The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

t The Earl of RIPON continued—A great deal had been
said about the missing sheet, containing the names of special
jurors. Why, the person who actually lost, or mislaid, that
sheet, was a Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the loss
of the sheet was brought, not certainly as a direct charge
against the Government, but as a matter of grave suspicion.
lie had said more than he intended when he rose to address
their Lordships. He was happy to find that. the measures
which her Majesty's Government intended to pursue had met
with the approbw ion of Noble Lords opposite. He would not
pretend to say what would be the result of those measures, but
at present no opposition had been expressed with respect to
them, but, on the contrary, they had met with the approbation
of all parties. He anticipated the most salutary results.
After the Noble Earl sat down there was a pause of some
minutes; there was a general expectation that either Lord
Campbell, the Lord Chancellor, or Lord Brougham, would
have risen, but no manifestation of such an intention was made
by either of them. Lord Brougham and Lord Camp-
bell were both in the House; but the Lord Chan-
cellor
was absent ; and the Earl of Shaftesbury,
occupied the Woolsack. The pause still continuing, and no
Noble Lord rising to peak, while the Noble mover of the re-
solution also remained silent, the House grew impatient, and
there were loud cries of " Question" and '° Divide." At this
moment a Noble Lord conveyed an intimation to the Marquis
of Normanby that the Lord Chancellor did not intend to speak
upon the question at all.
The House still being impatient,
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY put the question.
The Marquis of NORMANBY then rose to reply on his
motion. He said, as he had undeestood that the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack intended to address the House,
as it was very natural he should wish to do, he had waited for
some minutes, in order that he might have an opportunity of
doing so. But he had received an intimation from a Noble
Lord near him, that it was not the intention of the
Noble and Learned Lord to address any observations
to the House. He, therefore, now rose to make such observa-
tions in reply as might appear necessary, in answer to the
speeches that had been made on the other side. Before he did
even this, he would make one general observation with respect
to some remarks that had been made on the doubtful natnre
of the motion. The Noble Lord at the head of
the Admiralty had described the motion as so in-
definite that he could riot conceive but that he
had some previous interest in framing it in such a
shape. Ile assured them that the present motion was the only
one he ever intended to make. It was true that it was founded

upon general principles—principles that might be adopted by
many Noble Lords who did not agree with hiM in politics, and
that it was framed differently from the motion made in the
other House of Parliament. But it was so framed, because it
was not usual to move their Lordships to go into a commission
of the whole House.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, having entered the House
while the Noble Marquis was speaking, here interrupted him
by saying, "Now, can I address the House now ?"
The Marquis of NORMANBY—ReaIIy, my Lords, after
the intimation made to me that the Noble and Learned Lord
did not intend to speak, and not having risen to reply till 1 re-
ceived that intimation, I think it strange that the Noble and
Learned Lord should ask me if he could address your Lord-
ships now. Having waited for some minutes to give him an
opportunity of speaking, and his Lordship not having risen, I
am not much informed of the usages of your Lordships' House,
if he has now any means of addressing you. The Noble and
Learned Lord cannot address your Lordships now ; my Noble
Friends around me will bear me out in saying that it was with
the utmost unwillingness I rose to reply ; and now when I am
explaining the purport of my motion, the Noble and Learned
Lord asks me, " Now, can I address the House now ?"

A NOBLE LORD—The Lord Chancellor can speak.
The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great warmth)—He
cannot speak now ; and I can only say if he does do so, it will
be taking a most unfair advantage of me.—( Hear, hear, and
Oh, oh.) I waited till an intimation was conveyed to me by a
Noble Friend that the Noble Lord would not speak, and then,
exercising the privilege of every mover of a motion, 1 am now
addressing your Lordships. If the Noble and Learned Lord
wishes to make any remarks on the question, it is in his power
to do it ; and if a majority of your Lordships bear him out in
it, I will say it will be a most unheard-of proceeding.—( This
was said with great energy, the Noble Marquis evidently being
much excited. )
Lord KENYON rose to order. The right the Noble Mar-
quis claimed was by no means an invariable one ; it was not an
invariable rule that a Noble Lord could silt make a speech on the
question after the mover of a resolution had replied. But if
the Noble Marquis understood that the Noble and Learned
Lord did not mean to speak, he must confess he had a right to
feel disappointed.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—I do not think the Noble
Lord has spoken to order.
