The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

celibacy. He wished also to deny that it was the precursor to
an endowment. He did no', however, believe that the ano-

.naly of a State Church for the tenth-part of the people of
Ireland could be long endured. It should be pet an end to by
the Government in some way ; and, whether it was by the
voluntary system, or by reconciling the people of Ireland to the
continued existence of it by endowing that which should be
called the national Church, he did not see how that endowment
was hastened by this grant. It would be worth while to analyse
the grounds on which the opposition rested, the elements of
which would be found not only to be heterogeneous,
but absolutely conflicting with one another. The
Non-conformist petitioners concur in the opposition
to the grant, because they thought it was infringing the rights
of conscience to grant any sum of money to another Church,
the tenets of which they did not believe, and because it would
inflict a greater wrong on them than any other class of Pro-
testants. But what did the Protestants say ? That it would
be endangering the establishment. One party opposed because
it would uphold the Irish Church, and the others because it
would tend to subvert the Irich Church. It could not be true
that the same measure would have opposite effects abthe same
inne. He did not believe that it would tend to subvert the
Church of Ireland, nor did he think that that was its intention,
*nil he, as a Protestant himself, would say that opposition from
that quarter was unbecoming and ungenerous. The non-
conformists, if they believed that this may lead to an en•
dowment of the Roman Catholic Church. were consistent,
but he should like to know upon what tenable ground of prin-
ciple or justice the members of the Established Church of
Ireland could object. It could not be because it was an en-
dowment. Could they object upon the ground that the
Church of Rome entertains and disseminates erroneous doc-
trines? No; the Protestant Church could not take up that
ground. No Church that was built absolutely upon the right
of private judgment can set up such a claim, because the very
admission of the right of private judgment implied that the
very Church that asserts such a claim admits, in allowing the
right of private judgment, that it may be wrong, and that its
opponents may be right. A 4 a member of that Church, he
would aver that it must be conceded that the Protestant Church
Establishment was anomalous, in so much as it was not to be

defended by ecclesiastical reasons, but by abstract princi-
ples, and merely upon the ground of expediency. Upon
these grounds he would ask, was it becoming in the
members of the Church of England to come forward to oppose
any provision for the religious instruction of their Roman
Catholic fellow-countrymen? The great bulk of the Irish
people were not to be looked upon as Dissenters. Ireland was
not a case where the people had seceded from the Church, but
where, by brute force, the Church had been thrust upon the
people. Endowment was not the question before them, it was
a grant for educational purposes, and upon that ground he
would support the measure; and he implored the people of
England, upon every ground of justice, generosity, and pru-
dence, so to consider the matter before them. He did not agree
with the Right Hon. Baronet as to the sources from whence
the money was to come ; he would support the motion of his
-lon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, that it should be paid
by Ireland. And he felt that, even if his Honourable Friend
failed in his motion, he would, nevertheless, support the
grant. This was the only measure which could gain
for them the affections of the Irish people; and he would not
take upon himself the responsibility of opposing it. He would
ask those who opposed the measure, were they prepared to leave
Ireland in its present state—a state in which they retained one
portion of their empire as if it were an enemy's country, by
artillery and the bayonet.—( Hear, hear.) And if they were
not prepared to leave her as she was, what measures
were they competent to pass, by which they meant to attach
to this country the affections of the people of Ireland; and it
was essential that they should be attached to this country.
With that country hostile, England would not be safe for a day,
and they would lose that opinion of their strength in other
countries which would be the best substitute for its existence.

. —,..,...,
He did not think that it was too much to say that every petition
vpposed to that grant which was laid on that table would have
the effect of materially retarding those who were negotiating
iven on the very shores of the Pac'fic. He could not, of
iourse, approve of the whole policy of the Right Hon. Baronet
who proposed the measure, and of course he regretted the per-
versity of fortune that compelled him and others under the
guidance of one who appeared to concede to fear that which he
efused to justice. If the Hon. Baronet had net acted under
motives of a higher nature which he attributed to him, if he
brought forward this measure merely through necessity, he
( Sir William Clay) was yet of opinion that he acted right,
and that on that occasion he would have his corclial snpport.
