The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-06 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

1.41 t. DOWNIE presented a. petition from the Corn Mer-
e:4o:s ma others of Stirling against the Bill for the Regulation
cf (.rn Averagoso'—Ordered to lie on the table.
Serjeant ON'SLO W presented a petition from certain Soß-
wr.-.orzi end Attorneys of Ireland, praying that the provisions of
a Bill now in progress through the House for facilitating the-
ae=ission into the profession of such Gentlemen as have ob-
.at..-.oed degrees from tire English Universities, might be extend-
to Gentlemen in Ireland who have obtained degrees from
-Trinity College, Dublin. The Honourable Member at the
-vome tome gave notice, that he would add a clause to the Bill
it-- conformity with the prayer of the petitioners.—The petition
w-a 4 ordered to lie on the table.
The Regent's Canal Bill was read a third time and passed.
:dr. J. MACKINTOSH gave notice, that on Tuesday next,
he would move-for leave to bring in a Bill for the Reformation
cri the Critniria) Code. The Honourable and Learned Member
stated, that he would on that day merely move to have the:Bill
„load a nut time, reserving the discussion of the question to
;-...-otarsday, the 3d of May.
;An MONTEITH presented a petition from the Corn Mer-
e:Oa:its of Glasgow, against the Bill for Regulating the Corn
itrerages.—Ordered to lie on the table.
r,fr. F. PALMER presented a petition from Owners of Land
a Biggleswade, complaining of agricultural distress—Referred
o the Agricultural Committee.
On the motion of Sir J. NEWPORT, an Account of the
Zr.-kie and Custom Duties collected in Ireland was ordered.
;vi . BASTARD presented a'Petition from certain Occupiers
of :brand in Devon, complaining of agricultural distress.—Re-
lerted to the Committee.
Mr. CLIVE brought up the Third Report of the Commis-
se:Omen-for inquiring into the state of Weights and Measures.—
C.`o--d'ered to lie on the table.
Xr. C. CALVERT moved for a return of the number of
P4ooners confind under the Orders of the Courts of Requests,
in :;outhwark, in the Borough Compter, for the last three
roars. distinguishing the number confined in each year, and
ti:.t'„!o'mount of the debts, &c.—Ordered accordingly.
..Er. HUME postponed his motion which stood for Wednes-
tia.Llast, but which dropped in consequence of the House not
htenno; met on that day, to Tuesday next, rest eeting the Dis-
vt--a'ification of Officers belonging to the Ordnance Department
m sitting in that House.
• Air. LUSHINGTON brought up an Account of the Pro- •
elute of the Excise Duties, which was ordered by the House.
GAME LAWS.

CRANBORNE rose to bring forward his promised
melon on the subject or the Game Laws. The Noble Lord
slid, that it was far from his intention to trench upon theopri-
•vileges of any class of society; but in contemplating tit effects
of.taz Game Laws upon the people of this country, it was but
too obvious that those laws encouraged crime, and tended to
foil the N
jails
with the-unfortunate. The oble Lord proceeded
to rtake shme•further observations, which were inuabiWe in the
fosaero, and oontiuded:by moving for a Committee to inquire
;zit: the State of the Oame Laws.
SEBRltriffi"rose to second the motion. He said
that. he did not know. exactly what were the changes which
tare Noble Lard intended to make : but he was sure that any
would be for the better ; a• set of laws more !absurd
cer more unjust never disgraced any country. With respect
to the elfecta of the Game Laws, he had no • hesitation in
!.4..:.-ft.-g„ that they tended to demoralize the people. It was his
..14;pon, that game should be put upoutho same footing as
tx4117--property. • • • •
:::or J. SHELLEY said no one in the House would be less
than he xas to.treat with disrespect whatever fell from
to iooble Lord (-Lord Cranborne), but when it was recollected
&at a Bill respecting the Game Laws had been brought in by
fire !Cottle Lord, late Member for Hertfordshire (Loid Deere),
;;44 el forced by all his eloquence and popularity, and yet had
:a did not expect much from the present motion. How-
eTio-, the Noble Lord hid said, to use sporting language,
" tliotioh Lord Deere missed fi,e, I'll whip up hil jacket, and
• Lave a, shot' at the Game Law." The Game - Laws had not
I,catfairly treated by the Noble Lord ; for there was no set of
;.fir that might not be open to objection, if their bad effects
otir were conridered. If the game were destroyed, the great
iiidacement to coo otry Gentlemen- to reside on their estates
would be taken. away.
• JOSEPH YOP.KE said, that though he was not a
Itltir of game, he was an eater of that nice aiticle ; but since
the Bill bro.:light in by the I-lon. Member for Corfe Castle•had
parsedf hz had.never been able to get a second course.—(A
la.ugli..)—He hoped, whatever Bill the Noble Lord brought an,
there would. be a clause in it to-Provide, that when an humble
- individual like him-seff was about to give a dinner, and .natu-
raiii• said 'to- his " iViy dear, let us have some game"—•
iaugh),--he might not be met with the unpleasant diffi-
culty, where shall we get it?„
W. W YriN said a feW' words, which were not dis,:nctly
•r• • . audible in the
• Nr..BANITCS was g1.,01 his Eill'had been so effectual, as
• 'his it. Friend (Sir J. Yorke) had said. if that Bill destroy,
•*; ed..T'oachiog; it would .destroy the great nest of evil from
• ! I.4l:ach greatvart of the evil of the country originatecL He ob-
;octed to a Committee which would take up the time of. the
artfour.e without adding any thing to its inforroatiOn., Astbe
subject was not new, the Noble Lord might at once move for
Ifa•Ototo•bring in a Bill. As to the Game Laws themselves, no
qr./1, CouV. deny that a great number of persons were: at present
in I•;riaon4hi amount of the Game Laws, and nothing .would be
•' • rnors4raoy thantoput an-end to this, by abolishing the Laws.
rut th;..s might be said of any other law. TheY all lameattd
the rouin'.'es cf petrfithinehta for-forgery. Nothing was mere
' easy. than to put an, end tolte laws against it. But what then
.tocarlv of- tileproperty of t country ?So they might abolish
the “.atne .Laws, but what then became of the Game of the
tcknittry ? The general permission to shoot would: - only make.
•Xit cnuntty peopleltr. thnes.motevicious and .indolent.; 'and ht.
siz months the Game would be•destroyoct, and•the bitter classes
of poople•wuld •be left without thelfathdiarbent, Which at

