The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The House met at-aboutlour; aud, as usual,
*as engaged a considerable time upon Private
Bills. • . ,
Mr. Alderman SMITH obtained leave to tiring in a Bill for
repaiririglilaCkfriars' Bridge.
Mr. 14013 HOUSE presented a Petition from the Inhabitants
of the, Parishes of St. dames; Westminster; -St. George,- Hano-
ver-square i and St. Marylebone, drimplaining.uf the conduct
of a Water Work Company. The Hun. Member observed,
that he knew many of the 'inhabitants were at the present.
moment in want. of their usual supply of water in consequence
of the conduct complained-of.
Mr. M. V. TAYLOR defended the conduct of the Water
Work Ciinifi.anies, The subjectin question, he said, had been
under judicial inquiry in a Court-of Law, and it was not in
the power of the 'House to'interfere..
Mr. FREEMANTLE stated his knowledge that many of the
inhabitant's of the petitioning' Parishes' 'were -in want of this
most essential necessary' for domestic comfort.
The Petition was ordered to he referred to the Committee
of Inquiry into the conduct of the'Water -Cotitpanies.,
Mr. DENIk/N'preSetited a petition. from certain [nimbi-
tants of the' Parish of St. Mary, Newiugtorti. against the New-
ington -Vestry Bill. - 'Thar petition, the Hon. MeMber stated,
was Signed'by 1965 persons while that in faiour of the Bill
was signed by only 106 persons.
Mr. C. CAL:ITEM' supported the petition, and .observed
that as the parish -contained 3000 houses, the 'petition
in favour of the Bill conlii nut be—sopposed to express
the opinion of the parish. He mentioned this circumstance,
that the House might-be induced to give the-prescor petition
due weight' when the Bill in- questiOn should cows. under
consideration. He underitood- the second- reading would, be
moved this night ; and lie certainly should move as- an
amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day six
months.
The petition was read-Orra ardered to lie an the table.
Mr. CURW EN presented a petition from the inhabitants of
Workington against the Education Bill.—Ordered to lie un
the table. .

Si; ROBERT WILSON presented a Petition from an indi-
vidual Inhabitant of St. Mary. Newington. against the Vestry
Bill of that Parish. The Gallant General said he was satis-
fied that the Bill complained of was an innovation-upon the
rights of the parishioners. It was an c.z• post facts, law in the
nature of a Bill of Pains and Penalties.

After a few words from Mr. Seijeant ONSLOW, and from
Sir K. WlLtigN in explanation, tl►e Petition was read; .and
ordered to lie on thelable."

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Mr. BURRELL! presented a Petition from certain Land-
'holders of Su.sex, cow plaining of the present Agricultural
Distress.—Ordered to lie on the table.

Lord C. MANNERS presented a similar Petition from cer-
tain Lanitholitcrs of Cambtidgi.. -•

Lord 'MILTON supported the petition. He contended'that
if a Committee Abut& be appointed on this subject, it should
he entirely unrestricted.--q Hear, hear would go far-
ther, and say, the attention of that emininttee should be par-
ticularly directed to the state of the taxation which opPressed
the agricultural interests. He contended that the mea-
sure of the resfriration of cash payments had the necessary
effect of restricting the circulation of the country, and
hrnce it was impossible that in the present state of things
the same priees could be obtained fur corn as in former
years. If, therefore,
_the farmer has to get any relief at
all, it could only be effected by diminishing the burthetts of
taxation which now pressed on him—(Hear, hear, hear 1.).—
He contended further, that the tlistreis of the farmer at pre-
sent did not proceed_ from the ,inetlicirncy' of the law, and
that lie could oe relieved only by the reduction of the taxa-
tion. Heslid not mean to say that the burthen should be
shifted front the Agricultural Interests to any other class of
the community. He was.aWare that all clastes suffered, and
the interests of all ought to be consulted by reducing. if pos-
sible, the interest on- the National Debt, and paring down the
general expences of the Country.
Mr. CRIPPS contended that the chief cause of the present
Agricultural distress was the extraordinary crop of last sea-
son. Heusi it arose that the price of corn was diminished.
It was this reduction of the price of the commodity that
caused the diminution:of the circulation, and it wits not, as
the Noble Lord contended, the dimiuuti ~,, of circulation that
caused the law price of corn. He tecominended a tax on the
transfer of stock as a means of :relieving the pressure of tax-
ation on all other classes. . .

