The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-21 00:00:00

MAYNOOTH.

Earl FITZWIL LIAM presented a petition against
the sale of spiritual liquors on the Sabbath. As also one
against the so-called endowment of the college of Mayneoth.
This latter, the Noble Lord observed, had been presented by
Dissenters, who objected to the grant, not en the grounds of
its being an endowment of a Roman Catholic establishment,
but because they protested against the State conferring gifts
for the upholding any Church, whether Protestant or Roman
Catholic. The spirit of the petitioners must be understood
therefore to be equally as strong against the endowment of the
former as of the latter Church. He entirely dissented from
the whole scope and view of the petition, both as regarded its
hostility to the grant to Maynooth, and its opposition to all
ecclesiastical establishments. For his part he looked upon this
endowment of Maynooth as a payment of a small instal-
ment of what was due to the people of Ireland. He did
not say the Roman Catholics of Ireland, but the people of Ire-
land, because the Roman Catholics were in truth the people,
and it was a misnomer to designate them in any other way.
He would go a step further and express his satisfaction at the
further measures which the Ministers had proposed for estab-
lishing academical institutions in Ireland ; but before he alluded
to that subject he would express his belief, and his hope, so far
as the Maynooth Bill was concerned, that her Majesty's Minis-
ters intended to go much further than that. All he would say
was, that if the Ministry intended to stop there, they were per-
sons who did not comprehend the results of the measures which
they had proposed ; and as he believed they were perfectly
competent to form ajust judgment on their own measures, he gave
them credit for the intention of doing a great deal more than
they had done, and he was glad to give them credit for such
intentions. With regard to the colleges which it had been
proposed to establish, he had understood that there were per-
sons possessing more enthusiasm than religion—persons who
mistook names for things—who looked rather to their anticipa-
tions than to the recollections of their own early life, who had
called these colleges Godless colleges. He should be extremely
sorry if any establishment in this country could justly be de•
signated by such a term. He would take leave to think that
those persons who had invented the term had applied
it very moneously. He would take leave also to
think that those persons, if they had been educated
in the academical establishments of this country, could
not have any very accurate recollection of the period which
they had passed at those establishments. Although it was true
that there were theological professors there and theological
lectures were delivered, yet he apprehended, with the excep-
tion perhaps of the two Right Rev, personages he saw sitting
on the benches opposite, that there were few among their
Lordships who, while they were at Oxford or Cambridge, had
attended the lectures of the theological professors. And with
respect to their being educated at Oxford, those who had been
educated there in later times rnight,:perhaps, recollect not only
that they had not attended such lectures, but that the highest
authorities in the university, if they had not prohi-
bited, had strongly recommended the students nut to
attend the lectures of the theological professor.—(Hear.)
He was not one of those who believed that the establishment
of these colleges would lead to the disastrous consequences
which these persons predicted. He was not afraid that they
would tend to propagate infidelity. Infidelity was much
more likely to arise from the hostile spirit which actuated
one sect against another, and if they could succeed in educat-
ing the youths of different sects together—in inducing them
to take their enjoyments and recreations together, they
would go a long way towards destroying that spirit of intoler-
ance with which each sect regarded the other. The Noble
Lord concluded by presenting the petition.
The Marquis of NORM A NI3Y presented a petition from a
person of the name of Percival, praying their Lordships to
appoint a Committee to inquire into the constitution of
the Commission with respect to lunacy. The Noble
Lord despaired, at the present period of the session, of the
appointment of the Committee. Before, however, he made
any motion on the subject, he was anxious to hear what course
the Government intends I to pursue on the subject.
The Duke of MONTB OSE presented several petitions
against the grant to the college of Maynooth.
The Earl of KINN AIRD presented similar petitions.
The Marquis of BRE AD A LI3 AN E presented forty-four peti-
tions from different parts of Scotland to the Mille effect.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions from Derby
praying for relief to t he agricultural classes.

forCIBEAUAIONT gave notice that, on Thursday next, he
should move for papers with respect to Greece.
Lord NOUNTCASHEL postponed the motion of which he

had given notice till Friday next, with respect to coroners'
inquests.
The Earl of ZETLAND presented several petitions against
the grant to Maynooth from places in Yorkshire.
SOUTHAMPTON DOCKS BILL.

On the motion of Lord REDESUALE this Bill was read a
second time.

CLERKENWELL IMPROVEMENTS.
On the motion of I, rd REDESDA LE the Bill for forming
a new street to Cierkenwell-green was read a third time.
Their Lordships adjourned at half-past Six o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.
The report on the Scottish Central Railway Bill, the
Edircburgh and Glasgow Railway Bill, and several other
Bills were brought up and agreed to, and the Bills ordered
to be engrossed.
GRAND JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.

On the motion for the further consideration of the
Report on the Grand Junction Raik ay Bill, several pe-
titions were presented against it.
Mr. RICARDO rose to oppose the Bill, and said that
it would great;y injure a larg, portion of his constituents
without cunferring any benefit upon the district through
which it passed. He protested on the part of his constituents
against the Bill. He did no.. consider it a project which would
in any respect promote their interests. He, therefore, moved
that the further consideration of it be postponed till that day
six months.
Mr. W. PATTEN vindicated the decision of the Com-
mittee.
Mr. lIAWES, as Chairman of the Committee to which
the Bill had been referred, defended the decision to which it
had come respecting the 13111.
Mr. GISBORNE said that the inhabitants of the Potteries
were all opposed to this railway.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND opposed the Bill, on the
ground that it would exclude the formation of a railway more
advantageous to the district.
Lord G. SOMERSET said that if it had been proved to
the Committee that the company who applied for the Bill pos-
sessed capital enough to carry out the purposes, they would
have been much disposed to report in favour of the measure.
11r. F. FRENCH, as a member of the Committee, de-
fended the report.
After a few words from Mr. H. BERKELEY and Mr.
RICA RDO,
Mr. ENTWISLE addressed the House in support of the
report, when he was interrupted by
The Usher of the Black Rod, who summoned the House to
the House of Lords to attend a Royal Commission.
On the SPEAKER'S return, he stated that the House had
been to the House of Peers, and had heard her Majesiy's
Royal Assent given to several Bills.—(For which see Lords'
Report.)

_
GRAND JUNCTION RAILWAY.
The discussion upon the report of this Bill was then resumed,
when

