The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TFIURSDAV EVENING, APRIL 17, 1845.

cause he believed he would find himself ou this occasion in the
same lobby with those from whose principles he entirely dis-
sented. And, atter the speech of the Noble Lord the Member
for Bandon, he thetight that any man who should vete on the
same side with him ought to explain his grounds for doing so, for
anything more intolerant, he might say insane, with regard to the
policy which ought to be pursued towards Ireland he had never
heard—( Hear)—and he could not believe it till he had heard
it that any person coming from Ireland would have used
such language.—( Hear.) He did not think that this question
should be favourably or unfavourably regarded on account of
the party from which it proceeded: The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had been charged with inconsistency with regard to
this measure, but he thought that the grounds for that charge
arose from the unfortunate circumstances connected with the
late Opposition, and which were of such a nature that he could
not, when in power, propose any good measure without
being charged with inconsistency of conduct,—( Hear, hear. )
He (Mr. Bright) should consider the measure on its own merits,
without reference to party. His opposition to the measure was
grounded on his ob;ection that the public taxes should be made
to contribute to the support of any institution purely ecclesias-
tical, or the rearing of the priesthood of any particular sect.
He opposed it because, from all he could learn from both
sides of the House—from the public press—and even the
organs of the Ministry, there was no argument used in defence
aonfdthiam
the present
of all
measure which would not be as valid in defence
(, .
of further measures, not for the endowment of the Roman
Catholic College of Maynooth only, but for the endowment
hsi
Hear
hearnett e, d
"andw o
i that
h,
oh.
Church in
England and Ireland. ___He
admitted that the principle of the argument which justified
the original grant would be good to the same extent to justify
the present vote. The Right Hon. Baronet said the principle
was already conceded, and that the question now was as to a
difference of a few thousands. But in ten or twenty years
hence some Prime Minister would stand up and say
that in 1795 the principle was conceded, and again
in 1845, and arguing from those two cases it would
be easy to demonstrate that there ought to be the es-
tablishment of a new Church in Ireland, and this adding to the
monstrous evils which had already flowed upon Ireland from
one Church connected with the State.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet paid no great compliment to the Roman
Catholic gentlemen of Ireland when he said that the grant of
9,0001. was sufficient to damp their generosity. If 9,0001.
damped their generosity 27,0001. would lie likely to destroy it
altogether ; and when he recollected that the Roman
Catholic gentry in Ireland paid no income-tax—
(Cries of " Hear, hear" )—no property-tax—no assessed
taxes.—( Hear, hear)--He thought that it ought not to be
altogether impossible or unlooked for, that they should support
a college for the education of the priesthood of a religion to
which they were so much devoted.—( Hear, hear.) But he
also objected to the measure in another point of view—a point of
view which was totally opposed to that of the Hou, Member for
Leicester, who approved of the measure because it
would soothe the discontent of Ireland. Did that
discontent arise from the priests in Maynooth
not being sufficiently well educated ? He thought it arose
more from the fact of one-fourth of the population being
paupers, and there being no regular employment. That was
a state of things which was most disastrous, and he should not
like a measure which would have the effect of making the
wrongs of Ireland less known to the people of Ireland. One
great means of influence possessed by those who agitated the
wrongs of Ireland was to be found in the support which the
Roman Catholic clergy gave to the various associations which
had for their object the removal of those wrongs. His objec-
tion to the Bill was that it would tame down agitation—it was
a " sop" given to the priests—it was " hush-money," that they
might not proclaim the wrongs of the Irish people to the whole
country, to Euroise, and to the world. The Protestant Church in
Ireland was at the root of the evils of that country ; and the
Irish Roman Catholic priests would thank them more for sweep-
ing out that foul blot than if they established their own church
alongside of it.—( Hear, hear.) They had everything Pro-
testant in Ireland—they had a Protestant clique dominant there
—they had a Protestant Viceroy, who distributed all the places
and emoluments of office amongst that clique—they had Pro-
testant Judges who polluted the stream of justice.—( Cries of
" Oh, oh.") They had Protestant magistrates, before whom
in a thousand cases no Catholic peasant could hope for justice.
