The Sun.
London, England, 1819-03-19 00:00:00

CONs'OLID.ATED FUND PRODUCE BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of Ibe EXCHEQUER moved
thilt C house should go into a Committee on the
Consolidated Fund Produce Bill.

Mr. TIERNEY ondertood the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to have moved for a Paper to show the
balance that had occurred. He desired to know
it ot her Papers might not be given that would
better explain his object ?
The'Clias4caetma of tie EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to say, he had no objection to the produc-
tion of any paper that would give further infor-
mation nit the subject.
Mr. GeeNeaLesaid theplan now brought forward
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect
to the money in the hands of the Bank, was not
what the House bad a right to expect from the
declarations which he had made since the com-
mencement of the Session, and especially on the
Ist of February, and on 'Friday in the last week.
He appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman hint-
self, and to every other person in the House, it
he had not given them to noderstaml that it was
his intention to take six millions .aut of seven that
were in the hands of the Bank, consisting of ba-
lances of public money, and apply them to the
se, vice of. the coontt y. 4n one occasion he (Mr.
Grenteil) had objected to the motion announced
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, as being confined
to one branch of the deposits in the hands of the
Bank; and upon this the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had immediately replied, that his motion
would go to take 6,000,0001, from the Bank, out
of 7,000,0001. which were io their hands, leaving
with them 1,000,0001. in conseleration of
trouble they inclined iu tuanaajag the business of
the country. The present Bill, if he understood
it, did no such thing. The utmost to be expect-
ed from it was, that it might give the couetry the
benefit of 3,000,0001. instead of 6,000,0001. This
DUI would nut be mote beneficial to the public
than time arrangement made by Mr. Terceira; with
the Batik in 1808, under which the sum of
3,000,0001. was advanyed to the public without
interest. This Bill only embraced one of fifty-
six points in the public expenditure. The other
fiftylfive were left untouched. lie called upon
the Right Ho n Gentleman to say if there %vas
the least probability that the public would 'be
henefitted by this measure to the extent of
6,000,0001.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the Resolution he had moved respecting the ap-
propriation of the accumulating produce of the
Consolidated Fund had successfully explained his
plan., If he had only touched on one out of the
fifty-six points of public expenditure, the lion.
Gentleman knew how much the public balances
in the hands of the Batik had been redneed.—Dur-
lug the war they had held on the average about
11,000,0001.; now on the average they held little
more than halt that sum. A much smaller sum
was now reserved by the Bank to satisfy the
public creditor than that which it was formerly
necessary to leave in their hands for that purpose
while the war continued. In time present Bill there
was nothing
.that could prevent the Government
from reducing the balances in the hands of the
Bank to time smallest sum that would suffice to
carry on the business of the country. For this
purpose the House knew that it was necessary to
have something in hand before it was actually
wanted, but on this account there was seldom
left with the Bank more than was soffic:eot to
Carry on the public business for one week. After
a brief stateereut of several of the items which
gave the slim total now in the hands of time Batik,
he showed the present measure went to give the
public double the benefit obtained for them by
the arrangetnent of 1808, while the Bill gave the
Bank no security that the balances still in their
hands should not be further reduced.
M. TIERNEY remarked, the first observation
of his Holm. Ft lend had been, that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had announced it to be his iu-
tentidn to reduce the balances in the hands of the
Bank from 7,000,0001. to 1,000.0001. by applying
6,000,0001. to the public service, and the answer,
or rather the no answer, which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had given; served to confirm the cor-
rectness of his Hon. Friend's statement. Instead
of acting on the promise he had made, the Right
Hon. Gentleman now brought forward a measure
which only benefittetrthe public to the amount of
3,000.0001. For his own part, he believed the
Right Hon. Gentleman had meant what he said
when lie first spoke on this subject, but that he
bad subsequently been forced to take the part be

Was noW taking Ly the Ban.k. Tine 3,300.0?(1
arrears of the Consolidated Fond, which they as
been given to understand was to be paid by mean°.
