The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-27 00:00:00

THE FACTORY BILL.

On the motion that the House go into Committee on
the Factory Bill,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to move that the
order for committing the Factories Bill (No. 2) to a
Committee of, the whole House be discharged, for the
purpose of committing the Bill to a Select Committee.
The first few sentences of the Hon. Member were
scarcely audible on account of the rush of Members from
the Heuse. He asked the House to commit the Bill to
a Select Committee, because a very general' misunder-
standing prevailed among .all classes as to the effect
hich " the Ten Hours' Bill" would have on the wages
of the operatives. lion. Members in that House enter-
tained the most opposite and conflicting opinions on the
subject, and the working classes in Manchester and other
great manufacturing towns were of opinion that, so far
from depressing, the Ton Hours' Bill would have the
•ellect of raising their wages to a very considerable de-
cree. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State
for the Home Department presented a. petition, signed by
62 firms in Manchester, in which 30,000 workmen were
employed. The petition set ferth that the measure, if car-
ried, would_ cause a reduction of 15 to 25 per cent. in the
wages of workmen. The Right Hon, Baronet himself
was of opinion that the. Ten Hours' Bill would reduce the
wages of the operatives 18 percent. The Hon. Member
for Liskeard thought about 9 per cent. ; and Colonel
Torrens, in a pamphlet lately published, considered that
the Bill, if passed into a law, would reduce the wages of
those to whom it referred 25 per cent. In Sheffield,
sixteen of the trades had voluntarily reduced the hours
of labour. In some trades the reduction had been from
sixteen hours to eleven, in others to ten, and in some to
eight hours, accompanied by an increase of wages
amounting to 15 per cent, and an increase in the number
of hands employed to the amount of one in seven.—
(Hear. hear.) Now he did not think that what had
taken place in Sheffield might not be expected also to
take place at Manchester. They might in Sheffield
work twelve hours if they liked, but by combining
among themselves, they had carried their deter-
mination into effect, and the consequence had
been to raise their wages, and not to de
press them. Trade was not so brisk now in Shef-
field as it was a year ago, and yet by working fewer
hours employment was more general and wages were
better. That was not the only evidence he could ad-
duce. Similar evidence was given before Mr. Sadler's
Committee in 1832, which Committee made no report.
Now, he wanted to have a report on this point.- It the
working men were deluded, they should be disabused.
The Hon. Member then read from the evidence taken
before the Committee of 1832 an extract from the exami-
tuition of a Mr. Whiting, a manufacturer,. who said that
a Ten Hours' Bill would be of the greatest advantage,
and that it would not lower wages. When the people
worked the longest hours wages were lowest. Another
witness stated his opinion that wages would not remain
as they were with a Tea Hours' Bill, that they would
rather rise than fall. Mr. David Brook, of Leeds, was
of opinion that the masters would gain by regulating the
hours of labour, as it would destroy undue competition.
The Hon. Gentleman read other extracts to the same
effect, and the statement ofMr. Samuel Smith, of Leeds,
surgeon, who was of opinion that the reduction of the
hours of labour was necessary to the health of the opera-
tives, and would not lower their wages, but
the contrary. Mr. Oastler was examined before
that Committee, and gave smiler evidence, which he
was willing to repeat, as his opinions were
unaltered. Mr. Oastler was of opinion that in the first
instance the effect would be to depress wages a little,
but that- the masters would he obliged ultimately to
raise them. In 1841 there was another Committee ob-
tained by Lord Ashley, but that Committee, blinked
this question altogether, and made no report as to the
effect of short hours upon labour.—(Hear, hear.) Now.
if the House would consent to a Committee, he should
purpose to confine the inquiry to that question alone.—
(Hear, hear.) He was told that the Committee would
have the effect of hanging up the Bill for a year, but be-
thought it better for the credit of the House. and for the
interest of the operatives, that the Bill should be hung
up for a year than that it should pass with a twelve
hours' clause.—(Hear, hear.) The operatives, who
wished him not to press for the Committee, did so be-
cause they were led to believe that Lord Ashley would
carry his ten hours' clause. But every one in the House
knew that there was no chance whatever of that.--(Hear,
hear.) He begged the House to have this question of
wages decided before it passed the Bill. If the Com-
mittee was an impartial one he would bow to its deci-
sion, and he was sure, that if it decided against the opi-
nions of the operatives, the latter, however disappointed
they might be, would submit with more satisfaction than
at present. The Committee would put an end to the
unprofitable controversy that was going upon the sub-
ject and bring it to a conclusion satisfactory to the coun-
try, and beneficial both to capital and labour.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARE • said that in giving his support to
the motion, it would be expected that he, who
had given the strongest opposition to the principle which
his lion. Friend supported, should state at the earliest
opportunity the reasons for his concurrence. It would
not be supposed that he wished to retract the opinions
he had expressed, or by a side-wind to get rid of this
BilL As to the Noble Lord (Ashley) he gave him full
credit for the sincerity of his motives, and it was not too
much to ask the same credit for himself.—(Hear, hear.)
