The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-01 00:00:00

F.---7^;;,17,- •
0v..,

e 4, so as to meet the recommendations of the
Committee
Mr. LUSHINGTON explained. Mr. TREAtAyNu
said a few word's. Mr. BENNET explained.
Mr. DENMAN took occasion to observe, that
the most important part of the duties of the Ses-
sion remained to be performed. He had looked
into the number of Acts passed before and after
Easter during the si). last years, and he found
that the number was as one to seven, the whole
quantity being 1,248 in the latter instance, and
190 in the former. It was therefore of conse-
.quence that the attendance of Members should
.be such as to give to the Acts which remained to
he passed, that chance of deliberate examination
which they could.not meet with in their House.
The want of such examination often caused Acts
to-be passed containing gross inaccuracies, and-
some years ago, it was the practice of the printer
to make a mark in the margin to shew that he
was not accountable for the faults apparent on
the face of the Acts, but that they had been so
passed by the House, and he wrote slc in the
margin for purpose ; but such marks in the
margin were no longer permitted. He made these
observations, merely to point out the manner in
which mistakes in Acts of Parliament were pass-
ed over. A great part of the Bills relative to
Felonies had been disposed of, when the House
might be counted out on account of the paucity of
the Members.
After a few words from Mr. BENNET and Mr.
LUSHINGTON, the Bill was ordered to be read a
second time on Tuesday week.
SPOILED STAMPS BILL.
Mr. HuinE presented a Petition from the Law
Stationers of London against the above Bill. The
Honourable Member stated, that when-the Bill
was first mentioned he asked the Chancellor of
the Exchequer' the nature of it, and.he stated it
was merely a regulation Bill, without any clause
of new duties ; but now it appeared that the Bill
was not only to impose new duties, but to make
important alterations with respect to stamps, as
all bonds, Leases, Sze. not stamped within six
months of the date, were to pay double penal-
ties, and' be also void ;. which enactment was
fraught with mischief and inconvenience. The
llon. Member then proceeded to point out the
injustice and irregularity of the new rates of al-
lowance, whereby persons selling stamps in the
country were paid 1601. out of every 4,0001.;
while, for the same amount, persons in London
received only 151. whichwas,now proposed to be
reduced to lot., so unsparing was the economy
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(A. laugh !)
—He hoped the Bill would be recommitted. He
intended to propose two clauses, for allowing the
Commissioners to receive proposals for distribut- ,
ing stamps' in the country, at an allowance of
not more than 2/. per cent., ptil to close with
the lowest tenders, and accept' the usual secu-
rities. This would make a saving of 50,0001. to
the public. lle
,then moved that the Petition 'be
brought up.
11Ir. SCARLETT observed, that if the principle
introduced by. the. Bill was good, it ought to be
made universal.
Mr. HUME, in explanation, said that ito had forgotten to
state.- that the country distributors had, besides their 41. per
cent. three mouths credit for all the money they received for
stamps.
• Mr..BROVGIIAM objected to the Bill, on the ground of
its being not a Regulation IBM, but one to raise revenue,, and
Constitutionally ought to be -accompanidd by an Estimate ofthe
sum expected to be ilis;xl:- It 'Was npon :such constitutional
ground ho wished - the Bill 'to be postponed until the Esti-
mate was given into the' llouse.

I lllr. LUSHING TON conten•ied that the Bill was only one
-of 'regulation although the regulations which it introduced were
to be' connected with spme adyantages to the revenue, hut-thit
the Bia,might he re-considered on Wednesday. As to the dis-'
count it was, not Yrewed in its proper light.
•
Mr. BROUGHAAT 'said, that the Chancellor of the Exelier
quer ought to be'ready on 'Wednestlayto explain how much re,
venue it was ittended to raiSeixKlie Bill. •
Mr. LUSIIINGTON -observed, that. it was impossible•Jo
,ascertain it accurately.
Mr. BROUGHAM said' it•eOuld he ascertained in: a general
way as on similar ecchsions.: -• • •
GRENFA,.."LL -urged the propriety of deferring the TAI
altogether uritil they. hid Some Report on the subject. ,
Mr. BERNAL sai4The Iqlfwas s Tax Bill, and ou•zht not
to be.procee4ed in withoUt an estimate.
Mr, BRIGHT was opinion that there ought to he some
compendious way'of to ether the various laws relative •
to stamps: . • "
Mr. - AVIABERIX said, :the =ill was one of
~..TeVecliet• 9P-t1
ought not to be sningglea thro-ugii House-unutg"a fLiV.. ap-
pellation. -
• '
Mr. I.4"IIINGTOX explained:::-Dr. LusnixpToN...said
few words wl.tidi lure u.ot autliblev--The petitionwis then reatii.
and ordered to lie on the tal.A. -
3
EXTEN:4TON OF THE _RIGHT: OF VOTING. I.
Lord J. -ELI, moved that his metion, 'which Stood•filp
Thursday, relatiye to the I%teusion of e, fight of Voting m
krect.T.gyns,.notice of whieh been imi`in abs:tnee bt
an HOnourable Friend (Mr:Benneto lA:postponed to 'cit-e'‘ides!-
day,'the 46th of May.—Ordiml. •
C. ,-1141-TeIiINSON presente4., petitions froni
Ciancy;,Pawson• ,Church ar,d blichael Corrpidc, persons
situiicions in gib Coust Of Common Pleas-,'-in Ireland, nrey.,..
ingfor •ehtnphisation on account of edisallpwance of
tees, aecor4ing-t6 tite,'Repott of the C me.nission of Jruquiry.—
sprdered to lie on, the table. -
• ' • ' O,7iFICIAL DOCUMENTS.
Colonel DA:vn:S move) for a Rein-n. of art
Gyatuities and. "A llow,ances, independent of sa'-
,
lary, p.a.g: b the Coktiqusstoners'or,the Cttstv'
.since the year 17S:1 to the la est
,period'
.
fy itig the nain,es of tile pers fns to wham thel,
were prOd,. the .sei'viCes whicit's'`Were p' "owned,
ailf.lthe.perioils,Wioi a return of. all the stuns.
raised under tile of Geo. the'.
'pojekto "whi-ch hey -were appliot
of the 'Charr,es 611 d. coritinent.Experide,.tif
zareefoes;. also a nmtgrn of the'Quantity of !ipi7.
Goofsnitsoda:Pry. seized since tha year iblO'
to the present Mug,' with an account or the suirnl3'
paid to the. OtrieerS- of Excise during the u 2: tie'
period.-Ordered. --

