The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EV.E.NI NG-, MARCH 1, 1844.

sate that gentleman for the anxiety of mind which he
had suffered, and the injury which he had sustained
during the period that he remained under a cloud.—
(Hear, hear.) The Attorney and Solicitor-General, and
all the parties connected with the Government, were
perfectly aware that Mr. Bond Hughes had rectified
the mistake which he had inadvertently committed.
He said, therefore, that Mr. Bond Hughes had great
reason to complain. He (Mr. Duncombe) would like to
know what sum Mr. Hughes received as compensation ;
and whether he was as well paid as another individual,
he meant Mr. Charles Ross. He (Mr. Dumcombe) had
now done with Mr. Bond Hughes, and he hoped that he
had said nothing derogatory to that gentleman's
character, as it had not been his intention to do
so. He next came to the " Carlisle patriot."—
(Laughter.) Mr. Charles Ross, it appeared, was em-
ployed by the Morning Chronicle newspaper as a repor-
ter, and in his evidence, when examined by Mr. Ser-
geant Warren, he said that he arrived in Dublin on the
3d of July. He said he came to take the notes of Mr.
O'Connell's meeting at Donnybrook. He was asked,
" Did you come of -your own accord, or was it
suggested to you ? Ido not ask you who it was sug-
gested it to you." Mr. Ross—" It was suggested to nte. '
He was then asked, for whom did you attend?" Mr.
Ross—" I attended on the part of the Government."
It therefore appeared that he had been sent over by the
Government, they knowing that he was in the employ of
the Morning Chronicle, a paper opposed in politics to the
Government. In the course of cross-examination, this
question was put to him, " I believe you said you were sent
over to Ireland by the Government'?" Mr. Ross—" Yes,
I was." " Now Government is a comprehensive word,
have you any objection to tell what member of the Go-
vernment suggested this to you ?" Immediately upon
this question being put, the counsel for the Crown
jumped up, and said, " Don't answer that question."
As much as to say, "Don't tell the Irish peo-
ple—don't tell the English people, who it was
that employed you." Mr. Charles Ross had
before stated that he had been sent over and employed
by a person high in office. Now he (Mr. Duncombe)
wanted to know, and he thought he had a right to ask,
who that high person was ?—(Hear, hear.) Could not
the Government find other persons but those em-
ployed on newspapers—and employed by newspapers,
too, not in the interest of the Government ? Could they
not have found other persons than those for such
a disreputable purpose as that for which Mr. Ross had
been engaged ? Of course the Government knew per-
fectly well that a person going over under false colours
—going as the reporter to the Morning Chronicle would
thereby be enabled to obtain information with
facility. This they considered was an advantage.
He understood that at one meeting that which took place
at Mullaghmast, this indiVidual, Mr. Ross, was known
to be acquainted and connected with the liberal press,
and was treated on that account with the greatest kind-
ness by the traversers themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In-
deed, so little did they think that this gentleman was a
spy, that Mr. Steele, one of the traversers, took him
in his own carriage 32 miles to Dublin.—(Hear, hear.)
By this means he got an insight into all their secrets.—
(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to
know who was the honourable and upright individual who
employed that individual. He stated that he had re-
ceived 3501. for this and 50/. for the Donnybrook meet-
ing. He then came back to England, and his connec-
tion with the Morning Chronicle having ceased at the
termination of the session of Parliament, he went again
to Ireland for the Standard newspaper, and then it was
that he did this dirty work for the Government. Those
who employed this man to do this dirty work ought to
be known, not only to the Government but to the
people. The people ought to know who ordered the
spending of their money for such purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
He could not believe that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government would condescend to such
meanness, nor could he think the Right Hon. Baronet,
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had
any hand in it—(Hear, hear)--because, on a former oc-
casion, the Right Bon. Gentleman had said that the
Government had never employed spies among the po
lice, and that if any of them had been employed in such
a character, it must have been under the countenance of
some local magistrates. Now he (Mr. I).) wanted to know
if it was a Member of the other House of Parliament ;
and this he would say, that, let it be whom it might, they
had inflicted eternal disgrace upon themselves.(Hear,
hear.) So much for the Carlisle patriot, Mr. Ross.—
(Laughter.) He was now an ornament to the Standard
newspaper. He was now, he (Mr. Duncombe) be-
lieved, a reporter on that paper—(Hear, hear)—and as
an agent of the Government, he (Mr. Duncombe) should
like to know what he had received as a remuneration
for the services he had rendered. Before he went to the
case of Mr. Jackson, he would read to the House what
was the opinion of the Irish press upon these transactions.
