The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-12 00:00:00

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

-A Message from the Lords announced that their Lord-
ships had agreed to the Corn (Isle of Man) Bill, and several
Private Bills.

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

CATHOLIC QUESTION.

On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, the order of the day
furrestaning the Debate, was read,

Mr. C. GRANT assured the House that he should not
have presented himself to their notice if he could reconcile
it to his sense of duty to give a silent vote. His first vote
in Parliament upon this question was in favour of a similar
motion, and having watched the progress of the question,
the conclusion which he had come to was that the
which he had then given and the votes which he had since
given upon the various discussions upon this subject, were
calculated to promote the best interests of the empire at-
large, by putting down all religious distinctions hi Irelrnd.
If there was any portion of the picture drawn by the Mon.
Member for Kerry, of the state of Ireland, accurate as it
was, such as ought to call for the attentive cousideration
of the House. So long as a fragment of the atrocious
penal laws remained in operation, 60 long would there be
dissensions in Ireland. The opponents of this motion
said, that let whit-concessions would be, granted to the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, they would nut be satisfied,
and they rested their arguments upon the language held
by the Catholics, and thus in fact urged the evils of the sys-
tem as a ground of continuing it. • The evil of legislation.
in Ireland was that you gave to numbers what ought to he
given to. property, and that being the case the system must
be convulsive—influence was given to numbers, and a
counteracting influence was denied to property. It had
been said that our Constitution was extended to Ireland, and
they wee e not satisfied, he for one did not know .what was
maant by extending,,the British Constitntion to Ireland—
he did not underst.md giving the British Constitution by
piecemeal.—(Cheers.)—The House had-been told that the
Catholics followed concessions step by step by demand,,
for larger concession. The Hon. Baronet (Sir R. lugliss)
had spoken of the concessions of right of private property,
and of personal protection as examples of munificent bounty
by the English Government, but he (Mr. Charles
Grant) could look upon such concessions in no other
light than as a restitution of part of those inalienable
rights, of which the Roman Catholics had been deprived
by an odious system of. penal laws, and he thought that
their demands for further concessions never would and
never• ought to cease until full and equal justice were
done.—(Cheers.)—He would say if this country were
to take up any position with respect-to the Catholics they
ouglia to take one which was intelligible and not incon-
sistent, but when a position was taken up by which that
influence was given to numbers which was denied to pro-
perty, there could be no other result expected but disunion and
discontent. He was a Member of the Church of England by
education and upon principle, and he was therefore anxious
to remove from the Church Establishment that odium
which the continuance of exclusive laws was calculated
to attach to it. Those who opposed the motion upon
the ground of their attachment to the Established Church,'
whbether they thought they did their duty towards that
Church, by holding it up to thr paople of Ireland as an ob-
ject of hatred and detestation. (Lend cheers.) He thought
the real security for the Established Church was the
granting the question, but he at the same time was willing
to admit that this House had a sight to ask for such secu-
rities for the Established Church as the Roman Catholics
could 'without a violation of their conseiences give—
(Cheers)---and he bad no doubt that if such securities were
required, they would be granted. He did not think the
question of 'securities ought to be matter of negociation
between the Legislature and the Roman Catho-
lics, but it was the duty of the Legislature to im-
pose securities, and then say to the Roman Catholics,
" these arc the terms of our law, bring yourselves within
the opertion of it, - if you think fit."—(Cheers.)—We are
now-looking at the internal concerns of our country—we
have our Finance Committee—we are, if I may use the ex-
pressit n, trimming our vessel, preparing for whatever dif-
ficulties may arise—foreign natiors were doing the same,
but they were also tranquilizing their subjects at home.—
(Clwers.).-We were not following their example—we,
notwithstanding all our other efforts, were leaving a large
portion of our people discontented. We were publishing
to foreign:nations that we had a part of our Empire
which was most vulnerable, and which by our con-
tinued system of oppression was likely 'not to be well-
affected to this country. I entreat the House to reflect
what Ireland was and what this country ought to be.
I will not revert to treaty or intentions, but place
the claims of the Roman Cat:wiles of England and Ire-
land, not on the shifting principles of expediency, but
on the unalterable and eternal principles of truth and
justice. Those. principles nothing can ever shake nor
refute. They form the snevitable and undeniable contract
hetweon the governor and the governed—the ruler and his
people. On this. principle the House of Commons should
decide ; and through this House, the people of England.
Whether it is now or to-morrow that those claims shall be
obtained, I know not. I see the prognostics of success in
this House and out of this House. I might mention the
two Universities. On the present occasion the University
wo( all.—
(Cheers.) h Cho
,avaruir.
that
atg
tTer,ethilfieuoi
of Oxford sent only a partial petition ; and the University
t
resi:et aqtaniniret'es si!ttliroinsas)". mo'tuutl:selitiOnro°;: ni
considern this House, typo
ibiaevceoanlsli considered tl
graceas a cotfi g (.I.Byutbelcarworiuedld, andask
these persons whether, if it must. be carried at -last, it
would not be fairer to have no delay ? Would it not be
fairer to Ireland, and also fairer
to our own enstitnents. I asked if the qucetian must be
when au act of justice will
ocitiirTied‘vb)
sure of union with Ireland. If other nations have seen
elsroossietye.
out.; Let us fill up the urea-
gth, let them see
weakness, nut
ie ctrhreylgueinat now,
that the spell had vanished, and that as we have conquered
other nations, we can conquer ourselves. These are the
principles Which the House should take into its considera-
tion, and which I shall leave it with confidence, assured of
a fair and impartial decision.

