The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-30 00:00:00

ultimate reduction of wages from it would be from 15 not only of carrying into effect in any future
to 25 per cent. upon the average--that it would deprive Bill, the recorded decisions of this House, that
the labouring people of the enjoyments they at present the labour to he performed by young persons and
possessed, and would tend to excite generally a spirit of females in factories should be less than twelve hours per
di,content. The petitioners, therefore, earnestly prayed day; but also with the view of maintaining good faith
the House not to sanction such a proposition. with those whose confidence in the integrity of the
Lord HOWICK presented a petition from the Short votes of this House is indispensable to its character and
Time Committee, praying the House not to allow the its existence as a deliberative and representative
Bill to be withdrawn. I assembly." Throe times had the House told the work-
Mr. BULLER presented a petition to the same effect. ing classes and the public, by these separate divisions
Mr. TATTON EGERTON presented a petition from , that twelve hours labour in the factories was too much
Hyde, in Cheshire, against the limitation of the time of for females and young persons—(Hear, hear)—and the
labour to ten hours. Government told the House and the country that they
Mr. ESTCOURT presented three petitions from , would withdraw the Bill, and introduce another which
Trowbridge, in the county of Wilt 4. The first was should still continue twelve hours as the time for labour,
signed by 54 operatives in the employment of Mr. a-id they told them that the better course wouldbe to take
Samuel Broe n. The petitioners stated that they that Bill, because if they did not they would get nothing
hail heard with alarm of the intention of the at all. On Friday the Noble Lord had made a solemn
House to restrict the hours of labour in factories appeal to the House, and had asked them to uphold
to ten. That reduction would inflict serious injury upon their former decision, and now they were about
them, inasmuch as it would necessarily lead to a reduc- to permit the Government to withdraw the
tion of wages ; and they prayed the Housenot to restrict Bill without giving any pledge as to the na-
further the hours of labour. He had also another peti-
tore of their future measures.—(Hear, hear.)
tion to the same effect, from the operatives in the em- They owed it to the dignity of the House—they owed it
ploy of Mr. Allen ; and another, with a similar prayer, to themselves—they owed it to the people—to put on
from the operatives in the employment of Mr. Appleby. record some such sentiment as that contained in the re-
Ansolution which he proposed.—(Cheers.) The Right
Hoer. ME 3113 It presented four petitions from the
operatives of Trowbridge, w ith a similar prayer. Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State had stated that there
Lord ASHLEY presented petitions from Preston, were three courses which it was open to the Government
Wigan, and Warrington, in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. to pursue ; but it had not suggested itself to the Right
Hon. Baronet and his colleagues that there was a fourth
Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition which had been
agreed to at a public meeting at Ashton, in favour of a course which they might pursue, and that was, instead
Ten Hours' Bill. of withdrawing the Bill, to withdraw themselves.—
Mr. FIE GDEN presented a petition in favour of a Ten (Cheers and laughter.) He believed that under existing
Hours' Bill: circumstances, nothing would give greater satisfaction to
THE NAVAL FORCE IN IRELAND—POOR- the country than the adoption of such a course. The
RATES. Right Hon. Baronet said, that the Cabinet had delibe-
Sir G. COCKBURN, seeing the Hon. and Gallant rated on the course which they should adopt, and that
Member for Brighton in his place, would take that op- course was, to reverse the solemn dec'sion of the
portunity, before the Orders of the Day should be read, House which had been three times recorded.
of alluding to a question which the Hon. and Gallant The Government told them frankly and openly that in
Member had put to him the other evening. The Hon. any fresh Bill which they might introduce they would
and Gallant Gentleman had asked him if he was aware not have anything short of twelve hours, and this
that the naval force had been employed in assisting in House calling itself a Reform Parliament and an elective
the collection of poor-rates in Ireland. To that he had assembly, was about to permit them to withdraw the
replied, that there was a naval force stationed on the west Bill without placing on record their solemn opinion, and
coast of Ireland, and that perhaps they might have lent the without pledging themselves as to the course which they
assistance of their moral influence to the aid of the civil would for the future pursue. The Right Hon. Baronet
power. The fact was that two steamers had been stationed put him in mind of the captain of a merchantman who
on the west coast of Ireland, in aid of the civil force, the freighted a ship to the West Indies, loaded with grind-
consequence of which was, that the presence of the mili- stones and cheeses. There was a great demand for the
tary was rendered unneccessary, and the effusion of blood, cheeses, and none whatever for the grind-stones ; find-
probably, prevented.. ing this to be the case the captain said, " If you take a
Captain PECHELL said that on the Navy estimates cheese you shall also take a grind-stone—l will
he had pointed out that one, if not two, war steamers, not part with one without the other."—(Cheers and
was employed in the collection of poor-rates in Ireland. laughter.) And there sat the Right Hon. Gentleman
The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Sir with his factories amendments in the one hand, and his
George Cockburn) denied the statement, and said twelve hours grind-stone in the other—(Laughter)—
he was not aware of any such circumstance. He saying you shall nit have the one without the other;
(Captain Pechell) subsequently produced his authority and he believed the result would be what it had been in
for his statement, and the Right Hon. Baronet, the
the case of the captain, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
Secretary of State for the Home Department made au would have his whole freight left on hand.—(Cheers and
apology for the Right Honourable and Gallant Officer, laughter.) He hoped the House would not allow any
and he (Captain Pechell) was satisfied with that Bill to pass which would continue the twelve hours
apology, but since that the Right Honourable clause. Motives had been attributed to those who sup-
and Gallant Officer came down to the House ported a ten hours' clause, which ought not to have been
and revived the subject, and acknowledged, in fact, that attributed to them. The Right Hon. Gentleman said,
the poor-rates had been collected under the guns of a the other evening, that their social system was so altered
war-steamer. The difference between him (Captain that it required an alteration in their legislation.
