The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON. EVPNI

sidering maturely, the maniVea In which they should
have their fvai' sfearriers constructed ; and he had no
ee'taiiOn whatever in saying, that not one of those war
steamers, after having cost all this menu', was gt to take
her place as a man-of-war, or hod :ii nor construction
the smallest protectine fraii an adversary. In fact, the
engieee, eet'd beams that worked the engines were so
placed, that the first shot fired into one of them from
an enemy's ship, would destroy both boilers and engines.
and blow her up. The beam that teetked the engines
was on the top of the eylinler, so that the first shot
fired at it, Would blow up the ship. Whereas, if those
war steamers had been built of a sufficient depth, and
the engines and boilers placed below the water, the
works would be so far safe ; and if the Board of !Admi-
ralty had so ordered the construction of them, he had no
doubt but that every engineer in the country would say
it could be done. He also found that in the mode of
taking in coals, those vessels were equally defective, and
inconveniently contrived.—( Hear.) These observations,
he begged it to be understood, applied to corvettes, which
were commanded by commanders. He now came to an-
other class—namely, steam-frigates. The first he would
mention was the Gorgon, which cost the country 28,000/.
to construct ; yet she was 1,200 tons heavier than a 46-
gun sailing vessel; she had no means of firing guns from
her main-deck, so that if she should be chased by a supe-
rior vessel to-morrow, she had no means of using more
than one gun to defend herself. When this vessel was
put in the water it was found that she had this defect,
and then, indeed, it was said that she was never
intended to carry guns on her main deck. In answer
to that, all he would say was, that if she was so in-
tended, she could not carry them; and if she was not,
those who built her kneW nothing about it.—(Hear and
laughter.) Well, the Board of Admiralty, having seen
their mistake in respect to this vessel, it was to be ex-
pected they would try to correct it in the next. But
what was their next step? The next vessel they built
was the Cyclops, which cost 27,000/, ; she, like the
Gorgon, had rings and ports, &c., for main-deck guns,
and yet, when she was latinched, she was found to have
the very same defects as the Gorgon.—(Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) In order that the Cyclops might look
beautiful on the water, her lower ports had to be caulked
up. and instead of being able to carry four guns on her
main deck, she could not carry one.—(Hear. hear.)
He had no hesitation in saying that if these vessels were
properly constructed, they would be able to fight two
guns at the head, two at the bow, two at the stern, and
two in the quarters. The tonnage of the whole of these
vessels was 12,872 tons, and the whole amount of cost
was 290,022/. There was the Firebrand, of 1,190 tons ;
the Gladiator, of 1,210 tons ; the Samson, of 1,299 tons ;
the Scourge, of 1,190 tons—all of them in the same
category with the steam corvettes that he had men-
tioned. Not one of them had any main-deck guns—not
one of them had ports fit for stern guns. It was, he
confessed, astonishing to him—he could not und,rstand
how it was possible, when the Board of Admiralty had
plans and models laid before them of ships,
whether men-of-war or steam-ships, that they
could omit asking the constructor where were his bow-
guns, and where were his stern-guns. " I see your
drawings and your models, but I do not see a single ship
with two guns at its head or at its stern." He admitted
they had two bow-ports, but he should like to see the
man who could work them. It was almost impossible to
do so. Certainly it could not be done with efficiency.
The last vessel constructed was the Retribution. She
was an enormous vessel, of 1,611 tons, being nearly as
large as their old line-of-battle ships. Now, would the
House believe it—she was to carry only one gun on a
pivot made for it. The necessity of carrying a few guns
never entered into the heads of those who built her, and,
instead of carrying her engines sufficiently low,she was even
more exposed than smaller vessels. Her paddles plunged
under water forty inches. She was without a single
gun on her main deck or on her stern. He was perfectly
assured that if she had been only 500 tons, she would
have been better than she was at present. As to main-
deck ports, they were not even thought of, and she
plunged most violently when she went to Chatham. He
would now come to the last ship of all, the Terrible.
