The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-17 00:00:00

TIE SUN, LONDO

_
THE SOUTH-EASTERN cOl-‘,ll &NY I Perhaps the Committee would allow me to suggest that I
should be very glad that the original letter, of which this is
AND TliE 130 OW tNANCE. a copy, should be given in. and I will state pre esely why.
2VIDENCE T 4" EN BEFOIsE THE CoNE,IITTEF.. i I have written thus far, but in the original leer to Mr.
Members pre,enr—Lord A,111,), I) utiles, Mrs Fearon you will find this sentence—" I could not at. te the pre-
buncombe, 'Sir. Tama El,prten, Ida Mr. Heyter, cite words; I did not think of copying it : but yo . will find a
Mr, feedee, Mr. paienven, \le 11 14 Roebuck, sentence to this effect—' I shall be glad if you wel show this
Wilson nue:: 1:r.
Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Tancred, Mr. Vernon, Lord Wortley. letter to any person to whom you may have shorn Mr. Ilig-
Benjamin Hawes, Eq., in the chair. nett's letter; that was in order to make my deal as public
Francis R. Bonham Esq., called in and examined. and unequivocal as the charge. The followinz morning, I
Witness—ln making the' application lam about to do to the found, of course, the answer from Mr. Fearon, and he en-
Committee, I trust you will allow me to preface it with a very closed me this letter, which then, fer the first time, I saw.
few observations. The witness read the same, as follows :
few
you allow me to precede what you are " South-Eastern Railway Office, 35A, Great George-
going to say, by stating what the Committee have entrusted street, Westminster, July 27, 1845.
me to epmmunicate to you? It is their wish teat the whole of " Sir—l have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your
the evidence that is supposed to militate against yon, in your letter of yesterday's date, and beg to forward you herewith a
public capacity, should be in your hands, and that you should copy of Mr. Hignett's letter of the 2d of February last to the
have the fall cognisance of all that has been alleged against secretary of the South-Eastern Railway Company.
your public conduct ; if that has not been done, you are at " I have, &c.,
perfect liberty to wait till you have full cognisance of all that "JOHN P. FEARON.
has been said before the Committee, before you make any
Statement.
Witness-1 am exceedingly obliged to you ; I have had no
papers. My object in appearing here may b.: considered
an improper object. I am told that I have forgone an ad-
vantage, and I am quite willing to forego that in the
anxiety that I have of setting myself right, or at least of
making such explanation, whether it be satisfactory or not,
as in my cro-s-examination or the evil -nee of ethers will
bear tee test of truth. The object of ny coming here
is to pray that I may be immediately examined ; and one
word I have to say upon that. It wss late on Wednesday
when I heard that a statement was made as to the cheque.
I heard it indirectly ; this Committee was sitting, and the
immediate impulse upon my mind was to send in to beg to
be examined at the moment ; but I felt that as you pro-
leably were upon the other question, that is, immediately
upon the petition, it would be impertinent and im_proper
for me to occupy your time at that moment. It was
only last night that I heard in a way that may readily
occur by a gentleman that was examine 1, that the
question of the cheque was gone into. I immediately deter-
mined in my own mind to appear before the Committtee; the
advice of the only friend I consulted upon it was against it ;
he said, " You forego an advantage ; you should hear the
whole first." lam ready, however, to foreeo that advan-
tage, and I am perfectly willing to state the case, sub-
jecting my statement to the test of cross-examination
afterwards, and the statement of other witnesses who
may be examined. I am prepared to make a state-
ment of the precise facts. The Committee will re- '
member that the transaction was nine years ago. I have ne
paper of any kind or sort. I think, however, my statement
will be so correct as to defy contradiction ; at the same
time, up to yesterday, when I saw Mr. Wray after his examina-
tion, I was mistakett as to one point which I am extremely
anxious to explain; he set me right yesterday as to that. My
statement must be very short: In the early part of the session
