The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-04 00:00:00

to the endowment of what he called religious error • but
he would ask the Right Hon. Baionet who was to be the
judge of what was religious truth? Was that House to
go into Committee, to discover what was and what was
not religious truth ?—(Laughter.) But the Treasury
had no religious persuasion at all, and the question,
-after all, was not whether there should be a Roman
Catholic prieAhood in Ireland, but whether they should
be had or good—literate or illiterate—clergymen or,de-
magogues. But where was the sum to support these
clergymen to come from ? He could not conceal from
him ,elf that the resobition of the Right lion. Baronet op-
poAte would Wtimately lead t:) the endowment of the
Roman Catholic Church ; and he was not prepared to
take so large a sum film taxes, which were principally
open the'English pei_ple. But were there no other funds
from which the money could be taken? He would put
it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Ec-
' clesiastioal Commissioners, wit) were acting under the
Church Temporalities Act, had not had a great deal more
money in their hand than they well knew what to
do e, jai ? He very moth regretted the lion. Member for
Sheffield had not, on that occasion, brought forward his
motion for abolishing the Establi ,hcd Church in Ire-
land, because he was convinced, until they put an end to
that Establishment, the question relating to Irish griev-
ances would not be set at rest. When he first entered

It was perfectly understood that the College was to be
eqablished and supported by the voluntary .contribu-
tions of the Roman Catholic body, and on the present
3d of April there was no compact, statute or implied, or
existing even iu feeling, that support should be de-
rived from Government. On the 29th April, 1808, a
statement had been made by Sir Arthur Wellesley, at
eat time Secretary of the Irish Government, that the
ellege of Maynooth was not to be supported from the
public purse. Now, if a flea were to he male that this
grant was necessary, in order that the peace of society
*eight be better secured, lie (Sir R. Inglis) would ask,
what was the state cif seciety in 1794 and 1795, and the
state of the Church of Rome, as compared with the pre-
sent time ? The experience of any man acquainted
with public affairs would reply to the cries-
tiintlli that it was expected that the Raman
r
aelholie Church was to be sunperied at its own expense.
This was evident from the memorial of the Boman
Catholic Archhi.hop, presented to Parliament on the
4th of April, 1794, in %%Inch he hid expressly declared
that if permissien was granted to erect the Colloge of
Maynooth, the nit iniers of the Roman Catholic (birch
I's!c prepared to support it from their own funds. His
Right Hen. Friend at the head of the Government had
referred to the opinion expressed by an illustrious states-
men in the course of his speech, to whom he could
never refer without bearing his (Sir Robert
Inglis's) testimony, and who had exhibited a consis-
tency of conduct and principle well worthy of the great
interests he was called upon to direct, but it should be
recollected that that great statesman had not originated
this grant, for it remained during his time just as it had
been previously conferred. It mattered not whether it
Was 8,0001., or any other sum ; he could say fer himself,
and he believed he might assert for 'hose friends who
acted with him, that it was perfectly immaterial whether
the sum voted was B,OOOL. or double that amount, or half
that amount; what they objected to was, any endowment
at all fur the Church of Rome. He believed that they
would, none of them, be accused of want of toleration for
refusing to be parties to this grant and he did not despair
in the hope that there e ould be found a majority in
that House who would represent the majority of the
people of England—(Hear)—and if his Right
on. Friend was disposcd to neglect the opinion of that
Majority, he would beg to remind him, from the in-
fittehee of public opinion on the education clause which
her Majesty's Government had propounded some four
or five years ago, on the discussion of that measure,
and to beg them to calculate what would be the* effect
of the expression of that same public opinion on the
present measure, for he had sufficient confidence in his
countrymen to believe, that if even a majority of this
House were to confirm the grant which had been pro-
posed by his Right Hon. Friend, that it would be vir-
tually nullified by the opposition which it would en-
counter in the feelings and convictions of the country.