There was an account of Mr. Charles Ross in the Dub-
lin newspapers which he would read to the House. The
Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph describing the
manner in which Mr. C. Ross had acted in Ireland, from
which it appeared that that person had represented him-
self in Dublin as the reporter, first of the Morning Chro-
nicle, and subsequently of the Standard, while in re-
ality, he attended the meetings in Ireland in the
capacity of agent to the Government, for the
purpose of obtaining information to be afterwards
rendered available for prosecuting individuals. The
paragraph also stated that Ross had acted a most trea-
cherous part, 'and one unworthy of a man having the
least pretensions to the character of a gentleman—that
he had deceived those with whom his professional duties
brought him in contact, having represented himself as
acting in the honourable capacity of a newspaper reporter,
while he was in reality a reporter for the Government—
that no sophistry could palliate such treacherous conduct
which was so different from the conduct of those reporters
who when called as witness on a former occasion, of a
similar kind, had refused to attend. The paragraph
went on to state what was, in his (Mr. Duncombe's)
opinion, the most correct, that if this principle of turn-
ing newspaper reporters into Crown witnesses were ge-
nerally adopted, the freedom of discussion would be at
an end.—(Hear, hear.) He came next to Mr. Jackson,
of the Morning Herald, who it appeared was not a re-
gular reporter, but a correspondent of the Morning
Herald, and who used to write some very interesting
and entertaining reports for that paper, and which he
used to render, to use his own terms, " rather spicy" for
those readers who indulged in the Morning Herald.—
(Laughter.) At the close of that person's examination
he stated that the Morning Herald had then lately
changed hands, and that it was a short time previous to
the change of proprietors he had been directed to put
himself in communication with Mr. Kemmis, the Crown
solicitor, and that he had
itshebeninegwspapers. The witness
onsO'Connellible f
forre-
hearmdadAelr.
resp
then said that he wished to say something, as
whatt lya p
preeaprueddi a tien h
comments might be made on his conduct.
The Lord Chief Justice then asked him what he wished
to say. Mr. Jackson then protested solemnly that those
documents were given to the Crown Solicitor, Mr.
Kemmis, by the proprietors of the Morning Herald,
without his knowledge—(Hear, hear)—and that he never
knew they were in the hands of the Crown Solicitor till
they were handed to him (Mr. Jackson) by him.—
(Hear, hear.) He said he thought it was due to his
character to make this plain explanation of the truth.—
(Hear, hear.) No person, said the Hon. Member, could
cast the least blame upon Mr. Jackson after this state-
ment.—(Cheers.) It was evident that Mr. Jackson
was ashamed of the conduct of the Crown, and
that he was very anxious to cast the odium
of the transaction from himself. Those docu-
ments were handed over by the proprietors
for reasons best known to themselves. lie knew it
might be said that this took place before the transfer of
the Morning Herald, which.; happened on the Ist of
January. But there were reasons for handing over
these documents before the money was paid, and before
the Government assisted in advancing the money.—
(Cheers.) The Government, no doubt, had very equit-
able claims to the documents which they found in the
Morning Herald office before that establishment was
transferred, and before it was incorporated with the
Standard. But it was clear Mr. Jackson was ashamed
of the transaction, though it appeared the Morning Herald
was not ashamed of handing over the documents.—(Hear.)
He said that the Government ought to be ashamed of
their conduct in availing themselves of those documents.
He would read some of the opinions of the press on this
subject. The opinions were strong, but not stronger
than the conduct of the parties would justify. (The
Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph from one of the
newspapers, which stated that the conduct of the Morning
Herald in this transaction, was unparalleled in the public
press. The charge against it was clear and unmistake-
able. The Herald received communications under the
seal of confidence, and had bartered them to the GoTern

that state of alarm. If they looked at what had
occurred during these debates, and to the general opi-
nion of the conduct of the Government, he must say he
had never known a debate so damaging to a government.
