The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-04 00:00:00

MARINE INSURANCES.

Mr. HUME moved for a return of the aggregate
amount of the stamp receipts upon marite insurances
for the ten years ending 1843, with the rates in each
year, and the amount under each rate ; also, for a return
of the amount of the stamp duty received on bills of
lading during the same ears.—Ordered.
THE NAVY.

Sir C. NAPIER gave notice that on Thursday, the
IGth of May, he should bring the state of the Daly list
under the consideration of the House.
Mr. C. WOOD presented a petition from Halifax
against the ten hours clause; also a petition against the
County Courts Bill.
Mr. ELLICE, jun., wished to know from her Majesty's
Government when the report of the `..catch Poor-law
Commissioners would-be laid before the House ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said he should not be prepared to
answer the question before the early pin of next week.
Mr. FRENCH wished to ask the Right Hon: Baronet,
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whe-
ther it was the intention of .her Majesty's Government
to introduce a Bill for the extension of bail in error. It
was reported that a statement lo that effect had been
Made by the Lord Chancellor in the other Ilouse.
Sir J. GRAHAM was nat aware that any statement
of that kind had bean made. If the Honourable Gentle-
man would repeat the question on Monday, he would en-
deavour to. answer it. •
CRIMINAL LAW.

Mr. WATSON wished to ask of the Right Hon. Bart.
at the head of her Majesty's Government whether it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to intro-
duce any measure founded on the report of the Criminal
Law Commission ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. Gentleman hav-
ing some weeks ago given him private notice of his in •
tention to put this question, he had since directed his at-
tention to the subject. The Criminal-law Commissioners
suggested the repeal of obsolete statutes; as that involved
the consideration of various details, many of the statutes
passed in the reign of Elizabeth, and James the First,
having, it appeared, fallen into disuse, it was the inten-
tion of her Majesty's Government to direct the attention
of the law-advisers of the Crown to that subject.
BANK CHARTER.

Mr. F. BARING wished to know what course it was
proposed to follow on Monday with reference to the
Bank Charter. He wished to know if the First Lord
of the Treasury intended on Monday merely to make
a statement of his preposition without calling for the
decision of the House, or if it was intended at once
to ask ;Or the decision of the House on the propositions
which would be laid befere it ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not
had an opportunity of seeing the First Lord of the
Treasury since he had had notice of the Bight Hon.
Gentleman's question; but he believed that it was his
Right Hon. Friend's intention not. to call upon the
House to agree to any resolutions on. Monday, if there
should be any objection to his propositions.
SIR A. HENNIKER'S CHARGE.
Mr. T. DUNCO'IBE rose to call the attention of the
House to a letter which he had received on the subject
of a quotation which he had made from a Charge of Sir
A. Henniker to the grand jury of Suffolk. From the
noise-in the House, which continued during the whole
time the Honourable Member was speaking, we had
great difficulty in collecting even the purport of his
observations. We understood him to say that in the
debate on the Masters and Servants Bill he had quoted
from a charge of Sir A. Henniker to the grand jury of
Sutfilk, in which that gentleman stated his belief that
unless the landlordS did something to alleviate the con-
dition of the labouring Classes incendiaristn, would con-
tinue to increase, and not the whole of the metropolitan
police force could keep the country quiet. That
was • the .puruort of his remarks ; and he
begged to sey that he hail nut intentionally
misrepresented Sir Augustus Henniker. In a lets er
which he had received on this subject, it was stated
that Sir Augustus had said that he could not close his
eyes to the wide-spread spirit of discontent. (The Hon.
Member here read the letter alluded to, and it appeared,
as far as we could gather, that the version of Sir Au-
gustus' speech given in the letter did not differ mate-
rially from that which the Hon. Member had previeusly
given.) He (Mr. T. Duncombe) begged to express his
regret if he had misrepresented the purport of the
charge, but it appeared- to him that the only
injustice of which he had been • guilty was in
not having expressed himself sufficiently strong.
FACTORIES BILL.
On the motion that the Order of the Day for the
House resolving itself into Committee on the Factories
Bill, be read,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to call the attention of the
House to the Belfast petition, but he was interrupted by
The SPEAKER, who said that the Hon. Member was
out of order, inasmuch, as the question had not yet
been put:
Mr. ROEBUCK rose amidst loud cries of 'c Order,"
but at length gave way.
