The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

RAILWAY COMMITTEE.

Mr. GISBORNE moved, " That in all cases in which the
Members of a Committee on a railway Bill, or group of
Bills, shall be reduced to four, the proceedings on such Bill or
group of Bills shall be suspended until the Committee of Se-
lection shall have discharged one of the said four Members
from further attendance on the said Committee." In doing
this he should merely state to the House, that from his own
experience great inconvenience had been suffered by the diffi-
culty of coming to a decision in the Railway Committees which
were now sitting. In the Committee of which he was a mem-
ber, there were projects submitted which involved the ex-
penditure of 8,000,0001., and he thought that was too great a
sum for three eentlereent to decide upon. He certainly saw great
difficulty in adjusting the matter, but he be'ieve I that it would
be advi•table to return to the plan of the Election Committees.
By a resolution of the House, passed on the 26th March, 1836,
it was agi eed that the Chairmen of Select Committees should
have double votes, but as in a Committee of four only, this
would Rot answer the purpose, he should propose that the
Committee in such cases should be reduced to three. This
cousse, he was aware, was a very exceptionable
course ; but still it was, under the circumstances,
he thought, the best that could be devised. He
did think that the House ought to be careful how it inter-
fered with the influence of the Chairman, or with his votes.
Let the House remember that the Chairmen of Committees
were not appointed by those Committees, but by a Committee
of this House, which fact alone showed the importance the
House attached to that office. He had brought forward this
question with no other object in view than those he had stated ;
but he died not mean to say that it was the best remedy that
;multi be proposed; but he had, at least, the satisfaction of
knowing that he had called the attention of the House to it,
and with these observations he begged to propose the motion of
which he had given notice.
Lord G. SOMERSET said he was not by any means pre-
pared to contend that it was nr.t a misfortune that the business
6f the House could not he reduced to a smaller amount ; but
in the present state of the public business he was bound to
admit that this question was one of a very serious character.
He did not recollect whether the Hon. Member opposite was
present when the subject of the Chairman's vote was discussed;
but amongst those who were present. there appeared to be but
cue opinion, and that was that each Committee should be com-
posed of five Members, and also that the Chairman of each
Committee should have a double vote when a necessity should
arise for a caring vote. But what was the remedy proposed
by the Hon. Member? It was this, that when a Committee
did happen to consist of only four Members, the proceedings of
that Committee should stop until the Members had been
reduced to three. Now he ( Lord Granville Somerset) did
think that such a course would be extremely inconvenient.
. He did not propose that three should be an absolute quorum.
. Now, if they took one member off, and the Committee should
be reduced to two, that would be, in point of fact, giving the
.-deci-ion to the Chairman. In cases where property to the
amount of several millions was concerned, that
would not certainly be right or judicious. How-
ever talented and honourable the Chairman of a
Committee might be, what respect, he should like to know,
would the House be inclined to pay to the decision of one gen-
tleman ? Besides, it was asking a gentleman to take upon him-
self such a responsibility as they had no right to ask
from him. It was exposing him to all sorts of mis-
representations, and if he were chairman of a committee,
he should hesitate long before he ventured under such circum-
stances to come to a decision. The House ought not to place any
Hon. Gentleman in such a position, and he considered that it
would be most unfortunate if the House were to adopt the pro-
-position of the Hon. Gentleman.
M. L A BOUCH ERE agreed with the Noble Lord who
had just sat down in opposing the motion of his Honour-
able Friend. At the same time, he thought that the House
ought to be much obliged to his Honourable Friend for
having brought forward the subject. The case to which his
Hon. Friend had referred was not a mere speculative one.
h actually occurred ; and one of the most important of the
Railway Committees had been reduced to four Mem-
bers. Now, what was the course which, under such cir-
curnstanct s, the House ought to pursue ? He thought that
the Chairman ought to be deprived of the power of voting.
Ile did not think that a Committee should be left in such a
state as that it might be possible that a question involving mil-
lions of property should be decided by two members of the'Corn-
mittee, in opposition to the opinion of the Chairman. He
was decidedly of opinion that the best course which they
could adopt would be to allow the Chairman to have a
double vote on such occasions.
Mr. WARBURTON thought that the very best plan pro-
posed was allowing the double vote to the chairman, but he
should support the tertium quid, as the determination of the
Committee was not final. He did not think that the chair-
man should be deprived of that influence which he would pos-
sess on other recisions.
