The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-17 00:00:00

11DE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENI NG, FEBRUARY 17, 1844.

the Protestant Mayor of Wexford heading a procession to the
mass-house. He (Mr. D'lsraeli) mentioned that to show that
the position that was always assumed in that House, viz., that
the present state of feeling in Ireland was the consequence of
the Protestant connection, was one of error. It was not so, but
it was the consequence of Puritanism—it was the consequence
of that system which had been destroyed in this country, and
which the people had been all banded together to support.
With respect to the rebellion of 1641, which was a rebellion
not against the Monarch but against the Parliament, it led to
the establishment of the Government upon an essentially ca-
tional character—it led to the formation of the Convention of
Kilkenny, which was in the habit of entering into
treaties with the King of England. One of those trea-
ties, that for the settlement of the Government of
Ireland, was executed with that Convention by Lord
Glamorgan, afterwards the celebrated Marquis of Worcester.
The secret articles of the treaty were, that the Roman
Catholics should enjoy the same privileges which they had
enjoyed at the beginning of the war, and both churches
should be recognised as being perfectly equal. Those were
the secret articles of the treaty of Glamorgan, which was
ratified by Charles I. It was not, therefore, a necessary
quality of Toryism that the Tory party should entertain feel-
ings of ill-will towards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The Tory
party did not invent the penal cede. It was necessary to keep
this in view. Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House
should not consider that a feeling of antipathy to Ireland was
an heir-loom in their political creed.—( Hear, hear.) 'the
party opposite could be as little considered the favourers of
free trade as the natural allies of the Irish people.—(A laugh. )
The Noble Lord (Palmerston) laughed, but he begged to
remind him it was not the Tory party who introduced the
penal code, nor what was called puritanical episcopacy ire()
that country.—( Hear, hear.) From the moment that was in-
troduced the pure Protestant Church lost all influence over
the island.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman then re-
ferred to the vote he gave last session, and acknowledged that
he was a party man, and considered it the duty of a
Member of that House to become a party man ; but
one of the conditions of becoming a party man
was that they should have a leader, and a leader who was pre.
pared to lead.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He had a
sincere respect for the Right Hon. Baronet, which he believed,
he would acknowledge, and he should be sorry to make any
animadversions upon him; but
,when the Right Hon. Gentle-
man used that celebrated aphorism, that Ireland would he his
chief difficulty, he was one who had no alarm that it would
prove so. He did not believe that Ireland would be the chief
difficulty of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because he believed
that a Minister having great power, and possessing a large
majority, would use them to settle the Irish question.—
( Cheers from the Opposition.) There was a silence, which
ha rejoiced at, for two years with regard to that question, and
he was glad they were not called on to give any opinion upon
it; hut when the question was faced upon their attention, and
when the Right Hon. Gentleman took no part in leading pub-
lic opinion, he could not help thinking that the force of cir-
cumstances had dissolved the party tie on the question of Ire-
land.--( Hear, hear.) One of the greatest admissions ever
made is+ his time was that Ireland was not a party question.—
( Hear, hear.) Ireland was in a state of turbulence and com-
motion, and his impression was, that it was the duty of the
Minister to repress turbulence and to apply his mind to put an
end to the causes which produced it.—( Hear, hear.) It was
said that it was impossible to repress it sooner, that
they should wait till a certain quantity of sedition
was realised—(Loud laughter)—and if the Government
had remained quiet for nineteen months, he should be silent.
He now came to the question, and all he wanted to do was to
plate his onn coniluct in an intelligible light ; in doing FO he
felt he should be fighting the battle ef every Member of the
House. He had been taunted with manifesting a new-born
zeal for Ireland. The imputation was not a very heavy one ;
zeal of any kind was such a rare quality, that in this age and
country, the imputation of feeling a new-born zeal was not an
overwhelming one. He wished the Right Hon. Baronet was
equally regenerated.—( Laughter. ) He heard much of the
evil of not giving Ireland identical institutions with England.
Now he always thought that the great cause of the misery of
that country was its having identical institutions with Ireland
forced upon it. What good had Ireland derived from the
juries, the benches of magistrates, like those of England, that
had been forced upon it? The Governmeut in Ireland ought
to be centralised, with a strong administration. He had never
changed his principles on this or any other subject ; they were
the natural principles of the democracy of this country.—
( Hear, hear, and cries of " On, oh.") They were not the
principles which would have supported the despotism of
Cromwell, but they were the principles described in the
writings of great, and practised by eminent, men,
The Honourable Gentlemen opposite also had principles ;
their principles were distinct and intelligible. He gave the
Whigs credit for entertaining them—their principles had pro-
duced great men, and perhaps great deeds—they were the
principles of the landed aristocracy. Whether there was not
some happy via media between Whiggism and Toryism, he
did not know ; but he had no idea of the Tory party being
pointed out as the tyrants and confiscators of Ireland—as the
men who had invented the penal code ; when, on the contrary,
it was the leader of the Tories who, when the Parliament
obliged the people to take the oath of supremacy to the King,
allowed any Irishman to be recusant. Could they have a better
guarantee for justice to Ireland than that granted by Charles
1., and supported by the sanction and advice of Arch-
bishop Laud? If they could only forget two centuries of
political conduct for which the Tory party was not
responsible, they might settle the Irish question with kindness
to the Irish people. Mr. Pitt—the Tory Minister—
proposed measures which, had they been carried, would have
saved them from the miserable position they now occupied.
The Catholic Church question would have been settled long
ere this; and he believed it would still be settled at a very
early period on principles analagous to those conceived by the
great statesmen of 1636. He believed that no one specific
measure would do any good for Ireland; they must reconstruct
the social system of that country; they must begin by organis-
ing a complete and strong executive. If the Noble Lord came
forward with such a comprehensive plan he would sup-
port him at any sacrifice, though he might have to place
his seat again at the disposal of his constituent'.
He remembered that he represented the oldest Tory consti-
tuency in the kingdom, and that he inherited good Tory prin-
ciples, and last year, when he supported the tariff of the
Right Hon. Baronet, he went down and explained English
history to his constituency—(Great laughter)—and lie could
assure the House they took the most enlightened views of the
subject. In 1832, when the Right Hon. Baronet's party was
smashed—when it was said that he could never revive—that
he was a doomed man—nothing could have been more difficult
than to re-censtruct his party. He had not only to do that,
but to remove the prejudices of .many eminent persons; and
there he sat, with the Right Hon. Secretaries of State at his
side—who were among those whose prejudices he had to re-
move—(Loud cheers from the Opposition, and laughter)—and
he succeeded in removing them.—(Laughter.) They were
colleagues, of whom he might be proud ; and it was an enceu-
raging example. He thought it was not more difficult to settle
Ireland than to re-construct the Tory party after a revolution.
It was not more difficult to remove the prejudices of those who
had thought but little on the question, than to remove the pre-
judices of those who had thought a great deal.—( Hear, hear. )
He must protest against the new system of government, which
seemed to be the substitution of the mere fulfilment of the
duties of office for true administration. What were all these
Reform Associations—Anti-Corn-law Leagues—Repeal Asso-
ciations? They were merely the consequence of the people
taking the Government The the country into their own
hands.—( Hear, hear.) The public• mind, among a free
people—no one in authority took the lead of them—they
coalesced, and very often carried their crude opinions into
effect. If the Government would not lead the people, the people
would drive the Government. _.(Cheers.) He could not vote
for the motion of the Noble Lord, because he did not see that
he promised more than her Majesty's Ministers. He wished to
hear some man say that the Irish question should be settled.
great'ersoceeaty m. o
andng the
see
He had been told that this was a physical question—and again
that it was a spiritual question. There was great distress among
the people, great distress among the middle classes, and some-
times there w
Papists. The only way in which you can inform yourselves
upon these matters, and come to a wise opinion upon them, is
utopolonh
look around und youas a
upon of
the foreign
featuresinterfen
principles Government is established. And having
done this—having cast your eyes over other countries and
formed an honest opinion upon them—then bring to
talk
of society,
Ireland the same unimpassioned spirit as you have
done to the well-being of another country.—(Cheers. )
Then see the population of Ireland, and compare it
it with what itself receives from the soil, and you shall find
that country more thickly peopled in proportion than is China
at the present day. Such is the quantity of food which this
country affords to its own population, and that too of a quality
the lowest that can be conceived.—(Cheers.) So that the
Irish population has not what every other population of the
globe—not excepting even the Poles have, he meant a resort
this dense population, thus left to misery and want, there is a
iCnhuthrcehewasheicohf famine.—(Hear,doesnotblonglohtehaer.)And in the midst of
people, and a territorial
aristocracy, the major part of which is resident in Paris—and
to remedy all these the weakest Executive in the world.-
-(Hear, hear.) What would they say of any other country
in which there were such things as these'?—( Cheers.) They
might say that did such things as these exist in another
country there could only be one remedy, and that must be
found in revolution. But they could not indulge in revolution in
Ireland, and why ? Because of their connection with a more
powerful neighbour. England then, by its connection, was put
in this odious position that an English Ministry has to do all
peaceably and quietly for that country, which in any other
country could only be hoped for by a revolution. It was quite
evident that they must have an Executive in Ireland, which
bore an imediate relation to the aristocracy. But that Execu-
tive could not improve Ireland by mere Acts of Parliament.
