The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-12 00:00:00

THE SLN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FF.TIRITARY

years back the state of the poor in that part of the
kingdom was in a deplorable state. Various remedies
were proposed, but ultimately her Majesty's Govern-
ment, in preference to adopting any of them, ap-
pointed a Commission to inquire into the matter.
The Commissioners were invested with full powers
to investigate the causes, and to suggest such
remedial measures as might strike them as being advis •
able to meet the exigencies of the case. The Commis-

sioners had detailed the results of their inquiry in a re-
port which had been laid before the House. They fully
went into the evidences they had taken on the subject,
and suggested a remedy. Now the question he wished to
ask her Majesty's Government was whether they intended
to bring in any measure for the alteration or amendment
of the Poor-laws in Scotland, and in the event of their
entertaining such an intention, whether such measures
would be founded on the recommendations contained in

the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire
nto the subject, and which was laid on the table of the
House last session? .

Sir JAMES GRAHAM was not at all surprised that
- - _

the Noble Lord, as a Scotchman, had taken in this ques
tion the interest which he evinced, for he (Sir James
Graham) was satisfied that he could not exaggerate its
importance.—(Hear, hoar.) Since the Noble Lord—
although he had not made an argument—had made a
statement, perhaps he (Sir James Graham) would be
excused if he made one also. The Noble Lord and
the House would remember that the code of _ laws

to which the Noble Lord's question referred
had lasted more than two centuries, and it had
been cited as an example of the wisdom of the
Legislature, and until a recent period it had been
cited as an instance of the prudence, caution, sobriety, and
—as he might say—the morality of the Scottish people.
—(Hear, hear.) If a change in the law were proposed
by any Government, he would advise that Government
to exercise the utmost caution before it recon.mended
the Legislature to make any change in that law
under which the people of Scotland had risen to great
pre-eminence in the arts, in science, in literature, in com-
merce, in agriculture, and in productive power. The altera-
tion of such a law required the utmost caution; at the
same time, he (Sir J. Graham) must say, that the anxious
attention of the Government had been directed to the

evidence which had been collected by the Commission.
He was himself of opinion that, on the whole, some
legislation in reference to this subject was required—
(Hear, hear)—but at the same time he was not able to
say at present the precise time when her Majesty's Go-
vernment would be prepared to submit any measure on
the subject to the House—for it was necessary that such a
measure should be prepared with great care. He was
not able to say what time might elapse before they
could be prepared with the measure which they should
consider perfect, and therefore he was not in a condition
to say more than that he thought it would be his duty to
bring in a Bill on the subject of the poor in Scotland in
the ceurse of the present session.
The conversation then dropped.
PRIVATE BILLS.

A number of Members were then excused from serving
on committees on private bills, on the ground of being
above sixty years of. age.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER applied
to be excused from serving on account of official duties.
—Agreed to.
Sir J. GRAHAM applied for exemption on the same
grounds.—Agreed to.
RAILWAY COMMITTEE OF THE BOARD OF

Trade, with an addition to its number. if the
report in question were carefully examined,
and the evidence which was very voluminous, were
carefully road, the House would find a premeditated
scheme for conveying from that house to the Board of
Trade the right of deciding in the first instance, and
indeed, for good and all, upon all questions con-
nected with railways that came under consideration.
