The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-08 00:00:00

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*t..ear,the persons to whom was assigned the duty‘,,,t*
tt.e.,...Llnng the highest branches of their noble profes.e..„.
e.,r c,,eived that a great evil eoultl•ftalel on the counte y
metropolis awl
thYete try `gradation of the surgeons in I
';',pnttransformation of the College
hof,,aSdt:rgieeown(smilndtt.e)ot;iii.i
~_ necaries' Hall. On the other - 1
.7's that although he did not admit all the objee-
tee.. .
f.". Taken by the general practitioners to
inbe
somew,eli
stied-althoughrei he thought that they were
~.e..
ce- lei ets ex a g gta te d
be taken. Ihe
reic'es which they desired ought to
; yet. lie did think that certain 1-,.
4"'„e - Practitioner; stated that in order
htvosice.xiaaeltsthatai(ri
sa station and their own power, the p . at:e,,eons had endeavoured to degrade the general
he had of the practitioners. On tihte
‘wvaVeex,
ptleiteirieeifittrteo,
lacer come to the conclusion that..
He should pro-
thebe°pra the general practitioners.
e that in.futureall students that should hereafter eater
PlacePrefeasion should undergo an examination a.t oneuc
0,,i
present".Y. Te secure that object he pronosed,m la
Bill t t bl' I► a Coik'e of Physicians, p •
teit°ilely of Surgeons, andisl a* College ofGeneral rip...-
his exemina-
tien4f Ts. No studeut should pass through
age 7 a general practitioner until lie lead ant,
made • twenty two The )tawinesdtootldit2
of I,lt tiventy-one. Ile then Bprilnlp% licesd that the Collegeh
,e s oil ,
are InTkelanB and the College if•
'S"brgea'ridi he pro-
tvo._; joint board of examiners.
tisetieexrgiuersahso,tiall consistsix
xof
teh)fescix, memberrsniosf.tole College ()f
In
College of Phsicians. I
con-
have (1_ with the Council of Health this board should
ti.ithe examination of students, He teeh•_
also
appointa" the College of General Practitioners shouldthe
eandi-
tie another board to examine exclusively gar''7
.aish.ing.t? act as general practitioners. W With re
he roposed that the
age em" Physicians and surgeone, P
twenty-six
Yea° el the student to be examined should be .
3, ii.
Apoth "a had now come to this decision withn the
the„eCaries' Company. In the roost handsome.
with
whrehuail agreed to surrender all the power
e:ee- telleY were invested under their Act.
—tliliee
Veu hat there should be three Coll,rsgeers
tad tgiale of
ilPhysician s, thep C,o.tlilteigue
r.erosf;
andb ghtemin;l,.
teaded h ° ege of General ra .
berm p Y the new Bill to transfer to the College of Ge-
now en-
joyed ractitioners all the privileges which were _ _
,:o
itiee3,,hrt? the Apothecal ies: Compan; and he should I ,
aPprent:'etne.same time, with the system. of five year,
'ner ee 1 .ship, which was so very obnoxio.us. onhe
itllaiedfao(r)-t
etetehfapen, when he addressed the House, ,d
discretion
eiye for-
ached much importance to the power an
cella to the Apothecaries' Company. ;.but he had now
ed it bet,r"er ta remove those pleges
give
the new
Piece °,l General Practitioners, and to i them a
song the Council of Ht,alth. With respect to the pre(r):
sea
ue were to sit on that Council, it had been pt_le
leteriat° Placelac the power of nominating them into
ti,e. ceao teof Crown ; but he was nut the perst;hee
Bill,
ptiuiraie_e,rd:n:teuolealeltciooalniPeo°tlPitlhsveiitsaie°gno ffi;
electedcbetr's i uhtteihi
the
an(eLwbcyo n
thieth It created. Generals tiii. t;
ai cent
it
a_s
ge, he would propose to give them -
Posedat the Board of Health ; and this board he proi. detea ,to make the examining board for all the cand_e
Pre, for
the different branches of the profession. H
their)sed that
the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor of
the I.,niversities of London should each have a plaetai.n.
yertizuncl of Health. It was necessary that thethiTeral_
lefties es (3f Oxford and Canibrige, which were.
ex
'aiptienerititehl to confer degrees, should enjoy an ex-
eertaio fro the operation of this Bill to 2:
of extent. He proposed that the power
BhoArtnt,i,"g degrees, hich they now enjoi Peim ,„,,"pt be continued tow them • but there was another
No winch
A , had to be considered. It was the privilege.
