The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-11 00:00:00

..T.11.7t. .-4.-(J:si/A;0:-N-Ji Ow4i-.-T-..p.A T ti R.D.AO..tf

or enterprise of the mill-owners and master_manufac-
turers was in the least impair( d by the change, but on
the contrary the number of mills had increased from
344 in 1819 to more than a thousand in 1826. It should
be also recoliected that the Ten Hours' Bill was sup-
ported
by a great number of ma=ter manufacturers both
in that House and out of it.—(Hear. hear.) In Parlitt-' •
ment might' be not comment upon the lion. Members for
01,iharn, tor Ashton, for Blackburn, and for Salford,
and out. of the House there were some. of the most ex ,
tensive-tuanufaeturers in England avowed supporters of.
the Bill. (The Noble Lord then quoted the names of
several eminent master manufacturers supporters of the
Ten Hours' Bill. amongst whom he relied with especial
force on the support of Messrs. Kenworthy and Har-
greave, as t eing, from the ext. nt of their trade, business,
and their long and practical exp rience, eminently
well qualified to form a judgment.) He did
not think a ' great deal of reliance could be
placed upon the calculations of Mr Senior; many of
them he could . prove to be inaccurate. A letter had
some time since appeared in the Bolton Free Press, from
a Mr. Theme: (a- we understood), which disproved
many of Mr. Senior's tatements. The writer was un-
doubted!v a man of gr. at experience and information—
he stated that the last hour in the twelve hours of labour
in fiictories, IA as, from the exhaustion of the operatives;
p-,rticulary as reg,:rd, d children, the most unproductive
in quantity, and the most unsatisfactory in quality of the
whole t,‘, lye. The twelfth hour he said produced more
spoiled work than any other two hours in the day, and
any man conversant with the business, could tell upon
the cloth that portion of its material that was manufac-
tured during the last hour of labour.—(Hear, hear.)
That restriction in the hours of labour was injurious to
the operative, or to the trade generally, was contradicted
by the whole history of the cotton trade. Was it pos-
sible—was it prohable—that British industry, which had
reached such a height of excellence—that the energy
and enterprise of the British people, which was so re-
nowed—that all that perseverance and inderati--
gability which belonged to them were so dimi-
nished that the subtraction of two hours from the
twelve could be productive of the disastrous results anti
cipated by some Hon. and Right Hon. Members. It
could not be denies that, irrespectively of the detriment
which the proposed alteration was said to inflict upon
trade, it would be in other respects most beneficial.
There was not the slightest doubt but that the social,
moral, and physical conditien of the people would be
thereby greatly benefited.—(Hear, hear.) It was for
Ministers to solve whether it was preferable for the
manufacturirg classes of England to have high wages,
or to increase their domestic comforts, to give them an
opportunity of acquiring moral and literary information,
and to benefit their health. Was it not desirable that
the humble female should be trained to the performance
of those domestic duties which were so necessary in.
after life to make her home and family comfortable?—
(Hear, hear.) Had they not had doctors and clergy-
men of all p-Tsuasions attesting the necessity of such a
change, and entreating the Legislature to adopt it? But,
notwithstanding all these things, the Minister not only
refused to accept of the remedy proposed, but to pro-
pose one himself.—(Hear.) The House was placed in
a curious po.ition. It was summoned to rescind the re-
solution to which it had solemnly and deliberately agreed
—not because any new facts had been furnished—
(Hear, hear)—not bi,cause any additional arguments bad
been adduced in favour of the present system—but
simply because the Minister had declared his hostility to
it.—(Loud cries of ‘‘ Hear, hear.") In fact they were
called upon tosurrender their votes and their opinions,
in order to save the Government.—(Hear, bear.) He
did not think the Minister had any right to expose his
friends to such an alternative, that they must either re-
tract their formerly declared sentiments, or give up the
Government.- It would give him very great pain to
vote against the Government, but he would not shrink;
for a moment, from avowing and maintaining those views
which he had formerly expressed. It had given him
great pain to hear an Hon. Friend of his, who had, on a
former occasion voted for the ten hours' clause, say he
would vote for the Government proposition. Was it
come to this, that great questions were no longer to be
tried upon their merits, but regulated by the will and
fancy of the Government? He felt bound to say that
the conduct of Ministers was rather arbitrary—
he considered that a kind of despotism had
br -eised which might_ prove detrimental

reconimended that several harbours of refuge should be 1341§sible that it could ceMe on that evening he wishe'l
constructed in being]. by which m aes i xleasive ems to suggest that it be ref, rred to a Committee up stairs.
Pleyment a ould be giver toills pe•ede. At th.. time - • Sir- J. GEM" AM said he' would peStpone- the Bill till
of the Union the sum of 500•0001. wasl placed in the Monday, ard.he would then state the course to be taken
handa of a Committee; for the purpose of promoting i til, t lid reepectin2; it.' • . . .
navigation. . Two canals were coestructe.l with thie trio- ' ' IRISH REGISTRATION BILL.
ney, (Inc of which became insolent shortly after its Mr. SHELL -asked the Right 11. et. the Secretary of
!Neste-action, and in the other. the :value of :he steel: fs I State for the Berne Deetarteneet whether 14e infenele,l to
from 110 to 5. The Commission-re •or • Feb is -Wei ks bring • n the Irish Registratien Bill, or *nether it was
in lreland bad. at • present ei, thoiley -in hued to carry abandoned er not ? -
fon the prefects of imrotement which had been set on Sir J. GRAHAM said the Bill was not abandoned,
doable
The harbour o Kiegstoe naa hil.h was a very va-• and that he would move its second reading on ail early
one, was commeeced thirty years ago,
not yet, tt.!ll it was day,' bufthat the alrlY was net yet fixed.—(Lauelner.)
ie
fini-hed.. The oe.st ef this valuable vierk - - . FACTORIES BILL. • -
was 700,000/, t: ':a et pro ent tee ( mendeei, ners The Order of the Day for the third reading of this
forca. rryine..! it 'on it it but -about 8,0001. -in their Bill was than a ad.
hands. Eale iyoure ha, been male to imp.: tve the ea- Mr. M. Flll LIPS et --creed a pstitien from Staley-
vigati" of tie Shannon, bet that ,-iver wes foultd.to h- br dge (es we utelerst s: ) a, nits t a Ten Hems Bill;
:tery difficult i f iaprevement. All the projects which and otethe aiotior ot the Hen. Member the petition was
he had mentioned heti heel set on fee for the purpese - rea.i at length by the clerk at the table.
