The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

side. Honest John should try his fortune in the south,
where wonders always attract, one of the large gentte-;
Mill playing the pipe would complete the matter.—
Ron/tire Adve, tiser.

----- -
THE SEASON AND TEE CRops.—The weather
still continues very cold for the season of the year, but now that
the rain has begun to fall freely, the temperature is likely to be-
come milder. There has never been a better season for getting the
erring crops into the ground than the present, or one when the
ground was in finer order for receiving them. In some places the
wheat is salt to have suffered, but that Is not the case in this
neighbourhood. During the last fortnight it has rallied wonder.
fully, and with favourable weather for the rest of the season, will
prove a very good crop. The great want at present is the want
of grass, the pastures being bate beyoni all example.—Liverpool
Times.

Mr. Lawrence and Lady Jane Peel and family
have, after a lengthened residence at Paris, retutnedtothis country.
IVELODISTS.—There are four candidates for the
prize offered by his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge
for the best convivial duet, which be awarded by his
Royal Highness, at the Alelodists' Club, on the 24th inst.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, April 16.
MAYNOOTH—ADJ OURNED DEBATE.
Mr. ELLICE (Coventry), who said that it was not
his intention (contrary to his general usage),
to give a silent vote on the present occasion.
So much c xcitement had been got up, and he
bad received so many petitions from respectable
bodies of' his constituents against the opinion which he
entertained on this subject, that he felt himself com-
pelled, with much reluctance, to state very shortly
the reasons which would induce him without the least
hesitation to give his cordial support to the second
reading of this Bill. He might probably hereafter vote
with his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield on the
motion of which he had given notice, with respect
to the quarter from which all funds should
be taken for the advancement of religion
and religious education iii Ireland ; but he
(Mr. Ellice) was prepared now to state, that if he
should fail with his Hon. Friend in carrying that
proposition into effect, still he would give his support to
the present measure, believing it to be an act of tardy
justice, and a partial restitution to the Irish
people.—(Hear and cheers.) He would not follow the
Hou. Gentleman who had just sat down, in the religious
objections which he had advanced to this motion. He
did not think, after so many nights' debate, and with he
prospect of as many more—(Laughter)—that he had any
right to waste the time of the House in discussing that
subject. He said this without the least want of respect
to the Hon. G: ntleman himself, or the manner in which
he had stated his objections on this subject. But he
(Mr. Ellice) felt himself called upon to give
an (pinion upon measures introduced for the
benefit and advantage of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not follow the Hon. Gentleman into the ex-
pression of those opinions en the religious subjects
which he had brought before Parliament He could not
say that because his opinions happened to coincide
with those of one-tenth of the people of Ireland,
that ho should impose his opinions on the remainder.
He could not conceive under what circumstances this
country could persevere in a se': tem which thus
outraged the feelings of a great portion of the
country. According to the view of the Hon. Gentle-
man, those who constituted four-fifths of the population
were to receive this grant of money from the
Government of this country because they
differed in opinion with him. Why, the Ho-
nourable Gentleman had expressed his approbation
of the regium donum, and .of all the other grants
to the Church of Scotland, and he could not conceive
on what principle it was that, while he approved of those
grants, and of the approbation bestowed on some
congregations in the north of Ireland, he was
so opposed to any assistance to the Church of Rome,
and the several parties were with respect to the Govern-
ment precisely in the same position.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear," and " No, no," from Mr. Hamilton.) Whet, did the
Hon. Gentleman mean to say that there was a greater
difference of opinion between the Church of England and
the Socinians, than there was between the Church of
Rome and the Church of this country? In giving his
vote on this occasion, be should be guided by the same
principles as those which had regulated his conduct
during the whole of the time he had held a seat in that
House—that principle was, that every man in the coun-
try was entitled to equal protection from the State,
whatever might be his creed or opinion. He could as-
sert that the poor Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland
were, in morality, general good conduct, and
conscientious discharge of duty, behind no set
of men in either country. And if they were accused—
perhaps rightly accused—of being connected with the
political agitation in Ireland, he would, in justification of
the patriotic principles for which that body had ever
been distinguished, ask "to whom the fault was to he
ascribed? It was well known that the Catholic priest-
hood were dependent upon their congregations—that
they were inwrought with them in sympathy and
interest ; and if they saw a sinecure rector in the
posssession of those revenues which had been wrested
from them by the violence of conquest, was
it to be wondered at that they partook in that agita-
tion through which those revenues were to be recovered?
