The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

( what he (Mr. T. Duncornhe)'Wanted was, an account of
1 the sums paid to persons employed by the Morning
Herald and the Standard newspapers. Ross,
stated, • in- his examination, • that -he would not
have i.t known. • for 50,0001. that he went
to Ireland as a Government agent; he said he would only
have gone as a newspaper reporter. On being asked:if
he would have gone for 75,0001, he said, " Well, I think
I would;" but he would not under 75,000/. haVe acknow.
• ledged to the Irish people that he wits the-agent of . the
Right Hon. Gentleman.-,-(Laughter.). Did the Right
Honr.Baronet allude to the. meeting. of 'his (Mr. Dun,
combes),constituents which he-attended last-night? It
ti a possihle that 'there might have been a Government
reporter there—(Laughter)—but, at all events, whoever
gave the Right Hon. Baronet his information of what ,
passed there, it was very,had. That meeting was called
to take into Consideration the.best _measures for exores-
sing their opinions 'in favour of the motion which his
Hon. Friend the Member, fel. Rochdale was ,abont ..t6
bring baire the House.. It-was true also that the Meet-
ing had expressed in strong.. terms' 'their unabated
confidence in • the, humble individual who vas 'then ad-
dressing them.--(taitghter.) The meeting last night •
had not the slightest reference to any-other objects con-
templated in his motion, . and he thought - that such an
insinuationNas most uncaniid: The Right Hon.:Baronet
had accused him (Mr. Duncombe) of acting is-, a
public prosecator.. He should pursue the same.
course whislOgcarways had done, and whether it were
a. judge,
„ap.litry..) or even the Right . Ron. Baronet
hiinAlftjhek,bhAlil.yinsider it his. duty to bring any op- .
_presSion they, cfeMmit before thellouse.so long as
r'lieslP4looll _
='-'l-'l/W21111k13-Llt tiiirehld.:say a few words with respect
=to',tXe crefii.-61b1" 'fire Attorney-General for Ireland,
-that tifeirreakCin for 'refusing to give the names 'of the
witnesses was, -that dards had handed about Dublin
denouncing Mr.. flugliesitu aspyanfcl, an informer; but.
_the- House shbeld recollect than this had -not been done
t.until,,.4:4r,lliAghes`had:been'accused; of having committed
perjury-wsklinkhowingly he (Mr.:Bellew) would say,-
because all that °centred, with respect to
.Mr.gughes
was solely owing to the Crown Solicitor's conduct. He
would ask the. Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-
'General for Ireland, if he had received any explana-
tion ..;iupon this subject, as. a . sufficient time
had now,ela,psed since the conclusion of ' the debate.
He could only say that this was one of- the many-pro-
ceedings during the trial which had created an impres-
sion on .the minds of the people of Ireland, that from be-
ginning to end. there had not been 'fair play in the late
trials, and notwithstanding the opinions expressed on
the, other side of the House, that impression would con-
tinue. -• . - •

mission. As to the ten-gun brigs, he must say that he
thought they were a class of vessels very much maligned.
I,lsle had had several under his command, and he had
1 found them-very ,useful.. He- did not deny that 'many
ten-On brigs had been lost ; but he was convinced that
their IoSS was -attributable- to the deficiency of crews and
the want of mente,atterui to their sails ; although there
were cases in which theloss was clearly to be ascribed
to their being struck by lightning., There was a great
deal mere-saidthan there ought to be in. Order to-mal'e
a: row about these vessels. Certainly they were not yes-
sels that he (Sir_ George Ceckburn)admired—they were
not good saileri. However, they were getting rid of
them, and adding a class,of others to the navy which he
hoped would be faster, though he was pretty sure• they
-would not prove safer vessels.—(flear, hear.)
Capt. PECHELL explained. '
Sir ChARLES NAPIEIt said he thought it was a
matter -of great regret that when millions were being
voted away in that House there was always such a thin
.
attendance--there beiug sometimes, not more than forty
.I.leriihers present. He considered this circumstance a
serious reflection upon the, character of that• House—
. He' further:thought it- extremely odd that
the reporters, when these millions were being voted,.
also declined attendance, or, what N:4:as• pretty nearly the.
