The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-16 00:00:00

funded and unfunded debt for the year end-
ing January, 1826; also the amount of the money
applied towards the redemption of the funded debt
during the same.periody and an account of the money
remaining in the Exchequer on the sth of January,
1827.—Ordered.
Mr. SPRING RICE renewed his question of
Tuesday night..as to Whether it was the intention
Of his Majesty's Ministers to suffer the Act for the
suppression of the Catholic Association to expire, or
whether they intended to renew it.
Mr. LAMB said that the Act would not expire
until the close of the present Session, and that he
could not give any answer respecting, it, for the Go-
vernment had not as vet had time to take the.matter
into their consideration,
G. DAWSON moved. the third reading of
the Exchequer for the:year, 1828. Read
a third time and passed. . -
Mr. DAWSON moved the third' reading of the
Transfer of Aids Bill for 1828. Read a third time
and passed:
Mr. WI% SMITH presented a petition from the
Protestant 'Dissenters, in and near London, prayin
for a repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts. Or.
dered to be printed.
Lord CASTLEREAGH presented a petitior
from the Catholic Inhabitants of Loughin Island, in
the county Down, praying for a removal of the-Ca-
tholic disabilities.
Mr.-DAWSON- presented a petition for the in.
corporation of the Dublin Steam Packet Company.
—Laid on the table.
• Mr; CALCRAFT presented a petition for the
incorporation of the East London Railway.—Laid
on the table.
Mr. WOOD presented a petition for a Bill for the
better regulation of the Poll at Elections at, Preston.
—Laid on the table.
The,Knight of KERRY presented a petition for
a Canal from Tralee to Blennerville.
Mr. GORDON presented a petition for a' Bill to
make a Canal from Portsmouth to London.—Laid
on the table. - . • ,
TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. •
Mr.- WARD presented a petition from Plaistow,
in .Essex, in favour of the repeal of the Test and
-Corporation ActS. petitions were presentee
from Salkeld, in Cumberland, by Mr. Marshall;'hj
Mr.:6uest, from Perdsey, in the West Ridingla
Yorkshire; by Mr. Legard, from Kidderminster, Wm.
cestersliire; by Mr John Martin, from Sodbury, am
three other places, in Gloucestershire; by Lore
Stanley, from Grosvenor-street chapel;' Manchester
from Preston, from Coverstoke, and from
Glide; by Sir Francis Baring, from Ly'
mingtOn, in the county of Southampton, and fron
Litchfield in the county of Herts; by Mr. Warbur
ton from Cardigan, and from HOlken, in Essex; bi
Mr. Jones, from Abergwilly, in the county of Car
natwon ; by Mr. Craddock, from Harlington, ii
Devon, from I3loxfield,' in Suffolk, from Exeter'
from Osnestry, Salop, and live other places; by Mr
B. Baring, from the Dissenters of Hitchinfield ;
Mr. J. Wood, from Dockley, in Lancaster; by. Mr,
Easthope, from Chaldon, Gloucester, Battersea,
and some other places.
THE MALT ACT.

Mr. WODEIIOI.IiSE presented a petition from
•Walsingitatn, and other places in Norfolk, com-
plaining- of the-penalties to which they were subject
uoder the Malt-Act. - -- -- -- • - 1
.31r. GROSYENOR pre*eilled a petition from
the maltsters of Chester relative to the Act of last
Session.-.-4)rdered to be piloted. .
-.PUBLIC REVENUE.,- .
Air._ MA) - moved that AccouritS be laid
. . _ .
on the tablell.of the Public Revenue from the
year 1820 to the . lst of . January, 1828, and
also no Account oe - the Expenditure ' within
the same period, distinguishing the amount ap-
plied for the reduction of the Funded and Unfunded'
Debt.—Ordered.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved for returns of
the quantity of Corn . and Meal.,exported from Ire-,
land since the .sth. Jan. last ; also an account of the
quantity of Butter,- Bacon, and Cattle, impin ted
within the same period.
~.
. .• - INSOLVENT DEBTOII, - A CT. ,
Mr.-HUME moved for Returos of the persons
discharged under the Insolvent Debtors' Act since
the Ist .fan., :1813, and the number remanded and
opposed.—Ordered. .
FINANCE COMMITTEE. . •
Mr. PEEL moved that that part of his Majesty's Speech
respecting the Finance of the Country be. now.read,
The Clerk having read it, . .
Mr.- PEEL rose and said, -I have Moved, Sir, that
that part of his - Majesty's Speech which refers to the
state of the Income and Expenditure of this country
may he read, not merely in compliance with the usage
that has prevailed on similar occasions, but in order
that. I ,may introduce the proposition whiel 1 am about
to make, _under - the highest auspices, and claim fitr
it the sanction of the first authorities of this land.--
Sir, this propOsition for the appointment of a Finance
Committee is not a novel thing; at -varetis ieriods
of 'the history of this. country, Committees have been
instituted .at the recommendation of -the. Hoitse, for the
Purpose of examining not only the expenditure and
income of the country, but also for the purpose of
subtnittinig to this House their opinion upon the possi-
bility of establishing a snore effectual control over the ex-
penditure, and of making any reduction compatible with
the necessities of the country. In 1786, some short time
after the termination of the American War, a Finance-
Committee was appointed, _on the recommendation of Mr.
