The Sun.
London, England, 1826-03-04 00:00:00

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auction he moved—" That a Select Committee be appointed to dence, by timely.measures of relief, onginatuig with Govern.
examin :
Colonel DAVIES. explained he had'acceded to the
into the whole Military. Expenditure of the country. ment.
Mr. Ilito UOilltra seconded the motion, propriety
Lard PA LiMERS'I'ON said that Ai -it appeared_ that the of granting the Army Estimates of last year.
Mr. Hula' believedwhole of for 's
only reason the-Hon. Gentleman opposed the Spe.aker's leaving . ,that the
the Chair, was in order to substitute his own motion for.another service of the present year might be safely reduced one half. He
had been 1 • to I the observations f the 'i' bl
Committee, he shoUld-content himself with merely stating that' nippy tear o . 1 o eLord,
it had hitherto been the practice of the House to examine. i
athe who had so accurately stated the motives of Alinisters in wish-
subject
in Committee of the whole Hotter, rather than in alog for so extensive an establishment, Ilethen proceeded to
Select Committee. This, he thought, in itself, Was a sufficient . censure, in severe terms, the unfortunate military mania and
answer to the Hon. Centlernan for the present ; the more so, its passion for ,large establisliments which prevailed, and the ex.
he , wonlit haseseat in his power, if he pleased, to repeat in the pences of which fell entirely Upon the middle and lower class of
receiving, under the name of Conunis.
Committee any part or the whole Of the objections-on each of so. ciet the upper class
"of another, .much t} leypaid. I .
the proposed Votes When put in the Committee. stone, or one thing or as as t ley t the
The motion of Colonel Da.vine, after a few observations from House meant to act as honest men, and keep faith with the
Mr. C. Pr I, it aat, was negatived without a division, and the public creditor, they would see what could be done to keep the
house went into the cornminve of Supply. • expenditure of the country within reasonable bounds. The
Honourable Member then referred to the example of the
i A RMY ESTIMATES. - King of Bavaria. The Noble Lord, the Member for Hunt.
eland PA LMERSTON observed, that in submitting the Es. ingdon, had laid the subject of the state of the Country
bare, and after such a picture as he had drawn, wax the House
timates of the Army for the current year, it became his duty to
notice the tone and matter of which the Hon. Gent,'s speech prepared to keep up extravant establishments, for no other
consisted, at some length. Any person who had heard that purpose that he could imagine, than that of givieg the mill.
Hon. Gentlenum.would have eupposed that this year there had
been a very large augmentation both in the number of inen en. tery an assendancy over the civil power ? He hail said thus
touch as an apology thr what he was going to say. In the year
rolled in time service, and in the amount of our military expencee. •1810, after much deliberation, the House appointed a Cern.
Now the fact was, that the number of troops, and the f xpenees inittee to inquire into the state of the Revenue and Expendi-
also would be found to be nearly the same as they were last year. tore - and to wrote. its observations anti recommendations to
In itomoinetances there WAR an increase of expence, anti in other the hause .
T at Committee referred back to the year 1792
being the last period of peace. ''The Noble Lord '
instances, as in the Ciiil Department particularly, there wassaid,
a diminution. . The whole increase of' the Expenditure was that it was ridiculous to go back to the year 1792. No doubt,
about 12tie0001. 01 which 42,0001. might he placed to the sic• he thought so; but did those who pay the taxes think so ? So
count of' the augmentation which bad been made in the last tar from it, that they had petitions for reduction of 'taxes
year, the account of which had been made up last year only to pouring in, and more would yet come. lie insisted that it
April, and somewhere above 90,0001. arising from the dif.
was the duty of that House to reduce the expenditure, as
ferenne of pay to the troops in Ireland, in the assimilated cur- far as It could be done without breach of faith. The into.
rency of the two countries. The first class of Estimates con- rest of the debt was twenty.eight millions, In this of course
tabled an augmentation to the amount of 102,0001., tit' whicist
e no diminution could take place ; but the other establishments
amounted to twenty-seven millions, and certainly admitted of
94.0001. was on account of Land Forces. The Statlexence
affinded an augmentation, of which somewhat above 2,0001. great reduction., lf. the Noble Lcird, for instance, who pro.
was solely changeable to the late assimilation of the currency tibly received 3or 4,0001. per annum, was reduced tone-half,
in Ireland. In the Civil Department, there-was a diminu. .and others, who were paid still better, reduced in a similar pro.
tion in the War (Nice to the ens eat, '2,0001. which he portion, ry expence, in short, put upon a footing of trusted would would be still greater between this and next Septern. nomy, he shad no doubt that a relief of twelve millions of taxes
ber. Indeed he should endeavour to retrench this pan of the might easil sate of the
y
be afforded. In 1792, the whole ex
expenditure with the strictest possible bounds, consistently army including the ordnance, was only millions, it was
with the interests of the -public, and an adequate performance now four times that amount. 'lt was true that the revenue in
of' the duty of. that Department. The estimate for medicines 1792, was only seventeen millions, and that now it was fifty.