tached them to the mintry. He recommended the Noble '
Mover, if he wanted any information, to move that the Report
of 1816 be reprinted..
Colonel WOOD said, he was the unfortunate individual who
moved for the Committee-of 1816—(A laUgh).—When he had
got into that Comujittee, he found that they would agree to no-
thing:that he propoSed. He had proposed to the Committee to
examine to that extent the evil of poaching had gone, and to
consider a remedy. This the Committee refused, and said they
would take for, granted there was a great deal of evil from
poaching. So that after much discussion the only resolution
the Committee came to was this—" That it is the opinion of
this Committee that Game should be the property of the person
on whose ground it is found :" and so they reported. As for
the remark of his Honourable Friend (Sir Joseph Yorke), that
no one in London could get a second course, he could only say
that his Honourable, Friend was not so much in the confidence
of the Poulterers as he was. He (Colonel W.) found no dif-
ficulty in getting it to any extent ; and if his Honourable
Friend would give them a dinner, he would undertake to buy
game for him--(A laugh.)--He could not help thinking, that
it was of importance that the Committee should be appointed,
for he was confident that poaching now went on' to as great an
extent as ever it did. The Poulterers were forced to encourage
it, even against their own will. What they said was, "to cut
off the supply altogether, or let it be legalized." As to the
ramedy two courses were open—(A laugh.)--Either they might
re-tread their steps, and return to the state in which they were
.till the, latter end of the reign of George ll.' when the sale of
.Game was legal, the rest of the laws remaining the same ; or
they might (to which he was more inclined) adopt a new course,
making Game the property of the occupier of the land. Ha
recommended also a 'revision of the law as to qualifications
which was now enforced only against the Poor. 'The Certifi-
cate might be raised to 51. and all qualifications taken away.—
He was very anxious the co:-:Au Gentlemen should have every
inducement to reside on their estates, but it was their interest
to consider the question with liberality, and to put down an evil
which filled the jails with peasantry, and laid the foundation 'of
'it, many crimes.
Mr. DOUGLAS said, poaching had not increased more
than other offences. He opposed the motion.
Sir. C. BURRELL defended the Game Laws, and argued
against the proposal for making Game property, which would
lead to more bloodshed than the present system.
Mr. LOCKHART objected to the appointment of:a Com-
mittee, for which he saw no grounds, and in which he could ex-
pect no union of Opinion. He thought much evil would arise
from making game property. It wasto be recollected that great
part of the country was. yet .in common field. In those places
also, where the country was divided into small freeholds, the
law would then be migatory.: -
Mr. BENETT (of Wilts) thought the Game Laws requir-
ed revision. There were very few persons, he observed, who
stole sheep who did not first begin by poaching. If game was
put upon the samefooting as other property it would be the
interest of the occupiers of the land to preserve it ; it was now
their interest to destroy it. it might be then sold so cheap that
it would not be worth the poacher's while to sell game. .It
might be then sent to London cheaper than any kind of
poultry. .
Mr. COE:E, jun. was in favour of the Amendment of the
Hon. Baronet. The tendency of the motion was to degrade
the character of County Gentlemen by mixing up with their
sports and pleasures a sordid and mercenary spirit. He was
not an unqualified admirer of the Game Laws ; but if they only
induced-Gentlemen to reside on their estates, they accomplished
much benefit. He thought it impossible to put an end to the
crime of poaching, which was not at all looked upon as a
moral offence : the purchasers of game were the abetters of
poaching.
Mr. WARRE was convinced that whatever penalties might
be inflicted, game would still be purchased, and in large quan-
tities. He should vote for the Committee, as the present Laws
were the parents of much crime.
Lord LOWTHER opposed the motion, as he was sure that
no advantageous result could arise out of inquirir.'
Mr. 1-1.1 BO RD admitted that poaching.ought to be put
down ; but as the present Laws did not put-it down, he thought
an alteration might be made which would be more effectual.—
A great moral evil existed, and inquiry might possibly lead to
a remedy. As to residence in the country; he did not think
much would be lost by the absence of those Gentlemen whose
only object was to shoot pheasants.
Lord CRANBORNE replied, vindicating the motives that
had induced him to submit the proposition for a Committee.
The House then divided :

For the Committee - - 52
_I Against it - 86
When re-admitted, we found Mr. HumE•on his legs ask-
ing some question regarding the Navy Estimates ; but it was
inaudible.

AGRICULTURAL HORSES.

Mr. Cuawam rose to bring for Ward his motion
regard;ng the Agricultural Horse Tax. He-was
satisfied that the repeal of this impost would not
be attended with any considerable relief to the
distressed farmer; but it would; at the same
time, be gratifying; to the feelings of the
ikm-
,
pers of land, and there never was a time when it
was mere proper for Ministers to give them hope
and alleviation. The tax was on all accounts
objectionable ; it fz,ll most unequally, most
heavily upon the poorest lands, while grass farms
paid scarcely any thing : small clay farms also
suffered .severely ; and in not a few instances the
occupier was obliged to pay for a saddle-horse,
though he never used one. The Agricultural
Horse Tax was often one-sixth part of the rent
upon steril soils, while it did not reach half that
amount in better situations. It was a cruel, op-
pressive, and grievous tax upon the little farmer :
and if the' Chancellor of the ExChequer would
not condescend to notice what he said, he (Mr.
Curwen) hoped that the Noble Lord would take
the distresses of Agriculture into consideration,
and as far as possible assist them : a fair oppor-
tunity or so doin7, though in a slight degree, was
now afforded. He would mention a circumstance
which occurred in the country some time•ago :
There was a man near 70 years .of age ; he was
on his way to market loaded with i,packs and
goods ; a fox crossed the road ; the, old man had
been a sportsman, and, unable to resist the ar-
dour of the chase, he threw down his packs and
pursued the unlooked-for chase with all.the ardour
which mig,itt be expected froth- a younger man
and a better horse. The circumstance occasioned
considerable.amusementat the time ; but, being'
talked of, an excise-officer got scent of the'af-
fair and informed against.the pedlar, who had to
pay the tax and the surcharge for his newly-dub-
bed hunter '--(A, laugh,)--:.-The time must speedily
come when the Chancellor of the Exchequer must
relieve the. poor"man, who •had nothing to pay,
from taxes which it was cruel to impose upon
him.. This reani-ssien Wriuld, operate a saving 'of
6d. a•Week. in every artithlOof his consumption.
Ile (Mr. Curwen) was aware that it *its the -moSt
.difficult of all task. • to require of. ministers to
give up any. part of therevenuein its present di-
lapidated state;.: but the Princi-ple`of this tax was
altogether' erroueOus,and itasconsequences altoge-
ther fatal and destruCtive: , He could assure the
Chancellor of. the :EXchequer that The idea- of
throWittg the poor grounds-,-those of inferior qua,
lity—:nirt of .cultivation; •Was -the• most disastrous
that.,could be entertained,,. 'Would the -Chan-
cell"or of the-Exchequer-- Lt. surprised when he
told him who were OW the,grea.t speculators in
corn 'and grain Wort hi* he believe him when he
saidL-:Ahe MonarchS of Europe ?—(Hear!),-:•And
in, August last' the greacer.part• of , the immense
importation which'tooit place_ Was. from stares
of the of SUreden aild if Aye ever eXpe
rieneed a.,acarcity,Hwirich God forbid.! hand
Nl4O id require a sudden, importation of 'grain,
there Was tlX.4ingOf-Deninark reatly..to supply
us with,enormous quantities,--which we
collected in Holland on, his account, inAlie,e,yent
,demand being made'.7.-(ffear
might. Observe. that :metallic,springss-,-apinied: to,
ottS,.,,badr,been'-:faipfcL to saman4riftneiasitrof

