The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-27 00:00:00

inasmuch as the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of
the Treasury had, in the course of the debate on a
former occasion, accused Mr. Cobden of exciting to the
horrible crime of assassination, and made no satisfactory
explanation or ap 'logy, it is not, therefore, expedinnt or
fitting for this House to discuss any further the lan-
guage used by the Hun. Member for Knaresborough,
which was supposed to reflect upon the Right Hon. the
Secretary of State for the Home Department and the
Hon. Member for Beverley; particularly as the words
complained of were not used in that House."
The resolution,. having no seconder, fell to the ground.
The SPEAKER then put the original motion, which
was carried unanimously.
Lord JOHN MANNERS wished to say a few words
on the resolutions ; bat was told by the Speaker that it
was then too late, as the resolutions had been assented to
by the House.
THE FACTORY BILL.
On the motion that the House go into Committee on
the Factory Bill,
• 31r.• T. DUNCOMBE• rose to move that the
order for committing the Factories Bill (No. 2) to a
Committee of the whole House be discharged, for the
purpose of committing the Bill to a Select Committee.
The...first few sentences of the Hon. Member were
scarcely audible on account of the rush of Members from
the:House. He asked the House to commit the Bill to
a Select Committee, because a very general misunder-
standing prevailed among all classes as to the effect
which " the Ten Hours' Bill" would have on the wages
of the 'operatives. Hon. Members in that House enter-
tained the most opposite and conflicting opinions on the
subject, and the working classes in Manchester and other
great manufacturing towns were of opinion that, so far
froth depressing, the Ten Hours' Bill would have the
effect of raising their wages to a very considerable de-
irree. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State
for the Home Department presented a petition. signed by
62 firms in Manehester, in which 30,000 workmen were
employed. The petition set forth that the measure, if car-
ried, would cause a reduction of 15 to 25 per cent, in the
wages of workmen. The Right Hon, Baronet himself
was of opinion that the Ten Hours' Bill would reduce the

wages of the operatives 18 per cent. The Hon. Member
for Liskeard thought about 9 per cent. ; and Colonel
Torrens, in a pamphlet lately published, considered that
the Bill, if passed into a law, would reduce the wages of
those to whom it referred 25 per cent. In Sheffield,
sixteen of the trades had voluntarily reduced the hours
of labour. In some trades the reduction bad been from
sixteen hours to eleven, in others to ten, and in some to
eight hours, accompanied by un increase of wages
amounting to 15 per cent., and an increase in the number
of hands employed to the amount of one in seven.—
(Hear. hear.) Now he did not think that what had
taken place in Sheffield might not be expected also to
take place at Manchester. They might in Sheffield
work twelve hours if they liked, but by combining
among themselves, they had carried their deter-
mination into effect, and the consequence had
been to raise their wages,- and not to de.
press them. Trade was not so brisk now in Shef-
field as it was a year ago, and yet by working fewer
hours employment was more general and wages were
better. That was not the only evidence he could ad-
duce. Similar evidence was given before Mr. Sadler's
Committee in 1832, which Committee made no report.
Now, he .wanted to have a report on this point. If the
working men were deluded, they should be disabused.
The Hon. Member then read from the evidence taken
before the Committee of 1832 an extract from the exami-
nation of a Mr. Whiting, a manufacturer, who said that
a Ten Hours' Bill would be of the greatest advantage,
and that it would not lower wages. When the people
worked the longest hours wages were lowest. Another
witness stated his opinion that wages would not remain
as they were with a Ten Hours' Bill, that they would
rather rise than fall. Mr, David Brook, of Leeds, was
of opinion that the masters would gain by regulating the
hours of labour, as it would destroy undue competition.
