The Sun.
London, England, 1821-07-03 00:00:00

SLAVE TRADE.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished to ask one question of the
Noble Lord. When in that House it was urged upon the
Noble Lord that some effectual remonstrance ought to be made
to the 'Ministers of France, relative to the continuance of .the
African Slave Trade by certain of her subject.s; and to the de,
gree of countenance which such individuals received, from the
• want of some effective interposition on the part of the French
• Government, with a view to put an end to their practices ; the
Noble Lord intitnatNl that there was in the Legislative Body of
that Kiqgclom a disposition which was favourable to the con-
tinuance of this trade, and insinuated that it was upon this ac-
count that no more vigorous measures had been adopted by that
Government to repress the traffic notoriously carried on upon
certain parts of the coast of Africa under the French flag. It
now, however, appeared, that the Chamber of Deputies itself
had complained of the existence of this evil ; it seemed that a
complaint had been made there, and that it had been most
warmly praised upon the attention of the French Minister.
Now these two statements, that of the Noble Lord on a former
night, and this of the last week's French intelligence being com-
pletely opposite to each other, he (Sir J. Mackintosh) wished to
ask the. Noble Lord whether his information had proceeded
wool any written document ? and if it had, whether the
'Noble Lord would have any objection to have it laid before
Parliament ?

The Marluis of LONDONDERRY said, the source to
which the hon. and Learned Gentleman was alluding had
rather confirmed his (Lord Londonderry's) statement of a
former evening. It would appear, from what the French Mi-
nister of Marine stated, that there was this kind of feeling .in
the French Legislature. It had happened, in point of fact,
that very recently i'.iere had been discussions upon the subject
of the Slave Trade in both of the Chambers. That which had
taken place in the Chamber of Deputies might serve to show
the difficulties which ware likely to occur in any future consi-
deration of the same subject in that chamber. Unfortunately,
it was too true that there was at this moment a very strong colo-
nial spirit, both in the Chamber of Peers and the Chamber of
Deputies, which looked with very little favour at any great and '
benevolent law, like that—which abolished the traffic in slaves,
He (Lord Londonderry) had been very glad to find that the
Minister of Marine on this occasion spoke in an extremely pro-
per manner, both with respect to the principle upon which po-
licy and humanity demanded - such an abolition, and on the
obligation., of preserving.the public faith, pledged by so many
treaties, entire. With respect to laying the information before
the Hotise, oil which he (Lord' Londonderry) had felt war-
ranted to make the observation in question, he felt assured that
he had given very faithfully and undisguisedly the substance
of it to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; and not being pre-
pared tp state whether he should or shouli hot be inclined to
accede to a motion for the production of the original informa-
tion, he trusted that the Hon- and Learned .Gentleman would
be satisfied with this explanation of the matter.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH observed, that all the world
knew that the mode of publishing the discussions which took
Place in the Chambers of the. Parliament in France was such as
to render the published account of them a much more authentic
document than it wits elsewhere,.by reason of the different way
in which similar discussions were elsewhere allowed. to make
their appearance. He had alluded to that account, therefore,
in the present instance with some degree of confidence. The
Noble Marquis himself did not seem to cast the slightest im-
putation on either chamber of, a disposition to be unfriendly to
such a measure as that which he had been urged to recommend
to the French Minister. He merely said that he believed the
Minister was employed in preparing such a Bill as might.-ac-
complish the object of repressing .the abuse; but that it was
not yet quite prepared. He (Sir J. Mackintosh) did not wish
to press the matter on the House., but he conceived that such a
paper might have 'explained 'so extraordinary a contradiction
between the two statements.
The'Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the Minister
of Marine had hitherto not been able to obtain any more re-
dress than he himself bad been.

WESTMINSTER ABBEY.
Dr. PHILLIMORE wished .to state a few facts relative to
the Dean of Westminster (by whom, indeed, he- had been re-
quested to do so), in order to do away with a very erroneous
impression, which,,had been made upon the public Mind, with
respect to that reverend individual and the chapter', as to some
imputed neglect of. theirs in the care of Westminster-abbey.
The facts which hi was desired to state were four ; Lst, That
during the last 20 years a sum of 39,0001. had been expended
upeni,the repairs.of the Abbey-church : 2dly, That any profits
arising from the coronation wottld not be available to sitc4 put-

! poses, because the application of tlvAtt had always been, by
custom and usage, different : 3dly, That such profits, however,
much they had been exaggerated, would not amount to 3,09a1.
in the whole : and 4thly, That it was found very difficult to
prevent the mutilation of the tombs, and particularly so to pre-.
serve them clean, and-in order, amidst the smoke and dust of
London. The moment the arrangements for the ensuing corn=
nation should be removed, it was intended to bestow coosiderSa-
hle attention to these objects.
