The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

be prevented (ram ettending the meeting becsose
they did not reside on that property, he shosild pro-
pose a clause to allow such persons to attend, pro-
vided they had a freehold in that meeting of
a certain • value, rating that value sufficiently
high to prevent the possibility of making
freeholders- for the'. occasion,- He had now
stated- the most important alterations which
he in'ended to propose. With respect to
wlLat-• -had —beet] -said in - tavonr- of-sreniferieg the
Bill local anti temporary, he had given the deepest
consideration to the subject, alit!, tinder every
point of view, he considered that it would be in-
exp. client and dauaeroos to localize the measure.
It u mild only hold Out a temptation to the iti-
tterant orators and the itaditals themselves, to
make a march, 46 they had already done o' 20 or
30 miles, with or wi,hout blanksta, and before
.the necessary Pt oclamation could be issitsd, to
transfer the seat of disturbance to counties which
till then - had remained in peace. The question
of duration had also deeply occupied his atten-
tion, and the more he reflected upon it, the more
he was conduces! that the Constittition and the
state of the Laws would be detective and monde-
.qtroe to the support of the best interests of the
people, if provisions were not made, not to inva-
lid Ate Public Meetings, hut to strip theM of their
tutnultuary and dangerous character. A feeling,
however, seemed to prevail in the House 'and
throuch the country, to which it was his duty to
how---(Elear, hear !)---conceiving tha't it was not
desirable to giVe the last seal to the treasure
without talc ;rig more time for consideration,_
(h heat !)—He recollected also, that a most
invaluable Act, the Grenville Act, for regnkting
contested ElectiOrS, had heen passed by Parlia-
ment for a term of seven years, with a view of
ascertaining its expediency, and at the end of that
period, taking into consideration the propriety of
snifeting it to exetre or renewing it. He was
disposed to apvly the same principle to the.',pre-
ssio measure— (Hear, hear, heir !)—providled it
he not passed for at inadequate period. It
any Honoerable Gentleman, therefore, should
move to limit the duration of the Bill to a per kin
• consistent with his views of the subject, he should.
most cheerfully accede to the motrti. in his
opinion, the time ought nor to he less than fire
years--(Hear, hear, hear o—with an wider.-
tirinlitig, that Parliament should then -revise the
measure, and judge', from the experience of its
effects, r.-hether it would be proper to renew it,
If any motion should be made to fix a shorter pe-
riod than five years, it would meet with his opposi-
lino, and be would cettainly take the sense of the
House against any proposi:ion to localize the
measnre. Having thus explained all that he con-
ceived necessary, be should move the Order of
the Dac• for taking into further considerai int) the
Report of the Sc ditiuns Meetings Bill.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)
The Order of the Day having been read,
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved, that the House re-
solve itself into a Committee.
Colonel BeAttmoNT rose to submit a propo‘i.
• ..tion to the House, tending (as it was understood)
IMP.OIZTATION OF SILKS. •• to limit the duration of the present measure to
Mr. HUME inquired whether the Right Hon. Gentleinan one.year, or six weeks after the opening of the opposite, intended to make any'alteration in tl,e laws resin et-
ii4; the importation of Silks, and to substitute a duty fur the next Session of Parliament.
existing prohibition ? -
The SPEAKEL stated, that such a motion had
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUrit was under- better be made after the House had gone into the stood to a tower, that he had found it didieult to persuade the
Beitish Silk Manufacturers to adopt that view of the subject, . Committee, unless the Hon. Member sliould wish
atid ,bat he himself entertained considerable doubts of its to propose it in the shape of a mandatory instruCe
expediency. For the present, therefore, no alteration was . •
! 11(111 t o be given to the Committee.
proposed to be made in the existing laws.
Mr. J. P. GRANT moved tor an account of the total amount j Mr. TIERNEY thought that the latter course
of the duty received on stock malt, in consequence of the Act would perhaps be preferable, as it would more ef-
passed last Session, specifying the time when the var Mas p,ay- nieuts becaioe due —Ordered. ty,tudlly mat k the importance which the House
Mr. V. FITZGERALD obtained leave to bring in a Bill to . attached to limiting the (filiation of the Bill.
attlend•the Irish Lunatic Asylum Act. After a few woids from. Lord CASTLEREAGH,
- , P.ARLIAMENTARY REFORM. the conversation dropped.
Mr. LAMBTON glee notice that shortly after the Christ-
mas Mr. CURWEN then addressed the House, He
as holidays, be should call the attention of the House to the
statean the Representation tit the people hi Parliament. Ilse acknowledged that the proceedings which had
thought it fair at the same time to state the nature and object taken place at various meetings were such as to
of his motion. He should ask leave to bring in a Bill to re- require to he put down, but he contended that the
P eal the Septennial Act, and insure a mote frequeot calling
