The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 12.

The SPEAKER took the Chair this day at the usual
hour.

Mr. RIDLEY COLBORNE presented two petitions
from Dissenters in Northumberland, in favour of the Ca-
tholic Claims.

gloovesn
tih mePurted- motion
Mr. SYKES presented a petition from Doncaster
against Negro Slavery, also a petition against the. Friendly
Societies Bin.
Mr. ROBINSON moved for a return of the number of
- • .• ,
since last year. . .
Bill was postponed until Monday next. ' 1
Mr. BELL of Mr. SLANEY, the Labourers Wages
presented a petition frOm Tindal, in the
county of Northtimberlend, against the importation of
foreign wool.
% • Mr. WQUEEN presented a petition from Castlitown
Neville, in favour of the Catholic Claims.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM presenteda petition from
Carlisle, praying for a Repeal of the Stamp :•Tax on
Receipts.
Mr 'MORRISON presented a petition from Macduff,
for a bounty on Herrings.
Lord CHANDOS presented a petition from Newport.
against the importation of Foreign Corn. -
On the motion of Mr. W. LAMB, the Malicious Injury
to Property Bill was read a first time, and ordered 'to be
read a second time on Friday next.—The Administration
of Justice in Criminal Cases in Irsland Bill, was also or-
dered to be read a second time on Friday next.
Colonel CHICHESTER presented a petition from the
county of Sussex, praying for a protection on foreign wool.
Sir A. CAMPBELL presented a petition from Glas-
gow against any further concessions to the Roman Ca-
tholics. •

. Mr. HUME said that the petition did not speak the
opinion of one-fifth of the inhabitants of Glasgow.
Mr. W. NORTON presented a petition from the Eng-
lish inhabitants of Lower Canada to prove that the French
inhabitants were not those alone who lied cause to complain.
Mr. RENETT presented a petition from Plumtree, in
Somerset, praying for an alteration of the mode of taking
the averages on Ccrn.

On the motion of Mr. HOME DRUMMOND, the
Scotch Licensing Alehouse Bill was ordered to be refeyred
to a Select Committee.
Mr. TENNYSON moved that the Committee on the
East Retford Disfranchisement Bill should be postponed
until Friday next.

The Committee on the East Retford Disfranchisement
Bill was postponed to Friday next.
The third reading of the Scotch Salmon Fisheries' Bill
was postponed till to-morrow--(4his day.)
Th►e Scotch Court. of Justiciary Bill was read a third
time, and passed. The Mad-houses' (Scotland) Bill was
read a third time, and passed.
The Registry of flornings (Scotland) Bill was ordered to
be read a third time on Thursday next.
The Crown Solicitors Bill was read a third time and
pagied. •

The House resolved itself into -a Committee on :'the
Stamps Promissory. Note BA which was passed .through
Poinsnittee, and the report was ordered to be received
WedPe'llaY• - -
The Report on the *amps' Allowances Bill was brought
ty. The Amendments were agreed to. . .
Mr. HUNIE moved as an amendment, that the Distri-
butors of Stamps should have in lieu of the present per
.rentair, a per cent Age of 51/:-. The Distributor of Stamps;
in Aberdeen, received during the last year a per eefitage of
1,6381., and there were many respectable individuals in
town who were ready to perform the duty for 240 i.
per annum, and to give security to any amount.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, al-
though 24 'might be a fair per centage on stamps of a ter
tain description, It Would be too little for stamps of ano-
ther description; and he therefore suggested the propriety
of the Hon. Member's postponing the amendment until a
future occasion, when the whole system of the stamp re-
venue would be revised.

Mr. HUME persisted 'in his amendment, and said that
.he :should be -happy if the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would give him (Mr. Home) the patronage' of the appoint-.
meat of Stamp Distributors, and he would undertake to
provide persons to do it for a per tentage of 2i.—
(Laughter. ) _ _

After a few observations from the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Dawson, Mr. Alderman
Waltham% and Mr. Hume, the further consideration of
the report was postponed till to-marrow.
The further consideration of the report of the Cities and
Boroughs Poll Bill was postponed till to-:morrow. '
The Committee en tile Pensions Act was postponed till
to-morrow.

The second reading of the Galway Magistrates Bill was
postrecned to. Monday the 19th inst.
The third re3ding of the Bills of Exchange' (Ireland)
Wu was postponed.to Thursday. •
The Committees of Supplies and Ways and Means %%we
postponed to Wednesday.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
• --

A Message from the Lorda announced their Lord-
ships had agreed to the Corn (hie of Man) Bill, and several.
Private Bills.
ROMAN CATHOLIC QUESTION.

. .
Mr. C; GRANT n:oired the Order of. the Day for re-
suming the adjwirned debate ,on the Roman Catholic
Claims.

The SPEAKER having put the question,

Mr. C. GRANT rose and addressed the House. Sir,
b-dore I proceed to offer MiY remarks to the Houie upon
the subject now under. consideration, I am anxious to allude
to the feeling with which, on the other night, I ventured
to oppose the wishes of those who sought for a division on
the question, I am not in the habit of Obtraing myself
often upon the House—(Hear. hear)—and 1 am sin+ I
would have yielded in a moment' to its desires,sirthe
opinion
v or felt myself called upon byqauesstioensue,opdoiunfri
joinini:ipuetprialo.etnivveita.illu:s-
anostntbojegeitvesoaimsilpeonrttavnotte. onl annowoccabesgiotnosoren;ate:
jan—dlii::;:,
guess with with reference to the
gene of the house whileit3l,opffrirg
watched
I have so long
considerationis,Sir sguesttoionwhato
twohuigchht, ftroombethmeyfigritilmaineeillt:C?ft.
act, I have given my hest atteati°°'
• cp held. I have
which I then • adopted I have ever 'An—.
watched the progress of this
allude,held nS
unchang-
ed. Sir,
et:, a thisng_
desirous not to give a silent vote
and I have also
during a
st•a4l through whiwi:,•hnthitaltmhlcashamall:l:e'eeacbuPllisecliar.olypiiipinotentres.lntsesd'ill:nolitshitees,
sentiments of the country at large.
ftifinczt;
issue,m e merely toa
des IlsdpoT i a ii y
very long period, very often, and
circumstances, under the consi-
re
asir upon
aevicelatd
veisuah.bnij:iitece,
r. ,
hasy
e Iti
beteoyuvafitnn deemed,i
ode has,
ned
that
huaua
ndtp o:ds
etwnhuleeettvie morei
can
inlirt
never
occasion,le7i .mteit
hryflecedi:Ht look
deemed,
satisfactorypao
ritli Ot, t'o,r'itr er"7;eteuier°B:nmi'lootr errfmettaloh,o...le.fev variety of
connected with the state
n
nk
1 _the state of Ireland having at all times formed a pr0`....10
`....10 with respect to that country, until le-e
tae citief origin of her evils, the great barrier to t}..,e ini_
provement of her condition. If I bad had an o?portunity
4'. few nights :since, of delivering my
i should have eAnsidered it my duty to he:ee entered more
at large into this branch of the subject :nen perhaps is now
nceeamry ; but the debate which has already taken place,
must, r_ feel assured, have left t'4ie impression upon every
mind that this point of vi,,:w completely absorbs every
other—that it is most of all our bounden duty to consider
it with reference to the condition of Ireland, and copse-
-1 (neatly the Empire at large, as affected by the question.
. The House will not forget the speech delivered the other
II night, by the Right Hon. the Member for Kerry (Mr. M..
Fitzgerald), or the representations as to the state of Ireland,
i wl•icli that Right Mon. Gentleman then made. .To what
degree those representations may have been overcharged
if they have so been—l will not attempt to guess; whew
tber ox.not he has dwelt upon them with somewhat of the
warmth of his own strong feelings, it is not for me to
judge • but, Sir, in its main features those representations
have hem confirmed by many of the Irish Members pre-

