The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY IVIORNING, MAY 9, 1845.

The Caledonian line was greatly to be preferred to the Dumfries
line, as it afforded the most direct communication to Liverpool.
This witness underwent a severe cross-examination by Sir F.

Group F.

IRELAND.
REPEAL AL OCIATICM

LONDON, WORCESTER, AND SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE

RAILWAY.

Phillips, but the main points of his evidence remained unshaken.
Mr. Hoes next called Mr. Croall, the large mail contractor, and
examined him generally as to the coach traffic along the proposed
Caledonian line. He considered there would not be sufficient
traffic from north to squth to support two direct or competing rail.
ways, He should give the preference to the Caledonian line. as it
was shorter, and generally speaking was more advantageous than
any other that could be laid out.
Mr. Piper corroborated the evidence of the last witness in every
particular.
Mr. Hoye then called Mr. Stewart, of Hillside, near Lockerby.
He said he had the management of very extensive estates in the
counties of Dumfries and Lanark, the annual revenue from
which averaged from 35,0001. to 50,0001. The construction
of the proposed railway would be of immense advantage to the
agricultural districts through which it passed, as it would facilitate
the introduction of artificial manure. Lime, for instance, would
be brought much quicker and at greatly reduced pr,ces. The
benefit to be derived from the Caledonian line would extend to
nearly the whole of Dusnfries,liiret In this district there was
upwards of 150,000 acres of arable land, and the diminution in
the expense of lime to the farmer for its cultivation would
be at least one-third—that is, lime, that at present costs 15s. per
ton, In the event of the railway being made, would be purchased
for 10s. Grass land was very advantageously benefited by the
application of thick coats of lime, and the value of land generally
would be increased. There were two places from whence the lime
used in agricultural purposes was principally derived. One source
was from a place seventeen miles to the north of Carlisle, and
a second source was from Kilwarden, in Lanarkshire, both of which
places were very conveniently situated for the transmission of their
produce by the Caledonian line. Arable land in the districts of
Dumfriesshire will let for from 151. to 255. per imperial acre, but
the better kind, with an alluvial soil, will realise 30s. the acre.
Potatoes of a very fine quality were produced in Dumfriesshire
and Lanarkshire, as the soil in these parts was particularly well
adapted to their cultivation. The principal markets for
potatoes were chiefly confined to internal districts, but
large quantities were annually exported to Liverpool and ►he
west of England, bat the sale in these parts was very uncertain
and irregular. Potatoes were frequently given to pigs for want of
a profitable market. The price of these articles of produce
averages from 20s. to 225. per ton on the spot where they are
grown, but at Edinburgh the usual price is from 40s. to 455. per
ton, owing to the expense of conveyance. If taken by
railway their cost would be diminished nearly one-half.
Dumfriesshire supplied a district consisting of 800,000 inhabitants
with potatoes, and averaging the supply to each individual at five
cwt., a total consumption of '200,000 tons annually would be the
result.

The Right Hon. R. Shaw, Chairman.

On the re asseinbling of the Committee to-day at twelve o'clock,
.he examination of the witnesses was proceeded With.

Mr. Sparrow, an extensive toil Proprietor of Wolverhampton,
was examined, and ts;rroborated the evidence given by Mr. Wil-
liams the pnvious day. He considered the broad gauge was not
adapted to meet the wants of the district, but thought the narrow
gauge well suited for the purpose.
This witness was subjected to a lengthened cross-examination
by Mr. WHATELEY, in which he admitted that considerable sink-
ings had taken place in the district, but he did not think they
would interfere with the formation of a railway, as their own tram.
roads were constructed ever these sinkings without interfering
with their working. The sinkings were generally gradual.
To Mr. Witrrmoag—He considered that a better line of rail.
way might be formed than either of the proposed lines, especially
as a route to London. One along the Birmingham and Wo!ver.
hampton canal wonld be best for this purpose.
To Mr. ALLEN—The Grand Junction was not suited to the wants
of the district, from.the charges on that line, and it being difficult to
get at. If tram roads were constructed from the Grand Junction into
the various parts of the district, and the tolls reduced, the accom-
modation might be sufficient for the London and Liverpool trade,
but not for the Bristol.

To Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE—He had not sufficiently compared
the two lines proposed upon the broad and narrow gauges, to give
an opinion an their respective merits.
Mr. William Barrows of Dudley, was next called. He had
examined the two lines, and was decidedly in favour of the one
with the narrow gauge. As far as the valley of the Stour was con.
cerned the London and Birmingham line was the most accommo-
dating of the two proposed. In his opinion outside parallel lines
for the carriage of waggons with materials would be a great accom-
modation. A quadruple line of this kind was much to be pre-
ferred over a line with the broad gauge laid down double, and a
narrow gauge in the centre for the accommodation of waggons,
To Mr. COCKIIURN—The Great Western line he thought the
straightest of the two between Dudley and Wolverhampton. It
also took in the greatest number of works. It came to his works
three-quarters of a mile nearer than the other. In the other parts
of the district, he considered the London and Birmingham line,
especially with certain branch lines proposed to be formed, decidedly
the best.

Mr. Edward Williams, miller and corn factor at Dudley, was
next examined. He was largely engaged in business. The agri-
cultural produce of the district was not one.tenth of the con.
gumption. The extra supplies were principally derived from
the districts of the south. The purchases were mostly made at
Birmingham. There were about eighty-four flour mills in opera-
tion within five miles of Dudley. About 150,000 quarters
a year were ground in these mills, brought from the sur-
rounding country, from a distance averaging about sixty
miles. This produce was at present carried by canal ; but if
a railway was formed, it would be principallybrought by that means.
His firm used about 300 quarters a week. In winter great incon-
venience arose from the freezing of the canal, which could not take
place with a railway.

Mr. Smith, factor, gave evidence generally corroborative of what
had been stated by the last witness. The average value of the
agricultural lands of the whole of Lancashire he estimated at
230,0001., and he had not made this calculation for the purposes
of the present inquiry, but for the income-tax. Coals could be
sent at at much less expense by railway than by any of the ex-
isting means of conveyance.
The CHAIRMAN interrupted the examination of this witness, and
stated that the Committee considered they had heard quite suffi-
cient evidence of a general nature as to the eligibility of the pro.
posed line, and were anxious now to come to the traffic tables.
After considerable discussion amongst the Committee, and
squabbling between counsel, the examination of Mr. Smith was
resumed, but nothing further of importance was elicited.
Mr. Davidson, farmer, M,d-Lothian, gave evidence as to the in.
troduction of agricultural produce into Lothian. He thought
there with at least 2,000 or 3,000 tons annually brought in from
Lanarkshire, and the amount would be trebled if a railway wero
made. Large quantities of oats, corn, beans, and other produce,
amounting to a total of nearly 17,000 quarters, were brought ori-
ginally from Edinburgh to Lanark, and thence conveyed by carts to
Mid-Lothian. The consumption of all these articles wou:d be greatly
increased if more facility for conveyance was afforded. The
remaining portion of this witness's evidence was merely a re.
petition of what had previously fallen from the other witnesses.
The Committee adjourned at half. past four till twelve tomorrow.

J. W. Copewell, overseer of roads, was examined at length re-
specting the traffic of the district, which ho showed, in fish, vege-
table produce, and cattle, to be very extensive.
Mr. Harris, of Stourport, was examined to the same effect,
without eliciting any further point of material importance.
Add:tional evidence was brought forward tending to show the
extensive nature of the traffic in agricultural produce, and the neces-
sity of a railway, especially such a ono as that proposed by the
London and Birmingham Company.
The Committee at four o'clock adjourned till twelve o'clock to-
morrow.

Group Q.
The Committee on this group met again this day at twelve
o'clock ; present Mr. Setheron (North Wilts), Chairman ; Mr. A.
Escott (Winchester), Sir Thomas Colebrooke (Taunton), Viscount

_
Duncan (Bath).
CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAILWAY (MOLD
BRANCH). _ .

