The Sun.
London, England, 1828-04-18 00:00:00

POOR LAWS.

Mr. SLANEY rose to present a petition, signed by the
High Sheriff and 29 Magistrates of the county of Norfolk,
praying the House to take into their consideration the
present state of the Poor Laws. The petitioners said that
they were fully convinced of the demoralization of the
lower orders, which would continue so long as the poor
looked to the parish for support.
The petition was read and ordered to be printed.
Mr. SLANEY then rose in pursuance of the notice he
had given. The importance of the subject was what no one
could doubt ; indeed, as regarded the rich, the immense
increase of the poor-rates was a point of alarming magni,
tude ; but what weighed even more with that class was,
the belief that they entertained that the abuse of those
laws caused the depression of the condition of the poor,
and destroyed that independence which was considered
the boast of the peasantry of England. The present he
considered an auspicious time to bring the subject forward,
because now, ender the advice of his Majesty's Govern-
ment, measures were about to be passed to prevent the
fluctuation of prices in future, and if, therefore, he showed
as he could do, that those fluctuations caused the depres-
sion of the poor, nn time could be more proper than the'pre-
sent for :‘onsidering the Poor Laws. Those laws were
divided into three parts; the first, the law of rating, which
Was extremely complex, and upon which therefore, he did
not mean to touch. The second was the Law of Settle •
ment, on which a Committee wall at present sitting, and
taking every pains in its investigation. The third was the
Law of Relief, to which he intended to confine himself.—
, The persons who were objects of that law were of two
classes ; first, those who were described by the original Act
of Elizabeth, the lame, the impotent, the old, the Mind, and
these unable to work. That class he would not touch
upon; and he believed that, whatever might be the opi-
nions of some speculative persons upon the impolicy of ever
having had recourse to legislative enactments for the sup.
port of such objects, the far greater majority of the rich in
this country would concede a far greater portion of their
property for the relief of such persons as those described in
the Statute. Far from straitening this bounty, he wished
to extend it by depriving another class of that which they
now received, and to which his motion exclusively referred
—he meant the second.class, namely, those able to work.
It was, lie thought, evident to every one who had
paid any attention to the subject that this class
also resolved itself into two great divisions—first,
artisans, mechanics, and their families, who, at
the time of the passing of the law, were com-
paratively insignificant, but whose numbers have extended
in a degree more extraordinary than had ever occurred in
any other country. They stood in quite a different relation
as to means of subsistence from the other classes, where-
fare any one who wished for alteration should act with ex-
treme caution, lest by grasping at too much, he might
lose all. The other c)ass was that of agricultural labourers,
who stood in a relation altogether different to mechanics
as respected the demand for their labour, at the same time
that, when a vast body, such as seven hundred thousand
spinners and weavers, might, at the will of foreign States
anfl Potentates, be left to starve, die thought both bene-
volence and wisdom should lead them to some mode
of providing for themselves. There were at present
900,000 members of Benefit Societies, which were
intentle.d, in some degree, to operate in this respect ;
and the numbers who partook of a more recent im-
provement were also enormotta. It appeared, by the re-
turns of last year, that thesums invested in Savings' Batiks
aMounted to no less than 15,000,0001., which, allowing

151. for etch depositor, gave no let,s than a million of de-
positors. The Hon. Gentleman then resumed the subject
of able-badied labourers, and stated the increase in the
Poor Rates as follows :--

'700,000

In the three years 1748, 1749, and 1750,
they came to
1783, 1784, 1785, they were something
less than 9,000,000
1803, 1804, 1805 ~,,,,x,000,000
1815 6,000,000
1818 6,800,000

1821, and which was the largest amount,.
om 7,000,000
1925 V 5,700,000
. .
1826 5,900,000
f•??, ,

