The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-14 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. Alilertnan WooD gilye notice, that he
won!d, to-morrow, move for leave to bring in a
1141 for promoting the Trade and Manufactures
of Ireland

The Mai( Duty Bill Was read a third time and
passed.

The Cotton Factories Regulation Bill wen(
0110110) a Connittee.—The Report to be receiv-
ed to•nturrow.

PENRYN.

Sir C. BURRELL moved the 2d reAding of the
Bill t►►r altering the Frantl►ises of the Borough of
Peoryn.

Sir C. 1-lAwKisls opposed it as inflicting pains
and penalties on kis Constituents.

After a few words from the Hon. Mover in
reply, the Bill was read a 2d time and committed
for to-morrow,

MR. HOBHOUSE'S PAMPHLET.-BREACH OF PRI-

VILEGE.

Mr. COURTENAY moved, that the Order of the
Day for the attendance of Robert Stodart be
read.

Mr. EtAtcr3 rose and said, that the writer of
the Pamphlet which had led to this motion, in or-
der to prevent any trouble to this House,. or to
the Printer and Publisher, had authorized him to
avow his name, and to state his readiness to at-
tend to any order made by the House. lie had
therefore to communicate the name of John Cam
Hobhouse.

Mr. COURTENAY said,' that notwithstanding
what had been mentioned, and his willingne,s to
coincide in any course, having for its object to
save time and trouble to the House, he still
thought it would be necessary to have the Pub-
lisher brought to the Bar, however much the
statement made by the Hon. Gentleman might af-
fect their ulterior proceedings.
The Order was then read, and the SPEAK ER put
the question—" is it the pleasure of the [louse
that Robert Stodart he now called in," which be-
ing agreed to, he was called in accordingly, and
placed at the bar.
The SPEAK ER is your name ?
A.—Robert Stodart.

The SPEAKER.—Look at that pamphlet ; was
it published by you ?
A,—Yes.

•
[I3IIIOE SVTRNPENCE.

The SPEAKER—DO you kuuw the halite of the

aorhor ?
A.—Mr. linbhouse.
The :-..PEAXGR—State his Christian name at
I,nuth.

Mr. Stodart not appearing to hear tlisiinetly
what was s4id, several Alembers repeated the
question, and he apologized on the ground that a
violent cold had teinporatily aff,cted his hearing.
He then *WS, ered. Juhn Cain Hobhouse.

The SPEAKPR—You may t%itbdraw.
Having :',drawn,
_

Mr. CoUIiTENAY observed, that after what had
pd,:cd, it was no, iris i)bject, nor could it be the
. .

ohj ct of the House, to punish the Prititer and
Publisher, since the principal was brought before
them As the Author wa. avowed, lie should 'stove,
,n the first phee, dist Robert Stodart be diseli.trg-
ed,'and nex , that John Cam Hobbouse should ha
ordered to attend.
Mr. ELuce stated, that Mr. Hobbouse was not
it present in town, having gone into the country
to see his father, Who was ill. He hoped, there-
fore, that the order for his attendance might be
framed accordingly.
Mr. CoI.IIII'ENAY said, he should move for his
attendance to-morrow.
Mr. TIERNby—For what purpose ?
The SNEAK ER, adverting to the course proposed
by the Hon. Mover (Mr. Coortenay), obsrved,
'hat as Mr. Stodart was not in custody, but had
only been ordered to atieud at the liar, there was
tin occasion for the motion that he should he ois-
charAed. The order to withdraw was his libera-
tion, On the other questiOn, it would
he seen, that if the proof of Mr. Hohhonse's bein
the author of the pamphlet rested net the resti•
loony of the publisher alone, who might be mis-
taken, it might be requisite to call him to the Bar
to confirm their opinion ; but since the fart had
been stated by an Hon. Member of the House,
that course was rendered no longer necessary.
Mr. COURTKNAY was nut previously aware of

the "difference which arose out of this view of
the matter. He should, however, being so in-
structed by the Chair, pursue the course pointed
out to him. It might, however, be expected that
he should first brit-fly state the view which he
rook ot the nature ot the offence, and ot the pro-
ceeding which it behoved the House in conse-
quence to adopt. In doing this, he trusted he
should not presume too much on his own in,tg-
went, but that the feeling of the House would
entirely go along with him. It had been a mat-
t,er ot anxious consideration to him how this of-
fence should be visited 5 and he assured the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Ellice) that he had consulted his
pillow upon it, and his firm conviction was, that
the House would not do its duty if it did not take
the punishment into its oA.ci hand. It wAs

