The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

THE -SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY -MORNING, FEBRUARY 20, 1844.

O'Connell ought to have gone out to the ground and
tried the legal question as to whether the Government
had a right to stop him or not. He did not think the
Noble Lord had reflected well when he stated that. Hs
believed it was the advice of a paper which supported
the Government in Dublin. Had Mr. O'Connell gone
out with that excited multitude, what chance was there,
when the crowd was brought in contact with the sol-
diers, of escaping a tumult. It only required one evil-
disposed person to show a stone, and the most serious
consequences would have ensued. With regard to the
prosecutions he should not speak of them—he left
them to others, if from no other reason, yet from this,
that he despised. them too much.—(Hear.) He should
not dwell on the fraud and chicanery which marked
them, or the names omitted from the jury-list,
for which, though the Attorney-General was
not to blame, he had not scrupled to avail himself of the
omission. With respect to the men who composed the
jury, he did not mean to say that they were men capable
of violating their oaths. He believed their verdict was
given with all the sincerity and honesty of inveterate
prejudice and bigotry.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
It was for those who chose this jury to account for the
manner in which they had chosen it. They had struck
off the extreme men of one side, who were supposed to
be favourable to the accused, and selected men who were
known to be most unfavourable to the accused. Most
of those persons had been born and nurtured in the most
inveterate prejudices against the principles and persons
of those whom they were called upon to try. Let any
ons go into the Dublin booksellers' shops, and there
they would find books for the education of young
children filled with ten thousand exploded calumnies
against the Catholics of Ireland and their religion—
(Hear, hear)—and when the youthful mind was so poi-
soned, it was no wonder they should be bigoted, nar-
row-minded men.—(Hear, hear.) He came back to the
question he had originally intended to put. What good
had these State prosecutions done ?—(Hear, hear.)
Would the people of Ireland be more attached to the
union, because the lives of the people were jeopardised
by the manner in which the Clontarf proclamation was
issued ?—(Hear, hear.) It had been said by the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, that the issue of the
proclamation had been agreed upon on Friday night, but
it was deferred until Saturday afternoon, in order to
word it properly. Now, when the lives of so many of
her Majesty's subjects were perilled, he did think the
Privy Council might' have delayed their sitting on Fri-
day night until they had written it. Anything would
have been better than the mere possibility of such an oc-
currence. A rumour was prevalent in Dublin which he
would not mention—but yet he thought it better to do so,
to show in what condition the minds of the people of
Ireland were. He hoped the rumour was not true—he
was ready to disbelieve it. It was said that two Mem-
bers were to be found on that Council—and he would say
that neither of them was the excellent and gallant gen-
tleman who commanded the forces in Ireland—that
two members of the Council suggested that the hun-
dreds of thousands might be allowed to assemble at
Clontarf, and when the excitement was at the highest
pitch that troops should be poured in, the Riot Act
read, and, if they did not disperse in fifteen minutes, to
disperse them at the point of the bayonet.—(Hear, hear,)
It might not be true, but such was the impression that
was prevalent in Dublin. He would he happy to hear
this rumour denied upon authority. Would all this
make the people more attached to the union—(Hear,
hear)—because their rights and liberties were hourly
placed in jeopardy?—(Hear,' hear.) Would they be
more attached to the union, because they saw the man—
(and this was a question which might be better asked
by any other than himself)--because they saw the man
whom they loved and revered, and who had been
for forty years their champion and their pride,
condemned and waiting for his sentence ?—(Cheers.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had told them that
it was his intention to bring in some very good mea-
sures. Perhaps it was. But the Right Hon. Gentle.
man did not need him to tell him that the people of
Ireland distrusted him---(Cheers)—and it would take a
great deal to convince them that he was in earnest when
he said it was his intention to amend the franchise. The
franchise was a very good thing; but of what use was
the amendment or the extension of the franchise when
they who were one-third of the empire possessed only
one-fifth of the representation ?—(Hear, hear.) He had
heard a good deal said about the small proportion which
the Irish paid to the taxation of the empire. That was
not the time to go into the discussion of a mere nume-
rical'question, but he did not hesitate to say, and gen-
tlemen opposite knew it well, that Ireland paid in the
proportion of three to four in the taxation of the empire,
and yet her representation was in the proportion
of only one to four of Great Britain.—(Cheers.)
Right Honourable Gentlemen talked of a grant
for education, and if they were prepared to act in good
faith, they would confer a great benefit upon the coun-
try; but why did they not do something to improve the
material condition of the people—(Hear, hear)—for it
was well known in the history of human nature that,
as men improve in their physical condition, they are
desirous to educate their children and elevate them above
their own condition. They talked, also, of ameliorating
the relations between landlord and tenant. Here they
had touched a most delicate and dangerous subject.—
(Hear, hear.) He had received many hundreds
of letters, addressed to him by persons whose
hopes or fears had been extravagantly excited bye tho
present Commission. So maddened had their minds
been by the evils and oppressions of the existing sys-
tem, that it would be very difficult indeed to persuade
them in the end that the Commission was not
a mockery and a delusion. Many of those who
had been ejected from their holdings were in
fond hopes that they would be restored to their
land ; whilst those who had superseded them in their
farms, were under the equally dangerous impression
that they might be turned out to make room for their
predecessors. Some might say that it was very absurd
for the people to entertain such ideas ; but the persons
who said so had little notion of what thoughts will rise
in the minds of men writhing in the depths of despair.
