The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-17 00:00:00

power, to be got ernad by the new law of conspiracy, and an
army of occupati. n.—( Hear, hear. ) There were 21,000 men
now in Ireland, instead 14,000. as there were a few rears ago.
The present Government had precla tned to all Eu ope th
they could not trust helaml. They had their armies, their
steam-boats, and fleets, but not for the purposes of commerce.
Ireland was in a meet critical cond•tion, even ht the admission
of the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Govern
went. After six months of a state of discontent, almost boy
dering upon revolution, the Government proposed no
remedy. The Hon. Member then adverted to the state trials,
and observed that those who were tried could not have been
aware that the law was as defined by the Attoiney- General
and the Chief Justice. Indeed if the law was
as laid down by the Chief Justice, there was
not a single man on either side of the House,
who had taken a prominent part in public affairs
for the last ten years, that had not brought himself within the
meshes of this conspiracy law. The speeches made during the
Irish agitation, and the meetings assembled were nut more
violent or multitudinous than those which preceded the Reform
Bill, in which agitation the Right Hon. Gentleman the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department was a prominent
acter.—(Hear. ) Above all, the Noble Lord the Secretary for
the Colonies ought not to forget the line pursued by his poli-
tical friends on that occasion. Never, in the annals of this
country were stronger words used by apublic man than by the
Noble Lord on that occasion, when, aided by three hundred
Members, he said distinctly, and publicly—it was no-
torious at the time—that the King might choose
what Ministers he pleased; Lord GI ey's Government
had done their duty in bringing forward a great national mea-
sure, and the Duke of Wellington and his colleagues might
take place anl infsmy.—( Hear.) Now when they talked of
conspiracy, and held up their bands in horror at the atrocity
committed at those meetings in Irehnd, they ought not to
forget what they had said themselves.—(Cheers.) Let them
not say that they were voting for what they believed a great
national good, but that if others did so they were conspirators.
The Right Hon. Baronet should not have forgotten his receiv-
ing the deputations from Birmingham—above all, when
his Noble Friend passed a just eulogtum on the conduct of
Mr. O'Connell in 183 d, 1838, and 1842, on one of which
occasions, Mr. O'Connell risked his popularity, and almost his
life, by standing up against the combinatiois of tradesmen.
Had Mr. O'Connell held up his finger at the time of the
Chartist movement, it would have been joined by the whole
Irish people. Nobody would deny that that was a great na-
tional service, and he regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet
had put so ungenerous a construction upon it as to say that it
was, in point of fact, only a proof how much more deeply laid
that conspiracy was. The Right Hon. Baronet was the last
man that ought to have used such language. Were he to look
back to the period of 1831, when he came into office on the
shoulders of Air. At twood, he should make the admission that
his conduct, as a Member of Parliament, went to the verge of
legality. He was cautious, no doubt—he was always a sort of
Secretary of State in embryo on those occasions, and
he was willing to profit by the incaution of others—such
as that of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies.
One was carried into the Admiralty, and the other was made
Secretary for Irelan 1. As was said by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Member for Waterford, there was no direct ap-
plication of physical force, as in a more recent instance but
a sort of moral force, based on a physical organisation.
What most influenced the decision of the House of Lords
ith regard to the Reform Bill was—deny it as they might—the
Birmingham meeting of 1831. Now he had the curio-sty to
look back to the records of that period. They had heard a
great deal of Mullaghmast, and Tara, and other multitudinous
meetings in Ireland, but he believed they forgot what passed
amongst themselves in England only ten years ago. When he
looked to the records of this period, he vas inclined to think
that it was a mere milk and water affair in Ireland. There
was an earnestness, and stubbornness, and high resolve charac-
teristic of the English meetings, which carried the Reform
Bill. A great meeting was held in Birmingham on the 4th
of October, 1831. It was attended by an enormous multitude
of people from the Midland Counties. Mr. Attwood presided
at it, and the first words he used were not very unlike those
used by Mr. O'Connell. He said, "I am about to ask you to
cry out, God bless the King,' I desire you all to take off your
hats, and look to heaven, where the just God is, who rules
both Heaven and earth, and to cry out, God save the King.'"