of 1836, Mr. Wray, to whom I was under considerable
obligations (it is not necessary to state them with any
explicitness), came to me and said, "I am very much
interested in the success of the South-Eastern Railway,
and I wish you would give us a lift ; and I want your
advice upon some points." I said. " 3ly dear Wray, I owe
very great obligations to you, and I will do anything I can to
serve you." He said, " I should be very much obliged to you
if you would." And, upon that, I have not the least hesita-
tion in stating that I did all I could individually to assist Mr.
Wray in the object he had in view; that is, in plain terms,
I did what I could to assist him in passing that
Bill, both in and out of Parliament. Mr. Wray never
held out to me one word, nor did any conversation ever take
place, as to any advantage of any kind or sort that I was to
derive from it. I considered it a great personal advantage,.
I mean personal, with reference to the debt of gratitude that I
owed him ; I considered it a great pleasure to myself to do what
could for him. There were some questions upon the French
lines where I gave them some advice, I will not say assistance,
because they were well able to assist themselves. I never had
any communication in anyway with any members of the South-
Eastern Railway Committee. I never had from them directly
or indirectly, or from Mr. Wray, directly or indirectly, any offer
of any personal advantage to myself to be derived from it.
After that Bill was passed, Mr. Wray came to me and
stated that the South-Eastern Railway Company felt that I had
been of use to them, great use to them, I think he said, and
that they had kept a quantity of reserved shares, which had not
been disposed of, and that they had determined to appropriate
100 shares for my benefit. Mr. Wray said, "I know it will not be
convenient for you to hold these shares," meaning, of course,
what Ido not deny, that lam not a rich man. "I will hold
them for von, and I think I can derive some advantage from
them ;" and Mr. Wray, I think, about three weeks after-
wards (he will be able to tell you better), came to me and
said, " I have been able to make 3001. of those shares, which
I will give you." From beginning to end, so far as I know
of the transaction, I have no hesitation in stating that
that is the whole transaction. It is nine years ago, and I
had very much forgotten it ' • my impression was the other
day, that I had not received the 3001., but that, in point of
fact, as I owed Mr. Wray money, Mr. Wray had received the
3001. for my benefit, liquidating the debt. That was my im-
ression; but the day before yesterday, when I stated this to
fir. Wray, he said, " You are wrong, depend upon it ; I gave
you the money, either in a cheque or money." And I said,
" If you did I have not the least recollection; but as I never
meant to suppose for a moment that I had not had the
benefit of it in some way, you are much more likely to know
than I am, and therefore I take it for granted, under
the circumstances, that I received the money." I have
not the least recollection of receiving it, but I take it for
granted that so it is. I cannot have the slightest doubt of
it, and I must take it for granted that he did give me the
cheque. I can only state again that, as to the transaction
itself, there was never, at the time I assisted him, the smallest
expectation on my mind of deriving any advantage from it ;
and of course, when I state this, the Committee will most
naturally and properly take care to ascertain that fact from other
quarters. I think I can undertake to say, net knowing who the
Directors of the South-Eastern Railway were at that time, so
much as this, that all those gentlemen will tell you the same. I
should hope so, for, upon my honour, I do not know their names,
not all of them ; but I challenge them all, from beginning to
end, to say that I had ever the slightest expectation of any
kind or sort, and Mr. Wray also ; and the proposal as to these
shares Was never made to me till after the Bill had passed, and
the shares I never received, inasmuch as it would not have
been convenient ; but the shares' worth, afterwards, I did re-
ceive from Mr. Wray ; that is the transaction.
Was that the only sum which you so received from the
South-Eastern Company ?—Certainly, unequivocally the only

