The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-20 00:00:00

IRELAND.

THE STATE TRIALS.

FOURTH DAY-BY EXPRESS.

(FROM OUR OWN REPORTERS.)
DUBLIN, THURSDAY, JAN. 18.
COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH.
THE QUEEN V. DANIEL O'CONNELL AND OTHERS.
The vicinity of the Four Courts presented a busy
scene this morning, it being generally known that the
evidence on the part of the prosecution would be com-
menced by the examination of Mr. F. Bond Hughes.
Though persons are only admitted to the :body of the
Court by ticket, so that more than a certain number
cannot get in, the Rotunda is daily crowded with per-,
sons who obtain some knowledge of what is going on
within from those who occasionally pass in and out.
The Court sat precisely at ten o'clock. The traversers
were in punctual attendance. The jury having been called
over, and having answered to their names,
The Clerk of the Crown—Direct the crier to call Fr-
ederick Bond Hughes.
Mr. Hughes entered the Court with a large bundle of
papers under his arm, and ascended the table. His ap-
pearance in Court excited much curiosity. Having been
sworn by the Clerk of the Crown, he proceeded to give
evidence.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—What is your name? Witness
—Frederick Bond Hughes.
You are a short-hand writer? Witness—Yes, I am.
You have been constantly in the habit of reporting ?
Witness—Yes, I have been reporting for the last seven-
teen or eighteen years.
Upon different occasions ? Witness—Yes, upon dif-
ferent occasions.
Do you remember having come over to this country in
September last ? Witness—Yes, I do.
On what day did you arrive ? Witness—On the 29th
of September—on the 30th, I mean.
On what day of the week ? Witness—On Saturday.
I never was in Ireland before. I recollect the following
day, the Ist of October. I went to Mullaghmast on that
day. I think I arrived there about half-past twelve
o'clock. There were a great many persons assembled
about the grounds when I got there—a large number.
I should think about thirty or forty thousand persons, as
near as I can guess. I could not see over the whole ex-
tent of the ground. I saw persons coming from different
places with banners. If you will allow me to refer to my
book I shall tell you the inscriptions I took on that occasion
—a note or memorandum of what passed ; that is, of the
speeches. I have it here. I saw the inscriptions. " Hurra
for the Repeal !" was one of them. " A Nation of
Nine Millions is too strong to be dragged at the tail of any
other country ;" in front of the platform was an inscription,
" The Man who commits a Crime is an Enemy to this
Country," " Ireland must be a Nation." There were seve-
ral persons in and about the platform, with papers round
their hats, and staves in their hands ; there was an in-
scription on the papers, " O'Connell's Police." I know
the traverser, Daniel O'Connell. I see him in Court.
[Here Mr. O'Connell who sat at the table, immediately
under the witness's chair, rose and bowed with a smile to
the witness.] Mr. O'Connell arrived at the place of
meeting about two o'clock. lam not aware that I saw
Mr. John O'Connell on that occasion. There were some
of the gentlemen present whose names I learned, Mr.
Ray and Dr. Gray. I think I should recollect Mr. Ray
(the witness here turned to the travener's box in which
Mr. Ray and Dr. Gray sat and identified both gentle-
men.) I know Mr. Thomas Steele. I saw him at that
meeting. I see him now in Court. Mr. O'Connell
was dressed that day in a sort -of velvet robe,
scarlet or claret colour. Some gentleman pro-
posed that Mr. O'Connell should take the chair.
That motion was put and carried. Mr. O'Connell
addressed the meeting on his taking the chair ; I took
notes of what Mr O'Connell said upon that occasion to
the best of my ability... I took my notes in short-hand.
I have both the transcript and the original notes here (a
large parcel which lay before the Clerk of the Crown was
here opened, and several neatly bound boo s were taken
out, one of which was handed to the witness).
The SOLICITOR- GENERAL then desired the witness to
read to the jury what Mr. O'Connell said, which he pro-
ceeded to do. When he came to a particular passage the
Chief Justice desired him to read it over again, which he
did as follows :—" I admit that the union has the force
of law, because it is supported by the policeman's trun-
cheon, the soldier's bayonet, and the horseman's sword ;
but it is not supported by constitutional law."
CHIEF JUSTICE—What is the number of that paper or
page from which you are reading ? Witness—Page 5,
my Lord, from No. L, book.
The witness continued to read Mr. O'Connell's speech
on taking the chair. When the witness bad read as far
as the passage, " and take it from me that the union is
void,"
The SOLICITOR•GENERAI, said that if the traversers
wished they might examine him as to the other portions
of the speech.
Mr. lIATctrELL, Q.C., said it would be better to read
the whole of it, as there were portions of it still unread,
which might be important on the cross-examination.
Witness—The whole of the speech?
Mr. HATeuELL—Yes ; there are passages here and
there interspersed that we think most material to the

