The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-21 00:00:00

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House d
ided, when there appeared--
For the motion ..
Against it
Majority against the motion
Mr. COLQUHOUN presented a petition from a number
of delegates at present in London, representing 30 places,
120 of them Parliamentary boroughs, against the Maynooth
grant.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition; signed by 538 dele-
gates and deputies, assembled to-day at Crosby-hall, and re.
presenting the great body of the Dissenters, against the May-
nooth Bill.
Mr. Ward, Mr. Bright, Mr. Sharman Crawford, Sir G.
Grey. Mr. Muntz, Mr. Dawson, arid several other ;.lon.
Members, also presented a great number of petitions to the
same effect.
Several petitions in favour of the Bill were also presented by
Hon Members.
MAYNOOTH EILL—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Sir H. W. BARRON said that several of the petitioners who
had addressed that House had stated that all State endowments
were opposed to sound religion. But when he saw nine
out of ten opponents to the Bill supporting the endowment of
religion, considering it useful, valuable and necessary to have
the Church supported by the State, he was surprised to ob-
serve this large body taking advantage of a cry raised on a
ft tally different principle. He repeated lie was surprised that
they should condescend to take advantage of this most im-
proper cry, and coming down to the House, tell her 'Majesty's
Ministers that their measures were not in accordance with the
feelings of the country.
An HON. MEINIBER, here moved that the House be counted,
but more than sixty Members having been found present,
Sir H. W. BA RRON resumed. He had read the petitions
of the Dissenters who were adverse to the Government mea-
sure, and if their w,shes and prayers meant anything, it was not
that an endowment of Maynooth was objectionable, but
that, being obnoxious to the principle of the State en-
dowing any religion whatsoever, they entered their oppo-
sition on the broad and intelligible grounds of the inexpediency
of the State interfering with the Church. What, then, be-
came of the opposition of the Member for Oxford, and that of
the Member for Kent, who now set themselves forward as the
champions of the Church Establishment in this country. yet
whose grounds of opposition were diametrically opposite to
those of their associates ? The latter would decide equally
against the Church Establishment in England, rgainst the
Church Establishment in Ireland, and against the Church
Establishment of Scotland; and if an appeal were to be made,
it should be made on those grounds alone. Their language
had been. " We conscientiously object to the endowment of
any religious institution whatsoever," and the persons who had
stated this so emphatically were rot an isolated or particular
body, an exception to the great majority, but the !elec. ed minis-
ters of the entire dissenting body of the country. But there
were reasons, and cogent unanswerable reasons for the endow-
ment of the College of Maynooth. First, it had been sanc-
tioned by the Irish Parliament ; secondly, it had been sanc-
tioned by the English Parliament for a period of forty-five
years ; and, thirdly, the great body of the Catholics of Irelard
were keenly alive to the fact, that it was by English force, by
English violence, and by English bayonets that they had been
deprived of the endowments of their Church. Let those en-
dowments be restored and then might the present paltry
pittance be withheld, but if those endowments were
still kept, and kept for Protestant purposes, the Irish Catholics
had a right to claim from the Parliament of England an equi-
valent. If a body were deprived of an indefeasible right by
force, was it not natural that that injured body should seek re-
stitution or redress? and yet the Irish Roman Catholics had
never, be it remembered, come and asked for the grant. Yet
when acceded, he felt confident that it would be accepted
by the great body of the hierarchy and clergy of
Ireland as an honest and just concession. Accepted
in a spirit of peace, aye, even of thankfulness, and
thankfulness more than was commensurate with the amount.
If all religions were to be cast upon their own resources, as in
the case of the Dissenters, then let the Irish Catholics at least
have that property returned to them. No similar claim could be
made out on behalf of the Dissenters of England. They had
never been deprived of their rightful endowmeets, nor robbed
of their first possessions. And to think the former would be
satisfied without redress, was to suppose an impossibility. The
Irish character was not different from the English. Let them
suppose that the contemplated expedition of Napoleon upon
England had succeeded—that he had overrun, ravaged,
vanquished the country, then spoliated the Church, and
handed it over to his soldiery or citizens, how
would the English have acted then ? Oh, they would have
acted like men, and would have cried " restitution is due, and
sooner or later it must be made." Such had been the Irish
feeling, such their conduct, such their first avowal. The se-
cond objection to the measure was, however, on religious
grounds, but in a country like this, professing different
religions, and greatly divided in itself, it was hardly becoming
to raise such an intolerant and anomalous outcry. In England
they had established the religion of the majority of the people ;
in Scotland they had established the religion of the majority of
the people; in Ireland they had established the religion
of the minority of the people. Was that not an insult,
a marked, a gratuitous insult ? and was it not natural that dis-
content and acerbity, and animosity, should be the feelings of a
people so unjustly treated ? A statement had been put forth,
which he did not believe, that the majority of the English
people were opposed to the grant, but those that did resist it on
religious grounds had clamoured loudly and unworthily of
" Catholicism" and" Jesuitism." Let it be remembered that
it was the Jesuit who had first spread the doctrines of Chris-
tianity, who, daring the terrors of climate and of barbarism,
had traversed the most repulsive regions, and taught
the pure doctrines of his religion to the heathen.
And, as to Githolicism, it was the religion of the
ancestors of every Member of that House : it was
the religion of those who had fought for and obtained
that source of their liberties and their rights—Magna Charter.
Did they forget what they owed the Catholic? It was he that
had achieved the victories of Cressy, Poictiers, and Agincourt;
it was he that had founded the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge ; it was he that had created that glorious temple
whose walls approximated their own. He made these remarks
not to bring on polemical discussion, but because he had been
provoked to it, and he should have felt himself unworthy of his
seat in that House had he not protested against the language of
the opponents of the measure towards the Catholic religion gene-
rally. He considered that no Protestant in that House would
object to subscribe to all the essential doctrines of faith to which
the Catholic gave his assent. Every one of those doctrines was
maintained by some of the divines of the Established Church,
