The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TtIESTiAIe MORNING, PRI3RITARY 25, 1845.

of England.—(Hear, hear. ) The Vice-President of the but interests lisd beer, formed which the British Parliament
Board of Trade had told them that the West Indian would !support it in just. He did not think the
labourers were in an extremely prosperous condition, that they House would be prepared to admit that they ought
had two shillings a day, besides provision found, and that it was to apply with sudder i hand the principle of free trade to eir-
difficult to get them to give a complete days, abour. Now, he curnstenees 50 artifl 3ial as those under which tie sugar trade
believed that the Hight lion. Gentleman was correct. in that remained. The H on. Member for Wolverhampton hied said
representation, but he wanted to know, if they compared his what claim had the West India proprietors to
(I••ferential duty?
condition with that of the peasant in Darsetshire or Somerset- He wished hear.tny tha t equality could be established between
shire, where was the justice of taxing the peasant of Dorset or native and foreign protection, but it was the extreme dearness
Serrne set, and net the negro peasant in the \Vest Indies? a production in the West Indies that made the difficulty that
Well, it was not justice to the lahnnsrer that required the pro- had always been felt.---( Hear. hear.) Now what was the
tection. Was it the merchant sir ship owner that required it? cause of all this? Why, it was said that the scarcity of
No person would deny that they would not gain more by labour was the cause of all Hear, hear.) Now he could
an unrestricted trade than by protection.—( Hear hear.) Who n n agree with that. —(Hear. ) It was true that that was
then required it? It was clear that the only remaining class one great cause of the scarcity, but another cause 'sat the non-
were the owners of the land in the West Indies—( Hear, residence of proprietor If they could change the nen•resident
hear)—and the planters resident in this country ; and the proprietors to residents he believed the great difficulty would he
proprietors (t
on Bear,
the West Indian
tpierneiptl people of England
coloniese
talked
dwoefl!
it
toconsidereao
s t
atthi
nagt , t
hthe when
matter ju •
plainly arid intelligibly, the planting of a large sum of money in patible with the slaver y system ; for that the Parliament of the
the pockets of certain West India planters resident in this country was responsibi:e.—( Hear, hear. ) It was on the ground
country.—(Hear. ) If the West Lelia planters had a case of non-re ddence thnt be rested his case for the protection of
against this country he was prepared to meet it fairly. the sugar duties. Parliament had interfered and abolished
If they put forward a good case, he was sure the people of slavery, and, ther afore, it made that which was hitherto %bun-
Eneland would meet their demand fairly, as they did when they dant, scarce. Tt,e consequence was—that labour, which was
paid the twenty millions for th - abolition of slavery. If they cheap, became d.ear, and those who caused that dearness were
proved the case, the people of this country would meet their bound to meet their share of the consequences of their own
demands fully and fairly, but in the way least onerous to the acting. It reight be shown that there were estates in the
country, namely, by charging the Consolidated Fund with at, West Indies that hail not met with losses ; but wish regard to
annuity for those gentlemen.—( Hear, hear. ) But he for one the greater portion of them, perhaps not one in ten, aye, per-
would not consent to a tax on account of the West India pro. haps not one in fifty, stood on the right side of the account.
priet
ors, which for every pound it put into their pockets, took Tie Noble Lord had said that the present was a most favour-
two out of the pockets of the people.—(Hear, hear.) Arid he able opporeunity for the equalisation of the denies on sugar.—
would prove that this was the case, arid that the difference was ( Hear, ~ear. ) %%lief was now proposed? Why, instead of
wasted in the way in whiclelabour and capital was employed,— maintain . a `thesytem which gave the West Indians 20s. per
( Hear. ) But he would go further, and centend that while hundre, I weight, y were about to adopt a system that world
this measure was most injurious to the people of England, and give -only lOs. A severe pressure had been-brotieht to bear
was a gross injustice to the manufacturing classes of this coun- upon the West Indian proprietors since the abolition of slavery.
try, it would also disappoint the \Vest India proprietors He vas unwilling to detain the House long upon the subject,
( Hear, hear. ) Arid the grounds of that opinion it was not becreuse it was not necessary to argue it farther. Ile was per-
difficult to explain. Whoever took the trouble of becoming sea -led that the House would deal with the question now before
arqua n:ed with the condition of the West India colonies, par- it sts it had dealt with many such questions, and that it would
titularly whoever had carefully read the Report of the Corn- not begin at the wrong end as to the principle of free trade.
niittee in 1842, would see at once that the great ground of Let them apply the principle of free trade wherever they
complaint, on the part of the planters, was that while there could without producing evil.—(Cries of " Hear, hear ")
co
W3S great competition for labour on their part, the ages But let them not begin by applying th ose re iniples against the of the negt were so high that by only working part of the day produce of the West Indies.—( Hear. ) Theyc should not com-
he was able to supply himself with all those necessaries and pare it with those interests which came before the House with-
luxuries to which he was accustomed. Of course, like men in out any special claim, whereas the West Indians had this
other countries, they did not like work for work's sake. They ground that the causes which prevented them from competing
found that whatever was the price of sugar the planters sought with their foreign rivals were brought about by the measures
to outbid each other by offering the highest price for labour, of Parliament—those causes being
principally non 'residence of
which the price of sugar at the time enabled them to afford, the landlords, and the scarcity of lahour—which latter was the
That was a necessary consequence of a limited supply of labour. consequence of the honourable but costly Act of the British
But what would be the effect of raising the price of sugar, and Parliament, in the emancipation of the negro slaves.—( Hear. )
raising thereby the competition for labour amongst the plan- Mr. LA 130UCHERE said that he would not detain the
ters? His belief was, that the competition which already House more than a very fen. minutes. But having frequently
existed would become more intense—higher wages would be had occasion to take part in the discussion of this question. he
offered to the negro. They would then be enabled to supply could not allow the present motion to be disposed of without
themselves with all they wanted at a smaller amount of labour, troubling the House with a few words!. He was not disposed
and the effect would be in all probability a diminished supply an this occasion to discuss the scheme of her Majesty's Minis-
of sugar, thus placing the West Indies, as compared with the ters. To it he had great objections.--( Hear. hear.) But he
East Indies, in a worse position than at present.—( Hear, hear.) was glad that the proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord J.