traversers.
Witness then proceeded to read the remainder of Mr.
O'Connell's speech at the meeting at Mullaghmast. I
heard resolutions proposed at that meeting. The first
resolution was proposed by Mr. Aylmer, see page 313.
I heard the second resolution, which was proposed by
Joseph Hacket, of Kilkenny, and seconded by Alderman
Keshan; it was as follows, " We, the gentry, clergy,
freeholders, and other inhabitants of the province of
Leinster, here assembled, do declare, in the face of Hea-
ven and our country, that no power on earth save the
Queen, Lords, and Commons of Ireland, can make laws
for Ireland." That resolution was put from the chair
and carried.
Soucrroa-GENERAL—Who was the chairman?—Mr.
O'Connell was. The resolution was carried. After
that I saw some gentlemen come forward and present
Mr. o'.Connell with a velvet cap. It was a round velvet
cap. It was presented to Mr; O'Connell' by Mr. O'Cal-
laghan.. Mr. O'Callaghan said he was deputed by the
Committee, whose names were attached to the address,
to present him (Mr. O'Connell) with the national cap.
Mr. O'Callaghan also presented an address to Mr.
O'Connell (witness read the address).
Mr. O'Connell—Who is that signed by?—By Mr.
White and other gentlemen.
60=111013.-GENERAL--What was' done with the cap
after that ?—lt was placed on the head of Mr. O'Connell.
Did he then say anything ; he said he ac-
cepted the gift with pride and pleasure. The witness
went on to read the observations of Mr. O'Connell on
the occasion. There was another resolution read at that
meeting.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Look to page 46 of your re-
port. Witness—lt is before me.
Soucrroa-GENERAL—Read the resolution which you
find there.
The witness read the resolution, which was to the
effect that a petition be prepared and presented to the
Imperial Parliament for a repeal of the union.
Soucrroa-GENERAL—Was that resolution put and
carried ? Witness—lt was.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Look to page 49 of your report,
and read the resolution contained in it.
Witness read the resolution, which was a vote of
thanks to, and of confidence in, Mr. O'Connell.
Witness in continuation—That resolution was not put
by Mr. O'Connell, but by a gentleman who took the
chair after him. The meeting was held in open air at
the Rath of Mullaghmast. I saw several gentlemen
there that day. (He pointed out and identified Mr. John
O'Connell, Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Steele. He looked about,
apparently for Mr. Barrett, but that gentleman was not
then in Court. He then identified Dr. Gray and Mr.

