The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

NOTICES OF MOTION.

Mr. HUME gave notice that he would, to-morrow,
move for returns of the number of appeals brought befo:e
the House of Lords in the last two years.
The HoN. MEMBER also gave notice that he would
move for a return of thenumber of Custom-house agents
discharged in consequence of fraud, and the amount of
penalties recovered from the sureties.
Mr. H. BERKELEY gave notice, that on the motion
for the third reading of the Small Debts Bill, he would
move as an amendment that the Bill be read a third
time that day six months.
Mr. WALLACE postponed to the 29th instant the
several motions of which he had given notice for this
evening, respecting the Post-office and the Customs.
The HoN. MEMBER also gave notice of a motion for
a return of the amount of receipts from the sale of
papers published by order of the House, and also of the
expense incurred in defending prosecutions in the Courts
of Law, arising out of these publications, in order that
the balance should be ascertained.
THE GAMBLING ACTIONS.

Mr. CHRISTIE gave notice, that in Committee upon
the Horse-racing Penalties Suspension Bill, he would
move that the power of proceeding for penalties under
any Act of Parliament should be taken from common
informers.—(Hear, hear.)
BRAZIL.

Mr. LABOUCHERE gave notice that on Thursday
next he would bring under the consideration of the
House the existing treaties with Brazil.
THE TREATY OF WASHINGTON.

Mr. HAWES moved fora return of papers connected
with the treaty of Washington.—Ordered.

REGISTRATION OF (IRELAND).

Sir R. FERGUSON gave notice Of a motion for
returns relating to the registration of electors in Ireland.
THE QUEEN OF OTAHEITE.
Mr. HINDLEY begged to ask the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether there
was any truth in a paragraph which appeared in one of
the morning papers of this day, to the effect that Queen
Pomare, of Otaheite, had been deposed by the agents of
the French Government ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL had not so much leisure as the
Hon. Gentleman to read the morning papers.—(Laugh.
ter.) He had therefore not seen the paragraph referred
to, and was unable to answer the question.
LIVERPOOL DOCKS.

On the motion of Sir H. DOUGLAS, leave was given
to bring in a Bill for the improvement of the Liverpool
docks.

RAILWAYS.

Leave was also given to bring in Bills for the forma-
tion of branch lines connected with the Manchester and
Leeds, the Hartlepool, and other railways.
SUPPLY.
.... .

The Order of the Day fo; going into Committee of
Supply was read, and postponed till Wednesday next.
POLITICAL ASSOCIATIONS AND THE PRESS.
On the motion for reading the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Poor-law Amendment Bill,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had a question to put to
the Attorney-General. It appeared that the proprietors
of several newspapers in Ireland had withdrawn them-
selves from the Repeal Association, the reason stated by
them for so withdrawing being that Chief Justice Penne-
father had laid it down as the law that the whole of an
association were responsible for any article that might
appear in any paper of which the proprietors
might happen to be members. Mr. Barrett, of the
Pilot, and Mr. Gavan Duffy, of the Nation, had both
stated this as their reason for withdrawing from the
Association. Now the question he had to put to the
Attorney-General was this—whether, if the matter pub-
lished in any newspaper, the proprietor of which might
happen to be a member of any association, the whole of
the members could be made responsible, if that matter
was put in as evidence against that association?—(Hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Hon. Gentle-
man had been kind enough to apprise him, a few
minutes previously, that he intended to put the question
to him. In answer to it, he would say that he had no
doubt the proprietors of the newspapers in question
were well advised, and had exercised a sound
discretion in retiring from the Repeal Assooiation.—
(Cheers and laughter from the Ministerial benches.)
But whatever they might do, under that good advice, it
was impossible for him (the Attorney-General) to form
any judgment in reference to the general question whe-
ther the contents of a paper, of which the editor might be
a member of an association could be used as evidence
against the whole of the members. unless he knew the
objects of the association, to what extent the editors
were mixed up with it, what the articles were in refe-
rence to those objects, and what use was made of those
articles.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.)
Mr. ELI'HINSTONE said he was a member of the
Anti-Corn-law • League—(Ministerial y
witchhemerosn)o—powly._
cheers)—which
was an association for doing
(Ministerial cheers and laughter.) Now there was a
journal which was called the League, in connection with
that Association, and he wanted to know whether he
(Mr. Elphinstone) and every other member of that league
was liable for every article that might be published in
that paper ? He wished to have an answer to that ques-
tion from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Hon. Gen-
tleman had addressed his question to him, but he did
not know that he was entitled to the honour of such
a distinction—(Ministerial cheers, and laughter)--but,
in answer, he would strongly recommend the Hon. Gen-
tleman to take the advice ;of his ordinary professional
legal adviser.—(Renewed cheers and laughter from the
Ministerial benches.)
Lord EBRINGTON and Mr. HINDLEY here rose about
the same time, amidst the derisive cheers of the Mem-
bers on the Ministerial side of the House, anti the
latter Hon. Gentleman commenced speaking amidst
cries of " Order, order." The Hon. Gentleman having
sat down,
Lord EBRINGTON, who had first caught the
Speaker's eye, proceeded to ask, pursuant to notice, the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, whether it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to introduce any measure—or the
same measure which had been already proposed, with
respect to the Administration of turnpike-trusts in
England.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had intended to intro-
duce a measure on the subject, but that a Commission
had been appointed to inquire into, and report upon the
subject. The Commissioners had fully investigated the
matter, and he expected that their Report would be
ready in a very short time, and before introducing any
measure of the kind, he wished to have the advantage
of receiving their Report.
Mr. lIINDLEY said he must confess that he was
not satisfied with the answer which had been given by
the Attorney-General to the question of the Honourable
Gentleman behind him (Mr. Elphinstone). He (Mr.
Hindley) had consulted his professional law adviser on
the subject, and that gentleman told him that the Asso-
ciation called the Anti-Corn-law League was a perfectly
legal one. But that would not decide the question if the
Attorney-General was directed, as in the case of Mr.
O'Connell, after 11 orl2 months, or along time had elapsed,
to proceed against its members.—(Cries of " Order,
order.") He repeated it would not decide the question
which his legal adviser had decided in his favour.—(Re-
newed cries of " Order, order.") He now asked tht
Attorney-General whether the Anti-Corn-law League
was a legal Association or not ?--(Jeers,and cheers from
the Ministerial benches.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL appealed to Hon.
Gentlemen on both sides of the House, whether he had
ever declined answering any question put to him in that
House ? If the Hon. Member had really any question
which he wished to ask him (the Attorney-General),
relative to himself (Mr. Hindley) he would be very happy
to answer it, and without a fee.--(Cheers and laughter.)
But if he answered the question now he would be oc-
cupying the public time in a way in which he did not
think he should be justified in doing.
IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned
debate on Lord John Russell's motion for a Committee
to inquire into the state of Ireland being read,
Mr. HORSMAN rose and said, that he felt it his
duty, as an English representative, to enter his protest
against the policy which her Majesty's Government
had pursued with regard to Ireland. It had been ad-
mitted on all sides that we had arrived at a great crisis ;
and he should support the motion of the Noble Lord, be •
cause he thought it necessary to inquire how that crisis
had arrived.—(Hear, hear.) There were certain facts
on which no difference of opinion existed. It was ad-
mitted that three years ago Ireland had been handed
over to Honourable Gentlemen opposite in a state
of peace and tranquillity.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The habits of the people had improved—(Hear, hear)—
troops had been withdrawn—(Hear ,hear)—the adminis-
tration of jurtice was respected—(Hear, hear)—and the
repeal cry was, comparatively speaking, unheard.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, however, the repeal cry had become a
national cry.—(Cheers.) More troops had been sent to
Ireland, and the country was covered with garrisons ;
thus proving that the Government intended to
act upon the announcement which had been
made last 'ear, that conciliation had been
carried to its utmost extent.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and
onlyvicti o
awaitingan d th that leiosne.ti
Learned Member for' cork had been prosecuted to con-
viction,
frntehcel Gentlemancourßt
whi
which
has wouldnow
consign him to a gaol. --s
ittear,.hear.) y what means
Right Hon. Gentleril had boasted the other night cf
had that convictioi
tatheebn obtained ?—(Cheers.) The
his moderation and fairness; but he (Mr. Horsman) must
confess that he had never Itnosvn of any proceedings in '
which moderation and fairness had been more com-
pletely dispensed with than in the recent prosecutions
in Ireland,---(Hear, hear.) He would not dwell upon the
animus which had been exhibited throughout those pro-
f end.: Le
pro-
ceedings byi the Learned Gentleman who had repre-
sented the Government--(Hear, hear)—to the extraor-
dinary preliminary boasting by which the case had been
prejudged.—(Flear, hear.) He would not speak of
the calling upon one of the counrel for the
traversers to produce his license—(Cheers)--or of