Mr. G. VERNON ventured to say, that in no other as-
sembly was there such a practice as that at present followed
in Railway Committees.
Mr. WA RD thought that whichever of the propositions were
carried, some means should be devised for rescuing the Chair-
man of a Committee from the position in which be would be
placed in those circumstances, if liable to such accidents. He
did not see why the Chairman should he prevented from ex-
pressing his opinion because two gentlemen expressed their
opinions before.
Sir G. GREY said he would propose an amendment to the
motion of his Hon. Friend—that upon all questions before
Railway Committee', or, which there was 'a difference of opi-
nion. those questions should be decided by the majority of
voices ; but where the members on the Committee were even,
that the Chairman should have two voices, or a casting voice.
Mr. F. SHAW seconded the amendment. He entirely, con-
curred with the Hon. Gentleman opposite. Under all the cir-
cumstances, he believed that the best way to meet the difficulty
of this question was to give a double vote to the Chairman.
Any other mode would only lead to irregularity and confusion.
Mr. GISBORNE conceived that tho=e Hon. Gentlemen
who bad done him the honour to attend to his few remarks
would not be surprised at his proposing to withdraw the mo-
tion which he had submitted, in deference to the strong opinion
expressed on both sides of the House.
Air. BROTHERTON thought that the analogy proposed
by the amendment was in accordance with the analogy of the
110113 P. and he should, therefore, support it.
Mr. GRANVILLE VERNON said at the quarter sessions
it was the cusrom for the Chairman to be deprived of his casting
vote when there were only three beside himself, but when the
numbers were equal the Chairman retained his casting vote,
and he thought this plan ought to be adopted in the Select
Committees.
Lord EBRINGTON said, that in the Committee on the
affalrs of New Zealand, of which he was a member, this prin-
ciple had been adopted, and Lord Stanley had so arranged
that there should always be a majority of one.
Lord H. VANE said that as the opinion had been so
strotieJv expressed on both sides of the House, he hoped the
Noble teed would accede to the request which had been so
strongly expressed.
After a few words from Lord G. SOMERSET, the
motion was agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. GREENE the Gravesend and Ro-
chester Railway Bill was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed.
Mr. LANGSTON brought up the report of the Great
Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway Bill.
Mr. FOX MAULE presented a petition from Perth in
favour of the Edinburgh and Northern Railway Bill.
The Great North of England Railway (Clarence and Hartle-
pool Junction) Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

Sir R. PEEL moved that the House at its rising should ad-
journ to Thursday the 15th of Mayi—(Cries of .‘ Friday,
Friday.") He had given notice of his intention 'to move the
adjournment of the House to Thursday, and he felt bound to
either e to his original notice.
The motion was agreed to, without discussion.
The O'CONOR DON asked for leave of absence for three
weeks for Colonel White, which was granted.
. • MR. WALLACE'S PETITION.
Mr. DUNCOM BE said he would beg leave to move that the
petition be presented from Robert Wallace, Esq., last night be
printed, with the votes.—( Laughter.)
Mr. FOX MA ULE wished to know if the Hon. Member
for Finsbury was really serious in pressing this, with a view to
found a motion upon it ?—(Langhter.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE said it really was his intention to found
a motion upon the petition, but he would promise that it
would not be quite so long as the petition itself.—( Hear, and
laughter.) His motion would be to this effect, that the
petition be referred to a Select Committee, who should inquire
and report to this House upon the prayer of the petition, which
was to the effect that the House should inquire how far it was
expedient to discontinue the Railway Department of the Board
of Trade.—( Laughter.) If the House should agree to the
printing of the petition, then be would move
the resolution he had read.—( Hear.) But when he received
the petition he wrote to Mr Wallace, to say he did not think
the Howe would do so-.(Laughter)—but Mr. Wallace did
-not agree with him—(Laughter)—and he appeared to know
• - those matters better than he did.—( Laughter.) However, as
be (Mr. Duncombe) believed that petitions of this sort were not
usually printed with the votes, he would withdraw it.
Air. Sergeant MURPHY, at the suggestion of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, withdrew the motion of which he had given
notice, and which was, that the petition of the churchwardens
of the town and parish of Wokingham, in the counties of Berks
. and Wilts, be printed.
IRISH BANKS BILL.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask the Right Hon.
• Baronet opposite when it was his intention to proceed with the
measure on Bankug in Ireland?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Bill had been brou:Jit
in and ordered to be printed. As far as the Treasury
business was concerned, he was anxious to proceed with it
as soon as possible. He could not state with accuracy the pre-
cise day, but he could say that it would be an early day. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then took the opportunity of saying
that as he was prepared to take estimates on Friday night neat
he
would, on that night, state what particular estimates it was
his intention to take.