Lord BROUGHAM—It is to order.—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) My Noble and Learned Friend has not heard any
argument.
The Earl of RADNOR called the Noble and Learned Lord
to order.—( Cheering. Hear, hear, and great laughter. )
Lord BROUGHAM—I speak to order. I entirely agree
with the Noble and Learned Baron who spoke from
the cross benches (Kenyon). There is no rule of
your Lordship? House that gives a natural right to the maker
of a motion to close the debate, and if we do not oppose this
new doctrine, it will have to be met hereafter, when it may
not be so convenient. The courtesy of the House—contrary
to the rule and order which prohibits two speeches from one
Noble Lord during one debate, gives a reply to the mover of a
resolution. But if I have heard it once, I have heard it a
hundred times, that members of your Lordship's House have
spoken after the reply. I have m i self been replied to by half
a dozen of your Lordships after a reply.
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, and in a voice that be-
trayed the excitement under which he spoke, said—My Lords,
I wish to explain my position. I have been in my Court from
ten o'clock this morning till nearly four ; I have sat here from
five o'clock till nine, awaiting the return of the
Noble Earl (Shaftesbury) ; the Noble Earl having
arrived, I quitted the Woolsack only for five
minutes, and during that period the question was put, and the
Noble Marquis rose to reply.—( Hear, hear.) I have no desire
whatever to address your Lordships ; the only reason why I
should have wished to address a few words to your Lordships
was that they might be explanatory of my own conduct, in con-
sequence of the imputations that have been cast on me.
(11ear,hear.) But 1 have been so nobly, so warmly, so heartily,
defended by my Noble Friends—(Loud cheers)—that I shall
never regret the accusations made against me. I have waited
till this late hour in the evening, expecting that some of my
Noble and Learned Friends would have risen for the purpose of
giving their opinions on the subject, intending to reply to them.
As they have not done so, my Lords, lam quite satisfied with
the decisive and triumphant arguments put forward by my
Noble Friends, in opposition to the charges made by the Noble
Marquis.--( Loud cheers. )
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he was glad the Noble
and Learned Lord had stated the grounds on which he wished
to have addressed the House. The facts of the case were, that
a message was brought him by a Noble Lord, that the Noble
and Learned Lord would not speak. The Noble Earl on the
Woolsack (Shaftesbury) then insisting that the question should
be put, he rose to reply.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—I did not intend to reply,
except in answer to my Noble and Learned Friends.—( Hear,
hear.) (His Lordship here began to put the question to the
House, as if for immediate division.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY (with great energy)—My
Lords, I appeal even to those mast opposed to me in politics, to
say if ever there was a more unfair proceeding.—( dear, hear,
and cheers, from the Opposition.) I was addressing your
Lordships, having first insisted on my right to do so. I then
gave way, because the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to wish
to defend himself. I sat down to give him ,ran opportunity of
doing so, and ho then puts the question.—( Hear. )
The LORD CH ANCELLOR—I beg to set the Noble
Marquis right. I said I did not wish to defend myself ; on
the contrary, I said I did not intend to do so, considering it
I unnecessary, after the admirable defence made by my Noble
Friends.—( Cheers.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded with the
reply on his motion, which had been so long interrupted. With
respect to this motion, remarks had been thrown out to the
effect that it was couched in terms less strong than was at
first intended. Ile had framed it according to the usage
their Lordships' House. It was a motion for an inquiry into
the state of Ireland, with a view to restore confidence in
the Government to the people of that country. Ile
thought that every measure calculated to restore this con-
fidence was worthy of their consideration and inquiry. He
adverted first to the state of the Church in Ireland as a cause
of dissatisfaction. As a first step to remove this feeling, they
ought to elevate the character of the Catholic priests, and re-
move the disqualifications which the Emancipation Act inflicted
on the Catholic prelates. The discontent caused by the re-
striction of the franchise he eharged directly on the Govern
