The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-28 00:00:00

EXPENDITURE OF THE COUNTRY.

Mr. !Nam prefaced the motion, relative to the
Expenditure of the Nation, of which he had
given notice, by adverting to the distress which
prevailed amongst the agricultural, manufactur-
ing, and commercial classes of the Country. Re-
lief was demanded from all quarters, and none,
be was confident, could be given but by reducing
the expenditure of the country. The calls of
the country had not been listened to by that
Jlouse, or it would not have been his task to come
forward with that motion at this period of the
Session. .Such was the state of the public ac-
counts that two individuals making a statement
on the same subject could not arrive at the same
conclusion. In this manner of conducting public
business, he begged of the House to look at the
state the country was in in the sixth year of
j'eace. The charge of the public debt had not
been reduced one farthing, but had actually been
increased 130,0001. He therefore thought a re-
duction ought to be made, and might be made,
of four millions annually, without touching any
resources which ought to be considered as sacred.
He was in a condition to show the error of the
statement made by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, that a- million had been saved. The
supposed reduction took , place in the Miscella-
neous Estimates, and the reduction was merely
nominal. In 1817, thirteen millions were voted ;
in 1818, 1819, and 1820, upwards of 14 millions ;
and this year, 14,353,0001. The increase had
been progressive ; and the votes of the present
year were therefore considerably worse than
those of 1817. The Army Extraordinaries could
not be calculated exactly ; but calculating from
the votes, they were more than those of any of
the last four years. The public had a right to
look for a considerable reduction in these de-
partments. In 1792 the expence was two mil-
lions ; in this year, 8,900,000/. An increase,
nearly in the same proportion, had taken place
in the Navy. The whole charge in 1792 for
Army, Navy, and Ordnance together, was four
millions ; and this year it was 14 millions. The
debt had increased so much, as to require an an-
nual payment of 32 millions instead of 12 millions,
which was the interest in 1792. Hon. Members
had declined voting with him, one, because he said
the statements were matter of opinion ; another,
because he said they were matter of fact. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, could not
get over figures ; and upon them he (Mr. Hume)
would rely. The Noble Marquess had, how-
ever, invariably promised that if a reasonable re-
duction were proposed, it should be adopted.
Now it appeared that in 1817, the total expen-
diture was 67 millions ; 1818, 68 ; in 1819, 68 ;
in 1820, 69; and this year, 70
had this year occupied a considerable portion of
the time of the House. He was not ashamed to
confess it ; but he, had done so to accommodate
the Noble Marquess—(A. laugh)—who in a
former Session had called for specific statements.
in talking of reduction, the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite had taken credit for sums
which never had been considered permanent.
It was eau to shew a nominal saving, by leav-
ing out sums which could be postponed another
year. lie (Mr. Hume) had therefore taken the
expence at an average of four years, which he
conceived to be the fair way of taking if. When
the Right lion. Gentleman did not call for ex-
traordinary votes, he called it a saving. This
was not the kind of saving he (Mr. Hume) want-
ed. He wanted a saving in the expence of ge-
neral Establishments. They were masked, and
he was determined to unmask them. Large sums
had been paid to the Commissioners of Woods
and Forests to pay for improvements, and of
these sums no account had been rendered. Si-
milar payments had been made to the Bank of
England, the Commissioners of Queen Anne's
Bounty, and other public bodies. The accounts
of these papers were huddled up together so that i
no idea could be formed of their propriety. He
thought, however, that the whole of them might
be saved without any detriment to public inte-
rest. The Hon. Member then enumerated the
various branches of the Army, regular and irre-
gular, which, in the aggregate, he contended
had increased. Those for parade and home pur-
poses might, he thought, be reduced ; and this
argument would apply to civil officers who re-
ceived large salaries for trifling public services.
Thus far as to numbers. The expence had in
creased even with reference to an equal number
kept up in former years. The mode in which com-
missions were given away was highly to be repro-
bated. He could shew upwards of 300 instances
in which persons were put on half-pay the day
after receiving their commission. Half-pay was
intended for past services, and this practice was
therefore in direct violation of those principles.
He must admit that a different practice was fol-
lowed in the Navy, and he wished the House to
notice the circumstance; as it was improper such
military power should be given to any Commander-
in-Chief. Out of 2500 advancements, only 300
bad taken place out of the half-pay. He thought
justice to the officers on half-pay demanded an
official return upon the subject. The Govern
meet had transferred 247 officers from the line to
the veteran battalions, in order that they might
enjoy full pay. The Commissariat department
scarcely existed in 1792, and it was now perfectly
,enormous. In the course of the Session, he had
'proposed a reduction of 20,000 men. But he had
withdrawn it at the suggestion of his friends.
This reduction would have saved considerably
more than a million. Various reductions had how-
ever been proposed, amounting in the whole to
1,600,000!.; but not one of them had been adopt-

