The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-15 00:00:00

r S N. N ON. SATUR D.t Y CI, JUNE 15

before, and doing this they would find that there mu he I
an express warrant for each orening.-L-(Hear, hear.)
As he understood the Right Honourable G9itleman,
he said that he issued a warrant against one or
the individuals who was Lot now in existence,
and it could have only reference to one letter. If trea-
son was suspected the Government could only act on in-
formation—that infortnation would be as to a p '
ticnlar day or hour such a lever • would pats
through the Post•ofti3e. On that day it
bs fotirul ther and that was the only pow• r given
by the Act. This was a matter of deep coniideraion,
and it therefore sh•uld be well considered.
Mr. CHRIS TIE said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had on one occaiion st7th d that he was three years in
the Home-office. and during those th ee year. he had
expended but a trifling amount of secret servi,:e money.
He could now acc,:unt for that in come
quence of the system of espionage which was
adopted. lie Nisheil tai linnw trim Un- 'Right Mut Ba-
ronet, whether ha,ingl,tated that he had is,m•d a wariant
with rearct to one individual, he had is wet warrant;
againg others, not stating names, and in lion many
caves ?
r. AT.T. AO E explained.
Mr. DUNCOMBE saint. thot as he had no other way
of obtaining the opinion i•f the House up in this very
ihrty transattion,• upon %% hich all exlionation was re•
fuse'l, he should divide the House upon the moti,n.
The galb•ry was then &livid, het the motion llor t:d-
iourtnent mai negatived without iii vision, it being under-
stood.thal Mr. Duncombe would bring on the stib!eet on
a future occasion, on going into Committee of Supply.
BANK CHARTER.
Mr. WODEEIOUSE gave notice•of an amendment on
the th;rl claus:i of the Bank Charter Bill.
• Mr. HUME gave a notice ri-specti;•g the min- Pill.
Some mistake in the wording of th,‘ lion. Gen! lem ca's
notic,,:: caused mto.h Urughter.

SUGAR DUTIES'.
Mr. LA BOUCI! ERE said he w ished to rep at =t q
tion he had formerly put, and to have an a:.swer e
tillou e wit into Commiitt.e on the. Sn:fftr
Bill. fle wished to know wi:ethfr, in teir Cu.:loin-
hotve there ,A as au such thing zts z eextilica,e
orlzin r quitej .as to prOuee imilorted from for.:ign
e,am•rics ? _ _ _

Mr. GLADSTONE said that any i: crtirips of th. 3
kind we-,. e•mduoted 4 the 4. xpensc of the C,Ait.ittl-hou6l,
au horiti s.

Mr: LABOUCIIERE— Then there is no such certifi-
cate required ?
Mr. GLADSTONE was understood to rely in the

negative. •
The Hou-e thin went into Committe,3 on the Sugar
Duties Bill.
On the first clause beieg propos. d,
Mr.' PHILIP MILD.; rose to move—" That from and
efter the 10th day of Nov., 1844, the ditty upon sugar,
the produce of British possessions, be reduced to 20s. the
hundred weight ; and, that the duties on sugar, certified
to be the growth of China, Java, or Manilla, or of any
foreign country, the sugar of which her Maje'ty in
Council shall have declared to be adtntssible, as not
being the produce of slave lab Our, shall be as follows :
namely, brown, Muscovado, or clayed, the cwt. 30'. ;
white elayed, or sugar otherwise prepared, and
equiva'ent to white clayed sugar, the cwt. 345.,
with five per cent. thereon." lie said that as
the Bill had barn allowed to pass throneh
several stages without any diseussion being taken on the
priucip'e of it, he trusted that the Committee would
allow him to make some observations b..fora he pro-
ceeded with his amendment,—(Hear, hear.) There were
several reasons which prevented him from concurring in
the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. In the first place, he did not think
that that was the proper time to bring that question
forward, unless her Majesty's Government were pre-
pared to look the whole question in the face, and to set
it finally at rest.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
He did not hesitate to tell the Government that if they
were not prepared to uphold the West Indian colony by
granting. to it sufficient protection, it WaS far better to
throw off the mask, and frankly say so, than to encou-
rage a partial outlay of capital under the idea of a con-
tinued prohibition, which, in the end, must be irre
trievably lost.—(Hear.) His Right Hoe. Friend at
the head of the Government, when he
.broueht forwerd
the tariff, expressly stated that he thought the Govern-
ment ought not to look at ere, part if the queetion wtth-
out material)); consideriti,r the whole. L, weei,l have
bern`a•mnch more straightforward course for her Ma=
iesty's Government to have come clown on that occasion
declaring that they wished to make some a'teration in
the sugar duties, and to cheapen the article fur the con
sumer, than asking fur the continuance of the income-
tax. His Right Hon. Friend, in the speech which he
m .de in 1841 on this question, quoted several passages
from a pamphlet which was notorious at the time, and
finished his quotation with one which he would take the
liberty of reading to the House, observing, that the
Right Ilon. Baronet then expres-eel his satire,' a-sent
in the view of the writer. "The presperity of the West
Indians," said the writer, " can only be continued and
ens :red by extensive and system..iie emigration, and
by the temporary continuance of the present protective
discriminating eludes upon sugar." They- were now
about to extend a free system of emigration without
continuing the discriminating, duties. The shortest
period w4ich eould be allowed for the satisfactory werk-
ing of this experiment was two years; but
it mutt be
attended with great expense to the colonies, while ether
countries would have the benefit of enurerense supply

of labour at a very trifling expense, and thus be able to
raise looduce at a much cheaper rate to supply tit.'
