The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-18 00:00:00

hear
ies to
nka i

346. t
dull
ter of

IhSC
itll ea
3ient•

cl..es

Lis.--

rn t°
.. will
,ovid

be. II
,ers.)
full
)uset
be

that

hos!
!e t"

tight

aroe

i on

sur

;hef
ring

`ease,
IN, ILL _ - -
e "roe rate of defy or: reign sugar, the produce of
tits
itt:ip,,,leastieiett.iaieypvaarrtitiotfi.oheotp:stolp,:eisition, and whether he intended
bit • t;ght? vol:-,,ition that was submitted
241 "' tL
dln, • seed that in ca the House should affirm the
wr • is te
eigt fre OUICI proi,C Se the same amount of duty on
lit, e. sugar as Was original' proposed.
tse,isered',e';,9ll,lt.ANE said, that on Friday eight last, he
'jays
tds duty to support ber Majesty's 3ovez:nment in
'jays the motion of. his Hon. Friend near htrn. Her
Itse,s,Covernment were then defeated by 20; and he
Iteein`r that it was now their intention to put the same
litoileer•hred again to the House. He had objected to
41!1, gee t:len. by her Majesty's Governmenton the Factories
of ensidered that soniethieg more was due to the
teethe s that )louse when once given than that it should
!'tne question submitted for its consideration
tie resget, tiler( fore, that this question had ceasedone
/,,,,,Yett to the amount of tisitv—he cor:sidered it was TIGW
It4lete.j°a, of the independence of that House. —( Loud
otes.i', it was a question involving the privileges of the
opal '11:} would say more, it was a vestion involving the
k4ist't °floor of ever ,Member who formed pint of the
Zattlis ti'fu I-I'•!iday Tight. Y Under these circumstances, painful
setatila 'tan atai taking that extended view of the Ca.se,
then, nQt support her Majesty's Government by voting
tfidt Illgnt.—( Laughter and Cheers.)
iktseia.rew cords from M. COLLET T which were totally
Alt li) the Gal.er
411 N • ICBLE LAIY.
I it said, he was one of those who generally
141eIsere Government, her Majesty's G but he yet felt that
▪ hppur, questions on which he could not gu the fob length
ht te 'l,tig the tiovernment • and he, therefore, felt he
rht to
the vote he was abeut to give on the
;esti°
11 eeeasion. He was as independent of the
isk 01. of the Government as any individual either
etereo°at of that House. On two occasions, two
;14,, steeltieseceasion , he had von d against her Majesty's
L'hiteed."t• He abuded to the factory question, and, not
j;11Ise i:g the declarations of the Prime nosier on that
bad still felt it his duty, as an independent Mem-
SerGf rt Rouse, to support the line of conduct which he had
selka reite)nithose two former occasions; and the third time he
'itt• eet Itt the same way. On the present occasion he was
et eel to alter the vote he had given before on the ques-
l!ttlo °4 the House. The Hon. Gentleman who had just
tlth.eltia had supported a principle which he believed to be
1:!, he stood forward as the advocate of consistency
,laistee Majeety's Government, and in support of that
Nee)! he tureed round and declared that he would re-
ItZesoa.vote which he had given for the benefit of the court-
Hoe nd cries of 4. No, no.") If he had misunderstood
Gentl
Is tit -Man he begged his pardon. He (Mr. e-
ethe necessary to maintain his consistency. With respect
hlitigtrestion of the amount of duty, he had no hesitation In
leatt he was opposed to the propositiou
.of the Govieirn-
1,,,:t4er e was equally opposed to the proposition of the on.
°'" Bristol, and on that account he had abstained
kith °"ag ot • .
kh yeoti
.Friday night, beause he could not satisfy him-
:jell the, el'her one way ore he other. The question on
were about to vete was, whether the duty on co-
eitthßar should be red ced to 20s. or not. He cons•dered
Ila,t`itlestion was of too great importance to be entertained
4„tsieeitteidental way on that occasion. He said that the
kla le :Is one of large imp' rtatsee, and he had no besit.l-1
we'ing it as his opinion, that if the duty on colones
4„'re to be reduced a reduction of 4s. per cwt.
w that e• 'dgive substantial benefit
itt
istat4 fella
w as. wou.
'kite e op
interests, or be beneficialg to the
.public. He bad
portunity of hearing the discussion on a firmer
gib bad bed he heard the Right Hon. Baronet that even-
t-
-114445/41;e considered that this was a matter of great impos
tsas „respect to the finances of the country. The income-
tt e:oout. financial and it was of the highest import-
Lis the situation of tee country should be looked
Ores ' toe face, and, therefore, this question of the sugar
41104,41311eired their most serious attention. For these
Plhesee should vote against the proposition of the Hon.
1,(4' Bristol.
S7klae. ARRUBTON said the character which the Hon.
forlb Bristol had given of his amendment, contrasted
re •
De Pr°Pesit. ofthe Government, namely, that it afforded
tit, • kteet: 1"
lee sgti
..• .00 to the West India interest, had
14':t it, That was the reason that ieduced his von eon
1/4) and, therefore, unless the Honourable. Member
.for
k 4,% Prepared to do away with the 4s. discriminating
Leave the duty as 20s. on- colonial and 3es. on forign,
ktlir 4Reat the vote he had given upon the former occasion.
Ltise • uGUGL AS begged to state it was his decided in-
• Utider present circumstances, to vote with the Govern.
Oliouts of laughter.)
eiiejJ3DUCHERE said there was mot only the impor-
kittei I°llof the sugar duties before them, but there was
kere important question, how the course it was pro-
saeyddopt would affect the character of that House?—
ht
I;laeers.) He was fully aware that circumstances
se when—a Minister having committed an error or
Nl:sleeting from misinformation—it would he justifiable
a vote which had been come to. He had himself sup-
prsed.ord Althorp when the vote upon the malt-tax had been
• asad he had supported the Bight Hon. Gentleman
elite aseet.eel) in his conduct upon the Factories Bill, and had
eNote the course the Government had taken. Those
iitaistetietu gr!at and important questions, justified by the cir-
Litroeees in which they stood ; but his fears now were upon
Cliieuelton which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel)
sitqhi Put the present question. In the very unimpor-
tlate,eh had been made of the question, his (Mr. La-
ee',6 ths),anxiety restedfurther, the language in
tt:ght Hon. Gentleman had addressed that House,
e Wre which no Minister ought to address to it—lan-
:Z% oetellAlr. Pitt, even in the plenitude of his power,
an' tot have ventured to use.— t Loud cheers.) With
.
e the question itself, he had stated his reasons for his
slesefullY on Friday last, that he did not feel it necessary
a teagain upon the subject. As he said then,
Vpe'fuought now, that whilst the measure was far
sse'ltslaset. still, in the amendment of the Hon. Member for
tc'ertlsur• Miles), he found so much more benefit to the con-
eit it_rl to the proposition of the Government, that
.he must
isetile hie! support. He begged, however, to give not that,,
egtehrolui?er time; if no one else proposed it, he should
th Proposition to the House, to put an extra duty of
044 eisighlys refined sugars from our own colonies—that is,
47,4e2tt1e :thie duty on the fuse clayed colonial 245., and on the
tireie
.l ttaYed toreign 345. lie thought if they applied the
of „ terig principle to the foreign sugars, it would be better
tohki'4.as well to the colonial. With regard to the charge
