The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-03 00:00:00

SCOTCH BURGEI,S3.

Zeor d-A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Bur-
' gee ere.seind Members of the Guildry of EdinbUrgh, complaiping
I.t the 'very improper and corrupt manner in which their Ma-
keet-elites have been elected. The Petitioners stated, that in
Etpet Of obtaining redress at law, they instituted actions in the
Curt of Session, and incurred an expence of nearly £3,000 ;
. teat, they obtained judgment in that Court, bpi that they then
hovered that the judgment was not binding that they
axiother jiidvient, which also proved ineffectual ; that
the 3lagiat.ates threw every-legal impediment; and every formal
e.7e,'-ection, in the way of the Petitioners obtaining redress ; and
thet.in fact; they had to hope of obtaining relief but from the
interebraice of Parliament.
.;:rlr. ABERCROMBIE assented to all the statements of the
P 4-tition • there.neVer was a Petition presented to Parliament'
Which had stronger claims on public attention. He hoped that
ample justice would be done to the parties.
M
Mr. IV. DUNDAS said, that with respect to the particular'
eaee of the Petitioners, the-question simply Was, that two par..
tieshaving-had a dispute,. they unwisely went to law, and in.;
cierred expence. One party .(the Petitioner!) not having suc- I
eee'tied at law, sought for aid from Parliament; The Right
reaue Member contended, that the cast "of the Petitioners was
Let one, which called for the interference of that House. • •
3lr. HUME said, the Petition was from individuals who had
tamed that the Right Honourable Gentle Mari (Mr. W. Dnn-
"deo was illegally elected, and had obtained a decision of the
Ceeirt. of Session to that effect. The Right Honourable Gen-
ie:reign had cons:qulently sat in the-House two Sessions
'Was it to be Wondered; therefOre, •that he should
::commend thepetitioners to put an end to all their differences?
74-hat the petitioner's complained of was, that individuals who
-s--eyed-under abusei in the Scots Burghs, could get no redress,
azel-were.oyerwhelmed with expences. • The petitioners com..,
j.qained that the self-elected• Nts.&istratcs had squandered
..--17,11,000 of the public property. Did the Right Hon. Gentle-
neezi recollect that the individuals who petitioned were ensiver-
e;ele for the debts contracted ? The Right Hon. Gentleman
:;id. them to wait till the subject. came opt of a Committee
7.'ne. Right Hononiable Gentleman must have imagined that he
vre:., speaking to persons ignorant of the • proceedings of that
herr !)—for they had shewn.no disposition
tee:lY, Reform;.though no one had strewn so little disposition to'
•es - the Right Honourable 'Gentleman himielf. The Right
• kionourable Gentlenian asked the Petitioners to have•patience.
c2ley had had patience from year to year, and now they at last-
carte-fon...aid to ask fcr redress against those self-elected Ma-
eitirates to whom the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dundas)
‘77,14 -so much. :

air It. FERGUSSON observed, that as the Petitioners could
e.c; no redress liórn.COurts of Law, it was very natural that
d..y.should tit: n their attention to that House. He decidedly
o.)..7:ectedte refer the Petition to the Committee on Scots Burghs,
'Thr that Committee .had come to Resnlutions entirely fatal to.all
izquiry—alear ll.. The Members had shown themselves so
i;o tide to any inquiry that hr (Sir' R.- F.) had withdrawn -from
ILA:, Committee, and another Member had followed his ex-
The Noble Lord (Lord A. Hamilton) • from a sense
el- duty remained in. the Chair, but without the least hope- of
Coing any good. -
Toe LORD ADVOCATE defended the jCommittee.. It.
. ,
M be recollected, he observed, that the Committee had.
b,:co appointed three years ago, and that it had made Reports
ut..examplod,- he believed, in Minuteness. So far from •their
1-‘aitig.stopped all inquiry, they had resolved, in every one in-
saike whieli.the Pet:toners had complained, that the abuses
erz; riplained of: did exist. Ai to 'the nature of the remedies,
t.-;4ere..Was a difference of opinion between the, Committee d
tiic, -Petitoners, but it could npt be sa that they had resisted
41-inquiriy, when tliey had inquired idnto and admitted'all the
agiertions of the Committee;
Lord A. HAMILTON said he-would confirm the assertion,6:st:the Court of S.:-ision had come to two deti'sions in favour
of..the petitioners. As to the Committee on Scots Burghs, an-
other opportunity would tome for entering into their proceedings;
tutt.he..wonderW how it could be said that they hail never- re-
sikted in•t4,uiry, when in two instances it.was urged -by himself,
arlit., lir his lion. Friend behind him, and refused. It was
itSiird to refer the petitioners to a. Court of Law, when the self-
c.4:l.cti Magistrates might legally put the money of the Burgh
into their own pockets, and laugh at.the Burgesses. • . .
A.ftprJl few words from. Mr.. J. P. ORANIf, the petition was
ordered to be
-The 11,14rquess of WORCESTER presented a Petiton from
Parish cf Clifton, Gloucestershire, against the Catholic
_ .

_FIUME presented a Petition from Chilley,.. a pri-
ar,t•er- Ilcliester (laol, who complained of ill-treatment—
(lr&.scd. to lie on the table: • • - • - • •
CP..ffi(E P. Withdrew-his.notice of to-morrow, respecting
the baths taken before the Lord Steward.
mcvecl for Accounts of the Officers. on Half-
cf efe, Pensions and Allowancaa granted under the
Uttli CI Geo. r tf,,ordered. , •

Fiord PA LM!...R.STON iai3d various Accounts relating to the
ArrilLEEtinrates_on the table.
"Idr. }INE, after a question to the Chancellor of the Ex;.
&Ape:, moved for a Statement of the Accounts of the Public
v:-ft J. Ford-jal Esq. late Receiver-lieneral of Scotland, and
with *f.A.,.?r:ii Esq.—Ordered.

P.C.:MAN CATHOLIC BILL.
• 'ThA Order of the Day for the third readin 7, of
till Rorran Catholic Disabilities Removal Bill
beiiag reaci,
• 41r. firtorcEr. rose to ask the Right Hon.. Bart.
whPtiirr he had any more amendments to propose
to this Bill.

' Sir joav kinwportT was understood to say that
at present he could not answer the question, but
if the Hon. Gent. would only wait a little time
he -could judge from the turn which the debate
-would take..

Cao Kza saki his only reason for asking the
•wit-Stiori was to 'earn whether these new amend-
ments might Lot at a future• time ,fodUce another
debate:

Sir W. SCOTT confessed that as faras he was.
;dile to forma- judgment- of the Bill, the' expecta-
tions of-any improvement. of. it, so as to obviate!
the. objections to which it had. been open, had
not been realized. After commitments and re-'.
cisMinitments, and all the elaborate attention that
had been bestowed on it; the Bill came before
them worse than it was before, In the instances'
dflforther Bills, for the same purpose, -they had
diisltisfied one party only. But by this Bill all-
ides were dissatisfied; the party who objected to
it; and those whom it was to conciliate.--(Hear,'
hear, heard)--The other party, the House, had,
stin.equal reason to be dissatisfied. They had no
su;:cess in-the manufactory of conciliation which
they had -set. up. - Their machinery- had - totally
failed, and it had turned out a bankrupt adven-

tare. It was said, that the Catholic Noblemen fore the Ilouee went to do away with Protestant
and Gentlemen were feietadly_te
the Bill, He Counsellors by opening the door to Catholics..
did not derogate from the merit of those Neble= It put both the property and,.theevligion of this
men and Gentlemen, but he could - not look: to country in peril—it admitted Catholics to be
them as proper,guides, in point of faith, in _pre, [Members of 'the Privy Council, to be Governors
ference to the assemblies convocated Under the of Colonies, and what was still more tremendous,
proper Ecclesiastical authority. Resolutions had it allowed, them to act as Sheriffs, 'and, it gave
been passed in Ireland, almost by unanimity, them seats in Parliament. He felt alarm for the
against the Bill. One Petition,too, had been pre- use that might be made of the power given to the
sented to the House from an Ecclesiastic, who had Catholics acting as Sheriffs -in Ireland ; they
been treated with a considerable degree of free- would have the right of selecting juries, and
dom.- He (Sir W. S.) was not qualified to enter, above all, they would be authorised to return
into a defence of that Gentleman, but helcould say Members who were elected to sit in that House.
that he (Sir W. S.) respected the learning, he Ile thought the danger of admitting Catholics to
respected the zeal, he respected the integrity, Parliament had been undervalued-, and considered
which he had displayed, in the defence of his the measure to be revolutionary, because, while
tenets, and he should have been glad to see him it relleYed the Catholic from the old oath of Su-
eneottntered, in an effectual manner, by his premacy, it. required the -Protestant to take it.
more conciliatory brethren, The first thing No catholic Was„to take the old oath, and after
which he had to remark on was the celebrated this Bill passed-, without any hypocriticism, he
exposition of. the meaning of the oath of supre- _did, not see- how any Protestant could swear,
macy. This exposition _was withdrawn, and he " that the Pope neither has .nor ought to have
should treat it with the indulgence due to the any power -in this realm." In his opinion, no
dead.' It was the first attempt ever made to ex- conscientious Protestant, after the passing of the
plain an oath in a different. manner from that in, Bill. now. before the House, could take this
which it had been understood for centuries, and oath. His conviction was, that this Bill would
he trusted that, for the credit of Parliament, it not prove a measure of conciliation. The Ro-
would. be the last. The Learned and Right man Catholic Clergy and 'Laity, he knew,
Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to argue, were now united against it. They gave it
on the authority of the Protestant and Catholic every opprobrious name—they called it " The
writers, that the explanation which bad been Slavery Bill," " The Bill; of Insults," and there
fixed upon the Oath of Supremacy by the sup- was no epithet—no word too insulting to be ap-
porters of the Bill was erroneous, and to contend plied to those whom they sneeringly called " their
that it was the power which the Catholic faith advocates."—ln Dublin, last week, the Titular.
gave to a foreign Prince over the consciences of Archbishop, Dr. Troy, assembled the Clergy,
the believers, which made them dangerous sub- and though they were more moderate than the
jects. fie cited from Selden, Locke, and Clar- Catholics in other parts, they bad come to cer-
endon, passages to prove that it was in this light tain resolutions, declaring that they could not as-
that the Catholic doctrine had been viewed by sent to the provisions of the Bill for regulating
them. He then quoted the words of Blackstone the intercourse of the See, of Rome, or to that
to the same purpose, and laid particular stress on which sanctioned the intermeddling of the Go-
the following passage, where it is said, that ".as vernment with the appointment of their Bishops.
to Papista, what has been. said of the. Protestant The.next place in which this matter had been de-
Dissenters, would hold equally strong for a ge- bated was Limerick. There, as in Dublin, the
neral toleration of them ; provided their separa- Roman Catholic Bishop had felt it his duty to
tion was founded only upon difference of opinion call the Clergy together, and they had come to
in religion, and' their principles did not also ex- certain resolutions, disapproving of the proceed-
tend to a subversion of the Civil Government.-- ings in that House on the Bill before them,which
If once they could be brought to renounce the were stronger than. those previously come to at
supremacy of the, Pope, -they might quietly ene Dublin. Their resolutions declared that there
joy their seven Sacraments, their purgatory and were clauses in the Bill in question with which
auricular confessions, their worship of reliques no Catholic could conscientiously agree—that
and images, nay even their transubstantiation.— these clauses tended to endanger and ultimately
But while they acknowledge a foreign Power to subvert the Roman Catholic religion in Ire-
superior to the Sovereignty of the Kingdom, land.- When -such resolutions- were agreed to,
they cannot complain if the laws of that king- where the Roman Catholic Bishop had called his
dom will not treat them upon the footing of good Clergy together,, he. would appeal to the House if
subjects." lie went on to say, that the house there.were.notaufllcient indications of discontent
was taking a most momentous step, no less than. to induce them to pause before they adopted this
undoing what had continued to stand as,an integ- Bill as a measure of conciliation. He hoped the
ral part of the Constitution of the Realm, from Noble Lord, the, Rt. Hon. Member for Liver-
the Reformation down to the present time. With pool, and the Rt. Hon. and Learned Gentleman
regard to the oath of supremacy, as proposed in its who brought this Bill into the House, would see
modified shape, it was a very great departure from the case was different from what they had sup-
the principle acted upon in ,all preceding times posed, and as nothing could more distinctly shew
and which recognised a full and undivided alle- the feeling of the people of Ireland on the sub-
glance. He then read the words of the oath, and ject than the resolutions he had read, he could
said, be could not help agreeing with Dr. hardly think that any one would be so absurd as
Milner, that it was quite certain no Catholic to persevere in the Bill with a view to conciliate
could take the oath ; he proceeded to areue the Catholics of the Sister Kingdom. Another
upon the nature of full and undivided allegiance, Resolution had passed at the Limerick Meeting,
which consisted "in spiritualibusl' as well as "in for calling a general meetiug'of the Roman Ca-
temporalibus." In the former the Catholic felt tholics as soon as possible, to petition the Lords
himself bound to acknowledge the supremacy of against the obnoxious clauses contained in . the
the Pope, who, as Bishop of Rome, had an au- Bill. An aggregate meeting had also taken
thority in his own diocese, but none properly any place of the Laity of the City and County_ of
where else, unless it was conceded to him by Limerick.. At this meeting the parties had. de-
other. Governments; but no such concession had dined proceeding to business. till they had been
been made by.. the British. Constitution. To es- informed of what had passed at the meeting of
tablish a religion by law, which was in the keeping the Clergy. Then, very. strong resolutions had
of a Foreign Sovereign, was inconsistent with its been come, to. Some Gentlemen present had
genius and spirit, and to regulate the intercourse protested against them, and had complained that
" in spiritualibus" with. that Foreign Sovereign sufficient - notice of the meeting had not been
was to regulate a practice which the Constitution given. But these were immediately answered,
never recognised. The words of the former oath, and compelled to confess, that ample time had
which denied the legality of foreign interference, been afforded for those to attend who wished
were sweeping and universal : if it were the in- to de so. • The protest against the resolutions
tention of the Legislature to reserve the spiritual had been signed by. thirty-six persons, and this
power to the Pope, it would have expressed it. had been treated in various publications with the
He asked Gentlemen to recollect how the power greatest ridicule and contempt, and the resolue
of the Roman Pontiff was spoken of inthesolemn tions had been considered as the universal de-
service of our church.- The passage was so fa- claration of the Catholics. lie considered the
miller to them that lie did not think it necessary Chairman of the meeting, Mr. Roche, to be a
to quote it. He made. a few observations on the most respectable character, but the more respec-
functions to be exercised by the Commissioners table he was, and the more respectable the meet-
according to the. Intercourse Bill, of which he ins, the more strongly did it speak the sentiments
did not approve. He remarked, that there was of the _Catholics ; and sure he was, that had such
no provision made in the Bill against Monastic a meeting appeared, in support of the views of
Institutions, and that the mixed commission of those opposed to him on this occasion, that they
Catholics and Protestants was a double-headed were fully competent to represent the people of
monster.' Ile entreated the House not to put, the Ireland. The Laity had, in the meeting in
Protestant community in danger of losing that question, come to strong resolutions against the
vantage ground which they - had acquired by Bill, especially • deprecating the attempt made
stVuggling through two 'centuries of suffering and op the part of the Crown to obtain a right of in-
blood. We were only now .recovering from the terferencee with the nomination of their Bi-
effects ofthat protracted conflict, 'and the country shops, which they stated must create jealousies,
ought to enjoy the benefit of some repose—(lleac, and by consequence,
_diminish the securities
hear! from •both sides of . the House.)—Other for the Throne -end Empire. .Besides those he
considerations might suggest themselves to other had already mentioned, meetings were announc-
minds ; but for himself he would say, now and ed of the Clergy and Laity for the City and
at all times, that Whoever the persons were who, County of Waterford, and also for the County
under any circumstances, went about to remove, of Cork. One had been called by Doctor
the ancient, laud-marks' of the Constitution, he Coppinger for Cloyne—one for Galway, and 'one
would for one oppose them.—(Hear, hear!)— for the Diocese of Team. At the .Limerick
The _Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman cone meeting reference had been made to the send-
chided by moving, as an Amendment, that the meats-avowed in 1813, and these had again been
Bill be read a third time that day six months. taken up. He did not mean to speak of those
• Sir G. Hue considered this Bill to .be most who attended with disrespect. On the contrary
revolutionary in its character, as it went-to put he knew the individual who presided to he A
down the ancient landmarks of the Constitution, man of most'excetlent and exemplary character;
and to recognise for, the first time that against but then he contended the more conscientious and
which the legislation of our ancestors had been respectable those whO had "come to the - resolu-
particularly directed—a right of interference .tions in question, less prospect was there of corning
with the subjects of this country. on the part of to any satisfactory understanding with them.
the See of Rome, He had heard it argued on Dr. Coppinger had declared the oath contained I
this occasion, for the first time, that the Consti- in the Bill to amount to an abj4ration of the Ca- I
tution of this country was not essentially Protes- tholic Faith ; and was therefore of opinion that it I
tant. Taking the Constitution as it was esta- ought to be indignantly rejected by every good 1
blished at the Revolution, he she wed that the Roman Catholic. Mr. O'Connell had also spoke. I
Bill of Rights had . been particularly directed against it, and therefore there was little prospect,
against Popery ; and in that the Oaths of Alle- if it passed, of its proving a measure of "concilia-
giance and Supremacy were enacted, which were tion. lie had no hesitation in saying, that it was
now to be altered ; and therefore he considered the object of a vast body in Ireland (but he
the present Bill to be a very revolutionary mea- did not charge this generally on the .: Roman
sure. It was -provided in , that -Bill that this, Catholics) to gain the Church of Ireland, and.
country • must .be governed - by a Protestant that object they were satisfied they could not
Prince, and also, that that Protestant Prince must. obtain without a separation from this country:lle.
have Protestant Counsellors. The Bill now be- proceeded to shew that the oath which required

