations, in regard to this country
would be excited into livelier action when they saw the
weakness created by our own misgovernment of Ire-
land. And sad ought to be our own reflections, that
should the time of struggle ever come with them, were
we to be doomed to fall, it would not be from the vigour
and power of our foes, but from that innate weakness we
brought upon ourselves in this petty paltry struggle to
maintain the Irish Church.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON said, that Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite must be sadly at a loss for arguments
against the Government,' when they were obliged to
speak as the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down
did, of the elevation of two Right Rev. Prelates to the
Bench. The Hon. Gentleman also seemed tc say, that
being a repealer was sufficient to disqualify a person
from serving on a jury ; but, if the Hon. Gen-
tleman had read the papers, he would see that
that excuse was made by persons who wished not to
serve on juries, but that the Judges had set the matter
right. The object of the prosecutions was not to put
down the agitation for repeal, but to repress the manner
in which it was agitated. There had been much misre-
presentation about the omission of twenty-four names
from the jury list.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that
upwards of sixty names were omitted, when, in truth,
only twenty-four were, by accident, and that acci-
dent was attributable to a Roman Catholic officer.
Great stress had been laid upon this point of the exclu-
sion of Roman Catholics, but he would give them an ex-
planation of the principal cause why the Catholics were
not more prominent. The more respectable and upper
classes of that persuasion were so disgusted at the agita-
tors preaching vengeance against the Saxon, instead of
peace and good will to all men, that they were glad to re-
tire into private life. And no one could wonder at this,
after the accusations which had been made, even in this
House, against the twelve honest men, and the calum-
nies which had been heaped upon them by the Hon.
arid Learned Sergeant the Member for Cork, who called
them a good Protestant jury, ready to convict, and
ready to immolate their foe—
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY—No, no; I never used the
word "immolate."
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON—The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman at all events stated that there was
no justice to be expected from this jury.—(Hear, hear.)
During this debate he had heard much of the readiness
but
which the Irish nation would receive a foreign foe,
ut he would tell Honourable Gentlemen foreign foes
were not so ready to take advantage of this nation.
He then alluded to the ytituperative abuse which Mr.
the in the habit
raising
17pCpeo,nnat
oing heapinga an
on
Irish. Louisbrigade
-;
Government in Ireland
was and then denied that the
was wholly .one a force and
opi-
nion. It would be impossible with suclilemilitary force to hold 8,000,0000 of, inhabitants in as
such
sub-
jection. He, therefore, thought it was a most calum-
nious and unwarrantable insult, to charge the whole
nation with being disaffected to the Queen, and desirous of
throwing off her authority, and dismembering the empire.
It had been said that order and peace had prevailed in
Ireland ; there was no doubt that this was owing to the
preaching of the Honourable and Learned Member for

Cork. But he preached peace, and at the same time
levied an army—he preached loyalty, and at the same time
attempted to alienate her Majesty's army from her.
If the Government had not interfered, the loyal inhabi-
tants of Ireland would have armed themselves in self-
defence, and opposed force to force. One side of the
House attempted to monopolise all feeling and sympathy
for Ireland, as if Hon. Me.nbers on this (the Ministerial)
side of the House were utterly callous to the !
grievances and wishes of Ireland, but he could tell Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, that there was an earnest desire
among Members of the Conservative party to redress 1
the real grievances of that country, and to improve her !
condition. It was said that the Honourable Gentleman
the Member for Cork exercised an all-powerful influence
over the people of Ireland ; and the same was said of the
Roman Catholic priesthood ; if so, they were criminable
for all those disgraceful offences were the result of
agitation and excitement. But the fact was, neither the
Honourable Gentleman nor the Catholic priesthood
were able to control the feelings of the people.
The priests had, in the first instance, raised their voices
against Father Mathew, but the principles of tempe-
rance triumphed, despite the influence of the priesthood.
Ireland should not be considered as one uniform coun-
try, to which the same remedies were applicable,
He came from Ulster, and there was not a more peace-
ful, quiet province in Ireland. They had few soldiers
there. Property was safe p there were no out-
rages. And yet they had no peculiar advan-
tages. They had a third Church to support there,
and the majority of the inhabitants of the province were
Roman Catholics ; but the inhabitants of that province
were, generally speaking, what was denominated
bloody" Tories, and all those who had influence
did everything in their power to improve the condition of
the people, to educate them, and instead of endeavour-
ing to set man against man, they endeavoured to unite
all classes of society in harmony.—(Cheers.) Let
them compare the state of Ulster with that of
Tipperary. The state of Tipperary made every Irish-
man blush. Had not the societies established from
time to time by the Liberals been changed almost every
year on account of their trenching upon the law of the
land? They had had societies for every object and of
every character, but there had not been one of them
that had.been of a strictly legal character. Was it then
to be wondered at that the unfortunate people of Ireland
had to a great extent forgotten obedience to the law?
They talked of British capital being driven away. Of
course it was driven away. Capitalists would not go
where life was in danger even in broad daylight.
Capital never would go there till life was safe, and life
would not be safe so long as agitation was permitted.
When English Members complained of the suppression
of meetings in Ireland, they must remember what were
the means used to bring about those assemblages—the
natural excitability of the Irish people, and the
circumstance of their being attracted by the
transcendent eloquence of their leader.—(Hear.)
At some of the meetings in Ireland there were fifteen
hands of music and numerous banners, things which
never were to be seen at a meeting in England. There
was no similarity between political agitation in England
and in Ireland, and as little similarity between the feel-
ings mad passions of the two people. Had not the
Honourable anti Learned Member for Cork called
the proclamation of her Majesty a forgery,
and stated that it never had emanated from her ? Of all
the silly accusations which had been brought against
the Government by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, none was
more foolish than that the proclamation was delayed
for the purpose of bringing the people into collision
with the military. He felt no doubt that the object of
the Noble Lord's motion was to attach the stigma of a
want ofconfidence by the House in her Majesty's Ministers.
Judging from appearances—from the manner in which
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been received by
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and from the fact of his hav-
ing sent over two counsel to advise with the Noble Lord
—he should be inclined to believe that the Lichfield
House compact had been renewed. He deprecated the
attacks which had been made upon the present Govern-
ment of Ireland, and considered that the animadversions
of' the Right Hon. Gentleman, last evening, on the com-
position of the jury, on the verdict, and on the charge of
the judge, were calculated to produce anarchy in Ire-
land. He was glad to hear that a larger sum was to be
devoted to the purposes of national education ; but he
trusted that the present system would be modified in ,
such a manner as to secure to those who were educated
under it a free access to the Scriptures. He should be
glad to see some measure passed to legalise the pay-
ment of dues to the Catholic priests, and to fix their
amount ; and should the dues not be sufficient for the
priest's maintenance, he should not object to a State
allowance. He thought it was a great mistake to grant
only 8,0001. a year to Maynooth; the grant should be in-
creased so as to hold out an inducement to persons of the
superior classes to study for the priesthood. He should
also wish to see the Roman Catholic College removed
from Maynooth to some part of England, in which the
Catholic gentry and yeomanry of the neighbourhood
would be inclined to treat the students with that courtesy
which they did not meet with at present.
