The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

The House then divided,- when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it'
Majority against the motion —79
The House theri resolved itself into a Committee,
Mr. GREENE in the Chair.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir H. lIARDINGE then rose-to submit to the Com-
mittee the vote for the army estimates, and in doing so said
he would follow the usual course of -etplaining the dif-
ference which existed in the-vote-for the present year
and that of last- year. • The most important vote was
the: first,., that for the whole of her Majesty's
land forces, and he would therefore enter into some
explanation of it. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member
for Rochdale, and the Hon, Gentleman who spoke last,
talked as if the standing army was kept up for the
purpose of, enfdrcing the great amount of taxes. But
that •Was, net the case. The standing army was kept.up
iii order that they might be able to afford relief to the
troops abroad. The army of all ranks consisted of
100,295 men. Of this number there were 30,000 in the
East Indies. There were 5,000 officers, and 5,500 non-
commissioned officers. In 1842 the number amounted
to 122,516, and it certainly was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to make a reduction, but the
estimate had scarcely passed tha House when the events
which took place in Caubul rendered it necessary to
send six battalions to India. In the following year it
was the intention of her Majesty's Governtnent, as he
had declared in moving the estimates, to 'make a re-
duction of 3,500 men, and 2,000 were reduced last year.
That course would have been pursued in-the present
year, but the state of affairs in India was such that not-
withstanding the six battalions sent out the Governor-
General was not able to send home the three regiments
which ought to have been sent to England in return.
That disappointment, connected with other circum-
stances, caused the Government not to make that re-
duction which he admitted and declared it was their
intention to make. But the expense of the 30,000
men in India, which amounted to about 1,000,0004
was borne by the East India Company. He
thought he should be able to shoW the Hon. Mem-
ber for Coventry that the force kept up this year was not
for the sake of having a standing army in this country,
but to give our forces abroad that relief to which they
were entitled. Every Government had sanctioned the
principle of regiments being five years at home and ten
years abroad. In the year 1842 there had been more
than thirty-two regiments abroad upwards of ten years,
and the Government thought it their duty to relieve
those with the 'greatest expedition. Between the years
1837 and 1842, a force of 21,000 men had been raised by
the Government of Lord Melbourne, owing to circum-
stances in Canada, China, &c., and, in addition to that
force, Government determined to convert nine depots
into seven battalions, and send them abroad to the various
colonies to relieve the regiments there. There were still
upwards of fourteen regiments in India that had been
more than ten years abroad, and it was of the
utmost importance that they should be speedily
relieved; that relief, which should be given periodically,
could not be afforded without a corresponding force at
home, and it was for that purpose, and not to keep up a
standing army, that they had those forces. The 13th
Regiment of Infantry, which was commanded by Sir R.
Sale, had been in India upwards of twelve years. It was
on its march to Sukkur, in Sinde, where it might have
to encounter an enemy ; and the 55th,Regiment had
been abroad twenty-two years, and now he asked was
that proper? The Hon. Member for Coventry had re-
ferred to the state of the army in 1822, and seemed to
say there was at present a very effective force. If he
numbered the general officers among the effective portio,n
of the army, he (Sir Henry Hardinge) regretted to
say that but five of those officers, from their great
age, could be numbered among the effective forces.
He would now call attention to the more effective por-
tion of the army. In 1822 there were 396 general
officers, now there were 171, being a diminution of 225;
the half-pay officers then amounted to 771; they were now
360. The foreign half-pay officers in 1822 were 979 in
number; they were now only 466. In 1822 there were alto-
gether 12,019 officers, whose pay, including emoluments
to their wives, amounted to 1,651,0001. In the present
year the number of officers was 5,032, while their pay
&c., came to 909,000/, showing a reduction of 742,0001.
The saving in the reduction of pensioners amounted to
322,000/. Upon these two items alone, the Chelsea pen-
sioners and the officers of the army, there had been a
reduction of 1,100,000/ It was not this Government
alone, or the Government of the Duke of Wellington,
but there had been a general endeavour to effect a re-
duction in the expenditure. He would now proceed to
the ordinary part of the estimates. The first vote was
that for 100,295 men, the expense being 3,200,0001. This
was 187,5231. less than the amount last year. The dimi-
nution, however, was only an apparent one, occasioned
by the transfer of a part of the expenditure to the corn-
misariat. For the last three or four years there had
been great difficulty in settling the commisariat ac-
counts, in consequence of the events in Canada.
Her Majesty's Government was of opinion that it was
practically a better arrangement that the commissariat
estimates should be kept in their own department than
that they should enter into the general estimates of the
service. Another item was that of 2,0001. for libraries.
