The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-21 00:00:00

OF THIS

ATIS.

one-eighth in British ? I was not before aware of it to such an extent. I knew
that the pFapartion was considerable.
Does it not, in point of fact, follow, where shipping of one country has no pre-
ference from additional duties or charges over the ships of other countries, that the
American ships must be able to carry a freight on terms more favourable to the
charterers to obtain such preference ? There may be peculiarities in the nature of
the trade which may compensate to the shippers for the higher rate of freight, such
as the proprietor of the cargoes being connected with the ownership of the vessels ;
at the same time I cannot speak with any precision upon the question of American
shipping, having only an impression from general information, that they are not
navigated at a lower expence than British.
Do you happen to know, that English ships, seeking fizr. employment in
America, are under peculiar difficulties as compared with American ships ? lam
not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of the American trade in America to
answer that.

Do not the prejudices against out restrictive system, which you say have pro-
duced an unfavourable disposition against us in the minds of the Russian govern-
ment, extend to other points besides the duty on their timber ? Yes ; I believe
that our exclusion of their linens is considered in a more invidious light than even
our high duties upon their timber.
Was not a great deal of dissatisfaction expressed at the Polish Diet last sum-
mer, on the restrictions put by the government of this country on the importation
of Polish corn ? I believe that our prohibition of foreign corn, under the present
bill, is very obnoxious to the powers of Russia and Prussia.
Would not, then, a reduction of the duty of timber be chiefly valuable, as a
'hoof that we are no longer anxious to uphold our present system of restriction,
amounting to a prohibition of the 'productions of other countries? As far as
relates to Russia that might be the case ; at the same time I would add, that there
are some of the minor ports of Russia in the Baltic and in the White Sea, where
the exportation of deals forms nearly the whole of their trade, and therefore it is
an object of more importance, probably, to the government than the mere pecu-
niary value of the article in question.
In your opinion, would a reduction in the duty on the article of timber alone
remove that unfavourable disposition which you say is entertained against us, unless
followed by the removal of the restrictions upon the other articles ? It would
contribute' to such an effect chiefly as an earnest of a more liberal system.
What is the comparative export of linen, corn, and wood, from the northern
powers of the Baltic, in point of value, on an average of years? I will endeavour
to obtain it for the committee.

From the general knowledge which you have of the trade of the country, and
particularly of that branch of it, the carrying trade, have you any reason to sup-
pose that the shipping interest has been as successful, generally speaking, as that
ship to which you have particularly alluded, as belonging to yourself ? Perhaps
not : but with severe economy and activity and prudence in the management, 1
should suppose that in a great proportion of instances they may have made a
bare livelihood.

Do you know the selling prices which northern timber has borne in this country
for the last twenty years? I will endeavour to prepare a statement, to lay before
the committee.

What number of voyages do ships usually make between the principal ex-
porting ports of timber in 'Russia and London, in the course of the season ? Be-
tween St. Petersburg and London they make generally two voyages; sometimes,
but rarely, three. From Riga they may, if there be any adequate object for it,
make three voyages ; but Ido not believe, in point of fact, that they often make
more than two. From Archangel and Onega, one voyage.
What proportion of the timber is carried on from Archangel and Onega, com-
pared with St. Petersburg and Riga? I should think it is about one-fifth, com-
pared with a total of the Russian ports in the Baltic.
How many voyages do the ships make, which are employed in the timber trade
between Prussia and this country ? I cannot speak from personal knowledge re-
specting the trade with Prussia,
Can you speak to Norway and Sweden? No, nor to Norway and Sweden.
_ _

. ..
Have you made out a statement of the rate of freights outward, from the ports
of America and the ports of the Baltic to London, during the last year; and also
of those engagements, as far as made to your knowledge, in this present year ?
I have.

[ It was delivered in, and read.]

" In 1820 :

The freights from Quebec to London, or the ports in the English Channel,
were :-
475. Gd. per load, for pine timber.
50s. to 525. 6d. per load, for oak timber.
71. ss. to 71. 10s. per standard hundred, for deals.
Staves, 121. to 151. per mile, for broken stowage, and two-thirds
port charges, or 5 per cent.
From Miramichi, Picton John's, or St. Andrew's, to London, &c. 40s. to
425. per load, for timber :
Broken stowage, in proportion thereto, and two-thirds port-charges, or
5 per cent.
The Baltic freights to London were:-
Memel.-For timber, 20s. to 21s. per load ; deals, 31. to 31. ss. per standard
hundred, and .5 per cent.
Dantzig timber, 225. ; deals, 31. 10s. per standard hundred, and 10 per cent.
Riga timber, '24s. to 235. per load ; deals, 31. 15s. to '3l. 10s. per standard
hundred, and 5 per cent.
St. Petersburg.-Deals, 41. to 31. 15s. per standard hundred. No timber im-
ported ; but the freight would have been 255. to 265. per load, and 5 per
cent,

"In 1821:

Quebec.—A few ships have been taken up this year to load, chiefly deals, at
71. ss. down to 71. per standard hundred, and 5 per cent.; more could be
got on the same terms, or 475. Gd. per load for timber, and might perhaps
be prevailed upon to take 455. but at a greater reduction it would not

pay.
Picton St. John's, or St. Andrew's.—Ships would go at 40s. and
5 per cent. perhaps a few might take 375. Gd. per load; but that is ques.

tiOnable.
Mernel.—Ships have fixed at 20s. Gd. and 20s. per load, and 5 per cent.: no
expectation that they can go lower.
Dantzig.—The merchants offer 21s. and 71 per cent. hardly adequate to the ex-

pences of that port.
Riga, or St. Petersburg.,--Yet too early ; but the freights cannot well be lower
than last year, or at most a trifle. •

The ship-owners find one Quebec freight to be made in about the same time as
two voyages to Memel, and to pay better; as although the wear and tear may be
greater in crossing the Atlantic, yet the difference of expellee in only one loading
and discharging, besides saving twice port charges, makes the American trade the
most profitable. In short Baltic trips, the expenses of the port of London in
tonnage dues", dock dues, tice. is severely felt, and deters many from sending their
ships to Memel, &c."
19 February, 1821.