doubtedly familiar to most of the Hon. Gewle.
met' whom he addressed, hut, as it miglit not be
so to all, he would take the liberty of reading a
part of the Report of a Committee which set this
matter in its true light.—[The Honourable Mern-
ber here reed the conclusion of a Report of a
Committee, which declared the right of punish-
ing, in cases of breach of privileges or contempt,
to belong to the Haase ; to be fundamental,
and part of the lex terra ; agreeable to Magna.
Chorea, and as much a power belonging to them
as any law of the land, &c. ; it was a power
tounded on the clearest principles of expediency
and right sanctioned by the highest legal autho-
rities, confirmed by usage time immemorial, and
calculated alike to promote the euthoriiy of Par-
liament and the good of the coontry.]—The same
opinion was held by Mr. Fox, who, on a tinestioll
of this nature, expressed himself, that it u.as, and
had ever. been his opinion, when a gross breach
of privilege was committed, that it should be pu-
nisued by the House itself. It dill not appear to
that a prosecution by the Attorney-General
was a just mode of proceeding, but that, as in a
contempt of Court, the offender should be visited
by that Court which he contemned, and not sent
for etial to another, especially as in the case of the

House of Commons, it must be to an inkrior
hunali These were the sentiments of that Right
Mu. Gentleman (Mr. Fox) upon a case not near
so strong r.s he resell, which outstripped 2;1
other that he knew of, and was not a construc-
tive, but an actual contempt. For these reasons

he conceived that the !louse was bound ►o act in
its own vindication. As for himself, he could
make allowances for the irritated feelings of the
distressed mechanic, smarting umler suffering, and
perhaps too vehemently giving vent to his coin-

_ . .
plaints : he could make allowances for the writer
in a Daily Newspaper uttering his opinions la the
burly of that daily call for exertion, and exl►:eas-
ing himself wits► a warmth on political aft:rs
which his cooler moments would reject : htit he
could not firm any ground of allowance for the
deliberate act of such writer% las the author of this
pamphlet, who could contemplate, nithoot re-
morse and contri,ion, the ntiscl►ief which might
flow to others from their excitements. All that

he had in view in bringing forward this question
was justice, and in whatever course the House
adopted he would with readiness acquiesce.--•
What he
.shouid propose its the first instance was
a Resolution declaratory of the character of the
puhlication. The Hon. Gentleman then snbmitted
Resolution—" That the said Pamphlet is a
scandalous libel, containing matter tending to in•
flame the people to acts of violence against the
Cons;ittition, and especially against this House;
that it is a high contempt of the privileges and
the constitutional authority ut this House."
This Resolution being put, was agreed to.
The Honourable Gentleman then moved,
" That John Cam flubhouie, Elq. having sc.

knowiedged himselt to b- the AntilCir of the said
Pamphlet, hat been guilty of a high contempt of

