The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

TEM SUN', L014150/q,_S A TVRIDAY EVENING. APRIL I§, WS,

there had been htly defect or neglect in the conduct of
a company which had stopped payment, a report was to be
made to the Boatd of Tr ace, who had power t adjudi:ate
upn it. In 1t42 a similar Act to this had been introf!w!cd
with 33 claescß, and v. Len the Bill -.vent into Committee al the
clauses hail teen st tick cut but tn.. Anotl, r was
pai,e,.! in thr. 're luperial .1111: of Maot;ll.s:er,
in which the only power retained by the company wa,. that
of suing and being sued, and of winding up their affairs
through a public officer. The Act of last session was a good
Act, and it was under suah an Act as that that he thought
- the powers sought by this Bill ought to be exercised, and
not by a private Act ; and he should therefore move that the
Bill be read a second time that day six months.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL recommended the post-
ponement of the second reading for a short time, in order to
give an opportunity of considering the subject.
Mr. WATSON withdrew his amendment, and the Bill was
ordered to be read a second time on that day week.
Mr. NIARTIN presented petitions from the Mayor and Cor.
poration of Bristol, against the Exeter Railway Bill; also peti-
tions from a Mr. John Parsons and another gentleman, praying
to be heard by counsel againt the Bill.
Mr. BRO'fHERTON _presented a great number of peti-
tions against the West Riding Railway Rill.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.
Lord G. SOMERSET, on introducing the consideration
of the Second Report of the Committee on Railways, moved
the first resolution, that counsel should open the proceedings
in railway measures, but that they should be debarred the pri-
vilege of summing up. The other resolutions were of a gene-
ral character, and he need not trouble the House with their
details. He trusted the House would see no reason to objeet
to the measure, and that it would be allowed to pass unani-
mously.
Lord HOWICK expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord
had not brought the subject of proceedings before Railway
Committees more distinctly under the notice of the House before
those Committees should have commenced their labours. The
Noble Lord and the House might remember, that in the debate
which had taken place on the resolutions moved by the Hon.
Member for Inserness, the Noble Lord then promised that
he should propose some alterations in the standing orders to
guide the Committee in their decisions. The House was aware
that one Committee under the present system decided on one
principle, and another Committee on another principle. There
were great principles involved in the consideration of those cases,
and he had, expected that when the Noble Lord undertook
that this subject should be brought under the consideration of
the House by her Majesty's Government he would have done se
in a tangible form. These Committees were now about to
begin their labours, and yet the House was in dark-
ness as to the principles by which they were to be
guided.—(Hear, hear.) He was not prepared himself to
introduce any resolution on the subject, but he thought there
ought to be a general discussion as to what rules should be
adopted. He thought he ought to complain of the silence of
Government on this question.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN thought that, if counsel were not
allowed to sum up the advantages of contending lines, the
Committees would be deprived of very great assistance.
Mr. SHAW opposed the resolution.
Mr. PAK INGTON thought it would be much better to
leave these questions to the decision of the Committees them-
selves.
Sir GEORGE GREY did not think it would be prudent
to let a counsel state the case for his clients before their oppo-
nents had made out theirs, for that would be giving one party
an unfair advantage over the other.—(Hear.)
Lord G. SOMERSET said he conceived it would bs better
to let Committees, in all cases, exercise their own discretion
as to the manner in which the proceedings should be cars ied
on—( Hear, hear)—for it had been found extremely difficult to
lay down rules for the guidance of Committees in this respect ;
therefore, it had been deemed a more prudent course to leave to
the Committees the power of making such arrangements as the
merits of each case should require. However, he now begged
to say that he would withdraw the resolution.
RECAL OF LORD ELLENBOROUGH.
Mr. HUME said that his motion for the production of cor-
respondence connected with the recal of Lord Ellenborough
stood for Thursday n"xt. He now wished to give notice that
he did not intend to bring it forward until the Government was
freed from the annoyance on the Maynooth grant.—(A laugh.)
RAILWAYS.
Lord HOWICK wished to know from the Noble Lord op-
posite (Lord G. Somerset) whether the reports of the Board of
Trade would be laid before the Committees wl.ich were to
meet on Monday?
Lord G. SOMERSET was understood to say that no order
had been made on the subject.
Lord HOWICK only hoped that no motion would be made
at a late hour of the night, when only a few Members might
be present.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he understood that the reports
of the Board of Trade would be laid before the Committees
as a matter of course.
Mr. DUN COAI HE said that the standing order on this sub-
ject was a most objectionable one. It was smuggled into the
House last session, and he would take the sense of the House
with a view to rescind it on Monday.
Mr. AGLIONBY said that he thought the postponement
of the decision till Monday evening would put the Commit-
tees to great inconvenience, and the parties who had their
agents and witnesses in town to considerable expense. He
thought the House ought to meet to-morrow, and come to a
decision.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET made an explinatien
across the table which was not distinctly heard in the gallery.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the motion of the Noble
Lord would by no means interfere with the motion which he
intended to make on Monday. The reports which had 'seen
submitted to the Committee ought to be accompanied with cer-
tain documents from the Board of Trade, containing the grounds
en which they founded their reports. It was the public
opinion that there were ex parte statements made to the Board
of Trade, and that there was gross partiality on the part of the
Railway Department of that Board. The object of his mo-
tion was that certain documents should accompany the reports
of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade, stating the
reasons why they recommended the dismissal or adoption of a
Bill. This he wished to propose now by way of amendment.
Lord HOWICK said that he should make no objection to
the motion of the Noble Lord, but he should take this oppor-
tunity of calling the attention of the House to the nature of the
reports. There was a distinct understanding that her
Majesty's Government bad no objection to comply
with the motion of the Honourable Member for
Finsbury. He thought that the House had great reason to
complain of the great want of care exhibited on the part of the
organ of the Board of Trade. It was the duty of an officer of
that department to have ascertained earlier the necessity of
making much a motion ; it should have been brought fore and
when it would have been practicable. He thought that this
112111F„be Agl:!atrght to complain. It was only
,anolter,
characterised the fiscal business of that department
THE WAR IN SINDE.
On the motion that the order of the day for resuming the
adjourned debate be read,
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord opposite (Lord
ocelyn) whether the documents he (Mr. Hume) had moved
for relative to Sinde, had been laid on the table?
Lord JOCELYN said that some of the estimates moved for
by the lion. Member, relative to certain receipts and expenses,
katbeen received, and he hoped to have them completed very
shortly.

THE HORSE-GUARDS.
Sir R. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. Grate
Berkeley, relative to certain reports from the Board of General
Affairs, said he hoped the Hon. Member would have no ob.
jection to repeat the question on Monday next.
STATE OF THE LABOURING CLASSES.
Lord JOHN MANNERS wished to ask the Noble Lord
the Member for London when his Lordship intended to lay
before the House the particulars of his motion relative to the
state of the labouring classes in this country, for the dis-
cussion of which he had fixed the first of May?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he proposed to do so on
Thursday next.
GRANT TO MAYNOOTH.
Mr. J. COLLETT wished to know from the Right
Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Govern.
ment, if the debate on the grant to Maynooth should
terminate this evening, when it was intended to propose
that the Hcuee should go into Committee on the Bill?
Sir It. PEEL—I trust there will be no objection to the
House going into Committee on the Bill on Monday next.—
( Hear, hear.) The debate has now been protracted to a very
long period, and as the Government have only taco days,
namely, Monday and Friday, for bringing on Government
measures, I do hope that if the debate shculd close to-night
there will be no objection to the vote being taken on Monday.
