The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-16 00:00:00

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS,

A Message was brought from the Lords to state
that their Lordships had agreed to the Covent-garden
Market Improvement Bill.

RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS.

Mr. Secretary PEEL brought in a Bill for the
more easy recovery of Small Debts, which was read
a first time, and ordered to be read a second time
on Monday next, and to be printed.

BANK NOTES (SCOTLAND AND IRELAND) BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER,
in moving -the order of the day for the second reading
of the Bank Notes (Scotland and Ireland) Bill,
observed, that he had communicated with some
Hon. Gentlemen opposed to this measure, and that
an arrangement was made, in which he hoped the
HOuse would concur, that the discussion on the Bill
should be taken upon bringing up the report, and
that the Bill should now be read a second time
without entering into the discussion.
Mr. PORTMAN wished to enter his protest
against the Bill, and against the principle which his
Majesty's Government sanctioned by the suppression
of the Small Note circulation. Me thought the
measure would be injurious to the landowners, the
traders, and all classes of persons.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM willingly acquiesced in
the arrangement entered into to postpone the dis-
cussion until the bringing up of the report. He might
state, however, that his objection to the principle of
the measure remained unabated.

Mr. HUME said, it was his intention on this oc-
casion to have stated his objections to the principle
of the Bill, and he meant in the Committee to pro-
pose a clause obliging every issuer of notes periodi-
cally to return to the Treasury an account of the
number of notes issued by him. In fact, the clause
was the same as that which he (Mr. Hume) pro-
posed in 1826.

The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
o be committed on Monday next.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a
Committee of Supply.
Colonel DAVIES said, that before the House Went
into a Committee, he had a resolution to move by way
of instruction to, the Committee, to' the effect, " that
it is expedient to consider the revenue of the country
and the expenditure of the army, with a view of reducing
this branch of the service as low as it was in 1823, or as
it could be brought consistent with the public security."
In moving this resolution be should trouble the House with
a few words. The Army Estimates were now before the
Committee, and it was understood that the Finance Com-
mittee would not report on this branch of the expenditure
this Session. He bad the greatest respect for the Mem-
bers of that Committee, individually and collectively, but
he could not set out of view that there was not a single
Member of that Committee connected with the three great
branches of the public service. With respect to the Army
who had the Committee examined? There were the Duke
of Wellington, Lord Palmerston, the Adjutant-General,
and the Quarter-Master-General. If the Committee were
desirous of receiving information as to the expediency of
keeping up a large force, there were no persons more likely
to afford them all the information they could desire on that
point than those they examined ; but if the object was re.
duction, there were no witnesses whose evidence was less
likely to lead to that result. He did not blame the Finance
Committee. They very properly commenced by examining
persons of high ranl, and he knew it was difficult to find
persons not in of who were disposed to offer themselves.
He (Colonel Davies) believed that no evidence on the
state of the army, which' an officer could give before a
Finance Committee, would make any difference with the
Duke of Wellington, but this was the feeling that pre-
vailed and prevented persons front offering themselves.
Without going much into detail he would beg the House
for a moment to consider what the means of the country
were. His golden era was in 1823 ; he did not go so fill.
back 89 1792 ; 1823 was a year of peace, but the peace of
Europe was then threatened by the lawless aggression com-
mitted by France in her invasion of Spain. In 1823 the

