The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

them points as I best could view them, I do ?Mt thielt it
improbable that Mr. Pitt did consider that the best chance
for the safety and security of the establishments in Church
and State in Ireland, consisted in the union and complete
.incorporation and identification of the two countries. Act-
ing under this feeling, the two Churches of England and
Ireland were united by Mr. Pitt, who thought that he thus
best consulted the solidity, safety, and permanency of both
establishments. On the other hand, Sir, I knew he thought
one of the difficulties of granting to the Catholics the
claims they preferred, consisted in the existence of a sepa-
rate Parliament in Ireland, which might fear the subver-
sion and overthrow of existing establishments by that
e
means; and M. Pitt was aware that if resisted there, the
question would give rise to perpetual struggl ,strifes, and
confusion in that country ; therefore, the conception of
Mr. Pitt's large and statesmanlike mind was to frame a
legislative incorporation in which that queStion could be
safely conceded, and as I have no hesitation in saying, he
thought safely conceded. I say, Sir, by these considera-
tions, no doubt many persons of weight and influence in
Ireland were induced to lend their assistance and support
to the Union, and to forego that reluctance which the in-
habitants of an ancient and independent country may na-
turally be supposed to have felt at sacrificing their inde-
, pendence, and unitiag themselves with another state. They
had been then recently visited with a rebellion of a very
dangerous character, and there were fearful forebodings 551
the future. On these grounds they were therefore of an
opinion, that the connection between this country and Ire-
land, and the safety and security of both, together with
the maintenance of the rights of property and of our esta-
blishments civil and religious, could 1w best attained by a
Legislative Union, which for these reasons they con-
sidered desirable. What was the result of this ? I
answer, the result was—that to the one party, which had
much to lose, and every thing to apprehend from a separate
legislature, to it complete security was afforded, and all its ex-
pectations were realized—while, for the other party, with
its sanguine views and hopes upon the subject of civil
rights, nothing was provided but disappointment. How-
ever, be it so. Let all their expectations be disappointed,
there still remains to them a strong hold—they are still in
possession of the vantage ground given by the Act of 1793
(the enjoyment of the elective franchise), and in that posi-
tion, inexpungable in itself, but so flanked and turned by
circumstances which followed the Union, they now are not
able to push forward or advance themselves, but still re-
maining in their previous condition. Sir, this is the situ-
ation of the Roman Catholics at the present day—there
has been no pledge, no promise, no assurance, but I admit
a very confident expectation. There has been no breach of
compact—but a great disappointment. Looking at that
disappointment, and at what might have been the conse-
quence:if no Union had taken plaice, I always thought there
was great force in the argument used by the Member for
Waterford, and that the people of Ireland had a right of
appeal, if not to the justice, yet to the generous interpre-
tation of the imperial legislature. After what I have
said, it is unnecessary to state that the view I now take of
this subject is the same as it has ever been since it was
first discussed. On every one of these occasions, whe-
ther the event was successful or not, I have retired from
the contest with an increased sense of the growing urgency
of concession. With that sense I have approached the pre-
sent discussion of the Hon. Baronet's motion, and I shall
retire from it, whatever may be the decision of this night,
with increased confidence, that the advantages sought can-
not be much longer refused. During the quarter of a cen-
tury that this question has been before the House, it has
occupied more time and elicited greater and more splendid
efforts of talent than any similar discussion. Two great
men, unfortunately, have passed away without reaping the
fruits of their labours—yet not without planting good
fruits, though they have not as yet arrived at maturity.
