The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-05 00:00:00

TUE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY -EVENING, APRIL 5, 1845.

league had been spoken of, by a Noble Lord, as a degraded
man, by which it appeared quite clear that the Hon. Member
was not in his place at the time of the alleged charge, for if
be had been, he would have found that no such charge had
been made. In conclusion, he begged to say that, atter all
that had passed, he had but to repeat his former declaration,
that their power had :never been exercised by her Majesty's
Ministers from any other motive than a sense—a painful one,
he admitted, and perhaps, in some instances, a mistaken one—
of public duty. He would not move any amendment, but he
hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion.
Mr. HUME said that it appeared to him that this subject
had now been completely exhausted ; and therefore he would
merelv express a hope that it would stet as a caution for Minis-
ters in future not to repeat such practices. He was sorry the
Hon. Member should press the House to a division, but if he
did he should divide with him, as he was most anxious to see
this document.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES declared that he should vote
in favour of the motion, as he could not see why this warrant,
if such there was in existence, should not be produced as well
as any other public document.
Dr. BOW RING bore his testimony to the high character of
Mr. Mazzini, A more honourable man—a more sterling
patriot, or purely moral character, did not exist ; and though
his love of country was great, his abhorrence of crime was
greater, and therefore it was that a total ignorance of his cha-
racter by those who suspected him of those crimes, the sus-
picion of which had caused his letters to be opened, had led to
the course adopted towards him.
Colonel WYNDHAM said he knew nothing of Mr. Mazzini,
but he would be very sorry to be placed in his position.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said he considered that the
speech of Dr. Bowring was one that did him honour, fur he
spoke from his knowledge of the character of a man who was
alone and friendless in this country ; while Hon. Members
opposite, who knew nothing of Mr. Mazzini, had pronounced a
contrary opinion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had already answered the ques-
tion this evening. He did not trump up statements, but had
laid dispatches upon the table of the House from foreign Courts ;
and if it should appear from these documents that an act of in-
justice had been done to Mr. Mazzini, he need not say that no
Member of the House would be more ready than he should be
to make him the most ample reparation ; and he begged to
add, that he would be more ready to do so to an unprotected
foreigner than to any Member of that House.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 22
Against it
Majority against the m0ti0n.......... —5l
LIFE AND FOOT GUARDS.

epective countries, he would, in general terms, allude to the
negotiations which had taken &ace between them. An imps-.
toot negotiation was carried on in London between Mr. Rush,
on ;he part of the United States, and Mr. Huskisson ar.d Mr.
Stratford Canning, on the part of England. Certain proposals
were made by Mr. Rush, amongst others that no colonisation
should take place on the American boundary. The claim was
at once denied by Mr. Canning. 'I he claim to the Oregon ter-
ritory was also peremptorily denied, but at the same time
Mr. Canning did authorise Mr. Huskisson to propose a com-
promise on this subject, and the line which had been agreed on
running along the 49th parallel of north latitude to the Rocky
Mountains should be carried on beyond the Rocky Mountains
to a branch of the Columbian rivea called the Magilicuddy
River, thence to the main stream of the Columbia, and this
was to be the boundary line between the two nations. Mr.
Canoine would not give up the settlement north of the Co-
lumbia,because he wished to have the full advantege of the
harbour. lie (Lord J. Russell) thought this was a very
equitable proposal on the part of Mr. Canning, The proimsal
was rejected by the American Government, and it became
necessary to renew the conven ion, by which it was agreed that
Great Britain and the United States should have the power to
occupy end settle, without claiming sovereignty over any part
of that territory. Such was the state of the question
down to the present time, but new events had now arisen,
The President cf the United States had made a peremptory
claim to the whole of that territory, and, in an unusual manner,
had called upon the people of the United States, with their
wives and children, to occupy it. The territory was becoming
of more importance every year. After this statement of the
President it was impossible that the Government would not
endeavour to have a speedy solution of this difficulty. If they
would feel it impossible that the present unsettled state of re-
lations between the two countries should be allowed to con-
tinue without the danger that the people of the United States,
acting on the suggestion of the President, would endeavour to
disturb British subjects in the enjoyment of their rights,
which they held by treaty, and thus promote a state of relation
dangerous to the peace of both countries.— ( Hear.) He ,
would say, with all moderation, that this country should not ;
abate anything of their just pretensions.—( hear.) He would ;
not pretend to define what course the Government ought to take,
nor where they ought to draw the line, but he would say that
they would not propos? anything less than Mr. Canning
had done with any regard to the interests of Great Britain.—
( Hear, hear.) He might be told that the Oregon territory
claimed by the United States was not of much value, and that it
did not matter much who possessed it. " Yes, Sir," (said the
Noble Lord), "hut I say it does matter."—( Hear, hear.) A
large territory cannot be a matter of indifference, particularly
where our title is better and juster, nor should it be yielded
under such cis cumstances to what he might call the blustering
announcement—( Loud cries of " Near, hear," in which Sir R.
