The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-12 00:00:00

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sira
vPedenttli'oe question
Ile was about to bring under the eon-
% ,f the House that evening ; and strong
.as
*ere Lis
tiOrl reSpi'eti!ig it-deep as was his eollVW-
raischie4,l aoY delay in dealing- with it would only add
fret, to past procastination--he should shrink
~, ',task (if again calline• the attention of the house
to
1,4; soafteeet so largely and ably discussed at the begin-
IsPe, hot•lie present session, if he saw anything like a
aerninei
.Never distant and faint, that her Majesty's Go-
whicli were prepared to entertain the principle upon
dep,lolile settlement of the question must ultimately
.
that (Cheers.) He did not for a moment suppose
dual
efts question would or could be advancel by indivi-
jediees 9,_rt, or that the inveterate feelings or strong pre-
three lvotild call them, which had plunged them for
ndred years into a course of vicious legislation.
ta'ri hieh still retained such a hold on the minds of
Nit3;pe lr''''l(l he removed by individual effort. On the
this whenever the time for dealing practically with
the ;I,l,ilestiun arrived, it would require the best efforts of
Incrl of both sides to remove the obstacles which
in the way of a settlement. Mueli forbearance,
belfe,e:, 'nlill' concession, would be required ; and he
Alott
" th.t men on all sides must follow the opi-
tile Ito! tilshop Watson, who, in the debate on
Rapti said that " the:), must barn give up
cora, a H;l4s to seenre great things, as tranquillity, con-
tleestto int Peace."—_(bear, hear.) He admitted the
tease, n was difficult and complicated, but that was no
et„h,liwl7 it should nut be entertained.—([Tear. hear.)
bltipetione ) teaneipation was difficult, yet Catholic Eman-
w,R carried, Nay, the moe difficult and c.ont-
petopi, tne question was, the moresndispeesible did it
befo-re.that the House should entertain and promote it
tteela hit was forced on it by events over which they
Nutt ,e no control—the more incumbent it was to
ke4 t those difficulties and unravel that complication,
I:olP.,lee, if possible, the Irish Church upon. a, foot:
the ecinsislent with its (lan professed objects, and
this fe,..t interests it was intended to promote. With
the%lng, if he saw anything like a progressive policy
meter 1431 of the MinistersLanything like an honest
ties
litn,!.flation or desire to grapple with the real difficul-
tem Inell the Government of this country had to con-
kr. Pth -- to regard Catholic Emancipation as
Feat regarded it. as the first ofa
Of Ir series of measures for the amelioration
aPirit"nd, framed on a large and comprehensive
Polies,and Carried out with a vig,rous band—such a
llitps'eiras that would have no warmer supporter than
Nem'
° c.fte atlopte,l on this paint the words of an Ho.
rate, his, w i
hom he was sorry not to see then n his
esatwilli whom he often concurred in opinion, though
top wen the other side of the House—the Hon. Member
visaeYnlouth—who said, on the first debate, " that his
at t• he as to see his Right Honourable Friend
hitati Head of the Government announce his in-
.r°oteS;ant altering the anomalous position of the
Churel in Ireland, while he maintained
upon which a Church Establishment
°trent:9 be maintained in any country for the purposes
look but giving up the doctrine that it was to be
Ptti
)1.1 _ s a
134 thus Protestant stronghold." He (Mr. Ward)
retleraat prine.ple altogether', but he would ask any
least on either side of the Hence whether the
''ettrp,3enlion was indicated by Honourable and
hies Gentlemen, either by word or deed,
that pulletild warrant him in entertaining the belief
kept. e,h are the sentiments of her Majesty's Govern-
ir„l'Vas there any good legislation at all in prospect
Ntt -I;anti Had the Government announced any
ti rtikseiNsa,nge in their policy, any change that might
ante be expected—had any one thing been said
calculated to remove or to allay the just cause of
to Intent,„, the iust cause of excitement which prevailed
14' t-1111, and thus bringing back the alienated feelings
".„ (be4,„PeePle of that country to England and this House.
mele're hear.) The only measure commenced was
tlet• pa''sa Registration Bill, which the Right Hon. Gen-
gad, p-4„) the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
tapc-,nellliced his intention of proceeding with on the
tite-faut'l,‘7 if the state of public business admitted it.