gross income arising from taxation, leasing out of the ac-

count all the trickery between the Bank of England and
the Government, which only tended to confuse and swell
the amount on paper, was 61,300,000/. This was the in-
come in 1823, but in 1827 this income fell to 58,417,7281.;
and supposing, for argument, that the revenue for the pre-
sent year, will be the same as that for the last year. there
is a decrease in the revenue since 1823 of 2,883,272/.
If an individual was encumbered with debt, and in-
stead of diminishing, it was increasing, whilst the
income was diminishing, what would be thought of
that individual's affairs, and yet that was precisely the
case with the country ? He would now state the gra-
dual increase which had taken place in our military force,
since 1823, and the gradual increase in the charge of
maintaining that force. In 1323, our military force con-
sisted of 69,144 men, and the charge for that force was
2,561,000/. In 1824, the number of men was 76,700,
and the charge 2,731,000/. In *1825, the number of
men was 86,893, and the charge 3,062,000/. In 1826,
the number of men was 87,240, and the charge
3,157,000/. ; and in 1827, the number of men was
86,808, and the charge 3,159,000/. This year he took
it for granted that the number of men and the charge
would be about the same as last year. Thus they were
going on year after year, increasing rapidly in their career
of expellee. But this was not all, the troops in India had in-
creased from 19,800 to 25,000. It Might be said those troops
were not an expellee to this country, but he believed he was
warranted in saying that our finances in India were not
in a very satisfactory state. The total expenditure of this
country for the army, the navy, and miscellaneous services
was now 17,815,0001., to which he did not add the ex-
penditure of money for public works, which was 1,283,000/.
The whole expenditure in round numbers, therefore, was
19,000,0001., whilst in 1823, the whole expenditure was
only 16,800,0001., so that there was an increase between
the expenditure of the present year and that of 1823 of
2,228,000/., to which, if they added the decrease of the
revenue,-which was 2,287,100/., the country was worse
off this year than it was in 1823, by a sum of 5,116,000/.
Now, he asked, was it possible to go on in this way ? He
believed that, in the situation of the country, no new
taxes could be laid on, and unless new taxes were im-
posed, or a reduction took place in the public ex-
pences, it was clear that the country could not go on.
He did not call for the reduction of those establish-
ments on which the honour and security of the country
depended. He only referred to 1823, when a Ministry,
not famed for economy, did not think of proposing ths mine
military establishments which it was now proposed to keep
up. He thought arrangements might be made with respect
to our Colonial garrisons, which would prevent the ex-
pence and loss occasioned by the constant recalling of
troops. By the present arrangement 6,000 or 7,000 men
were always at sea, and were of no use. If a garrison or
a thousand men were to be relieved, the relief had a voy-
age to take, perhaps of some months ; those who were re-
lieved were then the same time returning, and a large body
of men were thus constantly kept going and coming. He
only proposed an extension of the system' now in existence.
With respect to the regiments in India, if it was a punish-
ment for them to remain there, it was a punishment they
would enter into themselves. There was another point
to which he wished to direct the attention of the House—
he meant the system of depot companies, which was a great
injury to discipline, and a system very injurious in its ef-
fects ; 13,000 officers and men were rendered ineffective
by this system. He believed the Noble Duke wished to
make every practicable reduction, but he should be assisted
by Parliament. As the Duke of Wellington had vanquished
the enemies of his country in the field, he would do that
country a still greater benefit by restoring it to prosperity,
by a reduction of its expenditure. The lion. Member
concluded by moving the resolution.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE hoped the Hon. Member
(Col. Davies) would not think it disrespectful if he ab-
at Lined from making any reply to his observations until the
House went into Committee.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN supported the resolution.
Mr. MONCK observed, that in no despotic state was
there a dead weight so large as that of this country.
Mr. HUME wished to knew what occasion there was
for keeping up this year an army of 90,000 infantry ? lie
could account for it on no other ground than that his Ma-
jesty's Government were fond of large armies, and the pa-
tronage they threw into their hands. Including the navy,
the artillery, the volunteers, the militia, staff, the yeo-
manry, and the constabulary force of Ireland, we had
nearly 150,000 men iu arms. He was glad the Govern-
ment had not precipitated the country into a war, and as he
hoped they did not mean to dLiio; what use could they have
for such a force as this? He feared this country was going
on as the Noblesse of France before the French Revolution.
He was not opposed to a standing army upon principle.—
It might at one time have been contrary to the spirit of
the Constitution, but now he was sure it was an integral
and an economical point of our Constitution. He