He was bound to say that if they who opposed this grant were
prepared to afford a double impulse to the repeal agitation, and
to renewed declamation, miter than give a few paltry thousand
•tounds to the education of the Irish priests, then let them
hrow out the measure, and touch the Irish on that point in
which they were most sensitive, by telling them that they were
expect no redress from the British people or from the British
House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Let them see the use
already made by Mr. O'Connell of the spirit which had been
manifested in London against this grant. If the Bill were
brown out he should scarcely know how to blame—enemy as
se was to the repeal cause—a renewed agitation of the repeal ;
tie should scarcely know how to hope for the time when a real
mien could exist ; and for himself he should almost despair of
,ver seeing the two countries reconciled.
Lord BERNARD said that, representing as he did a large

•onstituency, and considering the corrupt state of the registries
if Ireland, and recollecting the intimidation that was used and
encouraged by the priests at the last election, he felt he was
lot warranted in expressing any other opinions than those he
vas about to exhibit on the present occasion. However painful
t might be to himself, be was coming forward to express an
,pinion in direct opposition to that Government to which he WAS,
in other questions, enabled to give his support. He considered
that en this question mere personal feeling should be as dust
,n the balance. Before he entered into this question, he would
the attention of the House to one speech which was de-
livered yesterday evening—it was delivered by the lion. Mem-
ber for Cork, who stated that if Hon. Members knew the
state of education in Ireland, they would have known that one
if the boons which were most zealously sought
or was, that Trinity College should be thrown
men to all classes of her Majesty's subjects.
Now, why did he quote that particular part of the Hon. Mem-
ber's speech? It was for this reason—because that Hon.
Ilember might be looked upon as an authority in all matters
relating to the education of Roman Catholics in Ireland ; and
uecause it would appear by the Hon. Member's speech that the
Roman Catholics of Ireland were ready to abandon not only
,he education of the middle classes, but to make the most im-
nortant and extraordinary sacrifices rather than yield up their
right to political agitation, or the power of aiming another
blow at the University of Dublin. But now let him (Lord
Bernard) state why it was that he opposed the present measure
If the Government. It was for this reason amongst others
r hat he had always opposed the grant to Maynooth,
and he had yet to learn why he should not do so now. He
would ask, was he hound by any compact, or fettered by any
tie ? He denied that he was ; and he defied any Hon. Mem •
ber in the House to prove the contrary. Let him ask fur-
,her, was he bound to vote for the grant of a sum of money for
the support of a religion he did not believe to be true, which vote
could, in fact, amount to a vote for the suppression of a reli-
gion which he did believe to be trues Now, let him call to
mind one of the alleged grounds of this compact. He would
undertake to show that it wag, in fact, no compact at all ; and
,n doing so he would not weary the House by referring
t the speeches of Lord-Lieutenants of Ireland in
former days, for this reason—that they did not differ
much from the speeches he had heard delivered in that House.
But let him cad the attention of the House to the fact, that in

the year 1795, this grant to the Roman Catholic College of
thenaoth was made solely for this reason, that the Ronan
Catholic priests had, up to that time, been in the habit of re-
ceiving their education in continental countries, where they
imbibed feelings and opinions not consonant with the princi•
pies of English G ivernment and English feeling; and also be•
,:a.ise at about that time Woulfe Tone and others of his party
were about to establish a demon .atic seminary for the education
of the Roman Catholic priests. There was a pamph-
let published at that time by a member of that party,
which, amongst other statements, contained one to
ti,:s effect:—'That " it would be much better for the
Government to educate the clergy of the Roman Catholic reli-
gion at home, than to send them abroad; and that, therefore,
it would be expedient to give this grant, and that for the pre•
sent, at least, it would look plausible." But in an-
other part of the same work it was stated that
" it never could have been contemplated to continue
uch a sum for the mere purpose of educating the Romish
youth of Ireland, and when such a proposition was proposed
to the Legislature, a considerable number of 3lembers left the
douse." 'Phis was a statement that was made in the year
1799. Let him now remind the House of statements that had
been made upon this sane subject at a later period by Hon.
