The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

brought forward singly and individusily on its own abstract
meriis—that this proposition is not part of a preconcerted sys-
-1 tem—and that it is not brought foi ward with the design of
bringing forward any further measure. We have had no corn-
mu nicatiens whatever on the subject, with any authorities in
Ireland or elsewhere. We have nothing upon that sub-
ject in our contemplation. You may say I saw ru-
mours to the effect, that though there was no com-
munication with Roman Catholic authorities in Ireland,
yet Viet we have had secret negotiations with higher autho-
rities at Rome. Now I state explicitly that those reports are
altogether without foundation, and I have a strong impression
that you will do no good in Ireland by secret aed unavoeved
negotiations with Rome to which the Remark Catholics
of Ireland the not made a party.—( Hear, hear. )
Ido not believe that any attempt at negotiation for the pur-
pose of fettering the independence of the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland, or of establishing a taonnexion between the
Roman Catholic Church in Ireland and the State, could lead
to any satisfactory result unless the Roman Catholic clergy and
the Roman Catholic laity cf Ireland were parties to that ne-
gotiation.—(Cheers.) t have said that this measure which
we now propose is not a part of any general system. I have
said that it is not brought forward for the purpose ot facilitating
any future proposal for the endowment of the Roman Catholic
Church of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But I say, also, with re-
spect to that question of endowment that it is a question sur-
rounded with g eat difficulties.—( Hear, hear.) I see no
reason to believe that there exists on the part of the Roman
Catholic laity—l see no reason to believe that there exists on
the part of the Roman Catholic any intention to depart from
the declaration which was made on a recent occasion by the
Hon. Gentleman the Hon. Member for Kildare with respect
to the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church. It was distincly
stated by that Hon. Gentleman, that both the Catholic laity
and the Catholic clergy were opposed to any State endowment
of the Roman Catholic church. It is also impossible no. to
see, after the demonstrations of feeling which have been made
in this coetyry with regard to the measure under discussion,
that the subject is one of immense difficulty; and in stating
simply and merely the truth with respect to this, then, I say
that we entertain on intention of proposing any measure for
the endowment of the Roman Catholic church ; but when
my Honourable Friend says, will you go on to say that it
is not consis.ent with your principles to propose any endow-
ment for the Roman Catholic Church—will you say that you
have decided that at any future time you will not. propose any
such endowment. I say that my Right Hon. Friend has no
right to ask such a question.—( Cheers and counter-cheering.)
Now, I beg the House to draw no unfavourable inference from
what I have said.—( Ironical cheers ) We have no s -ch in-
tention ; but I will not consent to hamper and embarrass any '
future Government by any declaration like that sought to be
wrung from me—that the difficulties in the way of the
endowment of the Roman Catholic Church are insuperable.
—(Cheers.) We have not any such measure in contemplation.
at present. I see very great difficulties in the way of such a
proposition, but no one has any right to call upon me to say
that those difficulties are insuperable, and I will nut purchase
any relaxation of the opposition by which this measure has been
met by placing upon record any declaration fettering the ac•
Lions of those who may hereafter be responsible for the Govern-
ment. My Hon. Ft iend asks if I do not consider that or,
principle there is a religious objection to this measure. Now I
cannot say that. there is any decided religious objection to it.
I do not think that my Honourable Friends can
fairly take a religious objection to this proposal.
( Hear, hear.) Now a religious objection might have
been much more fairly taken to the Endowment Act of
last session.—(Cheers.) By that Act you created a board
for facilitating the endowment of the Roman Catholic'elergy,
and for the building of Roman Catholic chapels. Now, that
measure was much more open to religious objection than the
proposition for an increased grant to Maynooth. I cannot
concur in the dictum of the Hon. Gentleman, that it is an
offence in the eyes of God and a dereliction of religious principle
in all circumstances, and at all times to grant money for re-
ligious purposes to those who differ from the religious tenets of
the Church to which we belong. Now let us see how:my Hon.
