The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

BASTARDY BILL.

This Bill was read a third time and parsed.
ItAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up, when
The Earl of DALHOUSIE proposed several clauses as
riders to the Bill, for regulating the appropriation of private
roads, and for apportioning the compensation to be made for
she appropriation of them by railway companies, which were
adopted.
The same clauses were also adopted in the Bill for Scotland.
On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE, those Bills
were ordered to be printed and read a third time on Tuesday
neat.

RELIGIOUS GRANTS IN THE COLONIES.
Lord MONTEAGLE moved for a return of all the grants
which had been made for religion; purposes in the colonies,
during the years 1840, 1841, and 1842, and the different sects
to which they had been made.
The rem n was granted, and the House then :idiom-LW.

--
HOUSE OF COMMONS, April is
The SPEAKEA took the Chair at Four o'clock
Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE moved Taßtillthbee;gilleontadlor the
Surrey and Sussex Roads (Sunday toll
posit a filled-up Bill, signed by them in the Private Bill-Oldto de_
th.?, Committee on such Bill be revived, ande leave to
sit and proceed on Monday next.—Agreed to.
TUFNELL moved that the Committee for the Man..
ehester and Salford Waterworks be allowed to sit
next.—Agreed to. on Monday
WEST YORKSHIRE RAILWAY.
Mr. M. MILNES, and other Hon. Members, presented pe-
titions against the West Yorkshire Railway.
The following Bills were severally read a second time and
ordered to be printed. Oxford Mileways, St. Matthew
(
Bethnal-green) Rectory, Spoad (Curt), Inelosure,
Castle 1-0 i (Wexford) Docks, Lyme Regis Improvement,
Market, and Watvrworks, Dublin Pipe Water, Claughton cute
Grange (St. Andrew's) Church, Claughtoa cum Grange (St.
John the Baptist's) Church, Kendal Reservoirs.
AGRICULTURAL ANDRELAND COMMERCIAL BANK OF
I.

On the motion that the Agricultural and Commercial
Bank of Ireland Bill be read a second time,
Mr. WATSON said that his attention had been drawn to
this Bill, and he thought that there were so many objections to
it, that he should move that it be read a second time that day
sit months. The object of this Bill was to wind up the affairs
of the Agricultural and Commercial Bank of Ireland, and gave
power to the Court of Chancery to make orders, and to act in
the affairs of this company with all the efficiency necessary for
winding up the affairs of the bank. This he conceived ought
to be done by a public and not a private Act. Last session
4a Act was passed for winding up the affairs of public com-
panies, but that Act empowered the Court of Chan-
cery to investigate into the manner in which the busi-
Jaen of the concern had been carried on; and if

THE HORSE-GUARDS.

Sir R. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. Grandy
Berkeley, relative to certain reports from the Board of General
Affairs, said he hoped the Hon. Member would have no ob-
jection to repeat the question on Monday next.
STATE OF THE LABOURING CLASSES.
Lord JOHN MANNERS wished to ask the Noble Lord
the Member fur London when his Lordship intended to lay
before the House the particulars of his motion relative to the
state of the labouring classes in this country, for the dis-
cussion of which he had fixed the first of May?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he proposed to do so on
Thursday next.

there had been any defect or neglect in the conduct of i many Hon. Gentlemen for whom he entertained the highest
a company which had stopped payment, a report was to be i respect, and at being obliged to differ more especially in opinion
made to the Board of Trade, who had power to adjudicate with many Members from Ireland. He also felt regret at
upon it. In 1842 a similar Act to this had been introduced being compelled to oppose tl-e measure of her Majesty's Go-
with 33 clauses, and when the Bill went into Committee all the vernment, which he was sure they brought forwent with the
clauses had been struck out but two. Another was kindest dispositions towards Ireland.--( Hear.) But, as one
passed in the case of the Imperial Bank of Manchester, of those who were in favour of the voluntary principle,
in which the only power retained by the company was that Ihe felt compelled to vote against it. There were two charges
of suing and being sued, and of winding up their affairs I brought against those rersons who, like himself, supported the
through a public officer. The Act of last session was a good
voluntary principle. They were charged, first, with concurring
Act, and it was under such an Act as that that he thought in the former grant to Maynooth, and in the next place,
the powers sought by this Bill ought to be exercised, and 1 they were charged with voting for a chimerical
not by a private Act ; and he should therefore move that the project, which they had no chance of carrying out.
