The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-15 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 14.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
Mr. M. MILNES presented six petitions against
the Bradford and Leeds Railway.
Mr. WALKER presented similar petitions from
the Earl of Derby, the Earl of Wilton, and others.
Lord WOR.SLEY presented petitions from York-
shire in favour of the Commons Inclosure Bill. _

Mr. P. BORTHAVICK presented a petition from
certain persons connected with the silk trade, praying
that the operation of the Factories Bill might not ex-
tend to their trade.

Mr. ALDAINI presented a petition from Leeds
against certain clauses of the Factories Bill.
Lord MAHON presented a petition from Hert-
ford against any further tax being imposed on coal
imported into the port of London.
Mr. AINSWORTH presented a petition from the
cotton-spinners of Bolton, praying for the abolition
of the duty on cotton wool.
Lord OSSULSTON presented petitions from
Northumberland, in favour of protection to agri-
culture.

Mr. HARDY presented a petition from Bradford
in favour of a Ten-hours' Bill.
AUSTRALIA.

Mr. G. HOPE said that his Hon. Friend the Member
for Roxburghshire had, last night, moved for certain
papers relating to Australia. In moving for those
papers, his Hon. Friend had entered into a long state-
ment respecting the condition of the squatters in
South Australia. In the ordinary channels of in-
formation this statement had been given to the public,
but his (Mr. Hope's) reply to it had not. He
therefore now rose merely to state that, although the
Government did not object to the production of the
papers moved for by his Hon. Friend, yet they did
not agree with the statement made by the Hon.
Gentleman with respect to the-condition of the squat-
ters in South Australia. . . _

Yv
Mr. RICARDO presented a petition from the
Potteries, praying for the release of a person confined
for sedition. _ _

Lord SANDON presented a petition from Liver
pool against the union of the sees of Bangor and St
Asaph.

NOTICES OF MOTION.

Lord PALMERSTON deferred till this clay fort-
night his motion relative to the treaties between
France and England on the subject of the right of
search.
PENINSULAR ARMY.

Col. LEITH HAY gave notice that, on 'Wednes-
day, the 20th instant, he should move an address to
her Majesty, praying the Crown to confer some ho-
norary badge of distinction on the surviving officers
of the Peninsular army.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

Mr. M. GIBSON postponed his motion on the
deficiency of agricultural statistics, until this day
fortnight.

MORTMAIN.

Lord J. MANNERS gave notice of a motion for
a future day on the law of mortmain.

CATHOLIC OATH.

Mr. VERNON SMITH, owing to the absence
from town of several Members, whose assistance he
desired to have, postponed his motion for an altera-
tion of the oath taken by Roman Catholics on enter-
ing Parliament, and gave notice of his intention to
introduce a Bill - the subject soon after Easter.

411 upon _
THE RECENT DUEL.

Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said that, with the per-
mission of the House, he begged leave to correct a
mistatement which he had been led into the other
evening with regard to the late duel between Lieut.
Munro and Lieut.-Colonel Fawcett. He stated on
that occasion he heard it reported that on the day be-
tween the provocation and the duel, which was a
Friday, Lieut. Munro, or his second, consulted the
officers of his regiment. Since then he had received
the following letter from Mrs. Munro, R hich he would
read to the House :
" 51, Cambridge-terrace, Hyde-park,
"March 12, 1844.
" Sir,—Observing in the Times of to-day a letter
from yourself regarding the late melancholy duel, re-
flecting upon any.advice offered to my most unfor-
tunate husband from his brother officers, allow me to
assure you that not one officer still holding a .com-
mission in his regiment was consulted on Friday.
The truth is this, that one officer of 30 years' stand-
ing was consulted, likewise a gentleman of much experi-
ence in those affairs. This gentleman during the day
consulted a general officer, and Lieut. Munro con-
sulted three military friends not in his own regiment,
who all were of opinion that there was no other
course to be adopted but the one he followed.
" I still linger in England to defend my unfortunate
husband's case, as far as lies in my power ; and I again
beg to assure you that there is not the slightest blame
to be attached to any of the officers of the Royal
Horse Guards.

publishing this letter, in answer to your's of
this day, to do justice to the officers of the Blues in
this lamentable occurrence, will greatly oblige,
" Sir, your obedient Servant,
" ELIZA MUNRO. _ _

" W. 0. Stanley, Esq., M.P."
GREECE.