/sod voirstitutional authority of this
Ilimae "—Agreed to.
Mr. Cocavre teal said, it had been stated to him
to lie very desirable to determine whether Mr.
Holibouse shoold he committed to Newgate or
elsewhere. He should therefore move, that lie be
taken into custody of the Serjeant at Arms, leav-
ing it to the House to decide on his future
tottiou as it thought fit.
Mr. BfinUGHAM, before the motion was put,
wished to know if there was any-netessity•for this
intermediate step. Ile thongter It bard that Mr.
Moblomae should have to pay the fees to the Ser-
jeant, and encounter the delay to Which- this mea-
sure would subject him. He thought it quite
sufficient that he should be committed to New-
gate or elseveh4e, to-morrow. He was now per-
forming the offices of filial piety, and gone to visit
his father, who was alarmingly ill, while ;yet it
wns in his power. As for the course resolved
upon, lie was and ever was of opinion, that it
was the only one which the could, eon-
eis'endy with its dignity pursue, when its ptivi-
leges were infringed, and he would always pro-
test ,igainst •their sending their cases to any in-
feller Court.
Mr. CoußTitteAY in explanation, protested that
it was quite doe to himself to be permitted to.say
a few words. He was surprised and astonished
-at the Learned Gentleman's tirade against
proposi;ion, especially as he had only adopted it,
altering his original "notion, at the request of one
of the Learned Gentleman's own friends, who
bad come across the House to desire him to sub-
stitute the more lenient mode of committal for the
present to the. Setjenot, to the more regular
Course of committal to Netegate. For this con-
cession he was attacked by the Learned Gentle-
nolo with an impotation of harshness--(Heat !)
End was now left nu abet native but to move, that
John Cam Hohhouse be committed to iris
sty'. Gaol of. Newgate.
This motion was put.
Mr. Baotroxam explained, and still thouelit
that the previous committal to the Setjeant would
be a hardship.
Mr. ELLICE said, that in consequence of the
warm friendship which he telt for Mr. Hob-
house, when that Gentleman had determined to
avow himself the author of the pamphlet, and
foreseeing the probable consequences which might
ensue, he, (Mr. Ellice) had been anxious to in-
epiire into the state of that place, where it was
likely his friend might be sent. The information
hr bad obtained was, that it would be almost
impossible to receive him in Newgate, unless he
was sent to share a place with convicted felons.—
h was on this account that he had gone over to
the Honourable Mover, and requeced him to alter
his rt salotion, and therefore if any blame was
attached to that step, he was hound to say that
;IS object was to serve Mr. Hobhouse.
Mr. WYNNt: noticed some difficulty that °c-
entred to him in point of regularity with respect
to the motions. The only person two could take
an offender against the House into custody, was
the Seijeant-at-Artos or his Deputy, and there-
tore unless the first motion was, that Mr. Hob-
house be taken into custody by the Serjeant, he
did not see how his committal could be made out.
different from the case of parties at the
air who were immediately placed iu custody of
titter Oificer, for here the party was at large.
The SPEAKER offered a few words on the point
of form. It was true that parties were frequently
taken into custody by the Serjeant prior to the
final determination of punishment, but it was also
tute that in other cases a direct order could be
given for committing to prison. The reason for
the double order, he presumed, to be where the
individual was not known, or it was not ascer-
tained where he could be found, that they might
be sure of the execution of their order. Here,
however, theie seemed to be no difficulty of that
kind. And it should be recollected, that when
the direct proceeding was adopted, and the
Speaker issued his warrants, there were two, one
to the Serjeant to take the party into custody,
and another to the Keeper of Newgate to receive
the prisoner. There were instances enough to sa-
tisfy the House as to the regularity of tliis mode of
pr oceedin
Sir C. BURRELL began some remarks by alleg-
ing that the Gaoler of Newgate would have no
right to take charge of a prisoner without a pro-
per warrant, and therefore Mr. Hobhouse must
deliver himself.—(Cries of No, No ! Mistaken )
The SPEAKER supposed that the Hon. Member
had not heard distinctly what he stated ; lie again
dsfined the course of proceeding, and remarked,
that any refusal of the Gaoler would be hume-
diately treated as a gross contempt.—(Hear.)
Sir C. BURRELL bowed to this, but took an op-
portunity of reverting to the statement of an Hon.
Member relative to the situation of the prison._
It could never be meant to send a Gentleman of
Mr. Hobbouse's condition of life into contact
with felons; and the House, he was sure, had no
desire to punish him with this severity. He put
it, therefore, to them, in common kindness, to
allow time for considering to what place of con-
finement he should be sent.

SPEAKIIII.--1139 the Hon. Baronet any
Amendment (0 propose ? .
Sir C. BURRELL-1 move, as an Amendment,
that atter the words " committed to," instead of
Lis Majesty's Jail of Newgate, the words " the
custody of the Seijeant at Arms" be substituted.
Mr. ELLICE seconded the Amendment.

COURTENAY said, this put the matter back
exactly to where he had it when the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite (Mr. BroughAtn) thought fit to
attack him. He assured the House that he was
actuated by the same feelings as the Hon. Baro-
net and the Hon. Seconder, and as he wished it to
be ascertained whether Newgate was in a proper
state to receive the prisoner, he should willingly
accede to the Amendment.