The O'CONOR DON protested against Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the other side claiming for themselves a mo-
nopoly of Loyalty.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever might be
the result of this debate, the declaration of the Noble
Lord with regard to the kind feelings of her Majesty to-
wards her Irish subjects would be gratefully remembered
in that country—(Loud cheers)—and justly appreciated.
—(Cheers.) There was not a more loyal body in exist-
ence than the Roman Catholic population of Ireland—
(Cheers)—and this was no conditional loyalty—it did
not depend on considerations of time or circumstance—
upon Whig or Tory being in power. It was sincere and
genuine attachment to the Sovereign.—(Loud cheers.)
He objected to the system which had been pursued to-
wards Ireland by the present Government. It was true
that many circumstances, of which complaints had been
made, had been explained during the course of the de-
bate, but those circumstances had created an impression
which no after•explanation could eradicate, and it was
the duty of the Government so to act as not to place
itself under the necessity for explanation. He did not
think the explanations which had been offered to
account for the delay in the issuing the proclamation
prohibiting the meeting at Clontarf were satisfactory.
No attempt had been made to interfere with the
Donnybrook meeting, which had been held under pre-
cisely similar circumstances. The people had behaved
most peaceably ; and when it had been hinted that the going
to Clontarf in a certain direction might hurt the feelings
of the Protestants, who would meet them on the road to
church, they had stated their determination to avoid
going to the meeting by that road. There had been
no breach of the peace at the other meetings, and there
was no pretence for saying that there was any reason to
apprehend a breach of the peace at Clontarf. They had
had no intimation that the meetings were illegal. The
Duke of Wellington had stated, in the House of Lords,
that he did not know whether these meetings were legal,
and the late Lord Chancellor of England, one of the
greatest lawyers of the day, had, in the same debate,
stated that although the meetings were large, yet if the
parties sought for constitutional objects only by legal
and peacefbl means, there was no ground for considering
them illegal.—(Hear, hear.) Now considering that the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland had told the people of
Ireland that they were to read the debates in Parlia-
ment, and be guided by them in their conduct, he
I thought that opinion was a sufficient justification of their
conduct. It was cruel of the Government, if they thought
those meetings illegal, not to have stated so at once, in-
stead of entrapping men of peaceful habits into this vortex
of agitation.—(Cheers.) He did not think the explanation
with respect to the omission of names from the jury
panel at all satisfactory. He acquitted the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw) of all knowledge of
the omission. He knew it would be foreign to his na-
ture to do anything so unfair, but he could not but re-
co'lect that Mr. Justice Perrin had said that the omis-
s as not free from suspicion.
1111 F. SHAW—The facts had not then been stated.

The O'CONOR DON believed that the case had
been fully argued by counsel before Judge Perrin had
stated, in giving judgment, that there had been gross
neglect somewhere, and that the case was not free from
suspicion. With respect to the striking off the names
of the Roman Catholics, which had been justified by the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Armagh, he would ask
that Hon. Member whether, if, in 1829, the Govern-
ment had thought proper to institute a prosecution
against persons connected with the Orange Associa-
tions, who met in large numbers to petition for the re-
peal of the Emancipation Act, he would have thought
it fair in the Government to strike the name of every
Protestant from the jury, and to try them by a
jury composed exclusively of Roman Catholics ?—whe-
ther he would have thought it right for the Solicitor-
General to state that he did not believe the Protestants
were 'worthy to be believed on their oaths, and that
therefore they must be struck off the panel? The Right
Hon. Gentleman said peace had been established by the
verdict. If he meant by that there had been no breach
of the law, it should he recollected that there was no
breach of the law before the prosecutions commenced.—
(Cheers.) But the national mind had never been more
disturbed than,it was at the present moment ; and he
much feared that serious consequences might arise from
the people being deprived of the opportunity of express-
pig their opinions.—(Hear hear.) Government might
prevent an outbreak, but it could not enforce upon
the people the performance of those social duties,
the omission of which would produce immense evil.
He firmly believed that no man abhorred the commis-
sion of crime more than Mr. O'Connell. He, in com-
mon with other Roman Catholics, felt a deep debt
of gratitude to him, for to him were they mainly in-
debted for giving them a share in the Constitution.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought they should feel indebted to
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for the discussion on
the present motion. It was not very long ago that the
Nob!e Lord, the Member for London, spoke of finality;
it was only a few months ago that the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite said there was an end of concession;
but yet, on the present occasion, they were rivalling one
another in professions of anxiety to serve Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Noble Lord in think-
ing that one of the first objects which it was imperative
on the Government to effect was, to render the admi-
nistration of justice pure in Ireland. Confidence in the
laws should be restored ; respect for the laws could only
exist in sympathetic confidence between the governors
and the governed. Within three months after the ar-
rival of Lord De Grey in Ireland, the number of memo-
rials from the three Roman Catholic provinces to the Exe-
cutive had diminished by half, whilst that of Protestant
Ulster was increased three-fourths.—(Hear, hear.) He
objected to the appointment of new stipendiary magis-
trates at present, but he objected to it because he knew
that men would be appointed in whom the people
had no confidence. Last night, the Solicitor-Ge-
neral challenged the Opposition to show a single
instance in which a Catholic had not been appointed to
a Government situation when he was equally eligible as
a Protestant. He would instance one. In the county
which he (the O'Conor Don) represented, a situation
in the gift of the Crown had beCome vacant by the death
of a Mr. Cummins. Himself and his colleague had ex-
erted themselves very much to procure the situation for

Mr. Fitzgibbon, the Crown sessional prosecutor, who '
was a Roman Catholic, but a gentleman who had never
interfered in politics, and who was most successful and
eminent in his profession. He was a native of the
county, and his talents were admitted, but the situation
harbeen given to a gentleman from a distant county,
and who was not a Roman Catholic.—(Hear, hear.)
',here was an instance, and he could mention another,
but that he did not like to travel out of his own county.