Can you inform the committee what was the current price of timber of good
quality at Memel, during the last year ? Not precisely. I have, however, un-
derstood that it .varied according to quality, from 225. to 28s. and even to 30s.
Can you give the committee information of what was the current price at Riga ?
From 30s. to 40s. on board.
A t Dantzig ? I cannot say.
•In Nor Way ? 'Nor any where else. _ . _

Are you acquainted with the extent of the exports from Riga, Archangel, and
PeterSburg ? I have a statement to that effect, which is as follows :

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CCCn

Average quantity of Standard Deals for 7 years

Average annual Export Irons
Onega - ' - - 20 cargoes, each of
I 2,000 Standard Deals -
Wyberg. and other ports in Finland, 40 l)o. Do.
Narva - .. .. '2O Do. Do.

Standard Deals

3,060,64'2

Equal to 250 cargoes, of 12,000 Standard Deals each, of Masts, Bowsprits, Spars
and Timber ; about 50 cargoes may be considered the annual average Ex-
port from Riga.

1820:
St. Petersburg - Standard Deals
Riga Do. 243,750
Archangel lio. 514,520
John Caldwell, Esquire, called in, and examined.
Will you be pleased to state in what capacity you appear before the com-
mittee ? As a landholder in Canada.

Do you not hold some rtublic situation there ? 1 am a member of the Legis-
lative Council, and receiver-general of the province.
Have you been long a resident in Canada ? Yes ; I was born in Canada. '
And you have generally resided there ? Yes ; the greater portion of my life.
You are a proprietor to a considerable extent? I have, I suppose, three or
four hundred thousand acres. I have, besides others, one property opposite
Quebec, six leagues by six.
Are you a large proprietor of timber ? I have a great deal upon my estate.
Do you consider the proprietors of land as deriving great advantage from the
wood trade, speaking as a proprietor ? Generally, I do. I wish to state, more
particularly, the kind of wood in which the proprietors are particularly interested.
I conceive, that all the proprietors of land in Lower Canada have particular interest
in the question as respects the spruce timber, as there is scarcely a landholder or
farmer who has not more or less of that description of timber on his property; and
which is available to the market either by its being near to the St. Laurence, or

great streams which empty themselves into that river; hence it can be readily
brought to the mills near Quebec, erected for the purpose of sawing timber.
What is the quality of spruce timber ?—lt produces a deal as nearly as possible
identical with the Norway deal.
Is it yellow or red ?—lt would be called a white deal ; it is the most like what is
called the moss deal of Norway, or some of the coarser kinds ; it ranks with about
the second deal of Norway.
Is it considered equal in durability and strength to the Norway deal ?—I conceive
so ; some, however, of the groves that we have explored have been considered as
affording a deal not so mellow as the Norway deal.
Are there great quantities of it?.—lmmense quantities.
Has it been the subject of importation to any great extent?—l was the first
who imported it in 18e8-9.
Is it exported to a very considerable extent?,---Yes.
Under what name does it come into the market ?—White spruce.
What price does it bear as compared with the yellow pine or the red pine ?—lt
rates rather higher in this market than the yellow pine, and would rate lower than
red, if -with regard being had to profit we could bring any red pine deals to this
market, which we cannot do at present.
Do you know for what purposes it is chiefly applied?.
'poses for which second Norway deals would be applied.
Is it exported in square timber as well as deals ?—No ; the growth of that tim
ber being small, it is only susceptible therefore of being sent here tut into deals.
What is its value in Quebec before conversion; as compared with yellow and red
-pine ?—lt greatly depends for what purpose it is to be used for ; it is seldom ob-
tained of a larger size than fourteen inches square ; it is the timber of which the
frames of all the houses or nearly so in Canada are made; it is used for frame
work-, all the roofs and rafters are made of the spruce : it is seldom brought into
the market as an article of public sale.
It is used chiefly by the inhabitants of the country?—Yes, every one having
more or less of it on his farm.
Are you a proprietor of much of the yellow or red pine?-1 have some groves
of the yellow, but none of the red.
Is the wood trade of great importance to the Colonists, as giving employment
to their people at any particular season of the year ?—The cutting of the spruce
timber is of particular importance to all the inhabitants of Lower Canada; to be-
gin with the lowest point of the country, that to the northward and eastward of
Quebec, upon the banks of the St. Lawrence, there are three or four parishes,
whose principal occupation is the cutting this wood in .the winter, and sawing it at
their own saw mills, and bringing it forward to Quebec from St. Paul's bay and St.
Mary's bay, to ship it to this country.
It is the principal business, and not accessary to any other employment which
they have ?—They look to the sale of their deals to enable them to procure their
supplies of West India and British produce.
In other parts of the country, does it contribute much to the advantage of the
colonists, by the employment of their people in the winter, who are occupied in
other periods of the year in agriculture?—lt does universally on the South side
of the St. Lawrence, and within the last year has afforded employment for the new
settlers in what are called the Eastern Townships, namely, those on the banks of
the St. Francis, and those rivers which fall into it. I may add, that the logs are
drawn, in the winter, to the banks of the river, and brought down to Quebec in
summer, after the farmer has finished putting his seed in the ground, and before
hay harvest

'—lt is applied to the pur

Is that a part of the country from which the greatest proportion of the timber
trade is carried on?—No, except as respects the spruce timber.
Then with reference to those parts of the country from whence the greatest quan-
tity of wood is brought, is it not usual to cut the wood by gangs, if they may be
so described, brought in from the United States for this purpose ?—Whenever
large groves of timber are found at a distance from any settlement, that is the case
to a certain extent.