sent. The Learned Solicitor-General fer Ireland, whose
experience upon such a matter must be very great, because
be is one of those who, in his official capacity, has been of
late frequently called upon to deal with.those persons who
are deecribed, and perhaps justly described, as the dis-
turbers of 'that country; and he has dealt with them in a
manner which reflects on him the highest •credit—the
Learned Solicitor-General, in a very able 'and elaborate
speech, expressed his opinions as coincidin& veith those of
the Right Hon. the Member for Kerry. Those opinions
?true been also confirmed by the Hon. Member for Louth,
who mast be considered a good authority on the subject, and
- not only upon this occasion, but during the last year, did
"'the Hon. Member for Kerry delhter sentiments of a
Si-
milar character, They have all, very rawly others with
them, described the condition of Ireland; and what is the
condition which they describe ? What is the picture which
they pourtray of the state of that country? Sir, it seems
by their representations, that in Ireland there is a compact
and a regularly organised body—e body, however, not re-
cognised by the Constitution, and disavowed by Parliament ;
yet, a body possessed of and exercising considerable autho-
rity, collecting great resources for the carrying on of any
plans, and able to excite or to controul the movements of a
much larger body at will. Now, Sir, if such be the case,
if there be such a body actually in existence, I care not
though the picture may be somewhat overcharged, deduct
what you please from it, if any portion of it remain behind,
I say that it is fitting in the House, it is imperative on the
Howie, to consider the matter without delay. The state of
Ireland then, Sir, will teach the Members of this Parlia-
ment a useful lesson as to the bad effects of a long con-
tinued system of bad policy—will teach a memorable lesson
as to how long the evil- influence of a bad system will sur-
vive, after the introduction of that system, and after those
'who enacted it, and those who first suffered under it, are
gotes—will teach a memorable lesson that so long as a frag-
ment ethat system remains, so long will the misery to
which it iesds testify against those by whom it was intro-
duced—so long' will the wisdom and the polity of our an-
moors be arraigned suul convicted. I think there is no
gentleman in the House who heard the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Kerry—be the prine:lnles of that. gentleman what
they may.....whe can fail to feel gene sorrow of heart at.
the miseries created by the mistaken of policy we have
hitherto pursued. The Hon.. Baronet has called upon you
to consider this subject, and he has proposed the remedy
moat likely to answer. ' Now, how has his proposition been
met ? In what manner has it been opposed? It is, Sir,
said that the Catholics will not be satisfied, grant them
what concessions we may=-that they will not be satisfied
that they will not he tranquillized. This then, is the
principal ground of opposition to the motion now • before
son ; and the assertion is founded upon statements of the
violent language, the excited tones, the vehement oppo-
sition, and the increased demands, which they have made,
• •or of which they have been guilty. Not contented with
what they have had, it is asserted that they want more, and
that they are not justified in asking for more, or at least
in speaking in strong language when they ask it. Sir,
this mode of argument is but a specimen of the way is
wiejeb all such claims have been uniformly revealed—the
veryovila of the laws have been the grounds for maintain-
ing their perpetuity. To demoralize the people, to depress
and check their better feelings, to chill or to deaden
their moral sense, to urge tiuma on to acts of evil which
arise from despair—has Steen tile plan pursued, and
then these are the very grounels put forward why that
plan should not be changed. In all well eases, such
1488 been the consequence. When it wait sou eot to abolish
the Slave Trade, the very barbarism of the Africa= was
alleged 1114 the reason against any alteration. '1;:e system, ,
it now aiepears is acted upon to a still wider extent, With
respect to Ireland. If they are in such a state as I have de.
scribed, who hal made them so? You—you have deprived
the people of that couutry of natural affection—you have
destroyed among then? the beneficial influence of the aris-
tocracy, and you have pigccd them instead, under the con-
trout of the democrat or Prieet.—ycU have deranged the
whole system—you have revel' ed the natural order of
things—you have given drit to property which you have
denied to numbers. In consequence of your decrees, the
whole course has been irregular—you have,* indeed, given
but a part of your glorious Constitution to that' country.
What portion of it you have 'given has been given by piece-
meal. Our Constitution, Sir, depends for its health and

fleecy upon its being enjoyed entiree-its very essence is
eempoise. By giving but a part of it, you torment and
afflict, instead of endear and unite. This you have done..-
yea have given a preponderating influence to one party, '
while you have refused a Counteracting influence to
another—and yet you complain of a state of things which
you have yourselves created, and may destroy—Sir, the
mass of the population of Ireland must be iadged of as we
have made it. Then we are surprised at the existence of
in aseceiatien in that country, when that association is the ,
offspring of these very laws, and which, so long as they
exist, must, in some shape or other, east with them. It
is also said that the Catholics will never be satisfied, be-
came the most violent amongst them bare the ascendancy
over them. Such must naturally be the cast. If you re-
fuse their just demands, you compel them to ask for their
rights; and, in such a course, the most skilful and the
most daring will naturally be their leaders, while the
most Moderate will be inevitably placed in the back ground.
But if you are disposed to grant them that for which they
fairly and justly ask, then the case will be reversed—the
moat moderate will have the ascendancy, and the most
violent be compelled to retire into obscurity. There ran
be no reason, there can be no grounds, for supposing any
other result. But, Sir, we are farther told, that they will '
never be satisfied with any concessions, because satisfies!
they have never yet been. We have been told that they
have gone on step by step, that demand baa kept pace
With concession, and would in so until the Church Este-
blisboaent itself was gone. The Hon. Member for Ripon
has thus put fortvard his argument on this point. About
forty or fifty years ago the Catholics were granted certain
rights, with which they expressed their satisfaction, over
which they abundantly exulted, and for which they ex-
pressed their warmest gratitude—since which they have
been eentinnally increasing in their demands. Such, Sir,
is the gist of the arguments of the Hon. Member for Ripon.
Now, dies the House know what these rights are—the
right on which the Hon., Member has so much dwelt. Sir,
they were the rights of property, of marriage, of education,
and of a free exercise of religion—were they to be satisfied
then with these? With these which awe received as
nuesearupled bounties on the part , of England ? But it
seems tlie 'CalholieS spoke of these grants in languag,e of
high exaltation. Is it fair--is it generous then, for us to
tarn round upon and reproach those men for the terms
of attachment anal gratitude which , they expressed to-
wards the British Government? If they expressed their
gratitude in unmeasuret: language for the granting ef
such rights, let us judge of the deep gratitude they
would feel if other and greater rights were conceded cto
them. Sir, it is in the nature of things, and if we
look into the histories of all , nations as well as into
the history of our own, We shall see that lig, first relaxa-
tion of Penal Laws, although previously these bed created
only iadifference or torpor, inevitably • leads ia,a swat. of
:straggles far greater relaxation, until arrived at that point
at which justice is satisfied. Ancient history informs us
that this was the case, in reference to the struggles of the
Patricians and the Plebeians of Ancient Rome, the latter
having long existed ru a state of perfect apathy, feeling the
system relaxed, struggled on till all their rights were fully
acknowledged by the former. So ix has been in our own
woggles took place between the higher
rountr, whenever
—.such struggles must al
artd the lower graua es ways be until
fair demands are granted. It is
iustice is accorded, and
contrary to reason and experience, and OPPu'ed. to the re-
, Gm., of ancient history, to anticipate eny o herresult, to
say that you can go so far and no further. It is as idle as
t would be, where the tide encroaches on the ;awl as far
as the high-water mark, to
so
place a wall between trik• mark
and its farthest receding point, least by coming far
it
should spread and inundate the country. Sir, the conduct
we have pursued towards the Roman Cath°lie's j most
,
illexplexhie—there are three ptasitions on NOW:. we might
have taken our stand; the first position is this-sew, gave
them neither toleration ner the free exercise of their reli-
gion; the second is this—we gave them both toleration,
but we gave them no privilege of civil eigiste ; and the
third might have heel] this—we might have given to thew
both toleration and civil rights—each of these is aelietiaet
maintainable position. The tirst of them occurred during the
penal code; we afterwards abandoned that, but we did not
take up either of the others. We steered between both,
we gave them toleration, and partly admitted them to the
enjoyment of civil rights. By r,
- very extraordinary acci-
dee,. we struck out the very course which we ought not—
for if tie were not disposed.to extend to them all they
justly elabled,
tve were very unwise extending to them
any portion of it• We are surprised, then, that they cora-
has been pursued towards them.
plain of the coniNct that
But, Sir, my Hon. Friend, the Member for Hipn ex-
presses his anxious fears that the quantity of those claims
would encroach on the Esteblished Church, of these realms.
prosperity of the
Sir, I am as anxious as my Non. Friend, or any Hon.
Member can be, for the welfare and the
Established Church--heing, as I am a member of that
Church, by conviction nu less than by birth and educa-
tion. I am warmly attached .to it, gnd 1 feel myself bound
to uphold and protect its interests. But 1 ask my Hon.
Friend whether the present is really a satisfactory state in
which to leave the Established Church, whether be con-
sider: be fulfils his duty to that Church, by leaving it =-
founded by the odium 14 which it is now surrotioded,r.:

Sir, for ire, own part, I support this question in a great
degree, because I am aaxieus for the security of the Esta-
blished Church, the true interests of which I feel myself
bound to defend. I am deeply desirous of upholding that
Church, but by upholding it, I mean not its temporalities
merely; I do not refer to the defence'of its civil power, or
the structure of its outward walls, but I refer to it as IP-
SpeCtS its high character, its pure tenets, and its doctrines
of peace and good will to all mankind. It is encumbered
by laws which degrade and disgrace it in the eyes of the
people—if it ceases to be respected by them who do
not belong to it—in what will its strength and safety
consist? I wish to save it from that danger which
must arise from the odium which the laws have cast upon
it, and which I believe have always been most injurious to
its true interests. Nothing can be more prejudicial to the
Established Church, than to make it the bar to civil rights,
and from it I wish to remove that dangerous odium. Sir,
the safety of the Established Church boasts not in its tern-
pond power, but in the purity of its doctrines, the exem-
plary lives of its clergy, and in the Christian liberality of
its sentiments, which, if it were not before known, must
have been proved by events which have recently taken
place—events which have proved, that that liberality
exists not in theory but in practice. In' no way can the
safety of the Established Church be so effectually insured
as by acting up to the principles of its Divine Founder.—
But when we are told of securities from the Roman Catho-
-1 lies, let us consider what is their situation now. Can we
I be more unsafe than we are at present? We are told that
there is a large, a powerful, and a united body, seeking
to overthrow by every 'means which art and cunning can
devise, the Established Church of this country. Yet we
exasperate that very body by laws of a most irksome and
degrading character, and expose the Church to the odium
of being the bar to their admission to civil privileges. To
me, it seems impossible for you to leave the Established
Church in a more unsatisfactory state. I have alluded to
the security of the Church, and I know there are many
gentlemen sincerely desirous of conceding the claims of the
Catholics, provided such concessions could be given in
such a way as to secure the interests of the Church. They
consider it right and fair that the Catholics should have
what they demand ; but they are deterred by sonic vague
apprehension of danger, not through the medium of this
House, but by the interference of some foreign power.—
Sir, I think that the beef security is in the measure itself.
At present I know that all is utterly unsafe. Still I con-
sider that the House is hound to obtain securities in every
way that securities can be given, provided such securities
are sought as are not opposed to the Roman Catholics.—
The pamphlet recently published—and published in good
season—by Mr. Knight, is most satisfactory on this point.
It proves that a state of things exist in other countries
which might, and which undoubtedly would exist here, if
a similar course were adopted. When I heard, the other
night, the English Solicitor-General, quoting a variety of
documents relative to the connection of the Roman Catho-
lics with foreign powers, I was quite at a loss to guess to
what conclusion he would arrive. But when, at his close,
to my great surprise, I found my Hon. and Learned Friend
contending that if we imposed any securities we pleased
on the Roman Catholics, they would submit to them ; this
was the very argument on which I was satisfied to rest my
cause. I always saw and felt that if the House thought
proper to place securities, and if such and such was our
law, we ought to say to the Catholics, if you wish to live
under this law, you must he satisfied to obey it. But it
has been always most difficult to say to what extent you
would place these securities—that difficulty is now re-
moved, for it appears, by various statements made in the
House, and it is shown, by the pamphlet of Mr. Knight,
how far we can go in demanding securities without inter-
-1 fering with the consciences of the Reiman Catholics. We
UtAy not, perhaps, consider it necessary to go so far, but
we are at least aware to what extent we can satisfactorily
go. The Hon. Member for Ripon expressed his strong
desire to have satisfactory securities—his complaint was,
and the usual complaint has been, that suffiuient securities
cannot be given to us. Iltit we can now see the point to
which we can go ; and we are enabled to say to the Ca-
tholics, we do not ask whether or not you will give them,
because those, and even more, you have given in other
countries. And now, Sir, I am pressed to take another
view of this subject, as connected with foreign power.—
It will ea be denied that since the long and protracted
war, which bee for some years terminated, all the nations
of Europe hare beep placed in a peculiar situation—that
all of them have been induced to examine their internal
state, with a view to prepare their resources, and together
strength so as to be ready either for war Cr peace, as the
event might he. This country Ire been thus engeged.—
It has been turning its strict attention to its finance, and
to all its ether internal affairs--trimming the vessel, as it
were, to prepare her for the storm. which might in time
gather around her. We have no; been alone in our move.
I went—the exertions and the preparations we have made,
have been made by every other European nozion. In
safety we have been arranging the state of our finances,
utterly forgetful of that fur which we might sacrifice all
else—the strengthening of ourselves in another way against
the danger that might arise. Sir, I will not dwell upon
the dreary anticipation of a war., but if a war should
some, I ask bow; considering the state in which Ireland
is at present, with what feelings could we enter ieto
it—the 'more especially when we recollect by what
almost mini:Mona interference we were not long ago
reeved from a danger the most imminent. During the war,
and before it, we stood in the almost undisputed supremacy
of the commercial world. The war (Tested, and channels
Were opened to other nations for commercial specula-
tions, And the wealth that follows them. If we leave the
wisdom to eelopt the wisest course—if we have energy
enough to act as policy as well as justice calls upon us to
act, we may for ages eAt to come retain the power and
influence we have so long held. put let no man under-
value the effect of a united people-elet no man undervalue
the importance of union at home. If there he not that
union—if in our own country there exist an evil wiakcit
impedes PUT resources, drains our treasury, and is con-
tinually acting, Po as tr.) cheek our intentions, and to ener-
vate our power. . If there be 4 part of our own dominion,
per:a:Early inviting to d foreign Power, ie the event of a
war, if it is at all times the nerd upon whielt en Attack is
to be made—for be it rerrierniieree! tbat foreign natiepe are
no strangers to the templeints which Irjend is continually,
and has been continually making. They haVe heard of
them long, end they have acted upon them. There Is no
power that can at any time he at war with this country,
which would not directly fix its eye upon Ireland, as deem-
ing it the vulnerable part of Great Britain—the quarter
upan which an attack would be most likely to be success-
ful. Are we, then, to go on in the course we have here-
tofore pursued ? Have any other remedies been proposed ?
I have heard of none. We only hear feom our opponents
that we are to dismiss the question precisely in the same
state in which it was introduced—that we are to leave
ergs just as they are, and to be at perfect liberty to re-
ject ,psis proposition altogether. We have heard, Sir, of
plans for improving the condition of Ireland—we have
heard of plans fox exploring mines, for giving education,
and for the spread of .csspitel in that country. There are
many eacellent propositions fox bettering its state, and I
heartily wish them success—but without this measure, I
firmly believe that none of them can take effect, Not that
I pretend, co one does pretend, that this measure of ,Ca.
tholic Emancipation can effectually tranquillize Ireland—,.
hut, Sir, it is nodeeheally the preliminary condition of
succesta to every other measure. All who know Ireland,
know well that 40 Jong as her present spirit remains as it
is, and has long been, so king will that ;spine counteract
every effort for her welfare and improvement—so long 01
then, her irritation be kept utneesei long will Oise he
seeejbly alive to the most galling recollections, so 1011 g
w ill her miseries continue--so long will every means to de
her' good he of none avails—so long will her progress
in arts, and her adveseesetowards happiness, be checked or
prevented. Every one who hee herrn in Ireland knows this
wa 211--no one who has not been in frelazid can be fully
effects,
'et:fithe truth of this statement. With the ppirit I
refere aital am well actinai•nteri-1 have seen it, I have Ware:h-
-i :Its;
wh how t
h totally expo'i itt° e'.edite. I know bow deeply it af-
Poiso , ell her hopes and prospects—
much subtlety it
d...„:7.iptiates itself into all
prevents rile efficacy of her uncleetakinge, and mars
i4e;novianZige,
--how compi.evly it
totally it promyotoe.s discord, anti
anti
to make her prosper—how
seeds of
di4sei.ata;oantcinsues unchanged. Jiteur Sir,
are, What course '
. . ler every portion of her sur-
face.. 1.. S.Ways
u yekthseisruimypothretahnotpaeuoesftihaenr.
; knooow,:chic:sBgtit
it
eews the
aPlre°,9wPeerttYanl •to
..are we to adopt i All
those
discontent
are. suspended—the best
oarteee4,ourstale bw
isdesiT hieugaloggTireajorat tedlsniaueeirtr:geiirepsprroogvreemssen:maotn•eg dfit:qrciepdepolt,and.
7.-. r
a.
s.e the
,„
evil
ilero of Vii it whose perpetual exertions were conetawaf
Acfetted—whotie yirteueus lahpurs were ever met by an
genius— virtues Petivit,
-'-'"—Succe--saumqdeu aaeriracitineeg'vaits.lP
of this
(Cheers,)—This is the .condition of that country, and en
these principles, I commit it to the co anside o trationhe actual
N
House. I entreat of Hon. embers to rePect ft
state of Ireland, and also on the state in Which it Pu gh t to
be. hear.).--I. have not referred to many topica
which have been introduced in the course of this discussion,
among which were—the Treaty of Limerick, and the mea-
sure of Ike Legislative Union. I have abstained from these
topics, because I thoughtthem unnecessary in a case which
aught to be decided upon its actual interests; X bas's eA.-

