The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-31 00:00:00

GROUP FF.

The Select Committee on this group re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning, and proceeded with the evidence in favour of the
Z.:011VISUMG111 AI n 70101/.THE2,N

Mr. James Beard, a farmer and tile manufacturer, residing near
Narburgh, said he annually manufactured 700,000, and the fuel
used in the manufacture was brought at an enormous expense from
Little Dysart. He annually consumed 48W tons of coal,
which cost him 14s. per ton, while the cost of cartage from
ochgelly ranged from 9s. 6d. to 10s., and from Clackmannan
from si. to ss. 6d. per ton. Those coals would certainly come
upon the railway, in the event of its being made, for the line
would pa sin the immehite vicinity of his works. At present he
sent his tiles by water to Perth and Dundee. It was a dangerous
and expensive mode of conveyance, and he should certainly prefer
the railway, should it ever be constructed. Large quantities of
potatoes were brought from the interior of the country and shipped
at Perth. He knew of his own knowledge that at one pier alone,
of which lie was lessee, 2,400 tons were shipped annually, and he
had nu doubt, therefore, the railway would greatly facilitate the
tzansit of that article.

The witness was cross-examined by Mr. AYTON at some length,
but his evirence was in no point shaken.
r. Robert Philip, a merchant at Leith, gave corroborative tes-
timony. He said he was well acquainted with the route of the
proposed railwßy. At its northern terminus it had a communica-
tion with the Granton Railway, which ran to Edinburgh, where it
effected a junction with the Glasgow and North British lines.
He had, therefore, no doubt whatever that the line would prove
of considerable advantage to the country at large, and more espe-
cially to the various populous and important districts through
which it passed. _

Mr. Thomas Russell, an extensive iron founder at Kirkaldy,
said—The population of the neighbourhood ia which he resided
was 17,000, who would all be accommodated by the proposed rail-
way. Last year 34,575 passengers passed over Granton, in
going to and from Dundee, by steamers. In the sane period there
passed, in the same way, 5,675 tons of goods, 2,894 head of
Cattle, 6,470 sheep, and 070 degs.
Mr. Alexander Gibbs, an innkeeper at Stirling, and Mr. Robert
1-I,..milton, manager of the General Steam Navigation Company's
ve,suls at Edmburgh, gave corroborative testimony, and the Corn-
mace afterwards adjourned.

G The Committee reassembled this morning shortly after twelve
o'clock in the Burgess Court Room, Westminster Sessions House.
7.71.7 -OTC FIND itanumm NAVIGA-
Tl.Oll 737.2,11.:ATC.7.-1 RAILWAY.
There wag no opposition to this Bill, which was gone through
formally, and the Committee agreed to report it to the House.
nial.kaiLiaT3l2o7 .11. ND PrtEsTozz RAILWAY.
The Bill for altering the line of this railway was opposed by Mr.
Webster, on the part of Joseph Fielder!, Esq., of Blackburn, who
complained that hi; property would be very materially injured by
the proposed line, and without any necessity.
Several witnesses were called to prove that the proposed deviation
would he a great improvement on the original plan, getting rid of
an inconvenient curve, and facilitating more the asses to the
coal district. The c,st of the whole line would be 55,4(181., and
the cost of this deviation would be 3,0001.

The preamble of the Bill was agreed to, and the clauses were
gone through seriatim, when the Committee adjourned.

GROUP K.
LOX :DON AND NORWICH =RECT.
The Committee on this line met this morning at the usual hour.
Previous to the resumption of business, Lord SANOON stated
that he thought it might facilitate the conduct of • he case, to inform
the Counsel on each side, that in regard to the lines from Bury to
Bishop's Stortford, and from Burr to Chelmsford, the Committee en-
tertained a decided preference for the latter; and though that opi-
nion might be shaken by subsequent evidence, yet, on the prima
facie view, they could see no advantages, either in respect of traffic
or populaticn, on the country round Bishop'
hs Scot tford,
Branch. ich could
possibly compete with those offered by the Celmsford
Mr. Gifonv assured the Committee that he had evidence of a
VE it' spA - the es
; itharacter so conclusive, as would, he thought, remove impr
--Sian At present entertained, and establish a case of traffic on the
ishop Stortford line, as startling to the Committee as decisive of
the absolute necessity of its construction. He conjured them to e
opinion re-
Per' their
I till the evidence of most satisfactory witnesses
been
adduced, and proved the vast superierity of the line

<` : ~~'~'

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T

Lord SANDON explained that he merely threw cut the suggestion
to enable Counsel to curtail or shape their course differently.
The examination of witnesses was then continued.
Frederick Nunn, examined by Mr. LEE-1s a butcher mid
cattle-feeder at Bury ; there is a considerable business in the trans-
mission of dead meat to London, which would be materially in-
creased by the construction of a direct line to London The mar-
ket at Bury is, for the size of the town, one of the largest in
the kingdom. Has known nine hundred head of cattle, and between
ten thousan i and twelve thousand sheep sold at one time there.
Bishop Stortford is a very extensive malting district, and facilities
of accommodation are greatly needed between that town and the
metropolis. At present as much as 41. per ton is charged for the
carriage of oil-cake and other goods by the tedious route from
London.