Does not that constitute a great proportiOn of the woods from whence the tim-
ber is derived ?—The yellow pine timber is cut a good deal on the banks of the Ot-
tawa; a proportion of which is cut in the way mentioned, but a considerable pro-
portion is also cut by farmers.

Does the quantity cut by the farmers bear almost any proportion to that cut in
the way to which the former question refers?—l should say, it did; but not deal-
ing in square timber myself, I cannot accurately answer that question.
Do not the same persons who cut the timber, usually raft it and convey it down
the river to the ports?—l understand that in Upper Canada, in, the St. Lawrence
and the bay of Quenti, it is the practice of the country merchant to purchase from
the farmers different lots of lumber, which he unites into one raft, and which he
brings down for sale to Quebec.

Are not the people employed in this business, chiefly citizens of the United
States?—l cannot speak to that.
is the timber trade considered as one of the means of clearing the country, with
a view to cultivation, and valued as such ?—lt affords the means of clearing the
country, inasmuch as the new settler is thereby enabled to obtain an immediate
subsistence on his property, which he might otherwise be obliged to abandon through
want of capital

Then are you of opinion, that if there was no timber trade in Canada, those
lands would not be cultivated?—They would not be cultivated with so much ad-
vantage.
_ _

Then how do you reconcile that with the cultivation having_more rapidly in-
creased in parts of Upper Canada, where there is no timber trade, than in the
Lower Canada ?—Because the soil and climate are better; and inasmuch as it is
generally a hard-mood country, the value of the potash will afford the same means
of clearing the hard-wood land that the timber trade does to the black timber land.
Does not a great proportion of the wood which is exported from Canada come
from the United States?—A large proportion.
Can you state any thing near what that proportion is, of the whole exported
from Canada?—Perhaps somewhat under a half.
_ _

More than a third, and less than a half ?—Yes.

Are there the means, in its passing through the country, of distinguishing that
which comes from the United States, from that which is the produce of our own
colonies?—All that which is cut upon Lake Champlain passes by the custom-house
of St. John's.

Is there any other channel by which it comes?--That which is cut south of la-
titude 45° on the St. Lawrence, must pass by Chateaux Quay.
Through which channel does the largest quantity come ?—Hitherto from Lake
Champlain.

How long have the people of the United States been in the habit of bringing
timber through Canada ?—I have known timber brought in that way 20 years ago.
Has it increased considerably within a few years ?—Most considerably since 1807.
Do you consider that increase as having been created by-the high duties which
have been imposed on the foreign trade ?—Unquestionably.
What effect upon the colonies, beneficial or otherwise, would be produced by
subjecting the timber of the United States to the same duty as that imposed upon
the timber of other foreign nations ?—lt would benefit the landholders and manu-
facturers of timber in Canada generally, but would hurt the commercial part of the
community, and those who depended upon the arrival of a large number of ships
for their trade.

Would it have any effect upon the commercial part of the community, indepen-
dent of the effect produced iu diminishing the demand for shipping in the port of
Quebec ?—For a few years it would diminish the timber market, but ultimately
abundant supplies of timber would be obtained in the country. As the country gets
settled, groves of timber become available, which were before out of reach, except
at a very heavy expense.
Would not a diminution of the timber market in Quebec be beneficial to the
persons engaged in the timber trade within our own colonies ?—Speaking as a pro-
prietor I should say it would; as a general merchant, I should say it would not.
Do you think that, in time of peace, the admission of American timber to all
the benefits of our colonial timber is productive of an equivalent advantage in the
vent of our manufactures through that channel 2--I conceive that the purchase of
Lake Champlain timber materially contributes to the sale of British manufactures,
inasmuch as it enables the timber-cutters to purchase those articles.
Will you be so good as to state in what way that trade has been, and now is
carried on ?—Formerly, I believe, all the money passing immediately into the
hands of the timber cutters, went into the United States • latterly, the payments
having been in Canada bank notes, they have been generally exchanged for British
manufactures and West India produce at Montreal; this has also arisen from Bri-
tish manufactures being now relatively cheaper at Montreal than they were at New
York in former years.

If any regulations were adopted so as to make any difference unfavourable to
American timber, in the exportation from Quebec to Great Britain, the growth of
the United States and of Canada, is it not probable that the timber the growth
of the United States, would be used in the country and shipped to the West Indies,
so as to admit of an equal additional quantity of Canadian timber which otherwise
would be consumed by those purposes, being exported to Great Britain?—As in
that case the United States timber would be at the lowest price, it would be used
generally for all purposes to which it was applicable.
Has not the timber trade much increased the population in the British provinces
of North America, or has it not much encouraged emigration into that country?--
I conceive it has, by giving immediate employment to many persons on their
arrival.

