The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-17 00:00:00

•
jected, but he was insulted ; and if he might use
the expression, even posted, as his name was
to be inserted in the Rolls of Chancery—as a
black sheep, or as person phteed in the pillory
—there to remain from generation to generation,
as one known to be disaffected 'to the Govern-
ment. Instead of this, he would propose that the
names should be inserted in the minutes of the
Board to be 'established. At present it was pro-
posed that all documents " should pass from the
Catholic Clergy to that Board, including confes-
sions. These could not be submitted to any Ec-
clesiastical Commission without a direct violation
of the duty of the Clergyman,— who was not al-
lowed to communicate any thing taken in confes-
sion to anyone, except the head of the Church,
where it became necessary to apply to him on a
question of conscience. He hoped this provision
would be given up, and that an oath that the con-
fessions taken related but to private matters
would be deemed sufficient. Amendments to this
effect 'he intended to move in the Committee.
Wishing, twmake this great measure as perfect as
possible, he objected to its being made to hold
any thing in ter rorenz over those to whom it did
not ;'apply in the shape of penalty.. He did not
object to the establishment of a Board through
which all regular Catholic instruments should
pass. This was a measure which might net be
necessary, but it was one that the House had a
right to impose if it pleased. He should be glad
if the Catholic could give any thingin return for
the liberality with which he might be treated.—z/
He should be sorry if the Bill passed. without
their being able to offer any equivalent for what'
they Were to receive under it. He should hot
object to the veto being given, but he was sorry
to say the Roman Catholics were against this,
and therefore he could say nothing on the subject.
He was, however, convinced that no improper
nomination would take place, and with this im-
pression, regretting that he had troubled their
Lordships at such length, and thanking them for
the patient hearing they had given to what he
had had the honour to address to them, he moved
—" That the Bill should now be read a "second
time."

Several Peers rose to address the House. The
Lord Chancellor fixed on
The Earl of MANSFIELD, who said that it was
his intention to express, as concisely as his habits
permitted, his opinion on the Bill before their
Lordships, which had been formed on mature re-
flection, and which a pretty long residence in
Catholic countries had tended to confirm. The
Bill before them had two_ parts, the .one to
render all offices open to the Catholics., the se-
cond to regulate their intercourse with the See of
Rome. To the second part many of the Catho-
lics had themselves objected, His objection,
however, was to the first part, to the principle of
removing the Disabilities from the Catholics.—
(Hear !)—The Catholics set no bounds to their
expectations; for if any one supposed the Ca-

tholics of Ireland would be satisfied without ad-
mission into all the offices of the State, without
seeing their Clergymen admitted into benefices,
the' principle at least acknowledged that those
who had forfeited their estates on account of

their attachment to their religion were unjustly
deprived. However inordinate his presumption
might be in opposing himself to many great names
on this question, he (Lord M.) thought that the
person who co .'d come to such a conclusion,
had sliewn little foresight as to the general prin-
ciples of the struggles of parties, or little attention
to the Catholic Clergy in particular.—(Hear,
hear 1)—It was hinted by some, that as the Pres-
byterian was the established religion of Scotland,
so the Catholic might be the established religion
of Ireland, leaving the Protestants merely tole-
rated. Great as, his objections would be to such
a change, he should think it far safer to legislate
in this way, than by gradual concession to give
them the political power by which this end might
be attained.—(Hear, hear!)—By our Constitu-
tion, the Catholics were excluded from office,
and Protestantism was so interwoven with it that

it appeared to him impossible to alter it without
changing its essence. It mi;ht be assumed that
there had been a necessity for the exclusion
of the Catholics. If that necessity no longer ex-.
isted, it must either have been from an altera-

ion in the Catholics themselves) or in their re-
_ _

ligion. Their religion was declared unchangea-
ble. As to the Catholics themselves, would it be
said, " you were formerly inconsiderable in your
numbers in relation to the whole empire, yet• we
dreaded you for the foreign influence with which
you were connected; ,yet, now, we find that you
are more numerous, and we doubt not that your
numbers will insure your moderation, an'd we open
the Constitution to you with some reservations,
designed, really, only to lull unthinking Pro-
testants." The history and conduct of the
Church of Rome deserved some consideration. The
desire of power and dominion in that Church was
unchangeable and remained undiminished.. For

