The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-25 00:00:00

[DEBATE OF FRIDAY NIGHT.]

COMMITTEE OE SUPPLY—AUSTRIAN LOAN.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the Day for the [Tolls:. to resolve itself into a Commit-
tee of Supply.—On the question being put, -
Mr. It. SMITH (of Bucks) rose to make his promised mo--
tion concerning the Austrian Loan. His motion, he said, was
for a Copy of a Disnatch alluded to in the Dispatekof Lord
Stewart of the sth of November, lBlB, _ containing the reason,
ings of Prince Metternich and Count Stadion, on the subject of
the Austrian Loan. In 1795 and 1797 the Government of
Great Britain advanced sums of money to the Government of
Austria, which that Government now asserts were in the nature
of a subsidy and not as a loan. Undoubtedly it never was so
• considered by Great Britain. At the thne the loan was made
Mr. Pitt said, that it was a transactien comideted in the face
of Europe;' and the good faith of Austria could, not be doubted
because justice as well as policy would induce her to observe
her engagements, as a breach of faith -on her part would be
fatal to her interests as well as her character. Mr. Pitt' went
further, he declared the gratification he felt at concluding a bar-.
gain so favourable in a financial point of view to this country.—
Lord Grenville' in his correspondence with Lord Henley,
afrongly urged the claim of Great Britain on Austria; and the
Noble Lord (Loßdonderry), in the course of the present Session,
412clared that debt to be uncancelled and undhninished. Why,
then, for what secret cause were. the people of this country
obliged to pay the interest for so long a period, of six millions of
money, and to suffer a loss on the entire of 21 millions and a