deavonred to place the claiins of the English and Irish
Roman Catholics not upon any of those foreign grounds,
feeling that they are founded on the eternal principles of
justice, on obligations of paramount authority, such as no
Statesman, no warrior, can shake ; they are founded on
that compact which must above all others be observed. On
these principles I appeal to the House of Commons, and
through the House of Commons to the people of England,
and I trust that that appeal will be answered at the close of
this debate ; but whether it be answered now or to-mor-
row, I know it will be successful.—(Cheers.)—I deduce
this inference from every thing that I see around me in and
out of this House.—(Hear, hear.)—ln justification of this
expectation, I might mention the case of the two Universi-
, ties, which, on all former similar occasions, were amongst
the foremast in petitioning against the Catholic Claims,
while, in the present instance, we have bad a petition from
that of Oxford, but a petition carried by no means unani-
mously ; and from Cambridge, no petitioa whatever.—
(Hear, hear.)—l know there are many Hen. Members in
this House, who are quite convinced that this question
must at last be carried ; but who are nevertheless deter-
mined not to vote for it in the preeent instance. I appeal
to these Hon. Members, and I ask them whether it be fair
or just towards Ireland—whether it be fair or just to their
own eonetituents—whether it be fair or just to the people
of England--to allow this question to be agitated and
brought forward, year after year. If, as they admit, it
must eventually be carried, why not now, while there is yet
time, give to an act of justice all the grace of an act of ge-
neresity.—(Loud cheers.)—Let, therefore, the House of
Commons take this subject into its consideration—let the
House of Commons till up tke blanks left is the Act of
Union—let those Hon. Gentlemen bear in mind those me•
morable words of Mr. Pitt, which, when they recur to my
own mind, fill me with hope,
" paribus se legibus ambat
Invietw gentes sterna in feedera mittant."
(Cheers.)—Let not foreign nations--let not foreign rulers
or statesmen, or warriors, have it in their power to refer to
that, which they will deem our weak and vulnerable
let them not know our weakness—prove to them, that, if
they reckon upon attacking 1151 through Ireland, in , any
future war, it is but a delosion.—(Hear, hear.)—Let
them see, that, having conquered other nations, we have
the magnanimity to conquer ourselves.—(Cheers.)......On
these principles it is that I beg of this House to take this
subject into its consideration ; and I now, with confidence,
leave it to your own impartiality—your own justice.--
(The Right Hon. Gent. sat down amid loud cheering.)
Colonel DAVIES, never having ventured since he had
bad the honour of a seat in that House to express his
opinions on the subject then under discussion, trusted he
might be allowed now to trespass on the attention of the
House for a few moments. He confessed that he felt at
first disposed to give to the motion of his Hon. Friend a
decided negative, convinced that the question was not so
much connected with the existing evils of Ireland as its
supporters had contended; and also that the agitation of
it at the present moment, so far from producing benefit,
would have a directly contrary effect. He admitted that
he had heard much of eloquence during this debate; but
must confess that he had beard very little new in argu-
ment. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down had spoken of the indefeasible right of the Catholics
of Ireland to enjoy the privileges they sought. To that
assertion of the Right Hon. Gentleman he gave his decided
negative. Every State had, and ought to have, the power
to impose such restrictions upon any portion of its popula-
tion as should be deemed necessary to the safety of such
State. The right contended for by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was founded upon abstract principles; and, if we
were to admit abstract principles at all, to what extent might
they not he carried? The rights of females might equally be
defended Nye abstract principles.—(A laugh.)—Yet who
would venture to advocate them? Much stress had been
laid upon Treaties, hat he thought that part of the sub-
ject had been exhausted, and should not, therefore, trouble
"the House on it. If the claims of the Catholics rested on
no more solid foundation he could see no case made out
for conceding them. His Right lion. Friend, the Knight of
Kerry, had drawn a formidable picture of the Catholic Asso-
ciation—that it exercised its power over six millions of men,
and that it moved them as a piece of machinery, and as if
they were animated with hut one soul. When he heard
that, and when he heard the Solicitor-General for Ireland
state that Ireland could never be tranquil until the
Catholic Claims were 'conceded, he (Colonel Davies)
must confess that he felt himself much astonished ; but
still he could not go the length of saying what had been
asserted by his Hon. Friend, for if we went so far, we must
go still farther—indeed, SQ far as to grant emancipation
tinconditionally.—(Cries of No, no. )—He understood the
meaning pf that cry—it meant that the motion was only
for a Committec,-.bnt the resolutions of a Committee were
only confirmatory of the opinions of the Wane. The
people of England were decidedly adverse to the claims of
the Catholics at present—a case of paramount necessity
must; therefore, be made out before the measure could be
carried. Moreover, when he heard the statements made
by other Hon. Chotlemen connected with Ireland, who,
instead of advocating concession, called for additional re-
strictive measures, he was additionally fortiOed in his own
objection to the motion. If, indeed, the Hon. Baronet
had moved for the appointment of a Select Committee to
inquire into the state of Ireland, and to report whether or
not this measure was necessary, in that case he would have
supported his Honourable Friend's motion. It was
always painful to bins to differ from his Hon. Friends
with whom he was in the habit of acting-4ot he could
not sacrifice his principles. AU that Ireland required was
justice—(Loud cheers from the opposition)—not that spe-
cies of justice which Hon. Members contended was to be
found io the epnceeeion of Catholic Claims, but that jus-
tice, that protection, which the people ought to receive
from the laws, and tenants from their landlords.—(The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to argue against the assertion
that all the feelings of the Catholics were engrossed by the
subject before the House—drawing a directly contrary in..
ference frogs ;:heirluiescence after the defeat of the ques-
tion lees year.)---Fer the peesantry the concessions sought
would do nothing, but he would admit that when the pea-
sent was ground down by oppression, and when he was
told that Catholic emancipation would remove that oppres-
sion, the peasant very naturally said, "Then give me
prpancipation ;" hence the number of petitions. The
Hon. gentleman said he should not further trespass upon
the time of the House. He wished be could have sup-
ported the motion of his Hop. Friend; bait, for the rea-
sons he had stated, he felt bound to give to it tt 4ecided
negative.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN admitted that he felt strongly
on the question before the House, but if he felt strongly
for Irish prosperity, lie also felt strongly for English secu-
rity. The Hon. Member ler Worcester denied that the
Irish Catholics had an indefeasible claim tq peliticel eights,
, but he eeigbt as well have denied his claim to existence.
Every man was entitled to the right conferred upon him
I by his God, and could not be deppiyed of them unless he
should have forfeited them by his own miecoodna. The
Hon. Member had referred to the Treaty of Limerick. He
Concurred with Op Hon. Member in viewing the present
question not as a questieoe of way tp he determined by any
treaty, but as a question of justice, to kg &pilled on by
the common sense, sound understanding, and good and
liberal feeling of the House of Commons. The Irish Ca-
tholkcs had lost their lands and their liberties ; the former
were irretrieyably ekienated? but was it surprising that
they should pray that the latter be (stored to tiara?
In proof of the respect the Irish people ez,g.erpaiff4 fpF
the principles of justice, the Honourable Member here
quoted the well.known words of Sir J. Davies, and
proceeded to take a review of the state of Ireland during
the lot fifty yearn, dwelling upon the fact that, in 1782,
there were not :?,pop troops in frelepd—the defence of the
Aokiptyy resting npon the volunteers, who amounted tp
100,060 41,en, wiPh 300 pieces of cannon. ln eight or
ten years afterwards plip volunteers were 44;arrned—wha't
was the consequence ?—that, I'm, there were
170,000 troops in the country, and a necessity Or cheep ;
while, in 1782, as be had already said, when the peoPia
were united and tranquil, there were not 5,000. At the
present moment ,th9K, were thirty thousand troops there,
independently of five thnusand police, a force that might,
in a great measure, be dispensed with, were t-faninillity re-
stored, and which might be effected by Catholic
palfop. pe had in his possession the copy of a communi-
cation sent by t.ua ktethority of Mr. Pitt to Lord Fingal and
Dr. Troy, requesting 'them to keep the Catholics quiet en
the subject until a favourable opportunity, and paw •
lies accordingly remained silent in 1801; 180% 1801
18044 A7,3,il at last, being abandoned by their friend's of
the Union, they weery obliged to appeal to the Opposition)
and Mr. Fox, to bring forward th.eie claims before the
United Parliament. As to the charge against the Catholic
clergy, that they exercised their spiritual influence to affect
the iiiieg;ekee of the people, if this was the fact, it was
hut the result of the 4.1 condition of the laws against the
CatholiCs. Clarendon was an autboe4 the Catholics,
notwithstanding the'sUperstitions of their religion, atiiierP4
IShi.,•'Elily to the Crown. If a change had t'aken place in the
,Catholic religion pippe that time, the change was effected
by the oppressiVe laws affecting th4Onl So long ago as the
reign of Charles the .ecOnd, the Irish catholfc.s deelavedr
k-
in an address to the King, that they disclaimed and beid
abominable tie doetrice of the Pope having power to
communicate Kings. It was *0 'aid that the. Pope oe
his spiritual authority to excite the Catholics tq discontent
and disturbances against the constituted authorities; tPt
this was contradicted by the fact Ait the ?or hinr3flf
sd'