of Parliament. He should also press upon the consideration Bill proposed woold not meet the case effectually.
of the House the propriety and expediency of extending the He wished that a considerable discrimination
Right of Suffrage to Copyholders and Houseltolders.P"Yiug should be masked between the leaders and the
direct taxes, and to the entire suppression of Rotten
g..
Boroughs.—(Hear, hear, hear!)—His view should be to pro-
mislead. Instead of a sweeping and eneral med
pose Triennial, instead of Septennial, Parliaments; and he isore like the present, he thought it would have
sheold do it with a full conviction that the subject was that been preferable to adopt a Bill, which, like the
which most interested the great majority of the people
of fills
country, particularly the middling classes, sod that such Re-
I nsurrect ion Act in Ireland, might be locally ap-
form would be the sUrest mode of conciliation, and would plied, and would empower Magistrates to prevent
most tend to restore that peace and harmony, the absence all meetings at once in the distnibed counties,
without apprehension.—(Hear, hear !) -
of which no man could contemplate without regret, if not , .
1 his would have cut down the root of the evil,
SEDITIOUS MEETINGS BILL. ' which the proposed enactments would not reach,
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it proper, before and its efficiency had been proved by experience.
lie should move the Order of the Day for taking lie then stated that he had never believed the ex-
into further consideration the Report of the Sethi- aggerated accounts of cruelties said to have been
dons Meetings Bill, to state briefly to the House 1 committed by the Manchester Magistrates, butt he
the alterations which. he intended to introduce in- conceived that they hail not exercised a due de-
toree of discretion, and that the interference of his
its provisions, and to reserve his ObSiat ion, g
for the time when the clauses themselves would Majesty's Ministers had been improper. lie con-
be discussed in the Committee. As he had found tended that the tvhole mass of loyal people was
that the first provision would affect certain jute_ dissatisfied, and beii,:v.ed that there was a power
rests, and it was not the object of the measure to acting in that House which prevented it from
invalidate discussion, but to secure it against the being the faithful guardian of the public
evils and disturbances occasioned by excess of Purse• The feeling in favour. of Parliamentary
numbers, he should have no difficulty in taking Reform was spreading everywhere, and if the
out of the Bill all the meetings held within doors, House did not reform itself, the object might be
effected in a manner which all must lament. The
in rooms or apartments,—(Hear, hear, hear !)--;
Such meetings, it was therefore now intended to only meaos of restoring peace to the country, was
exclude from its operation, and as this sego- to remove the over taxation under which it la-
. ;soured. When the whole amount of its property
lation would all leave meetings of trades per-
fectly free, it would become expedient lo effect was under 300 millions, how was it possible that
attacker alteration in the Bill, and to leave out it should continue to pay (W millions of taxes ?
the clause that exempted them from the former He was astonished to hear the Noble Lord-on a
provision as no longer necessary. Som'e doubts former night attribute existing distresses to the
state of the A merican rust krt. Waa it possible
had also been raised respecting the propriety of
Making it a misdemeanor for non-residents to re- that other countries shonid he nil In indl9l of the
main at a meeting after a Proclamation wattling system of monopoly and exclusion which England
them to depart. He should therefore propose to had so loug practised against them, aosl should not
introduce words into the clause, marking it dis- now be desitous of practising it in their hint
tinatly that they were knowingly and purposely against her ? He then complained of the haste
attending for objects contrary to law. It might, with which the present Bill had been drawn, and
illerhaps, be thought that the clause ought to be lamented that it should not have been so framed
made wily penal ; beet as the object was to pre- Jas to meet the wishes of every cou-stitutional man
vent the attendance of those great numbers of in the House.
strangers, which would render it difficult for a Mr. V. FITZGERALD expressed his satisfaction at
Magistrate to carry the Act into execution, if all the alterations proposed by his Noble Friend,
they were once allowed to assemble, the necessity but IIIOSI particularly that which excludsd from
the operation of the Bill all meetings held within
of a severe denunciation must become apparent'.
As an assistance to the Magistrates, to prevent doors. He could not have acqoiesccd in a measure
those large assemblies of 40,000 or 50,000 people, .which would have taken away from a whole coon-
he should also propose, that, after the reading of try a right which it had always exercised without.
a •ProChrtinalion, all the residents should be em- dttoger,,.and which would have preven.ed the Ca-
powered to act as special, constables, and to take ihohics of Ireland from approaching the throne
strangers into custody. As it might be improper with a statement of their grievances. He was
that peraous haviug property, in a parish, should . doubly glad that hiki Noble Flientl should have

