The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-05 00:00:00

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

The Speaker having left the Chair,
Sir H. HARDINGE rose, for the purpose of
moving the Ordnance Estimates. The voluminous
Report of the Finance Committee, which he now
saw in the hands .of.many. Members, was a sufficient
explanation of the delay that had unavoidably occur-
red, seeingthstt it was considered desirable to have
that Report on the table, in which the Ordnance
department was examined, previous to bringing
forward the Estimates connected with it. He
trusted the Report bad . been long enough'. in .the
hands of Members to enable them to form some
opinion on this subject. The usual course that had
been pursued in introducing these.. Estimates to the
notice of the House was to explain the difference
between those of the current and' the 'preceding
year. This part of his duty 'he should presently .en-
deavour to discharge, and next, in pursuance of the,
instructions received from. his Majesty's Govern-
ment, he should endeavour to explain the intention
of Ministers, with regard to those recommendations
of the Finance: Committee contained irr,the • report,
on the subject of the Ordnance. The Expenditure
of the Ordnance, for 1828 amounted to 1,785,1961.
from which was wise deducted credits given to the
public to the amount of 220,000/., making the total
vote for the Ordnance Department this year,
1,565,1961. Now, according to page 4of the Esti-.
mate, this amount showed a reduction of 82,7761.,
as compared with the expenditure of the preceding
year.. The decrease arose from a saving in the re-
pairs of English, Irish, and Foreign Barracks.—
The savings nosier each particular head were as
follow. In the department of the English Barrack
Repair:, 14,8581..; Irish, 17,7661.; • Foreign,
50,265/. To this was to be added a sum of 2'.,890/.
on account of military stores, making a total, along
with the preceding sums, of 112,7791. However,
this diminution, as far as the repairs of barracks were
concerned, was no actual saving, but only a post-
ponement of the expense of repairs till the next
year. However, the late Master-General of the
Ordnance, being desirous to effect a reduction of
70,000/. or 80,0001. thought that it might be effected,.
with the least inconvenience,. by postponing the're-
pairs of barracks.. . This, then, was no seeing, but
only. a, postponement of expense, as was explained at
page .70 of the Report, and therefore he should
not take credit for it as a saving, more particularly
as inconveniences might result in tropical climates,
when barracks were allovkd to go to decay, which
they would do there rapidly, to our ultimate loss in
two ways; first, from the injury sustained by the
buildings, and, secondly, from the likelihood that
the health of our troops would suffer from an expo-
sure to the climate. With respect_ to the saving in
the military store branch, a saving of 29,8Q04; that
would be in.a great degree permanent, for it related to
the article of iron bedsteads, a supply of which had
not been contracted for in the present year, and,
having been once procured, of course would net be
speedily required. In 1824, he himself pro-
posed, that instead of one wooden bedstead for
every four men, each individual should be provided
with an iron bedstead for his own use. The
proppsition had been agreedtc, he was happy to say,
,with equal advantage to the comfort of the men and
:public economy. The effective charge, of the Ord-
nance Branch for 1826, exclusive of sea Service, was
841,7714 In 1815, the last year of the war, the
effective charge of the Ordnance Department, exclu-
sive of the sea service, amounted to 3,835,4251: So
that when we compared the expenditure Ode cur-
, rent year with that of 1815, it appeared that, in this
dep;3e'tment, reduction. had been effeeZed of nearly.
three millions sterling, being more than three-fourths
of the entire since the. close of the war.. It should
also be remarked, that in this department the ex-
penditure of 1828 was 201,0001.. Jest than in
low) ; and it appeared that a million, sterling had
been saved in the last nine years, since 1820, the
Ordnance. Branch alone, But if we took into ac-
count the Departments consolidated with, the Ord.
;mice, , the diminution would • appear still greater,
for in 1820, the expenditure was 2,220,149/. • in 1828,
.1,785,096 L; makings reduction of 434,951ibet ween
the expenditure of 1820 and 1828.: The red.uction, then,
effected since 1820,. might rte taken in round num?
hers at 435,0001. As a measure of ectincny:.then,
the consolidation that had taken place.iti this De,
partmeets was proved to be 'effectual. , The 007_
nonce Department was the-greet depot of military
Stores. The expense of this Department desiendea
upon the wants of other Departments; and InereaS•
ed expense had taken place by reason of the ei4ed-
sion of .our eClonies, our fleets, and aiuut s Of all
D'epartments, ther•
mrunitnce was
,that
AC sl(Test growth, and if awe iinpured or put,
. the Most difficult to reorgenise:
the ave._
_Piga expense, of the !eat • five years had been
1,940We-7-2,009;00a of old stores, savings, rents,
&c, were credited to the public since 1817, in dimi,
nution of the .vates, With respect to the military
part Ordnance, he was ready to say, that in
his op°ifultehl: it hid been reduced as law as it could—
a fact satisfactorily proved, by the evidence taken
before the Finance Committee. The proportion of
Artillery in the field, to the number of the Army,
was less in the British than in any Continental ser-
vice; it had onegun to every 500 men—the French
One to every 30P-7—and so on with respect to the
:troops (?f.. . and
...other States. In time of
war, we had one artillery man to every nine soldiers

