The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

poor indeed.—(Laughter, and ironical che' re from the Oppo-
sition.) lion. Members might laugh, but he would repeat it,
that applications had been made to these C.,mmissioners for
the repairing of churches that had gone into a most dilapidated
state, but the invariable answer received was that the Com:nis-
sioners had no funds, Irides i, in he dioeve in which he re-
sided, there were no fewer than fifty places licensed for publ:c
worship, in which there was no church, while in others, the
churches were in so dilapidated a state, that he had seen the rain
falling down through the roof during the period of public wor-
ship. Yet, though he heard much said of the poverty of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, let him call upon the House to
look at the poor miserable schools the Protestants of Ireland
were furnished with, and contrast them with the magnificent
cathedrals that the Roman Catholics had erected for their
places of public worship.—(Loud cheers and laughter from
the Opposition.) Hon. Members opposite might cheer and
laugh ; but if they had seen these edifices as he had, they
would not do so.—(Continued laughter, in which the Hon.
Member for Waterford, Mr. Wyse, joined.) The Honour-
able Member opposite laughed, but he (Lord Bernard)
would ask him, was it not notorious that in
addition to the Roman Catholics having erected splendid
edifices for their worship in Ireland, they had actually remitted
10,0001. a-year for the purpose of propagating the Roman
Catholic faith in countries which he (Lord Bernard) was ready
to admit were colonies subject to the British Government. If
such then was the fact, why should not the Roman Catholics
support themselves, and be above demanding any support from
the State? With respect to the statements that had been
made, to the effect that the revenues now enjoyed
by the Protestant Church had been taken from the Roman
Catholics, he begged to say that never was an historical fact
more contrary to the real state of the case.--( Laughter from
the Opposition benches.) He was prepared now, or at any
other time, to defy any man to prove that such was the fact.—
( Renewed laughter.) The Noble Lord then entered into a
disquisition on the history of the events that took place in this
country, in Ireland, in Scotland, and on the Conti-
nent, immediately prior and subsequent to the Pro-
testant Reformation, which, he contended, plainly showed
that the revenues now in the possession of the Pro-
testant Church properly and legally belonged to it,
:tad concluded this branch of his observations by stating that
the only incident which the Protestant Church had to deplore
was that by which it was for a time deprived of its lawful
rights was when Pope Adrian the Fourth sold Ireland to Eng-
land.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then again adverted
to the present state of the Protestant Church in Ireland. He
contended that the ministers of that Church were self-deny-
ing, zealous, and disinterested, and were, therefore, held in
the highest esteem by their flocks. He denied that the Roman
Catholics did not seek for supremacy in their Church. Al-
ready they had attained supremacy in the corporations, and if
they got this measure they would never cease until their
creligiou was supreme. Let him ask if the Roman Catholic
lergy were to receive two hundred pounds a year each, how
was the Government to maintain the clergy of the Protestant
Church who were now so poorly paid?—(lronical cheers.)
He would call on the House to pause. Let them consider the
position in which they stood. They were not to imagine that
because no petition had hitherto come from the Protestant
population of Ireland, that therefore they approved of the mea-
sure then before the House. Let the House recollect that
Catholic Emancipation had been granted, and he would ask
whether the effect had been to conciliate Ireland? Concession
and conciliation had only produced fresh demands in Ireland.
He would again call upon the House to pause, for let them
recollect

Facilis descensus Averni
Nodes atque dies pmtet atri janua dais,
Sed revocare gradum, superasque evadere ad auras
Hoc opus, hic labor est.
Sir J. EAST HOPE, who was very indistinctly heard in the
gallery, said he had presented a petition, agreed to at one of
the largest meetings ever held in the town which he had the
honour to represent. One of the allegations of that petition
was, that this Bill, if passed, would prove the first step to-
wards supplanting Protestantism by Popery. He could not
help believing that these assertions were founded in error. He
believed that the alarm which had spread through the country,
with respect to this measure, was entirely unfounded. Pie be-
lieved that no Minister, however strong he might be with re-
spect to numbers in that house, would ever have a chance of car-
rying any measure, whose effect would be to endanger the exist-
ence or stability of the Protestant Church. hut that was not the
question they had to discuss. The plain question was, whether
they should govern the Catholics of Ireland in a spirit of jus-
tice, kindness, and conciliation ? It was not the question,
whether the institutions of the country would be affected, but
whether eight millions of people were to be cared for ? The ques-
tion was, whether they could resist the demands of the people
for instruction? Those demands which they had a right to make.