the insisting upon the presence of the traversers in
the Court during the whole of the proceedings.—(Hear,
hear.) These were all extraordinary and vexatious
proceedings—(Cheers)----but they were matters personal
to the Attorney-General.--(Cheers.) But why was the
list of witnesses on the back of the indictment
not furnished to the traversers ?—(Hear, hear.)
It was essential to the defence that they should
be furnished with the list, and he would ask
the Attorney-General for England, if in the
whole course of his professional experience he had ever
known an instance in which the list of witnesses had
been refused ?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the" At-
torney-General if lie would, under similar circum-
stances, have refused the list? Then the application for
a copy of the jury list, which was equally necessary to
the traversers, in order to prepare their challenges was
alsorefused.—(Hear, hear.) The sheriff had trans-
mitted that list to the Home-office, and
had offered to' furnish a copy to the de-
fendants if the Attorney-General would consent, but
that consent had been withheld.--(Hear, hear.) What
reasen could they have had for such refusal ? Was it
not to be presumed that they were acting under the in-
structions of the Government ? The production of those
documents were essential for the defence of the traversers
on their trial, and yet these documents had been refused.
Then, with regard to striking off the names from the
jury-list, how had they proceeded ? It was said that
eight of those who were struck off were repealers. He
took that statement as it was made, but there were
still four others who were to be accounted for—two
Roman Catholics and two liberal Protestants. He should
like to know why it was they were struck off. The
Government, by the proceedings which they. adopted,
succeeded in keeping twelve men on the jury who
combined the three-fold elements of being Protes-
tants, Anti-Repealers, and Conservatives.. With
regard to the omission of the names from the
general list, though it might have happened through
accident that they were left out in the first in-
stance, the Government took care to avail them-
, selves of the error, and they forced on a trial with an in-
complete jury list. It was a maxim of law, according to
Lord Bacon, that if a man found a door open and en-
tered, and having purloined something broke out
through a different way, he was guilty of burglary. It
was in a similar way Government acted in those trials.
They obtained a jury according to their own wish,
and obtained a conviction, but it was one not likely to be
much respected.—(Cheers.) It was a conviction which
he hesitated not to say, was a false conviction—
(Cheers)—and would be followed by no moral results.
And if no moral results followed from it, what practical
results would follow from it. The Right
Honourable Gentleman told them of one practical
result which had already followed, namely, that
peace was restored to Ireland. But he was not aware
that the peace of Ireland had ever been broken.—
(Cheers.) It was a peace like a sort of smothered rebel-
lion.—(Hear, hear.) As the Noble Lord said, they held
Ireland by military occupation. They held her in
peace as long as there was peace in Europe
—(Hear, hear)—as long as they were in a state
of quiescence ; but the moment a move was made,
the moment a shot was fired, they would fall in
pieces.—(Cheers.) If they continued their present
policy to Ireland, they must play the coward at home,
and truckle to France and America.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet did not read aright the
the spirit which now prevailed in Ireland. He would
do well to consider that spirit. It was a spirit which
had before now been seen in England and Scotland.
It was a spirit similar to that with which Scotchmen
secured the independence of their country ; it was a
spirit like that which Lord Chatham said
he rejoiced to see in America ; and let him
tell the Right Honourable . Baronet it was a
spirit which great men sympathised with, which good
men inculcated—a spirit which the boldest and the
wisest statesman would do well to consider, and which
the boldest Minister might not be ashamed
to tremble at. Notwithstanding, the vaunting
sno
oof
much
enhi
nc latlilgseehwt
forh o HI
whole
ena
mromupri araebsl
at
e tßhhaiasrdo.
nn et
To .t moment
Nhtv
hewrohemo
aaa
dds
the Right Honourable Baronet delegated the govern-
ment of Ireland ? - They were told by the Right
Hon. Baronet the other night of the commotion which
was created in the Home-office by the Clontarf procla-
-1 mation. They were told that an attempt had been
made to wrest by force the executive from the hands
of the Government. They were told that on that occa-
sion the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Lord Chancellor,
and the Attorney and Solicitor-General were sum-
moned to the Home-office, and that they remained
four days in debate. The only man who was not sum-
moned to that important Council, was the Prime
Minister of England. (Some observations were
passed across the table, which did not reach the
gallery.) He must say that he saw many causes of
alarm in the present state of affairs in Ireland, and these
causes of alarm were not at all lessened by the
manner in which they were treated by the Govern-
ment. It seemed to him to be a case on which no per-
son could reflect seriously without alarm. He did not
mean to enter into any of those questions connected
with Ireland which were not fit subjects of inquiry. He
would only say on that occasion that he thought, among
the many causes of complaint which the Irish
people had, one of the greatest, as well as the
most frequently urged, was the want of sym-
pathy among English. Members for Irish grievances.
Every evil which had ever been felt by Ireland was
in some degree owing either to English bigotry
or English dislike. We had hitherto denied all the
claims of justice, till now—justice and self-interest
were combined. This was no longer an Irish
question. He believed that if the prosecution
which had recently been conducted in Ireland
had been conducted in the same manner against
the Chartists, there would have been a sensation from
one end of England to the other, and the
business of that House would have been stopped
until 'the injustice had been redressed. The
course of justice should be as dear to them on Irish as
on English soil.---(Hear, hear.) He believed that
the unity and integrity of the empire were
at stake. The - eyes of Europe were upon
them. He would read to the House the opinion
of a writer, whose authority on such subjects stood ex-
ceedingly high. The Honourable Member then read an
extract from an author, whose name was inaudible,
in which, after a statement of the position of Ireland,
it was said that, unless in time England permitted some
small inroads to be made upon her tyranny, the result
would be fatal to English greatness. Such was
the opinion of a writer, who was as impartial as he
was enlightened, and he hoped that the warning thus
given would not be heard in vain.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that, as an Irish pro-
prietor, taking a very deep interest in the welfare
of that country, he must express his regret at the tone
and manner in which this question had been sub-
mitted.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did hope,
when he saw the announcement of this motion in
the paper, proceeding, as it did from a Noble Lord, for
whose statesmanlike qualities no man in that House
entertained more sincere respect than himself,
that Ireland would not again be made the battle-
field of party.—(Hear, hear.) If he had conceived
that the course proposed by the Noble Lord was
calculated to benefit Ireland, no party ties or personal
predilections would have prevented him from stating the
opinions which he entertained.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
before he proceeded further he thought he might con-
gratulate gentlemen on that side of the House that the
charges on which the Government bad been
arraigned were admitted to be unfounded.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for Sun-
derland, with that abstinence of party spirit which
characterised him, admitted that they .had not been
established ; and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member
for Devonport, had also acquitted the Government.
But he found that, in the speech of the Noble Lord there
was a sentence which showed that, even in the Noble
Lord's opinion, in the circumstances in which Ireland was
placed, it was necessary that something should be done to
assert the majesty of the law.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought that was a great admission, coming from a
party which inculpated the Government, and had net
when in power made itself very remarkable for its
power of enforcing the majesty of the law.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord had proceeded to attack the Govern-
ment for their conduct in the disposition of their patron-
age. Now he (Mr. H.) must admit that there was no
great enthusiasm in Ireland in favour of the Govern-
ment.—(Laughter.) But they must look to what
was the nature of popularity in Ireland.
There was nothing easier for a Government
than to attain popularity in Ireland. They had only to
throw themselves unreservedly into the hands of one or
other of the extreme parties, and they would be sup-
ported by the shouts of exultation on the one side, and
by the silence of terror on the other. Such popularity
was inconsistent with his notion of an impartial
Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Government of
Lord Normanby had no pretensions to the title of
impartial.—(Tory cheers.) That Government obtained
popularity by giving up everything to one party solely
and exclusively.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) He would now come to the question of the
Noble Lord's proposition. The motion of the Noble
Lord was in itself very large and comprehensive,
but the suggestions which he threw out for
the amelioration of the grievances to be inquired into
were exceedingly small. All that he proposed to do
was to make a new appropriation of the revenues of the
Church, and what the Noble Lord considered a more
impartial distribution of the patronage of the Crown.
The Noble Lord acknowledged that his hopes for the
pacification of Ireland, as far as they depended on his
measures, were unfounded, as he admitted those mea-
sures to be impossible. Now he (Mr. S. Herbert) en-
tertained an opinion that the Roman Catholic clergy
ought to be endowed. He entertained that opinion,
because he was anxious to see them placed in
a situation above the necessity of taking part
in political agitation. He believed that in many
parts of Ireland where an indisposition had been mani-
fested on the part of the priests to join political agita-
tion, it had been difficult for them to obtain their dues.
He believed that the people had themselves protested
against the amount of those dues, and the necessity of
political agitation had been superadded to religious in-
fluence, in order to obtain them. This was a
lamentable thing, as the Catholic religion was one
always allied with the maintenance of peace
and order. Again, he wished to see the clergy
taken from a higher class of men than those who were
now found in it. The Noble Lord had said it was better
that they should be taken from the lower order of society,
but he differed from that opinion when he saw the little
respect paid to the clergy when they were of a rank only
a little above the peasantry. After all, the Government
proposed much more than the Noble Lord opposite—
they proposed a more comprehensive plan and greater
changes. Ho did not include, of course, the pro-
posals of those gentlemen who supported the Noble Lord.
There was one point—he meant education—to which
almost more than any other conceivable means he looked
for the amelioration of the condition of the Irish