1827
which was an increase of no less than nine per cent. There
was something consolatory, namely, that the ahuse of the
Poor Laws prevailed only in one part of the kingdom, the
southern counties; and that the places were marked out as
with fx line, on one side of which there were good wages

and low poor-rates, and on the other low wages and high
rates. It was also found that the great inzrease toPk place
in manufacturing districts, and that too not from any abuse
in the Poor Laws, but from other circumstances, and that

tli„x:icultural counties were not at all concerned. He
hm„zver, to ask a question, which was, how it
came that in iti74,;rnoreland there was an increase last year
of 191. per cent. grA Ei rate. In Lancaster, too, where
they were well managed, the ;,.,,Fear t was 471. per cent. ;
in the Wee Biding of Yorkshire, 311. jcr pent. ; and iu
Chester, ell. Ira Aent. ; and in the whole kingdom )l. per

cent. As pemns might suppose that there was a dimiuu-
tion .
now, because less was paid 7!..:.:,r) in 1821, he ryas soil.)
he should correct the mistake, as the causi, of the difference
was the diminution of the prices of corn in a much groqter
proportion. The cost of paupers per head was also
4appa-
rently Sc. or 4s. diminished from that of 1812—it being
in that year 75., while in 18t3 it waa 2,
In Sussex it
was more considerable, as there the prise ;oat in
1812,
IL 13s. per head, and in 1823 it was 11. ; but if we lc,ok
at the prices of corn, we see that the average in 1812 was
128 s. the quarter, while in 1823 it was only 575., less
than half of the price in 1612. The Hon. Gentleman
then praised special vestries, and referred aii p:rsons wi,,i,
ing for information to an Appendix to the Poor-rate he..
turns in 1825 and 1828. By that paper it appeared that
the expenses of the poor doubled in every 20 years, while
those of law doubled in every 12, it also appeared that the
land paid 5-7th of the whole charge, and rpannfactures
only 1-24th, and that the charge on the rack rental of tii,i.
whole kingdom was from 2s. 10d. to 3e, Bd. in the
pound. Then, as to the number of paupers relieved—in
1801, the population being nine Millions, there were
relieved one million and forty thousand, or one in pine.—
In 1811, when the population was ten millions, the
numbers relieved were 1,340,000, or one in eight of the
population. In IS 18,.population 12,000,000, there were
1,500,000. In 1826, 1,700,000—in 1827, 1,800,000.
From this it was no wendtr that (Time and misery should