labour ; yet, the mornent this was done, the
owner of the cart was liable to pay for it as a
gig ; and hence arose a variety of Vexatious sur-
charges. lie hoped the Noble .Lord would use
his influence with the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer to induce him to withdraiv impositions so
grievous as these were. They were the more iii:.
tolerable as they attacked the poor and indus-
trious farmer, and were most hard where the un-
genial nature of bad soils demanded the most
lenient visitation of Government in the way of
taxes. For his own part, he would venture to
recommend,'as the most equitable and least vex-
atious of all taxes, a tax upon income.--(llear.)
If a moderate tax of 51. per cent. upon income
were so levied as to include in its operation the
fundholder and the laudholder—for that was the
fair and proper principle—and if it should be, im-
partially applied, he (Mr. Curwen) would give
it his most hearty support. If the Chancellor of
the Exchequer adopted this course, lie would no
doubt find himself enabled to remit the leather
tax, a large portion of the salt tax, and the last
tax on malt, as well as that upon soap and can-
dles ; and thus every body in the country would
be benefited excepting the Government.-(Cheers
and laughter.)—Yet, when he said this, he
was by no means certain that the revenue
would not be increased, from the decreased
charge of collection and other circumstances. The
only real loss would be, perhaps, a loss of that
extensive patronage on the part of Ministers, of
which it would be difficult for any man to show
what had been the.benelicial result. If he needed
to adduce any additional circumstances on the
state of the country to induce a compliance with
his motion, he would refer the House to this me-
lancholy fact—that no less a sum than 2,000,000/.
was annually paid for paupers.—(Bear!)—This
enormous amount was advanced by the country
to pay their proportion of the taxes. Out of
8,000,0001. of poor's rates, 2,000,0001. was paid
to the Government in the shape of taxes for those
individuals who had nothing wherewith to pay
them. He maintained that the country had a
right to call upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to
change his system, and he entreated the Noble
Lord to second the demands of the country upon
that Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) to avert from it a catastrophe to
which the course he was pursuing was now rapidly
leading it. In proportion as the value of land
had fallen, the quantum of poor rates had become
more heavy on the small farmer, the townsman,
and the shopkeeper. The Right lion. Gentle-
man might begin, therefore, by giving to the far-
mer a boon in acceding to this motion, which
would be most gratefully felt and produce the
most extensive. benefit. This might be the com-
mencement of a system of amelioration,which might
yet effect a change in the aspect of this kingdom,
of the most healthful and advantageous descrip-
tion. He (Mr. Curwen) had already ventured
to suggest in what manner this course of improve-
ment might be followed up, and once again he
earnestly recommended these observations to the
serious attention of the Hon. Gent. opposite. As
for this particular tax, it was evident and
notorious that its rigour was most painfully
and most justly felt in the northern coun-
ties of England, and in North Wales, where,
from the nature of the soil, the employment of
horses in agriculture was matter of absolute and
indispensible necessity. lie should therefore
move'' for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so
niuch of the Acts of the 48th and 52d of George
and of the 2d of George IV., as imposes
certain duties on horses employed for agricultural
purposes, and for the conveyance of lime, coals,
and certain merchandize."

Sir W. W. WYNN, in seconding, the motion,
urged the hardship to which the farmers upon
poor lands were subject under the existing tax ;
for, in proportion as those lands were poor, they
were obliged to carry to it an additional quantity
of manure, which of course rendered necessary
the employment of more horses. But still he
Could not help expressing a wish that his Hon.
Friend had postponed his motion until the. Re-
port of the Agricultural Committee were laid be-
fore the House•—(Hear, hear, on the Treasury
Bench.)

The motion having-been read by the Speaker,
Sir. C. BURRELL rose, and after declaring his
concurrence with the principle of the motion,. ex-
pressed a wish, as the seconder had done, that it
had been rather.postponed until the Report of the
Agricultural Corrimittee were brought up. The
unequal pressure of the existing tax, especially
with respect to inferior lands, could not be de-
nied by any one acquainted with agriculture.
For instance, where land required lime, which
was particularly the case with lands of inferior
quality, :additional horses must- be employed to
carry it, for oxen, although they answered the
purpose of agriculture, in the field, could not
carry great weights for any distance upon the
roads. The lion. Member detailed some further
disadvantages to which the occupier of inferior
lands was liabliclnd which made it necessary
.for
him to employ more horses than could be required
for good lands. Hence, the Farmer was pecu-
liarly aggrieved by the existing tax. Under all
the circumstances,. he trusted his Hon. Friend
Would consent to postpone his motion until•after
the Report of the Agricultural Committee. •
Mr. DAVENPORT would also support this pro-
position, and trusted-the Hon. Member f-.;• Cum-
berland would not postpone it.
Mr. 13NNNETT warmly advocated the motion
of. his
_Honourable Friend, and, with the 'last
Honourable. Speaker, could see no necessity for
its. poStponement. lie thought a tax on hot-
houses wonld defeat its own object, by'occasioning
an instant•reductio.n:of their number.

Lord. BEr.onAvE (we believe), from under the
galleryi also supported. the motion, and took the
opportUnitli-Oe'asking: the' Chancellor of the Ex-
Chequer-whether it, was true that the colleges
and pnylit I.eminaries 'did not. contribute their
portioßto.the windowtax. If. it Avere, he should
shortly subriiit.a motion on the subject, conceiv-
ina that the exemption )vas entirely improper.
CnANbpE.Loii of the Exon EQ EIC said, un-
;doulitedly the Cidleges did pay window tax,
beineratekinproportion to the number of apart-
ruentsin:ocpupation. . •
IV.I:CiIIIWENi seeing the temper of the House,

and on an Understanding that, Upon the bring-
ing., up of the report, the Chancellor :of the
Exchequer would be disposed to extend relief
to the agricultural interest, by a modification
of taxes which bore most heavily and mischiev-
ously on them, would have no hesitation in with-
drawing his motion.—(llear, hear? from Lord
Castlereagh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
wished to know the degree of importance which
the Committee of Agriculture would be disposed
to attach to the repeal of this Tax. Unless they
-considered its repeal of great importance to the
agricultural interests, he thought no benefit aris-
ing from it could equal the inconvenience which
would result in a financial point of view, from the
subtraction of so large a sum as 500,0001. a year
from the revenue.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE was satisfied that the coun-
try would consider the repeal of the Husbandry
Horse Tax as a great relief. He did not wish
to undervalue the opinion of the Committee up
stairs ; he must say that he thought it would be
much better for the House to grant this small
boon to the Agriculturists at the present mo-
ment, without waiting for any thing.—Such a
step would produce a favourable effect upon the
country in general. •
Mr. Girrs thought the motion would come
with greater weight after the Report of the Agri-
cultural Committee.

Mr. RICAnno said he should support the pre-
sent motion, though he did not think that either
this Tax or the Tax upon Malt, for the repeal
of which he had also voted, pressed very parti-
cularly upon the agricultural interests. They
fell rather upon the consumer than upon the agri-
cultural interests, and he voted for their repeal
upon the general principle of economy.. While
he consid(fred that any reduction might be made
in the public expenditure, he should vote for the
repeal of this and any other tax whatsoever.
With regard to the national debt, the whole pro-
perty of country was pledged to pay the in-
terest of that debt. It was absurd to contend
that the whole pressure of taxation fell upon the
agricultural classes. The taxes pressed gener-
ally upon all classes of the community, and the
fundholder paid a large portion of them. Before
he sat down, he wished to make one observation
with reference to what had fallen from the Hon.
Member for Cumberland. The Honourable
Gentleman said, that the King of Sweden and
other Monarchs were the first corn merchants in
Europe, and that we were in fact dealing with
them, and not with common mercantile men. If
so, he (Mr. IL.) thought we had a better chance
of making a good bargain with them, than with
the common importers of Corn. The Honourable
Gentleman said the King of Sweden would not
be content to exchange his Corn for our manu-
factures, he would take nothing but bullion, and
that bullion was not to be acquired. If so, the
Honourable Gentleman's apprehensions as to ex-
cessive importation were groundless, and his own
arguments afforded a sufficient security for this
country growing its own Corn.
Mr. BAILING regretted that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Somersetshire (Sir T. Lethbridge) had
though proper to introduce some observations in
the course of this discussion, which were perfect-
ly uncalled for by the question before the House.
Such observations came with peculiarly ill grace
from Gentlemen, who, like the Hon. Member for
Somersetshire, had never in a single instance re-
fused their support to his Majesty's Ministers, and
who, after having eased themselves of the bur-
thesis of the public expenditure, lay borrowing
money of others, were now ready to cheat the
public creditor (for he could use no,otlier lan-
guage)
of the money which had been advanced for
their relief. He did not apprehend, however, that
the opinions of the Hon. Member for Somerset-
shire srere likely to be much countenanced, or to
make much progress in the country. Ile could
not but express some surprise to hear his Hon.
Friend behind him (Mr. Ricardo) who advocated
the sound principles on the subject of the Nation-
al Debt, declare his determination to vote for
the Repeal of any Taxes as long as the Sinking
Fund remained, for his argument went that
length. If he had objected only to the mode of
keeping the accounts of the Sinking Fund, he
IL) was perfectly ready to concur with
him, for it was calculated only to puzzle and con-
fuse. But to say that a Sinking Fund ought not
to be maintained, was in 'effect to say that the
country should go on borrowing, as lorr,s as
fools enough could be found to lend their
money, and that no security should be offered to
the creditor.—(Hear, hear !)—With respect to
the repeal of the present Tax, he did not think it
was calculated to afford much relief to the agri-
cultural interests ; nor did he think that much
more information than Honourable Gentlemen al-
ready possessed' upon the subject, was likely to
be obtained by waiting for the Report of the
Committee. For his ownyart, he had always con-
sidered the maintenance of the finances of the
country an object of essential importance, and
he thought the country would be better able to
engage-in any contest, or cope with any difficul-
ties, with a strong finance than with a strong
snilitary or naval establishment.
Mr. CALcitasse said, he was as desirous to keep
up the financial credit of the country as his lion.
Friend the Member for Taunton could possibly
be, but
.with respect to the question of keeping
up a Sinking Fund, it was necessary to consider
how far the comforts and means of the people
would enable us to do so. Such was the state of
the country, and such the situation of particular
classes of the community, that it was better, even
with a view to keeping up the national credit, to
relax a certain part of the public burthen, than
to, press the good people, to extremity. Let our
army and navy establishments be reduced, and
that reduction would afford the very means of keep-
ing up the Sinking Fund. Ile did not object to
the Sinking Fund, but to the manner in which
the Sinking Fund was erripl,:yed. The Sinking
Fund was in fact a hoard of money kept up at a
great expence, and taken from the people at in-
convenient periods, and by hard means. It was a
large treasure amassed under the name of asSink-
jug Fund, and lavished at pleasure by the Go-
vernment. Was that the way to economise, or
to save the resources of
.the people ?, The money

