The Sun.
London, England, 1817-02-22 00:00:00

CONI-MII"fEE OF SUPPLY.

Lord PALMERSTON moved for 500,0001. for the mainte-
nance of the forces.--Report on Monday.
GAME LAWS.
Col. 'WOOD gave notice for Wednesday of a motion for
leave. to bring in a Bill to repeal the Statute of George 11.
specting Gatne.
Returns were ordered of' the amount of Cotton Goods ex-
ported during the last ten years, distinguishing the different
sorts, and to wheat places.
Returns were ordered of the number of ships and vessels
of war in commission in February 1, 1797, 1813, 181.5,
and 1817.
A Message from the Lords stated, that their Lordships had
agreed to the Exchequer Dills
The Malt Duty luill was read the third time, and passeyl.
POOR LAWS.

Mr. Cu RWlttt said, that the motion which he I
felt it his duty to submit to the consideration of
the House was in every point of view of the ut-'
most importance. But it ever there was 'a time
when existing circumstances could increase its
importance, the present moment was that time.
At the beginning of the Session he pressed Mi-
nisters to bring forward some salutary measure
respecting the Poor Laws ; but they having de-
clined doing so, he felt it incumbent on hint to
make this motion. lie greatly lamented that this
motion did not originate with Ministers, because
they could command that information anti influence
which was in this' case s‘i necessary. A person
who, like himself, was without those advantages,
might excite hopes awl wishes, which it would be
out of
,his power to gratify. He wished to im-
press upon the House the impolicy of going into
a Committee, unless they were determined to
adopt some measures which would afford effectoul
relief to the Country front the burdens which
the
.Poor Laws imposed and as be was well
aware' that nothing cat:lcl be done without
the co-operation of Ministers, be was ex-
tremely desirous of becoming acquainted with
their opinions. The poor laws, he said, were in
their Origin most excellent. They provided sus-
tenance and comfort fur the aged and Ire
but the Legislators who enacted them neverenti-
eipated that the funds provided for poverty, age,
inArmity, and disease, should he lavished upon
persons who' were not afflicted with those formi-
dable'evils. Hitherto aft attempts to improve the
state of the po9r laws have entirely failed, but let
its hope, said be,' that the time is conic When it
will be practicable to obtain relief from such op-
pressive enactments. Formerly, when this coon-
try was more agricultural and less commercial than
it is at present, the Poore Rates' amounted to
:only a• 'million and a half, now they amount to
:eight millions trod a half. This wawa cause of
sleep and bitter regret, and no one could la-
Anent it mbre sincerely than he did. if an
increase ot- happiness could- be obtained by per-
,onitting the poor 110175 to . retuain in their .pre-

