The Sun.
London, England, 1810-03-06 00:00:00

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A:3lki:-

UESDA Y, ..MARcu 6, 1810.

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proposed bya the 'Hort.,GentleMan; For censuring the, nity and chareCteia and not agree With the propoSis
, Earl of Chatham. - don which the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated
The Hon. Gentleman observed, it would be un- Would be moved-this night, viz. (be preidous que.se
necessary for hidi to offer any more arguments •to ; *lithe House abstained from the line of cone
the House in the present stage of the debate. .It dud which the resolutions .of 'his Hon. Friend
would be it the recollection of Gentlemen, that the chalked out, it could net support itsiovvidharaSter.
Right Hon. gentleman opposite (Mr.-Perceval) had What had been the conduct of Lord Chatham ? As
signified his intention of-moving the previiaus ques- li 'the Reuse had been informed,' he-drew up aspriper,
tion. If that should be done this evening, he then which, taking advantage of his situation of conff-
would trespass on -the Honse • dente as a Privy Councillor, he eecretly corive-y`ed to
ThS SPEAKER having stated the order of proceed- the King, without the knowledge of his cielleeguee-
log, and put the question, in office'. • That, being the Commander in Chief
General CRAUFURD rose to oppose the Resolu- of an Expedition; upon eatich It was necessary
tci
tions of the Hon. Gentleman. He should premise institute., inquiry with respect to the failure Of, jt,
what he had to say 'by. a declaration on, his part, that l he in that paper, so secretly conveyed, made a tea=
in considering the-present question he- should 'dise 1 yy charge against an Officer joined with' him in come
charge all vies of pertye—party virnlence, and patty
.mend. That in so conveying the peper, he had
prejudice, would not bias his vote.• No person could adteelenot only contrary •to all precedent arid prace
I say, that in 'any one instance of his Parliamentary Lice, but had desired it should be.kept eecret. If the
con Ina he bad acted from those motiveseee(ffear ! House, -the legitimate,constitutionalguardian,-could
i
.hear ! from . the' Opposition.)—Gentlemen . might pass over-such conduct without notice, t would not
' cheer,- • bat lie must egain repeat, that in no one ift- only be admitting that it *a; justifiable, butt would
stance could personal animosity, nor personal en- - also admit that any servant of the.Cl own might ,
reity, be charged to his account. With respear proach the Royal ear with any statement he migl,t‘
then, to the paper of the Noble Earl who was the -choose to draW up, in order to prejudice the Royal.. subject of the resolutions,, he •wes ready to,adMit t inind,.andsanetion such servant in desiriee that hitt
that the delivery Of it, to the. King was highly izajue conduct might be kepta secret from his Majesty's
• dicious; but what was the gutted-work oi the • otheeconfaclential servants.- The Honourable Gene
charge against the Noble Earl ? Why, that,lie had tlemart meant those who, in the language `of .the
made upa -statement; which he had delivered to his Constinvien, were, 'fOrmerly Considered' contiden.
Majesty on the ieth January,
.andehat he had so tial. ---/ThiS, was not \all, for the House would
done without communicating with his CPlleagnes in thereby;give'authority to Ministers, to call for-any
• office. Taking the faSi to be so, it would' then be- ) paper of this. kind, in order to erase such parts' ofett
'Conic necessary to inquire what . were the .motives as might be hostile to them. ' If, under those cite :which induced the. Noble Earl to seek Abe presence curnstances, such
,proceedings'. were tolerated, and
of. the King ? 'The Hon. Geoeral was perfealy the House should attempt to. complain, what would
persuaded, if the House would calmly examine iota be the answer of Ministers ? Why this-se-cc We have
these motives, they would be satisfied, that though only done that which the House of Commons in
his conchs& was erroneous,-.still there was nothing i the year 1810 declared perfeOly
of criminality- in it; What was the paper ? A plain, j :had been said by 'the- Honourable General, that
simple statement, drawn} up for the day of.trial, ep- ts•Lprd Chatbam did not consider the paper.an
plying purely to his conduct in the command of the' # docutnenOill: the 14th February ; but what eras til;,
'Expedition. Whether in approaching the. Royal ear. evidence on that head ? What did the paper itself
he hatl at.ted right, or whether he. hed. acted wrong, i purport to be ?—the Report of the CoMmander
was another question. If Gentlemen Would look at r'Chief. The very signature to it pf "
Chatham
the combat) of the Noble Earl dispassionately, they .Lieut.-General;" was conclusive on, its
bein
would agree with the Hon. General in opinion, that g firs
presented-to-the King, that it was an official docu- •
he Must be exculpated from the charge of clandes-. ,ment. (Hear, hear.) If he, had delivered it iii hit
tinely attempting or writing -to prejudice the King's charaaer of a Peer, would 'it have been eo signed ?.