—(Hear, hear.) I beg to assure lien. Members that no
undue advantage whatever is intended to be taken in any way ;
and, therefore. after the debate closes to-night, I shall
make the motion in form that the House go into Committee on
the Bill on Monday next.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir R. INGLIS said that the country felt so deeply inte-
rested in this measure that he could not at once, without con-
sulting his friends on that side of the House, give his con-
sent ; and he, therefore, hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not
ask him to answer the question upon the instant.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, with respect to taking the vote of
money from the Consolidation Fund, for the purposes of the
Bill, he supposed that would be involved in the motion of the
Hon. Member fur Sheffield. He supposed the consideration
of the Bill in Committee could not take place before some sub-
sequent day—Friday, perhaps.
Sir R. PEEL said the Committee which be proposed for
Monday was not a Committee on the Bill, but a Committee
of the whole House for the purpose of taking the sense of the
House on the money vote included in the Bill, and afterwards
the Bill would be referred to the ordinary Committee. The
Hon. Member for Sheffield had given notice of a motion for
Monday. He did not complain of the length to
which this debate had been protracted, and he hoped
that considering the discussion which had already taken place,
end the discussion which must necessarily occur in its subse-
quent stages, there would he no objection to their proceeding
with the money vote on Monday.
The presentation of petitions connected with Maynooth was
then proceeded with.
Mr. HINDLEY presented forty-eight petitions against
the Maynooth grant from the following places :—From the
parish church at Ashton-under-Lyne, signed by the clergy and
congregation ; from the clergy and congregation of St. Peter's,
Ashton-under-Lyne ; from the Surrey Chapel, signed by
nearly one thousand persons ; from the inhabitants of Ship-
rith, Cambridgeshire ; Yate and Pickup Beek, Lancashire ;
Mortock, and its Vicinity, Somersetshire ; Waterford, Ire-
land ; Walsingham, Norfolk; Snoring, Norfolk ; Great
Jotham Protestant Dissenters, Corsham, Wilts ; Berkeley,
Gloucestershire; Pembroke Dock; Swansea, Glamorganshire;
Calton, Norfolk ; Pisgah Chapel, Flint; Lady Huntingdon's
Chapel, Gloucester ; Wem, Salop; Salem Chapel, Woolwich;
Vet non Chapel, Pentonville ; Salem Chapel, Utley, York ;
Bangor, North Wales ; Barrowden and Morcott, Rutland ;
Cannon-street, Dumferline ; South Creek, Norfolk; Bap-
tists, Church-street Chapel, Blackfriars-road ; Ileptenstall,
York; Wesleyan Methodists, Lostock ; Primitive Methodists,
Baildon, York ; Shipley, York ; Bradford, York ; Helough-
ton, South Raynham, Norfolk; Stale bridge ; Hyde, Che-
shire ; Wesleyan Methodist Association, Warlaggan, Wilts ;
Pilperro, Cornwall ; Clithero, Probruan, and Cayhrenom,
Cornwall ; Tabernacle Chapel, Northwick, Dulne ; Calvinistic
Methodists, Henham Denbigh ; Trevena, Brecon ; New
TabernacleGi
ra n
h eCsh
epieelt,
yOol:dfE-ss Friends,tsrexet.rora,do,cSh letso ; Free Church,
Rochester ; Teachers of Sun-
day Schools, IlarfOrd
rp.
.L Ks
agH:rn
against
tzTati
hnpesrte
grantt.sie en presented
waanetrpeteot
rin,an,yennfort
coo m the Sy nod of
Glasgowl o n and
AY
. ac e (from Devon), Mr. Taylor, Mr. •G'it-elhebriy Mr. Brll,
al
Ha-
milton, i , andito
111 r. ROEBUCK ACktonp.resented a pettion •
from some place,
whose name we did nut catch, in favour of the measure.
Petitions against the Maynooth grant were presented by Mr.
C. Round, Mr. Plumptre (s), Bovirmg, Sir J. Eastl
Leicester ; Mr. Hattie, from Paisley ;, I°Aiee;
Cripps ; Lord Ebrington, from Plymouth ; Mr. T. .Mines
Mr. Bright, from Northumberland; Mr. Blewitt, fronren"\l"-
be;
mouth ; Mr. Grogan, from Dublin ; Mr. Macaulay,' f
Edinburgh ; Mr. Darby, Captain Polhill, and Mr. C. Bruce,m
from Elgin.
Sir C. NAPIER presented a petition from the Protestant
Dissenters meeting at Portland-street Chapel, in favour of the
grant to Maynooth College.
Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Ashley,
Mr. G. Bankes, Mr. Sharman Crawford, and other Hon.
Members.
MAYNOOTH GRANT.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The order of the day was then read.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he felt deep rrgret at being
compelled to separate mself on the present occasion from

many Hon. Gentlemen for whom he entertained the highest I—( Hear, hear.) Ile had within the last ten years ben
reepeet, and at being obliged to differ nacre especially in epinion persecuted, ot:t pn. e utcd, and if he heel net 'ed the Teems'? of
with mane- Members from frelsrei. He also Celt regret at defence hit wene he slieuld have hese. east into a
gaol.
beirg compelled to oppose tee me sere of her .Maje:4,)'s Go_ Hear, ;:t.a.r)—and now was he to be told
verr merit, glitch he was -ure th• y brought forwatd cairn the : that he was a hitlnt. Of all the debates that had Been brought
kindest rhseesoions to cards bre large.—( Hear But. as one before the Howe sine- he lead eetered it, Eone of C.ent had
of tem. e who were in favt,ur ,f the voluntary p: iple. j ever exitthitod (I • xtraerelinary a Tacit': el iti that
he felt r;omp,lieti to vote against it. There were two charges one. Tee lien. eleteber foe P-ot•fral had et-tligl,t.,md titcm
brought against those persons who, like himself, supported the on this question, and what did he say ? He felt in his eon-
voluntary principle. They were charged, first, with concurring science that it was impossible to justify the Right Hon. !taro-
in the former grant to Maynooth, and in the next place, net on any other ground than that of expediency.—( Hear,
they were charged with voting for a chimerical hear.) Expediency, therefore, was the better principle.—
project, which they had no chance of carrying out. (Hear, hear.) In fact, in all debates in that House having re-
With regard to the first he believed it would be admitted, with- lotion to Ireland, expediency was the rule, and principle was
out dispute, that a new question now arose, for a permanent the exception. If Hon. Members believed that this was a
endowment by Bill was a very different thing from an safe because a final measure, they would find themselves
annual grant by vote.—( Hear.) It might be in some degree mistaken. Mr. O'Connell, in his honest speech in Conciliation-
nconsistent wit h the voluntary principle that he had not opposed Hall, attributed to agitation the measure which was now be-
the grant to Maynooth, but he confessed he felt reluctant to fore the House. He thanked Conciliation-hell for it, and
vote against the grant to Maynooth, out of respect to his stated that they would take that in receipt, and wait
the Catholic
established by the Irish Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Emancipation Bill? Did they recollect the agitation for re-
Nor did he think that the second charge was more valid. peal? He thought they would find that every large concession
He was of opinion that if this grant were passed to the College had paved the way for fresh demands. Another Mem.
of Maynooth the principle would not stop there. They would ber had risen, the representative for Nottinghamshire
then be required to support the priesthood, and to build (Lord Lincoln). 'The Noble Lord said that inasmuch
churches, and the result would be that a regularly endowed as Government had thought fit to hold up the cup of bliss to
State Church would be established in Ireland. That this the lips of the Roman Catholics, that House would not be
grant was opposed to the wishes of the people of England was justified in dashing it to the ground. Were they to be told
sufficiently evidenced by the number of petitions which had that they had no right to judge of what was brought before the
poured in from all parts of the country against it. He did House by the Frime Minister? Why, in that case, the
not deny that a portion of this opposition might arise from sooner they went home to their wives and firesides the better.