He approved of limiting the inquiry to this particular
point of evidence, which had never been fully examined,
and respecting which there was great
in difference of opi-
nion both in the House and the country.—(Hear,
hear.) There were reasons both in the House itself,
and out of it, which rendered it desirable that a Com-
mittee should be appointed. Two decisions had taken
place in the House opposed to each other, and it would
be difficult for the. House to retrace its steps without
new ground—(Hear, hear)—and out of the House any
retracing of its steps would be attributed to the worst
of motives, to the influence of the Government, and a
disposition in the House to sacrifice the working classes
to party purposes.-- (Hear, hear.) No decision
would set the question at rest. He had been
himself very severely handled by the Chartist portion
of his constituents—(Laughter)—according to the pre-
diction of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Duncombe) who was in
such matters a good prophet.— (Laughter.) He bad
told them that one-third of the people of Sheffield
thought the ten hours' theory could not be applied
to any trade which had to compete with foreigners.
They replied that they regarded the regulations of trade
as the only, way of preventing monthly gushes and fluctua-
tions, and to equalise labour, and that in some trades
they were working ten hours, in others eight hours, and
in some six hours; that wages had risen ; that the
middle classes had been benefited, and paupers taken
into employment.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Dun-
combe.) He had now confirmed his Hon. Friend's state-
ment—let him give the answer.—(Hear, hear, and a
laugh.) The system had been in operation only six
months, and he would show what had been the effect in
foreign trade. He met this morning Mr. Muntz, who
asked him, had his constituents all gone mad ?
(Laughter.) He answered, not all, but there were some
for whose sanity he would not answer.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Muntz then told him that he was in the habit of
sending to. Sheffield very good orders for the United
States. The other day he wrote to them to say that he had
a very large order, but he received for answer, that, in
consequence of the combination of the workmen, it could
not be executed, and the order was accordingly sent to
the Continent; and that important trade was most likely
lost to Sheffield for ever.--(Hear, hear.) He had re-
ceived a letter from Sheffield this day (as we under-
stood) describing the injurious effects which the combi-
nation had had on foreign trade. A foreigner came over
recently, to buy for the Turkish market, but he could
not give the prices, and. he went to -Berlin. Certainly
the articles were of an inferior kind, but the same heads
and hands which could make these articles would not
require a seven years' apprenticeship to rival us also in
the best. In his opinion, generally speaking, it was not
for.that House to interfere m such matters, but rather to
leave things to find their own level. But in the present
instance he thought it would be productive of the greatest
good if the two parties were brought fairly: together, and
if they allowed every single suggestion, however ini-
practicable, to be brought before a Committee for then
they would have such a mass • of evidence as milt carry.e
conviction to every mind, however much_ittno.tiew
been previously warped or prejudiced. W
with that
view he should go into Committee ;
it was that he should vote for a Commniutttetezhi„at
he
oar.
inions ahead
Ward) had altered any one°subject in y
expressed by him
a Committee would
classes. between
aloo£ . He
House. If be might useuPtlne termth
awffhord
tthlieerme ehadanshoLoofarmpatoriongmnuelotesstatonding
believeore
dtbe working lasses, ,were to honest and too
just when truths were fairly
eves satisfied that in a
brought before them not
ciittt them,ou be raenaddilyileproved that when capital
catotinnimiceitteeo"
was fettered workmen's wages must suffer. Capital.had
too long been stagnant in the country. When he saw
two of the largest establishments in the world deriving
no profit from their enormous outlay, he WWI
,aatisfied
that intense suffering must find its way among the ope-
rative classes. There.was the establishment of Messrs.
Fielden—the largest in cotton, and that of Messrs.
A ckroyd—the largest in woollen, which in three
_years
time had paid no
less a sum in -wages than 46%000Z, and
they • had simultaneously sent in returns to the ineoute-
tax.Commissioners, declaring that during that period
they had realised no profit. He must say he had too
high an opinion of the working classes to think they
would entertain the hope of any higher wages being
obtained by Legislative enactment, when facts and
figures were fairly brought before them. And for these
reasons it was that, without abandoning one opinion he
had advanced, he now felt it his duty to support the
motion for the Committee now sought for.
Sir J. GR.AHAM (who was almost inaudible) was
understood to say, that be must oppose the motion for a,
Committee on this subject more especially as he believed
such a step to be inimical to the real interest of the
working classes at the present time. In his opinion all
Committees or that House ought to_ be lipaitod to the
'discharge of certain functions, which could hardly be the
case in this instance, for the Committee would not be
gathering facts, but eliciting opinions—a duty.he humbly
believed much better assigned to the House itself. Be-
sides, he knew no instrument of delay so certain as a

Select Committee of that House, and in this instance
(Sir James Graham) was most anxious that delay, e, hick
answer no useful purpose, should be particularly
avoided.--{Hear, hear.) It should be recollected that
upon this subject there were antagonistic views strongly
entertained and vigorously acted up to, and even the
very Hon. Members who proposed and seconded the tau •,
tion for a Committee (Mr. Duncombc and Mr: Ward),
differed as widely as men could do in their opinions upvis
it—(Hear, hear)—and seeing that this Committee wood
be the medium, not of gathering facts—for of. them they
had already all that could possibly be obtained—but Qf
eliciting opinions, which it was the province of the House
itself to strive at, he could see no good whatever, hit
rather much of evil, were the motion agreed to. Of in!- •
formation they had a vast quantity, and that of the most..
elaborate character. Since 1832 they had.had Comwi'-
tees that had taken the fullest evidence that could •be
brought to bear upon the subject ; and the. Cotonittee
now moved for was not for the particular question on
which parties differed—it was not for the effect. of a
reduction of wages coincident on the reduction of she
hours of labour. The motion was to refer the Bill it,eif
to a Committee..
