The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-30 00:00:00

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be done to the authority of the House, were the hetch
suited to the °Teat interests which he had so ranch
heart.-(Hear hear.) He agreed with his Noble.
ted to
near him, that if the Government were not permitted
withdraw the Bill which they themselves introuor_.
they would say they were not treated with that c 0,47,
to which the executive government was entitled.--400
hear.) The question would be then changed. r:tig
of arguing the question as a legislative one-as liner 00
the hours of labour-it would be changed into a 4°` be
of confidence in the Government. Therefore
the
concurred with his Noble Friend as t° oriel
course he adopted, and considering the zniiiiit he
against him on the question he thoug,,,,eo)
could not have acted otherwise than he had ia
He differed with the Hon. Member for Finsburkse
thinking that the Noble Lord had disappointed were
whose case he advocated. As far as their interests ,he
concerned, he thought the Noble Lord had tak!n. 'id
most wise and prudent course.-(Hear, hear.) nil?, be
not attempt to influence his Noble Friend, and lA,
came to the opposite course and opposed the withdraw...l
of the Bill, he should give his vote. He now 7eb
to a very different question, which was themode in wmat
the Noble Lord proposed to deal with the Bill w.•t
was to be brought in. The Government had alreayE.
rid of the whole of the decisions of the House by cs ()az
which, though it might be convenient in itself, was tit
least fair that could be adopted.-(Hear, hear.) .der
would therefore remain for the Noble Lord to eonsio•
in what way he wished to have the issue tried. He 0
sure the Noble Lord would do it in such a W 7be
make it a proper question of legislation, and the' vs..
would bring it before the House as a House of Per_ of
ment-because, let them recollect, after the doctrine
the Right Honourable Gentleman when in °PP:ti
so
sition, and which it seemed he now Afoloilow of
in Government most consistently-that -......
Parliament were not passed by the Queen's Most of
cellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent ,Le
the confidential servants of her Majesty, but by lisP.
advice and consent of the House of Commons, in rer 0..
ment assembled.-(Hear, hear.) What we have to r°
.„a
sider with respect to the Bills brought forward, 7e^i,
which may be hereafter enacted, is, whether we
h'ese
take upon ourselves the responsibility of passing„toe
provisions into a law-whether these will, or will i,;(
beneficially affect the great body of the people oft7:t
country.-(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen have no Ilig_`.l.
to escape from the responsibility which attaches to Mee.:
as Members of Parliament, merely by saying, it is a very
great hardship that persons of thirteen or fourteen Years
of of age should be obliged to labour twelve hours $ .:4,
and yet, at the same time, consider themselves as %ie.-,
to agree with a Government which puts forward $ u'44d
rent opinion. He did not think the Government vt_.
any right to make this a question upon which their
fluence must be ascertained, and upon which Mein,the
of Parliament should shut their eyes to the merits 01 4
question, forget the responsibility of their position, tb
say they had such confidence in the present Execute
and such dislike to a change, that they must witted
that support from the Bill which they wool
otherwise conscientiously have given.-(Hear, he7,wo,
He (Lord John Russell) must declare thus his °pint a
because he saw that this question of responsibilitY..,
Members of Parliament was undergoing great ohn'ai
in the manner in which it was put forward. Ile 03
understood in the first instance that the Governmen'to.
was their peculiar duty, and as would be most contb•
nient to the public, would consider the subject wit •
best attention, and, having done so, frame a Nl' •te
careful manner; then bring it before the House thGtgio
provisions might be fully considered as by a leestbe
body they should be; and that these provisions tuig'"
affirmed or negatived, as the case might be. -But it fro
peered from the statements of the Hon. Gentleman ;is
spoke last, that hereafter, when a difficult question des,
to be considered, and that the Government were '7O.
posed to say, "We think this so detrimental to oust
views, so injurious to our influence, that our power in se
be exerted, and we must call upon our supporte_ll,lo
vote with us, regardless of the merits of the cine:l,-eir
itself," hon. Members were not to be prompted in ;0
votes by any statements that might be made inthere be
of the debate, but as they wished the Government tote
maintained, and no change to take place, they floe e
for a twelve hours' clause instead of ten.-(Hear.) belt
feared such was the notion that prevailed on the be11.,.,c
opposite-a notion which, he feared would be of
mental to the character and usefulness of that Pa °- it
and even to the Constitution itself. He did not thiner
was for the advantage of the country that the Gov 1 s..
ment should consider itself bound to carry (well,
sure and every provision which it presented to ra• e
ment.-(Hear, hear.) He had heard that doerl•
stated by some, and especially by the Right Hon. Gae,it,
tleman, the Secretary of State for the Home DePart°2;es,
and by the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colons.
when sitting on these benches. They were then
ee...°' •
posed to require more than perhaps could be Pr t,
tically effected. If that House was about to coin° "ibe
decisive vote, and show its want of confidence in
Ministry as an executive, then it might be consider:.
as a question of party support ; but with respec4 w
questions affecting the whole body of the people, OD lea
legislative questions, he hoped that that Housf.s w°
maintain its legislative authority, and not rote inere
as puppets, at the will of the Ministers.-celear, by"'
i
Having stated these opinions, he would not say $,140
as to the merits of the Bill itself ; and, as his i1e.,,,i"
Friend had come to what he (Lord J. Russell) CO7;1;
dered a wise decision in the course he had taken ;,,
that evening, he trusted he would steadfastly persevere
in the same course.-(Cheers.)