As the cro s-examination of the witnesses for the promoters of
the Bill was about to commence, the room was cleared, and on
our re-admission,
The CHAIRMAN said that the Committee had come to the
following resolution That as the object of the Bill is to carry
Into effect an agreement said to have been entered into by the
Chester and Holyhead Company for the purchase of the Chester
and Birkenhead Railway, and further to enable the Holyhead
Company to make a branch to Mold, in the county of Flint, and as
it appears, from the statements of the counsel for the promoters of
the Bill, that the Birkenhead and Chester Company is not now an
assenting party to the proposal submitted to the Holyhead Com-
pany, the Committee have resolved not to receive any further evi.
dente in support of the preamble of the Bill."
Mr. ROBINSON, for the promoters, wished that the Committee
in their report to the House, would add that " though they de-
clined to hear further evidence, on the ground stated, they would,
at the same time, express their belief that they thought sufficient
evidence had been adduced to prove the existence of the agree-
ment.•

Group G and 0 2.
THE SOUTHAMPTON AND DORCHESTER RAILWAY.
The consideration of this railway was resumed this morning be_
fore the Committee, when Mr. Gardner, of the firm of Pemberton
and Co., stated that the differences with the Woods and Forests,
for the decision of which it will be recollected the discussion was
adjourned yesterday, were adjusted. After this, without clearing
the room, the Committee of the Bill declared the preamble of
the Bill to be proved.

In entering on the consideration of the clauses, Captain Moor.
som was recalled, and stated that there were fourteen turnpike.
roads to be crossed, eleven of them by bridges, and three on the

To an observation of Mr. H. R. YoRKE, Captain Moorsocn

stated that it was necessary to make the crossing near
Wareham on the level, as if it were to be elevated or depressed, the

station must be removed to a considerable distance from Wareham,
which would be a great inconvenience to the town. It appeared,
however, that this principle was not to be universally observed;
as for instance, in crossing the turnpike near Ringwood,
which the railway did three times, they would have to cross the

•
Mr. CALVERT, counsel for the Chester and Birkenhead Company,
dissented from this. He contended that the charges nude against
his clients were utterly untrue—that there really was no agreement,
and if the Committee would permit him, he would show them,
by evidence already adduced, as well as the additional evidence he
would offer, that the other side were entirely in error.
Mr. ESCOTT (one of the Committ( e) here intimated that he felt
it his duty to state that he dissented entirely from the resolution
just read, ani was proceeding to state the grounds of his dissent,
when

river, and if this were to be done at the Lvel, the land might be
inundated, so the Company proposed to elevate the railway to ob-

viate this inconvenience.

The railway on approaching the town

of Southampton passed over a quantity of lammas land, then
through a tunnel of 1130 yards in length, and then with a facing on

to other lammas land ; but the Company were ready to make any

reasonable concession to the Corporation of Southampton.
The clauses proposed by the Woods and Forests, to secure the
ights of the Crown, were then proposed and agreed to, as also three

Mr. PUSEY rose to order, and said that they could not enter into
the subject before the meeting.
The room was again cleared to consider Mr. Robinson's proposi.
tion, and on our re-admission,
The CII.IIRMAN announced that the Committee had come to
the resoluting of declining to accede to the proposition,
and for the same reason that they would not hear the evidence pro.
posed to be adduced by Mr. Calvert in support of the moral cha.
racter of his clients, which they considered was not at all affected
by the insinuations thrown out by counsel on the other side.
The Committee having passed the preamble of this Bill on
Monday last, and the clauses as far as No. 8, on Tuesday, pro.
ceeded to consider the remaining clauses. With the exception of
a few which were left over for future consideration, the other
clauses of the Bill having reference chiefly to matters of detail and
of no public interest, were agreed to.
SHREWSBURY. OSWESTRY, AND CHESTER JUNCTION