Bill be read a second time that day six months. With regard to the first he believed it would be admitted, with-
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL recommended the post- out dispute, that a new question now arose, for a permanent
ponement of the second reading for a short time, in order to endowment by Bill was a very different thing from an
give an opportunity of considering the subject,
annual grant by vote.—( Hear.) It might be in some degree
Mr. WATSON withdrew his amendment, and the Bill vas
ordered to be read a second time on that day week. inconsistent with the voluntary principle that he had not opposed
the grant to Maynooth, but he confessed he felt reluctant to
Mr. MARTIN presented petitions from the Mayor and Cor. vote against the grant to Maynooth, out of respect to his
poration of Bristol, against the Exeter Railway Bill; also peti- Roman Catholic brethren, and because that grant bad been
tions from a Mr. John Parsons and another gentleman, praying
to be heard by counsel againt the Bill. established by the Irish Parliament.—(Hear, hear. )
Nor did he think that the second charge was more valid.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented a great number of peti- He was of opinion that if this grant were passed to the College
Lions against the West Riding Railway Bill. of Maynooth the principle would not stop there. They would
RAILWAY COMMITTEES, then be required to support the priesthood, and to build
Lord 0. SOMERSET, on introducing the consideration churches, and the result would be that a recularly endowed
of the Second Report of the Committee on Railways, moved
the first resolution, that counsel should open the proceedings 1 State Church would be established in Ireland. That this
grant was opposed to the wishes of the people of England
in railway measures, but that they should be debarred the psi- ess
sufficiently evidenced by the number of petitions which had
vilege of summing up. The other resolutions were of a gene- poured in from all parts of the country against it. Ile did
ral character, and he need not trouble the House with their not deny that a portion of this opposition might arise fro n
details. He trusted the House would see no reason to object the old feeling which regarded with disapprobation all concer-
to the measure, and that it would be allowed to pass unani- sions to Ireland. A great deal of doubt existed as to the real
mously.
sentiments of the leader of the Irish people on this questic n.
Lord HOWICK expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord The Honourable and Learned Member for the county
had not brought the subject of proceedings before Railway of Cork had professed so many different principles
Committees more distinctly under the notice of the House before on this subject that they might well doubt whether
those Committees should have commenced their labours. The he were a voluntary agent or not. He could not conceive how
Noble Lord and the House might remember, that in the debaee the Catholic clergy would accept of this grant to the College of
which had taken place on the resolutions moved by the Hon. Maynooth, and refuse, on a future occasion, to accept of an
Member for Inverness, the Noble Lord then promised that. endowment for themselves. He could not see how the adop-
he should propose some alterations in the standing orders to tion of one should not carry them forward to the other. Fut
guide the Committee in their decisions. The House was aware there was another matter which deserved consideration in the
that one Committee under the present system decided on one language which had been held by the Flon. Member for Cork
principle, and another Committee on another principle. There in the Repeal Association, and by some in that House—he
were great principles involved in theconsideration of those cases, meant the argument of restitution. What did that mean?
and he had expected that when the Noble Lord undertook Why, nothing short of the establishment of the Cathol c Church
that this subject should be brought under the consideration of on the ruins of the Protestant Church.—( Hear, hear.) Tithes
the House by her Majesty's Government be would have done so were, originally, the property of the Catholic Church, and, if
in a tangible form. These Committees were now about to the argument were enforced, they should be restored to that
begin their labours, and yet the House was in dark- Church. No man was more averse to an Established Church
ness as to the principles by which they were to be in Ireland than he was, whatever that Church might be, but
guided.—( Hear, hear.) He was not prepared himself to he never wnuld consent to endow one Church at the expense
introduce any resolution on the subject, but he thought there of another. He thought the Established Church a monstrous
ought to be a general discussion as to what rules should be grievance, and had always consistently opposed it. He was
adopted. He thought he ought to complain of the silence of in favour of the appropriation of the revenues of the Church
Government on this question. to national purposes. The Hon. Member for Dundalk said a
Mr. WILSON PATTEN thought that, if counsel were not great deal of Church property was the gift of private in-
allowed to sum up the advantages of contending lines, the dividuals. He (Mr. Crawford) had no objection that Church
Committees would be deprived of very great assistance. property should be disposed of as the testators wished. He
Mr. SHAW opposed the resolution.
could not help feeling that there had b: en a breach of faith on
Mr. PAK INGTON thought it would be much better to the part of the Catholics in supporting this measure—a breach
leave these questions to the decision of the Committees them- of faith towards those who supported the voluntary principle.
selves.
