The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-17 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

On the motion that the Speaker should leave the
Aair on the House going into Committee of Supply on
the Navy Estimates,
M-. TRELAWNEY, accdvding to notice, brought
under the consideration of the House the case of Mr.
John Seccombe, mortgagee of the ship Velocity, seized
and brought into Plymouth for an act of smuggling
committed without the knowledge of the owner.
Mr. CAIU)\VELL said that he deemed it right to
say a few words about the facts of the case. Ia the
month of October last the ship Velocity was seized and
brought into Plymouth harbour t the circumstance
which led to its seizure was a quantity of contraband
goods being hund on board, and when the Custom-house
officers enured the vessel, they were forcibly detained,
and tied fast in the cabin. It was true that in this
instance the petitioner was only tho mortgagee, and
might not have had any participation in the guilt of the
transaction, but the law recognised no distinction, and
under such circumstances it was impossible for the Go-
vernment to exercise any discretion. He much regretted
that any
individual should suffer, but in the present in-
stance it could not be avoided without making a dange-
rous precedent.

gTATE OF NAVY.
Captain BERKE LEY callTHEed the attention of the
House to the present system of manning her Majesty's
Navy, and the difficulty that arikS in procuring able sea-
men for her Majesty's service. The Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber proceeded to say, that he had never been influenced
by party or factious motives in bringing the state
of the navy under the consideration of the House,
whether in or out of office—whether on that or on the
other side of the House, he never would
allow any consideration whatever to sway his conduct.
He did not like to see sea complements, war comple-
tnents, or place complements, because ho considered them
all nonsense; a proper complement was the thing that was
recoired. He would refer the llon. and Gallant Admiral
to a letter which be (Capt. Berkeley) had written to Sir
George Seymour. In that letter he sent a scheme
for manning the navy on principle. Before Sir George
Seymour entered office he said that the suggestion
which he (Captain Berkeley) had made was one
which the Board ought to adopt, and he be-
lieved that Sir G-eorge Seymour was quite as
anxious to carry out the principle after he came into
45ffice, as ha was before. It appeared that ships of 82
e number of men as ships of 84 guns,
eigiteqsl"l4uci t•ntl the
y e
one ship must have too many men, or
the other must have too few. Give him a single-
deck ship, a two-deck shfi n
p,
ors a three-deck ship
and the weight of
—givo him the number
metal each had to carry, and in one moment he would
tell what was the proper complement
the each ship
ysoutegm.h t
to bear. lie found that, underpresent
ships of 90 guas, and 90 - guns and 104 guns, were all
dossed with the same number of men. Now, was not
that an absurdity?

Sir G. COCKBURN—It is not so.
t.':aptain BERKELEY said the only method that he

had of knowing was by looking to the returns of the.
ships, and, as far as he could judge fromthose, the
ships he had named were classed the same.
Sir G. COCKBURN—The 104-gun ships are not.
Captain BERKELEYcontinued—Why then was there
no difference between the 90 guns and the 92-eein ships?
It was as great a fault to over-man as to under-man
ship, for in all cases the crews should be proportioned to
the number of guns. But above all things, it was unwise
to send the experimental squadron to sea undermanned.
—(llear, hear.) Certainly a better man could not have
been chosen than the Gallant Admiral who was to take
that squadron to sea. But he feared that the result would
be disappointment in consequence of the want of a suffi-
cient complement of able seamen. The consequence
would be that the officers and the captains would become
discontented with each other, and the Admiral would
" blow up" them all. The Hon. and Gallant Officer then
, read a letter of considerable length from Sir Hyde
Parker, but from the low and rapid manner
in which he read it, we could only gather
that the Gallant Ocffier disapproved of the mode
in which the experimental squadron was to be manned.
Now he would go back to 1836. He was going to show
that this was not the only board that acted in this way,
but that other boar& acted in a similar way. In 1836
he was appointed to a ship. There wore seven ships of
the line building at that time. He found at that time
that there was the greatest difficulty in getting men, and
other captains were in the same predicament. They
were obliged to have recourse to the coast-guard service.
It was stated that they had no reason to complain, for
the same class of ships as that which he commanded bore
the same number of men now. It was well known that
captains were anxious to get able-bodied seamen, and
men came to him and said that they would enter for his
ship, provided he would enter them as able-bodied sea-
men, but he told them he did r.ot consider them as such.
He feared he was wearying the House with these de-
tails, but this was a subject of the greatest importance
to the House and to the public; and whether they were
landsmen or seamen they should all consider that this
was a question on which the safety of the navy depended.
