The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-24 00:00:00

RESCUE OF FELONS

Mr. G. BENNET moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the law relative to the rescue of felons. A person who
attempted-the rescue of a felon was liable to the same punish-
ment as the felon himself. The Hon. Member shelved what
he contended was the defective state of the law upon this sub-
ject. If a person was convicted of attempting to rescue a
felon, he was liable to be, punished by seven years' trans-
portation ; whereas if he sueceesled in the rescue, he escaped
the meaning of the Acts. One of the objects of his Bill
v'as to give protection to those entrusted with the custody of
felons.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL did not rise to object to the
motion, but to notice the observation which had fallen from
the Hon. Member relative to the Act which provided• the pu-
nishment for the attempt to rescue felons. The Hon. Member
stated, that if a person succeeded in rescuing a felon, he was
notliable to suffer under the Act. But did he not know that
the actual rescue constituted • a felony of itself ? There was
consequently no necessity for providing a punishment by a
fresh Act.

Mr. G. BENNETT explained.—Leave was then given to
bring in the Bill.
Mr. WILBERFORCE gave notice of a motion for to-mor-
row se'nnight, for some papers connected with the Slave
Trade. From the very low tone in which he spoke we were
unable to collect the terms of the Hon. Meinber's motion.

Mr. COURTENAY postponed his motion respecting the
American Loyalists to the 6th of June.
FORGERY MITIGATION BILL.

Sir JAMES M ICKINTOSII moved the Order of
the Day for the House resolving itself into a
Committee on the Bill for Mitigating the Punish-
ment of Forgery.
The question being put that the SPEAKER
should leave the Chair,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL rose and said, that
he felt himself, though reluctantly, bound to op-
pose the motion. He was sure that his Hon.and
Learned Friend would not suppose that he did so
from being insensible to the feelings of humanity..
He felt himself compelled to do so from a sense
of public duty, and for the purpose of guarding_
against what he considered a public evil. In the
discussion of the question before the House,there
was one very gratifying consideration ; it was
this—that no party feeling could possibly obtrude
itself upon them, but that they would calmly and
fairly consider the question upon its own merits.
That great question arose out of the Report of
the Committee appointed in the last Session of
Parliament to inquire into the state of the Cri-
minal Law. It was therefore necessary to advert
to that Report. fie was willing to admit that
the Members of that Committee were-men, who,
from their talents and experience, were well cal-
culated to discharge the important trust reposed,
in them by the House. But still he would say,
that the Repo%'t appeared to him to have taken
but a very partial view of the subject. It was,
he conceived, impossible for any one to read that
part without being impressed with the conviction
that the Committee took but a very partial view
of the question. In saying that he did not impute
blame to the Committee, the thing naturally arose
out of the nature of the inquiry. Every one
knew that in this country there was a body of
men who were very adverse to the infliction of
capital punishments; such men, eager in the pur-
suit of a favourite object, pressed before the
Committee to give evidence in order to forward
their peculiar opinions. It was impossible to
look at the Report, and not to see that that ac-
tually took place. It was, he conceived, equally
obvious that persons impressed with very diffe-
rent opinions felt unwilling to appear before the
Committee uncalled for. Such persons were not
compelled, and of course no evidence from them
appeared 'on the face of the Report. The Report
itself was evidently drawn up in haste,' as many
inaccuracies appeared in it. Thus, it was stated,
that stealing in dwelling-houses to the amount of
40s. was a 'capital offence by the -law as it stood.
Now he had no hesitation is saying that there ivas
no law respecting stealing in houses to the amount
of 405.• In like manner the Report stated that
stealing in ships and vessels in navigable rivers was
a capital-offence; there was no such offence known
to the law of England; he mentioned 'so much,
in order to prove that the Report was` drawn up
in haste, and without due consideration. The
House would allow him to make another obser-
vation on the Report—the Report brought for-
ward a charge, by implication, against the memory
of a Learned Judge whose character he venerat-
ed (we understood the llonourable Gentleman
to allude to the late Judge Heath); that Learned
Judge was represented to have acted in a harsh
and cruel manner on the trial of a party who was
convicted at the lissex Assizes, under the Statute
of Geo. I. for having cut-down timber. The man
was found guilty, and was executed. The charge
against the Learned Judge, and against the Se-
cretary of-State for the Home Department, was
thit the man did not suffer so much for the crime
for which he was Convicted, but for other crimes
of which he was suspected, but of which he was
not convicted. Such a charge, so serious ill its
nature, brought too against the memory of a
'Learned Judge, should not have been has-
tily made, should not have been made with-
out due inquiry. The Committee had it in their
power to have instituted that inquiry=the Clerk
of the Crown for Essex lived in London? and

might have been called before tbern aird exanrin-
ed ; no such examination or inquiry took place.
lie (the Solicitor General) had inquired into the
circumstance, and he ascertained that the indivi-
dual who had suffered the sentence of the law,
so far from not having been convicted of any
other crime,. -was at that very Assize -charged
under eight distinct indictments, with eight dis-
tinct offences, one of which was burglary; and-Of
four of those offences he was convicted. lie ask-
ed, then, was it for such an individual that the
Learned Judge could have called for the mercy
of the Crown ?
Mr. Buxros--Was'be convicted of the bur-
glary

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—There were seven
cases of larceny charged against him, of four of
those he was convicted ; he was not convicted of
the burglary—(Hear, hear ! from the Opposi-
tion.)—lt was proved that he had cut down the
timber from motives of malice against the pro-
prietor of the land. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman said, he thought, it necessary'
to state the circumstance, not for the purpose
of throwing any censure upon the Committee,
but to free the character of a man he highly
revered, from the odium which might by possi-
bility be thought to have been thrown by their
Report upon his memory. In adverting to the
Bill before them, it appeared that the object of
that Bill was to take away, for the first offence,
the punishment of death in cases of forgery of
every description, save those of notes of the Bank
of England. It was necessary therefore to Con-
sider the cases to which the Bill applied. It ap-
plied to the forgery of wills—a crime easily com-
mitted, and by which families might be stript of
their entire property. It applied also to the for-
gery of marriage settlements—a crime which went
to destroy not merely the property of families,
but to affect the legitimacy and character of its
members. It, also applied to the forgery of deeds
of conveyance of property to any amount, and
cases of the transfer of stock—cases so very im-
portant, and on which depended property to a
great amount. He recollected having been em-
ployed hi one case where the party was charged
with having committed forgery respecting the
transfer of stock to the amount of 20,0001. The
House, he thought, should not in cases of such
great importance, proceed to alter the law with-
out having before them the strongest reasons for
a measure so important to the country—so deeply
affecting the security and property of families.—
lie was aware that it might be said that' the ex-
isting laws against forgeries were but so many in-
novations on the common law. By time common
law the crime of forgery was'not punishable With
death, it was treated as a misdemeanor. But it
should be recollected, that in the infancy of so-
ciety, when commerce was limited, and the trans-
actions of the people were simple, forgery was a
crime of rare occurrence. But as commerce in-
creased, and society advanced, the crime of for-
' gery became more frequent ; hence the statute of
'Elizabeth, a statute enacted to guard against the
repetition of the crime. That statute, though it
did not inflict the punishment of death, affixed a
punishment nearly as grievous. It enacted, that'
every one convicted of the crime of forgery, should
pay to the party injured double the value of the
property, should be imprisoned for life, should be
put in the pillory, and have his ears nailed to the
pillory—should have his nose slit, and should be
seared with a red hot iron,—should forfeit his
goods and chattels to the Crown, and his lands
and tenements for life. Such was the dreadful pu-
nishment affixed to the first offence ; for the secOnd
offence the party was to be executed. So the
law remained until the reign of George 11. The
manners of the times rendered that law necessary.
The Revolution effected a sensible change in the
manners and feelings of the country. Imprison-
ment for life, and the dreadful punishment of
mutilation, could no longer be effected. The
law of Elizabeth remained'a dead letter, and the
crime of forgery greatly increased in consequence.
To meet the evil the Act of George Ti. was
made ; it was made after very great considera-
tion, and with the best advice. Lord Ilardwicke
was then Attorney Gene'ral, and Lord Talbot
was Solicitor General. The Act, so cautious
was the Legislature, was first tried as a tempo-
rary Act, to expire in five years: The subject
was shortly afterwards brought again under the
consideration of the Legislature.
,Some verbal
defects having been discovered in the Act, it
became necessary to correct them, in conse-
quence of which, in less than a year after the
passing of the Act, the matter was brought a se-
cond time before Parliament. Again, shortly
before the expiration .of the five years, the sub-
ject was by-ought under Legislative consideration,
and the Act having been found effective was
made perpetual. Since that period the subject
was frequently brought under the view of Par-
liament ; so lately • as the year 1805, those Acts
were re-enacted, with reference to a particular
object; The -House was- aware that Scotland
was exempted from the provisions of the Act of
George 11., because at the time that Act was
passed, forgery, by the law of Scotland, was pu-
nished with death ; and a great many
.executions
had taken place 'in that country from the time of
passing the statute of Elizabeth to time reign of
George 11. He had, in support of the prevent
system, the practice of this country during the
Administration of some of the wisest men that
ever lived in it, and during Parliaments which
had been composed of men of the brightest ta-
lents. When they fouud a law so established,
it required that not an ordinary, but an irre-
sistible case should be made out to warrant its
repeal. What, then, were the reasons on which
this Bill was founded ? If they looked to the
Preamble of the Bill they would find the only
.reason there stated was that the existing law was
ineffectual for the prevention of forgery. On
this issue he would meet his Honourable and
Learned Friend. All his experience and the ex-
perience of those of the greatest knowledge on
such subjects, whom he had consulted, induced
hirn to withhold his assent to this proposition.
He was convinced that although the crime was
not altogether repressed (as what crime could be
by any punishment ?), and that though some in-
stances or it'occurred which were not brought to
punishment, yet on the whole it was effectually