—(Laughter, and Oh, oh ! from the Ministerial benches.)
They must be on the eve of the fulfilment of the predic-
tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, if there was the
slightest foundation for his assertion of last session.
He (Mr. Duncombe) had no apprehension of that
prediction being fulfilled. The only apprehension
he had of their becoming a melancholy spectacle
in the eyes of other nations was a fear that.
Members of Parliament would not :speak out on this
question, and would not do their duty ; but if Hon.
Members on both sides of the House would do
their duty in this matter, there need be no alarm.
He knew it was perfectly competent to her Majesty's
Ministers to refuse the returns he moved for, and that
without adducing one single argument in support of
their conduct, just as they had refused the other night
the motion of his Honeurable and Gallant Friend
near him (Capt. Layard, we believe). On that occasion
they relied not on argument, but on their numerical ma-
jority.—(Hear, hear.) They might do so on that occa-
sion, they might refuse the information he sought for,
and which Ireland had a right to have, but if they did
so, the country would not be satisfied, but every
impartial man would come to the conclusion, that these
proceedings had been conducted, from first to last, in a
way which refiecied no honour on them, either as men,
or as Ministers of the Crown.—(Cheere.)
Mr. WALLACE was understood to second the motion.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, he should, indeed, en-
tertain a melancholy opinion of the future prospects, not
only of Ireland, but of the whole country, if the ma-
jority in that House sympathised with the sentiments of
the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward
this motion.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) And he must add, that under ordinary circum-
stances, after the speech which had just been delivered,
and especially after the invectives and accusations in
which the lion. Gentleman had indulged when speaking
of the Government, he should have considered it his
duty to oppose entirely the returns asked for ; but,
considering the whole circumstances of the case, the
particular time at which the motion was made, and that
there must be a vote of public money during the present
session, in connection with these prosecutions, he could
noL.bring himself to give to the motion a positive and
absolute opposition. He would beg the House to re-
member in what light the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Dun-
combe) presented himself to them that evening. If he
(Sir J. Graham) mistook not, the Hon. Gentleman
was last night attending a meeting of his constituents in
Finsbury, where, after a strong and a warm discussion, a
motion was carried instructing him to obstruct the
progress of the supplies in that House.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—There was no such motion made.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM confessed he might be wrong,
for after the great variety of subjects then introduced,
and the great variety of opinions expressed upon them,
it was somewhat 'difficult to say with certainty what had
really passed.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
earned the Government, they were damaged by the late
debate, that they were not so strong as they thought
themselves to be, and that a change had recently taken
place on his own side of the House. He wished him joy of
it, and of the new compact alliance which they had formed
But he would now proceed to touch upon some of these
topics to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted in
his speech. He would not then go into the discussion
of the conduct of the trial in Ireland ; he would not then
re-open all those questions which for nine nights had
occupied the attention of that House.—(Hear. hear.)
His Hon. Friend the Member for Bridport was about to
ask him that evening when it was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to proceed with measures of great
practical importance, on which the great anxiety in the
public mind prevailed, and which he admitted it was
necessary to proceed with without delay—he alluded to
the Factory Bill and the Poor-law, Now he begged to
remind the House that since the protracted debate on
the affairs of Ireland, they had had two days for supply,
and on each of those occasions the Hon. Member
for Rochdale made a motion before going into
Committee, for the avowed purpose of obstruct-
ing the progress of the votes.—(Hear, hear.) So
also the Hon. Gentleman, adopting the same line, and
pursuing the same course, not content with one motion,
that evening made a second, re-opening nearly all the
questions with reference to the conduct of the trial,
which had already undergone protracted discussion.
Under these circumstances he must anticipate the
question of the Honourable Member for Brid-
port by stating that it was impossible for her
Majesty's Government to fix any precise time for pro-
ceeding with the measures to which the question re-
ferred.(llear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.)
