The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 20, 1.844.

_
"hundred days " _
of Queen Mary had so operated ~n
,!.he English mind at
this moment, as to incapacitate them
fro
Irem doing justice to the Roman Catholic population of
land! When he spoke of doing justice to the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, it appeared to him that in the
speeches of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite there was a
most extraordinary deficiency—one, indeed, nearly as
thgreat as that committed by Hon. Members on his side of
e House.—(llear, and laughter.) On this side of the
ouse we often talk about Ireland as if there were no
Roman Catholics at all in it. On the opposite side Hon.
Gentlemen talked of Ireland as if there were no Protes-
tants in it. Who could have believed, while listening to
the speech of the Noble Lord the Meber erland or that of the Honourablemand Learned
Member for Liskeard, that there were a million of Pro-
testants in Ireland.—(Cries of " No, no," from the Op-
;°uhsgi ti
et
enr)) Say then,
then, two millions.—(No, no, and
then a million and a half.—(Laughter.)
't least, then; an am, ount of Protestant population in !
•
fithzeountry, which, considering their property and in-
ee, they could not entirely disregard, without doing
tejsustiee to that country. Remembering what the Pro-
la tants of Ireland Vl ere, he would ask at whose door !
d dthe evil ? If they were proud and insolent, if they
tyrannise over their Catholic fellow-subjects, who had
thtehhcouraged them in doing so ? What Legislature was it
that had fostered in them this feeling, that had made
her l ed absolutely the spoilt children of England, and
them to regard themselves as the lineal
gese
riclants of the Cromwellian conquerors of Ireland?
re hot say this was the case, but, looking histori-
, "Y at the subject, he should say such was the natural
vOn,
tore 'qUences of the manner in which the Protestant in-
4,,sita in Ireland had been fostered and cockered by
the' ildsaid, therefore, to turn round and deny
se men their proper influence, and to speak of them
th,.„lte,aexistent, as in no degree to be regarded, as if
paredjneld no part of thepublic opinion of Ireland, ap-
?rotest,,t°_,liimas a gross and unmitigated fallacy. The
in iret.nt Church was regarded, beloved, and revered,„ie
found qua, in a manner which, he was sorry to say,
wish dykerY few of its followers in England exhibit. e
4.1 e lt,e could see the members of the English Church
Much attached to it as the Protestants of
Valid were. He therefore could not pretend that
ea'asvould come at once to any of those stringent
ta rapid
measures by which the Church Establish-
snnii,,,w,(nild be at once destroyed. He did not think,
anyb"sing the dream of the Noble Lord to be realised,
lanDie seemed indulging in some such reveries—(Great
4.° ter, occasioned by Lord Howick being, or appear-
e) be, at the moment asleep)—that religious ani-
ofltey Would he at all weakened. Leaving the feelings
tarts Peonle such as they were—he believed the volun-
Cwu Ystein would have the effect of imparting to the
of Ireland all the rancour and bitterness which
Ane'd ;eh found disfiguring the Roman Catholic Church.
the thee consequence would be nothing less than
loi-T of
opinial_ost bloody and destructive conflicts of re tgioiis
On
,thine
that had ever been seen on the face of the earth.
an, "ese and other considerations he would not suppt rt
te;taineasure which would' tend to destroy' the Pro-
whatnt Church in Ireland. If that link were severed
we was to prevent the Irish Protestants from saying
lat„are Irishmen also, we wish to have a national leg's-
pee; what was to prevent them from becoming re.-
c_onuners?--(llear. hear.) He saw nothing to prevent this
WoliltlPlce, but he would say with the late Baron
tine ne would wish to give the Catholicsin.lrel Ireland
Would Y of rights, not an equality of degradation. He
1„
ashot to to secure
.their comfort and dignity; he
theoi be terrified by seeing two or three respectable
of 4gians with purple stockings sitting in the House
of
nils•---(Cheers and laughter.) thought also
of Veit to establish friendly relations with the Court
ther °le- Were the clergy in connection with Romed
still-L,'°uld be just as much chance of their being goo
Ile?I'sOf the Crown as any members of that bot.iy.
to tte'ens With the Court of Rome ought now, at least,
bents renewed. The Hon. Member for Newark had
tlkl,l"ed this subject in the House last session. He
'.Part-o°;tst,..hink there would be any objection to it on the
irotne-,:,''ue Rouse or on the part of the country.--(Ahn
te) -4 Rear, hear," from Mr. Plumptre, and laugh
-
!Peg *r '''uch an attempt, if made, would certainly.f.
It6tainp-et an
caution.—(Laughter.) The Court o
Rome
uact been so long accustomed to be the prey
ourd,lPlomatists, that they would probably receive
the,''vances with suspicion. But if they explained that
theJefelt that the Court of Rome coUld revive in Ireland
for witiland excellent principle of order and conservatism
tainod !eh it was distinguished, and which it had main-
and—, ni every other country in the world except Ire-
kit tkslleh an attempt might be made most successfully.
be rkte education of the Roman Catholics ought also to
tpthe Zcaoridi
ego
and provided for by an additional grant to
Irish °liege of Maynooth, or the endowment of an
44,_e at Rome,which, of the two he should prefer.
344i:Ight that encouragement ought to be given to her
tqil,-"l's present Government, and to every other Go -
111„per.;,lts--(Laughter)—in cases which he considered
overn and more portentous than the existence of any
qtect '"ent•—(Laughter.) It was considered that the
ot.o of the Reform Bill had been to injure the stability
• 144)67e meats in this country.—(Laughter.) It was
itaeasible now that any Government, however well ma-
e°llld retain power for as long as Sir Robert Wal-
uiv,yeas Permitted to retain it.—(Laughter.) It was,b
143, ra;att ers the du
in
of every Government in this country
selves,ll such a train, and to prepare them in
• Way, that whatever the result might be to them-
selves' Whether they were able to carry them them-
hoe °r not, would soften the difficulties to those
tondn'tne after them. The Noble Lord the Member for
wouldn Pledged himself in this debate as to what lie
• Irish ,"° if he became the Minister of the Crown. The
caw, C° if
might reckon when the Noble Lord
them' !e a majority by any means, that he would give.
k,rao th-eiginus equality.—(Hear, hear.) They might
It wag was the very least theywould get.— (Laughter.)
th! t•r- "ue duty of every Member of Parliament to take care
te such an-unhap ' event should take place—(Laugh-
aboutt—,.-vtoteerdo all in hiPpower to modify and soften the evil.
from thicl c'eelirred, not from the events themselves, u
for them —(Laugh-
etzeh
sr:
it.)AGer ifeo:
td.
ra w
being impassioned .
he
../tsmrtiOUld do eatevery.c(llaLdsaughter.) The greatest difficulty in
tshaiyngwas, that he believed her Ma-
as right„ but it was necessary that
as lit just tran in their power to b-ring about
quilly, and with, as he must say,
had
laughter.) That 6.„,? could do so, he hadnot the least doubt; but in their
"4 ,
/erumen" ktAtighter, and cheers.) They (the Go-
they sawt) saw what was right as clearly as you do--
_ reined the evil as truly as you do—and saw what the
sii,Leisittte
so ;ay I:vas as truly as you do, but the remedy was not
IvolVal)le as the evil.--(Opposition cheers.) They
alpt the remedy, but their course would not
her fo as Was proposed by the Noble Lord the Mem-
neansr Sunderland—they would bring it about by
I.vhich, in the opinion of all prudent men, would
Nutt ttainIts object, and, at the same time, would not in-
• 40b1Publie opinion in this country. He warned the
e
fico
of the, and others behind him, from the destruc-
and tthe Roman Catholic Church—(Great laughter)
r.oper,? take care what they did in arousing a " No
..heres' feeling in this country.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Lord,
was a feeling in this country which the Noble
viohri:thd those around, should take care not to arouse by
Why the and extreme declarations. He saw no reason
elagain Y might not have the scenes of 1780 acted over
• eorge; Go he was sure there would be a many a Lord
se, t the ‘aordon to help them on.—(010 They should
1-kt thenuelveS seriously to remedy the evils of Ireland.
