The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-12 00:00:00

BATTLE OF NAVARIN.

Lord CARNARVON, in the absence of Lord Hollaud,
who was prevented attending the House in consequenca of
ill health, called the attention of the House to the subject
of which his Noble Friend had intended to have applied
himself. There were four motions his Noble Friend had
intended moving—two of these were more or less connected
with the relation and measures that had taken place be-
tween this country and Greece—the other two referred to
some particular views which he (Lori C.) should not bring
forward, leaving them to his Noble Friend who, he hoped,
would be able to attend on an early day, to use his discretion
in bringing them forward.; The two motions'the Noble Lord
now intended submitting to the House were merely motions
of information for additional Papers, to enable the House
to coins to a true apprehension of the policy of the
interference of this country, for he was sure that it was not
possible for one of their Lordships to come to a satisfactory
conclusion on the information before the House. The
other motion was, that tho;r Lorclah;pe rui6ht pay Cr.•
which was due to the Gallant Officer. The Noble Lord was
satisfied upon reading all the papers and information that
had been communicated to the House respecting the battle
of Navarin, that there was not half the information
afforded to enable the House to know what were the in-
structions given by the Allied Powers to their Officers,
and whether those instructions had been well or ill executed.
He thought there could be nothing so satisfactory to every
English heart, as to give to every gallant officer:the fullest
opportunity of removing any insinuations or doubts that
might exist respecting his conduct. What he should first
move for would be, a copy of the instructions given by the
combined Powers to their Officers, signed by theAmbaseadors
of the Allied Powers : afterwards he should move for all
communications, if any, of dissatisfaction relative to
the battle of Navarin, which had been received from
Sir Edward Codrington, or any person or quarter.
He could not conceive that his Majesty's Government would
have any difficulty in furnishing this information, but
were it not supplied, he could easily foresee that the
country would be left in a very awkward, embarrassing,
and unsatisfactory situation. The only points of the po-
licy of our Government on which it was possible to form a
judgment from the papers, were, in the first instance, the
right, and in the next the policy, of our interfering at ale.
On these points their Lordships had sufficient information
in the Treaty between the Allied Powers, and the possible
and contingent use of force suggested by it. He knew
that there were some persons who contended that no case,
no circumstances, could justify interference in the internal
affairs of a foreign country. On the principle of non-inter-
ference, he filt, perhaps, much less strongly than other
Noble Lords. The history of all nations, however, and
our own amongst others, teemed with examples of depar-
tures from that principle ; and, were their Lordships to
look into history, they would find no instance more strong
—none mere imperatively demanding interference--than
the civil war which had for seven years been carried on in
Greece. In the present case there were but two grounds
on which it was necessary to decide—expediency or inex-
pediency. On the first, the slightest ground was, the
question of suffering humanity. On that general ground,
perhaps, interference would not be expedient ; but seeing
those horrors continue which were disgraceful to our na-
ture—seeing them perpetrated in a portion of Europe,
amid nations which had the power of interrupting and of
terminating them, unless the principle of non-interference
were to be held sacred under any circumstances whatever,
interposition ought to take place. He would go farther.
He would maintain that even a single case made out on be-
half of suffering humanity—of insulted and perse-
cuted Christianity—would he sufficient to warrant inter-
ference.—(Hear, hear.)—The next, and the greatest
question for their Lordships' consideration, was ene of
self-interest. When it should be found that our own in-
terests were likely, directly or indirectly, to suffer, and
that danger to ourselves arose out of the distracted state of
things in Greece, he thought the expediency, the policy
of our interference, could no longer be questioned.—
(Hear.)—lt had been only within a few hours that his
Noble Friend (Lord Holland) had requested him to ad-
dress their Lordships : in the short interval that had since
elapsed lie had found it impossible to go into the case suffi-
ciently to provide himself with parallel, or (if such there
were, which he doubted) with stronger precedents—but
that there could be found many, very many, in addition to
those he had found, applicable to the present case, of in-
terference on the part of this country at the call of religion,
he had not a doubt. Let Noble Lords look to what took
place in different parts
reepii
g:rni
oEuropedof
powers
oinu
rtahnaedn 16th
)i
their
century; the
transactions of whim time, like the present contest in
Greece, bore very much a religious character. Looking
tebrarleifzkearbet
Elizabeth,
tch(no
b thereeitn‘gvleoewrniooulsd be found many instances of our in-
the reign of
subjects—
where we had afforded supplies of money and arms--and
had even invaded the territories of our Allies, landed
troops in aid of their revolted subjects at a period when
we were at profound peace with them—their Ambassa-
dors being actually still in London, and ours at their
respective. Courts.—(Hear, hear. )__He should not de-
tain their Lordships by a lengthened introduction of
the cases on which lie had already laid his hand, but
should proceed at once to enumerate them. The first
occurring during the minority of Charles IX. (of France),
three years after peace had been concluded between
England and that country, by the treaty of Cambray ; in
which it was stipulated, not only that it would not be law-
ful for any of the contracting parties to give protection to

the revolted subjects of each ether, but (we believe) that
they would mutually assist in putting down any such re-
was a case, in which the parties west
volt. Here, then,
severally and specifically bound to refrain from assisting tin
revolted subjects of each other; and yet in 1562 (that wa,
in only three years afterwards), the Yrince of Conde, being
at the head of the revolted subjects of our ally, the King o
France, Queen Elizabeth engaged, by treaty, to supply the
Huguenots with 100,000 crowns, and 6,000 infants)
soldiers, who were in consequence actually landed is
France, and remained there for several campaigns, dui
the whole of :which time we were actually at peace will
France.—(Hear.) Another inatanne occurred in 1383
when Queen Elizabeth again assisted the Huguenots, send-
ing them 500,000 crowns in money.—(Hear.) Man)
other instances could be adduced, in which Queen Eliza
beth sent supplies of money, arms, and soldiers, to the re-
volted subjects of France—a power with which this coun-
try was all the while at peace. Another case of inter-
ference occurred with respect to the Protestant Low Coun-
tries, where, as now in Greece, the revolt had its origin it
religion, the Protestants revolting Peott the dominion of
their legitimate Pritnaa ; hut no question of legitimacy ssao
comprehendesi in it, the people only fighting for religion-
freedom, as the Greeks now did. Of our interference it
that quarrel he should cite one particular instance. II:
1668 a Spanish ship, freighted with a considerable sum (a
money, was pursued by a French privateer, and took re.
fuge in an English port. Queen Elizabeth hearing that that
money was intended fee tit bake of Alva, to enable him to
carry on the War against the revolted subjects of Spain tool;
possession of it.—( Hear.) In 1583 she sent troops to the as-
sistance of the revolted (of the Low Countries), and in 1585 '
she entered into a treaty with them. Here the Noble Earl re
fetred to a manifesto published at that time, in which it
was declared that the alliance of this country with Foreign
Princes was not so much with them as with their subjects
Having issued that manifesto—she promised support to the
revolted subjects of the King of Spain ; and did send it.
notwithstanding she was botind by treaties to that Monarch.
(Hear.) These Were cases (which must, however, be al-
ready known to their Lordships) showing the policy pur-
sued by this country in different parts of Europe, in which
we supported the revolted subjects of Foreign Princes with
which we were at peace. We had gone farther, for by the
treaty to which he had just referredl tne had actually bound
ourselves to assist the revolted subjects of our ally. Since
the above, several instances had occurred of similar inter-
ference, of which we ourselves had been the victims—
others, in which we were the accomplices, in the applica
tion of this principle from motives ef policy, to the re-
volted subjects of our cwt.. a'dies. It was in Mr. Pitt's ad-
miMstration that it had been particularly exemplified. He
(Lord Carnarvon) alluded to the revolt which took place
in Holland, in 1787, which was put an end to by the ir-
ruption of the Duke of Brunswick and his gaily into Am-
sterdam, at our instance; the question being, whether the
country should remain under the government of the Stadt-
holder, or pass under that of France. Be the cause, how-
ever, what it might, he looked upon it as one of the most
successful and one of the wisest specimens of interference to
be found in the history of Europe—a lessen of interference in
putting down revolt in which this conntry had taken a part.
The broad principle cf revs-interference should, be would
admit, be tare base and the foundation of all treaties between
foreign Powers, but he would contend it ought to be
relaxed should imperious circumstances demand it. The
principles of the Holy Alliance had been uniformly exerted
—not to put down anarchy alone, its profeased object—but
to crush all attempts at ental...lishing free and liberal institu-
tions. Was that a species of interference that ought to be
permitted and applauded, while an interference with a con-
trary object was to be condemned ? If Noble Lords were
to look to the proceedings of the Holy Alliance, they would
find that they were invariably directed against the liberties
and the rights of human nattrc.. the cause of Greece was
interesting and giotiolts_interesting from our earliest re-
collection's and associations—glorious, not only on account
of her present, but of her ancient struggles for freedom.—
(Hear, hear.)—He thought he had now proved enough—
aataansis;,,,, *has ci,. pr.atice of interference on behalf
of suffering humanity was not of modern date, or an inno-
vation for which no precedent could be produced—but that
it was long known to European policy ; it only remained
to him then, therefore, to show whether or not the prin-
ciple had in the present instance been wisely applied. The
instances which he was about to refer to, in support of the
affirmation, occurred near our own shores. He did not
mean to contend that there had been a retied *hen Persia,
Greece, and the whole ef the Ottoman empire, formed
no ingredient in that which was termed the balance of
Europe; but at that time Russia also had formed
hone. Since that period, however, the increase of her
territory and population, and by her acquisitions, she
had become so important as to render it impossible for
her to be contemplated by het neighbours without anxiety.
Look, he would :lay, to the policy of Russia, her position,
and her power, and say, was it not of her single interfe-
rence in the affairs of Greece that we should be most justly
apprehensive? Let Noble Lords look at these, and then
ask themselves, whether it would not have been most
childish and puerile to suffer such a was' to exist in
Greece, and to leave to Russia alone the task of termi-
nating it. The Greek tongue was the language of a por-
tion of the inhabitants of the Russian empire—the Greek
religion existed throughout the whole of it. The religion
of the Greeks had been guaranteed to them by treaties be-
tween the Turks and Russians; and although no war be-
tween those two Powers had arisen oitt of that circum-
stance, was it in the nature of things—was it in the na-
ture of man to suppose that a war of extermination and
ruin, such as we had witnessed, should be suffered to
exist—and that Russia was to look on calmly without in-
terfering? Observing the situation of the Russian Em-
pire—its extent—its power—its connection and sympathy
with the Greeks, through the medium of their common
religion, could any man suppose that the Sovereign of
Russia would long have suffered, in his sight—in the view
of her army—and ()flier whole population, the Greek nation
to be tortured—despoiled—annihilated' But we were in
want of other documents, with a view to ascertain Whether,
having adopted the broad principle of national interference,
we had sent to our officers such instructions as would war-
rant them in acting. The foreign policy, such as that
adopted by Mr. Canning, was, he conceived, the best to do
away with that system Of Holy Alliance by which the
Greeks had been so long drilled into submission. Feeling,
therefore, that the voice of the people of England was with
him, he asked for that information which he conceived it
was the duty and the interest of the t3onernment to grant.
