The Sun.
London, England, 1826-12-07 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAND.

Mr. MOORS held in his hand a Petition from
Mr. Emanuel Hutchinson Orpen, of Exchequer-street, Dublin, on
4 moat important subject, to which he begged to call the serious'
attention of the House. The petitioner complained of the power
poasessed end exercised by the Roman Catholic Priesthood in Ire-
land to denounce, by excommunication, persons of their own faith
who refused to concur with them in their political objects. The
dangerous character of a eontroul of this description must he
obvious to the House, and it was not his intention to enter into
any details on the subject at that moment, as in the course of the
Session various occasions would arise when it might he more ad-
vantageously discussed. The House would perhaps, however,
permit him to make one observation. The power against which
Mr. Orpen petitioned was a power not quiescent. It was a power
which•he could assure the House was not only capable of being
exercised, but which had been actually anti extensively exercised.
It was a power, the bare possession of which, even if never
exercised, was calculated to give to the Roman Catholic Priest-
hood a most dangerous and unjust influence over the Roman
Catholic laity. One of the most striking characteristics of this
power was nil creation of that mixed system of religion and
polities which had placed, and which kept, his Majesty's Roman
,Catholic subjects in. Ireland in that position with respect to the
State which put it totally out of their powef to give security for the
due exercise of whatever political rights, might he conceded to
dim. He confitoiell that this consideration, with many others,
impressed him most strongly with the conviction which he had
long entertained, that on no terms whatever could further conces-
sion be afely granted to the Rotas Catholic*. The Honourable
Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to being up the Petition.
Mr. SPRING RICE by no means, rose to op-
pose the bringing up of the Petition. On the coetrary, it was his
opinion that every man was entitled to aim i • p ain to that House of
any grievances under which he laboured. 115 rejoiced,
therefori,
that Mr. Orpen had come to that House; and he trusted, that if
Petitions from other individuals of a different nature should come
to the House hereafter, the Hon. Member by whom tide Petition
had been presented would be disposed to receive them with equal
readiness. The Hon. Member for Dublin regretted the airobi.
nation of religion and politics. Ile (Mr. Rice) regretted it tau.
—(Hear, hear, hear.).--Every good man regretted it. It defiledin
iiinme
" religion, and perverted politics. The error, however, watt
institutions which persevered in connecting them. In the laws
which withheld their ,evil rights from the Catholics, the Hon.
MeMber fin Dublin might trace the origin of the evil of which
be complained.--Hear, hear.)
Mr. JAMS GRATTAN begged to say one
word. Ise could not hear the allegations of the petition which
had been Kesented by the Hon. Gentleman, without declaring in
his coneeience, that he did not believe that the power possessed by
the Catholic Priesthood had been exercised to the extent alleged.
He regretted exceedingly that the lion. Member for Dublin should
have availed himself of the present opportunity to indulge in a
tirade against the Catholics, on grounds which, in his (Mr. Grat-
tan's) opinion, where wholly untenable.
Colonel TORRENS observed, that the Hon.
›ferober-who had presented the petition had, in the course of his

observations, uttered one sentiment, which he (Colonel Iforrens)
could never hear without at least one word of comment. that
sentiment was, " that the Catholics could give no security which
would render it safe to make :thy dither concession to them."
What security was required If the Legislature gave them politi-
cal power, *Aid Wit theirlove for that power induce them to re•
tails it by their conduct?
The petition was then brought lip and read. It stated at con-
siderable length, and in strong terms, the atrocities which had
at various times been cot milted in Ireland, and which it imputed
principally to Ott influence of the Roman Catholic priesthood;
and it prayed, that henceforward, any person delionticing an in-
dividual by way of excommunication, or ptonouncing,an anathe-
-Ina upon him, should be stobjtct to a penalty of 201. recoverable
by civil bill before the assistant barrister ; and that any individual
so aggrieved, Wight sue besides for special damages.
-Mt MOORE moved that the petition be printed.
Mr. SPRING RICE put it to the lion. Member,
whether any good could arise horn printing and circulating such
a petition. It might produce much irritation ; and he husted,

erefore, that the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion.

