The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-03 00:00:00

Sir Charles Lemon, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Strutt, The
O'Conor Don, and Mr. Ord, the Member for Newcastle.
He should say, that he had carefully excluded from his
list every gentleman connected with offiee—(Hear,
hear)—and he had also excluded the Hon. Gentleman
who brought forward the motion, not from any want of
respset, but because he thought it better that the accuser
and the accused should have nothing to do with the
Committee. To those he surrendered his case, and his
personal honour without fear.—(Hear, hear.) They could
report what the former usages had- been, what was
the state of the law, as it existed from the earliest
time, sanctioned by men long since gone to their great
account—men of spotless private honour, who dearly
loved the liberties of England, for the use of which an
attempt was made to crush him. He entrusted the
matter to the Committee, confident that they would
discharge their duty, and though there were some evils
in the late discussion, and the agitation of the public
mind on the subject, yet he hoped, he helieved, and he
prayed that good might ensue, and with this feeling,
thanking the House for the patience with which they
had heard him, he would place- this amendment in the
Speaker's hands.—(Loud cheers.)
The amendment having been put,
Mr. SHELL said it seemed to him a most extraordi-
nary circumstance, that a Committee to inquire into the
state of the law and the manner into which it had been
carried into effect, should not contain a single lawyer.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman expressed a
wish that the investigation should be of the most search-
ing character.—(Hear, hear.) He presumed, therefore,
that he had no objection to have the different function-
aries of the Post-office examined respecting its various
details.—(" Hear, hear," from Ministers.) Then it fol-
lowed that they must have some persons on the Commit-
tee who were accustomed to putting questions.—
(Laughter.) If they wished to have a thorough investi-
gation, they must have, if the Committee would allow
him to use such a phrase, a forensic inquisitor.—(No, no.)
Observe, they wished to have the course pursued
by their predecessors, as well as their own,
investigated.—(Hear, hear.) It was a cause, and
plus cause.—(Hear, hear.) The predecessors of the
Government were as much interested in the issue at
stake as they themselves were. They said that they
were not more criminal than those who had gone before
them. Was it not desirable, then, that the Committee
should contain two individuals, one on one side aid the
other on the other side, both of whom were accustomed
to the examination of witnesses ?—(No, no.) He cer-
tainly could not help thinking that when they were re-
ferring to the consideration of a Committee the con-
struction of the law, and the manner in which this law
had been acted upon. that Committee should consist of
persons who would be able thoroughly to investigate the
whole subject.—(Hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said, as the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had alluded to the vote which
he (Sir George Grey) had given on a former
occasion, he wished to disclaim altogether, if such dis-
claimer were necessary, the attempt which would be
made to throw upon him all the responsibility connected
with this power. It was hardly necessary that he should
refer to the arguments which he had used in support of
the motion of his Hon. Friend. He had, however,
stated distinctly that the single ground on which he sup-
ported that motion was, that the Government had been
utterly silent, not only as to the details of a particular
case, but as to the broad principle upon which they ex-
ercised the power which was admitted, on all hands, to
be vested in them by law.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that
the real charge which would be brought against the
Government was, that a power given tor one purpose
had been exercised for another—(Hear, hear)—that the
power which had been given for the purpose of
securing the throne of this country from con-
spiracy—he did not say whether the charge
was well founded or not, but in the absence of all asser-
tion to the contrary, he was bound to assume its cor-
rectness—had been exercised by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, not for that constitutional object, but for purposes
entirely unconnected with these dominions, and exclu-
sively connected with a foreign country. That, he
repeated, was the single ground upon which he supported
the motion ; and he begged to remind the Hon. Gentle-
man that he stated, that if he disavowed such an exer-
cise of power, he, for one, should be satisfied.—(Hear,
hear.) Having said so much as to what passed on a,
former occasion, ho begged to say that he entirely ap-
proved of the course now taken by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the terms of the
motion were not very material. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had distinctly stated that he wished for a full and
comprehensive inquiry.( Hear," from Sir J. Graham.)
As they had the substance, therefore, he did not think
the precise form was material. As to the constitution
of the Committee, he thought it was desirable to avoid
expressing any final opinion upon that subject on that
occasion.—(Hear, hear.) He presumed that, in con-
formity with the ordinary practice, the names
would be laid on the table to-morrow. The Right
Honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham) shook his
head, but as the House met at twelve o'clock,
to-morrow, if his suegesti Na were complied with, it
would only cause a delay of about 12 hours • and was it
desirable to violate the ordinary rule of the House for
the purpose of gaining twelve hours? He saw no ob.