and the religious opinions that were particularly ascribed to
the Roman Catholics might be found especially insisted on in
the Book of Common Prayer. As to mere matters of form and
ceremonial, the two parties might differ; but what had these
distinctions to do with religion ? Nothing whatever, and this
opinion he was prepared to maintain in the presence of divines
belonging to both churches. It was the result of biassed opi-
nions and most unfounded prejudices, that prevented
this opinion from being universally entertained. He be-
lieved, as an honest man, that in essentials there was little
or no difference between their doctrines. It was true that if
Dissenting Ministers, and others ignorant of real facts, were
asked to give a description of the Roman Catholic religion,
they would tell you that it was a most monstrous and fright-
ful doctrine, filled with superstitious errors and every abomi .
nation ; but they had obtained their knowledge of the religion
from their nursery-maids, and had retailed it, highly exagge-
rated, to their associates as the truth. The publication of
these foolish notions had done more to shake the attachment
of the Irish people to the Government of the land than all the
contumely and persecution that had been heaped on them for
centuries past. He believed the wrong ideas entertained of
the Catholic religion constituted a most mischievous and dan-
gerous condition ; and he would implore Hon. Gentlemen to
consider whether they would array themselves or not against the
best interests and peace of the country. The proposed grant
to Maynooth was not to be considered merely as a gift of so
much money, but it ought to be taken as the expression of a
kindly feeling towards the Irish people ; and it would tend to
assure them that whatever had been done in bygone times,
the Government were now wilting to atone for the mistakes
which had been formerly committed. He would request Hon.
Members not to regard this grant in the light of a religious
discussion. From many years' anxious consideration he would
fearlessly assert, that the differences which had divided the re-
ligions of England and Ireland were of such small moment,
that, from their trivial nature, they could not much longer
exist. The House differed as to the subject of the grant to
Maynooth, but he would beseech it to be unanimous in giving
this satisfaction to the people of Ireland, so that they might
see that the large major:ty of Englishmen were disposed to act
kindly towards them. The proposed measure would give greater
satisfaction to Ireland than any scheme that had ever been
contrived. The hopes of the people had been raised to the
highest pitch of excitement in the expectation of receiving the
boon, and he trusted from the bottom of his heart that the
value of the gift might not be diminished by its being awarded
by a small and unwilling majority.
Mr. LAWSON said he considered that matters of a reli-
gious tendency ought not to be discussed in that House. Hav-
ing briefly stated this opinion he would proceed to offer a few
observations on what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet with
regard to what he considered the restoration of property to the
Roman Catholics. This refunding would meet with his most
decided opposition, and he had voted against it on the Appro-
priation Clause. He considered the Church of Ireland as an
integral portion of the Church of England—of course he al-
luded to the Protestant Church of Ireland—and the two
churches were united. On these grounds, and not from any
hostile motives, he was resolved to oppose the giving of church
property to the Catholics. He would now proceed to the con-
sideration of the Bill for the endowment of Maynooth_ Itet..a
all along voted against the bestowing of the small amount hi-
therto given to the college, but he should experience great sa-
tisfaction in supporting the measure for bestowing a
larger grant for the purposes of education. He had
on a former occasion voted in favour of the education
Bill because he considered that, under the peculiar position
in which the country stood, some improved means for preventing
the spread of ignorance and superstition was very much
needed. lie would not object to give the pi oposed grant to
Maynooth, or a larger sum, if it was necessary; but he could
not perceive how the bestowal of a greater amount could re-
solve his objections to the purposes to which it would be de-
voted. He would now refer to what the Honourable Baronet
had stated with respect to the alliance between Dissenters and
the Church. It was true he had presented petitions from
Dissenters ; and he considered that the general feeling of his
constituents was decidedly opposed to the grant. In case the
Maynooth Bill were passed tie would prefer that scholarships
should be founded, so that there might be a fair field opened for
genius, and no difference in religions belief should
prevent a young man from earning the reward
of learning. He would say, let truth prevail,
and there was nothing unfair in that view of the case. It ap-
peared to him that if superstitious doctrines were to be
preached, let there be a corresponding facility opened for ree
butting them in fair argument, and he was persuaded that no
man who was anxious for truth could object to this course. It
had been stated that the popular feeling was not against this
Bill; he would, however, believe that the feeling throughout
the country was strongly opposed to the grant, and many of
the arguments brought forward in its support were in direct
contradiction one to the other.
The Hon. H. CHOLMONDELEY considered that the
measure would be attended with some risk, but the danger to
be apprehended was not so urgent or so great, as to binder the
expectation that great good would result. For this reason he
was determined to give his support to the third reading of the
B ill. He would give his vote, not for the purpose of swelling
the majority, or supporting the Government, but from the pure
conviction that no harm would result, and that it would greatly
benefit the Irish people. He had listened attentively to the
arguments that had been urged for and against the measure,
but he had heard nothing that could tend to shake
his original opinion on the subject. He was not
one of those who were inclined to under-estimate
either the Protestant or the Catholic religion. He was by
birth and education a Protestant, but he was not, for that
reason, inclined to oppose the claims of the Catholic, and
neither did he think that by supporting the measure he would
tend in any degree to promote the Roman Catholic religion.
He considered that, by supporting this measure, he was doing
no more than an act of justice to Ireland. It was not the
speeches of the public orators—it was not the declamation of
Mr. O'Connell. He did not believe that the proceed-
ings in the Conciliation Hall had anything to do with
the measure.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not think
that any grant should be made to the claims of agitation.
The Government had not acted on this subject simply with
a view to popularity. They had acted with a view to conci-
liate the people of Ireland, and he did not think that the
grant would in any way tend to promote the interests of the
Catholic Church, otherwise than by elevating the priests of
that Church in the social scale. As the Hon. Member for