Pitt. Again, in 1796, a similar Committee was appointed,
over which the present Lord Colchester presided, and with
an ability which has conferred on him the greatest honour,
and from the exertions of, Such Committees, so presided
over, essential benefits have been derived. In 1807, 1
think, • on the recommendation of the present Lord Lans-
downe, a Committee was recommended, having a similar
object. In 191/a Committee of this sort was also moved
fur by Lord Castlereagh; Sir, by an entirely fortuitous,
but somewhat singular concidence, the same period of
titne has elapsed between all three. In 1786 was the
first - appointment ; in- 1796, ten years
_afterwards,
the next was appointed ; early .in 1807 another was
appointed ; in 18k7 again, after a lapse of precisely the
same period, the next was appointed ; and new, in 1828,
accidentally, no doubt, but after the lapse of the same period,
I come forward to propose to this House the inetitution.of
a similar Coutuaittee. Sir, I do not - propose this
Committee from- any of the motives which have,
in i the course --of ,the • casual --conversations that
have taken place, been 'sometimes ' insinuated.--With
respect to the objects, I do assure the House Ido not
propose this Committee -as the reluctant - fulfilment of a
_pledge given by a former Government. ' I propose it- from
.a. conviction which I have long entertained, and 'which has
been confirmed by the examinations I have made into the
Aocuntents connected with this subject—from a- delibe-
rate conviction that the . time- has .now come, when we
m
• •••
ust look fairly and firmly at the state of the Finance. I de
not pfopose :this Committee with the object of deluding
the people, and of gettinurecommtaidations, or of found-
_ ing, on the recommendation of this Committee, application!'
fur increased taxation. I propose the Committee because
't believe it will honestly execute the duties required by it,
, and because. I believe if those duties are fairly exalt ed,
die CeVernfrieut and country at large, will derive,import •
ant benefits from its appointment. -It, -perhaps,' may be
unnecessary for me, as it would certainly be- much more..
agreeable' to. myself, if my labours were confined to-a state-
ment simply of the views, and,to the.proposal of tke names
perhaps, ?nay be unneec,sary
of these who are to be. the Members of this Cormnittee-,a,
... fhi Fa, - • - • .
ttiat:4 should much exceed a
:brie ae. tionotthese two topics. tut I think I have infer+, il
frit& the 'conversations that have already, taken place„-that a
general expectation has
:i.....,_-.......: entertained that .- I ,shonlil
preface the, proposal fu tine appoin tine!' t of , this. Coin;
mitts
by. some. genefill ,refrence to the *tate. ,of--the
Finiiiicg of this country. Sir, .1 -should -he-sorry tii
,i;steaidint - that ' general- expe,....ta-tion, but .. at the
.Ba"'in;;
:-dine, I ant coofident lin attempting _ti
Itatije, .'the 'l4Ol-4 will extend 'to One its indulgence
be,.atoe -: it will recollect • this statement has Hot heed
intimately connectial with the particular Department
peculiar
ci i
avehadi:curt
th;;anc
Irorets in ri •
Avhic
ott :tofihlli ja:etl been'sa.that: under the
placed, Called
upon withim so late a periOd to return to the serVice.of the
Crown, I-really have not had time to give tL't attention
to the subject Which- it . so- richly deservei, and which
might have compensated for the disability under which
at any time I should have laboured in attempting to
bring forward the subject. But, Sir, I shall attempt. to
, state, not only my view of the Finance, but the general
outline of the facts with respect to the expenditure
and the int:obit of this country, for some short time past.

If there he any merit in the statement I am about to
make, it will be only this, that I shall attempt to
state the facts fairly, without concealing any thing._
(Hear, hear.)—because I am perfectly satisfied that nothing
can be more impolitic than to mystify the public.
Financeof the country. These things are, in fact, more sim-
ple than they appear to he on a superficial view : there ia
np difference whatever between the expenditure of indivi-
duals, end that of a country. They depend upon the same
principle, and you might as well say with respect to the rule,
of arithmetic, applied in making common calculations, they
do not apply to the subdivision of millions; as that
.the Finance, aft.. considering all,aniust not rest upon
the same principles, and be goVerned by the same
views as the finance of an individual. I shall at-
tempt then, Sir, this iniaortarit question, namely, the
present state of The Finanee of this
_country, precisely
upon the same princiVe which an individual would
apply ,to a • view of his own concerns, supposing lic
found it necessary for any purpose, to' enter into
.such a
consideration. I shall as far as possible divest my state-
ment of every thing that is calculated to obscure it,
and make it inteliigible even to' those the least.
versed in finance; and d presume, if an individual were
about to look into his affairs, to, look into what were'
-his expenditure and income, he would act on these princi-
ples He would first attempt to ascertain the incurnbrances
under which he lay,. and, to which' lie was indisputa-
bly 'liable ;—secondly, what had been- the amount
of- his net 'income for some years ;—and thirdly,
what were the prospects he' had, either as to the
amount of his future expenditure or his income.—
Sir, in pursuing this course, then--riot going back, to any
distant period, for I do profess to go back, to deliver any
profound view with respect to the Finance, I am n:erely
ping to give to the House' a general view of this country's
Finance. Then the first, question, according to the
course I have prescribed to myself, is what is the
present amount of those engagements
.to the fulfil.
went of-which we arc bound by every obligation o
national.faith.? Whatever be the . financial state of thi,
country, I believe there, will be a universal feeling of
this House,, and of this country, that the national faith
that has been pledged to the aatiblic creditor, must be placed
as an item of expense in 'the account. I think it
quite sufficient for my purpose; though I can go much
further' back, if any geptleman require it, .in examining
into the present state of finance, to, take three periods--
1815 s 1822, and 1827. The state of the unredeemed debt of
this country, January 5, 1816—or I would rather speak of
the year to the conclusion of which the calculation is made,
in order to simplify the statement—in 1815 then, that
which may be considered the first year, the total return of
the debt -unredeemed was 816,310,600/. In the year
1822, the total amount unredeemed was. seven hundred and
ninety six millions five hundred and thirty thousand ; and
in the last year the amount of the debt unredeemed was,
796,530,0001. I shorild observe, that I deeM it unne-
cessary to mention the hundreds. This last item is strictly,
I believe, 3 0r.409/. more, but I apprehend it is sufficient
if I state it thus in round numbers, and indeed 1 fear
that the debt is altogether so large, that a few hundreds
are but- of • little consequence in the statement. The
next matter to be considered is, the amount of Charge.
