The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-04 00:00:00

votes of 9,0001. had no ground for pretending their re-
ligious scruples as an objection to an increase of 17,0001.
The religious objection was as great to 9,0001. as
26,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought it
was almost impossible to discuss in that House
the religious feeling which the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site had said prevailed against the encouragement of the
Roman Catholic religion as a system of idolatry. If
the persons who entertained that feeling came forward
to show that their own religious feelings would be in-
terfered with, these statements might have some weight.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liver-
pool had truly said, that the great mijority of the people
of Ireland adhered to the faith of the most ancient
branch of the Christian Church, and that no other
spiritual teachers but the priests of that branch could
supply religious instruction to that people.—
(Hear, hear.) He concurred with the Noble Lord
and he believed that the improved instruction of the
Roman Catholic priests would enable them to make the
people as it had made them—better than they would
otherwise have been.—(Hear.) He would not deny that
he should prefer that the majority of the people of Ire-
land had adopted the principles of the Reformation.
But he must take them as they were. They had not
changed their faith, when the people of England did so.
—(Hear.) They had preferred to sacrifice the property
of their Church, and the property of its adherents—
(Hear)—and, therefore, he agreed with the Noble Lord
opposite, that the proposed measure was one of
restitution, not of gratuity. He thought that the Right
Hon. Baronet had shown in his speech good grounds
for the increase ; and he was glad to infer from that
speech that further concession was intended. He would,
therefore, give his vote cordially for the proposition of
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not now go into
a discussion of the proposition given notice of by his
Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. But he would
say, that in the course of this discussion, strong and in-
controvertible arguments had been alduced in favour of
an endowment fur the Catholic clergy in Ireland.—
(Hear.) He would not then go into a discussion of the
voluntary system; but he could not allow the debate to
pass without saying that he thought the spiritual in-
structors of the Irish people ought to be paid by the
State.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish every one to be
misled by what he stated. But he thought that there
was nothing in the nature of the Government proposi-
tion of that night, which could afford a reason
for opposing it to those who for twenty
years had supported the grant of 9,0001. ;
He concurred with the petitions which had been pre-
sented against the grant in thinking it was a step towards
a further and more comprehensive measure ; but upon
that very ground he supported tha proposition of the
Government. He could not altogether refrain from re-
ferring to the opposition which had been given in past
years to measures favourable to the rights and calculated
to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. He
deeply regretted that there was not even now existing
that harmony, that good feeling, that concord between the
people of England and the people of Ireland, which they
all ought to desire. He regretted to see that when a
popular leader entered a town in Ireland to propose a
repeal of the union, whieh in the opinion of the majority
of that House would be followed, at no distant period,
by a separation of the two countries, he was attended by
30,000 or 40,000 people, and that loud acclamations fol-
lowed at his heels. In the last twenty years there had
been too much disposition in this country to inveigh
against the religion which the people of Ireland pro-
fessed and to upbraid them in coarse and contumelious
terms. He did not think that men who came forward in
1825 and said they would never get up an agitation for the
repeal of the Union, or seek a separation between the
two countries, if the Catholic Emancipation Act were
carried, would have failed to keep their word, if they had
not had good cause for breaking it. These men would
have stood to their engagements had all gone on right,
and there would have no more been inquiry now into
the cause of agitation in Ireland, than they would have
been talking about agitation in Yorkshire or Middlesex.
But he trusted the Government of the present day were
about to abandon all former political conflicts,
and about to enter upon a wiser and a more
generous policy, which should hereafter lead to
the benefit of the people of Ireland, and lead to a better
feeling between the people of the two countries. Many
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland were as distinguished
for worth and humanity, as they were for talents and
learning. No other part of the Christian Church pro-
duced men so famous for their piety, and so distin-
guished for their excellence of character. He said he
hoped the people of Ireland would hereafter feel and
unite with the people of England. They should feel
that they were ready to do them justice—that they
were not led by any narrow projects—that they were
not led—he trusted the Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last would not think that he meant to be personal—by
a spirit of religious bigotry, to refuse that which
was justice to them, and justice to their suffering
country. He trusted they would look to this measure
not as a final measure, but as one of a series of measures
by which the British Parliament hoped to unite the two
countries in enduring bonds.—(The Noble Lord resumed
his seat, amidst loud cheers.)
Colonel Sibthorp and Mr. Stewart Wortley rose
together, to address the House, There were loud cries
for Colonel Sibthorp; but the Hon. and Gallant Member
gave way.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to take an early op •
portunity of addressing the House, and explaining the
reasons which induced him to feel that it was his duty
to support the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Although he could not admit that there was any literal
contract for continuing or increasing this grant, he had
a strong impression that there was a moral engagement
upon this subject which persuaded him this institution
was deserving the support of Parliament. They were
answered first of all by the Hon. Member for Kent,
that on conscientious grounds they should not make
the grant; but though he (Mr. S. Wortley) felt the
deepest, and professed the strongest, attachment to the
Church to which he belonged, yet he did not believe it
inconsistent with that attachment to concur in the pro-
posal made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Ho-
nourable Member for Oxford used an argument
which amounted to this—that, as far as the
State is concerned, it should rather see the
people of Ireland infidels or atheists, or left to their
own choice in religious matters, than see them Roman
Catholics. It was their business, however, to recognise
the responsibilities that were imposed upon them by the
State. He himself felt that responsibility sufficiently
strong to compel him to support the proposals of the
Right Hon. Baronet.