the old feeling which regarded with disapprobation all conces- —(Laughter.) The Prime Minister, in that case, would be a
sions to Ireland. A great deal of doubt existed as to the real despot, and they would be his slaves.—( Hear, hear.) Their
sentiments of the leader of the Irish people on this question. occupation would be gone.—( Laughter. ) He did not
The Honourable and Learned Member for the county see the Right Honourable Baronet in his place, and
of Cork had professed so many different principles he had a great objection to speak of any man behind his back,
on this subject that they might well doubt whether but he had said in that House before that he did not care ache-
he were a voluntary agent or not. He could not conceive how ther the Right Hon. Baronet or the Noble Lord governed the
the Catholic clergy would accept of this grant to the College of country. It was a toss-up between them.—(Laughter. ) But
Maynooth, and refuse, on a future occasion, to accept of an now his opinion was entirely changed. This measure brought
endowment for themselves. He could not see how the adop- forward by the Right. Hon. Baronet, after he had climbed into
tion of one should not carry them forward to the other. But power by the avowal of certain principles, looked as if, without
there was another matter which deserved consideration in the any reason, he turned round upon his friends and sought pro-
language which had been held by the Hon. Member for Cork tection from his enemies.—(Hear, hear.) If a man deceived
in the Repeal Association, and by some in that House—he him (Mr. Muntz) once, he believed he would de-
meant the argument of restitution. What did that mean? ceive him always, no matter were he the Prime
Why, nothing short of the establishment of the Catholic Church Minister or the lowest person in the country, and
on the ruins of the Protestant Church.—( Hear, hear.) Tithes he would never have confidence in that man again.
were, originally, the property of the Catholic Church, and, if The Hon. Member for Canterbury stated that by giving a good
the argument were enforced, they should be restored to that education to the priests they would lose their influence over
Church. No man was more averse to an Established Church the people, and that by making the priests above the people
in Ireland than he was, whatever that Church might be, but would render them useless. It was said also by a Noble Lord
he never wnuld consent to endow one Church at the expense that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
of another. He thought the Established Church a monstrous was the best hand at dressing up a case in that House ;be
grievance, and had always consistently opposed it. He was might have gone further and stated that he was better able to
in favour of the appropriation of the revenues of the Church bait a trap than any other Gentleman in the House.—(Laughter.)
to national purposes. The Hon. Member for Dundalk said a When he came forward with the property-tax he caught all the
great deal of Church property was the gift of private in- Gentlemen at his side of the House, and they complimented
dividuals. He (Mr. Crawford) had no objection that Church him on the measure which he brought forward. And what did
property should be disposed of as the testators wished. He he do now ? He consented to conciliate the people of
could not help feeling that there had been a breach of faith on Ireland with a grant to their clergy, and he baited his trap
the part of the Catholics in supporting this measure—a breach with education, and he caught all the gentlemen on the Oppo-
of faith towards those who supported the voluntary principle. sition side of the House. Several gentlemen told him that,
He felt that the Catholics, in supporting the measure, though they ought to vote against the measure from principle,
were acting inconsistently with their former declarations. and ridicule it on account of the men by whom it was intro-
Ile heard of nu intention to extend civil liberty to Ireland. duced, yet they could not oppose it as it was for educational
He did not hear of any intention to extend the franchise—he purposes. That was the bait, and it was well placed, for lie
did not hear of any intention to make an addition to the num- caught them altogether.—( Laughter. ) The great question
ber of Irish Members. The landlords' claims had been ail- was, if the Irish wanted priests, why did they not pay for
mitted. He had not heard of any intention to grant such an their education? But that was easily answered by them.
extension of civil rights as would tend to check agitation. The They said that there was the absenteeism, which
people had been deceived by the agitation for Catholic eman- drained the country, and they ought not on that account to pay
cipation. They would be deceived by the agitation for re- their priests. If their gentry gu to other countries to spend
peal. It would end in the endowment of the Catholic six millions of money per annum, they could not blame them
Church without any extension of civil liberties to the people. (the English) for not paying their priests for them.—( Hear,
They would be deceived by the repeal agitation as they had hear.) What was the real position of Ireland
? Let them
been deceived by the emancipation agitation. They had sub- look back to the year when the income-tax was introduced.
scribed large sums of money to support that agitation, but the There was at that time no income-tax laid upon Ireland. A
people would find out, after all the sacrifices they had spirit duty and a stamp duty were introduced in its stead, the
made, that they would be deceived. He wondered how former of which was afterwards taken off .
rt of tin
priests
were
the Irish Members could hold forth this measure as told that they ought to pay for the suppoebe-
a boon to his countrymen. Not a single petition had been enure the Irish were in need. Could not they subscribe 10,0001.
presented from the people of Ireland in favour of this measure. a year for the repeal? Could not they subscribe 10,000/. to
The agitation would not cease in consequence of this measure. anything they liked for the sake of agitation ?—(
Hear, bear.)
It had been said that when Catholic Emancipation was granteA But they could not subscribe for the education of the priests.
all agitation would cease. Had such been the case ? lie con- They had ample means for these purposes, and if they wanted
sidered the measure was totally Conservative, anti having only the priests educated for the sake of educating their poor, let
for its object to sustain the Established Church in Ireland. lie them pay for it. When they educated the Roman Catholic
maintained that no benefit could he obtained for Ireland ; this priests, what then were they to do with them ? They must
very course of policy would not be assented to by the English pay them ; and when they paid them, how could they pay every
people. If the grant was persisted in, contrary to the feelings other dissenting priest in this country, even down to the merest
of the people of this country, it would be prejudicial to the in- "ranter." He had heard in the course bate debate a bun.
terests of Ireland in the minds of the people of England. As dred remarks against the measure, not
a friend to the country, and having a wish for the principle of heard one sing Hear
le remark in its favour.—( , hear.)
civil and religious liberty, he would give a vote in opposition to It was alleged by Hon. Members that there was a great
this measure. feeling existing in this country against this measure ; and they
Lord C. HAMILTON said that he would take this oppor- were quite right, for such a feeling was generally entertained.
tunity of stating his opinion on this question, and the grounds There was a great dislike exhibited in England against the
on which he would found his vote on the measure. Ile must Roman Catholic priests for they made converts wherever they
say that, of all the arguments he heard in Ireland in favour of could. He was not a bigot—he wished to tolerate every reli-
the repeal of the union, be never heard one stronger than gion, but he was not an advocate for paying for another reli-
that the Irish Roman Catholics were not placed in the same gion when he thought his own the best. He would allow them
position as the Dis enters in this country. Ile never thought to enjoy their own opinions, but he did not like to pay for the
that any other argument justified the repeal. They gave religion of other people out of the Consolidated Fund. He did
thirty-five thousand pounds as an endowment to 600,00(1 Dis • not understand how gentlemen on his side of the House, who
centers, and they were refusing an endowment of twenty- formerly voted against religion being paid for out of the
six thousand pounds to 6,000,000 of Roman Catholics in Ire• Consolidated Fund, could now vote for it.—(Hear.)
land. The Hon. Gentleman bai made use of another argue it was because they were caught in the trap laid
meet which did not appear to him ( Lord C. Hamilton) to be by the Right Hon. Baronet which had education for its bait.
