The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-24 00:00:00

ist which had been confided to him, for the sake of a foolish !
oke. Ile would say that if he were in the position of the
Noble anti Learned Lord, and hal made a statement with
respect to mat'ers that had been confided to him.
which he thought fit to divulge, and that he would
In explanation make it appear that authority had been given
to him to act in the manner he had, he thought he should not
gain much credit by allowing him to subjected to any
lifong imputations. °The reasJn why h had given u these
Iltils was, becauie it had been so suggee‘ted by the hop n. and
Learned Member for Cork. He (Mr. O'Connell) well knew
that he had never, by any base or servile adulation,
committed himself in any way. He was well a.:!-
tluainted with the whole course of his political career since
he had entered Parliament, and that he would exercise
the fuir and legitimate use of his oan judgment upon all
ci,llestions connected with Ireland. He knew also that the
tast act of his public life was not to give in his adhesion to the
Principles which were promulgated from Conciliation-hall.
(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he might beat
liberty,
to ask whether he was to labour under the charge of
!laving committed a breach of confidence by way of a ,00lish
PA*, or was he to look down in slavish obedience to the dictum
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork ?

prepared to make no concession whatever. Having answered
all the questions, he thought he should now be but performing
his duty in moving that the House do go into Committee on
the Bill.
On the question that the Speaker leave the Chair,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he did not quite understand
the mode in which the professors were to be appointed, whether
the clause should be left open for the future consideration of
Parliament, or whether Government had determined on some
present mode of filling up these offices?
Sir J. GRAHAM was obliged to the Noble Lord for having
reminded him of this point. He thought it would be desirable
to leave the point open until perhaps 1848, with the view of
3acaring the opinion of Parliament after they should have had
experience to guide them on the subject. He would read the
10th clause of the Bill if the House would allow him, and he
thought it would be sufficient to satisfy the inquiry of the Noble
Iserd.—( The Right Hon. Baronet then read the clause re-
ferred to.)
t'iscoont MAHON then rose to bring forward the motion
of which he had given notice, that in the establishment of
colleges in Ireland, provision should be made for the religious
instruction of the pupils, by means of lecture fees, till such
time as private benefactions for that object may have taken
effact. He admitted the integrity of the motives by which the
present measure had been actuated, hut believed that the in-
trodection of spiritual and secular education should be simul-
taneous, and that without this no system of education whatever
would be valuable or efficacious.—( Hear, hear.) In the 15th
cause, it was provided that any person might bequeath land for
securing the benefit of religions instruction in the institution, and
Clause C and its amendments effected similar contingent
provisions ; but how could any reliance be placed
upon such an uncertainty, or how could the House
say that any bequests would be made for those purposes ? The
deeendence on contingencies of private capital was not such a
basis as this mess-ire ought to rest on.--( Hear ) If it could,
however, be even proved that these anticipations would ever
tike place, he tor one should still object to the precedent of thus
endowinse colleges, as it might subsequently be applied to locali-
ties or circumstances where no su'h contingency existed. In
what way must the student receive the advice of hit tutor ?
"Astronomy is of great importance; there is a skilful pro-
fessor, attend his lectures, and acquire a knowledge of the
science. Mathematics also must be carefully learned; and
medicine, too, for which there is another skilful professor ; but
as to religion, learn it anywhere, or nowhere, or not at all."
That may not be the meaning intended by the House,
but it was that which the pupils would universally
and naturally put upon the system. By the 15th clause no
student was compelled to at end any theological lectures or re-
-1 gious instruction. To such a provision he unequivocally ob-
jested, and though the amendment brought forward in a good
spirit would go far to remove the objection, that was no reason
why the Government or the House should not go further. On
a former occasion it had been stated by his Right Hon Friend
at the head of the Government, that even religious difference,
would prevent religious education being sanctioned by any Act
of the State. There could be no doubt that it must be
a great advantage for students to have the opportunity of
acquiring secular learning with all the splendid discoveries of
science and art, but as far as religious instruction was con-
cerned the pupils would be left totally unprovided for, and re-
moved entirely from the cautious superintendence of parental
care, exposed to the inculcation of any strange doctrine.
With reference to that part of the subject he would call the
attention of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern-
ment to a letter which he had received from Dr. Cahill, in
which he pointed out, not by mere guess, but from positive re-
ferences, that it was very usual for professors, elen when
talking on abstract subjects, to indulge themselves in remarks
which had a decidedly religious tendency. The inference he
would draw from this was that the advantages to be derived
from secular learning were not to be diminished, but that the
pupil, in conjunction with these benefits, should have
every opportunity of enjoying religious instruction.
The Right Hon. the Secretary of State had contended that
the system of policy now proposed was founded on the same
principles as those on which the National schools of Ireland
were based. He had heard that statement with great surprise
from a Minister so well acquainted with Irish affairs as his
Right Hon. Friend. Setting aside the consideration whether
the system had worked well or ill, advantageously or adversely.
it was certain that, notwithstanding no regular general system
of religious instruction was professedly taught, a portion of re-
ligious education was insisted on and taught in those schools.
In showing the design and intention of the National schools of
Ireland, he could not find words that would batter illustrate
that than those which were used by the Minister at the head of
affairs, when that measure was first proposed in another place.
Earl Grey, on the 22d of March, 1832, stated that, if they were
to have a system of National education for Ireland, it must not
exclu.le the Roman Catholics. who constituted the great part of
the population of Ireland. To meet this difficulty, he (Lord
Grey) said, though the indiscriminate use of the Bible would
not be permitted, instead of that, on certain days of the week,
in addition to literary instruction, extracts from the Bible, in
which all parties were agreed, would be used as a school-book.
It could net, therefore, be said that Earl Grey excluded the
Bible. That Noble Lord's description of the National system
was, that it.' was to be a system of education of which reli-
gon should necessarily form a part.--( Hear, hear.)
If he (Lord NI, hon ) were to state his views of a system of educa-
tion not for England, for Scotland, or for Ireland, but adapted
for all countries and all ages, he could not better express him-
self than in the language of a Noble Lord (Lord Stanley),
not when he introduced this measure into that Home, but
when speaking on it at a later period—namely. on the 14th of
June, 1839. He (Lord Stanley) said he was not contending
for absolute control over the direction of education, hut only
for the principle that education, whether applied to Dissenters
or the Church, was not a thing apart from religion, but a
thing in which religion must he made not only a part but the
foundation. He ( Lord Mahon) in agreement velth those senti-
ments, would sly that religion must form a necessary part of
every well regulated system of education. Could this be called
a new opinion? tiad it not bean held by the most
eminent men that secular should be blended with
spiritual education, by such men as Pascal, Fen elon,
Wesley, and Hooker. If the importance of religious
instruction was felt as essential in State education, was there
anything pecul ar an the state of Ireland to forbid its applica-
tion? When the country was Protestant, there would be
no difficulty in applying it. but. in Ireland he thought
it would net answer. If provisions had been made
by the State in this Bill for nro'essors of different
religious denominations, he would certainly have op-
posed it.--( Hear hear.) He weuld now state fully and ex-
plicitly the views which he intended to recommend to the
adoption of the House. He thought that there ought to be in
each college a professor of theology, according to the doctrines
of the Established and the Roman Catholic Churches, and in
the college of Belfast a Presbyterian professor It had been
correctly stated by the Right Hon. Baronet that evening, that
if the professorships were sanctioned by the State, then the
State was hound to endow them, but he ( Viscount Mahon) did
not require this endowment. He would afterwards explain
how it was he proposed to support them. He proposed that the
appointment of the Established Church professor should rest
with the Bishop of the Established Church, the Roman Catho-
lic professor with the Bishop of that Church, and the Presby-
terian professor by the General Assembly. He should pro-
pose as a general rule that the students should study under and
be examined by one of these professors, but in many cases
he should allow exemptions. In the first place, he
should propose that exemptions should be granted
to every class of Separatists ; end there were particular ex-
emptions which might be regulated by the heads of the diffe-
rent seminaries. The amount of lecture..fee might be stated
by the Board of Visitors, and if they would suppose a hundred
pupils, at perhaps two-and-a-half guineas per annum—a suffi-
cient provision would be made for the maintenance of the lec-
turers. He did no' doubt that even with these limited means
they would be enabled, even at the outset, to secure the sere
vices of highly-gifted men—men of the highest character as
professors. Looking to what they saw daily in the public
offices, where young men of talent and education entered for
an inadequate salary of perhaps lOW. a year, in the hope that
a future period would find them more adequately provided for.
Looking to this fact he could riot but think that persons could
be found equally ready to undertake the duty he referred to till
such time as the means could be provided fur more adequately
remunerating them. He did not think that it would be ne-
cessary fur him to enter more into detail, and he begged the
Houos to remember that however much they might wish to
conciliate Ireland, a good and sound religious education was the
best boon they could confer upon the people.
Mr. WYSE rose to second the motion of his Noble Friend.
He was strongly impressed with the conviction that education,
to deserve the name, must be based upon religion and mora-
lity. They had established colleges, and he thought they
should also have established professorships of theology in them.
He was anxious that there should be chairs in those colleges for
religious instructions, and he did not mean theological. But
he thought that the endowment of those chairs should be de-
rived from the communities for whose advantage they were in-
tended. He was so far in favour of the voluntary principle,
that he should support the proposition for defraying the charges
of those professorships by means of fees from the pupils whose
parents wished them to avail themselves of the instruction,
whether Roman Catholic or Protestant. At the same time,
he must declare his belief that if there were not such
professorships, the religious education of the Catholic
youth in the universities would not be neglected. For he
knew too well the untiring zeal of that venerable body the
Catholic clergy to doubt that they would watch over the
youth of their church —( Hear.) But, in order to prevent an
hiatus in the establishment of the colleges themselves, he
was willing to adopt the proposition of his Noble Friend, and
agree to the appointment of religious professors to he paid by
fees from the pupils. By such a course State endowment
would be avoided, and religious instruction would be provided
for ; and he would rejoice if that plan received the general
concurrence of the House.—(Hear.) Indeed the Bill of the
Right Hon. Baronet did not, from the first, exclude religious
instruction, but left room for its provision, otherwise he snould
have been unwilling to vote fair a measure which contemplated
nn means of providing f r religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.)
But he would not concur in the objections that had been made in
a querter for which he had the most profound veneration, to the
appointment of teachers of geology and anatomy —( Hear.)
He always deferred with humility to the opinions of that dis-
tinguis,ed body of men—the Catholic Bishops of Ireland ; but
with all deference, he thought that it their objections were to
be carries out, it would apply equally to the teachers of astrn-
nomy, of geography, ti hi.tory, and all rudimental instruction
—( Hear, hear)—so that there would be no such thing as
mixed education at all.—( Hear, hear.) An Hon. Member,
now behind him Cllr. J O'Connell) had attacked him in his
absence in Conciliation-hall —( Hear, hear)—for the views
he had expressed upon the subject, and had stated that he was
returned to Parliament as a Catholic, but had ceased to be one,
thereby implying that he was to lose his seat for the course
which he had taken.—(" No, no," from Mr. J. O'Connell.)
But he' w old tell the Hon. Gentleman that he was not his
(;Mr. Wyse's) Pope.—(Cheers.) He would ask, why was the
objection to Protestant teachers of philosophy in Trinity Col-
lege objected to by the Catholic prelates? Why had they never
objected to Catholic youths being taught the sciences in that Col-
lege by Protestant professors ? Why had they never objected to
Protestant teachers in all the medical schools ?—( Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman then referred to extracts from the
speech of Mr. John O'Connell, and read extracts from the
speech which gave occasion to the attack, contending that he
had been misrepresented, and especially. in the allegation that
he hod eulogised a Prussian system of education, which ex-
cluded religious instruction He begged leave to tell the Hon.
Member
nan re would
indulgence b e shown r
theopinions
more Christianity
of
o th
ea
insd,
more Catholicity
dAe
dn y
amidstth i ng
a rthanian denouncinghee
r.. 11) Tr
h. Wyseeii
on o. f
GWeant
tel re fmo radn asconcluded
oanne
addloud cheers, r
ess
o bv r e
tthee sat
udg
,i n
tasn
of extract from
Trinity
ro c
ee
gße i sohno p t
hoef Down's
subject
of tolerating the opinions of others, which extract, the Hon.
111-ember said, ought to be written in letters of gold.
sayMar.feJw. O'woCrOdsNuNpEonL L hothemped attetrh,einllowuhsiechwoueld ahadllobweehnimpetro.
sonally alluded to. He would not then go into the general
question, as he supposed that the Right Hon. Baronet would
give the House at least thirty-six hours to consider his amend-
ments. If that were not the case, he would state his opinion
of the amendments at a later hour of the night. He did not
think the Hon. Member for Waterford had a right to complain
of his (31r. John O'Connell's) observations as having been
made in his absence. He had been required by his constituents
to attend in Conciliation-hall, and so had the Hon. Gentleman.
He (Mr. O'Connell) acted upon the instructions of his con-
stituents, and not being able to attend in the House, he com-
mented on the speech of the Hon. Gentleman in Conciliation-
hall, where he was obliged to be.—(Great laughter.) He
thought that in his speech he had modified the language of
which the Hon. Gentleman complained; but the newspaper
report might be correct: for if the Honse knew all the business
that was done in Conciliation-hall—(Great laughter)—they