By Mr. COBDEN—Large quantities of oil.cake are consumed at
Bury, which had been imported at Ipswich from Hamburgh.
Cross examined by Mr. RLWLINSoN—The chief market at Bury
is for lean beasts and lean sheep, the majority of which conies
fr..m Scotland and Lynn, which are fattened on the turnips so
abundant in those districts. The oil.cake is used for manure, and

tis now procured chiefly at the London markets. Is a small
subscriber of the Direct Norwich line, and consequently interested
in its success.

James Lee, examined by Mr. GIRDEN—Is a timber merchant, of
Bury. Considers that town labours under considerable disad-
vantages, from want of better accommodation, the water carriage
being very insufficient and objectionable. Yarmouth would be a
very favourable port from which to purchase Norway timber.
Cross.examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—Supposing a railway were
constructed I etween Bury and Ipswich, he would still prefer to
purchase his timber at I.ondon, through Lynn, inasmuch as the
prices are at present for Russian larch 111. per ton at Ipswich, and
91. I Os. at London for delivery, either at Lynn or Ipswich. Canadian
timber is imported, but not extensively, at Ipswich, and certainly
sot as largely as at Linden.
Cross.examined by Mr. JAMES—Knows the country about
Norfolk and Sussex, and contrasting the benefits that would
be conferred by the proposed Disc, Beccles, and Bury
and the Direct Norwich lines, gives his decided preference to the
latter, inasmuch as it will give direct accommodation to the largest
markets, instead of merely skirting the counties as the other pro.
ject would. Last year he sold timber to the amount of 5,0001.
or 6,0001. Knows Sudbury very well, but cannot say if there are
any timber merchants in that t wn ; at any rate no line would be
of any great importance to it, as it already possesses a very good
water navigation.

By Mr. COBDEN—The district about Bury is very extensive as a
timber country, and supplies the navy with its choice produce.
John W. andford, examined by Mr. HETHERINGTON—Is a mer-
chant and malster, of Thetford, dealing in coal, oilcakes and other
such commodities. About 8,000 tons of goods, including corn,
grocery, rags, &c. ; about 8,000 beasts, and 40,000 sheep and
lambs, obtain a sale annually at the town. The inhabitants of
Thetford are unanimously in favour of the Direct Norwich ,ine, and
have presented petitions in its favour very numerously and in-
fluentially signed.

Charles S. Gilman, examined by Mr. LEE—Is a solicitor of
Norwich, and has taken considerable interest in the success of the
Direct Norwich line. Considers it would confer great advantages
on this county. A memorial, signed by upwards of 6,000 inha-
bitants of Norwich, including the influential bankers and mer.
chants, was drawn up in favour of the line, and petitions, equally
as important, presented from every town in the vicinity of the !hie.
Cross-examined by Mr. CIIAMBERS—Is a considerable shareholder
in the Direct Norwich Company, and acts as agent at Norwich for
that line, but not in a professional character. Attended a meeting at
Norwich in October last, and spoke in favour of the line. The peti-
tion of which he had spoken was signed by Messrs. Gurney, the
largest bankers in the town, as well as by the merchants and de-
cayed manufacturers of the town.
G. T. Knott, examined by Mr. GIRDRN—Has been for the last
fourteen years superintendent of the works between Norwich and
the adjacent towns, and at present farms the majority of the tolls on
the local turnpikes. The communication between Ipswich and
Norwich was not sufficient to support even one coach ; 8,046
beasts and 46,505 sheep went through the Brandon.gate from Mu--
ham and these localities to Newmarket during the last year. On
th• Thetford road 3,000 beasts and 7,000 sheep passed the Thet.
ford gate, but there was a green way, by whicn the toll could
be evaded. On the Budsdale turnpike-road about 10,900 head
of cattle and 11,000 sheep payed toll last year. Never heard of a
coach from Stowmarket to Newmarket.
Cross-examined by Mr. WHATELEY, Q.C.—Knows coaches
called the Old Blue, the Criterion, the Union, and others, amount.
ing in all to six, exclusive of mails, running to Ipswich every day.
There is a considerable population about Diss and the districts in
that neighbourhood. About 11,000 or 12,000 beasts, and 14,000
sheep at present pass between Ipswich and Norwich. Remembers
when 15,000 cattle and 18,000 sheep, about ten years since,