Newark had stated in one of the earliest speeches on this sub-
ject, the religious portion of the subject ought to be lef,:
altogether out of the question.—( Hear, hear.) They had
nothing whatever to do with the doctrines of that Church.
That House was in his opinion one of the very last places in
the world in which a religious discussion ought to arise. They
could not now look upon this as a religious question at all.
The question was simply this. How were Hon. Members to
look upon the state of the country and to consider the claims
of Maynooth? They had two ways, either to disregard the claims
of that college, and, defective as that establishment was, leave
it to pursue its own course, or they were, on the other hand,
to increase the grant, and endeavour to amend it. There was,
indeed. another course, and that was to discontinue the grant
altogether. With any man who would counsel the diseen-
tinuance of the grant he could not speak—hel was compelled
to join issue with him. But what would be the consequence of
the discontinuance of the grant? They would not do away
with the College—they would not, in any way, impede the
ordination of the Roman Catholic priests, but they would take
the College from under the control of Government, and de-
prive it of that wholesome regulation which this grant em-
powered the Government, if they chose it, to impose. The
question, therefore, in his mind, resolved itself into this—were
they, and how were they, to amend it ? He was quite pre-
pared to amend it in the way proposed by the Government,
and by an increased grant to the College of Maynooth to give
a better education to the students, and a higher position in
the social scale to the Roman Catholic priesthood. He believed
this to be an excellent—a conciliatory measure for Ireland. It
was some repayment for the long arrear of injustice which
she had endured from this country. Hon. Gentlemen should
recollect that this was not now an exclusively Protestant Par-
liament, and that they must legislate as if they had something
to do with the social condition of the great portion of the Irish
people. He would take the liberty to read an expression of
that late great philosopher and philanthropist, Dr. Arnold.
That great man had said, that '• let the difference between
Christian and anti. Christian be as wide as it will, but let the
difference between Christian and Christian sink into nothing."
—( Cheers.) They had also to consider the arguments against
the rejection of the measure on the other side. If
this measure were rejected, not only would the v•ite turn cut
the present Ministry, but also every Ministry that should suc-
ceed it, which was not pledged to the grant to Pilaynooth.
They would lay a palsying hand on the trade and commerce of
Ireland—they would prevent the influx of capital—they would
prevent the formation of railroads, those great means of civili-
zation and improvement. The feelings of the Irish people
would be estranged, and their confidence in the gond will of
this country would be lost. But the granting of this measure
would have a double effect, it would be a blessing to those who
gave and to those who received its benefits—the country which
bestowed, and the country on whom the gift was bestowed,
would be alike sharers in the advantages. As he had before
asserted, it would not add one Roman Catholic to the ranks of
that church. Conversions were not to be made without but
within the Church, anal he, as a Protestant opposed to the
doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, felt bound to assert
that such would be the ease. This grant would do no injury
to the Protestant religion in Ireland. All the instances they
bad heard of came from within the Church. Luther was a
Catholic when he began the reformation.—( Cheers. ) Be-
lieving, therefore, that this measure would be a healing mea-
sure, and that it was calculated to be of service to the
country, he should give his earnest support to the measure.
Mr. FFOLLIOTT said that as he had voted against the
smaller sum he had no difficulty in voting against the larger
grant. He should oppose it, because he believed that it was
opposed to the feelings of the great body of the Protestants in
Ireland, and calculated to do an injury to the Protestant
Church. He had himself, only the other evening, presented a
petition from the county of '1 yrone, which was signed, he
believed, by more persons than all the signatures represented
which were attached to the petitions in favour of the
grant. The letter which he had received for the presentation
of that petition spoke, ke believed, the sentiments of the Pro-
testant inhabitants of Ireland, and it strongly repudiated any
adoption of the principle which this grant included. It was
well known that the College of Maynsuth had been under the
management of the Jesuits. That it was so in the year 1816,
but if it could be proved to him that an alteration had been
made since that time he should not have had such an objectors
to the vote. If it could be proved to him that the students had
been led to appreciate the sacredness of an oath, he should feel
less reluctance than he now entertained against the vote, but
he could not feel this, and he should therefore support the
amendment cf the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire.