04 3;,e,' uY the College of Physicians of preventing any
with`,"'etislg in the metropolis, or seven miles from it,
freEallthtir consent. He thought this was a hardshiptie relieyjneh graduates of the two universities ought 0t,f..1.
%tire,
au,
and he should propose, therefore, by
.this m role, a„Plellapt their graduates from the operation thisof
tition"' to give to every une who had passed an e..
_le
Illy Part 44C1 pessestsed a diploma, the right to practicehi
the,,a;eeef the 'United Kingdom. After examination
to
form ors, of whom deputies from the universities _
werey
te, tIl .ht", they intended to hove only one portal
' Roe terr°Fession, and whether a student wished
or a - the practice of a physician, a surgeon,tle
eBeinieeneral practitioner, he must pass 1
retiiitigehet,,e4,rti.ion of this Council of Health. Some difficulty
se from the import of the term, in clause 23,
this
was pors
rn,,, ef medicine." Ile would explain that
,ber fa01„--11, a terra of noviciate. He saw the Hon. -Mem-
el win,Ze,_',llhurgh cheering on his notice la the means
ractiee-"His general practitioner was to be introduced to
iteent;.,•
Re should say, in reply to that cheer, that
it e,0,11,44 of the Scottish Universities had claims which..
of he unjust to overlook. He thought that licet.nie
stiree advents the Scottish Universities were entitled tol
„,_adventges, and he should extend to them the same
.Kiegd Os as those enjoyed by students in the Unitedin SNOT. Ravin passed- double examination tto tu, all that wgouldbe qa ired of them here wouldl beh
mitiveysen•
,‘ their certificates;re uto the Council of
licences
to would have the general power of gra,n..tingelm-c. He
tor :reties in all parts of the United hingd
ber for
needaim the observation of the Hen'
hiVi' edmed some
difkoh.(4)lr. Warburton) that he appree- n
of those
*llO eah,Wa in ascertaining the qualifications
eunekie-e from distant parts of the country,. but he
ew, ved that there would be no difficulty in sending.
orde_a.ssessDrs to the different schools and colleges in
quirLte ascertain the mode of examination, and the ac-
ori-7nts of the students. Since the 23d clause was
Kl ally framed, his views had been altered, but he
sew no
to
~
es reason to restrict the practice of the profession
1!: e who had obtained the licence or the
tdheestrcooylletgiheatedixinthetcirointieast
pinrestdpoons.sessibLe
tZpoesedofto
Y the College of hysicians, of
tald ultra urbein, and to give to ev
Praetisin in all erptr, apeetrissionag
tzhnearraigrhcrt
oet,.
14,0___es . parts of the United Kingdom. Ile
str'.ci to lay upon the table of the House, immetli-
ehjaper the recess, or perhaps before the recess, the
rt._ of the College of Physicians, the College of
/penes, a_nd of the several colleges in Scotland and
time nu entitled to grant degrees, and to show at the same
1.4 e the it.,,,
''o
the
different powers granted under the new charter.
L;
e,
cove
prrnoee prospective advantages these charters would fully
etr_eelfreeta.dreitted there was a difficulty in its
Sonic persons in the profession pes-
;Zielupeeteuliar rights of practising in certain places. I'e
thet;%., Preserve that right intact, but he would give.
exeinai" advantage, by allowing them to register their
far a.
.'r,e rights during their own lives, and thus bind, as
pre the circumstances of the case would allow, the
Pablie aticie ef private benefit with the promotion of the
aont
tadvantage This was especially the case with re-
tLesntetrttle privilege of practising within seven miles of
141e,°Pted tePeti'. Rut he hoped by the plan which he
e'eatle give the advantage of practising, without too
'Siat-' Interfering with the rights at
.present
r N. There4heeL was, perhaps, a little ambiguity a ith
Prektit to the assumpti of titles.He proposed, by the
eti4tli:s inoteeht
ttebf, Parlitamelint, to eder the simulation of
tki, ted rest, t,g as a misdemeanour. Some doubt had
le,"1 tie ~'"4'ng tee title of Doctor, which had been
derived tolintal?,any of. the general. practitioners. Ile
thatd it fr oi the right to this title to those who had
dlo hilli the College of Physicians. He
.thoughtf
4.. re,
411(1
night lie on the table till the middle of
;itiviirtly aftearlee hoped to have it in
44'4 reached'
.I•ecess, and after all
obtain, he
°aid him which he could
kJ deem . athepeinfercotrmsatitpin
„,g a„, In it his duty to advise her Majesty
t'llr,-,i''': new charters, both to the College
haie4l-..eans and Collegetheof Surgeons. By the
P°tdie. of June th whole would be before the
tit; -sten, h_,,had. interviews. with rt()rta e had e
ea.L
• h the heads of the
thus,oe° and physicians, surgeons, and general prac-
vou4e.