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that was preliminary only to
the consideration of the question of the reduction of
wages consequent on the reduction of the hours Uf
labour. _

fir J. GRAHAM resumed—That might be a very
important point, taken as a substantive measure, toe
consideration, but it was not so brought forward now.
The motion now was to refer the Bill to a Select Com:- .
mittee, and to that he (Sir J. Graham) had the strongest
possible objection. Why, in the Committee of 1840, of
which Lord Ashley was the Chairman, the subject;
factories aud factory labour had been gone into at le
great length—all the leading points had been gone jute,.
with the exception of the limitation of wages (as wit.
understood the Right Hon. Baronet), and this qttesti, ii
had been excluded, and wisely excluded, by that. Nehe
Lord himself. It was very well known --riot as mato c
of opinion, but as matter of fact—that a limitaion of Cie
hours of labour must lead to a reduction of wages eqai-
valent to the saving of the raw material consequent :on
the reduction of time. The loss must be compensated
either by a reduction of profit or by a loss on mlees.
But that was not a question to be raised before .a Coei-
mittee, for the facts were not disputed. For the third
time they had arrived at the Committee on a Bill con-
taining provisions which had been much sought for by
the operatives themselves, which had been much desired
by them, which were founded on most excelh nt autho-
ritee.; and seeing that the measure was ripe for diseuseioa
by the House, seeing that the operatives tle-melves sort
not petitions for a Committee, he earnestly entreated
the House not to entertain the proposition of the Hen.
Member for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe), but to allow the
Speaker to leave the chair.—(Hear.)
Sir G. STRICKLAND said he must oppese the motion
for a Committee, as it appeared to him that the result 4e*
sending the Bill up stairs would be to get rid of it for
the present session. He, for one, was most anxious that
this should not be the result of their proceedings on this
question, as he looked upon the provisions of the Bill as
extremely important—even without a Ten or. Elew
Hour Bill—for either of which he was most anxious.
He thought no further. delay whatever should take place.
He had been a member of Committees upon this sub-
ject, and he could truly say the subject had been most;
fully discussed, and there was no necessity whatever fur
further information. The particular question now mooted
rested upon opinion, and if they were to set about asking
opinions, their labours would be no further advanced at
the end of six months than they were now. He had
listened very attentively to the Hon. Gentleman who
had brought forward the motion (Mr. Duncombe), and
he could only come to the conclusion that not one of the
subjects brought. forward by him had any referenze
whatever to the matter. What it was for them in tiviit
House to do, was to consider the means of bettering the
condition of persons employed in factories, and to extend
suitable protection to women and children. This was
what they had to set about ; and with this view of the
case, he trusted the House would not concede to the
Hon. Gentleman the Committee he had asked for.
Mr. HUME said that no man in that House or out of
it regretted more than he did that any person, male 4sr
female, should be compelled, by circumstances, to wot k
more than ten hours a day. But the country was not
now in a condition to select what should be the exact
number of hours an individual should work, for we were
placed in direct and absolute competition with the labour
market of the world. The only correct principle fez
them to try to act upon, in order.to better the condition
of the people, to lighten their labour, and add to their
wages, was to extend the market, to widen the field. for
employ. The question was, whether their interference
would not add to the existing evil—want of employment.
He knew of no question affecting the working classes
more important than some which had already been
settled in Committee, and he could not at all admit that
this was not a fair case for such an inquiry. A
Committee had formerly been appointed to examiee
into the rate of labour and the hours of employment,
and so satisfactorily did the evidence bear out his views,
that the Committee came to a unanimous decisi,
against interference. At that time the working clasees
laboured under the greatest delusion, and attempts were
now being made to mislead them. The Noble Lord had
worked on the passions of that House, and had thereby
hurried the House into a hasty decision. A Committee,
would come to a different result ' • and it was for that
reason that he wished to see a Committee appointed.
If England were the onlymanufacturing country, it
might be all very well to limit, competition ; but a very
different state of things in reality existed. In-
stead of being checked or injured, all possible assist-
ance should be given to our manufacturing interests.
If the House interfered with labour, let them apply the
principle of interference to all classes. The cotton ma-
nufacture formed but a small branch of the industry ..f
the country. The delusion of the poor people was that
they would receive twelve hours' wages for ten hours'
labour. In order to correct that mistake, a Committee
should be appointed to investigate the matter, cub
then he had no fear for the result. He thought it his;
duty to support the proposal of his Hon. Friend, in or-
der that no delusion might induce them hastily to pass a
measure which would have an injurious effect on the
public interests.