It was a natural eircurnatance that the Government should
be peculiarly sensitive on this subject, seeing that there was
such a strange contradiction between the instructions given
to Sir Edward Cadrington and the passage contained in
his Majesty's Speech—the dull phraseology of the Speech
from the Throne. The House had, indeed, been told by
the Noble Field Marshal, now at the head of his Majesty's
Administration, that it was the intention of the Govern-
raent to act up to the treaties that had been entered into ; but
surely the people of England knew the difference between
acting coldly up to the letter, and acting with spirit and
energy. To this Country, to France, and to Russia, we
were to look for its ratification ; but if Russia merely gave
to it a cold ratification, this country might won have to
rue the manner in which it had acted. A change, how-
ever, bad mow taken place in the Administration. The
friend of Mr. Canning was now the colleague of his bitter
Adversaries, and he could not, or'would not, detail the cir-
cumstances that had taken place. There was one Noble
Member, who was a Member of the late Administra-
tion as well as the present, and in whom he hoped the
present would find as cordial and disinterested a support as
did the last—who had lately assumed a strange character—
the character of the author of a marriage between his present
brethren and the late Mr. Canning's residuary devisee—
and who, of course, had guaranteed to that individual
that, both at home And abroad, the principles of Mr. Can-
ning should be adopted. But to combine such different
interests, would require abilities very high indeed. To
have reconciled two Ministers with principles so irrational,
and who were now sitting together in such perfect har-
mony, must have been indeed difficult. Had they, he
would ask, been bound over to keep the peace, and was
his Noble Friend their surety ? On these points the
House would look to his Noble Friend for satisfaction.—
He (Lord Carnarvon) bad supported the late Administra-
tion—the Administration of Mr. Canning—because he had
felt that it was the most remote from that Administration
which
was formed by Lord Liverpool—(Hear, ken, from
the Ministerial benches)—because he felt that if the Admi-
nistration of Mr. Canning had lasted but a little while
longer, it would have destroyed the little remnants of that
which had previously existed.—(Hear, 'hear.) It now
appeared, however, that the old creature *which had so long
lived under Lord Liverpool was again to revive L-that we
had " scotch'd the snake, not killed it." The object, in-

d
the
t
Stch‘avauthisye triumphant. He
Liver-
pool Members,,
\ytedi n
in
neleouiris
gdtieoirt get
etta
re-united.
btferlaklei
Ipt
fliatiesrehtisei
Ladfe
thepen
principlesdo
deprivedl
dn t Whig
‘ivv
heerr
again to be triumphant—if We were to have over us a suf-
ficient number of red soldiers—perhavpesrya. smtiieirieflautity,ti
trovern us--hosts few wotild be the liberal principles left
as in the country 7 Vie Were homy left td look to the Noble
Karl (Dudley) to guarantee our ealety ; and ate Were
he might
friendslo
ionki
gtiooai
hhimha se to
szsvdt
services
se
tthoae
let.
(Lord Carnarvon) was certainly most anxious to knoe,
the nature of the guarantee, because be was anxious to
know the colour Of he LtUre rtcepeete of the country._
He was of opinion that many of the Noble Lomele who had
:aid certain things last Session had wished they hao tat
them unsaid. He did not wish to know why the Noble
Viscount (Gederich) bad resigned his most important
nice—whether his communication was oral or by letter,
or merely contained in postscript. He trusted, neverthe-
less, that the Noble Lord would explain to the House, con-
duct which he *at, no doubt, well able to defend. Ile
knew that Noble Viscount's character well, and respected
it highly, and was sure that what he had done was dime
with a view to the interest and welfare of his country—
and he hoped he would explain the grounds on which he
now stood. Having said se much, and feeling that he
(Lord Carnarvon) had been greatly indulged by the House,
he would now more for What ht did not think could be
refused. He would move, that " an humble addtess be
presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty be gra-
ciously pleased to direct that copies of all instructions
agreed to by the Ambassadors of the three Allied Powers,
and transmitted lo the Admirals of the Combined Fleets of
France. Russia. and England, up to ifd I.,)th October,
1827, be laid upon the table of the House." Also, "That
there he laid upon the table of the House, copies of all
despatches received from Sir Edward Codrington, or from
any other source, relative to the recent affair at Navarin.'
The Noble Lord (Careeareoo) observed that the general re-
ports described the conduct of the Oallaet Admiral, and
the officers employed under him, as being in the highest
degree honourable to the character of this country. With
reference, therefore, to the service to which he belonged, as
well as to his own reputation, those papers ought in justice
to be produced, and it would be difficult to say on what
ground they could be refused.
The Earl of DUDLEY said, it is by no means my in-
tention to follow the Noble Earl thrdtigh all the various
topics to which be has adverted in the course of his speech,
and to which he presumed, somewhat too hastily,
that I should think it right to reply. What I have t,
say will chiefly be confined to the objections I feel—
and which objections my Noble Friend has already,
in a great keret, atititifated-e."-te the production of
the papers for which be moves. My Noble Prienit
states, as a reason for complying with his motion (and if it
existed at all, the reason would be a strong one), that it r•
necessary, for the vindication of the character of the Gal-
lant Admiral who corninanded at the battle of Navarin,
and of the officers who served under him, My answer to
that is—tltt it has riot ; that Sir Edward
Codrington does not stand in need of vindication. lie was
engaged in a most important service, and he has the high
reward of a meritorious discharge of his duties ; therefore,
as far as regards his Sovereign and the Government, he
stands in need of no vindication. If, indeed, the conduct
of Adthiral Catitigicin has Feed teiticited by those wit,
do not possess sufficient means of information to arrive at
a just conclusion, surely, as Government is no party to
the attack, it ought not to be celled upon to make
superfluous communications, and to produce papers on
many political accounts inexpedient. The instructions
which my Noble Vrietid wishes to obtain would require
other documents to make them intelligible, and these uthet
documents perhaps would require explanation from other
sets of despatches to or from the Allied Ministers at
Constantinople. Thus there would be no end to the
illustrations required of a yet unfinished negociation.—
(Hear.)—The indulgence we ask in withholding the do-
eumente for st tiros is rit unusttal; it has been often
granted to preceding Governments; and When not even an
opinion has yet been pronounced, it is surely too much to
interfere with the discretion of the Crown. But in this
instance we have not only to exercise a discretion for
ourselves, but for our Allies ; and even if we were willing
to betray our own, we have no right to betray their confe
dence.—(Heat, hear.)—lf it be time pleasure of the House
to take the subject out of the hands of Government—if it
be its pleasure to disclose state secrets to all persons
thoughout Europe most disposed to counteract the views
of the Allies, it will act upon its own discretion, and
take it out of the hands of Ministers; bet I am sure
that your Lordships etc tact etiee, too just, and too well
acquainted with the nature of our Constitution, to take
any such course. If you think the present advisers of
the Crown, from incapacity or erroneous principles, unfit
to conduct the affairs of the country, even then the proper
course would not be to expose the secrets of his Majeste,
and violate the confidence of his Allies, hut at once to de-
' dare your tpinion of their incompetence, Some of the
prerogatives of the Crown are looked upon as matters
inure of grace and ornament than of substance, but in the
choice of its servants it has never been disputed, and all
Parliament can do is humbly to represent that it cannot
longer confide in them. If your Lordships are of opi-
nion that we are not to be trusted, do not insist that
AVO shall divulge what we feel hound not to disclose,
but ask the King at once to remove us from situa-
tions we are incompetent to fill. Not for our sakes
but for the sake of the country and the public service,
let the old constitutional course be pursued. It is
very true, that a very small portion only of the papers
in the hands of Ministers have been meat public—the
great mass yet remains in the office of the Secretary of
State ; and I contend, that in the present state of the ne-
gociation there it ought to remain. What I have already
said contains the whole of my reasons for resisting; the mo-
tion of my Noble Friend ; and as long as the Executiv'
Goveroment reMaine, It nunt exercise the discretion u
which 1 have referred. There is but one other point in
my Noble Friend's speech which I think it necessary to
notice ; for although I shall not go into it as extensively as
my Noble Friend perhaps wishes, I cannot pass it over in
silence. My Noble Friend talked as if he thought that
between persons who have lately came into office and those
who have remained there, either on one side or on the
other, there must hare been some sacrifice of principle m
end he called Upon me to state what stipulation existed be-
tween myself, for instance, and the Noble Duke who has
been lately raised by his Majesty to the head of the Go-
vernment. Stipulations,- my Lords as between any parties
(and if they suspected each other, they would be totally
unfit to act together in virtue of any stipulation that could
be devised)e-estipulatiOne, I repeat it, there are none—
(Hear, hear.)--But if the Noble Lord means to ask whe-
ther there exists between the humblest individual in the
Government and the highest a species of understanding on
all points of the great system of policy which regulates the
affairs of this country, I answer as decidedly yes---(Hear.
hear.)—As to the question more immediately before the
House, I shotild hate thought that what was stated by my
Noble friend on the first night of the Session would have
been sufficient. According to my recollection, my Noble
Friend then said that it was the design of Government that
the Treaty of the 6th July should be executed faithfully.
I never supposed that my Noble Friend was a man to keep
a promise merely to the letter, and not to the spirit—
(Hear, hear.).—and What I underttand is, abet this Treaty,
as far as depends upon us, will be fulfilled is ite spirit. The
object of that Treaty, according to my estimate of it is the
pacification of Greece; and I hold it to be the duty of theßri-
tish Government to fulfil it in its spirit—a spirit, however, of
peace and conciliation, that spirit in Which it was origtiv3l,l
flamed. I know of no falling off—of no shrinking from
accomplishment of the purpose of that Treaty in the GovearrPt
ment of which I have at present the honour to far
ap
that line of conduce
The mode of carrying the Treaty into effect
mu: dopers.com
eouFldri.ehnativec:lisr4-uupeodn.
rot
upon circumstances varying from day to
day ;dnno linePtv •
settlement can be come to upon that point, acrd
la'
5•
precisely chalked out by the makers of the in
the mode o
re-
peat that I have no reason to believe that, .ey falling off on thi
fulfilling the Treaty', there will be a •
part of the present Government from
khenforward to the time when, if I
which the preceding Goverainnyle:b_w;
have endeavoured to express myself in a s.atisfactory naannet
on these points ; but
to go into the whole policy of Government with regard Cu
hfill the situation I now unworthily hold, i
stillG r e ece,
continuea l although ot go
may be necessary for me
..to go into the history of these lont
and complicated transactions, it is not because, when that
period arrives, I have any fear that I shall be able to explait
and vindicate our measur es, that I do not enter into then
at the present moment. Whenever the proper time shat
come, I shall not shrink tom the discharge of my duty in

the best possible manner I can ; but I hope I have no'
said enough to convince all who look at this proposition
with the eyes of Legislators and Stateernen, that at the pre-
terit moment, the production of the papers would be highly
inexpediett. Hereafter I shall be willing to give all the
papers that can be required to elucidate the subject, and to
shew that Ministers have acted upon principles of the
soundest puliey.—(Hear.)
