The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-03 00:00:00

GAME-LAWS.

Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY wished to ask the Hon.
Member for Salford, who had, he believed, in the absence
of the Hon. Member for Durham, the management of
the question of the game laws, when it was his intention
to nominate the Committee.
Mr. BROTHERTON said it had been his intention to
move the appointment of the Committee that night, but
understanding that there would be some opposition to
that course, he should postpone it for a few days.
WAYS AND MEANS.

On the order OfTheda;fur going into a Committee of
Ways and Means,
Mr. ROEBUCK said ho wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) a question, of which he had
given notice. The subject to which he would call his
attention was the negotiation now going on between this
country and the United States on the subject of the
Oregon territory. He wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Gentleman had any objection, on the part of
her Majesty's Government, to lay the negotiation, as
far as it had proceeded before the House. The reason
which induced him to ask that question was to be found
in the present state of circumstances in the United
States with regard to this very question. He did not
desire to cast any slur on the conduct of a great nation
like the United Statos, or to use any language which
might excite angry feelings; but it could not be unknown
to the Right Hon. Gentleman—for it was known to all
the world—that a Bill had already passed the House of
Representatives with regard to the Oregon territory.
He always considered that the Oregon territory which
had been already the subject of so much dispute was yet
to be considered as a matter on which no settlement had
been made, in fact, an open ques on He understood
that it was likely a Bill would pass through the House
of Representatives for the purpose of making the Oregon
what was commonly called " territory." The course
pursued by the House of Representatives seemed
a most extraordinary one. The English were
not a people accustomed to bluster or express
themselves in a bullying manner, whilst negotiations
were yet pending ; but it must be apparent to everybody
that this was a most extraordinary proceeding. Foreign
nations should know whether these proceedings arose
from the weakness of the Government, or from other
causes. He thought it became us to watch attentively
the progress of events in America, and whilst we trusted
to their probity not to divest ourselves of the means of
protecting our own interests. If he were to express an
opinion it would be that the United States had no right
at all to any territory west of the Rocky Mountains.
At present ho would not carry the matter further
than express a strong feeling against the mode of
proceeding, and to ask the Government if they were
determined to leave us in the dark regarding the pro-
ceedings in the United States.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Ron. and Learned Gen-

tleman had correctly stated the proceedings which had
taken place in the United States in reference to the
Oregon territory. A convention bad taken place be-
tween this country and America, in 1818, for ten years,
guaranteeing that neither party were to occupy territory
for ten years. The term expired in 1828, and a fresh
agreement was entered into of the same nature, which
expired in 1838, without any definite arrangement
having been made. With respect to the question as to
the negotiation with the United States, he was sure the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would agree with him,
that it was not proper to disclose the progress of the nego-
tiation. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman must feel that
our relations were not with the House of Representatives.
While he quite weed with the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman as to the impropriety of using such language, he
trusted the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and the House
would not infer that her Majesty's Government was not
deeply sensible of the importance of the question.
Mr. DIVETT asked the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) if, in connexion with this subject he had seen a
remarkable expression contained in the work of M. de
Moprat, now publishing in Paris, on California, in which
he states that he had examined the Oregon question,
and states his conviction of the perfect justice of the
English claim. The French writer said:—" II faut
avouer que cette fois la raison et le droit, sont de leur
cote."
Sir R. PEEL was understood to say that he had not
seen the work alluded to, and that the Hon. Member
should have given him notice of his question.
Mr. BLEWETT said it was rather singular the in-
formation should have come from the United States in-
stead of through their own Government.
Sir R. PEEL thought her Majesty's Government
were quite justified in withholding the correspondence.
WAYS AND MEANS.
On the Motion for reading the order of the day for
going into Committee of Ways and Means,
Sir W. CLAY having presented a petition from a
nhmber of sugar refiners, relating to the change in the
sugar duties, said, the amendment, of which he had
given notice, would be most appropriately moved on the
third resolution, and he trusted the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not press them through so rapidly as
not to afford proper time for the discussion of his Amend-
ment.
The order of the day was then read, the Speaker left
the Chair, and the House resolved itself into a Com-

