The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-01 00:00:00

aI4rI)..OY47„P,RID,AY MORN'ING,_MARC_EI 1, 1844.

. .
believethat they would be palatable to the partiLlkori,'
cerned.--In thu-Bill of -last year, provisions had been. in-.
troduced for thegeneral regulation of drainage. He bad
omitted those regulations in the present Bill, because
the great question of the drainage of the metropolis and
of other large towns, and also of affording an adequate
supply of water to populous places generally, was now un-
der the consideration of the Commissioners,who had been
appointed to•consider the means to be adopted for pro-
moting the health of populous places, and he hoped to
be enabled to introduce a general measure for the regu-
lation of drainage, founded on, the Report of those
Commissioners. The only regulation he had intro-
duced into the measure on the subject of drainage
was, that for the future no house should be erected

without a proper provision being mit& to se-
cure adequate and proper drainage. The mortality
produced among the poorer classes by the want of pro-,
per drainage, and by the over-crowding of their habita-
tions, was exceedingly great, and he proposed to pro-
hibit the use of cellars as habitations, except under cer-
tain circumstances. He also _proposed to introduce a
clause prohibiting the carrying on of dangerous trades
which might occasion fire, or • trades
_noxious to
health,,in crowded localities. He proposed to have dis-
trict surveyors appointed by the magistrates. Sneh sur-
veyors not to be under thirty years of age, and not
to be magistrates ; and he also proposed that
the'appointment of surveyors should be confirmed by
the Secretary of State, so as to secure the services of a
superior class of officers. Although he objected to
making new officers, yet he felt that it was absolutely
necessary,. to prevent expensive litigation, that official
referees should be appointed, to determine disputes, and
he, therefore, proposed to appoint them by this measure.
There was a provision foroxtending the operation of the
Act round the metropolis, but not further than twelve
miles from Charing-cross. There was also another pro-
vision, new to this Bill, and which was not in the Bill of
last year ; it was one for vesting the power of
deciding on the report of the official, referee in the
Commissioners of Woods andForeks, in cases where

any exceptions were taken to his reports. He earnestly
hoped, that though the Bill was of a technical nature,
and therefore not of a nature to command the attention of
the House, that it would receive its best consideration.
On the question being put,
Mr.DUNCOMBE said he didnot wish to oppose the Bill,.
but he wished to call the attention of the Noble Lord to
a petition he had presented from a portion of his consti-
tuents, complaining of the dilatoriness of the Woods and
Forests in rebuilding houses, in some cases whole
streets, which they had pulled down for the purpose of
improvement. In St. George's, Bloomsbury, a street,

called Plumptre-street, had been pulled down, and had
so remained for twelve months. Application had been
made to the Woods and Forests to know when the
houses were to be rebuilt, but no answer could be ob-
tained. The tradesmen in the immediate vicinity corn-

plained, and not unnaturally, of their trade being- much
injured by the loss of customers. The, assessment to
the poor raterwhich in that district was made on a
valuation of 35,0004 was, in consequence of the destruc-

tion of the street, reduced to an assessment on a
valuation of 14,0001, and the rates were thus very
mach increased upon those which remained. They had
only to empk.y more workmen and the difficulties would
be got over. He thought the public convenience ought
to be considered, and where.buildings were pulled down
they ought to be erected again as soon as possible. He
he had presented. a petition on this subject, and he •
thought he was in duty bound to make the observations
he had done. ,
The Earl of LINCOLN was quite aware, of the in-1
convenience complained of by the Hon. Member, but!
he could assure him it was nob the fault of the Woods;
and Forests. In many parts the purchase of the.landl
had not been completed till a short time since, and it
was, therefore, impossible to take any steps. He had
no doubt, however,- that ultimately the constktneos-pf,
the Hon. Member for Finsbury would be benefited ; feri
the rating-on-the houses, instead ,of bei, as it was at
present, 35,0001., would amount to 46,000—(Hear.)

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
SHIPWRECKS—HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
Mr. RICE then rose, pursuant to notice, "To cal]
he attention of the House to the Report of the Cora.
wittee on Shipwrecks, with reference to Harbours 01
Refuge, and to move an humble address to her Majesty
praying that a Committee of scientific and competen
persons might be appointed to consider and advist
the best means of carrying into effect the recom,
mendation ,of that _ Committee." It was his in