prevented. But it was stated, that if the punish-
ment were mitigated, there would be more con-
victions, because' many persons might not now
prosecute from the knowledge that the penalty of
the crime was death, and that that severe penalty
Was generally inflicted in case of conviction. The
truth of this he did not deny, but he denied that
they could argue on this fact alone. They must
take- the whole of- the case together. Though
they might by mitigating the law increase the
prosecutions, they should put, on the otheislde,
the diminution of the terror of the heavy penalty
and of the almost certain infliction of that penalty
in case of conviction. This brought him naturally
to the nature of the punishment proposed to be
substituted for that of death. The object of
punishment was the prevention of crime by terror.
The punishment in this case was to be transpor—
tation. Now it was.known that transportation
was scarcely regarded in the light of a punish-
ment ; that it was regarded with no terror ;. that
the criminals on being sentenced to it often bowed
to the Judge and thanked him. Who were the
persons who were likely to commit private for-
gery ?—They were individuals who were in dis-
tress or embarrassment, and in circumstances
in which the success of their crime seemed to
them probable. Such a man would say to him-
self—" If I am convicted, what is the result ? I
shall suffer transportation—a change of circum-
stances scarcely to be deprecated. If I succeed,
and am not detected, I may escape to another
country to live in affluence ;" for it was to be re-
collected that this was a crime the object of which
was, not the possession of a few pounds, but of a
whole fortune.-7-(Hear !)—He did pot say
that a man about to commit a crime coolly reason-
ed thus, but these considerations passed through
his mind, and determined him as by instinct.
But as the law now stood, he would reason thus,
perhaps—" the humanity of the person whom I am
attempting to defraud may withhold him from prose-
cuting, but if he does I am sure to forfeit my life."
He asked them, then, whether the new law was
not likely to be much more inefficient to the pre-
vention of the crime than the present law ? Yet
the prevention of the crime 'was the only object
which the Bill recognised. But his Hon. and
Learned Friend would say, " I do not confine
you to transportation, you may inflict hard la-
bour and imprisonment." But in fact, whatever
might hereafter be effected by the labour of the
benevolent individuals who were labouring so
usefully to that purpose, there was no such pu-
nishment in England as imprisonment and hard
labour for great crimes.- That punishment did
not exist as an object of terror, especially as re-
garded those crimes, the commission of width
was attended with great pecuniary reward. The
objection which he had to the punishment of
transportation would therefore apply with more
force to the other alternative of hard labour.
He had now, he conceived, gone oyer The whole
of the, case, when he showed that the proposed •
13i11 could not be effectual to the repression of
the crime. It was said, and he did not wish to
evade the argument, that in other countries a
milder punishment was applied to the crime, and
was effectual. In reply to this he should say,
that in other countries they had surer ways of
detecting and of convicting criminals, from the
peculiar nature of their institutions, which this
country could not bear, and which he hoped to
God never would. When individuals in those
countries were charged with crime, they were
obliged (as was sometimes the practice at the
Bar of the House) to admit their own crimes.
To these causes alone was it to be attributed
that in those countries the milder' punishment
was inflicted. Unless, therefore, some substi-
tute for the punishment of death was pointed out,
the Bill could not be supported. He had re-
ferred to the Statute of Elizabeth, the punish-
ments of which were of the most cruel nature,
and which • could not be tolerated • in this age.
The observations he had made applied to Om
offence of forgery. It would probably be con-
venient that he should not refer to the subjects
of the other Bill, till they came to'be discussed.—
!)—He should therefore now move that
this Bill be committed this day six months.—
(Hear, hear !)
Mr. BUXTON said, in rising to reply to the. So-
licitor-General, he should not do justice to his
own feelings if he did not bear testimony to the
extreme candour with which he had met the
question.—(Hear, hear !)—He was rejoiced to
find there was no great difference between him
and his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir J. Mack-
intosh). He had said that the Gentlemen who
supported the measure had not as yet discovered
a substitute, and therefore he could not consent
to the abolition of the 'punishment of death. He
(Mr. Buxton) did not mean to say that transpor-
tation would be a good substitute ; in fact, it was
no punishment at all. It seemed to be one of the
privileges of his Majesty's subjects, open to any
one who might qualify himself by committing a
transportable •offence ; but when he admitted
that, was it to be assumed there was no other
punishment ? There was strict prison discipline,
close confinement, and hard labour, which were
the. proper secondary punishments. He was
happy to hear the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
lay down the doctrine that prevention of crime
was the great object of punishment. This was
the precise point he was aiming at. We have
been going on in this country year after year
under the impression that punishment prevented
crime. For the last century a rapid increase
had been made in the criminal law ; severity
seemed to be wisdom, and capital punishments
the only mode of preventing crime ; and now he
supposed the country had arrived at the highest
pitch of perfection, and could repose with secu-
rity, and as it was so eminently distinguished for
the severity of the punishment, so also it would
be remarkable for the paucity of its crime.—
(Hear.)—But there were facts that could .be
stated that placed this system in the most for-
midable and alarming point of view. In 18-18
it appeared that no less a number than 107,000
persons passed through the prisons of this
country ; and if prevention , be •the object of
punishment, he should wish to ask any im-
partial person whether in this multitude of
delinquents he saw any symptom of an effec-
tive law ? There was another fact, just as impor-

