The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-02 00:00:00

30,19i1,000

UNFUNDED DEBT.
1020. _

20,031,569

_
Exchequer Bills, l' Geo. IV. - - - - 29,000,009
Irish Treasury Bills, 1 Geo. IV. - - - 1,500,000
Exchequer Bills,-for Public Works, &c: . 206400
-.. .

1821

30,706,400

EN-chequer Bills - - - - 29,000,000
Irish Treasury Bills , - - - 1,000,000

• . 30,000,000
By reduction of Unfunded Debt -. X 30,705,400
He had stated that a large diminution had been
made in the public expenditure for the present'
year. Ile did not know that he had a riiht to
hold, out the expectation that any farther mate-
rial reductions would be made. But he could,
state that the Government had most anxiously
fumed their. attention. to this subject, and every
saving that could possibly be -made, consistent
with the. honour, and security of the country,
would be brought under the consideration of
Parliament in the ensuing Session. But while he
stated it to be the object of Ministers to make
every possible, reduction in the public 'expen-
diture, it was proper that he should mention that
there were one or two circumstances which
seemed likely to cause an increase, if not in the
present year, yet probably within a short period.
The first of these was the charge, of the Out-
pensioners of Greenwich Hospital. This had
-hitherto been met by a fund, to which Officers
contributed from their Prize-money, and which
continuing to accumulate in war had hitherto
been sufficient to meet the expence thus thrown
on it.' But the interest of the fund so established
was no .longer equal to the burthen, and it was.
therefore probable that the charge must fall upon
the public. It was however expected, that in
the -course
.of five or six—years, from the di-
minished expence which might be calculated
upon, and from other circumstances, that the
fund would again be sufficient, and the pub-
lic be relieved from tke burthen. tat present;

it could riot be so applied, a legal doubt hav-
ing - arisen, as to the right of the Director.;
to touch the capital of the fund, and the inte-
rest being, as he had already stated, no longer
adequate to the demands made on the fund.
The out-pensioners would therefore become
chargeable upon the 'public for 300;00 01. per
annum until the fund had recovcked,, or the leg 4
doubts were cleared up. He was not sure that
he might not have to, cat upon •Parliament for
some provision the p.resent year ; and if, it
was found indispensably necessary, he had-no
irohbrintiThe- should find the House-ready-4o_
grant the support which must be supplied from
some' source' or other. , The other object which
might occasion an increase of expence was the.
claims of the East. India Company. They had'
made application for the payment of certain suviu
which they considered to be due to them. On.
the ..part • c,f. -Government there had never been
any . indisposition to settle the" accounts between
them and time Company, but he now felt it more
than ever.necessary to
•endeavour to bring their"
to an early adjudication:- He could not sap
what it might become his duty to ask from Par.
liament to meet these claims. He, however;
considered, that it would not be necessary to re-
quire any farther addition to be made to the
Ways and Means in the course of the present
Session. Those already provided would •suffire•-,
and at all events a very small issue of Exchequer.
Bills would enable them to satisfy the demands
of the. COmpany.. ,

Mr. llumE desired to know the amount of the

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. replied,
that their nominal amount was 2,00Q,0001. The,
general account, however, was of a doubtful na-
ture, and some of the claims were not admitted.
On this subject the Government only required a
fair investigation, and, it was in contemplation,
as soon as possible, to bring the' claims of the
Company into the course of being annually
iiritti-
dated and regularly brought to account. Hither.,
to, such had not been the practice. • The ac-
counts on both sides had been allowed to got.o
great lengths, and to embrace a•great variety of
topics. In future they would be simplified, and
brought forward with less delay. lie had shown
that the Supply for
.the present year, includin;
500,0001. for Irish Treasury: Bills, and 1,000,0001.,
for the interest of Exchequer Bills, with a Sink-
ing Fund on them of 200,0001., amounted to
20,018,2001., exclusive of the supplies neces-
sary to meet the existing debt, amounting to
30,706,4001. He wished noir to show how the
Irish Sinking Fund Loan would operate, upon
the purchase of Stock. It would be undoubtedly
satisfactory to persons connected with the Funds
to know, that although a loan of 12,500,0091.
was to be taken from the Sitiking Fund in the
present year, and though- but 12,000,0001: had
been taken in the last, the . sum for this .year's.
purchase of Stock was 60,0001. larger than- the
sum appropriated to a like purpose in the year
1820. lie then entered into a more detailed
comparison of the sums received by' the Corunds-
Sioners for the Reduction of the National Debt.
in Great Britain and, Ireland, in the year ending -
.sth January, 1821 ; and an estimate of the sums
which will be received by them in the year
ending sth January, 1822, exchisive of thr!
sums set apart to pay life annuities, which was
as follows

ISums applicable to they
'Tatal Sums
received.
Leans.

Purchase
of Stock.