mind Against ,apy persoe whatever. With resped flf the dosstrine now advanced;of considering this
to his having delivered the paper to •the, King,' paper; until the 14th February es a private one was
so far as that went; he was certainly culpan'e,- but to, be endured; it world tend to take from Minieters
then it was only a veeial error, and conseclueoily,did t that respopsibility which they were lieble to .for any
not call fur that severe- punishment which the,resoe advice thermay give to. the Kings Eery Mihister
lutions of the Hon. Gentlemen went to luflia. i is compelled bylaw to sign his name to any adviCe
Much had been said upon the evidence of the No he may give the sovereign, and if it was now for
ble Eel with respect to the time of delivering the the first lime allowed that a Peer should shelter
speeer.' Tate Noble Earl in his answer had merely thinselt; though a Cabinet Minister, midst his Fri;
stated that he did . not coneider it a public document i vate Character, the House would never obtain sarise
until
.it had been sent in an officid form. His , fadion for any breach-of the Constitution: With
His reason for 'requesting that it might be kept se- resped to its being in.ade'offiCial on the 14th of Fe-
cret in the first instance was, because he did not bruary, for the first time, possiblyehis Majesty
wish his defence should be made public until he might have wisely reflected upon the practice of the .-
was properly cal-led upon on the day 'of trial. The Constitution, and refused to receive the paper until
paper was made are official docubrent on the 14th of it had been made official, and'therefore had directed.
February, as the Noble Earl had stated, and when it to come through the proper channel, the Secretary
-he was questioned therefore on that head, elle Noe of S:ate. During the last Session, when a Noble
ble -Earl very Thaturally adeertad to it as it then Lord felt his conduct had been unguarded 'on
'stood, fire eii that day it became' an official paper, the subject of- a stetin Parliament,. he stood' up,
,and the answer of the Noble kart could be no oilier and confessed his • guilt, and the. House attended '
in this place, consideriug- his o ith -as a Privy Cairn-- to that confession ; but here there was no apology
cillor ; when it was considered, therefore, that, in , offered, and the House must divide upon: the•case
the first place, his erbjea, was to prepares statement as it appeared, taking into consideration that it was
for the day of trial, which was transmitted to his, s leded by the Address to preserve its dignity and '
Majesty, and subsequently is made an official docu- c pharagcter. •
ment, he hoped; when
m the, motives , were consie -Me. STEPHEN considered the. qnestion wee- not
deited,ethe error, for so it ust be admitted, would whether te House of Cotten-ions should' agree that ,
be greatly extenuated ; and instead of meeting it the Earl of Chathamai,ad acted wrong, but whetliet
ith:severe ceusure, the House would be disposed he had not been guilty of a yiolationeof the, Censfie _
to consider it in the light he bad stated. With re- tution. Such was the effect of the Hon. Genileman's
spea to what had -fillet) from the HQD. Gentleman, resolution, and the House must; in the event of
.vie. that the Noble Earl had, under the sareetiOn of their opinion being for the latter, propolitiOn, pasts
• his being a Privy Councillor, insidiously calum- ; a severe sentence upon the 'Noble Earl; for severe ,
Mated a gallant Officer ; he (the Hon. General) it would be When the House came to recollect that
:must say, that if the House would examine the pending the Inquiry the Noble Earl, a Privy *Coups
transettion; they Would. see that no
,such impute- cillor, a Cebinet Minister, and 'Commander in
tion.could attach. The Noble Earl, frem the aloe • Chief of the Expedition, was on his trial. It Wes
relent of his arrival in this country, 'was:satisfied that utterly impossible; if the •resolutions Were paesede
inquiry must lake place, and he had determined in that the mattercould end with them. • The Leerned
his own mind that it shpuiel be either by a Civil Gentleman declared that he had heard no argranent
Inquiry, or by the other mode of, trial known to to convince his mind' that the Noble Earl was the
11.:ilitary Commanders, a Court-Martial,intending ' object Of censure, nor to -induce the House it prb.
to produce this paper or report on the day he .drew teed to• those measures which would 'terminate the
it up, hut not, asshad been charged on the other public life of the Noble Earl.. -.Being o this
side, with a clandestine view ; that was an pbjed nion, he must
,examine the nature, of the charge;
very foreign to his mind. Such horrible,- base, stud and the premises upon which the'lion;Getttlemati
.execrable views the Noble Earl never, could enter- inferred that his Resolutions ought to be 'adopted-.
lain. Besides, if he had been so inclined, would With respect to the paper, upon which so Much.
he have gone about it in so stupid and clumsy} a had been said, he did hot fired in the charge ally
Way ?. Would be not rather have taken that title. thing stated by which'heecoirld gather an 'opinion
Which. might have secured hire from obloquy ? that the Noble Earl ha'd made any false represent:le
11Iight be not, by saute verbal cernmunication, tion to 'the King,' nor had indeed Said any thing,- cia
whieh as a Privy Councillor he was entitled to, . ther express or implied, against •the naval 'Cowman-.
have endeavoured to prejudice the mind of his Ma- l der Of the Expedition, to poispn the RoYal ear, hut, -'
jesty ? If 'he had been. butt a degre:e above a drivel- e he did find that the Noble'Earl had been • guilty :of
her, such would have- been his cosduct. .:lie Hon..: the high offence of having, as a Privy Councillor,.