The lion. Member then described the duties of a sailor,
and said that in former days no man was deemed an
efficient seaman until he was thoroughly conversant
with those duties; but now-a-days sailors were very dif-
ferent indeed, and so they would continue to be until
his plan should be adopted. When he was out upon a
voyage recently ho found that out of twelve of his crew
there were only seven who knew how to go into the
chains and use the lead. When on that station, he re-
ceived an order from the then Board of Admiralty,
stating that the men in his ship should be allowed to
volunteer into any other ship. On receiving this order, he
took it on himself to do that which he conceived
was required by the peculiar circumstances of the case.
But he was well aware that if he threw difficulties is
the way of the Board of Admiralty—if he endeavoured
to shirk the order which they had given him—he should
not be doing his duty. He therefore addressed a letter
to Sir William Gage, and he told him that if any man
from his ship were allowed to volunteer into any other,
he should not be able to bring her home—he would not
undertake to bring her home. Sir William Gage, who
commanded on the station, came on beard his ship ; he
examined the company, ho went through the whole of
them, and then he said that he should not take one man
from him, nor allow them to volunteer into any other ship.
He recollected, in 1836, that there was one man who
was asked at the rendezvous how long he was at sea, and
on informing them that he was twenty-two years at sea,
he was put down as an able-bodied seaman. But the
fact turned out to be that he was a discharged marine.—
(Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Member then road
an extract from a letter which he had received, in 1839,
from Portsmouth, which stated thatitie Powerful an-
chored after dark, and the men were in such a state that
they took more than half an hour furling the sails, and
the main-top they could not furl. In 1840 he (Captain
Berkeley) was appointed to her Majesty's ship the
Thunderer, and it appeared that the few good men whom
he had in the Hercules were paid off and came to the
Thunderer. He sent an officer to Plyntouth, and Sir
David Dunn sent one to Portsmouth. Sir David
Dunn told him there was no use in having a rendezvous
in Plymouth while the Thunderer was in Portaisouth.
Sir David Dunn told him (Captain Berkeley) that when
he asked able seamen in the streets to join his ship, they
said " No, we will go to the Thunderer, for the officers
there make the wor light, and wish to see their ship
fully and properly manned." lie asked the Gallant
Officer opposite was not that accounting for the under-
manned state of the navy. The Hon. and Gallant Ad-
miral had, some nights ago, hinted that the blame of de-
ficiency was not owing to him, but to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, who would not supply the funds. If he
(Captain Berkeley) were in the Hon. Gentleman's place,
if they did not give him men enough, he would make
his bow and withdraw from office.—(Hear, hear.) He
would now pass on to show why men could not be ob-
tained. The first great reason wits the general use of
steam-boats substituting machinery for hand labour. Let
them look to Liverpool and the other great ports, and they
would find that passage-boats had been entirely laid
aside. At Plymouth and Portsmouth a great number of
wherries were formerly in use, and a great number of
persons were thus trained to the sea ; but this description
of vessel was now but little used. He would now
again turn for a moment to the case of jthe
Thunderer, from which he had been diverted try an
interruption from the Honourable Gentleman opposite.
The course they were pursuing would not do. They
ought to have a system fur manning ships, and they
ought not to break faith with the seamen. They ought
not to do with the men what they had done with them
in China. It was true they had given batta to them,
bet the fact was, they had not given them prise money
for what they had done in China. What had been
done ? Why, Government had taken everything,
and given their seamen nothing. And now, let him ask,
why was it that he had taken the trouble to make these
statements? In former times the merchant service was
a sort of nursery for the men-of-war ; but now the
ships were rigged in dock by old Greenwich pensioners,
and, in fact, it was the men-of-war who fur-
nished the merchant service with men. He
did not expect that the Board of Admiralty
would be induced to remedy those defects of
which he complained, merely because he made those
representations ; but those discussions would have a
very useful effect out of doors ; and it often happened
that they tended to carry a point; for upon a former occa-
sion he was defeated in that House by a large majority
upon a motion that he had brought forward ; but it was
looked upon as so important by the public, that the
Whig First Lord of the Admiralty, who then came into
office, expressed his approval of the project, because
public opinion and the press wore in favour of it.—
(Hear, hear.) He meant the affsir of the ten-gun brigs.
—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with
any further observations.