The moment they had an equality in the two Churches, then
they might hope for order in Ireland, and when order came,
famine would gradually disappear, and prosperity gradually
come. But this would not be rapid. What mattered that ?
Fifty years was nothing in the history of a country. The Right
Hon. Baronet, Sir Robert Peel, might do much to lay the
foundation of this, and he hoped would do so. But he did
not think the effect would be created by the Hon. Member for
Belfast (Mr. E. Tennant), or, as he supposed on a former
occasion, by the King of France. He looked for this to a
power much more influential. He looked to that power which
was not only more intelligent, but more benignant.—( Cries of
"Young England.") No, he did not mean young England ;
(Laughter )—but he meant that power which stated that any
question that could not bear discussion was doomed.—( Hear. )
Mr. WARD then rose to addree the House. Some parts of
of the Honourable Gentleman's
speech he would not attempt
to discuss.—(Hear, hear.) He would not attempt to touch
that which was unintelligible.—(Hear.) He could not, for
the life of him, see how the Hon. Member could expect the
settlement of this Irish question, after the speeches that had
been made on the subject, without some conciliation.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member had talked much of the course
that had been pursued in Ireland. He had attempted to de-
scribelet that rebellion to
which he referred related only to three p
there ; why. he ought to have known that
provinces.—(Hear,)
Hear
much of its history, and had talked of rebellion
He was thrown back necessarily, inevitably thrown back, on
the motion of his Noble Friend. Nothing would be done, for
from the moment the Right Hon. Gentleman obtained the
support of his agricultural friends, however good the motion
might be, however strong the arguments, however great the
grievance, there was a foregone conclusion, a result perfectly
certain, as far as that House was concerned. A formal com-
pact had been signed, sealed, and delivered, by which they
(the Opposition) had been delivered over to the Government
for two or three years. But Hon. Members must not shrink
from avowing their opinions because they were unpopular.
There was another and a higher tribunal—public opinion, and
it was the duty of the representatives of the people to keep
these things continually before the eyes of Parliament.—( Hear,
hear.) It was a very remarkable fact in the present debate
that if words were things (as Lord Byron said), and if they
could credit the one-half of what Hon. Members on the other
side of the House said, there was hardly any difference between
Hon. Members on both sides of the Douse. An Hon. Mem-
ber who spoke early in the debate, and the Hon. Member for
the University of Dublin, fully concurred with the Hon. Member
for Waterford, on the necessity of restoring tranquillity to
Ireland, and pursuing a mild and conciliatory course of policy
towards Ireland. The Right Honourable Baronet the
Secretary of State for the Home Department ex-
pressed his disapprobation of holding Ireland by mi-
litary occupation, and said he should prefer governing
the people through their affections. But be (Mr. Ward) had
much rather deal with parties than phrases ; and when he
looked to the present state of things in that country, and when
he remembered the declarations of the Hight Hon. Baronet,
he was induced to believe that Ireland was destined, for a pe-
riod undefined, as long as the present party continued in

power, to be governed by the new law of conspiracy, and an
army of occupation. —( Hear, hear.) There were 21,000 men
now in Ireland, instead 14,000, as there were a few years ago.
The present Government had proclaimed to all Europe that
they could not trust Ireland. They had their armies, their
steam-boats, and fleets, but not for the purposes of commerce.
Ireland was in a most critical condition, even by the admission
of the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Govern-
ment. After six months of a state of discontent, almost bor-
dering upon revolution, the Government proposed no
remedy. The lion. Member then adverted to the state trials,
and observed that those who were tried could not have been
aware that the law was as defined by the Attorney-General
and the Chief Justice. Indeed if the law was
as laid down by the Chief Justice, there was
not a single man on either side of the House,
who had taken a prominent part in public affairs
for the last ten years, that had not brought himself within the
meshes of this conspiracy law. The speeches made during the
Irish agitation, and the meetings assembled were not more
violent or multitudinous than those which preceded the Reform
Bill, in which agitation the Right lion. Gentleman the Se-
cretary of State fur the Home Department was a prominent
actor.—( Hear.) Above all, the Noble Lord the Secretary for
the Colonies ought not to forget the line pursued by his poli-
tical friends on that occasion. Never, in the annals of this
country were s'ronger words used by apublic man than by the
Noble Lord on that occasion, when, aided by three hundred
Members, he said distinctly, and publicly-sit was no-
torious at the time—that the King might choose
what Ministers he pleased ; Lord Grey's Government
had done their duty in bringing forward a great national mea-
sure, and the Duke of Wellington and his colleagues might
take place and infamy.—( Hear.) Now when they talked of
conspiracy, and held up their hands in horror at the atrocity
committed at those meetings in Ireland, they ought not to
forget what they had said themselves.—( Cheers.) Let them
not say that they were voting for what they believed a great
national good, but that if others did so they were conspirators.
The Right lion. Baronet should not have forgotten his receiv-
ing the deputations from Birmingham—above all, when
his Noble Friend passed a just eulogium on the conduct of
Mr. O'Connell in 1836, 1838, and 1842, on one of which
occasions, Mr. O'Connell risked his popularity, and almost his
life, by standing up against the combination of tradesmen.
Had Mr. O'Connell held up his finger at the time of the
Chartist movement, it would have been joined by the whole
Irish people. Nobody would deny that that was a great na-
tional service, and he regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet
had put so ungenerous a construction upon it as to say that it
was, in point of fact, only a proef how much more deeply laid
that conspiracy was. The Right lien. Baronet was the last
man that ought to have used such language. Were he to look
back to the period of 1831, when he came into office on the
shoulders of Mr. Attwood, he should make the admission that
Iris conduct, as a Member of Parliament, went to the verge of
legality. He was cautious, no doubt—he was always a sort of
Secretary of State in embryo on those occasions, and
he was willing to profit by the incaution of others—such
as that of the Nob! it ere fl-0 SN•rotary for the Celenies.
One was carried into the Admiralty, and the other was made
Secretary for Irelan 1. As was said by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman. the Member for Waterford, there was no direct ap-
plication of physical f,ree, as in a more recent instance, but
a sort of mewl force, based on a physical organisation.
What must influenced the decision of the !Imre of Lords
with regard to the Reform Bill was—deny it as they might—the
Birmingham meeting of 1831. Now he had the curiosity to
look beck to the records of that period. They had heard a
great deal of Alullaglimast, and Tara, and other multitudinous
meetings in Ireland, but he believed they forgot what passed
amongst themselves in England only ten years ago. When he
looked to the records of this period, he was inclined to think
that it was a mere milk and water affair in Ireland. There
was an earnestness, and stubbornness, and high resolve charac-
teristic of the English meetings, which carried the Reform
Bill. A great meeting was held in Birmingham on the 4th
of October, 1831. It was attended by an enormous multitude
of people from the Midland Counties. Mr. Attwood presided
at it, and the first words he used were not very unlike these
used by Mr. O'Connell. He said, "I am about to ask you to
cry out, God bless the King,' I desire you all to take off you;
hats, and louts to heaven, where the just God is, who rules
both Heaven and earth, and to c-y out, i God save the King.".
