The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-21 00:00:00

Nearer to 475. 6d. than to 605.; we did business at both prices, but it was done
principally at 475. Gd.
Can you state the current rates of freight during the last season, from the lower
ports of the Baltic ? From Memel 20s. to 21s. •
Was that about the rate of the average of the lower ports ? Yes, it was.
Can you state the current freights from the lower ports of the North American
colonies, to the west coast of the kingdom ? From five to ten shillings a load
higher than to London, on account, of the different mode of measuring ; a different
mode of measuring prevails, which makes the nominal freight higher.
Then in point Of fact, after making allowance for the difference of measurement,
the rates of freight are nearly the same ? I think nearly so ; rather less in point
of fact to the west coast than to the east.
Then how do you account for the circumstance you have stated, that vessels
employed in the trade making on an average only one voyage, or a voyage and
a half in the season, carry timber at, the same rate of freight as they do where they
make two voyages in a season ? If a ship makes a voyage to London, she is more
conveniently situated for a voyage to the Baltic, than if she comes to Liverpool, if
she comes to the west side of the land she is more conveniently situate to make a
second American voyage.
Can you state the current freight of timber from Memel, or other lower ports of
the Baltic, to the west coast of the kingdom ? From one-third to a half more
than to the east coast.
That tact is within your own knowledge ? Perfectly.
Then the committee are to understand, that the freight from Memel was from
265. to 30s. to Liverpool ? Liverpool imports so little from the Baltic, that I
should rather say the freight to Bristol was 28s. to 30s.
What relation does the measurement of Bristol bear to that of London ? The
difference on American timber, between Bristol and London, will be from 12 to 18
per cent, according as the timber is well or ill squared ; from Memel the timber
being better squared, the difference will be found to be not above 5,6, or 7
per cent.
Do you know that the merchants who are in the habit of importing timber from
the British provinces of North America have given ship-owners who have applied
for freights notice, that if any additional duty is imposed on timber from North
America, they must have a proportionate reduction of freights for the ensuing
season ? They have said they will not be able to take any ships at all ; they have
told me so repeatedly.
Do you happen to know, that in consequence of the expectation of a duty
being imposed immediately upon the American timber, the ship-owners raised the
price of freight upon the merchants immediately ? On its being understood that
ships would be allowed to make one voyage, the ship-owners immediately attempted
to obtain an advance of freight, thinking that a large number of ships would be
wanted to make that single voyage ; in fact every ship would have gone to sea.
Are you acquainted with the prices of timber in the Liverpool market? I can
give them pretty nearly.
State what was the price of American yellow pine timber three months ago in
that market ? It was down as low as fifteen pence per foot.
State what is the present price of such pine ? I think about sixteen to seventeen
pence ; I know it has improved about a penny or twopence a foot.
You admit an advance of some importance has taken place in that market ; to
what circumstance do you impute that advance? To the market being depressed
from the extreme importation at one particular moment, and to a sort of re-action
which takes place every day.
Is it not, in point of fact, in contemplation oe some duty being laid on American
timber ? I should not think it is ; lam quite certain that in London not an advance
to the smallest fraction has taken place on such a speculation.
Is it not a fact, that in the. Liverpool market considerable purchases of timber
have been made on speculation, with that result in view ? lam net competent to
answer that question.
Have you heard that has been the fact in the London market? I am satisfied
that in the London market there has not been an advance of a single fraction ;.with
what secret views purchases have been made, I cannot say. ,
Have you heard of large perchases in wood being made by dealers lately ? I
believe none have been made ; I only heard of the purchase of 500 loads, which I
thought was purchased with a view to the duty.
You have stated that the causes of the difficulty at present felt by the shipping
interest, arise from the demand for transports having ceased, and from more com-
petition -existing with foreign countries ; are not the committee to infer from that,
that the existing state of the shipping very much exceeds the natural demands
of thii country ? If the American trade remained open to us, and we had in other
respects a brisk trade, I am satisfied there is not a ship too much in the country,
because in 1818 when we had something like briskness in trade, we were rather at
a loss to find ships than to find freights ; from that time to this it has been always
the reverse, but in 1818 I am satisfied we were often at a loss to find ships so quickly
as the merchants required them.
Is not the price of freights at the present moment, a proof that at this time the
shipping is very much beyond the natural demands of the country ? At the present
moment certainly, because we conceive the trade of the country to be very much
stagnated at present.
'Do you think that the amount of shipping which was employed in transports,
and which has ceased to be employed as such, would have been built with a view
to the natural demands of the country ? I think the American trade has taken off
the whole quantity that was employed for transports. I believe the number of ships
in the transport service never exceeded 1,020, and I find that latterly that number
has been employed in the American trade, over and above such quantity of tonnage
as would have brought the same wood from the north of Europe ; therefore I con-
ceive that the American trade has taken off the surplus tonnage arising from the
cessation of the demand for transports.
Then how do you account for the depressed state of the freights at present?
Because, as I have said before, trade is very much stagnated at present ; if we had
ordinary briskness in trade, the American trade remaining to us, I do not believe
we should feel that.

