The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-17 00:00:00

:o be nectsAar!'

use must exl)6
id multiplicity
tance Commitot:
not the Comae
hint- the Fil3,
er all the subjet.'"
in every
required. /19'''.1
whether the b`le
taken to keep t
4? To arrive,'
the scientific 'lli
required in .hir
I in a variety
is men could
Right Lion. Gen;
d be kept UP
.t that the
0
e amount of
old them be 03a (iii
moronin yotop;
g
knowledge of t

al
but for die br°:j
had just reotu,,
,st positively
: not one farthu.*v
evenue, unle°
a proof of its sv
imagine such /1
practicable. do
it intended to ,
what was 14,.
Lignity of the
klember for, Cal
try were to .Itudit,
harmony, °I
) their import'',
resorted to ever:),
3uld form a yet
of this Cono4
in the other, ai,
which was quni
at attended 11°,$
ae would say to"f."
'as sn much 01,
Finasce C°
it confess this
upon the ooJu
br°,
91
opposite, t t,
Dud could be 891,
ig itself. I% seas
hich evidence°,
of it as useles;:
if it we' ut,e9-
ie Hon. 31e03
cient for the pure
n. Aletnbcrs " 0,1
,cessary, 00grb.Ssee,
:o the (A)mt°"
[ear.)—heAP
the
Members ,
I using the ku°.'i
: but solartbll'v
!d that the 9t3te;
louse was 3 're
hence given he °41:0,
present, that
mbar had arrice"
tti?
f
statement 0 of
deficiency of S
would enter ru
oi 0 the cou°i.)
Member had rTis
mmittee, or
he finances Of of
was the laboarvel,
ie Hon.
d to the Hoe/.La
arinciple state",,ot
'De that could
proper or Ft
statement tvi.j,,le(l)
I read was 101,0
If, and he vi°
•

le of garblingOf
dem an. pa
*a 4c ale°

Personal imputation by the use of the word garbled, which
le Wanly employed as incorrect or incomplete.
41'ir- 'MAURICE FITZGERALD agreed with the
Noble Lord (Howick), that on going into the Committee
they ought to he guarded by one principle, namely, the
Ineaus of meeting the expenditure; but he did not agree
with the Noble Lord that no vote ought to be granted till a
necessity for the grant was shown actually to exist. Such
a Principle could not be reduced into practice. He ex-
Pl:essed hie anticipations of much benefit resulting from the
Finance
Committee. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen
VPR'sed a vast saving could be effected. He (Mr. M.
'tzgereld) disbelieved it ; but he thought that if they as-
se4tetl to the appointment of a Committee, they should allow
araPPeals from it to that House, at least until its Report was
~..,
74 before them. Nothing had been publicly heard upon
me 'nbject until to-night, and now, for the first time, two
eulbers of the Committee were found in violent vonflict
eerttai wbe sum of eight millions of the public money. It was
a y not a very convenient mode of doing businese, fur
nisrlittee to be sitting up stairs on the whole question,
atiu4:l then to call upon the House, without any Report, to
better difficult points, on partial grounds. If so, the
hotiitet mode would be to put an end at once to the select
and let the whole subject be discussed by the House
Sturge•No doubt the appointment of the Committee had
shortened. the sittings, and he (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) had ex-
Pt:actell that when once the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was
it, there would, for a time at least, have been an
T"' of his speeches upon public expenditure.—(Hear.)
to had another feeling regarding the Committee, and
e,waa this—that it had been meddling with matters
he should be sorry to see in their hands.—
th.e had no objection that they should inquire into all
details of the Revenue; but surely they were not
kelY to throw much light on the general policy of the
Pl'autrY• He, for one, should no more think of leaving to
tlteir decision questions of general or colonial policy, con-
r'Leeted with the army, the navy, the ordnance, Sec. than he
411411,d he willing to intrust it to my Uncle Tobv or Cur-
Poral Trim.___(Hear, hear, and laughter.) If called upon
l'',4.Point out one body worse qualified than another for such
i* inquiries, he should at enee direct attention to the
44nuaittee of Finance. He feared that there was no
reAter del • mnon
than
to represent that that body would
ect anything extensively and practically useful. He knew
Tnothing, indeed, but what he had heard, like everybody
;se, in the streets ; but he had asked the question, who-
a °et' it was likely that the Committee would accomplish
ee wing to the extent of five millions? That sum would
tittle enough ; and as it was less than the country had a
nght to look for, a very trifling impression would be
PrWuced by it; but when he found that the retrench-
rin
1t to be effected would not exceed a million and a
t;,"1 or two millions, people at large would not give
,Ilembers any great credit for their exertions.—
„e nad understood that the Committee had extended their
'Cluitiee to the Ordnauce Department, and this again
tirliQught him to the question, why was that to be accom-
Lted through the medium of a Committee which ought
done on the responsibility of the different depart
?--(Hear.)—The Noble Duke now at the head of
aGovernment was formerly at the bead of the Ordnance
tl_,
it teas said he had completed all practicable reduc-
mia.'• If, then, the Committee went beyond the point to
‘44'eh he had proceeded, the probability was that it would
theY,'lo mischief by its interference. It seemed to him that
a,h.4enabers of it were ignorant upon all those points on
et:l,l they ought to be informed before they undertook
f general investigations. He could say of such of his
Le 7 tis as were upon the Committee, that they were corn-
Vtitt to the ordinary purposes for which Members of Par -
txneet were inteuded—(Hear and laughter)--but it was
it:1141110Y dangerous to allow them to go beyond their
aged r, and to touch great subjects, for the management
eia investigation of which they were never intended,
pr'eer hy nature or education. Concurring entirely in the
u'iPle, that the House was bound to consider the means
fl
making good the Estimates, before it resolved itself into
tee°ll:nriittee, lie thought the warning of the Honourable
„,_
,ruher a little ill-timed. The House was not to be con-
eal'-,,`tl into a Court of Appeal from the Finance Cons-
;4ee, Without due notice, and without any of the in-
I.A,kation that had been laid before the select body.
et -4,Lr• HUME and Mr. PALMER (of Berkshire), rose
IL "se same time : the former was proceeding to reply to
*extraordinary attack just made by the Hon. Member,
as there was a general call in the House for
Air. PALMER proceeded—The information of the Hon.
,"entlensan who had just sat down was nut altogether cor-
.ll/4,t ; and, as a humble Member of the Committee, he was
suAe to state that that body did not think great national
questions within its province.
:Ir, Alderman WAITHMAN expressed his conviction
t neither the House nor the country would trouble it-
hadruneh about the labour of the Finance Committee. He
154,2° ',eh confidence in the exertions of the iodividual
taii,:,'"a; but he had maintained before, and he main-
now, that however proper it might be to: ppoint a
fu,,,, 11,eQ Committee, it ought not to supersede the
th,`"las of the Government, and that the discussions on
ry e'ttnates ought not to be postponed.—(Hear, hear.)—
iat! Roust too would not do its duty if it did not inquire
IC' grievances and redress them, and one of the most cry-
tl grievance* was an expenditure beyond the means of
killeouutry to sustain it. An Non. and Learned Gentle-
(.ll, ' on a former occasion, had shown that on an average
slbjetson in *ems throughout the kingdom was receiving
th, from the poor-rates, while more than one-seventh of
t P°Pulation wise struggling to avoid the necessity of aek-
qfior parish relief. To these were to be added all who
Mt i,tied support from charitable institutions ; so that when
ia4;°nour and dignity of the country was talked of, it le-
those who used the expression to show that honour
t
dignity were net supported at the expense of what
ti°,t to he much dearer—the mere necessaries of life for
"
The
orders.
House then resolved itself into the
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
t r G. CLERK rose for the purpose of detailing the
sLnos for the Naval Service in the present year. It
0t4,,14, atbe recollected, that in the early part of the Session,
IV half the sum to be required had been voted, under
nek:lPectation that the Finance Committee would soon
,i_lta Report, regulating the expenditure of the differ-
tit:Partments. The labours of that body having been
i'allY extended, it had become necessary to call for the
of the money ; and it was proposed only to
t° the balance of the Estimates, as originally laid upon
table. Hence he should secure the acquiescence of the
Ipkstriber for Wareham (Mr. Calcraft), who had said
,505411 e should not object to vote the sum remaining due
14,, the Estimates some months since laid upon the table.
544- he was
of seamen and marines way thirty thousand,
Wae sure no man who had turned his attention to
tac'tdijeet would wish that number reduced. Although the
vi4(*l wee at peeve with all the world, yet its commerce
eit„seread to every corner of the world. In many parts of the
tai serious disturbances prevailed, and a large naval
4,tle 'vas therefore necessary for the protection of our
isea'' independent of the depredations to which it had
les,',lexPosed in the Levant and the West Indies. He be-
-11,,4'4; it was unnecessary for him to go further upon this
because in the various discussions,
4,1 d lie the numbe too reat, ex-
not a single Mein-
,FVeug thestet enlon.that Memberought the
fur Montrose,r who,g as usual,
tie Illsieten upon the naval establishment of 1792. When
"°n• Alderman (Waithrnan) expressed his surprise at
IyycCon to the naval force since 1817, he seemed to
t(i that a 044 st
complaint had actually been made in this house
Admiralty for net keeping an adequate
•,),'n the West Indies In the East of Europe, and
tune cause, it h. asl also. had been necessary to
Nip o additional number of ships of war;
.e.x.a-
N,enuarkets opened to our commerce in South Nit
,flreluired protection. The Hon. Member for Montro.se
10,1,41 Plained that he saw no disposition to economise
411e4" the amount of the Estimates of last year. Although
I%kt:rue that the amount of force was the same, yet the
11.)()141
-,,0f expense had been reduced no less than
ja•-;•! which reduction had a certain bearing on all
het nhelarneuts, and showed that the utmost exertions
n used to resort to every practicable saving. On
th,euunt he (Sir G. Clerk) was satisfied that nothing
ta- tu'it rigid economy could make the money voted
141eie,-i the purpose for which it was intended. The
-s'efa: saving had been made in the Dock-yards, by
1-"Nri- the wages for the labour of artificers, and the
h„tt stores. On these heads a saving of 150,000/.
effected; but on the other hand, there bad been
'aset4 itorease in the department of transports, which
PP,l*.`l3o,otolle actual saving to the amount he had n. lens tioned
tai °l' The amount of transports required must
"vica uPon the demands of other branches of the public
°l' the 44'1 a larger number than usual had been required
'tjulte take:„4,eYance of convicts to New South Wales. The
he "n „;'"at year for this purpose had been too small by
4t a014.` about 28,0001. The Committee was aware
,sated se: very extensive works were still in progress, con-
, ill se:
e Lir naval establishment ; and with any regard
;.usPndvd.'"bi of the country, they could not be entirely
;chiken for
th The smallest possible suns had, however, been
"e great em
; but it would be evident that some of
eilPoxen t tlodertakings—such sea-walls, which were
eLUgth oe tQI daily risk, could not be abandoned for any
anewerinrue• Reserving to himself, therefore, the right
fouled uulv g any observations upon the separate votes, lie
r'4 auvabgf the first Resolution, observing, however, that
01 men voted iu February was only for six