( Signed)
" Francis R. Bonham, Esq."
Have you ever held scrips or shares in the South-Eastern
Railway ? No—never in my life. I use the expression sub-
ject to the explanation about the shares of Mr. Wray's—l
never held a single share, or applied for a single share, nor
ever thought of applying for a single share.
Permit me to repeat the same question with regard to the
North Kent shares ?—T never applied for a single share. I
have held shares and hold shares. I bought the shares in the
market, and I hold them at this moment.
In what company ? —ln the North Kent Company.
Will you inform the Committee the date of the purchase of
those shares in the North Kent Company ?—I could easily get
it, but I cannot speak from memory, but it was very long since.
I should be perfectly prepared by to-morrow to state the time.
I bought the shares in the market at a premium, and paid a
deposit.
Was the purchase of those shares suggested to you by any
one ?—No, it was suggested by my own opinion that it was
very good line, judging from what I had heard. Ido not prl
fess to have much knowledge of engineering, but the company
was a strong company, and fro' what I remembered and always
thought of the advantage of having a direct coast line to Dover
I thought that would be a good line. I considered myself as
much entitled to buy shares in that as any other line in
the market.

Have you purchased shares in the market in many com-
panies, not with a view to investment, but as a speculation ?—I
have not the least objection to answer the question. I have.
Have you ever had any joint transactions in the purchase of
shares with Mr. Hignett, the solicitor to the Board of Ordnance?
—Never in my life.
Whatever shares you have purchased in railway companies
have all been purchased in the railway market, entirely at the
dictation of your own opinion of the merits of the company
of which you have purchased shares ?—Every share I ever
bought has been purchased upon my own opinion, in the open
market ; and certainly I have had no shares in any company,
nor even any conversation which would lead to shares with
Mr. Hignett, and I have had no shares with any member of the
Board of Ordnance at all, or any person connected with the
Board of Ordnance. . . _ _

Mr. TA NCEED—You have had no conversation with Mr.
Hignett as to shares ?—No "conversation" is rather indefi-
nite. But I should say that I could have had no conversation
with Mr. Hiznett upon the subject; one is not in the way of
seeing him very much. I think I might safely say that I had
never any conversation with him upon the subject.
Mr. ROEBUCK—You do not hold any shares in the North
Kent Railway that you have not bought ?—I do not hold a
single share in the North Kent Railway that I have net bought
and paid for.
Mr. T. EaxaTow-..That purchase being a matter of invest-
ment, and not of speculation ?—I will endeavour to answer
that question as nearly as possible. I wish to answer it cor-
rectly ;itis a mixed question. I would rather answer that
question. I have no hesitation in saying that I had more
shares than I could pay up in full; and the advantage that I
contemplated was, to hold a certain number of shares, as I
think the speculation a good one, and likely to be for my ad-
vantage, and by selling some to pay for the others.
CHAIRMAN—Can you state to the Committee the lines of
railway which pass in or near the Ordnance property, upon
which the Board of Ordnance have reported their assent or
dissent ?—I really cannot ; and, extracrdinary as it may
appear to the Committee, I have never read one word of any
of the papers connected with any one of the railways. I
wish that answer to be put down. I have not read any of
the papers connected with any one of the railways, not con-
sidering it any part of my duty.
Then, whether you have bought or sold shares in any of the
lines so affecting Ordnance property, you cannot inform the
Committee ?—Yes ; I meant to state distinctly to the Com-
mittee that I had not bought shares in any other but the
North Kent Railway.
Mr. ROE auc K—Nor held shares? Nor held shares.
Mr. LIDDELL—May I ask you whether you ever attended
any meetings of the Board of Ordnance, where you pro-
nounced an opinion as to the merits of any particular lines?
—Never, upon my honour ; nor have I been called
upon to do so ; nor still, further, have I had an opportunity
of doing so. Perhaps the Committee will allow me to say
this; it will appear more distinctly if the Committee will do
that which I think is due both to the public and to the mem-
bers of the Board of Ordnance, viz., examine the highest
authorities in the department upon the subject ; I should be
most happy that Sir George Murray, Colonel Peel, and Mr.
Byham, who has been Secretary of the Ordnance for forty
years, should all be examined ; and I am sure they will all state
that I could have had no opportunity of giving an opinion, or
furthering or promoting the interests of any one of the railways.
I believe you have documents from the office, and you will see
my name signed to them. Many of the documents contain
this indorsement, " Refer it to the Inspector-General of For-
tifications for a report." When we have a report of the
Inspector-General of Fortifications, it is submitted to the
Master-General for approval. The papers will be before you;
and I state it, subject to the possibility of stating anything in-
accurately, with all thdconsequences before me. I have never
had any opinion to give, and never been called upon to give one.
In what capacity do you sign your name to these papers ?
—As a Member of the Board ministerially. I may make
myself understood in this way : when a railway company
applies to the Board of Ordnance for permission to pass
through their property, Mr. Byham, the secretary of the
Ordnance, not waiting for any communication from the
Board, makes the minute : " Refer it to the Inspector-
General of Fortifications for a report," the Inspector-Goneral
of Fortifications reports accordingly to the Board. In every
case, and on all occasions, the next minute will be, " Submit it
to the Master-General for his approbation." The Master-
General, you will find, always enters somewhat at large into the
question, and then he gives instructions to the Board to convey
his approbation or disapprobation of the line. That is the re-
gular official mode of doing business. We never have an aye
or nay upon the subject ; we have no opinion to offer; we can
offer none. It is a military question ; and the Waster-General
states that, upon all military questions, he reserves to himself the
entire power of deciding.
Then your signature, upon the occasions upon which it ap-
pears upon the papers, is purely in an official capacity?—
Purely official.
No discretion whatever is exercised on your part with re-
gard to the merits of any question which may come under the
consideration of the Board in those papers ?—No question
whatever on my part—no power of altering it in the minutest
degree ; of advancing the interests of one, and retarding the in-
terests of another.
Mr. HA IMM—ft is merely ministerial?—Merely minis-
terial.
Mr. SHE AIDA N—Are the papers read by the members of
the Board ?—With regard to the other members, you will have
an opportunity of having both Colonel Peel and Captain Bol-
dero before you ; but, for myself, I have never read a single
paper connected with one railway, for I have enough to do
without. Ido not understand engineering.