tention to confine himself to that part of the Re=
port which had reference to the harbours of refuge.
In doing so, he would not trouble the House by alluding
to that part of the report or evidence, which referred to
a great number of places which were submitted to the
Committee, for the construction of harbours in different
parts of the world, nor would he refer to that paiit
of it which alluded to particular localities for their
construction, though he might have his predi-
lections in favour of the place he had the honour Of
representing. But he was warranted by the report ill
stating it as his conviction, that the formation of one Or
more harbours of refuge in narrow seas was, not only a
measure of national utility, but of urgent nece4-
sity. He would read shortly from the report thilt
part of the evidence to which he referre .
It says that witnesses of the highest authority we e
I called, and gave evidence in proof of the want of ha -
bours of refuge accessible at all times, no matter wh t
the state of the tide was, and of the necessity of erec -
ing them in places where they did not exist at, pr -
I
sent. With .regard to the places for their constru -
tion, the Committee recommended that this part of t e
subject should be left to the consideration of compete t
and scientific men, whose attention should be exclusive y
directed to the subject. He had adopted, in s
motion, as - nearly as possible, the words used n
the Report. The Report went on to say, th t
as large an .appropriation of the public funds its
could be made should be applied to the con-
struction of harbours of refuge in such places. IA
great number of professional persons of the highefst
authority on the subject, had been produced before tie
Committee. Mr. Cubitt, the engineer, had been examin,
and several civilians who were interested in the subje4.
lie would now only refer to the evidence of two or thriee
persons who, from their high situations and professio al
experience, were eminently worthy the attention of e
House and the country. The first of these gent e-
men, was Captain Washington, who was "emplo d
by the Admiralty to survey. the Eastern coast.
He stated that he had turned his attention s'to
the subject of harbours of refuge, and that there vas
a great want of them on the eastern coast. Between
the Thames •aid Portsmouth there was also a similar
want, and, looking at our contiguity to France, he con-
sidered thig not the least important part of our co st.
I
Ho would next turn to the evidence of Capt in
t
Buller, who was directed by the Admiralty Ito
follow in the steps of the Commission of 1840,
and who gave it strongly as his opinion, that a
great security would be given to the commerce of the
country and the integrity of the coast, by the formation
of a harbour of refuge between Portsmouth and the
Nore. - Another witness was Mr. Cubitt, who was one of
the-Commission of 1840, and who was first examined with
respect to Dover, and who stated that the strong opinion
of that Commission had been given as to the necessity
of a harbour of refuge between Portsmouth and the
Nore. The Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports (the
.Duke of Wellington) was the last witness whose evi-
dence he would then refer to. The chief part
of his ' Grace's evidence was in reference to
the pilots and pilot system. His Grace, however,
took an opportunity of distinctly expressing his opinion
that it was absolutely necessary to form a harbour be-
tween Portsmouth and the Thames. ' He further stated
that, in, case of a war, he should consider the want of
protection and of refuge, which now existed, would
leave the trade of that part of the coast, and indeed
the coast itself, in a very precarious situation.
He would not trouble the HOuse with any further evi-
dence on this subject. He did not care so long as har-
bours were established, whether the Government made
them harbours•of.refuge or harbours of defence. A good
harbour of. defence was a good harbour of refuge, and a
good harbour of refuge was a good harbour of defence. This
was a subject which required the most serious attention
of the Government. It was the duty of her Majesty's
Government to provide the means of security, not only
for our commerce, but also security for our coasts. He
recollected perfectly well that at the time Napoleon
meditated leis descent upon England, , the coast
was in a .very. defenceless, state.. He was-quite
sure that, -if at that time steam-vessels had been
in use, Napoleon would have been enabled easily to
have landed 15,004-or 20,000 men on the coast.. He did
not mean to say that such a landing would have been at-
tended with much success to Napoleon ; but it would
have have had this effect—it would have destroyed that
confidence which was, now felt in our insulai position.
In considering this subject, the Legislature ought to
take into account the great alteration which had been
made of late years with respect to steam navigation, and
the use that power might be applied to in the event of •
another war. He was present at a large meeting in Devon
some time ago, on the occasion of the opening of the rail-
way, and at which all the most influential persons of
the town were present, all of whom expressed strong
hopes that those harbdurs would be constructed. They
should recollect that the French Government were
acting upon the old proverb, that to be prepared for
war was the best way to secure peace, and were
daily increasing their naval force, and more ,parti-
cularly their steam fleet, andhe thought itwas incumbent
upon the British to make their navy equally effective.
At Boulogne and Calais harbours of refuge had been
constructed by the French Government ; and at Cher-
bourg, when he was.last there, no less than 400 men were
employed •in improving the harbour. He hoped that
there would be no financial objections raised to the con-
struction and improvement of this harbour. A Com-
mission 'had been appointed to examine the esti-
mates for making. this harbour. The Report was
laid before the House by the late Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and it was found that the expense
would be 500,0001. for the first three years; and for the
subsequent, ten years, to keep it in repair and pernia-
nent conditiOn, about 100,0001. would'be required; and
he thought that ' this comparatively small sum
ought - not to stand, in the• way of such a great
national object. He felt convinced there was no
person in that. House—not even his ilinourablo
Friend near him (Mr. Hume) who was so vigilant
in his guardianship of the public purse—who would
have the slightest objection to' the expenditure of the
sum he had just named, when they reflected upon
the great importance the construction of those .har-
bolus of refuge were 'in a' national . point of view,
He felt that this was. a subject which he - was
hardly warranted in pressing so strongly upon the
Government.7---(Hear.) But, as one of the Members for
the port of Dover—(A laugh)—:and, also as a Member
of the' Committee which had sat to inquire into the sub-
ject, he thOught he might be justified in moving for
an address in the terms of which he had given notice;
Sir JOHN RAE REID said thflt as ti-1.111.04. t
nt• tl
• • ,
ElOowir.s, bop
.fslt a gl:eqt intMlst in ihiS cm Lion.
.§094:r44 )44 MTh CO4eqlle that the i)tl4 4 tigig

gad be made one of the finest harbours in the world.—
(Lalighter.)__He_clicl_nouns ao on account of his con-
nexion with the.town, but only as a merchant and ship:
owner.---(Laughter.) Ile did, not wish to interfere with

the financial arrangements of the Right Hon. Gentlenian
(Sir R Peel), but he would say, that there would be no
difficulty in raising any amount of money that might be
required at ,a very low nab 'of interest, and nothing could
give him greater * thaii to be intrusted with
raising the nuineys.(GieA laUghter;)' •He was glad
that his Hon. Friend had brought the attention of the
House to so excellent and desirable an object. He se-
conded the motion.

