The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-18 00:00:00

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eoniolation. It was not a question whether Maynooth
was to have twenty or thirty thousand pounds a year, for no
matter how it bad been disguised by the Government, the real
principle in the measure was the endowment of the Roman
Catholic religion in Ireland. He could not support the motion
of the Honourable Member for Sheffield, because he d'd not
understand the idea of plundering one Church for the support
of another, but he aid understand that if they adopted this
measure it would become imperative on them to endow a second
State religion in Ireland. Disguise it as the Government
might, that was the principle. Let them adopt the plan which
prevailed io Scotland if they liked; but to suppose that the
people of Ireland would submit to have two State religions in
the country waa quite absurd.
Mr. RICE said that many of his constituents had opinions
very strongly opposed to this measure, but he would state, in
as few words as possible, why he should not act in accordance
with those opinions, but should give his support cordially and
sincerely to the measure. He did not think that the question
before them was whether they should endow the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood, but whether the grant should be effectual in
giving education to the priesthood of Ireland or not ? He
could understand the observations of those Gentlemen who had
constantly voted consistently against the grant, but he did
not understand why they voted against the increased
grant, who had given their support to the grant on former oc-
casions. The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down
touched two questions ; first, as to the question of compacts, he
did not understand whether there was a compact or not. But
he knew that statesmen who had many years' experience re-
commended the increase of the grant as an act of justice. He
also said that there was a new principle in the increase of this
grant ; but he was of the opinion of the Hon. Secretary at
War, who said that there was no new principle involved in the
increase. Some also objected oa religious and conscientious
grounds, but he was not going to yield to any in attachment to
the religion which he believed to be true ; he would respect
their opinions and conscientious objections, but he could not
disregard the feelings and religious opinions of his fellow sub-
jects and fellow-Christians in Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) Others
objected to the measure, on the ground; that it would tend to
increase the number of Roman Catholics, and to decrease the
number of Protestants in Ireland. He denied that the Bill
would produce such an effect, for by making them more en-
lightened men they would make them more enlightened
Ch istians, and it could not be contended for one
moment that by making them more enlightened
they were rendering them less susceptible of becoming
converts to the truth. Nothing could be more injurious to the
Protestant Church in Ireland, than the existence of grievances
on the Roman Catholic side. Nothing could be more prejudi-
cial to the Protestant religion in that country, than the suppo-
sition, on the part of the Catholics, that they were treated
with injustice. If they wanted to see the grateful feeling with
which the Irish people received the measure, they had only to
look to the Irish representatives. who in the House expressed
their gratitude for the Bill. Looking upon them as the repre-
sentatives of the Irish feeling on the question, they found that
feeling better and more extensive than their most sanguine
expectations led them to hope for. Were they prepared to take
upon themselves the responsibility of refusing a measure which
had been so proposed and so received—were they prepared with
a refusal which would have the effect of disuniting the United
Empire ? He was not so prepared, and he would give his vote
in favour of the second reading of the Bill, which his con-
science and his judgment told him was the right course.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that he confessed that he approached
the consideration of this subject with considerable pain and
anxiety. He was in the habit of hearing remarks directed
against him by the Hon. Member for Kent, which were not
at all of a pleasant description, and which may have been in-
tended to give great discouragement to him in the defence
which he was about to make of Protestant principles. lir--
confessed that though they were unpleasant, they had not had
the effect of crushing his feeling, and the desire which he en-
tertained, of maintaining the course which he intended to
pursue on this question. The Hon. Member for Lambeth said
that from the petitions which had come before the House it
appeared that this question was considered by the people of
England as one of vital importance ; he agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman that was the view taken by the people. If it were
not a subject in which religion was a part it was a matter to
him of insignifieance, whether they gave a certain sum of money
to a certain college in Ireland or not, but he felt that it was a
mast important question when he saw how closely connected with
this Bill were the interests of the Protestant Established Church.