was always averse to changes in the Ministry, and had
Mr. Canning lived the Estimates would have been very
different this year, for he knew tkat he had given orders
for the reduction of the Estimates to the extent of one
million and a half. The moment he was gone, however,
his plans were changed, and the reduction no longer
thought of. But he might as well speak to the winds as
to that House. The Gallant Member opposite, the Secre-
tary at War (Sir H. Hardinge), he hoped would effect the
same reductions in the army which he had effected in the
Ordnance. He gave him credit for what he did there, but
he did not do half enough. He was quite sure that
the three establishments might be reduced from 16 millions
to 12, allowing five millions for the dead weight. If the
military gentlemen in civil office would but divest them-
selves of Nee idea of Waterloo and the Ist of June, and the
navy the same, nod -.ot think the salvation of the country
depended upon :raving the services in a state fit for imme-
diate action, all would go on well. We should remove
taxation, reduce our military establishment, and until
then we never could make any progress in improvement,
wherefore he should support the motion of his Honourab)e
Friend. The Hou. Gentleman concluded by saying that
the House could not be of a different opinion, and after
asking pardon for having trespassed so long, said he would
not go into all the details, which would occupy too much
time.

Mr. W. SMITH should abandon his duty to the
country if he did not bear his testimony to that part of the
resolution which went to a reduction of the expenditure of
the country. One of his reasons for supporting it was,
dust when details were alluded to, there was no describing
the advantage which official persons had. It was impos-
sible for him to ascertain, whether in a particular instance
an item of 5,500/. should he better than 6,7001., but this
he was sure of that the country could not bear her ex-
pences which from year to year increased instead of dimi:
nishing the burden of debt also continuing, as it appeared
from the accounts submitted that the utmost amount of re-
ductiou which had taken place .from 1815 up to the last
two years, only came to 2,700,0001. It made but little
difference even if it were 5,000,000/., because if in thir-
teen years of peace the improvement were not in a much
greater ratio, there could be no greater absurdity than the
idea of ever discharging the National Debt. With respect
to the comparison made between cur present state, and
that of Fr:lnce in 1789, he did not believe that our condi-
tion would 'leaa to revolution, but he thought it must to
bankruptcy.

The Amendment was then put and negatived without a
division, and on the question that the Speaker do leave
the Chair,

Mr. BRIGHT rose to tr.oVe an instruction to the Com-
mittee, when he was informed by the Speaker that no in-
struction could be moved to a Committee of Supply.
Mr. BRIGHT then said, he was sorry he was in error,
but the question be wished to propound, was one- of consi-
derable importance. His object was, that there should be
a smr.ll sum of money placed at the disposal of philosophi-
cal persons, for the purpose of investigating the natural
productions of a part of our Colonies. Expeditions had
lately been sent out under Captain Parry and others, and
the country had borne their expences; in the last reign,
voyages of discovery had been carried on in the same way,
and a great deal of good had been effected. The West
India Islands were the Colonies which he wished to have
examined, as nothing of the kind had taken place there for
near 100 years, wherefore he would wish to Lave a small
sum placed at the disposal of the Royal Society, to send
out persons there to investigate their natural productions.
The whole of South America had been visited for this pur-
pose, and it was incumbent on this country to look to the
natural advantages of her own Colonies. His notion was
that 1,000/, should be given this year, and as much next,
and then if the Colonies did not proceed, they would, if
advantage were to accrue from the investigation, have no
excuse for not proceeding.
An Hon.. MEMBER asked whether an instruction could
not he moved, when

The SPEAKER said the lion. Member should be aware
that au instruction never could be moved to a Committee
of Supply, and that nothing could be brought on in that
Comtnittee of which notice had not been given in detail,
by the estimate laid before the House.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as
the subject could not be alluded to in the''Cotrunittf;e, the
House would perhaps pardon him for making an observa-
tion. That was the first time he had ever heard of there
hung any deficiency of information with respect to the
West Ind;es, as there were few portions of his Majesty\
dominions respecting which there were more minute details,

