The Sun.
London, England, 1828-11-26 00:00:00

MARYLEBONE.

FIRE-ENGlNES.—Yesterday Mr. Williams, of
Stafford-street, New-road, was summoned to pay
the legal fees to the fire-engines, for extinguishing a
lire in his chimney. A lad, who described himself,
on. his cross-examination, as getting his living "any
how he could," deposed that he saw a large crowd
collected in the street, and a great blaze out of the
chimney-pot of No. 6.
Mr. Williams was about to speak, when
Mr. GRIFFITHS interrupted him with—Sir, the
case is proved—there's an end of the business.
Mr. Williams—The witness has proved rather
too much ; I will prove that, so far from a blaze,
there was no tire at all. I was in the house, and, if
I could be sworn, would depose to the fact.
Mr. GRIFFITIIS—YOU can't prove a negative.
Mr. Williams—Not an abstract negative, but I
can disprove a -contingent negative. I have my
neighbours present to prove, that prior to the col-
lection of any crowd, at the first cry of fire, they had
watched the chimney, being in positions from which
they must have seen flame or sparks, had any such
existed; they will depose that there were neither;
that there was not even a greater degree of smoke
than is every day seen from kitchen chimneys.
Mr. GRIFFITHS—But the boy has sworn that
there was a flame.

Mr. Williams—lt is a contest of evidence, for the
Magistrate to decide. The neighbourhood is most
vile, and the boy can give no account of himself, but
that he gets his living how he can. He should be
cross-examined. The Act of Parliament, however
wise, holds out an immense temptation to getting
up these cases of fire. The reward to chimney-
sweepers, &c. makes the oath of sparks, seen out of
a chimney, a most profitable job.
Mr. GRIFFITHS—I have already decided the case,
Sir, and will hear no more. Mr. W.—That is my
complaint ; you have decided the case without
hearing it. You have stopped me in the points I
wished to put. You refuse my evidence. It is not
for me to dispute a Magistrate's decision on hearing
a case; but I insist, Sir, you do not decide without
hearing it.
Mr. GRIFFITHS—You may indict the boy for
perjury. Mr. Williams—lt is not, Sir, fora Mag',i-
trate to amerce the public by an intemperate or in-
cautious decision, and then refer people to such an
expensive and troublesome remedy. Your scrutiny
and sagacity as a Magistrate will, I hope, as they •
ought, prevent the necessity of any such indictment.
Mr. tharTerns—Well, °Sir, then bring forward
your witnesses.
Three persons, named Neale, Preston, and Mills,
deposed on oath that they lived in the street, and
watched the chimney on the first cry of " fire," prior
to the point at which the boy said he saw the flame,
and that there was not even a spark, or a greater
smoke than they had often seen before.
Mr. Williams—l was present all the time in the
kitchen and on the roof, and can positively swear
there was no fire. Many more neighbours can de-
pose to the same.
M. GRIFFITHS—YOU can't prove a negative.—
Mr. Williams—Four persons are watching the same
object; one, under the influence of a high reward,
deposes to seeing what the other three, being im-
partial, depose not to have seen, their opportunities.
of seeing being equal. The conflict of testimony is
the point for the Magistrate to decide.
Mr. GRIFFITHS—Not one of your witnesses says
any thing more than I could say sitting on this
Beach.

Mr. W., with warmtb,--That, Sir, I assert, in the
strongest terms I can use, to be a gross error; an
error too, on the only point on which th© ease turns.
The witnesses swear that they were in a position
from which they must have seen the fire had it
existed. Could you have seen it from that bench
Mr. GRiFFIT4S (with warmth)--I won't Sir, be
crass-examined in this manner..
Mr. W.—By your decision, any man unaided by
crosz.,emnination, and fearless of contradietory
dence, has only to swear to a flame or sparks out of
a chimney, arid the householder must pay about five
,pounds penalty. The inhabitants of London will
be Much obliged to you for such a proceeding.
appeal against the decision.
Mr.Gutiqwits—You may, but I do not advise you.
Mr. Williams—Few persons advise appeals by
which their judgments are to be e*posed.
Mr. GRIFFITHS, mildly—There will be an eXeCtl-
bon i,n your house if you don't pay it.
Mr. Williams—Which ought to have made a Ma-
gistrate more cautious in his decision. The Act
fixes a maximum and the Magistrate may award a
sum.

GmFvtrots—Onr rude is, to make gentiorio
pay the maximum., and those not gentlemen to paY
lesq.

