The Sun.
London, England, 1810-02-07 00:00:00

grepared to deny that he might at the present mo.
ment have opposed it ; yeti as-the public had been
allowed regularly to receive a report of the proceed-
ings in Parliament, he was desirous that no casual
interrupt ion of that permission should occur. He
was solicitous that as a change,had taken place in
the circumstances of the country, and even in the
charaeter of Parliament, that change should be ac-
companied by correspondent .changes in other re-
spetts. To prove that a change had taken place in'
the character of that House, he need only refer to
the discussion of the preceding evening, during which
the influence of party and personal considerations-
was manifested to an indecent and 'unexampled ex-
tent. When it broadly was treated in the House
of Commons, 'as a matter of reproach, that a genre-
sentative of the People belonged to no Party, such a
statement was indeed evidence of a change, to which
he thought the original practice .of
_the House, in
other respects, ought to conform. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had said, that the idea of a Representative
Body carried along with it that of the confidence of
the persons represented. He wished it night be so.
Many people certainly thought that the -House of
Commons did not possess the confidence of the
country. Most assuredly it was an ill-advised mode
of-obtaining the general confidence to shut the na-
tion out from obtaining information 'on an enquiry
off the greatest magnitude, respettiug which the
- most lively sensibility had been excited, and towards
the result of.which every eye was steadily and.anxi-
ously dire&ed. _

Mr. WINDHAM explained. He never intended
to attribute all thd changes that had taken place,
during the last 30 years to the publicity of the pro-
ceedings of, Parliament, but had merely mentioned
that publicity as one cause of those changes.
Mr. You.KE, while he protested against the prin-
ciple of being called upon of right to st:lte the rea-
sons which had induced him to take the step that
he had done, had no objection to state,the grounds
of that proceeding. He had been influenced to en-
force the exclusion of strangers by what he 'conceiv-
ed an indispensable public duty, to prevent mistakes
ano" misrepresentations sanlir to those which had
formerly occurred of examinations at the Bar of the
House. Reasoning by analogy, the presence of
stranger's durieg an inquiry was indetenAble, for
the House assumed the charaCter, and were about
to pt-rform the fundiors of a grand inquest of the
nation ; and when was it known that any person
was admitted to be present at the examinations via
Grand Jury ? FrOM this ordinary •principle, ho could
see no reason tor departing. No " man cutd deny
that the accidental errors (putting misrqn.er
sensations' out of the question) which- aro,e-in re-
potting to the Public an ex.iminAtiOn at the Bar of
that House, in the Pasty manner in which it was
necessarily -done, must be produc,tive of, infinite
misvhief. It he were asked why he had not en-
forced the Standing Order on. a 'former occasion, he
would reply, that he deeply regretted nut having
done so; and unquestionably he would have en-
forced it:on that'occasion, ,had he 3 entertained the
smallest conception of t!,e nature and tendency of
the case then brought betbre Parliament. He de-
precated any injudicious interference with the ancient
- orders of the House. On the legiiiwate privileges
.Of the House of Cotni-nons depended (under Provi-
dence) the safety of the commonwealth;- and it, as
th. Noble Lord intimah.d ought to be done, those
privileges were to b~ adapted to eve.ry.poputhr.fer-
went or feeling that might arise, they,would soon
be trampled under foot, and Parliament would be
rendered incapable of proteCting either themselves
or the People.'
Lord FULKSTONE,' in explanation, denied having
said that the House ought to conform to'every po-
pular feeling of the moment. - It was singialar that
lie should be censured tor attaching importance to
popular sentiment by the same Honourable Gentie-
man, who, on a former occasion bad .warned him
and his friends of the "danger • resulting to them
_from the unpopularity of the, measures, which they.
pursued. •

Mr. YoItKE professed himself wholly ignorant of
the Noble Lord's meaning.
Lord FOLKSTOKE observed, that it was some few
years ago, at the period of the peace of Amiens,
when the Hon. Gentleman was ligh in office.
Mr. YORKE did not recollect the circumstance.