Renewed marks of dissent.) They bad Protestant ex-
terminating landlords, whose exterminating principles chiefly
fell upon the Roman Catholics upon their estates.--( No, no. )
They had more than that--they had a Protestant soldiery who,
at the beck and command of a Protestant priest, killed a son
even in the presence of a widowed mother.--(" Hear, hear,"
and marks of disapprobation.) Why, these things were
notorious —he merely stated them without bringing
any proof to establish their accuracy—( Hear, hear)—
but the person who was not convinced of their truth
must have paid very little attention indeed to passing events.—
(Hear, hear.) The consequence of all this was, the extreme
discontent of the people of Ireland; and because they were
not prepared to take those measures which would be really just.
towards Ireland, and do away with that Protestant Establish-
ment which was certainly the most disgraceful institution which
existed in Christendom. Because that House was not pre-
pared to do that, it was going to muzzle the watch-dogs of the
people, and to take from Air. O'Connell the sympathy of the
priests, in rousing the people of Ireland to a sense of their
wrongs. They were going to give the priests of Ireland a
little more of Latin and of Greek, in order that they might
become as tame as the priests of Suffolk and Dorset, who,
when the horizon was blazing around with incendiary fires,
had not dared to speak of the wrongs of the
people amongst whom they lived. (Hear, hear.)
And when pauperism was staring them in the face, the priests
would not dare to assist in wresting from an oppressive Go-
vernment those rights to which the people had a just claim.
He objected altogether against the system of paying priests
for any purpose, under any circumstances, or at any time what-
ever. Nothing could be more disastrous to civil liberty—
nothing more injurious to religion itself, than such a system ;
and if they wanted to make the Catholic priesthood of Ireland
as useless for all practical purposes as the paid priests of their
own Establishment, he asked them, by all means, not only to
give this 26,0001. a-year, but as much as the Government
could induce the House to grant. His firm conviction was
that Ireland suffered from one Church, and not from
having two churches. He admitted that equality must
be obtained by the abolition of one or by the establish-
ment of the other, for whilst there was a Church with
a small congregation and overpaid ministry, costly establish-
ments and little work, it was impossible they could have peace
and contentment in that country. But this measure, notwith-
standing all that had been said by Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
WAS for the purpose of staving off the necessity to which they
had nearly arrived, of making some change in the Establish-
ment. If it were possible to give to the Catholic priests a por-
tion of the public funds, as they had already given the regium
donuts to the Presbyterians of the north of Ireland. they
would find them united with the Established Church, as the
Presbyterians then were, against any step taken for the pur-
poso of overturning the whole system of Church and State in
that country. He was of opinion that the experience of a
State Church was net of that favourable character
which would admit of their going further in that
direction.—( Hear.) They had a State Church in this
country, and many excellent men were connected with its
ministry, but from time immemorial a spirit of persecution,' of
a most deplorable and injurious character, had existed, and
even now did exist, pressing with relentless malignity, as in
the cnse of an unfortunate shoemaker in Cambridge, who re-
fused to pay, out of his hard earnings, some 16s. or 18s. for
Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.) This poor man was pursued
from court to court with a relentless spirit, which, one would
hope, did not exist at this period. Some Hon. Gentlemen
applied hard words to the Catholic Church, but they should re-
collect that all the errors which they attributed to it, found a
home and awarm welcome in the EstablisheciChurch. In Wales,
three-fourths of the whole people were dissenters from that
Church. In the manufacturing districts of Lancashire and York-
shire, the Established Church was but an unwieldy machine,
unable to minister to the growing wants and intelligence of
the people. In Scotlaitel, where the most perfect model of a
church establishment was said to exist, they had there a Seces-
sion Church—a Relief Church—a Free Church, and that which
the State upheld by compulsion—the Residuary Church. If
the English, and Scotch, and Irish Churches of this description
did so little good—if they had been productive of such serious
evils, he would ask whether it was proper they should do any-
thing for the establishment of another? If he were at all in
favour of this endowment, he would vote fur this Bill with all
his heart. He believed that if the principle of endowment
was right, a more just or wise measure than the present was
never introduced to the Parliament of this country—
( Hear, hear)—because he had no doubt that the effect
must be in some degree to create a kindlier feeling
on the part of the people of Ireland towards the Government.
—( Hear, hear.) lie regretted as much as any man could
regret that there should be anything in the agitation against
the Bill that tended to impair that feeling.—(Hear, hear.)
There were two parties opposed to it. One party represented
by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House—they
stated that they considered the Catholic faith as a thingt
whenwhich
should net be established, or helped by the State ; but
their own Church was absorbing millions of the public money,
whilst millions of their countrymen refused to enter its doors,
he asked how could they for a moment object to the passing of
the of non-con-
ttohitshmatecashuurreehwhiicnhlwreoluanhdl gtnivewhsioethnentsouratoonfs sohfowthoef
paesosipslteancoef
that country belonged ? There was another p
afonrdmhi set sw
ai
sorryG rea Great Britain
osa y ( t who
wo
ui
dw ebree
ottohiniumutetaso measure,
that these .non-conformists allowed a spirit to enter into their
feel, the force of that great principle of nonconformity for which
their forefathers struggled.—(Hear, hear. ) A large class,
agitation, which showed they did not understand, or did not
more especially a portion of the esleyan body, did not re-
pudiatepersisted in agitation, it ought to be against the principle of the principle of endowment ; if those who remained
en-
dowment altogether. When the Dissenters looked back to all
and of the world, if they did net come
their forefathers had suffered, even within a late period, they
would be so recreant to their own principles as to merit the
anocirndseidd
. and dissent from and
that
hteheheliemveeadsuthree
priinncipelveeroyf stage
contemptforward
a nodf this
apply House,
their
own principle
oppose, to the utmost of their ability, the measure now
under the consideration of Parliament. He ( Mr.
