The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, April 30.

Their Lordships assembled at Five o'Clock.
Lord Campbell, the .11azquis of Salisbury, and several
other Noble Lords, presented petitions for and against
the Dissenters' Chapels Bill.
The Marquis of NORMANBY presented a petition
complaining of a practice which had lately sprung up, of
enlisting boys out of union workhouses without the
consent of their parents. -
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from
Sussex, complaining of the refusal by the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners to renew Teases of property held of sup--
pressed prebendaries. The Noble- Duke, in supporting
the prayer of the petitipners, complained of the hardship
which this refusal had imposed both on the large land-
owners, and the small farmers in the country.
Lord IVIIARNCLIF.O said the object of this Bill
was to have the Church property made available to
Church purposes. The chief complaint which his
Nolle Friend had made was, that although the Commis-
sioners might grant leases for a stated number of years,
yet that they could not give reversionary leases. He (Lord
Wharncliffe) could not see how the Noble Duke was jus-
tified in finding fault with the Commissioners for making
the most of the property consigned to their care.
He could assure his Noble Friend that in every case
where a tenant in possession sought a reversionary in-
terest he invariably got the preference.
The Duke of RICHMOND said the question he
wished to put to the Noble Lord was, how a person
could be expected to expend 10,0001. on a property in
which he had no reversionary interest ?
The Bishop of LONDON thought that the Ecclesias-
tical Commissioners would be guilty of unfairness, if
they did not try and make the most of the property
over which they were appointed as agents. Why, if
their Lordships would recollect, they would see that in
cases where the Crown lands were to be let, the
Noble Lord opposite refused, in his capacity at the
head of the Woods and Forests, to grant any new leases,
and therefore he (the Bishop of London) thought that
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were fully justified in
adopting the same course as that which the Crown took.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE characterised the
conduct of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as unjust
and arbitrary, and expressed his opinion to the effect
that if such conduct had for a moment been anticipated
at the time of the appointment of the Commission, that
Commission never would have been appointed. He
hoped the Noble Duke, on an early occasion, would
bring this subject forward in a more tangible shape than
hehad done that evening.
After a few words from the Earl of BESBOROUGH and
the Marquis of CLANRICARDE,
The Bishop of LONDON said he ought to state in the
name of the Commissioners, that every proposal made to
them for the renewal of leases would meet with ample
consideration by them.
The Bishop of EXETER said he had opposed the ap-
pointment ofthe Ecclesiastical Commissioners from the
first, but that Cemmission having been appointed, it was
their duty to obtain as much money from the Church
property as they could, in order to provide for the reli-
gious instruction of the people. He did not rise from
any personal feelings, but merely because, as a member
of that. Commission, he was deeply impressed with the
importance of the subject.
The Marquis of NORMANBY gave notice, that, on
Thursday next, he should present a petition from a
number of artisans in Edinburgh, praying for the adop-
tion of sanitary regulations in large towns.
The Duke of RICHMOND gave notice that on Thurs-
day next he should move for certain returns with re-
spect to the importation of foreign wool.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, after presenting
a petition from the north of Ireland, praying for the le-
galization of Presbyterian marriages, asked whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to make
any grant for the improvement of the harbours of Do-
naghadee and Portpatrick.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said the report of the
engineers sent down to examine the ports, induced her
Majesty's Government not to make any grant for, the
purposes alluded to by the Noble Lord.
The Forestalling (Ireland) Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Friday..
DEBTORS AND CREDITORS BILL.
Lend COTTENHAM, in moving the second reading
of the Debtors and Creditors Bill, said that he felt
confident he should be able to show to their Lordships,
from undoubted authority, that the law, as it stood now
with respect to the imprisonment for debt, was perfectly
useless and futile. In support of that, he could adduce
the- report of the year 1832, which report was signed
by some of the most eminent men in the legal profession,
amongst whom was Sir Frederick Pollock, now Chief
Baron 'of the Exchequer, and Mr. Justice Wightman.
He called upon their Lordships to remove a grievance
the existence of which no one doubted. In the month
of March last no less than four hundred and twelve per-
sons passed through the insolvent Court; and if their
Lordships took that number as the monthly average,
nearly five thousand persons annually passed through the
Insolvent Court. Their Lordships would therefore see'
how extensive was the evil which he was then soliciting
Parliament to abolish. The Noble and Learned Lord
then proceeded to describe the various Insolvent Acts.
which have been passed since the time of Queen Anne.
The first Insolvent Act on the statute-book was that of
Queen Anne, which their Lordships upon examination
would find to be very rude in its character. It provided
that any person could get rid of his debts by means of
enlisting into the army.—(A laugh.) This law was in
the statute-book, and, he had no doubt, was in
force at the present time ; but he apprehended
that her Majesty's army now-a-days was not
very often recruited by means of the Insolvent
Act. He then came to' what was called the Lords' Act,
which provided that unless a man gave up the whole of
his goods on becoming insolvent, he should be subject
to transportation for seven years. This was found to be
harsh, and another Act was passed, which was called
Lord Redesdale's Act ; but a man could not avail him-
self of that Act until he had been in prison for three
months. This Act was found to be unsatisfactory,
and it was consequently repealed; and the Act at pre-
sent in existence came into operation. By this Act, a
man might apply to the court for his discharge the day
after ho was conveyed to prison. But by 4he
reports to which he had 'referred, it would an--
pear that, generally speaking, a man could not ob-
tain his discharge, even under the most favour-
able circumstances, under two months. .The Noble
and Learned Lard then referred to the Act which passed
in the year 1836, abolishing imprisonment of debt on
mesne process. This he had always looked upon as a
most important Act, although he recollected that at the
time it was paised considerable alarm was felt amongst
the commercial community. Since it had come into
operation, there had been no petitions against it, and he
had not heard that credit had been impaired by it. He
did not, however, think that this Act had had fair play,
inasmuch as now, instead of arresting a debtor on mesne
process, the creditor obtained judgment against his
debtor, and took him in execution. The Noble
Lord then referred to the report of the exa-
mination 'of certain witnesses, who were exa-
mined two years ago with respect to this subjeCt.
The amount of the cost expended ill one year by in-
solvent debtors_vvas.B6,97o/., , being an average of 151.
for each person who got his discharge. He thought
that there was comliderable hardship in the distinction
bet Ween bankrUpts and insolvents, by which the latter
were doomed io inieispninent and subject to subsequent
contingencies.. Alter thei r Lordships considered the.
high authority `Which'had been adduced on this subject,'
he trusted their Lord,hips would give their sanction to a
measure which would have the effect of abolishing iM-
prisonment, which tended to injure commercial credit as
well as inflicting' many social evils.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he thought
nothing could be more inconsistent than the law as it
now stood, namely, that there should be a distinction
between its application to the cases or insolvents and
bankrupts. The unfortunate insolvent, after he had
given up all his property and passed through the court,
when he began the world again had all his debts still
hanging over him, and it certainly required more energy
than fell to the lot of ordinary men to exert their talents,.
ingenuity;er 'industry, when they knew the result would
be for the benefit of others. In conclusion, he should
express. his 'concurrence in the Bill of hiS Noble an
Learned Friend, but he hoped that he would defer it
for a' short tithe, in order that a measure of such im-
portance might receive the consideration it deserved.
_

