The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

ATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, 1844.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, March 1.
The Earl of SHAFTEISBURY, in the absence of the
Lord Chancellor, took his seat upon the Woolsack
shortly before Five o'Clock.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Messengers from the Commons brought up certain
Bills.
LANDLORD AND TENANT COMMISSION.
Lord MONTEAGLE, seeing his Noble Friend in his
place, wished to put a question to him on a subject in
which the public at large, and more especially the Irish
public, felt a deep interest. In putting this question, he
begged to state that he entertained no distrust of his
Noble Friend. He believed that his Noble Friend was
most diligent in the discharge of the public duty with
which he had been entrusted ; but the public were
looking with the utmost anxiety towards the Landlord
and Tenant Commission in Ireland, and he wished to
ask his Noble Friend if he could inform the House when
it would be likely that the public would be put in pos-
session of the results of their labours.
The Earl of DEVON had no difficulty in an-
swering the question • and he was glad that an oppor-
tunity had been afforded him of stating why it was
that he was present then at that moment, instead
of being in Ireland. It so happened that he had
made arrangements to go to Dublin for the purpose of
collecting further evidence, and had intended being in
Ireland at the present time ; but a few days since he
had received a subpoena from the Court of Queen's Bench,
commanding him to attend as a witness in a criminal case,
at the next Devonshire assizes. He had endeavoured
to get the evidence which he should have to give, made
matter of admission, but the defendant appeared to
consider it essential to the case that he (the Earl of
Devon) should be examined, and he was afraid that
he should be detained in England until the trial was
over. His absence, however, would not interrupt the
labours of the Commission. His colleagues wore
empowered to proceed with the inquiry during
his absence, and they had consented to do so;
therefore, no delay would take place in con-
sequence of his detention in England. He was
not sorry that he had the opportunity or stating
that he was not idly or unnecessarily neglecting his
public duty. It was generally supposed, although the
supposition was incorrect, that the only busi-
ness of the Commission was to collect evidence.
That was a most important part of the duty,
no doubt ; but any person who took upon them-
selves the responsibility of offering suggestions as to
any proposed change in the existing law, should make
themselves acquainted with that law • and therefore a not
unimportant part of the duties of the Commission was
to digest the information on the subject of the rela-
tions between landlord and tenant, which was already
accessible to the public. He could assure their Lord-
ships that the taking of evidence was not the only
labour that devolved on the Commission ; and lie
also begged to assure them that the labours of the Com-
mission would be prosecuted with as little delay as pos-
sible.

above named Frederick Bond Hughes, Charles Ross, and
John Jackson, with respect to the duties to be per-
formed by them in Ireland. Also, a return . of the
amount paid to the above-named for expenses during
their attendance at the trial of the Queen against
O'Connell and others. Also, a return of all moneys paid
to the late or present proprietor or proprietors, mana-
gers, conductors, or persons in the employ of the Morn-
ing Herald and Standard newspapers, or any of them, on
account of communications or information made or
given by the said parties, or any of them, to the Govern-
ment, in reference to the repeal agitation in Ireland;
distinguishing the times at which the said communica-
tions or informations were furnished, and the period at
which the several sums of money were paid. Also, the
name or names of the shorthand writers appointed
to furnish the Government report of the proceedings
at the trial of the Queen against O'Connell and others."
die said, in rising to call the attention of the House to the
motion of which he had given notice, he did not wish to
obstruct the motion of the Hon. Member for Rochdale,
nor to delay the House from going into the Committee of
Supply. He rose in the exercise of the undoubted right
every Member of that House possessed, of calling on the
Government, before voting any additional supplies, to
explain the manner in which it had already applied any of
those sums of money that had been placed at the disposal
of the Government, for the purposes of the public service.
More especially was it the duty of that House to look
into these matters when there was good reason to believe
that the sums already voted had been applied in a man-
ner not creditable or honourable. He believed that the
object of the recent State prosecutions was, in the first
place, to vindicate what was called the majesty of the
law, and, in the next place, to obtain an increased respect
for the institutions of the country by inspiring public
confidence in the wisilom and justice of the law.(Hear,
hear.) He had carefully attended to the debate which
had taken place lately in that House, having reference to
the State trials, and he had thoughtfully weighed the
evidence given at them, and he must say he found it
totally impossible, in the whole transactions, to find
any portion of them creditable either to the judge who
presided, to the jury who were impannelled, to the 'law
officers who instituted the proceedings—to any, infleed;
of the parties concerned, but especially to some of those
persons mho were witnesses on the part of Crown. The
branch of the subject to which, on the present occasion,
he wished to call the attention of the House was, that
relative to the conduct pursued by the Government
towards the press, and those connected with or em-
ployed by it. An arbitrary Government had two ways
of destroying the liberty of the press—either by per-
secution, or by corruption by straining the law
against the press, or by corrupting the persons con-
nected with it. The present Government had pursued
both these courses. They were not satisfied with cor-
rupting the members of the press, but they attacked and
persecuted it in such a way as he was perfectly satisfied
the law would not justify. That question, however,
would be distinctly brought forward by an Hon. Mem-
ber at a future time ; and he would not, therefore,
trouble the House with more than one observation in re-
ference to it upon the present occasion. He would just ob-
serve, that such a charge—the charge of conspiracy—so
framed and so supported, as it had been recently in Ireland,
never had been, and never dared be, attempted in Eng-
land. It was contrary to the law, and that had been
distinctly ruled so on a trial in the year 1840 at Lan-
caster, not only by the Attorney-General, but by the
presiding judge on the occasion, Baron Rolfe. They
had seen in Dublin the strange sight of Mr. O'Connell
being made responsible for articles published in
Dublin newspapers which.he never saw, and of making
the newspapers and the proprietors responsible for
speeches which others uttered and they never heard.
