The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-18 00:00:00

TH E SUN, LONDON, TUESD A V EV ENING, MARCH 18, 1815.

of the Rig'at Hon. Baronet had been made earlier it might
have been some ground for the lion. Member. for Somer-
Fetsirire post pen:ng his motion. He rejoiced in the imposition
ef the income-tax as a step towards an improved system of
taxation; hut he complaieed that in the redtietion of
taxation wlsi, h had been ma..le in consequence, the I, ast
proseerous r lass had net been considered.—( Hear, hear )
One 'debt Amos` thit.k. on looking at 'he spectacle exhibited
th in e , t Cr,st the lion, diember for Stockport was the
high-prie4 ,-f free trade, and that those who sat on the Trea-
sury beeches &raisin ed responses to his song.-,-( Laughter. )
There were tag portions of her Majesty's dominio s in which
a‘tricu tore was at present prosperous—lreland and Scotland—
and he supposed it was with reference to this that. the Noble
teetten wa; the bane of agrieulturep'uo'—rot7a_d.
Lord the Member for the City of London had said that " pr
h
had been cno,ridiaalblyy asasne,ni tewdatromlbyy 111.11:1;ePtetl
manyetirfno rownShuti Sue
n-
derland,
opposite tide of the Houae. The only meaning which he
totild attrieh to the repression was, that because
agriculture was not prosperotis while protected, th-refnre, pro-
tection was it, bane.—( Hear, hear.) The connexiott :veered
to him not to be inevitable. There was another principle at
work contemporaneously with protection. He was one of those
who thought that the monetary system of this country—
( Laughter)—had a principal influence on its productive powers,
and that system had been operating conjointly with what had
been termed the " bane of agricult re." In conclusion, he
must express kis firm conviction that the Right Hon. Baronet
had not disproved the statements mule by the Hon. Member
for Somersetahire, and, therefore, not absolved them from the
obligation of affording to their constituents relief; and however
tr,fl ng that relief might be, it would be taken as an indication
that if the distress increased, the relief would hereafter be ex-
tended. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and
Forests was, it appeared, engaged in considering many subjects
steeple interesting to egriculture. He believed that that tact,
and the tone of the speech delivered by the Secretary of State
for the Home Department would have a most beneficial effect.
By such means many would be satisfied and assured ; being
made to feel that they had one of their own body, and one who
did not forget them, among her Majesty's principal ad-
visers.—(llear, hear.)
Lord dOliae RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman had
done him the honour to allude to an expression which fell from
him at the very beginning of the session; namely, that
" Protection was the bane of agriculture " Now, if that ex-
pression required any justification or proof, it would be given
by what had passed that eight. The lion. Gentleman who
brought forward the motion stated that in various instances
protection had been broken in upon. He went through the
different Bills which had been passed under the present
Government—the corn-law of 1812, the tariff of the same year,
and the Canada corn-bill of 1843. He did not venture,
however, to prorose that any of those laws should be repealed;
but having stated those Bills, he left the question, merely
proposing that the sum of 275,0001. should be taken off BIC
county rates.—( Hear. hear.) lie was followed by the Right
lion. Gentleman the Secretary et State for the Home Depart-
ment, in a speech which the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken
last declared to be so highly consolatory to the agricultural in-
terest, that it could not tail to have a beneficial effeet upon the
country. Now what was it that the Right lion. Gentleman
had sail which was of so consolatory a nature ?—( Hear, hear.)
Did he propose to restore protection to its former high rate?
Or did he propose additional protection, to prevent the influx
of cattle and corn from Canada ? Nothing of the kind. What
the Right Hoe. Gerelemata said was, that the Legis'atere
ought to give progressive 'acilities for the impartation of
foreign commodities—(Cheers)— that if persons wished
to know if a good price could be obtained for agricultural pro-
duce in his part of the country, the mode of ascertaining it was
to inqUire into the state of Manchester and of Glasgow, to ask
what was the condition of the manufacthring districts in Eng-
land and Scotland, and if these were flourishine, then it was
expected that agriculture would flourish in a similar propor-
tion.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Was that any encourage-
ment to pro. ection ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it not directly the
reverse ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it not showing that as they
had taken away protection, and encouraged the progress of
manufactures, they had afforded the means of improving agri •
culture ?—( Hear, hear.) But as the Right Hon. Gentleman
had said there was a speech made the other night which had not
been answered—(Hear. hear)— which ha did not believe very
well could be answered, and which showed in what manner pro-
tection was injurious to agriculture—he meant the admirable
and powerful speech of the Hon. Member for Stockeort.—
( Bear, hear.) He believed it might be shown with
regard to most articles, as thrt Hon. Member hest shown with
regard to agricultut e, that the consequence of legislative pro-
tection, while it ameared to be a favour to that particular class
which was protected, operated against all the other sections of
the community, and therefore exposed that class to odium and
to envy ; he believed the consequence to be that it tended to
make men slovenly —( Hear, hear)—wanting in energy in that
particular occupation ; and that it induced them to rely upon
an Act of the Legislature to secure to them a certain price in-
stead of rel)ieg upon their own skill and energy. That he
should be disposed to say with regard to almost any article.