PAROCHIAL SETTLEMENT RILL:
Al • sHARNI AN CRAWFORD asked when it was in•
ternie... JAMES
proceed with the Parochial Settlement Bill?
Sir GRAHAM re lied that it was not his inten-
tion to proceed with the Paropchial Settlement Bill, which
stood upon the orders of the day for that evening, until after
the resolution to be moved by the Noble Lord the Member for
London should have been dibposPd of. He would, therefore,
postpone the second reading of that Bill till the 9th of June.
As ne was about to trespass upon the indulgence of the
House somewhat out of order, inbringing forward an im-
portant. motion, he would, if Housethee chose, sit down, until
the public petitions had been presented.—(No,
no Go o
ACADEMICAL B
INSTITUONS
).n. )
ire-J. GRAHAM, who had resumed hie
and addressed the House assefeallo forw
an in-
stant, then rose, s—
colleifrie, that it is the Disposition of the House that should
at once proceed, I will now address you, though not at very
great length, on the subject of the motion which stands in ray
• name on the books of the House, and in so doing it is not
any intention to trespass long upon the attention of the
House. I shall not dilate either upon the importance or
• upon the difficulty of the subject which I am about to bring
under your notice, not that I am disposed to underrate either
its importance or its difficulty; neither will the House under-
rate its importance when I state that the object of the motion is
the -improvement of the social condition of the people
of Ireland ; nor will they underrate its difficulty when I
state that the means suggested by her Majesty's Government
for the improvement of that social condition, consist in diffus-
• • ing the benefits of education among the middle and higher
classes in Ireland. Sir, in dealing with this subject of edu-
cation, it cannot be concealed, :n fact experience has
demonstrated that religious differences constitute the great
.sit eulty in the way of the establishment of any general system
t- of education. In Ireland certainly this difficulty is not of the
same character as that which we have had to deal
with- in England.—( Hear, hear.) We have riot in
• that- country the same different modifications of
.religions opinions which we have in England. Still in that

country we meet with one great and striking anomaly. The
religion of the great majority of the people of that country
has been for centuries treated by the State as a hostile reli-
gion.—(Opposition cheers.) Even yet that has not been
entirely removed.—( Hear, hear.) Civil equality has been
granted to the Roman Catholics of both countries. The penal
laws have been removed, or are in process of removal,
still there are traces remaining of that disposition
on the part of the State to which I have referred,
and those traces are nowhere more perceptible or more nox-
ious than when they interfere with the education of the people.
Now, Sir, I have stated this difficulty—a difficulty which has
been clearly ascertained and admitted. It has been the subject
of repeated inquiries—by Commission—by Committees of this
House from a very early period since the passing of the Union,
and, in later times, we have not only the advantage of the pre-
cise nature of the difficulty being ascertained, but we have the far
greater advantage of considerable practical experience of the
mode by which that difficulty may be satisfactorily encoun-
tered, and certainly overcome. I will shortly, Sir, refer to
some of the inquiries which have been instituted on
this subject. In the first place I will refer you—but,
before I make reference to the report to which I shall shortly
advert, I will simply make one observation, that the various
plans for educating the people of Ireland with the aid of Go-
vernment grants which have been made, have gene-
rally failed wherever there has been an interference with
conscience in masters of religion.—( Hear.) I state th.s
broadly as my opinion. Now, Sir, I would first advert to a very
remarkable inquiry that was instituted by a Commission in 1806.
I will advert to the report of that Commission, made in the
year 1812. It is important, with reference to the subject to
which it is now my duty to call your attention,
and I hope you will pardon me if I read a few ex-
tracts from that report, because this report appears
to me to contain the germ of the sound principles
on which the difficulties of establishing a system of national
education in Ireland are to be met, and, also, it contains the
principles on which the measure which I am now about to pro-
pose to you is "generally founded. The Commission was ap-
pointed in 1806, and its report presented in 1812. I beg the
attention of the House to these remarkable words—" We
have applied our efforts to the forming of a system
which, whilst it will afford the opportunity of educa-
tion to every description of the lower classes of
the people"— in passing, I may observe, that the prin-
ciples on which we stand are not limited to the lower
classes, but are capable of extension to all classes in Ire-
land. The principle is that the proposed system
is opeu to every description of the lower classes of the people,
while at the same time, by keeping clear of all differences with
respect to the particular religious tenets of any, it will induce
the whole to receive its benefits as one united body, and
under one and the same system and, the same establishment.