• enssir,..llforget all their party differences when dis-
aot ta„b Lae affairs of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Let them
Genti'llt Government with notlo going so far as Hon.
sake e,llen opposite !wishd
1.0 Y allow
ever uirection , as ng as they went in the
• 0.. laugh.) They ought to make
.1. ance for the Government.— A laugh.) Am-
nd
beg Gentlemen
famt.that Hen on the other side(should
they. tr_" uleY were in power they did not go
gavela ulent
e his cordial vote in favour of the Go-
. wttol but
trt beause they did all wishedur for Ire-
-1.:1° culled e did as much as the other Government,
titlthem— tenaselves liberal, had done before them.
ietie4l dlo....relicgious justice to the people of Ireland and
would follow in the course of
V.tnatious hear.) There ought to be a statute of
%grey coup a politics as well as in matters of property.
e not 0.0 .
is on di cussing the w
ter" illskt Tongs of Ireland
,ear, hear.) They looked at the evils of
as escope_s(if they were looking through Lord Rosse sr
the possible ; ,Ilghter)—in order to bring themo
;1414_ its much 10ut they ought to endeavourtoefbelxaspe_
obliterate
to
trit and 4._ as possible; they ought, instead
f I land
the Y to soothe the feelings of the peop e o re
thin proceed them in every way.—(Hear, headro.) Let
nog for 1", in such a vein and they wouldevery
to accord. "eland. They should legislate for Ireland
arrilaw aoc;litto what they thought best, but according
h ration., resent circumstances, and upon such sound
ItPPY grounds as would cure the evils of that un-
kr. At ~r37.---(Cheers.)
tratniwAt-4•lll4AY—Sir, I cannot refrain from con-
an you that I dd not catch your eye in the
Itit
4144141°e because, I should
.be sorry to revent
Casio Irish '
,n sorepresentative,er from addressing the on an
(1,73'.:h0u1a
eesting to his country, but peculiarly
l t II n
to stand in the way of t 0 .
song fore, 70 Pleaded the cause of Ireland with so
• ital which jo'fillow wish to submit to the House the rea-
in doio ueace me in the vote I am about to give.
ified „g so, I am sorry to say I do not feel myself
tbastites fro°4lPPvo_site, wt
rie4 following the course traced out by my Hon.
de-
th all that authority which
right
„11-I:er her INZl?•erable antiquity, not thinking it to
they
tsures
theirsii.)st' Government to go on proposinge
PorY are likel n _
way seeing the mistakes wh h
be ,f)t the
,y tom ake. The grounds on which I such
a05,c,41.0n are these : that I think Ireland is in a
disord7stiatUctory and unsettled state, and that if there
4e the ji-s In that country of which no statesman can
tiece, Yet there are disorders, in the present
laar of Irelan f t
ports 0 which her Majesty s present
.advisers
ti any
Put 0 1:
.edered the cause, and I do not thinokietthraa_t
shof: Lea:duct,. either legislative or a
thedm
disorders Ppreciation of the nature of causes
infer they ," of than country, or of the proper mode. in
iershould be redress,:".l. I see nothing from which to
h Pect
deee the that their p y -;11 be different from that
Y have hP ‘‘‘
soap neasine._ setofore pursued. 1 k forward with
ceivto the state of Ireland---(
oe
hear,
9teere).2`s Hear,
con: a„,,t th • and under those circumstances, ,
tee
o,,coneei,,e uuty of every man to speaK u!"
lendt the whole .oble Friend's motion to go into a Commit-
ithal' doubt House is both a very convenient, as it is, bey
isty
toregard t:3
the
perfectly Parliamentary, course to pursue.
coq is wain° the ti proposition before us, it will not be oeces-
titon of Ireland .e
of the House in stating that the present
.thinklaal. one to inspire alarm and apprehension.
po)rtr utt!tutesfourth part of the United Kingdom. In pro-
bft.
superio than a fourth. In the natural fertility of
iCaeases yor, _ r to any area of equal extent in Europe. It
bigtaa,esty
0014 we_huich hold out more allurements for commerce
Ports s°ldiers, and it is an inexhaustible tinFtiery for
Dire 4" to Ole eecs.) It is a country of far more iMr
if than
all Prosperity and greatness of the em-
tAtietu_altiplied fise°ur,. vast dependencies put together,
WO tous
Indies, ',lmes over—of far more impor,
-• the west our Canadian possessions, together
the Cape, and Australasia added id tlte

• eshole eneire of the Mogul.—( Cheers. ) We knew it is row
governed, not by levee but by fear—(Cheers)—that it is go-
verned as you govern Sinde—(Cheers)—not by the confidence
sf the people in the law, and by attachment to the Constitu-
tion, but by means of armed men, and entrenched encamp-
ments.—(Cheers. ) This is a fact which, if it stood alone,
would fully justify the House of Commons in going into an
inquiry upon the causes which produced such a state of
things in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But there are other evils
in Ireland, a part of which cannot be attributed to the present
Government, and a part of which can be justly laid to their
charge. I do not wish to weary the House by tracing the
origin of those evils; and yet, I think I can
• hardly do justice to the question without casting a
passing glance on them. No doubt when we look at the pri-
mary causes of these evils, we must look riot only beyond the
existence of the present Administration—not only beyond the
time of any living statesman, but to times before the names of
" Whig" or " Tory" were pronounced—to times anterior to
the introduction of the Puritans, to which the Hon. Member
for Shrewsbury, in his very ingenious speech, attributed these
evils—to times anterior even to the Reformation. I think we
may trace the first source of those evils to the manner in
which Ireland became annexed to the Crown of England.
It was a couquest, and a conquest of a peculiar kind. It
was not a mere annexation of Ireland to the British Crown,
which would be a benefit to her. It was not a conquest
like that of France over Normandy, or like that by
which Silesia was added to Prussia. It was a con-
quest of a different kind. It was a conquest known
in ancient times, and well known among rude nations—
it was a conquest of rove over race—it was the dominion
of one nation over another, such as was established by
the Mahrattas over the kingdom of Gwalior—such a do-
minion as Spain established over South America.
That I take to be the first great fountain of all these disorders.
I believe that the very worst of all tyranny is that of race over
race.—( Hear, hear.) I believe that the enmity which has
existed between nations separated by sea and mountain, even
when those nations have been at war with each other, has
never approached, in its most intense bitterness, the enmity of
natiains which have been geographically and locally inter-
mingled, and yet, at the same time, have never been morally
amalgamated. It is the feeling of the Spaniards and the
Moors ; it is the feeling which, down to our own time, exists
among a large part of mankind in regard to the Jews. Never-
theless civilisation can remove this evil ; for in our own coun-
try—a country which formerly suffered under the same species
of misery—we have• seen Celt and Saxon, Dane and Norman,
all fused down, all melted together, and fuming one great I
united people.—(Hear, hear.) This, we might have hoped,
would have taken place in Ireland. I believe it wou'd have
taken place but for the establishment of the Reformation.—
( Hear, hear.) Then came in anew division to strengthen the
old one. The aborigines of Ireland remained true to
the ancient faith alone among all the nations of
the north of Europe.—( Hear.) Then you had im-
mediately a new line of distinction ; you had I
theological animosity called in to reinforce and reanimate the
undying animosity of race: and in this manner it is that the 1
two have come down to our own time. It did unfortunately so
happen that the spirit of liberty in England was allied with that
spirit in theology, which was most widely opposed to the
Roman Catholic Church—it did so happen that the passion for
arbitrary Government, was, during the seventeenth century,
closely allied with a tenderness for the old religion. Such men
as Pym and Hampden, and Vane, and even Milton, afford ex-
amples of the operation of this kind of alliance. Even Milton,
with all his eloquence, while proclaiming the great doctrines of
religious liberty, always made an exception—the religion of the
Roman Catholic. On the other hand, those princes who re•
spected no rights of Protestants in the case of any dissenters,
always respected the rights of the Roman Catholic. James the
First, even after the gunpowder plot, had no repugnance to
the Roman Catholics. Charles the Second was a concealed
Catholic. James the Second an avowed Catholic. In this
manner it commonly happened that their evil was our good,
that throughout the whole of that long contest our slavery arid
their freedom was the same thing. At this very day every-
thing which in the mind of the English Whig is As-
sociated with what he considers the glory of his coun-
try, is, in the mind of ~.a Roman Catholic, asso-
ciated with the degradation of himself and his religion.
Take the name of William the Third—take the name of the
battle of the Boyne, and others which I need not mention. I
never recollect having been so forcibly struck with the differ-
ence as I was on a day which I ought to well remember—the
day when I had the honour of being declared Member for the
town of Leeds. I was in the chair, which was adorned with
orange ribbons ; it was surrounded by men of the strongest
opinions, nothing but orange ribbons were to be seen. I could not
help thinking how anomalous all this would have seemed to an
Irish Protestant. Nor was this all; there was a large orange
flag carried before me, and Sir George Saville, one of the very
first of these who led the way in claiming equal rights fur the
Catholics, sat in the very chair in which Lord Milton sat
after he gained his great victory in Yorkshire. What a
triumph would this display have been considered by an Irish
Protestant over the Catholics. At the same time it was a
circumstance that suggested reflections on the whole of
the history of the two nations.—( Hear, hear.) During
that century twice the Irish population rose against
the Protestants, twice they were put down and
visited with severe punishment. They were put down
first by Cromwell, and then by William the Third. Each of
these rulers, after his victory, proceeded to establish a system
of his own. That of Cromwell was fierce and strong, and
able and cruel. It was all contained in one word—a word
which Lord Clarendon tells us was constantly uttered by the
Englishmen in Ireland—extirpation ! What his policy would
have been if he had lived, we cannot tell ; but his object, un-
doubtedly, was to make Ireland completely a part of England.