441 ,j'aeY brought against him and his friends on that side
pt,,' kt,4T'e. he w holly repudiated as inapplicable to any nar-
-4,, east of all to himself. When the notice on the subject
ihittretultr. dules: w' riven was in Somersetshire, and on
•p, to town he found that hr had actually misunderstood
tit ieirli`ort of 'he -amendment. The first. time he heard of
eteenort of his friends to support the amendment was in
(I,lt ~75, and if there was a conspiracy, all he could say was,
v174:0", have originated across the table of that House.—
tettlt )He should regret, intleed, if the House re-
-14 eat night the decision it had arrived at on Friday last,
e_art was sure that such a step would have a tendency to
44itee at Heinle in the eyes of the people. He hoped the
k'steet.!r Would come when any majority of that House would
„keel: Support a'Government upon such terms and in such
tiit'atio I. as he Righ lion. Genteman had censideed it
to thet safety oft his Ministry to attempt to forcer upon
bpt
laeo* ERL, in explanation, said the word conspiracy had
tat spire ied by him. All that he hail said was to express
lee, et 01 that what had happened- on Friday night had, to
ewords, " taken place with previous concert."
a'ttay n ISRAELI said he was not present at the debate on
letesetileieht and therefore he was not acquainted with the
,711141/1 ,t4tS of those conspirators, who now were merely called
ete t 4ait°'!--( A laugh)—and therefore he was naturally some.
re onished at that which had transpired. But be was
Zitlio!°Oished to hear that they were called, at four o'clock,
prise the painful sight of the resignation of a Ministry ;
el'el,euer. present circumstances, and seeing how matters
tlll.teacneorilld not refrain from congratulating the House that,
te"tY had witnessing the resignation of the Administration,
t`t °II).Y witnessed the Prime Minister move an amend-
tit (Laughter.) There cettainly were to be found cases
fr. sours to the present one. There was the case of the malt
tekl. IV Years ago, when Lord Althorp induced the then
1.1 eta], ~rs to rescind a vote they had deliberately come
tte tikliee(Alr. D'lsra li) was not in the House at that time,
tie had read arid he3rd a good deal of the proceedings
%titled. iten took s.lace, and he knew that step was
eeeta by eminent men of both parties in
i,:,llltse ',trY as tnost extra.ordinary, and only to be
then 135 the inexperience of a House that had
kit kn bee 1, reconstructed. a ea, several years elapsed be-
Cle,:';',lar circumstance occurred, and that was very ye-
: eaeltiacts they had been called upon to rescind a vote which
the ha3ci interested the great body of the nation, and the
leteletlee submitted to that process which men of great ex-
ele 411,'°tIle Years before had accepted with great reluctance,
liott tiowe result of an overbearing neces,ity.—( Hear, hear.)
\hare w.ciolY a month had passed—one month only—and that
sel'ader "1 again to be brought before the country—( Cheers)
otsverclreumst'ances, he could not help saying, that no man,
t{:be ,8 side ee
, the House he might belong to, could only de-
hsetharZe" as must have an inevitable tendency to degrade
41;0.) of them all in the eyes of the people.—( Loud
ease Late,„ It Was possible that Ministers might retain power by
• Process—( Hear, hear)—hut he for one certainly
5l) ifTe character of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert
:4111 robe supposed he could much value power retained by
eeatraordinary, if not unconstitutional.—(Great cheer-
trle thought the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)
'eseald !eat with a little more delicacy his supporters under
these tire
tip 1.4 ornstances—(Cheers)—and, for his part, he thought
eere th light to hope that he should not unnecessarily drag
tests ~,rough the mire.—( Loud laughter and cheers.) They
geci through in May—(Laughter)—they were again
e.St
all (iragfaed through in June (Loud laughter) or,
rtheisseyents, the Right Honourable Gentleman said
ialie,;"' Unless you rescind the vote you came to, I will not
It% deit'olt°ihearthe responsibility- of office.—( Hear, hear. )
al Gentle they had a right to expect from the Right
(ee yitenan, after all that had happened, that be should
seetaghteeni in a position as little degrading as possible.—se
ttr:ielatiagaen_d cheers. ) In his (Mr. D'lsraeles) opinion,
sort
too
teet .ef d the details of these affairs should frame a s
tr.rti etParliamentary disgrace—( Cheers)—that might tell
c. (what
tot Price came the prospect of the shades of private
el. lase °ad laughter and cheers.) It would say to them "thus
liketiets'ei°u go and no farther ;" we have guaged your inde-
te digrasgo no furti er or you will have to submit to the pub-
)esetiet, tee of recanting your own votes, or we must submit
leell'to private life. —( Roars of laughter.) Why, in the
re• th when the Rightßaronet (Sir R. Peel) ep-
ee:4 he lie motion of the Noble Lord (John Russell), he
on' egad never entered into, and never would enter into the
44Y two Y, and he never would enter into that of cheap sugar.
old die mare had elapsed, and they now. found what he said
this t only about slavery, hut about cheap sugar—(Loud
1 teinch,aild Seeing that, he chooses to stake his ministry upon
(*der tes-et` and ext ects his supporters to lose their characters
i!,,;reey Sustain his ministry.—( Loud cheers.) He detests
ICra4t cheern rY place except on the benches behind him.—
th;e4con,sng• ) He repeated they must recollect this was
their time this session they, had been called upon to res•
oft
yetes, and therefore it would be better for the 'kaput
tetaselse_4°,ase—better for the honour of the Prime Minister
That that system should terminate.—(Loud cheer-
eemonbte"e Right onourable Gentleman himself, from his
ftinstlood talents, deserved a better fate than that be should
aloentla erLhe repiaved and continued in power by menacing his
n'' Germeringiog to his opponents.—(Cbeers.) The Right
D, -sernan denied calling them conspirators; he merely
:elaraeli)theni as conspirators, .which reminded him (Mr.
4;teresl el the defence of Fieschi, who denied that he had
eottehinatitott° a censpiracy, but acknowledged being party to a
eci of tetol*-(A laugh.) He obtained power through the
eoeit'tinee ni,'lll will he tries to coerce—he offered to them
keel eiseaotPeencY of his own—(Cheers)—nothing that they
sew ht he Pen—no distinctive line whatever—( Hear, hear)
Pdecal started amazed if any one dared to oppose any
reat she which he himself might think fit to take
ties;up.-.-
esioeat seartere
1:)g.) He thought that his system—and he was
seit 13,1t est in Parliamentary ways—was the right one to
se, to (Mr. D'lsraeli), for one, helieved that it could
he.Pecteeesr e honour of the House, or the honour—which he
ocls).-"sattelethe Right Hon. Gentleman himself—( Hear,
?night be excused, if, on this, as on a foicrer
tqlleit,al°rene'hsee,rretetstered his vote for the same purpose, and in
et leant odeleir, and if he did not follow the example of the
Sktekit, he. (81r ft Douglas), but endeavour to show that,
rei 'hang, . ad given it not without thought, so he should
toibe
ape
without purpose.—( Hear, hear.) And whatever
Horiu.eonsequences so mysteriously referred to by the
appeee _ t.entlenian, certainly he, for one, if he should have
11114111 00 the hustings, should not think he had a less