What objection could be made to the priests of Ireland being
educated in their own country ? Every one knew of the efforts
which had been made to drive those priests to other countries.
They knew, and every one must know, the beggarly state of
their principal College, and the state of degradation— he might
add, destitution—into which the students there were thrown.
He could not help feeling that it was worthy of remark their
not seeing on those benches to support this measure, that
Hon. Gentlemen, and those who were in immediate connexion
with him, who had led the agitation for repeal of the Legis-
lative Union ; and he could not help feeling that there was
good ground for expectation, if justice was done by this
measure, that agitation would cease. What was Mr. O'Con-
nell's atrength but Ireland's wrongs? What was an adequate
and fit redress but kindness, conciliation, and justice? Those
were the views which had influenced him, painful as it might
be, in placing himself in opposition to those who had
sent him to that House. As he entertained these opinions,
and he entertained them strongly, ho felt that it would be
unworthy of the confidence of those who had sent him to that
House, if he did not support that opinion by his vote, in spite
of those of his ccnstitueuts. He believed that this measure
would have the effect of suppressing a dangerous agitation—
that it would cure complaint, that it would redress grievances,
and inspire confidence in this country on the part of the Irish
people. He confessed that when a good gift was offered, he
was not very much disposed to complain of the donor. In con-
sidering this question, he did not think it necessary to make
lany complaint of inconsistency on the part of the proposers of
this measure, although he regretted that the Right Hon. Gen
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so badly de-
fended himself with respect to that subject.—( Great laughter.)
But he thought the less said on that matter the better. He
gave credit to those who had embarked in this course for
being actuated by good motives, and he did not stop to con-
sider whether there was consistency in their conduct or not.
There was one thing he could not pass over in this discussion,
and that was, the absence of those Gentlemen from whom
they had so often heard of Ireland's grievances. He thought
it was remarkable that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Cork, and those who were associated with him, were
not in their places to support this measure. He (Sir John
Easthope ) cared not for the expression of approbation —he
cared much more for action. He believed that this measure would
contribute towards the stilling of agitation. The people of
Ireland would be in better temper with the people of England.
'When he said the people of Ireland, he did not mean the
800,000 Protestants in that country, but he meant the
8,000,000 of her inhabitants. He believed that the 800,000
Protestants of Ireland would be delighted to find that the
8,000,000 were more contended, that they had been taken
from agitation to improvement, and that they had been in-
duced to take a course, which would increase the welfare and
prosperity of this country. HP believed that the interest of
the whole empire was involved in this measure, and he be-
lieved that it was one, which every good, every reflecting,
every honest, and every patriotic man ought to support. If
the motion of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Sheffield could be framed so as not to impede this measure he
should give it his support; but if it should have the effect of
impeding this measure, he should feel it his duty to vote
against it.
Lord JOCELYN said he was aware that his Noble Friend
who had lately spoken, spoke the sentiments of a large portion
of the Irish Protestants, and that he had spoken the sentiments
of a body of men who from his (Lord Jocelyn's) earliest
youth he had been taught to respect. If any stranger had en-
tered that House during his Noble Friend's speech, and who
had been unaware of the subject under discussion, be might have
been led to believe that the measure which was under discus-
sion was one fur the abolition of the Irish Church, if not for
the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. He
(Lord Jocelyn) looked upon this measure in no such light.
He looked upon this measure as a measure of justice and true
policy. He felt some difficulty in addressine. the House in a
debate which had lasted upwards of four nights, for
he felt that every argument had been put for-
ward both in support of, and in opposition
to the measure. But he felt, at the same time, that in the
position in which he was placed in Ireland, and considering
those with whom he was connected, he was called upon to
state the grounds upon which he gave his warm and cordial
support to the measure which had been proposed by his Right
Hon. Friend. His supporting this measure was' not incon-
sistent with his previous course. The very first vote which lie
had given in that House, and the first speech which he had
addressed to it, were in support of the grant to Maynooth.
