The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-05 00:00:00

could be mass because great reflections and aspersions had I
been cast upon the character of Mr. Duncombe, which were
most unjust and unjustifiable. He ( Mr. Williams) regretted
that this motion should have been brought forward in so thin
a House, and therefore he hoped that his Hon. Friend would
not persevere in it, but if he did he should vote with him.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, the Hon. Member who had brought
forward this motion had stated in his address that
if he had consulted his own feelings and judg-
ment he would not have brought it forward at all ; and he
(Sir James Graham) believed it was not more painful to the
feelings of the Hon. Member than it was to the majority of
that House. The Hon. Member had also expressed his regret
that his constituents should have required him to adopt this
course, but having done so, he had exhausted all his ingenuity,
though he had failed to introduce any new topic or argument.
The Hon. Member had spoken of ministerial responsibility, as
it it was matter of no moment, but he (Sir ). Graham) begged
to say that his feelings were not so canons as not to be painfully
alive to this responsibility. The Hon. Member had also
spoken of the decisions of that House as tyrannical, but he (Sir
James Graham) would ask what in a popular assembly was to
decide any question but the majority ?—( Hear, hear.) He
stated before, when this subject was first discussed, that he did
conceive it would be inconsistent with his position as a Minister
of the Crown to give an answer either in the affirmative
or the negative to this question. But he would say
now, and he said then, that he would pledge himself
as a Minister and as a gentleman, that he had given the fullest
and most ample information before that tribunal, appointed by
the Mouse to investigate this question, and the report of that
vibunal had been before the House, and received its sanction
and approval. But the Hon. Member had stated that his col-
league had been spoken of, by a Noble Lord, as a degraded
man, by which it appeared quite clear that the Hon. Member
was not in his place at the time of the alleged charge, for if
be had been, he would have found that no such charge had
been made. In conclusion, he begged to say that, after all
that had passed, he had but to repeat his former declaration,
that their power had ;never been exercised by her Majesty's
Ministers from any other motive than a sense—a painful one,
he admitted, and perhaps, in some instances, a mistaken one—
of public duty. He would not move any amendment, but be
hoped the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion.
Mr. HUME said that it appeared to him that this subject
had new been completely exhausted ; and therefore he would
merely express a hope that it would act as a caution for Minis-
ters in future not to repeat such practices. He was sorry the
Hon. Member should press the House to a division, but if he
did be should divide with him, as he was most anxious to see
this document.

Mr. %lONCKTON MILNES declared that he should vote
in favour of the motion, as he could not see why this warrant,
if such there was in existence, should not be produced as well
as any other public document.
Dr. BOW RING bore his testimony to the high character of
Mr. Mazzini. A more honourable man—a more sterling
patriot, or purely moral character, did not exist ; and though
his love of country was great, his abhorrence of crime was
greater, and therefore it was that a total ignorance of his cha-
racter by those who suspected him of those crimes, the sus-
picion of which had caused his letters to be opened, had led to
the course adopted towards him. _

Colonel NV iNDHAM said he knew nothing of Mr. Mazzini,

but he would be very sorry to be placed in his' position.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said he considered that the
speech of Dr. Bowring was one that did him honour, for he
spoke from his knowledge of the character of a man who was
alone and friendless in this country ; while Hon. Members
opposite, who knew nothing of Mr. Mazzini, had pronounced a
contrary opinion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had already answered the ques-
tion this evening. He did not trump up statements, but had
laid dispatches upon the table of the House from foreign Courts ;
and if it should appear from these documents that an act of in-
justice had been done to Mr. Mazzini, he need not say that no
Member of the House would be more ready than he should be
to make him the most ample reparation ; and he begged to
add, that he would be more ready to do so to an unprotected
foreigner than to any Member of that House.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority against the motion —sl
LIFE AND FOOT GUARDS