At that trial the Attorney-General and Baron Rolfe
distinctly stated that the only party responsible ror
the articles in a newspaper was the proprietor, and that
even the editor was not to be held so, although he might
be one of the parties charged with the conspiracy. But
this was not the subject to which he wished to direct the
attention of the House. He wished to call their atten-
tion to that portion of the subject relating to the
reporters who had been employed by the Govern-
ment, and those connected with the public press,
who had been corrupted by the Government, to aid their
purposes in those trials.. He asserted that if the object
of those prosecutions had been to create a great moral
influence, all the transactions in connection with them
ought to bear the light of the day, and there could be
not the slightest objection to making them public. He
thought the conduct of the Attorney-General for
Ireland towards Mr. Bond Hughes was most extraordi-
nary, and he (Mr. Duncombe), in exercising his right as
a Member of that House, in moving for these re-
turns, did not in the slightest degree intend
to impugn that gentleman's conduct or character.
It was quite clear, from the speech of the counsel for the
traversers, that they acquitted him of any underhand
proceeding. The party, therefore, who had most reason
to complain of the conduct of the Government was Mr.
Bond Hughes himself. With respect to the mistake
that had been made in the name of Mr. Barrett, it was
quite clear that the Attorney-General for Ireland was
perfectly aware of it ; and it was also quite evident that
the Crown solicitor and his clerk were also perfectly cog-
nisant of that mistake, and could have rectified it by the
dash of a pen, and thus put an end to the persecution
to which that gentleman was subjected. It was also
quite clear that Mr. Bond Hughes when he attended on
the Crown solicitor told him about the mistake with re-
spect to the name of Mr. Barrett. Mr. Kemmis, after
Mr. Hughes had been indicted for swearing to the
fact, still persisted in his endeavours to have it
proved. He (Mr. Duncombe) thought this most
discreditable to Mr. Kemmis. In the Pilot news-
paper of the 26th of January it was remarked that
when Mr. Barrett went to lodge informations, he had no
means of knowing whether Mr. Bond Hughes was wil-
fully wrong, because he could give no in-
formation or explanation on the subject.—(Hear.)
It was also remarked that Mr. Kemmis, the Crown so-
licitor, stated before the magistrate that Mr. Hughes was
not in the kingdom. He said he considered the present
proceeding a most extraordinary one, for Mr. Hughes
had remained several days in Dublin after he swore his
information, and yet no attempt had been made to
impeach his veracity. Tho magistrate, it seemed,
refused the summons, because he thought that the
granting of it would prejudice the prosecution, as
Mr. Hughes was out of the country. Why, would
the House—would the country believe that Mr. Hughes
left Ireland by the desire of the Solicitor of the Crown?
—(Hear, hear.) Me was told that unless he left Ire-
land his life would not be safe. Why should not his life
be safe? Could they not have made his life safe imme-
diately, and have quieted all the denunciations directed
against him by stating publicly that he had not com-
mitted wilful perjury ?—(Hear, hear.) He understood
from the friends of Mr. Hughes that he was not at all
aware that he was to be a party to informations, and
that he would rather have cut off his right hand than
consent to be a party to any.—(Hear, hear.) Mr.
Hughes was not a person who would descend to become
ri common informer. The fact was, he was deceived by
the Solicitor for the Crown, having been told that he
was only swearing an affidavit, and verifying his notes,
whilst it turned out that he was laying an information.
—(Hear, hear.) Was such duplicity ever practised to-
wards any individual as was practised on this occasion
towards Mr. Bond Hughes? When Mr. Hughes was sent
over, he was desired on his arrival in Dublin to go to the
Attorney-General. It appeared that the Attorney-General
being out he went to Mr. Brewster, and from Mr.
Brewster he received his instructions. It was for these
instructions that he now asked, together with the sums
of money that had been paid to Mr. Bond Hughes ; not
that he believed that any sum of money could compen-
sate that gentleman for the anxiety of mind which he
had suffered, and the injury which he had sustained
during the period that he remained under a cloud.—
(Hear, hear.) The Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, and
all the parties connected with the Government, were
perfectly aware that Mr. Bond Hughes had rectified
the mistake which ho had inadvertently committed.
He said, therefore, that Mr. Bond Hughes had great
reason to complain. He (Mr. Duncombe) would like to
know what sum Mr. Hughes received as compensation ;
and whether he was as well paid as another individual,
he meant Mr. Charles Ross. He (Mr. Duncombe) had
now done with Mr. Bond Hughes, and he hoped that he
had said nothing derogatory to that gentleman's
character, as it had not been his intention to do
so. He next came to the " Carlisle patriot."—
(Laughter.) Mr. Charles Ross, it appeared, was em-
ployed by the Morning Chronicle newspaper as a repor-
ter, and in his evidence, when examined by Mr. Ser-
geant Warren, he said that he arrived in Dublin on the
3d of July. He said he came to take the notes of Mr.
O'Connell's meeting at Donnybrook. He was asked,
" Did you come of your own accord, or was it
suggested to you ? I do not ask you who it was sug-
gested it to you." Mr. Ross—" It was suggested to me."
He was then asked, for whom did you attend?" Mr.
Ross—" I attended on the part of the Government."
It therefore appeared that he had been sent over by the
Government, they knowing that he was in the employ of
the Morning Chronicle, a paper opposed in politics to the
Government. In the course of cross-examination, this
question was put to him," I believeyou said you were sent
over to Ireland by the Government ?" Mr. Ross—" Yes,
I was." " Now Government is a comprehensive word,
have you any objection to tell what member of the Go-
vernment suggested this to you ?" Immediately upon
this question being put, the counsel for the Crown
jumped up, and said, " Don't answer that question !"
as much as to say, "Don't tell the Irish peo-
ple—don't tell the English people, who it was
that employed you." Mr. Charles Ross had
before stated that he had been sent over and employed
by a person high in office. Now he (Mr. Dunoombe)
wanted to know, and he thought he had a right to ask,
who-that high person was ?—(Hear, hear.) Could not
'the ::Government find other persons but those em-
ployed on newspapers—and employed by newspapers,
too; not in the interest of the Government ? Could they
not have found other persons than those for such
a disreputable purpose as that for which Mr. ROsS.liad
been engaged ? Of course the Government knewsp7-.
fectly well that a person going over under false cOlours
—going as the reporter to the Morning Chronicle 'would
thereby be enabled to obtain information with
facility. This they considered was an advantage.
He understood that at one meeting, that which took place
at Mullaghmast, this individual, Mr. Ross, was known
to acquainted and connected with the liberal press,
and was treated OR that account with the greatest kind-
ness by the traversers themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In-
deed, so little did they think that this gentleman was a
spy; that Mr. Steele, one of the traversers, took him
in his own carriage, 42 miles, to Dublin.—(Rear, hear.)