He had heard of a meeting which had lately been held in this
great city, convened by the first magistrate of the city, who
presided upon the occasion, and that meeting was attended by
all the great merchants and bankers, and other traders of this
great city. At that meeting resolutions were adopted which
were, to a certain extent, of a religious character, and advo-
cated religious separation.—(Cries of " No, no.") He had
heard an Hon. Member express dissent, but he should say that
at every meeting held upon this question, religion was the ques-
tion and the only one, and he believed he might say that reli-
gion in this case had taken away the four trumps. Then, there
had been a meetint, held in one of the city theatres, at which
epee hes were made against this measure ; and what were the
leading features of that discussion ? Were politics introduced
there ? No ; nothing but a religious aspect alone charaterised
the proceedings, and formed the leading features of the discus-
sion. Amidst some of the petitions presented against this
measure were two which had been ordered to be printed in
extenso, and which, therefore, became Parliamentary papers;
and he would ask were not those petitions well worthy the con-
sideration of that House? He ( Mr. Plumptre) had had the
pleasure of presenting hundreds of petitions to the House upon
various occasions ; hut, amongst them all, not one was there
that more deeply affected a religious question than the
present. —( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not understand
why, if the present Government were determined upon
carrying this measure, that a different course should be adopted
towards Ireland than was pursued in other countries where the
Raman Catholic religion was endowed.—( Hear, hear.) In
Rueia, Austria, Spain, and other countries, there was a
wholesome control exercised over the Catholic institutions ;
and, therefore, he would ask, if the Roman Catholic religion
were to be endowed in Ireland by the Government, why the
Coeernment should not have some control over it ? The
lion. Member then read some passages from a pamphlet en-
titled " Maynoeth, the Crown of the Country," which he con-
tended supported his arguments ; but the low tone in which he
read the extracts, as well as that in which he spoke, rendered
it almost impossible to catch the connexion of his sentences.
He continued by saying that if evils did arise from such a state
of thugs a, he believed would follow this grant, let the Go-
vernment remember that they had been warned, and made ac-
quainted with the difficulty in which they had been placed.
Nothing could he further from his intention than to give pain
to his Roman Catholic neighbours by any express
liens he should make use of ; but he felt
he Lad a duty to perform—that duty he would NM
no matter how painful to him. Ho had heard the Noble Lord
declare, that he did not believe that the Roman Catholic reli-
gion was the religion of Anti-Christ ; but he (Mr. Plumptre)
should say, he regretted that he could not agree with the
Noble Lord. He had heard a great deal from the Hon. Mem-
ber for Canterbury; but he (Mr. Plumptre) begged to tell
that Hon. Member that he did not want to take advice of
enuesel from him. The Hon. Member concluded by declaring
his determination to oppose the motion.
Mr. TRELAWNY said he wou'd support the measure of
the Government ; but, at the same time, he should say, he
was averse to the endowment of any Church Establishment ;
awl he contended that the further the Government went in
making' such endowments, the deeper they became Involved in
the difficulty. But as an endowment was to be made,
he would contend for it, that in this instance
much that was useful and beneficial would follow.
There was another argument, that this would be an induce-
ment to agitation, and that other Dissenters would demand
endowment. But he thought there could be no parallel be-
tween the ease of the Roman Catholics and the Dissenters of
England. The priests of the Irish Catholics had been perse-
cuted to death—a price had been put by statute upon their
heads. This was a persecution to which the English Dis-
een.Pers had never been subjected. And he further agreed
with those who argued that if the union had never taken place
the Roman Catholics of Ireland would before this have ob-
tained more than the Government now proposed to give them.
From all considerations of justice and expediency he would
support this measure—no matter what unpopularity it might
involve. He was glad that the Right Hon. Baronet who
brought it forward did not shrink from his purpose in
consequence of the taunts which had been cast upon him.
The Honourable Member for Shrewsbury had attacked
the Right Honourable Baronet for his inconsistency,
but the Right Hon. Baronet was very consistent in the way in
which he treated the past adulation and present abuse of the
Hon. Member.—( Hear, hear.) The argument that the mea-
sure ought to be rejected on account of the inconsistency of its
proposer, was worthy only of the Member for Shrewsbury and
Fielding's philosopher, Square.—( Hear.) For his own part,
he gave the measure his hearty support.—( Hear. )
Lord COURTENA Y had weighed well all the arguments of
those who opposed the measure. They could not oppose it on
principle, so long as they allowed a grant of a smaller amount.