Lord GODERICH.—If any excuse were necessary for
troubling your Lordships on the present occasion. I trust
I shall find it in the speech of the Noble Earl who com-
menced this discoseion. The Noble Earl alluded, net,
perhaps, quite regulaeiy, but iu a way of which I have
no right to complain, to some circumstances which led to
the change in his Majesty's Councils and I ewe it to my
own heatictsr, to your Lordships, and to the country (foe
even in respect to an individual as humble -at myself, 1
may, perhaps, be permitted to say so,) to state thegrounds
upon which I acted, and to explain the eircum3tancess
which occasioned the change of Goeernment. I feel that,.
in undertaking this duty I have to claim your Lordships"
indulgence, and to task your patience with thetcletail of
some personal matters. Ido so most reluctantly, I can
assure you, when I remember that I must withdraw your
attention from the subject. before you, much more in-
teresting ft,' your Lordships, end far more impatient
to the country, *ton any thing that relates to myself --
(Hear, hear, hear.) The immediate cause which led
to the change of Government- was the existence of an irre-
concileable difference of opinion rpon a subject of the-
(fee-rest importance, between two indiv•idasale, Members of
that Government, holding situations of the highest dis-
tinction in the acireinietration of public affaireessea(Cloiers
from the Marquis of Lanedowne.) My Noble Friend ma-
nifestly knows to what I allude; end I am sure I can ap-
peal to him with confidence to supper'; the allegation I note
make.--(Hear, hear.) Although, perhaps, it does not
distinctly belong to the part of the subject to white; I airs
now adverting, this I will say, as regards nay friend doe
Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), with whom my official con-
aection was so recent, that 1 never had to deal with a man
whose character stood higher for honour, integrfSv, corn '
deration, conciliation, anti fair dealing.-..(Cheers.) I ant
almost ashamed of wing whatel think of kites in his pre,
eence ; but what I state is due to him, and as it is in 4
manner extorted from me, that must be xey apology. Ire
the course of the last Session but one, it was announced is
• the other House of Parliament, that it was the intention of
Government to propose in last Seesism the appoiotmeet
a Committee of Finance. That was a measure which had
attracted much of my consideration, and Down wirier: I -
had determined, in the discharge of these duties which
fell to my lot in the other House. I had me de
ups
my mind that it was a measure which ought to be sub-
mitted first to my colleagues, and then to the Legiss'.ae
cure.—(Hear.) It is not worth while, perhaps, to state
what induced me to think that there were circumstances
in the finances of the country, which rendered desirable
such an investigation. I did think- it desirable in itself;
end I thought, besides, that the inquiry ought to be pure
auesi sth an holiest and zealous determination to render it
hear.)—lt would have been nay duty, in
lor of the ExchequerCO
(1 ant aoluding now to what occurred
concert with my Right Honourable Friend, then Chancel-
after I myself was moat unworthily and, I ant not the least
ashamed to say, most unfortunately nt Some reap ecte, ap-
pointed to succeed the individual N; 1;9 was last year at the
head of the Government), to submit to any Colleagues, at
the earliest convenient moment, that view of tile finances
which it would be our business to bring under the conside-
ration of Parliament. Undoubtedly one of the moat im-
portant subjects that coold occupy our attention would
have been the state of the finances of the country ; anus' of
course, connected with thesis the Committee then intendlod
to he appointed, and the mode in which that Coiornittett
was to be fanned. When, however, the time arrived at
which Parliament was assembled—the month of Novetre-
' ber—there were many circumstances connected wide
our relations With Foreign Powers, which rentlete&
it absolutely impossible that I should then he pre-
fmred to submit to my Colleagues any detinite or sa-
tisfactory view of that subject. True it is the state
of Portugal was becoming more anal more settled ;
there was eatery reason to believe that the Government cc
Lisbon would soon assume a form satisfactory to every
well-wisher both to this country and to that, and filet the
rime was not far distant when it would be competent tie
the British Government to withdraw its troops from the
stations they occupied on the blames of the Tegue. Still ie
was a matter of uncertainty how early that deeiroble object
could be attained; and, above all, it was a matte" Of un-
certainty how soon tile relations between this count'!" and
the Ottoman Porte might be brought to an isaue. .I:lrl4C6'
it was impossible for use to state of eiplain what might be
the extent of the demands on our revenue'; and the main-
tenance of reduction of our establishments most of course
depend very much upon our external relations. Such being
the case, the Whole question of finance could not be brought.'
I mfore Parliament, and for these reasons the propriety of
Appointing a Committee was riot submitted to the Eloise
of Commons n that the subject was not out of our mini.,
may be easily supposed. In the course of that friendly and
official intercourse which necessarily takes place between
tlembers of Government not suspicious nor jealous of cads
other (I saw no symptoms of suspicion or jealousy, and I
am sure the Noble Marquis trill confirm nee its; this
opinion)—(cheers from the Marquis of Lansrlowne)—it
was intimated by a Member of the Cabinet, that, in his
.pinion, it would be a vent desirable thing there were
placed in the Chair of the Committee an individual in the
other House, whotis ha considered eminently qualified.—
With regard to the individual whose name was sugewterO
to me, I will say this--I have keown him long, anti have
a very sincere regard for him. I kuore him to be
man of the highest honour and of the moat incorrusa-
' tible integrity. 1 know him to be a man apt for business,
atplipetiointtlailaetnlt
oahre
and conversant with all those points which woeld ne--
c,eesarily conic wider the view of the Comniittee cif Fie
the
t.o m individual;enla cabs
casual
at asan
and incidental
cmi
daetnttetril
n wasni2, Ihrdoiudosnhott regularly
..e
have felt a(nCyhepeerss.otallotbTe?tliornoPs°a7ii)enlea,
Oefore
.the Government, and as his name wee only mentioned
• that I was called upon to express any other opinion, than this .•
—that that being a question especially within the psovince
of the House of Conantoes, I should entirely approve of the
considerate decision of those members of the Cabinet who be-
longed to that branch of the Legislature. Such was the course-
took—it was not taken in any regular or official way,
but under those circumstances simply as a matter of Call,
sersation. It did, however, happen, without my being
(ware at the time such a step had been adopted, that a
communication on the subject had beers made, though not
with a vie .v in any degree to pledge the Government to
the individual in question, for the purpose of aseertainine-
whether, if Ministers should feel disposed to recommend
ids nomination as Chairman of the Committee, he would.
endertake the duty ? That communication, I beg to say
again, was certainly made without my knowledge ; it wets
also made without the knowledge of the member of the:
Government who, from his situation, must necessarily bet
materially interested in all matters relating to that subject;
I mean, that the communication had been made with-
out the immediate knowledge of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. But it was not made at all as a
point that was settled, and it was not made in a man.,
tier to pledge the Government, or to hind it in an;'
way, at least as I understood afterwards-.-bad, any. objection
_a to pet-east in the •
been made, it was not intended)
pointment. When I learnt that the communication had
been made, the result of which to myself was personally
nothinz, but satisfactory from the opinioni I entertained of
the individuals, the first
question la!eed was, whether there
had been any previous comma tniication with the Chancellor
of the Exchequer ? / Informed that there had not
been any. I lamented that—l could not bet lament it, andl
thought it an oversight. It seemed to me an unfortunate
'
circumstance that any thing should have passed upon the
subject beoonddurown immediate circle. I begged that
no time shnul he lost. n utting stand Right Hon. Friend ire
of what. had been •"•
possession said, in explaining to hint.
the wheie of the circumstances. This was done by my
Hight Hon. riend he Secretry of Sate for the Colonee.
He explainedF to thet Cfiancellora of thct Exchequer fully all
that had occurred
upon the subject. No objection woo
eiade by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—no cffence was
taken by
him at the time, as far as I have heard, to any
hang that had been done. It did, however, so happen, that
the next day—after he had had the subject under his con-
iideration—he found that there were very strong objec..
tions to the proposed appointment which had been so
oibmitterl to him. He stated those objections to nee ; but
I understood them to refer much more to the fact, that no
orevious communication had been had with him, than to
the individual who had been named, and to whew ap-
'ointment he could not accede. Explanations followed be-
oveen the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary
if State fur the Colonies, and various letters passed b oween
hem. I certainly considered those explanations perfectly
satisfactory ; and so, I have every reason to believe, did
' the Secretary of State fur the Colonies. He was so en-
tirely convinced that he had removed the objections of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he never communicated
to me the correspondence that had passed between the
..3hancellor of the Exchequer and the Right Hon. Gentle-
um, who originally suggested the name of the individual
inalified to be Chairman of the Committee. I therefore
ainceived that the explanation had been perfectly satu.tae.-
tory. There might he differences of opinion as to the pre-
,iriety of what had been done; difficulties were to be aur-

mounted, and objections unquestionably might be made ;
but I had no ;ten to believe that there was any such dif-
• ference of Opinion as would leave , any party concerned to
conoeire that if that appointment were persisted in, it would
be iv:apes/Able for the-individual objecting to remaiet longer
Menaber of Government. All this, the douse will
,bear in mind, took place between the end of Tvovemberand
• the beginning of December ; and en the-22d December 1
, received a letter.frorn the Chanqatoe of the Exchequer, in
which he first of all stated to Me his objection to the ap-
pointment proposed, as a -rnatter of foam He also men-
' tamed the "general ground., of e, public nature, net which
• he Mated' his resistance to the nomination that had been
'Wade ; and he concluded his letter by obeerving, that "un-
der these eircurastancei, and feeling these objections so
strongly upon principle, he felt it his duty to place his of-
•
'fide at insdisposal,; fit should be any convenience to. Me
toapeoint any other person in his stead." The conclu-
eion I drew certainly front that letter was, Itat.iny.Right
Honourable Friend tendered the rerignation of his place
if the proposed- nomination toot -place. It was utterly
imeossible not Co see that taat was the obvious- meaning
,of the t,omuitinicatiens I felt -it my duty sq to consider''
it. In answer to• my Right Honourable Friend, I slat-
- - ed that he had 'greatly misunderstood the sham T had
its the' previous discussion, which he called a negocia-
• , Iron. I explained to him in teriting;as I have now done
to your Lordships, how this misapprehension had arisen.
assured him there was no- ground for saying that any
negociation had teen 'settled and concluded without his-ap-
probation fol., In-fact, I was not aware of it till it was
passed. • I told him it was a great mistake on his part to
regreose that any cage had; in ray opinion, occurred, in
Na-nieh it would be convenient'for me that he should quit •office ; and that, at all events, Ltrusted that he would come
to no final decision until the 'satiate matter was fully and
fairly considered. I felt it my duty to transmit copies of
- these two letters to my Right. Hon. Friend the Secretary of • State, as he was alluded to in letter from the Chancellor.
of the Exchequer. I will not enter into a long- detail, which
would be tedious to }'our Lordships. The result was, that
while, cm the one hand, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he was pressed in the strongest manner, not to risk
that consistency which is the confirmation of the Govern-
ment, and though the most earnest endeavenrs were made.