which was built by Mr. Lang. She was a vessel of
1,840 tons, and was certainly the best steam-vessel in
the navy. After commencing with sharp-bottomed ves-
sels, the Admiralty were obliged to listen to the remon-
strances which were made ; and the Surveyor of the
Navy, who would nat listen to any suggestions, instead
of acknowledging at once that sharp bottoms were not
fit for steamers, was gradually but slowly approaching
to the flat-bottom system. But would the House believe
that this large and superior vessel had only twelve guns
on the main-deck—six before and six abaft; and though
he admitted that they could put guns in her bows, it
would be impossible for any person to work them. She
had not a single stern gun on the main deck. He did
not know the number of steam-vessels en the stocks, or
how far advanced they were ; but whatever state they
were in, it was much better to pull them to pieces than
proceed with them in their present state. The money—
the enormous sums of money—expended in building
them, might as well be thrown to the winds. If they
went to war, they would find that steam-boats were no
more to the navy than cavalry were to the army. Two
cavalry regiments might as well be sent against one an-
other for an afternoon's amusement, as two steam-
boats. Their proper use was harassing the
enemy's rear, and how could they do that,
when they had no guns to point at them ?
He had seen them all with;his own eyes, and could speak
of the manner in which they had been designed. The
other use for steam-boats was to cover a retreat. If a
squadron were retreating, steam-boats would be found
useful to cover its rear, and if- steam-boats were sent in
pursuit vessels of the same construction could best con-
tend with them, hut how could our steam-boats do 39
when they had no guns pointed to the stern.
Sir G. COCKBURN—There are.
Sir C. NAPIER—On the main-deck?
Sir G. COCKNUAIi-- WU silent.
Sir C. NAPIER proceeded. He had been told he looked at
the state of the navy with a jaundiced eye. Such was not the
case. He stated broad facts, which, upon inquiry, would be
found perfectly true. On the main-deck, he repeated, not one.
—t Hear, hear.) Let the members of the House of Commons
go down and view them, and they would at once see that the
guns could not be effectually worked on the main-deck, and if
they did not, after a careful inspection, agree with him, he
would never again talk about the navy. He was sorry fir
having troubled the House at so much length, but f:;',i it his
duty to do so. All he asked for was a Con2...,ittee._( Hear. )
Had they succeeded in their mode ship-building ?If not, it
should be changed, and the 'east ascertained and acted upon ;
a Commission if they had,
why let ne
continued. He preferred asking fur
structi
'co inquire into the whole system of naval con-
se e-
reut gentlemen better acquainted with the rules
eer customs of the House were of opinion that this was
' the more eligible mode, as by Making it a money
question he had more chants of obtaining a Committee.
He did not care whether it was a Committee or a Commission
—they were new going to build a large number of steam-boats,
and he asked the House not to grant one shilling until the con-
dition of the steam navy 'was fully and thoroughly inquired
into. He knew this was not a very palatable subject, though
from the manner in which the House had heard him, he had
no reason to think so ; but a sense of duty compelled him to
speak out the whole truth as he found it. He felt satisfied that
if the public press had not taken up the question of the state
of the navy in the manner it had done, it would have been use,
less for him to have attempted to bring the !tatter forward.
During the last twenty years, he had repeatedly called the at-
tention of those in power to the subject ; in fact, he had a large
book fell of correspondence, but up to the present momen the
had never been able to get them to listen to a single suggestion
he had made.—( Hear, hear.) He had met with the greatest
courtesy from the Gallant Officer opposite, He had no party
feeling on this subject.—( Hear, hear.) He never introduced
his politics into naval inquiries--she was only guided by a sense
of what was due to the public, and only hoped to have the public
money sdvantageouzly expended. The House ought to grant
this Committee. He thought they were bound, out of regard
for the members of the present naval administration, and for
their predecessors, and in justice to the Surveyor of the Navy,
and to the First Lord of the Admiralty, to accede to his mo.
tion.—( Hear, hear.) It *mild then be seen whether they had
been libelled or not. lielare a Committee he would undertake
to prove every thing he had stated. The. Gallant Commodore
set down amid much cheering, having again thanked the fldtise
for the attention they had given him, and read the motion,
which was as follows :—" A Select Committee to inquire into
the manner in which the money voted since the year 1835 fur
the construction of ships has beetr eiperided) and if the ships
constructed are an improvement Of the aid system."