He did not go back to those subjects, in order to recall
the past ; but in order to assign good reasons why the
Roman Catholic priests had very little cause to be at-
tached to their institution. The only difficulty which
he felt on this subject, was his great objection to vote
money out of the public taxes for any sectarian purpose.
But he believed that this was a great case of exception.
—(bear, hear.) He thought that the funds applicable to
ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland were those from which
the wants of the Roman Catholic people ought to be
supplied.—(Hear, hear.) There were large funds, and
of all the complaints which he had ever heard in that
House, the most senseless complaint was, that the Pro-
testant Church of Ireland was not amply provided for.
He heard complaints of the want of funds for churches
and schools for the Protestants of Ireland, but were not
the funds which they possessed amply sufficient for those
purposes? Why, the collection of tithes in Ireland was
so odious that the clergy were obliged to give up 25 per
cent. of their incomes. Whenever the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite wished, or was compelled to go forward
in the course he had begun, he must look to those
funds —(Hear, hear.) The State owed a deep debt to
the poor Roman Catholic people of Ireland, and
he had heard with great pleasure the idea of
restitution thrown out during the present debate.
Looking to the necessities of the people of Ireland, to
their poverty, to their actual inability to supply funds
for the religious education of their priesthood, he thought
it would be an act of unmitigated injustice if the House
were to reject the parsimonious grant now asked from
the public purse. In the north of Ireland these was,
he admitted, a majority of Protestants, but look at the
anomalous position of the Catholics there. On the one
side, he saw the Church of England and the landed pro-
prietors ; on the other, the poor Catholic cottiers, whilst
the Presbyterians held the middle position, being for
the most part the tenantry. They had endowed
the Church of England there with the plunder
of Roman Catholics, and they gave the Pres
byterians the regium donum, and yet some would re-
fuse the Catholics this poor pittance.—(Hear, hear.)
He asked the House whether after raising the hopes of
the people of Ireland they would now disappoint them?
He (lid not know what the intentions of the Government
might be—their measures generally came unawares upon
the House; but when be looked at tho Bequest Bill of
last year, then at Lord Devon's commission, and then at
this Bill, he could not help thinking they were embarked
in a new course.—(Hear, hear.) A course which he en-
tirely approved of, and, he had much greater objec-
tions to voting away this money, he should be
very reluctant, under the present circumstances,
to give any opposition to it. The former
policy of this House towards Ireland was
now about to be abandoned, and a more conciliatory and
healing course adopted. The people of Ireland had wit
nessed the disposition of the Legislature. But what
would the consequence be if they were to retrace their
steps, reject the present measure, and resume their
former unfortunate course of policy towards Ireland ?
Why the people of that comity would be thrown into
the most abject despair, and civil war would follow the
return of this system. Ho had stated before, that the
treatment of Mahomet over the nations he had conquered
was merciful compared to the treatment of Ireland
by England. Mahomet only persecuted one generation,
whilst England had persecuted sevei al.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought the policy pursued by the Government to-
wards Ireland was at present good. Much had been
said about their motivee and certainly the propositions
now laid before the House were very different from those
which had hitherto emanated from a Tory Government.
It was impossible any longer to continue Tory princi-
ples, and he was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site knew perfectly well the keen Opposition of those
benches if he continued or maintained those principles.
The principle of the old Parliament was to grant money
profusely to everybody. They for instance granted
700,000/. to the Protestant Church in Ireland for many
years, for the purpose of building Protestant Churches.