Mr. TIERNEY' dec!ared, that if he thought the-
motio'n of his Hon.-Friend infringed in the slightest
degree upon the privileges of the- House, he would
be the. first man to, oppose it. . But the nature of
the motion had been utterly mistaken' ; it went rit,t
to rescind the Standrilg Order, but to- r,.fer it. to-
the consideration of a Com:hi ;tee of
For his own part, he was not Maiseft aware that
the Order could be amended ; but as he ,opposed
his Hon. Friend_ was prepared to state in the Coin-
mittee his reasons for thinking tirit it tnight,-be:
amended, he would support the motion C,;it
view alorie.,., Wiih respect to the enforcent of
?the exclusibn of strangers, in the pres'Ait
he could not see its wisdom. When had suc'n
s!ep been taken on stitch an occasion 2,
..Not :Aw-
ing the whole American tear, waen so many Min-
tary Inquiries took place. He was ac a to,s to
conceive what incontenience could have arisen had
the whole of the evidence taken belore.the Com-
mittee of Inquiry yesterday evening been published
that morning. Had any misrepresentation occurred,
he would have, been the first to notice it to the
House; and-if it had been deemed advisable, the
further publication of the proceedings 'inght have
been prohibited without excldding the pubic from
the gallery. He allowed that the reporting at the
debaes in Parliament was attended with much in.
convemeace. Hi Lad experienced a great deal of
this in Irs own case. But lie wholly acquitted the
reporters of blame. He accoined them,
,because it
was evident that an accurate account of the pro-
ceedings would be the best calculated to sell the.!
paper in which it was contained, and 'an accurate
account, therefore, he did believe it was their
honest wish to give. The Public had acquired a
kind of right to know what was passing_ in that
House, _from the change which his Honourable
Friend truly asserted had taken place within the
last thirty years. When to per cent. was.dcdoded
from the. income of esery man (a measure which
would not have been ventured on thirty years ago),
was it too. much that the public should know why ,
When lauge standing armies were maintained in the
country, was it 10(1 much that 'the public sttoirld
knew on what grounds they were maintained Yet
[rpm this little luxury the general, enforcement of

the Standing Order for the exclusion of strangers
must inevitably shut them out.. If in a Cormnittee
of privileges therefore any modification of the o;der
could be hit upon in order to prevent capricious
enforcement, would not such an emendation - be
highly advantageous ?. And this without the least
abandonment of the power which every Member
possessed of clearing strangers Irom the gallery
,at
any moment whatever, without any 'reason assigned.'
The present inquiry was most important to the pub-
lic. Never had there been more complicated dis-
asters than those whichAuring the last )ear had be-
fallen three of-the finest armies -which Great Bri-
tain had ever produced. Wai it not fitting that the
public should know in what way the House of
Commons ,were carrying on the inquiry into these
events ? If, in the Noble Lord's allusion to blame
that be had incurred for not belonging to a ',arty he
had pointed to any former expression of his, the
Noble Lord bad misconceived him. Forhimself, he
was a party man ; -be thought no good could be
done without pdrty; he was 411istied, that for a
Member of the House of Commons to come down
and to ad upon his own principles without reference
to concert with others, however theoretically right,
was pratlically erroneous. He did not, however,
• asperse-those who' thought differently although he
could not help remarking that the Noble Lord did
not seem to act entirely upon the principle which he
professed, but to belong to what might perhaps be
termed a third part in the House. ,

Mr. LITTLETON W3S adverse to the exclusion of
strangers fronr the Gallery, and concurred in the
motion far referring the subject to time consideration
of a Committee of Privileges. _

Mr. P. MOORE was anxious to do justice to a
class of as meritorious individuals as any-in- the
country. He meant the Editors of Newspapers.
.He was not acquainted with one of these Gentle-
men ; but in his opinion they had done as much
to inform the public mind, as the public mind had
heen informed by the discussions.in Parliament, or
,by any othos- means whatever. He did not under-
stand his. Hon. Friend's ftieory about the liberty
of the press. If fettered in pradice it would no
longer exist. It had once been said by a Minister
to his Sovereign, " If we do not destroy the press,
the press will destroy us." But that expression
was used in tunes very different from the present.
Now every Editor of a Newspaper was registered,
and was forthcoming whenever the Attorney-Ge-
neral might choose to call upon hint to answer for
any offence against the law. For his part he could
not discern any thing in the condod of any of the
Papers which justified the degrading language in
which ks Hon. Friend had spoken of them. They
were to the Public tl►e canals of iniarmation ; and
tlie) paid annually above two millions in duties, be-
ing thus much more productive to the State- than
the canals of commerce. With respe& to the ex-
clusion of strangers, was there any thing going for-
ward in the House; of which they were ashamed ?
Certainly not. Then why exclude the Public from
heating their discussions ?.'

