The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-05 00:00:00

that the recommendation of the Finance Committee,

for the reduction of the office in question, ought to

be attended to.

Sir J. SEBRIGHT •did not think himself jus-
tified in voting for the- abolition of the office.—
( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL said, if the. Master General dis-
eharged his dude.: properly, there could be no occa-
sion Inc this deputy office.
Col. WOOD supported the utility of the office.
Mr. W. HORTON knew that opposition to
any recommendation of the Committee would meet
with popularity in that House, bin he was not in-
clined to gain that popularity any more than that
which was to be obtained' out of doors, by pretend-
ing to vote for the reduction of 1,2001. a year for
the relief of the people.—(Hear, hear.) To do so
was a complete farce.—(Hear, hear.) If the office
was not necessary, he said, " Let it be abolished ;"
but let them not, for the appearance of effecting a
saving, injure an important branch of the military
service.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BARING thought in the Committee up
stairs, and still thought, that this was an office that
might be got rid of. The Artillery Department
was HOW said to be in an excellent condition, and it
was urged as a reason for retaining this office ; but
he begged to call to the recollection of Hon. Mem-
bers, that when the department was in quite an op-
posite state from the present, this same office of
Lieutenant-Genelal of the Ordnance ,existed. But
.the best evidence to its uselessness at present was
the continual absence of the persons who filled it.
Ile should support his Right HOB. Friend in taking
the sense of the House upon the question.
Sir E. OWEN explained.
Mr. CALCRAFT did not consider the finances
to be in a condition that required the proposed re-
duction. Those Members of the House, who, like
himself*, wer4 net members of the Finance Commit-
tee, and who were, therefore, ignorant of the Com-
mittee's motives for recommending the abolition of
the office of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance,
should decide oh the evidence given in the report.
On this ground he appealed to the 'House whether
they could doubt the necessity of upholding the office
in question. When he was at the other side of the
House, he pressed the reduction of the Ordnance
Department as strongly as his lion. Friends there
were disposed to press it. (Cheers and laughter.)
'True, the Commissioners of Military Inquiry had
thought it might be dispensed with, but, at the same
time they recommended an arrangement, and a
hoard, over which the Lieutenant-General should be
placed. The Duke of Wellington, some years ago,
had reduced the Ordnance Department to the lowest
scale possible. As to the argument, that an officer
of the line ought not to be appointed to the sitea-
len, hie experience in the Ordnance Office con-
vinced him that an officer of the line was more fitted
to fill it than an officer of artillery. There was one
reduc:ion he regretted ; namely, that of the fakirs'
of clerk of the Ordnance from 2,000/. to 1,2001.
He had himself proposed an increase of the salary in
1824, and succeeded, with the unanimous consent of
Parliament. lie was sure the House would not
ogee to diminish the efficiency of any public office.
He should not vote for the continuance of the office
in question if he did not think that the abolition of
it would diminish the efficiency; of the Ordnance
Office.
Sir .f. GRAHAM did not think the Hon. Gen-
Ilemun was under military or arbitrary controul, but
.he certainly gave the Hon. Gentleman credit fm
fit esight in his Parliamentary conduct. The Right
Hon. Gentleman's sympathy with the Lieutenant-
General of the Ordnance was very natural. The
Paymaster of the Army was not far removed from
the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance. When
the abolition of the latter was proposed, it was to
be expected that the Paymaster should tremble for
his situation.
" Jam proximne ardet Uealegon."
The Lion, Gentleman then went on to prove, from
the evidence on the repott, that the office was un-
necessary, and that it ought to be abolished. He
was sorry to have heard the Right Hon. Member
for Newcastle say the saving proposed w.eis a farce.
A military authority had once said that county
meetings too were a farce. The Finance Com-
mittee was the last legacy of Mr. Canning—that on
which his memory rested. How much surprised
then was he to hear an Hon. Gentleman reject as a
farce the first saving recommended by the institution
appointed by his deceased friend and patron, The
public would see from that, that they were not to
depend on the friends of Mr. Canning for an at- I
tempt to reduce the public expenditure—
" Spein si *pram ad*citis hahuistis in armis
Penite. Spes sibi quisque sed hxc quain angust4 videtit."
lie hoped the Parliament would answer the expec- •
tationg of the country by sanctioning the recom-
mendation of the Committee.
Mr. W. HORTON explained.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY thought, and so did
all persons well aoeuainted with the matter, that a
military officer was the fittest to be at the head of
the Ordnance Departmetit, Officers of the other
services might be more advantageously employed in
the other offices; and for himself he was always
glad to see a naval officer in souse way connected
with it, so great a part of the business of the Ord-
nance had necessarily a reference to our service on
the sea. Allusion had been made by the Hon.
Member for Rochester, to the absence of the Mas-
ter-General and Licittereint-General of the Ord-
nance, but he quite agreed with the Paymaster-
General that this was the exception and not the
general rule. He was perfectly convinced that by
the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-General of
the Ordnance, the efficiency Af that important tie-
partment would be injured in a greater degree than
the State would be benefitted in the saving of the
salary, and he would accordingly rote against the
measure.
Mr. STANLEY said, the Lieutenant-General
was a link in the chain at the Ordnance, which was
file the chain mentioned by the well-known poet—
And drags, at each iemove, a lengthening chain."
Lord Anglesea, it was eaid, found great inconve-
nience in the absence of the Lieutenant-General,
but then Lord Anglesea was is a bad state of health',
and therefore no argument could be founded upon
this circumstance. He AO not certaielly think that
the case now under consideration was one of the
most glaring; still, however, he would vote foe the
suppression of the office, because, under the existing
state of things, no retrenchment, however trifling,
was to be despised.
Lord MORPETH said, the chief, and rteteed,
,only, argument of the lion, and Right Hon. Gentle-
men opposite seemed to be, that there was sufficient
buskiess to occupy both the Master-General And
Lieute.oant-General of Ordnance ; and even if theie
statement to this effect had not been triumphantly
met by hie Hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle,
yet there was one stubborn fact—the fact of the re-
peated and continued absence, at different times and
-coder various eifewnetances, of this indilcpensable
officer, which never eould be got over. And he
rnust add, that, considerierg who was at present the
Master-General of the Ordnance, that was not the
period at which he could feel any, the least, regret
at an addition to alts occupations of that officer,
hoping that the fresh business would have the .effeet
of employing those leisure haters which appeared to
have been hitherto devoted to his private correspon-
dence.—(Great cheering.)—Wit!' reset to the
actual reduction, he would say, that the Rupee
would derive little credit from opposing it, after
having itself appointed the Committee, which it was
admitted upon all hands enjoyed the .coadenrce of
the country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
having been a member of the Finance Committee,
tied having expressed an opinion -there, that the re-
duction was impolitic, thought it right to avow that
opinion in the face of the House and the country.
'The question was one which ought not to be de-
,eided on grounds of personal conduct or feeling.
Mr. MABERLY complained of the office of Ar-
chitect on the establishment at the 'cower as a
emecure.
declared that

GE had alread;