Have you any reason to believe that the American trade can be carried on so as
to continue to employ its present amount of shipping ? I think the American trade
has been overdone within the last year or two, as every other trade has been.
You have stated that the ship-owners are proceeding in that trade, at a loss ?
Decidedly.
Is it possible they can continue to go on with that trade at a loss ? They find
that their ships get more injury from lying by than from going to sea, and there are
a certain number of persons, apprentices and others, employed about a ship, who
must be paid whether the ship is employed or not ; that the ship goes to sea not only
with the prospect of loss, but really with almost certain loss before their faces ;
they do continually send their ships to sea. -
When spoke of the building of ships in the north of Europe, did you speak of it
as applicable to Norway only, or to all the. countries in the north df Europe ?
I spoke very much with reference to Sweden, which is a large ship-building
country.

' Not to Prussia or Russia ? Also with reference to Prussia ; and having in my
view a very recent instance of a ship built in Prussia; with respect to Russia, nothing
I apprehend, would tend so much to give her a commercial navy, as encouraging
her to build ships in Russian Finland, where they can build cheaper, perhaps,
than in any other part of the world, and very large ships.
Do you know that, some time ago, a certain'numberof Russian ships were em=
ployed in the timber trade, and that in consequence of the cheapness ofEnglish ships,
they were laid aside ? I know that ships, which had been employed under licences
during the war, and were remaining on hand at the return of peace, were attempted
to be employed in the wood trade ; I believe those ships have ceased to be so em-
ployed, and have been disposed of in any way they could be ; but I take them to be
no criterion for the general state of the country, inasmuch as they were owned prin-
cipally in England, and not at all under that sort of economical management, which
a ship belonging regularly either to Russia or elsewhere, has the advantage of.
If the comparative advantages in favour of the ships of the north are.so great as
has been stated by you, how do you account for the English ships having preserved
so great a proportion of the trade as they have ? I can only state the facts, and
refer to the official reporti, to shew that such respective quantities of shipping have
arrived in this country ;, I believe that neither of them are making money.
Be good enough to inform the committee what quantity of timber in loads was
imported from the British North American colonies to this country, in each of the
last two years ? Extracting it from the official. report presented to the House of
Lords, I can give it for 1818 and 1819, if that will answer the purpose ; the
quantity of timber imported from British North America, in 1818, was 214,102
loads, in 1819, 267,085 loads.
What quantity do you consider may be about the average of each cargo ?
Three hundred to three hundred and fifty loads.
Is not the average tonnage of shipping, employed in that trade, nearly 300 tons?
Very nearly, I think, 280 to 300 tons.
Then is not 330 loads a moderate average? There are many small ships come
to the bye-ports.
Is not 350 loads a moderate average to estimate their cargoes by ? Not if you
are looking to timber ; there will always be at least fifty loads of broken stowage.
Fix what you consider to be a fair average of cargoes ? In the year 1819, there
were upwards of 1,500 voyages made in the year; the ships, upon an average of
the whole kingdom, do not make more than one and a half voyage in a season.
In speaking of the number of ships employed in the transport service, I have
stated the extremest number of ships, employed in that service, at 1,020; that
was not the number at the conclusion of the war.