If the opinion of Mr. Grattan were to be referred to, it
was plain that that opinion was in opposition to the
principles of this grant to Maynooth, for he believed
• that it would promote anything but order and peace. In
the discussion five years ago the Hon. Member for Dun-
garvon (Mr. Shell), in speaking 'on this question, had
expressed his opinion as being hostile to this grant; and
Lord Morpeth, then Secretary for Ireland, who on that
occasion came down to the House with the Irish sta-
tutes in his hand, had created a sensation from which the
House did not recover so soon as he thought it ought
to have done; but he was surprised that
*the inti-
mations of that Noble Lord had not been acted upon.
What was the language of the Act to which the Hon.
and Learned Member had made reference ? He (Air R.
Inglis) believed that it would not bear the construction
put upon it by the Hon. and Learned Member. It was
the foundation on which his Right Hon. Friend had en-
deavoured to build the argument he had advanced that
evening. How ran the Act of the 35th George 111. ? It
ran thus :—" Whereas by law, as now enforced, it is
not lawful to endow any college or seminary for the edu-
cation of Roman Catholic persons, be it therefore
enacted," and so forth. Then it went on—" The trustees
named in the Act and their successors will have power
and authority"--Did the House think it was to demand
an annual grant from a Protestant country ?—" to re-
"il'e teatiscriptions and donations, to enable them to
establish and endow an academy." Did this em
power them to a k support fur their College
at the expense of the nation ?—(Hear.) When
the Roman Catholics of Ireland asked in the year 1794
or 1795 for only one seminary to educate their priest-
lincd, they asked as much as the Parliament of that year
wnuiel grant, and more than the Irish Parliament of a
few years before would have even entertained. So far
were the Roman Catholics of that day from maintaining
that they were entitled to support from Government,
that they were even contented with the permissicn to
apply subscriptions and donations to the purposes of
education. In the construction of en Aet of Parlia-
ment the intentions of the parties making it should be
considered, and he was sure that the promoters of that
Act never intended to lay down the principle
that the support of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood should be binding on the country.—(Hear.)
He contended that the pledge given at the Act or Union
that 8,0001. should be given to this College for twenty
years had been fully redeemed. He was opposed to
further concessions on this subject, for the experience of
the last twenty years proved that when concessions were
made by Parliament its power was just so much
weakened.—(Hear, hear.) In the same degree that they
endowed the Roman Catholics they withdrew their
support from the Protestant institutions of the country.
It was alleged that the proposition of the Government
would have the effect of conciliating Mr. O'Connell and
113 Party. But how could that be ? In 1831 Mr. O'Con-
nellt said that the grant ought to be 70,0001., but that he
6atilol
noti:are whether it was abandoned altogether, as the
clergy would still be educated without Govern-
-11.31,ent aid..—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that he had not
zDaded altogether in proving that the proposed measure,
I' it could be defended at all, was not to be defended on
the ground of any compact, either by Act of
Parliament or by unbroken usage. If it could
be defended at all, it was only on the ground of expedi-
eney—a word for which he had no particular favour—
and which was justified only when considered with a
view to correct principle.—(Hear, hear.) But he thought
that, even on the ground of expediency, the Ministers
would signally fail. He thought that the Catholics
were as well able to maintain the education of their
priests as the Dissenters of this country ; and he could
not recognise any claim of theirs to pre-eminence in this
matter. Sarely the education by the State of a body of
Men whole conscientious desire it must be to root out
the Protestant, or State Church (as he would call it), as
a nuisance in the sight of men, and a serious evil in the
sight of God, was as great folly on the part of the State
as that of the Dutch who sold gunpowder to their own
- besiegers. He did not suppose that the Ministers were
actuated in bringing forward this measure by any other
motive than a wish to do what was right between all
parties.—(l-lear, hear.) But he hoped his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government would believe
i that he spoke in the most inoffensive spirit
when he said that it was to be regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet had not earlier made known
to the House and the country what his views were upon
this question.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted that the
Right Hon. Baronet did not state those views in 1840.--
(Cheers) For his own part, he (Sir R. Inglis) was not
ashamed to say that he took his stand on Protestant
Christianity—(Hear, hear)—that had been the Consti
tution of this country for three hundred years—and
although the vessel had, of late, been much tossed and
shattered, yet there was still a Protestant feeling at the
mast head, and as long as one plank remained, he, for
one, would nail to the mast that flag of Protestant Chris-
tianity which, in better times, had waved over the whole
empire.—(Cheers.) He thanked the 'Luse for the
I patience with which he had been heard, and concluded
by moving a negative on the question, in the terms of
the notice which he had placed in the hands of the
Chairman.—',The Right Hon. Baronet was muc
cheered at the conclusion of his speech, and immedi-
ately after his resuming his seat, ,Members in great
numbers left the House.)