of the Line: and •in peace the number had been
reduced, till the proportion was, one artilleryman to
every fourteen of tilt- these circum-
stances it would appear possible reduc-
tion had been made. in this part of Our force;
and it would be eqnally, evident. that the Civil
Department had been in like manner reduced.
In the Civil Departments transferred to the Ord-
nance, he reduction amounted to 174 clerks, and
The salary saved thereby to 47,000/. With regard to
the stations and establishments kept np by the
Ordnance, it appeared from the 97th page of the
Report that the ,nsonher of stations did not exceed
by, more than two.or three, those ltept up in 1792.
This was exclusively- of Ireland and the Colonies,
the stations in which were, at that time under sepa-
rate heads of eXpenditure. He next game to the Mili-
tary Superanntrations-=-be here t.ound that the non-
effective of the Artillery was at the highest in 1820,
when the expense amounted to :333,5844 which in
182$, was 306,4831.; making a reduction in round.
numbers of about 30,000/. in this branch,-since the
former period. As far as he could form an opinion,
the superannuations had pow reached theirmaximuna;
for, according to the Pension List, the number of
pensioners, in 1820, was 9,984; in 1828, they
,were
,11,269, making an increase in nine years of peace of
1,28.51. The deaths of the Pension List in the last
five years were 970, forming an average of 174
.annually. The number of men pensioned frOm the
-Regiments of Artillery averaged 180 ; consequently,
the decrease was 14 a-year.. The increase arose
:from the number of registered men put on the Pen-
-lion. List. , The discharged . registered men put
on that list, after completing a period of four-
teen and twenty-one years' service, had been the
cause-of the -increase of pensioners exceeding the
deaths, but the introduction'of these registered men
would cease in 1832.- In civil;superannuutions the
Ordnance Department had already past its_ maxi-
mum, which occurred,in 1822, when the expendil
ture on that Account was 41,5424, while the average
expense of the last four years was only 45,0001.,
making a decrease of 6,.500/.- since 1822. He next
came to the Barrack Department. In the whole of
England'and Ireland, the accommodation for troops
.in time of war was for 261,000 men—in peace it
was only necessary to accommodate 89,000—mak-
Ing,a reduction of 170,000. By the. reduction in
the Fish Barrack Department, 38,0004 a year was
saved, and he thought that the Irish Barracks had
:been put on a very excellent footing.. He new ap-
proached a part of the subject which he contem-
plated with considerable -apprehension. Lie al-
luded to: some of the representations made by
the Finance. Committee with respect .to .cer-
tain reductions in the Ordnance Department.
He was.instructed by-his Majesty's Government to
say,- that the recommendation of the Committee
would be assented to us far as concerned the redu6,