Great Britain.
176 u ending .sth Jan. 182 l 4,101,024
. 182 4,160,202
Ireland (B. C.)
Jan.l ear ending ath _
18221821 4
64:82856,4

12,400,090' 16r,501.,021
12,000,000 16,160,201
•
645,865'
174,462 665,70
United Kingdom, 1
Year ending sth Jan. 18211' 4,7411,889 12,400,000:, 17,14,909
. . 18221 4,651,496 12,174,4621 16,825,958'
In another year he hoped there would be no occasion to take a
loan from tbe Sinking Fund of Ireland, but that its full amount,
would be left to operate upon the public debt: There was ino-.
ther important view to be taken of this-subject. The Finance
CoMmittee of -1817 and 1818, besides unravelling many other.
intricate accounts, called for statements of the cash payments
made in each year by the Commissioners for the reduon of
the national debt, in order to shew how much the debt was di-
minished, and how much of the sum taken to liquidate it was.
made good by borrowing. This view of the subiect he had
called upon the House to take in the last as he did in the pre-
sent year, and to compare the actual income and exp mditure-
of the years 1820 and 1821. In the year ending January the
25th, 1821, the revenue actually received in the United Kit,3'_
dom, amounted to - - - - - £54,022,i14
To this was to- be added, for the Lottery 156,1Z4
For. Old Stores - - - 263,8E0
Repayment of EXchequer Bills - - 'mp.

Amounting together to the. Sum of X 5040,603
And now he came to the Expenditure Of the same Year •
The actual charge on the Consolidated Fund was 1:48,597,17'
Interest upon the Irish Sinldng Fund and tin-
funded Debt

22300,219
550,897,376

Making a Total of

This was the amount of the charges borne by the public,
ex-
elusive of the supplies for the service of the year, which he had'
before enumerated. -The- actual expenditure for• the Army,
Navy, and other services ;*which he did not think it neces-,'
sary to recapitulate, made the total charge amount- to
£71,199,864.—Then • if the actual income were deducted froto
the above amount of public expenditure, the- latter would be
found to exceed -the 'revenue. by -J.:16,569,176.
Sinking Fund were applied to this, amounting to X 17,60,773,
in point of fact it would appear that there was a surplus of
Come o'er the expenditure, amounting to 1:950,597:—8ut tbl3
was nor a fair way of viewing the subject, because. the interest
of the unfunded debt was charged. Z 2,300,000. Now the ac-
tual amomit of the interest of the'unfunded debt 01-it-sta7.:l,ing,
did not exceed £1,000,000, and the amount of the Sinkiog
Fund £400,000. But then there had been a large arrear Of_gx-
chequer Bills unsatisfied, to the amount of -£990,00 whit;l2
had been met, and this was to be added to the debt lie idao
the last year, making a total of from -£1,700,000 to 1,1-,U00,000.,
i H
In the course of the year 1920, the situation of the country hamproved to that amount clpar of every thing. e would
3'"
proceed to state what he thought was probable would
the amount of the revenue of the present year: In the,. fit;
instance, he would assume the general Revenue to, e 91
same as the last, and he would presently state the grailal
upon which he made this calculation. He would take
then • at
The Lottery at : :
Old Stares - -
French Indemnity - - -
0'
m Repayent of Exchequer Bills for Public Works 10,
1 I ,114
•
The amount charged to the Consolidated Fund would be a
-short of what it was last year ; it-would be less by about 100,
He would take it in round numbers at - ~ •
The Interest in the Unfunded Debt,' including Ex-
chequer Billsand some Arrears due to the Bank
of England - ,700,fV.°
~Ito

Total

Total

if

----- • -
Without going through the 'particulars of the Supplies he Ijia,l
before enumerated, it would be sufficient 'to state, .that t e,%g
added to the sum he had just named,- mude Cue. tcral
,Ct'd
;•:x?
being £3,000,000 all.but 0:`,000 less than the exP
of the present year - - -
end 3 cry of

. • . • . •
lattyesr.'• Deducti.4g the amount of the revenue from this; there
woul4 xomain a sum of X.13,2b%i.,848 ofexpenditUre beyond the
reiTnue. But as the Sinliing Fand-.amounted to .X16,13,)0,01.10,
there would- be an actual. reduc.tiob of debt to the amount of
3,590,0001. As he' befbre r,-anarkea, there was 400,8001. for the
interest. of Eit-ivpier Bills in arrear. This suit was •to be
• added to the•excess of income in the present year, which would
thus be. made to arnciunt to about .;
It would be rccollected that it was the object of the House to
obtain a clear Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001. 'lt. waii not likely.
that a Sinking Fund to that amount would be obtained in the
coin?. of the present, year, unless the revenue experienceda very
22ierable increase.„ . But there Was every reason to hope that
Y•s3111,1so nearly approach the accomplishment of the ob-
eseject the. -AliGus,. hair in view, as in• the proportion of four to five.
ati„lls-a7.-ea eNplain the reasons ,that• he. had calcu-
al' the revenue of the present" year would not fall
he of the revenue 'of the lest. The ground upon which
Pa entertained this expectation was the amount of the actual
ents in
.the first five months in the year. Sa far'as it was
Possible to make up the account (the Irish accounts rev being left
° fortnight in arrear), it appeared- that the progressof the
/evenue fully
_justified the hope he had expressed.. The actual
PaMents made in Great Britain, between the sth of January
the Ist of June, 1820, amounted to_ . 1:15,55ii,184
-out that sum included payments for the stock of
malt in hand, which tornied no part of the re- ,
rlar income of the year. The sum received
,„r the stock in hand amourlted to _
.1.113 deducted from the actual payments into the
txchequer for the first five months of the year, •
reduced the sum he had mentioned to - . - 15,213,83
The actual payments in Irelano. up to the 20th of
May, amounted to • - - - •
The Payments for, Great Britain

