The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-27 00:00:00

eal(' "-----e -
to notbed-- insinishecl; but hecouldneverbring his mind t power that ought not to be granted to them. He
sse4,llell a conclusion. The greatest activity had been , thought if the Right Hon. Baronet wished to consult the
~,:-ato confirm the working classes in their deli: ion.— , public good and the opinion of the manufacturers, he
!is..r, hear.) Some trouble ought to be taken by them would alter this clause.
neoels,reove it.--(Hear, hear.) There was no immediate ! After a few observations from Mr. BLAKEMORE,
aitY for the Bill. Nobody was anxious for the Bill I Sir J. GRAHAM said he quite agreed wiqs. the Hon.
914; the Nees,Bill. If an inquiry were granted, he would be 1 Member for Durham as to the necessity of the Govern-
-014 ~ uy the evidence. They could not interfere with- ment not asking for powers that should be needlessly
~, tu.reinishing capital; they could not diminish capi- exercised. • The powers given by this clause would not
7'tw.iithotit diminishing competition ; and they could be called into effect as a general rule ; they would only
tdi„,"_that by Act of Parliament. If they wanted to be exercised in cases where the inspectors, or sub-inspec-
th ."'-uisli competition, they must do so by increasing ! tors, had reason to believe that the law was violated,
neeeitle_iMand for the labour, that was the only way they and apprehended that the legal power of the master to
set b" so ; and they would only aggravate the present exclude the sub-inspector would be used to conceal a
tee Passing an Act of Parliament which would have vielation .of it.
effect of diminishing capital.—(Hear, hear.) '.Mr. M. 'PHILIPS thought there might be a more
le es
_, GRAHAM explained. minute division of the manufacturing districts, and that
sot ;:ru, ASHLEY said he should not have risen were it an inspector might be made resident in each district.
fee
What had fallen from his Hon. Friend, the Mem- He should wish to ask whether some such _classification
the "3,t;.Wolverhampton, who said that nobody cared for could.not be made?
that Bill qua the Bill. ,He begged to contradict Sir J. GRAHA ‘i said that at present the whole of
Pork.
were statement, for he ! was quite sure the the manufacturing districts of the country ere divided
pertiongclasses were anxious for the larger into four parts, over each of which was an inspector,
itemcin of the Bill. They regarded the Bill, as now with sub-inspectors through all the subdivisions of these
its-e", ueed, ai a very great improvement, and many of districts. Thus the Secretary of State had, by means of
gritrisions had an admirable tendency. They were these four inspectors, through the sub-inspectors,. a con-
s trittil to the Government for having introduced such trol over all the manufacturing districts of the kingdom.
of
~_. It was grounded on the report of the Committee He had formerly entertained an opinion similar to that
isiii",,nch he had the honour to be Chairman, before expressed by the Hon. Member, but he had subsequently
WeZe three or four very eminent manufacturers seen reason to prefer the present
menthearangement.
thelexamined. Now he had to assure the House and Mr. HUME sail that at the ti y were removing
hniVit. Member for Finsbury, that the delay which all restrictions from every trade it was melancholy to
eiei'd he caused by sending this Bill to a Committee hear a declaration from the Secretary of State, that he
ri,„ be a source of groat disappointment..-. must have under his control the whole of the manufac-
tee - et " Hear, hear.") Those who represented turing districts; that was, that he must control all the
4,,,.., Operatives of Yorkshire and Lancashire were cotton manufactures of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear:)
pinel,zus about the Bill. 14id not the Hon. Member for 'ln attempting it, he was undertaking what no one could
tier, 'lre' knovr this ? Had he not received informa- ! possibly perform. It appeared to him an intelerence
Neon the subject ? They begged of him not to inter- ! totally uncalled for, and he felt that the House ought to
sent any delay, or to use his influence in getting the Bill be ashamed to sanction it. He could only enter his pro-
p stairs to a Committee. He (Lord Ashley) test against it; the whole Bill would not only be a nul-
iteeeewe t his business to inquire on the subject, and he i liter, but would be a discredit to the country; the Go-
Poit,,„the working men would be most bitterly disap- 1 vernment seemed to think that it could manage the
steee.7 if the Bill were delayed one hour longer than was ' capital of the kingdom better than the manufacturers
eeirrrY,r• They felt that no good would come from in- themselves. •
4t,"_,8,e-ssionh,eoßr,ilplewrhoauplds, be thrown back to the end of Mr. TATTON EGERTON objected to the power
till next session. Hee-wished to given to the sub-inspectors to visit mills without the
voeuititdentering upon the main question of wages, but he presence of witnesses. •
I,4hdr:onclu
,de by imploring the Hon. Gentleman to Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the inspectors
beeauself his motion, and not to divide the House ; could not, in any case, adjudicate. That power was
succeed in en`Leould succeed in carrying it, he would not taken away from them. They could now only state facts,
?ions of the uduing the hopes, or calming the expects- in the way of reporting to the Government.