The annual charge to which this country was exposed,
in consequence of that debt—the, unredeemed funded
debt,-was of course the interest payable to the public,
and the annual interest on account of the funded debt in
1815 was 28,278,000/. ; in 1822, it was 26,419,0001. ;
and is 1827, it was 25,500,0001. Of course that statement
alone does not give a fair view of the amount of the public
incumbrances: -In the first place there are the annuities
payable, terminable, no doubt, but at a period on which:
we cannot calculate. I propose, then, next to tionsider
what was the total amount imposed on this country in
consequence of the unredeemed debt and the annuities. The
charge on account of the annual interest on annuities and
the ftinded debt, was M. 1815, 30,483,000/. ; in 1822, it
was' 28,596,0001., and in 1827 it was 28,381,0001.
I am not yet come,- Sir, to speak of the Exchequer Bills or
Unfunded Debt; butathe statement I have made will serve
to spew that the diminution of the piiblid expenditure, on
account of interest, to whiclathia country is liable, was last
year, as compared with the year 1815......£2,106,000
'But, as compared with 1822; 0n1y... 216,000
With respect to theftinded debt, the Exchequer and Irish
Treasury Bills, and debts outstanding in 1815,theY amounted
to 44,544,0001. ; in 1822, to 42,900,000/. ; and in the last
year to 34,770,0001. The total annual charge in the three
years of Whicllain speaking, namely, 1815, 1822, and 1827,
for funded' debt, for annuities, aad for. unfunded debt, was,
in the first year, thirtyathree millions six hundred and se-
venty-nine thousand ; in 1822, thirty millions and twenty
seven thousand, and in the last,
The unfunded debt of last year,compared with the year 1815
was decreased by 9,707,0001. ; so that the total decrease di
the debt under the late Act of Parliament is 48,608,0001.
that is the total balance. in our favour ; and the
total decrease charged to the country on account of ' the
funded and unfunded debt was 44 millions. It is not altoa
gether unimportant to see what proportion of the total
charge of the debt the annuities bear. In 1815 the charge
was 30,488,000/., of which sum 1,924,000/. was annuities.
In 1822, flay total charge was 28,596,0001.,- of which
1,892,000/a were annuities. , In .the last year, the total
charge was 28,881,000 Es of which the annuities were
2,602,000 E, theiefore the total charge of the debt
for the last year, was rather more, than the charge
feta' 1822. My object, as I said before, is to eluci-
date and explain the real Finances of the country, and-hav-
ing now stated the amount of our ineumbrances, let Us
look to the state of the revenue and the expenditure of the
country for some time past. I think, in order to be
able to form a calculation of the future revenue and expen-
diture af the country, it will be necessary to extend our
views beyond the last one or two years, and I therefore in-
tend to include Within the scope of my observations the state
of the expenditure of the country for the last five years.
As some difficulty meets us as to the meaning of the word
Expenditure, I wish to steer clear of the question of
the dead weight; and in order to disconnect that
matter from the view which I take of the expenditure, I
propose to present a review of our income and expenditure,
discarding any Charge or any credit relative to it—discard-
ing on the one hand, the 4,800,000/. of income, and on
the other hand discarding the ;2,800,0001. - paid upon ac-
count of that charge, as.my wish is to give a preciso'view of
the ordinary revenue and expenditure of the country, and
I therefore think that the view will be moreintelligible, by
discOnnecting the dead weight from the real income and
expenditure. I shall therefore go back for the Fist
five years, anti attempt accurately to give an explanatioh of
the amount of the expenditure on account of the interest of
the debt—the ordinary services---the Army and Navy--
the Miscellaneous, and so forth. In taking this expenditure,
including the charge of the funded debt, I find that in the
year 1823, the total expenditure of the great branches
excluding the advance of five millions paid under the Act
of Parliament to the Commissioners for the reduction
of the National Debt—excluding those, I find, that the
great branches-of the expenditure, exclusive of the Sinking
Fund; are as follows, for the last five years
1n.1823
. _1824
1825
. 1826
1627 , 49,719,000
Now, supposing that I, in the next place, deduct from
the . expenditure of each year the anioiit. of. the
fixed aum annually payable on account of the debt, and
separate the-net expenditure, exclusive of the charge for the
funded and unfunded debt, the Naval and Military pen-
sions, and the advances made by Government for
illiblie works, which advances must not be considered
permanent, we shall state the amount of theactual net ex-
pendituie (r those five years,-to he as followS •
. Actual expenditure for 1823—£18,4'77,000'
• 1824 20,461,000
a.,;aaa 3,glalv I,ll' wt.& 1825 20;000,000
bla 1826 21,500,000
. 1827 21,582,000.