tlembers_, in what was "ailed the Protestant House of Lords,
and the Protestant House of Commons; and the votes that
had been given in favour of this grant, which it was well known
had never been intended to continue for a longer period than
twenty years. The Hon. Member for Newark had called the
attention of the House to the speech of Mr. Percival in
~onfirmation of the grant who, the Hon. Member con-
tended, had spoken in confirmation of the grant
and that it should be maintained ; but the Hon. Member had
i'oreotten that Mr. Percival had made that speech at a time
when the twenty years had not yet expired ; and, therefore,
.hat argument could not apply.—(Hear, hear.) Another
.peech had been alluded to as made by an lion. Member pro-
posing that this grant should be increased to 13,0001. That

s as in the year 1817 ; but in the Meantime, before that proposi-
tion could be carried out or considered, the Government were
dissolved and a new Government came in; and by that Go-
vernment the grant was again renewed for the usual sum.
But it was not then understood that it was to be compulsive,
for if it were to be looked upon in the light of an unwritten
iompact, and binding as such, why should it not apply with
equal force to the Charter Schools of Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
Why, on the other hand, should the Government of the country
take away from the Established Church in Ireland, revenues
to the amount of 75,000/. per annum, by the suppression of
certain bishoprics in that country.--( Hear, hear.) Upon a
late occasion he (Lord Bernard) presented a petition from
the grand jury of the county of Cork—one of the most im-
portant bodies in Ireland—praying that the Legislature might
extend the same protection to Catholics as to Protestants in
regard to education, and that petition was signed by four
Roman Catholic gentlemen. —( Hear, hear.) He could bring
forward rainy other arguments, to show how dangerous it
would be to carry out the establishment of this principle ; but
he would content himself with those he had already given,
and apply himself to another branch of the subject. Now let
him ask, were there no reasons stated before the House, why
this grant should not be withdrawn? Was it not
notorious that the doctrines taught in the College of Maynooth
were such as were not those that should be encouraged by the
British Government? Was it not well known that the Ro-
man Catholic priests were the leaders of the agitation that had
spread all over Ireland about two years ago? The great public
meetings that then took place were led on by the Roman
Catholic priests; and, therefore, those clergymen must either
have approved of these meetings being held, or they had not the
power to restrain the people from attending them. And if, on
the one hand, the Roman Catholic priests were the leaders of
those meetings, then would the House be holding out a bonus
for the promotion of that agitation ; or, on the other, the Go-
vernment should not assist in aiding the promotion of a reli-
gious persuasion in Ireland that led to such results.—( Hear,
hear.) He would say, also, that he would oppose this motion
on religious g, ounds, though he was aware of the difficulty and
hanger of introducing such a topic in that assembly. Yet let
him remind the House that they had been told that
If this measure should not pas it would have
the effect of increasing the repeal agitation. He
denied that such would be the effect; on the contrary, his
opinion wa, that if this grant were agreed to they would have
concession after concession demanded and proposed. The grant
would, undoubtedly, have the effect of endangering the Estab-
lished Church in Ireland ; and if so, let him ask how long
would it be before it would have the same effect in this country?