marlwt which this country would °reit to than. They
had been told, in the discussion on this subject, that this
measure was a. st. p towards free trade. When Its
coupled this statement with the measures which her
Majesty's Government had brought forward, it did
occur to him that the thoughts of the Treasury
bench were running in that direction. If they
were in favour of these principles, he fi r one could not
blame them ; but he begged them not to ask him to go
with them. If they intended to ~:bape their course in
that direction he would ask them to carry out their
principles a little further, and give their colonies the
benefit of the first steps in that direction. He thought
that when an alteration of the duty took place the
West Indian colonies were its much entitled to fair con-
sideration as the agricultural and other great interests
of this country. A tax of 75 per cent. was imposed
upon the staple article of production, and as the price
diminished the per tentage increased. He had listen( d
with considerable attention to the speech of his Right
Ilon. Friend in introducing this measure, but he had
told them nothing beyond the fact, that on the very day
when he gave notice of this measure the price of sugar in
this country was 2s. higher than in thecorresponding period
last year, and that in November their treaty with Brazils
would cease, and on that account it was incumbent on
them to make some alteration. The President of the
Board of Trade said that he was disappointed in his cal-
culation as to the supply to be derived from India. He
believed that if they placed the sugar duties on a firm
footing, within ten years they would give such a stimulus
to its production in India as would secure to them a large
supply. In 1836 the supply from India had been only
25,000 tons, and it was now 50,000 tons.—(Hear, hear.)
By encouraging the growth of sugar in India they would
be increasing the demand for English manufactures,
which would not he the case if. they encouraged
the growth of the su..ar in Java, because in that island a
(Int), of 50 per cent., ad valorem, was levied upon all Bri-
tish manufactures. He thought this measure was uncalled
for, because the supply of sugar for India would be greater
than the demand. He thought the continued prevalence of
the easterly winds was sufficient to account for the present.
small excess of price, lie found that the stook of sugar in
the United Kingdom, on the 12th June last, was 38,100 tons
against 31,000 tons. the amount of the stock at the same
period last year, and that in London alone, the excess of
stock in January, 1844 and January, 1843, was 3,0t10 tons.
The average price of sugar in 1841 was 385., in 1842 it was
375., in 1843 it was 36s , and in 1844 it was 375., being a
trifle higher than it was in 1,443, but lower than it was in
1841 and 1842. On the Ist of June the stock on hand was
40,000 tons, and the supply this year would amount to
125,000 tons from the West Indies, 60.000 tons from Bengal,
bO,OOO tons from Madras, 30 000 tons from Mauritiu., rnakitg
altogether a supply of 260,000 tons. . The consnmpion
iu
1843 was 202,000 tons. This, therefore, would leave an in-
crease over the amount of consumption of 58,000 tons on 31st
December, 1844; the stock on hand at the time period last
year amounting only to 40,000 tons. The Right Hon Gentleman
might deny that the supply would be such as he had stated, but
he had in his possession letters from the colonies confirming his
statements. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colo-
nies, on introducing his measure relating to 'Canadian corn
last session, had stated that a great protection ought to be ex-
tended to the productions of the eitlenics, and that they aught
to be treated as integral portions of the empire. The Govern-
ment had now altered their policy, and seemed prepared to sa-
crifice the colonies for the benefit of the mother cow try. A
few weeks.agit the duty had been taken riff :001. That was
for the benefit. of the mother country; hut was it for the be-
nefit of the Australian colonies ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it not
exposing them to foreign competition? The Government bad
now eommenced operations against the West Indies. The
House of Assembly of Jamaica had last session agreed to a
memorial to her Majesty on the subject of the duties of that
colony. He would read some extracts from tha' 'siemens',
notwithstanding the remarks of the Hon. Mhmber for Wolver-
hampton, who stated that the remarks in it were exagger: ted.
[The Hon. Member then i.roceeded to read extracts from the
memorial in question, in which the memorialists;stated that several
coffee and sugar plantations had been abandoned in conset,tenee
of the want of a supply of labour, and that universal gloom
pervaded the island. The memorialists concluded by stating
that they always looked to their gracious Sovereign and to a
Conservative Government, to afford them prinection. (This
passsge was received with lull t ironical cheers and laughter
from the Opposition.) The memorialists went on to state that
a reduction in the duty on colonial sugar and coffee would
afford them relief, but that, if a reduction task place in the
duty on slave-grown sugar, it would ruin them, and rt niter
nugatory the benefit of the slave emancipation.] The mea-
sure proposed by the Government would produce great dis-
satisfaction in the colonies. In order to show thas the state-
ments of distress were not exaggerated, he would read to them
an account of the losses incurred during the last. year on twelve
West Indian estates. These accounts had been furnished to
him by one mercantile house alone. On the first estate the
loss had been 2501. ; on the second, 2,420/. ; on the third,
832/. ; on the fourth, 5,083/. ; on the filth, 3,4701. ; on the
sixth, 3,440/. ; on the seventh, 8,0181. ; on the eighth,
10,201/. ; on the ninth, 2,259/. • on the tenth, 442/. ; on the
elkenth, 47. q. ; and, on the twelfth,. 7701. ; and yet
the Bight Honourable. Gentleman would endeavour to
persuade the House that the measure he proposed
would secure the prosperity of the West Indian colonies.
With respect to the certificate of origin, the general feeling
was that of dissatisfaction and distrust. The colonists thought
that the temptation al the amount of duty between 345. and
635. would be too great, and that all precautions against the
introduction of slave sugar would be useless, and that it would
inevitably find its way into this country. If the Government
could not prevent extr naive frauds in their own Custom-house,
how would they be able to prevent frauds in Custom-houses
abroadi?—( Hear, hear.) He considered that there was a great
probability of sugar bring imported from the States of Arne-.