He felt that the Catholics, in supporting the measure,
Sir GEORGE GREY did not think it would be prudent were actin,' inconsistently with their former declaration'.to let a counsel state the case for his clients before their oppo- He heard of no intention to extend civil liberty to IrelareL
rents had made out theirs, for that would be giving one party He did not hear of any intention to extend the franchise—he
an unfair advantage over the other.—( Hear. ) did not hear of any intention to make an addition to the num-
Lord G. SOMERSET said he conceived it would be better ber of Irish Members. The landlords' claims had been ad-
to let Committees, in all cases, exercise their own discretion mitted. He hail not heard of any intention to grant such an
as to the manner in which the proceedings should be carried extension of civil rights as would tend to check agitation. The
on—( Hear, hear)—for it had been found extremely difficult to people had been deceived by the agitation for Catholic eman-
lay down rules for the guidance of Committees in this respect ; cipatien. They would be deceived by the agitation for re-
therefore, it had been deemed a more prudent course to leave to peal. It would end in the endowment of the Catholic
the Committees the power of making such arrangements as the Church without any extension of civil liberties to the people.
merits of each case should require. However, he now begged They would be deceived by the repeal agitation as they had
to say that he would withdraw the resolution.
been deceived by the emancipation agitation. They had sub-
RECAL OF LORD ELLENBOROUGH. scribed large sums of money to support that agitation, but the
Mr. HUME said that his motion for the production of cor- people would find out, after all the sacrifices they hid
respondence connected with the recal of Lord Ellenborough made, that they would be deceived. lie wondered bow
stood for Thursday next. He now wished to give notice that the Irish Members could held forth this measure as
he did not intend to bring it forward until the Government was a boon to his countrymen. Not a single petition had been
freed from the annoyance on the Maynooth grant.—(A laugh.) presented from the people of Ireland in favour of this measure.
RAILWAYS. The agitation would not'cease in consequence of this measure.
Lord HOWICK wished to know from the Noble Lord op- It had been said that when Catholic Emancipation was granted
posite (Lord G. Somerset) whether the reports of the Board of all agitation would cease. Had such been the case? He con-
Trade would be laid before the Committees which were to sidered the measure was totally Conservative, and having only
meet on Monday?
for its object to sustain the Established Church in Ireland. He
Lord G. SOMERSET was understood to say that no order maintained that no benefit could be obtained for Ireland ; this
had been made on the subject. very course of policy would not be assented to by the English
Lord HO WICK only hoped that no motion would be made people. If the grant was persisted in, contrary to the feelings
at a late hour of the night, when only a few Members might of the people of this country, it would be prejudicial to the in-
be present. terests of Ireland in the minds of the people of England. As
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he understood that the reports a friend to the country, and having a wish for the principle of
of the Board of Trade would be laid before the Committees civil and religious liberty, he would give a vote in opposition to
as a matter of course. this measure.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that the standing order on this sub- Lnrd C. HAMILTON said that he would take this oppor-
ject was a most objectionable one. It was smuggled into the tunity of stating his opinion on this question, and the grounds
House last session, and he would take the sense of the House on which he would found his rote on the measure. He must
with a view to rescind it on Monday. say that, of all the arguments he heard in Ireland in favour of
Mr. AGLIONBY said that he thought the postponement the repeal of the union, he never heard one stronger than
of the decision till Mondayevening would put the Commit- that the Irish Roman Catholics were not placed in the same
tees to great inconvenience,e and the parties who had theiposition as the Dipenters in this country. He never thought
agents and witnesses in town to considerable expense. He that any other argument justified the repeal. They gave thought the House ought to meet to-morrow, and come to a thirty-five-thousand pounds as an endowment to 600.000 Dis.
decision.