taut and as melanCholy :—lt appeared upon evi- •
dence which was but too conclusive, that there
were from eight to ten thousand juvenile offend=
ers who actually earned their daily bread from
their daily enormities. At present they were em-
ployed in petty pilfer, but would soon become
'formidable to society ; and he would ask any
man whether, from the number of these juvenile
offenders, from amongst whom the jails, peniten-
tiaries, and 'gibbets were supplied with victims,
he' san, any prospect of an effective law ?—(Hear,
hear!)—There was another' consideration with
which he should not detahrthe House, namely, a
comparison of England in this respect with other
countries. But would it be believed that in.
France, with its twenty-nine millions of inhabi-
tants, where the peace-officers kept the closest-
watch on the people, the numbers were less than
in England, where the officers paid scarcely any
attention at all. If a foreigner came to.examine
the matter, the first thing he should inquire would
be, " Has• this system been tried sufficiently
,long, and on a scale extensive enough to judge of
its effects ?" The Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman had admitted it was sufficiently long: in
practice, and God knows it had been tried' on a
sufficiently wide scale in this couotry,,where, kill
your fatherand kill a rabbit, the punishment was
the same—destroy the three, countries .and shoot
a hawkplei the punishment was the same—meet a
gipsy woman on the road, and. kill the said gipsy,
and you would not be punished mote severely than
for merely living with the said gipsy.—(hear!)---
When he considered all things he must come to
this conclusion, that something Was wronein the •
system. The Hon. Gentleman then went into a
long statement to prove that
.when the- punish-
ments of crimes were mitigated, prosecutions be- •
came more numerous, and the crime itself g,ra-
dually diminished. In
.1807 some persons be-
longing to linen-bleachers, in Lancashire, pre-
sented a Petition to the Moose, praying for a Mi-
tigation of-the punishments against offenders. The
prayer was complied with, and the consequence
was, that the number of delinquents gradually
diminished. He quoted similar instances in the
north of Ireland. lie laid those statements be--
fore the House .to spew that no evil consequences
could arise from the mitigation of. these laws.—
The House then was called on by every principle
of common sense,-common justice, and common
honesty, to abandon a system which they have
fonnd did not. succeed. The Hon. Gentleman
then alluded to the state of crime in- the reign of
Henry VIII. during whose reign 72,00 Q persons
were put to death, exclusive of. his religious- exes
cutions ; and this, upon a calculation, amounted
to six deaths a day, Sundays included, during
his reign. , The Learned Gentlemen on the
other side placed all their confidence on the
old law of the land, and it would surprise
the House to Yearn
,that, there could he -ne
greater innovation than the modern law on the
spirit .of the old law of the country. The old code
of law was still preserved to us, and no such se- j
verity was to be found iu it. The code of
King Alfred, for example, repealed the whole of
the old Jewish law, as unfit, from its severity, for
a Christian kingdom. The Danes, abolishi4
every, thing else, retained that paucity of crinil-
gal punishinents which the Saxons introduced ;
and King Canute had ordered that judgments
should be merciful before God7 and forbade that
Christian men should be executed for slight
causes. . The most remarkable proselyte was
William the Conqueror himself, whO was pont-
trayed by his contemporaries as'a tyrant and do- .
presser—as one who loved the tall stagS as if
were their father, yet he had declared that Pe
man should be put to death for any crime whit"
ever. Judge Blacksione's and Sir Henry Spel-
man's authority were to the same effect ; the 13V
ter regretted that whilst every thing else had he-.
'come dearer, the life of man had becomcheaPel‘
than ever. The law as it stood at present haLlt
comparatively speaking-, no antiquity at all;
There. were persons still in existence who' coul',.
remember when the criminal code contained not
More than seventy capital offences, although lg
now contained 'more than three tines that nom'
her, and of the six hundred men condemned to,
death last year, the far greater' proportion 9'
those who suffered death was under the authoritf
of those statutes which were so .comparative;{
recent: The factis, that the old cornmon °
the land and the recent statute law are complete'
'ly at variance ; on that he would give no opini°r's
but such was the fact. A few words an fire
manner in which these laws had been passed
It appeared that our whole penal code had beef
quadrupled within the last century; every vela
one capital offence, at least, was- created, 0
sometimes the Legislature had fagotted th'o
t:
together, making up a bundle of ten or twele
offences—one of which might be of such a 04,
tore as to 'be punishable with a fine of
and another an atrocious murder. The fact
that they were all passed stir) silentio, «'r
out any debates orinquiry whatsoever. He I°.
heard an anecdote which skewed how these
were made. Mr. Btirke :being about to leave t.13f1,1
House, was stopped by a Learned Sergeant, !yip
requested to stay
.a short tame loager.
Burke pleaded that lie was in haste ; to wll'f
the other replied, .that there was .only a fel°o
without benefit of clergy to dispose of, 311'
could not possibly, therefore, lake above a,efct.
minutes. Another anecdote, to the same ePt of
was of Sir :William Meredith, who,,going 0d A
'the House up stairs to write a letter, fot''' to
country gentleman in the room nearly asleer,;oa
whom a clerk was reading. Sir William f°.600
his•letter.constantly interrupted with a rePetl he
of a sort of chorus, " for every such, 011.01111 e
shall suffer death without benefit of clergY: ate '
inquired what it was, and was informedabil bl
gentlemen in the country had suffered oti hatl
having their turnips stolen, and the minister that
consented to make it a' capital offences Sfuria
they hoped to be no more troubled with
stealers He • (Mr: Buxton) would asZio,
House whether laws pwsed hi.ruoments Of "
the '
tion and resentment were to be considered 35 • A
.
old pillars of the Constitution ? lie " °'ld tts.
the Learned Gentlemen opposite who ere
••
Solons mid Lycurgii to whom we were 1.1
for our criminal code ?
'They
nameless persons, but theirpreudi "e",
cvesa'll(ll: tt:lft°rLi
r

grammar demonstrated who these legislators Were.
He was willing to grant, for argument sake, that
the present system had some advantages, but he
would ask the House to consider the price they
cost. ' The price that was paid for them was the
popular aid and concurrence with the law ; yet
• without that aid, or the assistance of such a spe,
cies of police as even the Hon. and Learned
• Gentleman himself would deprecate, crimes
• 93.04 not be repressed. By our old • law much
`'mss left to the people themselves ; they were
juries, witnesses, and prosecutors. On that sys-
tem another has been ingrafted, which was com-
pletely inefficient, because the rigours of the law
dad turned the people over to the side of the
- offenders. Thus assistance was expected from a
People who have a nice sense of humanity and of
justice, to aid in punishing with equal severity
--crimes of every different degree, and in this it
was expected also that religious persons would
Join ; but a very religious man could not con-
sistently be the prosecutor in a great number of
these offences. There was a period when the
opinion of the people was consonant to the laws,
• but it was now widely different. It would be
allowed that the people of this country had made
the greatest steps in huthanity and civilization
within the last century, and in the same period
the laws had contracted a great degree of fero-
city, and thus the most humane people were left
to execute the most merciless laws. The Hon.
Member then reviewed the steps which the Com-
mittee had taken, in tracing by evidence the
progress of a criminal, from the first crime to the
termination of his career of guilt, and observed,
that the invariable reply of all the witnesses,
whether magistrates, bankers, chaplains, or
gaolers, was favourableto a mitigation of the se-
verity-of the law. He wished the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite would look to the
-Y-hole of these evidences, and • consider whether
it was as Dryden says—
. " Whence is it, Heaven, that men unskilled in arts,
Of various ages, and of various parts, . •
From motives, none can guess the how or why,
Should all conspire to cheat us with a lie I"
110 W, he would ask, could it happen, that per-
sons So various should all conspire to cheat them
with a lie ? It was said by way of solution, that
it was a conspiracy : but another solution was,
that they spoke alike because they spoke the
truth. With the exception of Paley and Wind-
barn, all authorities were, in his favour; to say
nothing of Dr. Johnson, look at the host of
legal authorities : Sir Thomas More, Lord Bacon,
Lord Coke, Lord Clarendon, Lord Ashburnham,
Sir W. Blackstone, and besides some lately dead,
there were persons now living whose authority
Was equal to any names of history. The Hon.
Member then referred to • the Sessions Paper of
the Old Bailey, to shew the manner in which
Juries were perjured in reducing the value of ar-
ticles stolen below the sum necessary to make the
offence punishable with death. If perjury were
not committed, he should'he glad to-know how
it- came that a Bank note in one place should be
worth, in the opinion of 12 men, 4s. 10d. and
whilst every where else it would be said to
be worth 501. He concluded his. quotations
by referring to the well-knoWn Pevensey case,
where a man was indicted for stealing a pair of
leather breeches, and found guilty of man-
slaughter, from the-desire of the Jury to subject
- the -criminal to a capital punishment. Another
case was that of a man who was charged with re-
turning from transportation, and found guilty of
llu"tY larceny.—(A. laugh.)—There was still a
r IYeater price paid for these things than the one
Itich he .had already alluded. He meant
that the law greW those crimes which it after-
.wrds puniShed. It first made the man a cri-
lal, and then punished him for the offence.—
"e prisons were absolutely manufactories of
. criminals, and the police 'was disgraceful to the
eoUntry. The whole arose from our hanging our
"Pes-on ultimate punishment,•to the utter disre-
gard of. prevention. If it were intended to en-
c.oarage the growth of' crime, no system could
be more 'effectual than the impunity which pre-
4v,_ailed. for early offences. On the evening of
the day 'when eight persons had suffered the
sentence of the law, be went, in company with
qie worthy Chairman of the Society for the
Suppression of JUvenile Delinquents, to one
of the places of resort of those delinquents,
to see if such an awful example had stopped the
torrent of vice, even for a day.. lie found him-
'elf in a room full of young persons of both sexes
from eight years of age, and in the Midst was a
notorious dealer in forged Bank notes. Some
art of the blame arising from-the existence of
iniquity must arise from the indifference of
the Govetnment to checking the career .6f. t'he
offender at his outset.. On thiS head-he begged
quote to them -what was said by Lord Cake, a
c4wYer, and not remarkable for humanity. He
,:nsidered the principle of prevention was well
r:rthY of the attention of the House of Com-
tts`nis• He said, " Blessed be the inan who laid
the first stone of so good a work ; more blessed
b)e_ who continued it but above `all would he be
essed who should complete it." So said. Lord
Coke 200 years ago, and the first stone was not
Yet laid !. The Hou. Member recapitulated the
Principal points of his speech, and concluded
w
observing, that the preSent system had au-
thority and experience against it; and, above
it was contrary to that religion which 44 de-
Siires not the death of a sinner, but rather that he
4nould turn from his iniquity and live."
. _Mr. BRIGHT was little
.friend I y -to the sheddino-
of human blood, but he thought the House ought
not to suffer itself to be led away by theory or
by the magnificent disquisition which they had
heard on the criminal laws. Much of what had
_been said appeared to. him to have very little
• bearing on the real merits of the case. Ile could
not consent: to give up capital punishments in
cases of forgery. In the present state of society,
this could not be done with any regard to the se-
curity of property. He showed that forgery was
not acrime that was committed like many lar-
cenies under the immediate pressure of want, and
the offence was often repeated many times by the
.Same individuals. It was clearly shown in the in-
quiries which had taken place, that transporta-
tion was in many instances no longer regarded as
n punishment,
yet this was proposed to be substi-
tuted fordeath in cases of forgery. It was for the