Bin was read a second time, and committed for
to-morrow.

AIMS SEIZURE BILL.
On the consideration of the Report of this Bill,
some conversation, principally between the Earls
Strathmore, Grey, and the Duke of Northumber-
land, took place.
Of this, no small portion was of a nature ex-
planatory of what was stated by two of their
Lordships on a former night, with, respect to
state of some of the Northern Counties, parti-
cularly those of Durham and Northumberland.
The Earl STRATHMO/111 added the particulars
of some very recent intelligence he had received
from that quarter, which itAicated't hat piepaia-
tions were making to have a rollick', y force in
readiness to act according to circumttances ; that
great numbers were ripe for insurrection, and
whose object, to a very great proportion of their
amount, was in his Lordship's idea that of
plunder. The Noble Duke- spoke in expla-
nation of what be had stated on the former even-
ing, and

Earl Gael-, in the course of his observations,
adverted to some facts of a nature similar to those
before stated; but the accounts he seethed to
think were not a little exaggerated. His near
relative (the Rev. Mr. Grey), as stated on a ror.
mer evening, was constrained to remove front his
residence, but it was chiefly with a view to the
safety of his family, and to ease the anxiety of
their minds, rather than from any apprehension
of immediate serious danger.
The Earl of DAR XLEY expressed a wish to
press his amendment.

Lord SIDMOUTH observed, thst th9t might, if
it should be &rimed necessary, be done on the
flirt! reading.

Auer s(ime further discussion, the third read-
ing w,s ordered for to-morrow.

Tiie Report of die 'Fraiving Prevention Bill
Was brought up.—Adjaur,'ed at ELEVEN o'CLocK.

HOUSE OF COAINIONS.

On the motion of Mr. WYNNE, and after a few worth from
Mr. Ii,,HNAL, the Sko.:Ariv.R was diteeted not to issue his war-
rallt for the election of a Burgess, in the room of Sir M:t-
n,is..ch Lopez, for the Borough of Barnstaple, until:this day
fortnight.

Air P. llo,tzg presented a Petition from Mr.
W.G Lewis, of the city of Coventry, compLiiiiinz of the dis-
persion of ;he late meeting, railed to take into consideration
the NTatie!Jester transictioNs, altootigh that nt,etitig was duly
convened, and every wean; had been adopted to keep ti,
ptace. fie prayed for login., „and to be 41:oweel to give vv.,
d.•nce at the bar of the liouse.—ltead, laid on the; table, and
ordered to be ikrint,l.