--eet' ft; believed, was, that the Bill had been every-
m ,heref,eceived ith such an universality of condemna-
theV would never hear of it again. There was
'`ordBo t2oef, they
the Right Hon. Baronet..the First
41:Nee the Treasury alluded to at the beginning of the
e dia' for further endowment of the Catholic clergy.
of ia,-; not know whether that was included in the list
arese-"aures to be introduced by the Government in the
aliit session. But there was, in truth, no legislation
Nth, fur Ireland since this time twelvemonths, and if,
theill from their works to their words, they looked at
toteCleelarationa as a criterion of what their future
)thehtle,t,was to be, he found that there never was a time
law 'flare was so little of what was good expected,
4_llleyßei, much of what was bad anticipated.—(Hear.)
l'aae"ati not only taken up a position which was mi-
l), le, but the lad ledged themselves to maintain it.
et*, ellvtst ehad bad YR. series of declarations within the last
months, from almost every member of the Ml-
' 4"ke it? °lrensive to Ireland, discouraging to those who,
pari:nself, wished it well without any direct reference
Irlep r„.l objects, and destroying ail hope of good to arise
IttiNt :.'en who had been tying their own hands upon the
oeforntil'ortant questions which could possibly be brought
or 4.9lein. His Noble Friend the Secretary of State
saevedonies had declared that he could see no differ-
.7444-Let:veil a Protestant Establishment and a Pro-
llat•ele i•xlvereien ; that in 1629, when Catholic Erean-
'thiehl-g was carried, there was an implied agreement,
eaty it be a °Toss breach of faith in those who
11413:4 thatmeasuret'to depart from. Now he really had
tian aware that the present Government was composed
111 of those who carried Catholic Emancipation.—
alal' hear.) If the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
,otieent had been told, at that period, that. he
t. 404.5,, find himself in a Government of which the
114 h-artlet (Sir R. Peel) was a member, he would
„"olte
..leen much surprised at such a declaration.
.Suc ,
"lie?", was the first declaration illustrating the inten-
t2etatltda,etbe Government. In the next place, an Hon.
;11, whose opinions on Irish affairs were entitled
thee-leerable weight—and they derived more weight
frees \v from his recent appointment as Secretary to the
• s-ellrY---had declared that the Church was a line
ate -aration between parties ; that no Conserva-
' !If :ta,tesman could, without dishonour to him-
,',lllrat-in't ruin to his party, make any other de-
" 4111is-tni than that be was determined to do all
11,1t11,- I)?wer to maintain inviolate and intact the dignity
i l'• tiltitinn of the Established Church. Then came the
""n. Baronet, the Home Secretary, who, while he
..it, 7of Ireland as the fatal field which had separated
meet om his former friends, who he could never hope to
lapst
again, except as opponents, in answer to many
?lob! moderate and rational suggestions made by his
ji:e.Priend the Member for the city of London, said.
titlie'lcet all these ; they are all incompatible
, that
nostrums
- e at Preference which the Protestant State of L.
.g
tt fundamental principle, has decided on givinF.
be et NtA
—(164 of the Protestant Establishment." " I sand,
the added trien the choice made by this country
s; Refoirmation —confirmed at the Revolution
.11 teCed, by the Act of Settlement—and ratified
1714er- ''et of Union. I hold that preference to be
eoe it '3st the firmest foundations of our liberty ; I be-
d° nto be the work of the greatest statesmen, and I
keitiqt believe it will be overthrown by any Repeal As•
th,ie,4.”—(Hear hear.) Now, the Right Hon. Baronet
mer-",;',ad of herc Majesty's Government, had had the
4ta li•
llt."ett considerable modifying these declarations. He
" If we were now convinced that the socialZiAd ,
c'fia"on of Ireland requires an alteration of the law
▪f• or "eParture from the compact which has been made,
• •should not Le prepared to maintain that. comb-
' INtl,le 1/11t still he came to the same conclusion, in su -
bpi as his colleagues; because he said afterwards,
alltli,,,l%;ng reason and conviction in aid of compact and
I,coups-clitY, and I come to the conclusion that the best
711,1ribie and the course which, I for one, as far as my
talo in Powers can be exerted, can pursue, is to main-
Liles ; its integrity the Protestant Church." Now,
Nt,e,:peclarations held out very little hope as to the
,taore.,ate of Ireland, but a still stronger and a still
t4,„ttd, signal declaration on the same subject had been
atilliaunther place, to which he could not allude more
thre place.
