The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-22 00:00:00

ment.—(The Right Hon. Gentleman then read at
length an extract from a speech delivered by Lord Cas-
tlereagh in 1817, in which he said that the spiritual and
temporal welfare of the Irish people would be best pro-
moted by giving a superior education to the only instruc-
tors to whom they would listen.) —When he (Sir J. Gra-
ham) was told that to ensure the affections of the
Irish people, it was necessary to restrict the
power of the priests, and to direct the religion of the
people, his answer was,—" It is," said the Right Hon.
Baronet, " impossible—l defy the House—l defy the Le-
gislature to make the attempt."—(Great cheering.) But
he would only say this, that no Minister of the Crown
ever produced a measure with a more sincere desire to
fulfil his duty to his Sovereign, and to conciliate the af-
fections of his estranged fellow-subjects.—(Cheers.)
The House had been told that this measure had been ex-
torted from her Majesty's Ministers by the reminis-
cence of past agitation and the threat of more.—
(Cheers.) He had been asked why did not the Govern-
ment put down Ribbonism ?—(Hear, hear.) He had
been asked why he did not put down monster meetings?
To that he had answered that he had used the law in its
utmost force, and beyond its legitimate force he would
not exert it ; and on the whole he must say, with full
confidence and perfect sincerity, that no Minister of the
Crown could have felt more satisfaction in recommending
a measure to the British House of Commons than he felt
when he asked the House to assent to the third reading