Mr:IVESTERN said, that the increased burthrn of the
people had rendered nugatory the measures which had been
devised for the "benefit of the Agricultural interest. He con-
tended, that the necessity of the case required a reduCtion in
the expenditure of the country.
Mr. PEEL said, that he would not now etiter into a defence
of the Bill which' he had the honour to jolt-mince, as an early.
,day haft been appointed for the whole'discussion of the subject.
He begged only to be considered as not acquiescing in any of
the arguments which lia'd been, he thought, rather irregularly
introduced 'npun • the presentation of this and some other
Petitions against the Currency
Mr. A. BARING would follow the example of the Right
Hon. Gentlemany'and notenter into the question of the cur-
rency now, hot he would take this opportunity of:giving
notice, that,lie would move an amendment to the motion of
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given notice, Ow
effect of which motion would be to accelerate the operation
of the Currency Bill. The object of hit amendment wou!d
be to send the subject once more to a Committee up stairs.,--
(Hear, hear!)
Sir C.'BURRELL contended, that it- would be a material
alleviatien of the general burihens, if a tax were imputed on
the monied property of the country. He stated as an in-
stance of the manner in which Corn Laws were evaded. that
a considerable quantity of corn was smuggled through the
Isle of Man.
Lord MILTON explained. lie stated, that in his part of
the country he never remembered to hate seen so deficieut.a
crop.—The petition was laid 'on the table.
Sir G. ROBINSON presented a similar petition irons the
County of Northampton.—Laid mi the table.
NEWINGTON SELECT VESTRY BILL.
Mr. H. SUMNER moved the Order of the Day for • the
second reading of the Newington Select Vestry Bill.
Mr..PLUNKEPT said, the-re was an order which stood for
that night, which had excited much anxiety (the. Catholic
Committee),'hut which, from the course that was to be taken,
was not likely to occupy many niinutes. •He begged•the Hon.
Member for Surrey, therefore, to postpone the-Bill, of which
he was about to move the second reading.
Mr. HOLME SUMNER said, be felt some difficulty
on !the snbject, but he was willing to postpone it to
Monday, if it might t hen •have precedence.
• After a few observations from the SPEAKER,

1%1;:lf0,11E SUNINEIt agreed to postpone the second
reading of the Bill until Mon,:ay'next.

THE•CATHOLIC CLAINF

Upon the Speaker's calling for Mr. Plunkett,
there was a loud cry of c' bar, bar, order, order,"
occasioned by the number of Members who were
pressing into the louse.
Mr. PLUNIiETT, in rising to move the Order of
the Day for the House to resolve' into a Com-
mittee, to consider the case of the Catholics, ex-
pressed his intention to follow the course adopt-
ed on a former occasion, when the House thought
proper to accede to the appointment of a Com-
mittee upon the same subject. In agreeing to
go into the Committee, it was not to be under-
stood, he observed, that any Member was bound
in any degree to the Resolutions which were to
be proposed, or to any measures which might be
founded upon them. Every friend to the peace
and harmony of the empire must have been pecu-
liarly gratified by the good temper and spirit
in which this question was discussed by those
who opposed it upon a former evening.—(Hear,
hear, hear :)--It was clear indeed, from that tem-
per and spirit, that there was no disposition iu
any quarter to give S to the Catholics any
thing like unnecessary or vexatious opposition.
But it was a question which ought to be calmly
and deliberately considered, involving, as it did,
the civil rights of an important part of our fellow
subjects, and connected, as it .was, with the
vital interests of the country. With a view to
afford still further means for such consideration,
he wished to have the object of those who were
friendly to the Catholit Claims distinctly under-
stood, and therefore he should propose certain
Resolutions explanatory of that object. Those
_Resolutions., when promulgated, would serve to
guard against any niisapprehension ; and also) lie

hoped, to remove any
,preludicea
exist upon this subject. •If thd;nouse should
pleaSe to go into the Comthittee. arid agree "tfi'th
-Resolutions; it was his intention. to wave that
they should be printed ; and as the House would
have suflicient, time to examine their Character
and tendency in the interval; he meant .to bring
forward a, Bill- founded upon them on Tuesday
next,: when he should move to' have it read
a first time, and .then. :ordered to- be'. printed.
—As the Bill
.would soon be printed, Mem-
bers would, have ample, opportunity toex-
amine • its -provisions before_: Monday week,
when he meant to move the; second read-
' ing 431 it.—.l.le; hoped that .this arrangement
would- suit the convenience of the HOuSe, and
prove agreeable to all parties. The Resolutions
which .he had to,propose,we.re founded upon the
resolution of Wednesday, that the house should
resolve itself into a committee,of.the Whole House
to consider the state of &law, by which oaths
or .declarations are required to be.tak'en or made,.
as qualifications_ for the enjoyment of oflices„.Or
for the exercise-of civil functions, so far as the
same affeci: his Majesty's Roman, Catholic sub-
jects,:or whether it. would, -be
.expedient in any
and what manner to alter and modify the
,Same,
and .subject. to ,what provisions. ,or regulations ?
These. resolutions, indeed, contained a distinct
explanation of the state of the law, while the last
recognised the justire, and :propriety of making
provisions for the security of. the ..Pcotestant
establishment. Here the .Right Hon. Gentleman
read the Resolutions which he meant to propose
in the Committee as follows :

