The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-14 00:00:00

M, FIT 13 It UAII Y 14

•
t n!ed. The, ihm. and Gallant Gentleman related the ex-
perience 11e had had since 18001 ddein to 1830, and he con-
demned every class of vessels but the Ito ktiii-ship's vein
utterly useless. The 74 and the 64-gun ships he prenotinct" .
were useless; the 36 and 28-gun frigates were little better. The
18-gun brigs and 16-gun sloops were defective, and, in fact,
he condemned thtnl all dotn to the ten-gun sloops. But the
Whole atid Sole objCct of the Attack was Sir William Symonds,
and of course the eight or nine classes of vesseM built by that
gentleman were all :defective. One Hon. Gentleman, host•
ever, admitted that the Vernon answered perfectly well, and
the twenty-six-gun ships and sixteen-gun brigs were ex-
ceedingly beautiful. All the ships which had been built on
Sir William Symonds' principle, since 1835, had been uni-
versally approved by the officers of the navy. The Hon. and
Gallant Officer (Sir C. Napier) had himself admitted that
there was a considerable difference between the bow of Sir
William Symonds' last ship and that of his first. Why, this
at least proved that he was ready to adopt any improvements
which were calculated to benefit the service.—( Hear.) With
regard to the Queen, the Hon. and Gallant Officer said
that six Queens were laid down by order of the late Board o
Admiralty. He did not think that statement was quite borne
out. This vessel was launched in 1839 ; and for the first
three years all the reports with regard to her were extremely
favourable. The Hon. and Gallant Officer had made many
assertions on the subject; whether he was warranted er not
in his assertions, he could not say; but the official documents
were so much in favour of the Queen, that four other vessels of
the same character had been laid down, and though they had
since been stopped, he maintained that the documents justified
the Board in the course which they pursued. With regard to
the Albion, although the Hon. and Gallant Officer said that
she was not able to fire her guns, the report stated that she
was a very stiff ship and sailed better than any other in the
squadron.—( Hear, hear.) The fifty-gun frigate, the
twenty-six-gnn frigate, and the eighty-gun ship had
each received favourable testimony from the Hon. and
Gallant officer himself ; and he had read a most favourable
report of the 110-gun ship and the 90-gun ship whilst in the
Mediterranean. Each class had, in fact, received his ap-
proval. Yet, after condemding universally every class of ships
built before 1835, he now called on the House to condemn
the Board of Admiralty for their conduct with respect to ships
whose mode of construction had received from him the most
favourable testimony which it was possible for ships to receive.
—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the question of expense, it
certainly appeared to be established that a clear
saving had been effected. He really did not know
on what earthly ground the motion was to be sap-
ported. With regard to the steamers he would only re-
mark that at the time when he (Mr. C. Wood) left the
Admiralty, all the steamers eonstructed were more or less
experimental. He did not think, in fact, that it was possible
at present for any person to give a clear and decided opinion
either as to the effect which steam navigation would have, or
the best mode of arming and constructing steam-vessels.—
( Hear.) Some time must elapse before any opinion could be
formed. The whole system of steam navigation was in a
course of experiment; and feeling confident that no effort
would be spared by the Board of Admiralty to do all that was
necessary for the safety and security of the country in any future
war, he would willingly leave the question in their hands.
Admiral BOWLES said he should not have risen but for
the allusion made to himself by the Hon. and Gallant Officer
who had introduced this subject, and also by the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member for Westminster. The complaint made against
him by these two Hon. Members was, that he did not find a
gale of wind, or stay out to meet it. That he did not find it,
was certainly not his own fault.—( Laughter.) Why he
should stay out at the risk of injuring valuable masts and in-
curring a damage of several thousand pounds, merely to have
bad weather, he could not possibly conceive.—( Hear, hear.)
He was surprised to bear old sailors talk in such a manner.
With regard to the Albion, he must say that he believed when
at sea she would not be found to roll more than other
ships of the same class.—( Hear, hear.) As to her not fight-
ing her guns when other ships would do so, he believed that
any apprehension on that subject would turn out to be un-
founded. As far as it was safe to hazard an opinion with re-
spect to the Queen, he would state that it was his conviction,
that when tried again, after a few alterations, she would be