By this means he got an insight into all their secrets.—
(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to
know who was the honourable and upright individual who
employed that individual. He stated that he had re-
ceived 350/. for this and 501. for the Donnybrook meet-
ing. ; He-then came back to England, and his cornice-
tion with the Morning Chronicle having, ceased at the
•iertilinatlini of the session of Parliament, he went again
to Ireland for the Standard newspaper, and"then it was
that he didthis dirty work for the government. Whose

who employed this man to do this dirty work ought to
be known, not only to the Government, but to the I
people. The people ought to know who ordered the
spending of their money for such purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
He could not believe that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government would condescend to such.
meanness, nor could he think the Right Hon. Baronet.
the Secretary of State for the JraiDe Department, had
any hand in it—(Hear, hear)—becatige, on a former oc-
had szsid that "the
casion, the Right Hon. Gentleman
Government had never employed spies ain& 15. t.he 'Po-
lice, and that if any of them had been employed- e
such
c
a character, it must have been under the countenane o
some local magistrates. Now he (Mr. D.) wanted to knocv
if it was a Member of the other House of Parliament ;
and this he would say, that, let it be whom it might, they
had inflicted eternal disgrace upon themselves.—(Hear,
hear.) So much for the Carlisle patriot, Mr. Ross.—
(Laughter.) He was now an ornament to the Standard
newspaper. He was now, he (Mr. Duncombe) be-
lieved, a reporter on that paper—(Hear, hear)—and as
an agent of the Government, he (Mr. Duncombe) should
like to know what he had received as a remuneration
for the services he had rendered. Before he went to the
case of Mr. Jackson, he would read to the House what
was the opinion of the Irish press upon these transactions.
There was an account of blr. Charles Ross in the Dub-
lin newspapers which he would read to the House. (The
Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph describing the
manner in which Mr. C. Ross had acted in Ireland, from
which it appeared that that person had represented him-
self in Dublin as the reporter, first of the Morning Chro-
nick, and subsequently of the Standard, while in re-
ality, he attended the meetings in Ireland in the
capacity of agent to the Government, for the
purpose of obtaining information to be afterwards
rendered available for prosecuting individuals. The
paragraph also stated that ROss had acted a most trea-
cherous part, 'and one unworthy of a man having the
least pretensions to the character of a gentleman—that
he had deceived those with whom his professional duties
brought him in contact, having represented himself as
acting in the honourable capacity of a newspaper reporter,
while he was in reality a reporter for the Government—
that-no sophistry could palliate such treacherous conduct,
whichwas so different from the conduct of those reporters
who, when called as witnesses on a former occasion of a
similar kind, had refused to attend. The paragraph
went on to state what was, in his (Mr. Duncombe's)
opinion, the most correct, that if this principle of turn-
ing newspaper reporters into Crown witnesses were ge-
nerally adopted, the freedom of discussion would be at
an end.)—(Hear, hear.) He came next to Mr. Jackson,
of the Morning Herald, who it appeared was not a re-
gular reporter, but a correspondent of the Morning
Herald, and who used to write some very interesting
and entertaining reports for that paper, and which he
used to render, to use his own terms, " rather spicy" for
those readers who indulged in the Morning Herald.—
(Laughter.) At the close of that person's examination
he stated that the Morning Herald had then lately
changed hands, and that it was a short time previous to
the change of proprietors that he had been directed to put
himself in communication with Mr. Kemmis, the Crown
solicitor, and that he had heard Mr. O'Connell fre-
quently repudiate his being made, yespuiible for
what appeared in the newspapers. Thee ..witness
then said that he wished to say s'obiling, as
comments might be made on his Cisndrict.
The Lord Chief Justice then asked him what he wished
to say. Mr. Jackson then protested solemnly that those
documents were given to the Crown solicitor, Mr.
Kemmis, by the proprietors of the Morning Herald,
without his knowledge—(Hear, hear)—and that he never
knew they were in the hands of the Crown solicitor till
they were banded to him (Mr. Jackson) by that gentle-
'--man.—(Hear.) He said he thought it was due to his
character to make this plain explanation of the truth.—
(Hear, hear.) No person, said the Hon. Member, could
cast the least blame upon Mr. Jackson after this state-
ment.—(Cheers.) It was evident that Mr. Jacksoa
was ashamed of the conduct of the Crown, and
that he was very anxious to cast the odium
of the transaction from himself. Those docu-
ments were handed over by the proprietors
for reasons best known to themselves. Ile knew it
might be said that this took place before the transfer of
the Morning Herald, which happened on the Ist -of
January ; but there were reasons for handing over
these documents before the money was paid, and before
the Government assisted in advancing the money.—
(Cheers.) The Government, no doubt, had very equit-
able claims to the documents which they found in the
Morning Herald office before that establishment was
transferred, and before it was incorporated with the.
Standard. But it was clear Mr. Jackson was ashamed
of the transaction, though it appeared the Morning Herald
was not ashamedof handing over the documents.—(Hear.)
He said that the Government ought to be ashamed of
their conduct in availing themselves of those documents.
He would read some of the opinions of the press on this
subject. The opinions were strong, but not stronger
than the conduct of the parties would justify. (The
Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph from one of the
newspapers, which stated that the conduct of the Morning
Herald in this transaction, was unparalleled in the public
press. The charge against it was clear and unmistake-
able. The Herald received communications under the
seal of confidence, and had bartered them to the Govern-
ment, for the purposes of carrying on a prosecution.
Such conduct struck at the root of all confidence in the
public journals. It made those who attended public
meetings for the purpose of reporting, spies and in-
formers. They could but express their abhorrence of
the perfidious conduct pursued in this transaction which
' the Herald and Crown might divide between them.)—
(Cheers and laughter.) ,He (Mr. Duncombe) concurred
in that opinion, and he thought that even if the Herald
was base enough to hand over the documents to the
Crown, the Crown ought not to have availed itself of
them in a trial of such importance. The trial became
tainted by such conduct—(Hear, hear)—and they had
better have left the prosecution alone, than have con-
ducted it by such means, which reflected so little credit
on the Government. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for
the Colonies, informed the House the other night, with
more candour than discretion, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wrote a letter to the Attorney-General for Ire-
land, commending him for the judgment, the firmness, and
good temper with which he conducted the prosecution.
