The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to move an amendment
on the subject of the petitions presented to that House,
complaining that the House of Commons did not repre-
sent the people. The substance of those petitions was
contained in a petition which was presented, a short
time ago, from the town of Birmingham. The allega-
tions in that petition were—firstly, that that
House did not represent the people ; secondly,
that it did not possess the' confidence of the
people ; thirdly, that a large number of Mem-
bers had 'notoriously obtained their seats by the most
profligate bribery and corruption ; fourthly, that the
proceedings of that House were obviously influenced by
selfish, personal, and party motions, rather than by the
interests of the people. These were the allegations
contained in that petition which had been laid on the
table of the House. He was much surprised, in refer-
ring to the Journals, to find that this important docu-
ment had not been published by the Committee on Peti-
tions. There had been 31 petitions presented during the
present session, all complaining of grievances, and he
had only found that one of those petitions had been pub-
lished. His proposition was for a Select Committee to
inquire into the subject of those petitions, and to make a
report thereon. If that House did represent the people,
why did they not boldly and at once declare that the
allegations contained in those petitions were unfounded?
He was not now going to advocate the extension of
the franchise, although he thought the franchise ought
to be extended. He should merely confine himself on
the present occasion to the subject of the petition to
which he had adverted. So long as the impression ex-
isted in the minds of the people that they were not re-
presented in that House, so long would there be resist-
ance to the law ; and, under such circumstances,
the only means by which the Government in this
country could be carried on would be that
of an extensive military force.—(Hear.) He was
surprised to hear the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr.
T. Duncombe) express his objection to this motion, be-
cause he himself had taken a precisely similar course.
He (Mr. S. Crawford) could assure the House that it
was not his intention to adopt any factious proceeding,
nor should he pursue any course which he thought;not
' calculated to be attended with success. He shobld,
however, on all occasimig-when the army estimates were/
proposed, move that the military force of this country-)
be reduced, and he should persist in such motions until
the grievances of the people were redressed. The lon.
Member concluded by moving—" That the several peti-
tions which have been received and laid on the table of
this House since the-commencement of the session, com-
plaining that this House is not a true representatio# of
the people, be referred to a Select Committee to ingitire
into the said allegation ; and that the further considera-
tion of the Estimates be postponed till such Committee
shall report thereon."'
Mr. BLEWITT seconded the motion. Every day's
experience convinced him that that House merely legis-
lated for themselves, and this was more particularly
shown in the late discussions on the Horse Raking
Penalties Bilkwhich had been introduced for the pur-
pose of screening, on the plea of ignorance of the pia',
certain high personages who had violated the law. I He
would like to know how a plea of ignorance of the law
would avail a poor wretch on his trial in a criminal
court. Would that plea relieve him from the verdict
of the jury or diminish his punishment? The corn-laws,
too, were imposed merely to
.put •money in the
pockets of the landlords by depriving the poor of biead.
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the motion l5
Against it 9l
Majority . —76
SUPPLY.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
On the vote that 594,3701. be granted for the vic-
tualling of seamen and the marine forces.
Dr.BOWRING thought,that when the House was called
upon to vote away more than half a million of money,
they should have some information in detail to justify
them in giving their,assent to it. The House ought to
know how so large a sum was applied.
Captain. PECHELL opposed the employment of the
naval force in the collection of poor-rates. Several
ships of war had been employed at Castlebar, on the
coast of Galway, in conveying land-lubbers of police,
from place to place. The marine force had likewise
been employed 'in the same disgraceful manner. Lord
Lucan declared, that he would encourage opposition to
the collection of a new poor-rate, whilst the old one re-
mained unpaid, and in this most unpopular and despotic
service were her Majesty's ships of war engaged. The
Hon. and Gallant Member proceeded to censure the
Admiralty for not bringing the principle of the Arcliime-
dian screw into more general operation. The Rattler,
which was announced by the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, to have been ready along time ago was not yet
completed, but was employed in running up and down
the river, testing the efficacy of Mr. Brunei's experi-
ments. The Archimedian screw had been employed in
the United States with great success, and one of the vessels
which accompanied the Royal Yacht from Treport, was
found to be only surpassed by her - Majesty's
own vessel. He congratulated the Board of Ad-
miralty on the appointment of Mr. Hall, a
most deserving officer, to the post of Commander in the
navy, and to a situation in her Majesty's yacht. They
were now going to raise 2,000 boys for the navy, but, after
three years, their term ceased, and he was glad to see
that many of them and their friends were most anxious
that they should be re-entered. Each boy that was
taken was obliged to be 981bs. in weight, and most of
those who were reared in the Gilbert unions were
found to be qualified in that way ; but, unfortunately,
the great part of those from the other poor-law unions,
were found beneath that weight. What he was most
anxious for was that those young men, after their term
of service had expired, should not he thrown upon the
streets without the slightest resource, and be conse-
quently compelled, in the greater number of cases, to
adopt a course of dishonesty and crime. He did, hope
that the Admiralty would look closely to the 10-gun
brigs, for he considered them to be perfectly valueless.