One very important and extraordinary part of the re-
commendation of the Board of Trade to this Com-
mittee of their own manufacture was with respect to the
publication of the decisions in the Gazet Owing to this
publication all the confusion, injustice, speculation, and
gambling which ensued had taken place. had this publica-
tion been deferred until a complete statement could be made,
none of these evils would have taken place. He begged
leave to submit for the consideration of the House a
document, which he felt convinced would have great weight
in influencing the decisions of Hon. Members, and would
induce them to give their support to the motion he was
about to make—that the Bill be repealed which was
now law in the respect he complained of. He was about
t:o lay on the table of the House a statement of the rates
of speed and of the fares charged on the railway between
Edinburgh and Glasgow. The distancewas 46 miles, and
the highest rate of speed 27 miles an hour. There were
four classes: the charge on the first class was Bs., about
2d. per mile, the rate of speed 27 miles an hour. The
second class, which travelled at the same rate of speed,
was 6s. On the third class, which travelled at the
rate of 15 miles an hour, the fare was 2s. 6d. ;
on a second description of train, on the third class, the
fare was 2s. 6d., and the rate of speed fifteen miles an
hour; on the fourth class the rate of speed was fifteen
miles an hour, and the fare ls. 6d., or four-fifths of a
halfpenny per mile. Thus, in this class, forty-
six miles were performed for ls. 6d. The
low rates of fare, and the comparatively quick
travelling was owing to an effective opposition, not in
the shape of railway, but from a canal, and thus the
greatest boon was conferred •on the humbler classes,
whilst the mode of travelling was at once safe
and convenient, and the shareholders amply recompensed.
He did not wish to lead the House to suppose that he
intended to say that his countrymen in Scotland had any
greater desire to benefit the poorer classes than the rail-
way proprietors in England. The same feeling actuated
the railway proprietors both of England and of Scotland.
They neither of them cared one straw for the lower
classes where money was concerned. If they could
screw money out of them they would.—(A laugh.) They.
were, in that respect, like the First Lord of the Treasury,
who once a year took out of their pockets all he could get-
The next railway to which he would draw the attention
of the House was the railway between Glasgow and
Greenock. The distance was twenty-three miles, and it
was performed by the fast trains in fifty minutes. The
rate of the first-class was ono penny farthing per
mile, and for the whole twenty-three miles they
paid 2s. 6d. The second class, the carriages of
which were closed and nearly weather tight, and which,
except that they had no cushions, were nearly as com-
fortable as those of the first class, ran at the rate of
three farthings per mile per passenger, the charge
for the whole distance being Is. 6d. The third
class, which travelled at the rate of thirty miles
an hour, carried passengers at the rate of a halfpenny a
mile. They went the whole distance in fifty minutes,
and charged one shilling. The working men in
his neighbourhood frequently went to their work
by this train. When the men had more lei-
sure and less money, which, until the last
six months had been unfi irtunately frequently the case,
they went by the fourth class, which travelled at the rate
of seventeen miles an hour, performing the whole dis-
tance in one hour and fifteen minutes, at the rate of one
farthing a mile, charging aixpence for the whole dis-
tance. The House would understand that railway
travelling was conducted -at a cheaper rate, and
with greater comfort and safety to the pas-
sengers, and in better carriages than it was in most
of the railways in England. Ile was not aware if cer-
tain returns which he had moved for in relation to rail-
ways had been laid on that table. His Noble Friend, the
President of the Board of Trade, had promised that they
should be so, but he believed that they had not yet been
laid before the House. Ile would next draw the atten-
tion of the House to the railway between Edinburgh, and
Greenock, which united the Atlantic ocean with the.
German sea The distance was seventy miles, and the
first class performed that distance in two hours and
twenty minutes, and the fare was 10s. 6d. The
fare of the second- class was 7s. 6d., being at the rate
of 2d. a mile ; by the third class, the fare was 55.,
by the third class, No. 2, it was 3s. 6d., and by the fourth
class it was 2s. So that, if it should happen that the
Queen should visit Scotland next year, as he hoped
she would, if she came to his side of the country
her Majesty could be conveyed by railway from
sea to sea, in two hours and fifty. minutes, for 10s. Gd.
There W.IS another advantage—sailors might pass from
port to port, a distance of 70 miles, for 2s. He would
just state to the House the difference that existed in the
fires between Edinburgh and Greenock, and those be-
tween Bristol and Exeter. By the Edinburgh
line, the first-class fare was 10s. 6d., but on
the Exeter line it was 17s. The second class on
the Edinburgh line was 7s. 6d., and on the Exeter line
I Is. 9d. By the third class in Scotland the charge was
55., and on the Exeter line it was ss. 9d., but upon this
line they had no third class No. 2, or any fourth class at
all. Ile believed that the penny-a-mile system had been
rendered unavailing by the course which had been pursued
by railway compahies. He believed the third-class trains
were invariably started at the most inconvenient hour
for the working classes. On those metropolitan lines
upon which persons could travel from one end to the
other and back again on the same day, the third-class
' trains were so arranged as to prevent passengers re-
turning on the same day, The consequence of this ar
rangment was, that the working people, if they required
, to return on the same day. must either go by the second
or first-class carriages. This, indeed, was part of the
plan of all railway companies, by which they were striv-
ing to obtain a vast monopoly. (Hear, hear.).
