The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 29.
ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Usher of the Black Rod summoned the House of
Commons to their Lordships' bar to hear the royal com-
mission read for giving the royal assent to several Bills.
The Lords Commissioners were, the Lord Chancellor,
the Duke of Buccleuch, and the Earl of Shaftesbury.
The following Bills received the royal assent :—The
Assessed Taxes Composition Bill, Detached Parts of
Countiesßill, District Prisons and Courts Bill, Marriages
(Ireland) Bill, Soap Allowances Bill, Sudbury Disfran-
chisement Bill, Actions for Gaming Discontinuance Bill,
Parish Clerks Bill, Parish Constables Bill, Butter and
Cheese Bill, Western 'Australian Bill, Loan Societies
Bill, Colonial Postage Bill, Linen Manufactures (Ireland)
Bill, Gaspe Fisheries Bill, Brighton, Lewes, and
Hastings Railway Bill, Croydon and Epsom Railway
Bill, Wells Harbour Bill, Wells Improvement Bill,
London Gas Bill, Mariners Life Assurance Company's
Bill, Mackenzie's Estate Bill, and Archbutt's Divorce Bill.
Their Lordships resumed.
The Land Tax Commissioners Names Bill passed
through Committee.
Lord HAWARDEN presented a petition from the
Hull and Selby Railway Company against certain clauses
in the Railways Act.
GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord GLENGALL moved the second reading of this
Bill.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he would nut
oppose the Bill. But most certainly if the Bill had been
brought on at an earlier part of the session, he would have
moved the insertion of some new clauses and the omission
of others. The Bill consisted of 157 clauses, and their
Lordships would see the necessity of its being printed
before they came to be considered in Committee.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be printed.
DEBTORS AND CREDITORS BILL.
On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM this Bill was
read a third time and passed.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES REGISTRATION
BILL.
Lord DALHOUSIE moved the second reading of
this Bill, observing that he could not ask their Lordships
to proceed further with it in that stage at present, as it
had only just been printed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—COMMITTEES.
Lord REDESDALE said that it would not be neces-
sary for him to press the motion of which he had given
notice for the suspension of the standing orders for the
purpose of enabling Committees to proceed with the
presence of only three peers. The notice which had been
taken of the inconvenience, had drawn the attention of
Noble Lords to the subject, and the full number of peers
had undertaken to attend to the Committees to the end of
the session. One Noble Lord had written to him (Lord
Redesdale), to say that he would, if his attendance
would be useful, come up from a distant part of the
country to give his services on Committees.—(Name,
name.) It was Lord Byron.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from the Earl of Wicklow, Lord
Brougham, and other Peers, the notice was withdrawn.
The Transfer of Property Bill was read a third time
and passed.
Messengers from the Commons brought up the Con-
troverted Elections Bill, and various other Bills, which
were severally read a first time.
THE UNLAWFUL OATHS BILL (IRELAND).
Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the third reading of
this Bill.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that he and
some noble friends of his were much dissatisfied with
the present aspect of affairs in Ireland, and they were un-
willing that the session should close without their having
an opportunity- of expressing their views on that subject.
He thought that no measure could better afford that op-
portunity than the present Bill. It was not desirable
that the Bill should pass before it was known what the
Government intended to do in respect to the late trials,
upon which it appeared that policemen acted as spies,
upon the old system.—(Hear, hear.) One clause of the
Act rendered any person liable to transportation if any
unlawful "pass-word" were found upon him, and it ap-
peared on the trials, that persons connected
with the police concealed such papers in the
houses of innocent people, and afterwards prosecuted
them. He hoped, therefore, that this Bill would be de-
layed until next week for the attendance of Irish noble-
men,'who would necessarily be absent for the remainder
of this week.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he thought he had
as good a right to press the 13ill on now for his con-
venience, as they had to keep him in town next week
and the week after, upon an Irish question.
After a few words from the Marquis of CLAN-
RICARDE,
Lord WHARNCLIFFE postponed the third reading
till Friday next.
The Party Processions Bill (Ireland) was read a third
time and passed.
Earl FORTESCUE gave notice that on Thursday he
would present a petition from the trustees of the Tiver-
ton turnpike, complaining of certain Post-office regula-
tions respecting the mails.
The Duchy of Cornwall Lands Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday.
The Turnpike Trusts Bill South Wales) was read a
second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday.
Lord BEAUMONT postponed till to-morrow, the
motion of which he had given notice respecting the re-
port on the Catholic Penal Acts Repeal Bill.
METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS BILL.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH moved the second read-
ing of the Metropolitan Buildings Regulation Bill. The
principle of the Bill had been already assented to by
the House in a former session. It was rendered neces-
sary by the imperfection of the Act of 1776, which
was now in force, but which was quite inadequate
to carry out its own enactments. In some cases
its provisions were too harshly and oppressively en-
forced, and in others they were too much relaxed.
The present Bill provided for the proper width
of streets, alleys, and courts, for the secure build-
ing of houses, for the construction of drains for every
house, for ventilation, the height of rooms, and the spaces
between the rear of houses. It provided also measures
for preventing the erection of houses in the metropolis
unfit for human habitation. All surveyors under
this Act would be required to pass an ex-
amination as to their qualifications. This was a
very desirable provision, for, under the existing
system, persons were appointed, who, however respect-
able in other respects, were wholly ignorant of the busi-
ness of a surveyor. It was proposed to appoint, with
salaries, certain official referees, who should determine
all disputes under the Act. There would also be a
registrar, to whom the surveyors would be required to re-
port their proceedings once a month. In the present system
it frequently occurred that a surveyor surveyed his own
buildings. The surveyor was frequently a builder, and
it was obvious that persons having houses to build
within his district had a strong inducement to employ
him as their builder. This Bill required that
when a surveyor was employed to build houses
in his own district, the official referee should
appoint another surveyor to survey such buildings. The
Act now in force was very unequal in the extent
of its application. For instance, part of Chelsea was
included, and the whole of Kensington was ex-
cluded froth it. He thought that the present Bill
would best be discussed in Committee, and all he
would now say was, that it would introduce
great uniformity into the law, and would be simple
and intelligible, and in many respects less stringent than
the present law. He only asked their Lordships to read
it now for the second time.
Lord CAMPBELL objected to the pressing on this Bill
at so late a period of the session. It had only come
up from the other House on the 22d of July,
yet it was as long as the Code Napoleon.
—(Hear, and laughter.) It contained one hundred and
eighteen clauses—(Hear, hear)—and was it to be ex-
peeted that their Lordships should sit down to examine
these clauses at this season, to the entire ne-
glect of every thing else? In fact, the Bill
could not go through Committee in less than a
month or five weeks, unless the committal were a
mere farce. Yet, it was important that the Bill should
be thoroughly examined, as it would affect property and
existing interests in the metropolis to a vast extent. As
far as he had examined the Bill, he found it imperfect,
in several respects, objectionable. Of course, he approved
of the principle, but he entirely disapproved of
the machinery. It was proposed to appoint a registrar,
and three official referees, with salaries of 1,000/ a year,
to be paid out of the county-rates. Again, he
admitted that it was right to interfere with
property when the public health or safety re-
quired it, but not otherwise. But the official referees
would have a power which had been taken out of the
hands of the Crown, to withhold the operation
of a prohibitory law, and to say Non obstut. The re-
ferees would have the power of withholding at their dis-
cretion the operation of the 118 clauses of which this Bill
consisted. It was quite clear that there would not be
time to discuss the Bill adequately, and he should,
therefore, move. as an amendment, that the Bill be read
a third time this day three months.
