The Sun.
London, England, 1828-04-19 00:00:00

NEW SOUTH WALES.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH presented a petition from the
Gentry, Merchants, Landowners, and others of the Colony
of New South Wales, agreed to at a public meeting con-
vened by the Sheriff, with the permission of the Governor
of the Colony, praying for popular representation and trial
by Jury in that Colony. As the subject was likely
to come under the consideration of the House, upon the
Bill introduced by the Right Hon. Secretary of State for
the Colonies, he should not occupy the time of the House
in making any preliminary remarks, but should content
himself with stating that according to the most credible in-
formation that the population of the two Australian Colonicts
amounted from 55,000 to 60,000 inhabitants, of w
from 35,000 to 40,000 were free settlers. The amn
revenue exceeded 60,0001. ; the annual produce of the,
land and labour 800,0001. Having made that state-
ment he would merely state that there was no instance in
the history of English Colonies where so great a majority
consisted of natural free-horn British subjects, were those
two privileges—Representation and Trial by Jury, the pe-
culiar, ancient, and immemorial birth-right ofEnglish-
men, were denied.
Mr. Secretary HUSK ISSON said, that he would not
then go into any discussion upon the fact, stated in the
petition, but he could assure his Right Hon. Friend that the
person who gave him his information respecting the popu-
lation of the Colony either possessed better means of infor-
mation than his Majesty's Government could resort to,
or that he was misled. According to the last returns in
that Colony the population was 49,000, and a fraction,
and of that number 18,000 were settlers, and the remainder,
the majority, were those sent to the colony as convicts. He
was anxious to do every thing which would speedily place
the inhabitants of those Colonies on the same footing as to
rights, with the inhabitants of this country. But he should
abstain till a future opportunity from stating the grounds
of his opinion, that the introduction of these measures into
that Colony at the present moment would tend to impede
rather than to advance civilization.

Mr. BRIGHT supposed that when the Hon. Gentle-
man stated the population of the Free Settlers to be 18,000
he meant those who originally went out as free settlers, and
to exclude those who had been sent out as convicts, and
after the expiration of their punishment had become free
settlers.

Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON—The 18,000 included
the original free settlers and the emancipated convicts.—
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then rose to present a
petition, which set forth a case of singular hardship and
injustice. It was from a Mr. Myles O'Reilly, of Dublin,
who complained of the loss of a considerable sum of money,
in consequence of certain transactions which had occurred
at Madras. The claim to which this petition related, had
been put into his hands several years ago, and hat then ad-
vised the petitioner, as he was in the habit of advising all
private parties, who were proceeding in any way against
public bodies, to adopt, in the first place, every conciliatory
measure, which might advance his claim, without the
necessity of making application to a Court of Law. On
the present occasion, he still entertained every confidence
in the liberality and justice of the East India Company;
and he earnestly hoped, that the Honourable Body would
see that the claim now made, if not in its nature legal was
yet beyond doubt a most powerful one upon their justice.
It seemed that a clause in an Act of Parliament, passed
in the 39th and 40th of George the Third, directed the
King's Courts in India, to grant letters of administration
to the registrars of those Courts of the goods and personal
effects of persons dying intestate within their several juris-
dictions. Col. O'Reilly, the brother of the petitioner, after
serving the East India Company with distinguished merit
and reputation, died in 1816, possessed of a small property,
in value—about 3,0001. sterling. That property, inasmuch
as he died intestate, should have come to the petitioner.
The Registrar of the Court at Madras took out letters of
administration to the whole of this personal estate, and
vested the proceeds in the Company's treasury at Madras.
Now hereit seemed impossibleto deny that the Company,
through their own treasury, became, in some sort, a gua-
rantee for the security of the funds so invested with them.
Soon after this Mr. Ricketts, the Registrar, whose affairs
had unfortunately become exceedingly embarrassed, went
to the treasury at Madras, and took out the larger part on
the whole of this investment. He subsequently died ; no
assets appeared to be available to his creditors, and this
sum of 3,0001. was lost.—(Hear, hear.) But it appeared
that the 3,0001. were paid by the treasury t) Mr. Ricketts,
the Registrar, without any order or authority of Court
whatever.—(Hear, hear.) Two Learned Friends of his
(Sir J. Mackintosh's) then sat as Judges on the Bench,
and they (Sir Thomas Strange and Sir Edward Stanley)
did state it to be their clear opinion that by this act of
their treasury the Honourable Company had been made
liable.—(Hear, hear.) If their treasurer had thus made
himself responsible as a trustee for the interests of par-
ties whose funds he held, and who were themselves
at such a vast distance, he was surely bound to
have exercised that ordinary vigilance which should
have restrained hint from paying out any money so
deposited without an express order of Court. Whe-
ther the Company was in strictness legally liable to
the petitioner or not might be a question very difficult of
determination. But at all events, in fairness, honesty, and
equity, the petitioner had a claim which he (Sir J. Mac-
kintosh) could scarcely allow himself to doubt, that the
known liberality and fairness of the Company in its deal-
ings would recognise and affirm. In the correspondence,
too, on this subject, the Company's Secretary, Mr. Dart,
had admitted to the petitioner the two important facts of
the investment of the money, and of its having been paid
out again to the Registrar without any order of Court.—
If the spirit and intention of the law bad been carried into
effect by advertising the death of this gentleman, and the
amount of his property, the greater part of it would have
been recovered. He hoped the mention of this case would
induce the Directors of the East India Company to act
with their usual liberality towards the relatives of Colonel
O'Reilly.
' •

