The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-02 00:00:00

prevailed in England, and it was important Mr. MJ. O'CONNELL agreed with the Hon. Gam-
that her Majesty's Government should know tleman in thinking the Bill a most injudicious one, and
whether the House approved the principle. The Bill calculated to produce the greatest social evils—greater
provided a new franchise, and he must, therefore, perse- still if possible than the existence of secret societies.
vere in asking the House to pronounce its opinion on Mr. SHAW supported the Bill in its present form.
the principle of the measure, reserving themselves as to Mr. I'. B. C. smut' thought the objections urged
details. He believed if the Government had abandoned against the Bill on the other side very strong, but yet if
the Bill on the former occasion, they would have been the objecti.inable clauses were withdrawn, how could the
taunted then with offering an insult to Ireland. He Goverment obtain cognisance of those illegal societies?
hoped the House would not consent to the motion of the The Government could only obtain cognisance of the
Hon. Member, but that it would allow her Majesty's existence of those societies through informers, and
Government to have the sense of the House and the though he thought the greatest caution was necessary,
opinions of Members connected with Ireland, on this in order to prevent the inculpation of innocent persons,
Bill. he considered that the exercise of due discretion, on the
part of the Executive, as well as the exemplary punish-
ment which such informers would receive, would be suffi
cient to prevent the evils complained of. He must sup-
port the Bill in its present form.
Mr. BERNAL thought it very serious that a person
should be convicted for having a pass-word knowingly
in his pocket. He thought it better that the clause
should be omitted altogether.
Mr. SHAW thought the word "knowingly" was the
best protection that could be given to the accused. If
he could suggest another word he would do so.
Sir,J. GRAHAM thought that this measure was abso-
lutely necessary, and if they rejected these words in the
clause, they would reject the whole measure. Consider-
ing the quarter from which this measure emanated, the
high constitutional authority by which it was supported,
and the causes which led to its continuance, he entreated
the House not to reject it. The object' of the Bill' was
common to both sides, and as it was of importance that
the measure •should be passed unanimously. He hoped
the Hon. Gentleman would think twice before he divided
the Committee under these circumstances.
Sir D. NORREYS though the Right Hon. Gentleman
had very adroitly confounded a portion of the clause
with the whole clause. As to the clause itself, the Hon.
Gentlemen on his side of the House were as much in fa-
vour of it as gentlemen opposite, but he did not think it
necessary that the whole clause should be rejected, be-
cause there were two words which, in his opinion, ought
to be thrown out.
Mr. ESTCOURT thought that the word " knowingly"
operated favourably for the prisoner, because it showed
that the mere possession of the pass-word was not suffi-
cient to constitute guilt, but that something additional
must be proved.
Mr. MORE O'FERRAL thought that this Bill was
necessary when it was introduced, but he did not think
it was npcessary to the same extent now. Many eminent
persons had been convicted under the Bill. He believed
there was no necessity for the Bill. He should there-
fore move that the Chairman now report progress.
OR the question being put,
Mr. SHELL said that he thought the possession of the
document ought to be made evidence of the crime, and
not the crime itself. He did not wish to shelter secret
societies, for they were the curse of the country,
no matter to what party they belonged.
Lord ELIOT said that he believed the measure was
necessary, and that he never before heard that secret so-
cieties did not exist in Ireland.
Mr. MORE O'FERRAL explained.
Sir J. GRAHAM begged the Committee to remark
that the Right Hon. Gentleman had said this measure
was necessary when the late Government had the re-
sponsibilities of office, but now that her Majesty's present
Government was in office, the Right Hon. Gentleman did
not think it necessary.
Colonel RAWDON said the Right Hon. Baronet was
hardly justified in throwing all the responsibility on that
side of the House.— (Hear, hear.) They had come down
for the purpose of discussing the Registration Bill, and
they now found themselves engaged in discussing the
Unlawful Oaths Bill, to which he entertained strong ob-
jections.—(Hear, hear.) Yet they were told, when
called upon to discuss the Bill thus unexpectedly,
that if it were thrown out, they must take the
responsibility. He threw back that aspersion, in
the strongest language the forms of the House
would permit. They had heard a great deal of late
about Ministerial responsibility. He must say that after
the conduct of her Majesty's Attorney-General he did
not place much reliance on that responsibility. He
should cordially support the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
In reply to a question from Sir D. NORREYS,
Sir J. GRAHAM said the Government would not
consent to the proposed alteration, because they held
it would render the Bill altogether inoperative.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL could not understand why,
if that were the case, it was only proposed that the clause
should exist for one year ?
After a few words from Mr. V. STUART,

