The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

yew,
Or, Miller)? Ile was sure that no one would think that he
b.a.ighe leeward till- motion in any party spirit. He was
ind,ed scrry that a melancholy event had deprived him of the
- Its-i,t,nce of many who weithl have rendered him great service,
mare erreielly his .1‘4,-hle Friend ( Lord Howick) of whose
presence a recent melancholy event had deprived them for ever.
Li the recent division he had had the sueport of many Hon.
Gentlemen on the opposite side, and he would have had more
hut :hat assurances had been rested upon which were deemed
satisfautory. He b lieved that in such a question as this there
were, gentlemen opposite who would Lot allow party feeling to
operate, and he called upon them not to sacrifice an important
color y m-rely for the purpose of bolstering up the policy of any
Minister vs hatever.—( Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman concluded by moving that this House regards with
regret and apprehension the state of affairs in New Zealand ;
and that those feelings are greatly aggravated by the want of
any sufficieet evidence of a change in the policy which has led
to such dis-serous results. The Hon. Gentleman sat down
amidst Coto ineed cheering.
Mr. WAR') seconded the motiens
Mr. G. . HOPE -al .he would first address himself, in
rep'ying to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, to the personal
matter contained in this question. He felt now, as on for-
mer occasions, that f ord Stanley had, from the beginning to
the end ot this matter, been much aspersed. The first charge
brought against his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) by the Hon.
and Learned Member (Mr. C. Buller) was, that of nct
submitting the instructions to the New Zealand Company
which had been dispatched to the colony on the 7th of June.
In reply to this he might say that the minutes on which the
instructions to the colony were based had been submitted to a
private in tog of gentlemen connectel with the Company, and
they were ag -eed to by them. The dispatches were founded on
se minue-s, and the charge ot bad faith in reference to this
matter a, therefore entirely unfounded. Nothing was kept
bark r h-ld private from the deputation of gentlemen who had
applied to the Colonial-office for information on the subject.
This explieation he deemed quite satistactory, and he should
be step. iscei it any member of the deputation could be found
wh-;tv..uid tit try the statement of what took plate. There was
oiie Geetlemari present, who was a member of that deputa-
tion and who would much astenish him (Mr. Hope) if he
denied the truth of this.—( Hear, hear.) He had now dia.
posA ot this. one of the greatest charges against his Noble
Friend. Arid what did these deputations, of which so much
was said, advise? They advised that a kind and cordial spirit
shiSuld be manifested in all transactions with the natives, con-
sistent witt the interests of the colony. The Hon. Member
here read an extract from the instructions to Captain Fitzroy,
to ih street the t there should be, as tar as practicable, an
aniteahl settlement if all points pending between the natives
and the New Z -eland Company, and that he (the Governor)
should p, event anything like exorbitant demands, either on the
?art of the Company or the native chiefs. There had been no
deceit. therefore, minia-sted here.
Mr. C. BU' LEli—l did not say deceit. I said we had
been keiit in the (tat k.
Mr. HOPE—The lion. and Learned Member says he did
ten cl.art:e hi', Noble Friend with deceit, he only charged
him tai it it,epina the Company in the dark regardicg these in-
strut- ion Mat this was not the case he thought he had al-
real), show, the Houses—( Hear, hear)—though. on this point,
his Nebie Friend had suffei•eci attack and obloquy as if he had
done simierhing highly derogatory to the interests and prisi-
ng, o the Cirnapany.—( Cheers.) He could further point to
th, instructkns given to the Company by the Government,
showing that there had been a desire to meet the bona fide
claims ot tha Company, as tar as it was consistent with the ebli-
pa' tars and honour of the country. The Hon. and Learned
Member only read a l o-tion of the instructions to the House, to
whicit he ..fijeeted. He did not read that which referred
to what he (Mr. Hope) had just adduced. He
ould, the, chore, read that portion of the instructions
ta show the H. use that they bore out the construction he had
put upon them. The Hon. Gentleman read a passage from
the instructions recommending that it was necessary that effec-
tual saes„ saould be taken to settle amicably the claims of the
Conant con-iftently with the rights of the natives.—( Hear.)
Before chose instructions were dispatched to the colony a depu-
taton vs,-iteil upon his Noble Friend, and he (Lord Stanley)
ma ,e no l,esltation its communicating the nature of the dis-
pa.ch. Yet he was charged with keeping back information—a
charg-- wh,e,h he must say was most unjust.—( Hear, hear.)
Complaint bad been made by the Company on an award being
recommended that its acceptance would place them in a worse
position :han otherwise, with regard to the natives. In 1843
this was the course resolved on. It was then iu instructions
sent cut to Capt. Fi zroy, stated that he should co-operate
with the ag,nrs rif the l ompany in arranging with the natives
about the ,alt of lands. In accordance with those instructions
Capt. Sta nes was appointed as Commissioner; and he would
reat a ',moon of a dispatch of the 19th of July, on the result of
this appointment. The extract read by the Hon. Member was
to the eff-et that in every arrangement about the lands with
the natives, the Company in every case in which there was any
&milt about title should have sufficient compensation for all
improvements that had been effected.—( Hear, hear.) The
Comm.ssioners acted in the spirit ot this instruc-
tion, ;tint prr,ce ederi to award fairly between the natives anti
the Company. the Gee rnment considering that this was the
course he-t calculited to settle these unfortunate differences.
The 11m,. aim Learned Member in describing the state of the
colony, epee, al entirely from a letter of Mr. Cowley, but had
not referr d to other imp rtant letters and communications
that had reached this country. He had not referred to the
)(eters of L'oyo's agents and others, who had at least equal
means of iiiiorinttion. He had limited himself to the corn-
municat;ii. o one min, in order to thaw a frightful picture.—
( Hear, hear.) A. ri what he had read was more calculated to
show the character ot the s.ttlers in the north and north-west
ot the coloicy, than to prove that there was any great danger.
Sailors and the you, hs that had been sent out from Parkhurst Pe-
nitent iary had been represented as exciting disorder in the colony,
stateineets he believed there was no little exagge-
ra i i t• at has been said about the subordination of these
employed to excite sympathy, and to spread alarm
a, .:. ,;; tit. at tie colony. These youths from Park-
hu :if r titch cmapliint had been made. Lad been placed in
the pen eent la y .n order to reclaim them from their bad habit's;
and th,y were seat nut ther,, as it was not censidered safe to turn
them out loose here, :n order to give them a chance of escaping
bid habits. l'har very day his Noble Friend hail received dis