more wo-eing in conclusion, that if they severed the Irish Es-
tablishment from the State, or treat -t1 a junction between vo-
luntaries and latitudinarians, they would decrease the happi-
n greatness, and prosperity of this country.
Mr. GASKELL said that he had sat io that House since
the paising of the Reform Bill, and he thought, having sat so
14:ng, it was ineumhent on him to support that Government
which he had always so cordially assisted. Ile opposed the
policy of Lord Melbourne, because he believed that the ten-
dency of it was to increase the democratic influence in Ireland,
and that it added to the power of the repeal movement ; but
his belief was that the tendency of the measure now before
the House was precisely opp'osite. His support of the
Bill did not rest on any compact either expressed or im-
plied by the Legislature at the time of the union. He believed
that there was such a compact, and that it was binding ; but
his vote was not founded upon it, because he was ready to sup-
' port the measure in the absence of any compact on the part of
the Government. He would only trouble the House with one
word more. He would just call attention to the wards of the
Attorney-General for Ireland, ahen Mr. Burke was connected
with the Government of that country. (The lion. Member
then read a few sentences from a paper he held in his hand,
which were to the effect that the sentiments of the legal autho-
rity whom he quoted were, that, " in order to conciliate the
Irish people, the Roman Catholic religion should be cherished
and supporied—not tolerated.")—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Gaskell) had the greatest respect for those who opposed this
measure; but he was astonished how Honourable Mem-
bers who supported the measure for the smalier sum,
could oppose the present measure, and still retain their seats.
—( Hear, hear.) This was a Bill which did not contain any
proposition that slid violence to the conscience of any man, or
deprived the Established Church of any of its existing privi .
leges or immunities.—( Hear, hear.) On these grounds he
would support the Government measure, and he trusted that
the House would take advantage of that proposition, and in the
beautiful language of Mr. Canning, make that glorious moment
irrevocaoly their own.