Colonel SIBTHORP here rose to address the House,
but, in consequence :of loud cries of " Sit down," and
" Divide," was obliged to resume his seat.
Mr. C. BRUCE, who was frequently interrupted by
cries of " Divide," said he hoped they would not think
it unreasonable in him to address the House at so late an
hour, but as he had been so fortunate as to catch the
Speaker's eye, he could not omit saying that he found
with great regret that this motion was ought forward
and supported by those who, on former occasions, op-
posed the further increase of the grant. They were now
bringing forward a motion which would be con-
sidered by many of their supporters, both in
side and outside of that House, as a heavy
blow to Protestantism in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It
was with deep regret that he found himself compelled to
come to a conclusion which would cause him to vote in
opposition to the Government on this occasion. It ap-
peared to him that the Ministers of the Crown were not
acting in accordance with those principles which should
with their s position.--(Loud
Protestantism,
regulate their conduct as Ministers. lie could not regard
the measure, as it was brought forward, as in accordance
po
of i
(L ou d cries
and he could not see
of " Divide, divide.")
was Crown was still a Protestant Crown, it as held on
the condition
how it was consistent for Ministers of that Crown to pro-
pose a measure having for its object the endowment of a
priesthood who would ever feel hostility to the Protestant
religion, and who would, so long as they were
sincere, and he believed them to be sincere, seek
not only to discourage but to subvert Protestantism.
He was also compelled to say be could not think that
the Right Hon. Baronet was at all justified in adopting
this course, because he took an active part in a measure
of a nature somewhat similar some tune ago, he meant
the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Loud cries of " Divide,
divide," and " Question," from all parts of the House.)
In that latter' measure he (Mr. C. Bruce) took an active
part, though .not then in Parliament, be wee he
was e al-
ways in favour of toleration.—(Renewed cries of
" Divide.") But he did not think that the concessions
in the Catholic Relief Bill at all called upon the House
for such a measure as that at present proposed.—(Cries
of " Question, question.") Therefore he would say that
this proposition involved a violation of prineiple which
aAt this late hour of the night
ss on the time of the House.
should u
would
übl
de guardednot
further against.tres p
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But he would say he
would gladly support any measure involving a system of
general education for the whole population.
Colonel SIBTHORP would not occupy the House for
more than two or three minutes. He hoped that in future
the Speaker's eye than he bad been that evening. He had
stages of the Bill he might be more fortunate in catching
invariably opposed the grant to the College of Maynooth,
with no unchristian feeling towards that College, but from
self an unworthy member.--(Laughter.) Meow had been
a sense of duty to that religion of which he owned
said about about the restitution of property, but how
would the Noble Lord opposite like his family
s of this country ?—(Laughter.)
belonged to the Catholic
to give up the Bedford property, which originally
He would not have been surprised if this measure had
been brought forward by the Noble Lord opposite, but
he was disgusted at its having been proposed by a Pro-
testant Minister. One educated at Oxford, too—some
time the Member for Oxford, but he thanked Oxford that
he was no longer so.—(Laughter.) To this measure of
the Government he (Col. Sibthorp) should give in every
stage his unqualified opposition. lle would not at that
hour of the night discuss the measure, but he would re-
serve himself for a future occesion. Upon every stage
of it he would oppose this detestable measure—detestable
in every light and in every shape.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHELL rose amidst loud cries of " divide, divide,"
and " adjourn, adjourn." He said that only one Irish-
man had addressed the House during the present dis-
cussion, and he thought he had a kind of title.—(Hear,
was the pleasure
hear, and cries of "go on, " adjourn.") He felt at
that hour of the night that it was too late to go on.—
and `•
buta d j oi
if
`adjourn.")
.R He found it
of the House, though he was in a state of health
which made it difficult for him to go on, he would pro-
eciffi No,
n to o,
go" ‘
o‘ ngo at othn't:'t hour,
pro-
ceed.—(" Go on," " go on," and "adjourn," adjourn.")
He certainly would yield to the injunctions of the majo-
rity,land would " go on."—(Cheers.) And when he said
ho would go on, the House would remember that it was
his fatality to be compelled to " go on " at such an hour.
He gave his entire—his unqualified approbation to the
measure proposed by the Right lion. Gentleman,
and he thought that measure was, if possible,
enhanced in value by the spirit with which it was pro-
pounded.—(Loud cheers.) He had no doubt that one
object was uppermost with the Right Hon. Gentleman.
—(Hear, hear.) As in the Dissenters' Bill he had but