parole. inn Au..klAnd, dattd the 25th, and stating ,hat disaf-
fec6 ti rily ea„ wird toa portion of the tribes, aid that there
was =.t: (ig hope Olaf
.all the d:fficuities would pass over without
ar y :ruinotions.- A letter h i.t also been received which
stated that. 'trice the las, instructions from the colony the North
Star ha:i arrived with 1r Omen. which arrival had done much
to calm the min s of the settlers, and that the news from
the disiu.b: d ttiori,ts represented matters as much quieter
than they were. This dispatch was from no agent of the Govern-

m.,nt, bit novo a gentlen.an who stated in a very independent
ma-ner wi a he saw. But the Hon. and Learned Member
sat ; nis I ,t• -te from New Zealand is of the 28th;
now tc ( Mr. Hope) had ittf rmatinn a day later. In a news-
pale r, puiikhed there on the 29th, which he had received, it
was •tated that the `Zie hoops had arrived in the North Star
sty arelack t, at conlanie., by six field pieces; that the forts
had le on plaecd in a proper state of defence ; that block-houses
had been erected, and every .tep taken to plate the settlement
in a proper w ate of defence. —( Hear, hear.) It was further
stated that there was an improved feeling of security in the
eelony, and t'at the natives had made nu further opposition.
He wonld sate this to the House, in opposi ion to Mr. Car-
snaek', ,tatement; which had been adduced by the Hon. and
Learned Member. But it was said that, in furthering and pro-
tee lig tit. itre ears of Auekland they had neglected Wellington.
Tliii was not true, for assoon as the troops arrived from Sydney a
portion we, e itn nediately .etit off to Wellnvon, in order to
pro ret he interests of that settlement. It was not right,
therefore, to chat-ge the Government with culpable neglect.
The Hint. and Leo-fled GeAlems.n complained of the military
fore • placed at the dapo-al of New Zealand. Why, when the
Noble Lord the Member for the City of London was at the
head of the Colonial Department, and application was made to
him fur a mni'ary force for the colony, a hundred men was the
total force allowed them; and when the colonists complained
that the force was too little, they were told they could be sup-
plied wi h no more.
Lord J. RUSSELL—At that time.