General trusted, that under the circuinstances of conveyed the :paper in questioa to Sveleit.e
,the case, Gentlemen opposite would, in that-,spirit . Was there any thing hi' that conductthe thetocould be
ecif candour which governed their proceedings, see deemed subversive of the principles of the Britieft
the condud of 'the Noble Earl in its true light, and Constitution, for welt he must take the offence to
•impute it to error, and that of the most veniol sort. s be, before the -/-lOns Gentletnan's iesolundes 'could
Mr.. C. WYNNE declared, that he should feel 'be adopted ? If the paper was intendtAi to pre=
greater pleaesre if on die preeent occasion' he could .
,jiadice the King's mind, then the Hon. Gentleeran
have given•a silent vote ; but. the-extensive import- , should' have, su statecle it, and then • an- unenswer-
ance of the case called far him to state time grounds able argument would have, been furnished to hi:n,
upon which he should vote for the resolutions of his(Mr. See.,_ It was- not correct to state a piPpositiott.
Hon.-Friend. The 'Hon. General opposite had 'en- in one way and argue it in another. -He was jet to
deaCoured to impress the House with an idea that learn how the Noble conducterrs conduct cold be charg
the condu of Lord Chatham had, been merely erro- as a violation of the ConStiiutioli, and u
in arguing on ed
neoiise", The, Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex- ; the contrary, he trusted he might be allowed to look.
chequer had not attedtpied to defend- it. \Vhen, , to the principles• of, his own, profession to make it
therefore, Ministers commsidere,d it -necessary for , the i out.. Where vies the illegality of the. Earl's
sindicaott of their own charatters, to matte a decla- conduct ? :• Where could Gentlemen tied lieu
ration of dist kind, was it not, also necessary that the forfora PriVy 'Councillor to approach the Royal
House of Cut:unions should vindicate its own dig- presence, was 'contrary to the principles of the

ConStitutien.--(Loud cries of hkar ! heap*!.
fo 0, the Opposition.) Tha Learned' gentle-
man supposed, from the acclamation tie .had lust
heard, he should have "some, rule laid down to con-
ino that he mistinderstood- his profession; he
would, however, repeat the queAion, and ask Where
the.' '• ‘vas to be found, because to practise it was
that he looked for Constitutional rules. In prece-
• dent he knew there were none. He was not defend-
. In the Noble Eld against error; he had admitted_
that he had- erred,--nay,' he would go farther, and
say, that he would have -acted more _candid if, in
his evidence at.the.Bar, had.declared what had
passed on the interview ; but although he abstained
from so doing, was there any thing dangerous in
- what he had done ?—Why, there were many things
dangerous to the Constitution. For instance, luxury _
was dangerous to the -Constitution. If 'a person gave
an extravagant -dinner), that was dargcrQua to the
constitution
.and purse. also.: • Party spirit and fac-
tions combinations weld dangerous. (Loud cries Qf,
Rear ! hear! front the Opposition)—l find, said the,
Learned Gentlemun, I 'have touched a stting,,Which
vibrates keenly ;, but those things are highly danger-
;cons and impreper. It has been said that'tbe
enceof:the Crown is dangerons to the Constitution.
Is there any thing snore dangerous than party spirit
,But Gentlemen will not say, because it has an an evil
tendency, that therefore it is uncoustitulionaL.—
The Hon.
,and Learned4Gentleman obseryed, that
supposing, under these circumstances, the question
should be put upon 'the resolutions, and they should
,he paSsed, _then another rin.e-Stion of material iniport-
ance remained behind, and that this was theproper
time when the resolutions should .be brought
tpr-
ward. He must say, that having been brought for-
ward at this period 91 the Inquiry, the-Noble Earl
bad been very hardly dealt with, and had much to'
complain of both here and with the Public at large.
He -had been' the victim of popular clamour to an
extent beyond any thing. Se powerful was cla-
Moor when exerted that it knew no bounds ;'it per-
vaded rile whole kingdoM. It. certainly was very
natural that in,the event of the failure, at an Expe-
dition of such magnitude,. the Public should con.