SPANISH COLONIAL SUGAR.
Ur. LABOUCHERE wished to put a question to the
4,ght Hon. Gentleman opposite with reference to the claims
advanced bs Spain tor the admission of her colonial -ugar into
lhe ports of this country. He w:she•i to know if any arrange-
'tent had been come to with that country in reference to this
subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHTZQUER said, that
not knowing that the Right Honourable Gentleman would have
Pot the question, he was not prepared at that moment to
aNwer it
Mr. LABOUCHERE then gave notice of his intention to
4,k the quP-ti .n on a future day.
P )OR-LAW SETTLEMENTS RILL.
Mr. S. CR AWF(NID wished to know if it we intended
t° Pass the Poor-law Settlements Bill through the House this
session?

fir J.
G 3A HAM said, that as there was a great contrariety
r. opinion on the subject of the law of settlement, it was not
,IT" intention to press that part of the measure at that time,
rt it might be expedient if the House w.,tuld permit the Bill
tli.be read a second time in the amended form. He d d not
sot
there could he any objection to this course, for he was
"'H. aware that any opposition would be shown to that portion
tho Bill which related to the law of removal.

thIIRELIEF TO IRELAND.
,Alr. E. B. ROCHE said it might be in the recollection of
it)" Rieit Hon. Baronet that he (Mr. Roche) had in the
:ginning of the session asked him •slieth;_>r before its close he
;'°uld bring in two measures for Ir::.dand, one for a reform in
the
Municipal Reform Act, and another br the extension of
e franchise. At this late period h.; did not think it out of
Place to again inquire whether it was the R'ght Hon. Baronet's
14tetition to bring these measures forward ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the state of Ireland had
receive,{ in a very considerable degree the attention of the
Irnmeun Go-
nt. One important measure had already passed that
use, and another was under the consideration of the other
buGuse of Parliament—he meant the Landlords and Tenants
Bill.

IRISH COLLEGES BILL.
Itfr. JOHN O'CONNELL presented a great number of
Petitions against the Irish Colleges Bill, signed together by
11Pwards of 144,000 persons : among them one from Dublin,
bhich alone was signed by between 50,000 end 60,000 persons.
M. ROSS presented a petition from Belfast, very nume-
-v?,ly signed, in favour of the 13:11, and stating the satisfaction
e petitioners experienced from the equality with which all
.eels were to be treated.
Mr. WYSE resented a petition from several distinguished
Inhabitants of Dublin in favour of the Irish Colleges Bill.
,' led
J. O'CONNELL was sorry that his sere of duty coin-
him to ohj.ct to the reception of the petition.
The SPEAKER interrupted the Hon. Member by
l re-
a. h •
• ing im t at it was out of order to enter into a discus-
-Inn on the presentation of a petition.
Air J. O'CONNELL merely wished to enter his protest
Ras
a petition which, without any offence, he must declare
vas drawn up and presented under false pretences. lie denied
nat it represented the feelings of this inhabitants of Dublin
generally or any but an unimportant and comparatively insig-
-14i6
cant portion. Several names had been obtained to it under
4.1' impression that the petition condemned the principle, hut
‘PP roved the motives that actuated the measure ; and one
in particular had, after signing, expressed his gnu,de-
tination of withdrawing his name. For these reasons,
erofore, he felt justified in protesting against the petition.
I%ir. WYSE rose to reply, but
The
SPEAKER intimated that such a course was out of
Cr,d and that the petition had been received.
k,tfir J. GRAHAM presented a petition from the professors
students of the Belfast Institution in favour of the Irish
"lieges Bill.
the Sir R. PEEL presented a petition from a large number of
:citizens of London, including fifty barristers, against the in-
:duction of theology in academical institutions generally,
Tin favour of the Irish Colleges Bill. Also a petition from
~!.literary institutions of Beltast in favour of the system.
444:15i
petition was signed by persons of different religious per-

(
TION IRELAND).
Sir JAMES ACADEMICAL
GRAHAM EDUCtheAn rose and said, that con-
peeted with the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair to
It: into Committee on this Bill, there were some matters which
Wag-desirous of explaining.. Questions had been put to him by
te'"io !'n• Members connected with this measure, which with the per-
nof the House he would answer. He would now endeavour
tf"°4l everything in the shape of argument, reserving that for
nietion of which his Hon. Friend the Member tor Yar-
h,"ith had givese notice. He wished to answer a question put
sp"' n's Hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, with refer-
jp.,ce to the class of persons for whose benefit the measure was
17'ended. The Houle wo ild recollect that, upen the second
04`i'ng of the Bill, he stated to the House that his colleagues
ti4e of opinion that, considering the great spread of educe-
or'n among the humbler clan es in Ireland, 400,000
ti
'n ', hom were now receiving education under the na-
zi.
`,'l education system, and 100,000 under the Cho-
s;i_de Societies, and considering the means of education
11_4'cil the Dublin Univers ty afforded for the higher classes,
ktrtheught ;t was requisite that some provision should be wade
14 the instruction of the middle classes. The inh.bi-
:4' of the great towns and cities of Ireland. Cork,
„Ll'erford, Kilkenny, and Belfast, were without any
elaslns of collegiate education ; and for the mtddle
4,1'1, the present collegiate education in Dublin was too
esiletue and expensive. The education provided by these
Stet ges would be equal to that in the Scottish Universities,
b, not inferior to that of Trinity College, Dublin. He would
de
14tti1l°ing the measure an injustice if he said it was in any
ee of an exclusive character—it was as open to the
er as it was to the middle classes, and would, he expected,
licaj'er'ePtable to most of them. A question of a more prac•
),1e
character had been put to him by the Noble Lord, the
pr
cheer for the City of London, regarding the appropriation
In 6 to money voted. With respect to the 30,000/. for build-
by he the colleges, he must say that he did riot consider the sum
14,,,a,ny means exorbitant—it would be impossible to erect
isfilit.at a less cost. At the same time, he believed that sum
be sufficient. He proposed to appropriate the sum of
they l• a year to each of the institutions. In each college
I,l.:,eontemplated the appointments of President and Vice-
per dent—the maximum of President to be a salary of 70 L
eO.i:nrtliTn—the maximum of Vice- i'resident, 5001. In each
irithee there would be from twelve to fourteen professors,
lite
'ea salary of not less than 200/. nor more than 3001. a year.
tteh college there would be a librarian of 2001. a year; a
Iservants,
100/. • 3OO/. Ascrinomical and other
teas cite. instruments, as well as a library, would be ne.
tpirY. for which 2,0001. a year would be allowed. He
, •
kipa;', Propose that in the first year there should be an exa-
trp,doon of those pupils who were in their first year. In the se-
th,s Year he thought there should be public examinations for
Nre the first year and of the second. He would in that
thsti!).topose premiums of from 20/.exhibitions in
ethikYsl year of not less than 30/. for twenty students.
The
lipthl;itions in the third year may vary, if it seemed to be de.
spul'ile, from 2 /. to 30/., or to 4"/. That brought him to
he
-Bever Point, on which a ques'ion was asked of him, not, he
theied, by the Noble Lord the Member for London. but by
that Member for Dumfries, a point to which he knew
the great importance would attach, and in reference to which
'Alember for the county of Limerick would address
ti tt,ednuse. In opening to the House the reasons which in.
Arose her Majesty's Government to propose this Bill in its
l'Pirj;,lt, form, he stated specifically that, consistent with the
1"Isj ,3,.'es on which it was founded, it was not possible for her
td'Y's Government to propose that any religious test should
pernrinistered either to the governing bsdy, the studeots! or
,e sp,„,s,nns connected with these colleges. To that principle
steadily adhere. At the same time he was bound to
that at might be found that ample precaution was
elle ce
c' ured by the statute against professors lecturing in these
s, abusing their power of giving instruction, and seek-
Itilo,l° undermine the religious doctrines of those students to
.4'nrit the) administered secular instruction. He knew no
;ter which they could devise. He must say that when-
tlept-l'ien State endowed, the Crown had generally the power
,toees, ation. It had the power of nominating the Regius
jhett f")," in the English colleges. So the rule was that
l''ss,,"" State endowed the Crown nominated. He was not,
b.verw, Prepared to say that with respect to the first nomina-
c en ft was necessary to give the first movement to
row,, machine, it was iodispencable that the advisers of the
el teto'h,o,uld be responsible for their nomination. With re-
. xtfetio,, tne professors, he was not prepared to limit their
according to the desires of those on the opposite side.
tne measure should have been in operation for three
then ,
••ut " loose appointments should be regulated by Parlia-
-1"141;ii This rule would be admitted to be absolutely necessary
Was remembered that the,e colleges could not spring
ii.rittplnagic, or could not be brought into effi,ient working
'test
it ore the lapse of considerable time ; therefore it had
I.:l'"rned necessary that those appointments should be re-
t'e 'Zed. and renewed after the lepse of three years, and in
roQrP"'time everything that could be devised to facilitate the
lhoss ,
isitt tnose colleges to something like perfection,
mottee done. It might be asked, why not limit the period
!guar? He had already said that it could not be possible
th colleges could be in active operation by that time,
Riat it would be advisable not to renew those arrangeme.its
time as the colleges could be included under one
vlet,tY---( Hear, hear)—in which the pupils should be
den- take cut degrees in the law, and the arts and sciences.
I hear.) There would also be examiners attached to
5,411, tsdversity ; but before that university could be
the an application should he made to Parliament,
th-tl t(3, appointments in it should vest in the Crown.
tbt Po,,"Plily the ulterior arrangements of the university to
sesk:ultition, it would appear to him the natural way that
nitplt.iners and heads of colleges should have a power of
ip tts„)Ving to the Crown the professor whom they thought
-'ned, with the power to the Crown of a veto upon all
spirp.i'eUrnmendations. Now, there had seemed to be a general
t):904 the House that the control of the moral education of
jptrip
111 sent to the Colleges had not been sufficiently provided
listetulpe,Bills. To remedy that defect, classes had been
11 Oct -eu Which he believed would be acknowledged to be
tot With Youths sent to those colleges should either be resi
1/4,,,ctedn't their parents or guardians, or resident with persons
111:Ptlip„1?Y their parent, or they should be congregated in
1p cqrnnuses or halls, under the control of the head of
itklttlis,„''ge'• When the pupils resided with their parents or
!set iiseestno other control over their moral and religousedueation
ittlNte and nothing could be worse than the inter-
tetne Government in such casts. ( Hear, hear.) But
thltfe4euuents did not reside with their parents it would be
qdlis,.(lY that the persons selected should be approved of by
hentss of the colleges. The houses, therefore, in which
the ksp inot resident with their parents should be placed were
'res.ciii'ettetr'ences, and the heads of the colleges were to have
"ttvast
eof revoking those licences, if they disapproved of the
11)0114,°` the persons holding them. With resliect to the
,'"eilt of the perfect facilities would be given to
‘llO, Of Works tomake'padvances for the building of those
Nit ei,ilinod they would be governed by rules enacted by
tR of t,s,• The power also of appointing the linnet-
;'ks `tie halls would be vested in the visitors.
tql,pc,i,-ciPsed that the heads of these establishments should
es
of ttie)d by those who possessed the confidence of the large
p, e different religious persuasions. There remained
41 44,e Itlestion to answer, and that was one of some 1m-
:it:I:I:her) rWhieh was put by the Right Honourable the
;YJsr War Dungarvon who asked if the Government
46:,',.,('Ilerred to appoint' religious professors, and to make
tilsOes;e Part of the education in these seminaries ?
1:e 414 'lnlent had given the question their best considera-
kAp the
‘ecee of Y yiere of opinion that, ins uch a case, the per-
Y opn religious worshiwitin the college, they were de--
r°se'l to.--( Hear, hear.) On that point they were

