The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAND-ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Mr. ROSS rose to move the Order of the Day for the ad-
journed debate. He said he was heartily in favour of the
proposition of the Noble Lord (John Russell) for a Select
Committee to inquire into the causes of discontent and dis-
affection which prevailed in Ireland. He had listened with
great attention to what fell from Honourable Gentlemen oppo-
site; but he confessed that although he heard some intimation
of measures which were not only unobjectionable, but even
having some amount of good in them, still he had heard no-
thing from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home
Department, of a disposition to remove the complicated maladies
of Ireland, or any intimation of an intention to deal out that
measure of justice which had been so long and so ear-
nestly sought.—( Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, that
the interference of this House was more than ever essentially
necessary to the welfare of Ireland—indeed, for the safety of
the whole empire.—( Hear, hear.) So little did the Right
Hon. Gentleman seem to regard the complaints of the Irish
people—so little did he attend to their rights, that he was at
issue with the great body of the people of that country—with
the majority of their representatives, who constituted a formid-
able minority in that House—(Hear)—with a great mass of the
people of England and of Scotland, and with all the world who
are spectators, to whom his policy in Ireland appeared to be in-
explicable. It must appear inexplicable and astonishing to any
foreigner who read our history, to observe that after a
connexion of six centuries, and a nominal incorporation
of forty-three years, no real union or consolidation of
interests had taken place. It must be astonishing, that with
the opinion of statesmen and of sages in favour of a more con-
ciliatory course, with the experience of recent events as well
as of past history, the Right Hon. Gentleman was obsti-
nately bent upon persisting in the unfortunate course, that was
calculated to fill the whole civilised world with astonishment.
The vast empire of India was governed by an attention
to its welfare ; and even the late aggressions upon the
frontier were accompanied with promises of amelioration and
conciliation ; but in Ireland, to this moment, no such promise
was held out. It was impossible to doubt that a proper exer-
cise of moral power would pacify Ireland in a month.—( Hear,
hear.) The Legislature of this country was absolute, and for
the tranquillization of Ireland the will alone was wanting. An
experiment was tried a year ago, and was eminently successful.
The feelings of his (Mr. Ross's) countrymen were soothed by
the impartial, just, and gentle administration of the laws.—
( Hear, hear.) The gaols were empty—the soldiers useless.
If the Government had continued in that course, and had en-
larged the boundaries of popular rights, the same tranquillity
would have continued. It happened during that time that this
country became involved in difficulties with one of the colonies ;
and, in allusion to that subject, a Noble and Learned Lord in the
other House quoted from Mr. Fox a passage, to which he (Mr.
Ross) would refer, and which had previously been cited by a
Noble Lord in this House ( Lord John Russell). He
had no doubt that the Noble Lord conceived the use made
of the quotation was more able than just.—( Hear, hear. )
The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract:from a speech of Lord
Brougham's, and went on to ask where was that parental care
exhibited for Ireland of which the Noble and Learned Lord
had spoke—whose complaints were now unheeded—whose hopes
disappointed ? Were they those of the people of Ireland ? And
with respect to the political leader of that people, Mr.
O'Connell, he must say, it was unfair to charge him with
want of sincerity in his endeavours to serve his country. The
men who were called " O'Connell's police" were appointed
in good faith to preserve peace and order at the
repeal meetings, and very successful they were in carrying
out that object. He repeated, he believed that Mr. O'Connell
was perfectly sincere, and it was a very hard thing iryleed to
proceed against him by criminal prosecution for his exertions.
Had he not frequently said, that ono drop of blood would be
too dear a price for any good he could obtain ? and upon what
ground, he asked, would Honourable Gentlemen charge
Dlr. O'Connell with being a hypocrite, and say that his
words were smoother than oil, but that his thoughts breathed
nothing but violence ?
[Here the Honourable and Learned Member for
Cork (Mr. O'Connell) entered the House. His first ap-
pearance at the door was the signal for a loud and enthusiastic
burst of applause from all the Members of the Opposition, which,
as well as those on the Ministerial benches were much crowded.