Peel loudly joined)—on the part of the President of the United
States. A communication with China and East India, and the
whole of South America, could not be a matter of indifference.
The surrender of such advantages to a foreign power could not,
he repeated, be regarded with indifference. It was not a matter
of indifference that the tone and character of England should
be lowered in a transaction carried on with the United States.
He thanked the House for the patience with which they had
listened to him whilst he made this imperfect statement.—
(Cheers, in which Sir Robert Peel joined.) He should
not have interfered if the matter had been left to
diplomatic arrangement between Lard Aberdeen and Mr.
Buchanan ; but he felt that a Minister, from his position, could
not well introduce the matter; and so he thought it right to
tell the House and the people of this country what were their
rights.—(Cheers.) With this statement he would leave the
matter in the hands of the Government of the country, and he
would not express the smallest doubt that in all their proceed-
ings they would duly consult the interests of the country and
the honour of the Crown, whose Ministers they were.—(Loud
and prolonged cheering from both sides of the House. )
Sir R. PEEL--I cannot be surprised—l must say that I
cannot regret—that the Noble Lord has taken the opportunity
of delivering the sentiments which he has expressed in the
course of his speech.—( Hear, hear.) I think that the Noble
Lord has justly defined the limits within which it is wise to
introduce into a popular assembly and pending a negotiation
matters affecting important interests of two great countries.
I think that the Noble Lard has justly defined the line within
which a Member of Parliament should limit the exercise of
his right to discuss such matters.—( Hear, hear.) 'While these
matters are Pending, through negotiation, between regularly
constituted authorities, then undoubtedly it is politic, unless
great reasons for the exercise of the right exist, to abstain from
the exercise of free discussion in a popular assembly on matters
still pending and negotiating between this country and others.
It is so easy to excite public feeling, that unless there should
be some grave and cogent argument in favour of a contrary
course, it is much better to leave such matters I have re-
ferred to to the dispassionate consideration of those en-
trusted with the guardianship of the honour and interests of
the respective countries.—( Hear, hear.) But if the Noble
Lord felt it his duty to depart from this course, I must say
he is not responsible for any consequences which may
arise therefrom.—(Hear, hear.) He says, and with truth,
that it would appear from the latest communications
from the United States that this important matter has
been withdrawn from the cognizance of those authorities to
whom, up to a recent period, it had been entrusted. —(Hear,
hear.) Appeals have been made for the decision of this
matter to other authorities than those who were previously
recognised.--( Hear.) The Noble Lord has justly said, that
in speaking on this subject, a Minister of the Crown speaks
under obligations and engagements of reserve from which he,
as an individual Member of Parliament, is free. Ido not thin k
it consistent with my duty to follow the Noble Lord through a
consideration and discussion of the grounds on which the
United States have urged their claim. It would be impos-
sible for me to do so without expressing, or at least implying
opinions, which I think it would be more consistent with my
duty not to do. I will only correct the Noble Lord in one
part of his speech in which I think he was mistaken.
The Noble Lord is in error in supposing that the ultimate
offsr made to the United States by Mr. Canning was the line
of the M'Gillivery and the Columbia rivers as the boundary
between the two countries. A further offer was made by Mr.
Huskisson and Mr. Addington to Mr. Gallatin in the year
1828, of which probably the Noble Lord was not cognizant.
It included a harbour in the Straits of De Fuca, and a consi-
derable tract of country to the southward of the Straits of
De Ftl,!3, and bounded by the Straits on the north, a canal
called Hood's Canal un the east, the Pacific on the west, and
a line drawn from the southern point of Gray's Harbour to
the southern point of Hood's Canal. This peninsular is to the
north of the Columbia River. I think I should abstain from
the further discussion of these claims; but I do feel it open to
me to inform the House of what is the general state of our ne-
gotiations with the United States. Perhaps it will be conve-
nient for me to refer to the statement I made the other night,
in consequence of a question from the Hon. Member for Bath.
