The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-20 00:00:00

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.

Lord DUNCAN said an Act was passed last ses-
sion by Lord Brougham and the Government
to amend the law of bankruptcy ; by the 57th section
of that Act, the power of arresting for debt, when
the amount was less than 201, was abolished from the
date of the passing of the Act, 9th August, 1844. The
words "except for debts now in subsistence" were,
it was supposed, accidentally omitted from the clause.
In consequence of this omission, twelve hundred
tradesmen in Bath had been gredtly inconvenienced
by those who owed them debts contracted before that
date refusing to pay them. The question he had to
ask was, whether it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to introduce any measure after Easter to relieve
those unfortunate persons from the hardships they
were suffering, in consequence of the neglect of the
Crown lawyers ?
Sir J. GRAHAM condoled very sincerely with
the Noble Lord under the circumstances in which
his constituents were placed ; however he might state
that he was not aware of any general inconvenience
that had arisen from the measure passed last year. He
only knew it had had this effect; that though, before it
passed, the gaols 3f the country were crowded with
a large number of debtors in a hopeless state
of captivity, the prisons were no longer crowded
with these hopeless individuals. Ile wis not
prepared to recommend any material alteration in the
Bill alluded to by the Noble Lord.

Lord DUNCAN, seeing the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Solicitor-General in his place, begged leave
to call to his recollection that when he (Lord
Duncan) waited upon him with a deputation on
this subject a few days ago, he (the Solicitor-
General) stated that he was perfectly aware that this
Bill had caused great inconvenience to the tradesmen
of this country. Now he begged leave to ask whether
he still remained of the same opinion ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought he ought
not to answer the question of the Noble Lord. It
was not fair for the Noble Lord to state what had
passed during his interview with the deputation. He
did not exactly recollect what expressions he did use,
but, if he remembered rightly, he believed he
stated that he had understood very great inconveni-
ence had resulted to tradesmen from this Bill ;

and he asked the deputation whether they, as prac-
tical men, were prepared to suggest any remedy. He
thought the Noble Lord would do him the justice to
say that none of them could suggest any, although
he threw out many which did not appear to meet
their views.

The subject then dropped.
SLAVERY AND TIIE PRESIDENT'S
MESSAGE.

Mr. ALDAM begged to ask the Right Honourable
Gentleman the First Minister of the Crown, a ques-
tion of which he had given him notice, and which re-
lated to a statement that appeared in the laa Message
of the American President of State. The statement
related to the treatment of liberated slaves in the
British colonies, and insinuated that they were no
hptter than when jr their former etate of slavery.
The President declared that when they were taken to
the British colonies they had to serve an
apprenticeship, during which they were treated, if
possible with Tore severity than when they were
staves. Now, he wished to 'know whether the Presi-
dent of the United States of America was correctly,
informed when he made the statement that the condi-
tion of the liberated African in the British colonies
was no better than Lavery ?
Sir R. PEEL said be was glad the Ilion. Member
had given him notice of this important question. It
was lath& to be regretted that the President
of the United States of America should send
over a formal message upon the subject of
neroeo who were intended to be reTioyeci fmg

