The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-05 00:00:00

PRICE OF SUGAR.

the Rocky Mountains and the Pacific! beg your Lordships to
mark this—should for a term of ten trs be free to both coun-
tries. Another convention was ma .lonfirming this for an
indefinite period, to be determined athe will of either party ;
and yet the President of the UnitoLtates in the very first
act of his administration has thght himself justified in
announcing to the people of the Und States that it is the
duty of the Government to maAin their right to the
country westward of the Rocky ountains, and between
those mountains and the Pacific ; thrtheir title to the Oregon
territory is clear and unquestionableand that the people are
about to perfect that title by proceesg with their wives and
children to occupy the country ; that is the duty of the Go-
vernment to afford them adequate ptection—to extend the
benefit of American laws and of reptlican institutions to this
distant country which they had selted fur their home, and
which with the increased facilities (communication will soon
be brought within the sphere of ti Federal Union. I re-
joice, my Lords, to think, that the 'tole question is viewed in
a very different spirit here ; that were actuated by no anxiety
for territorial possessions, but by a sbere desire for peace, and
by a most friendly feeling towards ti American nation. So
far as lam acquainted with the ecumstances, 1 believe no
assertion has ever been made that ouown case is free from all
doubt, and I am sure we shill realy concede what can be
justly claimed by America: liOn thither hand, I am equally
sure that the people of Ibis countrjwill not give up their
unquestionable rights, either to encrichment, to clamour, or
to menace ; and though I doubt nothat my Noble Friend will
use his utmost endeavours to bring to question to an amicable
and satisfactory issue, yet if his eflos should unfcrtunatel3
fail, I trust that her Majesty's Gvernment will not shrink
from adopting that course sshich it ray be necessary to pursue
in order to vindicate the nation's haour, or to uphold the na-
tion's interests.—( Hear, hear.)

The Average Price of Brown or Muscovado Sugar, for the
week ending, April 1, 18-15,' is 30s. B%cl. per cwt., exclusive
of the Duties of Customs paid or payable thereon on the im-
portation thereof into Great Britain.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, April 4.
The House met at the usual hour.
IRISH CONSTABULARY.—SANITARY
REGULATIONS.

The Maquis of NORMANBY gave notice that he would,
on Monday next, move for a return of the appointment of the
coratabulary from the Ist of May, 1838, to the present time.
He would on the same day also present a petition from
the Mayor and town council of Kilkenny, in the county
of Lein3ter on the subject of sanitary regulations in towns.
The Noble Marquis also gave notice that he would put a ques-
tion on the same day, in order to ascertain how soon the Go-
vernment Bill on this subject would be introduced before the
House.
HILL-COOLIES—SUNDAY TRADING—LOCAL
RATES.
The NOBLE MARQUIS also presented a petition, numerously
signed, from the town of Leeds against the introduction of bill•
coolies into Jamaica ; also petitions from Yorkshire against
the opening of public-houses on Sunday ; also a petition from
the Mayor and Town- Council of Cork, praying that instead of
the grand jury, they should have some other tribunal for the
settlement of local rights.
THE WELSH BISHOPRICS.

The Earl of ABERDEEN—I tink it is perfectly natural
that, in such a conjuncture as thepresent, the Noble Lord
may reasonably expect to receive itch information from her
Majesty's Government as they, in to discharge of their duty,
may feel it possible to give. I ate far from objecting to the
course of putting questions to th Government upon any
matter of public importance, and crtainly not on one of such
paramount interest as this. My Lrds, if I followed my own
inclination in this matter, I should at once be disposed to lay
on the table of the House every pat of the negotiation which
has taken place upon this subjet from the period of the
treaty of Washington up to the preent day. I am sure that
if I did so I should not only ieceive from the candour
at opinion approving the
courseof m
which my
Noble
pursued,but might fairly appeal to
the public at large, and even to tie whole of Europe for its
Friendas
been opposite
confirmation. A time may come when such a course may
possibly be necessary. At present it would clearly be un-
suitable and impolitic. I could wsh for an opportunity to
explain a little snore at length tie state of this question, as
affects the interests and the clahl of this country to the
disputed territory. The Noble Lcrel has cursorily described
the claims of this country and of tie United States with suf-
ficient accuracy, as far as he has g 0... Tti..7, 1....ie....5e, would
WHIM of a much more detailed examination, and, although I
might now enter into that examination without injury to the
public service, I feel that I could not do it without inconveni-
ence to your Lordships, and this also I think it better to de-
fer to a future occasion. I shall therefore only address myself
to the inquiry of my Noble Friend. I wish to state that the
negotiation which has taken place, and which is still pending,
upon this subject was commenced immediately after the sign-
ing of the treaty by my Noble Friend near me. Without, of
course, explaining to your Lordships any of the steps that have
been taken in the progress of that negotiation, I wish to draw
your attention to the last act of the late President, before his
resignation of office. The Senate of the United States having
addressed Mr. Tyler so long ago as the month of December,
requesting him to communicate with them and inform them
as to the progress of this negotiation, Mr. Tyler, in his answer,
which was not delivered until Feb. 19, states,—" In my opinion.
as this negotiation is still pending, the information sought for
cannot be communicated without prejudice to the public service,
but I deem it proper to add, that considerable progress has
been made in the negotiation, which has been carried on in a
very amicable spirit between the two Governments, and that
there is reason to hope that it may be Drought to a close withit
a short period. I have delayed answering the resoluti yn of the
Senate, under the expectation expressed in my annual message.
that the negotiation would be terminated before the else of
the present session, and that the information called for by that
resolution aught be communicated." lam bound to say that I
thick the late President took somewhat too favourable a view
of the s ate of the negotiation when he made that answer to the
Senate. At the same time, as an indication of a friendly feel-
ing, and of a desire to bring it to an amicable termination, such
a eectaration of opinion must be highly sari-factory. My Leeds,
in a fortnight er the delivery of this answer to the address
the Senate, the new Pr,sident made the inaugural speech re
ferret' to by my Noble Friend. I wish to observe that this
speech is not an address made to Congress—it is a speech
made to the public. The Congress not being sitting. no
speech of the kind could be made by the President of the
United States without drawing towards it the most serious
attention. Nevertheless, it does not possess the importance
of an official document, nor can it be regarded as forming
part of legislative proceedings. Ido not undervalue its im-
portance ; but I must observe, that it has not quite the cha-
racter of an address made to the Congress as the foundation o'
any legislative measure. I have already mentioned that that
declaration of the late President is the last act of which we
have any knowledge as far as the negotiation is concerned. The
new President had no Ministry at the time he made his speech.
His Administration was not formed, and no communication
had taken place between her Majesty's Ministers and any Go-
vernment of the United States since the resignation of the late
President and of his Administration. We therefore stand
precisely in the position in which we stood at the time of the
_ .

The B:shop of BANGOR presented several petitions from
places in Wales praying for a repeal of the Act uniting the
bishoprics of Bangor and St. Asaph.
INCOME-TAX.—IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a house-
owner in the district of St. John's-wood, complaining of the
oppressive operation of certain parts of the Income-tax Bill.
The Noble Lord also presented a petition from tradesmen
against the administration of the Act passed last year abolish•
ing imprisonment for debts under 201. The petitioners did not
object to the abolition of imprisonment, but they complained
that creditors had not an adequate remedy.
PUNISHMENT OF PAUPERS FOR NON-PAYMENT
OF POOR-RATES.
Lord BROUGHAM had two petitions to present
respecting most unjust and cruel imprisonment of
two paupers, not for the mere non-payment of
poor-rates, but for the non•payment of charges in
the magistrates' office. Thomas Lukin and Ann Ward were
sentenced by the " insane magistrates" of Leicester for non-
payment of poor-rates—the one pauper in the amount of
ss. 4d_, *ad tit° othvt iii the amount 01 Os. 71°. some
humane person paid the amount of rate due by Ann Ward, but
those " insane magistrates" committed her for the costs, in the
amount of 205., which was four times the amount of her debt,
when, being evidently unable to pay these smaller sums, they
were plainly unable to pay the larger sum of 20s. They had
stated their utter inability to pay the ss. and the 35., and when
having thus shown their inability they were, against all law
and reason, sent to prison for a month with hard
labour, a punishment which could be inflicted on no man in
this country, without a man had committed some crime of so
infamous a character as to take it out of the common class
of misdemeanours. This was the first time that ever he had
heard that debt was to be treated by the laws of England as
a crime. He was aware that there was an Act, the Act of the
18th George HI. c. 19, by which a power was given to
magistrates to commit anyone to prison for one month
for the non payment of the costs which had been awarded
to an injured party. But in this case all such power
had been exceeded ; and when these persons declared their
poverty—when they had stated their inability to pay the
ss. 4d in the first instance, they had, in the exercise of their
power, committed them to prison. Those magistrates might
have acted discreetly, they might have acted legally, nay,
he would even go so far as to allow that, deep
as the sarcasm might appear, they might even have
acted humanely. Of their conduct in the mere committal he
would riot complain, but there was one thing of which he
did complain, one thing which he would confide not to their
Lordships, but to his noble Friend on the Woolsack, and that
was the committal without a hearing. He understood
that those magistrates were highly respectable
individuals. but he would tell them—he would tell any man—
he would tell every man, that no respec'ability, however great,
could place any man so high, be he lawman or l,e he layman, as
to lift him above the law. He must do his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary of the Home Department the jCl3' iCe
to say, that as soon as the matter was men-
tioned to him, he immediately relieved these men
from their imprisonment. But he thought that something
more than this was required, and he would leave it to his Noble
Friend on the woolsack to say whether such men as those were
fit to be left in the administration of justice in this country.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that if, after inquiry,
he found the conduct of these magistrates was such as it had
been represented, that he should feel it his duty to remove them
from the Commission of the Peace.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that inquiry ought also to
be made to see if there was not some remedy for the injustice
they had suffered, and if not, the sooner the law was altered
the better.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that, in a case of in-
justice by a magistrate, the injured party was entitled to
remedy by an action.
The Earl of CLARE presented a petition from the parochial
schoolmasters of the parish of Auchterarder, in Perthshire,
praying for an increased remuneration.
THE OREGON TERRITORY.