.."

-r

tould not wonder if gentlemen were sometimes unable to say
all that they intended.—( Hear, hear.) He, however, was not
reported to say that the Hon. Member for Waterford was a
Protestant, but that he was very near one—(Hear, hear, and
laughter)—at all events, that in his opposition to his bishops
upon a religious question, he was a schismatic Catholic.—.
( Cries of " (A, oh.' ) It was not a Catholic act to appeal
to the House cf Commons against the authority of his
bishops—it was practical rebellion.—( Renewed cries of " Oh.")
He ( Mr. Wyse) spoke of the demands of the Bishops as
petty and insignificant. These were the declarations of the
Roman Catholia Bishops, which he (Mr. J. O'Connell) be-
lieved to be supreme authority in Ireland, controllable only
by the Sovereign in Council, that this Act was dangerous to
the Roman Catholic people in Ireland ; and that there were
certain terms which could alone render such a Bill at all safe.
They had declared that ; and they had further declared, in
an interview with the Lord Lieutenant in Ireland, that these
were demands less than which they could not ask. He (Mr.
O'Connell) submitted to them, as in duty bound • he ad-
vanced no other objection ; and if the Honourable Gentleman
called that objection petty and insignificant, he could only tell
him that he was not abusing him, but the Roman Catholic Bishops.
He also praised the law in Prussia, in 1819, dist a priest
should not administer communion to the children at the public
schools. Nobody could deny that that was a gross infraction of
ecclesiastical right. They were ready to secure for the Pro-
testants and Presbyterians their colleges, and all they asked was
to be treated in the same way. He would ask them not to
force down the throats of the Irish Roman Catholics a system
which was revolting to their conscience, and which would
bring the utmost confusion, strife, and discord, in that country.
It would more strongly unite the people in the desire for their
own Parliament, and in the wi4i not to allow theorists
to talk away their religious feelings, and would by no
means tend to put down the rep ial agitation. He would
tell the Hon. Member that if the Bill passed into law, instead
of causing conciliation in Ireland, it would cause utter con-
fusic n and would increase the determination of the Irish people
not to be mislegislated fur by the English representatives, or those
calling themselves the representatives of the people of Ireland.
The Hon. Member said that he ( Ale. J. O'Connell) wanted to
renew religious feuds in Ireland, by calling on the peo, le of
Waterford to ask him to resign his seat in Parliament, as he
was not representing his constituents. He thought that it was
most unfair to impute to him that which he abhorred in his
soul, namely, the idea of renewing religious feuds in Ireland.
His words were misrepresented. He called upon the Catholic
electors of Waterford to take notice that he was not represent-
ing them as Roman Catholics. They were inclined to be led
by their bishops, and the Hon. Member for Waterford was ex-
claiming against them, and consequently he was not repre-
senting them as Roman Catholics. It was on that account
that he asked them to call upon him to resign, or nut to elect
him after next election.
Mr. WYSE then explained, and read the report of the words
of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, as contained in
the columns of the Nation newspaper.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM felt confident that he expressed
the opinion of the great mtjority of the House when he de-
clared his strong impression that that was not the place to
discuss what degree of submission Catholic gentlemen owed to
their ecclesiastical superiors. It must be very painful to the
House to hear some observations which had fallen from the
Honourable Member who hail just sat down. The Honourable
Member for Waterford was not bound in explicit obedience to
the opinion of the Bishops in his representative capacity. He
was at liberty to express his own judgment on a matter whi h
was not considered spiritual but temporal. He ( Sir James
Graham) felt that he must also state what he considered to be
due to the Hon. Member for Waterford, namely that he had
not been guilty of any deception whatever towards his consti-
tuents. His religious opinions and his religious practice,
whatever they might be, were known to that constituency. So
much for his orthodox catholicity, and as far as his political
opinions went to his honour be it spoken, he waa a friend to Bri-
tish connexion as founded by the legislative union. He invariably
declared that opinion to the electors of Waterford, who all
knew his religious and political feelings. He therefore prac-
tised' no deception. He had discharged his duty to his consti-
tuency in the most honourable manner, and he (Sir J. Graham)
would despair of the welfare of Ireland, if the people of Ireland
held a different opinion. He attached the greatest importance
to the strict observance of the rules of the House, and the ex-
perience of every year taught him more and more their value
and importance. His Noble Friend must excuse him when he
would say, that while he (Lord Mahon) adhered to those rules
he had most decidedly violated their principles. The rule was,
that it was not competent for any Member to move any instruc-
tion to a Committee on a provision which, without instruc-
tion, it shall be competent for that Committee to make. The
spirit of the motion now made was nothing more nor less than
an instruction, and if it was it was grossly irregular. This de-
parture from the rule of the House had involved them in ex-
treme difficulties, to the disadvantage of the measure now be-
fore them. His Noble Friend should have introduced his plan
as a clause in the measure. Now that they were compelled to
discuss the motion of his Noble Friend, he must express his
surprise that the Hon. Member for Waterford seconded it.
Its object was the appointment of theological professors,
and in seconding it the Hon. Member for Waterford stated
that he had insuperable objections to that. After hearing his
Noble Friend's speech, he was still in doubt whether the object
of the motion was to have these professors paid voluntarily or
not. He, however, collected from the speech of his Noble
Friend that the Roman Catholic professors were to be nomi-
nated by the Roman Catholic bishops, and the Protestant pro-
fessors by the Protestant bishops, and the Presbyterian pro-
fessors by the Presbyterians. Was that rule to be confined to the
orthodox Presbyterians ? Were not the Unitarian Presbyterians
of the North of Ireland entitled to it also? The Hon. Member
for Waterford stated that religious instruction was excluded ;
but any gentleman. looking to the 15th clause of the Bill,
would see, that so far from religious instruction being excluded,
every encouragement was given to the propagation of religious
doctrines. Considering ehat the principles of the Bill were,
he could not see how the motion of his Noble Friend could be
listened to. Religions instruction ought not, in his ( Sir J.
Graham's) opinion, to be given within the walls of the colleges
while all facilities could he had for affording it without the walls.
It had been said also that it was the intention of the Govern-
ment not to bear in mind, in selecting the ecclesiastical instruc-
tors, the ecclesiastical authorities of the district; but again he
should remind Hon. Members that there was to be no ecclesiastical
instruction within the walls of the colleges. The Hon. Member
for Waterford had said that he, a Roman Catholic, had been
educated in Trinity College, Dublin. Well, then, he ( Sir J.
Graham) need not remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that there
was no religious instruction given to Roman Catholics within
the walls of that institution. There were a great many Roman
Catholics educated within its walls, who received their
ecclesiastical education without, and therefore be could not see
why the same principle should not be applied to the new col-
leges.—(Hear, hear.) He conceived then upon the whole
that the general principles in the new Bill afforded a far better
principle of arrangement. Need he instance the educational
institutions of Scotland, where religious instruction was not
required to be given within the walls. In those institutions
the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic mixed and received alike
the same secular educational instruction, but religious instruc-
tion was given to no class of Christians in those colleges. In
further proof of this he held in his hand a letter which he
had recently received from a gentleman, a Roman Catholic and
member of the town council of the city of Edinburgh, by which
it appeared that by virtue of their charter a large number of the
town council of Edinburgh were members of the Edinburgh
University. The writer went en to state that he was opposed
to a proposition which had been introduced at the University,
having for its object religious instruction within
its walls—the question was put to the vote and was
negatived by a majority of the town council,
and, therefore, it was decided upon that religious instruction
should continue to be given as before without the want of that
University.—( Hear, hear.) He would not weary the House
by entering further into details, but he would beg leave
to be permitted to read an extract from the evidence
given before a Committee of that How by Dr. Crolley,
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Ireland, in reference to
the system of national education introduced into Ireland.
The evidence had reference to the rules enforced in the system
of education pursued in the Belfast Educational Institution.
The Right Honourable Baronet then read the extract, the sub-
stance of which was to the effect, that he (Dr. Crolly) had no
objection whatever to Roman Catholics intended for Maynooth
receiving their initiatory education at the Belfast Adademical
Institution. Nor did he conceive that. any danger could arise
to Roman Catholic students mixing with students of
other persuasions, so long as they were under the
control of proper masters. This he ( Sir James
Graham) conceived was sufficient to show that the
Roman Catholic Bishops of Ireland had no objection to such a
system of education as that adopted in the Belfast Academical
Institution, His Noble Friend (Lord Mahon) had alluded to
the system of national education in Ireland, as introduced by
Lord Stanley. Now he (Sir James Graham) begged to say,
from the first introduction of that measure, he had beer. a
warm and sincere advocate of that measure, and he should
say he felt bound to add, that that system, which compre-
hended what he might call a combined system of education,
might have been most successfully carried out in that country,
but for the Protestant hierarchy and parochial clergy, who
offered it from the commencement the most determined
opposition.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But so far from
that opposition having. affected the success of the measure,
he ( Sir J. Graham) believed he could not give a better in-
stance of its popularity than the feet that four hundred thou-
sand children were receiving in that country a good general
moral education, under that system—a fact which, he believed,
was not exceeded by any other country, whether Roman
Catholic or Protestant.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted, also,
to observe that the Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse)
had fallen into the mistake of believing that scriptural extracts
were read in the school-books of the national schools during
school hours ; but he (Sir J. Graham) begged to correct that
mistake, and to state that it was after school hours that every
facility was given for religious instruction.—( Hear, hear. )
A system of combined religious education in Ireland was un-
fortunately impossible. 'l'he great majority of the people of
that country were believers in Christianity ; but still it was of
vast importance that there should be a combined national
system of secular education established, as a similar
system, combining religion, would be impossible, inasmuch as
such a system, under existing circumstances, would tend rather
to foster than soften down religious animosities.—( Cheers. )
Lord MA110:1 explained. He had drawn this clause in
strict conformity with the precedent established by General
Gascoigne upon going into Committee on the Reform Bill.
Lord CLIVE, after addressing himself to the difficulty of
bringing clauses under the consideration of the House upon a
Bitl of this description, defended the clause introduced by the
Noble Lord the Member for Hertford. He thought the Noble
Lord had exercised a sound Judgment in bringing forward this
question on principle.
Mr. M. MILNES said it was painful to find that the hie-
rarchy of the Catholic religion were coming forward to oppose
a large and liberal measure like the present. He believed that
the Catholic religion might be made the nurse of religious free-
dom ; but this opposition of the Catholic hierarchy would lead
a person to believe that their object was to crush everything
like religious liberty. Upon this ground, he felt called upon
to oppose the motion of his Noble Friend the Member for
Hertford.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL explained.
Mr. 13. ESCOTT thought the opposition to the measure had
been as useless as it would be nugatory. The Hon. Member
for Somersetsbire, who alone had objected to it, on the ground
that Ireland needed no education, had been very satisfactorily
answered by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department. The only remaining objection was that
propunded by the Hon. Members for Oxford and Newcastle-
under-Lyrae, that it was " a gigantic scheme of Godless edits
cation," and that religion was eschewed in its principles.
Mr. COLQ LJHOUN—I beg your pardon, I have expressed
no opinion.
Mr. ESCOTT had misapprehended the course pursued by
the Hon. Gentleman ; but at all events the Honourable
:Members for Oxford and Newark had based their oppo-
sition on those grounds. But he (Mr. Escott) de-
fended it, because it was essentially religious—( A
laugh)—and because lie thought that the only chance
of promoting true religion was by excluding sectarian
differences.—( Hear.) The measure was calculated to allay
those differences, and pave the way for an extensive and effi-
cient system of sound religious instruction, and the reason that
all previous attempts had proved abortive, was that they were
not bold enough tsi propose a measure so enlarged and compre-
hensive. When it was said that religion was the chief ob-
stacle to the pacification of Ireland, the very strongest argu-
ment was used in favour of a measure which supplied the defi-
ciency and avoided the obstacle and impediment to all efficient
education in Ireland.—( Hear.) When he heard Hon. Members
denominating this a Godless scheme of education, it put him in
mind of the history he had heard not long ago, of a worthy
man of good intentions, who kept a school in a country village,