Did they wish to see a mad and universal outbreak
shakilng the whole framework of society in Ireland ?
(Hear,' hear.) He trusted that they would, at any rate,
endeavour to deal efficiently with that danger. Those
who were in the power of the Ministry did not
supplicate their mercy.—(Hear, hear.) But let
them turn to the condition of Ireland. Let them
adopt some measure which would bring back the money
of Ireland to Ireland, and open up her resources.—
ever yet prospered. There
were
(Hear, hear.) There were drains from that country
under
millions country
of absentee rents. About a
million was shared from the reduced governmental
nearly
ex-
penses of that country. There were in all five or six
millions drained from the country—a sum which ex-
ceeded her total contributions to the revenue. A gat
hich n
fireo
deal was said about the impossibility of drawing English
capital into Ireland. He believed that that was alt,ge-
ther a fallacy. But, even supposing it to be the case,
let them adopt some measure which would give them
the use of their own capital.—(Hear, hear.) It was for
them to say whether the present state of things should
go on, or whether they would boldly meet the difficulties
of Ireland. He did not wish to say anything in the way
of menace, but he would ask, what had the people of
Ireland to attach them to English connection ? What
was there in the tyranny which they now endured that
exceeded any which they could suffer under a fo-
reign power ? He would not say anything in the way
of menace ; but he would ask whether, even though
some of those reverses to which nations as well families
were subjected, came upon them, was it well to have
one-third of the empire in permanent discontent ?
(Hear, hear.) Was it well to be accumulating hatred
against themselves when they might be stor-
ing up love ? Was it well to have Ireland
a miserable slave, instead of having her a power-
ful and loving sister and friend ?--(Hear, hear.) The
people of Ireland had never yet received any concession,
or any real kindness without labouring to pay it ten-
fold. " Try it with them again," said the Hon. Gentle-
man, " you will find the same disposition as they have
always shown.—(Cheers.) I tell you that if you
conciliate Ireland, not at any period of your past his-
tory—not in your wildest imaginations of the prosperity
of England, will you arise to such a pitch of glory as
when you shall make Ireland your friend. Sir, she is
willing to be conciliated. I call upon the Ministry—l
call upon this House—l call upon the English nation,
to make the experiment.—(Cheers.) Be just to Ireland,
and fear not ; be unjust—continue your injustice—con-
tinue your tyrannies—continue your insults—and upon
your heads be the fatal consequences."—(Loud cheers.)
Colonel VERNER said that he knew Ireland very
well, and he regretted to say that notwithstanding the
numerous concessions that had been made to the people
of Ireland, they were still more estranged from each
other—Protestant from Catholic—than he had ever
known before. He would ask the Noble Lord if such a
state of things as he had just described should be al-
lowed to continue ? On a recent occasion the Pro-
testants of the North of Ireland had, when exposed to
more than ordinary difficulties, displayed their loyalty
in casting aside the blandishments held out to them by
the Repealers. According to the statement made by the
Hon. Member who had just sat down, he (Col. Verner)
understood that the great complaint which was made
with regard to the late trials, was, that no Catholics had
been put upon the jury—but, he would ask, whether any
officer of the Crown, in the discharge of his duty, could
have placed avowed Re_pealers in that position ? It
had been proved beyond all doubt that the Repeal
movement was . an emphatically Catholic one, by the
mere fact of the great body of the Roman Catholic
clergy to a man joining in that agitation, and by the
frequent appeals which Mr. O'Connell made to the reli-
gious feelings of the peasantry of Ireland. He (Colonel
Verner) knew a case himself where a Ribbonman had
been put upon his trial and twice acquitted, in conse-
quence of one juror holding out, and that individual
juror eventually was found to have belonged to the
Ribbon conspiracy.
Captain LAYARD wished that he had the eloquence
which was displayed by the g
RI ht Hon. and Learned
Member for Dungarvon, in his late appeal to the jury in the
and then he should
Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland,
have been enabled to bring vividly before their minds
the result of his observations whilst he was stationed
with his regiment in Ireland ; he should then depict the
generosity, the charity displayed by the poor to the
poorer, and the cheerfulness with which that noble
hearted people submitted to most unprecedented priva-
tions. It had been.asked by Hon. Gentlemen opposite
whatwould benefit Ireland ? To that he should reply that
it would tend greatly to the benefit of Ireland if every
Hon. Gentleman before he took his seat in that House,
was to visit Ireland, and observe from personal expe-
rience the state of that country. In the year 1832 his
regiment was stationed in Cork, and his detachment was
sent to protect the proctors in the collection of tithes.
A collision ensued between the people and the military ;
orders weregiven to fire, and several men were shot.