Mr. B. COCHRANE---s;iihe rose for the purpose
of asking the Government what course they intended
to pursue with regard to our future diplomatic re-
lations with Greece. Before the 15th of September
Greece was suffering all the evils incident to petty
disputes. The internal administration of the country
was enfeebled, and its resources were destroyed. The
municipal privileges of the people, which they held
so dear, were destroyed, and, at the same
time, foreign soldiers and mercenary troops
were . employed to perpetuate this state of
things. The best friends of Greece, and those
who were best acquainted with the country, as the
Hon. Member for Bolton, anticipated that this would
produce a renewal of those scenes of bltedshed and
violence which had for so long a period devastated
that country: On the 15th of September the
nation rose in a mass, bpt they did not commit
a single act of bloodshed or violence. The -Con-
stitution was proclaimed, and it was accepted by
the representatives of France and England ; the
latter' of whom, in , this respect, anticipated the
feelings of his Government ; and here the House would
pardon him if he paid the tribute of his admiration
to that Gallant Officer, who filled the situation of
Minister of this country at the Court of Greece. He
had received communications from Greece informing
him that to the conciliatory policy of Sir E. Lyons,
Greece was indebted for many valuable services.
In any allusion that might be made to the revolu-
tion, he should not at all touch upon the revolution
which affected the Crown at so recent a joeriod ;
but at the same time he should render his
meed of praise and approbation to the results
of the late elections. The next point to which he
should refer briefly, was, that with respect
to the communication with Piscatori. In that
it was asserted directly that they were most
anxious to maintain all the legitimate institu-
tions of -the empire in their original integrity,
The document concluded by exhorting King Otho to
-use his influence in a moderate and temperate man-
ner, or he would be plunged into worse dangers than
those he had escaped. (The Hon. Gentleman then
read an extract from the dispatch of the Earl of
Aberdeen to Sir E. Lyon,) He regretted 'to saythat, since that period, the Russian party had used all
influence in opposition to the other combined parties.
In- pursuance of the object of his motion, he could
only state that one of the, articles of the Constitutioni
was guaranteed by the State, and he should wish to
know how far the Government intended to permit
the ratification of that article. It was the 39th ar-
ticle, which stated, that every successor to the throne of
Greece, shall be a member of the Greek Church ;
this article was entirely opposed to the treaty of 1832,
which placed the succession to the Greek throne in
the house of Bavaria, and the next brother of King
Otho was a Roman Catholic. If this article should
be ratified, it must lead to great difficulties, and a
complete subversion of all the objects of the revolution.
Another article was the 70th, which gave the King
the power of appointing officers of the State for life.
There were several minor points, but the succession to
the throne, and the settlement of the Civil List, were
those to which he desired chiefly to direct ,the atten-
tion of the Government. By adopting the Constitu-
tion, the Greeks had placed themselves in the posi-
tion in which they would have been in 1832, if the
conditions of the treaty had been fulfilled by the
Allied Powers. It was the duty of the two
Powers, if they had the interest of Greece at heart,
to interfere to prevent the ratification of the articles.
He thought it would be most unwise and injudicious
in the people of that country, if, with the example of
France and England before their eyes, they were not
satisfied with the same amount of constitutional li-
berty as was enjoyed by other European countries.
The King, having so cordially adopted the Constitu-
tion, it would be unjust if the people did
not meet him with reliance and good faith.
He thought that the course that had been pursued
was erroneous, and that other means ought to be
taken for the purpose of considering what course
would be best calculated to lead to the proper govern-
ment of Greece. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
by moving for correspondence, or extracts of any
correspondence, between her Majesty's Government