I.:e4ploying the labeeteng people of Ireland, asd et at Lord HOW ICK presented a petition from the in-
tn • preeent day there a, re more beggars in Ilia.; coun- habitants of Dewsbury, preying that ten hours be the
try than there. , eer Ne: re ; end he thong-lit thtit sense tiriat of labour on fi- e days .11.• the week, and eight hours
§tell' might -to be tekere t• -i-sect Lain tl:0 "calUe of thiS,• the other. lie di4l not inove that t!-..e p aeien be read
and if poss•ble ti, reteedy the rail. All that the n(ob)le at •the .iiilee.- (Laughter.)
Jr
f eland wanted ess ettieleymeet, _tie hesieved ,that •• Mr. DUN( 11\1BE presented a petition, signed by
the Iv,
ant of employment erose in a greact IneraSUre t"r-una 6,00 inhabitants of the boroueh of St, ekport, in fav urof
ehsenteeiste. 'Fliere were - ample Deans inelreland of a-'l'en fleets' Bill. - • • -
ghttig the 1 (-eerie ettileoyment. rlhet. em; lot ment (amid On the questien that the Bill be' ead a third time,
be •und be an • ere • . .-r stn f drain''''''''f the b es,- ' Lord ASHLEY- rose,- Ile s • id, aft: r the three dis-
_ , .0. ; . n. iv, se s. f, ac i . 4,5, . .
.}"Il: h amid arrirOy repay th'• "athlY and the labour. tinet deeleratiens that had bee a made by the House,, he
~, bad havowa he'd wee h bad origiaally eel.? at a penny need not males :ITV, ferther et ,•• . pt,,by iirgument. or per-
';lticre raease ,pou n (1 eteeling per year. Fl 4 trusted suasien;• to ..tais, •ee 1-4. . •i. es. ene us& rstanding of
!,.p. Imreisl,ipe would agree to this motion. the II use e -eel,- .:r eras rilstiect declaratiens, de.
• 'l-s!* peke ttf _WELLINGTON, in opp6sing the mo_ • eided aetualie in three esses, that the period of labour
tl`)ll:rieeir-elese their% Lordships that the Connnissiom should nett amount to tweer, hours, and in two eases
:::1‘ " '' '' al present .sitting, at whose head was. his virtually that the period of labour should not •exceed ten-
'l•-,:. Friene (the Earl of Delon), had taken this very hours. Oil those decisions ihe world, at large expect, d
sil:"et In-0 1; eie e;:ei id.2ration. .The Neble Lord evi that a middle term wou'd have been taken, but her Ma-
(.l, 'lb' wi bed 'lit a sum of moitees should be granted .iesty'stbletisters had refused to consent to that term.
their 1.-",rPese-of•improving the soil of Ireland. rut , They had ievited a reeival of the debate, by calling on
a tquir.-
r. '''' I ordships would remember that to do this would . the •Ilouse to'reverse those decisions, and therefore they.
bete eetefive and ten millions sterling. eess,:e„ly , who stood by the whole• of those decisions, and who
°I. eh a- 906,0001. had been advanced for the improve- - protested against this - novel and somewhat questionable
1, •:e;l! ef sreethaa: „me. for the year as- much as 6,0001. course, were no: to be charged with wearying the atten-
hi'.-tbbeeri 'wed roe this purpose. He wettld remind the ! ton of the Reuse, or wasting its valuable time, if they-
ni let Leal .Opposite that very extensive works were ; did endeavour to urge every argument and move every
• iii e''' •en at present in Ireland. 'There was a railwey ; consideratien that could countervail this prodigious exer-
oiler!'" er coestruction from Deblin to Cashel. and cis ref Ministerial influence and official authority. With
pariir[nneashel to Cork. Two years ago a Bill'passed respect to the moral and physical condition
`and the
providing for the proper drainage of Irelaed, of the people, one way or other, the minds of all were
in .e Commission appoint. d under that Bill was still made up; it was . sten adtnitted by many of their antagonists
bring existence. Money had been granted, and was still that if a reduction if the hours of labourer:mild be effected
pro granted, for this purpose, and he thought this aas without injury to the workman or the master ntanufac-
of Irtelhat Parliament was not inattentive ti the wants curer, it would be desirable to effect it. But they said a
danger would arise to the workmen's interests, and he,
and: Under these circumstances he did not think
Lwould beeho proposed the plan was actually charged with
, • well to -agree to the motion of the Noble
ore. _ being ihuman than those alto resisted it.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was glad to hear But he wished to reject altogether the use of such epi.
that a sum of. money had been voted fl- ihe improve- theta, and he would not in any way retort the impeta.
meat of Ireland. He' was, however, surpri-ed to hear Lion cast open him of malignity and of cant.—(Hear.)
that the Landlord and Tenant Commission had. been In the allele of those debates there was but one
thing that• he regretted ; he
land
to inquire into the means of improving Ire-did- mist deeply regret
'end He had never heard this before. With respect to that be should have been charged with calumniating
the means of improving the whole body of mater—(Hear,improvingthat country, he knew that there
He totally disclaimed that charge.--(Hear, hear.) He
were works which might be commenced in Ireland, the'
construction of which would not cost. the public a single should- be ashamed of himself if' he presumed, either.
shilling, inasmuch as. the works, when completed, would -there or elsewhere, to use such language of a class
return at least six per cent. on the capital expend( d. of men who could boast of as many munificent
- The Earl of.DEVON said, that although he cou'd not and worthy individuals as could -• be pre-
. tuPleort the motion,•yet he was not sorry that the subject sented by any class which ' had ever supported
ad. been brought forward, for he thought it was Cr adorned the institutions of this country.—(Cheers.)
One that could not be toe often brought under their con- Neither, because he addressed himself to a particular
sideretion. Ile admitted that emel4yment was greatly evil was he, to be considered as an enemy to the fan-
... needed- by the people of Ireland, but he did not think tory system. He firmly believed--for he had labori-
; thet such_ a Committee as that which had been moved ously examined many of the mills—that if they re-
.for could remedy the evil colained of. He thought it moved some of .the imperfections of factories they
Would be better for their Lordships to wait until the would become a blessing—if net absolutely, certainly
port Of the Landlord arid Tenant Commission was be- and relatively—to the labouring classes.—(Hear, hear.)
fore Parliament, as he had no doubt.that many sugges- Now, when he first introduced this question, he did not
tons would appear therein, which their Lordships would
touch upon the commercial article, because he did not'
think worthy of being acted upon. consider it necessary in the view which- he took of
The Marquis of NORMANBY rose: to suggest that the question, nor did he consider it necessary now.
as there had been some misunderstandingwith respect to But he owed it to those whose interests
this question, whether it would not be better for the be represented, to show that he had not left any part of
Noble Lord to withdraw the motion which he had made, the question unconsidered; that he had not rushed, like
' Particularly as the ;report of the Noble Lord opposite .an enthusiast, into this career, not caring what conse-
(DeVon) fromehe Landlord and Tenant Commission had quences might ensue from the attainment of ibis
net be. -II 'Una - these circum- end. He said at that time, what he now said,
.. _ _ _

.!en knack to the ouse. ier
stances he did not think that this was the proper time to
press the motion.
