The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVEN!

law had' been justly administered, and that the una
fortunate person had forfeited his life according
ROUSE OF LORDS, March 4. to that law, and he was also bound to suppose
The LORD CDANCELL" took his seat on the Wool- thatthat judge was by no means ignorant of the law, nor
sack shortly after Five o'clock. was guilty of maladministration or perversion of it.
Earl POWIS presented several petitions from di
f. He believed that the judge had not maladministered
it was the law, and he was condemned to
Bangor and St. Asaph.
ferent parts of Wales, against the union of the sees of the law;
die for aiding the escape of a slave. That was the
IRELAND. . law of Louisiana; it was not the law of England
—God forbid it should be. But he might
The Marquis of WESTMEATH trusted that
their Lordships would excusehim,for a few minutes humbly, and with every respect towards the
while he adverted to the letter which the other evening Government and Legislature of Louisiana, express
advantage would be taken of
had been produced by the Noble Marquis opposite, deny
ing the statement which he (the Marquis of Westmeath)interval between this Apr
il,
had long _ _ and the 26th of
- his fervent hope that
when he
.was condemned to die, for the sacred purpose
had made. Upon that occasion, he had stated that in
the county. of Westmeath, the Roman Catholic bishop of extending mercy to this criminal. He treated him as
because the laws of his
country had so dealt
had suspended a Roman Catholic clergyman for having
hh hopedthat
refused to assist in the collection of money for the re- with him ; but e ope and trusted the humane
a criminal,
peal of the union. At the time he (the Marquis of and merciful considerationtu of the Louisanian
l.
Govern-
Westmeath) made that statement, he thought it was ment would be extended this unfortunate individual.
true, but when the Noble Marquis read the letter CORN-LAWS.
purporting to correct it, he (the Marquis of Westmeath) The Earl of DEVON presented two petitions from
hesitated as to its truth, and, in order to ascertain thethe county
of Somerset in favour of the corn-laws.
fact, he had written to Ireland upon the subject, and LANDLORD AND TENANT COMMISSION.
the answer to that letter proved that what he had The Marquis of CLANRICARDE gave notice that
stated was substantially the fact. What he had he should put a question to the Noble Earl opposite
said was, that the Roman Catholic clergyman had (the Earl of Devon), as to the Landlord and Tenant
been suspended from his living. Perhaps he would Commission. Some contradictory reports had been
have been more correct if he had stated that he had in circulation, and the object of his question would be
been superseded. It was intended to hold one of to elicit from the Noble Earl, the real scope, aim, and
those monster meetings at Mullingar. This clergy- object of the Commission.
man had exerted all his influence to prevent the col- NATIONAL EDUCATION.
lection of money, and also to prevent his parishioners The Marquis of NORMANBY rose for the pur-
from attending this meeting. Previous to the meeting pose of presenting the petition of which he had given
at Mullingar taking place, the clergyman, whose name notice, from John and Elizabeth Ryan, the keepers ofthe
was Murray, and who had since died, was informed parochial school of Ballysack, in the diocese of Kildare,
that a curate would be sent to his congregation for complaining that the interest of 2001., the legacy of a
three Sundays. That was done, and the result was, former rector of the parish, had been unjustly stopped
that Mr. Murray was superseded in his own parish.
for the last seventeen months by the Board of Charitable
Such were the real facts of the case, and in his
Bequests in Ireland, in consequence of the introduc-
opinion the titular bishop had made the denial ad-
tion of the national system of education into the
verted to by the Noble Marquis in order to
school. The petition prayed for a Committee of
prevent the odium that would attach to him for the Inquiry into the constitution of this Board.
course he had pursued. Now, in order to show that In the year 1794 a Committee of the House of Lords
what he (the Marquis of Westmeath) had stated was took upon themselves the examination and control of
no exaggeration, he would read to their Lordships' charitable bequests and donations in Ireland, and
some of the expressions used by this titular bishop at they instituted prosecutions with a view to the resto-
Mullingar. At that meeting, fifty-one Roman Ca- ration of sums which had been misappropriated.
tholidtpmen attended. It took place on Sunday Just previous to the union it occurred to the Irish
the ay. The Roman Catholic bishop was in the Parliament that something should be done with refe-
chair at the dinner which took place after the meeting, rence to these trusts, and one of the last Acts of
and during the course of his speech on that occasion that Parliament was to establish a board of charitable
he stated that the Irish deserved and should have bequests and donations. That board was to be corn-
self government. He then expressed the great plea- posed of the Lord Chancellor, the judges of the Pre-
sure that he felt at the glorious demonstration that rogative Court, of all the common law judges in Ire-
had taken place that day, and he expressed the de- land, of all bishops, and of the nineteen rectors of
termination on the part of the Irish people to follow the different parishes in Dublin. In the year
the course they were adopting till they wiped off the 1829 a Committee was appointed to consi-
stigma that rested upon Ireland, and until they again der this subject, and very important evidence
was given before that Committee by Mr. O'Connell.
made her what she ought always to have been—a nation.
Mr. O'Connell said, that many persons had consulted
Another person of the name of O'Higgins also made
a speech of the same tendency, and in language him on the subject of this Board. They complained
equally violent.—(The Noble Marquis then read an of its composition. Mr. O'Connell stated that, owing
extract of some length from a speech of the Roman
to the Protestant character of that Board
Catholic Bishop Dr. O'Higgins, in which that re- ,
large sums of money had been lost to the
verend person declared himself a zealous repealer, charities of Ireland. He, therefore, recom-
and denounced the malignity of the Government, mended an alteration and revision. From that
which he said would be ineffectual towards put- time to the year 1838 nothing farther was done in
tht a
ting down the demands of the Irish people the matter. In that year, however, the Hon. Mem-
to legislate for themselves.) In bringing this ber forinthe
other Hu
Waterfordintroducedoseof
pa a
r blamill euzn
butthe
sub-
matter before their Lordships, he had only been im-
ject
pelled by a sense of duty. It would be much more Bill never reached their Lordships' House.
