The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, AUGUST 2 1844.

AMIPEKIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 1.

Their Lordships mat at Five o'clock.
Lord CAMPBELL called the attention of their Lord-
ships to certain amendments made in the House of Com-
mons upon the Common Law Process Bill, and gave
notice that he would move to make these amendments
the subject of a conference.
The Insolvent Debtors Bill was read a third time and
passed.

managing sayings' banks, and if the result showed that
they cou:d be conducted at a less expense than that at
which they appeared to be managed, whether he would
reconsider the amount of allowance to be made to the
trustees?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should first like to see how the measure worked. He
would not then object to make the inquiry to which the
Hon. Gentleman referred.
The Bill was then passed.
MARRIAGES (IRELAND) BILL

On the motion that this-Bill be committed.
Colonel RAWDON said he acknowledged this mea-
sure as' a remedial measure, but he thought the Go-
vernment brought it in more as a matter of expediency
than as a matter of right. It should have been brought
in at an earlier period of the session. On the part of the
Presbyterians of Ireland, he would say that no gratitude
was due to the Government for this measure.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Bill was under the
consideration of the Government for a long time. It had
been submitted to a Committee of the House of Lords,
composed of several learned personages in that House.
It was true the Bill was delayed for a long time, but
that was owing to communications which had taken place
with the Presbyterians, and he had hoped, until he heard
the lion. Gentleman, that the Bill was most satisfactory
to the Presbyterians.—(Hear, hear.) As to the grati-
tude which the lion. Gentleman talked of, the Govern-
ment wanted the gratitude of no party. They wished
merely
parties._
to satisfy the reasonable wants and desires of all

Mr. BOUVERIE was glad that this Bill was intro-
&iced, which he thought was a just one ; but he thought
that a system of registration ought to be combined
with it.

Mr. SHAW did not think the Presbyterians had a
right to complain.—(Hear, hear.) If any party objected
to the Bill, it should hare been the Established Church ;
but they did not object, because they thought the, mea-
sure just.

Lerd JOHN RUSSELL was very glad that a Bill of
this kind was introduced, but he did not think it was
right that this Bill, and other important measures,
should be delayed till a late period in the session, and
that the Government should then throw the responsibi-
lity of rejecting them on the House of Commons. In
consequence of introducing Bills at so late a period, the
House of Commons would only have to register the
edicts of the House of Lords. It would have to give a
form and sanction to those measures which the Crown
required, but that part of the Constitution which en-
joined on the House of Commons the duty of consider-
ing measures would appear to be abrogated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
surprised at what had fallen from the Noble Lord, who
must be well acquainted with the mode in which public
business was conducted. Surely the Noble Lord would
not contend that this Bill and other Bills should receive
the fullest consideration from those who were to be af-
fected by it, and from both Houses of Parliament. If
such a principle were once recognised it would almost
put an end to all deliberative legislation.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he only complained that the
House was put to the alternative of rejecting a Bill good
and useful in itself, or passing it without giving time for
due deliberation.

The House then went into Committee, Mr. GRIENE
Ln the Chair.

Clauses from 1 to 4 inclusive were agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 10 inclusive were agreed to.
Clauses from 11 to 82 were agreed to, with some
verbal amendments.

The remaining clauses were then agreed to.
The schedules were agreed to, and the House resumed.
It was ordered to be reported to-morrow, and to be
read a third time on Saturday. [Although the House
did not formally adjourn, there was a cessation of busi-
ness for half an hour after, the Marriages (Ireland) Bill
had been disposed of. The Speaker resumed the chair
at a quarter before five o'clock.]
ARTS-UNION BILL.
_ .

The report of the Arts-Union Bill brought up,
and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-
mnrrow.

CHARITABLE DONATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, the House
resolved into Committee on the Charitable Donations
and Bequests (Ireland) Bill, for the purpose of intro-
ducing the money clauses. The clauses were intro-
duced, and the House resumed.
POOR LAW RETURNS.
Captain PECHELL asked when certain returns, for
which he had moved, on the subject of out-door relief,
would be ready, and also when certain returns as to
the number of unions would be laid on the table.
Mr. M. SUTTON replied that the Poor-law Com-
missioners had issued circulars to the different unions
for the returns of out-door relief, but that not more than
one-half of those returns had as yet been completed.
With regard to the other returns he' believed the same
difficulty existed, and he could not state when he should
be enabled to lay them on the table.
Captain PECHELL could not understand how there
could be any difficulty in preparing the returns relative
to the number of unions._

PETITIONS.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition-from Mr.
Young, Mr. Landseer, and other artists, praying for an
alteration in the Art-Unions Bill ; also a petition from
the prisoners for debt in the Queen's Prison in favour of
the Insolvent Debtors Bill.
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from Lieute-
nant Green, complaining that he bad not received any
remuneration from Government for certain improve-
ments, which he had introduced into naval architecture.
SOLITEI-SEA. COMPANY'S BILL.