Sir R. PEEL said that the subject was certainly one
of very great importance, and well deserving the consi-
deration which the Committee had given to it. The
Committee was appointed to consider the best Means of
preventing shipwreck, and the, inquiry respecting har-
bours of refuge was a natural and incidental-part of
the subject. He had. not the least doubt, that
if the . Honourable Mover had been the repre-
sentative of any other borough ihan that which the
seconder described as.the very best harbour' of refuge in
the world—(A laugh)—he would have brought forward
this motion, and that he was not at, all influeneed by re-
gard to the interest of the locality.—(llear, and a laugh.)
But it was rather odd that the mover and seconder
should, both be the representative's of the port,
which claimed to be the best site in the world for a

harbour of refuge.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) •
the House were, to listen -to MemberS for towns on the

eastern coast, they would be told that on that coast
were the best situations for such harbours, and
that there •they were, most wanted. The Right lion.
Gentleman then read extracts from the evidence-before

the-Shipwreck Committee to ,the effect—that for two
hundred miles south of the Humber, there were no har-
bours of refuge, although there were several situations
where one could be constructed at an expense of
not more than five hundred thousand pounds.
if they went from the east coast to the west, he thought
he had. quoted the mo.,t ‘ conclusive reasons for
establishing, harbours of refuge on the west: coast,
for the purpose of facilitating the communica-
tion with Ireland. As far. as considerations of public
'policy were concerned, and the promotion of the public
interest, he should select Holyhead as the place for
a harbour, which would bring Dublin within a very
few hours reach-of England.---(Hear, hear.) With re-
spect to the Channel, he was at one time much inclined
to attend to the report, made by the highest authorities,
recommending the construction of three harbours, but
they would cost two millions each. He under-
ed none of the considerations stated, in these
orts and evidence. Bearing in mind the altered rela-
, tionsof different countries, both in their commercial in-

terests and their means of offence and defence, created by
steam, be thought this might be an additional reason for
considering the necessity of establishing harbours of refuge.
There had been certainly strong opinions expressed by
some professional men in favour of Dover, but there were
other very high authorities who were against the selection
of Dover. It had been asserted that during
certain states of the wind, shipping could not
enter the harbour of Dover, and that, therefore, it
was not a proper. place for the construction of a har-
bour of refuge. Her Majesty's Government had been
embarrassed in making up their minds, apart from

the consideration of ex—pen-se, as to what would be the
best port to select for a harbour of refuge. They should
make up their minds to begin with one, and to make that
one as complete as possible. It would be better to make one
harbour complete than to commence three. There were
three points to be considered in the construction of this
harbour. In the first place, it was to be considered with
regard to its advantages as affording a place of refuge
for merchant vessels. Secondly, as a great naval harbour
for purposes of offence and defence during time of
war, and thirdly, they must consider the facilities for
defending the harbour. They must ascertain whether
all these advantages were combined before they decided.
The Government required further evidence on the subject.
They were not at present prepared to submit any plan to
that House. The subject was still under their anxious
consideration, and he considered it ought to be sub-
jected to further consideration. The Government pro-
posed to appoint a Commission, composed of some of the
most eminent naval officers, of some eminent autho-