Ray.)
Souerron-GENERAL—Did you know the persons
of the traversers before that day ?
Witness—No, I did not. I knew the persons of
Mr. Daniel O'Connell and Mr. John O'Connell. Mr.
John O'Connell was in the chair after dinner. I heard
him speak after dinner when proposing the toast " The
Queen?' (He read the speech). I heard several letters
read ; there was one read from Mr. Thomas Ffrench,
of Castla•Ffrench. (He read the letter). It was dated
the 26th of September. There was a gentleman pre-
sent at the dinner who, I was told, was Mr. Barrett.
That person spoke on that occasion. (He then read a
report of the speech made by Mr. Barrett).
To SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Mr. O'Connell spoke at the
banquet. This followed the meeting. (Referred to his
notes, page 27.) Mr. O'Connell then said—This was
a most delightful day for him, a day full of consolation
and hope. How glad he was to be at Mullaghmast.
Mr. O'Connell—Speak a little louder.
Witness continued to read from his notes the speech
of Mr. O'Connell to the part, " We had not one So-
vereign of her family who was not a decided enemy of
Ireland ?"
Mr. HATCHELL, Q. C.—You have omitted the refer-
ence to the Queen.
Witness—" We had not a Sovereign save herself, who
was not a decided enemy of Ireland."
Mr. O'Connell—Read correctly, Mr. Hughes.
Witness continued—" She was the first sovereign of
the House of Brunswick that treated this unfortunate
country with justice, and it is afflicting to think that her
Ministry are so base and perfidious, so paltry and selfish,
as to endeavour to obtain advantages for themselves and
their party at the expense of the high and chivalrous feel-
ing of exalted allegiance which the people of Ireland
bore, aye, and still bear, to their Queen." Witness read
till he came to say, " a proof that each man—
Witness—l might have misunderstood him.
He proceeded -to read to the words " present op-
pressors"---
Mr. FITZGIBBON, Q.C.—Oppressors?
Witness continued—And when he came to that
portion of the speech in which Mr. O'Connell spoke of
the hostility of the Minister to Ireland, considerable ex-
citement was manifested in Court, at the different allu-
sions and:expressions of the Hon. Gentleman. The fol-
low ina passage in reference to the Duke of Wellington,
b
was received with great laughter. " The poor old Duke!
what shall I say of him? To be sure he was born in
Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man
a horse." The witness continued to read to the close of
the speech, when the examination was resumed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Turn to pages 6,7, and
8 ; see if the name of Mr. Ray is mentioned there.
Witness—Yes, it is there. The Chairman having
given the toast of the " Repeal Association," calle upon
Mr. Ray to answer it. Mr. Ray rose and spoked to
toast.
[Tile witness here read Mr. Ray's speech, and then at
the direction of the Solicitor-General, turning to 7,8, 9,
read. Dr. Gray's speech in answer to the toast—" The
dismissed magistrates, and Repeal Arbitrators"
rus.e.asixation contin
ued—l remember attending a meet-

ing at the Corn Exchange the day after the meeting at
' Mullaghmast • it was on the 2d October ;_ I got admis-
sion there by having stated that I intended to report; on
the following day I obtained a. ticket of admission from
Mr. Ray; the'words upon the ticket were, " Admit the
bearer, Mr. Hughes, of the press, to altour meetings
er
;
at the time I got that ticket I said, had bett
mention that I am the reporter for the Government ;"
Mr. Ray said, " No, that will be sufficient, it will admit
you ; the Conciliation Hall will be open soon, and we
will have a different place then for yourself ;" it was un-
derstood at Mullagbmast that I was the Government
reporter. At the conclusion of Mr. O'Connell's opening
speech there he stated that he understood there was a
gentleman there on behalf of the Government. I then
got up, and said that I attended on behalf of the Go-
vernment to report the proceedings. Mr. O'Connell then
said that on former occasions, when Government report-
ers had attended, be had afforded them every facility,
and furnished them with documents, &c., and that he
should be happy to afford the same accommodation to
me. I believe it was also through Mr. O'Connell that I
received a ticket for the banquet. (Witness here iden-
tified Mr. Barrett as one of the persons who attended

the meeting at Mullaghmast.) -
On the 2d of October, did you take notes of what oc-
curred at a meeting of the Association at the Corn Ex-