Mr. V. SMITH said he had no doubt that the Govern-
ment was asked to postpone the second reading of the
Bill. But that was not the question raised by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury ; the question was whether it was
fair to ask the House to enter into a discussion which
could be of no use ? The Bill had been printed and
circulated, and had excited great dissatisfaction in the
country to which it was to be applied. Every information
with respect to the Bill had been given. The advice he
should tender to the Irish Members was that they
should not say a word on the subject of the Bill—
(Hear, hear)—for, if they should pledge themselves to
any part of the measure, and next session think
proper to vote against it, they would certainly be
" Hansarded" out of their opinions.—(Cheers and
laughter.) They had made no progress with the County
Courts Bill, with the Poor-law Bill, and there were
complaints from the country gentlemen, loud upon this
side of the House, and, if not loud, deep upon the other,
at being kept in town from their magisterial business to
attend a useless discussion.
Lord ELIOT called upon the Hon. Gentleman to
state what clauses in the Bill were an insult to Ireland,
The object was to increase their franchise and not di-
minish it.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL had come to the House pre-
pared to discuss the Bill. He came there not to defend
statements made out of the House, but in discharge of
his duty as a Member of Parliament. The Government
had ruled that House during the present session with
such a rod of iron that it had not occurred to him that
the course that had been adopted would be pursued.
The Bill, instead of being a benefit, would be a great
injury to Ireland. He thought the best course would be
for some deputation to attend the Right Hon. Gentle-
man out of the House, and to state to him their objec-
tions to the measure. He thought he should best con-
sult the interests of all parties if he voted with his Hon.
Friend the Member for Finsbury for proceeding with
the other orders of the day.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART thought it would be use-
less to discuss the Bill now.
Mr. SHEIL considered that it was to be regretted that
the Bill had not been brought forward at an earlier
period of the session. The Government had allowed
three years to pass without bringing the subject forward.
Last year they were told that the registration of arms
was of much more importance than the registration of
electors. If the Government were really anxious to
know the opinion of Hon. Members with respect to
this Bill, he thought there could be no harm in their
entering into the discussion of the measure.
Mr. BERNAL said that they were called upon to do
something more than have an amicable discussion.
They were called upon to discuss a Bill that they had
been told would not pass during the present session.
What advantage could the Right lion, Baronet derive
from this discussion, for many of the Irish Members
had declared that they would not be present during the
discussion, and therefore he could not by any possibility
obtain the opinion of the Irish Members?
Mr. SHAW thought it would be better not to provoke
angry discussions on the subject, when the measure was
not to be brought forward during the present session.
Lord PALMERSTON thought it more expedient not
to proceed with the discussion on the second reading of
the Bill, as it was likely to create a warm discussion, to
use the lightest term, and there was no use of raising
party spirit, unless it produced some practical and useful
result.—(Laughter.) The course which the Government
proposed was an unusual one. There were two courses ge-
nerally adopted ; one was to read a Bill a first time, and
then allow it to stand over, that the sense of the coun
try might be expressed upon it ; another course was to
bring in a Bill, and to discuss the principle of it on the
second reading, the details were then discussed in Com-
mittee, and after being committed, it was allowed to
stand over until the next session. Such a course was in.
telligible, but he could not understand upon what prin-
ciple the House should be called on to waste one or two
evenings in angry discussion upon the details of a Bill
;hr