tiir C. BURRELL said, tat his only object was
to (Ford lime to inquire into the accommodation.
Mr. CoonTENAY then suggested, in order to
preclude the idea that this was the ultimate pu-
nishment, that instead of being committed to the
Serjeant at Arms, the words should be, " taken
into custody by the Serjeant."
Mr. Alderman Woop•vouched for the unfitness
of IN e..ss. ga: c, a; present, for the reception of a
Gentleman of Mr. iinhhouse's rai:k There were
300 prisoners tried at the Sessions, and the nc-

cummadation was wrctebeil. If were allrim-
ed, however, it might be possible to obtain that
aceonimodatk4l in sonic of the apartments
signed to the Law Officers-, which could not be !.
found'within (be wails.
Mr. R. MARTIN said, he was the lAst person
living to propose any aggravation of punishment
tipoii att individual, but he. been long enough
a Member of that House to have seen persons,
certainly not more guilty than the subject of their
present discussion, committed to the prison of
Newgate, without any attempt to qualify the sen-
tence. He could not understand, because this
person was richer and better informed than others
who had offended, and been punished before him,
howit tonld he contended that they were right in
mitigating his punishment in a mariner not thought
of in other cases.--,(llear, hear, bear !)—lf they
did so, he was convinced the imputation upon
them would be, that they were afraid to deal with
him as they ought. If Newgate was in- the state
that had been riresented, he cvas equally con,-
vinced that it •was unfit for the other prisoners
whose offrnees .rendered them Halle to be sent
thither.

They ()tight t►► Make no ►listinctions of

persons, but only look to the equality of the law
and the equality of crimes. It, after the due ad-
miUistration of the practice, a petition was pie-
seoted on the score either Of ill health, or the
un-
wlttult•semeness of the place, he should be as ready

as any ratan to "accede to ifs piayer. But he would
rather get rid of the present course altogether, by
moving for a prosecution by the Attornt-y-Gene-
ral, titan he tvOuld consent to a partial measure at
a crisis like (hr. present.

Sir F' BURDEVT rose amid some confusion,
which rt ndered the few words with which he com-
menced inandihk, but we gathered from the cries
of order nod interference of the Sneaker, that
they were such as could not be listened to in the
Huuse.

The SPEAKER was sure that a 'little refleetiun
would induce the Lion. Bdronet nut to persist in
adopting this line of argument.

Sir F. littant.pr resumed, and expressed
.his
opinion that the House hail not sufficiently
considered the whole of the pamphlet. How.
ever gross the language was in particultir
passages (which lie did not mean to detend), he
felt assured that it never was the intention of the
author to excite to the employment of brute
force, as bad been imputed to him. The Hon.
Baronet was proceeding to read a portion of the
publication to show that it was not libellous,
when called to order by
Lord CASTLEREAGerI , who observed that it was
not open to the Hon. Baronet to take this course
and go into the publication to disprove its being
of that nature which bad been decided by kvote
of the House. The question now before them
was the punishment of the offender, not the qua-
lity of the offence, which they had already de-
clared.

Air. BNOUGHAM agreed so far with the Nuble
Lord, that the pamphlet coultl not now be gone
into to prove that it was not a libel ; but he con-
tended that it might still he referred and urged,
as all other matters might be, in extenuation.—
They were At liberty to say that it was every
thing short of a libel in mitigation of punish-
ment.

Sir F. BuRDETT said, the laws of the Noble
Lord were more severe than those-of Rhadaman-
thus himself. Rhadamanthus punished it was
tine, but lie heard afterwards ; -but the House
punished and would not hear at all. This roo
arose out of a strange and extraordinary trial,
and abrupt condemnation, for that which others
might do with impunity. To show how breaches
of privileges might be committed without even
censure, he would read the remarks of a Morn-
ing Paper upon a discussion in that House, and
a more gross contempt, be asserted, never was
committed. Lie referred to The Morning Post of
Friday. The Hon. Baronet was about to read
the animadversions alluded to, when
Mr. W. WYNNII rose to order. He asked if it
could be possible to affect the decision of the
House by superadding the proof of one breach of
privilege to another I (le-ohjected entirely to any
Newspaper being read. It was against the order,
and rules of the Nonce, and could not he done in
any case without the permission of the House,and
then as the ground for a co'tplaint of breach of

Sir P. BURDETT contended, that the impunity
allowed to other parties, was a strong grount4 of
extenuation in favoor ()lan individual selected tor
punidiment. As for -himself, he never could agree
that writing was a breach of privilege, or a con-
tempt. ir was merely cons! ructive, and ought
not to be considered a positive offence, and he
would, as firmly as any other Member, resist an
inroad upon their real privileges. The Hon. Ba-
ronet WAS again about to read from The Morning
Post, but