They then refer more pointedly to the subject in these terms,
" It is of essential importance that there should be new schools
for the education of the lower classes in Ireland, and we ven-
ture to express our unanimous opinion, that nn such plan
however wise and unexceptionable in other respects, can be
carried into effectual execution in this country, unless it is
explicitly avowed, and clearly understood as its leading prin-
ciple, that no attempt shall be made to influence or disturb
the peculiar tenets of any sect or creed."--(Hear, hear.) I
beg to call particular attention to this report, and I repeat it
contains the only sound principle upon which education in
Ireland may be dealt with ; and I again repeat, that it is the
germ of the principle which has been lately carried into
effect in Ireland, and is the principle upon which the mea-
sure I am about to introduce is founded. I beg to call the
attention of the House to the signatures attached to this
report. It is signed by the Primate of Ireland, the Protestant
Primate of that day, the Archbishop of Cashel, the Protestant
Archbishop of Cashel, the Bishop of Killala, Dr. Ebrington,
and Mr. Leslie Forster. More unexceptionable authorities
there could not be. I now beg leave to call the attention of
the House to the Commission of 1826. The Members who
composed it were Mr. Frankland Lewis, the late Baron Fors-
ter, Mr. Blake, Mr. Glassford, and Mr. Grant. They report,
"that schools should be established for the purpose of giving
to the children of all religious persuasions such useful instruc-
tion as they might severally be capable or desirous of receiving,
without having any grounds to apprehend any interference with
their respective religious tenets." And then they give their
recommendation, " that religious instruction should be given
to Protestants and Roman Catholics, not jointly, but sepa-
rately." I will now shortly call the attention of
the House to the report of a Committee of this House in 1828.
They say that they consulted and referred to the reports of the
two commissions, from which I have already read extracts,
namely, the commissions of 1812 and 1826. I have the report
of that Committee here, and the several resolutions to which
they came ; but I w ill not detain the House by reading them
at length, but will content myself with giving a summary of
their report in the words of a letter addressed by my Noble
Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), in
1838, to the Duke of Leinster, at the period the National
Board was formed. My Noble Friend gives a summary of
their report in these terms:—" In 1828, a Committee of the
House, to which was referred the various reports of the Corn-
missioners of Education, recommended a system to be adopted
which should afford, if possible, a combined literary, and se-
parate religious education, and it should be so far adapted to
the views of the religious persuasions which prevailed in Ire-
land as to render it, in truth, a system of na-
tional education for the poorer classes of the community.
In this undertaking, much must depend cn the characters of
the individuals who compose the Board ; and, whilst the inte-
rests of religion must not be overlooked, care must be taken not
to interfere with particular and peculiar tenets of Christianity."
This matter was referred to a Committee of the House in 1830,
and that Committee reported that they had received much
evidence of importance on the subject of the education of the
poor. The Committee said they could but hope that no further
time would be lost in giving the public the benefit of the recom-
mendation of the Committees of 1812 and 1825, or the practical
recommendations of the Committees of 1828. In the following
year, 1831, the present system of national education for the
poorer classes was established in Ireland. The principle upon
which the report of this Committee was founded, and upon
which that scheme of education rests, is summed up in the re-
port which I have just received, and which I am about to lay
upon the table of this House. It is the report, in the present
year, of the Board of Commissioners of National Education in
Ireland. It is stated with brevity but with perfect accuracy
and remarkable clearness —" The principle of this Board is
and has heeu flow the beginning, that the national schools
shall be open alike to Christians of all denominations ;
and that no child shall be required to be present at any retie.
gious instruction in these schools, if the parents and guar-
dians disapproved of it ; and an opportunity is afforded to all
child. en to receive sepal ate, and, at particular periods, such
instruction as the parents and guardians provide for them." I
have now stated to the House the grounds upon which, I say,
that we are furnished with sufficient practical knowledge and
experience to legislate upon the subject. The difficulties have
been ascertained, and the mode in which they are to be met has
been enunciated by high authorities. Possessing this know-
ledge and this experience, we proeeed to the application of
the theory. While it was attempted to educate the people of
Ireland by setting aside those principles, and to connect that
education with an attempt to proselytise and teach exclusive
religious principles, we failed, although large sums of money
were annually voted. These sums, I repeat, were voted in
vain. --( Hear.) The great body of the people of Ireland did not
partake of this exclusive education. One society, that for
promoting English Protestant schools in Ireland, was established.
