The Sun.
London, England, 1819-02-10 00:00:00

CIUMINAL CODE.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH, in au inaudible voice acres%
the table, put a qucstiou to Lord Castleicagh. Wt were
given to understand that it was requiring what was the inten-
tion of his Majesty's' Government respecting some amend-
ment of the law in cases of forgery ?
Lord cAsTLEREAcm. thinking that Sir James meant to
make a motion on the subject on some future-day, observed,
that the Hon. Member might exercisa his discretion so tar as
regarded the business alluded to.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then gave notice, that he
would sup mit to the House his motion that day three weeks.

No rriNon A NISH IRE PETITION.

Mr. BROUGHAM gave n,,tice of his intention to wove the
House uu the subject of the Petition to-morrow.

POOR LAWS.

Mr. STURGES BoortNe rose to move for. the
revival of the Committee on the Poor Laws. , lii
was within the recollection of the House, that
from the laudable labour and reseatches wl,ich,
the Committee had made, services of the first im-
portaice to the Community might be expected.
Mr. S. Bourne then gave a kind of abstract of
their proceedings. The Committee were well
aware that it had tt encounter many serious dif-
ficulties ; but he had no doubt but that every ob-
stacle would be removed, and that so far as tint
United wisdOm and talents of such a Committee
could accomplish. many benefits would he derived
to the public.' The present stare of the pour laws
claimed the immediate attention of Parliament.
The deliberations of toe Committee would go io
check, it not to remedy, a great, a growing, and ran
alarming evil. If Psrliament did riot soon legislate
some amendment of the laws, the distresses of
the poor would increase with the difficulties of
the times. But the grievances which the Corn-
matte were called upon to redress did - not bear
131)9n the poor alone, hut affected:in an alarming'
degree every landholder. Pa ripe ris m Lad arrived
to such an enormous height, that the time might
come, if not prevented by the •interpo.,i(ioti of
P:iiiiante.ht, when Ibe landholder would he obliged
to sacrifice rite whole profits of the soil- for the
maiortuance of the poor, ' In recommetoling the
immediate revival of the Committee, he fl,ittes,d
linaself with the personal aid and conctirrence of
an 'Honourable mud Learned Cientleiwto -(Mr.
Brougham, we learnt), whose abilities would.
give wt iglu to their deliherations,. Should they
even fail to produce at once all the desired. effect,
the coorrry, however, would be satisfied that no
elfort lead been wairtiog op this town:mous UCC3„,