The Earl of CADOGAN was understood to say that
he agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord, that the
Bill was brought up at too late a period of the session to
be sufficiently considered.
The Earl of BESBOROUGH said that the Bill had
been prepared with great care, and he thought it would
be rather hard to throw it out on the second reading,
without a discussion in Committee. •
The Earl of KINNAIRD approved of much that was
contained in the Bill, but he was still of opinion that it
came too late into that House for this session. There
were several enactments proposed in it, for carrying out
which there was no provision. Amongst others, it was
proposed to turn out all those who lived in cellars and
other places in the metropolis unfit for human habita-
tion. But there was no provision for other dwellings for
them, nor was it proposed to facilitate the erection of
new buildings by juicing off the tax of ten per cent. on

that land of property. He should be sorry to see the
Bill lost altogether, but he thought it would be best to
pstpone it till the beginning of next session.

The Marquis fie SALISBURY regretted that the
Noble and Learned Lord opposite had thought it neces-
sary to oppose the Bill. He hoped their Lordships
would pass the second reading and allow the Bill to go
to the Committee. At the same time he complained of
the House of Commons loading their Lordships' table
with important Bills so lati in the session—some of these
Bills, like the present, containing 118 clauses. He
hoped the Noble and Learned Lord would withdraw his
amendment, and let the Bill be committed, with the
understanding that it should not proceed further until
the beginning of next session, an understanding that had
been come to in respect to other Bills.
Lord CAMPBELL said that if her Majesty's Go-
vernment would agree to the understanding proposed by
the Noble Marquis, he (Lord Campbell) would withdraw
his amendment ; but if the Noble Marquis was deter-
mined to press the Bill to a third reading this session, he
would take the sense of the House.

The Earl of WICKLOW agreed with the Noble
Marquis near him (the Marquis of Salisbury), that it
would be advisable to allow the Bill to go into Com-
mittee, in order that their Lordships might be the better
able to deal with it next year. He did not think that
the lateness of .the session was a good reason for re-
fusing to read a Bill the second time, because nobody
could tell how long the session might last.
Lord COTTENHAM said that he was surprised
to hear the Noble Earl say that the lateness
of the session was no objection to the second
reading of an important measure ; whereas, when the
Noble Marquis and the other Noble Lords round him
(on the Ministerial side) sat on that (the Opposition)
side of the House, it was a very frequent objection to
important measures that they were brought up too late.
—(Hear, hear.) This Bill was of very great importance,
affecting a vast amount of property in a range extending
to twelve miles round the metropolis. He was in the
same condition as most other Noble Lords as to this Bill,
that is, he had had very little opportunity of examining
its provisions. He found that it would interfere in a
very singular way' with the relations between landlord
and tenant. It would alter contracts, and yet allowed
either party to enforce the contract as so altered, even
though the other party should desire that the contract
should cease upon the alteration. The present law for
the abatement of nuisances was to be superseded, at the
same time that the Bill provided no practical means of
abatement instead. For these and several other objec-
tions he should support the amendment.

The Duke of BUCCLEUCH thought that the objec-
tions which he had heard were against the details of the
Bill, and not against the principle. He had purposely
put off the second reading of the Bill to this day, in
order that Noble Lords might have an opportunity of
reading it. But he found the same result in all cases.
He found that no matter how early a Bill was brought
into Parliament, no Member read it until the day it
came on for the second reading—except some one who
took a particular interest in it. He should consider it
his duty to press the second reading of the Bill ; and
also to move that it be committed, for he was convinced
that, with very little amendment, it could be made a
valuable measure.

Their Lordship then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
For the amendment 8
Majority —23
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed to-morrow (this day).
Several Bills on the table were forwarded a stage, and
the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 29.
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S BILL.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed
to, the House resumed, and the report was ordered to be
brought up to-morrow.
ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod summoned the
House to attend the Lords to hear the royal assent given
by Commission to various Bills (for which see Lords'
report), the names of which were communicated to the
House by the Speaker on his return.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE (MIDDLESEX) BILL.
On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM the Order of the
Day for the third reading of the Criminal Justice (Mid-
dlesex) Bill was read.
Mr. MACKINNON postponed some objections he had
to the Bill till the next stage, and the Bill was read a
third time.
Sir J. GRAHAM proposed an additional clause, the
object of which was to give the magistrate the power
of trying appeals eight times a year.
Mr. BODKIN approved of the clause, the object of
which was merely to restore to the magistrates the power
of trying appeals, which they possessed till a recent deci-
sion of the Court of Queen's Bench, which decided that
the exercise of that power was illegal.
After a short discussion the clause was agreedJo, and
the Bill passed.
FARMS BUILDINGS BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this Bill were read and
agreed to.
TRAFALGAR-SQUARE BILL.
The Lords' amendments to the Trafalgar-square, Bill
were read and agreed to.
Mr. FELLOWES presented a petition from certain
savings' banks praying for alterations in the Savings'
Banks Bill.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented petitions from
Clare and Armagh against the Charitable Donations and
Bequests (Ireland) Bill.
On the motion of Mr. HUME, the following return
was ordered :—Return of the several establishments
maintained for the prevention of smuggling in the United
Kingdom in each of the years 1842 and 1843 ; stating
under separate heads the expense in wages, salaries,
vessels, houses, &c. ; the expense of prosecutions by the
departments of Customs and Excise ; the amount of
produce of seizures of smuggled and illegal goods, the
share paid to the officers seizing them, and the amount
remaining to the Crown ; also, all other incidental
charges, so as to exhibit the entire charge, according to
the order of the House of the 7th day of July, 1825.
CHARITABLE BEQUESTS BILL.
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY wished to know from
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Home Department whether what was reported was true,
viz., that it was not the intention of the Lord Chancellor
to go on with the Charitable Bequests Bill. It was a
Bill by no means popular.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had not seen his
Noble and Learned Friend on the subject. It appeared
from the votes of the House of Lords that the Bill was
read a second time, and if it was withdrawn he supposed
it was in consequence of the opposition which it met
with from persons out of doors.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
BOOKS AND ENGRAVINGS BILL.
The Report on this Bill was brought up and received.
ART UNIONS BILL.
Mr. WYSE moved the second reading of the Art
Unions Bill. He said it was not his intention at that
stage of the Bill to raise any discussion, but he would
state that it was his intention to make considerable
alterations in the preamble, and also to object to the 2d
clause of the Bill.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he hoped the Right Hon.
Gentleman would postpone the Bill until the Chancellor
of the Exchequer was present.
Mr. WYSE said that he did not mean that the House
should stand to the principle of the Bill by consenting to
the second reading.
Mr. GLADSTONE said on that understanding he
would not oppose the second reading.
The Bill' was then read a second time and ordered to
be committed to-morrow.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL
This Bill passed through Committee and was ordered
to be reported to-morrow.