agreeable to hire if he could speak well of the Roman The Noble Marquis then read the will of Mr. Few,
Catholic bishops and clergy, but he thought it the former rector of the parish, by which he left the
was his duty as a resident magistrate to bring before interest of 2001. towards the support of the school.
the House any facts of importance which came under He would now say one word upon the state of the
his cognizance in the discharge of his duties as a parish of Ballysack, of which he knew something,
landlord and magistrate. having had a residence there, to which he some-
The Marquis of NORMANBY thought he would times retired when his avocations would permit him
best meet the substantial justice of the case, to do so. That parish was supposed to contain about
by denying the statement on the part of the 3,000 inhabitants, but it had since been ascertained that
right reverend person who had confided his de- the number of inhabitants was only 1,300, and of that
fence to him (the Marquis of Normanb l
Yv number only 40 were Protestants. The present
On the former occasion he had confined him- rector of the parish, Mr. Birmingham, had exerted
self to a specific denial of the charge. The himself in a praiseworthy manner to make the school
Noble Marquis seemed to have a strange mode of what it was at present. The former state of
making out his case. The Noble Marquis had made the parish was this : there was a schoolmaster,
a specific charge, which was met by a specific denial, who received the interest of the gift, but there
upon which the Noble Marquis retorted, by reading was no school or scholars. At present there were
not only a speech of the right rev. person, but the 78 Roman Catholic scholars, boys and girls, who
speech of another titular bishop also. Certainly were educated under the regulation of a National
that was carrying the doctrine of conspiracy rather Board ; there were, however, only four Protestant
farther than it ha been carried even of late years.— children went there, their parents making no objection.
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He (the Marquis of Nor- Such was the state of the parish of Bally-
manby) had received by this day's post a letter sack. Now, with respect to the Reverend Mr.
from the Right Reverend person, Dr. Cantwell, Birmingham, he was originally curate of St. Bride's.
who assured him that he had never either That gentleman had been appointed chaplain to the
spoken or written a word to the late Dr. Lord Lieutenant by the Marquis Wellesley, he had
Murray, parish priest of Clonmellon (four miles from been continued as chaplain by his Noble Friend op.
the residence of the Marquis of Westmeath), and that posite and by himself. Under the present Ministry
for the 14 years that he had been bishop of that the appointment to the chaplaincy had been, he was
diocese, in which Dr. Murray had been 35 years the bound to say, of a more exclusively political cha-
incumbent of a parish, he had lived with that rev. racter, and Mr. Birmingham had been no longer con-
gentleman on terms of the closest friendship, and tinued chaplain. Mr. Brimingham had beenappointed
had always regarded him with respect, esteem, and af- to the rectory of Ballysack. The system which had
fection. He (Dr. Cantwell) attended at the funeral been pursued there had continued without interrup-
,of the deceased gentleman, assisted by 30 clergymen, lion up to last year, when the Board of Charitable
and nearly 3,000 persons attended at the funeral Bequests had thought proper to interfere. This in-
ceremony.—(Hear, hear.) Was not that a complete terference had been coeval with 'the admission to that
answer to the charge that Dr. Cantwell had passed Board of certain ex officio members—namely, judges
an ecclesiastical censure upon his subordinate Y On who had been appointed by the present Government
what then did the Noble Marquis rest his charge of -gentlemen who had always exhibited themselves
suspension ? That the aged and rev. gentleman, after as strong political partisans of the Protestant Ascen-
having performed the duties of parish priest for nearly dancy, who had attended the meeting at the Man-
forty years, left his duty to be performed by his sion-house in 1837—he meant Mr Baron Lefroy and
curate, for three successive Sundays, shortly before Mr. Sergeant Jackson. Mr. Jackson had giVen utter-
his death. He (the Marquis of Normanby) would ance to such strong opinions on this subject that he had
leave the statement of the Right Rev. Dr. Cant- been excluded from serving as a judge of assize un-
well in the hands of the House, and he thought it so der the goveinment'of the Duke of Northumberland
complete an answer that he would not add one word and Lord Francis Egerton. Onitbe 7tkof April, 1843,
to it.—(Hear.) , Mr. Birmingham received a letter from Mr. Mathews,
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said, that their secretary to the Board of Charitable Bequests, stating
Lordships would decide between them, but he would that, in the opinion of the Commissioners the school
not on any account state who the person was from was not properly conducted as a.Protestant parochial
whom he had received his information, for if he did school ; that in consequence the trust had not been
he would expose that person to imminent danger. properly fulfilled, and that until the school should be
He had heard the matter at the time, and he still made a Protestant school, the trust-money left by the
firmly believed, notwithstanding the contradiction Rev. Mr. Pugh would not be paid. The resolution
which had been read to their Lordships, who would of the Board, m consequence of which the letter had
give it its full value when they recollected the language been written, had been proposed by Mr. Baron Le-
which he had just read as having been used froy and seconded by Mr. Sergeant Jackson. It had
by the right rev. person. Their Lordships would been passed by a small majority, and among
also judge whether he would make a personal attack the minority who voted against the resolution were
upon an individual with whom he had no intimacy the Archbishop of Dublin and Chief Baron Brady
whatever. There was another circumstance which The Noble Marquis then read an extract from the
was, perhaps, of some importance. The Noble Mar- will, to show that it was the intention of the testator
quis had spoken of the parish of Clonmellon, but the to leave the system of education entirely to the dis-
affair to which he (the Marquis of Westmeath) re- cretion of the clergyman. He did not think that the
ferred took place in the chapel of Kilallen. Did the Board had any power to withhold the grant. Their
Noble Marquis deny that the curate had preached limited to the recovery powers were of charitable
be-
there three separate Sundays ? quests which had been secreted, neglected, or misap-
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he had plied. Theonly expression in their constitution which