Mr. HUME seconded the motion. The Hon. and Gallant
Officer had ehallettged inquiry—he (Mr. Hume) thought he
was entitled to it. He thought the country would not feel
satiated unless a full and searching inquiry were made. He did
not think, however, the present time Was at pro pee for itapiiry
as on a previous occasion, when those great changes in the
naval condition of the eistintfy were made. He thought the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite had a great deal to answer for.
On the 20th of June, 11;32, the Right Hon. Baronet used an
expression which had often been quoted, and which was still
fresh in his (Mr. Hume's) memory. He said that naval cap=
tains were more competent to fill the office of surveyors of the
navy than any other men, as much as to say that science was of
no use in the construction of ships. The present question was
one of the greatest iniportifiCe in a national point of view. The
greatest commercial eouhtry in the world should have the most
powerfal and effective engines at. sea. England was then, and
had always been, very backward in the application of science to
Ship-building. So defective was: the construetioti of ships
during the war, that we were, obliged to imitate
the construction of those Frenth, Spanish, anti avtti
Swedish and Danish vessels, tellieh we captured.
Surely it was the British-Who snoald have set the example in
,ship-buildinte, seeing that not only our maritime and commer-
cial greatness depended upon our naval superiority, bat even
Our safety.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon, Gentleman then
quoted from the Third Report of the Commissioners appointed
to inquire into the affairs of the navy, which stated that haVal
architecture had advanced to greater pm-iodide, and been more
cherished among the Frenth than among any other people ;
that little attention Was paid to it in this country ; and that the
French employed then of the greatest talent and ability in the
ecnstrection of ships, whilst we contented ourselves with creep;
tog on in the dark„ in quest of such discoveries as elflike thight
throw in our way. In consequence of the tecoffiniehdation of
a Committee, a school for naval architecture was established,
but, in 1832, the First Lord of the Admiralty abolished the
system, and the greatest injustice had been done to the mem-
bers of it, who were never allowed to fill those statitits Which
it was originally intended they should fill, and for whith their
abilities qualified them. They had been taught ilgebri,
trigonometry, fluctions, the calculus, and, in short, the whiffle
system of mathematics, and were to have entered the most
subordinate offices in the navy, rising gradually to higher
offices as they merited. Such men would have been acquainted
not only with the whole system of naval tactics, but would have
been able to suggest improvements founded upon
their scientific and practical knowledge.—( Hear, hear.)
A great deal of money had been thrown away in remodelling
old ships—it would have been much cheaper to have built new
ones, than continually tinkering with those built upon an en-
tirely different construction. Ho first thought the Commission
preferable, he would most willingly assent to it, but he vrould
at all events second with much pleasure the motion of the
Hon. and Gallant Commodore.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said his Gallant Friend op-
posite had begun his statement by going so far back as the year
1806. Now it was not his ( Sir G. Cockburn's) intention to follow
him through the whole of that statement, nor would he be able
to do so if he were inclined, neither would he seek to defend
certain defects in vessels to which he had alluded. But this
he would beg of the Gallant Officer and the House to remem-
ber, that during a great portion of the time of which the Gallant
Officer had been speaking, the art of ship-building was by no
means so perfect as it had become of late.---( Hear, hear.) He
could not deny that the class of vessels which the Gallant
Officer had found fault with, were of a very bad description.