—( Hear, hear.) Let the Howe observe how dangerous it was
to spend the public money in support of the Catholic religion
in Ireland at this moment, when it was a well-known fact that
large bodies of those who professed that religion doubted the
truth of it, awl were about to abandon it ; and, therefore, let
him ask, was this H use to come forward, and, under those cit.•
cumstanses, stop the progress of such a reformation in that
country? As to the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield,
he ( Lord Bernard) would not anticipate the result upon the dis-
cuision of it, but be would make a remark or two on the speech
delivered by the Honourable Member for Montrwe, last
night. That Honourable Member stated that a large sum
had been placed at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners for the purposes of the Protestant Church in -Ireland;
but he ( Lord Bernard) begged to say that nothing could be
more totally unfounded. The fact was so much the contrary,
that the Protestant Church in Ireland at that moment was vet y

poor indeed.—( Laughter, and ironical cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) Hen. Members might laugh, but he would repeat it,
tout applications had been teade to those Commissioners for
the repairing of churches that had gone into a most dilapidated
Mate, but the. invariable answer reeisived was that the Commis-
sioner= had no fends. Indeed, in the dionese in which he re-
sided, there were no- fewer than fifty places licensed for rubl:c
worship, its which there was no church, while in others, the
churches were in so dilapidated a state, that he bad seen the rain
falling down throligh the roof during the period of public wor-
ship. Yu-t, though he heard much said of the poverty of the
Roman Catholics of I. eland, let him call upon the House to
look at the poor miserable schools the Protestants of Ireland
were furnished with, and contrast them with the magnificent
cathedrals that the Rom in Catholics had erected for their
place: of public worship.—( Loud cheers and laughter from
the Opposition.) Hon. Members opposite might cheer and
laugh; but if they had seen these edifices as he had, they
would not do sio.—(Continued laughter, in which the Hon.
Member for Waterford, Mr. Wyse, joined.) The Honour-
able Member opposite laughed, but he ( Lord Bernard)
would ask him, was it not notorious that in
addition to the Roman Catholics having erected splendid
edifices for their worship in Ireland, they had actually remitted
10,000/. a-year for the purpose of propagating the Roman
Catholic faith in countries which he (Lord Bernard) was ready
to admit were colonies subject to the British Government. If
such then was the fact, why should not the Roman Catholics
support themselves, and be above demanding any support from
the State? With respect to the statements that had been
made, to the effect that the revenues now enjoyed
by the Protestant Church had been taken from the Roman
Catholics, he begged to say that never was an historical fact
more contrary to the real state of the case.—( Laughter from
the Opposition benches.) He was prepared now, or at any
other time, to defy any man to prove that such was the fact.—
( Renewed laughter.) The Noble Lord then entered into a
disquisition on the history of the events that took place in this
country, in Ireland, in Scotland, and on the Conti-
nent, immediately prior and subsequent to the Pro-
testant Reformation, which, lie contended, plainly showed
that the revenues now in the possession of the Pro-
te,tant Church properly and legally belonged to it,
and concluded this branch of his observations by stating that
the only incident which the Protestant Church had to deplore
was that by which it was for a time deprived of its lawful
rights was when Pope Adrian the Fourth sold Ireland to Eng-
land.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then again adverted
to the present state of the Protestant, Church in Ireland. He
contended that the ministers of that Church were self-deny-
ing, zealous, and disinterested, and were, therefore, held in
the highest esteem by their flocks. He denied that the Roman
Catholics did not seek for supremacy in their Church. Al-
ready they had attained supremacy in the corporations, and if
they got this measure they would never cease until their
ereligion was supreme. Let him ask if the Roman Catholic
lergy were to receive two hundred pounds a year each; how
was the Government to maintain the clergy of the Protestant
Church whe were now so poorly paid ?—( Ironical cheers. )
He would call on the House to pause. Let them consider the
position in which they stood. They were not to imagine that
because no petition had hitherto come from the Protestant
population of Ireland, that therefore they approved of the mea-
sure then before the House. Let the House recollect that
Catholic Emancipation had been granted, and he would ask
whether the effect had been to conciliate Ireland? Concession
and conciliation had only produced fresh demands in Ireland.
He would again call upon the House to pause, for let them
recollect
Facilis descensus Averni
Nodes atque dies pastet atri janua ditis,
Sed revocare gradum, superasque evadere ad auras
Hoc opal, hie labor ed..
Sir 3. EA ST HOPE, who was very indistinctly heard in the
gallery, said he had presented a petition, agreed to at one of
the largest meetings ever held in the town which he had the
honour to represent. One of the allegations of that petition
was, that this Bill, if passed, would prove the first step to-
wards supplanting Protestantism by Popery. He could not
help believing that these assertions were founded in error. He
believed that the alarm which had spread through the country,
with respect to this measure, was entirely unfounded. Vie be-
lieved that no Minister, however strong he might be with re-
spect to numbers in that house, would ever have a chance of car-
rying any measure, whose effect would be to endanger the exist-
ence or stability of the Protestant Church, but that was not the
question they had to discuses. The plain question was, whether
they should govern the Catholics of Ireland in a spirit of jus-
tice, kindness, and conciliation? It was not the question,
whether the institutions of the country would be affected, but
whether eight millions of people were to be cared for? The ques-
tion wau, whether they could resist the demands of the people
for instruction? Those demands which they had a right to make.