of this Biii, was provided for by a further Act
of Pal Ihiment, which declared, that
any deficiency occurred in the Consolidate,'
Fund, the Bank should issue ExcheVeri
Bills for the amount, which shOuld Pt
out of the fit st proceeds of the next rpOrte"
The explanation given by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was very well for those who under."
stood the subject, but it was impossible for and
person who was not very conversant with it
follow him through his statement. He &wit._
therefore wish the question referred to a C°:li
mittee, arid the forther proceeding on the mi.„
postponed. The' Bill to him seemed framed ore
principle of delosioti, to make. the House believ.6
they were leg( laving to give the public the belle:
tit of 6,000,000!. when in truth it only went 17
apply to their service half that sem. 'Die Itigibo
lion. Gentleinao sail he proposed to take
growing amount of the Consolidated Fowl 8,,5:
should accumulate. To this be had no objecf;"l"
lie had observed too, that this Bill could not pre:
vent the Government from reducioa the halt'
hi the hands of the Bank farther. That,
true, but would it not be better that the soorc.
should now be referred to a Cononitiee.of c.
natice ? "I' he inquiry could 'tot to to them !Dore
as the accounts.wete alre.oly made tort, awl it" I,f ht
hope that this course would be takers, he fore
now move au amendment to the motitto.b—
them, that the' House should resolve io-elf
Committee on the Bill on Monday se'linight I, it
Tine CHANCELLOR of the ExCHEOUSH sA,',4 was
was admitted, that as tar as it went this Dili pia
good. Int his opinion it went as far ai nteoncli
ought to go, embraciug as it slid il
one great "tr noa
of Inct subject. He could not consent to p"s'1):-e.
tine Committee on the Bill, but be had no obiere
Hon to refer tine papers connected with 110:t Fart
of the subject which was not comprehended 01-
1
Bill to a Select Committee.
bets e!
TIERNEy observed, the qoestion
them was, as to the effect of this Bill. The C"inva
cellar of tire Etclpequer told them it woola giie
the public the benefit of 6,000,0001. 'ibis,'"
c\lr. Tierney) must deny ; and if the whok slo
Jett were referred to a Committee, he
pledge his existence their report woodd oot
out the assertion of the Right Lion. Gentlenl3:be
Mr. LUSHINGTON declared the Bill gayer Tof
Public the benefit of 6,000,0001. It woold lit of
to their service 3,300,0001, to cover arrears
the Consolidated Fund ; and 2,700,0001. to rePof
former advances of the Bank.
The [louse divided, when the numbers were'''.
For the Motion .......................... 164
For the Amendment ..... ' ................ • So
.Maj0rity........... . • 0056
When the Gallery was reopened, the
was
Mr. i a Commiltee. Pao°
Mrs' TIERNEy wished to know distinct'',
ofo
much of the money advanced by the Bank v
be repaid under this Bill ? as
The CHANCELLoR of the Excusiotc.-r, 581
11,
far as he could judge, about 3,000,0001. or 34
Mr. TIERS:Ey replied, that ,per kg wardiinani of
I .1,.,e10:11
Adii Anaai t
judge, did nut
out
—(
l
it.A !moth.)e "
or n
5 "
it ..v'.vasa tact, that for tire ExcheTtet I).l':ibije
were lately advertisrit to be pilio off, the Peoer,
received interest only at the rate of ""I—ovo'
:virile the Bank received at the ratmeihiol. ci) 014
pence h6llpetiny for the same Bills
told ? said D°
The CHANCELLoR of the ExottlaTirg s • tins
had no (balcony its replying tl'e which
Hon. Gentleman. Tire _Bank, for the bills,
they held, received exaetly the rate of 1_1(1
which it had been agreed to grant them, a"
o.set
its this respect no better treated (ban w'Yeet rain
patty who had advanced money at
rate of interest, and was paid his interest
rate.