by saying, that there were certain organs
,aSs ,teok the liberty of imparting to them all that
to ‘fVhich he referred. On the occa-
thU har_eli, e!!ntation owra petition on the subject of the Irish
llington said, " The Protestant temji ha_ subsisted of
124edIreland for 300 years. It had been
tostter_ uere during a system of contests, rebellions, and
" rto"; it was part of the compact ma with Ireland at
you4:tifdt,haenutnion • it was the foundation on which the
of cannot depart from it without being
r°,,f a breach' of you cannot depart from it without being
S btCaOl. of faith worse than those pecuniary breaches
ti-°,l4lEt"-. I\'''hich have been alluded to on such °ee-
ilriseie old
'"",v, all these declarations were, in his humble
t•
di int; very useless and very impolitic. They irritated
not aolivioce
stemt nothing; they could not re-
yeople t—y which was indefensible upon any
Ills e' flat lo•a,hst He could not but help referring to
.1,115 nteo4rable occasion,tlrar4' on. which a Royal Duke, in alluding to
"teeleistort of Catholic Emancipation, had made a remarkable
•WNit:-1144. The h f the Duke of York did more in
114401.'erees tu alienate and exasperate Ireland than all the
'lr.) a and suffering of which he had complained—(Hear,
11 TIC said concession to Catholics would be a total change
• 'attj'tdhsnsventa,l principles- of the Constitution and a blow
di toi eD root of . it—that
.nob,ody could be more in-
ertt_ eratlen than his late Majesty., but there was a great
thus Co netween toleration and emancipation. He said that
ththsetoKod. in the way of concession, from the
could not release himself by any
11„1,1 41°w,', releasedmrb any act of the Legislature. He
sirt'ia", imbibed those principlesY in his earliest youth,
. 44-Ittitid,e-asteiohnbed to their justice. after the most mature
ale, Would o these princhiples he still adhered,
dee7t uf maintain and act upto them, down to the last mo-
tarations
ttle oh, EL_
.not, however, stop .
existence—so
ence—s°
help
him
the God.--(
(sile eoafre'vlieenatrs.,)foTr, thlfet
Itod ei",fu-Ipation Act was carried four years afterwards--
I ;"-'t f it was to delay a great and wise measure,
karkta iel)r.'"e it of hlf •t g ce and utility. There was a re-
!Pecch f I sp,-hrat H n Baronet, the Secretary.of
fosprentee' vieuhtittielti;ya.t the time of •t °delivery, made an impression
r the Right
(11N1r. Ward) had quoted it on a
ther.ne,s sat{ the , tne Right Hon. Baronet, said that if the Ca-
kt,-elves theme ergans, senses, affections,' and passions, as
and were Y,would never be satisfied if Catholic En-13nel-
- t c yarned, to leave an intrusive Church in Ire.la.n.d.,
reliwor:,„oll7;tr..y first. use they would. make of that political
li ears
ac, to reinstate their own Church ; yet, within
WwereaduCr ;he delivery of that speech., the Roman
put it itiiteed to the enjoyment of political pow er.— (Hear )
834 thecould
Right lion. Baronet, then, how they
oo
deoare t.,Y Ireland without doing that which, 27ears ,
14lic ett 4 could be utterly impossible to withhold if Ca-
retpat ion were carried. Now, let him recal to
ithe
r.! %%1111'4
...loth? House what was the real subject of d.ispoutae..hßss
refe4_t.'seary them with any lengthened stati.s !cal d
ttile
tie,,es",7 to the revenues of the Church , wasd 1 t
mediaosal Y,o do so, because his Noble Friend had place a
by %eV tbe most recent data which could b.e
Zrout beforeFesiastical Commissioners. The question
Of WOuld b_ them in such a shape that ,
believed
L. Lae r,ve
.e very little difference of opinion as to the amount
• tish Chr94e. Last year his estimate of the revenue of the
ete, was
6511; which was exceedingly imperfect and inco.rno-
-4a2eireptu‘e,7s3/. The estimate of his Noble Friend, owing
.025/. ranee, which were afterwards explained, 7.
ttaaates
e;eleaving a difference of 1`)0,000/. Both those
the very Much under the mark. He believed he might 4nds
andPlscipal revenues—the revenues held by deans,•pre-
esked, unnor canons, at 196,132/. ; the parochial tithes at
i the episcopal at 9,000 L; tithes held by dignitaries

at 24,0001. ; making in all 524,660/. Deduct from this 25/.
per cent. for the rent-charge, and there remained 390,495/.
Add for episcopal revenues, after deducting tithes, 162,001)1 ,
which made 552,753/. ; add to this the value cf glebes and
demised tithes, and the total present income of the Irish
Church appeared to be 652,000/. He b-lieved the estimate
formed by Lord Morpeth same years ago, was 744,926/.
Well, 'now, the y had to provide out of this income for a popula-
tion of 750,010 Episcopalians. In the original returns the Wes-
leyans were improperly included. Th-y amounted to at least
100,01) persons, and were totally independent of the Establish-
ment.—( Cheers. ) In England there were 14,000,000 Pro-
testants. There were in Ireland 2,450 parishes, end 1,422
beneficed clergy. In England there were I 0,7e0 parishes. In
Ireland there were two archbishops and ten bishops ; in Eng-
land, with an episcopal population ten times larger, there were
only two archbishops and twenty bishops.—( Hear, hear.) To
one bishop there were in Ireland 115 benefices; in England
there were 411 The diocese of Lincoln contained 1259
benefices, and that of Norwich 1,033 ; so that there
were two bishops in this country for 2,292 benefices, whilst
there were 1,422 benefices in Ireland with ten bishops and
two archbishops to superintend them.—( Hear. hear.) He put
it to the House whether one archbishop and three bishops
would not be an ample provision for 1,422 benefices, with
752,000 Protestants, costing eighteen or twenty shillings each?