1. That it,appears to this Committee, that by certain Acts
passed in the Parliaments of Great Britain_and Ireland respec-
tively, certain declarations -and affirmatiOns are required to be
inade as qualifications ,for the enjoyment of certain offices;
franchkes, and civil rights therein mentioned.
2. That such parts of said Oaths as -require a Declaration to
be made against the belief Of Transubstantiation, or that 'the
invocation or:adoration of the Virgin Mary, or any other Saint,
and the sacrifice of the mass, as used in the Church, of Rome,
are superstitious and idolatrous, . appear to this Corinnittee to
relate to opinions. merely speeulative and. dogmatical;: not af-
fecting' the allegiance or civil dtsty of the subject, and that the
same may.therefore safely be _repealed.
a. That it appears to this Committee, 'that in several Acts
passed in the Parliaments of -Great Britain-and Ireland respee'-'
tively, a certain Oath, commonly called the Oath of Supre-
macy, is required to be taken, as a.qUidifiaition for the enjoV-
ment of certain offices, franchises, and civarights,therein men-
tioned.
4. That in the said Oath- and Declaration is contained, that
no Foreign Prince, Person, Prelate, State, or Potentate, 'ought
to have any jurisdiction, power, spperiority, pre-eminence; or
authority, Ecclesiastical or Spiritual, within these Realms,
5. That it appears to this Committee, that scruples are enter-
tained
by his Majesty's Roman Catholic Subjects' with respect
to taking the said Oath, merely on account of the word " Spi-
ritual"being inserted ierein, and that, fur the purpose of re-
moving such scruples, it would be expedient to declare the
sense in which the said word is used, according to the injunc-
tion issued by Queen Elizabeth, in the first year of her reign,
and recognized in the Act of the Ath of her reign, and which,
as explained by the 117th of the Articles of. the Church of Eng-
land, imports merely, that the Kings
.of this Realm should'go-
vern all estates and degrees, committed to their " charge by
God, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal; and restrain
with the civil sword the stubborn and evil doer.
That it is the opinion of this Committee,. that such Act
of Repeal and Explanations shonld be accompaniawith SCCII
EXCEPTIONS AND ILEGULAT toNs as may be found necessary
for preserving unalterably. the Protestant SucceSsion to the
Crown, according to the Act for the further limitation of the
Crown, and better, securing the Rights and Liberties of the Sub-
ject, and for maintaining inviolate the Protestant Episcopal
-Church of England and Ireland, and the doctrine, government,
and discipline thereof, and the Church of Scotland, and the
doctrine, worship, government, and'disciPline thereof, as the
:same are by law respectively established.
.The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by moving,
that the Speaker should leave the Chair.
Mr. PEEL said,
.that although he should cer-
tainly give his opposition to the measure, he could
assure the Hon. Gentleman that he would not
,throw any vexatious obstacles in bis way, be-
cause he was perfectly convinced that such op-
position was never effectual. With the :Reso-
lutions, as far as he could collect. their meaning
from their being read, be did not concur; but
as the object of the Ilon. Gentleman was, to ob.
tain a more formal recognition of them, and as it
was understood that auy acquiescence . to their
being _agreed to in. the s Committee would not
preclude any Member from opposing. the prin-
ciple on a future occasion, he would not ob-
ject to the, Speaker leaving the Chair. lie hoped
he- might be allowed to say a few words, by
way of checking the sanguine expectations of
those who might raise those expectations, and
at the same time to call to the recollection of
those who were the most interested, that when
at-a former period the house went into a Com-
mittee upon the subject, by a far larger majority
than voted the night ,before the lust, and:the
Clause was proposed for the introduction of Ca-
tholics into Parliament, that Clause was nega-
tived. In the opposition he_ should give to the
Bill, be would endeavour to preserve tltt utmost
temperance and moderation, although' he should
be decidedly hostile to it ; and in doing this, lie
hoped that-temperance would not he inconsistent
with firmness. In all the material parts of
,the
Resolutions he should be at variance with the
Honourable Gentleman. lie. should, however,
endeavour so .to conduct himself, that if the
Bill should be successful, it should not be
converted into a subject of unnecessary triumph ;
or, •in case. of its .failure, that it. might not
occasion .feelings of exasperation. .{Hear, hear !)
Sir GEoIuBILL expressed himself decidedly
hostile to the Resolutions, and complained that
the notice given for the second reading vas un-
precedentedly short. It had been fixed .for
Monday se'nnight ; and he should certainly move
for a call of the House upon-.the day the second
reading- took place. it was absolutely necessary.
that the whole of the constituents of the country
should know in time that the house w4pabout to
enter upon so important a discussion. lie would
not oppose the Mouse geing.into the Committee,
but he should certainly persevere in his opposition
to the Bill. _ _ . . .

Sir J. NEWPORT said, he .could not_ object to
the call of the House, but it ought to he, under-
stood whether any obstacle would be 'thrown in
the way of the first reading• It would be better
for the Hon. Baronet to move the. call of the
House now, reserving to himself the; power of
enforcing it .if he thought proper. In avowing
his opposition, he was sorry the Hon. Baronet
had not followed the excellent example set him
by the Hon. Member for Oxford ; who,: while he
manfully, expressed hisintention, had at the same
time tempered' it by an assurance of. his mo-

deration.
Mr..'II4ONTAGUF: expressed .his determination to oppose
the Bill in all its stages.
Lord luzoN observed) that as so much importance was

