The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-30 00:00:00

STATE OAF IRELAND.

The... Marquis of CLANiVICARDE rose, y nrsuant to
/loticit, -to present a petition respecting the sta to of Ire-
land. 'This petition was signed by many Peei is, and by
lii tnajorZty of the represontativeg of Ireland in phe other

House of Parliament. He should move that the peti-
tion should be read at length ; and he trusted that the
moderate and sensible prayer with which it included,
would receive the most serious attention of that House
and of the Government. None of the promised mea-
sures of the Government were yet before their Lord-
ships'; and, therefore, it *ould be folly to attempt to
form opinions upon what they would be ; but, he sin-
cerely trusted they would be characterised by a spirit of
conciliation that would be acceptable not only to Ireland
but to the whole United Kingdom,
The petition was then read at length, and was ordered
to lie upon the table.
IRELAND---THE JURY SYSTEM.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, he rose ac-
cording to notice to move for the production of any in-
structions that might have been given to any of the
Crown solicitors in Ireland as to the mode of impanelling
juries in Ireland. He was satisfied, having received
yesterday a notification from the Noble Lord opposite
(Wharncliffe) that there would be no objection to the
production of these returns, that it would be unjustifi-
able in him to make more than a very few observations
to their Lordships in reference to this subject. He
should, therefore, merely say what he considered
requisite to justify him in occupying the
attention of their Lordships. He need not say in that
House that every thing connected with the administra-
tion of, justice, but most of all with that great feature of
it which affected the constitution of juries, was one cal-
culated to excite the most anxious attention of the coun-
try. When a prisoner, or a culprit, heard the first
forms of the court by which he was to be tried—and
which were so important in their nature—when he was
asked, how he would be tried? and responded, by his
God and his country, he considered he had thrown his
liberty, perhaps his life, into the hands ofpersons with the
same feelings, sympathies, and habits as himself. Now,
what, for a long time, had been the practice in Ireland?
They had too often been in the habit of using the
powers and forms which were placed in the hands of the
Crown for a very different object, to the purpose of ex-
cluding a great majority of their countrymen from
taking their share in that branch of the administra-
tion of justice which it was their right to do.
The system adopted in these prosecutions had been de-
nounced by Chief Baron Joy, and some of the most
eminent men connected with the legal profession. From
equally high authority he could assert, that in all cases
when Roman Catholics had acted as jurors they had
discharged their duties with impartiality and fidelity.
Sir Michael O'Loghlin gave instructions that no dis-
tinction should be made in the appointment of juries ;
and he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) rejoiced that such
instructions had been issued, because he thought that
the powers of the Crown ought not to be exercised to
reject persons because of their religious opi-
nions. He was deeply impressed with the value
of trial by jury, and of its being essential to the fair ad-
ministration of the law, and of supporting that confi-
dence between man and man which was necessary to a
good state of society. He would again say that he be-
lieved it was not the intention of the Government to
bring the law into contempt, but he thought it was quite
as well to give to them an opportunity of expressly dis
claiming any participation in a course which was likely
to produce such a result. In submitting this motion to
the House, he was not actuated by any feelings with
respect to a particular trial ; but in the hope that some
responsible member of the Governmentwould give an as-
surance that no sanction would be given to such a course,
and that those who adopted it did so without their
consent. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving for
copies of instructions given to the Irish Law Officers of
the Crown relative to challenging juries.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE, who spoke in so low a tone
as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, read a circular
addressed by the Attorney-General for Ireland, which
was to the following effect:—" The Attorney-General
presents his compliments to the Crown Solicitor, and,
having read the instructions given by Mr. Brady, when
Attorney-General, with respect to setting aside jurors,
requests the Crown Solicitor to continue to act upon
those instructions." He (Lord Wharncliffe) thought
this was a sufficient proof that the Government had not
acted on any new principle with respect to striking off
jurors. With respect to the motion of the Noble Mar-
quis, there was no objection to produce the instructions,
or portions of them, relating to the particular subject to
which he had referred.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed himsi
satisfied with the offer of the Noble Lord.

Lord BROUGHAM thought his Noble Friend (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) had acted very fairly in the
manner in which he had brought forward his motion.
Lord CAMPBELL expressed a hope that the prin-
ciple which was applied to the striking off jurors in
Ireland, with respect to Crown cases, would also be ap-
plied to special jury cases.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Government officers
ould always endeavour to do so.
The motion was then agreed to.
GWALIOR.

