The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-25 00:00:00

which the various clauses would be reconsidered. At the same
time he did think that the Bill, even as it stood, contained se-
veral provisions which should not only have the effect of law
in Ireland, but which should also be enforced in Scotland and
in England.—( Hear, hear.) It was a Bill founded upon jus-
tice and fairness, and so far from setting the tenant against
the landlord, it would render the position of each still more
satisfactory.—( Hear.) He would not detain the House fur-
ther, and would not have done so even now, but for the obser-
vations of the Noble Marquis who had just left the House, but
to ,whom he would say that he hoped not only to see this mea-
sure carried for Ireland, but also a similar one for England and
Scotland. —( Hear.)
Lord MONTEAGLE said he would occupy the House but
a very [few minutes. He was ready to admit that the present
position of the tenantry of Ireland was such as demanded Par-
liansentary interference. He was ready to admit that there
was a vast mass of the tenant population in Ireland in very
great distress, and even destitution; but, admitting all this, he
would ask, did this Bill propose a remedy for the mischiefs
complained of? He had heard reasons adduced for sending
the Bill to a Committee; but, in his opinion, the very same
reasons had been given for not adopting that course.—( Hear,
and a ) Not only was this Bill not in consonance with
the principles of the law, but it would not even be tolerated in
Prigland. Thus much for the landlord. He would now ad-
dress a few words in reference to the tenant; and he spoke
under correction of the Noble Lord at the head of the Com-
mission in Ireland. There was a great spirit of im-
provement now afloat in that country.—( Hear.) And of all
countries in the world where the principle of agricultural
improvement could be effected by chemical and scientific in-
ventions, Ireland was the most adapted for the experiment ; but
this Bill would go far to check and impede that improvement
already commenced by these means there.—( Hear, hear.)
Ireland was divided into small parcels of land called, by cour-
tesy, " farms"' in that country, but which would here require
a new name to be invented for them. Drainage was prt posed
to be carried on in one of these parcels, and the water was to
be drawn off and collected; but where was it to go? Where
was the water to flow? or, into what channel was it to be di-
rected ? The proposition was an absurdity, and affecting to
encourage, would be the very means of preventing an effi-
cient system of drainage. At present a good feeling was spring-
ing up between landlords and tenants in Ireland for the purpose
of effecting agricultural improvements on the estates.
Lord STANLEY—This Bill will not interfere with them.

Lord MONTEAGLE felt assured it would stop all such at-
tempts ; there were systems not susceptible of compulsion, and
the interposition of Acts of Parliament, so far from stimulating,
too frequently checked exertion. Southey had describe Ke-
hama as capable of assumingnine characters at once ; but the
commission that had inquired into the condition of the landlord
and tenant in Ireland had proposed that no commissioner should
undertake the duties of adjudicating the rights of property of
the whole of that country. A country of 20,000,000 of acres
was to be brought under the review of one commissioner ; to
such a provision he objected, and the Government at least
ought to be invested with some responsibility as to the conduct
and efficiency of its commissioner. He admitted much might
he done for the Bill in Committee on its details, but would he
be discharging his duty if he sent it to Committee before he
saw any prospect of its being amended there ?—( Cheers.) He
for one would not advance any measure sub siientio, of whose
benefits he entertained a doubt. Disappointment and injustice
had been the chief sources of calamity to Ireland, and this Bill
would but excite hopes and fears in Ireland, the former never
to be realized, the latter unfortunately too-well grounded. The
only consolation perceptible in the Bill was the words " consoli-
dated fund," hence it appeared that all expenses created by the
working of the measure would fall upon England. He could
not imagine how any Noble Lord, cognisant of the state of Ire-
land and its existing condition, as respected the rights of land-
lord and tenant, could, doubting the efficiency of the Bill, give
his support to its second reading. Such a man might sleep
upon his pillow that night in peace, but he could not see how that
course was consistent with his duty either to himself or to the
country.—( Cheers. )
The Earl of DEVON did not ground his support of the pre-
sent measure upon the principle propounded by the Noble
Lord (Monteagle), who had just sat down, that it implied an
entire distrust of the Irish landlord, and he :should be reluctant
to appear as a supporter of theoßill pledged to such an opinion.