And in 1835, the last year in which the Parliamentary grant
was made, 21,00/. was voted, and yet, in 1831, the total num-
ber of children attending these schools was 2,500. Another
society was established which carried its operations into Ire-
land—the society for discountenancing vice. Up to the year
1825, there was an anneal vote of the House in favour of this
society, and the last year the grant was 7,5001. In 1824, the
number of schools was 226, and the number of children,
12,709, of which 7,800 were Protestants, and only 4,969 Roman
Catholics. Now, the first and only experiment which had
been made on the opposite principle, and which had been laid
before the Primate of Ireland, was in the year 1812, and that,
I again repeat, was the first and only experiment which had
been made. Let me call the attention of the Howe to the re-
markable results of that experiment. I shall not go back beyond
the year 1839, but in that year I find that there
were 1581 schools in Ireland, and the number of children was
205,000. I shall pass to the end of the year 1 84 4, when I find
that there were no less than 3,153 schools, and the number of
children attending them amounted to 395,000; thus the House
will see that on this new and improved principle nearly 400,000
children are annually educated in Ireland. Now, Sir, it has
been said by many persons that this education is almost wholly
confined to the humbler classes, and to obviate this disadvan-
tage, in the proposal I am about to make I intend to extend
that education to the higher classes, and so to remove the ob-
jection which has been so frequently urged. Owing to the
liberal policy pursued by the French Government, I have the
satisfaction of stating to the House that the National Assembly
have determined to immediately establish schools on exactly
the same principle wilt the proposed system of National Edu-
cation in Ireland. Now, Sir, I have hitherto spoken only of
Ireland ; but I should present but a very imperfect view of the
question in general, if I should confine your attention exclu-
sively to that country. For a very long period there prevailed
a very general impression that the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, as immediately connected with the Established
Church of the country, should not be opened to all classes of
her Majesty's subjects ; but that exclusive princi-
ple was not found to have the effect intended.
But in these difficulties it was thought expedient, and the Go-
vernment concurred in that, that there should be established
in this metropolis a third University, and in that University no
test is required of teacher or student.—( Hear, hear.) No
religions test either is necessary, in fact there is perfect free-
dom.— ( Hear, hear.) All the Universities were combined in
perfect harmony with the University of London, and I have
given my consent to such a University being established in
Carlow.—(Hear, hear.) Well, to pass from England, and to
advert to Scotland ; amid all the religious squabbles that have
taken place, there no test was required. Now, Sir, I have
stated to the House what appears to me the sound principle
that ought to be adopted in the matter, and I have demonstrated
what has been their value and what has been their results.
And really I do say that, considering the experience we have
had of the state of the theoretical sciences, and of society, and
of the different religious persecutions in Ireland, her Majesty's
Government should have no hesitation in recommending the
establishment and endowment of provincial colleges in Ireland
upon the principles I have statrd.—( Hear, hear.) I have now
endeavoured to sketch the outline of the plan, but 1 have said
nothing of the locality of each university, or of the system of
education to be adopted in the colleges. It would naturally
occur to the mind of any gentleman conversant with the state
of Ireland, that one of the three universities should be esta-
blished in the south of Ireland, but the particular place we have
not fixed on. Cork has been spoken of as an eligible place for
the south. —( Hear, hear.) There is an immense population
in that city, and some very important schools exist there at
present—( Hear, hear) —to which there is great facility of
access, and it is surrounded by a dense population ; and a very
strong feeling has already been expressed by the people of that
city in favour of extended education.—( Hear, hear.) On
these grounds, then, I would say, that Cork is naturally the
locality that would be selected for the university for the south.
—( Hear, hear.) Then it is not intended to overlook the
west of Ireland, and therefore either Limerick or Galway
would be selected as the most convenient locality IT the west.