'There was no disloyalty in that. The Times, in commenting
upon it, said, " The spectacle which here presented itself was
beautifully
scruteyti
hef s
responded
lsely\lea:otaawennt
?satins:
di.,
ottuns:reeiwtimagnificentlyuhestdepi
oatenpor.eyhi.;oeft
,ahs,
v‘ueEeGbnelvdiemdi
rat
yoens sublime."
v'
hoeo
enf
taOehdvneh.heulKi,ne,
hmightwas thinkinvolved i t
aidrs,rge
tchoovueTsrahendadt,
was a burst of loyalty ; but he was afraid it did not last very
long ; for he found that there was a speech made by Mr.
Haynes, who said, that "he agreed that the power of the
people was greatest, not when it struck, but when it was sus-
pended, and that it was best to show force, without using it,
as the Roman said—

" Ostendite helium, pacem habebetis."
He went on to say that 150,000 of his countrymen had met
to petition the Lords to pass the Bill. A question had been
asked, Would they pass the Bill ? He would answer it by
asking another—Dare they refuse to pass the Bill? He then
referred to the army, and said, that the army could not fight,
if the people refused to pay the taxes—that those who had reaped
immortal honours in foreign countries would not murder their
wives, relations, and friends, in order that 400 might tyrannise
over 16,000,000. This was language (said the Hon. Gentle-
man) not very dissimilar to that used in Ireland, and according
to the definition now given of the conspiracy, those who joined
in the English proceedings were equally guilty of conspiracy,
and he was himself as guilty as any body ; but he did not profit
so directly by it. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baro-
net were as guilty of conspiracy as any of the band which the
Right lion. Gentleman boasted of having caught in his net.
He should like them to be tried by a jury—not by an illiterate
Dublin jury—not by anilliterate Dublin jury, who mixed in
public-houses with their pot-house associates—but tried even
by a jury of their own colleagues. He would give them the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Lincoln, as their foreman, or
the Right lion. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, who
once declared, as the guns were firing, when the King
was coming to open Parliament that the next time they
were fired, they would be shotted.—( Hear, hear.)
As to the law as it now stood, it was difficult to understand it.
—( Hear, hear.) It threw a halo round an illegal act for an
illegal object. The Government seemed to have sacrificed all
those principles which they had hitherto asserted were right in
the abstract.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if they adopted such
courses, was it at all surprising if they sacrificed the principles
of liberty ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought the greatest injustice
had been shown in the late trials in Ireland, and he felt no
doubt, that if the Attorney-General of England could only
forget those principles of justice, of honour, of mercy and in-
tegrity, which he had ever held, that the time was not far dis-
tant when they would not only see Mr. O'Connell, but Mr.
Cobden, the inmate of a gaol —( Hear, hear.) He believed
that in no place but Ireland would they find an
Attorney-General who would frame an indictment against
a whole people.—( Hear, hear.) He would warn
Gentlemen on the other side of the House of the course
that they were pursuing ; they were leading the people to
inquire where was the real conspiracy—was it among the
people of Ireland ? was it among the people of England ? or
was it in that House ? Let them answer that question ? Were
they not leading the people to believe that the Queen was
favourable to the support of an oligarchy ? (Hear hear. )
Every concession that had been made to the Catholics had
been neutralised by the manner in which the law had been ad-
ministered. Years back no Catholics had been admitted into
tainnisypacahloe o
u.
laf thrauvset inr Ireland.
aisedacry
againstWa
sit to b
the
proceedings
wondered
r•ocee( iinoaft that
House? They wanted ;the same justice for them that was
adopted towards England, and they were entitled to it.—
( Hear, hear.) The Church question in Ireland was what
emancipation had been. The Act of Union was in dispute.
He thought some of the artielss of the union and the Church
were the bane and the curse of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The
bar on
yes
o
fitßifoi
fifth
anhts Ota when
ease. continuance.—( nihf atoetiruyrhoi luendwaeeAnetr :rscreewith
(dUfaHael nelleitoato:hrner,edeh was,responsibilitya hi
se
hear.) H—( e
"set et
ohalpori fsun ohoeh"naet. Govern-
mentr'n.t
the
that predic-
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rTdtehi
n
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e
Catholic feeling on this point ought not to be misunderstood.—
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then proceeded to read
several extracts from a work, entitled '' The Correspondence
of a Junior to his Senior," showing the degraded manner in
which the Roman Catholics its former times were treated,
many parts of which raised considerable laughter in the House.