It was true the Admiralty, in disposing of them, endea-
voured to make the most of them—(A laugh)—for,
although they demanded 1000/. for each, they could
not get more than 5001. for'any one of them. •
Sir JAMES COCKBURN, in reply to the question
which had been put to him respecting the employment
of the officers of her Majesty's navy in collecting the
poor-rates, said that if any officer went ,to collect
them he certainly misunderstood his instructions. The
only object was that wherever along the coast disturb-
ance or excitement prevailed the fleet was stationed,
and its presence in the neighbourhood where those rates
were being collected might have led to the surmise.
However, if he could find out an officer who did so, an
investigation would at once be entered into upon the
subject. With regard to steam-boats generally, the
present administration of the Admiralty were doing all
they could to improve them, and they were endeavour-
ing to find out what construction might prove to be the
best.' He believed that after all that had been said they
could turn out a better set of steam-boats than could be
turned out on the other side. With respect to the dis •
charging of boys when the ships were paid off, he could
only say, that the service required that a certain amount
of men must be kept up. But he would be very glad
to retain the boys, if his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would allow it.—(Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) He thought that it was very useful
that men who had entered into her Majesty's
service for a certain term should go round to the
merchant service, and come back again when wanted
into the navy. That course of circulation provided the
merchant service with good men, whom the Government
would have back again whenever- they were wanted.
However, tied as the Admiralty was, it• could not do
,otherWisein respect to the "boys. As to the captains'
clerks, he hail never heard any complaints from them,
and he was sure that if there were any grounds of coca-
plaii4 they wouli have been,preferred before the Cora:.
•,
Asibrio.l4

mission,-._ As.t.o.the_ten-gun brigs, he must Say that he
thought they were a cuss Very-much
He had had several under' his command, and he had
found them very useful. He did not deny that many_
ten-gun brigs had been lost; but he was convinced that
their loss was attributable to the deficiency of crews and
the want of men to attend to their sails Palthough there
were oases in which the loss was clearly Ao be ascribed,-
to their being struck by lightning. There. was
ir-gr--411,.
deal more said than there ought to be in Order td:ltitabli.
a row about these vessels. Certainly they were not ves—
sels that he (Sir George Cockburn) admired—they wore
not good sailers. However; they 'were getting rid of
them, and adding a class of others to the navy which he
hoped would be faster, though he was pretty sure they
would not prove safer vessels.—(Hear, hear.)
Capt. PECHELL explained.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he thought it was a
matter of great regret that when millions were being
voted away in that House there was always such a thin
attendance—there being sometimes not more than forty
Members present. He considered this circumstance a
serious reflection upon the character of that House.—
(Laughter.) He further thought it extremely odd that
the reporters, when these millions were being voted,
also declined attendance, or, what was pretty nearly the
same thing, they shut their books up immediately.—
(Loud laughter.) However, he should do his dety and
leave the responsibility of this absence from the douse
to the Members guilty of it: He wished on the present
occasion to say a few words on the subject of the vic-
tualling and the paying of the Navy. First, to the pay-
ing.fl hey paid a seamen for what was called the thir-
teen months in the year. Now, in his opinion, this was
a great absurdity, and the practice should, at once be
abolished. A sailor did not understand thirteen months
in the year, and he would be much more satisfied if the
Admiralty would change the system, still giving to ,him
of course the two pounds, for that amount to him was a
very great thing indeed. He would next go to the petty
officers—a class of men most necessary to keep up the
comfort, happiness, and discipline of a ship, and there-
fore highly to be prized by any Government. If the
petty officers had been properly treated in earlier years
—if they had been better paid and more respected, the
country would never have heard of the mutiny of
1798. In the present day there was a gopd deal
that - might be done for this most useful
class of men, and he was satisfied that even
on the ground of economy the Government would
lose nothing if they gave the second-class petty officers
one-half more than the seamen, and the first-class petty
officers double what the seamen received, He should
mention that the seamen themselves could-be made much
more satisfied if so much were not drawn from them on
the voyage for slops, in order that, when they arrived at
home, they might have more to draw. A remedy should
be applied here. He came next to the subject of boys ;
and he must say he could not agree in what had fallen
from the Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir George Cock-
burn.) Boys were fit for sea when 98 pounds weight.
