The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-16 00:00:00

and Sir Robert Peel.—(Continued laughter.) He did not '
mean co charge anything against these Ministers, for he was
sure that they thought what they did was for the benefit of
the country.—( Hear, hear.) But when he (Mr. Byng)
thought of the 7,0;10,000 of his Roman Catholic fellow-sub-
jects, having no endowment whatever, or at least what was
scarcely worth the name, and compared that paltry ;rant with
the munificent revenues derived from Ireland for t• e support
of the religion of the remaining million of Protesta•its, he felt
bound to give his cordial vote in support of this motion. The
venerable Member sat down amid loud cheering.
Colonel VERNER said it was not his intention to have
troubled the House during this debate, but when he
considered the general feeling which prevailed throughout the
country, when he witnessed the pouring in of petitions to
that table, he felt that he should not be properly discharging
his duty as an Irish Member, if he gave a talent vote upon
this question. He could not agree with the opinion expressed
by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark, that
those petitions did not represent the feelings of the people.
He ( Colonel Verner) had always understood that there were
but two ways in which the voice of the people could reach that
House. One of the modes was by petition, and the other
through their representatives. If different opinions, therefore,

prevailed throughout the country, surely the supporters of
this measure had the same facilities for making their
opinions known as its opponents had. But had
the petitions in favour of the grant borne any proportion to the
petitions against it ? He had himself had the honour of pre-
senting a petition from Belfast against the grant, signed by
thirty-seven ministers ; and he would read to the House the
letter which accompanied it. (The Gallant Member then
read the letter, addressed to himself by the petitioners, in which
they characterised the grant as one mast mischievous in ten-
dency and unjust in practice.) He (Colonel Verner) had
not heard from one Member in that House an argument
worthy of the name, to prove that even this measure was ex-
pedient. He had observed with regret, for some time past,
that in any measure relating to Ireland, the Protestants of that
country were forgotten, as if their claims were not worth the
trouble of investigation. He would tell the House that that
portion of the population had evinced their loyalty under the
most arduous circumstances, and in the most trying times.
He recollected when the Protestant yeomen put down a re-
bellion in Ireland. They should look to the conduct of those
to whom they were now called upon to grant what was called
a boon. He hoped he should have heard something from the
Right Hon. Baronet expressive of a good disposition on the
part of those for whose benefit this grant was now to be made.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin had observed to the
House the agitated state in which Ireland was two years ago,
he might, indeed, have shortened the period, or even have
stated that Ireland was not now in its happiest state. The
House would recollect the expense to which the Government
was put by sending troops to Ireland to suppress the repeal
agitation, and the expense that was contracted in instructing
the law officers of the Crown to take legal proceedings against
the instigators of the agitation. Was there an individual Mem-
ber of that House who ;said that that body, though differing
with the Right Hon. Baronet in political opinions, yet that they
were desirous of putting down the agitation with him.?
It was no later than lest week that he himself received two
communications from the Repeal Association, calling upon him
to support their principles. He never heard of any disposition
on the part of these people to give up these proceedings at the
time that they were called up m to grant a sum of money for the
education of their priests. Supposing that he himself could re-
concile it with his feelings to grant a sum of money for their
support, he did not think that this was the most fit period.
When Mr. O'Connell had received intelligence that this grant
was about to be proposed, he in his speech said, " hurrah for
Peel and repeal." Could there be any doubt that he meant
that it was one step more in favour of repeal. Was there an
Honourable Member in the House who would suppose that that
was not what he meant ? This grant would do no good, it
would be ill-received by the Roman Catholics, and it would
excite more suspicion in the minds of the Protestants
of Ireland that they were neglected. The Protestants
of Ireland had continued their loyalty and attachment
to the Crown, and displayed it more particularly en one occa-
sion, which he could not avoid reminding the House of. It
was when a body of men, headed by several of the noblemen
and gentry of both religions, were instrumental in maintaining
the peace of the country ; and yet when it was the wish of the
sovereign that that body should no longer exist, it immediately
dissolved itself. But the time may come when the reunion of
that body may be necessary ; and if they felt themselves
neglected by those who ought to support them, it would not be
surprising if they united to protect themselves.
Mr. HUME said that he was anxious, on so interesting a
subject, to offer his opinion on the measure brought forward by
the Right Hon. Baronet. If anything in the debate could be
more important than another it was the speech of the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman who had just sat down, who, from the speech
he introduced, must be considered a fair specimen of the Irish
Protestant. He called upon them to recollect what had been
the state of Ireland. He told them that he had recollected
perhaps more than they did of the proceedings in that
country, and he detailed contests in that country between
Protestants and Roman Catholics, rebellions and the suppres-
sion of those rebellions, and massacres which every Member
must regret to have taken place. But what was the policy
laid down, according to the statement of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet last year? lie said that the first step to be taken was
to remove the just grounds of complaint under which the Ro-
man Catholics laboured, and they would thus prevent the
possibility of those scenes taking place, year after year, which
disturbed the peace of the country for the last half century.—
( Hear, hear.) It was because the Right Hon. Baronet took
that view that he would support this measure. Did not
the Right Hon. Gentleman bring forward the Dissenters' Cha-
pel Bill, which lie ( 11r. Hume) supported throughout ? And
he should say that he looked back at it as a question of great
importance to the country, and would be productive of great
benefits.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hume) was afraid that
the Roman Catholics of Ireland did not look with a proper
feeling on the Catholic Bequests Bill. When he examined
Mr. O'Connell on the state of Ireland, he stated that if Roman
Catholics were allowed a partial management of their own
affairs they would be satisfied. He (Mr. Hume) thought that
the Charitable Bequests Bill had a tendency in that way. The
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman told the Right Hon. Baronet
that the Conciliation-hall was still in existence ; but the
course the Right Hon. Baronet had taken was the only one
which email put down that agitation which had arisen from
the absence of that justice which the Irish had a right to re-
ceive.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for the University of
Dublin took a religious view of the measure ; he (Mr. Hume)
did not look upon it in the same light, and he regretted that a
cry should be raised that the Church was in danger—the " No-
Popery" cry—under the idea that Catholicism could not be
placed on a level with Protestantism ; they were exciting the
feelings that existed centuries ago. They ought to take into
consideration the changes which had since taken place, and not
seem to think that any danger could occur from any connexion
with the Pope now-a-days. He believed that no race of men
could exist together with benefit to themselvec or to the
Government, unless they were on a perfect equality.
He heard Mr. O'Connell state on those benches, that the hest
means to satisfy Ireland was to remove the grounds of corn-
pl tint ; and he ( Mr. Hume) held this measure as one of those
steps which tended to remove those grievances complained of.
If they gyve the Roman Catholic priests an education which
would enable them to bring up their parishioners in a moral
and religious feeling—if that was to be the effect of this pro-
ceeding, he thought that it would be a most important mea •
sure, and productive of great n itional benefits. Some had
complained of the priests as educated at Maynooth. , What
they wondered at was, that with such a o altry allowance they
were able to bring up men capable of 'filling the respectable
situations which parish priests should fill on coming from May-
nooth. Now they should have money sufficient to give them
that education which would empower them to improve their
11 cks ; and on that ground he looked upon the measure as one
of great national benefit. If they looked to other continental
countries, they would percsive that the Government of each
thought it their duty to afford every sect, no matter what were
its tenets, the m 'ens of obtaining fit education. In their own
colonies the same principle was adopted, and in India every
cla,s was treated, as to its religious opinions, with the greatest
respect, and it was oil am-omit of that spirit of tolerance that
contentment existed. He would take the occasion to say, that
if they treated India in the same manner as they now treated
Ireland, they wouhl not continue long in possession of
those vast territories in that part of the world.
In fact, the Mahomedans went further than even did the Eng-
lish people towards the Irish, for the Mahomer'ans were the
very first who came forward to support the Roman Catholics in
India, and on those grounds alone he would say that the Go-
vernment of this country ought to be ashamed to refuse this
act of justice to the Irish Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear.)
While he was upon this subject he would beg leave to mention
this fact, that in the year 1815 a certain Mahomedan chief
granted a sum of twenty thousand rupees for the education of
the Syrian Indians in the Christian faith.—(Hear, hear. 1 He
had heard, with surprise and regret, the speech of the Hon.
Member for Oxford; and he felt assured that no liberal man
who had heard it but felt equal regret at hearing that Hon.
Member declare that he would never concur in the payment of
money which should he devoted to the propagation of what he
conceived Ito be error.—( Hear, hear. ) 'that lion. Member
ought to have reflected a little before he used those words ; for
he was in some measure connected with India, and therefore he
( Mr. Hume) was sorry to think that the Hon. Member had
not learned something of the kindliness of feeling towards his
fellow-man, which his father, in his lifetime, so usefully and
extensively practised.—( Hear, hear.) But after what he
( Mr. Hume) had stated in reference to India, he would say to
this country, look at what a noble example the Pagan has set
you, and are you not ashamed of yourselves ?—( Cheers.) lie
looked upon the position of Ireland in reference to this question
to be similar, in some respects, to that of the Christians in
India, and therefore at least as much consideration should be
shown them, in proportion to their relative positions.—( Hear.)
Now let him suppose that Ireland, instead of having been con-
quered two hundred years ago, that event took place only hat
January, would any man in England propose, as the first mea-
sure towards that country, that all their property should be
taken from them, and the people left without the means of
education ?—( Hear, hear.) They had not done so to Canada
—in fact they had not treated any part of the world belonging
to them in the same manner as they had treated Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) When the returns that had been ordered should
have been laid upon the table of the House, it would be found
that England had been liberal in her grants of funds to every
country dependent upon her, while to Ireland she had been quite
the contrary.—( Hear, hear.) Again, he would contend for it
that this was not a religious question, and that religion had
nothing at all to do with it. lie would say that whatever
country England ruled, the people of that country had a right
to expect all the means necessary to do them justice and make
them happy.—( Hear, hear.) It might be regretted that the
Roman Catholics were so numerous; but that was not the
towardsquest the
ion;thsearpepothretyofwtehree,andas
State,
theyth eyshcoonutldribnuottebdethkeeiprtshinarae
state of discontent and dissatisfaction.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
if the House did not approve of this measure as a step towards
removing their discontent, he would ask what other means did
they purpose ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber opposite had threatened a renewal of those unions of par-
ties in Ireland that had long distracted that country ; but he
(Mr. Hume) begged to assure the Gallant Officer that if only
justice were done to Ireland, all such associations would be
wquitei c u nne
had discharged,
e es s ar y—( Cheers.
the English Government had
owedae wduod n
t yu
to
tcho
en tpeeod fo
p e or
fi
nt ht
d a
htheyecd—( Hear, hear.) He would contend
w
e
for it that much etf
Cheers.)
u while they left their duty to Ire-
land totally disregard
a large
othfereseliugaiobnblwinags
othwaitngetxoisttehde
mannerlre
in which-
land en the subject
share of the public property had
been disposed of. I
the general discontent, then
that were not the cause of
and see what it wag, for the Government should look back,
continued system of deoTatdt must have originated in a long-
on and insult, that no people
could endure.—(llear, hea
land was an oppressed coantrr.) He would say, then, that Ire-
and her people had become Ydi„ujrubtice had been denied her,
vinced of that injustice.— hear. ed because they were con-
( Hear,
not pursue the same course toward) Be would ask, why
adopted in England and Scotland? I Ireland that had been
of the people, being Protestant, held n England the majority
nance of their Church ; but let them
mrotpaekrty for the mainte-
did not come when they would lose it.
—(Hear.)
care(e
athat the day
look at Scotland ; in that country the religion of the majority
Then,
was supported out of property belonging to the Church,
all
this support came from the public after all.—( Hear, hear.) rßut in Ireland the property of the church was taken from her,.
and, then, when the Prime Minister came forward with a pro-
position as a remedy for the removal of some portion of the load
of injustice and oppression, he was met by not only every op-
position that could be offered, but also by epithets that did
but very little credit indeed to those who used them.—( Hear. )
On the grounds that he had stated, he would support this mea-
lure, for he looked upon it as ono of public polio and