I hope that iu the statement which 1 makel shall not be
considered as throwing-, any reflection upon anyforiner Go-
varimient, • tar any reflection which I 'stay cast upon a for-
naga,Government must fall as heavily upon myself as
iipan, auy one else ; but the course 'which I propose
tu: myself is to look retrospectively, and to present
to the. House a full and fair view of the real financial
affairs or country ; and taking the 'total amount
of these five years, to present at one view the *total
income find expenditure of these- five yeall, I find
that Ole total revenue, including all the sources of
revenue, and including therepayments of advances on ac-
count of public works, during thefive years-ending Jan. 5,
1828, to be 261,000,000/. The. House understands
what .1 mean. by repayment of the money advan-
ce( namely; the re-payment
of surW -advanced by Government to -carry on public
works in-England and Inland, upon the understanding
that the interest shOuld be regularly paid, and that some
repayment of the original advahees should be occasionally
made. the-total amount of the revenue, in-
cluding those repayments; to be for the last- five years,
261 millions. Having -made this statement, I shall now
proceed' to ktate the amount of the expenditure,- and it
will their be- seen what the , meal surplus aaailable for the
liquidation of -the national debt has. been 'for the last
five years. • The total amount of the expenditure,
excluding the Naval and Military Pensions, but including
the advances made by Governinent, for carrying on Public,

Works during the last five yea* is 249,000,0001., sr
that the total surplus of the revenue of the country for
the last five years, available to the liquidation of
the National Debt, is exactly twelve millions. Now;
Sir, I will state the income and expenditure, including tin
dead weight, as it adds to the Income on one side, and to
the Expenditure on the other, under the existing arrange-
ment, with respect to that item. The total then, inclusive
of every payment for the last five years, will be—
Income £284,149,000
' Expenditure 263,095,000
Making a total surplus, of twenty-one millions in roun(
numbers, according to this view of the subject. The next
point to which I think it necessary to draw the attention o
the House, is the amount paid by the Commissioners of de.
Sinking Fund, as' directed to be annually appropriated by
Act of . Parliament for the last five years. The total of
the 4 payments is-29.414,000/., exhibiting an execs°
over the surplus income, which amounts, as I have
Shown, to 21,051,000/. of-8,360,000/. The differ-
ence has been made up partly by money raised for that
purpose, and partly by reduction, of the balances in
the Exchequer on the last day of one year compared with
tlio,e balances on the last day of another. Supposing, for
instance, the amount of balances to have been five millions
in the year 1823, and the amount now to be only two mil-
lions, the House will easily see that a larger sum by three
millions than the actual surplus of the income over expen-
diture may have, during the intervening period applied to
the reduction of the debt. lam not aware, Sir, that I
have omitted any point necessary to render to the House.a
clear, unembarrassed, and perfectly true account of the
Income and Expenditure of the last five years, and of the
incumbrances for which we have had to provide. It would
be difficult for me to attempt an estimate of the future pro-,
bable Revenue of the country. This is a task which mon!
probable devolves on my Right Hon. Friend (the' Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer), at a more advanced period of the
Session, and it would be presumption in me to anticipate,
with the feeble means which I have for coming to a judg-
ment, the statement which we may expect from him. For
the purpose, however, of assisting to a correct view of our
future prospects in that respect, it may not he aniisa to re-
fer to the ordinary expenditure and income of the last two
years., The total ordinary revenue
For the Year 1826, was .....£49,625;000
For 1827 49,581,000 .
This is exclusive -of Naval and Military Pensions,
Casual Revenue, and the Repayment in Advance on Pub-
lic Works. The income of the year 1827
being therefore - £49,581,000
Expenditure . . 49,487,000
The Excess of Income was
The Expenditure of the two years was—
For
1826 49,513,000
• 1827
I am aware; Sir, that some expectation is entertained
that I shall say something about the Estimates of the present
year ; -and, although they are not all made up in a form fit
to present to the House, I shall not hesitate to give a gene-
ral, and, I believe, an accurate notion of their amount.—
(Hear, hear.) . I protest, however, against being bound by
any inaccuracy that may subsequently appear to attach to
this statement. It is my anxious wish to give the Nouse
every possible information upon every branch of the subject
and it is-that alone which induces nit to make this piema
ture disclosure of the probable amount of the Estimates a
the present year.—(Cheers.) The Estimates for the pre.
sent year will, I believe, be--
For the' Army 4:6,586,008
Army Extraordinaries, including under that
head, 450,0001. advanced for the present
year, and 360,000/. of debt belonging -
to the last year 0,810,000
Militia 0,29:2,000
• .„
Corninissariat , 0,372,000
Navy
Ordnance
Miscellaneous
Now, Sir, I hope I shall not he charged with couceal-
ment or intentional nibs-statement should any of the sums
come out different from what I have now stated. My sole
object is to assist in devising the best means for our future
guidance, and it; in the execution of that object, I should
commit
.any immaterial error—l am sure there will be
none material—l hope no one will attribute to me an in-
tention of misleading the House.—(Hear, hear.) The total
'of these Estimates is-17.577,0001. I have referred to
the Estimate made by 'the Finance Conimittee of 1817, as
adequate for the same services prospectively, and I find that
their -Estimates for the services I have enumerated was__
17,350,0001. Deducting this sum of seventeen
'millions, three huridreit and fifty thousand pounds, from
the former sun] of seventeen millions, live hundred
and seventy-seven thousand pounds, there remains
as. the excess of the estimate for the present year, over the
estimate of the Finance Committee of 1817, 227,000/._
(Cheers.)—The total amount of Estimates voted for the
last year was 18,745,0001. ; so that the Estimates for the
present year are less than those for the part year by
I,l6B,ooo4—(Cheers.)—The Hon. Member for Montrose
seems to doubt the accuraty of iny'statenient. lam per-