answer of the late President, with the exception of such a

character as the relations may have received from the speech
pronounced upon his inaugurotion by the new President. My
Lords, I wish also to state, that our position is precisely such
as it has been for the last eighteen years with respect to our
rights, and the treaty which was made in 1827 renewing or
rather continuing the treaty of 1818, which was for ten years.
The treaty of 1827 continued that treaty for an indefinite
period, but with the provision that either party might terminate
it by a year's notice. There is nothing whatever to prevent the
Government of the United States or her Majesty's Government,
if they thought proper, from terminating that treaty of 1827
by giving a year's notice for the purpose, which, however, the
seyeet s notice being
President has not said he means to give ; but if he does mean
it he cannot effect his purpose without a vote of the Congress
authorising him to do 30 ; the Congress will not meet unless
specially ca tosrether
„..se awn toe time at wine the President receives the neces-
sary authority to give such notice. Your Lordships will see,
therefore, that in point of time, the matter is not so urgent as
might be supposed. I need not say, that her Majesty's Go-
vernment will continue to avail themselves of the intervening
period which may exist, in the hope of bringing the negotiation
which is still pending to an amicable conclusion. The ne-
gotiation was founded upon the principle of an amicable ad-
justment by the mutual concession of extreme claims on
both sides, and on that principle it will be continued.
My Noble Friend has by no means expressed any censure of
the mode of proceeding that her Majesty's Government have
adopted in this matter ; at the same time I have seen in
other places some intimation, some apprehension of too great
concessions, of a total abandonment of what is called " the
high tone ;" altogether, I am accustomed almost daily to see
myself characterised as pusillanimous, cowardly, mean, das-
tardly, truckling, base.—( A laugh.) I hope I need not say
that I view these appellations with indifference, I view them,
indeed, really with satisfaction; because I know perfectly well
what they mean and how they ought to be and are translated.
I feel perfectly satisfied that these vituperative terms are trans-
lated as applicable to conduct consistent with justice, reason,
moderation, and with common sense, and I therefore feel, as
I said before really not indifferent, but positively satisfied,
when I see such observations.—( Loud cheers. ) I believe I
smt
itn which
y
say,the honour unworthily to hold who felt
that no man ever filed the high situ-
more ardently desirous than I do to preserve to the country
the blessings of peace, or who would be disposed to make
greater sacrifices to maintain it.—( Cheers.) My Lords, I
consider war to be the greatest lolly, if not the giearest
there s the
arelimits which must
not be passed ; and I say that wi:hout attaching
crime, of which a country could be guilty. if lightly entered
into; and I agree with an hon. writer who said, that it a proof
were wanted of the deep and thorough corruptien of human
nature, we should find it in the fact that war itself was some-
times
I:
j sty's
to
duty,Government and I am sure
preservetitirniess ltahwe
pfeualicn—ec-i(i nLaatotuti ohe s Loud cheers.)
-
haeomef re tmere
s.
g to much
weight to questions of honour, for I think, fortunately for this
country, that we need not be very sensitive on these matters—
it is not for us, God knows, to seek the " bubble reputation at
the cannon's mouth," or anywhere else ; our power, our cha-
ranter and position are suet' as to enable us to leek with in-
difference on that of which other count riesenight be perhaps more
jealous—i Cheers)—but our honour is substantially property
that we can certainly never neglect, and most assuredly we
may owe it to ourselves and to our posterity to adept a course
contrary to all our desires—to all our inclinations. My Lords,
from what I have said your Lordships will perceive an earnest
of the spirit of peace which shall pervade this matter, if I con-
tinue to conduct this negotiation ; and I cannot bring myself
to think that at this day any civilised Government would de-
sire to see any other course pursued ; and I hope, therefore,
and fully believe, that we shall have the happiness of seeing
this important question brought to a satisfactory and amicable
eoneluston.—(Lovd cheers.) Should it be otherwise, I can
Only say that we possess rights whioh, in our opinion, are clear
and unquestionable, and, by the blessing of God, and with
pour sup ort, those rights we are fully prepared to main-
tain.—( The Noble Earl resumed his seat amidst loud and
general applause.)
BASTARDY-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion of Lord STANLEY, the order for the Com-
mittee on this Bill, which stood for to.elay, was discharged, and
Monday next was appointed in its stead.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that as it was impossible
for the appeals of those
parties who were aggrieved under this
Bill to be heard at the he trustedth
at
some quarter sessions,
some provision would be made for the payment of their
expenses.

The Earl of CLARENDON—I yesterday, my Lords, gave
notice of my intention to call your Lordships' attention to the
subject of the Oregon territory, in terms which, I fear, have
given rise to a misapprehensiou—nnt because I propose to enter
into the subject or to occupy your Lordships' attention at any
length of time, but because it appeared some time ago to be the
wish of the House, in consequence of a suggestion from the
Noble Duke, that the practice of putting questions to the Go-
vernment in speeches which did not conclude with a distinct
motion should be abandoned. I have no wish to interfere with
any rule your Lordships may make upon the subject.
alo
from
simple mode of obtain-
-ugj h
may .
be romfaetsi m the Government which your Lord-
ships justifiedsonl in asking and the public have a right
Lucn
to expect, whether documents or correspondence may or
may not exist, the production of which, if they do exist,
may or may not be refused. Nevertheless, if my Noble Friend
should prefer, in conformity with what appears to be the rule
of this House, to lay the papers in this case upon the table of
this House, I have no objection. But, whatever course is pur-
sued, I am sure your Lordships feel that we should not be per-
forming our duty if we neglect this opportunity of noticing
the inaugural address of the President of the United
States, and asking from the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs such information as he may think it consistent with his
duty to afford, respecting that portion of the address
which has a direct and immediate bearing upon Britisb in-
terests. With respect to the annexation of Texas, which is
mentioned in this speech of the President, as it may be
said to bear remotely upon British interests, and as our
rights in a case so unprecedented, as well as the obli-
gations contracted by Texas towards us, may not be clearly
defined or understood, I shall not trouble your Lordships
upon this occasion beyond the expression of my surprise
and regret that a body of men so talented and so just
as ordinarily composes the Senate of the United States,
should have given their sanction to a measure which has
been brought about by such means, which will be so deeply in-
jurious to the cause of humanity, and which may, at no distant
time, endanger the peaceful relations of the United States with
our country, by affording to the restless and encroaching people
of Texas an opportunity of gratifying their tastes for esta-
blishing a boundary quarrel, and thus creating a cause of wir
with Mexico, which must be viewed with interest in every
quarter of the world. But it is the Oregon territory with
which we are immediately connected, and it is most important
to know in what position we are to stand in reference to that
territory, and what course her Majesty's Government are pre-
pared to adopt under circumstances which seem but too pro-
bable from the extraordinary language of the President's
address, and from what I may call the studied neglect of that
courtesy arid deferential language which Governments are
wont to observe when publicly treating upon international
affairs. It is almost impossible to believe that any other
country but Americn is interested in the pending negotia-
tions, if we are to draw from the President's speech the in-
ference which naturally suggests itself—for not only does he
make no reference to any other country or negotiation,
hut distinctly informs the United States that their claim to
the Oregon territory is clear and unquestionable. Conse-
quently, my Lords, I do not see on what grounds he could jus-
tify his Government in consenting to a negotiation at all upon
a question which admits of no doubt, because the citizens of
the United States, whatever predilection they may have to
enter into a treaty for what is not their own, have never exhi-
bited any great desire to give up that to which they have an
unquestionable right. Therefore, if the President were to con.
sent, it would seem that it could only be upon the basis of an
unconditional surrender by England of whatever was claimed
by the United States. In fact, my Lords, the whole question
j 5 treated as completely settled ; as if all negotiations were
concluded, or had never been commenced at all. lam sure
that is the only inference which it is possible for persons igno-
rant of the circumstances—and a great majority of the people
of this country are ignorant of them—to draw front the Presi •
dent's speech. On the other hand, it is so impossible for us
to believe that the question has been neglected by her. Majesty's
Government, knowing as they do its importance, and the great
and growing excitement which has prevailed for some time past
in the United States—l say it is so impossible for us to believe
that they would not live used their endeavours to bring about an
amicable and satisfactory adjustment of it, that I am sure my
Noble Friend will be desirous, either by reply to me or by the pro.
duction of such papers as he may think fit, to satisfy the people of
England that their rights have not been abandoned, or their
cause neglected. Both with respect to the past and future, I
think the public are entitled to this information, and it is for
the purpose of obtaining it, and thereby satisfying the great
and natural anxiety that prevails upon the subject, that I
take the liberty of thus trespassing our your Lordships' time.
I do not think this a fitting opportunity for discussing the
justice of the claims of this country to the Oregon territory.
I will, however, say a few words upon it, in order to render
more intelligible the character and extent of the President's
assumption. In the first place, my Lords, if priority of dis-
covery could constitute title, our claim would be unquestion-
able—for Sir F. Drake, when he first visited that country in
1558, found all the land unappropriated, and rook possession
of it, giving it the title of New Albion. Ido not mean to
say that this constitutes a claim, but owing subsequently to a
seizure of British vessels at Nootka, and to a dispute which
arose in consequence, it was arranged by the treaty of the
Escurial that the subjects of the contracting parties should
not be molested in fishing and making settlements in parts
not hitherto occupied. In 1791 the country adjacent to the
Columbia river was taken possession of by Cooke, and was
explored in !813 by the North-Western Company, now
called the Hudson's flay Company, who established them-
selves in Port St. George, under the government of Bri-
tish laws, continuing to the present day, and being the first
establishment in that country of a lawful and national
character, and recognised as such by foreign nations. Now,
the claim of the American Government derives its origin from
the sale of Louisiana by Napoleon in 18')3. Nevertheless, the
boundaries had been distinctly described in 1712, in the reign
of Louis XIV., and in those treaties with the United States,
which had for their objest to define the boundaries of Louisiana,
reference was made to an undefined line running through to the
Pacific, having no precise boundary north or east; but in the
treaty between Spain and the United States in 1818, called
the Florida treaty, this undefined line was defined, and made
to run from the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific in the parallel
of latitude 42 degrees. Stain celed to the United States all
the territory north of that boundary. America then contended
a right to it. although we fwoe
that we bad no right to the territory north of the parallel
latitude of 42 degrees, and that no other e, • t- than Spain bad
by which 3 .91114 WI%
pq2. 1,14 18141 a convention rnseirttakeinnpOYssesSionnf it, in
~ north boundary line was
and the ei44 otgo, by
wh.
theh gned" between this eountty
Axed, and
ifecl t44t t•hs cnnqtri Oeticep