There was strong reason for believing that such would be the Russell) and those of other Gentlemen on that side of the
effect of the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. And he House would give him an opportunity of stating his objections,
thought that the best opportunity now presented itself of One of those objections was, that not only was the scheme in-
making a change in the policy hitherto pursued, trinsically bail in itself, but, instead of bringing the duties on
because after a long perseverance in the protective sugar to the point which they should reach, or diminishing the
system, and after quiet was established, he thought protection, it was proposed to increase the protection which
it would tend to great temporary disturbance to make such a already existed.---( Hear, hear.) In fact, by adding to the
change. But now that a large reduction of taxation was pro- protection, it greatly increased the difficulty of dealing with the
posed, if they made this change of policy they would escape this subject at a future time. The question at present before the
serious shock to colonial industry. And it was :Aso to be con- House was really whether at once and completely
sidered, that by making the two measures simultaneous, by they should proceed to substitute for the present duty one of
coupling together the reduction on colonial sugar and the complete equality. That was the real question before the
equalisation of duty on sugar of all descriptions—by making the House. He thought he had fairly stated the question as it hart
two conte noraneous they might hope to give the consumer been put by the lion. Member for Manchester, and his Noble
the benefit he ought to have from the reduction granted to him Friend the Member for Sunderland.—( Hear, hear.) Now he
at the expense of the Treasury. If they were to reduce the conceived that nothing could be more objectionable however
duty on colonial sugar without extending the source of supply, much he condemned those duties—than to proceed at once to
he thought the great probability was that there would be no equalisation.—(Ministerial cheers.) The cons •11
consequence would
fall of consequence in the price of sugar. The consumption be to throw into confusion and to paralyse every interest con-
of this country was entirely kept down by the price— nected with the colonial sugar trade.—( 'Ministerial cheers. )
it was so infinitely below the real wants of the people—(Elear) He felt bound to say that, on this occasion, he must take the
n—that his belief was that if the source of supply were not ex- course which he had uniformly taken when similar questions
tended at the moment the duty was reduced, the price would affecting interests in the country came before the House,
rise with the demand, and the advantage of the reduction He did not think that the course recommended by
would be divided between , the planter and the labourer em- the Hon, Mover (Mr. Gibson) and his Noble Priend was
ployed in the cultivation of sugar. His belief was that if the that which the Government ought to pursue, and he, for one,
supply of sugar was increased by enlarging the sources from as a Member of that Home, would not be a party to force it
which it came, it would be absorbed so much by this country, upon theta.—(Ministerial cheers.) The question had been
where the richest body of consumers were to be found, that so fully argued that he was not disposed to detain the Heuse at
the price would rise of necessity in the other markets of the any length. He was the more unwilling to do so, because he
world. Price being thus supported, and looking to the Let that assured them that, althouoth he had thought it his duty not to
the price of colonial and Brazil sugar in bond was but 7s. red. a shrink from avowing his dissent from his Noble Friend and the
few days ago, and that the remission proposed by the lion. Mover, yet it was painful to him to argue with them
Government on colonial sugar was I Is. ; considering that, he upon a subject upon which to so great an extent he agreed with
felt persuaded that the price of sugar in all the markets of the them. —( Hear, hear.) He agreed with them, that the danger
world would be so supported for a time, that the immediate in that House was not that protection would be too suddenly
fall of price in this country could not go beyond the amount of withdrawn—( Cheers)—but. that it would be continued too
the remission of the duty. If that were so, then (and this was long—(Cheers)—to the injury of the country and of the pro-
what he wished to impress on the House), this desirable change tected interests themselves.—( Cheers. ) Therefore it was with
of policy might be effected without injuring, at all events for unwillingness he opposed motions of this kind.—( Hear, hear.)
the present, the colonial produce. if the fall of price in this But it was now proposed to substitute for a system of exclusion
country did net exceed the remission of the duty, the consumer and monopoly, one of perfect free trade. That was a course
would remain as well off as he was at this moment. No op; osed to even the great and recognised authorities in political
doubt in the course of time, the price would be brought down. economy, from Adam Smith to the present day. He found
But then the argument of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite that they all—however clearly they laid down and il-
was, that the principles of free trade, which were those of lustrated the principles of free trade—they all said
common sense, ought not to be introduced at once, but gra- that circumspection and caution should be used in applying
dually, and he had shown that if the principle were now in- those principles to interests which had been long cherished
troduced its operation would be slow. The Hon. Gentleman under the principle of protection. In that House he had
who spoke last had admitted that of late years there was a con- heard the most distinguished statesmen—from Mr. Huskisson
siderable improvement in the cultivation of sugar, and he had down—and he had never heard. ad contrarya opinion from any
no doubt but that improvement would greatly advance if the public man whose opinion
tchaerrioelio any gtrileatyweliteht.--( Hear,
West Indies were subjected to a closer competition. He be- hear.) And, looking to py-feertheywould
lieved that the system of working by agents and attorneys was never see a long-continued protection. suddenly removed.—
at..
Looking to this and to the present position
the root of-the whole evil, and that when the negroes, ( Hear, hear.). ,
who were advancing in material prosperity and in of the colonies, lie did not think that the real interests of the
intellectual poster, became proprietors,
they would be country would be promoted by adopting a resolution of the
able to contend with the producers of foreign countries, description of that now proposed. Considering the present
When all those improvements had taken place which position of the West Indian interests, and the course of legisla-
the state of the W,st Indian population required, there tion pursued towards them, there was every reason why those
could be no doubt that all the advantages which the advo- principles of caution and circumspection, so just and
sates of emancipation predicted from the employment of free reasonable in themselves, and recommended by the
labour instead of slave labour, would result. They knew that highest authorities, should be applied to then.—(Ministerial
in this country, where farms or manufactories were carried on cheers.) lie laud no more connexion with the West Indies
by agents, while the owners lived in Naples or Moscow, much than any other Member of that House, but he snook! not deal
profit was not derived from them ; and so it was with re• with the colonial interests more harshly than with any other in-
gard to the cultivation of sugar in the West Indies. But terest in this country.—( Hear, hear. ) He was, therefore, not
they must remember how fast the condition of the negro was prepares! to take the course recommended in the resolution be-
improving ; and when he had the stimulus of personal interest, fore the House.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think it necess, ry
he had no doubt that the cultivation and manufacture of sugar to trouble the House at great length on the present occasion,
would be improved in the highest degree. Every day there and he would now only say that whilst he was willing to vote for
was rising into manhood, not an uneducated population, de- a diminished protection, he could not vote fur an equalisation
graded by the influences of slavery, but enlightened by educa- of the duties upon colonial and foreign sugar.—( Hear, hear.)