wherefore he would not recommend any grant for the pur-
pose stated by the Hon. Member.
The question was then put, the Speaker left the Chair,
and the House went into Committee.
ARMY ESTIMATES.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that about three months
ago his Noble Friend Lord Palmerston had moved the
vote for the forces for the year, for the purpose of passing
the Mutiny Bill, and obtained asum on account to the amount
of 2,000,000!., leaving the future amount in the discre-
tion of the House, as if there had been no vote, and every
Member at liberty to take any course that seemed proper to
him. His Hon. and Gallant Friend (Colonel Davies) had
objected to the amount ; but his Gallant Friend, as well as
himself, must be aware, that there was very considerable
difficulty in limiting by any precise rule the amount which
ought to be voted, taking into consideration ourcolonial po-
licy, the preservation of tranquillity in Europe, as well as the
state of the population at home. The Gallant Officer ob-
jected, first, that the numbers were too great, and wished
us to return to those of 1822 ; but it should be recollected
that in the Colonial force, where there were six regiments
additional, that was nothing but a transfer from the army
extraordinaries into the present estimate, wherefore there
was in point of fact no real addition at all. Another point
which would show that the preseut amount was not greater
than that of 1822, was ft be seen by looking at the esti-
mates with respect to non-effectives, the number of whom
would be reduced by the process of heightening the stan-
dard from five feet six to five feet seven inches, in conse-
quence of which there would be a greater difficulty in re-
cruiting, and that would cause a diminution in the propor-
tion of 80,000!. to 110,000!. the latter being the expense
of the whole 5,000 men. As to the Colonial Corps, al-
though his Hon. and Gallant Friend objected to the present
system, lie surely could not intend that the Colonies were
to be perpetually garrisoned by them, for if that course
were proceeded further in it would destroy the energy and
character of the army, and he himself was sure that his
Gallant Friend would not like to keep hie brother officers
in the exile which such a system would inflict on them.
The 60th regiment was for many years a Colonial corps of
this description, a condemned regiment, and in consequence
except for the sake of patronage, it seldom happened that
any of the bettor description of officers would be induced to
go into it. If you were to deprive the army of ambition,
its national character would be destroyed, as they might re-
collect was the case fourteen or fifteen years ago with re-
spect to the Foot and Bcdy Guards, the latter of which
were very deficient as to the character of the officers. The
Life Guards were merely considered as pageantry, and sta-
tionary, and the consequence was what he had stated.—
From that he should say that any corps left stationary in
the manner proposed would lose its character, and he be-
lieved that the destruction of the army must be the con-
sequence if the Colonial Corps were thus increased. On
the third point the Depot Companies, which his Gal-
lant Friend had stated to be most useless, he should
without meaning the least discourtesy, absolutely deny his
assertion. He would, on the contrary, assume that there
could not be a better system for the annual supply of a re-
giment abroad, say for a period of ten years, than this,
for, on the return of a soldier after his term, instead of
pensioning him off, he could be sent to a depot, where he
would he able to have the benefit of his native air, and do
European duties. So too with the officers, who, instead
of unlimited leave of absence for a year and a half, or two
years, might be sent to the depots in the room of those
who took their places, by which means the battalions
would be rendered effective. It was also to be recollected
that when battalions returned from abroad, they were
enabled to remain only four years at home, and the present
system enabled them, by falling back on this aid, to reform
themselves with greater speed, wherefore ho differed from
his Hon. and Gallant Friend on all his points, more espe-
cially that of the Depot Companies. He would then in a
very cursory manner go through the estimates, which
stated its number, organization, and distribution. The
total number was 60,719, which, deducting the Officers,
left the rank and file 77,719—(here the lion. and Gal-
lant Officer proceeded with extreme rapidity to state
the distribution of the army, so that we could not accu-
rately catch his statement)—leaving twenty-nine battalions
in Great Britain. He bad thus calculated on 74• regi-
ments on foreign service, and those were barely sufficient
for the ten years' service abroad, it being considered that of
these seven were to be relieved every three years. That
would show that the .home establishment was kept at its
lowest possible standard. A considerable reduction had
taken place, such as that in retired officers, which caused
a saving of 6,5004, and various others had been effected,
amounting in the whole to 140,000!., which did not ap-
pear in the Estimate. He would not then go into the
items, but merely would state that there was an increase in
the number of in-pensioners to the number of 399, the
expense of whom was 123,000!. Ne concluded by moving,
" That it is the opinion of the Committee that a sum not
exceeding 1,210,694/. 15s. sd. begranted to complete the
sums for defraying the expenses of the land forces in Great
Britain and Ireland and abroad, exclusive of the forces in
the East Indies."