Ciive that-blame was imputable soinewhece, .and, as
it was not very natural to. tax the naval 'service with
failure, why-the land service was the object . He
• could lay his haud•upon 'heart and say" that be'
had done infustite to. the Noble Earl. (A laagh.)—
Gentlem,en opposite might treat his „assertion witt
ridic'ule, but the feet was so, for he: bad been the
tool of clamour, from a suggestion which fell
.flom his. 'Right tioh. Friend (Mr. Pereeval), he
•thad read the evidence; that evidence he Was-justi-
in'saying, did not bear out the .advocates for
clamour against the Noble Earl. He was a stranger
to the NOble Earl, and 'in examining the evidence,

was actuated only by a desire to ch; .justice to the
charader of a Britigi Commander of-an Expedllion. 1•
'He was convinced„that in that examination'it was
Utterly impossible 'to find that want of energy was
'imputable to. the Noble Earl ;' that any insinuation
of . the kind could be drawn frart the testimony of
elle. witnesses., Su :far, therefore, the Noble Earl
was entitled to a presumption. in his favoni, that
he had acted with .the. greate,st energy. fie did
most firmly believe, that instead of des,,:rviog cell
-
Sure, and being charged with prejudicing the Royal
ear against his coidjutor.in the Expedition, charges'
which hdi.i been whkly circulated in the public prints
thronliout the kingdom, the Noble Earl' was nn,.-
deserving of that public oblecioy 'and reproach which
hid 'been so liberally cast upon him. He had done
for the service all that could be done, and he bad.
'the Merit of not attempting while in the command,.
ro do that which he was empowered to.attempt by
his instruetioris. My... Lord Wellington had not id'
his opinion.acComplOted more than -what the Noble
Earl has dene; and in C'easing'sti,,attempt accom-
plisliing what could_ not be-effe&ed, he had shewn.
himself a meritorious. Officer.'.. With respO'A to the'
manner in which the prosecutor had conduaed the
• case against the N-ble Earl, he certainly had ab--
. 4tained from saying any thing favourable' to the
• party accused. On the contrary he hail put it in.
the strongesi odious light. The Hon. anti Learned
Gentleman should •hav:e conceited; that the Noble
Lord had some hereditary claims to the attention of
the House. 'He had laid before them'a p tper which
:comprised -his defence, and' then:cattle thrward as a •
.witness at t.l e Bar in a case .which would exculpate
excuse his own cooduCA: every opportunity was
• taken by the 'prosecutor to examine him minutely,,
-to that paper as well as every other. It., had been
inferred, that some bold.insinuatiot s'had. been con-
• tamed in the paper---that some strcing hml -
been subsequently withdrawn, after it. was obi,ained
fromhis.Majesty. - This; however, failed ; and then.
. the HOn. Getttlemap took the only course which he
could-take to stop the Inquiry, and brought forward
- his resolu- ions. It was 3 sort of 0. P.ProCeeding,
deavouringby clamours to obtain want they could net
-dObyt evidence. Gentlemen had been very agent for
preceeding with the 'lnquiry ; they could. not spare
a. day from it ; they grudged every hour in which
the House sat that was not consumed in the Inquiry;
wilen the.case. was closed on their parts, and
the' Noble .Earl ,was reedy to enter on his defence;
they came with ;;ort.'of episode to the catastrophe;
and, by a' couple of Sweeping resolutions, endeavour-
_ ed to get rid of. the charge altogether,, distindly
ar(i%ving that their o},a was to get rid of -the pre- -
,rot lli%risters. Finding they could riot- etled that
object then, they hope, by. .these prematnre reso,-
Ititiens to get rid at leaA, of one of the Ministers. It 1
.was therehare consistent with thy particular views of
Gentlemen opposite that they should trytheir hands-
' at an ouster: He believed that such proceedings
ware 'never heard of many Court before; He would
allk his Learned.Feiends opposite, whether
be endnred in a Court of Justice, ti:t when a de-
fendant was preparing to otter a' defence to- the
charges against hire, the prosecutor should turn him
round aild s:Iy; No, ),ou shan't do so ; you shall
not libel us."
,Such condud,,if perMitted ano- •
- the*. Cdurt, would be gross and palpable .injustice.
in the present instance such was the/course of pre-
- • ceediug ; the conclusion, to which the House uuder
these circumstances ,Must come, would 1)4 to vote
the previous question. If the House did net come
to that,canclusion, then he must eake the ad of the.
Noble Earl to be. so piconstitutioirst—that there was
something so dangerous in it, that it as irbpossible
to pass it' over. Yet Mahe same time it was not de-
' ri.edthat he might approach the royal ear, and cow-
Municate any thing. The breach of the. Constitu-
cousisted io oenuni:tiog his opinions tp

. .
It was -impossible the, Houle get.at any bad •jeste advice elke propriety of he half nee sub-
etivit!:e verbally given, unless they could call-the ,So- milted to.hise colleagues, aedeven requested his. Nfa-
veteign before them es an evidence. The.- Hon.- testy: to keep that advice from the kneveledge of
.and Learned Gentleman considered, that hi bring- • ; those who ought to be considered his cuntitieetialS
leg the charge against the Noble Earl he had been and responsible servants. .Tholtfe of the illustrious
treated harshly. The House would not,' he hoped, person from whom the Noble Lora sprung, had..
forget that he was the son of the first_William Pitt, been spent in fighting the battles of his country,
and the brother of the second William Pitt.— L and in contending . against that secret influence
He hoped that the Cafoseand the Brutuses on the which', lurking behind the Throne,- hahadetraracter-
other side of. the Hopse'weuld not forget' his re- red Asgre;a:er.thap the Throne itself,--Having long.