INCO AX-
The Earl of RIPON, in rising to move the second read-
ing of this Bill, said it had been his lot in 1/342 to pro-
pose an Act to their Lordships for the imposition of a tax upon
income. He deemed it then a duty on behalf of her Majesty's
Government to enter into considerable detail to show the
upon the present occasion. But he was
reasons why they proposed it. He did not conceive it was to go to the same extent and variety of explanation
aware that some
means were necessary to induce their Lordships to continue
that tax three years longer. It was not now requisite to
enter
into any lengthened argument to prove that it was unwise and
inexpedient to conduct the business of the country with a de-
ficient revenue. He had on a previous occasion gone into that
subject,at some censideraLla length. The
income-tax, thus showing that it was the only measure which
they deemed calculated to supply the deficiency in the
revenue.—( Hear, hear.) It would be necessary for hint
to state, first, what the condition of the revenue was
before the tax House passed the
was passe'', as compared with the revenue during
the succeeding years. The tax their Lordships were aware,
was passed in 1842, in which
year
revenue to the amount of 2.139,000/. On the sth of April,
1843, they had realised no surplus ; but in 1814, when they
had four complete quarters, the tax produced to Government
the sum of 5,356,0004 giving there was a deficiency in the
a surplus of 2,750,000/. in the
course of the preceding year. If they did not renew this tax, what would be the state of the 'mike Exchequer in 1846 ? In
the year ending the sth April, 1846, the estimated expendi-
ture of the country would be 49,643,0. 0/., including all the
supplies voted for the use of the army and navy. The ordi-
nary revenue of the country, supposine they did not renew the
income-tax, would, amount to 47,900,000/., so that al.r
would be a deficiency in 1841; of 1,740; 00/. Against that
sum there was to be set two quarter receipts from the
property-tax, which would amount to 2,600,0004
There would al,o be a sum of 600,0901. which they I
expected to receive in the course of the prevent year I
from China. If, however, they added these sums to the ordi- I
nary revenue of April 1846, there would be a surplus, sup-
posing
no change took place, of 1,200,0001. Bat from what
he had stated it vr,turi be seen that that surplus would entirely
be owing to the amount to be deduced for the income-tax in t he
course of the pre ent year, and the 600,000:, to conic trim
China,consequently in the following year. supooSing" the pro.,
perty ta x to diScontinue, and there was an
erase In the &dinars, receipts of the 9nuutre or a Considerable
Rfsll-ittjtm in the Alic elpenditure, ,that they woad And the '
extranrdinary in-
e t