The cheers as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman walked
up the floor of the House, were renewed again and again, and
as he took his seat in his usual place, Mr. Hume and several
other Hon. Gentlemen around crowded forward, and shook
him warmly by the hand. Mr. _Ross, who was addressing the
House, was then about to resume his observations, when the
apilause again burst forth, and was continued for some seconds,
whenA Lr theß oe
sx csi t
proceeded
ec ne
dceased
Lk, was it wise in them to treat
the man who had been received in the way in which Mr.
O'Connell was received at that moment, as they had
treated him ?—(Loud cheers.) They might put him in
a gaol.—.( Loud cheering.) How much safer would
they be if they did so ?—( Cheers. ) What security would
there be if he declared—( Continued cheering, and cries of
" Oh, oh.") He treated this as a political question. He
asked them to pursue the same course in Ireland which
they had pursued in Canada.—(Cheers, and Hear, hear. )
Had they well considered the consequences of alienating the
Irish people. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
Arms Bill, the only consequence of which was that it caused
alarm and consternation in Ireland, and all persons were
anxious to procure arms. He knew himself a clergyman
of the Established Church, who went about the country
procuring arms for the Orangemen, and large
collections of arms and ammunition were made for
them on the easy terms of paying for them by instalments.
He believed that the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland was
aware of this. In one place 3,000 arms had been registered.
What, then, ought to be done in such a state of things ? In
the first place. he thought that the religion of the majority of
the people of Ireland ought to be scrupulously regarded. The
affections of the people ought to be cultivated, and every abuse
ought to be found out with a keen eye, and cut away with a
firm hand. Such were the means they ought to adopt instead of
fruitlessly scattering the revenue of the country in supporting
troops in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
opinion of Lord Bacon, who, after giving a very flattering de-
scription of the fertility of Ireland, and her bold, hardy, and
active population, said that they ought to unite the
hand of man with the hand of nature to elevate and raise her.
An Hon. Gentleman said last night that the discontent
of Ireland was owing to the physical discontent of her
people. He denied that that was the fact. No doubt it
was one cause ; but the poorer classes of Ireland were
not those who were most discontented. It was the
educated class who felt themselves to be inadequately repre-
sented and who were most discontented. Notwithstanding
what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman to explain
the striking off of the Catholics from the panel, he confessed
that he was not altogether satisfied. He was not satisfied that
the proper measures had been taken with respect to Mr. Dunn;

and with regard to Mr. Hendrick, some charge appeared to be
hanging over him which no one could guess at. 1 he people of
Ireland were discontented at the manner in which justice had
been administered. It was not very gratifying, and could not be
very satisfactory to the people of Ireland for him, the Lord
Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, to say that he spoke under
correction of the counsel for the Crown. That was
not language which, in his opinion, ought to be
used by so high a judicial functionary. There
was no medium or safe course between a government
of, conciliation and a government of violence. He
did not believe that her Majesty's present Government
contemplated a government by force fir any length of time ;
and as to the other course, that of conciliation and concession,
he knew it would be very disagreeable to them and to those
who supported them ; it would require great patience,
great moderation, and some considerable sacrifice, but they
must make up their minds that Ireland must be a Popish
country. He knew that it was difficult, but they must make up
their minds to it—not less than had been done in
Scotland, of which country the institutions were in many
respects at greater variance with the Anglican Church than
with the Roman Catholic.—( Hear.) They must arrive at equality.
They must not remain in addition, substraction, and division ; to
arrive at equality, they roust go to the rule of proportion—to the
rule of three.—( Laughter.) But by no posssibility could they
reconcile the present state of the Church to the feelings of the
people or to justice. Could they by possibility make up their
minds to go the length which he, and others on his side
of the Raise, thought they ought to go, they
wool no longer have to say that Ireland was their
difficulty.—( Loud cheers ) The Hon. Member sat down
amidst much cheering, in which his concluding sentence was
quite lost.