—(Laughter.) If they got into a good ship, with an active
and conscientious officer, their manners, morals, and
education, were alike excellently attended to. At the
proper time they were taught to reef and steer, and to
take their part capitally in the whole work of the ship.
They were made first-class boys at 17, or what was gene-
rally termed " hobble-de-hoys," and then they came
homeward: When they got ashore, the crimps pounced
upon them, got them to bad houses, taught them to
chew tobacco, to smoke, to drink, to do everything, in
short, that was nasty and bad. This was the way to
ruin the poor lads, and just after such pains and care
had been bestowed on them. They were not- old
enough for the merchant service, and ao they
were left to ramble about drenched with
every vice that could degrade them. - In his
opinion Government ought to take them on board
the flag-ships, in preference to taking new hands. In
this neglect of the boys he found one of the, main
causes which made sailors so careless in their after lives.
Next, he should allude to the pensioned seamen. Four-
teen years used to be the term in which a sailor was
entitled to a. pension—now it was twenty-one. The
fourteen years ought, in his opinion, to have been kept
to, for twenty-one years was too long for a seaman to
look forward to. Under present circumstances he would
not give both pension and pay; but the pay increased
by pension, which, from time to time, might be increased
also. For instance, the pay of a sailor was 181.; but that
after 14 years he increased by pension to 251. or Boa In
a little while, he would increase this sum, and keep mo-
derately increasing it, thus not only securing present
good conduct, but inducing good men to remain in the
service. Next he should refer to the masters. Upon
this subject also he did not agree with the Gallant Ad-
miral. opposite (Sir G. Cockburn). Masters were not
brought up now in the merchant service, but in our own.
He thought they ought to hold out an encouragement
to their Lieutenants in the navy to qualify for masters,
and that might be done by giving them better pay.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the items for
which this large sum was to be expended were not
placed clearly before the House. In the army esti-
mates all was clear and intelligible, but such was not
'the case in the navy,
After some few observations from Mr, Tuffnell, Mr.
S. Herbert,. Captain Dundas,. and Captain Plumridge,
the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was 126,826/. to defray. the salaries of
the officers connected with the Admiralty, and the ex-
pense of the Admiralty office. .
Mr. WILLIAMS suggested thatOt-would be a great
:improvement if the clerks in these'.departments were
required to work more hours a-day, and were Abetter
paid. It would' be more satisfactory to the 'persons
employed, and the public service would be better
performed.
Captain IIOUS said that on a former evening it was
stated that the Government could on an emergency have
200 merchant steamers, and thus have the entire com-
mand of the narrow seas. But he would ask whether
the Admiralty could procure 200 naval officers, who
knew anything of steam-vessels, to command them 1'
He believed that at this moment one half of her
Majesty's steamers were commanded .by officers
who knew nothing whatever about steam-vessels
or their machinery, and Were so completely
dependent on the engineers, that .they could not make
any evolution - without first consulting him, so
that they were the servants of the vessels,. rather than
the commanders. The navy generally 'was not in the
state it ought to be. The French squadron on the coast
of Syria went through evolutions that could not be
executed by our fleet. But, if the Admiralty would
persist in employing old officers, who had been a quarter
of a century on the shelf, instead of active young
officers, it was imposssible that their ships could be well
commanded. It was owing to the great care the French
Government took to have young and. active officers that
their ships were so well managed. But here, so great
was the preference given to old officers, that a young
one was scarcely allowed to have anyopinion-at fill. In
other situations a man was allowed to arrive, at some
time or other, at years of discretion—(Laughter)—but,
in the navy, lie was not considered worth anything till
he could neitherhear, see, nor chew her Majesty's biscuit.
—(Great laughter.) He condemned the,manner in
which a preference was given at the Admiralty to ships
of certain construction ; he once commanded a 28-gun
frigate for four years, and, when he reported to the
Admiralty that she would make a very good merchant-
ship, but was a disgrace to a civilised nation, as a
ship of w'r, he was told that all the previous
reports from captains of this class of vessels had been
highly favourable; it was well known, in the service that
if a captain did not report well of a ship belonging to a
class in which the Admiralty took an interest, there was
an end of his prospects of future employments—(Hear,
hear from Sir C. Napier.) The same' ships were re-
ported against by one other officer—Captain Dundas,
the son of the First Lord of the Admiralty at the time—
and he was written to by Mr. Croker, both publicly and
privately, deprecating the .course he had taken. But,
some time afterwards, when it was found that the Ad-
miralty had no longer any interest in these vessels, there
was not a dissentient voice in the profession respecting
the bad qualities of these vessels. In the same manner
they must be cautious how they received all these re-
ports about the merits of the. Penelope, and other,
steamers, and of the vessels of Captain Symonds. They
might believe as much of them as they liked ; and the
less they believed of them the better.—(Hear, hear.)
