The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-18 00:00:00

the country, and from what he could hear from the speeche '
made in that House, he believed no other party in the king-
dom could carry such a measure, except those now in
power.—( Hear, hear.) Allusion had been made to the
length of the debate. He thought it a matter of regret
that the debate was so lengthened, because a favourable oppor-
tunity was afforded to excite what he believed to be the con-
scientious, bu, at the same time misguided feelings of a large
portion of the British public. He regretted that clergymen
had on such oecasions considered it to be their duty to raise
such feelings in the minds of their flocks—feelings of hostility
and ill-will towards their fellow subjects and fellow Christians.
-(Hear, hear.) But on the other hand tho debate which
taken place in that House must go far to assnage those
feelings. He thought that when the public read speeches,
such as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Devonport this evening—speeches delivered night after night
since the debate began, it would go far to create a favourable
impression of the Government policy. When they read the
report of the speech of his Noble Friend for Dorsetshire—a
speech admirable for its tone and temper towards the people of
Ireland, and a speech which, while opposed to the measure,
appeared to him to state in the closest manner the anomalous
state of the religious instruction of the Irish people at this
moment, and which demonstrated, in the most logical manner,
that the step to which the Government had come was the most
equitable basis for the religious instruction of that portion of
the people. He thought that when the English public saw
that some of the advocates against the measure were obliged to
have recourse to the poverty of the Irish church—when they
saw advocates, not the least able, refuse to urge an argument
which had been urged on the House on every previous measure,
when a benefit was about to be conferred on the Irish people,
namely, that if the Government persevered in such a course,
England would lose its station among the nations of the earth.
When the public compared the speeches made upon both sides,
he thought they would not long continue in the present state
of excited feeling. In his opinion the chief boast of Eng-
lishmen was not their commercial prosperity, not the power
of the country in war, but the acknowledged superiority in
the civil liberty of the subject. And were they to be told
that a step in the direction of toleration would degrade Eng-
land among the nations of the earth ? The Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn, in a speech which he thought good
in itself, but better as an evidence in the present generation of
a more kindly sympathy felt by the Irish Protestants
towards their Catholic fellow-subjects. That Noble Lord,
who had supposed the case of a stranger visiting that House,
might have carried his supposition a little further—that a
stranger had actually visited that house—a great statesman—
whose high intellect was known throughout Europe, who,
though a Protestant, had been much among Roman Catholics,
a man eminent for high reputation and great learning, and phi-
lanthropy, and who would consider religious denominations
of all sorts on the same comprehensive and philanthropic
basis a man deeply studied in the principles of the
British Constitution, and if he had supposed such a strareer
watching the debates, would that Noble Lord nest have blushed
for shame to find the Imperial Legislature of this kingdom
disputing about a miserable pittance for the religious instruc-
tion of a portion of their fellow-subjects.—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) [The Noble Lord alluded to the Duke de Brcgl'e
who, on a former evening, was present during this debate.]
For his (Lord Levison's) part he cordially approved of the
measure, and would not weary the House by bringing further
arguments in favour of it. He was sorry for having trespassed
so long on the attention of the House, and thanked them for
the patience with which they had listened to him.
Mr. R. SPOONER said that if he had consulted his own
private feelings he would have given a silent vote, but as the
representative of a large community that felt deeply on the
question, he considered it to be his bounden duty to state, as
shortly as he could, the reasons which reluctantly obliged him to
oppose the Government. He did not treat this question with
any feelings of bigotry, neither did he mean to treat it as a
mere money question. He treated it as a question of a reli-
gious principle to which he would adhere as long as he held a
seat in that House. He agreed with the Right
Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had spoken
on a previous night, in the view which he had taken
upon this subject. He divided the opponents of the Bill into
three heads. The first resisted it because of the increased
amount. Now, he thought those who could vote for the small
sum could vote for the larger. But there was certainly this
broad distinction between the two grants, that whereas the
one was only annual and under the control of Parliament. this
was perpetual, and removed from that control. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had added that Parliament endowed
the Roman Catholic Church on a former occasion. He (Mr.
Spooner) denied that this was the case, and he made this dis-
tinction, that whereas the one Bill merely enabled Roman
Catholics to endow with their own money, this Bill would
endow a Roman Catholic establishment with State money.
The second class of objections he could perfectly understand.