- :29

" Non tamen irritum
" Quodcunque recto est, etliciet wipe
" Dittinget, iiirectunique reedet,
" Quod fugiens sernel flora vexit."
Mr. 13ELLEW rose, as a Catholic Member, to express his
Opinion upon the Church Question. He thought spoliation
took place at the time of the Reformation ; but he thought
that it would be equal spoliation to take the property from the
Catholics n iw. He was, however, of opinion that in a very
few years a very different opinion would be held in Ireland.
He thought this measure, therefore, was a very politic one,
and he was convinced that it would be duly appreciated
by the people of Ireland, as it wouise lead them
to believe their religion was cared for by the State.
Whatever the religion of a people might be, Mahomedan or
Jewish, so long as they behaved loyally and peaceably, they had
a right to be dealt with in the same manner as the members of
the Established Church. After all that was said of crime in
Ireland it was not so prevalent as in England, and the way to
diminish it still more, and to restore permanent tranquillity,
was by introducing measures of a humane and conciliatory na-
ture like the present, which, after all the obloquy it had en-
countered, would, he felt confident, be considered as a moat ac-
ceptable boon by the great body of the people of Ireland.
When the Hon. Member sat dawn there were loud cries of
" Divide," and for at least a minute no Hon. Member rose.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and they were about
doing se—many had actually left the genet ies, and there was a
rush of Members to the bar, when—
Sir R. INGLIS rose amid loud and renewed cries of
" Divide." When the tumult ceased, the Hon. Baronet pro-
ceeded to say that, in the course of a hundred hours' debate, not
a single point had remained undiscussed ; and having already
experienced the indulgence of the House, he would not again
have trespassed upon it, did he not think, when the cry for a
division arose, that it would be unbecoming in him, having
taken so strong a part from the beginning, to allow a Enal
decision to be come to without endeavouring, for the last time,
to recal the attention of the House to some of the views, not,
perhaps, new views, but some to which their attention had
been already directed. It was no longer contended, as in the
early part of the debate, that they were bound by compact to
maintain or increase the grant to Maynooth. After the de-
claration of his Right Hon. Friend at the commence-
ment of this discussion, wh'ch gave, as an alternative, that
they should abandon the education of the Roman Catholic
clergy altogether, it would be no longer contended that they
were bound by compact. But by whatever they were . bound
—by charity, as the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State for the Home Department said, or by fear, as the Hon.
Member for Marylebene stete,t, or by sympathy with the reli-
gious feelings of the majority of the Irish people, as other Hon.
Members had insinuated—it was quite clear that they were
under no moral obligation to educate the Catholic
priesthood. Looking upon the measure either in the light of
policy, justice, or expediency, he could not change the opinion
which he had already expressed—that it would alienate the
Protestant mind, and would totally fail to conciliate the Roman
Catholics of Ireland. He had been told that he had no right
to assume that the majority of the Protestants of the empire
were opposed to this measure, and that its opponents chiefly
comprised Dissenters, and a few members of the
Established Church. He was further assured that it
would be acceptable to the Irish Roman Catholic people, but
it did not seem as if their leaders had been conciliated by it,
though. perhaps, the Hon. Members for Dundalk, Dungarvon,
and Waterford might approve of it.—( Hear, hear.)
He repeated his belief that the great mass of
the Protestant people were directly opposed to the measure,
and that it was far from conciliating any measurable
proposition of the Catholics of Ireland, who, Instead of re-
ceiving it as a boon, would reject it as an insult.--( Hear.)
They talked of sectarian differences, but had not this Bill set
creed against creed?—(Hear.) Whose fault was that?—
( Hear, hear. ) It had raised the Protestant feeling of the
country, and they would in vain attempt to lay it. It had
kindled the flame which smouldered, and which would break
out with a degree of intensity, so that no man could calculate
upon its violence or its ravages. It had been said that there
were not such large assemblies of the clergy of the Church of
England, acting in corporate bodies, as at the time of the
Emancipation Bill, but there was hardly a parochial
petition among the numbers he had presented, which
was not signed by the rector of the parish.—(Hear.)
He had been told that they should not unite with their Dis-