ed. The expence of the Navy had increased
beyond all measure since the year 179'2. The
expence of building for _the last seven years
amounted to the enormous sum of 17 millions,
and the House had voted in one item 200,000/.
for Dock-yard Officers, and 100,0001. for the men,
so that the pay of the Superintendants exceeded
that of the workmen. In the Dock-yards alone
we had expended in .the last seven years more
than five millions. Really he thought some de-
gree of comparison ought to be drawn be-
tween our expences and our means. Out of
the vote for building ships he had proposed
a reduction, because he had thought that some
attention ought to he paid to the manning
as well as to the building. Ile now came
to the Ordnance. It appeared that 100,0001.
had been paid for gratuities alone. This
practice had been stopped by the Government,
but it was clear to him that 200,0001. might be
saved from this department. The whole course
of the proceedings in the House shewed, in his
opinion, that the only way to obtain economy was
-to compel it, and that the only way to compel it
was by withholding the money. Every Depart-
ment was overcharged, and he would pledge his
existence that a saving might be made in each.
The Receiver General's Department might he
reduced by 75,0001. if Government were really
disposed to reduce it. He was sorry to observe
that there was little disposition to carry into effect
the Report of the Finance Committee. His ob-
servation in this respect was perfectly warranted
by the Bill in progress for the allowance to the
Duke of Clarence. With regard to the Report
in question, he was happy to except the conduct of
the Paymaster-Gene-ral, who had shewn great
candour throughout, and who had in general
adopted the recommendation of the Committee.
He thought the House ought not to separate
without passing a Bill for carrying into effect
every Resolution of the Committee. He had
on a former occasion brought under the notice of
the House the mode in which payment was
made to the Distributors of Stamps, and he
pledged himself to get all the duties performed
at a reduction of 50,0001. in the expence, with-
out incurring the slightest risk. He called upon
the Government to adopt this proposal of them-
selvefi, without an Act of Parliament. He could
find persons of substance and respectability to
undertake the office at two per cent. instead of
six per cent. which was allowed at present
in some parts of the country. With respect
to the expence of collecting the Assessed Taxes,
he had received many letters from Scotland,
complaining actually of the laziness of the pub-
lic officers. The expence of collection was from
3to 8 per cent. on the Pet produce. He would
here just refer to an official paper relating to Ire-
land, shewing an increase of 15,0001. a year in
the salaries, and a decrease of 500,000/. in the
revenue for the last year. These were instances
he referred to for the purpose of shewing the so-
lidity of his observation, that a million a year
might be saved. For this purpose he might sub-
mit the taking off of the taxes upon candles,
soap, leather, and salt. Even now it was not out
of the power-of the House to make the reduction.
The House had granted an immense Civil List,
and a Pension List of 300,0001. out of the Con-
solidated Fund. If they were disposed to relieve
the country, they had now a fair opportunity of
doing so. It was for his Majesty's Ministers to
make a reduction with a good grace. No mah
could deny that the less the taxes the larger
would be the National Income. He well
knew what he said, and he was convinced of the
truth of it, for the money was more profitable to
the country in the pockets of the people than in
the coffers of the Exchequer. He should there-
fore conclude by moving a Resolution, which he
had drawn up in terms as little objectionable
as possible. It was to the following effect :
That an humble Address be presented to his
Majesty, praying, that with a view to relieve the
public distress, he would be pleased to order a
minute Investigation into the Expence attending
the Collection of the public Revenue, and into
the practicability of diminishing the National Ex-
penditure without detriment to the public inte-
rest, and especially with reference to the reduc-
tion of the Army.