There was no disloyalty in that. The Times, in commenting
upon it, said, " The spectacle which here presented itself was
beautifully and magnificently sublime." One might think it
was the Nation newspaper, the editor of which was involved
in the late prosecution. " Every head was uncovered,
every face was turned to Heaven, and one hundred thousand
voices responded to the cry of God save the King.' " That
was a burst of loyalty ; but he was afraid it did not last very
long; for he found that there was a speech made by Mr.
Haynes, who said, that "he agreed that the power of the
people was greatest, not when it struck, but when it was sus-
pended, and that it was best to show force, without using it,
as the Roman said—
" Ostendite helium, pacem habebetis."
Ile wont on to say that 150,000 of his countrymen had met
to petition the Lords to pass the Bill. A question had been
asked, Would they pass the Bill ? He would answer it by
asking another—Dare they refuse to pass the Bill? He then
referred to the army, and said, that the army could not fight,
if the people refused to pay the taxes—that those who had reaped
immortal honours in foreign countries would not murder their
wives, relations, and friends, in order that 400 might tyrannise
over 16,000,000. This was language (said the Hon. Gentle-
man) not very dissimilar to that used in Ireland, and according
to the definition now given of the conspiracy, those who joined
in the English proceedings were equally guilty of conspiracy,
and he was himself as guilty as any body ; but he did not profit
so directly by it. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baro-
net were as guilty of conspiracy as any of the band which the
Right Hon. Gentleman boasted of having caught in his net.
lie should like them to be tried by a jury—not by an illiterate
Dublin jury—not by anilliterate Dublin jury, who mixed in
public-houses with their pot-house associates—but tried even
by.a jury of their own colleagues. He would give them the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Lincoln, as their foreman, or
the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, who
rnce declared, as the guns were firing, when the King
was coming to open Parliament that the next time they
were fired, they would be shotted.—( Hear, hear.)
As to the law as it now stood, it was difficult to understand it.
—( Hear, hear.) It threw a halo round an illegal act for an
illegal object. The Government seemed to have sacrificed all
those principles which they had hitherto asserted were right in
the abstract.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if they adopted such
courses, was it at all surprising if they sacrificed the principles
of liberty ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought the greatest injustice
had been shown in the late trials in Ireland, and he felt no
doubt, that if the Attorney-General of England could only
forget those principles of justice, of honour, of mercy and in-
tegrity, which he had ever held, that the time was not far dis-
tant when they would not only see Mr. O'Connell, but Mr.
Cobden, the inmate of a gaol —( Hear, hear.) He believed
that in no place but Ireland would they find an
Attorney-General who would frame an indictment against
a whole people.—( Hear, hear.) He would warn
Gentlemen on the other side of the House of the course
that they were pursuing ; they were leading the people to
inquire where was the real conspiracy—was it among the
people of Ireland ? was it among the people of England ? or
was it in that House ? Let them answer that question ? Were
they not leading the people to believe that the Queen was
favourable to the support of an oligarchy ? (Hear, hear. )
Every concession that had been made to the Catholicsshad
been neutralised by the manner in which the law had been ad-
ministered. Years back no Catholics had been admitted into
any place of trust in Ireland. Was it to be wondered at that
they should have raised a cry against the proceedings of that
House? They wanted ;the same justice for them that was
adopted towards England, and they were entitled to it.—
( Hear, hear.) The Church question in Ireland was what
emancipation had been. The Act of Union was in dispute.
He thought some of the articl s of the union and the Church
were the bane and the curse of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon Baronet, with all the responsibility of the Govern-
ment on his shoulders, had closed his eyes to his own predic-
tions, when they were, in fact, realised.--( Hear, hear.) The
fifth article of the Act of Union was, in his opinion, the real
bar to its continuance.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the
Catholic feeling on this point ought not to be misunderstood.—
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then proceeded to read
several extracts from a work, entitled " The Correspondence
of a Junior to his Senior," showing the degraded manner in
which the Roman Catholics in former times were treated,
many parts of which raised considerable laughter in the House.
As to the Church question, he had spoken so fully upon it last
session, that lie did not now feel himself justified in trespassing
on the attention of the House. He thought he had some
reason to congratulate himself on the progress of the opinions
announced by him regarding the Irish Church. The senti-
ments expressed by the Noble Lord the Member for the City
of London, and the Noble Lord the Member for the town of
Sunderland, were of a liberal nature, and he must say they
were very promising disciples.—(Laughter.) Perhaps he
could not, without some impertinence, call the Noble Lord
( Howick) his disciple, as that Noble Lord had always pro-
fesssed sentiments of a very liberal character. There were
several remedies proposed—the first was the appropriation of
the income of the Protestant to the Catholic Church. The
other was to abolish all, and that was what he preferred.
It was again suggested that the voluntary system
should be established in Ireland—always, of course,
with a due regard to vested interests. Great obloquy had
been cast upon him in the course of last session. He had al-
luded to the immense fortunes left by certain Protestant digni-
taries. He was not then aware that a return had been laid on
the table of the House, which showed that the probate of all
the Irish Bishops exceeded the enormous sum of 1,875,000/.
The state of the Protestant Church in Ireland really required
modification ; the semi-religious, semi-political condition of
the Protestant clergy was most offensive to the public, and
they had just reason to complain of it. They frequently at-
tended very large meetings, and took a very prominent part in
them—sometimes using most violent language—and yet
they were not prosecuted. There was the Reverend
Holt Waring, for instance, who attended very large
meetings and used very violent language, and yet he was not
prosecuted. The Right. Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Dublin seemed to be quite insensible to the in-
terest of the great body of the people when talking of his own.
That Right lion. Gentleman talked of doinestie peace being
founded upon religious truth. Religious truth ! Who was
to be the exponent of that truth ? He supposed the Right Hon.
Gentleman. He said the Church question should not lie
agitated—that it was indecent to agitate that question.—( A
laugh.) But where was this truth—where was its source?
Why more than half the Christian world disagreed with him
in his religious belief.—( Hear.) Compared with the great
body of Christians, Episcopacy was a mere fraction.
He (Mr. Ward) regarded such a declaration as that, not only
as insulting, but as almost impious. He feared that the prin-
ciples of the Right Hon. Gentleman once acted on, they would
speedily lead to the dismemberment of the empire. There was
no men more anxious to preserve the union than he was, but
he considered it utterly impossible to maintain it, if the de-
clarations of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, were to be acted upon. They
should adopt a conciliatory and healing policy. The Hon.
Gentleman then quoted the opinions of 'Mr. Maddison, who
had been President of the United States of America. These
opinions were delivered at a time when it was apprehended
that the union of the States was about to be dissolved, and
that each was to have a separate government. What took
place in America then ? Did he urge upon those States which
were induced to hold together, the propriety of governing those
States which were inclined to separate by a military force,
and so forcibly retaining them ? No ; a convention met at
Philadelphia, and at that convention Mr. Maddison urged in
the strongest manner the policy of giving equal rights and equal
privileges to all the inhabitants of the States—a perfect
equality of civil and religious rights. He told them they
ought to live together as the members of one family, and as
fellow-citizens of a great and flourishing republic, for which
their ancestors had spilled their dearest blood. So said he
(Mr. Ward), let the Irish people have an equality of
civil and religious rights, and be in all respects placed
upon a footing. of equality with the people of England.
The people of Ireland were at present discontented ; he did not
say but military force might suppress the untoward signs of
that discontent. For some time they might continue to govern
Ireland in this manner, but if the political horizon should
become clouded—if foreign countries should threaten war,
encouraged, perhaps, to do so by the d scontent of Ireland--
then, instead of finding the Irish people, their steady, warm,
and efficient supporters, they would find them dangerous and
determined enemies. A great responsibility was attached to
the present Government. They should recollect the condi-
tion of Ireland from the union to the period at which Catholic
emancipation was granted. If in 1800 Catholic Emancipa-
tion had been granted, thirty years of agitation and turmoil
would have been prevented. Ihe Right Hon. Baronet should

take advantage of the loyalty which at present prevailed in
Ireland—a heavy responsibility rested upon him—he should
make concession—he should concede before concession would
be useless, and so secure the safety, tranquillity, and integrity
of the empire.
