The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARV

11"1. a I"' 'lds Mr. .1. IIUSSELL, who was
Tide inaudible in the g.t'.4.1.‘,
;Mr' AK I'EY said the Right Honourable Baronet
had made rin exeellen
but the gr. a' •diffieri.tr-.. Socech
on
the subject of rail" s,
y which he had adver ed on a
fTinr h had alio.,ther passfd (iv. rin utter
tji.h. the parr' s'l'nee e wished t.. know %%hat was to tee (lone
star.?—(Laughter.) They won' be vic-
finf."Bld .he railway Bills were to be. disposed by
fs kn'r a' • Committees of that House Now he wished
toJw if the Members of that llouse wire to b.• left
f 'the interminable addres,:es of barristers ?
"Ighter.) Barristers would make no submission ex.
i-Tt to members of their own profession,
and the goes-
inn which naturally a ore was—what persons could be
Placed in authority. This the Right Hon. Baronet ad-
;TittPd. on a former occasion, was the great difficult, to
- dealt with, hut still he had not touched upon it in
h - ves
, einse_
the atiPtsch he had just made. In addressing t 1
the law of a ease, barristers constantly ex pre.sed
regret that they were not adders-ing gentlems n
1111'.3 wore learned in the law. Netwithstanding the
rnielnen sitting in the Committee were makers of the
r. Barristers con.tantly regretted that they were not
learned in the law, and that they could not of conee•
.94e,nee comprehend the legal arguments which were
11/Lid to the question. Now in a paper of that morn-
Paper of considerable influence—the Morn-
Ing Ch,onicle—and the Morning Chronicle only ex-
-11,res8"1 in a great measure what was the pub.
130toPrnion upon this subject,—they would fin a
which of the question discussed It was a part
Must not he overlooked, hecause it was perfectly
-Itlntieus that the time of Committees was monstrously
br" Pied by the addresses of learned gentlemen. As
~„, L"ate d stated moreover on a former night, these Coin-
er -e
„ were adjourned again and again for the purpose
pfanovving barristers of extensive practice, who hap-
ofn a
lo be
engaged in another place, the opportunity
bolus teeneic ;to address them. It was. he said, a note-
Pracdce ;
trio what did the public press say with
trgard to these unals, formed by that House, as ex-
tosdav in the Morning Chronicle? It was ne-
th-"srY that the House shined have a correct view ..f
ttlittlh°e's.
1; 6uub.lect, and he would quote to them what was said.
tele ta of
ie'fnugaiChlzrcle says—" It may be that counsel.
Committees make gold out of iron
art 0 !xeress train' haste ; peradventure also the fees
all proportion to the amount, intricacy, nr gilt-
thetbret of the business done; but titen it is not. for doing
taitesaullness eminent, eloquent, and able men are re-
fitt ae, but for overmasterine the Committee."—(Hear,th„r;•.? -Thus the House saw that the barristers controlled
ee;"tttaittee and made them decide, not in accord-
Wese with truth and justice, but in accordance with what
eLb,3°lntely contrary to either truth or justice. Coun-
%esrae,employed, it was admitted, fur the perpeee of
theft '''ering the Committee. isT•iw, what was the 1...-
1/34 Proposed ? It was this—" Elevate your Perlia-
likeie"'Y tribunal to the ietellectual station. of your Par-
the intarY bar, and the remedy for proineity, digitie.ness,
.ing irnduction of extraneous matter, and such shock,-
iquea44d law, that it can only he called Crowner s
per trila‘vl'
eiaitrfati thena by
Was near at hand. On matters of fiv.t., allow
alv '-'"tlittlittee the juror's province, but in matters of
a competent legal assessor,.havinv, DLLs!ge
P°werell'onsibility, and, of eouree, !ssuigen.g
'oat lir, in other words, they mu-t provide, out...
gentletnen who had sufficient intellectuality
:4,lllsee:ulre;tY, miad to contend with the hired barristers
surd on those occasions. This was a eon), tenet..
He did not sea it w•ge wholly untrue, but it,
c'ertigaiv netvery • en'elim uta,y. The ri-m4.1) for
eroneit - . - • d vi of exit at.:,..us
rata_ y, fliffu,ebe,s, intr.,. &male
a only
and such shocking bad law, that Lei_
11‘‘rt?v traenereer'ow tters"quest law,' was near at. fog
'quest law," indeed. lie surprised
't could- be spokendisreepectfull. of, because the
re w 3414, "Idle in- far,, get the law into such ill
h Hear, hear)—that now anther profes-.
tsea-, ad taken the office, it was a matter et
*tit--; difficulty for them to extricate it. Now Th.-
Ilhs`r w, ern. on to say, "It is not from any vulgar gr. tett-
e% 1;:i gain as is grossly and ignorantly inured that
ttesitel,` now waste the time of Committees in frtvelous
but it is because they level themselves down,
Ireash.4id. to the intelligence of a Parliamentary tri-
talie; , High in mete w . rdy, but low, very low. in
Jkliki, intelligence. Placing no reliance at all in ihe
ve•aa-d4tl discrimination of their judges." That was what
bti 14;14 by counsel. He believed this wes written by
Ire: instl—a man of great intellectual power, and a
JtelbeiCe," himself. "Placing no reliance at all tin the
eetta,4l' discrimination of their judger', Parliamentary
,
do undoubtedly often address to Committees the
Itbsep:ll!Poaterous propositions in law, and finding such
!attin lit,lee tolerated, contend for victory, and sometimes
nti in''',niten in the teeth of the law, of fact, and coin-
' whie*Chst.`ee." He very much feared that the proposal
'3leica. 41 been made would not prove to be of a less
• Ittelieelns character. Public
.opinion was adverse to
tres hei.Pation of that House with regard to railways. It
aZero ,leyed that there were men in that House who
foreTitsenally interested in speculations, that exilic
at `gent. and they were therefore decided upon,
%Id ktiecordance with the public good. Nething
the": more unfortunate for the character
%%el, leegislature than that such an opinion 'should
kerme:Y Prevail, but the feeling certainly was
e
PtaNi"k,,t, and he did not believe that any
i h"ale en Which had been made to that House
'tk th• cin the slightest degree the effect of midget-
. titinqsa,feeling So long as this tribunal was main-
-101;g would that House be doubted-50
;"*te u'n their decisions be impugned. In that House
to
the a„4l, no doubt, many who were personally interested
thnied-Penulations that were brought before them, but the
rn~ of Trade wee constituted of highly respectable
sii'moett Who, it was thotmht, were far removed from
Net ,test imptuation. Nevertheless, allusions lied
:,(le to the decisions of that Beard, and there were
,44,(1 no doubted those decisions whieh perticularle
t? railways. Now, as he had stated, it was
tlt
t"
Board would not be open to imputations,
IN It ,insinuations had been thrown out against it,
kitu; qtd not think it likely that the five or six COW
tnildsl),Pr"Posed by the Right Honourable Baronet
hi,n- name fortunate in escaping from doubt. New.
"et read an extract from a public newspaper called
eaterw"lf4• It was published by a highly respect
,„,1% verb ell-known }arson, and contained a statement
net ha, laerious character, It was with reference to
at b",en going on in railway matters, and he could
k'towttWaiting to remark that these things ought tee
appv4"(l duly eensidered bffore any Committee
ele'rn_t_cede,
tanal, in. fact, before
.anything. was done
tilin kr" o railways. The writer, in oinimentine
h „.t. (sladstene, the late 1ir....1/I.llt ~f t9e
Wa stated, " Thu there was io doubt,
t‘tlnti -a thereto b thw any oi.e
t • *ate
with thetair dof Trade
hlls s bßeard
Nelin tyre; ranee the appointment of Sir Jam, s
11,s "Its ei‘ Private secretary, a eireuris,,ance a sus
tp"tka,l47,llr.teter had (Tenn.. d. He (Mr. Wskle' )di •
di:VD tt(i now it was the R•ght g loteltarge et'e neme as in
• eet a because he belt Yard the Rieht Hon. Baronet
eat eXereise the remotest iefluence thw step 'int-
-arbor th
tt„leite a g"ntleraen to which allusion had been made
Itt‘ZtlY ht"e4l-) The writer *sent on to state, that
e, 4, ter the appointment of Mr. O'Brien. his
tF°rhittr:ail:::3o:ngaged by the South-Eastern Railway
titii;v_4B maziaeer. The standing orders requi,ed
de 411 Aet'Y companies intending to mak- applicatio,
Parliament in the next sessi should
15.,) en- I(o,l'4Plans With thelboard of Trade before thi.lstii
.
Sep' /he After that day, however, it was well
Uthi,s at thts order could not be complied with by the
qle 4,tern
%eh. thin 'me, anti, in consequence, it was imps
to re through Parliament in the next
Ate' ntetw• scanned a considerable fall In their shares,
111401.1,,,;:"!ttncling, towards the end of December,
to , teak 1 Increased his stock of shales by severef
fettte 17th t 4, ° the surprise of every reilwey speculato
eon .er . - report of the Board of 't rade on tate
eet:ldetiatios'es which they had had under their
ti4el appeared ; and in this report was
9 • the
Uit • Ole s name of the railway proposed
eicesid outh-Eastern Company, although it
'fit v'red to be entirely out of Court. The pro-
psYh . Was favourably reported, and on the following
at °nee we
sta arseN "s posted on the Stock Exchange in the
N or business, stating that if one hundred
tp they honew line sold at 8f premium were not taken
titt,res d be bought in by Mr. Scott. These
th' were
was 221. each, and it was conjectured
?It • Is was a /
asartteta had en•Y ad small portion of the quantity Mr.
t44,n,t,
or purchase. Now he asked the Right Hon.
*it! such a
statement as this could go forth to the public
here erue'n; the greatest possible injury upon the
Railway Board? if these statements
!Hahna 11°t put Railway
I,siderabla end to, it would involve the country
er the ifficulty. It was next to impossible,
,tateest, to
}lnverse circumstances in which they were
t',L°i,re the °Pe to make any proposition which should
I;salte. e„
egeneral concurrence of the House or the
41era,,e allele subject was one of difficulty, fir the
''d• IUVUIN.ed in it extended to every part of the
(4'' aced in these • •
tioatiee Pro difficulties as they were, he should
thr": foe he Placing a barrister in an official situa-
-114,"11 theeobenlise.ved it would be quite impossible to get
earristers ti;!less
kr•44' without %%lila would have to come before
'the, The lii seine legal gentleman at their
t Hon. Baronet was mere a friend to
04iseggestion an he was, and he trusted he would adopt
e/pcenee arid 'od appoint some person of legal ex-
tea' that „ee lily to the office. It was mon-
eipae
oir a' the present system a railway
Aci4ol:4 sjerael() not procure a Bill in that blouse ;
undred thousand pounds, fifty, sixty,
pengo. foe Hinlsilonstinel pounds, were ordinary sums
Pvtaetion he thought it was high thee a
r
ttetlld be introduced in this portion of their
ed lt was asked I
Olt trete , n the paper he had just
,• ' nt he would tfinl• of a en-
1r 4 m4"lng a. • h sg •
he (esot eYuit(,:e.J.ll-gce.(p;eLtluou
Benjamintthe Bte? gains of
inordinateßgu there
)4t, nty between the two eases; because in
413ene• munce ther
eWfli not that extravagant public
rOdi lo as the other. Why counsel were en-
ete es ore
que "s,
,:th" the Same time, four or five Com-
4tly
tee,. :aoluetimes inure. This rendered it fre-
et,...ief e„tirsso wry that one of them t•hould be adjeurned.
Zr.
ssti!lllett were thE public int•_req. But when
trett')ot serpri,,,paid to speak by the h stir or the day. he
sere:ir I,,quir ould use their inflaence to pro-
Ile said, then, it was n-cessary
" rea11,4.14 sheuldietle, deßs,one to remedy this, if they wished
4edi,-"re the c, dence of the public in their pro-
ItARAM said_Nothing was farther
out .4, than addressing the House on this ques-
ce.godeiee, h“:,,lttaine had been directly itaroduct d in the
therer two it necessary to trouble the blouse with
kto 1. ''e.nearks. Anus' had e, "In in
ti was th debates on railways,
poer ,t_r_s,,ttlirtne his name had been directly ihr:ctblyteevtnd-
yHeoaursse.h n
4 bad
durhinagd
thethe
d.
sBeaot to
atdi thirty
Fri , e 'Just! ess hrougeTh'
. „
objectin rising
ii bl~e
Ett,d
.I,riod he
pat
tanunacdetii.ve part in the
consideration,
to address the House