The question that the Order of the Day be read was
then put, and agreed to.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved that the Speaker do leave
the chair.
Lord ASHLEY presented several petitions in favour
of the ten hours' clause.
Mr. ALDAM presented a petition from persona em-
ployed in the woollen mills at Leeds, against the half-
time clause.
Mr. ROEBUCK then rose for the purpose of moving—
." That it is the opinion of this House that no interference
with the power of adult labourers in factories, to
make contracts respecting the. hours for which they
shall be employed, be sanctioned by this House."
He believed that he was perfectly in order in moving
this resolution before the House. went into Committee
on the Bill. It had been objected to him that he might
have moved the resolution in Committee, but, in his
opinion, great advantage would be derived from
moving it as a resolution of the House. It appeared
to him (Mr. kinebuck) that the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite was alternating between various
practices—that at one time the doctrines of non-inter-
ference with labour prevailed with him, and at another
time the opposite doctrine. He was anxious to learn
from the Right Hon. Gentleman the principles upon
which his conduct was governed. He, therefore, should
first apply himself to the general principle which
ought to prevail in order to deprive the Right
Honourable Gentleman of the power of apply-
ing his own principles in any way that he liked.
He meant to throw upon the Right Honourable
Gentleman the onus of showing why he took froth the
working classes the power of contracting for themselves;
and then lie should address himself to the Noble Lord
opposite, and throw upon
_him the onus of proving the
advantage he proposed to confer on the working
classes by legislation. He should grapple with two anta-
eonists who were opposed to each other ; but lie wished
first so to place them, as that then should not be able
to draw from an armoury which did'not legitimately belong
to them. But, before all, he wished to relieve himself from
the odium which was cast upon him, and others who
thought with him. He meant the charge of inhumanity
—(Hear, hear)—of disregard for the people—of un-
natural selfishness—nay. of celd-bloodedness, which had
been charged upon them. For himself he could say he
had a sincere sympathy for the working classes, and so
sincere was it that it could only be satisfied by seeing
them vested with the power of governing themselves.
The professing friends of the working classes would not
agree in this. He (Mr. Roebuck) said to those
professing friends give them the power to speak
themselves—give them the power to legislate
for themselves in this House. When they gave to The
working classes that power—when he found those who
professed themselveS so exceedingly anxious for the
rights of the people voting for their proper representa-
tion in that House, then he would believe that they had
some real sympathy for their sufferings. Now to
his propositions. He (Mr. Roebuck) took it as a
general rule that the labouring man had the
greatest interest in forming a contract for himself.
The next proposition was, that the working man had
the best knowledge of his own circumstances, and that
no general rule_ could be framed so well calculated to
affect his interest as his own strongly inclined views,
his wants, and necessities. , The general rule, therefore,
must be taken to be, that they could not interfere with
private interests on this subject—that the partiei them-
selves were the best calculated to make their own
contracts. Those who differed from this principle
and who advocated interference, must show the grounds
for that interference ; the onus lay upon them to do so.
Now, what right- had they to interfere with them? First,
he held that the parties having strong interest and pecu-
liar knowledge, it was incumbent for the party inter-
fering to show that they had greater knowledge ; that
they had greater interest, or that they had a greater
power of judging. But the Noble Lord said there was a pe-
culiar ailass of men in this country called " factory men,"
that there were peculiar things connected with their con-
dition that called for the interference of the Legislature,
and that those peculiarities were overwork and under-
pay. Now, upon that the Noble Lord had collected a
great mass of evidence which he had flung upon the
table of the House, stating that that evi fence showed
great immorality and great misery. Such were the
Noble Lord's premises, but the next step that the Noble
Lord took was a most remarkable one—he stated that great
misery existed from overwork and underpay, and he
stated that the person that did not suppoi t him in that
proposition was an enemy to the working classes, to
humanity, and to all the best feelings Of the human
heart, and that as such, he ought to be branded as the
enemy of his kind. Now, between the Noble Lord's
premises and his conclusions, there was in his (Mr. Roe-
buck's) opinion no connection whatever. Having este.=
Wished that an evil existed, he ought to have gone on
to show that the proposition which he had. brought
forward was a remedy fur that evil.—(Hear, hear.)