lationship. 'When he saw the Noble Earl under ex- ,1 Strieggled against this hidden power, he httd resigned
=illation at the Bar, he fancied he heard the tones his official situation, b:cause, as he himself expres-
ofehose prodigies of 'genius; °lice the boast of this sed it; " he.could np logger Ineresponsible for urea=-1
country—that he heard the tongues of those Muss !. sures- over which he.-had no controul."—lt was on
trious men, (MCC the ornament of the Senate, (new, this grotind so distinctly stated by teat great man,
alas, mouldering in'yonder graves'). again rieett ing that .he -(Mr. ,B.)- stigmatized the conduct which
the attention of an admiring audience. (Hear, hew., took away from the men who araght to be respon.
from the Alinisterica side.)---It was not :or the ho- stole their control over .the .measures of the -Sevee
netts of king that the brother of the late thus, : reign, If it were to he tolerated that .eech Minister
Arious Prime Minister ,should be thus treated. He ahouldoffer'tiethe Soeereign his Individual and see
invoked the support of his Fr; ads, he begged the • cset advice, the must serious evils might ensue:.
aid of their eloquence to tell the House that the son Supposes an expedlion plaaned, and that one Noble
,of Lord Chatham, the brother of WiflianiPitt, at ; or Right Hou . person, giving. the preference to the
least ought to have justice
.done }times-When employmeet ot. cassalry, offered to his Majesty se,
heard the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) address cret advice to employ that description of force; that
the House, in moving the . resolutions, he was sere : another, proceeding on a difi-erent opinion, secretly
prised and hurt that the' Honourable G, title recominaeded the embarkation of infiintry alone ;
man would, in order to serves a particular purpose, that a, third secretlyeadvised the attack to ire made
hate quoted passages that were tittered by theagreat 'by a coup-de-mehrs a 1 reqatistiug- that their semi-
Lord Chatham, to contrast them welt the condud of „, meets relight be conceited ; chuld any thing he con-
the son. Mr. S. declared he would ant Isave qtioted. ceiked more dangerous ? Could cot:lesion be worse
these passages—be st as a 'father, and he would rather cenfounded . than would be the probable rissult of
have said e-e‘ Let not my conduq be daken.as the such condua ? The Learned Gentleman had term-
rule of guidance for my son. It he has done that ed,this accusation Of Lord-eh:same) ainepisode, for-
which requires, examination, let hirn be tried getting thetahe eet of secretly advising his Majesty
tipop his owe merits; but do rot visit upon him was entirely distinct frotn the Expedition, .atid Was
my particular expressions."--4f 1., said Mr. ere_ 'a whole of itself. -If the Noble Lore's condud in this
phen, had accusations to bring against the sone, I aflitir, proved by his owthadmissions and by his Me-
wyuld not, Sir, run to the receptacle for the ashes' testy'sens wet to the Address, were not pronounced
of dean, and pluck stones from the monument of by the House of Cotenants Ito be unconstitutional,
the father to bruise the heart of the son. (Loud cries there world hewn end at once to the rest onsitiility of
of Hear, hear !) Tee Noble Lord is a soldier-adet Alin'seers ; for how, in fairness, -could Ministers. be
it not be forget that he has an illustrious name'to reehred responsible for 'advice which they had not
support. In drawingd up the paper, lie ha aded • given ? in defence, therefore, of the present, and of
.not with a. view of injuring any petsene bat solely feture Administrations ; in defence even of tee
from a desiie, laudable, indeed, was, of ofteribg Crown itself, whose interests were intimately cone
apt tin stetement of' facts' to public calumny. His ,fleded with the dectsien of the question, 'he called
°Oh-pee was not-so much against, the Constitution as upon the House, to agree- to the liesolutions of his
segainst his colleagues. The Hon. and Learned Gen- Hon. Frichd.
denten. concluded a _very able speech, with declar- t Mr. BANKES deemed the present a question of
log, that as an honest man he could not vote forthe. great Moment., It 'had occurred to -him, even. before
Resolutions. • he entered the/House, that beeought to pause be-
Mr. BROUGHAM -assured the - House that he . fore he gave his opinion, and to coesid& deliberately
would not detain them long, but called upon so:loudly whether: the Noble Lord whose condat was'eona
as the supporters of` the Resolutious were by the deemed-he the resalutions- before the House, had
Learned Gentleman who had just satdown,.to state been guilty of any pradice which justified the term
by what lava or statute the at to.which- those Re- unconstitutional, as applied, to the! condude He
solutions re'erred was. rendered onconsituttional, he had, listened, very 'attentively to the Learned Gen-
would humbly tender, to the House a few observe- tiernart. who had just sat down, and 'who, -he pre-
tions on the subjeEt. •He weuld first, however, al- summed,. had collected all that •could be said iim, shpe
lode toa great deal of extraneeus matter introduced port of the argument which Iv& had mentioned.
