The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-18 00:00:00

LAW COMMISSION.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished to know whether
the Commissioners of Inquiry into the State of the
Law, were to have any office or fixed place of meet-
ing, where persons might give evidence upon record,
so that they might ascertain whether the Report of
the Commissioners agreed with the evidence they
received.

Mr. PEEL thought it necessary that the Com-
missioners should have some place where evidence
might be received and documents kept.
POLICE OF IRELAND.

Mr. H. GRATTAN withdrew his motion relative
to the production of papers upon certain transactions
connected with the Police of Ireland.
BOROUGH OF LEICESTEft.

Mr. 0. CAVE rose to make his promised mo-
tion. The Hon. Member said that the accounts
ordered to be laid before the House,. relative to the
Gaol and House of Correction at Leicester, were in
a form so false that it was impossible to take the,
steps necessary to show that the erection of the Gaol
and House of Correction were totally unnecessary.
These buildings obliged a small part of the town to
submit to a taxation so severe that he knew a case.
of a man who, having purchased a house, was in-
duced to forfeit the deposit money, rather than sub-
mit to this new assessment. Appeals against the
accounts were also to be made before magistrates
who had expended the money. It was a gross case
of extortion and petty tyranny, and the petitioners
had no other hope of redress than in the interference
of the House. The Hon. Member concluded by
moving, that the petition should be referred to a Se-
lect Committee.

Mr. PEEL said it appeared to hiM that the Hon.
Member had been
.put forward by a party in
Leicester, to bring before the House all their local
contests. If he saw any intention to conceal any
froin the House; if he saw on the returns any
evasions; if the returns had been false; or if he had
seen any of the privileges of the House evaded—he
should have been ready to. accede to the Hon.
Member's motion. But he did not- think that any
grounds had been laid for acceding to the motion.
The order for the returns applied to all rates for the
gaols, &c. This " &c." was very indefinite ; and it
would be much better for the Hon. Metbber to
amend the order, and procure an amended return,
than send the petition to a Committee. The peti-
tioners complained of the gaol being built, but for
this the magistrates were not to blame; but he (Mr.
Peel) had brought in a Bill to provide for building
certain new gaols,. and -Leicester was .one of the
towns included.-- -He would recommend the Hon.
Member to procure- an amended return; 'for be did
not think this a case to call for the interference- of
the House.
Mr. H. GURNEY hoped that` another Bill Would
be brought-into that House more complete than the
last, and he should suggest it
rasa subject well worthy
the Right Hon. Gentlemans attention.
Mr. 0 TWAY CAVE explained. In the course
of his explanation the Hon. Member observed, that
he had not brought forward the motion because it
originated with the party of the borough of Leices-
ter which had sent him to the House. It had been
signed by almost all the inhabitants. His election
had no more to do with the petition, than had the
election for East Retford. If he had come down to
the House with solemn plausibility, ingenious can-
dour, and well-balanced cadence, and on that Eke—
tion Bill had declared he knew nothing of the
Dukery, and that that-borough was under the in-
fluence of the Duke of Newcastle, he should de-
serve as much to be believed as those were, who
falsely imputed personal motives to him for the mo-
tion he had submitted. - He would accept the pro-
posal of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and amend the
motion for a return. . _

Mr. MABERLY said the law was in such a state
with regard •to corporation funds, that something
ought undoubtedly to be done. • •
Mr. Secretary PEEL explained. There had been
some phrases used by the Hon. Member for the
borough of Leicester, which might apply, said the
Right Hon. Gentleman, to others as well as to me;
but there was one Word—falsely—Which he could
not mean to apply to any thing which fell from tne
—(Hear, hear.)—lf he did, I hope he will now re-
tract it.