Sir G. COCKBURN said he should answer the state-
ments of the Gallant Officer, first, by saying that he was
very much surprised to hear the Gallant Officer begin
his speech by charging him (Sir G. Cockbur ith
having stated that he conceived there was no di ulty
whatever in manning the fleet. Now he (Sir George
Cockburn) had stated exactly the reverse of that, for he
said it had been found impossible to get efficient men
when they were wanted ; and that when men were dis-
charged from a man-of-war they either went into foreign
service or the merchant service, or got some sort of em-
ployment, for they required bread as well as other men;
and then, in three or four years time, if' they should
happen to be wanted, they were not to be had. But at
present the state of the navy was not so bad as the Gal-
lant Officer supposed, for all the vessels were Well manned,
except, he believed, the Queen, the Hibernia, and the
Canopus. As to what the Gallant Offieer had stated
about men unfit to use the lead in the chains, he (Sir
G. Cockburn) begged to say that when he was in com-
mend of a ship he always tried his men before he
rated them.

Captain BERKELEY said that the men he had men-
tioned had been sent to him rated.

Sir G. COCKBURN then continued, by saying that
very few vessel, of war had now more than six ur eight
landsmen each in them. Ile cor.curred in the observa-
tions of the Gallant Officer, that men-of-war sent
abroad should be manned by efficient seamen. When he
(Sir G. Cockburn) was in command of a ship, the navy
was ie. a most efficient state, because it was necessary
then ; and he remembered, upon ono occasion, that
several men-of-war were ready at forty-eight hours'
notice to sail for Lisbon. Ile could assure the Gallant
Officer that means had lately been adopted to procure
efficient men ; and when the vessels now in preparation
were ready, they would be taken to the mouth of the
Channel, and the qualifications of the sailors and
marines then tried. As to what had been said about
not having ten sail of the lino always in commission and
ready for sea at a short notice, that was matter for the
consideration of Government, and they would have
them ready if they should deem it necessary, but the
question was, was it necessary to put the country to such
au expense at such a period.—(Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to men entering the merchant service in preference
to the navy, he conceived that the contrary was the fact,
for when men entered the merchant service they were so
badly treated, and had so many deductions made from
them, that they entered the navy when they could.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not know that he had left any
other point of the Gallant Officer's speech unnoticed.
Mr. SONIES remarked that a good deal had been said
of the paucity of men at present in the navy, and for his
part he could not understand how Hon. Members could
indulge in assertions of this nature. In 1814 the num-
ber of seamen in the service was 170,576, and at the
present time the number wa5216,350, making an increase
of 42,000. He however admitted that the number of men
who were active and able had not increased in propor-
tion to the quality that were in the service in 1814.
Mr. H. LAMBTON aomplained.that the crimping
system was the cause of the existence of groat evirs
amongst seamen. Numbers of poor sailors who
entered the port of Lon.lon were daily being plundered
by these crimps, and he thought Government ought to
take some steps to put an end to the system. There
was another abuse which ought to be put down. When
sailors came into the port of London they were seized
upon by low boarding-house keepers, who plunged them
into every sort of vice, and when they had got all their
eout
es of
ooi
eotp,uhue :If
ssme e
odGtunt
ohsysearyidprdeuntrtmuarattenhinnoeetnder
whe taaohnuet
dwolmd
at
htsieaneekts oeei f
ttashl
bioceumsgt:l3oert r
arse
.eamaet
tet
tsat
ao
scarcity of men in the service in 1824 a means
intomoney
starve.
t
coucladprtiaoitnbeßd
as great
there was
at the present time, but he did notlittia,tribite the evils
rather to
which existed in the navy to this e 4
the want of experienced and efficient officers.ti)ut
well known that when they arrived at a certain titme "Of
life they began to think women were mot so handsome
as they had before imagined them ; and, in his opinion,
some Hon. Members had arrived at that time of life'
when they began to think seamen were not so able and
active as they were formerly.—(Laughter.) But if they
wished to have good seamen in the service, they must
take care to have active and experienced officers over them.
At present ships were allowed to remain at home, and
he thought, of all the absurdities iu the world, that of

suffering a full-manned vessel never to leave her moor-
ings was the greatest. These vessels were supplied
with some thirty or forty-five active young fellows,
who were anxiously expecting that they would ono day
become officers, but whose inexperience did more injury
to the service than anything else. He recollected an
instance of a line-of-battle ship having been kept at
her moorings for three years and three months, and
then sent to sea. Now, what was the result ? Why,
half the seamen were sea-sick, and the vessel itself was
found unseaworthy. If they wanted to have an efficient
service, they must place active and experienced officers
over the men, and not put persons in command who had
never seen a storm or a squall. He would break up
the fifteen line-of-battle ships, and distribute the men
and officers amongst small brigs. If Government would
adopt this plan, the service would be restored to its
former state, for thus the men and the officers would
have an opportunity of being oonstantly at sea and in
squalls.
