The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-09 00:00:00

sition to this Bill.—(Cheers.) No men were happier at draw-
ing up petitions and other documents, just steering clear of
absolute falsehood, but misrepresenting everything which, as it
appeared to them, militated against their own interests.
—(Loud cheers.) But he would come to his last
topic. The Bill he was then recommending had
been represented as an attack upon railway property. Why,
since the Committee had been sitting, since the reports had
been made—yes, since that very Bill had been brought in, rail-
way property had been rising in value.—(Cheers.) The shares
of the Great Western Railway had risen 51. The railway
market had never been mere buoyant ; and at the present mo-
ment there were no less than fifteen new railway schemes
coming to Parliament, whose united capital would not
be less than 20,000,0001.—(Hear.) But he would argue the
question no further. Neither the Committee nor the Govern-
ment had done anything, or contemplated anything, to the in-
jury of existing railway property, or to shake public confidence
in it. All they wanted was, to legislate for the remote future.
After the statements he had made—the facts he had cited—
the motives he had laid bare—he was sure that House was not
to be deluded, and that nothing would induce it to defer this
Bill to next session. He knew the power of railway compa-
nies, and had ever felt satisfied that with justice on their
side they were irresistible. But knowing that justice was on
the side of Government, and feeling it was its duty to interfere
now, rather than later, or when obstacles would be increased,
he did not shrink from the encounter. And he approached his
task with the better heart because he knew the object of the
Government was to secure and to strengthen property, and not
to loosen or undermine it ' • and also because, whatever noise or
boast might be made by certain interested parties, he was
satisfied that railway power had not yet risen so high, and that
Parliamentary authority had not sunk so low, as to endanger the
success of a Bill which looked only to the great, and general,
and permanent interests of the country at large.—( Cheers.)
Mr. ENTWISLE said he felt the great; disadvantage of
following such a speaker as the Right Hon. President of the
Board of Trade, especially after the very able and comprehen-
sive speech which he had just delivered.—( Hear, hear.) He
felt it his duty, however, in this early stage of the proceeding,
to protest against any measure which might have the effect of
ultimately bringing the Government into the market as
competitors with the railway companies. The Bill, too, gave
a complete power as to future railways, and he doubted the
propriety of giving so extensive an authority to any Govern-
ment. By and bye, the country would be one complete net-
work of railway, and to grant the Government the powers
now sought by the Government would be to increase its
patronage and influence to an almost fearful extent. It should
be recollected, too, that most of the railway proprietors were
interested in several lines, and to his knowledge it frequently
happened that the most successful of the railways only re-
turned to those proprietors sufficient to pay a very moderate
per centage indeed upon the aggregate capital they had em-
barked in them. He did not deny that the powers given to
railway companies were extensive—very extensive ; but the
question was, were they excessive—were they unnecessary—
were they uncalled for; and, above all, were they badly used?
He had had some years' experience in the working of a
railway, and he would assert, most confidently, that these
confessedly large powers were not abused, and that their ex-
istence was indispensable to the safe and prosperous conduct of
those undertakings. He cared nothing for the control of Go-
vernment—that might be a proper thing to vest in a Govern-
ment; but he protested against interference with the property
of railways—against anything, indeed, save supervi4on. The
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had alluded to the
evidence of a friend of his (Captain Lewes) as to
the economy that would be exercised in the ma-
nagement of railways should Government hereafter
become the purchasers of some of them. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman's argument was based upon false pre-
mises. For the witness alluded to had spoken of the economy
that might be introduced on the supposition that Government
was to become the purchasers of all, and the managers
of all, the railways in the kingdom. Great stress was
laid upon the accommodation that ought to be pro-
vided for the poor man. But for his part he be-
lieved that those who clamoured so loudly about the poor
man were in fact but striving for themselves. Many and
many were the gentlemen he had seen travelling in the third
class carriages, and they, in his opinion, were the parties
who were, really agitating for this cheap and comfortable
transit, having these thoughts about themselves, though
their words were all about the poor and the hard-working.
It was improper, in his opinion, that Government should have
such a power vested in them as would enable them to cripple
private capital and useful speculation. He would give his
most stedfast opposition to the Bill. They ought to allow time
for the railway public to speak for themselves. He would
move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.
The amendment having been secended,
Colonel SIB I'HORP complained of having been erro-
neously reported in the morning papers. It was represented
that he said on a late occasion—the Poor-law debate—that he
had no confidence in her Majesty's Ministers. That was
not true—he had the greatest confidence in them, and believed
the Bill they now brought forward would be productive of great
public advantage. The fault he found with the Bill was, that
it did not apply to existing railroads as well as to those which
were to be still formed. He did not drive in railroads—he
bated the very name of railroads.—(Laughter.) He did not
think the present railroad speculations would be beneficial ; he
thought they were dangerous, delusive, and unsatisfactory, and
opposed to the constitution of the country.—( Laughter.) With
these feelings he would give his fearless and cordial assent to
the Bill. He did not wish te have the measure postponed to
the next session of Parliament ; he would say beware of man-
traps and spring guns.—( Laughter. ) The Bill ought to be at
once discussed.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would trespass but a very
short time on the attention of the House. He did not agree
with Hon. Members who had spoken that night in condemning
railway directors and railway proprietors—he thought the spirit
of enterprise which they evinced, and the practical manner in
which they carried it out, most creditable to themselves and
advantageous to the public.—( Hear, hear.) In point of fact,
the railway companies of the country possessed a vast mono-
poly. That monopoly the Government ought jealously to look
to, and he felt regret, therefore, that the present Bill had, not
been introduced before. The principle of this Bill was to;un-
fetter the Legislature with respect to railway companies. ,This,
he thought, they ought to do with respect to those railways
which were still left in their power—he meant those compa-
nies who, in future sessions, should corns to Parliament for
power to construct new railways. He must say, how-
ever, that he thought that a very strong ground
ought to be shown before the Government took the
management of any railway in the country. He looked
upon the revision of fares as an experiment more likely to be
successful than that of the purchase of railways.—( Hear,
hear.) He must, however, confess that it was highly important
that the power of purchase should be maintained. He thought
that less injustice would be done to the railway interest by the
interference of the Government, than any other interest with
respect to which the Government might attempt to legislate.
He was of opinion the principle of this Bill was one which, the
House might safely adopt.
Lord SANDON said, he had certainly, on the reading of
.the Bill the first time, come to the conclusion that it was in-