Sir CHARLES LONG thought it proper to explain, that
many years ago, he was on a Committee appointed to in-
quire into the state of Henry the Seventh's Chapel. That Com-
mittee having inspected a variety of documents, and believing
the Chapel to have been the ancient ! burial-place of the Kings
of England, considered that it ought to be repaired at the public
expense. As to the monuments in the other part of the Abbey
it had certainly been to him, and doubtless to others, matter of
extreme surprise and mortification to find them defaced and in-
jured as they. were. But when he had taken notice of this cirs
cumstance in the House, he meant to cast no reflection upon the
Dean and Chapter of Westminster. He had the honour of their
acquaintance, and, undoubtedly, men more truly respectable he
did not know. He was very glad that the public attention had
been called to this matter notwithstanding.
THE DUKE OF CLARENCE, IIER MAJESTY, AND
THE CORONATION.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY moved, that the Or-
der of the Day for, - reading the Duke of Clarence's Annuity
Bill a third time, be read.-
Mr. BERNAL warmly opposed' the grant of what were
called the Arrears, and declared, that there had not been a
single satisfactory reason alleged for their payment. Confident
as he was that the country looked at the subject in the same
point of view, he would move an Amendment to substitute
1821 for 1818, as the period at which the 'operation of the An-
nuity should commence. •
The SPEAKER observed, that the Bill must be read a third
time before the Amendment proposed by the Honourable Gen-
tleman could be received.'
• The Order of the Day was then read.• On the motion that
the Bill he read a third time,
Mr. CREEVEY rose, not to say any thing more respecting
his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence's character, or -de-
portment, but to call the attention of the House, and still more
Of the public, to the time at which the subject was brought be=
fore Parliament. When a motion for Repealing the Malt Tax
was carried in that House, the number of Members present be-
ing 274, the Noble Marquess declared, that the House was too
thin finally to determine on so important a subject ; he advised
Hon. Gentlemen not " to halloo before they were out of the
wood," and in the end, he actually did convert the majority of
78 for a Repeal of the Tax into a majority of fRI for its continu-
ance. 'When a question was carried vitally important and be-
neficial to the people, the Noble Marquess thought 274 Mem-
bers constituted too thin a House. Again, when the Honour-
able Member for Cumberland succeeded in inducing a House
of 254 Members to agree to a repeal of the Agricultural Horse
Tax, the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that it
was too small a House, and that he would try his hand again ;
a resolution, however, from which he had subsequently- been
diverted. A House of 274, or of 2-15 Members, was too small
to discuss 'a subject in which the interests of the people were at
stake; but when the proposition was for the benefit of the Crown,
or any of its MembeN, the Noble Marquess had no ob-
jection to a House anal as that which he (Mr. Creevey)
was then addressing—a House, the majority of which was com-
posed of placemen. If ever there was .an unanswerable
case in favour of any proposition, the present state of the
House furnished such a case in favour of the proposition of his
Honourable -friend the Member for Shrewsbury, to exclude
placemen and pensioners from seats-in Parliament. At the late
period- of the Session, placemen, always formidable, became still
more so. They were as numerous in the noose as ever, while
other Honourable Members, fatigued with the laborious duties
which they had so loog continued to perform, were gone out of
town. Then came the Noble Marquess and his Right Hon.
Colleagues, and availed themselves of so advantageous a posi-
tion of circumstances to get money froth the House for someone
branch of the RoYal Family. It was highly objectionable to
bring forward such a-proposition when it must be decided by
such a House as that which he (Mr. Creevey) was addressing;
and for that, among other reasons, he should certainly urge his
oppoSition to the Bill-to a division, in order that the public
might see who the Members were by whom their money was.
thus prodigally voted away..