Friend gets over the difficulty of Malta. True, he says, we took
Malta under a capitulation, which we are bound to observe;
but why should we take Malta at all ?—(Loud cheers. ) Why,
because it was a convenient possession in the Mediterranean,
and we are ready to go to war rasher than abandon it.—( Hear,
hear.) But if a religious principle was involved in the matter
—if it were contrary to religious principle to undertake the
maintenance of the Roman Catholic Church, why did we accept
Malta at all? My Hun. Friend cannot get rid of the difficulty
by referring to the capitulation. The. religious difficulty was
involved in the acceptance of it.—( Loud cheers.) But, Sir,
this is a most dangerous doctrine to advocate as respects
the interests of the Established Church itself.—( Hear, and
cheers.) The principle is this, that it is a violation of con-
science to call upon any one to support a religious faith
from the tenets of which he dissents.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
in arguing the question of establishments for the Dissenter, I
may say to him that the Established Church is a great national
institution, that as such, all have an interest in its welfare, and
all are equally called on to contribute towards its support, and I
may say, too, in doing so, you violate no conscientious scruple.
You are aiding the general cause of religion by supporting the
Established Church. But I say to the Dissenter no tax can be im-
posed for the maintenance of the Established Church, and if, after
that; I make him, whether he be willing or not, contribute to-
wards its support, if 1 subject him, nut only to a pecuniary im-
post, in support of the Church, but accompanying that
impost by an avowed insult to his religious feelings,
in what a position am I not placing the interests
of the Established Church?—(Loud cheers.) I know that the
Hon. Gentleman says that tithes are an impost upon property,
and that Dissenters take property subject to that incumbrance,
and that therefore it is no violation of their conscientious
scruples to take from them tithes. I know that he says that
church-rates are likewise an impost upon property, but what
does he say to Church extensions?—( Loud cheers. )
Is that a legal incumbrance on property ?—( Loud
cheers.) Now, suppose that the Government should
think it advisable to do as Government bad done in
some former years, to propose a grant for the construction of
religious edifices, in connexion with the Church Establish•
went, should we be able, in accordance with the principles of
the Hon. Gentleman to call upon the Dissenters to contri-
bute without any violation of their religious scruples?—(Loud
cheers.) I must confess that I see nit difference in the cases,
and I believe that we violate religious scruples just as much in
veiling upon members of the Established Church to contribute to
the support of the Protestant Dissenters of Ulster, as to call
upon those Dissenters to contribute to the support of the Esta-
blished Church. This is a most dangerous doctrine to propa•
gate with regard to the Established Church. Do you violate
any religions principle by calling upon the Quaker, who ob-
jects to all war, to contribute towards the support of the
standing army ? Sir, I do not believe that there is any religious
principle involved in this measure.—(Cheers.) I believe that
' the measure which is now proposed by the Government
for the permanent endowment of Maynooth is just towards
the Roman Catholics, and that it is contrary to no principle
of religion. As to the effect which the vote of this House
may produce, I believe that the willing adoption of this
measure will produce a kindly feeling in Ireland. It has
already produced a great effect there. It has already produced
a great effect here. It has been received in a grateful and a
friendly spirit, corresponding with the spirit in which it has
been proposed.—(Cheers.) I hardly expected that it would
have produced this effect.—(Cheers. ) Ido not believe that the
gratitude which has been expressed by the Roman Catholics in
Ireland has been expressed in the expectation of future gain,
but I believe that the effect produced has been a natural effect,
which a kind and generous policy invariably produces as its re.
salt.—( Loud cheers.) Sir, I will not be tempted to refer to
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Edinburgh, and to the taunts and imputations which he
thought proper to indulge in ; but I will rather fol-
low the example of the Noble Lord, and abstain
from everything that can create a feeling of irritation.