the Catholic to pledge himself not to attempt,
directly, or indirectly, the overthrow of the
Church of England, was held 'by Dr. Drum-
goole to be opposed to the duty of a good gatho-
lic ; And he read from a pamphlet sonia para-
graphs, in which the Doctor-deilared his con-
viction thatAthe Catholic Chucch,would stand in
spite of all opposition, and that finally it would
be again placed under a Catholic King and a
Catholic Parliament. lie also sheered, from the
correspondence between Mr. Fox and Mr. Ryan,
that the views of the Catholics extended farther

than the supporters of the present Bill seemed to
suspect. The Protestant Gentry and Yeomanry
of Ireland, who in wealth far outstripped the
Catholics of that country, would in his opinion
have their property placed it► jeopardy by this
Bill, subjected to the decisions of a Catholic
Judge, and not having their rights defended in
Parliament as they were at present. With these
opinions he was bound to oppose the Bill, though,
should the measure unfortunately pass, he promis.
ed the House—himself—his Sovereign, and his
Country, that his best exertions should be used
to guard against provoking the evils which he
feared were likely to arise from it.
Captain O'Ga,tey would not have risen, but
for the attack which the Hon. Baronet had made
on the place with which he was connected.. The
Right Hon. Baronet had in the first place taken
the Meeting at Limerick as offering a criterion of
the feelings of the people of Ireland. He would
have said the same had the Catholic Gentry
known of the pretended Aggregate Meeting, but
this opportunity had not been afforded to.them,
and the Meeting which took place was but an
importation under the management of Mr. O'Con-
❑el. The Gentry knew nothing of the matter
till they saw the Resolutions published as ex-
pressing the sentiments of the City and County.
He had received a letter from a Gentleman who
was present at the Meeting, who described it to
have consisted of persons of the very lowest.
classes. The chairman was a' most respectable
person, but he was sorry to see him made the
tool of a faction on that occasion. Counter reso-
lutions had been come to by the Gentry on the
'following day, disclaiming all participation in or
approbation of the Meeting calling itself an
Aggregate Meeting, and expressing their convic-
tion that the Catholic Gentry, if apprised of it in
time, would have attended to adopt Resolutions of
a very different character, and of a conciliatory na-
ture. They expressed their gratitude to the Right.
Honourable Gentleman who .had brought this
subject forward, and hoped that he would perse-
vere till he effected his object, and accomplished
the emancipation of his countrymen. These Re-
solutions had been signed by 39 Catholic Gen-
tlemen, and the document was not the less vale-
able for having attached to it the names of the
only four Roman Catholics who were Magistrates
in the county. With respect to the Chairman
of the former Meeting, be had to remark, that
from a letter which he had received from Mr.
Roche on the subject, he could not but conclude
that if he approved of the Resolutions come' to
by the Meeting over which he presided, he must.;
have experienced a very sudden change in his
sentiments.

-Colonel Frr.zaintox considered the It;solu-
tions read by the Hon. Baronet to have been par-
tially selected, and did not regard them as giving
a correct idea of the sentiments of the Catholics
of Ireland.

Mr. S. RICE (City of Limerick) complained
of the want of candour of the Rt. Hon. Baronet
opposite (Sir G. Hill). When he drew the
attention of the House to the Resolutions which
he held in his hand., why had he sedulously all-.
stained from going into the merits of the Protest,
and acquainting the House with the character
and respectability of the individuals who signed
it ? He begged to remind the House, that the dis-
satisfaction of the Roman Catholic Clergy of
Ireland had arisen, , ill a great measure, from a
clause in the original Bill, by which they were
subjected, i,n certain cases, 'to the penalty of,
transportation: The clause was, in fact, a mere
blunder in the Bill as it originally stood, and it
was now removed. The Hon. Member begged
to call the attention of the House to a passage in
a letter from an eminent Catholic, which he had
alluded to on a former night. That individual
stated his firm conviction, that if the Bill should
pass, even with the restrictions which the Go-
vernment might find it necessary to impose upon
the Catholic Clergy, all the restless and dissa-
tisfied spirits of Ireland would, be found trifling
in the scale of the Empire. He added, that the
securities required by the British Government
were no more than other Protestant Governments
had thought it necessary to require. He (Mr.R.)
had never said that the Catholics were unani-
mously, in favour of the present measure.—
To expect unanimity in a question like this,
involving so many complicated considerations,
and exciting the passions and interests of so
large a portion of the community, would be to
expect a moral and political miracle, which
never had happened; and never would. If there
was one part of Ireland more than another in which
some irritation was likely to be felt, it was the
county of Limerick, for there the recollection of
the capitulation of Limerick was perpetually
brought, home to the Catholics:---the recollection
of that Treaty, which, if it had been faithfully
kept, would have saved Ireland all the animosi-
Ces and civil dissensions by which it had been
torn, and have given her at once that tranquil--
lity which, he trusted, this Bill was calculated
to afford.—(Hear, hear !)—While he supported
the present measure, which he considered a com-
promise between the entire demands of the Ca-
tholics on the one hand, and the extravagant
fears of the Protestants on the other, he could
not disguise his opinion, that securities were al-
together unnecessary, and that the conduct of
the Catholics, had not been such as to justify
them.

