The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-21 00:00:00

PENSIONS' ACT.-PERSONAL DISPUTES.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EX-
CHEQUER, the Order of the Day for the Second Read-

ing of the Pensions' Act Amendment Bill Was , read, and.,
the Right Hon. Gentleman moved the Second Reading 'of
.the Bill.
Sir RONALD FERGUSSON then ,rose, and, spoke,
somewhat as follows; Isut the Hon. Baronet was not at all
times thoroughly audible :—The last time that 'this. -Subject
was discussed, sonic Objections-were 'made to the measure,
and the conversation which had then taken place, had been
sent forth to the Public in 'a more.' authentic forme than
usual; and in that report ,Motives were'-attributed to the:
mincirltj, whi,di they did' nOti•feel; -Mul,theY were treated.
very indeearouily:, ( War. Veisori 'can have more
respect for:the Hon. Member for -Limerick than I have ;.
and if in the observation which I have to make, I should'
say anything derogatory to that respect, 1 shall be very
sorry. if that Report, which was promulgated not in the
common way, proceeded from himself; it will he so much
the more authentic ; and I shall be sorry if I cannot dis-
claim it to this House. The Hon. Member' bas imputed
motives to the Minority, attributing to one class of them,
what, in his _opinion, is the foolish idea of the finances
of the country not allowin,* the grant ; and to the
other part of the-Minority,: he -attribute's' mere peraunal
motives for their 'opposition. I do not know to which
class 'I am disposed to -belong ; but I can say, Sir,
candidly, that I gave my vote With a tlear :conscience,'
and. with, au honest conviction, which I am prepared
to support. It is, in my opinion improper in anybody
to attribute motives to Members-----(hear, hear !)
and Gel forbid that I shmild attribute motives to any
person, in relation to any vote which he may give here ;
but I will say,- that if Tam called upon to give my.rea-
*sons for my vote, though I wish to make declarations cop-,
cerning uo Gentlemen, much less to refer to the character
of individuals, which I wish not to seebrOught into ones-

Ia l Ili
1.
always
Like_-
respect to
dteotiiscoluedlsley.vohttene
...
thin, either by me or any one else, I will state those. rea-
sons openly and honestly. The least thing which I cam
wish is to see the dead, treated' with contumely; hut, at
the same time, if I am urged on by attacks' made oil my
motives), if I am to be taunted into it, I will: take an op.:
portunity of -stating why I gave my vote. ' I aid only an
humble man, but' I 'can say that .1 gave my vote con_
scientiously. aunt honettly. ,If I had . not been attacked,
with: the rest of the minority, When they there not present
in, the House—(Cries of No, 'p
0 ! )-1 understood very few
nc:thein; were present,--Ishorild not now have adverted to
-
1 Ate,aulajeet.; ~ This, the7.llousb ;wilt redone& ttiolcipllde -al
the Wednesdant-,and the attatment tc Whichl allibled .did
_pat come befOre tho public tilt Friday ; 'but. forrwhich .1
Jihould not have said otieavMst outthe .insbjee,t.' With res.
spect trt-the Hon..Membe foil Aliardeen,Tal Horli"rjead.-
4nd the Noble Lord who had spoken on, this subject with
the grant 'to the late Mr), Carining-A
very manly and honest feelings,:. and siaid he would support
osfyi7ildu not ae- reasonHn' Aati.el Ilyethiershfoourld b b it:it
vote
i:esti evni
th;he
that,had
hint.
him, I have a' great respect for Mr...Cunning's talents;
but, after the severe remarks made, I found it necessary
to vindicate myself;. and I must again assert, that my
motives were pure and disinterested for the vote which I
gave.--(Cheets• )
Air. SPRING RICE said, if I hesitate in addressing a
fewwords to the House, it is because there. are :other Gen-
tlemen, perhaps not belonging to the class of my Hon,
and Gallant Friend,• who may also wish to Make' some Ob-
servations, and who.may take some objections to what fell
from aie ; though I hope I shall be able to -shoSit.that it
miscouceptionlas arisen from some tials-statement, or from
some misairpreheosion.. • But before 1.. reply, it will be
_mere regular' that I:should hear what are these objections,
so that I may not reply first to one Gentleman, and then
on some other ground to another ; and if so utterly unim-
portantclaims
to'and e insignificantatte ntio
attention
of
i the a
House, asl
111 oapnel ; theca nHlol have
ee
willan
I hear what I have to say. As it is likely' some. other Gen-
' •
Gen-
tlemen may have some observations to make, I shall reserve
myself till after those observations are, Made.