upon the second-reading.—(He.ar, hear.) It was incon-
venient, and, probably, next session, the same thing
would have to be gone through again. Very many im
portant Bills had been postponed in consequence of the
advanced period of the session to which they had ar-
rived, and now they were about to devote one or two
evenings to what could produce no result. It would be
better if gentlemen would suppress their speeches and
reserve them for another session. The Noble Lord op-
posite had spoken of the manner in which the Bill had
been discussed by the Irish press. Probably during the
recess the Noble Lord could arrive at the real opinion of
the people of Ireland on the subject.
Mr. COLLETT said that if the second reading of the
Bill were proceeded with, he should take no part in the
discussion, and would leave the House.
Mr.CURTEIS thought the Right Hon. Baronet ought
not to proceed with the Bill. While he was speaking
there w 2,3 a flash of lightning outside the House, and
what was taking place within the House was rather
ominous of the storm which the discussion was likely to
produce.—(Laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL thought that the Hon. Gentleman
had no reason to complain of a flash of
lightning, as he came from an agricultural eounty,
in which rain was so necessary. The object of
her Majesty's Government in proceeding with the
second reading of the Bill, was that they wished to re-
move some erroneous impressions which were enter-
tained with regard to it. When his Noble Friend intro-
duced the Bill, there was only a very short discussion,
as it was understood that Hon. Gentlemen would have an
opportunity of stating their opinions with regard to the
Bill on the second reading, and removing certain objec-
tions made to it. If he had postponed the second read-
ing of the Bill, he would be told that he had offered an
insult to Ireland.—(No, no.) He said so, because there
was a meeting of Irish Members on Saturday to consider
what course should be taken with regard to the. Bill, the
opposition to which was to be led by the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite. If he had at once stated that it was not
the intention of her Majesty's Government to read the
Bill a second time,gentlemen on the other side would have
said that he had acted unfairly by Irish Members by de-
priving them of the opportunity of making statements in
opposition to the measure, and by depriving the Govern-
ment of the opportunity of considering these objections.
At the same time, if he were assured that it was the ge-
neral wish of the Irish Members that the second reading
should not be proceeded with, he would at once give way.
If the Irish Members wished the Bill not to be discussed,
he would have no objection to give way to their wish,
although he would not postpone it in deference to the
wish of the English Members. If he understood it was
the wish of Irish Members on both sides of the House
that the discussion should not take place, he would not
press it.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said it was true that he
had been present at a meeting yesterday on the subject
of that Bill. It had been his intention to have spoken
against tho Bill, on the ground that it took away the
franchise which had been given to Ireland by the Re-
form Bill. He had not been aware of the intention of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury until within the last half
hour, and he understood the Hoyt: Member to protest
when there were several English measures of importance
before the House, against their going into an unavailing
discussion on an Irish subject. Now, he must say that,
every session, except during the present, Irish subjects
had occupied a large portion of the time of that House;
and he would also say that in general Irish questions
had received a fair hearing, Trusting most sincerely
that in another session a measure so important would re •
ceive an impartial and an attentive hearing, he would,
as it appeared to be the wish of the House that the mea-
sure should not be proceeded with, vote for the motion
of the Hon. Member for Finsbury.
Mr. BELLEW had been anxious that a discussion
should take place, because he had thought it not im-
possible that the Government might avail itself of the
objections of Members on that side of the House to
amend the measure. He hoped that during the recess
the Right Hon. Baronet would carefully consider the
objections which had been urged to the measure. He
had not understood that they were to go into the de-
tails of the measure on the second reading. It was not
usual to do so. He would, however, follow the example
of the Right Hon. Member for Kildare, as the English
Members did not wish to press the discussion. He hoped
the Government would take advantage of the recess, to
review the Bill,--and to alter its provisions in such a
manner as to meet the wishes of the Irish people.
After a few words from Mr. Grogan, Mr. Lefroy, and
Mr. M. J. O'Connell,
Sir R. PEEL said he thought he was entitled to infer
that it was the predominant wish of Members connected
with Ireland on both sides of the House, not to proceed
with the second reading of the Irish Registration Bill,
and that being the case, he would not ask them to enter
into the discussion.
The O'CONOR DON said he believed it was the
wish, not only of Irish, but also of English Members, that
this Bill might not be discussed in the present session.
Mr. WYSE said that the greatest hostility existed
against the provisions of the Bill, as they were under-
stood in Ireland. The franchise in Ireland ought to be
dealt with, not on political or party grounds, but with
a sincere desire to give a full and efficient representation
to the Irish people.—(Hear.)
Lord CLEMENTS said he came down to the House
expecting, like many other Irish Members, to have a
discussion on the provisions of this Bill, and was much
disappointed that discussion had not taken place. He
had come from Ireland under the impression that the
Bill would have been proceeded with.
Sir R. PEEL said it should be distinctly understood
that it was entirely in compliance with the wish of the
Irish Members that he postponed the Bill, and from no
other motive.
After a few words from Mr. M. O'FERRALL and Mr.
F. FRENCH,
Sir It PEEL said that the Irish Municipal Franchise
Bill, as well as the Irish Registration Bill, would be post-
poned to next session.
The other Orders of the Day were then proceeded with.
The second reading of the Railways Bill was postponed
to Monday next.
UNLAWFUL OATHS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ELIOT moved the second reading of the Unlaw-
ful Oaths (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL suggested certain amend-
ments. The present Bill was eminently calculated to
encourage informers—a dangerous race of persons, in any
community—and to implicate ianoeent persons, as was
proved by the recent trials in Ireland, i❑ which police-
men and Informers were clearly convicted a the grossest
perjury►.

