The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-25 00:00:00

THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 28; 11044.

the passage of which they complain, in order that the
House may take that course which may appear to be the
best. That is the position in which we are placed. I
have referred, Sir. during the interval which has
elapsed since this subject was last under our considera-
tion, to the cases in recent times which appear to bear
upon this. I think the three principal cases are, the
case of the complaint preferred by Lord Maid-
stone against Mr. O'Connell, the application
made to the House by Mr. She'l, the Right
Hon. Gentleman, who is now a Member of this House,
for the vindication of his character against certain
charges, which were brought against him in a speech
delivered by a Member of this House, Mr. Hill, at a '
public meeting; and the third case i‘s • a complaint
made by the Hon. Member for Warrington, Mr.
Blackburn, against a • gentleman who had been
unseated by the report of a Select Com-
mittee—Mr. Poulter. Those are the cases in
recent times, which appear to have an immediate bear-
ing upon our proceedings in the present instance. Sir,
I will not point out the nice distinctions. which may exist
between these several cases and the present. The con-
clusion which I have • drawn from the course pur-
sued on the whole of these occasions is this, that
it would be right upon the present occasion to re-
solve that this House wiil take the complaint, which
has now been made by two of its Members, into consi-
deration on Friday next.—(Bear, hear.) "My respect-
ful advice to the. House is, that we shall proceed in this
case with strict adherence to all established formalities
—that we shall give no .party any right to complain
that we are taking advanvantage of admissions casually
made by him, or that we are acting precipitately,
or have refused to a low him an opportunity
of explaining anything which he may have said.
I think that, in the course of yesterday, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Knaresborough did distinctly admit that the
paragraph complained of contaitiod a correct report of
his speech. He also stated that he was prepared to
abide by the charge which that paragraph alleges to have
been made. Still, although he made that admission, he
did not conclude the speech he was then delivering ; and
it is posSible that had that speech been brought to a con-
clusion, some mitigating statements would have been
made by him, which lie had not an opportunity of
making. I think that strict justice would in-
cline me to advise that we should not take
advantage of admissions made under such circumstances.
—(Cheers.) I should advise that we resolve to take the
matter of this complaint into consideration on Friday
next ; and I would combine that resolution with another,
namely, that the Hon. Member for Kaaresborough
should attend in his place on Friday next, for the pur-
pose of hearing that paragraph read to him by the
Speaker, in order that he "may,stete. whether or not he
admits this report to be a correct report of
what ho said ; and I think also that we ought
to give him an opportunity of establishing the
charges which he has made.—(Cheers.) If he admits
the report, and if he states that he is in a condition to
prove it, and that he is willing to prove the charges
"hich he has preferred, my advice to the House is to
give him an unreserved opportunity of doing so. I would
not assume the falsity of the report, but I would advise the
House to be willing to accept the proof and to appoint a
Select Committee for the purpose of enabling the Hon.
Member to substantiate his charges. I will discuss no
other contingencies, and I trust that I have spoken as
becomes my position in giving my advice to the House.
I want to act most dispassionately, and my advice is to
act with all due regard to established forms; and I there•
fore content myself by moving, that the House take
this complaint into consideration on Friday next, and if
the House should affirm that resolution, I will move that
the Member to whom this speech was attributed do
attend in his place on that day.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I rise merely to say, that
I entirely concur in the course now proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman. I think I cannot do better
than refrain from saying a single word more respecting
it, as I think a better course could not be pursued under
the circumstances.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FRENCH—The impression on my mind is, that
the words which have been just read to the House do
not bear out the charges which have been made by
the lion. Member for Knaresborough. I cannot see
that the passage in the Times bears out the charge that
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite tampered with the
Hon. Member for Beverley, and as to the charge
against the Right Hon. Gentleman, I can only say that
the Right Hon. Gentleman did read the document which
had been got up by Mr. Mott, and which document, if the
public papers speak the truth, was acknowledged to be false
and Mr. Mott has since been dismissed from his office.—
(Hear.) I think that as far as the lion. Member for
Beverley is concerned, he must have perceived from the
cheering of the House that hiseharacter stands altogether
unimpeached.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Hon. Member
for Knaresborough, I must admit that he lifts the mis-
fortune of not being able to control his tongue.—(Loud
cheers, and laughter.) But I think it is a dangerous
precedent that a Minister of the Crown, backed by a
majority of the House, should be able to put down any
man who ventured to bring a charge against him. On
that ground I must object to the motion.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said—Sir, the lion. Gentleman has
altogether mistaken the course which I meant to pursue.