and Sir Edmund Lyons, or the Courts of France
and Russia, relating to recent events in Greece.
Sir R. PEEL trusted the House would permit the
Government to exercise a large discretion with re-
spect to the part of the correspondence which it should
be advisable to produce. The correspondence which he
(Sir R. Peel) would produce would rather refer to the
general principles which this country, acting in con-
cert with the Government of France, had advised
the National Assembly of Greece to pursue, in lay-
ing the foundation of their future constitutional
government. He thought the House and the Hon.
Gentleman would 'admit that those instructions and
that advice had been influenced by the purest mo-
tives, and the sincerest wishes, to establish in
Greece a popular representative and constitu-
tional government, combined, at the same time,
with such institutions as should secure the existence
of a limited monarchy. He thought that the corres-
pondence which he should lay before the House
would fully prove the truth of his assertion. But he
should feel exceedingly unwilling to lay before the
House at present any correspondence with regard
to the details which were now under consider-
ation. He thought that the way in which
the National Assembly and the constituted
authorities had acted up to the present time,
showed that they were deserving of public con-
fidence. He thought that at present it would be very
impolitic to enter into a discussion on the subject.
—(Hear, hear.) As a proof of the inexpedi-
ency of entering into these discussions at present,
he would . mention one circumstance. If the Hon.
Gentleman had asked him, at four o'clock, what was
the decision of the Assembly of Greece on the subject
of the duration of the term of office of Ministers in
that country, he could not have given him any infor-
mation on the subject, but, after the lapse of a few
minute, he was enabled to inform him that accounts
had been received from Greece during the course of
the present day, with the result of the discussion of
that subject in the Greek Assembly. A division had
taken place on the question, and the votes had been
equal on each side—ninety-eight having voted for
the limitation of the time of holding office to ten
years, and ninety-eight for office being held during life.
h was expected that a division would take place the
next day, which would decide the question. The
House would therefore see, whilst these great ques-
tions were under discusssion in the Assembly
of Greece, properly and constitutionally constituted,
how extremely inconvenient it would be to have these
matters discussed in the British House of Commons.
He felt assured that the House would agree with him
that it would be exceedingly improper to attempt any
premature discussion of the subject in that House,
lest they should create an unjust and improper pre-
judice on the subject. Every effort had been
made since the commencement of these proceed-
ings, both by the British and by the French
Governments, to give such advice only as
it was fitting for them to give, and as it was
also fitting for a free nation, like the nation of Greece,
to receive.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the loan,
he trusted that the Hon. Gentleman would excuse
him if he declined giving any answer on the subject
at present. Although at one time it might have
been considered expedient to insist upon the repay-
ment of the loan, yet when they considered what
had recently taken place, be thought the House would
agree with him in opinion that allowances ought to
be made for a people who were passing through such
a crisis as the people of Greece were passing through
at present. He hoped the House would feel assured that
every attempt would be made, on the part of the Go-
vernment, to reconcile the duty which they owed to
this country as the guardians of the public purse, with
what they felt was due ;to a country placed in such
a position as that which Greece now occupied.—
(Cheers.) In about ten days he hoped to be able to
lay on the table of the House all that portion of
the correspondence which he should think it right to
produce, and which he trusted would be found suffi-
cient to satisfy the lion. Member.—(Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON confessed that the answer
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had given was
more satisfactory, than, judging from the state of
the Tieasury Bench when the Hon. Gentleman began
his speech, be could have possibly expected.—(A
laugh.) He thought the statement of the Right
lionourable Baronet, as' !far as it regarded