Does it form any inducement for persons to emigrate from this country ?—I
should answer the question by supposing a man in this country to receive a letter
bout his friend or relation in Canada, stating that he had obtained immediate em-
ployment on his arrival ; such informatiorLwould certainly encourage emigration.
Have you ever known emigrants from this country expert persons in cutting
and felling timber for market ?—Last winter I employed an Irish family in the
woods; they being industrious people, obtained a good livelihood by preparing logs
for the market; not in cutting the tree down, for which they employed Canadians,
but in cross cutting the tree when felled with the saw.
What proportion do the experts of timber from the Canadas bear to the whole
exports from those provinces?—l am not informed upon that subject.
Is not the whole of the timber so exported an additional means of paying for
British manufactures and produce ?—Unquestionably it is.
Have many establishments been formed at Quebec at very considerable expense,
for sawing timber for this market ?—Yes, there have.
Have you formed such yourself ?—I have, very large ones.
Have you sent out steam engines to form those establishments ?—No.
Have you formed those establishments, in the expectation that those advantages,
which you have'hitherto enjoyed with respect to duty in this market, would be con-
tinued to you ?-1 have always felt full confidence in the protecting care of the
mother country. The consolidation act, declaring the duties on deals permanent,
acted likewise as an encouragement; I hare since then cut a canal to a considerable
extent in my own property, for the purpose of bringing logs forward to my saw
mills.

To what extent does it happen to fall within your own knowledge that those
establishments have been formed in Quebec by others, what extent in point of ca.
pital?—The capital expended in and about Quebec, is about 100,000/.
Has that amount of capital been laid out in establishments for sawing the tim-
ber?—Yes, and the necessary ponds connected with them; there is one establish-
ment where the machinery is driven by steam.

Do you think a moderate duty, imposed upon the trade, would not operate in the
way of regulation that might be upon the whole beneficial to Canada? It would
depend on the extent of it. I should conceive a small duty would check that
spirit of adventure which has done so much injury to the trade, and reduced it
below its fair rate of profit.
Do you not also think, that the effect of such a small duty would be to induce
the Canadians to send their timber home better squared, and in a much snore
marketable state, than it is sent at present ?—I should conceive so.
You have spoken to the amount of capital invested in the establishments at or
near Quebec, for the purpose of sawing and preparing timber, will you be so good
as to state to the committee what you conceive to be the amount of capital so in-
vested, in the whole of the colonies? About 150,0001. in Canada.
[Adjourned till to-motrow, one o'clock.

Mercurii, 21 dic Februarii, 1821,

The Right Honourable TfIOMAS WALLACE, in the chair.
[The petition of certain merchants of Liverpool, referred to the committee,
was read.]
John Caldwell, Esq., again called in; and further examined.

In your evidence yesterday, you stated, that a considerable capital was invested
in the erection of saw mills and machinery, for the cutting of timbeY into deals in
Canada ; are you particularly acquainted with that business ? I believe I am.
Has it been carried to any considerable extent? It has very much increased
within the last two years. _ .

What proportion of the timber (by timber meaning square timber and deals)
shipped annually from Canada, may be in deals? About one-fourth. I should
observe of this, nearly one-half, and in former years still more than one-half, had
come from Lake Champlain.
They are deals cut in the United States ? Yes ; at present we are equal to the
supply of that whole quantity ourselves, if our mills were in full operation, and not
restricted by a competition, we are fully equal to the supply of any quantity that
might be required.
Do you mean a larger quantity than has been hitherto supplied from our own
mills? Canada is equa to the supply of 1,200,000 deals.
Is the committee to understand, that a supply of deals is regularly received into
Canada from the United States ? Yes, to the amount of 5 or 600,000 pieces
annually.

What is the practice, in point of fact, in Canada, of cutting those deals? What
are the usual lengths, breadths, and thicknesses, that they are in the practice of
cutting them to ? The deals, which come from a distance, are invariably cut three
inches thick, either nine or eleven inches wide, and twelve feet long.
Mention those that are not from a distance? Those from mills in the neigh-
bourhood- of.. Quebec, are cut in the most advantageous mode for converting the
timber ; they are generally twelve feet long, nine to eleven inches wide, one and a
half, two, and three inches thick.
Then is the committee to understand, that although the breadths and thicknesses
to which deals are cut in Canada vary, the general length is twelve feet? Cer-
tainly.
Suppose that a duty were to be laid on timber and deals, have you considered in
what manner that duty might be laid on deals, so as to secure its fair and equal
payment, and be attended with the least inconvenience to the importer in this
country? The answer to that question is extremely difficult, and would require a
person, perhaps more conversant with the London timber trade than I can pretend
to be. lam not prepared to give any opinion upon the subject.
To what ports, in the United Kingdom, are the deals of Canada usually shipped?
The first deals come to London, the second quality deals go to Ireland and Liver-
pool, and other parts; we have been driven out of Ireland by the Norway importers,
from the deals being received there by the graduated scale.
Inform the committee what were the current freights for deals during the last
season, from Canada to Great Britain? About 71. 10s. per Petersburg standard.
Can you inform the committee whereabout was the average shipping price for
Canada deals during the last season, by the same measure, the Petersburg standard
hundred? Prom 51. to 71. I think, according to quality.
Would 61. be a fair average of the whole quantity ? The price of floated deals
and of bright deals are different.
Have the goodness to state the difference? Generally, at least, 11. and some-
times 30s. a hundred in favour of the bright deals.
By bright deals are meant those which are carried in craft? Yes; not floated.
Are you at all acquainted with the stave trade of Canada? Not, except shipping
staves occasionally, always as broken stowage; indeed, not sufficiently to give par-
ticular information upon the subject..
Do you consider it very probable, that if any alteration were made in, the duties,
any reduction of the duties on Baltic timber would have the effect of limiting the
export of British manufactures to the colonies, to a considerable degree? Exactly
in the degree that it interfered with the export of our timber.
Do you mean, that the colonies have no means of paying for the manufactures
they receive from this country, but through the timber trade? Their means must
be limited by their exports; it' you diminish their exports you necessarily diminish
their imports.
What means have they of paying for their imports besides the timber trade?
Wheat and flour, when the ports are open, and whatever potash is made in the
country.

