The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-21 00:00:00

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not deal with unless by
.abating it. He was convinced Whether the present Government ,had done so,
that there would be no peace in Ireland without the re= he thought there could not be much- doubt
moval of the Church Establishment. The Right:Hon. about it. The union had been proposed as' a
1
Gentleman 'opposite said . that they ehould cherish it as remedy for the grievances of Ireland. Had it answered,
the apple of their eye) but he, would say, in Scriptural ' that purpose ? And if it had not, was there much Wife
language, " If. thine - eye offend thee, pluck it out." culty in considering why it had failed ? Everything
—(Cheers and laughter.) That was the mode-in which had been tried in goieennig Ireland by good faith and
they should deal -with the Irish. Church. He •weuld justice. The.union had not been accomplished in a man-
make pace tie this way-that no more bishops and nor to . afford... satisfaction to the people. The
deans shoidd be created, and that, upon the death of most eminent patriots of the time at which . the,
every Irish bishop, a regiment should, be withdrawn,- union was carried denouneed the measure as having
and a battalion upon the death of every dean.—(Much been accomplished by fraud and by profligate, means.
;laughter and cheering.) Theres,vould be then a simul- Ireland had not received her fair share of the bargain---?
taneous dithinution in the, army and the Church, which Catholic Emancipation bad not been granted until
he had no deubt would contribute much to the' pacifica.: '2O years after the union. It was not conceded until it
,tion of Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Hon.' and Learned could no longer be., withheld with safety—emancipation;
Solicitor-General, in his speech last night, said that like the union, was, to a great extent, nominal—the value
there was a great deal of difference between fundamental' of the Emancipation Act consisted in its being practically
laws-.and other laws: That he considered to be a most carried mit. If the . Roman Catholics were not
dangerous doctrine. One of the grounds of their con-' 'admitted 'to a full anticipation .in • the privi-
stitutional security was that there was no limit in leges. and honours which the law conferred, upon.
'changing the laws of the Constitution. They had them, the Emancipation Bill was a dead letter.
the power, if they pleased, with the concurrence Both should be - carried out in perfect good faith.
of the Aree branches of the Legislature, of turning the In consequence of this Ireland, instead, of being a happy
monarchy into a republic.—(Hear.) That was their adjunct to England, had been a constant source of eke
great safeguard, and when the nation wished :for a greatest anxiety and trouble to her, and .had been her-
change they would not be prevented from making it by self in a state of perpetual uneasiness.. It.was most ma-
any Act of Parliament which the Solicitor-General might terial. considering the period. which had passed by, that
consider fundamental. The real gr.einil upon which he they should take a serious review of what were lie com-
•supported the motion was not owing to any misconduct 'plaints which had been urged by the Trish people, and
in _administration on the part of her Majesty's Go-- what were the causes which kept her in that condition,
vernment, but because, in spite of the good intentions of and the remedies which they proposed to apply to efifs of
the . Government—in spite of their carrying them out such long continnance..lreland had been under the manage-
fairly, and according to the spirit and principle of the ment of the political party
,who now held, the reins of
law,, he saw. a state of things established in Ireland Government for a very king period, and what she was now
which this House ought not to sanction ; and his second was the result of their management. They had a short-
reason was, that he was convinced the measures which exception during the time of, the Whigs—WV
• the Government proposed were too trifling to produce Honourable Gentlemen opposite, having this long
any benefical effect, because there was "no suns at the experience in ' the treatment of Ireland, „ ought
end of them"—(Cheers)--and he considered their de- they . not to have been able to devise some
termination of maintaining the protestant Church in Ire- means to remedy the ills of the country? When
land was tantamount to a permanent war against the the Whigs were in power, and likely
,to leave office, the
Irish people. ' Right Hon. Baronet acknowledged that Ireland would
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he quite agreed with be the great difficulty with which he'would have to con-
the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken, that Hon. Gen- tend. Full time and consideration had been bestowed
tlemen opposite had , made no progress in their attack upon the state of Ireland ; and the present Govern Meet
upon her Majesty's Government, and he believed that therefore were expected to. be well prepared to legislate
his
,opinion would be sympathised in by the country in the manner which the state of Ireland required.- Well,
at large.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) It had been his two years had passed, and nothing had been &Me..
