The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-05 00:00:00

Li A.M E NT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 4.
Mr. Smith-, from the Commissioners of Rich-
mond Bridge, presented the Cash Account of
that establishment for the year 1820.—Mr.Sturt,
from the Custom House, presented an Account of
the English and Irish Goods exported into Rus-
sia, during the last year.---Mr. Wal ford, from the
Treasury-, presented an Account of the National
Debt from the year 1786, down to the present
period,_

The Earl of DONOTIGiiMOitt presented a Peti-
tion from the Irish Att&flies' against the Irish
Courts' Bill. After aft vr observations from the
Earls of Donoughtnore and Limerick, it was
ordered to be laid on the table.

On the motion of the 'Eatl of LTMERICK, tit
Irish Lunatic-Asyluth Bill was.read the secon,
time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.

Lord SIDMOUTH 'presented. a -List Of v Papers
relative to the. Trade between the East Indies
and China, pursuant to an Order of the House.

BANK CASH PAYMENTBILL.
The Earl of LivEnPoOL, on rising to move the
third reading of the Bank Cash Payment Bill,
observed that he should. confine himself, for the
present, to a statement of the principle and
ject which it embraced. .It would make no other
alteration in the system which Parliament had
adopted two years., ego, than that of precipitat-
ing its operation, or rather of removing the im7
pediment
.which must.otherwise exist, until the
expiration of the term specified in the Act.- Their
Lordships knew that there were three diffe-
rent periods with respect4o payinents in specie;
the first.was. that of the total prohibition which-it
was deemed expedient to adopt, under the cir-
cumstances of the war; the second was that of
the prospective removal of the restriction ; and
the third, its removal altogether. According to
the Act which was passed two years ago, the
Bank could not pay in coin, however anxious
it might be to do so, before May J 822, and the
object of the present Bill was to pay as early as
1821, if they should be in a condition to do so.
He had the satisfaction of stating to their Lord-
ships, that if the Bill should pass, it was the in-
tention of the Bank to take immediate steps for
the resumption of Cash. Payments, by paying off
all the one pound notes. His Lordship concluded
by observing, that great public inconvenience
would arise, if Parliament should refuse to give
the Bank at least the permissive power authorised
by the present Bill.
The Marquess of. LANSDOWN said he did not
rise for the purpose of offering any opposition or
obstruction to the passing of the measure, but the.
principle upon which it was founded was of top
much importance to let the third reading pass
without some observation. He did not object to
the Bill, because the payment of the one pound
notes in sovereigns was a measure likely to be
attended with great advantage. Another reason
why he did not object to it was, that it left the
other important question still open, he meant
the question whether a metallic was preferable to
a paper currency ? He was one of those, himself,
who held the opinion, that provided the circula-
tion of the country was kept under due restric-
tion, and founded on a metallic basis, the less
precious -metal there was in the coffers of the
Bank, the better for the public. But their at-
tention should also be directed to the general
principles on which the question rested, and
which was adopted, as the Noble Earl stated,
two years ago. No one could be surprised at the
facility by which the Bank was enabled to pay
now, as it might, in fact, have done the same
eight or nine months ago. As to the question,
whether the business of the country could be
better carried on by a metallic or a paper cur-
rency, founded on a metallic standard, the pre-
sent Bill did not profess to determine. The
subject was therefore still free to the consider-
ation of Parliament, and he would state why he
thought it material that Parliament should re-
serve its opinion.- Undoubtedly, if it was pos-
sible by a recurrence to metallic issues to put an
end to the crimes and executions connected with
the paper system, that consideration alone would
be sufficient to anticipate their Lordships' judg-
ment ; but the more he examined that topic, the
more he was disposed to doubt whether a metallic.
currency was not likely to,be counterfeited to as
large an extent by coiners, as a paper currency
was by those who forged. Ile found,on a reference
to certain papers before the House, that the num-
ber of convictions for coining within a limited peL
riod amounted to 3,191, while :the number of
convictions for forgery, within an equal pe-
riod, amounted to 1,581. The inference
from this seemed to be, at, least, that no material
diminution could be expected to take place under
a change of system, and especially as the tempta-
tion to coin gold was considerably increased by
the facilities lately afforded to the importation of
platina froth the Continent. I f there was not a
material advantage to be-derived from a metallic
circulation, a paper one was certainly the most
convenient and economical machine for carrying
on the business of the. nation.- It had been re-
commended two years ago that the Bank should
be obliged to purchase bullion below the. Mint
price ; if they were not obliged to do so, and
also to pay their notes in specie, the country
would be left at the mercy of the If,
therefore, Parliament felt a preference for metal-
lic above paper currency, he hoped. they would
accompany it with the first of these previsions.
He was far from retracting the opinion which he
bad formerly given on the subject, for he still re.,.
garded the return to cash payinen ts as ii MeaSure for
which the Gdvernmen twos entitled to the thanks of
the country. But he would repeat what he had al- . •