WOODS AND FORESTS ACCOUNT BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of LINCOLN this Bill
passed through Committee.
GRAND CANAL (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went through Committee on this Bill.
The Customs (New South Wales Bill) also went
through Committee.—Report to-morrow.
The report on the Slaughtering of Horses Bill was
brought up and received.
The report on the Protection of Purchasers (Ireland)
Bill was brought up.
The report was agreed to, after a short discussion.
COURTS OF COMMON LAW PROCESS (IRE-
LAND) BILL.
The report was received on this Bill, and the Bill was
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS
(IRELAND) BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM in proposing the second reading of
this Bill stated that he would shortly advert to the cir-
cumstances under which the measure had been brought
forward. It was impossible to conceive any subject of
greater national importance than this. There were three
principal defects in the existing Act. The first was the
constitution of the board, and the next was that of chang-
ing the uses pointed out by testators on the ground of
expediency ; and the third defect was the absence of the
power to endow with land in perpetuity. It was to re-
medy these defects that the present Bill was introduced.
There were three principal objections to the law as it at
present stood, which the present measure would remove.
In the fourteenth clause of the Bill there was a limita-
tion for the first time introduced with regard to the
thine of giving property, landed or personal, which should
be within a short time antecedent to the death of the tes-
tator or donor. It was a question of public and general
policy, and was quite open to discussion. He was of
opinion that some such limitation was necessary, consi-
dering the influence that might be used over dying per-
sons. Now he was bound to state, that he could only an-
ticipate one objection to the measure, as not being
entirely satisfactory to Roman Catholics, and that
objection, he was told, arose from a difficulty peculiar to
the form of the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical jurisdic-
tion, which was this—that the status of any person in
holy orders could not be decided by a person not himself
an ecclesiastic. He might, in passing, observe that it
was open to the discretion of the Crown to select a per-
son who, with regard to all the circumstances of the case,
should be the most entitled to the confidence of the Ro-
man Catholic body, and who would, at the same time,
enjoy the confidence of the Crown. He must also ob-
serve that the last resort of the board, as it was now to
be constituted, was not trust-worthy if a dispute arose.
In the law as it stood at present, an appeal was allowed
to the Lord Chancellor, who from the circumstance of
holding the great seal must necessarily be a Protestant.
Under the board, as it was to be now constituted, there must
be one Roman Catholic dignitary on it, and it was quite
clear that in the course of time either the Master of the
Rolls or the Chief Baron of the Exchequer would be a
Roman Catholic. This measure was framed in the
spirit of peace ; it was framed with regard to the cir-
cumstances of Ireland ; it •was not possible to offer any
eadowunatto the Roman Catholic clergy, which would

Ibl

)1,

• not be am, ptetl—(Hcar,Lear)-I.ut it was most desiT.,..
th•it a provision should be made to legalise the ofrelFPc
voluntarily made for the purposes of the Roman Cit
s'u°!ty
religion. That it might mitigate the discord and ospero
which unhappily too much prevailed in Ireland hem_'e
earnestly wished. It was tendered in the spirit of neet),''
—in that spirit he hoped it would be received. .tt,e
' hoped nothing had fallen from him to disturb that sPIP,,,
He trusted that this measure would form the corner so;
the
of that temple of peace which his Right Hon. Friend e•
pressed a hope might arise at no distant time, whell4
Queen of England should visit her Irish doininioint,„!,i,
appear on her "throne of the West," actuated by l'ulr
ings of kindness and benevolence towards all her •
jects, but in a particular manner towards a generowt
gallant, and still a loyal people.—(Cheers.)
The
Mr. M. queO'FEßßALstion having L
said tha been put,
if this Bill was 111,10
esel
in a spirit of peace and conciliation, he must be allowe'sot
observe that the terms in which it was conceived weretto
calculated to produce that effect. It was a great raisf°l." ,a 1
that in every measure introduced with regard to Irels,
ofit
some clause was introduced which spoiled the spirit
ieg
however wise and good it might be. There were cielllo
in this Bill that appeared to him most objectionable.o
Ireland the greatest feeling existed against everytelase
that touched the Catholic Church. In England th.fi;tile
was different ; but in Ireland they were imbued, "I,'
viers
deepest jealousy. The clause made the Comm be
removable at the pleasure of the Crown, "Illegal
thought extremely objectionable. The -Right the
Baronet had stated that it would be the pleasure lot
Crown to appoint prelates of the Catholic Church.,„? int
it might be the pleasure• of the Crown not to sPr ere
prelates of the Catholic Church ; and if they 11
of
to appoint Catholic laymen, the decisions the
the board would not be received by the
bishops. He objected also to the constitution of apd
board, which was to consist of eight Protestants ;a
five Catholics. The Bill was by no means acee
measure. In 1824 Lord Castlereagh had been it.ect
respondence with the Catholic hierarchy on the suulire.
The measure which was then proposed was much et rtta
rior to the present Bill, for it proposed to erecriAl
Catholic clergy into corporations, giving them the.::
of succession. He objected to the Bill because It tat
the first attempt at legislative interference witupar
Catholic religion, and he would recommend the G°l-tia
ment to pass those clauses only which related t°ll 0.
charitable boards, and to leave those clauses %Ole • in
terfered with the Catholic religion to another sessieto
for the Government had had ample time to consideclbsd
effect of the measure, while the parties intereste 0$
not had sufficient time afforded to consider what ls°
be the effect of the Bill.—(Cheers.) be
Lord ELIOT said the Government had reason 0.4
lieve the measure would be acceptable to the 11°,',,r
Catholic clergy of Ireland. The Bill had been, ," so
ported by Lord Normanby, whom the Hon. Gentled,
had often said was dear to the Catholics of Ire the
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had alluded,r vse,
observations of a Right Rev. Prelate in the other Pesd
and stated that they were of a sectarian charactertt 0
friendly to the perpetuation of the penal statutes; bided
he (Lord Eliot) apprehended, they were only dit(i put
towards the support of the Established Church, n° fact
in disparagement of any religion whatever. Illood
was the Bill was permissive, and not WO' of
and calculated to prevent concealment or Aue
appropriation of charitable funds. In Francel hI
~a
tria, and Belgium, no bequest could be accer-od
the Roman Catholic body without the cognizance le
consent of the Government of these countril•
France a curate could not be appointed without tneoght
sent of the Government. After the assurance of hi 50,100
Hon. Friend he thought the feelings of jealousy 0'
were expressed regarding interference with P
Catholics, entirely unfounded. Nog°
Mr. BELLEW thought the measure was "ha o°.
forward in a conciliatory and kind spirit, but tm-tbeso
vernment had not consulted those who could giye„bject
the most useful and practical information on the 7sitiL?