Forty-gun brigs had since been deemed unworthy; they


had become bad by reason of the dry rot having got into them,
and many of them had, been Or&trod to he ',silt and were
fuTtd,to nate !!lade very excellent frigates. Whether this was
a prudent course er not, he would not pretend to say, but when
it was done there was nothing to psi-vent the authorities of
that day from taking that course. He would now come to the
charges which had been made against the Admiralty Board,
and he would wish to draw the etteetien dl' the House td the
first cf those charges that applied to the present Hoard, be-
cause ne did not feel that he was bound to defend the acts of
that Board before he and his colleagues came into office—
( Hoar, hear.) He would begin, then, with the period when
he did come into office, and he would premise by requesting of
the House to consider the position in which he and his col-
leagues were placed at that time, in reference to the Navy
Board, and particularly in reference to their position with Sir
William Symonds. —( Hear, hear.) Every one was aware of
the feeling that existed in regard to that gentleman ; and,
therefore, if the first act of the new Board was to stop all the
ships then in course of building under the direction of Sir
William Symonds, would it not be said that he had not been
treated as he deserved.—( Hear.) Many of the most excellent
and valued officers in the navy considered that that officer had
done the navy and the service very great benefit.---( Hear. )
But the Gallant Officer opposite and the House should recollect
that when he ( Sir G. C.) came into office, the Queen, with
which the Gallant Officer had found so much fault, was in pro-
gress of being built, and when she was completed, the Admi-
ralty Board sent her to sea, in order to try her power.—
Hear.) She went to the Mediterranean ; and the next the
Board heard of her was, that she was a very excellent ship, and
that she had the advautage of all the ether vessels of the same
class, except the Vanguard. That vessel had also been ordered
by Sir William Symonds; and he (Sir G. C.) would ask,
would it have been just in the Board when they came in to have
stopped her?—(Hear.) But here let him say, in defence of
the present Admiralty, that when they did come in, they re-
solved not to build any more until those in progress should
have been completed and tried—(Hear)—and when they had
heard of the sort of vessel the Albion was, they stopped the
further building of all the others.—( Hear.) When he (Sir
G. C. ) came into office, the Admiralty Board, without mean-
ing the slightest disrespect to Sir W. Symonds, or to question his
merits in the least, resolved to form a committee of all the
most talented masters of ships, to whom they gave directions
to report to them upon the best mode of arming the sterns and
prows of those vessels.—( Hear.) That report was made, and
laid before the Surveyor-General of the Board, and he cer-
tainly did differ from much that it contained.—( Hear.) With
regard to the Queen being so defe.tive as the Gallant Officer
opposite had stated, he ( Sir G. C.) begged to say that the rea-
son she was put into dock and altered was, because the surveyor
had stated that the reason she was so defective was because she
required those alterations, and, therefore, she got them.
In the meantime the Admiralty Board did the best they could
to remedy any other defective vessels, and with this view they
had selected three of the best naval architects they could find
to examine all the other vessels said to be defective, to report
upon their faults, and to take care that those faults should be
avoided in all future vessels.—( Hear, hear.) He did not
mean to say that the officers employed by the present Board
of Admiralty were superior to those they had succeeded, sad
it was but fair of him to say that Sir W. Symonds was inferior
to none of them.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir G. Cockburn)
should, at the same time, say that Mr. White had shown very
superior qualifications in his office, and had done one of the
most extraordinary feats in improving a vessel, that,
perhaps, had ever been heard of. The Board had
picked out a 42-gun ship, and cut off her bows,
and Mr. White was employed to put new bows to her,
and in this he had succeeded so well, that the vessel, upon
being sent out on trial, performed her voyage without letting
in any water, which was a very desirable perfection.—( Hear,
hear.) Again, he would say, that the Board deserved credit
for not doing anything likely to wound the feelings of Sir W.