Captain PECUELL concurred with the Hon. and
Gallant Member who had just sat down, anti thought it
was sufficiently clear that the Hon. and Gallant Member
admitted the existence of the want of men in the navy.
Now he should be glad if the Hon and Gallant Member
would explain how it happened that when he was in com-
mand of the Pique, and was required of his superior
officer to furl a sail, or to perform some other manoeuvre
whilst in the Bay of Cadiz, he stated that he was unable
to do so because some of his men were absent in a boat.
Why did not the Hon. and Gallant Member state the
real cause of his being unable to perform it, namely, that
his ship was not sufficiently manned.
Captain ROUS—It is the first time I ever heard
of it.

Captain PECHELL said he had been informed of the
circumstance by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Gloucester, who at the time it occurred was in command
in the bay of Cadiz. He believed they had the will to
man their ships properly, but they would not effect that
ohject in the way they were proceeding. He complained
of the way that men were transferred from one ship to
another. The moment a ship was paid off, the seaman
whether belonging to the navy or merchant service was
considered a mark to be plundered by every person who
was so inclined—that was a system which ought to be
reprobated. Another thing which seamen had to com-
plain of was their being placed in the ten-gun brigs. It
was well known that they were unsafe, and not fit to be
used as the means of conveyance between this country.
What was the opinion of the country with respect to
them? Why, several of those vessels were offered for
sale at Somerset House by Mr. Corry and Sir William
Symonds. They asked I,OOOE for each of them, but
they would not fetch even 5001. Then, again,
they had good reason to complain as to the payment
of their wages. They felt that they were not paid well
enough, and he told them it would be well to raise the
wages of seamen now, when it was probable that they
would be obliged to raise them in a short time. His
Hon. Friend alluded to the want of able-bodied men.
That was a matter which the country had a deep interest
in. Hoiv could it be expected that those able-bodied
men would come to them, when their wages were so
small ? They would not come back till a more liberal
system was adopted towards them. They were gone, he
was afraid, to America and elsewhere, where they were
better paid. The Gallant Officer stated that it was the
intention of the Government to man the experimental
squadron, and to give the ships the proper complements.
That was very good, but what he (Captain Pechell)
wanted was, that the same system should be carried out
generally with regard to the navy. Those ships may
not be wanted alone at the chops of the Channel. They
might be wanted again at Tangiers, to look after the
Prince de Joinville and the Belle Poule. They were
told they ought not to speak of that Prince; but if their
presence were wanted in any part of the world, they
ought to be in a position to enable them to be there with
effect. He knew that the Admiralty were not the
great obstacle to what he required. Ile knew the great
obstacle was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was
a millstone around the necks of the Board. But there
were the Hon. Member for Montrose and the lion.
Member for Coventry, who looked so well after,the pub-
lic purse, and they had no objection to see the navy of
the country put into a proper and efficient condition.
Mr. SOMES explained.
Lord INGESTRE rose for the purpose of expressing
his assent to what had fallen from his lion. and Gallant
Friend the Member for Westminster. He thought that
no more important question could come before the
House than the way in which their ships were manned.
The lion. and Gallant Member for Brighton had spoken
of the way in which the seamen belonging to the navy
were treated ; but be believed that they had more com-
forts in the British navy than in any service in the world.
He gave the present Government credit for wishing to
see the navy properly manned.
Sir C. NAPIER said that the night Hon. and Gallant
Officer had frequently complained that the Hon.
Members on his (Sir C. Napier's) side of the House
were constantly finding fault. The same assertion had
been repeated on that night. He declared now, as he
had done on former occasions, that he had no wish
whatever to find fault with any Board of Admiralty—
the present or any other—however constituted. He felt
satisfied that his lion. Friend the Member for Glou-
cester did not gat up for the purpose of finding fault. It
.interest was not their to find fault. Had ho (Sir C.
Napier) remained silent—had he behaved himself in a
proper manner—(Laughter)—he would be now in a
better position. The Hon. and Gallant Officer smiled
at this, but it was not she less likely that had he been
more quiet, and less given to the fair and open ex-
hression of his opinion on naval matters, he would now
ave been in command of the experimental squadron, or
at least of one of the ships belonging to it. A Lord of
the Admiralty had assured him that he would have
been very happy to see him in command, and had
asked him what ship he liked ; but when ho
subsequently expressed surprise at having been
passed over, he was told that he was too
violent and too much of a party man. He disclaimed
being a party man, or a violent man, upon any question
in which the naval service of this country was concerned,
and he defied any one to show it. He had long sought,
by private representations to the Admiralty, to reform
abuses, and render the service more effective, but found
such representations utterly useless. Nothing could be
done for the navy in that House, except by agitation.—
(Hear.) It was the only way to get ships properly manned
and fitted out. Unless when driven by public opinion,
the Government never would abandon their old course.
