The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-23 00:00:00

1.
s. d.
5 per cent. thereon . . ,1G 5 2
Vs. :id. dock dues 8 1 8
, Ids. ft.
freight of pine tirnber . 12 15
1)o. of spars .- . .17 0
Do, of oak timber .99 33

I. s. d.

Loads . . 128 48 5Cs. 322 8 0

. ,
cwt. q. ds.
Do. of staves . 43 G 10 a' 151. 64..12 6..
5 per vent. thereon . . . . 19 11
_ .

1,385 17 4

Balance lost on the voyage • • 1.

35-1 11 10

ABSTRACT of the Nelson's accounts for two years, 1819 and 1820.

1.
s. d.
. 6,66 G 18 . 4

No:I. First cost and on:fit in 1819

2. Amount of loss on coal voyage
—3. - Do. - Do. on Quebec voyage
4. Do. Do. on Do. .
Interest on capital, for two years

40 10 8
162 78. 4-
334 11 10
(NG 12

Lo? in two years

:/.
.1,22-1 2 10

N. 8..11.4is ship was valued after two years service, at the preset time, for
sale, slield JIM sell for .1,5G01. a' .121. per ton. As a proof, a siiiiicalled the
Andros
.1819; 420_tons, cost 75001. 5(,141 in January
,1821 for 50001;
and Ail 420 tonsr haibeen in the"fliarTs-et fOr two yeatt;.and is ,et un-
sold; the Palimban, 400 tons, has been unemployed for the same time.

Have you a similar 'statement of the expenses of an outfit to the Baltic? I have
one for Memel. another for Dantzic, and another for Petersburg.
[The witness delivered in the same, and they were read as folio ws.

Snow, FAME; on a voyage to Memel and back to London, turtheti 24G tons,

eleven men and boys.

1820.
March 14 )To disbursements, London .. • •
to '- ' Do. _Memel . • •
June . . 5) Do. Elsineur, both way's •
Portage bill .- • • •
Brokerage; customs, &c. . • •
, .
Dock dues delivering . • •
, • Insurance on 20001. at three guineas per cent.
Policy . • •
• • .
Wear and tear . . . • •

d.
96 --
123 3 3
25 12 1
1111 6--
40 13 9
15 11 2
63
5 5
30

./. 516 11 3

1. s. d.

By freight •
Prinlge 71 per cent.
Loss . . .

350 5 -
2(i .5 4
140 --, 11

N. B. The above loss is without charging any 1. 516 11 3
interest on the capital employed.

Snow, JOSEPH and MARI-, burthen 267 tons, navigated by eleven men and boys,
from Falmouth to Dantzic and London; on-Which voyage every despatch was
used, and performed without happening. any accident,

, .
. .
To sundry expenses at Falmouth previous to ship sailing .
Do. at Elsineur, outw:ards .
.
Do. Dantzic . • • - •
Do. Elsineur, homewards . . . • • ‘
Do. London, discharging . • •
•
, --
Stamens' wages . . •
Brokerage, lights, and tonnage duty
duty
Commercial dock dues - - . .
•
• Provisions for the voyage . . • •
Insurance, as per policy, on 25001. at G guineas per cent. .
Policy duty bl per cent. •
• Wear and tear during the voyage, sails, cables, &c.

. 13 19' 71
. 10 - 11
. 121 9 61
. 11 12 11
. 21 19 6;
. 111 18 8
. 50 10 4
. 6 13 6
. 51 - -

. 157 10 -
.6 5 -
• 50

1. Gl2 19 3

s.
. 543 9 7
.° C 9 9 8

By whole amount freight and pritnage
By- loss on voyage . • • •

N. B. The above loss is without any charge for
interest on the capital.

L 612 19 3

AlEmortAxnum.--The Joseph and Mary was built in the year 1813, and cost
.to sea 6,5781. and sold in the year 1820. for 2,Ci501. STEPHEN STA;;TON.

Two BROTHERS, on a voyage to Petersburg and back to London, burthen
215 tons, ten men and boys.