by the Learned Gentleman., He
,could assure that ,vhat :did that all ameunt ?- The Learned Gen
Learned Gentleman, that he' was as anxious as tleman was of ()pinion* that theecondu4 of Lord
himself that justice should be done to the son Chatham had been uncoestitutional, 'and thisiopis
of the great Lord Chatham, and the -brother of .; nion he declared that he had deduced from7all the
Nr. Pitt. He heartily assented seemly avota that, kno a n principles of the Constitution. The Learned
hadeseee said in vindication of Lord Chatham's ge- Gentleman had stated it as one of thsete known
need condush s It was true that the Noble L"rd principlee that the Members of 'the Cabinet Coen,
had been basely traduced—it was true, that for , cd_should a& in concert. Now the fact was that the
weeks he had been most shamefully calumniated by c'xifocticc 'of n Cabinet eosins:el was et:known to the
the prese, and particularly by that put of time press Constilution. In old times the Privy Councillors
widish espoused the cause of AhminiStration. The were the Constitutional adVisces of his Majesty, el-
Noble Lord had been- accused of haaing .occasioned though it was true that in Modern times, (awing to
the fdilurgoi the late EapeditiOn. Until the Inquiry fee occurrence originating in .a Cabal, a certajn num-.
into the causes of that failure had made considerable ber of those Privy Councillors were usually formed
progrees, to the negligenee.of his Lordship it had into a body and ealled the Cabinet Council. And
been clamoromisly attributed. These were the calum- here he would remark, 'that when he agreed, area
nies which .ksord Chatham had sustained, and he. recent evening, to the Addresa relative to th 6 pro-
heo:ily agreed with the Learned Gentleman that he' duction of any farther narrative of Lord Chatham's,
had sostained them with, dignity. 'At length the it was not otalte general greendeolconstitutionel
falsehood of such accusations had been made magi- cessity stated by the mover of that AddreSst His
fest:. This was 'not the time, however, for him to.. 1, reasotnfor concurring in the motion of the Address
proceed to slew, that the. faults which had been was, that the House having thodght fit to require
ascribed to Lord Chatharts ought to be laid at the the production of one narrative, andthere appearing
door of others. So far he and We LearnechGentle= a suspicion that a prior narrative %'as sits existence;
man were of the same Tinton. He Would now j he 'could see *no cause; as the second narrative had
say,a 'few Wotdtin ref ly to that part of the Learned' been produced, why the first ought not to be de-
Gentleman's speech in which he could not cuncitr. i mantled. He could by no meana understand on
The Learned Gehtletnan did allow, that that ae,t of what principle of the Constitution the Learned Gen-
Lord Chatham's, against which the Rest-A:ohms # Ileman Wended his doetrine,that.oneof the confiden-
proposed by his Honourable Friend were direded, 1 tial• ads isers -of his Majesty recognised as suchs ought
•Was improper and unbecoming, The difference , not to have access to' his Sovereign to tender any ad-
between, these terms and -the . term unconstitutional vice. that he might think proper. If such an .indivi-
appeare'd to be but Slender ; yet it' was most Ma:. I.dual were to take this step 'without the knowledge
poi tent .that the House should mark their sense par-, :of.hia colleagues, to them it-might be an offence,
tietilarlye of the " unconstitutional" character of the but cert.:linty none to the Constitution. After th.'s
ad. It was not on the' supposition that Lord expeditioe had terminated, and LordChathata's func-
Chathatn had insinuated into his , Royal, Master's i lions as Connuandeehed ceased, hail not' the Noble
6r any false or invidipus statement that the Re- Lord a right, ai a constitutional adviser of his Ma-•
solutions were founded, but ..on the mode itt jesty, and holding the high situation which he did
• which the statement had been made, and the in the Government of, the country, to demand. ail
circumstances which accompanied it. Time House audience of his Sovereign, for time purpose of render-
botti by the Noble Lord's own evidence, and by ing to 'him an accounteif his proceedings ? Would
Majesty's answer to•the Address, were in possession not the Noble:Lord have had *right to do this by
of the fads Naar Lord Chatham asked leave of, his l word of meuthl` Not only had he a tight to de.-so,,but.