lot, sinoe he had -been . in Parliament, sometimes, While in opposition; the Tory party was most active
but always ' with reluctance, to vote against
,in their exertions.to frustrate all attempts' on the pait of
ker Majesty's Government ; but never did he retnem- the Whigs to ameliorate the condition of Ireland. ',- It,
ber to have given a vote more sincerely in their favour had been a' * compleint against, the Whigs that
than he would now give in approval.of the fairness and they done so little for Ireland whilst they were .in
wisdom with which they bad conducted the recent af- power. NoW he Would Challenge any one to show that
fairs in Ireland.---;-(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) they had power to do_ more than what they did. That
He did. not -care how long that debate might interrupt their most anxious wish was to act upon the principles
the business of the House, for he believed that the longer which the Noble Lord avowed, and on the policy which
it continued the stronger would be the. position which the he announced-in his speech, rio one could deny. They
Government would occupy in the opinion of this country. had, been taunted because of withdrawing the appropria- '
•,--(Hear, hear from the` Ministerial benches.)The Right tion clause, but lie would, ask, was it withdrawn as a.,
Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinbergh had alluded matter of choice on the part of the Whigi, or was
to the question of the Irish Chuich. As an individual it WithdraWn because they-.-found they were unable
he would he content to limit the tinration Of the Irish to Carry it, as they had been"alse unable le carry many
Cherch,.te. ,the period when:. Hon. :Gentlemen:en .the other objecte, by the. force of the' Opposition? . During .
Other side Of the genie had agreed what they Would do 'that period, "considering what-"hadbeen
,the course pur-
.Withit.L-(taiiglitir.) Some Honourable Members ie- sued by the Opposition, the Whigs had shown the same
tended to transfer it to another party, others were for feeling towards Ireland which they had manifested
cutting it in two ; some were for paring it doWn, others during the many years of her sorrow, agitation, and -
for cutting it up.—(Laughter.) One Hon. Member pro-. distress. The first reasonable ground for the security
posed, that at the demise of every bishop, they should of any country was general confidence in the Govern-
remove a regiment, and of every dean, a battalion.— inent ; and could the Irish nation feel the slightest con-
(Laughter.) Onejlon. Gentleman had asked 'her Ma- fidence in the present' Administration? 'The reverse was
jesty's Government to look, at the -question at large,, the case. , What .were the taunts which were loudest
and in order to do so he most cautiously
'against the Whigs when in power, .but that they were
avoided entering into any detail himself.—(Hear, hear.) mating too many concessions to the Irish people? The
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, cry of Hon. Gentlemen opposite was that concession
stated certain grounds on which he said the Established had reached its utmost limits—(Hear, and cheers).—
Church ought not to be rested. It ought riot to be and that no further concessions could 'be granted with.:
rested, he said, on quotations from Hansard, from old safety to the interests of the Established Chutch, or of.
books, or from Acts of Parliament. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) the English nation. There was one thing which he con --
quite agreed that unless they could 'make out a stronger sidered most ettrordinary, and that was the assertion
case for the Established Church in Ireland than could be that the Whig Government had not done all they. ought
made from what Roman Catholic Bishops had said, to have done for Ireland, At least two of its most ta-
they "could not go to sea in such a boat. It was not ac- lented Members had alienated themselves ' from.
cording to the spirit of our legislation to exact oaths the- party to which they were Originally attached;
from any class of , persons ; and we had no knowledge merely because the then Whig Government -were .
of any ecclesiastical discipline by which • Dr. Doyle, or favourable to Ireland. And, unfortuhately for Ire,
any other Roman Catholic Bishop, was able in
-this land, the only two Members of the late :Whig Achniiiii- -
matter to bind his successor.—(Hear, hear, from the' Op- tration, who had been admitted into the present'Ob-'
position.) Unless they could put the case of the Church vernment, were those two who had displayed the
of Ireland upon higher grounds, they would make out a most inveterate hatred against that couritrY. . When the
very bad case indeed. The' question' was, what should present Government was first formed, great . anxiety,.
they substitute for the Church if they destroyed it, and prevailed to know how the Right Hen. Baronet weeld•
could they hope to 'introduce a better state of things? act towards Ireland ; and what had been 'done
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) had entered during -the two years he held office; and what' was the.