Colonel I)AVIES thought the measure now proposed
would do no good to Ireland, and that there was a strong
feeling against it in England. lie denied that the Roman'
Catholics had any abstract or indefeasible right to political
concessions. If the douse has disposed to place much
weight on abstract rights upon what principle were females
excluded from political influence. There would be no
ether right in the Roman Catholics but that which was
grounded on the great principle of political expediency.
On the whole he recommended a Select Committee to
inquire into the question. Any measure recommended by
sucha Committee, would necessarily carry great weight.
Without the strength of some such recommendation, he did

not think it advisable to grant these concessions, and if the
measure was carried through this House, it would be stopped
elsewhere, which would only-lead to the disappointment of
the Catholics.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN conceived that not only the
rights of Ireland, but the necessity of England . required
that these concessions should be made to the Catholics.
All the treaties enteeed into with the people of Ireland were
broken, and they were now told that they had no claim to
those concessions granted to them at a time when they
were in a position to demand them. He attributed the
greataniliority exercised by the priests in Ireland to the
conduct pursued by the English Government towards that
country. It was said that- the priests bad established a
sort of spiritual allegiance ; but this was owing to bad
laws, and hot to the effect of the Catholic religion.
They stated that the Catholics were unaccommodating and
wished to encourage noting but opposition to the constitu-
ted authorities—this was thrown out by the other side of
the House; but instead of this being so, the Pope went to
the very utmost .of his power to imitate, and adopt the
religious rule of the established Church of this Country ;
he had even introduced into the Catholic form of prayer, a
prayer for the health and welfare of King George, and that
he might vanquish and overcome all his enemies. If the
House looked to the milirary service of the people of Ire-
land, it would find that 450,000 had been raised out of that
-country, all Catholics in the course. of fifteen years. The
Hon Member adverted adverted to various pieces of evidence
as he considered .hem for the purpose of supporting his
side of the debate. In the year 1796 a messenger was sent
to France by the Protestants of the North for the purpose
Of being examinee respecting the character and influence of
the Priests, and from his evidence, as well as from that
given by dfferent individualS on various occasions, it ap-
peared that if the Clergy of Ireland was not then with, it
wasnot,against the Constitution of England, and if it' was
turned against it now that change had been made by the
hoSti!e laws of this Country. A Protestant Bishop two
of this country stated eowever in one of his works
4hat his religion and that moreover of his Catholic
brethren were one. This was a painful subject to' dWell
upon,. and be had neither talent nor eloquence to . enable
him to do so in such a manner as the subject deserved;
but be could assure the House that until the jarring that
took place from day to day throughout the different king-
doilia was set at rest, the Constitution would never be
at peace, nor the country rest in security. Nor were it
their wish to be put dOwn by violence ; they might be
won by conciliating measures, but in no other way were
they to be dealt with.
Lord ENNISMORE would say that the Jaws respect-
ing the Catholics were a disgrace to the age iu which we
lived. They were repugnant to jusstice and to every
feeling of humanity.—(Dear, hear, hear.)---ln calling
the Legislature's attention to these laws, he hoped the
heads of the Government would weigh well the prat,
tical effects resulting from a continuance of these enact-
menta. In what respect were the penal laws useful, or
likely .to be useful to the country ? They were, in the
Noble Lord's notion, calculated only to degrade, both •n!o-
-rally and politically. Whilst these laws existed, property
must be .insecure ; and su far from benefitting England
in any whatever which he could conceive, they had been
like a
,thorn in her side ever since they were passed.
Coercion had been resorted to, but coercion .never would
put down the Catholic Association ; it might for a While
stifle its voice, but .there was a fire .kindled that never
would be quenched until all religious and civil disabilities
were removed. Emancipate the Catholics and the children
of the Honourable Members of this House, as well as their
ehildrens children, would bless the day on which such
seer of peace and harmony had been thrown into the
Irish soil.