tended to give the Government the absolute and unconditional
control over all the railways. He was glad, however, to hear
the explanation of the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of
the Board of Trade, and after what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Gentleman, he should certainly feel justified in
supporting the principle of this Bill, and he should, therefore,
vote for the second reading.
Mr. M. PHILIPS could not feel himself justified in
voting for the second reading of this Bill. He thought 4 was
a Bill which interfered with private property, and was, one
which was likely to embarrass commercial operations, and to
limit their extent. He fully participated in the opinions which
had been formed out of doors with respect to this Bill, al-
though he was not a railway proprietor, except to so small an
extent as to preclude the possibility f its influencing him in
giving a vote either for or against this Bill. He found him-
self therefore compelled to give his opposition to the Bill, as
nothing could ever induce him to give the Government of a
great commercial country like this, a power in such a matter.
He could not see the policy, either prospectively or at present,
of the Government taking any power in the matter. •
Mr. PARKER rose amidst loud cries of " Divide, diiide."
He objectedto this commencement of a principle for giving the
Government a power to enter into railway affairs, in the cha-
racter of commercial speculators.
Mr. SHEIL rose to ask whether the Dublin and Cashel
Railway would come under the operation of this Bill ?
Mr. GLADSTONE—Yes.
Mr. SHEIL did not think it was equitable it should. The
money was invested by the shareholders without cognisance of
the intentions of the Board of Trade. He contended that
money already invested, as in the Cashel Railway, was to be re-
garded as a railway already in existence. Every railway in
-Ireland, with the single exception of the Dublin one, only five
miles in length, would fall within the operation of the Bill. In
England there were above 2,000 miles of line exceptedl; and
in the sister island every railway, with the single exceptiOn he
bad stated, would come under its operation. By the passing
of this Bill they would be covering the country with anomalies.
--(Great laughter.) The whole Bill was a monstrous awl-
maly.—( Great laughter.) It was giving more power into the
hands of Government by founding a principle copied from con-
tinental countries. They could not in the commercial
history of this country, show a single case of a similar charac-
ter to the present to the present time. He would therefore
oppose the second reading.
Mr. CARDWELL said that the last speaker had risen to
ask a question respecting the Cashel and Dublin Railway,
which he (Mr. Cardwell) from being connected with that
railway, would be enabled to answer. The Bill in question
was not yet passed through Parliament, and he thought they
had no reason to complain of the operations of this
measure. He was certain that if the interests of
these great railways, which were valuable, not only
on private but on public grounds, were to suffer from the
operations of this Bill, it would be more from the jealously of
the parties themselves than from any bad tendency in the mea-
sure, He would give the measure his cordial support.
Mr. F. T. BARING said though it had been Called a
shallow and a miserable, excuse by the Right Hon. President
of the Board of Trade to attempt to throw this Bill over on
account of the lateness of the session, he should not shrink
from stating that as his reason for desiring delay, more espe-
cially, when he could, with truth, state, that through that large
blue book, then upon the table, it had been impossible, with all
his industry and best efforts, to wade.—( Hear, hear.;) For
his part, besides wishing, on the ground of the late-
ness of the session, to have the Bill postponed, he
did not hesitate to' say that he differed with the very
principle embodied in it. That principle was totally at
variance with all the rules which has hitherto been re-
cognised as the guides and guardians of British enter-
prise. If the Board of Trade was to have this extraordinary
control, let it be upon cause shown; but cause had not been
shown—necessity was not proved. He would certainly vote
against the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. BROTH ERTON moved the adjournment of the debate.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment
Against it ....
Majority
The debate was then resumed.

Mr. HINDLEY thought more time ought to be given to
consider this question.
Mr. BRIGHT then moved the adjournment of the debate.
Sir R. PEEL expressed his regret that the minority. should
not defer to the opinion expressed b' a large majority. Of
course, it was in the power of the minority to defeat any
motion, by moving repeated adjournments. He thought,
however, that it was a bad practice, and quite indefensible on
the present occasion.
After some discussion, the debate was adjournedto Thursday.
The Charitable Loan Societies (Ireland) Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Drainage of Lands Bill was read a second time.
The Canal Companies Bill passed through Committee, and
was ordered to be read a third time on Thursday week.
PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ELIOT moved for leave to bring in a Bill to continue
for one year the Act 2d and 3d Will. IV. intitled an Act to
restrain, in certain cases, party processions in Ireland. The
Bill was only to extend to next June, and he had hopes_that
ultimately they would be enabled to do away with the Bill
altogether.
Mr. Al. J. O'CONNELL expressed his satisfaction at the
Bill being limited in its operations to so short a period.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill; and the House
adjourned at Half-past_One o'clock.

. At the Liverpool Police-court, the other dal, one
• • • •
min" was fined 9i: 6d., and another 55., for smoking in
the street, opposite.iyarehouses stowed with cotton.