increase. He then referred to the report on Scotland in I
May, 1818, from which it appeared, taking the population
then as compared with England, at one to six, that there
were paupers one in 21 ; and that the amount of Poor's
rate was one to 46, and the committals and convictions of
criminals were in the same proportion. He called atten-
tion to the case of Scotland, as one highly applicable to
this question. Out of 700 parishes only 400 were as-
sessed with a compulsory rate. The whole amount of
poor rates in 1818 was 43,0001., which was less by 6,0001.
than the assessment for Sussex. He implored the Home
to set him right if he was wrong in his details; and he
begged their continued indulgence whilst he endeavoured
to trace the causes of that alarming increase of pauperism
which demanded so much consideration. He thought the
changes in the currency had something to do with these
causes; but not so much as had been attributed to them. Sir
Edw. West had written a very sensible pamphlet on the
"Wages of Labour." By that work it appeared that the fluc-
tuations in the price of corn from 1768 to 1793 had been only
from 40s. to 625. But in 1793 the price rose to 80s. ; in 1800
it was 110 s. ; and shortly afterwards rose to 150 s. In 1808
it had fallen to 725. ; and in 1809, it was 805. ; 1810,
116 s. ; 1814, 965. ; 1817, 110 e. • and in 1821 it had
come back to 665. Now, he begged the House to look at
the condition of the poor labourer in the midst of fluctua-
tions, whieh in one year made the price of the quartern
loaf double what it was the 'preceding year. How could
he shape his ex pences or regulate his establishment? The
result of such shiftings in price upon the labouring classes
was obvious, and their present depression was easily ac.
counted for. This, he believed, was the cause of that
abuse of the Poor Laws which led to the payment of part
of the labourers' wages out of the Poor Rates. The Re-
port of the Committee of 1824, drawn up in a most sen-
sible manner, adverted to this point. But, he regretted
to say, the labouring poor of this country had to con-
tend against the enormous evil of a deluge of Irish la-
bourers, underselling the English in every market for la-
bour in the country, and actually eating the bread due to
the EngliShman and his family. He did not blame the
Irish peasant—he was driven to it ; but he did say, that
a system which took away the food of the English Libourer
to pay the rent of the Irish, was one which demanded
serious attention. The means of remedy he would now
turn his attention to. He thought the first thing to
he done was to deprive of the relief from Poor Rates,
idle and able-bodied men. These were the " sturdy
beggar," mighty in body and strength, alluded to in the•
old statutes. There was a line of territory which em-
braced sixteen counties in England, which were danger-
ously tainted by abuses in the administration of the Poer
Laws. In the whole of these the wages of labour were
paid out of the Poor Rates. There was a regular scale of
allowance for all occasions—for sickness, for children, and,
in short, for every thing. If a labourer's wife was confined,
her husband ran to the overseer, and, announcing the
event, demanded so much money. He was sure that no
Hon. Member from Sussex, from Hertfordshire, or from
Dorsetahire, would contradict him. It was obvious
that such a system must he productive of great mischief,
in breaking down the distinction between the industrious
labourer and the idle profligate. The Hon. 'Member
mentioned the case of an orphan brought up by, and
entirely dependent upon, the parish funds, who, upon
coming of age, thought fit to fall in love with a young
pauper of an adjoining parish, and imagining he had a right
to a cottage from the parish to house himself and his wife, and
a right also to support for himself and his children, insisted
on marrying. The overseers opposed the match, but the
pauper sent to a Learned Civilian, a Member of that HouSe,
for an opinion. His opinion being, that the over-
seers could not forbid the banns, he supposed now there
could be no obstruction to the marriage and all its con-
sequences. In order to show how the system operated in
some of those counties where this practice prevailed, he
would give the House an idea from one of the Reports on
their table, of the comparative number of labourers receiv-
ing poor rate relief in three Counties. In Suffolk, it ap-
peared that out of 2090 labourers, only 670 were estimat-
ed' as able bodied. In Sussex, out of 3,030, there were
but 979 able bodied, being nearly one-third of the whole.
In Hertford, out of 2437, there were but 877, which was
more than a third of the whole. He was quite sure that
this would appear to the House as an alarming evil. As
Hertford was a thoroughfare county, it was probable that
a number of Irish were included. He was sorry to say
that this great evil, tending as it did to degrade the labour-

ing population and ruin the country, was spreading itself
fearfully to the northern counties. In the sixteen coun-
ties to which he alluded, including the counties of Sussex,
Buckingham, Essex, Wilts, Southampton, and Dorset, the
average of daily wages in 182-1, was only ed. a.day.
In Kent it was ed., hut he had left that county out of
his calculation. In the twenty Northern and Welch
counties to which he had adverted, not manufactur-
ing, although he ought to state he included Lan-
cashire, and where none of those abuses of which
he complained prevailed-'—in those counties the aye-
raze at the same period was one shilling daily. This ought
to sliew that these abuses in the expenditure of the Poor
"Rates did not in reality benefit the people amongst whom
they prevailed. In the counties where the abuses did pre-
vail, the assessment of Poor Rates was 15s. a-head. In
the other, counties it was only Cs. In the former, the as-
sessment was 4s. in the pound at rack rent ; in the latter,
it was only 2s. Gd. If then, it should be practicable to
afford relief to the poor, and, at the same time, confer an
important benefit upon the, rich, he thought Parliament
called upon to apply itself with earnestness to carry any
feasible remedy in operation. From the data with which
he had furnished himself, and the greater part of which he
haft laid before the House, be felt justified in asserting,:
that during the last year alone, there might have been
effected a saving to the country of 810,0001. But there
were higher grounds on which this system required to be
amended. A due regard to the morals of the people de-
manded, for there could scarcely be entertained a doubt by
any who reflected seriously on the subject—that the system
at present in force was eminently productive of profli-
gacy. It was worthy of obervation, that whenever
wages were high, the rates were lower, and vice versa
—thus,' the present system proved a bonus (in low wages.
The Hon. Gentleman then made some quotations from the
Reports made by Committees of the l'louse on the subject
of the Poor Rates, and contended, from the statements
which they furnished, that the relation between supply and
demand, as respected labour, influenced the rates of wages,
and that temporary changes ought to be met by temporary
expedients. He then went on to show the inefficacy of an
Act of Parliament to effect au increase of the capital of