I stated, that in 1818 the northern boundary of the United
States, and the boundary of the British possessions to the east-
ward of the Rocky Mountains, were defined. It was carried
to the point where the 49th parallel of north latitude intercepts
the Rocky Mountains. No definite agreement was made with
regard to the territory westward of the Rocky Mountains, but
a convention was agreed to in 1818, which gave a right of
joint occupation to the subjects of both countries, and which
convention was to endure for ten years. In the course of 1824
and 1826 efforts were made by Mr. Canning for an amicable
adjustment of the respective claims of both countries. Those
efforts, continued under the auspices of a man of great ability,
entirely failed. The proposal we made to the United
States was rejected by them, and the proposal they made
was rejected by us. At the expiration of the ten years,
as the convention would expire, a new convention was en-
tered into in 1827, which continued in force for a further
period of ten years. The convention of 1827, with this
additional proviso distinguishing it from the (rein-
vention of 1818, namely that the convention of 1827 shoald
not necessarily be determined by the lapse of time, but should
continue in farce for an indefinite period, each party having the
power of terminating it at the expiration of a year, by notice
given a year before; and in that case the rights of the two
parties were to revive and not to be prejudiced. That is the
convention which now determines our relations with the United
States with respect to the territory in question, which I will
call the Oregon territory. Thinking it of great importance
that the causes of future difficulty should be prevented by an
amicable settlement of our claim, Mr. Pakenham was directed
to enter into negotiations with the Government of the United
States for the purpose of effecting that amicable arrangement
on principles equitable and just to the two countries. The ne-
gotiation was continued during the presidency of Mr. Tyler,
almost from the hour when Mr. Pakenham entered on the
performance of his duties in the United States ; and perhaps
it may be useful that I should read the notice taken of the progress
of those negotiations, in a message of the President of the
United States to both Houses of Congress, so late as the period
of the 3d of December, 1844. The President states :
" Since the close of your last session a negotiation has been
formally entered upon between the Secretary of State and
her Britannic Majesty's Minister Plenip dentiary and Envoy
Extraordinary residing at Washington, relative to the rights
of their respective nations in and over the Oregon territory.
That negotiation is still pending. Should it, during your
session, be brought to a definite conclusion, the result will
be promply communicated to Congress. I would, however,
again call your attention to the recommendations contained
in previous messages, designed to protect and facilitate
emigration to that territory. The establishment of military
post's, at suitable points, upon the extended line of land travel,
would enable our citizens to emigrate in comparative safety
to the fertile regions below the falls of the Columbia, and
make the provision of the existing convention for the joint
occupation of the territory by the subjects of Great Britain
and the citizens of the United States more available than
heretofore to the latter. These posts would constitute places
of rest for the weary emigrant, where he would be sheltered
securely against the danger of attack from the Indians, and be
enabled to recover from the exhaustion of a long line of
travel. Legislative enactments should also be made, which
should spread over him the 'segis of our laws, so as to afford
protection to his person and property when he shall have
reached his distant home. In this latter respect, the British
Government has been much more careful of the interests of
such of her people as are to be found in that country than have
the United States. She has made necessary provision for their
security and protection against the acts of the viciously dis-
posed and lawless, and her emigrant reposes in safety under the
panoply of her laws. Whatever may be the result of the pend-
ing negotiation, such measures are necessary. It will afford me
the greatest pleasure to witness a happy and favourable termi-
nation to the existing negotiation upon terms compatible with
the public honour; and the best efforts of the Government will
atees,,e; of Congress, delivered by the late President, Mr,
continue to be directed to this end." That was the message to
both
Tyler, Heir, hear.) Nothing
eou o
ldbsetile a
aloes
generally
December 3, 8-14.
friendly
0r Th( owa greater desire to
effect an amicable arrangement by negotiation.—(Hear, hear.)
But at a later period still, a motion was made in Congress for
an address to the Executive Government, piaying that all
paper... 'elating to this negotiation should be laid on the table
of the House, It was necessary for the President, Mr. Tyler,
to reply to that Odaase, and the reply he made is as late
as the 19th of February, 803 about a fortnight betore this
inaugural speech, for it ie not a message, wee delivered, to
which the Noble Lord has referred.—( Hear, hear.) And
what is the answer of Mr. Tyler 2 It is as follows :
"To the Senate of the United States,--In answer to the
resolution of the Senate of the 11th of December, 1844, re-
questing the President to lay before the Senate, if in his judge
rent that may be done without prejudice to the public inte-
rests, a copy of any instructions which may have been given by
tie executive to the American Minister in England, on the
subject of the title fo end occupation of the territory of Oregon,
since the 4th day of March, 441 ; also a copy of any cor-
respondence which may have passed between this Government
and that of Great Britain, or between either of the two Go-
vernments and the Minister of the other, in relation to that
subject since that time—l have to say, that in my opinion, as
the negotiation is still pending, the information ought for
cannot be communicated witagot prejudice tp the public
service. I deem it, however, proper to add, that considerable
horogress has been made in the discussion, which has been car-
tied on in a very amicable spirit between the two Govern-
ments; and that giro ;rs reason to hope that it may be
terminated, and the negotiation ;:o beoeght to a close
within a short period. 1 have delayed answering the re-
Soltition uritti the Pxnectation expressed. in •my annualmeFsige, that the-negotiation wonia pave heen 'terminated
before the close of the prose it session' Cong*ress;and thap
the inforina.tio4 Idr by the resolution of the'S.' Igft •i• 'm '''t
be communicated. a •

which the late President declined to produce these papers.
