The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-08 00:00:00

SUGAR DUTIES.

Lord STANLEY moved for Returns of the Quantity of
1813 to
imported from the West and East Indies, from the year
leo to 1829, distinguishing the Quantity in each year.__
Ordered.

Air. BARING presented a Petition from the Merchants,
Ship-owners, and others trading to the East Indies: and resi-
dent in London, against the Bill for imposing an additional
Duty on Sugars imported from the East Indies. The Ho-
nourable Member supported the Petition; and stated, that as
the Right Hon. Gentleman had abandoned the essential part
of the measure, he ought not to keep that which was only.vexA-
tious to the mercantile East India connexion, without being
capable of producing any impartant advantage to the revenue.
The Duty, as now proposed, was highly objectionable on two
grounds, one because it went to discriminate between the qua-
lities of the commodity, and the other because it went to dis-
criminate between the countries in which it was raised. He
contended that it could never be carried into effect, as a prac-
tical measure, without causing the greatest uncertainty and em-
barrassment to the persons trading with the East Indies, as
they could never tell exactly to which duty the article would
be rendered liable at the custom-house, on account of the diffi-
culty of ascertaining its origin and relative quality. The diffe-
Tenee between Muscovado sugar and clayed sugar might be
more easily distinguished, but not so between the several qua-
lities of the latter. If the measure was to be persevered in, he
-would oppose it more at length, but at present he would con-
zeta himself with bringing up the Petition.
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said a *.v
words, but in so low a tone of voice as not to be audible in the
Gallery. He seemed to argue that the duty was necessary for
the protection of the West Indian Interests, and that the vexation
and embarrassment stated to result from it would not follow, as
the duties could be readily ascertained by the relative fineness
of the commodity.
Mr. BARING, in explanation, re-stated his former objec-
tions—The Petition was ordered to be printed.
General GASCOIGNE presented a similar Petition from
the Merchants and Traders of Liverpool, which, after a frnv
words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Bernal,
was ordered to be printed.
IRISH AGRICULTURE.

Sir J. NEWPORT presented a Petition from the Chamber
of Commerce of Viraterford„ against the present mode of strik-
ing the averages of Corn.
HARE presented a Petition from the Agriculturists of
the County of Cork, praying for protection to the Agriculture
of Ireland.

Mr. C. HUTCHINSON argued in favour of the Petition.
He objected to the present mode of taking the averages, as in-
jurious to the trade with Ireland. He said, that the Corn
Trade of Ireland ought to be protected, instead of that with
the Continent ; Ireland was not a manufacturing country, and
-therefore it was of the last and most vital importance that her
Agriculture should have the benefit of some well regulated
protection. He maintained, that to allow the Beard.of Excise
to compel the Irish Distiller to alter the strength of his spirit
before the introduction of it into this country, was a viola=
of the 6th clause of the Act of Union. On the same principle
la similar charge might be made in every other article of Ilia;
manufacture. It was too late now for the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to say that it was too strong for British constitu-
tiens. Great Britain ought either to take Irish spirits, or give
Ireland back her Legislature.
Mr. D. BROWNE concurred in the observations of his
llonourable Friend the Member for Cork.

Mr. W. SMITH said, that the case was now before a legal
tribunal; but that, in his opinion, the Honourable Gentlemen
were decidedly in error.
The Petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. HARE also presented a Petition from the Coroners of
.the County of Cork, praying for the repeal of the Act of lest
Saviion, for the regulation of the Office of Coroner in Ireland.
After a few words from Mr. D. Browne and Mr. Hutchin-
son, the Petition was ordered to lie on the Table.

The Marquess of TAVISTOCK presented a Petition from
, in the County of Bedford, praying for the amelioration
of the Criminal Law.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. H. CLIVE' presented a Return of the Number of Per-
sons prosecuted, in Ireland, for Sedition and Blasphemy, since
1810.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir R. WILSON presented a Petition from a number of
Persons engaged in the Manufacture of Leather, complaining
of the great injury which they sustained from the introduction
of machinery, and praying for redress.
-On the motion, that the Petition be brought up--
Mr. W. SMITH, while he expressed the pain with which he
Aways opposed any thing that had even the semblance of re-,