would be much taro.) he contended, in the
pockets Of the people, both as a security for
themselves, and a resource for the State, than it
was even in the hands of the Commissioners for
discharging the public debt. With respect to
the motion before the House, he should certainly
support it if his Hon. Ffiend thought proper to
press it to a division ; but he could not help
wishing that he would consent to postpone it
until after the Report of the Agricultural Com-
mittee.

Lord MILTON did not' believe that the .dis-
tresses of the agriculturists were properly appre-
ciated by the Members of that House, and
especially by the Members of his Majesty's
Government. Though a Committee had Peen
appointed to inquire into the present agricul-
tural distress, he was led to believe, from the
rumours which were abroad, that Ministers had
come into the Committee in domt as to the exis
tence of that distress. On this subject he
thought they ought to have made lip their minds
before granting the Committee. The Bill his
Hon. Friend wished to introduce he thought might
be brought in, and it could then be suspend-
ed in its stages till the Committee made their
Report. He then described the distressed stale
of the Southern Counties, and described large
tracts of land to lie unoccupied with little pros-
pects of their landlords finding tenants. lie
considered the tax to press severely on the agri-
culturist, and should therefore vote for its re-
peal on a principle different from that on which
on a former evening he should have voted for the
repeal of the Malt Tax had he been present. He
should vote for, the repeal of the Agricuhural
Horse Tax to relieve the landed interest ; for the
repeal of the Malt Tax he would have voted on
the principle laid down by the Member for Port•
arlington, and on that contended for by the Mem-
ber for Rippon, to compel the Ministry to have
recourse to a system of retrenchment andeconomv.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained-
Mr. CURWEN understanding the Right lion.
Gentleman to say, that in the event, of the re-
moval of this tax being strongly recommended by
the Committee in their report., he would be dis-
posed to consider of the point of conceding the
boon. Understanding this to be the intention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he undoubtedly
should think it his duty to give way. He how-
ever begged to state, that if the Committee fail-
ed to make their report till a very late period of
,the Session, he should feel himself at liberty to
bring the subject forward again.
The CHANcELLoa of the EXCHEQUER thought
nothing more fair than that the llon.'Gentlerna.°
should have in his own breast the right of resit.'
ing the motion, if the Report of the Coromitte°
should be so long delayed, as to make it pre"
bable that waiting for that, no practical meaitl
could be adopted in the course of the prese°
Session. He then repeated what he had Prf,i
viously stated as to the course which he 010'4
feel it to be his duty to pursue on the Report
the Committee being made.
Mr. H. BRIGHT thought it right to state, thJ
if in the event of the Malt Tax being repo,,,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer should prel)7t.o
a substitute for it, he should feel it his dot, I
oppose it. He would not consent to the reoWva's.
of a tax from one class, if it was intended -to ito'
pose it on others.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQVER TeserV-
e
to himself the right of proposing another tax as
substitute for the Malt Tax, if it should be 15:
pealed, and it would then be for the ficul
to determine which would be the least opPre'sive
After a few words from Mr. Alderman
SMITH, Mr. D. BROWN, and another Honourable
Member,
Lord ALTHORPE said, if the Right Hollong;
ble Gentleman pledged himself to take off
tax, if this should be recommended irr flit'
port of the Committee, he would consent to tof
motion being withdrawn, but if the Chancell°re
the Exchequer declined giving such it pledge
should wish the question to be pressed to _.
vision.
Mr. F. LEWIS rose, but the call for the 01
tion being very loud, the Hon. Member xes 00vv-
his seat, and the Gallery was cleared. We hood
ever, understood thil no division took place'
that the motion was withdrawn.

BANK CASH PAYMENTS BILL.
- - - • owed tb:
&
• The CHANCELIAHt a the EXCHEQUER
..T.,,;liiitV-
order of the day for the House resolving its into a '''.. •.,
On the Bank Cash Pay•ments Bill. .irStrlvi,t
Mr—BARING rose for .the purpose of moving.n-be I-loci':
. otsiacOcrnya .striooo
I!: i;heibm:tt ol i.taeCommittee.
iccoezitsze'
111
eutdclhvtobotelfhitinheenatosiutn,rl;l i
toeo foblitehs coernlico;ootji:iii, escotaiint,:fe:.i.
itihnepcoorttlanntcery,tothtahte
hctemei
01117 i tyn,oitnsttihffeelp re
thiset i
ot
pdpisutr, :7:.,,),t,0,
,t F;:. 4,,
_,,,,,a, ..,,, c.....
tn the
without recording hiasent i m e n t s upon it. The Pr..triitY —e, f
sid,.red the last time he should have that opPeif. rt,iel'—,,ll()
progress of the bill before -the 'House. The inef,,--ivt'etect bY. ---'
frequent changes in the currency was felt and s-",:;aioull
Since the House had determined that .the DO:tosUre whicti •
gold, members must have been considering 0' r-ps of the c°l'o"
it would lyi iiltely to have upon the diffueiat ells doubts
doubts
munity ; -and every Gentleman who entertaine","'cfini in wi'j,
to the efficacy of the measure, ought to join wito
econsperfr
inq that the whole of the subject should now be _ri, be an -,,,,:
TheMemb,er ConclUded by
rite ti
of his 1112,e
struction to the Coim.ittce to reconsider t''-'e Act ') ~,le; for l'of
M-kiesty (Chap. ,W), nth a view to amend the 5,—,,,taa1ti0u.,„
purpose of alleviating the pressure which the stric,s‘c or, pubil'
that Act would have on the vari,Jus branches ''''''
interE.st.
The CHANCELLOR o the .E7c-C"Qbter:
e
would oppose the motion offthe floo. MeL,,„,`1.„,„6 whi,ch..h.atti
would be no necessity cf goivg bsck td..lllV-Tyas a probahllt Y,
been already discus,,,:ed. IlowLver, as t.ll(i,rieole time, and
.33
that this qu,stion would occupy a eonliiviiih was exPeet'f,,,
there was other business before toe flocs' id Propoe, that
t.,„
to be gore through with to-night, be ill bc Fotpoped till
order for going into the Committee on t'lc. 10
Monday. Mr. ,FiLLIqF, . .1_
-This proposition, after a few words fr°lnf the Elteltr,tlL. ~
H. G. BENNET, and the CIIAI{CELLOR 0 a to
tponc
was agreed to. was also pos
'll
The Irish Bank Cash Payments Ili
Monday. • „,,7! ADE.'
4•Dat ... J.... he
MERCHANTS TN TET Tl' —
t'tion front t
• . e t 1
Mr. BANI NG pl'esented a the North 0
. • aino- to,e
Merchants of London .tr ,• •,. eat 0.1. rat
Europe, adjutrn at
buTittllere
Europe praying for such a •
Duties on • tv. ....1V
interests of the con-In:um ~ whether „. ,
idled to know
,ior
Mr. J. I'. GRANT W -Arnbassa--
been maue .
.. of the 0,
representations had
a the -subjeut , .
of Sweden and Norway o
5 ii
represel.:;
Timber Trade.been
here had .
. I
promote toe acne
Duties as sh• Id