Sir G. Hirt explained. He had given the
House distinct and full information as to the
existence of the Protest.

Mr. C. ITUTCLIINSON, after complimenting the
Hon. Member for Limerick, said, that standing
there as the unworthy representative of a family
who had now and always stood up in support of
the Catholic Claims--advocatin& that great and

righteotis cause upon the principles of entire and
unqualified emancipation, he wished to offer rt
few observations to the House, in explanation off
the.line of conduct he in ant•to pursue. It walst
imeosible,. but: that. a measure carrying with it ;
heavs.penal enajtments should meet with softie
'whoK)bjectsed ansL.,lie• Z'ouPh.not,
had a seat in that House, submit that' such leer-'
sons should be charged, as they had been
.by his
Hon. Friend, as tools of faction, riotous spirits,
and public agitators. Because, if they :were to
be so denominated, he also must be a tool of fsc-
lion and an agitator ; fer he, had joined in the ob-
jections which had called down upon them those
reproachful epithets. Could it be said that
Mr. Roche, the Gentleman who presided at
the Limerick Meeting, was one of this description
of persons I The Hon. Member here eulogised
the character of this Gentleman. Ile thought it
very likely that all the Irish Clergy might even-
tually object to take the required oaths; there-
fore, he could not suffer that those Gentlemen
should by anticipation be aspersed, because they
opposed what he apprehended was a highly penal
enactment. He believed that it was quite in the
power of the Noble Lord and the Right Hon.
Member for Liverpool, still to modify the ag-
grieving clauses, so as to-, make the measure in
eVery way unexceptionable. It was not his in-
tention to submit any motion, or any regular pro-
position to the House, but he did hope that the
Bill would yet be re-committed, so as to go
through the modifications which he had point-
ed out. He should not vote for the amend-
meat of the Right Honourable Member for
Oxford, because that would go, if carried, to
throw out; the whole measure ;' and there was
no man who would he less willing to do 'that
than hiMself. But he did- wish that the Bilk
could be recommitted. If it was not, though he
should not vote against the measure, yet he
would not vote for it. He was ready to acknow-
ledge, that the Protestants had given up a great
deal, and he thanked them for it. They had
given up what was most difficult for man to re..
sign,—they had given up their prejudices. But
all was rendered almost valueless by oaths re-
quired of the Clergy. Supposing, as he had a.
right to suppose, that the Catholic Clergy should
refuse to take the oaths. Such refusal was de-
clared to be a misdemeanour. To those who
shotild hereafter receive orders,
.this penalty"
would not be sn great ; because they would
have the choice of taking them upon such terraFi
or of choosing some other profession. But then
there were many who had been in posseasien of
their livings and cures for years, who had not
the choice, and must either take the oaths, or,
if they had conscientious scruples, be dragged t°
a gaol. Supposing all the CathOlic. Clere
throughout Ireland refuse .to take the oath,
was the NOble Lord and his colleagues, and evell
his friends around him, prepared to ssYr
that if they did so refuse,' the whole , bodf
of the Clergy were to, be sent to gaol ? Whgt
would be the consequence of such a proceeding?
If, besides the 20,000 soldiers now in Ireland/
they should send all the troops in England and
Scotland thither, they would •not bc ,able
quell.the indignant spirit of the people; If such
an enactment were carried into effect.
Hon. Member then argued that if the oath shou44
be generally taken, there was no need of a Ptlfr
testant Board for deciding upon clerical appoint'
mntste4
.hlt was first making them take the oath?
and, •
diile.nhotelbdelinievileistrit,eamndalfticlo
would not sayingtrltlYe them.
extract of a letterfrom a Catholic, who was fr"
vourable to the general measure. Although l'et
was excessively anxious that it should pass,
he could not -withhold his feelings against this
clauses objected to. Ile stat:i:li that he adroi(-;
ted the unjust severity with i7!!ich they
press upon the Clergy, but must rely upon the ge;
nerosity of the executive, and the mild exercise o'•
the power vested in thein. Nov; he (Air. H.) nould
not so trust, in a case of such momentous, illlr
portance,-to the humanity of an indefinite .Go;
vernment. Supposing the Clergy to silb.lcc,
themselves to the penalty provided by
the enact;
ment, would the Magistrates act aa.ainSt theni;
If they did, they would have the whole count''ry.
up in rebellion : and if rebellion could be juste
tied, it would be under,such circumstances. 11.1
Hon. Member repeated his wish that the 13'11
should be re-committed, and his intention s(
not voting for it, unless they should. leave 00t
altogether the machinery of that part felati4
to the veto.

My. STEWART
‘denied that the Lord Primate
of Ireland was friendly to this Bill, as the Be".
Member had undertaken to say ; that,PrelW'
on the contrary, intending to attend in his place
in the House of LOrds for the purpose of v 9-095
against it.
Mr.l-luTermtsoN said, that he had merely re-'
putted what had been communicated to llitll./
without vouching for its authenticity,, but that 11 r-
;
was very sorry to hear what the Hon. Mernbe
had just stated.
Mr. Er.r.rs (Dublin) rose to enter his prole
against this bill, of which the first part made t.:tl„,
(."
greatest alteration in the constitution of
country, and of which the second part
clepriyeu
the nation of those advan':ages which aiooe "n 1
authorise the passing of it. He brought to the/
consideration of this important question prep'
experience of the feelings of tb,c, Protestarit
habitants of Ireland than it Was possible for the
R n fight Tio. mover of it f
dave ever ar-r.i- Atred with
his retired and unobtrusive He stated
that circumstance in artier that he might, in the
name of the people of Ireland, and of that pro'
fession to • wh;ch both the P:ight Honourable
Gentleman dUd himself had r.te honour to belong,
give a mo",t decided contra.dietion to the Rt. Hon.
Gentl
fl
,man's assertion relative to the, satisfitc-
ea. "which it would create. among tll sects
and classes in Ireland. Indeed those assertion?
were most pointedly and decfeedly contradicted,
in the petitions of the Protestant community 01
Ireland—(?loud cheers answered br /Duller
laughter)—in the petitions which he bad bad the
honour of presenting from Ow. city which be I.e"
,presektted, the second city iv* this mighty ernPre
'---(cheerS arid laughter as befotv)—in Chose
petitions were the names of indivitluals of thei.
firsp rank and- character in Ireland 3, 'vita