On the 4th of larch, 1845, the present President made his '
inaugural addres_the address which has caused the observa-
tions that have filen from the Noble Lord. I think it right
to state to the House that since that inaugural address was de •
livered we have had no communication whatever from our
own Minister inthe United States. He wrote a letter trans-
mitting that addrss, but he had not time to make any ob-
servations upon i. The Government of the present Presi-
dent has been splinted very recently, and no diplomatic com-
munications, tha we are aware of, have taken place between
our Minister ant that Government; they may have since
taken place, but it the date of the last accounts the installation
of the Pre.sident'i Government was so recent that no diplomatie
communications Sidi it had been entered into. I think it
highly probable tlat Mr. Pakenham would have continued with
the present Government of the United States the pending ne-
gotiation, but sine the resignation of Mr. Calhoun, and the
appointment of Me Buchanan, we have had no intelligence of
the state of that negotiation. All we know of the subject is the
statement contained in the American President's address. I
have said it is highly probable that these negotiations
have been renewed by Mr. Palo nham with the Government
that has been apiointed, and at no distant period the result of
that renewal must be known. Sir, I consider it my duty, not-
withstanding the Itnguage of the Presidentof the United States,
not to despair of a favourable result to that negotiation.—
(Cheers.) But in case there should be an unfavourable issue,
and by an unfavotrable issue I mean only if the proposal we
make should be rejected, and no counter pol:int likely to lead
to an amicable adjustment should he made by the United States
—should this be tEe issue of the negotiations, then her Ma-
jesiy's Government will not object to lay on the table of the
House all the communications that have taken place on the
subject.—( Loud cheers.) I trust, however, that this may not
be necessary ;
ad-
justment of the claims of the two countries may be made, not•
withstandingl atoll hope an amicable and equitable
the language of the address. I must, however,
express my deep regret, that while this negotiation is pending,
the chief executive officer of the United States, in a public
address, should, coetrary to all usage have referred to any
other contingency than the friendly and satisfactoi y termina-
tion of these differences.--(Cheers.) Such a reference is
not likely to lead to that issue wh ch every friend to the con-
tinuance of amicable relations between the two countries
must desire,
namely, the equitable adjustment of the differences
(41
that have arisen.—
es-ear. ) I deeply regret, not only the re-
feren es itself, but the tone and temper in which that reference
is made.--(Loud cheers.) As the subject has been brought
under discussion, and 1 think not improperly, by the Noble
Lord,
I feel it my imperative duty, on the part of he: Majesty's
Government, to s ate, in language the most temperate, but
most decided, that we consider we have rights in respect of the
territory of Oregon which are clear and unquestionable; that
we trust still to effect an amicable adjustment of these claims—
that we desire to effect that adjustment—but having exhausted
every effort to effeez that arrangement, if our tights are in-
vaded we are resolved, and are prepared, to maintain them.—
(Immense cheering from bath sides of the House.) That de-
claration on my part may induce the House, although I believe
each individual Member of it has a right to enter into the pre-
sent discussion, to refrain from raising one, considering that
such a discussion in a public assembly, although it may be jus-
tifiable, may yet have a tendency to prevent that result we
must all desire. I confess, therefore, it would be satisfactory
to me' if, notwithstanding the provocition to discussion, indi-
vidual Members of the House will leave this matter where it is
—in the hands of her Majesty's Government.—( Cheers. )
Lord J. RUSSELL, after making an explanation concern-
ing the proposal which was made to Mr. Canning, said that
he carefully abstained from making any motion, and, after
what the Right Hon. Baronet had said, he would not make
any motion of the kind until the Government were prepared
to answer t.
Lord PALMERSTON agreed with the Right Honourable
Baronet that it was not expedient for Hon. Members to press
this matter any farther. He would take the opportunity of
looking to quotations made by a Noble Lord in another place.
He found that those quotations were taken from dispatches
which he himself had laid upon the table of the House. He
should only say that upon the points which had been alluded to,
or with regard to the objections which might be made with re-
!pet to the arguments made by him, and which the Noble
Lord called the Ashburton recapitulation, nothing that had
been said in that other place could be taken as an answer to
those arguments which two years age he took the liberty of
making to this House. Objection had been taken to the manner
in which he had stated his views ow this subject. He trusted
that on every occasion in which it was his duty to state his
opinions on this subject, he had always abstained as much as he
could from any personal attack upon anybody.