found a safe and fast-sailing vessel. He could not conclude
without taking that opportunity of reminding the House what
a debt of gratitude they owed to the members of the Yacht
Club, who, having devoted themselves to the truly British
amusement of yacht sailing, had, from their position
and influence, exercised a very beneficial influence
upon the improvement of naval architecture. Two
amongst those gentlemen deserved special honour and
respect. One of them was Lord Vernon, who unhappily had
not survived to witness the benefit of those improvements to
which he had so greatly contributed ; the other was the Duke
of Portland.—( Hear, hear.) Before Sir William Symonds was
allowed to build his first ship, the Columbine, Lord Vernon
actually gave his personal guarantee to the Admiralty that in
the event of failure he would defray the whole expense. He
thought that such persons were well entitled to the gratitude of
the whole country. With respect to Sir William Symonds, he
believed that the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State
for the Home Department never did greater service to the
country than by appointing him to the office which he ao wor-
thily filled; and with whatever calumnies and misrepresentations
he might be assailed, he felt convinced when Sir W. Symonds
retired from office, he would have the proud satisfaction of
knowing that he had contributed, perhaps, more than any other
officer in the British navy, to the improvement of that branch
of the public service.—( Cheers. )
Capt. PECHELL said that, however good the construction
of the ships might be, still there was reason to complain of the
mode in which they were tried. He fully concurred in the
praise accorded to Sir Wm. Symonds; but that was altogether
a different question from the one raised by his Honourable
and Gallant Friend. He could not help complaining
that when a ship of the old construction had been im-
proved in her bow, and made a most valuable vessel,
in the last year, she was sent to the Gallant Admiral then in
command on the Irish station, and for nine months she lay in
the Shannon, to assist in the collection of the poor-rates.—
(Laughter.) He had observed the experiment with great anx-
iety, and the result was that he was convinced of the efficiency
of the Rattler. He hoped that, whatever determination the
Government came to with respect to the employment of the
Arehimedien screw, and the ordinary paddles, they would look
carefully to the experiments that had been made.
Mr. CORRY said, the motion of the Hon. and Gallant
Officer implied an indirect censure upon the Board of Ad-
miralty, of which, he could assure the House, they were most
undeserving. for to no one branch of their public duties had
they devoted mere anxious attention than to the improve-
ments in the construction of our ships of war. When her
Majesty's present Administration entered upon office, they
found nineteen ships-of-the-line building, or ordered to be
built ; and the whole of those ships were upon the lines of
the Surveyor-General of the Navy. If, therefore, they had
hesitated at continuing the building of those ships, they
must have abandoned altogether the building of the vessels
in course of construction in the dockyards ; and how could
they have justified ;such a proceeding ? It was true that,
at that time, only one of the Surveyor-General's ships had
been at sea—the Vanguard ; but he held in his hand the
highest testimonials as to her capabilities. In July, 1836,
the Honourable Captain D. P. Bouverie reported that
" on all occasions her working was admirable and sur-
passed our fullest expectations ; and I have no doubt that
she will prove herself to possess every geed quality, and that
she is a perfect man-of-war." Captain Martin of the
Caledonia, said, " The Vanguard hauled out of the line just
like a cutter, and went away to windward of the whole squad-
ron, and was six miles on our weather-beam in three hours
and a-half." He (Mr. Corry) was also in possession of other
reports relative to the qualities of the Vanguard, and he be-
lieved it would be admitted that she was a most excellent
man-of-war. Shortly after the present Ministry came into
office, the Queen was commissioned and sent to sea, and in-
structions were given that her qualities should be tested. She
was tried on several occasions, and, on the sth of June, 1842,
Sir Edward Owen wrote—" I have called for the reports of
the qualities of the several ships, and hope to have them for
enclosure in this letter. In the meantime I may say that so
far as my own observations went, no one of the ships, except
the Vanguard, could compete with her Majesty's ship, the
Queen, whether in easiness of motion, or in sailing. She
does not so well answer under low sail, but bears pressing
with her canvass, and answers to it by her power. I have
no difficulty in pronouncing the Queen a ship superior to all
three-deckers, and to most of those with two decks." Captain
Rich, of the Calcutta, also wrote on the 6th of June, 1842 :