Mr. HOPE The military force had since averaged from

150 to 2 0 men. The available force in the Australian colo-
nies nitoge.her had tormerly been 1,60. In 1843. it was
2,400 ; and now there would be an available force of 4,000
men ; that was. whenever the regiments on their progress from
India and this country had arrived there. This, he believed,

was a competent force t, maintain the authority of the Queen
. _

in th.t coli:ny ; and to defend the settlers in the islinds from

. •
the at! aeks of the natives. Th tre was, however, no proof
that any conteileration of the natives would take place—that
they tvoutii uu e ag or st the settlers and require any great
demo. stration of military power. The native tribes had
never yet united, nor, in his opinion, would they do so,
uniess steno thing, was done to give them strong cause to com-
bine their interests and sympathies in a combined system. This
brought him to the point that the acts of the natives had re-
sulted from the policy of the Government; that the disaffec-
tion in the colony was to attributed to this al roe. The Hon.
and Le; rod Gentleman had quoted Mr. Busby in support of
this opinit,n, and yet that gentleman. in another portion of this
statement, attributed the difficulties which had arisen to the
disp,sHon f the naitves to deny the stivere-Tnty of this country,
and to overthrow the authority •of her Arajesty. It was said
that Ca-tain Ft z,-oy had been nut-ported by his Noble Friend,
nui-h ;is no Go.rrilor -.ay ever supported. Now he wanted to
know he au• hori v for such a statement. This was not the case.
So far front its being so, he had been called into question on many
material points. On his financial prone« dings, in the sale of
lawfs, is tht raising of the 'militia, in the expenses of his Go-
vernment, and in forming laws by his mulled in a hurried and

unta..kactory manner,—on all th,..e points he had been called in
que!•tio.i. ith regard to Mr. Shoulbread, his secretary, to
whom, ref,•reriee had been made, he had, no doubt, been charged
with malver,ation in hi- .411ce ; but he was bound to state

that u;.on air env s,,gation .akii.g place there were no ground
For the e:.arg... ‘lr. shoulhread resign4.d his office, is Captain
Fitzro had (x! ressed himsulf that he had no confidence in
him, e he ( )must say he saw no reason whatever

gentle m
for 'Lis ur e. It was hard thit a's prospects in
life a oin d he ruined upon a mere suspcion, which ras, not
n truth. an.l he had recently been apPoiLedoutro
the G vet ttor.bili in the West Indies. The
able at Learoed Member next complained of the place
tie tat ha.' b.-en fixed. In answer to that he might
refe, t., rut! ins .cut out by the Noble Lord the Member
for of London (Lori John Ituvvell) to Captain Hob-
-500 fl wa., in trusted to fix the capital in the
te(r:.,r nt-i:,g ire G verntoent, and not in that of the
Hon. Aleiober then re,d an extract train the
ins, ocricos iu qeration to that effect. It was clear, therefore,
that Captain Hobson win out with instructions to fix the
cai.oitl in Government laud. Auckland was in consequence
d. and he was bound to sail it was the best that could be
selected fir the p tp soy of trade and commerce. To abandon
that, as had been pr peed, would have been, in his opinion, a
moat fatal and ru rc.us course. The municipal institutions had
so been ri ferreil to, and complaints had been
imfald2,xlarditl.at were not assimilated to those
was never intended. The municipal dis-
tricts were tracts ,Jt country mapped out for the purposes of
colonial Government and had no analogy to such institutions as
those that went by 'he
referred
name in England. The Hon.
Gentleman then, bri.V to the charge against the
Government of =posh g
tax
whi&,
had
been
the Company's settlers,
analjti,!ified the eintaken is that matter by
reierenee to what had b• en n
done
leyed had been fully
Canada under similar
eircurnsoances. Thi:‘, however, he co
lot:
met 11l the previous M bate, without his going further into the
objection at present, It had been
shown
towards ththat the
been no breach of honesty and good
by fs
thethere had
colony or the ;few Ze.d
and Company Government.
There will one other tnoter, to which the Hon. and Learned
Member referred, and on wl ich the Hon. Member for j
Lam-
beth
s.eeni
to lay considerable emphasis on a previous e
occa-
sion—ate meant the vote given by himself (Mr. Hope) th;
4 :onitnittee of 1t340 The question, as it seemed to have some
importaii,„ att,ebed to it, he should be happy to refer to.
It was. whether it was a wi,e cour.e to recognise the indepen.
den e of New Zealand ? and he was of the same opinion
now, for he thought it a most unwise course, But now the
Hon. Gentleman turned round, and ,aid, yin are inconsistent,
you supported LA, indepet.dence of New Zealand then, and
why turn round now, and advocate a different poiiey ? He
could only repeat, that he was still of the same opinion, but
that independence having been acknowledged, it would now
bit•still snore unwise to adopt a different system. He now came
to the conclosion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's address,
and what the Hon. and Learned Member diitingui,hed
as "ring dropping." Those words might be used in a
very ext.oided rise—( Lat.ghter )—and he believed that the Hon.
and Learned Mem :er meant as much by them, namely, to ob-
tain for the Company itself the land they wished to become en-
lee. to. That was the principle of the policy which alone