The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-30 00:00:00

BYRON V. COOPER.

The argumentsin this case were concluded to-day,
and their Lordships postponed their judgment.
IRISH PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES.

THE QUEEN V. MILLIS. THE QUEEN V. CARROLL.

This case stood in the paper for final judgment to-
day at half-past four o'clock. It will be recollected
that some time since their Lordships stated their opi-
nions on the matter seriatim ; three of them being in
favour of the validity of the marriages, and three against
it. At the hour appointed the Lord Chancellor, Lord
Brougham, Lord Cottenham, Lord Campbell, and Lord
Camoys, were in attendance. Shortly before five o'clock
the Duke of Wellington entered, and after some con-
siderable consultation between the Lord Chancellor,
Lord Brougham, Lord Campbell, and Lord Cottenham,
Lord BROUGHAM moved that the judgment of the
Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland, declaring the first
marriage illegal, should be reversed ; whereupon the
House divided, when there appeared, for the reversal, 2,
against it, 2 ; the effect of which will be that the judg-
ment below will stand, by which it was declared that
the first marriage was invalid.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'Clock.
IRISH PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, as the opinion of
the House on the case of the Queen v. Millis and the
Queen v. Carroll had been such as to affirm the opinion
of the Court below, he should move for the re-appoint-
ment of the Committee on the Irish Presbyterian Mar-
riage Law, with a view to legislating upon it.
Lord CAMPBELL fully agreed that legislation upon
this subject was indispensable, for, according to the forms
of the House, the judgment of the Court below had been
affirmed. The judges had been equally divided in their
judgment, and when this equality existed, it was consi-
dered as a decision in the negative ; but the law re-
mained by such judgment in an unsettled state.
Lord COTTENHANI could not agree in the opinion
just expressed, because the judgment which had been
given was, to all intents, a judgment of the House, and
that judgment of course asserted and settled what the
law was. He quite agreed in the propriety of having a
Committee to consider an alteration of the law.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the decision which
had been come to was, in fact, an affirmance of the deci-
sion of the Court below.

Lord BROUGHAM considered it was necessary to
have a Committee, with a view to legislative interference,
without delay.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Messergers from the Commons brought up the Guild-
ford Branch Railway Bill, the Norwich and Brandon
Railway Bill, and another private Bill.
CRIMINAL LAW.
_ _

Lord BROUGHAM said, that at the time he held the
great seal a Commission was appointed to inquire into
the state of the criminal law of this country. A report
bad been published by that Commission, which report
constituted a digest of the whole criminal law of this
country. It did not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but
it was a code of criminal law in England, excluding
procedure. A code of criminal procedure was intended
to follow. He had, therefore, drawn up a short Bill
founded upon the report, and he now presented it to their
Lordships, and prayed them to give it a first reading,
and he hoped the Government would take the Bill into
their consideration, and give it the support it deserved.
Lord CAMPBELL said he felt some apprehension on
account of the somewhat irregular mode in which his
Noble and Learned Friend had introduced the Bill. He
certainly thought, when his Noble Friend rose, that he
intended to introduce the Bill on the part of the
Government. He (Lord Campbell) was extremely glad
that the Bill had been introduced ; and he would
have been glad to have heard his Noble
and Learned Friend say he introduced it on
the part of the Government, for he knew that the Bill
could never be carried out unless it was zealously sup-
ported by the Government. It would appear, however,
that the Government had not yet even seen the Bill.
He hoped, however, that they would take it up, and that
this country would no longer be the only nation in
Europe without a criminal code.
. . . _

Loi.d BROUGHAM could not allow his Noble and
Learned Friend to say that this was an irregular pro-
ceeding. His Noble and Learned Friend forgot that
the report of the Commissioners on this subject was a
public one, and had been published fifteen months, and
had been in the possession of every Member of both
Houses of Parliament.

Lord CAMPBELL explained.
POOR-RATES (IRELAND.)
The Earl of CLARE presented a petition from
Limerick complaining of the mode of assessment for the
poor in that district. The Noble Earl presented also a
petition from Limerick praying for a Bill to improve the
sewerage and the arrangement of the streets in that city.
The Noble Earl presented also a petition for a tax upon
absentees.