Mr. DENNISON mentioned a similar instance of hard-
ship in the case of a friend of his own by the name of Sin-
clair. The circumstances of that case were now before the
India Board upon petition, and he hoped it would receivea
favourable attention.

Mr. WYNN said, this was a question of great moment
and magnitude, and affecting a great number of persons.
He knew that in the case of Mr. Ricketts, the most un-
pleasant consequences had resulted to many individuals
from tile amount of debts which he left behind him, which
was not less than 40,0001. He thought that some altera-
tion in the system as regarded the appointment of Regis-
trars would be beneficial. It would be advisable also,
that the accounts of a deceased Registrar should be made
up with greater expedition than under the present practice.
Mr. COURTENAY wished to state to the House,
with reference to the Board of Controul, to which he had
the honour to belong, that Mr. O'Reilly's case had never
been laid before that Board. It had, he believed, been
sent before the Directors of the East India Company, but
it had never found its way to the Board of Controul.
With regard to Mr. Sinclair, the case was different. The
circumstances of his case had been represented to the
Board of Controul, and would receive the fullest attention.
Mr. L. FOSTER hoped this appeal would not be with-
out effect.

slr. LINDSAY thought it must be obvious to the
House, after what had passed, that the Company could not
be held responsible for the loss complained 'of. Over the
King's Court in Madras the Company had no controul.
Mr. TRANT did not agree with the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, that the Company were so fully
exempt from responsibility in this case.
After a few words front Sir J. MACKINTOSH, the
petition was brought up; and, on the question that it be
read, after a few observations from Mr. C. W. Wynn,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that he should not have said a word upon the subject but
for the idea started, that the charge incurred upon this
subject should be defrayed by the Government, and, there-
fore, lest his silence whilst present might be construed
into acquiescence, he protested against any such idea. He
was decidedly adverse to its coming out of the funds of the
country ; but if the charge were substantiated, and that
remuneration were to be at all
.made, it should come out
of the territorial funds of thee East India Company.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH agreed in
that view.
The petition was then read and laid upon the table, and
after some discussion Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH gave
notice that he would move te have it referred to the con-
sideration of a Select Committee en Thursday next.
LOCAL JURISDICTIONS.
Mr. STANLEY,
presenting a petition, observed
that he had no wish to interfere with the Orders of the
Day, but begged to draw the attention.of the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite to a case which he considered of some
importance. The petition he held in his hand was signed
by 220 inhabitants of Clitheroe, who stated that the town
was a Corporation, and had a Court for the recovery of
small debts. Prisoners there, who wished to take -the
benefit of the Insolvent Act, were obliged to send to Pres-
ton, twenty miles off, for legal advice, and upon the hear-
ing of their petitions were compelled to go to Lancaster
Castle, 24 miles distant, at their own expense. They

also complained that debtors were intermixed with f? 1
and that although there were several Magistrates in
neighbourhood none of them ever visited the prison.
Hon. Gentleman concluded by calling the attention of
vernmeut to tha subject.—On moving that the petitiol
brought up,

. •
Mr. Secretary PEEL hoped the Hon. Gen
would move to have the petition printed, in order Wlt
a full inquiry into the subject. Ile had himself soweli
since brought in a Bill for the purpose of doing away!!
confinement in local jurisdictions, which he consi6,
would have been an improvement, as prisoners cal'
kept at leas expense in the county gaol than elsescl.
That was done in Essex, and all the local jurisdictions;
a certain rum to the county for the maintenance
custody of those imprisoned by them. It was true
where parties were imprisoned only for short periwig it
a convenience to them to be near home, so that the 51'1
of complaint was thus not altogether unaccompanied"
`benefits.