I have propOsed a resolution to the effect, that the House
shall consider the charge, and shall give the Hon. Mem-
ber a full opportunity of proving its truth.—(Hear.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE was not quite sure that they were
going according to precedent. He thought that it was
the proprietor or printer of the newspaper who
should be called to the bar in this case. The Noble
Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had gone rather too far
when he said that the Hon. Member must have known
when he made the charge, that it was untrue. The course
proposed by the Right Hop. Secretary for the Home
Department would haVe • been the best, to
have the words of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough
taken down—(Hear, hear)—without going through the
intermediate process of reading a newspaper.—(Hear,
hear.) Ile did not meats to justify in the slightest
degree the speech of the Hon. Member, nor did he think
there was the slightest ground for the accusation. But he
must also recollect that the two gentlemen impugned
had allowed ten days to pass over without noticing the
charges, instead of calling the accuser to account
on the first day after the recess, which was
what he (Mr. Duncombe) had expected when
he read the speech._(Hear, hear.) No doubt the
charge was calumnious, and, as it was made in the pre-
s,,nce of thousands, no time should have been lost
in calling for explanation in the House on the first op.
portunity.—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Be-
verley had said that he had been advised by his friends
to treat the charge with silent contempt.—(Hear.)
In his opinion the advice so given was sound and good.
But then another Hon. Member, totally unconnected
with the matter—whose name had never been brought
forward in relation to it—got up and said to the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand), " Pray, Sir,
did you say so and so?"—(Laughter.) Now, in answer
to that question, had he (Mr. Buncombe) been the per-
son interrogated, he should have said, " Pray, Sir, what
business is that of yours?"—(Loud laughter and cheers.)
He should, however, if interrogated by certain of the
Hon. Gentlemen, certainly have given them the satis-
. faction they had a right to ask, either in that House or
out of it. But they not choosing to ask it,
he . really had not been able to see what
right any other Honourable Member had to
ask it for them.—(Loud cheers.) But the ques-
tion having been put, they had now to deal with a state-
ment which had been avowed, and they were doing so
in a very round-about way. In his opinion, the
most proper course now to pursue was to re-
fer the matter to a Committee of three or five Mem-
bers—aye,' and lie would not object to the lion.
Member for Knaresborough himself nominating that
Committee. If, before that Committee, he refused to
substantiate his accusations, or if, in that Corn..
mittee, he failed in substantiating his charges, then it
would be for the House to exercise its undoubted au-
thority should not that Hon. Gentleman—as he hoped he
would do, and ai he (Mr. Buncombe) would not hesitate
to do—at once withdraw the charges he might be un-
able to substantiate, and express Ins regret for making
assertions for which there was no foundation.—(Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI said he had been a member of the
Nottingham Committee, and could bear witness to the
utter groundlessness of the charges brought against the
Hon. Member for Beverley.—(tlear, hear.) No man's
conduct could have been more satisfactory. True
he (Mr. D'lsraeli) differed in opinion with the
Honourable Gentleman, • but he never for one
moment questioned the conscienciousness of his deci-
sions. With regard to Mr. Ferrand, he entirely dis.
approved of the course he had lately been pursuing in the
country. He disagreed as to the spirit he evinced and
the tone he used towards the master-manufacturers.
He acknowledged them to be an order of men second in
importance to none ; but in treating this subject as the
House seemed now inclined to treat it, he thought they
were taking a very injudicious course, and one of which
they would repent. There were two courses open to the
Hon. Member for Beverley. Having felt that the charge
ought to be noticed, he might have asked some friend,
some man of sense, temper, and firmness, to have applied
to the lion. Member for Knaresborough. He knew
that some gentlemen thought that an appeal of this kind
immediately led to Wimbledon-common and pistols ;
but he believed that in 990 cases out of a thousand this
was not the case. If the affair had been entrusted to an
individual of that character, it was impossible but the
result must have been satisfactory to the Hon. Member
for Beverley, and not degrading to the Honourable
Member for Knaresborough. But there was another
course open to the Honourable Member for Be-
verley. He might have thrown himself upon the
House, and might have asked it to give him its
protection in his official character.—(" So he did.") But
the Hon. Gentleman did neither ; lie neither made a
public nor private complaint on the subject. The mat-
ter was brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman who as-
sumed the office in that House of public prosecutor.—
(Ministerial cheers). He brought it forward
without the least notice, without affording the object of
it, that golden bridge which the social spirit and social
usages usually furnished to every one in similar cir-
cumstances—lie brought it forward without giving
the slightest opportunity for accommodation.---(" Hear,
hear," from Mr. Roebuck.) The Hon. Member for Bath
seemed to exult is the effect he had produced ; he totally,
disapproved of the conduct of the Member for Knares-
borough; he knew the imputation he made to be false
and frivolous, but nothing would exceed the indecorous
conduct of' the House if it assumed the judicial
character, in what was anything but a judicial
spirit. The charge was suddenly made by the Hon.