but they had their associations, with O'Connell at their
head, and the priest of the present day could act with a
courage of which the priest in 1796 would not dare to
conceive. They should recollect that the Irish people
were now aware of their rights and of their power. They
felt that they were now worthy to stand by the side of
Englishmen—they felt their own growing power and
wealth, and the results of their application to industry.
Let them, then, not hear any more of toleration.—
(Hear, hear.) The Catholics of Ireland felt that they
were entitled to be looked upon as an integral portion of
the empire, as those who were to be considered with a re-
ference to their numbers, and their wealth, and he antici-
pated therefore the passing of this vote as a measure of
necessary justice, but he would not assume an attitude of
defiance; he would not replicate on their opponents, but
would on the contrary meet them in a spirit of harmony,
and trust hereafter both Catholic and Protestant would
,go on together in a spirit of harmony, and mutually
assist in promoting the general benefit.—(Cheers.)
Mr. DARBY said, that with respect to the question
now before the House' he (Mr. Darby) had looked at
various times over the Acts of Parliament, and on re-
viewing the whole subject, he came to the conclusion
that the object of the Act of Parliament was not the
propagation of Roman Catholic principles, but a desire
to keep out revolutionary doctrines. The College of
Maynooth was founded with that view, and it was ex-
pected that those who professed the Roman Catholic
faith would have supported it. He had heard a Right
Hon. Member (Mr. Macaulay as we understood)
speak of secular education, but the present
endowment went beyond that. They were now about
to grant an endowment over which they could afterwards
have no control, and the House had received no assu-
rance that the Government would not, at a future period,
extend still further benefits to that institution. As far
as they could judge from the speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet, he thought that the College of Maynooth was
likely to look for still greater assistance. It had been
asked why was Belgium satisfied, and why were other
Roman Catholic countries satisfied? lie should answer,
simply because they were Roman Catholic countries,
with a Roman Catholic Established Church. Hon. Gen-
tlemen spoke of past revolutions. He (Mr. Darby)
would tell those Hon. Members that no revolution had
ever taken place in that country that was not
in its very origin and nature a religious revolution ; and
he believed that the objection this country entertained
to the measure before the House had its foundation in
that which had originated those very revolutions—he
meant religious scruples. He considered that that was
really the principle on which the people throughout the
country opposed this grant. If the Right Hon. Baronet
should tell him that they intended to go still further
after this feeling bad been exhibited, he should then
ask that Right Hon. Gentleman if he thought that the an-
tagonistic principle which characterised the different sects
of religion in that country—he would ask if he expected
that antagonistic principle would altogether cease, and the
Protestant people of this country become indifferent to
the further extension of Roman Catholic principles?
Hon. Gentlemen had spoken of Protestant ascendancy
in Ireland. If by that was meant a display of party ban-
ners or party processions, he, for one, would regret the
existence of such an ascendancy. But, if by Protestant
ascendancy was meant that principle which had seated
the present family on the throne, that principle which
formed the basis of their laws, and was intermixed with
their very Constitution, he said then that, as an admirer
of the British Constitution, he should support that Pro-
testant ascendancy. To that extent and to that only, he
repeated, he would maintain Protestant ascendancy, for
when that ascendancy ceased, he believed the Constitu-
tion of the country would cease also. When that Con-
stitution was destroyed, it would be time to speak of
equalizing all sects and denominations—(Hear)—
and they might then, perhaps, connect the Roman
Catholic Church with the State, which could only
be done, he firmly believed, at the expense of another
revolution. While he admitted the utmost toleration in
religious matters to all classes of his fellow-countrymen,
no matter what their religious opinions might be, he
still maintained that the State should not connect itself
with another Church which he, and the majority of her
Majesty's subjects, believed to be instrumental only in
the propagation of error. He could not help thinking,
seeing the feeling which had been exhibited in all parts
of the country with respect to this proposed grant to
Maynooth, that if the Government attempted to go
further, they would raise a feeling in the minds of the
Protestants of this country that could neither be allayed
nor compassed. If the Government did not go further
than the present measure proposed to do, the boon would
be worth nothing ; but he contended that this
was an endowment to propagate principles which
were antagonistic to the Protestant Constitution. With
respect to the voluntary principle, he would not advert
to it, and he was sorry to find that it had been mixed up
in this question at all, but be must say that what he had
heard the Hon. Member for Sheffield argue in favour of
that principle, he (Mr. Darby) wished that, for the sake
of his own consistency, he should not hear anything of
the kind from the Hon. Member again. The House
would recollect that the Hon. Member had very warmly
taken up the appropriation question which the Noble Lord
the Member for London had afterwards adopted, and when
it served his purpose he threw it away. The Hon. Gen-
tleman took it up again, but found it so troublesome a
toy, that he did not know how to deal with it. He
thought that was an attempt to endow a Church which
the Constitution of the country repudiated, and he said
this without any reference to the opinions of Hon. Mem-
bers of the Roman Catholic faith, although he consi-
dered that even their opinions were not at all times con-
sistent, for while they at one time declared the doctrines
of the Roman Catholic Church unchanged and un-
changeable, at an time their language was quite
opposed to that decr,,,p.. Holding these opinions, he
considered it his duo ix) vote against this measure—a
measure which proposed to endow the Church of Rome,
although at direct variance with the whole spirit of the
British Constitution.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that, however he might differ
from the Right Hon. Member who had spoken from the
benches behind him on other points, he yet agreed with
hale on this, that it was desirable that no unnecessary
delay should take place in the final settlement of this
question, and holding that opinion, he (Sir J. Graham)
should not have then risen to obtrude himself on the
attention of the House, did he not conceive it his duty
to do so, in consequence of certain expressions rela-
tive to the conduct of the Government as regarded
Ireland, but more especially :did he feel it his duty
to reply to certain observations which had emanated
from a Right lion. Gentleman who, in general, sup-
ported the Government. Before, therefore, he dealt
with the general question, he should take the liberty of
caning the attention of the House to those observations
which had personal reference to himself ; and, in the
first place, he could not avoid noticing the remarks which
had been offered by the Right lion. Gentleman the
Member for' the University of Dublin, and it was the
more painful for him now to do so, as that Right lion.
Member had, on former occasions, given his cordial sup-
port to the general measures of the Government. That
Right Hon. Gentleman had taken occasion to charge
him (Sir J. Graham), in the most distinct manner, with
neglecting the duties of the department of the Government
over which he presided. He had also charged him with
improperly assuming to himself a too great control over
the affairs of Ireland. He had also been similarly
taunted by the Hon. Member for Newcastle. He could
only say, and he was bound to state thus much to the
House, that in the discharge of what he thought was
his duty, he had exercised a control over the affairs of
that country, with the consent of Parliament, and with,
he thought, the approbation of the other members of her
Majesty's Government. There had been a very general
feeling exhibited of late, and he (Sir J.. Graham) was
persuaded that it was a growing one, that the adminis-
tration of Irish affairs should be assimilated as
much as possible to that which was observed
with regard to that portion of English and
Scotch affairs with which his department had
to do. And he would say further, that it was impos-
sible adequately to carry on in a proper manner the ad-
ministration of that country unless Parliament should
consent that such an arrangement should continue.
In the management of the affairs of that country he had
had the advantage of the assistance of Lord Eliot and
Earl De Grey ; he had been in constant communication
with them ; and if there was at any time any difference
of opinion between them it did not disturb for one
hour, nor for a minute, the general harmony of their in-
tercourse. lie had at that very time the pleasure of
being in constant communication with the present Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland (Lord Heytesbury), and while he
gave that Noble Lord credit for the sound principles and
the pure motives by which he was actuated—an opinion
he was sure that would be reciprocated from both sides
of the House —yet he should feel it his duty to
exercise the most independent judgment on what-
ever matter was connected with the administration
of affairs in that country. With respect to this mea-
sure particularly, there existed the most perfect una-
nimity between himself and that Noble Lord. With
respect to the charge that the Government had un-
equally distributed the patronage in Ireland, an Hon.
Member had referred to one instance, when he alleged
that some person—some nameless individual—had not
received that promotion in the courts of law, to which
he was justly entitled. lie (Sir James Graham) was
not aware of the particular case to which that reference
had been made, but of this he was persuaded, that not
one appointment connected with the law courts of Ire-
land: had been made unworthily, for no judge could
possibly act upon more strict principles of equity than
his Learned Friend, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
No man was more attached than himself to the Protes-
tant Church or more zealous in the maintenance of it,
but he felt bound to tell his Noble Friend that he
was a firm believer in the great principle laid down by
Burke, when he stated that whenever a religious ques-
tion arose, it ought to be decided on political, and not
on theological grounds. The arguments of the Hon.
Member for Birmingham last night were totally at va-
riance with common sense.—(llear, hear.) His Hon.
Friend opposite had referred to the disturbed state of
Ireland. He (lid not mean Yo deny that. lie felt as-
sured that crime against the person was rife in Ireland,
but the Roman Catholic people of Ireland would on the
subject' of religion bear comparison with any people
in the world. (Laud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Ipl:oltzdtabnetesnotvoelrdeitghnt he was
rgotstoevnertehiagtn he was
hadaawls
saeoais Protestant
gtthrhtue e
; but
t w Minister
as no tot t
oa
be forgotten
millions Minister o fof
a Catholic Pro-
testantsubjects.—(Great cheering.) Much had been said about
Exeter-hall and its still small voice sure that
the course they had pursued in that place ww:sBcsal
to do anything but good No one could doubt, mightiriitd
be attempted to be put aside, but they could
diminish the influence of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood over the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
In all the vicissitudoa of political life, the late Marquis
of Londonderry had steadfastly adhered to this paps,i_
pie, that it was the duty of the Government to provide
for the education of theextCrauthtolfircompriLesotrhdooLdo.ndioinedwerrouylds
read to the House an
rsopaegechh:anwdheS,nectbreattariylluosftrsioxe pEoerrsi)linewiosrerdpeeapsatrlet.:

people of this country. These were the arguments; this was
the instrumentality, this was the stratagem, this was the fraud
—a pious fraud, no doubt—(Loud cheers)—but such a fraud
as, he trusted, would not long abuse the minds of the people of
England—nor would it effect that which it was intended to
do. He did not pretend to approve of all that was
taught at Maynooth, neither did ho approve of all
that was taught by Dr. Sanderson, the Regius Professor
at Oxford. Neither did he approve of all that appeared in
Blackstone—he could not assent to the doctrine of male prohibi-
tion malurn in se. He would take the class-books of Maynooth
as a whole. If there was such a great objection to the princi-
ples taught at Maynootb, be should be happy to take the sense of
the House, and would readily vote for a Committee of the House
of Commons for inquiry to ascertain what there was that was
defective, and he trusted the Government would support it.
There had been a deal of casuistry employed to assail Maynooth,
but, unfortunately, casuistry did not always attain what it aimed
at. If there was evil in the class-books "it was
the evil to be found in Aristophanes, and the mischief contain-
ed in the first six satires of Juvenal. Casuistry was like sur-
gery—it disclosed all it was most necessary to conceal—the
concession was laying open the inward feelings by which
human nature was actuated—that anatomy of the heart by
which the whole of its internal corruption was laid bare. But
he did not dread investigation. What he looked at were the
moral results of education at Maynooth, and he was glad to

find-that the Right Hon. Baronei the Secretary for the Home
Department was disinclined to listen to the trash which had
issued from the lips of sophistry ; for even on that most dan-
gerous ground of the confessional he felt assured that the repu-
tation of Maynooth would come out honourably and unscathed.
Would an) man be prepared to say—could any man take upon
himself to prove—that the confessional had been perverted to
such iniquitous uses as had been suggested in that House?—
( Hear, hear.) Would it be presumed to be upheld as a fact,
that the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland were so utterly, so