Lord CLONCURRY said that after what had fallen
from his Noble Friend, be would withdraw his motion.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Eight.

-tat which was morally wrong could not be politically ,een exert
right ; he had then, and he had still, the deepest to constitutional principles, and which would prove more
conviction that that which was morally right could not fatal to the liberty and independence of that House than
be politically wrong. All that he had read, all the con- any other proceedings which bad ever taken place.—
sideration which he had been able to give to the subject, (Hear, hear.) • It was possible, nay he feared he might
all the intercourse which he bail had with persons who, say it was probable, that Ministers would carry the day,
from their practical exteri• nee, were the best able but how long would that victory last?—(Hear, hear.) It
HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 10. to instruct him, confirmed him in this conclu- they wished their victory to be lasting they must put
•,,Tha SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four sion. And now he must entreat of the House into operation those sentiments which were founded
°.O lock. e ith very much respect, and with very much earnestness, upon humanity and justice. They could not extinguish
' The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir W. Follett) took the that they would be good enough to give him their atten- the feeling of sympathy which was so universally pre-
oaths and his seat for Exeter. tion while he went through a statement which was at all valent for these suffering creatures. A victory opposed
COMMISSION. time, dry, and which would he feared be much drier when to these feeling would be inglorious and short-lived—it
_ The Usher of the Black Hod appeared at the bar, and coming from him, and which was moreeversomewhattrite. might answer present purposes, but would entail tort
The
the House to the House of Peers, to hear her Now, after much inquiry, he could discover no more moil, anxiety, and woe upon their successors. But it
majesty's commission read for giving the Royal Assent than four leading arguments against this measure, and would net rest here ; those feelings which operated so
to certain Bills (tor which see Lords' report).- those arguments were comprised in the petition from powerfully would heighten and extend, they would em-
NEW WRIT FOR SOUTH LANCASHIRE.' 'Manchester. v. hich had been laid onthe table of the House. bitter the present and the prospect of the future. But
Lord F. EGERTON; in moving for a new writ for Those four arguments were that the passing of the Ten he did not despair, he still hoped to see a better under-
''cuth Lancashire, in room of Mr. Wilbraham, deceased, Hours' Bill would cause a reduction of produce—that standing established between the master and the
said he regretted his inability to do adtquate justice to .there would be in the same proportion a reduction in servant, between the labourer and the employer ;he
tie merits of that lamented and respected 'gentleman. the value of the fixed capital employed in trade ; that thought he could perceive a growing desire among the'
f ew, men had more justly earned the good will and kindly there would be a great diminution of wages to wealthy to ameliorate thecondition of the poor, antfa de-
feelings "of all parties, mid he was sure he would be the great injury of the workmen ; and lastly, that termination to promote the public welfareby improvingthe
_,.borne out in dos assertion by Hon. Gentlemen oppo- there would be a rise in prices, and consequent danger condition of the bumbler classes. He had been subjected
tt.,te•—(Loud cries of "Hear hear," from the Liberal from foreign competition. Now, upon these four to much obloquy, and even calumny, but he would still
..ftembers.) - points the commercial argement tested. With re- persevere unremittingly and unceasingly, and he felt
~..*Mr. MARK: PHILIPS fully concurred in what bad spect to the first, he would observe that hitherto convinced that the object for which he was contending
eauen from the Noble Lord who had just sat down with it had been urged that the reduction of the hours must eventually triumph, and that he had lit such a
respect to the .estimable character of the late lamented of labour by one-sixth would involve a reduction candle in England as could never be put out.—(Cheers.)
elpsresentative for South Lancashire, and felt sure that in the same proportion of the goods manufactured. Sir J. GRAHAM could assure the House that after
TA feeling was concurred in by every Hon. Gentleman Was the case so ? Was the reduction in the amount of the speech of the Noble Lord he felt great pain in rising
Oil his (Mr. M. Philips').side of the House.
produce in proportion to the reduction in the amount of to address them. He trusted he would not let fall a
Mr. AINSW ORTH said he should be wanting in the hours of labour ?—(Hear, hear.) He could produce single expression which could be construed into unkind-
respect to the memory of Mr. Wilbraham if ho did not evidence to disprove that position.--(Hear, hear.) In ness or censure, for he believed the Noble Lord was ac-
also render his meed of praise and admiration for that the first place he would read an extract from a letter tuated by the best and the purest motives. So strong
gentleman's high character and feelings.
written to him by a gentleman who employed 1,200 had been the agitation upon this subject, that an address
MANtifIESTER IMPROVEMENTS. hands in his mills.. (The Noble Lord here read an extract had been presented to her Majesty praying that she
Mr. M. PHILIPS obtained leave to bring up the from the letter alluded to, in which the writer stated that would be pleased to remove him, and he had the honour
report from the Committee on the Manchester Improve- a reduction in the hoursof labour to ten hours would only of laying that address himself before her Majesty.—(A
ment (committed) Bill forthwith.
swDarn.seßa OW cause a decrease of 1-12th in the amount of production, laugh.) The address stated that a Minister of the
RING presented a petition against the as the increased energy of the work would make up the Crown was wilfully persevering in a course of
Harbour Bill. ' , difference; and this the writer stated to be the result of his cruelty and injustice towards the poorer and less
On the
Blackburn millowner in a very
motion of Mr. WILSON PATTEN, the own experience.) Another . exten- protected classes. When the Noble Lord first brought
time,
stud
drapaansstiedPreston Railway Bill was read a third sive way of business had stated to him that the mill- his proposition before the House, he urged that it would
owners would lose very little by the reduction of be beneficial to the commercial interests of the country.