Mr. LEGH KECK supposed he was one of, the. Gentle-
men alluded to by the Hon. Member, :and he had a few
observations which he thought his duty to himself and the
House required him to make. ' Certain suspicions had been
thrown on the motives of other Members of Parliament,
which he disclaimed. During the long period which he had
sat in.the House, and discharged his duties as an indepen-
dent Member of Parliament, at- no period had lie imputed
hie decided admis 1
motive's to individuals,..or said,' with
they had given, that-they had acted improperly. - . If' tueortee
were any ground for imputation against him for the' v
he had given, he was ready to vindicate' that vote ;
and he. had never given a vote in that
was not prepared' to vindicate. Called on as h.e. had. leer
to vindicate himself; he would do so; .for he telt it was a
painful—unavoidable duty. He would . preface what he
rhadatiottto
ofsay
,slitry
candeclaringning ;h iasnudnheqe
admit that he possessed all :those amiable qualir.ies his
friends assigned him. .. From a very early Perk) :.., of his i
political life, and through -a .very long period, he h: i beheld
that Statesmen's conduct ,with satisfaction ; 'ancl he felt i
as much admiration as any Wan of his splendid e! quence.
But as a public inau—and it was: only as a puaiic man
ha
spoke of him--however much he might hart admired
.•..- . . .. . .., :, •
unequivocal,
re'a.d.y.

Mr. Canning's conduct in early life, lie was not able to
bestow the S1111f; admiration on its latter part. This he
',./ao ready to avosts.ssrfie was astonished that any man
,shoSid say of a Member Of Parliament, acting in the dis-
charge efifia duty, that he acted from motives which, not
only were the assetrion correct, would imply that he was
unfit to discharge his duty in that House, but also that he
!is,elit to be excluded from the society of gentlemen.—
(Hear, hear:)—lle did not know how to explain himself
without adverting to the report, and the terms of it,
which, as the Honourable and Gallant General who spoke
,fyelOye lion, had justly remarked; seemed to be promulgated
by authority.. It was-not for him to refer sir these only
iheatis he had of knOwing what had occurred -in that
lisins:c ; but it did so happen that lie had not seen the '.
statentent alltided to until Saturday. If he were allowed,
he would refer to that statement. In the early part of
that report, there were only some slight allusions, but
the part of which he, spoke was this [here the Hon.
Member read the following passage from a More full -re-
volt of Mr. Spring Race's speech in the ,House of Com-
mons on Wednesday' evening last, than appeared- in the
Morning Paper's of Thursday, and which' was published
in the Tunes of last Friday]
"Me considered the present likely to lie the-only oppor-
tunity Elias Would present itself, for he could scarcely ima:'
gine, it possible that the opposition, so singular in its cha-
racter, could be 'conflated ; and lie anticipated that the •
Bill in its further : progress would meet the ummimouseps:
The opposition to this Bill would have astonished
cporournatrlyo.f the House, es it undoubtedly would that of the
hini anywhere ; but in the House of Commons—the thee-
tie of Mr. Cant itig'e exertions—the field in which his
genius displayed itsen and where, during the present Ses-
sion, men of all parties-hers.' felt the miserable blank wade
by his loss ; that in this House tur objection should have
been made to a grant like this, was to him a matter of asto-
eweaer°rnarite
nishment, to use no stronger word. But he wished to dis-
tinguish' the two classes of whom the opponents to tbia
measurehaps
thinkco u consisted.
themselves
vTe
sh
however deserved, if they considered that the finOcee.,l9 he
country would not 'afford such expenditure. In s.:-
..,
could not concur} for he'could not admit that England rya'
in a position in which' the reward of eminent seryiceo In"!
be reffieed. Let it not be said, that military glory lea
ifisizinefr money:in, waiig,h. tstfpaitelr: i
death in action were the only events that could call forth
and justify national gratitude, Civil worth, -if eminent,
belonged to as high a class of exertions, and men tnightdic'
as Mr. Canning did—for their country, without falling bY
the sword. . But, there were economists of another 800°1
who objected to this .