attaol6ll to the second readinit , thist th fit-51
readitte, wouhl; norhe • • ••
ent4,:taintol the opinidri As the Nolie
Lord is ho hail f 31141' sat • •
Sir GEOilliEI-E-111.1..1tAti to mire for the tall
of the',l-lonse thott . ,
Mr. •1-11)1.M,F. SL'MST.It, tatto,± iinpartanee the
subjett into con tidertiti4l, su...{ge,ted whether
(law alight Ite,conernietitiy fixeo fpr the tec,,,t reidint;.
PLITNNk..I,7*WI„ihe had:fieed NI,o/vhty .ie'nnight for
the sili..n'd-rt,at!ii4`.'iiii•aitSe -14 cont:vived thAt th#t woitid
hare been most ttini-ertient.—lfiteltint,llooveil nny suec•edin!,
day in the week, .it would ph 'dna ha.ve fiery. oilyti to the
same objection:. ....
Mr. tV.AVYNN thought It t-oftl,ll i
te rnpos,ill', f,r i'oe ques-
tion to hr di:cussed qfuring.tlie pteent .n.cntt:i. • Ile hopcd.
Gentlemen. watad-teel it to be their alutyto atieno.,•atol.eun..
sider he'ttiostiotportatit concern, in V.ieir own connties.of nu
acCpont, when put in competit.on tv'...tit this ;teat Constitu-
tional goestiiin. • • • •
S ttl,loitGE . HILL propoted.thit the sec,nd reading of
the Ilill .41toold• he agrd for Monday fortnight:
Lord' CASTI.EREAGII proposeil that the lion.. Baronet
•ghanlii Hi.,ee fur the Call of the House thivd'oy foOLight:
Tie& Hunse then went Into the Connuittee,,when t :la Trsfi•
Int,ions before stated wire agreed to. The House tesunied,.
when • • ' • '

.......
Mr. BROGT)EN•reported progress, ang when he was about
to na►ne a rlay for bringing up the itepu,d, several Mensbets
exelai•alArl N.w; now! , •
. . .

Mr WYNN thought that the Ikport might be brought tip
now:

... .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE ;I:ER ssid lie saw no
ohjection• to the brining up of the Repot t now, as it was the
general understanding that the Resolutions passed merely
pro fiirma.• ' . .
'1 he Report was then brought up, and each of the Resolu-
tions living read twice, was ;weed to. ,
Mr 'PLUNKErf then obtained• leave to bring in a. Bill
fou ded on the aforesaid' Resolittions, and the following Mem-
bers were appointed to bring, it in :--•-
Mr: Plunkett, • • Lord Viscount Palmerston,
Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Wm.,Wyon, .
Mr-,•Tierney; . Sir John N ew!oirt,
Mr C. Geant, Sir Hen. y P tnell, or
Sir James Mackintosh, Dr. Pniilimore.
Mr. Wilberforce, • . .
. . CALI, OF THE HOUSE.
Sir GEORGE HlLLethen moved, that the House be called
over this day fortnight. •.- • , .. . . . .
Mr. ABERCROMBIE was surprised at the opposition made
to the proceeding of the Bill. • When he recollected the able
manner in which this question had been ,introduced and-dis-
cussed, be did thick the opposition vexatious. •
The CHANCELLOR'of the EXCHEQUER thought that
too early a day•could not he fixed •lor. the decision .of the
Honse on t
vhis inipottant.questioni He had heard with ad-
mirst imp the able discuseion that had taken place, and he was
pkirsnaded that tile question 'could uot. be satisfactorily de-
cided si,ithout the full attendance of Members. The question
was then pot and
,agreed to.
GRAMPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.

On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the
]louse went into a Cbunnittee fur the further con.;
sideration of this Bill. _ _