They went upon the voluntary principle, but he could not
see how any Honourable Member who entertained such views
could vote for the second reading of the Bill.—( Hear, hear. )
To the third class of objections he declared himself zealously,
firmly, and conscientiously attached.—( Hear, hear.) He had
a strong religious feeling, on this matter, and never would con-
sent to endow the Church which, he really believed, taught
doctrines dangerous, unsound, and unscriptural. Upon this
subject he must open his mind freely, and declare that he
never, never would consent to the endowment of a Church
which, in his opinion, was dangerous to those to whom
its dangerous doctrines were taught doctrines so de-
lusive, and a Church which, at the hour of death,
instead of administering to its followers the comforts
of religion led them to trust to an awful delusion.—( Loud cries
of " Oh," from the Opposition.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
alluded to mistakes in translations, but this step was a delibe-
rate sanction of error, not an accidental encouragement of
mistakes in translations ; and they were voting a sum of money
for the purpose of teaching doctrines which they conscientiously
denied, and believed to be full of error, and to which he trusted
the House would never eonsent. Looking at the question as a
political one, and viewing it on the grounds advanced by his
Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, he could
not see its utility, although he firmly believed the Right Hon.
Gentleman and the Government were actuated by the best
motives, for what else but a high sense of duty, and a desire
to confer a benefit on the State, could have induced tisem to
make such sacrifices ? He, therefore, gave his Right Hon.
Friend full credit for sincerity and honest motives, and he trusted
the same credit for sincerity and honesty would be given to
himself. Ile would give an extract from a speech of a de-
parted Right Hon. Gentleman, one which had been quoted by
his Right Hon. Friend, not, however, very fairly quoted, for
the flight Hon. Gentleman had left out a most material part.
He could not mention the name of that departed Right Hon.
Gentleman without regretting that some younger Members of
that House had spoken of him so slightingly.—( Hear, hear. )
He (Mr. Spooner) had known him, perhaps not so intimately
as many Hon. Members of that House, but he was sure that
all who heard him would concur with him in this, that if a
conscientious discharge of leis duty as Prime Minister—if a life
devoted to his country—a man who met with his death at the
very door of this House in the execution of his office—if
such chime as these did not call for generous remembrance—it'
a conscientious discharge of all social public and private obli.
gations, which recommended him to the veneration of all who
knew him—if all those claims did not entitle his memory to
respect, he feared that few public men could hope to receive
it.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Percival said that "he disclaimed
the odious principle of intolerance ; but he observed, at the
same time, that the memorial of Roman Catholics, which was
the foundation of Maynooth, claimed no pecuniary relief. The
Roman Catholics promised to defray all expenses themselves,
and though Government and Parliament had given 8,0.01. in
aid of the object—(" Mind," said the Hon. Gentleman, " Mr.
Percival did not use the word perpetual")—that was no rea-
son that the country should be subjected to constant and in-
creasing demands fur a purpose for which no precedent existed
in aray age or country that of educating a priest-
hood differing widely from the Established Church."—( Hear.)
He conceived that they had, on the present occasion, begun at
the wrong end. They proposed to educate the priests, and
they said that the educated priests would enlighten the people.
If he really believed that they would be really enlightened, he
confessed that much of the sting would be taken away, though
that would not justify him in voting for the present
moasure. But they would be disappointed in this expectation.
If they educated the priests they would require to pay them. If
they did not pay them they would be obliged, as before, to
go among the ignorant and the poor, who had not the means
of paying them. He would ask what, under these circum-
stances, must he the nature of the machinery which the Roman
Catholic priests must use—what but exacting from the super-
stitious ignorance of the peasantry what they would not other-
wise get from them, spontaneous charity. The House might
depend on it that the people would not be enlightened, for ig-
norance wasthe parent of superstition, and superstition was
their very means of support. They had not been able to draw
from the Right Hen. Gentleman any declaration as to whether
this was to he a final measure, or whether they had in contem-
plation some future measures of a similar character,—( Hear,
hear.) He had well observed whether the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
reply to the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorset,
but the Right Hon. Gentleman answered only satisfactorily
upon one point and that was, nothing should induce them to
touch the funds of the Established Church, but not one word
did he say relative to the payment of the priesthood. He
( Mr. Spooner) thought that this would furnish a very bad
precedent, for the Government might come down et an after
period to that House, and using the same arguments as in the
case of Maynooth (for they had already broken down the prin-
ciple), say that they would pay the priests for them to
carry out the objects which they had in view when they intro-
duced the first measure. The very facts of the case enabled
every Member in that House to draw that conclusion. f he
Ministry seemed to be acting up sn the principle of giving the se
boons by instalments, anti he thought that the people of Eng-
land had a right to complain that they were likely to go further
and further until the Roman Catholic Church should be regularly
endowed. Let them go to every populous town in England,
justly
stated his Hon. Friend the Member for Warwickshire had
stated the other night, let them go to that county or to his
(Mr. Spooner's) part of the country, or in the neighbouring
counties, and there they would find schools, colleges, and
seminaries for the very purpose of creating congregations by a
display of pageantry, by a lavish expenditure, and by the at.
tractive character of the services they placed before the people.