Individuals, the Right lion. Mover's rivals at the
bar, in rank, talent, and eloquence. The lion.
Member then proceeded at great length to argue
against the expediency of passing- this Bill ; he
Said that the' excuse made for passing it was the
irritation which existed ; but unfortunately it
:las not calculated to remove that irritation : ou
t-e contrary, it was rejected by the Catholics,
though some lion. Members seemed to wish to
niflict it upon them. But besides the objec-
!l3ls which *he felt against it on account of
Its' inexpediency, he had others derived from
the religion of the Catholics themselves. He
had been informed that several individuals who
had been engaged in the rebellion of 1798, which
he should always designate a Popish conspiracy,
had withdrawn from it, because they found that
the object of the Popish priests engaged in it was
Jaot to establish liberty but popery, not to found
.A. republic but popish despotism.—( Loud cheers
mingled with loud laughter.)—Looking at the
Provisions of the Bill before the House, the
Powers which it proposed to give, and the powers
,Which, under its operation, would be still Is ali-
uekl, he (Mr. Ellis) could view it only as a
solemn humbug. What could be said of a mea-
sure which gave to the Catholic the right of vot-
ing in the election of Members of Parliament,
411 d denied him that franchise in the choice of a
church warden—which refused him a hand in the
repairs of the parish church, and yet committed
t° his care the whole fabric of the constitution ?
i-,
seemed as though Hon. Gentlemen deemed the
animosity of the Catholic directed against the
mi.alls of the building, and not against the wor-
P carried on within it. Equally anomalous
'vas the, scheme of entrusting to Catholic Judges
the presidency of courts of common law, and re-
fusing to persons of that persuasion judicial au-
thority in ecclesiastical courts. The whole was
?Ile great mockery. He (Mr. Ellis) expected to
h" accused of prejudice. If he was prejudiced,
is prejudice was one of somewhat extraordinary
growth. He had himself been nursed in all the
'Flings of Popery ; he had cherished the warm-
est desire to give liberty and equality to creeds
Of every class; and nothing less than a convic-
,ti" of the dangers to be apprehended from the
unrestrained freedom of the Catholic faith had
compelled him at length to take up different opi-
nions.

Mr. ROBINSON said, it was not his intention
even, to attempt a defence of the Right Hon.
XBOVer of the Bill against the unreasonable attack
-which had been made upon him by the Hon. and
•I...earned Member who had just sat down ; though
It was fortunate that that attack had been made
in the Right Hon. Gentleman's absence,(llear,
hear!)---If the Hon. and Learned Member
thought the Rt. Hon. Mover not able to ascer-
-1441 the opinions-of the Protestants, surely it was
POt too much to reject- the authority of the name-
less Barrister, who had been quoted as being in
Pimiession of the opinions of the Catholics.--
(Cheers.)—But he (Mr. It.) believed, that not-
'Withstanding the ravings of-Mr. O'Connell's elo-
quence, the measure would be generalfy satisfic-
ttl. He had heard the Hon. and Learned
,-I'tubet With regret, when he referred to the
troubles in. Ireland; because he considered
lie as the raking -up of the ashes of a fire, which
had hoped was altogether extinguished. The
-11°n• and Learned Mem-her had-spoke with all the
Zeal of a convert. He (Mr. It.) was also a con-
I4t; for his early impressions were adverse to
itpresent queStibn, and he entertained an here-
a
gay admiration for every thing connected with
she Resolution ; though he had now brought
.to self to giVe his steady and cordial support-
t!ie present Vpon the question of
4ngei, the opp3sers of the. Bill referred the
t-imuse to the time previous to the ReVolution.
grey had, however, a right to look also at what
sl4'qd .taken place since- the Revolution with re-
,,zl.- to our foreign polity, in this respect a.
slight examination would prove that no war
Which we had been engaged since that period
been connected with religion. [The Right
O. Gentleman, In support of the argument;
lere. entered into a review of the wars in which
*e had been engaged Since the Revolution.]
And during the whole 'of these wars what had
L
oecqthe -of the power of the Pope ? The Mutt-
ers 'of the Vatican had become the bruitun litl-
4en of the Catholic Church ; and hi fact the
greatest" blow ever given to the Papal power had
t e.en given by the late Emperor Joseph of Ans..
1114----(Clieers.)He really could not see upon
e'llat ground any man at the present day could
,h".itire up a fear of the power "of the' Pope. So
1-140.1 for the general principle ; and he would
W very ahertly address himself to the detail.
Pon this subject the Right ,Hon. Member for
t}4:""duilderry (Sir George Hill) had observed,.
et he thought no honest Protestant could take
Oath after the passing of the present Bill.
no doubt the Right lion. Member consi-
eed a formidable danger, as it might be Con-
qerect. a 'solemn- requiem to his sitting in that
LA.°see----(A laugh.)—ln his (Mr. R.'s) opinion,
i(wever, the oath meant that the Pope had not
11'41 kind of legal power which he possessed when
r 4 State Religion was Catholic. If indeed the
'Ott liotL Gentleman's argument was correct,
eY were all perjured nos:.--(hear!)--For even
joration of the Catholic religion in this country
Nruitted ri certain degree of power in the Pope.
jeits,ers.). -Another araument of the Right Hon.
''''4lnber Was founded Upon a quotation from a
.I• 31% -Drumgoolc, who he (Mr. R.) understood
',vas a physician without patients.—(A laugh.)-7--
if they were to take the opinion of this Doctor
4S those of the Catholics, they might with *equal
itistice take the nonsense of Mr. Hunt as the
sense-of the country.—(A. laugh, anti, hear, hear!)
third objection of the Right Mem-
tier, and which was the last topic upon which he
should touch, -was the probable conduct of the
frisk Protestant Nobility and Gentry in case
the present Bill should pass. He (M. R.) was
glad that. the Right Honourable Member had
lti.ii,_usse!f furnished 7hitn with an argument against
Imaginary danger. The Right H o u r -
able- Member, while he opposed the Bill, had
.imseif :said, that if the Bill should pass, he
would du all in hisf6oli
power to • assuage irritated
Wherever cgs
was they might exist. He (Mr. ft.)
'AO Ord Ow Right ffou. Member' was a man

of honour, and would keep his promise. Tire was
satisfied too, that the Irish Protestant Nobility
and Gentry would take the same line of conduct,
for he was satisfied they were too generous, too
just, to take any other—(Cheers) ;—and he
hoped to see the Catholic and the Protestant in
that House with no other feelings towards each
other but those of kindness, of friendship, and
mutual desire for the honour and the happiness
of their country.—(Loud and continued cheers.)
Mr. GOULBURN op-posed the Bill. He would
shortly state his sense of those dangers which
he conceived must arise from admitting Catholics
to political power. He thought the admission of
the Roman Catholics to political-power imprac-
ticable, when it was considered that they held
principles hostile to a chief part of the Constitu-
tion, and particularly when this hostility was
not a factious, but a conscientious hostility. He
did not mean to say that a Catholic would 'not
be as ready as any man to protect the country,
in case of internal convulsion or foreign invasion ;
but he thought it impossible fora conscientious Ca-
tholic to discharge part of the duty of a legislator,
namely, to retain inviolate the Protestant Church
in its discipline and regulations, so as to render it
subservient to the improvement of the people.
Catholics did not pay an entire allegiance to the
Sovereign, and on the ground of paying a divided
allegiance were aliens excluded. On the same
ground Catholics ought to be excluded from a
share in legislation:
.He did not apprehend im-
mediate
danger from the admission of Roman
Catholics, neither did he think that the House
would be immediately filled with Catholics, who
would propose a repeal of the restrictions in the
present Bill. He did not think the Catholics so
deficient in prudence as to make such a proposi-
tion, neither was it by such means that such a
measure could be carried ; but he did think that
a party of Catholics, by watching opportunities,
and by steps , almost imperceptible, might ulti-
mately gain such a party as would enable them
to carry their ulterior object. What were
the consequences to be apprehended from
such a party, if there were a Monarch in-
different to the ProteStant religion ?—(lfear,
hear !)—He knew the Constitution guarded
against the possibility of the Monarch being a Ca-
tholic; but if there were a Minister attached to his
own religion, would L not be likely that he, by
the ordinary influence of Government, might ob-
tain the support of many professing the Protestant
religion to carry his object. They were told that
the present Bill would only admit six Catholics
into the House of Peers, and that, they could not
be expected to carry any measure in opposition
to the Protestant majority. But he would ask,
where would be the impediment to a Catholic
Minister to augment the number, and to make a
respeetable party to give sanction tohis mea-
sures ? Though the Catholics had been admit-
ted to all other offices, yet there would be some
security if they were excluded from the Bench ;
but as the House had thought fit to admit them
to that high station, he thought the only check
to the machinations of a•Catholic Minister taken
away. If the statement of the Hon. Member for
Cork were true, that the effect of the Bill would
be to imprison the whole Catholic priesthood of
Ireland, he (Mr. G.) denied that this could be
called a measure of conciliation.