sent state. hes would be the List to attempt their
alteration, but be felt strongly convinced that their
existence in their present state was one of the
chief causes of national misery. In the endea-
vours to preserve the lower orders from indigence,
the Legislature has, by recurring to them too
great a facility of 'obtaining an asylum, super-in-
duced a habit 'of preferring present enjoyment to
future comfort, and making them the victims of
discontent, by depriving them of the elevating
spirit Of independence. Discontent and depravity
must be the result of so great a portion of the
people being in a state of pauperism and depend-
enee. In Ireland, where the Poor Laws are
not in force, the external appearance of the
lower orders of the inhabitants, and of their
habitations, excite .the strongest feelings of hor-
ror and disgust ; no one who sees them for the
first time, but would wish that he had never seen
them, and yet the conversation and the conduct
of else people' indicate content, and even
Isappiness,,for they are independent, they live by
the fruits of their own industry, and are never
assailed with the degrading appellation of pauper.
Their hearts,are full of strong feelings and warm
affections, and :their wretched hovels are the seats
of open-hearted hospitality. He further' observ-
ed, that a great cause of there being at present in
England such a number of paupers was the strong
disposition which existed to early marriages, the
effect of which was to bring into the world hun-
dreds of children, on whose prospect of future
support their parents never °nee bestowed a
thought. Ile was not desirous of controul-
ing matrimony, but he felt that the Legisla-
ture could take such measures as
,wotsl4l make
the people parties to their own happiness.
He expressed his full conviction that the 43d
of Elizabeth should remain precisely us it watts
and he, undertook to show that then the burden
would be light. He was very willing to give Mi-
nisters every credit for the utmost readiness to
prevent even the most minute increase of the pub.;
lie distress. He did not know whether their opi-
nion coincided with his or not, but on this point
he had suite made up his mind, thit he would not
go. into the Committee unless. there was,a good
prospect of obtaining effectual and speedy relief.
The Honourable Member then made a quotation
front some documents which described the situa7
lion of the poor at Sheffield, and the efforts
whifh great numbers of them made to escape
the degradation, of pa,ipetism. lie said that
he had a variety of letters from Shropshire,
Sussex, and many other places, stating they
paid from 18 to 20s. in the pound. He calculated
the number of-paupers to amount to two millions
and a half, and the amount of subscriptions and
-Poore' Rates to be about 8;500,0001. VvhiCh made
on the whole 26 per cent, upon the entire rent.—
These considerations, he said, required souse at-
tention—these evils called for some redress.—
Mani Lawyers of high eminence were of opinion,
that all property in the Funds and eliewhere was
liable to Pours' Rates ; and by.a quotation which
be made, it appeared that in the year 1663 it was
resoNed by the Judges, that every person should
he Charged according to. his esthte, and by the
22d of Geo. I. property the Funds was made
chargeable. But, he contended, if the Houses of
"Parliament should at any time say that property
in the Fonda should not be-charged, that then they
would toyeexeceded their powers, anti have acted
in opposition to the lows of nature, and contrary
to the • immutable principles of justice. Ant: 'as
to the policy of taxing funded property for the
Poor, it was quite as politic to do so as to lay
the income Tax on ,t. The country had now
been brought to a slate Of the utmost distress,
and relief was now eiii!ntial to existence. The
Poore Rates were one of the many causes which
produced these melancholy effects ; and now the
greatest, pains should he taken. to equalize
the burdens whica they imposed. He calculated
the amount of Interest on Funded. Property,
namely Debentures, Bank Stock, India Stock,
South Sea Stock, &c. &c. to amount to three mil-
lions and a halts If this, together with landed
Property, was vsxed, even at a very low rate, it
would yield a sufficient sum for the poor. -.He
also observed, that money lent at interest should
also be made ,chargeable. He was' of opinion
that pauperism was more the effect of commerce
than of agriculture ; and he also observed,, that
the Poor Laws were peculiarly oppressive upon
persons who were not.natives of England. After
the natives of Ireland, or of other places, came
into,England in search of occupation, and after
they had spent a long life in labouring for the
luxury and comfort of the English, they were sent,
back to their native country, diseaSed, -destitute,
and infirm, .forgotten by some friends, and de-
prived of others by the hand of death. He assur-
ed the House, that he felt his inadequacy to per-
form the task whiCh he had undertaken, and be-
fore:he concluded, he begged leave to conjure the
Noble Lord to raise and immortalize his name,:by
lending his assistance to the amelioration of those
unjust and oppressive Laws. lie urged him to
come' forward-,--he entreated him to tell the House
and the Country what they, had to expect, as
every thing *ended upon bins. The Honour-
able' Member concluded by moving, " That a
Committee. he appointed to entinire into the state
of the Poor Laws."
Lord ensTLEaeaou.--The speech of the flan.
Gentleman who proposed ,this motion embraced
many interesting and important particulars ; and
he had, endeavoured to follow it thorough all its
details. While be give that credit Which was
certainly due to the Honourable Gentleman for
bringing this subject under the inesideration of
the House, he was-happy to pay him
ment on the calm and temperate tone with which
he had discussed this most important subject.—
However great he (Lord C.) might think the dill's
culties with which it was surrounded, yet he, for
one,woluld give his anxious and earnest support
to any inquiry into it, and any individual exertions
Which he or any other of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters could makes would be made : all the time
which, consistently with the due discharge of the
public duties, could be given, would be devoted
to it. And whether they shonhl succeed in at-
4taining that object wh?th the Honourable Gen
tleman was so sawguine in anticipating, at least it
%wokd not tie treated with indifference, much less
would it be coldly abandoned: For this much he
would' siyi .that 'tithe W-as.no 'class- of iniliViduals