He passed the barn where those slaughtered men were
lying; and if Hon. Gentlemen were to see the counte-
nances of the men marked by sullen despair, and to hear
the wailings of the women, they could understand, per-
haps, a little better what were the causes which tend to

produce social disorganization in that unfortunate coun-
try. Soon afterwards those tithe proctors were mur-
dered near the very spot where the rencontre took place,
and their bodies were removed to an outhouse attached
to the clergyman's dwelling, and he (Captain Layard)
was sent on detachment to protect him. He saw the
clergyman walking about his grounds with a pistol in his
hand, and escorted by a policeman armed with a loaded
carbine. In that parish there were not six Pro-
testants, and no church for upwards of one hundred
years. Was not that enough to engender a
bad feeling in the country ? He had seen thousands
fall in the field of battle, but he felt truly sorry that the
slaughter of those men was a blot upon the escutcheon
of his country. Notwithstanding the great delay which
preceded the Catholic emancipation, the Catholic people
of Ireland believed that they were to be placed on the
same footing with their Protestant brethren, but the
late disastrous trials, for by no other name than dis-
astrous could he style them. had fully proved that
Catholic emancipation was little better than a dead let-
ter. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department had stated that no Coercion Bill
would be required for Ireland. In alluding to the next
topic he should disclaim all intention of personal feeling
or wish to give offence to the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Attorney-General for Ireland, but still he felt it his
duty to say that the course which he pursued in the late
trials was one which brought the law into great disre-
pute, and was one which bore its own fruits. At the
late trial at the Old Bail of Lieutenant Grant his
counsel appealed to the jury whether they would find
his client guilty after the Attorney-General of
Ireland—one of the first law officers of the
Crown in that country —had done the same.
He (Captain Layard) would ask the House if Lieutenant
Grant had not an excuse to plead, which could not at
all be allowed in extenuation of the conduct of the
Right Hon. Gentleman who sat opposite to him. (The
Attorney-General for Ireland). He agreed with the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment, that no benefit could arise from keeping Ireland
under military rule—" a house divided against itself
cannot stand." Could they suppose that a people who
showed their own self-command by the adoption of the
temperance movement, were not entitled to equal
rights, and a people who proved their love of peace and
' order when they met in hundreds of thousands without
the slightest breach of the peace, and he should go
farther and say even of good manners, were to be go-
verned by martial law? He called upon them to do
justice to that country, which they had so long and so
grossly misguided and neglected. If they did so, tran-
quillity would be restored, affection for the British con-
nexion would be increased—there would be a union of
hearts—the condition of Ireland would be.permanently
improved—the flag of commerce would once more float
upon her coast—the palaces of the nobility would be
converted from receptacles of mendieancy into abodes of
luxury—and God would less the country and those who
had bettered the conditiM of her people.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FERRAND began by saying he would demon-
strate to the House, even from the speeches of the
leaders of the Irish agitation, that the Whigs were not
so fit to govern Ireland as the Conservatives. He had
felt it his duty last session to vote against the Govern-
ment on the Irish question, and he did so because they
had not taken proper steps to put down this disgraceful
agitation. Since then the majesty of the law had been
vindicated, and the conspirators had been brought to
conviction. During the whole speech of the Noble Lord
the Member for the City of London, his object seemed
to be to bring the laws of this country into con-
tempt. What was the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, when a convicted conspirator entered the
House ?—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Op-
position.) Was he not cheered and welcomed by a small
Republican party opposite.—(Laughter.) The Whigs
had no power in that House, nor in the country. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Cork seemed to be parti-
cularly well received by the Hon. Member for Montrose,
who was himself proved to be carrying on a treasonable
conspiracy with the Canadians—they were congenial
spirits.—(Renewed laughter.) He had heard the Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell) lay a great stress upon the is-
suing of the proclamation by the present Government,
though the Noble Lord did not deny but the meetings
were of a dangerous tendency. How many proclama-
tions had Earl Grey's Government issued, of which the
Noble Lord was a member? Upon reference to the
newspapers of that date, he found that the Marquis of
Anglesey, the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, had
issued a proclamation for the prevention of a procession
of the Trades' Unions in Dublin. Only one clear day
intervened between the day on which the proclamation
was issued, and that on which the procession was to
have taken place. The present Government had been
earnestly called upon, by a large number of the peace-
able and respectable inhabitants of Ireland, to interfere.
In the case of Lord Anglesey's proclamation, what
did Mr. O'Connell do ? He advised the people to sub-
mit to the proclamation, but immediately established
a new Club, or Association. A second proclamation
was issued suppressing this new Association. What
next ? Why, Mr. O'Connell and his adherents met in
Holmes' hotel. A third proclamation was issued, and
these meetings too were prevented. Another Associa-
tion was got up, and a fourth proclamation was issued,
putting it down. Mr. O'Connell called these proclama-
tions Algerine Acts, and then public breakfasts were
instituted for the same purpose, but these were disposed
of by two magistrates. What did the agitators do next ?
They declared they would not use -any exciseable ar-
ticles ; and, at a meeting of St. Thomas's parish, Mr.
O'Connell and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dun-
garvon declared they would not use any exciseable ,ar-
ticles until these proclamations ‘a ere withdrawn. Mr.
O'Connell said he would breakfast on bread and milk.
—(A laugh.) He supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Dungarvon would address the House in
the course of the debate. What did that Right Hon.
Gentleman say at the meeting of St. Thomas's parish ?
He said unless_ the union was repealed he would not pay
rent or taxes. They might distrain, said the Right Hon.
Gentleman, but who would buy? He would not tell any
man at the meeting to follow his advice, but, said the
Right Hon. Gentleman, " So help me God, if I don't
do it I will swallow my silk gown." He (Mr.
Ferrand) wondered if the Right Hon. Gentleman had
paid the, annual fee for his silk gown.
