The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-03 00:00:00

ECCLESIASTICAL tOURfS.

Sir GEORGE GREY begged to ask the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet another question :—Whether it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to propose in -this session any measure
for the improvement of the Ecclesiastical Courts ; and if so,
whether thar measure would be introduced in this or the other
House of Parliament ?
Sir JAMES GRAH AM said that his Noble Friend the
Lord Chancellor had announced in the other House his inten-
tion to bring in a Bill upon the subject at an early period.
THE CASE OF MR. 13‘ONHAM.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that as his saw the Hon. Mem-
ber for Exeter had just taken his place, he wished to ask
him a question relating to a notice given by the Honourable
Gentleman, which, it not explained. might have an injurious
effect upon the reputation of an Honourable Friend of his.
He allud.d to the notice which the Mon. Member for Exeter
had given of a motion on the Bth of February, for an address to
her Majesty to dismiss F. R. Bonham, Esq., from the office
of Storekeeper of the Ordnance.—( Hear„ hear.) He (Sir
R. Peel) wished to inquire whether the• Hon. Gentleman
would object to state what werethe grounds of his motion ?
Mr. DIVETT said that when he gave Coe notice he had no
intention of injuring the reputation of Mr.. Bonham ; but, on
the contrary, he sincerely hoped that gentleman would be able
to give a satisfactory explanation of his conduct on the occa-
sion of which he (Mr. D.) thought he had reason to complain.
As a preliminary, he must state that, though undoubtedly he
was influenced by public considerations in bringing the subject
forward, the complaint which he had to make referred not to
Mr. Bonham's official position, but to the functions which
he performed in the position which he held with refe-
rence to the Carlton Club, and the Conservative party.—
( Great laughter.) Gentlemen might laugh ; they pro-
bably knew Mr. Bonham's functions much better
than he did; but undoubtedly his functions appeared to him of
such a questionable character that he thought it essential that
the Government should learn what they were.—(Cries of
"Oh ! oh 1") He was not aware that he had said anything to
cause that interruption. As he had already said, he most sin-
cerely hoped that Mr. Bonham would be able to give a satis-
factory answer to the charge which he had to make against
him.—(Hear, hear.) That charge, he would now state, related
to his conduct in reference to the last London election. The
charge was, that Mr. Bonham, either through himself or guided
by others, had made representations which, if not intentionally
fraudulent, were certainly reprehensible. He had been
very sorry to find it necessary to make any complaint of
that nature.—(llear, hear.) He had even thought of writing
to the Right Hon. Baronet to know whether he justified
such a mode of carrying on the business of elections, but he
had ultimately thought that it would not be desirable to pursue
such a course. He thought, however, that as the matter was
one affecting the purity of election and the state of the Parlia-
mentary representation, it was his duty to bring it under the
consideration of the House. If the Hun. Gentleman wished
him to state the case then, instead of making the
deliberate motion which he had put on the books, he
was prepared to do so. At the same time he must state that
there were two or three letters on the subject, which he had
not then in his possession. and the reading of which was es-
sential to its proper elucidation.--( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. PEEL said he had no wish to elicit from the Hon.
Gentleman a general statement of the transactions to which he
referred, he had only wished to ascertain whether the motion
was grounded on some official act of misconduct, independently
of any electioneering question.
Mr. DIVETT repeated, that it did not relate to Mr. Bon-
ham's conduct in his official position. It referred not to his
ostensible, but to his real position in relation to the Govern-
ment.—(lronical cries of Hear, hear. )

t either by removal from their situations or dismissal from their
.0 farms. The Chandos clause was passed to carry into effect the
clause. He said then, that when they had not the power to en-
force these rules, they ought not to be annually v.sted. He was
quite sure that if a Commit ee of the 'louse were :to si on these
Standing Orders, a great number of them Is ould be expunged,
as applicable only to times long past. They all well knew
that the Peers of this realm openly subieribed large sums
of votes, and otherwiie: influence the re-
turns mrnsoany to buyteelections. Yes, he would be-proud to say there was
not a gentleman on the Treasury benches, who could not point
out Peers who were subscribers to the Election Fund at the
Carlton Club, nor a gentleman on his side of the House who
could not point out others, subscribers to the Reform funds. He
said this was an interference of the Peers with the privileges of
that House. And yet, they took no means to put a stop to such
practices, except by passing
a series of orders which they never
enforced. Another of these orders directed that no strangers
should be allowed in the House, and that should one be found
there, he should ins'antly be taken into custody by the Ser-
geant-at-Arms. Why this order was violated every day, for
every Member had the acknowledged privilege of giving an or-
der for the admission of a friend to the gallery, and that privi-
lege he exercised. And even their Speaker himself violated
this sessional order every day. 'I here was a portion of that
House set apart, far the Speaker alone to give or-
ders to—the part known as the Speaker's Gallery. Those
who desired admission to this gallery could only obtain
it through an application to the Speaker himself,
who, with his usual courtesy, directed the applicant's
name to be placed on his Secretary's list. How could the
House then, with these open and avowed violations, allow such
standing orders to remain at all? He was surprised that self-
respect had not long since induced the House to abandon orders
some of which they could not enforce, others of which they
freely permitted to be laughed at and put on one side. They
ought to be abrogated, and others ought to be framed, which,
whilst they ensured the obedience of the House, would also
command the respect of the people.
Colonel WYND !lAA' slid that as the representative of a
large agricultural community he could not refrain from making
a few observations, although those observations had no relation
whatever to the subject. before the House.—(Laughter.)
The SPEAKER—The lion. Gentleman must confine his
observations to the question before the House.
Cotonel WYNDHAAI—Arn I not at liberty, Sir, to reply to
the statements brought forward by the Hon. Member for
Coventry ?
The SPEAKER—Yes.