Lord BrNNrivo rose, amid loud cries of Ques-
tion ! Question ! He thought the dangers spoken
of by the Gentlemen who opposed the Bill ima-
ginary; and contended that the Catholics in fact
possessed political power, but that they wanted
the means of enjoying it. lie did not think that
even a Catholic King could, in opposition to a
Protestant Parliament and a Protestant people,
effect any alteration in the Established Religion,
which the Acts Union of Scotland and of Ire-
Lahti made part of the fundamental law of the
land. The English Catholics suffered a hard fate
with patience, and the thee was now come when
their patience should be rewarded. They were
differently circumstanced from the Catholics of-
Ireland, hut that very difference rendered their
present claims of the- highest importance.
Mr. liuTcnixsoN explained, amid cries of
Spoke ! Spoke !

.Mr, PEEL said he Was anxious to have the last
opportunity of addressing the House.. He could
not allow the observations of the Member for
Limerick to pass unnoticed, when he called
upon their ancestors to fulfil the'obligations of
the treaty of Limerick. The House was now
unfettered : if it were a questiOn of good faith,
there was no discretion to exercise. The articles
of Limerick were familiar to every one ; and ex-
cept the first article, there was no possible argu-
ment to be founded on this subject. By that
article their Majesties
.undertook to give the
Roman Catholics such• privileges as they'could
procure for them. But the terms were privilege
in the exercise of their r,414r,i0n as in the time of
Charles the Second, In his reign they were ex-
cluded from every office by the fact of the Oaths
they were obliged to take. The Parliament 'in
Dublin took the Oaths of. Supremacy. No
argument could be founded on the articles of Li-
merick, and such an argument could only increase
the disappointment of the Catholics and the
result of their success. The two chief con-
siderations, that , weighed with him on this
measure were, in •the first place, because of a
most material change in the Constitution ; not
perhaps a certain change, but -one which, must
be viewed with great alarm and anxiety.
Changes generally should be so viewed ; but
where these changes referred to matters of reli-
gion, they become subjects of especial considera-
tion. In the present instance these changes
were most
.material, for they net only affected
the Protestant Establishment, .but: they also af-
fected the relation of the Catholic Religion with
the existence of the State. .Every man who va-
lued the existing Establishment must necessarily
look to these changes ; and if he only looked to
the Consequence of these changes, the result must
lie, at least a' careful investigation of the claims-
now preferred, on the part of the Roman Catho7
lies. He did not 'speak of changes to excite a
prejudice ; he talked of Changes as they shbtild
be viewed. Thi:-! second objection he bad to the
mi,asure.was,., the undefined state in. Which the
Roman Catholic Religion wOuld stand with re-
spect to this country.. The Rettoration and

the Revolution, ex vi tenioris,ihewed the change,
and it was of the utmost importance to mark
it. There were three great periods in our
relation to the Roman Catholics, during
which a divided allegiance was completely
put down. Exclusion from power wttS hitherto
the security ; but now, when, ,about to de-
troy that, it was forced upon him to idols at
the state of existing circumstances. The'relation
of the Catholic religion with the State was now
to be settled ; and he asked if the present Bill
was to be considered as a final settlement between
both religions ? If this Bill were passed, was'
no settlement to be made on that important
point ? It was in vain to imagine thdt things cdtild
rest where they now were ; and who was to say
the present Bill might lead to no futuro 'explas
nations—to no future misunderstandings—to no'
litigated controversy between zealous partisans
on one side, and doubting Protestants 'on the
other ? The manner in which it was already re-
ceived, shewed they must prepare for contro-
versy. The question should be considered, and
met as it existed. Bishops in every diocese,
Priests in every parish, and Consistorial Courts
ins the plenitude of their power, would by this
Bill be recognised ; and was the House aware of
the influence which would thus be exercised ?
He did not argue against visionary fears- or
imaginary dangers, but he- argued against an ex-
sisting power of which the House seemed not to
be aware. Looking to other systems of religion,
the influence of the Clergy was little; looking to
that of the Roman Catholics, it was immense. The
importance of the influence of the Roman Catholic
Priests was not to be regulated by their fees alone.
Then with respect to education, he had lately
had a letter from Mr. Newenham, and he had to
state that the Roman Catholic Priest withheld
the ceremony of the Eucharist from a woman Who
allowed her son to attend his school, alshough the
Douay Bible was the school book. The Roman
Catholic peasant could not be swerved from hi 3
belief; and if the influence of the Priest could be
so exercised as he had stated, he (Mr. P.) was
justified in saying, the existence of the Roman
Catholic religion with reference to the State
should be precisely known. The oath to the
Pope might be accommodated ; but they would
be only legislating in the dark if they did not
know the authority of the Bishops, the heads of
the Roman Cathelic Church in Ireland. This
oath to the Pope was, " Jura, privilegia,, et
honoree servare, promovere, et augere jurabo."
Now, hew was such an oath -consistent with...se-
curity to a Protestant Government ? He did not
mention this invidiously, and he quoted it in the
language of their oath, inn order to prevent the
possibility of misconstruction. This perhaps was
a distant danger, but it was one against which it
behoved the' Legislature to provide.—(Hear,
hear !)—lt was inconsistent to acknowledge
the powers of these persons us Parlia-
mentary Commissioners. To remove scruples
would be a good, and to abate prejudices highly
important. But give the Bishops a legal juris-
diction, and you would soon have them claim to
appear in their robes-. For could it be imagined
no ingenuity would be exercised on their parts,
to assert what they would call a right, and
which you would' scarcely refuse to acknow-
ledge as such, when you gave them that legal
title, which was-hitherto denied them, as the best
security to- a 'Protestant State ? These were
portant questions, and now was the time to con-
sider them. Claims for temporal rank were al-
ready considered, when-the Lord Bishop of. Kil-
dare was in the Chair—not the. Protestant, but
the titular Bishop. He was there so denomi-
nated, if he were to believe the newspapers ; and
was the House to be blinded to the claims that
hereafter would be made ? Conflicting jurisdic-
tions would in this way not only be establish-
ed but recognized, and recognized iu opposi-
tion to all that the wisdom of their ancestors
had established. He was adverse on these grounds
to an establishment for the Catholic Clergy.—
But then, with regard to the power of the Pope,
he .(Mr. Peel) was asked if he saw any appre
hension ? He saw none. lie 'knew the present
to be a domestic question, to be decided on by
domestic grounds. At -the Restoration, when
the Pope was threatened by the French Ambas-
bassador with 500 men; the only answer of his
Holiness was the very unsatisfactory one of mar-
tY rdom.—(Hear, hear !)—There was no analogy
between the case of Hungary and that of the
Irish Roman Catholics, as 'to extorting conces-
sions. But if there were; could they 'hope to
pass the measure as one of conciliation ? There
*as all the difference in the world in the situa-
tion of the two people and the two countries.
Were the Catholics of Ireland the few, as they
were the many—there might be some party in the
argument; but when the circumstances were al-
together changed, the shadow of a semblance
was entirely done away. The great point for
deliberation was, the relative situation of Ca-
tholics with .a Protestant States if once this Bill
were passed into a law. That was his main
ground of objection. Splendid declamation did
not alter his vieWs, what he felt and stated in
1817, he felt and stated on the present occasion.
He was at all events consistent ; anti if tine union
of the House declared the Roman Catholics should
be admitted to the highest offices of the State, he
would endeavour'to reconcile himself to it. His
objections were formed on principles, and were
still unanswered. lie had no idle apprehensions
of one power or another, his fears were for the
safety of the Protestant Constitution. Preserve
that if they could, compatibly with the existence
-of the Roman catholic religion and its unbroken
hierarchy ; if they, succeeded, they would do
more than he was aware they could accomplish.
The influence of their prelacy and priests was
hitherto undenied ; if that influence were consi-
dered as not inimical to a Protestant State, he
hoped, in the event of passing the present Bill,
the House would have no reason to call him
a false prophet. Ile felt sincerely what -he
said s and he did not wish unnecessarily to
inctunber the question ; he reposed every
confidence in the wisdom and intelligence
of the House ; but, at "the same' time, he Wished
them to know the extent of the measure they
were about to carry into a law. Ile had al-
ready stated his two main objections to the rnea-