people. The Irish peasant came over to this
country in the - harvest, where he saw men of
his condition enjoy all the comforts and happiness
of a highly civilized nation, and he went back to Ireland
at the close of the harvest time with no feelings of dissa-
tisfaction, for the Irish peasantry, above all others, were
remarkable fore their- gratitude ; but he 'went back
to Ireland an unchanged man, without exhibiting any
desire to adopt the improvements and the advantages
of those which he had-Witnessed in England. sifl'o 'what
could that be attributed but to the want of education.
He would recommend the adoption of measures to put
an end 'to that state of things-, and he would
have the Protestant and the 'Roman 'Catholic
Hof Ireland put upon a footing of the most
perfect equality. It was by such means they would
ultimately effect the amelioration of the condition of
that unhappy country. He did not think, as some
others seemed to be of opinion, that nothing would
satisfy the Roman Catholics but the spolia-
tion of the Church Establishment. That Esta-
blishment did not press upon the Roman Catholics
for it was supported chiefly by the Protestant landlords.
There was another point to which he wished to refer.
It appeared to him that of all the symptoms he had
seen since he had the honour of a seat in that House,
from which he could augur a better state of things for
Ireland, it was the tone they had adopted in the present
debate—he meant the tone of kindness and good feeling
in which every Hon. Gentleman who had spoken on that
side of the House had referred to his Roman Catholic
fellow countrymen. He believed he spoke their senti-
ments, as well as he did his own, when he said
they were willing and anxious earnestly, and at
once, to co-operate in effecting the improvement
and amelioration of their common country. He made
these . observations by reason of the interest
he took in the subject; and looking with anxiety to the
proposal which. the Government meant to make, he was
prepared-to give their measures not the equivocal assent
or lukewarm vote of one in office, but conscientiously to
give them his warm, earnest, and hearty, approbation.
Mr. SMYTHE said that he rose for the purpose of
explaining a sentiment in a speech which be made last
year. It had been said that he wished to see Ireland
governed in the spirit of O'Connell. Such a sentiment
was never expressed by him. He said the very reverse.
What he said was, that while he disliked both extremes,
he preferred seeing Ireland governed in the spirit of
O'Connell, rather than that of Cromwell ; but he disliked
both extremes—persecution and prosecution on one hand,
and undue truckling to the Roman Catholics onthe other,
He could not give his vote on this occasion without ex-
pressing a hope that the Government would come for-
ward with some well-timed measures—such as the
settling of the relations between landlord and tenant,
which, if brought forward in a spirit like that which
animated the concluding remarks of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down, would renew
the link which should subsist between the people of
Ireland and the Conservative party. He hoped the GO-
vernment intended to move and bring forward this and
other measures, and if they did so he-did not despair of
seeing the Irish people once more looking to them for
sympathy, and not prepossessed against them.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that the Catholics of
Ireland were satisfied with their priesthood, whom they
loved and revered, and who were worthy of their love
and reverence.—(Hear, hear.) lie challenged them
to show any priesthood so pure in every act, so
devoted to their religious duties, such admirable
ministers of religion. The Hon. Gentleman said that
the Catholic religion was a monarchical religion. In his
opinion, it would be more coirect to designate the reli-
gion to which the Hon. Gentleman belonged as a mo-
narchical religion, because the Sovereign was at the head
of it. They accounted it one of the proofs of the divine
origin of their religion; that it perfectly adapted itself to
every phase and state of society which existed. It was
under the fostering care of that religion that Belgium was
working out a spirit of rational liberty, and they looked to
it as the religion which would supply the elements of
order against the wild outpouring of irregular liberty
in North America. It was that religion which restrain-
ed the people of Ireland under excitement, and enabled
them patiently tobear distress and poverty. It was that
religion which instilled into the people those sentiments
of liberty_which he trusted would ere long have fruit in
the prosperity and legislative independence of the country.
He had not risen with the intention of answering the
Hon: Gentleman on the other side. He had risen as
One of those who in an early part of the debate had
been styled convicted conspirators.—(Cheers.) He did
not acknowledge the justice of that designation unless
it could be considered as a conspiracy for
men to labour to their utmost to discharge
the duty which they owed to their country—(Cheers)—
which was the next in importance to that which they
owed to their God.—(Loud cheers.) As one of those
convicted conspirators, he rose to speak, perhaps, his
last words in that House—to make his parting declara-
tion before he returned to Ireland, to meet and
to incur the vengeance of the Right Hon.
Gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers.) He said to incur their
vengeance, for he should continue to exert him-
self with as little ability perhaps, but with more ar-
dour and zeal than ever, to incur their vengeance, by
'exerting himself in the cause of his country.—(Cheers.)
He did not rise for the purpose of offering any apology,
or urging anything in palliation of that for which he,
'amongst others, had had the honour of having been con-
victed. If he urged anything on that point, it would
only be ,to call upon every man in Ireland, who had not
Yet joined the repeal movement, to act as he (Mr. J.
O'Connell) and his companions had done—(Cheers)—
to devote their liberty, their property, and if necessary
their lives, as he and his companions had done and were
ready to do—to restore legislative independence
to their country, which was her inalienable right. He
would ask the people of England what after all had been
secured by the course which Ministers were pursuing?
,What had they gained by their victory?—(Cheers.)
Had the cause of the repeal of the union received a
check?—(Cheers.) On the contrary he firmly believed
that two or three years of the most active agitation
could not have given that cause the firm hold on the
minds of the people which that prosecution had given it.
(Loud'eheers.) They had not by that prosecution
strengthened. the connexion between the two countries.
He believed that if the connexion between the two
countries were based upon firm and equitable principles,
and the people were placed upon a perfect equality; it
would • tend to the prosperity and welfare of both.—
'(Cheers.) 'He spoke not from any personal considera-
tions. If he spoke from any personal considerations, he
should ask that the heavier weight of punishment should
fall upon him who was young and better able to bear it,
than upon one who was not so well able to bear it on
account of his years, and his immense labours in the
cause of his country.—(Loud cheers.) But as a friend
to the connexion between the two countries,
he regretted the course which the Government had
pursued, as tending to weaken that connexion. The
people of Ireland had been taught last year, in that
House, that they had nothing to hope, either from the
Government or from the House. They had been in-
formed, not by one who spoke merely as an individual
Member of Parliament, but by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
--(Loud cheers)—that concession was at an end in
Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) What course did the people
of Ireland pursue in answer to that insulting declara-
tion ? Did they have recourse to violence ? No.—
(Loud cheers.) They betook themselves to constitutional
agitation.—(Cheers.) They attended what had been
called multitudinous meetings, at which might, be seen
hundreds of thousands of poor men, sweating under a
sense of their wrongs—(Hear, hear)—ground to the
earth by the tyranny of their landlords—(Hear, hear)
—but one degree removed from absolute want—(Hear,
hear)—meeting peacefully, legally, and constitutionally
—(Cheers)—to listen to the advice of those who told
them to avoid every breach of the laws of God or man
—(Loud cheers)—to commit no violence, but to trust
to the powers of the Constitution, and to the efforts which
were made, peacefully and lawfully, to obtain redress.—
(Cheers.) The good order which had been maintained
at those meetings had been confessed by all. A high
authority in Ireland had said, that those meetings must
inevitably tend to 'outrage. Forty of those meetings
had been held, and no outrage had been committed, ex-
cepting the destruction of a gingerbread-stall, if that
could be so denominated. Not a single accident had
happened.(Hear, hear.) Females had mixed in those
meetings unhurt.—(Hear.) He had himself seen the
Hon. Member for Cork dragged up the hill of Tara by
the efforts of the people, rather than by those of the
horses of his carriage ; and there were young mothers
there,.who were as safe and as kindly treated as if they
had been by their own firesides. It had been asked in
that House why, instead of resorting to those meetings,
they had not come to Parliament ? What hope could
they have from Parliament, when they had been told
that concession had reached its limits ?--(Cheers.) But
an Hon. Member had appealed to the House for them.—
(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Limerick, one whom
he was proud to call his friend, because be had showed,
and was showing, himself thetrue friend of his oppressed,
fallen countrymen, had made an appeal to that House.—
(Cheers.) And what had been their answer ?—(Hear,
hear.) He had asked merely for inquiry ; that inquiry
had been refused by an overwhelming majority—
(Hear)—and that majority bad been taunted by their
base and infamous press, because they had extended to
his Hon. Friend the common courtesy which was due to
'every gentleman, of listening to him.—(Loud cheers.)
What had been the course which they had pursued in
Ireland ? They had allowed those meetings to go on,
and when the eleventh hour had nearly elapsed, then
came out the proclamation against the meeting at
Clontarf. With respect to that proclamation he
found it difficult to speak with anything like
temper; even after this space of time had elapsed. At
the time of the occurrence he certainly thought
that those who originated that proclamation were
murderers in intention. Since that time he had
laboured, and he hoped, not unsuccessfully, to abandon
altogether the beltef that, among Christian men,
there could be found those who could entertain so fiendish
an intention. But if they had intended to cause a massacre
at Clontarf, they could not have gone a better way
about it. The Right Hon. Secretary of State had said
that that proclamation was posted up at three o'clock in
the afternoon. He had no doubt that the Right Hon.
Baronet believed such to be the fact, but he
had been grossly misinformed. That proclamation was
not in the hands of the Lord Mayor of Dublin till
four o'clock, and it was not posted in the
village of Blackrock, near which he resided,
_till