312,353

£1,339,480
15,243,831

•
F?'he tctal amount,for the TTnited- Kingdom being X 16,1563,311.
cis was the amount of the Revenue up to the period which he
riientioned in 1820. In the present year the actual pay-
,4lenta made in Great Britain from the sth of January to the
tat of Jude, amounted to - - X 15,383,322
Thepayrnertts for Ireland - - - 1,435,312

• .Total - - X. 16,823,634
---It therefore appeared that. in the_ first five
r"ilthii of the present year there was an excess
over the same period in the last of 24.0,0001. If
they
-deducted from the last year's receipts the
31)000/. for the stock .of Malt on hand, .the
Revenue had thus cleared in five -nioaths 240,006/.
°F the extra Rim raised last year upon that ac,
c.,"at_.; and they had only to snake_good,To,oool.
in seven .months, to plate the'llevenue of this
Year upon.an .equal footing with the last, even
with that adventitious. increase of its amount. He
thought then that unless Some unexpected mis-
fortune occurred, it must be .clear that Ministers
eil,-tiotaverstate the argument in their own fa-
!oar, in making that calculation which he had
33st 'submitted teethe Committee. In 1819, Par-.
lis• •
tnent had determined on doing that which cer-
,tl4lly threw a great burden on the country, by
i•
Posing new taxes, calculated to produce
6'47900,000/.. for The . purpose-of obtaining a clear.
I.lll(ing.Fond*to the amountof 5,000,000/. That
bad nOt yet 'been .attained, but lie .had
the ,Committee that they already. ap-
Proached a:: Sinking Fund of 4,000,0001.
would. be well that they should remember what
..the circumstances under which this effort
'as made. The. situation of the country had
been -extraordinary in every point of, view. It
"iii to be borne in mind that large reductions had
been„ciNde WTthin the period he had alluded to,
"` cettain liranches. of. the National Debt. In
?-•
14trit•1818,-the Bank had held Government
Zicurities to no leSs an amount than 28,000,000/.
'Lci'at sum had been _reduced under the sanction
°,ll- Parliament, till the Securities held. by the
'14,, 'ark in • ExChequer •Bills were little more than
,viu:(300,0001. beyond the usual current account.
4hos the linfunded Debt had not only been
e!1,111---ceduced but 19,000,0001. of the sum
t)
t PiOirrlated. to that purpose had been paid
11:.,.;i1e Bank... In every other case, money
etiby the Government on one side and receiv.e
tilt 45' some party on the other, was immediately
v0,"4 into all the various channels of circula-
ft was not so with respect to payments
ce,'-'e to the.. Bank. Whatever sums they had re-1
ah-ed. were taken from the general circulation,
.tC" this circumstance necessarily tended to cramp
resoUrces of the country. Had not this mo-
p been in some degree thrown again into circu-
-1144°41 lie hardly knew ['Ow the country could
been- sustained such an effort. But bow had it
e"- Put into circulation ? The Bank had ern-
t-4Yd it purchasing bullion. This was cer-
-401417 for a.most important ohject--4he resump-
Pt" Cash Payments. But the money was ex
ailed
nt for that which was useless when it came
e°,tile country, which was laid up unprofitably,
alle coffers of the Blink, and could not be made
coallable fora considerable time. These' things
sidered, li eesne doubted whether any country had
tt,dr 'made so severe an effort—had ever submit-
-4a to so great a sacrifice to sustain its credit,
11'4t° keep good faith in all its engagements.—
e qfort had been made, and the country had
and Phed over-the ditliculties.connected with it,
refuted the'aspersions which had been thrown
• ti; on its integrity. . Ile congratulated the Housea:lt it had been made, and that they now saw
Bank 'paying in cash. There was no longer
htit dread of- further restrictions being imposed,
Ow 48 r t 1 PRPTIeIitS in fUture would be left to take
,course, and stimulate all the diver-
se:4d. Powers of re-production: This was already
trutti',, and they beheld a degree of life and mil.,
whicii4.,throvvn-iitto the industry of the country
ago. .•,,",a.ct been little calculated upon a few months
the .0 ne great increase which had taken place in
v‘ah.;e-alue_.of fUnded property, must increase the
e 01.., of all other deScriptions of property in the
in t"h`rY• This must be felt in the mortgage or
tha_ e sale of lands, as many, reluctant tnpur-
toraNie, stock at its present high price, were na-
rect!'Y led to employ their capital .in that. di-
". In 1816 and 1817, much distress was
hee• Perienceo .similar to that which had recently
ria.t.4 the subject of complaint. A general stag-
of trade was alleged to exist, and entire.
21".!lernand for different commodities, and
the of the circulating medium. What was
1.17 effect of the rise in the funds which followed
%„ 'he years 1817 and 1818 ? That rise was not
Permanent in its nature, as, he trusted, the
eat would_ be found to prove. We had then
Ivll2.ndergo that great change in our currency
"'gal was now • in progress, and to the conse-
i7oces of which every one was then looking
kith• alarm. They might now hope, from the
474313reS 'which had been adopted, that • if the
`l_l'nce of the country was more tardy than
kinsd be wished, that there was all the less
t."ll.ger
•mu. going back to that state of dis.:
atr!ss from which we were recovering. If we
tiq_ONl.d.liaZe-..b.b:new enemy to encounter, fliictua
~°loes might expected, occasional misfor.:
"A 3 would be experienced, and partial Chancres'