The Marquis of NORMANBY wished to ask his No-
ble Friend, the President of the Board of Control, when
it was likely any further papers relative to Gwalior
would be produced.
The Earl of RIPON said he would endeavour to lay
the papers alluded to by the Noble Marquis on the table
of the House Wore Easter.

The Marquis of NORMANBY said he would abstain
from making any motion on the subject until the papers
were on the table.

- INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT.
On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE the In-
ternational Copyright Bill was read a second time.
Several other Bills were advanced a stage. Their
Lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, March 29.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock.

The Guilford Junction Railway Bill, and the Norwich
and Brandon Railway Bill, were read a third time and
passed.

Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Liverpool
against the Liverpool Docks Bill.
The Wells (Norfolk) Harbour and Quay Bill, and
the Wells (Norfolk) improvement Bill were read a se-
cond time.
ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAYS GRAVESEND
RAILWAY.

Mr. SHAW rose to call the attention of the House to
a petition which he had presented a few nights ago from
certain parties who had projected a railway, to be con-
structed upon the atmospheric principle. He called the
attention of the House to this subject upon public
grounds, in order that the atmospheric principle might
be fairly applied to railways in this country. It had al-
ready been tried in Dublin on a short railroad, but the
engineers who had been sent over to observe the work-
ing of the principle, amongst whom was Mr. Brunel,
were of opinion that the Dublin and Dalkey
Railway was too short to enable them fully
to judge of the merits of the principle
and they therefore recommended that the principle
should be tried on some railway
.in this country, and
upon that recommendation a project had been started
for constructing a railway to Gravesend upon the at-
mospheric principle. The parties had presented a peti-
tion to the House, praying to be allowed to bring in a
Bill ; but their petition prayed for a Bill to construct a
common railway. They afterwards, however, presented
another petition, praying to be allowed to 'con-
struct a railway on the new principle. This peti-
tion, however, was presented too late to be re-
ceived by the Standing Orders' Committee, and there-
fore the Company were prevented from bringing
in their Bill. Now, what he wished was, that these par •
ties should be allowed to present a petition to the Stand-
ing Orders' Committee, to grant them permission to
bring in their Bill this session, as it was highly im-
portant to the public that the new principle should be
fully tested. He was anxious to bring the question be-
fore the House, because twelve months' delay might be
of serious consequence to the projectors of the Gravesend
Railway. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by mov-
ing that the petitioners for the Gravesend, Rochester,
and Chatham Railway Bill have leave to proceed with the
Bill, and that the Standing Orders be suspended for
that purpose.
Mr. STRUTT said, that as Chairman of the Standing
Orders' Committee, it might, perhaps, be expected that
he should give some explanation of the reasons why he
should oppose the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He would not throw any difficulties in the way of the
railway, but the non-compliance with the Standing
Orders, which the Right Honourable Gentleman said
were mere matters of form, were, in his opinion,
very important. In few cases were they so
important—and ho believed they were over twenty in
number. There were two sections on the line, one for
the atmospheric system, the other for the ordinary mode,
and one or either of these plans must be adopted. But
though the Bill enabled them to adopt either, they gave
no notice at all with regard to one. It was necessary
that parties whose property was to be cut through should
get notice, in order that they might be able to
defend their interest. The Committee were of
opinion that the question was of that kind
in which they should follow the rules upon
which they ordinarily decided. There were two
schemes before them, and they would have neglected the
duty which they owed to the House if they had showed
any favour to one part of the scheme in preference to the
other. They were decidedly of opinion that this was a
case in which it would be impossible for them
to allow the proceedings to go on. The House
would also bear in mind that the Gravesend line was
a competing one, and that there was another competing
line before them at the same time. They would, there-
fore, be guilty of great negligence if they dealt with one
line in a manner different from that in which they dealt
with the other.—(Hear, hear.) The question, therefore,
was not merely whether they would allow one particular
scheme to be carried out in opposition to the Standing
Orders, but whether they should allow to one com-
peting line what they did not allow to another.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it was a most im-
portant invention—indeed it was of national importance,
and that it was necessary that it should be tried during
the present year, as there was no other mode of making
the trial except through this Bill. Those were material
allegations, and he thought they should receive some
better proof of them than that of their being merely
alleged in a petition. The Right Hon. Gentleman
wished the subject referred to:the Standing Orders' Com-
mittee. In his (Mr. Strutt's) opinion that was not the
tribunal before which such a question could or ought to
be received. He would, therefore, suggest to him that it
ought not to be referred to the Standing Orders' Committee.
If the House chose to appoint a Select Committee to in-
quire into the merits of this atmospheric railway, and
if the Committee were of opinion that the national ad-
vantages to be derived from it were so important, and
that the urgency of the case was so great, that the in-
terests of the competing railways ought to be disregarded,
it would not be for him to oppose it ; but all he would
suggest, then, was, that the Standing Orders' Committee
could not act upon principles different from that on
which they usually acted. If it were referred back to
them, he did not see how they could come to a different
decision from that to which they had already come. lie