Lion. By slavers, they might extort more physical labour from Mr. COBDEN, who commenced in a tone extremely low
the slave, but they could not draw out the qualities of his and indistinct, so as to be for some minutes almost inaudible in
mind. For that purpose slavery was powerless, and accord- the gallery, was understood to say, that when he considered that
ingly all experience proved that every business carried on by the arguments upon this question were nearly exhausted,
slave labour, whether in their own colonies, or the United he was not disposed to occupy the time of the
States or Brazil, in all those cases it was proved that free House at any great length. But he had taken some
labour was more profitable than slave labour, and that little trouble with the subject, which was an old acquaintance
was emphatically the case in :the cultivation of sugar. of his.—(Cheers and laughter.) That (as we understood)
That was the reason why, after two or three centuries, there might be eorne little apology for him in speaking upon this
was still observed so little difference between the primitive occasion,—(Hear, and a laugh.) Since he had heard the
state of those affected by this question and their conditkm at lion. Member for Bristol and the Hon. member for Cumber-
that time. More had been done towards realising their wishes land express themselves quite satisfied with the scheme of the
within the het half dozen years, and since slavery Right lion. Baronet, he was certain not only that the measure
had been abolished in their own colonies, than in the two ten- was as bad as the one of last year, but that it was something
turies before. But still, considering the improvements going worse.—( Cheers and a laugh, ) He supposed that the Right
on in the trade of Antigua and Barbadoes, the improvements Hon. Baronet wished to have a little flirtation with the prin.
in the condition of the labourers was not so rapid as it ought to &isles of free-trade-..(Laughter)—these principles which he
be. They still wanted the stimulus of competition, but they (Mr. Cobden) and his friends cherished. But then the
might look to this result, that, in three years, free labour would Hight lion. Baronet turned back to his first love—( A laugh)
be so much cheaper than slave labour, in Trinidad and other —and they could not expect him to follow them.__( Hear and
places, that they would not only be able to drive slave labour a laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet's Budget took something
out of their own markets, but out of the markets of the world, out of the pockets of the people by means of the income-tax,
and, by doing so, not only abolish the slave trade, but slavery and gave it hack by the repeal of some Customs duties. But
itself. The great result to which they might with confidence he ( Mr. C.) thought that with regard to the protective duties
look, was this, that if they had sufficient faith in the on sugar, the people would be on the whole in a worse position
truth of their great principle, sufficient eenidence in the than they were last year.—( Opposition cheers.) He did not
realisation of all that was good and great, over that which was think he had any other part of the assertion to deal with, but
the opposite, if, instead of shrinking from the inconveniences or the subject of slavery. His Noble Friend ( Lord Howick)
temporary difficulties which must result from the change he had been charged with imputing motives. He (Mr. Cobden)
recommended, for he did not deny that some temporary incon- would nut impute motives. But he might do Right Hon.
veniences and some immediate evil might not arise.—(Hear, Gentlemen some good by telling them what motives were im-
from the Ministerial side of the House.) He was not pre- puted to them out of doors._( Hear, hear.) Gentlemen
pared to deny that some immediate encouragement might not thought that in supporting the scheme of the :Government
be given to the slave-trade, but he considered that any tern- they would have the assistance of the anti-slavery body in this
porary evil of this kin 1 was of minor importance, when looked country. In that they were mistaken.--(Cheers.) He (Mr.
at in connexion with such great aud glorious objects. He did Cobden) hail an extensive acquaintance amongst that most
not attempt to deny that some inconvenience might be expo- respectable body, and he could say that the greater partf
o
rienced by equalising at present the duties on all sugars to the them were supporters of the principles of free trade.—( Loud
exclusion of slave labour front their markets, but he liked cries of " No, no.) There were Committees sitting in Loin-
still less their plan of rejecting some, and admitting others— bard-street and Bond-street (in London). But he remem-
whicher
they might think it too great a sacrifice to refute— bored that they voted for the Hon. Gentleman now Aletfn
their Flan of attempting to bolster up their colonies by pro- for fluntingdon.—( Cheers.the
) But with the great body o
t_
teetive duties. He did not deny that those measures, while opponents of slavery they had no influence, no suispon
they were utterly powerless to get rid of the evil, might (Cheers, and cries of " Hugh, hugh." and other discordantsl
nevertheless answer for the time; but if, in order to put cries from the Ministerial benches ) When the Anti-Slavery
avery
down not only the slave-trade but slavery itself, they continued Societ existed who were its representativestant thatehester,
them, the remedy would be found quite inadequate. If they House-?—(Loud cheers ) The Members for
trusted in the truth of that great principle which they had for Kendal, for Leeds, for Bath..—(Cheers.) The-
e were
nt
all
sent
trust due consideration adopted—if they were prepared to Members upon the Liberal side of the House, and who
trust their own colonies to struggle in the markets with the them there ? The anti-slavery body.—(Cheers.)
produce of the slave countries—if it was their opinion that look to Leeds.—(Hear, hear.) 'They (the A
reey (
'terial side)
no good could arise without pursuing some stated principle— had one Member. The Opposition had another.
iini Let them
if they admitted slave-grown sugar as they admitted cotton, terial Member represented that party who, to the
Minis-
tobacco, or other products—if they were prepared to do the emancipation of the negro slaves.—(Cheers.)
e last, resisted
The Liberal
of those who
this, there might be some temporary inconvenience, it ;Member, on the contrary, was the representative
was true they might not indeed gain a great had made the most strenuous and indefatigable efforts for the
victory for the cause of humanity, but they might abolition of slavery.—(Cheers.) He was sorry'
that the Hon,
rest assured that free labour would triumph in the struggle Member for Bath had a cold.—( A laugh.)