' This had been shown in the amalgamations of
railway companies which had taken place, and which
were being projected. The Hon. Gentleman then read
an extract from the Railway Times of the 16th of No-
vember, 1843, on the subject of railway amalgamation.
Now he (Mr. Wallace) was there to contend that amal-
gamation was against the interests of the public.
IHe was the advocate of competition, and he
did not object to competing lines running in a
' parallel direction to existing Companies. In
order to promote a competition between lines of
railway, he should propose that the companies should be
required to give in tenders of the cheapest rate of con-
veyance ; and referred to the course adopted by the
Earl of Eglintoun with respect to the directors of the
line between Glasgow and Ayr. There were three dil-
-1 ferent ways of securing comp( tition if they would only
set honestly about it. And if no man voted against him
who had an interest in railways, he should be sure to
carry his resolutions. In a notice he had given, he had
alluded to evidence given on this subject last Year ; and
he would now advert to the estimates published in a
pamphlet entitled " Railway Reform," Which appeared
anonymously, but was written by a gentleman named
Galt, who had done him (Mr. Wallace) the honour of
calling upon him. This gentleman made several calcu-
lations, founded on the reports of railway directors
According to these calculations the amount for carrying
a first-class passenger ought to be 24. Bd. for every Hun-
dred miles, for the second class Is. 3d., and for the third
10d. This was calculated upon evideace which no one
had contradicted, nor did he believe any one was pre-
pared to contradict it. Railway matters, in his opinion,
ought to have been submitted to a different tribunal
than the Board of Trade. A Commission ought to have
been appointed to inquire into railway projects,
and then the Board of Trade would have been em-
ployed in a very different manner. Large masses of
minerals were at present conveyed over some lines, and
this he thought was extremely objectionable, because it
made railway travelling inconvenient, and not unfre
quently endangered the lives of passengers. NoW,
he thought railways running through populous
districts, or coming . to such places as Lon-
don, ought to be excluded from carrying
goods of a heavy description. He did not object to the
carriage of light goads or luggage, but it was exceed-
ingly unwise and inconvenient that coals, stone, or the
produce of mines, should be suffered to pass over
the same line as immense numbers of passes,
gers. Ile thought the Board of Trade would have
been well employed if they had considered the effect
of changing trains and carriages at the different
towns where any particular line terminated. In his
opinion, there ought to be a uniformity of carriages, in-
stead of, as at present. changing the carriages at an
intermediate station. He had always looked upon rail-
Ways as public property, but the companies with which
he was acquainted had conducted them merely as
private speculations. Now, a railway was most certainly
public property, and public property too, of an im
portant character, and ought to command the increased
attention and vigilance of the Legislature. No sooner,
however, did a company obtain its sill than the
comfort or convenience of the public was ne-
glected ; and nothing thought of but what was termed
" turning a penny." Now this, everybody must admit
ought to be well Wised after by the Legislature, for
Comparies would then not be suffered to take:an undue
advantage of the public when they found out there was no
othi r means of conveyance but their particular railway.
He would say that in justice and common sense the eoun-
try ought to insist on that competition which they had a
right to demand, and which they might have had at first.
The volume which he held in his hand had been lent to
him. It contained the report of the Committee of last
session, and other important matters relating to rail-
ways, and as there were 250 railway prajects coming
before the House, that book would be exceedingly
useful, and he was very glad to see that it had been
printed. Competition was not altogether new in rail-
ways. It had been tried, and with every success, by
running the same trains and engines on different lines.