IRISH MAGISTRACY.
The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to call the
attention of their Lordships to a recent appointment to
the magistracy in Ireland, to which his cwn
attention was not called until this day. He
objected to the appointment of Mr. O'Brien as a
stipendiary magistrate, because only a few years ago he
was a violent Repealer. True, he might have altered
his opinions ; and if this was done in a way to prove
that it bad ben done in sincerity, he certainly did not
see that office should be barred against a gentleman.
intention not to give any of the patronage of the Crown
in the direction of those persons who were declared and
known Repealers. And the fact was, that this gentle
man's reason for abandoning repeal was such as to dis-
entitle him to any credit for his conduct; for, from his
extreme vehemence in the cause—from the lengths to
which he went in support of it, the heads of the Repeal
party had refused any further co-operation with him.
This was the cause of his secession from repeal. He had
first abused all those who were against repeal, and then
all those who, like himself, had been in favour of it, but,
unlike himself, had been more discreet and decorous in
their support of if. He should leave it to the Govern-
ment, now they were made acquainted with the character
and conduct of this gentleman, to correct an appointment
which they must feel was not a proper one. The return
he had moved for lately did not include this objection-
able appointment, and he should therefore move
that the return be completed to this day, with
the date of the last appointment made by the
Government, of a stipendiary magistrate.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said if the Noble
Lord who had just sat down thought that this matter
would he allowed to rest in the manner which the tenor
of his speech indicated he was much mistaken. He (the
Marquis of Clanricarde) intended himself to submit,
after notice, a direct motion to their Lordships, because
he thought there was nothing of more importance than
to have the administration of justice beyond suspicion in
Ireland. The passing over of so many gentlemen, who
had been connected with this particular branch, and who
bore the highest characters, and selecting Mr. O'Brien,
could not but tend to bring into contempt the adminis-
tration of justice. He stated those facts merely to show
that when Government professed ignorance of the sub-
ject that it was only a reiteration of their old defence,
that they never read the newspapers. Now all the Irish
newspapers teemed with this matter—but, strange to
say, the " Government paper" (if that word were allow-
able) had not taken the slightest notice of this appoint-
ment. Ile wished to say nothing disrespectful of Mr.
O'Brien, but he trusted that the Government would find
some other situation for him besides one which would
tend to injure the respect in which the administration of
justice should be held.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought that the allu-
sion about reading the newspapers was unfounded and
baseless. He had never heard that Mr. O'Brien had
been named in any prominent manner before. It would
be much better, he thought, if notice had been given of
this motion by the Noble Lord opposite.
Lord BROUGHAM thought the best mode of putting
down repeal was by promoting those who were the most
violent in support of it. In the year 1834, a Right Hon.
Gentleman, who was then a Repealer, and who was one
of the tellers on a motion for repeal, was, instead of
being persecuted for his opinions by the Government,
promoted to the office of Vice-President of the Board of
Trade, and they had heard no word about repeal from
him since. When that appointment was made they
heard no objection to it from anybody on account of the
Right Hon. Gentleman's opinions. Now, no doubt the
Government had dealt in the same manner with Mr.
O'Brien. He had been appointed, doubtless, after giving
up his unalterable opinions, and he (Lord Brougham)
had no doubt that many others would give up their
equally unalterable opinions, if they had an equally
strong reason for doing so. God knew that anything
relating to the dispensation of justice was a serious mat-
ter, and anything relating to the management of the
trade of the realm was a serious matter ; but, still, if
the Government thotrght that persons were qualified for
those offices, they were right in appointing them.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, if Noble
Lords opposite could show that Mr. O'Brien was a fit
person to be appointed, he should be contented to have
ills motion negatived.
The Marquis of NORMANBY thought that the best
mode of putting down repeal was by means of promo-
tion,
tnough the Government entirely forgot it when they
superseded local magistrates, on account of their repeal
opinions.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said that, when
Mr. Sheil was appointed to the office of Vice-President
'of the Board of Trade, no one complained of the ap-
pointment. Why, did the Noble Lord forget the out-
cries that were made respecting it, at what were called
Conservative gatherings, which took place about that
time ?—(Hear, hear.) He (the Marquis of Normanby)
could not conceive that any opposition would be made to
the motion, which he did not think was either unusual
or irregular.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE did not so much object to the
motion itself as to the irregular and uncourteous manner
In which it was brought forward.
_ The Earl of RIPON did not complain of the Noble
Marquis making the motion, but he did complain of
the speech, which was very violent.—(Hear, hear, and
cries of" No, no.") The gentleman who was speaking was
not always the best judge of his own violence.—(Hear,,
hear, and a laugh.) The speech of the Noble Marquis
was a bitter attack upon the Government -and upon the
Noble Lord who was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It
was quite impossible that a Government could vindicate
itself upon such questions withciut notice. He did not
object to the motion, but to the want of notice.
After a desultory conversation, the motion was
agreed to.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose, pursuant to
notice, to present a petition respecting the state of Ire-
land. This petitiOn was signed by many Peers, and by
s majority of the representatives of Ireland in the other