Member for Bath, attended with sarcasms—not very
successful ones, indeed, but such as showed the disposi-
tion to be present, though the hand of the master might
not be very apparent. The Honourable Member for
Beverley had not thought proper, either in his
private or public capacity, to appeal to the Honour-
able Member for Knaresborough. The affair was
precipitated on the notice of the House, and the very
o be the
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!endeavoured to retore some degree of order to
their proceedings, and to invest the course they
were taking with some degree of dignity and decorum.
• But the question was, after wasting two nights on this
subject, whether, after the extract had been read at the
table, they should not go a step further, and let the matter
fall altogether to the ground. They were now entering
I on the question of what limits ought to be drawn in
public discussion. In case of any charge made
in that House, was the House to convert
itself into a court of honour to decide upon it ?
There was sufficient power to keep a speaker in order
in that individual responsibility which attached to every
man. He had heard graver charges than any which
were made by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough.
He had heard last session the leader of the House of
Commons charge an Hon. Gentleman opposite with
making speeches which would lead to assassination.
—(Hear, hear.) How was the Right Honourable
Gentleman treated ? Was he howled at and hooted
down ? No ; Hon. Gentleman opposite sunk before
the accusation in a manner which told little for their
spirit.—(Laughter, and " hear, hear.") But, in this
instance, because the individual was obnoxious to them,
he was treated in a different manner. He did not agree
with the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. He entirely
disapproved of the course he had taken. He objected
to the spirit which animated his remarks. But because
that Hon. Member was obnoxious, • and because he was
not backed the moment he made this charge he was baited.
—( Hear, hear.) Gentleman after gentleman got up
and asked him, " Why did you say this ?" If the
Hon. Member had the common courtesy of society
exercised towards him, he would have had an opportunity
of extricating himself from the painful position in which
he was placed.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that
the Hon. Gentleman had flown from the tribunal. He
(Mr. Disraeli) was not at all surprised that he did
not wish that tribunal to decide the question. He
had no communication with him on the subject,
except for one moment when he was passing out of the
House, on which occasion he told him that he had a
bad case and a worse tribunal.—(Laughter.) That was
his (Mr. Disraeli's) opinion. Ho believed the
Honourable Member for Knaresborough had not de-
ferred to the tribunal, but had demurred to it.
He considered it was unnecessary for him to enter into
any explanations with the House, but that individuals
who thought themselves offended would take their own
course. He did not consider that this quarrel
should be made the quarrel of the House of
Commons, or that the House should convert itself
into a court of honour.—(Hear, hear.) The practical
question for them to consider was—whether the House
ought to establish so dangerous a precedent. The ques-
tion between the Hon. Member and the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was very different from that between him and the
Hon. Member for Beverley.—(Hear.) He had heard the
Hon Member for Knaresborough, on several occasions,
enter into the Mott question and the Keightly Union,
and he had heard the Right Hon Gentleman the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department. and the
Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of the
Government, answer him, and enter upon all the details.
He never could depict to himself any clear idea with
regard to that involved and implicated transaction. All
he could understand was, that there had been a sub-
commission who bad made a report which had been
brought forward. That the transaction was involved in
obscure and suspicious circumstances, no one could deny,
but it was absurd to suppose that the Right:Hon. Gentle-
man should make such a perverted use of his power
for so slight an object.—(Cheers and laughter.)
But it should be remembered that this was the case of a
Member of Parliament of warm feelings, who was not
supported by any great party, who imagined that an
attempt had been made by a Minister of the
Crown to put him down, and that he had
resisted that attempt. They should make some
allowance for the exaggerations which excited
feelings and pardonable vanity—(Cheers and laughter)
—would naturally induce a Member under those circum.
stances to make use of while addressing the masses of the
operative community with which he deeply sympathised.