-•., • r -
half? Of -the existence of the aebt. rig doubt 0.-dst,a. The
HilbuSe Was aware that two Conventions Were signed at Vienna
+etween Great Britain airlAtiStrih:,- the • first dated the sth of
nay, 1795; the second, the Ifithof May, 1797. House was
also aware that every'article irethoiet,.yo INeaties had been vio-
lated by the Austriaa..Government. In the year 1318, the
vernment of this confab, made an Ciffsm to Austria, to taketrm,
her for shipping for a part of the debt.. With that °Tex Austria.
' refused to comply, instead of acceding to it. She altogether de-
, nied the existence of the debt—The Hon.. Gentleman next ad-
verted to the,very distressed state of the country, and the heavy
pressure of taxation. The Honourable Member for Sussex had
very candidly stated that things should remain in their present
state. The farmers were all but ruined ; so desperate, indeed,
were the financial embarrassments of the country, that some
Gentlemen suggested the propriety of reducing the interest
of the Public Debt.. They thought the common welfare
would be best consulted by , running a risk •bf- dtstroy-
ing the public credit—that credit which Mr. Sheridan
called the terror of one enemies—the blobd arid marrow
of the country, deprived of which she would appear in -the
eyes of Europe, not as . a lifeless body, but a helpless in-
significant trunk. In the desperate state of the country, the
people at least had a right to demand an inquiry—they had a
right to know why 21 millions of their money should be with-
held by a Government which had gained so much by the
late war. Whilst the finances of Great Britain exhibited so me-
lancholy a prospect, those of Austria were in a flourishing con-
dition. Austria had paid off not only her old debt, but a great
part of the new. The Emperor of Austria was possessed of
more personal fortune than any Sovereign in Europe. his
Italian provinces broughtin a revenue of eight millions. So
strong indeed were the finances of Austria, that she was enabled
to go to war against Naples, as a volunteer,
.unealleilfbr by any
aggression on her Government, and merely to preserve the pre-.
tensions of legitimacy in opposition to the feelings and the
liberties of the people. 'The Honourable Gentleman next
alluded to the decided conduct of Lord - Grenville respect-
ing this transaction. That Noble Lord felt that the national
honour was compromised by ' the" refusal of Austria to, ac-
knowledge her solemn engagements made with this country.
So decided was the conduct of Lard Grenville,,, so marked his
disapprobation of the want of faith and honour, that he had
nearly prevented the second coalition against France. The
Noble Lord (Londonderry) had placed Austria in this situation
—he had put upon the Table of that House papers, from which
it manifestly appeared that she owed this country a sum of up-
wards of 21 millions—no doubt remained of the fact.. He '
called then upon the Noble Lord to state why Austria objected
in limine to acknowledge the debt ; and whether the people of
England were quietly and meanly to submit at once to a loss and
to an insult ? Ha could not believe that the power which stood
foremost in the Holy Alliance could be guilty of conduct whieh,
in common life, would be called by the name of swindling. The
Hon. Gentleman concluded with moving for a Copy.of the Dis-
patch of the Honourable Gordon, alluded .to.in the
Dispatch of Lord Stewart, dated the sth of November, 1818,
and containing the reasoning of Prince Metternich and Count
Stadion on the subject of the Debt due by Austria to this coun-
try by virtue of the Treaties of 1795. and 1707.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY observed, though
the Hon. Gentleman had entered into the general question of
the Austrian Loan, yet, as he had not concluded with a motion
which embraced the general question, the Ilouse would, he
thought, excuse him in abstaining from the merits involved in-
that consideration. If he yeas disposed to contend that the Debt
was cancelled, or was ready to compromise it in any manner,
then the Honourable Gentleman would have a fair claim for
calling on the Government to shew upon what grounds they
were prepared to do so. But that was not the way in which he
regarded the transaction. He certainly would be guilty of de-
ceiving the House, if he represented the Debt as assets in our
possession ; for, if we were to take the whole concern into our
own hands, it would scarcely amount to the sum. He still re-
garded it as a debt due by Austria, and was satisfied that that
Power would stand ill in the opinion of all other Powers, if she
refused to regard it as a debt, until she received a quietus from '
this country. At all events, the question would not be placed
in a better state for negociation' after the decision of that House.
If the Correspondence was produced, the Hon. Gentleman might
be disposed to give an importance to -the arguments of Count
Metternich, which Ministers might deny; and, therefore, lie
thought, the best course would be to leave them to the discretion
of those who were responsible. When a country was disposed
not to do a thing, the old and established course was to find out
the best reasons it could for not doing it. . . . .