presented a saving to the public but one de no very great five millions. but if so large a stun could annually extracted
amount. The Estimates for the Volunteer &hike exceeded Irons the people, it only spewed, to what an elevated pitch of
'those of last year to an amount of 8,9501., and for this reason, prosperity the country might be carried if the people was reliev.
that it was *opposed there would he a larger proportion of the
ed. In 1702, the total number of the army, including marines
Yeomanry of the country embodied this . year than there had and artillery, was 53,000; now they were called upon to vote
been' last, which would render it necessary to provide for them 104,000 linen for these services. In this, the eleventh year of
peace, and in the present stated the country, could any thing
on a larger scale. At the same time he would apprise thepeace,
warrant such a vote ? In India, there was, besides, a militia
House, that their numbers were decreased to the amount of 800
Of M,OOO men. In England and Ireland, there was a mi.
rinik and file—which might appear to warrant A decrease in this
item otexpence. Such, however, was not the case, for it had litia to the number of 74,000, entailing an expence of 153,0001.
_been considered expedient in consequence of representations In Ceylon and the Cape four or 5,0110 more, making altogether
made to Government, to increase the allowances to the Yeo- 2119,000 men, either in arm, .or ready to be called out. The
total Increase, since 1792, was not less than 173,000 men. He
manry whilst embodied.. The allowance of ss. a day for man
and horse had been found to be too small, and in consideration Intl implore the attention of the House to what had been the
of their being only on duty a short time in the season, which did recommendation of the Committee of Finance. The non.
not allow of their making those economical arrangements which
Member here recited the names of die Members cothposing that
troops who were pennauenely embodied could effect, it was de. Committee, amongst whom were, the Marquis of Londonderry,
termined to increase the vote, with the sanction of the House, Mr. I'ecl, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Huskisson, .Mr. Sturges Bourne
to 8,9501. which would enable Government to allow these cor Mr. liankes, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Gooch, and Sir Thomas Ace
at the rate of seven shillings a day fur man and horse whilst
land. This Committee certainly deserved the confidence of the
they remained embodied. On. tine second class of Estimates house. It Rat two years and made eleven reports, comprehend-
there would be no necessity to trouble the Committee, as that ing the vatioutisubjects of army, navy, ordnance, pensions, &c.
head of ex pence would be defrayed by the. East India Company. He would ask the Members of that Committee, he would par-
On the' third class, which.embtaced the .Military College and titularly itsk those of them who were now in his Majesty's Coun-
Woolwich Academy, the expencee was nearly the same as last cils, to look back to the work of their own hands, and see how
year. On the head of the Staff an augmentation of 8,000/. far they had fallen short of accomplishing what lead then beef%
had taken place... 'With respect to Garrisons, there had beets no expected. He would now See what they bad recommended. The
variation. But on thehead of Half-pity of General Officers Hon. Member here read an extract from the Report of the Corn.
there.bad been a .dirninution of .6,0001 which was occasioned by mi.._ _,
'gee which recommended a near and speedy approximation
casualties and deaths. The Forel Half-pay was also dime. to the establishments of 1792, as highly advantageous with
nished this year 2,400/. There had been no material alteration a view to relieving the then existing distresses. Since that time
in the House. Pensioners, but the estimate of Out.Pensionsrs at the prices of stores, &c. bad beensinuch reduced, so that no
Chelea Hospital MIS increased 4,053/. The Widows Pension , apology for disappointing the expectations of the Committee
List was augmented this year 6,00714 and the Allowances for could be made on this scare. What . then bad taken place
Wounds and on the Compatieionitte List also presented an en. since that period ? The Noble Lord had stated, in 1817, that
crease to the amount of 4,190/. The total estimate of our Mill. the Estimates of that year were not so low as they were
tary Establishment, including; Contingencies for England and to be in future years. In that statement tine House went
Ireland; General Staff, Hospital Contingencies, the Volunteer fully with the Noble Lord, and calculated that 3 large portion
Corps for England and Ireland, Recruiting, the Military Col. of .the expenditure might be saved. Ile would, however,
leges, General Officers' pay, Hospital Staff, In and Out Pen. shcw that every thing had increased instead of decreased. He
sionere of (Chelsea lloepitul, Military Asylum, NVidowit' Pen. did not blame the Noble Lord for this. lie only performed
slow, Wounds and c,onapanionate Llst,anlOUnteti Jo 6,862,000/. his duty in laying the Estimates before the )louse. He blamed
sterling, Which was an encrease certainly over the etstitnate of i his Majesty's Council for extravagaricies, which by weakening
last year, but if so, that estimate had been formed under the sane. the resources of the country, prevented from attaining to that
don of the express wish of that House, as would recollected by influence in the affairs of Europe, to which us a power of the
ailment every person who now heard him. As to the proposed first rank it was entitled. Time language of the Committee on