Mr. ENT WISLE continued—lf the House did not wish
.o have the decisions of their Committees continually brought
before them, so prolonging the session to an indefinite period,
they would receive the report.
After a few words from Mr. Alderman COPELAND,
The House divided, when there appeared_
For the motion
For the amendment ...
Majority in favour of the amendment ---133
Lord HOWICK thought it incumbent on the Government
to introduce some regulations with reference to the charges
upon railways. In some cases charges were very high, and in
others very low. His opinion was, that in some eases higher
charges were established than were consistent with the
welfare of the public. This House ought at once
to make these alterations, as they could not be made in the
House of Lords. In one railway 3d. a ton per mile was
charged upon coals, in another only Id., sometimes only 1,4 d.
where the competition was great. On many railways the
charges for passengers were 3d., 2d., and 11/2d. a mile in the
first, second, and third class. Now these charges were too high.
With respect to the old companies, he believed there was no
redress to be had ; but he belived the object of the Govern-
ment in introducing this new standing order was
to establish a new rate of charges in the dif-
ferent conveyances of the new companies, and reduce those
that should be doemed to be unreasonable. This was a ques-
tion of great importance, and before the present railway Bills
were read a third time he trusted the Government would
take up the question.
Sir G. CLERK concurred with the Noble Lord, that it
would be a very proper question for the consideration of the
Board of Trade ; but beyond a suggestion he did not think they
should have anything to do with it.
Mr. L A BOUCHERE did think the Board of Trade should
direct their serious attention to this question with a view
to establish some regularity as well as moderation in the
charges.--The Bill was then agreed to.
Mr. HINDLEY moved that the petition of Mr. Joseph
Higginbottom, clerk of the Commissioners of Police of Ashton-
under-Lyne (presented 19th May), be referred to the Com-
mitten on the Manchester and Salford Waterworks Bill; and
that it be an instruction to the Committee to permit the peti-
tioner to be heard by counsel or agent.
Mr. GREENE resisted the motion, after which it was
withdrawn.
The London, Bedford and Birmingham Railway Bill was
then read a second time.
Mr. R. PALMER brought up the report on the Chester
and Holyhead Railway Bill.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS presented a petition in favour
of the Wexford and Carlow Railway Bill.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved that it be an instruction to
the Committee on the Tottenham and Farringdon-street Ex-
tension Railway Bill, in the matter of the petition from Clerk-
enwell, to hear the petitioners against the said Bill. The rea-
son he made that motion was, because there was an order by
which the Committee could not hear any petition that had not
been presented at least three days before the striking of the
Committee ; but in the present case it would have been im-
possible that the petition could have been presented in that
time, owing to the peculiar circumstances. Indeed, he felt it
would be almost unnecessary to make this application at all, but
he did so because he had heard that another Committee had
refused to hear a petition circumstanced as the one mentioned
in his motion.
The motion was then agreed to.
NORTH WALES RAILWAY.
Mr. FITZROY KELLY presented a petition against the
North Wales Mineral Railway Bill.
The Belfast Lough Drainage Bill was read a second time.
Mr. WARD presented a petition against the Sheffield and
Lincoln line of railway.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he should, on that day fort-
night, bring the subject of the services of Sir Henry Pottinger
before the House.

command of the Temporary Brigade in the sery ice of the King
of Ourle, and including the letter of the Go\ rernor-Gcneral.
(Lord Wellesley) to Saadut Ali Khan, Nabob if Lucknow.
Mr. HUME, in the absence of Mr. Williarit, moved for
a return of the number of persons belonging to tier Ecclesias-
tical Establishment of the Church of England, and all other
religious denominations, maintained by grant of public money,
in each of the colonies, and the territories of the. East India
Company, stating the amount paid out of the revenue of the
United Kingdom, and from the Colonial funds, and also the
rank of each person, where stationed, the amount of fixed
salary, allowances, and all other expenses of each, and the
total expenses of each colony, presidency, and dependency for
such establishment, in sterling money, so as to exhibit the
whole amount paid for the support of religion of every deno-
mination, in each year from 1.839 to 184.4, both inclusive.
Return of all grants of public money for the support of all re-
ligious denominations in the flatted Kingdom and elsewhere,
except the Colonies, including expenses of visitations and ex-
cursions of bishops, archdeacons, and clergy, or connected
with foreign embassies and missions ; distinguishing the
amount received by each denomination:—Also, for building
and repair of churches and chapels, payment of arrears of
tithes, expenses of the commissioners for building new
churches, commutation of tithes, and all other ecclesiastical
purposes, for each year from 1830 to 1844, both inclusive.
Return of the amount of all grants of public money for
the building and repair of churches and chapels in the
United Kingdom, stating the amount received by each reli-
gious denomination, from the year 1800 to 1829, both inclu-
sive, which was agreed to.
UNION WORKHOUSES.
•

Colonel ROLLESTON moved for a return of the number of
children between the ages of nine and sixteen, both years in-
clusive, at present maintained within the several union work-
houses in England and Wales, distinguishing the males from
the females ; together with the number of each sex apprenticed
out of the said union workhouses since the passing and subject
to the provisions of the late Poor-law Amendment Act, speci-
fying their ages sad the trades to which they are apprenticed,
which was agreed to.
PRINTED PAPERS—PRIVILEGE-
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the appointment of
the following members to the Select Committee on printed
papers :—Sir R. Peel, Lord John Russell, Mr. Solicitor-Ge-
neral, Sir Thomas Wilde, Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland,
Sir George Grey, Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Mr. Francis Ba-
ring, Viscount Mahon, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Wynn, Mr. Ber-
nal, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Pigot, and the Lord
Advocate.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said the last time the subject of Privi-
lege was before the Queen's Bench, the Solicitor-General. ( Sir
Wm. Follett) expressed his strong opinion that the decision
would be against the House, and the Hon. Member for Wor-
cester at that time asked this question—Supposing
the decision of the Queen's Bench was not in favour
of the House, what would come ? Igo answer was
given to that. It now appeared that a decision against the
House had been come to by that Court in an action biaaught
against the Sergeant-at-Arms, and it was now the intention of
the House to refer the matter to a Committee up stairs- What
could that Committee possibly do ? After the decision of the
Queen's Bench, in the former case, the Government were
obliged to bring in a J3ill to legalise the publications of that
House. The question was discussed before Committees of
that House, and they reported upon it. Now it was proposed to
refer the subject to another Committee. Why it was only de-
laying the evil. He was opposed to referring the question of
privilege to another Committee. He wished to ask whether
he wns not correct in stating that another action had been
brought against the Sergeant-at-Arms?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the Han. Member
was perfectly correct in stating that :another action had been
brought by a person named Pearce. It would be impossible to
say what form the action might assume. He thought that at
the present moment the House was not prepared to discuss the
question, and it was necessary that a Committee should be ap-
pointed to inquire into and report upon it. He would suggest
that the Committee should not point out any mode of proceed-
ing, but simply c;:i.sder the question.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, who was understood
to oppose the motion,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he understood that the Sergeant-
at - Arms had received notice of action. When he received the
writ, the House would then have to consider what course it
would pursue. The report of the Committee would not in-
fluence the decision of the House. He must say that the
House could not take any course without having the whole
facts of the case before it. He thought a Committee might
materially assist the House in its judgment on this important
matter. The Hon, Member (Mr. buncombe), he thought,
had not understood him. Lord Denman had said, in the House
of Lords, that on a point of privilege, not on a technical point,
the Queen's Bench would come to a decision adverse to the
House.
Mr. WARD said the Lord Chief Justice, in delivering
judgment, had laid down his opinions on this very doubtful
point, which he thought might assist the Committee in their
labours.
Sir R. INGLIS was in favour of the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, for his own part he must confess
that on hearing the motion made last night, he thought it ad-
visable that the House, before coming to a decision, should
have all the facts before it, and he was now of the same
opinion. The question was a most important one, and it was
necessary that a Committee should be appointed to investi-

gate it.
The motion was then agreed to.
TRINITY COLLEGE, DUBLIN.