sum.
Have you read the petition which has been presented to the
House tram the South• Eastern Railway Company?—l have.
And. of course, therefore, you have read the letter, signed
" J. Hignett," dated " February 3, 1845 ?"—Yes.
I will read two passages in that letter I spoke to Mr.
Bonham en the same point," that is, the allocation of forth-
coming shares, "hut he feels some difficulty, as theta is to be
an opposition in Parliament to
your lines. • You can send some
shares to him or not, as ynu please, and mark your letter, Pri-
vate,' and state that you do so at my suggestion." Have you any
explanation or observation to make upon that ?—Mr. Hignett
never spoke to me on the subject in any way. I had never
communicated with him upon it. I never heard of the ex-
istence of any letter written, as it appears, on the 3d February,
up to the receipt of this letter from Mr. Fearon. Upon my
honour, as a gentleman, I was perfectly ignorant of the exist-
ence of such a letter till I received this letter from Mr. Fearon.
The Witness read the same as follows :
" South-Eastern Railway-office, 35 A, Great George-
street, Westminster, June 26, 1845.
" EC* lel it my duty to inform you, that under the advice
of counsel, a lette addressed by Mr. Hignett, the solicitor of
the Board to which are attached, to the late Secretary of
the South-Eastern Railtcay Com?any, will be prodeced this
day at the sitting of the Committee on Groue A ; your name
is mentioned in this letter, and it will no doubt appear desirable
to you that you should be present.—l have, &e.
( Signed) " JOHN P. FEARON,
" Solicitor to the South-Eastern Railway Company.
" Francis R, Bonham, Esq., Ordnance-office, Pall-mall."
The 26th of June was Thursday ; Thursday is not a board day
at the Ordnance. lam there every morning, but I had
quitted the office, and by a mere accident connected with other
matters, I went there to see somebody at a quarter to three;
and if it had not been for that, I should not have found the
letter till the following day. It was of course too
late to go down to the Committee that day. I im-
mediately sent for Mr. Hignett, not having the
least idea to what the letter could refer, to in-
quire whether he was in the House; they said he was not;
soon afterwards Mr. Hignett saw me. I sets a good
deal embarras'ed and astonished, and felt in a difficulty
to know what to do. Neither of my colleagues, neither
Colonel Peel nor Captain Boldero, we; in the House. Very
soon afterwards Captain Boldero came in, and brought a copy
of the letter addressed to him, and two or three minutes
afte:wards Mr. Hignett came in, in a state of great
agitation. I said to him, "I am very anxious to know
what this is. but I think all explanation had better be in
writing." He went out of the room, of course, immediately,
and I went very soon to a club in the neighbourhood. I
said, " I shall be at the Carlton for some time." In about
an hour or two afterwards I get a letter frem Mr. Hignett;
It was a confused letter, certainly, but the main point of the
letter was—. I de not like to put in the letter, because
you will have evidence enough to show you that I could not
have had anything to do with it. I will not pu• in that letter,
but I may say that Mr. Hignett wrote me a letter, expressing
his vexation, and so on, but saying that he was quite pre-
pared and ready to admit that he had never had any communi-
cation with me on the subject. The letter came about an hour
after I quitted the Ordnance-office. It came to the club. I
was in a private room in the club. I did not choose to remain
at the Ordnance, because I was afraid Mr. Hignett would come
up, and I wished to he away.
The Committee wish you to produce the letter which you
received from Mr. Hignett.
The letter was read as follows :
" Office of Ordnance, June 26, 1845.
" Sir—l have perused a letter addressed to you by Mr. J.
P. Pearon, solicitor to the South-Eastern Company, dated
this day, adverting to a letter stated to have been written by
sue to the late Secretary or triat in wirrurr jutul
name is mentioned; and in compliance with your desire to
be furnished with some explanation, I beg to state that I
remember applying for some new shares four or five months
ago, I having previously held some of the old shares in my own
name for individuals of my family ; but I have no recollection
of having used your name in my letter to the secretary. Most
assuredly I had no authority trom you to apply for shares in
your name, or on your behalf, neither had I ever communicated
with you on the subject. If I dil so, it must have been inad-
vertently, and very improperly no doubt, and I deeply regret
that the circumstance will occasion you much
J annoyance.
" I have, &c., " . MONETT.
" F. R. Bonham, Esq."
Soon after, Colonel Peel came in from the House of Com-
mons, and said to me " What upon earth is this story ?
There is a story down at the House about you?" and I im-
mediately put the letter into his hands, and said, " My dear
Peel, all I can tell you is, upon my honour I never heard
one word upon the subject. What is the matter? first let
me know what the story is." He said, " You had better write
to Mr. Lascelles to get a copy of the letter ;" and I had half
written a letter to Mr. Lascelles, when it occurred to me
that to write to Mr. Lascelles was perfectly absurd, inasmuch
as the Committee had refused to receive the letter, and there-
fore I could not get from him a copy of it; but as Mr.
Fearon hail written to me a letter which, in the hurry of the
moment, I bad forgotten to answer, the answeri r g of Mr.
Fearon's letter would give me a very good opportunity for in-
quiring for the letter; I kept a hurried copy of the letter which
I wrote to Mr. Fearon • probably Mr. Fearon would put in the
original; this was the letter which I wrote to Mr. Fearon the
same evening. The witness read the same as follows :
" 35, Clarges-street, June 26, 1845.
" Sir,— On my return to the Ordnance-office this afternoon
I found your letter, in whieh you state your intention of pro-
ducing a letter from Mr. Hignett to the secretary of the South-
Eastern Railway, in which letter my name is mentioned,
and I thank you for the courtesy of your communication
and I have since heard the substance of its
in w contents, but I
should be glad to have a copy of the letter,which I am,
of course, deeply interested. In the mean time, I can only
give the most solemn assurance that neither directly nor in-
directly was %Ir. Hignett authorised to use my name, or
make any application on my behalf, for any shares in any com-
pany, and that 1 had not the slightest notion that he had ever
dons ao.—l have, &c. ft, 1301STHAM.
(Signed) F.
" J. P. Fearon, Esq."