thers, required by the Board of Trade.
Mr, MERREWETUER then proposed, on behalf of the South-

amptou Improvement Commissioners, a clause to the ef-
fect that the tunnel under the town of Southampton should be a

continuous tunnel, with a double line of rails. This clause
was necessary ; and that the length of the tunnel should he
640 yards, instead of 528. yards, as proposed by
the Company. That this railway aleo should he without any

shaft for ♦entilation, or other impediment to the enjoyment of the
ground. This was necessary en account of the line passing through
the ground which was appropriated for public recreation ; and if
the tunnel was only to be of the length proposed by the Company,
it would come out just in front of a handsome row of houses, called
Portland-place; and the ground appropriated for public recreation
would be severed by a cutting ; while if the tunnel were to be of
the length proposed by the corporation, this inconvenience would
be avoided, and the tunnel would come out at Exmouth-street,
and be no impediment to the public advantage.
Mr. HATIIERTON, who appeared for the Southampton Improve.
ment Commissioners, stated that the body for whom he appeared
coincided in opinion with the corporation of the town, on whose
behalf Mr. Merryweather had taken the objection we have just

DililLt!f, Mit 6.—The weekly meeting of the Association was
held, this day in the Conciliation Hall. M. J. Barry, Esq., bar-
rister, in the chair.
' . .

.Mr. O'CONNELL said he wished to settle a little account with Sir
J. Graham.—(Laughter.) He (Sir J. Graham) condescended on
one occasion to call him a " convicted conspirator," but he had
freely forgiven him, and he should never retract that forgiveness,
or hear one word of reproach on the subject, but he wanted to set
him right on a matter of law and fact. The newspapers repre-
sented him as having said that the conviction of the conspirators
was quashed merely on technic..l points. Now there never was a
greater mistake or misrepresentation made by human being. He
dared say his legal advisers might have told him so. Although it
was a dry question of law, he (Mr. O'Connell) had no doubt but he
would be able to prove that the judgment was set aside on the
merits. After some further remarks on the subject he handed in
57i. I Os. from Dundalk, and a sum of money from Wexford.
Mr. SMITE! O'BRIeN said the task:devolved upon him of reading
to the meeting the resignation of Mr. Grey Porter. He regretted
to be obliged to say that he considered that that gentleman used too
much precipitation in joining the Association, and also that he was
too precipitate in withdrawing from it.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
O'Brien) felt confident that notwithstanding the secession of Mr.
Porter, that gentleman would at all times be found working in
the cause of his country. The Hon. Gentleman then read the
bilowing letter

" Shelbourne Hotel, May 3, 1845.

" Sir,—Yesterday evening I read the speeches at the Dundalk
dinner, and as it seems to me that the Association is now
thoroughly pledged by its leaders to the establishment of a Par.
liament in Dublin (no matter how well and how justly our inter-
national and our internal grievances are redressed by the Imperial
Parliament), and as I feel that I have no right any further to
put forward my awn views, I beg leave to retire from the Asso-
ciation. . _

" If the repeal Members would make a trial in Parliament to get
a fair union (and thousands and thousands of Irishmen, now
hostile or neutral, would assist them in the trial, and it could
be done within a month), and should fail in the attempt, I
_ .

would bo as warm an advocate of a Parliament in Dublin as
yourself, and you would then carry with you the public opinion of
the country. But without the previous failure of such an attempt,
1. e., witklut some visible proof of the necessity of an Irish
Parliament, I am quite sure that you cannot even try to esta-
blish a Parliament in Dublin without a violent civil war and so-
cial revolution.
" I especially regret that the Association will not at this most
favourable time use. its great influence to get a better Act of Union,
as 1 think that in that case her Majesty might visit Ireland this
summer, and that those questions which have so long disturbed the
country might be brolight to a fair and honourable settlement, and
a great career of prospeyity open to Ireland.
" I also quite deny that under an Irish Parliament, and with
separate independence (and the terms are, in fact, one and the
same), the people of Ireland xre likely to be better off, or to enjoy
mere liberty or more happineo of any kind, than under a good
union with Great Britain, and uritler one supreme legislative Parlia-
ment in London, over this immenso empire.
" I shall be much obliged to you'sif you will next Monday thank
the members of the Association for thee kindness with which which
they listened to me. I did my best to. put my views forward. and
I firmly believe that after a time they' will be found to be quite
right.