senting brethren, but he never felt ashamed of the mere term
Protestant—(Hear, hear )—nor sought to escape from that dis-
tinction. The. Hon. Baronet then went on to explain the
natureof Prutestantism,which was not, he said, a mere bundle of
negatives, bet a distinct and definite idea—a creed for which
men had spilt their blood three centuries ago. lee had been
accused by Hon. Members opposite as setting himself up as an
oracle of truth—he had not done so, but what he declined was,
that he would not teach to a stranger what he believed to be
false, no mole than he would teach it to his own child, and he
hoped the same feelings existed in the breast of every
Hon surable Member in that House.—( Hear, hear.)
It would puzz'e them to make any distinction in the matter.
He had never used strong language in that House inconsist-
ent with the personal respect due to the Gentlemen who ad-
dressed the House. He, for one, would not compromise the
great truths in which he had been brought up ; and he would
say, that if the Protestant truth—if the religion of the Church
of England was in accordance with the law of God and the
Gospel, then must the other system which the measure pro.
posed to en low, be a system of error. how any man could
support a system that went to justify the propagation of error,
he could not see. He was sure it could never be reconciled
to conscience or common sense. He, at all events, would
never publicly or privately support what he could not be-
lieve. The Church of England was not one of many sects,
but the religion of the people and the State.—(Hear. )
It was, therefore, entitled to the highest privilege, and ought
not to be placed in comparison with other sects, but had a
right to demand maintenance and support from the State. He
could net conceal front himself the fact, that his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government had occupied the most
important position, during the last twenty years, of any public
man they ever had in the country. Every good or evil mea-
sure during the last quarter of a century had, either wholly or
in part, originated with him, with the exception of the Reform
Bill. There was no measure originated or brought to a con-
clusion during that time, but what, in their merits or demerits,
were due to him more than to any other man. He might refer
to the changes in the criminal law of England, the ecclesiasti-
cal law of England, Church reform, the poor-law.—( Loud
cries of " Hear, hear," and " Divide, divide.") The Whig
Government could not carry forward their measures without
the assistance of his Right Hon. Friend. The union of the
Canadas, and the formation of the Municipal Corporations,
were both indebted to his helping hand. He would warn his
Right Hon. Friend against the course he was at present pur-
Suing as fatal to the best interests of the country. No one
could be ignorant of the great degree of respect and considera-
tion which was at present bestowed on the Roman Catholic re-
ligion, whenever her Majesty's Government.—( Cries of " Ox-
ford.") He would leave the differences at Oxford to be
settled by the convocation. He had thought that when the
Catholic Emancipation Bill was carried in 1829, the require-
ments of the Roman Catholics had been conceded and
satisfied ; but it now appeared that a measure
was to be introduced which, he believed, would go
far to repeal that Act, while it would legalise the
introduction, and administer to the succession of all the
scholastic institutions founded on adverse principles. That
Bill had been three months lying on the table of the House,
and no attention had yet been drawn to its anomalous and per-
nicious character. Waif he not, therefore, justified in saying
that a line of conduct tending to discourage the Protestant,
and encourage the Roman Catholic Church, was manifested
by the
coursethelaosfle A
last
the
Administration
towards twentyio
—n h ie., en old ~.j las 112,14.nd IF thoy 1 Onit t. 1s
saute spirit
Governments
w asa apparent
a,
eot which,
thi
o
towaids its colonial institutions. In 1797, a considerable grant
of land was made in Canada for the foundation of the Protes-
tant Establishment there. A short time ago, the Government
abroad, acting under the instructions of the Home Administra-
tion, had brought in a Bill to take away that great property,
and by a majority of eleven it had been agreed to transfer it
from a Protestant University to one where no religious in-
struction whatever was to be admitted. Looking, therefore, at
the systematic discouragement given to the Church of England
and the systematic encouragement to the Church of Rome,
and regarding the present measure but as the prelude and
precursor of the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church,
he should still, in this, its last stage, offer it his uncompromising