Pechell) and the Right Hon. Gentleman was, that the Nothing could be more true. They had arrived at a
latter said he had no cognizance of the fact of the new social system, particularly in the manufacturing
steamers being so employed, and he added that the districts. Let them look to the distress both in the
officers of those vessels had received no instructions from agricultural and manufacturing districts. Let them
the Admiralty to collect the poor-rates, but merely to look to the state of crime in those districts. The popu-
aid the civil power whereas he (Captain Pechell) lation had increased, in ten years, twelve or thirteen per
inferred that those ships of war were kept on that coast, cent., and the returns made with regard to the state of
in order that the police and officers of Government
crime showed that the criminal commitments had increased
might the better insure the collection of the poor-rates.
from fifteen to eighteen per cent. Mr. Justice Cresswell,
One of the steamers was, in fact, converted into a sort
of Somerset House.—(Cheers and laughter.) The col- in the charge which he made last summer assizes,
in Yorkshire, and Lancashire, stated that crime had in-
lectors went on board and claimed assistance of the offs- creased twofold in the last seven years; and Sir
cers, and one person went on board to pay his rates. A. Henneker declared that the state of crime in
Mr. FRENCH stated, on the authority of Dr. Kir- Suffolk was such, that they ought to use their endea-
wan, the Vicar-General of the diocese of Galway, that, yours to remove the discontents and grievances under
notwithstanding the employment of naval men in the which the agriculturists laboured. 'Well, then, he would
collection of the rate, there was still a large amount un- ask, had not a state of things taken place which re-
collected ;and if ten steamers were employed instead of
quired the vigilance of the House ? Political economists
eoe a great portion of the rate would remain uncollected. who argued the question of the repeal of the corn-laws,
FACTORIES BILL. said that, if they were removed, all difficulties in the
On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, that the way of the present subject would vanish. He (Mr. D.)
Order of the Day for going into Committee on the
believed, that if the corn-laws were repealed to-mor-
Factories Bill, for the purpose of its being discharged, row, it would be more than ever necessary to restrict
be read, the hours of labour in the manufacturing districts. He
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that he would venture to regretted the course which gentlemen connected with
tell the Noble Lord (Ashley) that he should never have the Anti-Corn-law League had taken upon the subject.
agitated the country upon this question, if he had not If they had come forward in a different manner, he
calculated beforehand, not merely every probable, but also thought they would be in a better position to ask the
every possible combination of circumstances which must landed gentlemen to agree to a repeal of the corn laws.
arise respecting it—(Laughter from the Opposition)— Sacrifices should be made by those who were better able
unless the Noble Lord was prepared to overstep all the to bear them than the working classes. If they allowed
obstacles which the Government might throw in his the present Bill to be withdrawn, they would stultify
way. It was under this impression that he voted with themselves, and be the laughing-stock and ridicule of the
the Noble Lord. He therefore expected, after the ener- country. He would not be dragged in the mire with
getic manner in which the Noble Lord expressed him- the Noble Lord, or any other person. He would entreat
self the other evening—he thought he would be pre- of the House, in the words of the Noble Lord, to-uphold
pared to carry out those views to the full extent. He the decision to which they had come. It had been said
would say that he considered the conduct of her Ma- that it was for the convenience of Government they
jesty's Government had displayed infinitely more ap- should not oppose the rescinding of the Standing Order.
parent earnestness than that of the Noble Lord. The He (Mr. Duncombe) offered no opposition to the re-
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State was de- scinding of that order. He only put on record his rea-
feated on the twelve hours' clause on Monday ; on sons, at all events, and those of'the gentlemen who might
Friday he brought the question before the House again. do him the honour of voting with him, for not allowing the
It was an unusual course; but no doubt the Right Hon. present Bill to be withdrawn; and also the views which
Gentleman thought himself justified in adopting it. He he thought ought to be entertained in that House of the
was again defeated on the twelve hours' clause, introduction of any new Bill fur the better regulation of
and succeeded only by a very small majority in de- labour in factories.
feating the ten hours' clause.. -He then asked for further Sir C. NAPIER seconded the amendment.
delay in order to decide what should be done. The Lord ASHLEY said, that not having had the advan-
Right Hon. Baronet said he would enter into no corn- tare of hearing the first part of the speech of the Hon.
promise whatever, and then proposed to withdraw the Member for Bridport (Mr. B. Cochrane), it was impos-
Bill. Now what he wanted to know from the Noble sible for him to reply to any imputations which the Hon.