Sir R. PEEL begged the House to recollect that in
the present state of Ireland the Government had asked
for no new power ; all they asked for was the continua-
tion of the existing law as a precaution against the
disturbance of the public peace ; and whilst their prede-
cessors took this power for five years, they only asked
for it for one year.
The House then divided, when there appeared,
For reporting progress
Against it
Majority against reporting progress —lB
The Bill then passed through a Committee.
PRISONERS' (SCOTLAND) BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on the Pri-
soner's (Scotland) Bill,
Mr. WALLACE said he objected entirely to the sys-
tem of prison discipline now existing in Scotland. Cri-
minals of all kinds were subjected to the system of
solitary confinement, and he believed the greatest evils
arose from it. If it did good in any case, it could
only be in that of young persons. The
opinion prevailed very generally throughout Scotland
that the present system of prison discipline in that
country was an entire failure, and he thought the sub-
ject deserved the serious consideration of the Govern-
ment. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Gra-
ham) would state whether he was aware that there were
prisoners in Glasgow and other parts of Scotland who
were in such a state of debility that the sentences of
transportation passed upon them had never been put into
execution ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said he did not think that was the
best occasion to discuss the general question, whether of
not the system of separate confinement was the best
system of prison discipline ; but certainly his experience
of the prison at Pentonville led him to the conclusion
that upon the whole it was an admirable system, and
highly conducive to the reformation of prisoners. The
case of Perth was an experiment of the same
kind on a more limited scale ; and he believed hie
Honourable and Learned Friend, the Lord Advocate,
who had considerable acquaintance with the subject'
would be able to state that it was not a failure.—(gear.)
With respect to the convicts under sentence of trans"
portation, that was not the case of prisoners suffering
long imprisonment, but the case of prisoners who hell
been recently convicted, and who, on examination, were
found to be in such a state of health they could not bee?
the execution of the sentence. It was not peculiar to
Scotland, but extended to this country. The evil of the
expense of maintaining such prisoners was not a new
one; counties had long been subjected to a simile?
burden. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would De".
object to the Bill going through Committee.
After a few words from Mr. P. M. STEWART,
The Bill went through Committee ; the Chairman re-
ported progress, and the Report was ordered to be
brought up to-morrow.
On the motion of Sir R. PEEL,
THE BANK CHANTER BILL.
The Report on the Bank of England Chart'er Bill /re°
further considered, and, there being no anar,:ndment, the
Bill was ordered to be read a third time.
The Education Bill was read a third time and passed',
The other Orders of the Day having been disposed e"
Mr. M. SUTTON moved for and obtained leave to
bring in the following Bills:—Bill to continue two Ael
relating to the removal of poor persons born in Scotlarlii
and Ireland, and chargeable to parishes in England.
to continue certain Turnpike Acts. Bill to suspend the
making of lists and the ballots and enrolments fur tbe
Militia of the United Kingdom. Bill to continue th
exemption of inhabitants of parishes, townships, ee f
villages, from liability to be rated as such, in respect
stock in trade or other property, to the relief of the p9,,021
The Bills were accordingly brought in and read a Dr'
time.
The House adjourned at Half-past Eight.