rities among the commercial marine, of one or
two eminent civil engineers who were • the
best versed in the action of the tides, and In the
effect produced by breakwaters in the deposition of
mud, and of some Ordnance officers. He would not say
one word in favour of Dover, or against it. He should
leave the matter entirely .to the investigation of the
Commissioners.. He trusted he had said enough to show
that the subject was under the anxious consideration of the
Government, but they would not be prepared to submit any
proposition to the House on the subject until the Report
of the Commissioners should have been made and con-
sidered.
Lord R. GROSVENOR wished to know, whether
the Government contemplated entering into arrange-
ments with the Chester and Holyhead Railway Com-
pany, as it seemed to have been determined that Holy-
head was the proper place for the packet station for
communication with Ireland.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he considered Holyhead
to be the fittest port for carrying on communication with
Dublin and Ireland generally. Some reflections had
been cast upon the officers who had originally
reported in favour. of Holyhead. Since then other
gentlemen had been appointed to report, and
among those gentlemen was Mr. Walker, the
President of the Society of Civil Engineers. They had
confirmed the former report. With respect to tke Railway
Company, the Government had had communica-
tions with it, in the course of which the Corn-
piny had come down in their demands from 80,0004
to 40,0001. Only yesterday he bad received a
communication from a new Company, offering to con-
struct a railway without cost. The Government had
not determined on the subject, and therefore lie could not
atpresent make any declaration as to the intentions with
regard to the railway.
Sir C. NAPIER said that the winds did not admit
of Dover being a good harbour. He thought
that Dover being made a harbour was entirely
out of the question, because the winds that would
permit ships to anchor safely in the Downs,
would render their anchoring at Dover impossible.
The Downs was alone the proper place for a har-
bour in his opinion, and he hoped the Govern-
ment would give their preference to it. With
respect to Holyhead, he thought it was admirably
calculated for communication between this country and
Ireland. He 'trusted that this subject would not lead to
the perpetration of a job.
- Sir J. R. REID explained.
Sir T. TROWBRIDGE was satisfied to leave the sub-
ject in the hands of the Government.
Mr. RICE in reply, referred' to the evidence of
Captain Washington; to show that Dover was the best
place to erect a harbour of refuge. He had not
referred to Dover, because he thought he was
best consulting the interests of Dover in leaving it to
rest on its own claims. He was perfectly satisfied with
what had fallen from. the Right Hon. Baronet. He
hoped he would not have to trouble the House any more
on the subject. He hoped the Government would take
the matter up, and he trusted it would not be made a job
of.---(Hear, hear.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
GREAT BRITAIN AND AMERICA via IRELAND.
Sir VALENTINE BLAKE then rose to bring for-
ward the motion of which he had given notice, for a
" Select Committee, to inquire and report how far it
may be practicable, expedient, and useful to promote a
more speedy intercourse between Great Britain and
America, by the establishment of steam carriages (in
connexion with a ship canal also to be executed) across
Ireland, and thence by steam communication across the
Atlantic Ocean." The Hon. Member said, as they had
been discussing the subject of harbours of refuge, he
begged to say that, without exception, the most magnifi-
cent harbour in the world was that of Cork ; and if they
Wished really to consult the interests of the empire they
would best do so by employing the poor in making a
railway across Ireland to that port, and so bringing
America nearer to England than sbe now was.. When
he first gave notice of his intention to bring this subject
before the House he was advised that the course he
proposed was not the proper ono, and he had altered it
accordingly, in the hope to meet support from the
quarter whence the advice came. Before he entered
upon the subject, however, he wished to advert to one
,little Matter which was, that in the recent "monster"
debate about -Ireland the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite (Sir Robert Peel), by the mere abuse of a single
expression had given to him (Sir V. Blake) and.others
pain, which he really believed the Right Hon. Gentle.
man never intended to do. The Right Hon. Baronet
said that those who agitated the question of repeal of
the union were endeavouring to obtain the dismember-
ment of the 'empire. Now, he (Sir V. Blake) believed
in his conscience that the persons advocating the, repeal
of the union did not hope for a dismemberment of the
empire, for all who did so were rebels. He thought
that the establishment of such a line of communication
would be, not only of great importance to Ireland,
but also to the whole United Kingdom, and would prove
to the Irish nation that the Parliament of England was
not wholly unmindful of their interests. A Commission
had been appointed on the 2d of October, 1836, to in-
quire into the port' on the west of Ireland best cal-
culated to form a point of communication with America,
and also the best lines for- railways crossing Ireland
at this Point. The appointment of the Commission had
been subsequently confirmed, but nothing had ever yet
resulted from it. After quoting from several reports
and other docuents, the Hon. Baronet concluded by
calling on the House, in the most earnest manner, to ac-
cede to the* motion, and thus give the first instalment of
justice to Ireland., •
The motion having been seconded,
Sir R. PEEL said he had listened with great attention
to the speech of the Hon Baronet. He thought the
present motion, if acceded to and carried into effect,
`would be more calculated 'to benefit local interests
than the general welfare of the country. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then quoted ,from the Report of the
Railway Commissioners, who were of opinion that the
two most eligible lines of railway were a south-western
and a northern line. Cork was considered as the
most eligible terminus for the south-western line, and
that oity.was also considered as the best part in the
empire for a steam communication between this country
and the United States. If the House granted this Com-
mittee it would stir up it host of local interests. The
Hon, Member for Waterford and the Hon. Member for
Cork would ask tbr the appointment of Committees on
similar grounds. This day a . deputation waited upon
him of, capitalists from Manchester, Leeds, and Liver,
pool, who have it. in contemplation to make a railroad
from Dublin to Cashel, and if they lead served the usual
notices in November, these gentleinen stated they would
be now ready to proem' in the usual form. if Oa@ pre-
sent motion were* acceded to it would prejudice other
lines of comnnictitiO4- He bed every disposition to
give leOrn
timate Oplifor•tnnitie-sifor employing the labourers
o Ireowl; 1444 019 lame time he did not think ,it

11.421

. .1. 4

would be prudent to form any ill considered- or uupro.,
fitable plans in that country. The subject had ,:g aged
the rizioLll—mten-tl‘srro!' the Governrneat, and he trusted
the 1-18W.'llidrOnet. after •this nut presEk,,
his mbtion. - • - . •