made no mention of any matter of the kind to which they could so construe was, that which authorised
the Noble Marquis now referred. He had confined them, in cases where the bequest could not be lawfully
himself to the specific charge made by the Noble applied according to the will of the testator, to apply
Marquis, and there was a distinct denial on the part of it sd as to meet as nearly as possible the intention of
the Right Rev. Gentleman who had been made the the will. The Noble Marquis then read a letter from
subject of accusation. the Bishop of Kildare to the Rev. Mr. Birmingham,
The conversation then dropped. in which the Right Rev. Prelate informed that
SIR AUGUSTUS D'ESTE. gentleman, that at a meeting of the Board of Chari-
Lord BROUGHAM, in presenting a petition from table Bequests, severe strictures hadheen passed upon
Sir Augustus D'Este said, that a former petition of his conduct, and the Bishop warned him that he
, that distinguished individual, respecting his right to brought himself within the provisions of the penal
the titles of the late Duke of Sussex, had been re- Act of King Henry VIII., in his 28th year, "unless
ferred to the Committee of Privileges. The Prussian he (Mr. Birmingham) should restore his school
Minister, the Chevalier Bunsen, who was an important to its proper uses." But the fact was,
witness in the matter, was about to proceed on Satur- the Act of .Henry VIII. was the 15th and
day next to his own country, from which he would not the 28th, and its object was not to make the
not return for three months, and the prayer of the schools Protestant, but to enforce the teaching of
petition which he now presented was that the Stand- English. It was passed at a time when there had
mg Order, No. 120, of their Lordships' House, might been no change in the intent, and it contained a special
be suspended; and he now gave notice of a motion to enactment that the pupils should "tell their beads in
that effect for to-morrow, in order that the evidence English."—(llear, hear.) That was a Protestant
of that witness, de bene esse, might be taken previous enactment.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Act
to his leaving this country. contained other regulations relating to the dress and
After a few words from Lord CAMPBELL and the manners of the clergy. They were not to wear "satin
Loma CHANCELLOR, the petition was ordered to lie shirts," nor to wear hair upon their upper lips.—(A
on the table. laugh.) He did not wish to read the whole of the
COMMITTEE OF THE PRIVY COUNCIL. Right Rev. Prelate's letter. His Grace was eighty
Lord BROUGHAM laid on the table .a Bill for six years of age, and it might be supposed that
Improving the Jurisdiction of the Judicial Commit- the letter contained some expressions which his Grace
tee of the Privy Council. at another time might wish he had reconsidered.
The Bill was read a first time. As he did not read the second letter, he would not
SLAVERY IN AMERICA. read the answer, but the Bishop, in the course of his
Lord BROUGHAM said that he had received letter, states "he was anxious to rescue the property,
many applications within the last few weeks upon a acid place from the hands of the National Board."—
very painful subject, and though he had refused the (Hear, hear.) It was not with the Board of Chari-
applicants to present any petition upon it, still he table Bequests, but with the minister of the parish
could not help raying a few words upon the matter, that the Covtrol of the funds rested, till this most ex-
while he stated briefly the reasons for which he re- traordinary interference of the Board of National
fused to present any petition. Nothing could Education. He would not read the Bishop's letter,
be more painful than any interference whatever of because ha was aware that a threat had been conveyed
either House of Parliament with any matter to the Rev. Mr. Birmingham that if he brought the
or thing that was connected with the domestic policy case before Parliament it was possible a temporary
of any foreign country, or belonging to the adminis- license of non-residence, which he had on account of
tration of the municipal law of that country. He the illness of his wife, who was the mother of seven
thought it was no reason for breaking that children, would be withdrawn from him by his dio-
rule, that it happened that any law of that coun- cesan.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped there was no foun-
try was revolting to our feelings, because we dation for this. He knew enough of the Bishop of
bad nothing whatever to do except with our- Kildare to make him believe that such a step would
a'Airea and our own law, and the administration not be taken. Having stated thus much with regard
of ozir own jurisprudence, and we had no business to this case, he would, in a few words, call the atten-
whatevor to interfere with any foreign country in any tion.of the House to what the state of Ballysack
respect wi;mi,soever, while that foreign country con- would be if it were not for their interference.
fined itself to its own law and the adminstration of This case was an epitome of the state of Ireland.
that law. ,f fiat he held to be so sacred The same thing might be the case with five out of
a principle, that he had refused to take six parishes in Ireland. It illustrated the struggle
any step whatever on the question brought before between the two principles of government for Ireland
him. But it was a case av;:iell greatly interested his —that which would govern the people with good will
feelings. A man had be,eta condemned to death in and with the concurrence of the great mass of the
the Criminal Court of I,,,ousiana, with the population, and that which would govern her by con-
sentence passed by the 1. torned Judge, as straint and force. The Roman Catholic pastor had
if he had committed int, .rder —with the been acting in concert with the rector of the parish
appropriate language of such a sent 4,ence, as if such in promoting the education of their respective flocks
a man had been guilty of the greates,. `• wickedness— —a happy state of things, which should meet with the
with directions to the unfortunate man to improve encouragement of their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.)
the interval between the sentence and his .7.4715 upon He trusted the Government would at once interfere,
the gallows—with reference to the sacred truil,.. of and apply such a remedy as was necessary, .in order
religion, as if the man had committed impiously an to prevent the malappropriation of these trusts. When
irreligious and cruel and barbarous murder. That '
-. Noble Lords spoke about Ireland, they not only
was the case to which his attention. had been s°ll' ' ignorant of that country, but actually to have
a,-.
drawn. Heseernet, was bound to suppose thatthe Louisjanian . a oot they had already learned of her. Why,
I forgotten ), .
'‘.... 4...44..

