The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-27 00:00:00

PRIVILEGE:

Mr. ROEBUCK rose amidst loud cries of " Hear,
hear,"and considerable confusion,in censequence of some
Hon. Members not having taken their places.: We un-
derstood the-Hon. Member to say (for he spoke in so low i
a tone as to be scarcely audible. n the gallery) that he
would not have: risen if •he had not.
.felt hiniself
imperatively called upon "" to address the House.
Hon. Members would bear in mind, that on the last even-
ing on which the House met, an Hon. Menther opposite,
namely, the Hon. Member-Tor Canterbury, thought
fit, in the performance 'of 'his duty, to make
certain observations upon himself. To those observations
he had given what answer be thought sufficient. The
attack was made upon him in a speech --which was some
what 'elaborate ; but he thought, the_ House would admit
that he <Mr. Roebuck) did not lose his temper on that
occasion—(Hear, hear)Und that- he spoke in such an
off-hand way, that it might have been supposed that the
matter would be suffered to rest. •
An. HON. MEMBER 'here , rose to order. If the Hon.
Member meant to complain of any proceeding tending
to cause a breach of the peace, he ought not to use lan-
guage tending to create a breach of the peace.---(Hear.)
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member was perfectly
in' order.--(Cheers.) • , „
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that before he read to the
House a letter, which he had received-from the Hon.
Member for Canterbury, he would at once state_ that he
had no.wish to give that Hori:Meniber the least offence.
He then said, and he now repeated, that whenever he
was called on to Account for, or explain anything that he
might have said (as we understood), he should be pre-
pared to do so.—(Repeated cries of " Speak up.") He
did not regret anything which.. had been said by him
after the sort of mode—(Cheers)--in which the Hon.
-Member for, Canterbury had alluded to him.—(Re-
newed cheers.) ; The expressions used by the Ho•
nourable. Member conveyed an imputation of
a grave character upon him. (Mr. Roebuck).
'The Hon. Member said that he had deceived his party—
that he disguised' servility by severity, and (as we Un-
derstood) that he was seeltin;:. the favour of. the present
Goternment;under the appearance of a foe.—(Repeated
cries of " Speak up," the Hon. Member speaking in an
unusually low toner although.with.s. very.,emphatic man-
ner.) -- He had been called a -rebel to the Qqeen,,and the
friend of Papineau. To that attack be had answered as
he would answer over and over again, • but he
answered only in fair Parliamentary- retort. He would
now .read to the House the letter he had received from
the Hon. Member for Canterbury., The Hon. Member
then read the following letter, but in the same indistinct
tone : . . .

" Travellers' Club, April, 1844.
Sir,—l cannot. determine from the newspaper re-
port of your speech in the House of Commons last
night; nor from what I understood when I beard it,
whether to me personally you meant to apply the words
dishonourable. motives.' If so, I beg to refer
you to a letter ,which I addressed to my
constituents, dated duly, 1843, in which
was this passage—‘ That as I never asked .a
favour of Sir Robert ~'eel' or of his Government,
I could not have been actuated: by any disappointment
or obligation-in vOtingagaiast them. • Now, I call apOn
you to state that you did-not mean to apply these words
to me ; find if you did so, either to retract them or to
refer to a friend with whom my,friend; Captain Garrett,
may communicate.
" G. SMYTHE."
(Signed)
He (Mr. Roebuck) did give answer that Mr. Smythe
should hear from him, but not.not by letter; but in the
House of Commons. But he said to Captain Garrett,
As far as you are concerned you need;not be alarmed."
Mr. SMYTHE—That was not the answer.
The SPEAKER—Order. • •
• Mr. ROEBUCK—Sir, I am now here to answer for
whit I have said. •
The SPEAKER said the letter just read by the Hon.
and ,Learned.Member.for Bath, having been sent to him
as a Member of that HOuSe by another Hon. Member of
that House, and the subjeCt-matter of that letter having
had its origin in some proceedings in that. House, it
would be the proper course for the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath. to hand it over to• the clerk of the
_House, to be read by him at the table.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr, ROEBUCK was understood to say he should not
give up the letter, unless by express command of the
House. ,He had considered it his duty to advise the
House.of a fact, but he declined to give up a letter.—
(Loud laughter.)
Mr. CURTEIS said he felt it his duty to -move that
the letter referred to be read by.the clerk at the table of
the House. .