°e exactly
Mr. MABERLEY said, it nppeared cone
ict
as he had stated, and that the w"
,peoce,
with their Excheqtier Bills, got only "„. 0( i 0"7..
while the Bank, who did not come in, 7
pence halfpenny. • to hette6t
Mr. GRENFELL observed that the ante
which the public would derive front this vlrea6ol;
Confined to 3,000,0001. '!'here . w"' I“oOttecti'
why it should not extend to the whole 1"1" r cow'
(lie Consolidated Fund. '1 e only reo" 'o,eot ri
filling it to the three millions, was to reR,
from interfeting with tine profits of theil-33:opettr:'
Mr. MARERLEY thought it now, plainiY "i'd too'
ed how much more advantageous it wilok
been to have referred the affairs of theL:e oet;tilu
the Finance Conimittee. That Conynifß igoret
most easily and accurately have fixed the
rate of in:crest.
P"lfit
Mr. LILISKIssON said, that so far t nOl3. to
creditor was concerned, there was 11°
complain of the present arrangerneot• ere 01rte
The various clauses of the Bills waive('
to, and the Report ordered to be re
mortow.
BANKRUPT LAWS.
to lets noti
tielce
'
Mr. JotiN SMITH rose, pursuant
to submit to the House a motion relAtivedroittea
Bankrupt Laws. It was on all hands e paces'
that some amendment these laws weLke onto
sary. It was only necessary for hitt) totter to in'
_
observation on their present state, in °rllll,ly,
sure the House to agree to his motiost :3 salt
that it was at present almost itoitossible, „, • oil
wino was, and who was hot subject to tnebeoefiC
the ground that it was necessary, .for the we.
of tine commercial world, asfor the 101
as • sho
rests of morality, that the 13ankrupt Laws
tore°
Inc amended, he called tonsils the !loose too
tri-iiee
to his morion for leave to hying in a Bill t
and look's(' the Laws tektite to Baukrui"
Agreed to.

LONDS OF THE ATr ifit * f hi§
Sir M. W. ii.tpi.hy vole, in (;ol.Sequence o
notice, to move an Addles, to the Prince 34'11;
praying lor reductiun the number of the 1)'"..1
of ae Admiralty. [le could not bring torwal(
this gik.s.ion without feeling the great ditl"s
of h s si:untion ;
to strike out any new lights on a subject wdlic3
had been .alreddy so often dis Cussed. BOt th"l
was one consideration from which he deri'ic;',.
some satisfaction, and which much tiuhleoed `",
duty, namely, the iwitoutance. of the question
for it "as tar beyond his poceri

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anti he hrepel thathatl7,e "loose, iron) its I- I
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w
So unimportant mis himself who brought it for-
, ard. The gneition had been discussed in the
last Parlianeeit. When he recollected the result.
of the lest discussion of it, that the voice sod-
4)Piiii"
of the Ilonse, supported as it had been
by a numerous minority—echoed as it iVaS by
Public opinion, from one end of the kingdom to
the Oilier, he certainly did hope, that it wool&
:11re had at least the t:flect of indocin,4. his. Ma-'
jesty's Ministers to act with so much grace as to
iefrain from filling op any vacancy that might
becur, till the opinion of the House It as hid
bport the subject.
Affect, But it ha d d prouced ?Mei)
no There had been a precipitancy, not to
ay an indelicacy, in hurrying the aepuitoment
:f an FlOnoural.ile Baronet (Sir Georem Clerk) to
/"PPIY the late vacancy, pending the notice which
iiad given of his intention to brim,; forward
question. With whatever coefinence
itl,isters,might look to the decision of the blouse,
wcutd at least have 'been but a proper respect
itS opinion to have refrained from filling up the
vacancy tin the question was discussed and 'de-
eirled The last time that this motion was in-might
forward, time Noble Lord opposite had resisted it
!oecessfully, by stating that it was a question to
ae decided by the Finance Cmumittee then sit-
ling• For himself he was one of those so•much
ha; to the good old customs Of the House,
.114 t he could not approve of the new plan of
ill'"vinc: the respoesibility of every question ott
'tile 86111,1..1.s of- a Committee. But in par-
•:ll.l4l,ibtlr ease what had happened by following. the
.L.orti's advice. and 'caving the question to
of the Commir tee? He must refer.
