The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-11 00:00:00

this proposition to the utmost of his power.—(Hear,
hear.) He believed it to be impolitic—to be, at this
juncture, particularly inexpedient, when the commerce
and trade of the country were so long languishing ; he
believed the moment for proposing it was ill chosen—the
measure was admitted to be dangerous. He was satis-
fied, if the hours of labour were limited, it would be most
injurious to the working classes ; and, entertaining that
opinion, he never could vote for such a proposition.
Lord ASHLEY rose to explain. He never, under any
circumstances, would have accepted office, had he known
the intentions of the Government on this subject ; but
no answer was given him respecting their intentions, so
that he did not know whether the Government would
accept or reject his proposition for a reduction of the
hours of labour to tea hours.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord HOWICK said he would accept the challenge
thrown out by the Right Honourable Gentleman,
and state distinctly what his views were on the
important point of the reduction of wages.—(Hear,
hear.) But, before doing so, he begged to state
that he heard with regret what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet respecting the course which would
be pursued. by the Government in the event of being de-
feated on this subject. He alluded to the impression
which had gone abroad, that a threat of resignation on
the part of the Ministers was held out in case they were
defeated ; and the Right Hon. Baronet told them, in the
most distinct language, that he would not, as a Minister
of the Crown, consent to this measure coming into ope-
ration. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in the
general proposition, that no tyranny could be greater than
to expect that a Minister would remain in office when
the House compelled him to consent to that which he
believed would be fatal to the country. He believed that
was proper upon great questions of general policy and
general principle, but to apply it to cases like the pre-
sent, one confessedly of detail, was to put an end to all
deliberation.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was a dan •
gerous invasion of the deliberative power of the House.
—(Hear, hear.) Lsaving this point, which incidentally
arose, he came to the main question before them. In the
first place, it was clear it was desirable to restrict the
hours of labour, unless some convincing reasons
to the contrary were shown. They had the
opinions of the factory inspectors themselves on
this point, and, indeed, they had their own common
sense to guide them.—(lronical cheers from Mr. Roe-
buck.) Her Majesty's Government already restricted
the hours of labour to twelve hours for females, which
was, ,practically saying, that they must work ten hours ;
and was it true that great danger or inconvenience would
arise if they carried the restriction still further? The
question was, would they, by determining for how many
hours a day labour should be prolonged, incur great
hazard, and those evils which they were told would
follow from restricting the hours of labour?—(Here the
Noble Lord turned round to the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Bath, who was speaking in a rather loud tone of
voice to an Hon. Member behind him, which two or
three times caused a cry of " Order" in the House, and
said), " I beg pardon of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Bath. He is interrupting, and no man is more into-
lerant of interruption than the Hon and Learned Gen-
tleman himself."—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—I will talk when I like, and I will
not ask the Noble Lord's leave.—(Oh, oh.) No right to
talk !

Lord HOWICK—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
says he has a right to talk when he likes. I know the
Hon. and Learned Member has very strange notions of
what his peculiar rights and privileges are, but I always
thought it was the privilege of any Hon. Gentleman who
was addressing the House that he should not be inter-
rupted.
Mr. ROEBUCK rose, amidst cries of "Order, order,"
and said, I rise to order. If I have in the slightest de-
gree internpifed`the Noble Lord, I had not the slightest
intention of doing so; and, if I have done so, I am sin-
cerely desirous of aplogising for it.—(Hear.)
Lord HOWICK said that he accepted the apology of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman as most satisfactory,
and nothing but the claim put forward by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman that he had a right to talk, in-
duced him (Lord Howick) to . say what he did. He
would now return to the main question. The principal
point was, as to the effect of his Noble Friend's amend-
ment on the foreign, trade of the country. He would
admit, for the sake of argument, though he disbelieved
the fact, that a reduction of the hours of labour would
create a proportionate diminution in the amount of
goods produced. But he did not conceive if possible
that women, and children, and young persons, after
being exhausted by working ten hours a day, could
produce the same amount of work in the two following
hours which they would produce during they same time
when they came fresh to their work. Then as to the ef-
fect which a reduction of the hours of labour would
have on wages ; if it only affected those who were en-
gaged in producing goods for the home market, the
wages and profits of manufacturing interests would not
be so affected as to fall lower than in other occupations ;
that was to say, that the produce of 100 labourers,
working, suppose with a capital of 1,000/., could still
exchange for the same amount of produce as before—
that was to say goods would somewhat rise in the
market it the home market alone was concerned. But
they were told that itsteffects would be most serious
upon the goods which were produced for the foreign mar-
ket. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated facts to confirm
that view ; he showed how close competition was, and that
if the measure of his Noble Frienid. (Lord Ashley) was
adopted, it would be impossible to raise the price. This
argument seemed to him (Lord Howick) to be founded
on a misconception of the nature of the foreign trade.