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

NG, MARCH 5, 1844.

this very system of education which had been so de-
nounced, had been most strongly recommended by
the Education Commission itself. The report of that
Commission bore the signature of such names as the
Primate of Ireland, the Archbishop of Cashel ; and
the report itself was brought up by one of the most
distinguished advocates of Protestantism, Mr. Leslie
Foster.—(Hear, hear.) He feared the Irish Govern-
ment did not sufficiently discourage sectarian feuds
and religious rancour. The address of the Pro-
testant Operative Association to the Lord
Lieutenant contained sentiments of undis-
guished hostility to the great bulk of the
Irish people, and should have been replied to in a
manner which would- show them that the Executive
discouraged all such indications. The Noble Marquis
then read the answer of the Lord Chancellor of Ire-
land to the Rev. Mr. Birmingham's letter, in which
that Noble and Learned Lord stated that it was not
in the province of the Government to review the acts
of the Board of Charitable Bequests. He (the Lord
Chancellor) was a member of that Board, and if the
application was made to the Board during its sitting
he would call their particular attention to it. He
could not, however, give any opinion concerning the
merits of the particular application. The Rev. Gen-
tleman had applied since then, but was told the Board
had not sat, and so the grievance was left unre-
dressed. He would earnestly call the attention of
their Lordships to the motion. He feared that how-
ever anxious the Noble Duke opposite (the Duke of
Wellington) might be to act in a straightforward and
impartial manner, that the Irish Government must
have a more determined will, and use a stronger
hand in order to restrain those sectarian manifesta-
tions and govern with impartiality. It was not his
intention to move for a Committee at present. He
would confide the matter to the management of the
Government; but on a future occasion, if the evil was
not remedied, he would feel it his duty to move for
a Committee, before which he would be able to sub-
stantiate all the allegations he had made on that
evening.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had taken
great pains to inform himself of the particulars re-
garding the present motion, but had been unable to
obtain much information on the subject. He believed
the statement made by the Noble Marquis was nearly
accurate. The Noble Duke then recapitulated the
facts of the case as stated by the Noble Marquis, and
stated that it appeared to him that the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland had taken the only proper
course, in recommending the applicant to apply to a
court of equity, which was the proper method of ob-
taining redress, as that court alone could have juris-
diction over the Board of Bequests. The applicant
.had certainly applied to the Lord Chancellor of Ire-
land, but as he had not made the application to the
Noble and Learned Lord in his judicial capacity, the
Noble and Learned Lord gave him the only answer
he could give him, as merely a member of the Board.
As to the Bishop of Kildare, or the other matters
mentioned by the Noble Marquis, he had nothing
whatever to do with them ; but he thought it would
very badly become their Lordships to appoint a Com-
mittee, when the legitimate course of application
being to a court of equity had not been resorted to.
He would, however, call the attention of the Govern-
ment to the subject.
Lord COTTENHAM was of opinion that a
court of equity was not the proper place to apply to
in this case. In the first place, the whole amount, a
trifle of 71., would be consumed in a single motion in
the Court of Chancery ; in the second, the case in-
volved a point of much difficulty and disputation.
What really was the power given by the Act of Par-
liament to the Board of Charitable Bequests ? The
words of the Act did certainly appear to give great
discretion to that Board, a discretion which might
render nugatory all such bequests as the present, and
which might be sought to be applied to the general
purposes of education. He would earnestly call the
attention of the Government to the state of the law
on this matter, with a view to its alteration.
The LORD CHANCELLOR did not think this
was a case for a court of equity. He thought his
Hon. and Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor of
Ireland had given the only answer he could give by
telling the applicant to apply to the Board when he
was present, and he would call their attention to the
case. The matter never had been brought before the
Board since, else he felt quite sure the Hon. and
Learned Lord would have fully redeemed his promise.