it was too dark for it to be read.-
-(Loud cries of " Ilear, hear.") The late Mr. Tyrrell
lost his life in consequence of the late hour at which
the proclamation reached his parish, which was
in the vicinity of the place of meeting. He
was obliged to leave his bed—to expose himself
to the weather, and contracted the mortal dis-
ease, of which he died, in endeavouring to save his
parishioners from the hazard which they would other-
wise have incurred. In spite of all their efforts
an enormous crowd flicl assemble at Clontarf, thouglh of
course, it was much less than it would have been.
It had been said by the Noble Lord opposite that Mr.

A
O'Connell ought to hare gone out to the ground
tried the legal question as whether the Government
had o,:right to stop him or hot. He did not think the
Noble Lord had reflected well when he stated that. 10
believed it was the advice of a paper which supported
the Government in Dublin. Had Mr. O'Connell 'gone
out with that excited multitude, what chance was theret
when the-crowd was brought in contact with the sOll.
diers, of escaping a tumult. It only required one evl
disposed person to show a stone, and the most serious
consequences would have ensued. With regard to the
prosecutiiins he should not speak of them—he left,
them to others, if from no other reason, yet from this,
that he despised them too much,—(Hear.) He should
not dwell on the fraud and chicanery which marked
them, or the names omitted from the jury-list,
for which, though the Attorney-General was
riot to blame, he had not scrupled to avail himself of the
omission. With respect to the men who composed-thie
jury,.he did not mean to say that they were men cap
ah e
of violating their oaths. He believed their verdict Was
given with all the sincerity and honesty of inveterate '
prejudice and bigotry.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
It was for those who chose this jury to account for the ,
manner in which they had chosen it. They had struck
off the extreme men of one side, who were supposed
be favourable to the accused, and selected men who were
known to be most unfavourable to the accused. Most
of those persons had been born and niirturedin the Ines
•
inveterate prejudices against the principles andyers°
of those whom they were called upon to try. Let spy
one go into the Dublin booksellers' shops,
and there
they would find books for the education of young
children filled with ten thousand exploded calumnies ;
against the Catholics of Ireland and their religion-:-
(Hear, hear)—and when the youthful mind was so pat"
soned, it was no wonder they should be bigoted,, nar-
row-minded men.—(Hear, hear.) He came back to the
_A
question he had originally intended to put. What gw'
had these State prosecutions done ?—(Hear, heart;)
;
Would the people of Ireland be more attached to the
union, because the lives of the people were jeopax'dis •
by the manner in which the Clontarf proclamation w.,47;
issued ?—(Hear, hear.) It had been said by the Nell 4,
Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, that the issue of tut ,
proclamation had been agreed upon on Friday night' 131,10
it was deferred until Saturday afternoon, in order tot
word it properly. Now, when the lives of so many of
her Majesty's subjects were perilled, he did think,„..,w.
Privy Council might have delayed their sitting on •r,',4
day night until they had written it. Anything wit'.
have been better than the mere possibility of such an
currence. A rumour was prevalent in Dublin which
would not mention—but yet he thought it better to a° -in
to show in what condition the minds of the peoPleis
Ireland were. He hoped the rumour was not true-- •
was ready to disbelieve it. It was said that two Me"
bers were to be found on that Council—and he wouldl„
that neither of them was the excellent and gallant %at
tlemen who commanded the forces in Ireland--
two members of the Council suggested that the II;
dreds of thousands might be allowed to assemble
0t
Clontarf, and when the excitement was at the highest
pitch that troops should be poured in, the Riot
read, and, if they did not disperse in fifteen rainutes,r
disperse them at the point of the bayonet—(Hear, hqt:t
It might not be true, but such was the impression vier
was prevalent in Dublin. He would he happy to hill,
this rumour denied upon authority. Would alicrtnr,
make the people more attached to the union—(K
hear)—because their rights and liberties were WI be
placed in jeopardy?—(Hear, hear.) Would they
more attached to the union, because they saw the mangy(and this was a question which might be better 0%0
by any other than himself)because they saw the tees
whom they loved and revered, and who bad "•cie,
for forty years their champion and their pri,..)
condemned and waiting for his sentence ?—(Cheer at
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had told thew tea.
it was his intention to bring in some very good in e•
sures. Perhaps it was. But the Right Hon. Gee
of
man did not need him to tell him that the peoriem s ,
Ireland distrusted him—(Cheers)—and it would ta,eo
great deal to convince them that he was in earnest ic,ibB
he said it was his intention to amend the franchise• .as
franchise was a very good thing; but of what use ~t.s
the amendment or the extension of the franchise w7iii
they who were one-third of the empire possessed 101
one-fifth of the representation?—(Hear, hear.) Licuich
heard a good deal said about the small proportion wDO,I
the Irish paid to the taxation of the empire. That e,
not the time to go into the discussion of a mere 07 es.
rical question, but he did not hesitate to say, and 'the
tlemen opposite knew it well, that Ireland paid in ire,
proportion of three to four in the taxation of the enitio
eli
and yet her representation was in the proporet
of only one to four of Great Britain.—(Cheestil
Right Honourable Gentlemen talked of a occi
foe education, and if they were prepared to act in gun,
faith, they would confer a great benefit upon the c the
try; but why did they not do something to imerlor it
material condition of the people—(Hear, hear) ths4
was well known in the history of human nature
as men improve in their physical condition, 00100
desirous to educate their children and elevate themmating
their own condition. They talked, also, of anielioraltof
the relations between landlord and tenant. Here
had touched a most delicate and dangerous subjeceir'ejo
(Hear, hear.) • He had received many him hose-
of letters, addressed to him by persons vi
hopes or fears had been extravagantly excited hY:sjs
present Commission. So maddened had their re'ers,
been by the evils and oppressions of the existing
tti'de
tern, that it would be very difficult indeed to pet's not ,
them in the end that the Commission was wao
a mockery and a delusion. Many of thosein
had been ejected from their holdings were it
fond hopes that they would be restored 0 heir
land ; whilst those who had superseded them in
farms, were under the equally dangerous im,Pretheir,
that they might be turned out to make room Ter bsur°
predecessors. Some might say that it, was Yell a
Pell
for the people to entertain such ideas ; but the Pfirise
who said so had little notion of what thoughts 7ivispsir•
in the minds of men writhing in the depths of "'weal;
Did they wish to see a mad and universal ou
shaking the whole framework of society in Irelan;ste,
(Hear, hear.) He trusted that they would, at arches°
endeavour to deal efficiently with that danger. .a noi
Who were in the power of the Ministry al let
8u the-, fn
supplicate their mercy.—(Hear, hear.) ,„-, the-, •
them turn to the condition of Ireland. •L'inoneJ
adopt some measure which would bring back the V'
of Ireland to Ireland, and open up her resono_ try
(Hear, hear.) There were drains from that °There
under which no country ever yet prospered. About°
were nearly five millions of absentee rents. lid
million was shared from the reduced governmen
penses of that country. There were in all nich •s,:t
millions drained from the country—a sum w gre'sh,
ceeded her total contributions to the revenue• vngli
deal was said about the impossibility of drawing t
attegee::
capital into Ireland. He believed that that ine cos,
ther a fallacy. But, even supposing it 'to be thew,
let them adopt some measure which would ft
Nasal
the use of their own capital.(Hear, hear.) s
them to say whether the present state of thliMclu"
go on, or whether they would boldly meet the. the
of Ireland. He did not wish to say anything l°eople,st,
of menace, but he would ask, what had the P, iiru4
Ireland to -attach them to English connectiotili'rea
was there in the tyranny which they now, enatder .4
exceeded any which they could suffer unli the
reign power ? He would not say anything in th°°&X
of menace ; but he would ask whether, even- fatni"
virei. bane
some of those reverses to which nations as tent:
were subjected, came upon them, was it wellonred
one-third of the empire in permanent hat
(Hear, hear.) Was it well to be accuraulati; swot
against themselves when •they raiet„„ Ire‘ehler
ing up love ? Was it well to, n.....5`'" spc ";00.
a miserable slaye, instead of having herhesr.) 4join
ful and loving sister and friend ?—(Hear, eonces-tea.
oeople of Ireland had never yet received anY tie.
r any real kindness without labouring t°
,10a, Gehlloo
fold. " Try it with them again," said the theY or)
man, " you will find the same disposition eitiat if hi
always shown.—(Cheers.) I tell you past rite
conciliate Ireland, not at any period of 3,_°‘‘ „rosP!, fis
tory—not in your wildest imaginations of tr gloFe is
of England, will you arise to such a pitch sir, sh ii
when you shall make Ireland your friend :gi„istrYtos,
willing to be oonciliated. I call upon the 101 naitoci,
call upon this House—l call upon the
~13,gt to 11.°_„eoe-
to make the experiment.—(Cheers.) 3“:"Ostice-iroon
and fear not ; be unjust—continue your
tinue your tyrannies—continue your InsuiLotgl Irerf
your heads be the-fatal consequences."--( the
Colonel VERNER said that he knew .ontdiogrle
tnowiths eye
well, and he regretted to say tha die Pes
numerous concessions that had been reade_A from oer
of Ireland, they were still more estrange"' he 144 • *
s .sjf
other—Protestant from Catholic—than,.
~rd if
known before. He would ask the Noble L°
tad
,befro'
state of things as he had just described roil the to
lowed to continue ? On a recent °cease; 01)0,40ty
testants of the North of Ireland had, wil their
theme more than ordinary difficulties, displayed mit to t"bi tb°
in casting aside the blandishments held
eriler)
the Repealers. According to the statembeellicea. jade
Hon. Member who had just sat down, Wila%bed
understood that the great complalbnkt7kcoacthheetVi;re:lol,X4.,
with regard to the late trials, was,
been put upon the jury—but, he woulaorhis Jur
officer of the Crown, in the discharge
thatl posit oitlitepeo,
have placed avowed Repealers in
that the hYtiii:e
had been proved beyond all doubt_ e
movement was an emphatically_ t-a•_""Roinlin
and
mere fact of the great body of the
dto t Ile
clergy to a man joining in that agetutatiol'eallichne ore
frequent appeals which Mr. O'Connell 8e geninarl
ad
gious feelings of the peasantry 0 r Bibbo _
Verner) knew a case himself where
ac
qR
?oydivitif;
been put-upon his trial and twice
an, that
.1,0
j tb
uror
of one juror holding out, an a
juror eventually was found toties a
have bolo os
a they Tclarts.
Ribbon conspiracy. ..
the shoo
Member for Dungarvon, in his late appeal then !lir tniode
which
displayedY A R p
byw the Right
y beforemtits staticrlthe
Court of Queen's Bench in Irelavriiddi Rthiagthhteja.sou
;fie
in
II
the
everbeeseunit eonfabhliesdobtoserbvriantigonvsi
whilst ue depict the
with his regiment in Ireland : he should the° r to ble,
ved by the Pt°h°at o°cs.
generosity,' the charity
hearted people submitted poorer, and the
bcmhietetedrfudtlinosepsmas
at he shoula r;rfle,
doswtituhnpwrileFicrihmee:teodpi-riiiiict
wtiohnast.wolutmhbaednbeefietnfraeslkanedd
?byTHo
of Irelsnt flops
it would tend greatly to the benefit. tha
Hon. Gentleman before he took his seatfrom
personisso lim
was to visit Ireland, and observe t
the Yellia gent Nag
5.
rience' the state of that country. n
regiment was stationed in Cork, antilGheii nisetdel et
lott'ne 1-1:1 rYer
in the co 1 hot.
sent to protect the proctors le and themore
A collision'ensued between the poi) men w 0 .Vera
Tee „ote
He passed the barn where thoseb see the to 10 bear
1 were given to fire, and severs
lying; and if 'Hon. Gentlemen were 0:0
to
the wailings of the women, they
causes which tem
nances of the men marked by sallenultd
hags, a little better what were the SV
PUZde'rSt