What objection could be made to the priests of Ireland being
educated in their own country? Every one knew of the efforts
which haul been made to drive those priests to other countries.
They knew, and every one must know, the beggarly state of
their principal College, and the state of degradation— he might
add, destitution—into which the students there were thrown.
He could not help feeling that it was worthy of remark their
not seeing on those benches to support this measure, that
Hon. Gentlemen, and those who were in immediate connexion
with him, who had led the agitation for repeal of the Legis-
lative Union ; and he could not help feeling that there was
good ground for expectation, if justice was done by this
measure, that agitation would cease. What was Mr. O'Con-
nell's strength but Ireland's wrongs? What was an adequate
and fit redress but kindness, conciliation, and justice? Those
were the views which had influenced him, painful as it might
be, in placing himself in opposition to those who had
sent him to that House. As he entertained these opinions,
and he entertained them strongly, he felt that it would be
unworthy of the confidence of those who had sent him to that
House, if he did not support that opinion by his vote, in spite
of those of his constituents. fie believed that this measure
would have the effect of suppressing a dangerous agitation—
that it would cure complaint, that it would redress grievances,
and inspire confidence in this country on the part of the Irish
people. lie confessed that when a good gift was offered, he
was not very much disposed to complain of the donor. In con-
sidering this question, he did not think it necessary to make
any complaint of inconsistency on the part of the proposers of
this measure, although he regretted that the Right lion. Gen
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so badly 'is-
fended himself with respect to that subject.—( Great laughter. )
But he thought the less said on that matter the better. He
gave credit to those who had embarked in this course for
being actuated by good motives, and he did not stop to con-
sider whether there was consistency in their conduct or not.
There was one thing he could not pass over in this discussion,
and that was, the absence of those Gentlemen from whom
they had so often heard of Ireland's grievances. He thought
it was remarkable that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Cork, and those who were associated with him, were
not in their places to support this measure. lie (Sir John
Easthope) cared not for the expression of approbation —he
cared much more for action. He believed that this measure would
contribute towards the stilling of agitation. The people of
Ireland would be in better temper with the people of England.
When he said the people of Ireland, he :lid not mean the
800,000 Protestants in that country, but he meant the
8,000,000 of her inhabitants. He believed that the 800,000
Protestants of Ireland would be delighted to find that the
8,000,000 were more contended, that they had been taken
from agitation to improvement, and that they had been in-
duced to take a course, which would increase the welfare and
prosperity of this country. He believed that the interest of
the whole empire was involved in this measure, and he be-
lieved that it was one, which every good, every reflecting,
every honest, and every patriotic man ought to support. If
the motion of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Sheffield could be framed so as not to impede this measure he
should give it his suppert ; but if it should have the effect of
impeding this measure, he should feel it his duty to vote
against it.

-Lord JOCELYN said he was aware that his Noble Friend
who had lately spoken, spoke the sentiments of a large portion
of the Irish Protestants, and that he had spoken the sentiments
of a body of men who from his (Lord Jocelyn's) earliest
youth he had been taught to respect. If any stranger had en-
tered that House during his Noble Friend's speech, and who
had been unaware of the subject under discussion, he might have
been led to believe that the measure which was under discus
sioa was one for the abolition of the Irish Church, if not for
the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. He
(Lord Jocelyn) looked upon this measure in no such light.