Capt B. OSIT HINE, alto was for some minutes in-
audible Irons the noise of' Members 1 eying the House,
said, that for three hundred years the Government of
this country had been endeavouring to root out the
Catholic religion from Ireland, but without success.
That, religion had survived and flourished when every-
thing around it had been destroyed, He thought the
present Governmentould
notm
was righta e lt changing the policy ;
and as they e
seven millions of people
Protestants, they should try to make them goodl,.n s
Ca-
tholics.—(Hear.) There was one fact
which
sufficiently known in this country—that every pulpit notn
Aleynooth was required to be provided with a Bible ;
and, from the paltry allowance, the College had given
away last year 300 Bibles.—(Hear, hear.) The bishops
had also expunged, from the notes to the Catholic ver-
sion, every passage which was considered offensive to
their Protestant fellow- countrymen.--(E1 ear hear Ile
was not at all surprised that the opposition 'to this)
mea-
sure arose from those who were the most ready to rail
at the Roman Catholic priesthood for their want of eta-
: cation. (Hear, hear.) A short time ago an Irish Lord,
1
i
weer of Parliament, published a letter in the Evening
Nail, relating to the controversy which be had
respecting the shutting up of a path to a chapel.
In that letter the Noble Lcrd, the Marquis of West-
meath, was witty upon the bad spelling of the parish
Priest, and designated the Roman, Catholic priesthood
63 " ema lated vermin', and ' amphibious creatures,"
who put their " unwashed feet upon the necks of the
toor, unhappy, and much to be commiserated people."
.was surprised he had heard nothing of the low
Itnunognr iof these priests, but he could tell the House that
Oman Catholics prided themselves upon raising their
Clergy from the lowest classes. In the middle ages the
higher class
offices of state,e amnodniotpolised all the higher stations and
was through the instrumentality of
the Rornish hurch alone that democratic principles
could find any outlet, and had it not been for this
alstein Luther himself w
would have remained a farmer-
Peasant. He hoped, therefore, he should hear no
more of the low origin of the priesthood.
Prussia boasted of a Protestant population, and the
Icing himself was a Protestant In 1815 the Rhenish
States, whose inhabitants were Roman Catholics, were
1 • joined to Prussia
,whath was the first-step Prussia
took after this unionand :
Ca-
tholic College, and to place y'
to
themselvesfound a Romir.
iin communication
with the Pope ? In 1821 the Pope issued his bull, by
which he empowered the Prussian Crown to confer with
I 4 the clergy in the election of Roman Catholic bishops ;
and now a
t
and the corresndence between the clergy-
Pope annually took.
place, under the'
superintendence of the C
answered in Prussia, Ar.d, if this system
why, he ask, should it not
esuhtcscseeesd
of o
here? It appeared to him that there were two
ppcoteincents to this measure. Soma lion.,
.Members objected to making any provision whatever..
while others,j . like the Right Hon. Baronet the Membee
fur Oxford, who thought they had an exclusive monou ,ly
of the truth, and therefore they objected to what 'my
called the endowment of error. With reference tse, the
first class, he differed with them; but he had some: duffle
cultirty,,,i:
.meeting the objection of the Right Hote."Bertanct
L 04 mber for Oxford. The Right Hen. Baruiet obikoted

object was uppermost with the Right Hon. Gentleman. of their revenues, and then by way of reprisal th by
—(Hear, hear.) As in the Dissenters' Bill•he had but took it out of the pockets of the English people,
one object,' so in this measure he had but one object— and yet the Noble Lord called this restitution.