Mr. ESCOTT was surprised that the Hon. Member
should imagine that the working classes expected to be
paid the same amount of wages for a less amount of
work.---(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that any per-
son was under that delusion ; the fallacy was one which
did not need the appointment of a Committee in order
to correct it. He should vote against the motion, be-
cause he believed it to be grounded on an entire fal-
lacy.—(Hear.)
Mr. G. PALMER had not supported the proposal
of the Noble Lord to establish the period of teu hours
as the legal period of labour. If interference was ne-
cessary at all, and he thought the Noble Lord had mad&
out that it was, he could see no reason for the proposed
delay. The sense of the country was now, however,,
so fully ascertained in reference to this matter, that he,
thought it might safely be left to the manufacturers
themselves. He would vote with her Majesty's Govern-
ment for going into Committee.
Mr. VILLIERS said, that if any proof were necessary
to show that caution ought to be used in legislating upen
this subject, it would be found in the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down. The Hon. Gentle-
man said they attached too much importance to the fo-
reign trade, for, said he, only 400,000 persons are en-
gaged in it. That showed the extent of the information,
possessed on the subject by not the youngest Member
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he undertook to.
say, that 1,500,000 persons were employed in the cottons
trade alone.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to say-
that four millions were dependent on the foreign trade
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He knew the Hoe.
Gentleman belonged to a school which thought that it
ought 4to be limited. Did the Honourable Gentlereau
calculate what the effects of that would be. The people
who left the .agricultural_districts for the manufacturing
localities would be thrown back, and the poor-rates
would be greatly augmented. The. question wasenugli:
there to be a Committee of Inquiry. He thought tea
was a reasonable request. It was said that the working
classes and the master manufacturers were in favour f
the Bill. Had the working elesses—had the master.e "0"_.
nufacturers sought this Bill ? .The Eon. ,lefemo
t_r
nr.
Finsbury said thee .the Bill as it stood, .without
hours' Bill
that a Ten could!
hear.) He was well aware
He did not see the ra --
hours' clause, the working classes did not nsnt. (neer,:
not be carried.—(Hear, headr.)b
the truth there's
layed it to satisfy themselves
cessity for pressing
forwar
ofte measure. If the- ie..
not be much mischief in that.
.e said they 14, emu/ en=-
quiry. It was said that a Committee was of no import- •
ance except to ascertain matter of fact. That was ales) se
the stock ;argument brought forward when inquiry was
to bSerefused. He had no great opinion of Committees.
ueseei4
that House, but he thought they might be of as much,
negobllecyt:ngwhoopiniwuonsaasstAtfaCuntchs.
supporter of o Member
a e n
for Finsbury,
Hours' Bill, said he did not think this measure would be-
nefit the working classes. Could
anybody then say there
was not a doubt upon the ;subject? It had beets said at
meetings held on the subject, that wages were low
enough; but one of the necessary consequences of pin-
ing this measure would be to:
reduce wages.—(Hear,
hear.) Their only object in passing a ten hours' clause
would be to raise the condition of the working classee.
Would it not be wise to inquire whether it would benefit
them if-their wages were reduced?--(llear. hear.) It ha S
been said during this debate by gentlemen opposite ti at
they lived in times when they must interfere, and wl Len
there must be constant intervention between the empli evert
and employed. They would not confine themselves,_tolle
tories, but would interfere with the, relations of -iurts'.er
and servant in every departnient.--(Hear, hirer.) If
they only wanted thee truth, whyshouldthey *be tt7raid
of inquiry. Same of the muter mataufaotir ;era wa re in
favour of the Ten hours' Bill, because tbeey thought it
would destroy the. competition of the 'lama raanufac-
turers.—(llear' hear.) The worktv, classes were in
favour of it, because they thought teY 3 one-sixth more
mills would be erected throughoet' the country—that
was, that the competition woulrY be increased. Thre
large master manufacturers
weree''in favour of the clause
for one reason, the workiwe e"etisses for the very oppo-
site.—(Hear, hear-) eriticd troth be right ?—(llear,
hear.) Some of these 'must, be -wrong. The adult work-
ing men thought_ *lslet if 'females and children were
w
withdrawn their ages would be increased. That was
a delusion., and -for this reason, that unskilled labour
would not obtain the wages of skilled labour.—(Hear,
hear.) They had no reason to suppose that the working
men, if they did not labour under, a delusion, would ask:
for that which' would injure th4n instead of benefiting
them. The Hon. Member for Fiiisbury was not afraid of
meddling witlethe capital of thee. ountry. He was confident
the working classes could not t istablish their- case, that
a reduction Of wages would 'not fi Alcver from a diminution
of the hours'of labour. He (Mr.„ V illiers) did not think
they could make out that. -He I ine w-the miserable con-
dition of millions of the people,; and be was, therefore,.
for inquiry.---(Hear, hear.) rfe -would vote for a Tent
Hours Bill if he thought the condition of the w 'orking
classes would be improved titer ,ebs, and that thtt'a• wag, sti

would notbe diminished ; but he could never bring his mlnd ! paver that ought not to be granted to them. He
to such a conclusion. The greatest activity had been , thought if the Rightßaronet wighed to consult the
used to confirm the. working classes in their delusion.— public good and the opinion of the manufacturers, he
(Hear, hear.) Some trouble ought to be taken by them would alter this clause.
to remove Hear,- hear.) There was-nb-immediate•l After a few observations from Mr. BLAKEMORE,
necessity for the Bill. Nobody was anxious for the Bill I Sir J. GRAHAM said he quite agreed with the Hon.