He maintained that if ever there was a country which was dis-
tinguished at once by great energy and intelligence, and at the
same time by the possession of extensive capital, which was
ready to be employed in any enterprise that required
such employment, this was that country. Let them rely then
upon that energy, intelligence, and capital ; let them look to
then for the means of waalth and for the encouragement of
prosperity, and let them not rely upon that broken reed which
might be obtained from legislative protection. He might say
this with regard to any article of manteracture, for which, in
former days, the manufacturers themselves sought protection
by legislative means.—(Hear, hear.) He was happy to say
that manufacturers, nosy- day's, perceiving their great success
in foreign countries, and finding that they had not the smallest
need of that protection, had adopted sounder theories of coin-
merce.—(Hear, hear.) But with regard to some of these
manufactures, there might have been an appearance of success
on the plan of restriction and monopoly, because there were
some articles of which no great quantity was consumed, and for
which there was no absolute necessity in the community. Now,
he would take one on which there was a monopoly in Holland,
and another in which there was aprohibitory duty in this count ry
—lie referred to spices and silk. The world could live without
sweets, and people could have articles of raiment without silk.
There was no absolute want of those articles. With regard to
articles of that kind there might be a very high price in pro-
portion to the ctemand, and legislative protection might to a
certain extent be successful with respect to a particular class,
though it were an injury to all the rest of the community. But
the agricultural body had no such advantage. While corn and
other articles of food were cheap, they might have a duty of
205., 405., or 508., and the community would not complain ;
but immediately articles of food reached a very high price,
there was naturally so much discontent that the system itself
broke down.—(Hear, hear.) That had been found to
be the operation of the system ever since 1815. when he
was a Member of that House, though he was not
present at the dela .tes or the corn-law, the farmers said that
nothing less than 80s. would be a remunerative price to them,
that it was impossible that they could live and carry on culti-
vation with a less price for their corn. Why at that day it
was impossible that any Legislature which had regard to the
peace of the country could attempt to maintain a law which
gave such a price as 80s. Well, the protection was relaxed, and
a new law passed. But that again was found too high. The
law of 1828 passed, and after a certain time there was a general
complaint against that law likewise. It was propo ed in 1839
to alter that law, and he declared at that time that he was in
favour of a moderate fixed duty, and of a relaxation of the
system. Those who were placed in opposition to the Govern-
vernmeut of that day said, thet the protection was not too
much, but ought to be maintained; that they would not throw
the law of 18)8 into the lottery of legislation. that even if the
Government had come forward as an united Government,
which they were not, they would oppose any altera-
tion in the existing law. Well, a change of
Government took place ; and those who were apparently
in favour of protection, those who were against a relaxation of
the law, came into power. And what had they heard from the
Hon. Gentleman that night ? Why, they had heard that ever
since that time Parliament had been gradually breaking down
that protection; that it was broken down first by the-corn-law
of 1842, then again by the tariff, and, hoary, by the Canada
Corn Bill of I re 43. Therefore, the case was as he (Lord John
Russell) had represented it. Although it might sound very
well to talk of protecting native industry, and of giving that
important interest which was concerned in agriculture, a greater
security for the price of thei, produce than any interest in the
country Although that might at first appear a very good
theory, vet, when they cayse is effect to ft rce eighteen millions
of people to consume food at a certain high price to be fixed by
the L- gislature, such was found to be the discontent, and, he
mieht add, such the danger in consequence, that every pru-
dent Government would say with the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman opposite, " Look at our increasing
population, and see whether it be safe to continue the law as it
; if we cannot have free trade in corn immediately, let us
have corn brought in through some of cur coloaies ; let es, in
short, have some facility or other by which the extreme rigor
of the law may be made more tolerable, and by which this pro-
tection, which is said to be so necessary, may be less a protec-
tion in effect than it is in appearance."—( Hear, hear.) But
it might be said that, after all, even if this protection could not
be kept up to so high a pitch as was desired by those who
brought the Government into power fer the purpose of main-
taining it, there was no reason why it should be a mischief;
that it could, after all, be no bane to agriculture, even if it did
not do the good for the sake of which it was sought. But then
he came back to that argument which had been used so irre-
sistibly, and he said that by this legislation, which tended to
keep up a price which they could not maintain, they did give a