workin i
Mr. co.BD -g classes.—(Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. BROTHERTON, the
shertege thde EN said that if by a measure which would clause was agreed to.
efehe hours of labour they could obtain one-tenth Clause 4 was agreed to without discussion. •
s"° Pers °()
promised by the advocates of such a measure, On clause 5, which proposes the establishment of a
for the it," ordinary humanity would refuse to vote central office, of inspection, to be situated in the metro •
little " ,",,I, 80 simple as it was in its character, and so polls,- being put,
li. calculated to de injury to anybody else.—(Hear, Mr. MARK PHILIPS said he had the greatest ob. At ,
il But the question was, would a Ten Hours' Bill jection to the clause. London was the very worst place
_en ,
td tkeilt them if wages were to be reduced in proportion in which such an office could be established. He knew
qvue hours'of work ? He observed that amongst the nothing of the nature of the documents which formed
tle c'eates of the measure there was a shrinking from the records of the business of the inspectors, but he was
co!Question—(Hear, hear)—but it was the main ques- convinced that, if they created this office, it would only
do
He was unwilling to adopt the phrase be the commencement of a more extensive system of the
tenti3rking classes." It implied a distinction ; lie thought Same kind. He thought such records might, with great
wis, there should be no distinction of interests, but he propriety, be transmitted to the Board of Trade. The
vetnetl to say that if they passed a Ten Hours' Bill, Home -office was not the best place for tkem. All that
thet ~,Lie Prospect of benefiting the working classes, and the Secretary of State had to do, was to see that the
the ;ages were to be reduced in proportion to the time, duty of the inspectors was performed according to law.
toe; laboured under a delusion that it would be accept- He viewed the creation of this office with great jealousy,
eteeto them, The real question was raised by the Hon. and he should oppose the insertion of the clause.
que7,l;Der for Finsbury, and it was a most important Sir J. GRAHAM defended the formation of the office,
tVat`t°e to raise in the preliminary step of the Bill— on the ground that it would, at a very small cost, kt_fur-
houquestion was, Would the reduction of the hours of nish the means of organising a mass of most valuable
r reduce the rate of wages ?—(Hear, hear.) Now, information.
tentow,ere the working classes paid in the cotton dis- Lord HOWICK thought that the objection of the Hone
lear)l They were paid by the piece.—(Hear, Member for Manchester to the clause, was a good one.
hieh t lie had met with but two arguments It tended to take the attention of the inspectors from.
he e„.,ended to show that the same rate of wages would their districts, and to fix it on London. If an establish-
leiteltl, though the time of working was diminished. ment of this kind was created, the inspectors would be
the r.at was, that the manufacturers would increase apt to be making work for themselves. He thought that
l'foejaPeea of their machinery, and by this means they twenty resident inspectors with one intelligent senior
tee4;Produce in ten hours what was now produced in clerk at the Home-office to receive their reports; would
!Me,' Re had taken pains to inquire into that fact,• be a more satisfactory organization in that department..
e„tisneekanswer he ot was this, that the machinery was Sir J. GRAHAM had formerly entertained a some-
',es, t lis ?Y- the steam-engine, and that it was driven as what similar opinion, but he had seen reason to change
there ~,It was profitable to work it—(Hear, hear)—and it since he had become more acquainted with the system.
the ra.as rather a tendency in some places to diminish He said that the arrangement would be Most conducive
Ouse riditY of machinery rather than accelerate it, be- to the convenience of the public service.
tiley ibY increasing the rapidity of the movements Mr. BROTHERTON suggested that Manchester
issre%se't More in waste than they gained by the should be substituted for London, as the place for de-
,Peete, e fir Production.—(Hear, hear.) The next pro- positing the records.
he,l•l,itieni.,A, e had heard put forward was this—that by Mr. HUME thought there was no necessity for the
:uing the hours of labour from twelve to ten, creation of a special office. A clerk in the Secretary of
!hist it -e`,1114 be a diminished produce in the market, and State's office could receive and collate the reports. The
'Res, ueould there sell for the same price, seeing that principle of the Bill was to compel the inspectors to re-
there e"'°ul,-d be no more to he sold ; and, consequently, side in their districts, and this establishment of an office
"cited e.°l-nd be one-sixth more mills erected, which in London was in direct contravention of the principle
gut thieraPloy the same number of hands as at present. of the Bill.