The Marquis of TAVtSTOCK having been ab-
sent during most of the discussions on the Esti-
mates, was happy to take the opportunity of
seconding this motion, to do the Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down an act of justice, by
acknowledging the value and importance of. the
services which he had rendered the country by
his zealous exertions, which had placed him high
id the
_estimation and confidence of the people of
England.—(Cheers.)--While, however, he did
justice to the zeal, activity, and perseverance of
the Hon. Member, he must be allowed to say
that he could not but lament to see that any ne-
cessity should have existed for dragging before
their view the minute, details of official arrange-
ments through which ,they had toiled. He was
sorry to see the House departing from its ancient
and constitutional practice, and taking on itself
any part of the. functions of the Executive Go-
vernment.—(Cries of Hear, hear !)—Under exist-
ing circumstances, however, with a Ministry ob-
stinately persevering in ,profligate expenditure
and waste of public money, and determinedly
opposed to the adoption of any plan of economy,
he was ready to admit that perhaps the only way
of enforcing retrenchment was by adopting the
course which had been taken by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen; and which he had followed
with so much ability ; and at least this good
effect would be derived from his labours, that
they would shew the country how vain was the
attempt in that House to refuse any estimates
which the Ministers choose to lay before it.--
After the experience which he had had, he hoped
the Hon. Gentleman would feel that it was useless
and unnecessary to persevere in that course which
he had been following. For the immense patron-
age possessed by Ministers in the enormous stand-
ing army kept u-p in time of peace, with the avow-
ed object of keeping the people down, the immense
patronage which they also derived from the places,
offices, pensions, and honours at their disposal, se-
cured them such an influence in Parliament that
it must appear in vain to expect any thing but
a majority in favour of whatever they might pro-

pose. The ties of gratitude,, under such circum-
stances, were alone sufficient to insure it, without
the slightest reference to any corrupt nature or
interested expectations. The Noble Lord then
adverted to the late vote for the repeal of the
Husbandry Horse Duties, which, he said, re-
' fleeted little credit on those who, having voted
for the Estimates, then turned round on the Noble
Lord, and cut off the means of paying those esti
blishments which they had voted for keeping up.
—Before he sat down, there was one subject on
which he trusted lie might be allowed to offer a
few observations. There was nothing which ap-
peared to his mind more repugnant to the British
character than the arming of one part of the com-
munity against the other. it was not, without
regret, therefore, that he heard of the advice
which had been given to his Majesty to assemble
a large military force around the metropolis pre
vious to the approaching coronation. Was that
the way in which the people of England ought
to be treated ? Why should they always be
treated as foes to the King and his Government ?
'Why were they always treated; on every public
occasion, as if it were necessary to keep them
down by force ? He objected to seeing the
military force employed as a body -of police
on all occasions of public ceremony. This was
not the way in which Kings of England in for-
mer" days were accustomed to. he attended—
(Cheers),----this was not the way in which Kings
of England were accustomed to hold their Coro.
nations. Nor could he for a moment assent -to
its necessity or expediency in this instance; for
notwithstanding the representations of Ministers,
and their constant denunciations of discontent
• and disaffection—notwithstanding the hostile
feelings called up by the late proceedings against
the Queen, he was convinced it was only neces-
sary for the King to shew himself in public, to
meet with the good-will and affection of the
people. lie thought, therefore, that those who
had given such advice to his Majesty were un-
worthy of his confidence.
BANKEs, in reply to the concluding re-
marks of the Noble Lord who had just sat down,
could not refrain from stating that, as far as his
memory served, it was usual on all occasions of
public ceremony to have a large body of troops
in attendance as a matter of parade. He could
not help observing also that the Noble Lord had
assumed a tone of despondency with regard •to
that House, which did not become a young Mem-
ber almost in the dawn of life. The Hon. Mem-
ber would allow him to remind him, that as to
the amount of the saving which he proposed, the
House had already decided against him.—(Hear,
hear !)—and of those who sat round about him,
and now cheered, not • one in ten had taken the
pains to make himself master of the subject—
(Hear, hear !)—and of those who had, not
one in ten thought his views practicable.
fie begged to remind the Honourable. Mem-
ber that he (Mr. Bankes) had voted for
the reduction of the army ; he thought it ought
and must be reduced. The Hon. Member pro-
posed to reduce it 20,000 men ; but in order to
get Members..to vote with him, he was obliged
to consent to
.divide on a small part of that num-
ber. On the whole, his views and proposals
seemed little better than visionary. The Hon.
Gentleman then proceeded to notice the savings
which had been effected by Ministers in the
course of last year, and their promises of fqture
reductions. He could wish their efforts for re-
duction were more rapid, but they were sufficient
to prove that there was no disinclination on the
part of Government to accede to such plans .of re-
duction as might appear practicable. The House,
however, ought not to rely Implicitly on the pro-
mises of any man or set of men, and it .would be
very proper to approach his Majesty with an
Address on the subject. But in such Address no
expression should appear which might imply a
doubt of the disposition to meet the wishes of
Parliament and the country. The Hon. Gent.
concluded by saying, that he thought the motion
of the lion. Member for Aberdeen implied a
censure upon Ministers, who, in his opinion, had
done every thing in their power with a view to
economy. He should, therefore, move as an
amendment—
" That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty;stat-
ing that the House had viewed with satisfaction the measures
carried into effect under his Majesty's directions, for the pur-
pose of effecting a general reduction in the Customs ;_ that it
would be most important that similar inquiries should be in-
stituted in the other branches of Revenue ; that inquiries
should also be made into the Civil Department, with a view to
reduce both the 'additional numbers and salaries; and that it
would be most desirable the same principle should be applied
to the more extended departments, and particularly the Azmy."