yoSrikr R. INGLIS presented petitions from places in' the hours of labour to ten hours.—(Heart
.hear.) But surely if the Noble Lord considered the contrary
s 'Fe in favour of a ten hours' clause in the Pao'. He had, however, not been content with the opinions o.f
lenpfionrimonastisoongaenndereaxllpyereixepnrceessuepdonb);hpiesrssounbs
joeeftt,hehgre greatest
_ not maintain that assertion. Those who thought that
toriee.Bill. The Right. Hen. Gentleman else presented the millowners. lie had sought the opinions of the ope
Petitimas against the union of 'the dioceses of Bangor and rative spinners. He had proposed to the operative spin
St. Asa* ners two questions. The first was, Is the reduction in by adopitnintogrethstescoimurpsreovpordo,psohseodulbayvothtee NwoitbblebLiniord;
butthe
Mr. HENRY BERKELEY presented a petition frm' the•produce in direct proportion to the reduction in the working classes would be better paid, and the manuface
the solicitors of Bristol, complaining of the insufficiency hours of labour? The answer was, Certainly not.— turing
' of the compensation allowed under the Act the 6th of
.(Hear, hear.) He then asked at how much they esti- those who thought that his proposition would have the
Victoria, ;elating to Chancery Reform. mated the reduction of Preduce? Taking the estimate effect only of taking off six weeks from the year should
vote against him. He thought that it could not be
Mr. FERRAND presented two petitions in favour of a in the way most disadvantageous to themselves, they
ten hours' clause in the Factories Bill estimated the diminution would not be more than one• doubted but that a reduction of the amount of work
Mr. AINSI\ ORTH presented a petition from a nu- eighth. He had never heard it argued that a reduction done must be attended with a concomitant reduction of
ges. He was sure that even the Noble Lord himself
rri erous and respectable public meeting at Bolton, in of the time by one-sixth would cause a reduction of one- wa
' favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. ' sixth of the profits. The second argument with which must acknowledge that a loss of one-sixth, of the work-
Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from Kendal, he had to deal. was this, that a reduction would take ing hours must be attended with less to the operatives
praying that if the Ten Hours' Bill passed, there should place in the same proportion of the value of the fixed themselves. The woollen manufactureys of this country
be a reduction of all duties on corn and provisions. capital employed in trade. Now, it was probable that a were exporters to a great extent, and every day they
Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition
rim, the reduction would take place in the value of the fixed were meeting with competition in foreign markets and
journeymen coopers of London, complaining of the ope- capital, but not to the amount supposed, as he would be meeting with rivals. He wished to point out to the
. -ration of the duty on the importation of staves. able to show from a calculation which he had in his House that the price of the home market was materially
Mr. S. WORTLEY presented ' a petition from the hand. (The Noble Lord then read the calculation, which affected by the state of the foreign market, and.
. neighbourhood of Halifax, in favour of the Ten Hours' showed that, owing to *the less amount of oil, candles, with respect to both the cotton and woollen manufac-
. Bill; tallow, coals, and gas, which would be required if the tourers the fact was not to be dissembled that
Lo-rd MARCH presented petitions from Sussex and hours of labour were reduced to ten, the loss of the the present rate of profits was redoc_ed to
Kent, praying for a repeal of the stamp duties on in- fixed Capital would only be the difference of twenty-four the minimum. This fact was amply proved by a re-
surances against hail-storms; also four petitions against per cent., which was the loss when the work was con- ference to the money market. With respect to the
the union of the dioceses of Bangor and St. Asaph.
tinned for twelve hours, and twenty and-half per cent. great increase he could state that the United States,
Sir J. GRAHAM presented nine petitions—to 0 from which it would be if the work was reduced to ten hours.) a few years ago only consumed 160,00.0 bales of
•
133,radford, signed by seventy-four millowners; one from He had this calculation from one ot the most ex- cotton •goods, whilst in the year 1843 the number of biles
!Ashton-under.Lyne, signed by four millowners, em- teniive Manufacturers. of Europe. Those compen. were 325,000, being an increase of 220,000, or about
Phiying 12,741. persons ; one from a town in. York- sating circumstances he had . mentioned he was 200 per cent. This went to show that there was a
• shire, signed by twenty-eight tnillowner, employing convinced would more than counterbalance the great decrease in the price of manufactures, and also
10,000'hands ; one from Oldham, signed by millowners, loss that might arise from the diminution of time. proved the application of increased capital, and the great
ettnploying 8,000 hands ; one from Staleybrldge, signed But the cardinal argument he had to meet was the consequent competition that the manufacturers of this
by millowners, employing 6,600 hands ; one from Brid- alleged diminution which it was supposed would take place country had to meet. Mr. Horner, the inspector of
;port, one from Warrington, and one from Bolton. These from a diminution of time. Many of the statements-of factories, from accurate data, stated that in -the mills
. mine petititions, together with the one he presented this kind were taken from the calculations of Mr. Horner, upon several parts of the Continent, where the law did
from Manchester, were signed by 326 millowners, em- who stated with perfect candour that he derived his not enforce any ' inspection,_ the persons employed- I
Dying 100,000 persons, paying eO,OOO/. a week in wages. statements from the manufacturers, but had never exa- worked as many as fourteen hours a day, and invariably
• ae'd 2,500,0001. a year, and they prayed the House that mined the workmen themselves. The terms e folly" took their meals in the factory . Thate same gentleman
•no iNminution to ten hours should be made in.the time and " nonsense" had been applied to those who denied stated, with respect to America,h it had become a
• of employment, tie such a reduction would be fatal to the that such a result would take place. But no such ex- strong competitor with England, and in many instances
manufactures of the country, and prove detrimental to pectation was ever entertained.--(Hear, hear.) He had the American manufacturers were satisfied to sell
• the manufacturing labourers themselves. Severe said
ear'sso and he had never heerd the operatives say without reference to any profit, in order that they
LANCASTER AND CARLISLE RAILWAY. The ingi of the people were not regulated by might drive the English manufacturers from the market.
Mr. LASS
COURT appeared at the bar, and said that the time they worked, but by the piece, and the sum of He should have no objection to this competition, he
the had been to the House of Lerds, and that their Lord- money which *the workmen received at the end said, if they did not keep one of their hands tied behind
'ships had appointed a conference to consider the amend- of the week he received not for the sixty-nine hours their back.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.) He
dents on the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway Bill. he laboured, but for the pr.oduce of his labour.--(Hear.) heard that cheer from the Noble Lord—be supposed the
Several Members were appointed as a Conference, The operatives were of opinion that by the reduction of Noble Lord referred to the corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.)
and they immediately left the House to meet their Lord. the hours of work they would have increased means of At a proper time and occasion he was quite ready to
After a short time, social and domestic economy, and that a prolongation enter into that argument. When the position of the
shies.