r„ss.ion
Ire the
4 Prore -he Was happy to say that the wholebody
approved of the measure lie 0
r,,,,ns
f.gere ever': course, in so great a number of pe •
..,
vlsioit e naany dissentients, but the bulk of the pro
la renlPNved of the measure
o..ir ' aitt°,tir• GISBORNE,*
of of AMIP-use stated that he proposed that the
in 44 brenralth should consist of forty-eight members
erg' read thats of the profession, of fifteen years e fi!
.k., en,
year the-
. y should be elected by a constituency
teter • - "(Incline. subject to the approval of the
ler /°r State. e"
eply to Cl
o. T
that ,IOEQ • WOOD,
0 GRA. NI stated that he proposed.
ttlee's-ev!
11Qvice
siililAddeb' ereeexaoTai
and tilillikatance, for the 1 practitioner,
ngeedeberyasthe Board, in
!11:Peittat4eY might proceed to the degree of surgeon or
tee , and . sit eea of 0 t.that in the case of graduates from
eaa tteee liord and Cambridge, the examiners should
In re s'ssers at the Board of the Council of health.
ei,..ir I.l6.uta.e_aptain RODS,
beLlvaltie 5;"...4.et.!•AM stated that of course the Council
usubjeet tuouln be governed by bye-laws, which would
St-"r• IlAvgtLe approval of the Secretarof Stawthe.y
the
fete tart'
oi.-, said that he saw no reason.
loges tes between ate should despair of reconciling the di if-
e bi, of Surge,the general practitioners and the Col-
VeN very He feared that this measure would
. th it, f. uistasteful to the whole of the profession,
(Sell I in thus and the country. There
ossible to
de
the e 26th clause, and it was imp_
__:_
~
-14° 44ellci°11
was a great
euar, hear) 26th with the 22d and 23d.
Pa has , T,
ea ' ebtrii The great object of the profession
sh Partieni. , n an equality of qualification. What
mopthottlel in *NT wanted was, that the teachers of pupilse
.etight that "se
be examiners for degrees, and he
4ht p the Board of Health should institute
14114,1 examination which would make them
int . with the several schools, and the numbers
ade entien,
of
th.Pted for ~. the pupil?. Some plan might. be
s
`t to Which°u'llang the probability of such an evil a
bir, he had alluded.
'Hies
p..(xXLEy said that he fully agreed with his
tie Nod ,
1,,,,N1ittt,.„,, tne Member for Lambeth that the alters-
a._yieeanuiced bounds measure in the old law would
~ZLlctfkti'o2l the cy with the greatest possible this
hobot eha.". He (Nlr. Walley) was greatly dissatisfied
1!ltd hiloges Which the Right Hon. Baronet proposed.
throe
std that those changes would have remove
ronti;‘!nt which at present prevailed so generally
'ant ut the r f •
qi,t, to tree i o ession. The Right Hon. Baronet
st:er the powers given by the Act of
4rarottle the Third to the new corporation. No
40t be was to
•
e• en examined permitted to practice who had
I;,juir ,i. r,so before the new corporation.
"ir '4"AnAkI explained. The Hon. Member for
11 had till
wA , sunderstood him,
4:lkible n'.n-LRY—Then, if that were the case, of what
.11,,,.,:e‘ was the new corporation? Did the Right
teuer which mean this Bill as alleviating the evils
MO "I°l 40 (In .L 0 geneFal practitioners laboured? He (.Mr.
tight it rather degraded them. The Right
4401. -aronet
of ion Wel. virtually affirmed that the general pradc-
tiv:kiitiati„! utterly unworthy of sitting at the boar
_,s
(kreae,,aluu•atipsfaidetihe think that this measure wolliel
obesity) was Sul?: thoattliitoswe 0 practitioners?not.