What proportion of the export of the manufactures from this country do you
conceive depends upon the timber trade? I should say, that were the timber trade
annihilated, and the ports shut against flour and wheat, we should not have the
means of paying for any other manufacture than what the bills drawn by govern-
ment for the support of the troops, besides the proceeds of its potash and furs and
skins, would enable the country to pay. We should be nearly ruined.
The high duties were imposed in the year 1809-10 ? Yes.
The timber trade, previous to that time, was comparatively very trifling? Very
trifling.
It appears, by the accounts delivered to the House of Lords, that in the year
1808, which was previous to the imposition of those duties, the exports to the
colonies exceeded 938,0001. ; that in the year previous to that they exceeded
829,0001.; and in the year previous to that 746,0001.; and in the year 1802
they exceeded 1,112,0001.: by what ineani were those importations paid for?
As to the year 1802, it was subsequent to the largest harvest ever known in Canada,
at a period when the price of corn had been high in Europe. As well as I can
recollect, 1799, 1800, 1801 and 1802 were years of great scarcity in Europe; the
exportations from Canada were very large in all those years of wheat and flour, at
very high prices ; the Newfoundland trade had also considerable activity in those
years. The years 1806, 1807 and 1808 were years also of very large demand for
corn; being years of war, the supplies that were required for the army in the
country were very considerable; the supplies required for Europe were great, and
government at that time had the policy of obtaining supplies for the troops at
Halifax from Canada, which has been dropped since that period. The export of
timber was also getting to be very considerable, and was very beneficial in those
years, because, in consequence of the alarm as to the state of the Baltic, we had
a very excellent market in this country, without the introduction of the duties.
In 1807, 1808 and 1809, the American embargo system, and the non-intercourse
acts, also caused a large quantity of goods to be passed into the United States
through the medium of the Canadas. Potashes, during the whole of the above
periods, were likewise exported to a considerable extent, more particularly during
the period of the American embargo and non-intercourse.
Did not the same causes operate, in conjunction with the high duties, up to the
end of the war, to enable you to pay for the exports from Great Britain? The
large sums expended in Upper and Lower Canada, during the progress of the late
American war, contributed for some years after to enable the inhabitants to clothe
themselves in British manufactures.

It is your opinion, that the import of British manufactures to the colonies would
be in proportion to the export of their timber to this country? Yes.
And that, as the diminution of the export of timber proceeds, the diminution of
the import of manufactures would keep pace with it? Certainly.

Mr. John Hamilton, called in ; and examined.

Are you a proprietor of Ihnd in Canada? I am.
Are you also a merchant, importing timber from Canada? I am.
Where resident? At Liverpool.
How long have you been in that trade ? About seven years myself.
_ _

Are you in the habit, as a merchant, of supplying a considerable part of the
consumption of timber in the part of the country where you reside? I sell a
number of cargoes in the course of a year.
Have you found that the use of the Canadian timber has, in a great degree,
superseded that of the Baltic, in that part of the country ? As I am only engaged
in the Canada trade, I have no opportunity of knowing the diminution in the con-
sumption of the Baltic timber.
Has the consumption of the Canada timber very much increased in that part of
the country ? Very much.
Since what period? It has increased very much within the last three years.
To what do you attribute that increase? To the very low price of the timber.
Do you consider the heavy duties imposed upon the Baltic timber as having con-
tributed to that ? I do, very considerably.
Do you consider that any effect has been produced by the experience they have
had in that part of the country, of the value of the Canadian timber? I should
suppose so, of its being adapted to the purposes for which it is used.
Do you know to what purposes it is generally applied ? I sell it by wholesale to
the timber merchants, and I learn from them the uses to which it is applied; from
my own personal knowledge I am not competent to speak upon that subject.
Do you know from such information, whether it is applied in that part of the
country to purposes to which it is not usually applied in London ; as for instance,
to the higher description of buildings ? I consider that it is employed in the build-
ing of small houses in the neighbourhood of Liverpool; an immense quantity is
consumed in Manchester, for the purpose of packing-cases ; a good deal is em-
ployed where timber of a large surface is required, and also in a great number of
country purposes, where it is exposed to the air out of doors.
You would consider those as inferior purposes? I should.
Are there any,purposes for which, at equal prices, you have reason to believe it
would have a preference over Baltic timber ? I have been given to understand,
that for musical instruments, and in some cases for packing-cases, it would have an
equal demand with the soft wood from the Baltic, but not a superior one.
For the inferior purposes to which you have adverted, would not the circumstance
of its being cheaper give it the preference ? I should think so.
For all the inferior purposes to which you have adverted ? I should think it
would depend upon the difference of price; upon the relative proportion of the
price of each.
Can you state at what relative proportion the price of American timber would
still continue to supply the consumption for those inferior purposes to which it is
now wiled ? It is a difficult question to answer; I should conceive about thirty

shillings a load difference, but it is really a matter that I am hardly competent to
give an answer upon, having had no experience as to that immediate fact.
Do you think that if the difference was twenty shillings instead of thirty shillings,
that world produce a 'considerable check Capon the trade? A very ebnsidetable
check, I Should suppose.
Can you Staid any reason for that ? I consider that the yellow pine timber is
frequently bought from its cheapness; there is a greatvprejudice in favour of the
Baltic timber, and if the difference of price, was not great, I conceive very
frequedtly the purchaser would buy the Baltic timber

1)9 you think that for ifiletior purposes to which the Canada timber is as appli-
cable as that of the Baltic, a difference of twenty shillings per load would not be
sufficient to cast the balance in its favour? For some purposes I think it would
be a sufficient difference ; but it would materially lessen the present consumption.
Can you state what the proportion of the consumption in those inferior purposes
is to the general consumption? I cannot.
Do you happen to know in What estitnation as compares to tattle timber, the
Canada timber stands in the neighbourhood of Liverpool ? It is generally consi-
dered inferior where strength is required.
Do you know whether it is considered as more liable to dry rot? Ido not.