He thought the educational system ought to be ex-
tended, but before it could be productive of much bene-
fit, the people must be fed. Education and famine did
not travel together. Agricultural societies would do
much to improve the condition of the country. A society
of this nature had been established in Ballinasloe by the
Marquis of Clanricarde, which had been productive of
very great benefit. He thought that endow-
ments should be legalised, whether made by Catholics
or Protestants. Allusion had been made to the Landlord
and Tenant Commission. He hoped that the Commis-
sion would shortly conclude its labours, as he feared
very exaggerated opinions would be entertained re-
garding the results it would effect. Now, with respect
to the elective franchise, he sincerely hoped that a Bill
under the name of extending the Irish franchise might
not in reality diminish it, and thus add to the griev-
ances of the country. Provision should be made in
that Bill so as to enable the Roman Catholic clergy to
vote at elections as pastors. It was very galling to
them to see the Protestant clergy going to elections to
rote against their interest, whilst that which had entitled
them to qualify had been spent in the erection of chapels
and administering to the temporal wants of their pa-
rishioners. Now, regarding the oath taken by Roman
Catholics, the Noble Lord who had alluded to it (Lord
Stanley) had done so in a very ungenerous and unjust
manner. When that Noble Lord was on this side of the
House and Captain Gordon attacked Roman Catholic
Members, inie_h in the same strain that the Noble Lord
had done, the Noble Lord reproved the Gallant
officer; but it appeared that the consciences of Roman
Catholic Members were to be measured by the baro-
meter of the Noble Lord's political feelings. The Hon.
Gentleman then quoted from a speech of Sir Charles
Wetherell, in which that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had expressed an opinion that Ro-
man Catholics were entitled to a vote on the ap-
propriation of Church property, as well as other Hon.
Members, and all the casuists in Oxford, he said, could
not prove the contrary. He was sorry to see the dis-
cussions that had taken place. Ireland was merely a
battle field, and her real condition was not considered.
Ireland was thought as little of by the contending par-
ties, as Waterloo had been by the rival armies. He
wished that party spirit could be merged in the consi-
deration of what should be done for Ireland, and that
Englishmen, Irishmen, and Scotchmen would cordially
unite as subjects of the same Crown in the brotherly
spirit of Christian charity, and with a noble and gener-
ous emulation, endeavour to promote the good of the
three parts of the empire. He had no doubt that if
they entered on the state of Ireland in the proper spirit,
the condition of that country would be speedily im-
proved.—(Loud cheers from both sides of the House.).

Sir WALTER JAMES expressed his most unquali-
fied approbation of the mild and Christian-like manner
in which the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down
had delivered his sentiments. It was with much reluc-
tance he took a part in this prolonged debate ; but, re-
presenting as he did an English seaport town, he felt
bound to express his opinions briefly. He thought that
if Catholic Emancipation had been carried at the time of
the union, they would not have experienced such diffi
culty in the government of Ireland. Hon. Gentlemen
opposite seemed to try to prove that all the benefits
which had been conferred upon Ireland, had emanated
from the Whigs. Was it, he would ask, the Whigs who
carried Catholic Emancipation ? No ; but they tried to
filch that Conservative child from its parent, and mix it
up with their vile democratic prejudices, and give it a
Radical education.—(Laughter.) With respect to the
speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland,
he felt bound to say that it was not delivered at all in
the same party spirit as that of the Noble Lord who
opened the debate. He believed the Noble Lord to
whom he first alluded had expressed his opinions and
convictions with the utmost sincerity. It had been
made a charge against her Majesty's Government that
Ireland was at present in a state of military occupation.
But what had this done to that country? Instead
of harm it had done good, for the army had circulated a
great deal of money there, and the best and most kindly
feelings existed between them and the people. He
thought the great cause of misery to Ireland was the
total want of capital for the furtherance of public works;
and if Government were to expend large sums in the
construction of railways, they would be more than com•
pensated by the increased prosperity of the Irish nation.
Another great cause of the degraded state of Ireland,
was that they were deserted by their absentee landlords,
to whom they ought to look for advice and example,
and left solely to the guidance of their priests, who fre-
quently used their influence for the most bigoted ends.
He was so much attached to the principle of establish-
ments, as necessary to the well-being. of the country,
that he would rather see the Roman Catholic religion
established in Ireland than no religion at all. But who
would ever venture on such an outrage as that to the
people of England? He could not blind himself to the
fact that there was great dislike amongst the Irish
people to the Protestants ; but he believed that if the
two religions in Ireland were to be placed on a footing
of equality, it would only tend to increase religious ani-
mosities. Two stars could not exist in the same sphere,
and two religions could not exist upon an equality in
Ireland. He should not oppose an increase to the grant
annually made to the College of Maynooth, and he
would be glad to see the Government take up the propo-
sition of the Noble Lord the Member for Newark (Lord
John Manners) with respect to the Mortmain laws. He
was willing to support• any conciliatory measures for
Ireland consistent with the maintenance of the Esta-
blished Church. He would give the people of Ireland
civil equality and civil indulgences. He had no objec-
tion to the Roman Catholic bishops being allowed to
have titles, but if such indulgence were granted to them,
it should be given with the understanding that if the
bishops engaged in any political agitation, they should
mmediately be deprived of their titles.
Mr. E. BULLER said that if any excuse were want-
ing for his then addressing the House, it would be found
in the charge so often and so unjustly made against
independent Members, of being indifferent as to the hap-
pinesss and prosperity of Ireland. With respect to the
state of Ireland last year, he must say that, in his
opinion, the Government had been justified in using every
constitutional means to put a stop to such a state of
things. He had no doubt that the extracts read from
the speeches which were delivered upon the Opposition
side of the House must convince the House that the
whole weight of argument was against the Ministers.