change?—l was not there at the commencement.
A Juryman here withdrew. ' The Solicitor-General
not having observed it, was apprised of the fact by the
Court, and the examination was suspended.
The Foreman of the Jury complained that they had
difficulty in bearing.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL desired the witness to speak
louder.
Mr. O'Connell also begged the Foreman of the Jury
to desire the witness to speak louder in giving his evi-
dence, as he occasionally sunk his voice.
Mr. FORD said it would be well if the Court would re-
move that parcel of barristers from the Court who were
getting phthisical and coughing.—(Laughter.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then resitmed the examina-
tion, desiring the witness to speak as loud as he could
and slowly. Have you got the notes of the meeting at
the Corn Exchange of the 2d October ?—I have.
Do you find there a speech of Mr. O'Connell, deli-
vered after a letter from Limerick had been read by Mr.
Ray 2—l do. Witness then referred to his notes and
read the speech of Mr. O'Connell on that occasion, who
referred to a paragraph that had appeared in the papers,
headed " Military organisation at Clontarf," and stated
that though a good quiz it fiever ought to • have been
printed ; he hoped the7Government would take no notice
of it, and pointed out that some arrangements as to the
horsemen and carriages was absolutely necessary to pre-
vent confusion among so great a number.
Now turn to the notes of what occurred at the meet-
ing of the 3d of October; but before we go to that,
state which of the traversers were present at the meeting
of the 2d of October P—Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Ray.

Was Mr. Steele there ?—He was.
Which of them were present at the meeting of the
3d ?—.Mr. O'Connell, Mr. J. O'Connell, Mr. Duffy,
Mr. Ray, Mr. Steele, the Rev. Mr. Tierney, and Dr.

Gray.
Do you see Mr. Duffy in Court ?—I do.
And the Rev. Mr. Tierney ?—I do.
Look at page 13 of your notes, and state whether a
letter was read from Loughrea ?—I must state that all
the letters and papers in my notes are not copies of the
originals. I had applied to Mr. Ray for them, but had
been told that I could not obtain them. Having also been
told that the copies printed in the papers were authentic,
I copied them.
Who told you they were authentic ?—ln the first in-
stance I applied to Mr. Ray at Mullaghmast, for copies
of the resolutions passed at the meeting, and when I saw
Dr. Gray he appeared to have some reluctance to give
them.
Mr. Frrzainnow—l beg your pardon, please state
exactly what Dr. Gray said.
The CHIEF JUSTICE—When did you see him first ?
Several days afterwards.
Mr. FITZGIBBON—State exactly what Dr. Gray said ?
—Dr. Gray told me he could not find the resolutions that
were passed at the Mullaghmast meeting. I did not
procure them subsequently. Dr. Gray told me expressly
that he could not find them. I told him I had applied
to him, because Mr. O'Connell had promised them to
me, and that I wished him to communicate with Mr.
O'Connell on the subject. He replied he would take
an hour to consider, and that he would avrite me a
note at the end of that period stating what his deter-
mination was. I said, " Oh, no ; do not write to me,
you had better see Mr. O'Connell." I was then leaving
the room, and as we were going out of the door by
the staircase of the Corn Exchange, O'Connell was
coming up, and I said, " Oh, here is Mr. O'Connell;
now, Dr. Gray, will you speak to him ?" Mr. O'Con-
nell addressed mc, and said, " Well, Mr. Hughes, are
you here for documents ?" or something to that effect.
I think that that is nearly what he said. I answered
that I had applied to Dr. Gray for the resolutions
passed at Mullaghmast, and that he had told me he could
not find them.
Mr. FITZGIBBON—YOU are !quite certain that Dr.
Gray used those words ? If you are not certain do not
swear it ? Witness—Yes, I am pretty certain he said
that.
Somerrou-GENnuAL—Go on and state what next
happened.
Witness—Dr. Gray then took Mr. O'Connell aside
into a room; shortly afterwards Dr. Gray came out. On
his coming out I asked him, " May I have the documents,
or do you refuse them?" He replied, " Oh, no, Ido not
refuse them ; I do not mean any disrespect to you, but
I can't lay my hands on them." And he further
added, "I do not think I should waste my time in
writing those out for Sir Robert Peel." I replied that
"I had nothing to do with Sir Robert Peel, and that I
was applying to him in my character as a short-hand
writer for those documents." He thereupon replied,
" Oh, you may take them from the newspapers ' • they
are authentic." On the following day I was in the Corn-
Exchange, and Mr. O'Connell was there. I addressed
him, and told him that Dr. Gray had refused to give me
copies of the resolutions, but told me they were authentic
as they appeared it the newspapers. He replied, " Yes,
yes, they are authentic." A letter from Loughrea was
read at the meeting of the Association on the 3d of Oct.
I got this copy of a letter from Mr. Ray ; it is dated
Loughrea, Oct. 2, 1844, and was read at the meeting of
the Association on the 3d of Oct. (The witness then
read the letter, which inclosed 141. as the subscription
of 14 of the Town Commissioners, and was signed Patrick
Skerrett, chairman, Wm. M`Carthy, secretary.) It was
Mr. O'Connell read that letter.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Did Mr. O'Connell make any
observation immediately after reading the concluding
passage " that they were determined to remove two or
three recusants from the body with all possible dispatch,
when the opportunity offered ? Witness Yes ; he said
they were right to turn out those who would not become
Repealers.
Judge PERRIN—Is that letter addressed to any one ?
—Mr. O'Connell said " I received this letter this
morning."
Judge PERRIN—Is it addressed to anybody ? Wit-
ness (after again looking at the document)—This is a
copy, and there is no address on it to any.—(The
wit-
xtess then went on reading Mr. O'Connell's observations
in moving that the letter be inserted on the minutes, and
the thanks of the AssoCiation conveyed to the writer,
and the other worthy gentlemen named therein.) Mr.
Steele was present at that meeting. He said he rose
to second the motion of the Liberator ; that he had ex-
pressed some very strong opinions on the Loughrea
meeting ; that he considered that meeting more im-
portant than that at Mullaghmast, where
" Behemoth, biggest born of earth,
Upheaved its vastness."