Perhaps it might not be known to many Members of that
House that the Grand Junction and the Birmingham
Railway Companies had agreed to allow each other's
carriages to run over both lines. No inconvenience had
arisen from this arrangement, either to the companies or
to the public. The House bad an example by which
the public could be greatly benefited. That proposal was
not novel to the House of Commons; he held in his hand
a Bill which was brought in on the 13th of June, 1836,
by the Hon. Member for Inverness. This was for the
revision of the tolls, and it was received with great
favour in the House, and a promise was given that the
attention of the Government would be directed to the sub-
ject, but since then it had been put off from time to time.
In the year 1837, a Bill was brought in by persons who
were then in as high places as those were who brought
in the Bill of last year. He believed that Bill was
brought in by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Taunton. There was a clause in that Bill of very
material moment; and, had the -- Government not
abandoned their own proposal, they would have a dif-
ferent state of things -at that moment. What he pro-
posed was, that an experimental set of railway car-
lieges should be constructed and placed under the ma-,

I negement of the Post-office, so that it might be ascer-
tained with certainty what was the cost, the rate of ra-
pidity of the carriages, and the beat mode of conveying
goods and passengers, The Hon. Gentleman then re-
ferred to a speech made by the Hon. Member for Inver-
he read an extract.
Direse'nituirethlyecoynecatrirlrBe3d7infrm
that which he
which he had heard
with great pleasure ; and he would be glad to find there
were many more of the same opinion. What had been
done by the Act of last session ? That Act bound them
to protect for 21 years all the monopolies which already
existed ; making no allowance for the increase of
population, which could not in that period be much less
than seven or eight millions. Nothing could be
more absurd than to allow railway companies to
go on upon the present system for so long a time.
He held in his hand letters from various people,
which he had received since he gave notice
of his motion. All of them complained of the
first-class carriages, though, if possible, still more of the
second. He could not but think the neglect of the House
to make some provision with respect to second-class
carriages had been a very serious omission. He
insisted that they had a perfect right that no causes
should be allowed to operate which could be
injurious to the health and safety of the people. He
betisted without hesitation that there was no class of
carriages so injurious to the health of the people as
were the second-class carriages, as they were
now fitted up. He believed that morbid diseases,
and more illness had been created by the
defects of these carriages than by those of all the
ether modes of conveyance. He had, however, letters
from various quarters complaining also of the ineffiiceney
of third-class carriages. It was alleged that the provi-
sions of the Act had not yet been fulfilled, and that even
if they were, though the effect might be beneficial
in winter, such -carriages would be intolerable in sum-
mer Another complaint was, that they had only
bpro-
vided one train each day at a penny per mile. He
gs, whichshould take the liberty of reading to the House
two letter
Bbem ham.
the
irstin One was the letter of 1 homes Johnson,
(Thehe selected au
of
Hon. Memberec thensethreeyadwethree
letter.) The author stated (as we understood), that
having travelled on the London and Birmingham line
he had found the third-class carriages so be ex-
tremely comfortable. In travelling, however, by the
Great. Western line, on the 23d of January, in a third-
class carriage, he had found it so constructed that the
passengers were much exposed to the weather,
and on subsequently taking his place in a second-clasa
carriage, he found that that also was miserably cold.
The writer sincerely hoped that the House would take
some measures to make the Bill of last session effective.
The Hon. Member then read a letter from a gentleman
in London complaining of the course pursued by
the railroads with respect to the third-class car-
riages ; a course which prevented the poor from en-
joying the benefit of them, as they could not go to
a place and return from thence the same day. The
writer suggested that two third-class trains should run
every day, and by that means a great benefit would be
given to the poor, as they could then go to and from a
plate on the same day. The Him. Member would not
trouble the House with, another letter he had from
another party, but he felt bound to call the attention of
the Government to a petition from Hastings, praying
that better accommodation
might be granted by rail-
way to the poor. He thought the petition well
worthy of the consideration of the House.