same deficiency in the revenue in 1847, which existed in 1842.
The effect of renewing this tax would he to give the public
exchequer in April 1846, a !mesh'. revenue of 4,560,000/ ,
which would enable the Government now to remove
certain burdens, which at the present moment pressed
with great severity upon the prosperity of the country. They
proposed to remove all duties imposed on raw materials, with
thPexception of timber, and they did so with the view of enabling
the British manufacturer to compete with foreigners ateerad.
The Noble Lord then went through the various articles upon
which the duty is to be taken off. commenting as he went
along upon those which he thought most important. In respect
to glass, it might he asked why they did not choose soap in-
stead of this article; but, for his part, he confessed they could
not well do without the amount of duty levied on soap, while the
removal of the duty on glass would open a wide field for the
operation of the manufactures of the country. The amount of
duty proposed to be taken off was 6,000/. Then came the ar-
ticle of cotton wool, the duty upon which amounts to 650,000/,
This they proposed to take off, as well as to make
a reduction in the duty o; sugar to the extent of 130,0001.
This would undoubtedly reduce the price of sugar, and
place it within the reach of those who had never been
able to enjoy it before. These, and other reductions, when
deducted from the 4,000,000/. would still leave a surplus of
890,000/. It might be objected that these reductions would
result in making these imposts permanent taxes, but he
thought the experience of the past justified the belief that the
commercial affairs of the country would be so improved as to
enable them to discor.tinue the tax at the end of three years.
If they looked back they would find that not only had the
national debt been reduced, within the last three years, front
29,452,000/. to 28,365,000/. but that the value of our imposts h d
increased by no less than 5,895,000/. Now, all this convinced
him that at the end of three years they would be in e position
to dispense with both the income and property-tax. The pros-
pect of commercial prosperity was such, if they might judge of
the steady progress of the last few years, as to bear them out in
the supposition they had just expressed. Without referring to
the two great subjects of reduetion further, and for a moment
only touching upon wool and timber, he would lay before the
House a few statements of what might be considered the minor
articles which had been affected by the reduction of 184:1 The
first he would take was coffee, and be would state the gradual
increase which had been experienced in the consumption of
that article during the lest five years. In 1840, the consump-
tion had been, according to the Cus'otn-house reports,
28,664,00011e5. ; for 1841, it was 28,370,000 lbs, ; for 1842,
28,593,0001b5. In 1843, 29,979,0001b5. In 1844, 31,294,000
lbs. Showing an increase of upwards of 2,700,0001ba. And be
would observe, that in 1g42 the greatest quantity of coffee had
been consumed which had ever been known during any pre-
vious period. There was another article, which perhaps many
of their Lordships had never yet seen—(A laugh)—but he had
had an opportunity of not only seeing, but using it, and had
found it both nutritious and palatable, he meant chiccory.
Their Lordships might smile, but it was well known that in
France coffee was seldom used without a dash of chiccory.
He did not mean to say, that the coffee might not be
as well without it, but the introduction of chiccory reduced
the expense, and did not in the least degree affect the aroma.
The introduction of ebiecnry in 1840 was 1,440,000 lbs. ; in
1841, 1,921,000 lbs. ; in 1842, 2,268,000 lbs. ; in 1843,
2,448,000 lbs, ; and in 1844, 3,164,000 lbs. Cocoa also, which
was an article of much request in some ranks of society, had in,
creased 2,596,0001b5. within the last five years. New it might
be supposed that the increase of these articles might have been
made at the expense of tea, which was used fur si-
milar purposes as the articles he had just
named. But what was the fact ? In 1840 the
quantity of tea introduced was 32,250,000 lbs. In
1841, 36.675,0001b5. In 1842, 37,353,0001b5. In 1843.
40,293,0001b5.; and in 1844, 41,366,0001b5., showing an in-
crease in 1845 of no less than 4.7'22 0001bs., since- the time
that the reduction took place, and not less then one-fourth of
the whole quantity that had been computed, if ths whole five
were to be taken into consideration. As might naturally be
expected, there had been a corresponding increase in the can.
sumption of sugar. Not only had the comfort of the people
been added to, but there had been a great advantage ob. ained
in obviating the adulteration of this article, which had been long
effected by all sorts of articles. It shou'd be remembered that
this was an increase in consumption, accompanied by no arti-
fice, without any undue extension of the currency, and indeed
in the face of a law which had been passed for restraining t e
amount, and which had effectually secured it from any deitre-
eietion in its value. It was evident, therefore, that tc!is was a
solid increase, and that they might rely—and they 'might safely
rely—on the increase of the Customs' duties for enabling them
'o do away, at the end ef three years, with this obj tctinnsble
end most ungracious tax. He, therefore, thought he might
safely call upon their Lordships to consent to the third reading
of the Bill.
On the motion that the Pill be read a third time,
The Marquis of L A NSDOWNE said there were three
-easons whic'e weul•l justify the imposition of ate income-tax—
ha existence anti long continuance of a formidable war, the
.tell greater importance of inter ice commotion and civil broil,
and the third, a defieiency in the revenue, which they had ne
ether means to supply. It was on the first of these reasons
that 111 r. Pitt, Lord Grenville, and Lord Seymour, had intro-
duced it. It was on the third that Sir Robert Peel had pro-
:rosed it to Parliament in 1842. He saw no reason to hope,
even from the statement of his Noble Friend, that they would
be able to !emit the tax at the end of the three years. He
feared, indeed, there was some ulterior reason fir the proposi-
tion of the tax, and that it was intended to substitute this system
of taxation for that indirect mode which had hitherto prevailed.
He found, upon the statement of the Government, that the
revenue, with the arrears of the property-tax, would be fifty-
nine millions. He disclaimed any desire to stint the public
service of the country. He did not complain of the increase of
estimates for the public service. He would be still le-s dis-
posed to refuse any grant of public money far the support of
that arm of the public service, the navy. There was a pro-
position of the Government which gave him unqualified plea-
sure—that was the increased grant for the education of the
Catholic priesthood in Ireland. He looked with entire satis-
faction upon the measures which the Government had adopted
to release industry. Still, as he thought, Ministers ought to be
sincere in their declaration that the property-tax was only
temporary, they should at the same time take measures which
would enable them to repeal it. One of the great objections
of the present Prime Minister to the repeal of the malt-tax
was, that it would lead to the imposition of a property-tax in
time of peace. In seven years afterwards the same Right Hon.
Baronet, being at the head of the most powerful party in the
country, declared that he would not attempt to make up the
deficiency of the revenue by the imposition of a property-tax.
He did not agree with the Prime Minister in thinking that
there were not other means by which the deficiageLesViity,
, made upK;ni,t opposite, that there were
persons who called themselves " philosophers," and who
" liked " this tax on account of its equality. But he
would ask their Lordships could they imagine anything
more unequal than the operation of this tax ? The
tax was imposed upon persons whose income depended
almost entirely upon their state of health. Was it just to
subject them to the same amount of taxation as persons who
derived their income from fixed property? Again, if he came
to the funds, he might ask were all the persons who had pro-
perty in the funds to be dealt with alike ? The mere fact that
a certain amount of property stood in a man's name in the
books at the bank was not sufficient to show that he enjoyed
that property. So also was it with respect to landed property.
The declared income of a man from landed property was not a
fair index of his means of paying taxes.--( Hear, hear.) He
would not deny that in direct taxation there
was this advantage, that every man would know what
he was contributing to the necessities of the State. But the
difficulties in the way of justly apportioning an income-'ax
were not to be obviated by any scheme which he had ever
heard propounded. H. would not propose the entire rejection
of the Bill, which, however, he looked upon, after all, s a Bill
for ultimately taxing labour ; but he hoped their Lordships
would modify its pressure. He would not object so strongly to
the Bill, as a temporary measure, if he saw it accomeaseed by
other measures which would enable the Government to des-
pense with it at the end of three years.—( Hear.) It had been
said that this tax was popul ir. Hut there had been no proof
that it was popular except with those who had not to pay it.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) He did not believe that the country
would le reconciled to the tax, and he hoped that Parliament
' would find the means of inducing the Government to abandon
it at the end of three years.
Lord ASfe RUA ros said that the present discussion af-
ford d him an • pportunity of stating the grounds upon which
hehal the misfortune to differ with the must prominent mem-
bers of both parties in Parliament and the ceuntry. He, how-
ever, agreed with the Noble Lord who had just sat down in
condemning the income-tax as a permanent impost. lie re-
ferred to a passage in the books of NB-. MtCulloch, in which
that eeenomic philosopher had shown that it would be great in-
justice to subject income from land to a peculiar tax, as that
would be a bar to al! improvement. Capital was the chief in-
gredient in the improvement of a nation, and any tax upon ca-
pital—whether that capital was represented la) land or by raw
material of any other kind—or engaged in commerce—was
inevitably a check upon improvement. He agreed
with the Noble Lord opposite, that a tax upon income
should only be resorted to in times of great emergency.
—( Hear, hear.) In the whole of the financial arrangemerts
of the Government the great matter which he regi etted was
their inattention to the debt of the country. That was the
great incubus upon the ineustry of the country. Surly it
should have been the duty of the Government—of every succeed-
ing Government—to relieve the country from that heavy
weight. Whilst the debt remained in its present amount,
what resource would the country have if a war arose ? Nothing
cold be done but borrow.—( Hear, and a laugh.) The country only do as Falstaff did in the tavern—" score up." For
his part he should never feel comfortable unless he saw some
tax imposed for the purpose of grappling with the debt. That
was a comfort which, at his time of life, he could scarcely hope
to enjoy.—( A laugh.) He had. however, great happiness in
saying that, in the whole course of hislong life, he had never seen
the country in a happier state of quiet and comfort. There was not
a speck in the horizon, except in the small territory of Oregon.
—( A laugh.) Yet, he could not but express his regret that
nothing was done to get rid of the debt. He would not deny
that the sinking fund had failed to a great extent of its object,
but it ought to have been sustained as a means of reducing the
amount of the debt, and of facilitating the system of borrowing
if a reso.l to that system should become necessary. This
was,
a year of unexampled prosperity Nothing could be a greater
mistake than to suppose that the laws of any Government
can
r
prevent those alterations which will assuredly ever he experi-
enced in commercial .affairs. With respect to the batik'hg
measures for which his Noble Friend had taken so mue h
he thought that they might possibly have done no h ere
his great objection was to the disposal of the
etutplaursTa'edl3ll,l thought the better plan would be to preveqt en'y Sgeplea at ae
f per.
Lord STANLEY said that he thought that his Noble Friend
had hardly done justice to the efforts which had beep
made by her Majesty's Government
had complained that his Right HO'llsQUNralbti: IfFrrileenndd
at the head of the Treasury had made dul relief for
the pressure of the debt. It might be true that no actual re-
duction in the amount of the debt had made place, but the in-
terest of the debt in 18`28 was upwardsndhereeh
wasthere w
equal
to
32,000,000/„ and
4s
now it was only 28,000,000/. ; a
tion of not less than 4,000,000/ , reduc-
whi
than 1,000,000/. Yet this was
opt tit all, for by a burdainenntwlietss
h
which they had saddled themselves now for the benefit of
the future, in 1854, by the cessation of the terminable
annuities, there would be a reduction of above 650,0001 in
the annual interest. In 1864 there would be a reduction fur-
ther by the cessation of the loonngidanbnuities of above 1.2ft0 000/.
a year ; and is, 1865 there w
of above 200,00N.a a still further reetuction
a year, and he thought that this was a re-
duction which went very ar reduce the debt. But his
Noble Friend had said that hgeeladt4noobjection to a surplus at
?resent, but he did object to the imposition of that tax by
which the surplus was created. Why it was a fact well
known, that his Right Honoarable Friend at. the
lead of the Government had clearly shown that,
without the income •tax. instead
plus, there
would, in 1846, absolutely beadefinf u
i ciercy.s—ur(ll ear. ) It
wss evident that a surplus of 3,.000 0001. or 4,000,000/. was
neeessary. The Nei* Mg•
c sQPl'asite objected to the im.
Pelitien of this tax. becau saidad that he had an objection to
titter imposition of this tax, set he wished that there
shod(' be no deficiency, that they might not have to say,
cs were up hostess." Why the very first object which tliste had in view in the imposition of
fthis tax was t;,. pea cad the
scree which the Government, e
Marquis
was a member, haq run usury "eiettist.nre2l6thi:y had not
oils been Ale to pay off that se to the tune of 70e,e00/. I
a tyeir, but at the sante timseototoirigaer:atnht.vely large relief to the
c weierce of the coun•ry.
Marauis so grievously cerepleisiect ofs to;, which the No6k '
enabled there
crieasie the conthmrieri; anii 4 the sarae s ro
tuut, •
; check the

nOUSE OF COMMONS, April 4.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.
The Newcastle-on-Tyne Coal Tura
Shots Road Bill, the Gla.-
81:i, the Timm,—
the