• Mr. BANK Cs rose, and objected toshis commit.
ting this violation of the rules of the House.
Mr. BnotionAst spoke to order, amid cries of
Chair. They all knew that they ought to yield
to the decisions of ale Chair ; but he would be
abdicating his functions as a Member of Parlia-
ment, if he slid not, before that decision was pro-
nounced, throw out what struck him as necessary
to be stated on the subject. The course wished
to be taken by the Hon. Baronet was at all times
used to be pursued in mitigation of punishment.
It was done in the case of Mr. Reeves, and in the
case of The True Briton. No order of the House
applied 10 the not reading of Newspapers which
du: not evally apply to pamphlets ; yet no one
stopped the Hon. Member for Yorkshire (Mr. S.
IVortley) when he read those passages which bad
led to the business of this evening. No one got
up and said to that Hon. Gentleman, " Sit down,
Sir, you have no tight to read pamphlets herr"
Ile was not interrupted as the Hon. Baronet had
been. Yet the order was the same in the one case
as in the other, and the irregularity then the same
as the irregularity now.
Mr. BANKEs in reply, said he "as not more
accountable for the lion. Member's not being
,topped, than the Learned Gentleman, or any
other Member was. But now, when the atten-
tion of the Hollse Was distinctly drawn to a point
of order, they could not shut their eyes to the
cou'Ausion that they must abide by their own
roles. The Hon. Member for Yorkshire bad
merely read hunt the pamphlet to illustrate the

arguments Le was maintaining, and it was not un-
usual to set Members, do so as parts of their
speech. But it could not thence be inferred, that
it '.vas competent to state matter, the first words
of which were a breach of plivilege.
The SPRAKER said, perhaps the Howe would at-
low bits to state what occur red to him on the order
of their proceedings. It had been decided that an
offence had been committed, and it was therefore
too late to go into the pamphlet, or any argument
to disprove that fact. When, however, the
House were discussing the-award of punishment,
he conceived it to be open to any Member to al-
lege what was suggested to !din in extenuation.
The House must he perfectly aware that the pro-
duction of any paper (he could see no difference
between a pamphlet and a newspaper), could only
be allowed ia cases of breach of privilege,_and any
Hon. Gentleman bringing either under notice, was
bound to prefer the complaint. It appeared
that the line of condtict taken by the Honourable
Baronet would have been widely different had it
been adopted before the House decided on the
libel from what it was after that decimion. In the
former case, the Honourable Baronet might have
argued. that this was the grossest breach of
ptiri-
lef:e, and denied the punishment of the %ye:diet-,
as this was not visited. But, as that question
was now determined, (hey must yilocced on it,
and no allegation of another libel was in poiot;—
it must be felt, that advancing any quotation as
a stronger libel must be 'objectionable on tsvo
points ; first, that if this had been adduced, it
would not have appeared that it was a libel; and
secondly, non conslat, that as it was a libel, and a
greater libel than the other, it would not have ex-
refloated it. With regard to reading from printed
papers as parts of speeches, Members would per-
haps feel it personally incumbent upon thew not
to stretch that license which the House gave for
convenieney to the injury of justice.
Mr. WYNNE said, no Member could read front
a !Hinted paper, except by leave from the House,
unless it was to bring that paper before them as a
breach of privilege.

The SPRAKER observed, that the ordinary course
of reading extracts was, he conceived, a pr act ice
ailowed.for.genetal convenirncy, and the strict
order of the [louse was still in operation to pre-
vent its abuse.—(Hear.)
Mr. STUART WORTLEY explained, :hat he had
not brought forward tl►e breach of privilege, hot
referred to the •pamphlet in support of the argu-
ment he was using.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, as it was so (lit-B-
-elli( to (1.0 What he had intended, he should rib.;
stain from pressing his slew of the question.

After a fer wor►h from Sir C. 13uttattLii, the
'lunge ►divided on the amendment.

The Tiestion was, that the words" to his Ma-
jesty's gaol of Newgate" proposed to he admitted,
stand part of the motion.

Ayes
NOl,
MajOritY

198
65

On our ke,adinittance to the 6:dlery, Lord Nu-
GENT was 00 his legs, but the noise prevented our
bearing what he Rah!.
The SPEAKER put the question, That John Cain
flobhouse be con►mitte►l to Newgate, and that
the Speaker do issue his warrant accordingly.—
Agreed to.