Pr(
try
del
an(

fall
sla
of ]
PrE

141,
iihr)

_..~

trproduce social disorganization
in that unfortunate coun-
y. Soon afterwards those _tithe proctors were mur-
dered near the very spot where the rencontre took place,
and their bodies were removed to an outhouse attached
to the clergyman's dwelling, and he (Captain Layard)
w,as sent on detachment to protect him. He saw the
Zergyraan walking about his grounds with a pistol in his
and, and escorted by a policeman armed with a loaded
carbine. In that parish there were not six Pro-
tefants, and no
_church for upwards of one hundred
tr. Was not that enough to engender a
~ feeling
_in. the country ? He had seen thousands
fall in the field of battle, but he felt truly sorry that the
s„m„Uglater of those men was a blot upon the escutcheon
Pl"` Ells country. Notwithstanding the great delay which
:eeeded the Catholic emancipation, the Catholic people
C' Ireland believed that they were to be placed on the
footing w trialse Protestant brethren, but the
ate disastrous for by no other name than dis-
ac3treus could he style them, had fully proved that
teralllegie emancipation was little better than a dead leht-
li• The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for t e
cline T,
liepartment had stated that no Coercionßill
to'nui Id be required for Ireland. In alluding to the next
wise should disclaim all
eA tt intention of personal feeling
n to give offence to the Right Hon. Gentleman
u nrney,General for Ireland, but still he feltit his
tit,ln3' to
say that the course which he pursued in the late
pu was one which brought the law into great disre-
httee, and was one which bore its own fruits. At the
eon trial
iLi at the Old Bailey of Lieutenant Grant _ his_
his cue PPealed to the jury whether they would find
Irelandt guY iltafter the Attorney-General of
Cro—elleof the first law officers of the
Grant (c in that country had done the same.
aPtain Layard) would ask the Rollie if Lieutenant
all he had not an excuse to plead, which could not at
allowed in extenuation of the conduct of the
Atin4°ll. Gentleman who sat opposite to him. (The
Iligh-q-General for Ireland). He agreed with the
nient.,o4. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart-
wider .e_at..no benefit could arise from keeping Ireland
shor,tstand.'
can military rule—" a house divided against itself
Could they suppose that a people who
tern their own self-command by the adoption of the
rights ace movement, were not entitled to equal
°ldetrs' and a People who proved their love of peace and
th they met in hundreds of thousands without
faie• "'latest breach of the peace, and he should go
ther and say even of good manners, were to be • g.?••
jasrlired 11 martial law? He called upon them to d•
tro'tee to that country, which they had so long and so '
quiltmisguided and neglected. If they did so, tran-
tiezio7l, would be restored, affection for the British con-
iur" would be increased—there would be a union of
s--the condition of Ireland would be permanently
tiDo'„l.7.ed—the flag of commerce would once more float
her coast--the palaces of the nobility would be
lui.erted from receptacles of mendieancy into abodes of
llati-J-4nd God would bless the country and those who
übettered the condition of her people.—(Cheers.)
orate I'EBRAND began by saying he would demon-
lead: to the House, even from the speeches of the
6t-i1f.,,0f the. Irish agitation,. that the Whigs were notd
menu
tit"ievern Ireland as the Conservatives. He ha
duty last session to vote against the Govern-
lied
not the Irish question, and he did so because they
egitilet taken proper steps to put down this disgraceful
liticl%ti.Tt., Since then the majesty of the law had been
eouvlie-7;-ta, and the conspirators had been brought to
the During the whole speech of the Noble Lord
to he rgher for the. City of. London, his object seemed.
titn to bring the laws of this country into con
oppl,;!', What the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen
kia;'t,e, when" a convicted conspirator entered the
Posit-ie'--(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Op-
IleDIe) Was he not cheered and welcomed by a small
llstrn,ean party opposite.—(Laughter.) The Whigs
1104— Dower in that House, nor in the country. The
_ealitoriaild well Member for Cork seemed to be part-
Y well received by the Hon. Member for Montrose,
aous hiniself proved to be carrying on a treasonable
Pirii-,;racY with the Canadians—they were congenial
4,orerstJitenewed laughter.) He had heard the Noble
ak`,"'uf,r,cl J. Russell) lay a great stress upon the is-
ugh theproclamation by the present Government,
ereofGovernment,Noble Lord did not deny but the meetings
ti
'tad oos a dangerous tendency. How many proci ama.
Nob, Rail Grey's Government issued, of which the
liews4 Lord was a member? Upon reference to the
AllpiPkPers of that date, he found that the Marquis of
isstLe3e3', the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, bad
Or til7 a proclamation for the prevention of a procession
intelye Trades' Unions in Dublin. Only one clear day
;vas ;tenet' between the day on which the proclamation
navelsted, and that on which the procession was to
arrie --ell Place. , The present Government had been
kble stli called upon, by a large number of the peace-
the respectable inhabitants of Ireland, to interfere.
did Ile ease of Lord Anglesey's proclamation, what
kit Connell do ? He advised the people to sub-
litt„ Proclamation, but immediately established
was is" klub, or Association. A second proclamation
IttleXt?suestil,,suppressing this new Association. What
.
these7n37, Mr. O'Connell and his adherents met in
',eta A third proclamation was issued, and
sa _
tio4:eetnigs too were prevented. Another Associa-
htti44B. got up, and a fourth proclamation was issued,
ls4g It down. Mr. O'Connell called these proclama-
li 4lgerine Acts, and then public breakfasts were
Eby
tted for the same purpose, but these,vere disposed
e, w,° magistrates. What did the agitators do next ?
tiele; "eelared they would not use any exciseable ar-