Lord was this, why he did not carry out his principal Gentleman might have thrown out against him. He
object by opposing the withdrawal? 'What was the Bill should, therefore, be content to let those imputations rest
the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to introduce—was it as they were, merely observing, that in many instances
not the very same as the present Bill with the twelve hour the Hon. Gentleman had applied to the Noble Member
clause left out ? Why that clause was already struck for Sunderland (Lord Howick) much that ought to have
out by the Committee. Everybody in that House and been said against him (Lord Ashley), and that he
many out of it knew that the object of the Right lion. ought to have directed against the Noble Member for Sun-
Baronet was to gain time, for after Easter there would derland much that he had applied to himself (Lord A.)
benoprobability of carrying the ten hour clause.—(Hear, With respect to one point, he wished to say a word.
hear.) The Noble Lord might tell him that it was an The Hon. Gentleman had, at some length, argued on
unusual course to object to the withdrawal of the Bill. the monstrous absurdity of his (Lord Ashley) pressing
Had he not himself told the Right Hon. Baronet that he for a Ten Hours' Bill, when he admitted it would lead
had adopted a most unusual course? He thought this to a reduction of wages. What he (Lord Ashley) had
question was one in which if any man put his hand to the said was, that, for the sake of argument, he would sup-
plough he ought not ever to look back again.—(Hear, pose that the measure would lead to a reduction of
hear.) Her Majesty's Government had declared this wages ; and that if it did so, the party whose interests he
question was a party question. 'Would they not equally represented were perfectly ready to meet the reduction;
declare it a party question after Easter as they did now? and that they would state the means by which they
To those who knew what the House of Commons was, would be able to render the reduction not injurious to
the consenting to the withdrawal was " keeping the them. He would explain this course he had taken in
word of promise to the ear, and breaking it to the hope." a few words. He had begun by doing that which the Hon.
The fourteen or fifteen days that would elapse would Member for Bridport had not done. He early took
give Government an opportunity for agitating the ques- advice from those who were capable of giving it. When
tion. He had understood that it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed the course of
the Noble Viscount to go into certain districts, and there withdrawing the present Bill ; be (Lord Ashley) was
agitate the subject. Now this he would say, with re- taken by surprise as was the House also, and the
spect to agitation. He had supported the Noble Lord House certainly required some time to be granted before
on this question; he had taken the deepest interest in it; coming to a decision as to the course to be pursued.
but he objected to all agitation out of doors, whether During that interval he had consulted many
with respect to the corn-laws, or repeal, or factories. gentlemen who had voted with him—not gen-
He thought questions of such vital importance to the tlemen on one side of the House who might be
country should be discussed calmly, dispassionately, supposed to have a sympathy with Ministers, but a great
and solemnly in that House.—(Hear.) Even though many on the other side, who gave him the advice they
the measure were a good one, if it could only be carried thought best on the question, totally irrespective of any
by exciting all those who had an interest in it out of consequences but those which must arise to the general
doors, that was, prima facie, an objection to it.—(Hear, benefit of the question. By the vote of the House oa
hear.) There was one point in the Noble Lord's speech the second clause, the principle of ten hours had been
the other night, to which he could not help alluding. affirmed, but by the vote on the Bth clause, it was de-
He was never more astonished than when the Noble Glared that there should be no such thing ; the Bill had
Lord said that, in his opinion, the ten hours' clause thus become a mass of inextricable confusion, and it was
would reduce wages. If he (Mr. Cochrane) believed quite impossible that it could go forward ; and the Go-
that the Bill would reduce wages, he would have no- • vernment suggested, as the only means of relieving the
thing to do with it.—(Hear, hear, and cheers from both question from these difficulties, to withdraw the Bill
sides of the House.) lion. Gentlemen must allow him before the House, with a promise (for this was a very
to have his own opinion in reference to the effect of this important matter) that another Bill be substituted in
enactment. He had supported the ten hours' clause, its place.—(Hear, hear.) His own impression was, that
and he would continue to support it ; but he had his this motion ought to be acceded to ; but that impression
own reasons for the course which he pursued.—(Hear, was confirmed by the advice of gentlemen of the greatest
hear.) He conceived that in most cases the clause could experience. If he had persisted in saying to the Go-
not reduce wages much. Most of the manufacturing vernment, "You shall not withdraw this Bill, I will try
towns had arrived at the minimum of wages.—(Expres- a debate on that subject," what would be the effect of
sions of dissent.) He thought the manufacturers such a course ? It had always been his policy, during
would be amply compensated for the reduction of time. eleven years, to avoid as much as possible taking
He was not one who would stand up and abuse manu- debates and divisions upon mere technicalities,
facturers or any other class of persons, as though they upon mere points cif order. He never had consented to
had not the same feelings and sympathies as other men ; take a debate or division except upon a great issue,
and he believed they would find themselves compensated and he was happy to say that that cause had been
for the two hours' labour at night, by the additional crowned with prosperity. Questions of that sort, so
nerve and energy which the work-people would bring to conducted, led to no satisfactory result. And even if he
their morning's work. He believed that the effect would had succeeded, he would not have been in a better posi-
be that the employed would have a fair day's wages for tion then than now. But to succeed was impossible.