day next to move the appointment of the Committee
on the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway, and he should
on that occasion propose that the Committee on that
Bill should be deferred for a reasonable time, as the
question of referring the Bills for competing lines to
the same Committee affected this Bill. The principle
hitherto adopted by that House with respect to pri-
vate Bills, had been to appoint the Committees upon
these Bills from Members connected with the local
interest to which the particular Bill might apply.
The Committee, after mature consideration, had come to
the determination of recommending the House to de-
part from that principle in respect to Railway Bills
to be introduced during the present session. It was
felt by the Committee that, where two Railway Bills
were proposed, the lines to run from the same or
nearly the same termini, and to be established for the
accommodation of the same district, that such
Bills ought to be referred to the same Committee
of that House. In considering this subject, however,
the Committee had had to contend with several diffi-
culties. One was with respect to the rail-
way from the town of Ashton to Staleybridge,
There were two lines proposed, and both were for the
accommodation of the same town. One of those
railways joined the Manchester and Sheffield Rail-
way; and the other, the Manchester and Leeds Rail-
way. The two termini of these railways were in
two counties, for it appeared that the town stood on
the borders of different counties. Now, this was a
case of some difficulty. In former years an experi-
ment was tried, with respect to such a case as this,
which was, that the Committee should be appointed
from Members connected with different counties.
This experiment, however, he believed, had
worked in a most unsatisfactory manner,
and had not been repeated. Although a railway Bill
was in itself a private Bill, yet no one could doubt
that the public had a great interest in such Bills.
The Committee had, therefore, determined to recom-
mend the House to depart from the general rule with
respect to the appointment of the Committees on
Railway Bills. They felt in cases of competing
lines that the number of Members on the
Committee who were connected with or represented
the local interests, should be materially restricted.
He did not mean to say that this resolution
had been come to without any difference of
opinion in the Committee, of which he was
Chairman. But after mature deliberation this was the
conclusion at which they had arrived. They pro-
posed that there should be a limited representation of
local interests, in the Committee, but they considered
that the local interests ought to be made subservient
to the public interests. The Committee, therefore,
recommended this resolution to the consideration
of the House, bearing in mind that the experi-
ment was only recommended for the present session.
He should propose that this Committee should be
composed of five gentlemen totally unconnected with
the local interests of the particular places in which
the line lay. The number of Bills which were con-
stantly under the consideration of the House, and the
vast expenses which were occasioned to parties under
the present system, and the time occupied in the in-
vestigation, rendered it a most important element
for the consideration of the House. He was not
aware that there was any other important point to
which it was necessary for him to further allude, and
he should therefore conclude by moving a resolution
to the effect that, when any Bills were brought in to
apthorise the establishment of twe lines of railway to
one point, that they should be referred to one Com-
mittee.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen who had just sat down had involved some
most important points in his resolution. He thought
it was a question to see whether the House would
try the experiment of carrying on the private matters
of the country—in fact, whether a tribunal could not
be appointed to try private Bills, in the manner
suggested by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and which
might be also more largely and more effectively adopted
by investing those Committees with a judicial
character—(Hear, hear)—and, by purging them of
all personal interest, and also by diminishing their
numbers so much as to fasten upon each of those in-
dividual Members a particular responsibility, obtain
the result which they sought, and which was so much
desired by the public. This would tend to di-
minish the fearful expenses to which appli-
cants were subjected, and insure to those Com-
mittees that weight which impartiality alone
could give them, and which Committees on private
Bills did not possess now. He was not insensible to
the difficulties by which this matter was surrounded,
but still he should say that he was glad the experi-
ment was about to be made, and •an opportunity
afforded of trying how far it would be safe to carry
the experiment. There was another point of so
much importance that he could not help alluding to it.
He believed the number of Bills would require
ten Committees, which would call for the services of
about fifty Members. The main difficulty would be
to find Members who would devote their time to
private Bills in which neither themselves nor their
constituents had any interest. The working of the
plan depended entirely on gentlemen devoting their
time to private Bills, and consenting to investigate those
that might be referred to them. He hoped there
might be no difficulty in finding fifty gentlemen to
undertake the duty. He could only say that he gave
his hearty support in the main to those resolutions.
In some points he did not agree with them, but they
were not points of essential importance ; in the main
spirit and tenor of these resolutions he entirely con-
curred. They were a great experiment, and a novelty
that he had always desired to see applied. He hoped
they would have a fair trial, and he should not despair
of this being the first step towards putting the private
business of the House on a sounder foundation. If
the House could effect this they would effect a very
salutary change, and do that which would tend to
raise the character of the House in the eyes of the
public.

After a few words from the Duke of WELLINGTON
and the Marquis of NORMANDY in explanation,

Lord CASIPBELL said he feared much time
would not be gained by bringing the matter before
the Board, considering the opinions that had been ex-
pressed by two Members of it, Judges Jackson and
Lefroy. The Noble and Learned Lord defended the
conduct of his countryman, the Bishop of Kildare,
who, he felt sure, did not do anything harsh in this
case, nay, very little responsibility was attached to him.
The Bishop of EXETER contended that the
rector of the parish was bound to apply the bequest
in the manner most calculated to promote the prin-
ciples of the Established Church. He cared not
whether there were 70 or 700 Papists in the school,
the principle remained the same. The Right Rev.
Prelate defended the conduct of Judges Jackson and
Lefroy, and said he was glad to see that they had the
manliness to act upon their opinions. Did the na-
tional system of education, he would ask Noble Lords,
carry out the principles of the Established Church,
and did it not rather pander to the feelings and preju-
dices of Roman Catholics and Dissenters ?

Lord MONTEAGLE reminded the Right Rev.
Prelate that the system of national education had ob-
tained the sanction of the Protestant Primate, the
Archbishop of Cashel, the Bishop of Killaloe, the
Provost of Trinity College, and Mr. Leslie Foster.
The system was working well, and he trusted nothing
would occur to embitter those sectarian differences
which the national education system was doing so
much to remove.

