The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-14 00:00:00

eeeseesee.
'nary official messengers. The papers had been put into
a box and locked up with a new lock, of which he done
had the key. He had given ti e box and key, with his
OTXII hands, to another Member of the Board, whip 'should
rat like manner give it to anoth r Nltinitiet of the Board,
and so on, until it was returned to him. There
has no key to that box, with the exception of
e master-key, which he wore round his own neck.
The box was never out of the custody of a member of
the Board of Trade, and it was physically impossible
fur
any one but a member of the Board of Trade to have
access to it. With respect to the decisions of the Board,
they had all, with one exception, been come to on the
day on which they had been published. The minutes
lead been written at the Board by the secretary of the
lioard; the notices for the Gazette had been prepared at
'the Board by the secretary, and had been copied by him
there. No one could have any knowledge of those de-
cisions until after their publication in the Gazelle. It
might be considered that after those minutes had been
placed in the hands of the editor of the Gazette, the
responsibility of the Board of Trade ceased ; but they
land taken every precaution to prevent persons connected
with the Carafe from an improper use of those docu-
inents. The Stock Exchange was closed at four o'clock,
and the papers were never put into the hands of the edi-
etoa)
rliu,ntil it was so near four o'clock that it was physi-
impossible that he could by any means of convey-
ance reach the Stock Exchange before that hour. lie
was aware that it was not necessary for him to enter into
this vindication before their Lordships, but he felt called
upon to do so in consequence of what had been said upon
u• But suppose that railway speculators, calculating
Ipttproenhas,l
ths:tecisions of the Board of Trade, had made
it did not follow that the intentions of the
hoard had beon made public ; for any person of ordinary
jh rewdoess, looking at the reports of last year, and hay-
eg seen the early reports of the Board of Trade, could calculate upon the principle on which that Board would
Proceed. Many of the journals had made accurate
calculations of their decisions. The principle on
Which they decided was to secure the greatest
The antage to the public.—(Cries of " Hear, hear."r decisions were open to the review of Parliament)
If those decisions were .
erroneous, they would be treated
I"4 mass of worthless papers, but the Board of Trade
"ad endeavoured to discharge the heavy task, attended
43 it was with the most oppressive responsibility, which
Iliad been laid on them by Parliament, without fa.-eour
or fear, and they had adopted this principle as their
guide—that having a due regard to the ,rational and
local interests they should decide in savour of that line
Which appeared to them to to the country the
greatest attainable amount of public good.—(Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM
0 Parliament of late
most important sub',
and Lo!' the thw remarks
considered that this was the
ect which had engaged the attention
years. He begged leave, in the
which he was about to make,
illn`xliWir.ch were extracted from him by a deep and.
t, ems consideration of the great interests involved in
"alequestion—he begged leave, not only to absolve his
"hie Friend, but also his colleagues, from all blame
lhei%,,t,:pLer- Indeed, he had never heard of any charge
'lion that her
against them till he heard their vindica-
torbithat „enine.
g He had himself no connexion, God
he dghter)—with any railway, having never
disienvtQer likely to do so, and therefore he was speaking
his N r,estedly. He could not but express surprise adt
eee ;mitt Friend saying that the report of the BoaT
-jet' not influence 'Parliament. His Noble Friend said,
do riot act judicially, we do not decide, we are
ancillary to Parliament. All we do is to examine
-ue ease, and report upon it to Parliament." Why, this
true, but supposing he (Lord Brougham) repre-
lettted a railway company, and supposing he proceeded
1 3 Parliament, would not the first thing that he would
lear be, " You are throwing away your time,
.°4ll hare been reported against. What chance
he"N you of passing your Bill ?" Did any man
!"`ht a farthing's worth of stock in his life, nor was
-ee
IlPpose that the reports were to be waste paper. Why,
rnen , they would be followed by both Houses of Parlia-
t• Government were pledged to the reports, be-
Ilse a portion of them had sanctioned them. True it
as that that portion of the Board were not in the
CCabinet, but, until the late extraordinary retirement of
14ight Hon. Friend of his, one at least had been in the