I think I could prove from the admissions in the speeches of
the Right Hon. Gentleman to this House—though I do not
mean to say that he has in those speeches committed the
slightest violation of principle—though Ido not mean to say
he spoke of the measure because of the difference between
9,000/. a-year and :26,000/. ; but I could prove from
the speeches of the Right - Hon. Gentleman, that
he is the last man in the House who should throw an
imputation upon the present Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Every feeling with regard to what has been said about the in-
consistency or the security of the Government, I totally dis-
regard, for I say they should be, and they are subservient to
the one feeling which prompts me to utter this expression, do
not reject this Dill.--( Cheers.) I do not know what the
consequences may be with regard to the kindly relations
between England and Ireland, but this 1 know that
the proposition has been the means of calling forth the most
kindly feelings in the minds of a grateful people. Therefore,
I say, let all parties combine and aid the Government,
in carrying out this measure.—( Loud cheers.) Take
what course you please in regard to the Government
but I say let not your indignation fall upon the measure, but on
those who nave brought it forward.—( Hear, hear.) 1 shall
say .no more about it now on that point; but I must
remind the House that it is such a measure, and is now
in such a state as will render it impossible to
withdraw it without creating suspicion, and inflicting a deep
wound on the feelings of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) I
do not press the measure because it is competent for me to do
so, but because I believe it to be a wise, and a just, and an
equitable measure.—( Cheers.) I say also, recollect that
we are responsible for the peace of Irelan,l. We must break
up the formidable confederacy that exists there against the Go-
vernment ; but I do not believe that we can break it by force.
I believe that with respect to the maintenance of the Union and
the Established Church, yen can do much to break up that
confederacy by acting towards the Irish people in a spirit of
kindness, and of forbearance and of generosity, and I believe it
is essential that we should do so, in order to carry on the Go-
vernment, and to preserve the peace and union of the two
countries —(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I gave notice of the in-
tention of the Government to bring on this measure
last session of Parliament, without the slightest reference to
circumstances that have since taken place. But upon the day
upon which I gave notice of our intention to bring it on, our
attention was called by the Noble Lord opposite to
another matter of great importance.—( Hear. ) The
Noble Lord called our attention to a rather ominous
circumstance; and there certainly did appear some reason for
it, for a cloud appeared in the western horizon, small indeed at
first, but threatening in its position and aspect.—( Hear. )
It became my duty, on the part of the Government, on that
day, in temperate but significant language, to depart so far
from the caution which is usually observed by a Minister as to
declare publicly, that while we were most anxious for the
amicable adjustment of the differences—while we would. leave
nothing undone to effect that amicable adjustment, yet,. if our
rights were invaded, we were prepared and determined to
maintain them.—(Loud cheers.) I own to you, that when. I
was called upon to make that declaration, I did recollect with I
satisfaction and consolation that, the day before, I had sent
a message of peace to Ireland.—( Renewed cheering.) Sir,
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Canterbury (Mr.
Smythe) thought it not improbable that the time might
come when this country might be compelled to summon
all her energies in her defence. I heard the speech of that
Hon. Gentleman with great satisfaction, from the ability and
eloquence which it displayed.—(Cheers.) I heard the speech
of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Manners) on the same evening,
1. differing, as I did, from the Noble Lord in many of the to • l
tions which he took—differing altogether from him in his s.
vi
with regard to the Revolution and to that Prince
whomrews
was impossible for
differing called the Dutch Stadtholder ; but it
differing from hint as I did, not to hear hisresapteestalitisafnaedtitohne,
speech of the Hon Gentleman, without very
at the prospect of their future eminence I foretold this to
g
the Hon. Gentleman—l know not whetherhe recollects it—at
an earlier period, when others thought from a first embarrass-
ment that he had failed—I tried toconsole him, and I told him
my conviction was, that he was destined to future distinction.—
( Cheers.) My anticipations have been realised by the display
of the other night.—(Renewedc heers.) Sir, in the course of
that speech the Hon. Gentleman said he thought it probable,
that in case it should be necessaryf to summon the energies of
this country in the defence o her honour and her interests,
that high trust would be committed to my hands. May God
' forbid that so great an evil may
fa
uponllit us.—( Loud cheers.)
May God forbid so great
an evil fall
may
—,
in his
result of nwoeftrhf e world as
my Hon. Friend has shadowed forth
this
hisspdeej.hte.
( Cheers.) But whatever may be, in
—to whatever hand; the destinies of this
countryea
may be committed, I shall take my place by the side
of my successors, and shall give them every
support in my power to this just and honourable cause.
—( Cheers) If the calamity of war should befal us, it it
my earnest hope that when it occurs it will find the people of
this empire united in loyalty to the throne, in mutual eon&
deice, and in a love of those institutions from which
t they derive the highest benefits.—(Tremendous cheering.)