was to sine, that hese'• tit the whole course of his Purr
liamsntary (-rimer lid les ben connected' dirt etly
or indirectly elth iota, sailway eumpsny whatsor•v, r.
It: the reeir.e of the discuasien selt;ch lael taken place,
reference had bean nitlae to twa gentlemen eith w hem
he had hear, leap: ,inter. Both those I:eerie:pen, he,' beta
wamutissions in rite ern), ; and having :Ad:etc&
toad', their way in lite had found it Wet iticonsisteet wte
their honour er character tn form connexions with rail-
ways. 00e tif thns•- eendemen had beer: induced to gtea
up his crinnexien with tr. tativvav company, anti to accept
the °Mee if his (Sir_.L.Grahasn's) p. ivste secretsr s lie
(Sir J Graham) had entertained the hialtat op nion of
that gentleman's integrity stal ability, and he wits me
disappointed. Bet he (Mr. ('Brien) went from him (Sir
.T. Graham) to his present office ut the Board of Trude.
He (Sir .I. Graham) regretted his loss extremely. and
had nothing to de with his appaiatinent to that Board.
He was, howsvt r, appointed en the cendition that ithy
connexion which he had with railways airoald be ois-
staved. and that the shares which he possessed should be
sold ; and in the month or October last, as he was in-
formed by Alt-, O'Brien, that gentleman's shares were
sold. But it was understood that those who }lsla
the scrip or first allotment of shares, must eiso
the deed, and it was in that way the name
of Mr. O'Brien appeared now as connected
with the railway company. But he (Sir James
Graham) was assured by Mr. O'Brien, upon his
honour, that the sale of the shares was actually effected
in Otttober. The gentleman whose name was referred to
in the Economist newspaper, was not, the same, but his
brother, Ile also had served in the army, and was row
cot n reed with the South-Eastern Railvray, and b th
these gerith•men had given him (Sir James Graham)
the strongest assurances, upon their honour, that neither
directly nor indirt ctly had any communication been
made by either of them to the person alluded to. as
hating taken advantage of information obtained from
the Board of Trade. No one could regret more than he
did, that any such suspicion should arise as to the con-
duct of any person connected with a department of the
Government ; and he trusted the House would not think
that he acted improperly, it, on the first impulse. he had
risen to state the fscts as they were, as far; at least, as
he was cognisant of them, or concerned with them.—
(Hear, hear.) If there were any suspicions on the part of
any Member of the House with respect to the purity of
the conduct of either of those gentlemen, it was matter
of :tiquirte—(' !ear.) Let that inquiry he instituted, and if
they were not able to exculpate themselves to the satis •
faction of the House—alth,.ugh he had the highest
opinion of their honour and fidelity, he would say, let
• them stand or fall.—(Hear.) Still he would say, that,
their character, that the character of men who had
served with distinction and*credit, ought not to be whis-
pered away, when e direct charge could be made against
thorn, and if trite, be easily substantrated.—(Hear.)
Now, although he could runt apply to the llonettrehle
Gt rifleman apposite—(Mr a Wakley)—the• compliment
which that gentleman had paid to his Right Hon. Friend
at the lead of the Government. ; namely, that he had
made prectical and useful speech. h,• yet agreed With
him in much that he had said. Bet he • ould not agree
pith hint in ehat he .had sail on the anthority of the
Xl7O, nit y Ch,onicle, that the intellect and infOrmation
:he flote•e of Commons Wits below the intellect mad in-
format ion of th•• Bar, anti that its corniei tees ought to
b. elevated t • th-- standard of the pis-Cession with which
those tribunals had to contend -(lkar. hear.) With
respect to tae Comnettee of the Beard of Trade, h••
would oely rem; ttd the (louse that three of its nit-Wit:Ts
had • eervea with credit, Milt} with itl.vrttttebahle honour
e, the tissue, tint that the ether twe eetithers, who were
civilians, hsd always been n of in It e highest
terms by the other. side if the Heti,e.—(lie,r hear.)
But with respect to the Comtnittees of the. House, he
would reek. have we are ived :,t the day when the r, prs-
santativt s of the p• ople—acting Wore th- public and
in the face of day—were not oompot,lt to consider
questions of this kind?—(Hear. hear.) He Was of
',pinion that if these inquiries were cottcheited in such e
teanner as to bring. public opinion to hear upon them.
the difficulties would be evercome, aed the duty woulsl
be perform- d with satisfaction tit t.l.e pualie. As there
were in the Heusa so many Members of the 1. gal pro-
fession, he was ashamed rto say in their presence any-
thing in defence of the " lone robe," to which this
countra owed so much. But he eeuld tea avoid saying'
that, without the aid of the gentlemen of the bar, they
would not he able to conrinet the private business of Th..,
Committees with setisfaction to the country.—(Hoer,
hear) What would people say if tiles had net the
freest choice of the laeyers to whom they should en-
trust the care of their interests, if they were to be
bound by rules, and fettered in their selection of I. gal
advisers?—(Hear,. hear.) People thought themselves
entitled to have the ablest mete and to be left to their
own free judgment in . the choice. It was the
duty of the representetives of the people to. sacri-
fice their own time and convenience, rather than pre-
vent the gentlemen who were selected to explain
and defend private rights and interests from the fullest
advocacy of those who entrusted their affairs to their
advocacy —(Hear, hear,) With respect to the speeches
of counsel befora the Commitsees, he must say that he
thought they were limited as much as possible ; and, as
far as he had observed, an intimation from the chairman
was always sufficient to curtail a speech.—(Hear.) Ile
entirely concurred in the observations. of his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government. He thought that
the discussion would do good, and he could not regret
that it had taken place. lie felt that he ought to apolo-
gise to the House—(No, no)—but he could only say
that, situated as he was, anything that affected his public
character required the earliest and fullest explanation.
Mr. WAKLEY said that he had not read the paper to which
he referred ten minutes before he spoke; and, as he found the
name of the Right Wm. Baronet mentioned in it, he thought
he should have acted unjustly if he had not called his atten-
tion to it.

