The Sun.
London, England, 1810-05-26 00:00:00

Honourable Gentleman. It would be tiphecessary
for him to dwell much at length on the arguments
adduced by the Right. Hon. Gentleman when he
br‘ought his motion -forward. The most zealous
advocates of the Catholics' cause had f(irmerly stat-
ed,_ that concessions would be made ~which .after-
wards, as it turned out, the Catholics Were nut dis-
posed to make. That was the slim- ground on which
the motion had, in a former SeSsion, been resisted,and
that was the ground upon which he should now
vote against it. -The House would see the eNtraor7
Binary situation in which they were placed: in con-
sequence of what the Rtht Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Ponsonby) two years since had stated on the sub-
jeet. That Right Hon. Gentleman had stated,
that he was authorized to declare, on the part of
the Catholics, that they were ready to give his Ma-
jesty a negatiVe in the nomination of Bishops, pro-
tided their claims were admitted, and they were
allowed equal participation with their Protestant
brethren. When the Right Hon. Gentleman was
'questioned as to the source from whence .he de-
rived his authority, he replied, from Dr. .Milner,
the accredited agent
.of the Catholics in England.
It was' on that concession that Parliament was
disposed to attend to the petitions; but what
followed 'that declaration ? Ina few an'mths after-
wards; a meeting of the Roman Catholic Bi-
shops was held, at •which they came to a resolu,
doll; directly and positively- stating, that they
never should concede to the Crown the yower of
nominating their Bishops. Dr. Milner had subse-
quently published several pamphlets, denying that
he had ever warranted 'such a proposal to be made.
This was not all, for after the debates on this subject,
what was the information which the. Public had subse-
quently received ? Lord Grenville had stated, that
he had received the most flattering acknowlectg-.
rrient-Sfrom the body of Catholics for the exertions
j)e had made in their behalf, and he stated, that he

she .would-,prove our strength, and:security. All tho
was now asliA that. the House should go i:An
Corptifittee. There were no grent, concess this
; let only the-Comw 13 ittee be gone info. • ~,;in
only by giving to the Petitioners small concessions.
WWI small conces-:ions they would at first "e satis-
fied.; and 'when-Gentlemen saw that they asked, no
more than was reasOnable, then let them pr ,e ed to
give them the full.extent of their'demand. What
was the state of Europe•ai this moment , Was it
not reduced under toe dominion .of one man, the
greatest, proba!)ly, whom the woriCi had ever. pro-
duced ;—one who was sent, as it were by Provi*--
derice, to, accomplish things which, could hardly
have been supposed pra6ticable. He ‘k as a man not
only of great talents, but probably of greater talents
than any other ,-nan of recent times or of antiquity,
who had ever existed. His talents were equally
gigantic with his ambition ; and the people whom
he commanded were equally endowed with talent,
and also with ambition, as himself. ,It was in the,
power.of 'Britain not only to do -away any antipathy
which their conda& towards the Irish' might have
created, but even to convert it into the most in—
violable friend. The Irish. were willing. to prove
themselVes the rallying point of the Empire against
the French Governor, who wished to makehim-
self the uncontrouled Sovereign of -the world.
Was it then a sufficient 'answer to-say, when thuS
Called on, that because you (the Cat holicsy would
not advance some steps,. which, in, fact, wet,
of no import, they (the -British' Pailiaineot). would
do nothing ? In his opinion it became the bounden
duty of the People and Parliament of this country
to say to their Irish Brethren, we are ready ro make
-the first advance. The nature of the People of Ire-
land was to feel insult 'in' the most .acute degree ;
and the only way to govern their] was by' affettion
—force never would gov6rn them ; England had
,tried that mode for centuries, and vas Ireland more

Mad t. 1.4; same authority for the proposition.. Now
it appeared very singular, the proposal having been
made in this House and elsewhere, that the same

secure to her now than at any- former period ? ,The
Union, above all things, was ualoilate,d to awaken
this feeling. If the people of Ireland felt, even