the interest of both countries.—(Cheers.) And he When they looked to the sum of money which the
trusted that, as he would in return meet the thankfulness people of England had paid to the landholders of Ire-,
of the one, so in future tranquillity, when clamour passed land—when they looked to, the millions of money paid
away, he would meet with honourable appreciation to the tithe owners, he could not allow them further to
from the others --(Loud cheers.) He attached great put their' handsiato the pockets of the people of England
value to the measure for many reasons—not only —he could not consent to this vote.
on account of the liberality of the largess con- Lord ARUNDEL expressed his gratitude as a Ca-
ferred, but also because it substituted a perma- tholic of England for the measure of the Right Hon.
nett legislative endowment for an annual Par- Baronet.
liamentary donation, and thus avoided what all Mr. GROGAN opposed the measure of the Right
concurred in considering was desirable to avoid—the Hon. Baronet.
periodical recurrence of theological disputation.—(Hear, The Committee then divided, when the numbers
hear.) This would give, to use an Irish phrase, " fixity were—
of tenure to Maynooth," and he would state his opinion, For the resolution 216
as reference had been made to the ulterior measures that Against it
might be in contemplation by the Right Hon. Gentle- Majority for Ministers — 102 _
man, at the hazard of occasioning dissertation and The resolution was reported, and the following Bill
criticism in Ireland—that, though they mightamend two Acts passed in Ireland fir the better
attempt to take the Roman Catholic clergy under their education of persons professing the Roman Catholic re-
care, they ought to take the Catholic worship under ligion, and for the better government of the College esta-
their protection.—(Cheers.) He thought that an blished at Maynooth for the education of such persons,
honourable distinction. without any degradation to any and also an Act passed in the Parliament of the United
party, between the Church and State could be effecte'd Kingdom for amending the said two Acts," was read a
—aty,
relation• in return for which they should first time, and ordered to be read a second time on
expect, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy, Friday, the 1 lth of April.
no ignominious complaisance.—(Hear, hear.) He was The House then resumed.
satisfied that the Roman Cathelic clergy would reject Captain PECHELL moved for copies of several re-
any stipend periodically paid at the Castle, at the plea- ports relating to the late trial cruises of her Majesty's
sure of the Government—(Hear, hear.); but there could ships Queen, Caledonia, St. Vincent, Camper down,
be no objection raised against building Roman Catholic Albion,Espiegle, Daring, Flying Fish, Mutine, Water-
places of worship, and glebe houses for the Roman Ca- witch, rantaloen, Osprey, and Cruiser.—Agreed to.
tholic clergy, without requiring from them any condi- Mr. E. ELLICE moved for a Select Committee to ins
tions for the favours conferred upon them, thus making quire into the practical operation of the Acts 2 and 3
them independent, giving them a true conservative Vic., c. 42, 5 and 6 Vic., c. 67, and 7 and-8 Vic., C. 34, so
interest—he used the word in its general etymology far as the regulation of assessmentin ocUtratiesand burghs
—in maintaining the institutions of the country, is concerned.
and they would reap the benefit, of the result.— Mr. HAWES said he hoped the Lord-Advocate would
(Loud cheers.) He would not go into the history of attend in his place to-morrow, as it wits his intention to
the origin of the grant to Maynooth ; but every ask him a question with regard to the manner in which
person know that Edmund Burke, to whom a clause, of an unusual description, was carried in the
his Honourable Friend behind him had alluded, Scotch Consolidation Bill.
was the man who suggested that Maynooth should be The LORD-ADVOCATE intimated his intention of
established.—(Hear. hear.) He saw that French prin- doing so.
ciples and French morals should not be amongst the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
imparts of Ireland. He perceived that a French educe- that the Bill relating to the Excise auction duties be
Lion and a French fraternisation would be the con- read on Monday, when he would bring forward a mo-
ductors between France, and the Gallo-Hibernian Lion for the repeal of those duties.
establishment in Ireland would not be for the benefit of The House then adjourned at twenty minutes to Two
the State.—(Cheers.) That was the origin of Maynootb, o'clock.
and the Right Hon. Baronet was only carrying out the
principle of Edmund Burke. It was said that the mo-
dern Catholic priest was inferior to the old one ; but
Farquhar, the Irish dramatist, who was well acquainted
with his countrymen, drew a portrait of one, in
which the peculiarity of the Irish priest was drawn. It
should be recollected that the Irish priest was strug-
gling for Catholic emancipation against tithes, for mu-
nicipal reform, -for the Registration Bill—for God's
sake let them have the Registration Bill in the spirit
in which this measure was enacted, if they wanted it
to be final.—(Cheers.) Let them give an interest—
an interest he would say to the Roman Catholic clergy,
and a perfect reconcilement would take place.—(Hear.)