standard of expence so often talked of by some Honourable dab view of the subject well deserved attention ; they said that
Gentlemen, it was idle and absurd to suppose that he could the resources and strength ,of the country were augmented by
reduce our military expenditure to the same amount as that of every saving—they said that every diminution of expenditure
the lut'lcyon period of 1792. how was It possible to expect such was substantial increase to the income of the country, and they
a reduction could ever he trade whilst we limed so many new : recommended them to come as near as they could to the expert-
foreign garrisons in various parts ofthe worldoend whilst the trade ; diture of the year 1792. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to
and commerce of the country require corresponding protection the occurrences of the Year 1041, when he had moved that the
in those 'tattle Of' the globe
.witerp they hitherto had been comps.) Army Estimates should be cut down. He was then opposed by,
ratively strangers. The lion. Gentleman had talked of timethe"Gentlemen, Country but agricultural distress coming on
propriety of keeping up -, our establishments in our foreign' during the progress of the Session, they afterwards turned,
dependencies, by regular colonial troops attached to the soil, round, and an unanimous address to the Throne was carried, cu-
es it were. Now: he and the, House were aware that persons I forcing the necessity of all practiclible reductions in the general
could not be procured to. go out there to be banished for a expenditure, and particularly in the !Military expenditure. Au.
series of yearn from their own country, and that if they could i
lion. Gentleman,- when it become evident, that the motion he
be had; they would. as a mutter of course prove remiss, lax, intended to make would have been carried, interposed to pre-
nod ineffectiye trop re, front the circumstance of their not being serve. Ministers from that mortifloation, by moving the Address
brought periodically, home for the purpose of recruiting their lie bad mentioned, and the consequence was, that in the follow,
numbers and health, as well As thr tine no less important pur. e year the Military estimates were lower by 20,000 men and'
prw, of being examined as to their effectiveness and 'dote!. Malte million of' money. In consequence of this reduction of
pline. In fact, regiments, if allowed to remain in the Coto. the Army, the Ordnance, and every thing -else connected with
nies for a long period,,so es to render the Raving of any import. it was also reduced. Thir showed the good effects of a little
vice. to' time public, would be found to relax their !lattice, and determination and a little advice. Afterwards corn rose, the
knee their smartness and efficiency. The lion. Member having people were employed, and distress grew less, and linmedietely
attempted to arrange the military concerns, of the colonies, h
ey a system of encrease .was cotnmenced. Thowbole enerettee since
emoting an exclusively colonial force of an indigenoui character, that time was mm less than 15,000 men. - The pretence for this
was disposed it would, seem to do the country an equal service was the necessity of reliefs for, the Colonies, the state of Ire.
nt home by,performing the duty pf the military here, through land, and the state also of the Colonies, agitated, as it was
the nictlintit of the Militia. here, however, the Hon. Gentle. said by the resolutions passed in that Housela the year 1823:
men lutist, to do any thing, first persuade the Legislature to that this was only a pretence, and that the real object was to
change the law us it stood at present with respect to the Militia encrease the military force in this country was evident froin the
force. At present this force could only be caliettout 20 days in fact, that one fifth of the encrease went to the Colonic*. The
the year, unless under circumetanceis of , a threatened invasion Hon. Member then compared the pretest military forte with
or an existing rebellion in the country.. Although as it had that of the years from 1785 to 1792, and contended that there
been said this was a highly constitutional force, still thatforce was the less reason for such an encrease as bad 'taken place in
must be maintained at an equal expence with a regular force, the regular forces, because the Militia had greatly encreaset4
and that tv kiloton effective character, so that in
, point °-e
,ex! and a numerous body of Yeomanry had been created. These
pence no-adventage would, be gained. He would deny alto- alone, he contended, would have been sufficient to meet. any
gear that the gni-Aeons had been improperly or unnecessarily alteration of circumstances. It had been said that the encrease
upheld in the Colonies, as represented by the Honourable Gen. of the population rendered it imprudent to impair the power
Clement, more isiwticularly on tine North American station. or lessen the influence of the Crown. He would say reduce
Another selection of that. Honourable Gentleman's bad been taxes, make the people prosperous and they would be con-
equally , unfortunate me an object for Inculpation, namely, tented. A large military force and the expellees connected
the garrison of Gibraltar. Now, he would remind the House with it, encreased the necessity of a powerful restraint upon
and hitreof the wooly and honourable testimony given by a tine people: Ile did not know whether he hail made himself
Gallant Officer km year (Sir Robert Wileon),as to this garrison intelligible. lie was decidedly of opinien that they should revert
having merely 3 competent force within, ptoportioried to Its as nearly us possible to the rate of expenditure before .the