tions of the clerks, of the Ordnance, and of the Sur-
veyor-General, but-Miniaters,were unable to concur
in the proposition to.abolish the office of Lieutenant-
. General of the Ordnance. The salary of that officer
was in 1796, including . allowances of various sorts,
in time of peace, 1,192/. but it was raised during the
war, and wasnow 1,567/. The other recommenda-
tions of the Committee had-been received by the
responsible advisers of- the CIOWII. With respect
to the reductions suggested. in the salaries of the
officers, the Surveyor-General at present received a
salary of :1,8874 a-year. In 1811' the Commission-
ers of Military Inquiry recommended that it be re-
duced to 1,2001. and the Committee now recommend-
ed that it Should be .fixed. it 1,5004 a year, and fur-
ther reduced to 1,2004 a year on the next vacancy.
He was no longer connected with the Ordnance
Department,' but he begged to say that emoluments.
of the Clerk of the Ordnance were in -war AS fol-
low :—Salary, 8611.—fees, 1,515/.—making eclear
income of 2,376/. Since the peace, the sa-
lary and emoluments were as follow :---the for-
mer 6651.—the latter '13394--making an average
of 1,504/. in three' years of peace. Now, if. they
took a mean term 'between the'paytOent in war and
peace, 2,376/. and 1,5044, it would be 1,9451. in
1824, Government, at the suggestion: of an Hon.
Member opposite, recommended that the Clerk of
the 'Ordnance should receive a - salary of 1,8371.
which was the amount charged in the , year's Esti-
mates. The Finance Committee now propose to
reduce' the salary to 1,200/. per anntirm. It should
be recollected, that the Clerk of the Ordnance was
obliged, ex ritiltio, to be in the House of Commons,
and that he had many and serious` daties to perform.
This he knew from experience. lie was' satisfied
that the. members of the Ordnance Department whp
remained would cheerfully submit to the recommen-
dations of the Committee, sanctioned by Govern-•
ment, as far as it concerned pecuniary sacrifice. At
the same time, coupling the reductions proposed by.
the ConiMittee in this departMent with'the praises,
which they had bestowed on its general management
and conduct, he did say he thought they had been a -
little severe on some of the most efficient officers of
the Department, whom, at the same time that they
praised them, they proposed to curtail of one-third
of their salaries. However, if the financial state of
the country made such reductions necessary, he was
far from saying that they should be refused. There
was another point in the recommendation of the Fi.
nanee ComMittee which was advanced on different
grounds. It required not the sacrifice of the salaries
of individuals, but of an office most essential to
the well...being of the service. Therefate, whilst.
the Government felt no reluctance to do all in its
power to icdoce the salaries of the several officers,
in this case, where the sacrifice to the public service ,
would be great, the Gm ernment had thought it
their duty to resist the recomraeodations of the
Finance Committee; 'Hp alluded. to the, . office of .
Lieut.-General of the Ordnance. He hoped to
j show that the grounds upon which the Comniittee
recommended the abolition of that office were erro-
neous. The first ground was, that the Commis-
sioners of Military Inquiry in 1811 had come to a
similar conclusion. The Commissioners say in
their report—`r Front the information given to us
respecting- the actual performance, of, any distinct
duties by the Lieut.-General of Ordnance, we
incline to the belief that this appOintment was not
essential to the constitution of the department,
especially if it were to be
_understood thatthe
tioo of the Master-General should not be withdrawn
from the duties of his offide by other appointments."
The Finanee ComMittee of 1828 concur" in this
opinion, and, adverting to' the fact that the Lieut.-
General ;has been absent front gnglapct At different
times, they. are of opittian that during the peace the
office of Lieutenant-General may be dispensed with,
and the salary saved. to the public. NoW he (Sir
H. Hardinge) found that the reasons on which the

Finance. cOnimittee founded their recommendation
were the. Report of the Commissioners .of Mili-
tary Inquiry; and also the fact a the Lieutenant-
.General.'s absence front .- this country during
peace. 40 would show that the views of Lord
,Cliatham were different from the 'sentiments. ex-
Tressed in. the report.. That Noble Lord had de-
dared on his oath, Whew examined before the Corn-
*mitsioners, that
.be was.astonished that it could ergo
into the, head of any man that the offieo of Lieut.-
-General of the Ordnance Was unnecowary. 'He (Sir
H H.). would even 'show that the Report of the
Comm issiOneis. of .Military Inquiry, in '.l 81 1; dif. I
*feted essentially*, as to, what oughtlo. be the consti-
'wool, awe .toara of . Ordnaw. from thiA..Fipance .1
Commlitec,'l 'The- Commissioners proposed that
" the Voard of Ordnunceilike the -Boards of Athiti- I
rally and Treasury, be constituted by one general
-
commission, the members of-it being styled ' Corn-
tesraatrioene,xte that
tsetdhe b yt he
• missioners of the Board of Ordnance,' and that the
Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, so long as it
may be deemed expedient to retain such officer, be:
placed at the bead of it, and that the powers and
duties of the Board, subject to the Master Geneittl's
iisterference,
.
withthe sameth al
a
present B our, be
signa-
ture of each of the members be made of equi4 vali-
dity in,authenticating instruments and other orders ;
and that as the four junior members of the, new
Board will cease to have any branch of business com-
mitted to their individual and special management,
the patronage of tile offices at the Tower. hitherto