House of Parliament. He should move that the peti-
tion should be read at length ; and he trusted that the
moderate and sensible prayer with which it included,
would receive the most serious attention of that House
and of the Government. None of the promised mea-
sures of the Government were yet before their Lord-
ships ; and, therefore, it Aould be folly to attempt to
form opinions upon what they would be ; but, he sin-
cerely trusted they would be characterised by a spirit of
conciliation thtit would be acceptable not only t.) Ireland
but to the whole United Kingdom,
The petition was then read at length, and was ordered
to lie upon the table.
IRELAND—THE JURY SYSTEM.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, he rose ac-
cording to notice to move for the production of any in-
structions that might have been given to any of the
Crown solicitors in Ireland as to the mode of impanelling
juries in Ireland. He was satisfied, having received
yesterday a notification from the Noble Lord opposite
(Wharncliffe) that there would be no objection to the
production of these returns, that it would be unjustifi-
able in him to make more than a very few observations
to their Lordships in reference to this subject. He
should, therefore, merely say what he considered
requisite to justify him in occupying the
attention of their Lordships. He need not say in that
House that every thing connected with the administra-
tion of justice, but most of all with that great feature of
it which affected the constitution of juries, was one cal-
culated to excite the most anxious attention of the coun-
try. When a prisoner, or a culprit, heard the first
forms of the court by which he was to be tried—and
which were so important in their nature—when he was
asked, how he would be tried? and responded, by his
God and his country, he considered he had thrown his
liberty, perhaps his life, into the hands ofpersons with the
same feelings, sympathies, and habits as himself. Now,
what, for a long time, had been the practice in Ireland?
They bad too often been in the habit of using the
powers and forms which were placed in the hands of the
Crown for a very different object, to the purpose of ex-
cluding a great majority of their countrymen from
taking their share in that branch of the administra-
tion of justice which it was their right to do.
The system adopted in these prosecutions had been de-
nounced by Chief Baron Joy, and some of the most
eminent men connected with the legal profession. From
equally high authority he could assert, that in all cases
when Roman Catholics had acted as jurors they had
discharged their duties with impartiality and fidelity.
Sir Michael O'Loghlin gave instructions that no dis-
tinction should be made in the appointment of juries ;
and he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) rejoiced that such
instructions had been issued, because he thought that
the powers of the Crown ought not to be exercised to
reject persons because of their religious opi-
nions. He was deeply impressed with the value
of trial by jury, and of its being essential to the fair ad-
ministration of the law, and of supporting that confi-
dence between man and man which was necessary to a
good state of society. He would again say that he be-
lieved it was not the intention of the Government to
bring the law into contempt, but he thought it was quite
as well to give to them an opportunity of expressly dis
claiming any participation in a course which was likely
to produce such a result. In submitting this motion to
the House, he was not actuated by any feelings with
respect to a particular trial ; but in the hope that some
responsible member of the Government would give an as-
surance that no sanction would be given to such a course,
and that those who adopted it did so without their
consent. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving for
copies of instructions given to the Irish Law Officers of
the Crown relative to challenging juries.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE, who spoke in so low a tone
as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, read a circular
addressed by the Attorney-General for Ireland, which
was to the following effect:—" The Attorney-General
presents his compliments to the Crown Solicitor, and,
having read the instructions given by Mr. Brady, when
Attorney-General, with respect to setting aside jurors,
requests the Crown Solicitor to continue. to act upon
those instructions." He (Lord Wharnchffe) thought
this was a sufficient proof that the Government had not
acted on any new principle with respect td striking off
jurors. With respect to the motion of the Noble Mar-
quis, there was no objection to produce the instructions,
or portions of them, relating to the particular subject to
which he had referred.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed himself
satisfied with the offer of the Noble Lord.
Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) had acted very fairly in the
manner in which he had brought forward his motion.
Lord CAMPBELL expressed a hope that the prin-
ciple which was applied to the striking off jurors in
Ireland, with respect to Crown cases, would also be ap-
plied to special jury cases.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Government officers
would always endeavour to do so.
The motion was then agreed to.
GWALIOR.