Mr. Mimi: moved fora Return of the Expences
of -the Quarantine Establishment it) -14,ngland,
Scotland, and Ireland, with the sums paid tis'•all.
persons employed in the service, and all c& in-
gent expencef, with the tuual .specificatio i -of

, ~... -
'.- : ,
.• .L...4' i
~r,e ....."N ,
'....'‘ .
. .0, .:-...,-, ,-, '4,!
"....4..,.,,,t,?'• .
\ :4.,‘4...
J 1.4
1 1 A... .
% ; • - , =
• , ,L, • t
. •s
if

PR.ICE SEVENPEN

time, place,.and person, from the Year 1792, to
the present time.
The CHNN.CEOII. of the EXCHEQUER said he
had no objection to the motion, but it would not
be convenient to obLin the names of all the per-
sons included in the motion. -•
Mr. Hymn said that he would confine the.
number to those vho received 1001. or more, an-
nually. The motion was then altered -accord-
ingly and agreed to.
Mr. BENNET moved for a Rettirn of the Ex-
penditure of the Office§ of the:Commissioners for
Auditing Public Accounts in Great Britain and
Ireland, with the total amount' and annual speci-
fications to the year 1821: also a similtr
turn for the Establishments in the Mauritius "and
Ceylon : also for the West India Islands; alsO for
the Offices of the Exchequer, with the names
of the persons employed therein,- whethit act-
ing by themselves or deputy, and the nmount of
fees and salaries received : also a Return of all
Pensions and Allowances granted to Persons in
the Public Service, Civil and Military, in Cey-
lon, Mauritius, the Cape of Good Hope, and the
Island of Malta, with the total amount paid b
each Colony to the year 1821.--Ordered.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Lord•PALmEnsToN moved that the House do
resolve itself into a Committee of Supply on the
Army Estimates..
Mr. CREEVEY stated, that he wished to address
a few words to the House before it went into a
Committee. They had been now sitting six
weeks upon the Army Estimates, without a single
reduction in any one item proposed having been
agreed to ; still, however, .a sensation had been
felt elsewhere, as he understood, that in the pub-
lic offices circulars had been addressed to the in-
ferior clerks, to intimate a probable reduction Of
their salaries. Now he (Mr. Creevey) was anx-
ious, that when the Gentlemen opposite began to
reform the public .offices, they
.should. begin at
the right end. The lower clerks were, in fact,
the most useful class of persons in the public de-
partments, and yet their salaries, it appeared,
were to be curtailed, 'while the salaries of thoSe
at the head of the offices were not to be touched.
(Hear, hear !)—He wished- the House to pledge
itself on this subject, not, indeed, to env specific
reduction, but according to the terms of a Reso-
lution which lie held in his hand, and which re-
ferred to several Great Officers in the Civil De-
partment of the Army, who were already pro-
vided for by the votes on the Estimates:, and. he
would only ask the House to come to the reso-
lution of taking intoilts serious c.otsideration the
expediency of reducing the great salaries which
they at present enjoyed, when the Report. of the
CoMmittee of Suliply should be broughtup.
officers to whom he referred to were eleven, tit
they received collectively the enormous- sum of
16,0001. per annum. He then Moved as an
Amendment the following Resolution :
"Rvsolved, 'Ant it appears to this 1-io;:tse hem the Army
Estimates of the present year, that th,• -,•'ens