a man of unimpeached character, and of whore nothing but
good was spoken. All at once a very grave accusation—it was
said he was guilty of a very cruel act, that in the depth of the
severe winter he had refused his pupils the use of fire.
A strict investigation was instituted, and what
was the result ? Why, that this excellent
pedagogue had denied the use of squibs and crackers, and be-
cause he prevented them from singeing their coats, he was
accused of the enormous barbarity of denying a little warmth
to his perishing pupls.—(Laughter.) Such appeared to him
to be the kind of accusation brought against the Government
for not allowing the feelings of polemical animosity to prevent
the improvement of the people. —( Hear, hear.) Not only
was this a religious measure, but that man was above the re:i-
gious man who would do acts of mercy and justice to the Irish.
It had been said that the measure was not palatable to the Ca-
tholic prelates. If they waited for a measure that would be
palatable to them, they must give what would be unpalatable
to the great body of the United Kingdom.—(Hear,hear.) He
could rot think that the Honourable Member for Cork
or Kilkenny represented the feelings of the Irish people ; for
he thought, nay, he knew, that a great mass of the population
of Ireland, Catholic, Protestant, and Presbyterian, rej need in
the prospect of a measure which would give those who could
not afford now to procure it, the means of a good classical
education without the bane of sectarian animosities.—( Hear. )
But while he denied that the member for Cork expressed the
opinion of the Irish people, he equally repudiated the assump-
tion that the member fir the University of Oxford represented
the feeling of the Church of England. He would rather ad-
mit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who he supposed
would support the Bill, merited that claim more than ten
to one. Those who professed to be very godly should recollect
what was said by one of the first judgesof the heart, that it was
ever the peculiarity of those who make a pretence of godliness
never to be satisfied till they could put their fingers on their neigh-
bour's conscience, and pinch them there. This measure gave
no such opportunity, and theref ire it was displeasing: but it
was a good, a stupendous, a politic, a worthy measure, and as
such he defended it, and honoured the Government for intro•
(hieing it. It had been said that it had not pacified Ireland,
who ever thought it would? but It was not a measure of to-
day, it was one to create a new and a bettor feeling, one whose
benefits would be felt in future generations, and whose boon
would then be permanent. He hoped the Hon. Member op-
posite (Mr. O'Connell) would excuse him—humble as he was—
in venturing to express his disappointment at the course he had
adopted. fie had expected that party animosities would have
been thrown aside, an i that the time had come when, after con-
ferring great benefits on Ireland, and obtaining for his country
redress for the injuries of ages, he would have assisted this
country in bestowing greater. Why slid he not rise superior
to sectarian animosities? Why would he not now teach the
people over whom he held such indisputable control, lessons of
pacification, and refrain from that useless agitation which he
had so long carried on ? Why would he not help the Govern-
ment in effecting a measure which he ( Mr. Escott) and the
Government and all admitted to be necessary fur the benefit of
Ireland? He had gained many victories, why will he not
achieve one other more glorious, more ennobling than all, a
victory over himself.—( Hear.) Many had attacked the Go-
vernment for a desertion of their former principles ; he, for
one, could see no such change ; in fact, there was a very close
analogy between this and other measures for the relief of the
community. One was opposed by the monopolist of religion,
the others by the monopolist of protection. lie honoured them
because they had defied the taunts of bigotry, and in spite of
bigots and monopolists had urged those principles which were
sanctioned by liberty and truth, anti the free and independent
voice of the United Kingdom. —( Hear, hear.) He said to
them "Go on and prosper."—(lronical cheers.) He could
not please everybody ; but he repeated, "go on anti prosper ;"
their course was a noble one, and he trusted would meet not
only with the temporary approbation of the kingdom, but be
conducive to the prosperity and happiness of Ireland.
Mr. COLQUHOUN would not oppose the present propo-
sition of the Government, though he could not support it on
the grounds submitted by the last speaker, and it would look
like satire if with him he called it a religious measure.—( A
laugh.) The Hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. B. Escott)
had addressed a speech which ought not to have been delivered
on those benches, far more fitting the Opposition, and whose
only seconder should have been the Member for Bath ( Mr.
Roebuck). The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir li. Peel) had at
least placed his measure on intelligible ground., and proposed
to steer clear of religion. He (Mr. Colquhoun) doubted
whether any circumstances should justify such a measure ; but,
if they roust have secular education, it was better not to aim at any
delu •ion of religion which would misguide all and reconcile none.
His only doubt was whether, by the improvement suggested
in the 14th clause, the bye-laws which had been inserted in the
Bill would lead to obnoxious religious instruction. He must
say that his Right Hon. Friend, who had stated on a former
occasion that the proposed system assimilated to the universi-
ties of Scotland, and still more to Trinity College, as re-
spected the Roman Catholic, had not bean very fortunate in
his comparison. He (Mr. Colquhoun) thought the scheme
would afford a fair, good, and substantial education for the
middle classes in Ireland ; but to say it was a university system
of education was, in his opinion, perfectly ridiculous. The
Right lion. Secretary for the Home Departosent had said that
when he was at Oxford he had received no religious instruc-
tion ; now, when he was at College, he was obliged not only
to read sermons, but occasionally to write them. But
he would not place on these special grounds the
difference existing between the university system of
England and the peculiarities of the system which was
about to be introduced into Ireland. He would ask what
was it that gave life and energy to the system of edu-
cation in England ? It was the sermons that were read or the
inculcation of the principles embodied in the thirty-nine
articles. It was the pious example of the teachers, who as
clergyman of the Church were respected and followed, not less
fr.sm their high position than from their prudent instructions
and judicious behaviour. Look at the reformation that had
been worked in the great school at Rugby by Dr. Arnold. He
had effected there great changes by bringing to his work an
earnest and energetic mind, and this in combination with his
general demeanor had wrought powerfully as incentives to
imitation on the pupils. lie was afraid under the proposed
system it would be impossible to prevent the junior scholars
from being tainted with a smattering of some religion. The
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government had alluded
to the proceedings at Belfast College, but he would tell him
that it was not the theological professors who had taught
Arian doctrines—no, it was the professors of Greek and che-
mistry and who had introduced Arian opinions into their lec-
tures. It was very well to provide that in ease any of the
teachers employed in these colleges should mix up religious
matters with what they might teach they should be liable to be
discharged from their vocations. It was possible to hinder them
from openly employing religious discussion, but how could the
professor of Greek, or of astronomy, or of chemistry, be pre-
vented from conveying a significant allusion by means of
a look, or a shrug, or a jocular remark? He would remind the
Right Hon. Baronet that by this means an infidel professor
might introduce principles of a most obnoxious character, and
in the Bill as it stood the public were not safe from these re-
sults. To talk of the preject as a collegiate education equal to
the present university systems of either England, Scotland, or
Ireland, was absurd in the extreme. If the principle was good
let religion be altogether abolished from all our educational in-
stitutions—let this unconservative element be got rid of, and
reduce all knowledge to Greek and mathematics.
The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government
had applied the scheme under the peculiar circumstances
in which Ireland was placed. His Right Hon. Friend, on a
former occasion, had stated that the present system and the
national system were the same. Ile ( Mr. Colquhoun) con-
sidered that the difference was most material. One great dis-
tinction was, that the Government proposed to reserve to them-
selves the nomination of the professors. One of the principal
objections which he had alway s made to the national system of
education was, the power of appointing masters was practically
placed in the hands of those who were not immediately respon-
sible to the Government. In the Committee which sat in the
other House in 15.37, on the National Education scheme, there
were elicited many instances of the incapacity and inaptness
of the persons who had been appointed masters. He would
take one instance, which really presented a most curious illus-
tration of the working of that system of education, In the
trial which had been quoted with so much humour by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Cork, it appeared that Timothy
Lynch, the schoolmaster, in conjunction with Mrs. Peebles,
had succeeded in humbugging the public as to his religion.
This man had at times as many as ISO children committed to
his charge, and he unblushingly admitted, in cross-examina-
tion on the trial, that he sometimes taught them to lie
and cheat, and deceive people. He was a national school-
master appointed by a rev. gentleman, and the counsel, in
his closing speech, alluded to the mistaken motives which had
led to the appointment of so great a rascal to such a situa-
tion. That was a specimen of a national schoolmaster, and
he had adduced it as a remarkable example of the unwhole-
some influence of those local agents to whom was committed the
responsibility of appointing masters for those national schools.
He trusted that her Majesty's Government would retain firmly
in their own hands the appointment of all professors, otherwise
he should look with extreme distrust as to any practical be-
nefit resulting to Ireland from the scheme.
Sir ROBERT PEEL confessed he really had not expected
to hear, on the present occasion, the name of Mrs. Peebles in-
troduced. He did not think that the Hon. Gentleman, in
quoting Mrs. Peebles, had been very successful in showing
that anything wrong existed in the system of national educa-
tion in Ireland, if out of 400,000 children who were instructed
on the national system, he could adduce only one instance of a
schoolmaster who was not competent to fulfil the duties
of that office.--( Hear, hear.) He thought there was
no single civil or ecclesiastical institution which
could boost of so small an amount of vicious regulation : but
the subject of discussion had been departed from. The ques-
tion was not whether the Bill be now adopted, bat it was the
proposition of the Noble Lord the member fur Hertford, and
his Noble Friend who had proposed this motion—" that it is the
opinion of this House that in tam establishment of colleges in
Ireland provision should be made for the 'religious instruction
of the pupils by means of lecture fees, till such time as private
benefacttons for that object may have taken effect." In
bringing forward that motion his Noble Friend had admitted
that the circumstances of Leland were difficult. Ile (Sir R.
Pee!) did not tender his plan of the Government as a perfect
and finished plan. He thought it would be a better plan if
religion were made the foundation of education. He wished
that the circumstances of the country admitted that in bringing
forward this plan the religion of the State could be introduced.
But looking at the peculiar condition of the country the infi-
nite diversity of opinion on religious matters that existed, he
thought it would be best for the country that the education
should be rather cf a mixed character than an exclusive
one. Ilis Noble Friend thought it was advisable
to extend the field of operations, and had said, if you establish
three professorships of theology, one of each to be connected
with
religions—viz. one professor of the Established
Church,
of the Roman Catholic religion, and a third
the
anothery arious
who should inculcate Presbyterian doctrines—such a measure
would have met with his decided support. But he (Sir R.
Peel) would contend that if that principle was acted upon,
professors for every' sect and religion, however minute their
distinctions, must be provided. He then proposed that pro-
vision for religious instruction should be made by means of
levying fees from students, until private beneficence should
afford the required instruction. He would snake no perfect
insufficient means for the purpose. On account
of the diversity of religious opinion, the Government were un-
able to provide religious instructi®n that should satisfy the
provision for the theological professors, but he proposed an in-
padr te and
various demands of the different religionists of Ireland.
The Government had given every sufficient inducement and
encouragement both to professors and students. Twenty
prizes, varying in value, would be offered to the students as in-
centives to their emulation. lie believed that in Ireland there
was that deep religious feeling existing among the Roman Ca.
tholics that induced them to act on the voluntary principle for
the support of the majority of their secular and religious insti-
tutions. It had been seen what had been done in this country
by voluntary contr.butions, and he was satisfied that the Roman
Catholics would continue to adhere to the voluntary principle.
Theu, brought in contact with eminent professors, were
m likely to imbibe religious feelings than if they were
h pupils,
more
left to the subjection of other influences. He was sure that the
parents, or the theological heeds of the Church, would provide
much better for the religious instruction of the
students. Take Cork, for instance. Were they
to presume that the Roman Catholic clergy of that
city, or the wealthy Roman Catholics of that place,
would ni t provide for the spiritual instruction of the pupils at
the college proposed to be established there ? He was sure that
the religious instruction would be better provided for by trust-
ing to such resources, than by subjecting the students, as ad-
vocated by the Noble Lord ( Lord Mahon), to a compulsory
payment on their entering the college.—( Hear, hear.) The
plan of the Noble Lord would require that a high sum for
religious instruction would have to be raised) either at the