claim on the confidence of those who sent him to that House,
because he had not, within forty-eight hours, changed his vote,
from being menaced by a Prime Minister.—(Cheers. )
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS begged to say that he had
changed- neither his opinion liar his vote. He had disapproved
of the pro;aosition of the Government and had voted against it ;
he disapproved also of the proposal of the Member for Bristol,
and should oppose that al•o.
Lord SANDON said he thought the proposal of the Hon.
Member for Bristol was a good one, and he should continue to
approve it, and he regretted that the Government did not
adopt it, or something of the kind. He Irei also heard with
regret. what had fallen from his Noble Friend, not so much in
connection with the present question, as from the principle he
seemed to lay down, which seemed to be this—that on no oc-
casion was the Government to be left in a minority that it
would not be considered as a vote of want of confidence. If the
minority were small, still it showed a want of confidence ; if it
were large, the inference would be still vronger ; and whatever
the subject might be,whether sugar, or a bishopric of North Wales,
whenever there w is a coeibinatton of parties he was afraid the
decree had gone firth that a vote of a majority of that House.
whenever it did not agree with the opinion of the Government,
was to be considered a vote ..f want of confidence. This was
a scheme of Government which had never been tried by any
party, Whig, Tory, or Radical, and in a country like this would
n it only render this but every other Government impossible.
He the more regretted this, as he should, in consequence of it,
he debarred as an independent Member from lending it that
efficient support which he could wish. With regard to the
particular ell .stion at issue, he believed that the proposition of
the Hon. Member was an iniyrovernent on that of the Govern-
ment. He begged the West India interest not to exaggerate
the crisis. He believed the natural advantages of the West
Indian colonies were so great, both with respect to climate and
soil, that when the system of free labour should be developed,
they would have no reason to despond.
Mc. SHELL wished to say a few words on this-subject. He
should not follow the example of Hon. Gentlemen on the other
s de, who had spoken more unkindly of her 'Majesty's Govern-
ment than he was disposed to do. As for the Noble Lord who
had ja-t sat down, he seemed to be one of those who, in the
words of Pope, could