At home there were 38 libraries, of which 17 were in
Ireland ; and he believed that in the most remote station
a library would very shortly be established. The
ground of the Chatham Lunatic Asylum being in a bad
state, arrangements had been made for the purchasing of
some ground for building in the neighbourhood of Ro-
chester, and this would be included in the estimates of
the year. The vote for the staff exhibited an increase of
4,000/ The fourth vote was that for the public de-
partments. There was no real inerease in this
vote, although there was a small apparent
one arising from the postage. There was
no vote for the Trinity House, while for the Trinity
Asylum there was a small increase. In the volunteer
corps there was a diminution of 2,000/. The fourteenth
vote was that for the widows' pensions. In this item
there was a small increase-850/ That increase was
attributable to the circumstance, that a very large num-
ber of general officers, twenty-seven, he believed, in all,
had died during the past year. In the compassionate
listC h e tl
hs
ee ar e pwe an
ss
iao ns exuar s 11,
itnhcerreeasweas. Ina trheedsuicxttieoenn tohf v103t,e2,9f40ir.
The decrease in the number of pensioners this year was
about seven hundred. Ten thousand pensioners were
enrolled, to be called out whenever circumstances might
require the adoption of such a course. In Ire-
land, where six thousand pensioners were enrolled,
he was happy to say the applications for exemption
eaffmecoutinvteedfoornelye,tionell7uod.ing all The sitihpeeriantemnusa, superannuation allowances
amounted to only 13,0001. The charge for the whole
,0001.
He had now gone through the whole of the items. 5
48
would be happy to give any explanations which the'
Hon. Gentlemen might require. He could only state,
in conclusion, that her Majesty's Government were
anxious, not only to maintain the efficiency of the army,
but in everything which related to expense to observe
the most strict and rigid economy. The Right Hon.
Baronet then moved that 100,295 men should be fixed
as the standing force for the year.
Captain LAYARD said, no doubt it would be in the
recollection of the House, that for the two last years,
upon the army estimates being brought under.discusston,
ho had thought it his duty, a duty which be owed to the
service, to which he considered it au honour to belong,
to state his opinion of the immense advantage it would
be, that men should be allowed to enlist for limited ser-
vice—(Hear, hear)—as by such means a very superior
class of men, he had no doubt, would enter the service,
and by such means a great deal of the crime which was
now committed would be avoided. For nothing could
be looked upon as a greater or graver offence than de-
sertion, which, alas, unhappily existed to a great extent
in the army, and which arose from two causes—the first
and strongest of which was, a man after enlistment hav-
ing found that there was no chance of escape from a ser-
vice for which he found himself totally unfit. Now, in
the French service desertion was not so frequent, as men
only served there' for a given period. He (Captain
Layard) felt convinced that the parents of young men
in the middle classes would not feel that aversion which
was now felt in letting their sons enter the service, as
then, if a boy entered at 18 and received his discharge at
28, he would be able to apply himself to any other call-
ing, which would not be the case at a later period of
life.—(Hear, hear.) It had been stated as a reason,
and it seemed at first sight an insurmountable one,
the expense of sending home any considerable number
considered
nms
iedne,red
isupposingat th thee
expense regimentos tot t
a en i
met by not giving any pension to men Who'enlisted for a
entailed' d abroad;Nvould b but
e f u lhl ye
limited time.—(Hear, hear.) And he (Captain Layard)
had every reason to believe that most men would remain,
particularly if their regiment were abroad, the soldier
being generally much better off in foreign climates than
he was at home, though, of course, more exposed to the
vicissitudes of climate. Now, his (Captain Layard's) opi-
nion upon this subject was formed upon his own personal
observation, and had since been confirmed by the opinion
of many able officers whom he had spoken to upon the
subject. And he believed few, if any, would disagree
with him, when he stated that one, whose judgment
upon this subject must be one of the very best, and
whose anxiety for the well-being of the soldier all must
appreciate, agreed with him in that opinion the last
time he brought forward the subject. He alluded to the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary at War. He therefore
wished to ask that Right Hon. and Gallant Officer if
there was any chance of it being carried into effect.
And in the second place, he wished to ask that Right
Honourable Baronet if it was in contemplation to in-
crease the bounty upon enlistment, as he was well
assured, from personal observation, that the recruit,
finding himself in debt, very often deserted, believing
that good faith had not been kept with him. He trusted
this would be amended, as it was, he believed one of
the greatest sources of crime. He, for one, begged to
thank the Right Hon. Baronet and those in authority at
the Horse Guards, for having instituted savings-banks,
as he believed it would be of great use ; and he con-
sidered the Gallant Officer the Member for Liverpool
deserved credit for having advocated it as he did, and
for having promoted it when in his power. He felt that
encouragement to steadiness and good conduct would
have the best possible effect ; and this was proved by
the great benefit that had been derived from the excel-
lent plan carried out by the Noble Lord the Member for
Sunderland with respect to the good conduct badges,
and which had led to the happiest results. He thought
that great good would accrue to the service if lance
corporals were to receive twopence a day, and lance ser-
geants threepence a day, additional pay, as they had a
great deal of duty to perform ; and, as in many instances
they had to attend school, they were put to considerable
expense. He trusted that those in authority would
allow a longer period for furlongs to be granted this
year, as none had yet been given ; and though it might
not make any material difference to regiments who re-
mained at home, yet to thosewho were likely to go abroad
it was of the greatestimportance, as many men could have
little chance of seeing their families again, for a very
long time, if ever. Before he sat down he must draw the
attention of the House to the very pitiful, in short, to-
tally inadequate pension which was now given to the