Mr. WILLIAMS said that, in consequence of what had
taken place that night, he had altered his intention of asking
the House to agree to his proposition for reducing the army.
—( Hear, hear.) After what had transpired it would be most
injudicious on the part of any Member of that House to pro.
pose a reduction of the vote now before them.—( Hear, hear. )
do person was more anxious than he was to see economy in-
troduced into every one of their public establishments, and
particularly in the army, where he thought it could be prac-
tised to a great extent, and to the great benefit of the country ;
but if he perceived threats in any quarter from which he could
infer danger or hostility to the country, he would be the last
man in that House to stand in
.the way of the Government if
he thought they had good grounds for keeping up a force
which would be sufficient to maintain the credit and the honour
of the country.—(Cheers.) It was his intention to show that
the army estimates were considerably larger this year than
they had been fur several preceding years. In 1835 the
vo.e was for 100,100 men, but it was greater
this year by 48,000 men. With regard to
the more immediate object of his motion that
. _

of a reduction of the Life Guards to one regiment of 400 men,
he begged to say that the statement which had been furnished
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was not at all in con-
formity with the statement which he (Mr. Williams) made.
The (lost of maintaining and clothing each man in the Guards
was 651. 17s. each, and the cost cf horses and accoutrements
was 441. 3s. each per annum. Making the cost of each 1001.
per annum. Now, he was informed that the cost of each man
was 1301, but he would take it at 1001., and calculating the
expenses of every kind to the country, he found that the three
regiments of Horse and Foot Guards amounted altogether to
355.0691. Now, the cost of the 43d, 52d, 68th, 85th, and
90th regiments of the line, consisting of 4,515 men, was but
132,5521. 10s. The cost of the 20th, 23.1, 42d, 45th,
91st, and 97th, consisting of 8,028 men, was 232,0001.,
making a total cost for those eleven regiments of
335,8481, being just a few pounds more than the cost of the
three regiments of guards. Now, he did not see any reason,
why this state of things should continue. He thought that one
regiment of horse guards, consisting of 400 men, would be
amply sufficient to discharge all the state attendance which
her Majesty would require. The regular regiments of the line
had to perform all the hard work which the exigencies of the
country required, both at home and abroad, while an unfair
distinction with regard to pay was made in favour of the
punts, who, he maintained, could live at a less cost in bar-
racks in the Regent's-park, or Hyde-park, than in any other
part of the United Kingdom. There were fifty-eight captains
in those regiments who ranked as lieutenant-colonels in the
regular army. He saw no reason (and he considered it un-
wise) that the captains in the guards should be el, vated two
steps in advance of the captains of the regiments of the line.
It created great dissatisfaction and jealousy. And what, he
would ask, was the use of the guards? They performed none
of the services of the country except what was
confined to the metropolis and its neighbourhood.
When the Emperor of Russia was over here the Guards were

always brought out at review, but it was stated that he said he
did not want to see those troops, but the troops who had won
their battles and overcome the difficulties they encountered in
every part of the globe. It was the reliance which Charles the
Tenth of France reposed in his Guards that lost him
his throne and kingdom, for were it not for the
blind confidence which he reposed in his Guards he would
sever have issued those foolish ordinances which led to his de-
thronement. The whole amount of half-pay for the wido.vs
and children of officers was 3,659,000/. This heavy burden
might be greatly curtailed. He was willing to make a proper
recompense in age or infirmity, but he objected to officers in
perfect health, and unimpaired by age, retiring from the army
oa half-pay. They ought to sell their commission', as they
had macle no claim fur reward on account of public service.
He would, however, withdraw the motion.
Mr. HUME objected to the large number of Guards, which
. .