Oa the question being put by the Chairman,
Colonel DAVIES said, that if the Colonial Corps were
kept up, it would not happen that a regiment after serving
in the East Indies could only remain four years at home,
and asked if such a regiment was quartered all that time
at home, would it be considered a stigma ? One battalion
of the 60th was always a condemned regiment, to which
all the bad characters of the army were sent, but if 30 or
40,000 men were permanently kept up, no such stigma
could apply to them. With respect to the Life Guards,
when he entered the army their officers certainly were not
of the highest tone in society, but when they were sent
abroad they behaved as well as any other corps, and so
would the militia if welt officered. The West. India negro
regiments also fought well. As a nucleus in case of war
he thought the depot companies entailed great expellee—
but when persons went to this extent, they abandoned the
vantage ground we possessed from our insular situations,
for as long as we possessed the controul of the sea, there
was no fear that any of our colonies could be invaded
without our being able to have a force to prevent it.
Sir H HARDINGE explained.
_ _

Mr. HUME said, if any instance were wanted in oppo-
sition to the Right Him. Gentleman's position, it would
be found in the existence and condition of the Native troops
in India, who never left the Colony. He looked to eco-
nomy, which could be best practised by having the troops
stationary, and wheu it was seen that there were 71 batta-
.

lions abro.td, that must be manifest. The army in 1822
was 69,000, while at present it was 86,000, and he asked
what necessity could exist for this increase of 17,000. As
long as the house allowed such power to Ministers, there
would never be a reduction. In the Mauritius and New-
foundland there were huudreds of troops kept, when a very
few troops would answer every purpose. The Gallant
Officer had said there were in Ireland 23,000 men, whence
10,000 men might be withdrawn if Government acted as
they ought. He should like to know why they had more
Life and Horse Guards now than formerly. Formerly,
the. e used only to be 700 or 800 men of them, but now
we had 1,300. Of Foot Guards we used to have 3,700,
but now we had s,7oo.—(Hear, hear.) But the fact was,
all the duties were now overdone. He understood that at
Windsor, during the late King's reign, it guard of one hun-
dred men did all the duty, but now there was a whole re-
giment,—(A. laugh.) Of Household troops, we used to
hare 10,000, but now they amounted to 14,000. We
made a • great fuss, and took great credit to ourselves for
discharging a few clerks, who cost 80/. or 901. a year;
but we kept thousands of men here, who, with their horses,
cost from 1001. to 1501. each, The Noble Lord, formerly
at the !lead of the War Department, had given evidence in
favour of the manner in which the small battalions of 400
or 500 men each were increased to 700 or 800 each, and •
credit was taken for the change; but now it appeared that
we were returning to the old plan of small hattitlious,—
We had fifty-one depots of 500 men each, where 650 offi-
cers were employed in drilling the men to be sent ro• the
regiments abroad, He did not see why the enormous ex-
pense to which this put us should not be reduced.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that the Hon. Member
was mistaken in supposing that these depots were ad-
ditional expense. The fact was, that font' companies of a
regiment now remained at home, whilst the rest went
abroad. Those that remained at home supplied those on
the foreign station witli fresh men, and thus kept up the
effective force of the regiment during the ten years it was
abroad. All the additional expense incurred by keeping
these companies at home as a depot was Vs, a day for each
battalion. And these battalions, it must be remembered,
performed a duty, which if they did not perform others
reurostrre engaged to de.
Mr. MIME said that the raising of the small battalions
into large ones, or the decreasing the large to small, must
be bad, yet credit was taken for both.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the Hon. Member was
mistaken in supposing the battalions reduced in the man-
ner he had stated. Each regiment consisted of 740 men,
and not of 400, from which the increase was made : and
the same number of officers served for the 740 men, as in
1792 served for the 400. (Hear.) It was ad's which
was, the great saving by the arrangement. He hid lately
compared the total expense of two regiments of foot guards,
and two of the line, in the course of the last year, and
found that the former one came only to 7s. per year per
man more than the latter.- (Hear, bear.)
Colonel TRENCH thought he was bound in justice to
observe, that the system of the War Department reflected
equal credit on those who had gone out, and those who

were in.—(Hear, and laughter.)—He should not have
trespassed on the time of the Committee, but that he was
auxious to make a sho.t .1., . ,t: i - apposition to that of
the Hon. Member for Al,m,l,en. t:., was doubly anxious
to make this statement, because it was due to the memory
of an illustrious individual, now no more, under whose su-
perintendence it had arrived at its present improved condi-
tion. He requested the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) to do
him the honour to follow him while he read this statement,
andjudge if it were accurate. He would say in all sin-
cerity to the Hon. Member—.

