The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-29 00:00:00

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say one word more son that Point, -Its the question would
come On again to-morrow. An opportunity would then.
offer, when he hoped, in the presence of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, to defend the Magistracy from the at-
tacks made upon it. He couldnot refrain from expres-
sing his surprise at the asperity of those imputations which .
he was convinced alttle more reflection on the part of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would have prevented him
from uttering.-7(Hear.)—lf that Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman were present he might carry his observations some-
what further...4l-16r, hear.)—On that evening, however,
the .House would do him the favotir to-understand, tliat
he wished rather to confine himself to the few observations
he had to make on the 'state of the .police. As td the ei-
I PedieneY of •the Committee:he had no doubt. It had his
decided approbation. • The Ron. Gentleman. (Mr. Spring
Rice) who had spoken last,but one, hadstated, that per-
sons removed to those, favourable. climates to which the
convicts were transported, had written to their friends in
this-country in such a style as induced the opinion; that
that mode of punishment was not very severe. He (Sir
E. Knatchbull) was of an entirely different opinion. It
had happened to him, as well as the lion. Gentleman, to
receive communications on the same subject. But though it
was perfectly true, that those persons were in the enjoy-
! ment of a degree-of comfort which-they could not have en.
toyed in this country, he had felt some satisfaction inroad •
ing these communications, because he was glad to learn,
that the condition of any of his fellow-creatures, velsatever
.their crimes mightthave been, hail been ameliorated. But
lie had observed, that in all those declarations be had never
seen one which was not accompanied
.by expressions of the
painful regret the writers suffered from-the loss of the so-
ciety of their frienda, and their removal from . their-native
country.i—(Hear, hear.._)-isEntif transportation was not a.
sufficient punishment, he shott/d „he; glad to know what.,
Would the Hon. Gentlernan substitute ? He certainly•wat
not friendly to the.eyatera of, confining- Men-on board the"
hulks : it had been found to fail in every good purpose;.
nor did he believe it capable of essential improvement.
some of the, moral affects, were particularly to be:depre-
cattsl. It would become the House, he thought, to pause
before they gale up transportation as a punishment,
and adolit - that *of which ,he certainly ~could not ap-
prove. • He. would rather, not.. have . alluded to the
Ganie Laws. • That was a subject' on which he had
never ventured to. state his opinions ;- but as he was
obliged to speak upon it,' he would say that nobody could
be more hostile to the present system than himself. No,
subject was more deserving of-the attention of the House.
There was one other point to which he would referlefore
he resumed his seat. His Right Hon. Friend's Act rela-
tive to prosecutions, had made a considerable increase in
the public expenditure of the counties. At the same time,
it bad produced another effect which bis Right Hon. Friend,
no doubt, .had not anticipated, but which might probably
.be -prevented by the individual exertions of the Magistrates ;
it had produced a great increase in the number of commit-
ments. He thought his Right I-fon. Friend would do well
to re-consider that part of the Act which gave such unre-
strained facility to prosecutors in obtaining their expenees.
I-le hoped also that a fair construction would be put upon
the conduct of the Magistracy. It was one of the greatest
securities in this.country that it had an unpaid Magistracy,
so far removed above all suspicion of injustice, and so ad-
inirably calculated to carry justice home to the doors of
every individual in this country, without distinction of rank
or property.—(Cheers.) .

Dr. LUSHINGTON. should not advert to the extra-
neous topics which bad been introduced into this discus-
_sion, but would confine himself to the subjects embraced by
the motion now before the House. Be was desirous to
mention, that he had been looking into the reports Upon the
state of the prisons in the county of Middlesex, and that
since those reports were made, and during the interval
after the last session, he had visited some of those prisons,
and theircondition he could state well deserved the consi-
deration of the HoMe Secretary. The evils which existed
when the reports were made, were still- in existence, and
no remedy had been employed for their removal. He had,
amongst others, visited Coldhath-fields. It was stated iq
the report, and he knew it to he 'a fact, that prisoners
charged with- comparatively slight crimes, were confined in
that prison in the same apartment with individuals found
guilty of crimes of the most atrocious nature. What
would the House say, when he informed them, that the
space allotted to those individuals for sleeping in at night
did not exceed 16 inches in breadth.—(Hear. )' He found •
that to be .the fact on visiting this prison in October,
1826. ", He then saw 80 or 90 persons confined in one,
room, and the sliePing spaceallotted for each was about 16
inches, or even less, in breadth.—(Hear.) - The greater
portion of them, besides, Went to sleep in a perfectly naked
condition. When he
_(l2r. Lushington) inquired why such
a number of human beings. were thus pent up in one room
.togetlier, the superintendent who accompanied hint stated
that there was .no other place for them. _ He (Dr. Lash-
-ington) understood front him, that when he wept-to open
the door of this seem in the .morning, he was always
nearly overpowered by the smell, and that he was obliged
to leave the door,open-for several minutes before he could
enter, such-was the dreadful stench which issued from the
apartment. . He. (Dr.-Lushington) could vouch to the
House that the condition of this prison still remained um.
altered. No remedy had been applied but one, which, to
the honour of the Magistrates of Middlesex, was unique in
its way, the singularity; of which he (Dr. L.) could_ not
comprehend,. but which probably appeared to them as a
measure quite successful: they dismissed the visiting justices.