Colonel CONOLLY denied that the members of the late
Government possessed the confidence of the people of
Ireland. This motion had been got up by the Whigs
—the friends of the Irish conspirators to help them
out of their present calamitous position.---.( Great cheering. )
He should like to know what lion. Gentlemen opposite
meant by a difference of law and of right ? The aristocracy of
Ireland drew a distinction between the admitted wrongs of that
country and those fictitious ones which formed the stock in
trade of the agitators. Why, what was the alleged great evil
of that country, according to their account? Why, they said
that all the evils arose from the Established Church, and the
grand remedy which they suggested was its abolition entirely.
But had the Established Church no claims to justice, were
the Protestants of Ireland to be swept away from off the face
of the country ? which would be the case if the proposition of the
Noble Lord opposite were acted upon. He was cure that the
great body of the Irish people were toe sensible of the advae-
t ages which they derived from the Church ever to
consent to such a proposition. The body of the
Protestants suffered the most galling injuries and perse-
cutions for the List 20 years ; and, according to the views
of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, and the Noble
Lord the Member for the City of London, the Protestants and
Presbyterians of that country were to be treated with greater
violence than they were during the period of the thirty years'
war on the Continent, when every outrage was perpetrated
against them. —( Loud laughter.) When the Noble Lord
talked a good deal of possessing the confidence of tlr, people of
Ireland, he (Colonel Conolly) was astonished at the Noble
Lord's effrontery.---' Renewed laughter.) He had also talked
of the wrongs of Ireland; but why, if they existed, did he do
nothing to redress them during his long administration ? The
whole of his term of office was one of continued insecurity and
danger to the lives and properties of the Protestants of Ire-
land.—( Ironical cheers.) They had very few of the educated
classes of Ireland along with them, although they might have
the agitators. Although he (Colonel Conully) would not at-
tempt to vindicate all the acts of the landlords of Ireland. yet
he thought they had been most unfairly treated by the Noble
Lord's Government, and he could not expect or flatter
himself with the idea that he had had the approbation of the
people of Ireland along with him. lie (Col. Conolly) was
ready to give him credit for bringing in the Grand Jury Bill,
and lie also thought that a system of poor-laws would, if pro-
perly framed, be most beneficial to the poor of that country;
but still he was sure that the lives and property of the higher
classes were endangered by that insatiable cupidity which had
been excited by the course fostered by the late Government.
The Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland, had asked were
they to govern Ireland by force ? He (Col. Conolly)' would
answer him, and say they should govern her by the due ad-
ministration of the lass of the country in the repression of tie--
indent agitation. The Nehle Lord, the Member for London,
!eel net nilucied to many ei lee measures which concerned Ire-
land, but he (Col. Conolly) would do so for him, and tell
him that they were almost held up Le universal exist-Mien
(Loud laughter)—and that he (lid not at all enjoy that sole
popularity which he imagined to the exclusion of all other
parties. During his administration he was completely under
the dictation of that agitation which the present Government
hail the manliness and courage to repress —(lronical cheers
and laughter.) The Noble Lord's name was connected with
the Coercion Bill, which was not very popular with the Irish
people ; it was true he (Colonel Conolly) voted for the Bill as
well as the Noble Lord. —( Loud laughter.) Same Honourable
Gentlemen and Noble Lords connected with the late Govern-
ment might have lost their 2,0001. or 3,000/., whilst others
took care to instal therroeves in offices which entitled them to
the receipt of salaries during their lives. Many of them took
d—d good care of that.—( When the Hon. and Gallant Gentle-
man used the above rather expressive adjective, a peal of
laughter rang through the House, and a considerable time
elapsed before he could pr7sced in his address, owing to the
renewed shouts of laughter with which he was met.) He
thought much of the unpopularity of the late Government arose
from the number of hungry expectants whom they shook off.
The Noble Lord had raked up a bundle of old stories, which
were likely to increase that animosity between the two parties
tin y se loudly pretended to deprecate.
Mr. WARD rose to explain. He had never said, that
there were Catholics who disliked the Act of Settlement. He
hod said nothing of the kind. What he had said was, that at
the time it was passed, after the battle of the Boyne, when the
two religious parties were pithed as it were against each other,
the Act of Settlement was felt as a grievance. But he believed
at present the loyalty of the Catholics of Ireland was un-
doubted.
Colonel CONOLLY had misunderstood the Hen. Gentle-
man and he was sorry for it.
Air. Sergeant MURPHY, after briefly stating that in his
opinion, the popularity of the Noble Lord near him (Lord
John Russell) would be unaffected by the attack of the Hon.
and Gallant Member opposite said, he much regretted that
the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland,
was absent from his place in Parliament ; because on
a former occasion, he (llr. Sergeant Murphy) had
felt it to be his duty to, animadvert on the conduct
of that Right Hon. Gentleman during the late State proseeu-
floes in Ireland. He regretted the more that he was absent,
inasmuch as he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) intended again to
advert to that Right Hon. Gentleman's conduct. With re.
gard to the late trials in Ireland, he thought no one could say
that they had been conceived in a spirit of impartiality, or
that they had been characterised by that tone and temper
which the great importance of the occasion demanded.—
(Cheers.) There was a degree of captiousness in the conduct
of the Attorney-General which no one could fail to perceive.
Every morning of the trials he was certain to exhibit this cap-
tiousness. If any one of the traversers happened to be absent,
no matter from what cause, the Attorney-General would stop
the proceedings of the Court in order to compel the attendance
of those traversers. He (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) would now
turn to the trial itself. He would ask, why had there been such
delay in those prosecutions, if such prosecutions were necessary ?
If those meetings, out of which the prosecution had arisen,
were endangering the peace of the country, then, upon their
own showing, the Government were answerable for having
risked the peace of Ireland by the delay they had exhibited in
instituting the prosecutions. On the 9th of May in the last
year, in answer to a question from a Noble Lord, the Right
Hon. Baronet expressed his determination of maintaining the
union. The Lord Chancellor, in the House of Lords, on the
same day, declared it as his belief, that the meetings then
being held in Ireland were illegal, and rendered persons at-
tending them liable to an indictment. Having this high
opinion as a foundation to go upon, he (Mr. Murphy) asked
why such delay had taken place in the institution of the
prosecutions? Was it that those who had embarked in
those proceedings should be lured into a further
violation of the law, or was it the intention of the Right Hon.
Baronet to entrap one individual whom he thought his chiefest
difficulty with respect to his Government in Ireland? The
Right lion. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department,
the other night, said that they on the Opposition side of the
House need not hug themselves with the notion that the pre-
sent Government coming into power had been the cause of the
multitudinous meetings being held. He said that such meet-
ings had been held in 1840 and 1841 on the same subject.. If
similar meetings had been held before, he (Mr. Sergeant Mur-
phy) would ask what difference took place in their character
between May and October in 1843 ? The Lord Chief Justice
on the bench had declared that the moment Mr. O'OConnell
made the declaration that the Queen in Council with one in-
dividual had a right to summon the Parliament in Dublin, he
was guilty of an indictable offence. Then, why had the Go-
vernment refrained from instituting the prosecution? Was it that
seven or eight individuals might be brought together in order that
that might be tortured into a conspiracy ? If so, that con-
spiracy had lasted for upwards of eight months; and he (Mr.
Sergeant Murphy) would ask whether, during that time, any
person in Ireland had felt the least apprehension. But the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) said the indict-
ment was riot preferred until after a proclamation had issued
from the Corn Exchange, which contained words savouring of
military forms. Why those words, it afterwards appeared, had
been introduced by a person of the name of Morgan. They
were afterwards disclaimed by the Repeal Association—they
were disclaimed immediately that they were brought under the
notice of that Association. He now came to the circumstances
connected with the trial itself. He was not going to
bring up the question again of excluding Roman Catholics
from the jury list, but this he would say, that it was
evident, from what had lately taken place, that if any Roman
Catholics should be indicted for anything which savoured of
a political offence, he must be tried before a jury of Pro-
testants. He asked what would be the moral effect of the
conviction lately obtained by the Government ? Would it
have the same moral effect as a verdict obtained from a jury
differently constituted? Did the Government recollect what
had been said by one of the leading journals in Dublin, and
the Government organ, upon the constitution of the jury ?