now. They might expect to see many shipn eats of sugar from
that country. The Government might obtain a considerable
increase of revenue from t is change, but he contended that
this increase would be at the expense of the colonists Ile
wished to my a few words on the subject of coffee. '1 he duty
on coffee was reduced from eightpence to sixpence. He was
wired that the.people ofthit country would not buy-Brazilian

coffee, becalm of its bad flavour. But this dietuabing oftlie duties , appointing to every interest it appred to. His Hon. Friend
had the most pernicious effects. What cot:Vence (multi the said it did not assist the revenue, that it did not please the free
merchants have :n the stability of the present state re thinom ? traders, though they would rote for it, and that it still less
—(llear, hear.) The motion that he heel brought forward pleased the West Indian proprietors, because it admitted to the
was the result of mature censideretion on tee I, trt of those . home market, at a reasonable duty, what had been before ex-
most. interested in the suhjoet. Other countries had a system eluded. When they di•cussed.this question, they must bear in
of differential duties. Looking to the wording f the 1311, he 1 mind that there was a great and growing feeling in tte
was informed by those whom he consulted on the tuhject t at mind against any rntection beyond what the necessity of the
the higher quality of Jere sugar would be introduced under case required ; and in fixing the sum which he thought the
the Bill. tie thought, at all events, they should not -justice of the case required, he considered it better to fix
be left to the whim of Cu-tom-home ollicers.—( Hear, it at the amount he had done than to be under the necessity of
hear. ) Ile was told that compensation had been making further reductions hereafter. It was disagreeable to
given, but could that he called conmentatian which did not be placed to oppoahion to those with whom he generally acted,
give the `Vest India interest one-fifth of what they ought to and for whom he had a' gr. at pers. nal esteem; but he eoult
get ? lb thought that if they had a free system of immtgratien amuse the Hon. Gentlemen thatehe hael acted in the present
in the West Indies they would not have so much to complain. case under the certain impression that the measure was one for
( Hear, hear.) But that was not allowed, and now their colo• their own ultimate interest. Ile believed the weret thing that
niett would be worse than useless, unlesstliey were supported by a could happen for the colonies was, that sugar should rise in
"ffiei
! d duty. In Jamaica, Trinidad ant! Guiana, price, in this country, to the level at which it had been ;
t'hetrnicteo7in
labour was elef. an hour, while in Barbados it and whatever tee colonies might have suffered—% he-
was only 2 1. ; the consequence of this was that it occasioned 1 ever they might have loot by the suppression of the sys-
a difference in the value of estates. It had been stated that tem of apprenticeship, which was prematurely cut sho t—
the legit, particularly that of Jamaica, had teen worn out. yet the feeling was strong that considerations of individual
He had travelled over the island, and coal contradict that interest should give way for the general good of the community.
assertion, They might be sure that as long as their col tries Notwithstanding alrthat had been said on the subject, he firmly
existedthey would require protection. The Right Hon. believed that the measure was a sound one, and that it was nut
Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, might suppose adverseoo the permanent interest of the colonies themselves.
that his pre position would have the effect of injuring the He recommended the measure to the House, and he thought
re enne, but he did not think such would •be the case. The the House would concur with the Government in the view he
colonial sugar mmkets could not be he a worse condition than hal taken.
they then were.. and the shipping interest connected with the Me. LABOUCHERE said the speech of e Right
Weet 'mean trade was in a meat depressed state. He wished Honourable Gentleman had strongly tended to increase the
the Right Chancellor of the Exchequer impression Ire felt, when the financia. statement of the Govern-
e
w, in the West Indies, en then he ment was made, that the discussion of this question, and that
,u,:d pay G
th en,,seem estates te tsh
would see that those territories which formerly produced of the income-tax, (might not to have been separated. He
the cane in abundence, were now overrun with wood regretted that the Goverurrient had severed these two questicins.
and weeds. St. Domingo, formerly so productive, The House came with great eisadveniage to the discussion of
was now in a most impoverished condition, which them, but they could not bele themselves. They were in
might be chiefly attributed to the emancipation of Committee on the sugar duties, tied they must discuss them in
the slaves. He die not come forward to ask any ex rbitant the beat mariner they mule. It sea, his intention to support
protection in favour ef the. West Indian colonists. He only the motion of the Hon. Member for lir stol. The question was
asked so much as would Screen them fiom total ruin. He had the choice between the measure of tier .'Majesty's Government
hitherto given his consistent support to the Government, hut and that. of the Hon. Member, and he censidered the plan
he beliemd it to he his bounden duty to oppose them on this Le' the Hon. Menther the best of the two. —( Hear, hear. )
oreasier. He felt it useless to appeal to the Treasury benches, He would now proem deo consider this question with regard
as he knew he ehoirlii find no mercy there; lie felt it eepally to the biters-ta of the eon -urtfrt the West Indian interest, and
useless to appeal to the Hon. Gentlemen opposOe, who were in the :Teepee, And, as compared with the et:lie:x.le of the Csovern.
famine of is free trade in sugar. But he turned with some teeny, he theueto that the o ()position of the lion, Member for
&Tree of eonfitterme to the agricultural' Members. —( Ironical Bristol would be far more beneficial to the consumer in this
cheers from the Om:wirier). ) 1 hey surely ought to eupeort country, who e ieterests should be first in their regard.—
the coloniete. as she. cam of these men might very soon be their (Cheers.) How the Right lion. Gentleman could argue that
own.-(Lae,:zhirr.) The same principle applied to both. The the measure of the Government would be more beneficial to
only &fee e se was, that liese we grow corn, there they grow the consumer was tohim persectle astounding.—(ilear, hear. )
sugar.—(llear, hear. ) The lion. Gentleman conclude d by Perhaps the Government inteneed to re-open this que-tion
prneosing his amendmer t, and expressing his regret that he had next year in conn xion with the income-tax, but it that were
not hen able to address his arguments in a more effective manlier so, was there ever an important public interest treated ia such
I to the Howe. a way as tee Wes' interest was by the present Govetn-
.