The South• Sea Company's Bill was read a third time
and passed.
The Fisheries (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and
passed.

what might be the intentions of the Gorernment on that
subject. It would be the duty of himself and
his colleagues to watch the experiment, and if it turned
out as he hoped and was anxious it should, he thought
it would be extended to Ireland.
BAPTIST MISSIONARIES.
Mr. V. SMITH wished to put a question on the sub-
ject or the treatment which it was alleged a Baptist
missionary had received in the island of Bermuda (as we
understood). It bad been stated that a clergyman named
Davies had thought proper to disturb the congregation
of this Baptist missionary, and had caused his followers
to be brought before a magistrate who had committed
them to prison. He wished to know if the Government
had taken any step; to investigate the matter?
Mr. G. W. HOPE said that as yet no authentic ac-
counts had been received from the colony on the subject.
STEAM PJWER IN THE NAVY.

Mr. MORE O'FERRAL moved for a return of the
amount of horse-power ordered for her Majesty's
steam-vessels, between the Ist day of September, 1841,
and the Ist day of July, 1844.—Ordered.
CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose to move the order
of the day for going into Committee on the Chari-
table Donations and Bequests (Ireland) Bill, and said
that after having so fully opened this question
the other evening, he was very unwilling
to trespass on the attention of the House, and yet there
were two or three amendments which he was anxious to
explain to the House, as having been introduced into the
Bill by her Majesty's Government. In the first place, he
had to state that it was the intention of the Government
to insert words in the Bill by which more than one
secretrary could be appointed to the Board of Cha-
ritable Bequests Commission in Dublin. Considering
the vast amount of Roman Catholic charities which
would come under the consideration of that board,
it had been held to be expedient that more than
one secretary should be appointed. Another alteration
intended to be made was in the sixth clause. As that
clause at present stood it contained considerable
ambiguity, and it was proposed, therefore, to insert a
proviso to the effect that nothing therein
contained should be construed to limit the
jurisdiction of any court of law with reference to
these bequests. These alterations, however, were of
less importance than the alteration hich he intended to
propose in the 13th clause. The House would recollect
that on a former occasion he had stated that there was an
obvious legal imperfection in the clause as sent from
the House of Lords. The clause as it now
stood fell short of the announced intention
of her Majesty's Government, for her Ma-
jesty's Government had declared that it was their wish
to give every facility to the voluntary endowment, not
only of the dignitaries of the Church of Rome, but the
parochial priests—not only those now in possession, but
all others succeeding. The clause as it was now framed
gave effect to the former part of that intention with re-
ference to the now officiating clergymen, but it failed
with respect to those succeeding, and it would, there-
fore, be necessary to introduce words to remedy this
defect. The clause as it at present stood concluded
with the following words, "in trust for any person in
Holy Orders in the Church of Rome, and fur building,
a residence for hie use, so long as he shall have the pas-
toral superintendence of any district or congregation
professing the Roman Catholic faith, or in trust for any
person in Holy Orders or a higher rank than parochial
priest." It was proposed to strike out those words,
and in their stead to introduce the following:—" Or any
Archbishop or Bishop, or other person in Holy Orders'
in the Church of Rome officiating in any district, or
having the pastoral superintendence of any congrega-
tion professing the Roman Catholic religion. '
Mr. HARCOURT VERNON expressed his satisfac-
tion with the alterations which had been made in the Bill.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to hear the ex-
planation of the Right Hon. Gentleman. On reading
this Bill it appeared to him to be a very useful
one, and ho was sorry to see that there were
some words introduced into the measure which
rendered the Bill somewhat imperfect, at the
same time it did not seem to him that the words had
been introduced with any offensive object, and, there-
fore, he was glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentleman
intended to propose the alterations which he had sub-
mitted to the House. He could not understand why
they should not plainly mention the titles " Archbishop
and Bishop of the Church of Rome." They could not
be ignorant that there were Bishops and Archbishops of
the Church of Rome, and he could not conceive what
objection there was to naming them. He was happy
that it was now proposed to introduce these words. With
respect to another point, the specifying the Roman Catholic
Bishops and Archbishops as presiding over certain
dioceses, he should not wish to raise that eontroversy at
present ; on another question, it might be necesary to
acknowledge in the Roman Catholic prelates the autho-
rities presiding in certain dioceses ; but it would be im-
politic to raise the question on this measure, and it
would not be wise to have inserted such words in the
Bill. The measure was limited to certain objects ; the
facilitating the possession of endowments by Roman
Catholic clergymen of Ireland ; and it being conceived
in the spirit of justice" he thought it was one with
which the House would generally agree.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL expressed his satisfaction
at what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet. He
valued the spirit in which the alterations had been made
more than the alterations themselves. He did not wish
to offer any sort of factious opposition to the Bill ; but,
on a measure affecting the religion they professed, he
and his Hon. Friends had thought it necessary fairly
and openly to express their opinion upon it.
The O'CONOR DON also expressed the satisfac-