But that was not all. Including educational grants, grants
for building churches, and other objects, not leis than
3,310,0001. had been voted since the union, to support the
Irish Establishment. The charter schools, founded by a
Primate Poulter, were proselyting schools, in which the
Catholic children were taught to regard their parents
as heretics. How could they be expected to turn out well.
when they were educated in such a belief? Ir point of fact
they had not done so. lie did not wish to repeat anything
which he had stated already ; but some of his former state-
ments having been denied, he felt bound to allude to them.
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Recorder of Dublin said that
the neglect of the native language had been greatly over-
rated. The Honourable Gentlemen then referred to events
which occurred in the reigns of Elizabeth and James
to bear out his statements on this subject. The
Hon. Gentleman then went into a series of statements, to
show that from the first establishment of the English dominion
in Ireland. the object of the Government had constantly been
to enrich the Church at the expense of the people. The Hon.
Baronet the Member for Oxford had on a former occasion al-
luded to the great improvement which had lately taken place
in the Episcopal clergy in Ireland. According to the Hon.
Baronet the Apostolic age was on the eve of returning in
that country. Now, it so happened that he (Mr. Ward) was
constantly receiving communications from Ireland on the sub-
ject of the Church. He. believed that he might say that his
desk was the general receptacle for all documents relating to
the abuses of the Established Church in Ireland. Now he
held in his hand a document, of the authenticity of which he
had no doubt, it was entitled a catalogue of the genuine effects
of the late venerable Thomas De Lacy, Archdeacon of Meath,
to be sold by auction, and was dated in February last. Among
the articles for sale, he found enumerated forty thorough-bred
horses and mares, justly celebrated in all the hunts and steeple-
chases in Ireland ; an entire Spanish ass ; a spanish donkey
in foal; thirty coupe of beagles, and thirteen brace o: greyhounds
well known in the county of Meath.—( Hear.) These things
seemed certa'nly very little like the Apostolic age as he under-
stood it. The Hon. Baronet would find that there was still
small rooom for improvement. These documents had been
transmitted to him by a Catholic clergyman, who, in his letter,
had stated that the pla7ard enclosed would illustrate the man-
ner in which the wealth of the State was lavished on the
Church of the minority in Ireland, hut he protested against
the wealth being transferred to the Catholic Church. His de-
sire was to see it employed in some purpose which should be
useful to all classes of the people. Such were the doctrines
entertained by the whole Catholic prelacy and priesthood. Now
how could they imagine that the people of Ireland, when they
saw these revenues, which had been originally left for the sup-
port of the Catholic religion, thus lavished on the members of a
sinecure Church, who wasted them in the profusion of worldly
luxury—how could they imagine the people of Ireland could place
any reliance on their sense of right or of justice? He admitted
that the late Archdeacon De Lacy was a kind, hospitable, li-
beral man--he did not complain of him, but of the system.
Nature had intended him for an excellent fox-hunting squire,
but the law had made him a bad archdeacon.—( Laughter.)
But then they were told that to meddle with the Irish Church
would be a breach of the Act of Union. If the Act of Union
had no better foundation to stand upon than that, God help
them and it—it would not stand twelve months.—( Hear. )
He c mid not forget the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Government on the Dissenters' Chapel B:11—a
measure which met with his hearty concurrence. The Right
I-lon. Baronet had spoken of the good effects of perfect tolera-
tion at Tamworth, where they were like a happy family, with a
Unitarian chapel at one end of the town, a Catholic chapel at
the other, and the ',church, like the cut in the Honourable
Baronet's caricature, keeping the peace between them.
—( Hear, hear.) Surely Tamworth was not to be the
exception—why was not the Tamworth system made co-exten-
sive with the empire ?—( Hear, hear, from Sir R. Peel.) He
knew the meaning of that cheer. In Tamworth the Church
had her rights, and 'the Dissenters were tolerated. That was
right, for the Church was the Church of the majority ; but let
the Right Hon. Baronet transfer the revenues of the Church 1
to the Unitarian or the Catholic minority, and he would have a
little Ireland at his park gate in a fortnight. He utterly denied
that they were bound to support the Irish Church, either by
the Act of Union, or by the Emancipation Act of 1829. The
Catholic oath, in 1829, was framed without any participation
or compact with the Catholics, and, at the time of the union,
not only was there no compact in favour of the Church, but
there were assurances given by Mr. Pitt, and by Lord Corn-
wallis, that the union should be immediately followed by
Catholic emancipation. As a proof of this, he would refer, not
only to the communications of those distinguished men, but to
the whole course of the union debates. As a proof of Mr.