(Sensation throughout the Court.) Dr. Gray was at that
meeting ; he read the names of certain persons, whom he
moved should be appointed arbitrators ; Mr. O'Connell
seconded the motion, and it was carried. Dr. Gray then
said he had a short report from the Arbitration Com-
mittee to present, and he had to move that some gentle-
men be appointed arbitrators, the first of whom was a
gentleman who was recommended by no less than eight
millions of people. He was known by the name of the
Liberator, and he moved that he be appointed arbitrator
for the city of Dublin, which motion was seconded and
carried, and Mr. O'Connell said that he accepted the
office, and would devote one day in the week to the duties
of it, with the other gentlemen who were named. Dr.
Gray, at that meeting, read a list of arbitrators that were
admitted, many of whom were gentlemen who had been
dismissed from the commission of the peace.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Did Mr. O'Connell make any
observations respecting that document ? Witness—He
said " I hope I shall live to see the day when the hall of
the Four Courts will be very empty."—(Laughter.)
SOLICITOR-GENERAL--Look to passage 64, and see
if any observations were made by Doctor Gray. Wit-
ness—Atter he had moved the admission of Mr.
Balfe as an arbitrator, and the motion was carried, he
said, " I wish to state, before we leave the question of
arbitration, that all the necessary documents have been
forwarded to the districts where the arbitrators have
been appointed. I recommend the parties not to open
the Courts until those documents be forwarded."
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Which other of the traversers
was at that meeting? Witness—The Rev. Mr. Tierney
was present. In page 97 I find the speech of Mr. Tierney,
delivered at that meeting of the Association. (Witness
then went on to read the Rev. Gentleman's speech.) Mr.
O'Connell spoke after the delivery of the speech by the
Rev. Mr. Tierney. and said the Rev. Gentleman de-
served the thanks of the Association, and that he (Mr.
O'Connell heard the speech with pride and pleasure.
The motion was carried by acclamation, and Mr. O'Con.
nell moved that the Association should adjourn to the
next Monday, when he (Mr. O'Connell) said he would
revive a resolution of which he had formerly given
notice, and that it was useless to expect any redress
from the English Parliament. He (Mr. O'Connell)
said he hoped the members of the Corporation who
attended in their robes at Mullaghmast would meet
him (Mr. O'Connell) on the following Sunday
at Clontarf, but at all events he (Mr. O'Connell) would
be there in his robes. I attended a meeting on Monday,
the 9th of October, which was held at Calvert's Theatre,
in Abbey-street. Mr. John O'Connell was in the chair.
There were present Mr. John O'Connell, Mr. Ray, Dr.
Gray, Mr. Duffy, Mr. Steele, and the Rev. Mr. Tyrrell.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Oh, the Rev. Mr. Tyrrell is
dead.
Witness, in continuation—l see page 43, 44, and 47 of
my notes, and see the resolutions. He proceeded to read
them, but was interupted by
Mr. HATCHELL, who said, let him read the report of
the entire meeting, if you please.
SOLICITOR- GENERAL—That would occupy a consider-
able portion of the day, and at present I will only read
the resolutions passed at the meeting.
Mr. HOLMES— You have a right to any one particular
speech, but not to the entire.
Mr. HATCHELL—I beg your pardon. .Ihave a right
to it all.
The witness then, in accordance with the directions
of the Solicitor-General, read the speech delivered on