An Hort. ME3IBER—He has swallowed it.—(Great
laughter.)
Mr. FERRAND—In a few years after, notwithstand-
ing these vehement declarations, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman accepted office, and acted in conjunction with
those who had pledged themselves to resist repeal even
to the sword.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
Mr. O'Connell was, soon after the issuing of these pro-
clamations, arrested, and bound over to take his trial.
The Whigs allowed the trial to drop, and he became
their most strenuous supporter. Mr. O'Connell lately
said he would prefer the Whigs to the Tories; but what
did he say during Lord Grey's Administration, in a
proclamation, as he termed it, addressed to the people
of Ireland in 1832, after the affair at Wallstown, to which
the Gallant Officer opposite had alluded, in which he '
said the Whigs deserved to be impeached, and that more

uman bloodd-had been shed in li-eland by them during
the previous year and a half of Lord Grey's Govern-
ment than during the twenty years preceding of Tory
rule? The history of Whig rule, he said, had been a
history of blood. He said that Lord Strafford had not
shed as much blood in Ireland as Lord Anglesey, and
yet he had expiated his crime on the scaffold. After
some further abuse of Mr. O'Connell, the Anti-Corn-
law League, and Lord Grey, the Hon. Member said
that Mr. O'Connell had declared, in one of his procla-
mations, that Lord Grey was a childish old man, who
entertained the most insane hatred against Ireland. He
said that Lord Grey had only two ideas, that of hating
and oppressing Ireland, and providing for his own
family, who were a cruel infliction on this country. The
Hon. Member then read a second time: the passage of
Mr. O'Connell's letter to the people of Ireland, referring
to Lord Grey, and applied it to Mr. O'Connell himself',
who was a cruel infliction on his country, and had well
provided for his own family—his principal object seemed
to be to keep up fierce hatred between Protestants
and Catholics, which, were it not for him, would
have long since: subsided. The Hon. Member then
entered into a long defence of the Protestant Operative
Association. That body had been censured for calling
the Roman Catholic religion a false and idolatrous
faith. Now he would ask what other assumption or
belief did Parliament legislate upon than that the
Roman Catholic religion was false and idolatrous?—
(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition benches.) He
repeated the assertion, though Hon. Members might
say " No, no." The Government was bound to support
the Protestant religion, and to prevent the extension of
idolatry. Now what was the Roman Catholic religion
bnt idolatry ?—(Cries of "No, no.") Hon. Members
might say no ; but he knew that the Government must
support the Protestant religion, and that they could
not, according to the principles of the Constitution,
place the Catholic religion on an equality with it. The
Noble Lord the Member for the City of London had
lost the confidence of that House, and even of his former
supporters. The present motion had completely pros-
trated him, and he (Mr. Ferrand) would give it his most
unequivocal opposition.
Commodore NAPIER said, that the Hon. Gentleman
• who had just sat down had, us usual, talked about all
things—Reform Bill, Repeal, Algerine Acts, and he
wondered the Hon. Member had not touched upon the
Keightley union.—(Laughter.) He did not think the
Hon. Member was justified in saying Mr. O'Connell
was selfish ; he had given up his lucrative practice in
an honourable profession, of which he was a distin-
guished member ; he had sacrificed all his brilliant pro-
fessional prospects, and the immediate welfare of his
family, in order to benefit his country.(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member had spoken of Mr. O'Connell's abuse
of the Whigs, but he had not mentioned his abuse of the
present Government.—(Hear.)
[At this moment Mr. Sheil walked across the floor of
the House quickly, and took his seat beside Mr. Fer-
rand, who seemed somewhat surprised at the occurrence.
A dialogue ensued, a portion of which was in a rather
high tone of voice. The Hon. Member for Knares-
borough showed several documents to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and both Members left the house together.]
I The GALLANT OFFICER continued—He could hardly
blame the people of Ireland for their present agitation and
excitethent. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) had
declared in 1834, that Ireland was his chief difficulty
and so it was in 1844, and the difficulty would
exist as long as the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were
filling those benches. 'He did not find fault with the
present Government f.
or putting down the monster
1 meetings, and he thought it was wise in deferring doing
so until they had a sufficient force to enforce authority.
If they were determined to govern Ireland by force they
must have their bayonets in readiness. The pensioners
ought to be armed, if it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to follow up the course they had begun. The
Government had acted most unwisely in bringing the
Hon. and Learned Member for Cork to trial. What
was gained by it ?—(Hear, hear.) If they sent hind to
prison' would that pacify Ireland 9(Hear, hoar.) He
should think such a course might be dangerous ; and he
(Sir C. Napier) was of opinion that the present Govern-

nient would not hove sentence passed upon him, but
would allow the judgment to hang over his bead. He
hoped the House would not suppose for a moment that
he meant to advocate the cause of repeal ; he was its
most strenuous opponent, and every man in England
would, he felt assured, take up arms, if it was necessary,
to prevent its being carried into effect—(Hear, hear.)
It would be throwing Ireland into the arms of France.
But if O'Connell were sent to prison what would be the
consequence ? Would not-lie still retain his influence
over the priests ? Would not the priests exercise their
power over their flocks ? The people of Ireland
might remain passive, but what if they did
not pay rent or taxes ? Thousands might
been ejected for rent, but they could not eject millions.