Dr, Milner should, in a publiCatiOnedeclare, " That after a measure of this kind, that -they were to he
he..would lose the last drop of his blood before he kept in a state of subserviency and degradation, •
wouldeconsent to a proposition not sanctioned by must they: not naturally leek.. fore redress ? Would
the general body' of • the Catholics." The Houses they not even be driven to the most desperate mea-
and the Public had not yet bee informed 'how the sures to accomplish it They would naturally be
delusion vkas pradised. The Right Honourable led to think the Union the very worst measure that
Get-Alen-ran had not condescended to explain, but had ever been adoped ; and the ambition of. the
had passed it over altogether. He was happy• to Ruler of France would not leave them long without
have the opportunity of -making these observations knowing where to apply for assistance. It might-
in the presence of the Right. Honourable Gen- not be the duty of a Member of Parliament to state
tleielan, because he trusted the explanation would what was the opinion of the, Sovereign on any par-
now come. He '!'illno' wish to impute to the Right -ticular .subjed, but, unquestionably, it became the
Hon. Geis eau any motive which he would not 1 duty of a Minister, when The point at issue -was. one
disavow, but was ready to believe, that he might most conducive to the suppoit of the 'Throne, to t.
have been deceived. At the sauce time it wan warn theSovereigte of the teelings' and, sentiments
streteee that seen proposition having been made of his People, and even to enforce on the 'Royal ear ,
(which must have originated in misunderstanding) the necessity of compliance, though that measure
toe misunderstanding should not, between enlight- should not he agreeable.- It might not- be in the
erred teen, have been explained. His Majesty's power ,of a Mihister to effect a change in the senti- •
Governmettt were exposed, to all thd-attacks of the rnents of the Sovereign, but still he had it in his
friends of the Catholic cause, were charged with power Out to remain longer in the ptiblic service.-
intolerance and bigotry for not complying. with Amerce was lost to this country not -by the advice;
their demand., when, in point of fact, they knew .of Ministers, but-by a vote of that House ; and if
there Was a decided and insurmountable objection ,Parliament was not on its guard, so would 'it be
to giving the veto. It was a duty which he owed
.to with Ireland. It was the duty of the servants er•
himself to get up and explain. As to the question the Crown to proceed_to the discharge of their a‘o.
at present under discussion, he would quote from a ; caiions-free from any bond or obligation whatever.
publication of Lord Grenville's just before the ; His Majesty, however, had been advised to ask
ire of Parliament, which- was in the hands of every ftomi his present 'Ministers, a pledge, 'that they
man, and contained opinions. concurrent with his should never intrude on him any adViCe as to the
own. It would be recollected that this publication propriety of acceding to the wishes of his Catholic
came from amen of distinguished rank, of great li- .subjects eif such counsels were to be
.persevered, in,
terary attainment, and of unquellionable ability; it be could not pretend to sap---he dreaded to content-,
was circulated too at a peculiar time, _when an idea- plate—where the matter might end.
had gone forth among that, .Noble Lord's friends,, The CHANCELLOR of . the EXCHEQUER observed,
that he was to be placed at the head of the Govern- that however eloquent and able the speech of , the
went. It therefore must be considered as the po- Hon. Gentleman might be, he -certainly did not
litical creed of the great Leader of • the Right Hon. think he would receive the praises ef ,those„enco-.
Gentleman's party. • The Right Honourable Se- I mia,ts WhO applatided, and justly -applauded, the
cretary then read an extract iron% the pamphlet, Hon. Mover of the present question, for the 'calm-
in which the author states that the question was not 1 ness and endeavour at recenciliation with which he.
a single nor unconpe‘,,ted one ; much was to be done had introduced it to the consideration of the House,
for the.establishment of the. mutual rights of both Whatever impression, however, the violence of the
religions et point of concession, that having pointed Hon. Gentleman had made on hiS mind and on
out the necessity of &needing the veto, but that the mind of others,, he would most unaffectedly state:
beieg.deuied, he saw much of unexampled embar- (and the Hon. Gentleman might give Mile credit
rassment and difficulty in the question, connected as or not for that statement as he chose.) that be de-'
it was with England, his deliberate cipinion was, ' derived great satisfaction froin that part of the Hon. .