Are you aware that one of the prejudices against it is cn account of its superior
liability to dry rot ? I have hear so.
In unloading any of your cargoes, have you observed much appearance of the
fungi which precede dry rot ? lam not acquainted sufficiently with the appearance
of dry rot to know ; I have observed on the surface of the timber, an appearance
of dampness, and that it was in places discoloured; and also on the surface of the
deals, but that has arisen from their being shipped in a wet state.
Dld the timber, -appearing in that state, sell at the same price as it would have
done if it had arrived in a perfect state? Exactly the same price.
Have you been resident in Canada ? I have.
Have you property to a considerable extent there? I have, in conjunction
with my brothers.
Does it consist of woodland, or of land in a state of cultivation ? -Of both, but
principally of woodland ; also of mills and wharfs, adapted to carrying on the tim-
ber trade.

What is the situation ? The mills are situated on the Atawa river, at the back
of the Island of Montreal.

Is your chief property in that part of the country ? We have lands in different
parts of Canada.

In what way do you consider the timber trade valuable to you as a colonist? I
have been so much in the custom of considering the trade as a merchant, that I
hardly know how to look at it merely as a colonist. I consider it valuable, as en-
abling us to cultivate our lands, and to employ our people ; but that is in a mer-
cantile character.

Do you think the extension of cultivation in that country is at all dependent
upon the timber trade? I think it is promoted by it.
Are the persons who are chiefly employed in cutting and rafting timber, persons
employed also in agriculture ? The axe-men are not; they are chiefly Americans,
from the United States. The labourers, who are occupied with the timber, in haul
ing it out of the woods, and preparing it for the mills for being sawn up, are em-
ployed in the summer months in the cultivation of the lands; the axe-men are not
beneficial to the cultivation of the countr3.

What proportion do the axe-men and rafters, in point of number, bear to the ether
persons employed in the timber ,trade? They are employed in a smaller proportion
than other labourers.

Do you know whether the population of the province has increased much within
a few years ? In Upper Canada very much, in Lower Canada not so much, but
still it has increased.

Do you consider the timber trade as one of the causes of that increase? Yes;
a material cause, in giving encouragement to emigration.
Has the emigration taken place more into Upper Canada than Lower Canada?—
Considerably more into Upper Canada than Lower Canada.
Is not the principal quantity of timber delivered from Lower Canada? I should
think not.

Is there much ship-building in Canada? There was at one time; it has almost
ceased at present.
What is the extent of the property that has been vested in mills, and other
establishments, with a view to carrying on the timber trade in Canada ? I should
think about 150,0001.

Into how many principal establishments is that divided? About four or five
principal establishments.
At what period were those establishments commenced? Principally about the
year 1815 ; 1815, 1816, 1817.

Have you any of those establishments belonging to yourselves ? - Yes.
Is it one of the most considerable, or have you several? I should say, it was
the third in point of extent in Canada.
In speaking of the period at which they were commenced, do you speak of your
own only, or of the whole ? I speak to the whole. They were begun at an ear-
lier period, but they have been much extended.
What led to that extension? The profit upon the exportations.
Were they established and extended in consequence of the operation of the duties
on the Baltic timber? I should say, they were extended in consequence of the.
high price the goods bore in the English market.
Was not that, in .your opinion, in consequence of the high duties which have
been imposed on the British timber,? I think the high price the goods bore in
this market was owing to the duties on the Baltic timber ; but the immediate cause
of the increase in Canadian establishments was, the price obtained here for Ame-
rican timber and deals.
Were not those establishments commenced and extended under the conviction,
that the laws imposing those duties were temporary? That they were temporary
to a certain extent.

Was not the original law which imposed the duties a temporary law? I was
not in the Canada trade myself at the time when it was imposed, therefore, perhaps,
I am hardly competent to speak to the subject; but in the year 1817, previous to
the increase of our establishment, there was a communication from the Board of
Trade to the merchants and ship-owners connected with the Canada trade, stating,
that it was the opinion of their lordships, " that an extension of duty, equal in
amount to the additional duty imposed in 1813, would be beneficial to the revenue,
without prejudicing the interests concerned ;" under that impression, we certainly
conceived that any alteration which might take place would not exceed that
amount at any time.

Have you the letter to which you refer ? I have not it about me, but I could
produce a copy of it to-morrow.
Are you sure that that letter did not apply to the whole of the duties that were
imposed for the purposes of revenue, subsequent to the year 1813 ? I have always
considered it as applying to the additional duty of about 10s. imposed after the
year 1813; the last duty imposed previous to the consolidation act, I think it was
about 10s.

[The witness was directed to produce the letter.]

Do you import deals, both bright and floated ? No, we only import floated
deals ourselves.

Are you aware, that they fetch a different price in the Liverpool market? The
difference is very little in the Liverpool market ; about 10s. the Petersburg standard
hundred.