Mr P. BORTHWICK said that in the able speech which
the House had just heard, the Honourable Gentleman did
not say what remedies he would propose in the social,
civil, or ecclesiastical institutions of Ireland. If the Hon-
ourable Gentleman proposed to establish the Roman Ca-
tholic Church in Ireland as the Presbyterian Church was
established in Scotland—and he ( Mr. Borthwick) thought that
by far the most equitable and feasible arrangement—yet he
believed that the Hon. Member would have no more determined
opponent to such a proposition than the Noble Lord who sat
beside him ( Lord John Russell). With respect to
the late trials, he must confess that he had looked
upon it with dread. He thought that one result of
it must be that it would increase the influence of the Libe-
rator, who would now be regarded by the people net
merely as an agitator, but as a martyr in their
cause. However, it would have this advantage, that it
would enable the Government to advance to Ireland with
measures of conciliation, when they were in a condition to say
that concession had not been extorted by intimidation—when
they had put an end to those multitudinous meetings which
disquieted Ireland, and, he might say, alarmed Europe.
What benefit did they expect would arise from a debate on the
sufferings of Ireland in that House ? Why, none what-
ever—or rather the effect of a debate, which would be
nothing but an interchange of charges between the opposing
parties, would be but to embitter the animosities which dis-
tracted that country and add to the fuel that consumed it.
That would be the effect of a debate, and not a
remedy for the evils of the country. The Honourable
Gentleman who had spoken last said that Mr. O'Connell
was perfectly sincere in his desire to benefit his country.
He (Mr. Borthwick) for one never had the slightest doubt
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork in his long career
had only in view the good of his country. But he was not to
judge of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's motives, but of
the results of his career, and if he were asked whether it were
better to assist the Minister of-the Crown in proposing re-
medial measures for Ireland, or aid in taking from that House
the power of legislating for that country, he could have no hesi-
tation in giving the preference to the former course. With re-
spect to the motion of the Noble Lord (J. Russell), he must
certainly oppose it, because no goo d to Ireland could result
from it. Suppose that, instead of Lord Normanhy, an Orange-
man had been Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, would it not have
been considered very unfair to quote the opinions and policy of
such an ultra-Lord-Lieutenant, as a precedent for future
Lord-Lieutenants. He craved permission of Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to consider that sympathy for the people of Ireland
was not entirely confined to themselves—they should give Hon.
Members on this side of the House credit for acting, according
to their honest convictions. No measure could be more calcu-
lated to confer any practical benefit on the Irish people than
the motion of the Noble Lord, nor hardly any measure more
productive of mischief.—( Hear) No favourable issue could be
anticipated from it, and he felt it to be his bounden duty to
give that motion his most strenuous opposition. And in:so doing
he would not be actuated by any motive of indifference or dis-
like to the interests of the people of Ireland, and he sincerely
wished that the government of that people might be carried
out in the spirit of affection and good-will, in such a manner as
would secure ultimate peace and prosperity to that country.
There was adisposition on the other side of the House, to attri-
bute every vote given in favour of Ministers to a hatred of
Ireland—that was a most unjust aspersion. The Noble Lord
had alluded to the term " aliens," used by the Lord Chancellor.
Ho thought sufficient explanation had been given to the House
that that word had not been used in an invidious sense. The Eng-
lish were aliens in the same sense as the Irish were in the way
Lord Lyndhurst had used the word.— ( Hear, hear.) They
were aliens to the Irish as the Irish were to them. He could
hardly wonder at strong expressions having been used by the
Hon. Member for Cork, when the Noble Lord, the Member for
London, condescended to have recourse to such paltry party sub.
terfuges. The agitator was no longer the Member for Cork,
but the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of Lon-
don. Agitation had been transferred to the benches opposite.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had been received
in that House in a spirit of good-will. He participated in that
spirit. But as they sat in that House as legislators, he was of
opinion those who so received him after his conviction must be
inimical and hostile to the good of the State.—(Cheers.) He
(Mr. Borthwick) had the greatest respect for the abilities of
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and he believed he was
sincere in the policy he pursued, though he was net very cour-
teously received even by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
himself, when on one occasion he said so. Now that the law
had been vindicated, he did not wish he should receive any
punishment.—( Hear, hear.) 'I he people of Ireland would
now perceive that the language addressed to them by Mr.