to satisfy him that there was no sufficient reason for theob-
jections he felt to the proposed nomination, always referred
to his first letter, which involved Iris resighatiOn, as the neces-
sary consequence of that.appointmente on the other hand,
the Secretary of State distinctly and unequivocally stated, not
only in conversation, but, in writing; that he felt his own
laonourand character to be so involved in tli maintenance of '
that nomination, • that it was utterly itripeieible that he
could acquiesie in any change. The disaa reement, then,
my Lords, amounted to thiethat there vas an irrecone
cileable difference of opinion between twa ndiViduals, hold-
ing. two of the, most important and efficient offices in the
State, on a question of vital impottance to the proper con-
duet ofthe affairs of the kingdom. • This was no fault of
'mine.: I did not-raiee the difficulty.- I had` no wish, God
knows, thatthe•Government should not goon. I had no
JJJ
deal,7,n, such as the Noble Earl (Carnarvon) seemed
'amen
:pute. to me, of shaking off a part 'of: thee. 'deem.
t. I
bopel I am above such trickeea_
e as taelka lie accessary to - • that drsign.—(Hear.).—l am incapable of being a party to
proceedings of soeLnis6,i-ellatantet.--.4The.Earl of Carnet-
- von, ave soterething 'across the Hotise to 'the
Noble believe
Noble Earl did not iee•putedhia to
roe, I know, itr fxprest terms, but his language seemed
ituply it....alXheerte)---In whit t'auatitna was I? There
'was. an irreconcileable diffiretree between ttyo Of my Col-
leogues, oe uld not bring them together. I could not
•, ;Mate either of them lo Vary, his resolution. What was
outs' ? I tepresented to his Majesty the situation in
which the Government WAS placed. I concealed' nothing.
111 had, I should 'have' been 'guilty of treeichery to, the
King and to the eotinfry, and a ehoidda have compromised
my awn honour and that of fifi Celfeagues. I, thtiiglit
it mee duty,• frankly and without reserve, to lay before the
Kiater the state in which, ciatitinstances had placed
%Le Goeeeninent of which I had the ahintoor of tieing
at the head. His' Majesty was censtitutianally entitled to
'determine, under these eireninstateei; what was fit ao he
done with a view-to the promotion of the intereits'of the'
seeantry. • 114 Majesty decided' cn sending a conimunicaa
• eien to the-Noble Duke, anllfearfsed to hold the situation.
en which I had.-the honour to be placed. It is not Mafia
supposed that any man.could lituatiou without
mixed regrets. • I avow that t felt them. I balie'Seevetf
• my Kim; and country' for eighteen yealasaie office, and I
am not ashamed teii ran•-a-a do not think 't'show any effron-
tery when I say; That while I filled the 'different Officea'inaa
trueteciao me, though the .pressure of the dirties in some
ivarances was exceedingly Severe, those duties were not ill
thecharged.—(Hear; With respect to the situ-alai/
- last held, it was -One I!rnever.eoveted. I 'never stirred a reep to obtain ice., because, alaugh I en! not ,destitute of
7,ennest arniatieneedaleaaaneitaaiiiVieef-pawerA4.-pronifit tug kr
Seek for hi
seek
c-tecl Mr.:---Cantii-t3:6-L6lAtllak,l was in a situation in which
it weis impossibln-OleruV tge office—not that I cold -note
hut he aeoeible 6-r-fr.r
tWitle9Prahl.a..disaia_ futtweetittir
tiasan and the haMblelipiikr. par tiche edilreew*H Awn-. for
ships. a He- was not trienjliocnitoe," infer-41,
oouree with' V7as 464q4:134-1 4a4 4te greats,
admiration of his talente'lltineist own that lereseriteniteti
calumny • lieapsd-ii4-liipiCa acre ceuel and unsparifila'
stvle.--(ldeate heaia),-A4 ego ,des
Paself (112411-
heel -to be hi 3 succeisl;r; it, as, an idle, absurdity, which neveiventered my iineginatian. But I tied 4t that time
no just reason tor avoidieg the responsibility thrown on
and I endertoori the tak conducting :the King's
a
tvhtctr I"
ha ve •retited .frain that elevad',Pi...st; Ihave aecuivd
as re rids iny petsonel interest er adeantage, nothing a'
but;-a9 'recants my; honour and ebei•acter, everything..
•:• hilt I have the proud conseipirepess of having always done
my duty to the best of na ability, I feel hat my hohniei
end charactaaare ttraissairafire;--r,Flcar, hear. )-_I can truly
say, that,. although- ILam -iio- longer clothed with the'"it-,
tribute' of offic6;l-FiTice-,1 shall. uevert cease to feel ari-arz
dent.aiixietyateprotaniteatial eiPliOlelVe-hienour and
dig-
eity of -the-Crown; -and tim 15_ lea;a:* and freedom of the'
people"-(Hear," heareaelia‘iniVaiae an independent Peer,- sower to staid'.
I..tUtalaha4a, htimbraa'part in that
et eat and .noldeduty—faraaSatat'lit'le-aer l'eielatineaftiraa
his great and noble country.); aaid, pelforming that data►
I hope to, he as little-tniayeil by liar:aortal' emisidefitlons as I
wat.when in the inotte act iee and ostensible* situation:-in
= it was lately., my' honour' to - he- placed' a 'arid I will
add, that if .eho'measeiree of the present Government he
founded on mineiplee of liberality; justice, and 'discretion,'
:that .Governmente I promise, shall hive - %tat rest wishes
for. its suecesa ; -for We live, mu Lords, in tin-tea-in which
(permutes end 'names" are -nothing; hut princialea and
ineasuree every thiteg—(Chders:)alt a has. 'been- very
paiufeal to.me ramakeethisexttitentent at all, and I was
the less swilling to obtrude it upoiti.Your- Lordships this
evening, as it has-e 0 very close reference to the topics bee'
hinging. to the a motion befog the - House. On
_that mo-
tion I- twill, with Tour ,Lordships' permission; now.make
nut
.9asereetiee., -The Noble- Seetetaty-or State has in-
the House,- that .lie. feel,--it ineenitietent with his
,duty sent to "the production • sda the -paper!, ; and 42
utvt 1to
am perfectly-'satisfied. With ..-thee-eaeone 6e aa, as.
'. il '-
u leith-hitn; that would-he highly int-I
11411tritroper io1; '
hazard the peaceful' ternaination .• of the question .
now pending -in th!..e. East of Europe, by thiowing the,.
slightest eapediatent.ern the ivaarTof- the asanatment of that
question. I tam tonceive, that-if-these papers were;
heii contentS,vrould or Might`
easily
r°4044, the disclosure of. t
eave a tendeney toe. -
lefeat the g reat object which .the
have 111 vietv. I- for one -am entirely. satisfied 'with the
emmaneas otateeee atiedene taken
,:by% the' Neble,-.....5eee.t. ,tary,)
of State.
much Ilisposied .to 'com.
a,- with :him,:
that this is not the
most expedient tinrO' I
to-enter ntb an
explanation of ta,,,g, e, of the itiStiee and policy of the
Treaty of July,.:
.Enet,ntaY have ]rushed some
or his arguments, perha too far, but all the cases he
cited bore direteue.tel tal;
can he rupee: eleeete Q
interference,
uestion. Nothing! I contend;
ahatilaalaaaaaa the principles of' that.
hegiP-604eavith those set forth in the, Pr4toesal,
of St. Petersborglt.,:s,:lie
doubt- that we hid just
grounds of interferaneeetesa,
regarded the state .of
as regale. .•
Europe gerwatiltaill(kavhat as likely to haPPeni.be
two Powenseitatuediatelv engaged in the e"-
ttveen the
tests, It laxat.iferflObvhanaiee two or. three years -ago,
that the state!nte leauld, ng froin the side between ~
Turkey and Gretc. e syas Kith; that if. suff ,
ce,_.llVOladis4t.no proceed eteth. to prot 1
withelit4gterfetel. lilt period; produce
d couittsioniiimsgu.° u°l.° cput
strifee.
5....7,7 there it'll) diaircr laid
down in the r.ote01)1, al Tte4y is
as , n had male"
foued nded ? And I will
li.e.l.llad no coiriinunit,naLl:lll,--en-
toanetify this, tllfi'errnee•
place? Had out the visas Great, Britain, Itteisia,7annitre
the:Porte Wag not the
France been madeelenowa• re.
angers
Porte given to understand the :deeper ate d
she exPth4ltereelfeif.she did nothing
to settle the to whit,
question.
—(Hear. )—A matelial difference had, taken place, and the
stronger, ceps_
reasons that, urged -Us to interfere ,eeca .
cially as English commerce was expose) to gqe. vq,_u!_j_nJeu.rYa
and- suffered from piracy is an indefinite atuottne
tat.:
o",nti:
as loss of life, from the horrible barbarities too I I
and disgusting to be described. We. had
'
a cage ° direct,
which gave us a right to demand redress, and' If we
were not successful by our remonstrancesewe had a right to
the application of ferce.--(Hear.)—These are facts ofeoni-1
mon notoriety ; they are known to the whole world, and r
them alone I ate prepared to maintain the justice and nere.

. 10
.ii
iik,s.ll,t ph i
io fiutahi
eesttrye.
has tays.
i,,e_etnhaaV
pe talrtnydoubt
tolif
mshooswt Inc
ogns,
_at is fa c -
Itleteleffteorict,ly,an,dthlavtitnhotphrii riciopsltepoefr.fetethe
glaono•doffaniatthio. ns
Irtepiudiated
The course which has been pursued. The evils pressed
upon us with forte, and no men possessing in the least
degree the' foresight of statesmen; could keep out of view
the more serious consequences that would have followed.
I care not when. the "discussion may come.) Whether now or
at any future day.
I Miele and believe the justice of the
Treaty will he maintained ;• and if my old. friends, now In
office, actingi?n the same principles, bring the question to
a successful issue, they will have the unqualified thanks
and approbation of their country, in which I shall be glad
'heartily to participate.
The Earl of CARNARVON, in explanation, said it.
. .
seemed 80!!!'..! Words that had fallen from him had been under-
stood by the Noble Viscount as conveying an insinuation
or suspicion against his political integrity. If a, single
word had proceeded from him (the Earl of tdrnaryon)
'which could bear 'stieli. an itirerpretzition, he disclaimed it.
No Such sentiment" entered his mind. Nobody, he
was sure, could think of imputing such conduct to the
Noble Visttrunt." '''lf;-"indeed, there ivaa"any person whom.
lie Would select, whose character repelled -such an impute-tion, if it had been Made, it was that of the Noble Viseoint.