fectly willing to. be corrected if I am in error, but I
mike the best calculation I coo cur the information of the
House—(hear, hear, hear)—having no other object than
that which is common betwixt the Hon. Member and tny-
self, to make a full and explicit disclosure of the state of
our finances.—(Cheers.)--I believe it will be found that
these Estimates are--
.Less than those of 1825 £6,140
Than those of 1826 365,843
And than those of 1827 . 1,168,260 •
(Great cheering.) In looking forward to the probable de-
mands that will be made on this country, I think, Sir, we
should not omit to take into consideration the effect that
will he produced by the termination of the contract with
the Bank of England, with reference to the naval and
military pensions. If it should not be deemed advisable
to renew that contract—if it be thought better to return to
the old system, and meet the charge of our pensions—it is
clear that the re suit will be an addition to the present ex-
penditure of the, country. The contract with the Bank
will, I believe, expire in July of the present year. The
effect of the termination of the contract will be a diminu-
tion of income available for the general services of the year
1828, as compared with the amount received from the
Trustees of the Bank, for the year 1827, 913,240/. ; and
for the general services of the year 1829, as compared
with 1827,- of 1,940,740/. It does not appear to me ne-
cessary further to trespass on the patience of the House,
by presenting them with any further details, to enable
them to form a just opinion, as to the. real state of the
country. It is not my intention to enter into any defence
of the contract to which I have just alluded, (it would be
quite beside my purpose to do eo,) and I have merely intro-
duced it . to assist in forming an hypotheiis of our
probable future
.income. Fig the ume purpose only
have I referred to the estimates. They were pre-
pared 'however by a Government with which I was not
connected, brit I have a strong conviction on my mind that
they were prepared-with great care, earnestly and success-
fully to'. terry into effect every possible retrenchment.—
(Hear, hear.)—But,,On the. subject of these estimates, I
will.tsay that I ain satisfied there exists in the New Mem-
bers of the present Ciovernineot, as well as in those who
belonged to the last Administration, a sincere desire to see
economy in the public expenditure carried to its utmost
length. And if, through the recommendation of the
Finance. Cpronittee, it 'should-. appear prhctierible to make
some reduction in the expenditure of the next half-year,
that I am confident will be cheerfully effected.—(Cheers.)
—With respect to the Army Estimates, it has been pro-
posed that a further reduction should_ be made in our
Military Force. To effect this, there are twosapodes—
the one by disbanding the regiments, and the other by
reducing the -number of men. In the former case there
would be 'a claim on the part of those reduced, to
sinus. By reducing the number of men. merely, no e
pense was -entailed- on . the country. The reduction of,
the men also "could -be immediately effected, and certainly ii
our military force will bear reduction at all, that is the way
least open •to ohjeCtioo; I have asked: my
-Noble Friend
(Earl Dudley)
,if it he possible to Make a greater reduction
than has yet been-made in that branch of ourexpenditore
which rkers to foreign residents, especially with reference
to the Ministerial, and also the Consular Establishments of
"South Arnerica.--(Hear, -hear.) There is another sub-.
ject which will very naturally come under the consideras
tion of the Finande Committee—l allude to
.the Colonial
toriety, that the military thi es,a--;hments of many of ours-
her, hear.) Sir, it is matter of no-
establishments .expenditure.--(near,
Colonies, Pth
Crown."=-4 do , not of course allude to soch as have Legis-
latures of own—amount those iMmediately:dependent .on the
ex-
penditure. The Revenue which the Colonies to which I
-
-allude yield, is very trifling—the total amount of it I believe
ictllavrrilY—ameunt- to a conSiderable annual
appear upon consideration to be inconsistent with perfect
.
jsucastriceeely to enfokexited,Hts one million per annum, and it may not
oat Colonists so far meet the expenses in-:
curred for their, internal protection, as to lessen somewhat:
the burdens which .they impose on the Mother country.-... 1
in of these matters I wish it, Sir, to be understood,
that my mind is not under the ,guidance of any peculiar
doctrines of political economy. My single view is to keep:
the expenditure and the income of the country as much as
possible on a par with each otber.—(Hear.) I will now I
address myself to the immediate question of the appoint-
ment of the Committee. I have already been challenged
to give a definition of the powers of the. Committee. II
shall first make a single observation respecting its cm-

position. Where them are so many who deem themselves
qualified, and who are so esteemed by others, selection br-
comes a very difficult task: But it must be' done; and, in
attempting to execute it to the best of my ability, I have
endeavoured to include as large a portion of the experience
of the House, and of those Hon. Members who have !mai'.
cularly devoted their attention to these subjects, as was con-
sistent with the limited numbers of the Committee, - With
respect to the powers of the Committee, I am not prepared
to say what- ought to be their exact limits. 1 think
toy Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Huskitsson) was most
leaterially misunderstood, when he was stated to have de-
clared that the establishments of the country were such as
Government only. was responsible for, 'and that the Cern-
mittee would have no right of enquiring into them. It is
impossible for any man of good,senseto think of pteseribin,s
the real limits of such an enquiry. . On -the one hand, it i.
clear that the Executive Government;: if it is to be competent
to the discharge of its duties, must be accepted as reborn,-
sible, to a certain extent, for the establishment of the
country. On the- other hand, to exclude the Cointilittee
from all views of those establishments %voidd be- equally a,
absurd as to deny the lesponsihility of Government: Most
of the circumstances connected with those establishinent
cannot be excluded from a body so appointed. But at the
same time it is obvious, that Governtnent may be in pos-
se;sion of many elements material to the formation of an
accurate judgment, which they cannot disclose. Thus,
for instance, , with respect to the treaty which was last
night referred to in our discussions, which treaty pro.