very felicitoue. He had said that this measure would be the He would conclude his remarks by repeating what he had al-
cause of creatingpolitical agitation. Now, he (Lord C. Ilamil- ready said, and which he was sorry the Right Hon. Baronet
ton) was of opinion that it was the want of such measures that was not present to hear, that he was a very great friend
had caused agitation in Ireland.—( Hear.) If this Bill had to principle and steadiness, and therefore he war bound on all
been forced from the Government by fear and intimidation, or occasions reasonably to support them ; and if the Government
if it had come in an unwilling spirit from a reluctant Govern- did not act with principle they should go on continually ehang-
ment, he did think they would net be justified in granting it. ing them until they got a Government which would satisfy
But what was the fact? The Government had come forward the country.
spontaneously and offered the boon with a good grace, and, Mr. NEVILLE said, that protracted as this debate had
therefore, it would be received in Ireland as a boon.— been, he was anxious not to let it come to a close without
( Cries. of " Hear, hear.") He had heard some craving the indulgence of the House for a few moments. He
Honourable Members speak as prophets, but he contended could not shut his eyes to the petitions which were nightly
that they had already been put out of court as prophets, fair poured upon that table from nearly every constituency in the
this proposition had not resulted in the disastrous consequences kingdom ; but as they were an argument one way, so was the
in Ireland that they had prognosticated.—( blear, hear.) He absence of petitions from the only two solely Protestant,
felt justified in asserting that the measure had met with no op- solely Church of England, and
solely educated constituencies
position from the Protestants compared with that offered to it —viz., the two universities—an argument in the opposite three-
by the Dissenters of both countries, for the latter had been in • lion. Whenever the Church was in danger, Oxford and Cam-
etigated to do so by jealous and disaffected feelings.—(Hear.) bridge were foremost to petition, and he could not but think
He had often used the term " excited" in speaking of this that had it been so now they would not have remained in the
measure, and he should confess he felt that no petition had back ground, and he thought it was speaking but tire opinions
iidiunthtahte
ethoneficioierniticuect
oftfiltoistee
been presented here that was not the result of excited feeling, of a majority of the Right Honourable Chancellor of the Ea-
t,' not e lost
eoueituniorisieiyoefmtlaiiisiadesactoernhevehrnyd
ell'clieddiantegiumaguse.—mtitieua're. cheifiesror sorf.Te.'n'ile-ma7n
ofirtninatthe
hear.) He thought many of the statements, fervid anti by whom he was so deservedly bone—, eee „_
.toe.oe shoe —ease of the ieereesea clangor., to the had visited Maynooth, and in bearing testimony to the
Protestant Church, arising from this increased grant, were courtesy he received at the hands of the authorities, he could
wholly without foundation. It was stated that a liberality like not but acknowledge the truth of every description ho had
this was dangerous, but he would ask the Hon. Members heard of it, except that of the Right Hon. Member for Perth
who used that argument whether the remission of (Mr. F. Maule) and his friend Mr. Grant.—( A laugh.)
the penal code, and of other laws peculiarly oppressive to Ire- Ile viewed with feelings of pity those dilapidated walls, that
land, had not softened the asperities which the people of that scanty library, and the care and pride with which the few
country cherished towards England, and swept away in a great works of value contained in it were regarded ; but those
degree the prejudices which had kept them asunder, ?—( Hear, feelings were changed into remorse and shame, when he heard
hear.) And would they say that this measure would not be that he was a member of a Legisluture which so miserably
followed by a like happy result ? He thought that the course endowed a Government educational institution, that they were
which had been pursued with respect to the Roman Catholics, forced to send away the pupils a portion of the year solely
in times past, was more calculated to disseminate their princi- from being unable to provide them with the necessaries of life.
pies than any other which could have been adopted • and as —('Hear, hear.) Everything about it was meagre. One,
those mistaken efforts to put down the Roman Catholic and only one, work of art he remembered to have seen—
religion had totally failed, as they had only strengthened the viz., a marble bust of George 111., beneath which were these
hatred which unfortunately they had always cherished towards words :
the professors of the other faith, he (Lord C. Hamilton)
thought that now they should try whether a greater degree of
cordiality and sympathy would not induce them to lay aside
the prejudices they had so long retained. Hon. Members,
perhaps, would recollect the old fable of the man
and his cloak, and how the more the storm did beat, the
closer did he wrap his cloak around him, until, the tempest
over, he was induced, by the genial rays of the sun, to loose
its folds by degrees, and at last to throw it aside altogether.—
( Cheers.) They had been as the storm to Ireland, and they
had been unsuccessful. Now let them try the sunshine.—
(Cheers.) It was notorious that the state of Maynooth was
not such as was contemplated by its founders, and they would
be only continuing the evil by perpetuating the present grant,
and the preseot system. For his own part, if he were asked to decide
on that night whether the present system should be continued,
or whether it should be at once dissolved, he was afraid that he
should support the latter proposition. He thought that an
unnecessary degree of alarm had been exhibited by several
Hon. Members with regard to the effect of educating the Irish
priests. Surely, if those Hon. Members were assured that
Protestantism was based upon truth, arid he (Lord C. Hamil-
ton) for one was fully convinced of it, they shoul I rather rejoice
in the spread of education, because they were all aware that dark-
ness and superstition and ignorance were co-existent as certainly
as were light and truth. This was not only, in his opinion, an
equitable grant, but it was enhanced by the mariner and the
spirit in which it was offered by the Government. It had been
offered in a manner calculated not to wound, in the slightest
degree, the feelings of the most sensitive; and he was sure that
the Irish people would observe that all personal or party
motives had been merged in an anxious desire to give them
some measure of justice. They would observe the inconve-
nience, and he might say the odium to which the Ministry had
subjected themselves in bringing forward this measure, and he
trusted the recollection of it would sink deeply into their
hearts, and be remembered with lively gratitude. The
debate, he was glad to see, had been distinguished by the
absence of all political topics which might tend to resuscitate
bitter or angry feelings, and with the view of doing away in
a greater degree with the prejudices which now existed against
this Clitholic seminary, he might perhaps be permitted to sug-
gest that the new institution, for he could call it no other,
should be removed as far as possible from its present locality
of Maynooth. They knew from the account given by the
Right Hon. Baronet of the present state of tire building, that
the public would gain nothing by the attempt to repair it, and
he conceived that as they should be obliged to rebuild it, it
would be wiser to remove its site and change the name which
at present was a very rallying point for the exhibition
of political animosity.—( Loud cheers.) He trusted
that thus regenerated its new name would be the harbinger of
a better state of things for Ireland; while the old name, with
its associations, should be forgotten—(Cheers)--and in the
meantime ;he would pray of those Hon. Members who had
foreboded the most direful consequences from the passing of
this measure, to suspend their judgments, and to give the pro-
position time to produce its fruits, and he did hope that the re-
sult would be a greater degree of peace, and comfort, and edu-
cation in Ireland, arid an extended confidence in the justice of
the English nation.—( Cheers. )
Mr. MUNTZ rose and said that they saw strange things—
(Laughter)—and they heard strange things--(Continued
laughter)—but nothing that he ever saw or heard, however
strange, was to him so very strange, as the change that had
taken place in the speeches and apinions of Noble Lords and
Hon. Members.—(Laughter.) Their memories were clearly
affected.—( Continued laughter.) He recollected that at the
first, when he had the honour of sitting in that House, every
Catholic question was a battle-field for presonality and party.
( Hear, hear.) He recollected, and they might recollect, that
the vote of want of confidence in the Ministry was upon a
Catholic question.—(hear hear.) They might recollect that
the House decided that it had no confidence in a Government
which yielded concessions to the Irish Catholics.—(Hear,
bear.) They might recollect, also, that these arguments fre-
quently encljd in personal disputes; and if he remembered
aright, once in a duel. He would yield to no man
in that House or in the country, in support of toleration to all
classes and sects of religion • but that was one of the principal
reasons why be was opposed this measure. He thought this
a paltry and pitiful measure which Government ought to be
heartily ashamed of. If the grant were truly for the purposes
of education, as stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, be (Mr.