William the Third's policy was seemingly less cruel ; whether
in reality it was less cruel, I have my doubts. • The Irish
Catholics were to live, they were to multiply, they were to
dwell on the earth—they were to till the earth—but the Catho-
lic was to be what the Helot was in Sparta—wbat the Greek
was under the rule of the Ottoman—what the man of colour is
at this moment in Pennsylvania. He was to be excluded from
every honour and every privilege. At every step in his path
through life, he was to find himself cramped by some galling
restriction. If he were desirous of military glory, he might
go into the armies of Austria or France. If he felt any desire
to take part in politics, he might plunge into the diplomacy of
Italy or Spain; but if he remained at home he was to be a
mere Gibennite—a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water.
Bad laws badly administered increased the bad feelings from
which they had sprung—and to that period I believe is the
origin to be referred of all those bad feelings arising out of the
relations of landlord and tenant in Ireland, which have lasted
down to our own times, and which have led to such fatal con-
sequences throughout the whole subsequent series of Irisk
history. As to the Courts of Law—as to the juries—they
have existed only for the benefit of the dominant class. As to
the priests, those men who have been revered
as the dispensers of the Christian sacraments, they
have been constantly treated in a manner in which
no man would treat the veriest mountebank. At last there
came a great change over the face of Europe. The French revo-
lution had awakened the spirit of liberty throughout the world.
Jacobitism was certainly not the national ally of Catholicism, but
oppression and misery produce sharp coalitions, and such a
coalition was now tormed. 'I hat third Protestant ascendancy
was put down by the sword, and then it became the duty of
the eminent man who stood at the head of affairs to consider
how he was to deal with Ireland. I must say, though I am
no idolater of the memory of Pitt—that when I compare the
plan which he formed with the policy, either of Oliver Crom-
well or William the Third, I am forced to admit that he de-
serves, over these celebrated men, the praise of great wisdom
and of great humanity. The union of Ireland to England was
part of his plan—an excellent part of his plan—an essential part
of his plan, but still only a part of it. It is never to be for-
gotten that his scheme was one much wider in extent than any
which we have yet seen carried into effect. What he wished
was to unite the hearts and the affections of the two nations.
Catholic disabilities were to be removed. The Catholic clergy
were to be placed in an honourable and independent position.
Catholic education was to be conducted on a liberal scale.
His views on those opinions agreed with those, I believe, if I
am not misinformed—with those of a man of an under-
standing even more enlarged and capacious than his own-1
mean, Mr. Burke.—( Hear, hear.) If that system had been
fully and fairly carried Into effect, it is my belief that the union
with Ireland would have been as secure and as far beyond the
reach of danger as the union with Scotland.—(Cheers.) The
name of the union would have been associated in the minds of
the great body of the people of Ireland, with the removal of
cruel and galling disabilities, and with respect paid to their re-
ligion.—( Cheers.) All that was just, all that was national in
their feelings, would have been hound up with the English
connexion.—(Cheers.) The Parliament on College-green
would have been remembered, as it deserved to be remembered,
only as the vilest—( Hear, hear)—the most corrupt—( Hear,
hear)—the must tyrannical—( Hear, hear)—legislative assem-
bly that ever sat, I believe, on the face of the earth.—( Loud
cheers.) In saying this, I am sure I am not giving any offence
to any Irishman.—( Hear.) I say no more than Wolfe Tone
has said. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman here quoted a passage
from Wolfe Tone, in which it was asserted that there was
nothing in the history of legislation at all bordering on the in-
famy of College-green, and that he did not believe it had ever
entered into the heart of man to conceive anything more
infamous than the system of Irish legislation.) Not
only would the union, if this had passed, have been
associated in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland
with great benefits received—(Cheers)—but those benefits
must have inspired unmingled gratitude—(Cheers)—for they
would have been benefits not conceded to force, but given
freely—(Cheers)—given in the moment of pow er.—(Cheers. )
I am sorry that Mr. Pitt's measures were not carried into
effect, but the Irish Catholics found that they had given away
their independence, and that they had obtained no compensa-
tion in respect of their civil or their religious liberties.—
(Cheers.) The union must now be associated in their minds
with disappointed hopes and violated pledges.—( Cheers. )
Nevertheless, it is not yet too late.—(Loud cheers.) It was
not too late in 1813.—(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1821.
—(Cheers.) It was not too late in IB2s.—(Cheers.) If some
of those men who were tben, as now, high in the service of
the Crown, would have made up their minds to say that which
they were forced to say four years later, I believe, that all the
benefits of the policy of Mr. Pitt would have been secured.—
(Loud cheers.) The supporters of agitation had not been or-
ganised. The Government was under no coercion. That
which might have been given in 1825 might havebeen given with
honour, and might, and probably would, have secured grati-
tude, At length, in 1829, concession was made—lawfully
made—and made without conditions, which Mr. Pitt would un-
doubtedly have imposed. But it was made reluctantly, and
with evident reluctance. It was made confessedly for the pur-
pose of avoiding a civil war. Was this a concession to be re-
ceived with gratitude, or to be received with contempt? Was
it not a necessary effect that it should inspire in the minds of
the Irish people an opinion deeply to be lamented, but one,
with the evils effects of which we are at this day con-
tending ? Could they forget that they had come before
the English Parliament, during twenty-seven years,
as suppliants for justice, pleading the rights of conscience,
pointing to solemn pledges, to the promise of Mr. Pitt: and it
is believed, to the promise given by his Majesty, George IV.,
when Prince of Wales ? The most profound thinkers, the most
eloquent- orators, had toiled in their service in rain. Mr. Pitt,
who had endeavoured to fulfil his intentions towards them, had
been driven from power. Mr. Grenville and Lord Grey, who
attempted to do but a small part of what Mr. Pitt had pro-
mised, were driven from power. Mr. Canning took their
part, and Mr. Canning was hunted to death.—(Loud cheers
from the Opposition.) When that distinguished orator was
laid in hi grave,. then the Catholics began to look for them-
selves—to organise agitation—to display themselves in a strong
and formidable array of force, just keeping within the limits of
the law. The consequence was, that within two years after
that great man had been carried to Westminster Abbey,
brokeneheerted, the feeling pervaded the Roman Catholic body
in Ireland, that from England, or at all events from that great
party which now governs England, nothing was to be got by
reason, and everything by force.—( Hear, hear.) However,
the concession had been made—it deserved no gratitude, and
it pbtained rinse. The organization of agitation was complete.
The leaders pf the people had tasted the pleasures of power
and of distinction, T e people themselves had grievances
enough to furnish a very good pretest ftohratththeerceonwtainsunaontcheinogf
agitation. There want general
ebaer
.g) bly hose,p l a linen
Sir,g olv ecra i
lagaine
rtehmeo
tgea
causesme of
whichal-82 9 .
of the difficulties with which we have now to deal ; these are
_lgHhetarn,obt
the causes in which originated the great mass of that discon-
mntpdo
which comes to us as the
misgovernment from the time of Henry 11.
has come down to.thestates-
ft,rutihteo
it
i u :led i
ild
.tfe mrivoplrltblfia4drn
Iv.,
which
states-
men of the present time io deal 'With' as they best may. And
pow, Sir, to that immediate Cause.. The state of !relied, if
griderstaad it rightly, is a state of diseaser but then it was poi;

a permanent state of disease, it was more a state of paroxysm.
Ireland is always combustible, but she is not always on fire.—
( Hear, hear.) When the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir
R. Peel) came before the public as a candidate for the high
ofecial situation which he now holds, he announced himself
under the type of a physician, and used, if I recollect
rightly, several metaphors drawn from medical science; and to
follow out the same metaphor, I shall say that I think Ireland is
not in a hopeless condition. I admit that it is a patient that
has a bad habit up.in it, but what I say is this, that
her malady is one which, had it been properly treated,
might have been kept off,.and the patient might again regain its
usual health ; but as the treatment, on the contrary, has:been
one of continual irritation, what other could be the result but
to produce paroxysm after paroxysm, each more violent than
the last, and seeming likely, unless some decisive step is I
adopted, to end in terrible consequences. It is, I conclude,
impossible to deny that the administration of Lord Melbourne
was an administration popular with the great body of the
Catholic population of Ireland.—(Cheers.) It is, I believe,
impossible to doubt that the two Viceroys who were sent to
Ireland by that Administration had a greater share of the
affections of the great body of the Irish people than any
Viceroys since the time of William the Third.—(Cheers.) We
know that, during his administration, great perils threat-
ened the empire in other parts ; but we know that
to Ireland the Government could always look with
confidence. —( Loud Cheers.) When designing men had
raised disturbances in England, which threatened insurrec-
tion, troops could be spared from Ireland.—(Loud cheers. )
When an insurrection broke out in one of our colonies—an in-
surrection of a very peculiar kind—an insurrection with which
we might have supposed the Irish Catholics would have sym-
pathised, seeing that it was the insurrection of a Catholic po-
pulation against (he conquering' English people, the Irish Ca-
tholics remained faithful—( Loud cheers)—in all things to the
general Government of the empire.--(Continued cheering. )
Ireland was able to spare troops for Canada.—(lmmense
cheering.) No person, I believe, doubts that if, in
in 1840, by some fatal mischance, a foreign army had
dropped upon the shores of Munster—no one doubts
but that] they would have met with as good a reception that—
they would have been as firmly met as if they had landed on the
shores of Kent or of Norfolk—( Hear, hear)—by a determi-
nation on the part of the whole population to support the
throne of Queen Victoria.—( Hear, hear.) And under what
circumstances, and by what means has this great change
been produced ? Not by any great legislative boon con-
ferred upon the Irish people by the Government—(Cheers)
—for although they have the inclination, they have not the
power against a strong minority in this House, and a strong
majority in the other House of Parliament, to carry any
such legislative measures.— ( Cheers. ) It was effected
merely by the executive Administration—(Cheers)—crossed
and thwarted at every turn, having against it the
whole of the Established Church, and the greater part
of the landed gentry of this country.—(Cheers.)