As they had thus passed a vote of thanks to the At-
torney-General for Ireland, he hoped that others con-
nected with the trials would not be excluded. He hoped
the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench would receive a
vote of thanks for the charge he had delivered.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He hoped that Mr. Kemmis, too,
the Crown Solicitor, would be thanked for his
services in procuring the jury.—(Cheers.) No donbt
the proprietors of the Morning Herald and Standard
found a sufficient recompense in their own consciences,
and were above any idea of remuneration ; but he must
say they would not do justice to the Chief Justice and to
Mr. Kemmis, if they only thanked the Attorney-General
for the judgment and temper with which he had con-
ducted the prosecution. Now, he wanted to know if a
verdict so obtained would gain any moral in-
fluence whatever—he doubted it very much ;
it certainly had not produced that effect in England.
The impression, from one esi+Of England to the other,
was, that Mr. O'Connell had not had a fair trial. At
the close of last session, the Right Hon. Secretary
of State for the Home Department told the House that,
if it did not strengthen the hands of the Government,
and maintain its authority in Ireland, England would
present amelancholy spectacle to the eyes of surrounding
nations. If there was then a shadow of foun-
dation for the Right Honourable Gentleman's
assertion, the Government must now be in
that state of alarm. If they looked at what had
occurred during these debates, and to the general opi-
nion of the conduct of the Government, he must say he
had never known a debate so damaging to a Government.
—(Laughter, and Oh, oh ! from the Ministerial benches.)
They must be on the eve of the fulfilment of the predic-
tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, if there was the
slightest foundation for his assertion of last session.
He (Mr. Duncombe) had no apprehension of that
prediction being fulfilled. The only apprehension
he had of their becoming a melancholy spectacle
in the eyes of other nations Was a fear that
Members of Parliament would not speak out on this
question, and would not do their duty ; but if Hon.
Members on both sides of the House would do
their duty in this matter, there need be no alarm.
He knew it was perfectly competent to ,her Majesty's
Ministers to refuse the returns he moved for, and that
without adducing one single argument in support of
their conduct, just as they had refused the other night
the motion of his Honourable and Gallant Friend
near him (Capt. Layard, we believe). On that occasion
they relied not on argument, but on their numerical ma-
jority.—(Hear, hear.) They might do so on that occa-
sion, they might refuse the information he sought for,
and which Ireland had a right to have; but if they did
so, the country would not be satisfied, and every
impartial man would come to the conclusion, that these
proceedings had been conducted, from first to last, in a
way which reflected no honour on them, either as men,
or as Ministers of the Crown.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WALLACE was understood to second the motion.
Sir -JAMES GRAHAM said, he should, indeed, en-
tertain a melancholy opinion of the future prospects, not
only of Ireland, but of the whole country, if the ma-
jority in that House sympathised with the sentiments of
the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward
this motion.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial

benches.) And he must add, that under ordinary circum-
stances, after the speech which had just been delivered,
and especially after the invectives and accusations in
which the Hon. Gentleman had indulged when speaking
of the Government, he should. have considered it his
duty to oppose entirely the returns asked for ; but,
considering the whole circumstances of the case—the
particular time at which the motion was made, and that
there must be a voto of public money during the present
session, in connection with these prosecutions—he could
not bring iihimself to give to the motion a positive and
absolute opposition. He would beg the House to re-
member in what light the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dun-
cumbe) presented himself to them that evening. If he
(Sir. J. Graham) mistook not, the Hon. Gentleman
was last night attending a meeting of his constituents in
Finsbury, where, after a strong and a warm discussion, a
motion was carried instructing him to obstruct the,
progress of the supplies in that House.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—There was no such motion made.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM confessed he might be wrong;
for after the great variety of subjects there introduced,
and the great variety of opinions expressed upon them,
it was somewhat difficult to say with certainty what had
really passed.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman warned
the Government that they were damaged by the late
debate, that they were not so strong as they thought.
themselves to be, and that a change bad recently taken
place on his own-side of the House. He wished him joy of
it, and of the new compact alliance which they had formed"
But he would now proceed to touch upon some of those.
topics to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted in
his speech. He would not then go into the discussion',
of the conduct of the trial in Ireland ; he would not then
re-open all those questions which for nine i-nights-klid-
occupied the attention of that HQU'S43.--(lleuir' bear.)

His Hon. Friend the Member for Brit..lport w as about
ask him that evening when it was the intot ition 4111
Majesty's Government to proceed with meastt res of gitehaq
practical importance, on which the greatest an: iety in
public mind prevailed, and which he admit ted itytas
necessary to proceed with without delay—he alluded to
the Factories Bill and the Poor-law. Now he begged t°
remind the House that since the protra.cte.i. debate on
the affairs of Ireland, they had had two days for suPPV;
and on each of those occasions the HOll. Nenlit
for Rochdale made a motion before g ig
true
Committee, for the avowed purpose of ,obs."
ing the progress of the votes.—(Hear, hen r.)
also, the Hon. Gentleman, adopting the same 1 ine,
an
pursuing the same course, not content with on'a
thot evening made a second, re-opening nearly' all
questions with reference to the conduct of the tri:
ti
which had already undergone protracted dis cussAsbe
Under these circumstances he must anticil ate t.a.
question of the Honourable Member fu
B ben
port, by stating that it was impossible for
Majesty's Government to fix any precise time, for Pr'-
eeeding with the measures to which the qua stn
re;
ferred.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial I cl
Now with reference to the motion of the Hon
man, he at once avov,Ted that her Majesty's Goi
inotiTs
observing in the early part of last year the .langa,%
which was used at largo...meetings assembled in I (vital";
rapid succession, did thii:k it their impend ive
to obtain clear, full, .auth4tic, and seetisfacted
evidence as to the language eoployaat these i neetine,
He said decidedly that he should have betrayed his (1171
to the public if he had omitted every fair oppor tunitLm.