Pitt's sincerity in thist instance, he would remind the House
that when Mr. Pitt found he could not carry his measures in
favour of the Catholics into effect, he resigned office, in 1804,
and yet the men who dined at Pitt clubs coupled Mr. Pitt's
name with Protestant ascendancy.—(Cheers.) Why, Mr.
Pitt had actually struck out the sixth article of the union as it
came front Ireland, which saved the Church all the rights,
privileges, and jurisdictions which then belonged to it, and had
substituted the article as it stood at present, guaranteeing to
the Church its discipline and doctrine in the place of the
original sixth article ; and he made this substitution on the
ground that he wished to reserve to the Imperial Parliament
the power of considering what it might be expedient to do for
his Majesty's Catholic subjects. Now, it was not possible for
a Minister of the Crown to hold stronger language than this.
But, even supposing the Act of Union had guaranteed the pre-
servation of the Irish Church interest, still he might ask the
Right Hon. Baronet how he proposed to deal with the
question? This was the last remnant of the old system. The
Right Hon. Baronet must have foreseen some years ago that
it must come to this. He had emancipated the Catholics, and
he also stated that when they were emancipated, if they had
the feelings of men they must necessarily use their power to
endeavour to obtain the restoration of their own Church, and
that the union with Scotland had never been completed until
that had been effected. How did the R.ght Hon. Baronet mean
to deal with this question? Did he mean to fall back on the
‘• No Popery" cry, and tore-enact the Catholic disabilities? He
had lately seen a remarkable suggestion on this point from a gen-
tleman who had at one time been honoured by a high eulogium
by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, he meant the
Rev. Hugh 114•Neiil, who, although he was not now so im-
portant as he was some years ago, before the present Ministry
came into power, was still a gentleman possessed of considerable
local influence. That gentleman as late as December
last, in addressing the Conservative Operative Associa-
tion of Liverpool, had given it as his opinion,
that the British Constitution would be destroyed unless
political disabilities were again imposed on the Roman Catho-
lics.—( Hear, hear.) He hardly thought the Right Hon.
Baronet would agree with that gentleman. Then there was
another gentleman, the Rev. Mr. Glover, who, in a re-
cent work on Ireland, had stated it as his opinion that all the
agitation in Ireland was owing to the double episcopal rule of
the Roman Catholic Bishops and of the Bishops of the Esta-
blished Church, which was the ancient Church. Mr. Glover
stated that it was entirely in the power of the Home Secretary
to stop the agitation at any time, by issuing a royal proclama-
tion informing the people of Ireland that the Roman Catholic
Church was a new Church, not dating to a later period than
the seventeenth :century, and that the Bishops of the Esta-
blished Church were the true representatives of the Apostles,
and of the Saints in general, and of St. Patrick in particular ;
that that was the old religion, which was not the
less old because it was preached in the English language.
Those were professions made by men who professed the sin-
cerest regard for all classes of their fellow-countrymen, and one
of them at least had been lauded for his mildness by the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies. Was the Right Hon.
Gentleman at the head of the Government prepared to say that
Catholics were not justified in voting for those reforms in Ihe
Established Church which a large portion of the 'Protestants of
this kingdom were in favour of ? Did he mean to go back to
the days of 1753 or of 1792, when Lord Westmoreland indig-
nantly rejected a petition from the inhabitants of Cork, because
it contained a paragraph which prayed for the remission of
some of the penal laws which then afflicted Catholics? Did the
Right Hon. Baronet subscribe to Mr. Montgomery Martin's
recommendation—to punish every Irishman who happened to
be a repealer with the loss of his goods ? Did he believe in the
soundness of the triumph over " the convicted conspirators ?'