They granted one million of money to indemnify the
same Church, for its loss of tithes. How then could Par-
liament refuse this paltry grant under present circum-
stances ? There had been a great amount of feeling
expressed on this subject out of doors. Some
of them according with the sentiments expressed
by the Honourable Member for Dublin, but the
largest portion of them depended solely upon one
point—namely, the grant of money out of the public
taxes for sectarian purposes. He concurred with that
principle, and as a rule he would grant no money out
of the public taxes for the purpose of any religion,
either in this country or in Ireland. But it seemed to
him, that an exception was established in the case of the
poor Catholics. It appeared to him that after the enor-
mous grants made to the Protestants, that House could
hardly refuse the small pittance now proposed to be
made to them.—(Hear.) If they refused the grant, it
would not only be pregnant with danger to the
country, but it would be an act of great
injustice to Ireland, and widen the gap which
existed between the two countries. He therefore coun-
selled the Right Hon. Baronet to go on as he had com-
menced. He, however, did not wish to force him or the
Government to prematurely ihtrotluce measures which
might possibly create excitement amongst the Protes-
tant people of Ireland, but he was sure the Government,
by preparing the public mind through calm reasoning,
would at last succeed in reconciling the Protestant peo-
ple of England to measures calculated to do justice
to the Catholic Church. He had to thank the
House for giving him an opportunity of ex-
pressing his opinion on the subject. and he could as-
sure them that he never sat down with a greater convic-
tion that he was doing right by the country and by his
constituents in giving his cordial support to the motion
before the House.

Mr. GORING rose in opposition to this measure,
and said, in answer to the accusations made by Hon.
Members against those Gent'emu,: on his side of the
House,who opposed the measure, he would only tako

the liberty of appealing to the Roman Catholic Gent es:
men on the opposite side whether, if put in their ti
doctrinesleg
they could conscientiously bestow money for
exclusively intended for the promulgation of
opposed to their own ? He would protest agateasat,,tohne
truth of the saying that encouragement and tolr
were t? :e same.—(Hear, hear.) He would c•PPu!'„,
e
this Bill, because he thought that it would be a L'e
rious insult to the Protestant Church of this country
—(Hear.) It was said that this measure was intro-
duced to conciliate the people of Ireland. Rednieads
that such a Bill would produce such a result. flu iv
certain that it would be regarded with alarm by the.
agricultural interest of this country—(Laughter
" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sihthorp)—and it wpUld
be a deep insult to the Protestants of Ireland.
who
Lord ASHLEY said that the position of those
voted for this Bill was far If ss difficult than that of
those aho opposed it. The former had not only t.o°
speak of what may be considered an evil, but bad to
speak to those Gentlemen here present who were dee_l!"ll.,
interested. The latter had to urge what may be CO".
sidered speculation, against that which the others main
tained to be accurate. They had to speak tothewl,
and desires of many gentlemen there, differing iron! In_ efs.
but for many of whom they entertained the greates!7„
spect, and with whom they lived on terms of close tu__".
macy ; it was for these reasons that he felt a greatc
pugnance in opposing a measure which did nut ae
with his conscientious belief. The measure, however,,
had been propounded by her Majesty's Government, a 1
they must address themselves to the discussion of it with
as much forbearance as they could. He was at all times
.
unwilling to press himself upon the attention of
abstain
House, and if he could have found it possible to absl!_,
altogether from addressing the House on a subject
of such painful anxiety he would have withheld illobservations. The question was one which ought tot,
re-
ceive the most minute and full investigation.—Meaver.l
In importance, it exceeded any measure that had ever
been introduced into the House in his remembrance's
(Hear, hear) For good or for evil to Ireland, a meas,lre
1
of more va-t importance had never been intriduced
(Hear, hear.) It exceeded in importarce the Boma"Catholic Relief Bill. When they removed civil or
abilities from the Roman Catholics they removed ka"
strictions, and gave those who had suffered from those
restrictions full scope for free action. But in the Pre-
sent case they not only removed restrictions but they
joined in the flee action which that removal gave.--
(Hear, hear.) They gave all the support which they'
could confer to the activity of that tree action
they had given by the measure of 1829. • If the measu;:,
worked well, it would work the regeneration of Ireland'
—(Opposition cheers.) It would conciliate the affec,ion
of the Irieh people. He admitted that such would be the
s
-case if the measure worked well.—(Hear, hear.)