the ttrtion of the Hon. Gentrem. an was entirely satis-
factou. He was glad that the Right Honour-
able ;Baronet had consented to present the •pa-
persi and he thought that the utmost discretion
ought. to be allowed to the Government in the
selection of those/papers which they might think
right to present. Ile'thougllt that the utmost deli-
cacy ought to be exhibited not to offend the
feelings of independent nations.—(Hear.) The Hon.
Member for Bridport istalalluded to what he called
the late event in Greece—he would not call it
a revolution, because it was the act of the
Greek nation, claiming those institutions to which
they were by right entitled. Their conduct during
that event, in his opinion, reflected the highest
honour on the people of Greece.—(Cheers.) Per-
sons had said that the Greeks had been so many
centuries under slavery and oppression, that they
were not yet fitted for a constitutional form of
government. The event had proved how undeserving
they were of that opinion.—(Cheers.) He believed
that all nations were fitted for constitutional go-
vernment—(Cheers)—and if there were any nations
not fitted for it, the ,only way to fit them for it was to
give them constitutions—(Loud cheers)—for if they
were to wait until the enemies of popular constitu-
tions pronounced that the people were fitted to
receive them, he feared they would have to wait along
time.—(Cheers and laughter.) Nothing could be more
honourable to the Greek nation than the mode in ,
which they had brought about the establishment
of their Constitution—(Cheers)—and the conduct of
the King of Greece during this trying state -of '
things had been infinitely honourable to him. Now,
the repugnance which he had evinced to the
granting of a popular Constitution, might have ren-
dered it probab:e that he would have endeavoured
to have escaped from the necessity of submitting
to that Constitution which had been forced upon him ;
but he had throughout acted with the utmost
sincerity and good faith, in a manner which
reflected on him the highest honour. He agreed
with the Right Honourable Baronet that there '
ought to be the utmost discretion exercised
by the Governments of France and England in any
advice which they might think it right to
offer to the Greek nation at the present
time.—(Loud cheers.) Although he admitted that
they had a right to advise, yet the utmost for-
bearance ought to be shown in the exercise of that
right.—(Cheers.) He agreed with the Honour-
able Member for Bridport that the attention of
those Governments ought to be directed to that
article in the Greek Constitution which provided that
the Sovereign should be of the Greek religion. If
the succession should fail in the line of King Otho, the
Crown would descend to Leopold and his descendants,
who would be Catholics. This regulation would he in-
compatible therefore with the rights of the succession.
He trusted he should not be told that this incompati-
bility, might be got over by the adoption of the Greek
religion by the successor to the throne of Greece,
who might be a Catholic. He trusted that neither
England, nor France, nor the Greek people, would
expect that a person brought up in one
particular
.profession should change it merely to step
into a foreign throne. He thought it would be in-
consistent with the treaties by which the succession
to the throne of Greece was regulated if that article
of the Constitution should be ratified. But there was
another objection to this article, collateral and consti-
tutional ; for if all the branches of the House of BA.-
varia should fail, and if that article should remain in
force, where would the Greeks have to go to find a
successor to the throne ? They would be driven to
the Royal Family of Prussia, one of the three: par-
ties to the conference by which the independence
of Greece was established, and it was a fundamental
condition of that alliance that neither one of the
three Royal Families should give a successor
to the throne of that country. It was
their intention to make Greece independent of
these three Powers ; therefore it was another
objection to this article of the Constitution
that it would drive the Greeks to choose a successor
from the Imperial family of one of the contracting
parties to the treaty. He trusted the Governments
of England and France would use the influence they
were entitled to exercise to obtain a modification of
this article. He was delighted to hear the tes-
timony that had been borne by the Hon. Member
for Bridport to the conduct of that distinguished
officer and diplomatist, Sir Edmund Lyons. Through-
out all the transactions in which he had been en-

