The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-02 00:00:00

propose in the 13th clause. The House would recolleA
that on a form,r ocea-don he had stated that there was ar^
obvious legal imperfection in the clans., as sent from:
the House of Lords. The clause as it now
fell short of the announced intention
of her Majesty's Government, for her 111 a,:.
jesty's Government had declared that it was thei:r 'lvo"' •
giveto every facility to the voluntary endowment,- the
onlyllil
y of the dignitaries of the Church of Rome, but t
parochial priests—'tot only those now in possession, till
all others succeeding. The clause as it was now fram
gave effect to the former part of that intention with re--
ferenee to the now officiating clergymen, but it failed:
with respect. to those suceeedinge and it would, there-
fore,
be necessary to introduce words to remedy this=
defect. The clause as it at present stood concluded'
with the feelowing words, " in trust for auy rerson
ire
Holy Orders in the Church of Rome, and for building
a residence for his use, so long as he shall have the
torah superintendence of any district or cong.regatiore
professing the Rotten Catholic faith, or in trust ,tor anY'
person in Holy Orders or a higher rank than pal esehial
priest." It was proposed to strike out those is: esrlet
and in their steed to introduce the follewing,—" Or .ariY
Archhiehep or Bishop, or other preen in' Holy Orelere
in the Church of Rogue officiating in any district, or
having the pastoral cuperi.ltvacioire of any eonee'efe
eon prefsis.:ine the Rowell Cetholic religion."
Mr. HA lle'OUR VERNON exFressed,his satisfac-
tion with the alterations e hich lied been made in the
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to bear the ex'
planation of' the Right lion. Gentleman. On reading
tte!s Bill it appeared to him to be a Ivry useful
one, and he was sorry to see that there were
some wards introduced into the measure which
rendered ti;et Bill somewhat imperfect, at • the
same time it dia :lot seem to him that the words bad -
been introduced any offensive object, and, there.,
fore, he was glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentlem'es
intended to propose the aiterations which he had sul`e
mitted to the House. He could not understand why'
they should not plainly mention the titles " Archbishop.
and Bishop of the Church of Rome." They could not
be ignorant that there were Bishops and Archbishops or
the Church' of Rome, and he could not conceive what
objection there was to naming them. He was happY
that it was now proposed to introduce these words. With
respect to another point, the specifying the Roman Catholic
Bishops and Archbishops as presiding over certain
dioceses, he should not wish to raise that controversy at
present ; on another question, it might be necesary to
acknowledge in the Roman Catholic prelates the ;autho-
rities presiding in certain dioceses ; but it would be in-'
politic to raise the question on this measure, and it
would not be wise to have inserted such words in the
Bill. The measure was limited to certain objects ; the
facli4ating the possession of endowments by Romani
Catholic clergymen of Ireland ; and it being conceived`
in the spirit of justice, he thought it was one with_
which the House would generally agree.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL expressed his satiefaetLen
at what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet. Ile
valued the spirit in which the alterations had been glade
more than the alterations themselves. He did not -siege
to offer any sort of factious opposition to the Bill ; but,
on a measure affecting the religion they professed, he
and his Hon. Friends had thought it necessary faire
and openly to eseeress their opinion upon it.
The O'CONCiII .139 N also expressed the satisfac-
tion he felt at the modi&ation introduced by the Go- •
vernment. Having been one of those who voted against the
measure on its second reading, he felt bound to state that
he had received cotnmunieatione from those whose opi-
nions he was bound to respect, beet still he appreciated
highly the improvements that had b.
'en introduced into
the measure. Yet he must confess he thought that dif-
ficulties might arise from the interference of laymen-
with matters connected with the discipline of the Church.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought it of the utmost insport-
ance that one of the five Commissioners should be it Bi-
shop or Archbishop of the Roman Catholic Irish
Church, but as he understood it, that concession had tett
been made ; he trusted, however, that, upon esinsidera-
the Government, would accede to the preposition.
He ;yas glad to hear that the making the Catholic eiergY
of frehe.ed stipendaries of the Government had
abandoned. He thought the proposition of his froth.
Friend oppomis'e'e that after the words "Bishop and Art
bishops.'should be added " the other dignitaries of the
Church," was a one, and might he well adopted. .
Sir R. PEEL thoug:ht it. would be more in consonance -
with the spirit in which the Government had introduced
the measure to *leave the discretion of the Crown
yin-
fettered. He !meted the 11.4.1u5e would adopt the altera-
tions proposed by his Right, Hon. Friend, as they in-
eluded the names of the archbishops, and bishops, aiid
clergy, of the Church of Rome. felt no doubt .that
if the discretion of the Crown was I,:ft 'unfettered, the
appointments under the Bill :You'd iesl made in the :1
same spirit that had dictated the introdiZetion of the
measure. :t?!
by
Mr. BELLEW said the alterations proposed.. their. ;14,,
Right Hon. Baronet: had. taken away the objectiol2B heq?.;•:.'o, I
had urged the other night.to the :measure. lie though'
the Bill would now work well, and lie ...thanked her Mit, .1/
jesty's Government for it.
Mr. F. SHAW said that no objection had been made.
to, this Bill on the part of the Prote.tant population
Ireland, and he certainly thought that objections might;
have been more jnstly expected from them than from
those from whom the had emanated • the other evening 4,
With respect to the proposed alterations, .be was not in- ,
dined to quarrel about words, although. he believed it
was rather a new thing to find Catholic Archbishops and
Bishops named in an Act of Parliament, at least, since,
1829. He believed that the old Board of Charitable Be,
quests had, on the whole, discharged its duty fairly,'
and that it had given satisfaction even to-
the Roman Catholic population •of Ireland. WitlW
respect to ase observation made by the fine?