Symonds, by being in too great a hurry to upset the works
they found going on when they cause into office.—( Hear,
hear.) In the meantime, if the Admiralty should find that
defects existed in the Albion and the Queen, and the other
vessels on the stocks, care would be taken that they should be
made good ships of.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to what had
been said by an Hon. Member, in reference to shipwrights'
apprenticeship, the Board had resolved to pay every attention
to that subject also. It had. been observed that the whole of
this subject ought to be referred to a Committee of the House
of Commons. Now, he begged to say, that his impression
was, that such a Committee would be the very worst authority
to which such a subject could be referred. He could assure the
Gallant Officer and the House that the Admiralty Board would
take up the subject, and bestow upon it all the attention in
their power, and devote their best energies towards remedy-
ing all defects ; and if they were found to be incompetent
to do so, then it would be their duty to resign their office to
the Gallant Officer opposite, or to any one else whom the
House and the country might deem better fitted to discharge
their duties.—( Hear, hear.) Then, with regard to what had
been said by the Gallant Officer about mailing-ships ; the Gal-
lant Officer could not be more anxious to avoid defects in those
vessels also, than the Navy Board ; but to those vessels also
the same observations applied as to the steam-vessels, namely,
that most of them had been contracted for before the present
Board came into office.—( Hear, hear.) The present Board
had no intention to put guns on the main-deck of war-
steamers, for if they were fitted up with guns, it would ma-
terially retard their progress. His impression was that those
vessels should have their guns so disposed of as to enable
them, when they took their stations, to fire upon the enemy
with perfect impunity.—( Hear.) He did not approve of
putting too many guns in those vessels, for it was
of vast importance that they should be kept at their
proper work.—( Hear, hear.) The Admiralty were now en-
gaged in building some iron vessels and they had made it a
sine qua non with the contractors, ;hat each of these vessels
should have the power of firing two guns on her main-deck
forward, and two aft.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know that
it would be necessary for him to detain the House any longer;
but, in conclusion, ho would say that he knew what the
strength of the French navy was, and he knew what that of
England was, and he was happy to be in a position to state
that the naval force of England was much better and larger
than that of France, notwithstanding all that had been said to
the contrary.—( Hear, hear.)
Captain RODS conceived that the navy and the country
were greatly indebted to the Hon. and Gallant Member who
had introduced this subject to the House.--( Hear, hear. )
He would also admit that the Hen. Baronet on the Treasury
Bench had done good service to the country by upsetting
the Royal Naval College.—( Hear, hear.) As to what
had been said about vessels built with round sterns,
there appeared to have been at one time a mania
for constituting vessels in that way, and millions of money
were thus expended, and it could not have been more uselessly
employed He had commanded a corvette, and other vessels, so
built, and he could say that not a vessel in the service with a
round stern could fire a stern gun, because the muzzle of
the gun could never be brought sufficiently close to the port.
—( Hear, hear.) And yet he felt satisfied that nearly one-
eighth of the national debt had been incurred by building
vessels ott this defective plan.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the same
bad system was going on, and the result would be that those
vessels never could go to sea.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Meraber next alluded to abuses existing in the practices of the
dock-yard officers; for when the Admiralty Board ordered a
report of the defects of a vessel, a sum nearly double that ne-
cessary was always set forth in the report as that re-
quisite for the purpose, and the Admiralty had no possible
means of knowing whether it was too much or too little.
He merely Mentioned tbese facts, because he thought no
surveyor ought to be allowed to build models until they had
been certified by a scientific man.—( Hear, hear.) Premiums
should be given to the gentleman who produced the best model,
and the field for supplying them throWn open to competition.
If they wanted to build steamers, let them go to the builder of
the Great Britain, or Mr. Napier, and not confine themselves
to gentlemen brought up in the royal dockyards, whose educa-
tion was generally very circumscribed. He had commanded
every species of brig-corvette, and he could say, without fear
of contradiction, that none of them were fit to go to sea. They
might be splendid vestels,• but really he never could discover any
remarkable beauty about them. What he had been saying for
the last ten or twelve years, he was still compelled to repeat, be
it ever so tedious or unpleasant. He had remarked, and every
ether good seaman who went before him had done the same,
that Sir William Symonds' ships were total failures. His first
vessel was the Flying Fish, and everybody connected with the
navy was aware of its utter inefficiency for hard ser-
vice; or, in faet, service of any sort. Their three-deckers
were Whites, solely because they made them without flat floors.