The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to ask his No-
ble Friend, the President of the Board of Control, when
it was likely any further papers relative to Gwalior
would be produced.
The Earl of RIPON said he would endeavour to lay
the papers alluded to by the Noble Marquis on the table
of the House before Easter. _ _ _

The Marquis of NORMANBY said be would abstain
from making any motion on the subject until the papers
were on the table.

INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT.
On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE the In-
ternational Copyright Bill was read a second time.
Several other Bills were advanced a stage. Their
Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 29.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock.

The Guilford Junction Railway Bill, and the Norwich
and Brandon Railway Bill, were read a third time and
passed.
Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Liverpool
against the Liverpool Docks Bill.
The Wells (Norfolk) Harbour and Quay Bill, and
the Wells (Norfolk) improvement Bill were read a se-
cond time.

ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAYS - GRAVESEND

RAILWAY.

Mr. SHAW rose to call the attention of the House to
a petition which he had presented a few nights ago from
certain parties who had projected a railway, to be con-
structed upon the atmospheric principle. He called the
attention of the House to this subject upon public
grounds, in order that the atmospheric principle might
be fairly applied to railways in this country. It had al-
ready been tried in Dublin on a short railroad, but the
engineers who had been sent over to observe the work-
ing of the principle, amongst whom was Mr. Brunel,
were of opinion that the Dublin and Dalkey
Railway was too short to enable them fully
to judge of the merits of the principle
and they therefore recommended that the principle
should be tried on some railway in this country, and
upon that recommendation a project had been started
for constructing a railway to Gravesend upon the at-
mospheric principle. The parties had presented a peti-
tion to the House, praying to be allowed to bring in a
Bill ; but their petition prayed for a Bill to construct a
common railway. They afterwards, however, presented
another petition, praying to be allowed to con-
struct a railway on the new principle. This peti-
tion, however, was presented too late to be re-
ceived by the Standing Orders' Committee, and there-
fore the Company were prevented from bringing
in their Bill. Now, what he wished was, that these par • ,
ties should be allowed to present a petition to the Stand-
ing Orders' Committee, to grant them permission to
bring in their Bill this session, as it was highly im-
portant to the public that the new principle should be
fully tested. He was anxious to bring the question be-
fore
the House, because twelve months' delay might be
of serious consequence to the projectors of the Gravesend
Railway. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by mov-
ing that the petitioners for the Gravesend, Rochester,
and Chatham Railway Bill have leave to proceed with the
Bill, and that the Standing Orders be suspended for
that purpose.
Mr. STRUTT said, that as Chairman of the Standing
Orders' Committee, it might, perhaps, be expected that
he should give some explanation of the reasons why he
should oppose the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Ile would not throw any difficulties in the way of the
railway, but the non-compliance with the Standing
Orders, which the Right Honourable Gentleman said
were mere matters of form, were, in his opinion,
very important. In few cases were they so
important—and he believed they were over twenty in
number. There were two sections on the line, one for
the atmospheric system, the other for the ordinary mode,
and one or either of these plans must be adopted. But
though the Bill enabled them to adopt either, they gave
no notice at all with regard to one. It was necessary
that parties whose property was to be cut through should
get notice, in order that they might be able to
defend their interest. The Committee were of
opinion that the question was of that kind
in which they should follow the rules upon
which they ordinarily decided. There were two
schemes before them, and they would have neglected the
duty which they owed to the House if they had showed
any favour to one part of the scheme in preference to the
other. They were decidedly of opinion that this was a
case in which it would be impossible for them
to allow the proceedings to go on. The House
would also bear in mind that the Gravesend line was
a competing one, and that there was another competing
line before them at the same time. They would, there-
fore, be guilty of great negligence if they dealt with one
line in a manner different from that in which they dealt
with the other.—(Hear, hear.) The question, therefore,
was not merely whether they would allow one particular
scheme to be carried out in opposition to the Standing
Orders, but whether they should allow to one com-
peting line what they did not allow to another.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it was a most im-
portant invention—indeed it was of national importance,
and that it was necessary that it should be tried during
the present year, as there was no other mode of making
the trial except through this Bill. Those were material
allegations, and he thought they should receive some
better proof of them than that of their being merely
alleged in a petition. The Right Hon. Gentleman
wished the subject referred to'the Standing Orders' Com-
mittee. In his (Mr. Strutt's) opinion that was not the
tribanal before which such a question could or ought to
be received. He would, therefore, suggest to him that it
ought not to be referred to the Standing Orders' Committee.
If the House chose to appoint a Select Committee to in-
quire into the merits of this atmospheric railway, and
if the Committee were of opinion that the national ad-
vantages to be derived from it were so important, and
that the urgency of the case was so great, that the in •
tere,sts of the competing railways ought to be disregarded,
it would not be for him to oppose it ' • but all he would
suggest, then, was, that the Standing Orders' Committee
could not act upon principles different from that on
which they usually acted. If it were referred back to
them, he did not see how they could come to a different
decision from that to which they had already come. He