Every report from the Dockyards on vessels not built
by themselves was not 'to be depended on ; the build
of ships in the private yards was much superior to that
of the naval yards. But though the navy surveyor and
navy builders hated each other like poison—(Laughter)
—yet they all combined in condemning any vessel built
in the yards of London, Liverpool, and Isle of Wight,
though they were as superior to the ships in her Majesty's
service, as Sir W. Symonds was to a working shipwright.
He contended that year after year the Board of Admi-
ralty was in the habit of humbugging the House of
Commons.—(Great laughter.) And the greatest use he
could be in the House was, when he saw one of these
sneaking jobs attempted, to lay it bare to them. He
repeated his condemnation of the continual preference
of old officers to young ones, and concluded by stating,
that when one of these valuable old officers was sent to
sea, after being 25 years on shore, the only hope was
that he would get a good young commander or first-
lieutenant to take care of him, that he would hold his
tongue on all occasions, and give good dinnwrs to his
lieutenants and midshipmen, whenever he invited them
to his table.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN hoped that when
the Hon. and Gallant Member quoted anything he had
said that he would quote him correctly. He had never
stated that a young officer waSdnot to have an opinion.
What he did say in the debate the Hon. and Gallant
Member had alluded to was this, that having heard a
certain opinion expressed by a young officer he hoped
the House would not refuse to listen to an old one. With
regard to the charges made by the Gallant Member he
denied that they applied to .the present Board of Ad-
miralty. He would defy anitßoard to take more pains
than it had done to improve:The-state of the navy. He
defended the surveyor of the ^navy (Captain- Symonds),
stating his conviction that the service was much
indebted to him.--(Hear, hear.) At the same
time he did not think his ships were perfect, and the Ad-
miralty were making every exertion to procure improve-
ments on them. They had selected the . three most ta-
lented naval architects from the different yards, and
sent them to Chatham to make a scientific report on the
defects supposed to exist in these vessels. An elaborate
Report had been presented to the Admiralty, pointing
r
out the defects, and stating the scientific reasons f
them. These three naval architects were nown employedain
in constructing vessels according to their (:.)w.
if ossibie,pto try if
order to remedy these defects, and,stnctor!.
d If the Admi-
ralty perfect ship could nothbeineon
the short time it had been
ralty.had done so mubc
Improvements were constantly
vye.pento the charge of neglect-
ingaptihnet
stateappointed, t coofutlhdennoat
going on, and fifty years hence their ships might per-
great deal better than they were at present.
the Preach squadron getting under weigh in such
Anasto
Ps b
superiore a
style on the coast of Syria, he had been assured
by the captain of the Asia that when in port with three
or four of theso same French ships, they being all bound
) 4141iil 1.4 55 9101M111110'..) arls i sell

to the same place, it come on
t°
bi°lv
hard,
citl an A"
.Art. Asia
was the only ship that was able to get out.—(
was very easy to get up in that House and -13. .ear.) It
make such
charges and assertions as these ; to say.
t•I Jat our ships
were bad and our officers worse ; kat
believed the
navy was just as able as ever to Wit,inta,in its superiority
over that of other nations.
Sir T. TROUBRIDGE c',)ntended that so far from the
navy being deteriorated, 'At was then better than ever it
was ; there was less Planishment, less desertion, and the
men, as a 'class, v'-,ere better educated. There was as
good fish it the sea as ever came out of it.—(Laughter.)
Captair, P.ECHELL concurred with the Hon. and
Gallant 'Officer who last spoke. As to the French squa-
dron. e'n the coast of Syria, the superiority of which had
bee talked of, that very squadron when recalled to
France, was dispersed by a gale off the island of Corsica,
arid before it made Toulon, exhibited such a collection of
" lame ducks" as had scarcely ever been witnessed.
tie was glad to hear the Gallant Officer state his opinion
511 the independent manner he had done. He believed
-the naval force of the country was never in a better
condition generally, though there might be details in
which he differed with the Gallant Admiral opposite.