" condescend
Som-times to call the Nlinister his friend !"
He could assure he Right Hon. Bsronet that he was under a
mistake if he supposed that there had been any combination or
conspiracy on this question. He believed the Right Hon.
Gent eman was under an entire misaiprehension if he thought
there was any premeditated arrangement between his sup-
porters and those who generally opposed him. This was the
question, putting individual considerations aside. The
proposition was one for making sugar cheaper. In
reference to this discussion, he lool.ed hack to the debate
on Mr. Huskisson's proposition in 1819. That proposition was
agreed to by the Cabinet, and was one for reducing the duty
on foreign sugar to 28s. Mr. Huskisson then argued that,
though the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipated from it
a decrease of the revenue to the amount of 500,0001. annually,
-yet the reduction of price would benefit the public more than
it would injure the revenue. Now, if the doctrine of Mr.
Huskisson were correct, let them try the two propositions be.
fore the House by the principle thus laid down, and they must
come to the conclusion that a reduction in the price of sugar
must be the result of one proposition in a far greater degree
than of the other. That being conceded, he thought there
ought to be no difference with respect to the choice they ought

to come to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER met the ar-
gument quoted from Mr. Ilk,slcisson in the same manner as he
had met the argument of the lion. Member for Taunton, by
contending that an increased demand on sugar, consequent on
a reduction of price, would immediately throw a great advan-
tage into the hands of those who alone had the means of at
present supplying the market. This would raise the price to
the consumers, and he contended that it was absolutely neces•
sary, before making a large reduction in the sugar duties.
they should give such notice to those countries preducing free-
labour sugar as to enable them to furnish a larger supply of that
necessary article. It ha 4 been stated that the course Laken by

the Governmerit on the present occasion was quite unprece-
dented, because they called for the revision cf a vote to which
the [louse had previously come. They were told that to sub-
mit to the House a
,quessico which had been previously
negatived or affirmed, was a degrading to it.—( Hear. )
In that case, of what use were the fofros of the
House which enabled them repeatedly to bring the same ques-
tions under consideration ? It was admitted that this was done
in a very signal manner on the subject of the malt-tax, when
the House was called on to rescind its vote not as now during

the progress of the Bill. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbbry
had indulged in a speech affirming that the Right Hon. Baro-
net had not the confidence of all who supported him. He had
seldom heard a speech so derogatory to the character of the
House—( Hear, hear )--and the lion. Gentleman should, at
all events, be the last to complain, far, from the tenor of his
speech it was evident that he had for a long time harboured
in his mind the sentiments which he displayed.—Hear, hear. )
He should be the last person to complain that the Government
abused the confidence reposed in them. The question under
consideration was, whether they should take off 4s. from the
24s duty. With regard to that proposition, they thought it
would injure the revenue without benefiting the consumer.
The estimate of loss to the revenue was pretty much the same
as when Mr. Hu•kisson brought the subject under con-
sideration. They had been asked what consideration a loss
of 500,' Oa was when they had such a large surplus ? Why,
the way to contract debts and to have a deficient revenue, was
to proceed in such a course. It was on this ground that he
should continue to resist the motion of the Hon. Member for
Bristol. _ _