—( Here hear.) And, then, with respect to the north, it is
a question whether would Belfast or Deri y lie the most con-
venient locality for the university for the north.—( Hear. )
I think that taking into account all the circumstances con•
nected with Belfast, that city atTurds the best facilities for the
northern locality.—(dear, hear. ) sow, of course, wa arc
not to be understood as pledging ourselves as to what would be
the precise amount of the expense that would attend the corn-
pet
blaceethinpnuurnolifov
:aer!irtnoyfpo%bs,iuot proposition of
no f this sort. But I should say that for
glieansudffificitetnintg
ourp,abaobuotuti
0333:m000d.. furfor
building the three. As to. the annual expenses of principal
and vice-principals, and president, and prizes, the Government
would recommend for the annual endowment' of each 6,0001.,
or, including
the 100,000/. for building,sof
for the whole expenses
would be about 118,0001._(
Cries
ess
ie"isi
a
Each college will have ten ortwel twelve professors,
,b .
b"
e)
allowed 3001. a-year each ; and especiallyo will
Belfast, there will be medical schools, tciewteitet at Cork and
greatest importance; and when I say twelve professors, I t•he
e professors in-
elude the professors in anatomy, surgery, and pharmacy.
is
our intention, considering that the endowment. It
is
°
pre
fessors made by the Crown, .to propose that the rte..
fessors in all the three colleges shall be nominated by the
Crown ; that the Crown shall have not only the power of nomie
nating, but the power of removing upon cause shown. I have
always said that chile we seek to exclude any undue inter-
ference with religious opinions, security must be taken that the
election of lecturers shall rot be thus peculiarly distin-
guished. The circumstances are such that the power of

removal on the part of the responsible adviser of the
Crown, shall depend upon the cause which shall be- shown.
I would say that it would be well that the principal
should reside within the walls of the college ; but it
is nut intended to provide accommodation for either the pro-
fessors or students ; in this respect following the:example of the
universities in Scotland. But, however, there shall be im-
mediate control and supervision exercised over the students
of the college indirectly, and no doubt perfectly satisfactory
to the parents and guardians who entrust the students to the
care of ~the college, No provision is made for the residence
of the professors or students within the walls of the col-
lege. Instruction will be given by lecturers, and there
will be daily examinations; for lectures, without con-
tinual and searching examination, may be made per-
fectly fruitless, and attended with no benefits. I have
already stated that, consistently with the principle upon which
this measure is based, there will be in none of these colleges
endowments for professors of theology ; it is not proposed to
allow anything for that purpose. Religion, however, is not
to be entirely disregarded. It is our intention to propose that
every facility be given for endowment by private benefaction of
professors of theology, subject to the visitorial power of the Crown.
I think it would be monstrous if any other course should be
taken.--( Hear.) Now, Sir, it is clear that in the colleges in
Cork and in Galway the Roman Catholic students will be a
majority, but I do hope that the Protestant youth of the neigh-
bourhood will attend those colleges and share in the advan-
tages of education in the arts and sciences which can there
be procured. But suppose wealthy Protestant parents should
be anxious to secure for their children attending those col-
leges, that some provision should be made for the education of
those children in the doctrines of the religion held by their
forefathers, by means of private benefactions and endowments
for securing them religious instruction in the colleges of Cork
anti Galway, it would be hard beyond measure if full effect
were not given to these beneficent intentions, ' and if every
facility were not afforded for carrying them into effect. We
intend that this Bill should afford all these fa-
cilities. Of course there will be no compulsory at-
tendance on these theological in-tructions, and the
professorships will only be instituted in case there
should be a sufficient number of students, and a provision made
by benefaction and endowment. The principle equally applies
to the Roman Catholics. I suppose and hope that many Roman
Catholic youths will attend the college of Belfast. That college
will be mainly a Presbyterian college, but it would be hard be.
yond measure if the parents of Roman Catholics should not
have every facility afforded them for erecting endowments for
the religious instruction of their children in that college. The
attendance on these theological instructions will, as I said be-
fore, not be compulsory. The fundamental principle of this
meaaure—that upon which I ask for it the sanction of this
House—is the avoidance of all interference, positive or negative,
with the religious scruples of the people. That is the principle for
which I contend—that is the principle from which I anticipate
the success of the measure.—( Hear.) I have said that there
were certain circumstances relating to Belfast to which I would
allude. Now, the House will bear in mind, that the acade-
mical institution of Belfast has received the aid of a Parlia-
mentary grant of 2;10/. a year. This for some years past
has been voted in the annual estimates. That institution
was originally founded on the principle for which I contend
as clearly necessary for the foundation of academical institu-
tions in Ireland. That institution is mainly attended by the
Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, and by the Presbyte-
rian youth training for the university in that part of the
country. There are in that institution now four
endowed ministers, as professors of Divinity, nominated, not
by the governing body of the academical institution, bat by the
General Assembly of Ulster, in connexion with that circuit.
It would be hard to deprive that body of the benefits they have
now received for a period approaching, I think, to twenty years.