O'Connell was not to be tolerated. They would see he was not
to be a Viceroy over her Majesty, and was not to supersede
both Houses of Parliament. He thought the empire owed
the present Government a debt of gratitude for putting down
the agitation, and he now hoped that they would follow it up,
by developing the great resources of prosperity in Ireland, and
would pull up all those noxious weeds which would tend to
foster any similarly obnoxious agitation.
Sir H. WINSTON BARRON said ha did not rise for the
purpose of answering the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, but he rose to ask whether, after this country had pos-
sessed Ireland for 100 years, they were still determined to keep
herby a military occupation ? The Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, confessed that
she was to be so held, and no Hon. Gentleman denied it. Now
he would ask in sober sadness, as an Irishman—of the people
of England, of the people of Scotland, the people of Wales, of
the whole civilized world, whether this was a state of things
which could be borne by any men of spirit who had hearts to
feel or hands to act? He did not say it by way
of menace, but he asked them did they think the
people of Ireland ought to submit to it ? They would
not submit to be kept in military bondage by any nation.—
( Cheers.) You would not submit to it yourselves. You
extracted Magna Charta from one King, and you brought
another—he would not then inquire whether justly or no—to
the block, because he attempted to encroach upon your liber-
ties ; and when you would not submit to be tyrannised yourselves,
do you think the people of Ireland will submit to it ?—( Cheers. )
It was not in human nature to submit to it, and the people of
Ireland would not long submit to it. He would never join in any
armed opposition to the laws of the land—he would never unite in
any military array against the Government, if such arose in the
country; but did they think that seven millions of Irishmen
had the same reasons for not doing so which he had ? The country
was poor and distracted—it was in a state approaching to disor-
ganization. They had many grievances to complain of, as he
was prepared to show, upon the authority of men possessed of
large fortunesin the country—men of rank—men who seldom
mix themselves up in politioal agitation. A petition had been
presented to Parliament by men representing property amount-
ing, at least, to LOO,OOO/. or 600,000 e a-year. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then referred to the petition agreed to at Charlemont
House, and setting forth the grievances of the country. The
Hon. Gentleman then referred to the address of the Irish Mem-
bers at the close of the last session of Parliament. They set
forth the grievances of the country, and, amongst other things,
they complained that the resources of the country were not
developed. This, in his opinion, was one of the greatest evils
afflicting Ireland. The second demand of the Irish represen-
tatives last year was, the recognition of perfect equality with
regard to ecclesiastical and educational arrangements between
the several religious classes into which the population of Ireland
is divided ; the third was a more ample representation; the
fourth, a franchise adequate to giving full expression to public
opinion ; the fifth, an assimilation of municipal rights in both
countries ; the sixth, that Ireland should participate more
largely in the benefit of the public expenditure. That was a
matter which had been sadly neglected by the British Legisla-
ture—by English Chancellors of the Exchequer—and by none
more than by the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he saw oppo-
site. The seventh demand was, that, in the administra-
tion of the Government, the profession of the Roman Catholic
faith, should be no longer a ground virtually, as it had ceased
to be one legally, of exclusion from official situations. And on
this subject he must advert to the anomalous position in which
Ireland found herself. There was not a place of honour
and emolument there which was not filled with men totally
ignorant of, and unconnected with, Ireland—men who first
set their foot on the soil of Ireland when they went
to fill 4 situation there. Then, with respect to
legislative representation, Ireland was entitled to at least 130
Members. Why, he asked, should not Ireland have as many
voters, in proportion to her population and resources, as Eng-
land? Were not the voters in that country as independent, and
as worthy of the franchise, as the voters in England? Were
they not rather more independent, for it was a well-known fact
that a tenant in England never ventured to vote against the
wishes of his landlord, while, in Ireland, the voter invariably
voted according to his conscience. He knew an instance of