tion he felt at the modification introduced by the Go-
vernment. Having been one of those who voted against the
measure on its second reading, he felt bound to state that
he had received communications from those whose opi-
nions he was bound to respect, but still he appreciated
highly the improvements that had been introduced into
the measure. Yet he must confess he thought that dif-
ficulties might arise from the interference of laymen
with matters connected with the discipline of the Church.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought it of the utmost import-
ance that one of the five Commissioners should be a Bi-
shop or Archbishop of the Roman Catholic Irish
Church, but as he understood it, that concession had not
been made ; he trusted, however, that, upon considera-
tion, the. Government would accede to the proposition.
He was glad to hear that the making the Catholic clergy
of Ireland stipendaries of the Government had been
abandoned. He thought the proposition of his Hon.
Friend opposite, that after the words "Bishop and Arch-
bishops" should be added " the other dignitaries of the
Church," was a good one, and might be well adopted.
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be more in consonance
with the spirit in which the Government had introduced
the measure to leave the discretion of the Crown un-
fettered. He trusted the House would adopt the altera-
tions proposed by his Right Hon. Friend, as they in-
cluded the names of the archbishops, and bishops, and
clergy, of the Church of Rome. He felt no doubt that
if the discretion of the Crown was left unfettered, the
appointments under the Bill would be made in the
same spirit that had dictated the introduction of the
measure.
Mr. BELLEW said the alterations proposed by the
Right Hon. Baronet had taken away the objections he
had urged the other night to the measure. He thought
the Bill would now work well, and he thanked her Ma-
jesty's Government for it.
Mr. F. SHAW said that no objection had been made
to this Bill on the part of the Protestant population of
Ireland, and he certainly thought that objections might
have been more jnstly expected from them than from
those from whom the had emanated the other evening.
With respect to the proposed alterations, he was not in-
clined to quarrel about words, although he believed it
was rather a new thing to find Catholic Archbishops and
Bishops named in an Act of Parliament, at least, since
1829. He believed that the old Board of Charitable Be-
quests had, on the whole, discharged its duty fairly,
and that it had given satisfaction even to
the Roman Catholic population of Ireland. With
respect to an observation made by the first
Lord of the Treasury, he wished to observe, and in the
same spirit, that, in his opinion, it would be better that
the Government should be left altogether unfettered as
to the appointments. On that ground he objected to
the second clause, rendering it incumbent on the Go-
vernment to have five persons of one religion and five of
another. It was calculated to keep up distinctions which
had better be forgotten, and it might be found practi-
cally inconvenient. Suppose the respectable class of
Roman Catholics were to agree not to accept the ap-
pointments ? The measure could not work at all. He did
not object to the fact of even six or seven Roman Catho
lies being on the board, if they were appointed irre-
spective of their religion, but he objected to five being
appointed by Act of Parliament ; and he thought the
Bill would work better if the appointments were left in
the hands of the Government. He also approved of the
suggestion of an Hon. Friend of his, that questions re-
lating to the discipline of the Church should be referred
to a Committee composed of members of the Established
Church in Ireland.
Mr. SHEIL thought that the sentiments which had
been expressed by the Right Honourable Gentleman
did him great credit ; and he would not be instru-
mental in breaking into the harmonious spirit which
pervaded the debate.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the
Government had acted more than wisely in making
these alterations, and that they deserved the greatest
credit for their conduct. It was said it was a mere affair
of words, but a principle was often involved in a word,
and by the use of one single expression in this Bill, they
had acknowledged a principle which might hereafter
load to the most valuable results. They had a precedent.
for the use of the term " Catholic Bishop " in the esti-
mates, in which a sum of 1,0001. was annually voted to
the Catholic Bishop of Quebec, and a smaller sum to the
Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland. He wished a
majority of Roman Catholics on a Commission which
would have to deal with the property of Roman
Catholics ; and he wished a majority of ecclesiastics
when the matter to be decided was of a spiritual or doc-
trinal nature. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read a
letter from an Irish Roman Catholic Archbishop, who
stood high in the opinion of men of all parties in this
country, and in that letter he said, " I consider the Bth
clause most objectionable, because it gives laymen a con-
trol over religious matters ; and if the Bill passed, con-
taining that clause, it would be considered an infringe-
ment on the Catholic Church." As far as temporal
matters were concerned, he (Mr. Sheil) would have no
objection—nay, he would prefer a majority of laymen,
but in ecclesiastical matters he was entirely of the opinion
of the Right Rev. Prelate whose opinion he had quoted.
Mr. D. BROWNE took nearly the same view as the
Right Hon. Gentleman. He thought the Bill was an
unjust interference with the doctrines of the Catholic
faith, at the same time that he gave full credit to the
spirit in which the Government had introduced it.
Mr. WYSE approved of the general provisions of the
Bill, but thought the number of Roman Catholics on
the Committee ought to be increased. He considered
the best course would be to choose three judges indif-
ferently from the bench, who would form the legal
element in the board. It was only right and, proper,