Sergeant MURPHY said' he had likewise the grafi-
fieatien of meeting- he' depatation to which the Kight
Bonl'fllaronet alliidetk and he hoped and believed they
would• construct an 'effective line of. railway *Cm
to Cashel. It -was,' indeed, a great desideratum that
such a plan should be'earried into operation. .He trusted
that when these-gentlemen cane to the House•prepared
with a Bill,- the House would give it a favourable recep
tion. The Hon. Baronet vvhomade the motion preferred
Galway fur a port and terminus. _He (Sergeant Mur-
phy) preferred Cork, and considered. it by far the more
eligible. •
. After-a few words from Sir liowann DOUGLAS and
Sir VALENTINE BLAKE in explanation, the motion was
withdrawn. - •

• RAILWAYS.
The SPEAKER. then -called on Mr. Wallace; whose
name stood ne:xt On the paper; for the following Tito ion :
—" To postpone the moving an instruction to the Com-
mittee on liailways:tititil-atter the discussion of the gone-

ral -qUeStion shall have taken place on, the 29th ; and on
that day to call the attention of the House to the exist-
ing state of the communication by railway thoughout
the kingdom, as shown in a pamphlet entitled 'Railway
Reform,' and move that a commission be appointed, to •
inquire into 'the management of -the present lines, and
report thereon to thetwo•lionAes of Parliament."
Mr. GLADSTONE hoped the Hort. Gentleman would
postpone. the discusSion upon this s''ubject for a short
time; as there was at present h Committee sitting on the
subject of railways. Ile:felt, therefore, that it would be
better if the lion. Gentlenittn would postpone this dis-
cussion, and not enter into the subject at the present
moment, •

Mr: -WALLACE said he would endeavour to bring
the subject. forward on that day three weeks.
The motion was then postponed.
Colonel SIBTHORP rose, hut
_

The SPEAKER said there was no motion before the
House.

Colonel SIBTHORP—Then, Sir I am sorry the Hon.
Member withdrew his motion.--(Laughter.)
THE CLONTARF MEETING.
Colonel RAWDON then rose to bring forward the
foll Owing resolution :--" That it is the opinion of the
House, upon considering the lateness of the period at
which was issued the proclamation of the Irish Govern-
ment, intended to prevent the assembling of a meeting
announced to be holden at or near Clontarf on the Bth