Mr. ROEBITCIC—Can you explain how it was that on one oc-
casion Mr. Hignett had to report ?—With regard to these three
railways, there were three competing lines, the North Kent, the
South-Eastern, and the Croydon, and the Master-General, you
will find, has reported (for there is great misconception on the
subject), his assent to each and all of them, subject to certain
conditions ; that is, that a certain clause should be put in,
which he dictates. This clause, of course, roust be put in by the
solicitor, and the solicitor is ordered to put in a clause for pro-
ject so and so ; for example, with reference to the North
Kent Railway, the Master. General reported his appro-
bation of the line. (I am speaking with regard to
Woolwich ; I do nut remember what it was as to Chatham,
but I remember that with regard to Woolwich from a
discussion that occurred since.) The Master-General reported
his assent to the North Kent Railway passing through Wool-
wich •common by a tunnel; he required that the whole extent
of our ground at Woolwich should be tunnelled; that was the
first condition; and I believe also that the stations on each
side should be so far from the Arsenal as not to produce incon-
venience by quantities of persons coming; subject to those two
conditions he assent .d. That assent is reported to the solicitor,
and he is instructed to prepare clauses; accordingly, Mr. Hig•
nett had to prepare those clauses.
What followed on the report being made by Mr. Hignett ?-

He is required to report to the Board, for the benefit of the
Master-General, how he has executed that duty. That report,
and you will find it among the papers, is sent to the Board ; and
you will find a minute referring it to the Master-General for
his approval ; but one word of it we are not called upon to read,
because we have not the power to decide upon it.
Mr. Linnets—With regard to the North Kent Railway, you
have stated that you bought shares in the market, and paid for
them a deposit, upon the impression that that was likely to be
a successful line of railway?--Certainly.
Has the North Kent Railway come under the consideration
of the Board of Trade ?—The North Kent Railway came under
the consideration of the Board of Trade, and the South-
Eastern was preferred.
In the report of the Board of Trade the South-Eastern was
preferred ?—Yes.
May I ask whether, from the transactions that had occurred
at the Board of Ordnance, you had acquired any information
respeeing the line of the Notth Kent Railway which induced
you to give it the preference?—Certainly not.
Was it then the character that it bore in the market gene-
rally, and with the public at large, which induced you to prefer
iiie'inhcrOtYaliathlthrokegeg—A3StitC2Pon the adviee of a
You took that sort of advice which any person may legi-
timately take who goes into the market and buys shares?—
Precisely.
And that advice you consider to have been fairly given ?
Yes. I pledge myself, knowing what the Committee cannot
know, but what I am sure they will be satisfied of before the
inquiry is concluded—l am content to let the issue rest upon
this, with reference to any improper advantage that I may
have derived, that I was as fully justified in buying North
Kent shares as I should have been in buying Yorkshire shares,
where the Ordnance have no property at all. lam content to
rest my whole case upon the Committee coming to that
opinion when they know how the business of the Ordnance is
transacted.
Mr. DUNCOMBE— flow many members is the Board of
Ordnance composed of?—Three ; the Master-General is not
a member of the Board ; we never see the Master-General.
The surveyor-general, Colonel Peel ; the clerk, Captain Bel-
-1
dere ; and the storekeeper, myself, are the three members of
the Board of Ordnance.
Have you Roy voice in anythieg which is proposed to the
Board?—Many things; everything but military questions.
The Master-General distinctly reserves, and states to the mili-
tary authority that he does, in those cases, act for himself ; I
believe you will find a minute to that effect. All cases of
contract, store cases, many of
all commissariat cases, all
which must occur, and various other things, of course come
before the Board, and each member of the Board has a voice..
If there is a difference of opinion in the Bs
at oard, does the mad
-
jority decde?—Yes ; I have been four year the Board, ari
there never has been a difference of opinion coming to a
Id vhiasvi oen
b,