that there should be a considerable number of ecclesi-
astics on the board, and he would suggest, that the
Catholic visitors of the College of Maynooth—the Arch-
bishop of Armagh, the Archbishop of Dublin, and the
Earl of Fingal, should be members of the Board of
Charitable Bequests. This would amply sati,fy the
people of Ireland.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.

Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he had an amendment
on the paper to omit from the clause the words, " and
the judge of her Majesty's court of prerogative for
causes ecclesiastical and court of faculties in Ireland,"
but owing to the fair manner in which the Government
had come forward with respect to this Bill he would not
press it,
Mr. WYSE objected to the judge of the prerogative
court being appointed a member of the Board of Cha •
ritable Bequests in Dublin.
Clause 2 was agreed to:
Clauses 3,4, and 5, were also adopted, without diF-
cussion. On clause 6 being proposed,
Mr. S. O'OBRIEN moved, in line 36, after the word
" Ireland," the insertion of these words:—" Which shall
be in question before the said Commissioners shall ho
referred to a Committee of the said Commissioners,
consisting of those Commissioners who belong to the
said Church, and that all matters concerning the doctrine,

Sir J. GRAHAM could not accede to the proposition,
as he thought it far better to leave the subject to the
discretion of the Crown than to tie the Commission
down to any particular line of action.
Mr. SHAW thought the proposition of his Hon.
Friend a most reasonable one, but he would advise his
Hon. Friend not to press it to a division.
Mr..M. J. O'CONNELL said what he wished was
that security should be taken to make this measure as
perfect as possible. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would not divide the House.
After a short discussion the amendment was withdrawn.
Mr. SHEIL proposed that three out of the five
Roman Catholic members of the Commissioners should
be Archbishops or Bishops of the Roman Catholic
Church. He was sure that this sNould be necessary to
make the Bill efficacious in Ireland.

Sir R. PEEL hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would
not divide the House. He thought it would not be right
to restrict the power of the Crown, and that it would be
better to leave the appointments in the hands of the
Crown unfettered.
Mr. SHEIL said he would not divide the Committee
on the matter.
Mr. D. BROWNE said he would divide the Com-
mittee on the subject. The Roman Catholic clergy
would oppose the working of the measure if there was
not a majority of Roman Catholic Bishops on the board.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL hoped that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Mayo would not divide the Committee. It would
place the Government in an awkward position, for if the
Crown were left unfettered, he was sure that three Ro-
man Catholic ecclesiastics would be appointed; but if
the Government were forced to divide against the mo-
tion, they would be placed in an awkward position.
Colonel RA.WDON hoped the Hon. Member for
Mayo would not press the Committee to a division.
Sir R. PEEL said that, whether the lion. Gentleman
felt it his duty to press the question to a division or not,
the Government would do their duty.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped the Hon. Member for
Mayo would not divide.
Mr. D. BROWNE said he had formed a strong opinion
on the subject, and he should divide the Committee. lie
regretted that there was so frequently not only a diffe-
rence of opinion between Irish Members and the Go-
vernment, but between Irish Members themselves.
After some further discussion, the Committee divided,
when there appeared—
For the amendment l4
Against it - 36
M it, -inst the - tendment —22