The fact
eti torolls authorities in the Council of Surgeons
kotesttn_thitt 10,000
tiSatt tourattZurfhfiicietfit influence_ with thef Right
mmeonn:hmeecraliszresoof others.l't lion.He
the medical
vu, Iterabere of the College of Surgeons, were

obliged to eulenit to great indignities, and this Bill of
the Right. Hen, Baronet's was but a continuation of the
system. It seea:ed a point with the Right Hen. Baronet
to gratify those who bad reteined the authority for a
long period, and who, according to general opinion, had
abused that authority. He repeated, it seemed to him
that the Right lion Ibronet wished to prolong that
authority in their hands, in spite of the many petitions
which had het n presented years before praying for a refrat
in the medical efficers. In the year 1826 large medical
meetings were held in London, and resolutions were passed
condemnatory of the council of the College of Sur-
geons. From that time medical associations had been
in existence, and from time to time the question had
been discussed ; but to the amazement of the members
of the College of Surgeons, they found that in 1843 a
new charter was granted to the council, containing pro-
visions of a most odious and obnoxious nature. The
conduct of the members of this council was open to re
proach, and they were rewarded. How ? By the
gift of a new charter—he would venture to say clan-
destinely obtained—a charter that might please the
clique that formed the Council, but was received with
the utmost disph asure by the 13,000 members of the
college. On that very day he had had a communication
from Shropshire, containing a memorial which had been
addressed to the Council, after having received the sanc-
tion of the majority of practitioners in all the counties of
England. A meeting was held in that county on the 3d
of April, 1845, and a resolution inured by Mr. Brooks,
and seconded by Mr. Cartwright, was to the effect that
the meeting felt themselves aggrieved by the ex-
clusive character of the charter granted to the
College of Surgeons, as they thought themselves justly
entitled to a full participation in all the privileges which
that charter denied them. But there were thirteen
thousand members allowed to complain fruitlessly.
Did the Right lion. Baronet believe that the surgeons of
this country would remain passive under this injury. Ile
(Mr. Wakley) was much deceived if the surgeons of the
country would not exhibit their feelings on this subject.
If the Right Hon. Baronet would refer to the evidence
taken before a Committee in 1834, he would find that
such men as Sir Astley Cooper, Sir Benjamin Brodie,
and Mr. Lawrence, ail agreed that surgeons and general
medical practitioners should be examined before a board
of competent individuals. He was not aware that the
medical practitioners of England had forfeited the good
character which they had formerly maintained. Yet,
why were they not allowed to participate in the privi-
leges of their own college? He allowed them to exer-
cise the elective franchise in the new corporation, then
why not in the College of Surgeons? But the council
themselves were not satisfied with the charter for last
year they petitioned to be heard at the bar of the
House against it. The measure went upon the principle
that the professional talent in the country was not equal
to that in town. He (Mr. Wakley) had no doubt that in
the country there were men equal in talent to Sir Ben-
jamin Brodie, but who had not had opportunities of dis-
playing it. The practitioner in the country was obliged
to trust to his own resources, for, in any case of diffi-
culty. he could not as in town send for Sir Benjamin
Brodie, or some gentleman equally celebrated, to take
the responsibility of the case off his shoulders. The
efforts of the country practitioners had never been
surpassed, considering their opportunities, by any of the
achievements of the profession m the metropolis. Those
men were not merely competent surgeons, but they were
physicians. They were quite equal in point of talent
and knowledge to those who practised in London.—
(Hear, hear.) According to the statement of the Right
Hon. Baronet. himself, he was going to create a new
Apothecaries'-hall.—( Hear.) Ile believed that if the
Right Hon. Gentleman would give the franchise to the
general body, all the wrong that existed would
be rectified. It was most unja:.t to disfranchise
12,000 members of the College of Surgeons for the mis-
conduct of a self elected council of twenty-six persons.
If the members of the College were restored to their
just rights, there would be no occasion for the institution
of another body.— (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Would
the Right lion. Gentleman grant an impdry into the
present condition of the College of Surgeons? He did
not think that the council, after their recent letter, de-
served so much patronage as the Right Hon. Gentleman
lavished upon them.—(Hear, hear.) Would the Right
Hon. Baronet lay the letter upon the table?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the letter had been al-
ready printed.
