The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

THE SUN

utmost endeavours to support them. He thought that
the total redemption of tithes ought to be one of the first
measures upon which'the Government ought to deter-
mine. Without undertaking to dictate to Government
What they should do, he Would only say that he would
support them to the utmost of his power, because he
had the utmost confidence in them, and he would con-
tinue to give them his cordial and disinterested support.
Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN said the time had arrived when

the Government could no longer temporise ; they must
either conciliate or subdue. The English Government
had hitherto rated Ireland as a subjugated people, who
rendered it (the Government) powerful by their dissen-
sions. England had formed a union, which gave to her
an unwise domination, and neglected the oppor-
tunities of a wiser and more fruitful incorporation ;
but since that union, England had kept herself
in a state of cold and selfish isolation. For cen-
turies Ireland had been governed by the division of races,
and afterwards by the power which sectarian differences
gave to her rulers. The union came, and Ireland was
united, but not incorporated with the empire. The
Catholics were partially emancipated, but they felt that
freedom was not yet attained. They called for the
destruction of those sectarian differences which formed
the most grevious part of their evils, and the most fruit-
ful source of British power. The British Government
maintained the Church of an opulent minority at the
expense of an impoverished and dissentient majority.
All these grievances compelled four-fifths of the people
of Ireland to rally under the coniprebensive watchword
of Repeal. But the Imperial Parliament had the
power, if it had the • will, to consign to repose the
awakened spirit of nationality. The national energies
were wasted in continual discussion, and the feelings of
domestic life were disturbed and irritated. The Roman
Catholics were denounced •as. unfit to discharge the
ordinary functions of free citizens.—(Hear, hear.) What
then were the people of Ireland to look to ? The Mem-
bers of the present Goiernment were those Ministers
who said that they had commenced emancipation on
the combined consideration of expediency and in-
timidation.—(Hear, and cheers.) Whatever weight ex-
pediency might have had with them he for one was
convinced that intimidation had the greater force.—