What could be more natural than that he should say,
" I did this ; I said this? An attempt was made to put
me down by a Minister of the Crown, who drew from a
green box an unpublished report, but it would not do,
I was not to be crushed." Are we, Sir (continued the
Hon. Gentleman), come to such a pass that a Member of
Parliament was not to be allowed to say this?—(lronical
cheers, and laughter.) Was it for a great statesman like
the Right lion. Gentleman, to come forward with a
demure countenance and say, -" the State is in danger,
there's something rotten in the state of Denmark ?
The House of Commons must interfere to vindicate the
reputation of this strong (even if not popular) Ministry."
—(Loud cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman did not appear at first disposed to move in the
subject, and if it had not been for the attack on the Hon.
Member for Beverley, he thought they would never have
heard of the great Mott case.—(Cheers and laughter.)-
He declared solemnly that he had never read the speech
of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, he had never
heard it read until he bad heard it read
with unusual powers of elocution by the Learned Clerk
at the table.—(Laughter.) He had paid great attention
to it, and he confessed that he had been astonished at
the weakness of the assault. He really thought that on
that occasion, when addressing the masses and the mil-
lions, the Hon. Member for Knaresborough had lost a
great deal of that impassioned fervour which usually
characterised his addresses.—(Cheers and laughter.)
It appeared to him that he did not attack the Hon. Mem-
ber for Beverley, absent, with half the furor which he ex-
hibited in attacking the Hon. Member for Stockport,
present.—(Hear.) He really thought that they might
with as much reason have had the speeches which he
made almost every night, read at the table, and
then have had the Secretary of State solemnly
moving a resolution on the subject. Now, he thought
this subject had been treated by one great master in the
right spirit, He thought that when the Right Hon.
Gentleman, with that historical research which he al-
ways displayed, called their attention to the case of the
bottle conjuror, he hit the right nail on the head.—
(Laughter.) He was surprised after the admirable
example which the Right Hon. Gentleman had set to
find him followed as he had been by the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire. There was
always something very chivalric about the Noble Lord ;
but when they wished to exhibit a perfect model for the
lion. Member for Knaresborough—when they wished
to teach him what should be the spirit of Parliamentary
discussion, and how an Honourable Member of
that House should hesitate before he made
a statement that could not be proved, he was
rather surprised to find the Noble Lord, the Member for
North Lancashire, get up, and, in his zeal for his Right
Hon. Friend, denounce the statements made by the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough as fake and calumnious, and
announce that the Hon. Member for Knaresborough was
conscious that they were false and calumnious when he
made them. That was an example which the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough would probably study as a
model ; and when he returned to that House and re-
sumed his place, they would probably find his speeches
distinguished by that amenity of manner, and choice
selection of conciliatory expressions, which always cha-
racterised the speeches of the Noble Lord.—(Laugh-
ter.) So it always was with the speeches of the
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire. He
destroyed Mr. Ferrand first, and destroyed his own po-
sition afterwards. He was the Prince Rupert of Parlia-
mentary discussion. His charge was resistless, but when
he returned, his camp was always in the possession
of the enemy.—(Laughter.) Then, as if all the great
guns were not sufficient to sink this unfortunate
craft, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department. keeping up the solemn spirit
of the farce, rose and said " This is the British House of
Commons, and not the hustings." A gentleman might
tell lies upon the hustings, but he was not to tell
lies in the House. This was the political
morality of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department.—(Hear.)
Now lie entirely differed • from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He did not think they ought to tell lies on the
hustings —(Hear, hear.) He thought a gentleman
ought to be as measured' in what he said on
the hustings as in what ho said in the
House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) And he would
even go further than that, and would say that a gentle-
man ought not to make pledges on the hustings which
ho did not mean to redeem in that House.