false reliance to the farmer—(Hear, hear)—they did induce
him to look to the law and not to his own energy.—(Hear. )
They did 'each him to neglect those means upon which be
ought chiefly to depend—such means as economy, acti-
vity, and improved science, by leading him to think
that he had a landlord who went up to Parliament expressly
to take care, that whatever his cultivation might be—be it
slovenly, be it ignorant—there should he a high price secured
to him, and that he need look ne further than the Acts of the
Legislature for a proper remuneration, if he wished for a remu-
nerative price in the marlcet. lie would not detain the House
any further upon this point having, he thought, sufficiently shown
that this protection utter] which the farmers relied was, as he
stated at the e.ommenceinent of the session. " the bane of agri-
culture."—( Hear, hear. ) Well, then, the Right lion. Gen-
tleman the First Lord of the Treasury had said the other night
that he ( Lord J. Russell) seemed to oscillate between
the two sides of the House, and that, although he
declared protection to be the " bane of agriculture,"
and although those words might sound very well, yet he did
not carry that theory into effect. Now, with regard to that
point, though he might be entirely mistaken in that view, if
two modes of doing away with protection were presented to
him—one, that of doing away with it suddenly and abruptly;
the other, that of removing it cautiously and gradually—
in such a case, following the great authorities who had written
and seoken on this subject. he should prefer the latter to the
former mode.—(Hear, hear.) But that was entirely as to the
means to be employed, it was not a quetion as to the policy
which ought to be adopted. There was no doubt im-
plied as to the end at which they ought tow aim.
—(Hear, hear.) When he said that protection as a
bane to all the interests protected, but more especially a bane
to agriculture, and that they ought to do away with restriction
anal monopoly, he was, in fact, following the words and senti-
ments of Mr. Ricardo. Bat at the same time, in the very page
in which Mr. Ricardo maintained that doctrine. he inserted the
word " cautiously," as a warning—though he was more of a
theoretical writer than a practical statesman—as a warning to
those who umierteke this task, as to the ccrcumspection with
which it eught to be carried into effect.—(Hear, hear. )
But, with regard to the general theory of this subject, he
might be allowed to make a quotation from another author,
who was still living, and whose name he would mention to the
Howe when he had read the pissage. The words were so
much better than any he could use, the whale theory of com-
merce was so well stated in it, that he trusted the House
would forgive him for reading it. " The only beneficial care
that a Government can take of commerce is, to afford it pro-
tection in time of war, and to remove by treaties the restric-
tions placed on it by foreign Governments in time of peace,
while it abstained from placing on it, however plausible they
might seem, any re=trictiens of their own creating." .‘ The
interest of a State consisted in the prosperity of the
whole, and it was contrary to sound policy to defend one class
at the expense of the others ; the only mode of ascertaining
the newel limits of each was to let them all alone."—
(Cheere-a) Such was the 'opinion given many years ago, in a
pamphlet by Mr. Alexander Baring, the present Lord e sh•
burtrin—( Loud cheers)—it was marked by the sagacity, the
knowledge, and the distinguished talent that Noble Lord pos-
sessed.—( Hear.) This, then was his (Lord J. Russell's)
opinion with regard to commerce in general, and he did not,
think, therefore, they should gain anything by doing what

many farmers wished them to do—repealing the Canada Corn
Act—putting a higher duty en the admission of foreign cattle,
or in any way going, back to that system of high-protec-
tion which the present Gov, rnment declared it did not
wish to restore.—( Hear, hear.) Lut there was oee
thing they could do for the farmers—there was one
thing they were bound to do for them—and that was, not
to hold out. these delusive hopes to them.—(Cheer=.) They
had seen the farmers mreti, g this year in various placer, they
had read the reports of those meetings, containing complaints
of their present state. and requests for fine her protection. He
thought the House ought to tell the farmers, if it did give
them this far her protection, it would only be afferding them a
"delusion and a Snare —(Cheers)—flat their best relied-me
could be on their own industry and skill, and that the future
course of Parliament would be to diminish and finally take
away the present mount of protection, not to creaee new
one'.—( Hear, hear. ) But such was not the language held,
such was not the course now pursued. The Hon. Gentleman
who bad spoken from that corner of the House, bad stated how
much they regretted having voted for the corn-law of 1842
That law was one which the Hon. Gentlemen themselves es-
tablished. lie knew that he (Lord John Russell), and many
others on his side of the 'dense, voted against the second reed-
ing of that Bill, but it was carried by a great majority, con-
sisting chiefly of the representatives of agricultural counties.—
( Hear. ) Then those Hon. Gentlemen say they would not
have voted for it. if they had known of the tariff or the Canada
Corn Bill. With regard to the tariff he could not think that