country, and thence inferred the impossibility of producing
by a legislative enactment that demand for labour, by
which alone the Poor Rates, under the present system,
could be kept within reasonable limits. He then entered
into several minute details, instancing the case of a single
parish, to prove that the imposition of a rate uniformly
had the effect_ of producing a proportionate want of em-
ployment, contending that the case of a parish was per-
fvotly applicable to a county, and of course to a kingdom.
The remedy which he should submit would be twofold—
first, to restore the law to its original state; secondly,
giving assistance and support to the poor during the un-
avoidable transitions consequent upon such a change. He
begged most distinctly to assure the House that' nothing
could be further• from his intentions than to 'proceed in
this matter with any degree of haste, the remedy to be at
all useful, must be gradual. One of the principal fee-
titres of this plan would be to produce such an effect as
would relieve the country from the necessity of maintain-
ing the number ofable bodied labourers, with whose support
it was at present burdened. These ahls bodied men naturally
divided themselves into two, classes; the new applicants for
parish relief, and those who might boon be expected to
become applicants, on the one hand ; and those, on the other,
who probably might not for some time he found in that si-
tuation. This latter class, he would take fur granted,
would be all single men ; then he thought that by giving
them a claim for parish work, leaving a certain fixed pro-
portion to their previous savings lodged in bank, while in
ordinary employmeut—that a considerable improvement
wopld be effected. Thus, for every four shillings that they
lodged in the Sayings pane:, he would confer upon each of
them the right of demanding from the overseers a week's
perish work. He was not so vain as to expect that his t►n-
aided effort could accomplish that which had baffled so many
who had gone before him. All that he then purposed was to
move, for leave to bring its a Bill—should that he granted,
he intended to propose that the Bill be read a first and
second time, and then referred to a Select Committee.--
Tl:ere was one important advantage almost certain to
ensue from the plan which he meant to propose, namely,
that all the able•bodied men would be numbered off from
those who could be properly included in that class, and thus
such as justly should form objects of his Right Hee.
Prie-,au emigration scheme. He then concluded by mov-
ing for leave to bring in a Bill to declare and amend the
existing laws relating to able-bodied paupers, and also, for
the better and more equitable rating of tenements under a
certain value.
Mt'. N. CALVERT seconded the motion.
Mr. PORTMAN entered into a variety of details re-
specting the operation of the Poor LaWs ; and concllided
by saying, that he should not oppose the Hon. Member's
proposition, although he did not think that any legislative
enactment would have had the effect so proposed.
Mr. SLANEY explained;
Mr. CRIPPS begged to thank the Hon. Member who
had brought the subject forward, although he. must say,