He did not think that gentlemen on the hustings ought
to denounce the New Poor-law, and come into the House
of Commons and vote fur it.—(Laughter and cheers.)•
lie called that corrupt and unprincipled conduct—
(Cheers)—and if any Honourable Gentleman in
that House felt that he was guilty of this
conduct, let hiin propose a vote of censure
upon him (Mr. D'lsraeli) for uttering such a
sentiment.—(Great laughter.) On Friday next, the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough was to come
into that House, if he accepted the lenient alternative of
the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government,
and they were to recommence the proceedings of which
they had had two rehearsals.—(Laughter.) Whether the
piece would succeed after the initiatory proceedings
he could not take upon himself to decide,
but he did know that any attempt in that House,
whether it was right or whether it was wrong, to hunt
down an individual had never succeeded, but
had always terminated to the disadvantage of the
persons attempting it. He remembered what another Sir
Robert, who was not a greater man than the present Sir
Robert, said with respect to a similar subject. That Sir
Robert said, " I am quite tired of roasting a parson."
After his experience with Mr. Stockdale, and after his
contest with the sheriffs, when, as on the present
occasion, he was supported by the Noble Lord the
Member for London, who had rather withdrawn of late
- his support from the Government, he (Mr. Disraeli)
thought the Right Lion. Baronet was taking a good-
humoured view of this case—a bottle-conjurer
view of it—and said—" Why, really, after what
has occurred, we ought to allow the matter to drop,
feeling quite aware that Mr. Ferrand has already re-
ceived a great moral lesson, and that when he appears
on the hustings in future, I doubt not that he will re-
member the advice of the Right Hon. Baronet the Se-
cretary of State, and always be as cautious as he is in
the House of Commons."—(Cheers and laughter.)
Captain BERKLEY could not agree with the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat, down in recommending
that the two Hon. Gentlemen who were most interested
should make this t personal 'quarrel. Such a doctrine
was most extraordinary, to say the least of it. He Capt.
Berkeley) hoped that he would be the last in that House
to offer one word of offence to any Hon. Gentleman ;
but if he ever should do so, he would be ready to
apologise fur it the next moment. He never would
attempt to make a personal quarrel out of
any-
thing which had taken place in his public character.
Perhaps, in the first instance, silent contempt would
have been the best cure ; but when, after twenty-four
hours' deliberation, the Hon. Member for Knitreshor,augh
came down yesterday and pledge,d himself to the truth
•f his charge, de4aving thhts lie would not retract a
single word—(Hear, hear)—under these circumstances
tit 4id not ink that it would be.for the dignity of the

House that the matter should be allowed to drop.—
(Cheers.) It must be in the recollection of every gen-
tleman in the House that the Hon. Alember for Knares
borough had been cheered on in the most vociferous
manner by a set of gentlemen who, whenever
the Honourable Gentleman indulged in any coarse
language levelled against the Members of the League,
or the Opposition of that House, encouraged him by their
" sweet voices."—(Cheers and laughter.) These were,
in a great measure, the party answerable for the scrape
in which he had now got. It was very aptly remarked
by a gentleman on that (the Opposition) side of the
House, that the Hon. Member. 'for Knaresborough had
been kept like a dog chained up to check the manufac-
turers, and that', having broken his chain,he turned round
and worried his master.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS said it had been his inten-
tion when he came into the House, if any vote of cen-
sure should have been proposed, to move the previous
question, and he now thought that it would be the best
course fur him to make that motion as an amendment
upon the preSent question.—(Hear, hear.) First, on
general grounds, because he was not prepared to agree in
the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department, that the House was
bound in every case to interfere in quarrels between in-
dividual Members, and to decide which was right, and
which was wrong. There seemed then, to be two courses
of procedure—the one which was recognised by the law
of the land—there was an appeal to the courts of justice,
to which even at the present moment the Hon. Member
for Knaresborough was amenable—the second was
that course of procedure which had been indicated by
the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury.—(Great laughter.)
He wished to refer to the particular question as it
affected the Hon. Member for Beverley (Mr. Hogg).
Nothing, he could assure the House, was further from
his intention than to question the honour and integrity
of either the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hogg) or of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home Department. Having acquitted himself of any such
intention, he must beg the House to reflect upon what
was the direct. charge said to have been brought with
respect to the Hon. Member for Beverley (Mr. Hogg).
As that charge had been stated by him (Mr. Hogg), it
was to the effect that that Hon. Gentleman had been in-
fluenced in his duty by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J.
Graham), in order to do an injustice to another Hon.
Member. Now he (Mr. Hogg), in reading the passage
of which he complained, said that, in a court of justice,
such passage would be judged as to its obvious meaning,
and as to the ordinary acceptation of the words used.
He (Lord J. Manners) protested most strongly against
such a line of argument. The House ought to take
that charge in its literal acceptation, and not to
put one and one together in order to cumulate an offence.