,qua the Bill. If an inquiry were granted, he would be ! Member for Durham as to the necessity of the Govern-
guided by the evidence. They could not interfere with- , merit not asking for powers that should be needlessly
out diminishing capital; they could not diminish cap;- I exercised. The powers given by this clause would not
tal without diminishing -competition ; and they could I be called into effect as a general rule ; they would only
not do that by Act of Parliament. If they wauted to ibe exercised in cases where the inspectors, or sub-inspec-
to diminish competition, they must do so by increasing I tors, had reason 'to believe that the law was violated,
the demand for the labour, that was the only way they ; and apprehended that the legal power of the master to
could do so ; and they would only aggravate the present I exclude the sub-inspector would be used to conceal a
evil by passing an Act of Parliament which would have ! violation of it. .
the effect of diminishing capital.—(Hear, hear.) • I Mr. M. PHILIPS thought there might be a more
Sir J. GRAHAM' explained. • ! minute division of the manufacturing districts, and that
!
Lord ASHLEY said he should not have risen were it , an inspector might be made resident in each district.
.not for what had fallen from his 'Hon. Friend, the Mem- i He should wish to ask whether some such classification
bee for Wolverhampton, who said that nobody cared for - could not be made? •
the Bill qua the Bill. He begged to contradict Sir J. GRAHAM said that at present the whole of
that statement, for he was quite sure the f the manufacturing districts of the country were divided
working-classes were anxious for the larger into four parts, over each of which was an inspector,
portion of the Bill. They regarded the Bill, as now with sub-inspectors through all the subdivisions of these
introduced, as a very great improvement, and many of districts. Thus the Secretary of State had, by means of
its provisions had an admirable tendency. They were these four inspectors, through the sub-inspectors, a con-
grateful to the Government for hating, introduced such trot over all•the manufacturing districts of the kingdom.
a Bill. It was grounded on the report of the Committee iHe had formerly entertained an opinion similar to that
of which he had the honour to be Chairman, befote I expressed by the Hon. Member, but he had subsequently
which three or four very eminent manufacturers seen reason to prefer the present arrangement.
were examined. Now he had to assure the House and Mr. HUME said that at the time they were removing
thellon. Member for Finsbury, that the delay which d all restrictions from every trade it was melancholy to
would be caused by sending this Bill to a Committee I hear a declaration from the Secretary of State, that he
would be a source of great disappointment._ must have under his control the whole of the manufac-
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Those who represented 'tiring districts; that was, that he must control all the
the operatives of Yorkshire and Lancashire were cotton manufactures of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.)
anxious about the Bill. Did not the Hon. Member for In attempting it, he was undertaking what no one could
Finsbury know this ? Had he not received informa- possibly perform. It appeared to him an intefarence
tion on the subject ? They begged of- him not to inter- totally uncalled for, and he felt that the House ought to
pose any delay, or to use bis influence in getting the Bill be ashamed to sanction it. He could only enter his pro-
sent up stairs to a Comm t ee. He (Lord Ashley) te-t against it; the whole Bill would not only be a nul-
made it his business to inquire on the subject, and he lity, but would be a discredit to the country; the Go-
knew the working men would be most bitterly disap• vernment seemed to think that it could manage the
pointed if the Bill were delayed one hour longer than was capital of the kingdom better than the manufacturers
necessary. They felt that no good would come from in-• themselves.
qoiry. The Bill would be thrown back to the end of Mr. TATTON EGERTON objected to the power
the session, or, perhaps, till next session. He wished to given to the sub-inspectors to visit mills without the
avoid entering upon the main question of wages, but he presence of witnesses.
would conclude by imploring the Hon. Gentleman to Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the inspectors
withdraw his motion, and not to divide the House ; I could not, in any case, adjudicate. That power was
because, if he could succeed in carrying it, he would not taken away from them. They could now only state facts,
succeed in subduing the hopes, or calming the expects- i in the way of reporting to the Government. ..
tions of the working classes —(Cheers.) I After a few words from Mr. BROTHERTON, the
Mr. COBDEN said that if by a measure which would clause was agreed to.
shorten the hours of labour they could obtain one-tenth Clause 4 was agreed to without discussion. .
of the good promised by the advocates of such a measure, On clause 5, which proposes the establishment ,of a
no person of ordinary humanity would refuse to vote central office of inspection, to be situated in the metro•
for-the Bill, so simple as it was in its character, and so polis, being put,
little calculated to do injury to anybody else.—(Hear, ' Mr. MARK PHILIPS said he had the greatest ob-
hear.) But the question was, would a Ten Hours' Bill jection to the clause. London- was the very worst place
benefit them, if wages were to be reduced in proportion ,in which such an office could be established. He knew
to the hours of work ? He observed that amongst the nothing of the nature of the documents which• formed
advocates of the measure there was a shrinking from the records of the business of the inspectors, but he was
this question—(Hear, hear)—but it was the main ques- i convinced that, if they created this office, it would -only
tion.—(Hear.) He was unwillina, to adopt the phrase .I be the commencement of a more extensive system of the.