framed the Catholic Bishops` oath or allegiance ba
King, and that the Catholics had in their Church service
was
pa rs any
oe rt
bfoyr
pt hr
aey
resa I
at hl
na
en d t
bwelfare of
Catholics his
AiajestY
provedbutht elirt
attachment to the state, but by paying onerous taxes until
they were unable to pay any more, and the National Debt
of Ireland amounted to 150 millions; the country was
declared bankrupt, and obliged to take the benefit of the
Act. But the Irish did not merely pray fur the King, but
they fought too for him. They could point to their cam-
paigns, their victories, their blood, and their scars, suffered
in the defence of England. There was not a great battle
since the Revolution in which the Irish did not distinguish
themselves, at Ramillies, Fontenoy, Cremona, and other
places—well may they exclaim with the Trojan Wanderer—
', Qum regio in terris nostri non plena laboris."
In the course of years, from the Revolution of 1688,
downwards, the number of Irish soldiers in the service of
foreign countries was not less than 450,000. After the
French Revolution, the English Government, changing
their
tbirpe Duke of itziames
lan,tooklrFishmen into, and a name--non, theirnaserveicen;among
was inter
here-
ticus nominandum—General Count Daniel O'Connell ! ! !
The Hon. Member for Westminster had argued for a Select
Committee of Inquiry on the Question : but where was
the necessity of such an inquiry ? Had they not, in the
evidence taken before Committees of the Lords and Com-
mons, abundant proofs of the necessity of this measure ?
proofs that the Catholic Clergy used their influence to
keep down insurrections, and preserve the peace ; and that
the Catholic Association tended to effect the same laudable
objects. Why then should Hon. Members attack these
bodies, and charge them with a contrary conduct? Was
it just ?—Was it fair ?—He had the authority of Theohald
Wolfe Tone, an Irish Emissary, not of the Catholics, but
of the Dissenters, who stated in conversation with Hoche
and Carnet, in Paris, that the Irish priests could not be
expected to aid in his plans of 'rebellion. If the Catholic
Clergy of the present day were opposed to England, what
made them so? The oppressive nature of the laws. But
what was the ,opinion of Abe most eminent Protestant
Clergymen on the Catholic Religion and the Catholic
Queition? DOctor. Watson,- of the Univerity of Cam-
bridge, laid it down in bis . book, that no man
should be abridged of his natural rights on account
of his religion. The Bishop of Landaff said, there
was no other way to put en end to heart-burnings in Ire-
land, but by the concession of the Catholic Claims. The
Bishop of St. Asaph (Horsley), held that there was no-
thing in the Catholic religion inconsistent with it:o,34y to
the Crown, and the Catholics were as good subjects as
others. And the Bishop of Norwich declares, that the
Catholic and Protestant had one religion—Christianity;
and that without safety to the Catholics, there could be no
safety for the Church. What was the declaration of the
Hon. Member for Louth against these, venerable authori-
ties The Hon. Gentleman having alluded to "Vestry
abuses in Ireland, denied that the Catholic Clergy used in-
timidation to compel the peasantry to educate their chil-
dren in the Catholic religion. The Catholic Clergy were
also accused of discouraging marriages between Protestants
and Catholics; and of that too they were accused by men
who could not forget that those same Catholic Clergy of
Ireland were liable one hundred years ago to death, and at
this very day might be transported beyond seas for marry-
ing a Catholic and a Protestant. Ile had felt it his duty
to argne thus in support of the question, as he was con-
vinced there could be no peace in Ireland without it. If
Irish Gentlemen did not take a part in it, they exposed
themselves to calumny and misrepresentations. This tin-'
fortunate question excited asperity of feeling in every house
in Ireland, from the cottage to the mansion. The discon-
tent of Irishmen could not be put down by force, but by
conciliation. They are animals of a nature not to be tamed
down by harshness, for, if persecuted, they would retreat,
to their fastnesses, and issue forth again in the destructive
character of Ribbonmen or Orangemen. The opponents
of this measure were exposing the country to danger.
There were Irishmen daily coming over from America,
cool, stubborn, and resolute Republicans, enthusiastic with
admiration of Washington's glory and Washington's prin-
ciples, and indignant at the condition of politics of their
enslaved country. If the opponents of this measure would
not yield, he warned Ministers that their conduct (for be
knew of what stuff these Irish Americans were made)
would lead to a separation of the two countries. They had
lost many opportunities of adjusting this question—in
1805, in 1809, in ISIS, in Ibl7, in 1919. They had
lost another noble opportunity also of giving peace to Ire-
land ; namely, when his Majesty visited Ireland—=that me-
morable occasion, the most glorious he ever beheld—he
beheld Louis the Eighteenth, on his restoration to the
throne of France, the day he entered his metropolis,
surroundesi by thousands of armed men, and attended by
Kings, and Princes and Generals, and the greatest Cap-.
taro of the age, holding the keys of Paris in his hand—he
also beheld when his Majesty George the Fourth landed on
the shore of Ireland, the harbinger of peace and concilia-
tion, not guarded by a military procession of pomp and
form, but surrounded by thousands of unarmed Catholic
peasants flocking round their Monarch with hearts full of
love and loyalty, and welcoming him to their country with
shouts of joy, and triumph, and exultation--a sight that
abounded with more of the moral sublime than all the
military pageants of victorious armies. That glorious op-
portunity they had for conciliating Ireland—but they letit
go, and they would never get such an opportunity again.---.
This question had the authority of the highest names to
support it-Locke, and Burlemaqui, and Dr. Johnson,
and Pitt, and Burke, and Fox, and Sheridan, and
Whitbread; and Sir S. Roma's?, and Canning. It was
ridiculous to suppose that, under existing circumstances
the country would remain quiet. He called on. that great
assembly to extend justice to all his. Majesty's subjects, and
he trusted that, while the British lion continued to guard
with one arm the King and the Constitution, it would
never stretch forth the other to tear in pieces the charter of
Irish liberty.
Lord ENNISMORE assured the House he was unwill-
ing to press himself upon their attention at that stage of a
protracted debate; but recollecting that he was amongst'
the representatiVes of the people, and feeling that he him.
self represented a large body of his Majesty's subjects, he
conceived himself called upon to speak their sentiments
and hie own in the face of that Assembly and of the coun-
try at large, in spite of all minor considerations. When he
remembered, however, how many great men had gone be-
fore him in advocating this measure, and bow many
speeches had beer delivered that were irradiate with the
purest light of genius, it was as foreign to his wish as it
was beyond the scope of his abilities, to attempt to enume-
rate all the arguments that bad been adduced against laws,
which were a disgrace to the 'age in which they lived,
which were opposed to the spirit and precepts of religion,
and were at utter variance with that justice which nature
had implanted in the beaft. He would net follow the
Hon. Member for Ripon, in his tour through /mat:play ;
he would not allude to the Treaty of Limerick ; or to any
other obsolete act, or compact ; but he would take his stand
on the grounds of expediency, which was in accordance
with the seiedem and spirit of the age. When Hon. Mem-
bers called on the Legiilatnre to renew the disabilities un-
der which Tiornan Catholics had laboured, he entreated
them to consider what was the degree of advantage prat!,
ticelly attendant upon the laws as they then existed.
He would ask them if the advantage was not at best
disputed and problematical, while the evil was certain
and growing ; giving to our Government in Ireland a
character of blood, and continually operating as a bar to
the permanent happiness of the people, to civilization,
and 'national it.aproyernents7 He believed there were
men enjoying targe revenues in the Chorcle who argued
against the measure, upon principles something selfish, and
who said you must not deprive us of our great emoluments,
without considering the situation of the Roman Catho-
lic Clergy without considering that they were oppressed,
and that they would not chose to have them come hetween
the wind and their nohility- Tint when he saw individuals
dietingiiished for their rank and eminent ' for their piety,
forgetful of the great. maxim, ‘, Do unto others as you
wopid be siOtie by," he felt it would be in vain for a person
so humble as himself to address any 'admenition to them.
object
Ise);
ecifurtio—ourindorat,slekilgi,ri
eolnyh as
aefire:o,
as inrel
promoteas tan point these laws were
waspea
peace
concerned,and goo fdo r t
wille
AroPr?gaP mop, while in Ireland religion had been made only
the sourcil of hitter bigotry and malicious controversy.--.
And he needed not to tell the Heine, that where society
was distracted, property must be insecure. Such was the
state of Ireland, and such must it ever be, though of course
Chequere4 With brighter and happier moments, until these
baneful lavvs were repealed. And he would now turn to
the English Members, and ask them of what use had been
these laws to them. Were they not an ever peinful thorn
in their side ?—or would they undertake to say that Eng-
land was sicher or stronger by their means, or that through
them she had enjoyed more safety, honour, of repose. For
himself, he did•not think that all the advantages that had
been anticipated would flow from Catholic Emancipation,
but many certainly would. He thought, too, that they
would appear only by a .10F, 3114 progressive step, bot
eheir utility would not be on 'that account the less. One
mighty advantage would be, that they would digest of their
euthority those indiviuuals who now guide and command
all the powee mental and physical of Ireland. He slid
not agree with the Hon. Member who had spoken before
him in hie opinion respeCting the Catholic AssociatioP.
He thought, on the contrary, that there was little hesi-
tation upon the part of that Assembly to revile the best
and noblest, or to attack all that was venerable in their