rie:ing-thellist,-I.Cif the-lower orders, declared that he could
never hear sueh doctr:neS aS those contained in the present Peti-
tion, wltheut bearing his testimony to their total absurdity. If,
such principles were OrlC2 to be acted upon, the Legislature
must not stop until they reduced man to toe unassisted state in
which he came into the world. The loom must be abolished,
for that was a complicated piece of inlkchintry. The plouo
must be abolished, for that. vas a-piece of macoinery which in
one day performed the labour of above 40 men. The very ham-
mer which made the Table of the House, was a piece. of
machinery. The nails which fastened its parts- together. were
the produce of machinery. Eut vain would be any attempt to
drive machinery out of the world, even were the Legislature of
this country and of every country under heaven .unanimons in
making the attempt. . The principles on which it was, and
always would be maintainzd, were founded on the most obvious
and irresistible truths.

Aft,2r a fz.w words from Sir R. WILSON, the Petition was
breught up, -.Tad, and ardered to be printed.
Colonel DAVIES gave notice that on the 22d instant, he
:vould move ftr the appointment .of a Committee to examine
into the adulteration of Clover and Trefoil.
JOHN BULL. •

Mr RENNET gave notice that ile would to-morrow call
we attention of the House to a Libel in the Sunday. Newspaper
called .10IIN

Mr. (:OURTENAY gave notice that on the 22d instant,
he would submit to, the-House a Motion respecting the Claims
of the,Aincrimn Loyalists.

STEAM ENGINES BILL.

Mr. M. A: TAYLOR moved: the order of the day for the
House going into a Committee upon the Steam Engines Bill.
Mr. LITTLETON,- after remarking upon the inconveni-
ence which the operation of the Bill would create to large iron
founderies and ether establishments of an extensive nature, in
compelling them to employ the •r aired apparatus.at so short
a notice, suggested the propriety of postponing it to another.
year. 'lf the-Hon. Member refused to accede to his proposal,
lle gave notice that he should move a clause in the Committee
for exempting such manufactories as those to which he had al-
luded from the operation of the Bill.
Mr. J. SMITH was surprised at the objections which had
been made by his Hon: Friend, if he would allow him to call
him so, when he heard that they were confined to the operation
of the Bikl upon the rich classes alone. At. the same time he
'seemed to forget the injury which the poorer classes suffered
from the existence of the steam engines in their present state.
He could name a class-of poor persons in London who so suf-
fered; he meant the humble class who got their livelihood by
washing. If a steam engine was at present established in the
neighbourhood of the residence of one of these poor people,
their occupation was destroyed altogether.
Mr. CALVERT supported the Bill. He himself had a steam
engine, and the smoke consumer had been applied to, it with
the greatest good effect Ile could himself, by just turning it,
destroy a large volume of smoke in one-minute. A printed
paper had been put into his hands at the door, which, as it was
calculated to mislead; he felt bound to notice. The paper
stated that the apparatus employed at the steam engines of
Messrs. Barclay and Co., had entirely failed. silt was true that
at one time the apparatus did net act with effect; but he had
seen a letterfrom Mr. Perkins, stating that they had discovered
that the cause of failure originated in the • misconduct of a ser-
vant, who, actuated by malicious, or some other motives un-
known, had purposely counteracted the intended effect.
Mr. D. GILBERT thought 'nothing more likely to prove
fallacious than the opinions founded upon experiinents of this
nature. It 'must be known to the House that numbers of fa--
unfits were Supportedin several-parts of the country upon esta-
blishments 'conducted' by steam engines ; and he thought the
House should pause before they passed a Bill, which, by en-
couraging vexatious proceedings, would have a tendency to
weaken those establishments. If, however, the Hon. Mover
would introduce a clause for exempting the mining and large
manufacturing districts from the operation of the Bill, he
should not oppose the motion fbr the House now going into a
Committee.'

Mr. F. BUXTON- opposed the Bill. - He declared that, in
his own cage, he fotind it impossible to carry the proposed
enactment into effect. The Hon. Member said, he thought, at
all events, time should be given for considering the subject
more fully and,- with that vied', he moved, as an amendment,
that the house should go into a- Committee that day six months.
Colonel WOOD said, he had received several communica-
tions from the countyle had the honour to represent, stating,
that the Bill could not be carried ,into effect without occasion-
in a very serious expence to individuals. He trusted the Hon.
ver would consent to postpohe the measure.
Mr. MABERLY trusted the Hon. _Mover would postpone
the considefation of the Bill, as; in its present shape, it-went to
compel the-trying of-experiments. The courts of law would
have to try the merit of every-experiment suggested by every
projector. -He thought the Hon. Mover was bound to shew
that the Bill could be carried into effect.