been made far` the atm cxed eices • - '• '' • 7,
the army, viz. in the Paymc.ster's t.
spa
an Accountant, to a • L,• o,,Letljer
Keeper. In the office of the Secr, Lry ..:;•iteq'yer an-
to a 'Deputy Secretary at IV. to 1.1;e Firizt
MO). to a prindirlerk, to a junior Clerk, and
IMl..per annum to a Superintend: • • !.c.',:ourists;-in
the Comptioller of Accounts Ofliu., • to the
first Comptroller, and 1,15001. per.anhum eacl. Junior
Comptrollers. And that all such -.n' voter:
Coromittetrof Sup Fly. That
r2Ssed deepest.consqctic, •
peat and at the same time, or usu.: • • '
011larMIS*;,1),;ither 7; it' able; to prot--.:. for its ~
extanA4,e4ahlishraerits upon the
es/echillsr, 'that 'this /louse 17:31-
its most sctjaus cmisshlieration, the expediency of tne
c.qpiaits- of the ogees hert:.inzbefore cefesced to, when the
geglAtio:is ieSPecting the same shall 7uo report,2d torn die Loin-
firilfee Ulf Snpply.4' '
taird*PALIVitaSTON said, hi:never before heard
'bxtraorditlary a.geonml given for any motion,
that the Hon. Member 'had stated as
,tire foundation of -big. 'ffite•Moticin Was prepos-
terous and unnecessary, and the -House, by
agreeing to it, ‘vould'only-,stultify itself. They
%lOW, indeed, itavi• COgnizance of thosel.natters
in a rrgular-way in a few days, and their:acced-
iligwrthe *ri"-totibn v,,,_-73.1d be like saying-, that they
were, so,slultiish:and inert/ that they were afraid
they wbuld pot tala! tlei;qions of importance into
cogghteratiOn. v;hen th*Y properly came before
them. On thosw:':ol'e,'-he, ,ever heard a proposi-
tion so!unreasdnable and, itttonsiideat..-
' C•ltE' 3Y,: fir a pl rrwtion stated that his
firnpoSitiOn:was:iniittrer nor inconsistent.
I'lleTassing--such a-aesolutialy, instead of stulti-
fying the' 13b6i7F40.ontertilVe that it, had suffi-
cient virtue to 4v iA• to} o:ita..iti its 1 ts, and wis-
dom "eli gh 46';ea;' 'bear !) •
Sir IC'..EoPo' re'ci;lidsett". the -lAnendrilent, and
stated• that it!.was, trot th'q int6atiett of Govern-
inent.:to4icrOtso clerks and spare the
highse?volki4sl t,P4(eMent's be 'believed
ithertiivaVki4-4.'fact 'ti;i4o;ttnagina t
eurriortM Vie Amendment. He
fi 11. belies tl. ,ti .t i,f4t7:‘47a.S:riinved to reduce a
sum of 701.. ittrlittt ;1144 the Noble
Loz-d .ciipo'sed it, the ma.
joist v of that c.upport the Noble •
Lord, :Fail cac:•.y ~::.I,,,ace-halfpenriy by a
triurnyhuit: Inajor;ty.----( A Lugh.)2l'he Hottse
•.ha,l been fung..e'f!oifqll 'd through the dirt,
nntioti'ght to:4ii6l44vont. t! upcn fairer ground
and is the eyes of
tht'conntry".. .o:4'nOdent that the House
`vvitti'lld'never ft.stainok4}suctran estimate as that
wh?chi 1 lit— this the seventh year , •
'
ha.A ArniteAied. Ile contended,• nest
pi,,,rfectly right in makia.2,-
tbenoti447'hic,!l ho'Ariad made. It would tend
to sfie;vilie-ncces.Fsity of Parlimrieutary
It would tend to show, that'the Howe of Con's-
inot.m.Was:atlNpnt Con&tituted,' that if•Go-
.:yel• '*'{t.'4,l.o I would be economi-
n.. • I a., it ,
!t.4l.:arso builit,!if Government v,vere extrava.

fa-at, it would likewise be extravagant. He
wished that such a motion as the present were
made every day in the week, that the people
might see what the House was, and how regard-
less it was of its duty in the ad:ninistration of
:he public revenue. He trusted, therefore, that
his lion. Friend would never lose any opportu-
-zity which might present itself, of making such