unar, instead of six calendar months, which rendered it
necessary that, on the present occasion, they should be
voted for the remaining seven lunar months of the year.
The first Resolution was in these terms :—" That 30,000
men be granted for the sea-service for seven lunar months,
commencing on the 18th of June, 1828, including 9,000
-Royal Marines."
Sir 11. PARNELL—When he last spoke it was in his
capacity of Chairman of the Committee of Finance : he
now appeared in his own character—that of an individual
Member of Parliament. He felt no disposition, under the
circumstances of the country, to resist the vote for the num-
ber of men stated in the Resolution ; but if it were pro-
posed as the final peace establishment of the country, he
should decidedly object to it. The present was not the fit
time fur going into the whole question, nor did he think
that any correct standard could be arrived' at by referring
back to former periods of perfectly undisturbod tranquillity.
There was one part of the service in which lie was of opi-
nion that a reduction might properly be made. In the
course of the inquiries of the Committee of Finance, the
expediency bad-been taken into consideration of continuing
the Coast Blockade, and from the evidence taken, he, for
one, hail arrived at the conclusion that it might be dis-
pensed with.--.—(Lourl cries of Hear, hear.)—The object
of preventing smuggling, it had been also shown, was suffi-
ciently secured by the Preventive Service, and by the other
existing arrangement; and as 2,700 men were employed
on the Coast Blockade, he should propose an amendment
to effect a reduction to that extent. These men were
quite independent of any consideration of the defence of the
country and its trade. The lion. Baronet had men-
tioned a reduction of 130,0001. in the estimates of the
present year; but he (Sir 11. Parnell) found that there
was no reason for placing much reliance on the continu-
ance of that reduction. It appeared in evidence before the
Finance Committee, that it had been accomplished in a
great degree by lessening the purchase of stores, the de-
ficiency in which must necessarily be made good at some
future period: So far the reduction was fallacious, and not
substantial and bona
fide; and even the saving of
130,000/. could not be calculated upon for next year. As
lie could establish the fact on evidence that could not be
disputed, no great merit was due to the Government for
this temporary and "inconsiderable diminution of expence.
The reasons for the increase in the Transport Service had
not been stated, and there were great objections to the
mariner in which the Navy Board provide transports.—
Whenever stores were to be sent abroad, instead of going
into the market and hiring transports, they employed their
own, which were made part of the establishment, and cost
the country a much larger sum than it ought to do. It
might be said that by employing its own transports, the
Navy Board obtained greater si curity for the stores ; but
the answer to that remark yips, that the most valuable
merchandize was sent to all part; of the world in such vessels.
As other opportunities for discussion would arise, he would
not enter further into the snhject at present; but merely
move as an Amendment, in order to put an end to the Coast
Blockade, that the vote of 30,000 men be reduced to
28,000 men.