. .
thatcbfect the Church could, on proper occasions,
make important concessions—it could even adopt
Pagan ceremonies. It was known that the
bacy- of its Priests was a matter of disciplincr; not
of faith—it was a matter of disciplineestublished
f6f the .purpose of obtaining supremacy.. The
power-of the Pope in this country was put.down'
at the tithe of the. Reformation ' • but it continued
in full vigour in Spain, in the Netherlands, and
in • other countries; the consequence was that
no concessions were made—no liberal spirit
cherished .;—no, the worst abuses .were confirmed ;
the Church denouncedyen-geance against all who
should• oppose it. He believed; indeed, that the
Church' of Roma would but rarely exercise poWer
as it did in' the massacre of St. BartholoMew ;
but when did it condemn that massacre ? When
did 'it condemn the'revocation of the Edict of
Nantz ? He was willing to admit the' friendly
disposition of the present Pope. He was Willing
to admit that from the power-of the Pope at this
day there•wasno great cause of alarm; but what
security had this country, that the successors of
his Holiness would Cherish a 'similar disposition ?
The Church of Rome- acknowledged the power
of the• Pope—every. good Catholic; was subject to
that controul—the spirit which
.animated the
whole of. their institutions was 'a • spirit direCte'd
not merelyto the estaDliArnent:of spiritual povier;
tensporg - #scpritiappt.. The Priesthood'