BROTHERTON said that as his Hon. Friend the
Member for Finubury had complained of the length of speeches
of counsel, he thought it only just to say that the length of
Members' speeches might more reasonably be complained of.
( A laugh.) He thought that every Member of the House who
was liable to be placed upon a Committee ought to do as he
did, that was, never to have anything whatever to do with
railway shares.
Mr. DA RB Y said that the working of Railway Committees
was very much improved, and he thought it no more neces-
sary to have a lawyer as an assessor than to have a medical
Inan.—( A ) He admitted that in some particular in-
stances long speeches were made. but when private interests
were involved it would be unwise to allow parties to go away
with the impression that they had not been able to lay their
whole case before the Committee.

Mr. WALLACE would be very brief in what. he had to
say. He had often served on Railway Committee., and 'he had
noti wed the marauvres of agents and c unsel to prevent a deci-
sion being come to, by talking on until it was announced that
the Speaker vuts in the chai .—( A laugh ) Bur if ever he
should be Chairman, he should adopt t` e practice that was fol-
lowed in the House of Lords, and appoint the adjournment at
nine o'clock. He was exceedingly glad that this discussion hid
taken place, as he believed it would call the attention of the
public to the subject. He would now withd aw the motion.
The motto*, was then, by have, withdrawn.
MEDICAL OFFICERS IN POOR-LAW UNIONS.
Mr. WA KL t Y rose to move for a return containing a de-
scription of the diplomas, licences, or other letters testimonial,
that are admitted and sanctioned by the Poor-law Commis..
sinners as legal qualifiea inns which eutitle medical practi-
tioners to be appointed medical officers of poor. law unions in
England and Wales. The Poor-law Amendment Act had ex-
cited the utmost confusion among medical men with reference
to the persens qualified to hold the office of medical officer to a
poor-law union. By that Act, power was given to the Poor-
law Commissioners of appointing and dismissing paitl officers;
and these, of course, included the medical officers. The Medical
Ass ciation of London had been constantly discussing the
subject, and much anxiety was felt amongst that hod .
In 1842 the Poor-law Commissioners endeavoured to re.. edy
the evil complained of, and a general order was issued. This
urder stated that any person holding a diploma from a sty of
the medical institutions of this enuntry was qualified for
the office of medical officer to a poor-law union, but the order
made nit mention of persons holding. dtplonvis front institutions
in Scotland and Ireland. All gut h persons were consequently
excluded and this had given great dissatisfaction in Scotland
and Ireland. Applications had been made to the Poor-law
Commissioners on the sutject, and in 1843 the question was
submitted to Sir Frederick Pollock, the then Attorney-Gene-
ral, and Mr. Martin, who gave it as t'eir opinion that any
person holding a diploma from any medical institution, either
in Scotland or Ireland, was eligible for the office to which he
had alluded. Now it was a curious circumstance that, not-
withstanding this opinion, the general order of l t'42 had never
been altered. The object of his motion, therefore, was to pro-
cure from the Poor-law Commissioners a clear and distinct
statement of the qualifications which were deemed to be neces-
sary to entitle any medical gentleman to hold the situation of
medical officer to any poor-I,w union.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it was not his intention to op-
pose the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. It was quite true
that the right of parties holding diplomas in Scotland or Ire-
land to practice in poor-law unions was a matter involving
some doubt. The Poor-law Commissioners were bound to
execute their functions in conformity with the law. Now,
although the opinion of the Chief Baron and Mr. Martin was
that persons holding diplomas in Scotland and Ireland could
practice in this country in poor-law unions, yet it must be
borne in mind that no person but a general practitioner could
hold the office of medical officer to a poor-law union ' • and as
the Apothecaries' Act excluded persons held:ng diplomas in
Scotland and Ireland, the Poor-law Commissioners, acting in
conformity with that law, of course excluded them. Now, it
so happened that this was one of the principal things which he
professed to remedy in the Bill for Medical Reform which he
had laid on the table, and he therefore was glad that the Hon.
Gentleman had alluded so prominently to this grievance. As
he had said before, he had not the least objection to the papers
which the Hon. Gentleman had moved for.

