The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-02 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

Colonel DAVlES.—Seeing the Right lion. Gent.
at length in his place, I wish to know from him
whether it is the intention of his Majesty's Minis-
ters to proceed with the report of the Committee
of Supply this evening ? It is now half past five
o'clock, and for the last half hour we have bad
no business before us.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered
that MinisterS certainly meant to proceed with
the. report. The usual hour for beginning pub-
Liz business was five o'clock, and it was not now
much beyondthat. He, however, had no objec-
tion to commence with the public business at half
vast four. The 'Right Hon. Gentleman then
moved, " that the report of the Conimittee of
Supply be now brought up."
It was then brought up, and some of the items
were agreed to without any observation.—On the
resolution for granting 105,9431. ss. 10d. for the
pay of the' general staff in Great Britain being
read,

Mr. 11. G. BENNET said, that in the absence
of the Noble Secretary at War (Lord Palmer,
stony, it was not his intention to take up the time
of the 'House by any observations on the various
items at present. He, however, took this oppor-
tunity of stating that it was the intention of an
Non. Friend of his (Mr. Hume) to submit to the
House, as soon as the whole of the estimates for
the army, the navy, and the ordnance, had been
reported, a series of resolutions on the whole of
our military expenditure. This, he (Mr. Bennet)
thought, would be a better mode than that of
going now into the details of each item ; for,
from the scanty attendance of the House, it ap-
peared as if the House had become tired of the
,Estimates. When the whole should have been
gone through, the motion of his Hon. Friend
would embrace a comprehensive view of the en-
tire of our military'expenditure as compared with
former. years. The House had now been occu-.
pied with those estimates for seventeen days, and
notwithstanding all the efforts that had been
made on. teat (the oppoSition) side, a reduction.
of a single siditing- had not taken -place. They
had passed greatarid Small Estimates just as they
had been pro'posed by Ministers, without the
slightest deduction. Indeed, upon the amount.
they seemed to have been wholly indifferent. He
was satisfied,, however,. that though the Honse.
was not ashamed of granting such immense sums,;
his Majesty'S Ministers were not now indifferent'
to them, and that we should never again, in time
of peaCe; see such Estimates.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Estimates had been brought -in on a scale'
suitable to the circumstances of the country, and
the "louse had agreed to them with Ont a single
deduction ; and having the approbation or the
House in favour of those Estimates, it was not
the opinion -of the Hon. Member (Mr.":'Bennet)
which should induce Ministers to change them.
Any change that might'hereafter be made would
be such as suited the circumstances of the case;
for it should be recollected that die estimates
were not a fixed arid' permanent expenditure, but
varied with 'circumstances. Whenever the reso-
lutions of which the Hon. Member had, spoken
should come to be discussed, Ministers w-ould be
ready.to meet them ; but in the meantime he
must protest against the assertion that Ministers
ought to be ashamed of what they had done,
considering that all the Estimates they had
brought forward had met the approbation of the
'House.

Colonel DAVIES said that when the half pay
should come to be re-considered he should op-
pose it. As to the approbation of the House,
which the Right lion. Gentleman had boasted of,
he thought it was but saying little in favour of
the Estimates ; for be felt satisfied that if Mi-
nisters had proposed a thousand pounds for every
hundred that had already been agreed to, the
House would not have opposed it.

Mr. R. MARTIN rose to order. lie said he
did not consider it fair to impute to the whole
House what he was sure the Hon. and Gallant
Officer would not have imputed to any man below
that bar—that he would vote for 1,0001. instead
of 1001., if Ministers had proposed it. lid hoped
the Gallant Officer would have the decorum not
to persist in such a charge.
The SPEAKER said that he had paid attention
to what had fallen from -the Hon. Member (Col.
Davies), and he did not consider that it was at
all out of order. If the lion. Member had mad
a charge upon any other Member calculated to
produce an unfavourable impression, then it
would be disorderly ; but he conceived it by no
means out of order to state that a majority, or
any portion of the Members of that House,
would take a different view of any subject from
that which he (Col. Davies) had taken.