Mr.MOORE maintained that ,the statements in
the petition were incontroVertible. He had merely asserted that
which was as notoriona as the sun at noon-day, that the Roman
Catholic priesthood possessed the power described in the petition.
tie did 1113 t blame them for exercising that power. They bad a
spiritual duty to perform, and he gave them credit for performing
it conscientiously. But that was the very thing he complained
of. The performance of such a supposed duty was calculated to
occasion very extensive mischief. He repeated his opinion, that,
situated as the Catholics were, a further concession of political
power to them was dangerous to the State.
Mr. S. RICE observed, that many of the burnings

and massacres adverted to in the petition :were as unconneci&l
with religious considerations as if they. had taken place in this
country. The petitioner then charged the Roman Catholic
Clergy with the most enormous vices; and prayed for the esta-
blishment of a new code of laws against them. The House had
the authority of the Attorney-General for Ireland, that the Clergy
had not contributed to the excesses which had taken place in that
country. What ground, therefore, could there be for the allega-
tions of the petitioner? He detested the reviving of old animo-
sities in Ireland. If that hook were opened, let not the House
believe that all the guilt would be found on one side. That those
dreadful scenes of atrocity to which the petitioner had referred
were deeply to be deplored, no one would deny ; but every judi-
cious man was anxious that they should, as much as possible, be
forgotten. If, however, they were referred to, let it be for the
purpose of taking such steps as might prevent their recurrence;
and not for the purpose of giving a new stimulus to ancient ani-
mosities. The present petition was a firebrand ; and he entreated
the Hon. Member, as he valued the peace of his own country—as
be valued his own powers iu that House (which he rejoiced to
see were great), not to prevs his motion.
Mr. GOULBURN confessed that he thought the

Hon. Gentleman, who had just spoken, had taken a tone_ far
beyond what the nature of the case required. Every one was
aware that petitions were frequently presented, stating the opinions
of individuals; in the propriety of which opinions, it was by no
means, necessary that the House should concur, before they allowed
the petitions to be printed. To select one petition for reprehen-
sion, on this ground, while petitions, equally objectionable, on
the other 'side, were allowed to pass without observation, would
not be much to the credit of those by whom it was done, nor
make a very favourable impression on the public mind of the
justice of their cause.

Mr. ABERCROMBIE said, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had mistaken his Hon. Friend, who had merely urged
the good sense and good feeling, under the circumstances of the
case, of not giving circulation to the allegations of the petition, by
ordering it to be printed. Let it be recollected that the question
about to be considered and determined was a novel, untouched,
untried question; and therefore, that all possible pains should be
taken to avert from it every thing tending to the creation of an
undue and injurious prejudice. In the appeal, therefore, which his
HoM Friend had nnule to the Hon. Member by whom the petition
had been introduced, be (Mr. Abercrombie) most sincerely con-
curred. He would venture to say, that no person in that House cbn-
templated the approaching discuision on the state of Ireland with a
more intense anxiety than he did. For twenty years, he had at-
tended every discussion in that House on the Catholic Question,
and had, on• every occasion, voted in favour of the Catholics.
Dining that period, he hail frequently been in Ireland. He had
also been in Ireland shies the lust agitation of the question and
he declared that be never returned from that country so deeply
impressed with the urgency of the occasion. Ho was perfectly
convinced that it was their most serious duty to take every means,

f not yet too late, to save the integrity of the empire. .B(;_feeling,

he asked the House if the subject was not one which required the
calmest consideration ? Nothing which had recently occurred in
Ireland had altered his view of the great merits of the case, or •had
shaken his opinion in favour of Catholic Emancipation ;—a mea
sure which he had always thought desirable, and which he now '
thought more desirable than ever. • For himselt; no person had '
ever more steadily and uniformly set his face against violence and
intemperance on either side of the question.
Mr. Secretary PEEL would not say a word on the
general question respecting Ireland. Whenever the subject Caine
regularly before the-House, he should be prepared to discuss it to
the best of his ability ; but until then he would cautiously avoid
all allusion to it. This, however, he would say, that he most
sincerely wished the parties on both sides would consult their best
interests, by abstaining from all intemperance. Confining him-
self to the simple question, whether or not it was desirable that
the Honourable Member for Dublin should persevere in pressing
the petition which he had that evening presented, he (Mr. Peel)
could assure the House, that the advice which he should give on
the occasion would be given on principle, and without considering
from which side of - the House, or from what party the petition
emanated.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—On looking at the petition, he
found that it was the petition of a single individual. Now every
individual had an undoubted right to communicate his sentiments
to the House in the form of a petition ; but the House had also an
undoubted right to abstain, if they thought proper, from giving
those sentiments publicity. lie found, in this petition, that a cer-
tain class of persons were said to be " notorious for their avarice,

drunkenness, and debauchery." Now, he certainly did not think
it fair, that under the pretence of petitioning that House, any in-
dividual should be enabled at his own discretion to give general
circulation to statements affecting the personal character of others.
He therefore joined with the Honourable Gentleman opposite in
expressing his hope that his lion. Friend would not press the
printing of the petition—( Hear, hear.) '
• Mr. MOORE then withdrew the motion for print-

ing the petition.
Mr. GEORGE DAWSON brought up some
Papers relative to Portrush Harbour, in Ireland, which veers re-
ferred to a Committee.