knew Well hOw to employ the means of effecting
those objects—they ivatche.d over the approach-
ing hour of dissolution, and •prevailed on the ex-
piring penitent to enrich their order by large do-
nations—their Mysteries, their cerefnonies, and
their sacrifices, alt tended to one object—the en-
largement of their power. The state, cit. the
Roman Catholic Chtirth in France afforded a
strong instance of this. At the Revolution the
property of the church was sequestrated—the
Priests were obliged to fly for refuge and protec-
tion to foreign countries ; so great, indeed, was
the contempt in which the religion was held in
France, that even Napoleon, with all his popri-
larity and power, was not able to get that religion
respected, even when he established it by law.
On the return of Louis the 18th, the Clergy in-
creased their-pretensions and their activity. The
consequence was, that the religion had lately
made an astonishing progress. So much so, that
in some places they claimed and obtained the res-
titution of Church property, even from persons
to whose possession it came by descent or by pur-
chase. In other parts of France,the Clergy in forced
the payment of tithes. In stating these facts his
object was to shew that the Roman Catholic reli;-
gion aimed at nothing less than absolute power—
no matter what caution might be used—no matter
what opposing force might be employed. When
that force was once removed, the spirit of inno-
vation peculiar to that religion, was sure to be ex-
erted with increased energy, and spread over a
greater space. He recollected having had a con-
versat'on on a former occasion with a foreigner
of distinction, who said to him, that as-a zealous
Catholic he regretted the failure of the measure,
bat so well did he know the character of the Ro-
man Catholic Church, its unabated desire. of
poWer in Civil Government, that if he were a
Member of the British Parliament he would have
resisted it. The Noble Earl hare entered intoa
recital of the civil privileges which the -Bill be-
fore the House purported to.grant to the Ca.
tholics. The Bill held that the Sovereign should
be a Protestant, but it permitted his Ministers to
be Catholics. To him it appeared very plain,
that if the religion of the one or the other was to
be dispensed iVith, the religion of the Sovereign
should give way. The.Bill,-therefore, abandoned
the :greatest security and -.obtained the lesser.-:--
The Catholics, by the Bill, were prevented from
sitting as Judges' in Ecclesiastical Courts,,but the
Bill did not prevent Catholics from interfering, in-
directly at least,with the Protestant Church. There
was no provision in the Bill to prevent a Catholic
from being a Preceptor to the Heir Apparent—
thz.re was no security that a Catholic Preceptor,
countenanced by a Catholic Minister, might not
pervert the religious and political principles of
his pupil. The 'Bill prevented Catholics from
holding the place of Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land ; but the Secretary for Ireland might be a
Catholic—the Secretary, in whose hands the
efficient power of the Administration lay—every
suggestion,- every representation to the Lord
Lieutenant was made by. his confidential-adviser,
and that adviser might be a Catholic. He
could not but lament the difference of opinion
which existed on this important ,subject in hiS.
Majesty's Councils. Some men might praise that
difference of opinion ; he, on the contrary, felt'
that on great questions of State a unity of senti-
ment gave vigour' to public councils, ‘vhil,st the
want of it detracted from the merit, and para-
lysed the energies of those who presided 'over
them. But it was said, that the 'influence of
Catholics would not be considerable ; he con-
tended that their would have power in the- other
House' of Parliament, while in that House; in
addition to the Catholic. Peers, who would im-
mediately come in,' a.number of Catholic Peers
might be created by a Catholic Minister. The
Catholic party would have considerable 'power ;
and any party acting in Parliament with energy
and perseverance must ultimately obtain success.
In such a state of things, what, he would ask,
would prevent the Catholics from uniting with
the Dissenters to oppose the Church. Establish-
ment, to which both parties were equally hostile?
There was one argument-which, if true, would,
be certainly calculated to make a strong impres.
sion in favour of the was that the rhea--
sure would tend to conciliate the people of Ire-
land. TO attain that object there was scarcely
any sacrifice that he would consider toe great--
but when people.talked of conciliating :Ireland;
they merely looked to a part of the peeple,of
'that country--=they did not take into considera-;
tion the- Protestants of Ireland: There were in-
deed amongst the Protestants many who, in the
generosity of-their feelings, overlooked the -dan-
gers of granting political power to their Catholic
countrymen. , To the recollection of those gene-
rous but mistaken men, hemould fecal the Acts
of the Catholic -Parliament' and 'Clergy in the
yearl6B9: They repealed the Act of Settlement
—they seized on, the. revenues Of the Protestant
Church—Alley .claimed,tithes----and though King
James, who affected to protect the Protestant
Church, and- ordered a restoration of the pro-
:perty, the Priests set his order at defiance, and
declared that-the King had no contron! over mat-
ters-concerning the' Church-. The Noble Lord
next observed, that-of the system of exclusion so
long • established, the country had no cause to
complain. Under that system the country ob-
tained great military renown—great commercal
prosperity, arid made a splendid .progress in al-1
most every useful science: The if; Onstitution
was admitted even by Protestants to be admi-
rabic. -Under its venerable sanction, :the rightsl
of the subject were protected—the power of the
Monarch restrained—the good of all consulted
and upheld. With that Constitution stood inse-
parably connected the Protestant -Church—that
Church which stood pre-eminent for its rare and
exalted qualities. The Catholic religion had a
predilection for arbitrary power. The Presby-
terian leant towards democracy—but the PrO-
testant religion, worthy of the people who hap-
pily acknowledged its sway, taught the maxims
of charity, justice, rational liberty, order, mo--
deration.—(Cheers.)--That glorious fabric over
which their ancestors watched with a pious care,
was now menaced with' danger, it was openly
assailed by its avowed enemies, and by the secret
but more dangerous arts of others. Should its
natural protectors withdtaW their assistance from