of the Bill.
Mr. SHEIL, who was greeted with very loud cheering
said that he had heard with infinite pleasure the speech
which had just been pronounced, and every one upon his
(Mr. Sheil's) side of the House had heard it with
acknowledged pleasure. It was something refreshing
and pleasant in those times of angry politics to hear a
Conservative Minister quote Hume, and Grattan, and
Burke, and make up his hand-book from abstracts of
their speeches, teaching the British House of Com-
mons Irish policy from the 'doctrines of Irish patriots.
The Right Hon. Baronet adverted to the correspondence
of Edmund Burke. But he would call the attention ofS,
the House to the works of Edmund Burke, in which he
stated " that if that business was conducted as it ought
to be, and as it would be, they ought to expect more good
from it than from anything which had passed in their
age." And to what was it he alluded ? He saw many gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House who considered
Edmund Burke as the greatest statesman of his
time. Those gentlemen were, however, strongly opposed to
the endowment of Maynooth, and they conceived that they
ought to blame the Minister by whom the measure had been
introduced. How surprised, then, ought they to be when
they found that these words were used by Edmund Burke, in
reference to the College of Maynooth ? They were taken from
a letter from Edmund Burke to Dr. Hussey, who was after-
wards appointed a Roman Catholic Bishop. He was a man of
great talents and great accomplishments, and he was perfectly
aware of what the Hon. Member for Newcastle adverted to in
his reference to the criticisms of Cumberland, and he (Mr.
Sheil) was sorry be did not bring Cumberland down with
him. Dr. Hussey had been sent by the Duke of Portland to
Ireland at the instance of Edmund Burke ; and it appeared by
this correspondence that the measure had originally been in-
troduced for the conciliation of Ireland, when the fidelity of
the Roman Catholics of Ireland was a subject of very
erroneous surmise, and when a Roman Catholic
in that House was sufficiently adventurous to warn
them of their injustice, they were apt to mistake his first admo-
nition and to father that production upon the effect of his ire.
But when they came to look at that correspondence of the Ca-
tholic priest with a great Protestant statesman in all the secrecy
of confidential communication, they must feel that great atten-
tion should be paid to the fact. Edmund Burke, though a
Protestant, and educated in a Protestant University, was all his
life accustomed to the society of Roman Catholics, and was
perfectly acquainted with their feelings. He denounced the in-
fluence of the Penal Code upon the people of Ireland,
and had left his tracts, by which everything that had since
been written on the subject had been incalculably surpassed,
He was aware of the principles and feelings of the community.
and he had acted as a mediator between them and the British
Government. Two measures had been produced by the Bri-
tish Government for the concilation of Ireland—one a relaxation
of the penal code, and the other for the conciliation of the
Church Establishment of Maynooth. The first was unfortu-
nately a bad one, and did not come into use, to the great dismay
of Edmund Burke. But the Government adhered to the
second one. He spoke of the establishment of Maynooth as
most important. He did not look upon the amount of the grant
to Maynooth from the great height that he took his view ' • his
sight was not even directed to it, and he did not allude to it. The
Member for Newcastle adverted to the enterprise of Theobald
Wolfe Tome, but for a purpose to which it ought not to be ap-
plied. His memoirs were fraught with instruction. For several days
several French ships of the line, filled with troops with 100,000
stand of arms, were anchored in a harbour in the south of
Ireland, from which Theobald Wolfe Tone said that he could
throw a biscuit on shore ; and it was au extraordinary fact that,
in 18 years afterwards, the French Emperor put up his glass,
and turning his eyes to the horizon, thanked God in vain.
The rebellion of '9B succeeded, and it was put down, as every
rebellion would be put down. But by what course? How
altered here and hereafter may be the respect of any Govern-
ment which by the denial of justice, a fatal procrastination, or
by fatal indecision, would bring about such a terrible circum-
stance. They would ask him why he brought these things
forward merely for the purpose of showing what were the cir-
cumstances of Maynooth. The Catholic clergy were faithful
almost to a man. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Colquhoun)
might say that the history of the rebellion was open to him as
well as to him (Mr. Sheil), and he might raise up his eyes to
heaven; but surely it was unnecessary for him after having
spoken two hours to have recourse to pantomime.—( A laugh.)
Let them go from 1795 to 1822, and they would find that the
Roman Catholic clergy did not take any part in political pro-
ceedings. Could they deny that? When did they take part
in political proceedings? When the Catholic Association was
formed it arose then, within its influence. It was
then that the great sacerdotal Association commenced.
The Honourable Member for Newcastle, he understood,
had adverted to Dr. Doyle, at the same ti3m, admitting his
great talents. But it was not with him (DiTDoyle) that the
great ecclesiastical agitation in Ireland had commenced—it
was with the Hibernian Portuguese, the Augustinian Friars,
not with any clergyman educated in Ireland. Dr. Doyle pub-
lished a pamphlet of what they might call a very seditious cha-
racter..-of a character with respect to which they would not
call upon him (Mr. Sheil) to pronoun, any judgment. He
went so far as to say that if there was wrench invasion, and
the First Lord of the Treasury was then at the head of the
Home-office, he (Dr. Doyle) said that in such a case it should
net be the duty of the Roman Catholic clergy to join in repel-
ling the foe. That was an occasion on which Maynooth was to
be put to the test, and Maynooth published a declaration which
he (Mr. Sheil) had with him. Let them hear what he
was now about to quote from that publication. It
was far better than any extracts from Tallacosius,
Cappadocius, and Thomas Aquinas. It was a protest
from Maynooth--a protest of the establishment from which