Mr. H. BERKELEY said that he had a notice on the paper
with relation to the Insolvency Act. He wished to know
whether, if he postponed his motion till Thursday next, the
Right Hon. Baronet would make a house.—( Laughter. )
Sir R. PEEL said that it had not been usual, of late years,
to keep the 29th of May as a holiday, and he thought the
present state of business would not allow it this sessiun.
Mr. B. OSBORNE gave notice that, on the Speaker's
leaving the chair on the Irish Colleges Bill, he should move an
instruction to the Committee regulating the admission to
honours in the Universities.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD gave notice that, on the vote being
proposed for the grant of money to the Presbyterians of Ireland,
he should move that such vote be rejected.
REPEAL AGITATION IN IRELAND.
Mr. FERRAND said he had a question to put to the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment. He had not given notice of the question, but if the
Right Hon. Baronet required it he would do so. The ques-
tion had reference to the following subject :—He perceived by
a recent number of a Dublin newspaper, the Freeman's Journal,
that a repeal demonstration was about to take place on the Hill
of Tara, and the programme of the demonstration was stated
in the following words :—(Here the Hon Member read the
advertisement, stating the order in which their meeting was to
assemble and then continued by saying)—His question was,
whether her Majesty's Government were prepared in the year
1845, as they were in 1843, to assert the majesty of the law,
or were they to permit Mr. O'Connell and the repealers to
trample the law under loot?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that though the Honourable
Member had not given him notice of his intention
to ask the question, he would, however, answer it.—( Hear
hear.) He was aware that a popular assembly such as the
Hon. Gentleman had mentioned was about to take place in
Ireland, and he begged to say that the Lord Lieutenant had re-
ceived directions to take care that the peace of that country
should be preserved on that occasion.—( Hear, hear.)
CALL OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. HUME said he had a question to ask. He had a
notice on the paper for the :22.d, for a call of the House, and
he wished to know if that notice could be brought on on
that day?
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member's notice would
come on in the order in which it was placed, like all other
notices.

Sir R. PEEL hoped that Hon. Members would waive their
right of precedence in order not to cause the postponement of
the Maynooth Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He understood that the
Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had consented to waive his
right, and he did hope that other Hon. Members would do the
same, in order to facilitate the public business.—(Hear.)
NEW ZEALAND.
Captain ROUS said, the last time he addressed the House
on the subject of New Zealand he brought certain charges
against the New Zealand Company. Now he considered, that
if he did not prove the assertions he had made at the earliest
opportunity, Hon. Gentlemen might consider that they were
groundless. He did not wish to interrupt the business of the
House, but he was anxious to express his sentiments on the
subject of New Zealand.

Sir ROBERT PEEL repeated, that he understood that
the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton and the Hon. Member
for Westminster (Captain Rous) would not bring on their
motions to-night. He (Sir Robert Peel) very much doubted
whether Hon. Members had come down to the House prepared
to take a part in the discussion.
Mr. C. BULLER said it was necessary to state that the
New Zealand Company were most anxious to have the charges
made against them in that Huuse fairly discussed. He must,
however, tell the Hon. and Gallant Captain that he was not
then prepared to discuss the question which he was desirous
to bring before the House--namely, the question that " the
treaty of Waitangi, confirmed and approved by her Majesty,
ought to he maintained with the strictest integrity." When he
(Mr. C. Buller) came down to the House he had not the
slightest impression that the Hon. and Gallant Captain meant
to take an opportunity of bringing forward any charges which
he had to make against the Company. He (Captain Rous)
had not told the precise nature of those charges. He would,
under these circumstances, tell the Hon. and Gallant Captain
that he was exceedingly glad that he was prepared to redeem
the pledge which he had given to substantiate the accusations
he had brought against the Company. As he had not come
down at all prepared to enter into a debate on the subject, he
hoped that the Hon. Member would adopt the course that had
been pointed out, and withdraw his motion.
Captain ROUS said he had made two distinct charges
against the New Zealand Company, which could not be mis-
understood. If he had been one of the directors, he would
not have rested till they had been fully entered into, and
would have been happy if any Hon. Member had brought for-
ward the subject which might give them an opportunity of
discussing the whole question respecting the New Zealand
Company. It was more for the sake of the Company than
anything else, that he was desirous of bringing the question
forward. However, he should be ready at all times and sea-
sons to bring forward the motion. If the directors were dis-
posed to remain comfortable for the next six weeks under the
aspersions he had cast upon them—( A laugh)--he, for one,
should not object to it.
Mr. M. GIBSON deprecated the rule that an adjourned de-
bate should take precedence of other motions. Much incon-
venience would arise if the House were to adopt this course.
As far as he was concerned, he should like to hear this New
Zealand question better than the Maynooth business.
The Hon. Member then withdrew his motion.

Mr. OSBORNE moved for a return of all monies derived
from rents of college lands, endowments, bequests, fees on
matriculations, and taking of degrees; specifying the amount
of income paid therefrom to the senior and junior Fellows,
professors, scholars, and other officers of Trinity College,
Dublin.
Sir T. FREMANTLE requested the Hon. Member to post-
pone the motion to a future day.
Mr. OSBORNE declined doing so. If he postponed it he
would never get another day during the session.-.4 A laugh. )
Sir G. GREY (as we understood) recommended the with-
drawal of the motion.
Mr. OSBORNE would press the motion to a division. He
wished to see Trinity College, Dublin, thrown open to all
religious denominations of his fellow subjects, and he thought
it desirable that they should know what the salaries of the
fellows there were. It was a corporate body, and why should
it be closed against inquiry ?
Mr. WARD seconded the motion.
Mr. HUME hoped there would be no opposition to the
motion. They were called upon to vote away a large suns of
public money, and he considered the inquiry proposed would
be an exceedingly appropriate preliminary to that vote.
Mr. SHAW opposed the motion. The property of the
College was private property.—(oh, oh.) He saw no reason
why the House should enter into the consideration of such a
question. There was no necessity for it. Her Majesty's
Government had opposed a similar motion last year, and he
hoped they would do so now.
Mr. WARD said what her Majesty's Government had done
last year was no precedent for what they would do this.
Mr. WARBURTON supported the motion, and thought
the inquiry which had been instituted by a Commission into
public charities and places of education in England and Wales,
formed a sufficient ground in point of precedent for the inquiry
proposed.
Sir T. FREMANTLE thought that precedent justified a
course the very reverse of that which the Hon. Member for
Kendal advocated, for the Commission in question, though it
touched upon other places of education, did not at all refer to
the English Universities. The property of Trinity College
had certainly been considered in the light of private property,
and he hoped the House would not accede to the motion.
Mr. EWART thought that the reason why inquiry had not
been instituted into the Universities by this Commission. was
because the House considered that a return to that House of
their revenues would be a matter of course.
Mr. SHEIL said the property of Trinity College consisted
partly of a grant of Bishop Baldwin, but the greater part of its
property was conferred on it by Queen Elizabeth, the estate of
the Earl of Desmond, which had been forfeited. These estates
were mostly situated in the county of Kerry. Why should not
inquiry be extended to the revenues of Trinity College
when the property, or at least so large a portion
of it, was a gift of the Crown ?—( Hear, hear.)
On a former occasion he had stated that the senior fellows of
Trinity College, Dublin, had 2,0001. a year each—he was con-
tradicted by the Hon. Gentleman the Recorder, who said that
it was an exaggeration. His (Mr. Shell's) belief was that
many of these fellowships were almost sinecures, and being of
that opinion, and in order to prevent the possibility of his
being charged with exaggeration on any future occasion when
he mentioned the revenues of Trinity College, he would vote
for the present motion.
Sir R. INGLIS opposed the motion. The House had no
right to interfere with what might be considered private pro-
perty, unless some abuse was alleged. None was alleged here,
therefore there was no ground for inquiry.
Mr. BELLEW said that there was no allegation of abuse as
regarded the Scotch Universities, but inquiry had been insti-
tuted notwithstanding.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON supported the motion. The
Government were not willing to allow the principle of full in-
quiry to be carried out, they restricted it as they did that of
free trade, forbidding its extension to corn and sugar.
the
showed revenues
there o f
must Trinity ibneit
something Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE had heard no good reason why
inquirystited
qy. notitbsein
con-
stitution, when its defenders were so anxious to avoid in-
uir
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Member for Dumfries had as-
signed no reason why Trinity College, Dublin, should be ex-
empted from the rule in other cases. He did not remember
yCollege
e shou
rottenld in
any case in which the House had by its own authority called
upon Oxford and Cambridge universities for returns of their
revenue. if the rule were applicable to English universities,
there was a case in point ; but he very much doubted whether
the House had ever called upon any English college to furnish
it with returns of its revenues.
Mr. WA RD—Oxford.
Sir R. PEEL—That was by royal commission.— ( Hear,
hear.) He had voted last session against a similar motion,
and would most certainly oppose this on the same ground.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was far from saying that in
every case they ought to order returns of the revenues
of universities, but he conceived that a case had been
made out for returns in this instance. The House was about
voting a considerable sum for academical education in Ireland,
and a statement had been made by his Right Hon. Friend that
the fellows of Trinity College had 2,000/. a year whilst their si-
tuations were almost sinecures, or at least they had a very light
duty to perform. He thought these circumstances formed suffi-
cient reason for acceding to the motion. If any other mode
for attaining this object had been suggested by the Minister
of the Crown he would have been willing that the present
motion should fall to the ground, even though that mode in-
volved delay, but in the absence of any such proposal, and
after the speech of the Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland,
he felt that he had no alternative.
Mr. COLQUHOUN opposed the motion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. Member who had
just sat down had misrepresented him respecting the applica-
tion of his argument in favour of the proposed measure for the
endowment of colleges in Ireland; and also in reference to the
Right Hon. Member for Dungarvon (Mr. Sheil) in regard to
fellowships.
Mr. BRIGHT said if there was nothing to conceal, why did
the Government oppose the motion, or throw obstacles in the
way of ti,e Hon. Member for Wycombe? Should they persist
in doing so, he should feel justified in voting against every
stage of the proposed Bill for the endowment of additional col-
leges in Ireland. This he conceived to be a proper course, so
long as they refused to give information respecting the manner
in which the funds were at present applied.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. OSBORNE made a few observations in reply, intimat-
ing that unless the Government gave a pledge to institute the
necessary inquiry, he should certainly divide the House.
Strangers were then ordered to withdrarv, and the House di-
vided, when there appeared—
For the motion .......................... 53
Againstit ........................... 82
Majority against the motion ...... 29
Mr. COLQUHOUN presented a petition from a number
of delegates at present in London, representing 30 f places,
120 of them Parliamentary boroughs, against the Maynooth
grant.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition, signed by 538 dele-
gates and deputies, assembled to-day at Crosby-hall, and re-
presenting the great body of the Dissenters, against the May-
nooth Bill.
Mr. Ward, Mr. Bright, Mr. Sharman Crawford, Sir G.
Grey, Mr. Muntz, Mr. Dawson, arid several other Hon.
Members, also presented a great number of petitions to the
same effect.