his position with respect to the English voter, which bore him
out in his assertion. In a county of England with which he
was acquainted, a Noble Lord possessed an estate, the tenants
upon which always voted for a Whig candidate at elections,
because the Noble Lord was of Whig principles. The heir
who afterwards inherited the estate was of opposite principles,
and what was the consequence ? Why, the tenants voted at the
last election for the Conservative candidate, a thing they never
did in their lives before. With respect to taxation, which was
a matter of the utmost importance in an inquiry into the
state of Ireland, very erroneous statements were very in-
dustriously circulated. A writer, in whom Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite seemed to have great confidence, had written
a pamphlet on this subject, which was filled with mis-
representations from beginning to end. He meant the
late work of Mr. Montgomery Martin. By such productions
Englishmen were led to believe that Ireland did not bear a fair
share of the taxation of the empire. But he would cite the
opinions of men whose authority on the subject certainly could
not be outweighed by that of Mr. Montgomery Martin, how-
ever much Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think of that per-
son. Lord Fitzgerald, the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer
in the year 1816, when proposing the consolidation of the Ex-
chequers of the two countries, stated that Ireland had, in the
sixteen years that elapsed since the union, paid 78,000,000/. in
taxation, which was 47,000,0001. more than she was bound to
pay; and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer), in the year 1822, stated that it was then al-
lowed, on all hands, that the contribution to the taxation of the
empire of two-seventeenths from Ireland, %vas more than she
was able to bear. Mr. Leslie Foster bore similar testimony as
to Ireland's being overburdened with taxation. Had the Right
Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government no
remedy to offer for such a state of matters ? He ( Sir H.
Barron) believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was placed
in a false position with respect to Ireland. He believed
him honest in his intentions and opinions, but he
was diametrically opposed to the party who supported
him in that country, and how then could he hold office with
honour to himself and benefit to the country while such was
the case. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to retire from
office when he found he could not benefit the country by his
administration, or he ought to adept measures of a really beneficial
nature. The trade and manufactures of Ireland had been de-
clining apace ever since the union. The
Hon. Baronet then
quoted extracts from the speech of Dr. Bo ton, a Conserva-
tive, in order to show that the trade and manufactures of Ire-
land hail declined since the union. The Doctor said that the
imports and exports of Ireland had vastly diminished, that
thousands of people were out of employment, and had not the

slightest means of obtaining their daily bread. Was it not the
business of a great statesman to prevent the ontinuance of such
a state of things without attempting a remedy? Public work&
such as railroads, opening the mines and collierie:, and cling-
ing waste lands, should be set on fort. 'I he condition of this
people was getting worse froni year to year, and by cons's.
quence, crime had increased, for, in the year the Whigs went'
out of office, it required only a military torce of 13,000, now
double the number are requisite. The Irish yeople should be
governed, not by the sword, but by enlisting their affections
He was sorry to say that those newspapers which were said to
represent the Irish Government, such as the Mail and the
Packet, were continually pouring out the vilest abuse on the
Catholic people and their clergy; and these attacks were echoed
on this side of the Channel by the 'limes, which used such
phrases as " surpliced ruffians," and a " demon priest-
hood." He did not attribute the feelings which gave
birth to them to the English people. God forbid. He
did not • believe the sensible portion of the
English people were actuated by such feelings. But what were
they to say to the declamations at Exeter-hall—what were
they to say to the printed emanations of that assembly whieh
were circulated through hundreds of thousands of the people 0
England and Ireland, and which contained such expressions ass
" the awful perjury of the Catholic Bishops of Ireland," and'
" the repeal of the fatal Emancipation Act ?"—( Hear, hear.)
He regretted that some Englishmen lent themselves to such
disgraceful proceedings, and participated by their presence and
approbation in such heinous slander of their fellow-subjects.