Although lie was aware of what improvements might be ex-
pected from the Irish landlords, he also knew that there were
many others from whom no co-operation could be expected by
the tenant; but he concurred with the Noble Lord (Mont-
eagle) opposite, that entertaining the strong opinion he did,;the
only course was to oppose the Bill. The selection of evidence
under the Committee was supposed to:have been partial ; many
had said that being composed of five Irish landlords is recom-
mendation would favour that class ; again it had been said that
the interest of the landlord had been sacrificed to that of the
tenant ; he felt surprised at such conflicting accusations and
denied them both. No one would have introduced such a
measure from a theory of preconceived opinions, but from a
firm conviction of the benefits that it would entail upon Ireland.
One of the great objects of this 13111 was to bring into opera-
tion the labour of the working classes of Ireland, as for, from
four to five months in the year, the agricultural labourers of
that country were not employed. He beseeched their Lord-
ships, in discussing this Bill, to consider the great difference
beta een the condilon of Ireland as compared with England.
In the former country there was a great deficiency of capital,
with a superabundance of labour, which did riot exist in the
latter country, and hence a measure of this kind was necessary
to protect those who might make improvements in their laud,
and to encourage them to greater exertions. Great allowance
should be made for the difference in the condition of the two
countries, and they should legislate accordingly. It would be
necessary for him to go into the large blue-book before him,
even at the risk of tiring their Lordships, in order to show the
exact condition of Ireland, and the necessity for the improve.
meets proposed in the measure under consideration. He denied
that. the proposed Bill would interfere with the
landlords in making improvements on their estates. In his
opinion it would rather facilitate their opportunities than other-
wise. There were large tracts of land in Ireland which would
soon be brought into cultivation and made profitable to both
landlords and tenants, if this measure were carried into a law.
The Commissioner's Report, so far front deprecating improve-
ments by landlords, expressed a strong opinion that the land-
lords should make every improvement they could in land, as far
as it was practicable ; yet whatever the landlords might do to
this effect, the Commissioners were of opinion that much in
the way of improvement would still be left undone, and hence
it was, for the object of inducing the tenants to take up and
carry out such improvements, that the measure before the
House was recommended. The Noble Lord here read several
extracts from the report to the foregoing effect, com-
menting on them as he went along. Their Lord-
ships would recollect that a measure siniilar to this
in effect was introduced into the other House of Parliament by
Mr. S. Crawford, before the issuirg of the Commission. That
was in 1833, and the measure was then supported by Mr.
Wyse and Mr. Lynch, two gentlemen, than whom better land-
lords did not exist in Ireland. The principle was therefore
not new. 'lndependent of this, he might say, that it was based
upon the most carefully collected evidence. The number of
witnesses examined by the commissioners, in all, were 303.
Of these forty-seven were landlords ; 128 farmers ; the re-
/minder were undated. Out of this number filty-five consi-
eered the right way to protect the tenants was by giving them
'eases; while 146 decidedly gave it as their opinion that the
beat mode of securing the tenant for the capital and labour he
might expend on his farm, would be by a system of compensa-
tion similar to that proposed in the present Bill. These 146
were independent of many others,. who gave a more qualifies
opinion in favour of this plan of comp nsation.
He would read extracts from the evidence of several of the
most important witnesses examined, to bear him out in the
statement he had made. The Noble Lord then read the ex-
tracts to which he referred, from the evidence of Mr. Sharman
Crawford, Mr. Balfe, and Mr. Buroes; the former an exten-
sive landed proprietor in the north of Ireland, and the other
two intelligent farmers, their evidence being to the effect that
interference between landlord and tenant on the subject of
compensation was absolutely necessary. The measure was one
which would secure both the property of the landlord and the
tenant—neither giving undue privileges to the one or to the
other. For many years there had existed a right, on tho part
of the tenants in Ireland, to take away, at the expiration of
their leases, the trees which they had planted during their
tenantry. As the stumps were f: equently left in the ground, it
deteriorated instead of improved. So that even at the present
moment the tenant might leave the land which he had occu-
pied in en injured instead of an improved state—whereas, under
the Bill, this would not be allowed, as conmenim ion from his
landlord would be secured to him for the improvements which
he had effected. It was only right that a landlord should not
have the power of suddenly ejecting a tenant who had effected
improvements on the land at his own expense, without making
hint that compensation to which he was entitled, and which, if
not afforded, might reduce him to a helpless state of poverty.