Mr. BAILEY seconded the amendment, and oheerved that ment?—(Chi era.) I. was desirable they st.oulei have some
the Right Hon. C;,rolernan, the President of the Board of explanation foam the Government ito the suliject, because the
Trade, had. in cernbattine some aeteumenta of the N.,ble language used by the Government had me (tad conmeniatien
Lord, the Member for the City of London. misquoted the re- ammo the mereliante, and produced a perfect magnatieen in
turns of the price of American sugar, oe rather misrep-emented trade.--(Hear. hear.) The principle of the Government
those rote ne. in ord. rto suit his own purpose. Ihe Right meastr ta, if principle it had, was that they should exelude
Hon. Member quoted the retorts of the price of sugar at New shier-grown sugar, and i a-rel with their best customers to
York, which set ferth that the price in that city was from give every encouragement to Lee labour produce. But so-
-355. to 40s. per acts, whereas the average price in New Or- body blieved that they could obtain that object. Not a
leans, as appeared from tete return., wag Wily "t's. per eAt.—, single Minister had said that in his conscieece he believed they
( Hear, hear. ) The lion. member then quoted from the last would be able to do a ; but the Right Hen. Gentleman, the
official returns of the United soma, which stated that in New President of the B and of Trade, said that if it came in it
Orleans sugar was only tee cents per lb., or '2ss. per beat., and would no: be on their consciences.
these decurnents further specified, that since the American • Mr. GLADSTONE denied that he said se.
tariff had been passed the increase of sugar had been very great, Mr. LA BOUCHERE said he should he sorry to misrepre-
Particulerly in the State of Louisiana. In truth, the Bill was sent the Right Hon. Gentleman. Fie was under the impute-
brought into the House under a false pretence-4 Hear, hear) sion that he said so ; but it was, at all ev nts, utt; ply absurd to
—and the arguments of the Government in supporting it were suppose that they could exclude sugar. He held in his hand
grounded upon false data. Slave-grown sugar would not be rather a curious document. It. was an extract from the Ha•
kept out of the English market by the 11;11. By this Bill vannah Price Current, of the 9th of May. This was when it
Asa-erica would be enabled to send sugar to this country at a was understood what would be the general features of the
cheaper duty than it could come from our own colonies. If measure of her Majesty's Government.
this were the case, then a vacuum would he treated in the sugar The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
market of America, and that vacuum would have to to Stied up measure of her Majesty's Government could not have been
with the slave-grown produce of Cuba and Brazil. This Bill known then.
would, therefore, be indirectly an encouragement to slavery And Mr. LABOUCHERE said he thought it was pretty gene-
the slave-trade. Now, he wished to ask the Right. Hon. 13a- rally known what that measure would be, after the discussion
ronet whether it was his intention to enter into a treaty of which had ti ken place on the subject of the Brazil treaty.—
commerce with Brazil ? eithe did so, the first article of that (Hear, hear.) At. all events, the merchant who wrote the
treaty should be to place Brazil cn the footing of the most fa- extract he was about to read, made a pretty accurate guess.
voured nation. lie (Mr. !Ailey) thought the people of the He said that during the last month large purchases of sugar
eountry'had to complain f the mouse which the Government had been made, and at a hither price, in consequence of the
had taken on the subject. To show the necessity for this Bill, London advises of March, from which it appeared that there
the Government oitght to have shown that the supply of sugar was an intention of an alteration in the English duties, which,
this year wag less than the demand. This, however, was not though indirectly, would increase the quantity of Havannah
the case, for the returns showed that the stock in hand this sugar exported to Europe.—( Cheers.) He was more inclined
time last. year was 31,000 tons. while this year it was 38,000 to believe the merchant who wrote this, than the calculations
tons. He believed that the vacillating and uncertain course of and prophecies of her Majesty's Government, who would per-
her Majesty's Government would, if 1 eraisted in, involve a suede them that the system of certificates would effect the
large portion of the empire in the greatest destitution and exclusion of slave grown sugar from this country. It was a
distreas. perfect delusion to suppose that they would have such an
Mr. EWART could not support the proposition of the effect. He hoped they would have a more satisfactory expla-
Hon. Gentleman, because it maintained a difference in the duty nation from her Majesty's Government than had yet been ob-
on sugar in one part of the world and sugar grown in another. mined on the subject of those certificates. It was a system
Ile did not believe that the proposition would be of that benefit entirely novel in their Custom-house regulations. The notion
to the country which the loon. supporters of it had anticipated. of certificates of origin coming from foreign ports, and de-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought pendent for their accuracy on the signature of foreigners, ex-
the speeches which the two Hon. Gertlemen who had pro- cept that they were to be seen by her Majesty's Consul, never,
pesed the amendment had delivered, applied but ill to the re- he believed, came into the head of any Government except
solution which had be, p submitted to the Committee that even- that of her Majes.y's present Government.—( Hear, hear.)
ing. 'I he Hon. Member for Bristel had stated that the reso- Then what a duty did they impose on her Majesty's Consul ?
!mien of the Government would give protection to the slave_ How was their Consul at New Orleans to act and decide upon
trade, but he (the Cbancellor of the Exchequer) would the different representations which would be made to him ?
ask whether the Honourable Gentleman's own pro- The fact was, that the scheme ot the Government would get
proposition would tend in any way to discourage that trade? them into interminable difficulties with fore-gn countries.
To come more messily, however, to the preposition then be- These who thought that the scheme of the Government was
fore the House, if he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) were better than that of the Hon. Member for Bristol, were of
prepared to agree to any further reduction of the duties on opinion that the sugar of Java, Manilla, and Siam, would not
sugar he should not be willing to make them as suggested. come in at the low duty of 30s, but at the high cluty of 345.
Dui be think such reduction desirable he should prefer to He (Mr. Labouchere);eloubted that it would be so. He held in
effect it in such a way as to give an advantage to the con- his hand a emir rit upon which reliance might be placed, of the
sumer, and also very probably to throw some of the money into average price of the various descriptions of sugars in bond in
the pockets of intermediate parties. He must, however, be the months of May, June, July, and August, in the eeara
permitted, whilst speaking to the proposition itself, to eongra. 1839, 1840, 1841, 1842, and 1843. Not to go thiough the
tulate the House that there was so much egreement between whole, he would take that for 1e43, and he found by it that
it and that wl ich he himself had had the hunt-or to submit to the average price of Java, Manilla, and Siam brown sugar in
their consideration.—( Murmurs from the back. Ministerial bond averageet 19s per cwt. The price of white Brazil suear
benches.) His Hon. Friends behind, by the prepeeitien which during the same month was 235., and of yellow sugar 17s. 6d.
they had submitted, showed that they agreene with him that The price of Havannah white sugar was 2r s., of buten, 19s.