senters, and they were refusing an endowment of twenty-
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET made an explanation
across the table which was not distinctly heard in the gallery. six thousand pounds to 6,000,000 of Roman Catholics in Ire•
land. The Hon. Gentleman had made use of another arga-
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the motion of the Noble ment which did not appear to him (Lord C. Hamilton) to be
Lord would by no means interfere with the motion which he very felicitous. He had said that this measure would be the
intended to make on Monday. The reports which had peen cause of creating political agitation. Now, he (Lord C. Hamil-
submitted to the Committee ought to be accompanied with cer- ton) was of opinion that it was the want of such measures that
tain documents from the Board of Trade, containing the grounds had caused agitation in Ireland.—( Hear.) If this Bill had
on which they founded their reports. It was the public been forced from the Government by fear and intimidation, or
opinion that there were ex parte statements made to the Board if it had come in an unwilling spirit from a reluctant Govern-
of Trade, and that there was gross partiality on the part of the ment, he did think they would net be justified in granting it.
Railway Department of that Board. The object of his mo- But what was the fact? The Government had come forward
tion was that certain documents should accompany the reports spontaneously and offered the boon with a good grace, and,
of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade' stating the therefore, it would be' received in 1
-eland as a boon.—
reasons why they recommended the dismissal or adoption of a ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had heard some
Bill. This he wished to propose now by way of amendment. Flononrable Members speak as prophets, but he contended
Lord HOWICK said that he should make no objection to that they had already been put out of court as prophets, for
the motion of the Neble Lord, but he should take this oppor- this proposition had not resulted in the disastrous consequences
tunity of calling the attention of the House to the nature of the in Ireland that they had prognosticated.—(Hear, hear.) He
reports. There was a distinct understanding that her felt justified in asserting that the measure had met with no op-
Majesty's Government had no objection to comply position from the Protestants compared with that offered to it
with the motion of the Honourable Member for by the Dissenters of both countries, for the latter had been in -
Finsbury. He thought that the House had great reason to • tigated to do so by jealous and disaffected feelings.—( Hear. )
complain of the great want of care exhibited on the part of the He had often used the term " excited" in speaking of this
organ of the Board of Trade. It was the duty of an officer of measure, and he should confess he felt that no petition had
that department to have ascertained earlier the necessity of been presented here that was not the result of excited feeling,
making such a motion ; it should have been brought forward for in the course of this debate he had heat d language made tt,e
when it would have been practicable. He thought that the of that could only emanate from very excited feelings.—( Hear.
Honse had a great right to complain. It aas only another hear.) He thought many of the statements, fervid and
example of the system of carelessness which from first to last eloquent though they were, of the increased dangers to the
characterised the fiscal business of that department Protestant Church, arising from this increased grant, were
THE WAR IN SINDE. wholly without foundation. It was stated that a liberality like
On the motion that the order of the day for resuming the this was dangerous, but he would ask the Hon. Members
adjourned debate be read, who used that argument whether the remission of
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord opposite (Lord the penal code, and of other laws peculiarly oppressive to Ire.
ccelyn) whether the documents he (Mr. Hume) had moved land, bad not softened the asperities which the people of that
ter relative to Sinde, had been laid on the table? country cherished towards England, and swept away in a great
Lord JOCELYN said that some of the estimates moved for degree the prejudices which had kept them asunder?—(Hear,
by the Hon. Member, relative to certain receipts and expenses, hear.) And would they say that this measure would not be
tat been received, and he hoped to have them completed very followed by a like happy result ? He thought that the course
shortly.