as one that would give satisfaction to the Irish people, and a
better education to their clergy.—( Hear, hear.) There was
one point to which he would have objected if it were proposed,
and that was, taking the means out of the Consolidated Fund.
He would prefer that the fund should be supplied from the
saving created by the abolition of pluralities and sinecures in
the Established Church ; but as those funds, to the amount of
130,0001. had been otherwise applied, he would then suggest
that they should be provided out of the Consolidated Fund
until they could be saved from the other source.—( Hear.)
He begged to say that he would most cordially support the
motion of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Cheers.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE did not think that the Hon. Member
who had just sat down had been very convincing in his arguments,
or very complimentary to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, in
placing them in comparison with the idolatora of India. But
he blamed the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland for much of
the misery of the people of that faith. He did not consur
in opinion with those who supported this measure upon the as-
sertion that, by increasing the facilities of education, and
placing the student in
_an easier position, the people would be
grateful. He saw by a report in the newspapers of a late
meeting of the Roman Catholic Institute, that the Provincial of
the Jesuits was present and addressed the meeting. They
might recollect that the Catholic Emancipation Act contained
a provision which required all the Roman Catholic regular
c'ergy to register themselves. He had endeavoured to ascer-
tain whether there was such a registry, but he believed that
none existed.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think much of the
argument derived from the poverty of the people of Ireland, for
he thought there was great truth in the remark of the Hon.
and Gallant Member for Weymouth, that when the people of
Ireland sent 10,000/. to Lyons for the Propaganda, they could
support a college of their own. The Roman Catholics of Eng-
land had no difficulty in supporting places for the education of
English priests. When he looked to the destination of this
grant, when he saw that it was going for the support of the
active pioneers of a faith in which he did not believe, for the
maintenance of active disturbers of the public peace, it could
not be wondered at that it had his decided opposition; and he
must confess that he little expected such a measure would be
brought forward by the present Government. For the various
reasons he had stated he would vote against the measure.
Mr. PAKINGTON said that he could not agree in the
conclusion to which his Hon. Friend who had just sat down
had come to, with respect to this measure. He was of opinion
that Protestantism would be better able to defend its position
when the present measure was carried. He was sorry that the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh took up
a narrow party ground in arguing this measure. He thought
that the Right Hon. Gentleman was wrong in saying that the
present Government made the " No Popery" cry the means of
their getting into office.—(lronical cheering.) It was per-
fectly true they raised a cry to defend the Protestant religion
when they thought it was in danger ; and he was ready to take
the same course again. The Right Hon. Gentleman also said
—and his Hon. Friend the Member for Northamptonshire
stated the same sentiment more broadly—that the present mea-
sure lost much of its grace, if not of its utility, in being
brought forward by the present Government. Now, he thought
of all persons his Right Hon. Friend, who had carried Catholic
Emancipation, was the person who had the best right to pro-
pose such a measure as this. He thought the argument
put forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
the University of Dublin, and others—namely, that of the
present measure being the forerunner of others—was a very
feeble one. He did not see why we should be in a worse position
to defend others, by consenting to the present one. He would
not yield in his desire to uphold Protestantism to any one, and
he voted for the present measure because he did not think the
Protestant religion could be injured by it. He thought, with
his Right Hon. Friend, that the worst course that could be
adopted would be that of leaving Maynooth as it was. He
considered the state of Maynooth was one of the greatest prac-
tical evils under which Ireland suffered. He voted for the
measure on this ground, and because he looked upon it as one
step in that wise conciliatory policy towards Ireland, which
every Government in this country ought now to carry out.—
(Cheers.) He believed that concession would be met by gra-
titude on the part of the Irish people. Entertaining these
views, he should certainly give his support to the measure re-
commended by her Majesty's Government.
Mr. P. M. STEW ART said he was anxious to say a few
words in explanation of the vote he was about to give. After
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Edinburgh, delivered last night, it would be presumption in
him to attempt to answer the speech which had been made in
reply to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edin-
burgh, by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Droitwich.
In 1841, at the general election, the weapon used by the Con-
servative, now the prevalent party in this country, was the cry
of "No Popery." That weapon was used by that party when
in Opposition with the greatest effect. In this assertion he
would be borne out by the con'tituencies of the country. At
that time there was a general cry in the country of " the
Church is in danger," and the cry was repeated ad illtil.5(11»t.
Such was the extent to which that cry was carried, that he
who was then the distinguished leader of the Whig party, gave
utterance to the well-known expression—" that it was a heavy
blow, and great discouragement " to the party then in power.
He (Mr. Stewart) protested against the party opposite now
throwing away the weapon they had formerly used or denying
that they had used it. The Hon. Member for Droitwich had stated
that if a measure were good in itself it mattered not who intro-
duced it. The Hon. Member could not have heard the forcible
manner in which this argument had been dealt with by the
Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh. That Right Hon. Gen-
tleman prefaced his remarks by saying that the country had an
interest in this measure, and they also had a deep interest in
the character of public men. He went on to say, then, that if
this Bill were right in principle now, it must have been doubly
right at an earlier period of the sufferings of that country to
which it a,iplied. This was the argument used with respect
to the policy of the party opposite now, and their policy some
four years ago. He (Mr. Stewart), differing from those with
whom he had the honour usually to act, sincerely wished that
this Bill might never reach the statute-book of these realms.
But, if it were to pass, let them not be told that the Bill in-
volved no question of principle, and therefore they ought only
to discuss points of detail. His construction—his humble con-
struction was, that no Bill had ever been introduced into
that House involving more direct and important points of
principle than the 811 which they were then discussing.
They had been told that since 1;95 a sessional grant had re-
gularly been made to the College of Maynooth. The Bill
now before the House was intended to remove this annual
grant out of the reach of Parliament—in the first place to
treble the amount of the grant, and in the next place to give
33,0 .01. to the improvement of the College. Did not that in-
volve a question of principle? The country had so iaterpreted
it, and in his humble opinion he believed they had judged
rightly. He believed that they were, in making this grant,
violating the protest which this nation had made against
Popery. Those who had spoken in favour of this grant had
all modified their opinions. First came the Bight Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone). Then
came the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath—strong, pun-
gent, and full of argument in favour of the Biq, and against
those who dared to differ from it. How did that Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman qualify his sup; ort. of this
measure? He said that if this bail been the first proposal
made of the kind, if they had not been in the habit of granting
annually a sum of money to Maynooth, he would not have
assented to this measure. That was the qualified support
which came from such a quarter as the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath. Then came his Hon, Friend the Member