Mr. OTWAY CAVE—I understood the Right
Hon. the Secretary of State, and I am in the pre-
sence of the House, which will correct me if I mis-
state; but I understood the Right Hon. Gentleman
to say that my motion originated in my own party
feelings, as regarded the late Leicester election. If
it was meant that my motives were personal, I can-
not retract what I have said. To impute personal
motives to me was most unfair, and I conceive false.
The SPEAKER—I can most solemnly assure
the House that, had I conceived it possible that the
Hon. Member had used any expressions which had
a personal application to any individual, or any
words that conveyed such an application, and. much
more what had passed in the House, I should have
instantly called him to order,. and asked for an apo-
logy and explanation.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon.
Member had used words which I declare most so-
lemnly I did not think were capable of the interpre-
tation he has ;Mw given to them. The Speaker re-
sumed his Chair, by calling for Mr. Otway Cave.
Mr. OTWAY CAVE—I hope and trust I did
not say any thing which was personally offensive; I
teepßelliigligt the imputa-
tionlion. Secre-
never had any intention of offending any Member of
this House. .But, if personal motives are imputed to
me ,
adopted.o
therN say
Ifofh
j'
tary will say he did not use the words in the sense I'
took them, I Will retract my words. The Right
tlhkanno :Ivia. t no I
Hon: Secretary argued that I hadTersonal motives,
but I bad no personal motives, and he had no right
to say so. If the Right Hoa. Secretary will,say that
he meant not to attribute personal motives to me, I
will make such a reply as shall be Satisfactory to the
House.
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member rmist see
that lie has not conformed'to•What I conceive,to be
the call of the Hattie.. I say agairf (order !),'that
did not 'conceive it. possible that elation. Member
meant the: words.be used,should be liable to the in-
terpretation he has put on them...l cannot believe
that any Hon. -Member, unless he say that be so in-
tended theinthat he "meant to'apply•them to any
individual in the House ' • and he owes it to hini-
Self-73e, owes it to the
House to say, that; these
-Words were not Meant, When used by him, to be
personally offensive to. any person. The Speaker
again called on Mr. Otway Cave. On taking his
seat—
Mr. OTWAY CAVE rose, • after a shore time,
.and said, I .am .quite ready to ask pardon of the
House, but I conceive the attack Was fiat made on

~,,

me. -And / have only to say, that
,my observation.
were made in the same sense that the observations
were made on me.
The SPEAKER—Order, order ! (Some (Alia
Member being about to rise, he said attend to the
Chair.) The Hon. Member knows that the pit'
vileges of this House cannot be trifled with. Those
privileges and the Members of the House will not
suffer that any personal offence should be given t°
individuals in the House. The Han, Member wit •
not. be the first roman to set the privileges of the
110n.,e at defiance. What is consistent with the
privileges of the House, and what the Haim' think
right, I demand.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WM. SMITH rose to speak, but the
SPEAKER called him to order, and• then ptc''
eeeded—l am under the correction of the House:,
but as the first time the Hon. Member was called'
on for an explanation, which I think- he is imps.'
ratively required to. make, he has not done so, the
House will insist on an explanation, and that
Hon: MeMber shall make reparation , to the House'
must, again, call for an explanation ; and if the,
Hon. Member does not make an explanation, I shah
think it. my .duty to name him to the House. V°
again called on Mr. 0. Cave.
Mr. OTWAY. CAVE—If the words of the
Right Hon. Secretary were not meant as I woke
stood them—(" No, no," from. the Ministerial bide
of the House.)—I can only say that I understood
them to impute personal motives :to me. I repeats
that if they were not so meant, I meant no offence.
The SPEAKER—The House must see, and the
Hon. Member must see, that an apology is still evi•
petted to 'the House. There was a necessity to call
for an explanation at the outset. It is my duty, and
the House is bound, to call on the HOn. Member
not only for an explanation, but for an apology. The
Hon. Member has used expressions that obvious]}`
demand it. I can assure the Hon. Member, that
neither the House nor his own honour can be satin'
tied unless he do. His duty will not ,be completed,.
nor his honour satisfied, if he do not make repot'
time That is the call of the House, and the Hee
Member knows what is owing to the House. The
Hon. Member must comply with the rules of the
House, and will best consult both his duty and eha'
teeter in doing so.
The SPEAKER—Mr. Otway Cave (a pause.)
The SPEAKER—Mr. Otway Cave (a pause.)
OTWAY CAVE—Mr. Speaker, if I bS'
said any thing contrary to the usage of this Houser
or disrespectful to the Chair, for such expressioo
I am perfectly
_willing to apologize to the Housefi
and to you.
The Hon. Member here took his hat, and wet
about to leave the House, when
The SPEAKER rose, and called " Ordef'
order!" The Hon. Member must not add insult t°
the offence already offered to the House, The
Member must know, that any irregularity used I)),
one Member to another Member of - this House,
an offence not only to that Member, but to the
whole House; and that any apology, explanation, e'
retraction entered into, cannot be partial, but
offence in all its character, and all its bearings, mu,
be retracted. ThiS I hold to be the sense and fee''
ing entertained by the House on this subject.";
(Hear, hear.)—When any Hon. Member has mad
use of expressions. not permitted in this House, 11:
cannot be allowed to draw any distiectiOn
.betweet
any one Member and the House at large.
Otway Cave—(A
The SPE AKER—Mr.Otway Cave-7-(A pausei
Mr. OTWAY CAVE—I am not aware, Sir,,
having, in what I have said, drawn any distinctie°
with reseeet to any Hine-MeMber of this HO°
Should any thing further than what I. have statedl
required of me on the part of ally Hon. Memberit
have only to say, that if. that Hon. Member
stand up and disclaim any personality -to me, I
be ready to say that I meant-nething personal
him. I have said or done nothing more than I cis
reined
ande to y
to myooluv, s n
ir,l ani,read
honourandeyhtaor,acipoteiro.gis/et:
the House
but surely the House will not expect more of °it,
until the Right Hon. Member has explained "
observations.
The SPEA.KER,—The House must perceive the
theikorr. Member's retraaation is:- partial,. where,
it ought-to -be =general. and unqualified. It is t,e
duty of this Mouse, and more particularly of tr,,
Chair, to take care that no Hon. Member shall
placed in such a situation that his honcnir orpersoyi‘r
character shall be injured; and I now repeat, ull6,ea
the direction of the House, that thi` surest waY
preserve the hon Our and character- of any Member
is by conforming to the regular-rules and forms Ile;
ecribed by Parliament. .
,Mr. Otway Cave--V