anything which had happened, or anything that was likely to
happen, couldbe at all injurious to good graziers, if they had also
a great importation of foreign grain, and could command the
right means of competing in the markets of the country with any
growers of foreign cattle whatever. With regard to the Canada
Corn Bill, to that he also objected, but on very different
grounds. He considered it to be the establishment of a corn-
law in Canada, an exten.ion of a kind of protection to the
agricultural interest of Canada, which it might be hereafter
very troublesome to alter. The Hon. Member for Taunton
(Mr. Labouchere) founding his objections to the Bill on these
views, brought forward a nation which would entirely have
stopped the progress of the Bill. Was his Hon. Friend sup-
ported by the agricultural interest in that House? By no
means.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentlemen opposite gave
such support to the Government that it was enabled to carry
the liiil.—(Hear, hear.) When they went farther than the
second reading, he (Lord J. Russell) was not prepared to
carry on that opposition. But it was evidently within
the power of these who represented the agricultural
interest to have put a total stop to the Bill, and for any impor-
tation that had taken place under it, let them not throw all the
blame on the Government. They had themselves assisted the
Government, and they were assisted every day—( Hear, hear)
—in carrying riot this same policy of giving greater freedom
to trade aed taking away rethictions. They should tell the
farmer, then, it was a good and sound policy they were pur-
suing, and that they intended to stand by it fairly and
honestly; then they eouldl not be in that House, fellowing in
the wake of the Minister, and then going down to the agri-
cultural meetings to attack him for hie free-trade principles.—
Such was h's opinion of the general conduct they ought to
pursue ; but he would now preceed to the particular motion
before the House That motisn declared that in any remission
of duties, the agricultural in'erest ought to be consulted. He
thought the Right Llon. Secretary of State had answered the
latter part of the speech of the Hon. Member for Somerset,
with regard to the particulars he had stated. Take as a-i in-
stance, the poor-rates, and the tithe commutation. The poor-
rates were one million less at present than they were before the
new poor-law passed; and with respect to tithes, the agricul-
turists stood in a much better position now, than formerly, in-
asmuch as they could improve their cultivation and increase
their produce without paying a single sixpence more to the
tithe-owner. The agriculturists had been great gainers
by the difference in their position from what it was
some years ago.—( Hear. ) He shou'd not enter lett)
the question of the expense. of prosecutions ; if they esta-
blished a different system altogether, and if the Secretary of
State shouid ever choose to appoint a public prosecutor,
then different arrangements might be made with respect to
the expense of prosecutions ; but at present the subject was
quite beside the question before them. His answer to the
Hon. Gentleman, when he asked for consideration for the
agricultural interest iu these remissions of duties was this—
that the agriculturists ought to place themselves on an
equality with the rest of the community, and say there should
be ne more duties on the produce of agriculture than on any
other raw material of commerce. The food of the people was
in fact the raw material on which the greater part of
the people were maintained. Let them come forward, and
say, on 'his raw material, the least possible aracunt
of duty should be levied, and then, when they were on the
same tooting as the rest of the community, when they were no
longer reckoned among the favoured interest, they might ask
to have their peculiar burdens considered, and if they were
proved to have injurious consequences on agriculture, and to
prevent the employment of the number of labourers who would
otherwise be employed, anything that could in justice and
equity be demanded, would be conceded by the greatest free
trader and most determined abolitionist of the corn laws oho
sat on that side of the House, as readily as by Hon. Gentle-
men who held property in land. But they could not expect
this view of their case to be taken while the
odious impression caused by the corn-laws hung
over the country. The majority of the House of Com-
mons, and the whole of the House of Peers, was composed of
persons connected with land ; and the protection given to that
interest was believed by the people to he at the expense of the
rest of the community. What an injurious pos:tion this placed
the landed interest in with the country. The Hon. Gentle-
man who brought forward the present motion alleged there
had been a decline in the price of meat of 6d. or 7d. per stone,
and he complained that it had become cheaper since the tariff of
1842. He complained also that corn had fallen in price, and
he asserted that these were evils which required interposition.
After all, when they followed this out, it amounted to this.
The Hon. Gentleman complained, and alleged it as a grievance,
that a poor man, in purchasing 2 lbs. of mat for the Sunday
dinner of himself and wife and family, could save about 2d. in
the price of it.—( Hear, hear.) If he bought bread, he might
also save 4d. or bd. in the bread of his fancily for the week.