that occasion by the Rev. Mr. Tyrrell, and all the reso-
lutions passed at the meeting, which were the same as
those passed at Mullaghmast.
Witness:4 see page 30 of my notes.
SOLICITOR-GENtRAL—Do you find an entry there of
anything that was said or done by Mr. Duffy at that
meeting ?—Yes, he said I have to hand in money from
Mr. blank, of blank parish, and blank county. I mean
by blank I could not catch the name or residence of the

person.
- SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Look at page 35, and see if
Mr. Ray took any part in the proceedings at the meeting
on the 3d of October ? Yes, he said it was essentially

necessary that every accommodation should be afforded
to the press, and the passage to their table kept free ; if
the reporters were inconvenienced they cannot perform
their duty, and the public will be disappointed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—LOOk at page 35, and read
what Mr. O'Connell said upon that occasion?
Witness read what Mr. O'Connell said; which was to

the effect that the passages should be kept clear, and that
Mr. Ray should have the passage clear, on account of
the manifold letters.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL--LOOk at page 52, and see
if any money was handed in by Dr. Gray.
Witness—Yes; I have a memorandum to that effect ;
and there were several sums handed in by him; I was
never present at any meeting of the Association when
applications were made for newspapers.
At this period the Court and jury retired for a few
minutes, and the witness being told by Mr. Hatchell that
he might retire from the witness-box, did so.
After the lapse of about fifteen minutes, the Court
again sat, and Mr. Hughes commenced reading a speech
delivered on the 9th of October, by a Mr. Green, of
Liverpool, at Calvert's Theatre, Dublin. He (Mr.
Green) professed to represent 400 Repealers enrolled in
Liverpool.
Mr. HATCHELL, Q.C., cross-examined/the witness on
behalf of the traversers—l am not a reporter for the
public press. My business is that of a short-hand
writer ; I never was connected with a journal. I have
been reporting in England, and from an early period of
my life have been pursuing that profession. I was par-
ticularly employed by the Government to come over to
Ireland, and act according to directions, but not to report
any particular meetings. I had with me a letter addressed
to the Attorney-General. I waited on him on my arrival,
but he was not at home, and I was directed to Mr. Brew-
ster. This was Saturday night, Sept. 30. The meeting at
Mullaghmast took place next day. I went there, accom-
panied by an assistant in a fly-boat. I got there about
twelve o'clock. I had no person With me but my as-
sistant from London, who was there for the purpose of
transcribing my notes. He is not learning the business
—he is a good reporter. He might occasionally take
notes, but not to assist me. His name is Leatham. He
is now in Ireland. We came over from and returned to
England together. Leatham came over with me after my
first return, at the time I was sworn before the grand
jury. He also came over with me on the present occa-
sion. He came over, I suppose, to be examined. He
took some notes of the proceedings, and transcribed
some portions of them. No other person came over as
a witness. We do not belong to Mr. Gurney's office.
When we arrived at Mullaghmast there were a few
on the ground. We were there about three quarters
of an hour before the arrival of Mr. O'Connell.,
We got on the platform, and had a good view of the
meeting. Parties came on the ground playing music.' I
heard nothing about their being temperance bands, nor
am I certain they were from anything I saw. I dare say
some of them were temperance bands, but cannot say. I
can form no such opinion ; all I can say is that there