ready stated on a former occasion, that it never
entered into his contemplation at the time the
system was recommended. that an attempt should
be made at the same time to increase the burthens
of the people by additional taxation.- if it had
been absolutely necessary, as a step towards the
resumption of Cash Payments, that such a mea-
sure should be resorted to, it would have mate-
rially altered his view of the recommendation
then n made to ' Parliament. That addition had
however been made, and made at a time when
reduction was most necessary,. The Noble Earl
might ask, whether they would abandon the
principle .Of a Sinking Fund,- but they had aban-
cloned
a Sinking Fund already, and it was .for
the shadow of a Sinking Fund that the country
was put to the additional expence of three tail-
, lions. 'The object of a Sinking. Fund was the
diminution Of the public debt ;. and he could not
help thinking that_ that object would be better
.answered by ielitivitig the people
,Jrom taxa-
tion,• and allowing .the country to recover its*
prosperity. He felt in the year 1819, and in the
present moment, that there were but three courses
to be pursued, in order to prepare,the way for
the resumption of Cash Payments. The first was
to diMinish the interest paid:to the public credi,
tor, but that implied a breach of faith,,which he
could not contemplate under any circumstances
without horror. There was another way. more
equitable in its " nature, though :perhaps equally
dangerous as a precedent, that was to alter the
denoMination of the coin and standard ; and the
.third was to diminish the . expenditure of the
country, so as to enable it to bear ,the inconve-
nience to which so great a change would expose
it: This last was the expedient which he thought
Parliament ought to adopt ; and it was the only
one from which he could entertain a hope, that
the-present difficulties might be surmounted, and
the foundation of future prosperity laid with any_ -
prospect of being realized.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, he did not rise
to oppose the Bill, especially as it did not com-
pel the Bank to pay, but .he was not as clear as
his Noble Friend seemed to be, that a paper
currency was more economical than a currency
in coin. He knew the way. in which that propo-
sition was stated. It was said that if 30 millions
was taken out of the capital of the Country, for
the purchase of gold, the trade of the Country
must suffer to that extent. But gold could not
be so purchased ; it was to be obtained, like any
other commodity, by sending our own manufac.
tures in exchange ; and if that was the case, the
Country must be benefited instead of injured.
Upon the whole, it was a matter of great doubt
with him, whether a paper currency was not as
expensive as a metallic one. The question of the
diminution of crime was certainly a most important
p,:rt of .the consideration, but it did not appear
from the statement of his Noble Friend any mi.-
guitte expectations could be indulged; besides,
the Mint Regulations themselves were calculated

to encourage coiners, and, held out a bonus of 1-1
per cent. to those who might imitate the coin,even
supposing them to make use of silver as valuable.
and to pass it through the same operation as in
the Mint. His Noble Fllend had recommended
a reduction of the
.public establishments, and
he agreed in its propriety, as far as it could be
done consistently with the safety of the State
but he deprecated the idea of holding out an ex-
pectation that the distresses of the Country could
be relieved by the paltry savings of which they
had heard so much of late. As to altering the de-
nomination of the coin, it was a step. which
nothing but the mast urgent necessity could jus-
tify ; perhaps, however, they might still go so
far as to change the standard to silver, a measure
which would contribute greatly to te relief of
the existing distress. With respect to the esta-
blishment of a sinking fund, he knew nothing that
could be more injurious, even if the country was
much more rich than she could be supposed at
present. His Noble Friend had talked of the
shadow of a Sinking Fund, but there was yet';
enough of substance in it to relieve the burthen '
of taxation„to improve the condition of the lower
orders, and increase the, produce of the other"
taxes if properly applied. But even if he were
an advocate for the establishment of a Sinkirg-
Fund, the hour of difficulty was not that which
shoUld be selected for accumulation. With re-
spect to the Bill itself, he rejoiced in its introduc-
tion, as it would afford an opportunity of ascer-
taining, by actual experiment, how farthe resump-
tion of Cash Payments was practicable, in the
present circumstances of the nation.