day of October, 1843 ; that a risk of disastrous collision
was incurred, and a precedent thereby created dangerous
to the lives and liberties of her Majesty's subjects.' He
felt that some expression of opinion on the part of that
House ought to go forth to the piiblic, with respect to
the manner in which the proclamation against the meet-
ing to be held at Clontarf, in October last, was issued.
The charge he had to bring against the Government
with respect to this proclamation was one of supineness
and inactivity in their proceedings. It was well known
that the proclamation was not issued until the very
latest moment, although there was nothing that could
have prevented its being issued sooner if the Government
had so pleased. He' was there to deny that the Govern-
ment took proper steps -for the promulgation of that
proclamation. From a letter he had received that day,
it appeared, that the earliest moment at a hich the pro-
clamation was issued was three o'clock in the afternoon
of the day before that on which the meeting was to
be held. The moment that proclamation was issued,
Mr. O'Connell read it at the meeting at the Corn
Exchange, and immediately messengers were sent off
to post up a warning to the people not. to attend the
meeting. He (Col. Rawdon) had received communi-
cations from the persons employed to post up this
warning that was issued by Mr. O'Connell, and he would
take the liberty of reading those communications to the
House. (The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman then read is
number of letters from various persons. .One person
stated, that at eight o'clock on the evening of the 7th
of October, he was seven miles from Dublin, and the
proclamation bad not then arrived. Another said he
arrived at a town ten miles from Dublin, at a quarter
to eleven o'clock at night, and no proclamation had ar-
rived then. Another messenger, who was dispatched to
post up the warnings said, at seven o'clock in the even-
ing the proclamation had not arrived at Maynooth, and
at eight o'clock on the Sunday morning, the day on
which the meeting was to be held, no proclamation bad
arrived at Blanchard's Town—a place about four miles
from Dublin.) Now, these persons who had furnished
him (Colonel Rawdon) with these statements were
ready to make oath as to their accuracy.
Messengers were dispatched in all directions by the As-
sociation when the proclamation was first issued, to stop
the people who were already on the move towards the
place appointed for the meeting ; and when Mr. O'Con-
nell's counter proclamation was shown to them, they
said they did not put any faith in it, and that it must be
a hoax got up by the Orange party; and it was not until
the arrival of Mr. Steele that they could be persuaded
to return, and thus prevent the recurrence of a most
appalling massacre. He hoped the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Ireland would be able to convince the House
that this proclamation could not possibly have been
issued at an earlier period, otherwise they would con-
clude that the people, whether through neglect or other-
wise, had not had sufficient warning. He allowed the
necessity of a Government exercising energy and yrompt-
ness, but he thought also that, in the first instance,
there should have been
.more promptness and decision.
A vast number of persons had come from Manchester,
and other parts of England, to be present at this meet-
ing,—although the vessel in which they came over
also conveyed a large body of troops, who bad come
over in order that they might be in readiness' for the
Clontarf meeting. Now, he thought it was ill-advised.
on the, part of the Government, not to have let the
determination of the Government be known, with
respect to the Clontarf meeting, and thus prevented
these poor men from leaving their work. Dotuaybrosir
was as near, if not nearer, to Dublin than Clontarf, yet
no prohibition had been issued against the meeting,
there. He was sure that no lawyer would deny that
there was an inconsistency in the proclamation. Mg
people of Wales were meeting in the most tumultootia
manner, destroying toll-bars and toll-houses, atttlenz
the houses of individuals, and setting fire to hay and cornricks, and in many instanoes compelling people I:,y threats
of personal Violenoo to give them money; 'while in Ire-
land every one of the meetings was mast peaceable and
orderly, and they only met in accordance with the constitu-
tional principle which recognised the right of the people
to petition for the repeal of a statute. In Wales the
proclamation only called upon the civil officers, such as
sheriffs, bailiffs, and the like, to repress the disturb-
ances. Now, the -Irish proclamation was of quite a.
different character, and such as to induce the people of
Ireland to conclude that a different principle and spirit
'in the law existed with respect to that country. With
respect to the course pursued by Mr. O'Connell and his
coadjutors, be thought it displayed a very excellent con-
ciliatory feeling, for when a Protestant clergyman in
Dublin complained that the procession, when moving
towards Clontarf, would disturb and annoy his congre-
gation at their devotions, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man at once changed the route. In consequence of the
delay of the issue of the proclamation, a truly fearful crisis
had arrived. He hoped •the Ifouse'would not, brreject-
ing this resolution, induce the people of Ireland to con-•
elude that it was careless about the interests of that
portion of the empire, but that it would place it upon its
journals. He felt convinced that they had escapee, a
horrible slaughter -a slaughter which, if it haditifortu-
nately occurred, had been a sad blow to the glory and
prosperity of the empire generally, and would prevent the
Irish people from ever again appealing peaceably
hear
England for a redress of their grivaT:aces.—(Hear hear.)
• Mr. V. STUART said he fel'' bound to second the
motion of his Hon. and Gallalit Friend. He should not,
he thought, be doing his, duty to his constituents if he
did not thus record h;.is opinions in favour of that motion.
The House would perceive from what had been said by
his Hon. and Gallant Friend,. that the notice was given
at a time when it was impossible that it could reach the
thousands who were already preparing to throng to the
meeting. The Government were in possession of all the
information upon which the indictment was founded
against the principal agitators three weeks before, and
it was theirduty to have issued the proclamation at that
time, and not to allow persons to be drawn by ignorance
within the meshes of the law.—(Cheers.) The Mem-
, bers of the Irish -Governnient, who were the guardians
of the public peace, ought • not to have scattered them-
selves,' one here, onelhere, and the Lord Lieutenant
himself to be absent at the very moment when the dan-
ger arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He really thought that it
would be better to have no Lord Lieutenant at all, and
to leave the Government in the hands of a responsible
' Minister, than to maintain a system which worked so
badly.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was the duty of
'the House to' express its opinion by a vote, however
small might be the minority. He, therefore, seconded
the motion.
Lord ELIOT had to apologise to the House for being
obliged to repeat, nearly verbatim, the statement made
first by his Right Hon. Friend, and again by himself in
the 'course of the nine nights' debate. Yet in courtesy
to the Hon. and Gallant Officer, rather than from any
consideration respecting himself, he would repeat that
" twice told tale.' ' Ile. thought, however, it was unusual
after a nine nights' discussion upon the whole subject to
get' up debates, and to take divisions upon each part of
It in detail.=(Tory. cheers.) First, the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer complained that the proclamation had not
beeti published in the 9itzette.ea proceeding which would
have been wholly useless he ventured to say, as no man
in Ireland read the Gazette. The next complaint was
respecting the absence of the Lord Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor, but it was well known that their ab-
sence was caused by illness, which obliged them to re-
pair to England. It was also complained that the first
meeting suppressed was one which had been summoned
by 27 Catholic priests. Bat surely the House had al-
ready been informed that the requisition issued in the first
instance, and signed by those clergymen, was addressed
to the inhabitants of the district of Fingal only. But
afterwards notices were issued calling on the people of
the surrounding counties to assemble, and make it a,.
monster meeting, At that time he (Lord Eliot) was
alone at Dublin, but such was his strong conviction that
this meeting, thus called with military phrase, and to be
marshalled in military array, was an illegal and a dan-
gerous one, that if necessary he should not have hesi-
tated for one moment to take upon himself theo
responsi-
bilitynal of preventing it.--(Hear, hearc._lian. and Lid
placard waa sauctioned by the Corn
Ex
neared in the Natio,'
paper, which was the organ
from the Corn Exchange lof i t
Ipaie Repeal Association.
b
(Cries of " No, no.") Ile egged pardon. That paper
h the repeal wardens were directed tc
Tat
pawatspotuiliQse,papetoTakijuein for time Association, and to rime-
e,—(llear, bear.) a hat placard be (Lord Eliot)
immediately forwarded to hi,.,, light He 'iend (Sir
'Tames Graham), and• •wilkl would deny Oat it was of
such a nature that. tke GOVernment would have abdi-
cated itS kcieylgs, had it allowed 11 to !t'4-s wtheeded t
.