Let them consider how injurious it was to them to come for-
ward with these facts, and allege them as an evil and a
grievance. If they had everything reduced to a fair state, if they
could say they had no special protection, and that in conse-
quence of the flourishing state of the manufactures there was
a greater demand for agricultural produce, causing an in-
creased pr:ce, then they might fairly rejoice in the fact of that
increase of price. But when they said their law was not suf-
ficiently stringent, that it did not prevent the people from pay-
ing 6d. less for bread or meat than they might be made to pay
by the law—this was a complaint that must tend to place the
landed interest, and the great landed aristocracy of the country
in an odious position.—( Cheers.) He, as much as any man,
had a right to respect that landed interest.—( Hear, hear, from
Colonel Sibthorpe. ) The cheer of the Hon. and Gallant
Member induced him to make an allusion which otherwise he
should not have done. He had been connected with persons
who took a great interest in the progress of agriculture ; his
uncle anti father had done as much as any men towards the
progress of agriculture ; they had done all they could to bring
the farmers of the country together and make them conversant
with improvements. •—( Cheers.) He was, therefore, the last
men to wish for any unnatural or unfair depressiou of the
agricultural interest. But if they really wished to promote
the good of-agriculture, if they wished the landed interest to
hold that high title to the respect and rank they had won for
themselves in former days, and ought to preserve in the pre-
sent, they ought not to agree to motions like this; but they
should seek to establish some fair and equal arrangement be-
tween all parties, and to let all Englishmen see that if the
landed interest was the most powerful, it was also the mast
generous, portion of the community.
Mr. B. ESCOI T rose amidst loud cries of " Order,"
and " Mr. D'lsraeli," oho had stood up at the same moment,
but gave way to the former Hon. Member, who commenced by
sayinglhahtehhaovpinegdahlreaewdTiugidivnerot:ahy.,toheoanted,Hroanr.tillcluelmarblyeruthhaet
even
in,
to vote against the motion of the lion. Member op-
posite, although he happened to be one of his constituents who
would give him his most t ecided opposition on this question.—
( Hear and a laugh.) The Noble Lord the Member for London
had gone rather minutely into the details of this question, and
into the many grievances which it was contended' pressed upon
agriculture ; but surely they were not now discussing that
question—they were not now debating the nature and the
corn-laws—(,year)—and therefore he re-
gwr°ertktendg of the
that the Hon. Member had deemed it right to bring
forward his motion. thereby interrudting, for so small an
object es it professed to attain, the very important business of
the country now trader discu-sion.—d Hear. ) flow.
ever, he thanked the Noble Lord the Member for Londe' for
having entered at such length upon this question, for it
was te very same as one which he intended to have
brought forward la.t. session.—( Hear, hear.) But now
he would ask what was it that they proposed as a mode of
relief? It was this, that the county rates should be re-
moved. But who was it that imposed these county rates?
Were they net the Hon. Member for Sounersetshire, and others
whom he now saw around him.—( Hear, hear.) And was it
not the sense who had the power to remove them?—( Hear.)
It had been said that this question had now merged into a cen.
test between two great bodies in this country, namely, the
Anti-Corn-law League and the Protection Society. Now,
although there had been occasional skirmishes between bath
these parties, he had never said a word against either, and
never would, so long as he did not feel himself compelled to
join either —( Hear, and a lo.ueld)—but with the exception of
those skirmishes, he did believe that the Anti-Corn-law
League would affect trade as little as would the Protection
Society agricultural distress —(Laughter.) Now, he would
ask, was not the real cause of the dissatisfaction of the farmers
of this country the conduct of their representatives in that
House—( Hear, hear)—and if he concurred in this feeling
amongst the farmers he had his reasons for it.—(Hear, hear.)
Let it not be forgotten, that hitherto there had been two kinds
of meetings held at fixed and regular periods in the
country, at which the farmers had been in the habit
of looking forward for the expression of the opinions of those
whom they looked upon as their leaders, and being guided by
their statements on subjects connected with agriculture—those
meetings were the agricultural meetings and dinners.—( hear,
heap.) Those assemblies were generally held during the Par-
liamentary recess ; and it was the habt of all -classes who lived
by the cultivation of the laud,
to discui4 at these meetings va-
rious measures affecting their collective or individual rights.
He remembered that when first those assemblies used to take
;dace subjects of a politieal tendency were sometimes discussed
at them ; and in order to prevent the danger likely to follow
from such discussions, rules were then fra wed by which all
topics of a political or public nature were prohibited being in-
troduced. In the autumn of last year he attended one or two
of these assemblies. and ha there found that the effect of this
rule was, that the leaders of the agricultural party adopted this
cote se. There were use clly some Members of Parliament
present, and they, having no doubt these same political questions
uppermost in their minds, could not well suppress them altogether,
se they just said as much abort them as to convince the far-
mers they knew nothing whatever on the subject.—( Laughter. )
And then they spoke to the farmers on agricultural subjects in
such a strain as convinced these same farmers that those lion.