After the reading :of several clauses had been
gone through; Mr. $. Won•ray. objected to the
propoSed qualification for voters in the Borough
of Leeds. Ile thought 'being' a householder of
the value of 101. a year was too low. When the
House decided upon giving the Elective Franchise
to a great town, bethought they ought to con-
sider the principle of qualification, lie would
'restrict the members in proportion to the extent
of the popnlation. At the -slime time he would
be disposed to give them a body of electors suf-
ficiently inimerous ; and he thought that if the
qualification were restricted to `2Ol. real Value,' it
would include -every decent tradesman, and leave
the number of voters to ' the amount of three
thousand. For instance, he
.would not heSitate
to say that he objected to such an extensive dis-
tribution of the franchise as Was In' Westminster.
This was his view of it ; but he would not offer
the suggestion as' an' amendment at present. He
would defer that to another stage 'of the Bill.
Lard ;11111.ToN hoped the • Committee would.
allow him Co express his satisfaction at the pre-
sent mode of reform. ile considered' it one of
the great advantages of this bill, that it was
founded on constitutional principles, and for this
reason he preferred the bill as it now stood, to the
plans which had .been.suaD gested of giving the
franchise to one of the ridings of York, or to the
hundreds adjoining Gramponnd. differed
both from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wortley) 'and
his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) on the sub-
ject of the'. qUaliffcation for votes in Leeds. He
would not say that we noW possessed so Mitch
more wisdom than our ancestors that we should
depart from the 'practice they had. esta-
blished in giving time elective franchise to boroughs.
He considered it (ionid be much wiser and safer
that there shduld be no other qUallfication than.
what was usual in scot and lot boroughs. rt
should be recollected that the other classes re-
quired protection, besides those who posseSsed the
great property of tile country. The interests of the
poorer orders required 'to be attended to as Well us
the richer classes of society,
,They were those who
suffered most by the distresses of the Country. In
sanctioning this*Bill, whiCh mightbe considered as
the first of a series for extending the elective fran-
chise to Boroughs, they ought not to lay down such
a principle. 'By extending 'the franchise, 'they
would give a greater security against corruption
than could be found in small .Boroughs. It W-as
immaterial to hiin whether the number of elec-
tors in. Leeds should he three thousand or six
thousand ; but he :thought it would not be deal-
ing fairly with them if they were not placed on
the same footing as all other Boroughs. 'lie should
therefore object to any sum being named as a
.qUalification.
Sir It. 'WILSON- defended the principle of ex-
tending the elective franchise in this case, as in
ail' Other Boroughs. WeStminster had been al-
hided to, as objectionable in its system. Now
he thought the seleCiion of that place was most
unfortunate ; for the most disinterested feeling
was there evinced in Ole choice of Representa-
fives. 'ln the Tliice -which he represented, his
first election—though he tad to oppose long pos.,
session, 'great respectability, and private worth—
the expencea *of the election did not exceed 7001.;
and on the second it did not - exceed
.300/. Ile
was 'for an extension of the franchise to all
Householders,. as in other Boroughs.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the House must,
by' this time, the subject having 'been so repeated-
ly before them, be fully- in possession of the
Merits of:the Bill, 2.nd would really prefer that
the lion. Gentleman (Mr. S. :Wortley) should
make his opposition' now.
Mr. STCART-WoferLEv could assure the Gal-
lant General (Sir. R. Wilson) that corruptions
prevailed' quite as little among his constituents,
is•amono the; electors of the bbrough which the Gallant General represeuted.—' Ifear !)
A s. to the principle of Representation, he admitted
that their views on this subject by no means co-
incided, ,for he was afraid that the ditfeiience'
between the Gallant General 'and himself was
a radical difference.—(A laugh.)--That lion.

„ •
;.: 4 A i
mdmber's priumpie of repre!;enation NV a 3 numJ
begs ; his (Mr. S. Wortley's) ,vas itttll,er,, property,
The CH A 1 it.)l .1 NAtsked what the Ifon..Menther
for Yorkshire 11;:ealit to move. • ~ ..

W911:171.ET moved .that the Lord" twin=
,ty"
.beso'astitutefi for the-word 6' .tel4"..before.
pounds;" in the clause relating to the qtte.h..ll:
cation—The question Was then put.
: Sir ROBER2 .explained.--.-When the
nom Gentleman. said/he was desirous that pro
perty.only. should. he feprese.iaktis he..cdght to
haVe• remembered that labonr_ was pr.operty,-,-,
(Heat.!):=Ahat every workman paid in- taxes
At the rate of 101. out of .18/4. and that tic pros
portion of of. 200. days; labour mit of
300 was mortgaged;
Mr; S.:Wo UTI.Ey said that now it appeared the.
gallant General's principle bordered very much
upon one of Uni'versal Suffrage ; and therefore
he was still at issue •with him. .

Mr; THOMAS COURTENAY, after some general
objections to the Bill, observed that there never,
was an Act of Parliament - passed for erecting
Scot and •Lot Borough.-----(Hear, hear, from the
Oppusition.):—lf he was mistaken in this propo.
sition, he - begged pardon of the House ; but
althost all the acts upon the subject had beep
enumerated by the Noble Lord (J. Russell) oti
the first introduction of the measure into the
House; and from the same authority, he had un•
derstood that the Act of Henry VIII. applied
the same principle to all the new Boroughs as
had previously. applied to ,the old ones.. Ile
amid only say, upon the subject of corruption;
that the inhabitants of the City of. Westmin.,
ster were most grossly calumniated, if. there
had not been a vast deal of notorious corniptioa
among them-:—(A laugh)—at former • elections—,
(he did not of coarse speak of the lastelection, or of
its present members in Parliament) occasioned by
circumstances,to guard against which the motion
of his Hain. Friend, the Member for Yorkshire,
was calculated. There certainly in ‘Vestmin.,
ster had been this sort of corruption— that,where
rates or taxes had been in arrears they had been,
paid up for a party, in order to enable him to
vote. He should support the Amendment, that
the qualification be '2Ol.
Mr. HunsoN GURNEY We understood to op-
port the principle of the• Amendment, but object
to its application in the present case.