• same thing,: they ,shut' their books up immediately.—
(Loud langhter.) However, he should do his duty, and
leave the responsibility of this absence from the House
to the Members guilty of it. He wished on the present
occasion to say a few words on the subject of the vic-
tualling and the:paying of the Navy. First, to the pay-
it-lg.'''. hey paid a seamen for what was called the thir-
teen months in the year. Now, in his opinion, this was
a great absurdity, and the practice should at once be
abolished: A sailor did-not 'understand thirteen months
in the year, and lie would be much more satisfied if the*
Admiralty would changethe system, still giving, to him
of course the two pounds, for that amount to him was a
very great thing indeed. He would next go to the petty
Officers—sa class of men most necessary to keep up the
comfort, happiness, and• discipline of a ship, and there-
fore highly to be prized by any Government. If the
petty officers had been properly treated in earlier
_years
—if they had been better' paid and more respected, the
country would never. have heard of the mutiny. of
1798.• In the present day there was a good deal
that might be done for • this most . useful
class of men, and he was satisfied that even
on the ground of economy the Government would
lose nothing if they gave the second-class petty officers
one-half more than the seamen, and the first-class petty
officers double what the seamen 'received. , He should
mention that the seamen themselves could be made much
more satisfied if so much, were not drawn from them on
the voyage for slops, in order that; when they arrived at
home, they might have More to-draw. A remedy should
be applied here. He came next to the subject of boys ;
and he must say he could not agree in what had-fallen
from the Gallant Admiral opposite • (Sir George Cock-
burn.)• Boys were fit for sea when 98 pounds weight.
—(Laughter.) If they gotinto a good ship, with an active
and conscientious officer,, their manners, morals, and
education, were alike excellently attended to. At the
proper time they were taught to reef and steer, and to -
take-their part capitally in the whole work of the ship.
They were made first-class boys at 17, or what was gene•
rally termed " hobble-de-hoys," and then they came
home Ward. When they got ashore, the crimps pounced
upon • them, got them to bad houses, taught them to
chew tobacco, to smoke, to drink, to do everything, in
short, that was nasty and bad. This was the way to
ruin the poor lads, and just after such pains and care
had been, bestowed -on. them.. They were not old
enough for the :merchant,„-; service, and so they
were left to
:ramble about drenched with
every vice that.' could degrade them. In his
opiniori •GOverniment ought to take them on board
the flag-ships, in preferenee to taking new hands. In
this neglect of the boys 'he .feund one. of the main
causes which made sailors so careless in their after lives.
Next, he should allude to the pensioned seamen. Four-
teen years used to be the term in Which a sailor was
entitled to a pension—now it was. twenty-one. The
fourteen years ought, in his opinion, to have been kept
to,, for twenty-one 'years was too long for a seaman to
look forward to. Under present circumstances he would
not give both pension and pay; but the pay increased
by pension, which,,from time to time, might be increased
,also. For instance, the pay of a sailor was 18!.; but that
after .14 years he increased by pension to 25/. or so. In
a little while: he would increase this hum, and keep mo-
derately 'increasing if, thus not only securing present
good conduct, but inducing good men to remain in the
service. Next he should refer to the masters. Upon
this subject also he did not agree with the Gallant Ad-
miral opposite (Sir G. Cockburn).. Masters were not
brought up now in the merchant service, but in our own.
'He thought they ought to hold. out an encouragement
to their Lieutenants in the navy to qualify for masters,
and that might be done by giving them betterpay.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the items for
which this large sum Was to, be expended were not
placed clearly before the House. In the army esti-
'mates all was clear arid intelligible, but such was'not
the case in the navy,
After some few•observations from Mr, Tuffnell, Mr.
S." Herbert, Captain Dundas, and Captain Plumridge,
the vote was.agreed to. •
The next vote was 126;82a to defray the salaries of
the officers Connected with the Admiralty, and the'ex-
pense of the Admiralty office.
Mr: WlLtlAMS.suggested that it would be a great
improvement' if the. clerks in these departments were
required 'to work -mere hours a-day, and 'were better
paid. It would
.be -more satisfactory to the perions
employed, and 'the public service would be better
performed. '
:Captain ROITS Said that on a former evening it was
stated that the Government could on an emergency have
200 merchant steamers, and thus have the entire com-
mand. of the narrow. seas.- But he would ask whether
the Admiralty..could procure 200 naval officers, who
knew anything of steam-vessels, to command them ?
He believed that at this moment one half 'of' her
Majesty's steamers were commanded: by officers ,
who knew nothing whatever about steam-vessels
.or their • Machinery,. and were so • completely
dependent on the eneineers that they could not make
any • evolution withoutfirst consulting him, so
that they were the -servants of. the veisels, rather than
the commanders. The navy generally was not in the
state it ought to be. The French squadron on the coast
of 'Syria went through evolutions that 'could net be
executed by. our fleet. I3ut, if the Admiralty would
persist in employing old officers, who had been a quarter
of a century on the shelf, instead of active young
officerS,' it was impeassiblethat their ships could be well
commanded. It was owing to the great care the French'
Government took to have young and active officers that
their. ships were so well-managed. Bukkere, so great
was the preference given to old officers, that a young
. one was scarcely allowed to have anyopinion,at all. In
other situations a man was allowed to arrive, • at some
time or other, at' years Of discretion—(Laughter}-but,'
in the navy, 'he'was not considered worth anything till
he could neitherhear, see, nor chew her Majesty's biscuit.