The SPEAKER said he had. before stated the course

that, it would be the duty of the House to pursue. He
must now positively require .of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath to bring theletter up in order to its
being read, as it must be the foundation of any, such
further proceedings as the House might think•clue to its
own dignity to adopt.
Mr. It OEBUCK brought up the letter, which was then
read by the clerk to the House. - •
After a pause of a moment' or two,
Mr. SMYTHE said the Hen. and Learned Member

for Bath, true to his practice, as to his right, had taken
one Hon. Member by surprise, because the answer given
to him (Mr. S.) by the gentleman he had sent to the
Hon. and Learned Member for Bath was not that which

the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had just reported
to the House. The answer given by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath to the gentleman sent to him
was this—" He shall hear of this." His (Mr. Stnythe's)
Friend had replied that he must have " a definite an-
swer," to which the Hon. and Learned MeMber for Bath
had rejoined, "He would send an answer." From that
hour he (Mr. Smythe) had been expecting an answer.—
(Roars of laughter.) Me (Mr. Smythe) could give his
sacred word of honour that, .except to the friend
he Aad sent to the llonourable and Learned
Member for Bath, he had never opened his lips
to any person, or made the slightest intimation of the
course he was about to pursue. But this afternoon, he
(Mr. Smythe) by accidetit met the Noble Lord, the
Member for Newark (Lord J. Manners), who informed
him that he had been given to understand by an Hon.
Member of that House, that the Honourable

and ~ Learned ~Member for Bath was about to
bring this matter before the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Inasmuch as he had taken but one gentleman into his
confidence, while thei. Hon. :and Learlied Member for
Bath hid chosen to take somewhere about five hundred
into lii,s—(oh, oh)—he (Mr. Smythe) was well content
that.that confidence should be full, unreserved, and ex-
plicit.—(Hear, hear.) And 'he must say this—that
when the Hon. .and Learned Gentlemen .whO had just
spoken abOut having only made use of alair parliamen-
tary retort—he should-have perfectly agreed' with the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that his remarks had
only partaken of the nature of a fair parliamentary re-
tort if he had made use of it for the first time.—(Hear,-
hear.) But it must be in the recollection of
the House that that Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
upon . an, Irish debate, during- the- last session
of Parliament, when he (Mr, Smythe) had already
spoken, made a speech characterised by' severe and caus-
tic severity, with regard to himself,, making use of the
same insinuation that,he had preferred on Wednesday
evening. He (Mr. Smythe) was at the time utterly un-
able to give any reply to the insinuation,' because the
Hon. , and Learned Gentleman afterwards left town
to attend the circuit. But on that occasion he consulted
a friend, who told him he could take no notice of what
had been said, but that he Must contradict the insinua-
tion. 'And that insinuation he did now contradict, in the
most immediate, direct, and public manner, because he
Must he perrnitted .to say that it was a grave
reflection on a public man, that he should be supposed
to act IrOM ienal, low, and sordid motives.—(CheerS.)
And- now- the, Hoe. and Learned Member for Bath had
brought, the mattr:befoie the House, he must say that
he- had done 'it in a different spirit from what he (Mr.
Smythe) eNpected he would have done. When-he under-
stood thothe,flon, and Learned Memberhad undertakun
to bring the matter before the House, hnemiected thathe
would have done it in a speech somewhat similar to those
he was in the habit of making—a speech full of those
aspersions he was in the habit of throwing out. But as
the Hon. and Learned Member had not done so, it only

remained for him (Mr. Smythe) most humbly and
respectfully to apologise to the House, if he
had done anything which involved a breach of its order
and privileges.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said, according to the course usually
taken in such cases, it would be necessary that both
Hon. Gentlemen should give an assurance, which they
would have no difficulty in giving, that this matter should
not go further. •
Mr. ROEBUCK objected to comply with this, because
this would pre-suppose that he intended to pursue that
course.—(Laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL said that assurance clearly exempted the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman from any suspicion of in-
tending to do so.—(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER—It now only remains for me to dis-
charge my duty by calling on Mr. Smythe to' give the
House his assurance that he will Lot take any hostile

proceedings.
Mr. SMYTHE—The thing is perfectly .
(Laughter.) If the Hon. and Learned Member chooses
to bring the matter before the House, and then says I am
not one to bring matters to. extremities, thereby insi-
nuating that I am the person—(Laughter)—and throw-
ing the whole odium of the position on me—it is per-
fectly absurd, because you must remember the position
in which the Hon. Gentleman p!aces me. If the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman is willing to state, that he has taken
the initiative in this matter, because he is the most diffi
cult man in the world to deal with--(Laughter, and
cries 'of Order, order)— because he has engaged in some
half dozen affairs of this kind.—(Loud cries of Order,
order—Chair, chair.)
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Gentleman must see that
his conduct was not respectful to the House. (He had
been asked not to engage in hostile proceedings ; and he
(the Speaker) now requested that he would answer that
call. _ .