However anxious he might be to ameliorate the distress,
he might be a bad, he might be an ignorant physi-
cian. and what he proposed, instead of relieving
might increase the misery he described, and
so far from ameliorating a single misfortune,
might bring a curse upon those for whom
be legislated. This, he thought, described the position
of the Noble Lord. • He had been misled by his sym-
pathies, and he came to that House to show that great
misery existed in a particular class of labourers. Now
it was very easy for the ranting demagogue to go,
a sort of wandering instrument, round the country;
for the dissemination of Ignorance and ill-feeling ; that
was a very easy thing to do ; it was •assumed by the
most vulgar and the most ignorant of mankind ; that was
an object easy of attainment, but what the House required
was something beyond that ignorance—something beyond
that blustering weakness, something beyend that coward
following out of opinions which in that House dared not
be maintained. That was easy ; but what that House
required was that they should not only prove the
existence of evils, but show also the efficiency
of their remedy ; that they should not accuse
that House, by its legislation, of being the cause of
those evils which arose out of the circumstances of our

condition as human beings ; that they should not throw,
on any class in this country, the odium arising. from

that which was the mere necessity of our nature. • Ile,
had said that that class of mind, which thus sough"
to obtain notoriety, was among the lowest '111•
Most vulgar which could deprave humanity ; and
which, though in a time of excitement might nicet
with some transient favour from that House would, ''e
hoped, when the House came to its right senses, be, 032 s
ought to b', declared a calumny and a falsehood: 'rive
first step the Noble Lord had taken was to show that the
factory labourer was in a peculiar position—that liencas
in a situation which distinguished him from all others--;
that there 'was that in the . peculiar. incidenti
his history which enabled a Legislative bc'tls
to interfere in his behalf. NOSY, they wanted to 100"
whit were the peculiar characteristics of the factory 10"
bower. First, he found that the factory labourer w 55
quite as well feel, to say the least of it, as any other ly
bourer in the community, and he should be enable] to
shy w that the factory labourer was better fed than .111”:
whet': He then found that the factory labourer was Day
subjected to worse toil than other classes of the commit"
lefty, and he would beg the House to remark that it was
not enough to get an undigested mass •Of evident:6 on
this point, for if he chose to turn the Noble Ler°
weapons against- himself, he could draw from ited's
mass of proofs of the existence of misery of neer),
kind among the labourers of this country.—(Rear')
Now he would take one in this town. The one fie IT
about to mention might excite the merriment of Is°
House ; but he mentioned it •becanie' he' believes
they were a more sorely taxed class; of labourers
than any in the community —he meant the
women-of-all-work in the 'city of Louden.-(Seat'
hear. Let them compare their condition with
that of the factory girls, and the condition of the latter
would be found a paradise compared with that of; the
former.—(Hear, hear.) Let them compare the urea
who worked in factories with the men who were edgOrv_e,
in agriculture.—(Hear, hear.) He found that asns
who worked in factories were covered and- eleatireu
from all the inclemency of the seasons; be found- tble
:
they had good pay, and that they were far happier 65,7
the agriculturists, who were exposed to cold, and /I
and frost; and to have bad pay, bad clothing, and lna
lodging.—(ilear, hear.) The factory workers red
better pay, less toil, better clothing, and better
lodging. Anal what was there s to disdlr
guish factory men in such •a way as to ietew'
the interference of the Legislature in their behalf?'
(Hear, hear.) He found two circumstances to distill'
guish his position. Those who worked in factories were
congregated into masses which invited investigation'
which insured inspection—which brought their condition
continually before the public.—(Hear, hear.) The),
did not live, like the agrieulturists, far distal"
tram the gaze of local superintendents, Wb°
might bring their misery and toil before the world, wba
eould bring down indignation upon the masters, an
make their agricultural tyrants tremble. Now such
not the condition of the factory workmen. Their con'ti'.
tion was to be congregated in multitudes, which multt"
tildes made of themselves a force which invited atter.,
tion, from the very -fact of their being congregated
into masses, which covered them with an aegis of era'
tection from the mere fact of being thus exhibited to.the
public gaze.—(Hear, hear.) That he found was the first
cnaracteristic of their condition, and one consequence
°f
condition was the present meddling wi t.
t
their position.—(Loud cheers.) The factory laboura,
t
worked in conjunction with machinery, which being 11"
into fair ordinary English meant this, that the 10'
chinery had all the hard work, and that the labourer,
had that which rsquired mental lahour.—(Hear, hear.)