"----(Great langhter.) He condemned the manner in
which a preference was given at the Admiralty to ships
of certain 'construction ; he once -commanded a 28-gun
frigate for four years, and, when he reported to the
Admiralty that she would make a very good merchant-
ship, but was a disgrace to a civilised . nation, as a
ship of wsr, he was 'told that all the previous
reports from captains of this class of vessels had been
'highly favourable; it was well known, in the service that
if itcaptain did not report well of a ship belonging to a
class in which the Admiralty took an interest, there was
an end of his 'prospects of future employthent.—(Hear,
hear from Sir C. Napier.) The same ships were re-
ported against by one other officer—Captain Dundas,
.the son of the First Lord of the Admiralty at the time-
-and he was written to by Mr. Croker, both publicly and '
privately, deprecating the course he had taken. But,
some time afterwards, when it, was found that the Ad-
miralty had ner longer any interest "in these veasels there.
was not a dissentient voice in the profession respecting
the bad qualities of these vessels. In the same manner
they must be cautious how they received all these re-
Ports about the Merit* of the Penelope, and other
steamers, and of the vessels of Captain Symonds. They
might believe as much of them as they liked ; and the
less they believed of them the better.—(Hear, hear.)
Every report from the Dockyards on vessels not built
-by themselves was not to be depended on ; tho build
of ships in the private yards •was much superior to that
of the naval yards: But though the navy surveyor and
navy builders hated each other like poison—(Laughter)
—yet they all Combined in condemning any vessel built
in the yards of Loud* tiverPool, and Isle of Wight;
_though they were as superior to the ships in her Majesty's
service, as Sir W. Symonds was to a working shipwright.
He contended that year after year the Board of Admi-
_ratty was in the habit of humbugging the House of
.Commons.--(Great laughter.). And the greatest use he
-could -be in the House was,' when he saw one of these
aneakingsjobs attempted, to lay it bare to them. He
repeated his condemnation of the 'continual preference
of old officers to young, ones,' and toncluded by' stating..
that when one of these valuable- old officers was sent to'
sea,. after. being 25 years on shore, the only hope was
that he
.would get a, good young commander or first-
lieutenant to take care of him, that he would held his
tongue .on ail occasions, and give good dinners to his
lieutenants and midshipmen, whenever he invited them
to his• table.—(Heari hear; and -laughter.)
Sir GEORGE COCIiBURN hoped that when
the Hon. and Gallant Member quoted • anything he had
said that he would quote him correctly. He had never
stated that a young officer was not to have an opinion.
What he. did say in, the debate the Hon. and Gallant
'Member had alluded:to was this, that having heard a
certain opinion expressed by a young officer he hoped
the. House would not refuse to listen to an old one. With
regard to the charges made by the Gallant Member he
- denied that they applied to the present Board of Ad-
• rniralty. He would defy any Board to take more pains
than it had done to improve the state of the navy. Ho.
defended- the surveyor of the navy (Captain- Symonds),
stating his conviction that the service was much
indebted to , him.—(Hetir, hear.) At the same
time he did not think his ships were perfect, and the Ad-
miralty were making every exertion to procure improve- •
ments on them.. They had selected the three most ta-
lented naval architects from the different yards, and.
sent them to"Chathara to make a scientific report on the
defects supposed to exist in these vessels. An elaborate,
Report h4dbeen presented to the Admiralty, pointing
out the detects, and stating the scientific reasons for.
them. _These three naval architects were now, employed.,
in constructing vessels according to their own plans, in
order to remedy these defects, and, if possible, to try .if
a perfect ship could not be. constructed. If the. Admi-
ralty had done so much in the short time it had been
appointed, it could not, be open to the charge-of. neglect-
• ing the state of the navy. Improvements were constantly,
- going on, and fifty years hence their ships might per-
haps,be a great deal better than they were at present.'
As to the Frefieh squadron getting under weigh in such
-superior'styWon the ersast of Siria,he had been assured
by the captain of the Asia that when in three
or four of these same French ships, they being all bow

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided—

For the motion
Againstit - 144

Majority against the motion —7l
LOCAL. POOR-LAW ACTS..

Mr. D. M‘LEAN wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Baronet the 'Home Secretary intended to refer
locat Poor-law ACts to a Select Committee ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that such was not his
ntention.

PM cf. fr !
..1 I.
- E
f 'ET N - lb6141)0w,
-ew.,---miAsS: C.