would take place in the value of preperty ; but
therewereno grounds for -atiticipatipg a recur-
rence of calamity on . a scale so general as
that which seemed to ihreaten the nation be-
fore the great' measure to which he had alluded
had been adopted by the wisdom of Parliament.
But reverting- to the effect produced by the rapid
rise of the Funds-in 1817, he could not but re-
merriber that onan occasion similar to the present,
he had congratulated the House on the Three
per 6.Mts: having risen to Seventy.four. The
price- had now for some days been above Seventy.:
four. Shortly after the period to which he had•
referred, they rose to above Eighty, awl the con-
sequence was,.the most sudden revival of the in-
dustny of" the country that had ever .been wit-
nessed. So that of late-they had been accus-
tomed to look back to the year 1818 as to -a year
of comparative prosperity. It was with pleasure
that he directed the attention the House to the
change whichshad lately taken place, as nothing-
could more distinctly indicate the immense in-
herent resources, and the solid means which the
country possessed. We have got over the diffi-
culty arising from the state of our currency, cer-
tainly not without great inconvenience and suf-
fering, but there Were grounds for believing that
much of that suffering proceeded. from , other
causes. For it was remarkable that similar dis-
tress bad been experienced in most of the coun-
tries of Europe, and in a more extraerdinary.;le-
gree. in the United States of America, where no
such system as ours had been in operation to any
considerable extent. It was therefore clear that
some great and more general cause produced
that wide-spreading distress that had been experi-
enCed..- The attention of the House would soon be
more particularly called to this subject, and he was
therefore unwilling to detain them upon it now.
He would only say that a more striking illustra-
tion of the great. internal resources of this.contry
could hardly he afforded, than was supplied. by
that change to which he had called their atten-
tioi.. He -Could not but notice with satisfaction

aCcumulatlon of capital which might. be re-

marked among .the• lower classes. The wise
measure adopted by Parliament for establishing
depositories for small savings had been attended
witlcThe most gratifying results, and furnished a
curious- barometer of the -internal state of the
country. Accounts which had been presented to
Parliament, and to which he wished to call' the at-
tention of the House, proved that these savings had

progressively increased in every month op,to the
sthsgf April. The increase had in alMost every
instance-been gradual and' progressiVe. !end at
the latest period, a greater progressive iicrease
appeared to have taken place than had been pre-
.viously. known.. Since the period he had !lamed,
since the sth April, from 19,0004 to 20,0001. per
week had-regularly been paid into the Bank of
England upon account of Saving
.13anks..-.When
this %vas considered, from. the view which it gave
of the condition of the middling and of the lower
classes—from the indications whickit presented
of the industry and wealth of the counfryiit
might safely be assumed that there never waS:a
period Which furnished a more gratifyilirdis-
play of the-safety of the country, and the stability
of its resources. lie felt the more satisfaction
in pointing out these things to the consider-
ation of the House, as indivicluals-Ailid'Vf'ere
only in the habit of viewing public affairs through
the medium of particular iii.ejUdkes,.Were accuS-,

tomed to describe the country as exhausted,
enervated, crippled in its resources, and unable
to make those exertions which particular circum-
stances- might call `for. ,Such ideas were erro.
Rebus: It was not true that other nations had
gained advantages-over us. lie believed that
England, compared with the other nations of
Europe, would. be found to have its full share of
.those blessings which peace might be expected
to bring. This country had undoubtedly sub-
mitted to a greater effort of finance than had
been made in any other. But this was the only
country that had lessened its debt since the ter"-
mination of the war, and in which taxes to the
amount of many millions had been repealed.
These circumstances were most gratifying sub-
jects for -reflection. Difficulties were still to be
encountered, but greater difficulties had been
triumphantly surmounted than any of those
with which we had now to contend. What
remained would, he 'doubted not, be van-
quished, as those which preceded them had
been, by the wisdom of ParliaMent and
the, firmness of the people.—(Loud cheer-
ing.)—lle then moved his first Resolution for
a grant of thirteen . millions in Annuities-
-12,500,000/. for Great Britain; and 500,0001.
for Ireland.