Mr. G. I3ANKES was surprised that the President
of the Board of Trade, and the other Members connected
with his Majesty's Government, who had used such strong
language with respect to the state of Ireland, had not also
informed the House of the particular manner in which
these mischief were to be removed : he ought to have ac-
companied their description of the evil with some inforMa-
tion as to the specific remedy which was in their minds to
effect a cure. Ile could not agree with the Noble Lord
who on a former night said that he would prefer to hear
the ,Catholic orators pour forth their violence in that
House than in the Catholic Association. He could wit
t4get that these were the very same orators who had
libelled the dying moments of a late Illustrious Personage,
and had used towards him cruel and malignant expressions
and language which still remained unpunished, uncancelled,
and unanswered.

Mr. DENISON (we believe) supported the motion.
He was aware that a strong feeling prevailed in many
parts of the country against granting any further concession
to the Catholics, but that feeling was daily giving way.
Mr. NORTH said, that the real question was not whe-
ther they should grant concession to the Roman Catholics,
but how Ireland was to be tranquillized.—(Cheers.)—lt
mattered not, in his opinion, what the construction of the
Treaty of Limerick was, or what had been the conduct of
the Government at the time of the Union. Even sup-
posing that he should coincide with the views of the Right
Bon. Secretary upon these points, he should still feel that
his strongest argument remained untouched. The Hon.
,and I,earned Gentleman entered into a detail of the anoma-
lous state of things which had grown up in Ireland under
the operation of the present laws, and concluded an
eloquent and powerful appeal, by calling on the House to do
an act of justice to the country at large, as well as to the
Catholics—to grant to the letter their just and long with-
held rights.
Admiral EVANS opposed the motion in a speeh which
excited considerable merriment in the House.