The agitation which arose was owing, either to the ne-
gligence
icobf
wGeorevesrnedmi
tieonuts,inorntobteisrupmpirscesbsbidnugettihn emeet-
ings,them up to a state of sedition,which would make an excuse
rearing
for the employment of military force: With respect to the
Government for preventing it. He corn-
bellaomnetartfbemeeting, he could only say that he could not
plained only of the manner in which the Government
had chosen to prevent it. The Government ran an
enormous risk of blood and slaughter.—(Cheers.) With
respect to the trials, he would only say, that he did
not think there was any intentional unfairness. He did
not think that the unfairness was intended, but that
there was unfairness, was clear upon the face of the
whole proceed ngs.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said on
the other side of the House, that the result of the trials
had been to restore peace in Ireland.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He would appeal to the House whether the
measures suggested, not proposed, by her Majesty's Go-
vernment would do much to tranquillise Ireland?—
(Hear, hear.) Me wished they would. He wished
that they would do all in tterk power to conciliate
the two nations.—(Hear, and cheers.) He wished that
something should be done to re-unite the people to an
establishment, which was by force endowed with the
wealth which their forefathers had given, and existed
in its power only as an insult to the children of those
who had endowed it.—(Cheers.) Could it be expected
that the Irish people should be attached to the Esta-
blished Church nnder such circumstances? He believed
that if they were willing to act with impartiality to the
Catholic people of Ireland, and to make their ministers
truly Christian ministers, apostles of peace, and sup
porters of the lawful Government, they must admit the
whole people of Ireland to equal rights with the people
of England. As an Englishman he would accept no
less—if he were an Irishman, he would ask no more.—
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LASCELLES said he would not trespass for any
length of time, but he was anxious briefly to state to the
House the grounds on which he should give his vote, and
the view he took of the motion of the Noble Lord, the
Member for London. He could not vote for that mo-
tion. He could not forget that the Noble Lord him-
self, when in power, was not prepared to take the steps
which he now required his successors to take for the
government of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—and he could
not but think that he suggested them now
rather because he was in opposition than on account of
their goodness and propriety. It had been asserted
that Government maintained itself in power by raking
up old passions, and administering to the prejudices of
the Protestant party in Ireland. This he positively de-
nied. When they found how the Protestant popula-
tion of that country had been restrained under circum-
stances of great provocation, he thought it afforded
undeniable evidence, not only Of the excellence of their
intentions, but of the judicious and impartial
course pursued by the Government. And he did think
that it was most unjust to charge, as people did, the in-
discreet expressions of indiscreet individuals upon the
Government itself.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
prosecutions, it was his opinion that if the Government
sincerely wished to put down agitation they could take
no other course than they had done. He was sorry that
some of the speakers on behalf of the Government had
not been more explicit in their statements. Do not let
them deceive the people as to their views and intentions
(Cheers)—but on the contrary, speak plainly and man-
fully to them ; tell them whatever their grievances may
be, the Government will not attempt to remove t my
a repeal of the union.—(Cheers.) It was said by the
opponents of the Government, that they
.might do what
they would, but that such was the suspicion entertained
of them by the Irish, that they could not usefully rule
over that country. But he did not believe that asser-
tion, and he was satisfied that, were the Government re-
moved to-morrow, the same grievances would be raked
up as now. Therefore, he could not join in the recrimi-
nations thrown upon the Government, but must discoun-
tenance and repudiate them by voting against the
motion of the Noble Lord (Russell). There had been
many occasions in which he could not join in the votes
given by the party-he usually acted with. On the Mu-
nicipal Corporations Bill, for instance, he thought it his
duty to give his vote with the then Government in order
to remove the evils which it was proved had crept into
those institutions. •But it was not what they did alone,
but the spirit in which it was done.—(Cheers.) Take
the Irish Registration Bill introduced some sessions
back, to which at first he had given his support, After-

wards returns were ordered by the House, and by
them he learned that the Bill of the Noble Lord (Stalls
ley) would materially diminish the franchise ;
he made up his mind that he would no
longer support it. It was idle in those days
to pin men down in their opinions, or fetter
them too closely in their actions. He did
not wish to trouble the House with his interpreta-
tion of the Catholic oath, but he must be permitted to
express his regret that the Noble Lord (Stanley) had
thought proper to allude to it.—(Hear, hear.) He
could not agree that the Catholic Members banded to-
gether in that House for the purpose of injuring the Pro-
testant Church; on the contrary, they relinquished for
the last two years the advantages their position gave
them, for the purpose of pursuing their favourite sys-
tem of agitation. The great point now was what the
Government proposed to do. He wished the Right
Honourable Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would take the
same course in regard to the Irish Church that he had
done in regard to commerce ; and he particularly de-
sired that he would announce his intentions. If he
would make from time in time in that Church the same
steady and safe alterations and ameliorations as he had
done in our commercial code, the difficulties new
experienced in Ireland would soon begin gra-
dually to disappear.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
taunt the late Government with not carrying the ap-
propriation clause into effect. The Noble Lord,
when he found he could not carry it out, very wisely
abandoned it. The Catholic question stood on quite dif-
ferent grounds from this motion, which involved a most
unjust attack on the Government.
Several Hon. Members here rose together, but the
Speaker called on
Mr. GISBORNE, who said he did not think that, after
five nights' debate, the point was much farther advanced
than it was at first. It was almost unavoidable that it
should be so. In the speeches that had been made by
members of the Government—and he did not under-
value their merit—they had claimed for themselves
every good intention with regard to Ireland; they had
laid claim to kindness and calmness in their general
policy, and to fairness in their administration of justice,
as well as impartiality in the distribution of the Govern-
ment patronage. These were their intentions. He
found it universally stated by travellers and writers of
all nations who had visited Ireland, that there was no
nation in the world with whom a little kindness
went so far as with the Irish people. As far as the ad•
ministrative measures of the Government had gone
it had laid claim to kindness, forbearance, and impar-
tiality. On the other side they had a grateful, a gene-
rous, and a confiding people; to that character of them
the Recorder of Dublin had borne testimony. He would
ask them whether they found in Ireland the national
results of this combination ? They would expect under
these circumstances to find Ireland in a state of peace
and prosperity. They would expect to find the people
living in confidence under such rulers. They would
expect to find them enjoying all the blessings which a
country could enjoy under a beneficent Govern-
ment. If this was not the case surely they
must look on the Hon. Gentlemen opposite as
the most unfortunate of men. Surely they were
good men suffering under adversity, if all the
good acts which it was their intention to have brought
to bear on the Irish people, had failed. He saw in this
fact a greater reason for supporting the motion of the
Noble Lord than in any speech he had heard addressed to
the House. If the Government had failed, having such
good intentions, surely it was time for the House to ex-
amine if there was not something radically wrong in the
system by which it was carried on. When the Go-
vernment succeeded to office, the first thing they did was
to appoint to the judicial bench two fierce political par-
t;sans. Ile would say nothing with respect to their fo-
rensic position, or of the excellence of their pri-
vate character ; but this the Government could not
deny, that for many years, in that House, they
were violent partisans. Suppose Mr. O'Connell had
been tried before Mr. Sergeant Jackson and Baron
Lefroy, would any one have expected an impartial trial?
With respect to their other appointments, the defence
of the Government was this, that though they could
have wished to have appointed Catholics to situa-
tions, the material did not exist ; among the Catho-
lics of Ireland there did not exist persons fit for these
appointments. This was another calamity of the Go-
vernment, which was only demonstrative of the situa-
tion in which they were placed when they
undertook the government of that country. It
was precisely the same with other events.
One calamity after another seemed to fall on this un-
happy Government. In the first place, when they de-
termined to try Mr. O'Connell, wishing to show the
utmost fairness, they determined not to try him by the
common panel, because that, they said, they could have
packed. Now surely they might have tried him by the
common panel without packing it. But perhaps it
might be that the Government did not wish to establish
such a precedent as that of trying a man for a political
offence in Ireland, without packing the common jury; so
they determined to put off the trial in order that they
might have a fair jury. Here, again, calamity followed
them. Without any fault on the part of the Recorder—
without any neglect on his part—almost without any
fault in any body, the virtuous intention of the Go-
vernment was again disappointed. By some' means or
other a certain sheet of the list of the jury was lost, on
which, as the Recorder of Dublin stated, almost all the
names were those of Roman Catholics. But they could
not see the extent of the misfortunes that fell on the Go-
vernment till they came to the striking off of 48 names
from the jury list. When this imperfection of the panel was
laid before the Lord Chief Justice, he said it was of no
consequence. The law prescribed the strict mode in which
a special jury panel should be formed in Ireland.