state of slavery to comparative freedom, at a great ex-
pense to this country, without first ascertaining what
was the real position of the British colonies. He
must also say, that if the President of the United
States should think it expedient to appoint a Commis-
sion for the purpose of going to the West Indian
colonies of her Majesty, to ascertain precisely the con-
dition in which those who had been slaves are now,
that every disposition would be shown on the part of
her Majesty's Government to facilitate the inquiry of
that Commission, and to enable the President and Go-
vernment of the United States of America to present
to their own country the fullest and most accurate
account of the condition of the negroes in the West
India colonies. The message to which the Hon.
Gentleman had referred announced that when a cap-
ture took place of negroes intended for slavery, they
were sent to the West Indian colonies, where they had
to serve an apprenticeship for a term of years, during
which they were treated with the same se-
verity as when they were in a state of slavery. Now it
was a well known fact that the state of apprenticeship had
long ago been altogether abolished in the West Indies.
The negro, whether going there voluntarily as a free
African, or sent there as a captured negro, was
placed in a state of apprenticeship. In whatever
capacity he went, he was perfectly free and enti-
tled to all the rights of freemen. Perhaps he
might be permitted to state what was the course
pursued by the British Government with respect to
negroes captured by the cruisers of this country. If
captured on the coast of Africa they were generally
sent to Sierra Leone, and when there they were at
perfect liberty to determine whether they would go
to our West Indian colonies, or whether they would
return to the place from which they had been taken ;
there was in that respect no compulsion. The treaty
with Spain was to this effect :—ln the event of the
capture of a Spanish vessel by a British cruiser,
the slaves so captured were to be delivered
up to the country to which the capturing
cruiser belonged. This country had a vessel at the
Havannah which received the slaves generally
captured in the neighbourhood of Cuba. It
was certainly true that every individual slave
was not sent to Africa ; for it would be quite
impossible to provide the means of conveyance for
them. They were, in fact, sent to our 'West
Indian colonies ; but they were under no com-
pulsion whatever as to the labour which
they undertook, nor were they placed in
a state of apprenticeship. There were persons
there who instructed them as to the con-
tracts into which they might enter ; but whether
they should enter into those contracts or not, was left
entirely to their own option. Now it was possible
that the mistake of the American President
had arisen from this circumstance. Our treaty
with Spain was entered into in 1835 ; and at
that time the state of apprenticeship did exist,
and the provisions of the treaty were that the captured
negro, on being sent to a British colony, should be
placed on the same footing as an apprentice. But
since 1835 the state of apprenticeship had al-
together ceased—(Hear, hear)—and the cap-
tured negro, on arriving at our West Indian
colonies, was in the condition of a free man.—
(Hear, hear.) In addition to the treaty with Spain,
there was one with Brazil and another with Portu-
gal. By the treaty with Brazil it was provided that
the captured slaves should be delivered up in the
ports of the country near which they were cap-
tured. There' was a difference between the treaty
with Brazil and that with Portugal. It was the
manifest intention of the treaty with Brazil that the
captured slave should become a free man. But
Brazil insisted on keeping the captured negro in a
state of slavery, and declined to fulfil the treaty en-
tered into with this country with respect to the
future disposal of slaves. Such being the case, the
Government of this country signified to the Govern-
ment of Brazil that the slaves which were cap-
tured should not, in future, be delivered
up unless Brazil consented to place them in a state of
freedom.—(Hear, hear.) And when slaves had been
captured near Rio Janeiro by the cruisers of this
country, instead of being sent to Brazil, they were
taken to the West Indies, it being found impractica-
ble to send them back to Africa. He must again ex-
press his regret that this subject should have been
noticed in the Message of the President of the United
States.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the allega-
tion that both the subjects of the United States and
those of this country were concerned in carrying on
the slave trade, that was a subject for serious conside-
ration. He was not prepared to deny the fact.
He hoped that if the law did not reach this applica-
tion of British capital, the Legislature would be pre-
pared to apply a remedy.—(Hear, hear.)
In answer to a question by Sir D. NORREYS,
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was not the intention of Go-
vernment to propose any measure with regard to medi-
cal charities in Ireland, nor to propose any measure
with regard to the railway system in Ireland.
THE BOARD OF TR ADE—RAILWAY DE
PARTMENT.