Then, in case of war with France or America, how
would this country be situated ?—(Hear, hear.) He
remembered the last war—when, even with our supe-
rior fleet, French vessels reached Ireland. Now there
were war steamers, and with a disaffected people, it
would be almost impossible to prevent France from
making an impression upon Ireland. He did not believe
that at the present moment the Irish were disloyal ; but
if they were treated in the manner they had been, their
loyal feelings would be entirely alienated.—(Hear.
hear.) It might be said that it was imprudent to men-
tion those things, but was it not better to mention them
in times of peace, when remedies could be applied than,
than in time of war, when it would be too late.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought the Noble Lord, the Member for the
City of London, had made a very moderate speech, and
he thought the proposal for doubling the grant to May-
nooth College very reasonable and very proper. He
further agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that
the Catholic hierarchy ought to be acknowledged by
their titles, and that Government should ordain the mi-
nisters of hat Church. The Hon. Member's dislike to
the Roman Catholics reminded him that he had been in
Scotland some time ago on a visit with some friends of
his. They were elderly ladies—(Laughter)—in short,
they were old maids.—(Renewed laughter.) He asked
them their opinions of the Catholics and the Episcopa-
lians, and they said it was impossible the Catholics could
be saved, and even of the Episcopalians they had great
doubts.—(A laugh.) He would read some lines from an
old book, which he had copied for the purpose of reading
to that House :
" They cried the mass down, 'cause (they said)
The priest in unknown language prayed.
And yet themselves their prayer-book sent
To such as knew not what it meant ;
And it was read, and psalms were sung,
And sermons preached in English tongue,
Among wild Irish, when not one
Knew what they said, but cried 0 hone !'
' 0 hone !' they cried, and shook their head
With grief, to change their mass and bead
For what they knew to be a prayer
No more, poor souls ! than Banks his mare."
(The Gallant Commodore proceeded to narrate an
anecdote about Banks's mare and the six-and-
fourpenny stallion, amid the laughter of the House.)
That was not so liberal as the Right Hon. Baronet,
because he gave his bull for nothing.—(Roars of laugh-
ter.) He (Sir Charles Napier), however, did not think
that such a bull would satisfy Ireland.—(Continued
laughter.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder-
land had supposed the case of England being smaller
than Ireland, and that Ireland had, with a large force,
conquered England, and established in this country the
Catholic religion. Now this was the position in which
Ireland was now placed. There was no possibility of
Ireland conquering England ; but he (Sir C. Napier)
would suppose a case that was perfectly possible. Let
them suppose that Bonaparte, when he had an enor-
mous army at Boulogne, of two or three hundred thou
sand men, with an enormous flotilla, which, for some
time, had bewildered our fleet in such a manner that, if
the French Emperor had had a further force of forty-
six sail of the line, he could have proceeded up the
Channel. Now let them, under these circumstances, sup-
pose that Napoleon had conquered England, and after-
wards that he had been unwise enough to have brought
over with him French parsons, and that he had turned
all the clergy out of their different livings, and the
bishops out of their dioceses, and had directed the new
clergy to preach in a language the people of this country
did not understand—he (Sir C. Napier) asked whether
this country, under these circumstances, would have
remained long quiet?—(Hear, hear.) He thought
they would not have been long before they had made
some effort to drive the French out of England.
So with the Irish. They were now attempting
to drive the English parsons out of their country. The
Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, in his speech,
went further than the Noble Lord the Member for the
City of London.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir C. Napier)
thought he was right in doing so.— (Cheers.) The
Noble Lord, in the first place, wished the whole Protes-
tant Establishment of Ireland to be turned over to the
Catholics. He (Sir C. Napier) could not go quite so far
as that, but he quite concurred in another proposition
of the Noble Lord, which was, that the Catholics shou'd
have a portion of the proceeds of the Protestant Esta-
blishment, which, in point of fact, was the same propo-
sition as that which had been made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield. The Noble- Lord proposed that the
Catholics of Ireland•should have a portion of the tithes
collected in that country, and he (Sir C. Napier) thought
it was but a reasonable proposition, and ought to be en-
tertained. Another proposition with respect to this sub-
ject was, that the Establishment in Ireland should be
abolished, and the proceeds- given for the purposes of
education. Who would be injured if the Establishment
in Ireland were abolished, and how great would be the
benefit if the proceeds were given towards the education
of all elasies of the community ? He, however, was
afraid that the nation at large would not take this view
of the case.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial
beaches.) They would not be prepared for it —(Hear,
hear.) In order, therefore, to prepare them for it, the
Government should make a beginning. The
Government ought to show a willingness to
do justice to the people of Ireland, and the
nation would soon follow them.—(Hear, and cheers.)
This was what they must come to at last. How was
Catholic emancipation obtained ? It was a kind of
" Thank you for nothing."—(Laughter.) It was re-
sisted as long as possible, and yet, at last, the Right
Hon. Baronet—much to his credit, it was true—brought
forward the measure ; but then it was only a " Thank
you for nothing" affair.— (Laughter.) Justice for Ireland
would be conceded, but not until it was taken, as Ca-
tholio emancipation had been taken, as a kind of
" Thank you for nothing." The Church in Ireland, as
at present constituted, could never be maintained.