sure; first, a change ilt the mode of administer-
.
ing the Constitution; and 'secondly, the strange
relation in Which the: Roman Catholic 'religion
would be placed in With •reference to the State.
On` these tOpicS hC rested his resistance 'to this
Measure. The influence of the Catholic Clergy
did not Seem to • be understood; but he did not
wish to:exaggerate it to answer any improper or
invidious purpose: The whole case should be
stated to know its truth ; and in taking the part
he did, he. Merely discharged ' conscientiously his
duty. The state of the. question was this—there
being two -nations, which had been United- for
twenty yearsstwo islands, separated by a greater
spice than that which' :divided them from
their inveterate enemy ; and the two islands'
professing different religions, the eltiestion
was, how should .the Protestant .religion be
maintained in the Catholic :country ?- It might
be said, that one or isio Catholics could have
HO weight in the HOuSe ; but he contended
that the representation of- Ireland would always
have considerable influence;' so would the execu-
tive Government of Ireland ; and he believed
that so great an influence - would the Catholics
procure that they must regulate the administra-
tion Or justice in that country. Many questions
would naturally arisehetween the Catholic and
Protestant, • and it Would' be impossible to pre-
serve -that impartiality which ought to be pre-
served. If, then, it were urged that danger
would be the natural result of a refusal of the
Catholic Claims, he' Would say, that, on the other-
hand, he saw so much danger, inconvenience and
I hazard in the conflict which would unavoidably-
ensue between Protestant and Catholic interests,
were the queStion •decided in favour of the Catho-
-1 lic Claims, that whatever part the House might
take, the Course was pregnant with mischief. Such
was the view which he felt disposed to take : , in
either cases he saw difficulty and danger"; and
he, therefore, in the humble exercise of his own
judgment, chose that path which appeared to him
the ' safest.- Ile thought that the House had a
right to require the proposed securities. They
had been admitted by the Pope, and by many of
the Catholics themselves, and he did not see on
what ground they could be resisted. Besides, he
had seen Resolutions signed by Catholic Pee,-
lates, which went much further than the. securi-
ties now demanded. But when the Hon. Gen-
tleman demanded whether he (Mr; P.) thotight
that the ClauSe would be productive of satisfac-
tion in Ireland, he fairly answered that he
thought -it would not. - • But he feared that
the hardship• of the- securities was not the true
ground of complaint. He would • say nothing
for the purpose of throwing difficulties in the
way ; but regarding. the reception of the law
in Ireland, he believed that the view taken
by the lonourablo Gentleman was correct. The.
Bill of Securities might bp enacted, but how was
it to be carried into execution? - They moat pre-
pare themselves for the conscientious declaration
of many, that they could not take the Oaths 'pro-
Posed. What Would then be the consequence?
Would they fine and imprison ? He believednot,'
but if they did, let them not lay. the flattering
unction' to theii soul, that such *Measure would
repress discontent. If he had had any: experi-.
ence on the subject ; if he kneiy any thing.of the.
clergy ';' if he knew-any thing of the effect whieh
'concession might produce ; if he knew anything:
Of the peaVet"Wheli would sall.remain in the hand_
of the demagogue, he,could not believe 'that har-
mony and tranquillity would be produced by °a.
measure like the present. -There was A sornething.
in the refusal of the RomanCatholics•to take-the.
oath which excited his suspicion. If Catholics ht
every other country could take it, if the Pope
hiniself had sanctioned it, then he could not help
suspecting that there must be more than thenio-
tisies alleged, Which could account for the'non-
,compliance of the IriSh Catholic. With regard,
to the Stencture'Of the Bill itSelf; after it had been
madelled by such able artists, it could not be •ex-
pected to afford much ground for criticism. • Yet he
imagined-that too -much confidence had-induced
carelessness ; for in the -1 first -lines, which he con-
ceived were -intended to be molt importantS there
occurred a mistake which he wished to see•dor-
rected before theßill reached the House of Lerds;
It was declared -that the Protestant religion was
by " the-Act for preserving theCrown„and.secur-!
hie the liberties of thesCrown,declared to be 'per-
manent and inviolate." What
.'was"- the . Act to'
which allusion was made If -the: l lth and 'Nth
of Mary and William was. the Act alluded to,.he
hoped that the framers of the Bill would atleast'
look to that Statute, before the,. Bill was. taken
. to the Lords. He would not press the subject
further. Believing, as he did, that the Measure
now proposed would not produce tranquillity, or
tend to consolidate the interests of the two coun-
tries, he•should vote against .the third reading of
the Bill,—(The .11on. Gentleman sat down
amidst the loudest cheers.)
Mr. Casss-isas would not:folloW the Rt. TlO'n.
Gentleman „through, the 'ery extensive and la-'
boured aegument which he had endeavoured with
so much perspicuity and force to establish; -as
against 'the present Bill; if, like-his-I-lA-Ilan.
Friend, he (Mr. C.) could believe that religious
animosities 'would be more, likely to behealed,,
and the excluded Catholic morelikely to partici-, -
pate in the actual- benefits-of -the-Constitution, if
this Bill should not pass, he shOuld be the less
disposed that night .to press the House to a.cotn-'
pletion of the .present sneasure, inasrisuch as th'O,
great object which he had at heart in the support
which .it was in. his. , limited 'sewer te.gise to it.
Would then be accomplished: -''lle thought,hew-
ever, that the House Was to fools at this present
proceeding not as an act commencing a. nest' .sn
...
ries of acts, but as a crowning act of mercy fol-
lowing, ati:l i'e pursuance of a. variety- of othors.
The great qbestion was, "wliettierofpbti the pass-
ing of the present Bill, there st-Old • not' be .
a 'more whelesoine state Of- lasi 'than for-
merly. The Right lloneurable -.Gentleman
then went on to argue that it was: Its- be: 0:-
thered from the murmurs of the Clergy thati ht
iflak this Bill' might be considered. a boor. to the
laity, and thsst ity-prOvisions---Veeria-noti'vr that
terrible- and" dangerous character which' s '•4:
of ita-entanies represented. ' ale. next tone era
u pen 'the nninher -of • Catholic Members thafiv re' -
t
likely to be introduced by it into ParliaMent,