opposition on any simply on this ground,,
Bright) would
endow-
ment was most unjustifiable and injurious to the country.
Govern-
ment—whether on that of the Right Hon. Baronet, or any pre-
ceding or succeeding one—there was no attachment to party or
Government which would induce him for one moment to tam-
per with what he held to be the greatest and dearest principle
which any man or body of men could take up.—( Hear, hear. )
Whatever might be the effect of his
When he looked back at history, he saw that all they possessed
of liberty did not is
oppose
• sue from the portals of ath .dral c e s and parish
churches, but from the conventicler
.; and when a good and
liberal measure was to be carriedo in the House, it was generally
carried by the representatives the non-conformists of Great
Britain. They must see from thef
past and the present, that State
religions had been always opposed o civil and religious liberty;
that they, in a great measure,tdestroyed the vitality of religion ;
and, holding these opinions, it was inspossi
•
ble he could give a
vote which should in the smallest degree give any assistance to
wawa. In conclusi h
the principle of endo
that in II on, e would say to
the Dissenters of England a %position to this or any
such measures they should form no union—make no alliance
with men in favour of endowment—they should stand on the
and unassailable principle of non-endowment , great, pure,
that they should manfully contend ;and if they continued to do
the
so, the time might come—nay, d time would come--when
that principle would be adopte by the Legislature of the
country.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. Member had charac-
terised
of the Noble Lord the Member
the speech for Bandon
in terms which, if they had fallen from any other Hon. Member,
he should have considered as being rather strong ; but t ap-
peared that they were applied the i
premises rather
latter both than to
the conclusion, for in the seemed to agree. The
Noble Lord having displayed considerable knowledge of the
subject as well as theological ability,
he was at first surprised to
ad
hear such terms applied by the Hon. Member ; but when he
had listened to some of his statements his surprise ceased, for
the Hon. Gentleman appealed to English history, and asked
what traces of religious liberty were to be found in connexion
with our cathedrals and churches? Whys was it to the con-
venticles of the English nation that we owed Magna Charta ?
( Hear.) He could not congratulate his lion. Friend the
Member for the University of Oxford upon such an ally as the
Hon. Member for Durham.—(Hear, and a laugh.) But to
pass from that Hon. Member, who certainly spoke under very
unfavourable circumstances to himself, he would endeavour to
address himself to the subject immediately before the House.
He was one of those few Tory Members who, when in
the year 1843 the affairs of Ireland were discussed
at great length, and under circumstances of no ordinary
gravity in that House, ventured to express a strong opinions
that there were remedial measurers, which a Tory Minister,

poor indeed.—(Laughter, and ironical cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) Hon. Members might laugh, but he would repeat it,
that applications had been made to those Commissioners for
the repairing of churches that had gone into a most dilapidated
state, but the invariable answer received was that the Commis-
si•oners had no funds. Indeed, in the diocese in which he re-
sided, there were no fewer than fifty places licensed for public
worship, i❑ which there was no church, while in others, the
churches were in so dilapidated a state, thathe had seen the rain
falling clown through the roof during the period of public wor-
ship. Yet, though he heard much said of the poverty of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, let him call upon the House to
look at the poor miserable schools the Protestants of Ireland
were furnished with, and contrast them with the magnificent
cathedrals that the Roman Catholics had erected for their
places of public worship.—( Loud cheers and laughter from
the Opposition.) Hon. Members opposite might cheer and
laugh; but if they had seen these edifices as he had, they
would not do so.—(Continued laughter. in which the Hon.