Mr. W A KLEY said that which had struck him most forci-
bly was, that no alteration had been made in the general order
of the Commissioners of 1842.
Sir JAMES GRAHAitIi said that his impression was that
an alteration had been made. The whole of the papers, how-
ever, should be produced.
The motion was then agreed to.
POOR LAW.

Captain PECHELL then rose to move for the return (or-
dered 25th July) of all union workhouses under the Poor.law
Amendment Act, in which the pauper inmates thereof are, or
have been, employed in grinding or crushing bones by means
of mills, machinery, or otherwise; together with the date of
such erection of mills or other machinery, and the names of the
chairman and vice-chairman of the board of guardians of every
snch union at the period ; also, the cost of the said bones, in-
cluding all expenses of carriage and other incidental expenses,
and the amount which the same have produced in their manu-
factured state, and whether the same have been sold by tender,
or fixed price, or otherwise. He had moved for this return
last session, and it had been faithfully promised by the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite. It had not, however, appeared.
He wished for this information in order that they might have
the opportunity of instituting a comparison between the work-
houses under the Gilbert Union Act and those under the
Poor-law Amendment Act. Although the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had distinctly stated that he was averse
to the use of machines for grinding bones in workhouses, yet
he (Captain Pechell) could assure the Right Hon. Baronet
that as late as ecember last, at one of the Bastiles in his neigh-
bourho it was the constant practice to grind bones, and an
additional mill for that puapose had been lately erected. It was
impossible for the Poor-law Commissioners to permit such
praetires to continue. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would, on that occasion, as he did at the conclusion of the
_ .

last session, express his dissatisfaction, when he (Capt Pechill)
had assured hini that he knew a un.on workhouse—he would

not say in what part of the country—in which a mi!l for grind-
ing bones still existed.
The question having been put,

' Sir J..GRA
.HAM said he could assure the Hon. and Gallant
Oro:* that be had eipreised to the Poor...law C,Ommissi,sners,
before the close of the last session, hia:earoekt dep.lri:thit if.to'gr
sidle the returns might bO ,fi!r ilse House rose ;
but it. was found po,stble to coMplete them in time He was
lAtiv to iiifoim him that they would, in three or four days,
b' presented to the House. He had no hesitation in declaring,
what he Lad !ready stated, that to him it was mater of regret.
that in poor-law union workhouses such a deacription of labour
as the crushing of bones should be uSed.7,(l-lears pee.) He
thought there w,-re many etrOltt!staiics which remiered it an
offen,ive ott.'Alpidloii.-4 Hear,. hear.) It •was imposs ble to
prevent a very disgusting smell ; and he repeated that it was
matter of regret to himself that this particular species of labour
should be &dilated. At the same time he was bound to
say that this was an illustration of local management. Not--
withstanding all the jealousy of the power of thtf trittithis:
sioners—the kings, as theywert House—
their authority' Was, IL aPpeitred very limited. It was not pre-
seritied by law that bone crushing should be the occupation of
the inmates of workhouses, much' less was it the wish of the
Secretary of State or the Poor-law COMmitsioners, either of
whom would, if they had the poiver, put an end to this kind
of occupation, but, he repeated, this was an illustration of
the working of local management apart from eentral. autherity.
local management and discretion Inelieckeds and Unil*eil by
any saperior power. -( Hears heat.) AL the law now siwod,
boards of geardians hid it right to employ the inmates of
workhottset In this particular manner. The evil continued
because there was no central control, and this was an illustra-
tion of the fact that the powers of the Poordaw Commissioners
might in some cases be beneficially extended.—( Hear, hear, )
Lord EBRINGTON said, as one who was conneeted With
a union workhouse where bones were trtislied by paupers, he
could not allow this subjea to pass without saying a few
words. If bohes were not to be crushed by paupers, it was
quite clear that they must be crushed by independent labour-
ers ; and he confessed it appeared to him a strange position to
lay down, that week which was too offensive for the one class
should be performed by the other.-•.-(" Hear, hear," from Sir
C. Lemon.) He rejoiced that there. Witt no legal power of pre-
venting the continuance of the prittit4,el fle felt convinced
that he had not beets a party to ordering an unjust, unfair, or
an unwholesolne einployment, and he hoped that the practice
would continue in union workhouses as long as bones were
crashed by independent labourers out of doors,
Captain PECHELL said, that if the Noble Lord hid been
in Parlsament when a petition was presented to that House
from an unfortunate pauper in a union workhouse, who was
brought to death's do r from the scandalous treatment which
he had received in a house where men vrr re sent to the bone-
mill as a punishment, he would not have assumed the position
which be had done that night.-4 Hears hear.) He hoped
that the Right Hon Baronet would 'tide an order for the sup-
pression oldie practice. In the workhouse which he had in his
eve, The guardians were, he believed, impressed with the notion
that they were fully carrying out the views of the Poor-law
Commissioners, and that this workhouse was, in fact, a patent
poor-law Bastile for the whole country. It was necessary that
the guardians should be made acquainted that they had trio
taken the opinion both of the fietretary or state and of the
Poor-law Commissioners.

Mr: WA ICLEY 'said he was really surprised to find such
Noble interest engaged in support of this system.— ( Laughter.)
This proved that it prevailed to to a fearful extent. He had
before thoueht that by some accident the atrocious practice
which had fallen under the notice of the Gallant Captain ex-
isted somewhere ; but he had now heard a Noble Lord rise in
that Howm and ask whether this labour was to fall upon the
pauper or %spoil the independent labourer ?—( Hear, hear. )
Why the Commissioners had more to do than he had imagined.
Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck and other Hon. Members. )
He was bound to admit they had been the protectors of the
members of this profession against the parsimony of the boards
of guardians ; and he should be disposed tb give them more
authority.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Hight Hm.
Gentleman the Secretary of State. after hearing what had
fallen from the Noble Lrird, o ght to ask for more authority
within forty-eight hours. —( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear,"
and laughter.) Were paupers to be employed In crushing
bones in a state of decomposition? Were they to be put to
this poisonous. filthy, odmus, and abominable occupation? and
was that ocetipation to be defended by a Noble Lord ?—( Hear.
hear.) The Noble Lord could not have spent any time in
the workhouse, t.at was quite evident. It was most distress-
ing to hear the Noble Lord make such remarks; and if he
sanctioned it in the union with which he was connected, he
fe red that a practice, or practices equally odious, prevailed
generally throughout the country. He did maintain that it was
nave-nary to refer to the Poor-law Commissioners for p..otec-
lion against practices of this nature. He had already stated
that the Poor-law Commissioners had protected the triembers
of his profession against the parsimony and illiberality of boards
of guardians; and he Would on a future occasion mention
union where a medical officer was dismissed by the guardians
on the ground of his being too liberal in giving food to the
poor ; though not a single instance of the kind had been brought
home to him, he was dismissed upon that ground. He was in-
formed the Poor.law Commissioners had no power to protect
individuals against the guardians ; but if any power had
etisted it would certainly have been a very proper case for
its exercise. He did not hesitate, then, to ask the Right
Hon. Baronet to apply, in the Bill he was about to introduce
that night upon the law of settlement, tor powers which
would give to the Commissioners sufficient authority to put
down the abominable practice of bone-grinding in union
workhouses.