If they had no other objects than t , gain congregations. why
not commence where the congregations really were ? Why not
themselves establish schools and colleges and seminaries in Ire-
land ? Why come to England and lavish their money in search
of' congregations? Ignorance was the grand work
on which they reared their superstructure. He
would now allude to another part of the subject;
but he would merely allude to it in a few words, and
he would quote on this subject the illustrious individual to
whom he had already referred. The Hon. Member then
quotedwhieh Hansardt
e d
the a
fo f3r
making
l . t Percivalhe
grant in
tl :0 8, to
hferodniepreca
May-
nooth a perpetual one. He now came to aseutbijing, and which
subject which
ich
had
caused him great surprise on the previous ev
metheriNtied eintbheerefaerrnNesetwaattreko,tn
aiofterofsttahtei
nigiotuhsaet.
in The
the Noble L or d,
remarkable
work of Dr. Christopher Wordsworth, it was stated—" that
whereas by all other countries, whether Protestant or Roman
Catholic, in which the Roman Catholic religion was
acknowledged, and sanctioned, and supported by the
State, every precaution was taken, and every safe-
guard was devised, to secure the temporal supremacy of
the monarch against the Roman power—in these realms alone
no such
nation ether
rautions were taken, and that here alone was `free
e with Rome.' The inglish nation," it continued,
" Pays for Maynooth, and the Pope governs it ; s.hal.l not, the
priest takes aneavOwe to
obishop swears to maintain
rights and royalties of St.
exer-
cise his sacred functions till
Rome. Priests, bishops, e r archbishops,the
expeal
is to them that we make over of
Rome, rather than thePs;uls'
support, or the Pope • .
to rule it 7" 1 he
of
Peter;behetnhcee
Papacy,
the Roman Pontiff; the
the archbishop may not exer-
and he has received the pallium of
arareaarAlalgtehmeevraassoaflsthoef
Queen Victoria, and yet it
establishments for the education of
He
ehe Roman Catholic
't'reTe h; osbeewt ewrebattbe,iparsemtbisees.
conclusiontb ati which the
ptoriebstes.
had admitted them
Rev. Gentleman and those who agreed w
—to have nothing whatever to say to that enormous (xis:rived ?
which they themselves admitted to be so greatly influential
formidable. It was a case, in his opinion, for a course ofland
cuyi'eanl to preserve the
con-
duct totally different. He would say to these gentlemen" Admit frankly and freely into your union and intercourse
that power which you acknowledge to be so great and exten-
sive. Accredit a Minister to the Vatican—receive a Nuncio
at St. James's—and see whether you cannot thus do what you
never can effect if you continue by the most miserable and
childish weakness to ignore the existence of a monarchy which
was great before England was a kingdom, and to which is yet
permitted the exercise of such tremendous power over every
portion of your cast dominions." Such was the statement

' of the Noble Lord. Yes, the Pope arcs strong, and they
in England must submit to him. He was followed in the same
argument by the Hon. Member for Canter bury. The whole
of his speech in substance was, " do that which absolutely con-
tradicts the Coronatien oath ; that which i- subversive of the
constitution of the country ; that which, if adopted by her
Majesty's Ministers, woole render them liable to impeach-
ment." He would tell the Right Hon. G,itlernen below him
that the country expected from the Government an entire and
unequivocal renunciation of the doctrines propounded by the
Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman.--( Hear, hear.) He
thanked the House for the attention with which they had aid
him in the expression of his honest opinions.