were bands there, and I think one or two of them had
temperance inscriptions on them. Never attended any
county meetings. I have attended public meetings at
Manchester, which are the only meetings I had ever
attended. At that at Mullaghmast there was a great
number of women and children in the crowd. The
movement was one of a perfectly peaceable character.
Did not perceive any proneness to riot or disturbance.
Whenever the Queen's name was mentioned it was
received with the loudest applause. After Mr.
O'Connell's arrival I heard it stated that I was on
the platform as the Government reporter. On Mr.
O'Connell asking whether any gentleman was pre-
sent as a reporter on the part of the Government,
I stated the object of my attendance, and every possible
accommodation was immediately afforded me. Ido not
think Mr. O'Connell shook hands with me. I received
a ticket for the banquet. .1 mentioned that Mr: Letham
was my assistant. A very great number of persons of
respectable appearance were present at the banquet. It
took place at about five o'clock, and terminated at nine.
The same order and regularity was preserved at the din-
ner as at the meeting.
From,iwhat you know of public meetings, do you
think it necessary that persons should be appointed to
preserve order?—l think that parties on the platform
would have been much incommoded at the meeting at
Mullaghmast had there not been persons present to pre-
vent the people getting on.
As a fair man, I ask you, would you not consider it an
influential mode of procuring order, peace, and regu-
larity, they having such persons present as those whom
Mr. O'Connell appointed 7-1 think it very proyer that
such persons should be present. The Queens health
was given at the dinner, and was received with very
great applause. The health of Prince Albert was also
given by the chairman, Mr. John O'Connell, and was re-
ceived in the same manner. Before the loyal toasts were
given, the letters apologising for non-attendance were read.
Have some of them with me. Took no short-hand note
of them, as documents are generally furnished to the re-
porter. The next letter I have is from the. Right Rev.
John Cantwell, expressing his deep regret for not
being able to attend. Have not the letter from
the Right Rev. James Keatinge. I was promised
copies of the letters that should be read. When I ap-
plied afterwards at the office, could not get them. Was
referred to the newspaper publications as authentic.
Hold in my hand a Freeman's Journal of the 2d of
October. I see a letter from Dr. Keatinge. To the
best of my belief, that letter was read at the meeting.
Have no note of my own of it. Have a note of Lord
Ffrench's letter being read. Have a memorandum of
two letters from Castle Ffrench being read.
Have also a note of a letter signed by Michael Boylan,
of Hilltown-house. When I was refused
,copies of' the
letters at the office, I took them from the ,newspapers.
There was a letter from Sir Colman O'Loghlen read.
Did not pay much attention to the letters, as I was pro-
mised copies. Have anote of a motto which was inscribed
upon a banner, " That a nation of eight millions is too
great to be dragged at the tail of another nation."
Mr. HATCHELL—Do you not know that was taken
from the Morning Chronicle 7-oh, by no means. I did
not take it from the Chronicle.
Do you ever read that paper?—l do not.—(Great
laughter.)
I suppose you only read the Standard ?—(Laughter.)
—I read neither. Having to attend Committees of the
House of Commons, I do not read many newspapers.
Did you ever attend a trades' meeting ?—No.
Were you ever a member of any institution in England
for the fostering and encouraging of native manufac-
tures !—No.
Have you heard of the repeal cap, manufactured by
Mr. White, of Thomas-street?—l have.
