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London, England, 1844-03-30 00:00:00

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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

MOUSE OF LORDS, March 29.
?el Heil' Lordships sat to-day to hear appeals. The
Lord
1-their fea
BYRON V. COOPER.
Ple arSly guments
rgiships postponed in thtponed their ju is case were e
dgment. r,ncluded to-day,
mist' PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES.
Z.E QUEEN V. MILLIS. THE QUEEN iJ. CARROLL.
8 c 9 se stood in the paper for final judgment to-
at 'nalf-past four o'clock. It will be recollected
o'-ne time since their Lordships state d their opi-
ftro "8 on the matter seriatim; three of them being in
it tt ." of thevalidity of the marriages, and three against
I At the hour appointed the Lord Chancellor, Lord
L'Cr agham, Lord Cottenham, Lord Campbell, and Lord
14goys, were in attendance. Shortly before five o'clock
0 "uke of Wellington entered, and after some eon-
rabic consultation between the Lord Chancellor,
[Brougham, Lord Campbell, and Lord Cottnnham,
eotii )rd BROUGHAM moved that the judgment of the
't of Queen's Bench in Ireland, declaring the first
11141°1i cage illegal, should be reversed ; whereupon the
le divided, when theve appeared, for the reversal, 2,
Igta Ist it 2 ; the effectof which will be that the judg-
ti,ti
ueicnv will stand, by which it was declared that
ezi..first marriage was invalid.

e CORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
-9%T-,. Five o'Clock.
IRISH PRES'dYTERIAN MARRIAGES.
the ale LORD C11.A.3v,i-CELLOR said, as the opinion of
(I, :Rouse on the case of the Queen v. Millis and the
of !en v. Carroll liad been such as to affirm the opinion
r„ the Court helo-w, he should move for the re-appoint-
-2,i1- it of the CoTnraiLtee on the Irish Presbyterian Mar•
;e Law, with -n view to legislating upon it.
th:ord CAW:I-JELL fully agreed that legislation upon
of la Subject wr
,s indispensable, for, according to the forms
sifithe Rouse . the judgment of the Court below had been
judgment
he judges had been equally divided in their
dedlent, and when this equality existed, it was consi-
ias•,''as a decision in the negative • but the law re-
Pea' b. y such judgment in an unsettled state.
,31,:rct.0 OTTENHAM could not agree in the opinion
Kpr essed, because the judgment which had been
Wa -4, to all intents, a judgment of the House, and
Is"JUdg ment of course asserted and settled what the
06 He quite agreed in the propriety of having a
tainlitto -3e to consider an alteration of the law.
sadL! 3RD CHANCELLOR said the decision which
sin °e, .n come to was, in fact, an affirmance of the deci-
"ll of the Court below.
d 'BROTJGHAM considered it was necessary to
)4t: a Vominittee, with a view to legislative interference,
-.out 'delay.
11JESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.,
gf .ness, 'rgers from the Commons brought up the Guild-
-Itrr nch Railway Bili, the Norwich and Brandon
4vay Bill, and another private Bill.
CRIMINAL LAW.
s!....eetiotttr;lela paOIT,GHAM said, that at the time he held the
Commission was appointed to inquire into
state of the criminal law of this country. A report
eo been; Pt tblished by that Commission, which report
etinstitul;ed a digest of the whole criminal law of this
itiltitrY. It did not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but
pr01",3 a code of criminal law in England, excluding
to fei"-tire. A code of criminal procedure was intended
tob,,°l34ru. He had, therefore, drawn up a short Bill
1:744e1 upon the repot, and he now presented it to their
11,4&,hips, and prayed them to give it a first reading,
sh he hoped the Government would take the Bill into
'm consideration, and give it the support it deserved.
dord CAMPBELL said he felt some apprehension on
eunt of the somewhat irregular mode in which his
kl'lole and Learned Friend had introduced the Bill. He
k:tainly thought, when his Noble Friend rose, that he
ended to introduce the Bill on the part of the
iL )vernment Hr; (Lord Campbell) was extremely glad
ZAtt the Bill lifid been introduced ; and he would
s„l2, been ,lad to have heard his Noble
tile._ Learned Friend say he introduced it on
e Part of the Government, for he knew that the Bill
t- never b e carried out unless it was zealously sup-
dby thrJ Government. It would appear, however,
rit the Go vernment had not yet even seen the Bill.
th hoped, however, that they would take it up, and that
kis country would no longer be the only nation in
mope Nv, ; shout a criminal code.
Ide—',„,sru ),sROUGHAM could not allow his Noble and
eeXe'..t Friend to say that this was an irregular pro-
th-"'Jg. His Noble and Learned Friend forgot that
pro-
thee.. report of the Commissioners on this subject was a
Valle one, and had been published fifteen months, and
(I been in the possession of every Member of both
°lleses of Parliament.
Z'nrd CAMPBELL explained.
POOR-RATES (IRELAND.)
ti he Earl of CLARE presented a petition from
b,,lrterick complaining of the mode of assessment for the
h.n' in that district. The Noble Earl presented also a
retition from Limerick praying for a Bill to improve the
'tZverage and the arrangement of the streets in that city.
" Noble Earl presented also a petition for a tax upon
-vtent.