Sir J. GRAHAM said—Sir, the Right Hon, Member for
Devonport has expressed a wish that the debate upon this queetion
should not pass without some declaration on the part of
my Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government or of
myself, as to what the ultimate intentions of the Government
may be on this subject.—( Hear, hear.) It has been
complained of, on the other hand, that this debate
has been too much prolonged. (Ironiaal cheers. )
Sir, I do not think so. I think that neither the Government
nor the country has reason to regret the prolonging of the de-
bate.—(Hear, hear.) Because, Sir, I feel that in this moment
of excitement—in any moment of the greatest excitement—an
appeal to the feelings and understanding of the people of this
country never fails to produce the best results--( Hear, hear)—
and, I believe, that the appeal to their reason in the very matter
of this debate has already produced the best results, and that
the feeling which we are, not beginning, but carrying out—
(Cheers)—is triumphant —( Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Renfrew has stated that if we had foreseen
the storm which we were raising, we would not have pursued
our present course. But I beg to assure the Hon. Gentleman and
the House, that this proposition has been deliberately, earnestly,
and with forethought of all consequences introduced to the
consideration of the House by my Right Hon. Friend and his
colleagues. Sir, I deplore, as much as the Hon. Member fur
Birmingham can deplore, the division which this qu, stion
creates upon this side of the House. Sir, it is deeply painful
to me that there should be any division—it is deeply painful to
me that we should lose ( I hope the loss will not be permanent)
that we should lose for a time the support of those gen-
tlemen who, upon this side of the House, have declared them-
selves adverse to this proposition.—( Hear, hear. ) Whilst I
deeply deplore the loss of their support upon this occasion,
when we propose to the House a measure of great importance,
and one which upon our responsibility we could not fail
to propose, and we must not hesitate to persevere in. I think it
is our duty to redress any real wrongs of which Ireland ha'
to compain.—(Cheers. ) And I do not hesitate to say, that
this measure is a commencement of a better state of
things.—( Great cheering.) I must say still further, that I
act confident, that if we did not lay the foundation of that
better policy by this measure, any other would give way.—
( Cheers.) But what are the arguments on the other side ?
My Right Hon. Friend, the Member for the University of
Oxford, argues that the effect of the measure will be to
damage the Protestant Establishment in these realms—
whilst the Hon. Gentleman, the actual if not the virtual re-
presentative of the University of Durham, opposed the measure
because it was calculated to perpetuate that Establishment.
Yet, Sir, I have heard no speech so conclusive in favour of
the measure as that of the Hon. Member for Durham, who
spoke so fervently against all establishments and all endow-
ments —(Cheers.) But the Hon. Member at the same time
admitted that if it were not fur his opposition to establishments
of every kind, he would support the measure for its conciliatory
tendency.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Member for Edin-
burgh charges me with inconsistency as a Member of the Go-
vernment, in supporting this measure.--( Hear, hear.) He
says that the policy which we have hitherto pursued has been
to uphold the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Now, Sir, observe what is the answer of the Government to
that aceusation.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") '[he various
accusations against us repel each other, and many of
them refute themselves.—(Loud cheers.) Some Gentlemen
have told us that we were conferring greater strength
and permanence on the Established Church. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin says that the clergy are reduced
to the most grievous state, by the measures of those now in
opposition to the Government. Well, what was the first mea-
sure which he mentioned, as an instance of our inconsistency?
Why, the Church Temporalities Bill. But that was the mea-
sure of my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies.
( Cheers.) The next was the Tithe Composition Act. That
also was introduced by my Noble Friend the Secretary for the
Colonies. The measure was adopted by the Government of
Lord Melbourne, in 1834 ; and Lord Stanley and myself,
being in Opposition, gave it our most strenuous and decided
support.—(Cheers.) Of what other measure does the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin complain ? Why, of
the national system of education. That also was the work of
my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies.—( Cheers. )
Another Hon. Member complained that in all offices stransers
were preferred by the present Government. Is that the fact ?
—(Hear, hear.) When vacancies occurred upon the bench,
we preferred to the bench Pennefather and Blackburn, and
Lefroy and Jackson.—( Cheers.) But these are not the accu-
sations against which I think it most difficult to defend the
Government. But allow me to tell the Hon. and Learned Re-
corder for Dublin, that if he thinks the day when Protestant
ascendancy could be maintained in Ireland is not yet passed,
he is mistaken. —( Great cheering.) The day is passed—
( Renewsd cheering)—and I will not be one to attempt to go-
vern Ireland upon his principles.—( Very great cheering. )
Now, Sir, I think that so far as my consistency is concerned,
I have stated enough to show that uniformly, whether in
Opposition or in the Government, I have endeavoured to
act steadily up to the principles as enunciated by
us in the Temporalities Act. Again, in the scheme
of national education, and practically in principle, by the
Tithe Commutation Acts. With respect to the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite, I entertain but little difference with them, for I
have never expressed an opinion as an individual that I was at
all opposed to the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy of
Ireland. That point was raised repeatedly. 1 think it was
raised when I was in Opposition ; and I am Suite sure it was
raised two or three years ago ; and in the course of the dis-
cussion the Hon. Member for Kilkenny said with respect to
the endowment of the College of Maynooth. it was an arrange-
ment to which he would not give his consent. I stated then
that it was my belief, whatever might have been the circum-
stances which at any former period would have rendered such a
course impracticable, and although there existed an unwilling-
ness on the part of the Irish clergy and the British public to
maintain such an institution, yet my own private feelings
and judgment would not then prevent me from mak-
ing such an endowment. A slight differ nee, however,
has always existed between me and the Noble Lord
opposite, namely, with respect to the propriety of withdrawing
the funds for endowing such an insti town from the pro er y
of the Protestant Church Establishment in Ir, land. Upon that
point I have a decided opinion, and I have endeavoured to
aehere to it uniformly, and I still adhere to it, because I have
an insuperable objection to such an arrangemer.t. I repeat, I
have never swerved from that opinion—l have ever kept to
it, and certainly I will not give it up now. Now, Sir, the
lion. Gentleman the Member for Belfast, in common with
many other lion. Gentlemer who have addressed the House in
the course of this debate, has referred to a particular expres
-ion I used in my place in Parliament—not when in Opposition,
but since I have assumed office. It was used by me in 1842,
during the discussion on the Arms' Bill. Now I will beg the
House to remember the circumstances of that Act. I have
stated that some time before a discussion arose relative to this
institution, in the course of which it was announced to the
House that it was the intention of the Government to fulfil a
pledge which they had given in Opposition, to bring forward a
measure for the registration of county voters in Ireland, and
for enlarging the elective franchise in that country. It had
also been announced on the part of the Government, that they
intended to take an early opportunity to bring in a Bill
relative to the regulation of the municipal franchise
in Ireland. That measure was conceived in a spirit which we
had hoped and believed would have been most satisfactory.