went, et' No, these reports would
~be taken by Parlia-
They were not living in utopia, where Par-
Ment L
was independent of the Government or the
thevernment of Parliament.—(Laughter.) It was said
arla,,t where the Executive had pronounced an opinion,
goy
reported that opinion to Parliament, they were
t}(l)e‘ 00und by that opinion in their House. 'This was not
Geesert of world they lived in. But now it was not a
v'erritnent! Well, if it was not a, Government, it was
league important member of one—a very important col-
yeas'e of one. He should like to have a return, next
bieshowing how many reports of this Board of five
Teat ers, acting under the President of the Board of
sad had not been sanctioned by Parliament,
that "Tv many had. His own conviction was—
the ,tee result would be just the same as
Dine report of the Board of Trade in ninety-
heed,,,eases out of a hundred— perhaps in a
iteral`' cases out of a hundred—there would be found a
'Pri,„is "incidence between the decisions of the Board of
rye reported now to Parliament, and the decisions
treet,cled in the Statute Book. He said this with very
confidence, not merely from past experience—not
seebe,Yeilidging from the probabilities and improbabilities
Lad 1, 11.°Da the speech of the Noble Lord himself. He
tribe lard,'S not only to the first part of that speech, but
part—and the whole of the last part, and it
jest Et demonstration of the truth of the assertion he had
aktieli,)de. The utmost possible precautions were taken,
10e.,..Vs Noble Friend—and most justly and properly,
Ivber Prevent the least whisper from getting abroad,
eleeis'Y the result attending the inquiry—the probable
Pape,..l" of that inquiry—might be conjectured; first, the
,_'eren'" were not entrusted with the executive, and there-
key especial lock was provided, as well as a special
flitht-dseclire these papers. The genius of the Bramah
there -,a3.—(Laughter)—was put into requisition, that
e "ght be a new inimitable key for an unopenable
ap,;;l(lteuewed laughter.) 'This box was sent by a
'tlaarte,„naessenger, at a particular part of the day—at a
Ass Past four—just when the Stock Exchange
only 'nut, to the Gazette office. He was the
(4141(1P:1.3°a entrusted with it, and no one human being
14 the Boer form a conjecture what would be the opinion
ill thig-eard• But then why all this secrecy, and why
the " multipliedprecaution to prevent the publicity of
to
east.
era? whisper getting out of the decision of the
lutec If the decision of the Board was of no conse-
to b, et and was not to effect the final result,—if it was
Perpeeeesidered only as the opinion of five men for the
irnete'i's,o,f saving Parliament.the trouble of entering so
„„.7 into the°
ancillar tion if the Board did that only,
ques .
y ly to Parliament, and not to guide
he would ask,n'l- did they not publish their pro-
of things at Charing. cross.—(Hear, hear.) The reason
tietsecrecy was this, tat the decision of the Board
naTlitY operated on' Parliament, but finally decided
beretshould as and what not. Now
Bills
..feroeutZeld r.toh-ree schemes of railways in contemplation
ard, and the question was which of the threed
0101
i; successful in the opinion of the Board, an
PK) , the two should he condemned. The part•.„
Friendßoard, at first said that the Board ('
,d not exa-
iteess'Nerlee; they had no power to 'examine or call
they es, and the • informed themse' re- in the best way
b could. he • -
4tY the par„ e -oar- c xammeect the evidence produced
e.'te ilea„ues without callireg witnesses. The reports of
twha: the Gazer
awzere publishe:A in the Gazotte. Now, what
publictlq le? It the officialprint that gave to
the the co- ' s
idemnation of two of the three schemes,
approv 1^ 64n3St t of the remaining one. They reported
etes vvo
s, eque, din favour of one ; and what was the
first ? The decision was whispered upon the
'teha
re Projee 'lgo, and those who had shares in the two
Zeeitet
to ts sold out at a loss, while the last rose in the
alle°W
what-incalculable extent. Now, it WAS well to
way they could best regulate this im-
lfire4R:e Power for the safety of the public, so as not to
be ea the
elis-tieua,
yisiony
property of individuals. If, fer instance,
res, iellreany had done, invest 5,000/. in railway kaoula,
naturalad any connexion who had done so, he
enough, feel greatly interested m 04(1.6 what grounds the Board of Trade had so
Irelved -0,,,ey were all aware of the immense capital
Sink that et railway schemes ; yet here was a
.41,_c the by a single word depress or altogether
te".ss: depre"'se, flourishing schemes, and raise the
Let depress and il• Could ruin some and elevate others
4h_ them,
not
all this by a single report in the Ga zeite.