The Government was placed in an unfortunate P, oelr
—they had no Catholic in the Government,
words and actions were so much opposed, 013 f el
Roman Catholic body were naturally suspicious, ° ed,lo
measure they brought forward. The Bill continetice
his (Mr. Bellew's) opinion, both insult and inic7stsla
Ireland. Roman Catholics were always jealous °Joel
interference with their creed. Witness, for so"
the education question in France and in Belgllirtjaitl
of the junta in Gibraltar. The Noble Lord sin" 4p°'
curate could not be appointed in France ;"
the cognizance and consent of the Governmen pen
they were very different cases indeed. Franiq
the Roman Catholic clergy, but England olio
If the Government expected co-operation frcior°,
Catholic body, they must recognise the atithe,,erfa
the Catholic clergy in Ireland—it was too P° fle
to be dealt with on merely " tolerative " princiPlest4
would not vote against the second reading, buntnevieli
same time would be very desirous for the postP-
of the Bill. the
The Earl of ARUNDEL said he thought afire„
evinced a desire to conciliate the Roman Catholicest,:l r,
land on the part of her Majesty's Government' he
should therefore support it. He did not think t"s
tions which would come before the Commissionc of th
in any degree affect or interfere with the fait
~f r
people. sati,•ty
Sir R. PEEL said he had heard with great edits)
tion the speech of the Noble Lord—a speech cf.;esq,
to him, and just towards the intentions of her nTiaDe,
Government. Her Majesty's Government wer,„e•sie;
onced by no desire whatever in bringing this
.o', 1110,
forward, excepting a wish to correct that Which
understood had been complained of by the Rutile: P.
tholic population of Ireland, and to correct a fk,
the present law in respect to Roman Cathoh 0011
quests. (Hear, hear.) He thought he
~,pee
give the Noble Lord an explanation with sohleti
to this measure, which would confirm the nress,l
Lord in the i:npression which he had eity"
with that manliness and frankness so consistent Jive 0,1;
on all occasions, whenever he was called on to got tY4
opinion ; and so consistent also with the real factsisll3
case. He (Sir R. Peel) must also say, without dile
to provoke any controversial spirit, that be 11b whicof
with regret, which equalled the satisfaction lilt toot 6
he had heard the speech of the Noble Lord, the f rho
some of the speeches made on the other side;
House. Surely they might consider the bealootll"ii
intention of this measure without provoking „rel).l
debate on the appointment of Mr. O'Driscoll. f
was not necessary to refer in a debate on a.,Pi1'0°33., LD
sort, to the appointment of a law officer in Ire-tided
11
reference to such matters, in his opinion, le ty
show the spirit in which the comments were tor of
was said that they bad no knowledge whatevfe ire! Pt'
feelings of the Roman Catholic population doled,/
with respect to the existing law or its aaleal lie
Why. he, thought they might ascertalespo
opinions and feelings of the Romanuo 411 r
body' in reference to a publication 01"- Aro
received the sanction of the Roman Catholics eitig
ciation. That publication was written bf.,11:110
lawyer—a man with a deservedly high reputatweedato
publication had a great circulation, and was soil; bir rev
contain, in the fullest 'banner, the objections fa", ens dl
Roman Catholic body in Ireland with respect tgejee'doi
ments and laws which affected that class abet' de lie
subjects. In that publication complaint was catihico
the state of the law with respect to Rolnali,„ao #'o,4
w
charities. He would just read the express:„
were made use of by Mr. Scully, a gentle/070y
name was well known to Hon. Gentlemen oPProan
was stated in that publication, that "no Pe rOreill
safely give or grant any land, money, or other!, prly
to or for the permanent support of any Cath°, los° to
house of worship, school, or other charitah'est
tion in Ireland, subject, as such donations nllidatiotjor
serious doubts and difficulties. That such 1115;01
would probably be diverted to Protestanotiou
sof
tions, directly contrary to the donor's eterl,o
a prospect sufficiently disparaging to " 40'
rational person from making such donations; 00'0
with 'respect to the institution of the Board' ust tie se'
ble Trusts Commissioners, Mr. Scully we in ce 010
observe that this Commission deserved notice, catlioo
quence of its alertness in hunting &avod), ta
charities. It was now attempted to reebeio°,‘,l4
defects, and a Bill was now brought in to put Alfir,',g
manner of doubt the law with respect t° „„iltlote
bequests in Ireland, and to provide for the " the t
Roman Catholic chapels, and to provide f,_°rre o,lll,ete
endowments of priests, so that henceforth Wets,
not be a question as to the legality of the trust c 054,1
was, therefore, a complete remedy for thing
defects. They proposed to abrogate the 00'114,
for the purpose of substituting a new ono. that yrr`ij
proposed to place three legal persons upon the
mission, the first of whom was to have been the toP
Chancellor. It was, however, objected thastan,t, o
Chancellor must necessarily be a Prrotf,sty
yielding to that objection. Her Najt-he gait:"
verment omitted the name of ;he .6.'t cl),"'
Chancellor. They, however, retained of eXe
of the Rolls and the Chief Baron of the Coq" 4 Wer. tb
ii
quer, to both of which offices Roman Catheneore,
gible. There was nothing sectarian, thereto orlf slief
appointment of that part of the board. Itl.r,,dge °bet °
Bill they had not placed the name of a u-3101:osic*
Perogative Court, but a Roman Catholic at ofec'oose#
Parliament had submitted that this was a gres,
and the Judge of the Prerogative Court avtl.be Cc 'e ae,„,
quence, placed amongst the members of sceriocill
sion. Having yielded to that suggestion ti"e•lfor p oen,
taunted on the second reading of this
upon the new Commission a man whos° 0;5 API iote
was made by the Primate of Ireland. But freleerl;oo e
ment had not been made by the Primate 01404 P th
on the last occasion of its being vacant, the bands ire 4;
of Ireland placed the appointment in thew if°
Government. He could not help alluding, the Iv
stance, as he thought it was indicative a. J
0040
n
which the Government were now oPP°s„eooe c 3,00!„,
offices, the occupants of which were to emnr„golohliof
of this Board, were, a few years,..ei 0 00t
Catholics, viz., Baron Rolfe and Sir entfoee he
There were to be ten other Commissionellico, Po. to "„?
that number five were to be Roman Cath°rteeinecainete
would ask whether it was not dish that sac,'
d iljsr •
met in the spirit which had been evinee d hea el a elie o(
In the course of this debate reference, '"a Lord Wee ft
l
a measure which had been introduced by.e Prey pi
ley, respecting which the Roman -ath ol
hand to
Ireland were consulted. He held in hisb_ittaa
of that measure. It was, first of all su
Murray.
Sir R. PEEL said it was quite stiale'bnaitteti 05 a
eille
Mr. M. O'FERRALL—OnIy the oujiin:l;t ft°ol',9'ol.o.
general outline of the measure had been t° c°, cot-40
Murray, in order to enable him to was 13ewor
between that and the present Bill. ThatJ3rr frinebegio
"An Act for providing places of woroshuil?
and a
Prise ri
Catholic subjects in Ireland, and h
the parish priests." Parish priests "esent 13111'%Pre5
used throughout the Bill. In the eso ralseti
was brought into the House of Lot:;',le-ctian Won
" parish minister " was used. An °i was Jed
to this, on the ground that " ministe
luvu yield
by rreebyterima couly. The GeYeru"

J

the re
an"
he (111„ei
vicfrni
of 1'

13ills were very,
nbi,ction, and substituted the word " priest." 'Ci9 two 1(1 :;shoo ;f whether the d.)cirine was Catholic, or who-
i. '' their' character, and yet her ther it was even Christian, did not arose here.' It was
s ini ,r in
... .