Members knew nothing whatever on that subject.—( Great
laughter.) Allusion had been made to the debate which took
place last week, and much bad been said about the prin-
ciple and the intent of this question ; but he begged to say
this, anti he would let the farmers know it. that neither the
principle nor the intent of the question could have such at-
taeks made against them as those made by Hon. Members who
thought they were supporting hoth.—( Hear, and laughter.)
One Hon. Member made a speech in that House complaining
of the agricultural distress, and supported protection elsewhere.
—( A laugh.) Another wrote pamphlets and bills, and dis-
tributed them through the country, declaring that protection
was the cause of the distress, while in that House he supported
protection.—( Laughter.) Now, he conceived that if those
Honourable Members were right, they would be the
means of compelling others to petition for the
total repeal of this protection.—(Hear, hear.) Yet, in
the face of all this, chat did the agricultural Members
in that House do? why, they supported protection—the
(Mr. E.) had speat some time
House stuck to the corn-lawse arid tariff, thought these were
the very things that it was said created all the distrees.—
savudirehe thought he knew something about
assure Hon. Members that there was
much as plain dealing ; and he would like
amongstt(niol;htniacrna theyg nht
dheacri
lek farmers,ei!do Nus
to know what sort of answer would they receive from lion.
Members whom they had sent to represent them, and who had
voted in favour of protect of
front both sides of the 110:330.
—( Hear, hear. ) lion. Members would find this to be the
fact, that the farmers and the labourers too hut much deeper
intellectual powers on this: teseoion, arel many others, then
those who conceived themeelves their superiors gave them
credit for—(Hear, the labourers knew well that

they and the farmers could only prosper by the general pros-
perity of the country.—( Hear. ) It was a fact well known to
many that the lab eirers could reason fairly upon this topic,
and they frequently displayed that acuteness of intellect
deni d to those who lead a life of luxurious ease and indolence.
He would not have supported the proposition of her Majesty's
Government, or oppose the motion of his Hon. Frien ', did he
not believe from the_ bottom of his heart that the budget of
1842 and the budget of 1815 were the commencement of a
great series of financial expel iments—the commencement of a
new s)stem of taxation—the commencement of a new
system of encouragement of trade, manufactures, com-
merce, and agriculture—in short, the commencement f a new
system for the promotion of the reward of industry, which,
when finally accomplished and carried out to the end, would be
for the benefit of all classes of the people—would raise the value
of property, would raise the value of labour, and tend to the
maintenance of English peace and English liberty, and the
maintenance of that constitution under which they had been
born and bred.
Lord 'WORSLEY did not think the Hon. Gentleman who
bad just sat down had spoken the sentiments of the farmers.
The farmers had petitioned in favour of the existing protection
being continued, tearing that it might be attempted to reduce
it. His Noble Friend who had seconded the motion, was the
mover of the address in 1842, and at that time an expectation
was held out to the farmers that the corn-laws would maintain
wheat at a certain price. In that expectation they bad been
disappointed. It had been said that the agricultural distress
was not general, that it did not exist to a great extent in the
north of England. This was tree ; but the reason was,
that the farmers of the north had a greater amount ]
of capi'al than those of the south. The distress
had not sprung up this year, but had gradually been increasing
for two or three years past, and now it was showing itself in
such a form as to compel the farmers to speak out. He had
refused the other night to go into Committee on this subject,
believing that it would delude the farmer to do so; but he saw
nothing in that resolution which had been proposed by the
Hon. Member for Somersetshire, calculated to delude the
farmer. If lion. Gentlemen representing county con-
stituencies should refuse to vote for that motion, their
constituencies would be grievously disappointed, for they
would consider it tantamount to saying that their re-
presentatives did not believe that the agricultural dis-
tress justified the interference of the House of Commons.
