The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-14 00:00:00

passed from which emanated the academical scheme for Ire-
land. He had seconded the chief of those resolutions. His
had earnestly hoped, for many years, to see in the district with
which he was connected, one of those great seminaries esta-
blished. But great as was his desire, he would rather waive
all expectation of this advantage for years to come, rather
than see the measure which the Government had proposed
carried, so much did he feel that it would be emp'oying a power
such as that which they had assumed in a manner most in-
'urious to the country. Parliament were about to spend the
money of freland—( Hear, hear, " the money of Ireland l")—
the money of Ireland, in the establishment and endowment
of institutions which were opposed by the feelings of the greater
portion of the whole community.
Mr. COLQUHOUN said that he should have said but
little on this question had it not been for the last words which
the Hon. Member had uttered. This question had been sub-
jected to discussion during several weeks, and he had now come
with his single protest against a measure which had received
the approval of the community at large, and yet stating that he
is the representative of the whole people of Ireland. The
Hon. Member desired this measure for his own neighbour-
hood, and stated that he was a member of the Committee
over which the Hun. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse) had
presided, and by whom the resolution for those very institu-
tions had been passed ; and yet he came down to the House
at this the last moment to set aside the resolution to which he
was a party. He came to set aside the Hon. Member for
Waterford, and all the other Members of the Committee on
this measure, and assuming the position of dictator, or, rather,
deputy dictator—( Hear, hear, and a laugh )--sought to undo
all that hitherto had been done. He came fresh from the
Conciliation-hall, where, having abandoned his duty in that
House, he had aided in promoting that most mischievous agi-
tation—( Hear, hear)—which was destroying the capital, and
uprooting the best interests of the country.—( Hear, bear. )
Ho (Mr. Colquhoun) would now turn to the question which
he desired to put to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Home Department. He referred only to one clause,
and he did not desire to raise a debate upon it. The 23d
clause stated that " no student of each or any of the acade-
mical institutions should be compelled by any rule of the col-
lege to attend any theological lecture or religious instruction
other than those which should be approved of by his parents
or guardians." He (Mr. Colquhoun) could not clearly un-
derstand this, and there was a doubt whether the students at
these institutions should attend any religious instruction what-
ever or not.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the words had been inserted
with a view to make the clause as precise as possible. There
would be no regulation imposed by the Bill, for the object was
to render education as free as possible. But it was quite open
to the professors and other authorities of the college to make
bye-laws which would be of force after they had been submitted
to the Queen. So that each college could make its own re-
gulations.
Mr. M. GIBSON protested against any Member presuming
to blame another for taking the particular course which he
thought best. To his view this was the most important stage
of the Bill, and the one in which he individually as a Member
was most deeply interested. What was it they were going to
vote away the money of the country for—the establishment of
these colleges? We are not going to appropriate the money of
any particular party. We are going to appropriate the
money belonging to the general revenue of the United King-
dom.—( Hear.) He was beset by various opinions from dif-
ferent parties on the subject of collegiate education. He had
been told by several individuals that it was very questionable
whether the endowment of these colleges would accomplish the
object which was contemplated. It had been contended that
these corporate establishments were places in which ignorance