whose disposition more goaded them to the dig.
charge of their important duties on this subject,
than those- who are engaged hi theGoveroment of
the country at this time ot:public difficulty and dis-
tresS. Phere was 'no responsibility on this subject
from which he would shrink. It was not env such
feeling as that of avoidinc, responsibility. that
pre‘ented: him from coming forward to take the
lead in this matter. What prevented him froth
doing so was the conviction, that Wall the inert-
bets of. Government had engaged iti it, and had
been 'able to see.their way to. some measure which
premised to be efficient, and towards which the
country might feel touch disposed, and would tia'
turally Look with strong hopes ; and if the mea-
sure thus brought forward by Government proved
in practice inefficient and failed, the disappoint.
meat throughout the country would be greater
Bed would bring on such despondency as injght
prevent the renewal of any efforts. 'But in the pro-
posed Committee he did not despair that some ef-
ficient measure would be devised. He assured the
Honourable Gentle Man that he took as gloomy
a view as himself of the system of the Pour Laws,
He considered them as calculated to break down
the spirit of the English people.—(Hear, hear,
hear !).7--And lie was firmly of opinion, that if
they could hot succeed in raising up that spirit,
and in inculcating those doctrines which would
Make the people depend upon their own lab6ur
for sepport—if they could not 'succeed in this;
the English-men of future'ages would not be what
they had been.—(Hear, hear; hear 1)—As to the
systeof from which the present evils arose, what-
ever. mig`ht have been the original purview or the
Statute of Elizabeth, it Was 'nut to be traced
from the mode in Which that Statute hail been,:
acted upon. For it there was ' no positive. sod
legal title given by that Statute, yet there wlt
no denying that it impressed upon the minds of
;be lower orders a sentiment of claim to rehet.
It 'Was curious to' see what difference of practice
had grown up in England and in Scotland front
laws originally of the same kind. With respect
to, the 'character of the Irish peasantry; he
agreed with the Hon. Gentleman. AVbatevee
descriptions might have gone abroad as to the
situation and distresses of the Irish peasants, he
always thought exaggerated. Industry rues there
practised. T 9 their own efforts alone they could
look for support and subsistence, and the conse-
quence was, that there was a Cheerfulness, a dig-
nity in their character, which could not be too
highly valued. In England, on the contrary, too
much liberality in the distribution of parochial pe-
Cuniary relief had broken down all these feelings.
In Scotland, the statute, corresponding to that of
Elizabeth in the English law, remained in prac-
tice, an instrument by which the heritors or
landed proprietors were in every parish aetherizeil
to assess themselves for the relief of the poor, and
this day they did not cio'so as to- encoorage in•
dolence and sloth ; but they supplied with lahoni
such of the poor as were able tb work, and foe
this they were paid ; 'so that none were there sup•
ported by the Poor Rates but those who were itb.
whitely incapacitated by age or sickness froni
earning the means of subsistence. With respect
to one topic—the general feelings of the People
of Efigland,.. at this time!---he differed much from
the Honourable Gentleman. - efforts in
this cause would surely not be ,distrusted, if lie
stated an opitrioo on this part of the subject*
very different front that which represented the
mass of the people of Engitt'od as murrourieg and
alscontented uritler the present distresses. For
his own part, he thought that the .patience and
fortitude.with which the privations and hardships
of the present time were !Janie, was truly ad-
mirable and 'exemplery.—they were virtues, the
benefit and reward of which would be reaped,
when the causes of the present distresses, which
were certainly of a temporary nature, had been
entirely removed. With respect to the plan of the
Hon., Gentle Man to extend the contributions for
the support of the poor, to personal property,
it would be a delusion ,to hold out to the land*
eel proprietor that he could in any degree es-
cape entirely froth the present system, and
that it wouldsbe in our power to tread back
all our steps to the statute of -Elizabeth.
Thus much he said to prevent the House trout
looking towards any such precipitate step as
that cif overturning the present system. . But at
the saute timelie was sure the Mime would feel,
that if system of pecuniary relief was allowed
to go on with the same degree of laxity that it
!Sow Alidif the same trauds-=the same profligacy
and idleness was allowed to be encouraged, and
men were still to Meet with temptations to escape
labour, then loin would approach the country.
doubly, for there would then not only be,the pres-
sure of taxation but the relaxatioo 'ofindustry.—
(Hear, hear, front all sides of the House.!)The
great principle should be, that no man able to
work should hate any claim but to .the wagee,or
his labour..—(ll.ear, _hear, bear 1)—Such Men
ShOuld be -supplied, not With money, but with
work, for- which they should be paid. On this
principle the system should be founded, and pa-
rishes should find out such .work for these men to
labour upon, as would be useful to the community.
If no useful work could be found for them, he would
rather oblige them to tligabolebne day, and to fill it
up the next, then pay them to live doing nothing,
and drag their
:limbs about in slothful inactivity,
till they lest the power of industry with the habit.
—(Hear, hear !).—,lf men able to work Were al-
lowed to subsist on the charity of their parish with:
out any effort towards 'their own maintenance,
they Would- lose all the feelings of men, they.
would become burdensoMe, offensiee, and worie
:than useless to - society. The evil bad increased.
to such an,extent, ;that if it Were not soon dealt
with, it would become too .strong for the law.
The first thing to be drine was to cause the laws
.in existence to be effectually -administered. At
pre4ent, -with some few eiteeptions, the admini-
stratiOn of the laws was radically had.—(Hear,
hear I)—ltt the parish with which he was con•
fleeted the Poor Laws were. administered by
woman.—(Hear ! and laughter,)The truth was,
they- were. generally, in the hands of persons
utterly incapacitated from acting. To be inn
perly qualified for- fttiministering these ;litiVs'lee
(piked snore than the experience Of one or
.two,
years. Tbe parson ought to knots' ill'the
duals in the parish. The fertners its each parish
1'
_should be Lamle in turn to .undertake:the office of