Mr. Francis Treadwell called in ; and examined

1. s. (1.

181 7. To disbursements, a' London .
March 14 Do.. Elsineur
to Do. . Cronstadt
. 5 Do. fees at Petersburg
Portage bill . • • •
Brokerage, 'customs, &c. &c.
Delivering ship in river .
Insurance on 36001. a' I guinea per cent.
Policy . . • • •
Wear and tear . . . • •

Where do you reside?. In• London. • • - • • ••
Have you formerly sailed in a Prussian vessel ? Yes ; I commanded a vessel
belonging to Elias Roupel,.esquire, of Memel, from the year 1810 to last-October.
In what navigation was she principally employed? -Principally between Memel
and London, and Memel and Dublin. •
In the timber trade? Yes, constantly.
Was this ship in which you*ent built for the timber trade ? Yes, she was.
Can you state the comparative expence-of the building and fitting of a ship-in
Memel and in Great Britain, at the present time? There is nearly one half
difference ; a ship and her materials may be purchased really for sea at Memel for
about 61. 15s. a ton, that is British registered tonnage.
What are seamen's wages at Memel? Memel is the 'mist extravagant port there
is in Prussia ; that is no criterion to go by ; •in general in Prussia the average of
seamen's wtges are 9.55, per month; I have never paid more than :-?0s. during the
last four years. _

'Two Brothers :—Account continued.

„
- Are not sails. and cordage and every description of necessaries for the outfit of a
ship during her voyage, and for her supplies, much cheaper there than in this
country? Yes, more than one third cheaper; the highest price we ever paid for
beef was fourpence a pound.
Are not biscuits and flour also cheaper in a greater proportion ? Yes, only l 2s.
per cwt.. ship bread.
What is the present price here? I believe one or two and twenty shillings per
cwt. ; I ant not at present in employ, so that I am not aware of the current prices in
London. -

By freight outwards . . .

Homeward freight :

tons. cwt. qrs. lbs.
100 Cas`i s tallow . 44. 15.• 1. 0. . . a' 30s.
4384 Bobbins flax . 57. 1. 2. 9. . . a' 50s.

22 Builds. hemp . 20. 5. 0. 17. . . 50s.
1,010 Deals . . 0. 25. 2. 0. . . a' 755.

Is a much greater number of hands necessary to navigate a Prussian ship than is
necessary to navigate a British ship of the same tonnage? No ; I have commanded
a Prussian ship now for seventeen or eighteen years, and I never had a man more
in the one than I should have had in the other; I never had more than sixteen men
and boys in the Maria, a ship of 375 tons. •
Have you knoWn instances of British ships of that tonnage being navigated by a
smaller number of hands in the Baltic trade? No, we went in those ships entirely
on the British plan.
Was the owner of that Ship a British subject ? No he was not, he was a subject
of Prussia.

Primage 5 per cent.

13 Casks tongues 1
. I Case leather (
I Bale hides
1 'Package scythes
450. Pieces lath-wood . . •

Was any part of the crew British ? Only myself.
Was there any ship-building going on in the last autumn, when you left Memel?
No not in Memel.
Do you think the shipping of Prussia is increasing or decreasing ? It is much
the same I think. _
What proportion of the Prussian timber trade- is carried on in British ships? I
am sure I cannot say.
• There are a goo,tl many British ships employed in it, are there-not ? Yes; -and
there are great many Prussians, hut I never entered into the proportions.
What is the reason if there are such advantages in favour of the Prussian ships,
that the- Prussian timber is not all sent in Prussian ships? I cannot say that; it is
a matter I never studied.
Have you had occasion to know whether ship-building is going forward in the
other parts of Prussia at preknt? No, I have not. had any occvsiod, for I have
not had any communication- with the other parts lately.
You do not know Whether the Prussian ship-owners are in the habit of building
ships' to replace those that may be worn out ? No, I cannot say..
•Mr John Lanips
on, was called in ; and exaMined. _
What is your sitization ; Landing surveyor in the customs in the port of
London.

359 1 7

Without, adding interest on the
Loss is
capital, the . • .

