The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-04 00:00:00

WAYS AND MEANS.-SUGAR DUTIES.

having been z ead, ' and the
The Order of the Day for the Committee of Ways
)
The CHANCELLOR of the EX:aIIEQIJER said that,
asnpedakMeerahnasv(inSgugleafrt
tDheutciehsalr,
although he was addressing the House fornied- into Cone
him that
mittee of Ways and Means, the ob,ject• of which was
essentially to provide means for raising the supply for
carrying on the Government and administering
the
affairs of the nation, he was sure that there was not a
toMemabdemritwhtohathegaurdestimis
wen., was, not
,prepared
involied
~.
in
the
resolutions which he had to submit .of far
greater importance than mere considerations of revenue.
lie was sure they, would all admit that the question
of the sugar duties involved' considerations of the
greatest importance to all classes in this country—to the
interests of our own colonies, and to our intercourse with
those nations with which we had so long and steadily
delayed to form treaties, in consequence of considera-
tions with which this question was connected. It
would be his duty to reconcile the various con-
flicting points which would arise out of the alto.
ration . In . the suer (Nth's—At would •be his
of sugar with the course which the
duty to recorteile the messUPlas -WltiOlt Would be taken to
trade, and-also with the interests of those who had i.q
to the slave
IgGtilverernms e6nutPtiYad pursued with aspect
possessions of this
$44 .tilP Willathlll- of thiltilol4sP, to uphold. There
he believed it
evoettliegt,tll, ettinrap,ajecriityitinwth,Ase choilsoldiliistly,
44
Was 4299 t4inif itl Which he felt 84tisfied that he should
'IMP She RnaßiPloo 69413041- 44 the jim0ie...6.4 to the
Reettisitir of keeping up the supply of 'Altar, which had

~'. i'~

_
- • -
hedonics almOst a-necessary of life, essential to the eons-.
fort of a- large number of the•people ; upon this- the
rouse shade always expressed a decided "opinion.
The maintetianee of an essential article was a subject on
which lee ..vas sure there would be no difference ofopinions
although there might be a differencO as to the manner
in whi Si it would be most expedient to maintain
that susply. That object had here:ofore been secured
by the -leg station which they had at different times
adopted. Previous to. the emancipation of the riegroes
the pro lace of our West Indian • colonies was more than
sufficient for the consumption in these countries; and
tillowsd of the export of at least 'one-third
t:f the • whole. At- • that time the • supply
of this ce,leitry was secured, and there was a good assu-
rance that the price would be kept down to a proportion
With ehe prices in other countries; 'bss the effect of that
large ant constant surplus, disposed sof in the other
marke a of Europe. -But when the emancipation
of nee'roes took place there. was" a pro-
b that there would be a diminished supply, to
Mee! ••e hich diminution Parlianaent -determined, by
equaibiag the duties upon East and West Indian sugars,
to bring into the market the produce -of a part of tho
British -dominions, having a rich soil, cultivated by free
and cheap leboter, and possessing- -very great
facilities of communication and transit to this country.
He did not apprehend that the immediate "consequence
hf adhering to the present system Would be
,to create
tiny great dearth of sugar, or cause any serious' incon-
4/eine:lc-sin this respect. -But. when he considered the
improve.' coneli;ion of the population within the last
year. froth the extension of employment and increase of
Svogs.s that had. taken place, and the consequent demand
thet w atlel arise for an article that was now little short
pt a necessary of life, he had thought it Ilia duty to sub-
mit a measure • that should provide. not merely
tier the supply of it that might be imme-
diately required -for the • consumption of the
Country,. but also to -create something. of a surplds. There
twits, in consequence of their altered relations with China,
facility of procuring a supply froin that country, and
it was important, in order to extend their trade; that a
freer admission should be given to other articles from
China than these which they. had. hitherto taken. Under
these circumstances he had thought it his duty to sub-
mit the proposition of which he had given notice, .for
the admission of free-labour sugar upon the terms stated
in the resolution. The proposition. was not now for
'the first. bins submitted to the ,House, and on looking
back on the occasions on which it. had been under
Icon,Ocration, he could not find that there had been any
tlisp es- thin en the part of any gentleman in that House to
obje,4- to the-principle Ofsuch an arrangement. Ifit had
been opp, ea, d on those occasions, it had _been, met by
. argil :rents applicable tp the circumstances of- the time
at. which the pi opo,ition wets: made. He Would ask the
`Hint. Altanher tor. Taunton (Mr. Labouchere), upon
whom it had devolved to resist this proposition, whether
his Of jeetion.to. it did not arise principally from the
.circula tAnc..s or the time?. This country was then under
the tibligst ions of commercial treaties with the United
Stat.s, anti partictilsrly with Brazil, 'and it was impos-
aible: to .ter the- distinction between slave and free-
grtiw4i trig while professing to admit the latter they
might give
.indiscriminate admission to the former.
In leg,: rill -1g the mode in which free-labour
sugar was to be admitted to their markets,
th- y mu-t first guard against the invasion of the
principles on which they proceeded, by allowing
the intrOduCtion of free-labour sugar being made a cloak
for bringing in the Sugar produced by slaves. With respect
to the (nod of.guarding against such an introduction, he
thought th .ro would be but little difficulty. it had been
foUnd that a certificate of origin, accompanied as. it was
now inteaded it should be, by the certificate of the
British authority at the port of shipment, were
sufficient to - prevent any. invasion of the law.
It was not necessary to repeat the arrangements which
would be adapted tee prevent the introduction of slave-
labour susar under, the denomination of free-labour
sugar.. Telose arrangements - had been found quite
effectual in relation to other articles. There were some
who suppos,ed that the protective duty of 10s. per cwt. was
more than was necessary for the-protection of our colonial
interest+ against the competition of free-labour sugar, but
it should
.be recollected, that in Java alone a much
greater qemeitity of sugar was raised than was requisite
for the supply of the country; and it was raised in
great quantities in Manilla, where its cultivation • was
capable of teeing greatly extended; and -that with re-
spect to Chine, while it was impossible to calculate the
quantity of sager which must be expected from that
country, it was - well known that it exported large
quantities to countries in the neighbourhood. He
sound, • however, that the measure which he
was about to submit to the House was likely
to meet with Opposition from various quarters on
different grounds. The Hon. Member for Dumfries
argued that no distinction of duty ought to be
made between sugar, the produce of the British
possessions, and that which was the produce of any
tither country. The Noble Lord- (the Member for
London) was prepared to contend that no distinc-
tion in duty ought to be made bet Ween sugar the
produce of free labour and sugar the produce of slave
labour, whilst his lion. Friend behind him was prepared
tee agree that the protection proposed for colonial sugar
against sugar the produce of free labour was insufficient,
.nd therefore he proposed a reduction of the duty on
.a)lonial sugar. With respect to the proposition of the
lion. Member for Dumfries, he need not occupy the time
of the House by discussing it. It had been•ful!y.discussed
in 1842, when the House-had expressed an opinion not in
ascordance with that entertained by the Hon. Member,
and during the present year in a discussion on the gees-
tion-of coif Is the House had adhered to its former opinion,
e.Wch was that the colonial possessions of the empire were
entitled to protection. He came, in the- next place, to
consider the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, the
Member for Bristol, and he could assure him that those
intirested in the West Indian possessions of the country
must not impute to the Government • Want•
.of sym-
pathy wi;1) their interests and feelings. He felt
deep sympathy with their interests, and he could make
all allowances fur the feelings under which they laboured.