would be taught and wickedness inculcated, rather than encou •
ragement being given k learning and morality; but he would
hope, that from these establishments the advancement of learn-
ing might be-expected ; there was, however, one point in the
measure which appeared to him susceptible of improvement.
It was not sufficient to put professors into the different chairs
of the colleges with independent incomes, without some
gentleman would move stringent inducements to exert them-
selves for the good of their pupils. He considered
that no man would make any strenuous exertions without being
necessarily compelled to do so ; and therefore he thought
that professors, with comfortable incomes, who were totally
independent of support from their pupils, were not the
persons who were likely to he very active in promoting learn-
ing among them. He would have wished to have seen them
provided partly with salaries from the State, and partly with
emoluments to be derived from their pupils. 'W ithout this
accelerative agent to exertion, they would relapse into mere
Oxford and Cambridge professors. They would only remember
they had their salaries to receive, and would forget that they
had a duty to perform.—( Hear hear.) There was one point
in the College Bill, which provided that the Civil Government
of the coutry should interfere with the administration of the
institutions. If the Civil Government should persevere in
making this endowment the mere instrument of priestly power
and domination, it would never be possible to achieve any per-
manent improvement in the progress of learning. Priests
ought not to be allowed to interfere with the teaching of
science, mathematical philosophy, and secular things. There
were cases where they could administer their duties—there
were cases in which their consolation might be given. There
were many Honourable Gentlemen who were adverse to him
in opinion, and his opinion was that a priest or a clergyman was
the last man, instead of the first, who ought to control educa-
tion. Knowing the part that his HON. Friend had taken in
the question of education,he regretted to hear him give counte-
nance to that unfortunate position that they could not teach
secular education without mixing it at the same time with
religions instruction. He could not see why they could not
teach mathematics or astronomy without making it the medium
of conveying religious truth. He regretted that he had occu-
pied the time of the House so long, and he sat down expressing
his desire to exclude all religious interference with secular
education.
Mr. VERNON SMITH wished to know from the Speaker,
whether giving his support to the resolution on the present oc-
casion would preclude him from opposing it at a future period?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM thought that it did not preclude
any Gentleman from rejecting any clause introduced into the
Bill in Committee. He only knew that no larger sum from
the Consolidated Fund could be proposed. He did not know
whether there was any power of reducing it.
The SPEAKER said that it depended entirely en the Com-
mittee on the Bill to reject it or not. The Committee on the
Bill might either reject the clause or reduce the amount.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that this was peculiarly a ques-
tion for the House of Commons, and it ought not to be allowed
to go over as merely private. It could not be doubted for a
moment that that was the time for discussing the principle of
the Bill. If he wanted to discover the wisdom of the House,
he found it on the present occasion, for he found a proposition
put, which, if allowed to pass in silence, might be turned
against them afterwards, and it might he said that they had
allowed it. He took it that religion should be mixed tip with
education as well as anything else. It was one of the means by
which men's minds might be directed to action. A great deal
had been said in Conciliation-hall about the Bill, and about the
conduct of that House in regard to Ireland generally. The
Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Smith O'Brien) had ac
cused that Howe of neglecting the interests of Ireland.•
(Hear, hear.) He had, in his addresses at Conciliation-ha