Majesty to present to him a Narraeive of the Expea l lie would be culpable had henot done so.• If then
ditto') ;,, that on the 15th of January that Narrative he had' a right to give Majesty advide.and infor-
. was presented, accompanied by a request of. sectesy; 'oration by word of mouth, what vas there in the,
•by a request that hies Majesty would keep it from character of a written, and therefore of a more de-
the knowledge of his' other Ministers; that he would tailed and accurate statement by, which such a tight
allow no human being to see it ; neither those whose was abrogated I—With respeei to-tile motives which
conduct it described, nor those who, as the coefideb- induced the Noble Lord to withdraw his first state-
tial 'advisers bf the Crown, were. responsible for the :meat for the purposesOf returning it in an amended
plan itself; that the Noble :Lord subsequently re- form, the House had not the means of judging. It
claimed his Narrative—thaehe triade material altera- • was probable that they Would hat'e known more on
tions in it—that he suppressed a paragraph of discus- thiS subjeti had it not been 'for the interruption
sion, and that in this state it was again presented by which had occurred in the eiarninatien oftheNoble
him to his Majesty. On these fads the llosolutiOns f Lord ; but even. were those rnotiVes criminal, the
were justly founded. On these filets it was declared scrime was not against time .Coestit Olio's. It might
in those Resoltitiebsc that the conduct of Lord Chae:. be a very heinous mot 4 but no stich. crime'
ham had been highly unconstitutional.' He aerehd i Waacharged in time resf)lutions before...the •H cuser----'
with the Learned Gentleman, that it would be dith- j Nothing could be more dangeions.thau to charge-
'. cultao find any precise at of Parliatnent on which -an individual with a crime, the' nature of which was
this declaration could be supported ; but it appealed not distinctly and decisively deScribed, bat which Was
for its foundation. to-every one of those principles of Jett to be interpreted as circumstances
which the Constitution was made up, and in which i He did not utter this opinion because the Noble Lord
it existed. Was it necessary, in a constitutional j was descended from one of the most illestribus
poiet of view, that the confeleutial athisers of the Statesmen, or because he was time other of tete of
Crewn should consult. one another on their 'proceed- Ithe best friendathat, the country had ever enjoyede—
ing4? ' Was it necessary for the public service that If the individual w hose conduct was -snider, con-
they should do so ? Was it necessary the. Cabinet tederaf.on was one of the meahese .in the.
Council should"'Concur •in their :Measures for the realm, be wool- still contend, that it was •anietoler-
good.Of their country ). Above all, was it neces- able glieVanee to, charge him as the Resolutions
sary that for , every at of theSuvereion, a respon- chargede he liable Lord. eThe Reseltitioes, it agreed
sible edviser should be found ? If °the levee ive . woeld thrt;tvent the Noble Lord's clraractee see-
must be the reply to theseanquikiesa wlea" could be ma mdse injurious-ta him as public main fervereel
said-of the conduct of Lord Chatham, who, him- to, how (mete they to-befolloecdeip l Uuquestiots-
. suit ,a Member of the. Oabtnet, toudeted to his Ma- ate). the kleuse ought to addle:sS his ,'t.L to remove

from a eeae horn
to be an ahteea- of the Roeal onr, :nal
lator of the c:onstitutione The Coostitetion %vac, a
laree baok which eveey man -reatlain lkis,own way.—
In what state ivould the country be if the intereree.
tation ,of its contents were. perm;tted be regulated
by parry feeling ? If such a proetice. were te prevail,
he should indeed tremble bur the,country. t e Could •
• not conceive a Mote dengerpos-situatiOn things
than that the Hnuse of UOrinnons aasurno
the „power' of caPriciotisly_ declarieig that to -13-
laW' which they might chose so,todeelare on an inr
mediate view of the case, and
.witho,it refereoce to
any .other authority. -It Was an incoati-oiertible
prineipleOfithe Conatitution, that 'lien could nottl:'
.
Unconstitutional against whichahe onsti ntion pose
sessedno guard. Ministers were responsible for atal
'aa of the Crown ; bitt for adi ice adied
action they ave,e 'not responsible. The, law did tf4'
allow .that they should. be .responsible. Merely:,
Shereforeeto offrr advice to the Sovereign was not
unconStitutional,...bectiuSe t!'re Constitution did
.not
afford 'any guard, against such a circiamstaoce by reta.
deting the indiVidual whOolfered it responsible. The.
Nohle Lord, as a Peer and a Privy-Councillor, hada
right' to have access to his Maiesty. ft the advic4'
conveyed to his Majesty's ear was acted ;'!'on' it
could only lae so abted upon constitetionally throtigb
the medium of a responsible Minister. There the
check. Then a the proper and constitut iooal respon-
sibility. It affected him by w hom the act was done,not
him by whom the advice 'night have been given. TbP.
former was ostensible ; -thelatter it mi;eht be difficult
to trace. In the course of the peesent discussion,
and of fOrmer discussions on subjects connected
,with 'it, a great e deal had been said- of secret infbl-
ence2 At are early period of his life, on the corn'
tuencernent, indeed,, of his political life, he had also
heard a great deal about secret inillience. At thlt•
period Li had not the means .of knowing whether
the clamour was true ter false. The illustrious States- .