This panel had not been formed in that manner, it had
not been formed according to law, and yet the Chief
Justice said it was a good one, at least, it was good
enough to try these traversers by. When the forty-
eight names were drawn, the Government—its bowels
yearning to give civil equality to the people of Ireland—
caused a jury to be challenged, and that excellent person
Mr. Kemmis struck off nine Catholics, of whom eight
were Repealers, or contributors to the Repeal fund. But
it so happened there was another Catholic on the list,
unknown to Mr. Kemmis. Now, if they struck nine
names out of forty-eight there would be thirty-nine re-
maining, and if there were any gentlemen in the
House conversant with what were called the
odds, they would see that it was thirty-eight to
one. against Mr. Kemmis hitting on this Catholic.
Mr. Kemmis had got him. He dived amongst the 39
names for the one Roman Catholic, not knowing that
one was there, and he picked him out.—(Laughter.)
Certainly this was one of the most singular coincidences
he ever heard of. He had heard of persons " taking
long odds" and never winning—(Laughter)—but here
was Mr. Kemmis, at the very first draw, drawing the
one Catholic.—(Laughter.) Mr. Kemmis must certainly
possess very magnetic fingers.—(Laughter.) This was
Ra an
go thhte
Hr oofn the
.Gentleman calamities
entlema n s
ao the
i df
he was
mostGovernment.anxious Th
to e n the
have
ae
the trial conducted with great moderation, and he wrote
a letter to the A ttorney-General for Ireland on that point,
He was not going to say anything of certain occurrences
which had been mentioned in that House, but the result
did not correspond to the wish so strongly expressed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman. The last misfortune of the
Government was owing to the speech of the Learned
Chief Justice, who certainly made a stronger speech for
a conviction than the Attorney or Solicitor-General.--
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) No, though a conviction
obtained in the way this had been obtained might gratify
a few Orange partizans—though it might afford a triumph
to some of their supporters—though it might enable
them to imprison Mr. O'Connell with the other traversers,
it would not produce peace to Ireland, nor would it
obtain more respect for the law.----(Hear, hear.) He was
sorry it was admitted on his side of the House that per-
sons were to be struck off the jury because they were Re-
pealers. It was admitted that seven-eighths of the piople of
Ireland were Repealers, and therefore they must be struck
out of the list upon all occasions like the present. It
was said that a Repealer would fast himself to death
rather than bring in a verdict for conviction ; but were
there no persons on the other side who would fast theta-
selves to death rather than acquit?—(Hear, hear.) The
proper course appeared to him to be to strike off known
partisans on both sides.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, who was not in his
place, said they were struck off by the Crown Solicitor
as solicitor for his clients. They all knew what the
duty of attorneys was towards their clients. It was to
win by all means which the very questionable mo-
rality of the law left open to them.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) The Noble Lord was so
possessed of the idea of winning, that he called the
Clerk of the Crown the " clerk of the course."—
(Laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that he
believed one of the Roman Catholics who had been
struck off to be a Repealer, because, though he swore in
his affidavit that he was not a member of the Repeal
Association, he did not swear that he was not a Re-
pealer. That appeared to him to be much the same as
if a person was told "I saw you in Pall-mall to-day,"
and upon his making an affidavit that he was not there
was told " Oh, but you were in Russell-square." He
had not much confidence in the measures which the Go-
vernment would propose for Ireland. They reminded him
of a passage which he had lately read in a letter of Crom-
well's. He wanted to get some law reforms, and he
used these words—" There is mention in the last part
of your instructions of your purpose to do many good
things. I hope you will not be like the gentleman who
made his last will, and set down a great number of men
who were to receive benefits from him, and there was
no sum at the latter end." So with regard to those
measures of the Government, they seemed to have " no
sum at the latter end."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
I hey proposed to do many good things, and set down
the names of the people of Ireland who were to receive
benefits from them, but they had " no sum
at the latter end."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
He looked upon the Landlord and Tenant Commission as
all moonshine, and he was never more convinced of it
than when he heard the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government giving his cordial approbation
to what had been said by the Right Hon. Member for
Rochdale, on the subject. The Right Hon. Baronet
seemed to have acquired on a sudden a very great re-
e
wlbts
hpyheeel
%victisehtrßpre.ef okrGgisn:
eiti
GISBORNE
gnlhvßhte
eHytonoooßdHpunei
Ntond.
thlnoiEiaot .
ootanGngssb.ai
reeti
ea Gentleman,ienfht
Gentleman.
taamihGsit,
that,.
hedaan lHoal
.wsatni
aonnhynintdGeo.
onwoFnniheerte.lei Gentleman. He re-
collected on one occasion during the last session when
d
the Hon. Gentleman was speaking uponreLenonui
fmdss
one."—(Laughter.)
saeLtdttohns
amihett
uoehi egfisoemhehnrawstedttemsoorttr. subject,stage
whispers
and said that he agreed with another Hon. Gentleman.
Sir R. PEEL—I did not say what you attribute to me.
he firmly believed that they were the exact words used
de-
clared its intention of upholding the Irish Church Esta-
bblaitsehmonenstindHe,is
r
for Marylebone had stated the other evening, in the de-
clare war, but he considered that this declaration on the
part of the Government of maintaining the Irish Church
Establishment, was equivalent to a declaration of war
against Ireland, It was a great evil, which they could

not deal with 'unless by abating it. He was convinced
that there would be no peace in Ireland without the re-
Moiial of the Church Establishment, The Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite said that they should cherish it as
the apple of their eye; but he would say, in Scriptural
language, "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out."