Mr. SM YTHE—Then I will do so in one word. As
it is impossible to determine whether the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman is only here in this House as a
Member. of Parliament, I beg in the most full and
unreserved manner to apologise, for any. breach of
formulas or forms of the House of which may
have been guilty. I have no more to say,
excepting that this matter will riot go further.
FERRAND'S ACCUSATION.

On the motion of Sir R. PEEL, the Order of the Day
for proceeding with the matter of the complaint of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Beverley,
and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, was read.
The SPEAKER—Is William Busfeild Ferrand, Esq.,
in his place ?
Mr. Ferrand rose and bowed.

The Clerk at the table then read the report of Mr.
Ferrand's speech.
Mr. FERRAND then rose and said, Sir, I owe, in
the first place, an apology to this House for having been
the unintentional means of taking up so much of its
valuable time. Had the Hon. and Learned Member for
Bath not taken me unawares the other evening—(Hear,
hear)—l should, on reflection, have given him
. .

the answer which the Honourable Member for
Finsbury said ' he would have given. But,
Sir, having in the hurry of the moment been
induced to reply to the question of the Hon. and Learned
Member, lam sorry that I should have been the cause
of thus taking up the time of the House. I owe
another apology, Sir, to the working-classes in the fac-
tory districts, that I should have been the means this
evening of depriving them of one moment of that sacred
time which they were expecting would be em-
ployed this evening in debating a question of
vital impor ance—a question to them of life or death.
I hope the House will do me the justice to believe that, if
any remarks of mine, either of a public or of a private
nature, should have wounded the feelings of any indi-
vidual, I shall ever be prepared to give that explanation
to that individual which one man of honour has a right to
expect from another. It appears to me, Sir, that there
have been unfounded conclusions arrived at as to what I
said in reference to the subject now brought before the
I louse. On Monday evening, as far'as my recollection goes,
I said to this House, that I believed that every word of
mine, as reported in the Times newspaper, which related
to the Right Hon. the Secretary of State for the Home
Department and to the Hon. and Learned Member for
Beverley was strictly true; but that I would not vouch
for them until I had again referred to that paper, and if they
were correct, I would come down the following day and
fearlessly and boldly, before this House, either avow or
disavow them. I redeemed my pledge to , this House.
I came down with the full intention of doing so, and so
I did. Sir, the House labours under an incorrect
impression, when it supposes that I was driven from the
House by the rude and unmanly, interruption
which was offered me by the Hon. Members
opposite—(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition
benches)—or that I fled from_ the charge.
the charge which was made against me was that fused
language at Leeds affecting those two lion. Gentlemen,
and I admitted I had done so. I admit so, for every
word in that paper is what I uttered at the Leeds meet-
ing. When I left this House I adopted a precedent
which has been pursued by lion. Members placed under
the peculiar circumstances of myself. I retired from
the House, considering it would be improper in me, and
impertinent towards the House, if I remained one
moment longer. Having redeemed my pledge, I left,
lest I might be, an impediment to the free discussion of
the subject. I have been ordered by the House of Corn--
mons to appear in my seat to-day, and I
,respectfully
obeyed the summons, as I will obey every summons or
order this House may give me if it is justified in so do-
ing.—(Laughter.) lam given to understand that if I
was prepared in my plaCe this evening to plead guilty
t.) the charge, which the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman has made against me, that I shall
receive a free pardon at his hands—that if I do not plead
gliilty the House will then proceed to pass sentence on
roe, without even examining an 3 evidence—(Cries of
" No, no")—that it will proceed to pass sentence on
me without producing any evidence as to the
construction ..to be put upon .my words. I hope
I shall -be allowed to say one word as to
the conduct hitherto pursued by this self-constituted
Court of ,Honour. Mr. Speaker—No man, Sir, ever sat
in, that chair, who conducted himself with more strict