`kstl 4 argument proceeded on .the supposition that a Mr. F. MAULE was glad to find that the experience
tile ntinantity of cetton goods would be sold, whatever of the Right Hon. Gentlemen had induced him to conic
qegertdee was, forgetting that the present price of cotton to the opinion that the system of the inspectors and the
tiettieseed on its cheapness, and that the manufacturers sub-inspectors was the best. He recollected the time
t 144,7 great sales of cotton' in consequence of its when the Ri -ht Hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to
thirlesse--(Rear, hr. It was in consequence of force opposite views upon him (Mr. F. Mettle).
had
wss
'Perk; acilities in obtaining iron and coals, and the long glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentleman now
15siledna.g hours of the 1 bu ing men that 'they had exs come round to his views. He should support the clause.
the ee• „`" Power-loom aail rs
innii jenny, no:, only in Mr. C. WOOD could not understand the necessity for
Lye tdenet,rY, hut had even Psuperseded the distaff and the constitution of this new office in London. All the
b'e aen,-71e in other countries. PNow if they increased changes which had been proposed did away with the
t:se• -",i'_'? the manufacturers, the price would be in necessity for it. While the inspectors posse.ssed the
tt te‘siZxestld they would perhaps force other countries ' power of making regulations, there might be some ne-
troise nei`a,‘heir spindle and distaff, where they were now cessity for their having an office in London, in which to
b:,.:Y eould-Z Now these two arguments, if arguments meet and deliberate, but that power was now taken from
1e_,,1111 it
ttlle w7orkciainicia, were put forward and impressed them, and there was no necessity for the creation of a
men with great earnestness. He new office.
'jteeir forgrante that they would see the unsoundness Sir J. GRAHAM said that the inspectors were now
Nedy Views, and that their wages would be reduced if obli"ed to come -to London twice every year. The
itk
.I!educed the time. That was admitted by the Hon. clause, in fact, only established an additional clerk or
t's Dn *riled Member for Winchester. That seemed to two to assist the inspectors when they came to London.
tsierierally admitted. If it were admitted, and put Mr. STRUTT asked who was the head of the new
Ivoeirl, honestly and fairly before the labouring. men, office ? If the office was to consist of only one or two
(Ilea; teY then be anxious for a Ten Hours' Bill? additional clerks, why could not they be attached to the
!its -, Ilear.) Let them recollect that they had short- Home Secretary's-office ?
eft: Yerk before in the cotton districts. Did the men Sir J. GR ItIA;I did not attach any particular int-
i it?_ (Hear,
tet.Y.4..‘tind got( 4r; days' wages
They worked eight- hours a portance to the clause—(Hear, hear)—but lie had pro-
wages for their labour.—(llear, posed the appointment on the ground of economy. The
Iltei) I),d- the working •te find the wages raised for salaries and allowances of the clerks in the Home Se-
itrpli"l're:;_nslYpef:kuirn
fl4atYos'ai;%'or Iten?—( Hear , hear.) No. He cretary's-office were on a high scale. The clerks in this
ehi h vt" in tow eminent manufacturer,. who was office would be appointed at a lower salary, and the ac-
c e'er 0:• n, Upon the subject. He had mills commodetion in the Home Secretary's-office was so very
formed e eleven h -
le_ hire ttrkt
.i. y two steans•engine3, and he in- limited, that if additional clerks were appointed for this
tirniee slower the,l one of them worked even half en p.urpose it would be necessary to procure for them addi-
14.metion in
the the other, there was a perceptible tional accommodation.
th 'l4g
adtted
ty t(,wages of .the men:—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would
140 Proc 4 e—they were indisputable—would give up the clause. If the office was to have._ no Ileac
'l3rilarti fordthe° a law to diminish the wages of there was no necessity for the clause ; but if they ap-
twP°ltritssing classes? Did they think the pointed a new office, it would not be long before a head
,11sre fveeB of Lancashire would thank them and bless was appointed to it. If the clause passed, within two
;Nee er Passing such an Act? for that was what it years an lnspector-General would be appointed. This
11'.1See thee to. They were going to pass an Act to office had been shadowed forth in a Factory Bill some.
