The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-03 00:00:00

edition of tee poor, and ,the p:oviSion's for their relief,
and that Committee reported that the provision was in
Most of the parishes utterly inadequate. In 1843, a
Commission Was appointed by the Crown to inquire into
the sirue subject, and the report was to the same effect.
(The Right Hon. Gentleman then read extracts from
the report of the Commissioners, which were to the
effect that the provision for the poor aed
the infirm was lamentably insufficient) From
no inconsiderable experience of his own, he was able to
say that the statements were undeniably correct,—Hear,
hear.) He would not delay the House by reading over
the evidence, as he thought the coincidence of the re-
ports was conclusive.—(Hear, hear.) The first Act,
relating to the support of the poor in Scotland, was that
of James VI., passed in the year 1571, and it provided
only for the relief of the aged and infirm, or of those
who were either partially or totally incapable of sup-
porting themselves. There were four kinds-of settlement
entitling the pauper to relief—birth, parentage, resi-
dence, or marriage. A settlement once obtained could
not be lost, except by the acquirement of a settlement in
another parish. The funds which existed for carrying
that law into effect were contributions at the parish
church, other voluntary contributions, and when
necessary a general assessment of the parish.
In Scotland, there was a full power of relieving the
poor vested in the parochial authorities, which they
ceeld (lo by as,:eesinent. The statute which gave them
that full power was passed in the year 1579. It was an
unlimited power as they were enabled by that statute to
procure as much as was required for needful sustentatioa
of the poor. It had been the law ever sincel7s9, and was
now the law, in several parishes the law was still acted
upon to a large extent. The assessment was laid on in
this manner—the proprietors of land paid one-third and
the inhabitants and householders paid the remainder ;
the former paid it according to the rents and profits, and
the latter paid the rates, as a property and income-tax.
Ile (the Lord-Advocate) was aware that there were
parties who objected to this mode of assessment ; but
though he had many circumstances on that point, he had
not received any authenticated case from any party that
he had been assessed beyond his circumstances. In
boroughs, there was not one-half the assessment laid as
in other parishes, where the tax generally fell upon the
landlords. The law made a full provision for the sup-
port of the poor ; it put in the hands of
certain parties a discretionary power of as-
eessines as fully as it required. In towns,
the assessment was voluntary with the magistrates, and
the ministers of the Kirk Sessions could not interfere
with the administration of the law. In the parishes
which were not towns the administration belonged to
the proprietors of the land. As to the nature of the
relief given to the poor, it was not prescribed by the
statute that it should be afforded in any particular form.
The statute required that there should be needful sus
tentation. It may be given in money, or in any way
that may be considered advantageous for them, and the
• amount depended upon the opinion of the administrators
of the law. It should, however, depend upon the condi-
tion and style of living of the labouring classes in that
part of the country in which the poor exist. It could
net be contended that in any place the support given to
the poor should be greater than was given to and re-
paired by the labourers in that district, who supported
theniselees. That discretion existed in reference to the
amount of relief. It may, however, happen that a poor
person is denied relief, and the parish may refuse to
hear his case, or listen to his application, as it often
occurs; but then the local judge has power under the
law is require that the local authorities should meet and
take his case into consideration. If, having met, those
parties denied his right to be admitted into the list of
the poor of the parish, or if they gave him what was too
small, then he had the power of applying to the Supreme
Court,which could compel the local authorities to do their
duty honestly and faithfully. That being the state of
the law, every poor person had a right to relief, there
was a body armed with the power and charged with the
they of administering that relief, and if they neglected
doing their duty there was the Supreme Court to compel
them to do it. There was the right, there was the ob-
ligation, there were the parties to perform the obliga-
tion, and the parties to compel them. It could not be
said that the state cf things found in the report arose
from the circumstance, that the law was formed when
the country was in a different condition, and that the
improvi meats of the.country had outstripped the law,
for the law had been most full, perfect, and efficient in
those districts which had advanced most. Not that the
improvements had eutstripprd the law, but that the law
bad received assistance from those improvements. He
almost forgot to mention that the law of Scotland went
furtlit r, it provided for the education of the poor. It was
strange that extemporaneous enactments similar in both
the countries should have such different results. It
aro :e out of the poverty of one country and the wealth
the other. At the same time they were not desirous
in Scotland of obtaining such a law for the administra-
tion of relief to the poor as existed in England. He
thought that the state of things described in the report
was mainly to be attributed to the effects of the
machinery of the, law, it was not owing to any
unwillingness to disburse for the maintenance of the
poor, or to any hardheartedness. There were several
cases where exceedingly small sums were given, not suffi-
cient to aft'orded relief. The relief afforded ought to be
in accorc'ance with the habits and mode of life of
the labourers who live in the district. The expense
was different in one place from what it was in another.
For instance, they did not possess the same wealth in
Scotland as they did in this country. Why was it
that the Scotch proprietors bad parted with
