The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-09 00:00:00

it exists, by the perpetual intervention of tha hand of Go-
vernment, exercising the most summary powers."
In the view of the question, then so ably displayed, he
knew that Mr, Pitt cordially concurred. But it was
contended, that, although in those tranquil times the Go-
vernment might have acceded to the claims of the Catho-
lics, new principles and doctrines had since been broached
of a character which gave a new aspect to the question, and
forced upon the Government a new line of policy. He
(Mr. Fitzgerald) was not disposed to depreciate the state
of the public mind in Ireland. On the contrary, he looked
at it with considerable apprehension. But he was quite
sure that, whatever change had taken place, had been
wrought by the postponement of hopes they had been
led to conceive. (Hear, hear, hear.) And lie was also
sure that the state of the public mind in Ireland was
not one .which could possibly remain still. (Hear,
hear.) Ile knew well the state of Ireland, and if he
were as great an• enemy to the Catholic claims as he
was their friend—if he were as much opposed to them

as the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary
Peel), he should not wish to force separation between the
Roman Catholics of Ireland and the Pope. That separation

the Irish would effect of themselves if left alone. Five years 1
ago he had said as much to Lord Liverpool. Upon that oc-
casion he foretold to his Lordship that that would happen
which was actually now in progress. He had told him
that the Catholic Clergy, who were then in a conciliatory
mood, would, every day the measure of Emancipation was
withheld, become less disposed to conciliation, and that the
question which they had at heart would become more of a
national question. (Hear.) And how was it now ? The
priesthood were a political, organized body. There was no
Occasion to conceal the fact, for it was publicly avowed---it
could not he concealed, it was boasted by the Catholic leaders
that the entire population of Ireland was organised"—
that " they might now be moved by a simultaneous
action for- one specific purpose."—(Loud cheers l'rom
both sides of the House.) He (Mr. Fitzgerald) sincerely
believed it •te be the case, that the Catholic leaders had
the power to wield the whole Catholic population of that
country as one man.—(Continued cheers.)--.-But, let the
House mark the lesson:to be drawn from the facts. Two
years ago this was- net the case. _(Loud cheers.)--Four
years ago he had prophecied to Lord Liverpool that it
would come to pass in ten years ; but it had been accom-
plished in less time. Ten years ago, however, it would
have been impossible to accomplish such a thing ; and 20
years ago the Catholic leaders had no voice at all for such
a purpose—they had no power then—how had they
ac-
quired it to so fearful an extent ? Government had been •
warned of this consequence all along; and the present aw-
ful state of things in Ireland must be considered as the act
and measure of those who had continued pertinaciously to
oppose the claims of the Catholics.—(Leud cheers.)—
Upon their heads .be the awful and painful responsibility of
answering to Ireland, to the people of England, and to the
British Parliament, for this state of things at present, and
for the consequences of it.—(Cheers.) He did not mean to
say that the Catholic population of Ireland were united for
any had purpose, That they- were discontented and dis-
affected tient protracted hope--.-that they were united as
one man in their discontent,• could not be denied. And,
as the Solicitor-General had that night told them, that,
so long as the Catholic doctrines remained un-
changed, Catholics could not be admitted to an equal
participation in the Constitution,—according to him
they must remain excluded for ever.—(Hear, bear,
hear.)—He begged the House to consider what was, in
the mean time, the condition of Country Gentlemen in
Ireland, in the midst of myriads of an 'organized

fected population, with power at once to destroy all the
Protestant 'property in the country. (Hear, !tear.) He
did not mean to say that he was afraid of any undue result;
but these elements of danger, panic, and alarm, existed,
and might be moulded almost to any purpose. (Hear,
hear, hear.) He should think he deserted his duty if he
shrunk from and• disclosure of circumstances affecting this
question in that House. (Hear.) He might refer to it
as a fact well known, and which could not •be concealed,
that there was in Europe at present what was called strong
ApoStolical feeling, the meaning of which, he believed, was
an ultra-Catholic feeling ; and there could he as little doubt
that the active tendency of that feeling, as regarded Ire-
land, was, to urge that country into disaffection to the
English Government. In like manner, in the United
States of America, he could assure the House that there
were in that country thousands of Irish Catholics who
had quitted their country in a most exasperated state of
hear)-;--and from their great activity, zeal,
and intelligence, possessed great influence among the Re-
publicans of North America. Now, what he wished to
know was,'whether the House proposed to leave the ques-
tion unsettled, and Ireland exposed to the workings of
these. tWri hostile powers. It was a correct view of the
case to state, that the population of Ireland was organised
in disaffection to this country, and he was convinced that