a fair day's work. But even if the Bill should ulti- Instead of succeeding, be would have been left in so
mately be found to reduce wages, his opinion was that small a minority, that he would venture to say, that the
the Noble Lord should in that case follow the example majority of the Government, instead of being 7or 10,
of Mr. Whitbread, in 1795, and bring in a Bill to regu- would have been 70 or 80, or perhaps nearly 100.—
late wages.—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear.") He was (Hear, hear.) And in what position would the ques-
not afaid that this discussion would not have the result tion be then in ? Would it not be taken by the country and
which he had desired. He was afraid that the time of by the great body whose opinions he (Lord Ashley) repre-
the House had been lost.—(Laughter and ironical cheer- seated ; would not the operative classes, who felt so
ing.) He would ask any unprejudiced person to look at strongly on this measure, consider such a majority as a
the state of the case. The Noble Lord had appealed to decisive expression of the opinion of that House against the
the House the other night in terms most unusual. great principle which they had so long cherished ?
He appealed to the House—to his supporters—not to (Hear, hear.) That was the reason why he (Lord
give way an inch—not to give the ground they had Ashley) formed that opinion ; but when he found his
taken ; and yet, on Friday night, when he had kept views confirmed by those of gentlemen of the greatest
Members in town for the purpose of voting with him, experience—not only on that (the Ministerial) side of the
then he told them that, after Easter, he would decide House, who might be supposed to have a sympathy
upon the course he would pursue.—(A laugh.) He un- with the Government—but also from Hon. Members op..
derstood that to be so, and if he was wrong he was posite, who had none, he could no longer hesitate to
sorry for making the statemen t.—(Hear.) He was adopt the course he had adopted, and which the interests
afraid the country had been agitated, and the time of of this very question required. And let it not be said,
the House had been frittered away, for no purpose. He because insinuations had been thrown out that he had
believed this bad occurred not from want of sincerity some personal feeling in these matters, and that he had
on the part of the Noble Lord, but from a want of the considered other interests than those of which he spoke.
exercise of that firmness which was necessary in all the —(No, no.) Such had been stated, per vulgum spargere
relations of life.—(Hear.) voces amtiguas. He would fearlessly maintain the
Mr. T. Duncombe and Lord Ashley rose together, position he had maintained irrespective of any Govern-
when the latter gave way. - meat which existed or might exist. The Hon. Gentleman
Mr. DUNCOMBE then proceeded to address the said he (Lord Ashley) had compelled the House to meet
House. He thought it was better to do so before the cn Friday, and then announced his intention of aban-
Noble Lord, as he would probably have to make some doning the Bill. Why, if the Hon. Gentleman had been
answer to the amendment he was about to propose. and in the House on Wednesday, he would not have said
also to the statements that had been made by the Right that the House was taken by surprise.—(Hear.)
Hon. Baronet opposite. If Ministers had made a House Again, the Hon. Gentleman said he had asked for
yesterday, it was his intention to have given notice of time to make up his mind ; he had done no such thing ;
the amendment he was now about to propose. He par- he had stated what course he intended to pursue as to
ticipated in the surprise of the Hon. Gentleman who had this Bill, but of course he could not say what course he
just sat down, and also in his expressions of regret at would take oa a Bill that was not yet introduced.—
the course the Noble Lord had thought it right to pursue. (Hear, hear.) If he could see the Right Hon. Baronet's
He (Mr. Duncombe) had fought with the Noble Lord Bill on Monday morning, be should have no objection to
in the ranks which he had commanded, up to the present come down to the House and state the course he in-
moment, and it certainly was extremely to be regretted tended to pursue with regard to it immediately after the
that, in the very moment of victory, he should have sitting of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know
adopted the course he had pursued.—(Hear, hear.) The that be had any other point to refer to, as he did not
amendment which he was about to propose would wish to detain the House on matters that were personal
take from those who had voted with him the to himself. But he must say that he did not think the
charge of being inconsistent. He thought it would advice of the Hon. Gentleman to discuss this question
be better that he should now read the amendment with calmness was very applicable to himself.—
he intended to propose. It was as follows : (Hear, hear.) This he might say, that in all the
That after the words, " for the purpose of being discussions on this question, he had.maintained his
discharged," to add the words ;—" With a view, tranquillity up t 9 this time, and he could assure the

house that that tranquillity was not only external hut
internal. He had never felt angry or exasperated with
any one gentleman opposed to him, and indeed if he had
he must have been one of the most unreasonable and
ungrateful Members who ever sat in that House, for he
was sure that no Hon. Member had ever received from
all sides of the House, and from every Member in it,
such constant and unmerited kindness and courtesy.