Colonel WYNDUAM said he could not sit still after hear•

ing the unjust asrersions that had been thrown upon the lauded
aristocracy of the country. The Hon. Member said that they
drove their terant voters to the poll like so many sheep.—
Well that might have been the case fifty years ago, but he
denied—emphatically denied—that such was the case at pre-
sent. Why should not a man invest money in any mode of
business he thought proper, and had not a man a right to in-
vest money in land if he thought proper?—( Renewed laughter. )
Why common sense would tell a man that he had. Those
gentlemen upon the other side of the House who were the pro-
prietors of mills, and manufactories, were not interfered with
when they invested capital in these things, although numbers
of men employed in them had been turned adrift, and
become a burden on the agricultural community. The Anti-
Anti-Corn-law League—(Laughter)—had risen up in its own
defence, and shown the Government that the agricultural in-
terest was nine millions strong, whereas the manufacturing in-
terest was only three millions strong—that League had given a
confidence to the Government which they could not overlook.
Mr. CHRISTIE said that it was not his intention to move
the amendment of which he had given notice, respecting the
exclusion of strangers and the publication of debates at present;
but as it would not prejudice him on a future occasion to post-
pone it, he would bring it under the consideration of the House
as a substantive motion at an early period.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS wished to know whether the Act that
was passed the session before last embraced the whole of the
sessional orders. If that were se, every proposition contained
in the orders was embraced in the Act, and therefore they
were not necessary.

Sir GEORGE CLERK was understood to say that the
orders now under consideration were brought in five or six
years ago, and the Hon. Member was mistaken in supposing
that, the Act he referred to embraced them.

On the reading of the order for the precedence of coders to
motions on two days of the week.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that he considered the order to
be attended with very great inconvenience. One effect of it
was, that it caused I3ills at the end of the session to be hurried
through the House without discus-ion, and almost without
consideration. He trusted the Government would impose
upon themselves the same regulations they imposed on other
Alembers of the House with respect to notices of motion and
Bills brought in on the Wednesdays.
Sir R. PEEL did not think the regulations for which the
Honourable Member contended were necessary, or would
be productive of any benefit. It Was generally
the disposition on the part of all Members to
take the business which was most convenient. The Hon.
Gentleman surely did not mean that his rule should prevent
altogether the bringing on of the supplies? He thought
that the best course for the Government would be to give
notice on the days devoted to Government business, what
business should be brought on. But to say that they should
go through twenty orders of the day, would only be to defeat
public business. The Hon. Gentleman had said that he had
waited six nights to bring on a motion ; if he had done so, he
had at least had the advantage of hearing discussions on other
subjects.—( A laugh. )
Mr. WILLIAMS rose to explain. If the Right Hon.
Baronet would only exercise the same ingenuity—(Cries of
" Order, order," amid which the Hon. Member sat down. )
The orders were then agreed to.
THE ADDRESS.

Lord CLIVE brought up the Report on the address, which
was read at the table by the clerk. . . . _ ..

Mr. S. CRA 11/FOl--th rose to move the omission of all
those words which related to the repeal of the union. They
were told that it was not right to discuss what was now going
on in Ireland. If so it was not right to introduce the repeal of
the union with the address, giving their approval to the pro-
ceedings which had not yet terminated. He was not now dis-
posed to give a pledge to maintain the union inviolate under
any circumstances. He had never advocated the repeal of the
union ; he had never connected himself with the repeal move-
ment ; but he would not pledge himself to oppose it under all
circumstances. Unless the union was carried out in such a
manner as to do full justice to Ireland, it ought to
be repealed. If such laws as the Irish Arms'
Bill were carried, if they did not legislate justly for
Ireland, the people of that country might fairly demand the
repeal of the union. The House had often before given
pledges of their attachment to the union, but they had
accompanied those pledges with declarations of their desire to
improve Irish institutions; and having given those pledges, be
was hound to say that they hail not kept faith with the Irish
peolle. It was said that there had been a conspiracy in Ireland
against the Government. He believed there had been a con-
spiracy elsewhere against the people of Ireland.--( Hear, hear. )
He wished to warn that House and her Majesty's Government
that the steps which had been taken in Ireland were adding
both numbers and power to the repeal agitation, beyond any-
thing which had hitherto occurred. Even those who
were best affected towards British connexion hardly knew
what course to adopt.—( Hear, hear.) He was himself an ad-
vocate of that connexion, but if it could be maintained only at
the sacrifice of the rights and liberties of Ireland, he would
thuow it to the winds. He never would be a party to main-
taining British connexion by the surrender of all those rights
which every freeman was entitled to enjoy, and of which
Irishmen would not consent to be deprived. The Hon. Mem-
ber then proved that all the words relating to the repeal of the
union should he expunged.
The question having been put,
Air. FITZSIEPHEN FFRENCH trusted that his Hon.
Friend would not object to having the whole of the paragraph
relating to Ireland expunged from the address, unless an as-
surance was given by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the
head of the Government that some meaning was to be attached
to the words.