Yet with such an Opposition they managed to conciliate the af-
fections of the great body of the Irish people, and I cannot help
thinking that if during those six years that Administration had
been as strong in Parliamentary support as the present Ad-
ministration—if it had been able fully and effectually to ex-
tend to Ireland the benefits of the Eritish Constitution, the
effects of such legislation would have been such as to make all
the friends of Ireland rejoice.—( Loud cheers.) But during
those six yearslan Opposition, powerful in numbers, was ranged
against the Government.—( Cheers.) Those Lords-Lieutenant
who were more popular in Ireland than any Lord-Lieutenant
who had preceded thern,:were assailed as no other Viceroys had
even been assailed—(Cheers)--and assailed too for those very
portions of their administration, which were the chief modes
of conciliating the people of Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Every
Legislative Act without exception, which was intended by the
Government for the benefit of Ireland, and which was popular
with the Irish people, was rejected.—(Cheers.) When Catho-
lic gentlemen of high abilities and of stainless character, were
placed in situations which were much below their merits, their
appointment was hailed with the greatest satisfaction by their
fellow-countrymen—(Cheers)—and no wonder that they were
so after 150 years of persecution, during which, doubtless, elo-
quence as fervid and abilities as great as those of my Right
Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for
Dungarvon, had withered in utter obscurity under the
influence of penal and disabling laws.—(Loud cheers.)
During that century and a half of persecution no Irish Ca-
tholic had risen to honour, except by deserting his country;
and when at last a Catholic was sworn of the Queen's counsel,
a Catholic was seated at the Board of Admiralty, the great
Tore party set up such a yell of dislike as Lerd George
Gordon drew from the great mob of his followers. We have
seen some specimens of that eloquence revived; but the
leaders of the party, even at that time, seldom joined in the
cry, though I could mention instances, and one eminent in-
stance, to the contrary.—(Hear, hear.) The leaders of the
party were content, as far as I can recollect, with listening to
it, with enjoying it, with profiting by it.—( Ironical cheers
from the Opposition.) It was not necessary that they should
do more.—( Renewed cheers.) " Are they not aliens?" was
the phrase of an eminent person.—(Loud cheers from the Op-
position.) " Minions of Popery," was the epithet of another.
—( Hear, hear.) While the Catholic priesthood, which is re-
garded with the greatest reverence and love in Ireland—do
we not remember that they were called " a demon priesthood,"
" priests of Baal," " false prophets of Jezebel," feeding at her
board ?—(Cheers. ) But not content with insult, not content
with throwing out and mutilating every measure which would
have been beneficial to Ireland, the Opposition of that day as-
sumed the offensive—they determined to bring in a legislative
measure for the purpose of depriving Ireland of every benefit
which she had derived from the Reform Bill. They brought
in an Act which they called an Act of Registration.
They themselves now admit that it would have been an act of
disfranchisement. I take the description of that Act from
their own lips. They admit now that a neer light has
broken in upon them. Has a single new fact been brought
forward, which has not been urged twenty, thirty, or forty
times over in this House. In point of fact, they do not find
themselves at liberty to ruin the country, except when they
are out of place and want to get into it.—(Cheering from the
Opposition, and ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches. )
Well, Sir, in place they are ; it was very fitting that such ser-
vice should have its reward, and it had its reward.—(Cheers
and laughter.) Several causes undoubtedly concurred to place
them in the situation which they occupy, but I believe the
principal cause to have been the discontent which they excited
in England against the Irish policy of their predecessors. In
their eagerness for victory, they called up a spirit of great
power—a spirit much more easily evoked than laved—the spirit
of religious intolerance.—(Cheers.) It placed them in their
situations, and then their punishment began.—(Cheers and
laughter.) It was pleasant, indeed, very pleasant to get all
the advantage of the sermons of the Rev. Hugh M‘Neile, and
of the speeches of the Rev. Hugh Stowell ; it was very plea-
sant to have their own cause represented by High Churchmen,
and by Low Churchmen, and by Dissenters, as the cause of the
Gospel struggling against that spurious liberalism ss hich made
no difference between religious truth and religious falsehood.
It was very pleasant to hear that their political foes were
the slaves of Antichrist, and were marked with the sign of the
Beast. All this was very pleasant at that time, but when they
had attained power, they found that there were about eight
millions of Catholics in Ireland, whom, either by themselves or
their agents, they had been insulting and degrading. What
was the necessary result? I give them credit for not wishing
to do the smallest harm beyond what was necessary for over-
throw tug the late Administration.—(Cheers.) They regret
that they cannot find a sufficient number of Conservative Ca-
tholics whom they would lie justified in promoting at the
Irish bar, and they express a similar feeling with respect to
gentlemen in this House. But what I wish to know is this—
why are all the Roman Catholics in the empire their enemies?
Who ever heard of such a thing before ? Herelyou have about
eight millions of people; of all sorts, characters, and professions,
peers, lawyers, merchants, peasants--men belonging to every
rank in society.— (Hear, hear.) At their head is the Premier
Duke of the Empire—( Hear, hear)—the hereditary Earl
Marshal—the heir of the Fitzallans and the Mowbrays—
( Cheers)—while, on the other hand, you may go down into
the lowest ranks of Roman Catholics, and find enmity exist-
ing, such as hardly ever before was heard of.—( Hear, hear.)
If, indeed, there was something in the Roman Catholic religion
peculiarly opposed to the general system of the
politics adopted by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite
1 could understand the thing, but that subject was ably
touched upon in my Noble Friend's opening speech.—( Hear.)
Is it the fact that the Catholic theologian is peculiarly likely
to ally himself with the cause of civil liberty ? Quite the con-
trary. Of all forms of Christianity the Catholic religion is
that which attaches the greatest importance to antiquity and
authority, which rests most on the grounds of prescription, and
which, even by its rites, its vestments, and its language, would
seem bound up with Conservative politics.—(Cheers.) Was
there a single Catholic in the army of Fairfax—(Cheers)—and
how many hundreds of Catholic gentlemen came forward on
behalf of Charles the First ?—( Cheers.) When a reward was
put upon the head of Charles the Second did any Catholic be-
tray him ?—(Cheers.) When, at the close of the last century,
attacks were made by republicans upon the old monarchies,
who stood by the monarchy ? The Catholics.—( Cheers.) It
was so in La Vend4e—( Cheeis)—it was so in Spain.—( Cheers. )
It was the greatest mistake that was ever made for Govern-
ment to set itself against the great body of the Catholics. i
All those who are acquainted with Mr. Pitt, and those who
are acquainted with Mr. Burke's writings, from which Mr.
Pitt derived his opinions, know that both Mr. Pitt and Mr.
Burke regarded the Catholics as friendly to monarchy.—
(Cheers.) Nothing except madness in a Government can
possibly account for this peculiarity.—(Cheers.) The dis-
ciples of Mr. Pitt, while they professed to keep his
birthday, seemed little aware of the views which he took on
that subject.—(Cheers.) Now see in what does all this
end. You are forced to bestow your patronage on your
friends—you cannot give it to the Catholics—an antipathy
to your Government is excited—your appointments neces-
sarily go on, and will go on, as far as I can
see, increasing that antipathy, unless Parliament
adopt some final and decisive remedy.—( Hear, hear.)