‘iottse to the Report of that Committee. It !.
' "as curious to observe the difference of the opi-
Notts exPressed by the Noble Lords in the
-ose and in the Committee. In the month of
the R
lo eport made. its appearance, mind upon
subject it stated the opinion of the.Coruittee
Ithese. ne
words The number and salary of the
4-,, 'd
"0 the Admiralty seems removed from the
'.t."hsitieration of your Committee, by the late de-
iHiOil
of the House." Dols time Noble Lord got
illlieTionse to vote against time motion, by sayiug
~I''tthject ..yoold he (trebled by the Committee,
i-Ih.eg, n he made the Committee pass it over, by
te," them it had been decided by the House.—
Ivals "r"Ple was enough to show how much weight
• til'4; due to the Report of that Committee, if its
.
should be gnoied against his motion tins
It tespectabilt•y of character %vas any bar
late4the
. proceedings of Government Mu filling imp the
(Iheaney, he was free to confess that the in-
111'1'1'11 whom they had appointed, had merit
tlx-":"-ti to mike an exception to the role, if any
were admissible. But itwas riot the
to a Cier qa! CM"
justVy the appointment ; the
ki,:4""e was as to the necessi•y of the office.—
to °loch fur the Report of the last Finance
Liniitee. But there was another Committee
tailt`i kid inquired into this subject, and he
-
the 'Wet to its report. The Committee on
itt'iLtd4c lie;,entliture in 1797 had noticed it
eieretr 1.ti.1,0,t. Of that committee be might
Sfte,,.Y say, that it was as much entitled to the re-
timrn-tsand con,j(leration' of the House as any one
Intt,„"t" ever been appointed. The late Speaker,
0414"tti Colchester, was a Member of it ; Sir
41,14 Y Ryder, now Lord Harrowby, was another
kei-"7,,,er of it ; Mr. Henry Thornton was another,
Charles Yorke was also a Member of it.
14; C"itmtnittee, in their report, stated aS .fol-
ole,-,:"'" Your Committee think it their duty to
itlV4'‘.e/ that the number of the Commissioners
tl,4:leAdaiiraltv is six, and that it has been found
present state of the public service no
Itu could be made," Timis part of the Re-
s;':.-1411"ded to an impmiry which had been ill-•
1111,nt" into !he nature and extent of the duties
s4e-;; t° be pet formed by t ite Lords of the
I.l;ir'';rl4l'Y. the country being then at war.
,tot tit Report went on—,, Your Committee,
111,;.,ers think it worthy of consideration, tvhe-
D9vnjti the time of peace, lay reductions in the
tti ki force, tool in varians departments connect-
to -4 the Ihavll service, the duticb will not be
11,4)?ell diminished, as to allow of some reduc-
, et,wl" the number of° the Lords Commissioners,
11}"elltly with the public service." One part
itwe 'e recommendarion of this Committee had,
r,e!' been pretty well attended to, by reducing
ft,llit.,-ierks of the Admiralty. They were reduced
I),eritt about 50 or 60 to about 30. There had
11,e,111;° eoesideration or hesitation i't discharging
to be "Idividnals. But when the question came
~tiout reducing any of the Lords of the Ad,
`,einti
nitY/ that was treated quite in a different way
Ilt
'The w
? Because it touched their patronaige.
•e as, that for the very sante reason t iat
1:.() (4ks had been reduced, some ot the Lords
tettl,'ssioners should be also removed. The
tioet:l' was the Baffle for both—there was a re-
;list ti,'"f the business. It could not be denied
L''ete was now less business titan there
tile "eels during the war. As a proof of it,
1433' tuber of days for tran,qseting public busi-
Atka
"Is m or, as they are. called, Board Days,
leduced fro five daes in the week to three.