Mr. Williams—lt is not for me to decry the

monstrous absurdity of this rule. The meaning of
the Apt and the public interest do not turn upon
gentlemen or not gentlemen. This rule is a lure to
make gentlemen the victims of these fire impositions,
so common in London. Promptitude of assistance
is the object of the law, and, in this instance, the
first engine (a hand-engine) did not arrive until
some time after the pretended fire was acknowledged
to be out.

Mr. GRIFFITIIS—YoII MHSt pay the fine, or suffer
the execution.

SPANISH AND ITALIAN 11\EFUGEES.

A public meeting was held yesterday at the Lon-
don Tavern, Bishopsgate-street, for the purpose of
taking such measures as may appear desirable in or-
der to provide for the urgent necessities of the desti-
tute refugees of Spain and Italy.
The meeting was numerous and highly respectable.
Ae a little after two o'clock, the Lord Mayor
entered the room. His Lordship was accompanied
by Dr. Lushington, M.P., J. Hume, Esq., M.P., J.
A. Hodson, Esq., M.P., the Hon. Douglas Kin-
naird, G. Byng, Esq., M.P., the Common Ser-
geant, Mr. Z. Macauley, H. Labouchere, Esq.,
M.P., General Sir John Doyle, J. Cape!, Esq.,
M.P., Mr. Bowring, Mr. Blades, Mr. Richard-
son,
The LORD MAYOR having taken the chair, said
the object of this meeting was purely charitable in
its character. It originated in sympathy for the
sufferings of a large and unfortunate class of fo-
reigners, who had been driven from their home and
country, and from all those agreeable associations
which constitute the endearments of civilized life,
and cast upon our shores without friends or protec-
tors—destitute not only of funds for their future
support, but without even the means .of present
subsistence. The condition of the great mass of
those unfortunate exiles was truly pitiable. To
their own exertions here a great portion of them •
could not look forward for aid with any prospect of
success, for they were ignorant of our language.
I
Their only resource was in the humanity of the na-
tion amongst whom they had sought an asylum ; and
he trusted that the result of that day's meeting would
prove that they had not in vain confided in the hu-
mane and charitable feelings of Englishmen.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—lf those individuals in whose be•
half he noW appealed to the meeting had sought re-
fuge on our shores from the consequences of any
moral crime, he and those with whom he acted
would at once have declined bringing their case be-
fore the public, as by that an example would be set
which might operate prejudicially not only in the
metropolis, but in the country generally. Theirs,
however, was not a case involving any moral taint.
,They had been reduced to their present forlorn con-
dition by honourable and conscientious exertions to
secure for themselves and their fellow-countrymen
the advantages of a free government—blessings
which we in this country enjoy in so eminent a de-
gree. (Hear, hear.) The meeting would recollect,
that about four years ago a public meeting was called
under the presidency of his Hon. Friend Alderman
Garratt, at that time Chief Magistrate. At that
meeting a subscription was commenced, which
amounted in the whole to upwards of 20,000/. That
would appear a large sum, but considerable as it
was, it fell short of giving adequate relief to the
very large body of unfortunate individuals who had
claims upon it. It was, however, distributed with
great discretion, and with a discrimination as to pro-
per objects, which reflected great honour on those
who had gratuitously undertaken its management ;
anti in the way in which it was applied, it served in
a great degree to mitigate the pecuniary privations
which it was not sufficiently, large wholly to remove.
That fund was now exhausted, and the Committee
found themselves at the commencement of winter
without any means of administering to the wants of
those who were still dependent, and whose suffer-
ings must of course be aggravated by the incle-
mency of the winter season. Under these circum-
stances, the Committee determined on making another
appeal to the humane and charitable feelings of their
fellow-countrymen ; and from what had already
