The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

FORGERY OF BANK NOTES.

Mr. BARING said he had a Petition friirn an individual,
James Ferguson, stating, that the Petitioner had devised a.pleda
for preventn.g forgeries, of the effleecy' of •whith he had no
More doubt than-of-his own existence, and coniplaiiiieg that
the Commissioners had • not made theniselves acquainted srhii
the merits of his plan. -He (Mr. Baring) believed the Ped-
tionen to be: a very respeetaLle- inecherne, and ; very ,clever
man ; hat he could not say Whether the Corernissiontrs had er
had net done justice to the Petitioner's ingenuity. t' • - -
The Petition was Lid on the table.
- • .
• • - CATHOLIC CLAIMS. ••-
Mr. W. COUBTENAY prl.sented a Petition from the Car.-
portion of Exeter F.gainst the Catholic Claims. Ile could not,
however,: concur' witn the view of his Constituents; for he be-
lieved that the passing of the Bills ;Nor.; before the House;woulil
contribute to the stability, not only of the Constitutioa,- but of
the PrcteStant religCnn. —(llcnr.)- • -
The Marquis of TAYISTOCK presented. a Petition .from.
the friends of ielit-;:ms, liberty in Isedforci4re, preyietnat
the Bills before the House in taveur Of •relicrious linetty sac:111cl
pass into laws:-Orderdd to lie on the table..
ROMAN CATHOLIC DISABI LI TY REMOV.A L BILL.
Mr: I'Luxxvrtsaid he rose, not to submit any-
new propo:iition to the' Howe on..the present oz.-
casion, but to mention the- course which he pro-
posed to he taken in consequence of suggestions
from Both sides of the House. The House were
aware'that the last time the subject was uncler
discussion, several members had expressed their
intentions of submitting alterations in the Com-
mittee. Therefore, that the [loose might not be
taken-_by•-surprize, • he: agreed'- that the House
should go into a Comniitti'e now, merely tba
there might be an. opportunity for bringing up. the
new clauses, in -order to. have them printed. Th,el
Bill could then-be-after-wards re-committedyand
fully discussed in the Committee. The-clause;;,
so far as he. understood,• made no alterations in.
the principle of-the Bill; and -as to their'extent,
they .would not• take airy. Considerable time na
printing.' From the opposite side he hrtd heard
frorri i4l embers he' highly. respected, and
whorn-
from his own tide of The Mouse it had been

gelded, that the explanation of the Oath of §u-
premacy shduld be incorporated in the Oath.
There were conveniences and inconveniences in
adopting this suggestion. A Right Hon. ,Gen-
tleman whom he saw opposite thought it anoma-
lous, however, to have an explanation detached
from the Oath itself. But it was not his inten-
tion now to enter into any discussion on this or
any other points of the subject. He had only
risen to explain his object in moving that the
House go into a Committee on the Bill.
The Order of the Day was then read for the
House's going into a Committee on the Roman
Catholic Disability Removal Bill.
On the question that the SPEAKER do now
leave the chair—