" With respect to the comparison between this ship and the
Queen, there can be no doubt, in my opinion, as to the supe-
riority of the latter in every point, namely, in sailing, working,
stability, and weatherly qualities." This opinion he con-
sidered the more valuable as being given by the commander of
a vessel which was placed in competition with the Queen ;
and the House was well aware of the pride which naval officers
generally felt in the qualities of their own ships. He (Mr.
Corry) had in his possession various other reports in
which equally favourable opinions were given of the powers
and Capabilities of the Queen. On the ether hand, the
Admiralty had no reports which would have justified them
in suSpenditig the building of the other vessels which were
theft in course of eonstruetion by the Surveyor-General
But when the squadron commanded by his Hon. and Gallant
Friend behind him went to sea, the Admiralty did not wait
tee be rerrlinded of their duty, but they at once ordered the
einstruetion of the ships of the Queen class and of the Albion
class to be suspended, until the qualities of the Queen and the
Albion had been efficiently tested ; and he hoped that, in the
ensuing snrlng, ample dripotttiiiity would be afforded for ascer-
taining the powers and qualities of those ships. During the
three years her Majesty's present advisers had been in office,
they had ordered sixty-eight ships of various classes to be
built, and of that number etily twenty-nine were built under
the direction of the Surveyor of the Navy, the remaining thirty-
nine being built on the plans of
.other parties. They had now
its progress four ships of the line, six frigates, six smaller
vessels, and twenty-three steamers, tint by the Surveyor of
the Navy. The Admiralty were most ansidits to avail
thenisel*es of all the talent and experience to which they rattld
have recduse, fof the itriprevernent of our steam navy.
(Hear, hear.) Ite might observe that among these vessels
Which had been recently built, not by the Surveyer of the
were toter set the litigs which formed-part of the late ex-
periniental brig squadron ; and the result of that experiment
had established the advantages of the new over the old Method
of shipbuilding, for every one of the new brigs had proved
greatly superior to the cruiser. But the motion of the Hon.
and Gallant Comdtociore had special reference to steam-ves-
sels ; and he believed the lion. and Gallant Officer had stored

tbit'we had not doe Steam=ship of art; character in our teary.
Tho got. nod Oaliant CoMmodore most excuse hind (Mr.
Corry) as a civilian, for differing With hist iii dpioion ort this
Subject and he must beg the House to bear in mind that
riaOtidtil g&ithriten were not quite unanimous in their
opiniciti§ oh thm illicitioti,,especially as to the construction
of ships of War. The Hod. and (Mika Member (Sir
Charles Napier) had Stated that the French d'af-steirfidrs nere
4rea.o7 sOperiOr to durl. [Sir C. Napier here Made an ob-
seivatton atrost thd fable.) At all e*en'ts, if the Hdn. and
Gallant Officer had not said so to-eight, he had made the