.ajority agar tunk
The amendment was consequently lost.
On our admission to the gallery, we found
Mr. WYSE on his legs, moving the proviso of which
he had given notice, that the three Roman Catholic
visitors of Maynooth shOuld be three of the five Roman
Catholics to be appointed a Committee under the pro-
visions of the Bill.

Sir J. GRAHAM admitted that the proviso had been
brought forward in the most candid spirit, but he
thought it would be unwise to adopt it.
Mr. WYSE, after a short discussion, withdrew the
proviso.
The clause, as amended, was then ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
Colonel RAWDON then moved a clause defining the
persons who were to decide, in case there was any ques-
tion about any gift.
Sir R. PEEL doubted the propriety of the clause.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL supported the clause.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL thought the first part of the
clause was unobjectionable ; but with regard to the
second part of it, he thought the trustees of Maynooth
were not the proper persons to decide on the validity of
the appointment of Roman Catholic Bishops.
Sir R. PEEL was glad to find that justice was done to
the motives of the Government, and he would put it to
the Roman Catholic Members whether they were pre.
pared to entrust the trustees of Maynooth with the
power of declaring who should be the Catholic Bishop.
He thought it would be better to leave the board un-
fettered in their decision.

Colonel RAWDON did not object to withdraw his
proposition.
Mr. SHELL thought that all difficulty might have
been avoided if they had consented to make it imperative
that certain Roman Catholic ecclestical authorities should
be members of the board.

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL supported the proposition,
because he wished to avoid any cause for future ecclesi-
astical warfare. _ _ _

Mr. BELLEW said the trustees of Maynooth had no
more power to decide who was a Bishop of the Catholic
Church than any other person,
Mr. P. HOWARD said there could be no doubt hut
that no authority could solve an ecclesiastical doubt as
to who was a bishop but the Court of Rome.
The proposition of Colonel Rawdon was then with-
drawn, and the clause was agreed to.
On clause 7 being proposed, relating to the appoint-
ment of the secretaries,

Sir J. GRAHAM said that the report on the money
clauses would be brought up to-morrow.
The clause was then agreed to, with some verbal
amendments.

Clauses 8,9, 10, 11, and 12, were then agreed to.
On clause 13 being proposed,
Colonel RAWDON moved a proviso to the effect,
that in all cases in which a dispute shall arise as to
which of the secular Roman Catholic clergy is entitled
to a bequest, the Catholic Bishop who has spiritual
jurisdiction over such clergy, shall be legally authorised
to determine the clergyman who has a right to the
benefit of the bequest.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that all the objections which
applied to the former proposition of the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman applied with tenfold force to the
present proposition.
Mr. SHEIL supported the motion of the Hon. and
Gallant Officer. The clause in the Bill had been very
carefully worded, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had
taken especial care not to make the priest a corpora-
tion sole.

Colonel RAWDON felt bound to press his motion to
a division.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Committee divided—
For Colonel Rawdon's clause l9
Against it

Majority

On our return to the gallery we found
Mr. HINDLEY objecting to the clause, as it confer-
red greater power on Roman Catholic divines than on
Presbyterians.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the same powers were guaran-
teed to Presbyterians.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL spoke to a similar
effect.

Mr. SHEIL said it would be well for the public to
know that an individual bequest might be now left in
trust for a convent ; that was so by the present law. He
wished to know whether, under this Bill, convents would
be excluded from grants ?
Mr. WYSE spoke of the utility of convents. They
were establishments of immense utility, and particularly
useful in Ireland ; but they were excluded, he knew not
for what reason, from the provisions of this Bill. Would
the Government prohibit these institutions, to which re
lief had been granted by the Emancipation Bill ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the clause had
no leaning directly on convents. Money could still be
demised for conventual establishments.
Mr. SIIEIL said it was true a bequest could be made,
but the corporation which the Bill created would have
no power to interfere in case the bequests were mis-
applied,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (fur Ireland) said
that in such case there was a remedy in a court of equity.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said something more wag
necessary. He recollected an instance in which a nun-
, nery was ruined by the misapplication of funds by the
trustee.
Sir R. PEEL said the Bill did not interfere with trusts
now existing. He hoped the question of the Right
Hon. Gentleman would be reserved for a future occasion
—the question did not naturally arise on the present