Let public opinion in this country be directed aright with
regard to the claims of the Catholics—let yet a little more
progress be made in enlightening the minds of the people
upon this subject—let us then, instead of being neutral,
passive, or indifferent, be friendly, active, and zealous in its
behalf, and then will the great difficulties that at present
surround this question be removed. Sir, whatever may
be the opinions of the less educated class of the Eng-
lish community on this subject, I do believe, or rather
I slid believe, till something in the course of this dis-
'euesion induced me to doubt the fact, that among wen
of education and intelligence, there no longer existed
any question that this subject was not one to be
mixed up with considerations arising out of mere dif-
ferences of religious creeds. Sir, this is a question, in my
mind, entirely of state policy. I shall not here stop to corn-
pare the purer doctrines of the Established Church with the
errors of the Church of Rome. I am glad to see that the
opinion of the Hen. Member for Louth (Mr. L. Foster)
on this point has not been borne out by that of the special
and legitimate guardians of the Church of England. It
affords me pleasure to observe, that one of these (who is
among the brightest and most distinguished ornaments of
the Right Reverend Bench which he occupies) has stated
that the question is to be looked at solely with deference
to security. The Right Rev. person to whose opinions
upon this subject I have referred, says, " If all can give
equal security, let all be admitted"—and concludes by ex-
pressing his conviction that " If parties can be admitted to
the enjoyment of State privileges without danger, clu-
sion becomes indefensible." Sir, I wish these words to go
forth to the public—l wish them to be known and read
by every man in the country. I trust every obstacle that
is to be found in the public feeling of the country may be
removed by, and give place to, the Statesmanlike, enlight-
ened, and liberal doctrine of that Right Rev. Prelate (the
Bishop of Chester)—this, the true doctrine. The case is
one of abstract justice, and we have no right to exclude
the petitioners, except a case of special danger can be made
out against them. The question, being once made one of
admission or exclusion, and being once considered with re-
ference to security only, becomes greatly simplified. Not-
withstanding all I have heard from the Hon. and Learned
Solicitor-General, I am convinced, when the public comes
to look at the question in this point of view they will per-
ceive that in the absence of the evils complained of, they
will find the best security ; for the present system creates
parties and perpetuates dangers far more formidable than
are to be apprehended from the concession of these claims.
Sir, let us only show that we appreciate in Ireland, ae
-we have lately done here, the great value of religious peace.
Let this be the foundation on which to rely for security,
and then, I say, as in a recent instance, there will not be
found much difficulty as to the point of obtaining an ade-
quate security, whether that object is to be accomplished
lay a statutory enactment, or by a simple declaration, as the
case may seem to require. My Hon. and Learned Friend
the Attorney-General called on " the buds of genius" to
take care that they saw clearly that all the securities could
be granted which were requisite, that might he considered
adequate, before they proceeded a step further. To these
young and inexperienced Members, whom my Hon. and
Learned Friend addressed, I, as an old stager, and one well
versed in the political world, say that it is amongst the
itt
stalest of all arguments for a call to be made for security
by those who have already formed the resolution never to
repeat, it concede what is demanded. Sir, should sly, in fairness,
let my Hon. and Learned Friend, and those who thought
ii pad will
notbe t
with him, begin by telling me that they are not decidedly
is
eadverseh tho
en etn the
e t
o t
principle.
k of se
measure,
i t I an
rea-
sonable to call upon me to provide guarantees before they
have admitted the principle of concession ; and I also
say, that before they ask me for security for -this, that,
or the other, it is incumbent on them to shew the ezist-
ence of a specific danger—to lay before me its particular
nature, and to prove how it is likely to work, where it
will commence its attacks on the body politic—how it may
be expected to sap and approach the vitals of the State.
It is impossible, unless the dangers be apprehended, and
the fears entertained, be made evident, for a common un-
derstanding to undertake to provide remedies fors the evil;
Sir, when we are talking of these securities arid safe.
guards which, as I have already said, form so great a part
of the speech of my Hon. and Leaned Friend, I do not
know how to point them at;t, till I have a more distinct
view of the difficulties and dangers in question. If my
Hon. and Learned Friend will not tell us the precise na
ture of the dangers and fears to which he hae alluded, at
least let me be allowed to tell him what dangers are not to
be apprehended. We have nee to fear the power of the
sword, because already the Roman Catholic portion of the
community is eligible to high command both in the army
and navy, sad is admissible to every situation of confidence)
and authority in these formidelde branches, of the public
service. I may be answered, that this is a measurewhich
was procured by stealth. I wish by an equal stealth the
measure now before the House were concealed, and I ant
sure as little danger can be apprehended from its conces-
sion as frosn the admission of Roman Catholics to places
of trust anti confidence in the army and navy. The dan-
ger which my Hon. and Learned Friend apprehends, can-
not arise from the power of the Catholics over the revenue
of the country, for 1 believe at the present moment Ca-
tholics are as eligible as Protestants to fill all situations
connected with the management of the public revenue.
Here then, is the exercise of two great powers, with re-
spect to the administration of which a free and Protestant
State might be justified in entertaining feelings of jealomy.
It appears we have equal confidence in Protestants as Ca-
tholics, without requiring any pledge or security in the
case of the former any more than in that of the latter.