ectern ani ynt hfoi aopofitnhtlterinid'n,gstinocewhlahtainveaybebeen etahlelerde ;a
years ; I never miss, and I have not been out of towna during
those four years for four weeks, and I have never
difference.
Supposing it is proposed to carry
a railway across the Ord-
e members of
nance property, and a difference arises among th
the Board whether any consent on the part of the Board shall
be given to that railway, whether they shall appear as consent-
ing or dissenting parties ; how will that question be decided ?
—I answer distinctly that the case cannot occur.
That is not a military question ?—lt is considered so; in a
certain sense it is not, but it is so, practically considered ; and
it never could occur, it never does occur, because all those
questions are referred to the Master-General.
Sir C. DOUGLAS—Any railway which Witilthrouffh Ord-

~---.

nance property would be under the military stvevel

_
Master-General ?—Yes.
And would not come before the Board?—No.-

Mr. TANCRED-Mr. Hignett says, " On th e 30ti, of May
the loar.l ordered me to have a meeting of the militar; officers
with the solicitor, myself, and then on the it fonday following
we met near the Committee-room, in an ante •room, and dis-
cussed the matter, and on the 3d of June I made my report re-
commending the stations ;" did you not take that report into
your consideration ?--Certainly not ; we referred it to the

Master- General.
Then it passed merely ministerially through your office ?
Clearly. I have endeavoured to explain that no one case of that
sort ever came before the Board for their consideration. We
referred it to the Master-General.
He says, " The minute submitting this to the Master-Gene-
ral is signed by Mr. Bonham and Captain Boldero ?"—That is
exactly bearing out my point; that minute is submitted to the
Master-General.
Does not that minute contain a general approbation or disap-
probation ?—Certainly not.
Mr. SHERIDAN—What is the nature of the report submitted to
the Master-General where do you make alterations or amend-
ments or suggestions ?—There are various questions of course
upon which we make communications to the Master-General ;
it is rather difficult to answer that question. In fact, upon many
points of the general details of the Board the Master-General
would rather require us to give an opinion : for example, as to
the conduct of officers in various things. Very recently there was
the case of a gentleman in one of the Arsenals whose conduct
was complained of ; we referred it to the Master-General ; we
thought it wiser to refer it to him ; and the Master-General sent
it back to us, and stated he would be glad to have our opinion
upon it; but upon military questions we never (I state that
generally and broadly) presume to give an opinion to the
Master General—and all railway'questions are considered under
that category of military questions—and we never presume
therefore to form an opinion; and I will venture to say that,
having the documents before you, you will not find an opinion
in any case offered by the Board to the Master-General upon
military subjects ; but at the same time this will be much
more satisfactorily explained by others ; and I do hope that
you will have Mr. Byham, who has been in the office for half a
century, or the Master-General; these gentlemen will tell you
the routine of the office. _ _ _

Mr. PAKINGToN—Upon a railway question, after the Mas-
ter- General has given his opinion,,is that opinion submitted to
the Board, or is his opinion final ?—Final ; it is never submitted
to the Board. . .

Mr. T. EGERTON—Your duty is merely to transmit it to
the parties ?—Exactly ; and the answers to those three com-
peting
lines were sent to the solicitors of the different com-
panies; to Mr. Fearon, the solicitor of one ; to Mr. Stephens,
the solicitor of the other ; arid to the solicitor of the Croydon ;
we never offered our opinion upon it.
Mr. ROEBUCK—So that if, in your opinion, one of the rail.
ways was a very mischievous one, and the other a very good
one, that could make no differende ; you could express no poi-
Rion ?—lt would be totally out of my power to express any of-
ficial opinion. I might out of doors, if I was fool enough to
criticise what had been done, express an opinion.
Mr. VERNON—Is the decision of the Master- General upon
the point submitted to him known to other persons as soon as
the members of the Board ?—Yes, because to other parties in-
terested it must be communicated.