Member for Waterford, Mr. Wyse, joined.) The Honour-
able Member opposite laughed, but he ( Lord Bernard)
would ask him, was it not notorious that in
addition to the Roman Catholics having erected splendid
edifices for their worship in Ireland, they had actually remitted
10,0001. a-year for the purpeee of propagating the Roman
Catholic faith in countries which he ( Lord Bernard) was ready
to admit were colonies subject to the British Government. If
such then was the fact, why should not the Roman Catholics
support themselves, and be above demanding any support from
the State ? With respect to the statements that had been
made, to the effect that the revenues now enjoyed

such as Strafford, Tyrconnell, and Pitt, would not have ob-
jected to ; and who, when her Majesty's Ministers stated in
reply that concession had reached its utmost limits, backed
that opinion by an hostile vote. He now, therefore, thought
it right to come forts ard, not shrinking from bearing his share,
humble and insignificant as it might be, of that odium to which
her Majesty's Ministers were subjected, and to vindicate to the
be,t, of his power the course they were taking.—(Cheers. )
He felt that in the present. wreck of parties, and the general
confusion of all classes of men, it was a matter of no ordinary
difficulty to form a definite and distinct principle of action, and
to carry that principle consistently into execution. But he did
not think it impossible to overcome that difficulty, and he would
endeavour to elucidate the position, which, as a member of the
English Church, he thought he could, consistently, take on
this question, and to reply to some of the arguments which had
been advanced against the Government proposal, with but one
great assertion, which combined in such an inharmonious
concert of opposition to this measure all classes of Pro-
testant Dissenters, he had no concern—he meant that
assertion that the Roman Catholic religion was the
religion of anti-Christ, and that, therefore, any support of
the College of Maynooth was treason against Christianity.—
( Hear, hear.) Those who held that opinion were not only
right, but were imperatively called upon to wage the war
they were waging against this grant. But as no reasoning
would have any effect upon such a conviction, he should pass
from that consideration, contenting himself with asserting that
the Church of England nowhere imposed so tremendous a
belief upon its members, and that he was altogether uninflu-
enced by it.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member
for Bandon had represented the Roman Catholic Church in
Ireland as in a schismatical position. But, even admitting it
was, he thought no one on looking to history could venture to
deny that it was they—the people of England, the Puritans of
Elizabeth and of Cromwell, the inventors of the penal code—
they who gave that nation an English-speaking clergy, and
who were at least partially responsible for that schismatical
position. It was in vain that he looked into history for a pre-
cedent to show that the Church of Rome in Ireland could now
he looked upon as guiltily schismatical; nor if he looked into
the formularies and doctrines of our Church, or read the
works of her greatest divines, did he find anything which should
make him think that he was acting disloyally towards her in
supporting the proposed grant to Maynooth.—( Hear.) That
Church regarded the Roman Catholic Church as a true, though
not altogether a pure branch of the great Church universal,
and he thought that the sentiment contained in the following
lines could not be too often repeated :
" Speak gently of our sister's fall ;
Who knows but gentle love
May win her at our patient call,
The surer way to prove ?"
( Hear, hear.) But, to come to the peril in which the Irish
Church stood, which had been often alluded to in the course
of the debate, but by no one with such ability and manly
eloquence as by the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire.
That the Irish Church should be imperrilled or her stability
endangered by this grant, he (Lord J. Manners) could not
believe; but, when he said that, he was far from denying
that lie regarded the position of the Irish Church as one of
imminent and great peril. She was indeed in danger; but
it was from herself—from her own children that that peril
had arisen.—(Cheers.) It was not from the Vatican; it was
not from the Jesuits ; it was not from Maynooth ; but it was
from her own sons—from those who would have her separate
herself from the whole of Catholic Christendom, that the
Irish Church was endangered and when he saw, as he did
see the other day, that venerable Prelate who occupied so wor-
thily the see which Jeremy Taylor had filled before him, com-
plaining openly that the faithful clergy over whom he pre-
sided were subjected by the Protestant laity to persecution,
to slander, and to tyranny, he was compelled, indeed, to own
that the Irish Church was in danger; but whilst he thought
so, he was inevitably reminded of the dying words of Arch-
bishop Laud :—" Poor Church of England ! she hath flou-
rished, and hath been a refuge for neighbouring Churches
when the storm was upon them ; but now she is in a storm
and strait herself, and God only knows whether or how she
shall get out ; and worse than a storm from without, she is
like an oak cleft to shivers by wedges made out of its own
body, and that Church, which all the machinations of
the Jesuits could not ruin, is fallen into danger by
her own."—( Cheers.) For these considerations he
felt free as a Churchman to vote either for
or against the grant. When he considered the question on
the grounds of state policy, he refused to be precluded from
supporting the grant by the assertion of the exclusive Pro-
testantism of the State. Those who liked might refer all the
glory and renown of the old English monarchy back to the
Dutch conquest of 1688, which subverted it, but he claimed a
right to ascend higher, and to consider it just as if William 111.
had died Stadtholder of Holland.—( Hear, and a laugh. )
What was the special form that the question then assumed?
