The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-31 00:00:00

BRITISH MUSEUM.

Mr. LENNARIVQ(i. he held in his hand a motion which
he shoUld now move, or postpone, if it was thought ne-
cessary, to Monday next, and the object of it war to bring
betiorc the 'House a return of the number of applications for
admission. 'to the reading room of the British Museum, which
were po?tponed or got rid of. The House were not aware,
perhaps, that an applicant, according to the rulei of the read-
ing-room, must have the recommendation of a trustee, or
an Officer of the House, in order to get•access to the library;
std in consequence many very respectable persons, not baying

the advantage of obtaining access to any of the Trustees, gave
up altogether the attempt to get admission. To such persons
this rule was a:virtual denial, and he knew it to be so in several
instances.

At the suggestion of Mr. C. LONG, the Hon. Member liost-
poned his motion. to Monday.
- ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the Order of.the Day, that the House-re-
solve itself into a ComMittee of Supply; •
Mr. HumE. said, that as the House was about
to resolve itself into a Committee in which the
Army 74stimates were to be tonsidered, he "felt it
his duty to submit a motion 'respecting the Staff
and l'ublic Departments of the Army similar to
that which he had formerly submitted respecting
its numerical force. He was strongly impressed
with the difference between the umbers of the
Army in 1792 and 1821 ; he was still more im-
pressed with the difference of the expence of the
Staff.' He should only state, that the motion
which he should submit was founded on docu-
ments laid on the Table. The lion. Member
then moved, as an Amendment, a Resolution :
" That it appears, by the Returns before the House of Com-
mons, that the Total. Charge, under the head of Staft Officers
of every kind, belonging to the Army in Great, Britain, and
in all the Colouip, in 1792 (Ireland excluded), was 33,7941. ;

For Great Britain
For the Colonies

- - £16,670
•• 17,118..

- Total - - - £33,704
And that the Charge, under the head of Staff of every kind, for
Great Britain and the Colonies, in the year 1821 (Ireland ex-
cluded), is 117,710.; namely—
For Great Britain - - - £33,8.55
For the Old Colonies - - 52,155
For the New Colonies - - 31,700
Total - - • - £117,710
being an increase in Great Britain and the Old Colonies of
52,2161., and " in Great Britain and the Old and New Colonies
of 83,0161. a year' for Staff belonging to the Army ; and that,
also, it appears, by the Returns on. the Table of the House of
Contmons,. that the Charge for the Public Departments, in
Great Britain, of the Paymaster-General, the Secretary at War,
the Judge. Advocate-General, the Comptrollers of- Accounts,
and the Commissary-General of Musters, their Deputies,
Clerks, and Contingent Expences, in 1792, amounted to
40,8381. ; and that the Charge for Allowances to • the.principal
Officers of the Public Departments, of the Commander-m-1
Chief, Paymaster-General, Secretary at War, Judge Advocate-
General,, Comptroller of Accounts, the Medical Department,
their Deputies, Clerks, and Contingent Expences, for Great
Britain, in 1821, amount to 133,0741., being, an increase of
92,2361. "Tore for the Public Departments of the Army, in,
1821, than in 1792."
The Amendment was negatived, and the Or-
der of the Day having been read,
The CHANcr.i.Lon of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the House do now resolve itself into the
Committee.
Humu said, he had forborne to press his
lasi motion, betause any Gentleman who. had a
doubt as to any figure, might be justified in giv-
ing a negative to it but he had now to proppse
a motion, on which he should take the 'Sense of
the House, and he intreated them to consider-
well how much the salaries of office§ had been in-
creased since 1797. There
,was not•an individual
who was not aware of the causes of the increase.
.
The motion which he should.submit to the lionse,
was- to pledge them to revise all salaries which
had been increased since'l797. lie moved there-.
fore, as-An Amendment,. the folloWing Reso-
lutions :