But they would allow him to say that he did implore
the House to stand by its recorded decision on this
question. He declared that no earthly consideration
whatever should turn him from the course he had endea-
voured to pursue, and in pursuing it he cared not what
personal consequences might fall on his own head.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said the circumstance of the
Noble Lord not having been in the House while he ad-
dressed it, might excuse him for having misrepresented
what he (Mr. Cochrane) had said. He totally denied
that he had insinuated that there was any understanding
between the Noble Lord and the Government. He de-
clared his belief that the Noble Lord was perfectly sin-
cere, and he begged the Noble Lord now to withdraw
that expression "insinuated." He would not have in-
sinuated such a thing, even had ho believed it. But he
certainly did believe that the Noble Lord had committed
a great error in judgment.
Lord ASHLEY could assure the Hon. Gentleman
that he would withdraw any expression of which he
complained. He explained that he did not impute to
the Hon. Gentleman the having charged him with com-
ing to an understanding with the Government, but, as he
was reported to him, to have said that he (Lord Ashley)
did not press on the measure from a sort of sympathy for
the Government.

be done to the authority of the House, were the best
suited to the treat interests which he had so much at
heart.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his Noble Friend
near him, that if the Government were not permitted to
withdraw the Bill which they themselves introduced.
they would say they were not treated with that courtesy •
to which the executive government was entitled.—(Hear,
hear.) The question would be then changed. Instead
of arguing the question as a legislative one—as affecting
the hours of labour—it would be changed into a question
of confidence in the Government. Therefore he
concurred with his Noble Friend as to the
course he adopted, and considering the minority
against him on the question he thought he
could not have acted otherwise than he had.—(Hear.)
He differed with the Hon. Member for Finsbury in
thinking that the Noble Lord had disappointed those
whose case he advocated. As far as their interests were
concerned, he thought the Noble Lord had taken the
most wise and prudent course.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did
not attempt to influence his Noble Friend, and if he
came to the opposite course and opposed the withdrawing
of the Bill, he should give his vote. He now came
to a very different question, which was themode in which
the Noble Lord proposed to deal with the Bill which
was to be brought in. The Government had already got
rid of the whole of the decisions of the House by a course
which, though it might be convenient in itself, was the
least fair that could be adopted.—(Hear, hear.) It
would therefore remain for the Noble Lord to consider
in what way he wished to have the issue tried. He was
sure the Noble Lord would do it in such a way as to
make it a proper question of legislation, and that be
would bring it before the House as a House of Parlia-
ment—because, let them recollect, after the doctrine of
the Right Honourable Gentleman when in oppo-
sition, and which it seemed he now followed
in Government most consistently—that Acts of
Parliament were not passed by the Queen's Most Ex-
cellent Arajesty, by and with the advice and consent of
the confidential servants of her Majesty, but by the
advice and consent of the House of Commons, in Parlia-
ment assembled.—(Hear, hear.) What we have to con-
sider with respect to the Bills brought forward, and
which may be hereafter enacted, is, whether we can
take upon ourselves the responsibility of passing these
provisions into a law—whether these will, or will not,
beneficially affect the great body of the people of this
country.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen have no right
to escape from the responsibility which attaches to them
as Members of Parliament, merely by saying, it is a very
great hardship that persons of thirteen or fourteen years
of age should be obliged to labour twelve hours a day,
and yet, at the same time, consider themselves as forced
to agree with a Government which puts forward a diffe-
rent opinion. He did not think the Government had
any right to make this a question upon which their in-
fluence must be ascertained, and upon which Members
of Parliament should shut their eyes to the merits of the
question, forget the responsibility of their position, and
say they had such confidence in the present Executive,
and such dislike to a change, that they must with-
draw that support from the Bill which they would
otherwise conscientiously have given.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Lord John Russell) must declare thus his opinion,
because he saw that this question of responsibility of
Members of Parliament was undergoing great change
in the manner in which it was put forward. He had
understood in the first instance that the Government, as
was their peculiar duty, and as would be most conve-
nient to the public, would consider the subject with the
best attention, and, having done so, frame a Bill in a
careful manner; then bring it before the House that its
provisions might be fully considered as by. a legislative
body they should be; and that these provisions might be
affirmed or negatived, as the case might be. But it ap-
peared from the statements of the Hon. Gentleman who
spoke last, that hereafter, when a difficult question was
to be considered, and that the Government were dis-
posed to say, "We think this so detrimental to our
views, so injurious to our influence, that our power must
be exerted, and we must call upon our supporters to
vote with us, regardless of the merits of the question
itself," hon. Members were not to be prompted in their
votes by any statements that might be made in the course
of the debate, but as they wished the Government to be
maintained, and no change to take place, they must vote
for a twelve hours' clause instead of ten.—(Hear.) He
feared such was the notion that prevailed on the benches
opposite—a notion which, he feared would be detri-
mental to the character and usefulness of that House,
and even to the Constitution itself. He did not think it
was for the advantage of the country that the Govern-
ment should consider itself bound to carry every mea-
sure and every provision which it presented to Parlia-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard that doctrine
stated by some, and especially by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
and by the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies,
when sitting on these benches. They were then dis-
posed to require more than perhaps could be prac-
tically effected. If that House was about to come to a
decisive vote, and show its want of confidence in the
Ministry as an executive, then it might be considered
as a question of party support ; but with respect to
questions affecting the whole body of the people, on large
legislative questions, he hoped that that House would
maintain its legislative authority, and not vote merely
as puppets, at the will of the Ministers.—(Hear, hear.)