Are you aware whether any material difference exists in the London market?—
About one pound the standard hundred.
You have stated, that the principal people employed in felling the trees are United
States men, and that they are consequently not beneficial to agricultural purposes;
do you not still consider, that their residence in the country is beneficial, to the ex-
tent of so much of their earnings as they expend in the country? Certainly.
Are not the persons employed in agricultural pursuits the parties to whom the
lapping and squaring of the timber is left? Very much ;in Lower Canada, almost
exclusively so in the trade of spruce deals.
Therefore the axe-men are merely employed for felling the timber? Yes, and
subsequently squarirlg it.
Do you know what becomes of the axe-men during the period of the year that
there are no trees felled ? They have the occupation of bringing down the rafts
from Upper Canada; there is a period in the autumn during which they have not
much occupation, but it is but a small period.
They are United States men ? They are.
Is the trade carried on to a considerable extent, and at the present low prices of
timber, advantageous to the merchants who charter ships for the purpose of bring.
ing it ? Certainly not.
Is it advantageous to the ship-owner who employs his ship on his own account?
—Decidedly not.
Can the trade be continued at its present extent under such disadvantages, even
although no alteration of the duties were to take place ? Not at the present prices
certainly. . _ _

Can you inform the Committee what proportion of the whole timber annually
shipped from Canada, is shipped in deals ? I should think at present about one
fourth.

Can you inform the Committee what the practice is, as to cutting those deals
into certain lengths and sizes ? The Canada pine deals are chiefly manufactured,
three inches thick, eleven and nine inches wide, and twelve feet long; the spruce
deals which are intended as a substitute for the Norway deals, are nine inches wide,
three inches thick, and twelve feet long.
Then the Committee are to understand, that although the deals vary in width and
thickness, the general length is twelve feet ? The proportion of other lengths is
very small.

Should it be determined to lay a duty on North American deals, have you at all
considered the manner in which it would be best levied on importation into this
country, with a due regard to the protection of the revenue and the convenience
and accommodation of the importer? lam inclined to think by tale would be the
best mode of levying the duty, inasmuch as very considerable delay would take
place in measuring each parcel of deals, and a considerable charge be incurred
thereby.

You are of opinion that to ascertain the duty by tale would be preferable to the
conversion of the deals into cubic measure? lam of that opinion.
Is it the practice in Canada to cut what are termed deal ends for the purpose of
broken stowage? In the manufacture of deals, a considerable quantity of deal ends
will always be made, these are shipped for broken stowage.
In the regulation of the duty, to what lengths sliould deal ends be extended in'
your judgment? To about six feet in length.
Therefore if deal ends were admitted at a lower duty, as is now the case, in your
opinion that would be sufficient for the protection of the manufacturers ?—I should
think so, at and under six feet.

In the event of a longer length being so denominated, would that lead to any
abuse or improper advantage? In that case I think it ought to be charged as
a deal.

Are you at all acquainted wit!) the stave trade of Canada? lam in the habit of
importing a considerable quantity of staves.

Is it of considerable importance to Canada ? Very great, I conceive.
What are the descriptions of staves usually shipped from Canada ? Pipe staves,
hogshead staves, and puncheon staves, •

To what markets are they usually shipped ? The longer description of staves,
pipe Mid hogshead staves, principally to the London market; puncheon staves
have of late become an atticle of great import into Liverpool.
Ate thote the only markets ? There is generally a small quantity of staves
shipped to other ports as broken stowage.
Are not a considerable quantity of staves shipped from Canada for our West.
India colonies? A very large quantity of puncheon staves.
Are those in the rough, or dressed? Some dressed, some undressed, princi-
pally undressed.
Can you state to the cominittee, the dimensions of the different description of
staves ? The pipe staves are reduced to the standard of five and a half feet, long,
by one and a half inch thick ; the puncheon staves are generally by count.
Do you refer particularly to white oak staves? I refer to white oak staves.
Are not red oak staves also sent both to the British and the West Indian
markets ? They are.
Is the proportion of red oak staves considerable ? No, the proportion of white
oak staves is much greater.
Can you state to the committee, the prices that were current during the last
season in Canada, for the different descriptions of staves you have mentioned ?
Yes, I can ; pipe staves were from 371. 10s. to 401. per 1,000 ; standard puncheon
staves 121. 10s. per 1,200.
Can you state the rates of freight that were paid for staves as cargo ; from
Canada to Great Britain during the last season ? lam not acquainted with the
rates of freight when brought as cargoes.

Mr. Charles Churchill, called ; and examined.

Be so good as to state what your business is ? My business, at present, is that
of a broker employed in the sale of deals and timber.
Are you extensively engaged in that business? Yes, I believe as much as moat
of those gentlemen are. Twelve years before that, I was engaged in the foreign
wood trade, in the Norway wood trade particularly, In the house of the Danish
consul.