Majesty's Government were ac.2u;ed of doing grievous said that they were over-sensitive. Well. then, let three
wrong by introducing this Bill, and ()Tering an insult to or four dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church be up-
Ireland. He could only say, that if flonnurable Gen- pinted ; let some Boman Catholic laymen of high rank
tb-men would indulge in such imputations as be appointed, and there would be an end of all objection.
these against the Gov .ram i-ir„ the to MeV they ; —(Rear, hear.) There was another part of the subject,
abandoned all hopes of redressing nny griev- namely, the disposition of a person's property three
ante the better, for it would be be ter for the Go- months before his death. That was confined to land, for
vernment to leave the law as it stood, than subject i a person in articula mortis might leave personal property.
themselves to imputations of this kind. The Act of He did not think there would be any objection to the
1834 imposed a limitation with respect to the amount of Bill on this ground. He might be much mistaken in the
property to be granted. It provided that no sum ex- views he had taken on this question. He gave the Right
seeding 2001., and no land greater in extent than forty Hon. Gentleman credit for the most honourable motives
acres, should be voluntarily granted for the purpose of in introducing this Bill—(Hear, hear)—he said it was
endowment. But it was said that they now imposed new conceived in a spirit of peace, and that it would be so
restrictions, and it was contended that every person received. A great man had said, that he hated little wars.
ought to be allowed to make, upon his death-bed, be- He would say the same of little boons, when there was a
quests for Roman Catholic purposes. That was the necessity for a
feelings
amnesty and complete oblivion,—
state of the law as it at present stood. In England any (Hear, hear.) The Government acted on such feelins
grant, to be legal, must be made one year before the tes- with regard to the Dissenters' Chapels Bill. On such
tator's death. He would be sorry to see that law altered. feelings they acted when the Right Hon. Gentleman
They now proposed that in Ireland grants for religious said that Maynooth required revision. There was a
Purposes should be made three months prior to boldness and a courage that was almost superior to
the
death of the testator. If they doubted the virtue Let the same course be taken with regard to this
Policy
of that, they could alter it in Committee. measure. Let it be made a comprehensive and perma-
Lt was entirely a question of public policy. nent measure, and it would be satisfactory.—(Elear.)
Ile believed that the Bill, which was seen by Dr. Moir- There }vas one portion of the Right Hon. Baronet's
ray, contained the same provisions, and no objection speech for which he most sincerely thanked him—that
was urged to it then, no objection was urged to the rule portion in which he intimated that the Sovereign would
that three months must elapse before the death of the visit her throne in the west. If she did so, he trusted
patty bequeathing land, in order to make the bequest she would find there a devoted, a gallant, a loyal—still,
Valid. But it was said that some rule of the Roman Ca- still a loyal—people, and that she would bear with her
tholic Church made it impossible to commit the consi- there that 'mercy which seasons justice."—(Cheers.)
deration of matters affecting the spirltualitiss of the Lord STANLEY said that the Right Hon. Gentle-
Church to any lay tribunal, that it was absolutely neces- man had done justice as to the views and intentions
vary to reserve the consideratios of ,piritual matters to with which the Government were actuated in proposing
tribunals exclusively ecclesiastical. But this Bill did not this remedial measure, for such it was, as compared with
relate to spiritual matters requiring the cognisance of an the existing law, The objections made to the measure
exclusively ecclesiastical tribunal. The matters, in re- were such as it would be competent for the Right Hon.
spect of which the tribunal was to meet and adjudge, Gentleman to introduce in the Committee on the Bill,
blight be decided withont the violation of any principle and it would be quite consistent with the principle of it
of the Catholic faith. But his first answer to the objec- if the Government assented to the amendments he sug-
c"on was, that there was nothing in the Bill which im- gested. But the Right Hon. Gentleman was mistaken
Posed on the Crown any obligation to constitute an ex- with regard to the views which he attributed to the Go-
elusively lay tribunal. The Crown would have an op- vernment in introducing the measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Portunity of appointing Churchmen to it. His other Her Majesty's Government were actuated by no
answer was, that this Bill was in contemplation in 1834, political or religious views, but they saw that the
that it then underwent consideration by the Re- present law required amendment, and they resolved
man Catholic Prelates, whose assent was given to introduce a Bill which would place charitable bequests
to •
it, though it did devolve on a tribunal of all denominations, Protestant and Roman Catholic,
composed exclusively of laymen, the considera-
(The on the same footing, under the superintendence of a
c
"(in of the very same questions involved in this Bill. board, which would the confidence of all, and which
Right Hon. Baronet read an extract from the Bill, would do justice to all. The question should be viewed
regulating the Visiting Board of the College of May- as a question of property, and not as one of religion,
booth.) lle trusted he had now given an explanation which he was sorry to see introduced into the discussion
tn_fficient to satisfy the House at least of the intention of at all. Would it be denied that lawyers should not be
Th'ivir, Majesty's Government with respect to this measure, on such a board ? An objection was taken that the
"inch, as his Right Hon. Friend had said, and truly said, highest legal authority, who must necessarily be a Pro.
,Was brought in not for the purpose of conciliating public testant, was to be a member of the board. That was a
favour by any undue or unwise concession, but for the thing from which they could not escape, for such was the
Purpose of doing that which was just, and doing it in a law, and he did not think that any person could doubt of
conciliatory and friendly spirit. The object of the Bill the justness of the decisions of the present Lord Chan-
was to do justice ; and the motive of the Bill was to be cellor. With regard to the other two judges who were
with in a friendly and conciliatory spirit. It rested to be on the board, they selected two of the judges not
they
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite to determine how far for their religion or creed—viz., the Master of the Rolls
iney Would, acting from the impulse of their own feel- and Chief Baron, both of whom had lately been Roman
ofr, and following the dictates of their own judgment, Catholics. They also selected the Judge of the Prero-
se ePposition to the passing of this Bill. It was pos- gative Court, whom the Hon. Baronet the Member for
~,e that such an opposition, strenuously directed Waterford had himself pointed out as a suitable person.
trust the measure. might at that period of the session He must also be a Protestant, and the judge who now
4evail- At any rate, whether that opposition prevailed presided in the Prerogative Court was a person
succeeded, he hoped, during the recess, the popular on whose decision the utmost confidence could be placed,
tent,, .
o real
be,. ; in Ireland would not be inflamed by charging and who on one occasion had given, as counsel,
t ' 'iajesty's Government with unwillingness to listen an opinion against his political friends and his
complaints, and with a want of a desire to do co-religionists. He did not see bow they could
thatl which it considered to be justice.--(Hear, hear.) appoint Roman Catholic judges ex vi termini. The
ore did hope at any rate that, in the course Right Hon. Gentleman complained that they had not
b the next session the Government would not consulted any of the Roman Catholic Prelates. Why,
e taunted with the imputation that it had permitted at- they had not consulted any of the Protestant Prelates,
tendone to the business of England and Scotland to cc- and for this reason, that they did not consider this ques-
tb'PY it exclusively, and that it had neglected Ireland ; tion a religious question, but a question of property.
at neglect being used as an additional argument for a They merely looked to the existing law, and they found
repel of the union.—(Hear, hear.) He did trust that that it gave just suspicions to the Roman Catholics, but
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite who asked them what they they had some grounds for knowing what were the °pi-
t% moor do to prevent their being influenced by this Oa- nions of some of the most honourable and most
usr for repeal, would, in their explanations to their amiable of those Prelates, and they had rea-
_ofl
v tituents have the goodness to explain fairly that the son to suppose that a board would not ex-
measure the Government had produced was a measure cite the suspicions of the Roman Catholics; which did
e",'Fn permitted voluntary endowments to the Roman not contain Roman Catholic ecclesiastics. The present
irons
Church—which permitted voluntary subscrip- board was composed not only of one denomination, but
..,liulas to be applied to the building of Roman Catholic it was partly an ecclesiastical board of one denomination.