He had another petition from a class of men, numerous
it was true, but whose claims were but too seldom at-
tended to—he meant the working-men of England. They
had represented; in the most distinct and forcible
manner, that their safety, their health, and
security to their property—that their time
should not be wasted for the purpose merely of putting
money into the
.pockets of the different railway pro-
proprietors. He had not had time to look at
the returns which had been laid upon the
table, and therefore he intended saying not one
word upon the subject. He thanked the House
for the attention they had paid to him, and for the kind
ness with which they had listened to his statements on
this subject lie was not personally interested either
one way or another in the matter, further
than as lie had already stated to the HoUse—namely,
that he believed, in every particular, what he had sub-
mitted to the House. He begged. therefore, in the terms
of his notice, to move that leave be given to bring
in a Bill to repeal the 'Act of last session, commonly
called the Railway Act.
Mr. EIVART said that he agreed with his Hon.
Friend the Member for Greenock, that the subject of
railway communication was one of the most important
that could be brought before the notice of that House.
His Hon. Friend had referred to the constitution of the
Board of Trade, and on that subject he (Mr. Ewart) en-
tertained a very strong opinion since the very first founda-
tion of that Board. The Hon. Member had alluded to the
policy of Government's taking tenders for the formation
of different lines, from different companies. That mode
he (Mr. Ewart) thought might do well enough for
France, but he much doubted whether it would do equally
well in this country. He entertained a very strong con-
viction, which had been further strengthened since the
establishment of the Railway Bciard, that it was most in-
expedient for Government to interfere either one way or
the other. He believed that if Government were really
desirous of introducing benefits into the present railway
system, they could do so by making the Board of Trade
not a Board of control, but a Board of reference. Were
that Board to consist of a small number of members—
impartial and independent men, who might, when ques-
tions arose upon such- scientific: subjects as required a
more extended knowledge than they could give, refer to
persons appointed for the purpose—then that Board
would be a greatly improved one. He did not like
calling in the assistance of Government. It was a pain-
fultuelement,tio
n..
HtalilsyHaot
Hon. Friend
hwithad alludedth eprinciples of the
c i onstpetition of railways upon the same line, and he cited the
case of the Grand Junction and Manchester line, but
those companies ran in conjunction, and therefore that
did not establish the fact that it was possible for com-
peting parties to rue upon the same line. He held that
the position assumed by his Hon. Friend, that it was
impossible there could be competing trains on the same
line of railway was fallacious. It was impossible that
such could be the case, and in the instance to which his
Hon. Friend had alluded the trains had been run, not
by the competition, but by the concurrence of the rival
companies. In the third place, his Hon. Friend had
alluded to the policy of reducing the charge for pas-
sengers. All the evidence which he had seen on 'the
subject induced him to come to the same conclusion.
In the last report of the Grand Junction Company, the
Directors stated that while they had lost by the re
duction of the fares by the first and seccnd class, they
had greatly profited by the reduction of the fares of the
third class. He believed that it would be found that the
same rule applied to railways that applied to every other
branch of commerce—that it was always for the profit of
those concerned ih it to consult the interest of the largest
class of consumers. Last year when his Right Hon. Friend
the President of the Board of Trade had introduced his
Railway Bill, he (Mr. Ewart) had felt most ominous
forebodings as to the working of the measure. He
doubted whether any good could possibly arise from re-
ferring these measures to a Committee of the Board of
Trade. When the Board of Trade was first instituted,
Mr. Burke had expressed,his doubts as to whether any
good could possibly arise from the institution of .a board
for the regulation of trade. He (Mr. Ewan) doubted
whether any good could arise from any institution for
the regulation of railway traffic. He believed that
board could not stand. If it was necessary to have a
board for the purpose of consultation, it should be merely
a board of reference to assist a Parliamentary Commit-
tee, if required. He did not believe that the direct in-
terference of any Government, body in such matters
could benefit the country.
Lord HO WICK had not last year opposed the Govern-
ment Bill. On the contrary, he had voted for that mea-
sure. At the same time, he heartily concurred in the
opinion that had been expreised by the Hon. Gentle-
man, that the subject was one of the deepest importance
to the country, and that it was their duty to take mea-
sures to secure to the public the advantages of greater
facility and greater cheapness in railway travelling.