country. He was, therefore, decidedly of opinion that
the Catholic Association ought to be suppressed, but not
with-
out avail. It was still possible, that for a brief period
they might be successful; but there was a fire in existence.
toy eoercive measures—sttahretyuphadagabeein ninal4reuaodo.y....trii.aied4ttimaiptsieolhnsia..binrti_tesi
that never could be extinguished, excepting by allaying
discontent throughout the country; and snaking it obvious
to every mind that the only desire and object of the Go-
vernment was to render equal justice unto all. It might
be said that the' Parliament could in its omnipotence
crumble this unconstitutional power into pieces, or dash
it into atoms, but he begged them to recollect that Par-_
liament was wont to employ its wisdom before it resorted
lit
eot t
would
ttobsue
lmdstilldestroyomnipotence.ri
s tl
the Catholic.
TheyCaa
tpliiocel i should
neix Association
frfrom
m iits
s consider,
o wa
as
n they might,
with
t hi
ut
renovated might.—or like the water-serpent, who, though
it has once disappeared under the placid surface of .t
.ile
weight with the House, still he-
waves,
tiosthygeermtanstutroe .loaccede
ins`' may
so r,
le motion of the Honour_
umnblew
agsa
able
lalifesnepo..Btuhal
der
He
a•
nepevtlkea co(beesu,wit
it o* destroy
utFthtralaetn
netoi o
beggeddelay
all
Burdett)t hat i
vi'l'i math the least
While it could yet he granted as a boon, and
wait till they were called on by a' more impera-
tive was entreated by the Roman Ca••
tnhootlitcos,
tive necessity. He wished to say one word upon the sub-
ject of securities, and that was, that if his Majesty's Mi.
1 nisters would bring any measure forward, and say what
were the securities they would wish, he, for one, would
be most happy to pay all possible attention to their pro-
position. But, he must at the same time take leave to say,
that in his opinion all the securities which could be de-
sired for good order amongst tho people, the stability of
the Constitution, and the welfare of the country were in-
corporated in that measure then under the consideration of
, the House. He was convinced that germs of every ad-
vantage and improvement were to be found in emancipa-
tion .to the Roman Catholics, and that were it once
passed, the germs would be seen successively sprouting
forth under the sunshine of national prosperity. He
thanked the House for the attention with which be had
been heard. He had simply endeavoured to explain his
heartfelt sentiments. He was firmly attached as any man
could be to the fabric of our liberties, and u the Esta-
blished Church, but in the same proposition in which he
held these, and the others dear in that proposition, was
his anxiety to see those stains which intolerance and in.
justice had cast upon them, washed away, and to have
Ireland at length rendered an available portion of the
empire, by being permitted the enjoyment of civil and
religious liberty.