it,. it would sink for ever, and it its ruins Would
be buried the property, the knowledge, the li-
berty, the distinguishing virtues of this country.
The Bishop of LONDON said, that after the elo-
quent speech which had been just pronounced, he
rose under peculiar disadvantages; those disadvan-
tages were increased- by the speech of the .Noble
Earl (Dortoughmorsk), whose add ress as remarka-
ble for temper and ability,- On former occasions
he contented himself with giving a silent vote on
this question ; he would now beg to state the
reasons, why he was under the painful necessity
of opposing the present Bill. He objected both
to the principle and to the form of the measure.
He disclaimed every illiberal feeling.' His oppo-
sition did not originate,in intolerance. He was
disposed to grant to Men of every religious per-
suasion, wlnAe doctrines were not . repugnant to
morality,decency, and good order, every privilege
that could be granted with safety.—To the Ca-
tholics he was willing to grant every blessing
the unfettered enjoyment of their property—the
protection from injury—and the fair administra-
tion of equal laws. If he resisted their claim for
political power, it was because he was apprehen-
sive that the exercise of that power by them would
be dangerous to the Protestant Establishment. In
candour and in justice he was bound to admit the
respectability and loyalty of the Catholics of Great.
Britain for more than a centurypast. If the Catholics
of Ireland had not been equally correct, great al-
lowances were to be made for them. He
.was con-
vinced that no act of lenity or of wisdom that !
the Government could accomplish, much less
the • measure under consideration, would be an
immediate remedy for the evils which pressed
upon the country. The Catholic religion (how-
ever respectable might be the conduct of many
of the Catholics) required implicit submission to
its laws=-it asserted domination, exclusive of all
concurrence—it recognised no authority but its
own, and assumed unlimited dominion over the
Minds and consciences of men. Every individual
Who acknowledged the authority of the Roman
Catholic Church; was hound to uphold its power
--to that high obligation every other should give
way ; and it followed as a Matter of course, that
no oath, however soled-in—:no allegation, however
sacred, could be made by a Catholic, without an
important reservation on his part in favour of the
rights of his Church. He did not state this for
the pUrPose of calumniating the Catholics or of
insinuating that they disregarded the of
an oath. The Protestants simply held their duty
to God as above all (Akers; the Catholics held
their duty to God and their duty to the Church;
their oath was, therefore, to be estimated with re,
ference to this reservation-'-a reservation, no doubt,
which they conscientiously made. The abuse of
this principle, so long and so unhappily held, pro-
ditced much sophistry in argument, and bad
faith in practice; from it he drew one simple
conclusion, that. no Catholic felt himself bound
to observe any engagement at all at variance with
the high and primary duty which he owed-to the
Church. That consideration, he confessed,
weighed much with him ; it had great
.weight
with the leading characters of the Revolution ;
they, liberal and.enlightened as, they were, saw
no security for the Church but in making Abe.
Government essentially Protestant, and in.ex-
eluding the Catholics from places of. trnst, of
power, and
.authority. The necessity, of that ex-
clusion was.still acknowledged in tbe. ease of.the.
King.; but if the Sovereign was to be driven, from
his Throne for. 'professing the Roman Catholic
religion, he did not see why a subject should
complain of political, exclusion. The hill: also
excluded Catholics from the offices of Lord Chan-
cellor 'and Lord Lieutenant offireland. On what
principle, then, did, it allow them to be Privy
Councillors, Members of Parliament, and Gover-
nors-of Colonies ? In the Colonies, remote from.
domestic controul, the religion of the State stood
in need of all the assistanceoflaw•—it Would stand
in need of the countenance of a fostering and a.
friendly .Government. Did they suppose that
from a Catholic Governor the Protestant religion
would receive that countenance He sin-
cerely 'believed that the measure would tend
to great mischief, if.it did not prove altogether
fatal' to the interests of the Colonies. When
he turned' from the Colonies to the state of
Ireland, he saw still greater Cause for alarm. He
spoke in the hearing of those who had a greater
knowledge Of that country; andhe believed they
would agree with bini that the measure was dan-
gerous to the interests of the establishments there.