over slavery. Such was his conviction, and in that conviction the Hon. Member to tell the House whether Butut he would ask
hits anti-slavery
tit would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Man- friends in Bath would have the sugar of the poor labourers in
chester ; and his answer to the Hon. Gentleman on the oppo- Somersetshire kept at a high price to protect the West Indian
site side, who taunted him in supporting it, was, that he was interest?—( hear, hear.) The Gentlemen opposite who sup-
not more indifferent to the horrors of slavery now than when it ported this scheme under the pretence of discouraging slavery
was triumphant in the colonies, and that it ill became them to were the persons who to the last resisted the abolition of slavery
taunt, who were not by those horrors prevented from profiting —(Cheers)—who to the last resisted th- exemption of women
by those abuses as long as they lasted, those who were but from the lash.—(lmmense cheering.) Every one of them (the
new philanthropists. He was not more indifferent than when Tories),every one of their leaders resisted the exemption of women
them not he had upported those honourable and patriotic men to whose from the lash.—(Cheers.) Let say that he charged
exertions the British nation was indebted for equalizing the sta- them with motives.—( A laugh.)
He only told them the mo-
tion of the bondman and the free. lie had humbly supported tives which were attributed to them out of doors. The resolu-
those, one of whom he could not help remarking they had tion only said that the protection was not to be pernsanent,
lately lost—one whom they must all remember for his since- They would vote against
that. Let them consider then what
rity, his zeal, and his earnestness in the cause of the slave—but would be the opinion of fere'gnn
nations en this subject ? Would
Hon.
although he had supported -ir Thomas Fowell Buxton, al- they not say that the Right Baronet and his supporters
though he retained the full feeling that he then advocated, he were guilty of hypocrisy in their proposed hostility to slavery ?
had uhoun stated in a most
was not to be deterred from supporting the motion of his Hon. Would they not say, as Mr. Col q
Friend the Member for Manchester, and he did hope that the bold and statesman••like document, that they wished to put
people of this country would look on, and compare their con- down slavery, in order that they might have
duct with the previous conduct of those who put forward this a monopoly in the production _ of sugar•—(Cheers.)
question as the advocates of free trade, and see how much of The Hun. Gentleman assumed that the business of sugar
sincerity there was at the bottom of their arguments, and then making could not be carried on in competition with slave la-
ask themselves, on a question like that, if any Ministry could boor ; and the Hon. Member for Cumberland said, " How
passively look on the evils of this country, on the distresses of would you like to carry on the manufacturing in Manchester
its labourers, arid still continue by this mode of legislation to against competitors abroad who paid no wages?"—that means,
burden the country with its present amount of pecuniary against people who steal their workmen, and make them work
taxation ? for their food. In reply to this challenge, he (Mr. Cobden)
Mr. GLADSTONE said that he for one meant not to dis- would say, that he desired no other competitors than those.—
cuss the question of slavery as slavery with the Noble Lord who (Hear, hear.) If the manufacturers of the North of England
had just sat down ; but he concurred in the eulogium which had only a gang of slaves to compete with, they could corinnand
the Noble Lord had just passed on the principles which had the markets of the world.—( Hear, hear.) Was there ever such
actuated the late Sir T. Fowell Buxton, although he could not an absurdity—such a monstrous absurdity, as to suppose that a
help thinking that the Noble Lord was not particularly happy community of slaves could rival a nation of freemen.—( Cheers.) .
in his choice of introducing at that time the taunt of their The very nature of slave labour precludes those economical
being new philanthropists. The Noble Lord was an advocate arrangements which freemen are able to effect. Slavery in.
of extreme measures, and he was prepared to bring volves expenses, he repeated, which freemen do not, because he
the question to a final settlement. But he (Mr. Glad- that employs slaves must keep a sufficient number of workmen
stone) was not sure that this merit would attach on his premises to meet every possible contingency. If the
to the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester. proprietor be a sugar manufacturer he must have a sufficient
Now, the Hon. Gentleman had stated he had heard much said number of coopers about him to minuet his wants, and more, for
of the tax that had been paid by the people on account of the he must allon for casualties. In the same way he must retain
differential duties. lie did net deny that there was a payment, a sufficient number of waggoners, and other descriptions of la-
which, if they pleased, they might call a tax on sugar, but why bourers, though he should only want their services once a
should they resort to unnecessary exaggeration ? The Noble twelvemonth. Would any one tell him that in such a state of
Lord opposite had commenced his speech by attacking the society as that, which precluded the division of labour, the ap-
Hon. Member for Bristol, and by stating that 2,300,€•)°1• Plicati°n of science, or the march of improvement, slavery could
was the minimum tax on the people far sugar; but instead of surpass freed°m• the assumption that pervaded the whole of the
showing a difference of 13/. or ltd., he only showed a difference speeches of the Hen. Gentlemen opposite, and particularly of the
of 7s. 6d. lember fur Right Hots Gentleman the Newark, was, that an
Lord HOWICK—That was after the change. equalised duty would necessarily bring ruin on every one of the
Mr. GLADSTONE—Yes, but after that change it was colonies. That presumption he characterised as an odious
said there would be a rise. The Noble Lord had informed fallacy. He denied the premises. They had been disproved I
them, and truly, that if they granted equalization there would in Manilla and Java. f the sugar growers in those places
he a rise in the price of sugar, and there would be no diminu- could sell their sugar in Holland in opposition to those of
tons of the tax paid by the people.—( Hear, hear.) It had been Brazil, why not the West Indians as well. The Hon. Mem-
said that the gist of the question had not been met ; he ber for Bristol came here very much in forma pauperis, plead-
granted that it had not ; but the policy of this country had ' ing for relief in order to carry on the business; but he (Mr.