Mr. DOTCOURT returned, and informed the House of the term' of -their working lives would be conferred home and the foreign market should be considered, he
that he had left the Bill, and the reasons of the House upon them. They held that a diminution of the time of should be prepared to contend that a protection for
for disagreeing from their Lordships' amendment, with labour would lead to a rise in price. It had been asserted agriculture was indispensable. But he for the present
the Conference. ' that there would be a diminution of produce in conse- postponed that argument —(A laugh.) It would be
NEW' Conference., OF PARLIAMENT. qUence of working shorter hours. This had -been as- enough if he said this, that supposing, for the sake of argu-
'' Mr. HUME gave notice that he. would put a quell.. serted both in speeches in that House and in evidence ment, that the corn-laws did unduly narrow their produc-'
tion, at an early period, to the Noble Lord opposite, taken before Committees. But when the hours were tive industry, was there common sense, was there common
respecting the expenses of tiseNew Houses of Parliament. reduced hour's 120, from fourteen, fifteen, and even justice, the corn-laws being continued, that they should
. DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL. sixteen ,to twelve holies, this result had proceed' to impose a. penalty on that productive indus-
This Bill was brought down from the House of Lords, not followed. In the years following 1820 the try, by taking one-sixth from the number of hours of
' arid read a first time. iasnEuntviooetnrypotobfsisnti
hbgleel.
niai
ums
saet
importation of cotton wool amounted to 466,000,0001b5., labour ?--(Hear, hear.) But he was proceeding to show
Mr HINDLEY hoped the Bill would not be hurried and the weekly consumption of it was increased-, tmhoapdtreoaodfuricsreeevcieonvintehrdeiunspgtrritycheewoofluolpsdsrotedhrueecadetiemw.
t,hrougo the House, as there was great interest excited while there was no falling off in the aggregate con
sumption. In the years following
,1820 the exports of
in the cou.ntry about it.
Sir. R. p4e;EL said that the Bill was only going unity from this
.country were increased to 46,000,000/. official remain as it was in this respect, and it necessarily fol-
Printed d that the House would have full opportty value. Let them observe what had taken place in other lowed that there must be a reduction of wages. If there
. ,am
of disco
it. countries. In France the importation of' cotton wool in was no reduction of wages, the loss must fall upon capi-
'' o INTERCOURSE WITH CHINA. 1840, as compared with the importation in 1820, had in- tal, and,' the loss falling upon capital, one of two
Mr. HUMS inquired whether there was any aim" creased 162 per cent., and the exportation of cotton menu- things must happen—either that capital would
•' .tion to collect, as speedily as possible, all the factures had increasedduringthesamepeeiodue percent., be withdrawn from the country and embarked in
orders that had been printed and published regulating while in England from 1820, the first year of restriction, to industry of the same kind in foreign countries,
~ . the intercourse of British subjects with the Chinese. 1840, the imports of cotton wool had increased 288 per not subject to the same disadvantages, or, if not abso-
- Sir R.• pREL said Lhat every order and regulation cent., and the export of manufactured cotton had in- lutely withdrawn from the country, parties would retire •
that was necessary on the subject. had been made known. creased 220 per Ilene It could never be imagined that manufacture thisticular branch of industry, and that kind of
. '
pth.oaTati
iheei,nAmerica, a new country with large tracts of fertile land would fall into decay; in either case
SUGAR .0 u 11'4°' , by
oCnHaANCELLOR of the*maeufactures with an old the withdrawal of Ellis capital, a fearful fall of wages
wealthy country like Great Britain. The third point to must ensue.. Supposing that reduction to be only par.
EXCHEQUER said unoccupied. e ould compete in
answer to a question from the Noble Lord-op-gce to state that on ! which he would call the attention of this House, was the -tial, then the question came, to what amount would
Preceding -day, he beg
st 24th instant argument of the. reduction of wages. •In 1818 and 1819, , wages be retlit.ced? The Noble Lord said what was
looking at 'eh; state of public business, tit.
would be the day on which the Sugar :Duties Bill the two yeers immediately preceding the years to which morally wrong could thene politically right. He did
• Would be brought before the House. the restrictionurp the hours of factory labour was im- ' not demur to that; but en the Nehlp fiord rested
.
posed, the wages of the One spinner of cotton were 11.125. the onus of proof that the system of regulation of labour
Mr. ELLIS inqui d whether it was intended to make of the women, 145.; in this country was morally wronge—(Hear, hear.)
partially refined su
any difference in the duties o raw and on cloyed a week, of the coarse spinner,ll. As,
notovithstamaing the But he (Sir James Graham) had yet to learn that
gar, imported from theßritish
. bides? ,
.yeseriction, continued the same. The records of ;leapt it would be possible greatly to diminish, or even
'' co- j and in 1820 and 1821 the wages,
The CHANCELLOR ' CHEQUER said,
of the EX he ot'.
toe (=tory districts, which were most carefully cone at all to, reduce -the general rate of wages -in
e must give the E that he strum':
od, particularly those of Manchester and Dolton, the manefaetpripg distiacts,. 'without producing such
had , on. Gentleman the same answer
already given to other • uiries on the sub- showed !hat hi 1621 and 1822, there were the general poverty, soch physicel dOgraflation, etich ail
similar inquiries on
Jett—that it was better of detail same wages for labour es in the preceding years. a 1160110() Pr all civilised manners .-and habits, as ip
•
till the 'whole • to reserve any question
In fact, net one Of the predictions which had his judgment, would leave those districts jn a state a
, subject was before the House.
PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL of labour that would be
been made on the decline . con- confusion that would tend to throw them back into a
On the motion that the Ord for. the third tient Upon the reetriction of the hours of labour were state of primitive barbarism. Such would be the fecreage
Order of the Day
. , readin ^ verified. It was said that the loss fell on the of 'iO crime, so widely would it spread over the face of the
g or the Factories Bill be read
'Mr. HU,111.6 said that the • ''Billthe ufacturers. Now, even if so, there was quite i country, that it would be disgraceful to the Legislature
stood Prisens Scotland)i man M that the energy that had
on the paper fel-this -,evening; but as it was itn--1 Enough of gat. la • A 0.4.P4.#.P.
a Folic, that 9010 lead t 9 such con.
' • , _ .... • ... ..
.. _ ._,.