vided for the employment of a naval force, how was it
possible for- the Executive, which could only know
of the secret article appended to the Treaty, to int:
part to .the Committee that material element to its
judgnaent—and how could such a Committee have pro-
ceeded to deliberation without the knowledge of such a cir-
cumstance, excepting by confidence in the Executive ? All
that I can say, Sir, is, that to enable the Committee to
take an accurate and comprehensive view, every possible as-
sistance will be given ; I can say no. more than this. It
was the rule on which the Committee acted in 1817, and
no other rule can be acted on now. There is one: point,
Sir, to which,,-;befores. j conclude. I am anxious to address
myself; and upon which I have always had a very strong
feeling. I had thought, indeed, of introducing word,
into my motion expressive of that feeling. Sir, mkt to
the advantage and necessity of a simplification of the pub-
lic accounts.—(Cheering,-)_I have no doubt that-, - with -
oat any express words, the Committee will feel thethselves
warranted in taking that important .subjeet into their 'sc.:
rious consideration. No man is more desirous than I 'am"
to see the public accounts presented in the simplest pri-iSible
forin.--(Hear, hear.).—And 1 can only-say, that if Hive
COmmittee should be able to recommend any plan for Chic
attainment of this object, they will secure-for the countre
a great public advantage. I see no reason, Sir, 'Why w
should not follow the example set us in this respect by
France and the United States of. America. I am'quite cer-
tain that we shall do well to profit by such an example, and
I can see no. one single disadvantage attending it.—
I thank the House for the indulgence which has been ex-
tended to me in the statement of details which it \your('
have been difficult to have relieved from the dryness which
notoriously attaches to such subjects. I trust I have said
enough to show in what spirit this Committee has been
and to convince the House that it proceeds, -on
the Part. of his Majesty's Government, from a sincere de-
sire to meet fairly and fully Parliament and the country,_
upon a subject of such vital importance. I know that,
from a person in my situation, professions of economy arc
suspected as things of course, and as Intended to mislead:
But I state earnestly and confidently to the House, that
-there is, en the part of- the present Administration, in
taking the affairs of this country under :its guidance;
resolute determination to effect all possible economy in
the publicexpenditure.—(Cheers.) An Hon. Gentleman,
the other night, declared it as- Ilia opinion,- that, what-
eVer the disposition of Government, that was still over-
ruled lay an external influence, which rendered it im-
perative- to maintain large establishments to satiate that
influence. To this, Sir, speaking from experience in the
business of Government, I give an unqualified denial. I
shall not new go back to .the increase which may have
taken place in the different departments from -a particular
period, upon which haveaddressed myself to the-House, -
but must say, that I cannot agree with the Hon. Member
in the 'causes to which he refers this increase. I believe
that the increase of which he coMplains has been partly,
and indeed principally, owing to the views entertained Ity
each particular department with respect to its own ser-
vice, without, perhaps, paying very particular regard to
the general: expences of all ; and, at any rate, I en-
tirely differ from the Honourable Gentleman, because
I ant convinced that the expences thus incurred, hive
been entered into from the laudable view of each head
-of a department, wishing to have the establishment sol-
der his controul in the best possible state, and moat cer-
tainly, from other and better motives than those assigned by
the Hon. Gentlenian.—(Heat, hear.)—ln paying this, 1
speak from experience, as in the department which I
have had under my own controul, I must confess I , always
entertained a wish to have all the establishments connected,
with it in the best possible state, without considering what
the effect might he upon the general, establishments of the
country.- What I now wish:is, that there shoold be one-
general and effectual controul over all the establishments of
the country ; and I believe that the Noble Individual at
present at. the head of the highest department in the
country, has both the disposition and the power to exercii4
a greater and more efficient controul orer all the subOrdi--
nate establishments, than any other person, in'the country.
—(Hear, hear.)—l wish to avoid introducing -any
thing like a political and party feeling into the consideration"
of a matter of this importance. I only mention the name of
that Noble Person upon this occasion, because I consider him
more capable than any other individual of- efficiently execut-
ing that necessary controul so indispensable to the well .being'
of the country. I say this, because, in the various civil
Offices he has filled, there can be no one who has not seen,
both-in the Ordnance and other departments heretofore
under his direction, the -most anxious desire on his part to
introduce every retrenchment and every degree of economy
compatible with the interests of the country. lam sure.,
that the Noble individual sees no cause to. despond, al-
though' he has the desire to look fairly into the financial
state of the country, and lax the, warmest wish that every
possible reduction should he made. I know that these are
his wishes, but only, under the strict and imperative
obligatlen of maintaining to the letter, and to 'its
utmost point, the national faith with the public creditor,
which he is fully assured means are to -be found -for in
the resources of the country, and upon which account
he feels that there is not the slightest cause for the leaSt
despOndency.—s(Hear.) Amid I say this because I believe
so too, and am far from believing otherwise, that; on' the
contrary, I come 'forward' to make this unreserved declara-
tion of the fact, without any apprehension of the possibility
of contradiction. I believe if it were necessary at this mo-
ment to appeal to the resources,. and reuse the dormant
energies of the country, in that way in which they can
always be roused, either to vindicate the national honour or
to maintain her essential interest, that there never was a
time when she could putforth mightier exertions, founded un
the unimpaired resources of her financial interests, and the
matchless energy for 'which these countries have ever been
distinguished. , I now beg to move--•
-
"That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into
the stateOlthe income and expenditure of the United -King-
dom, and to consider and report what further legulations and
checks should.,,in their opinion, be adopted for establishing-
an effectual controul over all the charges incurred, and ever
the receipt, custody, and.application of the public money;
and also to consideravhat further tneans can be taken to
reduce any part of the- public expenditure Without' detri-
ment to the public service."