which had been pursued with respect to the Roman Cathotice
in times past, was more calculated to disseminate their princi-
ples than any other which could have been adopted ' • and as
those mistaken efforts to put down the Roman Catholic
religion had totally failed, as they had only strengthened the
hatred which unfortunately they had always cherished towards
the professors of the other faith, he (Lord C. Hamilton)
thought that now they should try whether a greater degree of
cordiality and sympathy would not induce them to lay aside
the prejudices they had so long retained. Hon. Members,
perhaps, would recollect the old fable of the man
and his cloak, and how the more the storm did beat, the
closer did he wrap his cloak around him, until, the tempest
over, he was induced, by the genial rays of the sun, to loose
its folds by degrees, and at last to throw it aside altogether.—
( Cheers.) They had been as the storm to Ireland, and they
had been unsuccessful. Now let them try the sunshine.—
(Cheers.) It was notorious that the state of Maynooth was
not such as was contemplated be its founders, and they would
be only continuing the evil by perpetuating the present grant,
and the present system. For h is own part, if he were asked to decide
on that night whether the present system should he continued,
or whether it should be at once dissolved, he was afraid that lie
should support the latter proposition. He thought that an
unnecessary degree of alarm had been exhibited by several
Hon. Members with regard to the effect of educating the Irish
priests. Surely, if those Hon. Members were assured that
Protestantism was based upon truth, and he (Lord C. Hamil-
ton) for one wasfully convinced of it, they should rather rejoice
in the spread of education, because they were all aware that dark-
ness and superstition and ignorance were co-existent as certainly
as were light and truth. This was not only, in his opinion, an
equitable grant, but it was enhanced by the manner and the
spirit in which it was offered by the Government. It had been
offered in a manner calculated not to wound, in the slightest
degree, the feelings of the most sensitive ; and he was sure that
the Irish people would observe that all personal or party
motives had been merged in an anxious desire to give them
some measure of justice. They would observe the inconve-
nience, and he might say the odium to which the Ministry had
subjected themselves in bringing forward this measure, and he
trusted the recollection of it would sink deeply into their
hearts, and be remembered with lively gratitude. The
debate, he was glad to see, had been distinguished by the
absence of all political topics which might tend to resuscitate
bitter or angry feelings, and with the view of doing away in
a greater degree with the prejudices which now existed against
this Chtholic seminary, he might perhaps be permitted to sug-
gest that the new institution, for he could call it no other,
should be removed as far as possible from its present locality
of Maynooth. They knew from the account given by the
Right Hon. Baronet of the present state of the building, that
the public would gain nothing by the attempt to repair it, and
he conceived that as they should be obliged to rebuild it, i$
would be wiser to remove its site and change the name which
at present was a very rallying point for the exhibition
of political animosity.—( Loud cheers.) He trusted
that thus regenerated its new name would be the harbinger of
a better state of things for Ireland ; while the old name, with
its associations, should be forgotten—(Cheers)—and in the
meantime he would pray of those Hon. Members who had
foreboded the most direful consequences from the passing of
this measure, to suspend their judgments, and to give the pro-
position time to produce its fruits, and he did hope that the re-
sult would be a greater degree of peace, and comfort, and edu-
cation in Ireland; and an extended confidence in the justice of
the English nation.—( Cheers. )
Mr. MUNTZ rose and said that they saw strange things—
( Laughter)-and they heard strange things—( Continued
laughter)—but nothing that he ever saw or heard, however
strange, was to him so very strange, as the change that had
taken place in the speeches and opinions of Noble Lords and
Hon. Members.--( Laughter.) Their memories were clearly
affected.—( Continued laughter.) He recollected that it, the
first, when he had the honour of sitting in that House, every
Catholic question was a battle-field for presonality and party.
( Hear, hear.) He recollected, and they might recollect, that
the vote of want of confidence in the Ministry was upon a
Catholic question.—( Hear bear.) They might recollect that
the House decided thee it had no confidence in a Government
which yielded concessions to the Irish Catholics —( Hear,
hear.) They might recollect, also, that these arguments fre-
quently ended in personal disputes; and if be remembered
aright, once- in a duel. lie would yield to no man
in 'hat House or in the country, in support of toleration to all
classes and sects of religion ; but that was one of the principal
reasons why he was opposed to this measure. Ile thought this
a paltry and pitiful measure which Government ought to be
heartily ashamed of. If the grant were truly for the purposes
of education, as stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, he (Mr.
Aimee) would allow him to ask a grant as large and as hand-
some as he liked; lout let him not tell him that this grant was
for the purposes of education. Education of whom ? Of a
few Catholic priests, who mould, in their turn, give edu-
cation to the people? Was it a principle, he
would ask, of the Catholic priesthood to communicate
more?oiea
r. ) Did
Ile theywaa allowm n
at theman xi
the education they themselves received-to those beneath them ?
The only education they gave was an exposition of the Sacred
Scriptures according to their own plans and principles. What
ous.tothtahtinekverfyor mee themselves
.should ?—b e
allowed the free •
think it fair, exercise of his religion, but he did not
that he (Mr, Muntz)
for hear-)
Let
e should be asked to pay
(Hear, He ___vrery man pay for his own religion.—
his.—(Cheers )
..e(
_Nal_. Muntz) asked no man to pay for
Hell
eh
bigot
ebteeta told that he was a bigot.—
(Laughter.)suffered too much both fis ( Great laughter.) He had
person and pocket to be a bigot,