for Lambeth, who said that unless the amount given by this
Bill should be axed, settled, and drawn from the source which
his Hon. Friend the Member lot- Sheffield, at a future stage of
the Bill, intended to suggest, he could not approve of the Bill.
Then Came the Bight Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire-
land, who said that it was useless to meddle in this matter, for
it was better to let well alone. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then had the effrontery—he would pardon him for using such
an expression—to say that there was no well in Ireland to let
alone at that moment. Was there no " well" in Irel ind in
U 5-11., when the Government was given into the hands of the
present Adminstration ? Ireland was never in a more pros-
perous state than it was at the time when the late Government

left office. He believed that this Bill, which was intended as a
sop to the Catholics, would act as an inducement to them to
make greater demands. What had Mr. O'Connell said in his
admirable speech, which showed no failing of intellect, and
no cooling of ardour in the cause of Ireland ?--( Hear,
hear.) .L.',e said, "I take this as the first fruits
of fear, and I am sure it. will not be the last. You may de-
pend upon it that the next thing will be to repeal itself from
the eminent author of the Bill now before us. The Hon.
and Learned Gentlaman called this a boon to misbelieve, and
he said that they would mihetieve agoin, fort they were
now beginning to reap the fruits of it. What ef-
fect could a measure of this kind have on Ireland,
or the Irish people, when it was so interpreted by their Go-
vernment and eminent leader. The meastire would evidently
be merely productive of further demands from the people of
Leland. When he observed the fruits of agitation in Ireland,
he almost began to regret that they had not adopted the same
system in his o vn quiet country of Scotland. In that country
they were looked upon as passive and as peaceable, and there.
fore they were capriciously disposed of. As was stated by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Bath, on
the previous night, tao years ago the people of Scotland came
forward with respect to a great national cause connected with the
Scotch Church. They wished to present apetition, not for motley,
not for patronage, for they abhorred the latter and they did not 1
value the former. They came to the door of that House with
a petition, the prayer of which was simply this, that in secular
matters they might be held subservient to the law, but that in
spiritual matters they should be freed from the baneful domina-
tion of civil courts and civil magistrates. Not only was that
petition not allowed to be brought in, but it was spurned from
their door. Was there justice in this ? He trusted that his
Catholic Friends around him would not think that he had said
anything in the least degree hostile to them or their religion.
He admitted that the world was largely indebted to the Roman
Catholics. Every one must admire the works and the charac-
ter of such men as Fenelon, Pascal, and the historian Lingard.
But he was bound to say, that he would not lend a hand to
anything which was calculated to risk the great principles of the
reformation on which the Constitution of the country depended.
There was no mistaking the opinion of the people at large upon
this subject. They had heard some able speeches delivered on
this question, and the ridicule that had been thrown on the
multitude of petitions, and the acres of parchment with which
thattable was covered; but he would tell them that on no subject
ever petitioned upon were the petitioners more in earnest. He
believed that the measure which was proposed to the House
was fraught with evil, and could only be productive of very
' doubtful good to the country. He said, for the sake of the
Catholics of Ireland and the Protestants on this side the
Channel, that he desired, in his heart, that this Bill might
never reach the statute-book, for he felt assured, that should
it become law, it would be eradicated from the statute-book on
the very first occasion. Although in this opinion he was in a
minority in that House, yet he believed that the majority in
the country were with him, and as the representative not of a
particular community but of the people at large--of this Pro-
testant country and also of Catholic Ireland—for the sake of
both Protestants and Catholics he entered his protest against
the measure by giving his vote against it.
The Earl of LINCOLN said he felt so convinced that the
subject before the House was completely exhausted—that
during the three nights over which the debate had been ex-
tended, every argument that could be urged, for or against the
measure, had been so often repeated, that he might hesitate in
rising to address the House, and might content himself by
giving a silent vote on this occasion, but he was anxious to re-
move from himself any misconstruction which might attach to
his silent vote. He was anxious to address the House, in ( rder
to declare that he did not give the measure a hesitating or
doubtful support, but that he was interested in its success, not
only in its passage through Parliament, but for its success in
Ireland, when it had obtained the sanction of the Legislature.
So strongly was he convinced of the necessity and justice of the
measure, that he only wished that, in the few observations
which he would venture to address to the House, he could
impress on those who did him the honour of listening to
him for a short time, his conscientious conviction
of the wisdom of the measure, which was so deeply
fixed in his own mind. The Honourable Gentleman who
last addressed the House appealed very strongly—especially in
the concluding portion of his speech—to the religious feelings
of the community. He was ready to admit that the religious
feelings of the community had been roused. He admitted that
there was a great deal of opposition to the Bill; he was con"
711ncd that no statesman could with propriety be rash enough
to disregard such feelings • but it was the duty of a statesman
. to carefully examine whether or not these relous feelings were
based on justice.
said that if the Government
this measure
their conduct.
had
Hon. Gentleman The Hon. Gentleman who last sat down
had foreseen the reception which
He (the
they would have reconsidered
(the Earl of Lincoln) imagined that the
uthat exprestiou of
have timult . meant to imply that the Government would
religious feeling, and would

not have dared to introduce the measure. He believed—in
fact, he knew—that his Right Hon. Friend, not only when he
brought forward the question a few nights ago, but when he
gave notice of his intention last year, was well aware of the
risk which he was running, and the manner in which it was
likely to be received ; and he thought this of itself sufficiently
answered the taunt raised against the Government by several
Hon. Members, more especially by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Edinburgh—the taunt of inconsistency.
The Hon. Centleman who had last spoken had, he thought,
answered that taunt when be said that there had been no call
for this measure. If there had been no call, and if these feel-
ings had been anticipated, he should like to know what but the
imperious sense of duty could have induced the Government to
bring it forward ?—( Hear.) The question of contract in this
matter had been repeatedly argued and re-argued, during three
nights' debate. A great number of Hon. Gentlemen, includ.
ing the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh,
denied that any contract existed, or even, he believed, an im-
plied contract. He (the Earl of Lincoln) was ready to rest
his vote upon the merits of the measure itself; but he did not
at all agree with those who asserted that there was no contract,
or that a contract had ever existed. He could not agree with
those who asserted that there was no contract, any more than
with those who declared that a new religious principle was in-
volved in the present measure. In discussing the question of
contract, he felt, as he had already stated, that there were much
higher grounds for defending the measure; but he felt con-
vinced in his own mind, seeing that two Acts of the Irish Par-
liament had created and sanctioned the measure—( Hear)—
seeing that the acts of the Irish Legislature had been sanc-
tioned by the Imperial Parliament of Great Britain, which
had devised regulations respecting the College, appointing
trustees ; and he might remark by the way that those trustees
had been appointed when the Legislature was Protestants ;
and at a time when none but Protestants could be trustees. In
the rear 1809, and in the year 1813, this vote had been revised
f
of
educationincreasing it, and for the purpose of giving
aand an increased number of or the
better purpose
mode
ofo
stu-
dents. He could not witness all these facts, without feeling
that they had been committed to the principle, and that a
contract had existed, not indeed a contract written in a formal
manner, and having that legal force which would bind an in-
dividual, but such a contract as alone could exist between the
Government and the governed. He had stated just now
his disbelief that any new religious principle was involved
in the measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Edinburgh had sneered at the allegation that no religious
principle was involved in the measure. What he (the Earl of
Lincoln) asserted was, that no religious principle was involved.
There was the same religious principle in the measure of 1795.
The question was then settled and disposed of. It was now only a
question of arithmetical calculation, with which religious prin-
ciples had nothing to do. In 1795 the measure had been pro-
posed that had been suggested by Burke and approved
by Pitt. It had been laid before the :prelates of
England for their sanction and approval, passed through
both Houses of Parliament—a Parliament exclusively Fro•
testant—sanctioned and received the force of law in the reign
of George 111., a monarch whose memory Englishmen reve-
renced, but more especially extolled by those who maintained
the principle of Protestant ascendancy. If, then, a measure
was sanctioned and continued under such circumstances, for

such a length of time, could they then, in 1845, in a reformed
Parliament, with a House of Commons to which Roman Catho•
lice had been admitted, and who were commingled with the
legislation in all matters connected with the empire—could
they, he said, pass a resolution for the purpose of discontinuing
the ()rant altogether ? If they admitted and believed, as the
Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh
had admitted, they could not, with justice, discontinue the
vote altogether, any objection fell to the ground against
the proposal to increase it. Whilst upon this part of the ques-
tion he would quote the words of Mr. Grattan on a similar
occasion. In 1811 Mr. Grattan said, in answer to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of that day, that he was not aware of
the strength of the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument. That
although we adopted the original grant we were not obliged to
allow it. "If (said Mr. Grattan) the principle be even al-
lowed, the limitation of the grant seemed only fixed by the cir-
cumstances of the time—to act otherwise would be nominally