The Emancipation Act, as far as respects all the favours of the
Crown, is as much a nullity as regards the Catholics of Ireland
as if it never had been passed at all. Of all the boons which
the Right Hon. Baronet promised to bestow upon 'hem in 1829,
they have only received one, and that would not have been
continued to them if the Tory party had carried the Irish
Registration Bill. All that follows is no wonder. The
wounded national spirit, the wounded religious spirit, starts up
and shows itself in a hundred forms, some of which I deplore,
some of which I deeply condemn, but none of which can excite
my amazement, none of which seems to me to be anything
except the national effect of gross mis-government, acting on
strong sensibility. You refuse to admit the Roman Catholic
into the communion of the Constitution, and you wonder that
he finds himself on a narrow stage. Turn wherever he wi 1,
he finds every high place filled, every office in the
hands whom he considers, and not without reason,
as his enemies. What more natural than that people
in such a situation should array against the regular con-
stitutional authorities, the strong defence of their own opi-
nions? They remember—it wouldDe strange if they did not
remember—what their efforts, under the same guidance,
extorted in 1829, and they are determined to try whether
a similar effort may not be equally successful now.
These, then, are your difficulties, and, in my opinion, they
are difficulties of your own making. Well, then, having made
them, let it be remembered that after all, difficulties are the
tests of great statesmen. Eminent men have sometimes brought
themselves into difficulties, and have admirably retrieved their
error by the manner in which they overcame them.--( Hear. )
Let us then see, how, with regard to your difficulties, you mean
to act. First, with respect to legislation. The legislation
which we had last session for the evils of Ireland, was all com-
prised in an Arms Bill—( Hear, hear)—not a measure of con-
ciliation, not worth naming as a measure of coercion; but
simply a measure of petty annoyance.—( Hear, hear.) It was
a measure which, as tar as I could judge, satisfied neither side
of the House. We called out for boons for Ireland, and many
Hon. Gentlemen opposite called for more stringent mea-
sures.--( Hear. t Indeed, if I recollect rightly, one Noble and
Learned Lord bestowed the aid of his counsel on the Govern-
ment by recommending an Irish Coercion Bill, but the
only legislative measure passed was the Arms Diu.
Then, as regards the measures of the Executive
Administration, of the manner iu which they have dealt with
this agitation. I merely mention them to protest, in the
strongest manner, against the statement of the Noble Lord,
that amongst reasonable men there cannot be two opinions
about the Clontarf proclamation; for that the Government had
done everything which it was possible to do to prevent a breach
of the peace.—( Hear, hear.) I say that, from the statement
of the Government, it appears that in the meeting of Friday
the resolution was formed; and could you not have taken up a
pen, and have written three lines, to say that the Government
apprehended a breach of the peace, and therefore that all good
subjects should avoid going to the meeting ?—( Hear, hear.) Is
that It contisitioit which required the weighing of sentences—

j the weighin's of words, when y'su should have been 'weighing
the lives of the Queen's subjects? No rational person will, I am
"ire, venture to say that, if there bad been in the minds of the
' rulers of Ireland a proper sense of the hazard which they were
running, the proclamation would not have been vi-
sible on all hands early on the Saturday morning.
Now, the charge I bring against the Government on account
of these prosecutions, is one respecting the details which have
been mentioned. The charge is this, that the Government
seems never to have considered the nature and character of
those proceedings, and wherein they differ from a common
action at law—a mere qui tam action. It seems to me they
eonsidered nothing but this—whether they would get such a
declaration of law and such evidence of facts as would entitle
them to a verdict and a judgment. Now, in my own opinion.
the judgment in any political ease is hut a small part of that
for which a Government ought to be solicitous.—(Hear,
hear.) I should say that this is the only political case in
which a Government has been merely solicitous for
that alone. What a Government should seek to obtain
ought to be, by an exhibition of justice and modera-
tion, to produce a salutary effect upon the public mind. I
( Hear, hear.) Of course, the law must be strictly observed ;
but to cause the law to be strictly observed is only one of the
main conditions which would make a wise Government insti-
tute
great criminal State proceedings. And if ever there was •
a proceeding in which your justice ought to stand in such a
light as not to be questioned, or to have any prejudices enter-
tained against it, it was the case which you had to try. You
were instituting a prosecution —I feel considerable delicacy in
speaking on the matter in the presence of the person chiefly
connected with it, and that delicacy is increased by the succes-
sion of invectives which I have heard uttered against the lion.
and Learned Gentleman to-night. I regard the end that Hon.
and Learned Gentleman is pursuing as unattainable ; and that
I look with deep disapprobation upon some of the means
which he employed for that end I do not deny. But I would
wish, whilst speaking on the subject, to observe the respect due
to enemies, the respect due to misfortune, and the respect due
to truth.—(Opposition cheers.) It is impossible to deny that
that gentleman occupies, in the eyes of his fellow countrymen,
a position such as no popular leader mentioned in all
history ever occupied.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
Let us consider, too, that the interest with which he and his
movements are regarded is not confined to these islands, it
extends to the Continent. You cannot sit down to dine at
any table d'hote—(Laughter from the Ministerial benches).--
you cannot travel in any steam-boat or diligence,. but the
moment your speech or your accent " bewrayeth thee" as
an Englishman, the first question which the merchant or
manufacturer from the heart of France—which the plain
cultivator, who is not much above the level of our yeomen,
put to you—is, what is to become of O'Connell ?—( Oh,
oh, from the Ministerial benches.) Let those who deny
this assertion take the trouble to read the French journals.
—(Opposition cheers.) I declare this to be a most undoubted
fact. It is an unhappy circumstance, but it is one impos-
sible to dispute, that there is throughout the Continent a
feeling with respect to the relations between England and
Ireland not very much unlike the feeling with which men
generally regard the relations between Russia and Poland.
I do not defend this feeling ; I do not say it is a right
one ; I only assert a fact, which I can prove. And it
is natural that it should be so ; for, in the first
place, not to mention the immense jealousy which
the power of England naturally produces, the with
which anything great and conspicuous—such as the position of
England is—is regarded, the Irish agitation has that in it
which enlists on its side the sympathies of the two great divi-
sions, Liberal and Conservative, into which the population of
France is divided. Its democratic character attaches -to it the
followers of the " extreme left," while its being Roman
Catholic attaches to it the members of the Conservative party.
Thus it happens that on this subject jhere is a variety of
opinions on the Continent, which would not easily be found
on any other question.—( Hear, hear.) I hope and trust that
I shall be believed when I state that I do not mention this for
the purpose of frightening the English Government into
taking any course unworthy of it, but I do say that in a case of
this sort it is of the highest importance that the administration
of justice should be beyond all impeachment—that anything
which would look like an unfair advantage should not be wel-
comed, but spurned away, and considered a greater disaster
than any other evil. Is it a case in which the first opinion on
the question of the jury is that Mr. O'Connell has suffered
wrong in the matter? Is it denied, if the law had been carried
exactly into effect, without fault or negligence, that Mr.
O'Connell's case would not have been damaged ? Has any
person ventured to deny that? I have the worst of one of the
Learned Counsel for the defence, and the affidavit states it,
that twenty-seven Roman Catholics were excluded from the
jury.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Shell.) Take
the Recorder's own statement ; it is very easy to talk about
716 names, or something of that sort, but reduce the
thing to simple arithmetic, and see what it is.—
( Hear, hear.) You were going to call forty-eight names ;
Now what is the 48th part of 720 ? It is 15 ; if those 15 were
Roman Catholics, there was an even chance that there would
have been another Roman Catholic in the 48. But if, as the
affidavit states, there were 27 Catholics, then there was nearly
two chances to one that there would be two Catholics among
the 48, and thus there was almost an even chance of there
being two more Roman Catholics on the list. Now
will any man tell me that Mr. O'Connell has
not in this matter suffered a distinct wrong ?
Will any person say that it is impossible, or even highly im-
probable, that the-result might have been different if it had not
been for this blunder? For remember the power which the
law gives to jurymen is such, that a single juryman, if he is
determined, and has absolutely made up his mind, may have
quite as much influence in affecting a verdict as ail the other
eleven. Is this my opinion alone ? What is the language of
Mr. Justice Perrin, as I find it reported in the papers
favourable to the prosecution. He says, " there is
about this case such gross negligence and failure
of duty that I am not prepared to say it was the result of acci-
dent."—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Shell.) Here
is one of your judges, and you call on us to pay the most pro-
found respect to all that your judges say—here is one of your
judges, who says that " he is not satisfied that this was the
effect of accident." He must know a great deal better
than I do, or than any Englishman can know, what sort
of tricks are practised in an Irish office when the object is
to procure a jury to convict; and he says " he is not sa-
tisfied that this is not the effect of accident." But I will
come nearer home. The Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department, says, and says truly, " We are not responsible for
the case." I know you are not. " I regret deeply that it
has taken place, and I wish it had been otherwise ; for I feel
the prejudice it has created against the Administration of
justice." What has been said on the other side is precisely
what I say ; " a prejudice has been created against the admi-
nistration of justice," which has tainted the whole of
the proceedings. I do not wish for stronger words than
those of the Right Honourable Baronet, but I wish that
the fact were not so; when in a great and important case—a
case upon which the eyes of millions—the eyes of all civilised
Europe was fixed—a mistake had taken place which created
"a prejudice against the administration of justice." I wish
Government had taken a rational view of the matter, and said,
" We cannot avail ourselves of it." Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site seem to think that with respect to striking off the Roman
Catholics from the jury, they have made out a good
case. I am ready to , admit that, in a certain
sense, they have made out a good case. I am ready to take the
facts as you put them. I take it, as you say, that it was an
excellent thing to strike off all the Roman Catholics. But
there is still the question, was it politic in this State trial to
bring different religions and different races to their trial before
a jury of Protestants only ?—( Hear, hear.) It is a plain
questionagainst
tfho
er everyfro
from
manthe beginning
o fcom m o n steon • e.