11,4„
so eiune was proof enoueh that there was not
St much business. [low indeed could there
tlou filch, considering the extent of reductions
kr
t:r naval force ? The number of men voted
4lee till the end of the th..l" Navy iii 1707 was 120,000, and from
war, never less than from
4e,...:°00 to 170,000., .and the number of ships in
l3tab‘imiissislimo%nt 7arslretstsiutcheaontelooo. At present the
'r120,000 men and 130
oi!! of war (including all classes) in commis-
.) " Yet with these enormous reductions, the
sb.er oithe LordS of the Admiralty remained
th„i dr" as during the war. It was plaits that
.tat the War there must have been too few to
the business, or that t het e were now too
airy' He ratb • I
._4lthr: reel, t ion stuiru: ICNl"kit vfya," andt with g
triel ce edx t tell:art of
inarit %me con which should place its whole
111511-sit,),:ecereil,im.m.nee On its naval force, should reduce
there
tl"w its efficient number. At the same
anothe,
3,„:.t as evidently a preference given to
• too howeVer great its merits,
'''ent• It "Y favorite of the Govero-
migtu
jt.
t "wild stn'detilv break out, it
b -"tun)
J► •ety (11:FIckAi to collect the great
44avy,
citric be r, trited to man our
ltd wad Ito such obit ciiuu to ikAILIC•

i0.,2: the number of Lords of the Admiralty during
reace. If any of them were reduced, and a re-
tiewal of war should make it necessary to increase
their number to its present amount, it would be
easy to collect them. Lords 'of the Admiralty
were more easily found ttoot seamen ; awl
.when
wanted, the Ministry had only to hold up
their hands, and they would find plenty to ac-
cept the office. In one branch of the service
there had been a reduction %Tillie', he could not
think of without regret, sot account of the in-
terests of morality and religion, about which
so touch was said in these days. A regulation:.
had hcen made (which it was understood would
he strictly attended to), that if any vacancy
should occur in -the office of Chaplain at ally
of the three great naval stitions, it should be-
filled tip front the list of Chaplains already in
the naval service. Yet in the case of Ports-
mouth, he believed, there had been an ex-
ception to tile rule. It his information was
correct, au individual had been appointed to the:
office •of Chaplain on that station not from the
list of Chaplains of the Navy. If he were to look
for the cause of the appointment of the individual,
to whom he alluded, it .would probably be found
in the rcsuit of the election for the Bormigh of
Portsmouth, to the interest of the iodividtial in'
that Borough, end to his political opinions. He.
was:glad to see one of the Lords of•the Adthiraity
-now come into the House. That individual would
probably be .able to inform them of the course of
political education gone through by the junior
*Lords ofahe Admiralty, .which.bad been described
as so instructive, and so 'important to the State.
But he trusted that that Hon. Member, and the
other Members of that Board, would confine them-.
selves.to.giving information to the House, and that •
they would observe the .usual course pursued by
those whose personal interests were involved in the
decision of the House, and refrain from voting in
favour of themselves. Jut the reign of Henry the
Eighth, a Board had first been appointed to take
charge of the .affairs of the Navy, and from that
appointment originated the Board of Admiralty as
now constituted. But from that time till the pre-
sent, there were various instances in which the
Lords of the Admiralty had beet) fewer in number •
than six. He would state these instances,
.and
was sure they were correct. In 1702 the number ..
of Commissioners under Prince George was only
four ;•which was the number kept up till 1706.—
Under Lord Hawke the number was the same. In
1715 there were only five. In 1717 only fire.
Its 1775 only five, under Lord Sandwich. In
the year 1789, under the Earl of Chatham, there
were six, but in November in that year Sir F.