to adopt, but ultimately to defeat the principle." This grant
had been continued for a number of years. He would not say
that fifty years' usage made right wrong. He was willing to
admit the force of the maxim, that no length of time could jus-
tify evil—that what was wrong in morals could not be right in
politics. But then he was compelled to ask, was any such maxim
involved in the measure before the House ? Was there any pro-
posal involving an infringement of religious principles ? Was the
endowment of the institution different in a religious point of view
from making an annual vote? He did not subscribe to any such
opinions. If Hon. Gentlemen really believed that a religious
principle was involved, he called upon them to act up to that
belief. They could not stop here ; they could not be content
with the rejection of the measure before the House. He be-
lieved that some among his Hon. Friends that had spoken on
the question were willing to go further—were willing to repeal
the Act of Parliament altogether ; but he did not think they
would vindicate their consistency even by this step. They
must go further. They must resist any contribution to the
Dissenters of Ireland—the application of the Regions Donum.
They must withdraw from all the colonies the spiritual assist-
ance of the priests of the Roman Catholic faith. His Hon.
Friend (the Member for Newcastle) said, on moving the
amendment, that lie was ready to make an exception
in favour of the colonies, in consequence of treaties that bound
them to those payments. Where then was the principle ?
Let him remind his Hon. Friend that, if he considered this to
be a religious principle, he could not but resist it. No ques.
tion of expediency could step in where religious principle stood
upon the threshold. Therefore, his Hon. Friend and those
who thought with him should be prepared to act upon this
principle, and to treat those treaties as mere waste paper. No
consideration of temporal advantage to the colonies should
withhold them from acting on such principles. He looked
upon this question as unconnected with any principle of
religion. He saw in Ireland a priesthood placed in :he midst
of a people who were poor and ignorant. The priesthood
must possess influence and popularity in precise proportion to
their qualities and merits. He saw a priesthood placed in
Ireland under these circumstances, and could he then hesitate

seeing the immense moral influence they possessed to adopt
means to educate the people. Could he hesitate to give in-
struction to those by whom alone the people of Ireland were
willing to receive instruction ? He confessed he did not despair
of seeing the hearts of the priesthood interested in the common
cause of the empire. lle did not despair of seeing the Roman
Catholic priesthood labouring with them in the common field,
not of religion, but of the regeneration and improvement of
the country. If such a consummation as this was to be
attained, he would appeal to the Right Honourable
Gentleman (the Member for Oxford) whether he would not
make a sacrifice, short of that in which he thought
religion was involved? But he believed that to such a consum-
mation this must be the first step. Without a measure of this
kind, nothing they could do would be met in a grateful spirit.
He believed that unless they passed a measure placing, in a
better position than they at present stood, the priesthood of
Ireland, the best edoi is of the Government would be thwarted,
and nothing they could do would have the desired effect. Se-
veral Hon. Gentlemen who had addressed the House, more
particularly the Members for Harwich and Warwickshire, had
laid stress on what they conceived to he ti-et imperfect insti-
tution of Maynooth up to the present time.—( Hear.) Those
Hon. Gentleman had said that the experiment had been tried
for fifty tears—that it had failed .and that therefore it was the
incumbent duty of Parliament to withdraw instead of increase
the grant. But the lion. Gentleman who had come to such
a conclusion had not inquited into the causes of the failure.
He was not now about to go into any further detail, regarding
the present condition of the institution, but he believed the
assertion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth,
who asserted that Maynooth was in a condition such as
any man could wish to see it, was incorrect.
He would not allude to the system of religion
or education practised there, but he firmly believed that the
grant at present allowed by Parliament, from its limited na-
ture, caused the whole system pursued there to he illiberal, and
was not likely to impress on the minds of the students
any grateful feelings towards the State. Before they pro-
nounced. Alaynooth to be a failure they ought to increase the
comforts of the inmates. It was said that no system of edu-
cation could succeed among the humbler classes, unless their
physical wants were first consulted. The same argument an-
plied to Maynooth. He hoped the House would not attempt to
interfere with the system of instruction pursued at Maynooth,
nor attempt to raise up spiritual with temporal education
there. Such arras the opinion of Mr. Burke. —( The Noble
Lord then quoted the opinion of Mr. Burke on this subject,
which has already been given in this debate.) Suebt a course
(continued the Noble Lord), would only have the eff'ct of
making the laity bigoted, without making the clergy more
liberal. The Hon. Member for Armagh had complained of
the time at which this measure had been brought forward,
and the Member for Harwich took the same line of conduct.
He had stated that this was not the proper time for the intro-
duction of this measure, but he (the Earl of Lincoln) believed
that it was precisely the time, because this was the moment
when the grant ought to be made, and the manner of it lie con-
oeived to be of equal importance with the time at which it was
made. 'Die Hon. Member for Dungarvon (Mr. Sheil) in a
speech the other night, which was characterised with more than
his usual eloquence, had reminded them that Mr. O'Connell in
the whole of his speeches had asserted, that all the concessions
that had been made had been extorted from their fears.
I3ut, he would ask, could it now be asserted that this
concession had been extorted from their fears ? and he
conceived that this was the precise moment when this mea-
sure should be introduced. Agitation had been suppressed,
the supremacy of the law had been vindicated, and the clamour
for repeal had been hushed in the murmur of general industry
and commercial prosperity. They had neither conflicts nor
wars, none even of those little wars which Hon. Gentlemen
opposite had left as a legacy to their successors—there were
not even rumours of wars. If this measure were adopted, he
believed that it would tend to promote the peace of Ireland.
The House should remember that the question was not now in
the position in which it stood before it was introduced.
They had offered this chalice of goodwill to the people of Ire-
land, and he trusted that they would not frustrate those hopes.
For himself he felt that his vote would be attended with a very
painful responsibility, and it was not without much serious con-
sideration that he had come to the decision to vote for this
grant to Maynooth, and that he had felt it necessary to express
his sentiments upon it. During the twelve years which he had
had the honour of holding a seat in that House he
had never until now had the misfortune to differ
with a majority of his constituents, but on this
subject he felt it his duty—his most painful duty—to
follow the impulse of his conscience and the dictates of his rea-
son.—( Hear, hear.) There were other reasons, too, which
would make this vote a most painful one—(Loud and con-
tinued cheering)—which would make this vote a most painful
one, but which it would be neither right or becoming in him
to explain to that House.—( Cheers.) But he trusted that,
however severe the trial, lee still was determined to do justice
to his country, and persevere in the course which principle and
conviction alike pointed nut to him ; and while he regretted
the pressure to which many of his friends were subjected, he
would yet, with all humility, urge upon them to act upon the
aimocporredsstioontsb
ewmhi
ttihnegy
esteem.—(Cheers,)
taede ado. tecdh,efoorrsi
)notwithstanding the
opinions that their constituentspmht at present express, yet
they might mniogthotnfleyelaalsasrugred that they would act upon their future
convictions, and, allowing the claims upon their respect
e number of the body
butL Lord
f\rVomOßmSaLnyEY said that he had presented petitions,
f from that
of the Dissenting
part of the county of Lincoln
and he should not now have obtruded himself on the House
on this occasion, but thaj he thought it would be both more
honest and honourable to do so, rather than give a silent vote
or absent himself from the House. He had also the misfor-
tune to differ from a great portion to°f"glia.i:sgfactol:lensts‘iVtucesnietYsanosn'
this question. He had come to that House, it was true, un-
with which he was connected,
pledged on this or any other subject—but his sentiments were
not unknown, for not only had he declared them, but in
'ofBo3sndo n whenmo
ecclesiasticalvhis e
foraffNaoirbsl e
isneFriend,rcetl
acn do
m themw
ii
titt
threeeamt
view
ieerw considerf otor t h e City of
the surplus fund for the education of the people at appropriatelarge, and
declaring his intention of giving
to all bodies of Christians, ancr he should therefore, with a
s taant
de
view to follow out the liberal policy of his Noble Friend
towards Ireland, vote for the second reading. But whilst thus
the Bill, he must at the same time hsiasystuhpapto,gritntcoonthfoart
the views that he had then expressed, he should support also
mexittyenwtittho
the proposition of the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward),
and oppose the appropriation of the 26,0001. from the Conso-
lidated Fund.
Mr. M. MILNES said that he he hailed this as the first
step of a great measures—he looked on it as a step only towards
carrying out the effects of a motion which he had
placed on the boo La of the House hilt aelli9Pl for the