1. N 1

lu k

:l `l i::t

On the receipt by his Right Hon. Friend of this placard,
he (Sir James Graham) immediately called the chief
officers of the Crown together, and the Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland and the Lord Lieutenant were directed
at once to proceed to Dublin. In the meantime the
second placard had been issued, not altering the cha-
racter of the meeting in his opinion, but still so modify-
ing the language in which it was called, as to require
from him and the Government every precaution and dis-
cretion in their acts. The two placards, differing though
they did in terms, meant pretty nearly the self-same
thing, and in his opinion it was mere quibbling to at-
tempt to establish any difference between them. He was
disposed to treat one as he would the other. But not
wishing to be too confident in his own judgment, he im-
mediately transmitted the second to the Government, to
say if there was that substantial difference between the
two that the coucoctors of them would wish the
public to believe. 'This placard reached the Home-office
on Wednesday, the 4th, the day on which the Lord
Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor were to leave Lon-
don for Dublin. It, of course, required deliberation ;
for be (Lord Eliot) should like to know what Honour-
able Gentleman opposite, what the country at large
would have said, if they had issued a proclamation to
put down a meeting whose illegality they could not
clearly establish?—(Hear, hear.) What would have
been said of them to put cavalry, infantry, and artillery
into motion, and take possession of ground to hinder a
meeting being held which might have been proved con-
sonant with the law?—(Hear, hear.) This was a point
of great nicety, and he felt it-as such; for, as he had be-
fore said, he had no doubt in his own mind of the intent
of both the placards being the same ; still, what he, in
these altered circumstances, had to ascertain, was the
opinion which the law would attach to the second one.
—(Hear, hear.) The Government, however, came to the
same conclusion as to „the character of the two
placards. They determin that the intention of the
meeting was not altered by the issuing of the
second placard—that, in their opinion, it was de-
cidedly illegal. This circumstance detained the Lord-
Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor until Thursday. By
the post of Thursday morning Lord de Grey wrote to
him to say they would leave by the train that evening,
and directed him, on the receipt of his letter, to call a
meeting of the chief persons of the Government. Un-
fortunately, that letter did not reach him (Lord Eliot)
until after the disembarkation of Lord de Grey on Fri-
day morning. A meeting of the principal officers of the
Government took place that evening, • and the discre •
tionary power which Lord de Grey had been armed
with by the Government it was determined should be
exercised. Now, it was very easy to say a proclamation
could be drawn up in ten minutes, but, in his (Lord
Eliot's) opinion, all such documents, to be drawn pro-
perly and effectually, should be drawn thoughtfully.
The proclamation was drawn up, and next morning it
was submitted to the Privy Council, but it was nearly
twelve o'clock before the members could be got to-
gether, for the purpose of signing it. It was two before
the proclamation was in the printer's hands. The Hon.
and Gallant Colonel (Rawdon), in introducing his mo-
tion, had read several letters, stating the time at which
the proclamation was posted in the parts around Dublin,
and founding from them an imputation upon the Govern-
ment. Now, he had two papers in respect to those letters
which he wished the House to pay attention to. The
whole of the Gallant Colonel's evidence was of a nega-
tive character. His correspondents did not see the
proclamation posted about. Now he had a return from
Colonel M'Gregor, the head of the constabulary, and
one of the most honourable and able man that ever held
office. With this return he had received a map of the
_country thirty miles round Dublin, marked with all the
principal police stations. The return pointed to the
several stations, and stated at what hours the proclama-
tions arrived, and were spread around the country. At
Howth they arrived at seven that evening; at Johns-
town, a distance of 20 Irish miles, they arrived at the
same hour' ; at Bray, at five on the Saturday morning ; at
Kildare, a distance of thirty-one miles, before daylight ;
at Selbridge, between seven and eight; and so on. In
fact, mounted policemen were dispatched to between 60
and 70 stations. Now, Hon. Gentlemen, in making
these charges against the
Government for delay in the
issuing of the proclamation, had invariably kept in the
back ground the important fact, that these meetings never
took place till the afternoon. The placard ordering out
the repeal cavalry did not require them to muster at
Clontarf until twelve o'clock. Therefore there was none
of the particular inconvenience that was complained of, nor
was there danger. Why, he (Lord E.) nas himself there,
and could spea of his own knowledge to seeing the pro-
clamations in the most populous and frequented parts of
Dublin. The proclamation was at the Corn Exchange,
and was being criticised and taken to pieces there before
the hour of three o'clock.—(Hear, hear.) Where was
the danger ? Hon: Gentlemen were constantly assert-
ing that the masses were always unarmed, and the Go-
vernment had covered the ground at an early hour with
cavalry, artillery, and infantry, and had strong bodies
besides stationed in every proper place, and was it to be
supposed unarmed people would attack them? Govern-
ment had taken every precaution, and shown the highest
humanity.—(llear.) Without disrespect, then, to any one
he would assert that it was absurd to say that the people
would have taken possession of the ground, or that there
was any danger of collision. The Hon. and Gallant
Colonel (Rawdon) had said that these meetings were
safety-valves, and that people had a right to petition.
Now he (Lord Eliot) saw no safety-valves in such meet-
ings as these ; and he begged to say that for the nine
months during which they had been going on, no peti-