They found that for the last fifty years 7,000,000 of Irish Ro-
man Catholics had been ministered unto by a priesthood edu-
cated in Ireland, and so educated at the express desire of the
State. Be had said " express desire" of the State ; but he
ofat
for
rodßuntgoohmhtat
Roman
eecy
mightmabth.gohl
Catholic
hh
theiraavvp eeenmade u
priests
saidalabb yros,
abroad,
o
laws,
dt,h fe
ba whichcuos
ttinifbl
forbade
yrusbetl
asrvdioeonerngy
the
hmf
etehaeducation
expression,s w h State;"i
the State could devise, was the foreign education of t(hmHoeßvareoci,
hbl
ewould priestsL o Lord
dmp theoe srthAa
ipsedulouslyre
nLpirvseoevnireperodoeHldhe. —nad.
fmhoeraanrr Catholic
ralthshoweliiNed
Mem-
bers of that House as to the extraordinary policy which the
English State thought it wise to pursue upon that subject.
They were now told, however, that Irish Roman Catholic
priests ought to be educated abroad. He wanted to know
if those who said so were prepared to show any funds and
colleges in existence by which that education could be
obtained.—(Hear, hear.) The returns to which he had
alluded would, he imagined, show that when at the close
of the late war a claim of 160,090/. was made upon the
French Government to compensate for the loss of funds
devoted to Roman Catholic educational purposes, that great
man who had been appointed referee upon the occasion—the
Duke of Wellinton—was compelled to strike his pen through
that item, and` to declare, that as the law of England then
stood, that sum of money must be altogether lost and con-
fiscated.—( Cheers.) What were the arguments which were
adopted on the ground of state policy to prevail on them to
discontinue this grant? It was said, that the experiment of an
Irish education for the priesthood had now been tried for 50
years, and that it had turned out a failure. It was very easy,
however, to cry out that it was a failure, and it was very easy
to declaim againtt the dirt and disloyalty of Maynooth, and to
draw striking comparisons between the education and manners
of the old foreign priests and of those of the present day; but
he (Lord J. Manners) doubted, in the first place, whether that
failure were so great and palpable as it had been described ;
ly, whether, even if it were so great, the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government might not be justified in laying
the blame rather at the door of St. Stephen's than at the
door of St. Patrick's ; and, 3dly, he doubted whether the
course which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed, to take to
remedy that failure for the future might not be a wiser one
than that which the opponents of the grant advised.—( Hear,
hear.) But as to the failure ; what was it ? Why, that the
college in which they educated 400 young men at 9,0001. a-
year did not possess all the learning of Padua, mingled with
all the graces of Paris ! It had been said further, also, that
the Maynooth clergy were deficient in loyalty ; that they
did not inculcate those principles of passive obedi-
ence and non-resistance to the laws which they should
wish to see. He (Lord J. Manners) denied that
that was the fact to any. great extent, and those pas-
toral letters which this winter had proceeded from the
Titular Archbishops of Armagh and Dublin might, he
thought, be taken as some proof of the spirit which their
clergy inculcated, and of the doctrines which they taught--
(C/leers.) He might be wrong in his supposition ; but he
believed that no harm would accrue either to Conciliation-
hall or to Covent-garden, if copies of those letters, written
in gold, were suspended in the most conspicuous parts of
those buildings.—(Cheers.) His firm belief was, that it was
not the doctrine taught at Maynooth which prevented the
Roman Catholic presthood from being so successful as, he was
sure, all must wish that they should be in keeping down agita-
tion in Ireland; but, it was the struggles after life—it was
the sense of undeserved inferiority—it was the anomaly of
their position, which broke dawn, so to speak, the theoreti-
cal loyalty which they had learned in the poverty-stricken
cloisters of Maynooth, and which had compelled them, by
means which could not be approved, to seek, if possible, the
political regeneration of their eountry.—(Cheers.) He would
admit then, so far, that Maynooth might be said to have
failed ; but he would ask in all sober seriousness, could it be
said to have failed in the highest and most important objects
for which it had been instituted? Had the priesthood of Ire-
land educated in Maynooth failed in their greatest and holiest
functions? had the morality of the country suffered under
their tutelage? Were the men less sober—the women less
chaste, than under the old:regime ? Or were they, in spite of
all the circumstances of penury and want tinder which they had
been educated, still fulfilling those holy and sacred functions
with a zeal and a devotion arid a self-denial which could not be
surpassed?—( Cheers. ) Were they still, he would ask them,
in the words of his Hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury
to the Irish people—
" The priests—those gentle priests and good, their fathers
loved to hear,
Sole type below, 'midst work and woe, of the God whom
they revere?"