Gentlemen on the other side stated that sedition in Ire-
land flowed, and it was sent to every district in that country.
These were the words of the priests of Maynooth, who were
alleged to have taught ultra oriontane doctrines. " The Roman
Catholic clergymen of St. Patrick's College of Maynooth, in
consequence of a recent publication in allusion to the domestic
education of the Catholic clergy, deem it a duty that they owe
to their religion solemnly to state that they wish to inculcate
allegiance to the Sovereign and respect to the authorities under
that Sovereign, and that they have been guided therein by the
tenets of the Catholic religion contained in the following pre-
cepts, &c." And then, continued the lion. Gentleman, are
quoted several passages from the Scriptures, and several ex-
tracts from Tertullian, referring to the penalties to which
Roman Catholics were liable by non-allegiance. He could
not help thinking that the perusal of that document ought to
convince any honest antagonist as to the doctrines taught at
Maynooth.
Mr. COLQUHOUN wished to. know whether Dr. Hig-
gins had signed that document?
Mr. SHEIL—AII the professors signed it. He had not got
their names, but the professors of those doctrines, which they
had impeached, had given their signatures. Was not that suf-
ficient to show them that it was an authoritative account, and
to carry with it great importance. He said that it would con-
vince any such honest man as the Member for Newcastle.
They must recollect what the fortunes of the Catholic
student were.— (Hear, hear,) He returned to the people
from whence he came—he became an ecclesiastic—he was not
free from contagion, he caught and propagated it ; hut he
would assert, that in Maynooth no doctrines against the Eng-
lish interests were taught, and he defied them to prove any-
thing of the kind. That measure was received with gratitudo
in 1795—it had been received with gratitude in 1e45. He as-
serted that the great body of the Catholic hierarchy gave their
unqualified approbation to this measure. The professors of
Maynooth had expressed their thanks to the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman ; and more than that, there had been no Protestant
demonstration in Ireland against the measure. He did not
regard the Right Honourable Gentleman the Recorder for
Dublin, or the Member for the University, as spokes-
men of the Protestants of Ireland. He asserted that
they were more solicitous for the peace of the country,
when the security of their country depended upon it.
The first thing the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department did, was to ascertain the real feeling of the
Irish people. He had not been inattentive to the feelings of
the people of this country, but he had exhibited a noble con-
stancy. He had not given way to the clamour which had been
raised. Yet it was not that the Right Hon. Baronet was in-
sensible to public opinion, for he hac: plainly shown this in
his conduct on the Factory Bill. But he was aware of the
difference between the unjust displeasure of English discon-
tent and the just displeasure of Irish discontent. He well knew
that English discontent would only, at the worst,
affect the position of the Government in power,
while the justice of Irish discontent would shake
the
ehe p pl
ee
the solidity of the State. It was the Dissenters of the coun-
try ry who were
chief
people were
w e opposersre n e averse f thetogirta,nt
for.
where
reitw werea s
evident
their county meetings—where were their great demonstrations
—where were the great expostulations of the great body of the
clergy ? He was aware that the Dissenters had their special
purposes to serve, and he could well understand their policy.
—(Laughter.) He was extremely sorry to speak of the Dis-
senters as he did, and to assert that he had grounds for the
opinions which he gave. The policy of Ireland was not to be
regulated by the feelings of any part of the English public.
When they should think less of Popery, and more of church-
rates--when they should right themselves, and not attempt to
wrong the Catholics—then would he be the first to assist
them in obtaining relief from their grievances ; and when
they sought for a Committee, he would be the first
to help them to a remedy.—(hear, hear.) He be_
lieved that the Dissenters did not grudge them the 26,000/.
a year, but they opposed it because they thought that a part of
the doctrines taught at Maynooth were in opposition to the prin-
ciples of the Christian religion. The Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham had entered into this part of the argument, and he
should notice it for a moment, because Christianity was alto-
gether founded on truth, and because truth was always one.
All the charges of controversy were sure to fall upon the intent
of particular passages or words. He was not going to enter
into a polemical discussion. He knew not how to express the
excessive meanness of the expedients which had been resorted
to in order to excite public feeling, and to induce a false im-
pression with respect to the doctrines taught in the Class-books
at Maynooth. The Hon. Member for Durham had handed to
him a tract, which had been issued by the Wesleyans. They
professed to give a testimony as to the head
class books of Maynooth. They cited Mendoza, Tallacotius,
Cappadocius, Thomas Aquimas, Eellarmine, Monatus, and seve-
ral others as the class-books at Maynooth. He'( Mr. Sheil) had
made the most diligent inquiries of those who were most com-
petent to give him information, and he found that only three of
the whole number were used as class books at Maynooth, and
that in these neither Bellarmine nor Mendoza were included.
The compiler of this publication had made extracts from the
treatise of Baillin upon the keeping of oaths. This compiler
had stated that this authority declared that the superior of a
religious order had aright to absolve any of the members of the
establishment from their oaths. These were strong words,
but what did Baillin
say, that " the superior of a
d
f ‘4s or er had the power to absolve an inferior
roul all these oath
the superior as
ct.? which came within the power of
they complain of 854.11 i . This w;s the qualification. Thus
Baillin..( Cheers.)
) A copy of the tract had
been sent to him by the 11 Member for Durham. The
tact had been extensively distributed to affect the minds of the