Sooner or later the Right Hon: Baronet must come for
ward with some measure of conciliation, and the sooner
he did so, the happier would he the people of the country,
at large. Now he (Sir C. Napier) had a plan to pro-
pose, which was simply this—that whenever a living in
Ireland became- vacant, instead of appointing another
person, the proceeds of the living should go to the
'frea-ury, to be applied to the purposes of education.
It was inconsistent with common sense that a parish in
which the number of Protestailts was so few that the
clergyman was obliged to preach to his clerk and two or
three others—it was inconsistent with common sense
that, under these circumstances, a clergyman should be
appointed with a large salary. The Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies had said that the Catholics
would not accept a portion of the proceeds of the Pro-
testant Establishment, even if it were offered to them.
Why, did not that show the greatest moderation on the
part of the Catholics ? Did it not show that they did
not wish to rob the Church at all ? But they at
the same time wished to be placed in the same
position as the Protestants. It had been said that the
tithes in Ireland had been commuted, and that the land-
lords were the parties who paid the tithes. Who was
it, he would ask, that paid the landlord ? Suppose the
landlord had two farms on his estate ; one he let to a
Protestant and the other to a Catholic tenant—the Pro-
testant had a church found for him, but the Catholic was
obliged to pay for his.—(Elear, hear.) It was contrary to
common sense to suppose that
.the Catholic could cope
with his neighbour the Protestant. He (Sir C. Napier)
would, just relate an anecdote bearing upon this subject.
lie was going on the road to Cork, in a common fly,
and he met a very decent-looking young lady—
(Lau,;hter)—he saw that she was a decent and respec-
table-looking girl.—(Continued laughter.) This was no
joke. He said to the young girl, " I suppose you are
all the better now the tithes are commuted, and the
proprietors pay all the tithes ?" She said, with the
utmost naivete, " Do you see that man working? He has
got a bit of garden for which he is obliged to pay tithes
to the Protestant clergyman, who he thinks is sending
his soul to the devil, and he is obliged to pay to the Ca-
tholic priests to prevent his going there."—(Laughter.)
What did this show, but that the Catholic, in point of
faith had to pay two tithes ? The Noble Lord, the Se-
cretary for the Colonies, in the course of his speech the
other night, read in the most solemn manner, the oath
which was taken by the Catholic Members of that
House. He (Sir Charles Napier) could not help say-
ing, that this was an insult to the Catholic Members of
that House.—(llear, hear.) The Noble Lord, after that,
inquired, if it was proposed to send the Catholic Bishops
into the House of Lords, because unless hey did, he
said, there could be no. equalisation. His (Sir C.
Napier's answer to that was, that he would send no. more
Bishops into the House of Lords, because there
were too many there already.—(Laughter.) He would
not say whether he would wish to see those out who
were in at present. He would ask the Noble Lord
whether he would continue to pay a Protestant clergy:
man a large salary, where there was no congregation ?
Could there be a more unjust thing than
that ? He looked upon the -idea as absurd.
They had for the last 300 years been endeavouring to
make all the people of Ireland Protestants, but they had
not succeeded, and he thought that everybody must see
that such an attempt could never succeed. Let the
Right lion. Baronet and his colleagues come forward
with some comprehensive measure with regard to Ire-
land. Much had been said about social rights in that
country, but these were not the only rights they had to
consider. There were others equally important. The
people of this country would never believe that the Ro-
man Catholic religion was the true one. They had
been taught by their parents to follow the Protestant
religion as the only proper one. If then this was the
case in England, let Hon. Members opposite show some
liberality of opinion towards the Irish Catholics. They
had been educated in their youth to look upon the Re-
man Catholic religion as the only true one, and it had
been inculcated upon them as the most perfect one.
These were his sentiments, and he hoped and trusted
that the Right Hon. Baronet, and Hon. Gentlemen who,
were with him, would get rid ere long of these prejus
dices, and that ultimately such measures would be
adopted with respect to Ireland as would give satisfac-
tion to the country at large.
Mr. GORE said that allusion had been made to the

Church of Scotland, but he did not think that the omic.4
of the Scottish and Irish churches were pirallol Pf4SOS,
Considering the anomalous miticin in Which the Church
stood, it was their ditty remove the inequality which
deprived the Church of respect and power, and to render
it what it ought to be—the source of religion and happi.
ness to the people. If the Government were tg 4t44-
duce meastu7es of such a, tendency, gi V Ilia

.. :,

_ -
utmost endeav,urs to support them. lie` thought thi!t
the total redemp ion of tithes ought to-be -one oethe fir;
measures upon ehich the Government ought to dete..
mine. Without undertaking to dictate to Goverruil
what they should do, he would only say that he wee
support them to the utmost c.d. his power, beelose hi,
had the utmost confidence in them, and he would enfl
tinue to give them his cordial and disinterested el-11'Fr;
Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN said the time had arrived Iva'
the Government could no longer temporise ; they Wei
either concilia'e or subdue. The English Governme,oo
had hitherto rated Ireland as a subjugated people, who
rendered it (the Government) powerful by their dissee:r
sions. England had formed a union, which gave to
an unwise domination, and neglected the °Oa',
tunities of a wiser and more fruitful incorporatl
but since that union; England had kept, hers°
in a state of cold and selfish isolation. For cell.
tunes Ireland had been governed by the division of race''
and afterwards by the power which sectarian difference
gave to her rulers. The union came, and Ireland Ir.