a :notion.
Mt HUME asked, what was the object of his
1-lonoarable Friend's motion ? Merely that the
1-Iceasojohould pledge itself, on the bringingup the
deport of the Committee, to take into considera-
stien the large salaries which the motion enume-
rated.—What would he the re:ollt of refusing to
:agree to this proposition ? TLat the people would
believe Parliament had no such intention. The
:Noble Lord had' already allowed that the con-
sideration ought to take place. What his Hon.
Friend now called upon the House to do was to
give the people the satisfaction of pledging itself
zo that consideration—a most reasonable propo-
sition ; and l e was astonished that the Noble
-.Marquis and Mi Friends objected to it. Un-
tloubtedly, if he had been consulted by his [lon.
Friend he would have recommended deferring
the motion until the Report had been actually
brought up ; hut as the motion had been made,
and as, if it would be good at. the time he had
mentioned, it could not be bad at the present
moment, he would certainly vote for it.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY felt it un-
necessary to press on the House the impropriety
aid inutility of the motion, after what had fallen
from the Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken,
who had made the strongest speech that had been
'made in hostility to the motion, and who, indeed,
Toad pushed his reproach of the Hon. Mover to a
degree of harshness disproportionate to the of-
fence which the want of confidence that certainly
bad been exhibited towards him was calculated
to excite. The Hon. Gentleman had distinctly
allowed that the motion was unnecessary at the
present moment. Now really if the House were
to be called upon to act on the principle of af-
firming every unnecessary proposition that was
made to it, and from the establishment of which
not the, slightest public advantage could be de-
rived, merely lest the country should be misled
(and misled too, he begged leave to observe, by-
those to whose tactics the public were too Much
accustomed not clearly to see through them), it
would, in his opinion, speedily involve itself in
c:reat disgrace and humiliation. But the Hon.
*Member for Aberdeen had relieved him from' all
difficulty in pressing this point, and he would
therefore content himself with saying, that, for
the reason which that Hon. Member had stated,
he (the Marquis of Londonderry) should cer-
tainly vote against the motion.
3lr. HUTCHINS3N maintained the expediency
of agreeing to the motion, in order that the
House might show its disposition to attend to the
distresses of the people, by pledging itself at the
first convenient opportunity to take into con-
sideration the salaries specified, in order to de-
termine whether they might not- be advantage-
ously reduced. If such motions as these were
rejected, he was persuaded that things could not
go on as they were ; for the distressed people)
ending that all-their Petitions for Relief were
fruitless, would naturally withdraw their confi-
.dence from those by whom their complaints were
disregarded.—The House then divided—

For Mr. Creevey's Resolution
Against it - -
Majority -

-33

On our return to the Gallery, we found the
Rouse in the Committee of Supply, discussing
the Army Estimates. On the Resolution for
granting a sum not exceeding 23,2071.35. 2d. for
the Recruiting Establishment of the East India
Company in Great Britain and Ireland, a short
conversation ensued, in which Mr. Hume, Lord
Palmerston, and the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer participated. Eventually, the Resolution
was agreed to. On the Resolutioa for granting
a sum not exceeding 16,9151. 10s. 4d. for the
Royal Military College, a considerable discus-
took place.

Mr. IltimE declared that he had a great objec-
tion to this grant. The establishment in ques;
ticn had been gradually increasing since 1816.-
11e by no means objected to the propereducation
•of every officer who entered the army ; but what
he objected to was, that many young men were
educated at the institution in question who never
hail an opportunity of entering the service. In
the five years, 1816, 1817, 1818, 1819, and 1820,
-the expence of the Royal Military College had
been 115,2801. In that period 1,764 cadets had
been educated there. Now, as by the regula-
tions of the College it took four years to com-
plete the education of a cadet, it followed that a
fourth part of the number he had mentioned, or in
other words 440 cadets, ought to have been ad-
rnitted into the service in that time. Instead of
that, only 160 had been so admitted. The edu-1
cation, therefore, of those 160 officers had cost
the public no less a sum than 7201. 10s. each.—
None ought to be educated at the public expence
except those who were afterwards sure of being
admitted into the service. The fact however
was, that, although the establishment in question
"-was adequate to the education of all the Military,
Officers in his Majesty's service, not one in nine
of the young men who obtained Commissions was
,educated in it. Most of those who were educated
in the Royal Military College, when their educa-
tion was finished, instead of receiving commis-
sions were turned adrift, to the great detriment
both of themselves, and of the country. The
Hon. Member here read an .extract from the Re-
port of the Finance Committee of 1817, in sup-
port of his opinion, that the Institution was per-
verted from its proper object ; and that if some
changes were not made, the sooner it was done
away with the better. If, however, it were con-
tinued, the expence ought to be considerably re-
duced. Who that knew any-thing of the pro.
CCS3 of education would say, that a Military
Staff at an annual expence of 6,4571. was ne-

cessary to take care of 290 young men ? There
was no vote in the whole of the Estimates

half so extravagant as this. There were a Go-
vernor and a Lieutenant Governor (he did not
know whether either of them resided or not),
.the one at. 1,5001. the other at 1,0951. a year.
—Then there were a Major, four Captains, a

