The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

tlenan concluded by moving that this linti,e regards with 1
regret and apprehension the state of affors it New Zealand ;
and that those feelings are greatly ageraveted bs the walet of
any sufficiernt evidence of a change io the penes' which has led
to such disastrous results. The Hon. Gentleman sat down
amidst continued cheering.
Mr. WARD seconded the motien.
Mr. G. W. HOPE said he would first address himself, in
replying to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, to the personal
matter contained in this question. He felt now, as on for-
mer occasions, that Lord Stanley had, from the beginning to
the end of this matter. been much aspersed. The first charge
brought against his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) by the Hon.
and Learned Member (Mr. C. Buller) was, that of not
submitting the instructions to the New Zealand Company
which had been dispatched to the colony nit the 7th of June.
In reply to this he might say that the minutes on which the
instructions to the colony were based had been submitted to a
private meeting of gentlemen connected with the Company, and
they were agreed to by them. The dispatches were founded on
these minutes, and the charge of bad faith in reference to this
matter was therefore entirely unfounded. ishithiog was kept
back or hell private from the deputation of gentlemen who had
applied to the Colonial-office for information ou the subject.
This explanation he deemed quite satisfaeto -y, and ho should
be surprised, if any member of the deputati eie could be found
who would deny the statement of what took planer. There was
one Gentleman present, who was a member of that deputa-
tion, and who would much astenish him ( Alr. Hope) if he
denied the truth of this.—( Hear, hear.) He had now dis-
posed of this, one of the greatest charges against his Noble
Friend. And what did these deputations, of which so much
was said, advise? They advised that a kind and cordial spirit
should be manifested in all transactions with the natives, con-
sistent with the interests of the colony. The lion. Member
here read an extract from the instructions to Captain Fitzroy,
to the effect that there should be, as far a- practicable, an
amicable settlement of all points pending between the natives
and the New Zealand Company, and that he (the Governor)
should prevent anything like exorbitant demands, either on the
part of the Company or the native chiefs. There had been no
deceit, therefore, manifested here.
Mr. C. BULLER—I did not say deceit. I said we had
been kept in the dark.
Mr. HOPE—The Hon. and Learned Member says he did
not charge his Noble Friend with deceit, he only charged
him with keeping the Company in the dark regarding these in-
structions. That this was not the case he thought he had al-
ready shown the House—( Hear, hear)—though. on this point,
his Noble Friend had suffered attack and obi ,guy as if he had
done something highly derogatory to the interests and privi-
liges of the Company.—( Cheers. ) He could further pint to
the instructions given to the Comeany by the Government, as
showing that there had been a de-ire to meet the bona fide
claims of the Company, as far as it was consistent with the obli-
gations and honour of the country. '1 he Hon. and Learned
Member only read a portion of the instructions to the House, to
which he objected. He did trot read that which referred
to what he (Mr. Hope) had just adduced. He
would, therefore, read that portion of the instructions,
to show the House that they bore out the construction he had
put upon them. The Hon. Gentleman read a passage from
she instructions recommending that it was necess try that effec-
tual steps should be taken to settle amicably the claims of the
Company consistently with the rights of the natives.—( Hear.)
Before those instructions were disptitched to the colony a depu-
tation waited upon his Noble Friend, and he (Lord Stanley)
made no hesitation in communicating the nature of the dis-
patch. Yet he was charged with keeping back information—a
charge which he must say was most unjust.—( Hear, hear.)
Complaint had been made by the Company on an award being
recommended that its acceptance would place them in a worse
position than otherwise, with regard to the natives. In 1843
this was the course resolved on. It was then, in instructions
Dent out to Capt. Fitzroy, stated that he should co-operate
with the agents of the Company in arranging with the natives
about the sale of lands. In accordance with those instructions
Capt. Staines was appointed as Commissioner ; and he would
read a portion of a dispatch of the 19th of July, on the result of
this appointment. The extract read by the Hon. Member was
to the effect that in every arrangement about the lands with
the natives, the Company, in every case in which there was any
doubt about title, should have sufficient compensation for all
improvements that had been effected.--( Hear, hear.) The
Commissioners acted in the spirit of this instruc-
tion, and proceeded to award fairly between the natives and
the Company, the Government considering that this was the
course best calculated to settle these unfortunate differences.