THE COLONIES—CEYLON,
Mr. TUFFNELL postponed his motion fora copy of the
dispatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, referred
to in the minute of the Governor of Ceylon, dated the 14th of
February, 1845.
Mr. WATSON postponed his motion for "copies of all
correspondence between the East India Company and their
residents at Lucknow, from the year 1775 to 1801 inclusive,
respecting the appointment of Captain Robert Frith to the

Tii E SU N, LONDON, WEDNESDA t^MORNING, MAY 21, 1815.

Several petitions in favour of the Bill were also presented by
i Ron Members.
t MAYNOOTH BILL—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
s; Sir H. W. BARRON said that several of the petitioners who
Ii had addressed that House had stated that all State endowments
were opposed to sound religion. But when he saw nine
f' out of ten opponents to the Bill supporting the endowment of
religion, considering it useful, valuable and necessary to have
the Church supported by the State, he was surprised to ob-
serve this large body taking advantage of a cry raised on a
totally different principle. He repeated he was surprised that
they should condescenl to take advantage of this most im-
proper cry, and coming down to the House, tell her Majesty's
Ministers that their measures were not in accordance with the
feelings of the country.
An HoN. MEMBER here moved that the House be counted,
but more than sixty Members haring been found present,
Sir H. W. BA RRON resumed. He had read the petitions
of the Dissenters who were adverse to the Government mea-
sure, and if their wishes and prayers meant anything, it was not
that an endowment of Alaynooth was objectionable, but
that, being obnoxious to the principle of the State en-
dowing any religion whatsoever, they entered their oppo-
sition on the broad and intelligible grounds of the inexpediency
of the State interfering with the Church. What, then, be-
came of the opposition of the Member for Oxford, and that of
the Member for Kent, who now set themselves forward as the
champions of the Church Establishment in this country, yet
whose grounds of opposition were diametrically opposite to
those of their associates? The latter would decide equally
against the Church Establishment in England, rgainst the
Church Establishment in Ireland, and against the Church
Establishment of Scotland; and if an appeal were to be made,
it should be made on those grounds alone. Their language
had been, "We conscientiously object to the endowment of
any religious institution whatsoever," and the persons who had
stated this so emphatically were not an isolated or particular
body, an exception to the great majority, but the selec'ed minis-
ters of the entire dissenting body of the country. But there
were reasons, and cogent unanswerable reasons for the endow-
relent of the College of Maynooth. First, it had been sanc-
tioned by the Irish Parliament; secondly, it had been sanc-
tioned by the English Parliament for a period of forty-five
years ; and, thirdly, the great body of the Catholics of Ireland
were keenly alive to the fact, that it was by English force, by
English violence, and by English bayonets that they had I;sen
deprived of the endowments of their Church. Let those en-
dowments be restored and then might the present paltry
pittance be withheld, but if those endowments were
still kept, and kept for Protestant purposes, the Irish Catholics
had a right to claim from the Parliament of England an equi-
valent. If a body were deprived of an indefeasible right by
force, was it not natural that that injured body should seek re-
stitution or redress? and yet the Irish Roman Catholics had
never, be it remembered, come and asked for the grant. Yet
when acceded, he felt confident that it would be accepted
by the great body of the hierarchy and clergy of
Ireland as an honest and just concession. Accepted
in a spirit of peace, aye, even of thankfulness, and
thankfulness more than was commensurate with the amount.
If all religions were to be cast upon their own resources, as in
the case of the Dissenters, then let the Irish Catholics at least
have that property returned to them. No similar claim could be
made out on behalf of the Dissenters of England. They had
never been deprived of their rightful endowments, nor robbed
of their first possessions. And to think the former would be
satisfied without redress, was to suppose an impossibility. The
Irish character was not different from the English. Let them
suppose that the contemplated expedition of Napoleon upon
England had succeeded—that he had overrun, ravaged,
vanquished the country, then spoliated the Church, and
handed it over to his soldiery or citizens, how
would the English have acted then ? Oh, they would have
acted like men, and would have cried " restitution i 3 due, and
sooner or later it must be made." Such had been the Irish
feeling, such their conduct, such their first avowal. The se-
cond objection to the measure was, however, on religious
grounds, but in a country like this, professing different
religions, and greatly divided in itself, it was hardly becoming
to raise such an intolerant and anomalous outcry. In England
they had established the religion of the majority of the people ;
in Scotland they had established the religion of the majority of
the people ; in Ireland they had established the religion
of the mincrity of the people. Was that not an insult,
a marked, a gratuitous insult ? and was it not natural that dis-
content and acerbity, and animosity, should be the feelings of a
people so unjustly treated ? A statement had been put forth,
which he did not believe, that the majority of the English
people were opposed to the grant, but those that did resist it on
religious grounds had clamoured loudly and unworthily of
" Catholicism" and " Jesuitism." Let it be remembered that
it was the Jesuit who had first spread the doctrines of Chris-
tianity, who, daring the terrors of climate and of barbarism,
had traversed the most repulsive regions, and taught
the pure doctrines of his religion to the heathen.
And, as to Catholicism, it was the religion of the
ancestors of every Member of that House : it was
the religion of those who had fought for and obtained
that source of their liberties and their rights—Magna Charter.
Did they forget what they owed the Catholic ? It was he that
had achieved the victories of Cressy, Poictiers, and Agincourt;
it was he that had founded the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge ; it was he that had created that glorious temple
whose walls approximated their own. He made these remarks
not to bring on polemical discussion, but because he had been
provoked to it, and he should have felt himself unworthy of his
seat in that House had he not protested against the language of
the opponents of the measure towards the Catholic religion gene-
rally. He considered that no Protestant in that House would
object to subscribe to all the essential doctrines of faith to which
the Catholic gave his assent. Every one of those doctrines was
maintained by some of the divines of the Established Church,
and the religious opinions that were particularly ascribed to
the Roman Catholics might be found especially insisted on in
the Book of Common Prayer. As to mere matters of form and
ceremonial, the two parties might differ; but what had these
distinctions to do with religion ? Nothing whatever, and this
opinion he was prepared to maintain in the presence of divines
belonging to both churches. It was the result of biassed opi-
nions and most unfounded prejudices, that prevented
this opinion from being universally entertained. He be-
lieved, as an honest mar,, that in essentials there was little
or no difference between their doctrines. It was true that if