Quarter-Master, a Paymaster, (who had a salary
of 3001. to pay thirteen thousand pounds,) a Li-
brarian (who, he believed, acted as Chaplain,)
a Surgeon, and an Assistant Surgeon. What
necessity there could be for two Surgeons for
290 boys, when half a regiment of 1000 men
were committed to the care of one, he was ut-
terly at a loss to conceive. There were four
Professors of French, and six of Fortification
and Drawing, when it was evident that half the
number would he sufficient. Then there were 5
clerks ; and 21 men-servants to attend on young
men who ought to be made soldiers of, and ac-
customed to all the hardships of a military life.
On the whole, he had no hesitation in saying,
that there was no establishment, the expenditure
of which was so profuse. He proposed, therefore,
to reduce the estimate by 72401. In the first
place, he saw no reason why a Lieutenant-Colo-
nel would not be an officer of sufficient rank to act
as Governor of the College. He would reduce
the Captains to 2; the Surgeons to 1 ; the clerks
to 3 ; he would dispense with the Paymaster, he
would also reduce the French Professors to 2,
and the Professors of Drawing and Fortification
to 3. With all these reductions, he was per-
suaded that the establishment would be com-
pletely efficient for the purpose for which it was
intended. The Honourable Gentleman conclud-
ed by moving an Amendment to substitute the
sum of 9,7711. for the sum proposed by the
Noble Lord.
Lord PALMERSTON observed, that the Hon.
Gentleman had saved' him the trouble of argu-
ing the expediency of having our officers pro-
perly educated for the service. He was perfect-
ly ready to concede to the Honourable Gentle-
man that it was desirable not to educate a
larger number of young men than would have
a fair chance (consistently with other and una-
voidable claims), of obtaining Commissions.—
Whether or not this had been the case at the
Royal Military College, would appear from in-
quiring into the number of Cadets, who, having
passed their examination, had not obtained Com-
missions. That number was, at present, only 14.
The examinations were annual. If all the Cadets
who were qualified in one year obtained Com-
missions in the course of the next, it was as much
as could be expepted. The Hon. Member had
calculated what had been the expence of the es-
tablishment. It might be satisfactory to know'
What had been the result of that expence. From
the first establishment of the institution, 2528
Cadets had been admitted into it ; including, in
its earlier periods, a number for the artillery and
East India service. Of those 802 had received
commissions in his Majesty's service ; 17 had
gone into the army as volunteers, and had after-
wards received commissions ; 142 who had re-
tired into private life subsequently entered the
army ; 683 had been educated for the artillery,
102 had entered the East India service, making
a total of 1867. There remained 238 at the
College who had passed their examination ; so
that of the 2528 who had been admitted, 2105
had been rendered available to the public service.
The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think the ex-
pence of the establishment too great. It was not
greater in proportion than that of the Ordnance
and Naval Establishments of a similar nature

It was strange that an individual of the Honour
able Gentleman's ability and research should no
know whetherv:or not the Governor and Lieu,

tenant GovernoPtesided at the College. Every-
one who knew any thing of the College knew
that they resided, and that they performed their
duties in the most exemplary and conscientious
manner. But the Honourable Gentleman chose

the subjects on which he would employ his in-
vestigating faculties. Where he thought he could
make an impression, he exerted himself, but
where he felt that nothing could be done, he
came and professed his ignorance. As to the
rank of the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor,
it was indispensible that the College should he
superintended by persons of professional weight
and character. The young men there were at a
time of life when it was more difficult to manage
them than at any other. No longer boys, they
could not he subjected to coercion, and on the
other hand they had not arrived at the age when
the reasoning faculties could be expected to hold
them in sufficient restraint. Unless therefore
they were under the superintendence of indivi-
duals of professional weight and character, their
discipline Would be relaxed, and the whole insti-
tution rendered unavailing. The Noble Lord
proceeded to shew the necessity 'of maintaining
the other officers of the establishment, as well as
the professors, the clerks, the servants, &c. He
contended that the expence of educating each
cadet, being only 581. a year, could not be con-
sidered as excessive. A considerable diminution
of the expence of the establishment would in fu-
ture arise from the necessary reduction of that
class—the orphans of officers—who were edu-
cated gratuitously. The establishment would
then consist, in a gteater degree, of those who
contributed towards the charge of their education.
Colonel DAVIES, who had himself been edu-
cated at the College, expressed his persuasion,
that while the senior department was eminently
serviceable to the country, the junior was wholly
useless ; yet the reductions which had taken
place had been most injudiciously in that depart-
ment principally from which alone public benefit
was derived. Of the Professors of Fortifications
and Drawing, three were Frenchmen, one of
whom had been a Lieutenant in the Navy.—
Now, he was at a loss to conceive what this per-
son could know of fortifications. It was urged,
that this Establishment had furnished many Of-
ficers to the Army ; but it should be recollected,
that within the last five years no more than 52
officers had been taken into actual service from
. _

half-pay. This was, then, a gross injury and
injustice to the whole half-pay List. The Ifon.
Member, after some • further observations, con-
cluded by supporting the Ame4dment.

Sir 140 WRY COLE observed, that every Gen-
tleman who knew the Gallant Officer who gb-
verned the Military College,. must acknowledge
the great services which he had rendered t.) the

---
country.—(Hear, hear !)—lie (Sir G. Murray)
had devoted his mind to that Department, and
had introduced great and 'effective improvc:ne.nts
into it,