CRINIINAL INFORNIATIONS.
Srn 1. should submit a motion, 10 whi,;ll
he conceived no objection wnolti he made ; it was for collie;
of ail ei ninonl info; matioos filed by the Attarney•Gen,ral in
181£4, and 1819, for libels, specifying- their dats.s, the nann's
of the defendants, the titles of the publications in w,,,ich tile
alleAcd libels wt re contained, and the verdicts and jtnig-
nictits, when verdicts followed or judgments were pro-
nounced.—Agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS.
Mr. B! OLDEN Isroot.fltt up the Report of the Committee
of Ways and Ite,,olutiuns were read and agreed
to, ;:nd fi;:s ~n:ered :tecordin;;ly.
The Report of the Comialittee of Supply "as postponed till
Wednesday next, on the ration of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer.

suggested the alteration himself, without waiting
till it had been pointed out by others, as it skewed
that the spirit on which lie acted did not tend to
repress meetings, but to render them secure. In
the course of many 'years, no meeting of the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland had been attended with
any temult, or an?,.menacing preparations. As
they were chiefly held, however, its the chapels of
their own persuallion, It would perhaps be necee-
cary.Jo introduce the words courts, chapels, and
opsttments, into the clause; in order to leave no
doubt upon the subject.
Sir ROBERT WILSON conceived that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers deserved to be impeached for tire
system of measures which they were now emica-
vouring to carry. They were designed to break
down the fences of our laws, to subvert the very
elements of our Constitution, mid to deprive the
people of their liberties. His object, within and
without the walls of that House, was not to hold
inflammatory Nuguage, hot every Member who
felt properly, ought to express his feelings openly,
otherwise he would be abetting and aiding in the
ruin of his dummy. The state to which the
country was now reduced had been produced by
misrule, by inattention to the complaints of
the people, by a refusal to redress their wrongs
till the expression of accumulated suffetings
was attended with menace and danger. It
.was violence that provoked discontent and
shed blood without atoning for it. Had the
Noble Lord adopted a system of conciliation,
he should haVe. been one of the first to support
any moderate measure. Btit if the Government
of the country was to be turned into a Govern-
ment of force, he did not care how sanguinary
the Is ws were wade, or whether he should be their
first or last victim. It might be deemed seditious
to use the terms of ".Liberty or Death" in the
House, but he was one of those who would never
relinquish freedom but with life. He then con-
!ended that Mr. Pulteuey, Lord Bathurst, and the
other Senators who had voted fur the Riot Act at
the time of its passing, had afterwards severely
repented the vote which they had given. He
objeeted to the Bill for allowiog arms to be seized,
and particularly to the clause which authorized
constables with a Magistrate's warrant, to break
into any house at night. A man might thus be
forced to admit robbers under the disguise of
constabks, or if he resisted and killed a con-
stable before be knew who he was, he would
not be tried for murder, but as a rebel. Such an
Act had been passed in the time of William 111.
to disarm the Papists in Ireland, but even then
the search for arms was only allowed in day time.
He then complained, of the intended regulations
to controul the press, and maintained, that by
subjecting all Editors of Newspapers to the
punishmeot of transportation, they would prevent
men of respectability and property from engaging
in that professiots. He conceived that the serest
mesas of hurling religion from the rock on which
it stood, was an, attempt to defend it by other
arms than those„qCpeace and good will towards
men. He recommended to the Church not to
forget that it was a Church of peace, and to
its Members, not to exchange the tiistoral staff
for the ensigns of majesterial authority, not to
connect themselves with riot acts and military
executions, and not to display the passions of
men, when their ditty was to illustrate the met..
cies of their God. By their present system,
Ministers were levying war on the people, and
let them not rest satisfied with the hope that all
the hurdle!, would be thrown on posterity.
Let them not say, like Louis the 18th, when be
was told that his measures would bring ruin on his
successors" after me the deluge." If they per-
severed in their present course, they themselves
would be swept away by the torrent, and where
would they find an ark to give them refuge ?—He
then complained of the baste with which the
measures were pressed through the House, pre-
venting the possibility of petitioning against them.
He contended that the large majorities by which
they had been supported,
.wonld contribute most
effectually to convince the country that it was un-
der the favour of those places ant: pensions which
had been so often reproved, that the Noble Lord
was enabled to come to Parliament, not only
without meeting with punishment, but with en-
couragement and triumph, to propose measures
hat violated the Bill of Rights, and all other
rights, and, if adopted, would amount to an act
of suicide on the part of the House. There was
but one mode left to counteract these attempts.
Let all the independent men, on all sides of the
House, combine 'together. Let them raise the
great constitutional Standard—Let them say—
" &bolus Leges Anglier mutant"--Let them do
that, and. let them safely ride on the whirlwind
and direct the storm.—(Hear, bear!)