Hon. Gentlemen had taxed his Right Hon. Friend, with whom
he had the honour of acting, of changing his principles on
this Bill. But it was an extraordinary fact, that
during the whole course of this debate, not a single
expression of his Right lion. Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment had been brought forward in proof of this asser-
tion. When his Right Hon. Friend came into office, he
declared that he felt Ireland would be his greatest difficulty.
He subsequently dec!ared that it was his intention to con-
duct the Government of the country firmly but justly, and
in a spirit of conciliation.—( Hear.) A short time after
his accession to office an agitation broke forth in Ireland,
which was likely to lead to a dismemberment of the empire,
and his Right Hon. Friend, without having recourse to any
new measure for the suppression of that agitation, effectually
put it down by the existing law. That agitation having been
put down, his Right Hon. Friend in order to keep his pro-
mise of conciliation which he had made, brought forward the
present measure.—( Hear, hear.) For himself, even if he had
not long ago formed his opinion on the merits of this measure,
the arguments which he had heard during the present debate
would have led him to the conclusion to which he had already
arrived as to its justice and policy. He would appeal to any
person connected with Ireland—he would appeal to his Noble
Friend the Member for Bandon, whether the political evils
of Ireland might not be traced to their religious prejudices? He
therefore thought it a wise and sound policy to endeavour
to connect the people to the State by the ties of gratitude.
Seeing that there were seven millions of Roman Catholics in
Ireland, that their priesthood had the greatest influence over
them, whether for evil or good, it appeared to him to be sound
y to show that they sympathised with their wants by im-
provingpo policy the
hear.)
peoplelr.) If Ire-
land
the
looktleied cgronitdhitisoon
mofuchthurseesupepcotn.
Hon. Member for Newcastle had not commenced his speech
respect.—(lleac,
by saying that he was opposed to the measure of his Right
lion. Friend, he ( Lord Jocelyn) would be led to believe that
he was a supporter of the measure, for his arguments were
rather in favour of it. He admitted that there was a certain
degree of compact, that there was no new principle involved,
for the principle was admitted in reference to their policy to-
wards the Roman Catholics. With regard to the analogy
:which the Hon. Gentleman drew from the conduct of Prussia,
he did not thiak that it applied, for the people of this country
world not submit to have their children educated by the State.
But with respect t
regard to the brilliant did not think the to the system of ecclesiastical education, he
the Member for Edinburgh, different
in eHon. Gentleman would contend that it was
tleman had no nrgh,
Prussial.a front what it was in Maynooth. With
Right Hon. Friend, speech of the Right lion. Gentleman,
he thought the Right Hon. Gen-
,foundationf in justice for his taunts upon his
Gentleman himself, or
rr
to
oe
twheoukdohalpepeLalortdo
tthheatlßieimglhi terliofoor.
ie,thfeiirlohweercsonfs,,lde.red himself responsible for the
opinionsLond on,
ofw hh
ciltiistance, the opinion which were
, baencegaweu e believed it was just,
promulgated at the Corn Exr would
agniav e
that
cor-
dialthie support to the measure
wereo
grin span,
n
andßoman
hat i t
Catholic introduced
priesthood n
years ago, and he
means of
education. He had been in Maynooth two want in
of
the
could confirm the statement which had been made by his It 2' "
Hon. Friend. He felt that those who had been brought upint
that institution, as they were brought up, could not have any
strong feelings of attachment for a State which left them in such
a condition. He believed the religion which he himself pro_
fessed was the true one, and he felt such confidence in its truth
that he had no fears of an additional grant to Maynooth doing
any injury to that religion, while he trusted it would lead to
the happy result of uniting more closely than they had been
heretofore, the Protestants and the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. BRIGHT said he was anxious to say a few words on
this question, because the principle on which he shou!l give his
vote had not et been fully stated to the House, and also be.

