The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-23 00:00:00

ttlgiers..,a and the French Consul was of a trifling nature. his popularity with the French people when he next
,n,..11 t was the origin of that between France and visited Paris, without losing his patriotism in the House
'•u•oroeco ? That Ab7l-el-Fader, the hero of the desert, of Commons.—(Laughter.)
had, sought refuge in the country of the Emperor, having Mr. SHEIL—I did not "sneer. I said nothing.
been driven from his own dominions ; the Arabs of that j Sir R. PEEL knew that the Right Hon. Gentleman
nation, feeling tale combined influence of nationality and said nothing, but the Right Hon. Gentleman was natu-
lehaion, cherished him, and this was the casts belt. But rally so eloquent, that a shrug of his shoulders or a
had they not reason to he k with caution on the shadows . sneer on his face was as expressive.as language from an-
esiiieh events were casting before them, and by which other.—(Laughter.) Monsieur Guizot had declared in
the Mediterranean was now darkened ? It was manifest the French Chambers that the French Government had
-that the same course -would be pursued in. Morocco ! no views of conquest with regard to Morocco—they
regarding our cernmerce as was pursued in Algiers, if the had no views of territorial aggrandisement, as the terse-
French gained posse ,sion over it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. j tory of Algeria was quite sufficient for France. He said
zleGregor, in the second volume of his statistics, gave the , that they disclaimed cherishing any views of the sort, but
strength and power of Morocco, and the commerce of this ' they merely demanded from the Emperor of Morocco
country with it. England, in 1839, exported to Mo- that they should live in peace and their frontier be
rose" 299,0001. 163 English vessels were, in that year, secure. They demanded that the assembling of troops by
employed in the exportation to Morocco ; whilst in that the agents of Morocco or Abd-el-Kader should be pre-
sP.'ne year, only 12 of their vessels were engaged in the vented, that those officers who, contrary to the rights of
!aloe trade. He did not ask the English Government nations, had attacked them, should be recalled and
to question the policy of the French ; but he wished to punished, and that if the Emperor of Morocco were do-
eintier.,tand what precautions or steps the British Go- sirous of giving an asylum to Abd-el-Kader, he should
v rnment had taken, and whether our force in the be directed to repair to the interior or to the
Mediterranean. was equal to what it was on former occa- sea-coast, and that a fixed residence should
stons when its weakness was made the object of cen- be assigned him, and that guarantees should
sure, In IS3B, the Duke of Wellington, whose autho- be given that from a friendly state he would not direct
rity nas great on naval as well as on military questions, his attacks on another friendly state. Such were the
Per mare nut terra, being in opposition, said the fleet intimations given by the French Government in the
was not sufficient. He (Mr. Sheil) naturally looked to most frank and unreserved manner. The Right Hon.
what the state of the British fleet in 1838 was in the Gentleman had adverted to the state of their naval force,
Mediterranean;—sh;ps of the line 18, frigates 29, sloops and taunted them with their leaving it neglected. There
?Y, brigs 29, war. steamers 22. The Duke added that was no doubt, that seeing the revenue of the country was
there. should be a squadron ready for any emergency ; and insufficient to meet the expenses of the country, they
!lie present Prime Minister of England expressed himself thought it right to husband the public money as much
to a similar effect. What was the state of the British as possible ; but he thought that they had not neglected
navy in
; 1541 when the Whigs left offices It was as the exigencies of the public service. In 1838 (he was
4)11°,,s :--Ship of the line, 26 ; frigates, 36 ; sloops, now speaking of grants for the efficient service
40 ; brigs, 37 ; armed steamers, 22 ; other war vessels, of the navy, discarding the estimate for the packet ser-
-3,- Now let them compare the state of the navy in vice and the revenue service)—in 1838 the estimate for
:841; when the W lugs left office, with what it is in this effect of the naval service was 3,085,0001. Last year
1844, when the Tories are in :—Ships of the line, 9 ; it was 4,400,0001. The estimates for the last four years
frigates, 32 ; sloops, 34 ; brigs, 3! ; armed steamers, had been larger than for ten years previous, though it
32 other .