must, therefore, give his most decided opposition to the
motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. SHAW said it was not his intention to divide the
House upon the motion, but if the House approved of it,
he would move, in pursuance of the suggestion of the
Hon. Gentleman, that the subject be referred back to
the Standing Orders' Committee. He begged to say he
did not intend that the Committee should decide on ap-
plying the atmospheric principle, but upon trying it.
Mr. STRUTT said he made no suggestion about re-
ferring the matter back to the Standing Orders' Com-
mittee. On the contrary, he said that if it were referred
back to the Standing Orders' Committee, he did not see
how they could come to any other decision than that
which they had already arrived at.
Mr. GLADSTONE must warn the House against
permitting parties to invalidate the Standing Orders of
the House merely on the ground of scientific experi-
ments or improvements. He wished every encourage-
ment to be given to inventions and improvements, but
they ought to be careful in putting aside any of those
rules and regulations by which their proceedings were
governed. He was by no means adverse to the propo-
sition of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shaw) to in-
quire whether the experiments made at the particular
place alluded to were successful ; but the House must
recollect that there would be no want of applications to
them if they showed themselves too easily disposed to
constitute a tribunal for the consideration of scientific
experiments.
Mr. HUME said it was only yesterday he had met
with one of the most scientific men of the day, who had
gone to Dublin with a decided feeling of disapprobation
of the atmospheric system, and had returned highly de-
lighted with it. In this gentleman's opinion the experi-
ment now in progress near Dublin would lead to one of
the greatest improvements of the day. He hoped the
House would grant a Select Committee, in order to give
to the country the best information that could be gained on
so important a subject from the opinions of men com-
petent, by their scientific attainments and practical ex-
perience, to arrive at sound conclusions upon the subject.
Lord HOWICK said he understood the Right lion.
Gentleman to wish for the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee, to ascertain whether or not it was possible to try
the atmospheric principle on a larger scale during the
present year. He entirely concurred with the lion.
Member for Dundee as to the desirableness of that ob-
ject. This was not one of those ordinary projects to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of
the Board of Trade, had referred. It was a scheme
which had been tried to a certain extent, and which,
in the opinion of the most scientific men, had, so far, been
eminently successful; but before a judgment could be
formed, it was absolutely indispensable that the experi-
ment should be tried on a more extended scale. With
regard to the question immediately before the House,
he quite admitted that the objection, founded on the
Standing Orders, was altogether insuperable ; but he
hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would endeavour to
provide facilities for trying this plan.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that, of all persons, he should
be the last to offer any obstruction to the fair trial of
the experiment. The Inspector-General of Railways
had paid the greatest attention to the subject.—(Hear,)
Sir R. INGLIS begged to remind the House that they
were not trying to benefit the atmospheric plan by con-
sidering whether a certain Bill should or should not be
brought before the House in compliance with the Stand-
ing Orders, the Committee of which was composed of
Members on both sides of the House. He thought the
experiment ought not to be made at the expense of
parties who were bringing forward the Bill.
Mr. ESTCOURT said it was a matter of considerable
importance, not only that this experiment should be
tested, but that it should be tested at as early an oppor-
tunity as possible, inasmuch as the construction of
many railways might depend in a great measure on the
results of that experiment.
Mr. SHAW said that he did not want to re-
verse the order of the Standing Orders' Committee ; but
he thought it might be left open to the applicants for
the Bill to petition for a new Bill, and to lay before the
House the grounds on which they rested their proposi-
tion. Such an arrangement would not bind the Standing
Orders' Committee.
The motion was then withdrawn without further dis-
cussion.