Such a course he considered to be essentially unfair.
They could only take the speech in its literal sense, and,
that they might judge it in its literal sense, he would
take leave again to read it to the House. (The Noble
Lord here read the speech in question.) Now, was there
in these words any imputation of dishonourable motives
on the Member for Beverley ?—(Oh, oh.) Gentlemen
behind him cried " Oh, oh," and such might be their
opinion. But, from the tone of all the altercation, he
believed that the Right Hon. Baronet was very glad that
Mr. Walter was unseated—that Mr. Walter was turned
out of Parliament. Mr. Hogg was the Chairman of the
Committee by which Mr. Walter was unseated. Still,
he believed that the charges against the Member for
Beverley were unfounded. As to the other part of the
question, as.the Right Hon. Baronet had himself said
that he should wish the matter to rest where it was, he
thought the House would be justified in letting it drop.
As he denied the right of the Hon. Member for Bath to
get the House to prosecute others just- when he might
please to interfere, he should therefore move the previous
question as an amendment on the motion before the House.

Mr. SMYTHE seconded the amendment. In doing
so, he disclaimed any concurrence in the opinions ex-
pressed by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. He
believed that the course he had taken on the Factory ques-
tion was pernicious and illusive ; nor did he believe that
the Noble Member for Dorsetshire wished to use any in-
direct means of crushing any political opponent whatever.
He could afford to say that the straightforward conduct
of the Right Hon. Baronet on the factory agitation
question had been not among the least of the signal
proofs of the great administrative ability of that Right
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) That hallucination of
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough with regard to the
Right Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary of State for the
Home Department could only be paralleled by his hal-
lucination with regard to the Commissioners. He be-
lieved that the Hon. Gentleman was in earnest. With
respect to what fell from the Prime Minister re-
garding the appointment of a Committee before
which Mr. Ferrand was to be called, ho did not think
that Committee desirable, because the difference was not
about a question of fact, but a question of motives.
The Hon. Member for Knaresborough had no more
facts to adduce than what he had adduced. In the case
of. the Hon. Member for Beverley, he believed that, so
far from having been influenced by any vicious or un-
worthy motive, that Hon. Member was influenced by an
outrageous sense of public virtue. (Great laughter.)
The House had affirmed the decision of the Committee,
and so declared that the Hon. Member, who paid 401.
for a vote, could not have a seat in the British Legis-
lature. The Hon. Member for Beverley had certainly
shown more than Roman virtue, and the House had
shown more than Roman effrontery ; because, unlike
the Roman augurs, they could look one another in the
face without laughiug.—(A laugh.) Hon. Members
would find it difficult to give proofs of their belief to that
House, though they might believe very firmly. What
Hon. Member could take it upon himself to bring for-
ward proofs of the correctness of his belief ?—( A
laugh)—even the most general sort of belief ? Could
the Hon. Member for Tamworth give proofs of his be-
lief ?—(Great laughter.) The Hon. Member for Fins-
bury believed in the six points of the Charter. Could
he'adduce proofs of his belief?
Mr. DUNCOMBE—Yes, certainly.—(Laughter.)
Mr. SMYTHE would be very curious to hear such
an exposition. The whole of this mischief had origi-
nated with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Bath, and the whole of that Hon. Member's
conduct certainly seemed something like an understand-
ing between purity and power. If he were called upon
to justify that belief he could only say that he had been
induced to form it by an attentive observation of the
political career of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—
(Cheers.) He was not to be deceived by his mock
sympathy with a spurious patriotism.—(Cheers.) He
was assailing all, yet sparing one.—(Loud cheers.)
He was assaulting all, yet fawning upon one.
He was constantly saying, if I were not the Diogenes of
Bath, I would be the Alexander of Tamworth.—(Loud
cheers.) The Hon. Member for Bath had taken the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough by surprise ; he had
taken the House by surprise; he had taken the country
by surprise; for he doubted not but that the country
would feel surprised when they saw the House'postp(?n-
ing the consideration of the poor-law to enter, at his in-
stigation, upon these paltry personalities.—(Cheers.)