Mr. BARING did not consider it of much
portince how any two Membets were. added to
the representation : He spoke of this as a general
position ; but, as a.precedent, they-should take
care to attach to the question of qualification that
importance which it deserved. In the exercise of
such a case certainly propertymust be considered in
perhaps the first place—in order to preserie the se-
curity of the social system. It would not be proper,
to take, as the French system of representation had
taken, property simply.and only as the basis ; for it
was to be seen that that had produced a total in-
difference in the people as to the right of elec-
tion, and as to the-manner .in which the represen-
tatives they returned discharged their duties in
the Parliament. There the House might remark
the defects of one system: in America they might
see those of the other system of representation :
both of which he considered to 'be equally in 'ex.
cess. Ile thought that any iMprovement in on
representation should proceed upon a
,prin
ciple something similar to that of the seleet
Vestry Bill., Let them found it upon a sort 0 '
graduated scale of property ; and let the loWest
qualification for a vote be 101 ; so that while
the poorer individual had his vote, three 'o e
four votes might be given to the more wealthy
one.—(Hear! from the Opposition.)--He differed
in some respects -from the gallant Gen, in the 4:.)-t
nervations that night made by hint ; but he rat-her
agreed with him that the last elections at West-
minster and Southwark were more remarkable for
purity, as regarded money, than others. There
was no great expenditure of money, but'a very
great expenditure of .nonsense,—(trear, and
laughter ;)—for every one knew that a person
who presented himself .as a Representative for
either of those places, must talk nonsense—
(Hear),—particularly if he were the popnlar Canes
didate, which he would be ashamed to hearafter•-•
wards hi another place.—(Hear, hear, and laugh-
ter.)—He must talk, not as if he were addressing.
himself to- gentlemen, or to persons of cotrimon
sense.—(Hear
..Sir It. Wit.soN rose to order. N- o lion. Mem.
her" hail a right to :say that another talked non.
sense.—(Laughter.)—For himself he had never
addressed nor could he stoop to address language
;to his Constituents of which he would be ashamed,
.to be reminded in another place.—(Cheers.)--
If the Hon. Gentleman would ever. attend meet-
ings Where the Hon. Members he (Mr. Barin,o
had alluded to spoke to their Electors, he might
have ample opportunity to correct his opinion.
The CHAIR3tAN-here interposed. It was rom-
petent for the gallant General to call. an Hon.
Member. to order in this stage, but not to make a
reply to speech.—(Hear!)
Mr. BARING was not at all alluding personally
to the Hon. and gallant General: He was in fa-
vour of raising Me qualification to 20/.
Mr. C. CAivrivr-bore testimony to the disinte-
rested conduct Of the electors of Southwark. -No
application, during the five contested elections
which he had stood for that borough,- had ever
been made to Alien for the .payment of rates or
taxes.—(Cheers.)
Mr. COKRTUNAT xplaiued. -
Lord MILTON strAgly deprecated the -.pine%
ple suggested by the lion. 'Gentleman (Mr: Bar-
ing). It would
,he better that the wealthy and.
the poor man should .go into the TownhaLl to-
gether,:and exercise the same franchise, by giv-
ing each his single'vOte,iccotding to his.own, con-
scientious fee,ling.--(Cheers.)—lf his Honour=
able Friend aiid Colleague!wonlcl give way, by
withdrawittg his Motion, which would not in the
least prejudice the general question he intended
to propose, he (Lord Milt* wouiii move to-omit,
byway of :amendment, all .the words down `to
" the sum of." .• .

After a few words frOth Mr. C. Vk
..'ynn, Mr.
6arittp„, and the'. Chairman, 'the qiiie,Stion‘
put, " that these words sthnd part ()Cale cianie."
Lord Aunioar, in supporting the orik6il
clause, expresSed his entire conviction, after tnuch

inquiry and reflection, to be friendly to the cause
of Parliamentary Reform.
MT. RICHARD MARTIN -disapproving every.:
part of the Bill, would support the increase' pro-
posed, in the amount of the qualification. With-
out inquiring whether the imputations thrown
out against the Electors-of Southwark and West-
minster were true or not, lie could not help ob-
serving that the opinions of the Hon. Members
for those places, and perhaps he might add for
Middlesex also, were not usually in accordance
-with those of the generality of the House. He
had. good -authority for saying that one of the
banking houses in Leeds contemplated the re-
moval of its establishment, if this Bill passed into
a law.—(Natne.)-7—Under existing circumstances
lie did not think it safe to name, nor would it be
safe for the gentry of Leeds to petition against
the Bill.

Mr. LOCKHART conteniled, in opposition to
Lord :Milton,, that all Boroughs were not origi-
nally scot and lot. lie was decidedly averse to
the amendment of the Noble Lord, though he
should not object to some mod6rate composition.
In this view, any change in the representation
ought to be bottorned•on property.

Lord M:LTON explained.
Sir It. WILSON reminded the Committee, that
in Southwark the voters were inhabitant house-
holders, paying scot and lot. - With regard to
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Gal-
way on the subject of the representatives for
Westminsler and Southwark, he could only reply
that he (Mr. R. Martin) was one of those
Whote praise is censure, and whose censure praise."
M% It. MARTIN said, that he rose to explain,
not to apologise, to the Hon. General. What he
asserted in the house he would assert any where.
In what he had stated he did not mean either to
criticise or to censure.