But after most attentive consideration of the subject, he
believed th- measure which he was about to pro-
pose was the one which would ultimately prove the
best caleuheted to promote -their permanent prosperity.
He would not deny but that the effect of the measure
would be to effect a certain reduction in the price of
sugar, or ra:her to prevent its augmentation; but of this
he was confi.lent, that of all the dangers which could effect
the West Indian interests, none could be greater than
such an increase in the price of their staple commodity
as would hi-Wet such an injury upon the population of
this country as to raise a permanently hostile feeling
against them. Ile was convinced that if the price of
sugar eas tee rise to 495. per cwt., as itdwas in 1840, the
effect whibh ; t would produce upon the permanent interests
of the colonial proprietors would be most disastrous.
He thought it was neeessary Where him intended to make
a change in the amount of duty at the earliest possible mo-
ment, to intimate to the parties what was the amount of the
protection tee be ensured on the introduction of sugar,
the produ e of free labour. The colonies stood in
this particular situation :—they were , looking to
an early period of having the opportunity of
employing additional labour. In order to do this
they would have to invest capital ; and he thought;
therefore, Is'ore they called upon them to embark in this
expedition, it was but right that they should know dis-
tinctly that the protection they now had would be con;
tinued. . With respect to-the notice that had been given
by the No' le Lord, the Member for the City of London,
he had only to say that he thought it would be found to
be, one very difficult to carry. out. The Noble Lord was
prepared to extend to all sugar the same protection.
The views of the Noble Lord appeared to him not
calculated to effect the object he had in view..- He was
for unlimited introduction, -and that- would undoubtedly
tend to the increase of theve-trade. But he would leave
it•to the Noble Lord to explain his own views on the sub-
jset. 11 hat inconsistency would it not be on their part to
make such exertions as they had been making for the
suppression of the slave trade, and which was still car-
ried sei in spite of all their energy, in spite of the vessels
• which they had 'on• the coast of Africa, if they now
gave ftcilities for. the introduction of slave-grown
sugar. It would •give those who were engaged in the
era he every inducement to continue it. When the
estimates were before the House the 'Hon., Member for
e said, with perfect truth, that they could
only, suppress the slave trade by diminishing
the, profits of those who - were engaged 'in it,
and not by force.. How could they more effec-.
, tuft is reduce the profits of -those embarked in the slave'
trade than by shutting them. out - from the- markets'
of Great Britain? Ile should therefore like to know how
the Noble Lord Would defend his' proposition?, He had
heard it hinted that by admitting sugar, the_ produce of
riign countries not
fee using slaie labour, they would cre-
ate.
a-vacuum in other countries which would be supplied
fr6iii Brazil and - other slave-growing tountries.
Hie .differed_ from that view entirely.: He was of
ppiamn
•the effect of it would be •to enhance the
price of slave-grown sugar as contrasted with
-the produce Of • free countries. But it was no
Matter to them how other countries acted, their
consciences - would be free. He now begged to advert,
to -another. 'part of the question, that which related
to the granting of favourable, terms to those
c. untries with which they had commercial treaties.
B'-azil was a country with which they had a treaty Of
this kind. They had also treaties with the
Uuiteel States, Sweden, Mexico, Buenos Ayres,
Columbia, Bolivia, and Peru. In some of these
countries there was no pretence for • saying
that the slave trade existed. Mexico and Colum-
bia had declared that they, would consider the slave
trade as piracy ;
:and there was no apprehension is
to the amount of sugar which those countries could
produce, or- of any
"encouragement for the slave
trade. The . only , territories that remained
were those
.of the United States and Sweden-;-
Sweden possessing only one small-island; the produce of
which was not sufficient for. the supply of Sweden her-
self The United States certainly produced 50,000 tons
per year; but they also imported a very large quantity
from Other countries. But it had been suggested
that the Americans would give . a bounty of
Us.. or 18s., to enable them.. to compete- But
that was not consistent with the general character
_ot-
American statesmen, who had recently abolished the
syStern of bounties upon exports. After a few further
• observations the' Right Hon. Gentleman conclnded by
moving
the Supply granted 'to
1. That, towards tithing
her Majesty; the *veva duties, new payable on
slia; ar ba fur.thei cpiltyin6d for a time to be li-
mited, save And except • that from and Olin the
'loth day.. of Noveinber next, thete khNll
.be charged
on brow?, MuSf;:oiadoi or clayed segar, certified to be
the growtkof asisia, Java, or Manilla, or of any other
isaign "country, the sugar of which her Majesty in
6'ouncil shall have -declared to be admissible- tas not
beings thaprOduce of slave labour the Ovite 14 14so tot
gygther.'iVith-44 41,141=4 duty,qt•-g•perowitum on the
afavoioniloneil rate, .
That, from and after th'e 10th day of November
next, liar Majesty be authorised, by Order ~.;^ cOuncil,la

i gire effect to the provisions of any treaty Row in
force; Which binds -her Majesty to -admit - sugar, the
produce of a foreign country, at the same duties as
are imposed on sugar the produce of the most favoured
nation,

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved, as an amendment to
the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a
reduction to thirty-four shillings of the duty on all
sugar from foreign countries. He (Lord J. Russell) said
the Right Hon. Gentleman in proposing these resolu-
tions had referred to former contests. He said that this
was an old battle-field, and he expressed his surprise
that he (Lord J. Russell) should be anxious to appear
twain on a field where he had been already defeated.
?ow, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had •him-
self sounded a retreat to the forces which he commanded.
—(Hear, hear.) He appeared prepared to give up half
the ground for which he had been contending ; and he
(Lord John Russell) came forward with greater
confidence than on former occasions, because he
found that the Right' Honourable Gentleman
had abandoned those weapons. which he - for-
merly wielded - with very great effect; that • he had
deserted those Who had looked to him for protection,
and they might now expect this question to be decided
on the real ground of the facts and arguments .which
applied to the case.—(Cheers.) He had never known
the Right Hon. Gentleman appear to lack argument so
much as on that occasion. He had stated at the com-
mencement of his speet,h, that there was not at present
a sufficient supply, and that the price of sugar was his
reason for introducing this change. Why, in. the battle
which was formerly waged. arguments quite' as urgent
were stated in favour of a change, and were successfully
repelled. The Right Honourable Gentleman said that
the 'price of ' sugar was so very high.--r(Laughter.)