, .
contendinghin c.optradiction,to• the opponents of,
the measure, that iosteacl.of "lb front Ireland end
30 from.-England? the. Utmost 'that wouht fireta,
bility tie -returned wotild be a dozen in the wlmie:'
AAMitting, however, that"more Might obtain. on.= .
-trance, allowing- even, that the viSiou Ole
hundred Knights was to be realized, still lie
asked in -what way would they be able to:sot
-the destruction of the- Constitution? The. Dater
side who talked so.much of danger was liOnaci..6
.show from whence it would Proceed,_and.tioW it
would operate—in what, way the Catholic Repre-
sentatives would *succeed in corrupting_ the rekt.7-
of the 56'2 Members, or at least the .whole of the-
minorities tin the late chvisions on this sub:.--
ject, ,and.the,greater part of the supporting ma,-
jorities.—(ilear.)—lle contended that the me -
sure was' eminently calculated to conciliate, the
high, and to cement the- Qnion ; the recentns
of *which was. to be considered an advantage in-
stead of an objection*, lintimuch as expectatiolk.......-
indulged since. that event were now to be
alized ; promises, and pledges-were to be
' filled before hope were so delayed as to tuaki--
, sick the heart.. To this consideration must ttle •
House come at last, whatever fate Might attend',
the Bill elsewhere, viz.—whether it was:not tie--
cessary to incorporate the hearts and. feelings ,or
fent. milliOns of Catholics in the same man-
,ner we had incOrporated their laws, their corn-_.
merce, and their institutions ?—whether they
should bo• united. to Great Britain firmlv--
and effectually, or- leave them in an island,Of
their own, and by a mistaken. policy coerce
them .proportion to -our dagger?-whe-
ther they should be continued under the threat of
repression and subservience, or raised to 'a level
with ourselves. The Boa: Gentleman who :hid:.
introduced this Bill with an eloquent precision.:,.
that NyOuld not have disgraced Tacitus,
.pointed::*
out in his speech, as in a funeral processiou,--oe.'
statues of thane great orators who had distinguish---
ed them-selves in this question. -Among the
names he (Mr.. Canning) had missed one now no
more, never second in- the zeal of his reSistance,:r
but whose place had this session been amply:
supplied by an lion. and. Learned Gentleman
(Mr. Ellis,' we understood,) from the same couf:-:'
try ; indeed so-amply and efficiently, so much in
the spirit and manner of the great original; that
little was left to he desired. As applied to that
honourable substitute he might 'perhaps be al, .
lowed to parody two well known lines

" The tone and topics opening to the view,
" Methinks I see my Duigenan here anew !"—(Laughtnr.) -
He might observe,,:in passing, that the mode in .
which this question had been argued had of .1a,te:7,..
much changed... I'orinerly nothing was heard el:::
in conjunction.with this measure but a totterinlT
throne, a tremblinn• crown,' a shaking sceptre-..;,:!'
but now the chief d'angerwas described as thre4t----
ening thoSe exalted parish officers, churchwardens
and overseeis; and "ono lion. Gentleman; di ire.-
gal:ding all his. previous terrors, had
.introdlk.eci.
a special clause for
.their .protection.

" Modo regtt,.attinetetratchas, , • • "
" Oinnia magaloinens ; bit tnihi intnsa ttki;eir
",-Cnaphisalis • ,„
Comparative
,trines now contented one who b-.
fore had dealt only with the.tuost tnagniti4trt
declarations, andilie (Mr. Canning) trusted that
a grateful ;posterity„ 'won Id remember hina mlth
bec.onting honour who had thus . placed •Snch
not round the church, but round'its
seers.—(Bear and 11a9gItter.)--ReferringiOtC(o !I
some general consideratiwts, the, Itt. Hon...Gett. •
-ex•pressed. his decided opinion that the, provisiou •
for ;the Catholic .Cler_gy ought to be made. a !natter
ofsu&sequent consideraiion. kletlesired.the
to contemplate the'Catholiesin their real Charac,•
ter,maintaining tha ca. pri,ori, a Church of England.
man would be metre ready to admit•to
vilegrs one who disagreed .merely on sucb.a
.4c-
culative nratter..as the doctrine of transubstaft,tir,
tion, than one who denied the.great.fundameittal-1
doctrines' of the the. Atonement, 'aita.'" •
the Divinity tof our -Saviour. • Yet • every •da-y-7'
DisSertieri 'Were`ad.mittea :to takelbe.Oath at the:,-.
table, anti to....shace ..the honours:and labours..ui •v•
legislation.: There were more -points .of
ment the Church of man
•the CatholiC,, than 'between the •Chnrcii
laud titan -and the Dissenter. Let, not -the' lioise•
dwell only on points of differetK.e•:-.Let-it
also to .those of resemblance.: lei• it.-.recollect"
that Catholics and ~Protestants were felroirW.;"*.
• •
'were united, by naarrt4go,:..,
and the ties of social life—that

*4 Io the gloiiotif and wdl-foughtet 'fitla
They-kept together is their•ctiry,''
or rather that had . 49ne' before ,the.i.t..
Protestant in .resistatiee to fo;reig-ii
`gether they had framed and supp4rt.ed- the colt,
stitution, and together 'they ;0u1.;14.,t.9 enjoy"rtt
(I fear l)--The time was tiowOomevheit pitblie feel_:
iti.g.was decidedly in favoor of thee.oxicessio,pro,— •
vided it were: :temperately earned,and tiprovid'-:
ed these whom it was to selieve did.- 7.
nof dai:ll the cop from thfir hear;.: ,
hear. !)--For the' teturer of Parliament he
'answer bu t. the' ter.Oper of iiie catitolk" •
he could not be goarkntee:; if, howr4iver,.they had'. ;
a spark of rittiotierri, or if they felt that' Ovefo.i.':
wqkhas their inSt.,rM.-tors,they pretetd-,t
ed to e*perience, they wo:01 not. in pede the
greys of legislation by•hopeles; and•interminable.''
aoitatiatis: Itegar,dless of.interziatkquabbles
party eaVils, let the itott•se now consummate Cult' :-
gren t: work 'which, 'l4-lien.onCe. i:owstr;.m-iated b 4 ::
sooner or la,ter roust be.
tintred heering,)
tO f!.:1
when the riumb+ifwei%.*--
'For'thetVO-r:_artirik - 2t6
ilAioilifta liiToiliasof-le Bill
fe-14dirtiikion iriWthe44:,:d!ety,
V'Ef;ri oun respz:Cunet-theqfp;At..
tlesaiehe woutilii6% fri.Villvrthe fou'l. 'in a. his4;l'
otiject betog .ont:TNI ea lbw :Fc
nail. K conehiliM f; ti;fltt- Ali.
Wbe,reas. kA,th.f.
ornittal. •' 'o4 :CIA'
• B.r- I‘,l.4(ll<ailt(,:';t :the y.'ar.
,st;:irtipi ;to ",tt),-;:‘:-Soz4,,c4411: nos t9'l4\ie'4lll-iiiPAC:
. .
his Citd:Kf.;Aiitik:gr-tl:j4;azne!trSti4'sn. •• .4.01 V
14,1*(1-CA3TIAIR CL'Xckb .0i,211.9:r011.V."40 4*,irktfetiqto'4'Al Ale
; Ht7144.443,43‘,4,14.<441i!1*44 tlittillitkkPqtl3l ; itt? OA. 42:4'
tll-1Y•-41/204,. 't
Several verbal anienaL;M:l2N It VS! trl.ll when,- ofter a
(tips Oticryiltiptiri ftzsriric,ll:ol-cii I Ne.o t i Weid p..sat ,
,awilatsterett Ata_ t;),• t•iir wp Nto RT.
he 0-nit thu wcr! 'of, .40-•
joaracd at Four '(213:;11,7','

•