Dissenting Ministers, and others ignorant of real facts, were
asked to give a description of the Roman Catholic religion,
they would tell you that it was a most monstrous and fright-
, ful doctrine, filled with superstitious errors and every abomi •
nation ; but they had obtained their knowledge of the religion
from their nursery-maids, and had retailed it, highly exagge-
rated, to their associates as the truth. The publication of
these foolish notions had done more to shake the attachment
of the Irish people to the Government of the land than all the
contumely and persecution that had been heaped on them for
centuries past. He believed the wrong ideas entertained of
the Catholic religion constituted a most mischievous and dan-
gerous condition ; and he would implore Hon. Gentlemen to
consider whether they would array themselves or not against the
best interests and peace of the country. The proposed grant
to Maynooth was not to be considered merely as a gift of so
much money, but it ought to be taken as the expression of a
kindly feeling towards the Irish people ; and it would tend to
assure them that whatever had been done in bygone times,
the Government were now willing to atone for the mistakes
which had been formerly committed. He would request Hon.
Members not to regard this grant in the light of a religious
discussion. From many years' anxious consideration he would
fearlessly assert, that the differences which had divided the re-
ligions of England and Ireland were of such small moment,
that, from their trivial nature, they could not much longer
exist. The House differed as to the subject of the grant to
Maynooth, but he would beseech it to be unanimous in giving
this satisfaction to the people of Ireland, so that they might
see that the large majority of Englishmen were disposed to act
kindly towards them. The proposed measure would give greater
satisfaction to Ireland than any scheme that had ever been
Contrived. The hopes of the people had been raised to the
highest pitch of excitement in the expectation of receiving the
boon, and he trusted from the bottom of his heart that the
value of the gift might not be diminished by its being awarded
by a small and unwilling majority.
Mr. LAWSON said he considered that matters of a reli-
gious tendency ought not to be discussed in that House. Hav-
ing briefly stated this opinion he would proceed to offer a few
observations on what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet with
regard to what he considered the restoration of property to the
Roman Catholics. This refunding would meet with his most
decided opposition, and he had voted against it on the Appro-
priation Clause. He considered the Church of Ireland as an
integral portion of the Church of England—of course he al-
luded to the Protestant Church of Ireland—and the two
churches were united. On these grounds, and not from any
hostile motives, he was resolved to oppose the giving of church
property to the Catholics. He would now proceed to the con-
sideration of the Bill for the endowment of Maynooth. -He had
all along voted against the bestowing of the small amount hi-
therto given to the college, but he should experience great sa-
tisfaction in supporting the measure for bestowing a
larger grant for the purposes of education. He had
on a former occasion voted in favour of the education
Bill because he considered that, under the peculiar position
in which the country stood, some improved means for preventing
the spread of ignorance and superstition was very much
needed. He would not object to give the pi oposed grant to
Maynooth, or a larger sum, if it was necessary; but he could
not perceive how the bestowal of a greater amount could re-
solve his objections to the purposes to which it would be de-
voted. He would now refer to what the Honourable Baronet
had stated with respect to the alliance between Dissenters and
the Church. It was true he had presented petitions from
Dissenters ; and he considered that the general feeling of his
constituents was decidedly opposed to the grant. In case the
Maynooth Bill were passed he would prefer that scholarships
should be founded, so that there might be a fair field opened for
genius, and no difference in religious belief should
prevent a young man from earning the reward
of learning. He would say, let truth prevail,
and there was nothing unfair in that view of the case. It ap-
peared to him that if superstitious doctrines were to be
preached, let there be a corresponding facility opened for re-
butting them in fair argument, and he was persuaded that no
man who was anxious for truth could object to this course. It
had been stated that the popular feeling was not against this
Bill; he would, however, believe that the feeling throughout
the country was strongly opposed to the grant, and many of
the arguments brought forward in its support were in direct
contradiction one to the other.
The Hon. H. CHOLMONDELEY considered that the
measure would be attended with some risk, but the danger to
be apprehended was not so urgent or so great, as to hinder the
expectation that great good would result. For this reason he
was determined to give his support to the third reading of the
Bill. He would give his vote, not for the purpose of swelling
the majority, or supporting the Government, but from the pure
conviction that no harm would result, and that it would greatly
benefit the Irish people. He had listened attentively to the
arguments that had been urged for and against the measure,
but he had heard nothing that could tend to shake
his original opinion on the subject. He was not
one of those who were inclined to under-estimate
either the Protestant or the Catholic religion. He was by
birth and education a Protestant, but he was not, for that
reason, inclined to oppose the claims of the Catholic, and
neither did he think that by supporting the measure he would
tend in any degree to promote the Roman Catholic religion.
He considered that, by supporting this measure, he was doing
no more than an act of justice to Ireland. It was not theof
speeches of the public orators—it was not the declamation
Mr. O'Connell. He did not believe that the proceed-
ings in the Conciliation Hall had anything to do with
the measure.—(Cries of ". Hear, hear.") He did not think
that any grant should be made to the claims of agitation.ih
The Government had not acted on this subject simply with
a a
view to popularity. They had acted with a view to conci-
liate the people of Ireland, and he did not think that the
grant would in any way tend to promote the interests of the
Catholic Church, otherwise than by elevating the priests of
that Church in the social scale. As the Hen. Member
Newark had stated in one of
of
eearliest speechesointhbiesrfor
sub-
ject, the religious portion
do fn_e Hear, hear.) They had
subject tight to be left
altogether out of the question.—(
nothing whatever to with the doctrines of that Church.
That House was in his opinion one of the very last places in
the world in which a religious discussion ought to arise. They
could not now look upon this as a religious question at all.
The question was simply this. How were Hon. Members to
look upon the state of the country and to consider the claims
of Maynooth? They had two ways, either to disregard the claims
of that college, and, defectitie as that establishment was, leave
it to pursue its own course, or they were, on the other hand,
to increase the grant, and endeavour to amend it. There was,
indeed, another course, and that was to discontinue the grant
altogether. With any man who would counsel the discon-
tinuance of the grant he could not speak—he was compelled
to join issue with him, But what would be the consequence ,of