Mr. B. DENNISON said he wished to put a question
to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade. He wished to know whether the rail-
way department of the Board of Trade, or some one of
its officers, had not, with a view to a favourable report,
negotiated between various companies projecting rail-
ways between London and York, for the purpose of in-
ducing them to make concessions to each other, but with-
out any invitation, or even any intimation being made to
the London and York Railway Company to take any
part in such negotiations ? Whether the Cambridge and
London and Direct Northern Company were not
invited and did not attend at the Board of
Trade in the week previous to the publication of the
Gazette of Tuesday, the 11th of March, with reference
to a condition of their being favourably reported upon?
Whether the Board of Trade had not negotiated with
the Newark and Sleaford Company, or suggested nego-
tiations, with a view to require its pledge, that in the
next year it will apply to Parliament for leave to make a
railroad from Newark to Sleaford, to join the Cambridge
and Lincoln line ? Whether such a course of proceed-
ing on the part of the Railway Department of the
Board of Trade was not, in the opinion of the Vice.
President, exceeding the powers recommended to be
delegated to that department by the Select Committee on
Railways, as set forth in their Fifth Report of 1844?
Sir G. CLERK said it was not surprising that the
House should express its surprise at the last question of
the llon. Gentleman, but the answers which he would give
to the other questions would embody the answer to the
fourth. He begged to state most distinctly, that no ne-
gotiations of any kind whatever had taken place be-
tween the Board of Trade and the promoters of the
Direct Northern and the Cambridge and Lincoln Rail-
way Company—that no facilities were given to them
to make any statements they wished to lay before
the Board of Trade that were not equally
given to his Hon. Friend and the promoters of the Lon-
don and York line. With regard to the second question,
all that had occurred was this :—On Saturday afternoon,
after the Gazette was published, some person connected
with the London and York Railway had called at the
office of the Board of Trade, and stated that a coalition
had taken place between the promoters of the Direct
Northern and the Cambridge and Lincoln line, and he
stated that a communication to that effect would be sent
to the Board of Trade on Monday morning. That com-
munication was made, but at that time the Board of
Trade had no knowledge whatever of any intention of
coalition. With regard to the third question, he begged
to state that there was no negotiation going on respect-
ing the introduction of a Bill next year for a line be-
tween Newark and Sleaford, nor had any such been ever
contemplated by the Board of Trade. The Hon. Gen-
tleman would find that the Board of Trade had not ex-
ceeded the instructions laid down for their guidance ; and
at the proper time it would be found, on a reference to
this matter, that they had acted in full accordance with
those instructions.
Lord HOWICK said that an answer had not now
been given to the most important question which had
been put to the Right Hon. Baronet. He (Lord Howick)
would therefore wish to know whether a coalition had
not been suggested. He wished to know whether such a
suggestion had not been thrown out by the Board of
Trade to the two railway companies?
Sir GEO. CLERK—He had intended in his answer to
the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire to
intimate his assurance that the desire for such a coali-
tion had not emanated from the Board of Trade.
Lord HOWICK said his question was still unan-
swered. He wished to know whether the suggestion of
that coalition had not been given to the comp tnies, be-
cause such an intimation from such an authority was
sure to be attended to.

Sir G. CLERK said that to the best of his belief no
such intimation had been given to those Companies by
the Board of Trade.
In answer to an HoN. MEMBER,
Sir G. CLERK said that the House should have an
opportunity of seeing that the Board of Trade had acted
independently of any private interest.
Mr. HORSMAN wished to know;whether there would
be any objection that the letter written by Mr. Lefevre
to the Secretary of the Treasury, and his answers
thereto, should be laid upon the table.
Sir G. CLERK said that if the Hon. Member referred
to the Minute of the Board of Trade of the 6th of
August, which had been laid upon the table of the
House, he would find there all the information relative
to the oorrespondenc with the Treasury.
Mr. lIORSMAN said, that all he had asked was,
whether there was any objection to lay the letters on the
table of the House,

Sir G, CLERK said he wonld make an inquiry on the
subject, and answer the question to-morrow.

NEW ZEALAND.

Mr. G. W. HOPE laid on oP the House cer-
tain papers with respect to New Zealand.
Mr. C. BULLER understood that the Government
limited the papers from the Colonial-office to the period
of the present session.

Mr. G. W. HOPE said the whole correspondence was
Wore the House, and if any of the papers were required
he had no objection to produce them.

CAPTAIN WARNER.