That journal, when the jury was formed, said We have a
true flock, but there is one black sheep amongst them, but
that one black sheep will not mar the others." Before the
trial took place, Mr. Thompson, one of the jurors, was heard
to say, that "at all hazards, repeal must be put down."
Could there, he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) asked, be a fair
trial, with such a man as this on the jury ? The Right Hon.
Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, inquired
if it was likely that they would try a question of tithes, or
trespass, before persons continually in the habit of committing
similar offences ! He (Mr. Murphy) said that was not a
parallel case. Mr. O'Connell had always been the advocate
of the Catholics. The parties before whom he was
tried hated him. What, then, could be the moral
effect of such a trial on the people of Ireland?
If the Right Honourable Baronet compared the case to that of
a reputed poacher tried before a bench of game-preserving
justices, the comparison would better apply.---(Cheers and
laughter.) The whole inquiry in Dublin was, on the day
that the panel was struck, had they got a good Protestant
jury? It was so, and the result was what might be expected,
when the man was to be immolated whom they had, for forty '
years, regarded as their most hated political opponent.—
( Hear, hear.) What then would be the effect when the six
million, and a half, or more, of Roman Catholics saw the exul-
tation of all classes of Protestants in the conviction of their
champion and leader ?—( Hear, hear.) But what would the
people of this country say to the management and result
of the trial ? They would say that the trial was unfair
illegal, and unconstitutional, in every part of it.—( Cheers.) Let
them look at the character of the meetings themselves. It had
been said by gentlemen opposite that they were composed of
untutored savages. The magistrates and the aristocracy had
laughed at them, and had asserted that no arguments addressed
to them could have had any effect, on account of the stupidity
of the mere brutes who constituted them. What then did the
Government do? Did they leave the arguments to be ad-
dressed to these brute multitudes ? No ; they brought the
whole question to be argued in a Court of Justice. It was no
longer an ignorant and untutored rabble that was addressed,
but the discussion was transferred to the solemn arena of the
Court of Justice, where it was carried on with the utmost force
of talent and eloquence by men of transcendent ability and
learning, who had elicited in this country the. greatest admira-
tion for their powers. One of those gentlemen, who had de.
Oared in that House that he adhered to the union, acknow-
ledged, in his address to the Court, that, after the arguments
which he had heard, he found greater difficulty in finding
grounds on which he could defend the Act of Union.—( Cheers.)
Was that statement calculated to allay the effect which the
Government had produced by concentrating the agitation in
that focus ?—( Hear, hear.) He might now be allowed to al-
lude to other circumstances—to the mode in which the trial
was conducted, and to come at last to the summing up of the
Chief Justice.—( Cheers.) He (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) lived
in this country, and was a practitioner in its Courts ; and he
believed that nothing lifted England higher in the scale of its
own estimation, and the respect of other nations, than the firm-
ness with which the laws were administered.—(Hear, hear.)
With these feelings, when he read the charge of the Chief Jus-
tice, he thought that, great as was the talent of the Solicitor-
General, he had no hesitation in saying that the
charge of the Chief Justice was, of the two, the better
speech for the Crown.—(Cheers.) The Solicitor-General
was obliged to contrast the arguments of the opposite side with
those which he had to offer on his own part; but the Chief
Justice confined himself to one side.—(Hear, hear.) He
sneered at the pet meeting of the Rev. Mr. Tierr.ey, and he
sneered at the possibility of the Queen and Daniel O'Connell
going arm in arm to open a Parliament on College Green.—
(Cheers, and laughter.) He sneered, also, at the comparison
that had been instituted between the Arbitration Courts of
Mr. O'Connell and those of the Quakers ; but he never re-
ferred to one fact or argument relied on by the trayersers.
The undignified conduct of the Chief Justice did, he admitted,
much to obtain the verdict ; but it did also more to take away
all moral effect from that result. —( Cheers. ) Nor was he

FM..
(Mr. Sergeant Murphy) singular in thatainaion. Their own
press said that they wi..hed the charge of he Chief Justice bbe ad
been less in the spirit eff a partisan.—(Chews.) Hal it en
on the simplest and humblest occasion, it wt.,,ki have been
reprehensible, reprehensible, but it was much more so, when ibe man ych
had fur forty years been looked up to by the treat majority,
of the people with lore and admiration, was upt.n trial for 11,1_
his acts, from the rebellion of 1798 to that period, When,
bu
for his interpezirion, a terrible outbreak would have taken
place.—( Cheers. ) Why did the Chief Justice,
then, never
bring before the jury the tact:that Mr. O'ConnelPaad steel
between life and dear ..1 on that occasion ?—(Chee s. ) Wiate"
a5l
likely that any moral et.'iNat could be produced by such str
beginning with the capt,c'tsness of the Attorney-Gee
then the formation of the jury; P•ith its attendant acciden
and ending with the charge of Chief Justice ?—(Cheetti?
Would it put down the repeal agita 'On ?—("PeciallY when tat:
man in whom his countrymen confidl,l ,„
most was placed un
the ban of the law, under circumstance.% in which the mane
person in this land would not be arraigne,i ? The Right fluti;
'Baronet (Sir James Graham) had said, ttOt he wrote a let"
to the Lord Lieutenant., directing him, in ec.lesiastieal patron'
age, to look only to the fitness of the appoint;.lent. But Irsti
had the admitted fact, that all the episcopal api %ointments ,
been bestowed upon persons who were opposed to ,
national education.—(Hear.) Now he would ask h ny one •
who
regarded cause and effect,whether the tardy and small ct
which were at length promised would have been though
were not for this agitat inn, so long as Ireland was under the • ..°"'"?
nation of a Tory Ministry. And after all, what were the bcalos4
A Commission had been appointed to inquire into a great calito
of discontent. Why should it not before this have made is
report?—(Tory laughter.) Gentlemen might laugh, b,ut
`he system!.
the disease was great, the remedy ought to be speedy.—(H
hear. ) But while the Commission was still deliberating,di_..
agrarian discontent was increasing, and the causes oTf
be the
content were in active operation.—( Hear, hear.) ~Proa
wised grant for national education would he of little use
Government could not enforce the manner of its a
The Protestant clergy to a man refused to allow their ilcubsb!
attend the schools, and in this way they frustrated the great° ,
ject of bringing up the children of different persuasions teethe;
so that their sectarian prejudices should a 'quire no force'
.4,
early life.—( Hear, hear.) He wished now to draw a paraor
between the state of things in this country and in Irelann"
What had been the conduct of the Attorney-General in Enug:
land? He was not a man to slumber in his charge cf t."„
public peace. He had put down by his conduct the at
agitation, and the agrarian disturbances in Wales. But tiers
had he done with the grand conspiracy of the League?—( Cheer,.
from both sides of the House.) But the League had sups„
ceded the theatres.—( Laughter.) Jt had agitated the Nunn!
from end to end. It had collected 100,0001., and held mull'
tudinous meetings. Nay it had even denounced the Geverl;
went, and threatened to agitate until the Government shell
pplicattoto
Le compelled to concede its demands. The League presete,
every ingredient of renspiracy that had been shown in Irelaen..:.
lit that country a newspaper proprietor enters into the via;
of the Repeal Association as a eoratnereiai speculation ; but
League did not allow the connection of tize newspaper 'IA,.
their conspiracy to be a matter of construction, for they estasa
lished a new: -pper themselves, and they avowed that they b
concocted their conspira,y in a small room in Manchester.;
(Cheers.) But, in Ireland, the proof of the conspiracy w
taken from the peaceful and orderly character of the meetelet
and the coincidence of expression on the part of ths
speakers. Now if the Attorney-General wanted to knovilii
were the means of operation adopted by the League, be
have sent to Leamington for a parson, who said that assassins
tion won one of their means. —( Hear, hear.) agb.)