Mr. WAKLEY had not seen it amongst the papers of
the House. There was a grave misstatement in the
very preamble of the Bill, which stated that the Bill was
introduced in consequence of a memorial from the Col-
lege of Surgeons ; whereas, in point of fact, the College
did not memorialise at all.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The memorial had the seal of
the corporation.
Mr. WAKLEY—But the memorial was written by
the Council alone, which did not, in any respect, repre-
sent the profession.
Mr. WARBURTON was happy to find so much
unanimity in the House on the subject of medical re-
form. He understood the object of the Bill to be to
create a standard of uniformity in medical education.—
(Hear, hear.) He had read that morning a statement
from the professors of King's College and University
College on this subject, and he agreed with them
that residence ought to be made a condition
in qualifying for a degree. But in London the oppor-
tunities were so great for pursuing medical studies, that
the enforcement of residence need not extend over so
long a period as in Edinburgh.
An Hoer. MEMBEit here rose and moved that the
House be counted. _ •

The galleries were accordingly cleared of strangers,
but there being above 40 Members present, the debate
was continued.
On our return to the gallery,
Mr. W ARBURTON was remarking that the provi-
sions in clause 33, in his opinion, took away an efficient
security which existed at present, for graduates under-
going a proper examination at Edinburgh ; and he was,
therefore, bound to object to it. The Bill appeared to him
to provide that graduates and licentiates qualifying at
Edinburgh should be entitled to the same privileges and
rights possessed by those who qualified in England. If
this were so, and he believed the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite admitted it was so, he thought the licentiates
and graduates qualifying in England, or who had reached
the requisite standard in England, should reciprocally be
allowed to hold and to enjoy situations of patronage and
privilege in Scotland and Ireland. lie thought there
was a bad system prevailing at present, and as the Bill
was calculated to improve it, he hoped the Right lion.
Baronet would be enabled to carry it to-night.
Mr. ACKLAND thought the lion. Member for Fins-
bury had just delivered a speech, which he had carefully
prepared fur the previous evening, but still it appeared
to him not likely to produce the beneficial effect
which the lion. Member anticipated. The Hon. Mem-
ber said the Bill drew a distinction between the arts of
medicine and surgery, but he (Mr. Ackland) was not
prepared to admit the Hon. Gentleman's proposition.
Both acts were of equal importance to the country, and
the Bill in his opinion was brought forward solely with a
view of placing them upon a more settled and more
firma footing. lie believed there was much more confi-
dence placed in the College of Surgeons than would be
inferred from the speech of the Honourable Member fur
Finsbury; he made this statement from considerable
knowledge on the subject. The Honourable Member
had not told them what was the course that ought to be
pursued, nor did he believe he could.
Mr. 11. BERKELEY said the reason he had moved
that the House should be counted, was in order
to show the disgust he felt at the course pursued by
the Government in stopping last night the motion of
the lion. Member for Finsbury, by making no House.
—(Elear, hear.) He contended that that motion ought
to have been made and disposed of before the measure
now before the House was brought under discussion.
The Hon. Member for Finsbury had intended to bring
before the House the conduct of the Council of the Col-
lege of Surgeons, which had had disgusted every one.
They had selected men without talenC.llnstances had
come before him that were perfectly disgraceful.
He could point out many instances, where the omission
of persons of distinction from being selected fellows
must bring upon those persons a stigma and a slur.,
They all knew Air. Dermot, many of whose pupils had
risen to the greatest height in the profession. This gen-
tleman was omitted, and the world would generally con-
sider that to be a slur. When Gentlemen said that it
was not a slur, he really did not understand what they
meant. He would call upon the lion. Member for Mid-
dlesex, and also the Member for Finsbury, to corrobo-
rate the fact, that London gentlemen had performed
as many brilliant operations as their Brodies. This gen-
tleman was Mr. Frogly, who was as well known to the
physicians of London to be as distinguished a physician,
as any physician could be. He knew it could not be a
slur upon such men as Mr. Dermot or Mr. Frogly, but
he could not defend the omission, when he found men,
not possessing half their knowledge, raised to the dis-
tinction of fellows.