Muntz) would allow him to ask a grant as large and as hand.
some as he liked; but let him not tell him that this grant was
for the purposes of education. Education of whom ? Of a
few Catholic priests, who would, in their turn, give edu-
cation to the people ? Was it a principle, he
would ask, of the Catholic priesthood to communicate
the education they themselves received to those beneath them ?
The only education they gave was an exposition of the Sacred
Scriptures according to their own plans and principles. What
more ? Did they allow them to think for themselves ?
( Hear.) He was most anxious that every man should be
allowed the free
exercise of his religion, but he did not
think it fair, that h
for it.—(Hear.) Lhe (Mr. Muntz) should be asked to pay
(Hear, hear.) He et every man pay for his own religion.—
his.—(Cheers.)
He had
Mentz) asked no man to pay for
been told that he was a bigot.—
(Laughter.) He a bigot I—(Great laughter.) He had
suffered too much both
in person and pocket to be a bigot.

" Georgio Tertio,
Petri Patrice,
Fundatori suo,
Collegium Manutianum."
Upon this inscription he would not comment, but Hon. Mem-
bers, he thought, would not expect to find such an one in a
throwr o i nurseryu
t
en-
tertained by the Government when in Opposition. He would
offr
om the sedition.
other % c a that ) Taunts had been
H , he ar
measure was not .
this
not retaliate or find fault with those who, when in power,
might have brought forward a measure of which they highly
approved. The Noble Lord knew he could not carry it ; he
knew that such torrents of petitions as were now poured into
the House, backed by the opposition of those Conservatives
who were now tacitly opposed to it, if not by the scruples of
those whom confidence in the Right Hon. Baronet (which the
Noble Lord did not possess) had overcome, would have pre-
vented this Bill reaching a second reading.—(Hear hear. )
Besides, there would have been the opposing vote and speech of
one member of the Government—the Right Hon. Member for
Perth (Mr. F. 11laule).—( Hear. ) He hailed this as a mea-
sure of justice as well as of policy, and would never believe that
the principles of the Christian religion or of the Protestant
faith were opposed to the education of the Christian instruc-
tors of so vast a portion of our fellow-subjects.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BELLEW said that he would not give his vote In
favour of this measure, as he agreed with other Ho-
nourable Gentlemen in thinking that it was introduced
in order to predispose the minds of the people of Ireland to
other measures, and that it would tend to do away with great
prejudices which had been encouraged in this ceuntry. The
people of Ireland were now suffering under the payment of
the Established Church, he thought that it displayed great
sense on their parts to exhibit such readiness to receive this
grant. It had been said that it was hard giving money to a
Catholic College when there was no endowment to the Pro.
testant Church for education. He could not conceive the
weight of that argument. What was the difference whether
money was given for education, or education was given
whereby those who received it would afterwards gain
a livelihood? Take Trinity ;College, for instance. A
Catholic could have no advantages in that College. There
were seventy scholarships, twenty-two fellowships, and 40,0001.
exclusively devoted to the objects of that College, which was
exclusively Protestant. There were 150,0001. a year endow-
ments to Diocesan schools and to Charles the Second's schools.
It was said that there would be no control exercised by the
Government over the College. But it was no matter what the
control might be, the students would receive a Roman Catholic
education nevertheless.—( Cheers.) In other countries there
was a regular arrangement between the Catholic Church and
the State. But this was not admitted to be an endowment—it
was only a grant to a College—it was rot for a whole clergy,
so that there was no attempt to incorporate them with the
State. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the various
meetings which were held in this country against the grant,
and thought that the language made use of at them
and by several Hon. Members in the House was sufficient to
rouse the indignation of the Irish people. The Hon. Member
for Newcastle, who was remarkable for the strong description
of his language, stated that the priests had no ties to prevent
them from being rebellious; but he forgot that they
had the ties of sickness and sorrow, and that
they had duties to perform whirls those who had
wives and families would be expected to discharge.— ( Hear.)
He could not sit down without thanking those Protestant
Members who had, in direct defiance of the opinion of their
constituencies, supported this measure. No doubt it would lay
tlieui open to the severe censure of their constituents, but they
would have the consolation of knowing that the course, the
liberal and wise course they had pursued on that occasion was
calculated to lead to the existence of better feelings between
the inhabitants of the two countries.
Captain TAYLOR remarked that, in the course of the de-
bate, it had been said that the opposition to this insasure out of
doors was confined to the Dissenters, but he differed from this
opinion. He knew that the Protestants of both countries
looked upon this measure with anything but indifference. They
thought the measure was quite unnecessary, and complained
that the leaders of their party had basely betrayed them. The
predecessors of the present Government would never have
dared to introduce such a measure, and as he considered it was
fraught with danger to the Protestant interests of the nation,
he felt it to be his bounden duty to oppose it.
Sir FREDERICK TRENCH declared his intention to
give the measure his most unanimous support, notwithstanding
he had presented several petitions from his own constituency
against it. He could not, however, conceal from himself that
they totally misunderstood the question, and when they came
to read the discussions on the subject, or more minutely to
look into the question, he was satisfied they would see the
expediency of the measure. In Ireland there were upwards of
70,000 Roman Catholics, who existed in a state of ignorance
and bigotry that to him was truly alarming. Their priests
had daily intercourse with them, and it must be evident that,
if that priesthood were better educated than they now are, its
benefits would be extended to their flock.
Mr. COBDEN, who at first spoke in such a low tone of voice
as to be quite inaudible in the gallery, said it would appear that
great apprehension existed in the public mind that the House
was going to endow the Roman Catholics of Ireland, for three-
fourths of the petitions which had been presented to that House

went upcin the suprosition that they were going to, lass a mea-
titre to endow ti.e omeniesthood. Now since the
11!‘.iiiber for Birndngtin, who dimplayed less of his
wanted sagacity on that occasion, oval ..!own, he had thought
it to be his duty to go and prase the Bill, and se, what it was
•he• eteie going to He fm:nd by the preamble of that Bill
!hat 1,,y were goon-, to ~mend tea :1e which were passed in
the Parliiwent o: Ire Loll, providing mesas for the education
of persons 1 refessing the Roman Catholic religion. He
looked over this Bill to see if he could find anything which
could in the smallest degree lead to the impression that they
were going to endow the Roman Catholic religion, and he
could find nothing of the sort. Now if any Hon. Gentle-
wan who was in the secrets of the Government, and who
might he better informed than himself on the measure, and
who thus had an advantage over him, they might put
a different construction upon the measure.—(Hear, hear. )
It was perfectly competent for any Honourable Gen-
tleman to put what construction he pleased upon it, but
he confessed it did not appear to him that the coesequences of
this Bill would be the endowment of the Roman Catholics. of
Ireland. But he thought it was consistent, as tar as he was
concerned, to vote for the measure, because, in his opinion, it
was simply andpurely an educational grant. If the Right
Hon. Baronet who was at the head of the Government would
follow the example of the Hon. Member fur London, and were
to express a desire for his consent to endow the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland, even if both parties in that House were to
unite re iib him, he ventured to say the country would
never suffer him to carry such a measure, nor could
they hope in their day to endow the Roman Catholic clergy
of Ireland out of the consolidated fund? The excitement
which existed in the country in consequence of the misappre-
hension which prevailed upon what they were then about to
do, roast have convinced the House that he was right in what
he was saying. The grant was simply for educational p
poses, and involved no principle.—(Cries of " No, no.")