pause.) - -
Mr. SPRING RIPE begged to assure his goal'
Friend,'-the.Member for Leicester, that he, as
impartial -witness, could perceive no Offence-in W19:1
had fallen fromthe Right Hon. Member for 000'
-(Hear, hear.)
Dr. PHILLIMORE and Mr. R. COLBUI

concurred in this opinion.
Mr. ()TWAY CAVE—Sir, after what has bql:,
stated by the Hon. Friends around me, it would 17,
impertinent in me to hesitate any longer in offerig
an explanation and apology in'the sense you requir/
it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SPEAKER—Mr. Secretary Peel.
Mr. Secretary PEEL—Sir, it was out of m,
power to 'qualify or explain any impression used 11
me towards the Hon. Member, after the terj
" false" had been applied to me. If I.had apPlir
such an expression offensively to the Hon. Membr;
I should, without hesitation;have apologized to 11,
for it. But it was impossible that I could set V,
example of retractation, after what had fallen from
Hon., Member. The Hon. Member havift"
however, adopted your suggestion, I can have
hesitation in saying, that I never used any exprvo
sion towards him in an offensive sense. I am, fro
6
my situation, obliged to watch over many mess O 1
in this House, an it may be that I occasiontlie
express my opinions sommhat warmly, but as
anything like personal offence, I do assure the noir
that it ne-ver once entered my mind.—(Hear.)
Mr. OTWAY CAVE then withdrew his motio.h
l P,,
giving notice at the same time that he should .
morrow move to have the returns made from 1,1
tester amended.
NATIONAL DEBT BILL.
The National Debt Bill went through a Cod
mittee, in which an Amendment was introduc,
into he Bill, by the CHANCELLOR of the D,,
CHEQUER, limiting its Operation to the sth of Jli
;
1829, unless a previous provision were made to t
contrary by Parliament. The Report was order
to he received to-morrow.
IRISH BUTTER BILL.
The Irish Butter Bill was read a third time
passed.
of, Tal othernd t Or of
ro f the
before Day
Tlv
ewereh,
et he
o'clock spo se
tphoe
House adjourned.

Duke
Ihe of CUMBERLAND left town )I°,(
terday morning, on a visit to the KING, at the 11°1
Lodge, in Windsor Park.
to°
The Duke of CAMBRIDGE reviewed the ,f
battalions of the Coldstream Regiment of Foot GuariP,
which his Royal Highness is Colonel, in Hyde Park, ye10,„te,,.0
'day morning. The Royal Duke visited the Thames Vi"
nel in the afternoon.
• este Viscount GRANVILLE arrived in tOWAy- ,4
day afternoon from Paris, on his return from his .einr,
to the Court of France. His-Lordship left Paris en Ilk
day, and travelled to Dieppe, where his Lady and his-LO
ship's children were staying for the benefit of. ses-hat °to
The Noble Viscount, soon after his arrival,,procee4 °
e", f
the Foreign Office, and bad a conference with 'the 011:1
•
AliZanzEN. . ger.
A Cabinet Council was held ,yesterday
noon at the Foreign Office, which was attended Pi,;atr#
the
Loan CHANCELLOR, the Duke' of WeitarlGtoif, 101..
BATHURST and ABERDEEN, Lord ELLENEOEUDGIIf
Secretary PEEL, Sir GEORGE Muaßitr,' the '
LOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. }knaves, 'and 1116 Vzsri,
FITZGERALD. The Ministers assembled about two.
-and gat in deliberation near.two hours. •
Sir FREDERICK LAMB visited the 'Dike
WELLINGTON yesterday, at the Treasury.

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