The Hon. Gentleman read other extracts to the same
effect, and the statement ofMr. Samuel Smith, of Leeds,
surgeon, who was of opinion that the reduction of the
hours of labour was necessary to the health of the opera-
tives, . and would not lower their wages, but
the contrary. Mr. Oastler was examined before
that Committee, and gave similar evidence, which he
was willing to repeat, as his opinions were
unaltered. Mr. Oastler was of opinion that in the first
instance the effect would be to depress wages a little,
but that the masters would be obliged ultimately to
raise them. In 1841 there was another Committee ob-
tained by Lord Ashley, but that Committee blinked
this question altogether, and made no report as to the
effect of short hours upon labour.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
if the House would consent to a Committee, he should
purpose to confine the inquiry to that question alone.—
(Hear, hear.) He was told that the Committee would
have the effect of hanging up the Bill for a year, but he
thought it better for the credit of the House, and for the
interest of the operatives, that the Bill should be hung
up for a year than that it should pass with a twelve
hours' clause.—(Hear, hear.) The operatives, who
wished him not to press for the Committee, did so be-
cause they were led to believe that Lord Ashley would
carry his ten hours' clause. But every one in the House
knew that there was no chance whatever of that.—(Hear,
hear.) He begged the House to have this question of
wages decided before it passed the Bill. If the Com-
mittee was an impartial one he would bow to its deci-
sion, and he was sure, that if it decided against the opi-
nions of the operatives, the flatter, however disappointed
they might be, would submit with more satisfaction than
at present. The Committee would put an end to the
unprofitable controversy that was going upon the sub-
ject-and bring it to a conclusion satisfactory to the coun-
try, and beneficial both to capital and labour.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARD said that in giving his support to
the motion, it would be expected that he, who
had givet the strongest opposition to the principle which
his Hon. Friend supported, should state at the earliest
opportunity the reasons for his concurrence. It would
not be supposed that he wished to retract the opinions
he had•expreased, or by a side-wind to get rid of this
Bill. As to the Noble Lord (Ashley) he gave him full
credit for the sincerity of his motives, and it was not too
much to ask the same credit for himself.—(Hear, hear.)
He approved of limiting the inquiry to this particular
point of evidence, which had never been fully examined;
and respecting which there was great difference of opi-
nion both in the House and in the country.—(Hear,
hear.) There were reasons both in the House itself,
and out of it, which rendered it desirable that a Com-
mittee should be appointed. Two decisions had taken
place in the House opposed to each other, and it would
be difficult for the House to retrace its steps without
new ground—(Hear, hear)—and out of the House any
retracing of its steps would be attributed to the worst
of motives, to the influence of the Government, and a
diaposition in the House to sacrifice the working classes
to party purposes. (Hear, hear.) No decision
would set the question at rest. He had been
himself very severely handled by the Chartist portion
of his constituents—(Laughter)—according to the pre-
diction of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Duncombe) who was in
such matters a good prophet.— (Laughter.) He had
told them that one-third of the people of Sheffield
thought the ten hours' theory could not be applied
to -any trade which had to compete with foreigners.
They replied that they regarded the regulations of trade
as the only way of preventing monthly gushes and fluctua-
tions, and to equalise labour, and' that in some trades
they were working ten hours, in others eight hours, and
in some six hours; that wages had risen ; that the
middle classes had been benefited, and paupers taken
into employment.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Dun-
combe.) Ile had now confirmed his Hon. Friend's state-
ment—let him give the answer.—(Hear, hear, and a
laugh.) The system had been in operation only six
months, and he would show what had been the effect in
foreign trade. He met this morning Mr. Muntz, who
asked him, had his constituents all gone mad ?
(Laughter.) He answered, not all, but there were some
for whose sanity he would not answer.e--(Laughter.)
Mr. Muntz then told him that lie was in the habit of
sending to Sheffield very good orders for the United
States. The other day he wrote to them to say that he had
a very large order, but he received for answer, that, in
consequence of the combination of the workmen, it could
not be executed, and the order was accordingly sent to
the Continent; and that important trade was most likely
lost to Sheffield for ever.—(Hear, hear.) He had re-
ceived a letter from Sheffield this day (as we under-
stood) describing the injurious effects which the combi-
nation had had on foreign trade. A foreigner came over
recently, to buy for the Turkish market, but he could
not give the prices, and he went to Berlin. Certainly
the ankles were of an inferior kind, but the same heads
and hands which could make these articles would not
require a seven years' apprenticeship to rival us also in
the best. In his opinion, generally speaking, it was not
for that House to interfere in such matters, but rather to
leave things to find their own levtl. But in the present
instance' he thought it would be productive of the greatest
good if the two parties were brought fairly together, and
if they allowed every single suggestion, however im-
practicable, to be brought before a Committee ; for then
they would have such a mass of evidence as must carry
conviction to every mied, however much it might have
been previously warped or prejudiced. With that view
it was that he should vote fur a Committee ; with that
view he should go into Committee ; not that he (Mr.