statement in private conversation. But the House wcitild re-
Coilea, that a Paper appeared last year, which was attributed
to an illustrious add Gallant hclatiral of the French navy,
and in which the folleWing passage oectirted •—" When the
Gerkon arid Cyclops sailed from the ports of England, we
were struck With thelf feirce as ships of war as well as with
their admirable qualities as sea uOits ; dnd we therefore
evinced a laudable anxiety to procure desigei4 and other
data required fdr the reinforcement of our navy with
vessels of a. similar descriptioh. The attempt proved a
eorriplete failure, and, there are not now in the whole French
navy lii stearn-vessels that can be compared with these in
the English navy. To tor tti tt ridtiori of the actual force of this
rv.
steam navy (the English) it is neoessety to havt!,
and observed
bow formidable is its armament, and with what
skil-
ful foresight ever.ttht-ifi; has been studied.
dTho . y
all
de..
steamers have not been built grid rarrisentru. gine': ter
ld them there
ecEn i a r
cripiions of service indiscriminately:
_larl.9 1
They unite great
nas seer btlt one thought, one object—w
speed and a powerful that had
did not mean to say we
[Me Corry)
troops." lie . ----- in the construction of steam-
boats; but he believed t
attained anything like
A Gallant Officer opposite had re-
ferredbited some improvements..
pehrfaetcteivoenr
) was convinced that the experiments made upon
to the long detention of the Rattler at Woolwich ; but
he (Mr. Corry
that vessel had gone very far to test the merits of the screw.
He must say that be thought all questions relative to the con-
struction of our ships of war might safely be left in the hands
of those who were constitutionally responsible for the conduct
of naval affairs—( Hear, hear)—and he therefore felt it his
duty to oppose the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Officer.
Capt. HARRIS thought it was his duty, as a member of the
naval profeesion to thank the Gallant Commodore for having

1845.