criu, the Olasgnw and
Bridges Bill, the York Road
.-eaterworks Bill, the rt. Helen's Canal Bill,
-‘. rtelen's Improvement Bill, the Blackburn Waterworks
Bill, the Dublin an Drogheda Railway Bill, the Wolverhamp-
ton Waterworks Bill,
,the Enniskillen and Dundalk Railway

smuggler by remitting duties, which raised the article of tea, r Bill, and the Harrogate and Ripon Junction Railway Bill, were
for instance, to a price which induced the contraband teyerelly read a second time.
introduction of it. The cousumesien of that ariicie had Mr. T. EU:. ren‘ine. gave mei: • leas re should. on the'
increased fully cue-fourth within the last five years. Again, motion for the third reading of the last of these Bids, mow if they took the article of tobacco, they would find that the that it be rend a third time that day s'x moeths.
reduction of the duty upon tobacco had led to a very large in- LIVERPOOL AND BURY RAILWAY.
crease in the consum ,feen of the article. In 1842 the quantity I The Bill for this railway was brought is and read a first
introduced was 3,448:001,1b5. ; in 1843 it was 3,605 0001bs. ; time, on the motion of the Earl of LISTOWEL,
and in 1844 it was 3,863,0001bs So that it appeared the im- SPARROWS HERNE ROAD.
position of this tax had enabled them largely to relieve the The Bill for this road was read a third time and passed.
trade of the country. They proposed no less a reduction than LOWESTOFT RAILWAY AND HARBOUR.
3,800,0001., and the Noble Lord himself had stated that a This Bill was read a mond time, and ordered to be corn •
better selection of articles on which to remit duty could not be mitted.
made than that they had adopted. In the price of sugar they
had effected a larger reduction than was contemplated in the
celebrated scheme of the Noble Lord opposite. He had not
heard any one complain that the entire teductien of the duty
on Wass had given a. great stimulus to the manufacture. H
they had not taken the ditty off glass the manufacture would
year by year have gradually decreased, and the duty upon it
could not have been relied upon as a source of revenue- ;le
had not heard, even in the daily papers or anYwh" else, still
less in their Lordship's House, that the relief which they had
7
granted was cue which would 1106 It7gely tend to promote
the commerce of the country teed promote the con-
sumption and the comfort of the people.—( Hear. )
Another important tese whieh had been passed over by the
Noble Lord '.-ersa the 600,0001, imposed on the importation of
raw eetton, Was there a more objectionable tax than that? It
pressed heavily on the manufacturer, and its removal had long
been looked for by the country. Well, then, without the im-
position of an income-tax the Government cou'd never have
ventured upon these important financial changes. It was
said, that the tax w-a popular with those who did not pay it,
but those who spoke in those terms forgot that all our former
systems of taxation had reached their maximum, and those
upon whom they were imposed were unable to bear them.
Were the Government to blame, then, for removing the
burden of the chief taxes to those who were well able to
bear them ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis had
said that the property-tax was not nniy grossly unjust in
principle but grossly unequal of its operations Why,
where could they find a tax which was not in enme respects
unequal in its operation? All taxation rrlynt bear differently
upon those who have -a permanent and those who hive only a
temporary interest in property, and in these two instances he
could hardly see how the tax could operate with any great
degree of inequality. If the tax were raised now to remove a
debt some tenor twenty years hence he should agree with the
Noble Marquis in thinking it was partial and unjust to tax an
annuitant, but where the tax was made to meet the current
expenses of the current year, and levied upon the current
income of an individual, he could not comprehend
the argument which went to show that the tax was either
unequal or partial in its operation. At all events, he should
sit down convinced that a property-tax was the best and the
most equitable which they could impose upon the nation, for
removing what appeared to him to be a permanent deficiency
in the revenue.
Lord MONTEAGLE reminded their Lordships that, when
the nati.mal debt was contracted, the assessed property of the
country amounted to 56,000,000/. Since then it had increased
to 186,0e0,, 00/. ; and they were now about to tax parties to
meet the charges of a debt, from which those parties
had never derived any interest.—(Hear.) He had heard
many ingenious calculations, based upon the resources of this
country, but he was convinced of this, the resourcea of the
country had never been greater whether in a time of war or
peace than they were now. He was inclined to praise some of
the selections which the Government had made in the articles
upon which they proposed to remove the duty. The article
of glass was a very important one, and he had no
doubt great benefits would result to the country from the re-
movel of the tax hitherto imposed upon it. But they were
net to discuss a property-tax in a commercial point of view.
It was in a financial point of view they must examine into it,
and he must say, looking at it in this light, it was founded upon
a fallacious and dangerous doctrine which was calculated to
cause gnat mischief out of doors if not to jsopardise the peace
of the country. There never was a more needless sacrifice of
revenue than the giving up of the auction duties. The sacri-
fice hail not been called for. How could it be expected that
the re, eal the excise duties would promote consumption so
much as to compensate for the Losses to the revenue? The Go-
vernnaeet of a tut ore day would be compelled to yield to the
demands of the country. He believed that the labstirers of the
country were as much .ntereeted in opposing this tax as the
richest and most fully endowed. When he com-
pared the estimates of the ytar le3n, under the
same rime Minister, with the estimates of the present year,
he coil'd not help stating that no good reason had been given
' for the increase. With respect to the sugar duties, he could
see no reason for the measures of the Government. All the
authorities , f any value upon the question, were aoainst the
aigunients allsged by the Government in favour of its own
measure. With reseect to sugar you lose a million and a
had ; the President of tne Board of Trade stated the sum of
two mill ons The very classification, the very system, was
adeptee feint the paper prepared by Mr. Hume, which had been
called a rigmarole paler. They lost by the timber ditties up-
wards of 600,0001., and by the sugar that which made
up a loss of two millions and a half. The way in which they
had dealt with corn had diminished their resources. In corn,
sugar, and tit ber, there appeared to be a fatality ; and it
seemed by the pamphlet which Air. Gladstone had written,
that there was a reduction of one-half the amount of duty.
He was quite prepared to discuss the question as one of
ecouomteal science, and he thought that on that principle the
Government had mistaken the course they ought to pursue.
Lord ASHBURT‘ ,N said, his Noble Friend had not an-
swered his objection, for be thought the principle of a
sinking fund, or that which was equivalent to a sinking fund,
was the diminution of the principal, and not merely the in-
terest of a debt.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that he did not object an
much to the vote, as to the appropriation of the funds which
are to be supplied by it. His Noble Friend had allotted, that
he was totally ignorant of the nature of some of the items in
the list of duties which he was prepared to 'reduce. Now, he
thought, that if reduction were to be made, it ought to be
made in some of the articles in which benefits
would accrue to the agricultural interests.—( Hear.)
But what did they do? They imposed a rate upon a farmer,
so that if he had 300/. a year rent, they taxed him after the
rate of obtaining 150/. profit—but what was the case? An in-
dividual who had last year had an interview with Sir Robert
Peel, had stated that, in 1843, he had lost 600/., and in 1844
he had lost 700/. He was assured that the distress in the
country had been occasioned by the measures of the last threes
years. The Right Hon...lle2rst had -
• 0R net the
interest—wnti. be taken care
I,ll—but' he would be grad to know what wouldld be the opinion
now, if the country were called upon to express it. One thing
surprised him, that every body talked against the Bill, but
every one resolved to vote for it. This was very strange,
• but still it was a fact, that without the tax they
would not have the surplus which appeared requisite for the
necessities of the country.
Lord BROUGHAM complained that the debate had been a
most weariso.rie one, and he thought it was a bad system to
use so many figures in speaking of a subject like this. He had
waited an hour and a half in anticipation of this debate, but
they had heard all about everything but the precise point in
question. It reminded him of an anecdote of a great states-
man, who had expended, like all other Chancellors and ex-
Chancellors of the Exchequer;a great deal of labour in getting
together a series of calculations, and he went to Lord Lauder-
dale, who advised him to throw his figures altogether over-
board, just as he would throw physic to the dogs. The Noble
ex-Chancellor was, of course, in an agony of disappointment,
but still the advice was good, and if it had been followed, it
might have saved a goon deal e f the wearisomeness of this
debate. He must say that, notwithstanding the objections to
this tax, still he was prepared to vote for it, as he had
• done in the first instance for the fist three years on
the ground of necessity ; and in the second instance on the
ground of something very like necessity. In the abstract, and
indeed in practice, there were great objections to the impo-
sition of a property-tax, especially for a permanency. That
there were objections also to in iirect taxes, he was perfectly
aware ; any attempt to press upon the mean. of consumption
must press upon the etjeyments of those classes to whom the
comforts thus restricted were everything. Yet. notwiths end-
ing this. he still deemed it necessary to refute the supposition
that this tax, or indeed, any direct tax, could fall equally rd
prop, rty. It was one of the essential elements of preperty
that it shoned be cies-yeah and he thought that when the idle-
ginat ien of his Nob'e Friend was 'teemed to be active, it would
riot be a bed plan if he were to call his ju cement into his aid to
renderhislucubrationsasusefulasthedetaitofth m was effective,
He regretted that Mr. Pitt did net take, in the time of the
war, long annuities, instead of contracting an almcnt lasting
debt. If that had been done the entnitry would not new have
been in such a condition as to render either an income or a
property-tax necessary. Improvements might be introduced
into the Bill ueder discussion, but he thought the country
would bear the it convenience of the measure in its present
state, fully relying upon the inteniion of Govern-
ment to discontinue it at the expiration of three years.
'1 he country he was convinced would never object to an income-
tax in a time of war, or when large funds were required to de-
f -nd its honour. But God forbid that the present peace should
be disturbed ; but knowing the frailty and vicissitudes of hu-
manity, he could not conceal from himself that a time might
come when it might be necessary for the country in defence of
its rights or its honour to resort to arms, and then he was
satisfied the people would cheerfully pay hot onlyan
income-tax, amounting to three, but to ten per
cant.
He trusted that the sentiments he had sees in the President's
message would be repudiated by the American people; but if
they were not, he relied upon cd a British Government's adopt-
ing measures to vindicate the national honour, and they might
depend upon England contributing a liberal income and pro-
perty-tax to aid them in doing so. Should, however, no extra-
ordinary steps be necessary, it was the duty of Government to
nkeeceepsstahreytatox
cdotrwoninause mitucaht atshepoesszilb,ilrea;thenndosfhothueld f-,nd
such modifications ought to be introduced into it years,
it less inquisitorial and less
painful to the. .great would make
body of the
people.
The Marquis of NORMANIre.- had strong objections to the
continuance of the propene- et tax, because sanctioning it a
second time looked ye:J.-fetich like making it a permanent tax.
At the terminatio:: Of the Chinese war, it was held out to them
that the increase it would occasion to the commerce of the
country wonla 'nave the effect of removing the income and
propertve'raxes, and he could see no reason why this principle
ebeeald not be now fulfilled. He did not think that the other
deductions of taxation were equivalent to the increase of impost
upon this tax. He, therefore, opposed the proposition of the
Government, and would say "non-content."
The Earl of RADNOR would also say "non-content" to
the imposition of this tax, because it was unequal, unjust, and
inquisitorial, in its operation. He contended that, in all
seesons of agricultural depression, the laws were chiefly in
fault. He objected to the tax because it was unjust and
oppressive. He would not object to an income-tax if it were
fairly apportioned. He did not think that it could be so. But
he was convinced that it c said not be brought forward in a
more objectionable shape than the present.
The Duke of RICHMOND moved an amendment, as a
rider to the Bill, " that, in the even', of farmers suffering a loss
through a bad harvest, they should have a power of appeal
against the assessment of the tax.
Lord STANLEY thought the Noble Lord's proposition un-
reasonable, because it was impossible to make such distinction.
The Duke of RICHMOND would rather have the inquisitorial
power than the real loss. He objected that they were obliged
to ascertain their losses, and he thought it very hard if a man
incurred a loss that he should pay as if it wete profit. He
would not divide the House upon it, because he thought it
would be useless to do so. Yet he knew that it was competent
for them to alter a money bill, and, with the present power of
the Government, he was convinced that the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Treasury would be very well able to
make any alteration he pleased in the Bill.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he agreed with
the Noble Duke that this was the csowning iniquity of the
Bill ; and though he was among the non-ccatents of the Bil he would not divide the He-use on this occasion.
The areeedrnent was then put and negatived.
The Bill was then read a third time, and passed; and their
Lordships adjourned at a quarter to Twelve o'clock.