(Loud cheers.) If then, in spite of all the depressing circum-
stances to which he had alluded, they did still occupy that
position, he would entreat the Protestant gentlemen in that
House to pause before they, in contemptuous terms, condemned
the priesthood of a religion which, he feared, from the lan-
guage that had fallen from some, they neither esteemed nor
understood.—( Hear, hear.) Then, it had been said, and
with great force, in that work from which he might be per-
mitted to say that so many of the arguments against this mea-
sure had been drawn—he meant the remarkable and learned
work of Dr. Christopher Wordswerth—(" Hear, hear," from
Colonel Sibthorp)—that whereas by all other countries,
whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, in which the Roman
Catholic religion was acknowledged, and sanctioned, and sup-
ported by the State, every precaution was taken, and every
safeguard was devised, to secure the temporal supremacy of
the monarch against the Roman power—in these realms
alone no such precautions were taken, and that here alone
was " free trade with Rome." " The English nation," it
continued, " pays for Maynooth, and the Pope governs it;
shall not the nation either cease to support or the Pope to
rule it ?" " The priest takes a vow of obedience to the
Roman pontiff; the bishop swears to maintain the Papacy,
and to preserve the rights and royalties of St. Peter; the
archbishop may riot exercise his sacred functions till he
has received the pallium of Rome. Priests, bishops, and
archbishops, are all the vassals of Rome, rather than the
subjects of Queen Victoria, and yet it is to them that we
make over the exclusive management of the establishments
fur the education of the Roman Catholic priests." Those
were the premises. He (Lord J. Manners) admitted them
to be true ; but what was the conclusion at which the
Rev. Gentleman and those who agreed with him arrived?
—to have nothing whatever to say to that enormous power
which they themselves admitted to be so greatly influential
and formidable. It was a case, in his opinion, for a course of
conduct totally different. He would say to these gentlemen—
" Admit frankly and freely into your union and inter-
course that power which you acknowledge to be so great and
extensive. Accredit a Minister to the Vatican--receive a
Nuncio at St. James's—and see whether you cannot thus clo
what you never can effect if you continue by the most maisemroa:
ble and childish weakness to ignore the existence of
• ions ear, hear.)
over every portion of your vast dom.! • .
hed with him
Those were some of the conclusions which weighed whichnarehy
awyhei
tc h
permitted was great
thebefore
exerciseE gl aonf
grave and most important
in coming to a decision on that and to
endeavoured to reply ; but
of whose arguments he had thus
arguments fen- himself, he
while he had attempted to answer those
dsuwcuh tarekmin(egraoug
most cordial concurrence
could not refrain from expressing
Ins
Friend the Member for
in the repudiation of his Right Hon..
favour of the grant. For
question, far opposed to that of many Hon. Members, to some
Newark of some of the arguments in
himself, he could say that he did not vote for the grant because
ht its effects would be to Protestantise Ireland, but he
did so in that frank, generous, and confiding spirit to which the
Right Hon.
Baronet had appealed; and whilst
that part
of his
hisubject, that Right Hon. Baronet must permit him (Lord
J. he thought
Manners) to remind him that the Irish Roman Catholic Church
Was not the only ecclesiastical body in this empire to which the
.
English State should extend its support—to which it were ad-
visable that she should be actuated in her conduct by a frank,
generous, and confiding spirit also.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet and the House might believe him (Lord Man-
ners), that the opposition and great resistance given to the pre-
sent grant by so large, and he admitted so respectable, a body
of the clergy. of the Established Church was not the less deter-
mined, sustained and profound, because they felt and believed

by the Protestant Church had been taken from the Roman
Catholics, he begged to say that never was an historical fact
more contrary to the real state of the case.—( Laughter from
the Opposition benches.) He was prepared now, or at any
other time, to defy any man to prove that such was the fact.—
( Renewed laughter.) The Noble Lord then entered into a
disquisition on the history of the events that took place in this
country, in Ireland, in Scotland, and on the Conti-
nent, immediately prior and subsequent to the Pro-
testant Reformation, which, he contended, plainly showed
that the revenues now in the possession of the Pro-
testant Church properly and legally belonged to it,
and concluded this branch of his observations by stating that
the only incident which the Protestant Church had to deplore
was that by which it was for a time deprived of its lawful
rights was when Pope Adrian the Fourth sold Ireland to Eng-
land.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then again adverted
to the present state of the Protestant Church in Ireland. He
contended that the ministers of that Church were self-deny-
ing, zealous, and disinterested, and were, therefore, held in
the highest esteem by their flocks. He denied that the Roman
Catholics did not seek for supremacy in their Church. Al-
ready they had attained supremacy in the corporations, and if
they got this measure they would never cease until their
••

crellgren was supreme. Let him ask if the Roman Catholic
lergy were to receive two hundred pounds a year each, how
was the Government to maintain the clergy of the Protestant
Church whio were now so poorly paid?—( Ironical cheers. )
He would call on the House to pause. Let them consider the
position in which they stood. They were not to imagine that
because no petition had hitherto come from the Protestant
population of Ireland, that therefore they approved of the mea-
sure then before the House, Let the House recollect that
Catholic Emancipation had been granted, and he would ask
whether the effect had been to conciliate Ireland? Concession
and conciliation had only produced fresh demands in Ireland.