there ought to be a distinction made between- colonial and The consequence he deduced from treee figures was this :
foreign auger, at d that also agreed with him that whatever was that the greater part of the sugar produced in Java, Mantra,
the reduction, it should be made es early as poasible His-Hon. and Siam;and in bond in London at that t me, must have more
Friends behind hint also told the House that. he• thorrightly elesely resembled the brown sugars which would be intro-
estimated the amount of protection that theyaresired. - (Loud euced under the 30s. duty than the white sugar which would
cries of " No, no," and expressions of surprise.) Why, they be introduce at 345.: His opinion was that they would have a
proposed precisely the same amount of protection as he had considerably larger supply of brown Muscovado sugar at the
propos, d, and the only distinction-between the two measures low duty than of the white sugar at :he high duty, end that
was this, that he (the Chancellor of . the Exchequer) tub- consequently the consumer would be greatly benefited.—a
mated a measure without a reduction of revenue. There But he would not consider exclusively the interests of the con-
might., perhaps, be si me fraction of ailifference between them. eumer. He would also consider the interests of the West
but he confessed he looked upon it as of so minute a character India planters, and he rejoiced that on this on anion he could
as not to be worth one moment's consideration ; and, there- support a plan that reconciled their interests with
fore, he was justified in saying that even in the the interests of the consumers. (Hear, hear.)
view of his Honourable Friends Ite hind him, ten Then, with regard to revenue, it was not all, ged by the Chan-
seillings • protecting duty wet looked upon as a'le- cellar of the Exchequer that he felt any great alarm at the
quate nod sufficient. If then the protection was the motion of the Hen. Member for Bristol on accoun. of the re-
name in both cases—the same according to the plan of the Go- venue, nor in his ( Mr. Labouchere's) opinion was there any
vernment, and the same according to the suggestion of his fear on that account. He would vote for the scheme
friends—if they had the same advantages hereafter against come of the lion. Member for Bristol as 'preferable to that of the
pining parties as they themselves proposed—what was the be- Government. Any attempt to distinguish het, een slave-
. nefit they pro, toed to attain by the course they were now pur- grown sugar and free-labour sugar would be fraueht with diffi-
suineh? 'The end would he this, that there would be a loss to eulty and danger, and would be proved to be altogether nuga-
the revenue, no benefit to the consumer, and the duty that was tory. It was most important that there should be a permanen.
sacrificed they hoped to get into their own pockets in whole or settlement of this question, mid confidence amongst the mar.
iMpart. Now, in discussing the two proposals before them, it eantile interest was far better than a duty of Is. more or lessf
was the duty of the House to consider how they would operate For the re esons be had given he should support the motion o
on the different interests affected by them. •To begin with the the Hon. Member for Bristol.—(Cheers.)
case of the consumer. With respect to his (the Chancellor of Mr. GODSON could not congratulate the body to which he
the Exchequer's) proposal his friends behind him stated that in belonged on the Right lion. Gentleman's advocacy. It avae
its working it wined only give to the consumer the advantage not pretended that this was anything more than a temporary
oo in the pound. He timely, admitted that the measure. It was under stood by all parties that it would be made
benefitt
was small, and not as good as mieht beer. been wished. known next year precisely upon what footing the duties were
But his object had necessarily been two-fold—to consult the to be placed. lie looked forward to a time when there would
cemfort ot the consumer, and to regard the interests of the re- be a duty of 14s. or ss. and that change he believed would be
e halfpeony
venue. Now it was necessary to state that when he made up a real benefit to the consumer. In the meantime, he be-
his mind to propose a measure ha reference to the sugar duties lieved the alteration would not make a difference of more
he acted under the pressure of a feeling which still exercised it- than 5,000 or 6,000 tons in the, year. The question was
self poweieully upon him, that during the latter part of the year often staked why there should be any difference at ail between
which had to arrive there would probably be a considerable the duty Ow colonial and that of foreign sugar. He thought
se arcity'in the article of sugar. And this expectation he had the simple answer to that objection existed in the fact that
founded, not ooloese statements. but on a careful consideration the colonies were their own. All the instruments used
of facts communicated to him, and on a consideration of what in the production came from England : their rates were all
had occurred in antecedent years. These expectations were the same; there was the same Church Establishment ; there
confirmed by the %Veit iodise tarty them-elves. From the were, in all reseects, in fact, similar expenses ; and that
best sources he could consult he had come to the conclusion being the case, he thought it was but just that there should
that the supply of sugar for 1844 would be about 227. 00 tons; be a distinction made between the colonies and foreign coun-
or equal to that which they had anticipated in 1843. Ile tries. He regarded the present measure as an indication
Kell to the great drought in Jamaica, of what was to take place next year. If the
the faiklunreeoftthhaetcroo"l'iisng had been most extensive, and he could duty were reduced down to 15s next year, the free-labour
speak with the more confidence on this point, because his own sugar would; of course, be admitted, and then would come the
in ba fir one of the most fertile question of the admission of sugar from Cuba and Brazil, in
portions partaken of the general unpro- which the question of the slave-trade should riot be lest sight of.
hitteadtaill the dis riot he referred to had He would not vote for the motion of the Hon. Member fur
theyt,,,,,,h,fiahtitehw,hja.hhtwee:aseiarsnoiy,iu,
fallen so,
counted by hundreds they now only Bristol, because he thought that by doing so he would pledge
counted by tens Ile had also been infoimed, on the very best himself to consent to a larger extension of the principle in
authority, that a number of estates had been given up. An 1 future.