On the question being put from the Chair, -
Mr.. HUME,did not rise for the purpose of offering any
opposition to the formation of a Committee, but he wished
to put it to- the Right Honourable Gentleman, whether lie
could be able to carry the objects he proposed into effect by
the' aid of one Committee ? -He was anxious also to learn
from the Right Hon. Gentlemen whether it was his inten-
tion
Crownthat
lands, Committee
m thietthered itud inquire'
alry ir into the state of
revenue,
and othet matters
;upon -which inquiry had been -often promised, but never
entered into ? lie was desirous at the outset to make this
inquiry, for, arnearly as he-could gather the words of the
present tnotion,were.the same as those in the appeintment
of the.SelegA Committee'in 11317, an,l yet it appeared that
that Committee had inquired into very few of the objects
for, which- they had been appointed. 'lt also appeared that
none of: the -Committees' appointed had gone into all the
subjects which 'it was said would be submitted to
them, though some of them had sat - for several years,
and presented -10. or ,12 reports. It' the proposed Com-
m; .ttee were to be so long occupied, was it, he would ask,
to have these several -matters submitted to its- considera-
tion ? Did the Right Hon, Gemini= intend to provide
for the deficit of two he intend to make ar-
rangements respecting the Sinking
Fund,, or to provide for
the deficiency which would take place. when the Bank
should cease to make any payments on the naval and Innis
tary half-pay and pensions? -Were these things to be
brought before the House separately, or were they to wait
until they had been submitted to the consideration of the
.Committee of- Finance? If these and the other matters
which in his opinion should be referred to the inquiry of
Committee, -shoUld,be referred to this Committee, he must
say that it would be impossible it could do them justice:—
He had taken the trouble to prepare a statement of the dif

ferent branches connected with the public revenue ae?,.d;
penditure of. the country, anti he must say, that %
Committee were to direct its attention to'all, it wiit";,.
impossible it could terminate its labours in eves
short a time 'as two or three years. What he therei.
would 'sUggest to the Right Honourable Gentleman ""d
be, the appointment of ten or eleven Finance Cowell;
—(Loud langhter.)—He was quite aware that this
quite a novel thireato propose, and he was preparealn
pest objections, there were so few in the House disro..
'take any trouble or labour on themselves.. But bead
cootend that if the Right Honourable Gentleman 0/7
bus in proposing' a consideration of all the points to 01...:
he referred, it would be quite impossible. that they 7
be gone into- by ope Committee consisting of twenty of 61
thirty Ilembers. It would be impossible that, with
,';
chance of effect m this or thenext Session, they 000,
into an inquiry or make any report, not merely
reed
one, but twenty departments . which ought to be subo",..,'
to their consideration. He would show that-it..3%W i
so easy a matter to conduct those ititmiriei by fine CA.
Mittee, as some gentlemen seemed to think. Let
' House look at the last Committee appointed,h_
that e i':
at which Was called Sir Charles Long's Ciirom
This was occupied' fur,five years with the customsexeise, "and' with no other. department of :the. publie
01
come or expenditure. The Finance Committee
thirteen or fourteen reports, and yet not one pf them ref
to the many departments into which lie Contended io4
ought to be made ; be meant the Crown lands, the b
(Entry revenues, the civil list, the expenses of our
Coolta, and the Colonies. He was glad to learn that tr
was an intention of making some inquiry respecting tbli
but he would ask if any inquiry could be effectual, if
rested to so inany.objeets by the labours of only one 01)
inittee ? To consider these important matters with eo„`
he repeated .that the labours of one Committee could tio).
finished in less than two or three years. If the House
in earnest in the disposition to inquire, they ought to di
the labour between them by the appointment of many
mittees, which, by sitting from day to Jay, might be
aided, by the end of the Session, 'to present reports res
.i
.ing the several 'departments connected with the revey,
.and expenditure of the country. ;By that tote.'
' they might be enabled to point out
_many l'euu't
Lions which it would be ' impossible• otherwise
make. If this course were not adopted, it would be fill;
that the Finance Committee now proposed would give, ,
name, but feW if any, of the real advantages of inero"
Or he productive of any practical good. -.lf he pointed,o
the items of accounts which ought to become the subjee
'inquiry, it would appear that each of the eleven I,mor
inittees would have quite enough to. do for. the next ttc,%g
three months. The Committees which he should soff-
should be small in number—not exceeding seven Mearr.,
for each Committee, of whom five should be a quorum Y 1
All who were acquainted with the mode of doing butinesj
in Select Committees, would agree with hiM ' that it '`3,
done.in a more regular, orderly, and efficient manner 11 i.
small Committee than by one very numerous. The ref
ti
why few of the suggestions made by several of dd
Select Committees were not adopted, was, that the Ce'g;
inittee being occupie,l with more business than oo .
to he submitted to it at once, protracted their swirl
'mid long before they made their report, the interest of t i
subject passed over and was 'forgotten. Scarcely any
the suggestions of the several committees of finance, 01
that on customs and excise, bad been adopted. Now
appeared that we bad gone en increasing our debt sin
1816, for lie should be prepared, on another occasion, ,
prove that the Right Hon. Gentleman was mistaken
asserting that there bad been a decrease of upwards
4,000,000/. in the charge of funded: aid unfunded del
since that period. tle would show thie mistake from t
Treasury accounts, and he was surprised that the err
should not have been pointed out by those by whom the°
accounts were made up.. Ile repeated, we were going e°
increasing our debt at a period when we ought to he redid
ing it annually. We were bound, then, by the circuit/
stances of the country to reduce our expenditure, not °,
17,000,000/. or 16,000,0001., but to reduce it to thf
scale which would leave us such a surplus as would be efir
cient for the gradual_ reduction of our debt. If the Hod
did 'net adopt this course, they could not be said to kn°l
what they were about. The, Right Hon. Gentleman he
'talked of the resources of the country, and said there 10
no ' dround for despair. He :(Mr, Hume), did not de
pair t.vbe ' called for. economy. He admitted the exteet
oT our resources, but he hoped they would not be used 0
that extent until every means of economical reduction
• la
been tried for the relief of the country. The Right Hoe:
' Gentleman Said, that those resources were all unimpaired'
That lie (Mr. Hume) doubted, for he feared it would 0
found, the returns from every species of our property eiO'
barked in trade were not such as could be '.desired, er st
they had been some time back. He would say, in Ot
Words of Lord. •'Castlereagh,in moving the appointment 0t
the-Finance' Committee of 1817,,that a country must It
mad'whicb,it,..a state of peace, should go on from year v.'