, vessels, 10. What was the answer the Go- was true they had not maintained the same number of
vernment returned in the other House of Parliament ships in commission. Yet this country would be enabled
when asked why there was not a greater naval force in in a short period, and with the consent of that House,
the Mediterrenean, there being four French ships of the to make a naval demonstration worthy of its great fame
line and frigates capable of containing 12,000 men as a naval power. They had voted 33,000 seamen and
there ? Th Earl of Haddingtou replied that unfor- marines. When the naval estimates were under consi-
!ately a concentration of naval force was required on deration, the Gallant Commodore opposite said that
the coast of Ireland. He did not contend with the Earl though there was a number of ships in commission in
of Raddington who had been transferred from the care the Mediterranean, they were not properly manned. He
of the Orange flag to that of the Union-Jack. He did said this to shew that the number of ships in commis-
slc•t complain of Lord Haddington's desire to keep a sion was not a proper estimate of naval strength.
strong force
Policy which perverted the affections of a people who, in commission, well manned and appointed, and yet
llieler different treatment, would be a bulwark of strength they might be more strong in naval power if they had
;instead of a source of weakness.—(Hear.) He would say had more ships, but not so effectually manned. The Right
~()thing against the French, who were a noble, high- Hon. Gentleman called for an account of the fleet: he
minded people ; nor against that Minister of France, hoped no Hon. Member would second him on such a
,lo was even pre-eminent among those gifted men by motion. He had now stated all that he considered it ne-
? orn he was surrounded, not only for his great genius, cessary to say with respect to the motion of the Right
Intelligence, thought, and writings, but for honour and Hon. Gentleman. He had attempted to show, that if, in
honesty,—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman 1841, they acquiesced in the continued occupation of
then vindicated the conduct of Lord Palmerston, who, it Algiers by France, theyhad acquiesced in consequence of
icwas said, had compromised the interests of England. the course of society, and in consequence of the preced-
e Was happy to witness so much profession of diplomatic ing acquiescence of their predecessors, which he did not
endearment, but he could not discover that anything blame; but, in giving that acquiescence, it
Material had been gained. On the contrary, it would was expected that France would state that
aPPear that the right of search, which had been once it would not extend its conquests to Tunis or Morocco.
eoincoded by M. Guizot to this country, had been recently That declaration had been made. The Noble Lord must
withheld
thheld ; fur had not British influence been lost in recollect that this question of Algiers had been discussed
t9Fain ?—had die Escurial become an appurtenance of when he was Foreign Secretary; and if he (Sir R. Peel)
e Tuileries ?—(Hear, hear)—and in barbarious appeared rather backward in giving information on this
"'cites had not the power of England been reduced to subject, it must be remembered that he was only fol-
the," vanishing point. ?"—(Hear, hear.) He had done. lowing the example that had been set him by the Noble
The,._ Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for a Lord. He was of opinion that it would be inconsistent
Turn, showing the amount of British ships in the Me- with the duty of a Minister to give up any
t corre-
rerranean in July, 1844, and also that the new scale of spondence that had taken place between this Govern-
ales imposed on English shipping and English manu- !pent and that of Morocco on this subject. He trusted,
c'efurt s in Algiers be laid on the table of the House. upon consideration, that the Hon. Gentleman would
Sir C. NAPIER seconded the motion. allow the motion to be negatived. If he (Sir R. Peel)
serve upon the expressions of regret of the Right
had spoken with reserve on this question, he hoped the
Sir R. PEEL commenced by sa ing that he would not
House would consider the difficulties in which he was
It
°ln Gentleman, who said he felt himself compelled by placed. He had been anxious to avoid the expression
of any opinion which might tend to diminish the autho-
NQ did of duty to brine forward the present motion.
rity of this country to maintain an honourable peace.