Mr. BECHER declared, that since he had had the honour of a
scat in that House, he had never heard a proposition which ap-
peared to him to be so extraordinary, so unprincipled, and so
extravagant, as the proposition to pay what were called the Ar-
rears of the Duke of Clarence's Annuity. It teas a proposition
which, If carried, would give those who were always ready to
find fault with the constitution of that House, just ground for
censure, Surely thelioiNe of 'Commons were entitled to more
ceremonious treatment, than to have their Grant rejected at one
moment, and accepted at another, when the increased value of
the currency, or any other cause, might induce the change of
determination. It was hard that the Representatives of
,the
People were to be. bound by their first offer, but that the indivi-
dual- in whose favour that offer was made was not to be bound
by his refusal. To acquiescein'such a proposition, would be to
show that the House was really indifferent about the economy
of which so much had been said, and that they were not dis-
posed to put the distresses and reproaches of the people in com-
petition with the wants of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cla-
rence, and the wishes of, his Majesty's Ministers. If, three
years ago, when this Grant was refused, it had been 'de-
clared by any one,' that, at a subsequent time; Ministers would
propose not only to renew the Grant, but to pay the arrears of
the intervening_ period, he wquld have been called a vile calum-
niator. Any unjust imputation on their generosity the House
might answer by declaring that what they had offered three
years ago, they had Since spent ; fog every body knew- that the
13,0001. must be borrowed in order to be paid. Undoubtedly,
therefore, he should vote against the payment of any arrears;
but he confessed that the prospective grant of 8,0001. a year,
seemed to him to rest on different grounds. He was as ready
as any man to allow any Member of the Royal Family what-
ever was necessary for the niaintenance of his dignity, and of
the credit of the country. Ile had no objection therefore to the
grant of 6,0091. a year. • although when he recollected that the
Hon. Member for Aberdeen (with whom he concurred in think-
ing that the Royal Brothers ought to be placed on the same le_
vel), had shown that all that was necessary for that purpose was
an allowance of 3,5001. to the Duke of Clarence, he should vote,
unless the Hon. Member were proved to be erroneous in his
statement, even against the grant of 6,0001.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW regretted that the Hon. Gentleman.
who had just spoken, had not been in his place on Saturday
evening. He would then have heard an Hon. Gentleman, in
no way connected with Ministers (the Hon. Member for East
Looe) state circumstances which showed the true character of
the
,proceedings of his Royal Highness. The Hon. Meniher
E for ast Looc had stated, that his Royal Highness at the period
of the Original grain. felt that he could live abroad without it ;
but that -public and domestic circumstances, which it was un-
necessary to explain, had rendered it imperative on his Royal
Highness to return. In his (Mr. Serjeant Onslow's) opinion,
the payment of the arrears to his Royal highness was simply
in the nature of an outfit.

AIr.,BECIUR explained.
Mr. MONCK declared that he felt himself bound to oppose
the grant, declaring that after all that he had heard he was per..
suaded there.was nee case.made out for its justification. In the
present situation of the country the simple consideration for the
House was whether strict necessity or strict justice required
such an expenditure, -It was evident that the only way in which
his Majesty's ,Ministers could be rendered economical was by
lopping off" some of the taxes, and thereby depriving them: of
the means of being otherwise. •
.Lord A. HAMILTON intimated his intention of moving a
Resolution, that it might appear on the -Journals in the shape
of a Protest, against the impropriety, without an immediate
Message from the Crown, of voting..a Parliamentary grant like
the present on a Message sent three Parliaments ago, and under
another reign.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that his opinion on the ques-
tion.of the arrears to his Royal Highness was well known.
There was no evident distinction between that question and the
que4tion of the prospective grant of 6,0001. a year. In conse-
quence of what had passed on a recent occasion, when he was
not present, with respect to the approaching solemnity of the
Coronation, he felt it- right to state the reasons of the delay
which bad been iniptited to her Majesty, or to the Law Officers
of her Majesty, in asserting_ her Majesty's claim to be included
in' that ceremony. In the first place, thadelay in question had
by no means. been to the extent stated by the Noble Marquess.
He had been told that the Noble Marquess said there had been 1
two months delay.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY-About two months.
Mr. Buriucifeeee—Well, about two months. If it had
been a week more or less, he would not have quarrelled with
the Noble Marquess on.the subject ; . but there was a great dif-
ference between two months and one month. Ale would now
state precisely what had been the extent of the delay. It was
on the 21st. of May that the Noble Marquess delivered his opi-
nion in the House on the subject of the Coronation, which
subject had never before that period been mentioned. An
Honourable Friend of his had put a question to the Right
Ilonoura.hle the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the occasion
of a discussion respecting the Ordnance Estimates. To the part
of that question which respected the Coronation, the Right
Ifenourable Gentleman made no answer. The question did not
refer 'to- any claim on her Majesty's part to be crowned, but
merely to ascertain if provision had been made to enable her.