that in his opinion he did not think that any practical
benefit would accrue from the measure proposed by him.
Mr. BURRELL doubted also whether the proposed
measure would prove of utility. There was one proposal,
however, which would be impossible to carry into effect.
He alluded to that by which unmarried men were to lay,
or to have laid up for them, a fund saved from their
labours when employed, from which they should be pro.
portionately supplied when unemployed. Now, it would
he impossible for the labourer to lay up money, if, as he
feared was the case, he cever at any time got more than
enough to keep himself. Indeed, he saw no prospect of
relief from the evil which oppressed them except in emi-
gration.—(Hear.)
Mr. W. HORTON admitted the principle of the mea-
sure ; hut felt by no means confident of success in its
adoption, so long as the present superabundant population
overwhelmed them. No remedy would be effectual till
that superabundance was removed. Yet there were coun-
try gentlemen who exclaimed against emigration—who
called out that people were the wealth of a country, and
that to diminish them was to impoverish it. Those who
thought so, must be content to give thi) whole of their
property to the poor ; if they wished to preserve their
property they must discourage this pernicious system. The
poor must be made to regulate their marriages by the state
of their circumstances, as was done by every class in the
community, from the highest down to those who came
under the hateful influence of the Poor Rates. Some
Gentlemen said that the waste lands ought to he cultiva-
ted. Now all the effect of that would he to reduce rents.
But that would be be a little evil compared with that
which was now-suspended over the heads of the Cuuntry
Gentlemen ; their very existence as a body was involved
in the continuance of the present system of laws. He was
astonished at their apathy in not seeking some remedy to
the evil with which they were threatened. In his opinion
all remedies were futile till the law of England and Ireland
were assimulated upon this point. He did not mean to
propose the introduction of the English Poor Laws, far
from it ; but he should wish that the claims of the poor
to relief might he modified in such a manner as to check
their marriages.
Mr. R. COLBORNE thought much must be left to
the good sense and judgment of those who had put the
l'oor Laws into execution.

Mr. MONCK begged to dissent from one proposition
of the Hon. Member's (Mr. Slaney), viz. that of not pro-
viding for unemployed able-bodied labourers. Now, if the
'able-bodied labourer was refused relief, he Would soon, by
want, be rendered infirm, and thus become a much worse
burden than if relieved when in health. Perhaps, in this
enlightened age, the remedy he should propose would be
considered antideluvian, and laughed at; hut really, the
only thing, in his opinion, that would be effectual, would
be the establishment of a minimum of wages. Then, and
then only, they would have a minimum of human misery.
Mr. Secretary PEEL agreed in all that had been said
with respect to the vast importance of this subject. , Ile
agreed also that it was highly desirable that Government
should form a decided opinion upon it, but unfortunately it
was one of those subjects; which the more it was studied,
the more a man was convinced of the difficulty of coming
to a positive conclusion.—(Hear.)—He could not think
that the want of employment for the people of this country
arose from any cessation of productiveness, for within the
three last years there had, he would venture to say, been a
greater quantity both of agricultural and manufacturing
employment than in any other three preceding years in the
history of this country.—(Hear.)—How then was it, that
the increased rates were to be accounted for ? Did it
arise from the operation of the Poor Laws ? If so, how
came it that in Ireland, wLere no Poor Laws existed, they
were much worse off? In another part of the kingdom, he
meant Scotland, there was an intermediate system between
that of England and Ireland ; but there also there was dis-
tress, though not great. His impression was, that is the
artificial state of society in which we existed, there
was no remedy for the evil. If a new machine were
invented, the produce of this country might be in-
creased, as also the demand for it, and the demand for
manual labour might decline. This would produce tem-
porary distress, but they could only lament it, for prevent it
they could not. A remedy could not be devised for the exer-
cise of ingenuity. He did not, however, mean to throw oh-
structions in the way of the proposed Bill, on the contrary
it should have his cordial support--:but he begged to sug-
gest one thing to the Hon. Member who had introduced
it, viz.—not to confine his attention to the single point to
which it was now directed, but to direct it to the other
parts of the system, because one of the worst results of tak-
ing up a single point was the multiplication of laws, and
generally of law-suits. The propositions of the Hon.
Member were intimately connected with another which
was before the House, he meant that relative to the law of
settlement. What had been said by an Hon. Friend near
him was perfectly true, a great part of the evils of the
Poor Laws arose slut of the law of settlement. The great
difficulty in meddling -with the law, or of laying down a
general rule on these subjects, was the different states of
society in the agricultural and the manufacturing districts.
But certainly, unless the Hon. Member took the law of
settlement into consideration, it would be impossible for
him to put some of his ideas into practice. If, for instance,
he refused the able-bodied lahourer relief, they must give him
leave to carry his labour where he pleased. As the Bill
was intended to he sent for examination into a Commit-
tee, he trusted that the Hon. Member would then take
what he had begged to suggest, into his consideration.
He would not pronounce a more decided opinion till the
matter hail been more discussed ; but he begged, in com-
mon with the rest of the House, to return the Hon. Gen-
tleman thanks for the manner in which he hid brought
the subject forward, and begged to assure hint that he had
his best wishes for his success.