fearfully sunk in debauchery.-----( Hear, hear.) No, the clergy
of the people of Ireland stood far too high above ouch an impu-
tation—(Cheers)—the clergy of the people of Ireland, amidst
any phase of political and religious adversity, stood unble-
mished and unsuspected.—(Cheers.) In the performance of
their duties they sought not ease, pleasure, or convenience,
but endured pain, sickness, and death.—(Cheers ) Then,
were not the daughters, the wives, the mothers of Roman
Catholic Ireland the very essence, the very ideal of all the
domestic virtues—( Cheers)--and were not the Roman Ca-
tholic men of Ireland, with all their faults, honest, faithful,

temperate, and, with all their lamentable misfortunes and
defects, most marvelously abstinent.--(Loud cheers.) Great
were the crimes that had been committed in Ireland ; but

how few of them were there that had not their origin in

fearful misgovernment ?—(Hear, hear.) Appalling were the
murders that stained the annals of that country, but did
they bear anything like a proportion, either in number or in
character, to those committed in this vast metropolis?—
(Hear, hear.) And whatever might be the extent of those
crimes of agrarian ferocity that darkened the Irish people's
fame, those most inclined to render still darker
that deep stain, should at least admit, that but for the
Roman Catholic clergy it would have been increased.
tenfold.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, there was not a Secretary
for Ireland of late years, be his political feelings what they
may, who had not admitted that it was through the influence
of the Roman Catholic clergy that the people of that country
had been restrained from acts of violence that no other people
in the world, with the same provocation, could have been with-
held from.—( Hear, hear.) These were facts, indisputable
facts, upon which he relied—facts, which required no eloquence
to establish—facts, which no eloquence could controvert, and
which fully justified the Right Hon. Baronet in bringing for-
ward this measure.—(Cheers.) That measure he (Mr. Sheil)
was happy to observe the Right Hon. Baronet had determined
to carry out with a courageous perseverance—(Cheers)—
and he (Mr. Sheil) had no hesitation in saying that if the
Right Hon. Baronet persevered in this course as he had done
from the commencement, he might rest assured that he would
achieve the restoration of peace in Ireland, and establish a
system of peaceful Government in that country of a character
far more desirable than any he could ever hope to establish by
force.—( Cheers.) Every speck that now dimmed the dazzling
horizon of that country would be removed ; peace, happiness,
and order, would spread over the land, and the Right Hon.
Baronet would be entitled to the lasting gratitude of the Irish
people.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. PLUMPTRE, amidst loud cries of " Divide, divide,"
rose, and said he would detain the House but a short time.
He differed from the Right Hou. Gentleman who had just sat
down as to the booki read in Maynooth, and he called upon
the Government not to rely upon the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's statement.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He meant to say
that the Right Hon. Gentleman was mistaken, and he would,
upon the third reading of this Bill, which he supposed would
take place to-night—he would, upon the motion that the Bill
do pass, move for a Select Committee to inquire into this sub-
ject.—( Laughter.) He had repeatedly solicited the Govern-
ment to afford an opportunity for the thorough investigation of
this subject; but the Government had shrunk from the ordeal,
and refused the inquiry.—(Cries of " Divide.") He begged
to assure the House he would be very brief ; but he had a few
remarks to make on some observations that had fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department,
in reference to certain expressions that had been used at
Exeter-hall. He begged to assure the House that there was a
wide distinction between love for the Roman Catholics and ab-
horrence of their religion.—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") He
would maintain that Ireland had not been, and would not be
pacified by such measures as this, and, therefore, in his own
name, and in the name of his Protestant constituents, he did
most solemnly abjure this measure. —(Loud cries of " Divide.")
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY said he could assure the House
that if they would bear with him for a few moments he would
not press on their time by making a speech.—( Hear.) When
he entered the House that evening he had not the slightest in-
tention of saying a word, nor would he now have risen to do so
but for the
.repeated personal allusions made to him by the
Hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lync. In one of that Hon.
Member's observations he charged the people of Ireland with
the practice of bigotry to such an extent as to control and hamper
the free exercise of opinion by those who differed from them.
It had been said that the measures of the Government, so far
from conciliating even the members of the Maynooth establish-
ment,
had created a spirit of persecution throughout the entire
Roman Catholic population of Ireland, both clerical and lay ;
and that assertion kad been attempted to be proved, by a re-
ference to a trial where, it was urged, the system of prosely-
tism pursued by Catholics had been discovered and exposed.
It was for the purpose of defending the Irish people from that
aspersion, that he had then risen, and he would retort upon the
Hon. Member for Newcastle the charge of " proselytism " by
a similar quotation from evidence on a trial. In a college
established in a remote district of Kerry, at a place called
" Dingle," a clergyman called Gaher appeared to have been
practising this system of proselytism, but the evidence elicited
from one or two of the witnesses was worthy of attention. One
old man, who had served in the navy under Lord Rodney, de-
posed to being met by the clergyman of the parish, and solicited
to attend Church on the ground that he would get plenty of
wine there ?—( Laughter.) And he had sworn that that con-
sideration, coupled with the prospect of getting a belly-full,
had induced him to go to Church.—( Loud laughter.)
But there was another witness to whose evidence and name he
solicited the most earnest attention of the House. The name
was especially interesting—he thought apposite at the pre-
sent juncture. A Mrs. Peebles—( Roars of laughter)—a
Mrs. Peebles—(Renewed roars of laughter, from all parts of
the House)—on being questioned as to her sudden conversion
replied, " I think necessity compelled me, and I kept my
place."—(Continued laughter.) There was a system of pro-
selytism for the Member for Newcastle.—(Hear, hear.) But
one more quotation and he had done. An old man at Kerry
was similarly visited by a very zealous proselyting minister,
under whose especial guardianship he had been taken. He
had a horse, and that horse he had lent to the minister, on the
terms of 5/. 105. a year, payable in weekly instalments—
(Laughter)—but when he came for his money, he was told
that the hire of the horse was a nudum pactum.—( The
remainder of the sentence was lost is the bursts of laughter
which followed this observation.) There was a system of
proselytism for the Member of Newcastle to digest ! And with
its exposure he would close his remarks, which he had merely
made, to justify the sneer with which he had met the asper-
sions cast upon his co-religionists in Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Mr. FERR AND (who was received with loud cries of " Di-
vide")—promised not to delay the House five minutes while he
offered a few observations on the conduct of the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government. In 1839 he found
himself in a minority in that House, but believing that the ma-
jority of the country was in his favour, he bade them fight the
battle of the Constitution in the Registration Courts. They had
done so, and had raised whit they called the " Conser-
vatives" to power: they obeyed his injunctions and
had been betrayed. Yes, the Right Hon. Baronet had
betrayed them, and leading them on into the very
'heart -of tbe enemy's camp, had won for himself the ho-
nourable cognomen of " The Marotto of Conservatism." But
he would warn the Right Hon. Gentleman, that as the battle
of the Constitution had been fought, and fought suc-
eessfully when the Whigs were in power, so also
would it be fought when the Conservatives were in power.
—(Derisive cheers.) As sure as there was a dissolution of
Parliament, to which the Hon. Baronet had been defied, so sure
would the traitors meet with their deserts.—(Cheers.) The
Learned Member for Dungarvon had said there was no Pro-
testant feeling in Ireland against Maynooth, and talked of the
meeting of a few gentlemen in Galway as evincing the opinion
of the great Protestant body. He had mentioned the name
of a Mr. St. George, and be (Mr. Ferrand) would also quote
a gentleman of that name. In a letter which he had
received from that gentleman the soundest principles
of Protestant opposition to the grant were enunciated.
This was the authority of a Protestant clergyman in Ireland,
and he would hope that no more would be heard in that House
about the sanction of the Irish Protestant having been given to
the grant. Why even the Roman Catholics were not uni-
versally satisfied with it, coming, as it did, from the hands of
the Conservatives. What had Mr. O'Connell said on this
matter ? He had stated that the Conservatives had betrayed
the Irish people, and would deceive them still further. Let
the people only trust in him (Mr. O'Connell) and he would
give them the repeal of the union, and grants to Maynooth
would speedily foliose. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government had told the people of Ireland they should
have anything short of repeal ; and, as an earnest of his honest
intentions, he had offered the Maynooth sugar-plum.—
(Laughter.) But was the Right Hon. Gentleman more to
be trusted in than Mr. O'Connell? Mr. O'Connell had never
betrayed the Irish people, but the Right Honourable Baronet
had ; and not only had he betrayed them, but he had
also seduced many Honourable Members in that House
to give their support to the proposed measure, under
the belief that they would not compromise their seats if they
so voted. He could, however, tell them a different story.
During the Whitsuntide recess he had been down in the north,
and, from various inquiries he had made in that quarter, he felt
satisfied that the majority of the constituents of the various
Members who had voted in favour of the grant were determined
to visit with great severity upon them the great dereliction
from their duty of which they had been guilty.
Capt. LAYAItD rose amidst loud cries of " Divide," which
continued nearly the whole time the Hon. and Gallant Gentle-
man was speaking, and he was barely audible in the gallery.
He was understood to say, in reference to a speech which had
been made yesterday in the House by the Right Hon. the
Member for Dublin, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had been
so long in taking leave of his former love, and expressed so
much regret at parting, that he considered a lingering affection
still remained. He did not, however, express the same love
when he bid adieu to the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department, and he thought that heavy damages might be
recovered in any court of justice for the breach of promise.
The Hon. Member then quoted from the old nursery rhyme—
r thatyou
" It is good to be merry and wise,
It is good to be honest and true,
It is good to be quit of your old love
Beforesse
'
t
He would aGentleman had been
guilty of gross hypocrisy, and had cheated his old friends. The
Hon. and Gallant Member then went on to say he would wil-
lingly give his support to any liberal measure that was brought
forward in the House, no matter from. what party it might
originally emanate. He had heard that 30,000/. had been con-
sidered too much for the grant to Maynooth, but in his opinion
thirty times 30,000/. would not be more than sufficient to atone
to the Irish people for the wrongs that had for centuries been
done to them, especially when the gross ignorance under
which they laboured was taken into consideration.—( Hear. )
He could bear witness to the zeal and fidelity of the Irish
priesthood, and he felt sure that they would do all in their
power to preserve tranquillity and order. He hoped the Right
He saw by this mornings
in the course he had adopted.
s papers that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary at War had conferred the sum of 2001.
a year on the Catholic priests. ire hoped that such munificent

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 22, 1845.