The Earl of ELDON rose to declare, that he never
would hear it said by any autliolity whatever to that House,
that the measures of the GOvernment of which he was a
member, relative to the East, including the Protocol signed
by the Noble Duke at the head of the present Government
were measures to be considered as founded on the large
principles, with respect to the law of nations, as the Treaty
of the 6th of July. He would not follow the Noble Earl
through the speech with whitii.' lie had opened the motion,
and in which he had discussed the difficulties of the suli-
jeet, both as regarded the measure of the Protocol, and the
measure of the Treaty, for this reason, that' the very Prin-,
Secretary on which the Noble Seerete of State had proposed.
to negative the motion, was one whirl: prevented it
beingfrom usefully or beneficially 'considered 'at that,
time. The Noble Earl (CaitiaVon), while_ lie called for
the information which be deemed necessary to a full and
proper diveirmion of the question, went, nevertheless,. into
an ample examination of the prOpriety and justice of those
measures,though the object of that speech was to call for
information, to enable the House to judge that very ques-
tion ; lie himself was s 6 anxious to ktio* what these in-
strtietions were, that he was reatained ilom supporting the
motion only by the principle- to which he had alluded.—
Not for my life,. said the Noble Earl,' can I understand.
what instructions could heve been given to the Admiral,
to preverit'all Collision between the belligerents, and yet to.
Commit no act of hostility.-_(Hear, hear.)—l know the
Noble Earl (Dudley) is a finished scholar, an able man,
and, I understand, an excellent writer of a despatch ; but I.
should be glad if he would tell us how the three Admirals,
and God knoWs how ttiativ commanders of frigates and
,1
smaller• Vessels, Vetil to go into the Bay of Navarin, and
fake possessten of it, and yet avoid all act of hostility ?
The very. entrance of the Allied Fleet necessarily led, I
' tilit_tlt, to hOstilities. How, then, could the Admirals be
' acting on their instructions, only to, prevent the collision
of the belligerents, and commit no hostility themselves ?___
I am an- old Englishman myself, and I have no hesita-.
.tion -in- Saying; that, if a Turkish fleet, or a French
fleet, "dame up to take possession of in English har-
bour, while an English fleet was lying there, as the Eng
1 lish; Russian; and French fleets did at the Bay of Navariii,
and if the English Admiral did not fight them, when they
came there, he would never deserve to be employed again
(hear, hear. )—I -know I shall be called a 'pettifogger, if I
allude to the law, and a pettifogger I have the honour to be
—(a laugh) ; but I will say, that the law, which generally
speaks the language of common sense, leads me to the same
1 conclusion. 'lf one man hold up his fist in the face of
another, that was an assault, though no hlOw was struck.
It was what'no Englishman with an English heart in his
1 bosom would suffer. When the question came under the
Vconsideration of.their Lordships, he pledged himself to
prove that the Treaty was indefensible by the Law of Na-
iler*f-b if had ' any notion of What the Law of Nations
was ,- as applied to such a subject. If the Treaty was to be
enforced, the Honse cMild-Uothave the menus of discussinga
! its piinciple until • tranquillitywas"finally restored in the
' -East. The Noble Earl (Carnarvon) had spoken of gueran-
teei. .If the Noble Seeretary would read the Treaty again,
be would find that the only guarantees stipulated there ate
from these who chose to give them.—(A• laugh. )—lt had.
(
been represented too, as something very wrong; to give
public explanations i hut surely if it was not wrong in that
House, why was it so at an election
The Mike of WELLINGTON—I do not rise for the pur-
pose of discussing the propriety of the Protocol so often re-.
ferred to in thexiMise of the present discussion. " sOMe
time or other it will be brought regularly and- fully before
o - -or= LOtelahipi, and 'when it does it will be-the duty of this
House to discuss, and pronounce upon the measure of which
that document formed the basis: At present it only b-
r r-eornesnecessary for me to say, thatit is myfirin intention
to-carry that Protocol, and-the subseqttent Treaty—that of
Slily, 'lB'7, into the fullest effect both in spirit and letter.
I. repeat, that my decided object shall be to- earry that Treaty,;
s
.fowli edtlidi tnronte,caras
ray. NwoilithleiaLcitrsdelhaf eanoyht;earpyeeedifi, teha
tiato
Ittheo:_fPir4O.,
I,,it
perf
Thens-ty which AS objects Were to he accoMPliihed, or its
1
iirOvitions carried into .effeat. 'lint, is -I have already
said,:i Some time or other the Protocol Will come under
VOur ' Lordships'. consideration;-
_When it will fully Tap.
'pear, that though no measures ' Of coercion were
rtistitketly spoken' of -with referenee to-the Porte, 'that
itichirieatis-4 allude to such dipioniatic means-:.were there'
• adverted 10,-as by the High Contracting Parties were con-:
'-sidered at the time best calculated to effect the object they'
• sincerely aimed at. . They were not the sanie ' Means as
those set forth by the Treaty, but they were snot as it was
then hoped would induce' the Porte "to adopt that course!
Whichthe peace of Europe required. Let me not be un-
derstood as comparing the two MeaSures—l hive no such.
`object—l merely desire now; once' for all, explicitlyto
State my intention of carrying into effect, in spirit as well
as in letter, the measure to which hie Majesty-is a party?.,
without feeling- called iipon to' enter into any detailed re,
. .
ply to the -speech -of -the- Noble Lord who 'has made the,,
present motion, though I must heg to express- my total
- iasent.fronf- the-greater part-of it - Much- has:been said,
-"titre and-elsewhere at various times on the Subjeet of inter, tt
.
Terence on the part of one State in the internal affairs of an
ether, .but_l think it will be-admitted, that here-a case of
the very highest necessity arose. In making that as-
sertioN however, I think it right to say, that -ray
, Opinion' is, that non-interference is the rule, and inter-
ference the exception. That prineiple is the safe guide for
t_ o_ll-..tnnieilsrof this-and every country. Now, I Contend,
that the case, created by the conduct of the Turks, was
an exception, and justified the means that have been re-*
•ftorted to, though at first it was certainly intended, that
those imams- eliould have been limited to negotiation and
dipkiniacy. retail now say a few 'words in corroboration
of what fell from my Noble Friend in reference to this pre-
sent motion, and mere particularly with respect to that
Treaty of-July, 1827, which has been so often the sub-
ject of observation. this evening. That Treaty is not to be
Understood' as- proceeding,' exclusively, ftom the British
Government. On the contrary, though the terms of it
were settled and arranged in-London, yet-it-was as equally 1
- the ,work of any or all of the High Contracting Parties, 'as
ifit had been drawn up , in .a place the- most remote from I
any of their dominions.. The Ambassadors of each Power,
resident in London, were in conjunction with his Majesty's
_Government,.the parties actually concerned in forming that
instrument . Now the manifest objection to the produc-
„thin :of the papers moved for by the Noble Lord was,
that they related to a transaction not yet concluded. Three
Governments are concerned, and we are, therefore, bound
to be cautions that we do not compromise the interests of
Allies, who repose confidence in our good faith and discre-
tion ; but even though there were no other party concern-
ed than this country, the papers ought not to be called for
while the transaction, to which they refer, remains in-
etmiukte. Having before this occasion stated most
, distinctly my intention, and that of his Majestses .Govern-
!pent, of carrying this measure into, the fullest effect I
-confess my surprise at hearing. the Noble Lord call upon
. my. Noble, Friend (the Secretary for Foreign Affairs) for
some-guarantee of our intentions upon this subject. I have
declared that I will do so to the utmost of my ability, and thii
is all that I conceive to be needful. From the moment
"bisililajesty's commands imposed upon me the commission
with which I have recently been entrusted, and which I
h;iv'e executed to the best of my ability—from that moment
-I felt that.my duty would demand the course I have ex-
my determination- to pursue--and at that moment
pressed
1 also thought it my duty explicitly to declare such nay in-
teption to the Noblemen and, Gentlemen who have done me
the honour to unite with.me in carrying on the service of
the King' After that, I do, not understand what is meant
,
of guarantees, Can it be supposed thatrniu:
by talking
Right Hon. Friend,
which
hablalidoi
who possibly may have spoken of a
meantgmuyaralchiateriet'c'tea
that treaty and the principles upon which it is founded-_
nd apnryingcinpaireSanatffeeo r beyond.
W. e thatr
Were . Iv. 1
' corruptly to abandon i t--I say corruptly, for in the circurn-
sta 'ices an Which Istand,as a party whoma diplomatic cape-
cit-,w..1e-
J concerned inhuming the original protocol,it would
be corrupt in me to abandon it—l should be unworthy of the
situation I have at present the honour to fill. Is it to be
' believed, then, that my Right Honourable Friend made any
other allusion to guarantees than such as I have already
spoken of; I have had no communication with him upon

the subject ; but I feel perfectly satisfied that he never could
have spoken in reference to it in any other point of view
than that in svhich f have now been presenting it to your
Lordships. It millet for a moment be imagined that he-
r/Mild so have been proclaiming his own shame at Liverpool
as to have admitted that he had-eo connected himself with
one from, whom such guarantees would have been neces-
sary. It. fully carries within itself evidence of miirepresen-
tatiore If he spoke on the subject at all, what fie must
have said was, that the men of whom his Majesty's Go-
vernment was composed were, from their character and
principles, a sufficient guarantee that the good of the people,
the dignity of the Crown, and the honour and interests of
the nation, would be unifornily prornoted,--not that the
Cabinet would be governed by any rules of mine,:faise or
otherwise. Again,.could it be supposed 'that I gave Ire_
culiarly to that flight Honourable Gentleman guaran-
tees which no one else received or thought of demand-
ing. I say now most distinctly, that every Member
of the . present Government' has 'entered the Cabinet
free _as air. The arrangements entered into with
them leave them at the ftilleet liberty to state their
.opinioes en every subject in the freest manner and
most explicit terms, and to propose any subject they
may think proper for the. consideration of his Majesty's,
Government.; it is, therefore, impossible that I could have
given any guarantees of the nature alluded to, and for the
freedom of action and speed to which I Have adverted, I
fearlessly appeal to the Noble Friends near me, who have
done me the honour to unite with me in the service of the
King. It cannot, of course, be forgotten, that I was a
member of Lord Liverpool's Cabinet, and that it being so,
I was party to the greater part of the measures upon which
it proposed to conduct the business of the present Admini-
stration;
.that I concurred in those measures, and that,
equally with others, I share their full responsibility.......
How, then, could I, with the least show of consistency,
the slightest regard for character, depart from the mainte-
nance and prosecution of measures to which I already stand
pledged? As to what has been said respecting the Finance
Committee, I soy of that as of the rest, that no particular
guarantee has been given on the subject; it will, never-
theless, be acted upon with as good faith as. any party
could desire. With respect to the Corn Laws, there was
a paragraph in his Majesty's Speech, at the end of the last
Session of Parliament, which contained a promise that the
subject should receive the earliest consideration; accord-
ingly it was the first subject that Government deliberated
upon, but that was done without any previous guarantee.
There could not have been any, nor was any necessary,
from those who at present composed the Cabinet. I need
not further trouble your Lordships on the present occasion,
than to express my intention to dissent from the motion of
the Noble Lord (Carnarvon.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE expressed his Bur-
prise that any one should have supposed, as the Right Hon.