their property and that English proprietors
purchased it Because one was poor and the
other was rich. The power of assessing was in accord--
awe with the wants of the poor, and if they facilitated
the mode of administering to the relief c-f the wants of
the poor, what could be more desired ? He thought
that, in the first place, the means of obtaining relief
should be facilitated in the parish- where the poor man
became destitute ; for, very frequently it occurred that
the pauper was very tar away from the parish
in whieh be could claim a lew settlements—(Hear.)
lie proposed that each parish should have the power of
ascertaining and establishing its own liability, and by
that means the pauper not only got relief in the parish
in which he applied for it, but he got it immediately.
Then suppose the parish in which a poor person was
found refused to give him relief, at present his only
remedy was to appeal to the superior courts. Instead
of that he proposed that the sheriff should
have the power to decide the right of the party
to relief, and if it should be in favour of the appli-
cant, then the relief should be immediately granted, and
the parish should be liable until a decision to the con-
trary should be had from the local court. The next
point he wanted to draw attention to was as to the
amount of relief to be given, and who were the parties
whose duty it should be to see that due relief had
been administered. At present the obstacles to
this were, that there was a want of some
central power or authority for this purpose. The
remedy he proposed for this evil was, that there should
he iu each parish a person to attend to the claim, made
by the poor. and to keep a list of them ; and that, in ad-
dition to the central authority, there should be local
boards in each parish, who should make constant re-
po. ti to the central board of all applicants for relief; and
in this way a knowledge of all the poor of each parish
would, in a short time be acquired. and of those who
had and who had not received relief. Then came the
question of what was to be done by those local authori-
itss in cases of parties complaining that they had not suf-
fieient relief afforded them. At present, in such a case,
the poor applicant had the superior court opened to him
as a court of appeal ; but then it was often at a great
distance, and it had many other disadvantages ; besides
which the expense w is great, and before a decision could
he had, perhaps the applicant might starve ; and even
if he did get redress, it should be considered that the
money expended in defending the complaint would be
meek better ap„lied in affording relief. These were
evils which the Commissioners had recommended should
be done away with ; and they further recommended that
the amount of relief to be given was a matter which
should be entirely left to the local board ; they also said
that there should be a board of supervision sitting
in Edinburgh. lie agreed with them in that sugges-
tion ; but it should be a board composed of men who
ehould have some inducement to attend it, and who
shOttid be also possessed of legal knowledge, as well as
a general knowledge of the affairs of the world and of
the country. He proposed that this board should con-
sist of nine men, three of them to be appointed
• by the Government and to be paid, and to give
their constant and daily attendance. The other six
should be ex officio members, and the Lord
Provost of Glasgow should be one of them.
The other cx officio should be the Solicitor. General for
the time being, he being a lawyer whose advice on all
questions of law would be of value and importance. The
three other ex-officios should be the three sheriffs of the
three most important counties; and their services should
be commanded by some small addition to their salaries.
One of those should be the sheriff of what was called
the Yorkshire of Scotland ; another should be the
sheriff of the Highland county of Itoss, in which there
was great agricultural distress ; and the third should
be the sheriff of Renfrew, as it was an agricultural
county and came almost on the verge of Glasgow. All
these were men, who from their education an position
in the country were such as would render useful services
to the hoard. With this board, thus constituted, he
. would now state how he proposed to dispaopspeolfs
ashlloaupld-
peals made to it. Ile proposed that all ea
be referred to it, and in such a case as that of a poor
man appealing on the ground that the relief he had had
was not sufficient, then the decision of this
board on the case be proposed should bo final.
He proposed to give the power to the board, where they
saw just cause for relief, to determine what was a rea-
sonable amount of relief for a pauper, and to afford that
• relief. Ile proposed that the board should have the
power of inquiring and investigating into all matters
connected with this subject. He also proposed to give
the board the power of dismissing inspectors who might
neglect their duty. He proposed also that the parochial
boards should be elected by the rate-payers ; and
he proposed that the term for giving a legal settlement
in a parish should be extended from three to six years.
With regard to the manner of raising the necessary
funds, he did not think it requisite to make it compulsory
on the parochial boards to make assessments. He
thought that if the funds were provided, and the poor
received adequate relief, it was a matter of no general
iniport.:nee in what manner the funds were provided.
This was the substance of the Bill which he was about
to introduce. It would give speedy and effectual relief
to the poor, and give the power to parishes to proceed
against other parishes whose poor might be thrown upon
the former. It would also give the power of removal to
parishes; and it gave the power of providing medical
relief, and also of providing education for the pauper
children. Provision had been made in the Bill with re-
gard to lunatics. lie did not propose to deal generally
with the law relating to that subject, although the law
Iva; not altogether satisfactory to him at foresente H
proposed in this Bill to provide for pauper unatics, and
he proposed, in certain cases, to make distinctions as to the