The Honourable Member for Oxford cheered, and he
presumed ironically, at his assertion that there was
no principle involved in the question, but would the Right
Hon. Gentleman permit him to ask if the Government were
to be thrown upon the question, and her Majesty sent for the
Right Hon. Gentleman to form another Government, would
not his first measure be to propose a vote of 9,000/. to the
College of Al aynooth ?—( Cheers.) If he was right, then what
was it but a question of 17,000/. ? And how would they pre-
sent themselves to the eyes of Europe, who had witnessed the
excitement, if the grant were negatived? Why, it was a per-
secution that was never heard of in the annals of religious his-
tory. Hon. Members were not contending that there should
be no Maynooth. No. Hon Members said there should
be education at Maynooth ; but it should be a defective
education. No, they did not contend that there should be
no College, but that the College should be like a barrack and
not a public sehool.—(Cheers. ) He did net see that there
was the least necessity for going into discussion as to the merits
of the education provided at Maynooth, because no one proposed
to put an end to it. He could see no objection to vote a sum of
money for giving 7.000,000 persons proper religious education.
They had now in Ireland a system of national education, for
which they voted from 70,000/. to 90,000/. a year, to instruct
the children of both Catholics and Protestants, yet they would
not give a good education to those men who were to be the
pastors and religious instructors of those children when they
advanced in years. He had made some inquiries, and
he found the means provided at Maynooth were any
thing but sufficient for giving the students a liberal educa-
tion. Now, surely, if they gave these priests some instruc-
tion in chemistry and natural philosophy it would make them
more acceptable pastors to the farmers and farm-labourers of
Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Then he could sec no possible
objection to the grant, although tome Honourable Mem-
bers complained of the system of separating the
education of the clergy front that of the laity.
Why this system was not confined to the Roman Catholics
for he believed it was the custom of the Protestant Dissenters
of this country to educate their young men intended for the
ministry apart from the laity, and for his part he could see no
objection whatever to such an arrangement. Again, it was
objected that this grant was for a peculiar religion of one sect,
and he begged to remind those who opposed it on that ground,
that they voted last year 55,000/., which by the report of the
Privy Council went to the national schools of England.
Now, a clergyman stands at the head of these na-
tional schools wilt a catechism in his hand, and no
one was allowed to enter the schools who did not learn the
catechism. That 55,000/. came from the consolidated fund ;
and they made large grants to the Universities, from which
the Roman Catholics derived no benefit, and yet they were con-
tending that it was wrong in principle to make these grants. It
was too bad to apply this principle to their own case, arid refuse
it to the Rotnan Catholics of Ireland. He did riot think
that was the place for discussing the theological part
of the question ; and he would here remark, that if they had
more logical and less theological questions discuesed in that
House, the interests of the nation would be better attended to.
—( Laughter.) But that was the last place for discussing theo-
logical subjects; and a worse body of men could hardly set
themselves up to be a synod for settling theological matters.
He had received many adverse communications from the
country upon this subject, but he had no right to complain of
this ; but still he must support the measure, because he be-
lieved it would not only be acceptable to, but greatly benefit
the Irish people; Indeed he was happy to have an opportunity in
that House to give a vote without violating his principles which
would be acceptable to the Irish people. His first act as a
public man was to publish the evils under which Ireland
had been suffering ; and he could not on that occasion re-
rain from giving a conscientious vote in favour of the measure,
notwithstanding it would be in direct opposition to the re-
monstrances of those for whom he entertained a high respect,
and with whom he had long acted. But he should have the sa-
tisfaction of knowing, that he had given a salutary vote in
favour of a measure which he believed was the first step towards
healing the festering wounds of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FERRAND agreed that the question could not be settled
in that House. It would have to be submitted fo the country.
They had opposed the great principles which had placed the
Ministers in power, and he would read some of the pledges
which had been given by the Ministerial adherents at the
last general election, and show them in connexion with their
conduct before the House and the country. Was there any
Member of that House who had forgotten that the cry raised
at the last general election was—" The Church in danger."
But, since then, hots had they departed from the principles
which they professed before their constituents, and how had
they violated the promises they had given to those
who had sent thetn to Parliament? Ile only wished
that the Right Hon. Baronet would again appeal to the coun-
try, and give the people an opportunity of expressing their
judgment; but on the present occasion he would judge the
Ministers out of their own mouths. The small party called
the Conservative party—for now it was a small party—telt
that he had misled and betrayed them. Ile would. as naor.,
the people of England to call upon
their Sovereign to dissolve that House, in order that
they might have an opportunity of expressing their
sentiments on the proceedings of those whom they
had sent to represent them there. At the last
general election, her Majesty's Ministers had slated that
they had opposed those who preceded them in the Irish Edu-
cation Bill, because they believed that the effect of its policy
would be to place the whole of the education in the hands of
the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland. A Gentleman, a
Member of the other House of Parliament, on the hustings at
Guildford had made this public declaration, that the Members
of her Majesty's Government had entered on office solely in
consequence of their adherence to those principles which they
now seemed to repudiate.—( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen might cry
" hear, hear," but what would be the position they would hold
in that House and the country when he had exposed them.
That Hon. Gentleman had declared that their possession of
power would have this good effect—that by the exclusion of the
Whigs from power they would at last have the opportunity
of preventing mischief, if they had not the ability to do much
good. They had resisted, and successfully resisted, the wilder
schemes of Radical demolition—he had declared, that if the
Church had to fear the hostility of violence and insidious foes,
he would ask her Majesty's Government where those insidious
foes now where, and he would tell them that it was upon the
Treasury bench, and in the list of her Majesty's Ministers,
that they would find the insidious foes of the Church of Eng-
land. They had been told that when the Tithe Commutation
Bill was passed, that it was to promote, through every portion
of the country, harmony and peace in Ireland. What
was said by Lord Lyndhurst ? That it was calcu-
lated to inflict grievous injury, and he quoted the
words of Lord Melbourne, that it was calculated to give a
heavy blow and great discouragement to Protestantism in that
country. He had praised Dr. Lefroy as an active and zealous
sentinel, but he would ask where was now the honest and
zealous sentinel? What had been the expressions of Lord
Stanley on the hustings at Lancaster? That the cup of their
iniquity was full. The Attorney-General for Ireland, during
the contest at the last election for the University of leublio,
had declared that the Protestant Church was the grand safe-
guard of the State in Ireland. There the Right Hon.
Gentleman sat, and now, in voting for this Bill,
whether he still thought the same of the value of the
Protestant Church, and whether her Majesty's Ministers had
now redeemed the pledges which they had given at the last
election. But there was one paper which, at that election, had
been placarded on the walls of every borough and county
town in England. It was called the Tamworth manifesto;
and he should like to call the attention of the House, and espe-
cially of the First Lord of the Treasury, for that paper showed
that the Right Hon. Baronet had himself adopted the whole of
those measures in office which when out of office he opposed.
Whatever might Ise the opinions of the Whigs, there was one
thing for which he respected them ; when they professed an
opinion they held to it ; and he firmly believed that the Whigs
were upright, honourable, and honest men as compared with
the present Minister. When the First Lord of the Treasury had
addressed his constituents he had endeavoured to support the
principles of Conservatism, and had stated that he feared the
progress of those principles which had originated in the French
Revolution of 1830; but he would tell the Right Honour-
able Gentleman that a great revolution had been effected
by himself, after 1829, in the passing of the Catholic
Emancipation Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had feared the pre-
valence of those principles, but he (Mr. Ferrand) would
tell the Right Honourable Baronet that greater changes had
been produced in this country by his measures, than any which
had been effected by the French Revolution. [he Right
Hon. Baronet had said, that when these changes had been
effected, that it was necessary to raise up a great Conserva-
tive party. That party had been raised, and on it the
Right Hon. Baronet had come come into power, but where,
he would ask, was their great Conservative party now ?