Sir J. NICHOLL rose and said, that if the ob-
ject of the Right lion. and Learned Gentleman
was merely to have the blanks in the Bill filled
up, the new clause added to it, and the Bill itself
,committed pro fbreta, he, for one, should offer
no opposition to the motion, as he wished to see
the Bill, with all its ,details, in the improved
, state in n tacit it was.proposed to pass it. He
,should, however, wish the Right Ron. and-Learn-
ed Gentleman to give hint an answer to one ques-
tion ; and that question was, " when was the Bill
to be recommitted ?---was it to be in the next
week ?" As the House had already divided on
the principle -ofestfie Bill, he did not intend to
.offer any opPOsition to the committal of the Bill ;
but he thought it of great importance that the
House should have some previous notice of the
time when that committal would take place. The
measure which was involved in it was more ltn-
.portant to the Constitution than any measure
_which had been submitted to Parliament since
the restoration, or, at least, since the Revolu-
tion ; for it tended to produce a most material
alteration icy . its spirit and character. The Con-
.stitntion, as at present established by law—and
he spoke of no other—excluded Roman Catholics
from any share in the political power or the public
. trust of the country ; whereas the present Bill
gave them both. political power and public trust.
As so important a change ought not to be made
without a certainty of its giving satisfaction not
only to the majority of the Protestant, but also
of the Catholic community, he thought that the
measure which was to produce it ought not to
be discussed any further in the House until
after the Easter recess.—(Cries of " Ilear," and
laughter.)—He did not say so from any desire to
have a number of Petitions got up against the Bill,
but from a desire to enable the House to see its
way distinctly, and. to discover whether the Ca-
tholics would be satisfied with the boon of eman-
cipation in the way in which it was now proposed
'to give it them Even if the measure were to stand
over 'to another Session—(Loud cries of " No,
no," and 44 Hear, hear !" mingled with some
laughter)—it would not be more perhaps than
the country wonld have a right to expect; at any
rate, he thought that the measure ought to-be de-
layed until after; the Easter recess. He wished
to know whether the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman would 'have any objection to postpone
the Matter until that period.—(Hear!)
Mr. PLUNAcwrr begged 10 In nersnittefl te
- —us iu reptylo the night Hon,. Gentle-
man who had just sat down. As the Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated that the only object for
which he .had risen was to ask when he (Alt.
Plunkett) intended to have the Bill recommitted,
he (Mr. Plunkett) thought that he (Sir J.
Nichol!) might have dispensed with the argu-
ment which hs hod used against the principle of
it. He would not enter into any discussion with
'the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether the consti-
tution existed in the enactments of positive laws
only, or whether it had a principle beyond them;
though he might be permitted to say that some
of its most valuable privileges did not rest upon
any of its written laws.—(hear.)—lndeed, if its
privileges were merely the privileges of a paper
constitution, he did not think that the Roman
Catholics would show such anxiety as they now
did to participate in them: but the Right Hon.
Gentleman's question, instead of relating to one
object only, as
,he bad stated, related to three
objects. He fiat wanted to know whether he
(Mr. Plunkett) would delay the further discus-
sion of this question until next week ; he then
wanted to know- whether he would delay it till
after the Easter recess; and, finally, whether he
would delay it till the next session of Parliament,
—(.Bear, and a laugh.)—A motion had been
made on a -former evening to adjourn the 2d read-
ing of the Bill till that day six months i that mo-
tion bad been negatived ; but, notwithstanding
that circumstance, the Right Hon. Gentleman was
not discouraged, bat came forward with a very
modest pro.pesal, which amounted only to
this—that the Bill should be committed that
day twelvemonth.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
eselio was willing to allow that it was desirable
that this question should not be hurried through
the House, and he could assure them that he did
not wish to take any part of it by surprise. In-
deed he did not conceive how, that could be done,
ai.a considerable time had elapsed since he had
originally given notice of this question, and also
'since he had first made his motion upon it. Be-
sides; there Was not a single point-likely to arise
in the Committee, :which hail not been debated
in the previote‘i discnssions. He should therefore
inform the Right lion. Gentleman, that it was
'his intention to recommit the Bill on Wednesday
-next.—(Near, hearl)The mainalteration which'
lie should haste to 'make in the Committee,' was
to propose that the explanation of the oath which
the Catholics were in fature to take, should be
incorporated with the oath itself, instead of being
annexed to it as he had originally proposed ; and
that point had been already argued at consider-
able length. If the Right Hon. Gentleman wish-
ed to have the discussion postponed to a later
day than that which he had named, he was sorry
that he could not oblige him by consenting to his
wishes. Jibe (Mr. Plunkett) had been the only
person inconvenienced by the postponement of
it, he would willingly have granted the delay
requited ; but as he knew that many Gentlemen
on both sides of the question were kept in town,
and at a great and-heavy inconvenience to them-
selves, by this question alone, he could not con-
sent to postpone the discussion of it beyond Wed-
nesflay ; indeed he should almost prefer going