Mr. C URWEN supported the Bill.—He was convinced, from
the experiments he had made, that the proposed alteration
would cause an ultimate saving.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR in reply said, he was content to leave
the whole question to the House, satisfied, as he was, that if the
present law upon the subject were distinctly understood, the
Bill would be supported. He -did not introduce any new law,
but merely-promoted the operation of the old. As the law now
stood, every proprietor of a steam engine could be prosecuted
if the working of it tended to injure the health, the property,
or the convenience of any individual. The Bill enabled the
Courts, in - cases where a jury had decided the question of
nuisance, but in no other case, to order the defendant to make
a compensation to the prosecutor. With respect to any pro-
posed exemption, he saw no reason for confining the Bill to the
Metropolis-and to great towns. The evil was general, and the
remedy should be correspondent with it. The different letters
he had received on the subject, would take three hours in the
reading, but as the House must be perfectly aware of the evil,
he should not trespass on their patience by reading any of these
letters. He had only to observe, that when he had first intro-
duced the Bill, lie met with general support ; but now as it was
found particular interests were likely to be affected, he was en-
countered by every kind of opposition.
General GASCOYNE, in opposition to the Bill, read a let-
ter from tire proprietors of a large establishment at Liverpool,
stating that tne new plan increased not only the smoke, but the
quantity of requisite fuel. _
Mr. PHILLIPS said, that as such difference of opinion ex-
isted on the subject, a delay would be advisable, especially as ,
it did not appear that any material inconvenience would arise
from it. it was generally thought that some new principle had
been discovered, but this was not the case. Mr. 'Watt obtained
a patent in the year 1785, for the consumption of smoke, and
even his plan had been in practice before. If, however, the
Bill shouldpass, he saw no reason for making its application
merely local.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY here suggested a post-
' ponernent of the debate, as it was necessary the House should
go into a Committee-of Supply.
Mr. 111. A. TAYLOR was disposed to acquiesce in the sug-
gestion ; but the sense of the House appeared to be in favour of
proceeding with the discussion.
Mr. BUXTON declared he should divide the House, as
there appeared a wish to make this Bill press chiefly upon the
metropolis.
After a few words from Mr. CALVERT and Mr. BUXTON,
Mr. MARYATT- spoke in favour of the Bill. He referred
to a large manufactory at Whitechapel, in which the proposed
alteration had been adopted with success.
Mr. Alderman WOOD rose amid general cries of " Ques-
tion !" He trusted the Hon. Mover would consent to except
mining districts from the operation of the Bill. He admitted
that he had seen a manufactory, in which the new plan had been
adopted with effect.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House di-
vided, when there appeared— -
For the original motion _- - - - - 83

For Mr. Icturton's amendment - - -
Majority - - - - -

_54

The House then went into a-Committee, pro forma, and im-
mediately resumed. -The Report was ordered to be received
'to-morrow, and the discussion upon the third reading was fixed
for Thursday.
- SUPPLY.—RUSSIAN ARMY.

The Marquess Of LONDONDERRY, in rising to
move the Order of the Day, that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
expressed a hope that he might be permitted to
advert for a few moments to a question which had
been under discussion on a former evening.—
When Hon. Members had on a former evening
introduced the subject of the operations of the
Russian army, he was only able to give an argu-
mentative answer. He then stated that those
troops having been put in motion °nig for a spe-
cific purpose, that purpose havinebeen achieved,
it was to be presumed that their operations
would be changed; Though he was not able. to
say that the march of the Russian army would be
suspended, he felt himself entitled to state, that
the circumstances in Piedmont which induced a
call for support from Austria being at an end, a
change must necessarily take place in the move-
ments of the Russian troops. He now felt him-
self in a situation to inform the House, that the