Mr. P. MAXWELL STEWART said that none
of the grounds alleged by the Government in support
of their proposition were well founded, its his opinion.
He did not agree with the Right Honourable Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the es:imates which
he made of the sugar which would come in under this pro-
position. He denied the statement of the Right Honourable
Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade with respect
to Java. He had it, on the authority of a Java planter, that
sugar was produced there under a forced system, which might
be considered a description of mitigated slavery. under which the
produce of sugar bad increased twenty-five times in the course
of ten years. But he did not mean to say that ought to exclude
them under this Bill. The Government had, by their propo-
sition, proAuced the greatest stagnation in the West India
trade. They had now the lowest average price for six years.
The price that day was 345. ld.„ arid the stock in hand was
8,010 tons more than the stock in hand in the corresponding
period of last year. It was impossible that the adoption of the
motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol could increase the suf-
fering which had prevailed in consequence of the conduct pur-
-ued by the Government Persons did not know what to do,
because they were doubtful of what would be the result of their
deliberations in that House. Was that a fitting way to treat
a great colonial interest? But the. e was more than this
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of
Trade, told them that they were in a state of transition. He
had been an advocate for an alteration of the duties, but the
Government had by their conduct treated the colonial interest
with insult, not meant perhaps, but certainly real. The ar-
gument of the Right Hon. Baronet was unworthy of him. He
put forward the alterations of the tariff, but the Right Hon
Gentleman had not allowed time to see what the effect of
the tariff was, for he had himself altered it in essential points.
He denied that the proposition of the Hon. Member for
Bristol would risk the revenue, and that it would beuett
the consumer he thought there could be little doubt. His
Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester and other free
traders were standing on this occasion between the con
stoners and the colonists.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend
said he was going to vote fur the Hon. Member for Bristol,
but he was enlightened by going to the other side of Temple-
bar—(A laugh)—and voted with the Government. His Hon.
Friend had given an explanation of his conduct, and said
that he thought this was a trap. He (Mr. Stewart) was
of opinion that his lion. Friend did not mend matters by
his explanation, and he would have been more discreet if
he followed the " trappists"—(A laugh)—and remained silent.
He was sure they ought, looking to the interests of the
consumer and the colorest, to uphold the vote to which they
had conic on Friday evening.
Several Members here rose to aderees the House, among
whom was Mr. Entwisle, for whom loud cries were made from
all parts of the House.
Mr. ENT WISLE said it was with the greatest pain that
he !ound himself compelled, at such an early period of his in-
troduction to that House, to oppose the measure brought for-
ward by her Majesty's Government, as a supporter of whom
he had been sent to represent his constituents ; but it had been
in defence of a principle to which he had taken frequent occa-
sion to announce his adherence, namely, that of affording a
fair protection to the produce of the labour of all British
subjects.—(Hear, bear.) It was en that principle that the
contest was fought in which he was lately engaged, and he
should not desert that principle now.—( Hear, hear.) They
had an admission of the Government that their measure was
hardly equivalent to the necessities of the case. It seemed
to be agreed on all hands that there was a strong necessity
for immigration of labour into the colonies, and that without
such immigration it was impossible fur the West Indian proprie-
tors to cope with the foreign grower of sugar. In the state of
transition which had been so frequently alluded to, it appeared
to him that the protection proposed by the Government must
be insufficient before an immigration of labour had taken place,
and it was en that ground he conceived that the measure of the
Hon. Member for Bristol was proposed, for giving increased
protection. Whateveranight be the effect upon the revenue,
it was brought on by the proposal of the Government them,.
selves. However, having recorded his vote in favour of the
Hon. Member's proposition on a previous occasion, he would
not further mix himself up with that party opposite, to whose
views he was opposed. He would decline on that occasion to
register his vote in connection with theirs.
Mr. B. EsCOTT said he could not understand how this
proposition could be supported both on the ground of increas-
ing the supply of the people of this Gauntry and increasing the
protection of the West India proprietors. He agreed with
much that had been said on the other side, and amongst
other things in which he agreed, was the evil of holding one
opinion one day and the opposite on another.—(Hear, hear. )
He had heard an Hon. Member opposite (Mr. P. M. Stewart)
in one part of his speech argue for increased protection, and
in another part for an increased supply ; but he could not at
all understand such an argument, nor could he understand how
his Hon. Friend the Member for Somersetshire (Mr. W.
Miles), or any other Hen. Member in that House, could sup-
port the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol on such
grounds. Allusion had been made to the possibility of the re-
signation of Ministers, but he believed the Right Honourable
Baronet, the Secretary of State, would strengthen his position
in the country if he were to adopt that course.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that the people of England were not attached to
these antiquated monopolies which some in that House were
inclined to support.—(Opposition cheers.) Although, on the
other hand, they were not disposed immediately to abolish all
protection to British interests, they wished to go on gradually
with the work of amendment, because that was the only way
of proceeding safely. He protested against the course pursued
by the Hon. Member for Bristol, and supported by so many on
that side of the House.--4 Hear, hear.) He challenged the
Hon. Member for East Somersetshire (Mr. W. Miles) to prove
how the adoption of his Hon. Relative's motion could help the
West Indians out of their difficulties.—( Hear, hear.) In con-
clusion, he begged to say that be could not give his support to
the proposition before the House.
Lord Howlett, Mr. Miles, and several other Members
here rose to address the House, amidst loud cries of " Divide,
divide," all of whom gave way to
Mr. W. MILES, who said that although he himself was not
interested in the West India Colonies, yet, as his nearest and
dearest connections were, he could not give his vote on that oc-
casion without making one or two observations. When his
Hon. Friend the Member for Winchester had so far forgotten
his position in the county of Somerset, that when scarcely two
or three years had passed, he could gulp down all the senti-
ments for which he contended at two contested elections for
the western division of that county, then, indeed, it was not
fur him to talk about principle.—(Cheers.) They should not
measure their corn by the Winchester bushel.—(Cheers and
laughter.) He had been perfectly astonished at the doc-
trine which the Honourable Gentleman had laid down
whilst taunting with inconsistency many of those by whom
he was surrounded. The language which he had used ap-
peared to him to be most extraordinary. He had asked him
how the West Indian and the consumer could both be benefited
at the same time ? Now what was the Government propo-
sition? To reduce the duty on foreign sugar from 635. to 245. ;
but they did not reduce by one farthing the duty now paid
upon West Indian sugar. If his Hon. Friend had only listened
to what had fallen from his relative when making his proposi-
tion, he would have understood the position which they
assumed. After the noble sacrifice of twenty millions,
the West _lndia proprietors". did not expect that they