Caen. After several other remarks, Mr.• Ronnie
moved for the revival of the same Committee fOr-
. melt), appointed to inquire into the. state of the
Poor Laws, and to report their opinions thereon.
Mr. CURWVN confessed, that it was with much,
pain and reluctance he found it his duty to oppose
the motion. From the revival of such a Cnn-
mit tee he could conceive no real benefit to the
community. The House had now before it a
complete and minute detail of every information
Which could be desired on the subject. He was,
therefore, for proceeding to some immediate act.
of that House, to prevent. or check the growing'
and alarming evil, so properly depicted by the
Hon. Gentleman. He deprecated farther
while the country remained in the berions'datiger
which it experienced tiotn the waist of 0 ee f-
fectital remedy, The expence of tneintaiesing the
poor '25 years ago amounted to two millions ; it
now exceeded the quadruple of that stun. The
miseries of- the poor increased in proportion to
the diffientties of the times. He denied that any
blame; was 'attached to the conduct of the land-
holders. They were iiideed the chief4tufferers;
bat they bare their ethbarrassments, froM the de-
fects of the laws as they now stood, with COlll-
- fortitude, but not. without apprehen-
sions and fears of Ilse consequences.. This great
evil, for which all classes of society called eland
for sonic speedy remedy, arose from three causes •
—namely, the immense extent of taxation, the '•
inadequate pike of labour, and the depreciation
of money. Fuom the period now mentioned (25
years ago) to the present time, the increase in
the price of labour amounted to the average of
- one-ftierth, attd the -rise its the price of articles
of provisiosts to one-third. So that if any Gen-
tleman would iuclude in the account the neces-
saries absolutely wanted. by the labouring man,.
be meant chit fly those employed by the farmer,
or those labouring in the fields, such as shoes,
clothing, coals, soap, &c., it would he found
that Gevernment obtained in taxes more than
one-ninth of the income of every man of this dee
seription. Instead of agreeing to the appoint-
metes of the proposed Committee, he was fully
persuaded that there - was no remedy eqUal
to at; itterteeditte rednetion of taxation-he
meant that -safe redection which could be kie..
COMpliSiled Wit hi*ut detriment to the i-
rite of Goe-esement. The country
was in a very alermine acid a very desperate state.l
tt eechmeut may become necessary ie all classes
of society, froas the higheet to the lowest ; and '
unless we looked (stir difficulties its the face, and
encountered rhent with iv tette English spirit, we
would be rttir.ed as a nation. Ile recommended
meet earnestly economy; and stack a system to
originate from his Majesty's Ministers would re-
dound to their honour and praise. He adult not
pretend to say whet plaits of economy were in the
contemplation of the Chencellor of the Exclte-
epee but unless some speedy remedy were adopted,
some great and elleetuel reduction of our taxes, the
revolt, be was feartcl, would be dreadful. it was
iteranssible /weeny men to talk of his property—it
eras impossible for any leadhoider to boast of his
poseeeeione, while the poor were so numerous, and
in such a etete of wretchedness and misery.-e-
Viewing things as. they now presented themselves,
there was no public or private safety—so far as
regerdtel a peettentencY of possession. Although
the chief poor rates were nominally paid by the
ferener, they %void(' ultimately fall upon the land-
holder. All Lauded propel ty was endangered by
the menacing appearance of the times. He was
ft:art:ol that the whole population of the COM-
-05 would situ into a general state of pauperism.
Freres a population so paeperised, no recovers of
&erecter or itterety could be eXpected. In draw-
ii)g a disrisocfion between' the landholder andetock-
bolder, he affirmed, that the former contd reckon
on only in the pound, while the latter en-
joyed sixteen sitiiiings in the pound. The Ho.
eoutahle Gentleman represseal at the same time
Iris apprthensiocts am.l fears front the treat in-
et cave of population. In many places the labourer
could not procure bread, and was therefore
re-
duced to substitute potatoes for it. Potatoes com-
posed the cla;ef pert of the food of the labouring
poor in some counties of she sister kingdom. -It
alight he true that this general use of potatoes
tended to increase the population of the country.
So mud) the more alarming, because an increase
of population beyond the means of employment,

it3e-rea.sed iu a piopottiost I degree the irievattces

of sellich we :tow Complained. There ought to be
smite tegtltatilln of wages for the labouriug poor.

The Nesefit-rites, when COMpareti with thi.l;rices
at provisions, were inadeepate. ltt tn,tity dis
triers, t's;e man received 25., while his- wife, when

employed, received is. 6d. But tlie inadequate
eumponsa;lou ft,r labour diel not rest
,itere. The
. farrovt; nt'particulAr periods of the year, could

conduct his business with fewer labourers. Those
discharge were of course thrown on the parish;
and inany ins:ances occurred, vvlien the Overseers
of the Poor obtained the 're-employment of tie
persons this discharged, by giving the farmer a

premium. to relieve the parish. He condemned
tlle combinations which had lately annoyed' the
cowitry. The ii,inislmetit of the offenders was
certainly r ti,c...t,sary Only of Government ; but it
the t9mbinations of the masters, as well as ser-

wants, were attended to, the Public would in wally
instances not hare been so oppressed by finor-
ff the House were in earnest, let them

rat S.

immetliatrly .dopt some plan for the relief of
the agtictiltord libourers. Although his mas-
ter, nt a' certain i,eriod of the year, • could do
with:out him, vet Gentlemen ought to recollect,

that the poor uurrr, thus perhaps ahatuloned,

cou4d not exist without food.

There were about

ruco millions of agricultural labourers exposed

these dfficulties.

vei y Ire portion of our po-

pol.tion were Therefore endangered by incoove-
nienes ritsl miseries of the most scrioos deserip-

I :)U,

Swqlle i',„lr3 of. the Hon.Memberss

Oropused Bill were eligible, sc; far

pr,Cfe..vortit.y.• But the general character ut the
Bil!, and, akmve ail, the procrastination <4 tome
etrectu4l rertl(!y,. i‘lr. Curwen contletut,e(l. A

. : •.
Change in I law of settlement became abso-
lutely nreen try-- Tile I,w as it now stood was
universally egtrphined of. The pretended saving
by the plan shoat to be proposed wool‘l be ill-

fling incited ; it ti !mid Pot amount to one-six-

teettth port of eig:ut millions i:ow requisite. In

{ion.