endowment of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) The question was not now whether they
should add a few more comforts, or elev to the position of the
Romish clergy, for he believed that on that point neither his
Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. Inglis), nor any
other Member of that House, would entertain the slightest
objection on that account to give a little more furniture to the
rooms of the students, of a decent front to the building, or
throw an air of cheerfulness over those gloomy apartments,
by giving them some of the refinements of England. He did
not think that there was any fear that the addition of such
comforts, or the introduction of more wealth to the Roman
Catholic establishments of the country would tend to advance
the religion of Ireland, for if they did the Irish Protestant
Church would not have remained in the same stationary posi-
tion which it had held fur the last forty years. He believed
that even his Hon. Friend the Member for Kent (Mr.
Plumptre) if he saw a Roman Catholic priest lying wounded
by the wayside, would stoop down to help him up ; and yet if
he did that he would be supporting Popery—( Great laughter )
and he never had been more shocked in the whole course of his
life than when he heard the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Oxford express a feeling that lie would rather see the Roman
Catholic priesthood of Ireland suffering all their present
deficiency, if they were likely to become such men
as Bossuet or Dr. Wiseman. Something had been
said about the contract. He believed that the terms of the
contract had been fulfilled at the clo.e of the war, for the ob-
ject for which this grant was made had been to secure domes
tic education for the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland,
when England was fearful of injury from their foreign rela-
tions. But he believed that Mr. Pitt, who made that con-
tract, would look upon its spirit in a very different light ; and
he thought that if the spirit of Mr. Pitt were hovering over
them at that moment, he would view their proceedings with
singular complacency. If there was one thing that could en-
hance the value of this gift more than another, it was the
frank and honourable manner with which the Honourable
Baronet had proposed it. Great reflection had been thrown
upon the administration of the present Government in Ireland,
but he believed that nothing was more unwise—nothing more
unjust. That Government had gone the right way to conciliate
the people of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—by the only way in
which the Irish people would or could accept conciliation—and
that was, by placing the priesthood in a position of respect-
ability and honour ; and if the Right Hon. Baronet wished to
bring peace to that country, he would follow the good ex-
ample of his predecessors to the utmost.—(" Hear, hear,"
and cheers.) Yet in doing this he must so act
as to save himself from the reproach from which his prede-
cessors had suffered, for he could effect all this without touching
upon the privileges or the rights of the Protestant establish-
ments in that country.—(Laughter.) He thought it neces-
sary to say this, because the object of the Whigs had been the
destruction of that establishment. —(Cries of " No, no," and
" Hear, hear.") Well, he thought it necessary to state this,
because he conceived that the motives of Hon. Members on
both sides of the House shouldbe fully developed on this subject.
If the question had been brought forward by the opposite side
of the House he would have given it his fullest support.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that in all questions of politics ex-
pediency was the best ruleoe-(" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
He thought that the question of principle was used as the most
important in cases which we opposed, and expediency was
adopted in all cases of which we approved. He was glad that
this proposition had been brought forward at this time, and by
the men by whom it was introduced.—(A laugh. ) The cir-
cumstances of Ireland required it. He was glad that his Right
Hon. Friend, with the Duke of Wellington, who resisted Ca-
tholic Emancipation until that resistance brought on the threat
of a civil war, now interposed their power and their wisdom,
foregoing their previous determinations, and showing the
world that it was not any spirit of misanthropy which actuated
them.—(Cheers.) They sacrificed all previous views for the
purposes of reconciling the interests of the nation.—( Cheers. )
They did not go on as the Government of a neighbouring coun-
try was going on, faintly endeavouring to work out good mea-
sures against a mistaken and factious opposition.—( Cheers. )
They proposed measures in which all that wished for the good
of the country could agree. He hoped the House would assist the
Government, and regard all measures, not with regard to the
views of any faction, bot with regard to the general good of the
country.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He believed that
all the opponents of the Bill were well-meaning men in the
closet.—( Great laughter.) They were, some of them, men
whom he esteemed in private life, but to whom he would not
entrust the destinies of his country.—( Cheers and laughter. )
He hoped this measure would pass, and that there would be no
occasion to revert to that:severity towards Ireland which, at all
times, could only be regarded as an amiable misanthropy.—
(Cheers and laughter.) He considered his Hon. Friend
near him an amiable misanthrope.—(Great laughter. )
The grievances inflicted upon Ireland by this country was
great. It was necessary to compensate them—(Cheers)—and
if the loss of his own seat were the consequence of his vote, he
would (to use the words of Hon. Members opposite) adopt the
present occasion as the most auspicious for the sacrifice.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY had no doubt it was an exceed-
ingly entertaining thing for any person who stood in a position
of political antagonism in that House, to indulge in matters of
crimination and recrimination on one side and on the other—to
contrast the conduct of persons on the present occasion with
that of past years, but he felt, as a Roman Catholic Member for
Ireland, that he was not in a situation to adopt such a course.
It was for him to leave it to others who had
before fought in the arena of uncertain politics to adopt such a
course. He stood upon neutral ground to consider as a Roman
Catholic what the proposition of her Majesty's Government was
towards Ireland, and not in any spirit of crimination or
recrimination which had been so freely indulged in by Hon.
Gentlemen en both sides of the House. He conscientiously
believed the measure before them would have the advantage, of
paving the way to the permanent peace of both countries, and
if it were sanctioned by the House in a cordial and liberal
spirit, it would lead to the existence of a lasting unanimity
between the two nations. It was in that spirit that he now
came before the House as a Roman Catholic Member, to sup-
port the Government ; but if it should so happen that in
the course of his address he overstepped in some measure that
spirit in which he wished to view the question, he hoped the
House would not look upon it in the light of obloquy, but
attribute it to the natural fervour of an Irishman. Having
said thus much, he would proceed very shortly, be-
fore coming to the principle of the proposition, to review
certain speeches which had been made against the measure
by Hon. Gentlemen who sat on the other aide of the House.
The first speech, and almost the first arguments against the
Bill he had an opportunity of hearing were those of the Hon.
Member for Newcastle. That speech broached two proposi-
tions. One was that a degree of ignorance existed in the
College of Maynooth, which was not only lamentable, but ac-
tually ridiculous; and yet the principal recommendation of
the Hon. Member was to withhold any grant of public money,
which was calculated to remove the evils of which he com-
plained. The Honourable Member next declared that there
was something in the exclusive character of this institution
which was truly repugnant to the feelings. New, if the Hon.
Member for Newcastle had made that speech on Thursday
evening, when the Hon. Member for Weymouth brought for-
ward his motion for throwing open the Universities of this
country to the members of all religious denominations,
it would have been exceedingly applicable to the
occasion.—(Cheers.) In Ireland the feeling had long
been favourable to the throwing open of Trinity College to all
classes, but the zealous efforts of the people had never yet se-
cured that boon. They refused to throw open Trinity Col-
lege to the Roman Catholics, and the people, therefore, asked
Parliament to make some provision for the education at
Maynooth. And this brought him to the principle of the
measure. He found that the proposition of the Go-
vernment was to give a certain earn towards the endow-
ment of a Roman Catholic College in Ireland. He had been
told by some Hon. Members who opposed it, that there was no
compact for making this provision; and, far his part, he never
did consider that any existed. He merely looked to this grant
as a matter recurring from year to year; but he would ask
any person, whether there was no implied compact in the first
instance? He would ask him whether there was not a tone
and temper in the state of society in this country, at the time
the grant was first made, as to lead to the belief that it was in-
tended to be permanent and fixed? Some Hon. Members
did not object to the grant while it was kept at 9,000/. a year ;
but when Government proposed to raise it to 30,0001., they
opposed it beause the grant was encouraging error. Now he
confessed this was the ft.st time he had ever heard that there
was such a thing as a sliding scale in morality. He
could not understand how that could be base at 39,00 C/.,
which was not so at 9,000/. The latter sum was evidently
not sufficient to maintain the College; but the Hen. Member
for Perth was of a different opinion. The Hon. Member for
Perth thought the grant conferred every comfort on the in-
mates of Maynooth ; and in support of this opinion the Hon.
Member quoted a passage from a work written by a Mr. James
Grant, but his Hon. Friend the Member for Dungarvon appeared
to give no weight to that opinion, because it was given by a
Scotclernan, who might not be supposed to be the best judge of
the comforts or the use of trousers.—( Laughter.) Now he (Mr.
Sergeant Murphy) should very much like to have the notions of
Mr. Grant on the subject of dress. He held in his hand a
book which that gentleman had devoted to a description of that
House, and certainly his delineations of articles of dress, and
other matters, were well calculated to convince Hon. Members
what amount of judgment this respectable Scotch traveller
was likely to possess upon the merits and corn forts of this semi-
nary. He would commence with the description of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, whose per-
son and dress this gentleman had described in the most
graphic manner. He was quite sure any one who heard the
description would say at once, " there is the man." Mr.
Grant said, " The Right Hon Baronet's usual dress is a blue
surtout"—( Roars of laughter, in which the Right Hon.
Baronet heartily joined)—" light waistcoat, and dark
trousers. He generally displays a watch-chain on his breast,
with a bunch of gold seafs of unusually large dimensions."
—( Roars of laughter.) Now let the House, continued
the Honourable Member, listen to what followed. He
was sure that the Right Honourable Gentleman would
feel that it was a calumny upon him. " He can scarcely be
called a dandy—(Roars of laughter)—and yet he sacrifices a
good deal to the Graces—(Renewed laughter). I hardly
know a public man who dresses in better taste."
That was the description of the Right Hon. Baronet.
He now came to another description of a somewhat different
character, the description of the Gallant Colonel the Member
for Lincoln.—(Shouts of laughter.) He saw the Gallant
Colonel in his place on the opposite benches, and as he ap-
peared, in The spirit of good humour, to appreciate the faithful-
ness of the other portrait, he (Mr. Sergeant Murphy) would
make no bones about reading the description given of the
Gallant Colonel himself by the veracious writer. He says
" His countenance is altogether unique.—( Roars of laughter)
It stands out, in broad relief, from the countenances of all the
other Members.—(Continued laughter.) Two or three of the
senators rejoice in tufts, a few more in whiskers, but the whis-
kers of the Gallant Member for Lincoln left in the distance,
and out of all proportion, the whiskers of other Hon. Members.
You hardly know whether he has a mouth or not—(Laughter
from all parts of the House, in which the Gallant Colonel
heartily joined)—it is so completely buried amidst a crop of
hair, until he begins to speak." But let them mark the
"plums of the pudding." "He would do and suffer a great deal
for his party and principles, but rather than submit to be
shaved, he would see Toryism and party scattered to the
winds."—(Shouts of laughter.) He would go a little further,
and come to this side of the House, and he would turn to the
description of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Lambeth.—
(Laughter.) " He speaks frequently—(Laughter)—and ge-
nerally on unimportant subjects—( Continued laughter)—and
there is not one great principle with Which he is identified.
He is a little man—(Shouts of laughter)—round-faced, and of
a dark complexion."—(Laughter.) He should not keep the
House much longer, but would just quote another of the
graphic portraits from the book before him. He found it
stated of the Right Hon. Memher for Perth, " that he was of
extremely graceful proportions, and of retiring habits."
Now, he was sure that no Hon. Member in that House, after
hearing these descriptions read, could doubt the com-
petency of the authority quoted by the Right
Honourable Member for Perth, in all matters of
comfort, dress, and convenience.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. )
There had been two objections, which he had found generally
urged to the House in opposition to this Bill. It was stated
in the first place that they boasted of supporting their own
clergy, and it was asked why they did not also instruct them
themselves upon the voluntary principle ? His answer was,
that they were willing to pay them themselves if the establish-
ment in Ireland were entirely changed ; but, as proved by the
report of the Poor-law Commissioners, they had now in addi-
tion to their other burdens to maintain a pauper population,
amounting to 2,500,000.—(Hear, hear.) They were asked by
the Hon. Member for Newcastle, how it was that they sup-
ported the voluntary principle, and yet accepted this grant
from Government? He would tell the Hon. Member. In the
first place, he would receive it because owing to other drown-