How many do you think ? I-should think seven or eight hundred.
The committee are to understand, that your conclusion is founded on your
estimate, that the ships so employed do not make a voyage and a half in.a year ?
Just so.

Can you form any idea, with-respect to the tonnage of the British anti foreign
shipping bringing timber to this country from Russia ? I have no doubt that nine-
tenths of the wood from Russia comes in British ships, and perhaTs more ; nine-
tenths of the whole of the tonnage from Russia is British, by the official reports.
Is it within your knowledge, that in various parts of the country during the last
year, ship-building has been continued to a considerable extent ? It is within my
knowledge that it has been continued, but not to the same extent as the year
before ; and it is unavoidable, that, to a certain extent ship-building must go on, •
or those establishments be entirely broken up and abandoned.
Does the business of a ship-builder require any establishment which would draVi
him into expense, by abandoning his building for any time, or by reducing his
amount a building ? He must always have a number of apprentices ;• he must
always have premises, and always a stcck of timber, because he is not merely a
ship-builder, but a ship-repairer ; and if he could not,
,while his temporary jobs of
repairs are not going on, employ his apprentices, and take off such timber as has not
been used for repairing ships, by ship-building, he could not carry on his business.
His apprentices do not cost him much, do they ? lam not practically informed
upon that subject ; there is a whole establishment which must be kept up ; and cer-
tainly with respect to the past two years, Ido *not think a single ship has been sold
at a profit to the builder, though he has been obliged to build them. '
Have any new ships been introduced into the Canada timber trade, within the
last two years ? No, I dare say not ; Ido not know any instance.
Yonsay you are particularly acquainted with the shipping trade in the ports of
North and South Shields, and Sunderland ? Very much so.

D o you know the number of ships engaged from those ports in the Canada trade ?
In 1819 there were from North and South Shields, I think 209 ships, entirely en-
gaged in the American trade, large ships. •
How many men were employed in navigating those ships ? s The number of
men and boys employed in those ships in 1819 was 2,900.
You are of opinion, that if any new duties were laid on the Canada timber, a
very large proportion of those ships would be laid up, and the ship-owner would
be compelled to give up his voyage to Canada ? ram quite satisfied of that.
You are also aware that there is large ship-building in that river ? Yes.
You are of opinion that a duty imposed on the American timber will tend ma-
terially to injure the ship-building trade in that river? Yes, unavoidably.
Do you mean to state that any amount of duty laid on the colonial timber would
have that effect ? I would beg to say that I think a very small duty on American
timber, would have an advantage that would counterbalance the evils to be ap-
prehended ; but when I say very small, I lay great stress upon the words very
small ;I am satisfied it must be very small indeed. I refer to an advantage in
respect cf improving the quality.
Do you mean 10s. a load ? No, I mean 55.; but when I find that the freight
cannot possibly be lower, but requires an increase, and that the timber now does
not leave its ccst in the colonies ; it is difficult to say where any duty is to be got
frcm ; but still I would not conceal that there are some advantages attending a
very small duty.
Can you, from your experience as a man of business, suppose it possible that
merchants will continue, year after year, a trade which is unprofitable to them ?
Certainly not; I apprehend no merchant will continue, year after year,,in trade
that is unprofitable to him ; but a ship-owner is in that sort of situation, that even
if he sends his ship to sea to lose money, he is obliged to do it from circumstances
I before stated.