Si quid novisti rectius istis
Candide imperti—si non, his utere mecum."
FIRST CASE.
Cavalry in 1822 k, R. and F., 5916 men, exclusive of
Life Guards, Ruse Guards, and India, and 5916
men, R. and F., formed on the system of 1792,w0u1d
make 33 regiments, and cost £ 469,6.52
5916 R. and F., as formed in 1822, cost

Saving by better arrangement X 39,000
SECOND CASE.
Infantry of the Line are R. and F, in 1822, 49,510.
48,510 R. and F., on the plan of 1792 furm 120 regi-
ments, and cost X2,`3,252
But they do cost in 1822 1,990,000

Balance in favour of economyof 1822 £ 313,252
THIRD CASE.
Comparison, including pay and allowance, of the gross amount
of Troops.
48,000 men in 1792 cost (vide Journals)
Add for increase in 5014 years

Total cost of 48,000 at 1822 at rate of 1792 £1,877,359
PROPORTION.
As 48,000 men : 1,877,3594 : : 68,000 men : : 2,659,000/.X2,6.59,000
13ut by the estimate 68,000 men cost only

Balance in favour of economy of 1822 £ 413,000
Deduct forage paid by Commissariat in 1822 400,000

Remains balance £ 31:I,008
FOURTH CASE
On l‘fr. Hume's own data, though unfavourable, 48,000
men in 1792 (including every thing) cost the whole
establishment ..£2,331,140
Difference of pay and allowance one half

48,000 men at raie of 1792 would in 1822 cost —£3,196,723

As 48,000 men 3,490,9231. : 68,000 men • •
ADMITTED DIFFERENCE OF PROPORTION BE-
TWEEN EFFECTIVE AND NON-EFFECTIVE FORCE.
(A) 1792 as 500,0004. : 2,000,0004 14
1822 as 2,000,0004 8,(}00,0001,8,(}00,0001,500,000
(B) Items not in existence.in 1792

[892. Cost of 68,000, at rate of 1:94
Difference of value of money at 15 per cent 13613,000

Real cost of 68,000. at rate of 1792 6,356,000
Amount of estimate 6,103,000

Balance in favour of economy 1922 553,C410
Deduct forage as above :1,000,000

Real balance £ 453,000
(B) Royal Military College-- ......... .X 11,052
Royal Naval Asylum 26,149
Pay of General Officers
Foreign Half-pay 114,870

£318,396

He begged to observe, that in this statement he had admit-
ted all the arguments that could be urged against it, though
he had the authority of an Hon. Member opposite for say-
ing that value of money had varied during these periods
from 25 to 40 per cent.---(Cries of ►► No.")—He had
only taken it at 15 per cent.
Sir FRANCIS BLAKE wished to ask, in the event of
the conciliating spirit failing to tranquillise Ireland, how lie
could provide troops for the Colonies without increasing
the present establishment ?
Mr. HUME wished the establishment to be reduced to
that of 1822.
On the item of 136,0001, for the pay of General and
staff Officers serving in the United Kingdom and foreign
Stations,
Mr. HUME stated that this item had been considerably
reduced by the late Duke of York.
Colonel TRENCH explained.
The item was then voted.
On the item of 109,993/. Se. 9d. to defray the expenses
of the several Public Departments for 1928,
Mr. HUME complained of the amount of this Estimate.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that within the last nine
years, the number of clerks in the War-offiee had been re-
duced by one-half.
The sum of 175,614/. was then voted for hospital con-
tingencies.
On the item of 66,2121. Se. for defraying the expenses
of the volunteer corps,
Mr. HUME complained of the extravagant expense
which this corps brought on the country.
Mr. Y. PEEL said, that the reduction of the estimate
for the volunteer corps was two-thirds, compared with
what it was last year.
Mr. HUME said, that the Volunteer Yeomanry
Cavalry, since the . year 1817, had cost the country
1,312,6521., which would have been saved if the advice
given in 1817 and 1818 had been followed.
After a few wordy from Sir J. BRYDGES in defence
of the Yeomanry Cavalry, the resolution was agreed to.
A grant of 32,4714 .I.ls. 7d. for.the maintenance of four
troops of Dragoons, and twenty companies of Foot, kept up
for the Recruiting Service of the East India Company, was
agreed to.
ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE.