fllE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, JUNE 24, 1845.

expense of the parents who sent children to those colleges, or
by the Church to which the students belonged. Now he would
ask what particular form of worship was to be observed, and
were the pupils to be compelled to give their attendance? 'fo
apprehend the difficulties, let them look at the unfortunate
differences at present existing in the Church of England. Sup-
posing a professor giving theological lectures in the University
of Oxford, would it be right to force every student to attend
such lectures, irrespective of what particular part the
lecturer might take in the questions that were
agitating and exciting the Church ? Would it not he better
fur parents and guardians to have the power of regulating the
attendance of those entrusted to their care, upon such theolo-
gical lectures.—( Hear.) So with the Roman Catholics of
!relent/. They (the Government) therefore made in this Bill
the attendance on theological lectures voluntary. Would they
enforce attendance on the part of the students, arid if they
would not, would they enforce payment ? If they did, they
would, he was sore, i itroduce into the measure a great cause
of dissension and ill feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope that
the House, on due reflection, seeing all the difficulties of the
question, would leave theological instruction at these institu-
tions to the operation of the voluntary principle. Any attempt
at a middle course between the two principles of religious en-
dowment or non-endowment would not be accompanied with
any corresponding advantage. lie had been blamed with not
consulting the ecclesiastical authorities in the framing of this
Bill, but experience had convinced him that in that course he
had done right. Had he done otherwise it would not have
been likely that he collet have agreed with any measure that
would hate pleased such authorities.—( Hear, hear.) The
Roman Catholic prelates had insisted that the professors of
geology and anatomy should be Roman Catholics. Had the
Government submitted the measure to an authority of that
kind, would it have been right to adopt such a suggestion ?
( Hear, hear.) He never would have sanctioned such a prin-
ciple. He considered that anatomy might be very well learned
from a Protestants, or geology from a Roman Catholic, with-
out any danger to the faith of the student.—( Hear, hear.)
What would a philosopher of old think of our religion, had
he been told that the principles of abstract science could not
be learned without interfering, with its doctrines. Should the
Roman Catholic youths of last century be told that they could
not be present at the lectures of John Hunter, a Protestant,
without endangering their faith, or that the students of the
present day should avoid the teachings of Sir Benjamin Brodie,
or Sir Philip Crampton, from the same cause.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he could inform the Right Hon.
Baronet that Sir Philp Crampton had, in the course of a lec-
ture he delivered in Dublin, introduced one of the grossest
calumnies against the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
Sir ROBERT PEEL —Were anything of that kind to take
place under the provisions of the Bill before the House the
professor would be removed.--( Hear, hear.) He hoped, how-
ever, the statement made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
respecting Sir Philip Crampton was not correct. If it were
so he ( Sir R. Peel), at all events, had never heard of the fact
alluded to. That gentleman (Sir Philip Crampton) held the
highest character fur scientific attainments and private charac-
ter, and he was persuaded would not have done anything cal-
culated to wound the religious feelings of his Roman Catholic
brethren.
Mr. O'CONNELL admitted that Sir Philip Crampton was j
a very eminent man, and a man most exemplary in all the
affairs of life; yet he certainly did accuse the head of the
Roman Catholic church with committing one of the grossest
acts of persecution. He (Mr. O'Connell) would, however,
say that a letter was published in reply to the Learned Gen-
tleman's accusation, Ora the Or the charge was without foun-
dation, on which Sir Phillip Crampton came forward and
admitted that he was in the wrong.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had mentioned that
Learned Gentleman's name because he was a gentleman
of most camprehensive mind and eminent for his scien-
tific acquirements. He (Sir Robert Peel) had never,
he must again soy, heard of the circumstance to which
the Hcn. and Learned Gentleman alluded ; but, certainly, he
could easily concetve how a professor, speaking of Galileo,
should say something against the Roman Catho'ic Church,
and make use of remarks unpalatable to the believers in the
Roman Catholic faith. It was, therefore, possible that the
Learned Gentleman to whom allusion had been made, in the
course of his teachings, might have made, in elucidating the
history of the science of which he was a professor, some re-
ferences to an instance of persecution proceeding from the head
of the Roman Catholic Church; still, he (Sir Robert Peel)
would beg leave to suspend his judgment till he had seen the
lecture referred to. But, even admitting that the reference in
question had been made, he considered it might he perfectly
admissible with a sincere and studious desire to arrive at truth.
—( Hear, hear.) If such were the state of feeling in Ireland
that public men could not state a fact in reference to the
subject they were appointed to teach, without giving offence to
the Roman Catholics, he held it was necessary to lay the
foundation of a better system, in order, if possible, to put an
end to religious differences. 'The present measure afforded
better hope of future harmony than if they had placed the
appointment of the professors under the spiritual authority of
the Roman Catholic Church . He admitted that they were
open to the objection that they had not consulted the eccle-
siastical authorities. In a letter addressed to him by Arch-
bishop Mtliale, that Prelate thus spoke of the motives which
influenced the Gevernment. He said " They were se-
conding a selfish scheme of mercenary infidels that were
springing up in the country, who, under an affected zeal for
education, would not hesitate to advocate Mahometenism.
if they could obtain:access to the patronage of the Lords of
the Treasury." Suppose they had taken the opinion of Arch-
bishop M`Hale ; he was afraid he would have incurred the risk
either of abandonLig the plan altogether, or of treating the
opinions of Dr. 111tHale with disrespect.--( Hear, hear. )
Then with respect to the Presbyterians, he had received a few
days ago a letter from one very high in authority in that
Church, which he would read to them :—" Sir James Graham
appears to intimate that all religions will be represented in the
Col:eges; but if he might express an opinion it would be that
if there were one Unitarian or Roman Catholic professor over
the undergraduate course the General!Assembly would withdraw
all their students.—( Laughter.) Of the result I entertain no
doubt ; that an Episcopalian profersur of the Church of Eng-
land might be borne, but the appointment of a Roman Catholic
or Unitarian professor of anatomy or agronomy would
lead to the withdrawal of every student." He felt perfectly cer-
tain that these ecclesiastical denunciations would he of no avail.
He believed that they would rather provoke a fair and liberal
spirit among men—a spirit more in consonance, as it appeared
to him, with the true genius of the Christian religion. Ile
thought that after the lapse of some time there would be no ob-
jection to receive instruction of a secular nature from professors
of eminence, whatever their religious creed might be, provided
there would be full security that no advantage would be taken
of that sacred office for the purpose of undermining the faith
of the young men who resorted there for instruction. With
respect to infidelity, the Roman Catholics had not stronger
reasons for opposing its progress than the Protestants.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) There Gould not not be a stronger
guarantee against the introduction of infidelity than the
fact that the power over these institutions lay in
a Protestant state. With respect to the insinuation that doc-
trines favourable to any particular c 1 s would be propagated,
he could not think that theological doe' rines would be broached
in the shape of secular lectures on abstract science. His per-
suasion was that apprehensions on that head were entirely
groundless. Practical testimony had been borne to this by those
educated in Trinity College—conclusive testimony. The
Hoe. Member for Waterford, the Hon. Member for Kerry
and the Right Hod. and Learned Gentleman the Member
for Dungarvon had been educated in Trinity College,
Dublin, where the lecturers belonged to the established Church,
with the exception of two who were Catholics. What was their
testimony ?—And let it be recollected that Trinity College was
an almost exclusively Protestant institution. They had been
four years within its walls, but yet they felt bound to say that
from no professor had they ever heard a word disrespectful to
the Roman Catholic religion, had they ever witnessed a single
attempt to gain an advantage over Protestants or Roman
Catholics. If that was true in an exclusively Protestant
university, were not their apprehensions groundless respecting
new institutions not endowed with an exclusively Protestant
spirit as having that tendency--( Cries of " Hear, hear ")_.
where there was no test, and where, so far as secular
education was concerned, the principle was to give no
preference to any religious creed.—s( Hear, hear.) Was it
right, he repeated, after the experience of Trinity College
Dublin, to credit such insinuations against her professors?
He did hope, from the petitions he had presented in approval
of the Government plan, that notwithstanding the symptoms
of hostility manifested by such men as Dr. Murray and Dr.
Crolly, that the majority of the Roman Catholic Prelates would
ultimately lend their cordial co-operation, which he considered
would be most important to the success of the measure—he
did hope that the opinions of the great body of the laity would
in the end be favourable to it, and he would not despair that
the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland, when they felt assured that nn advantage would be taken of the system of secular in-
struction—that every opportunity would be afforded for reli-
gious instruction, according to the tenets of each church
within the walls of the college—he did hope that there being
such a manifest defect in the system of academical education
in Ireland, the plan was, on the whole, a great boon to the
country, calculated to carry further the inestimable blessings
founded on education, and to lay the foundation of a better
and a kindlier feeling among that youth, which was to form
the future manhood of Ireland._( Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL then rose, and the House was instantly
silent and attentive. He said—Sir, lam aware that we have
already avoided, in a great measure, the real point of dispute,
and travelled out of the proper line of argument in the recent
discussion ; otherwise I would have risen at an earlier period
to express my opinions in a few sentences regarding what I
consider to be the merits and demerits of the measure. Before
doing so, however, I must say a word or two respecting an al-
lusion that has been made to Sir Philip Crampton. I wish to
bear my humble testimony to the excellence of that man, and
to free myself from the supposition that I would have insinuated
anything derogatory to the character of that estimable and
amiable gentleman. He certainly mistook an higorical fact,
and in doing so was guilty of great injustice to the Roman
Catholic Church ; but at the time he did so he was unconscious
of what he stated, being untrue ; and when Doctor Miley,
a Roman Catholic clergyman, represented the fact,
as they really were, he vindicated his high character
by retracting his assertion, that Rome had bees ini-
mical to the advancement of science. Ido not mean to detain
the House more than a few minutes, but I really would wish to
say a word or two about Galileo.—( Laughter.) The general
idea is that he was imprisoned for advocating the Copernicon
system, but, in point of fact, he was only imprisoned by the
Inquisition for three days. So far from being sent to prison
for promulgating the doctrine of Copernicus, the Pope enabled
C irpernicus to publish his discoveries. Galileo was impri-
soned for a different thing—that the theory of the revolution
of the earth could be proved out of Scripture. He was told he
must not preach this doctrine, bui was permitted to state that
there was nothing inconsistent in the Scriptures with the Co-
pernican theory, for obstinacy Galileo was sent to prison for
three days ; and there is the entire history of that popular
legend so fondly cherished by those of an opposite creed, that
though Galileo was imprisoned the world goes round still.
But, turning to the Bill before us, Sir, I do not mean to ar-
raign the motives which actuated the present Government in
bringing forward this Bill. Almost all our actions admit of
the assignment of a motive, and I bedeve the motive of the
Government in bringing forward this Bill was to conciliate
Ireland. I freely admit that. The Hon. Member for Win-
chester, who paid me so high a compliment, and atti ibuted so
much power to me, talked of what the Government had done
for Ireland, but I would like to know what other measure at all
favourable to Ireland had been brought forward by the Go-
vernment, or now lies before either House of Parliament ? I
dare say the Government will last all the longer for it.—( A
laugh.) Sir, I say Ireland is a frightful state. There
is most decided evidence of that fact in Lord Devon's
late Commission. In 1830, Spring Rice showed great distress
and destitution, but was full of hope that the condition of the
people would be speedily ameliorated. In 1834, the Poor-law
Commission stated the frightful fact that 2,300,003 of the
Irish people were in a state of destitution. The late Com-
mission stated that 4,50,009—m0re than one half of the
population—is in this condition, badly clad, badly housed,
badly paid. their food potatoes, their drink water, their bed
straw and perhaps a tattered blanket. That is the condition of
Ireland, and I am sorry that I should be obliged to trespass one
moment on your attention with a subject so full of horror.
The report of Lord Devon on this subject is stated to be in-
correct. If it is incorrect, it is that it is not higher charged,
and there is no hope of amelioration held out except by a
change of measures. Recollect, also, that the agrarian dis-
turbances in Ireland committed year after, the murders. cem-
mitted by the --excited tenantry—tenantry, or their friends,
swept into theditches, are on the inorease. These disturbances are
at present extensive in the county of Roscommon, in Leitrim,
and in Antrim, and in Fermanagh, two horrid murders
had beers committed under this airariqn system 141