Legislature to protect the property of their fel-
low creatures, and that property must be protect-
ed according to the dram-stances of the times.
The statement which had been made, and the
report to which theit attention had been called,
were not borne out by the evidence on which
they were founded. He could not see'that there
was much reluctance on the part of prosecutors
or witnesses hi cases of forgery, and therefore he
called on the House to look at the evidence for
themselves, and not rely implicitly on the report
of their Committee. An lion. Member of that

louse had declined prosecuting for forgery. But
his did not prove that there was any general re-

ictauce to come forward on such occasions. In

:he particular case referred to, he thought very
'ew would have prosecuted the offender under all

the circumstances of the case. It was true that
many bankers and others had refused to prose-
cute for. forgery ; but it was also true, that mer-
chants and traders and others feeling the impor-
tance of bringing such offenders to justice, had
formed themselves into associations to. prosecute.
This was known, yet no member of those associ-
ations had been called before the Committee.
Individuals had been called who could speak on
one side of the question, while those who might
have given evidence on the other had not been
examined. The members of that profession who
might have been expected to have given the
best information on the subject had been ex-
cluded from the inquiry. Not one of the Learn-
ed Judges engaged in the Administration of
Criminal Justice had been examined by the Com-
mittee. The evidence was not such as 'to justify
the proposed change in the law. lle would not
say that the course taken in the time of Queen
Elizabeth, that of repressing crime by increased
severity of punishment, ought now to be resorted
to ; but this he would say, that before they re-
moved :a great security 'for property, like the
punishment of death in cases of forgery, they
ought to have stronger evidence before them than
that on which the Report of the Committee had
been founded.

Mr. J. SMITII would not on this occasion, but
for an allusion made to him, have addressed the
house after the speech which had been made by
.an Hon. Gentleman (the Member for Weymouth),
which speech he hoped had made not the, same
impression on the house that it had made on
him, but some portion of that impression, and
then it could not but essentially serve the cause
of humanity. He had declined in one case pro-
secuting an individual, because, if- found guilty,
he knew that the punishinent would , be death.
The offender was but sixteen years. of age, and
;lis youth and other circumstances made that im-
pression on him, that it would have inflicted real'
misery had he.been compelled.to prosecute him
to conviction. It was true that a society (now
no longer in existence) had been- formed, to pu-.
nish forgery ; but it was also true that cases had
frequently occurred in which means were taken
to put a stop to prosecutions for 'forgery which
had been instituted. He had known ,forgeries
committed by the most ignorant,. the most
helpless, and the most artless of men. A few
weeks ago the case of a man was brought be-
fore the public for uttering forged notes; he,
had been induced to interfere in his behalf;
and Lord.Sidmouth, with that humanity ;which
always distinguished his conduct, had inquired
into the circumstances of the case, anil 'the
life of the individual was spared. The unfortu-
nate man, it appeared, was an Irishman-; he had
come over to this country to make. hay, and had
been employed to circulate forged_ one-pound.
notes, receiving ss. for each he put off. Ile (Mr.
J. Smith) had had some conversation with this per-,
son. Itwas on the Saturday preceding the Tuesday
on which he was to have been executed that he
saw him, and he found the man so ignorant, that
though he conversed with him for some time, he
could not convince him that there was any thing
wrong in that for whiCh he had been sentenced to
die. lle had expected, from the great talents of
the Hon. Gentleman
,who had just spoken, that
he would have entered into the argument of his

lion. Friend. Instead of that, he had contented
himself with a sort of general attack on the Re-
port of the Committee. He believed that wit-
nesses had been fairly collected together on that
occasion. lie could have wished to hear the
Hon. Gentleman apply himself to that part of
_his
Hon. Friend's argument, which assumed that the
present system encouraged perjury. He was
confident that it had that effect; and. he thought
nobody could sit in the Old Bailey Court while
the less important business was going on--Z-when
three or four wretches were tried in an hour,
without being satisfied that half the. Juries per-
jured themselves, and returned verdicts which
were not justified by the evidence. This was
one evil resulting from the severity of the law,
which ought to be remedied as soon as Circum-
stances would admit.
Mr. it. MARTIN observed, that the Petitions
on the table afforded abundant proof that
the sense of the country was adverse to making
forgery a capital crime. In answer to what had
fallen from the Learned Solicitor-General, he
would ask that Hon. and Learned di entlemaq,
whether, if he had a ward at that University
where the lion. and Learned Gentleman had ob-
tained so much honour, and if a friend of that
ward's were to col-limit a forgery upon him for
50/. or 1001.; and if that ward were to ask his
advice what to do, the Hon. and Learned Gent.
would not say to him," If you wish to live hap-
pily in college, do not hang your friend and com-
panion; forfeit your recognizance to prosecute if
you have entered into one, for no young lady of
rank and fortune will ever marry a man ‘vlio has
hanged his friend and companion."—ln the case
of Dr. Dodd, did not the prosecutor, fall into
great odium and contempt on account of the pro-
secution ? In his own case, a man to whom he had
been a great benefactor, whom he had raised
from indigence and made a collector of the reve-
nue, had committed a forgery upon him for
20001.; but finding that his counsel (Mr.M'Nally)
had laid the indictment against the offender capi-
tally, contrary to his (Mr. Martin's) instructions,
he had caused the 'recognizance to be forfeited,
and the criminal escaped by this compounding of
felony. He was convinced that if the law were
not altered, juries would soon trifle with their

oaths in cases of forgery, as they now did in cases
of larceny and other offences.
`Dr. LUSiIINatON argued that severity of pu-
nishment had not'the effect of preventing crime.
In the Court with which he was connedtedi in the
course of the last 13 years, three wills had
been forged, and the same number of wills, with,
in the same period, hqd been feloniously destroy-
ed. It was seen in this instance that the offelice
which was punished with death, was just as fre-
quently committed as the
.other, against which
no Such punishment could be awarded. But it
was asked, would you take away the punishment
of death for forging marriage registers ? - Why