Is the danger which my lion. and Learned Friend appre-
hends discoverable in the inability under which we labour
to prevent the intercourse supposed te exist between the

Catholiee and the See of Rome? My Hen. and Learned
Friend (the Attorney-General) dwelt at large upon this
subject. Is it right that the State ought to claim a power
of interference in the nomination of Catholic Bishops, and
the appointment of the priesthood ? I think it is, and
regret that we unfortunately possess no such pledge or
security.as would be thus afforded ; but the Honourable
and Learned Member knows that England is the only
country in which such a power does not exist. Does he
believe that if we remove the disabilities of the Roman
Catholics, and thereby pacify Ireland, that the Pope will
be backward to grant to Ireland what he has already granted
to Russia, Baden, the Netherlands, and every other state
in Europe, and what I am sure the Catholics would
be desirous that he should concede? On the contrary, I
am sure, when they see that the result is certain, that
they will not be backward in complying with all that is
reasonable and proper. In Prussia the Catholic Clergy are
provided for by the State, which has the nomination of the
Bishops, and holds the communication with Rome under
its controul. Let us act towards the Catholics as Prussia
has done, and the Pope will act towards us as he has done
towards Prussia. This I know, that so long as we refuse
to entertain the question of Catholic relief, so long will it
be impossible fur my Hon. and Learned Friend, with all
his learning and ingenuity, to controul the intercourse be-
tween the Catholic Church and the See of Rome, or to
provide against the evils to be apprehended frosts it. I ant
certainly not one of those who wish to be at all considered
as an advocate for the Roman Catholics; for 1 view with
no friendly eye auy thing leading to the spread of their re-
ligion. It may be prejudice, but I cannot desire to see their
doctrines ascendant. In the dark and superstitious ages,
devices and contrivances were resorted to, which, I believe,
formed 110 part of the Catholic religion, but by means of
which designing men succeeded in establishing a . most
dangerous and wicked ascendancy. Against this ascend-
ancy I am anxious to guard Ireland, and the question is,
will we, granting this question,
theaisle eor
ascendancy V 1 lwe n
of otth yebCatholic priesthood in Ireland ?
I admit that much benefit and happiness has accrued to
the world from the progress if the Reformation; I wish
I could also agree with my Right Honourable Friend, that
the attempts made to put down Catholic ascendancy had
been successful. I fully agree with my Noble Friend as
to the great influence possessed and exercised by the
press in the present day ; and in France, which is a Ca-
tholic country, we clearly perceive how much that mighty
engine bus mitigated the character of the Catholic reli-
gion, and modified the temper of the existing Government.
I say then, that what could not be helped in Frillier, under
a Catholic King, a Catholic Court, a Government exclu-
sively Catholic, and notwithstanding the attachment of
the people to their religion, may be effected in a Protestant
country by persecution. I think it may be laid down as
an incontrovertible rule that a principle such as that to
which I have alluded cannot exist in a country influenced
by a free press, unless that principle be fiwsvarded by per-
secution. Sir, it is this that renders Ireland subject to
the influence of democracy and prieethood--it is this that
poisons, that taints every boon we have conferred upon
Ireland—it is this that checks the progress of education its
that country, and that gives to the democracy and to
Priesthood a power which I wish to see destroyed. 'rake
from them the influence which persecution gives, and you
will deprive them of the most effective weapon they wield
—and you will see that principle in a few years dwindle
into insignificance—an insignificance, provided, remem-
ber, that it be not prevented by persecution, as total as that
of witchcraft itself—a danger once considered so pro-
minent, a belief which had once so many votaries, but
which yielded to the influence of a free press ; destroy the
freedom of that press, and you will revive witchcraft
or some other such dark opinions in as much strength as it
ever possessed. In the name of Heaven, in the name of
the Protestant Church, in the name of Protestant England,
in the name of the people of England, who desire ttan-.