must, therefore, give his most decided opposition to the
motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. SHAW said it was not his intention to divide the
House upon the motion, but if the House approved of it,
he would move, in pursuance of the suggestion of the
Hon. Gentleman, that the subject be referred back to
the Standing Orders' Committee. He begged to say he
did not intend that the Committee should decide on ap-
plying the atmospheric principle, but upon trying it.
Mr. STRUTT said he made no suggestion about re-
ferring the matter back to the Standing Orders' Com-
mittee. On the contrary, he said that if it were referred
back to the Standing Orders' Committee, be did not see
how they could come to any other decision than that
which they had already arrived at.
Mr. GLADSTONE must warn the House against
permitting parties to invalidate the Standing Orders of
the House merely on the ground of scientific experi-
ments or improvements. He wished every encourage-
ment to be given to inventions and improvements, but
they ought to be careful in putting aside any of those
rules and regulations by which their proceedings were
governed. He was by no means adverse to the propo-
sition of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shaw) to in •
quire whether the experiments made at the particular
place alluded to were successful ; but the House must
recollect that there would be no want of applications to
them if they showed themselves too easily disposed to
constitute a tribunal for the consideration of scientific
experiments.
Mr. HUME said it was only yesterday he had met
with one of the most scientific men of the day, who bad
gone to Dublin with a decided feeling of disapprobation
of the atmospheric system, and had returned highly de-
lighted with it. In this gentleman's opinion the experi-
ment now in progress near Dublin would lead to one of
the greatest improvements of the day. He hoped the
House would grant a Select Committee, in order to give
to the country the best information that could be gained on
so important a subject from the opinions of men com-
petent, by their scientific attainments and practical ex-
perience, to arrive at sound conclusions upon the subject.
Lord HOWICK said he understood the Right Hon.
Gentleman to wish for the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee, to ascertain whether or not it was possible to try
the atmospheric principle on a larger scale during the
present year. He entirely concurred with the Hon.
Member for Dundee as to the desirableness of that ob-
ject. This was not one of those ordinary projects to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of
the Board of Trade, had referred. It was a scheme
which bad been tried to a certain extent, and which,
in the opinion of the most scientific men, had, so far, been
eminently successful; but before a judgment could be
formed, it was absolutely indispensable that the experi-
ment should be tried on a more extended scale. With
regard to the question immediately before the House;
he quite admitted that the objection, founded on the
Standing Orders, was altogether insuperable ; but he
hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would endeavour to
provide facilities for trying this plan.
Mr. GLADSTONE said that, of all persons, he should
be the last to offer any obstruction to the fair trial of
the experiment. The Inspector-General of Railways
had paid the greatest attention to the subject.—(Hear,)
Sir R. INGLIS begged to remind the House that they
were not trying to benefit the atmospheric plan by con-
sidering whether a certain Bill should or should not be
brought before the House in compliance with the Stand-
ing Orders, the Committee of which was composed of
Members on both sides of the House. He thought the
experiment ought not to be made at the expense of
parties who were bringing forward the Bill.
Mr. ESTCOURT said it was a matter of considerable
importance, not only that this experiment should be
tested, but that it should be tested at as early an oppor-
tunity as possible, inasmuch as the construction of
many railways might depend in a great measure on the
results of that experiment.
Mr. SHAW said that he did not want to re-
verse the order of the Standing Orders' Committee ; but
he thought it might be left open to the applicants for
the Bill to petition for a new Bill, and to lay before the
House the grounds on which they rested their proposi-
tion. Such an arrangement would not bind the Standing
Orders' Committee.
The motion was then withdrawn without further dis-
cussion.

BRANDES BURTON INCLOSURE.
The Brandes Burton Inclosure Bill was read a
third time...
MIDDLE LEVEL DRAINAGE BILL.
The Middle Level Drainage Bill was read a second
time.