After a few observations from Mr. CAREW, in supper
of the motion,

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that he still
continued to adhere to his former opinions on this subject.
Arguing the puestion as it would be argued in a Court of
Law, he would ask whether it was likely that parties who
wished to stipulate for political rights would confine
.them-
selves to stipulations to wear a brace of pistols ? He cer-
tainly did nut think they would, and he therefore thought
the Treaty of Limerick must be left out of the question.—
( Hear, hear. )—Yes, he did hear.— (Laughter.)—The
Treaty of Limerick was never thought of until within the
last year or two, and he thought his Hon, Friend who
had brought it from the Court of Chancery in Ireland,
might have as well have left it where it was. The professed
object of the Hon. Baronet's motion was to produce union
among all His Majesty's subjects, but le (the Attorney-
General) was satisfied that that that object could not be at-
tained. From four Committees of that House, which had
sat upon this subject no good bad resulted, and if this tvere
the first time this question were before the Honse he would
r aa
say " Go into a Committee by all Means."—(Laughter.)
—He should, therefore, oppose the motion, because expe-
rience proved that no good could result from it. The Ca-
tholics had always rejected offers of concession, for in 1813
xtvhasey,arepjercotfeuisi
ion (v)fetooa,tiailstlaionudghi in
securities, Alr.
and n
t t 's bill there
there
ryas also
a clanse fur the appointment.of a commission, consisting of
a Catholic Bishop, and one of His Majesty's Ministers, and
another clause requiring the sanction of His Majesty to all
Ecclesiastical Appointments by the Pope, and the Catholics
had then authorised Lord Grenville to state their acquies-.
cenco in those clauses, but when the matter was coming to
a successful issue, the Catholic's rejected the clauses; and
the BishopS with Dr. 'Milner at their head declared that
the last drop of their blood before they would consent to
the interference of a Protestant King, with the appoint-
ment of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.—(Hear, hear.)
• —The matter, moreover, did not rest here, for in the
year 1522, when Mr. Plunkett's Bill in which were the
same clauses was introduced, the Catholics said they would
not accept the relief offered by that Bill, but Mr. Canning
and Mr. Plunkett replied, " We care nut whether they
reject it er not—let them do so if they like—let, us do
what is right.",(Cheers from the Opposition.)—Gentle-
men 'eight cheer, and though they might draw one in-
ferenee front the statement, he must lie less at liberty to
draw another and a different inference. He was satisfied
the House would not grant a boon to the Catholics with-
out requiring those securities which Pitt, Grattan, and
Plunkett thought • indispensible. He should not trouble
the House further upon that point, but he would ask if the
Church Establishment was not at the time of the Revolu-
tion made part and parcel of the Constitution of England.
The same principle was recognized by the Act of Seat;
meat which required that the Crown, the Ministers of ,t
Crown, the Members of both Houses of Parliament, and
the persons holding places of trust should be Protestant.o
It was now proposed to abrogate that principle by a 11 u s.
ing Catholics to sit in Parliament and to hold ',lame of trust
—to neither of which could he ever agrees A 1\ oble Lord
opposite had swirl, the other night, that be was not a friend
to Popery, fur he lied a machine to beat it down—the
public Press.—(Cheers,) lie begged leave to inform the
House, that that machine cut two ways, and there could
be no doubt that in wielding that machine the Catholic
Priest would be found to be as active as another.—
Cheers.) The Protestant Church bad another sscurityy
in the Bible Societies; but it should not be forgotten that
the Missionaries of those Societies were designated by the
Pope as strolling players, who were a plague and p etilenco
which ought to be avoided.—(Laughter.) Wha benefit '
could be derived from the printing press if the Po, would
not permit the Catholics to read what issued fi.eu
(Cheers.)—What . would the Rectoral found( , of •the
London University say if his Majesty's Irish subjests-Were•