Drake, one of the Lords of. the Admiralty,
died, and the vacancy occasioned by his death
was nut filed up till November 1790. So that
even at so late a period the whole establish-
ment for a whole year was only five. On a for-
mer occasion, when he had stated this, he bad
been replied to by the Honourable Secretary for
the Admiralty, who had stated that it appeared
from all the records in the Admiralty,,that the
bum voted for the Lords Commissioners' salaries
had never been diminished. 'lo that he could
only answer, that 03 examining, the Journals of
the House, he had not been able to discover what
sum in particular had been voted in any one year
for their salaries, as it seemed always to be in-
cluded under the general head of Contingencies.
ate objection which had formerly been made
to any reduction in their number was, ' that
by their Commissions it was required that
there should be the signature of " three or
more" of the Lords. But that objection could
easily he removed by an address to the
Prince Regent, praying to alter that formula,
by requiring the signature of only " two or
more." Another objection was, that unless the
present Members were continued, it would lie
impossible to have Boards at the Out-ports. But'
he contended, that during peace, such Boards
were not necessary If they were, it was ridi-
colons to suppose that Lay Lords, who knew no-
thing of naval affairs—who did not know a 74
from--he was going to say, from a mail coach—
(Laughter)—were fir to conduct the business of
such Boards. In the present state of the service,
he thought it quite sufficient to have three Sea
Lords an 4 one Lay Lord of the Admiralty. On
the grounds which he had stated, and considering
the burdened state of the country, and that the
House was pledged to ecohomy, he moved the
following Resolution :—" That an humble Ad-
dress be presented to his Royal Highness the
Prince Regent, to represent to his, Royal High-.
1 ness that his Majesty's faithful' Commons being
desirous that all such measures of economy should
be adopted as were consistent with the security
of the country, humbly prayed his Royal High-
Deli to giVe directions to reduce the Lords of the
Admiralty to such a number as the exigency of
the country required." _
Sir GROROR COCKBURN begged the indulgence
of the House, as he rose to answer the personal
attack of the Hon. Baronet who bad just spoken.
Sir M. W. Ridley rose to order. He disavowed
il any intention of attacking the gallant Admiral
personally.
Sir Geo. CoCKBURN apologized. He certainly
I thought that the Hon. BarOnet did allude to hitn
personally in what be bad said relative to the ap-
pointment of the Chaplain at Portsmouth ; and
thinking so, he was desirous of answerib:: it ; and
he wished, with the permission of the House, to
he allowed to reply to what he conceived to he
an attack. (Hear, hear !)—Whenever his con-
duct was elestioned, whether in that House or
out of that House, all that he would wish for was
an opportunity to defend himself.—(Hear, hear,
bets'!)—The appointment which had been men-
tioned was made in the regular course of promo-
tion, and not for any electioneering purpose,
as had been asserted. At the three great sta-
tions, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Chatham,
it had been long since. arranged that, if any
vacancy occurred in the office of Chaplain,
it should be filled up front those employed
in the service in their regular turn. When
this vacancy occurred, a letter was written to the
Board to know who was first on the list. Answer
ova;, sent up that Mr. Cuthbert was the first ; and
he was accordingly appointed pursuant to the re-
g nlution. Now, be would poi it to the House to
say, whether the circumstance of. that Gentleman's
being an inhabitant of Portsmouth, or connected

, .
with that place, should deprive hiM of an appoint-
meet which fell to him in the usual course of the
service ?=--(Heai, heter,l)7.--Was he to he deprived
of it because he (Sir (. Cockburn) happened to
be Member fOr that place—an honour of which he
was prond.—(Hear, hear !)—As to
,the main
question, the grOunds on which the Honourable
Baronet had called upon the Horne to agree to
this reduction were mis-stated, if not miarepre-
sewed, so far as related to the extent of the
duties. The ruimber of ships now in commission
was correctly stated to be 120. These were tint, as
during the War, confined to ten or twelve regular
stations, each of which was under the immediate
command of one Admiral, who alone directly cor-
responded will] the Admiralty.