--(Cheers and laughter.) That was the mode in which
they should deal with the Irish Church. He would
make peace in thi> way—that no more bishops and
deans should be created, and that, upon the death of
every Irish bishop, a regiment should be withdrawn,
and a battalion upon the death of every dean.—(Much
laughter and cheering.) There would be then a simul-
taneous diminution in the army and the Church, which
he had no doubt would contribute much to the pacifica-
tion of Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned
Solicitor-General, in his speech last night, said that
there was a great deal of difference between fundamental
laws and other laws. That he considered to be a most
dangerous doctrine. One of the grounds of their con-
, stitutional security was That there was no limit in
changing the laws of the Constitution. They had
the pawer, if they pleased, with the concurrence
of the three branches of the Legislature, of turning the
monarchy into a republic.—(Hear.) That was their
great safeguard, and when the nation wished for a
change they would not be prevented from making it by
any Act of Parliament which the Solicitor-General might
consider fundamental. The real ground upon which he
supported the motion was not owing to any misconduct
in administration on the part of her Majesty's Go-
vernment, but because, in spite of the good intentions of
the Government—in spite of their carrying them out
fairly, and according to the spirit and principle of the
law, he saw a s:ato of things established in Ireland
which this House ought not to sanction ; and his second
reason was, that he was convinced the measures which
the Government proposed were too trifling to produce
any benefical effect, because there was "no sum at the
end of them"—(Cheers)—and he considered their de-
termination of maintaining the Protestant Church iu Ire-
land was tantamount to a permanent war against the

Irish people.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he quite agreed with
the lion. Gentleman who had last spoken, that Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite had made no progress in their attack
upon her Majesty's Government, and he believed that
his opinion would be sympathised in by the country
at large.—(Hear, hear,\ and cheers.) It had been his
lot, since he had been in Parliament, sometimes,
but always with reluctance, to vote against
her Majesty's Government ; but never did he remem-
ber to have given a vote more sincerely in their favour
than he would now give in approval of the fairness and
wisdom with which they had conducted the recent af-
fairs in Ireland.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.)
He did not care how long that debate might interrupt
the business of the House, for he believed that the longer
it continued the stronger would be the position which the
Government would occupy in the opinion of this country.
—(Hear, hear from the Ministerial benches.) The Right
lion. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh had alluded
to the question of the Irish Church. As an individual
he would be content to limit the duration of the Irish
Church to the period when Hon. Gentlemen on the
other side of the House had agreed what they would do
with it.—(Laughter.) Some Honourable Members in-
tended to transfer it to another party, others were for
cutting it in two ; some were for paring it down, others
for cutting it up.—(Laughter.) One Hon. Member pro-
posed, that at the demise of every bishop, they should
remove a regiment, and of every dean, a battalion.—
(Laughter.) One Hon. Gentleman had asked her Ma-
jesty's Government to look at the question at large,
and in order to do so he most cautiously
avoided entering into any detail himself.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh,
stated certain grounds on which he said the Established
Church ought not to be rested. It ought not to be
rested, he said, on quotations from Hansard, from old
books, or from Acts of Parliament. He (Mr. S. O'Brien)
quite agreed that unless they could make out a stronger
case for the Established Church in Ireland than could be
made from what Roman Catholic Bishops had said,
they could not go to sea in such a boat. It was not ac-
cording to the spirit of our legislation to exact oaths
from any class of persons ; and we had no knowledge '
of any ecclesiastical discipline by which Dr. Doyle, or
any other Roman Catholic Bishop, was able in this
matter to bind his successor.--(Hear, hear, from the Op-
position.) Unless they could put the case of the Church
of Ireland upon higher grounds, they would make out a
very bad case indeed. The question was, what should
they substitute for the Church if they destroyed it, and
could they hope to introduce a better state of things?
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) had entered
into a long, historical disquisition concerning Ireland, and
he said that for 250 years the Church of Ireland had not
fulfilled its mission. Now he protested strongly against
the injustice of resting the case of the Irish Church on
the period of 250 years; they must go back to the fifth cen-
tury—the introduction of Christianity into that country.
Let them look also at the bearing of the middle of the 12th
century upon the destinies of Ireland, when all the ills
of Ireland, inherent dissensions, lawless passions, lust of
unjust and ecclesiastical tyranny, combined together to
produce, in unhappy union, the bull of Adrian, the in-
vasion of Henry, the landing of Strongbow, and the
subjugation of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He would next
speak on a subject which he considered had been
almost untouched by any Hon. Gentleman on that side
who had yet spoken in the course of the debate. He
meant the real, practical, every-day grievances,
sorrows, and deprivations of the poorer classes
of the Irish people—and in speaking of the poor
of Ireland, he begged to be understood as alluding
to the frieze coats—not to the men of broad cloth.
The first of those evils to which he would call
attention, and which he had.witlessed in his part of Ire-
land—Clare and Limerick—was the poor-law. This evil
consisted in the inequality of the rate as levied upon the
poor collier and the consequent difficulty of collecting
it. If one half the attention had been paid to the Irish
poor- law which had been bestowed upon the Arms Bill
—(Cheers from the Opposition)— by Hou. Gentlemen
on the Opposition side of the House—(Derisive cheers
from the Ministerial benches)—much good would have
been effected. The next-grievance of Ireland was the
state of the medical charities there. That was a sub-

ject which demanded their most earnest and immediate
consideration. The third evil was the progress of the
Board of Public Works which he was sorry to say had
been curtailed; and lastly, the exactions under the name
of tolls, to whitth the peasantry were subjected in
bringing their commodities to market, closed the list
of grievances which the poor of Ireland had to endure
Those were evils which, from his own experience, he
knew, to press heavily upon the frieze coats of Ireland.
As for the miserable Whigs, the peasantry of Ireland
cared nothing for them. The only way in which they
(the Whigs) had interested the poor of Ireland, was
by letting convicts out of prison, when they were in
office. Their Lord Lieutenant had inflicted more mis-
chief on that country than any other individual that had
ever held office there.—(Marked signs of disapprobation
from the Opposition, which were accompanied by groans.
The Marquis of Normanby was sitting at the time on
the benches appropriated to Members of the House of
Lards.) The conduct of that Viceroy showed that his
sole object was to court a ridiculous, ostentatious, and
fleeting popularity.—(Groans from the Opposition.)
He had never known any man act so badly—so profli-
gately.—(Loud cries of" Oh, oh," from the Opposition.)
Yes, but the best comment upon the policy of Lord Nor-
manby was the policy pursued by his successor Lord
Fortescue. Did he follow his example ?—(Loud cries of
" Question, question.") Hon. Members might cry ques-
tion, but what was the question ? The Noble Lord, the
Member for London, might fancy, at the commencement
of the debate, that he was forwat ding the interests of his
party, but he thought that the opinions of the Noble
Lord must now be changed—not merely from
the sentiments expressed by Members on that side
of-the House, but from the speeches made by his
own supporters. The W hig ranks were com-
pletely divided and broken; they could unite
upon nothing, and the only question they hoped to agree
' Upon was Ireland ; and if the Tories were turned out
of office what could be expected from a Whig Govern-
ment ? Where were their principles? Where was
their object?. :He professed he could see none. The
Anti-Corn-law League—the Repealers—the Radicals—
all these had principles and objects; but you wretched
Whigs, flattering and coquetting, and gaining nothing for
yourselves but contempt—you are objects of public deri-
sion.—(Laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition.)
You are like certain public characters who survive their
reputations.—(Renewed laughter.) Mr. O'Connell had
told thousands of the Irish people that the British Par-
liament they could not trust. He (Mr. O'Brien)
would re-echo that sentiment, and if the Hon.