From the last Gazette it appeared that the price of
sugar the hundred weight, in the British possessions in
America, was 39a. 91d. ; the average price of the three
descriptions of sugar in the last year was 375. 3d.. The
average price of sugar in 1841 was 38s. 3,d. The price
in 1840 was na less than 48s The Right Hon., Gentle-
man now came forward, and said that the price of 475.,
being os. More than the price of last year, was a conclu-
sive argument in'faveur of the proposed alteration. He
recollected, with regard to the amount of- sugar which
was avail able at a former • period, that the Noble
Lord; the 'Member • for Liverpool, stated that
here were about 240.000 tons available for
consumption in this country, whilst the Hon.
Member for Beverley stated, that the amount was
260;000. What was the statement made at a meeting
of- West India proprietors ? That the supply of 1844
from the West Indies, was 128,000 tons, from the East
Indies, 70,000, and from the Mauritius, 32,000, making
230,000 tons, with a reserve of 40,000 at the be-
ginning of the year. If these facts which be had
mentioned were sufficient to induce those who now
formed the Government to reject the proposition of the
late Government, was not the supply of 240,000 tons suffi-
cient to prevent the necessity for the proposed alteration?
There were reasons to which he had before referred, as
to the necessity of securing a better general supply of
sugar, which he thought were sufficient to induce the
Committee to reconsider their determination at that
time, and to propose such an additional supply. But if
that was to be done, and if it was to be done with the
consent of the Government, again he said let them make
their measure a straightforward one—(Hear, hoar)—
let them make it a measure that should be according to
the laws and principles that governed trade and com-
merce. If they thought fit to give a certain protection
to their colonial possessions in consequence of the great
change they had made with regard- to their labour, let
that be done, and let them make that a ground of dis-
tinction between their colonies and other countries. But
let them not adopt a new principle in commerce, one
which would make a confusion from which they would
-find it difficult to escape—one contradicting all the
known maxims on which the progress of this country in
trade had hitherto been based. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said that this proposition was not a new one,
because it had before been proposed by the
Hon. Gentleman behind him, and had been discussed
in the House. Why, he might as well say, if he
was bringing in a Bill for establishing universal suffrage,
that it was not new, because it had been already pro
posed and vindicated by the Hon. Member for Hoch-
dale.—(Hear, hear.) But in point of fact it was a new
principle • be contended that placing their tariff on
grounds Of morality, erecting a pulpit in their Custom-
house, and converting the whole of their landing waiters
into preachers of anti-slavery doctrines, was altogether
a new principle in commerce.—(Cheers.) He objected,
in the first place, entirely to the principle itself ; he
thought it could end in nothing but mischief; he thought
it would be impossible to act consistently upon it. With
respect to this very question they took commodities from
various countries indifferent states of civilisation, some
of which. were governed by barbarous chiefs, who exer-
cised a despotic power of life and death over their sub-
jects. There were others, consisting of millions of people
in the low condition of serfs, among whom the most hor-
rible cruelties were practised—yet they did not ask,
when the goods arrived at the Custom-house, what was
the social condition of these people, or what the practices
of the senates and rulers who governed them. They
took them as a matter of trade, and sold thorn their goods
in return. There were other ways in which they might
attend to the social happiness of the world, but with
respect to commerce he believed the best thing they
could do for the increase of Christian morality was
to allow commerce to take its own way, and trust
to the civilising influence which all commerce
must have, rather than interfere violently by fiscal re-
gulations with its accustomed course. In the first place,
they would offend all those natives against whom they
declared, by these resolutions. The empire of Brazil
and the kingdom- of Spain would naturally be offended,
and they would no doubt be induced to indulge in re-
taliating tariffs, in order to meet these resolutions.—
(Hear, hear.) That in itself was a reason for their not
attempting the legislatien which they now proposed.
How could they know the exact state of the countries
for which they new proposed to legislate ? They were
about to legislate for Java. Now, he had understood
from accounts which he had read of the state of society
in Java, that in that country the sugar cultivation was
a compulsory cultivation. The 'cultivators were com-
pelled to produce a certain quantity of sugar, and to
dispose of it at a certain price. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman might, perhaps, contradict him, and might be
better informed on the state of legislation in Java than
he was. But was not the fact of their ignorance as to
the state of affairs in Java reason sufficient for their ab-
staining'from legislation?—(Cheers.) They were in an
equal state of ignorance with regard to affairs in Ma-
nilla. Then, with regard to Puerto Rico, he had
raison to believe that, with the exception of a
small part of that island, slavery was not the pre-
vailing practice. Yet sugar, the produce of Puerto Rico,
was to be refused, while sugar, the produce of Java,
was to be received. Our Custom.house officers
said," We are so satisfied. with the state of society in
Java, that we will admit the produce of that island, but
we are so' shocked at the existence of slavery in Puerto
Rico, that we will • refuse to trade with that country."
Now what was the state of our trade with those slave-
labour countries ? Cuba and Brazil were induced to
grow sugar by slave labour in greater quantities than
was sufficient to provide for their own wants. Why did
they grow this sugar ? In order to provide for them-
selves various articles of manufacture' of which they
stood in need. From whence did they procure these
manufactures ?- Why, from Lancashire and Yorkshire ;
therefore they were holding out an inducement to the
people of •Cuba and Brazil to continue slavery, by fur-
nishing them with the manufactures of Lancashire and
Yorkshire.—(Cheers.) They'sent them these manufac-
tures, and they were paid fbr them in sugar bi but they
would not consume that sugar in this country—they
said it was a crime. How, then, did they dispose of it ?
Why it so happened that they took tallow and hemp
from Russia, which could not be paid for in English
manufactures, because Russia was not prepared to take
them; therefore they sent this sugar, the produce of
slave labour, to Russia, and took the hemp andtallow of
Russia in return for these slave-grown
.productions.
The Right Hon. Gentleman protested against directly
importing sugar from Cuba, yet Russia freely imported
such commodity, and we as freely imported Russian
tallow and hemp, and gave Russia those manufactures
in return which we would otherwise send directly to
Cuba. The Right Hon. Gentleman talked about our
consciences being free. Upon my word (said the Noble
Lord) the Right Hon. Gentleman, finding it very easy
to reconcile theie things to his conscience, he had not
any objection at all to slave-grown sugar being carried
into Russia; nay, he was ready to assist such traffic, and
give Ruasia our manufactures, but the importation
directly of slave-grown sugar shocked him. This seemed
a very thin veil indeed.—(Hear, hear.) He very much
doubted whether, if the Right Hon. Baronet, instead of
being a stout Protestant, had been a Roman Catholic,
'that his confessor would think these pretexts a sufficient
excuse In 1840 we sent to Cuba 863,520 L worth of
ourproduce in manufactures ;_in 1831, 835,0001. worth ;in
1842, 958,000 L worth. And this in addition to what
was sent by other channels. To Brazil we sent, 'in 1840,
2,635,00 N. worth ; in 1841, 2,560,5,54 L worth ; in 1842,
only 1,650,0004 worth of our manufactures. All the
returns proved that all the time the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was declaiming so earnestly against slavery, we
encouraging the slave trade. But then the Right
Hon. Gentleman retreated to another argument—an
argument which had been formerly used in
this House,
weuse, did an
not ourselvesdwhichbea
consumettempted
sugar,
invalidate,ugayetwhen wthaet
admitted 90,000 tons, the produce it was supposed of
these three favoured countries, that that 90,000 tons
being substratted from the consumption of Europe, will
be replaced by other produce—the produce of slavery; and
that we were thereby, indirectly, to thatextent encourag-
ing slavery. The Right Hon. Gentleman said nothing
in the least had- diminished the force of that argument.