to thesame place, it-come orstohlew hard, and the Aga
was the only ship that ras able to get` out.-(I-Feat:')was very easy to getup in that House and make such
charges and assertions as these ; to say that our ships
were bad and our officers worse ; but he-,believed the
navy was just as able as ever to maintain ita-:superierity
over that of other nations. s -)
Sir T. TROUBRIDGE' contended that so fir from the
,navy being deteriorated, it was then better than ever it
. was ; there was less punishment, less deiertiOn, and the
men, as a class; were better educateds. There -was as
'good fishin the sea as ever came out'of
Captain PECHELL concurred with The Hon. and
Gallant Officer who last spoke.
,As to'the French squa
dron on the Coast of Syria, the superiority, of which had
been talked of, that very 'squadron' when recalled to.
France, was dispersed by a gale off the island of Corsica,
and before it made Toulon, exhibited suclist collection of
"lame ducks" aS had• scarcely ever been 'Witnessed.
He was gladto hear" the. Gallant Officer state his opinion
iti.the independent manner he .had done. ' He believed
the naval force of the country Was never in a 'better
ConditiOn generally, though_ there' might be details in
which. he differed with the Gallant Adrairal opposite.
He thought that they ought to look.weli.to the manner
in which they built their ships. No-vessel performed
better or greater service than the Waterwitch, • because
she_ had been built of good materials.' -He was- very well
satisfied-with the mode in which they Were-now'build-
ing their vessels, and he thoeght the Hon: 'and Gallant
Member for Westminster must -have alluded to
the ships which . had . been built 'some years
ago, when he complained of the manner
in which 'their vessels were built. He .coin-'
planned that Mr. Brunei had been placed over
the head of Mr. Smith, the inventorof the ,Archinsedean
screw,` in directing" the application of _that excellent in-,
vendors to the Rattler steamsvessel. The, speed of the
vessel,had lessened from ten to eight-- knot§ an- honr •
under the -superintendence of Mr. Brunel... He consi- •
dered it a great wrong. that these naval.officers.who held
appointments under the- Government should have their
half•pay stopped from them. lie had no, objection that.
the lion. and Gallant' Admiral apposite (Sir G. Cock-
burn) should receive .his Why not take the
opinion *of the Attornei-General and•Solicitor-General
as to their right to receive it? Was it not hard that
the-- Lieutenant-Governor . of Greenwich.,Hospital, Sir
Gordon,- who . had-. lost. a • limb. in. ,fighting for
his , country 'should have his half-pay , stopped
because' he held' 'that situation'? --(Hear,. bear.)
Another great hardship. was,,, that the amount of the
income-tax was stopped from those 'naval officers who -
were serving abroad. reduction. Was alio made from
the engineers who were serving in tropical climates,
though one would thinje itsbught to be bad enough to be
shut .up. in the furnace of a steam-,vessel under the-
tropics. He pointed out' those disadVantages, to the
Right Hon. Gentleinan the Chancellor-of the &chequer
on a former occasion. - • They -.now looked • to -the Hon.
and Gallant offieers who served amongst them for relief
from those evils. There ought to be no party. feeling -on
a question of this kind.—(Hear; hear.) The' present
Government _boasted they, were a strong GoVernment.
He hoped they would, thereferes-do away' with- those
evils of which the navy had to Complains-s(Hear, hear.)
. Mr. A. CHAPMAN said he Was'sorry to hear from
the Gallant Officer, the Member for Westminster, that
the French showed themselves more expert than the
English, navy in, getting under weigh, for he was proud
of the British navy, and alwnys,wished to see it in a most
efficient state.—(Hear' hear.) •
Captain ROUS explained. He had the-greatest con-
fidence in the navy and the young 'officers, 'but if men •
were allowed to 'remain on shore for twenty-five years,
he did not think they could be' of much use when they
went to fight.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) If, .hOweier,
a war should unfortunately occur between this country
and the French, be would stake his existence upon the
result.—(ll ear, hear.)
After a few.words from Sir. G. COCKBURN,
Sir C.'NAPIER said that he congratulated the House
and' the country on the agreement which for once seemed
to exist between naval officers on both sides of the
House.—(Hear, hear.) He apprehended that this wotild
turn out to be of the greatest benefit to the navy of the
country. He recollected' the Noble Lord the Member
for Staffordshire(Lord Ingestrie), whom he was sorry
not to see in his place, spoke of the 'unfairness of naval
officers combining against the' Governenent.—(A laugh.)