Lord INGESTRE, in answer to a que,tion
from Mr. Somes, with respect to the invention
of Captain Warner, said, that he had re-
ceived a letter from that gentleman, in which he stated
that with respect to his discovery he had no desire that
any direct application should be made for a further com-
mission, as they led him to nothing but disappointment.
He was willing to abide by the challenge that tr,d been
given him, and to demonstrate q his own• expense
the efficac' of 14-4 to hliu cLos4 Ingett:v),

the Master of the Ordnance, the Prime gitcir'
the Commander-in. Chief if it should be wisn,-'011;
no others.—(Laughter.) his only desire was, t's ty
ecfficacy of his powers might be made known ts
•cg,
And he would then leave it to the% tcottbs;
• ether an invention that would blow up anY •tsio
attempted to invade such an island as Grl,eatt -0510'
would not be of service to the Government air's ebOicb be
That was the substance of the letter, art of w-
had read, and, therefore, there was no, part
°f hi 5,004
lhirg further on the subject. But while he was ,utiltile•
e would just take the liberty of asking the Pieter;
Baronet what had become of the two or three co'
thata had been addressed to him on this subject 11.„„tiott
tin Warner ? He hoped there would be no
obr
to lay them on the table frosi
letters
Sir R, PEEL said that. he had received nn
Captain Warner which he could have the lost °lj ble
Do
trorilearidbefore.the House ; and, therefore, if rlnscobsle
had given him notice of it, he would at ° ~ss oc:
made the letters official, for he believed thel,eb.e bed
ish of any department to them • but
suppress Warner
heard that one or two letters from Captain "
bcen Mislaid.—(lTear, hear ) ago
Lord INGESTRE said that the letters he 1111.1.1irsr.
were those which were of importance to CePtAID
ner,.and in some measure affected his character. the
Sir R. PEEL said it was not his fault astir there
letters had not been laid upon the table ; but ad.
were any to be found they should he brought 1.1,,,,w-rneii
long
C. NAPIER wished to know did Captain ;'
Lord
range" define any distance 7—(Latlghter.' OWll°
INGESTRE understood that Captain $t ad°.
would undertake that he could destroy a si"r
tance of five miles. night 11°n.
Sir C. NAPIER then would hope that the
Baronet would permit Captain Warner to trY
rimc:nt, at his own expense, behind the Geodwiell cap
Sir tain
it. R. PEEL had no doubt but that ',Lo tile
ws
Warner did intend to make the experiment 00
expense he would get permission to do an
Board of Ordnance.—(Laughter.) In fact, there 5,40
scarce a week passed that he did not receive sortsletters
si
parties propong destructive missiles of all &ft'
(Laughter)—and at various amounts, from 200,01
to 50/.—(Lauothter.) •
relita' c°^
The motion that the House do then g° 113 OrB
mittee on the Customs' Duties Bill was then
the
which ,t
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES understood thll! r-wfita
present stage of the measure he could not bring 1°.014
; tbe
hism motion on the subject of basket rods. Belo ley of ••-,,
Member, and not well acquainted with the rtivir",;
ilouse, he had thought that he might doily. livit ibe
however, more the alteration in the Btse
proper time.