-

year. Are Gentlemen of the House of Commons aware that
this is the real situa,ion of Ireland ? They cannot possibly
doubt it. The evidence is most conclusive. There cannot be
a doubt of it entertained by any one. And here you talk of
meting out a scholastic boon when the people are starving.—
( Hear, hear.) Oh, don't kick up a din—don't make a merit
of bringing in a Bill to benefit the Irish out of the capital
themselves have saved. This i< a ease for the Queen's Govern.
ment—a case in which they should claim and obtain the assist-
ance of every honest man.—( Cheers.) When I addressed this
House last year, I asked the Queen's Government what
they intended to do for Ireland ? No matter what
might become of me. 1 asked what they intended to do
for Ireland ? They had schemes of their own for the
suppression of grievances ; but they did nothing for Ireland
(
Hear, hear, and cheers.) I got no response then, and I
again ask them now, what they intend to do for Ireland ? I
feel exceedingly gratified by the kind attentions of the Hon.
Member for Winchester.—( Hear, hear, and Cheers.) He had
determined to give this measure his support wisely and deter-
minedly; and I do believe that, setting aside religious diffe-
rences, the English members have, with great manliness, taken
a liberal interest in a change of the system. But it will be of
no use to make eloquent speeches such as I listened to a few
minutes ago. You are listened to and have your triumph here ;
but all that won't do ; and therefore I say, that you.
the strongest .Ministry which has yet existed, hove all
in your own passer. You excuse yourselves for not
having consulted the ecclesiastical party in Ireland
before bringing on this Bid. What harm would it have done
to have consulted them ? It would not have bound your oliinion,
and, therefore, it could not have done any harm to have con-
sulted them. I tell you that you must introduce religion in
your measure or it will not be received by the people of Ireland.
We are essentially religious, and, however much we may differ
on points of religion, infidelity is unknown in Ireland ; there-
fore I say, make religion the basis of your proceedings, and
you may test assured that you will have the protection of a
higher power; but do not flatter yourselves that you can in-
troduce any measures conciliating to the people of Ireland it you
exclude religion from your plan. Give Protestantism to Pro-
testants, give Catholicism to Cathelies. I want nothing ex-
clusive tar the Catholics that the Protestants have not an
equal right to ; but let the same justice be done to all. Intro-
duce religious instruction into your colleges, hut let the same
fair play be shown to all. Give them religious instruction and
the chances are, that that which is dominant—the charity of God
and lave to man—will predominate, and aided, by fair play, and
justice will give a prospect of effecting that reconciliation so
desired by all.—(Cheers.) If you fail in this scheme of reli-
gious education—l say, that even if you fail—you will have
fallen in a majestic attempt to inculcate Christian duty ; but if
you make the attempt in the right direction, I fear not for the
result. It has been shown that the Catholic Bishops of Ireland
have pronounced your Bill to be dangerous and immoral, and
though you may treat their decision with levity, remember that
six millions of the people of Ireland treat it with respect.—
( Cheers.) Recollect, that when you come to talk of educating
the Catholics, they pay attention to the decision of their bishops.
The bishops tell you that your scheme is dangerous and immo.
ral, and they wished to prevent its working out an improper
purpose. They had two Protestant professors of divinity in
in the College of Belfast, one a Unitarian, and one what they
termed the Orthodox. If you want protection in the Presby.
terians they have it, but the Roman Catholic Bishops require
the means of protecting themselves. You tell me that if the
Professor preaches infidelity you can dismiss him, but the Ca-
tholic B.shop says we will run no such risk. These are the
grounds on which we stand and the objection is not an imagi-
nary on. The Protestant professors in Belfast have been
accused of introducing into their lectures mstters favourable to
Unitarianism, and this danger is not an imaginary one.
Sir R. PEEL, as we understood.—Which of the Professors
did so ?
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Professors give, no daubs, their
own views in their lectures. I mean the chain of moral
philosophy.
Mr. COLQUHOUN made a remark which was inaudible
in the gailery.
tldr. O'CONNELL—The ecclesiastical teacher and pro-
fessor of Greek. Now, if the fact be so, what an excellent
argument might be used in this House, " Do you speak of the
Professor of Greek. oh, he is only a teacher of languages."
Are the Catholic Bishops to be subject to the caprices of a
Minister? Have they time to examine into the qualifications
of the professor of anotomy, or of any of the sciences. The
Catholic prelates are now assembled, and you can communi-
cate with them. At present they have denounced your Bill
as dangerous and criminal, and no Roman Catholic is ill be
found to support it• You deserve credit for the manlier in
which you carried out another measure respecting Ireland,
and though I were not here to express my gratitude, I cannot
conceal that that measure was dictated by fair play and justice.
Sir, it has been well said •• that education is power." But it
is a power of that kind that we cannot be too jealous of the
hands :n which it is placed.—(Cheers.) Ido not blame those
who think that a mixed education is the better.. 7( Hear, hear. )
But I think that in such cases as you choose to make the ex-
periment, the religion of all should be respected. —C Hear,
hear.) I think that all parties could meet in a mixed educa-
tion of general philosophy and physical science, if the religion
of each was respected.—( Hear, hear.) There is one
part of this project which appeors to many to be
very formidable, and especially to me who am a thorough
Radical.—(Cheers and a laugh.) But, as we haue always
found that the smuggler is the best corrector of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, so do I think that the encouragement given
by this measure to contrabane teaching with bring the Govern-
ment to see the necessity of making religious teaching legiti-
mate and authorised.—( Laughter and cheers.) I have done.
I did not ietend to trespass upon the House.—( Hear, hear.)
It is my wish to render this measure such as would ensure
success.—( Cheers.) I think that you cannot expect to make
it succeessessful, unless you attain the support of the Catholic
Bishops, who have six millions of the people under their cure. 1'
—( Hear.) I think the Bill may be made useful. But I think
there ought to be no pressing of the the Committee just now.
I trust that we may have a few days' delay, which can make
no difference of any moment, whereas the delay would have
mportant effects. —( Bear.) It is now past eleven o'clock, and
I trust the Committee will not be pressed. If it is, I will
divide the House. lam desirous of taking part in every 'llea-
sure which may so improve the Bill as to enable me to give
it my support.—( Hear. ) I would de anything to put an end
to the disaffection in that country.—( Much cheering.) But,
Sir, there is great physieal suffering in that country, whit h
may lead to the most frightful evils, before many of us here
shall have been months in our graves. ('The Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen sat down amidst loud cheering. )
Sir R. INGLIS had not intended to trouble the House,
nor would he have done so but for the statement of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman respecting the ease of Galileo. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said that it was by the as.
sistanee of the Sovereign Pontiff that Galileo was enabled to
establish the truth of the Copernican system. The lion. and
Learned Gentleman must have counted upon the ignorance
of the Houre when he made that statement.—( Cheers and
laughter.) He must have thought that no one but himself
ever knew the history of Galileo—(Cheers and a laugh)—or
that if other Members had ever known that history they must
by this time have forgotten it.—( A laugh.) The Hon.
Gentleman ascribed to Leo the Fifth the power of proceeding