Well, we redeemed all our pledges, given while we were in
Opposition, with respect to taking precautions against the con-
tinuance of perjury which might follow a defective registra-
tion. We took certain precautions which had the effect of
preventing a great amount of perjury in Ireland. We brought
in those measures which brought the county franchise upon a
defined and settled principle ; and in the year in which they
were introduced, and almost co-existent with these propositions,
measures were brought forward of a very different character,
certainly, on the part of the Government. It became their duty
to revive the Arms' Act, and certainly upon that occasion I (lid
make use of the expression which has been attributed to me,
but really I do net think it altogether fair that I should be
taunted now with having used it, seeing that it was suffi-
ciently explained in this House soon after it esaaped my lips.
The expression I used was " that concession towards Ireland
had already reached its utmost limits." I have said that that
expression was explained. I will do more. I admit that ex-
pression, and I regret having used it.—(Loud Opposition
cheers.) I say more, that where the feelings and interests of a
nation are concerned an intemperate or ungarded expression on
the part of a Minister is a serious offence. I say I am sorry
for having used it. I deeply regret it, and I can only say that
upon my conscience, and from the bottom of my heart, my at-
tachment to Ireland was better than my word.—( Loud cheers. )
Now, Sir, I am bound to say, that after I had used this ex-
pression the public mind of Ireland became very much ex-
cited, and the measures to which I have adverted, after they
had received the Legislative sanction, and notwithstanding they
were introduced for the relief and at the wish of the people of
Ireland, were all but rejected. The Government last year
acting upon a suggestion which had been thrown out
by an Honourable Member who sits on the opposite of
the House—l think it was the Noble Lord—the
Member for Tiverton, brought in a measure which, without
proposing on the part of the State a direct endowment of the
Roman Catholic clergy, enacted something which was less ob-
jectionable in principle. It was introduced by the willing con-
sent and co-operation of the wealthy landlords of Ireland, and
enabled them to leave property to the Roman Catholic clergy
which would progress and gradually reach endowments—
( Hear, hear.) I say her Majesty's Government directed
their attention to that subject, and we introduced
the question in'o this House after great deliberation.
'the measure certainly produced an effect which far exceeded
our expectations, and which satisfied us. It was a measure
which would be followed by, and must be productive of, the
greatest possible good. Individually a portion of the laoman
Catholic clergy had been opposed to that measure, and they
resisted it for a time with great force and strength. On the
other hand, it was supported by others of the clergy boldly arid
firmly, and they had co-operated with the Government in
effecting and carrying out that useful measure. The
hierarchy of Ireland were divided in oeinion with
respect to that measure, but the majority of them
have since aided the Government in carrying the measure
into op ration. Previous to the Bill which is now under the
consideration of the House being contemplated, the Roman
Catholic archbishops and bishops of Ireland sought fur an in-
crease of this grant, and the question then, for the first time,
presented itself to us. We felt ourselves that there was no-
thing wrong in principle—that there was nothing inconsistent
with our duty to our Protestant Sovereign, or to the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland—to increase the grant, because
it was not like a direct endowment. —( Hear, hear.)