He would again call upon the House to pause, for let them
recollect
Facilis descensus Averni
Nodes atque dies pwtet atri janua ditis,
Sed revocare gradum, superasque evadere ad auras
Hoc opus, hic labor e,t.

Sir J. EA ST HOPE, who was very indistinctly heard in the
gallery, said he had presented a petition, agreed to at one of
the largest meetings ever held in the town which he had the
honour to represent. One of the allegations of that petition
was, that this Bill, if passed, would prove the first step to-
wards supplanting Protestantism by Popery. He could not
help believing that these assertions were founded in error. He
believed that the alarm which had spread through the country,
with respect to this measure, was entirely unfounded. lie be-
lieved that no Minister, however strong he might be with re-
spect to numbers in that house, would ever hate a chance of car-
rying any measure, whose effect would be to endanger the exist-
ence or stability of the Protestant Church. but that was not the
question they had to discuss. The plain question was, whether
they should govern the Catholics of Ireland in a spirit of jus-
tice, kindness, and conciliation ? It was not the question,
whether the institutions of the country would be affected, but
whether eight millions of people were to be cared for ? The ques-
tion was, whether they could resist the demands of the people
for instruction? Those demands which they had a right to make.
What objection could be made to the priests of Ireland being
educated in their own country ? Every one knew of the efforts
which had been made to drive these priests to other countries.
They knew, and every one must know, the beggarly state of
their principal College, and the state of degradation— he might
add, destitution—into which the students there were thrown.
He could not help feeling that it was worthy of remark their
not seeing on those benches to support this measure, that
Hon. Gentlemen, and those who were in immediate connexion
with him, who had led the agitation for repeal of the Legis-
lative Union ; and he could not help feeling that there was
good ground for expectation, if justice was done by this
measure, that agitation would cease. What was Mr. O'Con-
nell's strength but Ireland's wrongs ? What was an adequate
and fit redress but kindness, conciliation, and justice ? Those
were the views which had influenced him, painful as it might
be, in placing himself in opposition to those who had
sent him to that House. As he entertained these opinions,
and he entertained them strongly, he felt that it would be
unworthy of the confidence of those who had sent him to that
House, if he did not support that opinion by his vote, in spite
of those of his constituents. He believed that this measure
would have the effect of suppressing a dangerous agitation--
that it would cure complaint, that it would redress grievances,
and inspire confidence in this country on the part of the Irish
people. He confessed that when a good gift was offered, he
was not very much disposed to complain of the donor. In con-
sidering this question, he did not think it necessary to make
any complaint of inconsistency on the part of the proposers of
this measure, although he regretted that the Right Hon. Gen
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so badly de-
fended himself with respect to that subject.—( Great laughter. )
But he thought the less said on that matter the better. He
gave credit to those who had embarked in this course for
being actuated by good motives, and he did not stop to con-
sider whether there was consistency in their conduct or not.
There was one thing he could not pass over in this discussion,
and that was, the absence of those Gentlemen from whom
they had so often heard of Ireland's grievances. He thought
it was remarkable that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Cork, and those who were associated with him, were
not in their places to support this measure. He (Sir John
Easthope ) cared not for the expression of approbation —he
cared much more for action. He believed that this measure would
contribute towards the stilling of agitation. The people of
Ireland would be in better temper with the people of England.
When he said the people of Ireland, he did not mean the
900,000 Protestants in that country, but he meant the
8,000,000 of her inhabitants. He believed that the 800,000
Protestants of Ireland would be delighted to find that the
8,000,000 were more contended, that they had been taken
from agitation to improvement, and that they had been in-
duced to take a course, which would increase the welfare and
prosperity of this country. He believed that the interest of
the whole empire was involved in this measure, and he be-
lieved that it was one, which every good, every reflecting,
every honest, and every patriotic man ought to support. If
the motion of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Sheffield could be framed so as not to impede this measure he
should give it his support; but if it should have the effect of
impeding this measure, he should feel it his duty to vote
against it.