Lord KING expr ss d his satisfaction• at the
Bill, to the object of which he wished every suc-
cess. The greatest • difficulty they had to en-
counter was that of taxation ; and the best means
of providing against that was by the adoption of
economy in all
.departments of the Government.
The. Noble Lord had said it was impossible to
reduce the establishmentsany further, consistently
with the security of the State ; but he had 'no
doubt that if a much smaller sum were voted for
the service of the country, that service would be
as well performed in, all its branches as if it con-
tinued to be paid at the present rate. There
were two difficulties attending the resumption of
Cash Payments. One was the difficulty of pay-,
ing the same areount.,of taxation under the in-
creased value of ul.oney, and the other was
the adoption, of a true standard. The. Tegu-
•lation..oi the. Bank to give 175,. 1042-d.
an' ounce for gold , was
.the. cause why the
price of gold was stilt kept up to that :amount..
I ithe Bank did not. give the price of gold.
must have fallen, abd 'thfTefore it ,was.necessary
that this rhea Sure shuld be carried into,
effect as soon as pos"sible. The was evi-
dently too eager to purchase :gold, and had di-

• ;
minished its issues beyOnd what.it Onglitio have
done. It was to be wished that the present. mea-
.sune -might be followed:tip by others "for. fhe pur-
pose of giving it a more certain and • beneficial
operation. This was the only country in Eu-
rope in which the expenCe 'Of. Coinage Was not
taken out.of the coin itself.. Such a reghlation
.would, he thooght, be the hest; and the prospect
.of our intercourse. with South America being like-
ly to render the price of gold cheaper in this
country than on the continent, and even to make
this country the Carrier to the other ports of Eu-'
rope,.it was the more necessary that she should
adopt such measures as were least likelltO raise
the price of that. commodity, and dimizish the
valne of our situation. •
The Earl of Ltv-Enpbbr, admitted that the
question between the advantages of a. metallic
and paper currency was hot involved it‘ the
present question. At :the same time he. felt it
due in candour. to the House •to state. .that if
they considered a • paper currency more desira—
ble, the passing of the present Bill would create
impediments to its adoption. Though. his own
mind:was not yet made up on the subject, he
would confess that his inclination was rather in
favour-of a metallic than a paper currency. He
would admit that there was some weight in the
consideration of economy as sugzested by the
Noble Marquess, but the paper currency must
be taken with all its attendant evils, and the dis-
position to over-trading and speculating in Criti-
cal times, which it was of so much importanCe to
controul, was much more favoured by the paper
currency. The question, however, was open to
future determination. With respect to the-three
millions raised for the establishment of a Sinking
Fund, it could not be said to have added to the
distress, for since the conclusion of the war not
less than sixteen millions had been taken off.
Besides the agricultural distress was not confined
to .this.country, it was felt as severely in all the
countries of Europe;, and in the United States
of America, where the taxation was loci, :and
where all the taxes upon agriculture were abo-
lished since the peace, it was felt more severely.
He was one of those who had always thought
that they should have a Sinking Fund, and that
the best way of proceeding was to-do what was
„a d
necessary at once, and then leave the country to
itself. No country could be consideredi on. a
li
solid footing without a Sinking
season, a starving market, or the nature of events
abroad, might require the assistance of such a
fund, and therefore he thought Government was
bound-to do what was incumbent on every private
individual, to provide a surplus income beyond
the amount of its expenditure. In that view it
appeared to him that a Sinking Fund of 5,000,000
was necessary to this country. He agreed with the
Noble Marquess, that it would be impolitic and
disgraceful to break fhith with the public credi,
tor ; but if the country could not pay, he .would
-prefer the direct and" candid course of making
the avowal at once, and reducing the interest,. to
any expedient for effecting the same object by
less apparent. means; A-reduction of the public
establishments had been much insisted on, and
he would admit that it ought to take place, as
far as was practicable; but what was it 'that
made the present establishment so great, ass.6m-
pared with other peace establishmentS ? It was
the enofmous amount of the half pay, and the
increase -in the full pay of soldiers and sailors,
which was adopted during the war, whether pru-
dently or not he did not mean to iscuss. As to
the numerical amount of the force, it had been
often discussed before, and there was are anxiety
on the part of his Majesty's Government to re-
duce it as much as possible. He would ()Walt;
any alteration in the system of our coin, whiCh
could tend to its depreciation.
The Earl of DARNLEY gave notice, that he
should feel it his duty to call the. attention of the
House to the present state of the public establish-
ments, before the Session closed, and maintained
that a great reduction might be made in the
Ordnance Department,- and even in that of.the
Navy.

The Marquess of LANSDOWN and, the Earls of
LIVERPOOL and LAUDERDALE explained.
The Duke or WELLINGTON said, that if the
Ordnance were to be reduced altogether, the
saving would not amount to one-third of the, pre-
sent estimates.