Colonel DAVIES said that the Speaker had
certainly put the true construction upon his
words. What he meant was, that such was the
blind confidence of the majority of that House in
Ministers, that they would have voted 1,0001.
for eyery 1001. ,that had been granted, if Go-
vernment bad thought proper to propose it. As
to the observation of the Hon. Member (Mr.
Martin), that he . (Colonel Davies) would not
state to a Member below the bar what he had
said of a majority of that House, he
,would tell
him that he was not ashamed to avow below the
bar, or any where else, whatever he said in his
place.—Mr. MARTIN explained.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had un-

derstood the Gallant Officer differently from. the
Member for Galway he conceived, that by
saying Members would have.. Voted 1,0001. in-
stead of MU, he only paid'a high comgliment
to the Ministers of the country.
Mr. SCAttLETT, was not surprised at the Right
Hon. Gentleman's considering it as a high torn-
pliment, because., be must be aware that the
House had had long experience of them; and
the confidence of Members was shewn in a- still
higher degree by the thin houses- in which those,
-vast sums had• been voted. It might be a ques-
tion, however, whether many-of those Members
would not have done the same for any Ministiy.:
The Resolution was then agreed to.—On pro-
posing the Resolution for granting the sum of
122,3241. for the pay of General Officers not
having reffiments

Sir-ILTEnoussoN said he had before .ciir&
plaiyed of the treatment of many.General.Offi-
cers without regiments. lie did not !maw that
every General Officer should be allowed 'the
same as formerly ; but what he rose to state w-as;
that a great many. of them who were old: ntid
meritorious officers, were left with only_ the '-half
pay of LieutenantXolonels, and some of them
with the half-pay of Majors, after a constant•ser-
vice of from SO to 40 years. He had a letter
from one of them in his possession, in which he
stated that after a constant service of 41 years-4-:-
a great part of which was- spent in a N.varin
mate, by which his constitution was considerably.
injrved—he was now. at the age of 60 years, left
with his family to depend on his half-pa:y. as
a Major, though he had been created a Major-
General. Ile did not wish to disturb the settled
rules of. the service .with respect to the paY. of
those General Officers ; but surely some excep-
tion might be made for such meritorious officers
as he had described. When he saw clerks who
had only served a few years ,so well provided
for, he thought it would be- but justice to consi-
der the greater claims of that highly respectable
body.of men whom he had mentioned.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that,- in
the absence of his Noble Friend at the head of
the War department,• he was unable to give au
explanation on this subject that would be satis-
factory to the House.
The resolution was then agreed to.
question for re-considering the half pay,
Colonel.Divies said that, in his opinion,. the
great body •of the officers on half pay had beeli
very ill treated, and the country had not• been
justly dealt with in having so many. new corn.
missions given while so large a body of men re-
mained on the half-pay list. The total number
ofretired officers of all ranks, exclusive of general
officers and.those who had retired on full pay,
was 8,616 ; the half pay of which cost the country
the sum of 765,7811. I t .night be expected that
a considerable portion of this number should bti•
promoted to full -pay when vacancies occurred ;
but the total number of appointments in 4 years
and a half, fropi half pay, had been only 411.
Of those officers on half pay, there 'were 1,421
Cornets and 'Ensigns. Now in the time -which he
spoke of, there had been 508 appointments, as
Cornets and %Ensigns ; and of these only .5'2 had
taken place : the others were made from cadets
and from civil life. In this he considered there
was great injustice done to the individuals on
half pay and to the public, by having such a
number chargeable on the half pay list, whose
half pay might he saved if they got promotion to
full pay. The Hon.. Member then went into a,
series of calculations to shew, that if half those
appointments he mentioned had been made from
the half pay, a saving of 206,3531. might be
.made
to the public, taking their lives at 12 years' pur.
chase. It might be said, perhaps, that this-was
arguing as if all those officers were to remain on half
pay all their lives; but hewould say,such calculation
was fair with respect to most of them ; and if ally'
occasion should occur when the services of all of
them would be required, they would not have
to thank the present regulations for-it. He did-
not mean to say that all commissions should be
filled up from the half-pay, but that a fair pro.
portion of those officers should be selected for
promotion. On this subject he would take an
early opportunity of submitting a resolution to
the House. The resolution which he would pro-
pose was oue- which had been carried nem. con:
in that House in the year 1740. It was, that an -
humble Address, be presented to his Majesty,
praying that he would be graciously pleased, for
the present and future ease of his Majesty and
the public, to employ in his army such officers
on the half-pay list as were still qualified to.
serve. If such a resolution were considered ne-
cessary in 1740, it would be found much more
so in the present time.
Lord PALMERSTON said that it was the inten- '
tion of his Royal highness the Commander in.
Chief to fill up vacancies from the half-pay, and
to satisfy the cravings of the officers on that list;
as far as could be done without prejudice to the
service. The Noble Lord then went on to show,
that the number appointed from the half-pay was
greater than the Hon. Member seemed to be
aware of. He added, that it would be injurious
to till up appointments from the half-pay only, •
for that mould close up the army, and shut
out persons in civil life, the, leaving the army
open to which was necessary to connect the in"
terests of the army with the property of the'
country. Any one who had viewed the transac-
tions of Europe for the last 12 months would see
how necessary that was.