Majesty to attend on that occasion: His. Honourable Friend
laboured under a mistake if he supposed that any express per-
mission to attend WM necessary ; because, of course, her Ma-

jesty had the same right as that enjoyed by any of his Majesty's
subjects, to attend as a spectator of the ceremony. The question
however was taken up by the Noble Marquess as if it related to
a right claimed by her Majesty to be crowned herself; and the
Noble Marquess thereupon declared that it was clearly his
opinion that an Act of the Crown was requisite to enable
her Majesty to be so,crowned—for that although she was
Queei42Nsort, he wasselaarly of opinionethat both in usage and
'in law, it:Tested withesWKingtto decide. ',whether she should Lie
crowned or no/. •• The .Noble Marquess added, that he might as
well then say, that neither he nor his colleagues were prepared
to advise such an act of the Crown. - On this he (Mr.
Brougham) immediately protested against the Noble Marquess'sdoctrine, doctrine, and desired to be understood that he by no means ad-
mitted that her Majesty had no right to be crowned without such
an Act. This he had said lest his silence should be interpreted
into an assent to the Noble Marquess's proposition. That was
all that occurred on • the 21st of May. Was it a necessary con-
sequence, either that the solemnity of the Coronation should
take place, or that the Noble Marquess's opinion should be act-
ed upon, and her Majesty be excluded from a participation in
the ceremony ? It had been justly observed by his Hon. • and
Learned Friend on a recent occasion, that her Majesty's law
advisers were not. placed in the same situation with re-
ference to - her Majesty, as his Majesty's responsible advisers
were with reference to the King. It was not for them
to initiate any proceeding. They were to receive the orders
of her Majesty, and not to suggest any course of proceeding.
But even if it were otherwise, it . would have been their
duty to wait until the Coronation should be actually pro-
claimed. Nay more, it would have been their duty to act un-
der the recollection' that although a proclamation was issued
on the' th of May, 1820, declaring that the Coronation should
take place on the Ist of August,in that year; another proclama-
tion was issued in July, patting the Coronation off. Lt was• of
course natural that her Majesty and her Majesty's Law Officers
should wait until they saw a fresh proclamation, fixing the time
for the Coronation. That proclamation was dated on Saturday
the 9th of June. It did not appear in The Gazette until Tuesday
the 12th of June. Now, the memorial to the king in Council,
in which her Majesty claimed her right •to be crowned, was
prepared, and wen t oft from his (Mr. Biongham's) chambers on
the 23:1 of June, so that the delay which had taken place, and of
which the Noble Marquess had complained, was exactly eleven
days. When it was considered that in those eleven days it had
been necessary for him to go through- all the documents con-
nected with the subject, and to make up his mind as to the
advice which he should give her Maje Sty, under circumstances
of such extraordinary -importance, he certainly did not think
that any. great blame would be imputed to him for the delay.
He might also mention the accidental and unfortunate circum-
stance of the extreme indisposition of his Hon. and Learned
Friend, who about that period had been confined to his, bed for
upwards of a fortnight. Some impediment, too, bad arisen in
consequence of the holidays, which had occasioned the shutting
up of the British Museum, in which he had found it necessary
to search for some essential papers. He oughtto add, however,
that great courtesy had been shewn him by the persons in the
superintendence of that establishment, so as to enable.him to
visit it twice, notwithstanding its !being shut to the public.
At the same time, the cla sing of the Institution was certain-
ly an impediment to his inquiries, .as he felt the expediency
of not trespassing on the indulgence which he had experienc-
ed. Under all these circumstances, however, her Majesty's
-Memorial was delivered in on Monday the 25th of June.
Ile would altogether abstain at present from saying any thing
m
on the matter of that M e
orial, understanding that it was
under consideration, and feeling it impossible to anticipate such
an answer as should preclude him from being heard in a proper
quarter in support of her Majesty's claim. As to the argument
grounded on the near approach of the Coronation, they were
very much deceived who supposed that there was any want of
time in which to listen to .such an application. Between the
present period and the period fixed for the Coronation there was
an interval of seventeen days. There were instances in wTnich
the Proclamation for announcing a Coronation had been issued
only 16 days before the period at which that Coronation was ap-
pointed to take place. There had been instances of changes in
the arrangements for a Coronation, made in a subsequent Pro-
clamation, only nine days before the period at which the Coro- ,
nation was appointed to .take place. There had been instances
of such changes having been proclaimed only two days before
the period at which the Coronation was appointed to take place.