Mr. MA.nEnt.iy wished, before he 'proceeded
to make any obgervations on the statement of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, to ask one or two
questionS. En the first place, the surptus of the
Ways and Means of 1820, comprising both mo-
ney. paid on account, and that arising from the
actual produce of the duties, appeared, from the
statement which had been distributed, to Amount
to 81,630/. The difference, however, between
the estimate for the year 1820 and the sum raised
was considerably more. By another item he ob-
served that the miscellaneous services for 1820
were charged at 2,444,1001., whereas only
2,100,000/. had, been voted for them. These•
two points required explanation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQuER, observed,
with respect to the first point, that a part.of the
overplus had been carried to the Consolidated
'Fund, and the remainder, by an ACt of Parlia-
ment of the present year, had been made appli-
cable to the supply of the year. With respect
to the miscellaneous services, it was true that
only 2,100,000/. was narged for them in the
Budget of last year; but about 300,000/. had
been previously voted for the service, he be-
lieved, of the militia;, but he was not quite sure
whether it was under that head.

Mr. MABEIME ir then rose and said, that the
observations he should make would refer princi-
pally tattle Supplies. In the early part of the
Session he had suggested a saving of upwards of
two millions, but that suggestion had been re-
jected. The saving now stated by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, he was sorry to say, was very
small. .It was not proportioned to that economy
Which the prederit situation of tho country so irn-

•
tor:: sheer the nicessiif of
this economy, he would' take a general vie* of
the- state- of our financial affairs. The present
'interest upon the whole of our- debti.funded and
unfunded, and including the Russian and Dutch
loans and the Irish Annuities, amounted to
48,328,Mg.; and the money for which-this in-
terest was payable, had been borrowed on spe-
cific terms, and the lender had been . assured;
that a Sinkingd Fund was expressly appropriated
for its gradual. repayment. To think-of saving
from such a fund as this, would undoubtedly be
highly.unjust; except as to the five per-tents.
from which ultimately he thought a qualified
saving might be made to the amount of 1,600,000/.
Upon the subject of •the debt he would say a

few passing words. Much had been said in doors
as, well as out of doors upon the propriety, the
necessity of taxing it. He for one, however,
thought that those who had embarked their pro-
perty in the Funds, had already made great sacri.,
ficei upon occasions of public emergency. Gentle-
men talked of borrewing froni the Sinking Fund,
but in his opinion it was•absolute foill'y to talk of
borrowing; it was taking away from'the Sinking
Fund and diminishing the property ofJhe'Fun.d-
holder. This species of property•had contribut-
ed largely to the public tenders, as much, .he
.be-
lieved, _since the beginning of the war, as 1-12th
of its whole amount. He had, said enpngh to
Justify his opinion that nothing Could with jus-
tice he saved from the interest of the debt ; but
_on the...re' m
mainder of the taxes, amounting .to 26
or 2t he_thought a__ considerable saying
might bo-made—(Hear;- hear !)—from the Army,
the Navy, the Ordnatic:i; and 'the Miscellanies:
(Hear; hear, hear !)—With respect to the pro-
prietk of saving- from the Civil L he 'had
his doubts ; but upon the points he had men-
tioned his opinion was clear, The Commit-
tee of 1818 had.,recommended.
certain , re luc-
tions, but not one of them had taken 'effect;
and the annual expenditure had ur every' year
exceeded the sum reCOMinended 'by the Com
mittee. The Committee of 1818. had, he thought,
takenea fair and dispassionate View of the coml.
try,.and sorry was he that the turbulence- of-the
times was made an excuse'for :incurring apart of
the present enormous expettco. The House and
the other branches of the:Legislature had passed
strong coercive laws,- abridging they liberties of
the.people, and.althoUgh thodanger which ren-
dered. them- necessary was. a mere temporary d a
ger, the laws therne-selves had -been, made perma-
Iteht, .*as the removal of those dangers Which
he conceived rendered a: -considerable portion of
the present expence altogetherenneceSSary: The
expence of the. army might-be reduced atyleast.a
million. Upon this subject he spOke with confi-
dence,.although he: had net taken an active part
in the debates of the Session. The Hon. Member
for Aberdeen had, very fortunately for the coun-
try,directedhis valuable exertions to this subject,
and:had adopted a mode which must ultimately
bring.about a reduction of public expence. He
had hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would
-himself' have proposed- a reduction of 10,000
men from the Army ; but to show the inconsis-
tency of Ministers on all subjects of, this nature,
it was only. necessary to remind the. House, that
-.when.
_he (Mr. • Hume) proposed a .measure of
economy, he was metAq a motion for the pre-
vious question ; that Ministers themselves after-
wards came -forward- with a set ..of resolutions
speaking of 'the necessity of economy, and of
vigilance over charges, relating to the manage-
ment. of Public Affairs, and that, subsequently
they proposed and . caused a resolution .for
1,900,0001. more thanfthe sum recommended by
the Committee of Finance as the limit of our ex-
pence.—(Hear, hear,: hear Right. Hon.
Gentleman had adverted-to, the :Sinking Fund,
but he (Mr. Maberle.y) -should not follow, him
through a detail, composed. partly cf truth and
partly of fiction. When the Audit Bill should
be brought before the House, he would 'have a
better opportunity of enlarging upon this subject',
and he then ,most certainly should propose a
More simplified mode Of keeping the public ac-
counts. He meant to propose something resembl-
ing :what was called by Merchants a Balance
Sheet. The Right lion. Gentleman had been
at some pains to spew the situation of the Sink-
ing
Fund for the present year, but -his statement
had been very confused. Indeed, it now appeared
that a larger sum was due upon Exchequer Bills
than the House had been informed of. .He be-
lieved the difference was not less than 4 or
500,000/. Upon this-subject also he was deter-
mined to move for a full and clear account.-.
Sinking Fu‘nd lie thought absolutelynecessaryt
sustain public credit; and had economy been
resorted to at a proper thbe, the country would
have had an efficient Sinking Fund, fully able to
answer its intended purpose. In the year 1792
Mr. Pitt took an extended view of 'our financial
situation, and proposed the permanency of the
Sinking Fund; in order to bring the reduction of
the Debt to an absolute 'certainty ; and how• far
that Fund had been suffered to remain perma-
nent the House and the Country knew too well.
—The people , wished for economy, but they
wished it to come .from proper sources. They
objected to the large standing Army and
when the
.people saw the facility with which
excessive supplies were granted, they could
not but be dissatisfied. Ile wits far from taking a
gloomy view of the country. That could not be a
gloomy view by which it was' seen that the
country could supply 62 millions annually- for
Taxes.. The making of new roads, -the erection
of bridges, digging of canals, and enlargement of
cities, sheaved that there had been an enormous
increase of capital, and the country had a right
,to expect a progressive improvethent in every
thing else. The country he certainly thought
was in a'high state of affluence, and only wanted
an economical Executive Government to make it
perfectly happy. Whatever might be the con-
sequence; he trusted the country would keep
faith with the national creditor. Distress, he
admitted, prevailed among :peculiar. interests ;
but time would do much, and the agriculturist
would be 'relieved by a reduction of taxes, whiCh
must necessarily occasion a fall_ in -the price of
labour.

