The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-15 00:00:00

POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

On the Order of the Day being read for going into
Committee on this Bill,

Mr. HAWES complained that the House had ap-
pointed to meet that day for the purpose of going into
Committee on the Railways Bill, and Hon. Members had
come down prepared to discuss it.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) invited them
to the consideration of the poor-law. He pro-
tested against this way of doing business, and though
it was far from his wish to throw any obstruction in the
course of the Government, he gave notice that on a
future occasion, should a like proceeding be attempted,
he would take the sense of the House upon it.—(Hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY wished to call the attention of the
House to the 11th clause of the Poor-law Bill, which
provided for the management and control of parish ap-
prentices. He had, to his great astonishment, found out
that these pauper apprentices were often bound for a
period of twelve years, and that, during that period, they
were never visited by the parish authorities at all. In
his opinion, they might to be regularly visited and exa-
mined, and this apart from their masters and mistresses.
He thought the Government ought to confer some new
powers on the Commissioners with respect to this
subject.
6ir J. GRAHAM said he was most anxious to secure
sufficient powers to the Commissioners for the guardian-
s i of the apprentices. It'would be seen, by the present
11,11, that the Commissioners were invested with con-
m-ierabie powers ; they were authorised to prescribe the
terms and provisions of the indentures, and to take care
that they should be properly executed.
The House than went into Committee, Mr. GREENE
in the chair.

On clause 35 being put,
Col. WOOD complained of the deficiency of school.
rooms in different poor-law unions. Parishes had been
called on to expend a large sum in schools, and now
unions were to be called on to erect district schools.
The poor would not permit their children to be removed
from them, and the schools would be entirely left to
orphans and deserted children. He objected to concen-
tration of children in district schools, notwithstanding
the instance of the good management of, the Norwood
school. He preferred schools where the children were
kept in connection with their parents. He begged the
Right Hon. Gentleman to postpone this proposition to
another year.

Mr. COWPER hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not consent to postpone this question.—(Hear,
hear.) He conceived that it was impossible to have good
schools unless they had large ones. The success of the
experiment at Norwood had ramoved all doubt as to the
proper course to be pursued. The only defect in the
clause arose from the want of provision for adequate
inspection, and he hoped that that defect would be reme-
died. He believed the Gallant Colonel could not find
a single good workhouse school in the country ; at least
for one good workhouse school, he engaged to mention
100 which were conducted on a different system. The
strongest proof of the inefficiency of workhouse schools
was to be found in the prisons of London. The inspec-
tors declared that the girls in prison who had belonged
to these schools, were the most violent and immoral
persons whom they had met with. The only objection
he had to the 35th clause was the limitation to fifteen
miles.

Colonel Wood, .Mr. Waltley, and a host of others rose
at once and amidst great laughter, but gave way to
Sir J. GRAHAM, who made a few observations.
'Colonel WOOD said, that if the Hon. Member would
come to the workhouse, of which he (Colonel Wood)
was one of the guardians, he would find that they had
there a schoolmaster with a salary of 201. a-year.—
(Ironical cheers.) They had also a master shoemaker
to teach his trade at a salary of Iss. a-week.—(A laugh.)
He thanked his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) for
his suggestion, and he would more that clause 35 be
omitted.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that he had before op-
posed the institution of district schools, in which the chil-
dren would be removed to a great distance from their friends
and relatives. But under clause 35 of this Bill no district
would be of more than fifteen miles' diameter, and that
ould not include a large population, except in London,
Manchester, Birmingham, and Liverpool. The districts
would be so narrowed, that on Sundays and holidays
the parents and relations could go to see the children.
On that point they had had reports of Committees from
a very early period, and all those reports earnestly re-
commended the adoption of schools of this character. In
many cases, at present, the schoolmasters were paupers.
He proposed to give to each schoolmaster a salary of 201.
a year. The school at Norwood, which had been re-
ferred to by the Honourable Member for Hertford,
was a perfect model-1,100 children were educated there
at a small expense, and had the best education. There
were 8,000 pauper children now in the workhouses of the
metropolis requiring education. By establishing four or
five institutions similar to the one at Norwood, within a
few miles of the metropolis, the best education, physical,
moral, and religious, would be provided for these children.
He was certainly anxious that these clauses should pass.
They would go far to secure to the most destitute
pauper in the country an excellent education. There
was nothing in the clauses against the principles of to-
leration and free self government ; they had been care-
fully prepared in a most cautious spirit, and he hoped
they would not be postponed.
Mr. WAKLEY was glad to hear the Right Hon.
Gentleman express his determination .o adhere to the
clauses. Ile subject of the education of the pi or had
always been postponed in that House to other subjects,
and, in consequence, they now had the most ignorant
population on the face of the earth. They were a right
feeling and a right thinking people, but they had not
the materials for thought. If the people had been pro-
perly educated would they have had the incendiarism
which they now had in Norfolk and Suffolk ? The moral,
physical, and intellectual education of the masses had
been neglected. The religious question had been
made the great bone of contention, and the poor
children had been neglected. He could bear testimony
to the healthy appearance of the pauper children in the
Gallant Colonel's union, and he believed the Gallant
Colonel exercised his functions more like a parent than
a guardian.—(Hear, hear.) They ought not to judge
meanly of education, because they occasionally found a,
learned man—a man educated at the university—
the most stupid animal in existence.—(Hear, hear.)
It was most ridiculous to see to whom the words
Honourable and Learned Gentlemen were applied.—
(Laughter.) He thought they did a great deal of
harm by calling a very stupid person the Learned Gen-
tleman.—(Laughter.) The education which he wished
to see adopted was such as would make the children re-
spectable members of society. He denied that that could
be done in the workhouse schools. He was opposed to
the system of centralisation, but if it was the opinion of
that House that the Commissioners should be retained,
he thought they should be made asuseful as possible, and
in no particular could they be made more beneficial than
in superintending the system of education under which
the children in the poor-houses were to receive instruc-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would not relax any of the clauses.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said there could be no great ob-
jection to this power being conferred. He could not
conceive a greater boon that could be conferred upon
these poor children, than that of giving
them facilities
for obtaining the benefits of education.
Mr. WODE HOUSE said that the crime of incen
diarism was as common in other counties as in Norfolk.
It would be well if the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Finsbury would inquire into those acts of incendiarism,
for no one was more capable of investigating the subject.
Mr. BUCK was understood to support the clause.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the principle could be
applicable only to the metropolis and to large cities, not
to rural districts. He had endeavoured to word the
clause so as to carry out this object, and this object
alone. If, however, it was thought the words were not
sufficiently stringent or precise, he would very willingly
make any alteration that might be desirable, in order to
leave no doubt whatever upon the intentions pf Par-
s liameut.