paid toll on the same road. The reason •f the decline was the
want of direct railway communication.
Cross-examined by Mr. JAMES—Gave 7401. a year for the Sud-
bury tolls ; 6201. for the Sicklesby, and a total for four tunpikes
of 1"01.
The Speaker having been announced at prayers, the Committee
adjourned till Monday next.

GROUP B.
LavErtPooL AND BURY LINE..

The Committee consists of Sir C. Lemon (Chairman), Sir R.
Filmer, Mr. C. Hope, Mr. F. W. Knight, and Mr. Horsman.
Mr. WILKINS, on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, called
upon the chairman to procure the Speaker's warrants to compel
the attendance of two persons, named Moore and Hartley, who re.
fused to attend as witnesses.

Mr. John Roberts, shipping clerk to Messrs. I-leap ar d
S-ns, merchants, and wholesale grocers, Liverpool, was
the first witness examined. He stated that the dealings
of his employers were from 700,000/. to 800,00 e/.
a year. Witness had been in the business twenty years. Messrs.
Heap had a large connexion at Wigan, Bolton, Bury, and Rochdale.

They were in the habit of sending large quantities of dried fruit,
treacle, and other groceries to these places. During the past year
they s..nt to these places about 868 tons of groceries. Great
delay frequently occurred at the Liverpool depot of the Bolton
Railway. The Belton Railway was, with respect to these delays,

worse than any other. So much so that carters called for the
occasion would not convey the goods if they knew they
were going to the Bolton Railway depot, He thought
it would be most important to have an entrance by railway to
the north, as the trade in that quarter of the town was increas-
ing greatly last year.
Mr. Cartside, Foreign and English wool-broker, Liverpool-5.
The wool trade had increased very much during the last fifteen
years. Last year they had sold about 300,000/. worth —SO or 100
tons. The present railway did nut afford them sufficient accom-
modation for transporting their wool to Rochdale, and other places.
Since Christmas they had been much incommoded by the
delay of their goods at the depot of the 13olton
way station. The detention was so great, that carters did
not wish to go there, and sometimes their carts of wool lay at the
depot all night and became spoiled by rain. He thought the
Liverpool and Manchester line did not afford sufficient accommo-
dation to the Liverpool merchants, who sent their goods to York-
shire. A new line for that trade would be very desirable. Such a
hne would benefit Liverpool and the country through which it
passed very materially.
Mr. Peter Owen, clerk to Messrs. Chandler and Flem-
ing, timber brokers, Liverpool, stated that his employers
were the largest timber brokers in Liverpool.
They annually passed through their stores about
1,000,000 feet of timber, and 9-10ths of the whole mahogany of
Liverpool. They sent a great deal of mahogany to Leeds, Wigan,
Bolton, Bury, Rochdale, and Oldham. Since 1825 the timber
trade between Liverpool and the northern districts had increased
25 per cent. Liverpool was the best market for buying goods in
the kingdom. Large quantities of it were used in machinery.
Seven hundred tons of timber were sent per diem by hi 4 employers
to Rochdale, Bury, and those districts. His employers were often
obliged to wait for several weeks to have timber forwarded by the
present railway. The Manchester and Liverpool line often refused
to convey timber, arid would nut do so at all when they could get a
sufficiency of other goods. Most of the mahogany was sent to
Leeds by railway. If the proposed line were made it would confer
great advantages on the town of Liverpool.
Mr. Sergeant BELLASIS—AII the docks in Liverpool were nearer
to the south station than the north. Most of the timber was at
present sent by canal.

The CitatamaN said it was obvious and beyond dispute that the
trade of Liverpool had of late years greatly increased with the
northern districts ; therefore it was useless for the Learned Counsel
to call for the witnesses to this effect.