Ile thought that they ought to look well to the manner
in which they built their ships. No vessel performed
better or greater service than the Waterwitch, because
she had been built of good materials. He was very well
satisfied with the mode in which they were now build-
ing their vessels, and he thought the Hon. and Gallant
Member for Westminster must have alluded to
the ships which had been built some years
ago, when he complained of the manner
in which their vessels were built. He com-
plained that Mr. Brunel had been placed over
the head of Mr. Smith, the inventor of the Archimedean
screw, in directing the application of that excellent in-
vention to the Rattler steam-vessel. The speed of the
vessel had lessened from ten to eight knots an hour
under the superintendence of Mr. Brunel. He consi-
dered it a great wrong that those naval officers who held
appointments under the Government should have their
half-pay stopped from them. He had no objection that
the Hon. and Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir G. Cock-
burn) should receive his half-pay. Why not take the
opinion of the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General
as to their right to receive it? Was it not hard that
the Lieutenant-Governor of Greenwich Hospital, Sir
J. Gordon, who had lost a limb in fighting for
his country should have his half-pay stopped
because he held that situation? (Hear, hear.)
Another great hardship was, that the amount of the
income-tax was stopped from those naval officers who
were serving abroad. A reduction was also made From;
the engineers who were serving in tropical climates,
though one would think it ought to be bad enough to be
shut up in the furnace of a steam-vessel under the
tropics. He pointed out those disadvantages to the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
on a former occasion. They now looked to the lion.
and Gallant officers who served amongst them for relief
from those evils. There ought to be no party feeling on
a question of this kind.---(Hear, hear.) The present
Government boasted they were a strong Government.
He hoped they would, therefore, do away with those
evils of which the navy had to complain.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. CHAPMAN said he was sorry to hear from

the Gallant Officer, the Member for Westminster, that
the French showed themselves more expert than the
English navy in getting under weigh, for he was proud
of the British navy, and always wished to see it in a most
efficient state.—(Hear, hear.)
Captain ROUS explained. He had the greatest con-
fidence in the navy and the young officers, but if men
were allowed to remain on shore for twenty-five years,
he did not think they could be of much use when they
went to fight.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) If, however,
a war should unfortunately occur between this country
and the French, he would stake his existence upon the
result.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir G. COCKBURN,
Sir C. NAPIER said that he congratulated the House
and the country on the agreement which for once seemed
to exist between naval officers on both sides of the
House.—(Hear, hear.) He apprehended that this would
turn out to be of the greatest benefit to the navy of the
country. He recollected the Noble Lord the Member
for Staffordshire (Lord Ingestrie), whom he was sorry
not to see in his place, spoke of the unfairness of naval
officers combining against the Government.—(A laugh.)
But his (Sir C. Napier's) opinion was, that it was an ad-
vantage to the country at large to see naval officers
combining to reform all Boards of Admiralty—no mat-
ter whether Whig or Tory, it was equally indifferent to
him. They would see that the discussion which had
taken place that night would be followed by the most
tremendous effect on this Admiralty.—(Laughter.) It
was a fact that naval officers were so bowed down that
they dare not speak their minds. They were afraid to
say, " we want this or that," " this ship is bad," or " so-
and-so is wrong," because they knew it would not be
liked at head-quarters. The Gallant Admiral opposite
knew this very well, but human nature was such that he ,
could not help it.—(Laughter.) And if he wanted to sup-
port that assertion he needonly refer to what the Gallant
Officer said with regard to the Penelope. He stated that
she was a gallant vessel in paddles and box, that she
wan perfect and dry, and never shipped a drop of water.
Why it wasnotoriousto everybody but the Captain that,
so far from never shipping water, and he was never
above water—(Laughter)—that she was always under
water, and only came up, like a porpoise, once an hour,
to breathe.—(Much laughter.) That was known to every
officer on board. They wrote letters to him privately,
and they all expressed their opinions that she was
only fit to be drowned. It was an absolute fact.
He now came to the Albion. The Albion, of 3,000
tons, cost 90,0001. ; the Rodney, of 2,59 S tons, cost
75,0001. ; the Powerful, and ships of that class, of 2,484
tons, cost 68,0001. Now the House would see what was
gained in the Albion. It was intended to carry eight-
inch guns, 64 pounders. Why had not the Albion got
the eight-inch guns ?—(Hear, hear.) If the Albion
could not carry more guns than the other ships, what
was the use of building a vessel of that description? The
Albion mounted only six more guns than the Powerful,
and of the same weight, while she cost 22,000 L more
She carried her guns six feet four. A smaller ship of.
the-same weight of metal carried her guns seven feet
four. The Rodney, which mounted two more guns
than the Albion, carried her guns seven feet
eight and seven feet ten out of the water. He
would ask, what was the use of building ships of that
description? There were six now on the stocks. He
hoped the Gallant Admiral would take them to pieces.