. Mr...AsTELL had no desire to take away from
the general satisfaction which must he: felt by

' -the licaist at the-sPeeeli -or the-Right_ rien.ithe
Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but he could not
refrain. from saying a word upon that. part of the
speech which referred to the transactions be-
tween Government and theEastrlndia Company.
That a large sum was dtie ict the Company no
one. could doubt, and he was astonished to hear
the Right Hon. Gentlemin talk :On the subject
as he had. The Company had lent their_island
of St. Helena to Government for the safe cus-
tody of Buonaparte, and had expended consider-
able. sums on- that account. - It was a fact that I
payment of-a million of the debt had last-January
been promised for the then ensuing May.
Mr. CALCRAFT was, happy to learn from the
statementof the Right Ilod. Gentleman that the.
Revenue had been paid in ; but, he would ask,
by what means had the. payment been obtained.,?,
OucCode of Revenue Laws, had been supported
and enforced in England by the Navy—in Ire-
land by the Army. The grand result of the
Hon. Gentleman's- statement_ wasi that Six-mil-
lions had 'been added Ito., the debt- of the country.
What would' be said of a man in private life;
who, with an income of 6.0,0001, per annum, had
mat five or-six thousand a year at his command
for the support of hiS family, the rest being
swallowed up by the payment of loans and mort-:
gages? Would it-not be said that hewai Avery
improvident man ? .and his case, he (Mr. Cal-
craft) contended, was that of this . coun-
try.- 'We collected the -revenue , certainly,
but at the expence. of the people. The distress
of the country was extreme, and it could not be
denied-;.that it' was increased by the, takes.
The., Right Honourable. Gentleman had alluded
-triumphantly to the Saving ThinkS. Did the
Right-lion. Gentleman not know of the general
distress and want: of employinent whiCh. pre-
vailed, compelling great—numbers of the people
to seek parish felief ? And -mould the Right
lion. Gentleman then infer, from the state of the
funds of the Saving Banks.i. that the 'lower orders
of the people were in a state of prOsperity?' And
was the House, after the grievous -catalogue which
had beenirecapitulated„to .pass a vote ...which •
would. say that .waa.state of things 'which ought
to give .-satisfaction?': -Wonld, dip :flight.. -lion.
Geiftletnan • say that-the six-or 'eight 'hundred
millions, of. debt were an increase of the 'capital
of the country ? It was, on the contrary, .a
mortgage upon the land, and every'estate in the. '
country. was worth-,so..much less,in..proportian as
the:ea:pal-debt of the country, was increased.
Sir. Jou NEWPO:II:T:eaid fie-.should not trouble