The subject then dropped.
POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE.
Mr. WAKLEY (on the Speaker leaving the Chair for
going into a Committee of Supply) said that, as there had
been a misunderstanding with reference to the bringing on of
his motion—his Hon. and Gallant Colleague was not in his
place—he would, if possible, postpone his motion ; but as
there would not be a Committee of Supply on Monday even-
ing, he should now go on with his motion. If the Right Hon.
Baronet the secretary for the Home Department would pro.
duce the warrant moved for, he would be saved the trouble of
bringing the matter under the discussion of the House ; but
as he refused to consent to do so, he should take the sense of
the House upon it. The Hon. Gentleman then moved for a
copy of any warrant or warrants sent to the Postmaster-
General by any Secretary of State, directing the detaining or
opening of any letter or letters to, or written by, Thomas
Slingsby Duncombe, Esq. It would be recollected that, im-
mediately before Easter, he presented petitions to the House
from a number of his constituents, praying that the House
would institute an inquiry which would satisfy the public at
large as to the necessity of opening Mr. Dui combo's letters,
that they might know whether he was any longer entitled to
represent them. That was the object of his motion. It was
considered in that borough that he had been subjected to un-
just treatment by her Majesty's Government. It would be
harassing to go over the details of the matter, but it seemed
most extraordinary that his Hon. Colleague, who first brought
the subject before the House in reference to Mr. Mazzini's
letters, that he who charged the Government in that transac-
tion should have his own letters opened. He (Mr. Duncombe)
made every effort in his power to prevent the effect of those
aspersions which might be cast upon him, for he
brought it under the consideration of the House frequently,
and offered to maintain his charge at the bar of the House, and
called for an examination of the parties concerned at the bar
of the House. The motion lie now made, he believed, would
share the same fate as that of his lion. colleague, but it would
only convince him of the unjust treatment which he had re.
ceived. If his letters were opened, why not state the circum.
stances under which it was done, in the same way as the facts
relative to the opening of Mr. Mazzini's letters were laid before
the House ? The Right Hon. Gentleman stated to the House
from the communication he received his information with
reference to Mr. Mazzini. He stated that the warrant
issued by him was dated the ist of March, 1844, and that
he had received a dispatch, stating that the Belgians had re-
fused to allow Mr. Mazzini into their country in consequence
of disturbances he had raised in France, and said that if any
fault was committed it was his fault. Nothing could be more
satisfactory than the manner in which lie showed that he acted
upon the information which he believed to be true. But what
was tho course pursued by them with respect to his Hon.
Colleague? He (Mr. Duncombe) said that his correspondence
had been violated in the Post-office, but they got no acknow-
ledgement from the Government as to whether they were opened
or not, and in that refusal the Government were supported by
a majority of the House. Had not his Hon. Friend a right to
know who assailed his character at the Home-office ? He
knew not by whom his character had been misrepresented,
and he had a right to urge that he had been ill-used by her
Majesty's Government. His constituents did not know what
to believe, they had good reason to believe that he had acted as
a good representative, but still when they had found that her
Majesty's Government had considered it to be their duty to
open his letters at the Post-office, they had a right to know
under what circumstances that had been done. If the facts
are stated in one case, why are they not made known in the
other ? The responsibility rests on the majority of this House,
and if they decide, no matter how unjustly or inconsistently,
there is no appeal from that decision. If this warrant were
issued and a prosecution instituted in any of the courts of law
against one of the servants of the Post-office for having,
opened the letters of his Hon.
Colleague, that warrant
should be produced on the trial, and the absence of it would
defeat the prosecution, or submit the party to the consequences
of a conviction for a misdemeanour ; and what means of escape
would they have under the statutes of Anne, or the other Acts,
without the production of the warrant, for such a course of
procedure ? But he saw clearly that the Government, so far
from meeting this question in a fair and open manner, were
fencing with it in a fashion not at all creditable. Would it not
be more creditable on their part, either to produce the warrant
at once, or declare frankly that no such warrant existed ?
( Hear, hear.) But the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir J.
Graham), so far from adopting either of these courses,
declines both, and relies entirely on his tyrannical majority.
It was not upon au adherence to law, but upon a reliance on
foice that the Right Hon. Baronet fall beck upon. It was not
reason, it was not justice. How, he would ask, would any
Member of the Government like to be so treated? The
answer was obvious. A Noble Lord opposite had said that his
(Mr. Wakley's) Hon. Colleague was a degraded person.--
(Cries of " No, no, " from the Oosition.) Well, then, could
it be believed that his Hon. Colleague's letters had been
opened without some such alleged cause ?—( Hear, hear.)