Mr. ROEBUCK said he was not going to occupy the
time of the House with any remarks on the immediate sub-
ject then before the House; but' he could not help con-
trasting the opinion just expressed by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, with the sentiments to which he had been accus-
tomed to give vent on former occasions, both in that House
and out of doors..—( Hear.) It appeared that the Poor-law
Commissioners were not now such persons he had formerly
considered them to be—(Laughter)—as he called on the Right
Hon. Baronet not to let forty-eight hours pass without inereas.
in" their powers.—(Laughter.) Let the Honourable
Member and others who had joined with him in that
Let
ty
thheadlieuesesde
recollect how the Commissioners had been talked of as the
whichners.
irnesrpeefcetr,eeleeookto bthaeekpeto.r.ltahwe
Claenmgumaresesie
three tyrants of Somerset-house, and how the term " pinch
paupers" had been applied to them.—( Hear, hear.) Every
term, in fact, which could express contempt and hatred bad
been used by the Hon. Members ; and he would ask the Hon.
Gentleman, before he hastily expressed an opinion upon such a
subject, to place faith in those by whom the question had been
more accurately, calmly, and dispassionately considered. He
(Mr. Roebuck) spoke feelingly on this subject. He was one
of those against which the finger of scorn had been pointed, on
account of the-sup, ort which he had given to the new Poor-
law Bill, and he now directed his finger in scorn against the
Hon. Member opposite to whom he referred. There were per-
sons who cared not what opinion they expressed, so that it
suited the particular matter in hand. When it suited them
they could talk of the three tyrants in Somerset-house ; and,
again, for the same reason they would talk of increasing their
powers in forty-eight hours. That might be all very well, if
one, who indulged in mere talk for a particular purpose, to for-
ward a particular object—(Hear, hear)—but it did
not suit one - whose mind was impressed with a
sense of the great . duties and responsibilities which
rested upon his shoulders; one who was willing to meet not
only the feelings of hostility which might be exhibited on the
part of Hon. Members opposite, but even the hostilities of
friends, when he thought that his duty required it. His only
object in rising on this.occasion was to impress upon his Hon.
Friend near him (Mr. Wakley) and upon some other Hon.
Alembers opposite, the-duty-that lay upon them not hastily to
come to conclusions or to employ the arts of popular dema-
goguism. for the purpose of obtaining applause. He had seen
that night a signal instance—honestly given, he would allow
—by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, of an acknowledgment
of error, and he did hope that it could induce modesty in his
conduct, and modesty in the conduct of other Hon. Members
be-ides him< lf.—( Hear, and laughter.)
Sir C. LEMON said that as far as his own experience
went, he..had no reason to believe that this occupation was
particularly offensive or disagreeable to the paupers themselves,
or in any way. unwholesome. He was convinced that it was
no more disagreeable than the breaking of stones, ur any otter
kind of labour.. . If this labour were abolished. he believed that

. ..„
it would be difficult to find them sufficient employment.
Mr.. WA K LE Y said he did not know whether it was Par-
liamentary or not, that a Member, when he addressed that
House, should have improper motives imputed to him. It had
been stated by the Hon and Learned Member fot Bath that
he had made a statement for the purpose of obtaining applause.
He utterly denied it. He was as incapable of doing so as the
Hon Member himself, or any other Member. He had neve.
used any. language with regard to the Poor-law Amendment
Act out of . that House which he had not used in it ; and all
the expressions• which he had ever used in relation to the
povrers.of the Commissioners be was prepared to repeat. Al
he had stated was, that if this practice existed under the ope-
ration of the Poor-law Amendment Act, which his Hon. and
Learned Friend oupported, and which he (Mr: Wakley ) opposed
when it was brought into that House, he was prepared to give
the Commissioners powers to abate the nuisance. —( Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said he was certainly surprised at the for-
getfulness of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. He ought to
remember that the Poor-law Commissioners hail first taught,
and even compelled, the guardians to adopt the system of which
he complain. d. This species of employment had been intro-
duced as a check to any discontent on the part of the labourers.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD protested against the ap-
peal which had been made to the Right Hon. Baronet to in-
crease the powers of the Peor-law Commissioners. He did not
deny but there had been many abuses connected with bone-
, crustsing and other matters, but there were other means of re-
medying the grievance without increasing the powers of the
Commissioners, and to such a remedy as that he for one would
be extremely willing to resort.
POOR- L A WS—THE LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
Sir J.• GRAHAM said, that in rising to bring this important
subject before the House, he feared he couldnot put the House
in full possession of the Bill which he was about to introduce, if
he did not go through the reasons which induced him to make
the alterations which the Bill contained. The House would
recollect that he introduced a Bill on this subject last session,
and it was a melancholy fact, that no less then one-tenth of the
whole population of England and Wales required relief out of
the poor-rata in the course of last year ; that was to say, that no
less than 1,500,000 persons required relief in the course of the
year from this rate..--( Hear, hear.) He might state in various
ways the amount which had been expended in the
relief of the poor. He might state that since the
termination of the war in 1815—notwithstanding all
that had b en said about the neglect of the poor, of the neg-
lect of their duties by the rich towards the poor, notwith-
standing all the relief that had been dispersed by private
charity and their numerous charitable institutions, no less
sum had been paid from the poor-rate in this country since ,
the termination of the war, than 200,000,000/., amounting to
one-fourth of the capital of the National Debt. There was,
therefore, no doubt of the existence of great poverty and desti-
tution in the country, but in addition to this destitution and
this poverty, the question arose, should the poor now receive
relief in the place where they resided fur years, where they had
contracted habits and feelings of friendship, or whether those
associations should be broken? The House would pardon him
for thus introducing the subject, which was so intimately con-
nected with the feelings of so largo a portion of the people of
this country. , It was a subject of the greatest importance, and
one that required the greatest consideration, and it had diffi-
culties attending it, which rendered it a subject difficult to he
dealt with. Yet he was satisfied. conscientiously satisfied, that
important changes and modifications of the existing law of
settlement, in reference both to the interests and feelings of
the poor, was imperatively required.—( Hear, hear.) Ac-
tuated by that strong impression, he ventured to bring under the
notice of the House the Bill of last session, and those gentlemen
who were then present and attended to what he s iitl, could re-
collect that on the occasion of his laying the Bill of last session
on the table of the House, he stated that he hoped the Bill
would undergo free and full discussion during the recess, and
that he might receive the suggestions and the commentaries of
those who considered the measure. He had, accordingly. re-
ceived from various quarters suggestions and commentaries,
and it was now his duty to lay batore the House the result of
the best consideration and intelligence which he could apply
to them. In the Bill which he introduced last session there
were four prominent points. It would not be necessary for
him to go through those different points again, To two of
them no serious objection hat been urged. The two points to
which objections had been made related—the first, to the set-
tlement by birth. which it was intended should be not only
prospective but retrospective; the other referred to a five
'ears' industrial residence in one locality, which it was ) -
in-
tended should confer irremoveability on the person who re-
quired relief. To that part of the Bill which regulated the
removal of Scotch and. Irish paupers, no serious objections had
been urged. The objections taken to the two first