So that you would wish to give to the committee, as your opinion, that mer-
chants will go on trading to'a loss, that ship-owners will go on employing their ships
to a loss, and that people will go on building ships to a loss, for any length of time ?
Till they are ruined ; they have been doing it for the last two years progressively ;
the shipowners are so situated, that they cannot help themselves.
"What reason have you to suppose that any duty laid on the colonial timber, would
not fall upon the consumer of timber? I mean to say that a duty laid upon colonial
timber, which would have the effect of increasing the import from the Baltic,
would, principally affect the relative import from the two countries, without any
particular reference to the consumer.
Are you, therefore, of opinion, that if the colonial timber were 10s. a load higher,
the Baltic timber remaining at its present price, the consumption would turn from
the colonial timber to the consumption of Baltic timber ? Undoubtedly, to a
certain extent. ,
With a difference of 10s. ? To a certain extent ;if it were above that, it
would throw the consumption wholly on the Baltic.
What other interests do you apprehend would be affected, besides the shipping
interest, by any measures which should throw British shipping out of employment ?
In the first place, the foreign trade, particularly with Russia, by very much de-
creasing the demand for hemp, flax, and other articles which are consumed, and
particularly hemp, wholly by shipping; also the home trade, by diminishing the
demand for oak, fir, elm, iron, and copper ; a ship bound to the British colonies,
spends her whole freight either in this country or in the colonies ; a ship bound to
the Baltic, spends a very small portion of it here, and often goes to sea without
taking a single cask of Irish provisions ; a ship bound to America, will take from
eight to ten casks, but a ship to the •Baltic, can get every thing cheaper as soon
she gets to Elisneur.
Can they get a cask of provisions in Norway ? I am speaking of the Baltic trade;
I have no doubt the American trade has occasioned a consumption of some thousand
casks of Irish provisions annually, which would not otherwise have been consumed.
From what documents do you get that fact respecting Irish provisions, when go-
ing to America ? From my own personal experience; they get it in the port of Lon-
don, or wherever they fit out before they go ; a ship bound to the Baltic, gets all her
groceries and spirits at Elsineur, where she gets them free of duty ; there has been
about a million of money within the last two or three years paid annually for freight
in the colonial trade, the whole of which has been circulated either throughout
England, or the colonies.
You have stated, that a considerable number of ships, to the extent of nearly
1,000, were employed in the transport service during the war, and that have
since been engaged in the merchant service ; were not many of those ships built
for Chat service ? and was not the remuneration they received, whilst employed in
it, an inducement tp the building of those ships, they considering it a compensation
for the risk the owners took upon themselves, cf not finding beneficial or regular
employment for them on the return of peace ? The transport service was very
profitable; and I have no doubt many ships were built with a view to it.
Mr. TViitiam Wilssn, called in ; and examined.

In what office are you ? Searcher in the customs at Quebec.
How long have you resided in that part of the world ? I went cut there in the
beginning of the year 1802, and have resided there till last November, and am
about to return. _ _

Are you acquainted with the durability of timber of that country ? I have had
a knowledge of a number of buildings of wood of that country; houses that were
standing at the time that I arrived in the country, and are standing now ; to all
appearance I should suppose they had been standing many years prior to my goiog
to the country, and I left them standing, many hundreds.
Have you heard of many houses there being infected with the dry rot ? No,
never ;n my life. I never heard that mentioned in the country.
Has Use population of Canada been much encreased of late years ? Very much
encreased, chiefly from the Irish and Scotch emigrants ; there have been some
English, but chiefly Scotch and Irish.
Has the timber trade furnished considerable employment to those emigrants?
Undoubtedly, a great deal of employment.
In what way? In cutting, and. about the wharfs, and about the town, in dif-
ferent ways.
Do you confine their occupation to the town and its neighbonrhood? No, not
a twentieth part ; I am told that they are employed up the country, but I have
not been up the woods.
Do you know whether they are employed in agriculture, or in the woods ? I
am told considerably in both.
Do you happen to know that it is usual to cut by gangs of Americans, who come
down for that purpose ? There is a great deal cut by both ;an immense number
of logs are cut by the Canadian farmers themselves, where there are no Americans
employed.
Do you know the fact, that there is wood cut by any Canadian farmer, with a
view to exportation ? Yes, a great number by Canadians in the neighbourhood
of Quebec.
Did yqu ever hear of any Scotch and Irish emigrants employed in cutting trees
in the forests ? Yes, Scotch and Irish ; not that I have seen them, not having
been up the country ; there is a person of the name of Kennedy, a Scotchman,
who brings down immense rafts.
Is Kennedy a farmer or a woodcutter? He is both a farmer and a lumber mer-
chant; he brings it down from the woods; he cuts it down, and brings it to Que-
bee ; there are a father and three or four brothers.
Do you know any thing of the wood from the United States, which comes through
Canada? I have heard it mentioned that there is some oak and pine that comes
from the territory of the United States.
Do you know to what amount? No, Ido not; I have not any knowledge of
the quantity.
Do you know any means that there is of distinguishing that which comes from
the United States, and that cut within our own provinces ? No, Ido net; at the
present time there is a Mr. Campbell here, who is in the lumber trade at Quebec,
and he is a cutter of timber, and also a merchant. • _