IRISH MAGISTRACY.
atf,The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to call the
lotion of their Lordships to a recent appointment to
4p, magistracy in Ireland, to which his cwa
„ir ntion was not called until this day. He
etlJeeted to the appointment of Mr. O'Brien as a
N,nroilary magistrate, because only a few years ago he
a violent Repealer. True, he might have altered
th'' opinions ; and if this was done in a way to prove
at it had been done in sincerity, he certainly did not
rethat office should be barred against a gentleman.
ention not to give any of the patronage of the Crown
4 the direction of those persons who were declared and
Repealers. And the fact was, that this gentle
'o's reason for abandoning repeal was such as to clis-
'4itttle him to any credit for his conduct; for, from his
vett*
1„1 tee vehemence in the cause—from the lengths to
.he
he went in support of it, the heads of the Repeal
tlty had refused any further co-operation with him.
a was the cause of his secession from repeal. He had
drat abused all those who were against repeal, and then
+ll
those who, like himself, had been in favour of it, but,
1140144 himself, had been more discreet and decorous in
etr support of if. He should leave it to the Govern-
‘ilent, now they were made acquainted with the character
11 conduct of this gentleman, to correct an appointment
I,,aleh they must feel was not a proper one. The return
‘rohad moved for lately did not include this objection-
Ce appointment, and he should therefore move
et the return be completed to this day, with
(PI date of the last appointment made by the
rernment, of a stipendiary magistrate.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said if the Noble
rd who had just sat down thought that this matter
old be allowed to rest in the manner which the tenor
ft▪ his speech indicated he was much mistaken. He (the
Ar,arCIIIIS of Clanricarde) intonded himself to submit,
er notice, a direct motion to their Lordships, because
he'
thought there was nothing of more importance than
have the administration of justice beyond suspicion in
.kie,:and• The passing over of so many gentlemen, who
h:4 been connected with this particular branch, and who
the highest characters, and selecting Mr. O'Brien,
itaid not but tend to bring into contempt the adminis-
.etio .• th n or justice. He stated those facts merely to show
je:t when Government professed ignorance of the sub-
t that it was only a reiteration of their old defence,
ntat they never read the newspapers. Now all the Irish
wsPapers teemed with this matter—but, strange to
4,tbe " Government paper" (if that word were allow-
-14,1) had not taken the slightest notice of this appoint-
03_,t• He wished to say nothing disrespectful of Mr.
ao,Zleti, but he trusted that the Government would find
4,41 other situation for bim besides one which would
,itku„ to injure the respect in which the administration of
ri,",ce should be held.
•iiCoe Duke of WELLINGTON thought that the &Ru-
t,: about reading the newspapers was unfounded and
• eless. He had never heard that Mr. O'Brien had
Cell named in any prominent manner before. It would
thiMach better, he thought, if notice had been given of