PENANG SUGAR. poi°
Mr. HORSMAN, seeing the Noble Lord °Phet'ec
(Lord Jocelyn) in his place, wished to ask him Presslls
any measures had beea adopted for placing of the
sugar on the same footing as sugar the growlihreeta
East Indies ? The sugar growers °f SO
°
were subjected to very great hardshP:importr
years since an Act had passed authorising th.,! s, at the.
tion of sugar, the produce of 'the East Inatheo
lowest rate of duty. The planters of Penang the twit
induced to invest a large amount of capital ot tberil•
vation of sugar in consequence, imagining t. that Ice
sugar would admitted at the same rate, but rods"
the PRepte-
vilege had hitherto been confined to sugars
of the territories of the East India Corne,ttrou°l2
sentations had been made to the Board of Prraii
the subject, and the heads of that departineu,r_Geee 0
mised to send out instructions to the Goveraglo hut
of India on the subject. This was a Yesr
yet, the merchants of Penang had received n° the elerr:i
cation on the subject. A deputation fr°l2l the Pto
chants and planters of Penang had waited on wee.%
of Trade, and on the Board of Controul, in reifedt„:se
the subject. They had been graciously
had been dismissed with assurances alai,' wish,'" of
ee•
tbeirlto
should be taken into consideration. Now' 'ereblintstbe
ask the Noble Lord if the case of the nt.oo of .ect
Penang had been taken into the considern't'be sa,b.lo.
Board of Control, and if any instructions °n of I"' he
had been transmitted to the Governor-Gena ()Pear
Lord JOCELYN said that on comity'. '„verisor.,, of
had found the draft of a dispatch to the
tbQ
nett]. in Council, strongly recommending,h; ecertheich,
the merchants and planters of Pena,„ 0 "cirgiras
tion of the Government of Bengal. ''Tbe -beg s'-oet.
were set up were, as the Hon. Gentleman f those hieh
permission to introduce sugar the produn:otage, the
Clements into that country, on the same Witl'A• in
other territories of British India en.Kew reeeil-1—
is
last few days a communication had been Geier
which it was stated that the Governor-L-oeurie
Council had taken into consideration therefer tro•
tion of the Home Government, and be , t the 'lleer
matter to the Governor of Penang, to prerliartber-
duction of sugar of foreign grovvth. I'l°
munication had been received. 010
CUSTOMS' ACT. the Cu't
The House then went into Committee on
Act. Mr. Greene in the chair. or'
On the article of grease being read, -oe to het
Mr. BRA MSTON said it was his read,,
of the oie
that the article of grease should be taken en hij rid
of duties to be repealed, and that the dutY sh°be con it
as at present. He would move that gretlety•free,;eo6
from the tariff ; Ist cause, if it were let pr et Pi"
would injure the protection which the farmer
enjoyed for his butter.—(A laugh.) dont Cer
Sir JOHN TYRRELL seconded the in
Fit WO. le
rtic
Sir GEORGE CLERIC felt sure the Itigiisthe g°.
demists did not understand the nature and ilia
" grease." It was a thing mixed with tor, froto
ther unfit for human food.—(lronical obe.Aeribe 0;„ used
Opposition Ix nches.) The importation `"nieck ;lee
to the farmer, for such grease wai ~re.. 11 to Preicerf
in the dressing of sheep, in ere. thee ~,ers
them from the injurious influences of the we,aouse
precaution would be taken by the Custom "t
hat cc° oe
that no other grease should come in but the 01100
plated by the tariff.—(" Hear, hear, from oPreao
don.) He could not -tell what Hon. geM ht ibexe
meant by their cheers, for which he thoug
Dee:
no good reason. root 6-4 of
Mr. WARD said that the Right Hoo.fadie Wet,' ea
to have altogether mistaken the nature 01 " nclice-hting
his llon. Friends on that side of the llouse,s Piro
to argue quite unconscious of their tendeucla'tee ibe
could be more delightful than the exPls,ll essanieb,
Right Hon. Baronet. He (Sir G. Clerk) ibiegilovoci et
House,with the greatest earnestness, that tbe P
could by any possibility be converted intnbeer.) be
the poor man would be admitted.--01Phr'eggejtoet°001'
one connected with land, he (Mr. Writ/flop. P., were,
spared such advocacy as that of the sir)." if the; pea
When Hon. Members treated Engialld hedersbos
talking of a beleaguered town, he could we'nuel Per to
them, and though he might ondemn• he!".e 01980',
admire their boldness, bute when heir)',
these miserable dirty monopolies--'O-00•
,03,'"dis.
—he felt thoroughly disgusted at such ni erh(Neeoble
opposition. The ancient feudal barons laid