_Member for Liverpool had done, that his (Lord Clanri-
carde's) lamented Relative, not long since at the head of
his Majesty's Government, would have coalesced with the
Administration as at present formed. The Noble Earl who
made such an assertion ought, he conceived, to adduce some
proofs in its support. He would, with the permission of
the House, read a short extract of a letter addressed by
that lamented and distinguished Relative of his to the
Noble Duke now at the head of hie Majesty's Government.
(The Noble Lord accordingly did so.) It appeared to have
been dated the sth of May, and, after adverting to a speech
delivered by his Grace, in which he had declared himself
wholly unfit for the office of Prime Minister, the writer
expressed his satisfaction at such a declaration coming from
the Noble Duke, fur he considered, that if placed at the
head of the Cabinet, he would still retain such an influence
over the army as would amount to a union in one person of
the highest civil and military authority, and would in hie
(Mr. C.'s) opinion be perfectly incompatible with a free
Constitution, and would altogether constitute such a state
of things as would preclude his serving under such a first
Minister. The Noble Lord (Clanricarde) then went on to
say, that he could impart no additional weight to testimony
so ample and unanswerable. He concluded, by expressing
his full conviction that his lamented Relative could
never have served under an Administration formed as the
present was, and that the Right Honourable Member for
Liverpool bad fallen into the greatest error, in conceiving
that he was acting conformably to the principles of him
whom he had spoken of as his dear and lamented friend.
The Earl of DUDLEY.—My Lords, I have been called
upon—twice called upon—to make an excuse to your
Lordships for remaining in the situation I at present fill;
but I have no excuse to make. My Lords, there are two
grounds which may prevent a man from uniting himself in
public life with others. , The first are political grounds;
and the second, which .I can admit only under very pecu-
liar circumstances indeed, are personal grounds eo strong,
as to render it absolutely impossible for the parties to.
speak with one another, nr moot ...; th 0..0a i.ii;Ercrant Enid-
ings on the ordinary concerns of life. I will say a word
or two upon each ; but I must first turn my attention to
tile personal considerations, which I have learned to-night
from the Noble Marquis (Clanricarde) opposite, were so
closely connected with the Opposition to the Adwinistra.;
tine of my late Right Hun. Friend, as to render it a mat-
ter of delicacy, attachment, and reverence to his memory,
on my part, not to form any manner of connection with
those concerned in that
_Apposition. -
The Marquis of, CLA.NRICARDE.—I said, under or-
dinary circumstances.
The Earl of DUDLEY.—Most undoubtedly, On the Oc-
casion of the formation of Mr. Canning's Administration,
expresaions did pass between that Right lion. :Gentletnan,
and some of those who opposed his Government, and with
whom I am now connected by the ties of- office, and with
some by friendship. , I will not deny that I shared in the
exasperation of the period. I will not deny that many ex-
pressions were used at that time highly irritating to both of
ps, and indeed to all on all sides; but I here ask whether
the memory of such expressions ought to he perpetuated ?
(Hear, hear.)-1 ask, my Lords, whether there is such a
:thing as the sacred duty of forgetting and forgiving?—
(Hear, hear.)—l ask whether it is not a duty in all cir-
-cumstances, but particularly in public life? Looking back
to the history a this country, we shall find examples of
some, of the greatest and most distinguished men we have
had to boast of, considering it a duty.—(Hear.)—Looking
to that history, we are taught that not only the law of pru-
dence, and the regard we owe our private feelings, but the
duty we Owe the public= bind us not to cherish those ani-
inesities.—(Hear, hear.)—But I will not go back into
remote history for an example, but will take that which
is close at hand, of the most distinguished man that
ever lived in this country, to show that I am jus-
tified in what I have done. The example of that
illustrious man alone will be my excuse, if one
be needed-4 mean that of my deceased friend him-
eelf.—(Loud cheering.)—My Lords, where could there
be feelings of greater exasperation—(l should wish to bury
the recollection of them in oblivion ; and it is only the
nature of preient circumstances which oblige me to call
them to mind)—but where were there ever feelings of
greater bitterness, growing from political differences, to
personal dislike, recrimination, and conflict, than . those
which at one time existed between my late Right Hon.
Friend and the distinguished Statesman to whose office he
afterwards succeeded. It is then not from my late lamented
Friend that lam to learn the lesson of implacability. It
would be a reproach, a stain on his memory to say that it
was. I never thought it matter of reproach, or matter of
sarcasm, but always matter of praise, that he could both
forget and forgive the feelings that were excited in him to-
wards that individual. I deem it also matter of praise that
he afterwards sat in his presence as a colleague of that in-
dividual, from Whom he had been so unhappily disunited
by personal feeling. They acted together not only with
cordiality as political friends, but, as I believe from the
bottom of my heart, with feelings of the greatest personal
kindness' towards each other.—(Hear, hear.) It is not
then from my Right Hon. Friend, I repeat, that lam to
learn the lesson of perpetual hatred on account of political
topics. My Lords, I was bound by feelings of the greatest
kindness to that Right Honourable Gentleman, and latterly
by ties I may almost say of gratitude ; for the situation in
which I am placed is really one to call forth such a feeling
on the part of the person appointed to it. But, my
Lords, I am asked, whether I can conscientiously say,
that there is nothing to prevent me joining those with
whom lat present hold office. I answer conscientiously
and fearlessly, that I know of nothing. lam taxed with
not having proper feelings of personal friendship, for not
resisting the personal strictures that are said to have been
passed on my right Hon. Friend, but, in point of fact, no
such thing as personal hatred was felt, for there was no
such thing as personal offence. There was never any thing
like a personal quarrel between my late Right Hon Friend,
and any of those who thought fit to oppose him. There
was no such thing even between my Right Hon. Friend
and the Noble Person who took the strongest, and, in one
sense, I may say, the most offensive ground against my
Right lion Friend's Administration. I have selected that
Noble Lord in particular, because, if there was no personal
animosity towards him where (the cause being greatest) it
would most naturally be looked for, there Cannot, I presume
be ground to imagine, that there was such a thing with re-
gard to any other Noble Lord. I say, that nothing passed
at that timne that would warrant me in perpetuating any
transitory feeling of .anger that may then have existed in
either breast. I will now say one word as to the duty of
suppressing these feelings. My Lords, one reason why men
cannot unite together in office, is a difference, in important
points of State policy. Now with regard to stipulations—
if by that is meant that sort of agreement by which one

man bargains to give up something which he would other-
wise maintain, were: it nut for the sake of joining in part-
nership with that other man--T. say, if that be meant by
stipulations have been made in the forma-
tsitoipnuolaftis'tohnepresent Administration ; but if by stipulations
.
it is meant to -speak of conversations and understandings,
as to points of great political importance, those conyersa-,
tions and those understandings have taken place, and do
ekist between the, Noble Duke at the bead of the Govern-
ment, and the surviving members of the late Administra-
tion. We did not go to the Noble Duke and stipulate
with him, and say, you shall not.go to the Protestant aisle
as it is called; nor did we say, it should be neutral ground,
nor did we stipulate that the Treaty of London should be
maintained ; but we understood from the Noble Duke that
lie was spontaneously to observe that plan of complete
neutrality with respect to the Catholic . Question which
had existed in the. two pre-ceding Governments ; and in
like manner we understood from him, that being called to
his Majesty's Councils, and finding his Majesty bound by
the terms_ of that treaty, be had spontaneously felt himself
bound to maintain its stipulations both with regard to the
honour of his master, and the interests of his country._
(Hear, hear.)—Of stipulations, therefore, there have been
one; but of agreements and of understandings there
ave been and are complete ; and with those understand-
ings, and those agreements, I have not been ashamed to
retain the situation I held in the late Administration.—
(Ikar, bear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—It seems to me more
respectful to this House, and to the importance of the
question moved by my Noble Friend, or at least of those
political considerations to which that question has led, for
me, first, to 'ask the attention of your Lordships to the
justification of the course which I feel myself called on to
pursue with regard to the present motion. After the
speech of my Noble Friend at the head of the Foreign De-
partment, I proceed to this subject more willingly, because,
though under the necessity of adverting to matters of per-
sonal consideration, in which I certainly take no part, par-
ticularly-in such of the nature lately brought forWard—
with respect to the motion of my Noble Friend, I must
freely- confess to him •and to your Lordships, that most
anxious as I feel, not only to see the-papers that he has
moved for, but many others, going much further back, on
these transactions, and necessary to the elucidation of those
that may be produced—yet, after such a solemn affirma-
tion on the part of my Noble Friend, who is immediately
engaged in negociations at this moment ; notwithstanding
my impression that a part of these papers might with safety
be produced, yet I must acquiesce in the objection made by
my Noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Department, ex-
pressing at the same time my hope that myNobleFriend near
me will not feel induced to press his motion. My Lords, I
am the more ready to acquiesce in that objection, and to
believe in the motives stated by my Noble Friend for de-
clining to assent to this motion, because I know no min
more interested in producing the whole of the papers than
my Noble Friend himself—there is no person more inte-
rested, with a view to the light which they must throw on
his past conduct—there is no person mere interested, o ith
a view to the honour they must reflect on those connected
with the plans from which they proceeded—with a view
to the light they must throw on the policy and opinions of
the Right Hon. Gentleman whose services were so unhap-
pily lost to his country, and whose great talents expired in
their brightest blaze, at a moment when they appear to have
Consumed the very source that produced them--and on
that Right Hon. Gentleman's fame, to which my Noble
Friend at the Head of the Foreign Department cannot be
less attached by the warmest affection, than he is to the
sound principles of policy to which those papers, when
they are produced, cannot fail to give additional lustre.
