The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-17 00:00:00

was, that the house shouid be very cautious in coming
; to any conclusion regarding compensation to naval men,
hecauso Ifoii.littitGalitint Officers on hoth sides
of the Hume might corijiiiiitly press on the House the"
adoption of certain measures, it should be remembered
that they %lore nut the beat nor the most impartial
judges, and that, like metnbera of other professions, they
wen: apt, in a strong feeling for their own, to disregard
those principles of rational economy- by which the House
should be governed.—(llear.)
The whole question had •
been referred by the late Government to a Commision,
of which the following distinguished persons were Mew-
ber—the Duke of Wellington, the Duke of
Richmond, Lord Melville, Lsrd Minto, Lord liowia
Lord Hill, Mr. Labe:where, Sir E. Kemp, Sir Hussey
Vivian, Sir H. Hardinge, Sir -G. Cockburn, and Sir T. -
Hardy. The Commission also examined a great number .1
of officers. The very question which the Hon. and
Gallant Officer had brought under the consideration of the
House' was brought before the Commission, namely, the '
policy of constituting a retired list of captains. for the
purpose' of clearing the list of a number of offieers of
very advanced age. The Hen. and Gallant Officer had
red an extract frost the report of the (7ounnissioner in
reference to the iinpoliey of continuing the retired list
of that class of admirals which had got the name of •
' yellow ; but he had not read that partevhich had an
immediate bearing on this proposal to constitute a re-
tired list of captains—doubtless the omission was not
intentional. The Commission said it did nit occur to
tlism to suggest to her Majesty the adoption of any
other changes with regard to the captains' pay and at-
loveances ; various propositions were made to them to re-
commend the establishment of a retired list for officers
of this rank, as eell as of other ranks. The whole of
these propositions had relation to the claims arising out
of seniority of service ; but. as it did not appear to the
Commission that this change was calculated to advance
the public interest to an extent at all commensurate to the
charge which would be entailed on the public revenue,
they refrained from offering any recommendatien to . her
Majesty to extend the principle of a retired list- beyond
the present practice, except in the cases of mates and
commanders. This very proposition, therefore, had
been brought under the consideration of the Commis-
sioners, and they stated that they saw no advantage in
constituting a retired list. The report bore the signa-
tures of Lord Minto, Lord Melville, Sir Charles Adams,
and his Right Hon. Friend Sir George Cockburn. Ile
hoped that under these circumstances the House would
not constitute itself a tribunal to decide this question;
that they would recollect that the Commissioners had
considered the question in its comprehensive bearings,
on other branches of the naval and military services, and •
that they would not imply an opinion at variance with
that expressed by the Commissioners.—(flear, hear.)
hear.) In consequence of the deference due to the opi-
nion of the lion. and Gallant Officer, the Treasury had
given this matter the fullest consideration, and it' they
hesitated, it was not on account of the expense, but ftom
a sincere conviction that the measure, if' adopted, would
not produce the effect which the lion. and Gallant Offi-•
cer anticipated.--(Hear, hear.) That it would not clear
the list of captains ; that it would positively do no good
whatever except by enabling particular officers to exer-
cise their discretion as to whether they would retire or .
not. He pronounced that the Gallant Officer would not
Sir C. NAPlER—Certainly
PEEL—c(olmlepanrisohre)a,
wish to make the retirement compulsory.
by Rear-
r.rletire-
ment, the strongest opinion had been expressed
Sir ROBERT PEEL—A
Admiral Griffiths, who said that it would involve a
breach of engagement, and give great pain, whilst the
saving would be quite insignificant.--(Hear, hear.) This
point would be brought under the consideration of the
Treasury, and it was clearly shown that the retirement
of 100 officers, would not be of any avail whatever, in
clrearing the list. The retirement of 150 captains would
entail an expense upon the public of about 26,0001. If
the retirement were optional what would be the effect ?
Our oldest officers, the captains of 1808 and 1809 were
not those who would take advantage of the
option. Entertaining the hope that the next
brevet would give them the rank of admiral, it was not
to be expected that they would retire.—(Hear, hear.)
The officers who would take advantage of the retired
list would more probably be the captains at the bottom
of the list, who despaired of ever obtaining the rank of
admiral.—(Hear, hear,) That; was the precise intima-
don conveyed to the Treasury on the part of the Board
of Admiralty ; and of what advantage, he asked, would
such retirement be to the public ?—(Hear, bear.) It
did appear to him to be very improvident to offer this
boon, when the oldest men, who expected to at-
tain the distinction of the flag, would, in all probability.
reject it ; and when only young men who had no
chance of obtaining, fur a considerable period, the
rank of admiral were likely to accept the 11. per day on
the list of retired captains. It did certainly therefore
appear to him that the advantage to be gained by the
public was not sufficient to compensate for the expense
of the retired list. If they created this list now, when
six or seven years had elapsed, they would have to go
through precisely the same operation for the purpose of
again clearing the list.—(Hear, hear.) He did hope
that that House, having before them the opinion of the
Commission, which was composed of the most eminent,
men in both services, would not be induced by their na-
tural predilection in favour of naval men, or by the ad-
mission which must be made as to the state of the
navy with respect to those who occupied the higheit
rank in the naval service, to express an opinion which
would in the least degree fetter the judgment of her
Majesty's Government. The opinion which they enter-
tained on this subject was in exact conformity with that
of a Commission which had been appointed for the ex-
press purpose of investigating it. Nothing could be
more painful to himself and to his Right Hon. Friend
than the performance of this imperative duty of guard-
ing the public purse against demands, the yielding to
which would be unaccompanied with any public advan-
tage. It was not to be argued that because improvident
arrangements had been made in other cases, they should
make an improvident arrangement in the case under
consideration. lle hoped the Manse would disregard any
such precedents; that they wouldconsider the question on
its abstract merits, and above all that they would con-
sider the policy of leaving questions of that nature to
those who had' to take a comprehensive view of thern.