that was a crime which he had never known to be
committed. He could recollect but one case of

the kind (he would not name the parties,)" and in
.that one no prosecution had been instituted. Se-
verity of punishment, he was satisfied, from all he
had seen, did not 'prevent the increase of crime
as some individuals. were ioclined 'to believe

it did. Eighteen years- ago there was a case
of a boy passing by the Old. Bailey at the time
when a man was being executed for forgery.—
Up to that time the boy,- Who was a merchant's
clerk, had bornethe highest character for honesty ;
but inquiring for what crime the.man had suffer-
ed, and being told that it was for forgery, he
went borne and committed a forgery that very
day, so little did the' punishment which he had
witnessed have upon him. For that forgery the
boy was tried and convicted., Great interest was
made for him, and his life was saved on its being
stated by the Ordinary of Newgate, that the cul-
prit was unfit to 'take the Communion, and con-
sequently unfit to suffer:- The Honourable Mem-
ber for Galway had stated a casein which he had
declined proSecuting a person capitally who. had
forged on him, but wished another course to be
taken with the party, This was the course
usually taken in Ireland ; and, what must be the
feeling of the country with respect to the laws,
when such had become the general practice, under
the sanction of the .Judges In the course of the
last week a case had occurred in which the per-
son forged 'Upon had declared it to he his in-
tention to prosecute the offender for embezzling,
and in that way to submit to any expence to
bring him to justice, though he would not take
his life away. He (Dr. Lushington) had in one
instance done. the same. • lle had declined pro-
secuting a person who had forged on him. That
individual had known the greatest vicissitudes ;
he had been a common pickpocket, but had at
last obtained an honest, though humble situation,
(the fact Was rather singular) in .a Court of Jus-
tice. He noticed other instances where offenders
had escaped through reluctance to punish capitally.
lle disapprOyed- of the punishment of death in
cases of forgery, as it was irremediable, and both'
Judges and Jurors were liable to be deceived.'
Instances of this had occurred at Chester, at
Stafford, and_ at Durham, within the last three
Years, where persons had been left for execution
who had been subsequently proved to be perfect-
ly innocent. He _then .complained 9f the recep-
tacles which were open for thieves in this metropo-.
lis, which he regarded as disgraceful to the Po-
lice. He had visited one of these, and after
passing through a.very long passage ;in total dark-
ness, he entered
_the room, in which were from
• twenty to 'thirty persons. He had inquired if
'there was one among them who did not live by
Jobbery ?:They-all avowed that they- ihred by
depredations on the public ; and in the course. of
the succeeding four months three of them for•
felted their lives to the -violated laws of their
country. .The• house, in which they met had
since been shut up, but the, nuisance was not -0-
moved, as another house in,the same neighbour-
hood had been opened' for the' reception of the
-charatters he had described. He concluded;re-
commending it to the House to endeavour to pre-
vent crime by securing an active, police and well
regulated jails, and by taking such'other mea-
sures is -Might be necessary.. The SUbject de-
manded the most serious attention of the Rouse,
and ,he hoped the laws of. the country would be
so amended as to make them coalesce with the.

•
feelings of the country.
- Mr. NOLAN observed, that the preSent was not
the time to consider whether :the police of the
metropolis was adequate to the prevention of
crime: The *object of all punishment was 'to
deter, by example, from the commission of crime.
Death was. the punishment, in the opinion .of
most persons, most proper for forgeries on the
Bank of :England :'he would 'therefore ask, why
the-forgery of other instrtimerifs Should be con-.
sidered.as deserving less punishment? Did the
Hon. Member for Weymouth (Mr. Buxton) dis-.
tinguish between the guilt of forgery on the.
Bank of England and on country banks ?
the forgeries of the latter to be considered less
criminal than the forgeries of the former ?
(Loud cries of Question l)—The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman (1)r. Lushington) had stated
to the House the case of a clerk, who, the very
day on which he had witnessed an execution for
forgery at the Old Bailey,. bad then, for the first
time, committed a forgery onhis employer.. That
.was _mentioned, in order to persuade. the House
that severe punishment did not operate to the
1 prevention of crime. All he could say in re-
ply to that was, that insanity. Was an excuse'
for any thing. lie Could not agree With those
who thought there was an indisposition• mani-
fested throughout the country to prosecute for
forgery, on account of the severity of the punish-
ment. And it was his firm conviction, that for-
geries were multiplied on account of the number
of persons who were allowed to plead to the
minor offence. The jion. and Learned Member
contended, that the juries of the country were
not guilty of those pious perjuries ascribed to,
them.; and he thanked God that Juries had it in
their, power to interpose effectually, when the
circumstances of the case required i,t; by recom-
mending. the individual to ,the mercy of. the
Crown.: After some more observations (which
we were unable to hear on account of the noise
which prevailed); the lion. and Learned Gentle-
man concluded by saying he should vote.-for the
Amendment of the Solicitor-General.
Mr. C. W. \VYNNE concurred in what had
fallen from his Hon. and Learned Friend .who
spoke last but,one, namely, that those who sup-
, ported capital punishment were bound to prove

the necessity of it. Nothing- but the greatest ne-
cessity and the Safety of the State could jus,tify,
'taking-human life. The 'ancient lagave bene-
fit Of clergyond wisely adapted secondary punish:-
ment rather than capital punishnienti The'Com-'
mittee folloWing that.eXample had Made the first
crime.of forgery On.the Bank subjeet to ptinish-,
nient less than death. The Second' offend was to'
be punished
,With death. The ease of private for-
geries, and the forgery of wills, occasioned in his
mind some doubt. That class of crime ought,
perhaps, to distinguished in the Bill by capi-
tal 'punishment ; but, under all the circumstances,
the. Hen. Alember deClared his intention to vote
for going into the Committee.
Mr. CotinTENAT, having been one of the Com-
mittee; was desirous of saying a few words in jus-
tification of the vdte he should give. Looking to
the state of the public mind on' the subject, he
was inclined to support the , Petitions,. had
frequently been laid on the table praying for re-
vision of the criminal laws. At first he was averse
to going into inquiry, but yielding to public opi-
nion he at- last became one of the Committee.—
The Hon. Member defended the proceedings of
the Committee, and' contended, that every effort
had . been made to give general satisfaction, in'
their investigation of. the subject. An objection
had been made to the Committee, and it was said,
why did- they not examine the Judges ? It'.was
better, in his opinion, not to examine tliOse
learned persons. ' How could they give opinions
on the subject, when they might have to try the
offenders ? He felt the force of the argument,
which required private forgeries' to be punished
with death ; but still he was persuaded that se-
condary punishment might be made effectual. He
was Contented to vote for the measure, if it really
appeared that the crime of forgery could be pre-
vented by a milder punishment than death.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY was desirous
of stating to the House the feeling under which
he should give his vote. He did not intend to
controvert., that it must be the wish of every hu-
mane:-person to reduce the extent of capital pu-
nishment as much as possible. The Noble Mar-
quess said he 'flattered himself he had given a
sanction teethe feeling of the public on the sub-
ject, bat he was still disposed to support the-best
policy of the law. It was a satisfaction, after
hearing the 'eloquent speech of the Honour-
,Member for. Weymouth, that he was .not called
upon to investigate what sort: of Police would'
be best to secure men from the snares
of vice. That was not the object of discus-
sion. The attention of the House ought to
be narrowed to the question, whether the Bill
was, under all . the • circumstances, a humane
measure,. admissible in the sense of the Legis-lature ; or whether the adoption of it would
not be a sacrifice of sound legal proceedings to.
the philanthropic spirit which pervaded the.
-House ? He did not feel the distinction which
his -Hon. Friend had taken ; namely, that forge-
ries of .Bank.of England notes stood on diffe-
rent principle. The Bank of England notes were
never compulsory : persons were not•obliged to
take them. It certainly
_hail been convenient to
take Bank notes, but in that. 'respect they were
on the same footing -as Country. Banknotes. If
' hi 4 Hon. Friend gave, up the quail-61i Of 'forge-
ries of wills, all ether forgeries might be pu-
nished on a general 'principle. . The question
then wag- what sort of legislative measure was
most likely to prevent the crime ? 'The Noble
Marquess did not wish.to beTecorded as the ad-
versary of mitigation of •punishment in cases of
forgery, but if 'driven to draw a conclusion, it
would be to say; that whilst there was rig Our in
the administration of-the law, less forgeries were
.committed, and' when the law was, relaxed, the
crime of, forgery was increased., .Where did
the House find.the crime multiplied ? He *found
it' in the negeciable securities .br the Bank. of
England, because .the Bank .had indicted for
the minor or transportable offence.. That lenity
had made forgeries on the Rank of England,
"more frequent- than forgery of private instru-
ments.. If the Bill. passed he 'thought it would
multiply_ rather than 'depress forgeries., it hail
been said the hulks would .answer the purpose
of secondary punishment. With reSpect to that
subject, Government had net been- unmind-
ful,; but Gentlemen suppos.ei4, it, was. possible
to have the' best gaols, the best hulks,
_the
'best penitentiaries, at Short notice. .lie had.
stated,,that Government •• some tinge ago took
measures for the
.establishment of 'a • secondary.
punishment at New South Wales.., A commis
t)
slo. was on its return from Botany Bay,
WhiCh 'had gone but- with• the special' objett of
forming a secondary punishment,. which would
enable Government to send convicts for pu,
nishment, not to lead a better life than they
had • led at home. Government had 'gone op
as rapidly as could .be expected . for the ac-
complishnient of that
.object ; but it was. for the
House to consider whether any secondary pu-
nishment could -be provided 'for forgery, and
Nvhether.they would. let their feelings run away
with their understanding, by
_giving
,a• bounty
for forgery ; for transportation to , New South
\Vales was said to'be no punishinent. 'lf then
there was no secondary puniShment, it was not
the time' to take away the punishment for forgery.
He saw the crime multiplied as they relaxed the
rigour of the law, and 'the Noble Marquess did'
not think he' acted on principles less 'humane,
when he said this was not the moment to tate
away capital punishment. The best course he
could take would be to support the motion of
his Hon. Friend, which would not preclude Gen-
tlemen_frorn giving their sanction to any measure
containing clauses not so sweeping as those in the
Bill now before the House. •