Mr. LIDDELL—Jn your official capacity, as a functionary of
the Board of Ordnance, would it be possible fur you to pro-
mote the interests of this railway or that railway at the Board
of Ordnance ?—Clearly impossible. That answer I give most
distinctly, and I abide by it, always supposing that you will
take care care to have the parties connected with the Ordnance
before you to examine them.

Mr. TANCRED—The Master-General does not act, except
through reports ?—Not except through reports, with the single
exception of the case I alluded to, of the officer, whose con-
duct was brought before us. I have not occasion to see the
Master-General for seven or eight months ; the clerk of the
Ordnance has occasion to see him on many points. I believe
he has occasion to consult him upon the question of the har-
bours of refuge. That is a case on which I know nothing ; and
his seeing him is, I believe, rather with a view to questions
coming before the House of Commons, that the clerk of the
Ordnance should be prepared to answer any question that may
wise. But they are Master-General's questions entirely; and
unless it could be supposed that the Master •General was likely
to take my opinion upon a military point, it is totally impossible
that I could have the slightest influence, or indeed any member
of the Board, in the case of any single railway.
CHAIRMAN—WiII you turn your attention to a letter dated

" Office of Ordnance, the 24th of June" (the letter being shown
to the witness.) That
,letter, signed by Mr. Hignett, the
solicitor of the Ordnance, states :—" 1 am directed to add, that
the Company are not to vary the level of the railway by raising
the same ; but that the Master-General and Board consent to
any necessary deviation of the level of the railway by lowering
the same." Had the consent of the Master-General been

formally obtained at that time?—l believe I can give infor-
mation upon that. The question was raised before the Par-
liamentary Committee whether the Master-General's consent
had been really given. 1 think a letter was sent up to Mr.
Byham, Secretary of the Board, to know whether the
Master-General's consent had been given or not. Mr.
Byham went down accordingly, and was examined before
the Committee : and he stated that the papers had been
sent to the Master-General, but his consent had not been
formally received. It was the board day, otherwise I
should not have known anything about it. Colonel Peel
and myself were at the Board when Mr. Byham re-
turned from the Committee. The moment he came into
the room, a paper was sent up by Mr. Elliott, the chief
clerk in the Master-General's department, a different depart-
ment from the Board of Ordnance, containing the Master-
General's report, and Mr. Byham said, " I am very sorry that
this did not arrive before I went ; for being called upon, I
stated, that the consent had not arrived, for we had sent to
the clerk for it, and it had not arrived ; and it now appears
that Mr. Elliott received it last night, and had not sent it up
before I went." We told him that all he had to do was to

forward it to the Committee that day. Indeed that was his
own suggestion. He said, " The best thing I can do is to send
this to the Committee." We said, " Certainly ;" and it was
sent to the Chairman of the Committee, Mr. Lascelles, upon
that day. The Committee was up ; it had adjourned at two
o'clock ; and the following morning, the first step that the
Chairman of the Committee took was to read the report of the
Master-General of the Ordnance.
Could the solicitor of the Ordnance, without your know-
ledge, write a letter, stating that the Master-General had
consented to a variation of the levels, without the formal
consent of the Master-General ?—Certainly, without my
knewlerlge ; he was instructed to prepare this; he would not
come to the Board upon it, or have any communication with
the Board.
Mr. ROEBUCK—What is the meaning of the words, " The
Master-General and Board consent ?"—Those words you will
find always used ; in the same way as you have an official
seal, so you have the terms, " the Master-General and Board
consent," to everything.
Then the Board really have nothing to do with it ?—The
Board really and truly have nothing to do with all these ques-
tions ; but I apprehend generally, in any formal consent to the
conveyance of property, or anything else, they put " the
Board" as part of the formal words ; but it is, in fact, the
Master-General in military cases.
Do not you think that out of doors that is understood to
mean the Board of Ordnance 7—No, I should think not ; but
if you consider that it is so, it is certainly desirable that you
should have information upon that from a higher authority
than I can pretend to be, or a more disinterested one ; that you
should in that way obtain accurate information ; but the party
to decide in questions of this kind is the Master-General; but
the words must be used on all occasions in every lease, and so
on, " The Master-General and the Board of Ordnance."
Mr. TA NCRED—In the letter of the 10th of June there is
the same expression, "The Master-General and Board of
Ordnance being of opinion that the two stations for the Lon-
don, Chatham, and North Kent Railway," and so on ; you
have nothing to do with that ?—No.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—The Board of Ordnance are only instru-
ments ?—They are only instruments, but they are necessary in-
struments.
Mr. ROEBUCK—If they were efficient, as they are supposed
to be efficient out of doors, what would be the result of any
one member of the Board being known to be a large share-
holder in any railway passing through Ordnance property ?
I hardly know how I can answer that question ; I understand
what it is intended to convey, but I hardly know how to
answer it.