Sir D. NORREYS said that he certainly should support
the third reading. The Ministry had done what they thought
right, and it was at least in bad taste to rake up, as the last
speaker had done, all the exuvim of noisome reports and
slanders. They had now a own the seed, and they would soon
reap the harvest. They proposed to insure this gnat on the
same security as the Civil List, the public establishments of
the country, the army and the navy, rested, arid the country
would be grateful to them for the way in which the grant had
been made. They had passed a great gulf, and he trusted they
would proceed to a happy termir ation.
Mr. GODSON slid that he should trouble the House with a
very few words in explanation of tha vote he intended to give
on the pre,ent occasion, and he did this partly because his
opinion might not coincide with many of those who had re-

turned him as their representative to Parliament. And first,
it became his duty to see what were the benefits which this

measure would confer upon the Roman Catholics
of Ireland, and in making this inquiry, he would

not regard the present as a solitary -measure, for he
trusted it was not to stand alone, the only monument of the
Government's desire to de justice to the sister country. He
hoped that the Irish people would enjoy that peace which re-
sulted from a conviction that they had been justly dealt with.
He (Mr. Godson) had had considerable experience of the
Church establishment in the colonies, for he had been inti-
mately acquainted for many years with the Island of Jamaica,
and he should, with the permission of the House, draw
Honouraole Members' attention to the sums of money which
had been sent to the different religious denominations there,
and particularly to the amounts granted for the support of the
Roman Catholics. There was an annual annunt sent every
year to the Island of Jamaica of 28,511)1. This appeared to be the
case by a return for the year 1639, which bad been laid on the
table of that House. They would find that out of 166,242/
granted altogether for ecclesiastical purposes, the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood had had no less than 14,7631. Why, then,
he asked, should the colonies have a greater measure of justice
than that accorded to Ireland? He trusted that this measure

was an indication of better things—that they would soon see
the priesthood of the Roman Catholics made independent of the
people to whom they ministered, and that as the blessings of
education were extended, a more united and friendly feeling
would spring up between that country and this. He trusted
that the period was not distant when the Parliament would he

considered a Legislature not inimical to their interests, but
willing to do them that justice which had so long been refused
to them. The minister of religion would confine himself to the
discharge of his spiritual functions and duties; and they
would be able to apply to him the beautiful language of the
poet—

" And as a bird each fond endearment tries
To tempt its new fledged offspring to the skies;
He tries cacti art, reproves each dull delay,
Allures to brighter worlds, and leads the way."
—( Hear, hear.)
Colonel RA WDON, on the part of the Roman Catholics
of Ireland, gave his hearty concurrence to the measure brought
forward by the Right Hon. Baronet. He looked on it as
opening a better prospect for the Irish people, as the beginning
of a better state of things. Why, if they did not do that
justice which was certainly due to Ireland, it would be better
to discontinue the connexion between the two portions of the
empire—it would be better, he repeated, to dissever that con-
nexion, than to maintain a disregard of the feelings of a very
large and important portion of the empire. He believed, that
notwithstanding the great number of petitions which had been
obtained against the Bill, the generous feelings
of the English people were in favour of a
measure which manifested a disposition on the
part of the English Government to render some justice to an
injured country. He knew very well all the uses that might
be made of the debate, but that would not prevent him from
persisting in his support to the Bill.
Mr. SHAW denied, in the first place, that there was any
similarity between the present proposition and the Act of
1795, which gave a temporary and conditional endow-
ment to the college of Maynooth. But the Go-
vernment were not satisfied now with the tolerance
of the Romish Church, but they were going to endow it, and
to make it permanently a part of the State. The Right Hon.
Baronet treated this as the foundation of a new system. He
should like to know what they were to understand from the
words of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern-
ment two years ago. He then adopted a different policy
and a different tone towards Ireland. Ile had now
changed his opinions, and was adopting a different
policy towards that country. The Roman Catholics inferred
from the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, that they were not to be
content with civil rights, but were to have religious equality
with the members of the Established Church. Thus strife,
excitement, and animosity, of a far more important character
than that which existed during the period when the old poli-
tical Catholic question disturbed that country, would be engen-
dered. God help the people of that country, for, indeed, they
had but little to expect from such a course of policy.—( Cheers)
Instead of men of different political feelings co-operating to-
gether for the promotion of national improvements, and for the
promotion of their common interests, it would seem as if they
were again to be driven into religious disputations and party
conflict—that days of peace and rest should never be permitted
to the pesul©
r and that dissension. discor and con-
tention of a lasting kind would be introduced. He regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
had made the announcement " that Ireland was
to be his difficulty." This was a sure way to make
it so. Such predictions had a tendency to their
own fulfilment. He sincerely believed that much of the
vexation and annoyance of the " monster meetings' and
" State prosecutions" in Ireland, had been induced by that
declaration.—(Cries of " Oh," and " No.") He would not go
into them, but he was prepared to say, for his own part, that
in the treatment of the monster meetings at first, or in the
State prosecutions after, he did not think the policy pursued
was injudicious.—( Hear, hear.) He was ready to affirm that
when the Right Hon. Baronet assumed office there was not
amongst all his political supporters a section more anxious to
co-operate with him in adopting a conciliatory policy toward
Ireland than his Irish supporters —( Hear, hear.) To the last
hour of his life he should entertain feelings of affectionate
regard towards the Right Hon. Baronet. He had always been
the friend of civil equality both to his Roman Catholic brethren
and his Protestant associates.—( Hear, hear.) lie had not
the honour of sitting in that House in 1829, but his father had
been turned out for giving a vote in favour of the Catholics.
The part he had taken with respect to the Municipal Corpo-
ration Bill had lost him the dearest and best friend of his life.
—( Hear, hear.) He was glad to see his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary for Ireland in his place, because it gave him the
opportunity of telling him that when he went to that country
he would find himself in no better a position than a clerk to
the Home-office.—( Hear, hear.) He could not but think, as
an Irishman, that the appointment of Englishmen to the office
of Lord Chancellor of Ireland was greatly to be deplored.
With regard to professional appointments, he did not wish to
bring any names before the House, but at the same time he
would say that in professional appointments they had been
rather chosen by the considerati.n of an inferior policy, than
by a regard to the character or the honour of the professions
themselves, or the wishes of the Irish people. The Right lion.
Baronet, in enumerating the appointments which were made,
spoke of a gentleman appointed to a minor office ; he (:.sr. S. )
would not mention the name; but while that gentleman re-
mained in
had o
tlia office, s p
he was still some proof of the principle
which
he 0 k
on
of.
The Protestants of Ireland were
not so easily to be frightened as the Right Hon. Baronet ima-
gined, and that he would yet find out. He would warn the
Government that if they lost the support of the Irish Protest.
ants, they would introduce a spirit of discontent, without
creating a good feeling among the people. Lord Plunket him-
self, though a friend to the Roman Catholics, had declared
that if that House attempted to touch the property of the
Protestant Church in Ireland. they would soon see the ties
of the union of Ireland at an end, and the severance of the two
countries. There was one fact upon which he begged his
Honourable Friend the First Lord of the Treasury and
the Government to reflect—namely, that the over-
whelming majority of the honourable Members of
that House, who voted for that measure, were influenced by
the idea that this measure was calculated to do injury to the
Protestant Establishment.—( Hear.) Let those Gentlemen
who professed a regard for the Established Church of England I
know that if they destroyed the Irish branch, the English branch
must follow. They may not think so now, hut they would find
it out if the experiment were tried. He would give them one