The question having beeu put upoe the Amendment,
Sir J.YORKE should merely confine himself to the pro-
position of the Chairman of the Finance Committee to
reduce the vote under consideration 'by 2,000 men, a re-.
duction which he should oppose. He was convinced that
if occasion should arise we ought to have the means of
fitting out two or three line of battle ships in order to give
weight to any representations we might deem it necessary
to make.—The Finance Committee might have done its
duty, and done it well--but it was his opinion, that Go-
vernment had concurred in its appoiutuaent not so much
from any expectation of service to the country froth it, as
to answer some other purpose. It was on the subject of
our shipping, however, that he intended to trouble the
Committee with a few observations; and he should in the
first instance state, that it appeared to hint a most ex-
traordinary fact, that two or three experimental squadrons
bad been built, fitted out, and employed : and that, the
command of the different vessels had been confided to the
very officers under whose directions they had beta con-
structed—each of whom, in fact, jockied his own horse.
(A laugh.) It was extraordinary, that no report of the
results had been made by those officers; he hoped, there-
fore, that the Lord High Admiral would give directions
to have that omission supplied. Another question to which
he should apply himself, respected the manner in which
the employment of officers was conducted. The first
paragraph of the Order of Council of the 18th of July,
1827, signed with the revered name of " J. W. Croker,"
(A laugh)—stated that Captains should be deemed eligible
to promotion if they should have served in that capacity
for a period of four years in the time of war—of five years
in time of war and peace altogether—or of six years in
time of peace. It appeared to hint extraordinary and ob-
jectionable, therefore, that the merits and character of the
whole of the Captains o. `the Navy should be decided on by
the Council of the Lord High Admiral. Now, there were
eight hundred captains on the list, and fifty ships only in
commission—so that the Committee would see, that a great
number of years must elapse before those officers could
qualify for promotion.—(The Hon. and Gallant Member
here referred to the case of an officer, a captain, whose
commission, as such,- was dated the 27th of April, 1801,
who bad not, by five mouths, completed the term of ser-
vice required by the Order of Council to qualify him for
promotion.)--The Hon. and Gallant 'Member concluded
by giving his support to the original vote, and expressing
his hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, would proceed in a fair open course—
that he would nut mystify hie accounts and documents, and
that his balance sheet would appear to advantage, when
compared with those of his predecessors.
Sir G. COCKBURN rose to answer the questions put
by the Hon. Member who had spoken on the Committee.
With respect to the statement of the Hon. Baronet (Sir
H. Parnell) he felt under considerable difficulty, as he was
sure the House did likewise, in consequence of the Hon.
Baronet's having used the statement made before, and the
partial opinions of the Finance Committee, as grounds for
his motion. (Hear, hear.) But when the Hon. Baronet
had not stated that the opinion he had expressed was that
of the great majority of the Finance Committee, and when
he (Sir George Cockburn) recollected the evidence lie had
himself given•before that Committee, lie felt very awkward
in attempting to answer in that House objections founded
on what was known only to himself and to the Members of
the Finance Committee (Hear, hear.) He thought the
Hon. Members who came into that House with the mi-
nutes of the Finance Committee in their hands, came
prepared, and acted in a manner wholly unexpected, which
put it out of the power of others to meet them in argument
who were not similarly prepared. He felt obliged, there-
fore, to throw himself on the mercy of the House of Com-
mons, and called upon its men-deers to say, had he not been
placed in a very unfair position by the course followed by
the lion. Baronet? (Hear, hear.) The HMI. Baronet
came forward and said, in fact, " I, as Chairman of the Fi-
nance Committee, have had evidence given before me on
which I have made up my mind that such and such a
course is expedient." Now this. .he (Sir G. Cockburn)
would say was unfair—(Hear.)---He had given to the
Finance Committee all the information in his power, the
particulars of which he did not recollect, and now the
Honourable Chairman of that Committee came down
with those documents in his hands, and made a proposition
for reducing the Estimates?—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon.
Baronet kad confined himself to the Blockade Service.
There could be no doubt, as lie (Sir G. Cockburn) had
said before the Committee, that smuggling might he kept
down by the Custom-house officers and the men of the
Preventive S-tivice, somewhat cheaper than the duty was
now performed. lint he had told the Committee, that he
considered that force of vital importance to the country.
He had explained in his evidence, that it had preserved us
from great charge, ire
fitting out two or three armaments.
When asked by
a - a-s-
-ember of the Committee whether it Was
riot very expensive, he had referred to the expences of
the Spanish and Russian armaments in 1790 and 1791,
which had cost the country a much greater sum than
any of similar magnitude since. The Coast Blockade,
he was satisfied, did essential service in the protec-
tion of the Revenue ; and in the main they would be
found a great saving instead of a loss. What enabled the
Government now, in the present aspect of affairs, to avoid
than ofi the
se
au increase of our naval force ? He was not in the Cabinet,
and could not pretend to knotvn the
there rest
not in a
perfectly quiet
he might safely say, mare
that tli
eve
quiet state; arid should we remain so, if these
2,000 men were taken away, the immediate consequence
would be that we should put more ships into commission.
At present, our sitips were in perfect condition, and there
was a sufficient number of marines ashore to put into the
cothey s
twßelroeckataldoca tas, if
at Islyt woefrsei
nsok
ships the momentrinst
He regarded t
ing food
for the Navy, which enabled us to reantad the carne waginquisetarn
lts•attchlsi,
passing events. He was quite sure, n
opinion of other officers, that this was a highly useful and
valuable force. He had stated so in his evidence before
the Committee, and he should therefore give his opposition to
the proposed reduction. The next point to which he should
advert, was a remark that fell from the Hon. Baronet rela-
tive to a charge which more properly belonged to another
part of the Estimates. The Hon. Baronet supported Lis
attack as before, by stating he had evidence which proved
that the reduction in the wages of the artificers) was falla-
cious, because it had lint been adhered to. Now lie (Sir
G. Cockburn) utterly denied that statement. It only
showed that it was impossible, if the Committee went on
.• •
as they were now doing, to carry on any discussions in

that House on these subjects. The Hon. Baronet said he
had evidence before the Committee which warranted his
assertion. For one, he (Sir G. Cockburn) must say that
he did not knew what evidence the Committee had on this
or any other point, except what lie had given himself ;
but it was his duty to declare, that the statement of the
Hon. Baronet was wholly incorrect. The fact was, that
the condition of the fleet was so complete that we had more
workmen than were necessary to keep the vessels in their
proper state. The question then was, whether they should
reduce the number of the shipwrights who had served the
country so long, or keep them in employtnent on reduced
wages? It was decided to reduce them one day a week.
He would not stop tie argue whether this was a wise or
unwise measure ; but by reducing the time they worked,
Government did not use so many stores, nor lay out sa
much in payment of wages to the workmen. If war should
come on the country, another course would be n'tsces-
sary ; but as far as human foresight could reach, the Navy
would not suffer for want of any increase of workmen in
this department if it arose. He desired to know from the
Hon. Baronet who had given the evidence on which lie
relied as to this point. He called on the Hon. Baronet to
bring it forward, and let the House argue the subject fairly.
—The Hon. Baronet, by his present conduct, threw the
House into the greatest difficulties. It was not fair that
the Hon. Baronet and other Members of the Finance Com-
mittee should found statements on the evidence of
which they had exclusive possession. None of us, said the
Gallant Admiral, who have given evidence before the Com-
mittee, nor the other. Members of the House, know what
that evidence is. If the person be not present to contra-
dict the mis-statement of his evidence, a false impression is
made on the House. If the Hon. Baronet will say that on
any one point the Finance Committee is agreed, I should be
satisfied ; but to read parts of the evidence is undoubtedly
most unfair.—(Cheers). I wili now answer the questions
put to rue by my Honourable raid Gallant Friend (Sir J.
Yorke.) First, as to the experimental squadron ; it is most
true that we have taken considerable pains in endea-
vouring to improve the model and principle of our ship-
ping ; and I am nappy to state, that our efforts to build
ships of a different construction have been attended with
the most beneficial results. Formerly, sloops of war used
to be beaten in sailing by frigates. Now it is otherwise.
I sin not prepared to.say whose principle ix exactly the best;;
because the vessels, in their trials of skill, had such different
advantages; but I pledge myself that on the whole there
is an immense improvement. All the new sloops beat the
frigates on the old construction ; and they are the beat
ships on the stations to which they have been sent out. I
honestly confess I am not able to assign any particular rea-
son why a report on this subject has not been brought
down to this House. It is not the practice, when the
Admiralty launches a new vessel, to send down a report
how it sails. If my Gallant Friend wishes for a report,
he may have it; but it would be something novel to
make a report of the proceedings of an experimental
squadron. But I have not the slightest difficulty in
stating that the success of the experiment is decided.
Nor was it wantonly made; nar has the country been
put to any expense by it. These ships were wanted,
and they must have been built on the old plan, if this
experiment had not been successfully made, With respect
to the order for regulating the promotion of Flag Officers,
I will endeavour to state what I have to say briefly and
clearly. It WUa the original practice of the Navy Board to
sleet such Captains to be appointed Admirals as the Ad-
miralty pleased. While that rule existed my Hon. and
Gallant Friend was promoted ; and the Admiralty was not
then in such had odour with him as it is at the present
day. About the year 1744 or 1745, I am not sure which,
a certain degree of dissatisfaction was shown, in conse-
quence of some officers, who had served gallantly in the
preceding Spanish war, being passed over in the promo-
tion that followed, and younger officers being made flag
officers over their heads, under whom they were obliged
still to serve as Captains. In consequence of a remon-
strance from these officers, an order was passed by the
King in Council, by which it was declared that all officers
who had served gallantly against the enemy in that parti-
cular war should not be passed over, but that they should
be made retired AdmiraLs, or Yellow Admirals, as they
are called in the Navy. This continued to be the law
for SO years, by which time there was nobody left
alive who had served during that war. Then a second
Order in Council was issued, which extended to any
officer who had served well during any war preceding
his promotion. By this order they could not be passed
over, but were also entitled to the yellow flag. So the law
stood up to the other day; and on it the Admiralty had
acted during the last forty years. In Lord Howe's time
some discussions took place respecting the cases of some
officers who had been passed over ; and ever since that
period the Admiralty, as a boon to the service, held these
officers not only entitled to the yellow flag, but to be made
active officers, if they Lad served in any way during the
preceding war, From this time, only those who had not
been in active service had the yellow flag. Under this re-
gulation sometimes very extraordinary hardships were in-
flicted. In a recent promotion there were instances in
which officers, who had served a week or ten days in the
preceding war, were promoted to active flags, though ab-
solutely bed-ridden, while some other officers who had
served in rated line-of-battle ships in action, not having had
the command of one during the last war, were passed over
in favour of the man who had hoisted his pennant for a
week. Another evil attended the principle of this Order
in Council, the words of which applied only to commands
" in the next preceding war." When this country went
to war fur six months with Algiers, that event excluded
every body from promotion, but the officers who were
employed during these six months. Indeed, the order
was altogether eo open to objection, that it could
not be acted on. It was, therefore, thought proper to
alter it. The good principle on which all those regulae
tions were founded, was that no man could be deemed fit
and capable to command a fleet who had not previously
commanded a line of battle ship for some time during the
war. What was done was with a view to ameliorate the
rule of promotion by placing it on the most fair and rea-
sonable principles. In. every rank, a certain service is
deemed requisite to entitle the officers to ascend to a higher
station. It was hardly to be expected that a Post Captain,
who had remained at his country-house, and taken no share
in the toils and perils of war, should be promoted to a
flag which he would only bring into difficulty and disgrace.
It was considered by the Lord High Admiral in Council,
which would be the best course to pursue ; and it was
finally decided, that the person who had commanded a ship
of the line for a certain time, four years in war, six years
in peace, or five years in war and peace together, should
be entitled to a flag. Whether the term be judged too much
or too little, the principle is evidently fair and reasonable.
With respect to the officers to whose cases some allusion
had been made, I have a few remarks to offer. The House
is aware, that though the Peace of Amiens was signed, the
fleet was never completely peid off; and the war came
again so quickly on us, that it could scarcely be reckoned a
real bona fide peace. My Gallant Friend may remark,
that the Admiralty, to which he then belonged, insisted
that that peace was sufficient to exclude the officers from
promotion, when the new war commenced. But when
the case of these officers was considered before the Lord
High Admiral, it was thought too much that these gallant
officers should be deprived by the Peace of Amiens of what
they were otherwise entitled to. His Majesty, therefore,
has been graciously pleased to allow au Order in Council,
that for this purpose, the Mu wars should be considered as
oue. As to the last point made by my Gallant Friend,
who says, " there are eight hundred Captains on the list,
how can you expect them to sail with fifty ships of the
line, to serve the required terms of four, five, and six years,
My Gallant Friend, in this triumphant case, he supposes
lie is making out, forgets the stock ou hand. I have
looked over the list carefully, and I find that inure than
two-thirds are already qualified.—(Hear, hear.) With
respect to the Officer, who my Gallant Friend apprehended
would be passed over, as being within five months of the
required service, I may state, that as my Gallant Friend
did not name him, I cannot be sure the case I am referring
to is the same ; but an officer so situated as my Gallant
Friend described, I have written to myself, by direction of
the Lord High Admiral, asking him whether, with refe-
rence to his state of health, he would prefer an active flies,
or to be appointed a Captain of Greenwich Hospital.
He has preferred the latter; there is therefore no in-
justice there.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) A better rule
than the present cannot, I think, be established; nor do I
see what other course can be taken, unless we
resolve that every officer who becomes a Post Captain,
shall become an active flag officer. Rut I believe that this
is a principle too evidently
,mischievous for any Member of
this House to support.—(Cheers.)
Admiral EVANS was one of those who had been cha-
racterised by the Noble and Gallant Member as a Yellow
Admiral. Now perhaps it might not be generally known
to the House that the term Yellow Admiral implied a state
of punishment, and he—
Sir G. COCKBURN Lad merely used the word in its
sense, without meaning to cast the slightest relive-
familiar
tion upon any person whatever.
Admiral EVANS would not, in that case, say a word
more on the subject, He begged the attention of .the lion.
Member to the situation of youths entering the navy.
When a gentleman sent his son into the service, they all
knew the long probation he must undergo before he eould
have any chance of attaining the object of his desires—a
flag appointment. Unless he had great interest, it would
require years of perseveratsee before a yottn4 wart breueht