Mr. H. HINDE said there was no information
before the House to induce it to come to a contrary
conclusion from that of former sessions. Before he
was called on to give his vote, he thought he was
entitled to see the evidence that had influenced
the Committee in coming to this decision. No-
tice was only given of, these resolutions on Friday,
and between that day and the present was the time
when Members had the least chance of considering
these things. Alterations had lately been made with
regard to the Standing Orders affecting Railway
Bills, but they had not turned out to be of the most
felicitous character. The Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Gladstone) ought to give them some days for
consideration. If he 'did not grant this,- he must at
all events request him to afford the House a little
more information on the subject of the fifth reso-
lution. What, however, he (Mr. Hinde) should most
prefer would be a Committee of five gentlemen who
were for excluding all local interest whatsoever. A
system such as this would he far preferable to any
yet proposed, and would give greater confidence to
the country, and enhance the characterof the House.
Mr. EWART said ha heard, with the greatest-
satisfaction, the proposition of the Right Hon, Gen-
tleman, and he believed the House and the country
would join with him in that satisfaction. He agreed
with the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last in the
opinion' that when a' new principle was intro-
duced it ought to be worked out. He hoped that the
principle which the Right Hon. Gentleman now in-
troduced with regard to railways would be applied
to all private Bills, for it was equally applicable to
all private Bills. He was ,sorry the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite and the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the late President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Labou-
chere), did not give him a mdre ardent support than
they had done, when two sessions ago he brought for-
ward a proposition on the subject. The principle now in.;
troduced would remove all local and personal interest:
He thought it was better that the number of the
Committee should be diminished to five. The prin-
ciple had been most satisfactorily introduced into the
House of Lords. There. was not a Member of the
House of Lords who was not satisfied with the mode
in, which, the principle had worked. The Parliamentary
agents agreed that the system had worked well. In 1839
they said that this principle ought to be applied to all
private Bills. In Committees on private Bills with
regard to rate's,"" and a variety of other things, circum-
stances, riot only of a • local, but of a political cha-
racter were introduced. If he wanted the highest
authority as to the utility of the principle, he need
only appeal to the opinion of the Right Honourable
Gentleman in the chair and 'Mr. Greene, the
chairman of Committees, who, many years ago,
proposed to diminish the number of Members
on Committees, to increase their responsibili-
ties, and to remove all local. and perional influence.
The principle of the present proposal was sound, and
would receive the approbation, not only of that 'House
but of the country. He was convinced that the time
was not ' far distant when the same principle
would be extended to all private Bills.
Colonel SIBTHORP said it was very well known
to that House, and very well known to the country,
that he had a great, an unchanged, and, he rather
thought, an unchangeable suspicion, in reference to
railways.--(Hear.) In his opinion, private pro-
petty ought to be treated with as much deli.,
cacy as ,any public- department of the Government.
He was surprised that the late Vice-Pre-
sident of the 'Board of Trade a Liberal,
forsooth,--should wish to limit these inquiries to five
permanent Members, selecting each other for the
office which they underted; to perform. He did not
mean to impugn the character of these five persons,
but he thought it- was hardly fair to submit great
local interests to the control of so small a body,
The Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by moving
that the further consideration of the Report be post-
poned till this day week.
Mr. WALLACE had always contended for the
adoption of a- different principle in the appointment of
these Committees, and he was glad to find that his
opinions were gaining ground in high quarters. Tle
thought that no difficulty ought to be thrown in the

The Bishop of EXETER wished to hear from
the Noble and • Learned Lord (Lord Campbell), he
being the gravest law-authority in the House, as
Lord Cottenham was not then in his place, whether it
would be according to law for a clergyman of a parish
interested, as in this case, in a bequest, to apply it
to the puposes of education according to the princi-
ples of the Established Church ?
Lord CAMPBELL jocosely observed, that as the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack was the
highest legal authority in the House, he must refer
the Right Reverend Prelate to him for an answer.
Lord LYNDHURST.—The Right Rev. Prelate
is himself, I should say, the gravest authority on such
a. point.—(Much laughter.)
The matter then dropped, and the petition was laid
on the table.

Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter to Eigl
o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 4.
Tht SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'Clock.

DEVIZES ELECTION.
The SPEAKER informed the House that he had
received a communication from the examiner of the
recognisances in the case of the petition against the
return for Devizes, who reported that the sureties on
that petition were unexceptionable.
RAILWAY BILLS.
On the motion of Lord RENDLESHAM, the
Beccles Navigation Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed.

Mr. G. DUNCAN presented a petition from
Dundee, in favour of the Edinburgh and Glasgow
Railway Bill. _
Sir F. TRENCH presented a petition from Scar-
borough, in favour of the Scarborough Railway Bill.
On the motion of Mr. WILSON PATTEN, the
Manchester and Birmingham (Macclesfield and Poyn-
ton branches) Railway Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed.

Mr. GREENALL presented a petition against
the Norwich,and Grantham Railway Bill.
Mr. ESCOTT presented a petition from Exeter
against the South Devon Railway Bill.
Mr. PATTISON presented a petition from various
parts of London against the 41st clause in the Great
Western Railway Extension Bill.
Mr. RUSSELL _ said the Company had decided
upon withdrawing this clause. They were also ready
to submit to any provisions which the Committee
might recommend, or Parliament Might think proper
to adopt.

SOUTH DEVON RAILWAY BILL.
Mr. C. RUSSELL moved the second reading of
this Bill.

Mr. S. HERBERT rose for the purpose or stating
that very grave objections had been made to this Bill.
The Board of Admiralty had received several memo-
rials from persons interested, in the neighbourhood of
Exeter. In consequence of their representations, the
Board of Admiralty had sent down Mr. Walker to
examine into the matter. He should, therefore, make
no objection to the second reading of this Bill, pro-
vided a distinct assurance were given by the pro-
moters of the Bill that the Committee would not b 3
appointed until after Mr. Walker's report should be
received.

Mr. C. RUSSELL was ready to accede to so rea-
sonable a proposition.
Lord SEYMOUR wished to know at what time
Mr._Walker's report might be expected. •

Mr. S. HERI3ERT said he expected it' n about a
fortnight.
The Bill was then read a second time.
On the motion of Mr. AINSWORTFI, the Bolton
Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed.

