The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

tleman concluded by moving that this House regards with
regret and apprehension the state of affairs in New Zealand ;
and that those feelings are greatly aggravated by the want of
any sufficient evidence of a change in the policy which has led
to such disastrous results. The Hon. Gentleman sat down
amidst continued cheering.
Mr. WARD seconded the motien.
Mr. G. %V. HOPE said he would first address himself, in
replying to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, to the personal
• matter contained in this question. He felt now, as on for-
mer occasions, that Lord Stanley had, from the beginning to
the end of this matter, been much aspersed. The first charge
brought against his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) by the Hon.
and Learned Member (Mr. C. Buller) was, that of not
submitting the instructions to the New Zealand Company
which had been dispatched to the colony on the 7th of June.
In reply to this he might say that the minutes on which the
instructions to the colony were based had been submitted to a
private meeting of gentlemen connected with the Company, and
they were agreed to by them. The dispatches were founded on
these minutes, and the charge of bad faith in reference to this
matter was therefore entirely unfounded. Nothing was kept
back or held private from the deputation of gentlemen who had
applied to the Colonial-office for information on the subject.
This explanation he deemed quite satisfactory, and he should
be surprised, if any member of the deputation could be found
who would deny the statement of what took plane. There was
one Gentleman present, who was a member of that deputa-
tion, and who would much astenish him (Mr. Hope) if he
denied the truth of this.—( Hear, hear.) He had now dis-
posed of this, one of the greatest charges against his Noble
Friend. And what did these deputations, of which so much
was said, advise? They advised that a kind and cordial spirit
should be manifested in all transactions with the natives, con-
sistent with the interests of the colony. The Hon. Member
here read an extract from the instructions to Captain Fitzroy,
to the effect that there should be, as far as practicable, an
amicable settlement of all points pending between the natives
and the New Zealand Company, and that he (the Governor)
should prevent anything like exorbitant demands, either on the
part of the Company or the native chiefs. There had been no
deceit, therefore, manifested here.
Mr. C. BULLER—I did not say deceit. I said we had
been kept in the dark.
Mr. HOPE—The Hon. and Learned Member says he did
not charge his Noble Friend with deceit, he only charged
him with keeping the Company in the dark regarding thesein-
structions. That this was not the case he thought he had al-
ready shown the House—( Hear, hear)--though, on this point,
his Noble Friend had suffered attack and obloquy as if he had
done something highly derogatory to the interests and privi-
liges of the Company.—(Cheers.) He could further point to
the instructions given to the Company by the Government, as
showing that there had been a desire to meet the bona fide
claims of the Company, as far as it was consistent with the obli-
gations and honour of the country. The Hon. and Learned
Member only read a portion of the instructions to the House, to
which he objected. He did not read that which referred
to what he (Mr. Hope) had just adduced. He
would, therefore, read that "Zportion of the instructions,
to show the House that they bore out the construction he had
put upon them. The Hon. Gentleman read a passage from
the instructions recommending that it was necessary that effec-
tual steps should be taken to settle amicably the claims -of the
Company consirtently with the rights of the natives.—( Hear.)
Before those instructions were dispatched to the colony a depu-
tation waited upon his Noble Friend, and he (Lord Stanley)
made no hesitation in communicating the nature of the dis-
pa'ch. Yet he waseharged with keeping back information—a
charge which he must say was most unjust.—( Hear, hear.)
Complaint had been made by the Company on an award being
recommended that its acceptance would place them in a worse
position than otherwise, with regard to the natives. In 1843
this was the course resolved on. It was then, in instructions
sent out to Capt. Fitzroy, stated that he should co•opera.te
with the agents of the Company in arranging with the natives
about the sale of lands. In accordance with those instructions
Capt. Staines was appointed as Commissioner; and he would
read a portioa of a dispatch of the 19th of July, on the result of
this appointment. The extract read by the Hon. Member was
to the effect that in every arrangement about the lands with
the natives, the Company, in every cage in which there was any
doubt about title, should have sufficient compensation for all
improvements that had been effected.—( Hear, hear.) The
Commissioners acted in the spirit of this instruc•
lion, and proceeded to award fairly between the natives and
the Company, the Government considering that this was the
course best calculated to settle these unfortunate differences.