into a leng, historicaltlisquisiiion concerning Ireland, and present state of Ireland ? Why Ireland continues, to
he said that for 250 yeers the Church of Ireland had not to be as she had been before, upon the very brink Of a
fulfilled its mission. Now he protested strongly' against civil war; and were they to be told after this acknoW-
the injustice of resting the case of the Irish Church on ledgment, that the Noble Lord was wrong in asking the
the period of 250 years; they must go back to the fifth cen- Hodge to.review the 'affairs of that country, and the
tury—the introduction of Christianity into that country. policy which had been acted on, and which was likely to
Let them look also at the bearing of the middle of the 12th continue with respect to the government of that'country?
century upon the destinies of Ireland, when all the ills ----(Hear, and cheers.) It had been said that this motion
of Ireland, inherent dissensions, lawless passions, lust of had been brought forward at a wrong time; but in
unjust and ecclesiastical tyranny, combined together to. answer to that, he should say that any one who had the ,
produce, in unhappy union, the bull of Adriani the in- slightest -knowledge of the popular history of. Ireland
vasion of Henry, the landing of Stronghow,' end the would acknowlege ' that there never yet was an instance
subjugation of Ireland..--(Hear, hear.) He would next when a motion, such as the present, was brought' before
speak 'on a subject which he considered had been the House, that it was. not called ill-timed. That was
almost untouched by any Hon. Gentleman on that side the common and constant mode in which such motions
who bad yet spoken in the course of the debate. He were met. Was Ireland in a state now that allowed them
meant' the real, practical, every-day grievances, to ' choose their own time ?—(Heir, hear, and
sorrows, and deprivations of the poorer classes cheers.) Were they to wait until the stream had passed
of the Irish . people—and in speaking of the poor by? Did they not knoWlreland was only in the same state
of Ireland, ho begged to be understood 'as Alluding that she had been for years before, and that there was
to the frieze coats—not to the men of broad cloth, not the slightest prospect of a cessation of, those evils ?2
The first of those evils to which he would call The' time to demand an investigation was when the
attention, and which he had witnessed in his part of Ire- 'country was in such a state of agitation as it was now.
land—Clare and Limerick—Was the poor-law. This evil 1 The motion was a most constitutional and intelligible
consisted in the inequality of the rate as levied upon the one.—(Cheers.) The intent of the motion was ,to ask
poor collier and the consequent 'difficulty of collecting this House, and to ask the country, if the policy pursued
it. If one half the attention had been paid to the Irish by the
_present .Government towards Ireland was up-.
poor-law which had been best Owed upon the Arins Bill proved of. He would not .attempt to deny that this
—(Cheers from the Opposition)— by Hon. Gentlemen motion implied censure upon the Government. He was
on the Opposition side of the House—(Derisive cheers aware that the 'motion would be loat'by a large mejerity,
from 'the Ministerial benches)—much good-would hive but Still he felt Sere it was. the. duty of the Noble Lord
been effected. The next grievance of - Ireland was the to bring conviction to Ireland, that her wants; and, even
state of the medical charities "theee. That was a sub- if in error, her errors, had teen respectfully treated by
ject which demanded their most earnest and immediate Parliament, and that the state of the country shoeld not
consideration.' The third evil was the progress of the be passed Over in silence, but that the House should
r
Board of Palk Works. which he was sorry to say had, consider and pronounce an 'opinion upon. the matter.
been curtailed; and lastly, the exactions under the name Had they governed Ireland in such a manner as to se-
of tolls, to which the peasantry were subjected in cure peace?. Was the fault with Ireland or with the
bringing their commodities to market, cloSed the list Government 7 If :it.. was her fault,, was the Govern-
of grievances which the poor of Ireland had to endure ment capable of applying any means to correct the fault? .