gaged in Greece,. his conduct had been equally
honourable to himself and advantageous to the coun-
try. They had appointed him under peculiar respon-
sibilities. Though he was distinguished as
an able officer, he had never before been engaged
in diplomacy, and he was glad that the result had
justified their judgment. He was glad that the Right
Hon. Baronet had agreed to give the papers moved
for. He thought that the Hon. Member would exer-
cise a•sound discretion in leaving it to the Government
to make such a fair selection as they should consider
might be done without detriment to the interests of
the public service.
Sir R. PEEL trusted that the House would not
draw any inference from his silence on particular
points of the Greek Constitution. The religion of
the successor to the throne of that country was a point
that had not escaped the attention of the Govern-
ment. It had occupied its full consideration,
but he believed the Noble Lord would concur with

him in considering it to be unwise to enter
upon the discussion of that question at present.
The Noble Lord took some credit to himself, and

justly so, for the appointment of Sir Edmund Lyons.
He hoped he would admit that the Government-were
entitled to some credit for having retained in office

the person appointed by their predecessors, and re-

posed in him that full and entire confidence to which
he was entitled. It was an honour to the profession
to which he belonged that he should discharge his du-
ties with such discretion, fidelity, and ability.
Sir H. DOUGLAS concurred entirely in some of
the views thrown out by the Noble Lord, the Member
for Tiverton, and especially in reference to the main-
spring of the revolution in Greece. It was
not a revolution in the ordinary -sense of the
word. It was one of those military pronun-
ciamentos of which they had seen so many of late.
He begged to remind the House that the great
object of the Greek revolution was the full and entire
separation, spiritual and temporal, of the Greek
Church from the Patriarchate of Constantinople. By
the first article of the protocol which he held in his
hand, it was provided that the Greek Church should
recognise no spiritual head but our Saviour, Jesus
Christ; and he thought that the Noble Lord must
be well aware of the serious inconveniences that
had arisen in the lonian Islands for want of this
separation. When the late Government were in
power, the connection with the Patriarchate of Con-
stantinople impeded many contemplated acts of im-
provement; and at length the Greeks became so im-
patient of dictation from that quarter, that he was
obliged to order the British Ambassador positively to
insist that the separation should take place. All
the struggles of Greece would be unavailing, all
her blood had been shed for nothing, if she was still
to continue in spiritual subjection to the Patriarchate
of- Constantinople. The Noble Lord had truly
stated upon what family the election was
likely to fall if the monarchy became elective.
These were the great objects for which the Greek
people were struggling, and with which the people of
Europe; and the whole civilised world would sympa-
thise and agree with them.
Sir R. H. INGLIS thought that the proposition of
the Noble Lord would come under the term
of what might be denominated ultra-liberal.
He thought th• conduct of Sir Edmund Lypns was
quite free from the slightest imputation of blame, and
that no appointment had ever been made by the Noble
Lord which was so unobjectionable as that one.
In his opinion, that gentleman was entitled to repre-
sent England and its interests, not only on
account of his uniting the high character of an
English gentleman with that of an eminent officer,
The Noble Lord had said that the three protective
Powers were entitled to claim a Constitution for
Greece. More than that, the King himself had ten
years ago promised to give a Constitution, and it
was by virtue of that pledge he continued to govern
that tine and glorious country. He believed that a
grosser system of tyranny was exercised in that country
during those ten years, than in any other country in
Europe for a century. He would not stop to inquire
whether what had happened on the 15th September was
worthy of the name of a revolution ; but it was of
such a. nature as to recommend anything even bear-
ing that name to him. He should not go along with
his Gallant Friend in saying that it was a military
movement. He believed the revolution was prepared
by the scarcely endurable despotism of the King—
(Hear, hear)—and that the soldiers shared, but did
not lead, the feeling of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. DOUGLAS explained.
Mr. B. COCHRANE replied.
The motion was then agreed to.
THE PORTE.

Mr. M. MILNES, in rising, according to notice,
" to call the attention of the House to the present
state of criminal jurisdiction over British subjects
within the dominions of the Porte," said he must
found his justification for bringing forward his mo-
tion on the enormous practical importance of the
question. He knew how very few Members took any
interest in what were called foreign affairs, proceed-
ing from circumstances on which he would not then

dilate ; and when to these circumstances was added

the one that there was no representative of the foreign
department of the Government in that House, and
that any one wishing to bring forward such a motion
could not do so without great trouble to the Right
H. Baronet at the head of the Government (Sir
Robert Peel), he should not have felt himself
authorised in his present course were not
his object one of great acknowledged importance.
The inhabitants of Malta were an industrious popu-
lation, and so were the inhabitants of the lonian
Islands; and could it be expected that they
would not do all in their power to obtain
the regeneration they looked for ? He
traced the treaties that had been made between
eastern countries and the nations of Europe, from
the time of Charlemagne to the days of Henry IV.
of France, showing that the jurisdiction over
delinquents was exclusively vested in the Consuls of
the nation to which the culprit belonged. Having
obtained these stipulations from the Porte, ought they
not to have submitted them to some competent autho-
rities of their own. He was astonished that nei-