thnid he injustice
this
laway with the impression that there
that there
neshtice this, but yet where it was possible
th.eurcl with a‘Tel be injustice, it became their duty to
14itight each ous eye the interests of the public. Ile
lebritaters ere Board should consist of some sworn
tiat Would be e Crown, or of some responsible persons
k, 3 they
ca_ accountable to the country for the deci-
abeelred suen_to, and for the justice of decisions which
et4lbshoaisi
n'oteit.:ol:mous amounts of property. Then
Was 113' or Sell e a position to go, if they so chose,
,ett.falitairvoieut.,,uirtailostiono,enr.etrhoereS,tock Exchange. He decidedly
that that Board should consist
ha did
gt
hue
Parliamentra kand station—high
the
country. i n
T h politicaley
`th blottre i'Lace Men too high or too respectable at
e , and be
Qrawnost eligible
wosvoolduldbereptehaet
shwisoovnwnadcvoinsevricstioott thatthe
hard his h
tio„ , hie words ear.) But he (Lord Brougham) must
ti(ite_neie„
!In's to prevent an unfavourable construe-
ceeitiltoo7l asr "aeeu, !Pon thena,s arguments must be
het llot be morePP.) upon
generally, for he felt that there
kat!
thpe
peetrasolnesinsidtitvinidguaalss
members of
some—and
eteee, - re ee. b
414P-:11-erl he PI new Pasle well, the
i;"gttcribed -I;`4 not k
tord,:lbjecthislszwhichbiloodbiNle
ebut he tookuothweiornidha.racters as
just refer
rieanlldu.ded to by the Noble
Wts e was said a
eth_ro_rieeet..„ that one gentleman named O'Brien
IN; Arr. 0;`,4 vylth /3
a Railway Company, and that an-
forrelsaid thatl'en was a member of that Board, and it
earl on
.first h
a•fteitle.isio;t 11?USIE—.The speculated upon certain in-
by
_ Arec the intended decisions of the Board.
ioma
Board
du twaetivoenßas this, that
•WE acloeasuj.°;sies
tbhraotthiterc.oulTdobteliadtohnee.
feet Menabergslyten,
revealedgav by one
4n3urd t"" in addition he h 1 gave
el--
a, to observe, that it
at had no reason to doubt that
441ertewdas thcease; He understood that it had been
Itk‘ord Br or e•bout the time a
(Lord
rea, 'Brien had been purchaser of stock
Ithsti
no ugharn)
wit._
in 2 butn that was denied, anti
4.ehtttia,
shatubt it Wa4s
all cfroi sipierir quite satisfied.
ir.„41.::
By
to ut
rot
rot
n:S litaLsdtrivo iaCtnihot
en
matter.
g could
m gahnt exist al la
gparoi
npsetr ,
tahnadt
1m
el 1-'141:113tall- Goy f)nen°,gut attraageet result from the
ttthe attention of her
ten urea honour et, personsa coenr.stitinttwinogutldhenßoot
adrdo
tnett of hY' oh, the
amount
tldofnot di
veet TthelleaYna.ao.un divulg© their in-
of at tile itn of their deliberationcsrion used to pre-
"e result -•
mv_a_
ofaan,o ia,,a_t_ure, and proved this,inigf igtipvreonvetoci the
taost „.,.• that the i P,F°Per time,
ttlire-mPerteestil°rtllatiOn sought to be secured was of a
capable of being made a
144111:41412 Magnitude to the public, It

was, therefore, absolutely necessary that confidence
ishoitPd ha Observed to Frevent malversation, and that
ti-e ino t entire confidence should be placed in the
Members of that Board, in order to preret fraud
and sreculation among the peblie ire liad thought
it his duty to make these fc•IV r_Lervations on a matter
which had excited tU public interest iii no ordinary
degree.
The Marquis of I, \ NSDOWNE, who was Ileal'd at
first v, ry indistinctly, was understood, to say that the
decisions of the Board of Trade Were never considered
final in the House of Corntnons. He thought the Board
was of incalculable. advantage, as preventing persons
from embarking in schemes which were never likely to
be sanctioned by the Imperial Parliament ; and for that
reason alone he should be inclined to support it. It
would, he hoped, be shown that, however individuals
were prejudiced in favour of their own plans and
schemes, they would still be open to reason, and the de-
cisions of the Board of Trade would therefore be emi-
nently useful in destroy ing all such fallacious schemes
in the bud, and preventing a great waste of capital that
might be more usefully employed.