The O'CONOR DON agreed with his Hon. Friend in
thinking the tendency of the paragraph in question would be
most injurious, and that it was calculated to produce a most
prejudicial
.effect, as far as regarded the trials now pending.
The declaration of her Majesty at the close of the last session
wasofits su fliciently
tthe
explicit, and
present therewas
im
te no
exceptnecessitya
s for a re-
h vshowing
the line of policy which the Government intended to adopt,
and that consequently it was calculated to exert great influence
on the jury. He was sure that the House must deplore such a
result. The present was not the moment for discussing the
policy of the repeal of the union ; that question, however, was
open to discussion. The Noble Lord the Member for London
had, last year, told them that the seeking of the repeal of an
Act of Parliament was not a breach of the Constitution.—
( Hear, hear.) Ii there were no attempts to sever the two
kingdoms—if all that was wished was to place them in the
position they occupied previous to the year 1800—he thought
the advocates of the repeal had been hardly dealt by,. for they
had been represented as wishing to sever the two kingdoms,
and as being deficient in their allegiance, when, their only.ob-
ject was to place the kingdoms in the same relative positions
which they had occupied previous to the union. He protested
against the paragraph, as being calculated to affect the decision
of the jury.
Sir ROBERT PEEL appealed to the House whether the
general tenor of the address did not sufficiently prove that
it was not the wish of the Government, in the slightest
degree to influence the decision of the jury.—( Cheers.) He
was surprised at this objection being taken to-night, as
although the subject had been discussed last night, and many
Members opposed to the Government had admitted that they
had no difficulty in concurring in the address—( Hear, hear)
—some Hon. Gentleman had proposed an amendment—the
Hon. Gentleman himself had proposed an amendment on an-
other part of the address, but he had found no fault with that
part of it which was at present the subject of discussion.
The Hon. Member for Montrose had also moved an amendment
to the address, but he had made no reference to that portion of
it. The Noble Lord the Member for London—the Noble
Lord the Member for Tiverton, had signified their concur-
rence ; and he thought;therefore, under those circumstances,
that those must be rather fastidious critics who thought that
the reference to the union would be likely to prejudice the
trial. On the other hard, it might be ceetended, with an
equal show of reason, that the desire expressed by
her Majesty to co-operate with Parliament in the
measures tending to the developement of the resources
of Ireland, and to the removal of the evils
under which that country was suffering, would influence the
jury in favour of the defendants ; but there was the expres de-
claration on the part of her Majesty, that she forbore from
making any observations on events in Ireland, in respect of
which proceedings were pending before the courts of justice.
Even if there had been anything equivocal in those portions of
the speech to which he had referred, that declaration, on the
part of her Majesty, showed that the disposition of those by
whom that speech had been framed,. was to cautiously abstain
from the use of any expressions which would be supposed likely
to influence the jury. It was out of his power to agree to the
proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, and he considered the
fears that had been expressed to be totally without founda-
tion.—( Hear. )
Mr. BLEWI TT, in allusion to the complaint of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that this subject had not been mentioned last
night, would remind the House of the complaint of the Hon.
Member for Montrose, that they were called upon to vote the
address without having had any time allowed them to consider
the speech.—( Hear, hear.) Had a copy of the speech been
furnished to them beforehand, so as to give them an oppor-
tunity of considering it, he should certainly have brought for-
ward a motion similar to that now before the House ; for he
considered that part of the speech to which the motion re-
ferred to be most unconstitutional, indecorous, and improper.
—( A laugh.) He had last session complained that the Right
Hon. Baronet had used her Majesty s name in a most uncon-
stitutional manner, and he renewed the complaint now. The
Crown had no power to tell the people that they should not
agitate to procure the repeal of a law. It was the privilege
of the people of this country to agitate against any law from
which they dissented, or with which they were dissatisfied; and
not only because he believed that paragraph of the speech calcu-
lated to affect the trials, but also for the reasons he
had already stated, he should support the motion of the Hon.
Gentleman. He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman what
would have been thought if a declaration had been inserted in
a speech that in her Majesty's opinion the corn-law ought to
be continued for ever?—( Hear, hear.) This would be only
the same thing as saying that the union should never be re-
pealed, and yet he felt assured that if in her Majesty's speech
it had been declared that the corn-law should not be repealed,
such an a4itation would have been raised throughout the
country as had not existed since England had been a nation.
He felt exceedingly excited on this subject ever since he had

TIEIE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 3, 1844