They had for their great motive of action attachment to the
in,tutions in Church and State, and it was their object to
maintain those institutions. And whatever might be the
feeling of the Members of that House, he could assure them
that he, as a Protestant Member for a Protestant constitu-
ency, could tell them, that this Bill was looked upon
with alarm by all the constituencies in the north
of England. The Right Honourable Baronet had
taunted the Roman Catholic Members of that House
with having forgotten the pledges which they had given to the
Government, but he (Mr. Ferrand) would tell the Right Hon.
Baronet that the people of England would taunt him with hav-
ing brokers all his pledges of attachment to the institutions of
the country ; and he could assure him that the whole weight
and respectability of the country was fearfully agitated and
excited by the measure which he had introduced. The Right
Hon. Baronet had stated on coming into power they would
only retain it by continuing in their favour the confidence of
the people and the weight of public opinion. Where, he would
ask, was the weight of public opinion now? As in 11i29,
not one-twentieth part of the population had expressed even
Re slightest desire fur the passing of this Bill.—( Hear. )
The Right Hon. Baronet had come in with a majority of 91.
He had filched power from the Noble Lord opposite, and had
professed to walk in the direct path, and in tho light of the
British constitution ; but he would beg to say that it was in
the darkness rather than in the light that the Right Hots. Ba-
ronet desired to tread. On March 5, 1829, the Right Hon.
Baronet had stated that in bringing in the Bill for Roman
Catholic Emancipation he discarded all consideration of reli-
gious principles, and that it was a measure of State
policy—and of State policy only. That his object was to give
an equality of rights to the Roman Catholia population, and
that if he supposed that any measure would result likely to be
injurious to the Established Church, he would be the last man
in the world to propose it. He had stated as one of those in-
juries, the adoption by the Roman Catholic priesthood of the
titles of the Established Church in Ireland, yet in the Charita-
ble Bequests Act of last year, he had expressly acknowledged
the right of members of the Roman Catholic Church to the
titles of archbishops, bishops, and priests, when by the very
enactment ho had inflicted a penalty of 10/. on the assump-
tion of any one of these titles. This was the way
in which he redeemed his pledges. He would advise
him to follow the injunction which he had given the other

night to his Thm. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury, to at •
(Aloe quit the b.nehes on which he now sat, anil to cress the
House, for he charged him with groRF an.: most apos-
tacy from all ice principles which had brought him in:o
power. The people of England felt that ti--re scene traitors to
their interest. and if thoy were not to be foutiu io th.it House,

t 11,4, were at least triliOrS to the of -talc; interest—great

and de!estable r4i.urs to the Prole •taut pt nctlles.—.

hear. ) The Bib now before them was, it possible, a greater
injury to all the best interests of the country, and the people
of England felt that their cot.fidenee had heen betrayed.—
(Hear, hear.) He might cite the opinion of Lord Eldon.—
(Great laughter from the Opposition benches.) Did
Honou-able Gentlemen mean to say that the opinion
of Lord Eldon was nothieg worth? He would take leave
to tell the lion. Member for 13,sth that Lord Eldon was a

greater lawyer thin himself, and he thUtiglqt that. if authority
was to be acted on at all, the opinion of Lord Eldim was en-
titled to some weight. The Ministers at last. seemed to think
that, it was necessary, for they had not hesitated to bring the
name of the Sovereign into this debate in a way which was a

♦iolation of all usage, and he thought, therefore, to sneer at

authority was at least inconsistent with good taste, but at any
rate it should not prevent him from exposing the contemptible
apostacy, which was a direct violation of the Act of Settle-
ment, and a contravention of the oath of supremacy—a
complete destruction of the principles which had placed
the royal family on the throne.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.")
At. the last general election the Hon. Member for Lanca- '
shire mada use of a remarkable expression, when the Hon.
Member for Nottingham had the indecency to introduce
the name of the Queen, where he should not have done. The
expression was, •• The Lord defend the Queen from bad ad-
visers and from the advice of an adverse Ministry," and to
that exclamation most cordially did he say amen !—(Great
laughter.) In conclusion, he begged to say that if the Go.
vernment lould induce her Majesty to attach her signature to
that measure, she would he committing an act equivalent to a
declaration of the instability of the throne.
Here an immense number of Hon. Members stood up, but
Mr. SHEIL having caught the Speaker's eye, he said, Sir,
I think it is extremely unfortunate—it is extremely to be la-
mented that no English Minister can ever confer even a small
benefit upon Ireland, without doing mischief to himself.—
(Hear, hear.) No doubt, Sir, a great deal of excitement has
been created in this matter; but I do think that it i. a matter
of a very gratifying nature to the people of Ireland, to have ob-
served that from the commencement of this discussion the

Church of England party, which may he regarded as the safe-
guard of the religious pi (-Judie,* of this country, have prudentially
abstained from taking any part in the scene this discussion has
created ; but from the noble elevation on which it stands Las
looked down with colt serenity on this, what I may well call
sectarian affray, leaving entirely to this House the determina-
tion a'. it amongst those with whom it originated, namely, the
Dissenters.—( Loud cheers.) Those Dissenters whose cause
Irish Catholics were ever foremost to advance, and who lent
their best aid and most strenuous efforts to those same Dissen-
ters when they sought fur the ab,.lition of the Test and Cor-
poration Acts.—(Cheers.) Yet those very men have
stood apathetically by upon measures conducive to the
advancement of the interests of Irish affairs ; but upon this
occasion, they stand forward, en masse, in great array of fanati
cal insurgency, and in a must determined and un-Christian
spirit, contumaciously oppose this measure.—(Cheers.) I
am not sorry for this ; but I am more than surprised, I am
grieved to think that there also are such strenuous supporters of
the Free Church of Scotland, and in favour of whom everyßoman
Catholic Member in this house has voted. lam grieved, I say,
to find in the Free Church of Scotland such a spirit of de-
termined hostility against those who so enthusiastically advo-
cated their cause.—( Hear.) But, I sat that this is a question
in which they have no concern ; it is one in which they are
not called upon to come out upon the voluntary principle ; it
has nothing to do with the dogmas ; it contains no protest
against the Regium Donlan; and yet they stand forward in
prominent opposition, while the l'rotestant Church stands
neutral.—(Hear, hear.) Strange to say, the moment this
measure was propounded this boiler of Calvinistic wrath mei,
flawed—the moment they saw a Minister of the Crown ends ae
vouring to carry out a measure having for its object the im-
provement of the condition of the people of Ireland.—( Hear. )
In speaking upon this question upon a late occasion, I adverted
to the advantages that would be likely to accrue to Ireland from
it. I stated that it would be looked upon as an earnest of she
benevolent intentions of the Government of the country,
and that the minds of young Irishmen, serving their noviciate
to the Catholic Church, would find in this measure the seeds of
incalculable future good, and that in every parish in Ireland
would be located a gentleman educated in principles, by the
better inculcation of which his example would be the means of
ensuring the hest possible results.—( Hear, hear. ) I will not
now go over those grounds again, but instead of showing the
advantages which would follow the passing of this measure, I
will endeavour to exhibit the evil consequences that could
be the certain result of its rejeetion.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") If it be rejected it would lend a great
impetus to the discussion of those from Ashton-under-Lyne,
and other places.—(Laughter,) And when some Hon. Mem-
bers returned to their spiritual constituencies in the north—
(Laughter)—their Calvinistic holinesses will be hailed with
lugubrious solemnity, with the most dismal hosannahs in every
direction.—(Laughter and cheers.) But in Ireland the people
will not confine their complaints to expressions of discontent
at the conduct of the Legislature; they will return with ten-
fold vigour to their demands for a repeal of the Union with this
country. Let me ask, what will be the a esult of the rejection of this
measure in that country, which by courtesy Son call " sister"
—( Laughter)—in that country where there are seven millions
of Roman Catholics—in that country where the Roan Ca-
tholics are the great depositaries of political power—in that
country where the Roman Catholics return to Parliament two-
thirds of the Members which represent that country in this
House—in that country where the Roman Catholic religion
preponderates in its municipal corporations—in that country
where the property, landed, funded, and mercantile is preserved
by the Roman Catholics--in that country in which intelligence,
public spirit, and determination, and all the other attributes
which constitute a great nation, have been known to exist,
and in that country where the Roman Catholics have made
progress to the highest state of civilisation that is really sur-
prising. What, I say, will be the effect of the rejection of this
measure in that country, already so discontented—a discontent
so dark, so deep, and in my' mind so just.—( Hear, hear.)