obtaining authentic information. ,Now be saw El on. G
tlemen on the other side opposed to him—he was of
_ya
bitterly opposed to himin party politics, but: be ir ;
°'!"-,
ask them whether, at all times, it had not been th.e Prav4.t
of the executive Government, when popular e xciteineL
was running high, and immense public meetings "ei'Toei
being assembled, to obtain authentic information
means of shorthand-writers astothe language adehts
to meetings of this description?—(Hear, hear, from r Lord
John Russell.) The simple question was whe.the
means employed for obtaining information were I:loi:to
legitimate. Now, the Hon. Gentleman had though te`,,,
17 use, he would not say offensive, but certainly very stt;
language with reference to the course which ha a 0
pursued in the case under consideration. He (sir
rTames Graham) did not shrink from avowing t 7
tist.*;;
the means which had been adopted to obt`r,
information in this case had been adopt( 4
el;f1
him, and on his personal responsibility.—(9ll.4o
from the Ministerial benches, and " Hear, hear,
both sides of the House.) He did not wish to 'rot,
this responsibility with any of his colleagues—flie.nd
hear) ha was the person who was responsible. 0.7)
from that responsibility he would not shrink,--(A'bes
The course he adopted with respect to Mr. Bond HU
was, to apply to Mr. Gurney, the gentleman at the
h.un
of the reporting establishment for the Government,
41:1
ask him to get an intelligent person and a good s
hand writer, and direct him to procure this persceo%
services, at the usual rate of remuneration given to got
"-
tlemen so employed. Mr. Gurney, in accordance °Ad;
those directions, procured .Mr. Bond Hughes, an shod
gentleman was sent over to Ireland, to take swie
hand notes of.the speeches made at those nioelJ,ll
He (Sir J. Graham) was perfectly willing to producvde
return of all the moneys expended under this head-
,•;.
should most freely give returns of all the move r !or
pended under the item of Mr. Gurney's shorthand
blishment, and in those documents it would be foul
that Mr. Bond Hughes did not receive any higher reof
neration for his services on those trials than
.:0
other Government shorthand writer ; and he ,rurf
convinced that the Honourable Member for Fins_nu
would find that this remuneration had not been estritivi
gant. The Hon. Member. had referred to whartrates
occurred concerning the mistake about Mr. 136 not
name ; but with this e.z.-ception, there wadbeet
one portion of Mr. Hughes's evidence which
shaken, even by the strictest cross-examination-los,
should say, with respect to Mr. Charles lost
that the first occasion upon which the Govt.'lll Ire
thought fit to send a shorthand writer to be
land was in the month of June, an asni
avowed that he had known Mr. Ross for 300§$
years, and felt confident that he was a ;op
accurate reporter and a trustworthy and honourabls
000
He (Sir J. Graham) knowing him to be such, on Wet tbs
responsibility, sent for Mr. Ross, and told him til_a.A
Government wished a shorthand writer to proc,7o4ls
Ireland for the purpose of attending a meeting_,os
to be held at Donnybrook. His direction to Dar,;tirais
was, " You will proceed there—you will take an ae; oath
note of what is said, and be prepared to verify tiPP„,t
ent
that which you hear." The pecuniary arran:ool
was that Mr. Ross was to receive 50/. for his treSoo
expenses. Mr. Ross did proceed to Ireland—he tt'ebsti/
the meeting at Donnybrook, and he took a ver.oo
report of it. Subsequently at the end of the sesslofef,
Parliament, before Mr. Bond Hughes was sellt,„,,bicb
another arrangement was made with Mr. Boss".;alsel
was that he should again proceed to Ireland, and I 00
there during the recess—the whole of the recess fr?..„01,
Ist or 2d of August, until the first week in Febi-oar
for the sum of 3501. It would appear, when IStrr•
ney's account was presented to the House, that the ty
of payment to Mr. Ross was considerably leas then
rate of payment to Mr. Bond Hughes, and the ple se:
employed in Mr. Gurney's establishment. Nco,r
cusation was, that Mr. Ross was sent over
(Sir James Graham) as a spy. He most soleniniee.
positively denied that accusation. His slireceii
to Mr. Ross were, to go to Ireland and avow hime 01)
the reporter for the Government. He (Sir J. :
knew that at that time Mr. Ross was connected as' 00
porter with one of the morning papers—he believe oil
Morning Chronicle. He was also aware that at t_
_,hespd
of the session of Parliament Mr. Ross went to lre'
for the Standard. But his directions to that
man were, " You will proceed to Ireland
reporter for the Government." He did not sanctie' 4
r ((
concealment whatever. He did not sanction it eidlelf:
rectly or indirectly. But the Hon. Gentlen3a_ne s'tt,
Duncombe) said that after all it was well-kV:0"-Oct'
Mr. Ross was employed by the Government- ii,b9
Duncombe made some observation across the table jpo'
we did not hear.) He certainly understood th% ft
Gentleman to say that Mr. Ross had concealed th,. ,
`of his being the Government reporter, and that h",...40$
travelled with Mr. Steele forty-two miles while 11
Government reporter. Now this he (Sir J. GrahOY
solutely and positively denied.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—It was his own evidence.,"
Sir J. GRAHAM had not the least objection, norpiii
these circumstances, to produce the account
monies paid to Mr. Ross, and of all troneyser.
to Mr. Bond Hughes, and of the for
tions given to them. Those instructions .4 Or
certainly verbal, for which he (Sir J. Graham) Sec viligoP
tle
sponsible. Now, with regard to the case of Mr- oni
-That was the third case mentioned by the /lon. --a
man. With With Mr. Jackson he (Sir J. Graham) 1,1:1* 05.;
no communication. Mr. Jackson was a repol;sl4,e!
netted with the Morning Herald, and was 019',
-in Dublin. The Crown solicitor was bound 0
evidence to corroborate the testimony of
tw
afrve
Hughes and Mr. Ross, and ascertained
Jackson had taken notes of some of the tneeting'S'
therefore communicated with Mr. Jacksolliii,llll
with the conductors of the Morning•• Dior
in whose service Mr. Jackson was elliri
fierhe
A return should be made of all the law en:tenses:or
red in the late prosecutions, in which would to ).101;;
amount of all the moneys that had been PI „oil a.