4.4ees of worship—which rendered it impossible here- It was composed of the Lord Chancellor, the Judge of
t after to interfere with such bequests, and which proposed the Prerogative Court, the Judges, the Provost of
.I,° constitute a commission of regulation, composed of Trinity College, the Dean of St. Patrick, and the Vicar-
.aoln
an Catholics and Protestants in equal numbers, General of Dublin. Five of those constituted a quorum,
Proving that the principle of the measure was one of but of those five an Archbishop or Bishop should
tiquality. And his belief was, that if they would permit be one, and poser was given to them to ap-
suset, measure to pass it would be hailed by the uninflu- ply charitable donations or bequests, according
eu
_e.ed and reasonable part of the people of Ireland as a to the intentions of the donor; and in case it was expe-
-2_ alaure of very great advantage, and indicative of the dient or unlawful to apply the same according to the in-
spirit in which her Majesty's Government was disposed tentions of the donor then to apply them to such pur-
'o legislate with regard to that country.—(Hear.) poses as they considered nearest to the wishes of the
Mr. SHEIL hoped that, as the Right Hon. Gentleman donor.—(Hear, hear.) The present Act was a great
had, not had the opportunityof consulting those who were grievance and it was felt as such; and now when they came
Lae best able to give him advice on this important mea- for the first time with a remedy, complaints were
Imade
t
!lire, he would permit them to make such comments upon as to the measure whicla.they brought foerfworaerd
the Corn
l_t,as their duty required them to offer. He had waited was the opinion of. Mr. 0 Conne_l,.givez! b
with
rfoonet's speech, mittee which sat in 1829, on this su jee
b t? He stated,
anxiety for the conclusion of the Right Hon. Ba-
in answer to a question which had been put to him, that
Id suggest
to hear what reason he would 1
the Roman Catholics had no confidence in the board,
r not having consulted a single Roman Catholic ece e-
siastic upo tit.- measure.—(Hear, hear.) But he had and that they entertained apprehensions as to
listened innvainl.s `l'this point the Right Hon. Gentle- what the ultimate application of the charitable
Ina bequests made by Roman Catholics would be, and
, n had not thought it judicious or necessary to refer.
lie had heard with much surprise the audio- as long as the Commission remained in its present
city of
the Honourable Member for Waterford state that apprehension would continue. He was then
or
(Sir H. • Winston Barron) quoted by the Noble asked what would be the object of a Commission com-
d, the Secretary for Ireland, as the ground for ap-
pointing the Judge of the Prerogative Court as one of posed partly of Catholics and partly of Protestants ? He
the Commission. He (Mr. Sheil) did not wish to throw answered that that would mitigate a great deal ; and he
any reflection on the lion. Member for Waterford—he would go further and say this, that if the Commissioners
had a right to give an opinion, and he were composed of two or three Roman Catholics out of
. .
He didcu
Court
t bear in paid great attention to the
thatinm,mceinssda,rigave it. He had nine or ten, one great objection would be removed.—
paid
re; oe gr .a
t i vile subject, but he was not a Such is the opinion of Mr. O'Connell in 1829; and in the
y b thee
aJ updraoet
espresent Bill, five out of the ten Commissioners would of
Bill was so framed necessity be Roman Catholics, and five would be Protest-
Thethat, de i for oft
atnhte.
Come, the Protestants ,acto, many years to ants. There was no jealousy between the Protestants
Wes-
board. It was must have the majority on this and Presbyterians, or between the Protestants or Wes-
quite true, that the but the Church of Rome singly and alone re-
Baron and that of the ' offices of Chief leyans,
filled by Roman ofofthe Commissionersfrom
Master of the Rolls might be ceived five out ten
Catholics. held, and Church; and he thought it most indecent, unwise, to suggest
it was true that it They had been so
likely to
Hon.
G occur during the administration of the Right not perform his functions justly and fairly, without re-
entleman, he could not see far enough into the ference to the religion of the parties who came before
future to foretel. But they asked this—how would the Bill him. If they threw out a suspicion that Roman Catholic
operateama for the present ? It was so framed as to give judges would not administer justice fairly, because they
jority on the board to Protestants for a considerable might be of the same religion with one of the claimants
number.. of years. Why was it so ? It was admitted before them, it would be said that they insulted the
4,'__ethee Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State, that Roman Catholics. He lamented the necessity of stipu-
rac-fourths of the property to be managed by this biting that a certain proportion of the board should be
°° 5, that three-fourths of the property held under of one reliaion ; but he thought it most unwise to dis-
charitableo bequests in Ireland, was Catholic property. pate whether there should be five against six, or six
aa W that fact, as stated by the Government itself, being against seven.—(Hear, hear.) But, if there were any
beyond dispute, was it not natural that they should pretence for this, it was provided for by the Bill ; for,
anajuire of them, why they so gratuitously where bequests w ere made for Roman Catholic purposes
iii 't unnecessarily placed a majority of Protestants they were to be placed exclusively in the hands of the
foru that board ? What reason had they Roman Catholic members of the board. Yet they were
it, except that principle which seemed to pervade told that this Bill was an insult to the Roman Catholics.
every
_ scendancy.
T
institution in Ireland—the spirit of Protestant The Government was desirous of holding the balance
!seendancy. He did not say that it was so, but the equally, and of doing justice to all, but it was not EDINBURGH JURY COUR.
-night, Hon. Gentleman must feel that the objection was very encouraging, when they wished to put all on the BREACH. OF PROMISE OF MARRIAGE.
one that
_ would be naturally entertained. Why should same footing, to be told that they were insulting and An action for breach of promise of marriage was tried
the ajority of the board be Protestants when the bulk injuring the party from whom they sought to remove on Wednesday before the Lord Justice-General and a
of tr
ar, property to be administered by the board was the unequal pressure of the existing law. It was next jury, in which Miss Margaret Croall was pursuer, and
tion'iin? Let them not suppose that he had any objec- objected that they placed in the hands of Roman Ca- Mr. Joseph Hutchinson was defender. The following was
h. to the Judge of the Prerogative Court. He knew tholic laymen questions affecting the doctrine and the issue in the case :
Ina welland h , , 0 was a man of the highest talent and discipline of the Roman Catholic Church, and that was " Issue in the cause in which Miss Margaret Croall,
strictest • •
of it. integrity. He would tell them an instance contrary to the usage of that Church. The Right Hon. daughter of Mr. John Croall, coach proprietor in Edin-
of in
1828, when he acted as assessor of the county Gentleman quoted the opinion of Edmund Burke, who burgh, is pursuer ; and Joseph Hutchinson, Esq., re-
was Clare, it was by his decision that Mr. O'Connell said he did not think the members of one religious sect siding at Woodside, near Dalserf, in the County of La-
b declared returned. He did not object to the man, were fit to appoint the pastors of another. How did the nark, is defender.