Gentleman
did not think it was at all prudent in the Right Hon.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that so far as his own
„entleman to brint, forward the motion at a time when
views and intentions were concerned, he should not have
'eu.P7 were sluing *all could to resent any hostile
made any motion on this subject, and considering the
might between France and MorocPco—anything which
-"ght be injurious to the integrity of Morocco, or com- present state of affairs with respect to France and Mo-
Protnise the political or commercial interests of the rocco, he would have waited before he asked for further
ticmn try. He must say that the discussions in this and information from the Government. He thought, how-
ever, that as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend had
t,e, Other Ilouse of Parliament had, by exciting the
im- judged it expedient to make the motion, it was but jus-
,e,'lngs of the people of the two countries, greatly
red the efforts of the Governments of France and rice in him to state that nothing could be more tempe-
rate than the motion, and nothing more guarded than
,ngland.—(Hear, hear.) He would not of course im-
the language that had been employed. He thought the
pate to the Right Honourable Gentleman any desire to
Right Hon. Gentleman had misunderstood his Right
ctir up those feelings of enmity, or embitter animo-
Hon. Friend on this subject. His Right Hon. Friend
Gentlemanle'• He must of course acquit the Right Honourable
had made a statement with regard to what took place in
c.. but he must say that no course was more
1830 as to the occupation of Algiers, but the Right Hon.
calculated to promote those evils than that which the
Gentleman said now, was it intended, that having been
14!ght Hon. Gentleman pursued.—(Hear, hear.) The
letht Hon. Baronet then alluded to the terms of the out of office since 1841, they should now insist
°Jelginal motion, which he supposed the Right Hon. upon the evacuation of Algiers ? The Right Honourable
Gentleman was an able debater when he bad to deal
a P•ttemen had changed in consequence of his (Sir
with substantial:arguments, but, singular to say, when
''''..) mert Peel's) observations, on Friday night,
he had to deal with shadows he em.
Plc
greater force
sTsthe extraerdinary nature of that motion. The Right
'unGentleman had moved for a Select Committee to than with substantial arguments. I.hey
dhadFnever
Inquirecome
under what circumstances the French had be- thought
respect it dteosirtabbele
possession
s ems make
of Algiers.
onrb
They
ait,tacc7
French conquest
of Algiers, and how far the extensian of "
uwpon on or more occasions asked for explanations with
This
countrywiththethisof
. Why, what would . saidregard to Tunis and Morocco ; and assurances on that
.• Select Conamittees were appointed in the French .
,cambers subject had been assure which were considered satisfac-
v. .nbers to inquire how far our conquests in Hong-
tory, and those nces had been renewed. Under
irng were consistent with French interests.—(Hear,
those circumstances he should not have felt called upon
ti'ar.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then explained the
to ask for any further information on the subject.
attire of the communications which had taken place
between Lord Stuart de Rothesay and the Prince de He thought that the demands made by France
-!elignac on the invasion of Algiers by the French under on the Government of Morocco were but
Charles the Tenth, in which the Prince gave full assur- fair. They involved, however, several most im-
aneer t., the English Minister, after the success of the portant questions ; and if those demands were
nFotenteheh arms there, that acquisition of territory was
not complied with, then came the question, how the war
object of French invasion, but redress for an was to be carried on ? Considering the complexion
injury, and there was every reason to place the fullest c affairs had taken, he was not disposed to press the Go-
redit on that assurance. In July, 1830, the Bourbons,
vernment as to their policy on this subject. There was
Party in France that had a blind partiality.. to war, not
and the Conservative
out of office a few Government which went hope of keeping up the dignity and honour of
cognised the Government s7rlo3mar any
ofafter at once re-
France, but merely from a love of war itself. The pre-
L'ouis Phillippe.
A new dynasty was placed on the Throne with the good- sent Government of France had manfully opposed itself
will of the French people. The continental Powers were to that desire among its own people, and such being the '
Wavering as to the course which they should pursue • case, he (Lord J. Russell) would be the less disposed to
and this country Sevin.. that the will of the French press upon the Government the making of statements
P.eople was unequivocally expressed as to the change of that might be grating to the French people. While he
dYnasty, gave an example to the continental Powers, and would not press the Government to give any answer
recognised the change which took place. The Right with respect to questions on which they might be en •
Gentleman would advise them to take that oppor- waged in diplomatic negotiations with France, yet he
tu.ni'Y of obtai ing•satislictory explanations from France 'thought the Government were not justified in the line
with, regard to etigiers. Communications had passed on they had taken with respect to naval defence. It was a very
Inset subject between the British and French Govern- different thing to say that the House of Commons should
Mtnts after that event. Lord Aberdeen moved for the interfere to control the negotiations with foreign powers,
correspondence in the House of Lords in 1832, when and to say in what manner the supplies that had been
i,t,Lord_ G rey was at the head of the Government, but, at cheerfully voted had been applied by the Minister of the
Crown. The Right Hon. Gentleman had upon this oc-
tr request of Lord Grey he withdrew his motion, On
17 15th of November, 1830, Lord Grey came into office casion renewed his protest against being asked concerning
wit_h both the Noble Lords whom he saw opposite. They the naval force of this country. Why such questions
were consonant with precedent. In the times of Chat-
at in possession of power for eleven years ; they had
ham and of Pitt they were constantly put, and the late
„ the facts before them ; and yet they acquiesced in
Government was constantly exposed to such questions.