and liberal conduct would be generally adopted, for thereby
much of the irritation and excitement which prevailed would
be allayed. He thanked the House for the patience and atten-
tion with which they had heard him.—( Great laughter, occa-
sioned by the fact that during the whole of the Hon. Member's
speech the House was a scene of uproar, so that scarcely a sen-
tence of it was audible in the gallery.) He would give his
hearty support to the third reading of the Bill.
Lord F. EGERTON rose, and the House became per-
fectly silent. He said—l shall not long trespass on the time
of the House, for I am physically and mentally disqualified
from doing so.— ( Hear, hear,) I have listened with pain to
the speeches of the Hon. Members for Kent and Knaresbo-
rough, and must protest against their being supposed to re-
present the opinions of the Protestants of England.—(Hear,
hear.) I will not take it upon myself to say that no Protest-
ant voice has been raised from Ireland in opposition to the
measure; but I will confidently say that the Protestant voice
of Ireland is far from being unanimous.—( Hear, hear.) I
speak as the representative of a considerable portion of the
community. 1 have been in communication with my con-
stituents, and though I acknowledge the propriety of
freedom of opinion, and though I know that a large
body of the people of this country are opposed
to the grant ( Hear) and that their opposition
to the measure is deeply rooted in some of the best principles
and feelings of our nature, I still maintain the wisdom of
this policy, and deny that there is anything like unanimity in
the opposition to it. I must, I say, protest against any such
assumption.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the speech de-
livered by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, there is no-
thing in it which I feel myself bound to notice.—(Loud and
long-continued cries of " Hear, hear.") I might, perhaps,
from old recollections of Ireland, state my belief, that in ad-

ducing the name of St. George, the Hon. Member could not
have meant the St. George that was mentioned by the Right

Hon. Gentleman opposite.
Mr. FERRAND—I said so.

Lord F. EGERTON—The Mr. St. George to whom the
Right Honourable Gentleman lead alluded, was a resident
Protestant proprietor ; and I think Hon. Gentlemen opposite
will concur with me in what I state.—( Hear.) The speech of
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, to which I allude, was
delivered on a former occasion, and as I was not then in the
House, I will now take the liberty of saying a few words upon
it. The Hon. Gentleman quoted, and I think quoted directly,
a speech of mine at an election, which reflected with unjusti-
fiable asperity on the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Nottingham. Sir, I wish to explain to the House that those
allusions made by me to the conduct of that Right Hon. Baro-
net were totally unjustifiable in point of fact, and that I regret
having cast those aspersions upon his name.—( Loud cheers.)
With respect to the question before the House, I have very few
opinions to offer on it. If anything has occurred in the course
of the debate at all likely to modify or change the feelings with
which I first entered into the discussion, it would not be the