tions whatever to Parliament had been adopted.—(Hear,
bear.) It should be remembered, too, that though the
Government had no moral doubt of the impropriety and
injurious tendency of these meetings, such were not the
grounds upon which they could constitutionally act.
It was necessary they should have legal proof of their
danger to the peace and good order of the country before
they would be in a position to put them down, or to pro-
s,cute the conveners of the meetings with any prospect of
success. He believed he might appeal with confidence to the '
Attorney-General for Ireland, whether or not the first
proceeding was taken the moment the Government be-
lieved they had evidence to prosecute the parties with
effect. At the time of the Clontarf proclamation there
was a strong case, but not such a case as to enable the
Government to take the steps they afterwards did take.
He would not now diverge into other topics, as there
would be other and more fitting occasions for doing so.
—(Hear, hear.) He would not go into the other charges
• against the Government.—(Hear, hear.) He had con-
, fined himself strictly to the Clontarf proclamation, and
he: could assure the House, notwithstanding all that
had been said to the contrary, that there had been no
intention on the part of the Government to entrap the
people.—(Hear, bear.) He did not believe any danger
had occurred to any individual from the issuing of the
proclamation ; and under these circumstances, he did not
think the House was called upon to express its censure of
the- Government in the way asked for by the Hon. and
Gallant Member.
Mr. SOMERS would support the motion of the Hon.
and Gallant Member. He deprecated the course that
bad been adopted by the Government towards Ireland.
They found, when the present Government came into
power, Ireland peaceful and quiet, and what was its
condition now ? The acts of the present Government
. had alienated the feelings of the people of Ireland from
them.
- Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD could not allow some
of the observations of the Noble Lord to pass unan-
swered. He had complained of this subject being
brought forward at the present moment, after a nine
days' Jebate. In his (Mr. S. Crawford's) opinion, the
question ;:,ad now been properly raised and properly de-
bated. The grievances of the people of Ireland ought
to be debated over and over again till they were redressed.
It was said the meeting at Clontarf was illegal, because
the notice stated that the parties were to assemble in a
sort of military array. He denied that such a pro-
. ceeding was illegal, and he did so from precedents that
had taken place in Ireland. When the Orange pro-
cessions took place in Ireland, the party appeared in
military array; they carried arms, and shots were fired,
and yet these meetings were not deemed ill gal. The
Noble Lord said that he did not believe that a single
petition had been got up at these meetings—was he in
the House yesterday when the Hon. Member for Cork
had a pile of them by him?—(Hear, hear.) He would
give his decided support to the motion of his- Gallant
Friend, and he hoped that other motions would be made
on other points of the late proceedings. He hoped that
some constitutional lawyer would take notice of the pro-
ceedings of the Irish Attorney-General, and the insult
he offered to the Bench, thereby attacking the liberty
of the subject.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE would support the motion of his
Gallant Friend, on the broad principle that they had not
adopted a similar measure towards Ireland in the pre-
sent case, as they would, under similar circumstances,
have adopted towards England. He would not attri-
bute motives to the Government ; but the effect of their
acts was likely to lead to the worst of consequences.
The Noble Lord must know that the publication of their
proclamation, unless aided by Mr. O'Connell, would have
been worth nothing. And all this risk was incurred on
account of some gasconade put in the Nation newspaper
• by some senseless blockhead. The Right Hon. Baronet
must know as well as any man, that there were such
blockheads to be found in every party. The Right
Hon. Baronet had some brainless blockheads about him
—(Laughter.) And what was to be done with them ?
They could not reason with them—(Laughter)—and yet
they ran the risk &involving the country in a civil
war, on account ofja-tolish thing, not done ostensibly,
and not acknhwflod• by 'the ' party. He felt
that he was •in6i diSe_tissing a question
already tolerably, threadliar the same time
the importance of the ';was not lessened
by their debating it. ' Ito otria -lustre the House that
those who were trying to preis.' the Irish question on the
attention of that house, and of the people of this country,
were just as wearied and disinclined to do it as
any person in the world. But 46 felt bound to say that
he thought the Hon. and Gallant Officer was quite right
in bringing such a question before the House. The
question resolved itself into this--that the Government
had done in Ireland what, in similat'thrcumstances, they
would not venture to do in Englatid.—(Hear.) What-
ever course a certain body, then agitating the repeal of
a certain Act of Parliament might adopt—of this he
was convinced, that whatever might be the number of
their meetings, they would not attempt to destroy the
right of public discussion in England, without, at least,
going through more of the forms of law than they had
observed in Ireland.—(Hear.) It was this neglect of
Irish questions, and the contemptuous treatment of this
• ooantry by the people of England, that made him a firm
and-"decided repealer ; and he should continue to be
so, as long as he saw in England one measure of justice
for Ireland and another for this country. He thought,
froin what he saw, that there was but little chance of
the people of England forcing the Government
to consider this Irish question; and having that
convietipn, he had still but one course to
▪ pursue-"; that was, in spite of the threats of
• • tile HO% Gentlemen opposite, to continue the agitation i
of the question of repeal as long and as ardently as he
could, within the bounds and limits of the Constitution.