• Colonel DaviEs admitted the merits of the
Gallant Officer alluded' to. His objection was
not to the individual but to the office. Ile felt
convinced, that either the Governor or Lieute-
nant-Governor ought to be reduced, but he did
not state which.
Sir L. COLE said, that it was not the duty of
the Governor, nor would it become his station,
to enter into all the minute details of the Esta-
blishment. It would not become him, for in-
stance, to inquire on every occasion, whether one
boy was to be put into the black hole; or whe-
ther another boy should receive punishment of a
different nature.
Mr. HUME remarked, that the observation just
made by the Gallant Officer (Sir L. Cole),
would go to shew that Sir G. Murray was above
his work.—(" No, no!")—It might not be ne-
cessary for the Governor to inquire what boy was
to be sent to the black hole ; but then, where
were the major, .the captain, and the 10 or 12
serjeants who were employed in the establish-
mept ? From what bad been said as to the ne-
cessity of keeping up so large an establishment,
it would appear, either that the boys were the
worst disposed boys, or else that the College
was the worst managed establishment in exist-
ence. The Hon. Member entered into calcula-
tions to shew, that the expence of this establish-
ment was, in 1799, 14891.; in 1801 (when it first
took the name of a Military College), 3859/.,
that since its establishment it had cost the coun-
try 300,1891. The proposed reduction was, in
his opinion, a very moderate one, and he felt he
should desert his duty if he did not take the
sense of the House upon it.
After a few words from Lord PALMERSTON and
Colonel DA VIES,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that he could not
allow this question to 'go to a division without
making a few observations upon it. He, for one,
did not think it right in a fre., country like this,
to have young men educated from their earliest
youth with a view solely to the army. He enter-
tained an old prejudice against accustoming boys
to see nothing around them but military uniforms
and military discipline. He did not think it
proper that They should be totally separated

*rom those friends and those associations of civi

life. However necessary such an establishment
might have been during the war, he thought it
might be reduced in a time of peace. But even
if such an establishment were necessary, still he
thought that there was no. occasion for sending
boys to it at an earlier period than that at which
persons studied for the bar or the church, which
was never before 15 years of age. The Noble
Lord also objected to the employment of four
French professors, as he could not see any con-
nection between the French langVage and the
duties of a British officer.

Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Noble Lord
would, it appeared, have our officers brought up
in the happy constitutional ignorance of 1792.
Our officers were then, for the most part, igno-
rant of the Continental languages, and the conse-
quence was, that when our army went abroad,
we were obliged to hire foreigners to perform
those duties, without which even the bravery and
discipline of. our troops would be of no avail.
'The Noble Lord wished to have persons sent to
the military school at the same age that persons
commenced the study of law and theology—but
he (Lord J. Russell) should recollect, that the
sevices of officers are required at a much earlier
age than that at which Gentlemen are called to
the Bar, or ordained to the Church.

Mr. 11. G. BENNET was of opinio❑ that if the
College was productive, of good in disseminating
knowledge among our officers, it had also pro-
duced much evil in inculcating notions inconsis-
tent with the principles of a free Constitution. It
was said that our officers were ignorant before
the establishment of this College. This he
begged leave to deny. lie had himself, twenty
years ago, known many officers, as well educated
and as well informed as any Gentleman now in
the army. It would be better to allow parents
and friends to qualify their children for the army,
by providing the necessary instruction. If Go-
vernment should once establish the rule that none
but the educated officer should receive a Commis-
sion, there would be no doubt that those who ap-
plied would take care to possess themselves of
the necessary knowledge.

Colonel. Woof) wished to remind the House,
that in this establishment there were educated
three descriptions of persons. In the first class,
were the orphans of brave men who had fallen
in the service, and who could not get that educa-
tion spoken of by the Hon. Member. In the se-
cond class, were the children of officers now in
the army ; and if this particular education were
more necessary for any one class, it was for this,
because composed of persons the most likely to
find their way into the army, and the most
likely to be ill educated in consequence of their
fathers being abroad. The third class paid for
their education, and was no burthen to the coun-
try. He did think a knowledge of the French
language highly necessary for those who might
be stationed in countries where this language
was spoken ; and if the proposition of the
Honourable Member for Shrewsbury were
adopted, the result would be, that all the young
men destined for the army would be educated on,
the continent, as a knowledge of languages
must be always among the qualifications. In
support of this opinion, he should read a letter
from General Wolfe, who was.certainly a consti.
tutional officer. The Gallant Member here read
a letter from General Wolfe to a friend, stating
the necessity of instructing a young man, about
to enter the army, in the Latin and French lan-
guages, and in mathematics; because withbut a
knowledge of the latter, it would be impossible
to construct fortifications, or have a knowledge of
tthe attack and defence of places—an important
portion of the duty of an officer. The Gallant
Member concluded, by defending the establish-
ment, because without it, it would be impossible
to give the necessary education to the two first
classes.

,Ca'Stain O'gRADY observed, that he had the
concurrence of every Cavalry Officer of that
House, in stating that the [tiding-house. at Pim-

lico (as was understood) was totally useless and
ought to be suppressed. Ile trusted that that