To talk, therefore, of time now pressing, or, of incoavemence
resulting from any imputed delay, was to talk with utter neglect
of all precedent and usage.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he should trespass
very shortly upon the time of the House; in answer-to the re-
marks of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, upon what he (the
slarquis of Londonderry) was supposed to have said on a
former evening. It was really never his intention, in what he did
Say; to go out of his way in order to throw any reflections upon
the professional conduct of the twa _Moil, and Learned Gen-
tlemen (Mr. -I.trongham and .111 r.
__Denniain) I,lca teasi merely-
contrasting the rapidity with which they expected an answer to
their memorial, and the slowness of their proceeding in the pre-
sentation of it. As to what had been now said by thejlion. and
Learned Gentleman who had just spoken, he seemed to have
been adverting to what had fallen from him (Lord London-
derry) on former occasions-, in regard to the right or otherwise
of her Majesty to be crowned. Now the Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen, both of them, would allow him to recall to their
recollections, that there was not one out of the many painful
debates which they had had, connected with similar subjects,
during the Session, in which he did not distinctly, so far as
his own impression enabled him to do so, contrast those
rights which the Queen was to be held as legally possessed of;
with those which the grace and favour of the crown might con.
fer upon her, and that among these latter he (Lord London-
derry) did enumerate .a participation in the Coronation. He
therefore could not but suppose. that the attention of the Hon.
and Learned .Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), and of his colleague,
had been called to this subject long ago • that it was not, in fact,
'on the 21st of May that the notion of fier Majesty's claim first
burst upon them, but long before that period. It was not on
the 21st May only that their attention could have been directed
to the subject, be-cause there was a regular application made by
the Queen to the first Minister of the country (Lord Liver-
pool) in the interval between, the 21st of May and the date
of their first Memorial, desiring to know in what formal way
she,- the Queen, was to attend at the Coronation.—(llear.)
The answer to that application distinctly was, that the
right of nominating those who were to attend at that ce-
remony was in the Crown; and that his Majesty was ad-
vised, that he could not allow her Majesty to be present.
That answer certainly led to a rejoinder from her. Majesty,
intimating that she would be present unless she were absolutely
prolOited.—( [lear.)—ln return to this a communication equally
respectful, but equally peremptory, was conveyed to her Ma-
jesty, stating that his Majesty's Ministers could not advise that
her Majesty should be received. Now in all this there was no
concealment surely, and on the part of her Majesty the commu-
nications were made, he believed, in her own hand-writing. As
to the other occasion of the 21st of May, on which he (Lord L.)
had adverted to this subject in the House, the Hon. and Learn-
ed Gent. (Mr. Brougham) did not then lay down any contrary
law or doctrine upon the question. Without attempting to
im-
pute to either of the Hon. and Learned -Gents. any want of zeal
for the interest of their royal client, which zeal they had already
so well and honourably proved that they possessed, he (Lord
Londonderry) must say, he thought it a little hard that -such
taunts and remarks should have been made in that
House against his Majesty's Government; and those too upon
a day (Saturday) when it might just have happened that no
Minister had been there to reply to them. It was, to be sure,
a little strannoethat Non.. and Learned Gentlemen should be
so astonished that a memorial, presented only on the. 25th,
should not be answered by the 30th of. June. It did seem, he
said, whale too much, that his Majesty's Ministers should be
reproved and taunted, as if there had been, on their part, a
denial "of justice. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
Denman) would permit him to observe, that his tone was so
significant and so criminatory the other night, that he'(Lord
Londonderry) was hardly prepared to reply to it, except that he,
too, could state a few dates. The Hon. and Learned Gentles
man on the second bench would allow him also to say, that he
must have very imperfectly looked at his documents. .It was
proper for the house to know that it was not till that morning
that the first regular and formal memorial was presented to his
Majestyin Council. The fact was, that three memorials had been
presented ; one dated the 21st of June, another dated the 25th of
luxe, and a third on the Ist of July. The memorialof the,2lst of
June was addressed by her Majesty to the King as her Sovereign;
that of the 25th, which was presented by Lord HOod, was pray.
ing to be heard by Counsel, but was not addressed to his Ma.