GEORGE BANKES said, that the pleasure with
which he heard the speeches delivered by the Right Hen.
the President of the Board of Trade, and the Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland, was accompanied with pain when he
reflected on the consequences they were likely to produce.
He feared that as coming from individuals of distinguished
talent who were connected with his Majesty's Government,
they would lead to expectations upon the subject of the pro-
posed measure, being more generally entertained than they
ever bad been at any former period. The Right Hon.
Secretary, for Ireland had declared that this measure was
not merely the best, but the only measure for Ireland, and
he (Mr. George Bankes) thought that when the Right
Hon. Gentleman spoke in these terms of a measure which
must have been long under his deliberate consideration ;
that the House had a right to expect that he would have
been able to tell them not only you should do it, but also
how it was to be done. He knew that it was customary
for Hon. Gentlemen on such occasions to turn round and
say, " Go ask the Government—we only lay down the
outline—it is for them to complete the design." But, he
thought, that when language so decided had been made use
of, that he was justified in expressing his regret that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had not thought proper to enter
into details. His Right Hon. Friend, the President of the
Board of Trade, had spoken of fragments of the Constitu-
tion ; he wished he had been more explicit upon the sub.
ject ; but letting that go by, he would observe that he
could not divest his mind of considerable alarm at an
illustration which had been made use of by hie Right
Honourable Friend. He had said look at the Scottish
Members in the House of Commons—do they give any dis-
turbance to our religious establishments—do they attempt
to derange that to which we are so justly and naturally at-
tached ? Well then, he would ask, what did his Right
Hon. Friend propose—that Roman Catholics should be
admitted into that House on the same principles as the
Scottish Members? The Scotch certainly did not attack
the Established Church, because their own exists by the
same charter, and because the same laws confirm both.—
But was it so with the Roman Catholics, or did the Right
Hon. Gentleman mean to propose that the Roman Catho-
lic Church should be also made a superior Church, and so
placed on the same footing with those of Scotland and Eng..
land. He thought, too, the illustration was not fortunate,
in other respects.. The Scotch Members might not have
acted directly against the public weal; but had they never
acted in a body against political measures supposed to be
for the public weal. It was not necessary to go very far
back for an instance in which a measure of this nature had
been resisted, and resisted successfully by them ; and their
conduct was pointed out as being the result of such a'
Union as never did occur before, and never would
Again. He wished to • suggest to the Hon. Baronet
(Sir F. Burdett) who had brought the question forward,
that it would be desirable for the House to hear what
means be had to offer of obviating the difficulties arising
from the Union with Scotland. The security in Scotland
was much stronger than any that could be offered for Ire-
land, for in Scotland each candidate was compelled to make
an oath, in which was embodied a test and declaration si-
milar to that which were taken at that table. It had been
argued that similar securities to those in Russia might be
adopted ; but it was to be considered that in that country
there was no contribution to the Catholic Church. Among
the speeches which were delivered, he had directed his at-
tention chiefly to those of the /tight Hon. Secretary for
Ireland, as well from the respect he entertained for their
talent, as from the circumstance of their possessing means
of collecting the best and most extensive information. His
Hon. Friend the Solicitor-General for Ireland had said
how can you, considering circumstances, be worn off
them ; you are at present, since you have as it is the repre-
sentation of the Catholic Priesthood—men chosen by them
for their vigour—their activity, their eloquence, and per-
haps even' their violence—you have, in fact, the influence
of the Priests in its most noxious shape." Now he (Mr.
Bankes) differed from his Hon. Friend, though he admitted
the truth of what he stated, for he could fancy a
power much more noxious and more violent than any, that
had hitherto appeared in the House. A Noble Lord opposite
(Lord F. Gower) had said he would prefer that a certain
number of the leading orators of the Catholic Association had
the power to vent their malevolence is that House rather
than elsewhere. He (Mr. Bankes) thought the Catholic
Association was an insult to the Legislature, and ought
to be put down ; but if no other means could be devised
for doing so, excepting for those of introducing its Mem-
bers into Parliament, he had rather it continued to exist
for ever than that they should be fooled into adopt-
ing a worse remedy. The orators of that Association had
libelled the Duke of York in his dying moments,
and
a
never yet was there so gross a libel that remained unpunish-
ed. He had beard, with unqualified pleasure, tbe just
tribute of admiration and applause, which had been offered
BaronetT with h himself,
i respecttus
et, if he did not
to anotherer
say that he had re
com-
mentingelfronceved awith sensible regret what had
With which this
to the Noble Duke at the Head of the Government, by
the Hun. Gentleman who had brought the motion forward,
, aft
g
but he would not beio.ansac.tteisr. fi
ea with
h lion.i
B
e
distinguished personage used to come to a decision in his
judicial capacity, expressed his surprise at the ready and
rfalealent
afrni
urnpootbnbaletth eehlal
gravityi d slowness
decided way in which he had acted upon a late occasion.
But the charge was utterly unfounded. If that Noble and
Learned Lord had, after acting on certain public prin-
ciples for a period of half a century, suddenly turned
round and adopted'new ones, then, indeed, there would have
been some colour for the accusation so unkindly brought
against him by the lion: Baronet. That Noble Lord
being no longer in any responsible office, was no !auger Si
fit object of attack either in that Assembly, or 'elsewhere.
—(fear.)--The feelings he entertained on this subject—
feelings which were in no degree changed or altered by
that Noble person being or not being in an official situa-
tion—would, he trusted, excuse his having occupied the
attention of the House so long upon this subject. The Hon.
Baronet who had opened this debate bad directed thei!•
at-
tention to the qui-Tie offered by the different countries Of
Eur Ope and South America. „AO,' iipoa them
to look to what'was 'going on in different parts
,s pro_
the
civilized world. He would adopt the Hon. Baronet
posal. He said, then look to what was doing in Italy, in
Spain, and in Portugal.—(Laughter and hear.)—Could
the House forget what had passed in the country he had
last mentioned since the last discussion they had had upon
that subject? jfthey looked to the much boasted libera-
lity of the New World, with its Constitutions, was the
picture offered them of a brighter bue ? Look at Mexico,
for example, with its Constitution. Its Constitution was
lauded as that of the Liberal Cortes ; butt what was the
Constitution of the Liberal Cortes? It was a Constitution,
one of the
fundamental articles of which was, not to admit
within the limits of their empire or authority, the exercise
of any other religion but their own.—(Cheers.)—ln other
parts of South America; it Wa' true, they had had charters

GE of concession and liberty of conscience, in faVollt 01, the
friends the English ; but those charters were burnt
f to
hands of the common hangman. —(Hear. )—Withreir'
France, it was said that the bigotry swltich once 'or
'would rove; like it"-
guished her was no more, and a Noble Lord, wt. ;4 pi-
dressed the House from the opposite side; ha." ~.tratisasistat
when Jesuitism had arisen it was dest- "". we" -Ihs,a
A laugh)-sswl,' -4140'
the avenging God like a venomous ser"ledbhuYtthhee
Banker) was afraid that it
headserpe ‘nvtasthpeuyshhpdaddhaetrarnd nins—o(ne
?keg
(Laughter.)—lt Was of little cones .ese in anote:ars
he had an arrow in his vitals es ~quence to him sty
referred to the domino-- snot.—(Laughter.)-=PLd
on the other aids ..cs to which his Rt. Hon. t, ~,elf
that the 10' nad alluded, and had satisfied nit
thls „sin pursued by Prussia could in no degetor
country, unless they were prepared to go the :n(4
length of the Hon. Baronet's proposal, namely, to no
securities as trifles, as baubles fit only to amuse eb,''SeS
and be the ridicule of men. If they were thus to
the example of Prussia to the extreme, he was readYlo4
mit there would be some chance of calming the 41
spirits of. Ireland. But unless they were prepared !el;
coed as the Government of Prussia had done, to agree, re
those of a religion opposed to their own—to those 01 el
ligion which hated theirs—that they should pay nothilial
Pathe maintenance of the Established Church, (for, /I
the Protestant Church was really the great grieveele
which they complained)—unless they were ezeused ":0
the payment of tithes—whatever concessions" migtO
made to them—whatever privileges accorded—there SI
be no tranquillity. With respect to the privileges 00,
to in the treaty which had been mentioned, the reasooll
no mention was particularly made in it of ParliMe7,j,
privileges was, that at that time, and in all times Pre.r.itt
the Roman Catholics had enjoyed those privilegi
manner which made it impossible that any stipe'
should have been made for them. Let the.Housee
consider in what way it was they held their sots is
liament. This point was material in two respects :•••••• 110
of all, as respected that particular treaty to which be 0,
alluded; and secondly, it was material, because it we'..l
doubted, that if Ireland hadbeen governed by.a Parline
composed of Irish Papists, unrestricted by any- ostbfeire
guments might be founded upon the Government ;la
land at that period, which might now be applied Woe
present question. But let the House look to the fol
tory of the Parliament in Ireland, and they wouleUi
facts utterly inconsistent with the proposition so 10150
laid down by the Hon. Member for Dublin. Cat",.,ts
might sit in the Irish Parliament in the reign of Elixir.,
but she, aware of the difficulties that would arise frens'lo,
testants and Catholics sitting together in the same 11°,
the latter unrestrained, in order to provide against to;ii
directed writs to be issued to such counties only thatt,l
thought likely to return Protestant Members. Thus Ile '
twenty counties only ten sent Members to Parliamentre
ing her reign. That was the state of the Catholics With ty
spect to their privilege of sitting in Parliament during
reign of Queen Elizabeth. On the accession of Jamey 4)
First to the Throne, the same principle was mainte7o
that had been acted upon in the reign of Elizabeth. It bp;
true he issued writs to an additional number of placeet.sd
those were places where he was assured of the sentiee'o
of 'those who were to return the Member. It wasiseti
the reign of Charles the First, that that principle We
It
manner given up. Then, in the year 1634, the Pronest)
tants and Catholics in the Irish Parliament were nest)equal in numbers, and they would find in a letter of o
Strafford's, preserved to our times, that there was
cisely that state of things in Ireland which might haveleei
expected from such an arrangement. The noble write
the letter stated, that in discussions and divisions, no
Protestants were all on one side, and the Catholics Jo
the other. Lord Strafford at the same time stated, 'oe,
this arose from no ill feeling on the part of the Cath ,t,
toward,' the Government, or from a wish to embarrao
fot
proceeding, but that they adopted this course merelY
the sake of showing their power, and forming fort he Is
selves that predominant interest which should enable ticto,
to regulate the supplies that should be granted tbe,
iii
vernment. It had been said upon the strength 0, ye,
that the Catholics were as faithful as subjects cord oaf
and that if they were now treated in the same manner, be
would be equally faithful. That might be true, ita,
would even grant that many of them supported the 000
rests of the Established Church ' • but when the Ks te
then accused of resembling the religion then called leoPf:it
came to consider how nearly the Established Church s ,
the merit claimed for the Catholics on that account, s
suffer some degree of diminution. It was not, howe
his desire now, or on any occasion, to diminish from"
high or pleasurable feelings the descendants at. the SP
Catholics of that day must have, and which had bid
eloquently described to them, in thioking, of the cat
0 f their ancestors. He concurred in the praise that..„'"
been bestowed on them by the Hon. Baronet. He r_
fectly agreed in what had been stated, that throughout n
whole history jealousy existed on the part of the Catbei
with respect to the authority of the Pope, but he thouto
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough had not treated
Noble and Learned Friend fairly in his allusion to
statement made by him. His Learned Friend he und!h
stood to mean, when he had alluded to the struggles wh;
took place bet Ween our RoMan Catholic ancestry 104, e
Pope, that in spite of their opposition of his powers 6'o
tinual innovations were made by him. It was the feat d
his power and encroachments that procured the patella
the statute of premunire, a statute which made tber.''t
that passed it so odious to the Pope, that he gave his 11-r,
dom over to another. At the same time that be oily
tamed the opinions he had thus expressed, he b,_se„se
utmost respect for those from whom he differed in ret:ol
points, as also for those who now urged their claims, clad
which were now urged more strongly than ever they 101 l
been before. This was the reason, perhaps, why, be ty
felt himself called upon to speak more strongly CPO °. la
question, than he otherwise should have done; be
trusted that in speaking thus strongly, he should a"`.
construed as meaning any disrespect towards any Pella
whatever, but least of all towards his fellow-subjeet'''
English Catholics._( Hear, hear.) vit°
Mr. J. T. DENISON said, the Hen. Gentlemall
cathoso
had just addressed the House had asked how
Emancipation was to be carried into execution ? Wfnitr,
be carried into execution by going into the proposed „,s '
ear,whaesar.)
mittee.—(Hear, hear.)-110 admitted that there seas,,.:o(
great disinclination to the concession of the esu"sas
Claims in many parts of England, but -imperious ne`lol
city had forced them on the consideration of men, and t•oe
gradually wearing the disincliast'
011RTH—I was anxious, Sir, to have spoke° i°l
to the Hon. Member for Code Csiiti;
for few speeches I have ever heard have given ate v3.4)hel I
real satisfaction than that pronounced this night by '.os
ma considerationweAad fryi a.e Nly(inreply
Hon. Member, differing as I do altogether in the sone,llo
to which he has come. Sir, I hail the course which
Hon. Member has taken in that speech, and feel haPP,?`„,
the progress he made in the line of argument he to nip
I rejoice ; for he endeavoured, and seemed conteate", .
obtain a triumph—over what?—Over a parallel-savor
comparison, an allusion. He quarrelled, net with to
talent*, but with similes. He thought it not beneath bp
to deal with metaphors—he disdained not to devote_.o
strength to the overthrow of an illustration, and his rritos
to the condemnation of an allusion. Me did not tre'ser
to grapple with one single argument on which the
tion will have to be ultimately decided.—(Hear, beaf')
Does that Hon. and Learned Msmber; when he asks
are ready to point out the manner in which we are tetio
rive at Catholic Emancipation--does he imagine the "1
puts the question really before the House? In Po is/
form, and appearance, the question is, whether of
shall emancipate our Catholic fellow-countrylflellase
not ?—bnt, in reality, the practical question Wea at
to decide is, whether we are to tranquillise Itelsn
sot? When the Hon. Member asks me whether I
saci
ready to point out the manner in which Catholic Sn' of
pation is to be effected, I ask him, in return, is be reisi,
to point out the manner in which Ireland is to be !:sed
quillised ?—(Hear, hear. )—What scheme has he icas,,7o
should scheme
prepared—for the House in its I"-
ye
should go on from year to ear as we have 'tithed(' qt,
on—(itear)— I and his plan are, that
and Session after Session, but, never decide—(Cheerenai
to what
adopt ban
mhtab.sly:htewhies
that we should continue to strive with a balanced
,0;
dealiberate night after at.,
vernment and a balanced Legislature, every mats 119414
back and rendering the national wisdom neptlak any rola
give on a subject, and in a conjanctere, in ivtich it s_,Pi°
be displayed in the most striking manner, and 11" ;is
pest resources brought forward with the most energem
decision. Sir, we must not concral from ourselves
question is not here either of the Treaty of LiWer:io
or what took place at the Union, or of any even'
history which bay been referred to,—but that its
ii
what is the actual state of things ?—(Hear.)
itza
' %he actual state of things that is pressing upon us,
forcing us to a decision, if indeed we are to yield to sati
eurnstances at all. I rejoice that the questions raised tee
the Treaty of Limerick and upon the Union have Pile/
entirely put out of this debate.—l am sorry thaebessa
were ever introduced into it, and regretted when feet
the Hon. Baronet who brought forward this motiollso,
so much of his argument upon these two points. de.
pose I was to yield to the arguments of the Right o:ajj,
Secretary, that the Treaty of Limerick is of no
r 11tp
that no right can be claimed upon it—that I further re
Cr
persuaded that at the time of the Union no pledgesr