Would the farming population of Canada, who are at present employed in the
timber trade, find any other employment, if that trade were discouraged or dimi-
nished? I should suppose an immense number of them would find very great
inconvenience, and would suffer very much, because the timber is cut in the winter
season, when they have no other employment but that cutting; when there are
perhaps six or eight feet of snow on the surface of the earth, it is impossible for
them to till land or any thing of that kind; they have nothing to do but to cut
the lumber; there, is no other occupation they can attend to but that.
Would the inhabitants of Canada have the same means of paying for British
manufactures, if their exports of lumber were diminished? No, certainly not.
Do you think any considerable emigration from the province would be the con-
sequence of any material diminution of that trade? It is very probable; I think
that a great number of people would go to the States; a great number of the Scotch.
Are you not aware th.at at present the tide 'of emigration sets very strongly in
from the States to Upper Canada? No, lam not.
Are you acquainted with Upper Canada? No, lam not much ; no further than
I have heard mentioned; 1 have a knowledge that a great number that come to
Quebec as emigrants, go through directly into the States.
Does not the timber form a material object of exportation From Quebec? Yes,
it is in fact the staple commodity of the country, that if that trade is cut off, the
country will be totally ruined.
Were you acquainted with the country before the existence of that trade, so as
to state to the Committee whether those provinces were not then in a state of
tolerable prosperity and affluence ? No, it was d very poor place indeed at the
time there were but about 100 ships went there in the course of a year; the country
was not a tenth part in affluence what it is now ; the province has become a power-
ful country since that period. since the years 1807 and 180,8.
You ascribe that principally to the timber trade? Yes.
Is it not a natural consequence that it is from the means of that timber trade, that
the inhabitants are enabled to derive their supplies from this country ? Yes, I
consider it in that light. . _

[Adjourned till To-morrow, one o'clock.

Veneris, 23 die l'ebruarii, 1621.
The Right Honourable THOMAS IVALLAcE, in the Chair.
Mr. John Diston Powles again called in; and further examined.

Adverting to the evidence you gave yesterday,,as to the number of voyages made
in a season by ehips employed in the timber trade to the British colonies in North
America, state to the committee the result of your further investigation upon that sub-
ject? I have looked particularly to the ships which I have had to do with for the years
1819 and 1820, and I have this morning communicated with two or three prin-
cipal brokers in the same trade for the same purpose, and I find, that of ships
coming to the east coast, not more than one in five has made two voyages in a
season ; to the west coast they most generally make the second voyage ; I dare
say, perhaps nine out of ten, or nineteen out of twenty, may have done it upon
an average ; therefore I am satisfied, that when 1 said yesterday a voyage and a

- •
half was made on the average by every ship in the trade, I rather overstated it
than understated it.

Those ships that have made only one voyage from the east coast, at what period
of the season have they generally sailed from hence ? I speak of ships sailing in
the early part of the year, in the month of April. In the very early part of April ;
the ship-owners, especially in the north of yaigiapa, have found a second Voyage