He said the sugar of Cuba was very good, and admitted
eSivaemthose 90,000
encouragement
that slave-labour in this colony was very expensive.
•We took from Jav,:,,eMceartnialilnal,y a
dn dd
to slaevotettetlroabnp oouutt rt.,
of- —0
dr (weHpa
aer
dra rt
tons ; ,and, so far,
'and protection
pwriasuctillpele? oseitirtawdetbn
allegations, which certainly appeared to 'savour very
9thfhroralse hear.)
lifeusstaoalf
much of hypocrisy, It was better to admit foreign'
sugar on the game scale of differential 'duties as
W 4 . ;Omitted free-labour sugar. He would sup-
pose, for the sake of argument, that some great
benefit would be produced—that great good would be
done to the world by this distinction : that might be a
• reason for uutking it. But when we saw no practical
coasaquenced follow from this line of policy—when, the
,distinction proved to be merelyin words, he really could
not see why the Government of this great commercial
country should persevere in a policy so unwise. ' The
Right Hon, Gentleman proceeded to speak of America
and ether countries; but he thought the Right Hon.
Gentleman's statements in this respect not quite accu-
rate.• America admitted the sugar of Cuba and the
United States. What' guarantee was there that America
did•-not send the sugar' of Brazil and Cuba into this
country instead of their own. The Right Holt. Gentle-
, man seemed to depend a good deal on what WAS termed

--
certificates Of origin—he really did not think that much
dependence could be placed on those certificates.
He did not think they would be any better -
guarantee against the sugar of Cuba or Brazil
than they were at the time of the war between this •
country and prance, when it was a notorious fact that
we smuggled our goods into foreign countries, and they
theirs into ours, by means of forged certificates. Those'
best acquainted with the sugar trade did not seem to
have the same confidence in these certificates as the
Right Ron. Baronet—those gentlemen seemed to have""
very. little less apprehension in 1844 than in 1841, when".
theAifferential duty of twelve, instead of ten shillings,
was proposed by the Government of that day. The
great objection to any change of duty then was, that the
great experiment of the abolition of slavery had not bad '
a fair trial—that it was necessary to ascertain whether •
free labour could supply the place of slave labour. Had
so much progress been made in the experiment of free
trade labour in 1844, that they were not afraid of a
change? The same differential duty thought sufficient
for Java, Manilla, and the United States, should be ap-
plied to Cuba and the Brazils. He thought that a pro._
hibitory duty of 635., as it ought to have been abolished
in 1841, ought to be abolished now ; and he would
give his reasons. The supply of sugar from 1831 had
not been such, he believed, as to enable the people of
this country to consume it to anything like the extent
they would under other circumstances have done. In
1831, 1832, and 1833, there was an average cc:insuli:l-
- of from 191bs. to 201b9. of sugar per held en the '
whole population, whilst in subsequent years the ave-
rage had become so low as 171b5., and even 161bs. per"
head. This reason alone seemed very powerful in favour
of a reduction of the duties. In 1843 there was little'
more than 171bs. of sugar per head consumed, whilst in
1831, with a smaller population, there were 191b5.--
(Hear, hear.) The consumption of tea had wonder-
fully increased since the commencement of the present
century, but sugar had not increased in proportion.
Considering the increase of population, the consumption
of spirits, and beer had rather diminished among the
great consuming classes, whilst in tea and coffee the in
crease had been very great. The consumption of e•offee
in 1801 was 7,851,0001b5. ; in 1841, 27,298,3421 ha. The
consumption of tea in 1801 was 20,227,0001b.5.; in 1841,
36,675,0001b5. In sugar, the consumption, in 1831, was
3,639,0001b5. ; in 1841, 4,657,0001ba. There was three
times the amount of coffee consumed in 1841, as oatn.
pared with 1831, whilst the increase in the consumption
of sugar had been so trifling. The increase in the pqou,
lotion during this period had been from 8 to 14.
The
experiment. of Indian labour in the Mauritius had been
tried, and had been found sucoosafhl ; and there had not
bi>en the same objection to the introduction of such
labour asformerly. Lord Auckland, who was formerly op-
posed to it, thought now that, underproper restrictions, it
might be successful. Tho Noble Lord (the Secretary
1,4. the Colonies) had made some relaxations concerning
African labour, and ho did not think they could go much
farther in that respect. A reduction of the sugar duties,
ought to be made ; but it should be effeeted on the ordi-
nary principles by which trade was generally governed,
and they should not, merely for the sake of bolstering
up
-established
oiestulh7:lprr
the consistency of some of the members of the Cabinet,
)
itdtonhrneyopleysaa_e: iotfunfurrootoohumufir
placingt,ohho
w e un 1 r t.
colonial ing
erelniacayts
oobeofmhcmoinmedrmohieuirmlcoluneureo!
altdustuiegas
sugar
hsuurthre o(nr, leveloard
Rwui
s.
sell) would not go quite so far. in a new state of things
where no duty had been imposed, it might be safe
to do so ; but, under existing circumn ees, he thought a differential duty should made n favour
of our own celeriles. After some explanation as to the
cause why he had not given earlier notice of the motion,
he was about to make, the Noble Lord laid the following - proposition before the House :—" That, instead of the
duty now payable on brown sad Muscavado sugar, the
produce of any foreign country be admitted at a duty of
thirty-four shillings per cwt.' He believed the Right
Hon. Gentleman sufficiently possessed the confidence of
the House to enable him to carry almost any proposition ;
but,'_nevertheless, he should feel it his duty to take the
sense Of the House upon his proposal. Free competition
should be the rule. Unrestricted competition
in trade, Lord Grenville stated, was the straight and
simple line of wisdom, The Right Hon. Baronet had
himself admitted the truth of this doctrine, and when-
ever we altered our policy, whether we advanced in a
short or a wide step, it should be in this direction.
If they wanted duties for revenue, why then they should
impose them; but as for legislating where to buy and to
se , the public themselves were the best judges of that.