Mr. WA RRE expressed his satisfaction at the admission of
the Noble Lord, that the sum due was a loan and not a subsidy.
The Noble Lord had said, that if we took the whole concern
into our hands we should not be greatly benefited—meaning; he
supposed, that if we had the whole of the Austrian Treasury
we should not find the sum. With respect to a compromise, all
that could be said of the disposition of Austria was, that when
we asked for ship timber they told us we should not have a
single stick. The House was indebted to the Mover of the
question, which he considered one of great importance ; and it
was impossible that any person could go through the Papers
without imbibing a very bad opinion of the Austrian faith. He
did not understand that part of the Noble Lord's speech which
alluded to the imprudence of producing those Papers, and wished
to know whether the House was to concclude that a negociation
was now going on ?
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that no negocia-
tion was at present going on.
Mr. WARD said, that he agreed with the Honourable Gen-
tleman that last sat down, in thinking that the Honourable NI over
was entitled to the thanks of the House, and of the country, for
agitating this question. • A vast sum of money was owing to us
from a Foreign State. In the present embarrassed state of our
finances, when retrenchment on the one hand and taxation on
the other had been carried to their utmost limits, it was the
duty of the House to inquire what chance we had of recovering
it. A small part of such an enormous debt, if repaid, would
afford considerable relief', and still greater satisfaction to the
people of England. Ile could not, however, agree with' his
Honourable Friend in pressing for the production of the dis-
patch to which he referred. The Noble Secretary of State had
assured them that it would be prejudicial to the progress of the
negociation, and he (Mr. (yard) could easily conceive in what
manner. Suppose for instance, the Austrian Government to
have insisted upon certain principles, from which there might
be still some hope that they might recede, how much more dif-
fiult that retractation weadd be rendered after they had been pub-
lished in the face of all Eitope. He felt it difficult to under-
stand on what points the negociation could turn.—lf Austria
denied the obligation, never was there a more open and scan-
dalous breach of faith. If she stood upon the plea of inability,
the question no doubt assumed a different aspect. The fin-
ances of all despotic Governments, more especially those of
Austria, are enveloped in an obscurity which no eye can pene-
trate. The grand principles -by which they seemed to be go-
' verned were concealment and irresponsibility; but-though the
nature of the case did not admit of complete proof, there were
circumstances 'that made one suspect that-Austria was by no
means so little -able to discharge her obligations as shd would
pretend; not, indeed, to pay so vast a sum in one year, or in
two years; or in three, for as the Noble Marquess had 1-4nted,
so much money was
.probably not to be found in all the country,
but to put it in a train of gradual liquidation. AUstria was a
country of great natural resources, which were continually rising
up in spite of that ancient and venerable system of maladminis-
tration that was so dear to the Princes and Statesmen of the
Imperial House. It was true, that during all the early part of
the struggle with France her efforts had been very great, but it
was equally true, that for some years before the fall of the Em-
peror Napoleon, she had enjoyed complete repose under the
shadow of his protection—years, to us of the heaviest expence,
and most exhausting exertion. .The two last wars in which she
had been engaged were but short, and at the peace, by which
England gained immense glory, but Was content to forego
selfish objects ; the Emperor, who had gained no glory at all,
was compensated by more solid advantages. Never was la-
bourer of the eleventh hour so richly repaid. He was placed
not only on an equal footing with those that had borne the toil
and heat of the day, but on a far superior one. He might, in-
deeti, justly say, that the sacrifices lie had made on the side of
feeling and character, were such as entitled him to a- liberal
equivalent on that of interest. He had violated the most solemn
public engagements; he had broken asunder the closest domes-
tic ties—he had degraded hisgrandson—he had made his daugh-
ter a widow, by condemning his son-in-law to perpetual exile
and imprisonment—apunishmentdue,perhaps,to the guilty am-
bition of that great disturber of mankind—just from Russia—
just from Prussia—just from England, but from Austria, alto-
gether 'cruel, perfidious, and wicked. For these deeds his Impe-
rial Majesty had received Dalmatia, the Tyrol, Soltsburgh, all
Lombardy, and all the Venetian States—some of the finest and
richest provinces—some of the noblest and most famous cities in
all Europe, and from these he had never ceased to draw money - to
the capital of what is ironically called his paternal government, by
every art and every severity of fiscal exaction. The case, indeed,
will be widely different if Austria could' say, " true it is, that
these are rich and . fertile countries, but we have not taxed them
to the utmost—we have purposely spared them—we are desir-
ous to conciliate. the affections of the people, and to contrast the
mildness of our Government with the seventy of the French
despotism that preceded it. But, in fact she had sacrificed
, every thing to pelf—money had been the only object of ter
Government--under her iron rule, no ease, no prosperity could
be enjoyed. When the fertile soil of those fertile countries
poured forth its immense produce, the condition of the inhabi-
tants was not improved by it. For then, ton, came the Austrian
extortioner to stand betwixt them and the bounty of nature and
Providence, and to demand for his master the whole difference
betwixt famine and plenty. And then were we to believe
that the Emperor had not a single florin in his treasury to repay
to the suffering people of England money advanced, in order
to save blui from being hurled from his Throne by the

The Paris Papers of Thursday furnish no ad-
ditional particulars respecting the actual state of
affairs within the Ottoman empire, but it would

seem the most revolting excesses continue to be
practised against the Greeks, and all who are
supposed to favour their cause. The following