stances, he found a meritorious class in a state of misery and
destitution whom this endowment would partially relieve. He
would receive it, beeause he knew the difficulty and the labour,
and the expense of receiving a proper degree of instruction
in the seminaries of Ireland. He was also willing to receive it
for a political reason. The House was well aware that it was
not for the mere paltry consideration of 30,000/. that they ac-
cepted it, but the grant to them had a peculiar interest, for no
matter what party held the reins of Government, they hailed
this as a concession that England had at last met Ireland in
something like a kindred spirit, by recognising the claims of
her Catholic clergy to
_protection. It was in this spirit that'she
accepted the grant. They accepted it not as a great boon to
the mere Catholic party, but as a greater measure of justice.—
( Cheers. ) It was in that spirit Ireland received the grant, and
he prayed Hon. Members in that House who might be dis-
posed to oppose the second reading of the measure, to con-
sider well the consequences of dashing the cup
from their lips. He would ask them if they were
prepared to eradicate the friendly feeling at present existing in
the minds of the Irish towards England.? An Hon. Member
had quoted words which had been attributed to Mr. O'Con-
nell, and said to be delivered by him in Conciliation Hall.
He was reported to have stated—" Conciliation Hall, I thank
you—Agitation, I am: obliged to you—Maynooth ought to
pray for you." He would parody those words. If a Minister
like the Right Hon. Baronet at length were to think the time
had arrived that conciliation should be used towards Ireland—
if he introduced a measure like this, and if that measure
were rejected, no matter under what form their opposition
might have arisen, whether it assumed the form of evangelical
or voluntary—he would say, in that case, that Mr. O'Connell
should get up, and instead of saying, " Repeal—Agitation, I
thank you," he would say, " British House of Conimons, Re-
peal ought to pray for you," for he (Mr. Sergeant M'firphy) was
sure that nothing could give a greater impetus to
repeal than the rejection of this grant to the
College of Maynooth. He would rather, for his part, that the
sum given to Maynooth should be given to the support of all
creeds alike. But was the sum which would be saved out of the
taxes of the country by the judicious distribution of this grant
net worthy of their consideration ? Would the House let the
opinion expressed by a clergyman of the English Church go
forth to the people of Ireland as the sentiments of the English
nation ? Those opinions would be supposed to be correct if
the House rejected this measure. He found the clergyman
he referred to using the following phrases :—He said that he
would draw upon the historical annals of the country to show
the evils which had resulted from the connexion of the Go-
vernment with Popery. He referred to the reigns of Eliza-
beth and her successor, and then he came to Charles the First.
He (the clergyman) stated had made a Popish alliance, and
had brought up up his children in the Popish faith ; and then
he added that the lightning of heaven had blighted the splen-
dour of the English Crown, and that Charles the First had
perished on the scaffold. And then followed the second
Charles. He designated him a weak and sensual monarch,
but not so deeply criminal as to draw down the
vengeance of heaven on his head. Why ? Because
he was not openly declared for Popery. Before that
time was Oliver Cromwell, a guilty man, no doubt—a man of
blood, but who had redeemed his guilt by supporting the Pro.
testant cause. Then he came nearer their own times, for he
came to the time of William IV. Within twelve months after
the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act extraordinary
changes occurred in this country. Soon after the Monarch's
signature had been attached to that Bill he was hurried from
the world. Such was the language of an English clergyman
at a public meeting. He had no hesitation in giving that
clergyman's name—it was Dr. Croly. Now he would
ask what were the deductions to be drawn from these
historical statements ? He meant that if they bad
a leaning to Popery they should take example by
those who had gone before them. He asked them
if they rejected this measure, if they thought it would contri-
bute to the peace and good feeling which it was so essential
Ireland should entertain towards this country 9 He entreated
Hon. Members not to reject a measure which would strengthen
the good feeling which ought to exist between the two
countries.
Sir J. HANMER (who was scarcely audible in the gallery)
was understood to say—The different views that were taken by
the majority of Hon. Members in that House, were such as
to render it difficult for one to satisfy his mind as to the point
of view in which that question was to be taken; according to
his appreciation of the particular merits of the case, he would
vote on the occasion. The question deeply agitated this coun-
try, independently of the spirit that was evinced by the many
petitions which crowded the table of the House ; and whether
the people of England were right or wrong in their opinion,
he felt himself bound to say, that if they had triennial Par-
liaments, or if they had much shorter Parliaments than they
now had, they would have a very larger majority of the popu-
lation against the measure. Reference was made to the time
of Mr. Pitt, when this grant was thought to be expedient.
He would ask them if the present time was at ell compa-
rable with that ? Was the time come to institute a
connexion between the Roman Catholic Church arid
the State ?—( Hear, hear.) What influence would be
gained by such a relation—of what good would it be produc-
tive ? He thought that the only influence whieh they could
have over the leaders of the Church of Rome—the lions of the
fold of Judah, as they called themselves—was to be derived
from that civil power, from their justice and equity, and not
from an ecclesiastical relationship with them. Why enter into
a connexion with them if they were not to exercise some ec-
clesiastical jurisdiction over them ? Supposing they associated
this College with the State, that it was found necessary to bring
that relationship closer, and that it was more strongly pressed
upon them, he would ask, as a practical question, how they
were to pay 3,000 priests of the Church of Ireland? He men-
tioned that number, for he had been told that there were 3,00',
Roman Catholic priests in Ireland, who were employed in the
avocations of ministers of their religion. Well, then, he
would ask, if such were the fact, how were those priests main-
tained? He ventured to say it would be found very difficult
to give an answer; though it would he admitted that they
were never known to be in want. He was one of these who
was ready to admit that the Right Hon. Baronet the First
Minister of the Crown had met the position of Ireland in a true
spirit last year, by proposing that most useful measure, the
Charitable Bequests Acts ; but he ( Sir J. Hanmer) did now
protest against the Government going any further in making
such concessions, or establishing what might be called col-
lateral ecclesiastical establishments, because he conceived that
the Government should confine itself to ecclesiastical matters
belonging to the State. He was one of those who believed
in the wise and sound policy of Sir R. Peel, and he had no
doubt but that his measure of last session, to which he
(Sir J. Hanmer) had alluded, would have a good effect for a
long series of years. The Hon. Baronet concluded by saying
he disagreed in the policy of the present measure, and should
therefore oppose it.
Mr. ROSS next rose to address the Howe, but the noise
and confusien created by a crowd of Members leaving the
House at the moment,. prevented the possibility of his being
heard with anything. like distinctness in the gallery. He was
understood to say that two speeches that he had heard had made
a deep impression on his mind, for he had heard them with
keen attention. One of them was from the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Secretary for Ireland.—(Hear' ' hear )
Before he alluded to them further, he would say
that he looked upon this measure in the light of a
redemption of a pledge that had long been made to Ireland,
and as a part of a great system that would; eventually open up
the vast industrial and commercial resources of that country.
As to the speech of the Hon. Member for Perth. he should
say that he had hoped to hear that Honourable Member
speak in favour of carrying out that justice which he
appeared to prize so much. But he (Mr Ross) could
not help saying that the whole of the opposition to this measure
was not founded upon either reason or justice. In calling the
attention of the House to the arguments used in the speeches
he had mentioned, he would notice but few of them, and
then he would ask the House in what position were
the Irish Roman Catholic clergy before they
were dependant on the English Government?—(Hear. )
The religious objections urged in the course of this debate ap-
peared to him to have no weight at all. Seeing that there was
so much difference between the Presbyterians and the members
of the Church of England, and so much difference between the
members of the Church of England and the Roman Catholics,
and looking at the existence of the regium donum to the Pres-
byterians, he could not see why they could refuse this grant..
He did not give much weight to the argument derived from
the amount of money in this ease ; for if, by this measure they
conferred peace on Ireland, the number of regiments which
they could draw away from it would soon make up for it. He
hoped, that when this measure and others like it
were passed, the differences which so long existed between
different classes of Irishmen would be destroyed, and they
world put their shoulders together and struggle that their
country should be placed on a perfect equality with England,
and, till that equality was attained, he, for one, would not
rest satisfied. He trusted the Right Hon. Baronet would per-
severe in the course he had entered upon, till ho had made Ire-
land united and prosperous, and the strength and right arm of
England.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. GORE and Mr. Hamilton rose together, the
latter for the purpose of moving the adjournment of the
debate but the House having called for Mr. Gore he proceeded
to say that if he considered the present measure as likely to im-
pair the principle of the Reformation he would oppose it as
strongly as he should now give it a warm and cordial
support.—(Hear, hear.) He had always voted for the
grant to Maynooth, and in so doing he theught he had voted for
the principle of the grant, and that there was, therefore, no
new principle involved in the present measure.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that if they had aeted on the principle on which the
Romans acted towards the Gauls, and the Normans towards the
Saxons, Ireland would not be in the position she was now.
Ireland for the last 350 years had desired to participate in the
laws of England, but for 350 years our ancestors had refused to
allow them to participate in such advantages. He hoped this
was bat the commencement of a more liberal and comprehensive
system of legislation towards that unfortunate country. He
gave every credit to her Majesty's Government who had
been actuated by the best motives, and also to that part
of the Opposition which supported them ; and he concluded by
saying that he would give the measure his most cordial sup-
port, and by expressing a hope that it would be brought to
a triumphant conclusion.—( Loud cheers. )
Mr. ALEXANDER HAMILTON moved the adjournment
of the debate.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned.