sequences, and that did :uothing to prevent them.—
,(Hear, hear:) But whether the loss fell upon capital,
or whether it would fall upon wages, was
a matter to the working classes of comparative
indifference. The great injury and the great loss to
'them would ari,e from the diminished demand fur the
only property they possessed—their labour, and which
must cause a fall in the- amount of the Wages on which
so much of their well being, their virtue, and #eirAap-
piness depended. Th y might talk of confiscation.; 'but,
he must say it,seemed to him that this Act, if it passed,
would be a confiscation of the most wide-spread kind; it
would be a confiscation of the only, property the masses
possessed; it would be a confiscation of one-sixth part
of the working, capital of the country. Many kinds
of confiscation . had had the excuse proffered - for
them, that they were made for the benefit of
others ; but in this case. there was no such excuse. It'
placed in some jeopardy the capital'of the country ; it
plaied in some jeopardy the national prosperity. .What,
then, was the excuse for it to the working classes ? It
was said that'it was calculated to to refit them. 'Nov he
(Sir J. Graham) would be satisfied, if he thought the
matter was enderstood by the working classes them-
selves. What was stated by the Hon. Member for Old-
ham ? No man was better acquainted with the work-
ing classes than the Hon. Member, and he said it had
got into their heads that they ;worked too hard, and pro-
duced too much, and that if, they laboured less profits
would rise, and wages would not fall. NoW he was corn-
pelled•to combat this opinion. He thought that by the
operation of such an .Act, profits could not rise, and
that wages must fall. They had in their heads the in-
verse of that proposition—that prices must rise, and
that wages would rise also. Now he (Sir J. Graham)
held that those who were the leaders of this movement
were more responsible than public men almost ever were,
for setting before the working classes the truth of this
matter. It was no slight pOint of difference and until
to-night he had really believed that the Noble. Lord
would be slow to admit- as a fact that Wages would not
be affected by his proposal. But at all the public meetings
that had been held on this question, this was the doc-
trine that was maintained.—(" No, no.") He spoke
in the presence of an Hon. Member who attended
those meetings, and he would appeal to the words of the
Hon Member for Oldham, who well knew the state of
opinion among the working classes, and who was the
coadjutor of the Noble Lord, and a great champion of the
Ten Hours' Bill.—(He read the passage from the. Hon.
Member for Oldham's speech, as before given.) Now
he (Sir James Graham) thought that on a subject of this
nature it was necessary the Noble Lord should state
openly and manfully his own-opinion ,• for if the working
classes were deceived, if they were told that the effect of
the measure 'would be' or little importance to them in
respect of wages—if they were led to press for the
measure, and disappointment should ensue, it would be
no consolation to them to know that the persons
whom in their despair - they would most blame
were persons whom they would say, unjustly, but in the
bitterness .of their hearts would say, ought to have bet-
tered their real interests, while they had but ministered
to . their prejudices and passions.—(Hear.) Those,
therefore, who advocated, this measure. were most re-
sponsible for the statement of their real opinions on
this subject. If they contended ;that the, measure would
not be followed by a fall of wages—if they told the
working classes they might seek with perfect impunity
this abridgment of their time of labour. that was a fair
question, for debate in that House. But if they were
wrong, if wages should fall, then he contended, those
who supported this proposition incurred a responsibility
greater than ever men had incurred, with respect to the-
arrangements of civilised society. He saw as clearly as
anything was ever seen, that this would be the end, and
there was no responsibility he would not incur, rather
than the responsibility of supporting this proposition.
The Noble Lord asserted that he was violating the
principles of a representative government by pressing
the re-consideration of this question. If, in asking for
this revision, he had employed any means but those of ar-
gument and reasoning, then he should consider himself to
blame; but being resolved not to incur the responsibility of
such, a decision, he submitted that he had a right to call
upon the House, while it was yet time, to reconsider the
course it had taken : and if, on consideration and argu-
ment that judgment should be sanctioned and confirmed,
then surely he had done nothing inconsistent with the
principles of representative government ; nor, he hoped,
was there anythiny improper or overbearing in saying
that he would prefer retiring from public life rather than
consent to this proposition. Having dwelt rather on
the principles' than the details of this question, he was
unwilling to follow the Noble Lord into all those details
into which he had entered. His ;positions were these—
that there would not be a diminution Of production, and
that wages and prices would rise ; and the Noble Lord.-.
stated, on authority. of a person wom he did not name,
that•the reduction in the price of wages, would not be
equal to, orco-extensive with, the reduction of time. Now
he had a statement from 328 master manufacturers, em-
ploying-100,000 hands, and paying 50,0001. per week in
wages, amounting to two millions and a half annually.
They all stated that the measure now contemplated
would prove fatal to the profits on their capital, and
would entail on their labourers a large and serious re-
duction of wages. The Noble Lord had also mentioned
that the reduction in the price of the labour employed
on a yard of cloth would be of a penny per yard. This
would amount to sd. on 25 yards. Now, 25 yards per
day was a low estimate for the produce of each loom
during the day; thus there would be a loss of sd. per
day upon each loom, which in a moderate-sized esta-
blishment of two hundred looms, would amount to
4/. 3s. 4d. per day ; and on the week a loss
of 23/. 19s. 8d- On the whole year the loss 'would be
1,1964 or about 10 per cent. on the whole capital em-
barked in the concern. This statement he •had attested
by most competent authority. Mr. Kinnersley stated
that in a mill consisting of 1,600 looms, the loss would
be 13/. 6s. Bd. per day, 91/. 13s. 4d. per week, 9,583/. per
year—a sum equivalent to a loss of 5 per cent. on
191,0001. These were the interests they were about to
touch ; these • were the interests which they would
destroy ; • their interference would give the death-blow
to their manufacturing greatness. He was unwilling to
detain the' House at greater length ; yet it was important,
taking the stand on the subject which he did, that he
should show he had some reason on his side. The Noble
Lord said that, putting the loss at one-sixth, it was
placing it much too high, but he was ready to allow a
diminution of one twelfth. He (Sir J. Graham) would
take it at the lower amount. He was informed that the
fixed charges of production in such concerns were very
nearly equal to the amounts paid, and a loss of one-
twelfth on the amount of wages would also
be a loss of 'one-twelfth on the fixed capital:
Even upon the data of the Noble Lord, the loss to the
employers by the reduction of time added to the loss,on
the fixed ' capital to be transferred would amount to a
reduction of one-sixth of the existing wages enjoyed
by the workmen.