been to maintain a system of protection, and that under that Cobden) submitted that before they doled out the public money to
certain engagements had been entered into, perhaps viciously, these gentlemen, they should investigate their accounts. Let us

see how they carry on their business. If all he heard was true, sident of the Board of Trade had acknowledged, and the
nothing could be more clumsy, more expensive, more extrava- Right Hon. Baronet, in bringing forward his statement, ele-
gant he should have said, nothing more erroneous than the system dared that it was the intention of the Government to give the
pursued in the West. Indian colonies. He had heard a great colonial proprietor a protective duty of 10s. 6d. per cwt. What
deal of this expsnse attributed to the habits of the workmen. was the meaning of a protective duty ? Why, to raise the
lie believed the blame was justly attributable to the masters, I price of the colonial planter 10s. 6d., 55., or "s. over that of
What was the fact ? The wages af workmen, in the West In- j any other produce. The Hon. Members for Cumberland and
<lin colonies, was only uric shilling per day. The Noble Lord I Bristol understood it in this its
simple meaning. They did not
observed, and his observation was founded upon a statement I take it in any new or novel sense. They said, " 10s. 6J. for pro-
ma'de on the wher side of the House, that the wages were two I tection means that their sugar should be raised 10s. 6d. higher
shilings per day. But he (Mr. Cobden) should say advisedly in our market than it would be if there was no protection given
that the wages were only one shilling per day. to it." It had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, that if
Mr. JAMES—The wages are two shillings per day. the West Indies sent 104,000 tons of sugar raised by a law
Mr. COBDEN said he had received a letter from Jamaica, passed in that House, at 10s., the natural price wrizzlil be
ie which it was stated that the wages were oil's, one shilling per 14,7001. ; 7,350/. for the East Indies, and 4,20 1. fur the Mau-
day, so that the Hon. Gentleman did not know his own bust. ritius, making a total of 2,62.5,000/. Whilst this was going
nes% He would not mention the name of the gentleman from on, it must be borne in mind that the whole exports to the
as horn he had received this advice, nor the names of those per- West Indian colonies in the year 1843 was considerably
sons contained in it, but he would show the letter to any Hon. under three millions, and yet they were going to vote
Member who wished to inspect it ; and the Hon. Gentleman to them as a protectioa the sum f 147,000/. nearly more than
the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, who had received a half the amount of the whole trade they had with this country.
copy of the letter, would be able to answer fur the authority They were to give to the Mauritius a protection of 4,20 n/.,
aed genuineness of the document. Relearned from this letterthat whilst the goods imported there from this country, in 1843,
men's labour was done by the day, aril Is. 3d was the standard only amounted to 2,a80/. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the:late
rate of wages ; but when they laboured at jab work they were President of the Board of Trade, speaking with a freedom
able to earn 2s. a day, which was very satisfactory to both which he did not use while in alice, said the Mauritius
parties. Ile epprehended that after all this was not such a had no claim to protect on ; but the Right Honourable
dispiriting description of the West India labourers. A man Gentleman admitted that the only ground which
that received Is. a day for ordinary work, are' by greater could entitle them to protection was the high price
dispatch ayes able to earn "s., could not lie such a mere ma- of labour. Now every body knew that there was as great an
chine, such a mere log as the West Indian 1 ibourer was some- abundance of labour in the Mauritius as in Dorset.—(hear,
times described. Ile thought, as he said before, that hear. ) Every body knew that in the Ea-t Indies—they hail
more blame was attributable to the masters than the workmen, the authority of the Chancellor of the Exclie..,uer for it—
ana if it would not too much occupy the time of the House, he labour was not scarce. Now, besides all these extra pay-
would read one or two extracts from the letter alluded to. Tho silents, they were called upon to make, there was another most
writer of this letter was a resident of Jamaica, and was ac• serious and important matter. They must bear in mind the
quain'ed with everything going on there. The lion. Gentle- great trade carried on between this country and the Brazils.
nein proceeded to read extracts from the letter, of which the This trade, according to the last returns of 1840
following is the substance —He said that the great evil of the and 1841, amounted to two millions and a half.
West Indian colonies was absenteeism, and that absentee pro- Of this, the production of cotton manufacture alone
prietors could never expect to get any thing out of their exported into that country amounted to one million and a half.
estates. Their profits were swallowed up by attorneys, —(Hear, hear.) Now the Right lion. Baronet the Pi ime
overseers, bookkeepers, and a host of others. Then Minister, on bringing forward his financial statement, dock
the merchant must have his portion before a upon the importance of the cotton trade ; but, notwithstand
abiding could be remitted to the proprietor in England. I I ing some of his measures bearing upon this subject were con-
the proprietor resided on his property, ant attended to it, or sidered by some to be inexpedient. Now, here was trade of
let the property to practical men, the results would soon be the same description extending to a million and a half, and yet
apparent. The wrier proceeded to say, that a friend of his, the Right Hon. Baronet, by the measures he was passing, was
whose name he would not mention, made last year one him- not only decreasing, but absolutely destroying the trade.—
dred hogsheads of sugar and sixty of rum, clearing one thousand Brazil naturally mid very justly said, "We will take your
pounds. Another, Mr. —, a Creole, and a man of colour, goods if you will take our sugar in return." But he thought the
cleared 150/. per annum. Last year he made 110 hogsheads strongest argument in favour of the proposition which hod been
of sugar, with the usual proportion of rum, clearing 600/., brought forward to-night had been those that bore upon the
although the sealer' was a dry one. Another, who interest of the West India colonist. lie would ask the House
held land at a place called St. Thomas (I see to observe what was the progress made in the cultivation of
that the mouth of my Honourable Friend the several articles in those colonies for many yews past. Now,
lion. Member for Weymouth waters at this description ) in the year 1821, the West India islands shipped to this country
(Laughter.) This person five years ago cultivated and ma- raw cotton to the amount of 5,854,5001 b ; in 1840, nineteen
'lured what had been rather a barren estate, according to the years afterwards, 866,0001 b; while the whole quantity which
most approved principles, sinking a good deal of money in it, came in now did not amount to more than from 12,0001 b, to
but last year he cleared 8001. The writer mentioned the ease 53,0001 b. Now, in 1821, the United States imported
of another who commenced some years ago with 6,000/. 116,000,00 alb. ; in le4o 154,000,0001 b. ; and it must
capital ; 4,0001. of this he spent in improving the land, and, be remembered that during the whole of this time the West
amongst other things, imported from England a stock of agri- In.liea had been enjoying a protection upon sugar as well as
cultural implements, and from Scotland some labourers, and in- upon cotton; but the United States had none whatsoever. And
stead of oxen he employed horses. Last year, after every expense, yet the exports of the one had increased, while the exports cf
this gentleman,who did not reside on his property, cleared 2,00 in. the other, :n the same article, had very materially diminished.