muse he believed he would find himself on this ocelsion in the

same lol.by v‘ith those from whose principle. he entirely di:-
,ent, d. And, a.ter the speech of the Notl'e Lord she NTemh, r
tir Bandon, he thxtwht that any man who v Ite on the
same aide with him nuf.zht to explain his ,ronocls for (loin,' go. for
anything more intolerant. he miv,ht say irsane, with remird t o the
poqcv which ought to bo ursued toward Ireland he had never

heard—( Hear)—and he could not believe it till he had heard
it that any person coming from Ireland would have used
such language.—( Hear.) He did not think that this question
should be favourably or unfavourably regarded on account of
the party from which it proceeded. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had been charged with inconsistency with regard to
this measure, but he thought that the grounds for that charge
arose from the unfortunate circumstances connected with the

late Opposition, and which were of such a nature that he could
not, when in power, propose any good measure without
being charged with inconsistency of conduct.—( Hear, hear. )
He ( Mr. Bright) should consider the measure on its own merits,
without reference to party. His opposition to the measure was
grounded on his objection that the public taxes should be made
to contribute to the support of any institution purely ecclesias-
tical, or the rearing of the priesthood of any particular sect.
He opposed it because, from all he could learn from bo•h
sides of the House—from the public press—and even the
organs of the Ministry, there was no argument used in defence
of the present measure which would not be as valid in defence
of further measure=, not for the endowment of the Roman
Catholic College of Maynooth only, but for the endowment
and payment of all priests connected with that Church in
England and Ireland.--(" Hear, hear," and "Oh, oh.") He
admitted that the principle of the argument which justified
the original grant would be good to the same extent to justify
the present vote. The Right Hon. Baronet said the principle
was already conceded, and that the question now was as to a
difference of a few thousands. But in ten or twenty years
hence some Prime Minister would stand up and say
that in 1795 the principle was conceded, a❑d again

in 1845, and arguing from those two case& it wnu'd

be easy to demon‘i'trate that there ought to be the es-
tablishment of a new Church in Ireland, and this adding to the

monstrous evils which had already flowed upon Ireland from
one Church connected with the State.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet paid no great compliment to the Roman
Catholic gentlemen of Ireland when he said that the grant of
9,000/. was sufficient to damp their generosity. If 9,000/.
damped their generosity 27,000/. would be likely to destroy it
altogether ; and when he recollected that the Roman
Catholic gentry in Ireland paid no income-tax—
(Cries of " Hear, hear" )—no property-tax—no assessed
taxes.—( Hear, hear)—He thought that it ought not to be
altogether impossible or unlooked for, that they should support
a college for the education of the priesthood of a religion to
which they were so much devoted.—( Hear, hear.) But he
also objected to the measure in another point of view—a point of
view which was totally opposed to that of the Hon. Member for
Leicester, who approved of the measure because it
would scothe the discontent of Ireland. Did that
discontent arise from the priests in Maynooth
not being sufficiently well educated ? He thought it arose
more from the fact of one-fourth of the population being
paupers, and there being no regular employment. That was
a Cate of things which was most disastrous, and he should not
like a measure which would have the effect of making the
wrongs of Ireland less known to the people of Ireland. One
great means of influence possessed by those who agitated the
wroegs of Ireland was to be found in the support which the
Roman Catholic clergy gave to the various associations which
had for their object the removal of those wrongs. His objec-
tion to the Bill was that it would tame down agitation—it was
a" sop" given to the priests—it was "hush-money," that they
might not proclaim the wrongs of the Irish people to the whole
country, to Europe, and to the world. The Protestant Church in
Irsland was at the root of the evils of that country ; and the
Irish Roman Catholic priests would thank them mere for sweep-
ing out that foul blot than if they established their own church
alongside of it.—(Hear. hear.) They had everything Pro-
testant in Ireland—they had a Protestant clique dominant there
they had a Protestant Viceroy, who distributed all the places
and emoluments of office amongst that clique—they had Pro-.
testant Judges who polluted the stream of justice.—( Cries of
" Oh, oh.") They had Protestant magistrates, before whom
iti a thousand cases no Catholic peasant could hope for justice.
—(Renewed marks of dissent.) They had Protestant ex-
terminating landlords, whose extermir ating principles chiefly
fell upon the Roman Catholics upon their estates.—(No, no.)