Department would be again brought under the
attention of the House.
Mr. lILTME remarked, that much stress, had
been laid on the circumstance of the orphans of
Officers being educated at the Military College.
Now, the fact was, that, of 290 boys, there were
but 55 orphans of Officers in the Establishment.
The object of the Institution was not attended
to; it was not the children of Officers that were
benefited by it, but the children of persons that
were not at all connected with the army.
Col. WOOD pressed his former arguments on
the House.
Sir HENRY HARDING said, as a proof that in-
fluence was not the only means of obtaining com-
missions at the Military College, that he was pre-
sent at a recent examination, where a young man
was presented with a commission in an oldregi-
meat, as a reward for the excellent manner in
which he stood the examination. The present
question was, whether the expence of the Mili-
tary College was too high ? Formerly, officers
sought instruction abroad, merely because in this
country military information was neglected. He
had no hesitation in saying, that the system of
instruction now pursued at Sandhurst was supe-
rior to the system pursued at the Military Col-
leges abroad.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that he looked with great
jealousy at the Establishment in question ; he
was convinced that a better system of education
might be promoted at much less expence. He
felt it his duty to vote for a reduction of the pro-
posed grant.
Mr. J. SIITYTII said, that the Military College
was not, in his opinion, attended with sufficient
advantages to justify the expences incident to it.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the system of
Military Education. If the children of deceased
officers were to he educated, why not give them a
civil education ? He not only complained of the
establishment itself, but of the wasteful expendi-
ture attending it. There were 290 childrep, and
for those 290 children, there were no less than'
104 masters and servants.

Mr. T. WILSON said, that in the present state
of the country, he was not disposed to support
the grant, the more particularly as he appre-
hended that there was a perversion,of the original
design of the Establishment.

Mr. O'GRADY wished to know, whether the
porter of the Military College, and who had a
salary of 701. a year, was an old Soldier or a de-
cayed innkeeper ?
After a few words from Mr. GREY BENNET, the
House divided :
Foi the Motion -
Against it
Majority

23
- 9

On the Resolution for a sum of 28,2041. for the
support of the Garrisons of Great Britain, at
home and abroad, Mr. HumE said, that it ap-
peared that Lord Chatham, as Governor of Gib-
raltar, had an allowance of 2,8001. a year, and
as Governor at home, 6901., and yet he did no
duty in either place. He wished to know, whe-
ther it was the intention of Government to con-
tinue those useless places

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that it
was not in the contemplation of Ministers to
make any reduction with respect to the govern-
ment of Gibraltar. It was never in the contem-

plation of the Earl of Chatham to accept of the
place as a sinecure, and nothing would have pre-
vented him from attending his duty at the pre-
sent moment, but a recent and al calamitous cir-
cumstance, which took place in the Chatham
family—as it was, his Lordship was about to sail
to Gibraltar. The emoluments of the office, as
received by the late Dake of Kent, were consi-
derably more than those received by the Earl of
Chatham. The Duke of Kent received 6,5001.
a year. The Earl of Chatham did not altogether
receive more than 4.4001.

Mr. linam said, that the services of the late
Duke of Kent would, at least, bear comparison
with those of Lord Chatham; every one knew
the services of his Lordship, and he believed
every one was convinced that those services were
fully requited wherever they were performed—
whether at Walcheren, or at any other place.
The late Duke of Kent did not receive,more than
two-thirds of what he was entitled to receive;
he ought to have received 9,0001. a year; it was
not going too far to say that his Royal Highness
was defrauded of a great part of his revenue by
his Majesty's Government. During the time
of his predecessors, a great part of the revenue
was received out of wine houses ; the establish-
ment of those houses led to very disgraceful scenes,
and had the very worst effect upon the morals and
discipline of the army. His Royal Highness, to
his honour, reduced those houses ; he had a
pledge from Government that the decrease of his
allowance, occasioned by the reduction of the
wine houses, should be made up to his Royal
Highness, but that pledge was never fulfilled.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that it
was curious to see the Hon. Member complaining
of the reduced allowance to the Earl. of Chatham,
and at the same time contending that the late
Governor, the Duke of Kent, ought to have re-
ceived full 9,0001. a-year.
Col. Davtns said,it had been understood that on
the death of the Duke of Kent this office was to
have-ceased.; yet, on the death of his Royal High-
ness, a successor was appointed with the most
indecent haste. It was to be recollectiql that the
Earl of Chatham already received a large pen-
sion from the Consolidated Fund on account of
the services of his illustrious father, As to the
Earl of Chatham's going to Gibraltar, it did not
at all alter the case—it would be only wasting
his time. But it was not an uncommon trick to
appoint an individual to a sinecure, and then lo
make him try to give it an appearance of effi-
ciency to deceive the public.
Sir F. 03IMANNEY said a few words, which
were quite inaudible in the Gallery.
Mr. asked, whether the establishment
in the Tower was kept up in the same state as it
was when the Military Commissioners inquired
into it ? the real purpose of keeping uP these
unnecessary establishments were to afford rewards
for distinguished services, that was a purpose
which might be much better answered by giving
pervious. For the garrison of Berwick there was
a charge of 94 -IL Now there was not the sha-,
dow of an efficient garrison there. When he

passed through that place last year he inquired
respecting the garrison, and found that the guns
had all been taken away, and even the small
arms, for fear of the Radicals ! Yet no doubt, in
addition to the charge of 9441. in the present
vote, there would be, in the Ordnance Depart-
ment, a charge for Serjeants to look after these
guns. He should move a reduction only of 2,449/.
on this vote, being the sum charged for the garri
son of Berwick, added to that for the Governor
of Gibraltar, though he had no doubt, if the facts
could be known, there were other charges equally
fit for reduction.