Si' 14% BURDUTT SLDJ,Clibvd to many of tile doc-
trines of the Hon. Gemleinim (Mr. Windham),
because they were; purely consitutional, but they
were totally inappin:able to the present circum-
stance. It the house of Co:utilons could return to
its former pule a,,d itidependeOt stilte.; if it could

get rid at placeinen and pensioners, then in-
deed its doors might be stall against strangers. But
unfortui]ately unit was noi toe case; unfortunately
the public regarded it a ith an eye of great suspt-.
cion—(Cries of LYo ! no !) That was a qnestion
.! not to be decided by themselves. It had bceh
that the House was on its last legs ; he would "add,.
that •in point of reputation it had riot a leg to
stand on.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECLU. appealed
to the Speaker wne:hzx such language could be
used with iniptLsay
The SPEAlcif cit-ciareil, that to utter-any declare-
: t ion that she tLiuse hau lost its -reputation, was cer•
ttinly mo-t tiopariiamentary.
' Sir F. BuanETT i,ity.eeded to say, that in his ap-
prehension thy: FT sure did ,stand in that predica-.
mem ; attd he tru tea • hat ise should not be pre-
vented from speaki ig the t:uth.within those walls.
' As t,, !he en:orcernen, of the Ofd,:rs of the House,
the trunsaLai,i,sot the t Ith 01 May last were
•:0 it was acknowledged that
a Mili's:er had bas d.,•te.ted in unduly bringing in
Meinl=ers or -l'aillament,,and in trafficking in seats,
titan which nothing could be more destructive ofthe
best privky , ut the House, it nrght perhaps be
cx.pe..tetu.it less stress would.he laid upon the sa-
rrd chiracter of those Orders. He could see no
obitction to the motion. The greatest ex-
. 121.C1-1.1 •-f the pri‘ileges of the House'was the revi-
•.f its privtges. The Hon. Gentleman oppo.
site had talked of misrepresentations. of the exami-
• natth,s in the Inquiry last Session, but he had not
named one. 'Many advantages had resulted:from
the publication in the Papers of the reports of the
debates, which, in his opinion, were remarkalq
exact, and executed with great ability ; so much so,
that htt doubted whether, if any indi‘idual welt:
pl,,ce.d by a:si horny at she table of the House for the
:same purpose, the purpose would be answered with
greater accuracy t •an it now was by the individuals
in another part of the House, and who bid no mu-
live for concealing or disguising troth.• It did cer-
tainly appea rational, that lie who urged,a measure
by which the Public -were deprived of the advan-
tagv of these reports, should at leas! spew a reason
fOr his condu(i. Surely it was strange that an indi-
vidual should thus be- allowed to bring down
odium on a whole_hody. Anxious as he (Sir F.
Burdett) was for a reform of Parliament, and doing
all he could to,promote it, it seemed to be against
his own view to tecommend the House to keep as
well as they could_ in the eye of the Public. By
the exclusion, a great insult was offered to the
country—it having • been previously determined
that the Inquiry should be public. If the doors
were to be shut, the House would do much better
to send the whole to a Secret Committee, and pro-
ceed with the consideration of the other public
business.

Mr,. SHERIDAN declared that it was with great
and unfeigned relwtance he availed himself of the
indulgence which the ,House allowed the mover of
any proposition to claim ; bu,t be felt that he'should.
be deficient in reipea to his Honourable Friend near
-him (Mr. Windham), as well as to the }louse 'apd•
to the Pubic, were he to refrain from inaling. a
hoTt reply to the arguments which .1.1.41 ilAt

vaned against his motion. It was remarkable,
that in, the discussion which had taken place, no
Gentleman on the other side of the House, except
the Honourable Mover of the exclusion, had par-
ticipated ; although he (Mr. Sheridan) had pointedly
suggested to those Gentlemen that. it was for their
honour, and had boldly declared his belief that it
was their wiab,.the inquiry should be as public as
possible: He was anxious to know whether or not
they intended by their silence to shelter themselves
under the extraordinary do trines that had.been pro-.
leased by his Hon. Friend near himeand to intimate
that they agreed with him in the singular positions
which he had maintained. His Hon. Friendhad be-
gun his speech by criticising his (Mr. Sheridan's)
absence from the House on former occasions dur-,
ing the present Session. On this subject
,he_ must
take:leave to judge for himself when his presence'
in the
,Hpute waenecessary, and when note—His
Hon. Friend had arraigned him for not being pre-
sent to support the charges which he stated had
been proved against his • Mejesty's Ministers. On
the first day of the Session he had attended, and had
voted for tlre Atnendrrent. Since •that period be had
been much occupied with private business; but
he had a right, when ire felt that a question
was agitating of, infinitely 'greae r ialportance than
any question of a mere political nature could-pes-
sibly be,'to put aside his private business, and to at--
tend for the purpose of assisting in the determination
of that question. Such was the present question.—,
On the first day of the Session he had heard one
side of the .Howe arraigning the other ai utterly in-
capable of fulfilling the duties of office. That might
or might not be true. But the othet side retorted
that they were at least as competent as their adver-
saries, and that they possessed at least an 'equal
share of the public confidence. Now, for whir be
knew, the country at large, with a very ci%il
of impartiality, might believe both parties. The
inference which he would draw from this circum-
stance was, that the House should guard against
adding to the unfavourable impression which such
mutual accusations were calculated to produce. 'His
Hon. Friend had called him a counsel for the Press.
If he was so, he was an unfeed one. He was proud
of the appellat;on. But he confessed that he was a
good deal surprised when his Honourable Friend put
in his claim for a share of the distinction. Hon
that ground his Honourable Friend meant to hug
him in a fraternal embrace, he begged leave to decline
the honour. " For myself," continued Mr. S. "
have always been a friend to the Liberty of the
Press. Give to. Ministers a servile House of Peers ;
give them a venal and a pliant House of Com-
mons e=give them the keys of the Treasury and the
patronage of the Crown ;.--..and then give me the
Liberty of the Press ;—and with this mighty en-
gine destroy th edifice of corruption, and
establish on its ruins the rights. and priviliges of the
people I" His only object in the motion which be
he had submitted to the House was, not to prevent
. any individual Member from clearing the Gallery, but
to require: that after he had dcee so, he should
'condescend to give some reason 14- the step. The
Oentlemiin opposite said, "it was his hu-
mour. That wes the very thing of which he (Mr.
Sheridan) complained. If, alter the exclusion of