and had he resided op his estate would have cleared 500/. mere. Between the years 1830 and 1835 the exports of sugar into this
The surrounding estates belonged to absentee proprietors, they country from the colonies amounted to 3,375,819 cols. ; from
were losing money in them, as far as they were sinking it. 1837 to 1842 the amount was 3,868,500 cwts. But in the
The radical defect in the system was, that many proprietors article of cetie.e the results were still more striking. Between
hail too much land, only a portion of which was cultivated in a 1830 and 1835, the average exports of the West Indies
practical manner. The expenses were swallowed up with were 20,837,000/.—from 1836 to 1842 the amount was only
attorneys, overseers, and such-like persons, in short the greatest 16,618,5.001., showing that the article of cotton had given
evil resulted from this system of absentee proprietorship. In place to the production of sugar. In the article of coffee,
short, he (Mr. Cobden) thought that upon examination they they hail made progress also, while the production of cotton
would find that the same cause of agricultural depres- had retrograded to less than 20 per cent.—( Hear, hear)—
sion in this country operated in the West Indies—Protection. and notwithstanding, there was a protective duty
He had always found the very strongest argument for free more or less upon every one of these articles.—(Hear.)
trade when he sought for it in the condition of the agricultu- Monopoly acted as an opiate, and at the same time it made
rists; and if any one were thoroughly master of our colonial every interest grumblers. The West Indian interest, fifty
condition on the question of the sugar duties, it would, he be- years ago, made the most extraordinary complaints, and pro-
heated, be found the strongest ground for advocating the aboli- posed the most extraordinary remedies ; they prayed that
lion of protective duties, and the ultimate welfare and pros- slavery might not be abolished, on the score of humanity !
pertly of the colonies themselves. He would not enter into Yet they treated their negroes so barbarously that their numbers
further arguments on this question, but lion. Gentlemen op- constantly decreased. The Right Hon. Baronet recommended
pesite must not console themselves with the idea that this was science to the farmers. Lord Elgin, in Jamaica, thought his
a final settlement of the question.—( Hear, hear.) Look out Government distinguished because under it the first plough had
of doors. Had the principles of free trade advanced or been used in the island. Why was such advice given to two
retrograded?—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gen- such different bodies? Because they were both protected.
tleman talked of the small body of free traders—very No attempt whatever had been made to explain the difference
violent men he saint. Let him look to the free traders in that that was made between East Indian and Mauritius sugar; and
House, and whom they represented. Look, for instance, into it had been found necessary, by the late proceedings of the
the City of London, in which every house had a vote, and behold Board of Trade, to write a pamphlet, defending the Premier from
the test of the opinion of her citizens on this question. Were the supposition of having attacked the West Indian interest.
they the advocates of protection or free-trade ? Let the lion. He maintained that this system was hurtful, not only to the
Member fur Huntingdon answer that question, and tell him colonies, but to the characters of public men. On the pre-
the result. In the metropolis the question; he repeated, had posal of a reduction on the duty on gloves, silks, and other
been fairly tested. It was a fair open fight, protection or free articles, in 1824, the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) re-
trade ; or let them turn to Middlesex, or South Lancashire, or minded the House that the eyes of Europa were upon them,
the West Riding of Yorkshire, or Manchester, Glasgow, Edin- and called upon them not to yield to the fears of the timid or
burgh, Nottingham, or Derby—" violent men," free traders re- the representations of the interested. Why was he not equally
presented these great and important constituencies.— courageous in the matter of sugar ?—( Hear, hear.) The
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") What were these but Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the
the great expositors of public opinion ? They were not mere Home Department, in bringing forward his Bill fur
pocket burghs, from which votes might he counted in that making an alteration in the Law of Settlement, stated
House, but a vote there was not everything, argument that one in ten of the population of England and Wales were
should likewise be eoesilered.—(Cries of " Hear.") paupers, and a million and a half subsisted on parochial relief;
The arguments of Hon. Members opposite might be very well and that, since 1815, when the corn-law was passed, there
here ; but he could tell them that when they went out upon had been spent, in administering parochial relief, the sum of
the lobby of the House, they would find very few amongst two hundred millions. Must there not be something wrong in
their supporters hut those who were the representatives of the system, when it led to such an extent of pauperism ?
pocket boroughs and counties.—( Hear, hear.) Amid whatever The Chancellor of the Exchequer had not spoken on this ques-
the result of this debate might be—whatever side the vote tion, and he presumed the reason was that he was himself a
should be for—he could tell Hon. Members opposite that the West India proprietor. There was certainly mo-
decision of it would not end here; and if that vote should be (testy in that course; but still he thought the CI ancellor
in favour of protection, most decidedly it would be re,isted.— of the Exchequer ought to speak on such a question, arid
( Hear, hear.) It had been said that no more capital Wit, to consider only the public interests. He protested against
wanted to be expended by the owners of those distant estates ; the continuance of a system for which none but the lamest
but he would ask was not capital required to be expended in excuses were offered ; a system which formed the main barrier
the farming districts here ?—( Hear, hear.) He vs ould say, to that successful attack which must at no distant day be made
look at the town and neighbourhood of Macclesfield ; would it on that greatest of monopolies, the monopoly of the food of
be said that if free trade operated there it would not be a more the people.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition. ) This debate
prosperous town than it was, though it had its Duke? or would had gone on long enough.—(lronical cheers.) It was not at all
it be said that Jamaica would not be had recourse to because remarkable that corn and sugar monopolists should be found
free trade had been put in force there?—( Hear, hear.) banded together. lie believed no one who had risen on his
Irs fact the view taken of ti's whole question by lion. Mem- side of the question had expected to offer anything soothing
tiers opposite put him in mind of the sayings of old women, to the feelings of lion. Gentlemen opposite.--( Hear, hear.)