Member for Cork inclined to quote the opinions of so
humble an individual as himself, he was at perfect
liberty to do so. Mr. O'Connell had told the Irish peo-
ple to trust to themselves—that sentiment, too, he (Mr.
O'Brien) echoed. They might destroy the Church—they
might overthrow the institutions of the country—but
they wouldbe followed by a law stronger, wider, and more
enduring than all the laws of men—a law which would
tell the people of Ireland— and every people on th e
earth, that it was with nations as with individuals, that
_prosperity and happiness could be conferred by no law.
'Happiness could not be forced upon the people. The
people of every rank and class must combine to teach
-and practise order—to inculcate obedience to the laws,
and to give a high tone to public feeling. If this happy
union were effected, happiness would be achieved, but agi-
tation, however peaceful, would leave the nation where
it found it—in discontent and disorder,

Sir THOMAS WILDE wished to call the attention
of the House to the real question before the House,
which had been obscured by the risible speech of the
Hon. Gentleman who preceded him. The motion of the
Noble Lord was to form a Committee to consider the
state of Ireland. Whoever had paid any attention to
what had occurred in Ireland lately must know whether
such a motion was fitted for the present occasion or not.
He did not mean to say that Ireland presented any new
state, but surely Ireland could not be suffered to continue
in the same unfortunate condition in which it had been
so long, and it was imperative on the British Parliament
to give their most serious attention to the condition of
that country. Among the complaints of the Irish people
was one that the British Parliament were indifferent to
their real complaints and distresses. He thought the
attention that had been bestowed on the present debate
by the House generally, and by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man at the head of her Majesty's Government in parti-
cular, must repel any complaint on this score. He
thought it very wise and proper that the House should
hear what Hon. Members had to impart regarding the
condition of Ireland, and what remedies might be sug-
gested. When they considered the character of that
country in respect to her soil and resources, and the
many eminent and virtuous persons that it produced,
it was truly lamentable to reflect on her present
distressed state ; it was material to consider how that
country could be governed in a proper manner. It
might be said that the character of the people was pecu-
liar, but it was therefore the more necessary to suit the
Government to their character. A Government which
could not do that, was little worthy of support.

Whether the present Government had done see
he thought there could not. be be much doubt
about it. The union had been proposed as s
remedy for the grievances of Ireland. Had it answered
that purpose ? And if it had not, was there much di
culty in considering why it had failed ? Every
thieK
had been tried in governing Ireland by goo* faith an
justice. The union had not been accomplished fn a i,1,.
most
ner o afford satisfactio to the people.
most t
eminent patriots ofn the time at which then
union was carried denounced the measure as havieg;
been accomplished by fraud and by profligate meallh"
Ireland had not received her fair share of the bargaill.;,
Catholic Emancipation had not been granted unT..
22 years after the union. It was not conceded until it
could no longer be withheld with safety—ernancipatione
like the, union, was, to a great extent, nominal—the
tieau val.f
of the Emancipation Actconsisted in its being prat not
carried out. If the Roman Cetholics were nc:..
admitted to a full anticipation in the priv''
leges and honours which the law conferred 117.1
them, the Emancipation Bill was a dead
Both should be carried out in perfect pod fa":
In consequence of this Ireland, instead of being a "Pk.
adjunct to England, had been a constant source of.
greatest anxiety and trouble to .her, and had been nets_
self in a state of perpetual uneasiness. It was ranst Tat
terial. consid. r'ng the period which had passed hyt t as
the cm
they should take a serious review of what were
plaints which had been urged by the Irish people, ,apos
what were the causes which kept tor in that COD
and the remedies which they proposed to aPPIY to e Is ve'.,
such long continuance. Ireland had been umier the Margs of
ment of the political party who now held the l'ew„- ow
Government for a very long period, and what she Iva"-
was the result of their management. They had a
exception during the time of the Whigs,. ,u 7,
Honourable Gentlemen opposite, having thisol°2t
experience in the treatment of Ireland, ii6aris
they not to have been able to devise .ses°hen,
means to remedy the ills of the country? '' the
the Whigs were in power, and likely to leave office' to,.
light lien. Baronet acknowledged that Ireland w°_„,
be the great s:fficulty with which he would have to
Owed
tend. Full time aisd consideration had been besteio,
upon the state of Ireland ; and the present Goverillto
therefore were expected to be well prepared to legip.
in the manner which the state of Ireland required. ,00e,
two years had passed, and nothing had I;tehgel
pitiertti vOl
While in opposition, the Tory party was
in their exertions to frustrate all attempts on
the Whigs to ameliorate the condition of Irelana• that
had been a complaint against the Whigse're,t
..in
they done so little for Ireland whilst they vi
power. Now he would challenge any one to show
they had power to do more than what they did' leg
their most anxious wish was to act upon the Pr''-61cle
which the Noble Lord avowed, and on the pobcY ;bat
he announced in his speech, no one could deny rias
had been taunted because of withdrawing the aPPrOas
tion clause, but he would ask, was it withdrawn was
matter of choice on the part of the Whigs, or
oble
it withdrawn because they found they were loanf
to carry it, as they had been also unable to caril,„..fiag
other objects, by the force of the Opposition? w"„jer
that period, considering what had been the coarses
sued by the Opposition, the Whigs had shown the.feeteS
feeling towards Ireland which they had. Ilu!ali and
during the many years of her ierrow, apts tiell'oeiti
distress. The first reasonable ground for the se°,oote
of any country was general confidence in the Get eon'
ment ; and could the Irish nation feel the slight° e itan
fidence in the present Administration? The reverisudeo
the case. What were the taunts which were ° era
against the Whigs when in power, but that the,/ The
making too many concessions to the Irish peopler.,,,sion
cry of Hon. Gentlemen opposite tea.s that eeis'ere).--'
had reached its utmost limits—(Hear, and e,p'ed
and that no further concessions could be grZll_l or °'
safety to the interests of the Established Ch h'
the English nation. There was one thing whiev*Leetili/
sidered most extrordinary, and that was the 0,4110
that the Whig Government had not done all theY oat ts'
to have done for Ireland. At least two of its in fro°
lented Members had alienated theinselvestacheas
the party to which they were originally at, seele
merely because the then Whig Governmeirs
favourable to Ireland. And, unfortunately 700'
land, the only two Members of the late Whig I t GO'
tration, who had been admitted into the Ares iii'
tils
vernment, were those two who had displ%. tile
most inveterate hatred against that country. "atieltieg
present Government was first formed, great ;wow
prevailed to know how the Right Hon. 13arellee don;
act towards Ireland ; and what had beet,aolll.:
during the two years he held office, and what,,,-0,1".