41 With sincere hopes that you will hire no reason to regret
your present policy, I am, dear Sir, with great respect, yours truly,
" W. S. O'Brien, Esq." (.1. V. PORTER.
Mr. O'Consinu. moved that. the letter of Mr. Grey Porter be in-
serted on the minutes, and that the thanks of thr Association be
tendered to him for the spirit and manliness of his corni'uct.—(Eltar,
hear.) He (Mr. Porter) differed with them, as he had a perfect
right to do. He had made an experiment, and although ar'ached
to his own opinions, he nevertheless respected theirs.—(Hear,
hear). Surely Mr. Porter must have forgotten that he hit 4
established a precursor society; and if they had succeeded in'
obtaining the object which they aimed at, namely, perfect equality
with England, they would never have sought for a repeal of the
union. On the part of the Catholics, he denied that they ever
contemplated an ascendancy—they despised ascendancy—and, for
his own part, he would declare that there was not a man in the
north of Ireland who had a greater antipathy to a Catholic as.
cendancy than he had.—(Cheers). In conclusion Mr. O'Connell
declared that he was a repealer, that he would live a repealer, and
if he did not see the Parliament in College-green he would die a
repealer. --(Cheers.)
Mr. J. Milinvim (barrister), rejoiced at the secession of Mr.
Grey Porter, as it proved incontestibly the sincerity of the repeaters.
Mr. O'CONNELL again rose, and congratulated the Association
on the late demonstration in the north in favour of legislative in.
dependence. He never, in the course of his experience, beheld a
more numerous, orderly, or peaceable assemblage. When entering
the town of Dundalk they met Lord Cardigan, the colonel of a
regiment of Dragoons, driving out in his carriage, which clearly
showed him that he did not consider there would be any
occasion for his troops. He was perfectly right.—(Hear.)
It was too late in the present session to bring the question of repeal
before the Legislature. They would wait till they were able to
concentrate such a manifestation of popular opinion as would
give greater weight to their arguments. Lord Althorp had de-
clared that the moment the entire people of Ireland demanded a
repeal of the Act of Union they were entitled to it. That was a
sound and constitutional declaration, and stood in bold relief to the
rapourings of the Member for Edinburgh.—(Hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman then entered into a long argument in favour of repeal,

referring again to the condition of the people, and concluded by
asserting they would therefore continue the agitation in the acne
Jegal and,constittational manner which had at all times charac-
terised their exertions. During the present month they would
have a demonstration in Cork, and another in Meath, besides the
celebration of the 30th of May, in Dublin.—(Cheers.) Against
the commencement of the next session of Parliament they would
have petitions from every county, every town, every village, and
every family in Ireland, in favour of domestic legislation. He was
dete-mined that the British Minister should have ocular demon.
stration of the feelings ancl wishes of the Irish people.—(Hear, and
cheers.) Sir R. Peel seemed disposed to win the people of Ireland
front him. He would freely give them to him, but he knew the
terms.—;Laughter.) The Minister deserved their gratitude for
abolishing the duty on glass, and the monopoly of the Bank of
Ireland, and also for his excellent Maynooth Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
He was grateful for their measures, and he understood they were
to be succeeded by others of an equally liberal character. He
trusted he was not misinformed, but he could net be grateful by
anticipation; he would thank him for them when he saw them. Let
Ireland be conciliated, and England might defy the conjugated
powers of the world.—(Cheers )
Some routine business having been disposed of, Mr. O'CONNELL
announced the rent for the week to be 4061. 31.
The meeting then adjourned.