',lib,. %%1111 11
permanent (UMW TO M4INt tt,elll.
to the great holden of the poor rate* hieing now
:"Oil the landed property, is would go aloisg with
the [fon. ereotlentan in the abstract principle,
that if. personal property e..,0141 be brought in to
contribute, it would he well. .Bat to this he
saw aita,:+; insuperable oblections. Yet he
. would oot wish to be tho4glit the less ardentin ,
than business, because lie would not go into the
Committee with the blind determination of ex-
tendiog this tax to a kind of property, to which
it sigh tint How extend. The, lion. Gentleman
not yet, have forgotten all the difficulties
attendatit on the taxation of personal property
There was no feeling or principle more to be de.
pvecateil, thin that a parish), burdened Id the dr.
most, shout.) get its hand into anOther parse, and
when it had dune so, then become inditrent to
the admiuistration of these Ifi,vg. lie begied
not to be misanderstood. lie wished that they
should go into the business like, Statesmen, and
not leave impreision on the public mind
which must be onanctive mitt,a,:s. They
Wight to go into the Committee with a firm tie-
termination to struggle against that evil,. which
the whole system of administration hitherto tend-
ed to angment. If be had the iltnionr to be a
Melllber of the CotriMittee, he would not go into
it with any favourite idea nit the subject,—(llear,
hear, hear l)--but with a mind unprejudiced, with
a heeling, that if something effeettml was not now
done, that system would grow worse which now
threatened its with ruin. lie world go too, under
the deepest impression of the difficulties which
bang arouud the question inn haiever tight it was
vieWed,—(lle4r, liar, hear !)—The Noble Lord
then spoke highly in praise pt the system of Sal'.
lugs They ought to be supported and
eucouriged by the Legislature in every possible
wiry. He could not, therefore, approve of that
pair of the pbor of the lion. Gentleman, which
tended to iii he the contributions of the labour.
ing classes compulsory. If any attempt was
luade +lr ennyukion. it Seemed to hint that
inevitable Consequence .would be to bring down
the-whole system of Saings' system
now gaiiiing gvonntl, anti wbielt ought in be nou-
rished mid suppOt led by all possible means. 011
these grounds be would Caution the lion. Gentle.
man to look, with a calm and unprejudiced eye,
at this part of the subjt•et. Ou themprinciples,
and feeling that they were called upon, nit every
side of the House, to lay aside all party feelings,
(Wear, hear, hear !) and to bring to the consi-
deration of the subject the utmost indu,try and
their best judgment, be supported the motion
with the utmost ze,6l nod cordiality; and with the
deepest sense of duty which lie had ever felt on
any ocrasion.----(Luud cheering from every port
of the [louse.)
Mr. etiRWEN wished to say one word in expk.
nation. lie did not mean that the slightest de.
gree of coercion should lie used its to Savings
Riuks ; his plan was to. be ,adopted only where it
sour the wishes of . the majority of the pa,
ti*hioners.