taken place since the subject was brought before
the public, he rejoiced to think that the appeal
would not be made in vain. (Hear, hear.) He
was anxious before he sat down to correct a report
which had gone abroad, and which contained a mis-
representation as to the actual numbers of. those
who had claims on the charity of the public. It
was said that the numbers of those who were now •
dependent on the charity distributed by the Commit-
tee exceeded 1,000. This was a great error, and
one calculated to injure the cause of those who ac-
tually were dependent, by creating a feeling of de-
spair of being able to make any effectual provision
for the wants of so large a body. He had authority
to state, that the actual number of those now de-
pendent on public charity did not exceed three hun-
dred. These, however, consisted for the greater
part of those who were least competent to provide
for themselves. Many of them were afflicted with
disease and bodily infirmity, which rendered them
utterly incapable of exertion; many were women
and children ; and the whole were in that destitute
state which required immediate exertion to prevent
starvation from overtaking them. It afforded him
great pleasure to be able to state, and it was highly
honourable to the individuals concerned, that up-
Welds of three hundred of those who were formerly
dependent on the bounty distributed by the Com-
mittee, were now in a condition to provide for them-
selves ; and as soon as any of them had become so,
not only did they decline to receive any assistance
from the Committee, but most readily contributed,
as far as their slender means would admit, to assist
those amongst their fellow-countrymen who had
not the good fortune to be able to procure means
of subsistence by their own personal exertion.
(Hear, hear.) This showed the high and gene-
rous feeling which always belonged to honour-
able minds, and it was but justice to those unfor-
tunate strangers to state, that the great majo-
rity of them were distinguished few such feeling.
(Hear, bear.) It had been said by some that
Government ought to support those individuals.—
Upon this point also much misapprehension had
gone abroad, but be was glad that he was able to
give a satisfactory explanation on the subject. He
would state that the Noble Duke at the head of his
Majesty's Government had the strongest disposition
to assist those unfortunate strangers; and he had
evinced it not merely on one but on many occasions,
public and private. He (the Lord Mayor) had had
a communication from the Noble Duke on this sub-
ject, from which it appeared that in 1823, when the
Spanish and Italian refugees in •this country exceed-
ed 1,000, and when their distress was so great as to
attract the attention of Government, his Grace was
instructed by Government to make a report as to
the number of those who, from their services to
England on the Continent, had claims on the public
bounty. His Grace, to whom the services of most
of those parties were known, and who possessed
facilities for ascertaining the exact nature of the
claims of all, did make a report, recommending, on
account of such claims, a number amounting to 350
persons, besides women and children. For that
number Government lad provided the means of
support at an expense to the public purse of 18,001.
a year; but his Grace felt compelled to declare that
he could not recommend to his Majesty to extend
the grant to any beyond that number. His Grace
felt it extremely painful to be obliged to draw the
fine, for he was aware, that where it was drawn,
there misery would commence';
but be felt that it must
be drawn somewhere, for it was impossible to sup-
pose that the recommendations • could be indiscri-
minate. The Noble Puke had, however, done
enough to evince that he was strongly dis-
posed to give them every assistance in his power,
and this was evinced not only by his public con-
duct, but by many acts of private benevolence.—
It hardly necessary for him to state that the
appeal now made to public charity was not for those
wh° were receiving • the bounty of Government.—
The Committee solicited the aid of the benevolent
for those whom Government could not assist con-