Lord of the TreasQry, he wished to observe, and in the
same spirit, that, in ti -s opinion, it would be better that
the Government should be left altogether unfettered as
to the appointments. On that ground he objected to '
the second clause, rendering it incumbent on the Go-
vernment to have five persons of one religion and five of
another. It was calculated to keep up distinctions which
had better be forgotten; and it might be found practi-
cally inconvenient. Suppose the respectable class afrr
Roman Catholics were to agree not to accept the ar
ointments ? The measure could not work at all. He did
not object to the fact of even six or seven ROman Catho.
lies being on the board, if they were appcJiated irre-
spective of their, religion, but he objected to five being
appointed by Act of Parliament ; and he thought the
Bill would work better if thb appointments were left in e
the hands of the Government. He also approved or tilt'
suggestion of an Hon. Friend of his, that questions re,- ,
dating to the discipline of the Church should be referred,
to a Committee composed of members of the Established
Church in Ireland:
Mr. SHEIL thought that the sentiments which had
been expressed by the Right Honourable Gentleness) e,
did him great credit ; and he would not be instru- A
mental in breaking into the harmonious spirit which
pervaded the debate. --(Hear, hear.) He thought the
Government had acted more than wisely in mskiaf4
these alterations, and that they deserved the greatest ,
credit for their conduct. It was said it was a mere affair
of words, but a principle was oaten involved in a word, ,
and by the use of one single expression in this Bill, thel
had acknowledged a principle which might hereafter
lead to the most valuable results. Th ey had a precedent;
for the use of the term " Catholic Bishop "iii the esti-
mates, in which a sum of 1,0001. was atonally voted to
the Catholic Bishop of Quebec, and a smali'er sum to the
Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland. lie wished
air
majority of Roman Catholics on a Commisetion which ,
would have to deal with the property cef Roues° "
Catholics ; and he wished a majority of ecclesiastic*
when the matter to be decided was of a spiritual or doe'
trinal nature. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read le
letter from an Irish Roman Catholic Archbishop, will°
stood high in the opinion of men of all parties in th°
country, and in that letter he said, " I consider the Or
clause most objecionable, because it gives laymen a Coll°
trol over religious matters ; and if the Bill passed, eon-
taining that clause, it would be considered are infringe, .
went on the Catholic Church." As far as ttruporw
matters were concerned, he (Mr. Sheil) would have a°
objection—nay, he would prefer a majority of laymei'
but in ecclesiastical matters he was entirely of the. opinie?
of the Right Rev. Prelate whose opinion he had quote"'
Mr. D. BkOWNE took nearly the same view, as a°
Right Hon. Gentleman. He thought the Bill was 11.13
unjust interference with the doctrines of the Catholiee
faith, at the same time that he gave full credit to th
spirit in which the Government bad introduced it.
Mr. WYSE approved of the general provisions of t"0
Bill, but thought the number of Roman Cathoiitc9°A
the Committee ought to be increased. He
the best course would be to choose three judges i 0 al
ferently from the bench, who would form doe le r,
element in the board. It was only right and Trellei,
that there should be a considerable number of eeellic
mac-5 on the board, and In-4 would suggest, t bat
Catholic visitors of the College- of Maynooth—the Arfte
bishop of Asesnagh, the Archbishop of Dublin., and of •
Earl of Fingal, should be members of the Boartahl,B
Charitable Bequests. This woult.l amply satisfy
people of Ireland.
The House then went into Committee on the
Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he had an amendroe/lilt
on the paper to omit from the clause the words, for
the judge of her Majesty's court of prerogativtl_,V
causes ecclesiastical and court of faculties in Irelalle";$
but owing to the fair manner in which the Govern Dot
had come forward with respect to this Bill he would.
press it. ad°.
Mr. WYSE objected to the judge of the prer'og!,lo.;
court being appointed a member of the Board of
citable Bequests in Dublin.
Clause 2 was agreed to.'
Clair 3,4, and 5, were also adopted, without dir
cussion. On clause 6 being proposed;
Mr. S. O'G23I.IIEN moved, in line 36, after the v
" Ireland," the insertion of these words:—" Which !,,Pee
be in question before the said Commissioners shall:
referred to a Committee of the said Commission to
consisting of those Con: tr toe'
said Church, and that all int;
missioners who belong
discipline." hers concerning the doe
Sir J. GRAHAM could not aCcede to the pre:- iteed
the subject ° •
as he thought it far better to lea:e Comm
discretion of the Crown than to tie the Corium
down to any particular line of action.
Friend SHAW thought the proposition ef
a most reasonable one, but he would stete
• •
Hon. Friend not to press it to a division. .
_eea
Air. M. J. O'CONNELL said ghat lie vvi" re as
Gentlenat,
thee security ehould be taken to make this measure
perfect as possible. He hoped the Hon.
would not divide the House.
f the f $l,l
After a short discussion the amendment was
Mr. SHEIL proposed that three out of she se„.ol
Roman Catholic members of the Commissiotin alit v
be Archbishops or Bishops, of the Ben,____s`-'69xy: t
Church. He was sure that this would_
n"F lci
make the Bill efficacious in Ireland. withdrai fro;
vtlllll
Sir R. PEEL hoped the Right Lion. Gentleman z
1