therefore, when he haei to make his estimate of the probable re- Sir. BERNAL thought the arguments of his lion. and
ceipts of sugar, he (mule not but come to the conclusion that Learned Friend were mostelnconclusive. Mille was such a friend
they must nut calculate fir this year on a larger import than to a general settlement, why was he so enamoured of the pre-
fer the year 18'3- There were a number of persons, ho ea sent preposition ? Why did he not oppose this at-
ever, who complained strongly of the way in which the sugar tempt to take a tithe of the change on that
duties were levied—of the ant utl discussions—( Hear, hear)— occasion when he expected a final settlement next
upon the subject, ant of the unsettled state in which property year Hear.) They must look their difficulties in the face
and trade were kept by it.—(General and loud cries of He considered the course advocated by his Hon. Friend oppo-
.* Hear, hear.") tie was ready to admit that the pretest in-- site one in which he was imperatively called on to concur. He
security which existed on this subject was a great evil, and had heard it hinted on that side that there might be some
that it was most desirable .to put those duties on a more stable conspiracy in the proposal of 345. in reference to the free-
footing. And when the time came that the income-tax must grown sugar of Manille and Java. He did not believe that
he taLen into consideration, in connexion with the great sub- any conspiracy existed. The Hon. Gentleman then made a
jests of the trade, commerce, and revenue of the country. it detailed statement of the process of claying and refining
would be for the House to mike up its mind whether it-would auger?, snit explained the difference betwe, n clayed sugars,
not recur, as regarded the sugar duties, to that state of per- Muscovado sugars, and bastard sugars. He was surprised to
manence to whaitmet former:), rebelled, butte which perhaps hear tee statement of the Hon. Member for Dumfries, that the
h meet.: it Might properly p, efer to return.—( Hear, hear.) differential duty between the Muscovado and the clayed sugars
hi
m se what
effectupon en of tits friende be- , had been reduced at the solicitation of the West India body.
n would What would be He believed that a !elicitation to Chet effect might have ema-
the effect? Witt, that du, log, the intervening period be- nat, d tram the groce. s and the refiners, bet it had certainly
have !thhee ie
r.
tween this and the time they proposed that their scheme I not emanated from the West India body. The Right Hon.
should come in's operation, they would paralyse the trade— Gentleman had sael that. the Custom-house officers could not
!hey gave an intimation to every man who was now about to , distinguish between the eluacovaio and the clayed sugars.
huts not to do so. The effect of that would be to stint the , but he really could not imagine that there could
market to the neatest possible degree, and all that incon- be any difficulty in distinguishing between them. If no
veiiience would result te the consumer which a contracted difference were made between cleated and Muscovado sugar, a
market necessarily occasioned ; and this, too, would take great hardship would be infreted upon. the West India body.
place precisely when meat mischief would be occationed ; No clayed sugars were prepared in the West Indies—he believed
when, from the abundance of ,rust, the den end for sugar none were prepared in the East Indies or the Mauritius, and it
ought to be the greeted and the supply ought to be accorded to f would be a great hardship if the clayed and crushed sugars of
the lergest extent pomiele. In considering this (petition they Siam, which had undergone a partial process of refinement,
were bound to look at its effect on the revenue. He antiei- were admitted at the same duty as the Bluscovado sugar. The
paled frein this alteration a loss, at first, of 66 eOOO/. to the I words of the Bill were " clayed, but riot reined ;" those words
revenue, against which was to be placed the increase that were calculated to produce confusion. He protested against
would probably arrive in the latter part of the year. It was I being fettered in any suesequent transactions by supporting
necestary that. ,hey shoal keep the revenue up to its usual 'this measure, except that he admitted that the Wert. Indians
amount, or they wonid not be able to give the House that could not expect any protection beyond 10a. He thought the
fair opportunity of discussing the continuance of the West Indians ought to have some relief afforded them in the
tax, which it was most desirable the House shoultl have. With : article of rum.—( Cheers.) It was ridiculous that it should
respect to the risk that it was said would arise from the admis• I be excluded from the markets of Scotland and Ireland by the
sion of Java and Manilla sugars into the home market, he . differential duty at present existing—( Hear, hear)—arid he
had made diligent inquiry into the subject, and he could not r Vra= also of opinion that molasses should no longer be excluded
discover in the ware-houses of London any Manilla en .lava from the distilleries by the present absurd regulations.
sugar of a higher quality than the usual sugar in the n arket. ' Mr. 130UVERIE, in allusion to the statement which had
of any additional item been made, that there was a conspiracy among the West India
He net db,i.d tariff;no t, therefore,
tbt wau
ldseoenityhe ec
leandteossgirteyat doubt and confusion. body to carry this motion, would observe, that although there
Whether it might be possible to draw a'inore clear and 'deft- was'no direct evidence of conspiracy, yet, i: they admitted the
nice distinction between the different sorts of sugar he did not ' doctrine of conspiracy as laid down in another country, there
know, but it was a point well deserving consideration. At certainly was evidence of a conspiracy among the West India
one period he made a proposition of that kind to the House, body to carry this motion.—(Cheers and laughter.) If he
whmkb however,.Lora John
Hear, hear," could be convinced that the proposition of the Hon. Member
from
ere was a combination for Bristol would not create an additional differential
rd w as
Russell.)
notus favourablyell.ilreceive,l._(..
against it of ' aeembers on both sides of the House ; duty, he would support it, but as far as he could understand it,
arid his only consolation under the diffictilties of the slues- the effect of the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol
Lion was the confession of Lord Sidinouth, in his place would be to create a differential duty of 14s. instead of one of
in the House, that he thought the attempt was extremely 10s., as proposed by the Government, and, therefore, he should
praiseworthy ' • and he regretted that he should ever have vote against it.—(Hear, hear.) In a revenue point of view,
opposed it. His Hon. Friend had entered into a variety of it was of importance that the money raised to carry on the
topics that were rather applicable to the general principles on Government should be raised in the manner the least bur-
which a country should be governed than to the immediate densome to the people, but it was also a funlamental prin.
question before the House. Be knew that there was a great ciple that no portion of the money so raised should go to any
objection to the principle of free trade, as applied to this and purpose except to the support of the S.ate.—( Cheers.) Now
other questions. This might to some extent be owing to the what was the operation ot the differential duties? A differen-
obloquy the phrase hail acquired from the way in which it had tial duty of 41s. per cwt. gave the West Indian and the East
been used. But he was no', fur that reason, to be deterred Indian proprietors a monopoly of the market. Whatever
frirbetween the con- amount of differential duty was Imposed, if it did not give a
eibecause was "u
hehai4le
had tried to reconcile con- monopoly, it gave a bonus to the whole amount of the differen-
tltdein doing oirtamtt whaties. heit
was thoi i
h
tending parties—to reconcile the interests of the producer with tial duty.—( Hear, hear.) ,He could not see any reason for
that of the consumer—that he had exposed himself to the giving an additionel bonus to the West India proprietors.