Lord BROUGHAM hoped that some penalty might
be imposed in way of misdemeanour upon those who
were guilty or fraud towards their creditors, or of frau-
dulently transferring their property to others, or of
giving bills of sale. Such were the provisions of the
bankruptcy laws of almost all the commercial states of
Europe, and he hoped they would be adopted in this
country.

The-Duke of RICHMOND perfectly agreed in what
had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend, who had
jut sat down; as to the propriety of having some penal
enactment, as applicable to those who ' were guilty of
fraud towards their creditors.
Lord DENMAN said he concurred in the Bill intro-
duced by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Cotten-
ham) which he hoped would be so dealt with as to enable
their Lordships to gain every information respecting it.
He hoped sincerely this Bill would be carried into effect.
With respect to the provision suggested by „his Noble
and Learned Friend near hint (Lord Brougham), con-
cerning persons in the last stage of insolvency, obtaining
goods by false reprtsentations from others, he could
only say, that that .was amply provided for by the
criminal code at present ; for a case of this kind had
lately' come before him in his judicial capacity, where the
offender was convicted of felony, as having obtained the
goods under false pretences. He thought the subject of bills
of sale was one which deserved the deepest consideration
froth the Legislature, for it was not at all unlikely that,
in many instances, persons exchanged these instruments
with each other ; but still he would be rather jealous
of adopting precipitately any measure which would make
the execution of such a deed a -.felony. There was
another point to which he would briefly allude, and that
was where persons allowed others the use of their pro-
perty, and in consequence that those persons got in
debt. He thought that it Would be only justice if such
property was to be considered to belong to the assignees.
After afew words from Lord COTTENHAM in reply,
and from the LORD CHANCELLOR,
The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on this day fortnight.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

The HOUSE
toooFk
tCheocMhMairOaNt
tSh,e
BASINGSTOKE AND NEWBURY RAILWAY.
jupsuraill h3oo.ur.
On the motion for the further consideration of the re-
port on the Basingstoke and Newbury Railway,.
Mr. C. RUSSELL rose for the purpose of proposing
that the consideration of the report be postponed till
the next session of Parliament. He did this on the
ground that the line of railway which had been pro-
posed to the town of NeWbury from the Great Western