[ADVERTISEMENT

SUDDEN .DEATH of the MARQUIS

OF DOWNSHIRE.
TO THE EDITOR.

is only when great people fall that the rest of
mankind will reflect on their own situations ; this has
been exemplified in many instances. We are satisfied
that all sudden deaths proceed from a neglected state of
body, and that such dreadful catastrophes would be of
very rare occurrence if the world generally would reflect
on this important point, viz., that all pains or diseases
whatever proceed from some impurity in the blood, which
impurity can only be eradicated by proper vegetable
purgation. It is useless to look to any other remedy.
Every one, when he feels any pain or sickness, should
immediately become his own doctor, by at once taking
an efficient purgative, without going here and there for
different and contradictory medical opinions—this is the
great principle which Hygeists wish to inculcate, and
they care not for the opposition of interested individuals
who oppose it. Hygeists have had ample practical ex-
perience of the truth of it, and all the learning in the
world cannot make it otherwise. It is the grand secret
of health and disease—of life and death. If the truth
could be ascertained we have no doubt that the Noble
Marquis of Downshire had neglected his body, and had
not done that which he ought to have done—he, like
hundreds of other great men, trusted to false science and
learning,* opposed to simple nature and truth, and has
therefore fallen a victim.

We are, Sir, your obedient servants,
MORRISON AND CO.,
For and on behalf of the body of Hygeists,
British College of Health, New-road,
London, April 16, 1845.
* Accomplishments, such as Greek and Latin, &c., have
nothing to do with the cause or cure of diseases.

«,# SALMON FISHING.—Season 1845 will be a dreary
one in the calendar of our fishers, unless the waters yield
better returns than they have hitherto done. The streams
are so very unproductive as scarcely to meet the ordinary
wages. aln,ion are eilliag at Aim ter le. 6tl. per 11:4
begrime Courier.

LAW INTELLIGENCE•
ARCHES' COURT, April 15.

CLOWES AGAINST CLOWES.
This was originally a suit of nullity of marriage by reason of
fraud in obtaining the license, promoted by Mr. Edward Clowes
against Harriet Jones, falsely calling herself Clowes, who had been
married in the name of Emily Harriet Geraldine Terry, and repre-
sented herself as the daughter of Admiral Terry. Mr. Clowes, a
young man, had become acquainted with this person in November,
1840, when she was only 10 years of age, at a certain house in
George-street, Adelphi, where she went by the name of Harwood,
and she agreed to reside with him as his mistress- On the llth of
December, 1841, they were married, she having previously un-
posed upon Mr. Clowes, in June, 1841, a child, of which she al-
leged she had been prematurely delivered, during his temporary
absence, as their own. After their marriage Mr. Clowes disclosed
the fact to his father, and, in order to make him believe that the
child was born in wedlock, by postdating, concurred in altering the
certificate of its birth. The deceptions which had been practised
by Mrs. Clowes having been discovered by the father of Mr.
Clowes a suit was commenced to avoid the marriage, on the ground
of fraud and deception ; but the Court held that there was no error
de persona, and that the misrepresentation of name and circum-
stances was no ground for annulling the marriage. The wife en-
grafted upon the suit a prayer for restitution of conjugal rights,
which was met on the part of the husband by a plea of adultery.
and this plea was in its turn met on the part of the wife by a charge
of malicious desertion by the husband (who had gone to reside
abroad) and of persecution on his part and that of his family and
agents, which have left her in penury and destitution and driven
her, or rather entrapped bier into the commission of adultery with
a person who went by the names of Cooper, Pardy, and Godfrey,
and who kept, or was connected with, a place for the sale of dogs,
called the Canine Repository, in Bury-street, Bloomsbury-square.
The facts of this part of the case were detailed in our report of the
argument. The Learned Judge was of opinion, the fact of adultery
being thus admitted, that the articles in the wife's allegation which
pleaded circumstances whence malicious desertion and persecution
were sought to be inferred were left without proof, or were dis-
proved. These Courts had never decided that malicious desertion
per se was a bar to a husband's suit for a divorce by reason of the
adultery of his wife; the dicta went the other way; but in this
case the point was not raised, as there had been no malicious
desertion, the husband having been rather desirous (as appeared
from his concurrence in the fraud practised upon his father
and by his letters) of sustaining the connexion with his wife.
It was certainly, the Learned Judge observed, a strange and ineX•
plicable thing that Mr. Edward Clowes, the husband, should hare
been imposed upon by the improbable representations of Dire.
Clowes respecting the child—whirls it was clearly proved had been
procured by her from Wales, she having never been delivered of
child—and that he should net have made inquiries into the mattes'.
But this had no effect as a bar to his remedy. With regard to
Mr. Clowes, senior, and his family, no imputation whatever rested
upon them ; they had had recourse to no other measures than were
perfectly justifiable, though the Court might regret that the allow-
ance made by Mr. Classes, senior, to the wife, of 30s. a week, had.
been withdrawn, since its continuance might have prevented this
suit. But it had been withdrawn for very sufficient reasons,
namely, the suspicious conduct of :Mrs. Clowes, in receiving the
visits of an elderly gentleman, who made her presents, and was
once admitted into her bedroom. There was no evidence to shoe'
that Mrs. Clowes had ever suffered from penury or distress ; on the
contrary, she seemed to have had the command of money from
some source. Upon the whole, he had no doubt in pronouncing
that the wife had entirely failed in the proof of her allegation, and
that Mr. Clowes was entitled to the sentence of divorce he prayed

------- -
SURREY SESSIONS-NESTERDA-1.
(Before Mr. PUCKLE, Chairman, and a Bench of Magistrates.)
JOHN CHASE V. TILE REFUSAL OF THE JUSTICES OF THE NEWINGTOS