Lord STANLEY said that as his experience in the
other House was of a more recent date than that of the
Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham), perhaps he
might be allowed to correct a misapprehension into
which the Noble Lord had fallen ; because if allowed to
go uncontradicted, it might create an impression exceed-
ingly unjust to the character of the Government, and
the House itself. The Noble and Learned Lord had
stated that he should move for a return of all the rail-
ways that had passed the House of Commons, and for
the reports of the Board of Trade connected with them,
Ind he ventured to affirm that, in ninety-nine cases out
ar every hundred, the decision of the House had followed
us a matter of course the opinions of the Board of Trade.
It was extremely likely that the opinions of the Legis-
lature would be in accordance with that of the Board of
Trade. But he could assure the Noble and Learned
Lord that, in no one instance, had the Government upon
railway matters sought to influence the votes of the
Members of the lower House. The Noble and Learned
Lord would ever find, in the majority of cases, that even
the members of the Government had refrained alto-
gether From voting on such occasions, or, when they did
Vice, they were found opposing each other. The Noble
and Learned Lord would certainly assign the claims of
private property as a just reason why Members should
have an opinion of their own on such subjects, without
being biassed by the expressed opinions of the Board of
Trade or of the Government. The Board of Trade
examined the schemes before them, as stated in the most
favourable light by their several supporters, without the
perplexing examinations and cross-examinations of
counsel; and, therefore, any decision they might come
to, might be very fairly taken as an evidence of the effi•
ciency of that Board, and the justness of their conclu-
sions ; and, certainly, if it were so, it must be
conceded that it was of great public advantage.
He did not intend to asiert to their Lordships
that the Board never exercised any inflnence
upon the house of Commons. All he meant to say
was that the decisions of that Board were not looked
upon as final by that House ; but surely Noble Lords
would be of opinion that the Howse would but stul-

tify itself, if it gave no heed to decisions come to after
minute labours and patient investigation. The Noble
Marquis had justly observed that the decisions of
the Beard were eminently calculated to prevent unne-
cessary expenditure on the part of those who supported
these projects. His Noble Friend near him (Lord
Dalhousie) had already stated the grounds on which
their decisions were founded. It was very true indeed
that if these decisions, through some inadvertence,
were, if he might use the phrase, to ooze, they
might give rise to fraud and speculation. His
Noble and Learned Friend had spoken of the hardship
to which parties were subjected by a rejection of their
schemes by the Board of Trade; but his Noble and
Learned Friend might not be aware that by a recent
order of the other House an alteration had been made in
the period at which parties might present their petitions,
and, consequently, bring in their Bills. By this alteration
parties would have the full benefit of time to consider how
to make their case more perfect, and to those who might
be induced to withdraw in consequence of the opinion
expressed by the Committee of the Board of Trade, it
would be the means of saving a vast expense both in that
and in the lower House. Really useful schemes would
be enabled, in consequence, to come before the House
without any of that expensive and unprofitable litigation
to which they hod formerly been subjected, while other
parties who were unsuccessful in obtaining a decision in
their favour, might wisely withdraw without burdening
themselves with further unnecessary expenses.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not know that
the constitution of the Board compelled them to withhold
their reasons for their decisions. It must be quite ob-
vious that they could not have come to their decisions
without some reasons, and it would have been quite as
easy for them to communicate their reasons as it was to
communicate their decisions to the public, and both
might have appeared at the same time. No doubt that
what his Noble Friend had just stated was quite true with
respect to that which had been recently adopted in the
other House of Parliament ; but it had taken place, he
believed, since the discussion which had occurred last
year on the constitution of the Board. No doubt the
effect of the existing management would be to prevent
a large portion of the capital of the country from being
wasted upon useless and hopeless speculation.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said, that as far as the
Board were concerned, it was quite as easy for them to
have submitted their reasons in detail at the time they
published their decision, as at a future period ; but inas-
much as the existence f the Board depended on a reso-
lution of Parliament which called upon them to make
the report of their reasons to Parliament, they believed
that the course which they had adopted was the pro-
per one.

The subject then dropped, and the House immediately
adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 13.

NOTICE OF MOTION-STATE'OF THE NAVY.