. Mr. Goocx, as Chairman of the Agricultural
Committee, had supported various resolutions for
economy, and consequently must be considered
an advocate for economy : but when he stated
that, he was induced to prefer the address of
the Member for Corfe Castle, rather than adopt
that of the Member for Aberdeen. In the address
of the latter there was a censure on his Majesty's
Miniiiers which they'did not deServe. He thought
the Hon. Member had began his economy too
late—(Hear, hear !)—and the motion was to be
considered censure, and nothing but censure. He
did not think the country would derive any be-
nefit, provided the Hon. Member for Aberdeen
and his Friends were on the Ministerial Benches.
Ile concluded by seconding the motion.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY in rising to
submit to the House such observations as appear-
ed applicable to the motion, and the Amendment
of his Hon. Friend, also considered as visionary
the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. The
Noble Marquess said, he should be guilty of in-
congruity if he expected strict justice from the
other side of the House, in a decision upon the
actions of his Majesty's Government. He did
not expect that part of the House to appreciate
with candour and sincerity the conduct of Mi-
nisters. At the same time, he did not mean to
impeach the political conduct of Gentlemen, but
there was -always something jaundiced, if he
might be allowed the expression, in the observa-
tions against his Majesty's Government, so much
so, that Government might wait long for strict
justice. A Noble- Lord had spoken of the power
that he (Lord Londonderry) possessed ; he as-
sured him, hog ever, that he was indebted to
that Noble Lord and his friends for all
that power and patronage which appear-

ed to excite so much alarm. If they
had satisfied the country that the public
interest was not safe in other hands, confidence
would naturally be placed on' those who had
guided the great vessel of State amidst surround-
ing dangers. If it idd not been for the Noble
Lord-and his h riends, power might have left his
.Majesty's present ministers. They were in-
debted to the Opposition for the confidence Of The
country, and the confidence of their Sovereign.
It unfortunately happened, whenever the propo-
sitions of the Noble Lord and his friends were
rejected by the House, that a cry was raised of
the country being ruined. A disposition was
then expressed to despair of the House of Com-
mons. At the same time there was nothing
worse than that class of persons who were always
determined to take their ground beyond all rea-
sonable limits. They knew, like an Hon. Mem-
ber opposite, that their plans could not be adopt-
ed yet they pertinaciously insisted on their adop-
tion. The Noble Marquis gave credit to the in-
dustry of the Hen. Member opposite ; but if he
was a Deity, instead df an assiduous, industrious
Member of Parliament, it would be impossible to
make the House approve what-reason and justice
must reject. The Hon. Gentleman was like
many persons who thought nothing was so easy as
toptilldown a Constitution. It was only necessary
to get a number of papers, and a mass of notes
which it was impossible for hilman intellect to
comprehend,--and the Hon. Member might at any
.time throw the House into confusion. He gave
the Hon. Member, however, credit for industry,
but could not approve of his bilious hypochon-
driac statements. The Noble Marquis was well
assured the country would think better of Mi-
nisters for not holding out delusive hopes. Par,
liament would tell the truth, and the public
mind would not be misled. It was unfair to
characterise the military force which a great
ceremony always required, as a proof of disaf-
fection on the part of the people. The manner
in which his Majesty had been received by
all classes of his subjects was sufficient to in-
duce him to trust himself among them.--;-,
He then adverted to economy, and stated that
retrenchment had been made by his Majesty's
Government every year since the peace. The
reduction in the estimates this year amounted to
1,018,0001. The lion. Member seemed deter=
mined to make a Harlequin leap at the end of
the Session, but he (Lord Londonderry) would
never be a mountebank, and agree to tell. the
country four millions could be saved in the course
of the ensuing year, when there was not the
slightest ground for such a promise. He should
always feel satisfaction to deal fairly by the
country, and meet that Parliament which had
never held out false hopes, but'had saved the na-
tion in the time. of difficulty. The Noble Mar-
quess supported the Address moved by the Hon.
Member for Corte Castle. •
Lord MILTON did not think the speech of the Noble Lord
remarkable for its prudence, seeing that he had so frequently
taunted his Noble Friend. With respect to the Agricul-
tural Report, he had read it with care, and he was convinced
that it was drawn up with an intention to divert the attention of
the House and the public from the real question.—(Hear,
hear.)—As to the Addresses that ,were moved, they seemed to
him so much alike, that it was indifferent to him for which of
them he voted.—(Hear.) —He hoped that when they met again
he should find that something had been done in the way of re-
trenchment. And looking at the price of corn, arid the general
state of the country, he rather suspected that neither the de-
sire nor the necessity for economy would be less than they now
were.