On the

Mr. HUME contended that a very considerable'
Sa ins might be made if a fair proportion of half-
pay officers were appointed to the full pay. 1-144
such a proportion been followed, the present, an-.
Dual amount of the half pay might be lessened tto

the country by the sum of 29,416-1/., and this
taken at • 12. years' _purchase would amount to
353,5681. .He was anxious to have this placed
on record, -and would therefore move, as an
amendment, a resolution con:ail:AT the calcula-
tions which he had mentioned. Thelfon. Mem-
ber then moved his resolution.
On the amendment being put.,
General GASCOYNE said that the lion Gent.
should have recollected that,the length and
ex-
tent of the late war had not only left many offi-
cers, but the children of many officers, charge-
:able to the country. In the .54tii regiment,
which he had the honour of commanding, the six
companies had been filled up since the war from.
the half pay, and the consequence ‘s'as, that the
oldest Lieutenant at the conclUsion of the'ivar
was still oldest Lieutenant. Since 1;316, from
250 to 300 officers per annum had voluntarily re-
tirc.l on half pay,--and it was not likely that they
would again wish to be put on active service.'
.coIoneI.DAVIES asked how many of the six

companies had been filled by exchanges, paying

• .
the difference?—General GASCOYNE.—Not one.
6 Sir R. H. VIVIAN begged to allude to the

, great difficulties to which Major-generals were
exposed. They had formerly been able to sell
their Lieutenant-colonelcy ; but now, though
they paid 5,0001., they were prevented, by being
put on half pay, from the sale of the commission.
Colonel DAvJES asked how many of the six
companies mentioned by the Gallant General had
been- exchanged- ?—Gen. GAscoYNE.—Pour.
Mr. HustitssoN argued that if the army were
supplied from the half pay, none from civil life
could have been received into it since the war.—
Since-that period, 1,762 had retired on half pay,
. by paying the difference.
Mr. HumE said, his amendment would not in-
terfere with promotion. His object was to stop
all admission into the first rank, till all who were
willing to return from half-pay of that rank were
. employed. He held in his hand a list of 71 En-
signs who had been put on half-pay the very day
they had received their commissions. This was
owing to the system. Of the 597 commi4ons,
which the Noble Lord had stated to have been
sold, he had not mentioned how many were sold
by order of the Duke of York. The Commander-
in-Chief ought not to sell commissions.. Since the
war 130 Ensigns had been put on half-pay the
very day they received their commissions. This
was an abomination. But this was the system
in order that the Commander-in-Chief might give
4901. to some one, a widow or the children of an
officer, a commission was thus sold. He believed
the Commander-in-Chief acted with great discre-
tion and humanity ; but it were much better that
any claims of the nature to which he had alluded
should be provided for by Parliament, than that
.commissions should thus be given to persons who,
if he might judge from their age, ought not to
.have left school.—Gen. GASCOYNE explained.
Lord PALMERSTON said the whole number put
•on half pay on the day they received their com-
missions, was, according to his list, 19. The
Hon. Gentleman must have made up his list from
returns during the war, when it was the practice
to raise corps, not for service, but for the pur-
pose of being drafted into other corps. The
officers of such draftable corps were at once put
on half pay.
The amendment was then negatived without a

