The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

"•''''"""*"'"'"'"'”`"`"'"*"."'"'"iTility
His Friend the. Meniber for Bridport
ask him that evening when it was. •the intentioa01cei,
Majesty's Government tOProceed with measures. iptii4
practical importance, on which the greatest anxielitol
public • mind prevailed, and which he acnit,teindeill'
necessary to proceed ivith-withotit
the Factories Bill and the Poor-law. NOV he tateo'
remind the House• that since the protracted ~
the affairs of Ireland, they had had too days foyfe roy
and on each of those. occasions the
for Rochdale made it motion before glf, 104
Committee, • for the avowed purpose 9'
ing the progreas of the votes. (Ileac,
also, the Hon. Gentleman, adopting the same•dinotiO,,
pursuing the saline course, not content with one aD
that evening m. 0.& a second, re-opeiling nearly
questions with reference. to .the ,conduct of tuoo
which had already undergone protracted discoid'
Under these circumstances he must,: auticriP
question of the Honourable • Member 'ere
port, by stating that it was impossible .„°l,
Majesty's Government to fix any precise time tr,
ceeding with the measures to which the flues toliso
ferred.—(Hear, hear, from the: Ministerial VG,
Now with reference to the motion of the H°n',,nssi"
man, he at once.avowed that- hele. Mplestjitifie,v,:lo4,
observing in the early,part of last year the i-eissdi
which was used' at large meetings assembled in Ir,
rapid succession, did think it their impera,i.;ct
to obtain clear,'authentic, and sa''eetiof
evidence as to the language employed at theseltisol
He said decidedly that he•ShOuld have betrayal 00
to the public if he had omitted every fair opPocrt`ln,
obtaining.authentic,information. Now he sa' 11°.,af#6
tlemen on the other-side opPoSed to him—he wg-fio,
bitterly opposed to him—in' party politics, but he_Ail
ask them whether, at all times, it had not been the 9
of the executive Government, when popular ese's vre°
was running high, and immense public nieetingtoo
being assembled, to, obtain authentic inforaltare'
means of shorthand-writers astothe lane-nage 1~
to to meetings of this description?--,(llear,ahe.sr, Cris
John Russell.) The simple question was wh:iro,
means employed for obtaining information were ht 61'
legitimate. Now, the Hon.. Gentleman had thous
use, he would not say offensive, but certainly verY_'d
language with reference to the course which l;
pursued in the case under consideration. toots
James Graham) did not shrink froth avowing 00:'
the means which had been adopted teiel
information in this case had been adePtcbe
him, and on his personal responsibility.^,, ft`
°
from the Ministerial benches, and " Hear, hear' 611011,
both sides of the House.) He did not wish Miley
this responsibility with any
,Of his colleagues e,
hear)—he was the perstm who was resPousl
from that responsibility he would not shrinkw-;ilit
The course he adopted-with respect, to Mr. Boot
was, to apply to Mr. Gurney, the gentleman at apt,
ly
of the reporting establishment fox-the Gsvernal!A 00.;
ask him to get on intelligent person, and a geu" rie°
hand writer, and direct him, to procure this Ifogil"
services, at the usual rate of remuneration give° e
tlemen so employed. Mr. Gurney, in accordancti sl
those directions, procured, Mr. Bond Hughes, sl'oott'
gentleman was sent over to Ireland, to tateeetiot,
hand notes of the speeches -made at. ;those oeiticed,
He (Sir J. Graham) was perfectly willing 1,
return of all the moneys expended under this head es'
should most freely give returns of all the 01
pended under the item of Mr. Gurney's shortly ° to"
blishment, and in those documents it would 1400/
that Mr. Bond Huhes did not receive any higlh,,eo
neration for his services on those trials
other Government shorthand writer ; arid -.l.easb''d,
convinced that the Honourable Member for -,1%tr0,;,i
would find that this remuneration had not been wit ",.1
occurred
The Hon. Member had referred to woarre'ot
occurred concerning the mistake about Air' ss
,p
name ; but with this . exception, there .°1:0,1 bto,
one portion of Mr. Hughes's evidence which ,100,
shaken, even by. the strictest cross-examina,`",
should say, with respect to Mr. Charle'rssf,,,,"
that the first oeettsion • upon which the Go' to Phi
thought fit to send a shorthand writer a
land was in the, • month •of June, ~°31,. 000
avowed that he had. known Mr. Ross l°'9, vie
years, and felt confident that he wasbie
accurate reporter and a trustworthy and honou'▪ ' his net
He (Sir J. Graham) knowing him to be such, ortibst
responsibility, sent for Mr. Roas, and told liiinoeeedy
Government wished a Shorthand writer to 'Pr.h-st
Irerand for the purpose of attending a meetinqt. Pfe
•to be held at Donnybrook. His' direction to o,cooo
-was, " You will'proceed there—you will take-an 000
' note of what is said, and be prepared to veal ti„P.°gesi?,
.tbat which you hear." The pecuniary 1.111,,,,,r
was that Mr. Ross was to receive 504 for his -o,tiev,,,
expenses. Mr. Ross did proceed to Ireland---heorbsP„l
the 'meeting at Donnybrook, and he took a session,
report-of it. Subsequently at the end' of the OI,
Parliament, before Mr, Bond Hughes wasimsess,.eii4
another . arrangement was made with Mr.