,cote—economists of good feeling"; •
'parsons whowished tti` apply retrenchment tosympathY se
!;ratitude, :and who mere:desirous of reducing all gener°"9
and honourable iitmulseT with them he would hold:"
communion, 'and of-them was the minority chiefly eon'.
posed—discontented agriculturists, who revenged thee!"
selves for: the' orn Bill by their vote, and who marked tbri:
disapproval of Mr. Canning's liberal policy by denying Ul4
pittance to his'cliildren."
le ice's
• [Several passages:of this extract of Mr. Spring e--
speech were cheered, as the Hen. Member read them.]
_.,..,
Mr. LEGH KE:cli then continued:.-He quite 4=7
. with that:Gentleman as to the state of our. fiaana'.
Happily the finances. of- the country were not. so fat re:
. dueed, that the country could not duly reward entinea.;
public services. The Parliament was not only still enable' ''
to do so, but the country -required that it should be df'°e'
As to the other. ecele of economy to which allusion "cogs
made, he knew not tol:plied made the allegation. 'lle this
.not the individual, and he knew not the individuals oP°
were,included in the condemnation of the Hon. Menlo!'
He was not one of those who felt themselves aggrieved of
this part of the Hon. Member's statements, end' he 'did not
apply them to himself. The only gratification he feit at,
bringing the subject ;tote the House was derived from hip
having that morning r eived a communication from an
Hon. Friend Of hi's, to whom it had been communicated
bTehrod did
onno. t
Member,ilchrlehihine (fehlitro.
sLsnergehd
,Kieen
tko)n
din
edh insoetthainteg
by the Hon. Member' tin. Limerick, that that Hon. l‘fein-
nsr but
the terms were general,
.and he could not sanction goyY
sweeping and grievous condemnation, like that of the 1011'
:bth‘isuei iago:l ni
ot,
Member. :There were
,a, few individuals who, in. the di'-'
charge of their duty, would he precluded by such language':
from. sometimes addressing the House. He did not dein,
to be `possessed :of the
_strongest nerves; but during
the number of yezok 'which lie had sat in that Ifou'e''
he bad .witnessed too often, and he thought he. "las: ,
called on 'by ia. sense
.of duty to mention'
Members 'were 'deterred from addressing the House, vib_°''.'
would otherwise have addressed it with great pfoprieti_T, bY. ,4''
.
the tone Of intimidatimroishich was too frequentlyadOwli L'-i'
(Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member for Limerick Wea -'ir..l r.
allow him, he wduldiarthat such a tone wail ntitabl"!'
prevalent in that aPeech Cof his to which he was alltolinf t''"
and there was' ten' riiiieliof that intimidation about It,.
which, in 'his opiniOt4, it 'vas not satisfactory fort' thitiewe •
'to' hear: The Housiessvistrld then allow hirn to etate •the ' :
masons why he had kivefi 'his vote on a former' 'evening.
'He had given it becauSe he. did not conceive, from 'tile Parr' -
Mr. Canning had latterly taken, that he had s'uch- en un- ..'
compromising claim ti-bis admiration as at the previn°
period of his political life. He regretted this, but it ton: .
his sincere opinion.—(Hear, hear.) He was not induce'`";'
to give his vote from economy nor from any base anaedises.
honest motive. It was due, he thought, in considering the '
merits of Mr.' Canning, nisi, to consider the circumstances
'of the Comitry ; and'einasidering these things, he decitrtd' -
he had dissented frOM the proposition. These were the
it, that, IA
plain, undisguised 'oPinions, on which he had given his
vote. ' He had never concealed the grounds of his decision ;
.and however painful it was for him to declare them, under' :
the circumstances of the case he was bound to do so. As
be had now acted, so-`he should act on another siraiLar
occasion, though if *add he, as on this, with - OW' ea'
regret. The Hon: Member concluded by apolOgieink f7dr..
addressing the House,' and said, he hoped , he' ' sli°u . •
' iiiiliir
never again be called on to address them under's.