Lord -A. HAMILTON asked, whether the Mi-
nisters would say that the office of Governor of
Gibraltar 'should continue in perpetuity ? If
this was the intention of the Ministers, they-
should avow it. If not, never was there a more
improper appointment than that of Lord Chat-
ham. It had been the uniform defence of sine-
cures, that they were bestowed in reward of
•-J
great public services; but the assertion was fal-
sified by universal experience. Here was a sum
of 28,0001. to be voted for• sinecures, of which
the Ministers refuse to reduce a shilling.
Lord PALMtItSTON said it was only the Go-
vernor's places that were sinecures. The other
ekpences arose from offices- which were efficient,
and were filled 'generally by old and meritorious
Officers. Among the names of Governors were
those of the Duke of Wellington, Lord- Hill,
Lord Cavan, Lord Combermere, Sir Lowry Cole,
Lord nutchinson, and Lord .Beresford, Which
sheaved that these: offices were not given by fa-
vour, but as the reward of brilliant m:litary
services.

Mr, BENNET asked for what conceivable rea-
son the form and establishments ofgarrisons were
still kept up at Inverness, Hull, and Stirling ?
Notwithstanding the flourish of splendid names
which the Noble Lord had put at the head of
his list, he had no doubt, if all the names were
given, there would be found among them some
excellent electioneerers.

Lord J. RussELL wished to know from his
Majesty's Ministers, whether it was intended that
Lord Chatbarn should continue to do the duty of
the garrison ; and whether, in consequence, it
was intended to.reduce the office of Lieutenant.
Governor ?

Lord LONDONDERRY said, he only knew that
Lord Chatham was about to repair to Gibraltar,
but he had no further information on the subject.
Mr. PHILLIPS said, it was proved beyond
.doubt that the place was a sinecure, by the ab-
sence of the Duke of Kent for years, and of
Lord Chatham ever since his appointment.
After a few words from Lord PALmEnsToN and.
Mr. BENNET, the Committee divided—

For the Amendment
Against it - -

Majority -

- -60

The original grant was agreed to.—Oir Ole
proposition for a vote of 115,256/. 175.- 6d• for
the full pay, or retired and unattached oficers,
Mr. IlintE called attention to the manner
which, this charge had been swollen out by the
late temporary embodying of Veteran Battalions.
It was a rule, that officers of Veteran Battalions
when disembodied, should deceive full pay for
life, and the rule had justice as well as liberality
in it, when, as according to usual practice, per-
sons, who from length of service had peculiar
claims on the public, were placed in those regi-:
ments. About a year and a half ago the Minis-
ters thought fit to raise new battalions of these
corps which had been since disbanded. They

had to,officer these battalions, taking officers/
some from full and some from half-pay, and giving
them a claim to retire for life on full pay. The
increase of expellee thus entailed upon the Plibn4.
lic was 13,8701.; of the officers, 68 were t3:l'e"
from full, and 179 from half pay, and t-11ej,
seemed to have been selected on any other Pr',ll7
ciple than length of service.—There were a Brea
-
many of these Officers who had served six, f°dr:
and two and a half years,—indeed, all Peri6-A
except long ones. As his Majesty's Mini ter'
had taken this step without the sanction of Pal'
liament, he should move to reduce the vote "
13,8701.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the officers whose. ie
placed on veteran battalions, had indeed thetill,rp.;
vilege of full pay when disembodied, ha,' -
forfeited all chance of promotion ; and even after
they retired, they were liable to
be calledl on
again. Officers who had so retired, were ca led
on to serve in the new battalions allud
ed to, but
they had been found too worn out and broken in
constitution to perform any military service.--
The Commander-in-Chief had selected, not ac-
cording to length of service, which was an inof
j:
proper criterion, but those who, from severity
service or incapacity, were disabled for mor:i
active duty. Some .of them, though t!wy
held commissions for a short time, had serye..
long as non-commissioned officers.
,thde
Noble fi,l r.
our3dt
hsaadi d
given at tohfe
te descriptionp
did not generally apply. But as a pledgen,9oPs;
peared to have been given them, though
petit
Ida"
improperly, he should not press his awe'
to a division. -gee
Voc,"`
Upon the proposition for a similar a
to retired officers in Ireland, cetera"
Colonel DAyins observed; that the t
corps alluded to had not oniJ been,mo,s,d, as the
perly raised, but most improperly retitle- so much
be e
maintenance of them would have
number of
less expensive than that of an equal
persons :sbeilecbc e
the regular army.

`Tie Resolution was agreed t°•
On the Resolution with re, and to the -allow
ance of. half
-pay to the officers of the foreign

I

theirerinrs
'half-pay,
country, the
2;1"•
JIUME animadverted "upon the advantage
which these officers enjoyed in the receipt of
agency paid from the public purse, whi the
latter, if in any foreign comary, were compelled.
fornoleerrhatidi-liengnattlileveexlecne: letths
to pay
for such agenty from their own pockets,
The expellee of agency for the former, rising
from a certain per centage upon the. payment of
bills, he stated to amount, within five years, to
no less than 17,76-11.; while the duty assimed by
gned to
the agent (Mr. Disney) might be perfor
two clerks in the War Office for 5001. a year.,
Lord PALME',ISTON observed, that the, tgent