" Resolved,--That the progressive increase of salaries in the
different Public. Departments took place in consequence of the
increase of business in time of War, and the Depreciation of
the Currency, which began soon after the Susriension'of Cagh
Payments, in 1797 ; .and that as Peace has been established,.
and the Currency brow-ht to a Metallic Standard, it is expe-
dient that a considerable reduction of expence should'be.6:ffeeted
by a proper revision of all salaries increased-ohice 1797, by ad-
justing them to the present value of the Currency."
Lord PALmEasTON said, that this being a ge-
neral sweeping Resolution, had no relation what-
ever to •the motion -before the House. If the

• .•.1,
11.9. solution was proper to be entertained by the.
House, certainly this was not the opportunity,
and. the Hon.-Member ought to give notice of it
for a future day, As to the statement that we
had returned to a metallic currency, he was ig-
norant of any such fact. lie knew, indeed, that
preparations were making for carrying into effect
such a scheme.

Mr. BARING was surprised to hear that this
was not a proper opportunity for the Resolution of
his lion. Friend, to whom the country, he had no
doubt, felt itself so much indebted. The Noble
Lord said, he was not aware that we had re-

'turned to a metallic currency. The objection
seemed to him a little too fastidious, since in
about thirty days time it would be in the power
of any man to call at the*Bank and supply him-
self with gold in exchange for Bank Notes, at
the rate of 31. 17s. 101 d. per ounce. The House
should particularly observe, that this Resolution
did not bind the House to make any reduc-
tion, it only pledged them to take the matter in-

to consideration, and he was sure that in common
consistency, those who voted for taking away
some of the taxes, ought to agree to this Reso-
lution.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would re-
mind the House of the total inapplicability of this
Resolution to the subject to be brought before.
the Committee of Supply. There were a series
of opportunities of discussing the items of the
expenditure of this department to the utmos
minutia' of detail, of which the Hon. Member
might avail himself.

Mr. BENNETT said, that the Resolution only
pledged the House to an inquiry, and by thus
pledging itself it would do no more than :vas re-
commended to them by the reports of several Fi-
nance Committees. The recommendations of

those Committees were all neglected by the Go-
vernment, and his Hon. Friend seeing them so
careless, now called upon the House to interpose.

Lord PALMERSTON would make one observa-

Lion. 'The Hon. Member said that the Govern-
ment were idle and careless in the reduction of
expenditure. Now, did the Hon. Member forget
that a saving of 84,000/. a year was made by re-
ductions in the Military Department since the war.
Mr. BENNET said, that nothing could be more
wild than to hold forth the disbanding of soldiers
at the termination of. the war, as an instance of .a
disposition to retrench.
Mr. T. WILSON-would not vote for the resolu-
tion of the Hon. Member, because the matter of
it was not brought fairly before the. House.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought that the Members
who voted for the reduction of the Malt Tax,
were, bound as honest men to agree to this reso-
lution.

Mr. GIPPS would have no objection to the
motion, if he knew what immediate use was in-
tended to be made of it.

Mr. HumE said, that the use be intended t 9
make of
_it was to lay before the House, if they

agreed to his Resolution, several items of increase
of -salaries, the mere statement of' which would
-render all observation unnecessary.' He would,
for instance, show that the Deputy Secretary at.
War, who had a. salary of 8201. yearly in 1797,
now enjoyed a salary of 2,500/. per annum ; and
that the head clerk, w.ho had a salary of 7001. a
year in 1797, had a salary
.of 1,400/. at the pre-
sent time.
Mr. HARBORM and Mr. MONCK spoke in favour
of the Resolution.
Colonel Tr.nNotr.was prepared to show, by an
arithmetical calCniation, that the expence of the
present Military gstablishinent was not rated
higher in proportion to the tiumber of men, than
the same had been in 1792. If it was true that
in that year 47,474 men cost 3,494,0001., then
surely 81,000 men ought to cost now 5,896,0001.
But the gross sum sought was 6,000,000, which
was but very little over what it would be, even
by the nicest calculations, on the rule of 1792.
The House then divided, there appearing—.
For the Amendment 29
Against it - - - '5O
Majority . - - , ' —2l.
Upon our re-:admission to the Gallery, we
found the House in a Committee of Supply.—lt
was then moved, that a sum not exceeding
105,5431. ss. 10d. be granted to his Majesty to
defray the charges of the Staff of his Majesty's
Land Fortes for Great Britain and the Colonies,
with the exception of the East Indies, for the
year, from the 24th December 1820, to the 25th
December 1821.