• -

----n
- - ---- -- --
the discontinuance of the grant? They would not do away , Irish people, the Roman Catholic religion
eh"
ald be cllerishe
•
with the College-they would not, in any way, impede the and supported-not tolerated.")-( Hear, heat )He (Mr.
ordination of the Roman Catholic priests, but they would take Gaskell) had the greatest respect for thoseo opposed this
wE
the College from under the control of Government, and de- measure ; but he was astonished how Ho
„urable Mena-
price it of that wholesome regulation which this grant cm- ' hers who supported the measure for the et nailer sum,
powered the Government, if they chose it, to impose. The ' could oppose the present measure, and still retain .their seats.
question, therefore, in his mind, resolved itself into this-were -( Hear. hear. ) This was a Bill which did not
Ca- "fain any
man, or
they, end how were they, to amend it ? lie was quite pre- proposition that did violence to the conscience of an
pared to amend it in the way proposed by the Government, deprived the Established Church of any of its existit I; Pritie
and by an increased grant to the College of Maynooth to give I loges or immunities.-( Hear, hear.) On these groi. Aids he
a better education to the students, and a higher position in would support the Government measure, and he. trust 'ed it
the social scale to the Roman Catholic priesthood. He believed , would be carried by a large majority of that Hollse.-(the ‘h.PO
this to be an excellent-a conciliatory measure for Ireland. It Mr. BELLEW rose, as a Catholic Member, to express Ira '
was some repayment for the long arrear of injustice which opinioe upon the Church question. Hr thought spoliation' le
she had endured' from this country. Hon. Gentlemen should ' took place at the time of the Reformation ; but he thought '
recollect that this was not now an exclusively Protestant Par- that it would be equal spoliation to take the property from the
liament, and that they must legislate as if they had something Catholics now. He was, however, of opinion that in a very
to do with the social condition of the great portion of the Irish l few years a very different opinion would be held in Ireland.
people. He would take the liberty to read an expression of He thought this measure, therefore, was a very politic one.
that late great philosopher and philanthropist, Dr. Arnold. and he was convinced that it would be duly appreciated
That great man had said, that " let the difference between by the people of Ireland, as it would lead them
Christian and anti. Christian be as wide as it will, but let the to believe their religion was cared for by the State.
difference between Christian and Christian sink into nothin,g." l Whatever the religion of a people might be, Mahomedan or
-( Cheers.) They hat! also to consider the arguments against Jewish, so long as they behaved loyally and peaceably, they had
the rejection of the measure on the other side. If a right to be dealt with in the same manner as the members of
this measure warerrejected, not only would the vote turn out the Established Church. After all that was said of crime icy
the present Ministry, but also every Ministry that should sue,- Ireland it was not so prevalent as in England, and the way to
teed it, which was not pledged to the grant to Maynooth. ! diminish it still more, and to restore permanent tranquillity,.
They would lay a palsying hand on the trade and commerce of was by introducing measures of a humane and conciliatory na-•
Ireland-they would prevent the influx of capital-they would . tore like the present, which, after all the obloquy it had en--
prevent the formation of railroads, those great means of civili- , countered, would, he felt confident, be considered as a most ac-
zation and improvement. The feelings of the Irish people ' ceptable boon by the great body of the people of Ireland.
would be estranged, and their confidence in the good will of When the Hon. Member sat dean there were loud cries of
this country would be lost. But the granting of this measure j " Divide," and for at least a minute no Hon. Member rose.
would have a double effect, it would be a blessing to those who Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and they were about
gave and to those who received its benefits-the country which doing so-many had actually left thealleries:, and there was a
bestowed, and the country on whom the gift was bestowed',. rush of Members to the bar, when-
g
would be alike sharers in the advantages. As he had before I Sir R. INGLIS rose amid loud and renewed cries of
asserted, it would not add one Roman Catholic to the ranks of " Divide." When the tumult ceased, the Hon. Baronet pro-
that church. Conversions were not to be made without but . seeded to say that, in the course of a hundred hours' debate, nose
within the Church, and he, as a Protestant opposed to the ! a single point had remained undiscussed ; and having already,
doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, felt bound to assert experienced the indulgence of the House, he would not -again
that such would be the case. This grant would do no injury have trespassed upon it, did he not think, when the cry for a
to the Protestant religion in Ireland. All the instances they division arose, that it would be unbecoming in him, having
had heard of came from within the Church. Luther was a taken so strong a part from the beginning, to allow a final
Catholic when he began the reformation.-( Cheers. ) Be- 4 decision to be corne to without endeavouring, for the last time,
lieving, therefore, that this measure would be a healing mea- to recal the attention of the House to some of the views, not,
sure, and that it was calculated to be of service to the ptehaps, new views, but some to which their attention had
country, he should give his earnest support to the measure. I been' already directed. It was no longer contended, as in the
Mr. FFOLLIOT I' said that as he had voted against the early part of the debate, that they were bound by compact to
smaller sum he had no difficulty in voting against the larger mainnein or increase the grant to Maynooth. After the de-
grant. He should oppose it, because he believed that it was claratiore of his Right Hon. Friend at the commence-
opposed to the feelings of the great body of the Protestants in ment of this discussion, which gave, as an alternative, that
Ireland, and calculated to do an injury to the Protestant they should abandon the education of the Roman Catholic
Church. He had himself, only the other evening, presented a clergy altogether, it would be no longer contended that they
petition from the county of 1 yrone, which. was signed, he were bound by compact. But by whatever they were ;,bound
believed, by more persons than all the signatures represented -by charity, as the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
which were attached to the petitions in favour of the 1 State for the Home Department said, or by fear, as the Hon.
grant. The letter which he had received for the presentation : Member fee Marylebone stated, or by sympathy with the eeli-
of that petition spoke, Le believed, the sentiments of the Pro- gloms feelings of the majority of the Irish people, as other Hon.
testant inhabitants of Ireland, and it strongly repudiated any Members had insinuated-it was quite clear that they w are
adoption of the principle which this grant included. It was under no moral obligation to educate the Cathohic