CHAIRMAN—Do you not think that any member of the
Board of Ordnance balding shares in a railway where the con-
sent of the Master-General and Board of Ordnance would be

necessary, would convey the impression that the consent of the
Board would be obtained, and increase the chances of that line
passing ?—I must leave every gentleman to answer that ques-
tion ; all I can say i., that I, as a member of the Board, con-
sidered myself as much entitled to buy shares in the North
Kent Railway as I should in any Oxford Railway. I may be
wrong, but that is my impression.
Mr. ROEBUCK—You came to that conclusion from the Board
being not really efficient, but merely nominal ?—Yes.
Mr. LIDDELL—NominaI so far as these points are con-
cerned ?—Exactly.
Upon military questions you are a nominal Board, but upon
all other questions an effective Board ?—Yes.
Mr. HAYTER—WouId not the knowledge on the part of the
public that any members of the Board of Ordnance were
holders of shares in one of the lines passing through Ordnance

property, create an undue prejudice against a rival line which
had no such advantage ?—ln the first place, I do not know that
when a person buys shares in any line it will be publicly known
what shares he has.

Do you think that it oozes out through the brokers ?
Possibly.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—ShouId you think it right on the part of
the Master-General to have shares in the North Kent Rail-
way ?—Certainly not.
Mr. LlDDELL—Because the Master-General is the person
to pronounce upon the adoption or rejection of the line ?—He
has the absolute power in his own hands, and therefore, of
course, he should not hold shares.
Mr. Du NCOMBE—What is the great use of this Board under
these circumstances ?—ln the first place, the Board transact all

contracts and commissariat business of every sort, and business
connected with landed property. We are, in a word, if I may
use the expression nhie),, 74, ipcd, bv-oex....Id.,•WCAV Vat, 'WU,
nance their supplies of arms, clothing, and various things. The
contracts are all made by tender, and they are made through
the Ordnance.
Why should not your decisions equally extend to matters con-
nected with railways ?—Simply because they are military ques-
tions; and the Master-General, who is always a high military
authority, decides them ; and the members of the Board of
Ordnance are not supposed to be military men.
With the exception of two, the other two are military men ?
—Generally, they are.
Mr. W. PATTEN—Two of the members at present are mili-
tary men ; but, on a late occasion, two out of the three were
not military men ?—I should say that there is never more than
one civilian at the Board ; at least, so far as lam able to speak
to that; there is a great deal of business for a civilian.
Mr. LIDPELL—During the time that Lord Mulgrave was
Master-General of the Ordnance, Mr. Ward was Clerk to the
Ordnance for many years?—He was.
Mr. SHERIDAN—Were Mr. Hignett's letters submitted to
you before they were forwarded; for instance, this letter of
the 10th of June ?—No, that would not be submitted to us ;
Mr. Hignett receives instructions from the Master-General ;
the Master- General approves of the proposition, and sends it
to the Board " approved" so and so. I believe you have the
original paper, which would show it better than I can.
Then it is rather incorrect for Mr. Hignett to say, " the
tanned and other railway works at that spot are to be executed
to the satisfaction of the Board ;" he does not there mention
the Master-General?—But " the Board" means the Master-
General.
Mr. Vgat.rort-1 suppose that your attentions was more
directed to the merits of the North Kent Railway in consequence
of the communications which have been made on the subject,
and which had been brought under your knowledge in the pro-
gress of the applications to the Board ?.—No, certainly not ; I
should rather say that my opinions as to the North Kent Rail
way were derived from one who is not a member of the Board,
but who is a personal friend of mine. I again repeat what
must sound very extraordinary, that I am persuaded, with re-
ference to this railway, I never read a single paper, for I was
not called upon to give an opinion • and therefore it was no use
for me to read any of the papers. I have plenty of occupation.
Mr. LIDDELL—Has the Board of Ordnance always been
composed of the same °facers who now compose it, a surveyor,
a clerk, and a storekeeper ?—yes ; they may be military men,
or naval men, Or civilians; but there would not be more than
one civilian at the 511“113 tirep j 010414 think.