Ward) had altered any one of his opinions already
expressed by him upon this subject in that
House. If he might use the term a Committee would
afford the means of comparing notes to classes between
whom there had been far too much standing aloof. He
believed the working classes were too honest and too
just when truths were fairly brought before them not
at once to admit them, and he was satisfied that in a
Committee it would be readily proved that when capital
was fettered workmen's wages must suffer. Capital had
too long been stagnant in the country. When he saw
two of the largest establishments in the world deriving
no profit from their enormous outlay, he was satisfied
that intense suffering must find its way among the ope-
rative classes. There was the establishment of Messrs.
Fielden—the largest in cotton, and that of Messrs.
Ackroyd— the largest in woollen, which in three years
time had paid no less a sum in wages than 460,0004 and
they had simultaneously sent in returns to the income-
tax Commissioners, declaring that during that period
they had realised no profit. He must say he had too
high an .opinion of the working classes to think they
would entertain the hope of any higher wages being
obtained by Legislative enactment, when facts and
figures were fairly brought before them. And for these
reasons it's that, without abandoning one opinion he
had advanced, he now felt it his duty to support the
motion for the Committee now sought for.
Sir J. GRAHAM (who was almost inaudible) was
understood to say, that he must oppose the motion for a
Committee on this subject more especially as he believed
such a step to be inimical to the real interest of the
working classes at. the present time. In his opinion all
Committees of that House ought to be limited to the
discharge of certain functions, which could hardly be the
case in this instance, for the Committee would not be
gathering facts, but eliciting opinions—aduty he humbly
believed much better assigned to' the Hotite itself:Be-,
sides, he knew no instrument of delay so certain as a

' Select Committee of that House, and in this instance he
(Sir James Graham) was most anxious that delay, %hiell
would answer no useful purpose, should be particularly
avoi&d.—(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected that
upon this subject there were antagonistic views strongly
entertained and vigorously acted up to, and even the
very Hon. Members who proposed and seconded the mo•
tion for a Committee (Mr. Duncombe and Mr. Ward), •
differ. d as widely as men could do in their Opinions upon
it—(Hcar, heaty),—and seeing that this Committee would
be the raediunsi not of gathering facts—for of them they
had already all that could possibly be obtained—but of
eliciting opinions, which it was the province of the House •
itself to arrive at, he could see no good whatever, but
rather much of evil, were the motion agreed to. Of in-
formation they had a vast quantity, and. that of the most
elaborate character. Since 1832 they had had Commit-
tees that had taken the fullest evidence that could he
brought to bear upon the subject ; and the Committee
now moved for was not for the particular questien oa
which parties differed—it was not for the effect of A
reduction of wages coincident on the reduction of the
hours of labour. The motion was to refer the Bill itself
to a Committee.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that was preliminary only to
the: consideration of the question of the reduction of
wages consequent on the reduction of the hours of
labour.

J. GRAHAM resumed—That might be a very
important point, taken as a substantive measure, for
consideration, but it was not so brought forward now.
The motion now was to refer the ;Bill to a Select Com-
mittee,
and to that he (Sir J. Graham) had the strongest •
possible objection. Why, in the Committee of 1840, of ,
which Lord Ashley was the Chairman, the subject of
factories and factory labour had been gone into at very
great length—all the leading points had been gone into, -
with the exception of the limitation of wages (as we
understood the Right Hon. Baronet), and this question -
had been excluded, and wisely excluded, by that Noble
Lord himself. It was very well known —not as matter
of opinion, but as matter of fact—that a limitation .of the
hours of labour must lead to a reduction of wages aqui.-
valent to the saving of the raw material consequent on
the reduction' of time. The loss must be compensated
either by a reduction of profit or by a loss on vvages-
But that was not a question to be raised before a Corn'
mittee, for the facts were not disputed. For the third,,
time they had arrived at the Committee on a Bill con-
taining provisions which had been much sought for by ,
the operatives themselves, which had been much desired
by them, which were founded on most excellent autho-
rity and seeing that the measure was ripe for discussion
by the House, seeing that the operatives themselves sent
not petitions for a Committee, he earnestly entreated
the House not to entertain the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe), but to allow the
Speaker to leave the chair.—(Hear.)