The Hon. and Learned Member, in describing the state of the
colony, quoted entirely from a letter of Mr. Cowley, but had
not referred to other important letters and communications
that had reached this country. He had not referred to the
letters of Lloyd's agents and others, who had at least equal
means of information. He had limited himself to the com-
munication of one man, in order to draw a frightful picture.—
( Hear, hear.) And what he had read was more calculated to
show the character of the settlers in the north and north-west
of the colony, than to prove that there was any great danger.
Sailors and the youths that had been sent out from ParkhurstPe-
nitentiary had been represented as exciting disorder in the colony,
but in these statements he believed there was no little exagge-
ration in what had been said about the subordination of these
parties, and employed to excite sympathy, and to spread alarm
as to the con lition of the colony. These youths from Park-
hurst, of which complaint had been made. had been placed in
that penitentiary in order to reclaim them from their bad habits,
and they Were sent out there, as it was not considered safe to turn
them nut loose here, in order to give them a chance of escaping
bad habits. That very day his Noble Friend had received dis-
patches from Auckland, dated the 25th, and stating that disaf-
fection only extended to a portion of the tribes, and that there
was strong hope that all the difficulties would pass over without
any serious commotions. A letter had also been received which
stated that since the last instructions from the colony the North
Star had arrived with 200 men, which arrival hail done much
to calm the minds of the settlers, and that the news from
the disturbed districts represented matters as much quieter
than they were. This dispatch was from no agent of the Govern-
ment, but from a gentleman who stated in a very independent
'nastier what he saw. But the Hon. and Learned Member
says that his latest date from New Zealand is of the 28th ;
now he (Mr. Hope) had information a day later. In a news-
paper, published there on the 29th, which he had received, it
was stated that the 200 troops had arrived in the North Star
steam-packet, accompanied by six field pieces; that the forts
had been placed in a proper state of defence ; that block-houses
had been erected, and every step taken to place the settlement
in a proper state of defence.--(Hear, hear.) It was further
stated that there was an improved feeling of security in the
colony, and that the natives had made no further opposition.
He would state this to the House, in opposition to Mr. Cor-
mack's statement, which had been adduced by the Hon. and
Learned Member. But it was said that, in furthering and pro-
tecting the interests of Auckland. they had neglected Wellington.
This was not true, for as soon as the troops arrived from Sydney a
portion were immediately sent off to Weilnetoii, in order to
protect the interests of that settlement. It was not right,
therefore, to charge the Government with culp dale neglect.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman co:nplaiaed of the military ,!
force placed at the disposal of New Zealand. Why, when the
Noble Lord the Member for the City of London was at the
head of the Colonial Department, and application was made to
him for a military force for the colony, a hundred men was the
total force allowed them; and when the colonists complained
that the force was too little, they were told they couldhe sup-
plied with no more.
Lord J. RUSSELL—At that time.
Mr. HOPE—The military force had since averaged from
150 to 290 men. The available force in the Australian colo-
nies altogether had formerly been 1,609. In 1843. it was
2,400 ; and now there would be an available force of 4,000
men ; that was, whenever the regiinents on their progress from
India and this country had arrived there. This, he believed,
was a competent force to maintain the authority of the Queen
in the colony; and to defend the settlers in the islands from
the attacks of the natives. There was, however, no proof
that any confederation of the natives would take place—that
they would unite against the settlers and require any great
demonstration of military power. The native tribes had
never yet united, nor, in his opinion, would they do so,
unless something was done to give them strong cause to com-
bine their interests and sympathies in a combined system. This
brought him to the point that the acts of the natives had re-
sulted from the policy of the Government ; that the disaffec-
tion in the colony was to attributed to this al ,tie. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had quoted Mr. Busby in support of
this opinion, and yet that gentleman. in another port inn of this
statement, attributed the difficulties which had arisen to the
disposition of the natives to deny the sovereignty of this country,
and to overthrow the authority of her Maje-ty. It was said
that Captain Fitzroy had been supported by his Noble Friend,
each as no Governor was ever supported. New he wanted to
know the authority for such a statement. was not the case.