Mr. W. WHITMORE had no doubt that distress
existed in some agricultural parishes, and for that distress
he thought emigration the best remedy. He knew that
plans were now going on for aiding the emigration of the
unemployed poor of five parishes in Sussex, and that firm
expectations were entertained that the measure would
bring relief to all parties. He trusted that the Hob. Gen-
tleman to whom the House was so much indebted would
persevere in his efforts; for be had no doubt that an ade-
quate remedy for this, as well as for every other evil under
which the country suffered, would ultimately be found.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
EMIGRATION.

Air. W. HORTON rose in pursuance to his notice to
move for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the emigra-
tion of paaspers_ to their parishes. It appeared from the
Report of the Committee, that one hundred thousand
paupers, men, women, and children, could not be lodged,
fed, and clothed, for less than an average of N. each per
annum. The interest of the money calculated as the cost
of sending out that number of emigrants was 60,0001.,
and they should therefore effect an actual saving of the dif-
ference 0f240,000/. in the first year. But then it was said
that the cost ought not to be defrayed by the country at
large, but by those who were relieved from the evil ;
and that there would be great difficulty in ascertaining
who were the parties that ought to pay it. In England
there could he no difficulty, because the Pours' Rate sup-
plied an index to the parties, who woulk be relieved at
once. In Ireland, too, he was ready to prove that a large
Poors' Rate was actually paid in one shape or another. lie
should not go more at large into this past of the subject
then, because it was his intention, during the remaining
part of the Session, to bring forward a substantive mea-
sure for a pecuniary grani to be applied to the purposes of
emigration, upon which he should take the sense of the
Liouse. He would only repeat his question to his Right
Hon. Friend—whether the presence of 100,000 more
labourers than there was a demand for did not operate as
a tax, and whether their removal would not be a relief to
the community at large, provided the vacuum was not
filled up ? The Right rion. Gent. having concluded an
extract from the Committee's Report, hoped there would
be no objection to his present proposal for leave to bring
in a Bill to enable parishes in England, under given regu-
lations, and for a limited period, to mortgage their poor-
rates for the purpose of assisting voluntary emigration.
Mr. WARBURTON bore testimony to the great in-
dustry and seal of the Right Hon, Gentleman, but could
not concur at present ire the reasoning upon which his
motion was founded.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN thought that the ?lan
was liable to many objections, but that the pet mission to
parishes to borrow on their Poor Rates was one of the
most reprehensible powers which could, under any circum-
stances, be given to them.
Mr. HUSKISSON expressed Isis perfect readiness and
anxiety to enter upon the discussion of his Right Hon.
Friend's propositions, for no one could doubt the immense
importance of the considerations and the interests which
they involved, however he might dissent from some part
of the reasons upon which they were founded, or from the
conclusions to which he had come.
Air. CALCRAFT was of opinion that it was due both
to the Right Hon. Mover and the Committee to allow the
Bill to be brought in.
Mr. A. BARING thought the subject involved in con-
siderable difficulty, but thought that his Right Honourable
Friend ought to have leave to exhibit his Bill, in order to
a. proper examination of ice machinery. He strongly ap-
proved of emigration, but it should be voluntary, and
every preparation should be made as to location, &c. be-
forehand, as well as aid in the way of transport and other
facilities, by the Colonial Department.
Mr. Seel etary PEEL said that his Right Hon. Friend,

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