Hitherto the measures eithich.had been adopted had been
ineffectual for that purpose. The public had not hitherto
received that benefit from this invention which they
ought to have obtained. He also agreed that the pre-
sent session afforded an opportunity for dealing with
this subject which ought not not to be lost. They would
soon have a multitude of Bills before them, and before
theY created such a vast mass of vested interests and
rights, they ought to come to a decision as to what mea-
sures it would be eecessary and competent for them to
adopt, in order to secure to the public the greatest pos-
sible advantages from railway communication. The Hon.
Member for Dumfries had stated that all that was re-
quired was the improved constitution of the Committees.
Mr. EWART—Not all.
Lord HOWICK—WeII, the chief point urged by the
Honourable Gentleman and by the Noble Lord opposite,
was to alter the constitution of these Committees, and
the mode in which that object was to be gained. He
agreed with him in thinking that the improvement of the
constitution of these committees was very'desirable ;
but he did not think that it would be possible, by any
reform of,these tribunals, to provide a satisfactory mode
of disposing of the immense mass of railway business
which came before Parliament,, unless some greater
change was adopted than had been hitherto suggested.
It appeared to him that whether Parliamentary com-
mittees or the committee of the Board of Trade were en-
trusted with the disposal of such an enormous amount
of property—while competition for contending lines of
railway was so intense, while the amount gained or lest
by the adoption or rejection of a Bill was so great—no
c mmittee, Parliamentary or otherwise, could deal with
such enormous interests. The determination was not
which was the best line of railway communication, but
which out of two, or three, or more conflicting
companies was to have the benefit of constructing a
particular line. The competition at this moment was
so great that the mere fact of any particular line be.ng
sanctioned by Parliament, elevated the shares to a very
large premium. Twenty five pound shares, out of which
11. 10s. or 2L had been paid, would bring a premium of
161. or 18/., or even a greater amount. When the de-
cision of a Parliamentary Committee affected to so vast
an extent the public interests, the utmost care should he
taken that the public interests should be the chief object
of such decisions. It was nut a question of mere law or
rights they had to decide upon. but a question of public
convenience, in which a number of conflicting reasons
weighed one against the other, so that no two minds
could arrive at the same conclusion. He believed it was
impossible to create any autherity that could dispose of
this question, in which there would not be broarht to
bear, in some shape or other, influence or favour in
money or money's worth. This would happen, or
would be thought to have happened. The experience
of Parliamentary Committees proved that this was the
case. This inconvenience it would be impossible to
avoid as long as the two questions--What was the best
line of railways, and who were the parties to execute
that line, were united? it therefore seemed to him

that there was something in this matter, as they might
perceive, by looking at the example of a neighbour-
ing country. They all knew that in France the first
point determined was what should be the line of sea-
way, and that was determined quite irrespective of any
particular company. and on a sober and d.spassionete
consideration of what the country required. When
that was determined, the next step was to call upon ca-
pitalists to send in their tenders of the terms on which
they would propose to execute the line. Now, why
should we not adopt something of the same kind here.
He would trust any authority of this description, pro-
vided the right of const:ucting the line was not con-
ferred on the parties who were to benefit by it. Having
got the line laid out in this manner, the next step was to
call on rival companies to, send in proposals as to the
mode of making it. He held with the H. Member
for Greenock, that the principle of tender might be
safely introduced here. They might call on the diffe-
rent companies to say, if they constructed any particu-
lar line, at what rate they would charge ; what sort
of trains, and at what speed they would send them on
the line ; and, in short, what extent of accommodation
they would afford the public, and what it would cost.