They had more than that—they had a Protestant soldiery who,
at the beck and command of a Protestant priest, killed a son
even ,n the presence of a widowed mother.—(" Hear, hear,"
and marks of disapprobation.) Why, these things were
notorious —he merely stated them without bringing
any proof to establish their accuracy—(Hear, hear)—
but the person who was not convinced of their truth
must have paid very little attention indeed to passing events.—
( Hear, hear.) The consequence of all this was, the extreme
discontent of the people of Ireland; and because they were
not prepared to take those measures which would be really just
towards Ireland, and do away with that Protestant Establish-
ment which was certainly the most disgraceful institution which
existed in Christendom. Because that House was not pre-
pared to do that, it was going to muzzle the watch-dogs of the
people, and to take from Mr. O'Connell the sympathy of the
priests, in rousing the people of Ireland to a sense of their
wrongs. They were going to give the priests of Ireland a
little more of Latin and of Greek, in order that they might
become as tame as the priests of Suffolk and Dorset, who.
when the horizon was blazing around with incendiary fires,
had not dared to speak of the wrings of the
people amongst whom they lived. (Hear. hear. )
And when pauperism was staring them in the face, the priests
would not dare to assist in wresting from an oppressive Go-
vernment those rights to which the people had a just claim.
He objected altogether against the system of paying priests
for any purpose, under any circumstances, or at any time what-
ever. Nothing could be more disastrous to civil liberty—
nothing more injurious to religion itself, than such a system ;
and if they wanted to make the Catholic priesthood of Ireland
as useless for all practical purposes as the paid priests of their
own Establishment, he asked them, by all means, not only to
give this 26,000/. a-year, but as much as the Government
could induce the House to grant. His firm conviction was
that Ireland suffered from one Church, and not from
having two churches. He admitted that equality must
be obtained by the abolition of one or by the establish-
ment of the other, for whilst there was a Church with
a small congregation and overpaid ministry, costly establish-
ments and little work, it was impossible they could have peas..
and contentment in that country. But this measure, not with
standing all that had been said by Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
was for the purpose of staving off the nece sity to which they
had nearly arrived, of making some change in the Establish-
ment. If it were possible to give to the Catholic priests a por-
tion of the public funds, as they had already given the regium
donunt to the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, they
would find them united with the Established Church, as the
Presbyterians then were, against any step taken for the pur-
pose of overturning the whole system of Church and State in
that country. He was of opinion that the experience of a
State Church was net of that favourable character
which would admit of their going further in that
direction.—( Hear. ) They had a State Church in this
country, and many excellent men were connected with its
ministry, but from time immemorial a spirit of persecution,' of
a most deplorable and inju ious character, had existed, and
even now did exist, pressing with relentless malignity, as in
the case of an unfortunate shoemaker in Cambridge, who re-
fused to pay, out of his hard earnings, some 16s. or 183. for
Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.) This poor man was pursued
from court to court with a relentless spirit, which, one would
hope, did not exist at this period. Sore lion. Gentlemen
applied hard words to the Catholic Church, but they should re•
collect that all the errors which they attributed to it, found a
home and a warm welcome in the Established Church. In Wales,
three-fourths of the whole people were dissenters from that
Church. In the manufacturing districts of Lancashire and York-
shire, the Established Church was but an unwieldy machine,
unable to minister to the growing wants and intelligence of
the people. In Scotland, where the most perfect model of a
church establishment was said to exist, they had there a Seces-
sion Church—a Relief Church—a Free Church, and that which
the State upheld by compulsion—the Residuary Church. If
the English, and Scotch, and Irish Churches of this description
did so little good—if they had been productive of such serious
evils, he would ask whether it was proper they should do any-
thing for the establishment of another? If he were at all in
favour of this endowment, he would vote for this Bill with all
his heart. He believed that if the principle of endowment
was right, a. more just or wise measure than the present wa,
never introduced to the Parliament of this country—
( Hear, hear)--because he had no doubt that the effect
must be in some degree to create a kindlier feeling
on the part of the people of Ireland towards the Government.