merit ; a new arrangement of the representation of Ireland, as it
was settled by Lord Castlereagh at the union, was rendered
necessary by the Reform Bill in Ireland, which disturbed the
relative proportions of the representation of the two countries,
He charged the Government with a general ignorance of the
present state of Ireland ; with the exception of the illustrious
Duke, not one of the Government had any knowledge of that
country ; he had noticed the exception that was made of
Sir It Peel; he was there only in other days.—( A Noble
Lord, " Goulburn !") He defended what he had
said of the appointment of Lord Eliot, and re-
peated his charge of a disregard of public opinion
in the appointments of Baron Lefroy and Sergeant
Jackson to judicial situations. These appointments, the giving
all their clerical patronage to the most violent opponents of the
national education system, and the selection of the Attorney-
General, all proved that. ignorance of the state of public feel-
ing in Ireland of which he complained. He passed rapidly over
the circumstances connected with the proclamation against the
repeal meetings, stating that the Government was as much bound
to notice the first of them as the last, and affirming that the
preservation of the peace was mainly owing to the exertions of
Mr. O'Connell himself, from whom they had the least right to
expect assistance. He was told that the motion was ill-timed ;
whenever there was more than usual interest felt by the people
in the conduct of the Government, this was always the plea ;
it was the old answer. But he believed that one of the likeliest
means of restoring tranquillity to Ireland would be to adopt the
resolution. He denied that it was brought forward from any
wish to embarrass the Government; though he should not
have been deterred from doing what he considered to be his
duty by the fear of embarrassing it. Having replied to the as-
sertion made by Lord Roden, that they were then " reaping
the fruit of the wholesale discharge of the gaols" made during
his Government of Ireland, by showing that he remitted fewer
sentences than the Lord-Lieutenant of 11323, and having justified
his dismissal of Colonel Verner from the magistracy, (another
of the charges made against him) for giving as a toast the
" Battle of the Diamond," he proceeded to notice some of the
observations made by another Noble Lord ( Howden) in the
course of his speech. He hesitated, however, to allude to them
in the absence of the Noble Lord, who was not in his place.--
( Cries of "Go on, go on.") The Noble Marquis still pausing
on account of the ahsence of the Noble Lord—

- -
The LORD CHANCELLOR said—Speak of him, and
he'll appear.—( Great laughter.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY then proceeded to notice the
speech of the Noble Lord he had alluded to, (while he was
commencing, Lord Howden entered the House from the
library, whence he had been summoned.) He repeated that
he had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the Noble
Lord, which, from its manner, was a very agreeable one. But
he had observed that nothing was more favourably received
than a very sharp thing said by any person against those with
whom he was supposed, to some extent, to agree.—( Hear.)
The Noble Lord said that the motion was brought on with a
particular object ; he did not state what that object was. Ile
(the Marquis of Normanby) certainly would not attribute any
particular object to his Noble Friend, in making that remark.
Surely it was hardly worth the while of his Noble Friend, in
the remarks which he thought it his duty to make, to rake up
the old story of Mr. O'Connell about the old hat. That was
a story told somewhere about ten years ago, and it was intended
to apply to Earl Grey's Administration. Why it should be
used by the Noble Lord (Howden), of whose support that Go-
vernment, and other Liberal Governments, had had the benefit
in their policy towards Ireland, it was for the Noble Lord rather
than for him (Lord Normanby) to explain. Allusion had been
mule to his (Lord Normanby's) conduct in respect to the
offer of the Mastership of the Rolls to Mr. O'Connell. Ile
(Lord Normanby) begged to say, that he had never for one
moment regretted making that offer. The only regret he had
ever experienced in reference to the matter was, that that
Honourable and Learned Member had thought fit to decline
accepting it. He most sincerely thought, that if Mr. O'Con-
nell had accepted that appointment, it would have been one
of the very best things that could possibly, have happened for
the prospective prosperity of Ireland. Had he known that
the subject would have been alluded to, be would