The petition was then read and ordered to be printo.
Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from a Socigt:
Preston against the Friendly Societies' Bill.

CORN.

Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS brought up a copy of);
.160,10's Report, and also Accounts of the average Pricf
British Corn and Grain.—Ordered to be printed. ')
COlonel DAVIES presented a petition from cede,Friends of Civil and Religious Liberty in the city of
rester, in favour of the Catholic Claims.
NEW SOUTH WALES.
Mr. Secretary lIUSKISSON mired the Order ot,e
Day for the second reading of the New South Wales P'
On the question that the Bill be read a second 606'
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that he did note
to oppose the Bill, but to make one or two observatio°
which he wished to draw the attention of the Secretati
the Colonies. He wished, agreeably to the course put;
by him in 1823, to propose the extension of Trial bY
in civil and criminal cases, and although he did not
far as the persons who had signed the petition presente'•
him in a desire for popular representation, vet he r")
wish that there should be a certain number dieted to
in the Legislative Council, certainly, however, with iltt;
fications higher than were requisite in many other C;
nies. Tie should, however, reserve himself until the •
tion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair to go into C';
mittee on the Bill, when he should move an inatructj°,,
the Committee to extend Trial by Jury in civil and et;
nil cases, and also that one-third of the Legislative C,
cil should be composed of members chosen by eit(q.
possessing real or personal estates to the amount of ',,
or 50/. per annum ; he was not particular which, t'ti
object was that the principle of popular represe°,,
should be begun to be introduced into the Goverol,,e
that colony. Lie would then ask of his Right Hon. r
how it occurred that the Trial by Jury seemed to 0,,
grade in the Colony, as it had been in force for fiv°:
at Quarter Sessions ; but that, as well as the proviii°'
insolvents, was omitted in the present Bill.
After a few words from Mr. N. CALVERT,
Mr. Secretary lIUSKISSON said, that as the R.
Hon. Baronet proposed to enter into discussion at 3
stage, he would abstain from going into the minutia! °
arrangements contemplated tin- some time longer.
principle which he wished to preserve in legislatioi,
the Colonies was, that of interfering as little as e,
with the Local Authorities. With respect to tri';
jury, it was true, that it was in force as to Quarter
sions, but having been found merely a dead letter, it
proposed to be abandoned.
Mr. BRIGHT agreed with the Right Hon. Cientlefr,.
in some of his views, but did not approve of.eifthßill
the perpetual controul of the Colony in the Crown, n'ti'
could he accede to the abolition of the superior Coit,
Judicature there, and the immediate reference of ape;
the Privy Council, which was a body, in his °pivot'
very well qualified for the exercise of judicial flinetiO,'
Mr. Secretary HITSKISSON said, that the ilonor,
Member seemed to contend that this Bill took from F,,r
v,
ment the right of interfering as respected this cols;
This he conceived erroneous. It was also objected tlittt
present measure took away the right of internal a?
On that be wished to say a few words. The Co"rbei
New South Wales were presided over by Judges
from amongst barristers of a certain standing, and aPIP°,,6',
r
by the Crown of Great Britain. The appeal here, w
o
lay to the Military Governor. This he confessed 115
to him rather an unseemly species of interference,
that would be advantageously dispensed with.

Mr. BRIGHT explained. tit
Mr. S. RICE observed that the present Bill op°
great question respecting the internal government °
colony—in considering which, it was impossible to
sight of the circumstance that the settlement which Orf
the object of the present Bill stood, Lint only in tbe
a colony, and a rising colony, but also in the situation
place of penal infliction, and he certainly thought if
material to distinguish between its situation in the
point of view and in the other.
After a few words from Colonel DAVIES, con6r'-
of what fell from the preceding speaker,
Mr. IV. NORTON denied that letters of the desor9
alluded to were received so frequently as had been 64":.'
On the contrary, be had seen letters to quite an epeeli,
„.
effect. Ever since the late changes in that colony, °104.16:
sire of the convicts to bring out their friends had alto
ott
abated. The Right Hon. Gentleman then adverted t
party disputes that had arisen, and attributed them ti),
circumstances of so many persons of education being $,
ported. He thought the sending out thither p.llo'
such a class, was extremely imprudent.

Colonel DAVIES explained.
Mr. MARRYOTT then made a few observations'
were totally inaudille.
The Bill was then read a second time, and order'
be committed this day se'nnight.

ELECTION TRIALS.
On the motion of Mr. C. W. W. WYNN, the r.
Gm Trial Cormilidation Bill was read a second tinie,
ordered to be committed on Monday next.