himself within the possibility of being posted. They Ind
been asked, what right a man bad to expeet to be made
an Admiral, because he came to be a Post Captain? He
meant to say, that his years of long and faithful service
entitled him to it. There was not one officer out of five,
he believed he might say ten, who ever attained the rank
of Post Captain ; but having once attained that rank,
after having served as Lieutenant and Commander with un-
blemished characters—he did not mean to say that that was
not an absolute requisite—he had a right to look forward
to his services being honourably rewarded by a flag.-,-
(Hear, hear.)—lle bad not the slightest doubt of his
Royal Highness the Lord High Admiral's inclination to
benefit the service, and trusted he would do it, by some
means or other altering or modifying the orders in Council
which bad bad so great an effect in producing. its present
discouraging state. He believed that the whole service
looked up to his Royal Highness for prot.ction, and he, for
one, with the greatest respect, looked up to him to Protect
them from the effect of vacillating Orders in Council.—
( Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP—The Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir
G. Cockburn) had complained of the Hon. Baronet's (Sir
H. Parnell) making use of the information be had ac-
quired in the Finance Committee iu that House; but he
should like to knoW what was the use of obtaining inform-
ation if it was not to be made use of. (Hear, hear.) For
his part be felt himself completely justified in stating his
opinion on any point that might come before the House
upon information he might receive in that Committee.
His lion. Friend had proposed to reduce the number of
men employed nu the coast blockade service, but the Go..
vernmentwished to retain them, on two grounds—on the
ground that they were useful to the revenue service, and
is a reserve for manning the fleet. He would look at them
in both these points of view. Looking at them as re-
garded the collection of the revenue, he thought that the
employment of two species of force, one under the com-
mand of the Admiralty and the other of the Board of
Customs, highly objectionable. Jealousies between the
two must be the natural consequence. He thought there-
fore that the force designed for the protection of the re-
' venni ought all to be under the Board appointed for that
purpose, which would be one means of the force employed
on shore getting most hearty assistance in the way of in-
formation from those at sea. Where A jealousy subsisted
there would be no cordial co-operation. With regard to
the other point, which looked upon this body of men as a
reserve from whence to man the fleet, he did not mean to
deny they could be so made use of; but he believed, from
the best informati'on he had been able to collect upon the
subject, that there could not be a worse school of disci-
pline for officers than to be thus stationed on shore. Nei-
ther were the men themselves so well disciplined as could
be wished.

Sir G. COCKBURN said something which we under-
stood to be in explanation of a former statement, but it was
in too low a voice to reach us.

Lord ALTHORP resumed.—Whatever might be the
case with the officers, he knew that the men who had been
drawn from that service had not, generally speaking, been
approved of by the officers who had received them on board.
Upon both of these grounds, therefore, he was inclined to
support the motion of his Hon. Friend for the reduction.

CROKER said that with respect to what the Noble
Lord had said relative to the jealousy existing between the
Coast Blockade and the Preventive Service he was quite
mistaken. They had not the occasion to come in contact
which the Noble Lord seemed to think they had, to excite
such jealousy. The Coast Blockade Service began at the
river Thames and went along the coast as far as Chichester,
he believed, where the Preventive Service began, so that it
was only where the points met that there could arise the
least possible dispute, and even if there were any there,
and he was not aware of them if there were, they could
have no influence on the great line of the coast. The Noble
Lord seemed to give a preference to the Preventive Service,
because it could communicate with the shore, and give as-
sistance in the prevention of smuggling. But the Noble
Lord did not seem to remember that King's ships were
employed in the Preventive Service, and that often very
effectually too. But this was a point of preference
which be considered of no great consequence, for both
the Preventive Service and the Coast Blockade could and
would act upon any information that might reach them.
He did not mean to say that he thought it a very good
school for othcers who were to go to sea, but it would not
Le well on that account to throw them overboard at once ;
booides, it must be remembered, that the officers of the
Preventive Service were draWn flout the Royal Navy. The
applying the men as a body of reserve was spoken of the
men alone, and not of the officers, and whatever it might
be as a school for them, it was better than to be thus re-
maining idle. This service was so much additional em-
ployment found for them. With respect to the men, he
had the best reasons for believing that they were not so bad
as the Noble Lord seemed to believe; at any rate be
thought it must be allowed that they were better than any
equal number of new raised men.—(Hear, hear. )—When,
a short time back, a large draft of them was made to man
the guard-ships sent to Lisbon, their Captains had, some
of them, been so pleased with their conduct, that they
asked to have them made a part of their ship's complement,
which the Admiralty was inclined to allow. Ile begged
the House not to run away with the notion that it would
be economical to diminish this vote. If the navy
were deprived of this depot it would be the duty
of the Admiralty to full man the guard-ships, which
would be two thousand men, equally expensive to the
public, without rendering the slightest service. This,
too, would be exclusive of the force that it would
be found necessary to substitute for them, whilst, at pre-
sent, he did nut think they were a touch greater ex-
pense than that new force alone would be. (!tear, hear,
hear.) He would tell the Noble Lord, moreover, that had it
not been for the resource the Admiralty had in the Coast
Blockade men, press-warrants must have been issued to
send the expedition to Portugal, in the same manner as
we did in the time of the Spanish armament, That was
a permanent addition to the national expenses, which he
thought it strange the Noble Lord should have advocated.
—(Hear.)
Mr. MABERLY—He was surpriasd at the Gallant
Admiral opposite having complained so much of the
iq-
formation obtained in the Finance Committee having been
made use of in that House. lie was the more surprised
at it, for more candid, full, and fair evidence, had not
been given before the Committee than that they had had
from the Gallant Admiral himself.