Mr. RUNE wished that the House would con-
sider the enormous allowance made'to the Com-
mander in Chief, being 161. Bs. a day. He would
not say that we should have no Commander in
Chief, but we had none in 1792: Formerly the
Duke of York had-only nine guineas a day,' and
he should propose a reduction to that amount.—
He should also propose that. the Secretary to the
Commander in Chief should be reduced to 10001.
as his salary amounted to 20001. a year, and in
times of peace he could 'have nothing to do.—
(Hear ! from Lord Palmerston.)—He was glad
to hear that the Secretary to the Commander in
Chief had a good deal to do, for then the Noble
Lord could have little or nothing to do. He
would propose also to reduce the Chaplain-Ce-
neral, "who held three offices, and could not be
.
in three place's at. once. The Deputy Assistant
Adjutant-General and the Peputy Assistant
Quarter Master General ought to be. reduced ;
and he should, in fact, move a reduction of the
expence of the Staff at least one-third, though he
well knew that there might be a reduction safely
made of one;half of its expence. A reduction of
one-half might be made in. the Staff of South
Britain, and a considerable reduction in that of
North Britain.: He was aware that he might
be told these. offices Were useful ; but he
begged the House to attend to the recommenda-
tions of the .Finance CommitteeS to' return as
speedily,,as possible to the former peace esta-
blishment." The Staff of Ireland was charged at
20,0001.; 'when, in Ino,' it only amounted to a
few thousand pounds. There was a very heavy
Medical Staff in Ireland, though he believed not
one of them had ever been abroad with the
British army, and lie must say that. if this Staff
were necessary, it should be supplied from the
half-pay, Officers on the Medical Staff, who had
seen a,great deal oiservice abroad. The Colo-

nial Staff in 1792 cost only 17,0001. while now it
was charged at 50,0001. In the Windward and
Leward Islands the .expence was then but 80001.
and now it was 27,0001. The Staff in the lonian
Islands was two-thirds more than it ought to be.
We had now a gross Staff at hone and abroad
which he should move to be reduced from its pre-
sent amount to 180,0001.; and he now moved,
that the present vote should be reduced from
105,0001. to 85,0001.
Lord PALMERSTON said; that this was a qnes-
tion whether the army scheme of 1792 was fit
for the purposes of the State and time ; and
whether we should return to a 'similar state of
inefficiency in our army, which would be best
accomplished by reducing the efficiency of our
Staff. Wciuld we give up the present excellence
of our Army Establishment, while no other court-
'try in Europe had done the same ? lie defended
the amount of salary to the Commander-in-Chief,
on account of the immense duties he had to per-
form. The duty of Military Secretary to the
Commander-in-Chief, was at present most labo-
rious, from his having to attend to all the claims
of half-pay Officers. The Chaplain-Geneml for
all his three places, only had 3001. a year. There
had been a very great economy effected by the
Medical Inspectors of stores for the army. He
therefore opposed the motion.
Col. DAVIES would not propose any reduction
in the salary of the Commander in Chief ; nor in
that of the Military Secretary, whose duties were
incessant. But there was no necessity for a
Quarter-Master General. By getting ria of the
Commander in Chief, and most of the Staff in Ire-
land, there would be a saving of 4,7001. There
would also be a great saving by reducing the
number of General Officers in the West India

Islands. In that of Tobago, there was a Major-
General to '2OO men. The Port Adjutants of
those Islands should also be reduced. lie saw
no necessity for Lieutenant General and a
Brigadier General, -a Brigade Major, or a Secre-
tary to Sir. 11. Lowe, in St. Helena, The reduc-
tions he would have to propose would amount to

