The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-04 00:00:00

for twenty years, and had left at the age of sixteen,
and after that had been employed in a factory until he
he was too old to work, and ashamed to beg, they sent
kini back to Ireland because he had nat been born in
that country. When there was distress in Scotland he
recollected that the Irish in that country were excluded
from the advantages of the subscriptions which were
raised for the relief of those distressed. The Bill was

directed against a large Irish population, who did not go
to Scotland for mendicity, and he thought that natu-
ralisation ought to be the result of industry. lie would
ask the Lord Advocate if he were prepared to make any
change in this measure? If he did not, he (Mr. Sheil)
thought that the Scotch Members were not prepared to
support him in this system of direct national discrimi-
nation.

Mr. F. MAULE wished to give a reason why he
should vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for
Glasgow. He was of opinion that no law would be
satisfactory to the Hon. Gentleman himself (the Lord
Advocate), or to the country, unless it offered some
permanent advantages. He would ask whether this Bill
embodied principles which were likely to become per-
manent or satisfactory? After due consideration he
believed that by taking more time to consider they
would arrive at a better measure, and for this reason,
that they had not yet discovered the proper way to deal
with the people of Scotland; In Edinburgh and in
Glasgow associations assembled for the purpose of pro-
tecting the pour. Some of these societies applied to
him to become a member, but he told them that the best
association for the relief of the poor was the legislature
of the country. If they did not beware they would have
these associations spreading up, which would interfere
with the good government, the peace and tranquillity of
the country. He thought that by suspending their
lodgment, and by taking opinions in this matter during
the interval, after this session they would be more likely
to arrive at a more satisfactory settlement.
Mr. REDINGTON thought that there were two
clauses in this Bill which would have a material opera-
tion on the people of Ireland. He would ask the Lord
Advocate why he advocated a measure which no com-
mittee of the House was ever asked to assent to ?___The

first objection was the question of settlement. There
was a clause enabling the removal of paupers to other
parts of the empire, which was a hardship much dwelt
upon by the Commissioners. According to this Bill
there was no earthly means by which an Irishman could
obtain a settlement in Scotland. The law at present
was, that three years' industrial residence would give
any person a right of relief. But if this Bill passed, no
person could obtain relief under any circumstances what-
ever, unless he was a Scotchman. He knew instances of
Englishmen and Scotchmen being admitted into poor-
houses in Ireland—in fact, they were never asked what
country they came from, it was only necessary to know
that they had six months' residence,-which gave them
the right of settlement, and, consequently, they could
claim relief. He did think that Irishmen ought to re-
ceive the same sympathy in Scotland that Scotchmen did
in Ireland.

Mr. SCOTT wished to say a few words on the 71st
clause. He was of opinion that the law of settlement
should not be discussed until they came to the 73d clause.
Lie had been in communication with the Lord Advocate
on this subject ; but he had found it impossible to pro-
cure a law of settlement for the Scotch paupers in Eng-
land ; and therefore he begged to say that it was quite
absurd to suppose that any invidious distinction was
made in regard to Irish paupers in Scotland.
Mr. ELLIS would trespass on the time of the House
for a few moments. He did believe that prudent, good
legislation might prevent much of the distress that ex-
isted in the Highlands of Scotland ; and he had an
impression amounting to conviction, that a great deal of
that distress had been owing to the clearance system.—
(Hear, hear.) He had heard attacks made upon certain
persons in Sutherlandshire ; but he should say that
many of those attacks were unfounded, and that a great
deal of kindness and humanity had been evinced in that
country to those who had been evicted. If those who
represented that a degree of harshness had been used to
individuals in Sutherlandshire, would only prolong their
journey to the north, they would find many instances of
much greater harshness.—(Hear, hear.) This was the
first Government who had ever taken up this question,
and, therefore, he had had much difficulty in deciding
on the course he should adopt in regard to it. However,
he had made v.p his mind, and he would say, that though
he was aware that Scotland did stand in need of a re-
formed system of poor-law, still, as be did not think this
Bill made that provision, he would vote for the amend
ment. He looked upon this Bill as containing much o
valuable matter ; but some of the clauses were so objec-
tionable, and gave it so much the character of what his
Hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire had called a
landlord's Bill, that he should oppose it, particularly in
consequences of the provision it made for boards of ap-
peal, which were not by any mewls calculated to afford
satisfactory and prompt modes of appeal to the poor
man. The Honourable Member then read an extract
from a speech made by one of the sheriffs of Scotland, and
contended that that speech bore out his argument against
the board of appeal. He would next call attention to the
defective provisions the Bill contained for affording suit-
able protection to the lunatic poor, in which he consi-
dered he was borne out by what had already taken place
in this country in reference to pauper lunatics. In Eng-
land he was aware that the people were assessed for sup-
porting their lunatic poor, and he would admit the justice
of such a law, and if such was intended by this Bill for
Scotland, he did think the first thing the Bill should do
would be to define that assessment ; and if it did not, the
Government would find they would have to come back
to the House to ask for such a provision,
Mr. P. M. STEWART said he had presented several
petitions from various parts of Scotland, most of them
approving of parts of the Bill, but all of them praying
that it should be postponed till next session. He wanted
to know what was the reason of the undue ihaste which
had been shown in endeavouring to pass the Bill during
the present session ? The history of the Bill had been
given by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down,
and therefore he would not enter into the particulars.
The Hon. Member for Perth had said the Bill could not
work well, unless it had the confidence of the people of
Scotland. The powers of the Commission extended to
act in all the parts of Scotland by a vicarious change.
The Commissioners were invested with altogether terrific
powers, as respected the working of the measure. They
were not only to name the number of therepresentatives,
but they were also empowered to decide who they were to
be. He would ask why were the rate-payers to be
represented by any other individuals than those chosen
by themselves ; and why should the clergy of the Esta-
blished Church be exempted from the payment of rates
for the poor, while the great majority of the other
clergymen was subject to assessment? He believed the
intention of the Lord Advocate, in bringing forward this
Bill, was well meant to the people of Scotland; but still
the Bill was so objectionable to all the competent autho-
rities in Scotland, and to all connected with the admi-
niitration of the law, that the Government should pause
before they hurried it through this session. He would
ask, was there a single petition presented in favour of
this Bill from Scotland ?