Sir G. COCKBURN was understood to say, that he
had not objected to the information obtained in the Com-
mittee being made tiqe of, but to its being stated that this
was in evidence, and that in evidence. It was the mode
in which the informaticn was made use of that he thought
objectionable,

Mr. MAI3ERLY would avoid then, if possible, saying
where he got his information. But in coming to a deci-
sion upon the Estimates., as a Member of the House,' it
was almost impossible to avoid alluding to the evidence ob.
ta;ned as Members of the Finance Committee. It was a
difficulty in which the Members of that Committee found
themselves, but which he had foreseen and communicated
to his colleagum indeed, he considered Mernhers were
bound to bring into a discussion of this kind all the in-
formation they had. The public benefit expected it of
them. The Hon. Gentleman who had brought this sub-
ject forward, had taken credit to himself for the saving of
labour he had effected ; but 'he did not think he deserved
that credit, According to the accounts they had heard given
there, there would be no occasion for half the labour the
Estimates had provided for, and yet being able to make
this great saving, credit was claimed for the small reduc-
tion that had been made. They would not want any build-
repair. He condemned the Right Hon. Gentle-
mg. at all it appeared, but only enough men to keep the
innaaviyi, itlierefore, with not having made a greater saving.
I
It was clear we did not want themwhy then,
he asked,
were they kept? Because, it was answered, we
might want them; but when? Would it be to-morrow or next •
day, or in a year to come ? Nobody could say when.—
Why, then, should they be burdened with a useless expense
for an indefinite period of time? With respect to the
30,000 men now proposed to be voted for the navy, he
had vet beard nothing from the other side of the House that
justified their keepiug up so large a face. when we were
not in a state of war. The lion. Chairman of the Com-
mittee had formed his judgment of the facts that came
within his knowledge, and so had he (Mr. Maberly) of
those that came within his; and, looking at these filets, he
thought himself hound to resist so large a grant. I was
very well for Hon. Gentlemen who placed their whole con-
fidence invariably on Ministers, and who thought they
had always some good reason for what they did, to agree
without demur to this vote ; but it was for the House ge-
nerally to consider of the facts before them before they pro-
ceeded to vote upon any measure. The Government might
have information of which he was not aware that might
make 30,000 men necessary; but they, who had not such
information of the prospect of war or peace, were found
looking at what they knew to vote for the reduction that
had been proposed.

Sir E:KNATCHBULL thought the discussion upon
this question would have proceeded On fairer grounds if
such direct allusion had not been made to the evidence
taken before the Finance Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—lt
was utterly impossible for the Chairman of that Committee
to state opinion upon this subject without giving it
something of the appearance of authority. lie must,
however, protest against lily opinion being taken in that

light. The Gallant Admiral on the other side the
House, as well as the other Members of the Government,
had given their evidence with the greatest fairness and
with the most honourable intentions. Now, he put it to
lion. Members, whether the course that had that night
been taken, would not possibly induce a greater cautious-
ness in evidence of future witnesses.. He pressed, there-
fore, upon the consideration of the Hon. Baronet, the fair-
ness and policy of thus taking advantage of the evidence
taken before the Committee.—(llear, hear, hear.)—Hon.
Members must consider, besides, that it was not the evi-
dence they gave the House, but their opinions upon it.—
(Hear, hear.)—With respect to the proposal before the
House of reducing the grant of men by upwards of 2,000,
he must say that be should be glad to do it if it could he
done consistently with prudence. Without having any
particular information, but merely looking to the general
aspect of affairs, he should not think it wise to make any
reduction in the naval force just at presen'.—(Hear, hear.)
—I-le did not think a regard for so trifling an expenre
would justify them in the dismissal of so efficient a body of
men.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CURTEIS had not coy information beyond what
was possessed by every other Member of that House, but
thought with the Hon. Baronet who had just spoken, that
looking at the state of Eurcpe in general, it wouldi? -"-
wise in the Government to weaken the Naval force.; .They
might shortly be called upon to raise 10,000 men, instead
of dismissing -2,000. With r,spect to the Coast Blockade
Service, he knew that for two miles along:the coast of!
Kent, where he kad an estate,:there were nothing but mar-
tello towers,—(A laugh.)—and the system, as far as the
prevention of smuggling was concerned, answered very
well; for although a battle occurred snore than once be-
tween the officers and the smugglers, yet he believed
smuggling was carried on to a much less extent than for-
merly. Whether it was a good or had service for any other
purposes, he could not pretend to say.

- Mr. BERNAL understood from officers connected with
the service that the Coast Blockade system was not at all
calculated to raise the character of the Navy; on the con-
trary, the transactions in which he was informed the men
were sometimes necessarily engaged tended to degrade the
feelings of the British sailor. It had been said that these
two thousand men formed a good corps de reserve, but as
there was a diversity of opinions upon that point, he
thought the fact he had stated ought to have great weight
in inducing the House to reduce this particular body of
men. In supporting the motion for this reduction, how-
ever, he did not mean to say that 28,000 or 29,000
men was sufficient for his Majesty's service. All 1w
meant to do was, to express his opinion of the Coast
Blockade system.

Mr. CALCRAFT—Those who proposed the reduction
of these men ought to consider that they were merely em-
ployed upon this service until they were wanted elsewhere.
--(lieu.) The Government told them that 30,000 men
were absolutely neesmary for the service, and that if they
did not continue this force they must man the guard-ships.
—(Hear, hear)—which would come to the same thing as
to the number of men, but would give HS so many idle
instead of employed.—(Hear.) How did the Finance
Gentlemen enlighten the house? On every point they
and the Government Gentlemen contradicted each other.
It was singular that the Finance Members had given in no
report ; yet they came down to pronounce opinions to in •
fluence the House. As to the amendment, he did not
think the Government could reduce one man. They were
not to anticipate war, but to avert it. He should most
cheerfully vote for the 30,000 men asked by the Go-
vernment.

Sir 11. PARNELL thought, that reports of the Finance
Committee might be given too hastily. What good resulted
from the early reports of the Finance Committee of 1817 ?
None; they merely assisted the temporary purposes of the
Government of that day. In giving his opinion he only
spoke as an individual, and nut with a wish to influence

the House in his character of Chairman of the Committee.
Had he not a right to act here on the evidence he had heard
elsewhere ? He thought he had, and would persevere
using that information. The Gallant Admiral had ad-
mitted, that the blockade service was not necessary to put
down smuggling, So far his assertion had been confirmed
by the Gallant Adrairal ; with that conviction be propcsed
the reduction of the Naval forr•e,-
Sir GEORGE COCKBETRT stated, tbat lo evidence
he said that smuggling could be put down otherwise than
by the Coast Blockade; by the Custom-house, for instance,
but not so efficiently as by the Coast Blockade ; but he had
also said, that the chief value of that body was the facility
they afforded of supplying deficiencies in times of einee-
gency.

- Mr. HUME thought it extraordinary that any objection
could be made to a Member giving his opinion on this sub-
ject, because he belonged to the Finance Committee and
had derived his information from the evidence taken before
that Committee. It was usual with Members of the Go-
vernment when they moved an augmentation of the naval
force, to state the reasons and the purpose of them. The
expenditure of last year, 10,000,000/, for the army, and
6,500,000/. for the navy, were too much for the country.
The reason the Finance Committee made no report was,
that they had not yet gene through the subject. Why
should England exhaust her resources now in the time of
peace, and thus disable herself against exertion in time
of war. Every other country of Europe was rrelucing its
force, so ought we. We had 10,000 men more in the
navy than we wanted. If he thought the navy as a defen-
sive force could not be safely reduced, he should never vote
the reduction of a man. It was impossible for any ntan
to say that all the ships of war now scattered over
the world were necessary to our commerce, or our de-
fence. The United States had not one-tenth of our Navy,
yet their commerce was as safe us our;. The t united
• States were wisely husbanding their resources in peace to
meet the exigencies of war. Twenty thousand seamen
would be quite sufficient for our necessity. Three or foot
thousand marines might also be safely reduced. If Mem-
bers would persist it; leaving these matters to the Govern-
ment, the sooner the Members left the House and shut up
the House the better—it would be better than to have such
a House of Commons as the present was. He would rather
shut up the Holm, and have but one responsible Minister,
than have a House of Cominons that took off all responsi-
bility from the Ministers. The Ministers were not more
responsible than himself; not so much, for he was respon-
sible to his constituents. He did not object to the pro-
posed vote as a war establishment, though be did disap-
prove it as a peace establishment.