Colonel T. WOOD thought that the speeches that
were made were sufficient to satisfy them that they were
bound to endeavour, as far as possible, to open the pro-
fession widely to merit, and to avoid giving such an ab-
surd incorporation. Were they to have power to grant
degrees or to have second examinations ? The only
effect of a separate incorporation would be to create a
party in the profession, instead of uniting the general
body. If they had a separate incorporation a portion of
the profession would look with dislike upon the system,
and if they did not acquire the same power, they would
endeavour to obtain the power of giving degrees. This
exclusive mode would give great offence. While Mr.
Frogly was omitted, the men of less knowledge in
their profession were admitted. It could not
be that such men would suffer that injustice.
There was superiority given according to the date of the
entrance of their diploma or fellowship, which practice
would be very injurious to the medical officers of the
naval or military department. They were necessarily
absent for many years, and anything that would affect
these men would be deeply felt for there was no class of
m
men that conferred greater benefits on science than rh-
tary medical men. He had two instances where,S in
the present arrangement, two surgeons who were edu-
cated at Westminster School, had practised in the first
hospitals in London, and had distinguished themselves
at Hyderabad, would, after they had returned find them-
selves excluded from fellowships, and young men, who
were infants when they were in practice, admitted and
placed above them. General discontent would arise from
the unnecessary exclusion of such men. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman, however, refused all inquiry, He
(Colonel Wood) presented a petition from 1)r. Guthrie,
who thought that an inquiry ought to take place ;
and if it were instituted, the House could
put the College in a position which would be
satisfactory to the whole profession. He beheld witq
dismay the proposition of the Government. lie thought
it would create a division in the profession, which
would be exceedingly injurious in a scientific point of
view.
After a few words from Captain ROUS, which were
quite inaudible, from the lowness of his tone of voice,
The House went into Committee on the Bill.
Sir J. GRAHAM, who WIN yery indistinctly heard

in the gallery, was understocd to say that the Hon
and Gallant Member who hal just sat down
had made charges against I ien the most extraordinary
he had ever heard. No doubt he was responsible
for this Bill, and that responsibility lie was ready to un-
dertake.—(Hear, hear). He had heard a great deal
upon this subject, in reference to army surgeons; and he
had listened with attention to much that had fallen from
his Gallant Friend behind him on the subject, when he
introduced it. Ile was ready to admit that there was
much to be complained of in the old supplemental
charter, by which, amongst other provisions, the surgeons
were self-elected, and sworn to abide by certain laws;
the new Act proposed to remedy that evil,
and several others, which the House and the public
could easily judge of when the Bill came before the House.
London as a echool of medicine and surgery possessed
great and pre-eminent advantages from its locality. He
was aware that other localities which did not possess
the same advantages were naturally disposed to attract
students from London, by presenting advantages of an-
other description. In order to prevent the effects of such
attractions, he had introduced a safeguard ; for in-
stance, he had increased the terms of residence at Edin-
burgh from one year to two, so that students might not
be attracted from London to Edinburgh. He had be-
stowed more time and attention on this subject than al-
most on any other. He had endeavoured honestly to
make the measure useful and acceptable to the commu-
nity, and notwithstanding the predictions of the
Honourable Member for Finsbury, he was con-
fident that it would receive the support of the
general practitioners. He thought the Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Finsbury must have last
night, at the meeting in Hanover-square, seen that the
general practitioners were not in favour of his views ; if
he (Sir J. Graham) mistook lion only ten or twelve indi-
viduals at the meeting were in favour of the views of the
Hon. Member.
Mr. WAKLEY—The Right llon. Gentleman is quite
misinformed.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM went on to say that he nego-
tiated with the gentlemen who represented the general
practitioners, and he knew the Colleges of Physicians
and Surgeons approved of it ; thus, having succeeded in
obtaining the approbation of the three great bodies, he
thought there would be little difficulty in rentlering the
measure generally acceptable.
Mr. WAKLEY observed that he had a notice on the
paper for Thursday week, and would reserve his prin-
cipal observations for that occasion. Last night lie
attended a meeting of general practitioners, to which
the Right lion. Baronet alluded, and his opinion was
that if the question were put, two-thirds of those present
would be in favour of the general enfranchisement of the
College of Surgeons. Ile declared that there had not
been anything like violence exhibited at that meeting,
but only such dissension as difference of opinion usually
engendered. He had been informed by those gentlemen
connected with the Apothecaries'-hall who were present
that from the commencement they had looked to a sepa-
rate incorporation, and every step they had taken in re-
ference to this measure was guided by that object: This
certainly surprised him, it being the first time
he had been made aware of such an intention.