measure.
Mr. SHEIL was glad to understand that the Bill
would not affect donations to convents. A contrary im •
pression prevailed in Ireland.
Sir d. GRAHAM.said the Bill did not relax the sta-
tute of mortmain in respect to bequests made to con-
vents; but at the same bequests might be made for con-
ventual purposes, and the Commission might be iv.
pointed. trustees 40 that bequest.
Mr. WYSE wished to know whether, if a donation
were made for the use of a chapel attached to Stoney-
burst College, for instance, it could not be legally re-
cognised.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (for Ireland) said he
did not think monastic institutions could be recognised
in a court of equity ; nor, by consequence, any bequest
demised to them. They were especially exempted from
the operation of the Catholic Relief Bill.
Mr. SHEIL—Then I will tell' you what will be the
consequence : the bequest is made, the Commissioners
seise—it cannot be recovered, ,and the Commissioners
dispose of it exactly as they think proper.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—But that law does
not apply to Ireland.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE rose to oppose the clause.
Lord ELIOT expressed his surprise that the amend-
ment should have been proposed.
Mr. SHELL ridiculed the idea of a man being allowed
to devise a large sum of money to a parish priest, and
yet not be allowed to devise a small tract of land for the
same purpose.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (for Ireland) said the
distinction had been recognised ever since 9th Geo. IV.
Mr. V.FERRALI.4.§uPPOrted the amendment.

The Committee then divided. The numbers were—
For the clause 4B
Against it
Majority for the clause
The clause ss as then agreed to.
Clauses 16, 17, 18, and 19, were also agreed to without
discussion.
The House then resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported
progress, and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow (this
day).

MERCHANT SEAMEN'S BILL.
The Merchant Seamen's Bill was read a third time.
DEBTORS AND CREDITORS BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to bo
committed to-morrow.

TRANSFER OF PROPERTY BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow at twelve o'clock.

Mr. H. lIINDE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
establish District Registers for Mines.
The Lords' Amendments to the New South Wales
Bill were agreed to.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past Eleven o'clock.

GREENWICH PENSIONERS' NEL-
SON DINNER.
LORD LINCOLN AND TIIE WOODS AND
FORESTS.