united, but not incorporated with the empire. "tuat
Catholics were partially emancipated, but they felt fete
freedom was not yet attained. They called for he
destruction of those sectarian differences which forel.i,
the most grevious part of their evils, and the most fruit
ful source of British power. The British Governintei;
maintained the Church of an opulent minority at .
expense of an impoverished and dissentient major't fe
All these grievances compelled four-fifths of the pe°,,Ppi
of Ireland to rally under the comprehensive watcliw"tbe
of Repeal. But the Imperial Parliament had
tbe
power, if it had the will, to consign to repose ,e,
awakened spiiit of nationality. The national energioi
were wasted in continual discussion, and the feelingsso
domestic life were disturbed and irritated. The Iteelhe
Catholics were denounced as unfit to discharge rbtat
ordinary functions of' free citizens.—(Hear, hear.) 11
then were the people of Ireland to look to ? The Ne
bers of the present Government were those ,5
who said that they had commenced emaneipatil
the combined consideration of expediency an c,
timidation.—(Hear, and cheers.) Whatever weight 'lO
pediency might have had with them he for one
convinced that intimidation had the greater fore?•,,i;
(Great cheers.) The Irish people were reproached
conspiracy, but by measures of comprehensive recf[eei
you can dissolve the combination.—(Cheers.) TLIos
were reproached with agitation, but Magna Cbartab,
carried by agitation. The Bill of Rights was carrica,4
agitation. Trial by Jury was maintained by agitanw,
o
The Presbyterian Church of Scotland was preserved, is
agitation. The independence of the Irish Parlianint,
I'B2 was obtained by agitation, and the emancipation elrrhe
Catholics was obtained by agitation.—(Cheers.) e
Hon. Member concluded by respectrully calling tirti,ioo
House to consummate the great Act of Emancipaiii
which was not yet completed—to carry to their coite•
the awakened spirit ot nationality—to temper its eet''
siasm—and, if they would, to regulate its aberrations.to
Mr. MONCK'ION MILNES having placed a eet
on the books, on the subject of Ireland, and that 100
notice of his having merged in the larger prensiat4
now before the House, he trusted he should be "a°. he
to make a few remarks. They. should be few, fe.fach
promised the House he was not going to give the W-0
he intended to have uttered had his own motion °to
on.—(Laughter.) It was an unfortnnate thing tiof
they never could get a discussion on Ireland in .yell
House, which did not turn out to be of an excla,slobo
party character.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the
tyre
Lord the Member for London had not confounded 0
thing s—a criticism on the late trials, and afterwe'd, of.
essay on what ought to be the future governine'teo
Ireland. They had been favoured with speeches„entiO
subjects which 'ought to have been kept widely als
Although the question of the late trials bore yell d, it
on the question of the future government of Ireloitl
had unfortunately been introduced, and had tainted;
whole debate with a violent party spirit. It too
matter they all knew, and all grieved about, thfloof
law was so little respected in Ireland. But it oughtm, 0
to have happened to the Noble Lord to be ,a Parted to,
bring the law into still less respect, as he had atm
do, by the remarks he indulged in, when sPeelti-Pr,
the recent prosecutions. He was reminded by thei,
duct of the Noble Lord of two lines in a wer
Dickens'.—(A laugh.)
Against the Bishop plead the Church's cause,
And from the Judge's vindicate the laws. ledge
And so, when giving what was real law and what rolere
made law, the Noble Lord should -recollect that dti
was hardly any case in which a person was found got,'
but what, according to his own opinion and statelne it.
was so found, not on the law, bitt.on some quibble 0 the
—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He must say feria
Noble Lord, or for himself, neither of whom knew„),,f°
thing whatever about the matter—(Great
speak in the irreverent and disrespectful waY Lr,/
had been done of those trials was most imprerperi;
(Hear, hear.) He should have thought that the eltic hoe
ence of office which Hon. Gentlemen opposite bltterlill
might have taught them the difficulties which ex,i';4o9
the way of a fair and impartial government of,';riit tbef
They ought also to know that if the measures whit
recommended were attempted to be carried into °oat
they would destroy Government after Govern wag
They all knew that Cathode emancipation ain't
carried by a combination of parties, and egoyle.
the opinion and the wishes of the English Pi,,4
—(Hear, hear.) The same feeling which e° sou
prevented and thwarted Catholic emancipatie, 11 0110
existed, and any endeavour at the present morn
depress the Protestant Church, or enlarge the Catblll
would meet with the most determined opposifienitt the
thought it, therefore, most impolitic and unwise fu
hnood
course opened by the Noble Lord (Russell), arldaf°,„
up to such an extent by the other Noble Lord (.."-u-'ilier?
and the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. mtro' ocl„
should have been taken by them without a,,ses"
"bleb
fication of the Opinions of the-people of England'
could only be managed by the small Preeetitae;!
