The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

partmeat, who asked whether they would apply the axe
to the root of the commercial greatness of the country?
His Noble Friend talked of applying it to the root of the
moral evil ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman altered the
application of the expression as used by his Noble Friend.
But was it possible that the eommercial greatness of this
country depended on keeping children at work twelve
hours, instead of ten? In 1833 a gentleman; in whose
political sentiments he did not cpincide—the late Mr.
Cobbett—said he had heard of the greatness of the coun-
try depending, on some occasions, on the learned pro-
fessions, on other on able statesmen ; but he had never
before heard of its consisting in working little girls two
hours a day. He could not see, as stated by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, how a diminution of 25 per cent.
Would result from a remission of one-sixth of the labour.
—(Hear, hear.) ,He could not - see how the diminution
could amount to more than the 'diminution of time.—
(Hear, hear.) Even if it were the fact, which he did
not believe it wag; that the manufactures of the country
would be .perilled. by the ten hours' system, yet he was
riot prepared to say that the moralaspect was not to be
preferred to the commercial one.—(Hear, hear.)
When they were told that the children were brought
up decrepit and depraved,-he doubted 'whether the com-
mercial view should not give weight to the consideration
which would remedy this state of things.—(Hear.) If
there was - a--loss in wages to the workmen he would
make it up to them by more healthy and vigorous con-
stitutions and by. a higher tone of moral . feeling.—
(Hear.) It had been asked how the workmen were to
live. He would-say there was no danger of starving in
this country.—(" Oh, oh,", and Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that those who received the highest wages were
not the most moral or the most provident.—(lronical
cheers.) He had only stated-What he had been told.
nit object would be to Put every person on such a foot
-
Mg that might get as good wages as he could.--
(Cheers.) That met with a general assent, and it ought
to be the object which every wise legislator should have
in view. The present system had been productive of a
vicious state of society. Men were now supported by their
wives and children, which induced themt to melee ,early
marriages. He thought great confusion had been intro-
duced into the debate, in consequence of the course
adopted' by the Government. The decision of the
House of Commons had been already twice come to on
the subject, ,andif. the Government had a Majority on
the present debate, there would be two conflicting. deci-
sions. A case better decided be did not know in the
course of his Parliamentary career, They now sought to
change the Opinions of their usual- supporters, but not,
a single independent supporter of the -Government
went with them on the lite decision.
Mr. CARDWELL 'said • that lie had endeavoured to
possess himself of 'the real merits of the questien now
before the House, and although he had not the good for-
tune of coming to the same Conclusion as `the Noble Lord.
(Lord Ashley) and Could not, therefore, give his vote nn
what he knew was the popularside of it, yet he begged
to, assure the Noble Lerd and the Committee that the
main .object present, to his mind in coming to a sound
conviction on the subject, had been not to come to-any
conciiisionwhichWould linpede the growing.prosperity
of the great operative Classes of this country.—(Hear,
hear.) In reference to the public this subject had been,
remarkably divided into two sides, one! sustaining-the
commercial view of the subject, - and the other resting'
almost entirely on the basis of humanity and mOrAlity.
An Hon,Gentlentan.sadopted an illustration which he
believed was not new from him ; it had been taken he'
believed from the classical historian of Manchester, who
said that those engaged tin manufacturing pursuits
"passedthrough the fire to Moloch, and through filth to
Mammon." Such was the language addressed to those
who felt called on by their convictions to vote against
him on this subject. He not deny it
was .possible to take the commercial view of the
subject alehe, and that there might, be sordid then, who
would'extratt as great an amount of wealth as-they could,
regardless of the sufferings of ethers. He admitted that
such a view of- the case might be taken; bill he 'denied
that it 3vas possible, from the nature of-the case,: for any
person'wholooked at the subject with- judgment, and
applied his mind firmly to its consideration, to leave out
thelcommercial view of the -Subject altogether, and rest
_it solely on morality and humanity (Cheers.) Was it
posXible for persons who had 'the least experience on the
subject, or who, having no experience, possessed an or-
dinary capacity, and applied it diligently to-the Consi-.
deretion of the case, to take a view regarding solely the
physical and moral well-being of the operative, and
leatiing out from his Consideration the commercial view,
whiCh so deeply affected the interests or the operative
classes themselves?—(Hear, hear.) _ He Would ,ask the
.11otise to consider bow largely the operatives of the corn-
triunity were benefited-by the prosperityof British com-
merce.---(Hear, hear.) In proportion to the results
affected by it, how trifling was their most extensive
charity?—(Cheerso. In proportion to it, how meagre
was their best contrived legislation? -He said, there-
fore, that to talk for a single moment of taking
the view of the question -apart from commer7.
cial considerations, and
.resting,` it ,on the bergs
of humithity, and. Morality,. ;,was not becoming
dignity of 'the House, of Coranions.-7-(Cries
" Hear, hear.") He begged Of. them to beware, lest, by
opposing a Ten Hours' Bill,: they:might notgive occasion,
to those,for whose benefit he knew it,was intended most
to bitterlyrue it.--,(Hear.) In legislating on this subject,
there were two objects whichthey must be most desirous
Of combining. One was that they should give really-
efficient
.protection to those who, from their tender
years, were incapable of. protecting themselves; the
other was, that they should leave free as the Winds
of lieauen, to the judgment; Management, and economy
of 'the individuals themselves, the labour of' those who
wercapable of protecting themselves—(Hear, hear)—
that. labour which, as had been so often observed, was
the , only property they possessed.—(Cheers.). He
found that her Majeaty:s
.Government, in the Bill which
they had laid on the table of the House, endeavour:ed to
effect these -two ohjeets--,7the protecting of those who
wanted protection, and the leaving of freedom to Lose
who! were capable 'of protecting themseivei.—( Heir.)