'was that he should again proceed to Ireland. Ile 0019
:there dining the•recesa—the whole of the reCests, boSt,r,
r. Ist or 24 ,of August, until the first week in J; to
for the- stun of '3601. It would appear, Nyhett the 10/
nay's aceount:was presented to the House, tn"
of payment to Mr. Ross ,was considerably less pel÷ir
rate of payment to-Mr. Bond Hughes, and thew. tiju
employed in Mr. Gurney's establishment. :14_° by
cusation was, 'that :Mr.
,Ross was sent over elf 'Ol
(Sir James Graham) as a spy. • He most sole?rectido
positively denied that •• accusation.. His ~4{ll,osel.c'
t° Mr. Ross were; to go to Ireland and. altPw
the reporter for the Goieriiaeut. He (Sir J. sGntb re„
knew that at that time Mr. Ross was connecteo,'ol it
fr
porter with one of the. Morning papers--,he he the I
Morning•Chionicle.also aware that At /etc
of the session of Parliament Mr.:Ross...Went tc: getOihe
for the Standard.-. But his directions to ss
man were; " You will proceed :to Irelem
reporter for, the` Government." He did not
concealment whatever. .He did .not sanction it an ('h4,,
rectly or indirectly. :But the Hon. Gentillooli'f.
Duncombey said that. after all it was well7' t.
Mr. Ross was employed .by the Governrallei
Duncombe made some Obiervationacross the Ttilelfor
we did not • hear.) •- He certainly underston the bol
Gentleman to say that Mr. Ross had conceal; at be
of.his being the Government reporter, and he*,v
travelled with Mr. Steele forty-two miles ";.7bs°'
Government reporter. grow this he (Sir if
solutely and positively denied. Of
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE--It was his own evi-e ail :0
Sir J. GRAHAM- had not the 'least objectito°olJ
these circumstances, to 'produce the a""°'leys Arc'
monies paid to Mr. Ross, and of an ios",,ero
to • Mr. Bond Hughes, and of t'le• -05
tions given to them. Those' instruct'' ▪ vois is
certainly- verbal, for which he (Sir J. Grakti,rll:llnosoe'
sponsible.' Now with regard to the case of 011301
That was the third case mentioned by the-l'°) list e:
man. With Mr. Jackson he (Sir J. Grahliran; otter •tieo
no communication. Mk. Jackson was a rer, ost,'
nected, with the. Morning Herald,' and wail to °,1.1.41
in The Crown solicitor was bowie sr, ,J'i,,ft•
-6Videllee to corroborate the 'testimony' lc4c,a th°
Hughes and Mr.,' Rosii 'and ,he'aScertaietill vd
Jackson had iaken_noteaof some of, the 1ne1i0n.„,4.1,
therefore . communicated with ..Mr:/Bc;n4 Prie6
with the conductors of the ..02°11i- 'ool)%eir
in whose service Mr. Jackson was, eases Pe
A return should be made of all the law 0-13, toes )11'
red in the late prosecutions, in which -wool"
.„-ia t°o,ll
amount of all the moneys that had been
Jackson. He must again declare that no coal"' swot
whatever had taken place between the Govertilli- . '
Mr. Jackson further than he had stated. • , '4,ite
Mr. DUNCOMBE—Or the Morning Beratbe
Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed that hi, defitt'roti
must deteimine whether, in a case of trl,overl;je el
tion, it was not the boUnden duty Of the L.,,essi,
rtes
to bring as much corroborative evidence as r,•tlea
the persons employed by the G ro''
testimony was obtained openly and hou°viotioiciab:f
evernment, P row 1::,
had no ,hesitation in, avowing-that a cout„';,ll,..P.,ig