(Laughter)—which they all knew so well, and to 01
would be tidly in a Government to propose fleYepose;
alterations as those susge4ed. If they were Pirte
they would not be adopted—they would annihlgl oe
Government.—CHear, hear.) Much bfaMe yes -051
the -people of England for this state of things"; ell,
much more, than on the Government. Whatel'elf th
were in Ireland were owing to -ourselves.. 001
priests were violent it was England made
so,- by leaving them a prey to every earer6
excitement. We had made them as they iates;
He shared this opinion with almost 'all the greats
ea the
men—(Laughter) —who . 'had ever administer 050'1
affairs ot this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) There ilell,,Pi,
doubt that such was the opinion of Mr. ritt.--"i• r
Although there remained no distinct record °tea Old
had never heard
.it doubted. It had been asserentiotity,
and over agein in that House, and had been I' friell
in ,et-Mversation by Mr: Pitt's- most intimate
_oopli%
Mr. PH, believed that the union would never ac „d 01)
its object as long as the Catholic clergy of Ireln-W;[,
left in their unregarded and degraded state•-loalwof
If a proof were wanted he found it in the de
eve eve lie
of the Roman Catholic bishops, made on L,"`catheof
the union. At an assembly of the Roman Of fie
bishops, held on the 17th, IBth, and. ion PIO
January, 1799, they admitted that the prov-i
posed by the Government for the Roman tere
d the
clergy ought to be thankfully accepted ; 811,,p tip of
an interference by the Government with tThis 110
ment of the bishops as would enable it to be se,o.
their loyalty was just and ought to be agreed ceee,!,p
that e,
same opinion was held by the very last of Dore to
tion of remarkable men—Lord Bidmouth• nriestlo
mouth made an offer to the Roman Catholic PO
receive from George the Third a share of Minn;,
donum at the time it was given to. the Presb}lt, voetio.
the Presbyterians it was accepted, but f!;',,oolee of
Catholic clergy very properly declared that !'e'caas cei
considered as a bribe to detach them from tntostlio
Catholic Emancipation. Under these eirc
they could not receive The s,alei
of
was held by Lord Grenville, and,
c.,l4e„,r`mitfreford
reagh avowed it frequently. Ia the '•
ki°:;entliolP
1825, when the question was brought prolniions 0100
ward, it was well known what were the opla t be
O'Connell and Mr. Sheil on this subject ; elitgers:'
not detain them on this point—they Was raiiich gr,;
they might all read for themselves, and thelergJ
had ever denied. In 1826, Lord Brou'113_1,1;:lic
Brougham, in reference to the RomatiCaL pro/losl
in Ireland, expressed himself in favour of f%l to oe
proposed the year before in 1825; a resolutalioritYivat
effect was passed in that House by .a largae_,lll other ife4
did not intend to bring this question in he ;V
distinctly and immediately before the 110 be pith
only declaring what he believed to 'O.O
sole, and single, and' true line of bet.t,ie';
they could get for the purpose ,to preie-ai
the condition of Ireland. He never intends " io s coof;
indeed, it would be an insult to do so—t°,:g,,eid he
money to the Catholic clergy, because it sa bribeblit ha
sidered now, as it was considered then
~.erea;
was a thing impossible—it could not be eeo ben,
would tell them what he thought could COu
and he had no doubt the House would 9g r_fol ;le ti°
on this point at least. The Ministers scent th
t"beo.
here in the right way. They had "done
Roman Catholic clergy would accept Innts'thatroe>"
every means of possessing the endowine
be left to them by persons of their owe.
,Pvery 0
(Hear, and a laugh.) That was. of course
earn line
et th
(Laughter.) But he would take it as an eTeling;4oo,e,'.
he would take it as an earnest of the
good id ti),l, of
Government in this matter; he hoped it w°,oilitrael:,,,, t 75;
up by some such measure as the
Commission to inquire into the state 0111ying, u i'llovj
tholic chapels in Ireland, with a vievy. 0 g Tina Jn.
of public money for the purpose of r,teilinefereiY in
rest
and now desecrated by misery
d
and which had every right in the war hoped. t,ostlt_,.tit
decorous state for public worehit
}leo
the Wig.
,%ei.'itt;„,
the invidious distinction, with respecti t e
away
rf
prelates of that Church, might he oidaild,
atta ti;be peof
(Hear, hear).---for, believing as be holieve,,lle4
member of the Church of England must the ~1,11 01th
feet right of those prelates to assll:ll...'veentlectel"tbc,
bishops and archbishops, though not „sou'
the sees, as any of our prelates had . L.%
he thought it would he fbolish and !ioubtfu',o pee
tion if they left that matte: any lolikeroSfeelinlice' aaer
them proceed by degrees to establish ago 0(4
._e 1;00
land—let them do it by degrees,,ecause %to; e$
he did not wish to do it at once, but ntilis ,tialYci
what was the feeling of the people of aud Preislo,l'es
the attbjeet. He knew that their feelinqs of see,vdic
were connected with the best princif.(o., pre.11000!
rhea heir ~no
religious liberty in this country.: were c 50.0.04
against the Roman Catholic e" see e'
which came dins to them from the tl_,Zeelie the
perk;ecution ank.t -Protestants, and the ev
that lan emhoics were at this titne rrlforeli'd feel`
Harty of the intolerance and bigotry th%,ions
„aootts
It was only by slow degrees the: suehePt. less-
ins could be eradicated, And oh ,
totters+ pg b.. 00
it to be to them to VA' tolerant in the.se_ipt
they sax how deeply such intolerance 11,1__1" wiikt.te 000
§llll. Nto the hearts of the English pegeF,l% 090;1011
ought it to be to all. sides to do nothing tr woolc
rage intolerance, when the saw Oat