'The appointments in Ireland of the present Government had
been most objectionable. Chief Justice Pennefather, one of
these appointments, had lately distinguished himself by what
was aptly termed a speech to evidence. An Irish barrister,
who was not at all interested in the fate of the traverserss
described the charge as " a speech to evidence," and as being
still more exceptionable in its manner of delivery than
in its matter. He said there never was a more disgraceful
exhibition at the Irish bar. This same Chief Justice Penne-
father had, in charging a jury, a short time ago, in a prosecu-
tion for libel against the editor of a Dublin newspaper, actually
told the ju'y that what they were about to try was a most dia-
bolical libel. Then, as regarded the appointments of Baron
Lefroy, and Mr. Justice Jackson, they, trio, were highly excep-
tionable. Why, the Duke of Northumberland would not let
Sergeant Lefroy go on circuit on account of his violent politics;
and the appointment of Sergeant Jackson was equally objec-
tionable, for the same reasons. He did not deny that both
were very upright, honourable men, but they were totally unfit
for the situations they now filled. The dismissal of the ma-
gistracy was a most unwise step, particularly the dismissal of
the stipendiary magistrates, in whom the people justly placed
confidence.—( Hear, hear.) But what could he say to the
State trials, a packed jury, a pistol Attorney-Ge-
neral, and a Judge Jeffreys, as an Englishman had wittily
remarked to him (Sir H. W. Barron) ? He asked, in
the name of the people of Ireland, and in the name of every-
thing sacred and dear to man, that that people might be go•
verned on principles of equity, impartiality, and justice, and
that the present system of ascendancy and misgovernment
might cease for ever.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. W. REPTON opposed the motion of the Noble Lord,
and thought that the Government had acted wisely regarding
the Irish State prosecutions. He would not detain the House
longer than to say one word with respect to the Catholie priest-
hood. He was a sincere member of the Church of England?
but he thought that any attempt to oppose the Catholic clergY
would be insane, for it would create an agitation more for-
midable than that which had just been put down.—( Hear.)
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that in the whole coutv 1
of this debate, which involved so much the character of the
Government, the House had heard no expression of opinion orn
the part of any member of the Government connected with.,
Ireland, except a Lord of the Irish Treasury (Mr. Young).
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Secretary for the Horne
Department, indeed, had declared his views with respect to the
future government of Ireland. He had spoken out. He had
told them that lie was determined to govern that country in &
constitutional manner, but that it had always been occupied by
force, and must be governed by force. So far as Ireland was
concerned the " dodging" system was given up, and the
Liberal party would know how to act. He hoped the Irish
Liberals would unite with those of this country, and no longer
divide their strength.—( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet plainly told his intentions about Ireland, but he said Ile'
thing of his views respecting the commercial policy of England.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had not used the wo,d6
that Ireland should he governed by force.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL—If the Right Hon. Gentleman
did not say so in precisely these words he said so substantiallye
He said it was absolutely necessary to maintain the Established
Church, and lie was determined to do so. Now, surely that was
anintimation of his determination to rule by force, for the
Established Church could not be maintained otherwise than
by force.—(Cries of " No, no, no," from the Ministerial
benches.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone further,
he did say that Ireland had alwas been occupied by force, and
if he (Mr. O'Ferrall) had not remembered exactly the words
which followed, their meaning was certainly to the effect, that
the Government must he maintained by force. Force was ne-
cessary to maintain the Established Church in its present fall
position. No one could deny that the ministers of that Chloe',
interfered very materially with secular affairs.—( Hear, hear.)
He had known cases in which clergymen had recommended 0'
the landlords that they should get rid of their Catholic tenant'
and fill up their places with Protestants—( Hear, hear)--an
there was, therefore, a strong feeling among the peasantry in
that country, that they should be dispossessed of their farms t°
make room for Protestants. The clergy placed them'
selves in an anomalous state, and he believed that
the half secular, half religious, character of the Church
was the great cause of the excited state 'of that con"
try. Now let the House consider what was the effect of the
with respect to the certificates ? If he (Mr. More
law O'Fer-
rall) had occasion to prove, in a court ofjustice, that he was s
Christian, a certificate of baptism from a Roman Catholic..