the House at: any length. He merely rose to. lay
before the House a plain statement of the effect
of excessive taxation upon the revenue of [reland,
and to shew the fallacious view •of the subject
wrath bad been taken by•the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman. opposite. In Ireland the effect of in-
creased taxation was the falling off of the, reve-
nue ; and he feared the same_result would ulti-
mately be found in England. When the taxation
was so heavy as to break in upon capital, it
was easy to see that the latter must be gra-
dually diminished and ultimately annihilated.
The tax upon tobacco was -originally 9d in the
pound. It was raised to Is., and the revenue-
then received less than it had received by the
smaller tax. The same effect attended a rise in

the AutieS upon malt and spirits and in the .arti-
cle of rum the deficiency‘was.particularly. de-
seiving of :attention. The tax •was originally
ss. Sd. per gallon.. It was raised-to-10s., and the
receipt in the•reyenue under the new tax was not
one eleventh of. what it hadbeen under the old.

—The articles he had meiitiorted might be called

luxuries, but habit had rendered them necessa-
ries; and he produced these instances because
the Right Hon. Gentleman had talked about the
flattering state of the country. Indeed, when
he recollected the many 'Petitions which had
been presented to the House, complaining of the
deep disticegs in the manufacturing. and agricul-
-611%1 interests, he was astonished at the language
of the Right lion. Gentleman, who surety must
h4ve disregarded the evidence of his own
Before he .sat down he could not but notice that

the leading Agricultural Gentlemen who com-
plained so loudly of distress, had in general either
kept away from the House, or. taken no part in
the discussion on the Supplies. •
Mr. RicArtno said that the hopes 'held out by
the Right Iron. Gentleman'respeqting,the Sink-

ing Fund, when he introduced the last Budget,
had not been realised. The National Debt had

been increased last year by a sum 0f1.,7,2920441.
in addition to. which five millions of Exchequer
Bills had been 'funded, and an increased, defi-
ciency of 517,0001. had . occurred, and. Which
should be' added to the already considerable
surnsdeficient— The lion. Gent. here alluded to
an error:-Of a sum of 87,0001. in the Treasury
AcCounf.s,JOr the purpose of showing how little
reliance could be placed .upon -them. lie con-
tended that' we had contracted a debt of upwards
of '24 millions.. The. fron. Gehtleman here fol-
lowedf-the -Right4lon..Gentleman (the. Chancel-
lor of the '.ExChe(Wr) through the different
items, and contended that in most instances he'ltad
made deduCtions. in which the documents didlnot
bear him out. The Sinking Fond for
...the year
appeared to be really but. 2,809,000/., and the
principal hope of the Right. Hon. Gentleman was,
that the Revenue- would -Continue to ,be as pro-
ductive as• at present. 'On the subject of the
Sinking Fund, he would say a few-words. lie
was not inimical to its principle, provided that
its.,security Could be rende-red inviolable. The
lion. Gent. here entered into the history of the
establishment, of the
.Sinking Fund' by Mr. Pitt,
by which that Statesman had intended, by placing
its receipts in the Bank. of England, to .protect it

from the rapacity of Ministers 7; and he (Mr. R.)
would ask what.had become of it ? When taking
7 millions from that Fund, the Hon. Gentleman

spoke in such terms as if he had discovered an
inexhaustible mine of wealth.—(Hear
sooth, his great fears were, not that the country
would be overwhelmed by poverty, but', that it
would be' ruined by the increase of its prospe-
rity.—(Hear, hear-I)—lfe (Mr. Ricardo) would
assert that no accumulation of capital could pos-,
sibly be injurious to,the country„ and he, would
contend that taking 7frorn the Sinking Fund was
a.gross~violatio❑ of faith
,with the •public'c.redi
tor, even though it had been dope. with ale sanc-