No ! we were certainly not prepared to endow the
Roman Catholic clergy directly; but here is a particular grant
which the Roman Catholic hierarchy say, "If you will extend
we will accept," and seeing that there was no:objection to it on
principle, we thought it our duty to concede it. We give it
and the Roman Catholic clergy gratefully accept it. We
contend that in principle it is not only justifiable, but it is ex-
pedient, and hence the origin of the measure we are now dis-
cussing. Now, Sir, my Honourable Friend the Member
Gtr Dublin has commented on the speech made by my
Right Honourable Friend the Member for Edinburgh,
who has said that the money question of this grant
was unimportant, but my Hon. Friend the Member for Bir-
mingham considers it of great importance. Now, Sir, I must
say that the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Edinburgh on this point was put possibly with more
than his usual force; and it appeared to me to be perfectly
triumphant. In the question which we are now discussing,
there is though not in the letter at least in the spirit something
more important than the additional sum of money. But, as '1
said before, that part of the question has been triumphantly
disposed of.--( Hear.) Now, with respect to the religious
part of the question. 1 admit that, in the year 178.5, when
eively
tteaching
Maynooth was first founded—first recognised by a Parliamen-
tary vote, the religious question was then raised, whether a
Protestant State should establish and endow a seminary for
chinwgitthhethßeoir egi
mranliCaotuhs dolici
that to be a grave reli •question, and I believe it was so
e
considered at ths
cpirpi
lei snteh
time, or Lord od i o
n Kingsley would not have been
religious cn short,ceivea
xclus
all interfering
sent over to Ireland in the room of Lord Fitzwilliam, who had
held out, in his speeches as Lord-Lieutenant, expectations to
the Irish people of larger concessions than the Government

was prepared to give. Be it observed that, two years pre-
viously, the right of voting had been given to the Reman Ca-
tholics of Ireland, who had a great numerical superiority over
them Protestant fellow-citizens. But to return to the cir-
cumstances of 179:5. Lord Kingsley was sent to Ireland.
and although he Ras not authorised to mike promises of
future civet qualification to the Roman Catholics of that
country, yet hi' was distinctly instructed to propose to the
Government of the country 'further concessions to his Ma-
jesty's Catholicoßfomcaonmmons,and Mr. Farrell subjects.
Iho w.l AlterasChancellorconsulting of
Lord
Chancellor Clarke, Mr. Foster, who was then Speaker of the
xchequer, Lord Kingsley sent to the Home Govern-
tHhoeus*E.
ment, and advised them to grant the Act of 1795, which
endowed the College of Maynooth. The Home Government
deliberated upon that proposition, but I must first state to the
House, before going further, that the Home Secretary of
the time was Mr. Foster, who was Chancellor of the
University of Oxford. The measure of 1795 was adopted by
the Home Government, and the Bill was submitted to the con-
sideration of both Houses of Parliament. It is impossible
that more cautious deliberation could have been given to the
matter. Well, that Bill became law, and it proceeded in die.
tinct terms to endow the College of Maynooth as it is now es-
tablished. Yet it is said that we are now discussing for the
first time a Bill which recognises by vote the ex-
istence of the Roman Catholic religion and hierar-
chy in Ireland. But, Sir, I deny that proposition.
There is nothing in the constitution of this country which ren-
dered it impossible, impolitic, or inexpedient to endow a semi-
nary set apart for the Roman Catholics. Without the inter
ference of religious education, the Government directly recog-
nised the Roman Catholic religion as existing in Ireland with
its hierarchy. How do I endeavour to show that? First of
a.l, if any bye law was made respecting tie College, it should
come to the Lord-Lieutenant, who had the power of giving it
his veto, tnd when it was thought expedient that trustees
should be appointed, Protestant, were appointed as rustees, as
well as Roman Catholics ; and or, account of more interference
being displayed in the affairs of the College by those who were
Protestants, it was ultimately thought expedient that they
should be abrogated. But to show the connexion between the
State and the College of Maynooth, it is only necessary to show
that every bye-law must be submitted and has been for fifty
years subnii•ted to the Lord-Lieutenant for his sanction ; they
submit a bye-law and he can sets) it, and it can only become a
bye-law by his having given it his veto--([dear, hear.)
A president of the College cannot enter on his du
ties without his having been acceded to by the Lord-
Lieutenant. I hold in my hand a return which was laid on
the table of the !louse of Parliament, which showed by the re-
gulations of the College of Maynooth, according to the bye-
laws, the number of students receiving endowments, for they
were fixed to a certain number. which had been distributed
amongst different Bishops of different districts in Ireland, and
there is further stated in this return from Maynooth the name
of each stude'.t and the name of each diocese. Now here is a
bye-law sanctioned by the Lord-Lieutenant and laid on the
table by order of the House of Lords, showing how the Roman
Catholic religion and its hierarchy were recognized by the
State. It is stated that all those who object to this grant on
account of the voluntary principle might entertain a doable oh-
jectien in this case because the grant is abut to be increased.