Jackson. He must again declare that no cotenleo 05
t
whatever had taken place between the Goyerlini
Mr. Jackson further than lie had stated.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—Or the Morning Herald: goe,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed that tilegee'
must determine whether, in a case of this 1.00'",(
tion, it was not the bounden duty of the Otteiblme t
to bring as much corroborative evidence as P';',jattrije
the persons employed by the Government, provlbip
Are
testimony was obtained openly and honours ton
had no hesitation in avowing that a communics
been` made by the Government to the Morning topt-
rie
and Standard newspapers, requesting the prop
rota t.
those papers to allow their reporters to corrobo
00014
testimony of the persons employed by the °leretco
He (Sir J. Graham) had told the House the 01019
which, on the part of the Government, he w.ss,aviiiiolloo
assent o the production of. He was -truowie
producet a return of all moneys paid, and all We? 1.•
given on the part of the Government, with
the late prosecutions ; and he would add, t"- 00
now, or on', some future occasion, he would Jul
table a return of the rate of pay to the reel, frelstP
ployed on Mr. Gurney's establishment, both it OA,
and Wales, on similar occasions, from whit ads oo rots
be seen that the payments that had been illta tbstOihot
late occasion were not greater in proportiolle -to ne,
previous ones.—(Hear, hear.) He now CS° fibici:dro
portion of the Hon. Gentleman's motion Clot r...nercil
must decidedly object. He objected to that
con
of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, because It v,its
tained insinuations that to the Morning
insinuations that could not be misunderstoo% 0,04
lierao:d take
Standard newspapers sums of money had
paid, and that some corrupt practices m
st ,o%c,
place.—(Hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) in the 00
manner as a gentleman denied the truth of sllsa herons
tions, and he contended that the Hon. Gentle:a .nionar,
right in the shape of a return to make such „..01.es
—insinuations that con veyed indelible solo Vs,
ng
hear.) The gentleman connected with the PI,
possessed fine and honourable feelings-4111, 'to I re.'
and more incapable of doing that dirty wor 5 oitelot
the Hon. Gentleman had adverted. Ile witof the to
solved, therefore, to resist the production as giod get,
return—he was aware that in doing so he W vrOtil
the Hon. Gentleman an advantage which he of then'
be slow to avail himself of, viz., the repeatng_bujog_ap
sinuation with double effect that there Was sonierliooPlj,
cealed. But he again repeated,in themost sol 0:81 gronk
that for that insinuation, there was not thel„. Vet of
With respect to the last return which the
the nanie'oe
man had moved for—namely, a return of repo.4,oce
the persons now employed by Mr. Gurno9,,:operl fief
proceedings in the Corn Exchange, after 11,,,tia Pisir
in the streets of Dublin as a spy
which they had had of the posting of Mr. I've, be to
41:9/.aham) was not prepared to hold uP thoettill/e,
Vfptiblic execration, as he would do
and inforinoso pers ta
by c° os °,1,0
give that .return.—(Hear, hear.) Before he it wastio
he would just observe, that in those tiniesblie
easy task to insure the administration of 130„,e r in
against-great offenders, without incurring su, Acji,
of public obloquy. It was his painful dutYrttofacv.pg
d 5 • teo
curring that obloquy. But it was a Wu ~;1116
,that upon the, whole he had succeeded--auw;oveYer-
only the law, and asking for no extraorclinarlwie
in putting down a dangerous conspiracy (.00. to as
stood the Right Hon. Gentleman), and
tice great public offenders. In doing ,5°000re.',4:01
acted conscientiously, faithfully, and nu ed "tiEe
'deter'.
and he was not going to be thopt;sed
continuing in that course. He would of 10
of the account the Hon. Gentleman had gii:ett'd,..o tjtO
conduct to-niglit. One time lie attacked 014'06
in political trials—another time lie tutus
bring.l ;4,

the constable, as he did in the case of
friend of his who was now he (Sir J. Graham) be-
loved
the "tan outlaw. Ile, again, attacked the. conduct of
aesPit prosecutor. At another time it was the wit-
e,„'" whom he assailed. Upon the whole the Hon.
tire'ttletean had a, most morbid sensibility—an instinctive
laleasl as it were, of political inquiries.—(Hear, and
to Luter from the Ministerial benches.) And be, seemed
to 7 greaoy alarmed that justice'had at last overtaken
gad offenders. He wished him joy.—(Hear, hear,
lie,,,!;augli.) But with respect to his own (Sir J. Gra-
th t conduct, he had the approval of the majority of
-.°ese•—(Laughter from the Opposition benches.)
gsal/ arranged opposite to him, note ithstanding some
aration, a strong muster or parties opposed to the
Zernent. They (the Ministers) had math no such
pa went,
but atilt he felt confident that without
aeseg
th made any such preparation, in appealing to the
lloe feeling, and the judgment of that House, the
:0 Gentleman would not succeed in his motion.
Par 1 J.. RUSSELL said that he certainly made no
ratations—(Cheers and laughter)—for this debatehe ,
•
f "e intend to take any other part in it than what
frog did 4
called upon to take in consequence of what fell
Mae the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Honour-
thoB Gee
he believed it was the practice of I
rat: eho were concerned in the executive department
Wag' c,°wltra"--at least so far as the Home Department
qtlie,,°--cerned—to send persons, when the excited state
ek- eetiatry required it, to obtain reports of what took.
Weal Pilhile meetings. He would say, at once, that if
the
the Government, and if the excited state of
te..,frale
„ mind, either in England or Ireland, required
k 01;ge meetings were held, and if it appeared "to
late,- reading the reports of what passed at those
.
emeligs, that anything of a seditious, or dangerous
:bt7, had been said, he would consider it it his duty
Nra4ll,. correct reports of the proceedings.—(Hear,
ile.' cue did not know that he Would have done any-
Nei 'Jut what the Right Hon. Gentleman had done--
e
1.1p11" aPPIY to Mr. Gurney for a short-hand writer,
tore,,t he could place confidence, and send him to take
ttlet-4, reports of what had taken place, more
3tiala4l3' if the language was of such a character
Olt render it necessary to institute legal proceed-
eattat,e would say there would be no security for the
t5e,,,%7 if reports of Meetings were to appear in the
ttierPers, and alleaved to be circulated by them, con-
tioaog Perhaps language of a seditious and revolu-
!loae /' kind, and if the Government of the country
etaweje not to have cognisance of what passed at
-tteti,,..ie was not now speaking of any particular
kalt k-aseut of possible meetings, at which language of
the cearacter might have been used. He thought
Nkl,itecutseuld be placed in great danger if the
itlst7,,"id not do his duty in such a case.—(Hear.)