Sir G. STRICKLAND said he must oppose the motion
for a Committee, as it appeared to him that -the result of
sending the Bill: up stairs would be to get rid of it for
the present session. 'He, for one, was most anxious that
this should not be the result of their proceedings on this
question, as he looked upon the provisions of the Bill ae
extremely important—even without a Ten or Eleven
Hour Bill—for either of which he was most anxious.
He thought no further delay whatevershould "take place.
He had been a member of Committees upon this suba..
ject, and he could truly say the subject bad been mots
fully discussed,,and there was no necessity whatever for
further information. The particular question now mooted
rested upon opiniou, andifthey were to set about asking
opinions, their labours Would be no further advanceal at •
the end of six months than they were now. He had
listened very attentively to the Hon. Gentleman who
had brought forward the motion -<,Mr. Duneombe), and,
he could only come to the conclusion that not one of thi.
subjects brought forward by him had any reference
whatever to the matter. What it was for them in that
House to do; was to consider the means of bettering the
condition of persons employed in factolies; and to extend
suitable protection to women and chfdren. This was
what they had to set about ; and with -his view of the •
case, he trusted the House would not 'oncede to the
Hon. Gentleman the Committee he had askal for.
Mr. HUME said that no man in that Home or out of
it regretted more than he did that any person male or'
female, should be compelled, by circumstancesao work
more than ten hours a day. But the country lets not
now in a condition to select what should be the•zact
number of hours an individual should work, for we .are
placed in direct and absolute competition with the lahair
market of the world. The only correct principle fir
them to try to act upon, in order to better the aondition
Of the people, to lighten their labour, aid add to their
wages, was to extend the market, to widen the &id for
employ. The question was, whether their interfezence
would not add to the existing evil—want of employment.
He knew of no question affecting the working cleats, -
more important than some which hid already beea..,
settled in Committee, and he could not at all admit tt"'`
this - was not a fair case for such an inquiry. - A.
Committee had formerly been appointed to examine
into the rate of labour and the hours of employments
and so satisfactorily did the evidence bear out his views,
that the Committee came to a unanimous decision
against interference. At that time the working classes,
laboured under the greatest delusion, and attempts were
now being made to mislead them. The Noble Lord had
worked on the passions of that House, and had thereby
hurried the House into a hasty decision. A Committee
would come to a different result ' • and it was for that
reason that he wished to see a Committee appointed.
If England were the only manufacturing country, it
might be all very well to limit competition ; but a very
different state of things in reality existed. In".
stead of being checked or injured, all possible wilt:
ante should be given to our manufacturing interesim
If the House interfered with labour, let them aPPIY t
principle of .interference to all classes. The ma-
nufacture formed but 4, small branch of the industry'.
that
the country. The delusion of the poor people was
they would-receive twelve hours' wages for ten hours
labour. In order to correct that mistake, a Committee
should be appointed to investigate the matter, and.
then he had no fear for the result. He thought it hit
duty to support the proposal of his Hon. Friend, in
der that no delusion might induce them hastily to pass 0'
measure which would have an injurious effect on the
public interests. or-,

- Mr. ESCOTT was surprised that the Hon. Member
should imagine that the working classes expected to be
paid the same amount of wages for a less amount of
work.—(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that any per-
son was under that delusion • the fallacy was one which
did not need the appointment of a Committee in order
to correct it. He should vote against the motion, be-•
cause he believed it to be grounded on an entire fal-
lacy.—(Hear.)
