The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-03 00:00:00

FRIDAY. DECEMBER a 1819.

PA R 1 A .11 EN T.

HOUSE OF LORDS, THußst)Av, Dec. 2

Mr. MAsoti, from the Elst India 1-I,,use, ttre-
scored enpy of the Itesolutiobs j.iissed by the
Court of Dit'ctors Since the last, on the subject
Grants, Atmoi,ie3 ).Iml Pensions.

Ire . Earl.ot CArtsAtirnts res,nted soins Peti-
tions 11(IIII.differelit parts of the County of Sonier-
i'et.; respeeti"ng the tiy...etn of licensing,- public-
bruises, and other. siihiects, 'which, alter ti
WIMIS frOth were ortlered to lie on
able.
The Martinis of LANspowN moved for an Ac-
Count 04 the diff-rt,nt Informations and Indict-
to,nts in 'case!, 14
,anot Of the procectfings
thereon, 'wl;.kh had'Otentred within the two last
years.
This gyve rise to' fl '810)0- c4uversation on the
and !he liarls
of: LivEttiotit. and iitossLwirtv participated, in •con•
seq,,ence.t. iirst-mt•utioned liceCs proposing
to ktilsrii(l ihe•mnqu'ni-b!:, enkflziug i's operation
rerrospc.‘4,ively in the yritr 1813, inclusive.
ret.ult that the amendment was not persisted
in, and ass order made pursuant to the original
.motion,respecring which,

The Earl o Rf)SSLYN suggested the propriety
i•s being extended to Scotland.

The order 01 the D.,y npon which their Lord-
Ship were shwhioned being reitd, which %vas lot
the secohil reading of I he

iotse of C..mmorts, whet► tk 1t great man, whose
talents and whose political piodnetions had ren-
Acted him immortal (Mr. 13,itice) produced a dag-
g,r, and which was kept as mernori3l of that
great Character's couduct—a weapon which was
to he used not for sett-defence, bot for purposes
destructive to the State; 90 was it with 'the
weapons contemplated by the Bill 'before their.
Lordships. The principle to which he re-
ferred respecting the constitutional right to
arms, was iocontroVrl c ibre. With respect
to nieetings for the purpose, by means of
physical force, of effecting an alteration in the
LaVt 3 or Constitution of th,tse realties, it was so
far a yeasonable overt-act. 'Of this, et-mstitu•
tiooftliy speaking, he thought vete could, be no
it With respect to the provisions of the
Bik.l, be-could have no-wish to render theni moh
rigorous than the necessity of the case require 4,
but he trusted that whatever alterations may be
proposed i7') the Committee, their efficacy mould
itelirrser vett.,
Lord itypesrixis made some observations -in
support of what had fallen from the Noble Lord
on the tifoohack.