-12 or 13,000 men, exclusive of the saving on the
Staff of Ireland.
Mr. 11. G. RENNET considered the Office of
Secretary to the Commander-in-Chief, must by
less laborious now than in time of war. lie
begged to impress upon the house the recommen-
dations of the Committees of Finance of 1817
and 1818; for Government, who appointed those
Committees, seemed to have forgotten that they
had ever existed. Mr. Pitt's economy of 1792,
ought to be imitated. No man could deny but
that Mr. Pitt was a great economist ; and, if he
had a f4ult, it was perhaps in paring down Offices
too closely. In a few hours a reduction might
be made in the Offices of Adjutant and Quarter-
Master Generals. The job was done ; a great
economy would be effected. by these. Estimates :
and though the Noble Lord might get the money
this year, he would not get it in another.
Col. WOOD said, no soldier in the British

Army would deny but that the Commander-in-
Chef deserved more than he had for his services
to the country: The Getieral Officers had to go
to each company, and ask each individual if he
had any complaints to make ; and through the
General Officer such complaints were to be
transmitted to the Commander-in-Chief. The
Inspectors of cloathing had to take care that the
cloth sent out to the different regiments should
be of the best quality, else inferior articles would
be sent out.
Mr. llumE had only recommended the reduc-
tion of three General Officers, but the last
speaker had given a reason why the whole six
should be reduced. In 1803 the Secretary of
the Commander-in-Chief had 10831. a year; and
he (Mr. H.) wished to have it brought back to
that amount. In 1805 the salary had been in-
creased, because of the additional number of
troops ; but as that number had now been re-
duced, he thought the salary should be reduced
in the same proportion. The duty of inspecting
the clothes was always done by one person, and
one was sufficient. He had not wished to bring
down the expenses of the Staff to what it had
been in 1792, as, though his amendment should
be acceded to, the expense of the Staff now
would exceed that of 1792 by 60,0001.
Mr. J. SMITH would have been better pleased
had the Amendment been for a less reduction.—
lie was sensible that the state of the army was
much improved, and that the country was under
great obligations to the Commander in Chief.—
When he heard it stated that we were unable to
fulfil our engagements to the public creditors,
he must say that the first duty was to pay our
debts. He hoped the amount of the sum would
be reduced, and he should support it cordially.
Lord PALMERSTON explained; it had been
that night stated that Mr. Pitt had been termed
an economical Minister, though, while he lived,
he had been reproached with the utmost prodi-
gality. The present Ministers might, therefore,
hope at a future day for similar applause.
Mr. IJUME would substitute the surn of 90,0001.
for his first Amendment, in deference to the
wishes of his friends.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and
the Committee divided—

For the Amendment - - 61
Against it , -
.• 116
Majority in favour of the Original Motion - -55.
Upon our re-admission to the Gallery, we
found Lord PALMERSTON moving the Grant of
25;,289./. for the Staff of Ireland.

Sir 11. PARNELL contended that the office of
Commander in Chief in Ireland, and the Staff
attendant on that office, might easily be dis-
pensed with, and was a piece of useless extrava-
gance. lie should move as an Amendment, that
20,479/. should be substituted for the original
motion.

Lord PALMEIBTON said, it had been the inten:
tion of the Government to get rid of the Lieu-
tenant-General in Ireland, but by the motion of
the lion. Baronet, the Commander-in-Chief would
also be removed, as the Hon. Baronet proposed
to take away the salary. The rank of Com-
mander-in-Chief was necessary, from the extent
and the inrportance of his station.
_ _

,Mr. Humc was surprised that the amendment
had been for so small an amount. While in Eng-
land there were only four Adjutant Generals,
there were in Ireland eight. *All the ,Medical
Inspectors in England but one were on half-pay,
while all the Medical Inspectors in Ireland, ex-
cept one, were on full-pay. In England all the
Medical Inspectors bad served abroad ; while in
Ireland, with the exception of one who had been
three months at Gibraltar,. none had ever been
out of the country.--44931.; the expence of-the
Medical Establishment, shotild be reduced to
1900/. The reduction ought to have been to the
amount of 75001. and then the expence would lie
still too large.. •
Lord PALMEnSTON contended that the nature
of the Military Establishmebt in England and
Ireland was very different. The -Irish- Medical
Establishment was not exempted from foreign
service any more than the English.
Mr. WAItRE supported the motion for the re-
duction.