He thought that if they were to prescribe in what
markets the people should trade, it would inevitably
cramp the industry and impair the wealth of the terna-
ry. That remark was not needless; for there had at
this time been issued papers offering premiums from
persons usually supporting the Government, for the best
essays on protection for the agricultural interest.—(The
Noble Lord then read an extract from a speech delivered
on the 17th of February, 1783, by Lord Shelburne, who
was at that time a Minister of the Crowe. That Noble
Lord reprobated monopoly as being always injurious--
as preventing rivalry, which was the greatest stimulus
to trade, and the most important instrument of human
improvement. No nation was more bound to oppose
monopoly than this country, which stood as it were be-
tween the old world and the new, and which having
more capital, more trade, and more resources, than any
other nation on earth, should meet its rivals on any part
of the globe, content with fair competition, and
asking nothing more.) Such was the opinion of
a Minister of the Crown sixty years ago—(Cheers)r--
and we had not advanced much since.—(Renewed
cheers.) They were creating a new monopoly of a
stronger kind, in which they declared to various nations
of the world, that they would not trade with thews
because they disapproved of their institutions. It was bat
a short time since that the proposition of free trade was
negatived by but a few votes in America. If this coun-
try were to set the example to other nations it would
soon be followed.—(Hear, hear.) But whilst we sus-
tained the system of protective and prohibitory duties
whilst they excluded the corn and the timber and other
products of those nations, how could we lecture them
upon the advantages of an enlightened commercial
policy ?—(llear, hear.) He (Lord J. Russell) had lately
read a letter from the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs to the Minister of a German State, which con-
veyed a lecture upon free trade which could have very
little weight coming from the authority which main-
tained destructive duties here.—(clear, hear.) Let us
adopt true principles for ourselves; and when other
nations should see that England had taken a wise course
and had benefited by it, they would not be slow to follow
the example. If so, we should see men in authority in.
stead of devising schemes for applying schemes to
render war more destructive, employing their talents to
direct steam, so as to make peace more beneficial, and
uniting in one brotherhood all the nations of the world.
Mr. GLADSTONE would not imitate the Noble
Lord, and wander into topics unconnected with the sub-
ject before the Committee. He would -not go into the
questions of iron, and wood, and corn. He thought that
it was plain that the Noble Lord was induced to intro-
duce those subjects by the poverty, of his objections to
the measure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The
Noble Lord would find that the letter of the Foreign
Secretary to the Prussian Ministry was founded upon
the arguments contained in an article in the Edinburgh
Review, which was supposed to have the approbation of
the Noble Lord himself. It would be, indeed, a matter
of grave censure upon the Government it they adhered
in 1844 to the measures which they thought, under very
different circumstances, necessary in 1841. In the latter
year the West Indies were going through an experi-
ment, which rendered it imperative that the Govern-
merit should take no step to embarras those colonies..
But now five years had passed since the experiment
was began, and although the difficulties of the colonies
were not altogether passed over, yet it had been
now evident that the permanent maintenance of the
sugar duties on the present principle was not necessary
to their support. The Right Hon. Gentleman then went
into a detail of the different values of sugars (Muscovado.
clayed and refined) in the West India Islands, in Cuba.
and in Java, contending that if the duty on all unrefined
sugars was to be 345. per cent. an advantage a
would
uruuldbet.
given to Cuba, which produced and exported
fined sugars superior to real Muscovado. -TheNoble Lord
had no right to taunt the Government with want of
consistency, for he had himself, in the period between
1840 and 1841, changed his own opinions on this ques-
tion. The price of sugar had in last year considerably
risen, and that rise was a good reason for an alteration
of the law. The rise had been nearly 3s. per cwt., and
w would be altered this year.
veiling opinion that the law would
the • • increasingwould have been greater if it had not been for the pre-
Taking, therefore, into consideration
de-
sire of the country to consume those articles which hold
a place between luxuries and necessaries, he thought the
Government would have been wrong if they had not
taken advantage of the increase of price to alter the law.
The Noble Lord protested against the introduction of a
new mode of prohibitory and distinctive duties. But
in 1841, the Noble Lord, in the case of the duties upon
sugar, said that it was necessary to make a distinction
between those States which encouraged the slave trade
and those which had nothing to do with slavery. But
the Noble Lord was pleased to be witty on another
point, and said, his Right Hon. Friend was introduc-
ing religion into the custom-house, erecting pulpits in
the long-room, and making the land-waiters
preachers of anti-slavery doctrines. Perhaps this
Noble Lord would say, that they should not introduce
religion into the ships of war, and erect pulpits upon
quarter-decks, or make their captains preachers ; but ill
truth the Noble Lord had made our captains of men-of-
war preachers of anti-slavery doctrines, and preachers test
a pretty effect to the slavers in their passage between
Africa and Br'azil. The policy of the present Govern§
meat was in consonance with that steadily pursued in
this country for a very long time past. It was impossi-
ble to apply fixed rules to the varying character of
human affairs. The Noble Lord began by alluding to
the state of Java, and objected that there could be no
security that the produce of that island would not_be
.1 Java
reduced by slave labour. But he (Mr. Gladstone) n
be-
lieved
that there was a state of society
whichwith would enable him to ascertain
or
not,
ease whether the produce was slave-groan
the roduc
was free that rent was paid in proportion toproduces
and
of a certain number of days
lie believed that this was made out that bat; in Java
and it was paid at the rate _ _
the
occupation or of statute labour. So far as regarded
b he
compelled to hold lands againstbut
'if
Java was this, that no mats
held land,
wasit
hew
stateas
his w
boofutnhdintgsocultivate it. Such was nnivere
sally the state of things in Java, and if a party cultivated
theland he was free to quit it when ho pleased. lie
'believed, however, that it was the duty of those who
held land under the Government to have a certain hum--
ber of females on the land • he ought, however, to say.
perhaps, that there was a domestic species of slavery VIP.
Java, but that slavery was now upon the point of deeo.l.
.;--.(Hear, hear.) So far as regarded this count tlf , be
could not see the difficulties the Noble Lord had; ded.
Siam had been adverted to ; the trade bettsvee'n that
country and this was carried on not with m*ReVants, but
with the Monarch himself, and they had 00" refore but

vary little knowledge of the. interior of the country; and
it was therefore impossible to say whether the
growth of sugar in that country was produced
by free labour or not ; but in Java, Manilla,
and China they bad sugar the produce of free
labour. The Noble Lord then adverted to topics that
always raised a cheer in that House ; he said, why not
send the sugar of Brazil to Russia, and bring in ex-
change fir it some of the produce of that country. A
great deal had been said about cotton, tobacco, and
coffee. Now, with respect to those articles, none of them
Could be fairly said or considered to be the perpetuation
of the slave trade. The cultivation of coffee could be
carried on by free labour where sugar could not. If the
motion of the Noble Lord was adopted, the result would
be the extension of sugar cultivation, and also the ex-
tension of slavery. The effect of the present plan, be
believed, would be principally visible in the sugar of
Java and Manilla ; the plan would operate as a positive
premium on the extension of the cultivation of free .
sugar in those countries. An encouragement would be
given to their sugar in the first place ; but, in the second
place, it would tell with permanent effect on the rise in
the value of free-labour sugar generally, on account of
its increased admissibility. With respect to the ex-
tent to which it might stimulate the cultivation
of sugar in the East Indies, he believed they knew too
little of the resources of that country to form any esti-
mate upon the point ; its immense productive powers
were as yet undeveloped. But, altogether, he did not
anticipate that the increased quantity of sugar that
would be brought into this country, in consequence of
this alteration, would exceed 20,000 tons, and this
quantity subtracted from the general markets of the
world would not, he thought, much tend to raise the
general price of the article. The Noble Lord had dwelt
upon the probable fraudulent introduction of sugar from
America ; but he thought there was not much danger of
this being the case. The American grower was not
subjected to any duty in his own country ; but, if he
sent his sugar to this country, he had to pay his duty.