were maintained at a great expense, and did not go through
the usual routine of duties, nor were they obliged to face the
hardships which the other departments of the army
were obliged to encounter in foreign countries. Be-
sides, there were more promotions in the Guards
than in any other part of the army. He thought erery
regiment in its turn should serve in the Metropolis and at the
Palace, then a saving would be made which would enable the
Government to employ 1,000 men more in the serviee. The
time had come for a saving, and economical principles should
at once be carried into effect. He trusted the Government
would redue, at as early a period as possible, the increase
which was row proposed to be made to tha army. He
came down to the House prepared to resist the further in-
crease of a vote to the army, but, after what had taken place,
he would not do so ; he was as well disposed to economise as
any man, but also as far from subjecting this country to be
trampled upon by any foreign Power.—( Hear, hear.) He was
anxious for peace, and to save the people of this country, al-
ready heavily taxed, from further burdens, but not at the ex-
r!nse of national honours and national character.—( Cheers.)
He hoped the manifestation, so unanimous, which had taken
place on tha, night, would have its effect in the proper quarter,
and that peace would yet be restored and that good feeling es-
tablished between the people of two countries which was so
essential to their welfare.—(Hear, and cheers. )
The House then went into Committee.
ARMY AND NAVY ESTIMATES. _ _

Mr. S. HERBERT then rose for the purpose of moving
the army estimates, but previous to doing so congratulated the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down upon the sentiments
which he had given utterance to. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man then went on to combat the statements made by the Hon.
Member for Coventry (Mr. Villiers) regarding the expense of
maintain'ng the Guards, and the salaries to officers. Such
troops were necessary, and the salaries to the officers
were grea•er than in the other regiments, because
they had greater expenses to sustain. The Honour-
able Gentleman then went through the different de-
e_reises that were made in the expenses of the army. A de-
duction, amounting to 6,0001., we made in consequence of
the discontinuance of a militia raised by Colonel Read. The
expense for the transfer of clothing through the Ordnance was
less than usual by 1,0001 in consequence the of regulation of
the Committee,
of 1,0001. The derelcnta u the
Volunteer Corps there was a decrease
Half-pay, Widows' Pension, the Ge-
neral Pensions, the
,lhaenel the Reduced Half-pay,
amounted to 52.000/. Greata benefit would result from that.
ffi '
The total expense of oce-a in 8-ls amounted to 17,4261. ;
in the year 1845 they did not
exiattod tihle'"jsu support
r Iti
ofe concluded
laur dine
yd
by voting th 3 sum of 2,630,499/
this year.
Mr. HUME objected to the custom f paying
same place. one corps
E
more than another which may be stationed in the
In the Guards the allowance given to one regiment was double
that given to the other. There should be
an equalityi of allow-
ance or the worst results would follow. In
effects of such a practice proved to be very dangerous.ng. Kong the
hoped they would give every corps the same allownceHe
attempt to take from one regiment to support the other. andnot
duceion in such a case would require great consideration. . cc.
Colonel WOOD said that the Hon. Gentleman opposite had
made a speech which would reflect upon the character of mi
litary man. He thought that he was exceedingly unjust to the
Household Troops if he supposed that such a thing would
give rise to revolutionary ideas in their minds. The Hon.
Member for Coventry made a mistake when he stated that
since the peace there had been only one battalion of the House-
hold troops employed; there were two battalions in Canada,
wbo retained there for the space of two years. He thoughtthat
the Hon. Gentleman ought not to reflect on the character of
the Household troops unless he made a substantive motion.
Colonel RA WDUN referred to the state of mortality that
prevailed in the army which was quite sufficient to call fur the
interference of the Hoes.. He read a letter from Canton
stating that that portion of the army stationed there and at
Hong-Kong was in the worst state of ill health. He also al-
luded to Demerara, where a regiment lost lately twenty soldiers
during the frost of a few months. For the sake of humanity
the House ought to interfere, the soldiers ought in the present
time, when the world was so peaceable, to be kept in. healthy
localities.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that when Hong-Kong was taken
possession of by this country there was nothing to indicate that
the climate was detrimental to the constitution of Europeans.
He was happy to say.that lately the mortality in that island
brad very materially decreased. Within the last three years
it had been less than in the previous two years.
Capt. B. OSBORNE said that although ne could not agree
with the ' Hon.-ind Gallant Gentleman opposite (Col. Wood)
e.rviat the aion of the Household Brigade would tend to re-
Etialettis X 4410 could not support the motion of the Hon.
amber for Coventry. He wculd, while he win- on Lis. legf, ,
call the Attention of the Right Hun. Gentleman the Secretary

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