A grant of 12,191/. Iss. Bd. was then proposed to
defray the expenses of the Royal Military College for the
ensuing year.

Mr. 111311 E said that ho thought this a most useless
piece of expense. We had paid in the last eleven years,
for the education of 540 young gentlemen who had been
admitted into the army from this College, no less a sum
than 232,4371., being 425/. for each cadet admitted into
the army.
Sir A. HOPE wished that the Hen. Member for Aber-
deen had the candour of a Member of the Finance Com-
mittee, who, in all the reductions he had voted for, had
yet borne testimony to the excellent management of this
College. The lion. Member did not now, as he usually
did, propose to diminish the vote, but poisoned the mind
of the House by his statements, before the evidence adduced
in favour of that establishment, came before them. In
1792, the army had no education whatever, and all that
a subaltern officer learnt, was the tiring a platoon or the
saluting a general officer on field days. At the laeginning
of the last war we were actually obliged to apply to fo-
reign powers for assistance in organizing our army, before
it could begin its operations in Flanders. We had.now a
General Officer in our service who was a Captain in the
Austrian army when be came to assist us in that organisa-
tion. Now, however, we had 106 staff officers who had been
regularly educated at this College, and of the number there
were three Quarter Master-Generals of large armies. Be-
sides this, 76 had passed their examinations and obtained
certificates, which made one hundred and eighty-two persons
who were now with our army in different parts of the
world, qualified to take any duty that might be confided to
them. But, besides, there had been 2,050 officers, more
or less, educated in the College, who had since entered the
army. The Finance Committee of 1817 referred the fate
of this College to the decisiou of the Commander-in-Chief,
who modelled it as it was now found. The Hon. Member
for Aberdeen put himself up as the man who was to abridge
the expenses of the country.—(Hear, hear.)--But the
other night when the House was discussing the vote to the
Professors of Oxford, the lion. Member hoped that the
House would grant something to the London College.---
(Hear, hear, hear.)-,--io that give the Pion. Member his
favourite child--(laughter)--and he hail .ne objection to
lavish motley upon it, whilst he was willing to destroy the
military establishments of the country.—(Hear, hear.) •
Mr.' HUME said, that the mauner in which the Hon.
and Gallant Officer had addressed himself to him, called
upon him to make a few observations.—(Near, hear, hear.)
—The Gallant Officer had laid that poison had fallen from
bin:, tint was a statement of the truth poison ? (Clteers)—
It might be poison to the ears of the Gallant Officer.—
(Cheers.)—Was his statement of the expeuces of the Col-
lege for the last eleven years neh/ed ? He did not say any
thing against the system ,;,f education there.--(Hear, hear.).
—The reasonin of the Gallant Officer was not all appli-
cable to tLe subject. He said that somebody in the Finance
Committee had spoken in favour of the College, but be
(Mr. Home) had said nothing derogatory of it. He de-
nied both the garbling and the ralison attributed to him.—
(Hear.)—ln 1792 the Hon. Member had said we had no
education for our Officers in the army. He (Mr. H.) had
never cleuied the expediency of the officers being educated ;
what he objected to was, the country paying for the edu-
cation. As to the Committee of 1811,
it remained for the
House to consider whether the expense ought not to be
reduced in proportion to the wants of the service, or be
borne by the parties. With respect to the London College,
when he spoke of a vote for it, the Hon. and Gallant
Member could not hare been present, or he must have.
seen that it was a joke spoken ironically.—(Laughter.)--
Did the Hon. and Gallant Member suppose that he (Mr.
Hume) knew se little of the men to whom he bad to ad-
dress himself for the money as to imagine that they would
should be the veriest fool--(Loud cries of
hear)-.—that
ae
give one. farthiug for the furtherance of any liberal object.
to think of it even. He was sur-
prised‘fficer could have been so gulled as to
Chr)eLst.thie l—a
t Gallant
ever
suppose lie (Mr. Home) thought such an application
would be listened to for a moment.—(Loud laughter.)
Sir A. HOPE said, that lie was indeed in a humili-
ating situation, to find himself gulled by the Hon. Mem-
ber
for Montrose.—(Loud laughter, and cries of" hear.")
Mr. HOB HOUSF. said, that the course pursued by the
Gallaut Officer, was something new.—(Hear, hear.)—
There were Gallant Officers near him (Mr. H.) as gallant