Again, the price of sugar in New York had been for the
last few years about thirty-five shillings, and in this
country it had been less ; it would not, therefore, be the
interest of the American to send his sugar from New
Orleans to Liverpool, instead of from New Orleans to
New York. Again, there was no class in America that
did not clamour f ir protection. In this country some
were indifferent to it, and some were opposed ; but
in America all were anxious for it. And this was
also a treat political question. The bond of the Ame-
rican Union wee not so close or so strong as not to be
affected by the result of this question on the slave
states. The great mass of the sugar consumed in Ame-
rica
was grown in the state of Louisiana, and he thought
that nothing wes so improbable as that America, while
recognising the h'gli protective principle, would allow
this single state to become the victim, for the sake of
introducing the principl ! of free trade in the single ar-
ticle of sugar. The Noble Lord had said that the Go-
vernment should have given greaterencouragement to the
introduction of free labour in the West Indies ; he did not
understand that the Noble Lord had charged the
Government with any neglect or want of vigilance els
to the introduction of such labour. lie conceded that
the West Indies were suffering under an accumulation of
disadvantsges, and that, for the most part, the planters
had been losers. He knew estates that, in the year 1840,
when Englund-was paying what might be called famine
prices fel. their sugar, left their owners minus to a con-
siderable emount. lie did not deny that the position
of the West Indies was one of very great difficulty
lie could only say that the question should be considered
With a view to the interest of the West Indies on the
one hand, and the circumstances of this country on the
other. lie would say that it was not in the power of the
Legislature of this cotintry to bring the cultivation of
the colony into a sound state, even if the duty on sugar
was maintained for twenty years.—(Cheers.) It must
be brought about by the introduction of new labourers,
an altered system of maintaining them, and the substi-
tution of respotisible resident proprietors or tenants for
at sentee proprietors.—(Hear, hear.) That the West
Itel'es had a crisis to pass through he hrd no doubt, and
all they could expect from the British Legislature was
to aid them as much as they could. That aid they now
proposed to lend them. They proposed to lay a tax of
61. per cwt. on foreign free-grown sua ar, excluding
sugar from slave countries. That was a duty of 50 per
cent. on the value of the commodity. But if they had
'to deal with the West ledies alone, he would not be a
'poesy to the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend. After
the changes 'which took place in other countries—after
the tariff of 1842, and the other changes which have
taken place in the present year, he thought
Government would be open to the imputation
or showing undue favour to a particular class
were they to put a duty of 10 per cent. on foreign
sugar, the growth of free labour, as a protection to sugar
grown in the West Indies.—(Hear, hear.) The West
Indies had suffered most severely by the Act of Emanci-
pation, but that interest was treated with some conside-
' ration when it got a protectien a quul to 50 per cent. The
Noble Lord said that they did not establish perfect con-
sistency in their legislation on this matter. His answer
was that it was better to apply a good principle when it
was practicable, and also that the proposition of the Go-
vernment would stand in a favourable light as contrasted
with the proposition of the Noble Lord. It was not
only inconsistent in an extreme degree, but in a manner
incapable of tolerable explanation, that they should go
to considerable expense in employing a naval force on
the coast of Africa, but even shed blood for the purpose
oacapturing slave vessels going to the Brazils, and at
the same time give a voluntary stimulous to the slave
• trade by encouraging the growth of slave-grown sugar.
There was, therea,re, a great practical difference be-
• tween the treasure of the Government and the proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord, as would be tested to-morrow
by the price or lit azilian or Cuba sugar, if that proposis
• tam were ceirli d. The Noble Lord had charged them
with hypocrisy. That was one of the worst charges
that could be made against any men, because
it was one of the worst vices.—(Hear, hear.) He
would not deny it, because if true it would not be the
' less if he denied it, and if it were not- he was sure the
country and posterity would do them justice. They
could have no personal motives in this matter, and
their views were in accordance with those of Dr.
Lushington, Sir F. Buxton, Mr. Clarkson, and Mr.
Sturges whose opinions were entitled to so much con-
sideration on the subject It was true they would ex-
' elude the produce of slave labour of every description;
but, because they admitted other articles, the produce of
slave' labour, it was practically no reason why they
should admit slave-grown sugar. Looking to the in-
terest of the West India colonies, the necessities of the
country, and the discouragement of the slave trade, he
thought the measure of the Government the hest that
could be devised, and he left it with confidence to the
Judgment of the House of Commons.—(Cheers.)
Mr. L A BOITCHE RE commenced by defending himself
and the late Government from the charge of inconsistency
which was brought against them, for which he need
only refer to the emphatic declaration , of the late
• Lord Sydenham, who, when Fri sident of the Board of
Trade, declared that either at or before the termination
of the treaty with the Brazils, it would be the duty of
the House to consider the question of the sugar duties,
foreign and donaestic. He (Mr. Labouchere) adhered
to that declaration, when he was waited on in Liver-
pool by persons connected with the West Indies. And
midi regard , to the consistency of the present Govern-
, meet, he muse say, • if he felt any resentment towards
them for the handle they made of the West India interest
to turn out the late Administration, he was amply re-
venged by seeing the Ministers of this great commercial
country in the face of that country and the whole world
compelled to make such a proposition to the House as
' they now Made, and to defend it by such' argu-
ments as lie had heard.—(Hear, hear.) That it
was a novel and unprecedented proposition no person
could deny. and the arguments used in support of the
measure were in perfect harmony with it, for they were
totally novel and unprecedented likewise. The queStion
was tine of such vast importance in every respect that a
settlement of it was of first-rate consequence. And it
was because this measure was fraught with uncertainty
and was rotten in principle, because it was not a final
settlement of the question, that he objected to it.