Having stated these opinions, he would not say a word
as to the merits of the Bill itself ; and, as his Noble
Friend had come to what he (Lord J. Russell) consi-
dered a wise decision in the course he had taken on
that evening, he trusted he would steadfastly persevere
in the same course.—(Cheers.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he quite admitted the just
distinction which the Noble Lord had drawn between
the functions and responsibilities of individual Members
of the House of Commons and the functions and respon-
sibilities of members of the Executive Government.
The Noble Lord said that the members of the Govern-
ment were immediately responsible to the Sovereign for
the advice which they might give—that they stood in a
different position to the Sovereign with Members of the
House of Commons, and that it was incumbent on the
House of Commons well to weigh the merits of each
question, and to consider whether or not it would confer
practical benefit on the country. The Noble Lord
admitted that the members of the Government, although
they stood in a certain relation towards the So-
vereign, and had certain peculiar duties, yet
he did not seem to consider sufficiently that
the members of the Government had the same
privileges as other Hon. Members, and were bound by
the same obligations, and that it was necessary for them,
in their capacity of legislators, to see whether or no they
would be responsible for the practical consequences of
of certain acts.—(Hear.) If the Members of the Govern-
ment doubted the policy of certain measures it was their
duty and their privilege to consider such measures in the
capacity of Members of Parliament, and to give their
advice to Parliament, and to take their course in that
individual capacity. The Noble Lord said, and he freely
admitted, that in many measures the sense of the Legis-
lature ought to prevail ; that if no great principle was
involved--that if no very dangerous consequences must
be apprehended, the Government ought not to call upon
Parliament to support them, nor stake their existence
upon carrying such a measure. But they ought to pay
a certain deference to the will of the majority. The
Noble Lord was not always of this opinion (and he was
not disposed to speak in a tone of personal asperity).
The Noble Lord, he said, had not always been disposed
to act upon those principles, as, for instance, in the Eccle-
siastical Courts' Bill.

Lord HOWICK said he had, on a former evening,
expressed a very strong objection to the withdrawal of
this Bill. He wished now to state why he concurred
in the course which the Noble Lord was now about to
take. His Noble Friend had, two or three evenings
ago, informed him, that he had ascertained that if he
resisted the discharge of the order he would be in a
small minority. He thought that, under these circum-
stances, it was necessary that the Noble Lord should
defer to the wishes of his supporters.—(Hear, hear.)
Stilt, he must say, that, in his judgment, the course
taken by her Majesty's Government was anything but
respectful to the House. What was it which they asked
the House to do ? They asked them to discharge the
order for proceeding with the present Bill, stat-
ing that they would afterwards bring in a new Bill.
This Bill, though it would have a new title, would be the
same in substance as the old one. Like that Bill, it
would introduce the system of relays with regard to
children, and the regulations with regard to education.
Like that Bill, it would impose restrictions upon the
labour of grown-up women and children; and, unlike
what the House determined, it would provide that the
period of labour for young children and grown-up
women should be twelve hours. The effect of the course
which her Majesty's Government had taken would be
that without any division, with the tacit consent of the
House, they would reverse the former division, and
this by an indirect and altogether unusual proceeding.