It was perfectly absurd to persevere in the present
course. Some remarks had fallen from the Gallant Officer
opposite about the French ships. He begged to state
that he himself saw the French squadron under weigh
one or twice. The weather was fine.—(Hear, hear.)
The squadron got under weigh remarkably well. After
standing out to sea for two or three days, the vessels came
in and took up their positions. The cables and anchors were
run out, and the boats hoisted in in a superior meaner ;
and on one occasion he saw the Admiral's topsails reefed
in five minutes.—(Hear, hear.) Now the House was
well aware of his views on this subject. When officers
arrived at a certain period of life they became compara-
tively idle, and were contented to lie quietly at anchor
instead of exercising the ships as they ought to do. If
they appointed young officers to command their ships,
and young Admirals to command their fleets, he bad not
the slightest doubt that they would be superior to the
French. They had had a three-decker for three years
under an Admiral 75 years of age. He asked the House
to judge whether it was possible to bring up young offi-
cers properly under such a system ? It must be re-
membered that half the young officers of the navy were
trained on board the ships at Malta, at Sheer-
ness, and at Plymouth.—(Hearr hear.) It would
not be surprising if, under the existing system, the
French, the American, or any other navy, would prove
superior to our own. He attributed the evil to the con-
stitution of the Admiralty.—(Hear, hear.) He blamed
the Right Hon. Baronet for not acceding to the pro •
posal to vote 15,0001. a year as a retiring allowance for
the old officers in the service; sending them ashore happy
and contented, instead of suffering them to prevent
younger men from fulfilling their arduous duties.—
(Cheers.) If they wanted to have a fleet which would
be fit to compete with an enemy, they must appoint as
officers young men, of 40 years of age, and if they did
that they might defy the whole world. (Hear,
hear.) Before he consented to this vote, he
would be glad to know from the Gallant Officer
opposite whether, after two years' experience, he approved
of the present constitution ofthe Admiralty 2—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He would be glad to hear whether
or not he had changed the opinion which he expressed
when the subject was brought forward by the Right
Ron. Baronet, thirteen years ago, who impressed on the
House the necessity of consolidating the different
departments, and said that they must either have all the
officers at the Admiralty, or else the Board of Admi-
ralty must be removed to Somerset House ?—(Hear,
hear.) At present, the Admiralty performed its duties
partly in Whitehall, and partly at Somerset House,
the whole of the work fell upon five or six persons, who
had no responsibility at all.—(Hear.) If the same system
was adopted in this department which already existed in
the Ordnance, he believed the most beneficial results would
flow from the change. Without an alteration in this
respect, it was impossible to hope for improvement in
the navy.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said he should not give
any answer to the question of the Gallant Officer as to
the ;constitution of the Admiralty, except to say that so
long as he could do his duty he would remain there, and
when he could not he would retire.—(Hear, hear.)
The Gallant Officer, who dealt very much in assertions,
had made some statements in reference to the Penelope.
On that subject he begged to read an • extract from a
letter from Sir Charles Owen. It was as follows:
" During the time that the Penelope was under my com-
mand from the 6th to the 11th instant, there were
generally very heavy
.seas and very strong gales. I
directed her to steer right to windward, against head-
wind and tide, which she appeared to do without pitch-
ing in any degree or straining in any way, and she was
evidently perfectly dry."—(Hear, from the Ministerial
benches.)
Sir C. NAPIER said he defied the Admiral, unless he
were on board the vessel himself at the time, to form an
accurate judgment in reference to the Penelope.—(Hear
hear.) He would be glad to know what was the opinion
of Captain Austin, the officer in command. They had
heard nothing on that subject.—(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was for a sum not exceeding
2,9801. to defray the expenses of the office for the registry
of merchant seamen.
Captain PECHELL wished to know if the merchant
seamen were now fully and properly registered. If a
vessel sailed for London, and afterwards put into a dis-
tant port, were there any means of ascertaining the
persons on board? The Secretary of State for the Home
Department had given notice of a Bill to amend the Act
for the registry of merchant seamen, and therefore he
imagined that the present plan did not work well. Be-
fore he, sat down he would beg to state that he thought
the Gallant Admiral ought to have answered the ques-
tion of the Gallant Commodore as to what was Captain

~„

Austin's opinion of the Penelope. He thought the Ad-
miralty had done perfectly right to institute the experi-
ment, but the results of it ought to be stated fairly.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT admitted that the system
for the registry of merchant seamen did not work well,
but as his Right Hon. Friend had given notice of a Bill
to amend the measure, he thought it would be better to
defer the discussion until the Bill Should be before the
House.