Are you employed in the sale of all descriptions of deals and timber ? Of all de.
scriptions of deals and timber that come under that head.
Has the trade with British North America, in deals and timber, extended very
much of late years ? The trade, within the last four years, I think particularly,
has extended very considerably.
To what cause do you attribute that extension ? I attribute that extension
more particularly to the circumstance of deals and timber from the colonies, coming
in,at greater advantages than those from the North of I:Wive, in consequence of
their exemption from duties, the price at which they have come into the market
has not been such as to induce any extraordinary shipment, for within the last two,
years particularly, they have fallen very much in value, which I attribute to an
extensive importation ;to an importation beyond the necessary demand. The
im-
portation of the soft pine in particular, has been so great as to affect every other
article in the market, so that there is scarcely an article which can maintain a fair
relative price.
What effect do you conceive would be produced upon the importation of
tithber from the colonies, provided a duty were imposed upon that timber, or a less
duty charged upon Baltic timber than at present? I conceive that a regulation of
that kind would go to the effect of checking the excessive importation we have, at
present, of thatarticle, for which there is not a concurrent demand ; the soft pine has
come over in great quantities, because there has been no duty upon that, and their
peace-freights have been so low as to admit of its coming in much greater quantities
than the demand could take off; it has therefore been forced into consumption, at
prices much below its f'air importation value, and that is still the case.
What was the duty upon Baltic timber, previous to the year 1810? Previous to
the year 1810 the permanent duty was 11. Os. 6d. a load; the war duty Gs. 10d.
making a total of 11. 7s. 4d. a load.
What was the duty imposed in 1810 ? By the Act of the 15th of June, 1810,
I see the duties were then doubled, making a total of 21. 14s. Bd. a load.

What was the cause assigned for doubling the duties at that period? I believe
the cause assigned was, that the foreigners in general got a much greater value for
their goods, and that it would be advisable to allow the importation from the co-
lonies, as a check upon that.
The double duties were then established as a sufficient protection for the British
colonies to carry on a trade in competition with the Baltic? No doubt of it;
believe it was then stated- by Mr. Rose, in bringing that Act into the House of
Commons, that the tonnage of shipping employed in the wood trade was 428,000
tons, of which 338,000 was fort ign : that the measure he then brought in would
tend to encourage the colonies, and enable them to take a greater proportion of
the home manufactures, in lieu of the timber they would supply ; that vessels to the
north of Europe generally returned in ballast, whilst they would take out cargoes
to the colonies.
What is the present duty upon Baltic timber ? The present duty is 31. ss. per
load.
Upon what ground was the additional 245. imposed, beyond the duty that was
considered necessary for protecting the trade in competition between the British
colonies and the Baltic? Ihe only duty that has been since imposed, was in the year
1813, I think, which was an additional duty of 25 per cent. on all duties of customs,
not relating particularly to the timber trade, and without any particular reference to
that trade, simply, I believe, as a matter of revenue, that was by an Act passed on
the 15th of April, 1813 ; then the war duty, which should have ceased at the exPi;
ration of six months after the definitive treaty of peace, was afterwards coOtintle'
from something like the same motive, the necessity of upholding the revenue.
Hit were now in the contemplation of the committee to recommend such an al-,
teration of the duties upon Baltic timber, as to bring the timber trade with the
British colonies in America on a fair competition with the Baltic timber, upon
what principle do you conceive the duty should be so altered, as to admit of that
competition ? Provided the qualities of the timber imported from the North of
Europe and that from our possessions in America could be assimilated, I conceive
it would be a very easy matter; for it would simply be to take an average of the
freight from the colonies, and the average of the freight paid from the North 61.
Europe, and to put such a countervailing duty as would do away with the distasee
or the disadvantage the colonies laboured under in that respect; but as there is
very material difference in the qualities of the timber imported from both placesf
I consider that a duty of that kind would altogether prohibit the importation of
wood from the colonies; the duties at present are 655. per load, perhaps as far as
reducing that to 50s. or leaving it as it is, and laying 15s. per load on American
timber, would not tend altogether to prevent the trade from the colonies in wood,
but it would materially lessen the amount imported.
To what extent do you think it would diminish the amount imported ? can
last
only refer to London ; looking to the extensive importations we have had the
two years, I think it would lessen it to the amount of half.
Have you any means of ascertaining, from your own practice, at what proportionate
rates American timber will sell in competition with Baltic timber, when there is
only, a due proportion of each in the market? I have a memorandum of some
particulars in that respect, and I find that in the years 1817, 1818, and 1819, the
relative price of the yellow pine with Memel timber was something like two thirds,
little more or less, the relative value in the market. I have here a statement of the
prices; perhaps I should previously observe that in the years preceding
mentioned, the years 1814, 1815, and 1816, when the importation of America!
pine timber was a good deal interrupted in one way and another, the prices were
relatively much higher than in the succeeding years, when the importation
greater. I find in the year 1814 we were selling Memel timber at 101. a loa
.n!
we had comparatively no American pine timber in the market. In the year 181!
we sold Memel timber at 91. per load; red pine at 81. 10s.; yellow pine a''
81. 10s. ; Memel deals at 291. per hundred standard; and pine deals at the same
time at 311. 10s. per hundred standard.
[The witness delivered in the account, which was read as follows :]
Timber per load. those I have

,~ ~~

January - - Memel. Red Pine. Y•Pine.
1814 - - /. 10 0 - -
1815 • - - - 9 0 - 8 10 0 - --
1816 heavy stocks - 6 0- 5 10 0- 5 0
1317 steady - - 6 0 - 5 5 0 - 410
1818 improving- - 6 5 - 6 0 0 - 5 0
1819 full - - - 615 - 6 2'6 - 410
18t0 bad - - - 6 0 - 5 5 0 - 315
1821 bad - - - 6 0 - 415 0 - 3 3
Deals per Standard.

1814
1815

January -

- Memel.
- - - 1. 29 0 -
- - - - 29 0

Pine.

- :3l 10

1:316 heavy stocks - 20 0 - 22 0
1817 steady - -21 0 - 18 0
1818 improving - 22 0 - 17 I()

Norway. Spruce.
- 32 0 - 34 0
- 340 -

- 25 0 -

1819 full

- 24 0 - -
- 24 0 - 21 a
- 24 0 - 21 0
- 22 0 - 16 10
- 20 0 - 16 0