As to the Church question, he had spoken so fully upon it last
session, that he did not now feel himself justified in trespassing
on the attention of the House. He thought he had some
reason to congratulate himself on the progress of the opinions
announced by him regarding the Irish Church. The senti-
ments expressed by the Noble Lord the Member for the City
of London, and the Noble Lord the Member for the town of
Sunderland, were of a liberal nature, and he must say they
were very promising disciples.—(Laughter.) Perhaps he
could not, without some impertinence, call the Noble Lord
( Howick) his disciple, as that Noble Lord had always pro-
feasted sentiments of a very liberal character. There were
several remedies proposed—the first was the appropriation of
the income of the Protestant to the Catholic Church. The
other was to abolish all, and that was what he preferred.
It was again suggested that the voluntary system
should be established in Ireland—always, of course,
with a due regard to vested interests. Great obloquy had
been cast upon him in the course of last session. He had al-
luded to the immense fortunes left by certain Protestant digni-
taries. He was not then aware that a return had bean laid on
the table of the House, which showed that the probate of all
the Irish Bishops exceeded the enormous sum of 1.875,000/.
The state of the Protestant Church in Ireland really required
modification ; the semi-religious, semi-political condition of
the Protestant clergy was most offensive to the public, and
they had just reason to complain of it. They frequently at-
tended very large meetings, and took a very prominent part in
them— somet.mes using most violent language—and yet
they were not prosecuted. There was the Reverend
Holt Waring, for instance, who attended very large
meetings and used very violent language, and yet he was not
prosecuted. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Dublin seemed to be quite insensible to the in-
terest of the great body of the people when talking of his own.
That Right Hon. Gentleman talked of domestic peace being
founded upon religious truth. Religious truth ! Who was
to be the exponent of that truth ? He supposed the Right Hon.
Gentleman. He said the Church question should not be
agitated—that it was indecent to agitate that question.—(A
laugh.) But where was this truth—where was its Source ?
Why more than half the Christian world disagreed with him
in his religious belief.---( Hear.) Compared with the great
body of Christians, Episcopacy was a mere fraction.
He (Mr. Ward) regarded such a declaration as that, not only
as insulting, but as almost impious. He feared that the prin-
ciples of the Right Hon. Gentleman once acted on, they would
speedily lead to the dismemberment of the empire. There was
no man more anxious to preserve the union titan he was, but
he considered it utterly impossible to maintain it, if the de-
clarations of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, were to be acted upon. They
should adopt a conciliatory and healing policy. The Hon.
Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Mr. daddison, who
had been President of the United States of America. These
opinions were delivered at a time when it was apprehended
that the union of the States was about to be dissolved, and
that each was to have a separate government. What took
place in America then ? Did he urge upon those States which
were induced to hold together, the propriety of governing those
States which were inclined to separate by a military force,
and so forcibly retaining them ? No ; a convention suet at
Philadelphia, and at that convention Mr. Maddison urged in
the strongest manner the policy of giving equal rights and equal
privileges to all the inhabitants of the States—a perfect
equality of civil and religious rights. He told them they
ought to live together as the members of one family, and as
fellow-citizens of a great and flourishing republic, for which
their ancestors had spilled their dearest blood. So said he
(Mr. Ward), let the Irish people have an equality of
civil and religious rights, and be in all respects placed
upon a footing of equality with the people of England.
The people of Ireland were at present discontented ; he did not
say but military force night suppress the untoward signs of
that discontent. For some time they might continue to govern
Ireland in this manner, but if the political horizon should
become clouded—if foreign countries should threaten war,
encouraged, perhaps, to do so by the d scontent of Ireland—
then, instead of finding the Irish people their steady, warm,
and efficient supporters, they would find them dangerous and
determined enemies. A great responsibility was attached to
the present Government. They should recollect the condi-
tion of Ireland from the union to the period at which Catholic
emancipation was granted. If in 1800 Catholic Emancipa-
tion had been granted, thirty years of agitation and turmoil
would have been prevented. The Right lion. Baronet should