jesty in Council. Now, according to the forms of office, her
Majesty could not be heard by that sort of application. On the
Ist of-July' the lion. and Learned Gentleman finding that he
had not made his applications as they ought to have been made,
forwarded another memorial dated on that day, praying that
her Majesty might be heard by Counsel before the King in
• Council. Even this was not very formal; but in that essential
particular it was correct. The moment that the Secretary of
State received the first Memorial, a communication was
had with the Lord Chancellor, and the matter was imme-
'diately referred to the law officers of the Crown. Now cer-
tainly it would have shown a very great want of respect for'that
memorial, if his Majesty's Ministers had advised the King to
reply to the application made by her Majesty, without having a
renewed reference made to the crown lawyers. If satch reference
was made to those law officers on the 27th, and was not answer-
ed on the 110th, the house would hardly think that there had
been, on the part of Ministers, any undue delay ; especially
when, upon' the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's own showing.'
itoccupied the whole interval between the Pth and the 21st of
June before he'put in his first memorial. The first and second
memorials that were presented. on the Queen's behalf, were
equally informal, if her Majesty was to be heard by her lenal

1

advisers. But an answer was returned to them to the efts t
that his Majesty was advised by his law servants teat •
her Majesty had no right to appear at the Coronation.
Then came the third and last Memorial, which was the
-first one that was formal. That had been submitted to his
Majesty during the day.—(Hear, hear !)—lt was now hiv. l' (Lord Londonderry' ,1 duty to say, that his Majesty was ask vised, that to grant the prayer of such-applica%was *et to bes
,considered as a matte? of right; hill that it --chn. my ..,s.rent.• '
ed as-a matter of grace and favok lis Majesty had, how-
ever,
decided that her Majesty should be ward by her Counsel
upon the subject.—(Hear, hear !)—As to any doubts which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had chosen to notice as furnish-
ing additional reasons for the delay on his part, the House must . e
''...3 ' h'e.
be well aware that the intention of completing the whole sere,
mony of the Coronation immediately had been matter of pub-
lic
Mr. DENMAN said, if there had been any thing violent or ,Sll
warm in his manner on a former occasion he was sorry for it ;
-;'
he had not intended to cast any imputation
.on'any person,but he did feel, and atilt he retained the-impression, that her Majesty
had a right to complain, that when she had applied on Monday
respecting her claim, and there was reason to think that the opi-
nion -1
of the Council was already made up, they had not let her
-,i'.'.-
know that opinion on Saturday. -He could not think that they
1., •
i
',would hare been at all justified in putting forward any claim ,:• on the part of her Majesty until they were certain that the ce- Iremony would take place. They could not know from the :, h 1 preparations, as those had been entered upon before, and the ' ceremony had been' delayed ; nor could he alloW that her .
Majesty had any right to take notice of what fell from the :1 Noble Lord in Parliament. He was aware that an application
had been made by her Majesty to Lord Liverpool, but at that
dine he and his Learned Friend were out of town on their cir- I
cuits ; and undoubtedly her Majesty never could think of ad-
vancing a legal claim to the King in Council without taking S
advice. With respect to the observation of the Noble Lord, '
that he had only complained of the-delay on their part, in de- ' •
fence of others, be (Mr. Denman) did not know how that could
- apply ; because if they had already determined on excluding her
Majesty, certainly it must be on an opinion already made up,
and that might have been communicated at once. He had no i
'apology to-offer unless for expressing himself-with any warmth t•
of manner. He still thought her Majesty had a right to com. •
plain; ' With respect to her Majesty's Memorial claming to be .•; crowned, no no man could doubt that it was intende' to be ad-
dressed
to the King in Council, and it was the duty of those
who had any doubt on the subject of the claim, to have put the
argument in train for being heard.
Mr. BROUGHAM, in explauation;confirmed the statement of his lion. and Learned Friend, that hex Majesty's first appli-
cation was originally unknown to them.
The question was then put that the Bill be read a third time.
Mr. BERNAL moved an amendment for excluifing the ar-
rears.- In form, it was for altering the effect of the Bill from
1818 to 1821.
di-
vided
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw ; and the. House upon Mr. BERNAL'S amendment, when there appeared--
- For the Amendment , ' - - - 33
Against it. - _ - - - 94
Majority _ _ - - "-s-61
On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found Lord A. lIA-
'MILTON on his legs, contending that the Mode in which this
grant had been introduced was irregular. To prevent it from
being drawn into a precedent, he should move a Resolution to
that effect to be inserted on the Joarnals 'of the House. The
Noble Lord concluded by moving the Resolution.
After a few words from the Marquess of LONDONDERRY.,
the Resolution was put, and negatived without a division.—Tbe
Bill was then passed.
PREVENTIVE SERVICE.