~,,111,t he did object to putting men upon the board from Right Hon. Gentleman apply that to the present Bill? " Whether the defender, in the month of April, 1843,
whom th
th,
_0
_.e.profession of Protestantism was required as
.The Right Hon. Gentleman said that Dr. Everhard had promised and agreed to marry the pursuer ; and whether
R,7_e. ildition of their holding their offices. The Right founded a college, and he had dwelt upon the circum- the defender has wrongfully failed to perform the said
A .7,"° Baronet had not given a reason for not consulting stances of that case. The question was, should they. promise and agreement, to the loss, injury, and damage
Thingaale Roman Catholic Prelate with regard to the Bill. have an exclusively ecclesiastical authority to decide of the pursuer ?"—Damages laid at 3,0001.
to "'as
.an ecclesiastical measure, relating to property legal questions ? Suppose the Roman Catholics were Mr. INGLIS, with whom was Mr. Rutherford, opened
trine applied to ecclesiastical uses. It touched the doe- recognised, protected, and endowed in Ireland, and a the case for the pursuer. He stated that the pursuer
/Ai_ and constitution of the Roman Catholic Church. case arose where one person sued another for a charit- was the daughter of Mr. Croall, the eminent coach con-
th,s':.Right Hon. Friend was mistakea in his view as to able or religious foundation as a Roman Catholic foun- tractor in Edinburgh, and that the defender, Mr. Hut-
te:.e's_.tent to which questions would arise under it con- dation. To whom did the Right Hon. Gentleman say chison, who was the only son of a gentleman possessed
Bll', 1 with the views of that Church. In the face of the they must refer a question involving not spiritual juris- of landed property, at Woodside, parish of Dalserf,
th
that e Government had stamped its own conviction diction, but temporal payments,_ the payment of money, Lanarkshire, paid his addresses to her about the begin
lady.
Of thosecommon questions would arise; then why, in the name the receipt of a salary, the right to receive as a profes•• ning of last year, and was accepted by the young
itia4 nion consistency, did they not consult a single Ro- sor, in a particular body, a certain amount of It was difficult to say whether he had ever been sincere
they Catholic Prelate ? He was willing to believe that stipend ? Did he say they should refer to the in his addresses; if he were, it was impossible to Meer"
Pate tacted from the purest motives, and he did not im- Church of Rome ? Why, that at once claimed taro from what cause lie had been induced to break off
Would° them any sinister intent in that omission, but it for the Church of Rome the recognition, the the match. The Learned Cousel then proceeded to
tell a Place them in a great embarassment. He would protection, and the authority of the law, provided it were read various:letters addressed by the defendant to the
ieni
Could -frankly that he did not think any Protestant always upon its side, while for the maintenance of these pursuer, all breathing the warmest affection and attach •
such aenter into the feelings of a Roman Catholic on rights it refused to abide by its decision.—(Hear, hear.) meat, but most of them adverting to the fact that
bletiv question as this. He could not appreciate their That was a very large and important question. He would his sisters were opposed to the match, and that they
they wes—,he could not understand their feelings, or, if like to know whethr there was any religious persuasion were endeavouring to stir up his father against
at one-e(ntl, their prejudices and jealousies. He would in this or any other country which claimed that exclu- it, in which he was apprehensive they would succeed.
to . tell them that he would not trust a Protestant sive right?—(Hear, hear.) He was speaking of tern- At the same time, he declared emphatically, and in re-
egsat '
eipliti eon a matter in which the doctrine and dis- poral stipends and salaries, received qua professor of a peated letters, that no opposition on their part, or on
e of
not tba.. the Roman Catholic Church was concerned; particular university, and not of the appointment of a that of his father, would have the slightest effect in
heca,ase4 he had any suspicion of their integrity, but professor, if that professor should have been appointed. causing him to change his purpose. His letters also
signs they could not enter into the feelings and pas- Mr. SHEIL—By the Protestant majority. bore testimony to the fact that he kept a race-bore—
which
laced
n_ must be borne in mind by those who legis- Lord STANLEY said there was no appointment by that he was in the Lanarkshire Yeomanry—and that
Iliad ecitiPs'u? such a topic. If the Right Hon. Baronet the Commission. It was intended to see that property he indulged in other amusements altogether ineon-
aye avoided any Roman Catholic Prelate he would was applied to the purposes, be they Protestant or be sistent with the defence which was now set up by the
°apposing all this. Let them not suppose that he was they Roman Catholic, for which the founder intended defender, that he was so utterly poor, and dependent
them in the spirit of faction. He had received for subsistence upon his friends. In June last year,
~ letter from it.—(Hear h ) If the Roman Catholic professorship
, ear.
unguish ,a Roman Catholic Archbishop, dis- of theology in Maynooth were recognised by the law, he paid a visit to Edinburgh, and spent ten days or a
vale had a for his learning and his moderation, and • fortnight in Mr. Croall's house, where he was received
11. never the ultimate resort, in case of any dispute, must be to
Right been an impediment in the way of the the Lord Chancellor. But if the Hon. Gentleman said by the family with the utmost cordiality. At that time
to ex__
ssHonourable Gentleman, and he felt it his duty it was a matter of discipline in the Roman Catholic he went with Miss Croall and another lady to the shop
Cohurer°o_, , his conviction that the Roman Catholic Church not to entrust these matters to laymen, he of a jeweller in town, with the intention of purchasing
the the church was acquiesce in a Bill by which authority begged to say there was nothing to prevent the appoint- for her a diamond ring, but when there, was induced to
I'l Govern_ _ was given to laymen. Why could not, ment of a Roman Catholic ecclesiastic, or of any number change his purpose, and buy a gold watch, with which
the by urw. eat take the same course as was adopted in of Roman Catholic ecclesiastics. There was nothing to he presented her. After his return home, on the 29th
e Colleae ofPitt, with respect to the-visiting board of declare by law that these legal questions should be de- June, lie wrote to the pursuer, intimating that he had
velatllted to the Maynooth, by which all matters which tided by an ecclesiastical tribunal, and he confessed he had-a conversation with his father on the subject of his
. olie Church doctrine and discipline of the Roman Ca- should think it most unwise in the British Par- marriage, in which his father, while fully admitting the
the were to be regulated by such members of liament to give that power to any Church, be it respectability of the pursuer's family, and the unble-
boardaean, as were Roman Catholics ? In the case of' mished nature of her character, thought that his son
the;„ '3' by death the • - Protestant or be it Roman Catholic. In confining
successors survivors had the power of electing exclusively Protestant charities to exclusively Protestant might have made a more advantageous match, and ob-
Ott once rid the • ißy adopting this course they would Commissioners, and exclusively Catholic charities to ex- jetted that the pursuer was beneath him in rank. This
ti T,,,,,,_
~° mt se
the
of the difficulty which would arise elusively Catholic Commissioners, they were doing all in the defender denied. The conversation dropped, the
vtligeoleyewalasgseoe election of the board. The same their power to place the different religious denominations writer added, by the father declaring that he was un-
gtand Burke wholl by a greater man than Mr. Pitt—Ed- on a footing of perfect and entire equality. They had alterably opposed to the match, while the son declared
„ate of public feeling,
thoroughly to understand the sought to do away with the religious jealousies of either firmly, on the other hand, that nothing but death should
Crown an,
____ and the difficulty of giving the party b confining to the care of each the religious cha- prevent him from carrying his intentions into effect.
