The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-21 00:00:00

should feel 4 his duty on the present occasion to resist the
Hon. Member fur Montrose's proposition. The Hon.
Member now declared that .he called tin this Vcnsion List,
in order to ascertain whether some such neweiMditication of
it rAight not be aretrttiej,... at oiiid supersede the necessii.e
!of that pettsitth, which it had so lately become his (Mr.
tioulbitrn's) duty to propound to the Ueuse the.farnil
•
of Mr. Canning; and the round 4110, tbe, on. Memb'ee
Went On here, a,not`tor: that toe mode he proposed to
'adopt
,‘fei‘• the provision in question, by charging
t't 'on the fund he would recommend, would render it matter
of no cxpence to the public; whereas, the mede he (Mr,
Goulbian) had submitted rendered it a eeetiii-_i apail.:e to
them the krst place, the Hon. Member was clearly
tvtnTM? !ii this proposition. The expence of this provision,
whether charged upon the list in question, Or' upon the
Pension Fund, must ultimately be equally borne by the
public. The House would be aware that two fund c.,
' purposes of this kind, had Nth placed at tht 4141395 a!, siU-
led only to Certain limitatiOile, 4,..Fsty; List
e!l,siciti was iithitrd; Nth to tin aMoMitalch his
0.0.% popriate under it, and as to the
.;Att.ii.4tteht amount of any individual pension. Under Mi.
Burke's Act, of 1782, the entire amount could hot exceed
93,0001. ; -nor any individual pension the sum of 1,2001.
per annum. Now the House would observe of the other
period alluded to) that there had .been ,Paropriated to his
Majesty 'S use &slide:4.l, applicable to pensiens mid al-
vei•Y large suns, in exchange for a large amount
'df profits and patronage which his Majesty had formerly
derived from certain sinecure offices so exchanged and sur-
rendered by the Crown• for this consideration. By this
syStem no restraint was imposed upon his Majesty in the
grant of such pensions, &c. beyondthe,condition that Ole
individual shield t.V .
e
.ed the twine official
416ity.
'Whichever course had been adopted of
providing for the pension to Mr. Canning's family, the
public must have defrayed the charge, because it would
have been equally granted, by. his Majesty, in tither' en;,6,
out of funds
.placed h!, Parliainetit at his disposal. lie
(Mr', C-Oiilli6lt) already stated. that he thought such
arrangements as this, in respect of the Civil List, between
the CrieWn and the Parliament, ought not to be lightly in-
terfered with ; and it was. because he did consider, that
until that Civil List should be in such a state as to Make
it necessary for the Criiivt: is apply to this House for its
essietttnti, by reason of its having exceeded the limits as-
signed it by statute—that until this state of things should
have arrived the Hon. Gentleman did not possess any right.
to inquire into the details of such list—