would be able to maintain the discriminating deity of

635. They had always looked fur a reduction of the duty on
foreign sugar, but at the same time they expected some
benefit fur themselves.—(l-.ear, hear.) Without going at all
into the question, hue the reduction in price was to be dis-
tributed, no doubt existed in his mind that both the planter and

the consumer would be benefited by the propoced reduction of
4s. The condition of the West India planter was p-ecisely the
same as that of the English agrieultux ist. These were his reasons
for supporting the proposition of his [lon. Relative. He was
sorry that the question had been taken up as it had been by the
Government et the country.—( Hear.) lie thought that when

it had been intimated that the sugar duties were: next year to
be put upon a different basis, they would have come forward
and stated what their proposition was, in order that the
House might either assent to, or dissent from their proposal.
But, instead of this, they had determined, notwithstanding an
adverse decision, to force upon the House their own proposition.
Ho could assure the Government that those high Conservative

principles which they advocated were his own ; but, a' the same
time, he must have the power of freely and independently ex-
excising his vote ; and he conceived that he raised his party
higher by exercising that power when, in questions of detail,
he differed from the Government, than by obsequiously follow-
ing every movement of the Government.—( Heat „hear.) He
trusted that the majority which had supported his Hon. Rela-
tion the other night would not forget the duty they owed to
themselves, to the country. and to those who had sent them
there; but that whatever might be the effect, they would again
record their opinions in favour of the West Indian agricul-
turists.—(Cheers )
Mr. B. ESCO IT said he had been so severely attacked,
that he trusted the Ilou,e would allow him to say one word.
He called upon his Hon. Friend, in justice to him and to his
. .