So much had been said about a contract, and its exist-
ence was demonstrated with so much clearness, that it
was hardly necessary for him to say a word upon the
subject.—(Hear.) The Learned Recorder for London
had indeed denied it—but his Court was not
a Court of equity, and though he spoke against the
Ministers, he accompanied his observation with a recom-
mendation for mercy. But this was a measure which
was not to be viewed in a small forensic, or scholastic
spirit, but in a spirit of equity and justice. What was
the objection to it? 9,0001. was already annually de-
voted to the purpose. The country had already under-
gone great change since this grant was made, and in
considering the policy of the measure before the House
they should recollect that &great metamorphose had taken
place, and that no country had, in so short a
time, undergone so great a change, social, moral,
and political. When Maynooth was founded there
were only three millions of Catholics, now there were
seven. When Maynooth was founded there were only
two Catholics at the bar, now there had been a Cathelic
Chief Baron, a Catholic Master of the Rolls, and four
Catholic Attorneys-General. When Maynooth was
founded there was no Catholic member of any corpora-
tion, now Catholics had a preponderance in corporate
bodies. When Maynooth was founded few Roman Ca-
tholics were educated, now the great bulk of the people
were receiving education. And when men were taught
to read, and write, and count, they would soon learn to
think ; and if the whole body of the people were on the
advance, ought the Catholic clergy to remain stationary?
A great revolution was taking place, and with it the
great Catholic Church must be carried on. Will this
measure benefit you ? Yes, because it will benefit us ;
for whatever benefits you confer upon us, you will reap
the benefits of. An establishment would be founded
where genius would be allured by legitimate remunera-
tion, and all those odious habits which parsimony caused
at Maynooth, would be done away with. If they edu-
cated the priesthood in a proper manner, and placed in
every district a gentleman in mind, as well as a scholar
in education, whose disposition had undergone a process
of refinement, they would do much for the country. The
objects of .this measure had been gone through, and its
utility demonstrated. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Recorder for London had talked about the profanity of
educating laymen and clergymen in the same seminary.
He differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman. In every
country on the continent the Roman Catholic clergy
were educated in ecclesiastical seminaries quite distinct
from the laity. Their ascetic habits—their habits of su-
bordination—their absence of all sensual indulgence,
indispensable to the formation of the Catholic priest,
could not be had in a mixed seminary of this sort. In
Trinity College, Dublin, he was satisfied at least that
four years out of the time of the course was not passed
in a manner the best adapted as a preparation
for the confessional. The priesthood of Ireland
were now moral. This could not be denied. They
were not only pure, but unsuspected. Some peo-
ple said that Maynooth presented nothing but rusticity,
where every individual brought his quota of contamt•
nation. That was a mistake. He did not wish to see
the sons of the Catholic aristocracy entering the
Church. The duties of the Irish priesthood were such,
that men trained in habits of luxury would not be very
fit to perform them; and besides, they should remember
that some of the greatest ornaments of the Church were
men humbly born, Nature, as well as fortune, conferred
a nobility. Before the Reformation the mighty plebeians
stood up, and in the preeence of the Normaheers.) n Conqueror Was
,
with the crozier turned as: the lance.—(C
not that a circumstance that redounded great credit to
the Protestant Church, that men of the humblest birth
might be raised to the bench of Ilishopos and takeia,eytakin
a seat in the House of Lords-4 ,W
f
precedence of an Earl Marshal o England.
With respect to the eost, there was great econee.7ty—great
housewifery. They did not complain of the expanse of
the State prosecutions, nor of the expente of maintaining
a great military force there or a large constabulary.