Dr. BOWRING asked what was the number of sea-
men registered according to the last accounts ?
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT—About 12,000.
Capt. PECHELL wished for more information as to
the working of the system. It had been introduced with
a view to do away with impressment, but the shipowners
had complained much of the working of the system.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT was aware of those com-
plaints, and admitted that the system had not worked
satisfactorily, but he thought the present was not the
fittest opportunity for discussing the question.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was, that a sum not exceed-
ing 38,076/. should be appropriated for defraying the ex-
penses of the scientific department of the navy.
Captain PECHELL complained of the miserable ac-
commodation afforded to the hydrographers' depart-
ment in the Admiralty. It was a disgrace to the coun-
try. They were in arrears in the construction of their
maps and charts from surveys, because they had not ac-
tually space sufficient to get them up in. The whole of
the present building ought to be appropriated to the hy-
drographical department, and the other departments
should be removed to Somerset House, and he believed
that that alteration would have been made long since
had it not been for the wives of the residents in the Ad-
miralty. The ladies did not like to remove from the pre-
sent building.
Dr. BOW RING observed an item of 1,0001. a year
for scientific experiments. No money would be more
cheerfully voted, but he thought the House ought annu-
ally to be furnished with some account of those experi-
ments. He understood that a portion of this money had
been devoted to experiments, the object of which was to
endeavour to discover some substitute for steam power.
That was a most praiseworthy object, and he wished to
know if such were the case?
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT said that some galvanic
experiments had been tried, but he was not aware of any
other experiments having for their object the discovery
of a substitute for steam power. The greater part of the
sum, however, had been expended in giving rewards to
scientific men for important inventions:se dap •
Mr. WILLIAMS asked how the great falling off in
the sale of the Nautical Almanac could be accounted for?
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT—lnstead of a falling off
there has been an increase.

Mr. WILLIAMS—I beg your pardon—l see lam
mistaken.—(A laugh.)
Mr. A. CHAPMAN expressed the gratitude felt by
the merchant service to the Admiralty for the manner in
which they published the most valuable charts at a very
cheap rate.—The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 127,277/. was then proposed to defray the
e xpenses of our naval establishments in the dockyards.
Capt. PLUMRIDGE complained that the supply of
water to some of the dockyards was deficient.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT said that tanks were
always kept in the dockyards, and that they could have
more water if it were required.
Mr. TUFNELL wished to draw the attention of the
Government to the case of a most meritorious set of
officers, he meant the inspectors of the dockyards.
They had been originally appointed in 1835, and al-
though their duties were much more arduous than
those of the dockmen their salaries were only
1001. per annum, while the salaries of the dockmen
were 1501. When they were first established they
were only on duty five days in the week. They
were now on duty six days a week, and they had
not the advantage enjoyed by day-pay officers, of having
extra pay for extra work. Another point to which lie
wished to advert was whether the men employed in the
dockyards ought to have the enjoyment of the elective
franchise or not. He thought they ought, for he had
never seen a more independent set of men than the ope-
ratives employed in the dockyards.
Mr. BARNARD thought the subject of whether the
Government dockyards ought to be rated to the poor-
rates in the parishes in which they were situated ought
to be considered by the Admiralty. He thought it an
injustice on the other inhabitants of the towns in which

the dockyards were situated that those dockyards were
not rated the same as other property.
Mr. S. HERBERT could inform the Hon. Member
for Devonport (Mr. Tufnell) that the question of the
superanuation of persons engaged in the dockyards was
at present under the consideration of the Admiralty.

With respect to the observations of the Hon. Member
for Greenwich (Mr. Barnard) he had to state that all
houses in the dockyards which were beneficially °eel-
pied were rated to the relief of the poor, but those houses
which were occupied as offices were not rated. This
question had often been mooted in the Courts of Law,
and the decisions had always been in favour of the pre-
sent system.
Dr. BOWRING wished to know if any improvement
had been made in the mode of keeping store accounts?
The store accounts generally were very unsatisfactory.
The balance of stores had always been very inaccurately
known and very inaccurately reported.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that very great pains had been
taken to introduce an improved system of keeping the
accounts of public stores.—The vote was agreed to.
A vote of 22,426/. was next proposed, to defray the
expenses of her Majesty's naval establishments abroad.