own character, after charging him (%Ir. Escott) with renounc-
ing his former opinions and contradicting his former principles,

to point out one single instance in which he had avowed prin-
ciples or opinions inconsistent with those which ho had avowed
that evening.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. W. MILES said, of course, he could only speak on the
authority of the newspapers. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Escott)
however, had oppo-ed his Hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Sand.
ford) as a complete protectionist.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. B. ESCOTT—No, no.—( Laughter. )
Lord HO WICK said he certainly did think that the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last had very sufficiently answered the
charge made against him. He had, however, heard with great
satisfaction the statement of the Hon. Member (Mr. B. Es-
colt) that the people of England were not in favour of anti-
quated monopolies; and he trusted that when they came to
discuss the corn-laws they would have before them in his speech
and vote the undoubted proof of his sincerity.—(Laughter. )
But his object in rising was to say that it really did appear to
him most extraonlinary that the House should be
called upon to rescind its former vote upon the
grounds which had been stated that evening.—( Hear, hear. )
He thought that those gentlemen who laati heard the statement
of the Right Hon. Baronet and the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bristol must be satisfied that the argunaeats of the
Right Hon Baronet were not such cc could warrant the House

in retracing the step which they had taken.—( Cheers.) He
thought that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol
was a just and fair one.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
everything which could be done to assist the %Vest India inte-
rest in their difficulties ought to be done. What he understood
from the measure of the Government was, that the West Indies
should have a protection of Ws. against the produce of free
labour. The Member for Bristol had not objected to re-
duce the duty upon foreign sugar, but he wished at the same
time that colonial produce should also be favoured by a reduc-
tion of duty, which would have the effect of cheapening the
article, enlarging the market, and benefiting at once the West
India interest and the consumer. He thought that was a
most just preposition.—( Cheers.) His Right lion. Friend near
him had made a proposition which would remove any difficulty
which might exit in coming to such an arrangement. Ile
was confirmed in that opinion by what had fallen from
the President of the Board of Trade, on the subject of the dif-
ferent duties to be imposed upon different qualities of sugar.—
( Hear, hear.) There had been but one objection argued by
the Right Hon. Baronet, which seemed to him to have con-
siderable force—that was, that the effect of the proposition
.of
the Hon. Member for Bristol would be to throw an undue

advantage into the hands of those traders who had stock, and of
the retailers, who would gain at the experue of the public.
However, that objection might be met by bringing the altera-
tion into effect at an earlier period, say the sth of July.--
(Cheers.) As to the distinction between slave-grown sugar
and the produce of free labour, it was only the Government
that set any value on that argument.--( Hear, hear.) But then
the Right Hon. Baronet said that they were bound by the
treaty to place Brazil upon the same footing with the most fa-
voured nation. Why then should the Brazilians not be placed
upon the same footing as the most favoured nation, and give
them what advantage they might obtain in three or four months,
until the treaty could be settled? That could not encourage
slavery in Brazil. He hoped the House was not going to re-
scind the decision to which it had come. He had
heard with astonishment the statement of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that the object of Bills
being read several times was to give the House an op-
portunity of reconsidering its opinions, and of preventing
surprise. It was true the object of the forms was to prevent
surprise, but it certainly was not to institute or keep up a cus-
tom of rescinding deliberate votes, at the will of the Ministry.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the House three or four

times, that if they did not their ;Cites, he should regard
it as a withdrawal of confidence.—(Cheers.) This had oc-
curred on the Factories Bill, the Welsh Bishoprics, and on a
financial measure. He thought if such obsequiousness to the
Government was expected from the House, it would save much
trouble if, at the beginning of the session, the House should
pass a vote of unlimited confidence in the Ministry.—( Cheers,
and laughter.) But it was not in the power of the Right
Hon. Baronet to resign upon this question. It was impossible
for them to go to the country upon a question of a differential
duty of 4s. per cwt. But the Right Hon. Baronet had in-
formed the House that there was something behind, that there
were other asd less ostensible differences between him and his
ordinary supporters.—(Cheers.) He ( Lord Howick) believed
that this was the ease. He believed that the Government was
supported by gentlemen who did not agree with the Govern-
ment on the important question of trade and finance.—
( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) That was a • state of
things not creditable to the Government, or to the
House. Two or three times Ministers were on the point of
resigning office, and w. re only enabled to retain their places by
compelling their supporters to rescind their votes. The circum-
stance tom which that had arisen, had been stated by his Noble
Friend (Lord J. Russell). When the Right Hon. Baronet
was out of office, an impressioh prevailed in the House and in
the country, that he entertained opinions on trade and finance
very different from those upon which he had acted since 14
came into power.—(Cheers.) The Government was now
under the pressure of enlightened opinion out of doors, with
which the convictions of their own minds agreed, and they held
the opinions of free trade as much as be did. There was a
feeling of disappointment on the minds of those who supported
the Government, and Hon. Gentleman and Noble Dukes were
heard to declare that they were not satisfied with Ministers,
but were more dissatisfied with those who might take their
places.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Government had
not the support of those who advocated protection for do-
mestic interests, and on the other hand those who were opposed
to mischievous impositions, such as the present corn-laws
were, could place no confidence in them. The consequence
was, that doubt and uncertainty to a most pernicious extent
agitated every interest in the Country, agricultural, ma-
nufacturing, and commercial. The only way to put an end
to such a state of things was by the Government adopting de-
cigedly and boldly, either the principle of free trade or express-
ing a bona fide determination to uphold things as they were.—
( Great cheering.) 'they claimed to have a majority of the
House and the country, and if they honestly held that opinion
there wss nothing to prevent their adopting one decided
course. If the contest was to end in removing restrictions the
sooner, surely, it was put an end to the better. He did not,
from all he seen, anticipate at present any change in
the manner in winch the affairs of the country would be con-
ducted. There was a rottenness in the present state of things,
and the moment the country was subject to tempests such a
state of things must be done assay with. Was it not better
then :to endeavour to do away with them when the country
was in a state of peace? He was persuaded that the continu-
ance of this sort of anarchy—fur he could call it nothing else—
would be attended with the worst results to the best interests
of the country.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord Stanley, Lord Clive, and Mr. Borthwick, rose together,
amid loud cries of "Divide, divide." Lord Stanley caught the
Chairman's eye, but gave way to
Lord CLI VE, who stated it to he his intention to vote that
evening in the same way he did on Friday night.—( Heir.)
Lord STANLEY then addressed the House. The Noble