fo~mtr yeses, the aserage poor eras Jeckuned at the

rate °lone in 28 ; now it amounted, in many dis-
tricts, to one in 14. By the alarming increa.e
of pauperism, the lower people became demora-
lized. Promiscuous cohabitations were common;
dot! the number of bastards. alising from these
promiscuous connexions amounted, he believed,
to six millions ! For the maintenance of obis
spurious offspring, thus thrown upon the public,
(helot)) of 500,000/. a year wae expended. No
effeetual remedy was, in his opinion, within the
reach of the House or Ministers, but a reduction
of taxation ; and he called upon the Executive
'Government to stiggest and bring forward some
plan which would satisfy the Country. He ex-
pected no effective system - from the Committee.
Without. exciting too great an alarm io the
Coutory, he could not help assuring the House,
that 'unless the evil now complained of were
checked by some immediate remedy, all property
and all energy would at once be complrtely de-
stroyed. He therefore should oppose the mot iota.
Lord CASTLCKEAGH supported the motion for
the revival of the Committee. If the House wished
for lamina, ion on the ,übject—it subject of the first
importance—let them agree to the motion 01. his
Hon. Ft iend (Mr. bourne). His Lordship ac-
knowledged, that he always-heard the Hon. Mem-.
ber who had last spoken with much attention and
pleasure—because he believed his intentions were
Kure and disinterested. But he must be par-
&turd if -lie differed from him on the present oc-
casion. The Ilona. Gentleman gave indications of
some tvonderful Plan of taxation—some effectual
remedy—for the relief of the comitty. It would
have certainly been more candid, if the Hon.. Gen-
tlernau, instead of endcavoering to make a partial
impression on the House by a bold. allusiort to his
new plao—ro
ys new project for the reduc-
tion of taxes—it t.eoold have certainly been.more
candid, it the Hon. Mtonber, in the plenitude of
his condescension, had peen kind enough to have
commuoicated his Dew charm of taxation to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, or to any of his Ma-
jesty's Miiiivers !—(Hear,. hear, hear !)—The
labours of the Centmittee had not only his gimd
wishes, but all those of itis Majesty's Government.
His Lordship did not think that such a plan ought
to originate with the Executive Government.—
The comm.'," might feel some jealousy to a mea-
sure thus originating. It would have therefore
been Unwise on the part of Ministers to have
brought forward such a proposition. If the Hon.
Member would suggest any plan of finance, or any
.plan for bettering the condition of thopoorowhiCh,
stood in need of the co-operation of Government,
he might depend on every attention from ihe Ser-
vants of the Crown. It would, however, be on.
wise in Government to interfere till the Com-
mittee bad presented its Report. No blame could
with fairness be imputed to his Majesty's 'Mini"
ters on the present occasion. They had not act-
ed with supineness or ittattention to this subject.
They considered the result of the inquiry would
prove of. the highest importance to the public.—
Witte regard to the fears and alarms which ap-
peared to startle the Hon. Member from his pro-
priety,- he widely differed from hint on the state
of the country. He entertained the most san-
guine hope of our prosperity. No nation at any
period of great public emergency had ever so ra-
pidly enterged from its diffeulties.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—Our trade-, commerce, and revenue were
in the most flattering, condition ; and there was
every appearance of a still farther improvement.
There was therefore nO reason for entertaining
for a moment the melancholy and alarming pie_
tore which the Hon. Gentleman thew of the
For our further improyement, and for
increesing the blessings of peace, he hoped the
House would agree to the motion of his- Honour-
able Friend for the renewal of the Committee._
Their deliberations had continued with unprece-
dented zeal and anxious industrerfor a period_ of
two years. His Lordship-declared, that he never
knew any Committee more solicitouS in the Pnr-
snit of their grated object ; and, from a perfect
conviction of its real utility, his Lordship would
support lite motion. ,
Mr. Buetteee was fliftully to the motion for
time renewal of the Committee. He gave a me-
lancholy account of the distresses of a parish,
either in Brighton or adjacent,. where the poor
tales had lately increased to a very alarming de-
gree; It die present system were longer followed,
all the landholders in and around the South
Downs would be ruined!. All the young single
men were reduced to such a state. of pauperism,
as to be obliged tot throw themselves on the work-
tionee for, the means of existence !
Mr. NIBTIWEN was persuaded that no relief
need be expected While the present ruinous system
of taxation remained. The labouring poor be-

country

came the first sacrifice ; but the gentleman also
struggles seriously against the pressure of the
times. In Wiltshire the public calamity was great
and serious. We May enact laws—we may le-

gisiate as we please—but unless we gave 1 lime.