Mr. WlLnEitroace lamented that many ,Gen-
tlemen were absent when the Hon. Member for
Weymouth made-his eloquent speech ; had they
heard it, the soundness of the argument would
have been almost irresistible. The argument of
his Noble 'Friend did not appear to conyey a
reason for not goirig into a Committee on the Bill.
The subject (melt to have full discussion.` The
lion. Member supportecrthe committalof the Bill.
Sir J. MA6KINTostt rose to avail himself of the
right' of reply; and expes'sed some desire to be
speaker.the last
The arq*U'es s.of LoNDONDERRY observed; that

he was,.nni aware that the Hon. and Learned
Member NliaS strictly eptitled to
_reply, as he had
not s =lett that :night.
itrYIERNEir, tlr. 13nnunitAlt, and Mr..C. W.
El severally held that the Hon. and Learned
Ali er ivas entitled by the courtesy of the
Hothe to reply..
'lllr. B.ii-nuasT expressed , some doubt :upon
the right which the Hon.and Learned Gentlemati
claimed.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH appealed to the.candotir of
the House-Whether the Right- Hon. Gentleman.
who had-just taken his seat objected to his right
to reply on fair 'principles. He had abstained
from speaking that night, because he did not
wish to take up the time of the House, but for
that attention to the "convenience of the House he
was to be deprived of his right to reply." After
the manner in which he had frequently spoken
on the subject, he considered he had a right:to
reply.; but whether he had or not was of little im-
portance hi the cause. He could have no feeling
on the point. The Hon, and Learned Member
then observed, that the speeches delivered that
night left him but little argument. He adverted
to. 'the objections made to the Bill, and con-
tended, that-the bankers and merchants, had
proved beyond a doubt that private forgeries
remained without prosecution in consequence of
the excess of punishment imposed by the "law.
He must remind the ffouse that the thirty thou-
sand petitioners who had petitioned two succes-
sive Parliaments in favour of this Bill, vere gall
of them men of some education, belonging to
various .-parties ; and being principally shop-
keepers and tradesmen, they, were the very class,
most ,exposedle‘suffer by forgery, and still more
by larceny and juries. Many amongst them
were the usual supporters of his Majesty's present
Miuisters; and consequently they could as a body
be actuated by no .:political bias. The cause of
the great reluctance to .prosecute for private for-
geries, was to be found in the description of per-
sons who usually committed forgeries upon
Bankers,. and in mercantile concerns. -They
were generally the clerks or confidential servants,
very often the relations of the parties whomthey
defrauded. The character of the opulent bankers
and merchants , of this country was, that
they shuddered • at the thought of taking
away life. He trusted that that character
would always be preserved, and that they would
always be found unable to see the starting tear,
or hear the faultering voice of persons in such a
'situation, without-compassion and pity. It often
happened that these acts were committed in. a
moment of infirmity, in consequence of ,the.in-
dulgence of some vice or passion, when -under
the influence of strong temptation, rather than
from any confirmed talents of depravitY. In
such cases, then, the severity of the punishment
provided by the law was an obstacle in the way
of public justice, and they must remove it.—
(Hear, hear !)----His object was, as well as the
-NOble Lord's; to provide a punishment for this
class of offenders, which those whom they injured
would not be prevented by humane feelings from
carrying into-effect. They would then be ready
to prosecute,' whereas at present they had the
strongest horror at doing so, because Conviclion
would be followed by. death. In fixing a
punishment for crime, they ought to 'take
the punishment of nature into considera-•
tiOn. They ought to take the . natural . and
the legal punishment tog-ether ; and. Nsiiere
the natural was the, strongest, the a legal
ought TO. be made proportionate in its ...de-
gree. He considered that solitary confinerrient
might be made a most terrible and effective-TU.
niShment for the crime. of private forgery. With
respect to secondary punishments, the best.ine-
thod.of reforming
.them would be to preveni,la
a considerable degree, the frequent occurrence
of capital punishments. Upon' the subject:Of
wills he confessed that his mind was not prepared
-for deciding :upon that-branch of the question ;
but if the Bill 'went into a Committee, he should
there be most happy to hear any suggestion to
-make an- exception for such crimes.' And he
begged here to observe, that by voting. for the
present motion no Member was to be understood
as being precluded from the choice of morving, any
amendments which' he should
.see fit, :when..in
the. Comrnittee.%—.(Hear, hear!)—There -was' the
widest-difference betwixt private forgery 'atid,the
forging .ef. Bank ;notes..: ..the: 'latter: case,
there was no private feelings in operation to pro-
ducealcluctance to prosecute 'A _public prose-
cutor was eniployed, 'who only had to consult.his
feelings of. duty- and to act upon- them afone.
And 'who. Were the forgers in these cases 1. ,It
A"
was true that 4he forgers were seldom taketr-or
known';—the titterers generally suffered 'for the
Crime. But -how different was. the case of a
forger of Bank notes, to the person who forged
privately. Instead of being- a youth who: had
fallen in the hour of infirmity, wheh surrounded
by temptation, he was a man whose very occu-
patibli was Villainy,' whose life Was spent
.in
' bringing'others to death and infamy. For these
reasons he thought the Bill would be a great
public service. It would tend to decrease
the crime of private forgery, -and it woUld
make the distinction clear between the forger
and the first utterer of the note, and those
who might be iu possession of It afterwards.
It would remove that darkness in which this
qiiestiOti Was at present so much enveloped,
as to require a person who had been almost,
'bred up' to the practice as a profession, to dis-
cover what were the merits of a case of forgery.
—The Hon. and Learned Member then compli-
mented his lion. Friend (Mr. Buxton) upon the
manner in which he bad argued the questiOn.
He (Mr. Brixton) had laid down the great prin-
ciples upon which they ought-to act, and he -(Sir
James Mackinfosh) had endeavoured to apply
thein tothe Criminal Law 'for punishing the of-
fehce.of..private forgery. If he had been at all
successful in those endeavours,it was to his Hdn.
Fliend'that the House and the. country were in 7
delited: He should haVe been much more satits-
fled if the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General
had taken thediscussicie upon the three Bills. at
'once, and not have created the necessity of another
• debate at -so advanced a period of the. Session,,
T.he ATTpItNEY,GENERAL had to complain of
the manner in which the lion. and Learned Mein-