Russian army was not to pass its own frontier.—
(Hear,- hear, hear!)—He felt " himself bound
to make this statement, both in justice to the
House and to the Illustrious personages whose
characters had been so improperly, so illiberally,
and so unjustly treated bY 'some...Hon. Gentlemen
on the other side. if Hon. AlNnbers would*take
upon themselves to get up andsatcuse
trious Personages with an intention of overturn-
ing the liberties of Europe, he should feel him-
self bound most solemnly-to pfotest against such
unfounded accusations. He must protest also
against the charge'made against those Illustrious
Personages. of wishing to aggrandize themselves
at the expence of the other European Powers.—
(Hear, hear !)—On the contrary, he had before
stated, and-he now repeated that statement,' that
nothing had come-to his knowledge which could
lead him to believe that' those Powers were
actuated by any sinister view of aggrandise-
' meat, or of increase of power, in their interference
with Naples. He said, down to the last moment
of those accusations, that no such intention
existed, and from what he had since known,
so far from being altered he was confirmed
in that opinion. -He was now prepared to
state the real causes which caused the Russian
army to be: put in motion. -The situation of
the King of Sardinia was such,, that having
great portion of his own army disbanded, he°felt
it necessary to call upon Austria to quell the dis-
turbances which had arisen in his kingdom. To
this demand the Emperorof Austria replied, that
however anxious he might be to afford assistance
in support of their common interest, yet he did
not wish to expose himself to the imputation
which might be cast upon him by Foreign Powers,
of a wish to extend his power'and dominion in
Italy. But in order to avoid this, he (the Em-
peror of Austria) would -apply to his' Ally, the
Emperor of Russia, and would endeavour to pre-
vail upon him, to allow a portion of his army-of
100,000 men, who were then in motion, to ad-
vance towards Piedmont. He .accordingly pro-
posed that from twenty-five thousand to thirty
thousand Russians might be put hi motion for
this purpose. The Emperor of Russia said that
lie also was particularly anxious to guard him-
self against an imputation. to which he would lay
himself open by such - a movement; and he
begged it_ to be particularly understood that, in
any interference on his part, he disclaimed any
intention of aggrandizement or additional influ-
ence in the countries into which his armies were
to march.—(Hear, hear I)—From the moment,
however, that the Russian troops had been put in
motion, it was broadly asserted that their object
was to proceed to Spain. That charge he had
before rebutted by inference—he now gave it a
more decided contradiction. It was made, as
many other charges were; in a visionary manner,
and without any foundation whatever. He
trusted that this explanation would be satisfactory
to the House and the country.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—The Noble Marquess concluded by
moving the Order of the Day, that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Lord MILTON observed, that both the House
and the Country must feel much satisfaction at
hearing the explanation of the Noble Marquess.
But though he agreed with the-Noble Lord that
it was unfair to assume facts, and then argue
upon them as proved, yet he felt himself bound
to support the right of that House to canvass the
conduct of any Continental Power. 'There were
two modes of aggrandising Sovereigns ; one was
at the expence of other nations—the other, at
the expence of the people. This was a line of
conduct much to be dreaded. He did not know
that it was not as serious a charge against Charles
11. that he attempted to introduce foreign
troops to put down the spirit of the people of
this country as that made against Louis XIV.,
for having received money for endeavouring to
put down the spirit of the people of England.
After what we had seen of the conduct of Prus-
sia, where promises of a Constitution were hourly
made and broken, it was rather too much to be
told that we ought not to look with great jealousy
to the conduct of foreign powers. -
Mr. WARRE implored' the House not to for-
get that the present conduct of Russsia could be
viewed in no other light than as an abstaining
from crime. It was well observed, that, fortu-
nately for the liberties of mankind, there was yet
one corner of Europe in which even the conduct
of Sovereigns could be discussed and censured.
The hopes and liberties of Europe must sink to
despair, :were it not for- the efforts of that one
corner, which was England. •

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY explained.
He could not make hiniself answerable for the
conduct of any individual, but he had no doubt
the Emperor of Russia understood his true glory
too well to meditate any aggrandisement on the
side of Turkey.

Mr. DENMAN said, after the experience they
had had of the usurpation of Finland by Russia,
the transfer of Norway and Genoa, the seizure
of Venice, and the recent invasion of Naples, the
suspicion of his Hon. Friends, that the Emperor
of Russia had meditated an attack upon Spain,
was not unwarranted by the rules of reasoning.
After a few words from the Marquess of Los-
DONDERRY and Mr. _DENATAN, the conversation
dropped.