The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-11 00:00:00

to observe, that scruples might he entertained by his late want of those established relations of society, without
Majesty on the .subject of granting further -concessions to .which no country could be great or happy—in the want of
the Catholics, •on the ground of the supposed interference la resident respectable gentry. If the people of Ireland
with the pronisions of the Corenatlon Oath that would 'were at a loss to discpver the source of theiemiseries, they
be thus occasioned. It bad been said that denehts .and 'would receive a complete and conclusive answer in the word
ternples-weie entertained on thisesubjetf; certainly, they Absentees." Feeling as he did for the sufferings of that
had been entertained, fey, his tate Majesty; - NOW, if the I country, he would he most happy, if a Committee were
question was to be discuised'idati; it was siekessary to look appointed, to take into consideration, early in the ensuing
at the Coronation Oath, and See if the objections started by Session, the state of Ireland. There was one question of
the'Noble Baron, on this ground, Were welifounded. The. great delicacy brought forward on the, present discussion,
effect 4e-the Coronation Oath was shortly this-Lnthe King 1 tend to which he would not have adverted hall it not, been
pledged himself, in taking it, to preservenwaheethinhops introduced into the preseut discussion by others. He el-
and clergy, and to the church, all their righf aelen. 'lnnen hided to *the Coronation Oath. -He folly agreed with an
!eggs, and to maintain, "to" the, utmost of, hie-power, the eminent moralist whet natniended that an oath was to be
Protestant Church as by law established inthese . realms, received anima irnionnelite, and not anima suscipiente.
and the'true profession of the Gospel. [A Noble Lord The question entirely was as to the intention of the oath.
encleinaed, l' Hear, bear," with considerable vehemence, Much had been said respecting, the-march of intellect;; but
accompanaing his sheer with one or two emphatic strokes if the distinguished meet _by tvhoni_that oath was framed
of his baud on the table, but whether (as was said) the could listen to the debateseof that -House, they would eons
Noble Lord was the Earl of Eldon,. or Lord Colchester, eider that the•hunaaniniellect,lead made very little 'gunnies
°or ;situation in the midst of ' the crowd belOw the bar did since their;day. The most mature :end impartial consider-
not afford tie an opportunity of Observing. After the ice- /dime led him to 'the conclusion that he should bell Alis-
terruption, which occasioned a good deal of laughter charge his 'duty by opposing, the 'motion of the Noble
amoug their Lordship, the Noble Earl proceeded.] If Marquis.
. ,
concessions to the Roman Cetholice were contrary to the The Earl of FALMOUTH agreed with the Noble
spirit of the Coronation Oath, concessions to 'the Dissenters Lords whO distinguished between the Catholic Association
were equally opposed to it—and the reginut doom-a to the and the Catholic community, but he thought that decided
Presbyterian Clergy in the North of Ireland was in this hostility to the Established Church was.comnion to both.
sense a violation- of that engagement. But when the Ile.expressed•his strong dissent from the propositions on
peace of the country wire in question, it was a little too the subject of the Catholic Claims put forth by Mr. G.
much to come to the Coronation Oath, and say that at- Knight and by Mr. Wilmot Horton. The Noble Lord op-
tempts at it's preservation were infringements upon that polite had failed to • show the analogy for which he con-
declaration. A more unconstitutional doctrine than this tended, between tire situation of this country and the foreign
was never heard of. He thought a more unfortunate States, where Catholics were in
.possession of pailitical
and blameworthy" doctrine could not be broached pew-er—and Le failed further in deriVing any substantial
thah this, With respect to the supposed effect and influence advantage from the case of Holland, where Catholics were
of,the -Coronation-Oath to preclude the King from con- admitted to power so lately an 1815. The cases of despotic
ceding to Roman Catholics the privileges which they re- Governments bad PO analogy to ours, and rather weakened
quire& Lie felt he- had trespassed too long on their Lord- than promoted the cause which the Noble Lord sought to
ships' time and attention, hut he was, nevertheless, anxious advance ; ours was a Constitution sui yener;s, and admitted
to advert to something that fell from the most Rev. Prelate'' not of being tampered with like the political systems of the
(the Archbishop of Tuam) who last night spoke third in Continent. He regretted greatly the declaration made by
order in this debate, and who was now sitting near the a Royal Duke, for the first time, of his concurrence with
door. The moot Rev. Prelate alluded to the same unfortu- those who favoured the views of the Catholics. With
nate Dr. Doyle, whose name' had been already so fee- their Lordships' -Permission he would read a short extract
quently called in question, and proceeded to comment on from *letter which appeared in the Leeds Intelligenser of
the conduct of the doctor With; considerable severity-=a se- the 2211 of May—it was as follows : .-
verity that seeined to have been dictated by great appre- "In taking this step, the best security possible for the
pension of the motives and intentions-of that individual. attainment. of the great object in view, a Constitution 1
'God knew, he had no intention to defend Dr. Doyle ;so far wholly Protestaet, was effected—the title, of the Sovereign
~...- from attempting to do so, he was ready to admit he had and all his'faittire successors, was made contingent upon
' done a great deal of mischief ; but at the same that it was their being Protestants—implying, of necessity, that they
fair to consider that ' Dr. Doyle was not the only angry weitial, to.preserve a tide depending on. this express and
Churchman that ever existed, not a member of the only sole condition, rigidly maintain the exclusive Protestant-.