(l_military occupation of Algiers by the French.—
Some time since, he (Lord John Russell) stated that he
4 ear, hear.) No remonstrance was made against that
thought it much better to have a sufficient force ready
ireuPatien. They stated that "if the conquests of the
than to send one out in cases of emergency, and upon
it each in Africa were limited to the territory of Algiers;
that occasion he was met by a joke from the Right Hon.
nlw(4dd not endanger the harmony and good understand.
Baronet. Was it to be said that the House was to grant
11, g which existed between the British and French Go-
money, and they were not to ask how it was spent ?
Ge.rhments." He did not mean to blame the late
For himself he was one that would not con-
k for that, seeing how desirable it was
sent to such a doctrine. Now, what was the
lir, maintain the government of Louis Phi-
ril'' in France, and that the demand for state of the navy of this country in 1838,
and at the present day? in'lB3B, there were eighteen
Otte9tilling the engagements of Mons. Polignac would ex-
line-of-battle ships, while in 'July,lB44, there were only
lu irritable feelings on the part of the French people.
nine. In 1838 there were twenty-nine frigates, when at
set did not the acquiescence in the possession of Algiers
the present time there were thirty-two. The total num-
-4" the French, for eleven years, make the greatest diffe-
ber of line-of-battle ships in 1838 was one hundred and
ee-t,!e" in that question.—( Hear, hear.) And the late Go-
thirty-eight, now there were only thirty-six. If it was
po.lltnent had notice of the intention of France to keep
found that ships should all have their regular comple-
h ssesson of Algeria ; for, in answer to a question put
ie Marshal Clausel to Marshal Soult, in 1833, in the meat of men, was it not, he would ask, equally right that
they should have a sufficient number of "ships? That
G4-eneli Charnbere, Marshal Soult said that the French
might increase the estimates, but that could not be
ei:verntnent were in favour of the colonisation of Alge-
helped. In 1838 there were seven line-of-battle ships in
gi• ; that up to the present moment they had not the
w'bghtest intention of evacuating Algeria, and that the the Mediterranean. In 1841, seventeen. In 1844, one,
and at the present moment there were only two line-of-
pi'a°le course of their conduct showed that they contem-
batle ships in the Mediterranean. So that, at the pre-
tiottkecl its permanent occupation, and that they had
sent moment, they had only two line-of-battle ships at
di-s,"mg to fear from any one who might meditate their
e,lurbance. The British Government were, therefore, their disposal. Now he would put it to any Hon. Mem-
ber whether that was sufficient for every emergency ?In !
ere Of the intentions of France as to the retention of
1838 his Hon. Friend, the Member for Halifax, in pro-
it. genria, and yet they made no remonstrance against
posing the estimates for 1839, thought right to go at
11 ,zut, considering the position of Louis Philippe,
considerable length into the subject, into rder to show
tad not think the Government of Earl Grey or Lord
that there was a sufficient force at that time. .
parson had acted unwisely in agreeing in the occu-
His opinion was opposed by several Hon. Members, who
tes";" of Algeria. They made no remonstrance, and
denied that the force was then sufficient. If it was not
ell."'" Consul now, as formerly continued, to act under
so then, what, he would ask, was the state of things at
ter. exequatur. The Right Hon. Gentleman then re-
the present moment ? The present was a Parliamentary
eosin `e to an ordinance of the 16th December last, im-
irnr,4 a. duty on the introduction of British goods, and question, and one which it competent to
Members who had voted money waway to bring forward.