" working classes." It implied a distinction ; Inethought I same kind. He thought such records might, with great
that there should be no distinction of interests, but he I proprietyebe transmitted to the Board of Trade. The
wished to say that if they passed a Ten Hours' Bili, Home -office was not the best place for them. All that
with the prospect of benefiting the working classes, and the Secretary of State had to do, was to see that the
that wages were to be reduced in proportion to the time, duty of the inspectors was performed according to law.
they laboured under a delusion that it would be accept He viewed the creation of this office with great jealousy,
able to them. The real question was raised by the Hon. and he should oppose the insertion of the clause.
Member for Finsbury, and it was a most important Sir J. GRAHAM defended the formation of the office.
question to raise in the preliminary step of the Bill— on the ground that it would, at a very small cost, fur-
that question was, Would the reduction of the hours of nish the means of organising a mass of most valuable
labour reduce, the rate of wages ?—(hear, hear.) ,Now, information.
hbw were the working classes paid in the cotton dis- Lord HOWICK thought that the objection of the Hon.
tricts ? They were paid by the pieee.—(Hear, Member for Manchester to the clause, was a good one.
hear.) He had met with but two arguments It tended to take the attention of the inspectors from
which tended to show that the same rate of wages would I their districts, and to fix it on London. If an establish-
be paid, though the time of working was diminished. I merit of this kind was createde the inspectors would be
The first was, that the manufacturers would increase apt to be making work for themselves. He thought that
the speed of their machinery, and by this means they twenty resident inspectors with one intelligent senior
would produce in ten hours what Ives now produced in clerk at the Home-office to receive their reports, re.uld
twelve. Ho had taken pains to inquire into that fact, be a more satisfactory organization in that department.
• and the answer he got was this, that the machinery was 'Sir J. GRAHAM had formerly entertained a some-
driven by the steam-engine, and that it was driven as what similar opinion, but lie had seen reason to change
fast as it was profitable to work it—(Hear, hear)—and it'since he had become more acquainted with the system.
there was rather a tendency in some places to diminish Ile said that the arrangement would be most conducive
the rapidity of machinery rather than accelerate it, be- to the convenience of the public service.
cause by increasing the rapidity of the movements Mr. BROTHERTON suggested that Manchester
they lost more in waste than they gained by the should be substituted for London, as the place for de-
increase of production.—(Hear, hear.) The next pro- positing the records.
position he had heard put forward was this—that by Mr. HUME thought there was no necessity for the
diminishing the hours of labour from twelve to ten, creation of a special office. A clerk in the Secretary of
there would be a diminished produce in the market, and State's office could receive and collate the reports. The
that it would there sell for the same price, seeing that principle of the Bill was to compel the inspectors to re-
there would be no more to be sold e and, consequently, side in their districts, and this establishment of an office
there would be one-sixth more mills erected, which in Lohdon was in direct contravention- of the principle
would employ the same number of hands as at present of the Bill. , •• -
But this argument proceeded on the supposition that a Mr. F. MAULE was glad to find that the experience
fixed quantity of cotton goods would be sold, whatever of the Right Hon. Gentlemen had induced him to come
the price was, forgetting that the present price of cotton to the opinion that theetystem of the inspectors and the
depended on its cheapness, and that the manufacturers sub-inspectors was thee best. He recollected the time
obtained great sales of cotton in consequence of its when the Right Hon. gentleman had endeavoured to
cheaptiess.—(Hear, hear.) It was in consequence of force opposite views upon hit) (Mr. F. Maule). lie was
their facilities in obtaining iron and coals, and the long glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentleman had now
working hours of the labouring men, that they had 'ex.. come round to his views. He should support the clause.
pelleel the power-loom sad spinning-jenny, not only in Mr. C. WOOD could not understand the necessity for
this country, but had even superseded the distaff and the constitution of this new office in London. All the
the spindle in other countries. Now if they increased changes which had been proposed did away with the
the cost to the manufacturers, the price would be in necessity for it. While the inspectors possessed 'the
creased, and they would perhaps force other countries pitwer of making regulations, there might besome ne-
to restore their spindle and distaff, where they were now cessity for their having an office in London, in which to
thrown aside.. Now these two arguments, if arguments et and deliberate, but that power was now taken-from,
they could be called, were put forward and impressed t em, and there was no necessity for the creation Oft-a
n.
upon the working men with great earnestness. He n w office. A
took it for granted that they would see the unsoundness Sir J. GRAHAM said that the inspectors were now'
of their views, and that their wages would be reduced if obliged to come to London twice every year. The
they reduced the time. That was admitted by the Hon. clause, in fact, only established an additional clerk or
and Learned Member for Winchester. That seemed to tWo to assist the inspectors when they came to London.