',tam° the view which the Right Hon. Gentleman did
glityAnleetings. he thought he would not be doing his
8e tams
had did not take steps to have correct reports of
%nil" been done at those meetings.—(Hear, hear.)
writt:ught that a person employed as a shorthand
144 till„) anti Paid at the rate at which those persons were
/'lls was a person very different from those
were formerly employed by the Govern-
,Md who were called epics.—(Cries of
atl‘tale'' Bear.") But if he was a person employed se-
"vent into the secret councils of persons
Ytte, to be disaffected—if he watcbed- their len-
Zae ,„a•z a-. reported to his employers what passed at
4t ~,,„eret meetings:such a person might go beyond
Lx
Yete'cerreet,- and might excite and promote that
t ate,"aueetieti and sedition, that very treason, which
'a fa irateemPloyed to report, But a person who goes to
ly andfaithllitly the commands he has re-
* P take a report of. what passes at public meet-
- -to the commission of any crime
4 iltetttlerelY states_ what he sees, and
.takes .down what
...%44113. Then, bOw could any person conceivea-how.
''itt• aLIY Person have right to complain of it as a
nme dourwhen he 'is Simply sent among them to
theiroea words? The , Right Honourable
proceeded to the other part of his
'ts,kre „,"Pon which, certainly (continued his-Lordship),
te "•80 Willing, because I am not so able, to'
ertalatr- "Won. Right lion. Gentleman re-
'fitote„." 'ne• corroboration which he required of the
"eet 'reports, from the reporters 'of the
PaPers
t • ° teeesa• that waS merely. asking those
`d xsu9Wa. repoets of
,proceedings, to appear atthe
`,ll, as.. to what they had so taken'
b -mer- to verify what had been taken by the
titiVrcPOrtes.:l cannot see what matter of
‘o to could be in making that request.—(Hear,
Nr,„,hether it might • not injure the credit of a
t;Ncnk'Lr. if it should be known that its reporters were
erA'h of assisting thnGovernment in its -prosecu-
Ctei:'X',,was tematter for the 'proprietors of newse
tkAttaae3"flac- s to consider ; that was a matter of
117 Nikay and newspaper morality, with which
-.'ed,ti, went has no concern. But I must say that
tyeh of_ the Rig ht Hon. Gentleman's .defence,
acedremorad to Mr. Charles
Ross, depends entirely on
• • LeY with which that individual observed his in.
• de
‘,..._•lfhe openly made his report to the Govern
t-
emetairrt, ruent.m Ireland or England, and. did
~,erole, chareeter, then the instructions given him
,114a47„nPer, and were properly observed ; but if, on the
;Tr O,J; Itr. L Ross concealed his character in any
°r worined himself into the councils and
LMaa,T, of those gaged in the repeal agitation, then t
ittstiet" relit whatetnlie Right Hon.-Baronet says abalit the
7,12k441J51P he gave him, but I must say, . -some injury
tiler ut, by those instructions-not being duly car-,
di,rose- for the purpose of stating what I con-
Lteof ur,V 'would have been had been in the ser-
r.h.ll. t -a'rewn, but the Right Hon. Gentleman has
k,„,'q some compact and alliance bet Ween myself
K'lectt,:','Conriell. I am perfectly well aware of-the
t, Latch, during the existence of the late Govern-
th constant reiteration of that charge—(Hear)-
04 abl,"'"ertion that the patronage of the Government
ethTl at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell, produced
4" of the Government, though the -charget wrae,
tkiEt 13? ungunded. Although the statement that there,
"Pstilefete._ nee compact between Mr.- O'Connell and myriti.
tkivo teieration, yet I will never shrink if I see, .
one else—any other person of less
91 bahumbler sphere of life-L-whatever-
:'ne: 'Le obloqguylnto which I may be exposed in cense-
ta or that 'd 1 rat'on—l will never shrink, when I
1111447°11 treitieetedain thei manner in which Mr. O'Coa-
V :eta treated, from declaring in this House, that
o te.sou h
had a fair trial.—(Loud cheers,)
o as not
tra kelt? that the Right Hon. Gentle.man can cast
--•
,44110 obloquy that the party to which the Right
ti ti4iste. 'tertian belongs can cast upon me, for acting
"'ler shall deter me from doing what I con-.
cruet &Ut to the Constitution.-(Loud.. cheers.) 'The
re, Gentleman prides himself upon the results
• qt,hela7u,;_ but since he so prides himself, I will atate-
touelat if the same offence had been committed
I,l4liltal hnr,ntrY, supposingAttorney-General for
the
hat similar course, we
(1.4 o.vm
andPtirsedif a
(Ce' elle; nut eresnetmeharge from the judge-
-44‘, _,rs)—and a different verdict from. the jury.—
v Nai'eu eheer'na ) That is my opinion, and be the
skri,_-' Who theyl will cease from endea.-
a may, I never
ttokeet obtain for the people of Ireland the full.
seens:
0 of °lien those rights and-privileges, of the p?a
.41,,,Twnich the people of England. are :so )li-say
•e,,,kts,MEnense cheering.) .
h"COMBE rose to reply. In the first place_
q°Yieet° accused of charging the Government with
the'Si' SPies and calling those persons spies- who
honourable agents. Ile had done no such
G overlentG reporter at public meetings, acting for
, confessed himself as the agent for the
tir etteo t"
, there was certainly nothing to justify the
kh,_4ot e4l r the word spy to him.—(Hear, hear.) He
1 that man a spy—far from it. Mr. Bond
/44W
tO thas n° spy.—(Cheers from both sides.) He
ese Metings, and openly acknowledged him-
% Irer
'fieit and hY nee of them as an agent from the Govern-
teas ee had himself manfully avowed that, ,on all
ki2aica ' " was received with that courtesy and re pn(rt
e'rere gentleman so employed, and so avowing
tt Ni:Yraent, was entitled.—(hear, hear.) Inoo
ea-
dear
opinion, such courtesy would
,;,,„..°aghout England, as 'well as Ireland, to. gee=s
kek`aele-rged in those arduous duties, and it was
. ora: '„'• should be so, for only through
Tithe:
Legg redress reports could there be any'
he
et,ted to esa of grievances.—(Hear, hear.)