Now with reference to the motion of the lion. Gentle-
man, he at once avowed that her Majesty's Government
observing in the early part of last year the language
which was used at large meetings assembled in Ireland in
rapid succession, did think it their imperative duty
to obtain clear, full, authentic and satisfactory
evidence as to the language employed at these meetings.
He said decidedly that he should have betrayed his duty
to the public if he had omitted every fair opportunity of
obtaining authentic information.—(Hear.) Now he saw
Hon. Gentlemen on the other side opposed to him—he
was afraid bitterly opposed to him in party politics, but he
would ask them it; at alltimes, it had not been the pracice
of the executive Government, when popular excitement
was running high, and immense public meetings were
being assembled, to obtain authentic information by
means of shorthand-writers as to'the language addressed
to meetings of this description.—:(Hear, hear, from Lord
John Russell.) lhe simple question was whether the
means employed for obtaining information were fair and
legitimate. Now, the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to
use, he would not say offensive, but certainly very strong
language with reference to the course which had been
pursued in the case under consideration. He ;(Sir
James Graham) did not shrink from avowing that all
the means which had been adopted to obtain
information in this case had been adopted by
him, and on his personal responsibility.—(Cheers
from the Ministerial benches, and " Hear, hear," from
both sides of the House.) He did not wish to share
this responsibility with any of his colleagues—(Hear,
hear)—he was the person who was responsible, and
from that responsibility he would not shrink.—(Hear.)
The course he adopted with respect to Mr. Bond Hughes
was, to apply to Mr. Gurney, the gentleman at the head
of the reporting establishment for the Government, and
asked him to get an intelligent person and a good short-
hand writer, and direct him to procure this person's
services, at the usual rate of remuneration given to gen-
tlemen so employed. Mr. Gurney, in accordance with
those directions, procured Mr. Bond Hughes, and that
gentleman was sent over to Ireland, to take short-
hand notes of the speeches made at those meetings
He (Sir J. Graham) was perfectly willing to produce a
return of all the moneys expended tinder this head. He
should most freely give returns of all the moneys ex-
pended under the item of Mr. Gurney's shorthand esta-
blishment, and in those documents it would be found
that Mr. Bond Hughes did not receive any higher remu-
neration for his services on those trials than any
other Government shorthand writer, and he was
convinced that the Honourable Member for Finsbury
would find that this remuneration had not been extrava-
gant. The Hon. Member had referred to what had
occurred concerning the mistake about Mr. Barrett's
name ; but with this exception, there was not
one portion of Mr. Hughes's evidence which had been
shaken, even by the strictest cross-examination. He
should say, with respect to Mr. Charles Ross,
that the first occasion upon which the Government
thought fit to send a short-hand writer to Ire-
land was in the month of June, and he
avowed that he had known Mr. Ross for many
years, and felt •confident that he was a most
accurate reporter and a trustworthy and honurable man.
He (Sir James Graham) knowing him to be such, on
his own responsibility, sent for Mr. Ross, and told him
that the Government wished a shorthand to proceed to
Ireland for the purpose of attending a meeting that was
to be held at Donnybrook. His direction ta Mr. Ross
was, " You will proceed there—you will tade an accurate
note of what is said, and be prepared to verify upon oath
that which you hear." The pecuniary arrangement
was that Mr. Ross was to receive 50!. for his travelling
expences. Mr. Ross did proceed to Ireland—he attended
the meeting at Donybrook, and he took a verbatim
report of it. Subsequently at the end of the session of
Parliament, before Mr. Bond Hughes was sent over,
another arrangement was made with Mr. Ross, which
was that he should again proceed to Ireland, and remain
there during the recess—the whole of the recess from the
Ist and 2d of August, until the first week in February,
for the sum of 3501. It would appear, when Mr. Gur-
ney's account was presented to the House, that the rate
of payment to Mr. Ross was considerably less than the
rate of payment to Mr. Bond Hughes, and the persons
employed in Mr. Gurney's establishment. Now the ac-
cusation was, that Mr. Ross was sent over by him
(Sir James Graham) as a spy. He most solemnly and
positively denied that accusation. His directions
to Mr. Ross were, to go to Ireland and avow himself as
the reporter for the Government. He (Sir J. Graham)
knew that at that time Mr. Ross was connected as a re-
porter with one of the morning papers—he believed the
Morning Chronicle. He was also aware that at the end
of the session of Parliament Mr. Ross went to Ireland
for the Standard. But his directions to that gentle-
man were, " You will proceed to Ireland as the
reporter for the Government. He did not sanction any
concealment whatever. He did not sanction it either di-
rectly or indirectly. But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Duncombe) said that after all it was well-known that
Mr. Ross was employed by the Government. (Mr.