mittee of Ways and Means.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in addition to the notice he had on the paper with
respect to the sugar duties, there was another to which
he wished shortly to call the attention of the House;
it was with respect to the Consolidated Fund Bill.
In consequence of Easter falling at so early a period,
of the year there would not be the necessary
funds, and as the resolution was an ordinary vote, and
one to which there was no objection, he hoped, as that
resolution was the foundation of a Bill, the House would
allow it to pass without any opposition.
WIND :)W -TAX.
On the qestion that the resolution that 8,000,0001. be
granted to her Majesty,
Mr. HUME rose. He wished to know whether the
Right Hon. Baronet, upon the Committee moved for by
the Hon. Member for Bath to inquire into window duties
being appointed, he should have objection to allow that
Committee to take into its consideration the propriety of
substituting a house-tax for it? He had looked lately
seriously into the question, and he felt no doubt that the
most serious consequences arose from the window• tax.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the question
was one of great importance, and one that he
could not satisfactorily discuss in answer to a
question. It must be remembered that there were
in existence at the same time, a house and a window
duty. The House had at that time the option of taking
off the window or the house duty ; it preferred taking
off the house duty. He did not think it would be wise
to discuss the question further now.
Mr. HUME said it should be recollected that when
half the window-tax was taken off, it was promised the
other half should be taken off also at a future period.
He, therefore, thought that was uo ground for the
Right Hon. Gentleman declining to answer the question.
Captain PECHELL wished to know if the Hon. Gen-
tleman had any objection to lay before the House the
number of appeals which had been made against the
window duty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
such a return would be attended with so much difficulty
and trouble that would be almost impossible to make it.
Mr. HUME expressed his surprise that no return
was kept at the tax• office of the number of appeals.
Were there no records kept of these matters, if
not there was something wrong in the management.
He would respectfully submit that if those documents to
which he alluded could not be had, there was something
seriously wrong in that department. He conceived that
a correct record ought to be kept, for he was aware that
a great deal of vexation and trouble attended this mode
of taxation, and therefore, on that ground, he was the
more surprised that no record of the discipline he men-
tioned had been kept.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
_ .

appeared to him that the Honourable Member was
not aware of the state of the law in this respect. Until
a very late period the parochial authorities were not
obliged by law to keep any such records ; and, there-
fore, not having kept them, it would be impossible to
supply them now satisfactorily.
Mr. BERNALL said, as the House was on the sub-
ject, he would beg to call the attention of the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government to the
subject of the general mode of collecting the taxes.
—(Hear, hear.) There was a crying evil in
the shape of what was called "Surcharges." This was
a great cause of complaint • but those who were the
victims of it were often compelled to bear with it, and
submit to the sacrifice, as their business would not
permit their attendance and loss of time required by an
appeal. Then, with regard to the collectors of the
assessed taxes, he knew several of them who, though
they paid but sixty or seventy pounds a-year as a per
centage, paid as much to a deputy, while the
collector explained by saying be undertook the
office with a view to procuring a few addi-
tional customers. This was his reason for asking
why should any man undertake the responsible duty of
a tax-collector unless there was some inducement to
him much stronger than the remuneration he received?
and hence the abuses of the present system,
which he conceived ought to inquired into.
He thought the whole system was bad, and ought to be
revised.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought the present system of collec-
tion was bad. In one case which respected himself, when
he asked where he would pay in the tax, he was told that
the collector attended in his office only once a week, and
when he inquired why that was so, he was told by the
collector that he was only paid by a small per centage,
and could not afford to devote any more time.
Mr. HUME thought that no collector ought to be al-
lowed to appoint a deputy. He knew in his own parish
that when the collector sent in the amount of the tax,
he wrote on the other side that he had tea, or salt, or
candles, or something else to sell, and in this way he
thought he could get customers. He thought this ought
not to be allowed. He thought that the appointment
should be made by the Government, and that there should
be no intermediate appointment by the Commissioners.
He hoped that some Hon. Member would make a motion
on the subject.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS was surprised to hear his Hon.
Friend complain that mere taxes were collected too
cheaply. If the Government could get proper security
for the safety of the money, he thought they were per-
fectly right in getting the collection made as cheaply as
possible. Ile did not see how the Chancellor of the
Exchequer could prevent persona from endeavouring to
promote their own business while engaged in the col-
lection of the taxes, and be was moreover of opinion that
he had no right to do so.
Mr. HUME had not objected to the cheapness but to
the mode of the collection. Wbat he complained of
was that those persons who did not deal with the tax-
gatherer were liable to be surcharged.
SUGAR DUTIES.