-0)00,; and, at a meeting of St. Thomas's parish, Mr.
R 11404411 and the lion. and Learned Member for Dun-
tiele, declared they would not use any exciseable
ar-
c COnu undeclared
these proclamations were withdrawn. Mr.
i_said he would breakfast on bread and milk.
the 1414-g"-) He supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman.
the eillber for Dungarvon would address the House in
P,ellet;tse of the debate. What did that Right Hon.
-4e sai(f" say at the meeting of St. Thomas's parish ?
l'eht or "leas the union was repealed he would. not pay
entl tales- They might distrain, said the Right Hon.
alrian at the but who would buy? Me would not tell any
ught Ilioline.niGeeentitniegm.:ano
,follow his advice, but, said. the
" So help me God, if I -don't
ttrrandwin .$ll-I°w my silk gown." (Mr.
til)wondered if the Right Hon. Gentleman had
itth....!co:zinual fee for his silk gown.
-ti M.ErenE
thter.) his
has swallowed it.—(Great
ppl-1,10 „
'ne ti; --'"A-DlD—ln a few years after, notwithstand- '
I,__
aleise vehement declarations, the Right Hon: Gen-
iloletsii who had
accepted office, and acted in conjunction with
Pledged themselves to resist repeal even
utvord.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
ealirreswag' aeon after the issuing of these pro-
ted, and bound over to take his trial.
thsir Whigs allowed the trial to drop, and he became
tai it most strenuous supporter. Mr. O'Connell lately
weuld.prefer the Whigs to the Tories; but what
tt
pion daliuring
Lord Grey's Administration, in a
ter. , as he termed it, addressed to the people
G:1114 in en
832, after the affair at Wallstown, to which
attd the ,r opposite had alluded, in which he
ga aeserved to be impeached, and that more
prebvile°o(l had been shed in Ireland by them during
tile?-merlt th Us year and a half of Lord Grey's Govern-
-4,4 during the t nty years preceding of Tory
1,1415 t r 'he history of 'gig- rule, he said, had been a
s of blood.
He said -that Lord Strafford had not
ht he hand
blood in Ireland as Lord Anglesey, and
1144 further expiated his erne. on the scaffold. After
tvi, League er abuse of Mre .10'Connell, the Anti-Corn-
-144
Lord Grey• the Hon. Member said
O'Connell had declared, in one of his procla-
'eaten:, that Lord Grey was a childish old man, who
11.1i4 thalt,lei the most insane hatred
.against Ireland. He
-uord Grey fae,• °Ppre, • had only two ideas, that of hating
4:11Y, who sltig• Ireland, and providing for his own
)411- ketbewere a cruel infliction on this country. The
, .pte r then read a second time the assage of
In to entlell's 1 referring
ant
to the people of Irelands
Prod``° Ws a :3', and applied it to Mr. O'Connell himself,
tr,ed fur
infliction on his country, and had well
x t nls own family—his principal object seemed
tare
° ;tee own „
liakeup fierce hatred between Protestants
entered /I„Catholics2
_which, were it not for him, would
As izao'lnee, subsided. The Hon. Member then
th:l3eiatiot lengzdefenee of the Protestant Operative
faith • That body had been censured for calling
helc'lsil7noa: Catholic religion a false and idolatrous
ilo,tef did he would ask what other assumption or
~(Ottiall Oath ap ancient
.egislate upon than that the
Isi(Le religion was false and idolatrous?—
kaye;"-Tu theo, no, from the Opposition benches.) . He
the I, ICO3 „assertion, though- Hon. Members might
id°lretestair The Goiernment was bound to support
htOtty. IT: religion; and to prevent the extension. of
kididelatry ?w *hat *as the Roman Catholic religion
net sat, _ --(Cries of "No no.") Hon. Members
tPort ; but he kneW that' the Government must
ketordi' Protestant religion, and that they could
Ike ding to the principles of the Constitution, In e st 1,0 atholic reli • rd th gion on an equality with it. The
coliad_ Q Member for the City of London bad
trttCters. glee of that House, and even of his former
~nehiet, an4ane present motion had completely pros-
elivneal 0 he cMr•Ferrand) would give it his most
IyhoOOntlocior)Z2sition.
thi4 had- ju t '3APIER said, that the Hon. Gentleman
sat down had, as usual, talked about all
,e red th Isn,. Bill
RePeal, Algerine Acts, and he
liottltley e. e% Member had not touched upon the
)v k Onion.
anus enlber -,---(Laughter.) He did not think the
44. h e 16311 . v‘ as justified in saying Mr. O'Connell
hi3Orioura',,ue ha given up his lucrative practice in
Teasiged rneae Profession, of which he was a distin-
-1'1414°,41 prZel. ; he had sacrificed-all his brilliant pr?-
•P ordereetsi and the immediate welfare of his
or td benefit
the kelt, his countrv.—k ea ,
Pie ',Per had spoken of Mr. O'Connell's abuse
tent gs, but
LA °vett he had not mentioned his abuse of the t thi
a loom ear.)
l'ato °use nu;_, le-t Mr. Shell walked across the floor of
lni 4:',"1110 dialogue
and took his seat beside Mr. Per-
gh er,7l7edrizewhtt surprised at the
.occurrence.
f,roias`e roi a Zortion of which was in a rather
entlshown ee' rhe Hon. Member for Knares-
Theruan,
an . several documents to the Right Hon.
ex 13(411 Members left the house together.]
e the ANT Corp„
Poole ER continued—He could hardly
(leet t°eut 1,1) °f Ireland for the
nplareas(egitrillitpateieoln) and
Itiidared it Itlle 'light Hon. Genteler had
ek4t so it
I:.4,.that Ireland was his chief difficulty
as 1%1,7 ln 1844, and the difficulty would
PrO those m the Hon. Gentlemen opposite were
k2eut Gov "ales. fie did not find fault with .the
If _
until t'il4ed he tvhnoLo f(,141‘ putting down the monster
the eY had a s gin It was wise in deferring doing
tkinst deternfufficient force to enforce authority.
'e their ba ined to govern Ireland by force they
went ttoo be arineeiofn.ets in readiness. The pensioners folloNe u it Neu the intention of the Govern-
quo.'nment had') the course they had be n. The
i)lviihtitin4.n.444,llnridwi„beyarwould itoe?_dautede_.e.m:rh,eorhstef.eaur:wisely in bringing the
Cork
If they
t o trialsenthim V
ta
et
Sir
„Ink such ay Ireland ?—(llear, hear.) He
°Vier " enurse
) was
oe _ might be dangerous and he ,
°Pinion that the present Govern- '