He could not agree with those who thought that
-the Bill, if passed into a law, would produce such
Mighty effects on the condition of the Irish People ;
it would-make no sensible alteration in the con 7
dition 'of the population of England—from it the
body of the people would receive no accession of
wealth, of comfort, of personal independence ;
the higher orders of the laity 'alone would be be-
nefited by this measure, but, the body of . the
people would remain as discOntented as ever. Of
the Catholic Clergy he was inclined to speak in
terms of high respect, but they were men—
honest but mistaken—liable to human, errors,
and to human passions ; they looked up to their
Church, which they believed should hold. the
highest and most commanding station ; they
looked upon all other religions, as founded in,
error, and
,as unhallowed, usurpations; their am-
bition and their pride were identified with a sense
of duty ; emancipation would only incite them to
work with more activity on 'the feelings of their
flocks, it would be acceptable to them only
,as it
might afford an opportunity to future innovation,
and thus concession would prove a signal of bat-
tle—not a sign of peace. The measure was. not
a measure of conciliation—it was received
.by
the Catholics with indignation—by the Protes-
tants with -dissatisfaction, becausel.the restraints
which to the Catholics were vexatious, to the
Protestants were not satisfactory. On the nature
of those securities he would say a few words.
.If
the Bill intended to legalize the CathOlic
chy,, some regulation to prevent even the suspicion
of their intercourse with the Court of Rome,
would be but reasonable and necessary.—But the
danger which was to be apprehended was not
likely to grow out of, open rebellion, .out of any.
system Which: would .explode iiiiiolent and ..sad
den commotion, fhe danger. was rather to be.ap-
prehended from changes, which,' in process of

tirne, the secret but aCtivePerSeverance of-the
Catholics would bring about in the Legislature
and Government of the country-. Against that
danger no regulation that Wisdom could devise,
would be a sufficient guarantee. Ilow would it
be possible to restrain the Catholics from the
exercise of power once possessed, from carrying
by their influenge the Elections is Ireland, from
excluding their youth from the schools of Jesuits,
from extending by every means their influence
and power—power which- ,would stand netes-
sarily hostile, and might prove ultimately
_fatal
to the PrOtestant Establishinent?* • •