They were eow,
scattered over the whole face of the globe, and.
the commander of alnuist every individual shift
had now to correspond directly with the Ad-
miralty. There was another circumstance which
much increased the business of the Admiralty at'
this time. Doting the peace, when so many
rifficers were out of employment, there were cue-
tinual applications and memorials coming from
them, stating their claims to be employed. All
these were addressed to the Achnirelty—were,
to be considered and answered. Besides this,
there was another cause of business being in-
creased in peace which did not wear dining the
war. While the war lasted,many Officers, having'
their whole minds turned to the naval service,
had their whole thoughts so completely 'directed
that way, that during pence the impulse coil-
tinned to make them devote their attention to
devising means for improving that service, and
they were continually seeding to the Admiralty the
plaits which they devised for that purpose—some
for improving the hulls of ships—some the masts—
some the rigging—some as to astronomy—and, in
short, on all subjects connected with the Navy.
All these were to be examined and decided on ;
for though many of them turned out to be such
as could not be adopted, it would not be said
that they ought to be indiscriminately rejected.
All persons who had been at sea like him-
self, must find that they would be unable to
get through the business of the Admiralty,
without the assistance of men of different habits.
Much and constantly as heendeavonred to discharge
his duty, he found, that without the assistance of
the Lay. Lords, it would be impossible to get on.
It was to be recollected that the Admiralty hail
the charge of the maritime concerns of a great.
country, on which nice and difficult subjects oc-
curred. It was well known that two men of one
profession could hardly ever be found to agree in
their opinions—(Laughter )—That was as true
in the naval profession as any other, and this the
Hon. Admiral, on the other side, whom he saw
now looking at hint, knew vet y well—(Laugh-
ter.)—For that very reason it was impossible to
dispense with Boards. at the outports. Two of-
ficers had been sent some time since to Milford
Haven, and they completely differed in opinion on
a subject of importance. He would ask the lion.
Baronet, who called these Boards useless,• what
ivas to have been done its such a case, without a
Board to decide between them ? If there had been
no Board, the business must have been at a stand.
The fact was, that with their utmost endeavours
they could hardly get through the business.—
Since his own appointment, he had not been able
to spare halt an hour even to take ,a _walk. To he
sure the Lay Lords had not been kept so hard at
it.—(Latighter.)—But without their assistance
they could not get through the business. There
were now three Lay Lords and three Sea Lords ;
but if one out of each class was reduced, and
only two left in each, then the old difficulty
would occur ; and when there was a difference
of opinion the business ,vould be at a stand, for
there would be no majority to decide, tun! no-
thing could he done without a majority.—(Much
laughter and cheering.)
Sir Isaac COFFIN agreed to every word that bad
been said by the gallant Admiral 'who spoke last,
and he was sure that there could not be found
Man more fit for the duties of a Lord of the Ad-
miralty than that gallant Officer and his friends,
Sir H. Hotham and Sir B.Martin.—(Hear, hear !)
But be would ask the Hon. Meniber if he could
say that the Noble Lord (on whose retirement
the late vacancy among the Lay Lords bad been
filled up) had signed any paper (iring the whole
time he held the office, except the receipts for his
salary ?—(Hear,hear!)—He knew that there was
ahnost more business to transact than the Sea
Lords could go through ; but he contended that
they derived no assistance ft out the Lay Lords.—
The late Lord Flood had told him that the pres-
sure of business was so great, that he had been
for six weeks at a time confined to the Admiralty
without being able to stir out. And he knew that
the gallant Admiral, and the other Sea Lords,
were now overwhelmed with business, while the
Lay Lords were riding about and enjoying, them-
,
selves In idleness.—(Laughter) —He wished to
see the mode of transacting business in the Admi-
ralty restored to what it had formerly been.
Sir G. COCK BURN, in reply to the question of
his Gallant Friend, replied that the Noble Lord,
who lately retired, bad signed many other papers
besides the receipts.for his salary, and had taken
his regular turn.of business.—(Hear, bear !)

Sir M. W. Rine:sY explained.
Mr. CALCRAFT rose amid loud calls for the
question, and spoke shortly for the motion, re-
peating and enforcing the arguments of the Hon.
Baronet (Sir M. W. Ridley.)