.Unless they supposed that, concur-
rently with the loss of 20 per cent. in their wages, there
was to be a correspondent reduction on the' price of the
articles of the first necessity, he could not believe
that any misfortune that could befal the working classes
would be more disastrous and fatal than such a reduc-
tion.—(Cheers.) He was sorry the Noble Lord the
Member for London was not in his place. That Noble
Lord was the representative of the great capital of the.
commercial 'world. When, in the year 1839, his. Noble
Friend brOught forward the proposition which they were
now discussing, the last occasion which he did so while
the Noble Lord was in office, the Noble Lord then, having
the responsibility of the conduct of public affairs upon
him, declared that a proposition for shortening the hours
of labour, with the present high price of provisions un-
reduced, was a proposition of the greatest inhumanity.
His Noble Friend said he was accused of inhumanity.
That was the first occasion on which the charge of
inhumanity was preferred against his Noble Friend.
It was made by the Noble Lord the Member for London.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble. Lord said it was a cruel
proposition, and that it would be the ruin of the country.
That was the view which the Noble Lord now repre.;
senting the emporium of the commerce of the world took
on the moral consideration of the question. lie said it
was inhuman, and would be cruel in practice, and he
should vote against it.—(Cheers.) He (Sir J. Graham)
who was then in opposition, and opposed to the general
policy of the Noble Lord, did not ,shrink from the
-obloquy • of ' voting with the Noble Lord against the
proposition of his Noble Friend, and he did so because
he concurred with the Noble Lord in the opinion that it
would, be, in its practical result, inhuman and cruel
towards the working classes. That was the view the
Noble Lord took of the moral part of the question._ Was
that all? , The Noble Lord 'was not then the representa-
tive of London, but he was responsible for the conduct
of public affairs.—(Hear, hear.) Had the Noble Lord
changed his. opinion since lie went into opposition, or
since the commencement of the time that he went int 6
opposition? By no means. The Noble Lord, .now the
representative of the,City of London—the Noble Lord
who led the opposition with such abilitity and
power against the Executive Government, thought—
there were some rumours of deputations being sent to
the Government, and that there were some interviews on
the first day of the session of 1842, and, being jealous
on the subject, he thought that Government were about
to give way to popular impulses and feelings in a matter
which he considered as primarily important to, the na-
tional
'heincot
present
interests. 't eres
Parliament,t s. O
tthhee
ist3
od
boI
ef Februaryd ,ltloBn42t
menial view of the subject—the moral view he took in
1839—and he would read to 'the House what that view
was. After alluding to the rumours of interviews which
were held by certain parties whom he described as the
"social editors of some • New Moral World,'" the
Noble Lord said that " the limitation of labour to ten
hours, if adopted, would cut up by the roots the manufac-
turing prosperity of this country." -- (Loud cheers.)
There was the opinion of the Noble Lord on 'the moral
effects of the measure when he had the responsibilities of
a Minister of the Crown 'in 1839, that it was an in-
human and cruel measure.--(Hear,,hear.) . There was
his opinion on the commercial view in 1842, when he said
it would cut up by the roots the manufacturing prosperity
of the country, and.though the Noble Lord was absent
now, he hoped before the debate closed they would have
the advantage of hearing what new facts and circum-
stances came •to light to Induce him to alter his opinion
since then.—(Hear.) He
,(Sir J. Graham) voted with
the Noble Lord in 1839. He agreed with him in 1842,
and, regardless of the censecniences, it was his firm de.
termination to give the motion of the Noble Lord his un-
compromising opposition.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend
aslted why they had not declared they entertained those
strong opinions. Why, had they not voted with the Go,
vernment in 1939, which they 'laboured to overthrow,
against the proposition of the Noble Lord?. Was not,
that sufficient evidence of their opinions ? They had
not yielded one inch. Did not the Noble Lord give it to
tio, from Lord Ashley.) He understood, the Noble
th
be understood that he would not take part in their coup-'
became they would not eomprolnisc any of their
"
opinions
loiPnsstCmi the, thesulueet, and that it was on this ground
great advantages of' his services?—("
Lord to say, that because some concession IV* "t
e
on this subject ha dicreot
.tape office, and did. not yield
t° fascillatiQ° of ofaCe• • 119" wits resolved to resl4
.

Lord HOWICK said he would accept the challenge
thrown out by the Right Honourable Gentleman,
and state distinctly what his views were on the
important point of the reduction of wages.—(Hear,
hear.) But, before doing so, he begged to state
that he heard with regret what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet respecting the course which would
be pursued by the Government in the event of being de-
feated on this subject. He alluded to the impression
which had gone abroad, that a threat of resignation on
the part of the Ministers was held out in case they were
defeated ; and the Right Hon. Baronet told them, in the
most distinct language, that he would not, as a Minister
of the Crown, consent to this measure coming into ope-
ration. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in the
general proposition, that no tyranny could be greater than
to expect that a Minister would remain in office when
the House compelled him to consent to that which he
believed would be fatal to the country. He believed that
was proper upon great questions of general policy and
general principle, but to apply it to cases like the pre-
sent, one confessedly of detail, was to put an end to all
deliberation.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was a dan •
gerous invasion of the deliberative power of the House.
—(hear, hear.) Lsaving this point, which incidentally
arose, he came to the main question before them. In the
first place, it was clear it was desirable to restrict the
hours of labour, unless some convincing reasons
to the contrary were shown. They had the
opinions of the factory inspectors themselves on
this point, and, indeed, they had their own common
sense to guide them.—(lronical cheers from Mr. Roe-
buck.) Her Majesty's Government already restricted
the hours of labour to twelve hours for females, which
was, practically saying, that they must work ten hours ;
and was it true that great danger or inconvenience would
arise if they carried the restriction still further? The
question was, would they, by determining for how many
hours a day labour should be prolonged, incur great
hazard, and those evils which they were told would
follow from restricting the hours of labour?—(Here the
Noble Lord turned round to the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Bath, who was speaking in a rather loud tone of
voice to an Hon. Member behind him, which two or
three times caused a cry of " Order" in the House, and
said), " I beg pardon of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Bath. He is interrupting, and no man is more into-
lerant of interruption than the Hon and Learned Gen-
tleman himself."—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—I will talk when I like, and I will
not ask the Noble Lord's leave.—(Oh, oh.) No right to
talk
Lord HOWICK—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
says he has a right to talk when he likes. I know the
Hon. and Learned Member has very strange notions of
what his peculiar rights and privileges are, but I always
thought it was the privilege of any Hon. Gentleman who
was addressing the House that he should not be inter-
rupted.