Mr. FE RR A NWhy, the said o thsel —( A-
Mr. Sergeant M D—URPHYy saids theem Hon.ve s. for
Member
Knaresborouggh was a person to whose assertions he must Ors
in that House.—(Cheers.) But there was another ingredi;
in the Irish conspiracy—there was a song.—( Laught Celebrated
Right Hon. Gentleman had, no doubt, read the
distich—

" Oh God, that bread should be so cleats
And flesh and blood so cheap."
Not only did Punch publish these lines--(Laughter). _at s
make the conspiracy more clear, Mr. Cobden quoted tneT, the
League.—(Great
meetin, therefore Punch was a conspirator with
ad
, laughter.) They (the Government) arbc-0
in Ireland from the coincidence of oisinion. this
wee
they had a perfect coincidence, and why 0;14 they na„fotber
cote the editor of Punch ?—(Laughter.) Thei:e washe",tbef
great conspirator for them !—( Laughter.)
Bu.
w font
had done so they must. do more than was done id ~,entber
they must have a jury of agriculturists, with the Hon• e sot
for Knaresbough at their head—(Laughter)—and having
their jury, they must get an Attorney-General to ebas,
~e)
the jury first, and then challenge the counsel.—(Lauga:
But they would not even then be sure of their verdiei.
had been said that one of the best things for the two colialif
would be an interchange of judges—(Laughter)—and Orion tie
for the conviction of the League nothing could be surer t 130,
bring over the Chief Justice of Ireland.—(Cheers.) „sr
perhaps, the Attorney-General would say that the den
merit of repeal was for ever, and that of the Corn-law I"!siiVs
only for once.—( Hear, hear.) He looked at those procecuaol
only as a lawyer—as an Irishman residing in this counfsol
enjoying its blessings—blessings which he wished to be eaLssnsil
to his native country; and seeing the man who had done 25110 rG
in the cause of liberty as any man about to be consignees, 11/
dungeon, he must say that that great man would have, 05r
' events his reward. Posterity would award to him that bl3ot
which his merits had secured to him in his own time.
for
that man had another consolation. Five-sixths of his coon tee
men, and all Europe, looked with admiration upon his. _tio,
and would inscribe upon his pedestal the expression of tni_itatbl
miration. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman 000'd Est
amidst much cheering, with a quotation of which one woe
not heard in the gallery, as he was now completely 1031010
Mr. B. ESCOTT said it had been stated by the tfttle
Lord (J. Russell) who opened the debate on the presenivese
ject, and it had been repeated by more than one Hen' ki 11s in
ber who had followed, that the present period was the erect "
the fate of Ireland. When he first heard the expressl"olll
doubted much. whether it was not one of those which 0%00
fell in the course of the debate, because be his;
not help thinking how many times, during ~ of
own brief experience in that House, the crisivis,
Ireland had arrived.—( Hear, hear. ) But be or,
Escott) really believed, from what had passed during fatet
sent debate, that the present was really a crisis in the ,toes
Ireland.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord (Russell) bad; niser,
that the effect of his motion, if carried, would be the °ln ie
ment of the present Government and the substitutionies
another. He (Mr. Escott) would not disguise all noff
than others who had spoken that evening-, that he was a
relit
man, but he trusted the House would give him coat'
for his assurance when he stated, that if he thought the die
rying of the Noble Lord's motion would tend to softeees
animosities, allay the passions, and heal the different, se,
Ireland—if he thought it could possibly have this effeeste
by this effect consolidate the peace and add to the streasonto
the British empire, he would at once throw off the frestioll;
of party and give his cordial vote in support of the Tti
And, notwithstanding the taunts which the Noble LT. aids
thrown out upon Hon. Members on his (Mr. Eseotts/pei
of the House, it was his own conviction that if the Neblo .bat
could demonstrate to the conviction of independent rain t esti!
the course he proposed to them to take was the best the bad
be adopted—notwithstanding his taunts he would havehne
majority in that House to support him, and enable s
carry his principles into effect. Bat he for one must st),,no
he had heard the remedies of the Noble Lord tb't
feelings almost of dismay. If it were poasiblegol.
his motion could be carried, and that, being Fcipleic;
'he Noble Lord should return to power, the Pry 001.1 A
which he had enunciated in his speech were such a'sflei7
scatter dismay and confusion into every part of the ,nuf
Kingdom. The Noble Lord hail consumed nearly an 'and;
his speech in an endeavour to bring into contemPttoeool,
vilify, the legal tribunals of this country. He °teat 01
with an attack not on the legal tribunals of Ireland, be b
those of England.—( Hear, hear.) Let no one thins Ora j
the bad taste to suppose that to him belongs-1,0
high privilege of defending the character of Illegliter'ej
Chancellor of Englard.—( Hear, hear, and iltssck„
But if that eminent and learned individual was to heater col
But if that eminent and learned individual was to beeno
for a light word spoken years ago, and which he had nooerilbs
pected to hear of again, save in low Radical and decries
newspapers, surely they could all call up in their rnereta sleosir,
recollection of a Secretary of State, who had daredkispes bs
nate the majority of the Peers of the land as the "mast foe
faction.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He did not toeloto
right of the Noble Lord to challenge and inquiri aoseu,
conduct pursued by the legal tribunals of ths atcel
or of Ireland, provided there had been anythingit
stitutional in it.—( Hear.) But the Noble l'wpsietot
merely vilified the tribunals, without even advase,
charge against them. True, from another quarter 191'ClO't
last night heard a charge brought against the 11-one Mel
Justice—not so much as to his words as against his °rope'
and he denied that the House of Commons could besargbtertie
occupied in discussing the manners of a judge.—(l."o2,l oSsif,
The great leader of the Whigs had attacked the J.ll;fitS-te
recent trials, and in doing so had attacked trial hYif ate too
—(" Oh, oh," and great laughter.) The conductd°under.tted
vernment in regard to thelate trials might be divicks.„,olol p
heads—the policy and the legal effect of them. These„r„ase,
were proper subjects for the consideration of that Tit to 'l-1;4
to the policy, then, was it a sufficient answer Wire_ got°, .sit
as had been said by the Noble Lord and by wt.°. loftily
Learned Gentleman (Mr. Sergeant Aplruorspeheyut):,o":oo:::ll
sat down, that other parties had also been guntlyere bid
meanors, for which they had not been indicted. itt jreooo
no anology between the cases, for the
were an imperative duty. So far from these Pt, foo
leading the people of Ireland to despair, as had bees wise the
said would be the case. The very first step wbied Ted
vernment was called upon to take, was to Put Luc' been /or
law those who were agitating the country. He,l,ord tool
much struck by the manner in which the Nobiessa oce yore
sell) had dwelt on the fact of the delay which Noble were
in the commencement of these prosecutions. T.hu.s,selves,oe•
(lid not argue so much that the prosecutions ine`"„nper.ooo
improper as that they were undertaken at an. Mira Beet for
It was not then the prosecution hut the time 0500 JO
that caused him to' complain. But could theY,Prviaeneelittle,
conspiracy before they had formed the link or ,ehe seat see
was to prove the charge ? Were they to take
isolated act, or wait and see what would t_r*
whether the transgression was merely 70earo lords
ment or followed up into a continuance ?—kistoble, epees'
He would now proceed to the strength of the .0 to ir iv
case, which consisted in a general charge of iniuste not in:ogliS
Now, if he could hear a single charge of inkststicaoro, br boa
Ireland, but to any subject of the. United King soble .04
home to her Majesty's Government, the iniustic' itst"
J PP° is
should have his vote. Two instances ni The a-pg.
been mentioned ; and what were they ? ,
ment of two judges of strong political
chasle etnossee
their capacity of politicians, not as judges. Thsed been 'at t
them was, in fact, that their political opinions °kite re"rsiefel
to those of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.)
n'e 00n. 'on the
one of them, at least, it had been admitted by 4) _ ;loges. so;
her opposite% that he was one of the most humUrn_Lbus_r'sabeo,
Irish bench. The Noble Lore, in referring to i.n...:the 00_4
ion, said,. " You have a Church in Ireland
__olio/15.70W_
one million, whereas the other sin or sevesVbile hill'
totally different religious opinions;" and the ~,00 woo
arity,,
tamed that that was an injustice to Ireland.