priest would not be legal evidence ; and the same rule apOht`
to the certificates of marriage.—( Hear, hear, hear.) So wi of
respect to the registration of wills, no matter in what part
the country a man may live, he •must register his will in the
diocesan courts, and everybody knew in what way the huh;
siness of those courts was neglected. Now, this was a Ifitre;',
secular matter, and there was no occasion whatever .(.'"
the clergy to interfere in it, as there was already an establish'
mcnt for registration in Dublin, which worked very well.'d
( Hear, hear.) He thought that the Liberal party in Irelan
ought to unite with the English Liberals, upon such a Vera
tion as the repeal of the union. He never did, and never would
conceal his opinions upon that question. But this he wuu
say, that the result of the union must be this, that England
must be lowered to the condition of Ireland, er Ireland raqto
to the condition of England.—(Hear.) The condition of I 0
people of this country was much worse since the union, and,wstt
becoming worse from year to year. The emigration, of iiria
labourers into this country had increased from year to yer, the
was increasing; and if something was not done to raise lia i
Irish from their present poverty, the degradation of the Eng, t
labourer would go on increasing. He said this to show that,e,
was not Irishmen alone, but every man in that 11°‘1?1,0"
and every man in England, was interested in
proving the condition of the Irish people—(Cheers/,
Gentleman opposite cheered, as if they agreed in that oPila°,-r
—(Cheers.) If they did so, why, then, not take the
steps to effect it ?—( Hear, hear.) It might be prejudiebeey
and to a great extent he admitted it was—to think that te of
were not disposed to do so. But the measures they sltears
adopting were but little calculated for the purpose.— ( Gra.
hear.) Certainly the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sr Jame,
,;70,g
ham) proposed to give the Catholics the power of endo_ ca,
their own Church, but it was to be borne in mind that tili.hor
tholics had already, and richly endowed their Church. .!_htef
had built churches in every parish. They had establitlieir
throughout the country rich ecclesiastical foundations, but nto
churches and church lands were taken from them and gi!netl,
the Protestant clergy ; and in many of those churches, to
most extensive parishes, no service was at this day celenretoa
by the clergy who possessed them. Now, what securitYlv e„ of
the Catholics of Ireland have that if they availed theill'ee"tes'
the proposed law a similar plunder mightnot again be Perrioeelt
ted ? The Right Hon. Gentleman also promised to intro6ifer
measure for the better registration of voters, but he (Mr' bat it
rall);would not say anything of its merits until he knew "'Bight'
was. But he understood, from a newspaper report, that the
top-
Hun. Baronet had said to a friend of his that the enoter-
lased division of the counties would strengthen the 'rola
est.—(Cheers and laughter.) It had been complain bate
the subject of the late State Trials ought not t?i, visa
been introduced in this discussion ; but he thought thet.,,,ratioe
not possible to have omitted it in the coo beet'
of his Noble Friend's motion. Now, what hat was
the effect of those trials upon public opinion ? I%e ar
the opinion of the public as to the constitution of th re
Catholics were rejected, and it was said that they w,ej: they
jetted, not because they were Catholics, but beeltr., were
were Repealers ; but the fact proved otherwise, for they 0
not Repealers.—( Hear, hear. ) Yet if they had he'';'l;aseu:
that society, why were the members of the society in d veri
street not objected to, when it was known that they
strong feelings against the accused? To this it had beg JOY
swered, that it was difficult to get an imparLia
in Ireland. But that ought to have he en
sidered, by those who asserted it, a good,beaches:4
for having no trial at all.—(" Oh, oh," from the Tor oulds7,
What, these'', had been the case ?—(Hear, hear.) if he
man believe that it had been a fair conviction ? 001c1 Otie
O'Ferrall) thought that it was a fair conviction, he t had taa
honestly owned it in that House. The trial had n° if it h..,
effect that it was intended, and ought to have had. sets wove
been shown to the people of Ireland that the travecrouid hall
tried in a fair and satisfactory way, the conviction,' ,t It ce
produced an immense moral effect, but the only enF:trationthe
now have would be to create distrust in the admini
l that,-
the law, and the universal belief of the Peq te o ens 019
proceedings were all unfair from beginning Carta,o
( Hear, hear.) There was a strong fee"nEopenca 0
he
that the accident which happened to the jury list ; beet.