year consuming its income ; that it was the duty of the Le'
gi•lature to look forward in time of peace to a possible
state of war, and so to reduce the expenditure as t"
leave a considerable surplus for the reduction of the
public debt. Now this important duty which had beet,
thus' pointed out by his Lordship, it. would be impos-
sible to perfortur_as,fiir as..it. depended on au- inquirl
into the several ;branches of our .income and expendi'
tire, by the aid of one Committee. He could assure the
Right Hon.' Gentlemau, that if he ,and the Noble Duke,
to whom he had alluded, meant to have such, att inquirl
as would be followed up by. practical_ reductions in the
present session, (and liehiaoacvn-tuassotcfonomoomtsntemlispose to deny their good
intentiona,), they-would find it in-possible to carry their in-
tentions into effect,by any other mode than that of several
stnall -Committees of-Inquiry, consisting of five or seven
members, who should meet, from day to day. If these
should be appointed, be had no doubt that, in the course
of three months, they_ would be able to extend their in-
quiries to, and to report,:the several departments which he
should point out. To one of those Committees he would
Which it ling ht be necessary to make in some of the
be
iceoiut duties,effish;ai aencind;tnttsito'ihed.eceisir.mua consideration
employ that
would be andadi ttutteteeyenxdici.oeidea‘t'vnhiorttetihhieeerochrvaonf °uguled
theneipclooyurnineruyt.
inAinnoqtuhierringinto Committeethe
departments .of stamps, taxes, and hackney-coackes.--e
sisl7:ucda.iteed 'it
(Loud laughter.)—Gentlemen were, perhaps, not' aware
seepvaerrtamlenittemusn;dearnd.thaAhtis-hezpl„aft,
department,
which
‘vou conside-
rablel d advantage 6 :d
which avas kept up at an expense ,of some 1%000/.
or -1.5,8007. a year, might with advantage be trans-
,t,,liiaitchthwe6rere
, ferred 'to the Board of Stamps and Taxes. He stated
thii, bbcanse
ahe. knew that a Board of Stamps was kept oneekreral 'years Avitli seven Commissioners, and during that
' time three Commissioners were never in attendance at once.
`Now he' would pledge himself to the House,: that if a
CornMittee were appointed to consider of ,and inquire into
the Boards of Stamps, and Taxes, and that other. Board
which he must not mention lest he should ' excite the
laughter of the Muse, reductions might be made which .
would be most advantageous to the country. To 'another
Cottimittee, he would submit an inquiry into a department '
who, was, perhaps,. the best conducted of any under the
GOVernment, but in which there remained much to be
done, if they looked to what took place respecting it in Ire-
land: ' Ile would have a Committee appointed to' examine
into the Post-office department of England,_S,ceiland, and
Ireland; and he had no doubt that the country would, de-
ride. - -
great benefit from the result of that inquiry. He was
ready to 'admit the great activity_ and talent of the gen-
tleman who held the office of Secretary in that office—
(Hear, hear)—but it-, was impossible that one indivi-
dual could give all the attention which - was required
in the three departments of the Post-office (as he un-
derstood it was intended to unite them) of England,
Ireland, and: 'SCotiand.. An - investigation, into the
improveMents which might be made in that department
would gite a .Committee ample employment . tot' - three
months. The next subject of inquiry which he would refer
to another committee would be, the nature. arid:Manage-
ment of the land revenue. In a report made: on this:Stib-
ject in the year 177.7, it appeared that it was veryprodac-
tive, but since then no sufficient inquiry was rude-jaw it,
and much ofits produce was .squandered away
.in
.useless
establishniezits. The hereditary revenue of the Crown
would of itself 'give ample employment to the investigation
era select committee for six Months. Another subject of
m•op' lance,' which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ptel) •
-
'alluded to, was one than which he did, not know any which
better deserved the consideration of a' separate committee :
he meant the mode in'which the.public accounts were kept
in England and Scotland. Helves sure it would scarcely '
be believed; that in the year 1828, the public accounts in England, the land of accounts and calculations, were kept I
in a manner similar to that of the savages in the Sandwich
Islands.—(Lout laughter.) They all recollected the man..
net in which Robinson . Crusoe.--(eontinued. laughter)-..
kept his account of the passin_
g days, by cutting notches
on a piece of 'wood,. which was called a tally. Would
it be believed, that
.in the Exchequer; of . England at
the present day, the same mode of notching, a piece el
wood, called a tally, was observed to mark the receipt
of the public, money ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) One 1440 ..
notch was put for 100/., and another ter 1,000/., and so
on. -Was• that; he asked, a'fitisode in which to keep, the
public accounts of this country? Ea might4lBo mention
that some of the money accounts were kept in Win.... -
(Hear, hear.) He believed that if a receiver of Lazio intisi