But his (Sir C. Napier s) opinion was, that it was an ad-
vantage to the country at large to see naval officers
combining to reform all Boards of Admiralty—no mat-
ter whether Whig or Tory, it was equally indifferent to
him. They would see that the discussion which had
taken place that night would be folloived by the most
treinendous effect on this Admiralty.—(Laughter.) It
was a fact that naval officers were so bowed down that
they dare not speak their minds. They were afraid to
say, " we want this or that," '" this ship is bad," or " so-,
and-so is wrong," because they knew it would not be
liked at head-quarters. The Gallant Admiral opposite
'knew this'very wellsbift human nature was 'such that he
could not help it.—(Laughter.) And. if he wanted to sup-
port that assertion' he need only refer to what the Gallant
Officer said with regard to the Penelope. He stated that-
she was a gallant vessel in paddles and box, that .she -
was perfect and dry, and never shipped a drop of water.
Why it waanotorionstO everybody but the Captain that,
so far from never shipping watee, and ho was never
above water--(Laughter)—that she was always under
water, and only came up, like aporpoise once an hour,
to breathe.—(Much laughter.) That waif:known to every
officer on board. They wrote letters to him privately.
and they all expressed their opinions that she was
only fit to be drowned. It was an absolute fact.
He now Caine to the Albion. The Albion, of 3;000
tons, cost 90;000/. ; the 'Rodney, of 2,598 tons, cost
75,000/. ; the Powerful, and ships of that class, of 2,484
tons,_cost 68,000 L Now the House would see what was
gained in the Albion: It was intended to carry eight-
inch guns, 64 pounders.. . Why had not the Albion got
the eight-inch guna?—
(Hear, hear.) If the Albion
could not carry -more guna than the other ships, what
was the use of building a vessel of thatdescription? The
and of the same Weight,
Albion mounted only six more guns-than the Powerful,
while- she' cost 22,0001 more
,She carried her guns six. feet four. A smaller ship of.'
the same weight of, Metal carried her guns seven feet-
four. Rodney, :which mounted two -more guns
than the Albion, carried her guns' -sesens feet'
eight and seven feet 'ten out of- the water. He.
would 'ask, what was the' . use of building ships 'of that
description? -There were six now on the stocks. He
hoped the Gallant Admiral would take them to pieces.
It' was perfectly absurd: to persevere in the present
Ceurse. 'Some remarks had fallen from the Gallant Officer
opposite about, the French' ships. He begged to state
that-he himself saw the French squadron under weigh
one or twice. • The weather was
fine.—(Hear, hear.)
The squadron got under weigh remarkably well. Afterstanding out to sea for two or three days, the vessels came
in and took up their positions: The cables and anchors were.
run out, and the boats hoisted in in a superior manner ;
and on one occasion he saw the Adrisiral's topsails reefed
in five minntes:—(llear, hear.) Now the House was
-well aware of" his views on-this 'subject.- When officers
arrived at a certain period of life they became compara-
tiyely idle, and were contented to lie quietly at anchor
instead of exercising the ships as they
ought to do, If
they appointed young officers to command their ships,
and young -Admirals to cohamandtheir fleets, he had not
the slightest doubt that they would be superior to the.
French. They had had a three-decker for three years
under an Admiral 75years of age. 'He asked the House
to judge whether it .was possible tnbring up young' offi-
cers properly under such a system ? It must be re-
membered that half the young officers of the navy were
trained son board the ships at Malta, at Sheer-
ness, . and s at Plymouth.(Hearr hear.) It would
not be surprising if, under the existing
system, the
French, the American; or any-other navy, would prove
superior to our-own'. He attributed the evil tothe con-
stitution of the -Admiralty.—(Hear, hear.) lie- blamed
-the Right Hon.- Baronet for- not acceding to the pro-
allowance for
posal to vote 15,000/, a year, as a retiring
-the old' officers in the service; sending thelmashore happy
and contented,' 'instead of suffering them to prevent
younger men from fulfilling their arduous duties.—
(Cheers.). If they wanted to have a fleet which Would
be fit to conipete with an enemy; they
must appoint as
officers young men, of-40 -years of age, and if fileq;did
that, they might defy the wholeworld.—(Hear,
hear.) Before he consented to this vote, he
would -be glad - to 'knoW from the Gallant • Officer
opposite whether, alter two years' experience, he approVed
of the present constitution oftlie Admiralty ?—(Hear,
hear;sincl laughter.) He would be glad to hear whether
or not lie had changed the opinioi( which he expressed'
when the subject was brought forward by 'the Right !
Hon. Baronet, thirteen years age, who impressed" on the
House -the necessity of consolidating. the different
departments, and said that they must either have all.the
officers at the Admiralty, or- else the Board of Adrisi-
ralty must be removed to Someriet House ?—(Hear,
hear.) At present, the Admiralty performed its duties
partly in Whitehall, 'and partly at Somerset • House, and
the whole of the work fell upon fire or six persons, who
had no respensibility at ail:—(Hear:) If the same system
was adopted' in this department which already existed in
-the Ordnance, hebelieved the most beneficial results would
. flow from", the .change.. Without 'an alteration in this
respect, it was impossible to hope•Toi, improvement in
the navy.