well known that the College of Mayneuth had been under the priesthood. Looking upon the measure either in the light tlf
I
management of the Jesuits. That it was so in the year 1816, I policy, justice, or expediency, he could not change the opinion's
but if it could be proved to him that an alteration had been' which he had already expressed-that it would alienate the
made since that time he should not have had such an ob;ectien Protestant mind, and would totally fail to conciliate the Roman
to the vote. If it could be proved to him that the students had I Catholics of Ireland. lie had been told that he had no right
been led to appreciate the sacredness of an oath, he should feel to Assume that the majority of the Protestants of the empiee
less reluctance than he now entertained against the vote, but were opposed to this measure, and that its opponents chiefly'
he could not feel this, and he should therefore support the c :mierised Dissenters, and a few members of the
amendment of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire. Established Church. He was further assured that it
Sir D. NORREYS said that he certainly should support would be acceptable to the Irish Roman Catholic people, but
the third reading. The Ministry heel done what they thought it did not seem as if their leaders had been concinated by it,
right, and it was at least in bad taste to rake up, as tke last though. pel'haPst the Hon. Members for Dundalk, Dungarvon,
speaker had done, all the exuvim of noisome reports and and Waterftnrd might approve of it.-( Hear, hear.)
slanders. They had now sown the seed, and they would soon He repeated his belief that the great mass of
reap the harvest. They proposed to insure this grant on the the Protestant people were directly opposed to the measure,
same security as the Civil List, the public establishments of and that it was far from conciliating any measurable
the country, the army and the navy, rested, and the country proposition of the Catholics of Ireland, who, :nstead of re-
would be grateful to them for the way in which the grant had ceiving it as a boon, would reject it as an insult.--(Hear.)
been made. They had passed a great gulf, and he trusted they They talked of sectarian ,'tifferences, but had not this Bill set
would proceed to a happy termination. creed against creed ?-(rear.) Whose fault was that?-
Mr. GODSON said that he should trouble the House with a ( Hear, hear.) It had raised the Protestant feeling of the
very few words in explanation of the vote he intended to give country, and they would in wain attempt to Lay it. It had
on the present occasion, and he did this partly because his kindled the flame which smoukhered, and which would break
opinion might not coincide with many of those who had re- out with a degree of intensity, so. lira no man conld calculate
turned him as their representative to Parliament. And first, upon its violence or its ravages. In had been said Oat there
it became his duty to see what were the benefits which this were nut such large assemblies of the clergy of the Church of
measure would confer upon the Roman Catholics England, acting in corporate bodies, as at the time Of the
of Ireland, and in making this inquiry, he would Emancipation Bill, but there was
,hardly a partachial
not regard the present as a solitary measure, for he petition among the numbers he had presented, which
trusted it was not to stand alone, the only monument of the was not signed by the rector of the Garish.-( Hear., )
Government's desire to do justice to the sister country. Ile He had been told that they should not unite with their DIA.
hoped that the Irish people would enjoy that peace which re- tenting brethren, but he never felt ashamed of the mere term
suited from a conviction that they had been justly dealt with. Protestant-( Hear, hear)-nor sought to escape from that..dis-
He (Mr. Godson) had had considerable experience of the ! tinction. The Hon. Baronet then went en to explain the
Church establishment in the colonies, for he had been inti- nature of Prosestantism,which was not, he said, a mere bundles, f
mately acquainted for many years with the Island of Jamaica, negatives, but a distinct and definite idea-a creed for which
and he should, with the permission of the House, draw men had spilt their blood three centuries ago. He had been.
Honourahle Members' attention to the sums of money which accused by Hon. Members opposite as setting himself up as are
had been sent to the different religious denominations there, oracle of truth-he had not done so, but what he declared was,.
and particularly to the amounts granted for the support of the that he would nut teach to a stranger what he believed to be
Roman Catholics. There was an annual amount sent every false, no mole than he would teach it to his own child, and he
year to the,lsland of Jamaica of 28,510/. This appeared to be the hoped the same feelings existed in the breast of every
case by a return for the year 1839, which had been laid on the Hon wrable Member in that House.-( Hear, hear.)
table of that House. They would find that out of 168,2421. It would puzzle them to make any distinction in the matter.
granted altogether for ecclesiastical purposes, the Roman Ca- He had never used strong language in that House inconskste
tholic priesthood had had no less than 14,763/. Why, then, emit with the personal respect due to the Gentlemen who ad-
he asked, should the colonies have a greater measure of justice dressed the House. He, for one, would not compromise the
than that accorded to Ireland ? He trusted that this measure great truths in which he had been brought up ; and he would
was an indication of better things-that they would soon see say, that if the Protestant truth-if the religion of the Church
the priesthood of the Roman Catholics made independent of the of England was in accordance with the law of God and the
people to whom they ministered, and that as the blessings of Gospel, then must the other system which the measure pro-
education were extended, a more united and friendly feeling posed to endow, be a system of error. How any man could
would spring up between that country and this. He trusted support a system that went to justify the propagation of error',
that the period was not distant when the Parliament would be he could not see. tie was sure it could never be reconciled
considered a Legislature not inimical to their interests, but to conscience or common sense. lie, at all events, would
willing to do them that justice which had so long been refused never publicly or privately support what he could not be-
to them.
lieve. Tile Church of England was not one of many sects,
Colonel RAWDON, on the part of the Roman Catholics but the religion of the people and the State.-(.Hear.)
of Ireland, gave his hearty concurrence to the measure brought It was, therefore, entitled to the highest privilege, and ought
forward by the Right Hon. Baronet. He looked on it as not to be placed in comparison with other setts, but had a
opening a better prospect for the Irish people, as the beginning I right to demand maintenance and support from tlhe State. He
of a better state of things. Why, if they did not do that could net conceal from himself the fact, that his Bight Hon.
justice which was certainly due to Ireland, it would be better I Friend at the head of the Government had occupiad the most
o discont: The -- -