pro-, itions t made fo.• the accommodation of lunatics.
Regarding a question which had been put to him about
lunatics conveyed to the island of Arran, he had to say
that in July 1843 he learned there was an extraordinary
number of lunatics in Arran. A communication to that
effect was made to the Sheriff, who, upon inquiry, found
that lunatics from various parts of Scotland bad been sent
there in a clandestine manner because the expense of
maintaining them.there was less. Means were forthwith
taken for the removal of the whole of them, 68 in number,
to the respective parishes to which they belonged, and
the parties sending them were obliged to pay the entire
cost of their removal, and threatened with prosecutions.
He had made other inquiries lately, in consequence of
the statement of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, and it
was ascertained that no person who could come under the
designation of a pauper lunatic was then in Arran. The
Learned Lord then recapitulated the provisions of the
Bill, and concluded by moving for leave to bring in a
Bill for the amendment and better administration of the
laws relating to the relief of the poor in Scotland.
Lord DALMENY commended the Government for
bringing in the Bill, but thought it was susceptible of
much improvement.
Mr. E. ELLICE said the subject was not one of
greater difficulty than importance to the people of Scot-
land ; but he doubted whether the measure proposed
was sufficiently comprehensive in details. He doubted,whe-
ther anything like a voluntary assessment would answer
in Scotland. No system could be effective unless it was
compulsory. He would reserve his opinions on the
present measure, but would simply observe that the
present mode of treating pauper lunatics in Scotland
was a disgrace to a civilised country.
Mr. HUME differed from the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down, and thought the voluntary system
would be successful. He did not think any compulsory
power was necessary. He would reserve his opinions on
the details of the measure until its second reading.
Mr. HAWES said that he had listened with great
pleasure to the able speech of the Lord Advocate, and
being one who was unaffected by local incumbrances or
local prejudices, he was perhaps in a better position than
one immediately connected with the country to express
an opinion upon the nature of the plan. But there was
one point of it which he thought required some atten-
tion—he alluded to that part of the Bill which referred
to the management of pauper lunatics, and the compul-
sory assessment for the relief of the poor and for their re-
moval. Now it appeared by the Bill that it was not neces-
sary to remove a pauper before he was relieved, but that
where he had not a legal title to settlement, the guardians
were to be empoweredto grant him relief. With regard
to settlement, he might observe in passing, that he thought
a seven years' residence a very long time, but as the Bill
gave a power of relief, and if the relief was not deemed
were sufficient by the pauper, there was a right of appeal
the other authorities, who could alter the allowance if
they thought it insufficient, this did, in fact, institute a rate
of relief, and establish the compulsory assessment by im-
posing punishment where the requisite relief was not
given. With respect -to the case of the lunatics
in the isle of Arran, cited by the Honourable
and Learned Lord Advocate, he would merely
observe that he conceived the establishment of a lunatic
asylum would prove anything rather than an unnecessary
expense. In Surrey, where they had gone to an enor-
mous expense in the erection of an asylum, believed to
be more than 100,0001., and where they were subject to
a heavy rate for its support, which was likely to continue
for four years longer, the chief of the expenditure had
been occasioned by the delay in providing a place for
the reception of the persons subject to the unhappy
malady. It was decidedly the opinion of medical men,
that the sooner the complaint was taken, the more easily
was it cured ; and he thought, therefore, that the more
amply the provision for the necessity of this nature was
laid down, consistently with the necessities of the case,
the better, but he could not sit down without thanking
the Government for having taken up this very important
subject, and for the able and lucid manner in which it
had been treated by the Lord-Advocate, than whose
address he had never listened to a more lucid and com-
prehensive one in that House.
Mr. F. FRENCH inquired if there was any provision
in the Bill for the relief of distressed Irishmen in Scot-
land, who were not entitled to residence, and whether
there was any intention of extending any of the provi-
sions of this Bill to the Irish poor-law.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that her Majesty's present ad-
visers were not responsible for the introduc
tion of the present poor-law into Ireland, though
they were desirous of progressively introduc
ing as many improvements as possible into the
Irish poor-law. But this was a Bill for Scotland only,
and its provisions were adapted only for that country.
The Hon. Gentleman must recollect, with respect to the
other part of his inquiry, that when a number of Scotch-
men were located in Belfast, and requiring relief, that
no provision had been made for them ; and he could not
expect that any greater burden should be imposed on
Scotland, than Ireland had been ready to bear. He
would not sit down without thanking the Hon. Member
for Lambeth (Mr. Hawes), for the very handsome testi-
mony which he had borne to the able manner in which
his Bill had been introduced into the House. He