Mr. BROGDEN reminded the Non: Gentleman
that the Member for Horsham (Mr.'llurst) had
first caught his eye and ought to have pre-
cedence, excepting far explanation.—(Order,

chair.) .
Mc. R. MARTIN continued, that he would
strictly confine himself to explanation, though he
thought that a gentlenian was -entitled to some
indulgence in this respect) who had been told
that his praise was censure, and his censure
praise.—(Hear !)—The gallant General had to-
tally and radically misunderstood him : he had
never censured the conduct of the Members for
Southwark or Westminster; he had merely salcl
that in general their opinions were not in accord-
ance with the sentiments of the majority of the
House—(Hear D—lt was the easiest and safest
thing in the worldfor a man to bravado in the
Howe of CoMmons: he had no such intention;
he felt kindly towards the gallant General, but
if he had meant. to affront him, he would have
chosen a different place for doing so.
Mr. HußsTadverted to what had been done on
former occasions on the disfranchisement of Bo-
roughs ; those bils uniformly gave the right of
voting to freeholders of dos. It had been truly
said by the Noble Lord (Milton), that when the
House was creating a new right, it ought not to
overlook the poorer classes, who contributed so
much to taxation, and during periods of distress
suffered such severe Privations. Ile was there-
fore strongly in favour of the amendment to give
the right of voting to all who paid scot rand lot.

Lord r.ToN explained.
Mr. PEEL thought the enactment either of
201. or 101. as the limit arbitrary, and in some
views objectionable, and was unwilling to give the
inhabitants of Leeds-the mere shadow of popular
repres.entation. But even if the right of voting
vi..re confined to those who pay poor-rates upon
101., the number of electors would probably
not be less than 2,000 or 3,000. To open
a wider door he thought inex-pedient, and
he did not know that the better mode would
not have been to have transferred the writ to
the East-riding of Yorkshire. He was by no means
of opinion that it would be to the advantage of
Leeds to give an unlimited right of voting, be-
cause it was a manufacturing town, and a popular
election would form a most serious interruption
to those habits of industry, necessary for the suc-
cess of its trade. Perhaps the effect of the Noble
Lord's amendment, if carried, might be to re-
move branches of trade from Leeds to neighbour-
ing or rival towns. upon the whole, he was in
favour of the qualification being fixed at 201.

Mr. ABERCHOMBY. had wished that the writ
should be given to Yorkshire, but he had changed
his opinion in- this respect, from a feeling that
the transference of it to
.Leeds would secure to
manufactUring interest in that part of the
country a more dicect and effectual representation.
He should vote for the. proposition of the Noble
Lord (Milton), because he should thereby sup-
port a principle, and he objected to a limit of
either 101. or 201., as arbitrary and unconStitu-
tional.—Mr. PEEL explaitx.4.
Mr. MoNcx observed, that all were agreed in
principle, and differed' only in degree. The ob-
ject was to give to the inhabitants of Leeds a po-
pular form of election, and be supported the
amendment of the Noble Lord because it ad-
hered to long-established usage: The chiet.and
broad ground on which he would vote for the
amendment was, that it gave to a large, and par-
ticularly the poorer class, ali,interest in the Con-
stitution and, in the Representation.--Viea.r!)—
The great defect in the ConstitUtion was, that
the poor classes were not represented. lf! they
bad been- represented, the 'taxes would not. be
now so heavy oi•'so unequal.—(Hear !)—lt was
remarkable that the land-tax,. which affected not
the poorer class, was now the same as it had
been more than.a century back ; while the tax on
beer, the beverage of the._Poor, was quadrupled.
—(Hear !)
Lord CASTLEREA,9II made some objections to
the principle of the Bill, which he would, have
preferred had it .gOne to extend the Franchise to
County repreSentation, instead of a manufac-
turing Borough: He thought the representation
of manufacturing Towns; that which ought least
to be augmented, because it disturbed the indus-
trious habits of artizans, and.;gaye rise to danger
-and alarm. He was decidedly opposed, at all
events, to tie qualification by scot and lot, and
since the House had decided on transferring the
franchise to Leeds; he thought that the right of

voting should be confined to inhabitants who
rented houses of c2Ol. This he begged to be un-
derstood he did, although he would have much
preferred the principle of a district reform.

- After some further discussion between Mr. R.
Martin, Mr. Denman, Mr. W. Courtenay, and
Mr. Scarlett, Lord John Russell replied, and
the House divided upon Lord Milton's Amend-
ment, when there appeared—

For the Atnendin- ;nt 66
Against it
Majority
..... —......._,....._ ____ .

Mr. STUART WOitTI:EY then submitted his proposed
Amendment for limiting the right of voting to persons who
rented houses at the yearly rent of 201. On a division there
appeared—

For the Amendment l4B
Against it
Majority -54

The motion of Lord John Russell was of course negatived.
The CHAIRMAN then read the clause entitling the Elec.
tot s of Grampound who had nut been convicted of bribery to
vote for Knights of the Shire.
Mr. D. GILBERT strongly objected to this clause, as affect-
ing the respectability of the county freeholders by associating
the hiec•tors of Grampound with them. The Electors of
Grampound ought rather to be associated with the neigh-
bouring Borough of Tregony.
Mr. TIERNEY said that fears entertained of this hill fail-
ing in another place, vvontd be very Much strengthened by
disfranchising without any equivalent Electors who had not
been convicted of any offence. The Hon. Member bad no
objection to transfer the corrupted Electors of Grampound to
Tregony, while he objected so earnestly against associating
them with the numerous and respectable Freeholders Of the
County. Forty corrupt Electors might, according to the
Hon. Member, be with propriety associated with a small num-
ber of Electors, but not with a large number! He (Mr. Tier-
ney) could not help seeing, from what the Noble Lord (Castle-
reagh) had said, that the Bill would be opposed elsewhere.—
Ile should be very apprehensive of the fate of the Bill in the
Lords if 40 persons were disfranchised by it.
Mr. D. GILBERT explained.
Mr. C. WYNN supported the objection of Mr. D. Gilbert.
He considered a Corporation as an individual, and answerable
for every act of corruption by individual members of it.