atholie 6rwer over the doctrine and discipline of the • • which belonged to that particular denomination. A day or two afterwards he wrote again, in which he
rities .
then . it hr (The Hon. and Learned Gentleman-
r a
Pen eadpassage Further than this by law he thought it would be unwise , repeated the substance of this conversation, and added,
Penal co, from Mr. Burke's pamphlet on the They ready in Committee to consider the that he had had a conversation with one of his sisters,
were "e, as directed against to go. were
wi.., not about to . Roman Catholics, in objections to the details which any party might make.— li in which she stated that she would offer no further
gleh he t appoint pastors perha s but tl • They had anxiously considered the ob- , opposition to his marriage ; and he congratulates the
s atedthatthe me b - ' •.p ,ley (Hear, hear.).
'fr. allow one of m ers of one religious sect would • •
jections which were raised in 1829 by Mr. pursuer on this first indication of a bright change in
troYtte( painly were about
anotherto
to. appoint their pastors.) their
O'Connell, the great lay leader of the Ca-
.circumstances. Matters remained in this state
LI aa. • • app, ant those who would con-till the 20th of August, when a change in the style of
question His Right Hon. Fe d did tholics had anxiously considered the pro-m- nof the doctrineslen not see how the •• ; they
• 4 vere assented to by Dr. the defender's letter began to appear. The jury would
'Bill B of the Church could • arise under
_ positions which in 183 %
theßoman Ca- '
find in them what he (Mr. Inglis) must call a '
aris. But he could show him that Murray, one of the most estimable of cunning
fe, " He stated the question could tholic prelates ; they had sought to shape their men- and gradually executed device to shake himself free from
Anniled in c
case of the Roman Catholic Colleg to either party, his promises ; and his object was to disgust Miss Croall with
rehbisbo Cashel by Dr. Everhard, the Roman Cathore sure so as, without giving ascendancy
aessors
0,
.p_o the district. Supposing one of the ic to do justice to both, and to unite both in the. common
her to give up the engagement. On the 20th of August
!lett' , _.!
ethstiaecollege embraced Jansenist wepurold- work of charity; and he should deeply res,ret if the men- her
wrote that he had unpleasant news to tell ugust
The_ 11u. i nbetweenthecollegeandthevis't• doctrine,csb d sure should be rejected on its second reading on. the
Iher, that
si in, oar ? his father was unalterably opposed to the •
4444 did not wish to have the education principle introduced ; and if, even on the discussion of had marriage. He
the Control 9f the laity. But
of the eo le
it was •
P P the details, it should be met either by Protestants or
,known this some weeks before, but he was ' • unwilling
3 said the Rowan Catholics with a sectarian feeling, which was ito tell her. Why, said the Learned Counsel, he did tell

the fardiest of all from the motives by which her Ma-
jesty's Government had hcen actuated.
Mr. BELLEW explained.
Mr. WYSE said that no person who had considered
with any attention the principles on which the existing
board was founded, could fail to admit that it was to-
' tally unfit to carry out this object. It wee of the hihcst
importance, that in the present position of Ireland they
should have the amplest security for the proper
carrying out of charitable intentions.—(Hear, hear.)
The board was intended to undermine the Ca-
tholic religion, and the question before the House
was, whether the measure before the House provided a
sufficient remedy? He admitted, fully, that the ques-
tion of temporalities was a question of property, but
they often became mixed up with spiritual matters.
The State should not go beyond its legitimate sphere
and interfere with what was spiritual.—(Hear, hear.)
Bequests and donations to hospitals and institutions of a
similar nature, fairly came under the influence of a
mixed Commission, but there were other charities which,
being strictly of a spiritual character, should not be sub-
mitted to the same influence. There was no jealousy on
the part of the people of Ireland against a board for the
administration of general charities, but they were lealous
of interference with spiritual matters, and the question
was, whether this Bill provided for the removal
of jealousies of that nature. He wished to see
one ecclesiastic at least on the board.—(Hear.)
The question which the board would have to decide
would be the proper application of a fund left for re-
ligious purposes, and that question must be decided by
a reference to doctrines. The Noble Lord said that in
the case of a professorship there would be an appeal to
the Lord Chancellor. But the Lord Chancellor must
refer to the Commission for their opinion. Would it not
be much better to nominate a bishop on the board who,
inThnine, could decide whether certain doctrines were or
were not in accordance with those of the Church ? His
principal objection to the Bill was, that its object being
to conciliate the people of Ireland, the Government did
not take the precaution to ascertain the opinion of the
Catholic prelates, and that the Government had not
shown sufficient regard for their position or character ;
and he thought it would be a wiser course to make the
Bill acceptable at once, than to leave it to be amended
at a future time.
Mr. HUME believed the Bill had been brought for-
ward in the spirit of peace, and all that he wished was
that every measure connected with Ireland should be
brought forward in the same spirit. He gave the Go-.
vernment the greatest credit for what they had done,
and he did not think that the objections that had been
taken to the measure would do any good for Ireland.
Colonel RAWDON thought there was great necessity
for the measure, and he should therefore give it his sup-
port. Ho believed it had been brought forward in a good
and kind spirit.
Mr. D. BROWNE deprecated a measure of such im-
portance being brought forward at so late a period of
die session. He believed the measure would not be
satisfactory to the people of Ireland ; and he thought
the Government ought to postpone the further consi-
deration of the measure to another session. If the Go-
vernment attempted to force the measure through the
House during the present session, they would greatly
outrage the feelings of the people f Ireland.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there
appeared—
For the second reading
Against it
Majority
_

-66

On entering the gallery we found,
Mr. MORGAN O'CONNELL protesting against the
provisions of the Bill. Why should not the clergy of a
higher order be termed bishops and archbishops ? the
question had been repeatedly asked, and had been yet
unanswered. Neither had there been any satisfactory
reason given why the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland had
not been consulted. He had moved an amendment that
instead of the words " clergy of the higher order," it
should be, " bishops and archbishops." On the Dissenters'
Chapels Bill the Government acknowledged that they had
consulted the Dissenting clergy, but they disdained to treat
the Catholic clergy in the same manner. The Govern-
ment gave notice of their intention to bring in this Bill
in February, and brought it forward in the month of
June, and introduced a clause by which a lay Commis-
sion would have power over the doctrines and discipline
of the Church of Rome. To this he in the strongest
manner objected. The only consolation Roman Catho-
lics would have was, that the Bill was not compulsory.
The Bill was then ordered to be committed on Thurs-
day next.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the order of the day for the
House going into Committee on the Marriages (Ireland)
Bill.
The Bill then went through Committee pro forma.
The Report on the Savings' Bank Bill was then
brought up.
The Fisheries (Ireland) Bill passed through Commit-
tee, and the report yas ordered to be received to-morrow