ther the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) nor any other
person in office, had proposed a remedy for these evils.
He begged to remind the House of the case of a
Dutchwoman who was killed by a Burmese in Malta.
In that case there was no means of adjudication except
by sending the prisoners to England for trial, and he
was informed that all the expenses of the witnesses
were paid, and that they received two dollars a day as
compensation for their loss of time.—(Hear, hear.)
In another case an injury had been inflicted by an
Englishman upon a Turkish subject. Although, ac-
cording to the letter of the capitulation, that prisoner
might be given up to be judged by the Ottoman
Porte, the practice was completely the other way.
He was sure the Government would say they directed
their attention to the subject immediately after they
came into office, and that they passed the Foreign
Jurisdiction Bill. He thought the Government
might establish a Court in Malta for the trial of those
offences, as one was established in Trieste. The
subject had continually been brought before the
Government at one time or another—they had
acknowledged the evil, but took no means to remedy
it. He now hoped they would show a determination
to correct so great an abuse, and with this view he
begged to move an address to the Crown in accord-
ance with the words of his motion.—(Hear.)

Mr. HOPE said, as he understood the Hon. Gen-

tleman who had :just addressed the House, his com-
plaint was, that the Bill which had passed last session
gave powers to the Government, but they had failed
to bring them into sufficient operation. He had re-
ferred to documents—amongst others to an Order in
Council, and certainly Orders in Council were no-
thing unless they were made to apply to cases. But
this he (Mr. Hope) maintained had been done.
Under all the circumstances of the case he thought
the Government were not justified in interfering in
this matter.

Dr. BOWRING thought the authority which
might with propriety be exercised in one place,
might not he applicable in another, and, therefore,
this matter was involved in no ordinary difficulties.
In some parts of the East the British Consuls exer-
cised almost supreme influence over the Sovereigns,
whilst in others no grievances could be redressed.
He thought that the chief thing which was wanting
in this matter was to establish some code which
would lay down the great outlines of legislation,
and which would give the British Consul certain
definite powers. He hoped that such a consular code
would be speedily formed, and a good means of work-
ing it adopted.

Sir R. PEEL agreed with the Hon. Member that
there were many difficulties surrounding the question
of providing a remedy for those evils. One of the
chief difficulties would he felt in carrying out the
decisions of those tribunals. He felt aware that
the spirit of the present age was against
the infliction of the punishment of death, except in
cases when it was required as an example against
great crimes, and such was also the feeling of the
present Government. He thought this measure
might have a tendency to lessen in the eyes of foreign
nations that estimation of the principle which above
all others was most prized by England, that any
person accused of a crime should have every means of
defending himself. Her Majesty's Government had
considered this matter deeply, and were sensible of
the evils which at present prevailed, and when such a
code as would be likely to remedy them could be
established as one fit to be adopted by this great
country, both the Hon. Member for Pon tefractand Hon.
Members opposite might depend upon it no time would
be lost in its application.
Lord PALMERSTON said if a satisfactory ar-
rangement had been made with respect to this matter,
it was not because. it had not occupied the serious
attention of her Majesty's late:Government. With re-
spect to what the Right Hon. Baronet had said on the
subject of capital punishments, he (Lord Palmerston)
acknowledged that it was a subject which was in-
volved in great difficulties, because it would be almost
impossible sometimes to establish that form of trial
upon the spot, which would be satisfactory, or which
would convey an impression of fairness to all parties,
because the criminal would be, in many cases, de-
prived of the advantages of hearing riva nice evidence
and of cross-examining the several witnesses. He
felt bound to admit that the Government had
taken the right course, and that they had
adopted the most satisfactory and judicious
mode of arrangement that was possible, when
all the circumstances were considered. He was glad
the subject bad been brought before the House, and
he hoped that no delay would take place, but that
that circumspect course would be adopted, which
should be suited to the magnitude of the subject, and
that they would be able to snake some more satisfactory
arrangements.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MILNES said this was a matter which re-
quired to be considered-with the most serious attention.
He did not think it was at all necessary to have a
Consul at home. Austria had not one at home nor,
be believed, Russia. Let them follow the French
system. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government, had satisfactorily explained the cause
of the delay of the Consular returns, and he would

not further detain the House, but sit down, thanking
them for the kindness with which they heard him.
After a few words from Sir R. PEEL the motion
was withdrawn.