Yet the Admiralty still persisted in building them without this
appendage, an act of which he had often heard it said, no man
in his sober senses would be guilty. Sir William Symonds'
first frigate, he admitted, was a magnificent ship. She
had tome remarkably fine points about her, but
she was exceedingly sharp its the water, and in
Many other respects (termite. But perhaps tome of Sir
Writ. Symonds' friends would say he had introduced improve-
ments of late. Now, he was prepared to assert that the Snake,
which he built a short time back, was equally at bad a ship—
having the same defects its the Plying Fish; Which he built so
far back as tett Veers ago. He was conscious df the defects in
these ships whin he held a post in her Majesty's service, bait it
Would have been a source of great annoyance at Well as iiieoh-
venience Us hint if he had ventured to speak his mind upon the
subject then. The Admiralty appeared to look upon a confes-
sion of this sort as a personal reflection upon them, end this de-
terred many of her Majesty's officers rota speaking their
minds en the subject. they were identified With Sir William
Sytitotids, and no doubt had determined td sink Or With him.
Ten years had however elapsed, since the time he spoke of, but
Hula dr no charge had taken place. Certainly, the Administration
had changed,but their successors had unfortunately been upwards
of three years making up their minds es to the rilefits of tine
of Sir William Symonds' frigate'° they had been all this
while endeavouring to discover if she *as a fast vessel, and yet
they had not eonie to any deeision. RIR the duets of this was
plain enough: If, When he was in the service; he had been
sent out to Malta with a ship, with specific orders to report
Upon her sailing upon a magnificent breete, what vrotild have
become of him if he had reported unfavourably? Why, he
would have been plain Mr. Ross at this moment, instead of
Captain Roue.—(Laughter.) Sir William Sytrionds' ships
had, from this very reason, been described as superior Vessels
in every respect: He did not wish to be utideritodd as finding
fault with Sir W. Symonds, because he was quite aWart that it
Was by the direction of, the AdMiralty that he tiperided
millienS ih the building of these defective ships. Nor was it
his fault that the vessels were defective. He was not brought
up to the profession of a ship-builder, and was by no means a
scientific man. But why could not the Admiralty decide at
once upon the merits of the Queen? Tht atiswet he hid
wt.% " there is tio wind:" " What, no wind t' At ono time
he was sure it was plentiftil, but new they had a difficulty of
finding a good breete between the Weit Indies and Lisbon.—
(Latighter. ) It really was too bad. Here had they be*ti
three years trying this model, and still they had not come to a
decision, nor were they likely to arrive at any in another
three years. He was as anxious as any one ti
know the troth' slid , *it Confident; if theY
would give Orbiter directions, a gale or wind would very soon
fotled.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) With respect to the
future, what the Admiralty wanted, was an active man like
Sir W. Symonds, for he certainly was au active than, to in-
spect what was going ott ill the ddcityards.—( Hear, hear.)
This would piit all ehd td the present Baste arid Wish ex-
pendithre. Sir William Symonds would be a Useful man Id
them ih this ,way, but if they Clewed liini to lay (khan his
linels and build ships iipon them; the defects riompained of
*mild never be remedied. Let him lay down other men'e
lines if they would, and then there would be a pos-
sibility of his building. an efficient, seasicirthy Vessel:
He had little more to ferhark, tint. it 411 events;
hetlier the Hoe. and Gallant ComModore succeeded with his
thotitin or slot; he Was sure it *mild be prdductive of great
public benefit.—(Heer, hear.) .He expected I,t would receive
More support froth the other side of the House than his.
-there was much more public spirit on the Opposition side, and
the navy had always looked upon them as their friends in that
House. lf, in psis warmth: he had given utterance to spy
eXpression calculated to hurt the feelings of any member
of the Board of Admiralty, he could only express
his regret for it. Ile naturally took a great interest
in the subject. He had left the service, because he would not
countenance the principle which had guided the Board, and he
need hardly say he still felt as deeply on the matter.
Mr. C. WOOD did not think this discussion would
be productive of any great advantage to the navy,
nor did he believe an inquiry would produce those
beneficial results which some lion. and Gallant Members
seemed to anticipate. lie must say the subject was so en-
tangled with technicalities that it was quite impossible for the
House to comprehend it. It would be quite unintelligible to
most Hon. Members, and for this reason, he could not agree
to the motion. But the Hon. and Gallant Commodore had
advanced little or nothing to 'ustify an inquiry being insti.