Lord JOCELYN said he was aware that his Noble Friend
who had lately spoken, spoke the sentiments of a large portion
of the Irish Protestants, and that he had spoken the sentiments
of a body of men who from his (Lord. Jocelyn's) earliest
youth be had been taught to respect. If any stranger had en-
tered that House during his Noble Friend's speech, and who
had been unaware of the subject under discussion, he might have
been led to believe that the measure which was under discus-
sion was one for the abolition of the Irish Church, if not for
the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. He
(Lord Jocelyn) looked upon this measure in no such light.
He looked upon this measure as a measure of justice and true
policy. He felt some difficulty in addressing the House in a
debate which had lasted upwards of four nights, for
he felt that every argument had been put for-
ward both in support of, and in opposition
to the measure. But he felt, at the same time, that in the
position in which he was placed in Ireland, and considering
those with whom he was connected, he was called upon to 6
state the grounds upon which he gave his warm and cordial
support to the measure which had been proposed by his Right
Hon. Friend. His supporting this measure was' not incon-
sistent with his previous course. The very first vote which he
had given in that House, and the first speech which he bad
addressed to it, were in support of the grant to Maynooth.
Hon. Gentlemen had taxed his Right Hon. Friend, with whom
he had the honour of acting, of changing his principles on
this Bill. Rut it was an extraordinary fact, that
during the whole course of this debate, not a single
expression of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment had been brought forward in proof of this asser-
tion. When his Right Hon. Friend came into office, he
declared that he felt Ireland would be his greatest difficulty.
He subsequently declared that it was his intention to con-
duct the Government of the country firmly but justly, and
in a spirit of conciliation.—( Hear.) A short time after
his accession to office an agitation broke forth in Ireland,
which was likely to lead to a dismemberment of the empire,
and his Right Hon. Friend, without having recoarse to any
new measure for the suppression of that agitation, effectually
put it down by the existing law. That agitation having been
put down, his Right Hon. Friend in order to keep his pro-
mise of conciliation which he had made, brought forward the
present measure.—( Hear, hear.) For himself, even if he had
not long ago formed his opinion on the merits of this measure,
the arguments which he bad heard during the present debate
would have led him to the conclusion to which he had already
arrived as to its justice and policy. He would appeal to any
person connected with Ireland—he would appeal to his Noble
Friend the Member for Bandon, whether the political evils
of Ireland might not be traced to their religious prejudices.? He
therefore thought it a wise and sound policy to endeavour
to connect the people to the State by the ties of gratitude.
Seeing that there were seven millions of Roman Catholics in
Ireland, that their priesthood had the greatest influence over
them, whether for evil or good, it appeared to him to be sound
policy to show that they sympathised with their wants by im-
proving the condition of those upon whom the people of Ire-
land looked with so much respect.—( Hear, hear.) If the
Hon. Member for Newcastle had not commenced his speech
by saying that he was opposed to the measure of his Right
Hon. Friend, he (Lord Jocelyn) would be led to believe that
he was a supporter of the measure, for his arguments were
rather in favour of it. He admitted that there was a certain
degree of compact, that there was no new principle involved,
for the principle was admitted in reference to their policy to-
wards the Roman Catholics. With regard to the analogy
which the Hon. Gentleman drew from the conduct of Prussia,
he did not thick that it applied, for the people of this country
would not submit to have their children educated by the State.
But with respect to the system of ecclesiastical education, he
did not think the Hon. Gentleman would contend that it was
different in Prussia from what it was in Maynooth. With
regard to the brilliant speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Member for Edinburgh, he thought the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had no foundation in justice for his taunts upon his
Right Hon. Friend, for he would
,appeal to that Right Hun.
Gentleman himself, or to the Nole Lord the Member for
London, whether he considered himself responsible for the
opinions of his followers —for instance, the opinion which were
promulgated at the Corn Exchange. He would give his cor-
dial support to the measure, because he believed it was just,
and that it introduced no new principle, and that the
Roman Catholic priesthood were in want of the means of
education. He had been in Maynooth two years ago, and he
could confirm the statement which had been made by his Right
Hon. Friend. He felt that those who had been brought up in
that institution, as they were brought up, could not have any
strong feelings of attachment for a State which left them in such
a condition. He believed the religion which he himself pro-
fessed was the true one, and he felt such confidence in its truth
that he had no fears of an additional grant to Maynooth doing
any injury to that religion, whmileehetrseulsy thante
trusted it
theywo hduldaleabdeetno
the happy result of
heretofore, the Protestants and the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land.—( Hoar, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said he was anxious to say a few words on
this question, because the principle on which he shouli give his
vote had not et been fully stated to the House, and also be.