Sir C. COLE bore testimony to the efficiency, the
courage, and abilities of the Officers of the Coast
Blockade. If be got the command of a line-of-battle ship,
he would feel great confidence in having 100 men of that
service. The lion. Member for Sttssexl4d attested the
general good conduct of the men. He was surprised to
hear of a reduction, in the present state of Europe. He
should heartily vote for the present estimate.
Sir JOHN BERESFORD thought the naval force
ought to be kept at a rate necessary to support ON huAtour
of England. He could not consent to 4 dirnintiticlti of the
present force,
2ir J. GRAHAM could not vote for the reduction of
the Naviio
giitlivseepatrlne;ounpgtihn,tiloelntileteaoteflltlhsiitetdursatoetliriotsri:aa(l. t eldt si
conditionenl )o'
tioonrr
ottliteis,
thn
e-
was moving her army, and that France was
ptecloirliaelniptrilantrrgy Russiang an armament. If we reduce tie Navy we de-
prive England of her right r.;•tp, rind disable her Alinisters
from preset isig the peace of Europe. Under those cir-
cumstances he could not consent to reduce the number of
seamen.

Sir J. BRYDGES opposed the Amendment.
The Amendment way then put, and negatived tvithnt a
division, and the original motion eat vied. •

The sum of 514,5001. for prOvisianz, was then voted,
and 336,0001. for wages,
On the Estimata of 80,323/. 15s. 9d. for the Salaries of
the Officers of the Admiralty and Navy Pay Office, for the
year 1828,

Sir J. YORKE asked whether it was still the intention
of Government to continue the unnet,essary establishment
of the Paymaster of Marines, together with his eight clerks.
Sir •• G. CLERK stated that tkere was quite labour
enough for the persons in that office, arid that the duty Wa,
very ably performed. He was sure that any change in this
department would produce no saving to the country.
Mr. HUME hoped the Government would abolish the
Navy Pay Office altogether, without waiting far the Report
of the Finance Committee.
Sir G. CLERK, in answer to the lion. Member for
Montrose, thought it was not possible to conduct the pay'
business with a less expensive machinery ; at all eFverntasncie
could not be done without previous inquiry
Committee. As for the Paymaster of Widob,Yc;'hePenioainisci
who disbursed annually 120,000/. in very s_":,a,llll,sumo,
moreover,
lee numerous pensioners, with many of
lii-eyehaard
nt.oasni
surelyaint
trie
,arthe chargent of 500/.,
Sir JOHN BERESFORD bore testimony to the great
merits of the Paymaster of Marines, without whose mi_
cent services that beautiful corps could not have existed in
its present perfection.
ainlitatleenfloTressrchndaendee;
which Government showed to make reductions in establish_
Mr. MABERLY complained of the little disposition
ments where they were most warmly recommended, and
could be most easily effected. The Paymaster of the Navy,
iu his evidence before the Finance Committee, had ex-
-1,,,,ed an opinion that he could dispense with ten out of
his tifty-two clerks and yet in this vote on account of the ,

-

Pay Office, there was nat the sl:ghtest reflation made or
even hinted at.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
his Hon. Friend (Sir G. C!erk) was 'very unfairly used.
in being obliged to act, not upon the recommendation of
the Finance Committee, but upon evidence given before it,
of which his Hon. Friend could not, strictly speaking, be
supposed to be cognizant. To the very document referred
to by the Hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. :Moberly), was
appended a paragraph to this effect Great inconve-
nience having arisen front the publication of minutes of
evidence taken before the Committees, and of papers laid
before them, it is particularly requested that members re-
ceiving such minutes and papers will be careful that they
be confined to the object for which they are distributed,
which is for the especial use of Members of such Com-
mittees."--(Loud cries of Hear, hear.)—Had his Hon.
Friend proceeded on any other ground, and proposed, be-
fote this part of the labours of the Finance Committee was
closed, any reduction, he would have been open to the
objections of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, who would
have declared that all Lis own better plans of economy had
thus been unwarracntably frustrated by the Government,—
(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME remarked, that it was extremely easy to
reflect upon the Hem. Member for Aberdeen. (Laughter.)
Hume)
He would be much obliged, however, to the Right Hon.
Gentleman to point nut any instance in which he (Mr.
had complained of any reduction of' expenditure_
(A laugh.) Unhappily
the Right Hon. Gentleman had
been very careful never to supply him with any such
ground of complaint. (A laugh.) The Hon. Gentlemen
,ntettenezatt
who bad cheered the Chancellor of the Exchequer's ob-
servation might have 3iad good reason to do so, if there had
been any foundation for it. As there happened to be none,
hreeael•loyultt
nionlyghtle‘avvaes
vtheerym
i stotfhaertilasueglvhe,s.
Mr. MABERLY explained,
be
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appealed
to every Member of the Finance Committee who was pre-
sent, whether almost every proposition which Government
had brought forward in that Committee fora reduction of
expenditure, had not been met by the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen with some expression of astonishment that it
went no further. (Hear, hear, from both sides of the
House.)
Sir .I._ YORKE was of opinion that his Gallant Friend
_ _

(Sir J. Beresford), who had so much eulogised the Pay-
master of Marines (to whose merits he himself also bore!
testimony) had really under-rated the deservings of thc.
officers of that " beautiful corps." Hal he had a voive
at any time in the matter, he should have proprrod
Gallant Friend himself, who hail been a Colonel of I,A3'

rims, ac the fittest person in the world to inspr A ilo in.
He (sir J. Yorke) found that the whole Esau' a, ,i,nr the
Now he did contend that the whole of ;its
,hides, i , stock
:1::: two officers in this ES-
and fluke, might be with great advantagr
: transfertei, 1 to its
Navy Pay-oftice, in all its departments,
—on(cell'ePa:
timl up.—(Hear,
wouldel
ma. —rat t)e—ffin whoiloc (lit.aeenr
'tbldi deal hdde el:sanrar:l.ttaw;elb e2siTkt-a—el forteiethrut eliea
absoluteYP 3i:rtr branch'i-
I sinecures.idi. °l 11us ('tkalil
iolnvngaess.H; e bni i e 1 t ante
the Rear-Admiral and Vice-Admiral of Great Britai n-
Theie appointments shold he abolished. w" 3' ,out :. 10,000 i.
Mr. CROKER had been asked a question by an Hot "
Gentleman about the Board of Longitude. He begged 1
state that he had himself declared, before the Board o t:
Longitude, that if the vote of the Finance Committee
should be unanimous to put down that Beard, they should 3
report specially on the subject with the least possible delay,
in order that the Admiralty might resort to some other
source. fur the information which they had been in the.
habit of obtaining from it...