important position, during the last twenty years, data y public
man they ever had in the country. Every good or e?il mea-
sure during the last quarter of a century had, either wholly or
in part, originated with him, with the exception of the 11,eform
Bill. There was no measure originated or brought to a .con-
elusion during that time, but what, in their merits or demer.i!se
were due to him more than to any other man. He might rei,,r
to the changes in the criminal law of England, the ecelesiatiti• •
cal law of England, Church reform, the poor-law.—(Losi
cries of " 1-I.lr, hear," and " Divide, divide.") The Whir
Government could not carry forward their measures without-
the assistance of his Right Hon. Friend. The union of the
Canada', and the formation of the Municipal Corporations,
were both indebted to his helping hand. He would warn his
Right Hon. Friend against the course he was at present pur-
suing as fatal to the nest. interests of the country. No one
could be ignorant of the great degree of respect and considera-
tion which was at present bestowed on the Roman Catholic re-
ligion, whenever her Majesty's Government.—( Cries of " Ox-
ford.") He would leave the differences at Oxford to be
settled by the convocation. lie had thought that when the
Catholic Emancipation Bill was carried in 1829, the require -
ments of the Roman Catholics had been conceded and'
satisfied ; but it new appeared that a measure
was to be introduced which, he believed, would go
far to repeal that Act, while it would legalise thw
introduction, and administer to the succession of all tlav
scholastic institutions founded on adverse principles. That
Bill had been three months lying on the table of the House,
and no attention had yet been drawn to its anomalous and per-
nicious character. 'Was he not, therefore, justified in saying
that a line of conduct tending to discourage the Protestant,
and encourage the Roman Catholic Church, was manifested
by the Governments which, for the last sixteer. or twenty
years, had held sway in England? If they looked abroad, the
same spirit was apparent in the course of the Administration
towards its colonial institutions. In 1797, a considerable grant
of land was made in Canada for the foundation of the Protes-
tant Establishment there. A short time ago, the Government
abroad, acting under the instructions of the Home Administra-
tion, had brought in a Bill to take away that great property,
and by a majority of eleven it had been agreed to transfer it
front a Protestant University to one where no religious in-
struction whatever was to be admitted. Looking, therefore, at
the systematic discouragement given to the Church of England
and the systematic encouragement to the Church of Rome,
and regarding the present measure but as the prelude and
precursor of the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church,
he should still, in this, its last stage, offer it his uncompromising
opposition.
Colonel VERNER, amidst loud cries of " Divide," moved
an adjournment of the debate, on which the House divided,
when there appeared--
For the adjournment ..
Against it
Majority against the adjournment .• ---74
On our admission to the gallery we found
Mr. Wi SE on his legs, arguing in favour of the adjourn-
ment of the debate, in consequence of the number of Irish
Members who had not yet spoken on the subject.
Colonel VERNER had moved the adjournment as several
Hon. Members had gone away, under the impression that the
debate should be continued for another evening.
After a few words from Mr. VILLIERS STEWART and Mr.
HOME,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that, in his opinion, the de-
bate should go on, until no one could wish for any further ad-
journment.—(Laughter.) He thought such a course would
disarm all opposition, especially as all the argument was on one
side.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had no desire to postpone
the adjournment, although he thought it rather hard upon
those whose duty it was to sit out the whole of
the debate.—(Laughter.) He was anxious to allow every
convenience to Hon. Members, and, as he understood that se.
veral Irish Members wished yet to speak on the question, he
should not oppose the further adjournment.
The debate was then adjourned.
Bill was read a second time.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
On the motion of Mr. GROGAN, the Coroners (Ireland)
House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.
- - - -
The remains of Admiral Sir Philip Charles
Calslerwood Durham, which arrived in the Hecate from Malta, at.
Southampton on Thursday, were removed in the Comet, which
sailed for Leith on Friday, to be conveyed for interment at Large,
in Fifeshire. The men.of.war in the harbour saluted the body
when it was landed at the Clarence Yard.
ACCIDENT TO THE HON. P. S. PiEßaitroiNT.
We have much pleasure in stating that the Hon. P. S. Pierre-
point, who had a severe fall from his horse in Piccadilly, en
the Ist instant, by which his ancle was seriously hurt, is re-
covering as satisfactorily as the nature of the injury will
admit.
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_Antic the connexion between the two portions of the
empire—it would be better, he repeated, to dissever that con-
nexion, than to maintain a disregard of the feelings of a very
large and important portion of the empire. He believed, that
notwithstanding the great number of petitions which had been
obtained against the Bill, the generous feelings
of the English people were in favour of a
measure which manifested a disposition on the
part of the English Government to render some justice to an
injured country. He knew very well all the uses that might
be made of the debate, but that would not prevent him from
persisting in his support to the Bill.
Mr. SHAW denied, in the first place, that there was any
similarity between the present proposition and the Act of
1795, which gave a temporary and conditional endow-
ment to the college of Maynooth. But the Go-
vernment were not satisfied now with the tolerance
of the Romish Church, but they were going to endow it, and
to make it permanently a part of the State. The Right lion.
Baronet treated this as the foundation of a new system. He
should like to know what they were to understand from the
words of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern-
ment two years ago. He then adopted a different policy
and a different tone towards Ireland. He had now
changed his opinions, and was adopting a different
policy towards that country. The Roman Catholics inferred
from the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, that they were not to be
content with civil rights, but were to have religious equality
with the members of the Established Church. Thus strife,
excitement, and animosity, of a far more important character
than that which existed during the period when the old poli-
tical Catholic question disturbed that country, would be engen-
dered. God help the people of that country, for, indeed, they
had but little to expect from such a course of policy.—( Cheers)
Instead of men of different political feelings co-operating to-
gether for the promotion of national improvements, and for the
promotion of their common interests, it would seem as if they
were again to be driven into religious disputations and party
conflict—that days of peace and rest should never be permitted
to the people of Ireland, and that dissension, discord, and con-
tention of a lasting kind would be introduced. He regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
had made the announcement " that Ireland was
to be his difficulty." This was a sure way to make
it so. Such predictions had a tendency to their
own fulfilment. He sincerely believed that much of the
vexation and annoyance of the " monster meetings" and
"State prosecutions" in Ireland, had beer, induced by that
declaration.—(Cries of " Oh," and " No.") He would not go
into them, but he was prepared to say, for his own part, that
in the treatment of the monster meetings at first, or in the
State prosecutions after, he did not think the policy pursued
was injudicious.—( Hear, hear.) He was ready to affirm that
when the Right Hon. Baronet assumed office there was not
amongst all his political supporters a section more anxious to
co-operate with him in adopting a conciliatory policy toward
Ireland than his Irish supporters.—( Hear, hear.) To the last
hour of his life he should entertain feelings of affectionate
regard towards the Right Hon. Baronet. He had always been
the friend of civil equality both to his Roman Catholic brethren
and his Protestant associates.—( Hear, hear.) He had not
the honour of sitting in that House in 1829, but his father had
been turned out for giving a vote in favour of the Catholics.
The Dart he had taken with respect to the Municipal Corpo-
ration Bill had lost him the dearest and best friend of his life.
—( Hear, hear.) He was glad to see his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary for Ireland in his place, because it gave him the
opportunity of telling him that when he went to that country
he would find himself in no better a position than a clerk to
the Home-office.—( Hear, hear.) He could not but think, as
an Irishman, that the appointment of Englishmen to the office
of Lord Chancellor of Ireland was greatly to be deplored.
With regard to professional appointments, he did not wish to
bring any names before the House, but at the same time he
would say that in professional appointments they had been
rather chosen by the considerati.n of an inferior policy, than
by a regard to the character or the honour of the professions
themselves, or the wishes of the Irish people. The Right Hon.
Baronet, in enumerating the appointments which were made,
spoke of a gentleman appointed to a minor office ; he (Mr. S. )
would not mention the name; but while that gentleman re-
mained in that office, he was still some proof of the principle
which he had just spoken of. The Protestants of Ireland were
not so easily to be frightened as the Right Hon. Baronet ima-
gined, and that he would yet find out. He would warn the
Government that if they lost the support of the Irish Protest-
ants, they would introduce a spirit of discontent,
ewithout
creating a good feeling among the people. Lord Plunkt _ him-
self,
_
thats e lfif that ,
House
afriendatttoemthpd to toucheteßoman theCatho plicsr,epehardtydeecflatrhede
Protestant Church in Ireland, they would soon e the ties
un
he
ion Ireland
Tefrewas o
at re
facten upon , and
whsiecvh hera_
severance
beggede h
of the two
s
of the
countries.
the
G Honourableiy Government
eFriendtt
eh e Firstreflect—namely,
fi e
e tLord e
e o
yf the
that Treasurytheover-
whelming
and
majority of
for t the
Membersinfluenced by
that House, who voted
ha honourable
t measure, i
were
re
threetiedsetaaetht Eat
sttheibiiiishmmeasenut...4
measure was
Hear.) Let
those G
to doinjuernyten
tolemthe
Protestant
who professed a regard for the Established Church of England
know that if they destroyed the Irish branch, the English branch
must follow. They may not think so now, but they would find
it out if the experiment were tried. He would give them one
more warning in conclusion, that if they severed the Irish Es-
tablishment from the State, or created a junction between vo-
luntaries and latitudinarians, they would decrease the happi-
ness, greatness, and prosperity of this country.
Mr. GASKELL said that he had sat in that House since
the passing of the Reform Bill, and he thought, having sat so
long, it was incumbent on him to support that Government
which he had always so cordially assisted. He opposed the
policy of Lord Melbourne, because he believed that the ten-
dency of it was to increase the democratic influence in Ireland,
and that it added to the power of the repeal movement; but
his belief was that the tendency of the measure now before
the House was precisely opposite. His support of the
Bill did not rest on any compact either expressed or im-
plied by the Legislature at the time of the union. He believed
that there was such a compact, and that it was binding ; but
his vote was not founded upon it, because he was ready to sup-
port the measure in the absence of any compact on the part of
the Government. He would only trouble the House with one
word more. He would just call attention to the words of the
Attorney-General for Ireland, when Mr. Burke was connected
with the Government of that country. (The Hon. Member
then read a few sentences from a paper he held in his hand,
which were to the effect that the sentiments of the legal autho-
rity whom be quoted were, that, " in order to conciliate the