A oSt'
Sir ROBERT PEEL .aid lie quite admitted the / 0,
distinction which the Noble Lord had drawn hetwi„,eere
the functions and responsibilities of individual Men 1.,..""
of the House of Commons and the functions and resY7,t,
sibilities of members of the Executive Government'
The Noble Lord said that the members of the Go"`"1,,;.
ment were immediately responsible to the Sovereign,'"e
the advice which they might give-that they stood 'um
different position to the Sovereign with Members of the
House of Commons, and that it was incumbent on t b,
House of Commons well to weigh the merits of e_tr
question, and to consider whether or not it would eT:a
practical benefit on the country. The Noble" L°""
admitted that the members of the Government, altu°'
they stood in a certain relation towards the t
vereign, and had certain peculiar duties.
tilt
he did not seem to consider sufficiently ,ge,
the members of the Government had the
_Tif
privileges as other Hon. Members, and were bow,"
the same obligations, and that it was necessary t
for th;3o,
0Y
in their capacity of legislators, to see whether or no " of
would be responsible for the practical consequonelo..
of certain acts.-(Hear.) If the Members of the ur°., ,11eir
ment doubted the policy of certain measures it wag ' the
duty and their privilege to consider such measures ingr
capacity of Members of Parliament, and to give %thad;
advice to Parliament, and to take their course in
~,;Ar
individual capacity. The Noble Lord said, and heu-.
admitted, that in many measures the sense of the
lature ought to prevail ; that if no great principle use
involved-that if no very dangerous consequences In I,
be apprehended, the Government ought not to call lee
Parliament to support them, nor stake their exists
upon carrying such a measure. But they ought toe
a certain deference to the will of the majority. was
Noble Lord was not always of this opinion (and
...„he i,.).
not disposed to speak in a tone of personal aslo''''ed
The Noble Lord, he said, had not always been Ple.
to act upon those principles, as, for instance, in the . -
siastical Courts' Bill.
Other
Lord J. RUSSELL-The majority was on the
side in that question.
T,ord'f
Sir ROBERT PEEL begged the Noble --yos,
pardon. The measure would not have succeeded• liii
he did not mean to taunt the Noble Lord withiors
former policy. He (Sir R. Peel) was certainly nil,_it s seor
that the Government had on this occasion adopte" -t,
unseemly means, or held out any threat or indugetrA:ni
They certainly had a strong feeling on the inattr..r, :,0
they felt it their duty to persevere. They calked ,Atirjo
the House for its deliberate consideratior,, 'nor alleati.,
apprehend that they were acting otherwise than o°°-ia
tutionally, even where there was a small majority,thot
bringing the matter again under, discussion, e° ens;-
Hon. Members might have an opportunity of recedo-stio
dering the subject. Was the Noble Lord prepar At-
say that the decision of the House was always e°„Piell
sive ? If that was the case what was the use s', it
those stages through which a Bill must pass be'°- ith
was finally disposed of ? It was nothing inconsisteirtioo,
constitutional usage in Parliamentary practice t 600.
the sense of the House again on the same que„rss er
Now, why had the Government pursued this e?Tv of
Was the House perfectly convinced of the ProPr'ea of
the change? Were Hon. Members on the other aid the
the House quite agreed as to the proposition 01 for
Noble Lord? Did not the Noble Lord the Member
his:
Sunderland say he had great difficulty in makingg thee
mind on the subject? Did not the Noble 14thst to
Member for the City of London himself sait ot trio
had the greatest doubts on the matter? Dia litionetlf
prominent Members of the late Government, Ren 41009-
of the greatest experience--the Right Hon. uen"prerai-
the Chancellor of the Excheuer and the Vice"- ii
dent of the Board of Trade, express opii;t_iflar'oric!eci
trary to those which were sou ht to lie s'
g t°
into law, and declared themselves unfavourablerove
placing any restraints upon labour as likely to Proiel
injurious to the working classes, and to the conunredt at
interests of the country ? Did not the Noble Lo oi-
one time, express opinions regarding those very Pr:ed ?
pies very different from what he formerly xe prese_ his
Not that he meant to taunt the Noble Lord We it
change of opinion on this matter ; for he was etin.re or;
was owing to the result of conscientious ohena,,o
opinion, and to new lights having been thrown in. "'n't,
the subject. But the Noble Lord should not iniplY '74
censure on the Members of the present Government
the opinions they entertained. But, it was said,
and in
should not the Government admit a compromise, iu :„
was urged that a compromise was often very desirable,
rts;
order to prevent this union ; but he (Sir Robe
erriS.
must say that the policy of such a Prof ern'
altogether depended upon circumstances. The Gov.%
tmheanttitapwporuoladchneodt
be
ehiws
isseubojrepctrowpeirthtoaplflerome
ancyonftufirctriiheerr
limitations upon labour--they believed that
restraints would be injurious to commerce, to Ina,nuffi:
tures, and to the working classes themselves. 4 ',",!,,.
forta ti
°f
enmhaal ed s been
factories already
eighteen. It was enacted, that they should not
of Chi
bpeltawceerelnuptohne tahgeeshooufrtshoirfteenteenetev
longer than twelve hours. Now, in consequence t
restraint on young females-adult females became more i
generally employed ; and the Government thought to
necessary to apply the same principles Y
rs] e r,l Y
adult females which the Legislature had
sanctioned in females who were not adults. Heo(Si_r
,s't;
Peel) was adverse to interfere with labour-it had De`
p-r o( dnuecatri : eheoafrd.)isadTvhitentna
the principle of Interference with labour in any sea
goeu,seamndighhte
dependfeared wupoounldit,betso.
iwn at
es klearnegnecreo us.
was Er
axtpheerri eton c e
be haavdosi
dheodw
tnh
at lni ems
atnheatitosnue4,
It was a dangerous precedent. But it was said that it
the 3overnment had acceded to a limitation of eleven
rihours, they would have had a majority, and might have