GRANT TO MAYNOOTH,
Mr. Parnell, rlrotherton, Mr. Hamilton, Col. Actc oellr. Aali.,nby, 73r, Stuart Wortley, Mr. Mr. Diver,
Mr. Palmer, Dr- Ito'Aring, and several other Hon. Mainlies
pr, served titims from various places, against any addiCpual
grant ...I)Maynootb.

CHURCH EDUCATION.
Mr. BATESON presented a petition from the eMunty of
Derry, in favour of the grant for Church education iQ Ireland.
JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.
Dr. 130 W RING pre,ented a petition from thg Unitarians of
Bolton in favour of this Bill, nod praying the House nut to
throw impediments in its way, hut to still further extend the'
spirit of toleration which had dictated it.

SAWYERS.
Mr. SPOONER presented a pattliop from the sawyers of ffit•
mingham complaining of the preset)._ system of importing Lica'
America, in'o this country, read";-eut boards, free of duty, and
praying the House to appe;.nt a select committee to iu quire
into its operation upon tl e operative sawyers of the couv:try.
Mr. CO L. VI E presented several petitions from Dw.hysbirg'
against the grant the College of Maynooth.
The Steneeturch Road Bill was read a second time.

MEDICAL BILL.-
Mr. MANGLES said that he presented a petition last ragv
frc,'.n a numerous body of medical practitioners in several 4.xtele*
in Surrey, praying for some alteration in the Medical Reform
Bill introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary OL,
State for the Hume Department. He wished to prat the House
in possession of the motives by which these gentlemen were
actuated.

The SPEAKER said the Hon. Gentleman was clearlf
out of order in attempting to refer to petitions when there WO
nu debate.

Mr. MANGLES said that if he were prevented from stet'
ing the opinions of those for whom he had acted, he wouldbeg
to give notice that he should move certain amendments on the
Medical Reform Bill in Committee..
'AIAYNOOTH.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE presented two petitions against
any increase in the grant to the College of Maynooth. They
were numerously signed, and were untainted by any spirit et
exclusiveness; but they deemed that any ecctesiastical esti;
blishment was an unconstitutional imposition, and they pray
the House to mooity or reduce the grant.
Air. HINDLEY said he had presented several pe,titioeo
against the grant to Maynooth last night, ;lid he now/ hed,t:
present seventy more. He would not trouble the House e4'112
reading the titles of these petitions, for he did not expect the,
would be of the amaliest avail, but he conceivwd that it ical
necessary to present them in order to put thi'a House in
session of the feelings of the country. The parties who h
signed these petitions we'e not induce?, by any disposition to
the " No Popery " cry, but because they conscientiously be"
Iteved that any State support to ecclesiastical establisbroentt
was bad in principle.

RAILNYAYS.
Mr. STUART WORTLEN , seeing the Honourable
Member for Oxford in his place, 13( aged to ask him when tbel
might expect a notificatitin of the selection of Committees lee
railways, and in what order they meant to classify the Bills.
Mr. EsTcoUCIT said that the day on which the *House se'
parated before the recess, the 20th of March, was the vett
earliest day on which any decision could be come to. It some:
c iurse clear that some consideration was required after the Hods:
met again before the result of that decision could be declare°
But he expected that the last would appear in the vo'ces
morrow morning. With regard to the second portion of the
Hon. Member's question, it was impossible to say in what Ws/
the Bills would be classified, for their order must depend 011
the busines of the
AYS AND THE BOARD OF TRADE.
air. JUNCO: IBE gave notice that, on Ttrzsday next,
would (.ali att, mein to the Railway Department of the B°
of Tr.ide, with a view of preventing their inflicting fue.Der
injory on both public and private interests.
On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL a return of the, number
of apprentices who have attended at each of the re:hools este
Wished in her Majesty's dock yards, during the year end
December 31, 1644, was agreed to.
NEW ZEALAND.