~...

as the Hon. Member himself, from whom he had never
heard such language or any complaint of the consitutionia
mode in which Hon. Members expressed their dissatisfac-
tion at what they considered extravagance. Hon. Mem-
bers were not to be taunted in this way about gullibility,
or its being a disgrace to be gulled by this or that Member,
—(Cheers. )—.He must be excused for saying so, but thin
was language not to be borne.—(Cheers.)—He was not
angry for himself, for had the language been addressed to
him he should not have spoken. With respect to the men-
tion which his Noble Friend made of the London Univer-
sity, it was certainly in a joke, and yet the Hon. and
Gallant Member tried to raise a cry against him for it. He
trusted the Hon. and Gallant General would think this
said in good part.

Sir A. HOPE certainly did take what the Hon. Member
had said in perfectly good part, as respected the Hon.
Member for Westminster, for he bad had no intention of dis-
pleasing him. With regard to the foolish thing about
gulling, he was sorry, for his part, he had committed a
breach of the rules of the House.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose to protest against the
doctrine laid down by the Gallant Officer, that they were
not to discuss any thing till they had the Report of the Fi-
nance Couunittee. He would not say a word with respect
to the temper displayed, as the Gallant Officer had already
sufficiently apologised.—(Loud cries of " No, no.")
Sir A. HOPE had followed what he understood to be
the decision of the lionse, namely, that they should not
speak of curtailments in the Estimates till the Report of
the Finance Committee was before them.

Aster a few words from the CmANciaLon of the Ex..
CHIC:IMM and Mr. BARING,

The vote was agreed to ; the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and the Report was ordered to be received on Alon-
day.

SALE OF GAME BILL.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
and the House resolve itself into a Committee oa the Sale
of Game Bill,

Mr. S. WORTLEY said he felt assured the fending of
the House was, that some alteration of the law was neces-
sary ; moreover, the proposed change had received the
sanction of the other House of Legislature. The Hon.
Member then entered into an explanation of the present
state of the laws and the proposed changes, but as be spoke
from under the gallery, and is a low tone of voice, it was
impossible to understand him,
Sir J. BRYDGES opposed the Bill.
Sir J. SHELLEY should be committing an act little
short of political cowardice if he were to discontinue his
opposition to the principle of the Bill--coavinced that it
would not diminish poaching. The Hon. Baronet then
deprecated the species of sport called battu, in the collection
and preservation of genie, in which the greater portion of
the crime of poaching had its origin. As it was possible-,
however, that the Bill might produce some good, he should
not oppose it.

Sir H. VIVIAN condemned the practice of hoarding
up game for hattus.
Mr. C. WOOD—Although he did net quite appro% e
of the qualifications suggested in the present Bill, thought
himself bound to support this measure.
Lord W. PAULETT, 13tIr. COLPORNt, Mr. F. LEWIS,
and Mr. Secretary PEEL, concurred in supporting the
principle of the Bill.

Lord Mottritru, Mr. G. LAMB, and Mr. %NETT, like-
wise supported the principle of the Bill, and the House
finally resolved itself into a Committee ; Mr. F. Lnwts, its
the Chair.

Mr. S. WORTLEY stated that it was not his intention
to do any thing snore on the present occasion than to pro-
pose a few verbal amendments, and to introduce one or two
clauses in the Committee, to which he was perfectly con-
fident no opposition would be made.
The amendments were then agreed to, the Report was
brought up and read, and ordered to be taken into fulfiller
consideration on Monday next.

•• ~►

fe*
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