hfought this stihjeei under the consideration of the House. 'A
gdod deal had been said etiont the building of ships, but it was
much easier to point out objections then to show how they
*ere to be built. He did not think the Gallant Commodore
Would din the object he hid view, even if his motion were
carried ; but he Wes of opinion that there ought to be some in-
quiry into the subject, dud that a Commission should be ap-
pointed.---(Hear, hear.) the did riot think that Admiralty
could give, with the other duties they had to perform, sufficient
Attention to the subject. He approved of a great deal of what
Sir Wm. Elymonds had done, though he had failed in some
things. With regard to the armament of frigates, he thought
it was a fault not to suit the weight of rectal to the quantity of
timber. For instance, there were the Winchester, and the
Pique, two frigates now in commission. The former was
of 1 636 tons, and had thirty-six guns of 32-pounders.
The latter was of 1,436 tons, being 200 less than the other,
and she eatried 52 guns of a smaller calibre, and any person,
upon referring td the naval history of the country, would see
that where the number of guns and their weight were propor-
tioned to the timber of the Vessel, she was more effective than
when that proportion was not kept tip. The same was observ-
able with regard to the Carnatic and the Belvidere. The
former was a 26-gun ship of 32-pounders, and of 900 tons ;
the latter carried 42 guns, making a difference of 16 guns,
while there was only a difference of 35 in the tonnage. He
looked with satisfaction to the efforts which were now snaking
to increase the naval force and steam navigation of the country.
Mr. WAKLEY said that the House ought to be indebted
to his Hon. and Gallant Friend for bringing this motion before
the House. He was entitled to its gratitude, and whether he
failed or not, his labours en this question would entitle him to,
and he would receive the gratitude of, the public. That sub-
ject had been discussed almost ever since he had a seat in the
House, and it was always made a sham question by official
persons on both sides of the House. It was now time that the
subject should be seriously considered, for it was one in which
the public took the greatest possible interest. The navy was
the favourite service of the people of England, and no man
would refuse his share of any reasonable expenses to keep it
in an efficient state. His Hon. and Gallant Friend
had shown, in his own and peculiar language, that several ships
had been seriously damaged, but there was one vessel, called
" The Admiralty,"—(Laughter)--which he did not believe
would recover from the damage it had received on this occa-
sion, unless those who manned it made inquiries how so much
money had been wasted in building ships which were declared
to be not fit for service. What had been said by the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Westminster had perfectly astonished him.
He said that ships had been built in the dock-yards, which
cost a tenth—he said it first, and then an eighth--of the
national debt, in building ships which had never gone to sea,
and were never fit to go to sea. He said that that statement
perfectly astonished him, coming as it did from the Hon. and
Gallant Captain, who had rendered such great services to his
country—whose name would be respected wherever it was
known—who always spoke his mind freely, and said what he
thought on every subject to which he gave his attention. The
allegations and arguments he put forward would make their
impression out of doors, whatever might be their effect in that
House; but he ( Mr. Wakley) was one of those who thought
that the appointment of a Committee was not suitable to the
emergency. He did not think that it would lead to any prac-
tical result, for there were none in that House who understood
the subject except naval officers, and they, perhaps, would
be jealous of each other, and there might be a powerrel firing
of broadsides on each side of the table if they alone were: o
compose the Committee. The Hon. and Gallant Captains aid
he did not believe the Lords of the Admiralty would know one
ship from another, or scarcely a three-decker from a New-
castle collier.—(Laughter.) If that were the case with
respect to Lords of the Admiralty, how much worse with those
who had no connexion with naval matters. The Hon. Gen-
tleman the Secretary to the Admiralty, who had been pro-
moted from a Lord to a Secretary, had sought permission
which he could not very well understand, to
have those things left with them. Why those
things had been left to the Admiralty long enough. The
Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Halifax, got up and spoke in
defence of the existing Board. Why, to he sure he did. He
had been Secretary to the Admiralty himself. There was always
an understanding between the official ins and out..—
(Laughter.) He did not mean to say that there was any re-
gular compact between them, but the thing was understood.
This subject was too important to be understood to be got rid
of in this way, after the statement made by officers who had ob-
tained so much renown, and whose names were identical with
the glory of this country. When the public understood the
subject, they would require a full, a complete, and a searching
investigation. The Hon. and Gallant Captain had alluded to
the experiments made by the vessels built under Sir William
Symonds, but he omitted to remark that the vessels which he
belt, and were put upon their trial, had not their full comple-
ment of stores and water, so that the vessels did not draw so
much water as if they had their full complement, and, there-