into the Committee that night, with Ont aiy post=
ponement at all, to postponing it to a late 'and
distant day.---(Hear, hear !)
Sir W. SCOTT could not agree with the Right
Hon. and Learned.. Gentleman in thinking that
Wednesday next *Could be a proper time for the
recommitnient of the Bill. There were many
Members of the House who would be prevented
by professional avocations from paying that at-
tention to the alterations in it which they de-
served in the course of a day or two; and it was
therefore only right that a reasonable time should'
ue permitted to 'elapse before they were called
upon to make a decision as to the propriety or
impropriety of them. The improved Bill would
not be pritited and in the hands of Members till
-Wednesday morningi or at the earliest not till
Tuesday evening. Calls of public duty might
prevent Hon. Gentlemen from taking any notice
of it that night, and professional avocations dur-
ing the morning of the rieil day. That a longer
space of time than a few hours was necessary to
deliberate on the import of the altered clauses,
was evident from this circumstance—that the
Right Hon. Gentlemaillihnself had allowed more
than a week to the House for the consideration
of the first edition of the Bill. It was now to
undergo various alterations ; and from what had
fallen from the. Right Hon. and Learned Gent.,
he was convinced that the alterations were of
considerable importance.—(Hear !)—To call
upon the House to agree to those alterations on
Wednesday next, was pressing too much, not
only on the convenience of the House, but on the
just discussion to which they ought to be sub-
mitted.—(Loud cries of « No, no !"-and " Hear,
hear !")—He thought that a postponement of the
discussion till Monday or Wednesday week was
necessary for, a full consideration of the merits of
the Bill.—(Hear!)
Sir JOHN NEWPORT begged to remind the Rt.
Hon. Gentleman who had spoken laSt, that the
alterations which his Rt. Hon. Friend wished to
introduce into the Bill were only alterations of
detail, arising from suggestions which had fallen
from Hon. Members in the course of the previous
debates.--(Bear !)—Why- might not the pro-
priety of those alterations be discussed after they
had been in the hands of Members six hoursl—
House was bound to take care,
not only that due deliberation should be exer-
cised on this question, but also that no unneces-
sary agitation should be created during its dis-
cussion on either side of the Channel.—(Hear I)
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE was well aware that great
agitation had already been created in the coun-
try by the introductions of this measure, and was
quite sure that- it would be still greater, if it
were suffered to proceed.—(Hear, and laughter.)
—On that ground alone, be thought that the fur-
ther consideration of the Bill ought to be post-
poned for a few days. It was an act of courtesy
in himself, and those Honourable Gentlemen who
acted with him, not to oppose the Speaker's
leaving the chair on the present occasion; and
the least that the Right Honourable and Learned
Gentleman could do in return for it, was to
oblige them by delaying the recommittal of the
D:11 'ill Monday 1.14.. t• The alterations, come
from what quarter they might, must-be of Im-
portance, otherwise, he was certain. they would
not have been made.--(hear !)—There was a
feeling in the country that rendered it imperative
upon the House to approach this measure with
calmness and .deliberation ; and the small ma-
jority in favour of the second reading of the Bill
made it incumbent on the Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman not to proceed too rapidly
in his course. The Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman had no reason to congratu-
late himself upon that majority; when there
were 254 Members on one side, and 243 on the
other, it showed. very clearly how divided the
House was. in its sentiments of the expediency of
the measure in question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested
the propriety of mutual accommodation. Though
he did not himself wish for a long -delay, he
thought that Wednesday was too early a day for
the recommitting of the Bill. lie should, there-
fore, submit to the candour of the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, that he ought to ap-
point some day for the recommittal of it, on which
Hon. Members could come better prepared to
discuss it than they possibly could be on Wed-
nesday_ He should suggest as a fit day Mon-
day next.—(Loud cries of " No, no ; -Friday,
Friday.")
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON reminded the House that
his Right Hon. and Learned Friend could, if he
thought fit, go into the Committee, and make that
night the alterations whi'cli he 'proposed, inas-
much as they were only alterations in detail.
The-Honourable Member for Somersetshire had
stated that this question had-created considerable
agitation in the country. In reply to that lion.
member,: he must take the liberty of stating, that
11l such agitation did exist, he did not know- where
it existed either in England or Ireland.—(Hear !)
—lf any Member' wished to create such agita-
tion (and he by no means intended to accuse the
Honourable Member for Somersetshire of a wish
to create it), he was ill' consulting. the duty
which he owed to the House arid to the Country.
—(Cheers.)
Mr. PEEL trusted that the conduct of the op-
ponents of the. Bill on this occasion would con-
vince the country that they had no desire to com-
bat the Bill with any other weapons than those of
argument and reason.--(Hear.)—He disclaimed all
intention of availing himself of public agitation
on this question ; he would neither propose nor
support any motion for delay, in order to create
it.—(Cheers.)—Holding those opinions he must
still say—and, he trusted that the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman would give him credit
for sincerity, though he was opposed to him in
opinion—that he thought that the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman -would best promote his
own object by consenting to the delay which was
now requested. The- Right Hon. and Learned,
Gentleman had stated that the alterations which
he was going to make were merely alterations in
detail: but he. (Mr. Peel) wished to remind the
House, that these alterations in detail were alter-
ations of the oath of supremacy, which had now
existed for 300 years.—(Hear, hear!)—These al-
terations? too, had not been communicated to the