DIVISION TO GRANT HIM A TICTUALLE:RS' LICENSR.
Mr. Bodkin and Mr. Knapp appeared for the appellant; end
Mr. Wallinger and Mr. Corder for the Justices.
The case has excited considerable interest, in consequence
of the numerous statements which have already appeared in the
papers.
It appeared that Mr. Chase was the landlord of the Black Prince,
Princes-street, Kensington, and had only recently taken possession
of the house. In consequence of the numerous complaints against
the manner in which the house has been conducted, made by the
neighbours to the police, the superintendent of the L division
directed one of his constables to watch the house. and the COn'
stable, in February last, saw a judge and jury club held there on
Sunday evening. There was a great disturbance, and he heard
trials going on very frequently. In consequence of this informa-
tion the superintendent felt it his duty to report the same to the
Magistrates, and on the following day the Justices suspended the
license until the adjournment day. On that day the case was Pile
into before the Licensing Justices in Petty Seesions, when it via!
proved that Mr. Chase permitted gambling in his house, and fa"
fe red Sunday trading to a great extent.
Inspectors Tapp and Ferguson proved that Sunday trading 1)0
been going on since December uo to the last fortnight ; that
there had been disturbances between two and three &a'''.
in "the morning, and there were cries of murder and
Fancy balls and concerts were held twice a week, give
fancy characters, in the costumes of clowns, were seen in front
of the house.
Mr. Matthews, a neighbour, who lived opposite to Mr. Chase;
complained of the great nuisance created by disorderly people 3,
Mr. Chase's house. On one occasion a prostitute, of the name or.
Caroline Turner, came out of Mr. Chase's house between two en!
three o'clock in the morning, in a state of beastly intoxication, en'
it took the united exertions of four men to take her to the station'
house on a stretcher. There were a great many disorderly glee. .
and women in front of the house, who were creating a great di!
turbance, and the neighbours threw up their windows to assert'

what was the matter, there being cries of " murder," Sot.
The Magistrates, after calling on Mr. Chase for his defence, Whi:
merely stated that he conducted his house as well as he peoib.:
could, and denied that he permitted Sunday trading, WO °el
dered to withdraw, when the magistrates unanimously resolved
that the license should not be renewed, against which Mr. Chase
appealed.
The appeal consequently came before the Court to-day, When
evidence to the above effect was produced by Mr. Wallinger on be-i
half of the licensing justices. The Learned Counsel called severl
witnesses in support of the justices, who hilly confinned the
charges brought against the appellant.
Mr. BODKIN next addressed the Court at exceeding great length
on behalf of the appellant, and said if the decision of the Court loi•
adverse to his client it would involve him in utter ruin, l'avii°age
embarked his all in the speculation. Mr. Bodkin said the faegi'
should be
ture never intended teat a licensed victualler
and totally ruined. The 21st section of the Act said that for the
first offence the defendant should be fined, for the second offenCe
higher penalty should be imposed, and for the third complaint the
matter should be referred to a jury, who had power to take aria!
the license. The Learned Counsel then went on to show that
there was not sufficient evidence to warrant the Court below in Witt_te•
holding the license from the appellant, particularly when he h 5"
such fearful interests at stake. The Learned Counsel wild, that bet
t
was not there to justify that it was proeer to hold a judge anee
jury club on a Sunday evening, but Mr. Chase ought to 1,3',
been properly warned of the great impropriety of his conduct, er'",
said that proper notice had not been given the appellant to tb't
effect. The magistrates would take into their consideration t"
the appellant had abandoned the holding of clubs and concert,'
sudden y
and therefore had done all in his power to comply with the Wish!!
of the Court; he therefore hoped that they would see fit to rene.
the license. As to prostitutes, surely those poor unfortunate cree_
tures, who were deserving of great commiseration, were not t°1?!
denied shelter from the pitiless storm, and denied refreshments t:
support their exhausted frames. This he hoped no humane the
gistrate would ever make a ground for refusing a license.
Learned Gentleman concluded a long and elaborate argureentL.ce
v"
stating that the House had been shut up for some time, ;',O
probably the Court would deem sufficient punishment, and AC'
a warning to the appellant for the future.
The Chairman and Magistrates then retired, and after some C°:.;
sultation, the former, on his ret4rn into Court, announced -if
the Court had cone to the unanimous determination to di,ail°
the appeal.

The Decay of Teeth arises from various causes.ll
but, principally, it may be attributed to early neglect'at
health, or the use of tooth powders containing minefi
and other deleterious acids, which give a monttn°i
white:less to the teeth, while'they corrode the enattter,it
—The extreme prevalence of this cause is too
known to need comment. To this fact, indeed, is prim
eip!t!ly to be attributed the long botanical researe..,
+Aiiich happily terminated eoy the mo,t felicitous
ever given to the world for the Preservation of t r
Teeth, Gurus, and Breath, viz.—llowland's Odonto, ,°,
Pearl Dentifrice : this Powder now occupies disti.%
guislied place at the Toilets of the Sovereigns and la
Nobility throughout Europe, while the general denol3i,
for it at once announces the favour in which it is U°
venially held.
fiat(
[ADVERTISEMENT.]—THE EARL OF ALDBORO.,- f.
AND HOLLOWAY'S PILLS ! Aw ASTOUNDING Cnals ;I;
THIS MIRACULOUS MEDICINE, AFTER EVERY OTHEK 3111:0,4
HAD FAILED !—See extract of his Lordship s letter, door
Villa Messina, Leghorn, the 21st February, 1845. *,To 1,.:0)§
fessor Holloway. Sir,—l beg to acquaint you that your k.",b,.
have effected a cure of a disorder in my liver and stonir,,ll
which all the most eminent of the faculty at home, au' ell
over the Continent, had not been able to effect, nay, not et
the waters of Carlsbad or Mamenbad.—Signed, Ahiborouror
These wonderful pills will cure any disease of the liver a
stomach. Sold (also Holloway's Ointment) at Prdejio
Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand (where advice 1110,d
had gratis), and by all medicine vendors throughout the

At the Surrey Sessions on Monday Elizabeth 1055'
~,
a woman of respectability, and widow of a major in the le.
was indicted for cruelty to a female child of six years of the
The evidence went to show that the prisoner had taken
child under her care with the view of adopting it as her ov,emo
She, however, nearly starved the child ; and on witueT
being examined, she was found " Guilty" and sentenced
imprisonment for six months.

BIR TII S. _.e)
On Tuesday-, the 15th inst., the lady of Charles Herm'
Elsley, Esq daughter. -Verd
On the 15th of February, at Bona Vista, in the Cape '
Islands, the Hon. Mrs. H. W. Macaulay, of a son. ,T„,,,0n
On the 4th inst., at Rye-terrace, Peckham, Mrs. D.--
Morris, of a son. 10/
On the 10th inst., at York-terrace, Peckham ••lane, the -
of Thomas Parker, Esq., of a son. of
On the 12th inst., the wife of John Bawtree, Esq., .11*-'

rust., the wire or i uuu 4,........, - .
Colchester, of a daughter. .“. gt
On the 14th inst., at King .street, Stepney, the wife of
William Squires, of a daughter. lc 6
On the 14th inst., at Langham-place, Mrs. Frederic
Cope, of a son. Atoolr
On the 11th inst., Mrs. Christopher Cuff, of Haff---
street, Piccadilly, of a daughter. I tile°
On the 11th inst., at East Bourne, the lady of David -3
Hall, Esq., M.D., of a daughter. f the
On the I Ith inst., at Godmaustone, Dorset, the wife 0.
Rev. T. Ferris, of a son.
___../

MARAIED. ,n3OlO,
On the 12th inst., at West Hackney Church, Mr. T.%
Richard Lawrance, youngest son of Mr. James Lawrall3"ard
St. Helier's, Jersey, to Alicia, only daughter of Mr. Ric
Webster, of Kingsland. drel
On the 11th inst., at St. Mary's, Spital-square, --°(arfp
Trimen, Esq., architect, of Adam-street, Adelphi, to AL
eldest daughter of J. J. Buttress, Esq., of Spitalfield

On the 15th inst., after a short illness, to the inexPr 113
grief of his parents, in the 17th year of his age, Wi
surviving child of Mr. W. C. Evans, Grand Hotel, G°Y
garden.
On the 13th ult., at Bow, Middlesex, Elizabeth, relie
the late Rev. Dr. Newman. Nvaa'
On the 13th inst., Richard, eldest son of Richard
Esq., of Albany-terrace, Regent's-park, aged 22. „jet ford'
On the 14th inst., Edward Chinery, Esq., of Long
Suffolk. 01.111*
On the 14th inst., at Bath-place, Peckham, Sarah
the wife of Mr. John Fearn.
On the 14th inst., at Twickenham, Mrs. E. Davies. 000
On the 12th inst., Emma Josephine, wife of Samuel TA'
Jones, aged 22. toll'
On the 13th inst., at Upper Brunswick-terrace, Ishng
Mr. W. B. Broadwater, aged 34. Off r
On the 9th inst., Oliver Colt, Esq., of RownhanA
shire, aged 85.

DIED

IMINIMMINMOMMVILI•910..11•76•100.11.•••11,
Lor.Plon: Printed and Published by MURDO TOU,)„ lit
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, rof
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the Co'
Middlesex, Wednesday, April 16, 1846.