Chuiels in tine world that could -be excited to strong rein. ism of the two Houses of Parliament, and of all the great
gioue animosity by political and theological discussion. It offices of the State.' Impressed with a profound conviction
I
was possible that some learned and eloquent person might of this constatutianal truth, the Earl of Liverpool, in die-
have talked of " a religion without a Church, and a Church cussing the Roman .Catholic Question in 1n25, declared to
without a religion ;" and it 'was equally possible that the oh- the House of Lords, 'that if they granted the 'present de-
zervation 'night not have sweetened the temper of Dr. Doyle, manila of the Papists, it'would be impossible, because ab-
who, perhaps, sat down to revenge himselfon that pungent surd, afterwards to exchide an Heir Apparent to the Throne
remark, by a tirade against the Protestant Establislimeut, if he should happen to be a Roman Catholic. And what
If Noble Lords wished to take away the sting of such men is the nature), inference from this position ? That the
as Dr. Doyle, they would concede what was now de- Protestautisni of the Monarch being ncelonger requisite,
mended. He (the Earl of Haddington) humbly suto the reasone.for withholding the Crown from the nearest
mated that the Church of Ireland was not now safe nor heir of the Sttusrts now alive
~is abolished ! ! Am! what
secure; on the contrary, it was unsafe and insecure—un- said Sir. Frarieis Burdett in his last speech on the• Roman
- safe and insecure merely in crsn'equenee of all these appro. Catholic Question, as quoting an old and acknowledged
rent defences and barriers, but actual causes of weakness,. dictum: of. English law? Cessante rations cessit ipsa et
with which they had attempted to hedge it in. The Pro- lea! ! ! •
testant Church was in danger in Ireland;' anti if the con- "
.The principle of danger, or rather of civil war and
cession of these claims placed it in no more danger than anarchy thus inherent in conceding tlit claims of the Papists,
at .-present, they ought to concede them, and, by their is one which it has always been a priniiry object with British
nanceeeion, do an act of justice to millions of their law-givers topers! Against. For instance, in ' the Bill or
fellow-eubjects. But if their • Lordships took away the Rights,' the ,comprehensive Act passed in the second Session
cause of irritation and contest • now subsisting in Ire- of the first of William mid Mary, and which emphatically
land, one half of tire danger and . difficulty would be combines in onelaw. . (declaring their mutual relations and
done sway with. Let them act thins, and show the people dependence ou each other,) every motive and purpose of the
of Ireland that it was no longer their intention to act Revolution then effected, viz., Ist, the cause of James lld.'s
cal the exclusive system—that it should he no longer nc- dethronement, namely, 'that he and his Ministers did en-
cessary fur the Lendable aspiratican of every talented and deavour to extirpate the Protestaut religion, and the lawi
ambitious young matt of the Roman Catholic persuasion to and liberties of this kingdom.' 2d, the subjects' rights.
be represeecl—and, acting time, their Lordships might ex.. Sd, the tender to and acceptance of the Crown by 'William
Feet to eee the happiest results. There was one other and Mary, hichnling the Oaths of Supremacy and Declarae
topic to which it only now remained for him to direct their lion against Popery. 4tin the limitation .of else Crown.
Lordstaips' attention. He had heard with pleasure the acute nth, the debarring of Papists from the succession. In this
and sensible remarks of the Noble Marquis ,relative to the great Charter, we repeat, of British freedom, the dread of
feelings of the Roman Catholic Bishops ; and he had also -permitting ,any ground to dispute the Throne is repressed
heard the observations that fell from the Noble Earl, which in these emphatic terms :—.
eienmeti to him waif the Noble Lord had a tendency to give " And for preventing all questions and divisions in this
way in Isis eopposition to this measure, if eatideti of its. realm, by reasunof any pretended titles to the Crown; and
haernkennees. At the same time there was one topic which for preserving a certainty in the aucceseioa thereof, in and
tire Noble Lard adverted to, and in doing so, like every upon which the unity, peace, tranquillity, and safety of this
ether Englishman, he appeared to be roused at the notion nation doth, nnder God, wholly consist and depend, the .
of acting under the influence of fear or apprehension, and said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Com:nous, do be-
frankly said he would nut be intimidated. 'Now, if the reed, their Majesties, &c."