1 Sir IV. DE CRESPIGNY rose to bring forward his motion,
for a Copy.of the Warrant issued in aid of the Preventive Ser.-
vice, on the Weymouth and the Isle of Portland Station, bf
which a woman named Gibbs was most indecently and impr°S
perly searched,• and under which a clergyman was disturbio.
and injured while addressing. his congregation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EX-CHEQUER, after a few
words, which were totally inaudible in the Gallery, moved die
previous question.
After a few words from Mr. BENNET,
-The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if
the, Honourable Member would make application to the 'Per
sury, he would take care to afford hiM every information on nie
subject.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT thouht it would be more advisable for
emhi
Mbers to make private inquiry before they brought - so'ta
subjects before the House. He himself had frequently r ,
grievances laid before him, but upon applying to the nr,°,l:: I
offices, he had generally received the most satisfactory ons :c
_wear, hear !)—He must say, that statements of this nature
~..
did serious injury to the country, lint more particularly t the
militaryndepartment
Sir W. DE CREST)" GNY-then withdrew his Motion.
'NAVY HA ler-PA IP.
Mr. F. BUXTON presented a -Petition from two Ladiels
named Mrs. Bevan and Mrs. Harrison, stating that ti:ey vserc
the wives of officers who had served for a great length of tilue,.
(One of them 40 years) in the Navy ; that their' husbands ha__
ing-been. at different periods seised with insanity (one, of 'th.ese
Pr
At Walcheren in 1809), they (the Ladies) continued to retch`
the full half pay (their hu.sbands being provided for by Govern-
ment) until 1818, when they received notice that they werFaif
, receive in future only half the usual half pay, the other 1.1 _
going to the support of their husbands. The Hon. Membeeee'
proceeded to state the oreat distress to which these Ladies were
reduced, reduced, and observed", that when they complained, they S,!'_!,
told that they might receive the full half 'pay, on the conditis
of their undertaking to support their husbands. ' ' •
The SPEAKER made - some remarks upon the irregdriil
' sa
of the petition, it being a claim for pecuniary, relief.
I sra
- After a few words from Mr. Banked, Sir 3. Yorke, ,,„
. Milton, Mr. W. Wynn, Sir G. Cockburne, Lord A. lineal
the Marquis of Londonderry, Mr. Buxton, Mr. Brogdeth an
the '
the Speaker,
Mr. CALCRAFT recommended the Honourable )/ember
~,ns,
to withdraw the petition for the present, and bring it fbr.6*.ion
the next day in another shape.—The petition was then.
drawn.
~wson
Mr. G. BENNET presented a petition from Jane sesmae,
Doubleday, of Nottingham, against delays in the Court or 1-'
I eery.—Ordered to licnon the table.
L •• - • LOTTER Y BILL.
, Ordered to be read a third time this day.
1 The Report on the Lottery Bill was brought up, and the 134`11
EXTRA POST BILL. i
The Report on this Bill being brought up,
inu3cilri.iiCie‘oliiiivCenilieAniCeTtooblecr
of the
Mr. N. CALVERT said, that as the expence and loss
experiment would necessarily fall on the individuals who Pro-
posed to make it, he thought that the trial mihtbe made- .e, •
Mr. NIABERLEY 'defended the conduct of the CommT te
The Committee were
be tried, in the hope of a better one being in time adopted
eess
objected to
men.
Mr. as likely to prodoce
Mr. P. MOORE said he would oppose the further Profs'
of the Bill.
of
beiAnlgr.mFa. diej,Ei tWO.jugShstait(ol,
i
no reason for creating a new establishment, or embarkital.h.e.
n e
new advetwure, but above all, of creating a new rate. of p tab.
The House then divided on the Bill.
.tbbeatnilfdehebexphearipmaesntlawffi-ecree.wor
, For the Bill 31—Againstit 39—Majority against the Bill t/'
' THE APPROPRIATION BlLLsioscl
The Report on this Bill was hrsinglit up, and. the Bill °
to be read a third time this day.
POOR RELIEF BILL. e re'
Mr. SCARLETT • moved the Order of the Day for' ti:,
zens
turning the adjourned d: bate on this Bill, t'or the purpose °f diii
moving that it be withdrawn. The lion. Member said. l''.bot
not wish to provoke Or revive any disCiission on this measur_eog
merely to make a few remarks as to his• motives for withan:4ll,
it. On 'some future occasion he intended going at ;Lioilli
into the question. His Gallant Friend (Sir Ildbert 0,, Jill!,
had, lie knew, a great store of learning prepared ae;aisi-1,',-,o.i'h
on this subject ; but he had only to rub up Ins own Iregelontio,
ledge, and he hoped to be able to meet trim. In the cetial't
Session he meant to bring-forward the measure,. substa'h the
as he introduced it during the present Session.