The resolution having been put from the Chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
it would not be necessary for him to occupy the time of
the House at any great length, inasmuch as, on previous
discussions, they had decided on the propositions which
ho should have to submit to them. They had decided
that a differential duty should be imposed in favour of
colonial sugar; and with regard to foreign sugar, they
had decided on the imposition of a duty of 10s. 6d. in
favour of sugar, the produce of free labour, over
that which was slave-grown. Only one ether point had
arisen which had been discussed on the motion of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Beverley, the other evening.
It appeared with regard to that point that it was the
opinion of the House that further time should be
given for the consideration of the question, and that
it would be better that the consideration of the
subject should be deferred until the Committee on the
Bill. Until that period, therefore, he would not enter
into details on the subject. With respect to the intro-
duction of the words " sugar of equal quality to clayed,"
he did, not see that there was any objection. But,
with respect to the furthe words suggested, he was
still of the opinion he had expressed the other
evening, that the insertion of these words would
create greater difficulties than their omission. As
these words were understood at present, he believed
there would be little objection to them; but, at the same
time, having made inquiries on the subject, both with
respect to the practice of London and other parts of the
country, he should be prepared in Committee to state
with decision to what the Government had come,
and the grounds of that decision. He had al-
ready stated that tha 14th of the present
month was the period at which ho proposed that the
resolutions should take effect, thus allowing one month
for those who had had sugar on hand to dispose of their
stock.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
proposed the amended scale of duties to come into opera-
tion on the 14th of March.

Mr. WILLIAMS had hoped that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would consent to extend the time be-
yond the 14th of March. If ne did not he could assure
him a great and ruinous loss would be sustained by
thousands of persons who dealt in sugar. He still
trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would consent
to extend the time to the Ist of April, or, at least, to the
25th of March.
Mr. HAWES was quite sure the House, when a few
simple facts were laid before them, would see the pro-
priety of modifying and altering the plan proposed by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, whic h was full of hardship.
The Hon. Member then read a letter from an eminent mer •
cantile house in the City, in which the writer sought for him-
self, and on behalf of his trade, permission to clear off
duty paid stock before the Right Hon. Gentleman's
plan came into operation. This writer declared that
in the event of the Bill being carried, his house would
ose to the amount of 2,000/. The house was the most
respectable in tho city of London. With regard to what
had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, ho

understood that he would pass his resolutions through the
Committee, reserving to himself the opportuity of statias
his precise intention with regard to the duties. If he
was still going to maintain the principle of a distinctive
duty according to the quantity, he was bound to say se
to the House. If, on the other hand, he would admit
there was a practical difficulty in the way of arriving
at a satisfactory arrangement as to ascertainililj
the quality of the sugar, then he was bone
to state the fact, that they might know what
the were to do. He did not know vibaC
course the Hon. Member for Beverley (Mr. Hogg),
intended to pursue ; he seemed very acquiesces"
and satisfied. But the Government had it.
tempted to make the duty dependent on qualiti
before, and it had entirely failed. Were they
going to depart from this principle? if they were
he would give the Chancellor of the Exchequer all t,1,1,1;
time that he might require before he informed
House.
Mr. THORNELY said if it were possible to provide
all the quantity of sugar for the supply of the countrY
from the port of London, then it would be practicable to
arrive at a classification of the qualities of sugar.j,
But as they imported sugar into the ports of nu"
Liverpool, Greenock, Dublin, Cork, Limerick,
Belfast, he was persuaded that it was impossible.
All experience went against it. The Hon. Member for
Beverley instanced a case where Mr. Huskissont
attempted to classify the sugar duties and Iv
failed. Latterly it had been attempted to
tea, since the opening of the China trade with this cone.
3 There was also the case of cotton wool—it tvasl°,4
Sometime at an ad valorem duty, but that was found It
to answer. There was so much detention of goods tinu'
those duties that the merchants came to Lord Alt
when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and pill
of him to fix the duty where he did. He objected alta'
gether to the differential duties.
Mr. HOGG was aware of the impracticabilitY of
thei

making a satisfactory standard, but he trusted •
would wait and see what the standard was tiss
was intended to be brought forward. If it "it,
satisfactory all well and good, if it was not then let it .0
objected to; for his own part he was willing to visit ti.
he heard what the, proposal of the Government
Under these circumstances he (Mr. Hawes) tht4gbe
that it was well worthy of the consideration of t
Government. He was not of opinion that the matte
should thus be given up ; but, on the contrstrk,
he would assure the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. ili°ggois
that he felt it his duty to continue the fight, and
discontinue the battle, but divide the House again "*"

again, not once, but a dozen times if necssary.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERrosy,
and was