Dr. BOWRING asked if this vote was meant to apply
to contemplated or existing establishments ?
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT replied, to existing estab-
lishments.—Agreed to.
The next vote proposed was, that a sum, not exceed-
ing 649,3241., be granted for the payment of labourers
and artificers in the naval yards.
Dr. BOWRING thought the nature of the vote
should be more distinctly specified. The House should
be informed how many Men were employed, and what
the rate of wages was.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the average rate of
wages was 4s. 6d. per day.
Sir JAMES DUKE said he understood that a very
pernicious practice prevailed in the Royal Hospital at
Greenwich, viz.—that of transmitting those unfortunate
patients who became lunatics to private asylums in
London, instead of being sent to the extensive and well
conducted establishment at Haslar.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said the matter had been
very recently under the consideration of the Admiralty.
It sometimes happened that inmates of the Royal Hos-
pital, Greenwich, were afflicted with a temporary insanity
which did not last longer than a month. Until the
lunacy became confirmed, the establishment at Haslar
had an objection to receive them.
After a few words from Captain Gordon, Mr. Williams
and Mr. S. Herbert, the vote was agreed to.
A sum of 298,3661. was voted for the purpose of de-
fraying the expenses of the works in the naval dock-
yards.
20,165 i. was voted for medical services.
On the motion that the sum of 61,6301. be granted for
miscellaneous services,
Captain PECHELL complained that the allowance
to captains was very disproportionate.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that the subject had been for
a considerable time under the consideration of the Go-
vernment, and he had no doubt that an arrangement
would be made to the satisfaction of the captains.
The next vote proposed was for the sum of 742,2961.
to defray the charge of the half-pay to the officers of the
Royal Navy and Royal Marines.
The vote was agreed to.
The next vote proposed was for the sum of 495,6261.
to defray the charge of pensions and allowances.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered that this vote ought to
be postponed until the Government had given an expla-
nation to the House of the continued increase in the de-
mand for this branch of the public service.
Mr. S. HERBERT justified the vote, and stated that
there had been no increase in this part of the public
service from last year. The reason why the amount ap-
peared so much larger was that many items were in-
cluded in this vote that came under a different head last
year.
After a short conversation between Mr. S. HERBERT
and Mr. MORE OTERRALL,

Sir C. NAPIER said there ought to be a more intelli-
gible principle of granting pensions to wounded officers.
Some years ago an officer received a pension for a wound
that was equal to the loss of a limb. Her Majesty reserved
to herself the right of granting pensions for services. If
he received a wound in one leg that made it two inches
shorter than the other, he should have a pension; but if
he was shot in both legs, so as to bring him upon an
even keel—(Great laughter)—he should have no pension
at all.—(Laughter.) Lie did think that in future, if an
officer received a wound, he should be examined by me-
dical men, their report to fix what pension he ought to
receive.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that if the wound
was not equal to the loss of a limb, he received a gra-
tuity, if equal to the loss of a limb he received a
pension.—The vote was then agreed to.
162,9591. was voted for defraying the expenses of civil
pensions and allowances.
On the vote of 160,8901. being proposed to defray the
expenses of transporting stores,
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL refered to several items
oinththeresamtheourne was a decrease.tinwhichthere Itwas appearedaninc to
increase
him,whi thatlstin
there ought to be either an increase or decrease
throughout.
After a short discussion, the vote was agreed to.
96,327/. was voted for the conveyance of convicts to
New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land.
On the motion for granting 432,5411. for the expenses
of the packet-service,
Dr. BOWRING said, that as he understood that the
packets were now engaged in far less extensive service
than they formerly were, he would be glad to know if
there was any objection to show how the money was ap-
plied. He also begged to ask whether there was any
probability of a communication being established, by
means of steamers, with certain portions of the Ottoman
empire ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had
no objection, to lay on the table the information which the
Hon. Gentleman desired. He could not hold out any hope
of the establishment of the communication in question.
In consequence of the arrangement with the French Go-
vernment, letters from Turkey could be received through
France at a cheaper rate, and in a shorter time than
they could be received by packet. He therefore thought
he should not be justified in demanding the Post-office
to incur this additional expense.
Mr. F. T. BARING complained that the times of the
starting of the Admiralty packets was never known ;
and suggested that a time table should be regularly pub-
lished.

Mr. MORE O'FERRALL wished that the contract
packet service should be taken under the control of the
Lords of the Admiralty.
The vote was then agreed to, and the House
resumed.—The Report was ordered to be brought up on
Monday.