:putation of having brought-forward a- mourn -that was Even.. at &differential duty of 10s.- 6d:, which was.proposed by

the Govcrrment, the West India proprietors had, during the
last four year., received 2,030,C00i., and the additional half-
Fenny proposed by the Ih.n. Gentleman would give them
1318,0001. more, which would be taken from the purposes of
the State, and must be raised out of the pockets of the
Ivo; le to supily the deticien,y. Now if evcryth'ing went
well with the West Indians, there might be some excuse for
continuing this system ; but they had always been complain,
..f suffering and loss since they hal teen under tiie system
of protecti ,n. It was useless for them to say that the abolition
of slavery had produced these losses and s &rings. They made
the same complAintsbAire slavery seas abviithed. He held is his
hand a memorial from the West India proprietors, in 1401,
con'aining the Sit 11•• complaints. ;t was clear then that they
did not prosper under the system, and he wouLl reeom,nend
them to try another. Let them try the system of free triale.—
( Hear, hear.) Why should not free trade answer with regard
to sugar as nea as tt had with regard to silk ?—( Hear, hear. )
They had better at once make the change, and consent to an
equalization of _ _ _

Mr. F. BARING was not surprised that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer should be anxious to confine the discussion to
the proposition immediatiately before the House, and should
not diverge into a discussion vu the principles of the measure.
He could net but recollect the arguments which had been used
against the proposition which he had a bmitted to the House
in 1841—how slightingly and contemptuously the arguments
he had ventured to use had been passed over. He had been
assured by the night Hon. Gentleman, the present Chancellor
of ,he Exchequer, that there was no neces,ity for alteration—
the prices would fall—that there would be an ample supply for
the West Indian Colonies and for India, and that the most per-
fect reliance could be placed upon the estimated amount of the
supply. Ile had ventured to suggest that the estimates might
be exaggerated, and that the supply would not equal the de •
mull. The. ISieht Hon. Gentlemen found that the arguments
which he had then card were now used against himself by
the Hen. Gentlemen behind him. Night after night had he
(Mr. Baring) been taunted with these estimates. and now the
Right Hen. Gentlemen who had so taunted hies told him very
coolly that they might be mistaken in their estimates. and
that in fact, no t &lance whatever could he placed upon them.
—(Loud cheers.) Another weighty areument was, that a
great exeerimei t. vas vire, on in the West Indies, and they
were a-ked how they could rec node it to their duty to
introduce the croneetttioe of sieve-grown sugar pending that
experiment. Wtat were they doing row ?-- ( Cheers.) The
price of West India s gar must be regulated according to
the proposed plan by the price of free labour sugar. Now, if
they had as ample a supply of free-labour sugar as they
wanted, its price must be regulated by the price of sugar in the
markets of the world i th-t was, by the price of slave-grown
sugar.— (Cheers ) The Right Hon. Gentleman gave a pro-
tection of 10, and a shade, which he calculated at 2s. Now
he (Mr. Baring) had eropesed a protection of 125., so (het
there was no great differenee between them. The great ar-
gument against his proposition had been. you are encouraging
slavery. What were they doing now ? He admitted they
were not doing it dirtnty. but they mete doing it ae
surly as it they took 10,ee0 tons of slave-grown sugar.
The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool had told them that
They were indirectly encouraging slavery, but the Noble Lord
had given no notice of a resolution now, as he had in 1d41.
( Cheers and laughter ) 'I he Government had adopted a
most. unfortunate course in stating that they would re-consider
the question next year. Whatever they intended to do they
should do at once, so as to disturb the markets as little as pos-
sille. They should not leave the sna'rkets for one whole year in
fear of they knew not what.—(Cheers and laughter.) tie had
heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that nothing could
be more unfortunate than for a Government to hold out an
expectation of change. At the commencement of the
present session his Hon. Friend the Member for London bad
asked the. Bight Hon. Gentleman a' the head of the Govern en,
if he intended to alter the sugar duties, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman had replied, that he could only suppose that such a
question could be put by the youngest Member in the House.
But the Hon. Member for London now had his revenge. The
Right Hon. Gentleman would not tell him three months be-
forehand what he intended to do; nothing could be more in-
jurious to trade. But now for a whole year they left the colo-
nial interest under the announcement of the proposed reconsi-
deration ; nothing could be more injudicious or more
inconsiderate. The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat
down, and who had addressed the House so well—( Cheers)—
had stated it as his opinion that there was concealed under the
proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol some intention of
a proposal for giving additional protection to the West India
interest. If he had the slightest idea that such would be the
effect of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, he would
not support it, as he intended doing. He did not believe it
would give any additional protection to the West India in-
interest beyond reducing the price of sugar, and that was a
legitimate advantage to which they were fairly entitled. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had fairly stated the pro-
position of the Hon. Member for Bristol, and he admitted
that the protection proposed by each of them was the same.
He feared the sugar of Cuba would come into this country.—
( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches. )
Yes, he did not wish to see the Government of this country
defeated in its main object; and if slave-grown sugar was to be
received, he wished it to be received only in a fair, open man-
ner.—(Hear, hear.) In 1841 the question of layed sugars
was brought under his consideration, and he proposed a gene-
ral duty of 365. Between the time of his announcement of
this plan and the period of its being brought under the full
consideration of the House, he received so many, and such
forcible, remonstrances, that be became perfectly cceivinced
that it would not be wise and discreet to put all sugars under
the same rate of duty. The consequence was, that though he
had announced his plan, he made the desired alteration in it.
The opinion of the late Mr. Hume, on which much weight
should be placed, was, that there ought to be three scales of
duty. The Chancellor of the Exch quer, it was true, told
them that it was the opinion of the Custom-house officers that
no difference of scale could be made. Well, he (Mr. Baring)
was not disposed to place much weight on the opinions of these
gentlemen. 'for when they understo d what the Chancellor oh
he Ex, h .quer's opinions were, they generally controvert
to mate theirs accordingly. What was imposs ble
to-day with them might become possible tomnerrow. H
held in bit hand an extract front the American tariff. and
thete he found that the duties were divided into three classes.