[LEFT SPEAKING.]
TATTERSALL'S.—THIS-EVENIO.
Six oCLoog•

CHESTER CUE.
10 to 1 agist Cataract
13 to 1 agst Semiseria
16 to 1 agst Era
20 to 1 agst Winesour
20 to 1 agst Zanoni
28 to 1 agst Yheomun ac Knuck
33 to 1 apt Agriculture
35 to 1 agat Pug
40 to 1 agst The Pride of Kildare
50 to 1 agst Foig-a-ballagh.
50 to 1 agst Sorella
DERBY.
10 to 1 agst Alarm
15 to 1 agst Idas
16 to I agst Kedger
16 to 1 agst Cobweb colt
25 to 1 agst Newsmonger
30 to 1 agst Mentor
30 to 1 agst Clear-the-Way
30 to 1 agst Ironmaster
33 to 1 agst Pantasa
35 to 1 agst Anti-Repealer
35 to 1 agst Old England
40 to 1 agst Annandale
45 to 1 agat Fitz-Allan
CONVEYANCE OF MILITARY

RAIL WAY. tboriti
A new regulation has just been issued, under 161-ofilef
from the Horse Guards, relative to the conveys-neds 15
Majesty's forces by railway, in virtue of the Act 7
snTbat
toria, cap. 85, clause 12, by which it was enacted, tit"
railway companies which had been, or should be,
by any Act of that or any future session, sor vrilLbutiasu'es
Act of that or any future session should have °Ze pea
shall obtain, any extension or amendment of 4' or rbi
conferred by their previous Acts, or any of theAt°'orisso,o
been or should be authorised to do any act unaunifetbe
provisions of previous Acts, are bound to provide *Sloss
ibs
as herein mentioned." In consideration of such to
following memorandum of terms has been subunlisoss
companies hereafter mentioned and agreed to V, 407
" Officers to be conveyed at fares not exceeding 2°'iielt,:‘,
in first-class carriages, each officer to be allowed 1-cbil!-
baggage free of charge ; soldiers, their wives, es 'So
above twelve years, to be conveyed at fares Ilder tsiel
ing ld. per mile ; children above three and un-be,sil
half price; those under three years of age are t° cynic
free ; regimental baggage, 2d. per ton per of _„if
soldiers and their families to be allowed 501' po",)s
gage each ; carriages to be provided with seats, 3_„" -010''
protected again 4 the weather; soldiers or their faTorigity
cannot produce a route or other satisfactory 00,0
proceed by this conveyance, to be considered silgresol.4o
passengers, and not entitled to benefit of this eV
In order to avoid the risk of advancing money jo„,,ed
not trustworthy, Directors to accept in lieu c" sSsr
payment of fares, passage warrants or ticke.toicae
by, proper officers, ordering the conveyance, Jo Fps
rants to be provided at the expense of tP
and payable monthly. And whenever necessa+.7 res,
sto
fbe
officers, soldiers, , &c., or their baggage or , 0
_,.‘•
company to provide the requisite accommodatl:o' o'oo
usual hours of their trains starting." The c00L1'11,0.6001
ing immediately under the clause in estion are' niece
Western, Birmingham and Derby, forth
Counties, North Union, Eastern Counties, Bristol fisc7,ty
cester, Edinburgh and Glasgow, Grand Junction, 3- so'oci
and Preston, London and Brighton, London :Ora 06
Western, Manchester and Birmingham, ManebefOsliffole'd
Leeds, Newcastle and DarlingtOn Junction, TAP'
Manchester, South- Eastern, Maryport and C_,,sr,i'a3-4,
Yarmouth and Norwich, York and North Awl -0 K, PA
railways hereafter sanctioned by Parliament, al°"„ 0-fiv
lines which require additional powers therefroplidt
lowing companies, although not compelled t° ,ioisttcjA
the terms of the 12th clause of the Act, have iniLi gift sr
willingness to accede thereto :—The Liverpool ~,J7,olsPasS4'
ter, Durham and Sunderland, Hull and Selby, ,•'' of Pie
Carlisle, Stockton and Darlington, Great Norw 00'
Birmingham and Gloucester, Bristol and Gl°_,llcsed 510
castle, North Shields, and Tynemouth, Chest
head, Preston and Wyre, Bodmin and Waaeerid
and Leigh, Bolton and Preston, lianchnstererieg, b
ev
Sheffield and Rotherham, Whitby and rit-A;01,„
and Drogheda, Dublin and Kingston, Ulster,,otc, pee
Dalkeith, Edinburgh, Leith, and Granton • Gl',?end
nock ; Ayr, Dundee, and Arbroath ; Arbroath
and Slammannan.

__j:_