I am the more confident of the efforts which those
papers cannot fail to produce upon the public and this House,/
when I consider the effect the sight of them has produced
on those who have seen them—and I tell the. Noble and
Learned Lord on the Cross Bench, that he must not permit
himself to form an opinion on this most important question
till the papers are produced. If the Noble Lord who holds
the Privy Seal, and from whom I heard the last general
condemnation of the policy of Mr. Canning that was pro-
mulgated in this House—(Hear, and a laugh.)—lf that
Noble Lord, on perusing these papers, has not only been
able to bring himself to join in the unanimous vote, appro-
ving of the result of, the expedition to Portugal, which I
heard so loudly condemned—if, upon perusing these papers
he has satisfied himself—(Hear)--of the justice of those
principles on which the foreign policy of Mr. Canning was
founded, and on which, (my Noble Friend at the head
of the Foreign Department will confirm my state-
ment), every measure, taken for the last six months, has
been framed—if, I say, he has been able. honourably and
conscientiously, (and I have no doubt that he hair done it
honourably and conscientiously), to bring himself to enter
drag a Government in which it is understood, and by which
it has been stated, and has been now promulgated, in a
manner that admits of no doubt, that no change is to take
place in the principles of that foreign policy—what must
be the effect of these papers upon the minds of persons
who do not approach them with the bias which was on
that of the Noble Lord ? I have no doubt that all pe-
rusing them must come to the same conclusion as the
Noble Lord. It would be unwise to attempt to con-
sider the real merits of this important question, without
having previously obtained all the documents, and many
more, that my Noble Friend has moved for. Yet I must
say I think that, in the meanwhile, this House and the
j'poblic cannot more usefully employ their time and atten-
tion, than in well considering the grounds on which their
-judgment ought to be formed when those papers are pro-
duced, and in the few words I mean .to utter, I hope • the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Cross Bench (Eldon) will
not have to accuse me of anticipating the conclusion the
House may come to. The Noble and Learned Lord will
allow me to say, that when he was accusing my Noble
Friend of anticipating the judgment of the House, he was
himself pronouncing an opinion as to the merits of Admiral
Codrington's entrance into the Bay of Navarin. As the
Noble and Learned Lord has pronounced a confident opinion
on the subject, and has overlooked a point which seems also
to have escaped the attention of ethers who have discussed
the question, I shall beg to call his attention to it. lam
the more surprised at its having hitherto passed un-
noticed, as it is (if I may so say), a geographical notoriety,
and it is that part of the Bay of Navarin, that is part of
the land which forth, the Bay is actually part and parcel of
the British dominions—l mean the Island of Sphactoria--
which is one of our lonian Islands ; and where any batteries
might be erected, or any fleets; anchored, that any British
Governor, or British Admiral, might think proper to erect
or anchor there. When the Noble and Learned Lord
talks to us of the opinions of lawyers, I beg to tell him
there is no lawyer whatever, who, on being properly
retained on that side, and being shown our title to the land,
would not very satisfactorily prove our right to anchor our
fleets near it. It would require a lawyer of far less abilities
than the Noble Lord to demonstrate this. I will not allude
to any circumstances that may arise out of the production
of the documents ; but again, I ask your Lordships and the
public to snake up your minds as to the ground on which
you will judge of the necessity of that unfortunate (for un-
fortunate it undoubtedly must be styled, where human blood
is spilt), but, at the same time, most brilliant action. I
agree in what has fallen from the Noble Duke with regard
to the interference by one power in the affairs of another—
interference is the exception to the rule, but occasions have
a'risen, and occasions must arise, in which mediation, aye,
and armed mediation too, is necessary for the purpose of
securing the peace and welfare of mankind ; and when this
question comes to be argued hereafter, I shall not desire to
argue it on any other grounds than those laid down by
the Noble and Learned Lord the other night—namely,
the tendency of the action to secure the ultimate peace of
the world. Certain I am, that it is not by pusillani-
mously refusing to engage in those transactions in which
the rest of Europe have embarked, that that peace is to
be ultimately secured. We shall have first to ascertain whe-
ther this was not a mediation for the benefit of the parties
interfered with alone ; and next, whether it was not one of
those sorts of mediation not particularly intended for CLIO
benefit of the two'parties more immediately concerned, but
for the benefit, and for the sake of the peace and happiness
of Europe generally. In the last inquiry, we shall
have
to examine whether the continuance of the state of things
we wished to put a stop to, might not ultimately hive dis''
btuoruhreidngthneabtiaolanns.ce
If
iptosbveerfoanundd
ttetpetahceeseuenees
ofco nsetheineigh-
might have ensued, I shall then ask your Lordships whe-
ther the most beneficial course, that most likely to contri-
bute to the peace of Europe, was not MILO. Will any of
your Lordships say, that the interference ought to have been
left in the hands of a power which might have extended
much further than could be reconciled with the interests of
other nations? Will any of your Lordships say, thinkingly
say, that it ought to have been left to one great Colossus to
act in the solitude of its power, uncontrolled by that com-
munity of principle which it has been the object of all the
late negotiations to establish? Will your Lordships say,
we were to suffer that, or permit our commerce to be
scourged, and run the chance of a new and dangerous sort
of power being erected in that quarter? We shall have
to reflect upon all these things, and to say whether it
was not better that the operation should be carried on
by the nations jointly, and should be limited and certain
in its object, or that we should run the risk I have
alluded to, in suffering it to be conducted without our partici-
pation. Ido not think any of your Lordships are prepared
to say, admitting, as we did, the legitimacy of the inter-
ference, that any one Power should not interfere.' When

the documents come before us, we can judge whether the
laws of nations have been complied• with, or whether there
was a call for 'their •dispensation by the situation of our
commerce. We shall then safely judge of the policy and
discretion that was exercised ,in reducing and controlling
the more or less barbarous government we came in contact-
with, and of •the necessitythat existed for doing so for the
general peace and happiness of other countries. So much
have I been induced to say upon the subject of the question
my Noble Friend has brought before this House. That
question involves most important considerations on our fo-
reign policy, both with regard to the past and the future;
and it has not been unnatural for me to dwell somewhat
upon a subject so intimately connected with the prospect
iwhich this country has of being governed according to the
true principles of legislation which have (we understood
the Noble Lord to say) influenced its councils for some fen-
years past. My Noble Friend who sits upon the Cross Bench
(Lord Goderich) has been led by this consideration, perhaps,
to go into some details respecting the events of the last three
months. To the statement he has made, as far as lam Sc-'
quainted with the particulars, I must entirely subscribe. It
has been correctly stated that the dissolution 0 the late
Administration originated in certain differences between a
Right Hen. Friend of mine and another Right lion. Person
who was in the Government. That difference was a strong
one upon a most important point, but although it was
strong, I will not go so far as to say that it is irreconcile-
able.—(A laugh.) After what I have seen and heard, I
think myself bound to state, that the dissolution (lid not
occur in consequence of any previous understanding that it
was a temporary Government.—(Hear, hear.) My Noble
Friend has stated, on the part of himself and others, and as
far as I am acquainted with the facts, I can certify to the
truth of the statement, that there was nothing like such an
understanding. Indeed lam convinced that there could
have been no such understanding, because, from the
frankness of communication which marked every part
of my Noble Friend's conduct, particularly towards
myself, I am sure if he had known, or even surmised
that it was understood so by others, he would have told me
so at once. And I trust your Lordships will forgive me,
for I mean it not boastingly,. if ,I say, that no consrderatinn
could have induced me to retain the situation I held in the
Government, had such been the circumstances under which
I was to have- held it. My Lords, I and bound to set the
public right in one or two points, in which my conduct on
a late occasion has not been placed before it in that light
in which an explanation from me can place it. A state-
went has been reported to have been made by my Right
Hon. Friend in another place, which I believe to bays been
made by him, for it appears to have been very accurately
reported, all the accounts agreeing substantially in their
representation in what he said. I do, not wish to com-
plain of this statement in any other sense than as containing
facts, necessarily perhaps, certainly unintentionally, dis-
joined from other facts, which, as far as I am concerned,
most materially affect the complexion of my conduct at the
period to which they relate. My Right Hon. Friend has
stated to his constituents the substance of a conversation that
passed between him and myself, I think on the I Ith of Ja-
nuary, relating to the formation of an Administration, and
connected with the dissolution of that over which my
Noble Friend first presided. I met my Right Hon. Friend
with a disposition to giver him my confidence, and with
an expectation of having his in return. This mutual
confidence I was prepared to expect, because, in the very
last conversation that occurred between my Right Hon.-
Friend and myself, which was on the 29th of December,
he, for the first time, detailed to me all the circumstances
that have been alluded to by myNoble:Friend, and explained
to me the impossibility, under the circumstances of that
difference, of his forming part of a Government where
such a difference could not but exist. He furthermore
then acquainted me with his intention to tender his re-
signation en account of that supposed irreconcilable difle.
rence. He then received front me my assurance of my en-
tire agreement in what lie said, which assurance I after-
wards repeated to him in the form of a letter. I then
left town, and, except an intimation to ate from a Noble
Friend, that be had acted upon his resolution,' nothing
more passed till I came to town, and had that conversation
with the Right Honourable Gentleman to which he has
referred. My Noble Friend, I found, had represented the
circumstances of the case to his Majesty, who was there-
upon pleased to send to the Noble Duke now at the head
of the Government, to form an Administration. My Right
Honourable Friend had seen the Noble Duke and
another Noble Lord on the subject of the formation of the
Government, and he has stated most correctly that part of
our conversation. He expressed his sense of the insur-
mountable difficulties that would prevent tne from forming
part of such a Government; and that much he stated to his
constituents; but it is necessary to supply those parts of
the conversation which he has omitted. My Right Hon.
Friend commenced the conversation by stating" to me the
circumstance, that be understood from high authority, that
a proposal would almost immediately be made to me on that
subject; I did not understand from him that he had autho-
rity to snake the proposal, or that he did not make it, least
the circumstances he stated to me compelled me, consider-
ing the habits of confidence in which we had lived, to make
the answer which he has detailed in his statement. It
was after he had stated to me the impossibility of his act-
ing in a Government under Mr. Peel, owing to that Gen-
tleman's declarations last year on the Catholic Question,
that I felt called upon to return his confidence, by stating
to him the impossibility in which I found myself, of acting
with any Government which, front any thing I heard, or
any assurance I had to the contrary, was opposed to the
great interests which it was my deep and conscientious be-
lief could not even be neglected without the utmost danger.
It was then I called his attention to the grounds on which
I had joined Mr. Canning's Administration. I joined it,
not because I in general agreed with him upon the other
objects of his policy, but on the express grounds of
the advantages that. would undoubtedly attend the great
interests I thought of so much consequence in there be-
ing at the head of the Government an individual, who
on those points, entertained the same opinions with my-
self. The opinion I entertained on this point was subse-
quently confirmed by a declaration made by Mr. Peel else •
where, in which he stated his sensibility of the force of the
same considerations ; for he stated, that he could not act
under an individual who differed with him on the subject
of those great interests. I felt bound in candour to state
to my Right Hon. Friend, what influenced me in my de-
termination; and I am glad to have had, this opportunity
of making the statement I now have, because nothing could
hurt me more than to have it supposed that I was in-
fluenced in the declaration I made to my Right Honourable
Friend by an ostentatious desire to show an indifference for
office, or still less, by any thing like personal disinclination
to join any of the Noble and Honourable individuals I un-
derstood to be forming the Government. These circum-
stances will explain in what manner the confidential inter-
course between us was carried on. Ido not complain of
the statement made by, my Right Hon. Friend, as I am
confident it was made with no unfavourable intention
or unkind feeling—and if I have any thing in it to re-
gret, it is only that in the anxiety he must have felt
to communicate light to his constituents, as to the trans-
actions that have lately occurred, he seemed to think be
could convey some motives to them of the dissolution of
the Government, whilst he seemed to think himself cetn_
pelled entirely to withhold all mention of what my Noble
Friend has stated, and which I agree with him in stating
to be the real cause of the dissolution. Of that question,
however, I have now disposed. I have candidly stated my
own feelings, with respect to the formation of the present
Government, and the reasons which withhold me from
giving it that sort of confidence, which, in my opinion,
ought only to be given where there is an entire and perfect
agreement of sentiment on the great interests I have alluded
to. lam sure I have no reason whatever to doubt the as-
surances that have been given me on those subjects, 'al-
-1 though certainly theygo-sonsething beyond what I have
heard stated in this' House. The expression which has been
so much adverted to; of guarantee, was not the expression
of my Noble Friend who made the motion, for it was boa_
rowed by him from my Right Hon. Friend in the state-
ment I have alluded to. In that statement he said, that
the whole of our foreign and commercial policy was
gua-
ranteed in the arrangement of the present Ministry, to be
carried on on the same footing as they were under Mr.