.13et,
on the other hand, if it worked ill, he verily believed ,
that it would lead to the destruction of the Protestant
Establishment.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side ot
the House.) And he felt that the perils of the measure
were ten times more hazaidous than those of any In:
sure that had ever been submitted to the considerath9l
of Parliament. In discussing this question they cools
not but consider the cons( quences—t he natural, not t°.
forced consequences—which might flow from the enact,
meat of this Bill. He would not enter into the coos''
deration of the theological question—he would not
enter into the examination of the question, how far it
was admissible to vote money for the fostering of a re-
ligion, from which those who voted that money
te
might dissent. That was not necessary for the
line of argument which he intended to Oct.,
But there was an objection that had been taken against
measure, both by the people at large and by all who opPon
the grant in that House—that it would be an endowment
the Roman Catholic Church by Act of Parliament. This 0
ob-
jection was common to all the memorialists and all the pear
timers who had appeared in that House. Whether they ,ree°
members of Dissenting connexions, whether they were at-
tached to the moderate party in the Church of England. Of
whether they belonged to those high' theologians who had °I,
late obtained so much notice in the country, they agreed .
this one respect, that they all objected to the grant. Now,
was very true that the original constitution of the College 0.!
Maynooth was based upon an Act of Parliament; but an Act
of Parliament of that day was very different from su
Act of Parliament in this. The Act of Partial:ll°st
by mliich Maynooth was founded was a repeal of Ors.
to
penal Acts by which the statute-book was disfigured. With-
out
the repeal, he believed it would have been impossible ,
have founded that College at all, and the Act which audit:AA:le'
the establishment of the College was only one in aid, and n'
one for an original endowment by the State. Now, the present
Act was of a very different complexion. It gave this endow'
ment to trustees in perpetual succession. It was an endoW"
ment in perpetuity by the Imperial Parliamer t, with the ail
of 2‘i,000/,. The people of this country could not understand
on what principle the Government could either rely on thePrei
vious Acts of Parliament, or justify the application of a sum °f
this amount to a 'Roman Catholic College, or why, at the Pre"
sent time, when there was no particular call for assistance, thei -
whole of the expenses of the College should be
provided by, the
State. The previous grants had been small sums, PI:
in aid of contributions made for the education of
Roman Catholic students in this College. But now the Olt
constituted the present pram a perpetual endowment. It plar`-
that College on the same footing, but only in a more I'o°7
able way, with the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge.
Dublin, and he believed that the people of this country won
rather than this endowment should be carried into effect that
`the previous annual grant should have been increased tbreefoh;
They said that this was a perpetual recognition of the Roman
Catholic Church as one of the standing institutions of this ern_
pire.—( Hear, hear.) He bad no doubt that this recog"'"n
by the State of the Church of Ireland, as one of the institution,
of the country, had sunk deeper into the hearts of the people of
this country than if they had increased the former grant. ‘VII,Y
this measure amounted to this. It declared, on the part of tee
State, that as far as they could, the Roman Catholic religioa,
would never cease to be the religion of Ireland, because, shoe!'
there be at any time a disinclination on the part of the peel°
to spend money in support'' of that Church, the State
would step in ER the purpose of keeping up the
College—by keeping up the supply which, if attar
sisted by them, the people would also abandon. 11%)°,;
this was certainly going beyond toleration.—(" Hear, hear,
and cheer:.) It was going to an extent such as he was eel;
taro no conscientious Catholic would himself
go to. He
not see how it was possible, after the House had affirmed this
measure, to refuse its assent at a future period to an endear;
merit of the Catholic Church, and the words which bad
dropped in the course of this debate from the Right Hon. Gen'
tleman the Member for Dungarvon would seem to justify the
impression that ulterior concessions would be looked for
There was a large party in that House who were of opini°°
that this Bill was but the herald of other measures still more
If
important. He would speak from his own conviction, that ,
he had made up his mind to vote for this
grant, he should fee'
himself bound to vote for the endowment when that question '
came before the House. If the object of the Government wash'
as stated, to elevate the character of the Irish
priesthood, and to improve the condition of t"'"
people. If they, by those collegiate advantages, raised the
priests to a higher level, then he (Lord Ashley)' contend 4
they ought to keep them there. Theyought not to say to the Ine°
who had been elevated in the scale of reason by this coant...„l'
" Now, go imitate your predecessors, by travelling from h°" to house to earn a precarious livelihood." Why, would not
that tend more to the degradation of the Irish priesthood, after
the advantages they had received, than if they had left then'
in their former position. If they did not carry out their polioy. to this extent, he did not see how they could improve the
,
priesthood. To make them independent in principle, the'
should make them independent of the people; and how cool they be independent of the people if the Government did
not
step in to their assistance by an endowment ? Were they not
told by an Hon. Gentleman that the sympathies of the Iri" priest must be with the flock on whom he was dependent ?