Mr. HUMS said the number since the war, ac-
cording to the Noble Lord's list, was 130. The
• Noble Lord had said the list might be relied on :
and that list was now his authority.
Lord PALMERSTON explained that the cause of
commissions being thus given on the same day on
which the officer holding it was put on half pay
was, that officers offered their commissions for
sale, and their battalions were reduced before the
sale was effected. It would. have been hard in
such a case to have deprived the officer of the
sale of his commission ; but the sale was, in fact,
the sale of the'half-pay. This was the way in
which officers were put on half pay on the day
of receiving their commissions.
ColonelD4SlEi made some remarks against
, the general use of such a practice.
Sir 11. HARDINGE spoke at some length of the
hardships under which General Officers on half
pay laboured.
The Resolutions were then read and agreed to.
Lord PALMERSTON, as was understood, gave
notice that to-morrow he should move the votes
for the disembodied Militia.
To .a question from Mr. Bernal,
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that be
hoped it would be understood that for the rest
of the Session Ministers would be in their places
and ready to begin public business at half past
four. He was perfectly willing to go into the
fullest discussion of all the Estimates 'for -the
year; and for this purpose it might be well to
devote Wednesdays particularly to that purpose.
Ministers were prepared to bring. on the Navy
Estimates to.morrow but Thursday, biing the
birth-day, was usually adjourned over.
Mr. HUME sad that he should be at his post
every day at half past four.
The Marquess or LONDONDERRY, after con-
sultation, added, that it might be well to take
the remainder of the Army Estimates to-morrow,
the Navy Estimates on Friday, and the Ordnance
Estimates on Monday next.—(Hear.)
Col. DAVIES gave notice, that to-morrow he
would move his address regarding the employ-
ment of half-pay officers.
SCOTCH COURT OF ADMIRALTY.
On the question that the Scotch Court of Ad-
miralty Bill be read a third time, Lord A. HA-
MILTON made a few remarks on the co:npensa-
tion clause contained in it.—The LORI) ADVO-
CATE noticed the endeavours used to render the
measure perfect : he believed that 'it did not
contain a single objectionable clause, as they had
been approved by all the legal bodies in Scot-
land.—After a few words from Mr.•llumr, the
Bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr.
HUME, the LORD ADVOCATE, and Lord A HA-
MILTON, made various observations on the Court
of Session Bill, after which the Report was taken
into further consideration. It was ordered that
the Bill should be read a third time on Friday.
On the motion of Mr. HUME, several accounts
relative to the Royal Marines, Artillery, and

Engineers, were ordered to be laid upon Ow table,
—The other orders. of the day were then read,
and the House adjourned at NINE o'CLocu.

MINORITY

ON THE }TM:. TI. G. BENNET'S MOTION' Ar,AINST ALLOW-
I!,TO A cmAnc.r.,:or -.E.3,109, OR SIXPENCE IN THE POUND
AS AGENCY FOR THE PAY:VIZ:I;T OF IeREIGN lIALF-PAY.
—MONDAY, APRIL :.1).
Birch Josh. Hobhonse,-.T. C. Powlett, Hon. W.
Belgrave, Vise. Harlkirtl; Hon. E. J. F.
Beaumont, T. W. Ilamilton, Lord A. Russell,. Lord J.
Bright, Henry Latouche, R. Rice, G. R.
Bernal, It. Lushington, S. Wharton, John
Crompton, S. Maxwell, John Wyvill, M.
Davies, Colonel Illonek, .J. B. Wood, Matthew
Denman, I'. Milbank, Mark Wilson, Thomas
Evans, William O'Callaghan, Col. ' 'I'ELI.EIt.
Forbes, C. Phillips, G. Bennet, Hon. 11. G.

MINORITY • '
ON MR. CREEVEY'S MOTION, THAT THE HOUSE WOULD
- TAKE INTO ITS SERIOUS CONSIDERATION THE HICH
SALARIES, OF £l,OOO AND UPWARDS, OF •CLERKS IN
PUBLIC OFFICES. .MONDAY, APRIL 30.
Brougham; Henry Hume, Joseph Robarts, A. W.
Bernal, Ralph Ilobhouse, J. C. Robarts, G. J.
Coffin, Sir L • Hutchinson,Hon.C. Russell, Lord J.
Cavendish, Hon. Monek, J. B. . Scarlett,: James
11. F. C.. Martin, James Taylor, M. A.
Davit* Colonel Milbank, Mark - AVrni aro s , Sir R.B t.
Denman, Thos. - O'Callaghan, Col. Wood, Matthew
Fergusson, Sir R. C. Powlett, }ln. W.j.F.
TELLERS—Creevey, Thomas; Bennet, Hon. H. G.

MINORITY
ON MR. nr.stn's MOTION FOR REDUCING £7244, THE
CHARGE OF THE MILITARY COLLEGE AT SANDHURST.
MONDAY, APIV.I. 30.
Birch, Josh. Forbes, C. Phillips, G.
Bennet, Hon. H. G. Grattan, James Rice, G. R.
Bernal, R. Gipps, U. 'Russell,- Lord J.
Beaumont, T. W. Hamilton, Lora A. Smyth, J. H.
Bright 11. Harbord, Hon. E. , Wilson, Thos,
Crompton, S. b Hume Jos. Williams, W.
Denman, Thos. Latouche, R. Wood, Matthew
Evans, Wm.
_Monck, J. B.