importance. One world actually have thought this would have French war. It was only by reducing the estahliehmente that
been taken as the best authority on such, a *object by the Hon. any relief could be afforded to the people—except, indeed, five
Gentleman, although it matte. but little 'for his argument. Ile millions were taken, which now constituted the Sinking Fund,
was not disposed to nimble with tine Hon. Gentleman through as it was well called ; for It Was a most ruinous fund—and, in:
I 1 the comparative review Inc had taken of tine finances and revenue stead of diminishing the debt, only helped the country to get
Foe this; country, and France, and the, United Suites, which had further into-debt. If to this were added seven millions more,
humidly' any reference to the question, but should previously to which might be easily saved upon the different estimates, a most
proposing his first resolution, remark; that the very arguments important relief might be aflinded. lie could not contemplate
winch he had made use of to :show that his Majesty's !Ministers any thing more grateful to his Majesty's Ministers than the
should retrench their expenses in every possible way, became° power of dispertaing so much benefit, and placing the country
they were attempting to return of metallic currency, would In it high and commanding position. Every speech front the
have been much more applicable, and the principle more intel. Throne spoke of the advantage of producing diminished esti-
ligible, if he reversed it altogether, and admitted the propriety mates, instead of which they found them every year to increase.
of attempting, to bring every thing of value to its proper stand . They were mere words. It was therefore incumbent upon the
and by adopting a metallic currency in order that we might be House to do iannething. lie should move an amendment as
in a condition which would enable Ministers to propose men. . nearly as possible in the words, for he could not express it better
sures of suitable economy. The Noble Lord concluded by than in the words of the Committee; he should move that it
moving his first resolution, that 87,210 men be granted to his was the opinion of that Committee, that it was expedient to ap.
„Majesty, exclusive of the troops in the service of the East India proach as near and as soon as possible to the military eistablisit.
Company, for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Brie ment of 1792.
taint and trek:lid. Mr. IiItOGDEN thought that according to the practice of
Lord MILTON was glad to be able to say he was net bound the House time Honourable Member couki not move so general
by the vote o f
- the House alluded to by the Noble Lord, bias_ an amendment In the Committee upon this particular resolution.
much ne he had walked out. in a minority of, he believed, nine, Mr. HUME said, that he had on former Occasions moved an
'when that vote had been proposed to the House by the Noble amendment quite as general upon every particular resolu.
Lord. lie objected to these votes altogether, because lie per. tion. He then moved the amendment, that, 'in tine opinion
mind they were ail founded on a false principle, namely, an of the Committee a large reduction should be made In the
Overweening anxiety to employ an enormously large British Estimate); so as to make them approximate to the establish.
military force at home and abroad. It was part of the military mente of' 1792, as recommended by the Committee of 1817."
mania which had arisen from our connection for sonic years with (The amendment here repeated the words of the Committee.)
the Potentates of the Holy Alliance. The Army, which only Lord PALMERSTON said chat he apprehended that the
consisted of 119,000 men in 1822, was, in the present year to be , object of the Hon. Member would not be much further advanced
increased to 87,000. This was a measure wind], he had no
if his resolutions were to pass. The whole question still would
doubt, the country gentlemen would repine at next year, as much remains, whether as close an approximation to the establishment
as they hail done in 1822, though they would not, perhaps, be as of IPA tag circumstances permitted hail been already made
likely to induce Government to make the same reduction of or not. This question could not be decided by merely refer.
our military force as they had done then. . And why did he ring to nutnencal accounts. He had endeavoured to prove;
think they would repent their acquiescence ? Why, for this plain whether successfully or not the House must judge, that the an.
reason,' because their rents would fail, lie highly disapproved Proximation had already been carried as far as possible. The
of the encreaseil allowanees .to the Yeomanry when called out Honourable Gentleman had thought it convenient to pane.
for training;. The whole of these errors proceeded from Minis- gYrise the Committee. of 1817—it happened to suit the present
tees being ignorant that the strength of a country consisted purpose; but he could recollect former occasions when the
not in a large inany. This nation 'night, under different cies. non. Gentleman had not manifested the same deference and
cumatances, be stronger with a standing army of 20,000 m n mimed to that Committee. If however the Hon. Gentleman
than with its present enormous art ''l he real weakness of the looked to the prospective establishment contemplated by the
country was tq be found in the tock Exchange, nor was it Committee, he would find that it amounted to 8,500,0004 in.
money than was so much required by the merclitints of this eluding artillery—now the present estimates did not amount to
country, at the hands of the Bank, es the restoration ,Of COnii- e that sum, and could not-be charged therefore With exceeding ItS