Mr. D'ISRAELI said that if he had sec. ceded in catching
the Speaker's eye, when he in vain attempted to do so, as the
Noble Lord the Member for London terminated his speech, he
would have presumed to have offered some considerations to the
House upon the great question respecting protection to native
industry, which he would not presume to do at that hour
of the night ; and, therefore, he was afraid lie must
restrict himself to the principle of discussion which had been
laid down by his Hon. Friend the Member for Winchester, and
confine himself strictly to the motion beforethe House. Other-
wise, he could assure the Noble Lord, that watching as tbey
all must do with great interest, the formation of the character
of an individual so eminent,who had been, as he informed them,
thirty years in that House, but who did not appear to arrive at
a result as to what was the interest of the country, that
lie ( Mr. D'lsraeli) would not presume to place his opinion,
foundedon a much more recenrexperience of the House than his,
yet, he would dare say, that after all, one truth was evident, per-
haps even for that discussion—namely, that protection was not
a principle but an expedient. If an expedient, it must d pend
on circumstances; it could not be settled by these quotations of
extra dogmas which had been stated by the Noble Lord.—
( Hear, hear.) He could not doubt that they should all of them
have ample opportunity of discussing that great question
which was now the question of the age and the
country.—( Hear, hear.) They should all of them,
either by their speeches or votes in that House, or on the
hustings, sooneror later, come to a test upon the great question,
not whether you will have protection, or free-trade, for that is
not the alternative, but whether you will have free imports.—
( Hear, hear.) He was ore of those who thought that there
was much to be said on both sides, but he could not forget
the speech of the Hon. Member for Stockport, which he was
sure would not be easily forgotten—(Hear, hear)—and there-
fore, he would not say that much more was to be said on both
sides. Yet ho could say without great presumption, and with
great respect, that much more might be said on one side than
was yet offered to the House.—( Laughter and loud cheers.
He might presume to enter into this questi in at that hour, if,
indeed, he were in the position of some of those, who were at
the head of affairs, and who might at such an hour
rise, and with the certainty of being heard. enter
into a field so vast.—(Hear, hear.) He could not
forget that before they came to a settlement of this great
question they must grapple with the great point—the war of
hostile tariffs —( Hear, hear.) They must ascertain bow far
imports would affect the rate of wages—how far they would
have an effect upon the rate of price—how far cause a disturb-
ance of the precious metals—how any disturbance of the pre-
cious metals might affect the possibility of their maintaining
the standard.—( Hear. ) He did not offer those considerations
in a dogmatic tone to the House, but merely to show that be-
fore they came to a settlement of a question which must be set-
tled—(Hear, hear)—there were great numbers of considera-
tions which must be entered into in an unimpassioned and pro.
found manner.—( Hear.) Now be came to the question be-
fore the House—the question mentioned by the Hon. Member
for Winchester, who opposed the motion with so much fervour.
He would meet the lion. and Learned Gentleman on the
ground he had himself chosen. They had a motion upon this
subject, the terms of which must be familiar to every gentle-
man present, namely to take into consideration, in arranging
the surplus at the disposition of the Minister, the claims of
agriculture. That was not a new motion—it had been
brought before the House before. The motion had been in-
troduced before. It was introduced when the Gentlemen who
now sit on this side of the House sat on the opposite side—under
identical circumstances a similar motion was proposed. Well,
what had taken place order circumstances which ought to be
some guide to them as to the result of the present motion ? That
motion was not triumphant, although it was very
nearly so, for it was supported by a powerful opposition, not
undistinguished fur its power of cohesion.-e-( Laughter.) In
1836 a powerful Opposition wished to try a fall with not a
feeble, but, at the same time, not a confident Government—
( Laughter)—and they selected this motion as the battle field
on which the power of parties was to be tested. That motion
was proposed by a Noble Friend of his, now a Member of the
other House of Parliament, but who waa then Member for
Buckinghamshire ; and though it was a discussion of not any
great length, it was distinguished by an interesting and able
speech from the Hon. Member for Dumfries. There was a
division—a division which did not shake the Government to its
enema but which at least msde it tremble.—(Laughter.)
There was, in 1836, a majority of above thirty in favour
of the administration on a vital question—a question of
confidence. The motion was identical in its phraseology—so
identical, that he should have thought the Hon. Member for
Somerset, feeling that he had some necessity of having re-
course to successful tactics—( Laughter )—had referred to au.
thority on this occasion, and determined to bring forward a mo-
tion which came recommended not only by numbers, but by
distinguished names.—( Hear, hear.) Looking to those lists
embalmed in those records to which they tall repaired—
(Laughter)—he then read the names of those who voted with:
his Noble Friend, and judging from that, he thought that the.
Hon. Member for Somerset must have not only equal success
but greater success on this occasion, for this was a Conservative
House of Commons, and that was a Whig one.—(Loud cheers
and laughter.) Now he would tell the Hon. Member for
Somerset, on whom he might rely for support. There was the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland,
who voted for an identical motion under similar
circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) Ho knew that Right
Hon. Gentleman too well to doubt that he would not
vote the same way to-night.—( Hear, hear, and much laughter.)
There was then a surplus, and the agricultural interest came
forward, and said, " Are we not to be considered ?" The
Right Hon. Gentleman said they ought to be considered, and
he was not surprised at it—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—for
the Right Hon. Gentleman was always a friend to agriculture.