But notwithstanding every argument that his Hon. Colleague
had urged, with the view to elicit an answer, the
only one ever vouchsafed was, "We are determined not
to say whether there was any warrant for opening the letters
or not."—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Wakley) begged again to
repeat that great di•satisfaction existed out of doors upon this
subject, and the feelings of his constituents in particular were
most intense, for they could not understand why his Hon. Col-
league, who had discharged his Parliamentary duties with so
much ability and zeal, should be so treated by a majority of that
House. 'the question theu uairuwed itself into this. Was this
warrant to be produced, or was it not? He feared that the
latter would be the answer; for it appeared to him that the
Government were as obdurate now as they were in the begin-
ning of this discussion. Considering the inanner in which his
Hon. colleague hail dealt with this question from the com-
mencement, the wound which his feelings had endured, the
bold tone in which he had attemeted to vindicate himself, and
the whole character of this transaction, he (Mr. Wakley) felt
bound to say that but one feeling could exist in the public
mind, if this motion should be refused, and that was, that great
injustice had been done. He knew . there would be a majority
against him, but that did not alter the tone of the public mind,
and particularly of the constituency of Finsbury, who felt that
their representative had been aggrieved, and was entitled to re-
dress.--( Hear, hear.) It had been said that his Hon. Col-
ection
league hadbecr engaged in illegal practices, which had induced
very few
aspersionsw n u :east;
the Government to take this step in his regard ; if so, would it
not be but fair to let him know who his calumniators were. The
HoAni.r.l%
AIS said be rose to second the proposition of
and in doing so he begged to assure the
hilisouliseonth.atFrhoiends
IlevmmbeLrylconcluded by proposing his resolution.
i s
wasoccupya it busrneltoi
etiootni foontros aavned which
no
obi
could be made, because great
been cast unit the character of Mr. Duncombe, which were
most unjust and unjustifiable. 1
(Mr. Williams) regretted
that this motion should have been brought forward in so thin
He did think thwatoutlldi
andtherefore he hoped that his Hon. Friend would
not perseverein it, but Übe did lie should vote with him,
Sir .1. G RAMA M said, the Hon. Member who had brought
forward this stated in his motion had address that
if he had c°l"lted his owls feelings and judg-
ment he woild rot have brought it forward at all ; and he
( Sir James graham) believed it was not more painful to the
feelings of the lion, Member than it was to the majority of
that House. The Hon. Member had also expressed his regret
that his costituents should have required him to adopt this
done so, he had exhausted all
course, but havine is ingenuity,
though he hid fired to introduce any new topic or argument.
The non. rlember had spoken of ministerial responsibility, as
but he (Sir Graham) if it was mater no moment, -,. ahem) hegira
tq say that lie feelings were net so aloes at not tie be painfully
elive to this responsibility. The Hon. Member had also
spoken of tIP decisions of that House as tyrannical, but he (Sir
James Gra/8311) would ask what. io a popular iessembly was te
'but the majority :'—( Hear, b s•
decide any question s ear.) ese
stated before, when this subject vras first discussed, that he did
Id 1. inconsistent with his position as AL '
conceive itwoue nuster
o' -Iris7r. to gfee an either in' Ole cffirrit4tive
to this !itieslion. Vert e wriul t
Or tne neca, hat' b
dote. -and he 4i4' Ei44o Lims6
041WsOt "6" •
alit{ issoet ess-'s

Mr. WILLIAMS said that, in consequence of what had
taken place that night, he had altered his intention of asking
the House to agree to his proposition for reducing the army.
—( Hear, bear.) After what had transpired it would be most
injudicious on the part of any Member of that House to pro-
pose a reduction of the vote now before them.—(Hear, hear. )
No person was more anxious than he was to see economy in-
troduced into every one of their public establishments, and
particularly in the army, where be thought it could be prac-
tised to a great extent, and to the great benefit of the country ;
but if he perceived threats in any quarter from which he could
infer danger or hostility to the country, he would be the last
man in that House to stand in the way of the Government if
he thought they had good grounds for keeping up a force
which would be sufficient to maintain the credit and the honour
oi the country.—( Cheers. ) It was his intention to show that
the army estimates were considerably larger this year than
they had been for several preceding years. In 1835 the
vote was for 100,100 men, but it was greater
this year by 48,000 men. With regard to
the more immediate object of his motion that
of a reduction of the Life Guards to one regiment of 400 men,
he begged to say that the statement which had been furnished
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was not, at all in con-
formity with the statement which he (Mr. Williams) made.