Lord HOLLAND was of ophlion, that the truest
dtcidarri on such cases was that of a Court of Jus-
tice, and in that no verdicts were obtained
against the accused. The policy of the present
system of measures he deprecated, and though'
the present situation of the country wits chiefly
attributable to the misconduct of 'Ministers. It
was clear, that. where there was much discootent
among the people, those were either very bad,
.or they bad a bad administration of GoVern-
ment. Toe Noble Viscount seemed to think the
Bills would best be Considered together, and as a
part of the system of policy orcessaty to be
adopted; but in no view which be could take ot
the subject Could be afford an uncpialificd assent
to these Bills, nor could he yet think their prin-
ciple could
.be safely sanctioned without farther
evidence of their necessity. With respect to the
Training Bill, there was an obvious inconsistency.
The punishment of transportation was provided
for the person who chilled, and yet for the per-
son who was taught, who might be the noire
guilty, there was but three years' imprisonment.
Whit respect t what fell from a Noble Lord op-
posite, en the point of anonymous information,
the fact may he worthy of attention, that there
were several Orange Lodges in that part of the
country, and whose existence and practices were
thought to excite great discowent. With respect
to the second 11:11, that for the seizure of arms,
he deemed it :objectionable in many points ot
view it was doubtless joeonsiscent
.11;j! I; the prin-
ciple I,titi down by the Bill of Rights, from which
a proved necessity alone could iaduce hint to de-
part. He was opposed to the inaxini that there
should be one law for the rich and another for
he poor, as was the effect of some of the argu-
ments, brit if the necessity for disarming were
proved, it should he done with all possible ten-
derness. In the Committee the measure may be
less objectionable. He regretted the absence of
a Noble Friend ttotn indisposition, who thought
with: him, that the whole of this system policy •
teas fomided in gross error. One of conciliation,
or a retracing of steps, would be more likely to
be effectual than calling upon Parliament to put
down, in this way, the existing rti“..ontents.
The LoRD CHANCELL,III again goilted the wool-
sack. He explaioed his differethe herrn the Nohle
Lord, in.point of his construction of the true effect
of the BM of Rieettts. The subject was allowed
arms for his owoi.defenCe and individual protection,
but not for purposes hostile to the safety of the
State or destruction of the'Contitution ; and on
• !his principle he had acted—a line of condort he
was prepired to defend, and willing to abide by.
The Marquis of BUCKINCHAsi contended there
was an important ditleteuce in the proposed
measure of disarming a part of the peo-
ple, which was to he considered wi:h a re,
Terence to the object. IViten these persons were
obviously armed for the propose of overthrowing
the Constitution, there could be no infringement
of the Bills in so doing ; and it became, from that
moment, the•doty of Parliament to disatm them.
On that principle the whole discussion of those
quest ions proceeded. The facts alleged were of
public notoriety, and formed ample grounds for
their proceeding, without the onus of proving be-
ing imposed loom Parliament. They had to ap-
ply a remedy to an existing evil, and in this view
he was against any impolitic compromising of the
Constitution. As to the objects of those iv ho con-
tvroled for Annual Parliaments and Universal Suf-
frage, their obj,•cts with respect to the Constitu-
tioo were to.) obvious to be mistaken or deuied.

Lord HOLLAND shortly explained.
The Puke of Sussitx tliought it appeared to be
imagioed that those who questioned the conduct
of Ministers on the present occasion were inclin-
ed to Silppol t the system of what Were called
Radical Reformers. Nothing coul,f liciwever he
turther from the truth. Adverting to the points
more immediately before the litinse, his 11,,yal
Highness said, he was inclined in a great me3sure
to acquiesce in the Bills proposed ; but he again
deprecated the idea that those 'who .111ily rather
think otherwise were inimical to tht int, rests of
the State. For the character and .conduct of the
Noble Lord on the Wools;ick he had the highest
opinion ; and we understood tite illustrious• Duke
to say, that Were his Lordship now in the situa-
tion of Attorney-General, he telt iarisked that
many of the difficulties which the country nosy
suffered would not exist. The situation' of thines
at present was one .that called for inquiry, which
would best point out the proper remedi,s to be
applied; atid with respect to the Bills incptestion,
the objectionable parts could he best discussed
and obviated inn Committee.

The Lail of DARNLEY spoke at some lengtt,,

[PRICE SEVENPENCP,

`chiefly in disapprobation of the line of policy
adopted by Ministers.
The Earl of DattLitiGtort (in a first speech) re-
Trested their Lordships'. indulgence, while he
troubled them with a few observations, which had
an important ';refeteoce. to, the discussion of that
evening. He was one who possessed some stake
in the country. had long been a Member of their
Lordsirips' House,.autf, since the year 1792, held
an important appointment tinder the Crown (Lord
Lieutenant of the County of Dorham). He had
much (visor:unity of knowing those parts of the
country, and be had taken some pains to acquire
correct -informatiou as to the real state of things
in throe ;quarters. . la many parts, donbtlet,t,
perfect quiet prevailed ; but it appeared to be
more at obemattire of soileir silence than -of real
quietness. lie adverted to a recent extensive
weeti:ttg in the neighboorbood, of .Netccastle ;
but it was one which took place under. onfortu..
nate cis ciimstancr.s, arising_ou;t of the differences
•between thecollierrs in That quarter and the keel..
men.; it was alSo of such m nature, that thOogh
they -sep4iAted quietly, it bad Atracted the notice
of all who wished well to the established Govern-
Went. Property was seriously menaced, in some
instances attacked, and apprebeicsions were enter-
tained of a rising'takiog place. This may occur
within it few days ; and it was certainly true, that
while they ( he Lords) were deliberating there,
there tea, sto doubt hut many deliberations were
taking place, particularly in the northern parts of
the county of Durham, and in .'another quarter
mentioned by the Noble Earl, which could
not be distinctly .heard below Ile Bit.. Quan-
tities of offensive weapons mete collected, and