TELLER—CoI. Davies.

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE.

PRIVATE AND AUTHENTIC: CORRESPONDENCE.

PARIS, APRIL 29.—There is a merit in resig-
nation, which is unknown to the spirit of Party,
and like the girl who cried pippins, at her latest
moment she still cried pip—pip—pip. So it is
with our liberals here, they are fairly beaten out
of the field ; those who possess superior talents
have wisely withdrawn from the contest; but Ge-
neral DEMARcAY, and a few like him, still cry
pip, pip, pip, to the great amusement of every
body, and if you displease the General, he calls
you out to pop, pop, pop ; happily there is no
more danger in his popping.than his pipping, for
his body and mind are equally paralytic. We
are happy to see the Ministers, enjoy their tri-
umph with moderation, and smile at the efforts
of the two extreme parties. It was a stroke of
policy to bring VITROLLES into the Ministry,
because he dare not now breed fermentation, and
keep up his occult Government; all his argu-
ments are overpowered in the Council of State,
and he is reduced to a non-entity. M. BENOIST
is in the same position. The public voice ac-
cuses these gentlemen of knowing something of
the forgeries invented to ruin Al. DE CAZES,
who, in a dignified silence, consoles himself with
this truth of holy writ, " Magna est veritas et
prevalebit—Great is the truth and will prevail."
His enemies are now ashamed of their inventions,
but they have not honesty enough to avow it to
his MAJESTY ; but who has, we understand, been
informed by the Duke de RICHELIEU and Baron
PASQUIER, that they attach no credit to the ac-
cusation. At present no political news is stir-
ring : 'every mind is occupied on the forthcoming
Fetes, which are to be of the most splendid de-
scription. One melancholy fact is elicited, on
this occasion ; there will be distributed succours
to 44 37,445 indigent families ;" one quarter of
the population of Paris is then in a state of indi-
gence,, for the population is only 750,000. The
Constitationel said this succour was lo be given
to those who wanted bread. The Journal de
Paris, indignant at the assertion, made the mat-
terworse, by declaring that it was only for " in-
digent families who were already inscribed on
the register of the city as such, and received
parochial relief daily!"

FRENCH PAPERS.—[Received last Night.]

" PARIS, APRIL 29.

" The King has sent an invitation to every individual Mem.
ber of the Chamber of Deputies, to attend the fete of the bap.
tism of the Duke de Bourdeaux.

" Letters from Naples of the 9th April announce, that the
Spanish ship of the line Le Guerrier, of-74 guns, and. the frigate
of the same nation, La Perle, of 44 guns, which were in the
bay of Naples, have received orders
.to sail immediately, and
leave the ports of the Two Sicilies.
. " It is currently reported that the Duke of. Wellington will
soon be on the Continent. It is said that he is intrusted with
an important mission to the Government of the Netherlands,
and that he will visit the fortresses of that kingdom.
" If we may believe the Augsburg Gazette, his Majesty the
King of the Netherlands will repair immediately to Vienna, to
have an interview with the Emperor Alexander.
" Great interest has been excited among the politicians of
PariS by the trial of M. Bergasse, a venerable royalist, aged 71,
who had written a pamphlet on the transfer of piiiperty; Which
the government accused of being inflammatory and contrary to
the charter. The jury thought otherwise.
" TIIE FUNDS—ApriI 27, 5 per Cent. Consols., 85f. 70c. ;
Bank Actions, 1547 f. 50c.—April 28, • 5 per Cent. Consols,
82f. 20c. ; Bank Actions, 1547 f. 50c...
‘,‘ TURIN, APRIL 20.

" The news from Nice, Asti, Alba, and other towns, is of
the most satisfactory nature. Everywhere things are put again
on their ancient footing.
"- Letters from Laybach announce that the two Emperors
will remain there a month.

" It appears that the Allied Powers are determined to do
their utmost in order that this Congress may be the last. They
imagine that it will be easy for them to repress for ever the
agitators of Europe.

" The Austrian troops, without any resistance, are spreading
themselves over all the Neapolitan provinces. It is said, how-
ever, that Civitella del Tronto, under the orders of Colonel
Pepe, still obstinately holds out, and rejects all accommodation.
Some hundreds of the most ardent of the Carbonari have there
found yin asylum. •