ber had brought forward the present motion., lie
certainly did expect to have heard him open the
subject with something like a general explanation.
of the principles upon which his Bills were found-
ed. As however he had not done so, his Hon,
nd Learned Friend mast. excuse him, if, without
Meaning any reflection whatever; he stated that
he had just left the question where it was be-
fore- he touched. it. That being the case, and
considering the lateness of the hour, he should
• not enter into the merits of the Bill. He cer-
tainly did object to it, because be:considered
that before the one-pound notes were issued,
the punishment of death had been sufficient to
repress private and public forgery, and because
the punishment proposed to be substituted in its
place would not in his opinion be equal to that

purpose.
The Hotye then divided---
For th's Committee - - - 1.18
Against it - • - - - 74
!Majority - - - - -44.
When sti'augers were re-admitted to the gal-
kry, the House was in a Committee upon the
which went through pro forma; and the
Report was ordered to be received on Friday next.
Sir J. 'MACKINTOSH said, that owing to the
lateness of the hour, it would be. impossible to
praceed with the other two Bills. He should,

b.-.refore, move, that the Order of the Day for
their being committed be postponed to Friday.
Agreed to.

The remaining Orders were disposed of, and
the House•adjourned A.LTNiro

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF :co.magoms.
Merc,trii, 3';' • die Mail; 1821.
. ,
rEir.R3FIELD BOROUGH (Right of Election),--Petition
of Electors; also, of Hylton Jolliffe,- Esti, touching the Right
of Election, considered—M Members present—Parties called
in--Names of Members drawn, and the mimber Of 49 names
'being complete, the list was deliyered to the parties,- who then
withArew. , ...

Limerick City (Right of Election),—Frouse informed, that
the Committee required the Counsel for the several Parties to
' deliver in to the Clerk of the Committee, Statements in writing
• .of the Right of Election for which they respectively contended:
'That, in consequence thereof; the Counsel for the Petitioners,
`Airitli:lm Stainer and others, delivered in a Statement, as fol-
'-'lolr3 :

That the Right of voting at an Election for a Member to
sezve In Parliament for the City- of- Limerick- is vested in the
.1%-ceEolders and in the Freemen of the said City, whether resi-
ctent or non-resident therein, 'duly admitted to such Freedom
-by. the Mayor and Common Council of the said City, and
sywrn : ,

That the Mayor and
.Common Council of the said City
hare, from the earliest period, exercised a discretionary power
of admitting such persons to the freedom of the said City as
they thought proper, whether such persons were resident within
the said City and its Liberties, at the time of their admission,
Of not :

" That no person is entitled as a matter of right to be admit-
ted a freeman at large of the said City, whether claiming by
birth as the eldest son of a freeman, by marriage with the
daughter of a freeman, or by servitude under a regular appren-
ticaihip ; but the Mayor and Common Couhcil of the said City
have, in the exercise of such their discretion, frequently acquies-
ced in the Petitions of persons founding 'such their Petitions on
the above claims of birth and servitude :

" That persons admitted to their Freedom of the said City
'tinier any Naturalization Act, or under the new Rules, have
r.,6 right to vote on the Election of a Member to serve in Par-
Lament for the said City :"
Thit the Counsel for the Petitioners, Richard Bourke and
cJiers, delivered in a statement, as follows ' •
That the Right of Electionin and for the City and County
o the City of Limerick is in the Freeholders of the said County,
r,:ad in such Freemen thereof as had served apprenticeships in
Cie said City, or as were resident therein at the time of their re-
spective admissions to the freedom thereof :

7" That the eldest sons of freemen, and persons marrying the
daughters of freemen, and persona who have served regular ap-
prenticeship within the same City to freemen thereof, are of
right entitled to the freedom of the said City, and to vote at
Edectionl; therein:

" That all merchants, traders, artificers, artizans, seamen, or
otherwise skilled and exercised in any mystery, craft, or trade, or
in the working or making any manufacture, or in the art of na-
vigation, residing, inhabiting, and exercising their trade, mys-
tlry, or craft, within the said city, are of right entitled, under
the Statutes and. Rules relating to the said city, to the freedom
thereof, and to vote at elections for the same, during such their
renidence therein.

" That no person howsoever in any respect entitled, except
such as have been residing and continually inhabiting within
the said city at the time of their admission to the freedom
thereof, or have been apprentices therein, are entitled to vote at.
elections for the said city."
That upon the statement delivered by the Counsel for the
first-mentioned Petitioners, the Committee have determined,
thd the right of election, as set forth in the said statement, is
not the right of election for the said City of Limerick.
That upon the statement delivered in by the Counsel for the
last-mentioned Petitioners, the Committee have determined,
that. the right of election, as set forth in the said statement,
is rot the right of election for the said City. of Limerick :
That tire Committee have determined, that the right of elec-
tion of Members to serve in Parliament far the City and County
of the City of Limerick, is in the" Freeholders of the said County
of the said City, and m such Freemen of the said City as were
resident 4crem at the time of their admissions to their respec-
tiv. 3 fredoms.
That the eldest sons of freemeii;'and persons who have mar-
ried :the daughters of freethen, and persons who have served
Seven years apprenticeship to freeinen of the said City, are en-
titled to the freedom of the said City, and to vote at elections for
the ft

Metropolis Police Bill,—Committee on Wednesday- next.
Metropolis Roads . of Trustees of Kilburn
Rritlge ; also, of inhabitants. of Ilyde and Kingsbury;
alga, of householders residing along flit: sides of the New Road
from Edgeware Road to Tottenham Court Road ; also of inha-
Litants or Enfield ; also, of Commissioners for Paving, &c.
;3amers, Town; also, of inhabitants of .Chiswick ; also, of
Ircrnsofi also of proprietors of stage-coaches and postmasters
t.-avelling.en the road from London to Watford also, of coach-
men drwmg on the road under the superintendence of the
trustees of the Middlesex and Essex Roads, against; to lie on
the . , , . .• -• •

Court bf Chancery,—Account ordered, "of all business
which has been set down for hearing in each branch of the
Goi7t of Chancery, in every Term since the establishment of
tig of-fze of Vice-Chancellor :"

" business which has been disposed of in each branch
of tlin Inuit of Chancery, in every Term since yhe establishment
of the office 'of Vise-Chancellor; other th.an motions of ,course
and consent causes : • • • =• .

4' Of all business which remains undisposed of in each branch
of the tiourt of Chancery, stating the times. when .the earliest
unheard cases, in each class of bUsiness, were respectively set
down for hearing :"
" of all cases which stand for judgment .in. each branch of
the Court of Chancery, stating the respective tines when such
=es were beard." •

Peters&ld Borough (Right of Electioi4 ComMittee,—Parties
being returned to the Bar, the reduced List was delivered in, to
vrha the name of Lord Viscount Folkestone, the Nominee
chosen by the Counsel for the Petitioners to oppose the right
of clectign as determined by the former Committee,. and the
;lane of Mr. Tennyson, the nominee chosen by the Counsel for
the Petitioners to defend such determination, being added, the
same was called over, as follows :—Mr.. George Philips Mr.
Wilson, Sir George Cockburn, Mr. Hudson Gurney, Mr.
Wharton, Mr..deorge Richard Philips, Mr;Baillie, Mr. Chu-
loner, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Holmes, Mr. Gipps,
Mr. Synge Cooper, Lord Viscount Folkestone, Mr. Tenny-
son :—Committee sworn.