Sir IL PARNELL asked the Noble Lord if he
wished,to have it supposed that the military ser-
vice was going on in Ireland as in time of war.
The reduction might be made without any detri-
ment to the public service.

'Sir G. Hun opposed the amendment, as it was
necessary that there should be in Ireland such a
responsible Officer as a Commander-in-Chief, to
whom the Lord Lieutenant was to look for ad-
vice in that branch of the public service.
Mr. O'GRADY objected to the unnecessary ex-
pellee attached to the army in Ireland, and
should vote for the amendment.

Mr. C. Ca ANT said, the question almost was,
if there should he a Court i❑ Ireland, with suit-
able Officers. The lion. Baronet had formerly
expressed his opinion that the office of Lord
Lieutenant should be abolished, which opinion
had occasioned great alarm in Dublin. If there
was to be a Vice-regal Court in Ireland, there
must be a suitable splendour attached to it.
Col. DAVIES was in favour of the amendment.

—Lord PALmnasToN and Mr. GRANT explained.
Mr. BENNET saw no use for the office of Com-
mander-in-Chief, as the whole of the duty might
be performed by the Lieutenant General, both
at the Court of the. Lord Lieutenant, and in a
lniii ta ry capacity.
Sir G. HILL defended the office of Commander-

in-Chief.
Mr. R. GORDON wished to know why it was
necessary for the Commander-in-Chief in Ire-
lend to give, dinners ?—(A. laugh.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division--
Ayes
Noes - - - - - 140
Majority against the Amendment --87
During the exclusion of strangers another division took place,
the precise nature of which we could not learn. The numbers
were— Ayes - -

Ntiv; -
Majority -
The next Resolution was for granting 133,074/.
or different Officers.

- 134
___G3

Col. DAvIEs and Mr. BENNET wished to have
the several items put separately, and discussed
separately.

-The proposition was acceded to; and the first

Item put *as 14,4741. for the Commander in
Chief's Office.
Mr. Htni. -objected to this grant. In 1807,
the expence of this office was 7,5001. -and this in
pie time of an extensive war. In 1792, the ex-
pence was only-10001. We were then at peace,
:and we are now-at peace; hut he would not pro-
pose to reduce the item to 10001., or even to
WOOL, but he .would propose as an Amendment
to make it 10,0004 instead of the proposed sum.
—After a few words from Lord PALmcasTox,-
Mr. HumE said, he understood, in 1806, the
expence was 12,2561.; and lie would now with-
draw his Amendment for 10,0001. and.- propose
the same sum as in 1806. Upon this proposition
the gallery was cleared for a division, but np-tli-
vision took place.
When we were again admitted; we-foUnd Mr.
Hum!. objecting to the Grant of 28,0001, for the
Paymaster-General. He contended, that Xll this
money might be saved, as any Banking-office
would pay the Government checks- without
charging a shilling: and it was for the perform-
ance of that duty alone that the Public now paid
23,0001. In 1792 the expence of this office was
about 18,000/.: and he would now propose to re
duce the'propOsed grant`of 28,0001. to 23,0001.
Mr. C. LONG 'defended the original motion,
and entered into a detailed statement of the du-
ties performed- by the Vaymaster General, which
were such as the Bank of England; or any.pri-
vate Banker would find it impossible to perform
if only the payments to Half-pay Officers were.
considered, and it should be recollected that Offi-
cers were now paid their half-pay at their places
of residence-,'however distant from the metropolis.
The•llight Hon. Gentleman then read a state-
ment
,of the "expences of the office for sevqral
years' pa4f; by which it 'appeared he had:irtfo•-•
duced gradual reduction, and he was per.iihilkt
he should be able to continue to snake"
•.e*muat"
reductions: • -

•
Sir H. PARNELL thought the army might -be
,paid at much •lass e:xpence-; and in support of
his opinion adverted to the practice hi Ireland.,
*ln Ireland the duty was performed by the Trea-
sury, and.he thought the same course mlght be
adopted here, and. the office of Paymaster might
be. abolished.