strangers, the House should acquiesce in the pro.
priety of the motives lot that exclusion, the Public
would then be satisfied. To some of the opinions .of
his Hon. Friend, he had listened with the greatest
regret, and even horror. For the -first time in his
life, he had almost wished that the Public lord been
excluded from hearing his opinions. The friendship
which he had long entertained tot his Hop. Friend,
and his iegard tor his Hon. F. ien.i'S character, and
honour, struggling witty his own sense of public dory.,
had nearly. induced , to regret that there was a
single stranger present to listen to or report his sen-
timents. His Hon. Friend had assened a broad ge-
neral principle, that thepUbliCation of the proceed-.
ings of Parliament was injurious to the country. Pa
had declared, that when the doors of the Gallery of
that House were cl.:sed, the country had done Well.
He(Me.
, ,
octet-lean) was not ofie of those who thought
Lor spoke despondingly of the situation, or &grad,-
ingly of the character of the country. On the con-
trary, he was of opinion that Great Britain stood on
a proud emineuce, struggling as she was, and
cessfully struggling as he hoped 6he would be, frr
the liberties of the world. That honourable spirit
by which the people of England were animated
in this greet contest, he attributed to the Lie
berty ot the Press‘generally, and most particularly
and emphatically to the liberty of reporting and,
publishing the inehates and proceedings inParliatuent.
But his Hon. Friend had again set- tip the old buggy
bear, and &id chira6lerisedtnis prattice as mischiev-
'ous, and leading t' revolutionary dot-trines, and to
the nudervaloing of the b.essiugs of the British Con-
stitUtion. The liberty of he pres 4 lead to revolution-
ary doctrines ! Was it the liberty el the press which
brought on the French revolution ? Was it not rather
the extinguishing of every opportonit.t by the press
ofgiving vein to complaiole,whichproduced that evettt?
What had occasioned the fall of all tire :ot ten monar-
Chies of Europe ? Was it the liberty of the press ? No !
It was the absence of that liberty. .1f thaltbeity oldie
press had existed in France,-in Austria, in Prussia, in
Spain, those countries would not now he enduring
the oppressive domination of a Buonaparte. The
analogy that the Hon. Gentleman opposite had at.
tempted to draw between the Committee ot Inquiry
and a Grand Jury
,was unfounded,-even on his own
spewing'; for that I-lon. Gentleman admitted, that
,the information _afforded to the Committee should
ultimately be published. Now, a Grand Jury peter
published its examinations. Why ? Lest they
should influence the Petty Jory who were al-
ter wards to try the accused. Besides, he under•
stood, that on the other evening; when after the
exciu..ion of strangers froor the Gallery, several
Peers remained for some time below the Bar of the
House, notwithstanding the general i:ry to withdraw.
The Noble Lord—fie begged the Hop. Gentleman's
pardon, although considering his attachment to No-
blemen, he might prouably soon be.entttled 10 that
appellation ; the Hon. Gem. was willing:to acquiesce"
in their stay. The Hon. Gent. theretOre refused to
allow those individuals to remain in the House woo
were not immediately inteiested in the question,
while he hart tin objection to allow others to stry to
whom the transaction 'might herealer be submit-. -
ed in their judicial capacity, and whose minds the
ends of justice theretbre essentiady required should-
be kept as tree aS possible tram undue 4thipartml ini-
vrosigPs. Mr.. Sheritt4n concluded a WA brilliant