Mr. AVALLAGE.,9id, t,
tations on the subject.-
. Mr. Attna-yArr Yishea to ,know yhether
representations had- en made. on the Fart o
be
. .

etlir Powers of the..almdSt total prohibition d
trade ?
-M.r.,IVALIAcE had n 6 recollection that any
€,:ch representations had been made. The Peti.
Lion .was ordered to be printed.
TIMBER DUTIES.
On the-Motion of Mr.WALLAcE that the Re=
Port of the Committee On the Acts relating to
c.,aties on Timber, should be recommitted, the
`:'e.resolved itself into a Committee. . •
• Alr• WALLAcE noticed at some length .the ob-
3,7ti."'s -which had been made to the proposi-
ii:" it bad been his duty to submit to the
L°Lic• Thes'e were most contradictory in their
nature. By some. he was accused of favouring
the'tr4de to the North of Europe too much, while
Others accused him of undue partiality for that
to North America. From these Conflicting
°I)01:ons, he was led to conclude that the pro-
I?ition.which had been brought forward was
tiPcnthe whole pretty fair to all parties con-
cerned. With the view he took of the subject he
could offer no new concessions, and he did not
feet disposed to accede to the proposition which
111-.loble Lord...opposite had submitted to the
-;i43113e on a former night. He was unwilling to
Nord any undue advantages to the trade -of
the debt owing by Norway to this country, to
1,--:ke up which be supposed all the bad debts to
O eel scraped together, did not materially bear
TI-,t°question. If 'such debt were owing, it was
it , to
rtlbe- supposed that it could be paid in wood ;
caf;tlst he settled through the medium of a nego-
hafT°o between the two Governments. Norway
itad a full share of our Timber Trade. This
IteaPprelrended could not be denied, when it was
t`-e° that she had had a third of our whole trade
o the 'North of Europe. He was disposed
hhow some favour to Norway in the ar-
tratigetnt‘nts to be made, but lie was not disposed
th- afford her such advantages as would lead to
totni exclusion of the trade of Russia and
:,11,ssia• The Hon. Member then made compa-
tf"ve statements between his proposition and
the
of the Noble Lord, thereby shelving that
e latter
„.," gave considerable advantage to :ay over over Russia. The system which had been
recommended by an Hon. Baronet was nothing
1110 re nor less than a system for excluding the
nnber of our Colonies from this country alto-
f.ett,l'• your
interests, and the interests
17 tile Colonies, had a claim upon their protec-
tit.", 'and it would be the height of injustice if
pie Committee refused to grant that protection.
ae felt confident that he had said sufficient to
convince Hon. members that the Resolution was
yiTe which Ought to be agreed to, both with a
t'ew to the conduct they were bound in fairness
Pursue,- as well as to the true interests of all
"",ties connected -With the Trade.
ir
f N
PARELL said, that nothing which had
tillen from the Right Hon. Gentleman went to
to lallge the opinion which he had previously en-
rtained upon this question. .lie considered his
ltr'4l,osition to impose a direct tax upon the coun-
itY) arid that partly for the purpose of giving
an opportunity of importing deals. If his
1-:°lciple was good in this respect, he would per-
see the propriety of extending it further in
ti,ii?til'aging a free foreign trade. If he took off tlie
.16-es upon foreign deals, why not also take off
141'e duties upon linens—(Hear, hear!)--He
hel* 11.0 reason why the duty upon hemp should
cloti ePt up at its present high rate. All these
rAshs would be reduced with the most beneficial
(.4;ittis to trade in general. The Right Hon.
grolertlau supported his proposition upon the
• et-:.1" of expediency, and upon the great pro-
-41,; i°o (which he considered to be due to the
dooTg cnd colonies. But with regard to this
4ov'rine of expediency, it was not supported by
110' °f the facts of the case. There had been
siitie4s,e made out to call for the imposition of
Ilpo;,"ties -for the sake of conferring benefit
juso..' the Colonies. Nothing had been said to
for 3' the sacrifice which the country must make
lient'e sake ofaffording protection to these par-
erel'ar interests. The bounty given would
100 (t a tax not amounting to less 'than 3 or
't.()°/• a year.. They ought as soon as possi-
tr e
° recur to sound principles as-regarded this
fid
ititYand at some future period the dutiesshOuld
tilaced upon-a footing of equali4ation. Feel-
-I)4''s,-;,at the present opportunity ought not to
Rise, "Y 'without their endeavouring, in some de-
bt°, to accomplish that object by acting upon
kii,l4l' principles he should move, as an amend,
41iit 5
the Resolution,that after the word "And,"
ser4/I*°lrds shall be left out, and the following in-
Ist'nef(4.',° their place Thaffrom and after the
:la.nuary, 1825, the duty upon all Foreign
be iturported into the United Kingdom, shall
(Ititt, Per load of 50
.cubic feet. And that the
upon all Foreign Deals imported into the
ballited Kingdom, from and after the same period,
'ktik ie 21. ss. per load of 50 cubic feet ; the
'the to be charged on the cubical contents of
.tunher."
inter .13ENNET observed, that he bed no personal
kr() est in this questionstood on neutral
B heti" •
pt he was anxious to lend his aid to
Tra,e )Port of those great Principles of Free
tlife which could alone extricate us from our
lireseetlitties. Ile urged Parliament to take the
histineril opportunity of putting at least one
Oldll of our trade out of the trammels of the
to ni
„sYste.
The system, pursued with respect
Silk"'e Timber Trade was .not like that of the fosjrade, for instance, long established and
IviZedr• It commenced only in 1807, and then,
to i)n" Specific declaration, that it was intended
tottemporary. The Committee ought to re-
horpcot, that they were legislating for England,
tillestcr Russia
rer Norway; and that the only
dinedl°n was, in what way timbi,r could he oli-
q at the cheapest rate. The Honourable
of°llrnti..7 an proceeded to ridicule the '-absurdity`
14x :".1 tug the People of this country pay a
kei.75400,000/. 'or 500;000/. to put in . the
-other of the Canadian lumber-men, or those
t 4,..'e-ulnher-Ineni the Ship Owners at home.
sCvll.entered' into a variety of calculations
)es,,d that 1?3, the operation of .the duties
im
'4,18071 .11e had driven the Norwegian,
the best timber, out of the
on. Gentle at the proos of.
roan- Would havpe then effectthe- of keeßightp-'
, •