Did he believe that that success would insure the peace of Ire-
land ? He thought that would be a most unsound conclusion,
and one which he saw nothing in tine present condition cf the
affairs of that country to warrant—he saw nothing in Ireland
now but a sullen dogged feeling of dislike to England, and a
distrust of our justice.--4 Hear, hear.) There was a general
feeling there, that if O'Connell had been an Englishman and
tried in England, he would have been acquitted—( Loud cries
of " Hear, hear")—that he was in prison because he was an
Irishman, and because he was tried in Dublin.—( Hear, hear. )
Such a feeling naturally gave rise to strong and general re-
sentment. He saw no sign of discouragement or despondency
on the part of those who had joined Mr. O'Connell in the re-
peal agitation. He saw no sign of any disposition to ask un-
worthy favours of the Crown to effect the release of a man who,
whatever his faults might be—and he (Mr. Ward) did not be-
lieve they were greater than what would naturally fall to the
lot of one engaged in active public duty—a man whom history
would pronounce to be the most eminent of his age and coun-
try—he saw no disposition, he repeated, to sue for even his
liberty, although it would be, no doubt, to the Irish people a
source of unspeakable satisfaction. He feared, if the wounded
feelings which at present existed were not allayed, that the
struggle would soon be of a different nature—a struggle
for separation instead of repeal. Were the sympathies
of Europe with them in this persecution of Ireland? He
thought not—he did not think the Government could rely on
them for a moment. Ireland was our Poland, and what was
felt for Poland we ought to feel for Ireland. He did not ask
them to go to Catholic Belg;um or Catholic France, but he
would go to Protestant Switzerland and Protestant Ger-
many. The Hon. Member then referred to a passage in a
French work, the " Bibliotheque Originel," lately published,
in which it was stated that the present condition of Ireland was
utterly untenable. The work was circulated over the whole
Continent, and the Continental newspapers generally had aper-
feet horror of our policy. They could not understand the mi-
serable inconsistency of our applauding public liberty, and yet
practising the most illiberal policy upon a large portion of our
fellow-subjects. For three centuries the greatest cruelties
had been practised on them in the name of the
Irish Protestant Church Establishment.—( Hear.) Why
the treaty of Westphalia, although its territorial re-
gulations had been long since blown to the wind, was prized
be the Germans, because it conferred civil and religious
liberty. Germany sympathised with Ireland, and wished to
see her shake off that yoke of oppression, that cruel yoke, by
the tortures of which, as Judge Jebb remarked, you might
track Ireland by her blood, like a wounded man.—( Hear, ,
hear.) Whilst we were voting away 800,000/. a year for the
emancipation of the blacks, we were annually higgling and
haggling about a paltry sum of 8,000/. a year for the education
of 7,000,000 of our fellow-subjects.—(Hear, hear.) Was it
not lamentable to see us risking the peace of Ireland, to pre.
serve a paltry rotten system, which Pitt had, twenty-seven
years ago, declared must be abandoned, and which, he said,
could not survive Catholic ernancipation. We saw the King of ,
Prussia laying the first stone of the Catholic cathedral at
Cologne amid acclamations, and yet the Queen
of England could not place the name of the most
distinguished Catholic in her realms on the Privy
Council, without encountering the vulgar abuse of Exeter
Hall. lie would call upon the House that night to take the
first step to put an end to this system. He trusted that the 1
subject of the Irish Church would receive ample consideration
at the hands of the Commons of England, and that that fertile
source of discontent would be removed, and that tranquillity

would be permanently established. Ireland would have her
rights, hoss'ever they might slight them. Our only choice was
whether Ireland should receive her rights from our justice or
through our humiliation. He preferred conceding at once
what it would be dangerous and unjust in us longer to with-
hold. On a subject so exhausted as the present, he would not
longer dwell, but he believed the House had no other means of
averting the repeal of the union than by proving that the
Imperial Legislature CAI legislate for the whole people of Great
Britain and Ireland on the principles of equality and justice,
and that they were not only able, but willing, to consummate
at once this work of civil and religious renovation.—(Cheers. )
Lord ELIOT said, that during the last session of Parlia-
ment the subject of the Irish Church had been so thoroughly
discussed that he did not think it necessary to trespass, for any
length of time, on the attention of the House. He had on that
occasion so fully stated his opinions, that he thought it the less
necessary to trespass on their attention. If he rightly under-
stood the motion of the Hon. Member, it was much more
limited in its nature than the motion of last year. Neither did
the Hon. Gentleman go into the same ample details as on a
former occasion, but contented himself with requesting of the
House to accede to Isis motion for inquiry. The principal
argument of the Hon. Member was, that as the Members of the
Established Church in Irelaad bore a small proportion to the
whole people of Ireland, that, therefore, the Established Church
should be stripped of its temporalities. He admitted the pre-
mises, but denied the conclusion. It was not a mere question of
numbers, it was a question of principle, of right. They were
not now called upon to consider which was the best mode of
supporting the Establi-hed Church in Ireland. They had now
to deal with the Church which had a prescriptive right to its
temporalities nearly 300 year. He did not think the argu-
ment of prescriptions could be altogether disregarded by Hon.
Gentlemen on the other side of the House. There was no part
of the speech of the Right Hon Gentlenian, the Member for
Edinburgh, on the Dissenters' Chapels Bill—that eloquent,
argumentative speech—which seemed to have made a greater
impression on the House than that in which he treated of pre-
scription. He showed how much his right was cherished, and
to what an extent it prevailed, not only in the polished
States of Greece and Rome, but even among the
uncivilized nations of the East. But he (Lord
Eliot) did nut, by any means, altogether rely on
prescription. The temporalities of the Established Church
were secured to her by the Act of Union, and were confirmed
by the Catholic Emancipation Bill. The fourth article of the
union was decisive on this point. Mr. Pitt, who had been
frequently quoted as an authority by the lion. Member for
Sheffield, was decidedly adverse to the abridgment of the tem-
poralities of the Established Church. The Noble Lord then
quoted the speech of Sir Henry Parnell in 1811. in which that
distinguished man stated that the Established Church in Ire-
land had been secured in strength by the Act of Union, which
was one of the objects of that union ; and he quoted Mr. Pitt's
authority to the same effect. Mr. Pitt was of opinion that the
Established Church in Ireland would derive security from being
consolidated with the Established Church in England. The
people of England had been assured at the time the Catholic
Relief Bill was passed, that the Protestant Church in Ireland
would be secured by it. Mr. Grattan, in 1823, thought the
revenues of the Established Church should be supported, and
should not be subjected to any species of spoliation. Lord
Plunkett deprecated in the strongest manner the transfer of
any portion of the temporalities of the Established Church to
the Roman Catholic Church. He said he respected the rights
of the Established Church, and would resist any encroach-
ment on them. He maintained that the property of the
Church ought to be held is sacred as any other species of pro.