trots under contribution. There was sld Dow I-0N
in that; but the conduct of those who reo'
sent the sneak" agricultural interest, rese"ool
an ",area—the most contemptible a"
dern civilisation,—(Hear, and cheers.)
Mr. BORTHWICK said the
Members on his side of the House toThicti;lienillii?let!t4):ll;i
duty on those articles would bring bii
tempt, and he hoped those sweet little chetahs(eirrf,_oe
in the gallery above, would, like little birds, proti'd
sentiments to the country.—(Great laughten'oisition„'eeld
could be more unreasonable than such °Pr who
there was not a single farmer in the country f the
support the Hon. Member in Isis motion., effect ° the
Sir JOHN TYRRELL said the whoLs.urieus t%pf
proposed change in the tariff would be 011 h to 40ot
agricultural interest: but he did not w suovol sobs
PrOtla
who
their attention with frivolous discussions, V.lOll, ge bid%
divide the House on this occasion. The speech fierY
for Evesham had, however, fired of the stseht lost
he intended to discharge the other night tin Chefte the
but this " explosion in his rear" did n°o3o,;er rot,
disturb him.—(Great laughter.) The Hon a 00015
address had then congratulated the countrY;,,, the sr-.
that pig iron had risen to 16/. a ton, but 1,!"..5g. !newt")
Hon. Baronet wished to lower the price or_la'i or
(Laughter.) If pig iron had risen, pig Till, this otor
reduced, and he confessed he did not thh; lot coil
fair result. But there was now a rnue"..,4paogther°
Lion for conservative articles generally.,_Ll es 00 .r.
wouldld not inflict a speedh upon the esatttehiel
be other opportunities of discussing 1 Da one r foe
Mr. BRIGHT said, that while the 11('"" gonheverr,
spoken in a tone of lamentation, the 11°°.the G° sieo
Evesham (Mr. Borthwick) had come to be tro 1.10
rnent's assistance, with an earnestness whiebter•lotelf
would be fully appreciated by them.--(L$ "lit so
confessed there was nothing which be th°oll-feire
to bring the agricultural interest into
so i;tippelt ries
arguments that were advanced by it he 0:14,1,103
(Hear, hear.) In another place, to which
perhaps be allowed to allude, one noble 1 ,tioltreiyiduol!„eis
arrogated to himself the title of a coronet.,,"_ Geetlierlioee
and in this House, among other Ilonouranieb the 1,101
they had one who came forward to represen' ,rictll ob-
•
interest.—(Laughter.) He thought that;nthteer:s&O,llie
supporters greatly mistook their own .7. Thei-.400.
jetting to the importation of a little buttetr. gee.
other persons having cupboards besides nu_ hisel_..fere
ber for Essex, and unlike him there wer: riThe intee.'fries
but little to put into them. Why cation, • ;,bef
with the cupboards of the poorer poPnloseess? de 01
the few comforts they might otherwise p to o_
might rely upon it that without an inerectir;verlie%igb!
would soon have the miseries and the ,u meatieso
an increased pauperisHar, beneee„ricol;
Hon. Baronet at the head of the ‘-": r the tejoil b.
always been looked upon as the friend Go
pest
turists. They had placed him in the Pr°_, bee Pi'
then occupied, and a little advice fr7o Aio to
therefore be expected to do svona
induce 000,1; die)
If he would but take himself, and „.1, 13righve to.
take a step in the right dirt ction, he (I`l`..si.etcoluee 01$
thought that on all those questions they ,ableP thej
satisfactory conclusion—to a result cre,rosted
House and pleasing to the country. Ile, ows?
Hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. 11".' res°'
t P v ft)t
allow the question to go on vviteou
toonu.i tbs
amendment.
Mr. M. MILNES said that it was not side
Hon. Members on that (the Conservative) „cot;
House to reprove Members on the otlwr f""ol„asiniogeO
brought forward questions referring to in, rerch
ing interests, He did not see that lies hotnuoh wlarferee
because he had brought forward a rnattehrieh iOeip tej
supposed he knew something, and ‘," 0105 eee
with the labour of some thousands 0!- P‘sbiect
growing districts. The Hon. Member srYit.y., bY,lerg
to be to gain some small degree of pollnin fees
ing obloquy on Hon. Gentlemen, wbc'se /11° 1 iirtiv
w" tlO
pure as own.
Mr. AhisGLIONBY thought that instead °tre:osioe
the resolutions in this Bill, they were p 0..,/
tev
aA
settlement of the question by their pers°l7teci ieerl
He trotted that Hon. Members who sePP°„;co g
cultural interest would concede the admit)*

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