Alas, I fear that the effect of such an announcement will be a
renewed demand fur the restoration of the Irish Parliament,
and the speculators upon English ruin will then perhaps be
tempted to turn their eyes upon Ireland in a mariner to call
for the most serious meditation from Lord Aberdeen.—
( Hear, hear.) There can be no doubt of the fact, that the
rejection of this measure will give the most serious impetus to
the repeal agitation. Not because the people of Ireland set
any value per se upon such a ss itling donation as 26,0001_ lint
lic,ause we thine a demonstration will be given that the Go-
vernment of the country ne longer considers it necessary to act
in compliance with the wishes of the people for the granting of
a measure which has met with the approbation of both sides of
the House.—(hear, hear.) When the union of Ireland with
England was proposed, it was opposed by some of
the ablest men in the Irish Parliament, upon the
grounds that Irishmen would have no real representation here—
that her voice would be swamped, and to the English aristocracy
the interests and government of Ireland would be transferred.
That prediction has unhappily been confirmed ; yet I must say
that, though such is the fact,much of its bitterness has been
taken away for the dignity of the despot, and has considerably
diminished the baseness of the slave.—( Hear, hear.) If the
country is not to be governed by independent men, but by
Baptists, and Methodists, and Wesleyans, and Independents,
and Moravians, I have no hesitation in saving thvt the repeal
agitation will be renewed—(" Hear hear," and cheers)—and
then, indeed, will the First Minister of the Crown have to make
the Cabinet subservient to a conventicle.—(llear, hear.)
And I tell these Dissenters that thsra will be men found in
Ireland who will be prepared to take as bold a course as that
adopted by the Hon. Member for Finsbury until their native
Legislature has been restored, for they never will submit that
the union of England with Ireland is to be maintained at the
expense of ignominy, and that, therefore, they will consider
it much better and more national to perish than submit to such
degradation..-4 Loud cheers.) I have told you of the lan-
guage that will be used by others in Ireland, not the language
that shall be used hy me.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) An Honourable Member says " Hear, hear," but
I appeal to the just sense of this country, and to the just
feeling of all whom I now see around me, whether I have
drawn an exaggerated picture ?—( Hear, hear.) I say,' then,
if you pay no regard to the condition of the people—if you
reject this measure—the result will be to give a new impetus
to repeal.—( Hear, bear.) I have spoken with ardour upon
this subject ; but if I have suffered my pulse to beat with less
temperance than I should have done, I am sure you will
pardon me, and admit that I have had just cause
of indignation, and have a stronger right to indulge in language
of this sort than an Englishman should do.—( Hear, hear.)
Will you make no allowance for our feelings when you con-
sider the language that has been used to our religion ?—( Hear,
hear.) I am sure you will, and be willing to excuse me when
you observe my blood boil with indignation at such a course.
I say again that the repeal of the union will be promoted by the
rejection of this measure. Are you prepared to adopt such a
course, when you recollect that the first Minister of the Crown
has declared in this House, that, at the hazard of civil war,
he would resist the repeal of the union, and that announce-
ment was received with acclamation by this House ?—( Hear,
hear.) Let me, then, ask lion. Members opposite whether
they do not think the grant to Maynooth, mad other analogous
measures, better than civil war ?—( Hear, hear.) I see the
Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) in his place, and I beg to
ask him what does he think of such an alternative? I know
him to be a gentleman of the greatest benevolence and high-
mindedness, and I have always given him the humble homage
of my praise. But let me ask the. Noble Lord, sloes it not
occur:to him that one night of civil war would result in mere
misery and devastation than would be committed in a hundred
years in all the factories of England ?—( Cheers.) I know the
Noble Lord will shrink with horror from such a tearful contin-
gency ; should he not then pause before he would recommend
the adoption of that fatal policy which honour and hu-
manity concur in recoiling front ? (Loud cheers. )
Sir, I say, conciliate in time the Catholic clergy of Ireland as
a great intellectual body.—( Cheers. ) There are three thou-
sand men—(Cheers)—firm, courageous, arid devoted—they
are concentrated in their episcopacy—their influence is diffused,
but it is universal. It is collected, centered, and enthroned in
each individual breast of 8,000,000 of people. It has been well
said that the influence of the Catholic priesthood of Ireland
is powerful for good.—( Hear, and cheers.) lam willing
to admit that the same power might by some
strange perversion be turned to evil. I concede to
you that the influence of the Catholic priesthood in
Ireland has carried many measures ; they have shown you
that they could be hurtful as your enemies, but, when recon-
ciled, they have always been your fastest and firmest friends.
I admit that, in 1828, it was the Roman Catholic priesthood
that carried the election of a large majority of Members
favourable to Catholic Emancipation.— ( Cheers.) We all
know that the election for Clare was carried by the same
influence—(Cheers)—and, Sir, I do not hesitate to say that
it is by the influence of the Catholic priesthood that the
Repeal Association has been sustained. The requisition
for the meeting at Clontarf was signed by twenty-five
Catholic priests.—'Loud cheers.) But let Maynooth be
put down to-morrow, a Catholic seminary would be established,
where the doctrine of passive obedience would be inculcated.
and a mose sullen resistance would grow up. Sir, I trust that
we have enough upon the records of history—enough in our
own experience—to show us that the loyalty of the Roman
Catholic priesthood is a pearl not to be thrown away.—
( Cheers.) Sir, I ask you to look to the conduct of the Irish
priesthood in Upper Canada.—( Cheers.) Every one of the
Governors, over a range of several years, concurs with his pre-
decessor in bearing testimony to the fidelity and loyalty of the
Roman Catholic priests in that country, who were of Irish
origin.—(Cheers.) And why was that? You placed them
in trust with the State—you gave them one-half of the ec-
clesiastical endowment of Canada, and you deviled a portion of
the revenue of the Protestant Church in that colony for the
education of the Roman Catholic priesthood.—( Cheers.)
Now, Sir, if you have the misfortune to go to war with a
country bordering upon your valuable colony, you would find
your account in the virtues, in the loyalty, and the gratitude of
the Irish Roman Catholic priesthood. I ask you, then, why
it is that the influence which you do not disdain to Use in
Canada refusetoexercisesvitl
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defence, than if you planted a cannon on every promontory
in the island. Sir, I regret that this measure was not
brought forward at an earlier period. I hope that this mea-