Mr. G. PALMER had not supported the proposal
of the Noble Lord to establish the period of ten hours
as the legal period of labour. If interference was ne-
cessary at all, and he thought the Noble Lord had mado
out that it was, he could see no reason for the proposed
delay. The sense of the country was now, however,
so fully ascertained in reference to this matter, that be
thought it might safely be left to the manufacturers
themselves. He would vote with her Majesty's Govern-
ment for going into Committee.

Mr. VILLIERS said, that if any proof were necessary
to show that caution ought to be used in legislating upon
this subject, it would be found in the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down. The Hon. Gentle=
man said they attached too much importance to the fo-
reign trade, for, said he, only 400,000 persons are en-
gaged in it. That showed the extent of the information

possessed on the subject by not the youngest Member,
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he undertook to
say, that 1,500,000 persons were employed in the cotton
trade alone.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to say
that four millions were dependent on the foreign trade•
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He knew the Hen-
Gentleman belonged to a school which thought that it,
ought to be limited. Did the Honourable Gentleman
calculate what the effects of that would be. The people
who left the agricultural districts for the manufacturing
localities would be thrown back, and the poor-rateS
would be greatly augmented. The question was, ought
' there to be a Committee of: Inquiry. He thought that,
was a reasonable request. It was said that the working
classes and the master manufacturers were in favour of.
the Bill. Had the working classes—had the master ma-
nufacturers sought this Bill ? The lion. Member for
Finsbury said that the Bill as it stood, without a ten
hours' clause, the working classes did not want.—(Hear.
hear.) He was well aware that a Ten Hours' Bill could
not be carried.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see the ne-
cessity for pressing forward the measure. If they de-
lay ed it to satisfy themselves of the truth there would
not be much mischief in that. He said they wanted in-.
quiry. It was said that a Committee was of no import-.
ance except to ascertain matter of fact. That was always
the stock argument brom;ht forward when inquiry was.
to be refused. He had no great opinion of Committees
of that House, but he thought they might be of as much
use in collecting opinions as facts. The Hon. Member,
for Finsbury, who was a staunch supporter of a Ten
Hours' Bill, said he did not think this measure would be
--
!left the working classes. Could anybody then say there
was not a doubt upon the subject? It had been said at,
meetings held on the subject, that wages were low
enough; but one of the necessary consequences of pass-
ing.this measure would be to reduce wages.—(Heart:
hear.) 'Their only object in passing a ten hours' clause
would be to raise the condition of the working classes:
Would it not be wise to inquire whether it would benefit
them if their wages were reduced?—(Hear, hear.) It had.
been said during this debate by gentlemen opposite tl'At
they lived in times when they must interfere, and. -when
there must be constant intervention between the s,,,thooyer.
and employed. They would not confine then.selves to fac-
tories, but would interfere with the reliitions of master.
and servant .in every department.—(Hear, hear.) I(
they only wanted the truth, why should they be afraid;
of inquiry. Seme of the master manufacturers were k"
favour of tITe Ten Hours' Bill, because they thought It
would destroy the competition of the small maanfac"
turers.—(Hear, hear.) The working classes were in
favour of it, because they thought that one. sixth wort
mills would be erected throughout the country--tb,"
was, that the competition would be increased. The
large master manufacturers were in favour of the clause

for one reason,• the working classes for the very 9pP°-
site.—(Hear, hear.). Could both be right ?--(klear'
hear.) Some of them must be wrong. The.adult work-
ing men thought that if females and Children wer.
withdrawn their wages would be increased. That W
a delusion, and for this reason, that unskilled labor
would not obtain the wages of skilled labour.—(Hear'
hear.) They had no reason to suppose that the working'
men, if they did not labour under a delusion, would ask
for that which woull injure them instead of benefiting;
them. The Hon. Member for Finsbury was not afraid of
meddling with the capital of thecountrv. He was confident
the working classes could not establish their Vase, that
a reduction of wages would not follow from a diminutionof the hours of labour. He (Mr. Villiers) a icid not thin
_theycould make out that. He knew the:, miserable con-
dition of millions of the people, and 'no was, therefore;
for. inquiry.—(Heat, hear.) He -would vote fora Ten
Hours Bill if he thought 'the c.-ondition• of the-workli
classes would be improved thueby, and that thek wanes