• • RAILWAY BILLS.
Mr. GLADSTONE, in rising to propose the re-
solutions of which he had given notice, respecting
Railway Bills, said, he would take tbat opportunity
of making a few observations upon the subject of
those resolutions. A question had been raised
before the Committee on Railways with re-
spect to competing lines. It was, intended oTh

way of the formation of competing lines. It vias,flt
only way of mitigating the existing monopoly ,
_Air
thought that the further consideration of these rM,I
tions ought to be postponed. In the infancy ofralinn
he had endeavoured to prevent the establishme 'bot
these monopolies by permitting competing
Mr. Spring Rice, the then Chancellor of the
of .r,:.;._„se
quer, had overborne him, and persuaded the 0 (71,,
that it was in the power of the Ministerwi
Crown at any time to prevent the establi!P!,
of monopoly by imposing taxes on the rail .10
The railway interest, had, however, prove'
strong for the Ministry. He wished in eye
stance in which capital sufficient could be Ose.
to see a competing line of railway establishod4
could not see why railways should be del.els,
against_ competition any more than turnpike'lo
He should vote for the amendment, and if the ,10
Member would not press it to a division, be Ty
Wallace) would take the sense of the House 011
subject.
ir
Sir JOHN HANMER said that considerable
terest had been excited among the proprietor"...
steam-packets in consequence of a report that lroti
the intention of several Railway Companies to it_
their surplus capital to the establishment of ate
packets in connexion with their several lines' Q.
was aware that that subject was fitter for the czcit
sideration of the Committee than of the Houses It
if such a course of proceeding were permitted;,
would tend to aggravate the evil of the e
monopoly.
Mr. ESTCOURT would support the rese tot)!
because a similar resolution had been agreed ~tbst
the Committee of Selection, and as a Member or
Committee he felt bound to support it. At the sit
time he could not but admit that the adoption ot
resolution was an abandonment of the principle
whMr. had hitherto acted. ilt JAMES STUART WORTLEY wish„ 000
be understood, if they were to come to a vote 11010
the resolutions at once, his vote would be give tie
the grounds laid down by the Right Hon. Gelb,
man (Mr. Gladstone) in the opening of his sPa:lr
and not on the grounds laid down by the 1:1°P'0,0
.
tleman, the Member for Newcastle. It was beg
what startling to him (Mr. J. S. Wortley) T ejice
that Hon. Gentlemen maintain that all local iungthese
and local action should be excluded from 00
Committees. It was impossible for any„
who had watched for a few years
progress of private Bills in that House, not
i
that the influence of parties locally nterestet•of
been materially diminished. Such a portion as'4,o
remained could hardly be looked upon as other;6o,
legitimate. In giving his vote in favour of the 40
lutions it must be understood that he did so Mere'
an experiment.
,„1
eft°
Lord SANDON said he totally differed ex
those Honourable Members who desired the
sion of all local influence and local mediatioefo
course of private Bills through that House. •I'teft4',
not prepared to give his support to any such P' $
tion. They must consult the local interest),
their constituents either in that House, °
the Committees to which private Bills wereeria
ferred. If they were precluded from coust.oos
and attending to those interests in Committee,lio
only in that House they could endeavour to 'O,O
and this, he thought, ought, if possible, to be aLs
It would not be worthy of so large and impeV,,
assembly to do so—it was not the best place' 1001
nor the best way to effect that which they uticolli
it their duty to their constituents to attempt. 1'
toeitlf
be better that such business should be done lye
in Committee, than scrambled for in that
tal
The question was, would they be able to find '4O
cient number of independent Members -who., 'oil
no local interest or connexion with the Bab 00'
give sufficient attention and time to its considersor teo
So long as they confined themselves to fire .011
Committees, they might be successful, but.tteof
would they do if they had forty or fifty Comtalorteft
He did not think that an experiment with five !„0
Committees would be sufficient. For theserffle
he would give rather a reluctant consent to ta''
tion before the House.
ti
Mr. GREENE said, the great and prac,ereF.,.
pection to the old system was that the in"-'„1
arties were in reality the judges with re sciejco
railway matters. Even the existence of Or soe
would form a sufficient ground for appointil4.o),
other tribunal than that which was regarded as r
After some years' experience of private Bill.s'?:nioik
House, he still adhered most firmly to the Solt
which he had long entertained, that it, was d:re
to render these Committees as nearly judicial
sible ; and he believed that the present
step towards securing that object. dot'
Dr. BOWRING was aware that, indePelimil
anything like political interests, there was
local influence actuating some of the decis'
those Committees. He could say that, from o'i,„e
ed,
tion, those Committees had not been impr°,,ao,ll,,'
far either as local or the public interests were
ethaatgrbeyeddowinigthawthaye
with any
yMienitirait7ta:o
Lancashire, that nots„,6"
that could be attached to a member of the
of being actuated by motives arising from 'L
terests, it would tend most materially to elevate TA
ivotti
character of that Committee. The measure ,sn
tend to give the Committee a judicial charaator
also to enforce the attendance of the Metal'''. -
the more efficient discharge of their duties. dv:;
Mr. STRUTT said he believed the feeling,..4 bee
many
House was, that, in cases injustice net,
done in consequence of the influence of local 111,4,01:01,;
Such was his opinion, because he had (n1or",
observed that a particular question had beel' Ord
by a majority of the Committee, although :+0,0"
who were quite unconnected - with localoir7ol6e:s
dissented from the resolutions of the C Of;
By the fact of those tribunals beil4,‘„ylv`r
to be impartial, all appeals against the
cisions would be lessened. As a Merabe_Ofin 0:f1
Committee of Selection he must say, in auswr„,:go
Hon. Members for Taunton and Oxford, that
no difficulty in getting the attendance of.
SA 10
Although many Honourable Members
jetted to this resolution, yet they had not P.17001F
proposed any one in substitution of them-
fectly agreed in the principle of this resolutio";moYo
Mr. DENISTOUN expressed his opiilio_Au
constituents would be much better satisfieu
public Committee.