I do not think that that reasoning is very effective, and if there
is any principle in the objection on the part of the Protestants,
that principle is violated by the application of the public funds
to numerous endowments in the colonies ; they are not only
given to the orthodox Presbyterians, but also every year we
are in the habit of voting a sum to the Presbyterian establish-
ment in Scotland, and to the Dissenters in the Hebrides. I
think that there are no religious grounds for objecting to a
practice which has for so long a time been uninterrupted. I
will not rely on a compact, that has been already argued; I do
not think that there was a compact, but I think that there was
a nominal engagement which the Parliament ought to recog-
nise. Some state that there was a compact, it transpired after
the Union. It has been shown that a compact existed for
twenty years, and, at the expiration of that period, the matter
was reconsidered, and the Government, by the adoption of the
endowment, bound themselves to the contract acain. Whether
it is the matter of a compact or of an honorary engagement, I
think that it rests on the strongest possible grounds ;
but I do not wish to rest it on any such grounds.—( Hear,
hear.) I look upon it in this light, that seven millions of
the population of Ireland profess the Roman Catholic
religion.—( Cheers.) I differ altogether from the Hon. Gen-
tleman who has just. sat down ; he said that the Roman Ca-
tholic religion was an awful delusion.—( Cheers and laughter. )
I agree with the sentiments laid down in the admirable speech
of the Hon. Member for Devonport ; I am a sincere uncom-
promising Protestant ; I am not ashamed to be a Protestant;
but still I cannot for a moment imagine that the Roman Ca-
tholic religion is an awful delusion.—(Cheers.) I remember
that it is a Christian creed, that it is the creed of the great
majority of Christians—( Hear)—and though there is an impor-
tant difference between the Protestant acid Roman Catholic
religion, yet we agree with them in the main points, and to
say that the Roman Catholic religion is an awful delusion,
would be the destruction of every religious hope. I do not
deny that the policy of Great Britain to that country has been
at different times cruel—(Cheers—but the people always ad-
hered to their religious tenets most uninterruptedly. Penal
laws, penalties and privations have be-n equally unsuc-
cessful in destroying their religious feeling. The Roman
Catholics are now the great majority of the population of the
people of Ireland, and are one-fourth of her Majesty's subjects
in the United Kingdom. You cannot interrupt them ; but
they are now willing to accept this small boon in aid of the
educati. n of the clergy who are to be spiritual advisers of the
greater number of the people. Can we then refuse a grant so
accepted and so offered on the grounds of a religious princi-
ple ? On the contrary, I think that the religious principle
has been settled fifty years ago. We cannot
refuse it through pecuniary motives, for such would be beneath
our contempt ; it is nothing for us, and it is everything to
those who receive it. I will now refer to what was stated by
my Honourable Friend with respect to the institution itself.
He commented on the miserable appearance of the professors
and students. Why do you keep them beggars and then blame
them for being so?—(Cheers. ) They were, after all, the
clergy of the people, and they must be taught.—( Loud
cheers.) I do not believe the assertion that they be-
long to the lower grade of society. They are drawn
not from the lower class, but from the middle class. They
are trusted by the people, and they perform their duty to the
people. There exists the power of constant visitation, and
we have commur.ication with the president, who inspects the
seminary. Mr. Ft ank land Lew is, who was the head of a Com-
mission to inquire into the system of education in Maynooth
in lB'3i, assures us that he was for two days present at the
College examination, and that the curriculum of ecclesiastical
education was such as to ensure honours in any of the English
Universities. The facility of turning English into Latin,
he says, surprised him, and that, as a literary
seminary, it is by no means to be despised. Now,
let me ask some Honourable Xlembers who have opposed this
measure upon grounds affecting the interests of Irish landed
proprietors, one ter two questions. Suppose that certain Mem-
bers of this ~ouse happen to be Protestant landlords, and that
they have a Roman Catholic tenantry on their estates, I would
asic these Gentlemen would they prefer an uneducated
pepulation to take charge of the cultivation of
their estates, instead of a number of well-in-
formed, educated gentlemen ?—( Hear, hear.) I be-
lieve I need not wait for a reply.—(Cheers. ) I will not go
over the various points already discussed before this House
upon this subject, for I should only weary the House by doing
so, without perhaps s•rengthening my argument. I shall
therefore content myself by saying that I have the strongest
and deepest conviction that, such is the feeling of grati-
tude in heart in the Irish people, and so keen
their sense of being laid under obligation for fa-
vours conferred, that they will thankfully accept this
measure as a boon, and that the result will be to bind them to
this country by bonds more enduring than any hitherto known,
and that the union between the two countries will become
more lasting than ever, because it will now be consummated by
the blessings of happiness, peace, and good feeling; and Ihp
happier days for both countries will: be the result. I do