Under Secretary for the Conies if 'se: had any objectiongo
Mr. FOSTER asked the Hononre.:ble Gentleman th,6o
received from New Zealand on e'ne Ist inst.lav on the tante of the House th e Government dispatcn
Mr. HOPE thought the P.ouse would agree with him
these dispatches were for the information of Govern;
t;:
went and not for the information of Parliament. At e
same time, however, 'ne could state that these dispatches we
r,
all ready, and he !rad no objection to lay such parts of there ei"
the table as the house might wish to see.
RAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION (SC
LAND) BILL.
tit°
Mn. LABOUCHERE wished to call the attention ofe..._ct
Lord Advocate te a report which had gone abroad, to the I.!,
that the Learned Lord had allowed an Hon. Member to esai
' clause to the Railway Clauses Consolidation Bill of Scotland;.
without giving any previous notice of its nature, and at a Si%
when the Bill was in its last stage, and there pas
necessarily but a small attendance of, Members i
House. When he mentioned what the clause s- ;
he thought the House would agree with him, thatit7,
one of considerable importance. The provision was no Jrt.
than this—that every future railway to be constructed in sefo,
land, should give an indemnity or guarantee to the landed prix
prietors of Scotland for any loss they might s teb,
,
through any turnpike-road being affected by
ei
construction of the line. It had created consid
excitement in Scotland ; and he wished to know whether t-
he
facts he had stated were correct?
The LORD ADVOCATE said the clause was similar to
one introduced into the Bill relating to England, and h did
not think the Committee had sanctioned any unusual or ne.lu
clause. MR. MA Z ZINI.
• Sir C. NAPIER .sib'4.6 4a in the
a statement .
;emit newspaper declaring positively that Mr. Mazzini bar
nothing at all to do with that order for the murder at Red";
which was alleged by the Right Hon. Secretary for the Hale'
Department to have been signed by him. It appeared froll
the statements in the paper that the order was a forgery,
a°,
that Mr. Alazzini was not in France at the time the order se:
made. He wished, therefore, to ask the Right Hon. Barone:
if he stiil maintained his charge, or whether he was prepares'
to follow the example of the Hon. Member for ShrewsburiP
and make an apology to Mr. Mazzini ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that the Hon. and Gallant Officer.
was not so obliging as to give him any notice of his intention
to put such a question. He should have thought that he went"/
have observed the ordinary rule of the House in such a naatter••
But, as that rule had net been observed, he could scarcely _
expected to answer the question now. However, he would
this, that he had seen letters written by Mr. Mazzini, to r,hiels
the question of the Hon. and Gallant Officer referred ; and be
(Sir J. Graham) last night laid upon the table of the_ House,
by command of her Majesty, certain papers which bore di'
rectly upon this question. The House would remember that,,
when he was making his statement to it upon this question'
he said distinctly that part of the accusation agaizest Mr. Mar
zini did not reit on official information, but on certain letter"'
which be ( Sir J. Graham) held in his hand,__( H.) He had heard that it was the intention of Mr. Mazzieniar, tohenr pro'
secure the Moniteurnewspaper for an alleged libel contained ie
that payer, but that he did nee follow it up; and Irts had all°
heard that Mr. Mazzini died take an action against another
paper for the sane, and that he had not succeeded 10
proving the allegation. But he told the lion. Member for
Finsbury that he had never seen those letters or papers, and,
therefore, could rot tell what the nature of the accusation wag-
-( Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) really knew nothing"
nioee of the subject than this and what he had already stated.,
except that he had heard that the accusation in the Moniteur
was ill-funded ; but he should now say he was bound to state
that i.e old oat feel jurtitien in declaring that there eves no
foundation for ;he charge ageinst Mr. Mazzini.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
Mr. VILLIERS begged to know when it was Pee intention
of the Right Gen. Baronet opposite to introduce! the Bill for
the propo-ed increased grant to Maynooth ? The reason be
asked the question was because he had heels requested bY a
large body of Dissentora to put off the seecond reading of the
Bill tor a 'ortnight.
Sir R. PEEL said that, in conrequence of the resolution of
the Hume in Loromittee last nis.,'ot, in favour of the Bill, Mr'
Greene had received directisens to prepare it; and the House-
then fixed upon Friday neezt as the day upon which the second/
,
reading of that Bill should take place, and it would, therefore,
receive a second eeading on that day.—(Opposition cheers!)
Mr. PLUM
:•TRE said he was requested to inquire wit/ether
the time f.':/r the second reading of the Bill might not 'be ex-
tender'• .ts 2
• bey or; Friday next .
LORD ASH BURTON AND LORD, J. RUSSELL.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he wined to ask a question
of the Hon. Gentleman, the Under 'secretary of the Colonies,
on a subject which was persoreet to himself. He had seen
within the last few hours a s asement, purporting to have been
made hy Lord Ashburton;fith regard to a speech made by his-
( Lord John Russell) r:4l a late occasion. He would say, in
first place, the'
(l'at f:.tendship existed between him and Lord Ash
Burton, 72.tich friendship began when that Noble*
Lord and himself were of the same opinions is
Pffetics—( Hear, hear, and a laugh)—and that the difference
, which had taken place in their political opinions heed not
interrupted the cordiality with which they always met to-
gest. er whenever it was his good fortune to meet that Noble
Lord, and that nothing was further from his wish,
in - the discharge of his public duty, than to
say anything personally unkind of that Noble Lord.
—(Hear.) In the course of the discussion on the navy
estimates a discussion, quite unexpected by him, arose with
regard to the treaty concluded by Lord Ashburton with
America. That discussion was introduced by his Noble Friend•
near him, and, in consequence of what had fallen from :her
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he (Lord John Russell) hat/. '
referred to a matter which he conceived to be correctly stateti,
as far as his recollection on the subject served. lie had
said that he thought it was advisable there should be
some arrangement made by which the forces of Great
Britain and America should occupy a certain position, which
Fshooruld be the boundary between the two States.
that purpose he had instructed Lord Sydenham to carry on negotiations with that object, with the con-
currence of his Noble Friend the Member for Tiverton.
Lord Sydenham informed him in his answer that he could not
obtain from Mr. Webster any terms other than terms by which
that part of the 'Madawaska settlement on the right bank of the
river St. John should be occupied by the two Powers. It was,
clear that Lord Ashburton supposed he (Lord J. Russell) s'je
luded to negotiations for a permanent settlement of the bound? xy,
whereas—and be thought it was sufficiently clear from wit' et he
had said—he only alluded to a provisional arrangement to be
made between the two Governments. If it was teje intention
of the Government to carry on any diplomatire negotiations,
they would, of course, be carried on by k...'55 Noble Friend,
and not himself, as the Noble Lord retest have known.
All he wished to know was, if the Hon. Gentleman the instructiom; which he (Lord .
Under-
Secretary for the Colonies, had ren:eieed a copy of any
Lord Syderilsam, and his answer to him ? He
Yeohn Russell) gave to
spike at the moment from en answer
and did not anticipate
totally mistaken the who/ a discussion on what he they, stated ; but the Noble Lord had
ham could have made
transaction, for that Lord Syden-
J• Russell observations seemed to him ( Lord
imposs;.'ole. He wished to ask the Right Hon.
S.Gentlemanßu sell)to pro'auce the documents he had in reference to
this subject.
Mr. HOPE said he was not aware that the Noble Lord in-
tended to put this
search for else question. He would, however, make every
papers to which the Noble Lord referred.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL inquired if a correspondence had
taken place in respect to a provisional arrangement between.,
the Colonial-office and Lord Sydenham?
Mr. HOPE said there bad been a correspondence wit:b
rf,:;,,et to the disputed territory,
Mr. HUME said that all dispatches connected wit),4 this
dispute ought to I e laid on the table of the House.
8 r ROBERT PEEL said, if the documents conidie pre.
sewed without any injury to the public service, he had no ob-
objection to !nen. pi:dm:two ; but this matter having been
settled hi tit eon this country and the United States, he did not
see why they should be produced. He did not think any
public object would be answered by their production, but if the

Noble Lord wished for any particular paper; which could be
produced without detriment. a e Lave thee".
BRAZILS.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to ask a question of the
Right Hon. Baronet on the subject of the present state of our
relations with the Brazils. It was well known that we
had had a commercial treaty with that country which
had expired in the month of November last. Under the
provisions of the treaty British subjects residing in the
Brazils were entitled to certain privileges, which were not pos-
sessed by the Brazilians, in reference to the disposal of their
property by will, the English Consul taking care that in the
event of the death of a British subject his property went to his
heirs. That treaty expired in November; and it was the
general opinion that the privilges wh ch had been erjoyed by
British subjects had expired with it. A case had recently
a igen in which considerable alarm had been felt as to the dispnsal
of the property of British subjects dying in the Brazils. or dying
in thin country, and leaving property in the Brazils. He wished
to ask the Right Hon. Baronet first, if the Government had
taken the matter into their consideration ? Secondly, if Mr.
Hamilton had made any con.munication to them on this sub-
ject? And thirdly, if he could t old out any hopes that the
same privileges would be continued to British subjects in the
Brazils, which they had enjoyed previously to the expiration of
the treaty ?
Sir. R. PEEL replied that it often happened that the mer-
chants of Liverpool and Manchester received earlier intelligence
of matters of this nature than was received by the Foreien-
office. The Government had not received any account of the
transaction to which the Hon. Gent:ernan referred, but he
would make this general statement that by the treaty which ex-
pired in 1844, on the death of any hritt h subject in the Brazils
the administration of his effects devolved upon the British
Consul and not upon the Brazilian authorities. tier Ma-
jesty's Government had made a proposition to the Brazilian
Government on the subject of the treaty, and that stipulation
was a part of the proposal which they had made.
THE ASHBURTON TREATY.
Lord PALMERSTON did not think that the answer
which the Right Honourable Baronet had given to his
Honourable Friend the Member for Montrose on the sub-
ject of the extracts from the dispatches which had been
read by Lord Ashburton in another place was altogether
satisfactory. He did not know exactly the extracts to which
his Hon. Friend had alluded, but, from what he had heard, he
understood that Lord Ashburton had read elsewhere
same extracts from certain dispatches, for the pur-
pose of showing that some statement that had been
made by a member of that House (the House of Commons)
Was erroneous. Now he would assume that to be the fact—
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume)—and he would ask where did
Lord Ashburton get those dispatches?—( Cheers.) He must
hav,v procured them either as a negotiator, in which
case l'hey would bo his own dispatches, either written by him
or sera' to him, or they were dispatches which had been ob-
tained i'vom the Foreign-office, or they were dispatches
which brad been laid before Parliament. If they
were dispatches which had been laid before Parliament,
he had nothing more to say. The Noble Lord had a perfect
right to use them. If the dispatches were his own—were dis-
patches which had come into hie power as a negotiator, having
been either written by him or to him—if these dispatches
had been furnished to him by the Government, then he would
say that, in the first ease, he had no right !o read his own dis-
patches without having obtained permission ofti-;‘, Government,
and if he had obtained that permission, or if th.. 7 had been
furnished to him by the Foreign-office, then it was the inva-
riable practice of Parliament to lay those dispatches on the ta-
ble, in order that Parliament might know what they contains:al,
instead of being only made acquainted merely with extracts
reads in Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet would see that
it was not sufficient to say that the dispatches merely related
to a question which had been settled. The question was not in
realilyas to anything that had passed in the negotiations between
the United States and this country, but it was to see if cer-
tain statements made in that House by persons formerly hold-
ing official situations, were or were not erroneous,
asad whether or not these statements had been
made for the purposes of deceiving. He wished
to ask another question. On the 16th July, he moved
for a return of the number of negroes landed in each year,
from 1815 downwards, on the coast of America. That return
the Right Hon. Baronet acceded to with the greatest rea-
diness, and he (Lord Palmerston) could only wish that the
:lame readiness had been shown in furnishing it. The Right
Hon. Baronet had told him that he had presented ar, but this
was not his ( Lord Palmerston's) return, but some other. He
trusted the Right Hon. Baronet would make inquiries into the
Subject and see that the returns were presented.
Sir R. PEEL could not understand what dispatches the
Hon. Member for Montrose had alluded to. Of course, if it
were necessary, any dispatches which had been produced
in the other House of Parliament might be produced
to the House of Commons, (so we understood the Right Hon.
Barostet, but from the low tone of voice in which he spoke, and
the noise which prevailed in the House, we could scarcely hear
him.)
Mr. FUME said he had alluded to dispatches which had
been referred to by a Noble Lord in another place, which had
not been lstid before that House.
Sir R. P.SEL, with respect to the return alluded to by
the Noble Lard, could only say that it was very difficult to get
up such returns, but he would use every exertion to have this
one made.