Having got these tenders, nothing could be more easy
than to give the construction of the line to the company
which could afford to make it on the best terms. It
appeared to him, that by the adopting of some such
seheme, as this two great advantages would be
obtained —(Hear, hear) In the first place, he
belfeied that they would get rid of many difficulties
and dispose satisfactorily of disputing railway lines ; for,
where the consideration of the beat line through the
country involved immense pecuniary interests, they must,
be dispassionately end impartial': reflected on. There
would also be the further advantage secured to the public
of a very much cheaper railway accommodation than
they, could obtain by other means. Nuw he would
just give an illustration of his argument, and it would
show them the result of the system they were now adopts
ing in respect of some of the great lines. The House
was aware there were several lines:7he believed in nu-o-
ber three—prokcted, connecting London with the
north, and terminating in the city of York. There were
three propositions of that kind now before the public,
and it was understood that whenever one of these com-
panies obtained the preference, or at all events the
moment they got their Bill through Parliament, their
shares would sell at 201 premium. He was speaking
within bounds, for 251. was the lowest amount of pre-
mium to which the affair would advance, and here they
saw the result of their decision in favour of one of these
lines would be to put into the pockets of one set of inet:
a sum amounting to upwards of 5,000,0001. sterling.
Now, was it possible, that where such a great boon was
to be made, that any party could safely be trusted to
make that boon at their own discretion ? Was it pos-
sible to suppose that any body, be it is hat it might, and
constituted as it might be, having such gigantic pswer
—having so vast • boon to make—would not be be-
sieged and blockaded on all sides with applications for
information?—(Hear, hear.) Independent of this, it
was impossible that we should not have, as we now had,
gambling to an enormous extent, in London. Manches-
ter, and Liverpool—to an extent not only frightful itt
demoralising.--(Hear, hear.) After all, if this passed,
not only would there be great public inconvenience, but
the public would be at the mercy of the companies. The
latter would make what charges they liked. But sup-
pi 'se the Legislature would say, that they would not de-
cide in favour of one company, but one line, and offer
that line to public tender, for the various companies who
might offer to compete for the line. The companies would
put in their tenders, stating at what cost they would
execute the work, what accommodation they would
afford to the public, and what rates they would charge.
That tender would be open to the eyes of all the world.
There would be no gambling, suck as was now carried
on to so fearful an extent. Speculation would find its
proper and legitimate field in the fair competition of
capital. It could not be doubted that under such an ar-
rangement the companies could complete the lines, and
carry the public at a cheaper rate than was at present
attempted. For what was the fact ? He would suppose
the Bill had passed for the railway between London and
York. The capital subscribed, was five or six millions.
The shareiwould rise in an heir forty or fifty per cent.;
for it was true that there were people in this country
who would be willing to pay seven millions and a half,
calculating that, though the works would cost only five
or six millions, the company would be able to extract
from the public a scale of rates which would equal the
average profit on a capital of seven millions and a half.
If only 5,000,0001. were embarked in the work from
which the income was to be derived, in that case there
would be a considerable reduction of fares; and that re-
duction, in his opinion, be large, because they knew, as
his Hon. Friend near him had stated, that the actual re-
ceipt for the conveyance of passengers was small, com-
pared with the fares charged, and they knew that a con
siderable reduction of fares very often scarcely made
any, and sometimes no reduction in the profits, be-
cause the number of passengers increased in proportion.
If the Company, therefore, considered what was the
lowest amount of fares they could take, there was no
doubt that a very large reduction of fares might be ac
complished. If they applied this principle in the pre.
seat session to the new lines of railway which were to
be brought before them, they would not only
cause them to carry a greater number of pas-
sengers than they otherwise would air', and
afford a greater accommodation to the public,
but would also in the most legitimate manner exercise
a comprehensive supervision in existing railways
against which they would not be able to struggle,
which would force them to reduce their fares—s(Hear,
hear)—because it was obvious, 'Wring at the net-work
of railway lines by which the country was now covered,
that all the lines wet e' more or less competing lines, and
if a large number of the new lines with which they
were to be occupied this session were required to lower
the rate of fares, existing companies would of necessity
be obliged to do the same thing.—(Hear, hear.) That
was a more proper way to bring down the fares than, the
Bill of last year.—(llear, hear.) It might be said, in
answer to him, that he Has advising the House to adopt
a new system. The system was pursued in France, and it
might be asked how he could advise a course like that,
when the circumstances of the two countries were so
much different. France being behind most countries of
Europe with respect to railway enterprise; whereas the
progress which had been made in England within a few
years was absolutely marvellous. At the. commence •
went it might have been necessary to give some stimulus
to railway enterprise, but the circumstances were now
completely altered. Now, instead of stimulating such
speculation, it was highly desirable it should be modified.