, ' ria--ma,
„iiiely-) the birth, settlement; airklll 'l4c/u°4e'
a 'iliti 'eptifecred byLa,.4ve, years', iochastri al, , .esidenee , /ere
a most ideptieil. First, it was awed: that considering to
large a nurober of persons as oue.tenth of the-whole pepulation
IT
required relief, those two regulations would give rise to a dislo-
cation of the whole system of the law which heretofore regn-
leed the right of .ettlemant. It was staved that it would shake
the indisputable rights of parties to be relieved under the law
fa it 'Mod at present in ttieir Vatashes; and Vioeld also nrodoce
s great deal of litigation as the necessary result. It was ob-
jected that in cases where the parish was in the handy of one, or
of a few individuals, it would induce those persons topull down
cottages, and to have recourse to a system which was better
known than in England by the terrible words the clearing of es-
tates, and to dr to the population, from their little hamlets and
' gattlqs. tAs lie totild hot pet those objectioiis ill a kiErifigef
liEht tnan they had bean urged in a memorial which he had re-
ceived from the union of Bedford, the House would permit htna
to read from their memorial. They stated with regard to the
settlement by birth, that they were of opinion the owners of the
principal parts of parishes would clear them of the population by
purchasing. or bUilding cottages adjoining tostriti and compel=
ling then! to halide there. 'Ube Balite objection the Memorialists
stated ap;led to irrethot4ahility by five years' indestrill resi-
dente. lie *as likill NI to state that the trieitioiialiiis had
clearly stated their objections, and that they were well worthy
of serious consideration. It was his wish to meet those
objections, and having given the subject all the reflection in
his power, he was not prepared any longer to propose that a
retro-active effect should be given to the !awe of settlement.
What he now proposed to Klatt Was to take Act at the passing
of the Act: He confessed that he sat great disidVantages hi
liihi•ihg the Act to a prospective operation only, but the late
regulation, which required the place of birth to be mentioned,
would hereafter afford increased facilities with regatd to the
settlement by birth. When on the fattier (semi-lob he ad-
dreesed the Howse oh the subject, he stated that it was clear
that in the aggregate the ihtereists of the towns and of the
country were idehtieal) bet in details tile!' as they tteria hot
dealing Willi there itas 'Certainly a clashing between their in-
terests. It was quite clear that the birth settlement was in
favour of the towns, at the expense of the rural districts, and for
this very obvious reason, that the opportunities for labour
which the towns afforded, attracted the redundant population
of the country, but then, destitution eaten upon thetti they
yilptawnhitchhe caouitilviery.yeatu.t on the other hand,
industrial residence
wore
irtrherrotvteabblit
would confer, would be in favour of the country at the eupense
of the towns ; for the poor of the rural districts being
attracted to the towns by the greater demand for labour there,
would hate acquired the right of relief by five years' residence.
If, thereibre, he was compelled to forego the immediate enact-
ment of birth 'settlement, and not to bestow on rural districts
anything which had been contemplated, he was bound also not
to impose upon the towns the extra burthens he had alluded to.
On the whole he was disposed to forego those two portions of
the measure he had introduced last session, namely, birth set-
tlement, and five years industrial residents:: He hoped the
House *ouid pardon him if he called its attention to the great
advantages which the six other limitations he intended to in-
troduce would confer. Every woman during her marriage,
who should be liable to be remoied upon her husband's death
to his parish, would not be subject to that removal. Every
illegitimate child, under the age of 16, who would be liable to
be removed to the parish where the ' father had 8 set-
tlement, would hot be liable to such removal.
Every child under 16, being a bastard, who would be
liable to be removed to the parish where its mother had a set-
tlement, would not be liable to such removal; ar.d no widow
who at the time of her husband's death resided with
him, should be liable to be removed from the parish where she
was residing, until the expiration of one year after her hus-
band's death, Sb that the widow who, it the time of her hus-
band's death, was residing with him in the parish in which he
was settled, would not be liable to be removed therefrom ; and
no widow or her children, though born in Ireland or Scotland,
could after her husband's death be removed from the parish
where the husband resided till after the ekpiratidn of a certain
period.. tlo that, in fact, the greatest advantage was given by
they measure to the Scotch and Irish paupers. He now came—
having stated the alterations in the measure of last session that
were proposed—he now came to what appeared to him
a most important coodition—so important, that if the House
permitted him to introduce it, he should ei.nsider it necessary
to ask the House to permit of sdme little delay between the in-
troduction of that Bill and the second reading. He had stated
on a former occasion that no working man in this country
reached the age of forty without experiencing the injustice of
the law of settlement. What was the cause of this) and what
was the re-ult ? Why, labour did hot circulate freely in Eng-
land. Now, he thought it would be of great advantage to
the poor man, and no disadvantage to the rich one, if they
were to proceed to reduce the restraints on the circulation of
labour. He thought there could be no objectio.: to the adop-
tion at once of th • colon settlement.. If he could induce the
House to substitute union for parochial settlements, that would
reduce the injustice of the law of settlement as it at present ex-
isted. There wasnothing new in parochial settlements, but there
was in union settlements. By the late Act which was introduced,
it was provided that the union should be considered part of the
same parish. If the proposition he was about to make was of
any value, it must be general. The House would perhaps
allure him to read the mode in which he proposed to effect it.
But, perhaps, before he did so, it would be better that he
should sustain his proposition by various authorities, both in
town and country, all of whom agreed with the proposition he
was about to make. He would not advert to all the authorities
he had upon the subject, but the House would perhaps pardon
him if he mentioned four. In Norfolk the guardians of the
Briden union had come to a resolution that all parochial settle-
ments were bad in principle, and taxed the poor man most un-
justly ; and that, in order to avoid the evil, parochial settle-
ments should be abolished, and all districts should be formed
of the whole union. The overseers and leading officers of the
Manchester union stated, that whatever course the Le-
gislature might take in reference to this important mat-
ter, they would strenuously urge upon them the mak-
ing of all the towns and unions as one. He would
now read an extract front a report of Mr. Hall, the
Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, charged with the superin-
tendence of the Metropolitan distr.et. He sayi—" Much diffi-
culty that is expected to follow the administration of the new
Bill will be done away with, if settlements were made not pa-
rochial, but to relate to the union." He should trouble the

House only with one more extract, and that was from the very
able report drawn up by persons most conversant with this
particular subject, whoa experiende and opinions were entitled
to the utmost respect. That extract was a list of the unions
the clerks of which had assembled to discuss this sub-
ject. These unions were Altringham, Bolton, Bake-
well, Burley, Charlton-en-Medway, Congleton, Huddersfield,
Kendal, Manchester, Macclesfield, Preston, Stockport, Stoke-
upon-Trent, West Derby (which included Liverpool), Bur-
storr, and some others; the opinions of the officers of all these
unions were. in favour of his proposal. Thus he had argu-
ment in support of his proposition ; he had practical autho-
rity in favour of it, and unless he deceived himself, he thought
the House could not, by any single measure, more consult the
interests, and as he believed the feelings and happiness of the
poor, than, by receiving this proposition. He was con
&lent that no one measure would so much restrict the
probability of frequent removal, and allow labour
to circulate so freely as the measure he propounded. It only
remained for him to state shortly the exact mole in which he
proposed that the measure should be carried out. He proposed
that, wherever a parish or township was included in a union,
all existing and future settlements should be deemed to be, not
settlements of that parish or township, but of the union in
which they were included. In that union all removals should
in future be conducted by the board of guardians, and net
by the parish officers. That was a point on which he mainly
retied as certain to produce the humane effects he antici-
pab d. Instead of the narrow, bad, and selfish
interests of parish officers, the local feelings, and, he
way bound to say, the Barrow prejudices of these officers, the
question of removal would be submitted to the board of guar-
dians. All facts would be freely discussed by several persons,
and those possessing the most confidence to decide on them.
and without that pinching and harsh desire to cut down to the
utmost the charge upon each small parish. All appeals in the
same manner would be conducted by the board of guardians on
behalf of the, union, He Was Sorry he had been obliged to
trespass at such length on the attention of the House, and he
had now only to state that all the cheeks and arrange.
ments incidental to the trial of orders of re.
moval, provided -by the Act of last session, should
be left unchanged, though all the power of the. parish
officers in respect of removals would be transferred to the
guardians, just as all discretion would be taken from the parish
authorities and transferred to the Board. It might be said that
in the midst of the vicissitudes of trade, the alterations of ser-
vice. gross injustice might be done to some districts in conse-
quence of those changes, unless some precautions were taken.
But he proposed that the expenses should be shared by all the
parishes of a union, in proportion to the average of their popu-
lation for the last seven years, ending at Lady-day,
1844. As
regarded the equity of this arrangement up to the present
time, he thought it amounted to demonstration that it could
anticipated
not be impugned. The only argument he
was a retrospective one. founded on the fluctuations of trade.