Mr. liumt replied, and contended, that the
whole business of this office might be done for
30001. a year.
Mr. C. LONG again repeated his arguments on
the importance of the office. Since he had held
the office, upwards of 300,000,000/. had passed
through his hands.

Air. BERNAL complained of the management,
of accounts and pensions in this office.' lie saw,
by the entry of pensions, that the, widow of a
General Officer received a pension of 120/..whi1.3
the widow of an Aceonnlant received three times,
that sum; and the widow of a common Entering
Clerk was put on, a par with the widow of s
General Officer.

Mr. C. LONG said, these pensions were grant-
ed before his time but the accountant and the
entering clerk had each been 42 years in the
service of the public at the ti ne_of their decease-
Mr. COURTNEY d-f-eded the PaYmaster G
neral, who had reduced the expences the Or.
Lice from 85,0001. to '28,0001. and had given up
much valuable patronage of his own.

Mr. BENNET complained of the large compkt-
sation given to public servants. He was as ready.
as any man to bestow due rewards for public
services; but at present he thought the House
was compensation-mad. lie Ivish‘d sincerely to
see the Compensation Act repealed.
After a few words from Mr. Long, the gallery
was again cleared for a division, but none tooli".
place ; and the Resolution was agreed to.
The Chairman then reported progress-, aid•
asked leave to sit again.

On the motion that the Report of the Res An-
ons should be received on Monday,
Mr. 11. G. BENNET divided the House; whE'a
ie numbers were—
Ayes - - - - -21
`Noes

Majority - -
Dr. LUSHINGTON brought in his Bill for e:c."
eluding Irish Masters in Chancery, Sz-c., front
Lolding seats in that House. The Bill was ruad
a first, and ordered to be read a second time op
Friday next.

The other Orders of the'Day were then
dib-
posed of, and the House adjourned at HALF-PAST,
ONE O'CLOCK, till Monday.

LYNN, MARCH ‘29.—A truly melancholyacci-
dent occurred in this port on Tuesday lasi:'---?'e
brig Janet, SECKER," master, being under a ft-1/1
sail, with a strong tide, was steering out of the
harbour, and seven men, who had been renderitii;
assistance on board tire, vessel, were getting over
her side, into a boat to take them on shore, whet;
in an instant the boat filled wit water, and three
of them were unfortunately drowned ; the other
four were rescued from a watery grave by the
crew of a revenue cutter, who instantly put off to `!
their assistance and saved them. The names of
the sufferers were Cox, SMITH, and ULrifl and
all of them have left widows and families, The
body of only one has been hitherto found,

rratTui.
Al the Chant ry, Nor cw,ch, orauesday last, the lady of Phil'?
ainond, Eq. of a slit!-horn datlglacr.

mmtP.IF,D,

On Wednesday se'nn'aglit, at • the Friend's Meeting li"nsfti
Halsted, F.ssex, Morley, glass Nth) chinamans
Wo•ulltridge, to Hannandaughterof Mr. Knight, .4 t""
daughter
former place.
On Sunday last,
.at the Cathedral, Norwich, Mr. S• ru"ri
mer, late of the Indies, to Miss Rose What!, of St. George
Tomtit:lnd.
Ou Monday last, at Woodbridve, Frederick William SliarP"
Esq. of Newmarket, to Elizabeth Philadelphia Lee S.'s:::
;;rand daughter of the late doh,' Roberts, Esq. formerly d,
Fuser of his Majesty's Hospital at Yarmouth.

• , DIEM
On the 24th inst., at Bremen, J. A. Albers, Esq. M.P.'
aftet a fe das' illess, at he age f 48.
On the I w 7thy nit.,n 0.5., att St. Peterosbur gli, Admiral (in the
!Nssian service) George Tate, senator, and knight of St•
older Nevskoy, &c. in his 76th year.
On Fricfay last, Mr. J. Pittield, of Queen-street, Cheap';tie,
sged si. •

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