. .
Housethe present evening. Now, the. ne-
cessary consequence of permitting this oath to
be
.administered would be to admit the existence
aof spiritual dependence of the Catholic upon
the Popes unconnected, .hoWever, with any de-
pendenCe on his civil authority. Was it not an
important point to determine how far the supre,
macY of the Pope in matters of ecclesiastical su-
. premacy was to be legally admitted by an act
of Parliament ?—(Hear!)—ln his opinion -it was
a point of the very greatest irnportance—(Hear,
hear !)—and he, therefore, thought that it was
rather too much to call upon Hon. Members to
aflirni in the evening; propositions which had
only been placed in their hands for the first time
in the morning of that day.—(Hear, hears hear !)
—At present he had.only one word to any upon
the Bill itself-=and that was, that it carried into
effect all the provisions of the Bill of 1813, but did
away with all the securities provided in it. The
alterations made in the Bill on Friday last, and
those Which were now proposed by the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, showed what vast
importance belonged to the discussion of these
details. Time, therefore, ought to be granted ;
and all that he and his Honourable Friends wish-
ed to obtain was, fair time for the discussion.—
He trusted that the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman would grant to them such time, as it
must promote the object Which he professed. to
have in view, if he could show that he had car-
ried his measure, .supposing that he should here-
after'carry it, not by delusion or by hurry, but
by a calm and deliberate discussion of its real
merits.--(Cheers.)--In conclusion, Mr. Peel said
that he differed from his Right Hon. Friend (Sir
John Nicholl). He did not wish the discussion;
of this measure to stand over till the next Ses-
sion of Parliament; he. only wanted it to stand
over till four days after the printing of the Bill
—(Hear, hear !)—and he trusted that the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not think
it too great a courtesy to extend to him that fa-
vour.—(Loud cheering from both sides of the
House).

Dr. Pnummoar said that if any agitation ex-
sted in the country upon this question, it was
.e duty of the House, as far as it could, to allay
hat agitation.—(Hear I)—The question ought
o meet with a free discussion in Parliament, and
lot to be influenced by any feeling that might
exist out of it.---(Hear, hear!)—The point to be
now decided was, whether they were to put the
Catholic on the same footing with the Protestant
Dissenter, or whether they were not, The means
originally proposed to place him in that situation
was by a repeal of the declaration against tran-
substantiation, and by annexing an explanation to
the, Oath of Supremacy. The only alteration
which it was now wanted to make in that
proposition was to incorporate the explanation
with the Oath, instead of annexing it to it. Was
there any thing in that alteration which the
house had not previously discussed.---(Hear,
hear, heart)—The Right Hon. Gentleman had
stated that the Bill had been entirely altered ;
but this was not true;—the short Bill had been
altered : but the long Bill, which had now been a
fortnight before the House, had not been at all
changed.-,-(Hear l)--IIe thought that the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would be fully
justified, if he thought fit, in going into a Com-
mittee that evening ; and that he would he wrong,
if he postpoueilit for any length of time. He trusted
that at any rate he would not postpone it beyond
Thursday or Friday.—(Loud cries of " Thurs-
day, fix it for Thursday," from several parts of
the House.)
Mr. PEEL, if he bad understood correctly what
had fallen from the Learned Gentleman who
had spoken last, he had said that the object of
this Bill was only to place the Roman Catholic
on the same footing with the Protestant Dissen-
ter. Now that could be done by withholding
the Annual Indemnity Acts. But he (Mr.
Peel) understood the object of the Bill to be this,
viz. to place the Catholic on the same footing
with the Protestant of the Church of England.—
(If ear, bear !)
Mr. WETHERELL was understood to say that
he would support the postponement of the Com-
mittee to any day later than Wednesday.
Sir G. HlLLasked for delay till Monday next.
Mr. TIERNEY understood the proposed change
only to be, that instead of an oath and a clause,
an entire oath was to he inserted. The recom-
mittal was an act of candour—Of excessive can-
dour ; and he much wished that his Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Plunkett) would not, at all events,
postpone that stage beyond Thursday.—(Hear
The debate would probably occupy two days ;
and if the recommitment were on Friday, it would
necessarily carry the subject over until Monday.
He gave full credit to the declaration made on
the other side, that the object was not to gain
time to disturb the public mind ; but, notwith-
standing its presentstate of tranquillity (produc-
ed, no doubt, by a perfect understanding,of the
subject), others might be found who would be
anxious to excite the popular feeling by every
means iu their power. Without great efforts
they would most unquestionably fail. If it were
necessary to take the opinion of the country on
the subject, it would be different;,' but here the
great leader of the opposition. to the measure ad-
mitted that it was a topic for the House, antrnot
for the great body of people out of doors. lie
(Mr. Tierney) would be one of the last persons
to resist delay, if in so doing there appeared any
want of candour, or any wish to take by surprise;
but the result of it could only be to agitate the
public mind, while the Billj,with the amendment,
could be reprinted to-morrow,and Members would
have all Wednesday to take it into considera-
tion : that amendment was nothing more than
shifting the position of particular words. The
general feeling seemed to be, that if the conces-
sion were fit to be made, it ought to be made
without delay ; and whether it ought or ought
riot to be made, might be soon settled by a single
vote of " ay" or 44 no," without that discussion
among the people that might impede, but could
not aid, the deliberations of Parliament.
Lord CASTLEREAGH quite concurred in the
statement just made, that tbiel'e was nothing in
the amendment which ought to prevent the de-
bate of the subject even on l'Vednesday.—(Hear,
hear!)—At the same time his feeling, and that,