the I
eknndo w that the
law was on the side of the Government, and my charge
the principles of the law in such a case ; every
what are
proceedings, is with regard to the law. We knew
thing that can
y
create a prejudice in the matter is carefully avoided; we
know what the principle de mediatate linguee is. In the
case of a Dutch sailor, or of an other
jouwrny
raceo f t waelvden half Enogflishmen,
Englishmen. but quarrel might stab an Englishman, he is notleaftlie who,ton,;e tried ibny aa
been in the situation of Mr. O'Connell, he would have been
entitled to a jury half composed of his countrymen ; you are
ready enough to call the Irish Roman Catholics "aliens
when it serves your purpose.—(Loud cheers from the hy a ku ortvy ciofmapnoy se"
alien" hadd of half his
Oppo-
sition.) You are ready enough to treat them as " aliens"
when you think it your interest to do so. But it is only_ when
oing,,tooliefnosr.m"—a j(uLroyntdhat
cheersyou do not
the Onot treat the Roman
caas
possible for any reasonable man to doubt thatinapcpasnassitn
where
the feelings of two sects, of two parties, were
greatly are
i
going
excited against each other, that a jury com-
posedexclusive of one sect, and from one party,
would
not do justice? This is the opinion of a much better
lawyer than I am, for I, indeed, am no lawyer. But why did
not the Sheriff impannel a common jury, which would have
contained several Raman Catholics ? The difficulty in such a
case would have been none, and that the trial would then have
tended much better to the settlement of men's minds, I hay.
not the least doubt. You wished to get a verdict, and you got
a panel, and from that panel a jury, from which no man could
expect justice. And then you got a charge, which
do not mean to say is unprecedented, for the
State trials of the seventeenth
precedents—( Loud Opposition cheers)—and after
better for it ?
you got a verdict, and what are you now
th
Ireland? You say
centduryftefrr urtnhiissh chargesuch
Has it tended to conciliate the people of
Ireland is quiet ; I know that it is so,and
the sentence begins to be executed, and for te will n
th
reasons too, because the Irish people feel a deep interest i
ader,
it
and thee
fate of the man whom they consider their ley
will avoid doing anything likely to place him
in a more
dangerous
mosbte obsovio tuilsl
)i finished
ntyour
its iffi
labours.
By what means can you expect there will not be a very se-
rious will
eompee° s
whent o "position.—( —t
h(eHear,
Court
shallear.
have
outbreak of public feeling then ?—( Hear, hear.) Is it
possible for a human being to believe that that man, who pos-
sessed the boundless affection of his countrymen, while he was
receiving honours from them, and while he was taxing them,
d will at once lose his popularity, when he becomes a martyr ?
I, who am as much attached to the union as any Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, who dislike the means that have been used to
inflame the minds of the people of Ireland against the union—
I feel that Mr. O'Connell will not lose his
popularity. The Right Hon. Baronet himself tell us that he
" a prejudice has been created against the ed-
well
it
loortm informed,
the andp
(power
who
a n d agree
magic
withg
And if Englishmen,the •
Will
friends of
ministration of justice.
is sorry to say
unfairness, what is the feeling of the Irish people ?—a
great
the union, are deeply convinced_ of. the fact that there has been
of
Mr. O'Connell on the question the union, not only
as to its being a hard, but an unjust measure, and
who believed every spee_ch, kyterhauttteared on the sub-
ject as perfectly justifiabl
people who are not too
re we to expect
to be their feelings ?
of Mr. O'Connell's name be just as great when shut up in a
prison as when at large ? But you will not have his personal in-
fiuence, which has been so often, from whatever motives, ex-
ertedlrish people from proceeding to violence
and to prevent the
and extremity. At the same time see what has been the
have dealt with •
manner in which you the agita-
tion ? And now, for the future, as to your execu-
tive measures, they are still to be things of the same sort.
us hitherto were soldiers,
What you gave givenbarracks,
un-
wise proclamations, and unjust
State prosecutions. As to your
legislative measures, we are, it istrue, to have this Bill for the
Registration of Irish voters, coupled_ivit h a Bill on the subject
of the franchise. What provisions those measures are to con-
tainwe know, and can i
we cannot say. All say with confi-
dence on this subject, is that it s impossible for you to legislate
ujion it at once with credit to yourselves, with benefit to the
Irish people.—(Opposition cheers.) All we can with con& '
dence say is this—the measure you mean to introduce must either
destroy the last remains of the
or the last remains of your own character and existence.
With respect to the Landlord and Tenant Commission, I say
nothing upon the subject until we have the report. Nothing
has yet been done, and when we shall have the report nobody
can say. But I eel that I have been trespassing too long on
the House.—(Cries or 6, No, no," au4 " Goon.") On sow
future occasion perhaps I may have , Opportunity of going at
length into a subject of the gravest and 'lightest importance—
I mean the question
• of the Established Church in Ireland.
and all I will do now is to take some short notice of the man-
ner in which that question has been met on either side, for I
must say, that from gentlemen who vote }with the Qoyernpaept;
• have h d
and profess to follow then"; w? 4 . filtelarations Of libes
sort oi liberality which is not
rality--I mean that accompanied
by a vote worthy of the speech. From the Ministers who
have vet spoken we have had nothing, so far as I have ob-
servecf. The Established Church, if we are to judge
from them, will not be touched.—(Hear.) As to
the Noble Lord (Stiinley), I
the speech of ,
cophss Oat it nnfo4ll4o for me not to feel

I surprised at the case he attempts to make upon the.
question. What were the Noble Lord's arguments in support
of maintaining the Established, Church in Ireland ? One was
that in 1757, and in 1792,:arel some other }ears which the
Noble Lord mentions, the Roman Catholics, when asking for
a removal of the present penal laws and disabilities under
which they laboured, said that they did not complain of the
Church Establishment. Did any body ever hear of such a
reason for keeping up such a system'? Is it not perfectly
notorious that in the ordinary progress of affairs men suffering
under any grievances, and feeling some more strongly than
others, ask to get rid of the most severe? When they
vi ere suffering from other penal laws, and did not
ask for a removal of the Established Church. was
that a reason why they did not desire its removal ?
Why, I could give the Noble Lord an instance in his own
practice in that respect. Does not every one know that in the
agitation for the abolition of the slave trade, all its advocates
disclaimed in the most earnest manner the intention of seeking
to emancipate the slaves ? Such was the language of Lord
Grenville, of Mr. Pitt, of Lord Howick (now Earl Grey), and
of Mr. Fox, when he brought in his Bill on the subject. Mr.
Wilberforce used the same language ; and, in 1s:07. the present
Duke of Northumberland proposed to introduce a Bill to also-
. lish slavery. Mr. Wilberforce pulled him down, and said
" our victory is to be over the slave trade." And when the
Noble Lord brought in his B 11, in which he developed that
plan with his usual ability, in which he pointed out all the hor-
rible evils he was going to remove, what would he have said if
a person had got up in the House, and declared with Mr.
Pitt and Mr. Fox that his argument was to be an
argument against the Noble Lord carrying out his
views ? This, happily, the Noble Lord has refuted by his own
practice. The Noble Lord said much about the impossibility
of repealing the sth article of the Act of Union. Now the
fourth article of the Act of Union fixed the proportion of the
number of Members for Great Britain. The fourth article was
altered, and who was it that brought in the Bill to effect that
alteration ? The Noble Lord.--( Cheers from the Opposition.)
Well, then, to come to the Noble Lord's argument respecting
the Roman Catholic oath. If the Noble Lord were present I
should be inclined, with all the great personal respect which I
entertain for him, to be a little more severe, but now I shall
merely confine myself to his argument in the case. When was
such an argument ever heard of? Put it even in the strongest
way, and it amounts only to this, that the Roman Catholic
Members should walk out when we were going to vote
on the subject of the Church Establishment. But when we,
the orthodox Protestant Members, are present, what is the
course to be adopted ? Is a man not to vote on the subject,
because a particular individual in the House is tied up by an
oath on the question ?—( Hear, hear.) Are we other
640 Members, who are not so tied up, not to
discuss the question ? If the Noble Lord has no other
argument than this in support of his system, he has a very poor
case indeed. I hope the Government will deal with this sub-
ject in a larger and mere comprehensive manner, and as a
matter worthy its high position. The Right Hon. Gentleman
at the head of the Government will not come down, I am confi-
dent, to discuss such a question with a piece of an old journal in
his hand, and tell us something about 1792 and 1797—he
will feel that he must do battle upon this question, as it
has reference to an institution, as it is either a good or a bad
one. What are the ends for which an Established Church
exists ?—( Hear. ) Does the Church in Ireland accomplish
those ends ?—( Hear.) Can a Church which has no hold on
the great body of the people be other than useless or worse ?