a`f, by eq°4o
expected the Noble Lord to state what he me
1.7_1A to !tot
to * fife
the awnhdethifer
he
ee
4riedallnylean"
in its laced pithbe
it, what he meant to set up ha-v--incl.s listen,
oath_
„4
(Mr. Escott) declared that, irslyt:„
the utmost attention to the Noble Lo!_.,ooes esh001(1
believed that the only remedy for thegT,7‘,ooth aboto
which he proposed was, that. the grant to
.""? was sais
doubled. The grant to Maynooth Coilegen,
.oncreesoces
8,0001. or 10,000/. By increasing this amorus taid %Ito' e.
be done to Ireland, and all its clamours °
to Ct Mete'
were to be removed. Before they went
for wouldsu
Sunderland
rwl
nen] well toh
ad recollectprn pes
proposed
ants
histl e Noble
remedy
of Ireland. There were in that House threewas ,eorl,
in reference to the Church question. Then, ondentop.
the Noble Lord the Member for the City 0, 'o't the lilt b 1
Lfnorcirslitshigsseavarar,tile_oi,f
small one, he believed; there was the partY, last
Learned Gentleman opposite, strengthenellthe Gooroposs
great accession; and there was the partY Londonsrigiocebe
'1 he Noble Lord the Member for the City 0'
gran site,
to and t
acselhleegeh.ad
Thea]rearideyns.t
natnedd,L toear
ninecdreGaseen
ttiheme
agnra,s,,,reapsvisibleitt.oasoe.ear_
P° the
Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, pro
_nu
to thin t• re
number both of Irishmen and Englishn'en " k tb‘. lb°
a great boon to Ireland. He was hapPY into effeF helt°,4
bad no chance of carrying their intentiesi „It, sat_
_on
that they all meant to maintain the union. ,
hadble Lboeredn,
stpheeakllilnegmtbeenr
minutes,
the
thatt City o
bet
eLtonflanuk: i:oisriw.lbo
.00

•
and L
earned Alember for Bath, and the Noble Lord the 1
itturitnbera^d for --4uraterland, that they unlit not maintain the
rlestroy the Church Establishment.—( Cries of
ITt• "' oh," from the Opposition benches.) He supposed they
?(die.thats.t.louse to represent the people of the Uni ca
atta,Theei'• Che people of the United Kingdom were n t
They to there wild and revolutionary doctrines.
sten Nvisl.ed to "see a steady course of improve-
did • adopted in Ireland and elsewhere, but they
et •riot wish to see amelioration attempted be the clumsy work
,hdestroying the Established Church.—( Hear, hear.) But
f 4,1.-,!. was a third party in that II ,use—the party of her
Zsty's Government. Ile believed that their policy was to
alietittain erstahlishra,nts= not to maintain their abuses ; hut to
j,,eityat:fctuhy nr.provina them ; and he believed that ,the ma-
fie people otPEngLind were with them on that point.
h was cert!,,n that they were not for the grant of 8,0001. ,
Ceh:a! ccalain that they were not for the destruction of the
of .rCu.' He believed that they would hest consult the feelings
tieeir tesnstituents, and the welfare of the country, by giving
"::4.4 negative to the motion of the Noble Lord, having for
tistatJeast nothing that was intelligible, nothing that was prac-
eemi e,. nothing that was even respectable enough to be called
`ii.utionary.—( Heir, hear. )
r• C. BULLER, who was scarcely audible in Coln-
p peing his address, said that before he addressed himself to the u4,,leet before the Hoare, he would advert to two doctrines
tiontch hall been thrown but in support of that novel applica-
heal:. of the doctrine of conspiracy, which had been brought to
Nit. against certain Members of that House; where, by
alistlhag, tether half of one Member's sentence and half of
spade er,
ember's sentence, a very formidable charge was
erst out of which neither Member was in fact guilty. The
greatt"htgc was that broached that evening ; and v‘i
the ,"-stonishment he saw the Noble Lord the Secretary for
ta klelonies take a note of it.—( Laughter.) On the
oafinisor.etihd,ofihtehye speech of Ins Hon. Friend the Member for
were charg,d with conspiring to repeal the Act
ast'ettleinent. The Noble Lor I himself (Lord Stanley) had
hee3,3, t spoken upon this sulject.---( Loud cries of " Hear,S
Ga.,' and laughter. ) They had only heard the views of the
)o,...seritnent expounded to them by the [lon, and Gallant
taruer for the county of Donegal, who, he mustsay,
laaa unnecessary pains to relieve himself from a very great
,oeatthant of odium under which he supposed himself to labour.
that Reside of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He could assure
the, .o• and Gallant Member that, however opposed to him
per:ninig be in politics, he believed there was no feeling of
ill, nal Itostilitv to him on the part of 11,11. Members gene-
tea?' on that side of the House.—( Hea a hear.) On the con-
trea3;' when he made inquiries among those Members who were
Nti°PPosed to him, they all said that he was a very worthy
haturientall, and he (Mr. C. Buller ) thought he seemed a very good
Ne Zeisd.aad kind-hearted man. —(Laughter and cheers.)
side of" the lion. Friend, and he supposed all of them on that
th 41. toe House that he had no feelings of hostility towards
ho'n, a !le retorted also to spoliation. He could assure the
to sa„ir.`o Gallant Gentleman that he had not the least wish
him.--( Laughter. ) He wished to relieve him of
4id I,ras.(Laughter.) He must say that that gentleman
ha,.
0: the straneest language he had ever heard. He said
tit I. •
ta•
ke
"Non meus hie sermo, sed quod precepit Ofellua,
Rusticus ab normis
anghter ) The Gallant Colonel said that they were go-
o ,13 a•
ea adivest him of his religion.—( Laughter. ) He would not
atai „such a cruel thing for the world.—( Great laughter.) /t
he 04deat thing he ever saw that religion of his, and
lieZ3 sure he did not wish to spoil him of it—(Continued
of iferer)--and if he might use a little variation, for the sake
iatait'ellun, he would observe that the Gallant Colonel seemed
Neae,' to take good care that they should not-4 Laughter )
GNI! ne thought one wAtd would dispel the alarms of Hon.
Tha, ernen opposite with regard to the Act of S. ettlement.
houi`eo4fetas intended to guard against the claims of the
dead b Stuart,6 and as all the members of that house were
'COL:: `lid not see what danger could exist in that quarter.
ee te,a—i and lauAter.)lThere was another charge to which
foen:stpartitularly refer, because he recollected its ?fficiericy in
(ileavr tien„
--the charge of alliance with Mr. Connell.—
,134 Lhear.) He ( alr C. Buller) would not flinch from
4r.trigarge---he had generally—almost invariably voted with
Nen upon all Irish questions except the repeal of the
voted ith lle Was not ashamed of having done so. He had
koehn him when his aid was useful to the Liberal party,
the ere.wnlild not shrink from his aid now that he was under
tht oelghtof a Government prosecution.—e( Loed cheers from
et.sition benches.) He would declare in that House
e had stated repeatedly elsewhere, that he believed no
tea-Arlan had done so reueli for his country as that. Hon. and
itideaned?..entiensan nierefore, viewing his policy on one
the Ponca of. "his opponents on the other, he was not
'464 o Carp P', every fault, or to run him down for every
tfllietieti°ll, hilt he stand by him now that he was under.
to r'ow', he was of opinion that the Irish question
rests,
- upon whi6ll it was worse than tr.eachery
'este,fteal their opinions on the grounds upon which they
the •If there really did-exist in the state of Ireland any
the 17 which was not to.be apprehended in any other part of
4 thnited kingdom,
he thdught the worst thing they could do
atter:air, uountry was to conceal it. It was in fact useless
it
tvosht," concealment—all the world knew ;the facts,. and it
knelt. ue folly to endeavour by air solemn muttering, or
'3/4'o feel' to gull the world into net believin in
she:alSence of a danger which they perceived themselves.