—( Hear, hear. ) He regretted as much as any man could
regret that there should be anything in the agitation against
the Bill that tended to impair that feeling.—(Hear, hear.)
There were two parties opposed to it. One party represented
by lion. Gentlemen on the other side of the House—they
stated that they considered the Catholic faith as a thing which
should net be established, or helped by the State ; but when
their own Church was absorbing millions of the public money,
whilst millions of their countrymen refused to enter its doors,
he asked how could they for a moment object to the passing of
this measure which would give some sort of show of assistance
ti that Church in Ireland to which millions of the people of
that country belonged ? There was another party of non-eon-
formists in Great Britain who were opposed to the measure,
and he was sorry to say (it would be uncandid of him not to say)
that these non-conformists allowed a spirit to enter into their
agitation, which showed they did not understand, or did not
feel, the force of that great principle of nonconformity for which
their forefathers struggled.—( Hear, hear.) A large class,
more especially a portion of the Wesleyan body, did not re-
pudiate the principle of endowment ; if those who remained
persisted in agitation, it ought to be against the principle of en-
dowment altogether. When the Dissenters looked back to all
their forefathers had suffered, even within a late period, they
would be so recreant to their own principles as to merit the
contempt of this House, and of the world, if they did net come
forward and apply their own principle, and dissent from and
oppose, to the utmost of their ability, the measure now
under the consideration of Parliament. He (Mr.
Bright) would oppose the measure in every stage,
simply on this ground, that he believed the principle of endow-
ment' was most unjustifiable and injurious to the country.
Whatever might be the effect of his opposition on any Govern-
ment—whether on that of the Right Hon. Baronet, or any pre-
ceding or succeeding one—there was no attachment to party or
Government whichwoul.l induce him for one moment to tam-
per with what he held to be the greatest and dearest principle
which any man or body of men could take up.—( Hear, hear. )
When he looked back at history, he saw that all they possessed
of liberty did not issue from the portals of cathedrals and parish
churches, but from the conventicles ; and when a good and
liberal measure was to be carried in the House, it was generally
carried by the representatives of the non-conformists of Great
Britain. They must see from the past and the present, that State
religions ha I been always opposed to civil and religious liberty;
that they, in a great measure, destroyed the vitality of religion ;
and, holding these opinions, it was impossible he could give a
vote which should in the smallest degree give any assistance to
the principle of endowment. In conclusion, he would say to
the Dissenters of England that in all opposition to this or any
such measures they should form no union—make no alliance
with men in favour of endowment—they should stand on the
great, pure, and unassailable principle of non-endowment ; for
that they should manfully contend ; and if they continued to do
so, the time might come—nay, the time would come—when
that principle would be adopted by the Legislature of the
country.—(Choers. )
enrnv ma
tei
on
nc es staiyat,iingt.a,utehnaftr
from
the lion. Member who had just sat down as strong as if they
L wouldor
‘lhjaOvelicNonsildArNedNtEhße list awlbirch
had proceeded from any other Member. He confessed he
thought the epithet insane did not apply with any great jus-
tice ; and he felt surprised that, even from the Hon.
Member for Durham, such expressions should issue, as that
history informed them the liberties of this country had pro-
ceeded from conventicles, and not from the portals of cathe-
drals.—( Hear, hear.) What did the English nation owe to
conventicler ? Was it from the conventicles that Megna
Charta had sprung ?—( Hear, hear.) lie could not, however,
congratulate the Right Hon. Member for the University
introducem ent
that;
of 'Oxford upon this.—( Hear, hear, from Mr. Shed)
iir eel awn
would
'uls: eshuebopunptacosher
He was one of those few Members who, in 1841,
I the
affairs of Ireland had been discussed-at great length, had ex-
,: as i
o,
vnS,
st ahfftahod:r dn,
Pressed an opinion that remedial measures should be applied to
reachedtod Tbyyraictosinnnieimemlb; mightteosr_rof(a.i_tih,P.eaw:G.th,teohnveerano-
-"although the Government now introduced this measure.
theßill, and was • •
willing to share in the
odium which at present
he was willing to share inw
was poured upon the Government—
which the Government the disadvantages and all the un-
popularitynment incurred—( Hear, hear) on