Mr. ROEBUCK rose, amidst cries of " Order, order,"
and said, I rise to order. If I have in the slightest de-
gree interrupted the Noble Lord, I had not the slightest
intention of doing so; and, if I have done so, I am sin-
cerely desirous of aplogising for it.—(Hear.)
Lord HOWICK said that he accepted the apology of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman as most satisfactory,
and nothing but the claim put forward by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman that he had a right to talk, in-
duced him (Lord Howick) to say what he did. He
would now return to the main question. The principal
point was, as to the effect of his Noble Friend's amend-
ment on the foreign trade of the country. He would
admit, for the sake of argument, though he disbelieved
the fact, that a reduction of the hours of labour would
create a preportionate diminution in the amount of
goods produced. But he did not conceive if possible
that women, and children, and young persons, after
being exhausted by working ten hours a day, could
produce the same amount of work in the two following
hours which they would produce during they same time
when they came fresh to their work. Then as to the af-
fect which a reduction of the hours of labour would
have on wages ; if it only affected those who were en-
gaged in producing goods for the home market, the
wages and profits of manufacturing interests would not
be so affected as to fall lower than in other occupations ;
that was to say, that the produce of 100 labourers,
working, suppose with a capital of 1,000/., could still
exchange for the same amount of produce as before—
that was to say goods would somewhat rise in the
market if the home market alone was concerned. But
they were told that its effects would be most serious
upon the goods which were produced for the foreign mar-
ket. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated facts to confirm
that view ; he showed how close competition was, and that
if the measure of his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley) was
adopted, it would be impossible to raise the price. This
argument seemed to him (Lord Howick) to be founded
on a misconception of the nature of the foreign trade.
When a cargo of goods was sent to a foreign country it
by no means followed that the profits depended on the
price which the goods realised. Any practical mer-
chant might tell them at once, if they sent a cargo of
cotton goods to Rio, it was not merely the price for
which the goods were sold which determined whether it
was to be a profitable or losing speculation. The specu-
lation might be a profitable or losing one, according to
what was the expense of remitting the consignment. If
the premium on the rate of exchange was small, the spe-
culation was a losing one, but if the premium re-
ceived was large for the same amount of goods
sold, the speculation might be profitable.—(Hear.)
That arose from a fact which, in all their discussions
upon that subject, they had to a great extent over-
looked, that the whole of our export trade was, in point
of fact, only a barter of one description of goods for an-
other. The whole of our export trade with foreign
countries depended upon this circumstance, that we had
in this country a demand for a great number of articles
of foreign produce, which we either could not produce
at all, or at least not so cheaply as they were produced
abroad, and our manufacturers were employed in pro-
ducing those goods, the sale of which the experience of
our merchants bad decided would be the most effectual
mode of paying for those foreign productions. If that
was the real nature of our trade, and he thought no
man could deny it—if what put in motion those vast
hives of industry in Lancashire and Yorkshire
was to pay for the coffee, wine, sugar, tobacco, and the
multitude of other foreign goods which we consumed in
this country—if that was really the nature- of our
foreign trade, he wanted to ask how it was possible
that, even admitting that the amendment of his Noble
Friend, if carried, would increase the cost of producing
these articles—how could it possibly have any effect in
preventing our foreign trade ? Would the foreign de-
mand decrease? Would the desire to obtain coffee,
sugar, wine, and those articles which were the main-
spring of the whole machinery of commerce—would
that desire fail? Certainly not. If those goods were
still important, our merchants would, as before endea-
vour
to. find the means of paying for the importations
they made ; and the goods we now sent out would be as
available for that purpose as they were now, and the
only effect which in his opinion they would
have reason to dread from foreign competition
was, that it might make them give a larger
amount of the produce of their own labour for
the different kinds of goods they imported.—(Hear,
hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He was. glad the lion. and
Learned Gentleman attended to his argument. They
would have to give a somewhat larger amount of the
produce of their own labour and capital in order to
obtain the same amount as before of those various
articles of foreign produce.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not
deny that a certain degree of inconvenience would arise
from the diminution of their productive power. But
what he would show them was that the burden of the
inconvenience would not fall peculiarly upon the opera-
tives engaged in these factories or upon the manufac-
turers, but that it would fall upon the community at
large. They would purchase a less amount than before
of tea, coffee, and other foreign goods, because the
foreigner being able to resort to other markets for those
goods which we exported, and because more of our
labour was required to produce the same amount of
goods as formerly—the foreigner would refuse to grant
an increase in the amount of goods which he gave us in
return. It was true that to that extent there would be.
inconvenience—that the whole amount of the foreign
goods imported into this country, in return for the whole
amount of our manufactures exported, would be to a
certain 'extent diminished. But that burden would, as
he said before, fall on the whole community in the shape
of a somewhat increased price of the foreign commodity.
But that would not in any degree endanger the safety of
the foreign trade, nor cause such an extraordinary re••
duction of wages, as it had been contended it would.
The danger was considerably less than the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite would lead them to expect. He (Lord
Howick) maintained that, instead of that exaggerated
apprehension, either of the destruction of our export
trade; or the ruin of our manufactures, all they would
have to apprehend was a certain comparatively small di-
minution in the return they got from foreign countries for
their manufacturing labour. lie was aware that that was a
different view of the nature of foreign competition from
that which was generally taken.—(" Hear, hear," from
Mr. Roebuck.) But he was not the less persuaded that
it was a just one—he was not the less persuaded that
trade was essentially merely a barter of one set of goods
for another. In the history of commerce they would
perceive that to be the case. When enterprising mari-
ners in the early ages brought manufactures to the bar-
barous natives of this country, it was, as everybody
ssafsnvi:
but a simple exchange of one description of
_gerono
another, and that was equally the case in d
com-
merce. Though we measure the price in
nobfilglsonodfse,xve.
change and in money, yet it was the. amount
received in this country, and nothing es sNei,ew which
N‘ as
our foreign trade. One proof that his correct
was the very fact which the Right lion. Baronet opposite
had stated of the close competition which foreign countries
were able to maintain against us, in spite of great disad-
vantages with which they had to contend. The Right
Hon. Baronet had pointed out Switzerland as able to
maintain close competition with us, though we knew
that that country could only obtain the vaw material by
a long land carriage, or, by what -IN as not less expensive,
internal navighfion ; and that our manufactured goods
come back in the same way. The Right Honourable
Baronet said that Switzerland had the advantage of a
gr, at water power ; hut they well knew that that was
so little of an advantage compared with a good situation,
that the immense water-power of the highlands of Scot-
land was. never brought into operation. Her situation