Colonel RA\VDON objected to the Bill, and espe-
cially to clause 72. By it Irishmen were placed in a
different position in Scotland, to what Scachmen were
in Ireland. The Irishman would derive no benefit from
it. In the removal of Irish paupers, there was no protec-
tion whatever that an Irishman could not be sent off from
the nearest port in Scotland for transhipment to Ireland.
In his opinion, the 72d clause made poverty a crime. If
any Irishman attempted to come back again in search of
employment, he was liable to be imprisoned and punished
with hard labour. This was a provision contrary to jus-
tice and to the interests of Ireland. lle believed there
were 50,000 Irishmen in Glasgow, and that was a strong
case that great con,ideration should be bestowed on the
measure before it went into Committee.

Mr. VIVIAN said that the great evil in Ireland was
want of employment, and that was the reason why so
many of the poor Irish male a practice of coming into
Scotland and England. There were from 150,000 to
200,000 Irish in the cities of Glasgow, E linburgh, Pais-
ley, Greenock, and their vicinities. He could not con-
ceive anything more unjust than the proposed measure
in its present form, as it regarded the treatment of Irish-
men in Scotland, and he trusted that her Majesty's Go-
vernment would reconsider the matter.

Mr. ESCOTT had listened with great attention. ;le
had heard six or seven Members for Ireland express
there objection against certain portions of the proposed
measure ; and had also heard several Scottish Members
express similar opinions. Not one Hon. Member had
risen to defend the Bill. He must say that when on a
former occasion he was present in the [louse, he had
listened to the Lord Advocate, and from the observa-
tions which had fallen from him, it appeared to him
(Mr. Escott) that there was room for a better adminis-
tration of the poor-law in Scotland. He considered
some of the provisions of the proposed law might be
earriedinto effect with benefit to the people in Seotland,
but it would be advisable to inquire further into the
state of the poor, in order that the efficacy of the
measure might be sufficiently tested. He felt himself
called upon to say thus much. All the evils that had
resulted in England and Ireland, from the operation
of the poor-laws, had resulted from want of sufficient
consideration of those schemes before they became the
law of the land. He believed that if the report of the
Commissioners, appointed to investigate into the
condition of the poor, had not been so implicity acted
upon, the beneficial results would have been great.
The poor laws both of England and Ireland required
considerable supervision. It was proposed that the Poor-
law Commissioners for Scotland should have the same
powers as those of England and Ireland. Such a system
was highly objectionable to the feelings of the people of
Scotland, and it had been stated by all those who were
competent to judge of the matter, that the further con-
sideration of the Bill should be postponed to another
session. He wanted to know what there was in the pre"-
sent state of the peer-law of Scotland that required alter-
ation. It was advisable that the intentions of that mea-
sure should be carried out to their fullest extent, and
practically enforced before such a measure as that now
proposed was entered into.
Mr. DUNDAS, after a few preliminary remarks in
which he strongly reprobated some observations which
had fallen from the Honourable Member for Winchester
(Mr. Escott), observed that it was true the wants of the
poor, to his own knowledee, in certain districts in Scot-
land, were very great and urgent. Reports had been
published from time to tim. of the condition of the people
in the north of Scotland, and they were not without
foundation. He did net believe that the poor
whom we have always with us had yet attained
their proper position in Scotland.—(Load cheers.)
If the House would go through the evidence, as he had
done, they would see with him the extreme suffering
under which the poor of Scotland were labouring ; and
such being the state, he, not as a landlord or owner of
the soil, but as a man of humane Christian feelings,
weuld support any measure likely to benefit his country.
(Hear, hear.) The whole system of Scotch existence
was built upon the mutual support which every class ren-
dered one aeothcr, end he contended that very great
credit was due to the poor as well as the rich, for the
generous absiatanee they tendered to their suffering