be generally admitted.. If it were admitted, and put Mr. STRUTT asked who was the head of the new
forward honestly and fairly before the labouring men, office ? If the office was to consist of only one or two
would they then be anxious for a Ten Hours' Bill? additional clerks, why could not they be attached to the
(Hear, hear.) Let them recollect that they had short- Home Secretary's-office ?
time work before in the cotton districts. Did the men ISir J. GRAHAM did not attach any particular ins.
like it?—(Hear, hear.) They worked eight hours a , portance to the clause--(Hear, hear)—but he had pro-
day, and got four days' wages for their labour.—(Hear, posed the appointment on the ground of economy. 'The
hear.) Did the working men find the wages raised for stilaries and allowances of the clerks in the Home Se-
having only four days' work ?--(Hear, hear.) No. He Mint:iris-office were on a high scale. The clerks in this
had been speaking to an eminent manufacturer, who Was office would be appointed at a lower salary, and, the ac-
at
present in town, upon the subject. He had mills cdmmodation in the Home Secretary's-office was so very
which were driven by two steam-engine', and he in- 14aited, that if additional clerks were appointed for this
formed him that if one of them worked: even half en *pose it would be necessary to procure for them addi-
hour slower than the other, there was a perceptible tional accommodation.
diminution in the wagei Of the men.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would
Having admitted those—they were indisputable—would give up the clause. If the office was to have no head
they proceed to pass a law to diminish the wageS of there was no necessity for the clause ; but if they ap-
labour for the working classes? Did they think the p inted a new office, it would not be long before a' head .
operatives of Lancashire would • thank them and bless w s appointed to it. If the clause passed, within two
them for pas-sing such an Act? for that was what it y ars an lnspector-General would be appointed. This
would come to. They were going to pass an Act to 0 ce had been shadowed forth in a Factory Bill some
reduce the wages of the working classes. Did they t oor three years ago, on which occasion some allusion
think, whatever basis they could put it on, they could h d been made to the appointment of an Inspector-Ge-
escape from the Obloquy of passing such an Act? A ntr ral. He was astonished that the Right Hon. 'Baronet
1
great deal had been said in this discussion with regard s ould give encouragement to the Factory Inspectors to
to -the conduct of free traders. The free traders lead e me about the Home-office. He was sure the expee
been charged. with being friendly to long hours of labour, ri nee of the last -two years must have convinced the
and the Ilcn. Member for Finsbury had undertaken to P ght Hon. Baronet of the great' harm which was oc •
elaseify parties on this subject, and he' divided them into e sinned by these incessant meddlinge with trade. There
is orking &asses and free traders. But he told the lion. w re but two Factory Inspectors residing in the districts,
Metcher fur Finsbury, who represented himself as the o ein Kent and the other at Stroud, but neither Mr.
advocate of the working classes, that the working classes I orner nor Mr. Saunders, the - Inspectors of Lancashire
were the friends of free trade. Indeed, he (Mr. Cobden) a d the West Riding of Yorkshire, resided in their diss
had been upbraided with having, at several meetings• t. its. There were already joVs enough in the country,
whkh he called in various parts of the country, none a dno good would arise from this office. He thought
but the lower orders as his hearers—that he was t e Right Hon. Baronet must have had as much of face
cheered on only in his free trade doctrines by the 0 y legislation within the last two years as was agree-.
operatives. But with regard to the accusation of f.i.' le to him. The great body of the manufacturing intea
free traders being the friends of long' hours 'for rst were against this clause, and he hoped the Right
the working classes, he (Mr. Cobden) st tod there } ni. Baronet would withdraw it.
as the acl.ucate of the only means by which the working Mr. STUART WORTLEY supported the clause.
1
classes could have any mitigation of their labour. He I - thought that the apprehensions of the Hon. Member
would tell them how they could shorten what lie must I fair Durham, that the constitution of' this office would
call the nnreasoaably long hours of work in manufee- lead to-the appointment, or an Inspector-General, were
tories. r.e did not say, as the Noble Lord the Member ti founded.
for. London had said, that a reduction of 'the price of IMr. M. PHILIPS hoped the Right Hon. Baronet
bread, meat, and other necessaries, would compensate w Wild withdraw the cause. . There was no necessity for
the operatives fur any reduction in %N ages consequent elle creation of the office, and nothing could he worse
upon a lessening of the hours of labour. He (Mr. Cob- than the appointment of &elks without-a head. If that
den) did not look to any reduction in the price of bread, ..lice were created returns would be constantly moved
meat, or coffee, or any other thing, as a means of com- - tar from it, the printing of which would (limit a great
pensating the labourer for any reduction of wages. But • xpense td the country. •
if they would enlarge-the market of the manufacturer— I .1)r. BOWRING entreated the Right Hon. Baronet to
if they would allow a free exchange of the productions-of withdraw the clause, which was feebly supported and
this country for the corn, sugar, and coffee of other I s+hngly opposed. It was unpalatable in the manufac-
countries, without any restriction whatever—they would, taring districts, and there was something objectionable
by that means, so raise - the value of the pro- id the creation of a new office.