quillity and peace, give to a free press, give to the energie,
of a free country, the power of checking the danger you
dread, and it will he checked so effectually, that within a
very short period it will cease to exist. 1 own it has
always created in my mind a most humiliating feeling ; it
has always appeared to me to be a libel on the good sense
of the country ; it has always seemed to me to be dis-
paraging the House of Commons to suppose, that a few
individuals opposed to the Protestant Church could ever
take us by surprise, so as to deprive us of the powers Ire
possess. If they did take us by surprise, is there
not the throne—is there not the House of Coma-
mons—is there not that sentry who never sleeps on
his post—a free press—to put down and to annihilate the
intention? lam ready to concede that the settlement
the Constitution at the °Revolution was Protestant and per-
manent. God forbid that it should not be so. But :f
understand it rightly,- it was intended not only to be Pro -
testant, but to be the Church of England, but am Ito
be told it was never to be interfered with? How then
comes it, that that which was intended to be permanent in
1668, because so materially changed as it was changed L
the union with See tland. Sir, that change was effeeteg,
for a great and a useful purpose, and with a view to remove
from us a great public danger. We then admitted to this
and to the other House of Parliament a number of irelivi-
duals who held doctrines very different to the Church et'
England. if I refer to the Presbyterian ritual shall I toms
find that there was then an essential inroad made upon
episcopacy? It was, however, just anti wise to enact this
measure, the union of Church and State not being lee,
paired by it. Sir, the Honourable Member for Yorkehire
said that his great objection to the granting of thie mea-
sure admitted of no alteration, and that it now was
what it had always been. I think if he had looked
at the declarations of their universities he would have
seen that the noxious doctrines to which the Ho-
nourable Member referred have been disavowed by them
--disavowed too by those who are hest. enabled to un-
derstand and define them. When the Honourable
Member says that the Roman Catholic religion has beer,
always the same as it now is, does he mean to say that
it was the same when Louis the Fourteenth repealed the
edict of Nante, and when that haqhty and unfeeling
monarch ruled the destinies of France, as it now is, wheh
an amiable and kind-hearted Monarch rules over that
country? No, Sir; that religion has undergone the
change to which all human things are liable—it has been
improved, all human institutions must iu process of
time be. It is in vain to argue at any further length upon
a topic, which every Hon. Gentleman lutist see and be
convinced, that there is nothing in the argument that the
Roman Catholic religion remains unchanged and unchange-
able. Sir, I have always understood that in England it is
one of the proudest feelings that an Englishman can pos-
sess, that whatever he his station, he inay, by possibility,
attain to the highest offices of the State. Certainly it is
not in time House of Comusous--certainly it is not from
the bench upon which I now have a seat—certainly it is
not I who can be suspected of underrating this important
privilege. If holding, as I do, a high station in the coun-
try, however unworthily, I were to say to the Ca -
tholic, whatever were his merit, however distin-
guished his talents, however exemplary his charae-
ter—" The privilege which placed me here is denied
in your defence
to yon"—if I hold such language to time Catholic, auct
to administer
he inquire why that privilege is denied him, I am
fan ,bare, but you deny
obliged to add this degrading expression—" Because' shit
are considered unworthy of trust--because you are not to
be believed upon your oath." When you call uponi the
soldier to fight your battles, you administer to hum au
—youoath, apnedrran•oitu
isiiuffmetrohsaimrvetousphoedn hjuisrib"lo.odo
• that can tend ta
progress in public
the law in cases of life and death--in
your service you admit hint to a
to him the benefits which he merits ia return ; and why
same interests attach him to the !realise' I think, Sir,
Because he is not to be treuos
that 0-44 question has wade
::pinion in this countrys sad such progress is still
.t not forget that .11 tl •
e there is going on—but we roust d th • •
.0 eeeelan m there is a progressive evil in
progressive good '.•
hie must
Ireland—ate evil w g itably spread unless
checked by a eeneiha Governmentin there. Sir, when
heard, as I Lace heard this House, and with notch
• such violent
surprise, language as that proposed to meet
by putting it
the'dar,gerdown by force, I am loth to un-
its meaning.
tlerstand Let us recollect, that if we engage
in a struggle we shall not only have to contend with the
population of Ireland, but with half the influential feeling;
of this, country, and %vitt' that which I am sure every
good mind would avoid ; but, Sir, it is the part of wisdom
so mistrust our own views—it is the part of good sense "re
inculcate justice, it is the part of prudence to yield in
good tilde, and with a good grace, that which, happete
what 'nay, cannot be long delayed.—(The Right Hon.
Member then proceeded to state, that securities. might he
suggested, if the measure went into Committee, where
ample means might be afforded of pointing them out). t
hope, he continued, that, in thus laying down the view I
have taken, the view I have always taken, of this great and
important question, I have discussed it with that temper and
discretion of which so admirable an example was set me by
my Right Hon. Friend. It gives me pain to differ from him
upon this only subject upon which we differ; but th„pg.
Monti I entertain I have long kept ; and the longer I live the
trusted
a country
Where
the
greater is my conviction of the fatal consequences, by the dife
fealties in which it may be involved, if any such difficul
ties should arise as those which occurred during the late
,var. We have already made many conceseions to the

Roman Catholics. Some of theM it was known
have been made too much in the presence of a foreign
Power: Some of them lam appeared too like parleying