He did not think that to effect, those 'two
objects was wholly incompatible. The bestarrangements
which could possibly be' made was that which would
combine those two objeots. They had' endeavoured to
limit the hours of labour for children-‘to such an amount
that after devoting sufficient tine to labour they would
be able to employ the -remaining hours of the day .in
'securing, a good system of education. The Hon. Gen-
tlemen had- spoken of a system, of relays, , Now he (Mr.,
Cardwell) ,llad to complain of -the caution which-was.
ebserVed in—dpeiiiiirig of .tiheshbiect of relays. 'Were
they driving at &Uniform Ten Hours' Bill?-44flear.)
That was a question Which pressed itself very much on
his mind in considering the subject. - He might be' told
that the Noble Lord had said nothing-, about relays.
he (Lord Ashley) intended : that relays should be coin-
bined with a ten hours' system, he. had no right to say
that he had the feeling- of the large body of the mill
owners with him. He (Mr. Cantwell) knew that many
persons who came here in deputations said that -what
they wanted was a uniform Ten 14quis'
Were they prepared to put this in practice?—(Hear.)
_ Let them take care that they would not leave the great
proportion of the children in this country in a much
worse position than they were at present.—(Hear.)
He should he extremely reluctant to. cast the slightest
aspersion on ihe motives of any individual, but he must
. say he honeatly believed 'that the persons in that House
who advocated-the view of , the. Noble Lord the Member
for
.Dorsetshire, did so with the utmost sincerity and the
:purest philanthropy, but at the same time they deceived
theintelVes. He begged them .to consider . what
would be the .. effect of a • Ten Hours' pill
The effect would he that the adults would do
less and the children' mere• Work. Of the wages
earned a larger portion would be -screwed out of the
sinews of the. young than' fromthose of the adult. That
was a result against which, on grounds of morality and
humanity, the Committee was bound to guard with the
utmost possible vigilance. In seeking fora.Ten Hours'
Bill they were not seeking fora -practical measure, and
true humanity was always practice:. The proposal,'
therefore, which was now brought for Ward, with no doubt
‘-the best intentions, was not founded upon true humanity.
' On the subject of redueed wages he- had heard most
strange doctrines.,-;-;-(Cheers and oountereheers.) From
the speech of the Holt. Gentleman who spoke last he'
was at a loss to learn whether he thought low or high
wages better. , The cenclusion which he (Mr. C.)
should have drawn from the non. Gentleman's'aserva-
Oohs,' if "he were allowed to apply to them the common
principles of logic, was, that in low wages, there was a
protection against profligacy and improvident
management— (OppositiOn cheers and ' laughter) --
and that they . would promote the social virtues
in a. very great, degree—L(Hear, hear)—and that
they were a greafgood, which the House in its wisdom
should take upon itself to effeet. But was astonished
to hear the Noble Member for Dorsetshire speak of
wages as if 'they were measured in direct mathematical
proportion, to- the number of hours during which the
operative worked.—(Hear, hear.) -The Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last made- the same mistake. Wages were
measured by a different standard. They were
paid out of the profits of the . establishment.
Without profits there could be no wages, and
unless a set of philanthropists were found to under-
take the trade and commerce Of the country; it must be
assumed that there should be some profit. Then it was
quite clear that if they.took away part of the profit they
took away from ' the wages'. They had it from high
authority, that the reduction in wages Would be 25 per
cent., and he (Mr. C.) had no hesitation in belieVlng that
it would reach' that amount. Another question which
Hon. Gentlemen forgot, was, that of Machinery. In
these days of improvement, machinery, if not worn mit,.
became uselesi, and was obliged to be renewed in a few
'years. This_part of the subject, however, he only ad-
verted to in passing. The Hon. Gentlemen Who spoke
last talked of workmen being repaid for the loss' in their
wages by an increase of health. Now, his expe-.
rience
,shOwed him that when there were row
Wages, there . were also always' numerous complaints
'of suffering ; • and ftibugh -they had often heard of com-
binations of operatives to obtain a fair day's wages for
a fair day's work, they had never heard of combinations
to enforce short hours. Besides, it was to be borne in
mind that the operatives who petitiohed in favour of ten
hours were 'under the impression that the Noble Lord's
proposition would be carried without any reduction in
wages at all ' - and shat Manchester was, placarded with
the words "Less work—inere'Wages—sign for the Ten
Hours' Bill!"—(Hear.) That fallacy was very common.
If they thought that we had nothing to fear from fo-
reign competition they were greatly'mistaken, and they
would find eventually' that underthe name of humanity
they were inflicting a great cruelty on both operative
and master. The commercial prosperity 'of this country
was owing to the paradox, that the master manufacthrers
paid the lowest' wages, and that the operative received •
the highest Wages that any master paid or any operative
received-in the world: -Strange as that might seem to
be, it was perfectly true; and the explanation was this,
that the' master paid more 'money, but got a greater -
amount of work, -while the workman received so much
more money as to enable him to live better'than -any
other operative in the world: ,TbAt wee brought about