Sir GEORGE COCICBURN said he should not give
any answer. to the question of the, Gallant Officer as to
the :,constitution of' the Admiralty; except to say that so
long as he could do his. duty he would remain there, and
when he could not he would retire.—(Hear, hear.)
The Gallant Officer, who_ dealt very much- inaasertions,
.had made some statements.in reference to the Penelope.
On that subject he begged to read ;an extract from a
fetter from Sir Charles .Owen. It was as . follows:
" Duringthe time that the Penelope was under my com-
mand from. the. 6th to the llth.instaet, there were
generally very heavy.:seas. and • very- strong gales. I
directed her to steer right- to windward, hgainst head-•
wind and tide; Which she appeared.te do without pitch-•
•
.ing in any degree or straining in tiny Way, and she was
evidently perfectly dry."—(llear, from the Ministerial.
• benches.) • . •
Sir C. NAPIER said he defied the Admiral, unless lie
were on board-the vessel himself at the time, to form an
accurate judgment in•reference to the Penelopes7s(llear
flour:} die would be glad to know what was the opinion
&Captain Austin; the officer in command. They had
heard nothing on that'subjett.—(Hear, hear.) •
• The vote was then agreed to. •
The next -vote proposed was' for a. sum not exceeding
2,980/. to defray the expenses of the office for the registry.
:of merchant seamen. •
Captain- PECH ELL wished to kilts* if the merehant
'seamen were now fully and properly:registered. If a
vessel sailed for Isendonsand after Wards put into a dis-
tant port, were there any means of ascertaining 'the;
persons on board?:. The Secretary of State for--the Home
Department had given notice of ssßill to ;liana the Ait
fer -the registry of merchant 'seamen, and therefore he
• d that the present plan did
imaginenot work well., Be-
' fore he sat dowiThe Would- beg to state that he thought
the Gallant Admiral oughtstcohave sansivered the gees=
tion of the Gallant Commodore as to what was Captain

!:4ustin'a opinion of the•FeWelope. ,:lie .thonbt the Ad-
rrnhititY fiaddone perfectly right-to institute the experi-
Matt, but the reselts,of it ought to be. stated ,
ir Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT admitted that the system
for the registry of merchant seamen did not work well,
but as hi:Right Hon, Friend had given notice of a. Bill
to amend:tho measure,-ke giought it wouldlie better to
defer the discussicin,until tl Bill Sh,ould be before -the
House. , -

Dr. BOWRING- asked what. 'vas. the number of sea-
men registered according to. the last accounts ? - _ ' ,
'- - Mr. SYDNKY fIiBBBERT-About IZ-000. --7---z ' -
- 'Capt. PECHELL_Wished for more information as •to
the working of the systeni. 'lt had en introduCed with
a view to 'do-away with-impressment, but the Shipowners
''-liad complained -much Of the ;working of the system.
. Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT was aware of those corn-
.. . ,
l!Plaints-rand admitted; that the system bad • floe- worked
satisfactOrily, but he thcinght the: present 'Pas not the
fittest. opportunity for, diacussing the question. ~ .
-' The vote wasLthEM:agreed. to. , ~
~ - ' '-• . -
The next-yote,proposedoWeS Oat a '-sum not exceed-I
ing 38,076/. shouldbe appropriated-ter:defraying the ex-
-1 penes of the -seientific.departnimktof the navy. •
!' Captain.PECHE,l44conarlainod of the miserable ac-:coramoclatian afforded to the ' hydrOgraphers' depart 4
nient in the AdMiralty. It was a disgrace to the voun4
try: They Were in'arrears inthe. construction of their
maps'and 'charts from surveys; because they had not tic.;
;tuall”pacar sufficient to get•them up in. The whole of
the present building ought-to be 'appropriated to thelyf
drographical department, and the other departments
'should be rentoired.to Somerset House, and he
.believed
that that alteration Would:have ,been made long 'since
had it not been for the wives of the residents in the
,T4e •ladies did not like to reinovelrem the prel-
sent budding. -. . _ - , . • ;
' ; 'Dr. BOWRING observed an item of-'l,OOOl. a year.
for scientific experlinents..•• No money would- :be. more
, cheerfullyioted, butheAlionght the Rouse ought ituni- •
Ethyl() be fernished_With Some, account' of those 'exPert-
mentS. He Understood-that 'it 'portion of this money hail
been devoted to experiments, the object Of, which was tO,
endeavour to discover some substitute for steam poWe .
-That was a most, praiseworthy object, and he wished t
know if such were the'case?