diate relief to the poor, there would be a rapid in-
cresle.of 90isesries.. called upon Minihter3 to
outrun the country by son,le speedy plan of relief.
The_country honked nowi o the House ; but he

'conk! not expect that our taxes could be got lid

of, however much he wished for their dimiuu-

Mr. T. L. WELLESLEY believed, that he would
ill discharge his duty were tie to remain in silence
on the present occasion. .The question might be
Comprised in a narrow, compass. It was for or
against the resumption of the Committee. He
should vote for its renewal. Every Gentleman,
every Magistrate, every man of. common intelli-
gence, knew that the poor were at this time in the
Most ahjeci state of misery. He differed from the
Honourable Mrtilber (Mr. Cur wen) as to his fears
respecting an increase of our population. if our
population increased, we must find employment for
every one. 13ut with every encomium which the
Committee deserved, he thinight that it would be
better if some proposition came direct from the
Government. He could not conceive a prouder
or a more col/la* situation for the Executive
Governtnent, than that the plan should emanate
originally from them.
Mr. Alderman Warrnmati reluctantly rose at
OW late hoar to offer a few observations to the
House. In the parish in the county where he had
resided for ?3 nE24 mar,s, .the • greatest miseries
were seen and felt. The.p.oor lab,umr.::r Who had
a cottage had no garden. There were at least a

hundred cottages, anti not one hie!) of garden
ground to any of them to 'grow a potatoe on. This
was a melancholy but stubborn fact, while he s4w
Gentlemen's parks extended in all directions.
the Ward which he represeoted,•t he distresses o,
the poor were so great, that one hundred. had been
summoned for non-ptiyment of the poor-rates,
and they were all found so poor that it required
a continual' effort to keep out of the workhouse.
He therefore'wished for some better documents
than those dwelt on by the Noble Lord (Castle-
reagh) in Support, of the flourishing and prospe-
rous state of the country. He wished for some
better authority that) a fine and an alluring ac-
count from the Custom-house books. It was
impossible to give any relief to the poor but by
the rednctinn of taxes.
Colonel WOOD was happy to assure the Hon.
Alderman that the garden ground to the cottages
had nor escaped the notice of the Committee.-7
The Hon. Colonel recommended•warmly the revi-
val of the Committee ; and he hoped, notwith-
standing the remarks advanced by the lion.Mem-
her (Mr. Curwen), that the Committee would
have his aid and concurrence in the adoption of
some effectual measure Of relief. A change in
the law of settlement had alarmed his consti-
tuents. They expressed theirfears for the three
years' residence proposed. The law of settle-
ment ought certainly •to be amended ; but 't% hat
would be the best plan he would not at this time
presume, to suggest.
Mr. MANSFIELD said, that be had had too long
experience as a Magistrate, in a large and populous
district, not to be-as well • acquainted with the
sufferings of the poor, and as feelingly, alive to
their distress, as any of the Hon. Gentlemen who
had addressed - the House. It was front a deep
sense. of their distress that he concurred in the re-
appointment of the/Committee, - which he hoped
would receive a wide extension, and attentively
and zealously direct its vigilance to .this mest im-
portant subject. Before its re-appointment, bow-
ever, he would beg to suggest 'to them, that they
'would meet, not merely to consider the weight
with which the Poor Rates pressed upon the
Landed Ipterest,butthat they would have to consi-
der bow they might best alleviate the misery and
-ameliorate the condition of the Poor. He could
taketipon himself to say, that in the district in which
he had acted as a Magistrate, not only had he
found the instances of imposition on the part of.
the poor comparatively few, but that he had found
them generally grateful for the relief which they
received; and be for one Was satisfied, that all the
relief they received was due to them, as it kept
theth from starving or plunder. He objected to a
statement which had been made by tin Hon. Gen-
tleman in the course of the debate, of the severe
and exclusive pressure which. he had .asserted the
!anti to suffer from the Poo.r Rates ; for be had
forgot to state how much the land had benefited
by the Poor whet their.condition was better, and
'had,enabled them to maintain themselves by their
industry. He concluded-by strongly calling upon
the Committee, while they considered the Landed
Interest>, not to forget the interests of the Poor.
The question was put; and the motion carried.
The former Committee was immediately nomi-
nated and appointed.. Its first meeting is to-mor-
row (this day). Any five are to constitute a
quorum, and leave given to the CoMmittee to sit,
Potwithstandin-g any adjournments of the House.