Usury Laws Repeal Bill,—Petition of Bankers of Marl-
borough, in favour, _ _

bl essat,e from the Lords,—That they have agreed to, Militia
Pay Pay (Ireland) Bill;—Timber Duties Bill;
Officea (Ireland) Bill ;—Brecon Bridges Bill ;---
Po*,i ar Gas Light- Bill ;—Stratford.upon-Avon Canal Bill,
priamut Amendment ; —Charitable Establishments Bill ;
Prison Fees (Ireland) Bill ;—Worthing Paying Bill ;—Shrews-
join, Paving Bill, with Amendments.
Proprietors of Wharfs Bill,—Petition of Merchants and
pthcrs, of London, against.

,
Insolvency (Scotland) Bill,—" to explain and extend the
oe. ration of certain Acts of the Parliament of Scotland, rela-
tive to Insolvency and Notour Bankruptcy, and for making
prOVision for the payment of Creditors in such cases," present-

T"4-41 SIJN
THE

SOLEM QUIS DICERE FALSUM AUDEAT?

LONDON,
THURSDAY, MAY 2-1, 1821.

The most recent intelligence respecting the
Greek insurgents continues to be very interesting.
It appears that all the young Greek students at
_the University of Gottingen have left that town
to return to their country. Numerous detach-
ments of Greeks are continually arriving in Mol-
davia and Walachia to join the forces of Prince
YPSILANTI, who possesses abundant supplies of
money, and pays his troops liberally. his army,
which at first amounted only to 3,000 men, was
soon increased to 36,000. At Bucharest he found
more than a thousand Greeks belonging to the
first families, who had just arrived from Vienna,
Buda, and Odessa, and immediately inlisted
under his banners. It is well known that there
are among the insurgents several European Offi-
cers of different nations ; and latterly several
soldiers belmiging to the Austrian regiments sta-
tioned on the frontiers of Transylvania have de-
serted their corps, and repaired to Walachia,
where some•of them have obtained the rank of
officers. The Pot to has placed the forces des-
tined to act against the Greeks under the com-
mand of the Pacha of BRAILA, who has been pro-
moted to the rank of Seraskier. Report ascribes
to him but a small portion of military talents.
Prince YpsrLAwrz has _addressed the following
Circular to his Eminence the Metropolitan, the Bi-
shops and the Boyars of oldaviaandWalachia

" I am convinced that you have long since been apprized of
the enterprize which has been formed for the deliverance of
Greece, and that in the two principalities of Moldavia and
Walachia a considerable number of Greeks will fly to arms to
re-enter the sacred soil of their country, and there, in conjunc-
tion with their brethren, will fight for their national rights.
These military corps, conformably- to my former proclamations,
copies of which are annexed, will treat the inhabitants of Mol-
davia and Walachia as brothers, and respect always their per-
sors and property, in proof of which I need only advert to the
good order observed during my stay in. Moldavia.- But I have
this day been surprised to. hear of the flight, without any cause
whatever, of the inhabitants of Bujen and Rimnik. The
effect which this conduct may produce throughout the country
induces me again to exhort you to remain quiet and banish all
fears, and to request you will communicate to all the inhabi-
tants and merchants that they need not be under any appre-
hension of being molested in their country.. Be assured also
that the Great Power which protects these two Principalities
will not, under any circumstances, permit the Barbarians to en-
ter them. 'With this object, his Excellency Count %Vittgen-
stein has not only received orders to advance with the
troops under his command from 'Warsaw to the fron-
tiers; but they are, at this moment, in full march. I have,
therefore, no doubt that you, who have been recently chosen to
form the ProviAiona.l Government of your country, will hasten,

like good patriots, to put an end to these disorders and this
flight, so prejudicial to the inhabitants, by publishing my Pro-
clamations. Assure your countrymen from me that they have
nothing to dread, and may, therefore, remain• quietly in their
homes ; on 'my arrival, I will prove the truth of my assertions.
But the Hellenic troops must pa:is through Walachia, and it is
abiolutely necessary that you should furnish them with pro-
Visions and quarteis on the route : besides the division which
is now marching through the country, I shall soon follow with
all the Greek army.
" Given at my Head-quarters at Roman, March 17, 1821.

" ALEXANDER YPSILANTL''

The following are the contents of Spanish Pa-
pers to the 10th inst., received this morning :
" CADIZ, ?s I.—The Stone of the Consti-
tution having been found yesterday morning dis-
figured with mud, various persons repaired to
the ' house •of the Consistary (where the Mu-
nicipality meet), renewing their clamours for the
speedy administration of justice, and petitioning
against some persons as disaffected to the Consti-
tutional system. It seems that the demand,
which they signed, being put into proper form
(formalizada), the political Chief ordered these
persons lo be- arrested and proceedings instituted.
Ile afterwards issued a Proclamation, in which
he says, that the horrible offence committed on
the night of the 29th, against the Stone of the
Constitution, had justly excited the indignation
. _
of the heroic Citizens, not that there was any
reason to fear an attempt against the system in
the midst of a people entirely constitutional, and
of a garrison which had given the first signal of
independence. " You have demanded," he says,
" the arrest of certain persons marked out as
" disaffected to the system, and with very just
" reason that of the Preacher of the Barefooted
" Friars, who dared to utter in the pulpit ex-
" pressious offensive to our Code. I have with
C‘ pleasure acceded to your wishes, together with
" the Most , Worshipful Municipality ; orders
C 4 have been given to arrest all those in the city
" (and they are now arrested), and likewise to
4C take those who are absent." He then exhorts
them to confide on him and the Municipality; to
let the law take its course, secure that the guilty
shall be punished. " You must watch over
44 the enemies of our institutions. Let each
" zealously observe the actions and !no-
" tions of those who do ' not proceed in
" the constitutional path, and present to jus-
" tice every one who shall deviate a step from
44 it.—The Constitution or Death is our motto.—
" Let everyone fly who does not love it, and is
't not at all times ready to sacrifice himself for
" it."—lie concludes by exhorting them not to
be guilty of any excess, or of any action unbe-
coming a true friend of the Constitution. The
number of persons arrested is eleven, at the
head of whom is the Bishop, Don Francisco
Xavier de Cienfuegos.
6' ALarsfaAs, APRIL 20.—The Journal of
this town, called The Bee, contains a certificate
of the Secretary of the Municipality, relating,
that on the 25th, at the invitation of the Politi-
cal Chief and the First Alcade, the Comman-
dant, the Clergyman of the parish, and the Mem-
bers of the Municipality met in the Town-house,
where they were informed that a great body of
the National Militia and of the people were
united, to solicit., the above authorities to listen to
what would be explained to them by a deputa-
tion speaking the sentiments of the people. This
deputation, composed of respectable persons, re-
presented, that the people, with the-National
Militia, guided by love to the Country and to
the Constitutional System, had conceived a dis-
trust of some persons living in the town and in
St. Roque, because their opinions were extremely
unfavourable to the Constitution. These persons
were, Lieut.-General D. Jose O'Donnell, Bri-
gadier-General Don Manuel Albugoti, the ex-
Inquisitor D. Francisco Sid, and three other per-
sons, whom they desired to- be banished , to
Ceuta. Thff also desired that a Judge of the
First Instance, an Auditor, and a Lieutenant of
Artillery should be deprived of their ofliCes.
The political chief and other authorities at-
tempted to gain time, that the clamours of the
people might abate, and the sanctity of the laws
remain inviolate, but the deputations insisted,
and after various altercations the petition was
declared to be just, and it was agreed that Gene-
ral O'Donnell and some of the others should be
placed in the convent of this town, under the
custody of the national militia ; that Albugoti
should be deprived of his command, and the Lieu-
tenant, the Judge, and the Auditor suspended.
" MADRID, MAY B.—Accounts from St. Jago
of the. 2d mention the arrest of several persons,
by order of the Political Chief, in consequence
of certain petitions. They are twenty-five in
number, twenty of them ecclesiastics belonging
for the most part to the Chapter of the, Cathedral.
They have been sent under an escort to Co-
mma. A great many prisoners are expected
from Tuy, Orense, and Vigo, said to be con-

netted with thosc of Burgos. There are many
persons of distinction among them. The number
is said to amount to 308."--( Spanish Papers,