perry ; and down to 1832 the present Earl Spencer,
then Lord Althorp, held language of the same nature. He
was adverse to any spoliation of the revenues of the Church.
After dwelling on this portion of the subject at some further
length, the Noble Lord proceeded to notice the argument of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield regarding the mal-administra-
firm of the Irish Government in respect to Church patronage.
The Hon. Member said that appointments had been made in
the Irish Church which were calculated to excite .the discon-
tent of that people, and that those dignitaries who were so
appointed were unfriendly to the people; and the Hon. Member
attempted t °bolster up his case by reading a placard, announcing
the sale of some of the property of one Archdeacon Lacy—an
elderly, eccentric gentleman, who, be it remembered, was not
dependent upon the revenues of the Established Church, but
hail an ample property of his own, The Hon. Member had
somewhat misrepresented his (Lord Eliot's) sentiments; he
had not said anything which could be construed into an opi-
nion that Catholic Emancipation in any way invalidated the
Established Church. Neither could it be urged as a reason for
spoliating the revenues of the Established Church, that they
should be applied to the Roman Catholic Church, or to the
endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy ; for the ROman
Catholics, as well as their clergy, repudiated the idea of a State
provision. Then, what would they do with the property of the
Established Church were they to confiscate it?
Mr. M. O'CONNELL—AppIy it to secular purposes.
Lord ELIOT was entirely averse to any such application,
and he believed if the revenues of the Established Church
were taken away none would lament it more than the Roman
Catholics themselves. Whatever opinionhe (Lord Eliot) might
entertain regarding the endowment of the Roman Cathode
clergy, and he owned he was not unfriendly to it, must, during
the present state of feeling on the part of the Roman Catholic
population and clergy, be altogether abandoned. But this was
not the time to discuss that subject. In fine, he conceived that
the Hon. Member's plan was unjust, inexpedient, and incapa-
ble of producing the effects which he anticipated from it ; and
firmly entertaining these opiniors he called upon the House in
the most earnest manner to reject the motion.
Mr. ROSS said he had heard it stated by Hon. Members
on the other side of the House, on several occasions when this
question was under discussion, that there was no real grievance
in the establishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland; but
he and others knew well, from practical experience, that these
asseverations had no foundation in fact, and that wrong did
exist. There was one Hon. Member on the Ministerial
benches (Mr. Shaw, we believe), who never hesitated to say
that, for his religion, he was ready at any moment to lay dow n
his life. He for one did not doubt his sincerity, but he disap.
proved the feelings which prompted such an avowaL He be-
lieved such sentiments to be irreconcilable with the Christian
dispensation. There were some occasions when his sense of
duty would compel him ( Mr. Ross) to fight ; he would fight fur
his country, but he would not fight for his religion, because, in
doing so, he must necessarily be attempting to violate the con-
science, the scruples, and the religious feelings, of his fellow
man. It was said by the opponents of the present
motion that, if it were agreed to, it would be consenting to
the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. lie
hoped he was as good a Protestant as any man in that House,
and his opinion was that no injury could ever accrue to the
Protestant faith by any such step. He believed the Protestant
religion to be placed on too solid a foundation ever to be shaken,
even though all its endowments were swept away. But, for his
part, he ss as prepared to contend that even if this wss a real
grievance, they were bound to consult even the preju-
dicea of those from whom they differed. And when
the Roman Catholic population of Ireland looked at their
own clergy, and then at the rich clergy of the Estab-
lished Church, and contrasted the two, they felt keenly how
strange and strong that contrast was. Under these circum-
stances, then, the question arose, what was to he done? It
had been said that evening, as on previous occasions, that a
Committee only was asked for, and that no specific measure of
relief had been suggested. Now, in his (Mr. Ross's) opinion,
the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) had acted much
more suitably and respectfully by leaving the remedy to the
wisdom of the House itself. The Honourable Gentleman
called on the House to consent to take the first and
necessary step towards a remedy, and that was by
going into a Committee of the whole House. He
thought they ought to act towards the Roman Catholics as
they acted towards the Presbyterian clergy, who received the
Regium Donum. It was due time for the House to turn its
attention to the subject. There was danger in delay. He
did not mean to say there was any danger of a rising on the
part of the people of Ireland, for peace and order had been
preached to them. But human nature was human nature,
and the Irish people might avail themselves of the first oppor-
tunity presented to them, and when that House would too late
repent it had not hearkened to the advice of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield.—( Hear. )