that sugar was not wholesome, in order to deter children from They were of another sort.--( Loud ironical cheers.) They
using it, because it was so der; but there never was a greater came there to produce an injustice, which they proclaimed out
mistake, for sugar, next to bread, was the most nutritious food •f doors, and which they did not proclaim with less freedom in
that could be used.—(llear. ) The whole cf the arguments, that House. " Don't suppose," said the Hon. Gentlemen,
then, of Honourable Gentlemen opposite, notwith- "that we aro here for any purposes of our own—(Laughter)--
standing all they had said about. their consideration and feeling or for any purposes of yours—( Ironical cheers and laughter
for the poor, vanished completely before their support of those from the Ministerial benches.) We are here for the purposes
class interests, whether of landlords or sugarlorde.—( Hear.) of those who sent us ; and if you were to do that which those
The professions of Hon. Members opposite, in regard to the who sent you profess to represent they sent you to do, or wish
poor, when contrasted whim their conduct upon this question, you to do, lam sure there would not be another debate wherein
led the people to say that the Government were treacherous, a single individual would stand up in favour of this gross injus-
that all they said was lip service, and that a difference of one tice—an injustice which, by-and-by, you will be ashamed of." In
penny in the pound in the price of sugar would make them the division there might be a very moderate minority in fivour of
throw the poor labourers and their families to the winds. the abolition of protection; but if they had had any experience
Mr. CARDWELL dal not conceive that the ob,ervations of in Parliamentary warfare they must recollect that all the great
the lion. Member who had just sat down were at all applicable questions which had been carried had been at one time
to the motion now under consideration. The Noble Lord the as far distant from being carried as that before the House.
Member for Sunderland had said that the arguments of lion. Why, when their slaves were being wrested from
Members at this side of the House were not confined to the them, within three years of the time when the Minister pro-
question at issue ; but he (Mr. Cardwell) would ask—did not posed' the abolition of slavery, the West India papers in their
the amendments proposed by the Hon. Alember opposite deal interest stated that the Anti-slavery Society was dead, and
entirely with the question in the abstract ?—(llear, hear.) that its last meeting at the Crown and Anchor Tavern was
Surely, then, it could r,ot be said that the Government were the effort of an expiring faction.—( Hear, hear ) They might
blameable for dealing in abstract principles, when the resolu- depend upon it, that the party which was in favour of a free
tions of the Hon. Members opposite were more than usually trade in sugar and a free trade in corn, was one that was every
remarkable for dealing in abstract principles, and entirely day swelling in numbers, while their own ranks were
wanting in facts and circumstances to support them. It was every day being thinned.—(Cheers from the Opposition. )
all very fine for lion. Members to talk of free labour, and all Although they might divide that night, and be in a minority,
that; he (Mr. Cardwell) sincerely hoped that the time would yet there would be other occasions before these sugar reso. come when slave labour would be done away with lutions were passed, when they could ask for an explanation
in the West Indies ; but he would ask—who first why this tax of two millions was imposed to benefit the East
established it ?—was it not that side of the House ?—( Hear, India proprietors and the planters of the Mauritius, who had
hear.) He would say to those lion. Gentlemen who were for no claim, and had made no claim for it.
doing away with the protection, let them re-enact the slave The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could assure
trade if they were anxious to permit Cuba and Brazil to corn- the House that there were many reasons for his not trespassing
pete with West India sugar,—( Hear, hear.) Several Hon. on the time of the House. The subject before the House had
Members had sand
that there would bee great increase in the been almost entirely exhausted, and if ho wanted proof of this,
consumption ; but the Noble Lord Member for Sunder- he need only refer to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who
land had said that the West Indies would produce sufficient to had just sat down, for in that the Hon. Gentleman had wan-
bear down all competition; yet, if the present measure pro- dered into every possible subject but that before the House.
posed by her Majesty's Government should be supported by The Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to impute to him (the
this House, there need be no apprehension on that ground.— Chancellor of the Exchequer) that he was actuated by feelings
( Hear, hear.) Even supposing that the price of West India if interest on this question, as he had property in the West
sugar were materially reduced, and that this country was to Indies. If the Hon. Gentleman had known him during the
depend for a supply on Cuba and Brazil, was there to be no number of years he had been in that House, he would not have
calculation made for the present price, with a view to doing expressed such an opinion. He (the Chancellor of the justice to the West India growers.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") Exchequer) thought lie might appeal to his politi-
He believed that the calculations made by some of the Hon. cal opponents as to his general political conduct.
Gentlemen were erroneous in a commercial point of view, It was not difficult to make these insinuations, and he usually
while the evidence which he had brought forward confirmed found them unnoticed, and he would have done so now had
the great increase which was now going on in the produce of not the charge been so pointedly made. The Hon. Member
the East and West Indies, under a process which a-as entirely for Stockport had in the course of his speech read a letter.
unobjectionable, and calculated to promote their own commer- Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had seen that letter
cial schemes. The Hon. Member who last sat down had intro- and the first paragraph in it—which the Honourable
darted into this discussion topics which he could nut help think- Member for Stockport did not read—advocated the
ing were quite unnecessary. The Honourable Member had imposition of a discriminating duty of 10s. upon foreign sugar.
thought proper to cast imputations on the Government Mr. COBDEN—I gave the facts of last year.
which might recoil upon himself.—([fear, hear.) The The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER repeated his
Honourable Member said the people would call them statement that the opening of the letter contained an argument
"hypocrites," and he gave this as his reason for thinking so. in favour of a discriminating duty. He apologised for being
The Hon. Member said that a great number of the persons unprepared to enter into this question, as he intended to do so
who formed themselves into an anti-slavery body ten years ago, on the motion of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of
were now joined with him in a cry for cheap sugar. Now, peo- London.
ple out of doors might draw their inferences from this as well Lord SANDON rose amid loud cries of " Divide, divide."
as from what fall from Hon. Members on the Ministerial side He said that Hon. Gentlemen opposite had gone on the as-
of the House. They were quite as likely to impute hypocrisy sumption that the amount of duty regulated the price of foreign
to the one as to the other.—(Cheers.) They were pursuing a and colonial sugar. Nothing could be more fallacious than
rudential course now ; but if they were to follow the recom- this. The difference between the duty on foreign and colonial
mendation of the lion. Member for Stockport, the slavery sugar now was 635. and 245., and yet in the price the diffe-
market would be revived, and then they would see those gen- rence was only 7s. The only thing which regulated price was
tlemen to whom the Hon. Member alluded getting up a new the supply.
agitation against slavery.—( Hear.) Now, on the other hand, he Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
showed them that their supplies were being increased without divided, when there appeared,
resorting to this objectionable source, and without disturbing For the Amendment ..
the existing interests of the country', and he therefore did not Against it
think it advisable to adopt a recommendation which was not Majority —l27
sanctioned either by the commercial body or the public The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
generally. House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.