Then the impetus which would be given to the improvement of
the land under the security given to the tenant by the Bill
would call into use during at least five months of the
year, a great portion of the unemployed labour 'of Ireland.
Then the Bill would not interfere with the contracts between
landlords and tenants, only with those who would not enter into
any specific contracts with their tenants. He should like to
see contracts carried out to a greater extent than hitherto,
to see facilities afforded to those desirous of doing so, and that
means should be taken to have such contracts registered. Be-
sides, a tenant would feel greater ease when there was a fair un-
derstanding between him and his landlord. The Irish landlord
under the Bill would be placed in the voluntary position of an Eng-
lish landlord. Ha landlord would not place the necessary out-
house s, &c., on the land which he let, and the tenant was
compelled to do so at his own expense, he considered that a
reas)nable compensation should be secured to him by law, in
the event of his leaving the lar.d before he had derived suffi-
cient benefit from the outlay. He was, therefore, extremely
anxious that this Bill should be read a second time. When
it was in Committee, those minor alterations which Noble
Lords thought necessary, would, of course, be made.
Lord CAREW, who spoke in so low a tone that scarcely
a word he uttered reached the gallery, was understood to say
that he considered alterations by the tenants ought not to be
made without the consent of the landlord, but believing that
tenants were, in many instances, entitled to compensation, he
should not object to the second reading of the Bill.
Lord ESSEX said he was one of their Lordships who had
some property in Ireland, arid that he should not support the
second reading of the Bill if improvements were to be made
without the consent of landowners, or if the compulsory clauses
were retained.

The Marquis of SALISBURY would vote for the second
reading, reserving 10 himself the full power of voting against
any of its provisions in a future stage. A INoble Earl seemed
to avow that the Bill would be of no use, unless it contained
compulsory clauses. From this opinion he dissented, and
would hereafter express himself more fully on that head. If
his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies thought it
worth while to maintain the Bill without the compulsory
clause, he would support it, but otherwise he would be willing to
crush it on the second reading.
The Earl of RODEN would oppose the second reading of
the Bill, and would not support the principle of Government
interference between landlord and tenant. On behalf of the
teoantry of Ireland, as well as on behalf of the landed pro-
prietary, he would oppose the Bill on the second reading and
every other stage.
The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to say a few words
on the subject of the Bill. He was one of those who was op-
posed to the appointment of the Commission, not that he
doubted the diligence of the Noble Earl, but because he thought
it would raise expectations which could not be justified. He
thought it was better that the Government should have brought
in specific measures for the evils which existed in the landlord
and tenant system in Ireland, than such a sweeping and com-
prehensive measure. The Noble Earl (Devon) had not ans-
wered any of the objections which had been urged against the
Bill, and seemed to doubt whether it was carrying out the sug-
gestions in the Report of the Commission. The Government
ought to take upon itself the responsibility of the disappoint-
ment which would be felt in Ireland from the failure of this
Bill. Should his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) say that he
thought it probable no other measure could be brought forward
this session to remedy the evils which existed in the landlord
and tenant system in Ireland, he would vote for the second
reading. The position of the tenant in Ireland entitled
him to protection, and to that part of the Bill
he would give his unqualified support. The Bill
in its present shape was obviously impracticable, and
he thought it had better be deferred until the other measures
to which reference had been made were introduced. By
putting forward this Bill against the practical opinion of all
parts of Ireland, they would oppose the feelings of the whole of
the country. It was wholly with this desire that he had said
those few words, and he did hope that the Bill would be de-
ferred until the other Bills of which he had spoken should be
introduced.

Lord CAMPBELL said that the aw of England was de•