Mr. RU3lE—The right ?—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Per-
hap the Hoh. Gentlenian would condeScend to hear the
remainder of the sentence.—(Cheer2.) It was, because,
at least, until it could be shown that the disposal of the
Pensions on this list had been so managed as. to constitute
an abuse of the powers so confided to the Crown—(an
abuse calling for the interfererite bf Parliatheht)—it was
becatise until One of these cases could be made out, that the
Hon. Gentleman could have no fair ground for his mu-
tiOn ; that he (Mr. Goulburn) would certainly resist
(Hear.) The Hon. Member had 'said that in 1820, this
list, upon his motion, was laid before-the House. It was
so; but why ? Because, 1820 *as the very year in which
Palliaiant Made rsitti his Majesty the new arrangement
alluded to, about the' Civil List iieVerine:.-7(Heat, hear.)
It was before that measure took place, that the Hon. Gen-
tleman's motion was made, and it being -.Considered very
fitting that Parliament should be in full possession of all
the details connected with the charges of such list, before
it cont aided such arrangement, no sort of objection or dif-
ficulty was started to the production of the list, agreeably
to the motion. No such case, however, existed now.—
Nothing had Leen stated by the Hon. Gentletnan himself to
justify Parliament's having- recourse at this time to so ex-
traordinary a proceeding. It was a little extraordinary that
the Hoh. Gen tletnan's objection to the list seemed to amount
to this—that he knew many meritorious individuals who
were put upon it.
Mr. HUME---I raid just the contrary. I said who
were not.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had taken
the Hon. Gentleman's words down, and clearly understood
him to say, that if he had had the distribution of the pen-
sions, lie would leave assigned them to many more worthy
individuals whom he knew. Now, because an lion.Mem-
bet chose to rise in his place, and say that he entertained a
different opinion as to the eligibility of particular indivi-
duals fof such pensions, from that which had been acted
on by those whose duty it was, on their own responsibility,
to adVise the Crown upon the point, this surely, was no
reason to found the call now made upon Parliament to
enter into the details of the list moved for. Mr. Burke's
Act of 1.782, to which he bad adverted, as founding, the
aisurnerit for his motion, did, in fact, furnish irresistible
evidence that it was not that Statesman's intention that
the Pension List should, in this incidental manner, be laid
upon the table of the House.. It was notorious that in
I7s2„*hen thy Asst possed,l the amount of the' Pension List
slid greatly e,kesed the 141,0001. limited by that Act, Which
declaie.il that no more annual pensions-should be granteA
by the Crown until such list should be reduced within
those bounds. It was true that Mr. Burke said there
should be (aid before Parliament, for its infitrmation in
the mean time, a copy of the list ; but this was to be
done, according to his own express declaration, only
Until such time as the Pensions should not have been
reduced to the amount he had so fixed upon ; clearly
in ferring that when the reduction should have been
effected, the list was not to he produced. It was upon this
very principle that the distinction had been observed be-
tween the Civil Pension List of Vugland and that of Ire-
land. He could not consent to the lion, Gentleinan's
motion, or to give tip a principle which had been ac-
quiesced in, and acted upon by Members-, on both sides of
that House, lbr many years; by all, in short, who attached
a value to the circumstance of keeping inviolate, conven-
tions which hail been entered into between Parliament and
the Crown ; and were reluctant rashly to interfere in the
regulations of the latter, , respect .of the Civil List. To
the other part of the lion.' Gentleman's motion, he (Mr.
Goulburn) cupid have no objection. His first-proposition
he Was most decidedly opposed: to; not. from any personal
hostility to the lion. Member, but front a greatindisposi-
tioo to disturb a system which had been considered by that
House essential to the dignity of the crown, the comfort
of the Sovereign, and the convenience of Parliament.......:
(Loud "cheers.)
Lord rALTHORP bad listened attentively; !it in vain,
to the sikeal of. the Right Hon'. Gentleman, in •the ex-
pectation ,of hearing, some valid' -reason assigned for resist-
ing the motion of' Ins Friend (Mr., ffutna)l, ifthere'
was nothing discreditable about this list, what would be
'the ribjectiOn to show it to the public?—( Hear;)-- He was
one-of -thit thiliiihi that every :thing3in ;the, dueled-.
ininistiatiOn- of the:-GoVertinient i depended ttpufit: the.ire—
sportiibility of Nlinisteri:;l but that responsibility amotolted,
to' nothing, if a ntotion' of this kw 4 Vi4s.te he refused.:,
Mr. 'Secretary II VSKISSON: ebservecli that the Act of
the 22d of the late King had deteTtninad'what should be
the amount of 'this list-7tiantely, .9.5;009/. ; 'but at that
tune a mueli.greatet amount of pensions existed, and
Par-
liament determined to reduce it, directing, that until that
diminution should have' heen effected, the list should be re-
gularly laid before it. When the
.limits were realised, of
course the list ceased tet be produced to the House. Did
the Noble Lord (Altherp) or the Hon. Member for 'Mon-
trose, whose speech he (Mr. H.) had heard with astonish-
ment, really Mean to contend, that throughout this list
they could find but one or two individuals to whom those
pensions ought to be granted ? (Hear, bear.) ,• Why the
lion. Gentleman had done him (Mr. H. ) the honour to say,
that he was one'of the two or three individuals on such bit
to whom he would concur in a pension ; that, with one or
two exceptioni only, he would give none to the others named
there. The Right Hon; Secretary went on..to,enforee. thq
arguinenti of the' Chancellor of the',Exaequer, to, show.-
the impropriety 'and indelicacy of permitting this list to be
called for on a motion of this kind,- as long as it was within
the limits assigned fo by Parliament; amid on the incon-
venience of remodelling the pensions .of the great state
officers, for example, according to the. altered value of
motley,Or' the condition of our.fitiances—(Cheers from the.
Opposition).---as often as any'Aleinber might think proper
to propose such a proceeding on
,the production of the
Civil List. The Hon. Gentleman's argument, if good foe
any thing, would go to the exient'of showing that Am-
bassadors and Consuls,Ssrexample, ought not to be paid
by the Sovereign, but rather by the immediate order of the
rn Parliaeet- - • .•

Mr. HUMS...—And why not? - 1:N
Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON replied, siMply beepset
as the Repmentative of a Monarchy, it was but fitting that
they 'should be known to be paid by the Monarch whom
"they represented in foreign-States. The Right Hon. Gen-'
'&ll*n-concluded by observing, that if Ministers were re-
qiiired to produce' this lint; their frequent liability (which
must follow) to such_ a'eall, would have a very fatal effect
on' 'the Wllide4ome caution and restraint they now acted
'under', in advising the Crown upon the grant of pension!,
-froin'the Veiy fent' of exceeding the limitations assigned by
the Att'of 1182, and so being obliged to come before Par-
lianient. If the. Civit List, however, with all its details,
`,Witt-at any time likely.to be made the subject of inVestiga-
'l46% by that'Hoilse; of cootie this reluctance to come before
'l"skiitinent .Wotild'be proportiouably weakened.
:britUSHII4GTON argtied,for the expediency of corn-
161YiblOvit6'llieCinOtion 'of his Hon. Friend, the Member
foy Mbritiorte.
'MP. MIME rat' d ariie•
tvz, ,43.,
~! IC arguments of the, Right goo.,

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