It is not the intention of the Government to deprive the
General Assembly of Ulster of the benefits they have hitherto
enjoyed. It would form no part of this plan—it would be in-
consistent with the principles of this Bill to introduce anything
into the particular character of theological endowments, but in
making this statement it is right that I should inform the
House that it is the intention of the Government, in the annual
votes, to propose the continuance of the endowment of the four
ministers connected with the Presbyterian Church in the
north of Ireland--to continue it not only in the present year,
but they contemplate its continuance in the future estimates of
future years. Now, I cannot speak confidently, but I have
' every reason to believe if this measure should be sanctioned by
Parliament, that facility will be given by the academical mana-
gers of the academical institutien of Belfast, to transfer their
building and premises, and even their library, on easy terms,
to the Government, for the purpose of founding a college in
the north of Ireland. Of course, if that arrangement should
take place, it would tend materially to diminish the expense;
at the same time there is an expenditure which I are quite sure
the House would sanction. The professors now serving in
that institution have engagements with the college that they
shall receive the salary voted by Parliament for their lives,unless
they shall be removed on account of misconduct. That is a
bargain with that institution. I think it would be highly in-
convenient, if this institution:should be transferred, to limit the
choice of the Crown to these particular professors, because
sonic of them might be taken and some of them it might be
desirab'e not to re-appoint, but in case any one of those gen-
tlemen now occupying a situation for life, and not being re-
appointed, I think a provision should be made for ample and
tun compensation. Now, Sir, as relates to the question of
colleges, I am not aware that I have failed to state anything
calcula'ed to make the plan of the Government intelligible to
the House. But I should leave my statement in a
very imperfect condition if I did not, before I sat down, glance
at other great and pecuniary interests. The Bill which I shall
ask leave to introduce does nn more than propose to found
colleges in Ireland. But the great question immediately pre-
sents itself, will these three colleges be established as one uni-
versity, or, following the example of Scotland, shall the
Crown, its the exercise of its prerogative, endow each of these
colleges with the faculty of granting degrees in arts, science,
and medicine ? It is not necessary, nor even expedient, in the
present Bill, or at the present time, to come to a definite ar-
rangement on that point. But I will not, for a moment, be so
far deficient in candour asnot to state to the House what my own
judgment is on the matter. I think that the advantages in
favour of a central university preponderate.—( Hear, hear.) I
think that a central university would be a common arena
where the youth of' Ireland may contest, in honest and honour-
able rivalry, for the advantages and emoluments of superior in-
dustry and superior attainmonta. The national elliglacter of
such an institution can only be exalted by such rivalry, and it
you had the parts of universities scattered throughout Ireland,
they would not be this great national institution which I am
anxious they should be. I think, also, that a great moral effect is
certain of being produced throughout the youth of Ireland, by
the competition to which I have referred. The youth of Ire-
land, meeting from their various establishments at a central
point, where they will contend for honours, to be obtained by
great merit and superior attainments, without any reference to
creed and party distinctions, will produce a most beneficial
effect on their common intercourse in future life, wherever I
they meet.--(Hear, hear.) It is impossible for any Gentle-
man
in this House, who has been in one of our own universi-
ties, not to remember, with sentiments of esteem and respect,
those with whom we contended, and whose superiority to our-
selves we may have reason to recollect. I do not think you will
secure those valuable effects in any other way with certainty,
except by coming together at one point. J admit that it has
disadvantages also, because there is great difficulty, and I be-
lieve it is inherent in the system, in obtaining sufficient number
of examiners who are accustomed to habits of teaching and
giving lectures. This brings me to the question—if you are to
have a separate university, where should it be,?—( Hear, hear. )
am bound to say that it you come to the conclusion that there
shall be a central university, that it should be in the metropolis
of Ireland. This at once presents a question of great difficulty
which lam resolved not to blink—( Hear, hear.) lam of opi-
nion that it is neither wise nor just to allow any interference
with Trinity College as it at present exists.—( Hear, hear,
from the Ministerial side.) It is strictly of Protestant forma-
tion. It was founded by Queen Elizabeth avowedly for Pro-
testant purposes. These purposes have been clearly mani-
fested from time to time, and it is from that seminary the
Established Church draws its priesthood. We have encoun-
tered much obloquy and made many painful sacrifices, if not of
friendship, at least of the confidence of many of
our !supporters, by manifesting a desire for the education of
the Roman Catholic priesthood. In proposing a grant to May-
nooth to-night, I announce the intention of the Government
to continue the annual sum, whereby the Presbyterians of the
north will have an opportunity of educating their priesthood.