litx))
prevented from reading the hible.--CCheera and Laogi;'k
—..-The letters of J, K, L, (every one knew who .1,,,bt it
was) stated that the Archbishop of Dublin had no riaittbc
his title. This statement showed that the Roma'. de
de
lies considered, as intruders in those offices' to W. 13, fill
Roman Catholic Bishops were entitled, but cOl'ofttC
King had conferred upon' the Reverend Paelateso
Established Church. The same control existed in
'", s'
over-the Church, as existed in 'England. The 110 ~
pointed the Prelates, and any one who appealed tots
was deemed guilty of high treason. , Ile thoue.e
~
in no Catholic country was such an extent of Po 'to
granted to any religion, not being the religion of th,e IP
as this bill would give to the Catholics of Irelaayo
coald not agree to a proposition which would aole
the surrender to the Catholics of the Coronation 01!vio
r
the surrender of the Bill of Rights, and, ip fact, to tuev;p
render at every thing that was valuable in the Congit iiol4
—(Cheers.)--For these reasons he was opposed 10
~014
into the Committee. The Protestants of Englasaluad:
never 'consent to Surrender to intimidation those 410',
previleges which were to them their most invaluable
right. The Right Hon. Gentleman then sat dowO°
lhud cheers. ~ ci
Mr. WALLACE said, that he believed in b"of
science that nothing like intimidation was used, as i
gument to induce the House to agree to the motiotio,
he thought it Was rather unfair to intimidate Hon,
ro
Remit from using any argtiment they might think 1, I,
upon so momontous a question. If the Catholics
land were to understand that the House, by refusiogo,,,
into a Committee, had made a final determinatieOp
this subject, what, he wonld ask, , must be the efkai
They would place their reliance no longer in the i'/,',la
or justice •of Parlipment,.but look to themselves 0 a:
own resources for relief. The Honourable Membes
caeded to address the Houie at great length ; but fo:rr
low tone of voice, and frOm the great confusion Ole"
14
vaiAnled,
Mlie was inaudible in the gallery
onourabhaMEMßEß, whose. name we e.oo„f
ascertain, and stated himself to he a reprasentative"
Irish county, supported the motion.
I,io'l
- Mr. Secretary HUSKISON then rose. He di9fri.
any intention of founding his support of the proposed te,e',,
upon the Treaty of Limerick, whilst. he had the locr.
urging arguments, and advancing lemons deduced fe°a lai,
existing state of the country. With respect to the fita,
supposed to have been given to the Catholics at then
the Union : he way ready to admit that reports lit'"
gone abroad calculated to excite hopes in the Ca ,0
although he was convinced that Mr. Pitt had nstV
any express promise. . There was no pledge—but ri
had been a great disappointment--ahe, had on,fors'ed 1
casions expressed his sentiments on this question, s"'
solemnly declared that he had retired from every disc il
with au increased conviction of the justice of thec i'
,a
put forward by the Catholics, and whatever might lif
result of that night's division, he should retire ori',l
firm Lelia* that the settlement of this question could
much longer delayed.--(Cheers.)—The Right Hoe' i
proceeded to reply to the speeches made in the course °ea
debate on the other side, and declared that nothing ii,
in his opinion, establish the ascendancy of the CAC,
priesthood in Ireland, but the system of peasecuti° '
therto-pursued. ,
Mr. BROUGHAM now ruse, anti said that lie ,i,°
detain the House but a few minutes, fur he thougbtai
the able apcecnes which had been delivered on his Pli
question, in the course of the discussion, and particuh,!
after that delivered by the Right Hon. Gentleman TO:,
just sat down, he would be intruding upon the 14° lit
he took up much
.time in giving his opinion, Ile "0:
nut go back to the Treaty of Limerick, the name of Atliwas at no premium in the House,—(a laugh.)--a°°,o 1
they had-nothing•to do with it—but that that theitri I
superfluous to it. fit\ would enter into no train o'ii
soiling, to show that where a treaty betweem a weak '4.,4
powerful party was .entered into, and when the terl'd
that, Treaty were ambiguous that Treaty should he itM
' strued in tavour of the weeken patty. Iu the worse 0
arguments, those Gentlemen who were opposed t(1, i
d
opinions which he supported in the course of the disct
asautned that there. as no danger in matters as tb'eeo
a
present stood.—(Cheers.) But this was au assotil/401'
nut capable of being sustained by facts. He must sal
that the Right Honourable • And Learned Getitod
(the Attorney-General) had not argued the - P t/i
question in so statesman-like .. a
.. matmer 311 iii.
Right Honourable Member for Oxford. , .The Rigbs ill
Gentleman had referred to the danger to be effeeWtot;
the Bulls issued by the Vatican, and dwelt upon the " 7,,
likely to result if they •wure permitted, as if the POPe.,,e
not at present issue those Bulls, and as if those Bulls''
not obeyed by the Catholics of Ireland. Could thigg,
main as they now were.? No one who had spoken ag';
the motion, asserted that they could. However o'l'4"
men might be to preserve the Constitution, no twelve!')
in that House would be got to say that things could retnool
they were. He conceived that passing the Catholic Bill ~,
the great security, though he was not unwilling to enter t't'i,
the consideration of other securities. He rejoiced
.dia
the discussion was brought - to a termination ");
so much temper ; and he hoped, that at whichever 'til
'success might fall, it would. not be attended with t/!la'
coming exultation. It was a fearfully important subiti
embracing the peace of one part of the empire, 0
the security of the rest. He hoped before one hour vas' 0,
the hopes of the Catholics would be gratified, and thatai
House would have the consolation of knowing that it
il,
Contributed to the peace, happiness, and security of
empire.—(Cheers.)