Mr. WiLaiNs said he would open a new branch of his case, and
called

Mr. Dickinson, a partner in the house of Mathew and Dicken.
son, Liverpool—They were engaged in the coal trade, both for
home consumption and export. Chiefly obtained his coal front
Pemberton and Brett. The coals were at present conveyed by the
Leeds and Liverpool canal, A railway would be a better mode of
conveyance. The re would be two great objects achieved by railway
conveyance. There would be lees breakage, end they
might keep smaller stocks on hand. Great breakage took
place by canal, and they were obliged to sell the slack at a very
low price. Coals in stocks lost very much in quantity. The pre-
sent mode of conveyance obliged them to keep very large stocks
on hand in order to supply contracts. Railways would alio sate
them wharfage, which was very expensive. The Manchester and
Liverpool line did not afford them sufficient accommodation for
the transportation of coal. Had often seen a string of coal.
waggons a mile in length at the railway terminus, in frosty
weather, waiting for delivery. Had often been obliged to sell
coals 2s. a ton cheaper than he bought them, to supply
contracts, in consequence of the present mode of conveyance.
The proposed line of railway passed through several rich coal-fields.
It would increase the coal trade to Liverpool to a very consider-
able extent. He thought 2s. a ton would be saved in carriage by
the new line, and that the export trade of Liverpool would be
tripled. The coals around Wigan were of the best description. if
coals were cheaper in Liverpool, ships would take large quantities
of them as ballast, and the export trade with the Continent would
be increased.

The CIIAIRNIAN--Hocv much per ton does it now cost for con-
veying the coals from Wigan ? Witness-ss. 7d. Ile went on to
say that he thought his house would sell three times as much coal
for export if the present line were carried out. The cost of ob-
taining coals by canal, according to the present mode, and in-
clusive of their cost at the colliery, was las. 6d. per ton ; by the
railway they could be sold in Liverpool for 10s. 9d. If the rail-
way were carried out, the exportation of coals to Dublin would be
increased. The balance in favour of the carriage of coals by railway
would be 3s. 31d, per ton on those for foreign exportation, and
2s. 6id. on those for home consumption. The witness then went
into calculations to prove the accuracy of his statement.
T. R. Forward, of the firm of Leach, Harrison, and Forward,
Liverpool. merchants and shipping agents, gave evidence in favour
of the proposed line. Those in his business in Liverpool were, he
stated, in favour of the Liverpool and Bury line, because it would
cheapen the freight of manufactured goods and foreign prints by,
in the first instance, cheapening the wool, and the effect of
such cheapness would be that the ships would take out
coals as ballast. The projected line went through
one of the finest Lancashire coalfields.—(This witness likewise
spoke of the great inconvenience arising from the detention and
delay of goods at the present railway termini at Liverpool. This
delay and detention was a great loss to him. The Liverpool and
Bury line would to a great extent remove the disadvantages of
which he had spoken, and the Yorkshire and Lancashire manufac-
tures would be separated from those of Manchester.
Mr. William Brown, a grocer at Wigan, was next called—Pur-
chased nearly all his groceries at Liverpool. His tonnage by Liver-
pool amounted to almost 100 tons, at 68. 3d. per ton, whether by
canal or railway. If the projected line were made he
would save Is. 9d. a ton, as 4s. 6d. would be the charge
by railway. They now got goods from Liverpool
by canal in one day, by railway in two. Dispatch was very
anTiculerrya,hbhleutt communication
aesn.
important to persons in his trade. Knew there was a con.
be
rey bveetrwy e
circuitous,el
anrg andVt
hi
trahane.,c
roads dt
wereaßfi traffic
Bolton,
betweenb ndd
w 1
would v
e
the towns at which the Liverpool and Bury line touched. On the
Manchester and Leeds line they had conveyed 30,000 Sunday_
school children at 6d. per head. The people of Wigan were anx-
ious to give these opportunities of recreation to the poor children,
but were always thwarted by the expense.
This witness was cross.examined at some length, but nothing
material was elicited, as upon re-examination he
aid that the
people of Bury were decidedly in favour of the Liverpool and
Bury
ans, a magistrate and engine.makelri,„livainngd
inlthieoWugihgatnii
Mr. line.
E v
gave testimony favourable to the proposed
would be highly advantageous to the town of Wi'gan.
would
save 280/. a year by the carriage of iron along the Liverpool and
Bury line. Owing to the defective state of communication between
Bolton And Wigan and Bury, the trade between those places was
much limited and restricted. The whole charge of carrying iron
rem Wigan to Liverpool, if the proposed railroad were made he
estimated at 4s. 6d. per ton. The road between Wigan and
Bolton was very bad.
orted a larger quantity of grain than any other merchant in
Mr. Caldwell, a corn merchant, in Wigan, stated that he im-
p
Sold 300 sacks per week; 2,000
was Irish produce.
Wigan. The bulk of the flour and grain consumedWigan