Has the Church in Ireland that held on the people ?—( Hear.)
It has existed two centuries and a half, and has she yet suc-
ceeded in making such a great conquest among the Irish
people. that she can be called, like the Church of England, or
the Church of Scotland, the poor man's church ? Has she
induced the body of the people to join her, or has she excited
in them a reverence, or a respect for the State ? These are
the national grounds on which a Church is supported, and not
the views advocated in a speech made many years ago, and in
ha
apetition
dpresented
persecuted
people,te reign o
who,
o, of
under George
such
I.uchl 1, a
wb an n-
laws as
t huos e
of the penal code, did not ask for the removal of the Established
Church, and did not even dream of asking for a seat in Parliament.
But, Sir, I have said now quite enough to entitle me to
give the vote which I am going to do. I think myself that
those evils have been brought upon us by the false and
pernicious policy which the Government have pursued, and
I do not think there is any possibility, that while their sys•
tem is followed in Ireland that country can be peaceable.
I also think it utterly impossible that till Ireland is peace-
able and well affected the empire can enjoy its proper dig-
nity, and that which is perhaps better than dignity—secu-
rity. 1 am confident that in every negotiation that
may be concluded, whether with France respecting
the right of search, or with America respecting
the settlements in the Pacific, however the negotiators may
avoid mentioning the subject, the remembrance of the state of
Ireland is, in the minds of those negotiators, constantly de-
pressing the one and emboldening the other. And so it must
necessarily be with this greatly extended and mighty empire,
well provided though it be with every means of offence and de-
fence. This empire has at her command means which no
other empire that ever existed in the world possessed. She can
stipulate terms of peace to the Court of China. She governs
Australasia and Caffraria. It is in her power to drive from the
seas the commerce of every country on the globe, and again
blockade all the ports of Europe, from the Baltic to
the Adriatic. It is in her power to guard her
Indian empire against every attack. But, amidst
all this mass of power, there is one vulnerable point
noear to her heart in which some forty-five years ago a
blow was struck which had nearly proved fatal. For the
revival of such a state of things again Parliament is re-
sponsible, but for my part of that responsibility I clear myself
of it, by the vote I am about to give in favour of the motion of
my Noble Friend, and I earnestly hope I shall have on that
occasion so large and respectable a party as may satisfy the
Irish Roman Catholics that they still have friends in England,
and that they must not relinquish the hope of protection from
the wisdom and justice of the Imperial Parliament.—( Loud
and long-continued cheers.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he fully appreciated
the eloquence of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, but at the same time he felt it to be his duty to allude to
the motion which the Noble Lord had brought before the House.
He (the Solicitor-General) would ask what had induced the
Noble Lord to bring that motion before the House ?—( Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches.) lie should take the
answer from what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, when he said that the object was to pass a vote of censure
on her Majesty's Ministers, for their general conduct of affairs
since their accession to office, and above all for their adminis-
tration in Ireland, and in the case of the State prosecutions.
Such being the undeniable result of the Noble Lord's motion,
he (the Solicitor-General) would ask, would not the effect of
it be to give encouragement to those who violated the
law in Ireland—(Cheers from the Tory benches)—and to
those who were disaffected towards the Government?
He thought also he had a right to complain of the particular
time at which the Noble Lord had brought forward this mo-
tion, because although the verdict of the jury had been brought
in, no sentence had been, as yet, pronounced, and he now, by
his motion, called upon the House to give an opinion, not
alone as to the legality of the matter, but also as to its policy.
From his (the Solicitor-General's) close observation of the
course of those trials to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
alluded, he should say that no man with an unprejudiced mind
could pronounce them to be otherwise than perfectly fair, and
that the jury had pronounced the only verdict which, could be
come to from the evidence before them. Let them look to the
state in which Ireland was at the time when those prosecutions
were established, and then ask themselves whether the Govern-
ment were not fully justified in the course which they had
adopted. In October the prosecutions were begun, and
at that time, and for months before, the Repeal
agitation had been in most active operation, and the
Repeal Association had been carrying out its objects in a
manner which tended to the subversion of all order. In
alluding to the Repeal Association, he felt it necessary to say a
few words—the more so because he was not present when the
Noble Lord spoke of this body. He (the Solicitor-General)
would say that the objects and intent of that Association were
to effect ostensibly a repeal of the union, but he felt convinced
that the result of such a measure would, if carried, be an ulti-
mate separation of the two countries. The Noble Lord had said
that the Association was like any other, and should therefore
have like toleration.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the
Imperial Parliament had the right to repeal an Act of Parlia-
jocomeofhse?;:s)uit
—d;
nhe
aribeoenlundddt hota
the
eetpHhcwe oer
raumosg
waht
tnhnthletnuhtAgbe
her
(If es
trti
odwome
fte
that
wtseahtheceti
tcrlrhnet amon ihane
et
nub
tArow,edco_bytuys,
dwwa hpsh
sli
Criesaoce hech
oamhftt
ee
dhi must be
considered as permanent from their nature_( Cries of Oh,
oh )—and one was the Act of Settlement, by which her Ma-
jesty held the Crown, beside which he would place the Act
of Union. He thought that no body, associated for
the purpose of altering the basis upon which the Mo-
narchy and the Constitution rested, could be legal.
It had been said that the law had been strained in Ireland,
but it must be borne in mind to whom the cards were given.
They were given to men who were absolutely at the disposal,
and under the command, of one of the parties who were after-
wards indicted, he meant the Hon. and Learned Member for
Cork (Mr. O'Connell). They were men at his disposal and
under his command, and were ready either for action or in
action. They were ready to remain quiet and bide their time
as they were directed, or to muster for action at a given
signal. All this was attended by the assembling in different
parts of Ireland of hundreds of thousands of people marching
in order under their repeal wardens as officers—mustering on
the ground in such numbers that anything like discussion or
deliberation was wholly impossible. At these meetings the
leaders of the people hurled defiance against the Government
of the country. They not only spoke defiance, but they even
threatened war, saying that they were ready to meet the people
of England—that they were ready for war if the people thought
fit to engage in it. Were such things, he would ask, to be
allowed to continue ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked whether it
was consistent with the well-being of the country for the Go-
vernment to allow such a state of things to continue? It had
been said that the law had been strained. Now he fearlessly
put it to any Hon. Gentleman whether such a state of things
could exist in any country calling itself civilised—could it ,
exist in a country where the law was properly vindicated? He
thought it could not. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down said that the difficulties of the Government were
to come, for if they attempted to enforce their sentence on
Mr. O'Connell, there would be an outbreak in Ireland. If
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had violated the law the
Government would be neglecting their duty if they did not en-
force the law. Her Majesty's Ministers finding that such
was the state of things in Ireland decided that they would not
come to that House for additional powers, but that they would
trust to the force of the common law for restoring order in
Ireland. In consequence of this the late prosecutions were
instituted. The Right Honourable Gentleman who had
just sat down had said the law adopted in Ireland in the
late trials was not the usual or ordinary law. The Right
Honourable Gentleman said there were precedents to be
found in the seventeenth century but not since. The
Noble Lord opposite had designated it as " judge-
made law." With respect to this expression of the
Noble Lord he could only say that if the Noble Lord
meant that the indictment had been formed upon the common
law, as declared and recognised by successive judges from the
judgment-seat, he (the Solicitor-General) perfectly agreed
with him. The Noble Lord said he was no lawyer, but the
wo
mamn do n ol oa nws toi
ft u
Et i on ng
aonf d thisas
convince
h
which the lives, the property, and the freedom of the people of
enoughim othf atthteh elao
this country mainly depended. But the Right Hen. Gentle.
dcNeoocublnaltrereyliartnodd recognised by the judges, was the security upon
man who had just sat down, had said that no precedent for the
law, as laid down in Ireland, could be found since the seven-
teenth century. Now, he (the Solicitor-General) found an
indictment which ran in almost the same words as the late in-
dictment in Ireland, and this indictment was prepared in the
'year 1795. The persons on that occasion were convicted, and
the sentence of the Cowl of Queen's Bench was imprison-
ment; Lord Keopm at the time being Lord Chief Justice,
and Mr. Justice Lawrence and Mr. Justice Ashurst were
the counsel. He could come even to later dates. ,
He held in his hand an indictment, which hays
been preferred by Lord Campbell when he wits' Attorney*
General under the Noble Lord- (Lord'd, Russell) Govern- '
spent. That indictment was for a conspiracy of a precisely
similar nature to the one in Ireland. The form of the indict- '
merit was almost in words the same, and upon it the defendants
were convicted in this country, and were sentenced to impriscuse I
ment and fine. Why, since he (the Solicitor- General) had
held the office he at pregent Uad the honour to fill, it had been
his duty, at the last special commission in Stafford, to direct an
indictrdent of a precisely similar kind. The Magistrates had
committed the defendants for high treason, but he (the
citor-General) did not treat the case as one of higie treason,
but indicted the parties for co4spiraey:' 'vvo of those parties
were convicted; arid were 'noise udder sentence. This was an
indictment in 'England, against persons of comparative
Obscurity. And was it a reason, because the person
wasa man of eminence] and therefoie 11464

to have -an effect upon the persons he addressed— was it because
he was a man of eminence that lie was to be relieved from a
prosecution ? - It was this that-made-the prosecution the more
necessary. The Noble Lord and several Hon. Gentlemen had
said that the act of which Mr. O'Connell had been convicted,
was done in the face of day. Now, he (the Solicitor- General)
would make one remark as to thelawfulness of those proceedings.