tgre, the experiment was not complete. The First Lord of the
Admiralty addressed the House with regard to steamers, and he
heard, for the first time, that they were to give such enormous
sums for building steam-vessels which were only to carry three
or four guns, two in
_their bows and two in their stern. Was
that to be the case ? Why, supposing such steamers were to
encounter those that had broadsides and guns, what would be
the condition of their steamers?—(Hear.) Such was the idea
which this country had of war-steamers. He had heard a naval
officer state that the application of steam to ships would change
the whole naval tactics of this country. The Hon. Gentleman
on the other side of the House had laid great stress on what
had been said by a foreign Admiral. Why, was it not
natural that be should wish to increase the naval power of
his own country? It was of course his object to make the
naval power of this country appear as small as possible.—
( Laughter, and cries of ,‘ No, no.") He looked through the
large end of the telescope, and saw our navy as small as he
could.—( Laughter.) Yes, he looked through the large end of
the telescope, and saw the navy of this country under the
smallest aspect possible.—(Laughter, and cries of *"
That is not
what you mean.") He looked through the large end, and saw
our navy as small as he could.—(Continued laughter, arid
cries of " Try back.") He begged pardon; Hon. Gentlemen
were right, and he was wrong. What he meant to say was,
that the foreign officer saw the navy of this country in its real
magnitude; but he misrepresented its power in his own
country. He represented it as much as possible—
making it appear larger than it really was, in order
to induce his own country to exhibit all their national
energy—to make exertions so as to compete with
this country in the time of war. Now, he could place no re-
liance on such a statement, but it was the duty, the especial
duty of Englishmen, to look to that force, which must be their
security and the great pillar of their protection. —( Hear, hear.)
Was it not an alarming fact that such large ships had been
built at such an enormous cost, and such large sums of money
squandered at a time, while it was stated by the Gallant
Officer, they were not fit to encounter the" raging sea?" Was
it not monstrous that they should have proceeded in this way for
so long a period ? Something, he admitted, was done, but
they had gone indeed but a small way in the right road. His
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) alluded
to the aid of science in such a service as the navy,
and he regretted that the school of naval architecture,
which was so well calculated to educate persons for that parti-
cular purpose, had been destroyed. They had now no such
school while they were to be found throughout the Continent.
Considering how the country was situated, he was of opinion,
as one of the public as well as a Member of that House, that
hat there ought to be a searching inquiry into the state of
the navy, and that there should be a close investigation,
which he thought could be best made by a Royal Commis-
sion, composed of experienced persons, for the discharge of
whose duties the Executive Government would be responsible.
He should therefore advise his Hon. and Gallant Friend
to withdraw his motion, because he was afraid if he pursued it
to a division many persons would be placed in an unfavour-
able light out of doors, who, though they were of opinion that
the inquiry was necessary, might yet vote against the motion
of his Hon. and Gallant Triend, because, if carried, it would
lead to no practical result. He might then give notice of a
motion for an address to the Crown, to appoint a Commission
for the purpose intended by the motion nos: before the House.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER replied he had heard the
remark that such and such a person was good in debate, ,12.iit he
had never heard that a good debater had recourse to perverting-
the language of persons who spoke before him, and he had no
hesitation in saying that the Hon. Member for Halifax had
most completely perverted his language. The Hon. Gentleman
said that he had condemned every class of ships built by other
builders except the large class of three-deckers and the eigh-
teen-gun brigs. Now he most distinctly denied that. He said
that all the three-decked ships except the ninety-eights and the
nineties were good, that all the seventy-fours, the eighty-fours,
and the eighties, were good, and even down to the sixty-fours,.
with the exception of the " forty-thieves ;" that the thirty-twos
and twenty-twos were also good, but that the twenty-eight-
gun donkeys, and the ten-gun brigs were good for no.
thing. He was, therefore, surprised that the Hon. Gentleman
put words into his month which he had never used. The Gal-
lant Officer at the head of the Admiralty had also misunder-
stood him. He seemed to think that he was of opinion that the
forty thieves were in good condition, and that they ought not to
have been cut down. Now he was just of the contrary opinion,
for he thought the Gallant Officer had a perfect right to cut
them down. The Gallant Officer had said that he had opened
competition ; now he (Sir Charles Napier) must beg
to differ with him upon that point, for he was
satisfied that if the navy had been thrown open to
public competition some years ago, hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of pounds would have been saved to the country.
He considered that the Gallant Officer had so many duties
now thrown upon him, that he would not be able to perform
them all if he were cut in a dozen pieces. The Queen's yacht
was a most imperfect vessel ; it could not be steered to