ing it out of the. market. He then maintained
that the scale of duties recommended by his
Noble Friend was much preferable to that re-
commended by the Right _Hon. Gentleman. His
own proposition (as we understood the Hon.:Gen-
leman) was to reduce the duty on the whole of the
foreign timber one-half----that was from 31. to 305.;
and to lay that dutyon American timber; which
would give about the same amount of revenue as
the present proposition. He admitted that it
would drive bad timber from America out of the
market; but that, he contended, was desirable.
The Honourable Member, after some further ob-
servations, concluded by giving his support to
the Amendment.
Mr. KEITH DouGLAss said, he thought it
would have been better if the Hon. Baronet (Sir
11. Parnell) reserved his motion tilt the whole
question had been discussed. The system now
proposed was only experimental, and it might be
corrected by future regulations if found incon-
venient; he approved of it generally, though;
with respect to deals, he thought too great an
advantage had been given to the Americans. He
concluded by opposing the Amendment.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY could not refrain from ob-
serving that, looking at all the evidence, it
was wonderfully affected by self-interest. One
of the questions proposed was—" Is there any
debt due from Norway to the British merchants ?"
Yes, a large debt; and the Norwegians are
anxious to pyit in timber. In :hat answer there
was as much self-interest as in any other answer in
the evidence. Those lumbermen,to use the language
of the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury; were
a most valuable body of men ; but he did not
wish to sacrifice the interest of the public to
promote theirs, neither would he look entirely to
the interests of the consumer, without any regard
to that of the seller or importer.
[Here there was some interruption, in consequence of an
Honourable Member baying fainted.]
Sir M. W. RIDLEY resumed.—There -were
some purposes to which the Canada Timber was
more applicable than the Baltic, and .he there-
fore thought it would be worth while to consider
whether the effect of the proposition of the Right
Hon. Gent. (whose professed object was to pro-
cure Timber at the cheapest rate for the con-
sumer) would not be to drive the Canada Tim-
ber out of the market, and compel the consumer
to use Baltic Timber for purposes to which
it was not so well suited as American timber. In
his opinion, the proposition would have this effect,
and that a duty of ss. instead of 105. would he
productive of advantages to the consumer. The
Canada timber was not subject to dry rot in that
country, and that it was in thismust be attributed
to its being floated down the river, and imme-
diately shipped in that state, and deprived of the
free circulation of air ; but a small imposition
of duty might prevent this hurry in shipping it.
Looking to the interests of the consumer and
the Canada importers, nothing could be more
prejudicial than the proposed duty of ten shil-
lings,- which would render it impossible to con-
tinue the trade, the consequence of which would
be an injury to the general interests of the coun-
try. The ships employed in the British North
American trade, consumed annually about
300,0001. worth of the produce of Great Britain
and Ireland : but if the present proposition were
acceded to, the number of the ships would be di-
minished by one half, the effect of which would be,
a loss of 150,0001. annually to. Great Britain and
Ireland. As he had to choose between the -pro-
position and the amendment, he should, though
not approving of the proposition of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, support it in preference to the
amendment, because he thought it less injurious
to the shipping and the general interests of the
country.

Mr. SYKES also thought the proposition of the
Rt. lion. Gentleman would seriously affect the
Ship-owner, but he supported it because it was
less injurious than the amendment. He looked
at the interests of the Ship-owners as bound up
with the general interests of the country, and he
did not wish to give them advantages unconnected
with the general interest. Ile apprehended that

the necessary consequence of the proposition
would be the transfer of the American Trade to
Norway, which must seriously hurt the Ship-
' owners of this country. The American Timber
' Trade was carried on by British shipping, but.
' three-fourths of the Norway Timber Trade' was
' carried on by foreign ships, and the other quarter
by British. Even if all British ships were employed
in the Norway Trade, it would be carried on by
one-third of
,the number of ships employed in
the American. If this country wished to retain
her Colonies their produCe ought to be protected.
—He did not think the only object to be to
procure articles at the cheapest rate possible,
because if that were the object the Corn
Laws ought to be repealed, as Corn could be.,
purchased ,at Dantzic at 965. per quarter.—
[We regret that our limits prevent our giving a more ample
report of the Hon. Member's speech, which was replete with
sound argument, and strongly pointed out the intimate connec-
tion between the shipping interest, and the national welfare,
independence, and respectability.]
Lord ALTHORPE conceived the American Tim-
ber Trade not so beneficial to the inhabitants of
Canada as to the Ship-owners, because timber
was cut down in that country for the purpose of
clearing the land. He could not agree with the
amendment, because he thought as long as the
Colonial system was kept up, so long ought pro-
tection to be afforded, in such a degree as not to
dO more hurt than service to the subjects of this
country. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said,
that Norway being put upon the same footing
with Russia might give
.cause of complaint to the
latter.; but he coulckee nol..eason for complaint,
on the part of Russia, unless a greater duty were
triposed upon her- produce..than upon that of
Norway. The Right Hon: Gehtleman had said,
that what he (Lord A.) had proposed. on a for-
mer night would benefit Russia; because if the
article could not be procured from Norway, it
must come from Russia; but the Right lion.
Gentleman forgot that Prussia and Sweden might
enter into competition. He should on some fu-
ture occasion propose a graduating-scale of-duties,
but at present should do no more than, vote
against ,the amendment. .

Mr. F. itontNsoN observed, that the opinions
which had been expressed on this' question,were
widely diilerent, and the inference he drew. front.