(;7 - ‘1

15:;9 1 8

• Are you acquainted with the first cost of Prussian and Norwegian ships? I have
made enquiry of captains of those ships, and have had conversations with theni.
I find, that the Norwegian ships can be built for less than one half of the British,
and the Prussians et abeiit one half.
Is not the expense of navigating the foreign ships much less than that of the
British ? It will be about half, or not quite so much ; the wages and victuals will
not be one half. -
Are there nut some very large establishments in the Tyne, for building and re-
pairing of ships? There are large establishments, which have cost considerable
sums of money, on the Tyne, for building and repairing ships.
In what state are those.establishments at present? They are partly given up;

Have you been engaged much, in the landing of thither ? Considerably some
years ago, till within the lastfour or five years, from the year 1811 to 1816:
. You are aware:df the 'manner in which the• duties are-taken at present on timber
and deals ? am.
Do you sec any official difficulty there would be, in taking it both upon one and
the other on the cubie'content ? • It is tiling think practicable, but which would
be attended with considerablo difficulties, particularly in its origin, and perhaps for
a considerable time,' and also. with additional expense to_ the revenue.
What are the difficulties-which you contemplate? That of ascertaining it by
ships that are delivering their cargoes afloat in the river into lighters.

td those which are not ~.iven up, are merely going on with their apprentices, in

building or repairing.
Are there many ships built in the port of the Tyne?. There are not many build-
ing in the port of Tyne just now ; those establishments which have apprentices,
perhaws, may be building; but they build as little as possible.
You conceive the reason why the ship-builders.in the port of Tyne still keep
their-yards And docks there, is for the purpose of employing the apprentices •they
have? I know that to be the fact. _ . .

Acquainted as you are with the peculiar interests of that part of the country, do