Looking to the physical destitution, and the spiritual wants of
the people of Ireland, he would ask would that House do its
day if it did not, to the best of its power, promote the educa-
tion of the priesthood. He thought it was a duty of the Impe-
rial Parliament to effect that object. But that was not his only
reason for supporting the measure, but he thought also that it
would have the effect of binding the connexion between the two
.countries, and promoting the happiness of both.—( Hear. )
Mr. WYKEHAM MARTIN was in the same predicament
as the Hon. Member opposite, who had been required by his
constituents either to vote against this measure or to resign his
seat. But he thought the measure of so much importance to
the good of the United Kingdom, that he felt it his duty to
support her Majesty's Government. He thought those who
supported the regiwn donuni to the Presbyterians could not,
upon principle, oppose a similar support to the more numerous
and mire impoverished Roman Catholics. He did not see
why they should ask the Roman Catholics to contribute to the
astpport of the Protestant Church, if they were not, en the
other hand, willing to give something to maintain the College
of Maynooth. It was painful for him to be obliged to differ
from those who sent him the memorial, for many of whom he
entertained great respect, but he felt that the step he was
taking was the correct one, and he was deeply convinced that
he was only acting according to his duty in supporting the pre-
sent measure.—( Hear.)
Me. H. M. TUI FE would support the measure of the
Goaernruent, as an Irish Member, and he begged
to remind those Hen. Gentlemen who spoke of the Pro-
testants of Ireland, that there were
great number anumber of Irish Pro-
testants who were in tavour of
the measure.—( Hear, hear.)
He considered, that the measure of the Government would
not only be an advantage to Ireland, but to the empire at
large. He regretted the acrimonious feelings which had
been exhibited during the
accused the Government, debate, and those who
thecriesetnalked of being deceived,
abould remember thatßightt I::)onnhourwabitlhe Baronet
gave ample notice of
regard
to this measure—( Hear, hear intention
e had not done
so with regard to the tariff and other inCeasi:ires upon which
reat deal had
so many in that House were interested,
been said of the conduct of the Roman Catholic
it was only last Sunday week that he heard tesece jelregr
congregation,
ygmy,anbuotf
Christchurch, St. Jo'in's-wood, request his
both gentlemen and ladies, to come down to the
after the service to sign petitions against the MaynoosttrlaY-r°anuat.
When that conduct was pursued by a Protestant clergymangr
the Established Church, he did not think that they oigit to
f
be so bitter against the Catholic clergy of Ireland for allowing
the usst.tf their chapels for political purposes, especially as here
they had k'iteter-hall and such places to hold their meetings in.
He thought that the Roman Catholics would feel deeply grate-
ful to the Right Lion. Baronet for this measure.—( Hear. )
.Jr. CAREW (Cornwall) expressed his intention of voting
for the present measure, though he had presented petitions
against the grant. He agreed with the Hon. Member for
Kent, that the question had taken a religious complexion
though he deeply regretted it. He thought they awed some-
thing to the people of Ireland ; and they should not forget the
trickery by which the Union was brought about against the
consent of the majority of the Irish people. He did not
sympathise with those who thought the present measure would
destroy the Established Church in Ireland. He could not see
how the affording of increased education to the educators of the
people of Ireland could have that effect.
Lord LE YESOti regretted the tone of bitterness used by
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln. He did not think
he was called upon to enter into the consideration of theq
ques-
tion, how far the Government deserved the censurebeso liberally
bestowed by those who sat behind them ? It mast
evident
to
every one that the Government had begun to regret the line of
policy which they pursued when in Opposition. He wished to
drop that subject. He felt anxious to support a measure, which
Ile really believed to be good in itself; and which he thought
good, because unaccompanied by any injudicious and harsh re.
strietions, and because, from what he had seen of the state of