. .
unless some enre for that feeling were applied, Ireland
could not remain with security in connection with this
country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. G. MOORE addressed the House in oppesition to
the motion. We understood the Hon. Gentleman to con-
tend that the Treaty of Limerick would not bear the con-
struction placed on it by the advocates of concession to the
Catholics. It was remarkable that Acts were passed by
William the Third, shortly after the date of that Treaty, in
direct violation of the interpretation now put upon it, and
yet no clamour was raised there, when the Treaty and the
Claims it was said to guarantee must have been fresh in the
minds of all. He could not resist making one observation
on the argument of the Hon. Member who had just sat
down, with respect to the Union. He (Mr. Moore) did
not deny that it was held out at the time, in argument,
that the Union might promote the views of the Catholics;
but then it was to be distinctly observed, that it was not
the object itself that was to be accomplished by the Union,
but the discussion merely was to be promoted.—(Mur-
murs from the Opposition benches.) He maintained that
Mr. Pitt specifically argued that the advantage of a Legis-
lative Union would be, that the Protestants, as well as
the Catholics, would have their views and interest; more
fully promoted by discussion. On the 13th May, ISOS,
Mr. Pitt, in reply to Mr. Fox, thus delivered himself :
" I also felt that in no possible case, previous to the
Union, could the privileges now demanded be given, con-
sistently with a due regard to the Protestant interest in
Ireland, to the internal tranquillity of that kingdom, the
frame and structure of our Constitution, or the probability
of the permanent connection of Ireland with this country.
It is true, Sir, that after the Union I saw the subject in a
different light ; but whilst that event was in contempla-
tion I did state, as the Hon. Ge rifleman says, that the
measure would make a material differenoe in my opinion.
But he has also stated, what is very true, that I did not
make a distinct pledge ; on the contrary, I believe the
line of argument I took was, that if it should be thought
right to give what the Catholics required, it might be
given after the Union nit!' more safety to the empire ; or,
if it were thought proper to refuse giving it, that it might
then be refused without producing those disastrous conse-
quences which might have been apprehended before the
Union."—(Loud cheers.)
'Ha hoped he had now redeemed the pledge he had given
to support his assertion, by the authority of Mr. Pitt.—
(Ilear, hear.) It was well known that the Royal mind
was calmed with reference to the measure of the Union, by
the belief that it would put an end to the claims of the
Catholics. The Hon. Member here read from the corre-
spondence of his late Majesty upon this subject, lately pub-
lished, a passage which contained, amongst other expres-
sions, the assurance that the King had assented to the mea-
sure of the Union, because he believed " that it would
• shut the door against any further atempts on the part of
the Catholics."—(Hear, hear.) Nothing, he apprehended,
could be more conclusive as to the manner in which the
Union was understood at the time of its passing, than this.
The Hon. Baronet had passed a glancing eulogium upon
the great deeds and renown of our Catholic ancestors.
But be (Mr. Moore) begged permission to tell him that no
deeds of theirs acquired for them so much glory as their
noble struggle against ;the encroaehinents of the Papal
power.--(Loud These began as early as the reign
of Henry the cheers,)ourtlad the fact he thought tended to
establish the proposition that the characteristic of the Bri-
tish Constitution
dependenttitutiouw'as,ohnat
trlrom Rpout,,erar
,anspipriotunatliffo,
atemporal,
j t d a
to the slightest interference with the British Go-
vernment.—(Hear.) r
having
That proposition was establkhed
with protestant Ascendancy at the Revolution of 1:i88.
So long as that provision existed, which prohibited the
King from being a Papist, or from marrying a Papist, the
strongest argument must exist against admitting the Ca-
tholic to power. There was no question on which the
public of England laboured under such a delusion as they
did with respect to the Claims of the Roman Catholics.
There could not be a greater delusion than to suppose that
the disturbances of Ireland were at all connected with
what was called Catholic Emancipation. It was grossly
unjust towards them to assert that the Catholics, as a
body, were mixed up with the sanguinary associations
which devastated that unhappy country. Neither let it be
said, that as on the one hand the Catholics tale no share as
a body in the disturbances of the country, that on the other
there existed in Ireland way class whose efforts were sufficient
to overcome, or even for any time to resist the proceedings
of those associations. Once for all, then, he hoped there
would be an end to all arguments founded on the assump-
tion, that the refusal or retardation of the present demand
would have any thing to do with the tranquillity of the
country. Neither was it to be endured that any Hon, Mem-