He should say nothing whatever as to the policy of per-
mitting the sale of commissions; that was a professional
question, with which he had nothing to do. If he were
asked what was the most effectual mode of preventing an
immense accumulation of aged officers, he would say a de-
parture from the principle of seniority, and the selection
on the part of the Crown of officers for promotion who had
shown themselves best qualified for the public service.
—(Hear, hear.) He knew that there was. great jealousy
in the profession on that subject. He thought that
seniority was, on the whole, the best principle that could
be adopted, affording the greatest security against the
abuse of power and patronage. -He believed that the
principle of selection from inferior ranks of the profes-
sion of officers to exercise command would shock the
feelings, and perhaps the professional prejudices, of
many men whose opinions were entitled to great weight.
Let them depend upon it that the creation of the retired
list of 100 captains would do nothing whatever to clear
the list. If he were convinced of the propriety of
adopting the proposal, he would not be influenced by
the consideration of ten or twenty thousand pounds a
year, but he had a firm and sincere belief that it was
not a remedy for the evil in question, an evil consequent
upon the long duration of the war. If the House
adopted the recommendations of naval officers in this
instance, they must expect to have the same roman.
mendations with respect to marine and artillery officers.
Each service would adduce very good reasons why
similar advantages should be extended to itself. He
trusted that the Executive Government might be con-
sidered to have a due regard for the interests and honour
of the different branches of the service, and he hoped
the House of Commons would continue to leave these
matters in their hands. He hoped that tbey would not
countenance the proposal of the Gallant Officer, which.
while it involved a considerable expense, provided, in
his opinion, no remedy whatever for the evils which he
admitted the Gallant Officer had proved to exist.
Captain BERKELEY said he most fully concurred
with the Gallant Officer as to the grievances which
.he
had brought before the House. The Right Hon. Baronet,
however, at the head of the Government, asked them to
leave such matters to the Executive. That was always
the case when naval officers were under consideration.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet could see no
great advantage in making this retired list ; but he be-
lieved that every naval man must perceive that it would
he attended with ve:y great advantage. Much was said
about old and experienced officers. He believed that
the term " old and experienced officer," was very tut)ell
misapplied. Ifa man became experienced by remaining
on the shelf, totally unemployed, there were many
officers who were entitled to that description. It had
been stated that many midshipmen were not allowed to
sleep when the vessel was in sight of land. He would
ask, if they were called upon to blockade a lee shore on a
dark night, under such circumstances, could they possi-
bly be efficient.? The Right Hon. Baronet said they
ought not to seek good things because others had
obtained them. Did they not regard the navy
as their best' bulwark in time of war ? Why,
then should they mike the navy the exception,
and not give those who belonged to it the same optima
of retirement which was extended to the other service?-.-
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet said it was the
ardent wish of every man in the navy to obtain the flag.
He would take his own case. lie had been promoted at
the end of the war in 1814, and during thirty years he
had only been able to serve six years and six months,
because he had not interest enough to obtain a ship for
a longer period. He would ask what chance had he of
obtaining .the flag ? Certainly none, until he was per-
fectly incapable of performing his duty in case the flag
were offered to him. He thought that the present sys-
1' tem had the effect of setting officer against officer, anti
pa 101
loi wt
ci nagi
mtohtei
vaeps
.p o i
em
feenl tt se toon
fibdee n flt
hu ea nt ct eh de
psorolefelyssibony
thought that practice was not so likely to. be done as
of' the
totally unconnected with, and independent!rem g giveu
things were now managed, as if commissions were
ne must,
vbayritohieisicihoann.
he thought the
sooner
' sooner or later, be attended to, and
sooner the better; and he felt sure that the House would
changes
sd
Gefallant Governments. Member
forTtrw
do wisely in acceding to his motion.
Sir G. COCKBL'RN, who was almost inaudible in
the gallery, said he thought the Gallant Officer had not
brought this matter fairly
before the Rouse, The
nature of the naval service of this country was such,
that during the time of war a. vast force must
be maintained, and consequently then a great tnany
officers were called into service ; but durng the time of
peace, when a reduction must necessarily take place;
those officers must be placed upon [the retired or half-
pay list. The officers for service, according as they May
be required, wed is en from the list of names z but no
one could f'7,l; a moment suppose that all whose names
-st',"":l., upon this list could be employed on active service.
The Gallant Officer had mentioned the names of several
officers,• but out of the number to which be had alluded
there were only two who had been employed in active
' service, and_those two only fora couple of year& IP