.It- he fc° dove'
House as tii,poshl then to support him as lie had hitherWcdpr
he should also introduce a Bill for the better regulation_ olds
rish relief. As the law LOW existed, no man echo had tncsh, lent
dren could be taken as a soldier ; but.that man whsil Pweici,
two children, called on the parish for their sup.port, n. _
was also belied to provide a substitute to serve in his Tea by OS
Sir R. WILSON said; he hoped he would be prepsresaros.
next Session to become-a qualified adversary to his ground;
Friend, as he intended disputing with him even), inch 9101 ive.',
Dr. LUSHINGTON said, that if he thought the net sly'
to interfere with the real comforts of the poor, he.wool"re asell -
it his support, but he looked upon the Bill as a Inisrasatuote their
to remove the causes of their degradation, and to Ph°as the Bill
real independence. The Hon. Member had saiiis,',,i, thing, it
_
n.°to
au;aass
aa
Bmiellastuaretatokepras:aeyntanindaareriateasLaitgwemasen. noprovidens
marriages.—Mr. F. PALMER rose, when
Mr. SCARLETT said, that he had av had waived his
the measure, and he thought it unfair, after°
and to mitre re'
light, for Hon. Gentlemen to open a-
,demb'it He might be assi-
sent the principles and objects of the 13--
d n himself was an .
milated to a madman, but the Hon. Gentleman
abhorrer, and an abhorrer could not reason.
Gentleman
Mr. URNEY assured the Hon. and dreamed a want of
that he did not mean to betray even in appearance
cour*..sy to him.
' aelf to support the
Mr. T. COURTE NA Y p,leslged i'mms,,,ssi„.
principle of the Poor Laws ia.t.ie ensure g
th the Honourable and
Mr. lIARBORD differed entirely w oideidieall argument 0?

butLearnt heed Member (Mr. Scarlett) alto the principle of hill,
t would reserve till the next Session the statement of his
reasons for doing so.
Mr. P. PALMER hoped that a complete investigation of
the labouring classes would take place before any alteration
whatever was made in the Poor 'Laws. He contended that the
''ages of the labouring classes, at this time, were not sufficient
for their support. g
Mr. COOPER declared his opposition to the principle of
the Bill
1„, (2s°_l.Tlelo DAVIES, though instructed to oppose the Bill,
sarvrtu f opinion that some alteration was essentially neees-
Mr oNrori
any alt-Lek---- Made some observations to show that before
remoiied. took'lace, certain severe grievances ought to be
on the he principal grievances which pressed heavily
S
r, were excessive taxation and the Corn Laws.
i• Franklinsita.EtinTgT' explained, and quoted an opinion of
they
more that was done to help the
Mre; t.ll less were they inclined to help tlfemselves. He
larßed it as a fact, that a diminution of wages- was the neces-
nnsequence of an increase of the poor rates. -
he motion was then agreed to, and the order discharged.
The Assesse MISCELLANEOUS.
d Taxes Regulation Bill was read a third time,
rd passed, after some remarks arks from Mr. BERNAL and Mr.
IrsurNGTON.
, The Tobacco Duties' Bill was ordered to be read a third
tone to-morrow.
The Muse. resolved itself into a Committee on the Custom-
house Officers' Relief Bill.
The House having resumed, Mi. BROGDEN brought up the-
Report, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-
morrow.
The
-Metropolis Police Bill was read a third time.
Mr. MAR riN proposed a clause, by which all persons as-
listing at bull or bear-beatings, dog or monkey-fights, &c. in the
neighbourhoodof the House, might be liable to punishment.
On the suggestion of Mr. CravE, who said that he did not
tee in what part of the Bill the clause could be introduced, :.1 r.
MAItTn'T consented to withdraw it.—The Bill was then pawd.
The Audit Account Bill was read a third time and passed.
The usual Sessional Addresses were agreed to in a Committee
of the
Whole House, and the Report,ordered to be received to-
morrow.
•
manr
.ITBREAD presented a_petition from Mr. Bridg-
rropnetor of the patent iron coffins.
HOLISe adjourned at HALF-PAST .EIGHT &Clock.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.