, .
then' all was, that the proposition of hiS Right
lion. Friend was the best that could be adopted.
Our Colonies, he conceived, ought rather to be
considered 'aS an integral part of the kingdom,
than as an appendage having only a reniote in-
terest in common with the mother cotititry: As
to the 'shipping interest, he trusted Pai-liament
and the country would never be so'uncri-ateful as
to forget that to it we owed the glory of that navy
" Whose flag had brav'd a thousand year.
" The battle and the breeze.".
He denied. that either their interests, or those of
the North American Colonies, were compromised
by the proposition before the Committee. 'The
Right Honourable Gentleman defended the po-
licy of encouraging the importation of timber
from Canada, on the ground that a great quan-
tity of it was consumed at present in the manu-
facturing districts in making packing cases, and
in various other uses. With regard to the seCond
branch of the subject—the duty on Baltic tim-
ber—be thought the scale of duties proposed by
his Rt.Hon.Friend (Mr. Wallace) was thabest that
could be suggested. If long Norway deals were
to be excluded, by lowering the duty on short deals,
there would be no possibility of getting them
by any other means than by
,sawing, up, logs,
which would be a great inconvenience as well as
loss to the consumer. It was alleged that this
duty would have the effect of throwing all the
trade in deals into the hands of Russia; but
though the quantity of deals lately imported fuom
Norway had been greatly diminished, that did not
seem to have increased the importation from
Russia or Prussia; and since this effect had not
been produced by the former duty, there was no
reason to apprehend it from a new duty.
Mr. BARING said, the question before the
House was clearly one in which the British .Co-
lonies and the North of Europe were at issue.
Having attended to the evidence before the Corn,
mittee on this subject, he could say that it was
candid in almost every point. With respect to
the interest of the .consumer which ought to '
be considered, it was clear upon general princi-
ples of political economy,• that the best articles
in trade ought to be taken at the best price.
His Honourable Friend contended, that the
extent of the National Debt ought to lead
to a departure from sound principles of policy,.
and the reasons advanced, as an additional in-
'
ducement to the house to adopt that departure,
was the claims of the colonists and the ship-
ping interest to protection. He did not think the
inteiest of Canada was strongly supported by
the Timber Trade. Having formerly paid at-
tention to the settlements in America, and espe-
cially the province of Canada, he was enabled to
say, that of
.all public nuisances the lumbermen
.were the worst ; they led a dissolute life, and
proved a perpetual annoyance to the settlers. lie
denied' that the Colonies would be oppressed
by the proposed tax. The Timber Trade in
this country was unavoidably subject to duties
and restrictions. The best policy would be
to adopt the motion of his Hon. Friend. 'He
deprecated the system which led the Government
to keep sailors and :ships in the Canada Trade,
without profit and employment. To compel men
to go to Canada fortimber;when they could pro-
cure better nearer home, was carrying the sys-
tem of employment too far. The Hon. Member
confessed himself a friend to free trade, at the.
same-time he came to a conclusion that it was
safe to abide by the decision of the Committee,
who had bestowed some time and study on the
subject. lie therefore supported the:proposition
of the Right Hon.. Gentleman. .
Mr. RICARDO observed that the Committee
on Foreign Trade had laid down just prin-.
ciples, but produced aßeport at variance with all
those principles. No country was more forth/
nately placed with respect,to timber than this, for
the good timber was _tear us, and the bad.
was remote, and Duties and Acts of Parliament
were necessary to make us chuse the bad. The
Member for Shrewsbury had shown that the
country was taxed to the amount of four hun-
dred thousand pounds annually for the benefit
of the Ship-owners. For his own part, he would
rather agree to a direct tax to that amount, than
to such a motion as the present,
..for -the capital
granted to the ship-owners might in 'that caaa 'be
better employed. It had been said :that Nor::
way had her full portion of the trade. In dealS,
but what he maintained was, that the trade
should be, left perfectly free. The House had
nothing to do with the shipping interests, or
with the colonial trade, or with any interest
but that of the consumer, which was always the
public interest. It was right that the people
of England should have a power to purchase
every thing where it could be bad on the cheap-.
est terms, and to employ themselves in that trade
which was most to their advantage. It had been
said, that if we imported deals from Norway,
she could not take our manufactures, but that
was of no importance; our object*was to get
deals cheap, and there we could get them. An-
other.argument was, that in case of a quarrel
with the Baltic, they might refuseto supply us,
and therefore we should not destroy the :Cana-
dian trade ; but the wood must still con-
tinue to grow in .America, and from. thence
we . could have it at the • high price,
whenever circumstances reduced us to the
alternative. He (Mr. Ricardo) -expected, On
the present occasion, the support or the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade. The Right Hon.
Gentleman said, that if we were beginninga, a
new system, a different principle_ from that'of the
present might be acted on. NOw he (Mr. Ri-
cardo) conceived that we were only beg!nning
the trade—that we were perfectly unfettered; for
the Report stated that this country was uncler no en,
gagemen t with America, and was therefOre at liber-
ty to pursue the course most profitaLle to itself.
Mr. MAIuiATT—I have listened with great
attention to the diScussion before the Committee,
and more particularly. to the doctrines of our new
school of political economists; but must cOnfeSS
that they have :Produced very little conviction
on my mind.. hitherto ships, colonies, and.con9,,
merce:have been, considered as inseparably
sleeted with each other ; but, according to the
new. system, 'we,are to sacrifice. our ships and
colonies, ih
„older that our commerce may
go on the:, better without them.- lYhenever

these philosophers will illustrate their theory
by experimental proof; if, for example,
they wilt take off two legs from a threeAeg-
ged stool, .and make .it stzind on.-Abe remaining
one leg more firmly_ than it •before'did on _all the
three, then, but not tilt then; will I. become one
of their disciples. Our trade with our own Colo-
nies and in our own ships; we can always Call
our own, beeatise we hold it independent of
the will of foreign Powers ; but in twisting
to a trade with foreign nations we are
leaning on a broken reed. Have we already
forgotten the Continental System, which last
war cut us off from all CommunicatiOn 'with every
port in Europe ; and the Non-intercourse and
Non-importation Acts of .the Government of the
United States, 'which excluded us from all Ame-
rica ? Or do we flatter ourselves' that what has
been, may not again be?. if so, we reason in op-
position to experience and the evidence of facts,
and to the true rule of jiidging of the future by
the past. Have we any reason to believe that
the. jealousy expressed by foreign powers of our
commercial greatness, which they envy, and of our
naval power, which they dread, is at all abated? On
the contrary, has not increased cause of dissatisfac-
tion been recently given on' our part, to the great
European Potentates, by our declaration to every
foreign court, that the principles laid down and act-
ed upon in their attack upon Naples, are repugnant
to the fundamental principles of the British Con-
stitution ? It seems impossible that ptir good un-
derstanding with these Powers can long continue,
unless they adopt our notions of Government, or
we adopt.theirs, events neither of which are very
likely to happen. With such prospects before us,
we are called upon, in defiance of every principle of
sound policy, and with total disregard to the main-
tenet-lee of our maritime greatness, to abandon a do-
lonia' trade in British ships,in order to encourage a
fdreign trade in foreign ships, and are desired to
trust to the liberality of foreign powers for cor-
respondent advantages in return, as if history
was filled with examples of national gratitude ;
though if such there are they have escaped all
my researches, while examples of the ingrati-
tude of nations, for whom we have expended our
blood and treasure, abound almost in every page.
In order to put us out of conceit with our naviga-
tion laws, we are told that we have not grown
great from our, restrictive system, but in spite of
it. This is a perversion of argument. The
prosperity of every nation depends upon the wis-
dom of its political institutions. Our navigation
system has been so long established, that its
effects have had •ample time to show themselves.
Had they been bad, our commerce would long
ago have been ruined ; but, as they have been
good, we have prospered under them, and have
risen to the greatest height of commercial pros-
perity and naval power that ever was attain-
ed by •any nation. To argue otherwise, is
to deny the 'existence of cause and effect ;
to shut out the light of experience, and the evi-
dence Of facts ; and to contradict the highest au-
ho rities amongst writers on political economy.
Dr. Adam Smith, speaking of the Act of Navi-
gation, says, ." although some of 'the provisions
of this famous Act, (as he emphatically terms
it;) probably originated in a spirit of na-
tional animosity. yet they are all_ as wise
as if they had been dictated by the most
deliberate -.wisdom ;" and, in a subsequent
passage, he-adds,. 44. that as defence is of more
importance than opulence, the Act of Navi-
gation "is" perhaps, after all, the wisest of
all the . commercial regulations of England."
Another high authority on political subjects, one
of our own Members; in a treatise on Colonial po-
licy that he published some years ago, after agree-
ing .with Dr. Smith that ou'r navigation law is
not favourable. either to the extent of fo-
reign commerce, or to the growth of that opu-
lence which arises out of it, concludes by saying,
that " it. is now known only by its good effects."
This nation now labours under great pressure,
and men who suffer are apt to; spew' their impa-
tience by readily listening to any proposal for
a change, without considering whether that
change- may not be from bad to. worse ; let
us act a wiser part, and 'riot Mistake the• source
of. all the- prosperity and greatness that yet re-
mains to' us, for the • cause of the difficulties
Under which -we'- labour, or we shall aggravate
them 'till they'' become insupportable, and_ren-
der them irretrievable.--.—Let us not cut away the
sheet anchor, which will enable•the vessel to ride
out the gale in safety, and leave her-to drift a

random among the rocks and breakers with which
she is surrounded. Having said thus much on
general principles, I shall now advert to the par-
ticular points before the Committee. The motion
of the Hon. Baronet who began this debate,
appears-to have received so little cuantenance,
that I shall pass it over without any observations.
The motion of tho Noble Lord I shall oppose,
because it -gives additional advantages to the
Northern Powers over the. British Provinces in
North America. Great Britain adopts various
rules in reo-ulatitr her duties on different cOmmo-
_

(:ities. Some .pay by weight, some by measure,
some by tale, and same ad valorem.. Deals have
always paid by tale, and the Noble Lord
would now assess them in their cubical contents.