been made by the Government to the .o.•"'clew the
orat.,,,
and Standard newspapers, requesting the Proleent
those papers to' allow their reporters to. Collo ovelt":"Lifio
testimony of the persons "employed by the the ric,l,
lie (Sir J. Graham) had told the House tis
o to
which, on the part of. the Government, he .sv
assent to the production of. He 1 inSilli,„cs
produce a return. of all moneys paid, and rat
given on the part Of the Government, wit 4.hat alga
the late prosecutions ; and he-would add.;(l.iiii °I; 40;
now, or on, some future occasion, he Woe epos'
table a return of the rate, of pay to. then ,: in -troolo
ployed ei! Mr. Gurney's establishment, hiiich it o.oe
and Wales, on similar Occasions, front (111• ,
be seen that the payments .that. teNle
jo
late occasion were not greater propo- ape 0
fie, to
.previous ones.—(Hear, .hear.) He now 'eto
portion of the Hon. Gentlenian!s motiot.tibe last
tali
must decidedly object. He objected t° it (2.1t,e1,;
of the Hon. Member for. Finsbury, bee3ust-,
insinuations that could not be inisunilerL_„° all,
tamed insinuation's that to the Adorning nbita toe.
Standard newspapers sums of noner4 0103f1
paid, and that some corrupt pracie:
inostsoffler.
place.—(Hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) in tut. gach
~;01 au
manner as a gentleman denied the ntleuP-
•nsiuoo° r,
tions, and he contended that the Hon-Geet,
right in the shape- of a return to malt' sto-
-insinuations thatconveyed an indelible
publieso..
truth 0 e
hear.) The gentleman. connected with tiilicar,D
possessed fine and honourable feelings---.,nric to ire re;
and more incapable of doing that dirt,ylf7wEis
the Hon. Gentleman had adverted. of • t,
solved, therefore, to resist the produe,twe was f; itldreturn-he
was aware that in doing
Valli he "(ith°ifi'
the Hon.<Gentleman an advantage w 'eati,g 0,0,011 r:
Viz., the reP
be sloW avail himself of,
sinuation with double effect that there was 00.40
t thole° 00 of
coraltefd.orßtuhtatheinasginainnatrieopne,attehet inwtalt4entnoo!lbeo:ont.
With respect to the last return which td'ol
man had moved, for-:rnamelY, ov to rSfc'ohcj
the perions now employed by Mr. GU„rni;•lthe
proceedings in the Corn
he
after nOOO, ho.(. 4
which they had had 'of the posting-01 fainer,
Pay'
in the streets of Dublin as a spy tiiose Ptiag,to,
a return
J. Graham) was not -prepared t hole. tbir..
consen o 0
to public execration, as he' would sate
give that return..-,(Hear, hear.); 'lOO ii
he would just observe, that' in those
easy task to insure the administratiSta.,!Vsaniep
against great offenders, withat...ifieur /06°1;
of public obloquy. _lt was his painful satlswrii,
curring that obloquy. But it was
thou on the whole ,lie. bad ,succee
rrdinnry p uoles,
only the law, and asking for. no e;i.tra° (as""e to" :I'lol
in putting 'down a dangerOus conspirnaieYbringieghe h ,
'stood the Right Hon. Gentleman)' a Zing so, tirahlin;
tice great public •offenders.- • holl°a 11.°0
acted conscientiously,. faithfully,
be detelt,ebe.ll°lol
and he 'was not • going tO. remind leis:
cd
continuing in.that course. lie would d given °Argo
of the account the F100:-Gentleinfu! 11(A.dient1017teY
conditetto4tighr. .onetitnelietattteke
attar ed e
ill political trials—another time he a'