Did you go there to fit yourself . with one?—l did not.
Did you ever hear what the cost of one would be ?
—No.
Do you understand anything of the nature of puffing?
—I do not.
Don't you know the distinction between the puff direct
and the puff indirect?—No.
Don't you think it would be a very good way to puff
a cap or a coat to mention the name of the maker at a
public meeting 7—No doubt of it.—(Laughter.)
• You would have no objection to encourage native
manufactures in any way you could? Not the slightest.
You see no great harm in that ?—No.
If Mr. White could have made a cap to fit you, would
you have worn it?—l did not wear it.
Did you handle the cap at all?—I did not, but I ad-
mired it.—(Laughter.)
Would it not be an excellent travelling-cap to go about
with in the packet?—(Laughter.)
Do you not know that gentlemen who visit Paris often
come back with the tricoloured Republican cap as a com-
fortable cap to sleep in?—l know they bring caps hode
with them sometimes. •
Now you, as a man of the world, did not think there
was any treason in that cap ?—I formed no opinion.
Were you patriotic enough to buy anything to further
Irish manufactures?—l did.—(Laughter.)
I suppose you bought a tabinet for your lady 2—l did.
(Great laughter.)
It was a great advantage then that you were brought
so tar for the encouragement of Irish manufactures, and
if you had been disengaged you would have had no ob-
jection to have got a lady for the tabinet 7—Probably
no t.—(lmmense laughter.)
Indeed you might be worse off.—(Great laughter.)
Mr. HATCHELL—How long did you remain in Ireland
after the meeting at Mullaghmast ? Witness—l left on
the 18th of October.
Mr. HATCHELL— Did you attend a meeting of the Re-
peal Association on the 2d of October ? Witness—Yes,
I did. There, as at all other meetings, I was
treated with the utmost possible civility. I received
every courtesy and kindness at the Association.
Mr. HATCHELL—You only read such extracts from Mr.
O'Connell's speeches, if I mistake not, as the Solicitor-
General requested you to read ? Witness—That was all.
Mr. HAFCHELL—Then you have notes of several other
expressions which fell from Mr. O'Connell, independently
of the extracts which you read in Court ? Witness—
Oh, yes; I have notes of very many passages from Mr.
O'Connell's. speeches which I did not read, but I will
read any part you require.
Mr. HATcnELL--Look through your notes, if you
please, for some remarks of Mr. O'Connell's on Rib-
bonism at the meeting of Oct. 3 ; they come immediately
before a letter from Tallow, signed by a person named
Jackson.
The witness looked over his notes, but was unable to
find the passage.
Mr. HATcnELL—The passage I allude to came before
the reading of a letter from Sharman Crawford ; but ;
rather think you have it not, for I believe you did not
takes notes until after the reading of that letter.
Witness—The first remarks I have from Mr. O'Con-
nell are in allusion to a meeting in Donegal.
Mr. HATCHELL—Read what Mr.
"O'Connell said on
that subject if you please ?
The witness here read from his notes his report of
Mr. O'Connell's observations with respect to the Done-
gal meeting. The report of the same remarks whioh
appeared in the Freeman's Journal of October 4th, was
as follows :—" Mr. O'Connell said he did not know
that this gentleman was not inaccurate in stating that
they did not take notice of the meeting in Donegal, but
in general meetings were not taken notice of except
they received some letter respecting .them. What could
they say of the Douegal meeting but what had appeared
in the newspapers, for they heard of it only throug4'the
newspapers, and the public knew of it in like manner.
It was as obvious as the sun at noon day that they, must
have been exceedingly gratified at that spleridd meeting,