able speech of the Hon. Member for Newcastle-under
Lyne, which has gone further to confirm and strengthen
me in my original opinion. Much of that speech contained a
very able picture of the state of Ireland. I admit this; but
what is the first question which must naturally suggest itself?
Is it not this—What are you about to do? What remedy are
you about to propose, for a state of things which has but one
parallel in the civilised world, and that parallel is to lee found
in the island of Corsica, which is a very close one ? What
remedy does he propose ? What does he say we ought to do ?
He says, to administer and uphold the law.—( Hear, hear.)
Well, Sir, I believe in my conscience that there never was any
one Administration, since the union, in which the Secretaries
for Ireland had not ardently and anxiously desired to do so.
make no distinction of parties. Men may be mistaken in their
policy and in their opinions, but I say again, I believe there
was not one who did not wish honestly and fairly to adminis-
ter the law. There is, therefore, no further use in
discussing such a remedy—it is perfectly futile and unnecessary.
I said before, and I now reiterate my perfect conviction, that
if you treat Ireland in the manner proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman—if you are to proceed with the administration of
affairs there on the principle which the party that the Hon.
Member advocates profess—if you are to legislate for it on the
assumption that the Irish people are idolatrous—ft is
better and safer for you to abandon dominion
over that country altogether.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition.) I do not talk of the repeal of the Union
—I think it is a mischievous project, but I think it is better to
go further—to reparation itself.—(Renewed cries of " Hear,
hear.) If you support this principle you must carri it out to
the proper and legitimate extent.—( Hear, hear.) this prin-
ciple will involve the administration of the law in Canada,
Malta, the Mauritius, India, and its dependencies—( Heat
hear)—in those parts placed beyond the sphere of all but a
staternan's vision,
" Where half the convex globe obtrudes between."
—( Hear.) Can you believe it possible that that national
anthem, which, to use the expression of a figura-
tive American, " girdles the earth with its music,"—will
have the continuity of its chain broken ? Can you think that
that flag should be hauled down which had been planted on the
heights of Quebec by Wolfe—or that country which had been
won by Clive and extended by Wellesley, should be restored
to the dominion of barbarous tyrants—that England, which had
risen like a giant after the loss of half a hemisphere in America,
would have yielded to the blow, though she might have felt it.
Can you believe that England would adopt a line of policy so
fatal ?—( Hear, hear.) Political economists may write as they
have written, that England would be all the better for the loss
of these dependencies (an opinion in which I do not agree), but
I never saw a page written by any political economist, how-
ever paradoxical, in which it was not admitted, that if Ireland
was stricken from the empire, the last page of the history of
England's glory was not turned over for ever.—( Cheers. )
Sir, do I say that the measure before the House is a direct
means of preventing such consequences as these? Do I say
that a donation of 30,0001. or three times 30,0001. is a sure re-
medy which you are to give as a preventive to consequences
such as these ? Far from it. But Ido say, that under the cir-
cumstances in which this question now comes before the House,
after the principles which have been laid down in its proposi-
tion, and after the expectations which have been raised, I am
deeply anxious respecting this measure, not because I am under
deep apprehension, but I am under deeper anxiety than I ever
felt, as there are some features in this debate which occasionally
remind me of the old times. They remind me so strongly that
I could almost see the graceful figure of Mr. Canning rising
here to reply, while a sonorous peroration of Sir Charles
Wetherell was still ringing in the House. Never did I feel
greater anxiety for the successful result of a measure before.
We are called upon to resist this measure on the ground of reli-
gion. I have avoided treating the subject in a religious point of
view, and I have done so, because I for one do not like
" To rush in where angels fear to tread."
Whatever may be the faith of the Roman Catholics respecting
auricular confession, I have a great objection to making a
confessional of your chair, Sir.—( Laughter.) But I take on
myself to say that no Scotch Calvinist on the hill more truly
believed his book than I do the book of truth on which I found
my belief. lam certainly not inclined to allow the dictation
of the Pope or a council of common authorities. Ido not be-
lieve in the infallibility of any human authority, and those who
do I respectfully treat as persons in error. But I could net de-
nounce that as error without assuming to myself something si-
milar to infallibility.—( Loud cheers.) 1 read the sacred
volume by a glimmering and perhaps a fallible light,
but still it is a light of my own, for young men
do not see visions nor old men do not dream dreams—no miracles
are performed at the doors of Exeter-hall. The cloud does
not go before me by day, and a bright flame does not irradiate
by night my march in the wilderness. I believe, indeed, that
there is a light for my guidance, but I do not feel sufficient
confidence to enable me to say hat those who are pursuing
other parallel, or, possibly, widely-diverging paths, are under
a sad delusion, and are diverging to their rum.—(Loud and
continued cheering.) Our goal is a common one. I hope,
and pray, and believe, that many of us may reach it in com-
mon.—( The Noble Lord sat down amidst loud and continued
cheering.)
Mr. M`LEAN next rose to address the House, but
he was heard with great impatience, inasmuch as
the majority of his observations did not reach the
gallery in anything approaching to a connected form. He
said, was it not a fact that they believed on that side and on the
other also that this was a merely initiatory measure, and that
it would be succeeded by other and greater measures of a
similar character. He would put it to them not as illustrating
an argument, but as exhibiting a fact, that at a late meeting
of the heads of the Roman Catholic persuasion in this country,
the Noble Lord who proposed a vote of thanks to the Right
lion. Baronet at the head of the Government said that the
person must be more than purblind who believed that a paltry
grant of 30,0001. was intended as a final and isolated measure,
and if the House would allow him to refer to one sentence
---( Loud cries of " No, no," and " Divide, Divide,"
during which the Honourable Member in vain attempted
to utter a single word)—to refer, he said, to one sentence-
-(" No, no," and great confusion)—of Lord Beaunsont's, to
show what the universal feeling of the Catholics was on this
occasion.—( Renewed confusion, and cries of " Oh, oh.")
Lord Beaumont, in proposing a resolution, said that the
person must know little of the human heart, and must have
studied to little purpose the political history of his country, who
could imagine that a mere grant of 30,0001. would satisfy a
great majority of the sister country. He knew that he had
but little claim on their indulgence at that late hour.—( Cries
of " Hear, hear," and laughter)—but the conscientious re-
pugnance which he felt to this measure had induced him to
oppose the Right Hon. Baronet; and that repugnance also com-
pelled him to state to the House—( Cries of "Divide, divide,"
" oh, oh," " order, order," and immense confusion, during
which the Hon. Member, having in vain attempted to make
himself heard, sat down. )
Sir R. PEEL rose to address the House. He could not
but admit the reasonableness of the demand which had been
made for the immediate discussion on the present subject.
He could not, however, allow the present discussion to pass
without some observations from him. He must allude to the
observations that had been made by the Hon. Member for
Newcastle. It had been said the Government that ex-
isted at the present moment had done much against the Col-
lege of Maynooth. Now he had read many authors on the
subject, and their opinions generally were in its favour—
(Loud cheers.) There can be no doubt that the Catholics
had done all they could to put an end to any outbreak between
them and the Protestants. He could not but admire the course
that had been pursued by Lord Castlereagh on this subject.
He believed the Hon. Member also said, that this vote to
Maynooth should not be made at the same time that the su-
perintendence of that college should be as exclusive as it was
at present, while he admitted that the Government had done
much to preserve the integrity of the Protestant Church in
this country. But now let him ( Sir Robert Peel) remind
the Hon. Member of what the Government had done in
respect to the state of Ireland in the year 1843. In that year
the Government had 30,000 soldiers in Ireland, and 10,000
police, to preserve the peace, while they had upon the coast a
strong naval force for the same purpose.—( Hear, hear)
In fact, they had done all that the law empowered them
to do for the maintenance of peace in that country.—( Hear. )
'fhe Hon. Member admitted that those means had had the
effect of asserting the majesty of the law ; and that another
of the consequences of them was, that the repeal rent had been
much reduced. That, then, was the moment when the
Government thought proper to propose measures for altering
the constitution of the country, and submitting to this House
remedial measures for the great complaints of the people of
Ireland, and had the Hon. Member said that such was not the
proper time for doing so. The Government had proved
their determination to resist every attempt at force or
intimidation, but they were also determined to consider whe-
ther there were not other measures which were demanded for
the pacification of Ireland. But the Hon. Member said
" Give protection to property—denounce the priests—enforce
the law." Now, let him ( Sir R. Peel) ask what was the
meaning of " enforce the law " in this country ? The only
remedy left in any country where the law was not suspended
was trial by jury ; but trial by jury was not available when the
great mass of the people were in such a position as the people
of Ireland were in at that time. Under these circumstances,
then, her Majesty's Government addressed themselves to what
they conceived to be remedial measures, and they had adopted
this course with all the foresight of the consequences which
would be likely to arise.—( Hear, hear.) Ile could assure the
Hon. Member that he deeply regretted the cession from him of
his political friends, who, honestly and conscientiously disap-
proving of the course he had adopted, had withdrawn their
confidence from him ; but, notwithstanding that, he must ever
claim for a Government charged with responsible :duties, that
right to examine their own judgment, without which, no Go-
vernment could discharge those duties with credit to themselves
or advantage to the country.—( Hear, hear.) He would also
remind Hon. Members that there was a most material misap,
prehension on their minds as to the position of a Minister.—He
was as proud as any man could be of his present position,
but he denied that he was under any personal obligation by
reason of that position—( Hear, hear)—and he would much ra-