. _
But his proposition as it now sTood.n.ouidnot, in point of fact,
increase in the least the hardships arising from the operations
of trade. It was quite true that the tide of manufacturing
enterprise had left some districts and gone to others. That
it had left the Wiltthire district and gone to the North, leaving
the former much embarrassed and depressed. But they could
not prospectively take precautions against these fluctuations of
tiade ; but up to this moment he maintained that in stch an
arrange .-ent as he proposed, there was nothing to increase the
hardships inciden al to these fluctuations. He should weary the
House if lie dwelt at greater length on this question, the more
particular details of which would be discussed on future occa-
sions. But he still thought the Hill was one which he was
justified in submitting to the consideration of the House. He
certainly should not presume, if the House permitted him to in-
troduce the measure, to press the second reading till the
House had had ample time to consider the propo-
sition. and he had himself an opportunity of collecting
opinions upon it. But at the same time he felt a confidence
that the merits of the measure would recommend it to all those
whose humanity led them to promote the well-being of the poor
—to all those whose justice impelled them equally and fairly to
distribute that charge which was by right levied from the rich
for the support of the poor—and to the humane and just of the
community at large—he commended the meaaure,believing that
if well and fully considered it would be found not unworthy of
the attention of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He moved for
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law of settlement.
Colonel WOOD took the earliest oppor unity of
expressing his •regret at the purport of the latter
part of the Right Honourable Baronet's statement.
He would give the Right Hon. Baronet all credit for the atten-
tion he had given to this subject, and many points of his propo-
sition were worthy of the consideration of the House. No
doubt the Right Hon. Baronet thought the measure was cal-
culated to benefit the poor, but if adopted, instead of being any
benefit te the poor man, it would be the greatest injury ever
inflicted upon him. The consequence would be, that all
anxiety to employ the poor in their own parishes would cease.
Labourers would be discharged, and without scruple thrown
for support upon the union. Whenever a time of difficulty
arose, vast numbers would be thrown on the union rate
because it was not a local one. It had been stated that there
had been no parochial rate up to the time of Charles 11., but
the fact was, that up to the time of Elizabeth, three years' re-
sidence entitled a man to parochial relief, and by the 39th of
Elizabeth persons could be sent back to the parishes in which
they had resided for one year. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet had felt it his duty to give up that part of his
Bill which gave .a claim for relief on the parish
where a man had resided for five years. He (Colonel
Wood) gave notice that he should introduce a clause by which
every poor man resident in a parish for one year should be en.
titled to relief as casual poor. The proposal of his Right Hon.
F. iend that birth alone should give a title to settlement would
not at all remove the complaints now made by the poor.
The pour man now complained that be might bring up a
large family in one parish, by many years' labour, aad then be
thrown upon a parish in which he was a total stranger. But
that would he precisely the case now, if _the principle of birth
alone was adopted. A poor man might be removed to a
strange place under this Act as well as by the former system.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that there were reservations in the
power of making such removals
Colonel WOOD said he was aware that there were restric-
tions on such removals, but he thought that if residence gave a
man a title to relief it would prevent much difficulty and
hardship. There era: another circumstance which fully entitled
the labourer to a settlement. Formerly, every man that paid
poor-rates obtained a settlement in the parish in which he was
rated, and he certainly thought that if they obliged the poor
man to pay poor.rates, that should at least entitle him to a set-
tlement in the parish to which he paid them. To make the
poor belong to a union and not to a pariah, would entirely

-

' destroy all the care which the parish had ever exhibitel tcrsiavik
its destitute poor. He sincerely wished that the residents in a
parish, should be entitled
,to, a. settlement ; and, if this law were
passed, he sh.-Ad pr,.pose a clause .I;y,whiCh, those versons who
resided in a parish should oe reeLtd. di ^tsual poor, and not
passed out of it.
Mr. BRIGHT said that he quite agreed with the Hon. and
Gallant Member that the remedy proposed was not commen-
swte, with theenent of the evil, and he hoped that there wus
an intiinaticn manklAd .'setitsy to ,ltptleatolr to arrive
at a better solution of the question than thatliicli igak pfe
mis,d them by the Right. Hon. Baronet He had considerable
experience of the feeling existing in the manufacturing
counties of England, and he could assure the Ho-
nourable. and Gallant Member that the mode of
pr_l4.ters to distant ftis vietted with suspicion
and dislike by a great Majority of thi PEople; inA thet clause
certainly would meet with the most strenuous opposition frOm
all parts of the kingdom. It might not be known to the Hon.
and Gallant Member that in many parts of the country the
proprietors were melt anxious that not more labourers than the
land could well support should reside tipai it, end the number
was in many eases exceedingly small, as the soil was bad, and
then the landlords tried all sorts of mancauvres to prevail on
the laboufefi to rattle in the neighbouring townships. He
( Mr. Bright ) lived in a township Which pelid for roor-rates in tke
proportion of some Ad. or Is. in the pound, and sometimi; ago it
became the duty of the relieving-officer of the county to send
a labourer and his family back to the union of Frith, near
Richmond in Yorkshire. So soon, however, as it was known
there that there bad been issued at. order for hit removal, the
Man received from the clerk to the boarci of guardians to which
the union belonged, a letter inclosing a Post-office order for
205., and requesting him to pass from the township about to
ferobvii Mesa eh the bordert into the next one. He held the
letter in his hand, addressed to Anthony Trapp (as we caught
it)--and it said, " I send you this letter enclosing 201., atd
wish you to remove into the next township." At a future
peribd the men and his family were removed, at a
gr, at expense to Yorkshire by railway, and the
guardians of the union house there *efe then sit-
ting at the time of their arrival. The relieving officeen
returned, but he had not retraced his steps above one or two
miles, when he was overtaken by the pauper family on their
tray back to Rochdale, the guardians not having had the pau-
pers in thir possession, if he thighs say so, more than two hours
than they began to bargain with them to go back to Poch-
dale ; and they prevailed. Back they did come, and resided
there fore some three days. He confessed that, with such a
mass of pauperism in the country, it was most difficult to settle
the la* it ill. It etas frost Unjust, then, that means should be
given to tile landed proprietors to expel the labourers from the
land, in order that they might settle in townships for a time,
and so obtain settlements there. He should not object to sup-
port the labourers so thrown upon them; but such were the
fluctuations of trade, that they were frequently compelled
to refer back to the parish to which they belonged, those who
in prosperous times had keen employed by them. The night
lion. liitrofiet spoke of the mode in which he intended to fix
the rate in support of these Unions for the future. He (Mr.
Bright) thought that the fairest plan would be to rate the
townships and parishes at that which they had paid for the
seven years preceding the passing of this Act. The rate
would press unduly upon some parts of the country, for there
were parts of it where from generation to generation the popu-
lation had not in any way increased, while others
that now had no rate and no population, might
in twenty years. or even in ten years, if they had
large manufactories established, or coal mines opened, in-
crease, and so require for the sustentation of their paupers very
great changes in the mode of collecting the rates for that
purpose. He was inclined, therefore, to think that that part
of the Right Hon. Baronet's Bill should be materially altered.
He was not, how,ver, disposed to find fault with the Bill. He
admitted that from the gigantic nature of the evil, they ought
to give any measure calculated to lessen it their most serious
consderation.