Nearly the same system prevailed in Holencl. He felt bound
to say that he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer be-
haved entremely fair in his statement regarding the revenue
lie entirely agreed with him in thinking that there would he a
considerable loss in the falling off in the revenue, but he knee
it e ould be only temporary, aid felt confident that the revenue
would recover itself in the course of next year. He regretted
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not based his system
on a more definite and permanent principle. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer said that there would be a reduction of
600,000 i. by the reduction of colonial sugar, and they would get
20,(.00 tons of sugar in addition to what was at present re-
ceived. By this additional 20,000 tons we get back hoe,ooo/.
of revenue, so that there was only a loss of 200,000/.—a very
small risk when compared with the good it would certain y
effect for the colonies. Mr. Huskisson was a careful, steady
man, yet in 1829' he proposed a reduction on colonial sugar
to 27e., and foreign sugar to 665. On that occasion Mr. Hus-
kisson was met by the argument of the reduction of the
revenue. The change was made, and it was anticipated that
542,000/. would be lost, but there was not one-half of that sum
lost. Ile hoped and believed the reduction of the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be attended with all the success anticipated
by him.
Mr. GLADSTONE said the Right Hon. Gentleman had
(and he was cot surprised at it) sought to distract the atten-
tion of the House from the real question under the considera-
tion of the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman talked
fluently of frauds and certificetes of origin, but they had
nothing whatever to do with the motion of the Hon. Member
for Bristol. The great charges against the Government were
that they disturbed and unsettled public mind and left the
colonies to the chance of the future. Now the fact was the
Government could not have made a final settlement of the
sugar question at present—the consideration of the income-tax
;thine . was sufficient to prevent a decisive arrangement.
He did not think it would be justice to the country to agree to
the proposition of the. Hon. Gentleman. If they did so, they
would take a short-sighted view of the interest of the colonial
producer. He granted that they had no reason to suspect that
there would be a deficiency of supply, if they measured the
supply by the supply of former years. But was the demand
likely to be the same as in former years ? Had there not been
a great change in the state of the country? Now what was
the state of the market for the four months during which the
sugar duty remained in a state of uncertainty—that was
the four months which elapsed before the declaration of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer ? If they compared the prices
of the four months of this year with the corresponding four
months of the last year, they would find an average rise of
id. in the prices of the present year. He therefore said
that they might fairly expect a scarcity this year. A gentle-
man named Ripley, with a deputation from Liverpool, had
waited upon him (Mr. Gladstone) upon this subject, and he
stated that the measure of the Government would have the
effect of reducing the price of sugar lid. per pound, taking
the prices then ruling. He would beg the House to remem-
ber that this year the Gazetted average price was higher than
it was last, when it was known that the measure. which was to
be proposed would not be a permanent one. One great object
of the proposal of the Government was to so arrange
as to be a great benefit to the consumer. The Go-
vernment had been induced to propose this measure
from a sense of the great evils attending an absolute state of
uncertainty. This Bill went to create a permanence in this
great branch of our commerce. It would establish the duty
which was to he imposed upon sugar the produce of slavery,
and the sugar the prheluce of free labour, and also to fix the
amount of protection to the colonists, which was to be main-
tained. He complained that the measure of his Hon. Friend
the Member for Bristol would have a most injurious effect on
the trade in sugar in this country. He asked his Hon. Friend
the Member for Bristol whether the reduction which be
proposed in British Plantation sugar was to be a permanent
arrangement ? He would take the answer eitherone way or the
other. Did his Hon. Friend contemplate a further reduction
in the duty met year? If he did, then what became of
argument respecting the permanent settlement of the question ?
It he did not contemplate a further reduction in the duty, then
he (Mr. Glad-tone) said that his Hon. Friend was not just
to the colonists in the protection which he imposed,
nor was 1 e just to the consumer in this country.
The Moro Member for Bristol had not given any reason for
re-opening the question of thooe duties at a future time. Re-
ference had been made in the course of the debate to a letter
which was published that day (Friday) in the Times newspaper.
That letter was written by a gentleman who had long been
connected with the West 'lndies. But that Gentleman had
assured him this day, that although he disapproved of the pro-
position of the Government, he would prefer it to the measure
of the Hon. Member for Bristol. lie did not object so much
to the principle of classification as to the mode of classification
proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for 13rit-o 1 A d
log to the present law great injustice was done to the producers
of inferior sugar of British colonies. The distinction proposed
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite would operate most injuriously
on the colonies. He thought that the measure of the Govern-
racist was the best that could be proposed, and he called on the
Committee to support it.
Mr. M. GIBSON (who rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,
divide") said that he had crone down to the House disposed to
vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol, but, on
examining snore carefully the terms of the motion, and looking
to its objects, he found that the object of the lion. Member,
and of those who supported him, was to give the West Indies
a protection of I4s. per cwt. A gentleman in the City, who
was well acquainted with the subject, told him that he (Mr.
M. Gibson) was not " awake to the trap" for the free traders.
--(A laugh.) When he saw the anxiety of the West India in-
terest to oppose this proposition, be looked on with suspicion.
--(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, regarding as he
did, that both the propositions before the House contained the
principle of protection, but believing that the measure of the
Government went further in the direction of free trade than
did that of the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Miles), he
should certainly give his support to that of the Government.
Mr. HUME said that his own opinion was, that the mea-
sure would greatly assist trade, and that, say what they might,
or do what they might, there would be no pro-
hibition to slave-grown sugar. Indirectly it would
be admitted. Indeed, his opinion was, that there
would be a very considerable addition to the supply of sugar.
Slave-grown and free-grown sugar would get into the market
alike. But what the House ought to consider was not the
interest of the West Indian planter, or any of the many inte-
rests that bad been referred to in the course of the debate,
but the interest of the consumer. That was the only light in
which they ought to look at the question. The plan of the
Hon. Member for Bristol be (Mr. Hume) did not hold to be
a good one. •, But a good sound plan never would be got
until they bhanged-their plan altogether. During the time