Mr. SHAW said he was not surprised at the weariness
which seemed to pervade the House upon this subject,
whether it arose from a consciousness of what the result would
be, or from its having been so frequently discussed before.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, as usual led
the attack on the Established' Church of Ireland, of which
he (Mr. Shaw) was the humble advocate in that
House, but lie perceived from the speech of the Hon. Gen-
tleman that the tactics of the party with whom he acted
were considerably changed. The mask of professed friend-
ship towards the Established Church had been at length
cast off. He was glad of it, for the professing friend was
more dangerous than the open foe. There was no more
talk of surplusses and appropriation clauses. The destruc-
tion of the Established Church was now put forward, and
this he believed was always the object which Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite had in view. The issue now sent to the House
and country to try, was whether the Established Church, after a
possession of 300 years, was to have its property confiscated, and
the Roman Catholic Church established in its place?—(No, no. )
The Hon. Gentleman again said that there should be no hig-
gling about terms. He would not admit of terms, but would
take his stand on the ground of justice. As the representative
of the Church of Ireland in that House, he would repeat the
terms of the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman had
spoken of the failure of the Established Church in Ireland in
winning over the people. A main cause of that, perhaps, was
the maladministration and neglect of the Irish Church. The
Hon. Gentleman again alluded to there being no Protestant
prayer-books printed in the Irish language for the use of the
people. Now he begged to tell the Hon. Gentleman that
the Protestant prayer-book was the 'first ever printed in
Dublin, and during the last twenty years thousands of them
had been circulated by the Society for the promotion of Chris-
tian Knowledge. The Hon. Gentleman then went to parti-
cular cases, and referred to Archdeacon De Lacy. Now, this
clergyman was the owner of a considerable private fortune,
which he spent in works of charity, and if he kept a great
number of cows, he gave away the milk to the poor. If he
was fond of sporting, there were perhaps not far from where
he had lived Roman Catholic clergymen who were also fond of
their gun and their hounds, but he should be sorry to adduce
this as an instance of the conduct of the Roman Catholic
clergy generally. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted a hand-
bill of the auction of this clergyman, which he supposed was
drawn up by some George Robins, giving as flourishing an
account as pcnaible of the property to be sold.—( A laugh. )
The character of no Church should be estimated from
the conduct of individuals. What were the cir-
cumstances of the Established Church in Ireland?
Now, he believed there was no practical grievance now felt by
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Whatever grievance they
had suffered with respect to tithes had been removed by their
being transferred from Catholic to Protestant landlords. The
nett income of the beneficed clergy was now about 350,0001.,
including curates, 377,050/. The income of the archbishops
and bishops was about 6 1,0001. a year, Adding the incomes of
deans, chaplains, &e., the total would be about 550,000/. a
year. The average of the benefices, supposing them to be
1,400, was 332,000/. That was 225/. for each beneficed clergy-
man. He believed that the Hon. Gentleman had understated
the number of Episcopalians in Ireland. AceOrding to the
Commissioners of Instruction, it was 850,000 ; but the
Wesleyan Methodists of Ireland considered them-
selves as belonging to the Established Church, and
supposing that to be the case, the entire number of
Episcopalian Protestants in Ireland was not, he believed, less
than a million. Fifty sinecures had been abolished since
August, 1833, and thirty-two pluralists had been taken from
the list ; there were at present only eighty-one pluralists
remaining. In 1837 it was roported that there were 345 non-
residents; there were now only 109. When the Temporalities
Act had been brought into full operation, he believed there
would not be two benefices worth 1,500/. a year, and not ten
worth 1,0001. There were, under the bishops and clergy of
the Irish Church, 1,873 schools, containing 102,520 scholars.
Now he could not help observing that such motions as
that before the House would rather tend to excite than to
allay the animosities which had hitherto existed. He did not
believe that the abolition of the Irish Church would give the
Catholic population a single meal ; and he thought it was hard
that those who had been the firmest friends of British connexion,
and who had suffered so many privations, should now be threat-
ened with the destruction of that institution.—( Hear, hear. )
The object of the motion could not be mistaken ; but he trusted
that he should never live to see the day when the Government
would countenance such a proposition.
Mr. REDINGTON knew to what new party the lion.
and Learned Gentleman might consider himself to belong;
but he could imagine the shouts of derision with which, such
a speech as that which had just been made would be received
lin Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman and the party to which he