Mr. VESEYFITZCiF.IIALD observed, that the sa-
lary of the Vice-Admiral of Great Britain was 4691. per
annum, and of the Rear-Admiral 3601. These situations
were respectively filled by Lord Northeek, who was next
in command to Admiral Collingwood at the battle of Tra,
falgar, and by Sir James Saumarei, who was confessedhe
one of the finest afloat who had ever graced the BritiA",
hese L~norars
t‘hVehesan the
lary 01 Housebot
h moofbisge:l,:itvi observed that
et
alelia:toptuot ed to abort
8004 a-year, were held by the companions of Nelson, Who
rr
)I"vitier:l;;A:LoSfiri'ilrli
had fought with him i;tithiettohcvede/(hcatnteleeri:
teG!irPo.Al'eCvfntesleeur!:4,w°llli.t?tivirc.evt'l2iA:°?t°lrde:lelT:riinraoili"
Nlilton, Mr, Crolser, qyd aicr H. Hardinge (the laat named
of whom observed that he could hardly consitler the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer's observation about the paragraph
appended to the report, to be 4 merely technical one, when
he (Sir. H. ff.) had been refused by the Chairman of the
Finance Committee a copy of his own evidence, which ex-
tended through a nine or ten dap.' examination, and which
he had wanted for the exprea:s information of the Master
general of the ordnance), the vote was agreed to. Mr.
Croker further observing, that in respect of the very irre-
gular allusion to evidence taken before a Committee which
had net yet reported, he knew that so far from the head 01.
the Navy Pay Odes concurring about the reduction of Hi,
ten clerks, lie was most o posed to it,
On the resolution for grunting 75,3501. for the Ofßeers'
Expences, &c. of his Majesty's Dock Yards,
Mr. HUME observed that the total amount of this item
was 150,0001. for 1828 ; in 1792 it was only 25,0001.
Was no reduction to lio effected in this vote ? Amain, he
wanted to know, now that steam-vessels were so effectually
employed in carrying up and down rivers, and in and our
of harbours, ships of war, was it intended to keep up the
present number of dock-yards ? In France it was in
curious fact that the charge for the dock-yards, of manage-
ment, including the cost of clerks, overseers, and super-
Lnittiozie.utsligl e:hweraEllnyg,litsih•asdoacsk-oynaerdst,o
as to 14bour. it"::tanstYas-trinreee-tousfoit'ir'
Sir BYAM MARTIN said that it was impossible-
content the Hon. Member for Abeiz!een. Since 1t9.17„
there bad been a reduction of expenditure to the amount
of 51,0001. in the annual charge of salaried persona con-
nected with the Dock-yards, and since 1921, a further re-
duction of 5004 per cnnum.
Mr. MADERLY contended that this statement of the.
coviptroller of the Navy, was no answer to the question c:
his lion. Friend Mr. Hume.

Sir G. CLEM adniiited the importance of effecting es
reduction in the ()barge for dock-yards, and the officers
thereat) hot was convinced at the same time that filo
Committee would feel it to be precisely that sort of east,
in which it was necessary to proceed with the utmost can.
Lion—tha welfare and good establishment of the servie,4
at large being so vitally important to the Lest interests (1.
the country.
A desultory conversation then ensued between Sir .1,
YogiCE and Sir G. COCKBURN, about the building of the
experiment ship Pearl, in a private dock-yard on the coa,,r
of Ls2,ex, Sir Joseph contending, that it was a most incon-
sistent proceeding en the part of the Admiralty to give
such an order to a private concern, at a time when ever)
body was lamenting the little employment to be ohtained
for shipwrights who were being daily discharged from his
Majesty's dock-yards) and Sir G. Cockburn showing that
total amount of dock-
-11 the order had beer. given by the Admiralty
cdhmaritieltoyfwmitahnaagyielele'nttO,
•ess, encourage a builder who had bceu among the most.sum
ha in his attempt to improve the form of our ships, 4104
that if the
upon whose behalf it had been undertaken,
Purl' id not beat every other vessel of her class and ton-.
the party who, nage which could be matched against her,
had recommended this builder to the Admiralty wenLi
take her off the hands of Government upon their own
terrcts.—.( Hear, bear.)
for the fsrmer 31,2147.,
Mr. HUME then contrasted the
yard expenses (salaries of offi" d 1828. In 1792 dm
superintendance, &c,) ig, 1'792 B°,
h In 1828 upwards of 150,0001.
whole charge WF4S 25/3`31 for Plymouth In 179 q the whole charge
Portsmouth 6,126/.
him quote theta
for the latter,
Sir B. MANTIN said the Honourable Gentleman was.
very fond a referring to the estimates for 1792, and in all
35,000 lu liii2S,
the many tin' he had ,done so, be (Sir B. Martin) had
correctly.—(A laugh.) It
did hAPPen, that in the estimates of 1792, which were
. defectively made ate,
eer) 110 I -whatever for .
e tare.
tendance appeared.
never heard

The vote was then carried without a division.
On the question that 245,0001. be voted for the
Wages of the Artificers and others employed in the several
dock-yards,
Mr. MIME contended that some reduction ought to be
made in the amount of this vote.
Sir R. MARTIN said, that every practicable moans
had been adopted, and were now taking effect, for gra-
dually reducing it; first, by reducing the number of arti-
ficers and labourers; secondly, by employing those who
remained for particular days, and paying them for such
days only, so as to distribute the work to be done, though
i,tretlaiesnse(. quantities than fOrmerly, to. all
_the hands which were
i

Sir .J. YORKE did not admire this plan, but thought
it would be much better to pay off at once, and march out
at the Dock-yard-gates, a certain number of these meri-
torious but unfortunate people.
Mr. HUiUE moved that the vote be reduced to 122,500/.
The motion was negatived without a division.
On the motion that 425,783/. be granted to complete
the sum necessary for Umber and building materials,
IllnauaLv and Mr. litrmE opposed the vote, as
being too high for tbe purpose. A stop ought to 14 put

--~_,

o the unnecessary progress of slip-build►ng. Our ships
►ere actually rotting in the Docks.
Sir E. OWEN maintained the necessity of building ships
f war.
Sir H. PARNELL said, that America was always
Placed before them upon every occasion of this kind, and
every species of expense was justified by her example.
Sir E. OWEN observed, that the great extent of our
possessions in every quarter of the globe, and our large
commerce, rendered it absolutely necessary that we should
have ships competent to cope with those of America, or
any other Power, whenever they should encounter them.
Mr. H TIME said there was nothing in the state of the
American navy to frighten this country. America had
but twelve ships, and she had eased building for two years :
mor were any of the States of Europe doing any thing in
that way at present. —The grant was then agreed to.
£25,000 was then voted for Charges of Pilotage.
£5,808 fro• Salaries of Officers in Foreign Yards.
£51,929 for Salaries of the Officers of the Victualling
Yards. _

Mr. HUME complained of the amount of this rote, and
asked what was the charge for flour?
Sir G. CLERK said it was 30,000/., and that it had
been found the best economy to build mills, and enable tVe
Victualling Department to make the seamen's biscuit and
bread, secure from the shameful adulteration practised by
Auden.
After a few words from Mr. MABERLY, the vote was
carried.
.f.. 30,0137 were then granted for the Salaries of the
Naval Medical Establishment, and,
On the motion of Mr. HUME, at twelve o'clock, the
House resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and oh
tained leave to sit again.
On the Order of the Day being read for the House re•
solving itself into Committee upon the Stamps Allowance•
Mr. HUME proposed a clause, that no distributor should
l'ecgv." a greater remuneration than 2-4 per cent.
Mr. DAWSON resisted the amendment ; and eon-
tended that rio portion of the public revenue was collected
at so small an expense as the Stamp Duties.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER followed
Up the arguments of the preceding speaker, and expressed
an earnest hope that the Hon. Member would nut perse-
• vere in pressing his amendment. Rash motions of this
nature might prove eventually more a source of loss than a
saving to the country.
Mr. HUME having expressed his determination to urge
.bis amendment,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the further consideration of the subject be postponed
;Intl': Monday next, which was agreed to.
Adjourned at One o'Clock.

THE COUNTESS OF ESSEX'S CARD PARTY
—On Thurada- evening was attended by—The Bavarian
Mipister, the Dowager Marchioness of SALISUORY, the
Muter of the Rolla, Lady AFFLECK, Mrs. DEERING, Lady
DEERING, Misses I.,LacKwier.i., Mr. and Mrs. PARNTIIER.
Mrs. BIBS, Countess .I.XDOI,Fr, Lady TANCRID, Hon.
tzeneral CAM., Mrs. ARTHUR SLANUOPE, MISS JOWNES.
ARGYLL Rooms.—The last Masquerade for
the season took place at these Rooms last night, it was
not very crowded, but there wag nevertheless a good deal
of company, who amused theinselvas until an early hour
thi. morning. There were a few " droll fellows," and
Mr. \Vizir.; irr's Champaign. added nut a little to the hilarity
cif the evening.

DRURY LANE THEATRE.-MiSg FOOTE
took her benefit at this Theatre last night, and was ap-
plauded throughout her performances by as full a House as
we hate seen for the season. The evening's entertair-
snents eutdisted of " As you like it," with Miss l'oorz
ReKialind ; the " Romp ;" and " Clari," in which, for the
first time in Loudon, she a❑dertook the part of the Maid
tuf Milan.