and of afterwards assisting, Galileo. But the fact was that
Galileo was imprisoned in 1615, and Leo the Fifth did not
commence to reign until 1645.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman trusted to the luck of the
moment, and relied to the absence of historial memory from the
House.—(Cheers and laughter.) Any one who knew the
history of Galileo would recollect that it was not because his
doctrine was opposed to the Scriptures that he was punished,
but because they were opposed to the Church.—( Cheers. )
The Hon. awl Learned Gentleman Paid that Galileo was in
prison but three days, instead of three years. The time made
little difference ; but the fact was, that Galileo was imprisoned
in 1615, and he was still there in 161.7.—( Cheers arida laugh.)
The Right Hon. Baronet again apologised for having risen at
all, and thanked the House for its indulgence.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL begged leave to explain. The Right
Hon. Baronet had misunderstood him, or had not heard him,
for he had said that Pope Leo V. was a Cardinal at the time
when Galileo was imprisoned.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose amidst loud cries of " Divide."
He was disposed to regard the Government measure as one of
great benefit to the people of Ireland. The assertion of the
Hon. Member (Mr. O'Connell) that the people of Ireland
were bound by the opinions and doctrines of the Roman Catholic
Bishops was an aspersion on the people of that country, who
instead of being held in such a domination by any man, or any
body of men, whatever might be their influence, ought to act
and think for themselves. He was of opinion that the Land-
lords and Tenants Bill, in its present form, would not satisfy
the wants of the people of eland. Ile should support the
measure of the Government.
Sir A. BROOKE wished to correct a statement which had
been made by the Hon. Member ( Mr. O'Connell), that two
murders had recently been committed in the county of Fer-
managh. Not only had no murder been committed recently,
but within the memory of man no murder had been caused
through agrarian disturbances. He did not mean to say that
there had not been threatening notices, but during the last
twenty years he did not believe there had been either an agra-
rian outrage or a murder.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord C. HAMILTON said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
O'Connell) during a great part of his address wished to show
that he was doing the bidding of others, and said that all he
wanted was fair play. Ile ( Lord C. Hamilton) was of opi-
nion that many measures which had been proposed for
the benefit of Ireland, had been opposed and
ultimately defeated by those whom they were intended to be-
nefit. If the whole conduct of the Government had not
evinced fair play, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman, when he
next addressed the House, would give his definition of it. He
admitted that he had correctly pictured the miserable condi-
tion of the people, but it should be borne in mind that the Ro-
man Catholic Church received a revenue, in proportion to
their number, larger than any other country, and it should be
also recollected that large sums were raised from the popula-
tion to aid that agitation which the Hon. Member thought
necessary. He was of opinion that the choice of those to edu-
cate youth should be left to their parents and guardians.
Mr. HOPE said that it was his opinion that as this amend-
ment was opposed entirely to the Bill, it was entitled to the
support of those who opposed the measure.
Mr. SHAW said that he would feel great reluctance in op.
posing the motion of his Noble Friend. He could perceive
no difference between endowing their theological professors
out of the Consolidated Fund and obliging them to be main-
tained by means of compulsory fees. He should therefore op-
pose the amendment.
Mr. HINDLEY rose, amidst loud cries of "Oh, oh," and
"Divide." He said, that having presented 1,200 petitions
against the Maynooth grant, as opposed to the voluntary sys-
tem, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork having as-
serted in his place in that House, on a former occasion, when
that grant was opposed by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Lincoln, that if pressed to a division he would vote against it,
on the voluntary principle, he did not think that he was now
justified in stating that those petitions had raised a senseless
clamour. He desired to know if the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman still adhered to that opinion.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he certainly included the peti-
tions
of nsprtehseemntteod.mbyortrhoew!looono.tainGeiroitglemthaenm,
oasntdoohteracgoeuoldus eprayomue!
nies against the Roman Catholic religion.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 49
Against it
Majority
—l4O
On our re-admission to the gallery we found
Mr. NV YSE on his legs, stating that he was willing to post-
pone* motion which he had on the paper for that evening re-
specting the professorships of the intended colleges, till the
bringing up of the report in the Committee.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that the amendments would be
printed, and that all further proceedings on the measure would
be postponed till that day week.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the suggestion of the
Hen. Gentleman a good one, and hoped the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet would accede to it.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he was perfectly ready to
go on, but in compliance with the wish which had been ex-
eLssuedN,AlieThlcad
AnosoybLeucr to accede
titoptEheßapLpltiTcNatioTnlc
A
second reading of this Bill.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, after a period of ten years, it
had been proposed that this system should be altered. Five
years had been proposed, but he thought that ten years would
be a better period.
Mr. BARNEBy was only anxious that there should be a
complete fulfilment of the object.—( Order, order.)
Sir J=AMES GRAHAM was only anxious for a fair state-
ment of the case, and if any special case were to be made out,
it might be considered when the Bill went into Committee.

Lord ASHLEY only desired that the Bill should he read a
second time pro forma, but he would desire that it should be
ennimitted to-morrow. • -
The Rill was then read a second time:—' j
PAUPER LUNATIC A S YL4,14 \-114.L (S 9, Pk Tr).
On the motion that this Bill bd,riad a second firrie,,kkreflore.
Mast sea said that h' thought it ..be_tutti-e-ifht`fo con-
sider how the interests of the poor. • .14 ite (lagAcT
ASHLEY said that in this. : !re very care id been
taken to rn,ke the Bill as perfect as possible, and he thought
the Bill might safely be read a second time.
Mr. ESCOTT was proceeding to say a few words, when he
was corrected by
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who told him that the Hon.
Member must be under some misapprehension, as the two
&Is dirt not go together.
The Bills were then read a second time.
IRISH LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL.
Upon the motion that the Speaker do now leave the
chair,
Mr. BROTHERTON objected, as he said he foresaw the
speech the Noble Lord near him (Lord Clements) would
male ~ —( Laughter.)
Sir T. FREMANTLE hoped the Bill would be allowed
to be proceeded with.
The further consideration of the Bill was then postponed.
The House then went into Committee on the Timber
Shins BM.
'I he clauses were all agreed to without any discussion, and
the Bill was reported.
The Assessed Taxes Composition Bill passed through Com-
mittee.
The Bills of Exchange Bill was postponed till Wednesday.
The %Vest India Islands Bill war reported.
SIR HENRY POTTINGER.
The report on Sir Henry Pottinger's Annuity Bill was
brought up and laid on the table.
On the report of the Seal-office Abolition BM beire
brought up,
An Hos. MENIBER observed that forty Members were ri,,t
present. and moved that the House be counted.
The House was accordingly cleared for a division, and
thirty-nine having been found present, when Sir J. Graham
entered just in time to be counted as the fortieth, amid laud
cheers and laughter.
The Bill was then reported.
COMMONS ENCLOSURE (ALLOWANCES) BILL.
'I his 13ill was also reported, and the House adjourned at half
past Twelve.