The lien. and Learned Member, in describing the state of the
colony, quoted entirely from a letter of Mr. Cowley, but had
nut referrsd to other important letters and communications
that had reached this country. He had not referred to the
letters of Lloyd's agents and others, who bad at least equal
means of information. He had limited himself to the com-
munication of one mien, in order to draw a frightful picture.—
( Hear, hear.) And what he had read was more calculated to
show the character of the settlers in the north and north-west
of the colony, than to prove that there was any great danger.
Sailors and the y erha that had been sent out from Parkhurst Pe-
nitentiary had been represented as exciting disorder in the colony,
but in these statements lie believed there was no little exagge-
rat iota in what had been said about the subordination of these
parties, and employed to excite sympathy, and to spread alarm
as to the con Litton of the colony. These youths from Park-
hurst, of which complaint had been male, l:ad been placed in
that penitentiary in order to reclaim them from their bad habits,
and they were sent out thee as it was not considered safe to turn
them out loose here, :n order to give them a chance of escaping
bad habits. That very day his Noble Friend had received di,-
patches from Auckland, dated the 25th, and stating that dtse-
fection only extended ton portion of the tribes, and that there
was strong hope that all the d:ffieulties would pass over without
any serious commotions. A letter hid also been received which
stated that since the last instructions from the colony the North
Star had arrived with 200 men, which arrival had done much
to calm the minds of the settlers, and that the news from
the disturbed districts represented matters as much quieter
than they were. This dispatch was from no agent of the Govern-
ment, but. from a gentleman who stated in a very independent
manner what he saw. But the Hon. and Learned Member
says that his latest date from New Zealand is of the 28th;
now he (Mr. Hope) had information a day later. In a news-
paper, published there on the 29th, which he had received, it
was stated that the 200 troops had art ived in the North Star
steam-packet, accompanied by six field pieces; that the forts
had been placed in a proper state of defence ; that block-houses
had been erected, and every step taken to place the settlement
in a proper state of defence.—( Hear, hear.) It was further
stated that there was an imp-eyed feeling of security in the
colony, and that the natives had made no further opposition.
He would sate this-to the House, in opposition to Mr. Cor-
mack's statement,. which had been adduced by the lion. and
Learned Member. But it was said that, in furthering and pro-
tecting the interest s cf Auckland, they had neglected Wellington.
This was not true, for as soon as the troops arrived from Sydney a
portion were immediately sent off to Wellington, in order to
protect the interests of that settlement. It was not right,
therefore, to charge the Government with culpable neglect.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman complained of the military
force placed at the disposal of Now Zealand. Why, when the
Noble Lord the Member for the City of London was at the
head of the Colonial Department, and application was made to
him for a military force for the colony, a hundred men wasthe
total force allowed them; and when the colonists complained
that the force was too little, they were told they could be sup-
plied with no more.
Lord J. RUSSELL—At that time.
Mr. HOPE—The military force had since averaged from
150 to 2)0 men. The available force in the Australian colo-
nies altogether had formerly been 1,600. In 1843, it was
2,400 ; and now there would be an available force of 4,000
men ; that was, whenever the regiments on their progress from
India and this country had arrived there. This, he believed,
was a competent force to maintain the authority of the Queen
in the colony; and to defend the settlers in the islands from
the attacks of the natives. There was, however, no proof
that any confederation of the natives would take place—that
they would unite against the settlers and require any great
demonstration of military power. The native tribes had
never yet united, nor, in his opinion, would they do so,
unless something was done to give them strong cause to com-
bine their interests and sympathies in a combined system. This
brought him to the point that the acts of the natives had re-
sulted from the policy of the Government; that the disaffec-
tion in the colony was to attributed to this alone. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had quoted Mr. Busby in support of
this opinion, and yet that gentleman, in another portion of this
statement, attributed the difficulties which had arisen to the
disposition of the natives to deny the sovereignty of this country,
and to overthrow the authority of her ilfajesty. It was said
that Captain Fitzroy had been supported by his Noble Friend,
such as no Governor was ever supported. Now he wanted to
know the authority for such a statement. This was not the case.