He remembered having had the honour of meeting the Right
Hon. Gentleman in presence of his constituents, and he could
not forget the occurrence, for the Noble Lord presided with
whom he had voted in 1836.—( Hear, hear.) He remembered
the speech the Right Hon. Gentleman made under those cir-
cumstances. They were dreary moments—(Laughter)—for
they were then in a position when there was no chance for
power unless they were carried forward by the agricultural
cry.—(Loud cheers.) He knew the constituency of Bucking-
ham, and he knew that they were so satisfied with tkcir
accomplished representative—(Laughter)—that if they were
content with his sympathy in opposition, they would be
sure that in the Government they would have a friend
on whom they could rely.—(Laughter and cheers.) Could
the electors of Buckingham for a moment suppose that the
Right Hon. Gentleman, who in 1833 voted for a sample resolu-
tion, and later than 1836 voted for a motion similar to the
present—that the Right Honourable Gentleman would vote
against a motion similar to the one lie supported in 1836?
Of course they could not, and of course he would not
(Laughter and cheers.) The Noble person who presided over
the dinner could not imagine any such thing, for when he
found that the policy of the Cabinet was opposed to the prin.
ciples which be held, he quitted it at once.—( Hear, hear,
and laughter.) They might therefore count upon the support
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland.
He didnot think they could despair of the Hon. President of
the Board of Trade.—(Laughter, and cries of " hear, hear.")
lie supported a motion of the kind under similar circum-
stances. —( Renewed cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter,)
There was an odd rumour lstely about certain opinions which
the electors of Stamford held, and the mode in which they
gave vent to them.—( Great laughter.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade was
now Member for Stamford, and must, he had no doubt, in
accordince with the views he entertained in 1836, consider
that in a surplus budget agriculture had a right to be con-
sidered.—( Hear, hear, and renewed laugh•er.) lie had no
doubt, he repeated, but the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade would vote now as he voted then.—(Loud cries of
" hear, hear," and great cheering from the Opposition.) He
thought the Nobles Lord was a Member of the Cabinet.
He meant the Member for South Nottinghamshire. He
'would not forget the course he then took, and now vote as he
had voted before.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," cheers, and
laughter.) If he considered then the claims of the agricultural
interest, as a member of the Government lie would not fail to
remember that interest.—( Hear, hear.) Might he go further?
He believed some of the Lords of the Treasury—( Hear, hear)
—amongst others the Clerk of the Board of Ordnance (who
took so much interest in agriculture that it prevented him
So from
forgetting him) voted for the motion.—( Hear, hear.) you
see how many votes (said the Hon. Member, facetiously) my
Hon. Friend the Member for Somersetshire can count upon,
although he seemed to forget them when he made his speech.
—(Hear. hear, from the Opposition b'nches.) No doubt all
the constituencies from Buckingham and Chippenham would be
doubly grateful for being so well misrepresented.—( Great
laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government
gave on the occasion referred to, a contrary opinion.—( Hear,
hear.) He would be very sorry to make a statement in any
way erroneous, and, therefore, he would distinctly state that
the Right Hon. Gentleman on that occasion acted in a diffsrent
manner from most of those who sat on the same side of the
House with him. No, the Right lion. Gentleman did not
vote for that motion—he went into the Whig-lobby alone—
left his party, and voted against the motion. The Right Hon.
Gentleman behaved throughout in the most handsome manner.
(11 ]arc of laughter.) He expressed his annoyance, however,
at the indiscreet conduct of his party against tke Minister of
the day.—( Hear, hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) He
did not rise in his place and read them a lecture—(llear,
hear)—and he did not say, although they had gone
into a different lobby from their leaders, " You are
in opinion rebellious.' —(Loud cries of " Hear," and
great cheering from the Opposition.) The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman having preserved his consistency still
kept on the very best terms with his party.—( Great laughter.)
That was the state of the case and the House must recollect it.
-( Hear, hear.) Ile had no doubt that the Right Honourable
Baronet, following the precedent he had then set, would give
the same latitude to his supporters as he did then.—(lronical
cries of " Hear, hear.") He might quote'Hansard in support
of what he had stated, but the facts must be fresh in the recol-
lection of every body. This was " sticking to the question,"
as his Hon. Friend said.—( Hear, hear, and great laughter.)
Did his Hon. Friends around him view the conduct of the
Right tion. Gentleman in the same liglit as he did ? Well, if
they did, and if their conetituencics were satiated, they should
not grumble—theic conduct was suite unjustifiable.—(Laughter
and cries of " Hear.") The Right Hon. Baronet had done
snore for agriculture than any Minister of this country had done
for a quarter of a century before. That was his (Mr. ti'lsraell's)
selemn opinion, and though he seinetimes came into lognien-
tary collision with the Treasury bench, he felt burnt to make
this statement. If, was prepared to maintain that opinion.—