The Bill was then read the third time and.
passed, and the House adjourned till Monday.
•

HOUSE OF COM.iiONS, FRIDAY,,MAY 4.

Mr. CURWEN presented two Petitions from Wigforfand
=Other town in Cumberland, praying for a, revision of the
Criminal Code..—Ordcred to'bc printed.
Botoagh ;of
. •
Mr. S. BOURNE moved a new writ for 412:
Ando :er, in the room of T: Ashtton Sthith,-Esq. ; .

• ' HORN BLOWERS,.
A Petition 'was present&t.ran the vestry of the parish of St.
George, Hanover-square,:coniplitining of • th 6 nuisance caused
by • persons hawking nrtieles about the streets, and blowing
horns:--Laid on-the
'•• • -.'CRIMINAL LAWS.
Pe:_itions.were presented from: Tewkesbury; Sherboine, arid
Bridport, by Mr. Morton Pitt from two towns ih ,
by Sir• Wm. Lenion.; froih 'Bristol; by Mr. Hart Davis ; Sr/tin
Darlington; by'Mr: Paulett ; from Pickering, by Mr. Ellis ;
from the city of,Dublin,•-by Mr. Shaw; and from the•Boitingh
of Kidderminster, by Mr. Abercrombv, paaying fnr :a:revision
of the Criminal Laws.—They were all laid on
.the tabie.and
ordered to be printed. ' •' • • • • • '• •
Mr. ELLIS prc.v.nted a Petition from the Waterinen of
`London against toe Thames Wharfs Bill, and,pr.ayink-Ici•,:be
heard, by Counsel.-:-Referred to the Committee on said
Bill . .

•
Mr. ELLrs also presented a Petition from the Chainber.of
Comtherce ir. New afiainst the Scotch Achnir4lty.eoart
••
.All.—Ordered to be printea. • .
!., . ,
COMPLAINT. AGAINST A MEMBER.
Mr. I'. MOORE presented a petition from a person:Of tai
.naive of Thomas!!Flarligan; comprainir.g of some espresi.2r,s
~wl:if:11 were -made irk: b3i- nicnihr of 'that lionSe y.-ith
ri -
s; to him, and which asA...rted.untruly that he • had litery for-
merly Sentenced to transportation.
The SPEAKER said that stteh a Pet'iitin as this went to in-
fringe‘the independence and privileges of the members of that
house.

After a few -words from fir. Mtzkenzie, Mr. E. G. Ben

et, wt,: Mr. Cooper, the Hon. Member witharcw-the petition,
'tut intimat:d that he would take another oppo:tunity of sub-
.mitting a :motion on the. subject.
R2ISREPRE .-3ENTATION. _ _

Mr. MACKENZI E comphined of the report which had
hem published of a speech of Mr. G. Bennet on the army esti-
niatt., which coLtained expressions highly offensive to the feel-
a person lidding a high office in Scotland. He men-
tio.aed the-Subject now for the purptue of giving The Hon. Gent.
an•opOrtunity of doing justize to an individual, whose feelings
had ueen hurt by what he (Mr. Mackenzie} believed to be a
misrep:esentation of the remarks made by the Hon. Gent.
Mr. G. BENNET entered into an explanation of some
leng,th ; but pot a sentence of what he said was audible in the

,
:
2,I..ACKENZIE expressed himstif perfectly satisfied
vita the Hon. Gentleman's explarution.
General. GASCOYNE nresetted a petition from Liverpool,
praying for a revision of the penal laws.—Ordered to be printed.
BE'NNET presented a petition from a naval.officer
(whose name- was not mentioned by the clerk on reading the
petition) stating that in consequence of his having been appoint-
ed to a situation in Greenwich Hospital, a pension to which he
would otherwise have been entitled was withheld from him, and
praying, the House to•take the hardship of his case into consi-
deration. .The lion. Meiriber stated that this officer had lost
an eye in. the service, was deprived of the use of one of his
limbs, had his jaw brokers, and his face lacerated in such a
shocking manner that he could hardly open his mouth; and
all the allowance granted him was only 22t11. a year, whereas
had he received the pensions to which his wounds and long ser-
vice entitled him, he would have 701. a year.
CROKER would not enter into a detail of this case,
which I-sad already been twice or thrice before the House. The
fact was, that this officer, as a matter of favour, was appointed
to a situation in Greenwich Hospital long before he was
entitled to a pension.
After a few words from Mr._ tENNET and Sir ISAAC COF-
FIX, the petition was read .and laid on the table.
Sir G. IiEATHCOTE presented a petition from Boston,
praying for an alteration of the criminal laws.—Ordered to
be printed.