Lord on the other side of the House had appealed to the pride
and sense of honour in the House whether it would re-
scind a vote it had formerly given. The Noble Lord had
done injustice to his Right Hun. Friend in supposing that in
his observations he had held out any threat. What he had
stated was, that standing in the situation of the Government,
it was their bounden duty to state to the House the position in
which they felt themselves placed by the vote of the House,
though not exclusively on Friday. He stated that they thought
it was due to the position of the Government to consider
the situation in which they stood,- not on this
question alone, but other measures that had been brought for-
ward in the present session ; and his Right Hon. Friend at the
same time stated that if they did net possess the confidence and
support of the House, it was idle for them to attempt to carry
on the affairs of the country. The Noble Lord had drawn a
picture of this country, which, if true, was a conclusive argu-
ment for their declaring that if they had not the confidence of
either party, it was incompetent for them to carry on the busi-
ness of the country. The Noble Lord had also said that the
present Government had created a very different notion as to
the views they entertained on commercial subjects when out of
office to, what they had done whilst in. Now, where, he would
ask, had they created that sentiment? Certainly not in the mind
of the Noble Lord opposite, for he bad said it had not come
upon him unexpectedly. The Noble Lord had said, you admit
the principles of free trade, why not carry them out? Why, had
they not been taunted by the other side with only being free
traders in the abstract?_( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had then
said that it was admitted by all that we ougkt to buy in the
cheapest and sell in the dearest market. He admitted that
doctrine in the abstract, but in the application of it they would
not injure those great interests that had risen up in this country
and the colonies. The Noble Lord then stated
that the Government were supported by a body of men
who only supported them because they disliked their
opponent's views. That was the condition of every Govern-
; went ; but he believed that the Noble Lord was entirely mis-
taken in taking the view he had dune of the great Conserva-
tive party in this country. He believed that the whole of that
body were perfectly satisfied with the cautious course pursued
by his Right Hon. Friend, and that the agriculturists were not
likely to be deluded by the friendship of the Noble Lord to
ruin themselves by advocating the principles of free trade. The
Noble Lord had. stated it was time the present state of
things should be done away with, and which might be
done in two ways ; but he (Lord Stanley) did not be-
lieve that either of the ways pointed out by the No-
ble Lord would attain the ends he had in view. What-
ever might be the fate of the Government, so long as they
were supported by a majority of that House, they would con-
tinue to maintain that steady, cautious course—( Laughter and
ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—they
would advocate temperate and well-considered measure of im-
provement which would be best calculated for the rational pro-
tection of the main and leading interests of the country, and
for the development of our national resources. But if the
Noble Lord could not succeed by an appeal to the passions and
pride of Hon. Members on that side of the House, if he could
not foment any dissensions, or produce any divisions in the
Conservative ranks—if the agricultural Members would not
be attracted, he thought he could succeed in placing the advo-
cates of the West Indian interests tinder his guidance and pro-
tection.—(Hear, hear.) The Government, he candidly ad-
mitted, called upon the House to reconsider its vote of Friday
night, and the plan proposed by the Government. He ad-
mitted that the measure of the Government had been con-
demned by a majority of ten.—(No, twenty.) Yes, twenty.--
(Laughter. ) He would not go into any question of previous
consent or combination between the Noble Lord and Hon.
Members on that side of the House.
Lo.d JOHN RUSSELL—There was no combination.
Lord STANLEY—Uhat no concert between the Noble
Lord and
Lord: JOHN RUSSELL (advancing to the table with
marked emphasis)—the Noble Lord is entirely mistaken.
Lord STANLEY would not, as he had already said, enter
into the question of any previous concert; but he asked the
House to deliberate and compare the project of the Govern-
ment with that of the Honourable Member for Bristol. I
admit that the West India littered are entitled to protection in