Ltootion by the Noble Lord opposite.
rd BROUGHAM thought the best mode of putting
repeal was by promoting those who were the most
aent in support of it. In the year 1834, a Right Hon.
0-vnf tleman, who was then a Repealer, and who was one
the
tellers on a motion for repeal, was, instead of
br,,ltg Persecuted for his opinions by the Government,
t„'-'_,Moted to the office of Vice-rresident of the Board of
tirade, and they had heard no word about repeal from
be since. When that appointment was made they
/t 1 no objection to it from anybody on account of the
ptlbtt lion. Gentleman's opinions. Now, no doubt the
iernment bad dealt in the same manner with Mr.
lip IV". He had been appointed, doubtless, after giving
Laci la Unalterable opinions, and he (Lord Brougham)
et,,,a,0 doubt that many others would give up their
strop unalterable opinions, if they had an equally
relit, reason for doing so. God knew that anything
• ter g to the dispensation of justice was a serious mat-
-144 and anything relating to the management of the
the e., of the realm was a serious matter ; but, still, if
th,._`•Tovernment thought that persons were qualified for
umces, they were right in appointing them.
tarr Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, if Noble
oPposite could show that Air. O'Brien was a fit
• 400 to be appointed, he should be contented to have
potion negatived.
tuacitta Marquis of NORMANBY thought that the best
tioa of putting down repeal was by means of promo-
all I though the Government entirely forgot it when they
oateireded local magistrates, on account of their repeal
• "s•----(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said that, when
of th Neil was appointed to the office of Vice-President
poitve Board of Trade, no one complained of the ap-
• ‘toent. Why, did the Noble Lord forget the out-
ja that were made respecting it, at what were called
tittnes;rvative gatherings, which took place about that
could --(Hear, hear.) He (the Marquis of Normanby)
the
zunot conceive that any opposition would be made to
or irr°tion, which he did not think was either unusual
tores.alar.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
mono u,WITARNCLIFFE did not so much object to the
In itself as to the irregular and uncourteous manner
,I,Ch it was brought forward.
kat. of RIPON did not complain of the Noble
the ;Ims making the motion, but he did complain of
eriesPe„e,ch, which was very violent.—(Hear, hear, and
not ,t No, no.) The gentleman who was speaking was
atwa.„.. . .
ryas'ear any Lao nest Judge of his own violenee.—(Hear,
a a laugh.) The speech of the Noble Marquis
bitter attack upon the Government and upon the
tasoblel,ord who was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It
441;1u tte impossible that a Government could vindicate
objectll:)°n such questions without notice. He did not
to
rah
tte_ e motion, but to the want of notice.
Itgre..ir a desultory conversation, the motion was
to..
The .„, STATE OF IRELAND.
41arquis of CLANRICARDE pursuant to
ruse,
T• tohpisresenta petitionrespecting the state of Ire-
itinajoritx petition was signed by many Peers, and by
of the representatives of Ireland in the other