Duncombe made some observation across the table which
we did not hear.) He understood the Hon. Gentleman
to say that Mr. ;loss had concealed the fact of his being
the Government reporter, and that he had travelled
with Mr. Steele forty-two miles while he was Govern-
ment reporter. Now this he (Sir J. Graham) absolutely
and positively denied.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE--It was his own evidence.
Sir J. GRAHAM had not the least objection, under
these circumstances, to produce the accoant of all
monies paid to Mr. Ross, and of all monies paid
to Mr. Bond Hughes, and of the instruc-
tions given to them. Those instruations were
certainly verbal, for which he (Sir J, Graham) was re-
sponsible. Now, with regard to the case of Mr. Jackson.
That was the third case mentioned by the Hon. Gentle-

went, for the purposes of currying on a prosecution
such conduct struck at the root of all confidence in the

public journals. It made those who attended public
meetings for the purpose of reporting spies and in-
formers. They could but express their abhorrence of
the perfidious conduct pursued in this transaction which
the Herald and Crown might divide between them.—
(Cheers and laughter.) He (Mr. Duncombe) concurred
in that opinion, and he thought that even if the Herald
was base enough to hand over the documents to the
Crown the Crown ought not to avail themselves of
them in a trial of such importance. The trial
became tainted by such conduct.—(Hear, hear.)
and they had better leave the prosecution alone, than
conduct it by such means, which reflected so little credit
on the Government. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for
the Colonies, informed the House the other night, with
more candour than discretion, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wrote a letter. to the Attorney-General for Ire-
land, commending him for the judgment, the firmness and
good temper with which he conducted the prosecution.
As they had thus passed a vote of thanks to the At-
torney-General for Ireland, he hoped that others con-
nected with the trials would not be excluded. He hoped
the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench would receive a
vote of thanks for the charge he bad delivered.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He hoped that Mr. Kemmis, too,
the Crown Solicitor, would be thanked for his
services in procuring the jury.—(Cheers.) No doubt
the proprietors of the Morning .Herald and Standard
found a aufficient recompense in their own consciences,
and were above any idea of remuneration, but he must
say they would not do justice to the Chief Justice and
Mr. Kernmis if they only thanked the Attorney-General
for the judgment and temper with which he had con-
ducted the prosecution. Now, be wanted to know if a
verdict so obtained would gain any moral in-
fluence whatever, he doubted it very much ;
it certainly had not produced that effect in England.
The impression, from one end of England to the other,
was, that Mr. O'Connell had not bad a fair trial. At
the close of last session, the Right Hon. the Secretary
of State for the Home Department told the House that,
if it did not strengthen the hands of the Government,
daantdionmamfotarin
theits authority in Ireland, England would
present a melancholy spectacle to the eyes of surrouning
nations. If there was then a shadow of foun-
Right Honourable Gentleman's
assertton, the Government must now be iu

man. With Mr. Jackson he (Sir J. Graham) had had
no communication. Mr. Jackson was a reporter con-
nected with the Morning Herald, and was resident
in Dublin. The crown solicitor was bound to obtain
evidence to corroborate the testimony of Mr. Bond
Hughes and Mr. Ross, and he ascertained that Mr.
Jackson had taken notes of some of the meetings. He
therefore communicated with Mr. Jackson, and
with the conductors of the Morning Herald,
in whose service Mr. Jackson was employed.
A return should be made of all the law expenses incur-
red in the late prosecutions, from which would appear
hat all the moneys. that had been paid to Mr. Jackson.
Tao must again - dodge that no :communication