Ife would suppose, for the sake of argument, that no
doer would be opened to fraud by the measure ; but
admitting that, he was prepared to maintain that they
incurred- a positive and a certain evil for the sake of a
benefit of a very substantial nature. To begin with the
evils 'would be inflicted by this measure, the Go-
vernment might say that they were right in doing those
things for a moral object ; but no man would contend
that it was right to denounce, by their commercial
policy, such great countries as the Brazils—the West
India Islands, which were some of their most valuable
customers.—(Hear, hear.) No person would say that
they ought to hazard such evils except on the most sub-
stantial and positive grounds.—(Hear, hear.) In the
first place it was impossible to deny what the evil com-
plained of by their merchants who traded with the
Brazils was. It was this; that they could not procure
direct returns for the goods which they exported to
Brazils.—(Hear, hear.) To continue such a state of
things was a great evil ; but it was more—they raised
Up hostile feelings in those countries against them, which
mast tie fraught with fatal consequences. It would lead
to hostile commercialdegislation against thim. True, if
these countries consulted reason Only they would not
legislate on such absurd grounds ; but men were actuated
by resentment as much as by reason, and they would
feel that an affront was put upon them by this coTary,.
and their legislation would be directed accordingly.
miy more, he really believed that this principle of non-
interrerence with these countries would arm the feelines
of those countries aagainstaithem every' day more and
more, to prevent the effects of that influence which he
hoped this country would exercise everywhere in behalf
of the negroes, which would be a source of' greater
calamity to them than this paltry measure of excluding
slavegrown sugar would du them any good. He agreed
with the Right lion. Gentleman who had just sat down,
that, they must guard themselves against overrating the
value a the change of duty, for that no great influx, of
foreign sugar could be expected. His statement was as
low as 20,000 tons, Everything of this sort was no
doubt vague ; and he (Mr. Labouchere) would be inclined
to, put it higher. But it was important when they came to
consider this question, to find how far the measure of the
Governruentavould tend to discourage sugar the produce
of slave labour. In his opinion that discouragement would
amount to a shade, or rather the shadow of a shade.
The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that the free-
- labour sugar prOduced in the East was less than 20,000
tons. If that cantle to England, the surplus would be
exported to Germany and other countries, and the price
of free-labour sugar in London and Liverpool would be
governed by its price in those countries. The Right
lion, Gentleman admitted that this was true in the
main ;. but then he said there would still be a shade of
, advantage in favour of free-labour sugar. Was it, really
starcialtnoyfeievtillysap e
incur na that they were prepared to
hear.) He thought even
a at; ade was tee strong expression.I He believed that
a tot., of Manilla'sugar and
tonaf Cuba sugar would,
' r Bill bad' passed ~b
be found very nearly of the
aerie value. ,The consequence would be, that the moment

this sugar was withdrawn from the general markets of I,
the world, the vacuum would be filled up by sugar from '
Cuba and Brazil. Taking the whole, or very nearly the
whole, of the sugar produced by free labour throughout
the world, he admitted that there might be some W.? ght
in the argument ; but, inasmuch as they could only
take a part of it, and the rest must be
exported abroad, it was idle to deny that by their mea
sure the Government were encouraging the cultivation
of sugar in Cuba and Brazil as completely as they would
do by admitting sugar from those countries. The Right
Hon. Gentleman went on to use a very singular argu-
ment when lin said that, at all events, their consciences
would be clear.—(Hear, hear.) If they went into a
grocer's shop and inquired the price of sugar grown in
Cuba and sugar grown in Manilla, that might be a very
good consideration ; but before they asked the people
of this country to subject themselves to the evils of
non-intercourse, they were bound to show them that
some practical discouragement would thereby be given
to the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) He had hitherto dis-
cussed this question as if it would not open a door to
fraud. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, had disposed of that question in a very
summary way. He was surprised that any one could
express a doubt that fraud would not take place. Now
he (Mr. Labouchere) did not share in that persua-
sion, and he believed it was not shared by the mercantile
community of this country.—(Hear, hear, from the Hon.
Member for Dover.) His Hon. Friend the Member for
Dover, who was connected with the West Indies,
cheered that observation. He was glad to find
hie opinion confirmed by so high an authority.
Even the certificates of our own Custom-house
officers were not to be depended on with entire
confidence ; bat to talk of certificates of sugar
coming from New Orleans, signed by the grower, the
shipper, and the American authorities, as properly cer-
tified, was to him utterly incomprehensible. He be-
lieved that the value of a Mississippi certificate would be
very much the same as the value of a Mississippi bond.—
( Laughter.) He was inclined to think that the air would be
found equally prejudicial to the honesty of both those
documents.—(Laughter.) He defied the shrewdest mer-
chant to tell what would be the precise effect of this
measure. He felt convinced at least of this, that,
founded as it was upon false and untenable principles, it
would produce nothing but mischief to our commercial
interests.—(Hear,) He agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that the character of this country should stand
clear upon this subject of the slave trade, He had
never been disposed to sneer at, or to treat with disre-
spect, the solemn and sacred feelings which pervaded
this country on the subject of the long injuries of the
negro race.—(Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that the
conduct of this country in that respect was one of the
brightest pages in her history. She might have made
mistakes; she might have suffered disappointments;
but, nevertheless, her conduct had been actuated by that
which lay at the root of England's greatness—her moral
and religious feelings.—(Cheers.) But the more he re-
flected on that subject, the more he felt the importance of
exhibiting this country to the world, not enly unconnected
with hypocrisy, but with folly; and he very much feared
that foreigners would form the same opinion of us which
our own merchants did in reference to this question.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed they would not stand any
higher in the eyes of the world, for having embarked
in a course which every man, woman, and child, who
considered the subject would be able at once to see did
not accomplish its own objects.—(Hear, hear.) He
I would not go at any length into the question, what
might be expected from the United States ; but he
agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, in doubting
whether the inducement to supply the English market
with sugar under the scale of duties proposed by the
Government would greatly affect or modify their policy.
—The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from
letter addressed by Mr. Innes to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in support of this view.—The Right Hon.
Gentleman had adverted to the effect of this measure
upon the West Indies. He (Mr. Labouchere) had never
thought that they were absolved from their duty to the
%Vest Indies by the payment of twenty millions for the
emancipation of the slaves. He could not vote for the
amendment of the Hon. Member for Bristol, because he
believed it would have the effect of imposing a larger
differential duty on the people of this country ; but, if
the Government had proposed to reduce the duty
on foreign sugar to thirty shillings, and that on
colonial sugar to 225., he, for one, should have rejoiced
at such a proposal, and he believed the Noble Lord the
Member for the City of London would have given it his
support. He really thought that in the present position
of the revenue the Government might safely have made
such a proposal. He must say, in conclusion, that not-
withstanding the opposition made to the proposals of the
late Government, he did hope that when the Right Hon.
Gentleman had, as a Minister of the Crown, to consider
this question in all its details, he would not have pur-
sued a course, the benefits of which were, according to
his own showing, of a doubtful and visionary cha-
racter. He had hoped that he would have cast po-
litical consistency to the winds, and that he (Mr.
Labouchere) would have had the pleasure of supporting
him in those great commercial reforms which were
needed by the country.