and discriminating duties with regard to British
The complaint was not that the Government had not
most,Fre ships. This ordinance was not directed
a laritieh ships in particular, but against those of taken a sufficient sum as an estimate for the naval force,
that her nations ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman said but the people having this burden to bear, having these
taxes to pay, ventured to ask if, in return, they had a
tetr, tnn important thing was the principle of the ordi-naval power sufficient to meet any emergency. There
foreee• But he would prove that was decided long be.
were other questions he might ask with respect to the
kr naval estimates, but he should be told perhaps that the
Sir • SHEIL—In 1835.
reen_,IZOBERT PEEL—Yes, the Right Hon. Gentle- most proper time to do so was at the time they were
proposed. They had perhaps granted them with too
ape °id nut allude to the ordinance of 1835 in his
ee little inquiry, but when they came before the House
Air.
SHEIL—They are two distinct facts. again they might perhaps have some questions to ask
Of Sir
18:,ROBERT PEEL said he admitted the ordinance as to what wasbest to be done with respect to the building
of new ships. It would perhaps be necessary to ask what
the „',3 Was more important, but as to its wording and
large ships were ready to be brought forward, or ready to
of 11.'neiple involved, it was the same as the ordinance
Pow~3. He deeply regretted the exercise of this
be launched.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very glad if
',5
the Secretary of the Admiralty would be able to give a
11
to the
°Y the French, 0
French Government.—(Hear.)arid that re yet
Then theet had been siified
Right satisfactory answer to this question ; but he had heard
k. 'Gentleman paid a great compliment to the statements which led him to doubt very much whether
,).-
Rae ,of the French and the French people ; he would be able to do so. But with respect to the
question before the House, it was totally distinct from
Would"," said he was afraid the same course
that of foreign negotiations ; at the same time, he be-
Pass„_,°e Pursued with regard to Morocco which was
lieved that the objection stated by the Right Hon. Ba-
nll ""1 with respect to Algiers. The Right Hon. Gen-
eql, ,
roost was well founded—that although there might not
HQ ' had a great advantage over him in this respect.
fs,,,e,')_uld not speak his opinions with that latitude and be any. positive danger, perhaps hardly any inconve-
km "41 which he could indulge in with regard to inter- nience in granting the information called for, yet it
ereekP°lities for after the experience of the last six might be made a bad precedent at another time, when
vokin he found that he could not do so without pro- it might be desirable not to give on authority a state-
Jeetiug of the destination of any particular force. That
Thateler.e.g the French Government to taunts that they feelings amongst the French people, and sub-
were objection, therefore, applying to any Government, and
ketit instiuments in the hands of the British Govern- any House of Commons, would, he hoped, have weight
with his Right Hon. Friend, and that he would not press
Itight and subjecting them to such accusations as the
Qeseete"4"ll. Gentleman had directed towards the British for the production of the information. But he must say
elasarnment•—(Hear, hear.) But they had public de- that, with regard to negotiations, he should not be at all
of Lo 1", made in the face of Europe, and if they were influenced by any clamours that might be raised as to
nate, ".'ad—if there ,vas no respect for national
had
battes would have` very little effect. Declarations In England the Government were charged with neg-
vet. een made in the face of Europe by the French Go-
n ee
sesitisil7 similar to what had been notified to the the French Government was subjected to the same
Pro,2,„Pnvernment, that the French had no desire to charge. He should be disposed to pay but little atten-
to vu to
maintainhostilities—that they were most anxious , tion to these statements, nor would they be sufficient to
or eo.ct ip, peace, and had no national cause of war ' .induce him to take any step to interfere with negotia-
tilen. 'l4ll sit Moroeco. He saw by the Right h ' h bpending. But • b
tons t at mig t e with regard to the
Aster
lt_Gentleman that he distrusted these statements. position of the country generally, he did think that suffi-
t4 icin v elaborate compliments which he had paid to I cient attention had not been paid to the state of the
not thiti of the French and to the French people, he did 1 navy.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier.) He thought
Right 4' no Ought to sneer at those declarations. The ! there had been a culpable neglect, and he should wish a
alon• Gentleman seemed desirous of maintaining i sufficient force maintained to support the dignity of the
nation, and to avenge any insult.