This I object to, in the first plaee, because any
sudden or yiolent alteratiori of a long established
system is always attended with great injury to
the interest of individuals, and therefore oright
only to be adopted for very strong and urgent
reasons. In the next place, the avowed 'Object
is to benefit Norway, who already enjoys more
then her share of the deal trade; for her import,
on an average of the four Years 1816,1817,181 K,
and-1:819, was 13,000 out of -1.0,000. load's, being
more than that of iink of the' Northi.4ti Powers,
While th4t of .the. British Colonies was only 5,500.
—The scale of .41utTes proposed in the schedule
lowers the duty on•'Norwar-Acals 1/.155.
and' raises'tfihton Crinada:A.L.ls' per load ;
considerable disadvantage to. Canada, Which, if
increased, would driv.e .116i' deals out of the
market altogether.,,;,and,. therefore, of two.
evils, I shall choose' the leasL'. The .conti-

guity of NorwalyWAlriVcountry
,gives her a greai
advantage, over „the
.other‘',,Northern PowerS
the small size- of 11'0.177 deals is a disadvantage,
according 'l6 our mode 'of, levying the duty
by talc; but I •coutend that we bave no-

thing to do with these considerations. Ozi
the same grounds we might be called upon
to make endlesS alterations ifi our eizi3G
lag system. For instance, oranges pay duty
by tale ; ..and-- the rinhabitants:,..of, the
tern Islands Might as reasonably complain that
their small oranges pay as much duty per thou:
sand as the large 'Oranges from Portugal; and
requestthat in future theyssheuld all be measured.,
and. the duty taken according to their cubical con
tents, as the Norwegian's make this apFilitiatitni
with respect' to their deals. This- .priacipla
applies to a • great- nuniber of other articles,,
and Wont(' lead to endlesS ren:oustrances and.
difficulties. I persist in the intention oF
which I gave notice, of Moving arr.-Amend:
meat to the schedule before • -the, • Coea-.
mittee, by opposing the intended. reduction in.
the duty, on Baltic Timber. Ido this in 'con-
formity to the evidence given before ibe Com:.
mittee on Foreign Trade, which uniformly
states, that this reduction will be attenci.24
with no advantage to the British • con.
smiler, but lead to an immediate advanCe in the
price of the timber abroad ; and some of Them de-
clare, that-such an advance has already takia
place in anticipation. Now, I am; not for.sa,
crificing British revenue for the benefit. of:
reigners, and am much mistaken if tiid•Citcta,
cellor of the -Exchequer has any, sparse,
duty so to give. away, under present- eircuot.
stances. The great preponderance of the evi.,
dence also proves that a duty of 10 shillings; per .
load on timber from the British 'Colonies in
North America is as much as The trade can bear ;
and that a reduction of 10 shillings from the,.
Bahia timber at the same 'time be going:,
much too far. This is the opinion of ten wit,-„
nesses; only four think differently;
sand four
others are against any alteration whatever. I
have two sheets of extracts from their evidence,
but content myself with giving this abstract of
it, rather than occupy the time of ,the Coat-
mittee by reading it at length. One of them asks
where any duty is to come .from ? the load of
timber, which costs 18 shillings in America, pro-
ducing only five shillings here ; and the freight
being so low, from the distress of the Ship-
owners, that they lose money by every voyager
These considerations will, I trust, induce the
Committee to support me in this amendment.
Before I sit down, I wish to notice. one or
two observations that have been made in, the
course of this debate. The Hon. 711 ember for
Shrewsbury reproaches those who advocate the
cause of the Ship-owners with supporting a
bad trade carried on in bad ships ; and they.
have also been called rotten ships.. In order to
shew how far they merit these epithet's, I have
examined •Lkyd's register-book, and -find that
of 434 ships that -arrived from Quebec last year,
183 are of the very first class, standing letter A;
249 are of the second class, -letter E, (vessels. fit
to carry any cargo to any. part of the 'world)-
and only two stand the third letter, Titg
truth is, that- we have now no rotten ships, and
very few old ships; because, as even good ships
cannot all find employment, the had can of course
expect none, and therefore' are broken up much
sooner than usual. For this reason the ship-
ping in use at the present moment is of a su-
perior description to what it was at any for•
mer period. The Right lion. Gentleman. WhO
proposed these Resolutions . stated on a former
occasion that we had a -great number of super-
fluens seamen. The data on which he reasoned
are just, but the conclusions he drew from them
were erroneous. lie argued frOm the compara7
tive tonnage of British shippinur In' the year
179'2 and 1820, but did not consicai that in 1792
every ship was manned and employed,.. but that
at present great nUmbers are not employed, and
Consequently not manned, for which hesivade no
allowance in his estimate. I greatly doubt -whe-
ther wet have a single British seaman more now
than we had in the year 179'2, and think it int--
portant to explain this point.
Mr. T. WiLsoN rose to cor •zt a rmsappre.
!tension under Which the Honourable )Iculber for
Shrewsbury laboured. He could assure the Hon.
Gentleman, that though he had an intereSt. iii
the subject, yet he was as independent as any
Member in the Ilouse. He contended, that,the
view taken \of the subject by the two lionotir-
able Baronets opposite, was the true,-view .of
the subject. Ile could notagree with. the,Mem-
ber for Portarlington„ that it was -a matter of in-
difference *whether the return for foreign timber
Was Made' in goods or specie. -lie had , livdd
long enough to know that a bird
,in hands was
worth two in the bush, and he should feel dis.-
posed to trade with a country which would take
his own- goods in exchange, rather than demand
it in specie.
. .
Mr. F. !Awls supported the A-mendstient.' •
Mr. WALF.AcE replied very bAefiy...
Mr. J. P. • GRANT gave notice, that when
the Report was brought up, he would move 'that
it .should be re-committed, for the purp(:Ae ()Is
we finilerstoOd) of taking into consid•eiation„ the ,
propriety .of fixing a duty of 3/. ss. ons
deals, to.be calculated cubically, and on Canada
deals 10s. Or 15s.

Mr. WALLACE wished the lion,
move his Atoe'n:lment..'

Mr. J.- P. GRA.4..cr, said, be was ready to'ed.so
now ;_ but be mders.tdod the forms of the Boise
would not permit him.

Whilst Stratigers were withdrawni ~we under-
stand Ihejlvise divided .four
FIRST—On Lord A Ithart...s 'niont in favour of ti4Or-
way Deal.:—

, ;7 - - 24
Noes _• •N,-
'Alajoriti for 0:e
;EcoNn—On 111Ftrryittt's :: 7-taingt featloing
the Duty on Foreign 'Ember :
Ayes - - - - 17
Noes - • - - - - 71

• . . enr ljeseintion
!i•aey's Metinn' A 9 reduce tile
posed Dtftys r.*:ibr..'r f:oln to 10?..d ;
and to take ofr or: irud fl • .1 the Fo:eign Duty
Ayes - - . - - - - 1.5

Noes

• iajority for th:, • 1:;• Res' 1;;on
For r, T il-LOn 'Sir Henry Parnell's .3-ibtitriAr equalize all the
I)tities et the cad of five years—
Ayes - - - 15

---riS,

Noes - - •
Majority for the original Res6iiii.uin
:The other Orders of the Dgyi.ere then (Es-
,
posed °food theilouseatljoVenelG I'wo.o7cLocK.