It would not do for the Noble Lord and Gentlemen-er
polite to say that as machinery was impro.ved, the labour
of the operative was increased. He (Mr. Roebuck)
dallied that proposition. In every process, as machinery
advanced, its peculiarity was absolutely to imitate d°
huthan mind—that it discharged offices which, a prieristtv°
centuries ago; if any one anticipated, he would htiva,
i
been described as a dreamer. It relieved the labour of
the operative, and reduced him, in reality, to be a were
superintendent of a certain line of superhuman power'
He denied• that such improvements in machinery in;
creased the labour of those who -superintended the
machinery. He put forward that proposition witilesl
himself having the slightest doubt of its accurst
He invited every man who knew or who wisher,
to know anything about the matter, to WA
it to the utmost ; and he asserted this, that every 3",
,
vance and improvement in machinery had lessens'
human labeur—had lessened it in time and in infer
sity. Now, he found that the peculiarities attaching
to the factory men were two. One, that :II
were congregated in masses; the other, that they wait
in conjunction with machinery. He could find no otilea:
and if the general rule were accurate, that they le/.
had the must interest, and the greatest knowledge, E
judge of their own affairs, ought to make a coot
for themselves, he asked the Noble Lord opposite':
how it -came that those two elements, having el;i-
-tered into the composition of this complicated
case, should render it a ground for him to
terfere in their case, when he did not interfere'`
in the case of the agricultural labourer? There was 611
thing he wanted to clear up. It would not do to eoBs
f.
down there with exaggerated descriptions of misery, °f
deformity, of want, and of suffering. He (Mr. 11141
buck) denied them all.--(" Hear, hear," and "Ow
" Oh," said the Honourable Member for Poreld
(Mr. M. Mimes). He (Mr. Roebuck) wan! 4
to know if that Hon. Gentleman had aver investigsteb,
the case. It was very easy to make propositions ne,'itn
jingling sounds and jingling syllables, but he (Mr. 04
wanted knowledge before he legislated.—(Hear, hear')
That being the condition of the people fat; .
whom they were about to legislate, he would rtf
trouble the House with a mass of evidence. Indeed, I",`
.
ought to apologise to the House for having already 01);
dressed them at such length upon the matter.—(Hear')
He stated it broadly, and he called upon the Noble
Lord to deny it, that the Factory Commissioners of 1833
declared that the condition of the factory-labourinf.
population of this country was superior to any other
labouring popnlation.—(Hear, hear.) He knew the)
could pick out individual cases here and there of suffe,rl:l
ing, and far was it from him to speak of' them id
the slightest degree with anything like levitli
He felt for the misery of the labourer in the factory. s°,a
for the misery of the agricultural labourer, and he wean
by and bye argue that question with the l'OblY
Lord and those who supported him.—(l-lear'
u s'
What he said, however, was this. It Was very eesel;
to bring forward individual instances of deformity,
il,",
they must make out that it was the consequence of le e
system, and besides tnaking out that it was the col0e;
quence of the system, they must know that by legislatic, •i
enactments they could relieve it. Unless they establish
eut
these two propositions they did nothing. Now' had: t
the Factory Commissioners, in 1833, declared distinew
and clearly that the labourers of the manufacturing
pulation were better off in every particular than any
other class of the labouring population of this countr):l-„
They were better off in every particular. As he had
e S
alreac'y said, they were better paid, better lodged, tu'
better fed. And now he came to that which -he klf`
would be treated as the ad captandum argument on that I
occasion. The Noble Lord said, " What have
so little regard for a woman, as to wish that v.'