They should educate a moral police, of which they would
soon find the benefit. Something had been said about
idolatry. It was inconsistent with their consciences to
propagate an untruth, but was it inconsistent with their
consciences to make an annual grant for the
maintenance of Catholicity in the colonies?—(Flear.)
26,000/. in the estimation of those Gentlemen was a venial
sin, but 9,000/, for Maynooth was a mortal sin.—
(Laughter.) Such Wile the casuistry of Kent.—(Re-
newed laughter.) When they saw the Catholic religion
subsisting as it had done since the establishment of Chris
tianity, resuscitated in countries where it was supposed
to be extinete traversing the .whole world, immortal and
immutable, it o'o net with feelings of resentment, but
with feelings of love that lie had listened to the speech of
the lion. Member fur Kent. There was no reason for
these attacks on the Catholics. He would not enter into
ho
any argument with those baneful allies of darkness, w
with that horrid sophistication which rendered men
the plague among their species, because the
mies OF htiman hope, the obliterators of light, and
the messenger's of despair. The Roman Catholic
Church had been represented as a failure complet, but he
would eseerts for the honour of that Church, that its
mighty inffdefee had for Ages been
wouldactively at work in
the amelioration or tfiatiners, the exaltation of intellect,
and the promotion of that refitting principle which freed
mankind from the debasing inflate:9 of this lower earth,
and !eft them to follow the natural elevation ofthothelic
ir
higher Mitt-Ise In this respect, at least, the Ca
Church had borne salutary fruit. Was there any rnhaagtnd
who dared to say that the condition of the t 3 C.ll 7
not been improved by the exertitthe of the Ittihad
Catholic priesthood? With these facts Woe them, be
did not think that any Government had the tiglrt to
greund public legislation on the convictions for persotail
theology, and he believed that to act upon this prin-
ciple would be to degrade these lofty maxims of policy
on which an empire like this ought to be governed. If
they would look at the position in which the eo:iinthry
Ives eased, they would find a sufficient answer to ?l e
e
objections *lair','osiu t
h had been urged in the consideratioonn
of
this question, and so great did he deem the ph
the Prime Minister of England, that be thoughtbet ll
daisre-
that was little and insignificant mi
hell
and
hguagtdhetdihanehdtenrothinintog buthis wehoahtteh
butisla dl look t
iagtu
othhse was
p great.agtht
wouldlarge
whthicehy
teheoyulwdousledefianidi
hoefyw others,oul d
natttre—a country whose history. a
tontrilitelisrhoweinn,piirne
every principle developed which was engnofhollilngoftodheeudmsaonf
P-ale.hosirt
lfloofdts
shpereoincsamr, annuelnudee,teGrrnriantteada,paianwdei
whose names would live while the world endured. They
would see a country filled with chivalrous men, whose
heart beat with sympathies as deep, as generous, as
active as their own. They would see a country rich in
tesottrees and teeming with fertility, and whose manifold
adaantages must prove of inestimable advantage to the
ittetas empire. They would see such a spectacle as
would eleaste their ideas of all that was great
and exalted, and the aspirations of which
were worthy respect, if ever anything was worthy of
consideration and respect. He would there assert
that the policy of Government ought not to be
directed by titreenal religious predilection. Let Eng-
land do justice to Ireland, and Ireland would have is
appreciate the justice of England, and he trusted that
the great Minister who had brought in this measure of
kindness and conciliation might turn with a disdainful
smile from those who professed to found all their appro-
bation on motives of mere political expediency. Let not
the maxims of Government be founded on the principles of
a small philosophy, and he would advise the Right lion.
Baronet to fling the seals of office to the winds, rather
than not proceed in the path of honour and justice to
that hourne which was the consummation of his bright-
est hopes—(Loud cheering.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he should oppose this
grant on three grounds—first, on its permanency ; se-
cond, on the sources from whence it was to be
derived ; and third, the purpose., to which it was to le-
applied. On the same principle that ho had opts'
church rates, should be vote against this
Tjiey first of till plundered the Irish Row

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House Qf Commons.)
THURSDAY, APRIL 3.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.—(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
Motion made, and Question put, " That the Chairman be directed
to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend
the Acts relating to the Coilege of Maynooth. The Committee
divided :