,
accused it of endeavouring, through the instrumentality of
that Bill, to corrupt the intellect of Ireland. How this was
to he done, however, he (Mr. Roebuck) could not conceive,
unless the teaching of scientific knowledge was to do that.—

Hear, hear.) It was proposed to teach the students surgery
and mathematics, and also, he presumed, chemistry, geology,
and arithmetic; yet this, according to the language of
the Hon. Member, was to corrupt the intellect of Ire-
land.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear." and cheers.) Such
a proposition could only be made as a clap-trap to attract
vulgar observation, and by those who were afraid that good
measures would put an end to their selfish agitation.—(Hear,
hear.) Those who paid attention to the proceedings of these
parties would see what value was to be attached to the words
of men who asserted that the measure was intended to corrupt
the intellect of Ireland. This was a true sample of the
assertions made use of against the people of England, and
against that House. This cry was raised against those who
supported this and similar measures in that House, at a time
when, in a spirit of just and honourable conciliation, they were
endeavouring to do what, he admitted, had not previously been
done—to act justly and fairly towards Ireland.--( Hear, hear. )
The Members of that House bad laid aside religious feelings,
and gone in the face of their constituencies in supporting mea-
sures for Ireland ; and yet, in the face of this, they were
met by a charge of improper motives—(Hear, hear)—
that of attempting to corrupt the intellect of the people of
that country.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask what could be
the state of mind, what the intellects of those parties who
could have suggested such a proposition ?—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) He had the highest respect for those Irish Members
who attended that House to assist them in the examination
and discussion of questions affecting Ireland. He honoured
them for the great sacrifice they had made in doing their duty
notwithstanding the brow-beating and intimidation that had
been resorted to, to deter them—but ho could not understand
what it was that took certain Members at one moment to the
stage of Conciliation-hall,to excite national animosities, narrow-
minded bigotry, vulgar prejudice, and to spit their venom be-
cause they thought themselves secure, attributing every im-
proper motive to that House, and then coming over here to
repeat the trash which had gained them so much approbation
there.—( Loud cheers.) This was a course of proceeding which
he could not understand, and which it would be hard to justify.
He could not understand what the Hon. Member to whom he
referred was after, unless it were to excite the base passions of
the vulgar, for the purpose of selfish gain.—( Hear, hear.) On
no other plea could he understand the proceedings at Concilia-
tion-hall, for hej could nut see the necessity of such proceed-
ings for the freedom of the people. He had shown no want
of respect for the people of Ireland in the observations he had
made, as he was sure the people of that country would under-
stand the measure by and by. He was willing to rest the mea-
sure on the power of truth. Let them do their duty, and their
duty it was, without fear or affection, to educate the people of
Ireland—and a large body of the people of that country would,
he was sure, respond to them in a becoming spirit. If they
acted from a sincere desire to do justly towards the Irish people,
and would in a spirit of kindness, toleration, and goodness,
bring forward such measures as the present, they would not
only secure their hearty sympathy, but soon witness the last
throes of an expiring faction—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said that, considering the very per-
sonal remarks that had been made upon himself, he wished to

say a few words in vindication. The Hon. Member had
brought to bear on the subject the concentrated venom of
three months.

Sir R. INGLIS rose to order. He did not object to
the Hon. Member vindicating himself, but considered the
House ought not to permit a personal attack on the Hon. and
Learred Member who had just spoken. An opportunity ought
certainly to be allowed the Hon. Member for Limerick of de-

fending himself, but he (Sir R. Inglis) thought the present
personal altercation should not he allowed.—( Hear. )
Mr. OSBORNE would call the House to the question. The
Hon. Member for Limerick had no doubt acted as he had done

from the want of practice in speaking in that house, and the
mode of address he had acquired at Conciliation-hall.—( Hear,
and laughter.) The Hon. Member was proceeding to address
the House on the question, when he was interrupted by
Sir H. BARRON, who rose to a question of order. If the
question of order was disposed of, then the Hon. Member for
Limerick was in possession of the House, and no other had a
right to speak until that Hon. Gentleman had given his ex-
planation.—(Cries of " Order" and " Chair, chair."
The SPEAKER said as the House was not in Committee,
the Hon. Gentleman ( 51r. S. O'Brien) had
_a right to speak in

explanation, but had no right to reply. lie considered that
the lion. Member for Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis) was jus-
tified in calling the lion. Member for Limerick to order.
‘..

Sir R. INaLIS said he had only called the lion. Gentle-
man to order because the course he was taking was not a vin-
dication of himself, but a personal attack upon another party.
Lord J. MANNERS moved that the Hon. Member for
Limerick be heat d by the House.
Sir J. GRAHAM suggested a course which would get rid
of the difficulties. If the House was allowed to go into Com-
mittee, the Hon. Member for Limerick would then have an
opportunity given him of making any statement he might think
proper to offer.—( Hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE intimated that be would postpone his mo-
tion relative to Trinity College till Monday next, as it could
not be brought forward Conveniently at the present time.
After a few words from Lord J. RUSSELL, the Home
itself resolved into a Committee of Supply.
Sir J. GRAHAM then moved that the sum of 100,0001, be
appropriated out of the Consolidated Fund for the founding and
establishing academical institutions in Ireland, and 21,0004 from the same fund for the annual endowment of the said in-
stitutions.

Ou the Question being put,
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said the Hotue had listened, not