The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-31 00:00:00

satisfactorily carried out in Ireland? Had they not seen that
it would net be deemed a meastire of real benefit to the Ro-
man Catholic people of Ireland? That it should have the sup-
port of the Protestant people of Ireland would appear to him
a most unnatural proceeding. To think that those who had
opposed the present National System of education, should
support this proposition, would be a thing he could not be-
lieve. He had no doubt it would be looked upon as an evil
of far greater importance to Ireland than even the Maynooth
Bill. These were his reasons for taking the course he
had in regard to this measure—a course which he
had felt it his imperative duty to pursue. He would not weary
Are House with any further observations, and in the few he
had offered he hoped he had endeavoured to be as calm as
the nature of the subject permitted.—(Hear, hear.) If he
could consistently support this measure he would; but he could
not help saying that he felt justified in his opposition by all that
he had heard in that House upon the subject, as well as by the
expressions of the leader of the Irish people in reference to it,
and in which he, as well as the Protestant people of England,
fully concurred. These expressions were to this effect, that a
system of education should not be enforced unless it bad the
father's sanction and the mother's blessing—(Hear, hear)
—that religion should be the basis of all education, and if it
were not it would corrupt more than it would en-
lighten. The same authority proposed a scheme
of education which he (Lord John Manners) con-
sidered far preferable to the Government Bill, and that
was, to have separate colleges for the Roman Catholics, the
Protestants, and the Presbyterians; and as for Trinity Col-
lege—and here let him request the attention of the Right Hon.
Member for Dungarvon—as for Trinity College, he could see
no reason for any change in that. Now, that was the plan
which he (Lord Manners) would wish to see carried into
law, and if it were, all objections of a religious nature would
be obviated ; but if they separated secular from religious edu-
cation, it would he worse than useless, and prove not a blessing
but a curse. It would be a measure which future statesmen
would tremble at, and future ages deplore. He would beg to
move the Bill be read a second time that day six months.
Lord ADAIR seconded the motion.
Mr. ROSS said, he cordially approved of the measure pro-
prosed by the Government, and he could not see upon what
grounds the Noble Lord opposite assumed that it would prove
a curse instead of a blessing. In approving of this measure lie
(Mr. Ross) could not shut out from his mind the fact that up to
this time it had always been the practice in Ireland to set one
day of the week apart for religious instruction in all the schools,
and he had yet heard no reason why that should not be continued.
He believed that Mr. O'Connell did not represent the Irish
people.--( Hear, hear.) He believed that he had greatly ex-
aggerated matters, and he felt assured that the Roman
Catholics of Ireland viewed this measure,:not with dislike, but
approbation. When Mr. O'Connell characterised the Bill as
iniquitous, and that education apart from religion had led to
crime in France, he answered by a denial of the fact. He
asserted that where education had existed crime had diminished.
He called upon the Government, in conclusion, not to give
way to the clamour that had been raised against the measure
in Ireland. Cheers. )
Lord ADAIR thought it would be better to establish
Catholic Colleges in the south of Ireland. He was opposed to
the measure altogether, and one of the material grounds of
that objection was that it gave to the Minister of the day the
power of the appointment of the professors.
Lord SANDON could not think that voting for the second
reading of the Bill pledged any Hon. Member to adopt its
details. He was anxious to see the Bill go into Committee, in
order that such alterations might be made in it as were re-
quired. He believed that it was a measure in the right path
fur the future legislation of the people of Ireland.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who spoke in so low a tone of
voice as to render it difficult to bear him at all, said that he
was one of those who thought that no personal question of re-
ligious feeling or belief ought to be discussed in that House.