He looked upon this measure as a measure of justice and true
policy. He felt some difficulty in addressing the House in a
debate which had lasted upwards of four nights, for
he felt that every argument had been put for-
ward both in support of, and in opposition
to the measure. But he felt, at the same time, that in the
position in which he was placed in Ireland, and considering
those with whom he was connected, he was called upon to
state the grounds upon which he gave his wares and cordial
support to the measure which had been proposed by his Right
.Hon. Friend. His supporting this measure was' not incon-
sistent with his previous course. The very first vote which he
had given in that House, and the first speech which he had
addressed to it, were in support of the grant to Maynooth.
Hon. Gentlemen had taxed his Right Hon. Friend, with whom
he had the honour of acting, of changing his principles on
this Bill. But it was an extraordinary fact, that
during the whole course of this debate, not a single
expression of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Go-
vesniment had been brought forward in .proof of this asser-
tion. When his Right Hon. Friend came into office, he
declared that he felt Ireland would be his greatest difficulty.
He subsequently dec'ared that it was his intention to con-
duct the Government of the country firmly but justly, and
in a spirit of conciliation.—( Hear.) A short time after
his accession to office an agitation broke forth in Ireland,
which was likely to lead to a dismemberment of the empire,
and his Right lion. Friend, without having reconrse to any
new measure for the suppression of that agitation, effectually
put, it down by the existing law. That agitation having been
pat down, his Right Hon. Friend in order to keep his pro-
mise of conciliation which he had made, brought forward the
present measure.--( Hear, hear.) For himself, even if he had
not long ago formed his opinion on the merits of this measure,
the arguments which he had heard during the present debate
would have led him to the conclusion to which he had already
arrived as to its justice and policy. He would appeal to any
person connected with Ireland—he would appeal to his Noble
Friend the Member for Bandon, whether the political evils
of Ireland might not be traced to their religious prejudices? He
therefore thought it a wise and sound policy to endeavour
to connect the people to the State by the ties of gratitude.
Seeing that there were seven millions of Roman Catholics in
Ireland, that their priesthood had the greatest influence over
them, whether for evil or good, it appeared to him to be sound
policy to show that they sympathised with their wants by im-
proving the condition of those upon whom the people of Ire-
land looked with so much respect.—(Hear, hear.) If the
Hon. Member for Newcastle had not commenced his speech
by saying that he was opposed to the measure of his Right
ibm. Friend, he (Lord Jocelyn) would be led to believe that
he was a supporter of the measure, for his arguments were
rather in favour of it. He admitted that there was a certain
degree of compact, that there was no new principle involved,
for the principle was admitted in reference to their policy to-
wards the Roman Catholics. With regard to the analogy
which the Hon. Gentleman drew from the conduct of Prussia,
he did not think that it applied, for the people of this country
world not submit to have their children educated by the State.
But with respect to the system of ecclesiastical education, he
did not think the Hon. Gentleman would eentend that it was
different in Prussia from what it was in Maynooth. With
regard to the brilliant speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Member for Edinburgh, he thought the Right Han. Gen-
tleman had no foundation in justice for his taunts upon his
Right Hon. Friend, for he would appeal to that Right lion.
Gentleman himself, or to the Noble Lord the Member for
London, whether he considered himself responsible for the
opinions of his tillowers —for instance, the opinion which were
promulgated at the Corn Exchange. He would give his cor-
dial support to the measure, because he believed it was just,
and that it introduced no new prin iple, and that the
Roman Catholic priesthood were in want of the means of
education. He had been in Maynooth two years ago, and he
could confirm the statement which had been made by his Right
Hon. Friend. He felt that those who had been brought up in
that institution, as they were brought up, could not have any
theywon
strong feelings of attachment for a State which left them in such
a condition. lie believed the religion which he himself pro-
fessed was the true one, and he felt such confidence in its truth
that he had no fears of an additional grant to
itIN
uldhaldeabdee to
the laynooth doing
trusted
an any
hianti.puryyreton:ihtatorfeluignioitnin,
heretofore, the Protestants and the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land.-(
!leer, hear.) uniting
whip
oreh
closely
Ai r.
question,nßl bGileeaTsuasie the principlediiewasanx on
i°u3t9test a few words on
thiswhich he she 17 I give his
vote had not et been fully stated to the lieu ie, au I also be.