e The Duke of Si..Tssea; declared that it was his
• anxious wish to discuss the preset qaestion with
coolness, but that he found it impossible altoge-
ther to suppress his feelings upon the sub:feet._
He had always considered -the present question
as one of great magnitude, and indeed of vital
consequence to the empire. He bad always con-
sidered it with a due regard to those princifiles.
which placed urn the Throne that family of
which he was an humble member. In looking at
the question their Lordships ought, in his opinion,
-to examine the origin of the obnoxious and
cluSive laws, and see whether those laws were.
consonant to the present opinion of the Catholics.'
Undoubtedly, at the period at which those laWs_
were framed, there was ample reason to justify
them, and it was not to be concealed that those
reasons were coupled with strong irritation. But
a material change had taker place in circUm-
stances, a stronger proof of which -could not be-
exhibited than that which might be collected
from the Petitions on their Lordships' Table—.
Petitions couched in terms so respectful as to
command their Lordships' attention, He would,
now proceed to 'eXamine the arguments of the
Right Reverend Prelate who had lust spoken,.
just observing at the outset- that It struck him
that much confusion arose from misnomers ; and.
that it was essential'in an argument that the
terms of it should be clearly understood. lie
would request their Lordships to consider the
words of the Articles 'of the-Cliurch.' The 3"; th,
Article ran thus 7—" The King's Majesty bath
the Chief power in this realm of England, and.
other his- dominions, unto whom the chief;
government of all estates of this realm, whether
they be ecclesiaStical or civil, in all causes cloth
appertain, and is not nor ought to be subject to
any foreign jurisdiction." There was no il;o7rni.u.:
Catholic whatever who would deny his assent.tO
that proposition. The article proceeded thus ee---
" When we attribute to the King's Majesty. the
chief government, by which titleS we understand
the- minds .of some slanderous folks to. be of-
fended ; we give. not to our princes the minis-
tering either of God's word or of the-Sacra ,
ments, the which thing the injunctions also late-
ly set forth by Eliaaheth our. Queen, do most
plainly testify; but that only prerogative.which
we 'see to have been giyen always to all godly
Princes in Holy Scriptures by God himself ; that
is, that they should rule all states and degrees
coininitted to their charge by God, whether they-
be eccieSiastical or temporal, and restrain with
the civil sword the stubborn and evil doers."—
After remarking on the definition of ec.ciesia-•
stical power which. the article that he had just
quoted contained, his RoyaleHighness proceeded.
to observe, that when he , was at the university ,
of :Gottingen (a University of which the King
of this. country 'was the. Rector), be was un-
der .a Professor whose general talents were well
known,and whose intimacy with the principles:of
the. canon law. Was acknowledged throughout
Germany. If their Lordships would allow late,
he WoUld read that Professor's definition of ei:cte-
siastical power. His Royal Highness here react.
the Learned Professoe's'opinion-in-Latin at. con-
siderable length, and maintained that it was-'
strictly conformable to the. articles, and to;
the injunction, of Queen. Elizabeth, on la'hicb
those
,articles were fOunded. If no law. could-
be promulgated for the internal regulation
of society, without the consent of the Sov-e"
reign, he 'could see no. difficulty in letting,
the Catholics have that share in the legislation/
to which, as subjects of the realm, they were en-
titled.. In contradiction to the opinions main-
tained by'the Noble Earl, with respect to- Papal
influence, he maintained -that the Pope neitW
ought to have nor had influence in any country
in which the Sovereign, did not contribute
the establishment of that influence. Nobody
could doubt that the Sovereign. of this conntri
must always be a.Protestant ; and therefore wlot
was there to apprehend from influence whirl''
such a Sovereign would of course not. confirm
And besides, if he might have the presumption
to say so, the sovereignty of this country (11(1
not reside in an individual, but in a corporate-
body. In order to show_ the fact, that the Pope
had no power. of interference without thesaho-
tion. of the Sovereign; even in a Catholic cowl*
try, his Royal Highness adverted to the consti- •
tuition of a General Coencil,. composed of all the-
Catholic" Churches Chri,;tendow, of Bishops
of Sovereigns, of Heads of Monastic Orders, of
Heads of Univi,rsities, &c.•a'rid instanced the in
efficiency
.of the Bull of Pius the.4th, issued t°
Margaret of Anjou, then-Regent of the Nether-
lands, which was successfully opposed. both by
the hierarchy and..the:civil members of the 69"
vernment as Well as the efforts made in vain "
Philip the Second in Spain, although aide'" tip
the Pope. If such were the difficulties, ever in
instructions
of Catholic country, of carrying the in
of the Pope into effect, a fortiori thosedifficul-
ties
would be much increased in a Protestant
country. After arguing this point at 47-onside
able length, and with- great ability, his .Royal,.
Highness maintained the exPedieney rePeaunt
laws. the passing of which nothing but state
. .
cessity—a necessity no longer in existence—couldll.ajesty
jostifv. Ile was anxious that all his
-rehended (al-,
any-dangers which mightebh app
faithful ,subjects
of
the Constitution',
Tito
srhovoiudliangezinijiachy securities blessingsagi
anv,) as the Legislature might though he confessed that I
upon to can
What their Lordships were called
concede, In
that night, was to legislate nut to
ss_
3.voual,
-lore but.eNe
refit, not the Roman Catho. a
shiiosn, opinion,l) shut
to make
mtlatke they
such
he nre,ogtntloatn.ioteasany co‘t:cL.
dill(i
e.
ennoit
expe anticipatea
class of his `Majesty's subjects. 'Msßoyal nig"