Mr. P. M. STEWART said he had hoped that when
the question of emancipation had been settled they
would have been fairly dealt with. There seemed to be
much uncertainty and ignorance on the part of the Go-
vernment with respect to this measure. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, had
Nt a question to him (Mr. Stewart), whether if the
est Indies were to be supplied fully with free labourers,
he would propose that the Government should maintain
a differential duty of even 10s. per cwt. His answer to
this was, that they had been kept out of a supply of
free labour for ten years, and now, at the eleventh hour,
a measure like this was proposed. Was this fair treat-
ment ? They crippled a man, and reduced him to a
state of starvation, and then threw him into an arena
of competition. He said that if they had prepared the
West Indies five years ago fur this change, and if they had
then given them the supply of labour which was now
contemplated, that would have of itself settled the ques-
tion of differential duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
the President of the Board of Trade,'was mistaken in his
estimates of the produce of sugar under free labour and
slave labour in the West Indies. The average of the
five years preceding 1883 was 201,777 tons, and the
average of the three years after free labour was entirely
established was only 107,000 tons. To show the depre-
ciation in the value of West India property he had pro-
vided himself with a comparative statement of the cost
and produce of an estate ten years ago, and at the pre-
sent time. Ten years ago the average cost of the pre.
dime on the estate was 5,4051., the crops were 367 tons,
the cost of production being fourteen guineas per ton.
This year the average expenditure was 6,5001., the
cropS 264 tons, the cost of production being 24/. 12s. per
ton. This difference had arisen from the payment of
high wages, and from a reduced and inadequate supply
of labour.—(Hear, hear.) These were the grounds
upon which the West Indian colonists rested their
opposition to this measure. When slavery was
abolished, this country promised the colonists of the
West Indies a supply of labour, but that supply never
came. Now, however, when the Government disco-
vered their error, simultaneously with the supply of
labour, did they throw open the West Indies to com-
petition with the rest of the world ? It was unfair—un-
English—to treat them in this manner. Had there been
an interval of two or three years afforded, and during
that time a supply of free labour provided, the present
measure would, have been received very differently by
the West India proprietors. Under existing circum-
stances, he contended that a great hardship had been
thrown upon the colonists. It was said that the West
Indies were an integral part of Britain; why, then, were
the colonists not treated as British subjects ? The
West Indian planter was, to all intents and purposes, a
landed proprietor, and why should he not be treated as
one ? His produce, however, was debarred from com-
ing into this country. They were well aware
that rum was almost excluded from Scotland,
and Ireland. The duty on native spirits was 2s. Bd. per
gallon in Ireland, and in Scotland it was 3s. Bd., while
the duty on rum was 95. 4d. In England the duty on
the native spirit was 7s. 10d. per gallun, and ruin was
9s. 4d., and the consequence was, that the consumption
of rum in England was one-third of the whole consump-
tion of spirits, one hundred-and-twelfth of the whole
consumption in Scotland, and in Ireland it was only a
six-hundreth part of the whole consumption of spirits in
the country, so that, in fact, rum was excluded. He
thought the proposition of the Noble Lord on the whole
a salutary one, and was of opinion that it was preferable
to admit sugar directly from foreign countries than in
the roundabout way in which its growth was at present
encouraged.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HUME agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down that the best interests of the colonies
had been sacrificed by the policy of the Govern-
ment. This Government, as well as the former one,
was much to blame for not providing a proper supply
of labour. The question had been laid before Lord
Glenelg, but he had taken no effective step. The Right
Hon. Baronet had taken up the question, but in a manner
unstatesmanlike and impolitic. He felt certain that the
Government measure would not give satisfaction ;
there was no security in it, and this meddling sort of
policy, which proposed a great deal and did nothing,
would take away confidence and prevent the investment
of capital in the West Indies.—(Cries of "Hear,
hear.") The consumption of tea and coffee hadgreatly
increased since the commencement of the present
century, but sugar had not at all increased in proportion.
Those specious arguments in favour of the abolition of
slavery were now seen through by the country, and
there was a general and a just feeling abroad that we
had no right to dragoon other countries into our mode
of action. They should be left to think and act for
themselves on the question of slavery, as well as on
every other question. What would we have said
twenty-five years ago, if any other country attempted
to force upon us anti-slavery doctrines? Why, we
should have indignantly rejected them. And as for the
idea of excluding slave grown sugar by certificates of
was
—(Hear,
gaarhT;nithing more or less than a perfect farce.
partsT
wa nh oe
tof fact cs towue
well
trade
eo
rwttoeoruet
our sugar
sacrificingissu gana rti.s directlylavethr ye
from Cuba and Brazil, as
trade with those countries
which directly encouraged its growth?—(Hear.)
opposite.
Mr. T. BARING did not quite agree in thebp,peitjusticen s
an-
ticipated o f
the arguments advanced by Hon. Gentlemen
He thought it would not be so difficult as land
ticipated to prevent the importation of slave-grown
sugar into this country by the certificates of origin; nor
did he think that there need be any apprehension of our
importing slave-grown sugar from Java or Manilla, be.
cause the distance between these countries and Cuba and
Brazil was too great to admit of their importing sugar
from them with the prospect of exporting it into
this conntry afterwards. China was not, as had
been stated, an exporter of sugar. He believed
it was at present an importer.—(Hear, hear.)
Ire had never heard that there was any arrangement by
which such an evasion of the American Customs' regu-
-1 ration's could be effected as the Noble lord, the Member*
for London, supposed. He did net think that if Ha-

vannah sugar were imported into Louisiana, and had
paid a duty of 125., that amount would be returned, and
the sugar be allowed to be exported. The countries
VS Ilia produced sugar by free labour would have the
great stimulus to production which was-well known to
be given by open markets, whereas the slave countries
would be confined to the markets to which they now
had access. In Brazil one-half, or two-thirds of the
population were slaves, who were paid no wages, and
had few wants above the demand for the merest neces-
saries of life. If the trade of this country with Brazil
should be increased, the goods which the Brazilians
would receive in return for their produce would consist
chiefly of such articles as could be used in the purehase
of more slaves for the extended cultivation of the land ;
whereas the goods received from us in exchange for
the produce of free labour, would be purchased by the
labourers out of their wages, and for the increase of
their own comforts. He should, however, have thought
it more advisable if this proposition of the Government
had been deferred until the whole subject of the sugar
duties had been reviewed, and the question bad been
decided whether our system of direct taxation should be
continued and extended. The Hon. Gentleman con-
cluded by stating that he never gave a more conscien-
tious vote than that which he was now about to give
against the proposal of the Noble Lord, the Member for
the city of London.
After some observations from Dr. Bowring, Sir John
Harmer, and Mr. Gladstone,
Mr. EWART rose amid loud cries of " Withdraw,"
and " Divide."—Seeing the feeling of the House he
would postpone the motion of which he had given notice
till the bringing up of the report.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw ; the House
divided, and the numbers were—
For the resolutions
Fur the amendment
Majority for the resolutions
The resolutions were then put and agreed to, and the
house having resumed, the report was ordered to be
brought up on Wednesday.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.
The Ecclesiastical Courts Bill was postponed till Friday
next.

THE POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
Sir J. GRAHAM moved for the following Select
Committee on union workhouses (Ireland) :—Sir Edwd.
Knatchbull, 'Mr. Loch, Lord Eliot, Mr. Ord, Sir Robert
Ferguson, Mr. Vesey, Sir Henry Winston Barron, Mr.
Shaw, Lord Courtenay, Mr. French, Mr. Bellew, Mr
More O'Ferrall, Lord Claud Hamilton, Captain Jones,
and Mr. Bramston.