sistent with the principle it had laid down ; and he
(the Lord Mayor) felt the greater confidence in sup-
porting the appeal, from a conviction that what-
ever funds might be placed at the disposal of the
Committee would be most judiciously applied. It
was'extremely gratifying to him to be able to state,
that though up to the present day the Committee
had not publicly advertised for subscriptions, yet,
through the ardent and powerful advocacy of the
public press, a sum of 2,000/. had already been
placed at their disposal. This showed the very ge.
serous feeling entertained towards those distressed
foreigners from one end of the country to the other,
and he had little doubt that the call Now made,
aided, -as no doubt it would be, by the powerful
support of the press, would be answered in a man-
ner which would afford, the means of future support
for the distressed refugees, and render any further
application to the public on their behalf unnessary.
—(Hear, hear.)

The Hon. DOUGLAS KINNAIRD then came for-
ward to move the first resolution. The public were
called upon to assist those whom Government
would assist if it could.—(Hear, hear.)—The very
judicious manner in which the Committee had ap-
plied the funds heretofore placed at its disposal, was
another ground of a confident appeal to the liberality
of the public. Those funds had been so applied,
that there were now left only 300 claimants. Out
of the 1,500 at first thrown on the public sym-
pathy, there were, besides those for whom Govern-
ment had provided, upwards of 700 who had been
so far assisted, as to be enabled to return again to
active life, and to be no longer a burden on the
funds subscribed. After warmly eulogising the
diligent and persevering exertions of the Committee,
he concluded by moving the first resolution—" That
the absolutely destitute condition of a large number
of the Span►sh and Italian refugees, who were
driven to seek an asylum in this country, gave them
a claim to the continued support of the benevolent."
Mr. J. BLADES said that he had great pleasure in
seconding the resolution.
The motion was then put, and carried unani-
mously.
The CoMMON SERGEANT, 41 moving the second
resolution, expressed great pleasure in being called
on to take a part in so excellent a work. (Hear,
hear.) The Learned Gentleman then proceeded to
observe that the British public did not seem to be
aware of the power it had of doing good. The
force of example on occasions like the present,
where a great object of public charity or benevolence
was to be achieved, was of the utmost importance
as stimulating to similar exertion. He remembered
that when a few years ago the notion of a London
University was started, there appeared but a very
slight prospect of having so great a national work
so soon realised, but now that University was in so
flourishing a condition, that he might publicly allude
to it. That had given rise to the notion of 'mother
learned establishment, arid when the two should be
in active operation, they would be the means of en-
tailing lasting benefits on the country by the facilities
they would afford to its youth of the best instruction
from the best sources. As he had mentioned the London
University, he might add, that on one occasion that
he had attended he had heard one of the best dis-
courses to which he had ever listened delivered by
a Spaniard, a refugee. When he recollected the
high station which that individual had filled in his
own country, from which he had been driven for no
moral crime to seek an asylum here, he could not
but contrast it with that to which he was now, he
would not say sunk, for his present station was
highly honourable, but reduced. But he noticed
the circumstances not so much for the purpose of
marking the change of condition which so many
noble and highly-gifted men had undergone, but to
point out that there were many others among those
now pining on the verge of starvation, who might,
by a little exertion of public benevolence, he placed
in situations where their services might be rendered
equally useful to themselves, and beneficial to the
country. (Hear, hear.) The great example which
the metropolis had set on this occasion would, be
trusted, not be lost on the towns of the kingdom.
Of all the characteristics which distinguish this
great city, there was none of which it had more
cause to be proud than that of its numerous and
well-supported charities. Its great and princely
hospitalities would do little to distinguish it from
other cities, or rather would derogate from its res-
pectability, if the poor and distressed were suffered
to perish at the door; but here no such charge
could be made, for if its hospitable entertainments
were great, they still fell far short of the munificence
of its charities. (llear, hear.) It was highly gratify-
ing to learn the amount of the subscriptions placed
at the disposal of the Committee. Two thousand
pounds was a good fluid as a corner-stone to begin;
but it was not yet a fund to draw from: bat it was
great in this respect, that it took away all ground of
despair from those by whom the charitable work
was begun. They could now look forward with
confidence to such a subscription as would realize
their great object of raising those helpless foreigners
from dependence to a reliance on their own future
exertions; But before he concluded he would state
to the meeting that he had been commissioned by
an Hon. and Learned Friend, illustrious for his
powerful talents and great acquirements, to express
his regret that professional duties, which could not
be postponed, prevented his attendance.' His Hon.
and Learned Friend was engaged in a most import-
ant cause, which had for several days back occupied
the attention of the Court of King's Bench. He
(the Common Sergeant) could, however, assure
the meeting, that the object for which they had met
had the warmest wishes of his Hon. and Learned
Friend, who had also commissioned him to present
his contribution. The Learned Gentleman then
called the attention of the meeting to a second,"sub-
scription of upwards of 401. from the parish of Ro-
therhithe, the former subscription having been 80/.,
and observed, that if similar efforts were made in
other parishes, they would be attended with the
happiest effects. The Learned Gentleman con-
cluded by moving that the report of the Committee
having announced " that the funds subscribed since
1824 were exhausted, a new subscription be opened
in the metropolis, in the hope that the example may
be followed in other parts of the country."
Mr. LABOUCHERE seconded this resolution, and
observed that the distressed and destitute individuals
in whose behalf the present appeal was made had
now no other hope of relief but in its success. Go-
verninent had already done its part in extending the
bounty of the Crown to a large number of the refu-
gees. Mr. Peel and, other members of the Govern-
ment were known to take a deep interest in the fate
of those for whom no such provision could be made.
The public press had nobly performed its part by its
powerful advocacy of their claims, and it now re-
mained for the public at large to evince their sym-
pathy by liberal contributions. He trusted they
would cheerfully perform die duty which thus de-
volved on them.

The resolution was then put, and carried unani-
mously.

Dr. LUsHINGTON, in proposing the next resolution,
said, none but those Ivho felt it could be fully aware
of the deep wretchedness of being from home, from
country, from family, from early friends and associa-
tions, and be cast on a foreign land without friends
or property, or any means of acquiring subsistence
by their own exertions. Those, however, who lived
in affluence and comfort at home might form some
correct notion of such privations by imagining the
case for a moment their own. The very thought
was too dreadful even for a short contemplation, yet
the bitter reality was now felt and endured by many,
who once had as little conception that the case would
be theirs as any of those who heard him. And let
it be recollected, that they who were thus driven
from their homes and comforts were not, for the
greater pat t, of that class who possessed but little :
they were those who moved in a high sphere, who
filled important civil and military functions, who
possessed rank and fortune, and—what should endear
them still more to the sympathies of Englishmen, who
possessed principles which they preferred to either.
For such men it was impossible to suppose that an