Parties now rush blindfold as it were into such specula-
tions. There was a mania in tee public mind, which
it was important for the sake of the national interest
they should endeavour to modify and check. He be-
lieved that by deal.ne. with Railway Companies as he
suggested they would have a prospect of satisfactorily
disposing of the mass of railroad business coming before
thorn this session. He was aware that that was not the
occasion to enter into a subject so large as that now
be ore them ; but as it was his conviction that it was
not only extremely important, but extremely urgent,
that they should not:lose a moment in investigating, and
thoroughly looking into the subject—when they must
determine what was to be their course before these
Railway Bills proceeded farther—he was induced t'
make these observations, and there were very few more
which he had to add. In the first place, he would dis-
pose of one or two objections which might be urged
against the course he advised. It would be said, that it
was unjust when particular parties displayed their in-
genuity in making out lines of railway, that the execu-
tion of those lines should be taken out of their hands.
It would be most unjust if they were not remunerated
for what they had done, but at present they had
no claim whatever. Those Companies were not
yat created by Act of Parliament. They had
no right whatever, but they were perfectly at
.libertv to create them or not ; and it was perfectly open
to them to say that these lines would be made, and to
say, " but you are not the parties to make it." They
said that they should be well paid for all trouble and
expense in laying out the line, and bringing it into Par-
liament ; but that they had no claim whatever to ask to
be the parties to he entrusted with it.. The House would
decide what should be the proper remuneration; and any
company taking the line should pay that expense. Ia
this manner justice would be done to the projectors
without abandoning the suggestions that had been thrown
out. He thought that to some extent the principle he
had stated might be applied to branch lines, and leaders,
as clauses, might be inserted in Bills, limiting the rates
of fares proposed to be charged.—(Hear.) These
principles were adopted last year by a Com-
mittee that met to decide conflicting lines, and
all the members of the Committee agreed that the
subject they had to consider was, which of the lines
afforded the best accommodation to the public. The
tables of fares of each of the companies were put in,
and the one that made the lowest table of fares was de-
clared to be the successful line. The same principle
might be applied to competing companies in the present
session. 'He thought the public could not obtain proper
competition by creating two lines of railway having the
same object in view. lie hoped that during the present
session the House would not pass any Railway Bill
without strictly looking into the table of fares. The
only way in which they could do justice to the public
was,to look strictly at the tolls and fares that were to be
charged. He hoped the suggestions he had thrown out
would receive some consideration from the Right Hon.
Baronet. How, then, were they to decide upon the 248
projects which his Hon. Friend had informed the House
awaited its decision? It altogether passed his (Lord
Howick's) comprehension. How could Parliament, he
said, give the subject that attention which its import-
ance deserved? How could they satisfy themselves
which of the numerous projects were the most deserving
of support? How could they even constitute the re-
quisite number of Committees to inquire into these
schemes? How find time for the remarks of counsel
eegaged, and how, in fine, could the House deal with
the 258 schemes, saith the cumbrous machinery then in
use. It was important that the really useful projects
Hould not be delayed beyond the present seassion.
she for one deprecated any postponement of these
matters in the strongest terms. If the House considered
the inconvenience to the public of delay. the loss to capi-
talists by the employment of funds laid aside for these
purposes, the rick that that capital would be transferred
to other countries, and for the furtherance of other
schemes—if the House considered these things, then, in-
deed, they would see the necessity for as speedy a set-
tlement of these plans as possible. lie admitted that
the difficulties surrounding the subject were almost over-
whelming ; and those difficulties would be increased by
the delay he deprecated. He threw out these few ob
servations in the hope that they might suggest some
satisfactory mode of deali g with the question. It was
with that view only that he had taken up the time of the
House, and he fervently recommended the subject to the
immediate consideration of the Houss.
Colonel SIBTHORP had the misfortune not always
to agree in the general policy of the Noble Lord. and on
this subject he certainly did, not agree with him. He
would ask the Noble Lord how it wit* that, at the ele-
.