THAMES GRAND REGATTA.
The great meeting at Putney, which is looked forward to wick
an extraordinary degree of interest its the aquatic circles, will coin.
mence this day. The Committee have judiciously arranged the
sport in the following order :
FIRST DAY.
The Apprentices' Match, for a Coat and Badge. Three heats ;
the first tw. boats in each heat to row in the final heat. First heat
—Prince, Campbell, Doyle, and Stanley. Second heat—M'Cla-
rence, WKenney, George Driscol, and G. Pocock.
The Tradesmen's Challenge Plate, for four-oared boats. Two
heats ; the first three boats in the first heat to contend in the se-
cond, or grand beat.—The Confidence Club, Richmond ; the Lam.
both Aquatic Club, the Avon Club, and the Sceptre Club.
A Pair of Silver Cups, for pair-oared boats (gentlemen amatefirs.
Three beats; the first two boats in each heat to row in the final
heat. —Messrs. S. Wallace, Leander Club, and Peacock, Sets'.
tors' Clab ; Messrs. Breedon and Buckle, Oxford University;
Messrs. Cloves and Hill, Cambridge University ; Messrs. Strange
and Cox, Oxford University Rooms; Messrs. Julius and Bunsstead,
Leander Club ; Messrs. H. Chapman, —; and Warnsley, Nep-
tune Club ; Messrs. Arnold and Mann, Cambridge University;
Messrs. Dodd and Peachey. Ariel Club.
A prize of 50 son. for watermen (scullers). Three heats.
The first two boats in each heat to contend in the final one. First
heat—T. Goodrum, Millbank ;D. Coombes, Milbank ;J. Leach,
Vauxhall ; Bartlet, Vauxhall ; May, Westminster bridge; Po.
cock, Lambeth. Second heat—Cook, Hungerfo:d; Kitley, Hun-
,gerford ; Robins, Horslcydown ; Forest, Greenwich ; T. Phelps,
Fulham ; T. Coombes, Milbank.
SECOND DAY (WEDNESDAY.')
Silver Challenge Cup for sculls (gentlemen amateurs).—Three
heats. The A rat two boats in each to row in the third, or grand
heat. The first and second heat only to be rowed on this day.
Messrs. 'l'. Soane, Thetis Club; Russell, Cambridge Rooms; Conant,
Oxford University ; S. Wallace, Leander Club; Peacock, Scullers'
Club; A. M'Leod, —; Kennedy, Smilers' Club ; W. M. Wes-
trop, Chapman, —; J. IL Bumstead, Leander Club ;
('olquhoun, Leander Club.

A new wherry, given by the lessee of Vauxhall Gardens, with
60/. added from the regatta funds, for pair-oared watermen. The
first two boats in each heat to row in the grand heat. Three
heats. First heat—J. Phelps, Fulham, and J. Maynard, Lam.
beth ; C. Hill, Hungerford, and Parry, Lambeth ; R. Coonabes,
Milbank, and Wilson, Wapping; Liddy, Wandsworth, and Men.
sam, Richmond ; J. Godfrey, Strand-lane, and Meakiff. Horse.
ferry; H. Green, Lambeth, and T. Braithewait, Hungerford.
Second heat—R. Newell, Horsleydown, and Barrow, Bankside,
J. Doubledee, Lambeth, and C. Everard, Old Barge House; H.
Shelton, Lambeth, and G. Campbell, Westminster-bridge ; Max.
well, Custom-house, and H. Campbell, Lambeth; J. Dodd, Hun.
gerford, and J. Everard, Blackfriars ; F. Lett, Lambeth, and
Kipping, Hungerford.

The Gold Challenge Cup tin- Gentlemen Amateurs, Eight oared
Boats. Three heats. The first boat in each heat to row in the
grand heat.—St. George's Boat Club, the Oxford University, the
Neptune Club, Camb►idge University Subscription rooms.
A Purse for Landsmen in Four-oared Boats. 20/. to the first,
I ill. to the second, and 51. to the third. Three heats. The first
tw•o in each heat to row in the grand heat.—Walker, Cotes, Mar.
tin, Sheen, and Smith ; Greenaway, King, Sewel, Newham, and
ltecres Sheppard, Chide, Ilaroack, Prince, and another • Waite,
G. Wright, W. Wright, Bctren, and Gradrick ; Cox, Pocock,
P.-tors, Peters, and another ; Standerwick, Saunders, Cashey, Rea
buy, and Lavender.

THIRD DAY (THURSDAY).
The Gentlemen:Amateur Scullers' Match—final heat.
The Champion Prise, 100 sous., open to all tire World ; FaLIT.
oared Boats.—Three heats; the first boat in the first heat and the
two first in the scoond heat to row in the grand heat. The Lord
Ravensworth, of Ness castle—A. Clasper, W. Clasper, R. Clasper,
E. Hawkes, and Richard Clasper, coxswain. Sons of the Thames
London Crew—Robert Newel, W. Rubins, J. Doubledee, W.
Pocock, and E. Maynard, coxswain. Land London Crew—
Thomas Coornbes, Thos. Goodrum, John Phelps, Robert Coornhes,
and Hasid Coombes, coxswain. The Merry Monarch, London—
W. Campbell, J Maynard, J. Leach, E. Lett, and W. Moulton,
coxswain. The Endeavour, of Hammersmith—Jas. White, Geo.
Wright, Win. Wright, W. 11. Beffen, and G. Goodrick.
Silver Challenge Cup for Four oared Boats, Gentlemen Arne-
teurs.• -Three heats ; the first twos boats in each heat to contend in
the grand heat :—St. George's Boat Club, the Leander Club, Col-
lege of Civil Engineers, the Thetis Club, Oxford University, the
Neptune Club, the Royal Academy Club, the Nautilus Club, and
the Waverly Club.
The sports will conclude with an eight.oared " scratch" race
fur silver medals, in one grand beat.
The races will commence at three o'clock on the first day, half
an hour later on the second, and at four on the last clay, and will
follow each other in rapid succession. It has been arranged, in
order that the public may have an opportunity of distinguishing the
boats, that each rower or crew shall come to the committee's boat,
which will be stationary, a short distance above Putney- bridge,
on the Middlesex side, and receive such sized colours to place in
the bow of their boat as may easily be discerned. The whole of the
races will be started from Putney-bridge; the sculls and pair oars
at Hammersmith-bridge, but the fours and eights runn-
ing to Chiswick Eyot. No boats will be allowed to accompany
the races ; and a strong party of the police will be on the shore
and on the river to preserve order.

THE LATETIJU EL AT GOSPORT.
The following note has been addressed to us by Mrs. Hawkey;
and we willingly print it, because it appears to us very essential
that all the particulars of the latt unfortunce affair should be be.
fore the public:—

Mrs. Hawkey presents her compliments to the edior of the
Meriting Post, and in reference to a recent promise a hers to him
of returning to this subject at a fitting opportunity, she now, in
perlormance thereof, begs, in the first place, to refer him to her
statement, which, by the advice and direction of her counsel in
the law, she made on Tuesday last before the Coroner's inquest,
wherein the great original causes of the melancholy occurrence art
put forth upon oath, with the most strict impartiality.
In the second place, and with respect to the circumstances that
attended the duel (of which the evidence before the inquest gives
only a very partial and imperfect account, derived entirely from
the adverse party!, Mra. Hawkey begs further to inform the editor
on the most competent authority:-
1. That the challenge emanated from Mr. Scion (and not from
Mr. Hawkey), in consequence of the latter having, while the former
was quitting the ball.room on the Monday night preceding,
avthg
admi-
nisteredto told
tia(
(Air. Hawkey)
(or something
ta
"That
earylig likeh Light cavalry
one
man could never
give satisfaction,
words to that effect.
or mix himself up with an infantry one;" or

2. That the challenge was brought to Mr. Hawkey at half-past
seven the following morning by Lieut. Rowles, Royal Navy, who
on the following
evening addressed a letter on the subject to Lieut.
‘
which was speedily got hold of and sent to
l.arthepd Royal
ressbya Marines,
certainattending medical man of (r. Seton's party,
and has been already before the public. This production Mrs.
Hawkey leaves to the opinion and judgment of every carrdisl and
impartial reader.
_

3. That on the ground Mr. Seton's antagonist receited, but &di
put into the hands of both principals, and die-
not return that gentleman's first fire. Notwithstanding which, a
csehcaorig'dedi,)iswittoihwoaul any effort being made to arrest the affair ;
the effect of the second fire was the wound to Mr. Seten, which,
after the lapse of a fortnight, and a display of chirurgical skill on
the part of the attending medical men (which by some professionals
of the faculty is pronounced as good, and by many bad), followed
by an opera ion, " the most formidable in surgery," by one of the
most eminent operators In London, terminated fatally on the tld
instant.

Mrs. Hawkey leaves it to those gentlemen who are conversant in
such affairs to determine how far the second of Mr. Se:on was, by
the understood laws of duelling, justified in permitting his friend to
deliver a second shot after his first shot had been received and not
returned by his antagonist, :rho thereby received two shots, but de-
livered only one. According to the opinions of many officers with
whom she has conversed on the point, it seems certain that Mr.
Seton's second, instead of allowing the second shot, ought to have
immediately withdrawn his friend from the ground; and that by
his failing to do so, he was guilty of a dereliction of his duty as a
second, which has brought upon him the awful responsibility of
having been himself, in truth, the cause of the fatal termination et'
he duel.

mulr'dheer,,Coagroaziinesrr's
Liizeiqoureesntaohtas viiitaigwkreeytuaronreldp3a„; e(rbdyie,,t,boif "
obWiltlrf
verdict
for moment tanor,igeltiletrurnrtiobtuicbhaedl.
Mrs.the Hcaaswekewyilwl of
ctlicurr.resifeto°i'co l,estaobissttariciianftitYom commenting on the malignant manner its
which these two unfortunate gentlemen have been pursued in their
absence by certain persons of this place, and on the various means
(due and undue) which have been resorted to for the object of
procuring witnesses for their prosecution—matters which will be
hereafter commented on by abler and more competent pens than
hers, and at a proper time and in the proper place be exposed to
public animadversion by able counsel. She will merely say, that
in a case of an "affair of honour," she Itelieves such proceedings
are without the authority of example or precedent of any descrip-
tion....

3, King's-terrace, Southsea June 19 1845. —Pct.

SMALL DEBTS.— Lu 'Brougham's Bill for the
better securing the payment of small debts, provides that a
ienred2itoz obtaining judgment or order in respect of a ,
debt not ez
may summon his debtor before a Commissioner of
Bankrupgts 20
or Court of Requests, &c., who may order payment of the debt out of
the debtors' salary, pay, or pension, Sec. Where several Courts
exist
in the same town, dm, the business is not to he transferred
from one to the other, but the superior Court alone to have juris.
diction over debts of greater amount under this Act. The powers
of 7th and Bth of Victoria, c. 96, are proposed to be extended to
all cases of balances not exceeding 20/. Applications to commis.
stoners, &c., need not be made by counsel or attorney, and affi-
davits in bankruptcy and insolvency may be sworn before keepers
of prisons. Into rim orders to persons in custody are to be granted
upon petition, without delay, and taxing officers need not be prac-
tising attorneys.
The review of the Second Lire Guards by his
Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, the Marquis of London-
derry, Colonel of the regiment, and a distinguished stall- of officers,
which was to have come off this morning on Wimbledon-common,
is postponed, in consequence of a grand review of the Household
Cavalry and Foot Guards having been appointed to take place
before his Majesty the King of the Belgians on Saturday next.
.Nlr. Smith, the proprietor of the shooting gallery
in Holborn, expired on Thursday morning last, from an abscess,
caused by the wound in his back. It may be remembered he was
shot last July by the Hon. Mr. Touchet, who was tried and ac.
quitted on the ground of insanity:.-,sundey Paper.