' Mr. SYDNEY 'HERBERT- Said that some g,alvan
experiments had been tried, but he Was riot aware of a ,
other eXperinienta having for their object the. discove -
of a substitute,for steam power. The -gtenter part of t e
slim, however, hadlieen expended in giving rewards 0"
seivatific• men for Important mVentions. .. •, _ -
Mr.. WILLIAMS asked hoW the great falling off n
ly
the sale ofthe -Nautical Almanac could be accounted for?'
Mr. SYDNEy. HERBERT-L.-Instead of a falling Off
there has- been an increase. ' - . I
Mr. WILLIAMS-4 beg your pardon—l see I aln
mistaken.—( A laugh.)- . -
Mr. A. CHAPMAN expressed the:gild-Ando felt Ily.
the merchant service to the Adiniralti foithenianner n •
which theylittbliilied the'niost valuable charts at a ve y,
cheap. rate.—The Vote was `then agreed to.
- - A• vete of -127,277/..was then proposed to defray, t e
e Tnses• of our navall-establishments in the dockyardi.
• (dart ,PLUMRIDGE complained that the.supply of
water to some of the dockYarda Was deficient. 1
Mr. -'SYDNEY HERBERT:.*Said., that tanks . were
always kept in the dockyardS,-andthat they could halve'
more water if it *ere:required.- ••• • - • •
• Mr TUFNELL wished to ;dra*, the attention of t e '
GovernMent to the ease:of a. most . meritorious set of
offieers; he meant the inspectors- -of the dockyards.
They- had been originally
,appointed . in 1835, and til-
thcrughl their dUties -were .mucli..xlifir: ,arduous, 'th
those of the doCkmen their salaries were oily
104 per annum, while, the • salaries -of the dockmen
were 1501. When: :they were" first ' established they
were 'only on duty . five day, ..iri: :the week.. They
Were. now on duty -six days a week, and. they had
net.the advantage enjoyed by'day-pay officers, of having
extra-pay for extra work. Another point to which ihe
wished to advert was whether the men' employed in the
dockyards ought' to have the. enjoyment of the elective
franchise or not.' ' Ile thought they • ought, for he had
never seen a. more independent net of men. than the-ope-
ratives employed in the dockyard:, . • " i
Mr. BARNARD thought tho aubjeet of Whether the
GoVerninent dockyards ought tv be rated to the poOr-
rates in the parishes in which they were situated ought.
to be considered by the Admiralty. -He 'thought it an
injustice on the other inhabitants of the towns in which
the dockyards were situated that those dockyards were
not rated the same -as other property.
- . Mr. S. HERBERT could inform the Hon. Member
for Devonport (Mr. Tufnell) that the question- of then
superanuation Of persons-engaged in the dockyards was
at present under the consideration of the Admiralty.
With respect to the obServations of the Hon. Member
for Greenwich (Mr. Barnard) he had to state that !all
houses in the dockyards which were beneficially occu-
pied were rated to the relief of the poor, but those hoeses
which were occupied as offices were not . rated. This
question had often.been mooted in the Courts of Law,
and the decisions had always been in favour of the pre-
sent systeni. •• • • ' i
• e'Dr.'I3OWRING wished to know if any improv,cment
had been made in the mode, of keeping store accounts?
The - store accounts generally were very unsatisfactory.
The balance of stores.had always-been very inaccurately
known and very inaccurately reported.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that very great pains had been
taken to introduce an improved system of keeping', the
accounts of public'stores.—The vote was agreed to.. *
A vote of 22,42fi1. - was next proposed, to ,defray. the
expenses of het. Majesty's naval establishments abroad:
'Dr. BOWRING asked if this vote was Meant to apply
Ito contemplated or existing establishments ? . •
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT replied, to existing . . ~.
estab-
lishments.—Agreed to. . -
The next vote proposed was, that.a sum, not execed-
ing 649,3241., he granted for the payment of labourers
and artificers in the. naval yards. •
• Dr. BOWRING • thought the nature of .the vote
should be more distinctly specified. The House should
be informed .hoW many men were employed, and what
the rate diirageS was. ,
Mr. SIDNEY 'HERBERT said the' average rate of
' wages Was 45.-6 d. per day. , . ~
Sir JAMES i)UKE .said he understood that a very
-pernicious practice prevailed in the Royal Hospital at
Greenwich, viz.--Ahat of transmitting those unfortunate
patients • who became lunatics to private asylums in
London,instead of being sent to the extensive and well
eondiicted-establishment at Maslen • - .
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said the matter had been
very recently under the consideration of the. Admiralty.