His Noble Friend had truly stated, that under the
present circumstances of Ireland it was impossible,
with the least prospect of success, to propound a mea-
sure generally acceptable to the people of that
country for the endowment by the State of the clergy of a
portion of the people. He could well understand a scheme
such as that which had been suggested by his Noble Friend the
Member for Newark, who advocated a scheme of separate edu-
cation for the different sects prevailing in Ireland. He could
understand founding a Roman Catholic College in the South
of Ireland, and he could understand founding a separate College
for the Presbyterians in the North of Ireland, but, for his own
part, he for one very much feared that, so far from removing
religious differences, no scheme could be propounded more
certain to produce the effect of perpetuating those differences.
The Noble Lord the Member for Newark had referred to the
proviso at the end of clause one, which had reference to the
formation of the proposed colleges. Now, the pi inciple which
that proviso went was that upon which the University of Lon-
don had been established. Considering the great diffi-
culty which attended this question, it was absolutely
necessary that they should be perfectly explicit upon it.
It was the intention of her Majesty's Government, in pro-
posing these colleges, that no religious tests should be applied
either to officials or to students. There was no novelty in this,
none whatever. Let them look to Scotland, a country respect-
ing which no disrespect for religion could be alleged. There
was no country in the world where religion was mere venerated.
In the colleges of that country no religious tests of any kind
were imposed. Attendance at Divine worship was not re-
quired, nor upon theological lectures; and yet the parents and
guardians of Scotland sent their sons and young men to the
colleges of Edinburgh and Glasgow, perfectly satisfied with the
system that was pursued. Two Noble Lords who sat opposite
would bear testimony to this. What then was the course pur-
sued at Oxford? When he was a member of that University,
a student matriculating there was not examined as to
what he knew ( Hear, hear) but he was called
upon to subscribe to what he believed. He was bound to say
that for the two years and a half that he was a member of
Christ Church, Oxford, he never was called upon to attend any
lecture on theology or on divinity. He never received any re-
ligious instruction whatever, and he did believe that through-
out the whole time that he was at the University he never
heard one sermon.—( Laughter.) The Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Newark himself must know that this was a common
thing, although he (Sir James Graham) did not know what
the taste of the Noble Lord was when he was at college.
The effect of this would be an interference with the election of
the professors. Something of the same kind had occurred with
respect to the appropriation of the regium donum, and the
appointment of the professors at Belfast. There were at that,
place a congregation of Unitarian Presbyterians and of Or-
thodox Presbyterians, and in that case there had been felt to
be a necessity for the appointment of two professors. If he
were to follow the same plan. there would have to be a profes-
sor for philosophy, theology, and anatomy, of different opi-
nions; and then he wonid have to meet the difficulty by the
appointment of three professors of divinity, to obviate the in-
convenience. Now he thought that the introduction of such
professors would destroy the very utility at which
these academic institutions aimed. There ought to
be every care taken that parents and guardians
sbould have the power of securing the principles of those in
whom they were so deeply interested, for he believed that no
greater evil could occur than that the spirit of proselytism
should be let loose. It had always been an opinion of his that
great injury would arise from the alienation of the Irish
people from their national religion, for he feared that it would
only end in that infidelity which was worse than any other evil.
The supervision of the parents and guardians would be one
means of security, and the power of removal which was held
by the Crown, or, as it was, in fact, the removal under the ad-
vice of responsible Ministers, who held seats in that House,
would be a complete guarantee that these means of education
would not be perverted. The visitorial power of the Crown
could not, he believed, by the prerogative, be delegated to any
one but the Keeper of the Great Seal, unless it were by statute.
This facility was liable to abuse. According to the rules
which he believed were observed in Trinity College, he be-
lieved that no attendance was compulsory on the Divinity Lec-
tures, and he thought that some provision ought to be made
for religious instruction; he therefore intended that oppor-
tunities should be allowed for the residence of teachers within
the colleges, though he would not provide halls or other facili-
ties for the teaching of any particular theological opinions.