• a s
/Ls
'eauads on w 1
?rpm wider us
; • foritizt nseasu
Hon. Member
to have !about
be disposed to
It is that 'of
conferring of 1
Gracioo God
us not lahoti7
sad contract t
firoW up beyon
owe its eiisten,
48.---(Cheers.)
their industry,
*sir unani mit)
ire to deal wi,
and regulate, h'
to destroy.—((
areltber alarms
twenty highly-
ciPled Catholic
not alarmed u
the lowest of tl
the Executive
(Cheers.) H'
btiag cot.trollr
tasks it our frie
t 0 dread—it is
4itn not mistake
4Yinptom not the
the disease is tit
%eked, and the
ea pored with it yi
'." it will soon he
%one, Session
foster beyond
411 trace the
anti the steps 01
ti, an Irish
"Mott when th
ittQudly held the
Potrer ; but wh
are they now, I
Ziaost active, the
confederation to
but the other 4.
literfered not i.
rights of their tl
settled themselv
"-What, Sir, i
d;cl not theirse
,c their arsesal
thought it possil
this was dr.
ward in the con
in its first trial,
Perin:tent to try
of the Prote‘a
`.41, estates, all]
With the dust,
holders to trim
."1 mighty en
4Y how far its
tholics themselv,
the power they
iharp.sighted
Sep with this I
degree its force,
Without concilia
meteor of time
"jtise.—(Cheer,
But, Sir, the I
ifiing, scarcely
114. House, if t
t4ticessions have
iteat body of tl
this, but ce
Well-regulate
dt s.s their 1
Principally coot'
"tending to th
tle3 follow the I
1°
his odes---ax
4214.1 classes of s,
tieal fanners
‘llLlizissa is poli
cebeersi)—N°
.(114'e state of th
It does not of i
oilfusion, but b
t 0 them that we
440, Session af
:1111 bear with
'l'll Sir, I shoe
Nations; and
1,14c,4* upon whi
i a this debat
)4., the questioi
Gentlema
`itholic Clergy,
t
Lrellizad :
t.7lsti.ses—(Che(
-"Y Protestant fe
:1,: (concurrent
}! octi expect
ic bfelehi
ine
re
i.l'ildinlprove the
L7tial to the mai
t-th time that w
:it'e their Willi!
"XI works.
barrier wh
ctestant and t
}.tgat extending
the other. I
n
°l;tervasions
pro;tha
see;
a t lisewere
ed Indulgenceaaennoo:m. imi
• soy such aml
speech whit
6Pa Hon. the
Bch I will
1;111111.ns and i
4tlain these wz
Y duty, us ai
'tare resided in
ZALled the to a
!le Wishes ar
~4
14j1ect—to sub'
eiculars in re
444• without bei
Zes'onal feelings
t:ohgerve upon
,kiber for 11
}match I find it
said, that th
Ith•
'en the cones
,Lthe Roman
e is
my c
1/47:
71: 'l‘
:4-Ytl ;lure
Mttl,tl tratl'vtP: veh::t°l°larniffilutooeiiflttnrPiroilni:tat
fat
as a mea,n.
t.
rtie-
at
grad
ere
'
but a perm
ql/4tke and error
ruth
to t'h such a ci
t, *horn it has
oacebeen so ear
Puraceit 1
e
1 :Nnev*raga. jive;
cpeo, leas
,?0:11,(1.1
1141 itlestion to
owe
(sk 'good God,
to 114411 h, and
the considero
Pr4i loPport
Ihti!4 of the R
%Professionl
izintti?ti at once
thtir:si irraa)
why t
ed the
feoni Y meal
that ir
ireiatv arliatn
Prot
sgtafrona ti
Was ot, 14' all
did
cured, if ht,