The motion WWI then ngreed to without ollpo•
skim), mid the Metiihers Of tho Committee were
*pp„inted. The following are the names of the
Alembirts it .1,--.

Mt. fiord Castlerongh, Mr. F Lewis, Mr. D.
Bathurst, Mr. ghtriog, Mr. Rope, Nir.Drand, Mr. tloAkson,
Mr. I,ogh Kruk, Mr. Dieltrogon, L‘4ll tasuelles, SrO James
shaw, Mr. Fitzhugh, Virtl Stanley, Mr. C. Dari.las, Mr.
navies Gilbert, MI, Cartwright, jrS T. Coirtonay, Mr. MI.
ford, Mr. F. Robinson, Mr. Morino Pitt, Mr. S. Bourne, Sir
Thomas Auland, Mr. W:
EAST INDIA SIIIPPINg.

OMr, CANNING pret,ented a petition. from certain
roprietor4 Of the East India Company, praying
for leave to bring in a Hill to anthorise certain al.
lowanees to be made to the shipping employed by
the Company.

The Pohion was read, and ordered to be re
ferred to a Select Committee,

Mr. littouott,Ass presented a petition front cer-
tain other Proprietors of the Lost India Com-
pang, and praying exactly in opitosition to the
other Petition, which they stated was agreed at a
meeting of Of) wore than forty proprietors, asdetn-
bled on 24 hours notice, kw-ratios of whom (ex-
cept. the Directors) were ship owners.
petition was also rend, and after :a few
words bet wren Mr. CANNING and M r. Baotyonam,
was ordered to be referred to the same Coou•
mittee.
Mr. GOULIit/HN obtained leave to bring in a
Bill to amend the Art or the 43d Geo. 111. relative
to the Conveyance of pissengers abroad.
A MEMIIKII, whose name we could not learn,
Oltained leave to briar; in a Bill to amend the Law
relating to Grand Jorles la.lrehond.
The Papers presented to the louse relative to
Extents in Aid, were ordered to be printed.
Ailjottrned at lialt-past Ten o'clock, till Mon.
dily next.