The cost of maintaining and clothing each man in the Guards
was 65/. 17s. each, and the cost of horses and accoutrements
was 441. 3s. each per annum. Making the cost of each 1001.
per annum. Now, he was informed that the cost of each man
ewxapsenl3osea/
0,
fbu h
every
erye would take i
kindtothe
country,
at 1001.,
untry,he frudndcathleaul
ttaitting the
e
three
regiments of Horse and Foot Guards amounted altogether to
3.55.e691. Now, the cost of the 43d, 52d, 68th, 85th, and
90th regiments of the line, consisting of 4,515 men, was but
132,5521. 103. The cost of the 20th, 23d, 42(1, 45th,
91st, and 97th, consisting of 8,028 men, was 232,000 e,
making a total cost for those eleven regiments of
355,8481., being just a few pounds more than the cost of the
three regiments of guards. Now, he did not see any reason,
whj this state of things should continue. He thought that one
regiment of horse guards, consisting of 400 men, would be
amply sufficient to discharge all the state attendance which
her Majesty would requite. The regular regiments of the line
had to perform all the hard work which the exigencies of the
country required, both at home and abroad, while an unfair
distinction with regard to pay was made in favour of the
guards, who, he maintained, could live at a less cost in bar-
racks in the Regent's-park, or Hyde-park, than in any other
part of the United Kingdom. There were fifty-eight captains
in those regiments who ranked as lieutenant-colonels in the
regular army. He saw no reason (and he considered it un-
wise) that the captains in the guards should be elevated two
steps in advance of the captains of the regiments of the line.
It created great dissatisfaction and jealousy. And what, he
would ask, was the use of the guards? They performed none
of the services of the country except what was
confined to the metropolis and its neighbourhood.
When the Emperor of Russia was over here the Guards were
always brought out at review, but it was stated that he said he
did not want to see those troops, but the troops who had won
their battles and overcome the difficulties they encountered in
every part of the globe. It was the reliance which Charles the
Tenth of France reposed in his Guards that lost him
his .throne and kingdom, for were it not for the
blind confidence which he reposed in his Guards he would
never have issued those foolish ordinances which led to his de-
thronement. The whole amount of half-pay for the widows
and children of officers was 3.689,000/. '1 his heavy burden
might be greatly curtailed. He was willing to make a proper
recompenco in age or infirmity, but he objected to officers in
perfect health, and unimpaired by age, retiring from the army
on half-pay. They ought to sell their commissions, as they
had made no claim for reward on account of public service.
He would, however, withdraw the motion.
Mr. HUME objected to the large number of Guards, which
were maintained at a great expense, and did not go through
the usual routine of duties, nor were they obliged to face the
hardships which the other departments of the army
were obliged to encounter in foreign countries. Be-
sides, there were more promotions in the Guards
than in any other part of the army. He thought eacry
regiment in its turn should serve in the Metropolis and at the
Palace, then a saving would be made which would enable the
Government to employ 1,000 men more in the service. The
time had come for a saving, and economical principles should
at once be carried into effect. He trusted the Government
would reduce, at as early a period as possible, the increase
which was now proposed to be made to the army. He
came down to the House prepared to resist the further in-
crease of a vote to the army, but, after what had taken place,
he would not do so ; he was as well disposed to economise as
any man, but also as far from subjecting this country to be
trampled upon by any_foreign Power.—(Hear, hear.) He was
anxious for peace, and to save the people of this country, al-
ready heavily taxed, from further burdens, but not at the ex-
pense of national honours and national character.—(Cheers.)
He hoped the manifestation, so unanimous, which had taken
andpla thceoant
peetheaatnight, would have its effect in the proper quarter,
wouldfrohro;ynayuhtatdhegermit be restored and that good
.feeling es-
tablished between the people of two countries which was so
essential to their welfare.—(Hear, and cheers.)
The House then went into Committee.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. S. HERBERT then rose fur the purpose of moving
the army estimates, but previous to doing so congratulated the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down upon the sentiments
which he had given utterance to, The Right Hon. Gentle-
man then went on to combat the statements made by the Hon.
Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams) regarding the expense of
maintaining the Guards, and the salaries to officers. Such
troops were necessary, and the salaries to the officers
were greater than in the other regiments, because
they had greater expenses to sustain. The Honour-
able Gentleman then went through the different de-
creases that were made in the expenses of the army. A de-
duction, amounting to 6,0001., was made in consequence of
the discontinuance of a militia raised by Colonel Read. The
expense for the transfer of clothing through the Ordnance was
less than usual by 1,000/. in consequence of the regulation of
the Committee. In the Volunteer Corps there was a decrease
of 1,000/. The decrease upon the Widows' Pension, the Ge-
neral Pensions, the Half-pay, and the Reduced Half-pay,
amounted to 52,000/. Great benefit would result from that.