Sir CHARLES NAPIER (in continuation):said—
One mode by which the true character of this ship might
have been ascertained was by bringing her and the Queen
into a hostile position with respect to each other. In
fact, to get them engaged. He did not mean that they
should fire shot at each other, but that they should fire
as if they were in action, and then it would be seen
which ship fired the fastest, and which kept up her firing
the best. There was another objection to the Albion,

if the report be true which had been made respecting
her. The Rodney, which was a two-decker, carrying
92 guns, carried her lower deck seven feet six inches
out of the water when at sea, and fully stored, whir
.d th;
Albion, with only three months' provisions on‘ooard, and
with only a usual rate of stores, was n•
.il3, —ay. six feet nine
and a half inches out of the sva:.,r,
if the level of the
lower deck was to he taken •
es the guage. There were
two ways by which level was to be ascertained, for
it would be recoy.,
ecteu tnat tne range of the outer port
was three '7...cries more than that of the same propor-
tionate
(wallet within. He alluded to the deck floor-
i°7",,. The way in which a guage of the height of a ship
out of the water was to be taken was by taking a batton
and laying it on a level with the port, and to measure
the distance between that and another batton laid
along the level of the water. By this measurement it
was ascertained that the height of the Albion could not
be so high as six feet six inches, But, when sailing,
the Albion could not be so high as six feet six inches,
for he found by the builder's report that this was the
measurement which gave her height before she received
her guns. She had, therefore, at that time, 120 guns to
take in ; and he would leave the House to judge whether
the addition of this weight would not decrease the heightof
her lower deck ports out of the water when she got to sea.
lie now came to the consideration of sailing ships in
general. It appeared by the list which had been fur-
nished to him by the Admiralty, and which was now on
the table of the House, that, since 1830, five 120-
gun ships had been built, costing more than 3,000,0001
The Queen cost 83,000/, the Trafalgar 87,000/, the
Royal William 76,0001., the Waterloo 72,0001., and the
St. George 79,000/. From this it would be seen that,
in proportion, the Queen was more expensive than any
of them. The Rodney, of 2,626 tons, cost 67,550/. ;
the Nile, of the same burden, 70,000/. ; the London, of
2,602 tons, 71,0001.; and the Albion, of ninety guns, and
a tonnage of 3,110 tons, 89,341/. When entirely fitted
up, the cost of the Albion would be immense. After
marking the cost of the Vanguard, the Thunderer, and
other vessels, the Gallant Commodore went on to say
that, since 1830, there had been constructed six three-
deckers of 120 guns, five of 110 guns, four of 90, three
of 84, four of 80, two of 70, three of 30, five of 56,
four of 44, six of 26, together with seventeen 16-gun
brigs. The whole cost of these, and other vessels,
amounted to 1,668,460/. He had one other observation
to make with respect to the Albion, which was, that
when she came into port, having been only a year out,
and but a short time at sea, her waterways and diminish-
ing plank were so open, that wood was obliged to be
driven in between her seams before she was coppered,
to such an extent that one hundred shipwrights and
apprentices were at work on her in Plymouth Dock-
yard for seven days, which was equivalent to seven
hundred men. Ho now came to a most impor-
tant question of naval construction, that of steam-boats.
Up to 1831 they had only a few steamers of low tonnages
but in that year steam began to make a great progress,
and the Government found it absolutely necessary to do
something. At the time the Lord High Admiral was in
office, he (Sir C. Napier) took it on himself to write
him a letter on the subject, from which, if the House
would permit him, he would quote. He said, as it was
uncertain whether the various experiments then trying
would succeed, ho should recommend a vessel 10 feet
wide, 150 long, and 18 deep. She ought not to be so
fine as a man-of-war, nor to carry so much fuel. She
should consume 22 tons of coals a day. The engines
and the boilers should be secured against shocks. He
recommended that the wheel should not be so broad as
usual ; and though in that case the vessel would not go
fast in the river Thames, it would, in rough weather, be
under complete command. Now he (Sir C. Napier) had
seen the Admiralty go on building, tor the last fifteen or
sixteen years, steamboats without any bottom at all, and
in which the engines and boilers were so exposed as to
be entirely unfit for war. When the Right Hon Baronet
came into office, he had, very much to his credit,
taken up steam. When Sir Thos. Hardy got into the
Admiralty, he naturally concluded that there would be
no difficulty in carrying out his views, but he had been
disappointed, for the same system was continued. The
building of the steam vessels had cost the country
359,585/. ; the fitting-up and machinery nearly the same
amount. He did think that when they proceeded to lay
out such an enormous sum, they should have paid the
greatest possible attention to the construction of the vessels.
All those imperfections of which he complained in the
construction of man-of-war steamers, were attributable
to the surveyors of the navy, for they had 'been built
upon the principle applied to the construction of sailing
vessels, without any consideration of the great difference
that existed between the two classes of vessels. There
was also some blame attachable to the engineers ; but he
principally blamed the 13oard of Admiralty for not con-