Mt HENLEY must be permitted to say that a measnre
for the purpose of charging completely the old parochial sys-
tem ought to be received with very great caution, It was
somewhat singular that for such a great evil the Right lion.
Baronet should have prepared such a very small remedy.
What the poor man warted was, the ability to bring his labour
to the best market He entered his protest against a measure
which would break up the parochial system of England.
Mr. BROTHERTON was of opinion that a fair rating
within the union was the most acceptable mode of rating. He
was very much disposed to think that this was a measure very
much needed, and which would give general satisfaction. He
would certainly offer no opposition to its passing into law.
Colonel WOOD explained.
Lord EBRINGTON wished to impress on the attention of
the Right Hon. Baronet the fact, that in almost every union
there were a large number of small holders who were not sub-
jected to rates, but who Increased the burden of the rate-

jpayers. He approved of the measure generally, and
thought it would confer a great boon on the coun-
try. He was glad to hear the Right Hon. Baronet
give commendation to a much-maligned class of men, political
economists, and hoped that pr aise would be extended to the
Poor. law Commissioners, and their Secretary, Mr. Chadwick,
who had done so much to advance the cause of charity. He
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would direct his attention to
the education of the
.poorer classes, and modify the limitations
regarding the education of children, which were at present at-
tended with very bad remits.
Mr. BECKE TT DENISON thought. the House shout
feel grateful to the Right Hon. Baronet for this measure.
Nothing could be more absurd than the present law of settle-
ment. A man might be removed to a parish which he
never heard of, and in which he had no relations er friends.

In many eves this was the true way of making them
paupers for life. He did not think the proposed mea,ure went
more than half-way, and this was the chief
objection which could be urged against it.—( Hear. )
He was glad that the time had been reduced so mach ; if the
time had been still further reduced he would have been glad of
it; had it been reduced to three years he should have been still
better pleased; had it come down to two years, and one year,
it would still be more satisfactory to him; but he would have
been completely satisfied If thcre were no limit to the period at
all.—( Hear.) But under all the circumstances he would say
he approved of the present measure, and would give it his most
cordial support.
Sir J. GRAHAM was glad to And that the House had so
favourably viewed the measure ; but he should say he was
somewhat surprised to hear the objections of his two Hon
Friends behind him. He did think it was not an unreasonable
proposition that a modification should be made in the settlement
period, and that where a poor person was found residing, there
he should find relief if he were in want of it. The Hon.
Baronet then called attention to the enactments of Charles 11.
in reference to the poor-law provisions conferring a settlement
claim, by which it appeared that destitute persons found wan-
dering about should be sent back to their native parishes, in
which they were held to have had a settlement if they had
lived there forty days. He next called attention to the Poor-
law Amendment Act, which, he said, had done away with
parochial relief, and instituted union relief instead. With
regard to the question of the establishment of schools in large
towns, he could assure the Hon. Member opposite that the
question had occupied his attention very closely last year.
District schools had been established by way of experiment,
and he was not yet prepared to say what the result would be.
Mr. WAKLEY begged to say he did not assent to the pro-
visions of this measure, for he looked upon it as one that would
operate in a very extraordinary manner upon the social coedi-
tion of this country, for it would, for instance, perpetuate the
power of the Poor-law Guardians.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He understood the taunting cheer of the Hon. Member for
Bath---(A laugh)—it was one of his peculiarities. and he (Mr.
Wakley) understood it. But, nevertheless, he would still
contend for it, that the powers of the guardians should not be
increased. He could say that he knew of one union where
neither the public, the rate-payers, nor the press were admit-
ted, while the guardians were discussing the admission of the
paupers. Therefore he would say it was dangerous to give
the-e guardians more poi %er ; and he would conclude by again
repeating that he was opposed to the measure.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
TURNPIKE ACTS.

Lord EBRINGTON apologised for having so often tres-
' passed upon the attention of the House that evening ;
but he begged to call attention to that present
state of the law as affecting turnpikes, upon which
he had several petitions to present, and amongst
others, to that of the South Moltou turnpike. He did
not know whether the Government intended resuming their
former measures, or whether they intended to introduce a ge-
neral Bill on this subject. The Right Hon. Baronet when he
first introduced the measure. stated that it was to be tried in
South Wales as an exper.ment, and if it succeeded they might
look tor its extension to England. The measure was not favour-
ably spoken of ley the creditors of the turnpike trusts, and he
could not help thinking that some limitation ought to be given
to it. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow him to
bring in a Bill on the subject he should be glad. The measure
he contemplated introducing was to limit the exemption from
tolls only to such a number of mails and horses as might be
thought reasonable and necessary for the public i.ervice.
Frequently the number of letters to be transmitted
was exceedingly small, but nevertheless small though the
number was, it served to exempt four horses and a coach from
the payment of toils. In cases of this description he should
propose to limit the exemption to a cart and horse. Under
these circumstances, he would leave the matter in the hands
of the Government, merely requesting, that if they would not
allow him to bring in the Bill himself, at least they would give
the subject some consideration. He moved for leave to bring
in a Bill to discontinue the exemption of mails from paying toll
on turnpike-roads.
Mr. MORRIS seconded the motion. He thought some of
the burden ought to be taken off the farmers and placed on
them who were more able to bear it. He hoped the Noble
Lord would succeed in his measure, and he tegretted to hear
him say that he did not expect the co-operation of the
Government.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
dive the Hon. Gentleman who last spoke the satisfaction of
hearing that. the Government would co-operate with the Noble
Lord. Whatever the inconvenience might be to the turnpike
trusts and the parishes through which mail coaches passed,
that was more than compensated by the advan-
tages which the district derived from the Post-office
communication. The exemption of the mails from toll had
been established in 1785, and, if it were to be removed, many
districts must be excluded from the advantage of receiving
letters direct from the post-office. If the Bill were to pass into
a law, the country would have imposed upon it a burden of
more than 50,000/. a year for the advantage of particular
districts.

After a few words in reply from Lord EBRINGTON, the
motion was netzat;ved without a division.

Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition for the Scottish
Central Railway.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock.

RAILWAY BUSINESS IN PAR-
LIAMENT.
MONDAY, FEB. 10, 1845.

The following Petitions for Railways hills were presented,
and ordered to lie on the table:— _ _

Blackburn, Burnley, Accrington, and Colne Extension
Railway—Manchester South Junction and Altrinchvm Rail.
way—Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway—
Clydesdale Junction Railway.
Petitions for the following Bills (presented on the sth of
February) were referred to the Select Committee on Peti-
tions for Private Bills :
Monkland and Kirkintilloch Railway—Wakefield, Ponte-
fract, and Goole Railway—York and Scarborough Railway
Deviation—Manchester and Leeds Railway—Manchester and
Leeds Railway (Burnley Branch and Oldham and Heywood
Extension)—Ashton, Stalybridge, and Liverpool Junction
Railway (Ardwick and Guide Bridge Branches)—London
and South-Western Railway, No. 1 (Metropolitan Exten-
sion)—Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth Rail way—
Edinbui gh and Glasgow Railway—Caledonian Railway—
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway—Manchester and
Birmingham Railway (Ashton Branch)—Leeds and West
Riding Junction Railway—Richmond (Surrey) Railway—
West Yorkshire Railway—Leeds, Dewsbury, and Manchester
Junction Railway.
Also the following. Mils presented on the 6th February:—
Norwich and Brandon Railway Deviation and Diss and
Dereharn Branches—London and York Railway—Leeds and
Bradford Railway Extensioa (Shipley to Colne)—Glasgow
Junction Railway—Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr
Railway—Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railway—Hull and
Selby (Bridlington Branch) Railway.
The following Bills were likewise presented February 7
Cockermonth and Workington Railway—Whaby and