Noble Lord had taken the distinction-that existed between The Noble Lord, after "a. few farther observations upon
physical and political courage and their contraries, he might the necessity of a Protestant succession to the Throne, pro.
not have attached so much importance to the effect of ceeded to observe that experiments might with more safety
any menuees that might have been resorted to by the Ro- he tried upon commerce or agriculture their upon tire cool-
man Catholic leaders. The most courageous man in the tial principles of the Constitution.
world might act ender tire influence of a fear of adopting a
.The Duke -of SUSSEX.—In spite of the warning.]
(*rein particular line of policy, from an apprehension of which I have just heard, I shall venture ,to occupy some
the ill eonstemences with which it might he attended ; portion of your Lordships' time and attention, and being a
aud, on these grounds, he might prefer another course member of the Royal Family, I feel called upon by the
not exposed to similar objections. He called on the Noble situations I hold in the country to make a few observations.
Lord to gay, whether there had not been times and cir- I beg to state that I-accord fully with what hay been said
enenstancee that afforded frequent cause for such fears. by Noble Lords who support the other side of this question
Why should the Noble Lord be influenced by the boisterous so far aanprinciple is concerned—all we differ about is the
harangues of the Catholic Association? The leaders of means by which the objects we pursue in common ought
the Catholics attempted to bully their opponents into con- CH be effected. I am particularly anxious, my Lords, not
cession—at Least so it had been represented—and the to give a sileut vote upon the motion of my Noble Friend.
Noble Lord, on this ground, refused to grant whatwas de-- I am, I confess it, my Lords, most aaxieus to.' state my
mended, thus nernsitiing the Catholic leaders to exercise views of this great question at tire present juncture.' • I an,
au influence over hint ~..ts far as his negative upon this anxious to lay' before your Lordships the considerations
question was concerned. Let Noble Lords resolve to con- which efterate on try mind, and lead me to 'a conclusion
sent to the present propneitien, and there would be no similar to that which governs my Noble Friend in the
fear but that they would be able to bring this matter to a motion that he has submitted to the' House: I shall not
happy conclusion. take up your Lordship's' time by endeavnuring to prove 'what
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS said, there were there can be very little difference" of, opinion, aboutn_
two' points to be eneeetained by their Lordisiiiips—tirst, namely, that the 'civil rights of British subjects are inalien-
whether, or not the Roman Catholics had any just right able—that by the great Charter there is secured to us the
or claim to what was now demanded ; and next, if they liberties and free customs of this Realer—that no 'man can
had not such a t-,e,ht, whether we were called! upon on any be despoiled of thou without tire consent of his'Peers
principle" of justice or cxPeditocy to grant ' tI4 privileges they are in tiiii important record denominate! she birth-
which they sought. There was a manifest difference be- right of Englishmen, and every sanction and authority is
tween political and religionsetoleration-nreliginue tolera- given to render them operative and inalienable. . Again,
tiod had reference to-the intercourse subsisting between' •the when there Was a revival as it were *of the principle's of
creature and Ilia creator-'--politie.al toleration respected the the Constitution at the period of the Revolution—when the
intercourse between man and man. It Would be a need- Bill of flights was presented to the Prince of Orange—on
less waste of their Lordships' time to'attenvt to prove that behalf of the people-it was claimed; demanded, and insisted
tine Roman Catholics were in Possession of unqualified on,- that all and singUlar the rights, privileges, and liberties
religious toteration--euffice it to say, Roman Catholic of the people of Eugland should remain to them inalienably,
places of worship were recognized by the law, andevery and fur ever. In its latter part, after reciting a preceding
one was at liberty to worship God as his reason and hie portion of the Act, it recognises all and singular tine privi-
.1
conscience might direct. Burt it would be said, why was Ines previously secured by the Great Charter. History
not political toleration equally conceded with that which relaters me but too well aware that there have been occa-
had been extended to the exercise of teligion? And why since when tire liberties of the 'subject may be restrained
were not the professors of different religions beliefs equally for the preservation of that Constitution whence they were
admissible tin all place+ of civil trust, entelumetrt, and originally derived, but I see nothing in tire principles of
dignity in the State? This was the question on tviaich the British Constitution to warrant the assertion, that any
their Lordship'' were now called to deliberate. If class of British suhjects may be proscribed on account of
they looked back to le remote period oe our history, from their religions. tenets. I know nut any principle in our