So far from its being so, he had been called into question on many
material points. On his financial procesdings, in the sale of
lands, in the raising of the militia, in the expenses of his Go-
vernment, and in forming laws ny his enuileil in a hurried and
unsatisfactory manner,—on all these points he had been called in
question. With regard to Mr. Shoulbread, his secretary, to
w hom reference had been made, he had, no doubt, beers charged
with malversation in his office ; but he was bound to state
. that upon an investigation taking place there were ne grounds
for the charge. Mr. Shoulbread resigned his office, as Captain
Fitzroy had expressed himself that lie hail no confidence in
him, yet he (Mr. Hope) must say he saw no reason whatever
for this course. It was herd that a gentleman', prospects in
life should be ruined upon a mere sutpicion, which was not
founded in truth, and he had recently been appointed to
the Governorship in the West Indies. The Honour-
able and Learned Member next complained of the place
where the capital had been fixed. In answer to that he might
refer to instructions sent out by the Noble Lord the Member
for the City of London ( Lord John Russell) to Captain Hob-
son. Captain Holison was instructed to fix the capital in the
territory belonging to the Government, and not in that of the
Company. The Hon. Member then reed an ex:net from the
instructions in question to that effect. It 'Niro clear, therefore,
that Captain Hobson went out with instructions to fix the
capital in Government land. Auckland ices in c msequence
selected, and he was bound to say it was the best that could be
selected, for the purposes of trade and commerce. To abandon
that, as had been proposed, would have been, in his opinion, a
most fatal and ruinous course. The municipal institutions had
also been referred to, and complaints had been
,„,d, that they were not assimilated to those
of England. This was never intended. The municipal dis-
tricts were tracts of country mapped out for the purposes of
colonial Government, and had no analogy to such institutions as
those that went by the same namo in England. The Hon.
Gentleman then briefle referred to the charge against the
Government of imposieg a tax upon the Company's settlers,
and justified the course which had been taken in that matter by
reference to what had been done in Canada under similar
. This, however, he considered had been fully
met incircumstances the previous debate, without his going further into the
objection at present. It had been shown
,h that there
been no breach of honesty and good fait tovvards the
colony or the New Zealand Company by the Government..
There was one other matter, to which the Hon. and Learned
Member referred, and or' which the Hoe. M.. fiber for Lam-
beth seemed to lay considerable emphasis on a previeue occa-
sion—he meant the vote given by himself (Mr. Hope) in the
ti7ommittee of 1840. The question, as it seemed to have some
importance attached to it, he should be happy to refer to.
It was, whether it was a wise course to recourse the indepen-
dence of New Zealand? and he was of tho same opinion
now, for he thought it a most unwise course. But rise.v the
Hen. Gentleman turned round, and said, y en are inconsistent,
you supported the independence of New Zealand then, and
why turn round now, and advocate a different policy ? He
could only repeat, that he was still of the same opinion, but
that independence having been arenewledged, it would now
be still snore unwise to adopt a different system. He now came
to the conclueion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's address,
and what the Hon. and Learned Member distingui-hed
as "ring dropping." Those words might be used in a
very extended sense —( Laughter )—and he believed that thellon.
and Learned Member meant as much by them, namely, to ob-
tain for the Company itself the land they wished to become en-
tiled to. That was the principle of the policy which alerts
pressed upon them, and yet the Hon. and Learned Member
said, strangely enough, that no change of policy had occurred.
He ( Mr. }lope) would say this, that if the Government were in
error in the policy they had adopted, they had to blame the po-
licy of the Noble Lord the Member for London, who had pre.
ceded them.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The instructions to the Governor
were different.
Mr. HOPE—The Noble Lord said the instructions were
different. He would not, then, go into the instructions given
by the Noble Lord, but if it were necessary to do so, he should
be enabled to show that his policy went to the very principle
that the natives had a right in the land, and that the Crown had
no right to dispossess them of it. If Hon. Members would