,'sk, Wee wages of the working classes. Did they two or three years ago, on which occasion some allusion
I.ekpe ruatever basis they could put it on, they could had been made to the appointment of an Inspector-Ge-
le a -r'ru the obloquy of passing such an Act? A neral. He was astonished that the Right Hon. 'Baronet
to meal had
I, the ee__, been said in this discussion with regard should give encouragement to the Factory InTecters to
ti':,hehainct of free traders. The free traders had come about the Home-office. He wash sure theexpe-
-0 the ATI with being friendly to long hours of labour, rience of the last two years must have convinced the
slsify "•un. Member for Finsbury had undertaken to Right Hon. Baronet of the great harm which was oc
1 i4litittPeairties on this subject, and he divided them into ca Toned by these incessant meddlings.with trade.. There
kiettiber f asses and free traders. 'But he told the Hon. were but two Factory Inspectors residing in the districts,
0.44 r -Finsburee, who represented himself as the one in Kent and the other at Stroud, but neither Mr.
ilfee the of the working classes, that the working classes Horner nor Mr. Saunders, the Inspectors of Lancashire
:IL. b4efriends.of free trade. Indeed, he (Mr. Cobden) and the West Riding of Yorkshire, resided in their dis-
reh Upbraided with having, at several meetings tricts. There were already jobs enough in the country,
414 the he Called in various parts -of the country, none and no good would arise from this office. He thought
,„!.,„,, lower orders as his hearers—that he was the Right Hon. Baronet must have had as much of fac-
t7teti•,.°4 only in his free trade doctrines by the tory legislation within the last two years as was agree-
11'114 tr:ta- . But with regard to the accusation of able to him.
!The great body of the manufacturing inte-
-4,' Iv r-i7s being the friends of long hours for rest were against this clause, and he hoped the Right
el the °lt-d'lng classes, he (Mr. Cobden) stood there. Hon. Baronet would withdraw it.
ties N V°eate of the only means by which the working Mr. STUART eVORTLEY supported the clause.
atild ,e),11,14 have a mitigation of their labour. He He thought that the apprehensions of the Hon. Member
te-p".teeTil,s' them how they -could shorten what he must for Durham, that the constitution of this office would
to 'es. i`ereasonably long hours of work in manufac- lead to the appointment of an Inspector-General, were
her Lon I•`e did not say, as the Noble Lord the Member unfounded.
th'tki, e7e(111, bad said, that a reduction. of the price of Mr. M. PHILIPS hoped the Right llon. Baronet
beoper„:!', and other necessaries, would compensate would withdraw the cause. There was no necessity for
Cie 4,""ves for any reduction in wages consequent the creation of the office, and nothing could be worse
te„) dida„Bening of the hours of labour. He (Mr. Cob- than the appointment of clerks without a bead. If that
t;„‘t,o e"l3,et look to any reduction in the price of bread, office were created returns would be constantly moved
it",,kten„,'°'lee, or any other thing, as a means of con- for from it-, the printing of which would entail a great
if ley b the labourer for any reduction of wages. But expense to the country.
tiit.tey :°uld enlarge the market of the manufacturer— Dr. BOWRING entreated the Right Hon. Baronet to
to eo 'old allow a free exchange of the productions of withdraw the clause, which was feebly supported and
t tet4 Il
in
try for the corn, sugar, and coffee of other strongly opposed. It was unpalatable in the
anufac-
-Itll4 n
9', without any restriction whatever—they would, taring districts, and there was something objectionable
st' a%2t m eans, so raise the value of the pro- in the creation of a new office.
Ito tsi of the operative, and, in consequence, After a few words from Sir J. GRAHAM, the Coin-
s,.°,Sle `,ae of his labour—(Hear, hear)—and they mittee divided—
li'al s‘"so at the same time so enhance the value'of ca- For the clause
iZttlitnetiptitieYed in manufactures, that it was his firm be- Against it 53
sh 3 e labourer with ten hours' work might have Majority in favour of the clause
ttltil mUCh wages as he now had, and capitalists as Clanses 6 and 7 were agreed to.
istwlte-t• That was not his own opinion merely. On clause 8 being proposed, which provides that no
the
ei eieh, "Pinion of a most intelligent capitalist, and manufacturer shall take a child into.