to a shorter period, he should conceive tbdt-
t tl,l
whole measure was rendered unavailing. nas
Sir It. IVILSOte explained why he shook 10 it
with I-lent. He had done so because he thought
him greatly wronged, and himself wronged by the
same outrage upon the people. He dieter,'
gave him his b d, as a sign that he tv014,,".g...,
hatui in baud w him.....(Hear, hears bear,ll„e
Ile'vreAd have be steed bad he not Ils'i,
k
done so, and more ashamed if he bad giveli .r
hand to those stained With the blood of du°
-countrymen.--(sear, hear, and a laugh.)
be
M. 13eexe begged to assure the. House that
would feel it to he his most imperative duty t°
e
consume but a very small portion of its time. 1)
observed, that be had attended with all the Wet"
tion in his power to the gallant Baronet's are
vents, but he entertained a totally different opt'
nion respecting this measure, and others connectl
with it. He considered them measures for tit:
preservation of the country against the danget',
which threatened it. If amputation were peas;
sary for the preservation of the vital parts of the,
constitution, he should have agreed to it. But be
did not think that neeessary, nor did he con9int
these measures as affecting ally part of the cons'
tution. Stich speeches as were made in that Howlby the Honourable Baronet and others near 1100
afforded to the disaffected an opportunity of de;:
hiding the distressed. He was perfectly sure o'4
there was nothing farther from their intendn*'
than to occasion such an evil. But, hoovever es''''
cellent their hearts might be, their heeds appear:
ed not so well suited for public discussion as Ml'
thought them. They had convulsed the cull„of
with complaints for the refusal of that House t 0
institute an inquiry into the events at Mauctiester'•
It was extremely ludicrous to see them urging lir
quiry in such circumstances ; tor let them 01
con.ider in what situation they would be placed i
an enquiry were gone into, and that house were°
address the Prince Regent, praying that the At'
torney-General should prosecute certain persons'
Without inquity, criminAl informations could be
applied for, or bills might be presented to the:
Grand Jury, or civil actions might be hiotight'
brit if the Attorney General were to piosecute is
consequence of the Address of that Heuse to the
Prince Regent, he mus• file informations ex oPe'
and the accused coold at once put his hand ;01°
his pocket and produce a plea in bar by present'
ing the letter of thanks. An inquiry would them.
fore be the surest way to prevent the accused from
punishment, if they were guilty. He therefor°
telt great regret that such speeches were made Oli
the other side.
Mr. RICARDO observed, that if the right of Pe''
titioning were the only right which the peoPh) '
were to enjoy, it would be but of little value ti.:'
them. The very essence of it, he conceived, 017'
to meet in Dirge; numbers, and show such a frotfr
to Ministers, as would get the wishes of the pet"
tioners to be attended to, and procure bid men' •
sures to he abandoned. It was the same with the
Home itself, which was a check upon the Crow°.
If they could do nothing more than pass Resole
(ions, it was but of small avail, but to eoforg*
them they were armed with the power of wide
holding the supplies, and calling forth public °p'
position, so that the Governmznt could not be'
come despotic. He did not deny but heat the ett:
ercise of the tight of meeting might be attended
with great inconveniences. Distresses had arisen'
and might arise, over the causes of Willa 0°
Government could have any controul, and of
these, these, designing men might take advantage fel,
excite a mischievous spirit. He was nor averse
to checking such Machinations, but be did n°
consider that the measures before them weres
• sufficient check. That was only to be found in*
reform which should place the House ie a situ's"
t,ion to express the sense of the whole people'
End not in a right to petition, which could otof
be employed by a part of the Radical Reformers;
he expressed his opinion, that though ulna((
among. them were bad and designing men, Ye
there were others who honestly entertained tb'.
belief, that Universal Suffrage and Annual Parlie
meats were necessity to the salvation of the cowl'
try. He did not agree with them, but he 04
them credit for sincerity ; and for his part eXllect:
ed the same, when he declared that he thonghti
Reform, far short of what they demanded, WOOI
i
satisfy every desirable object, and that it would
be wrong to proceed one step farther. ..., .
Mr. Ald . WAITHMAN concurred with the ts°ll;
Gentleman who just sat down in the opinion tb*
the importance of the Tight which the House v 18.4 1
called upon to give up, was not sufficiently coast; i
dered, and.he regretted that the Legislature 041 I
about to pass.enactments essentially affecting Iliac, I
right, without giving the people sufficient time t, t
become acquainted with them. Even the Citiien,; 1 i
of London were scarcely able to express tbela . t
opinions within sufficient time, though he belie" 1
that at the moment he was speaking, the Sherin; t
of London were waiting with a petition witbtift,. ' t
the doors of the House. It it was necessttri i
that these measures should be carried so hastily' t
why was Parliament not assembled sooner ?•. •
When the Address of the City was presented .i' 4
the Prince Regent it Was replied that the citizen: , I,
were not acquainted with the facts which occurred ,
et Manchester. He would ask, why was no ifi(i' 0
formation .since given to enlighten the public min._ p
on the subject ? Trite, certain papers were laid On :
the table of the House, containing inform "ati'i , 0
communicated to Ministers by several persons.. , it
But to those papers he could not afford mueb CO'! el
fidence, so far ei ll,ev referred to this trensaCtion tii
seeing how easily and how frequently two persc! ," It
give very different accounts of the same occur' . , , 1,
rence. A great deal was said about the legalls: '.' It
and illegality of the meeting at Manchester. 0.13311i' Is
niona were in truth so divided and opposed, ,t, ro r II
it at least seemed right to call for an inquiry 111.11,.' /41
the conduct of men who dkpersed that meeti.4 , .1,411
with so touch calamity to the people. ft shnujis Lsc,
be remembered, that that meeting did not; 41,1,, !ti
mode of being summoned, differ trona the meib`if , ei.,,,
ing which was held in Smithfield, B!'d bit 1:t
meeting the tieeretery of State declared t°
_,li, ;If
legal ;so et least it appeared from the comflr,rd Iftil
cations which were carried on between the sji, 4 il:t
Mayor of London and Lord Sidmouth, yet he n, ltl
nrec°' l Itt
strong reasons to believe that it was a e _ d 0
! N)1
carted thing that Harrison should be arrestcid,
tk
the meeting, and, if any resistance were °tie wi. •l
the military were prepared to act at threg