tion áf Parliament-----and yet, after that, the Right
'Hon. Gentleman would talk of the Sinking Fund.
He (Mr..kidardo). would say. that the Sinking
Fund should be is the,pDekets of the people ; and
that in its present state the Sinking Fund was ri-
diculOus. The Hon. Gent. here read an extract
from•the speech of Mr,Pitt in•1792,0n the subject
of the Siliking- Funcl,and said that Minister's having,
Violated that Fungi, he could not confide .in them,-
for, which reason he.,should .vote against that
'Fund altogether.. He did .not mean, however,
to say that the Public creditor ought not to have
security, but he would ever .object to the placing
Of any Funds in the power, or at the' disposal of
Ministers., He approved of ,the principle
,of
Saving Ranks, and mentioned some instances in
which that principle might be applied Co. advan-
tage; and concluded iv dissenting' fronth.e
rea-
sons given by the
,Right Hon. Gentlenian:fOr.
payment made to the Rank of England.
Mr. LOCKHART said, a design had been
buted tho' Gentlemen of the Agricultural lii-
terest to propose a tax Upon. the Funds.
should never propose it himself, for he was satin-
feed that the. necessity of the case would press it-
self, and ultimately force a law for its elief.
Not one Petition from the Agricultural Interest
proposed any tax upon the Funds. The general
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman he
viewed with considerable apprehension, because
the Right lion. Gentle,man dealt in figures, and
he (Mr.•l_,.) in substance. He had heard 'a great
deal said about the magnanimity shown .by the
fandholder. He could see little magonnimity in
receiving double the sum originally stipulated on
the, contracting of a. debt. The magnanimity he
thought was.all On one side, and the profit on the
other. It never could be denied that, looking at
the altered value of produce, the _country was.,,
paying double what it ought to pay ; and the only
relief which could be obtained for the country
was that which would result from a system of
rigid economy, and an equalization of the public
burthens with respect to all classes of the com-
munity.
Mr. RICARDO and. Mr. MAntaLEY.explained.
Sir..H. PARNELL thought there was a material.
difference between the present statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman and that he had made in
the year 1819. The amount of both statements
was simply this—that three millions of new.
taxes bad •-been- imposed, and yet that only
700,000/. of, revenue had been added to the
Sinking Fund. • -He (Sir Henry) thought the
sources of taxation.had.been exhausted, and that
there.was an end to all increase of our revenue.
He coniidered the poSsibility that our present
situation .of peace might be disturbed, as an addi-
tional reason fOi retrenchment ; as• we otherwise
should be altogether unable to provide for a•war.
. The CHANCELLOR of the•Excutonen, at that
late h'our Of the .night-,-thought it-scarcely neces-
sary- to address the, House, except 'to offera
fling explanation. In. deciding "On this course,
and in not answering the Hon.. .Members oppo-
site, he-had no wish to offer the slightest. disre-
spect.; bu.t they had 'princiPally answered och-
laUgh.)—lte had given no opinion on
the Jostice of the East India debt. He had,
merely, stated that the account. had' not been
brought to a settlement, and that there. we're din
poled claimS. He thought the plan suggested
by. Mr. Woodrow,: and ceferied to, by the, Hon.
Member- for Portarlingtop,--:.Was objectionable.
The advantage 'held out t& subscribers would'. b)a

too remote. :Saving Banks were much more Ad-
'yantageous. on account of theirsimplicity, and th.st
immediate 4.dvantige which they offered.
Mr. Hume disapproved of. the conduct of Mi
nisters in'keeping:up an enormous and unneces-
sary expenditure, when it 'was in their power to
make very considerable savings. For some years_
past, the expences of collecting tho. Revenue, so
far from being reduced as they might lie,, had.
been progressively increased.. In Scotland, they
had been increased' from 5 to :81-• per cent. 'Hie-
contended that, by the, reduction. whiCti. it
was in the poWer of 11.7inisters• to have made is

this branCh alone, an annual -Sum of 1,400,0031.. •
might have been saved to the country ; ' and, -w hen
it was considered that during•the last six. years,
there. had been a decrease in all the neces-
saries of life, the expences in all the, public de-
'partmentS'might have I)een greatly diminished.
He next alluded. to,- the enormous expence that.
had been incurred by the detention of Buona-,.
parte, in consequence of which a Million •of
money was now. due by the Government to the.
East, India. Company—the. whole expences were
two millions ; and all these had, during the last_
five years, been kept from the knowledge of thif
House. He begged that the House might not
be led .astray by any extravagant prospects that
might be held out respecting the Sinking Fund,
which- were altogether fallacious ; for it appeared •
that, instead of a Sinking Fund of five millions,
which had:been proposed and prOmed
years ago, the. fund amounted to no- more than - •
1,500,0001. ; .so that, in this alone, there wal'a :
deficiency of three millions and a half. ;At the
very-time when-this Sinking Fund was proposed,
he,(Mr. flume) stated that one .million must b 4
paid as interest on. Exchequer Bills,--an expence
which, al the time, was kept from the view of
the House: • • . •

. .
.Mr..f.r.r.teE could see no reason for not giving
up the Sinking Fund altogether. It made us ap-
pear to foreign nations in darker.colours than
we really were, by shelving our nominal rather •
than our substantial Pebt.,.. He agreed. that the
receipts of our. Revenue had •a flourishing ap-::
pearance, but his hopes of a reduction of expence
had not been realized, and he. was satisfied ihat
Government would not reduce unless reduction
were forced upon them. At the same time he
Avas happy, he was proud to find the state of the:
'country.so much better than he: had expected it.
—('Near, hear!)

The first Resolution .was, then put and agreed.,
'next was for the appropriation‘ of az
part of the Sinkii!g Fund for the public service,
as stated-in the speech of the Chancetior of the
Exchequer.—Upon the question being put,
Mr. flumt: begged, though it was not.exactly
regular, to bring under the notice of the Chan.;
ictqlor of the Exchequer the detailed manner 'in;
'which the charge was made for Naval Stores.
Those for the Ordnance, he thought, should be'