they wished to make the priests draw their flocks and not be
led by them—if they wished to make them independent of their
flocks—for it had been admitted that that was necessary—they
must endow the Irish priesthood, and recognise the Irish Church:
Where would they end if they once admitted this prince
pie? They would have two co-existing Established Churche,-
They would have the Roman Catholic Church established by' •
statute, and they would have the Established Church of Enr
land. What would be the result? They would have a pope'
lation of 7,000,000 receiving for their establishment 500,110"
and a population of one million receiving double that amount:"
—(Coed Opposition cheers.) The very instant they brought
themselves to regard R"man Catholic principles as not dan-
gerous or subversive to the interests of the State, that veil instant a re-construction appeared to be inevitable. But even , before that, what would they require to do? They would
have to take from the Church as now established
the jurisdiction which they gave to the other, and thus render'
altogether nugatory the means which they had considered •
best ealculatod to advance the interests of civilization and of
good government. They would have two Establishments die'
Proportioned in numbers, and animated by an unquenchable
spirit of rivalry. He wished to observe that in objecting to
his measure he was not acting from anyilliberal principles. Be
acted as a friend of Ireland had done before in that House
he he meant Lord Monteagle, then Mr. Spring Rice, who
00-
jetted to the removal of the grant from the annual estimates*
because he thought that Parliament should have the supervision,
of the grant year after year. As he (Lord Ashley) had said
before, so he would say again, that there had been no part of
the question which had excited more displeasure than the idea
of making this a perpetual endowment. He did hope that ia
opposing such a Bill he should not be considered actuated by
any feeling of hostility towards the people of Ireland.
He
thought that the people of Ireland deserved not sympathy alone
at their hands, but reparation also.—( Hear, hear.) He never
c-uld read the records of that unfortunate country without a
feeling of shame for the injuries she had suffered.—(Hear.)
If he thought that this concession would really content the
people of Ireland, he should hesitate before he opposed it. But
he never yet saw any good come of what were generally consi-
dered concessions. There fell, the other evening, from a Right
Hon. Gentleman, one of the more important of the Irish Mew' '
berm in that House, he meant the Member for Dungarvon. '
some remarkable words, to which he (Lord Ashley) paid at the
time marked attention. He warned the Right flon. Baronet
at the bead of the Government that the Catholics of Ireland
wanted to be placed upon an equality with the Protestants
of that country, and he told him that if the f.
present system of exclusion from Trinity College were conti-
nued, the measure now brought forward would not have an-
swered . . the desired end. So that it appeared that even if this
measure were carried there was at least another that must be . also carried before the Catholics of Ireland could be in any
degree satisfied. Had these expressions come from any ordi-
nary person he (Lord Ashley) should not have paid the same
attention to them, but coming from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Dungarvon he was bound to respect
them. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was pellectlY , Justified in these expressions, for when the Catholic Relief Bill ens passed it was well under stood on all sides that it was but
the forerunner of still greater concessions. If the promoters
of that measure had said that concession had not reached its
limit, then he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was pet"
fectly justified in stating what his demands were. Still more
would he make that, concession, if he thought it was conferring •
a lasting benefit upon Ireland, but they should recollect that
disappointment in a matter of this kind brought increased
misery and dismay upon the people. He was called on to give his vote upon that question, and he could not assent to a We'"
sure that, so far from conferring peace, would, he was con-
vinced, engender most hostile feelings in the 'people of both
countries. Neither could he consent to a measure that would,
in any degree, suppress or retard the advance of that Protes-
tant faith, which he believed had been a main instrument in
bringing about the present state of civilisation and religious
freedom.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was aware
that he was about to take a course which he felt wag
at variance with the opinions expressed by many of his
friends in and out of that House. It had been raid by a Noble
Lord that they were about to make an enormous grant for
the endowment of the Roman Catho'ic priesthood of Ireland:
but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not think that
17,0L0/. could be considered by any means an enormous in-
crease, when the purposes for which it was required were taker&
into consideration. He should rather be inclined to say, that
the satisfaction with which this measure had been received, the