impartiality, more gentlemanly demeanour, or more
graceful bearing than yourself.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, in
this new office as judge of this self-constituted Court of
Honour, you yourself have found the greatest
difficulty in acting as an impartial judge.
Sir, the other evening, when that common in-
!ormer applied to me—(Loud cries of " Order,
order.") I retract the words, but I will
never retract the sentiment. (Partial cheering.)
Sir, when that public accuser—(lnterruption)—it is a
Parliamentary phrase, and it is ungenerous to attempt
to interrupt me. Sir, when that public accuser applied
to me the epithet of falsehood the other evening, I declared
that the language was ungentlemanly. You called me
to order. Sir, when oae of the witnesses in this prose-
cution read his evidence against me he supported it by
engrafting on that evidence a leading article in the
Times newspaper.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, the leading men
of both political parties in this House attacked me in
violent language, Nay, one of them, in language un-
justifiable, charged me with a crime, Sir, of
which he himself was guilty. Is he a fit judge to sit
here? I admit that a more noble or generous-hearted man
never trod the soil of Britain; but under the excitement
of the moment he uttered expressions which were quite
unjustifiable.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, the shouts of revenge
which issued from the jury were also within your hear-
ing ; and let the House recollect that the Prime Mi-
tnhisetseerwaolls, of
declared England,
in
this wh
House, I
thathad
by scarcely
done
so I had deprived it of gratifying itself with a great
deal of amusement. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
having
Sir, as a Member of this House, I protest
against these proceedings. In the name of the people of
England—(lronical cheers)—I deny your right to try
me on this charge—in the name of the people of England
I pronounce this self-constituted Court of Honour to be
an illegal and an unconstitutional Court ; and, Sir, in
the name of the people of England, I refuse to plead at
its bar.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and partial cheering.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he by no means rose to
address the House in answer to the speech of the
Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down.
But his Honourable Friend the Member for Bever-
ley had, in distinct terms, denied the accuracy
of the charge preferred against him by the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough. He (Sir J. Graham)
had not given to the House any statement or assurance
in reference to the facts relating to the charge, which
was then under the consideration of the House,
and it was only for that purpose, before he re-
tired from the House, .that he rose to address them.
Now, before the House proceeded further with the consi-
deration of this subject, they should hear his (Sir J.
Graham's statement. The Honourable Gentleman
had referred to the authority of this tribunal,
and said that he did not come to ask tle
opinion of the House as to the accusation. But
he (Sir J. Graham), as the accused, was entitled to ask
them for their acquittal and justification.—(Hear, hear')
He was in a condition to ask for that decisioncand he,had
a right to state what the answer was, both
as to what concerned himself personally' or what
concerned the Hon. Member for Beverly. The first
charge, in which he alone was concerned, was couched
in these few words—that he was a person wbo had
taken steps to procure a false report for the
purpose of crushing the Hon. Member for Knaresbo-
rough, and that he afterwards dismissed the poor wretch
whom he had used as his degraded and ignominious in-
strument. He had with the utmost diligence endeavoured
to ascertain whether he had had any communication,
direct or indirect, with Mr. Mott in reference to the
report. He was unable to find any trace
of any correspondence with the Assistant-Com-
missioner. (Loud cheers.) He had- endeavoured
to find any trace of communication with the Commis-
sioners, the central authority, under whose directions the
Assistant-Commissioners acted. He could find no trace
of any such communication.—(Hear, hear.) With re-
ference to the report which he had used in that House—
(Cheers)—he was most anxious to ascertain whether,
although there had been no written communication with
the Commissioners, there had been .any verbal commu-
nication between them in reference to the report. He
himself could not recollect that there had been any ;
but he had the positive assurance of the Commissioners
that there had been no such communication, and there-
fore he was in a condition to state in his place in the
House, as far as any assurance from him could be given,
that no direction whatever had issued from him in re-
ference to the report. He repeated, therefore, that it
was an erroneous statement—deliberately adhered to
and not now retracted—that he "had used his official
ons whi
power to obtain a false report for the purpose of crush-
ing the Hon. Member, and that he dismissed the poor
man
nosmt
instrument."—(Hear,
ehnatd. forear his
hear,
tiegrn. m°i
nf
Titahs
eyhtedh innsmogil
dismissal
r aalv
ea
b, gyhu
emhaeihnmot
ol vdfe rs eaay necessarytphercrtsoanny
in Mr.
such
3 ,hu
ar.
thing
denialinogt
ta,ss
situation was almost on the face of it absurd.
He (Sir J. Graham) said most positively that the dis