The country would be the more surprised at this, be-
cause they saw the Hon. and Learned Gentlemanuniting
in his own person the most perfect antithesis, being at
the same the rebels' agent 'and the Queen's counsel—
the champion of Papineau and the champion of the
Secretary of State.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS wished that the advice of his Right
Hon. Friend, with regard to this debate, had been
taken in the first instance, and that he should not have
had such an authority as his Noble Friend behind him
asserting that there were but two courses which, under
the circumstances, could be pursued, either to refer to a
court of law, or to have recourse to the other remedy,
which had been not obscurely hinted at by another Hon.
Member. It appeared from these statements that it was
necessary either to have recourse to the law or to violate
the law. He (Sir R. Inglis), however, thought there
was another course open. That course was the course
taken by the House on the three former occasions to
which his Right Hon. Friend had referred, establishing
the precedents upon which he asked the House then to
act. He could hardly think that he had misunderstood
his Noble Friend, considering the interest with which he
always listened to what fell from him ; but, considering
the principles to which he adverted, he thought he was
called upon to approve the conclusion to which he ap-
peared to have come. _

- Mr. Hume and Mr. Roebuck rose together to address
the House. There being repeated calls for the latter,
Mr. Hume withdrew.

Mr. ROEBUCK said he feared that he should disap-
point the House; he was going to speak to the question.
—(Laughter.) It struck him that the position of the
question was a very simple one, and if the House would
permit him he would state what he conceived it to be in
three words. A Member of that House had charged a
Minister of the Crown with improperly using the
powers of his office, for the purpose of getting a report
made to that House which was false, to the end
that he might crush a Member of that House.
That charge was made in the hearing
wentf
the House by a Member of the House. He further_a_
on to say that the same Minister of the Crown_h d
em-
ployed his influence with a Member
forget the oath which be had given
.t
_toof atdmhatinffisoteursjus-
tice, ) and
On
eto t
hreturn t
of
fn theseun tr uo
he
avrge rod;
.ca
motion(C r verdict.—(Cries ‘m‘
doe,
in
remind the
thaend*oboesfoohreowhethenoethicaergde tehaememhoetfioenre,
it.he
oTuld
that
whole of the mischief," said an Hon. Member, " is
attributable to the Hon. Member for Bath." Now he
had thought fit to ask the Hon. Member for Knaresbo-
rough if he had made a certain accusation ? That Hon.
Member complained of his not having given him notice ; ,
but he at once affirmed that he had made the charge,
and he also repeated it. Were he to charge the Hon.
Member opposite with robbery, surelyheha
woulder not say.
given
noticecomplained of the
of h
ge. The
Hthoaut.hemoeumghhetrto have
re
Knaresborough
want of notice, but he admitted that he had made the
charge, and he repeated the words which he had used on
a former occasion. The words were these. The Ho-
nourable Member admitted that he used the words attri-
buted to him in the newspapers.—(Hear, hear.) How
could he (Mr. Roebuck)
These called o
weren to makeehcharges s which
a defence
for the part he had taken ? e
were worth repeating, but before he should think them
worth while to refute they must come in a more formi-
dable manner than those made against him (Mr. Roebuck)
by the other side.—(Cheers,) The Neble Lord did not
seem to understand the extent of his own proposition
of " the previous question." The effect was that the
House gave no opinion upon- the subject.—(Cheers.)
But when a Member of that House charged a Minister
of the Crown with having used his power to crush a Mem-
ber of that House, had they come to this pass that the
House would express no opinion of the charge ?—(Hear.)
It had been said that they were bullying and running
down the Member for Knaresborough. Why all the bully-
ing and running down was on the other side.—(Hear.)
He 110 thought it was his duty, after he read the accu-
sation, to take the first opportunity, when he saw the
Member for Knaresborough in his place, to call on him
to prove the truth of his charge---(Hear)—and he
thought that no honest man would make such charges
without being able to prove them,=-(Hear.) The House

gave him an opportunity of substantiating his charges—.
lie again admitted the charges, and then fled from the
accusation. The House, however, in its sense of justice,
said—" No, we will determine nothing now, bat
the Honourable Gentleman shall have a further
oppportunity of explaining himself."—(Hear, hear.)
Ile should wish to know, what the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury, and the Noble Lord opposite (Lord J.
Manners) meant by gentlemanly arrangement ? Why,
he thought no other interpretation could be put upon
his words, than that the charges should be substantiated
by the pistol. What else could be understood, when he
said the Hon. Member for Beverley should apply to a
friend, who would at once get him out of any difficulty.