After a few words from Mr. JAMES,
1, The House divided, ,when there appearo, v". '
Tor the resolutions
Against them ' 3
/
Majority for the resolutions l9
The resolutions were then read seriatim- l‘fr,
In answer to a recommendation from
BOUCHERE that the House should be 1311", Pcdl the „tie,
zession as quickly as possible of the names ,0". „oil; Lin
Members thelGovernment proposed for t:ne 1,1
Mr. GLADSTONE said the list should be woo
the table of the House that evening, andbe A.
om
propose it to-morrow,—(Hear hear.) aleo
Mr. S. CRAWFORD. 'presented a Pet'''.
Rochdale against the Qas Bill.
rteu n 5. oleif
MESSAGE FROM TAR La„ n,
on ci
t
Messengers fr..bm the Lords rep
Lordships had, agreed to the amendments PO'
o ti
the Counttnns, in (we believe) the Racing.
Bill.

sessions
Ist day (
hishmeni
the offen
tent or
hers in e
the lowe
each yea
6nement
1),,r).0(1 o
vr. the
January
imprison
unpri!
tore the
flitted, ,
colonies
bldepotE
of eorpol
"eh of t
harnenta

Mr. 13
the
oonie D
collect
second
tyould 134
stated th
to
be_dei
they the;
Sir j.
that the
poor-lave
14trodue
~
netorie,
the Holt
°t{liBCllB
1,
• Until thi
could
IleW PO(
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aCCOII

. .
POOR-LAW BILL.
in Coy
Mr. J. S. WORTLEYgave notice thatw, 511°pt
mittee on the, Poor-law Amendment Bill, 100."‘
move, in the sQcond clause, to substitute OP` •
the six months therein named. " C0141:11.g
THE WIDOW OF COLONEL FAQ' hrior
Captain BERNAL gave notice thath sijoao
e,
up the Report of the Army Estimates/ secrtt,
move for a copy of the letter from!lief:0;0
tary-at-War to the widow of .Colonei .
notwh bichec6aoed
conveyedrd the,
herinfo olrmiatiaconc,out
thatn ap p 99
of tha b°
which' her husband met his death. tOt of
Mr. STAFFORD e O'BRIEN wave notisetobervi
would to-morrow move for a return of the %tills, tt°
,been
in England and Wales in which c 11613;., too
been appointed up to the Ist of January lets' 130
number of inmates at that period. re
Mr. S: CRAWFORD gave notice that be °lea Flf
'
ev.enitg, on the motion that the Speaker tiooe
Chair, for the House• to go into Committee., sOm
move a resolution to the effect , that the larni.
foree.now kept up was dangerous to civil liber. tp
motie
Mr. WILLIAMS also gave notice of tbe
maoU at the same period. ; 131
' The SPEAKER said that the notices Pe:rdool.;
two Hon.TMheeMybehrads were not
abnotthstorsaeewt hricillhivt,ereootiorct
given. .
House went into Committee, to make the,,,,ord7
which they had given notice, but it was-s°t
'the ordinary practice of the Honse.
• MILITARY PUNISHMENTS: ber..,ber
Mr. HUME moved for an address, prartltt'e naP'itio
jesty to lay before the House abstracts of „iticeber,
of men belonging to the Royal Marines lot.'pecen:loo'
Ist day of January, 1839, to the 31st day Doe 101.
1843, have suffered corporal punishment ;loses, d'
ment; showing the nature of offences, 1111 g stic,ber,
which such punishment has been aw-arclu"tes'totna
number in each class; and showing the gre4iongetraeo
and the smallest number of lashes, also 'the tool' cot
shortest period of confinement awarded as t) osetipil
to each person, and the average period ni ecoif so' ofa
for each class of offence. Of the numW rwitsie 003
belonging to the Royal Artillery in Gregtf,; -1' 03390,0t1
ry'9,3 orP
Ireland who, between the Ist day of Jann't
the 31st day of December, 1843, have s*J:ere saleil„ ih.
punishment or imprisonment; showine, Ft,'" tbo,
the offences, in classes, for' which such co rl3°, 0%00
ment or imprisonment has been a'bvar de7reate rtes
number in each class; and showing also it ie7o3dshe
the
the smallest number of lashes, also the long! is out; an a oh°
period of ednfinement awarded as pulli2llulittirilqepil*
average period for each class of offences ; -r
number of soldiers belonging to regimen's Ist nfbl
in Great• Britain and Ireland, who, since 1":01
menu
aorry,imlBp3r9iso, hnamveentsu; ffeanrded,
wehitehneervercoei ri,trecicoolr "epotliittit
punishment Or imprisonment has been it ofLr
same persOn more than once specifying 110 0001Tooe
.has been so inflicted.; With a'bstract of
...IL :0,001...
soidiers belonging to regimoUtii-in—the evV7.

It voili
Iypo ,
reschl
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3f rails'.
sholent
bat
he Exell,e;
the
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lblishlP:„s/11
railvv".
roved t°ll,
every
11,5
§ilbserlije
shed. Pej
deferscli
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the 11,iff°11'
), he (1;
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of stesitfive
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