the first faint dawn Of the Reformation el, to the gio_ Constitution which will enable one party to proscribe
trims period of the Re-oointion (a period at which were another body that may happen to be obnoxious to it—
established the relieion and liberty of the country, see a still less do I know of any Constitutional principle which
foundation which -he honed Oght- petwe a rOck of Agee), will authorise the retention of penal enactments after the
they would find that tine Protestant Church had ever been itesenniey for their continuance had disappe,aeed, F,nacte
the parent of liberty, religion, peace, and happiness ; hut, ments of Oat description are from their very nature fein-
on the contrary, that whenever the natiou lied relapsed poeary ; and in' n country where Civil servitude is un-
into Popery, civil contention, discord, and anis/m.44, had knoWn, such procklr;eeeions ought to Cease, under altruist
;invariably followed. But it might be said, "tire Rareeri any circumstances in whieh that country might be placed,
Catholics of the present day differ exCeeclingly from thine t I,in4 most especially ought they to ,cease, when the cause
5,3 preending times." He wae quite ready
to give all the which called Ahem into existence no Larger continues to
pi-Mee luxd commendations which they deserved to the high operate. It is a maxim of law, that when the Govern-
talents and Anquirements of many distinguiebed persons
_of m_ ent of any country imposes upon the will of a subject any
the Roman Catholic persuasion ; but at the
.same time he degree of wanton restteint, men matter whether that Governe
must express his keit opinion, that the Roman Catholic Anent be tine .Government of a Moriarch, a Nobility, or a
Church was tine same now as it had formerly been. Of Poeptilan Assembly, the impositioie of thatwanton restraint is
sire always re- tl beginnietrnto! tyranny. In this View I am supported
that church, it was cress of the boasts that
tir,,da!".othmo yatol Pr. Paley.—.[Here his Royal Highness
mained the same—sempee eapn. She was unaltered and by the
quo ..d t• tte utiliser, hut owing, to the Curfusion which
unalterable. Whatever distinguished members of the Ro-
helot's: the liar, • Ite 1
man Catholic Challis might feel inclined to do, such Power
prevailed._
did that church „lain, to exercise over 01,i,e minds of her which we were placed, all tire word* of the passage were
if not audible;
disciples, that they were frequently unable to naent it,that the
appeared to be ae stated above.]
it were only supposed to be io opposition to her 4,tf- It strikes me, t, e laws of which tire Catholics now seek
rests. He might mention an 4kstaxee that had oe- Or repeal might have abeen very expedient et the time they
were enented, and theirnontintrace at the present day ex-
curved of this nature. It wets in theta. Tordships' re-
collection, that during Mr. Pitt's 'Administenenon, per trendy ileaneeesary,., inexpedient,' and unjust. It has
eons were sent abroad to collect the opinieres of the always been my .00nsene,o, ,
,;etst. three penril enactments
foreign Catholic" Universities, with respect to certain sienelided alto ether nipndl anc,w_ :cu. of time. On this
Lordships is no en olyseve, that the
• to „inflected with the supposed 1; ;el ;
poonce..ukience of the p*.aft your Lo
pow • a ee • tire Catholics were passed at a time when
Pope. 'The answers of the Universities were faeoereble— Acts aga.r.
re, ee apprehended from the 'Cad oti
indeed, all that a Protestant State could desire. tt would great clanger '%'''' , di,
,s
so biodir I
_a
be also remembered that the most dietinguished RomanCa- eniers ; they were nut hr I;P" 3 There %ig
aml
it is said
tholice came forward with a Protest and dechirntion on the they ail, likely to proye in luting. _ 9
that tnen, per-
same subject, in which they annotmciel their opinion on hap,' ' enfficlent reason lb; the tealo,u. y existed, e
fe, winch are now' !event,'
:he question, in a manner se clear and satisfactory, as to aidse'very penalties Gf prenr.uni d
inn Catholic times it
meet the wishes of all, and set at rest the doubts of the egairuse the .Catholics, originate en and
meet as they then
STICBt timid. But at this time three Vicars Apostolic were supperted by Cetholic re J.
'Th
e with foreign powers. en,
.came forward, and said the people had nothing to do with justly were of airy intercour. e
have'
:loci regulations of the Church, or the power of the Pope, nry Lords, I say, hat ls,wever wise flsotne Acts might
i
itsul the consequence of this declaration was, that the pen_ been at the time, it might have been necessary to prim t
tion of the Roman Catholics; previously laid helot, Par- such safegoarde agaieet fureign intercpurse, seeing dint
tiament, was withdrawn. It had been said, that to grant knowledge was then tire almost exclusive property of tine
Roman Catholic Emancipation was the grata remedy for prinnliood, and seeing that the priesthood were for the
all the evils of Ireland, but he was afraid thiit such wee most part either r eireieners, 'oe raised 'fienn the very lowest
not the case. He was not insensible to the - evils under oitlere of society, iltlt(miglkt, therefore; tun withehatredut mime
which Ireland was groaning ; but the sources of three e I show of reason, be. suspected of jealousy .and to-
Were to be found in the want of employment...in the , wards their superiors. I think then, riy Lords, it ieper•