ment would not have sentence passed upon him, but
would allow the judgment to hang over his head. He
hoped the House would not suppose for a moment that
he meant to advocate the cause of repeal ; he was its
most strenuous opponent, and every man in England
would, he felt assured, take up arms, if it was necessary,
to prevent its being carried into effeet--(llear, hear.)
It would be throwing Ireland into the arms of France.
But if O'Connell were sent to prison what would be the
consequence ? Would not he still retain his influence
over the priests ? Would.not the priests exercise their
power over their flocks ? The people of Ireland
might remain passive, but what if they did
not pay rent or taxes ? Thousands might
be ejected for rent, but they could not eject millions.
Then, in case of war with France or America, how
would this country be situated ?—(Hear, hear.) He
remembered the last war—when, even with our supe-
rior fleet, French vessels reached Ireland. Now there
were war steamers, and with a disaffected people, it
would be almost impossible to prevent France from
making an impression upon Ireland. He did not believe
that at the present moment the Irish were disloyal ; but
if they were treated in the manner they had been, their
loyal feelings would be entirely alienated.—(Hear,
hear.) It might be said that it was imprudent to men-
tion those things, but was it not better to mention them
in times of peace, when remedies could be applied
than in time of war, when it would be too late.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought the Noble Lord, the Member for the
City of London, had made a very moderate speech, and
he thought the proposal for doubling the grant to May-
nooth College very reasonable and very proper. He
further agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that
the Catholic hierarchy ought to be acknowledged by
their titles, and that Government should ordain the mi-
nisters of that Church. The Hon. Member's dislike to
the Roman Catholics reminded him that he had been in
Scotland some time ago on a visit with some friends of
his. They were- elderly ladies—(Laughter)—in short,
they were old maids.—(Renewed laughter.) He asked
them their opinions of the Catholics and the Episcopa-
lians, and they said it was impossible the Catholics could
be saved, and even of the Episcopalians they had great
doubts.—(Alaugh.) He would read some lines from an
old book, which he had copied for the purpose of reading
to that House :