(Great cheers.) The Irish people were reproached with
conspiracy, but by measures of comprehensive redress
you can dissolve the combination.—(Cheers.) They
were reproached with agitation, but Magna Charta was
carried by agitation. -The Bill of Rights was carried by
agitation. Trial by Jury was maintained by agitation.
The Presbyterian Church of Scotland•was preserved by
agitation. The independence of the Irish Parliament in
'B2 was obtained by agitation, and the emancipation of the
Catholics was obtained by agitation.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. Member concluded by respectfully calling upon the
House to consummate the great Act of Emancipation
which was not yet completed—to carry to their councils
the awakened spirit of nationality—to temper its enthu-
siasm—and, if they would, to regulate its aberrations.
Mr. MONUKTON MILNES having placed a notice
on the books, on the subject of Ireland,-and that small
notice of 'his having merged in the larger proposition
now before the-House, he trusted he should be allowed
to make a few remarks. They should be few, for he
promised the House he was not going to give the speech
he intended to have uttered had his own motion come
on.—(Laughter.) It 'Was an unfortnnate thing that
they never could get a discussion on Ireland in that
House, which did not turn out to be of an exclusively
party character.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the Noble
Lord the Member for London had' not confounded two
things—a criticism on the late trials, and afterwards an
essay on what ought to be the future government of
Ireland. They had been favoured with speeches on two
subjects which ought to have been kept widely distinct.
Although the question of the late trials bore very little
on the question of the future government of Ireland, it
had unfortunately been introduced, and had tainted the
whole debate with a violent party spirit. It was a
matter they all knew, and all grieved about, that the
law was so little respected in Ireland. But it ought not
to have happened to the. Noble , Lord to be a party to
bring the law into still less respect, as he had aimed to
do, by the remarks he indulged in, when speaking of
the recent prosecutions. He.was reminded by the con-
duct of the Noble Lord of *two lines in a work of
Dickens'.—(A laugh.),, • ~ . ,
Against the Bishop plead the Church's cause, .
And from the Judges vindidate the laws.
And so, when giving what was real law and what judge-
made law, the Noble Lord should recollect that there
was hardly any case in which a person was found guilty
but what, according to his own opinion and statement, he
was so found, not on the law, but on some quibble of it.
—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He must say for the
Noble Lord, or for himself, neither of whom knew any-
thing whatever about the matter(Great laughter)—to
speak in the irreverent and s disrespectful way which
had been dime of those' trials was most improper.—
(Hear, hear.) He should have thought that the experi-
ence of office which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had had
might haie taught them the difficulties which existed in
the way of a fair and impartial government of Ireland.
They ought also to know that if the measures which they
recommended were attempted to be carried into effect
they would destroy Government after Government.
They all knew that Catholic ' emancipation was
carried by a combination of parties, and against
the opinion and the wishes of the English people.
—(Hear, hear.) The same feeling which so long
prevented and thwarted Catholic emancipation still
existed, and any endeavour at the present moment to
depress the Protestant Church, or enlarge the Catholic,
would meet with the most determined opposition. He
thought it, therefore, most impolitic and unwise that the
course opened by the Noble Lord (Russell), and followed
up to such an extent by the other Noble Lord (Howick),
and the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller),
should have been taken by them without a modi-
fication of the opinions of the.people of England, which
could. only be managed by the small processes—
(Laughter)—which they all knew so well, and in time it
would be folly in a Government to propose any such
alterations as those suggested. 'lf they were proposed
they would not be adopted—they would annihilate any
Government.(Hear, hear.) • Much blame rested on
the people of England for this state of things—more,
much more, than on the Government. Whatever evils
were in Ireland were owing to ourselves. If the
priests were violent it was . England made them
I so, by leaving them a' prey to every political
excitement. We had made them as they were.
He shared this opinion with almost all the great states-
' men—(Laughter)—who had ever administered the
affairs of this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) There was no
doubt that such was the opinion of Mr. Pitt.—(Hear.)
Although there remained no distinct record of it, he
had never heard it doubted. It had been asserted over
and over again in that House, and had been mentioned
in conversation by Mr. Pitt's most intimate friends.
Mr. Pitt believed that the union would never accomplish
its object as long as the Catholic clergy of Ireland were
left in their unregarded and degraded state.—(Hear.)
If a proof were wanted he found it in the declaration
of the Roman Catholic bishops, made on the eve of
the union. At an assembly of the Roman Catholic
bishops; held on the 17th, 18th, and 19th of
January, 1799, they admitted that the provision pro-
posed by the Government for the Roman Catholic
clergy ought to be, thankfully accepted ; and that such
an interference by the Government with the appoint-
ment of the bishops as would enable it to be satisfied of
their loyalty was just and ought to be agreed to. This
same opinion • was held by the yen- last of that genera-
tion of remarkable men—Lord Sidmouth. Lord Sid-
mouth made an offer to the Roman Catholic priests to
receive from George the Third -a share of the reyium
donum at the time it was given to the Presbyterians. By
1 the Presbyterians it was accepted, but the Roman
Catholic clergy very properly declared that it would be
considered as a bribe to detach them from the cause of
Cathohc Emancipation. Under these circumstances
they could not receive, , it. The same opinion
was held by Lord Grenville, and Lord Castle-
reagh avowed it frequently. Ia the Committee of
1825, when the question was brought prominently for-
ward, it was well known what were the opinions of Mr.
O'Connell and Mr. Shell on this; subject ; but he would
not detain them on this pthit:-L-tliey were matters which
they might all read for theMiselyes, and which no one
had ever denied. ,- In 18265, Lord Brougham, then Mr.
Brougham, in reference to the Roman Catholic clergy
in Ireland, expressed himself in favour of the provision
proposed the year before in - 1825; a resolution to that
effect was passed in that House by a large majority. He
did not intend to bring this question in any other form
distinctly and immediately before the House ; he was
only declaring what he believed to be the
sole, and- single, and true line into which
they cOUld get for .. the ... purpose of bettering
the condition of Ireland. He never intended to propose—
indeed, it would fie'an insult to do so—to give a sum of
money to the Catholic 'clergy, because it would be con-
sidered now, as.. it was considered then—a bribe. It
was a thing impossible-_—it could not be offered; but he
would tell them what he thought could be done,
and he had no doubt the House would agree with him
on this point at least. The Ministers seemed to begin
here in the right way.. They had done all that the
Roman Catholic clergy would accept in giving them
every means of possessing the endowments that might
be left to them by persons of their own persuasion.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) That was, of course, very little.—
(Laughter.) But he wouldtake it as an earnest of more,
he would take it as an earnest of the good feeling of the
Government in this matter; he hoped it would be followed
up by some such measure as the appointment of a
Commission to inquire into the state of the Roman Ca-
tholic chapels in Ireland, with a view to giving a grant
of public money for the purpose of repairing those
buiblings now desecrated by misery and poverty, and
and which had every right in the world to be kept in a
decorous state for public worship. He hoped, too, that
U ie invidious distinction, with respect to the titles of the
r *relates of that Church, might be done away with-
-o(Hear, hear)—for, believing as he did, and as every I
member of the Church of England must believe, the per- I
fect right of those prelates to assume the titles of ,
bishops and archbishops, though net in connection with •
the sees, as any of our prelates had to assume them,
he thought it would be a foolish and invidious distinc- i
tion if they left that matter any longer doubtful. Let I
them proceed by degrees to establish a good feeling in Ire- 1
Band—let them do it by degrees, not because
1 he did not wish to do it at once, but because he knew
' what was the feeling of the people of this country on
Ithe subject. He knew that their feelings and prejudices
vs ere connected with the best principles of social and
r digious liberty in this' country. Their prejudices
a gainst the Roman Catholic religion were heir-looms
v /Inch came down to them from the times of Catholic
1 persecution against Protestants, and the consequence was
I that Roman Catholics were at this time paying the pe-
t amity of the intolerance and bigotry of their forefathers.
It was only by slow degrees that such opinions and feel-
i 'ugs could be eradicated. And oh ! what a lesson ought
it to be to them to be tolerant in these matters, when
thedv saw bow deeply such intolerance in past times had
sunk :.into the hearts of the English people—what a lesson
ough tt, it to he to all sides to do nothing that should encou-
rage 41tolerance, when they 04W what he would call the