should be taken from those labours which are her ref
liar sphere, which make her the solace of our livT
which make her the instrument of oar early educatil
and in fact prove her and form her to be the fries
of man ? Are you willing to destroy her ("d
power, to make her a machinee to unfit her to rear 5,0,e,
make her race ? In tact, are you willing to a:,
grade the human race by making their mothers
'iv
miserable beings ?" That was the kind of arguss
went which was used. Now, he would ask, first, , ;
the labouring woman in the factory worse off than 6i) f „
would be if she were not in the factory? Judging; 17,1
her situation as an agricultural labourer, he 101 •
e
say that her situation eas fax better. I,r
had this peculiar evidence in his fairoti
b-
that all the medical men who had investigated the Ilse
ject in 1833, declared that the labouring woman Waseto
be:ter able to cope with the labour in the factory t"iis
the man. He could understand why. It Ice,„
in-door work—it was Warm (so far it was co
fortable), and all that was required of her was cO-f
tinuous attention. It was the peculiar characteristic °,l
woman, that she could give this continuous attention, s ,
not suffer in her health ; while man, when bound,o
give continuous attention to in-door labour, o_2re,
did not task his intellect, usually did suffer in bezmetes
Every medical person who had examined into the state cq--es,
labourers in the factory districts had declared without one sr
ception that the women in the factories bore the factory liw-eheir,
the best—that it was better suited to their habits, and to
physical and psychological conditions than any other speciettei
labour, that it was anything but hard labour, and that tion
were in a far better state for the maintenance and prepae reel
of their species than the agricultural labourers. He "A.-,
that part of the argument answered by the Noble Lo
00
(Hear, hear.) Then as to the men. Were the men wersl,ol
in any way than the labourers in any other business ? ~.
shown that they were better paid, better fed, better Cl
than the agricultural labourer. Now he asked if there tion
anything peculiar in their condition with respect to the reletics
which they bore to their masters, which rendered leki„.l,.*ltsd
interference necessary. It had been said that the magt;sef
power over his manufacturing labourers, which he had es',,e.se
his agricultural labourers.—(Hear.) That he den of
of
(Hear.) The same incidents regulated the rate' of wetferl
persons employed in factories that regulated them in rs-
other case ; and they acted with more certainty and e'°'4 to-
pidity whenever 'a multitude of persons were congregatew'here
gether as they were in the manufacturing districts than agri'
they were congregated and separatedas they were in the to
cultural districts. In the latter case each man was ft)! n,is
act for himself. There were never any combinati°,ool-
the country—there were always combinations in th,e._,,t the
facturing districts.—( Hear, hear.) This showedr" thso
agricultural labourer was in a worse condition drero
the labourer in the factory. The agricultural lit.l.!cild op
dare not combine.—( Hear. ) That man who - should eve%
his hand for a combination would be crushed. They .sA„ g,
and
that combinations existed in the manufacturing dist.ro±
so far the manufacturing labourer stood lass in need e."llley re-
lative assistance than the agricultural labourers. of the
quired no assistance. So much for the conditiotlnfiosly.
labourer in the manufacturing districts, which eras !jowl!'
superior to the condition of the labourer in the egLie Lerd;
districts. He now came to the proposition of the S'°/.,'"ord has
Let it be for one moment allowed that the Nelmehe factorY
made out his case—that he had established that
t a more
' the kinittorn salons
labourers were worse fed, worse paid, worse clothed,.__ainet het
miserable than any other labourers in
and see what could be drawn from it. In the first P ,A. /400
throw the Noble Lord's statement into a distinct prioapnon,
vi.Ley
them
were over-worked; in the second, they werennudneleret'payPawlmas
the whole panacea for this overwork and Let
fining the houra of labour to ten hours a
.day. , and te
oflimtibteece jabouserts
suppose the hours of labour to be thus
see what would be the conditionwould gof
The limiting of the hours of work to n hours
en
er day
rid of the question of over- work ; he wowad
under-pay. The labour- r game forward,
best price be (Mr.
labour into the market, offering it at the 13 hint •
se
get for it from the manufacturer. That brought
.._Ol the
.rnetd
Roebuck) to the main question, which wasblue'
ye, that n bele
• • And here be must o ser
to the vr featuring capitalists.
ntipatuY , joo.
seen in that. House a curious feeling of a
would uu
race of manufa, taring capitalists. If they of prig. a destruction„abroad, amid ask who lifted them from theydY and 51..„
-hand gatuoghthetaahuii;
which was yawning for them—who grapp_sow
came Napoleon Buonaparte—his (Mr. ii""