jection to the names proposed, except that of his Right
Hon. Friend in reference to the absence of gentle-
men connected with the law. He begged to correct
himself. He understood that there was one gentleman
who possessed that advantage. If that were the case,
he thought there should be one from each side of the
House. He could not help expressing his satisfaction
at the change. of tone on the part of the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, after the avowed ignorance of his
colleagues. He was sure that not one of his predeces-
sors would shrink from the most full and complete in-
quiry as to the manner in which they had exercised the
power which was vested in them. After the observe,
don which had been made in that House, and by men
of the highest authority on the subject, it was of the ut-
most importance that the law should be placed on
grounds which would render it clear and unambiguous.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he understood that the object
of appointing the Committee was to create a feeling of
security in the public mind, that feeling of security
which had been so much shaken by what had taken
place within the last few days. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wished to have a thorough scrutiny into all the
circumstances connected with the administration of the
Post-office, for. the purpose of creating a feeling of se-
curity out of doors. They. were about to institute a
Committee—first of all to inquire into the actual state
of the law on that subject, he thought it would be
found that there were great doubts in the minds of the
most learned lawyers. The next question was, how
that law had been administered—whether it had been
departed from or acted upon, by whom departed from
and by whom acted upon. He would ask the House,
if they thought the most likely means of creating se-
curity out of doors was to make this Committee secret ?
—(Hear, hear.) He had no objection to the inquiry
being carried on with closed doors, but he wished to
insure was the full and complete publication of the evi-
dence.—(Hear, hear.) He had stated that the state of
the law was doubtful. After what had passed else-
where, could they for a moment hesitate to admit that
such was the case? They found Learned Law Lords on
one side opposed by equally learned authorities on the
other, and taking directly opposite views of the sub-
ject. If, therefore, they instituted an inquiry into the
actual state of the law, the Committee should be com-
posed of very sagacious persons, and persons accus-
tomed to common law. Whilst referring to the state of
the law, he begged to state one or two facts bearing on
this subject. By an Act of Parliament of the 9th of
Queen Anne, certain powers were given to the Post-
office, and a proviso was introduced into that Act
by which persons opening letters under the warrant
of the Secretary of State should be free from the penal-
ties imposed. The 9th of Anne had been repealed, and
tin Act was passed in 1837, by which certain powers were
also given, and a proviso was inserted in that Act. Now,
he asserted, on the very highest authority that the proviso
in the Act of Parliament simply protected the persons
who opened the letters, it gave no authority to any
Secretary of State to issue any warrant, and if the
Secretary of State had any authority at all, it was a power
which he possessed in the common law.—(Hear, hear.)
He was only stating this for the purpose of showing the
sort of inquiry upon which this Committee was about to
enter. The Hon. and Learned Member then referred to
the Act of Parliament in support of the statement which
he had just made. He begged now to direct the attention
of the House to the language of Lord Camden, in the case
of the seizure of Mr. Wilkes' papers. "Papers," said
Lord Camden, " were the owners goods and chattels,
they were his dearest property, and were so far from
enduring a seizure, that they would hardly bear an in-
spection ; and though the eye conld not, by the law of
England, be guilty of a trespass, yet the carrying
goods away which were of a secret nature, was an act
of trespass." There was no law which gave any man
the power to do that ; and it was too much for them,
without such authority, to pronounce a practice legal
which would be subversive of all the comforts of
society. Now he (Mr. Roebuck) wanted to have per-
sons appointed from that House, who would be able
to report as to the actual state of the law, as well as the
manner in which it had been carried out. In an ordi-
nary case they had a judge, whose duty it was to tell
thejury what was the state of the law ; and he did
not think that the Committee now nominated
would be able to decide that question. lie fully sym-
pathised with the Right Hon. Gentleman in what he had
said as to the advantage which had been taken of this
incident to call down public indignation upon a public
officer who had done nothing more than follow in the
footsteps of his predecessors.—(Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial benches.) That feeling had been created out
of doors by all those vile arts which attached to the daily
press.—(Hear, hear.) A viler instrument of calumny
could not be used, and all its vileness had been used on
the present occasion, and poured on the head of the Right
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) He would not do honour to one more than
another of those detestable channels.—(Laughter.) He
was delighted at this inquiry. He was convinced that
the moment this power was understood the people of this
country would consign it to destruction.—(Cheers.)
It was not necessary for the safety and peace of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was only used to
gratify a base passion.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
It was used for paltry, disingenuous, and detestable pur-
poses—(Hear, hear)—and it could not be of any use to
a Government which rested on the affections of the
people. Those affections could not be gained but by a
straightforward and honest course. They could not be
gained unless the people were suffered to perform all
those acts which society considered harmless and useful.
He held in his hand a paper which he desired to bring
I before the House. The Hon. Member for Finsbury said
that M. Guizot had thought fit to say, that he was not
• aware that any breach of the privacy of letters in France
now took place. He did not attach much credit to that
statement as a piece of information. The Hon. and
Learned Member then read a letter from M. Carnot, the
Minister of the Interior, to M. le Prefet du Department
• des Postes, stating that he had been informed that
in certain parts of the empire the privacy of letters