He apprehended that it was a sufficient answer to the Noble
Lord to say that the question had been under the consideration
of the Court possessing the highest criminal jurisdiction in the
country, and it had been decided by the unanimous concurrence
of the judges of that Court, that the form of the proceedings
was according to the law. But it was said that Mr. O'Connell
had not been guilty of a conspiracy, for the Noble Lord said
that conspiracy was always secret and dark. Why, the same
argument might be applied to the cases of conspiracy which
had been tried in England. The indictment against the
Chartists was for assembling together great bodies of the
people, and for addressing them in seditious speeches. A
conspiracy—a political conspiracy —might be dark and secret,
as, where p twer was in one hand, and the object
was to transfer that power to another. It would
be conspiracy if an attempt were made to excite
the people to rebellion and resistance, or by attempting to in-
timidate a Government by a display of masses of the people, or
the physical force of the country. The course of proceeding
in the two cases must be wholly different. The parties worked
by different means. They assembled large masses of the people,
they published seditious placards, and made seditious
speeches. Their object was to inflame, to agitate,
and madden the people. It was plain that this was conspiracy.
These acts were so directed as if they were intended to
date the Parliament, and all Ireland was filled with tumultuous
meetings.—( Hear, hear.) It was for these offences they were
tried and convicted. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down had said, that if there were anything unfair in
the trials it would deprive the verdict of all moral effect.
With respect to the unfairness of the trial—the first thing in
importance—was the formation of the jury._( Cheers.) The
Government might have proceeded with a common jury. But
that would have precluded the traversers from the privilege of
challenging the jury; and it was the opinion of the Govern-
ment that a special jury would be liable to less objection. On
that account'express directions were given by the Government,
that it shmild be a special jury, in order that both parties
should stand upon equal terms.—(Hear, hear, and great
laughter.) Then, when they came to the fact of striking the
jury—he thought that there was uts ground of complaint.
Instructions were given by the Government that
Catholics should not be struck off as Catholics,
but that the same objection, was to apply equally
to Protestants and Catholics. There was nothing from which
it could be interred that there was any intention to insult the
Roman Catholics. How could it be, that out of a list of
717 qualified persons the passel was struck, whereas the old
panel consisted of only 308? But it was said, upon the other
side, that it was impossible to have a fair trial by jury in Ire-
land. Nothing so severe had been said on his side of the
House.—(Tory cheers.) It was proposed that when a Ca-
tholic was to be tried the jury were to consist of half Pro-
testants and half Catholics. Why, if the statements of gen-
tlemen opposite were true, the consequence of that would be
that there would be no verdict at all. There had been a great
deal said ofthe omission of some names from the list of special
jurors, but it had been clearly shown—indeed nobody denied—
that the omission was a matter of „mere accident, and that the
person through whose negligence the mistake. occurred, was
himself a Roman Catholic. -
SHELL--Oh no, indeed.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Then if the Right Hon.
Gentleman knew who was the guilty person, he ought to name
him.

Mr. SHIEL—I only said it was not a Roman Catholic.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would repeat, that if the
Right Hon. Gentlemen knew who it was, he ought to ,accuse
him openly in that House.
Mr. SHEIL made an observation which did not reach the
gallery, but which was followed by laughter and cheers.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—If the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman made the charge, it was one which was directly con-
tradicted by all of those who had arty thing to do
with the conduct of the prosecution, and of whom
several were Members of that House.—(Tory cheers.)
He had heard harsh comments made upon the conduct
of his Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, but upon
a careful review of his oonduct he (the Solicitor-General) had
seen nothing from the commencement but a great willingness
to accommodate the accused, and he never opposed them un-
til they showed a determination to evade the trial if the forms
of law would avail them for that purpose.—( Cheers.) He
consented in all stages to postpone the procedings whenever the
application for postponement had a reasonable pretext. In his
address to the jury he showed the greatest temper and modera-
tion—(A laugh)—as well as the most consummate discretion,
as a man representing the Crown in a grave prosecution.—
( Hear, hear.) The speech of the Solicitor-General
was also remarkable for its temper and discretion,
and the entire absence of any wish to press upon
the accused. He did not think that the accusation
of unfairness came gracefully from the Noble Lord who
brought forward this motion. It had been admitted by those
who followed the Noble Lord en the same side that he had
failed, and wholly failed to substantiate the charge of unfair-
ness. He (Sir W. Follett) would ask, did not a grave re-
sponsibility rest upon him and upon those who, supported this
motion ?—(Loud cheers.) He wished to make a remark on
the charges made against the Government. When they were
told by Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen opposite that they
did not redress the crying grievances of Ireland he looked, but
looked in vain, for some tangible charge. When it. was said
that since the present Administration had been in power they
had not consulted the feelings of the Woman Catholics, he
asked them to cease from mere assertion, and to give him one
tangible charge.—(Hear, hear.) They gave him none—no, not
one. —(Cheers.) The only thing they even attempted
was to say—(but they never attempted to prove)—to say
that their administration of patronage had not been equal be.
tween the Catholic and the Protestant. Now he ventured to
say that in the mind of every Member of the Administration,
there was the strongest and most anxious desire to maintain a
perfect system of equality between Protestants and Catholics.
—( Hear, hear.) And here again he would ask for an instance
wherein this rule had not been followed out. Tell him an
instance where the Government had bestowed an office upon a
Protestant where a Catholic equally competent could be found
to fill it. The Noble Lord (Russell) had talked about the
Master of the Rolls. Why the man whom the Government
had made Master of the Rolls was Attorney-General in the
Administration of which the Noble Lord was a leading Mem-
ber.—(Cheers.) He was a man of the highest talent, and he
asked if there was a Roman Catholic then at the bar who for
one moment could be put in competition with him? —(Cheers. )
They could not find one—they could not name one. Why,
then, what did they mean by bringing these charges
of unfairness against the Government without one tact
to support them ?—Loud cheering.) Let them bring
one instance of supposed unfairness or injustice, and he under-
took it should be answered.—(Cheers.) But he must, before
sitting down, say a word upon another point. When they were
told that their measures, as far as they went, were good, but
that they would be of no avail, and that no measure would be
of use in restoring permanent peace to Ireland while the Pro-
testant establishment existed there—when he heard these sen-
timents uttered and cheered as they had been Ili Gentlemen
opposite, he was anxious to know on what authority they were
made.—(Hear, hear.) For he knew that the 'heads of the
Catholic Church and the leaders of the Catholic body had ab-
solutely repudiated the idea of taking anything from the State.
--( Hear, hear.) They would take nothing from the State—
they would have no endowment. What then did Honourable
Members mean by saying that they would never be satisfied
till that Church, whose endowments they sought not, was de-
stroyed.--( Hear, hear.) Was it indeed true that though they
did not seek the honours or the revenues of the Protestant
Church of Ireland, yet that the price of peace was to be its de-
struction.—(Cheers.) If that were so. then there would not
be peace—(Cheers)—but he, for one, did not believe it—
(Cheers)—and he ventured to hope that the measures which
from time to time the Government would propose would
have the effect of giving not only peace, but
happiness and prosperity to that country.—(Cheers.) He
did venture to hope that when it was known in Ireland that
the trade of agitation would no longer be permitted—( Cheers )
—and that the Legislature was willing to lend an ear to all
matters of reasonable complaint, a peaceful and prosperous
tranquillity would be restored to Ireland, and life and pro-
perty would have the same security as in other portions of the
British empire.—(Loud cheers. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL briefly explained; and on the
motion of several Members, all speaking at once, the debate
was adjourned till to-morrow (this day).