within four or five points; and during the time her Majesty
was on beard, she was not allowed to go more than six
knots an hour; she was in fact, at the present moment, under-
going the same operations that the vessel called the Queen
had undergone. There was not a single steam-boat in the
possession of the Government that was worthy of the navy.
He hoped they would come to a good steam-navy at last. The
Gallant Officer opposite appeared to think that he was rather
sev Or e upen him ; he could assure him that he did not intend
to be sd. He would not trouble the House further, but he
felt bohnu: to say that unless the Government would cause some
inquiry to beene on the subject, he must divide the House
upon his motion.
the Hon. and Gallant Officer
Mr. C. WOOD could asiur:
that It was not his intention to perv,;:t the meaning of any-
thing he had stated.
an.
the House
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw,
divided, when there appeared—

For the motioii.
Against it ...
Majority against the motion
Mr. CHARLES HOPE obtained leave to bring in a 1301
for enabling the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital to im-
prove a certain lane or street called Fisher-lane, in the paria
of Greenwich, in the county of Kent, and for other purposes.ri
Mr. CHARLES HOPE also moved for leave to l:iogpnl to
g a
13111 for enabling the Commissioners of
tGreenwichtwonwic'har
i ita
es, an
grant leases of coals and minerals for forty
making a railway or tram-road from Gree collied for
ry to
Berwick-bridge.
Mr. HUME objected to the Bill.
Mr. HODSON HINDE eotertained great objections to the
Bill He was sure if its provisions *ere 'mown and appre-
ciated it would never be brought forward. It was well known
that Greenwich Hospital held large estates in the north of
England, one of which, near Berwick-upon-Tweed, had under
it some valuable seams of coals. These mines had been worked
at a considerable loss, but if a better communication could be
obtained between those mines and the'port of London, that which
bad hitherto been a losing speculation would become a most
profitable one. He had no objection to the parties obtaining
the beet access to a shipping place, hut they were not entitled
to come to that House and call. upon it to grant
them powers to make a railway, not for public
purposes, but for the interest of private individuals.
If he was correctly informed, every individual landowner
along the line was opposed to it ' - the lords of the manor, the
Corporation of Berwick, and the Harbour Commissioners
were opposed to it, as injurious to the trade of the port. The
compulsory powers sought by this Bill would enable the House
to lay down this railway along the side of a public highway for
a considerable distance. He did not think that the Commis-

sioners of the Hospital themselves were quite aware of the na-
ture of the Bill ; too much power and influence in such
matters was often given to solicitors and others connected with
such institu. ions. He was confident that if the Government
bad been informed of the nature of the Bill it would never
have been brought forward, and he trusted the statements
against it would be inquired into by the Board of Trade.
Having made these observations he should not think it his
duty to take the sense of the House on the question.
Mr. FOSTER suite agreed with the obtervations of the
Hon. Member opposite. He was sure:that if the measure had

,1 ,

been investigated st would never have been brought forward•
He should like to know what would lie the course pursued with
respect to the present Bill?
The SPEAKER said that it -would be referred to the Com-
mittee on Private Bills, to see that all the standing orders had
been complied with. If that had been done, then the measure
would be proceeded with precisely like any other privet!, Bill;
no advantage whatever was gained by the manner in which the
Bill was now introduced.
Mr. FOSTER said, with the understanding that the
Bill was to be referred to a Committee and undergo a full in-
vestigation he should be perfectly satisfied. But when in-
quired into it would be found that the objections to the meanie
were perfectly just.
Mr. LIDDELL also agreed in the remarks that had been
made against the Bill. It was an invasion of private rights,
and he could not understand why a pnblic body like Greenwich
Hospital should be allowed to carry a compulsory railway
through private property (not for a public line, but one which
the public could not use) of a district where mining had been
carried on for the last three hundred years, without the usual
understanding with the proprietors of the land. He should
oppose the second reading, unless he saw much stronger reasons
for the measure than he did at present.
Mr. HODGSON said it would be better if the Hon.

Member who introduced the Bill would withdraw it at once ;
it would save the House the trouble of throwing it out en the
second reading, which would undoubtedly be done.
Mr. BROTHERTON said the opposition to this Bill was
one of the most extraordinary he had ever heard of. The
speech of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, against the measure,
had persuaded him that it ought to be introduced. He sur
pected that there was some private interest at work behind,
against the measure.
Mr. FOSTER declared that he had no private interest in
the matter.

Mr. COLLETT said the Bill was also to empower the Com-
missioners to let tkeir mines fer a terni of forty-two years.
Nor was it meant that the Bill was to Five the lessees of the
Hospital the power of making the railway, or to the Com.
missioners. . _

Mr. C. HOPE was understood to say, to the Commis-
sioners, undoubtedly.
Mr. COLLETT said, from the wording of the motion, it
appeared to be the lessees.
Mr. C. HOPE explained, that the opposition of the Corpo-
ration of Berwick only extended to carrying the railway be-
yond a certain point ; they did not oppose it to a certain extent.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.