' man, father of the Noble Lord, had'anquestionablf
given tO that clamour the stamp of his great audio-
-rtty, and had rendered. it more current. Froel
Many pet-Sons, however, wh,o; were well o;iri6ed
to
judgealpon the subjen, he had- heard mock disbe-.
lief eipresSedas to the existence of- this S,-xret
iu
floence," He really did not bin:l-at:lf possess
tlz
means'of ascertaining its existence; but even if,it did
exist, the .Constitution afforded ne remedy
,against
it. If there were Mipisters so base as. to ItOid 1.01).(41..
sible situations under irresponsible advisers; hcwever,
great the. clamour Might be against those advisers,.
and. greateven, however great the.mischief-that their ails-
v:ce.' might occasion, the Constitution afforded no
means by Which they Could' be punished ; the re"
sponsible- Ministers -alOne. being hal-de by the C03"1,'
stimtion io.punishment for the eels- outwitted 14,
tht-.11). At tote. Same-time-be begged tOdi,ckiitp
approbation of such underhapdtransaetioirs. 4-o(it
.was-indispensable to see what the Constitution
Wag
upon the subjrs responsibleect, and by. the '`onstttutiouto Ode;
If his Mejest
misters
improper conduct, the, HOnse of Commons ringlvt,
address his Majesty, to remove. them ; hot no ael'
.dress the-Hou,ecould:totich aitY individtial,wdo
to Oa
W uilty iff.
t g
was not a 'responsible Recliniug
cose question, he contended that it the crone,
against against the Noble Lord in the proposed
new
lutions was . not ilistinaly made out..--,if It
not proved that hiS conduct had been (Orila-
unconstitutionaF---nay, if there was the sl.o't`;',„-.
doubt upon the subject, it would be 'an act of
greatest injustice* to adopt a motion -involVinl iii re
some serious consequences to the partv accused" j
was by the Noble LOrd's wish that his-Narrativ
been moved for and presented to the House. eh
Narrative had Certainly-. placed his Lordship in ail
convenient sittataan. If he had instead beer)
mined at the Bar on the points to which it releacdPe
his',statementa in' his own defetfce would perhal°
have been more excusable; and after all, the Narr'ie.,
five; only stated what the Noble Lordhad•done, a
stances of which he, was ignorant.
called upon.the other service to explain the &an':
deed be most unjust, if for any error of judglneYt
the mode Of doing this, the Noble Lord should
the
subjected to a censnre so heavy as that .whic
proposed ItesOlutions conveved..L.4l any audition t:3
Koof were requisite -that EL; indiVidnal 'advice °,
Minister to his Sovereign 'was not unconstitationae.
It would
it might be found in the conduct, on a certain 0c,c,31e.
slot), of a man too warm!), attached to the.
Lion to violate it ; he meant Mr. Pitt, who,- 00 ti
occasion, was closeted with his Majesty, b
Colleagues were kept in the anti-root')). „air)
Lord Tetsuo declared, that it bad seldom- -
to his lot to hear, a speech so frill of most
ektraort;:e
nary and unconsitutional doctrine asqbatec)f
Hen. Gentleman whO had preceded bin?. 1-1 e '-e*.-41-
not conceived the possibility that .af- etiPe'e t;alr
Much less at the present time, such a dotirine
Cons!4!„
behroaChed.- The Hon, Gentleman Vrnsicieriet ;0' A
conduta of the Noble Lord justified by his I.e
Privy couneillor to advise -his Majesty.-; wee
had-said that 'the Cabinet 'Council was a body,eei„
known to the Constitntion, and whiCh had ,
°t.o the
fitted in a eabal;.
,Certainly it was "I"l—vri leriy-"F
Constitution, bUt woUld.the Honourable Gen' tbee
contend- that the Members of it, 'call, d
were to aft in' -the- King's confideotial
atl°
,
ought net to possess ,the connuence„of one
acre to
ther ? Would he contend that.tho:4e .6
e with 018
advise his Majesty ought not to advise eject)
another ? "Besides, at the, time of the cabal itt
the Cabinet Council' originated, the PrivY C(34le„g,
Tors were the Conatitutienal advi3
unitedl): oe
;ir the
The'cabal was composed of fotir
the
.principle of seeresysto advise'
out -a communication .with the Cthioet at far e•
_that occasion' Sir Temple • recoil-rine
Con" Lad, •
Gorgeil,
ILI° take the, advice of .the Privy
and to overturn the cabal ; yet this cabal was. ear
duded- by thee`HOn. Gentleman as a`constitutto
He a"
• ti jos .heation of the Noble Lorkl7s condue.
-Ouced that' against which -the Constitution,
;teafed—the adduced it as an eaaniple for the 1-10
and as an excuse for- the Noble Lord. e-,a
flan SibjestY, 01.1
es
pourable Genth., man 'was of opinion that tin
advice given to his Majesty
visor could nothe punished., Agrinst
lie (Lerd'.l'.): protested ; ' be•than ked, God he
.c
not agree with the Son. Gentleman in his opn.lewee,
of the ConStitutidn.. The Constterjon was not I
rgace
,lated by any written -law—it waS regulr4ed by P
„,/
tires and
,notlilui; could be more contrary to its PI, to,
were acted upon, thi;.11..,;0,
tie th:rn
,that aPrivy Councillor might atternleloe
iloj'al mind, and-that if the SoYci'