purpose. He did not think so, nor did he saY'_d been the
would say that great and culpable negligence ha oak °f oar
hibited.-e--( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to 'Pthat, iere
.Attorney-General in his absence, but he would saY ef ble"‘00,
the beginning to the end, there had been a o'teinia sucilDeeee
trig highly discreditable. There was nothing alarela itie,
duct of law proceedings in Ireland. There h ".„ author taa
an indisposion on the part of the judges and the lair courl6,
- •So he
of the Crown to apply to the practice of the 50.,,tl
principle of justice and good sense which prevaln. ip
ministration of the Criminal law in EnglantogeshiP
to
English lawyer was appointed to a oraetleed dig
Ireland. He found that it was the juries fon°
toy
the Criminal Courts there that the grand oat Oa the
bills of indictment upon written evidence and s
trated 01'
Eng
trig the witnesses.—( Hear, hear.) He rentwied the - 165-
subject with his brother judges, and recommend But she_ for
practice of examining viva voce before the jury-any chant $o
so
judges replied that there was no necessity for hoer
the Irish mode was good enough for Ireland..—.(:'n
the practice continued to the year 1816,_!cut and Ote/itten
proposed a Committee to inquire into the sulatees'—on 11,1; in
ported that the practice was to find indictment
ofur ,e 0
evidence in all cases excepting tha was cotut th 9,
which the unfortunate female who was injuredal to oeefeositisa
to go before the jury ; and he brought in 15“
tO fro
law in that respect, and to require the indictOw..."...no,ttloPi.y fro!:
upon examination. But he met the greatestan euneeio
uto
all the authorities connected with Ireland,
Horst ration
bre ;ad
alter 6„d
the juries. However, the nezt year Mr.
his law, and in Committee there was only :?"°__iria the, itittre"
in it, by the introduction of a clause !..1.1:
er,'7.tsre' iaeo
ut the
dnced by Lord Castlereagh, but
upon written evidence in some casest.
worst clause in the Bill, and that they musstire.tf, Latigsr.o
wasih spate.. it veal
fish
House of Lords by Lord I- llenborough, who saniod.tit, the .„ra.l6)
gentlemen so much rope as they would desire'
u'dgeise 13,2",igea
Ile also introduced a clause directing that t.ttec4,,, coed
t
Act said, that tide' lie
explain this
othrbisurßyi,llintoexthpeougnrdaiTgl jtuhreiesA. c c. cro,r,o;:sh.e.'„ Tar baed,
to Ireland in attacking the reputatio I,uo,hte 10 Ir.
Injury
compelling jurors to examine witnesses.—(L'"
practicebad
mentioned this to show that it was not a new TheY,,lan
land to interpret the law against the prisonears; ,_„, in P,7., the
admission; of one of the judges that what svi
..la Theyf ;00.0
in favour of the accused, was not law in Ireand
the Chic had °l'll
severity—almost the animosity with which they mi
addressed the jury.—( Hear, hear, hear.) of the :-.rough
O'
seen another difference between the practictil were tile°
courts and that of the Irish. If two llnne,"
one of
ins
before a magistrate in England, aonould be d
dared to challenge the other, he .remernbert.:,,,rt
y°9
diately committed to prison. He din the offaa,lo,
case of a gentleman who, being examined A cell be feur
Queen's Bench here, in what he conceived box:.
antimaner, as soon as lie was dismissed fro
_ts'el. an
..operlf:
" ree-cornered note" to the offending COO very 1..,h0re •
hours he was sent to Newgate—(llear)
aHear-)'''
However, that was not the case in Ireland—(

cootie
of the
ion opt

lemon'
)lishei
at was
Dr the
e that,
isteriel
other,
and
woros
t, that
,as oa-
It falai
lurch
hear,,
(led
enao°
)--aott
try it,
rras to
thew
that