I find, I repeat, Trinity College endowed by a Protestant Sove-
reign,: avowedly for the purpose of providing ministers for the
established religion in Ireland; and I cannot, under such cir-
cumstances, think it right that that property should be taken
away or disturbed. It is right that I should inform
the House that Trinity College is so interwoven and
blended by long use and by long possession with Dub-
lin University, that even if it were expedient to
make a severance, it would be found difficult, if not dangerous,
to do so. And, be it remembered, neither that college nor the
Dublin University were exclusively established. In 1793, that
memorable year when the elective franchise was given to the
Roman Catholics—when the Relief Act was passed by the Irish
Parliament, a very singular arrangement took place in reference
to Dublin University. I will read for the House a clause of an
Act which was passed at that time for the relief of Roman Ca-
tholics. After recounting the preamble, the clause went on to
" and be it enacted that from and after the first day of
June, 1793, it may not be necessary for any person taking de-
grees usually conferred by said university, to make or subscribe
any declaration, or take any oath, save the oath of al-
legiance." Letters patent here issued by the Sovereign,
cohfirming and extending these privileges to Roman Catho-
lics, Thus Roman Catholics entering Dublin university
could have no scruples in entering those colleges. They
might take degrees in the university, and partake of all its ad-
vantages—( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. shiel)
—and when I say all the advantages I except certain emolu-
mentary advantages which this university affords. Now, I
have to call the attention of the House to a matter of the
highest importance, I mean the evidence given by Mr. O'Con •
nett before a Committee of their Lo:dships' House on this very
point, namely, whether it would be de,irable that the Queen's
College, which had at first been instituted and intended solely
fir Protestants, should be opened to Roman Catholics.—(The
Right Hon. Gentleman then referred to the evidence given by
Mr. O'Connell before a Committee of the House of Lords,
the purport of the answers given by the Honourable
Member for Cork being, that as Trinity College
was intended only for the, education of Protestants by
its founders, it would be unfair, if not unjust, to admit Ro-
man Catholics to its privileges. I have not a word more to
add here.--( Cheers.) This evidence was given before a
Committee of the House of Lords, and it appears to me con-
clusive on this subject. Now, I must say, that the intention to
force on the Protestants of Ireland the admission of Roman
Catholics into the Queen's College, is destructive of their
rights of conscience ; it is imagined by them a violation of
the Constitution—a violation which would spread such an alarm
throughout the whole body as would render any measure pro-
posed by Government entirely impracticable; and, therefore,
it is that the Government do not propose to bring forward
any proposition to this effect. The subject was brought before
the Irish Parlirment in 1797, and certain resolutions were
a'!opted, among them was one which I will read to the House.
The Right lion. Gentlemen read the resolution to the House,
which was to the effect that the adoption of a second uni-
versity in Iceland was calculated to do the greatest good in that
country. That question did net, however, arise in the pre-
,ent Bill, its only object being to establish three provincial
colleges, and, looking practically to the question, I am disposed
'o recommend the measure to the House, as least
,pen to objection, and practical in execution.—(Hear. )
And now let me say a few words in reference to the Hon.
Member for Waterford.—( Hear, hear.) Ido say I would in-
deed but ill discharge my duty if I were not to bear to him
the hemble meed of my praise for the part he has taken in re-
ference to this question.—( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member
has persevered in his advocacy of an extended system of educa-
tion in Ireland, in good report and in evil report—( Hear,
heart)—and under circumstances of having against him at one
time an adverse Government ; yet he did his utmost to give
the measure effect, without permitting the interference of any
ill-feeling towards a Government that did not possess his con-
fidence.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, a course more high-minded
and honourable than that pursued by the Hon. Member for
• Waterford could not have been followed by any man—( Hear,
hear)—and whatever may be the fate of this measure, whether
it be rejected or not, I shall never forget that a large portion
of the metit—if merit it has—is due to the Hon. Member for
Waterford,—( Hear, hear.) I think, also, that some attention
is due to the opinion of the Honourable Member,
for he has attended very carefully to the sub-
ject, and has
confinedprhaientgicallpyrnsineisl himselfeolleesin
to
Ireland.—the n
own shall e-
cesity of establishing
( Hear, hear.) Before I sit down I readg the opinion of
the Hen. Member, expressed by
pressed by him in a letter to Lord Mor-