Mr. BRIGHT said the Right Hon. Gentleman who had
just addressed the House had taken upon himself to say that
the proposition which had been submitted to the House was
one of an abstract character. Now, there was sufficient evi-
dence to induce him to believe that some Members of that
House thought otherwise.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
for Cumberland, who was a West India proprietor, he did not
recollect having seen in the House since the time when the
sugar duties were discussed during the last session, and if he
was not mistaken, the Hon. Member came from a distant
capital of Europe for the purpose of meeting this abstract
proposition.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the
late President of the Board of Trade, did not consider it an
abstract proposition, for he had shown extraordinary symptoms
of resuscitation that eveniug.—( Laughter.) The Right lion.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had invested his
countenance in more than usual solemnity, notwithstanding
the abstract matter of the propositioa. He could
say that this proposition was the most plain, the most easy to
understand, that had ever been submitted to that or any other
House of Legislation.—( Hear, hear.) The proposition which
had been made was that the system of taxation pursued with
respect to sugar was unsatisfactory to the great body of the
people of this country, nor could it he otherwise, unless the
duties imposed on foreign and colonial sugar were equalised.
They maintained that the Government, by collusion with the
West Indies, the East Indies, and time Mauritius planters, were
taking from the people of this country a very large annual tax,
which they were not paying into the exchequer of the Queen,
but handing it over to the sugar plantation proprietors.
Now, there had always been a great stickler against discussing
this question, and this they found in pocket interests.—( Hear,
hear.) What were the grounds on which they claimed to
levy this tax upon the consumers of sugar in this country ?
No doubt, the same as those advanced in this country in favour
of the landlord's monopoly. The lion. Member for Sheffield
had given notice of his intention to move for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the burdens which presseedlon. Landlords
before
on the landed
interest, but it would not be granted. No, th
were afraid to bring their especial burdens that House,.
and the same might be said of the sugar planters. Now,
he was looking that morning over the speech
Right Honourable Baronet when he madewhat
of the
he called
his financial statement. He found the whole amount of sugar
which may be expected from the West Indies, in the coming
year, was stated to lie 140,000 tons, from the East Indies
70,000, and from the Mauritius 40,630 tons, making a total of
250,000 tens. Now the Bight lion. Gentleman the late Pre-

NEY and COMMERCIAL NEWS.

CITY' MONDAY EVENDTG.
The Funds close tolerably well, though not so good as on
Saturday.: Consols have been 99% to par. New Three-and-
a-Quarter per Cents. have continued at 104% to 104%. East
India Stock has realised 282 to 283.
Spanish Five per Cents. receded to 27%. Portuguese
Converted were 601% to 61; Peruvian, 30% % ; and Bra-
zilian, 88% to 89%. Dutch Two-and-a-Half per Cents.
were 63%.
The additional transactions in Railway Shares have been
these :—Bristol and Exeter were 12%; Cambridge and Lin-
'
coln, 1% to 1; Chester and Holyhead, 2%; Churnet
; Dublin and Galway, 1,4 ; Eastern Counties,
11;
Eastern Union, ex-New, 7:%; Edinburgh and Glasgow, Valley,
24 ;
88; Great
Grand Junction, 124; Great North of England,
Western. Half, 50 to 49; Ditto, Fifths,
. 12; Guildford and
Portsmouth, 13/4 to 21A ; Harwich, , Birmingham' 129;
Brighton, 714 ; South-W 38
estern, ; l.roydon, 33/4 ; London
and York, 4%%; Manchester and Leeds,
to 27 ; N
65;e11:„Icame andhest
and Birmingham, 22% - Midland,
Berwick, 12% to 12%; Richmond and West-End, 2%1A ;
South-Eastern, 6%; Ditto, New,
No. 1,7 to 6 D
Rugby and Tring, 2143
o-,_15!.43. 2, 7 to 6 ; Waterford and Kil-
kenny, 1%; 34r;
k and North Midland, 54; Do. and Selby,
-
443 ; Boulogne and Amiens, 3%3/4 ' • Bordeaux and Tou-
louse, % ;
Orleans. and Bordeaux, 4% ; and Paris and
Rouen, 22% premium. Direct Northern have been %;
Blackwall, 94, and Greenwich, 2 discount. Commercial
Bank of London Shares were 1 premium.
(Prot; The Sun of Last Night.)
There was but a moderate business traesacted in Cotton at
Liverpool on Saturday, the total sales amounting to 3,000 or
4,000 bales, of which 1,000 were on speculation. There was
no alteration in prices.—Shares were dull, and prices were
depressed. Aberdeen. 23/4 ; Caledonian 714 ; Cheater and
Birkenhead, 381 A ; Ditto and Holyhead', 8% 8 ; Dublin and
Cashel Extension, ; Ditto and Drogheda, 771/2 ; Eastern
Counties, 17% ; Edinburgh and Glasgow, 61 ; Glasgow,
Dumfries, and Carlisle, 18s. 6d. 16s. 6d. ; Churnet 7% ; Great North of England, 401., 43 ; Kendal and Win-
dermere, 41h %; Lancaster and Preston, 49%; Liverpool
and Manchester, 202 ; Ditto, Half, 1021/.. ; London and
Birmingham, 237 ; Ditto, 32/. Shares, 423/4 74 ; Ditto, Quar-
ter Shares, 2914 ; London and Brighton, 5814 58 ; London
and South-Western 79%; London and York, 7% • Man-
chester and Birmingham, 62; Midland Counties, 12614'125%;