Yesterday a General 14feeting of the Subscribers to
the above fund for giving a dinner to those pensioners of
Greenwich Hospital who served under Nelson, upon the
occasion of the inauguration of the Nelson column in
Trafalgar-square, was held at Willis's Rooms, kings
street, St. James's, to enable the Committee to explain to
them, and the public generally, the reasons why the en-
tertainment had been so frequently postponed, and also
to take the subscribers' opinion and wishes as to the
manner in which the money should be appropriated
Sir Edward Codrington was called to the chair, amidst
loud applause, shortly after two o'clock.
The lion, and Gallant CHAIRMAN said the object of
this meeting was to show to the subscribers that the
Committee had done everything which lay in their
power to carry out the wish of the public ; and, in proof
of that assertion, he would state as briefly as possible
the steps which they had adopted to carry out the inten-
tions of the subscribers. The first meeting of the Com-
mittee was on the 10th of November, 1842, when they
got the cordial permission of Sir Robert Stopford, the
Governor of Greenwich Hospital, for all those pensioners
who had served under Nelson to attend at the dinner on
any stated day. The next step was to gain the sanction of
the Commissioners of Woods and Forests ; and upon
communication being made for that purpose to Lord
Lincoln, he expressed much pleasure in affording every
facility for the contemplated fete, as it met with his cor-
dial approval. As it was found that the state of the
ground would not admit of the dinner being held upon
the day then fixed, it was determined to postpone it to
the anniversary of the battle of Copenhagen, the 2d of
April, 1844 ; but a letter from Mr. Barry, the architect,
stated that the interior of the square would not
be in a sufficiently forward condition for the dinner to
take place there. In consequence of this, the Committee,
hearing that it was intended to remove the hoarding, ad-
dressed a letter, on the 26th of April, to Lord Lincoln,
reminding him of his promise, in November, 1842, to
which his Lordship replied that his promise was de-
pendent upon the dinner taking place last autumn, and
that the square could be kept shut no longer. The
Committee, after this, determined to fix the dinner for
the 24th of May, her Majesty's birth -day ; and, upon
this occasion, Lord Lincoln said he could see no objec-
tion to the square being appropriated for the dinner upon
certain conditions, the principal of which was, that
the Committee would make themselves responsible for
any damage done to the asphaltum pavement. In con-
sequence of this :promise, advertisements were issued,
stating that the dinner would take place on the 24th of
May ; but, upon the 17th, a letter was received from
Lord Lincoln, stating that, owing to the defective condi-
tion of a portion of the square, he felt bound to withdraw
his permission. This letter was received after many
contracts had been entered into, and the Committee,
put to much unnecessary and useless expense. Another
application having been made to his Lordship, he stated,
in reply, that the contemplated dinner was disapproved
of by the Lords of the Admiralty ; but if a letter was
brought from their Lordships, he would re-
consider his determination. The Gallant Chairman
waited upon Lord Haddington, who distinctly denied
that the Lords of the Admiralty disapproved of a
dinner, and wrote a letter, in his private capacity, to that
effect. To obviate another professed objection of Lord
lincoln, and leave bim no excuse, the Messrs. Maude,
the contractors for laying down the asphaltum, stated
that, if any injury was caused to the pavement by the
dinner, they would (as it would be painful to them to
stop the festival) repair it at their own expense.—
(Cheers.) Those two letters being -communicated to
Lord Lincoln, ho still refused to assent, saying, as a pure
matter of police, he thought it unadvisable to have a
public dinner in an open space in the heart of a large
metropolis. This latter objection was answered in two
ways—first, Colonel Mayne, the Police Commissioner,
said he had applied to Sir James Graham, and
taken steps for the preservation of order; and
next, he (Sir Edward Codrington) felt convinced
that every Englishman who had the naval honour of his
country at heart—there were few who hid not—
would have kept order himself. The Hon. and
Gallant Chairman then went minutely through the de-
tails of all that had occurred with respect to Parliamen-
tary discussions respecting the erection of the Nelson
column, and said that soon after the close of the last
war, a suns of 200,0001. had been voted for such pur-
poses as this, and had not as yet been expended ; and,
therefore, he thought there was a claim upon this fund
for as much as would have finished the pillar. He had
now stated all he knew, and neither he nor the Commit-
tee could possibly tell the reasons for Lord Lincoln's
conduct, for every one of the objections which he had
urged had been subsequently removed. In conclusion he
begged of any gentleman present, who was a subscriber,
to suggest some proposition for the disposal of the sum
of money which now lay in the treasurer's hands, which,
after the deduction of incidental expenses, amounted to
3471. Before sitting down, he should state that Admiral
Sir Robert Stopford bad suggested, in a letter to the
Committee, that the money in hand should be either
paid over to the pensioners, or funded for their families.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he attended on the part of his
Grace the Duke of Northumberland, to suggest origi-
nally that it ought to be appropriated to some charitable
institution ; but he (Mr. 'Williams) might presume to
say, that he was sure his Grace would at once coincide in
the proposition of Sir Robert Stopford.
It was then agreed that the money should'be funded
for the benefit of the widows and families of the pen-
sioners for whom the dinner was intended.

After which the meeting passed a cordial Tote of
thanks to the Gallant Chairman, and separated.

LLOYD'S SHIPPING.
LONDON, Aro. I.—Wind, strong westerly breeze and
cloudy. It blew strong with squalls last night.
OFF MARGATE, J t7T:l*
.:11.—Eliza, Baker, St. Vincent's.