.his employment
14, te th 'e in conversation with him, he said, " You may without first obtaining a surgeon's certificate,
kkettqleltee,liottse of Commons, and state that lam ready Mr. BROTHERTON objected, on account of the
op iis bargain with them • that if they remove all burden it threw on the manufacturers. This burden
IN, el I. . lire thee- that obstruct commerce, I will immediately was not less than 20,0001. a year. He should move, on
tij: as lame wages for ten hours' work to my opera- bringing up the report, the insertion of a clause to re-
s,')‘+'hieil, ocrw give them. He thought the investiga.- medy this.
kiled ten", would be had before the Select Committee Mr. M. GIBSON would support the views of the Hon.
th„.• the dl„ Very much to clear up the disputed points Member for Salford.
ettsespeieerences of view on the subject, and he would After a few words from Sir J. GRAHAM and Mr.
, tf,itisZilete for the amendment of the Hon. Member BRIGHT, the clause was agreed to.
Ito trap ry, Clauses 9 and 10 were, after some discussion, also
Ilse ,liversiae were then ordered to withdraw, and the agreed to.
V d- The numbers were— Clauses from 11 to le, inclusive, with verbal amend-
or •
17' geteg into Committee
() the amendment 42 Clause 19 was agreed to, after a few words from Mr.
is ,ss 4 Majority —lo3 Ward, Sir J. Graham, and Mr. M. Philips.
o'greh°,ll. use then went into Committee, Mr. GREENE On - clause 20 there was some discussion, several'l
'4 tr. Members having objections to offer. In the midst of
put the question, and the clause was
Os ases i
ke ei,,, - and 2 were agreed to without discussion. •themdri.scGuiszsEioEn,NE
ids 3Ve.„3 being read,
'iothe remarksPHILIPS
which he had made on a firmer occa- Mr. BRIGHT _ was objecting. to the clause, whop. , •
Niller, ting sub-insectors of factories he had never Mr. GREENE informed hoti that it had assectj•—;
'le' '1,1,-nY Personal attack on the present sub-inspec- Mr. BRIGHT-said hehad not observed t.—Gear.).
te4-41 he" manufacturers were desirous that the officers Clause 21 was thin proposed ;it provides that inae!
chinery shall be guarded.-
NAleiti, all of the same class, for though they had no
4,tl' of against theresent they looked to the oontin-
effect,l‘lr aßniciAsalilgEgeNsltoeßd Ethastacidlautshees
tcolatuhsee would be of no
:16,7,..turzPert.sons being appointed to the situation of sub-
.
NI; lzwuo were not so respectable as the present be substituted :
eier be would would suggest that for the future there "Two magistratentsjeuttiroyphoteuonetmhispe,opi•gersreoetidnle,trofrytao.wmitahrddielfdercaigtnihivaetgoeorsf
File '''' SUCh distinction as that of inspectors and nacotti
it is no
Ot GRAHAM
'tZtsi the begged leave to observe, with re- ill ill secured machinery.
"The party injured to be allowed, say five days, to elect
tie Powers ven by this clause, that it was
li ete ti °I th
ki hied . e powers of the inspectors. They had whether to accept the damages orproceed with theaction.
"In case of proceeding. with the action, the damages
03. with the power of making rules and regula-
hat was
ft',tli t 4) be now taken from them, and all rules i! awarded by the magistrates to be applied, es far as ne-
Itrespc made by Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) cessary, in paying the expenses of the action, and for
4te
efi selected
robed.,
~, to the character of the sub inspectors, he that purpose to be deposited v •th the clerk of the peace.
oe esention that they were, with one single ex- ! "The ma magistrates warrant of conviction and award to
g
be received in the courts as the declaration on which the
It' c_te' there by his predecessors, and, since he came !
Om iTeers. had not been a single complaint against ,
! "The' depositions taken by the magistrates to be the
Om 'IGHT - action is tried.
ten , for . said that unless there was some good ! instructions to counsel.
appointedthe judges, the
Ils snefLing!inspectors the power of entering any !
"Factory counsel to be
eAactory any time they pleased, it was tt
same as revising barristers now are, .
„ .