It sometimes happened that inmates of the Royal Hos-
pital, Greenwich, were afflicted with a temporary insanity
which did not last longer than a month. Until the
lunacy became confirmed, the establishment at Hasler
had an objection to receive them-. • • ,
After a few words from Captain Gordon, Mr. Williams
and Mr. S. Herbert, the vote was agreed to.
A sum of 298,3661: was • voted for the purpose of de-
fraying the expenses 'of the works in the naval dock-
yards: ' • •' i ' . ' - • •
20,1651. was voted for medical-services. ' -
- - On the motion that the sum: of 61,6301. be granted for
miscellaneous _services, • •
Captain PECHELL complained that the alloWance
to captains was very disproportionate. • • - * .
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the subject hid been for,
a considerable time under the consideration of the Go-
vernment, and he had no doubt that .an arrangement
would be made to the satisfaction of the captains.
The next vote propose- d 'was for the sum of 742,2961.'
to. defray the charge of the half43ay to the officers of the
Royal Navy and Royal Marines.
• The 'vote was -agreed to.
• The next vote proposed was for the sum of 495,626/.
to defray the charge of pensions and allowances.
me. -WlLLlAMS•considered that this vote ought to,
be postponed until the Government had given an expla-
.nation to the House the continued increase in the de-
mand for this branch of the public service. ' • ' •
- • Mr. S. HERBERT justified the vote, and stated that
there had been no increase in this part of the public.
service froinlast year. The reason why the amount ap-
reared so much larger was that many items were-in-'
eluded in this vote that came under a different head last
year. . ' '' :, , . -, ~
, 40r• it short conversation between ,Mr. S. HERBERT
.and Mr.--MonE O'FiiiiieLt, • •
Sir C.-NAPIER said there ought to be a more intelli-
gible priii6ple of granting pensions to wounded officers.
.Some years ago an officer received a pension for a wound
'that vvi4 equal to theloss ofa•limb. • Her Majesty reserved
to herself the right of &liking pensions fur services. If
he received a' vvoilnd.inone leg that made 'it two inches
shorterthan the other, he should have a pension;, but if
. .... . .
he Was shaiii:Voth kis, io as to bring him ''upon` an
'even ikeo--(Greatlatighter)----he should have no pensien
at 2.11.----(Lingliter:)-11e did • think -that in•future, if an
officer received a.wound,.he sheuld,be examined by me-.
1, -dicnlmen, lteir:reportLto-fix• what pension he ought to
receive .
Sir ,GEORGE COCKBURN said, that if the wound
was nbt equal to-the loss of a limb, he received a gra-
tuity, if equal to the losS ,of 6' limb be received a
pension.—The vote was then agreed to.
' 162,959/. was voted for defraying the, expenses of civil
pensions and allowances. '
On the vote of 169,890/. being proposed to defray the
expenses 'or tran'spsrting stores, . .. •
- . Mr. MORE O'FIARALL referee' to ',several items
in theamountin, which there Was. an increase whilst- in
others there was a decrease. It appeared to him, that
:there ought ..to.. be either an . increase or decrease
throughout.. .. ..... • ,
After a shortdisoussion, the vote was agreed to. •
96,327/. was votedfor the conveyance of convicts to
"Now' South Wales and Tan Diernen's 'Land.
On the motion for granting 432,541/. for the expenses
of thepiteket-serricc, "
_, • ..' •
Dr. BOWIIING said, that as he Understood that the
I packets were' now engaged in far less extensive. service
-than they. forceerly were, ,he would be glad to know if
• there was any..ohjection to slew how the money was Exp..
'-plied. He also begged- to ask whether there was any
probability of a communication being established; by
means of Steamers, with certain portions of the. Ottoman
' empire ? -- ' '• '' - : - • , •. ' .
The CHANCELLOR ,of the EXCHEQUER had
no,ohjecti,op,te layOu the table the information which the
,Hon. Gent-len:lan desired. Ile could not held Mit anYhope.
of the estahlishmerif•c4 the communication in queStion.
Inconsequence of the arrangeinent with' the French Go.!
vernment, letters from Turkey could be reoeivedthrongh
France at- a cheaper Tate, and in a shorter time than
.they could. be received by packet: He therefore thought
he should not beJUStified in demanding the Post-office
r to War( this- additional expense. ' .
Mr. F. T. BARING complained that the times of the
starting of.-the AdMiralty packets ' wag never
,knowid;
-and.suggestel that a time table should be regularly pub
lished. . ,
- - :' Mr, MORE O'FERRAU, wished, that the contract
packet service should be taken under th... control of the
Lords of the.Acinnialty. • . • -
- •The - vote was ' then. agreed to, and the HoUse
-resumed:--The' Report, was ,ordered.tobe.brought up_on.
maiplaiiiiimi J. : ,-, ~t .iiisa 41.04 bILS PALCIA-W": _•' It: '