The total expense of officers, in 1821, amounted to 17,426/. ;
in the year 1845 they did not exceed 11,000/. He concluded
by voting the sum of 2,630,499/. to the support of the army
this year.
Mr. HUME objected to the custom of paying one corps
more than another which may be stationed in the same place.
In the Guards the allowance given to one regiment was double
that given to the other. There should be an equality of allow-
ance or the worst results would follow. In Hong-Kong the
effects of such a practice proved to be very dangerous. He
hoped they would give every corps the same allowance, and not
attempt to take from one regiment to support the other. A re-
duction in such a case would require great consideration.
Colonel WOOD said that the Hon. Gentleman opposite had
made a speech which would reflect upon the character of a mi-
d
litary man. He thought
ei
hytbe that
daeenpi
nedtnapoweephatoaeenenstrms
ooelewfyi
reflect
snttoetwwanflt
okehtoe:xecayectt
ebwei
araesi
tidlnstemi
a.
enn
battaliongi
tr
oHthlhdnayeeesos
minds.
fthnhi
tni
characterj
stated
hnoiu iseehaNt
vntoloaitt thhuod hlanoaadettf
House-
holdgwstAl
nhvoee coeumei
rrtbetimrohl
es:
neoreao 1
troops
:no Tader emrrieohp Coventry
hvopo
Gentlemanr
esyeennre
ftei
oi
the Household troops unless he made a substantive motion.
Colonel RA WDON referred to the state of mortality that
prevailed in the army which was quite sufficient to call far the
interference of the House. He read a letter from Canton
stating that that portion of the army stationed there and at
Hong-Kong was in the worst state of ill health. He also al-
luded to Demerara, where a regiment lost lately twenty soldiers
during the frost of a few months. For the sake of humanity
the House ought to interfere, the soldiers ought in the present
time, when the world was so peaceable, to be kept in healthy
localities.

Mr. S. HERBERT said that when Hong-Kong was taken
possession of by this country there was nothing to indicate that
the climate was detrimental to the constitution of Europeans.
He was happy to say that lately the mortality in that island
had very materially decreased. Within the last three years
it had been less than in the previous two years.
Capt. B. OSBORNE said that although he could not agree
with the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite ( Col. Wood)
that the abolition of the Household Brigade would tend to re-
volution, yet he oould not support the motion of the Hon.
Member fur Coventry. He would, while he was on his legs,
call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
at War to the state of the regiment called the Blues. In that
regiment the officers were not allowed to exchange, but were
obliged to rise stop by step. He had heard, too, that the funds
of the corps were in a very bad state ; in fact, that the corps
was absolutely in a state of bankruptcy.
Colonel WOOD explained. He did not say the abolition
of the Household Brigade would lead to a revolution. What
he had said was that it would be revolutionary.
Lord ARTHUR LENNOX could assure the Hen. Member
for Coventry that the jealousy which he had described did net
exist amongst the officers of the army. The Hon. Gentleman
was mistaken when he said that the household troops were
never sent abroad. He ( Lord A. Lennox) had himself been
abroad with his regiment for two years together, and if the
corps were to be called out to serve abroad, he had no doubt
that his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex would be
ready to vacate his seat and accomp,anyacheidsirueogitinxtvisahbersaaodf,
and the Hon. Member for Montrose would then have another
opportunity of sustaining a defeat.
Mr. WILLIAMS did pot wish to do away with the house.
hold troops, he only wished to reduce them.
Lord J. AIANNERS trusted that a feeling of economy
would not induce the 6ov.ernment to
the Hon. Merriber for Coventry, and he trusted they ww,1,1
t.kg nJ 4te,p 4.i01 ‘l'oo4 a Sentient,.
46Relloiti chops to the
A I+-- -

4 ~ uegrade the

~. sue country.
d. e W words from Mr. S. HERBERT and Mr. C. HER-

wfishinntOn.P.h
TYLER
'), 1845. "JHN .
. -
Certainly, nothing can, be more friendly than the spirit" in

b..en me fullest
befoi e that tribunal, appointed by
me Mug to investigate this question, and ►he report of that
tribunal hid been before the House, and received its sanction
and approval. But the Hon. Member had stated that his col-

KELEY,
Mr. HUME did not think it was fair to attempt to put his
Hon. Friend down by saying his motion had a revolutionary
tendency. He thought his Hon. Friend was perfectly jus-
tiAed in the cottrae he bad taken, for the Noble Lord opposite