Dispatches were sent off last evening from thnj
Colonial-office for the Governor of Jamaica, and Isis"
for the Governors of the other West India colonies.

Sol
SIX POUNDS of TEA, and upwards, sent, carriage free, tS
part of the Kingdom, at the. Wholesale Price, on receipt of a row'
lance, or Post-office order.
Black, 2s. Bd. 25., Zs. 4d., 3s. Bd., 45., 48. 4d., 4s. Bd., 50.
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LERSBURY, CIIEAPSIDE. Agencies will be given to respec'' parties-

BIRTHS.
ego
At sea, on the 7th of May, on board of the ship Que_4.
the lady of W. Vansittart, Esq., Bengal Civil Service, of a 70.,
On the 19th ult., in the Victoria-park, near Manche.s2 of the lady of Joseph St. John Yates, Esq., barrister-at-law'
a son.
On the 25th ult., at Torrington-square, the lady of P/111
Johnson, Esq., of a son.
On the 25th ult., at the Parsonage, St. Thomas's, South
wark, the lady of the Rev. William Deey, of a daughter.
so,
On the 28th tilt., at Hyde-park-square, Mrs. lipid°
of a son.
ard
On the 28th ult., at Maidstone, the lady of Captain Edit
Scott, late of the 4th Light Dragoons, of a daughter. e
On the 28th ult., at Belmont-hill, Lee, Kent, Mrs. Ge"
Debenham, of a daughter.
On the 29th ult., at Goswell-street, the lady of C.
Gordon, jun., Esq., of a son.

MARRIED.
On the 27th ult., at St. Pancras; Church, Edward lo 10
Chapman, Esq. of Manningham, Yorkshire, to Anne id° ell/
Cogan, only child of the late John Cogan, Esq., of Roth°
Northamptonshire.
f Pe
On the 27th ult., at Ctiesham, J. N. Walker, Esq., 0-,•ejdr
s
tonville, to Ann, eldest daughter of the late James
-r1
Esq., of Chesham-'vale, Bucks.
On the 27th ult. at Ludstone, Salop, Edmund Fox, to
Master of the Royal Grammar School, High Wycombe'
Miss Lea, of the former place.

DIED.
est°' On the 29th ult., Rebecca Greenwood, aged 21 ~Yerry'
cousin of Mr. G. Tennant, Westminster Arms, Horsy'
road, Westminster, much lamented.
tie
o
At sea, on the 25th of May, on board of the ship
the wife of W. Vansittart, Esq., Bengal Civil Service. bee;
On the 23d ult., at Cole House, Devonshire, Elil lir'
Maria Georgiana, youngest daughter of the late Captal
Payne, of Nutwell, near Lympstone. Mallie.
On the 27th ult., at Richmond, Surrey, Frances
verer, wife of Colonel the lion. Henry Edward Butler. ffesrf
On the 27th ult., Harriet Sarah, the wife of Mr.
Dixon, of Circus-street, Greenwich.
_.........,e,
- 0

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*RP/MI 'hexlay, July 2, 1144.