When a cargo of goods was sent to a foreign country it
by no means followed that the profits depended on the
price which the goods realised. Any practical mer-
chant might tell them at once, if they sent a cargo of
cotton goods to Rio, it was not merely the price for
which the goods were sold which determined whether it
was to be a profitable or losing speculation. The specu-
lation might be a profitable or losing one, according to
what was the expense of remitting the consignment. If
the premium on the rate of exchange was small, the spe-
culation was a losing one, but if the premium re-
ceived was large for the same amount of goods
sold, the speculation might be profitable.—(Hear.)
That arose from a fact which, in all their discussions
upon that subject, they had to a great extent over-
looked, that the whole of our export trade was, in point
of fact, only a barter of one description of goods for an-
other. The whole of our export trade with foreign
countries depended upon this circumstance, that we had
in this country a demand for a great number of articles
of foreign produce, which we either could not produce
at all, or at least not so cheaply as they were produced
abroad, and our manufacturers were employed in pro-
ducing those. goods, the sale of which the experience of
our merchants had decided would be the most effectual
mode of paying for those foreign productions. If that
was the real nature of our trade, and he thought no
man could deny it—if what put in motion those vast
hives of industry in Lancashire' and Yorkshire
was to pay for the coffee, wine, sugar, tobacco, and the
multitude of other foreign goods which we consumed in
this country—if that was really the nature of our
foreign trade, he wanted to ask how it was possible
that, even admitting that the amendment of his Noble
Friend, if carried, would increase the co&t of producing
these articles—how could it possibly have any effect in
preventing our foreign trade ? Would the foreign de-
mand decrease? Would the desire to obtain coffee,
sugar, wine, and those articles which were the main-
-spring of the whole machinery of commerce—would
that desire fail? Certainly not. If those goods were
still important, our merchants would, as before endea-
vour to, find the means of paying for the importations
they made; and the goods we now sent out would be as
available for., that purpose as they were now, and the
only effect which in his opinion they would
have reason to dread from foreign competition
was, that it might make them give a larger
amount of the produce of their own labour for
the different kinds of goods they imported.—(lleac,
hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He was glad the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman attended to his argument. They
would have to give a somewhat larger amount of the
produce of their own labour and capital in order to
obtain the same amount as before of those various
articles of foreign produce.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
deny that a certain degree of inconvenience would arise
from the diminution of their productive power. But
what he would show them was that the burden of the
inconvenience would not fall peculiarly upon the opera-
tives engaged in !hese factories or upon the manufac-
turers, but that it would fall upon the community at
large. They would purchase a less amount than before
of tea, coffee, and other foreign goods, because the
foreigner being able to resort to other markets for those
goods which we exported, and because more of our
labour was required to produce the same amount of
goods as formerly—the foreigner would refuse to grant
an increase in the amount of goods which he gave us in
return. It was true that to that extent there would be
inconvenience—that the whole amount of the foreign
goods imported into this country, in return for the whole
amount of our manufactures exported, would be to a
certain extent diminished. But that burden would, as
he said before, fall on the whole community in the shape
of a somewhat increased price of the foreign commodity.
But that would not in any degree endanger the safety of
the foreign trade, nor cause such au extraordinary re.•
duction of wages, as it had been contended it would.
The danger was considerably less than the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite would lead them to expect. He (Lord
Howick) maintained that, instead of that exaggerated
apprehension, either of the destruction of our export
trade, or the ruin of our manufactures, all they would
have to apprehend was a certain comparatively small di-
minution in the return they got from foreign countries for
their manufacturing labour. He was aware that that was a
different view of the nature of foreign competition from
that which was generally taken.—(" Hear, hear," from
Mr. Roebuck.) But he was not the less persuaded that
it was a just one—he was not the less persuaded that
trade was essentially merely a barter of one set of goods
for another. In the history of commerce they would
perceive that to be the case. When enterprising mari-
ners in the early ages brought manufactures•to the bar-
barous natives of this country, it was, as everybody saw,
but a simple exchange of one description of goods for
another, and that was equally the case in modern com-
merce. Though we measure the price in bills of ex-
change and in money, yet it was the amount of goods we
received in this country, and nothing else, which limited
our foreign trade. One proof that his view was correct
was the very fact which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite
had stated of the close competition which foreign countries
were able to maintain against us, in spite of great disad-
vantages with which they had to, contend. The Right
Hon. Baronet had pointed out Switzerland as able to
maintain close competition with us, though we knew
that that country could only obtain the raw material by
a long land carriage, or, by what was not less expensive,
internal navigation ; and that our manufactured goods
come back in the same way. The Right Honourable
Baronet said that Switzerland had the advantage of a
great water power ; but they well knew that that was
so little of an advantage compared with a good situation,
that the immense water-power of the highlands of Scot-
land was, never brought into .operation. Her situation,