that great -and permanent obstacles would arise to Gentleman's speech in which he cleared himself-
thp accomplishment of the object. " That was the from an imputation which before ceitainly seemed I.
opinion of Lout Gren' ilk, and, said the Right Hon. to require a very full. explanation. He had great
Gentleman, is my opinion, -under, these circum- satisfaction at finding that 'the Honourable Gentle-
stances, I cannot vote for the-motion of the Right i man-and his Noble FrtOini—tvvo individuals,-whose
Hon. Gentleman." -On these grounds -not wishing characters unquestionably stood very high in the
to sport with the feelings of the Catholics, he could .public regard; had 'hot been convicted of grossly. and
not -consent _to raise hopes and expectations which foully imposing upon the House and the.Ptiblic, by.
could never be realized.. - i holding our tallacioos motives to -endeavour to in-:
Lord_ Deits'euv was instructed on the -part of a I duce Parliament to adopt- a course of conduct,
large portion of the Protestant Freeholders of the which, under other cireuiostarices,`there could not
extensive and. populous county which he represented have been the slightest doubt of their. rejecting,- If
to state, that they wished their Catholic fellowesub, he had any fault to had with the conduct of the
*ts,to share in common with them the same rights, Hon. Gentleman on this subject,. it would be
privileges, and immunities. I forbearing immediately to .communicate the etrer
.... Mr. pousoNaY asserted that the friends of the into which he, had been led. It was due to the 1-16 use
Irish Catholics in Parliament had authority frotn, that they ought-not to have been lett so long in a
their Delegate in this Country to offer their acces- mistake, and that-the individual who was the origi-
sion to the- Veto. This be shewed by referring to a nal instrument of the deception ought to have been
card upon which; Dr. Milner, in presence of Lord i represented to . them in his proper colours. It was
Fingal, marked the terms of the Veto, and still more . somewhat singular .that this individual, in his letter
front a letter written by the Doctor_ the day after to Lord .Stourton,. forming. an' appendix :to Mr.
that interview, in which letter the Dodor stated Keogh's pamphlet, had anticipated. the manner in
,his desire to communicate mote di4tinctly the pro- 1 which he should .be attacked in -.Parliament. In
position of. the C,itholic Prelates. - In
,order that ; the postcript.to that letter, Dr. Milner said, " The
there should be no misunderstanding, this
.proposi- presenting of the Petition. in Parliament, mey pos-
lion was, that the CatholiC Prelates were willing to sibly induce one Member to taunt another with
.giVe a direa negatite power to his Majesty's Go- questions concerning his authority for making a cer-
vernmeni —open the appointment of the prelacy in fain offer; and, it is possible that the latter may
future. The withluilding of this, however, be now 1 again make use of my name, and of a hasty short
content', d, was only held out to them as a taunte-;-
,note which I- sent to him, not as. a proposal (for
Would the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite I never had an idea of such a thing till I beard it in
(Mr. Ryder), pretend to say, that if this were
,con- i the House) but barely as,a supplement to a short
ceded he would support the Catholic cause He conversation which .1 had just been honoured with
begged to, ask, what pretence the,-Right Honourable ,by that Gentleman, and which note I scribbled at a
Gentleman had, to demand concessions from the bookseller's shop as I was returning home. In this
Catholics and yet to give them. none ? Was every supposition, it will be incumbent on me, after hay-
concession to be detneeded from them, and none to ing been burnt in effigy mere or leas, in his de-
be made- in return ? Veto or no- Veto was not the fence, .in Ireland, and after standing the bating of
question, but whether, in such circumstances, the j of the Ministerial Writers in the Horning Post,
concessions should not be mutual ? 'Were the Irish and after having pleaded his cause as far as-ever
to understand that the terms of reconciliation belt; truth would permit me to. go in the Morning
our. to them were of no meaning) That they were Chronicle—it will be incumbent on
.Me, I say, to
words proceeding from the lips, but not meant to bring toy documents and other poufs,
.fairly and
-convey the meaning of.the heart ? He decldred his. fully forward, in order, as I haveso-of ten been call-
conviction, that there was' no danger to be appre- eel upon to do, te convince the public thati never
headed hem IrelAnd but that, if properly treated', gave authority for bringing for Ward Op proposal,