This was certainly rather an extraordinary mode of reme-
dying the evil. They had a specimen of the manner in
which reports respecting prisons were made, in a large
volume now on_ their table—the consolidated report upon I
prisons. He had compared a portion of that report with
the visiting dustices' report. _ The report merely stated in
four_ or five lines, that the prOvisions of the Act had been
complied with in the prison. , Here then, according to the
report,- all was well. Where was the use of Acts of Par-
liament for the regulation of prisons and prison discipline,
if, where the grossest violations of their esmetments were
committed, and these evils existed which they were inten-
ded to meet, it was thus reported in four or five lines that
the provisions of the Act have been complied with ? He
(Dr. Lushington) had-also visited Newgate. The space
afforded to the prisoners there was,very small, and the
classification highly objectionable. In the same little cell
would be seen confined one individual committed upon a
charge affecting his life, and another whose guilt, if /sub
was perhaps .of a very venial character. The House had
beard of the increase of crime, but should it excite their
surpriSe when they were told of the scenes of contamina-
tion whirls passed in Newgate? They had only to visit
that prison and there behold, as be had seen, three indivi-
duals confined in the same cell, one of whom was under
sentence of death, whose time was fixed, and who was pre-
paring for- his dreadful and. impending fate, while the
other two prisoners, who were certain of a commutation
of their
.sentence-.to that of transportation, were in high
spirits. Was this right?—(Hear.) The corporate rights
which belonged to the city of London should be
upheld, 'but they should not be allowed to exist for
a moment if they tended to. continue such a sys-
,tem as this,—(Hear, hear.) There was another point
which he wished 0 suggest for the consideration of, the
Hop. Pentlerpani Mr. Peel. Why should the Old Bailey
sessions be mawd to the pity of I,pndon and county of
Middlesex alone? Why should not the jurisdiction of that
court be extended . to the other side of -Blackfriars-bridge, -
and include persons guilty of offences in Surrey and Kent?
,It may be said that it is better for the city of London that
the eizppnces attendant upon the trial ;of . such: idTenders ,
should be thrpwp npon these counties respectively. God
forbid that such an objection should for a moment stand in
the way of the due-Administration of Justice. 40 the law
now stood,-an offender upon the other side of Blackfriars-
bridge mustochen apprebentled, be maintaiued in prison at
sh,e,ptpence of the county until the assizes. The winter
Assizes haul ce;tainly afforded great relief. But if the Old
Bailey Sessions were more quali;ed, and took imp, larger
-jurisdiction. than at present, many existing evils would be'
remedied. The consequence would be that ranch evence
would be saved, and the purposes of justice would be better
accomplished. • He did not see any great difficulty against
the arrangement, and he trusted the Right Hon, Gentleman
(Mr. Peel) would include it amongst his intended measures
of improvement.
Mr. C. 13ARCLAY alluded to a report made upon the
police in 1517. He said, that every member of the Com-
mittee on that ocaas4o was satisfied that until the paro-
chial police were abolished, no perfect system of police,
could be established. The increase of crime bad been
spoken of. He might mention that amongst the witnesses
examined before that Committee regarding the increase of
crime, watt Townsend the celebrated police officer, and he
stated,remembewriedth
trialethteirmaa srvinbget;rlarsmogr 20 d
at once " graced thee of expression, that he
gibbet," hut that now they had but one or two where they
.hid so many formerly. :The Hon. igenter, referring to
the late bank robberies, and other recent robberies to a
large amount, recommended that in all such cases
-a free
pardon should be granted, to any one of the aecomplicei
who should come forward and give, evidence against his
assoCiates,. By this means, he conceived tbat much pro-
perty, would be more. easily recovered, and the ends of jus-
tice materially promoted.
Mr. Alderman WOOD commenced by expressing his
disseut from the ,opinion epresoed by- the Hon. •Member
opposite,. Mr. Peel,.a9 to the ,effects of concurrent iariadie-
tions. Such a species of jurisdiction has been vested in the
magistrates of the city of London for tr-ninstee o.f."Ors, aid