-
circumstances. - - . • , _
, Mr. S. RICE thanked the Hon. Member sliw the e''',77
her in vs,Aich he had ,made his statement, and should, he
hoped, satisfactorily reply
,to his observations. And first,' -
he must express his regret; that any thing he might have
said should have been mixed up with a'squestion of this de-
licacy and personal' interest. He wished that any .ofanci,n34l
Gentleman,' hieing: any: Objection to make to holy: ',he els:
made it to himself ahmeoeithout mixing it up with. "
discussion of strehu queition as this. If there had beo 70-1
'any 'Mame' in. the 'affairy Ht should rest exclusively '411,4427 „5e:1413,g
tirely on- him, anal not, attach to the question trethl:le tu7 ‘„ 16 <l,
.Ilimie. :There Might''. be Some irregularity in: the. Int",:,;;Jb '4l `v-
iubheroeesitd‘hg:fht,duilpisdltii:,;C:feflitotlir.„,ocge;:citusenntp;,tatireynhveeetdnh,ne
httbheeseocatsuiamguidhsoentie,yhvaeif-agetiir7,,;;o;d::::::n..:,:
isee.dingi whialilluid takeli‘Place on this subject-f-5k,11614 s'bsvrauti4sl.l
• shear)s.-but-iierejOiced-thats the Hon. Gentlemalharrei ' ' -- i"6,,
krietir the," full athotuit ottlie charge against bins; t :„,d,1.14' '5.:a1°,4 41"1
- questions which called._ -forth asperity, to avoids:mir,ter;:7' \ .:
:which Could` hurt arlysindialidual, much less any-dal, ~u.- • ..o;. ',-
individuals -in that HMIS& The House would inv`v""`
him to recall to it the circumstances of this case. it '"„„_,,,,.
, happened that • on that :night -a Noble Lord bad' Oat!',, ----
,that his objection to the -vote did not arise in any de-
gree from economical principles, but specifically fil'a",,,Al
his. dislike to-, the principles of Mr. Canning. .: Re (Isll.-'IV2:
Spring Rice) then separated the opposition into two
, daises,' and stated that. an objection might be made in' the ;,,,,.
vote on the ground of economy, or if it was thou
the finances-of the' country, Would not bear such a hardefYlsalids
or it might be objected to.upon constitutional geount"-:: tent
Many might object to the precedent, without objecting to .ns
the end of the grant or torthe: policy of Mr. CatiningH-t .7.4
' 'Ake) considered These reasons he' (Mr.lSs. to form a 'Pe- :
cific,ground of objection distinct front others. :This was', .7:11
nut imputing motives; but distinguishing the classes of op- •
intment he had felt at what had. occurred', .."?'
position,. that Of the Noble Lord being connected thought
it
personal character: Of Mr.- Canning. There had not been
:Which he was not ready to re-etatain as - ; is
a single word: Xead..by the Hon. Member,
oton the
that
ezadoiisionppni
strong a manner. With respect to the second clasp, .Could - , :1
the lion. Member think that he (Mr. S. Rice) threw' out,
or intended • to - throwsitit; a reflection upon the .agricul- '',,._7
turalintereat? This was what he (Mr. S. Rice) under-
stood he implied.
.Why; it! was the very class to which
he (Mrj S. Rice) belonged, which he respected; 'adenoid .4j;
with refe;ethntheacte7 tlal4
have no possible rnotive'evhatever to disparage; arid:if lie l'i
had, there never was a time in which that , class Mere -,-3
nobly conducted themselves than on that occasion. He '
appealed to the examole of the Hon. Bart. the Member fur '
Somerset (Sir:T. Lethbridge) who said that although he lo ssi
objected to Mr.' Canning's policy, he felt it due to hiesset,,cf
genius and his talents to give his entire concurrence in Hit -,.1, ,i,
vote, which was an act of gratitude for the brilliant ser-
vices of that great man.—(Bear. )_Vas it to be believed ns ,he
that 1,,, (Mr. ,s. Rice) ill 'the face of• that deeistratinnii s`;:. to
so made,. should select that moment to cause irritation by
;ad attack on the agricultural body? He never made any no ,i,n‘.
I such thing, and he -was truly sorry that such a misappteetir lo
j pension should havearieen. ' -But it might be seids "If yen AH 1,.,
did not meam that, what did you mean ?".--(Hear.)—The
Hon: Metriber had referred to past debates, and if he did
so t00,.-the. fault teas not his; he (Mr. S. Rice) was !la
thrown upoir his defence ; and must avail himettlf of every
legitimate Means of resistance. He had not heard the t_ •
: speech to which he-now alluded when it took place; which saf
enabled him to discuss it with more composure. Ile (Bid
S. Rice) hid not the honour of being a friend or connftioa

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