thet eit Was he thought the House would give him credit
the
—neerity and earnest conviction that induced himhto
414,4 and even if he might shock some gentleman by toudc
t„tePies which on ordinary occasions it was not pru en
Zlt, s' i,"88 in that House, the necessity of the case shoed he
Rat these' Another ground of excuse he thought should be
cloeseel were aware that the tone in which they spoke in that
,Ilthri was More in unison with the state of public feeling
,'sed to be. Theycou'd not disguise that the state of
t'oLesio,,,,eling and their own feeling, as shown by their
;use eat,° that;House, was different from what used;to be—that
'45 Wutte were aware that there was some mischief in
is.aPpliettate. which was not to be counteracted by temporary
taa„lculs of the old method of treatment, bot which must
,'t the "'erected forthwith it they meant to maintain the peace
stnpire. They knew that, and that it was an encreas-
;list;4", and that many ancient prejudices which used to
asheas were fast fading away, and that our countrymen,
beim, ave t the man who spoke the truth, would
Ray 'hther gralefulr%o o him and still more grateful to
t5ll. yer,r,s°4 who would suggest a remedy for the
th The evil which they had to deal with
let. e alleged disaffection of the Irish people. He was very
ktealbto have to use, in that House, words that had been
1-)rsoY gentlemen on the opposite side who represented the
!hat Party in Ireland. He need hardly say, lie was sure
in van ,_en he used those terms he totally repudiated the spirit
•e" they vver aplied. But still he felt it impossib.le to
isle that, in certain limited sense of the words, there existed
qti:teriand disaffection, not, indeed, to the Crown, but to the
Could and some of the institutions of the empire.
d. He
s
Wth rtts doubt it hen h looked to some o the cee n
latiste,a4,lsh People w
to thee language of thosef sons persons whoih gd
I,tterea, :,ht with them • and when he looked to the language of a v
• Nation) which, having been only started
.about
(tiger tir ago, had, within six months from that period,
da
aehan cations of tertsD
kt the indieu'a:tion than anpaper in Ireland—when he lo.oke
manifested by the public meetings,
teeeivehe compared thost-setrhin s with the private accounts he
Ihe edit ° m Individuals he could nut doubt that throughout
there
existed
part of the Roman' Catholic population of Ireland,
Mete h:lsted the greatest alienation from this country. In-
tv;trned I,.wait Was prepared to believe that fact. We had go-
'''uts of •e'and as if our object had been to alienate the affec-
he e, the R
—omen Catholic inhabitants of that country, and
/ft suprised atour having in a peat degree succeeded.
*a 411—'1 this t htl not without consideration, and
;144 intentionoigto Yexaggcrate. It - was a frightful
tug
to admit the existence of such a state of things
pytlnu•;ion of the people, to believe that one-fourth of the
a"ste.....4',en (4 the ern • as Roman Catholics of Ireland
aia4
ow re
hostilePitroe—the Government of England as the po-
lhaPulaptl; n' Poland was to the Government of Russia, and the
°1 Lornbd Austria. Was he not borne out in
• oy the the Government ? By what tenure
•qv , words of
h.,6531,1 g read Ireland ? Was it not the same tenure by which
`;wer o; ° Poland, and Austria held Lombardy, namely, the
j Putift • an Overwhelming military force ? If he was
,
a• be those matters, lie should have much pleasure
.e.„
Natee corrected. But he was not to be cor-
Le site TY. the mere expression of repugnance to
b.,7e g• But it was necessary for the Government. to
i„ ard with proofs of the good disposition of the Irish
e:trie‘Coader to sho th t h was wrong. In the meantime
ei-"antiusto e-,take the evidwencea of 'the facts that were before the
',1.4141 by hose facts
.he'could come to no other de,,,e.a.nAthat the alienation of the Irish people was not
con-
galeßas to deep
extensive, but also of a permanent nature. It
kik'le.on of religion and race.—( Hear, hear.) It
,ytitot.,testarltalTnation of Roman Catholic Ireland from
ltvithat England ; and it was evidently tending to-
ea Ng tied end to which the alienation of people
-eta. tinder the a.
Itlak:ricted. 'me Government must inevitably tend if not
aa. Atiati They said that the Irish were aiming at total
talsen' and the Irishpeople themselves avowedly asked for
et."elteitaratien from us .P Now, he must confess that when
greased at at the course that discontent was taking, he was
the as
Real and etm lieu it presented—the numbers—their
a. lee, eentrated zeal—their beingmarshal)ed under the
all 'llea, of
"'" o one man—their exhibition of the most
theeerganisation and of the greatest eligee4flitliet
asWere fe;tures that combined tot present a
than t in 03 peat,
He believed there was no Govern-
itn that :jrorld that possessed a more powerful machinery
itbstiientell was to be met with in Ireland, by the side of,
tail j °'con ie)* the regular Government. He believed that
takilnes of thl.ll exercised the most perfect control over. six
Sys °f that e°nntrxmen. The exertions of even an inert
had magnitude would be very dangerous, but
these
noe, pea a leader Mr. O'Connell, who wielded
lhetisti4e ribY an agency the most powerful
()'Qtll.--he did Y that means, and by the organisation of local
4051 11411 w• not exaggerate, surely, when he said that Mr.
toe, saa tlod ielded all that mass as though they had but one
ilana Ind Y' He told them when and whither they were to
d h 6 Still... 1,
Wnlen they were to be for action or inaction
atlaa: v always implicitly obeyed. To any think-
thely.'ll, the he most formidable feature in the aspect
Veat Pregerved"' People presented, was the. quietne:.s
Keyes
nao-1proro: They broke out into no partial riots, and the
,waitea tZatwo could not force them to appeal to arm-.
41, lb', riot to
te,ere as
if conscious of their strength, and detr-
ltst Proper nrow it away in any rash attempt, hut to strike
Nis tj,4 'I et then'entent, and with good effect. Therefore it was
ittoet lait, statern not disguise the fact from themselves. T.hat
the`e tato,' of things in Ireland. They had a reflecting
ah'iniengthY.w....!!l,ing for the moment when they could show
eie It was (Hear, hear.) Now, was that a state of things
atidt,renee? Ve and just to th,iir countrymen to conceal
Netd 'et, tees • as it not rather the wiser course to point out
, ttPaly o Mat:ers, with a view to seeing where they
aelir ttly site r,enriedy The policy of the Government was
Itotoessed eoeute• It was that of mere coercion. They had
theythey %Nee thee of the grievancea of Ireland. They had removed
ad give
thewsthe
in whom the people had confidence, and
I'aveZttY who n hole of the executive authority to that
Phylisd the tont the rest of the nation detested. They had
tneeee,aill the
with troops, and under the shield of that
koa a eta eY had seized the lands af the.people, and
aka vet, "te
.to penalties under a very questionable law,
te,.:.lteaoleted:Jaieateieas.ti,oenpraebslie
omnieyans. That was the policy which
4,41,4 the
Irish !,d to
prevent
the immediate movement, but it
ao Peo I any ulterior movement, by
ual e* But Peior by preventing all hope of
.future
ke,t. eelated at any rate it would be admitted, that it was
plat!istelh4as,peratir
theeor:ciliate the people ; on the contrary,,, it
and his belief was that, all the Govorn-
te e'a done had '
1;1 tlie aisting feel, been simply and greatly to exas-
tticteieki;i.m pii7itister
let
alltgrbs.' and he trusted it would be
O'Connell to prevent any out-
-BPos' • ,tleal em not deceive themselves with
the theta na ea that they had done anything to alter the
t
v would "f the Irish at
as g° on wth People. They might depend upon
e~!lee a Perfeet a an assurance of ultimate success, and
atlibisleciewnyt:eedehption of the plan they meant to Put.-
tbeantent,s Ile teh
adti dtheaskh
sthem
thing
for whitherth
their
rl
(tthhaet
Gw
oa_s
thirty With views—he wa
otng to anything of s sur.e he did not desire to charge
tioswallseeetiGsilu,PwPohr.t_t_their ptrheesenktinpdo,liwoyhen he said that the best
would be al immedia'e
nniwould, in all probability, be ultimately put
ejlsa.„ eertiaci
rttilieuntryea, did not mean to sa from the character
taesit had ttat the instant resistance was disarmed, and
thile thehe4nlidev_. obauegseun,,,tcheirugene_rous feelings would not step
t 9se abttie:ts that conZalssie ariel be altogether forgotten.
_ fat
Which could on would step in and sweep away
tas long now be so much better removed. Ile
Air. O'Connell led the Irish people,