There were several Gentlemen opposite who received their early
education at Trinity College, and, from their principles
and appearance in that House, he felt assured that
no test of religion bad been enforced on entering the college, or
on taking the honours which the college conferred. He would
now refer to the question of the professors chairs. A memo-
rial had been presented, requesting that certain chairs should
be held by Roman Catholics. The first chair referred to, was
that of history. He saw no reason why there should be any
restriction or exclusion, and, therefore, he should not agree to
any departure from the principle of the Bill. The next chair
was that of moral philosophy and metaphysics. He saw
no reason why any rdvantage should be given to any particular
creed. The same rule applied to logic and geology ; he did
did not conceive that any rule of the kind should be permitted.
Then came the question about the removal of professors. He
considered it the best to place the power of removal in the
hands of a responsible Government, not under the authority
of any other power. While the Government had the
power of removals, they had no objection to allow
a visitorial power, vested in parties in whom con-
fidence could be placed.—(Hear.) While they objected to
favouring any religious party in the appointment of the pro-
fessors, they had no objection to allow halls and lecture-rooms
for the use of lectures, providing parties were found who would
endow them for the purposes of religious instruction. To that
extent he had no objection to go, and that in Committee pro-
visinn should be made to that effect. He did not think it neces-
sary to add more at present, as he had referred to the leading
objections urged against the measure. Great advances had been
made in the education of the lower classes of Ireland within
the last few years, attributable to the influence of that excellent
establishment, the National System of Education. Great
social and educational progress had been made, and the pre-
sent measure was only an extension of that plan. The Hon. Mem-
ber for the University of Dublin had objected to that system,
but against his objection he ( Sir J. Graham) could place the
authority of the Hon. Member for Belfast, who had stated that,
so far from evil having resulted from that system, it had been
of the greatest benefit to the people of that country. The
children of the National Schools of Ireland, if placed in con-
trast with the National Schools of this country, would appear
in a very advantage ous position. The best possible effects had
been produced upon the poor of that country by the system, and
the present measure was only to extend to the upper classes
what had been already extended to them.—( Hear, hear.)
This measure would be found the only measure calculated to
satisfy the claims of Ireland as regarded education, and was
attended with such principles as would realise the most happy
results.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. ROCHE said it was incumbent on him to join with the
Noble Lord the Member for Newark to oppose the second
reading of the Bill. it would be unnecessary for him to say
that the proposed measure of education was a difficult subject
for any Irish Member to deal with. He would be ready to give
his assent to a measure for what was called a mixed
question of education. He would go as far as any man in the
desire to spread proper notions of religion and education among
the people. He considered that religion should be a main ques-
tion in carrying out any mixed system of education. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had said you must leave to us the ap-
pointment of the professors, because I am determined there
shall be nothing savouring of proselytism introduced into these
colleges. I will not permit any professor to remain in office
who endeavours to proselyte any of the pupils under
his care. The Right Honourable Baronet did not
understand what was very weil apprehended in Ireland
that he had fixed the terms of his holding there. He contended
that if the Right Hon. Gentleman carried out his own question
he would be carrying out his own proselytism. They required
in Ireland that those professors should not be the mere
nominees of the English Government. They ought to be re-
sponsible to public opinion in Ireland, and not to any Govern-
ment in England—tube exposed to the prejudices and the ideas
of the Government of the day. Ile would be most anxious to
lend his assistance to the support and spread of
information and education in Ireland, but he was
determined that there should not be any means 'of poisoning
the fountain from whence the youth of Ireland drew their
first draughts of knowledge.—(bear, hear.) Ile would con-
tend that the power sbould not rest with the Ministry to dismiss
a man because he should not meet their views on an abstract
question of politics. He was not prepared to say that people
in Ireland were proof against a bribe, especially when it was
offered in the shape of 5001. or 8001. a year.—(Hear,
hear.) They might be tempted, for they were not
proof against temptation, any more than general human nature.
If you give us these colleges the professors must be as inde-
pendent as the professors of Oxford and Cambridge Ur&
versities were ;
dependent, then, he would say, let the grant be refused alto-
and if they are not to be as unfettered and in-
gether, and, in doing so, nothing more than a curse would be
withheld. He would rather have a system of education sepa-