Mr. H. MARTIN Made some remarks.
Lord J.-RUSSELL spoke• across the table in a tone which
made him inaudible in the gallery.
Mr.STIIART WORT LEY hoped, and most sincerely hoped,
that the Bill would pass both Houses.: and that it would not
be lost in the Lords, because its loss there would have the
effect of irritating persons to a very great extent.
The clause was negatived without a division.
Lord J. RUSSELL brought up a clause limiting the dura-
tion of Elections in Leeds to five days. •
Lord LOWTHER thought the time too shorts and con-
tended for ten days. .

Mr. Tierney, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Wynn, Mr. C. Calvert, and
Mr. Bright, supported the clause, and pointed out many evils
in protracted Elections.
The clause was allowed to form part of the Bill.
The Preamble was then read. _ _

M. P. COUR lESAY contended for the restoration of an
expression which had originally existed in the Preamble—
namely, that the disfranchisinent of Granipound made a defi-
ciency of two burgesses in the representation. The restora-
tion of this clause was necessary in 'order to disconnect the
Bill from any principle of Parliamentary Reform.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that any theory of a precise
number, such as Übs, being necessary, was contrary to the
history of Representation.
Lord BINNING urged the restoration of the expression.
Sir M..W. RIDLEY and Mr. WARRE argued in favour of
the Preamble ms it now stood.

Mr. W. COUR fENAY was for the representation.
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Brogden) here made some observa-
tions which escaped uc.
Sir RONALD FERGUSSON thought the conduct of the
Chairman was most improper in taking any part in the dis-
cussion, when he ought to have been as impartial as the
Speaker in the Chair.
Mr. B. BATHURST defended the Chairman, and argued
that the bringing up of the Report was not a matter of
course; and that, therefore, the Chairman was in order when
he said that it was net usual to act as had been proposed on
this occasion. _

Sir J. NEWPORT insisted that the Chairman had gone
beyond the line, since he had no right to give his opinion
beforehand upon a question that would afterwards arise.
Mr. BROGDEN stated, that all he had said was, that it
was unusual to report a Bill on the same day on which it was
committed. If the Hon. General had any complaint against
him, he hoped he would bring it forward before the House,
when he hoped he would be able to vindicate himself.
Sir R. FEItGUSSON said he of course spoke of the chair,
not of the individual who occupied it. But it had struck him
that when the Chairman addressed that (the opposition) side
of the House, by way of argument rather than ►n any other
way, that his conduct was improper.—(Hear, hear 1)
Mr. STUA.RT WORTLEY made some observations which
we did but hear.

Mr. IIROGDEN, having left the Chair, said be had a Bill
to report to the House when the House would be pleased to
receive the same, adding that he supposed that the proper way.
Some NIEMBER named Monday next, which was fixed ac-
cordingly.
The House then proceeded to the other Orders of the Day..
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL obtained leave to brine in a
Bill to enable one judge to open and adjourn a commission on
a circuit.

Dr. LUSHINGTON postponed till Monday his motion re.
girding Irish Masters in Chancery.
PUBLIC EXPENDITURE. .

Mr. HUM moved for a return of compensations and al.
lowances, amounting to 105,0001., granted to Commissioners,
Clerks, &c. formerly employed in the Civil Service of the
Navy, wit h a statement whether their offices had been abolished.
Mr. LONG objected to this motion being made in the
absence of the Gentlemen belonging to the Naval Depart-
ment. The Hon. Gentleman had no reason to complain of
any indisposition on that side of the House to refuse him any
intormation he had ever applied for. .
Mr. CREEVEY replied, that all the Gentlemen on the
other side must have beets aware of this motion, of which
notice bad been given, and which was announced in the Mi-
nutes.

Mr. BROGIYEN thought the Hon. Gentleman ought not
to have brought forward a motion of this kind, at a time
Gentlemen acquainted with the subject were not present.
Mr. HUME defended himself ,against the imputation of
attempting to take the House by surprize. He next moved
for the application of several other expences connected with
the Naval and Ordnance Departments. .
Mr. LUSHINOTON thought it quite impossible to furnish
the return required, and hoped that Mr. Hume would with-
draw his motion.

Mr. HUMS, after a few words, consented. • •
The Solicitor General's motion to enable any one Commis-•
sioner to open.and adjourn COmenissions upon the Circuits in
England, ss as postponed until Monday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of; and the
House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Cluck.