Mr. GRAHAM spoke in favour of the motion.—
Probably by continuing such a number, Admi-
nistration wished to augment the ornamental and
military part of•tbe Board. Let them, however,
consider, when the people of this country were
overburthened with Taxes, such an augmentation
could not save their popularity, or satisfy even
their friends, if the latter fairly reflected on the
measure. Were those in power to make out a
proper case to vindicate their conduct, he then
should not find it his duty to support the motion.
He thought that a Government might be tormcd
on purer and better principles—formed more gene-
rally on popular opinion, than that which now con-
ducted public affairs : lie meant a Government less
under the cant will of the Crown, and mote depend-
ent on private and, public worth : he did not, now-
ever,wish that the influence of the Crown should be
so reduced as to be prejudicial to the dispatch of
public Winless. In every view of the subject he

kvOti7(l cheet folly support the motion of the Lion.

Mr, CONITN. although in.len,•,ndoot, he
said, in 11;3 (...ondnct, yet tho,,,'“ i duty; on
the piesent occasion, to supp,:rt the S, va,pts of
!he Crown. Th,..y I-airs:led thy plans of those
illustrious predecessors in offici:e had toiined
such . arrangements as had mar dyr contribrited to'
the glory of Oar arms both by sea and laud. It
was therefore incumbent upon hitt) to oppose the I
11101101).

Lord J. l USSFLL !Nicole(' the application of
the science (It as•rotionty to the junior Lords of
the Admiralty. Without meaning any offence, he
would venture to afliiln, that the Nol.!e Lord who
had
..gone out of office possessed as profound a
knoWledge of astronomy as the lion. airortet who
had succeeded him. But, said some Gentlemen,
it was neees•ary that those junior Lords should,
besides a pet feet knowledge of astronomy, alSor
be good ci,ilians— should be distinguished
for their learnitig, so far as regarded the law of
nations—ihotdd, in fact, have Pullendorif and
Grotius by heart !—(Laughter.)—With such ne-
cessary qnalifications, he believed, there would
be found a'considerable deficiency in the persons
alluded to. But, to prove the efficiency and wis-
dom of the Board, the Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Cockburn) stated, that they sent to the outports
men who Were totally ignorant of their avocatioo
—because their reports from any of the seaport
town's, whither they bad been deputised on a sur-
vey, were generally found such a mass of igno-
rance or nonsense, as to require the particular
amendments of those who remained in town
at the Board ! This reminded him of a story
once mentioned by an eminent statesman,
who, in charactcrisiog an eccentric person,
ludicrously observed, that he never spoke so
well on a subject as when he knew nothing about
it ! So that the junior Lords sent to the purports
might be said never to make so good a survey as when
!bey knew nothing of the subject !—(Laughter.)
Formerly, when a question arose, iti which the
vital principles of the Ministers were not endau-
gered, they would readily grant, and even pro-
pose a Committee. Hence a Committee ore the
affairs of the Bank—hence a Committee on tit!:
Criminal Laws—and hence various other Com-
mittees-. But attempt to diminish or abolish a
single place—attempt to act upon a plan of re-
trenchment, by the reduction of one of their own
corps—and then the whole party become imme-
diately alarmed, and use their utmost influence to
resist every inquiry. It is easily accounting for
such desperate expedients; the existence of Admi-
nistration depends upon the system ; and ally
effort to overthrow it, by a retrenchment similar
to that now under discussion, is considered as a
blow aimed at the vitals, the very heart of the
Minister ! He concluded by promising his sup-
port to the-motion.
Mr. P. T. L • IVELLESLEY declared, that he
would not Sacrifice his public duty to popularity.
Notwithstanding what had been advanced to the
contrary, he did not believe that the infloence of
the Crown was too great or too dangerous. The
present motion was of such a nature as to require
his opposition, and from a principle of duty be
wool.' act accordingly.
The question was then loudly called for from all
parts of the House, when a division ensued, and
the numbers were—
Fur the motion
Against it

Majority against the motion 81
The other. Orders were then disposed of, after
which the House adjourned.

PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.