_
" They cried the mass down, 'cause (they said)
The priest in unknown language prayed.
And yet themselves their prayer-book sent
To such as knew not what it meant ;
And it was read, and psalms were sung,
And sermons preached in English tongue,
Among wild Irish, when not one
Knew what they said, but cried 0 hone!'
'0 hone !' they cried, and shook their head
With grief, to change their mass and bead •
For what they knew to be a prayer
No more, poor souls ! than Banks's mare."
(The Gallant Commodore proceeded to narrate an
anecdote about Banks's mare and the six-and-
fourpenny stallion, amid the laughter of the House.)
That was not so liberal as the Right Hon. Baronet,
because he gave his bull for nothing.—(Roars of laugh-
ter.) He (Sir Charles Napier), however, did not think'
that such a bull would satisfy Ireland.=(Continued
laughter.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder-
land had supposed the case of England being smaller
than Ireland, and that Ireland had, with a large force,
conquered England, and 'established in this country the
Catholic religion. Now this was the position in which
Ireland was now placed. There was no possibility of
Ireland conquering England ; but he (Sir C. Napier)
would suppose a case that was perfectly possible. Let
them suppose that Bonaparte, when he had an enor-
mous army at Boulogne, of two or three hundred thou'
sand men, witlfan enormous flotilla, which, for some
time, had bewildered our fleet in such a manner that, if
the French Emperor had had a further force of forty-
six sail of the line, he could have proceeded up the
Channel. Now let them, under these circumstances, sup-
pose that Napoleon had conquered England, and after-
wards that he had been unwise enough to have brought
over with him French parsons, and that he had turned
all the clergy out of their different livings, and the
bishops out of their dioceses, and had directed the new
clergy to preach in a language the people of this country
did not understand—he (Sir.C. Napier) asked whether
this country, under these circumstances, would have
remained long quiet?—(Hear, hear.) He thought
they would not have been long before they had made
some effort to drive the French out of England.
So with the Irish. They were now attempting
to drive the English parsons out of their country. The
Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, in his speech,
went further than the Noble Lord the Member for the
City of London.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir C. Napier)
thought he was right in doing so.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Lord, in the first place, wished the whole Protes-
tant Establishment of Ireland to be turned over to the
Catholics. He (Sir C. Napier) could not go quite so far
as that, but he quite concurred in another proposition
of the Noble Lord, which was, that the Catholics should
have a portion of the proceeds of the Protestant Esta-
blishment, which, in point of fact, was the same propo-
sition as that which had been made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield. The Noble Lord proposed that the
Catholics of Ireland should have a portion of the tithes
collected in that country, and he (Sir C. Napier) thought
it was but a reasonable proposition, and ought to be en-
tertained. Another proposition with respect to this sub-
ject was, that the Establishment in Ireland should be
abolished, and the proceeds given for the purposes of
education. Who would be injured if the Establishment
in Ireland were abolished, and how great would be the
benefit if the proceeds were given towards the education
of all classes of the community ? He, however, was
afraid that the nation at large would not take this view
of the case.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial
beaches.) They would not be• prepared for it.—(Hear,
hear.) In order, therefore, to prepare them for it, the
Government should make a beginning. The
Govermitent ought to show a willingness to
do justice • to. the • people of Ireland, and the
nation .would soon. follow them.—(Hear, and cheers.)
This was what they must come to at last. How was
Catholic emancipation • obtained •? It was a kind of
" Thank you for. nothing."—(Laughter.) It was re-
sisted as long as possible and yet, at last, the Right
Hon. Zaronet—much to his credit, it was true—brought
forward the Measure.; but then it was only a " Thank
you for nothing" affair.— (Laughter.) Justice for Ireland
would be conceded; but not until it was taken, as Ca-
enuin6pition had,. been taken, as a kind of
" Thank you for nothing." The Church in Ireland, as
at present constituted,
.could never be maintained.
Sooner or later the Right Hon. Baronet must come for-
ward with some measure of conciliation, and the sooner
he did so, the happier would be the people of the country
at large. —Now he (Sir C. Napier) had a plan to pro-
pose, which was simply this-that whenever a living in
Ireland became vacant, instead of appointing another
person, the proceeds of the living should go to the
Treasury, to be applied .to the purposes of education.
It was inconsistent with common sense that a parish' in
which the number of Protestants was so few that the
clergyman was obliged to preach to his clerk and two or
three others—it was inconsistent with. common sense
that, under these circumstances, a' clergyman should.be
appointed with a large ,salary. The IsToble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies had said that the Catholics
would not accept a portion of the proceeds of the Pro-
testant Establishment, even cif it were offered to them.
Why, did not that show the greatest moderation on the
part of the Catholics ? Did it not show that they did
not wish to rob the Church 'it all.?. But they at
the same time -wished to be placed in the same
position as the Protestants. It bad been said that the
tithes in Ireland had been commuted, and that the 'land-
lords were the parties who paid the tithes. Who was
it, hi would ask, that paid the landlord ? Suppose the
landlord had two farms on his estate ; one he let to a
Protestant and the other to a Catholic tenant—the Pro-
testant had a church found for him, but the Catholic was
obliged to pay for his.—(Hear, hear.) It was contrary to
common sense to suppose that the Catholic could cope
with his neighbour the Protestant. He (Sir C. Napier)
would just relate an anecdote bearing upon this subject.
He was going on the road to Cork, in a common fly,
and he met a very decent-looking young lady—
(Laughter)—he saw that she was a decent and respec-
table-looking girl.—(Continued laughter.) This was no
joke. He said to the young girl, " I suppose you are
all the better now the tithes are commuted, and the
proprietors pay all the tithes ?" She said, with the
utmost naivete, Do you see that man working? He has
got a bit of garden for which he is obliged to pay tithes
to the Protestant clergyman, who he thinks is sending
his soul to the devil, and he is obliged to pay to the Ca-
tholic priests to prevent his going there."—(Laughter.)
What did this show, but that the Catholic, in point of
faith had to pay two tithes ? The Noble Lord, the Se-
cretaryfor,the Colonies, in the course of his speech the
other night, read in the most solemn manner, the oath
which was taken by the Catholic Members of, that
House. He (Sir Charles Napier) could not help say-
ing, that this was an insult to the Catholic Members of
that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, after that,
inquired, if it was proposed to send the Catholic Bishops
into the House of Lords, because unless they died, he
said, there could be no equalisation. His (F.,,ir C.
Napier's) answer to that was, that he would send no more
Bishops into the House of Lords, because there
were too many there already.—(Laughter.) He would
not say whether he would wish to see those out srho
were in at present. He would ask the Noble Lard
whether he would continue to pay a Protestant clergy-
man a large salary, where there was no congregation ?
Could there be a more unjust thing than
that ? He looked upon the idea as absurd.
They had for the last 300 years been endeavouring! to
make all the people of Ireland Protestants, but they Mad
not succeeded, and he thought that everybody must :see
that such an attempt could never succeed. Let the
Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues come forward
with some comprehensive measure with regard to Ire-
land.. Much had been said about social rights in that
country, but these were not the only rights they had to
consider. There were others equally important. The
people of this country would never believe that the Ro-
man Catholic religion was the true one. They had I
been taught by their parents to follow the Protestant 1
religion as the only proper one. If then this was the
case in England, let Hon. Members opposite show some
liberality of opinion towards the Irish Catholics. They
had been educated in their youth to look upon the Ro-
man Catholic religion as the only true one, and it had
been inculcated upon them as the most perfect one.
These were his sentiments, and he hoped and trusted
that the Right Hon. Baronet, and Hon. Gentlemen who
were with him, would get rid ere long of these preju-
dices, and that ultimately such measures would be
adopted with respect to Ireland as would give satisfac-
tion to the country at large.
Mr. GORE said that allusion had been made to the
Church of Scotland, but he did not think that the eases
of the Scottish and Irish churches were parallel cases.
Considering the anomalous position in which the Church
stood, it was their duty to remove the inequality which
deprived the Church of respect and power, and to render
it what it ought to be—the source of religion and happi-
ness to the people. If tha Government were to intro-
duce measures of such a tendency, he would give his