..„,
OF THIS DAY. „JD,
, tovA
d_ID 1-? 1 TIS ,
. •
'yett not think that the imposition of a duty on the Norticilamcrican timber would
have a very materially injurious effect upon the port of Tyne? I should conceive
any thing, which throws the shipping interest out of employment; would have an in-
jurious effect upon the port of Tyne, which so much depends upon the shipping.
- -Your opinion is,•that. art alteration of the timber duties would have that effect?
In my opinion. it would lead to that.effect..
Do you think a greater importation from the Baltic would take place in conse-
quence. of an alteration of the duties ? • I think it is very probable that it would.
Is it your opinion, that a smaller quantity of tonnage would be employed • from
the port of Type, in the consequence of the proposed alterations ? I Should conceive
half the tonnage would bring the same quantity from the Baltic in all probability,
and part ofthat tonnage would be foreign.
Are the ship-owners. of North and Solith Shields engaged as merchants as well
as owners ? They are-merchants in the coal trade, but seldom in any other trade ;
• it very rarely happens, that they engage in any other commodities.
Could the. ships that are now engaged in the British North American trade be
converted into the Baltic trade? Part of them might.
-What would prevent the whole of them being employed? There are some of
them too large for many of the ports in aheßaltic ; for instance, Mernel is a bar-
harbour; and at Dantzic there is but little water.
. You have stated, that there are betweermwo and three hundred belonging to the
port of,l'Aweastle-employed in the timber trade; they are not employed from that
port, but Carry on that trade from the western coast principally? I apprehend there
are ships belonging to Newcastle trade to all the ports of the kingdom.
Do not the greater proportion. of those ships go to the western coast of the king- "
dour - and get employment frem thence, by the merchants in the timber trade ? Part
of them do.
s not that part a great part? I should not apprehend it is the greatest proportion.
How many ships do you apprehend carry on the trade, bringing their 'cargoes to
Newcastle? I apprehend a very small proportion come to Newcastle ; a great many
come to London.
Have you much Baltic trade from Newcastle? There is not a great deal of Bal-
tic
trade from Newcastle. . • • '
Do you know whether it is'inereaSing or diminishing? I cannot state that.
-Is it dmictly in Newcastle ships that -the.eargoes Come ? I think it is mostly in
Newcastle ships or Foreign-ships ; the reason I cannot speak so particularly to that •
is, that.' }Can't:eel-1
.'4.gbod deal from that pent within these' few years. • , .
You have spoken to tile expense of Foreign ships, and to the great advantage
they have over us in point of expense, do you happen to know that there is agreat
proportion of the Northern
.trade carried on in English ships, with Prussia and
Russia? Part of it is carried on in English ships, but they are trading to a loss.
-A great proportion is carried on in British ships ? Yes.
And always has been ? -Yes. _ •
Can you account for that being the case if there is so great an advantage to Fo-
reign- ships ? I account for it in this way, that the. ship-owners in England at pre-
sent have larger capitals than they have in Norway or Prussia, that the ships are
sailing to a loss which the Prussian ship-owners cannot sustain, and that that is the
reason why they are falling .offnoW.
Can you account- for the proptertion of British shipping, when they were not
sailing to a loss ? This country has the largest proportion of shipping at anytime.
• When the shipping was sailing to advantage, how do you account for so large a
proportion of time trade from the North having being carried on in British ships if
all the advantages you state are in favor of foreigners? The foreigners have not
so inanY ships,- nor ever had; all the ships they had in Prussia or Dantzic were-
employed at that time; all the shipping they had was engaged in trade.
If there Was any increase of the trade at this time would it not then be carried
on in British ships"? I have already stated that the British ship-owners arc losing
money, and that they have outcarried the foreign shipping by that means ; but it
is impossible for me to state •hciwelong they will continune to sail at a loss.
If the advantages you state were decisive in favour of Foreign ships, how is it the
English ships were not driven Out of the trade when it was carried on to advantage?
I apprehend that the whole of the Norway and the Dantzic ships were kept trading,
and that they were-not laid up in their ports. .
Then it arose from the want of ships in those countries ?. I conceive so.
Have there been many ships built in those countries lately ? I do not know, I
have a certificate of a. ship built in I 8 1 t, at Pillan.
Was there much ship building carried on at that time? lam not aware.
Can you inform the committee of what classes time shipping are that are gene-
rally employed from Newcastle in the timber trade of our North American Colo-
nies ? I should COD, rive ships cf different classes, from old ships ( say twenty.
years -old) of about four hundred tons; and others-which are new of time same ton-
nage ; there are likewise-some smaller vessels down to perhaps 250 tons.
Are ships of the first class employed in that .trade ? There are many ships of
'the first class -that have been providedfor other trades which, owing to the general
depression of shipping, have gone into the North American trade.
is the depression the same in the Baltic trade? It is much the same in the Baltic
trade, but the .ships in that trade are generallysntaller.
There are ships of the first class belonging to Newcastle, employed in the deal
and timber trade in the Baltic? I think there-are; but some ships that go to Peters-
burg in this way are loaded with a part deals, and a part hemp and tallow,-and ether
articles, which they generally bring in first class ships.
Are you aelttainted with the present price of American yellow pine timber at
Newcastle ? No, lam not much 'acquainted with the price of timber
Then why should-you, being ignorant of the price of timber in the markets of
this country, be of opinion, that a moderate duty on American timber would throw
a considerable proportion of the shipping now employed in that trade out of em-
ploytnent ? I know so far of American timber as to,.know this, that the freight
has been 50s. per load upon it, orwai last year ; that the charges are about five or
six shillings, or perhaps- seven shillings ; and I understand it has been selling in the
market for about :31. or 81:5s. per load
:May not that state of things have been produced by an excess of trading, or
over-importation ?
_l_ think its is very likely that it has.
And that that state might exist whether the duty existed or not? I cannot speak
to that point. •
Are not the-ships in the northern perts principally insured in clubs where they
insure one another ? In the general way they are.
What has the premium of insiarOire per annum cost, being insured in that mode
during, the laSt year, or the year bethie ? In a general way, i conceive they average
from seven to tell per cent tatt.the last year I understand some of them got up as
high as fifteen per cent, on account of the great losses which they sustained the
former part of the lastyeai-. , .