ductions of the operative, and, in consequence, . After a few words from Sir J. GRAHAM, the Com-
the value of his labour—(Hear, hear)—and they mittee divided--
would also at the same time so enhance the value of ca For the clause ... 157
pita! employed in manufactures, that it was his firm be- , Against it' 53
lief that the labourer with ten hours' work might have Majority in favour of the clause
just as much wages as he now had, and capitalist, as ; ;Classes 6 and 7 were agresel to.
much profit. That was not his own opinion merely. I !On clause 8 being proposed, which - provides that no
It aas the epinion of a most intelligent capitalist, and manufacturer • shall take a child into his employment
last night, ill conversation with him, he said, " You may i without first obtaining a surgeons c. rtidcate,
go to the Rouse of Commons, and state that lam ready I ‘ Mr. BROTHERTON - objected, on account of the
to make this bargain with them: thstif they remove all harden it threw on the manufacturers. This burden
monopolies that obstruct commerce, I will immediately was not less than 20,0001. a year. lie should move, on
give the same wages for ten hours' work to my opera- , bringing up thefreport, the insertion of a clause to re
Lives us I now give them. He thought the investiga- medy this,
lion eldch would be had before the Select Committee 'Mr. M. GIBSON would support the views of the Hon.
would tend very much t
euid the differences of vierov clear
up
the disputed "points Member, .
' ' ts for Salford.
ttterefore vote for the amendment '
on the subject and he would ' After a few words from Sir J. GRAHAM and Mr.
of the Hon. Member BRIGHT, the clause was agreed to.
for' .Finsbury.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the ,agCn ed
Classes 9 and 10 were, -after some discussion, also
_House divided. The numbers were—
going into Committee .;.......... Clauses from 11 to 18, inclusive, with verbal amend-
For 145 leentse were agreed to.
For the amendment .. . ..
Majority ....... ...... •• 42 'Clause 19 was agreed to, after a few words from Mr.
- --103 Ward, Sir .1. Graham, and Mr. M. Philips.-
!T. 'te House then went into Committee, Mr. GREENE On clause 20 there was some discussion, several
in. the. Chair.
ae -es 1 and 2-were agreed to without discussion.
tailleeidnibsoeuisssihoanving objections to offer. In 'the midst of
k ..LaUi
Cht ela. ell
j3ibie,ifluguArepads,
t 00..: occasion to explain that passed 'l r .
nGßEENEearly'unnoptuictotdh.e question, and the clause was
Mr. ' .31,1 .
• Nri!,-,s which he had made one former occa- . Mr. BRIGHT was objecting to the clause, when
in sense :ma a - eof fatt - 1
ean -inspec ors
Si" re'P'ectinie . 'Nana] attack on the present subainspe s a aati:. BRIGHT said he had not observed it.—(Hear.)
intended nny pe, • .-
rded:
urers were desirous that the officerse k Clause' 21 was then proposed ;it provides that ma-
tors; The marlin "e'''
' Jame class, for though they had no ! chinery shall b
should be all of the resent,-they looked to the cOntin- Mr. BLAKBeIIOaI ,
said the clause would be of no
coat/Malta against the ‘ 'Vat pointed to the situation. of sub- effect, and suggest that clauses to the following effect
g,ney of persons being', t' so respectable' as the present be substituted :
itemeetors who were no 'est that' for the future there i "Two --magistrates to
officers. He would sag, -, -es that of inspectors amid ' not-exceeding, be empowered to award damages
say ten pounds, together -
should be no such distinctit P - . , !action in cases of injury to the' with a right of
sab in, ctors. ' .0 observe, with re. 1 ill secured Machinery. person, from defective or
Sir J. GRAHAM b d 1 egge , .
lave , -
',lse that it was a ' ' "The party injured to be allowed, say five days,
spect to the rowers • blb w eh' ' '
given - • e They had
whether
to accept thetlathages or procee to elect
d w.th th '
restriction of the powers• fy . Viliee I's'i e actton.
.0
.has. a e. "In case of proceeding with
been armed smith- ' and regain,the action, the damages
the power,ofmakie le: rule b i nii - rules awarded by the magistrates to be applied, as fa
Voris: That was r as ne-
now taken 'from th me, a '"`' - • - y century, in paying the expenses of the
were to beutr,
be
action, and for
made by Ti '
With respect to th
.(11` '.ictorS, be I that purpose to be deposited with the clerk of the peace.
wished to mentioneati:baracter of the subeansa a - .4e ex; 1 " The magistrates' warrant of conviction and award to
ceptioe, selected by his
they were, with .one Sie'-g- ..,6 Ibe received in the courts as the declaration on which the
intu office; there had nisepredecesaors, and, sine e l"a"
nst (action is tried.
these officers.. .t been it single complaint aga:--- The, depositions taken by the magistrates to be the
I
Mr. BRIGHT said that unless anstructions to counsel.
ground for ,g,.,ving inspectors there was s Anne good I ‘l'actor ' counsel to be appointed by the judges, the
the power
of eat srin any
person's manutactory any t' •isine. barristers now are.
time they pleased, it was san3o 141 rev se
a
, ~- .
•