opposition.
Colonel VERNER, amidst loud tiles of " Divide," moved
an adjournment of the debate, on which the House divided,
when there appeared—
For the adjournment ..
Against it
Majority against the adjournment
On our admission to the gallery we found
Mr. WI SE on his legs, arguing i;t favour of the adjourn.
meat of the debate, in consequence of the number of Irish
Members who had not yet spoken on the Subject.
Colonel VERNER had moved the adjournment as several
opinion, the de-
Hon. Members had gone away, untie: he impression that the
any further ad-
ivtiinthshuilfrh a course would
debate should be continued for anothsj evening.
the argument was on one
After a few words from Mr. ViLtiEits STS'WAitT and Mr.
1131 E,
ad-
journment.—(Laughter.)
disarm
msrmhd
101
should
Lanopposition,RUSSELLgui
inteei
r:p.n)eocioa dat
couldaul
itt

. _
side.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he tad no desire to postpone
the adjournment, although he thought it rather hard upon
those whose duty it was to sit out the whole of
o
the debate.—(Laughter. ) Ile vas anxious to allow every
shouldveoe ft!
avl Irishen ineonte e
oit,iioe)
o Hon.mseber the further s .111, li,
wished
b,,ei r
3s:ju4lmi
~ 1
ta
ont(.l,
sasweahnk n the question, he
(Ireland)
e understood that se-
t .
The debate was then adjourned.
Bill was
rurnri,tiltri.mGe.
The other orders of the day wee then disposed of, and theROGAN, the Coroners
House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.

, May 20, 1845.
o1;10 ,IslsLeite to express the re-
el
MADAME ANNA TuILLON—we have been re-
quested to give insertion to the following letter :
rt
gre"tAlTYfeDelEf'oir thßSein'—lt
is iinconvenlewe to which I have un-
avoidably subjected you, as Veil as fboereialisiyo dgeisnaeprpoouisnity-
announce to you my
received.m et to the I pannbi i , b3rw
however,hohma
it)] ha a
tvoe
gradual recovery, and that I s6ll be quite prepared to
appear on Friday next.—l an, my, dear sir, yours, very
truly, ANNA TIIILLON."
" To Alfred Bunn, Esq., Priry-lane Theatre."

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNES DA Y EVENING, MAY 21, 1845.