• Mr. GRENDELL Stood as -dista-nt in opinions
from his Honourable and Gallant Friend as one
pole was from the 'other. His Honourable and
' Gallant Friend had_said that his !Waitsl's Minis-
ters deserved impeachment for the measures which
they had proposed. No‘ii, this sentence of con-
demnation must involve, not only the Noble Lord
opposite, but all those who supported his mea-
sures, and as he was one of those, he must
consider himself as in the ranks of the impeached.
—(Hear, bear !)—His Honourable and Gallant
Friend had said, that he-was not in the habit of
holding infiatnmatory kngual!,e within or without
the walls of -the House.—(No, from Sir R. Wil.;
son.)—Had his Honourable and Gallant Friend
then forgotten what had taken place on the hust-
ings in the Borough of Southwark ?—(Hear, hear,
hear'!)—Had he forgotten how he shook hands
and gave the fraternal embrace to Mr. Hunt ?
(Repeated cheers and laughter.)—Did he not re-
collect uttering these words, " This country is
the most degraded country in the world ?"
(Repeated cheers l)—Or did he mean to say that
that was not violent language ?—(Hear, hear !)
His Honourable and Gallant Friend had said, that
a time would corrie when those who. supported
-the present measures would. repent their folly..
If that should ever •be ibe cise, he would not
conic to his Honourable and. Gallant Friend to
have his tears wiped 4tytiy.—(Hear; hear, hear !)
.---1-lashottld not follow him through his rmarits
on measures that Were not before the House ;
but with respect -to the limitation proposed by
the Noble Lord to the duration of the present
Bill, he tilitistid only say, that if it were reduced