think, besides, that this measure will tendto the better security
of the Protestant Church, both in this country arid in Ireland
—(Cheers)—but I deny that a refusal of it will have any such
effect.—( Hear, hear.) There are many ether important ques-
tions bet' ire the Government in reference to Ireland;
but this is on I
of the most' important of them all,
and, therefore, tell you that, after having daeply
and painfully reflected upon it, I feel satisfied that no
proposition of the State could be brought forward, the rejec-
tion of which would be attended with more dangerons conse-
quences to both countries.—( Loud cheers from both sides of '
the House.) I have listened to the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber, who may well be called the father of this House—he is a
Gentleman of great and many years' experience, and
one of undoubted authority upon all questions upon
which controverted opinions may exist.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear".) That Gentleman has stated frankly and
fairly his opinion upon this subject, but he has also stated
what he considered to be the justice of it more strongly than he
has upon any other measure. And what did that Hon. Mem-
ber say? Why, that he came down to the House last night,
and declared that though no circumstances could compel him
to give a vote upon such a question in favour of it some time age,
yet he now felt so convinced of its justice and necessity, that he
never gave a vote that afforded him more sincere
gratification, and therefore he gave the measure his most cor-
dial support.—( Loud cheers.) Some Hon. Member behind
me has laughed; but I say this is no laughing matter; it is a
measure introduced to this House, after having received the
approbation of her Majesty, and above all, it is one that will
be received in Ireland with feelings of the deepest gratitude ;
but the rejection of it would be attended with results that
would spread the greatest dismay in that country, and the
greatest excitement in this.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. MA CLEAN next rose to address the House, but he was
speaking for a considerable time before a word he uttered
could be heard in the gallery, owing to his own low time of
voice, and the continual noise kept up by the incessant crowd
of Members, who thronged the door-way, in their eagerness
to leave the House. He was understood to say that this
proposiGes of the Government had placed the country in
circumstances of great and peculiar excitement, for he
contended that the proposition was one which involved a
violation of principle. tie would ark, was there a doubt
upon the mind of any rational man that the result of this
measure, if carried, would be, that the Government would be
called on to pay the Roman Catholic Clergy ?--( Hear, hear.)
He did not speak in any hostility to that Church. He would
not advert to the arguments respecting the destitution of the
Catholics.—( Hear, hear. ) The measure now before the
House went to prevent the evil of which his Hon.
Friend had complained, and he had asserted that it was the
reasonable result of this measure that they would not send
the Catholic priests into the world to live on the eleemosynary
provision of their flocks; that if they intended to make them
communications
gentlemen, they should not leave them with the prevision of
nhee), Might
beggars. lie had been much astonished at the speech of his
iaidhsto the
Honourable Friend the Member for Ne-
wark
of his
thehi
head of the Government, seemed s
gl'hto' H in
ourathble e Baronetur
not to have understood
the reasons on which he left the Cabinet, or at least not to
have made them clearly known to the House. It' the plea were
to he put forward, that this grant was to be made in considera-
tion of the number of the Roman Catholic subjects of her oneo
Ma-
jesty, on what principle, he would ask, was it that they refused
endowments to the numerous congregations of Dissenters.
If the project introduced by her Majesty
s Ministers had been
merely fur the improvement of academical education, he
(Mr. Maclean) conceited that no objection would have been
made to any such relief to the Roman Catholic subjects of her
Majesty in Ireland. But when the advantage to be COl-
termed on the College of Manooth, was not only to place
it on a level, but above theposition of Oxford, Cambridge
,
and Dublin, it was not to be wondered at that in that
House great opposition should have been offered to the mea•
sure, nor could it be matter of surprise that the clergy of the
country pp
should have been oosed to this grant to the College,
when it was recollected what had been the opposition of the
members of the College to the Church of England. And when
he recollected what these doctrines were, he was surprised,
thongh he could not but admire the zeal and ability
which characterised the speech of his Noble Friend the
Member for Newark (Lord John Manners), when ho spoke
of that portion of our eventful history by which the religion of
these kingdoms had been settled, and which he (Mr. Maclean)
must look upon as one of the greatest events in the annals of
the country. The Noble Lord had spoken of the stadtholder
of Holland as merely the agent of that Dutch conquest
which had unsettled the Rornish religion in these realms,
but he must continue to think that the stadtholder of Holland
was one of the greatest characters of that history, and that had
it not been for him their country never could have en-
joyed the advantages of religious education which it now pos-
sessed, and those many advantages which had towed from it.