So far from its being so, he had been stalled into question on many
material points. On his financial proceedings, in the sale of
lands, in the raising of the militia, in the expenses of his Go-
vernment, and in forming laws lay his council in a hurried and
unsatisfactory manner,—on all these points he had been called in
question. With regard to Mr. Shoulbread, his secretary, to
whom reference had been made, he had, no doubt, been charged
with malversation in his office; but he was bound to state
that upon an investigation taking place there were no grounds
for the charge. tlr. Shoulbread resigned his office, as Captain
Fitzroy had expressed himself that he had no confidence in
him, yet he (Mr. Hope) must say he saw no reason whatever
for this course. It was hard that a gentleman's prospects in
life should be ruined upon a mere suspicion, which was not
founded in truth, and be had recently been appointed to
the Governorship in the West Indies. The Honour-
able arid Learned Member next complained of the place
where the capital had been fixed. In answer to that he might
refer to instructions sent out by the Noble Lord the Member
for the City of London (Lord John Russell) to Captain Hob-
son. Captain Hobson was instructed to fix the capital in the
territory belonging to the Government, and not in that of the
Company. The Hon. Member then read an extract from the
instructions in question to that effect. It was clear, therefore,
that Captain Hobson went out with instructions to fix the
capital in Government land. Auckland was in consequence
selected, and he was hound to say it was the best that could be
selected, for the purposes of trade and commerce. To abandon
that, as had been proposed, would have been, in his opinion, a
most fatal and ruinous course. The municipal institutions had
also been referred to, and complaints had been
made that they were not assimilated to those
of England. This was never intended. The municipal dis-
tricts were tracts of country mapped out for the purposes of
colonial Government, and had no analogy to sueh;,institetions 24
those that went by the same name in England. The Hon.
Gentleman then briefly referred to the charge against the
Government of imposing a tax upon this Company's settlers,
and justified the course which had been taken in that matter by
reference to what had been done in Canada under similar
circumstances. This, however, he considered had been fully
ant in the previous debate, without his going further into the
objection at present. It had been shown that there had
been no breach of honesty and good faith towards the
Colony or the New Zealand Company by the Government.
There was one other matter, to which the Hon. and Learned
Member referred, and on which the Hoe. Member for Lam-
beth seemed to lay considerable emphasis on a previous occa-
sion—he meant the vote given by himself (Mr. Hope) in the
Committee of 1840. The question, as it seemed to have some
importance attached to it, he should be happy to refer to.
w
It was, whether it
wise course to recognise the indepen-
den' e of New Zealaansd) and he was of the same opinion
now, for he thought it amo unwise course. But new the
lien. Gentleman turned round,
d you are inconsistent,
you supported the independence of New Zealand then, and
why turn round now, and advocate a different
e policy l could only repeat, that he was still of the same butle
•
that independence having been aeknowledsd, it would nosy
came
be still more unwise to adopt a different syst7em
to the conclusion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's.H nowo
and what the Hon. and Learned Memberds address,
%ien:ri-hed
as ring dropping." Those words might be u
very ex tended sense—( Laug'i ter )—and he losiieve it that the,Foria.
and Learned Member meant as much by them, namely, t ob-
tain fur the Company itself the laud they wished to become en-
tiled to. That was the principle of the policy which aline
pressed upon them, and yet the lion. and Learned Memb ir
said, strangely enough, that no change of policy had occurred.
He ( Mr. Hope) would say this, that if the Government were in
error in the policy they had adopted, they had to blame the pp-
/icy of the Noble Lord the Member fir London, who had pre.
N,FAestgAomrtarar, at,piti: heeinstructionsrg to the Governor

iii Noble Lord said the instructions were
\ ' not, then, go into the instructions given
L, , tif it were necessary to do so, he should
`ham at his policy went to the very principle
..:, right in the land, and that the Crown had
s them of it. If lion. Members would

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