The Government virtually defeated the decision of the
House, and would place them once more in the situation
in which they were before they began this discussion,
or began to divide. Now that was a most strange course
to pursue. If the Government thought they could in-
duce the House to reconsider their decision, their proper
course would have been to have moved the recommittal
of the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) But, in order to gain some
advantage, and in order to do exactly what they had
succeeded in doing, they threw confusion into the ranks
of those who were in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill. Her
Majesty's Government, by these means, had brought
them into the same situation they were in before the de-
bate began. He thought that this was a most extraor-
dinary course ; and he could not but express his regret
that the Noble Lord seemed to have deserted those who
went along with him in resisting the withdrawal of the
Bill. Supposing that in Committee his friend
should carry his proposal—why, her Majesty's
Government might repeat the manoeuvre they
had just performed. Now, as to the inconsistency of
the two divisions that had taken place, he thought that
of no importance whatever, because if the House had
only made up its mind what amendment it was prepared
to support, an end would be put at once to that incon-
sistency. He thought from the course that had been
pursued in the House that a compromise was intended—
that the House, having stated that it would not adopt a
Twelve Hours' Bill, or a Ten Hours' Bill—that the
medium between the two would have been taken, and an
Eleven Hours' Bill passed. Now, he should have thought
that the Government would have adopted a wise course
if they had brought in such a Bill. He firmly believed
that if a Bill reducing the hours of labour to eleven had
been passed it would have met with cordial support.
In his opinion, a reduction of wages would be the con-
sequence of a diminution of the time of labour ; but he
thought it would be less than the Right Hon. Gentleman
supposed, and he (Lord Howick) thought it would be
quite consistent to support the clause under that belief.
This was in itself an evil, no doubt ; but the question
here was a choice of two evils—one was a reduction of
wages, the other that the continuance of labour for twelve
hours broke down the strength of those who were sub-
jected to it.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") That was his (Lord
Hot Nick's opinion ; he was no judge on the subject, and
he only derived his opinion from the inspectors of
factories, on whose reports the Government acted, and
who quoted the authority of medical officers, that a
perseverance at labour for twelve hours was too
much for women or children. These were the
two evils, and he confessed that he would
rather see a reduction of wages than a con-
tinuance of labour for twelve hours.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought it his duty to waive his own individual opi-
nion in deference to the opinion of his Noble Friend and
of those who acted with him—of course, therefore, it
was impossible for him to vote for the motion of the
Hon. Member for Finsbury. He would wait till the
new Bill was brought in, to discuss the principle upon
which he thought the clause of his Noble Friend was
necessary.
Sir R. INGLIS said that the fault committed by his
Noble Friend, if any, was a fault of omission. He had
not stated, he thought, with sufficient distinctness what
line he intended to pursue with regard to the motion
of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, but 'he had every
belief that his Noble Friend intended to give his motion
a decided negative. He wished they were all able to
follow the example of his Noble Friend, for he had
never introduced into discussion anything like excite-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) He regretted he could not say so
of others.—(Hear, hear.) This was not a party ques-
tion, but it was of a character which excited feelings
higher than one of party would.—(Hear, hear.) He
trusted that the example set them by his Noble Friend
would be followed by them all. He regretted
that such an apple of discord was thrown amongst them
as the proposition of the Hon. Member for Finsbury,
which, though it was not inconsistent with the course
he pursued, yet it was inconsistent with the understand-
ing upon which his Noble Friend addressed the House
a few evenings ago. With regard to what had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Bridport, he did not under-
stand that Hon. Member to insinuate anything against
his Noble Friend, but merely that he had not carried his
principles forward with such sternness as the Govern-
ment had carried them.

Mr. ACLAND said he was one of those who, feeling
the great responsibility which attached not only to those
in office but to every individual Member of Parliament,
upon this subject, had made up his mind to vote with the
Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire, and he did so
from the general feeling that this question was not to be
dealt with exclusively upon humane or commercial
grounds, but upon the ground that it should to
considered in both points of view.—(Hear, hear.) Es
was inclined to adopt this course, in consequence of
speeches from his side of the House, in which he thought
there was too rigid an application of the principles of
political economy. He did not understand the senti-
ments of contempt which had been cast upon those who
adopted a middle course, and were in favour of eleven
hours.—(Hear, hear.) lie thought that after what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Leeds, who said that
it was the universal practice of a large body of manu-
facturers to work for eleven hours, such a modification
might be adopted. With regard to the position of the
Government, he confessed that he was not prepared to
place some person in the Home-office, who would execute
as well as carry a Ten Hours' Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He
knew that taking this course would subject him to per-
sonal insinuations, but he was prepared to submit to
them, because he knew they would be undeserved. The
Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire had very clearly
shown that this was not a question of principle, but one
of detail. He thought that if the hours of labour were to
be curtailed, it ought to be done with the good will
of the Government, and that if carried it ought to be by
those who had to work the measure. He had expressed
his honest opinion with regard to the course he had in-
tended to pursue. He did not suppose that the Govern-
ment would turn round and say they were prepared to carry
a Ten Hours' Bill.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The Noble
Lord did not intend that his clause should come into
operation till two years and a half. By that time he
hoped that the question of protection to labour would be
cleared of some of its difficulties.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that before alluding to the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down,
he would make a few remarks upon the position in
which the House was placed by the course which the
Government pursued on this question. He thought
that in consequence of it, coupled with the motion of the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, the authority of the House
of Commons would receive a blow.—(Hear, hear.) No
doubt the course pursued by the Government was the
most convenient for ,them, but the authority of the
House must suffer by it.—(Hear.) He certainly under-
stood from the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorset-
shire, that he came to some understanding with the
Government that the discussion as to twelve hours or
ten hours should be taken on the Bth clause,
instead of the second.—(Hear, hear.) The House de-
cided by two separate decisions on the subject after
two nights' debate, separated by Saturday and Sunday,
so that there was an opportunity for a full attendance
of Members who chose to be present in favour of the
Noble Lord's proposition.—(Hear, hear.) There were
two decisions on the eighth clause ; by the first the
House negatived the proposition of twelve hours, and by
the second they negatived the proposition of ten hours.