Those were evils which, from kis own experience, 'he - How long would they require to do so ? What,period
knew to press heavily upon' the frieze coats of lieland. of time was supposed to furnish sufficient evidence as to
As for the miserable Whigs, the peasantry of Ireland the fitness or unfitness Of. any given course of policy?
cared nothing for them. • The only way in which they Could they for one moment believe that past experience
(the Whigs) .had 'interested the poor of Ireland, was did not show. the cause which bad produced the present
by letting convicts out of prison, when they were in diseontent? Did that course of policy which had so long
office. Their Lord Lieutenant had inflicted more mis • failed hitherto, present any prospect of answering better
chief on that country than :any Other individual that had for the future ? He apprehended that there was no
ever held office there.—(Marked signs of disapprobation
_ground whatever for it. The Government said, as all
from the Opposition, which were accompanied by groans. persons said„ that the Irish Church, was at the bottent
The Marquis of Normanby was sitting at the time on of the unhappiness under which Ireland suffered. Well,
the benches appropriated to Members of . the Haase of then why did they not propose a remedy--,some-
Lords.) -The conduct of that Viceroy showed that his thing less than the disease itself ? They had been
sole object was to court a ridiculous, ostentatious, and trying, various remedies for ;the Irish Church. It had .
fleeting popularity.—(Groies from the Opposition.) been allowed to. be' an evil, and if it were allowed to
He had never known any man act so badly—so profli- continue how could they expect that remedies addressed
gately.-(Leatd cries of" Oh; oh,"" from the Opposition.) to Other matters, which wholly passed . by. the
Yes, but the best comment upon the policy of Lord Nor- . Irish Church—how did they expect that peace
manby, was the policy' pursued. by his successor Lord would result : from measures that had so long failed It
Fortescue. Did he follow his example?—(Loud cries of , With the present condition of Ireland, could .they be led
" Question, question.") Hon. Members might cry -cities- to suppose that measures which had hitherto failed,
tion, hut What was the question ?' The Noble Lord, the 'without any alteration of the circumstances, would be
Member for London, might fancy, at the commencement more successful for-the future ? There was no ground
of the debate, that he was forwarding the interests of his for this. He said, therefore, that the present Gevern-
party, but he thought that the' opinions of the Noble meat were called_ upon to state how they proposed to
Lord'must 'now be changed—not merely ' from . meet those difficulties. lie, for one, thought that the
the ' sentiments expressed by Members on that side union between the two countries was necessary for the
of the House, but from the speeches made by his. prosperity of both.
,The Government had declared that
awn supporters. The' W hig ranks were.. corn- they were ready for civil war rather than resign that.
pletely divided -and broken; they could' unite ,If this was the case lie would ask how long they would
upon nothing, and the only question they leaped to agree Iso maintain it ? What 'Period of time did they suppose
upon was Ireland ; and if the Tories . were Wined out I would Ireland remain in that condition? What period
of office what could be expected frOm a Whig Govern- of ' time did they suppose that the Christian ; in-
ment ? Where were their' principles? 'Where was habitants of ,Great .Britain would continue such a civil
their 'object? He professed he could see none. ! The war ? Ireland said, "Give-
.us our.due share of influence
Anti-Corn-law Leigue—the Repealers—the Radicals— in the Government. Do not. keep the Establishment ,in
all these had principles and objects; big You wretched the condition in which it now is, so wholly unsuited to
Whigs4attering and coquetting, and.gaiiing nothing for the object of an Establishment. If you tell us that you
yourselves but eontempt—,-,yeu are objects of public deri- , cannot give us this—if you say that there are circum-
sion.—(Laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) stances in the union which prevent you from granting
,Y9u are like certain public characters who survive their us our just demands, Ireland has a right to-demand the
rePutations.—(Renewed laughter.) Mr. O'Connell had repeal of ,the union." . The union ought no longer to
told thousands of the Irish people that-the British Par- exist than for the, happiness and prosperity of both:
'fitment they could not trust. He, ' (Mr. O'Brien) Ireland said this country had professed to„forni a part,
would re-echo that 'sentiment, and if the Hon. nership,-----" You
.monopolise all the power—you exclude
Member for Cork inclined to quote the opinions of so us from all interference in the management of our concerns.