Canning's Administration. The Pledge has been given in
distinct terms, and, up to this moment, an uncontradicted
'
statement. My Lords, my Noble Friend at the head of the
Foreign Department has fortunately release] the Noble
Lord who holds the Privy
.Beal from the charge of euter-,.
taining any personal animosity against the late Mr. Cau,
ning. He acknowledges that some violent and strong ex-
pressions were applied to Mr. Cannines policy, hut
denies that they could have originated in any
personal feeling I am glad that he has had the
opportunity of thus relieving his and my Noble Friend from
the imputation that had been case upon him. As these
expressions were not personal, but merely in disapprobation
of mr. Canning's policy, I May mistake when I am called
on to believe that that policy will be continued without
change. If my Noble Friend has been open to reflection,
and has inquired into the merits of that policy during the
last year, and satisfied himself as to his perfect correctness
in all its parts, so as to be prepared to act with a Govern-
ment, the principle of which is, that no change is to take
place in that policy, either foreign or commercial, 1 aus
sure he will prove a useful Ally in the cause he has newly
undertaken to advocate. My Lords, I am, therefore, little
disposed to enteriim.'" any course of opposition to a Govern-
ment, which is pursuing, and which promises to pursue,

the same measures which were pursued when I was ter-
-a Meunier of the Government.:There was nothing is
situation which I held, and hive left..— ,nothing in '
motives which induced me to enter into his Majso)
'Goxernment, when - his Majesty deigned to desire
-to. do so--;.nothing in the circumstances under wbi
I was permitted by his Majesty to resign the seals
-office, honoured, as I was,. by his express approtsi
tion of my .conduet ' whilst I held :theinnothiog,
- m
say, that -should - induce eto join in - a ;_regl4
course of opposition to Government. --That Governio:
will, I am sure, entitle itself to my. confidence, and that"
the intelligent part .of the community, on the subject
-what. is' celled, the Catholic. Question; -_ 1 have-alresl
stated that I cannot feel, the same sentiments on that St°
ject as many individuals who are in the Government. 311
have pledged themselves that that question is to be 0
it called neutral ground, hut, mylords, I know too to
of- political neutral ground, not to,know that the inhalc
tants of that country, having its princip..l garrisons be
j
bran o, enemy, is not in a very comfortable situation,
though that enemy be as fair and honourable, and act w'"l
he strict a neutrality as I am certain the Noble Duke i'l"
tends to do. I trust that the road to promotion and ifp
vour, although running immediately under the guns i:
that fortress, will be left safe and open to travellers of
creeds, as heretofore. lam glad to hear the Noble DO,'
pledge himself to this ; but on that subject I must be 0
lowed to say,- that I shall look to his actions, to the It'
ture, and to the progress which I know that cause mutt
make under such circumstances. With respect to eve
other object of public interest, it. is not 'my dispositiol,
to prejudge the Noble Duke or his Government; to°
I run sure that he would not have quitted - that sites'
tion, ill which all men must _have rejoiced to see hitt'
and for which I am satisfied that he is much beds'
qualified 'than any man, living—and I have stated 0
much on mare than one occasion before to-night—l sli
sure, I say, lie would not have quitted that situation, with'
out feeling, confidently feeling, that it was.in his power
to render greater services toithe State, in • the situation 11'
now holds, than in that in which he has relinquished'
To those services I look with confidence. The eyes of liiii
country, of Europe, are upon all his actions, and I trail
that that improvement, for which there is in the condi'
tion of this country too ample room, may .take place #
soon as the Noble Duke expects. With respect to the itr
fluence the Noble Duke is said to retain over the ariofr
notwithstanding his resignation ,of. that office, we have hl
pledge that the separation shall he. real and effectual.
am glad, for the sake of the Constitution of the countil
that he has given this pledge, and I trust that, for ti°
sake of the Constitution and of his own honour, that tl
pledge will be redeemed. My pleasure is not the less, tho
this reasonable and Constitutional course was intimated l'
the Noble Duke, as his intention to take on the very filse 1
day of the Session. The manner in which he intends to '
proceed will, I trust, be effectual. The Noble Duke het
pledged himself that nothing of hostility shall be evinced 00,
the part of the Government; but he mast excuse me if ;
say that I still intend to look at the actions of the Cabinets
before I can feel satisfied that Ireland may hope for re'
lease ; but I feel sure that the Noble Duke would not have
quitted that situation, in which all the nation wished 0
see him, and which, of all men, lie is most fitted to fill,
without the feeling, that by so doing it would be in his
power to render the financial and political departments of
the State great services—services on which will be the eyes •
not only o England, but of Europe ; and I can assure , the
Noble Duke that he will find, in the present condition of
the country, as much rodm for the exercise of those ser-
vices as be can possibly expect. But I must confess that I
should see that appointment with greater satisfaction, if I
could bring myself to believe that the interest, of the
army would be distinctly separate from the present office
of the Noble Duke. lam glad, however, for the sake of
the Constitution, that that pledge has been given ; and I
hope that in consideration of that same Constitution, it
will be strictly adhered to, for I think that the Noble
Duke acted most wisely and constitutionally, when he in'
timated on the first day of the meeting of Parliament, that '
a separation of the offices was to take place, which could
not but be satisfactory to every one. I trust that this in'
timation 'is a prologue descriptive of the play that will be
acted, and that in this prologue scene it will be said,
"No harm shall be dove with my sword." But, as I
hive said-before, I will not prejudge the intentions of any
one: I shall-watch every thing that takes place, as a mem-
ber of the Legialature of my country; and I can assure the
'Noble Mike, that I wish bins the most fortunate success in
his Adnitinistration ; but before I sit down, I,beg leave to '
assure him, which I do with a firm conviction of its truth,
that whatever he may be able to`achieve;- there Is one thing
Which,- with all'his military enemies,- he-never can achieve,
and against which I warn -him—let hiin remember, that be
may conciliate, but that he can fever reconquer Ireland. '
(Hear, hear, bear.)
Loid ELLENBOROUGH.—Whenever it way be dee-
med-Consistent with the public interest to produce all the
matters which have taken place within the last six months
—whenever it may be deemed consistent to lay on the
table of this House all those papers from which alone we
can rightly judge of facts, I shall be as ready as the Noble
Marquis to explain the opinion I have formed en these
events; and when I assure your Lordshipsii thatt
my opinions may have been, they still remain unaltered,
w properaltheraedtev,efr
trust that I shall be entitled to
have your
ae come beli
to
belief
time shall arrive for a fuller explanation than at present.
.---(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis seems to suppose
that some records of office must my knowledge
by which, in spite of a former disapproval on my
,part, I
theN oofholeurint:rocionpiss friosmasPworrotungag Portugal but
i
have been induced to concur in that part of N. Majesty's
Speech which has reference to the orders that have been
troops into Portugal I never did disapprove. How was
flgaieblegnatofsobr
esathiyes, withdrawalitnihisreason.
Of
the
im
portation of our
it possible- that I' could disapprove of an act which
was in strict obedience with the terms of our treaty with
that country ? I certainly did ridicule those wbo'pretended
to speak of that act as a master stroke of policy, for host;
could that be a master stroke of policy for which
we had no choice ? And even if I had disapproved of the
measure, how much more warmly would that 'fact have .
which pronounced that state of affairs to be at an end ! "
Mr. Canning is to
pose, from what has been promulgated, the former policy of
reason to change the sentiments which I' formerly enter-
tainedhe persevered in, and that I haVa found
on this subject ; but I am at a lose to see how it can
be concluded, that I have changed my sentiments, because
his colleagues, policy into effect, for I
I think it right to agree with those who wish to carry the
cßmhuiaetdfetphinrei
principle
-adpeerrodse
vious, an attemptawast
the
never heard any man explain whit' that principle was
-as contradistinguished from the policy of the 31,iaistry
itni:::liittukhost
be considered
lopblielnecoiafdlaeairrci.n with
icas
sntahn)aia,nt
gtp:saartt
he
ef
hashis b3eelaajesltyed'smapsee:ph.
which preceded him I know that when, some time pre•
pawhraente Ahler.
wCasannsinegerefrtaornyi
ininetaonsait:ol explanation, of State for ForeignandAhffaiadie,saitdh,atthagtenhtelemeoaL entered
into
nlatnitiotiotale praise to himself for any difference
from the political creed of the late Ministers; for, if he was
to do so, be would be acting most unfairly, and be forfeit-
ing any claim that he might have to credit, from the House
in which he was speaking. But it is the fashion to think,
that eminent Minister; but,
nalinagt,nallour
commercialforeign
poploicli: is 'attributable to Mr. Canning;
perhaps even the Noble Marquis may suppose that the re-
cognition of the States of SlutfhaorA,,nmoersinecahwthaisngowwiansget}oe
case. But the Noble Maragnudishhadadstaaildkedthaatbohuetutre.r3Ctoaonti.
that that likewise was to be persevered in : the Noble Mar-
quis will, doubtless, recollect, that when that policy was
from the opinions
In
nroluvghhatt
respect,
then, have
thblayirt,ehliiiln_skgsoillees,ohinaase:id,kofdtihdonseotii:oasreg
argue
it. 1 ,
alwaYs
have
proved of the principles of free. trade, and have been desirous
.to carry them as might be suitable to the
generally ap-
State ofthesountry ,
in favour of the Slave Trade contended, that, in looking at , . Africa, and the black in the West Indies, the
the black so-
be much
latter is found to . the happiest, quite overlooking
which I once entertained? l
the horrors of- the middle passage. Many of our political
economists look too much to the wealth of the rfation only,
all that more forget
extended policy which separates
andtke foreign Powers by which we are surrounded,
us from
the„, my Lords, that I shall approach any future commer-
cial discussion,- but I beg .that it swuchiiichfeeislinofpthase
that that which has been done within the last few years
is any innovation introduced by Mr. Canning. I think
that the Noble Marquis cannot find fault with me for
fiwming part of a Government in which the Catholic
Claims stand in the same posture as heretofore. I said
last year that this question was likely to stand better in a
neutral position, and I say so now. lam persuaded that if a
union were to take place in favour of those claims, it would
produce a re-action, which would throw back rather than
advance the Catholic interest, whilst a union against them
would be an evil of considerable magnitude, the Other
way; and I feel convinced, however paradoxical it may '
appear to the Noble Marquis, that the Catholic Question is
likely to derive more good under this Government than it
would have done under his, and for this very reason; be- •
cause, if brought forward.under his, it would have excited
those who „were against the measure to a strong resistance,
which is not so likely-to arise under the present Adminis-
tration., On Ibis question, toy . Lords, the public opinion
hanigtelisktei‘invipseorttlai:nattceeme.iffunreacalta"s' State.swt el system e I Yoi ft