present state of. Ireland ? Why Ireland eelli.l4 ot '
to be as she had been before, upon the very Yil,„""ksioe
civil war; and were they to be told after tals trio"' g the
ledgment, that the Noble Lord was wrong ill at
House to review the affairs of that countrYttly tee
policy which had been acted on, and which Was 7,ootrij
continue with respect to the government of that euteotioll
—(Hear, and cheers.) It had been said that this but
had been brought forward at a wrong time; had ill
answer to that, he should say that any one whc'f vela°,
slightest knowledge of the popular history 0... awn"
would acknowlege that there never yet was earwg!,
when a motion, such as the present, was brough,rubat sew
the House, that it was not called ill-timed- sfisotie°
the common and constant mode in which sue"
were met. Was Ireland in a state now that Ont. OA
to choose their own time ?—(Hear, g'sss_,A°-
cheers.) Were they to wait until the stream na_,% so
by? Did they not know Ireland was only in the 5w",,,, wa,
that she had been for years before, and that 410e-evil.,s;
not the slightest prospect of a cessation of tb°s'eea
The time to demand an investigation was w".., off'
country was in such a state of agitation as it nigi jtbl°
The motion was a most constitutional and Wet° re
one.—(Cheers.) The intent of the motion was ate
this House, and to ask the country, if the poliel ar
by the present Government towards Ireland that 015
proved of. He would not attempt to dent '4
motion implied censure upon the Government.
roeitij
aware that the motion would be lost by a larqoele I'lo,
but still he felt sure it was the duty of the and, S'bf
to bring conviction to Ireland, that her wantsfereete"
if in error, her errors, had been respectfully
shoal
Parliament, and that the state of the count_ry se.'o ebo
be passed over in silence, but that the idle teattses
consider and pronounce an opinion upon es. uPthe
Had they governed Ireland in such a mantle' with
cure peace ? Was the fault with Ireland If Goce;;
Government ? If it was her fault, was Illt-teefas;s4
ment capable of applying any means to correZhat
as to
How long would they require to do so ?
of time was supposed to furnish sufficient ef polletfoe
the fitness or unfitness of any given courant sale
esrrese9
Could they for ore moment believe that p; the p loos
did not show the cause which had produce,' had s; 7tee
discontent? Did that course of policy which ling be tie
failed hitherto, present any prospect of ansWese was
for the future ? lie apprehended that tbeii,i, 95000
ground whatever for it. The Government the the
persons said, that the Irish Church, was ac" Dred• doe'
of the unhappiness under which Ireland remedy
then, why did they not propose a rern
They
thing less than the disease itself ? h. •Itd to
try g
in various remedies for the IriAi Churcatlegoel
been allowed to be an evil, and if it were,Ore 00
continue how could they expect that reed 1)9 ea
to other matters, which wholly Pisthat Plea
Irish Church—how did they elect long Ael s"
would result from measures that hart sowa tbei
With the present condition of Ireland, COheeto ;1011
to suppose that measures which bad hits,o,ooo"'
without any alteration of the circumstance eo Wore'
more successful for the future ? There 'cot Gliefi
for this. He said, therefore, that the Pre' ~sopes, tas
ment were called upon to state how the,' tbe
meet those difficulties. He, for one, th°loll°StO
union between the two countries was ,_neaceaeelars.„
prosperity of both. The Government LI reSib-
they were ready for civil war rather lball they .058
If this was the case heask how lenghey SLIPIri°4
would sid t , ,s„
so maintain it ? What period of time WWl'
would Ireland remain in that condition?„,briatialli, eiele
of time did they suppose that the `-'0 tueboeellF
wbants of Great Britain would contill_e of in
to is
ar?
Ireland said, " Give us our due 00%610
in the Government. Do not keep the siltas, unstielt
the condition in which it now is, so wheteli 11,3.
the object of an Establishment. If you
__ axe e-_,.,006
cannot give us this—if you say that the 7003
stances in the union which prevent you aeon r.
us our just demands, Ireland has a riot,woo 1.01
of %00".
repeal of the union." The union ougmerity
exist than for the happiness and PodsPto forinegelnos,
Ireland said this country had professe
nership,—" You monopolise all thepe; of ourc`i; a d'of
us from all interference in the managemen to give source
We call upon you to do us justice ---_hip s do 01
share Of authority—to make the partnerre_fitee to
yoo etr;
happiness and prosperity to us. You teorshiPto ea be
and say, Rather than dissolve the pare 00,0 0 to
_h
ready for civil war." He would defy and coder sued
on the contemplation of this subject
long
conclusion that civil war would last
be ybe
circumstances. The English natiii"sat tecturiog as
for its justice and its religion. "
Europe sac be
condition of England in the eyes out of clail° fit Wee,
continuance of a civil war arising_ matt had be
those urged by Ireland. Were these , se
considered? Let them remember twat
et PisT
curred before from which the GaTvehronlghibiti.lhil pewee'
might derive a useful lesson•
she truf Ist e o°'
ptoowtheer
doisfsorleustiisotninogf the claims
as thrd:coritsv;
mote, if not imrossible. But vosa Thep rcooifitio,
respect to America ?—(Hear, hear:(41„....-thelte 004 at
vernment could not hold a higher t elate t ts
more despise their anticipations whYborovere.ol_ewneverf..da
memberment of the empire, than t,l,i,!...trary, nt tone rest
the time of the American ear. 'ertheie his wita
their expectations--descending from Anleri oft g;
from their very heavy threatening, _ folly?
vtoertnhmisent country—lostofthed
ay
w who would
othueidunn(,itrtePasPkpYeectrteoTlf Tr;113:050:ei
and what was now the tone with
___nted of
,00
Why was Catholic Emancipation grisy to teet oat itioa
he
war
—but
at eilvtilw4ts.rset.Wnoulattlione.o.
under the sanction of the Engl,i, u too tie
prodeseilouT.l74o,ilts,
would proclaim, and
on account of that nation insisting 111)`" s. end ,tp.„
tice of one nation overrunning.and 514,,31.1 its %Igo tbe...100
pdricloancoht
obfeleiservreyitnligatoEnnagwlaunrdinvvooruldd.erAlonibi:sislirosoot.s_rOlets
which was inconsistent witht!int;
rn:r,hilunthoTu
00
bf
rity of Ireland. Surely, therefore!.
_oh, ate
_hat ?
itself looked at the possibility t Su
e ontenWlatef °IV/
shouldhtheeythe p o aahlre a trthe
lstamoe
h State ,:st seri°"rti
He therefore called upon the Gave huit the coostate
thong to ,
to consider the subject. He countrf f th' o'er'
had done right in calling upon the.
rest! te, the din'
what would, in all probability, he tn,%ass sniuheiog real
of things for which the GoverntriN'.e nniO 00101
prepared, rather than consent •fe:La, ,here .s
solved. lie did not apprehend- tt!..te" Irish pvvi
desire on the part a any portion bm