SQMERSETSIIIRE SOCIETY.---011 Tuesday
last upwards of a hundred of the friends and subscribers to
this most nseful Institution dined at the Albion Tavern,
Aldersgate-street. WILLIAM ASTELL, Esq., M.P., took
the Chair at six o'clock, supported on the right by WlLLtem
DICKENSON, ON., and on tke left by Sir THOMAS LXTH-
ERIDGE, Bart., the two 'Members for the county of Somer-
set. The conviviality of the awning was kept up to a late
,k9ur.

TI-fILONDON HIBERNIAN SOCIETY.
The Anniversary Meeting of this Society was held yester-
day at the Freemasons' Tavern. Soon after 12, the Earl
u3l. 31ouN'Tcasidn. took the Chair, and in an opening ad-
klres., bore testimony to the good etifeeta produced by the
exertions of this Society in many parts of Ireland, of which
be had a personal knowledge. The annual report was
*Len read by the Secretary : it was on the whole satisfac-
tots, in its details, and appealed strongly to the liberality of
the public. After the rest of the usual routine business
bad been gone through, thanks were voted to the Chair-
man, and the Meeting separated.

DESTRUCTION OF THE SOHO FOUNDRY,
T lANCIT:EiTEP., BY Fats —The entire of this very ex-
tensive and raltia.ble foundry, belonging to eairs. PEET,
andrYII.I.IAMS, situate at Ancoats, Manchester, wza totafly
destroyed by fire on Tleusaday evening last. The fire was
discovered between ten anti eleven o'clock, and although
the premises are almost eurawnded by water, the flames
defied every effort to arrest them y .and, in the space of
three hours, reduced the whole pile kuildings, consisting
of the foundry model-rooos, joiners'-shop , Sic., together
with the expensive machinery ;end models, to (4,..‘? common

.......
TILE ADMIRED RESIDEIiCR OF T/IOMAS
NE LL, ESQ• DECVASED, IS THUS DCZCRIBIED BY M.
GIORGE Bodes :—This delightful retreat has been so
long the subject of general commendation, that much of
the difficulty that would otherwise present itself in the en-
deavour to give an adequate description is happily spared.
It was the distinguirdring feature of the vicinage in the
olden time, and when -reihsequently possessed by the late
owner, the high qualifications of Me. SMIRKE were called
into active service. Ilia great keeniue presided over the
east improvement that had been zeiggested, and cense-
quently it would partake of the works of supererogation to
say one word more in its praise. It ie shut put from po-
pular gaze by lofty brick walls; erabosonied in ite,rxtensive
'lasv,ri and beautiful grounds, which are laid oat with infinite
taste, probably the hest couunentary will be found in the
single eapressios, that it was completed render the direction
.ef Mr. Rr.rrotr. The mansion was planned for the perfect
accommodation of a family of consideration, and erected
an the good old-fashioned times when substantiality was
voted an indispensable appendage. During the last autumn
A complete and thorough repair took place, and the
interior was ornamented iri a style partaking of the very
best taste; it is therefore pre tented to public notice with-
out the usual alloy resulting ',4:,:nin an expensive and
tedious outlay of money. Of the ,s4:e.eation it will pro-
nably suffice to mention, that it is in the ~virnediate vici-
nity of the Duke of DevoeuturnE,
s favourite ret,t<.t at Chia-
wick, aryl almost approximates upon the Garden. af the
be remarked in conclusion,
fleeticultural Society. It may
frontage to the high western
that rhere is &a iturnens
..7i. la, a without a
the
hall inierfering with
Road Aicil may beneficiallyt_ou ~.943e in a succese-
be Itd e d
nil isuilding- ape.wlation, 4P
~.rvy of the comforts .of ,
ll'eart4t`e view Parkarising i'
ca well
timbered,, that any une -e '1,4,1' a. 2 ,
- "sly sir rgr t
feet
te7i
in ex_
:en advantageous plan could AA
eight :14WArlied
e;ew-, This front is nearly
il ten feet lc. ).,,eight. The
tent, anal enclosed by a Iva' ,r, 4, ; 4
14W first p 9 .Veapter. to
gardens are very ettensive.
Pressieg fiereaard,
herbs and vegetables for the kitchen.
the rural bridge and fish pond .2:k the next objects for corn.
inendation. The r;ncipal garden Occuple°s la
considerable
space, awl the walls, which are unusually )oity,
9 mmer-
are clothed
with a profusion of the best fruit-trees ; thee. a .11
Louse in the centre, overloce'J.ng the passing scertexy ,of, the
house
western road. The Jonaaio, is ).7 acres, (be it moie dr
fess), has already been slightly 3110,W to : the greater part
is disposed In park-like grounds, with tireber and timber-
like trees scattered about in pleeteiK; negligence ; the plan-
tation and shrubLery walks environ the whole, And the
• latter is wonderfully prolific., and
.s.doram by
sairio,
c.nd
American plants of the most rare and ectimable kind. ,:•
progreseing, through this " little ParadLse,' the flower-
%artier), in all its varied and beautiful form, priseeete itself,
with ornamental water, for gold and silver gall to adorn die
tee, tre. Mr• nreToN s genius presided over the disposi-
tion of the flower-garden. •
At £)swestry Fair, 015 Saturday and Monday
last, the prices= scarcely came up to those above mentioned.
Fair,
Shrewsbury v.L. I
. I
outllly on Tuesday and
more favourable for setters than
y in the wool, obtainedta77.
Wednesday last was rathe:
' -eady customers. There
some previous fairs. Fat Silt-.
per lb. ; Ewes and Lambs found 1.
and extra.ozdinary
was a considerable number of pie, •
n,,9;ler b. ls : suckers
prices were demanded, especially for small '-
sold at from 18s. to 225. per head, (perhaps Is• ad, ),
and strong Pigs obtained a high price, but scarcely SO b..,:, 1,
as what was asked some time ago. Fat cattle sold at frog(
rid. to tilid per lb. according to quality : Stores, and Cows
with Calves, found ready purchasers, as the grass grows
rapidly. There was a moderate supply of Cheese ; skim
t os. to ido. per cwt. ; middling 60s. to G. ; hest £5.9. I
flacon lid. to ta._ per lb, Hams tild. _

PRICES OF STO4'ES THIS
Bank stock -- I
3 per Cent. Red. SSII; 5
3 per Cent. Cons Ssii rki i
3Y4 per Cent. 9-Pi
Ditto Red. Wili
4 per Cent New
Ditto, 1826 102%
Bank L Ann. 19 3-16 %
India Stock -
Ditto Bondi 97 99 pm. I

PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS
Austrian Bonds, 5 per cent.
Brazilian Bonds .5.9;, 8
Buenos Ayres 80nd5...59 8!;,1;,
Chilian Bonds, 6 per ct. 27
Colombian Bonds —
Ditto, 1824.
Danlih, 3 per cent.
Greek Bonds
Ditto, :825
Guatimala
Mexican Bonds
Do. 152.5 42

PRICES O 1 IRISH STOCI
Bank Stock
Consolg, 3 per colt.
Gov. Stack, 3Xi per 9144
tto, New
I per Cent. 100,'
Gov. Deb. 34 per cent.... 93 V,
Royal Canal Stock
Grand Canal Stock
City Deb. 4 per cent
Hallast (Mice Deb. 4 n. et

MA
Arrived. Due.
O America 1
O Brazil .
0 Buenos Ayres
1 Dublin
0 Flanders 0
▪ France
it Gottenburgh
0 Guernsey & Jersey, 0

PUGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDOK TO-MORROW.
110rning...45 minutes atter 4.1 Evening.... 3 minutes after 5

THE CATHOLIC QUESTION.

Being duly sensible of the importance attached to the

result of the Debate on the CATHOLIC QuEsnov, We

resolved on Monday last to send an EXPRFSS with it to

LIFLAND, LIVERPOOZ., &c., and we have new much plea-

sure in adding that ()lir exertions have been crowned with

complete snccess.

We received the following from an esteemed Corre-

spondent, to whose disinterested exertions we are deeply

indebted :

numni, )IA 15, 1823.

MN' DEAR SlR—Your don's in order to promulgate the result
of the Catholic Debate, have justly immortalised your Paper.
Nothing could be more successful,—and your liberality is the
theme of general admiration and gratitude. W• had your Paper
at Three o'clock Yesterday Evening, and it went through the
kingdom twenty-four hours earlier than the Mill !

Ever faithfully your's,