here was no doubt but those who collected them

either aimed at the destruction of the Con-
stit Iv ion of the country, or endeavoured in
excite such tumults as would endanger all pro-
perty in the country.—(dear, hear')—On soma
points cminecied with those questions he nit;st
disagree with many of his NisbleTriends. Men-
tion was made that night of the effect of anony.
mous information; but he for one had recently
r-eceived iotormation, and from a quarter which
he would not upon any account disclose, In such
cases as that before them, Noble Lords would

individualiy judge for themselves. Ile had the
grewest deference for the opinions of bis
Fr ien as, whom he generally sipported ; but ott
this occasiini he would be governed by his own.

With respect to the Bills in question, on some
parts he may have some hesitation—those may
require alteration,- so as to improve the general
tetr,,r, But he was free to say such measures were
abs:Autely necessary ; and he repeated that he bn.t
received itiformarinn, which left hint in no doubt,
and held impressed upon his blind the necessity
of Ministers bringing forward sorre measures that
may be called strong. He was desirous in such
ar, emergency of seeing an union of talent in both
Houses, so that the country could have the ad-
vantage of their opinions in defence of the coun-
try but a union of this kind was rather to be
wished than hoped for. As to\the camtes which
led to the present dangerous crisis, he thought

they formed a distinct question-. To talk upon
question of Ittform as connected with, or
con!cmplated by, such persons, would be a merit
waste of words, though some degree or spccies
of itt.form would perhaps be advantageous or ne-
cessary.—(Hear, hear !)
The Eat! of STRATHMORS stated, that he also
was possessed of same important information
from the part of the comoy alluded to by :he
Noble Earl who had just spoken. His Lordship
principally adverted to the nature and-extent of
many meetings which had recently taken place.
Of these some were attended with regular bands
of music, and of others, women bore a nume-
rous proportion. Upon the whole-, he !bought
there was little doubt of these persons being ripe
for some dangerous convolsion. Malty who,
attended were either smiths, or habited as
such, and were known to have pistols coueeal-
-ed under their leather aprons. He had that
cl.ty received a letter from a most respectable
Clergyman, which spoke of the most toft wits de-
predations having taken place in that quarter.
The Meetings were frequent and nunteromi, anti
there could he no doubt that their object erns to
excite a more extensive system of sed.tion, if not
rebellion. The brother of a Noble Earl then ab-
sent (we believe Earl Grey), was described to
have_ had his residence iii the county attacked,
and to seek, protection for his family in one
of the nearest, large towns. He trusted.the
Bills would he carried through with the ut-

most expedition. The Meetings of the colliers
vere numerous timl frequent, but they were di-
vided into parties.and appeared at different places ;
they %vele p.wever attended a ith the cap of li-
berty, the. death's head and cross hones, and othar
inflAmmatoty symbols. The michinations which
cansed ;hese had made too notch %vay ; he still
hoped those. people would see their error in the
end, and no longer continue such dangerous
and destructive practices. He .vas lately assor eft
(ha( no less than fourteen thousand men, chicflp
armed, were in readiness for insurrection its
the County between the Tyne and she Wear ;

iiideed, by every thing he cotici4 learn, they were in
a state very little short of rebellion, and he enter"
rained strong apprehensions, that without sonic
strong precautionary measures, some general in-
sortection would take place. Some of the dis-
tricts in that quarter were, he was happy to say,
vier wid loyal, and cherished very little of radi-
calism or disaffection. His Lordship instanced
the lVestern parts of Dtritam, and the Northern
parts of the county of York.—lie thanked tneir
Lordships , for the attention they had favoured

Ain ►vitlt ; but he thought it right to ethl the
'nfdrination cvlicti be Lad received from nearly

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