There were three decisions—two against twelve hours and
one against ten hours. It became necessary therefore
either that the former decision of the House should be
reversed, or that it should be avowed, or that the middle
course of eleven hours should be adopted. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman proposed to withdraw the Bill, which
would frustrate the three decisions to which the House
had come, and substitute for it another Bill, which
should continue the twelve hours for those persons who,
by two decisions of the House, were to be subjected to
no more than ten. It was impossible that this could be
done without shaking the opinion of the country gene-
rally as to the authority of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Why, then, did not the Noble Lord oppose
that course ? Upon grounds which appeared to
him (Lord J. Russell) to be quite sufficient ; which,
while they met 1.4 e misclnvf and injury which would

Lord J. RUSSELL—The majority was on the other
side in that question.
Sir ROBERT PEEL bogged the Noble Lord's
pardon. The measure would not have succeeded. But
ho did not mean to taunt the Noble Lord with his
former policy. He (Sir R. Peel) was certainly not aware
that the Government had on this occasion adopted any
unseemly means, or held out any threat or inducement.
They certainly had a strong feeling on the matter, and
they felt it their duty to persevere. They called upon
the House for its deliberate consideration, nor did he
apprehend that they were acting otherwise than consti-
tutionally, even where there was a small majority, in
bringing the matter again under discussion, so that
Hon. Members might have an opportunity of reconsi-
dering the subject. Was the Noble Lord prepared to
say that the decision of the House was always conclu-
sive ? If that was the case what was the use of all
those stages through which a Bill must pass before it
was finally disposed of ? It was nothing inconsistent with
constitutional usage in Parliamentary practice to take
the sense of the House again on the same question.
Now, why had the Government pursued this course?
Was the House perfectly convinced of the propriety of
the change? Were Hon. Members on the other side of
the House quite agreed as to the proposition of the
Noble Lord? Did not the Noble Lord the Member for
Sunderland say he had great difficulty in making up his
mind on the subject? Did not the Noble Lord the
Member for the City of London himself say, that ho
had the greatest doubts on the matter? Did not two
prominent Members of the late Government, gentlemen,
of the greatest experience—the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Vice-Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, express opinions con-
trary to those which were sought to be carried
into law, and declared themselves unfavourable to
placing any restraints upon labour as likely to prove
injurious to the working classes, and to the commercial
interests of the country ? Did not the Noble Lord, at
one time, express opinions regarding those very princi-
ples very different from what ho formerly expressed ?
Not that he meant to taunt the Noble Lord for his
change of opinion on this matter ; for he was sure it
was owing to the result of conscientious change of
opinion, and to new lights having been thrown in upon
the subject. But the Noble Lord should not imply any
censure on the Members of the present Government for
the opinions they entertained. But, it was said, why
should not the Government admit a compromise, and it
was urged that a compromise was often very desirable, in
order to prevent this union ; but he (Sir Robert Peel)
must say that the policy of such a proceeding
altogether depended upon circumstances. The Govern-
ment approached this subject with a firm conviction
that it would not be wise or proper to place any further
limitations upon labour —they believed that further
restraints would be injurious to commerce, to manufac-
tures, and to the working classes themselves. A limi-
tation had been already placed upon the hours of labour
for females in factories between the ages of thirteen to
eighteen. It was enacted, that they should not work
longer than twelve hours. Now, in consequence of this
restraint on young females—adult females became more
generally employed ; and the Government thought it
necessary to apply the same principles to
adult females which the Legislature had formerly
sanctioned in females who were not adults. He (Sir R.
Peel) was adverse to interfere with labour—it had been
productive of disadvantage, and he feared would be so.
—(Hear, hear.) The House might depend upon it, that
the principle of interference with labour in any state
was dangerous. Experience had shown them that such
interference was rather to be avoided than sanctioned.
It was a dangerous precedent. But it was said that if
the Government had acceded to a limitation of eleven
hours, they would have had a majority, and might have