The Gallant Officer seemed offended that his Hon. and
Gallant Friend should have said, on a former occasion,
that the navy was not sufficiently manned ; and the
Gallant Officer then said, or at least was reported to have
said, that the ships were as well manned as in war time.
The next morning', when ho (Sir Charles Napier) went to
the United Service Club, he was at once surrounded
by about twenty officers who asked him if it were possible
that Sir George Cockburn had said, that ships were as
well manned as they used to be. lle answered that
he believed it was, and they expressed their surprise at
such a statement. The Gallant Officer further stated
that he had mustered the ships and found them well
manned. His (Sir C. Napier's) opinion was, that the
eight sail of the line now in commission wore very
badly manned. He was in Portsmouth a few days ago,
and asked many inferior officers there (whoso names he
would not mention, because it would probably be inju-
rious to them) what there opinions were as to the state
of the navy, and the general opinion was, that the ships
were extremely ill-manned. lie could not conceive why
those men would say so, if it were not the case, and it also
seemed strange that the Gallant Officer opposite should
express himself with confidence in a directly opposite
manner. This would be very puzzling, was it not very
well known, that the Admiralty was not
the place which truth could reach. Officers
looking out for employment were always ready
to put that construction upon the state of the
navy which they thought would please the Board. He
did net blame the Admiralty for not manning the ships.
It was not their fault—they were placed there to do the
best they could—the fault lay with the Government.
When the present Government came into power, they
found 26 sail of the line in commission, most of which
had been at sea for a considerable time, and their crews
in a good state of discipline ; but the Government re-
duced that number to five or six. The first year they
reduced the fleet in the Mediterranean to twelve-; the
next to eight ; and the third to one. When they were
in difficulties, all they could produce was three sail of
the line, and one of these had to go to South America.
They had now a fleet of ten sail of the line, and he hoped
they at least would be well manned and efficiently fitted
out.—(llear, hear.) The Gallant Officer expressed his
surprise that they should get the men so quick.
Why, what did he call quick ? In January or
December last the first ship was commissioned,
and they were then in the middle of May, and eight sail
of the line were net ready. Surely there must be some
bungling hero, wherever or however that bungling took
place. Ships which had left Plymouth commissioned,
were brought into Portsmouth, and taken into dock for
examination, to have an inspection of their bottoms,
at a cost of 500/. or 600/. to the country, and after
being commissioned, they were taken into dock again I
Why could not this inspection have taken place before
they were commissioned ? He thought the Government
were wrong in pursuing this economical course. If they
wished to have a proper squadron they must not send
the ships to sea with inferior crews. When such was
the case officers became slovenly, and the men dissatis-
fied. Things could not be done with that instantaneous
precision and dispatch so necessary on board a ship, nor,
indeed, in a manner befitting the dignity of a British
roan-of--war. The men were incensed and disgusted with
eternal work, and were much in the same condition as
Sir Pultenoy Malcolm spoke of, when ho said,
they were " all hands all day, and every
body at night."—(Hear, hear.) If they wished to
make the naval service popular, they must give up all
notions of this miserable economy. It was better to
send but few ships to sea, but send those few properly
manned. It was not the number of men which was so
expensive, but the wear and tear of the ships. If the
ships were fitted out on a more liberal scale, men would
be obtained with more case, and sailors would discharge
their duty when they had but their own proper duty to
perform, with a more hearty goodwill. The Hon. and
Gallant Commodore then mentioned the defective man-
ning of the Albion, which, though a very largo 90-gun
ship, had only the same number of' men as the nuts-
derer, of less capacity. lie felt surprised that the Hon.
and Gallant Baronet should tell his Hon. and Gallant
Friend that seamen were as good as ever. It was im-
possible that such should be the ease. Their seamen}
had been destroyed by the steam-vessels. They might
have very good stokers, engineers, and coalheavers now,
but not sailors.—(Hear, hear.) They might find such
maasshnteinrcoaisbstt:
1001
out
mealvtvtlyloy,a)twhfnioi
night?—were
ta? mainsail, but were they the sort of
men that would run up the top of the yards Ori A Fuld
—werethey
difficulty?—(Hear,the hsoeretr.)of mivnento
the
pasld
now,
idnonae sihnotrit time,
formed perseded by milroads, by whichviwnoatull great,
trade, The
mea-
sure 0--
Hon. Gentlemen opposite mighttelcaouagsht,ingut steam had
been a great blow to the training of aearaen. Lord