BUENOS AYRES.
Mr. EWART wished to put a question to the Right Hon.
Baronet with reference to the affairs of Buenos Ayres and
Monte Video. His only object in doing so was the protection
of British property and the restoration of commerce. Since
be had last mentioned this subject he had understood, from
authority which he could not doubt, that the blockade had be-
come a general blockade of the town of Monte Video. He also
Understood that the commerce on the river Plate had been pro.
bibited. He had also understood that duty had been levied on
foreign ships, and that an edict had been issued by the Go-
vernment of Buenos Ayres for suppressing the English, Scotch,
and Irish schools in that town. Tia question he had to ask
Iras,first, whether such measures had been taken as would en-
sure the safety of British property ; and, secondly, whether
Stich measures were in progress as would restcirp the commerce
of that part of South America?
Set part
PEEL could only make the same statement which
`1! had made sometime since, namely, that steps had been
takenta
.by the British Minister in conjunction with the repre-
f teive of the Court of France to put an end to the unhappy
*l4te things to which the Hon. Gentleman referred. With
retwet to the protection of British commerce he could state
that a
Pie means existed in
British subjects. There were six
the
wer in the river Plate. With respect to the schools
thy, Goverment had received no communication, The Bri-
e and subjects had a right to private schools for the
hcati
eccon of their children, and any edict prohibiting their
Private schoo's would be met by an effectual remonstrance
made against enforcement of that edict. The last thing
the Hon. Genthmart referred to was important, he said that
the Government of Buenos Ayres claimed the allegiance of
The British subjects. A foreigner born within the dominions
Other Majesty was a British-fern subject—if a subject of her
Majesty was horn out of Buenos Ayres, then he could not be
coosidzred a Brazilian subject. But if the son of a British sub-
ject be barn at Buenos Ayres then they had no right to object
to the application of that principle for which they themselves
contended. While he was entitled to the citizenship of
Buenos Ayres he was liable to the burthens of the State.

- —.
_
MAYNOOTH.
Sir R. INGLIS wished to esk the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R Peel) if he intended to press the second reading of the
sill referring to the Maynoothgrant at the time now appointed
for it ?
Sir R. PEEL said it was a matter of great importance that
the sense of the House should be taken on so important a
ratter, but it was his desire that it should be read a second
e on Friday next.
THE OREGON TERRITORY QUESTION.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had a question of very
great importance to bring before the consideration of the
House, and he hoped he would, therefore, be pardoned if he
trespassed upon it for a short time. It was not his intention
to call in question either the general foreign policy of her Ma-
jesty's present Government, or of that which they had given
notice with respect to the particular question now before the
House ; but what he intended to do was, to bring before the
Legislature the question of the Government of the United
States in reference to the Oregon territory. His Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for Bath had intended to have
put the same question to the Government, but he did not do
30, expecting to have had a satisfactory explanation from the
Government ; and he (Lord John Russell) would
have pursued the same course had it not been for
the inaugural addressee of the two Presidents of. the
'United States, by which it appeared it was intended to take
This question out of the ordinary course of diplomatic ques-
tislia, and therefore it demanded more than ordinary consi-
der:, tion from that House. Had this question been left be-
tween ,'he Executive Government, of this country, and the
Executie,cl Government of the United States, as had been
the usual ,sourse, whatever might have been the result he
would have v,,,ited in silence, until the close of the proceed-
ing before he si, ould have interfered.—( Hear, hear.) But if
he did not very match mistake, he believed he would be war-
ranted in saying, t;aat the President of the United States
had, ha the present insaaance, adopted a course entirely new
(Hear)—a course which, if not met by something
deeisive
on the part of this country, threatened to overthrow all the
ordinary intercourse which, shoui,2 exist between the Execu-
live Governments of the two net s, and leave the de.
h...T imnce
cision of questions of
great tional
to be decided on the one hand by Popular ad-
dretetes from the Government to the p,:ople ; and
-11 peace
trti the other, by a course which would put an end to ...
Zds amity, and that national dignity which characterises,' the
I'
...etng intercourse, and which was so necessary to the due'
barge pf that duty to the rights of the people of this
.kry which the British Government had taken undlegrethueni;
estarge.—( Hear, hear.) He should here mention—though he
would Only •
,o,.__ do so as a passing allusion—that this message
.t. anted at that vast territory of the United States, the annexa-
aTo of Texas, and of which he would n;ohtusttahtee the boundary,
any th.,ealimits remained still undefined
producing
t that vast extent of territory was a mostwforuuitfmulesroeil!
eultitivaeteing cotton and other articles used in this country, and
,xtenA, d by slave labour, and extending, as it would no doubt
N. " aver that portion of the country. He had alluded to
;1110-wi...p.art of thequestion only for the purpose of
ir '"u that the present conduct of the Execu-
it., Government of the United States tended entirel to
ti;,,viri territorial aggrandisement._( Hear, hear.) He said
ti.',..! "cause it was in direct contradiction of the p l't. l d i
1,;:17,3 Made by Mr. Webster,
was
ao
s'heaedkdfencrlarec-rd'e)talha'Estthreee atrue
Aotejoo_f the United States se
she
_e:tiou territorial aggrandisement, but by the cultivateir of
14._r, • . rces which lay within their own immense territory.
-te's‘
,brelief was that, in declaring that opinion, Mr. Webster
of7l`._ ed. not only what was most likely to preserve. relations
am '3', with foreign powers, but that which was most
hear \out, la to the interests of his country.—( Hear,
sir,e.'), I.'ut be that as it might, such a course had
of .en dstnarted from. In the next sentence of the message,
sot: declaring his intention, by all appropriate means, to con-
r;:•e at the earlie,t period the annexation of Texas, the
v?lit ent goes on with the following remarkable paragraph,
..1;;:(1,r I will .read throughout. The paragraph is as :allows :.__
be all vllll it beconv less my duty to assert and maintain,
tgat cnnstitutional me.zn't, the rightof the United States
to
Portion t
taiN. 0 our territov y which lies beyond the rocky moun-
b,tu,,, our title to the comat ry of the Oregon is clear and un-
ent ; and ahead • out people are -preparing to perfect
ht xtle by occupying yeas3h their wives children —(Hear
thetr') About eighty ago our people were confined on
..... ?fest by the ridge of the Alleghenies. Within that period
Within the lifetime I might say, of some of my hearers—our
keel ,
vace increasin to many millions, have filled the eastern
to itlr the
. Mig
ssissippi—adventurously ascended the Missouri
14 eat' spriggs, and are already engaged in establishing.the
117),,,15ing3 of our'aovernment in the valleys the rivers of w ,ich
*Cietic the the Pacific- The world beholds tloe peaceful triumph
Industry of our migrants.elt is our duty toprotect them
v'ever the, may be soil. '' -
upon our The jurisdiction of our
mss,atilethre-beneSt of our public instituflons, should be ex-
leet-e° them in the distant regions which they have "-
will q
.for their homes. The inesTasing facility of. intereourse
iki,t'aillY bring the States, of which the formation in that
territor Ca be long delayed, within the sphere
I,4etdlr federative uynionnnol the meantime the obligations im-
es", bY treaties or conventional arrangements should be sa-
tlikt y tftPected.', Here was, in the first place, an assertion
11b1 the title of the United States was clear and unquestion-
''' In the next place, that the title was perfected by the

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