DEAL, JUI.Y 3L—Wind A.M. W.N.W., r.M.NAV., fresh and
squally.—Arrd. Anwata, Brown, Batavia for Rotterdam ;
Active, New York for Stettin ; Barbara Gordon, Ritchie,
Tobago ; Lady Hilda, Bounce, Barbadoew ; Margaret Reut,
Coffin, South leas ; Sarah, Behan, St. John's, New Bruns-
wick ; Asia, Greelores, and Imogen, Quebec ; Wakefield,
Hall, St. John's, New Brunswick ; Lady Seaton and
Sultana, Montreal ; Fear Not, Nassau ; -Emma Searle,
Hogan, Prince Edward's Island ; Ottawa, Montreal, put
back ; Duke of Roxburgh for the Cape and Madras. Std.
Switzerland, New York. The Ottawa in the Downs, from
Montreal, passed several small icebergs, 9th inst., lat, 46, lon.
47. The Dutch ship Elizabeth and Antionette, proceeded to
London for repair.
RYE, JULY 31.—The Marianne, of Hastings, delivering
part of cargo (coal) at that port yesterday, came off, and
drove ashore to the eastward of the harbour, and is expected
to become a wreck.
OFF EASTBOURNE, JULY 27.—Amata, Brown, Batavia for
Rotterdam ; Colonist, Surinam, for Amsterdam.
DARTMOUTH', JULY 31.—1 t blew a gale from W. to W.S.W.
yesterday, with a heavy sea in the Channel. Several Rail
took shelter in Torbay.
lints Tot., JULY 30.—The wreck of a brig, of about 200 tons,
with a billet-head, painted yellow, decks gone., foremast
standing, and both anchors lashed in the bows, was passed
29th ult., lat. 48, lon. 31, by the James and Mary, arrived
here.
BELFAST, JULY 27.—And. Robert Kerr, Agnew, Ichaboe.
29.—Don, Carlton, and Cranhook, Quebec; Retreat, Aleen,
Miremicth. Sid. Two Brothers, Quebec.
BatnisrrArt.E, Juty 31.—Arrd. British Lady, Redmore,
Prince Edward's Island.
HULL, JULY 29.—Sid. Venerable, St. John's New Brant.
wick.
NEWFORT, JULY 29.—Sld. Stately, Grenada.
POOLE, JULY 29.—SId. Anglicans, Quebec:
ST. IvEs, JULY 29.—Arrd. Victoria, Quebec.
TRALEE, JULY 29.—SId. Britannia, Quebec.
FROME, JULY 27.—S1d. Springfield, Quebec.
'rd. Napo-
LLlT.vrrEintr,
00Jult,,v
j2t9L.-1, ,fDresalhh._ouAsi;
icon, Moller, Callao; Pennsylvania, New Orleans, with much
damage, having been ashore near Bruit(); Peningham,
Green, Laguna; Maitland, Killatn, Eleuthera; Glendower,
New Orleans; Sir E. Howell and Viola, Jamieson, Mobile;
Sir Howard Douglas, Savannah ; Margaret Pollok, an
Royalist, Lawson, St. John's, New Brunswick ; George,
Finch, Miramichi ' • Atalanta and George Ramsey, Montreal ;
Jane Augusta and Calcutta, Lingard, Quebec, the latter with
several feet of water in her hold, having been struck by a
sea about a week since; Cynthia,. Goldsmith, and Margaret
Ann, Cole, Newfoundland.

The Governor and Deputy-Go4vernor of the Bank of
England had an interview with the Chancellor of the
Exchequer yesterday, at his official residence in Down.
ing-street.
Sir Robert Peel is to dine with the Worshipful
Company of Clothworkers on Thursday, the Bth instant,
and all the rest of her Majesty's Ministers will meet the
Right lion. Baronet at dinner in Clothworkers' Hall.
The Toulon papers state that several ships of Admiral Per-
oeval's division will very shortly leave Toulon. They are, it
is said, to rendezvous at Brest, and be ready to escort the
King to the shores of England.
A meeting of the Proprietors of the United Mexican Mines
was held on Wednesday, and the attendance was numerous,
many being induced to present. themselves in consequence of
the expected appearance of Mr. Schoolbred, the able mana-
ger lately returned from Mexico, and a report from the Di-
rectors. Mr. Schoolbred was in attendance, and the informa-
tion he communicated on the concerns of the Company
abroad proved, upon the whole, satisfactory. There is, at
length, some prospect of a dividend, though the surplus cub
on hand is not as vet quite adequate for the purpose. The
debt due to the Company continues at. about 1,00,000 dol-
lars, including the claim on the mines and that owing by the
Government of Mexico.
HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS PRINCE ALBERT'S. APIARY.
—Five tastefully-constructed bee-hives (in addition to tw,
others which arrived at Windsor last week) of American
manufacture, in the form ofcastles, were brought to Winds°.
Castle, yesterday morning, bey the patentee, by, order o
Prince Albert, and placed in his Royal llighness'aApiery,
the Royal Dairy, in the Home-park; the Prince having ex
pressed his desire of devoting his attention to the rearing ant
culture of this useful and profitable little insect. By an uni
form temperature which is kept up in these hives, the bee
are preserved throughout the winter, providing-at the same
time effectually for the health of the colony; and allowing the
surplus honey to be taken in the purest state.-

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