House of Parliament. He should move that the peti-
tion should be read at length ; and he trusted that the
moderate and sensible prayer with which it included,
would receive the most serious attention of that House
and of the Government. None of the promised mea-
sures of the Government were yet before their Lord-
ships ; and, therefore, it would be fully to attempt to
form opinions upon what they would be ; but, he sin-
cerely trusted they would be characterigcd by a spirit of
conciliation that wou!d be acceptable not only to Ireland
but to the whole United Kingdom,
The petition was then read at length, and was ordered
to lie upon the table.
IRELAND—THE JURY SYSTEM.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE -aid, he rose ac-
cording to notice to move for the production of any in-
structions that might have been given to any of the
Crown solicitors in Ireland as to the mode of impanelling
juries in Ireland. He was satisfied, having received
yesterday a notification from the Neble Lord opposite
(Wharncliffe) that there would be no objection to the
production of these returns, that it would be unjustifi-
able in him to make more than a very few observations
to their Lordships in reference to this subject. He
should, therefore, merely say what he considered
requisite to justify him in occupying the
attention of their Lordships. He need not say in that
House that every thing connected with the administra-
tion of justice, but most of all with that great feature of
it which affected the constitution of juries, was one cal-
culated to excite the most anxious attention of the coun-
try. When a prisoner, or a culprit, heard the first
forms of the court by which he was to be tried—and
which were so important in their nature—when he was
asked, how he would be tried? and responded, by his
God and his country, he considered he had thrown his
liberty, perhaps his life, into the hands ofpersons with the
same feelings, sympathies, and habits as himself. Now,
what, for a long time, had been the practice in Ireland?
They had too often been in the habit of using the
powers and forms which were placed in the hands of the
Crown for a very different object, to the purpose of ex-
cluding a great majority of their countrymen
.from
taking their share in that branch of the administra-
tion of justice which it was their right to do.
The system adopted in these prosecutions had been de-
nounced by Chief Baron Joy, and some of the most
eminent men connected with the legal profession. From
equally high authority he could assert, that in all cases
when Roman Catholics had acted as jurors they had
discharged their duties with impartiality and fidelity.
Sir Michael O'Loghlin gave instructions that no dis-
tinction should be made in the appointment of juries ;
and he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) rejoiced that such
instructions had been issued, because he thought that
the powers of the Crown ought not to be exercised to
reject persons because of their religious opi-
nions. He was deeply impressed with the value
of trial by jury, and of its being essential to the fair ad-
ministration'of the law, and of supporting that confi-
dence between man and man which was necessary to a
good state of society. He would again say that he be-
lieved it was not the intention of the Government to
bring the law into contempt, but he thought it was quite
as well to give to them an opportunity of expressly dis
claiming any participation in a course which was likely
to produce such a result. In submitting this motion to
the House, he was not actuated by any feelings with
respect to a particular trial ; but in the hope that some
responsible member of the Government would give an as-
surance that no sanction would be given to such a course,
and that those who adopted it did so without their
consent. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving for
copies of instructions given to the Irish Law Officers of
the Crown relative to challenging juries.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE, who spoke in so low a tone
as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, read a circular
addressed by the Attorney-General for Ireland, which
was to the following effect:—" The Attorney-General
presents his compliments to the Crown Solicitor, and,
having read the instructions given by Mr. Brady, when
Attorney-General, with respect to setting aside jurors,
requests the Crown Solicitor to continue to act upon
those instructions." He (Lord Wharncliffe) thought
this was a sufficient proof that the Government had not
acted on any new principle with respect to striking off
jurors. With respect to the motion of the Noble Mar-
quis, there was no objection to produce the instructions,
or portions of them, relating to the particular subject to
which he had referred.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed himself
satisfied with the offer of the Noble Lord.

Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) had acted very fairly in the
manner in which he had brought forward his motion.
Lord CAMPBELL expressed a hope that the prin-
ciple which was applied to the striking off jurors in
Ireland, with respect to Crown cases, would also be ap-
plied to special jury cases.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Government officers
would always endeavour to do so.
The motion was then agreed to.
GWALIOR.

The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to ask his No-
ble Friend, the President of the Board of Control, when
it was likely any further papers relative to Gwalior
would be produced.

The Eaii of RIPON said he would endeavour to lay
the papers alluded to by the Noble Marquis on the table
of the House before Easter.

The Marquis of NORMANBY said he would abstain
from making any motion on the subject until the papers
were on the table.
INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT.

On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE the In-
ternational Copyright Bill was read a second time.
Several other Bills were advanced a stage. Their
Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 29.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock.

The Guilford Junction Railway Bill, and the Norwich
and Brandon Railway Bill, were read a third time and
passed.
Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Liverpool
against the Liverpool Docks Bill.
The Wells (Norfolk) Harbour and Quay Bill, and
the Wells (Norfolk) improvement Bill were read a se-
cond time.

ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAYS - GRAVESEND

RAILWAY.

Mr. SHAW rose to call the attention of the House to
a petition which he had presented a few nights ago from
certain parties who had projected a railway, to be con-
structed upon the atmospheric principle. He called the
attention of the House to this subject upon public
grounds, in order that the atmospheric principle might
be fairly applied to railways in this country. It had al-
ready been tried in Dublin on a short railroad, but the
engineers who had been sent over to observe the work-
ing of the principle, amongst whom was Mr. Brunel,
were of opinion that the Dublin and Dalkey
Railway was too short to enable them fully
to judge of the merits of the principle
and they therefore recommended that the principle
should be tried on some railway in this country, and
upon that recommendation a project had been started
for constructing a railway to Gravesend upon the at-
mospheric principle. The parties had presented a peti-
tion to the House, praying to be allowed to bring in a
Bill ; but their petition prayed for a Bill to construct a
common railway. They afterwards, however, presented
another petition, praying to be all Owed to con-
struct a railway on the new principle. This peti-
tion, however, was presented too late to be re-
ceived by the Standing Orders' Committee, and there-
fore the Company were prevented from bringing
in their Bill. Now, what he wished ,-as, that these par •
ties should be allowed to present a petition to the Stand-
ing Orders' Committee, to grant them permission to
bring in their Bill this session, as it was highly im-
portant to the public that the new principle should be
fully tested. He was anxious to bring the question be-
fore the House, because twelve months' delay might be
of serious consequence to the projectors of the Gravesend
Railway. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by mov-
ing that the petitioners for the Gravesend, Rochester,
and Chatham Railway Bill have leave to proceed with the
Bill, and that the Standing Orders be suspended for
that purpose.
Mr. STRUTT said, that as Chairman of the Standing
Orders' Committee, it might, perhaps, be expected that
he should give some explanation of the reasons why he
should oppose the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He would not throw any difficulties in the way of the
railway, but the non-compliance with the Standing
Orders, which the Right Honourable Gentleman said
were mere matters of form, were, in his opinion,
very important. In few cases were they so
important—and he believed they were over twenty in
number. There were two sections on the line, one for
the atmospheric system, the other for the ordinary mode,
and one or either of these plans must be adopted. But
though the Bill enabled them to adopt either, they gave
no notice at all with regard to one. It was necessary
that parties whose property was to be cut through should
get notice, in order that they might be able to
defend their interest. The Committee were of
opinion that the question was of that kind
in which they should follow the rules upon
which they ordinarily decided. There were two
schemes before them, and they would have neglected the
duty which they owed to the House if they had showed
any favour to one part of the scheme in preference to the
other. They were decidedly of opinion that this was a
case in which it would be impossible for them
to allow the proceedings to go on. The House
would also bear in mind that the Gravesend line was
a competing one, and that there was another competing
line before them at the same time. They would, there-
fore, be guilty of great negligence if they dealt with ono
line in a manner different from that in which they dealt
with the other.(Hear, hear.) The question, therefore,
was not merely whether they would allow one particular
scheme to be carried out in opposition to the Standing
Orders, but whether they should allow to one com-
peting line what they did not allow to another.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it was a most im-
portant invention—indeed it was of national importance,
and that it was necessary that it should be tried during
the present year, as there was no other mode of making
the trial except through this Bill. Those were imaterial
allegations, and he thought they should receive some
better proof of them than that of their being merely
alleged in a petition. The Right Hon. Gentleman
wished the subject referred tolhe Standing Orders' Com-
mittee. In his (Mr. Strutt's) opinion that was not the
tribunal before which such a question could or ought to
be received. He would, therefore, suggest to him that it
ought not to be referred to the Standing Orders' Committee.
If the House chose to appoint a Select Committee to in-
quire into the merits of thi atmospheric railway, and
if the Committee were of opinion that the national ad-
vantages to be derived from it were so important, and
that the urgency of the case was so great ,th at the in-
terests of the competing rail way
Committee
it would
e te
s ought to be disregarded,
it would not be for him to oppose it ;but
all h
suggest, then, was, that the Standing Orders'
could not act upon principles different from that on
which they usually acted. If it were referred back to
decision from that to which they had already come. He
them, he did not see how they could come to a different