The Marquess of TITCHFIELD urged the necessity of re-
trenchment in the-expenditure of the army. Ile could not un-
derstand why, when the country was in such distresS, so large
a military establishment should be kept up,- unless to surround
the Government with pageantry, and with the means of exten-
sive patronage. • If the necessity of this establishment were
urged on the ground of the extension of our colonies, he would
say that the first question was the security of our finances,
which he contended were in a situation that unfitted-this coun-
try to sustain a war, if unhappily it should, for a long time to
Come-, 'be plunged in one. The Noble Lord went into some
observations upon the proceedings against the Queen, and
expressed his belief, that after the experience Ministers had,
they would not be
.se ready again to expose perjury to attc-
tion in the market of Milan.—(Hear, hear !)--Prom those
proceedings Parliament had received an incurable wound,
the rankling effects of which would not cease but with the
Constitution of this House itself. Under the hope, however,
that the success of this motion of his Hon. Friend; the Member
for Aberdeen, would, in some measure, repair the character of
this House with the country, he would give it his most cordial
assent. The Noble Lord, When he sat down, was loudly cheered.
Mr. WILMOT wished to recal the attention of the House
to the real question before the House ; and he thought if the
Noble Lord who had just sat down had abstained from intro-
ducing irrelevant topics, his opinions would have bad more
weight. In every principle of economy he fully concurred, and
in common with others he paid his . tribute of thanks to the
Hon. A4erriber for .Aberdeen.—(Hear, hear!)—ln the two
Addresses before the House, he found this distinct difference,
that one implied -a censure Upon Ministers, and he should there-
fore support the other,
Mr. CREEVEY said that the Iron. Member for Corfe
Castle was summoned on this occasion, to cover the retreat of
the Ministers froni the well-directed attacks of his Hon. Friend
the Member for Aberdeen. He trusted, however, that such
attacks, often repeated, would at length compel the Ministers to
relieve the burdens of the country, by lessening its expenditure.
Mr. HUSKISSON contended that the view which the
Noble Lord who had recently spoken had taken of the re-
sources of the country, was altogether too gloomy. He
hoped that whatever were the opinions of that Noble Lord,
the• country was still in a situation to vindicate its rights
and to maintain its station in the world.—(Hear, hear!)—
He rebutted the assertion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen,
that the Ministers pledged- themselves that the present annual
expenditure of the country was the lowest that could under any
circumstances be expected to be laid down. In .contradiction
to the Hon. Member, he would state, .that the supplies of this
year presented a reduction, as compared with laseyear, of a sum
of £1,770,000. He contended, that it would be utterly impos-
sible to bring down the estimates to the amount mentioned by
the Hon. Member. On the whole, he declared, during all his
Parliamentary experience, he never witnessed a greater misuse
of official documents than he saw effected by the Hon. Member
that night.
Mr. ABERCRO3IBY contended that there was but one
slight difference between the two Addresses—namely, that the
Address of the- Member for Corfe Castle was prefaced by a
statement laudatory of-what had been done by his Majesty's
Ministers. He said that it was now evident that Ministers
found themselves placed in a new situation, and that they no
longer relied on their majorities. He gave his cordial support,
to the original motion. To say that he was a friend to economy,
would be saying that which he would be ashamed to state, for
he considered that the man who was otherwise was an enemy
to his country,
Sir C. LONG defended the conduct of Ministers, and alleged
that they had successfully applied 'thentselveS to the reduction
of the expenditure.
Mr. MABERLEY rose amidst the loadest cries of " Ques-
tion, and withdraw !"—He contended that the Ministers had
effected nothincrlike economy.-,--(Question, question !)
-3"
Mr. HUME, in reply, said that not one statement of his
had bsen met by argument. Aftera few observations, in which lie
endeavoured to show that• no practical economy had taken place,
The Gallery was cleared, when a division took place upOn the
original motion, The numbers were—

For the Motion - - 94
-- Against it - - - - 174
Majority against it - - - ---80 •
Upon the re-admission of strangers to the Gallery, a short
conversation ensued between Mr. Brougham, Mi.. H. Sumner,
Sir C. Long, Mr, Hume,, the Marquess of Londonderry, 'Mr.
Scarlett, and Mr. G. Bennett, and the amended Address was
agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the
House adjouynpd at iIAj.F-PAiT THRTIE O'CLOcZ.