Ross s was
lleY dee saY that the position of Mr;Charles os
ceedebrent to that of Mr. Bond Hughes.—(Hea.r.)
[4:,.ttikht"ety, had been very different.—(Hear, hear.)
144 M -tion. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) said he em-
14,!tte--;.vi'l Charles Ross, knowing at the time that he
aiQttint i'Tnt to the Morning Ch., oniele. He left it to
lot)4, to 'en. Baronet to reconcile it with his own c
one
tahti t be thus employing a man whose services. be-
-1,)i;t111, line° ?tbers, and those others differing so widely
to politics.—(Cheers.) Of course with that
h
Ir ove'e 9f honour and that regard for morality which
ekr distinguished the public conduct of the Right
deutetiet, before employing Mr. Charles Ross, he
14k09oaiejetless written to the proprietors of the Morningd
.keera to advise them of his intention so to
IV of era,
loud' laughter.) nßut what was the con-
-I''lseq'" • n• -Mesa? Did be obey the instructions.
t4elag that the Right Ron. Baronet (Sir Jameos
c,bot he ,t,tsserted that evening he had given to him, n
N(Ltaori'ad done so—did Mr. Charles Ross,-he asked,
"'neez...e instructions ?—(Hear, hear.) No he did note
ttlitt4 4414
•Ross, in his examination at the triell
51. Lt you "iiid you at the meetings you attended
1441% eftetlhf to be an accredited agent and
wee• Are Government ?" His words, in. an-
ra asked" certainly not.,'— (Hear, hear., hear.)
, with reference to another occasme, who
Yes, 4,g00d place on the platform. His answ.e.r.
4:1,1'11 I h' gOt 0. very good place on the seaffoli?,
114.aa,9°I;ained through the proprietor of the Dublin:
tho al :4e Why was this place given to
n?
Tim in- Proprietor of that paper thought he was
the Ltieie ~te,..!at aft hinaself. When he went otat se-
,4,7l'viee-cuovernment reporter, he was employed in
'45 ed °' the Standard. He was asked whether he
ek°eretoe t}o, Standard that he was employed by the
orkllP reply was" Certainly not." The fact
te4tral LY Persons in thusecret were the Attorney-
%h,eti th„nd the
Right Hon. Baronet. Now be - con-
-I,4p`e -1," according to the definition laid down lay the
~kd tab d thex, I, Member fur the City of London, and
i:irst the "de7:ll, • Gentlemen opposite, Mr..Ros's came
from the
erlei b ription of a spy.—(No, no,
(tO k;",hite 'aches.) The Right Hon. Baronet had
trustvvorthy and honourable man. He
to •
..c°4lhe)left it to the people and to the country
jhile:ther it was honourable on the part of Mr. Ross
)1° hilt th;eenieetings as a Government agent, without
tateetui,'riev„,.eet• With regard to the Morning Herald,
tll,' ttiku -• said a word against Mr. Jackson, any
ghe, he ha,,
r is word
the conduct of Mr. Bond
4hkel At the it!aelsson's conduct reflected credit upon ea of his of his examination, he was so
°lzi! eel' employers, that lie exclaimed, " So help
~a,et awa.. the solicitor for the Crown sent for me, I 4pia"hed eor",that the notes which I had made were td
40:44irned thatt'theelro. secution."--(Hear, hear.) Now it
9 „ Ight. Hon. Baronet did apply to the
an the Standard for information, ,and

What he (Mr. T. Duncombe) wanted was, an account of
the sums paid to persons employed by the Morning
Herald Wand the Standard newspapers. Mr.. Ross
'stated, in his examination, that he would not
have it known - for 50,0001. that he went
to Ireland as a Government agent; he said he would only
have'gone as a newspaper reporter. On being asked if
be would have gone for 75,0001., he said, «Well, I think
would;" but he would not under 75,0001. have acknow-
ledged to the Irish people that he was the agent of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Laughter.) Did the Right
Hon. Baronet allude to the meeting of his (Mr. Dun-
combe'syconstituents which he attended last night ? It
was possible that there might have been a Government
reporter there—(Laughter)—but, at all events, whoever
gave the Right Hon. Baronet his information of what
passed there, it was very bad. That meeting was called
to take into consideration the best measures for expres-
sing their opinion's in favour of the motion which his
Hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale was about to
bring before the House. It was true also that the meet-
ing had expressed in strong terms their unabated
confidence in the humble individual who was then ad-

dressing them.- - (Laughter.) The meeting last night
had not the slightest reference to any other objects con-
templated in his motion, and he thought that such an
insinuation i•as most uneandid. The Right Hon. Baronet
had accused him (Mr. Duncombe) of acting as a
public prosecutor. He should pursue the same
course which he always had done, and whether it were
a judge, a jury, or even the Right Hon. Baronet
himself, be sliould consider it his duty to bring any op-
pression they might commit before the House so long as
he held a scat in it.

Mr. BELLEW would say a few words with respect
to the defence of the Attorney-General for Ireland,
that their reason for refusing to give the names of the
'witnesses was, that cards had been handed about Dublin
denouncing Mr. Hughes as a spy and an informer; but
the Hon. c shot'ld recollect that this had not beendone
until :Mr. Hughes had been accused of having committed
perjury—most unknowingly he (Mr. Bellew) would say,
because all that occurred with respect to Mr. Hughes
was so!cly owing to the Crown Solicitor's conduct. He
would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-
General for Ireland, if he had received any explana-
tion upon this subject, as a sufficient time
had now elapsed since the conclusion of the debate.
He could only say that this .was one of- the many pro-
ceedings during the trial which had created an impres-
sion on the minds of the people of Ireland, that from be-
ginning to end there had not been fair
.play in the late
trials, and notwithstanding the opinions expressed on
the other side of the House, that impression would con-
tinue.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided— .
For the motion 73
•
Against it
Majority against the motion —7l
LOCAL POOR-LAW ACTS.
Mr. D. APLEAN wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary intended to refer
local Poor-law Acts to a Select Committee, ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM' said that such was"not his
utention.