humble an individual- as.. himself,' he was at perfect We' call upon you to do us justice—to give us a due
liberty to elo So: Mr. O'Connell had told the Irish peo- share.of authority—lD make the partnership a source of
pie to trust to Theniselveithat
;sentiment, too, he (Mr, happiness and prosperity to us. You refuse to do this;
O'l3rien)echoed. They might destroy the Church—they and say, Rather than dissolve the partnership, you are
Might overthrow the institutions of the country—but ready for civil war," He would defy any man to enter,
'they would be followed by a law stronger, wider, and more ,on the contemplation of this subject. and. come to the
enduring than all the- laws.of men—a law which would conclusion that civil war would last long -under such
tell the people of Ireland—and every people on th e circumstances. The English nation was distinguished
earth, that it was with barons as with individuals, that, for its justice and its religion. What would be the
prosperity and happiness could be'conferrad by no law, condition of :England in the eyes, of Europe during tho
Happiness Could not 'be - forced. upon the people.' The 'continuance of a civil war arising out of claims such as'
people .of every rank and class must combine to teach those urged by 'lreland. Were.these matters fit to be
and practise ordee—to inculcate obedience to the laws, considered? Let them remember that things had °C
.-
and to give' a high tone to public
.feeling. If this happy curred -before from which, the ,Government, of. England
union-were effected, happinesswould be achieved, but agi- might derive a useful Jason., The exhibition of the
tation, however peaceful, would _leave the nation where power
.of resisting the claims of Ireland,. with respect
it found it—in discontent and disorder. to the dissolution of the union, was he trusted, very re-

Sir THOMAS WILDE wished to call the attention
of' the House 'to the real. question before the House,
which had be:en obiciired by the risible , 'speech of the
Hon: Gentleman wire preceded him. The motion of the
Noble Lord was to form aCommittee to consider the
state of Ireland. Whoever hid paid any attention to
Whit had occurred 'in Ireland lately must know whether
such a motion was fitted for the present occasion or not.
He did not mean to Eli), that Ireland presented any new
state; but surely Ireland could not be suffered to continue
in the same unfortunate condition in which it had been.
so long, and it was imperative on the'British Parliament
to give their most serious attention to the condition Of
that country. Ameng. the complaints of the Irish people
was one that the British Parliament were indifferent to
their real complaints and distresies. He thought • the
attention that. had been beStowed on the present debate
by the Houie generally, and by the Right lion. Gentle-
man at the head of her Majesty's Government in parti-
cular, must repel any complaint on this- score. He
thought it very wise and proper ihat the House should
hear what Hon. Members had to inipart regarding
.the
condition of Ireland, and what remedies might be sug-
gested. When they considered the 'character of that
country in respect to her soil and resources, and the
many eminent and virtuous persons that it produced,
it was truly lamentable to reflect on .her present
distressed state; it was material to consider how that
country could be governed in
.a proper manner. It
might be said that the character of the people was pecu-
liar, but it was therefore the more necessary to suit the.
Government to their. chMgAt, A oyerrunent .which
could' not- do that, was little worthy of support.

mote, if not impossible. Bui what was the case y with
'respect to America ?--(hear, hear.) The present Go-
vernment could not hold a higher tone—they could net
more despise their anticipations which related to the dis-
memberment of, the empire, than the Government did at
the time of the American war. Contrary, however, to
their expectations--descending from their high tone and
froM their very heavy threatening, America, was lost
to this country—lest by the unhappy folly of the Go-
vernment. of the day who would not take timely warning;
and what was now the tone with respect to Ireland ?
Why was Catholic Emancipation granted.? Because
they could not withhold it. It was, easy to talk of civil-
war—but he repeated that civil war would not last long
under the sangtien of the English nation. England
would proela'rn„and proclaim loudly, against the injus-
tice of one nation.overrunning and subjugating another
on account of that nation insisting upon its ,rights. He
did not believe that England would- long endure the re-
proach of carrying on a war in order to maintain a union
which Was inconsistent with the happiness and prospe-
rity of Ireland. Surely, therefore, when the bovernment
itself looked: at the possibility of such a state of things,
they should also at the same time contemplate what would
be the probable result of such a state of things ?
Re therefore called upon the Government most seriously
to consider the subject., He thought the Noble Lord
had done right in calling upon the country to consider
what would, in all probability, be the result of that state
of things ihr which the Government had said they were
prepared, rather than consent to the union being dis—
solved. He did not apprehend that there was any rCal
desire on the part of any portion of the Irish people for a