(Sir J. Graham) must himself say, that a more
able, lucid, and complete statement, bad seldom
been made to that House by a Minister of the
Crown. Her Majesty's Government had thought them-
selves exceedingly fortunate in securing the able assist-
ance of the Hon. and Learned Lord-Advocate in pre-
paring the Bill, which he believed would be likely to be
of great utility and importance to the people of Scotland.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. The Bill
was brought up and read a first time, and the House
adjourned.

RAILWAY BUSINESS IN PAR-
LIAMENT.

TuEsDAY, Arnit. 1

Neweastle-up3n-Tyne and North Shields Railway (Tyne.
mouth Extension, &c.) Bill,—Read a second time, and com -
miffed, and referred to the Committee of Selection.
Brighton and Chichester Railway (Portsmouth Exten-
sion),—Petition for Bill reported; report referred to the
Select Committee on Standing Oiders.
Greenwich Colliery Railway,—Report from Select Com-
mittee on Petitions fur Private Bills read; Bill to be read a
second time on Monday next.

NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL OFFICE.
Bristol and Gloucester and Birmingham and Gloucester
Railway,—postponed from Monday 7th till Wednesday,
April 16.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
TUESDAY, APRIL 1.
POST-OFFICE.
Motion made, and Question put, " That this House has learned
with regret, that with a view to the prevention of a political move-
ment in Italy, and more especially in the Papal States, Letters ad-
dressed to a Foreigner, which had no relation to the internal tran-
quillity of the United Kingdom, should have been opened under a
warrant bearing date the Ist day of March, and cancelled on the 3d
day of June, 1844, and that the information obtained by such means
should have been communicated to a Foreign Power." The House
divided :