General practitioners were engaged in Poor-law Unions,
and were allowed to practise generally in society. If
they were qualified to manage their own affairs, and
were considered worthy of a licence, why not allow
them to manage a a college of their own ? The age of
twenty-two was considered sufficient to qnalify a general
practitioner, who was allowed to act as a physician, as
a surgeon, or a surgeon-accoucheur, while the rank of
surgeon or physician was not to be conceded to any
one under twenty-six years of age. Such distinction
was perfectly unreasonable and absurd.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM defended the distinction, and
considered the terms which the Hon. Member (Mr.
Wakley) had applied to it quite uncalled for. The age
of twenty-two was fixed as that at which the student
should receive his first examination, and be permitted to
practise generally; after which he would he required to
study four years longer, and be subjected to a second
strict examination before being admitted into any one of
the two grades of physician or surgeon. This he con-
sidered nothing but a fair regulation.
Mr. WARBURTON said, that though there was
every care taken by the provisions of this Bill to ensure
the proper examination of the students previous to their
entering upon practice, yet he could not think that a
mere examination was any sufficient test of qualifica-
tion. There ought, in his opinion, to be some power of
inquiring into the previous education of the pupils and
the course that was prescribed to them in their own
schools and colleges. Neither was he altogether satis-
fied with the constitution of the Board of Health. In
his opinion it would have been better to have left its no-
mination, as was originally proposed, in the hands us
the Crown for the Governnient, because then an efficient
controul might be exercised ever the Members.
Mr. HAWES (lid not anticipate that any special re-
ference would be made to him, or he would have come
down with documentary evidence to show that the
bulk of the profession were favourable to the
principle of the measure before the House.—
( Hear, hear.) The Committee of 72, of which his Hon.
Friend the Member for Finsbury had spoken so slight-
ingly, represented a body of between 3,000 and
4,000 of the profession, and he thought they represented
a considerable portion of the whole. Of these he had
nearly all the assents in writing to the chief principles of
the Bill. With respect to the appointment of the
Board of Health, he agreed with his Honourable
Friend the Member for Kendal, that it would have
been better to have left the nomination with the
Crown. There was one other point which should be
noticed, and he thought that there should be some check
on the education of the medical students in the Colleges,
both of Physicians and Surgeons, in Edinburgh. With
regard to the opposition of the profession, he had, with
his Hon. Friend, attended a meeting last night, where from
250 to 300 persons were present, and on a division upon
a matter which was supported by his Hon. Friend, there
were only twelve or thirteen persons who were opposed
to the Bill before the House.
Mr. MACAULAY, agreeing with the general cha-
racter of the Bill, cordially expressed his approbation of
the measure and his perfect satisfaction of the principle
on which it was based. There were one or two matters
of detail which he would oppose when the proper period
arrived for their consideration. One thing ho would
certainly (if not forestalled by the Honourable Member
for Finsbury, or some other Honourable Member) divide
the House upon, namely, that the appointment of the
Court of Examiners should rest with the Crown.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM coincided with the opinion
expressed by the Right Honourable Member for Edin-
burgh, that the power of appointing the examiners should
rest with the Crown, but there were so many conflicting
interests to soothe, and so many rival interests to con-
sider, that it made the selection a difficult one.
Mr. WAKLEY agreed with the opinion expressed by
the Hon. Members for Kendal and Edinburgh, that the
nomination of this Court should rest with the Crown.
He did not see the necessity for a Council at all. He
should prefer that the whole of the power and responsi-
bility were concentrated in ono body appointed by the
Crown.
The Bill was then read a second time, passed through
Committee, and was reported.
COLLEGES OF SURGEONS AND PHYSICIANS.
This Bill passed through Committee, pro for►na, and
the report was ordered to be brought up after the
holidays.
The Courts of Common Law (Scotland) Process Bill
wes read a second time.
The Court of Sessions (Scotland) Bill was read a se-
cond time.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
e House adjourned at Twenty minutes to One o'clock.