He ( \lr. Roebuck) thought that after what had oc-
curred in this House within the last two months,
Such a suggestion was most disgraceful to those who
made it. It had been said that this question was too in-
significant to take up the time of the House. Let them
see how the matter stood. One Hon. Member rose in
his place and accused another before the House and the
country of acting corruptly. Again, he made a charge
against a Minister of the Crown of exercising the in-
fluence of his office for a similar end, and therefore he
thought this was a matter which called for the special
interference of the House.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SMYTHE said the Hon. Member who had just
sat down had made assertions which could not be sub.
stantiated.—(Here the cries of " Order" and " Chair"
became so loud as to render the Hon. Member inaudible,
although by his gesticulation we could see that he was
speaking with considerable Warmth.)
Ldrd HOWICK said he should strongly deprecate the
mode of settling this question which was suggested by
the Noble Lord opposite. He thought the House was
acting moat unwisely in carrying this matter any fur-
ther ; and his reason for coming to this conclusion was,
because he knew that the House felt the charge to be
utterly groundless and deserving of contempt, and there-
fore he hoped it would take no further notice of it. If
they took any other course, they were bound to con-
sider the consequences that might arise here after. Al-
though no one, for a moment, could imagine
the slightest foundatio4 for the present accusation,
yet it was possible thatait a future period some Minis-
ter of the Crown might exercise his powers in such a
manner as to call for the intervention of the House, and
by passing the vete now proposed, it would bo establish-
ing a precedent which would deter any Member of that
House from bringing the matter forward. The man, he
thought, who made an accusation which he could not
substantiate, laid himself open to that degree of con-
tempt and ignominy from that House and the country
which would be quite sufficient _punishment for him if
he possessed the feelings of a man or a gentleman. If
the public were satisfied upon this matter without any
resolution, he could see no good that was likely to arise
from passing it. He could not see that great difference
between a false accusation made against an individual
Member of that House and a Minister of the
Crown. The House would remember that the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough had made aa
attack upon the Hon. Member for Stockport a short
time since, when he accused him of acting contrary to
law, and compelling his labourers to adopt the truck
system. In that case nothing was done, yet the House
was perfectly convinced of the falsehood of the charge.
They had already occupied too much of their time with
this subj ect.—( Hear and laughter.) He again repeated that
while there were legislative measures of great import to the
country pending it was ridiculous in them to waste their
time in investigating this trumpery charge. He felt the
present charge was utterly false. But nevertheless he did
not wish to establish a precedent which would have the
effect of preventing the Members of that House from
criticising the acts of Ministers of the Crown when their
conduct was such as to call for criticism. He should
conclude by expressing his hope that the House would
decline any further interference in the matter.
Mr. HUME said he was never more surprised than
at what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for
Sunderland. He argued as if the Hon. Member fer
Knaresborough were the only person concerned in this
matter. Mr. Ferrand had made a gross charge against
a Member of this House, and that Hon. Member sought
the protection of the House. The Noble Lord had used
the word " contempt." Now, against no man in that
House had so many charges been made as against him
(Mr. Hume), and he invariably treated them with
contempt on account of their contemptible nature ;
but this was not a case to be treated with contempt. An
accusation had been brought against an Hon. Member,
that he was guilty of aiding in getting rid of Mr. Walter
from the House, because he was troublesome to Minis-
ters on account of his motions concerning the poor-law.
This assertion had been made, and was believed by a
great number of persons, and therefore, there was a
direct and tangible charge against the Hon. Member for
Beverley and the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department. Under this conviction,
he thought the case deserving of the special notice of
the House.

Sir J. GRAHAM certainly was of opinion that when
such a change as this was was brought fcrward by any
Hon. Member, it was the duty of the House to interfere.
The Hon. Member for Knaresborough had made a
deliberate charge against certain Members of the House,
aid, after an interval of twenty-four hours, when he
ought to have had time for due and mature consideration,he
reiterated it; and that charge was a most serious one, so
far as a Minister of the Crown was concerned, namely,
that he had used his influence in that capacity for cor-
rupt purposes. With respect to the charge which had
been made against his lion. Friend the Member
for Beverley, he thought that nothing could be mere
utterly groundless or false.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be much
better if the further discussion of this matter was dropped
for the present. With respect to the observations of the
Noble Lord opposite, he thought it would be as well if
they, or any future ones which he might have to make,
should be deferred until the time appointed for the fur-
ther discussion of this subject, namely, next Friday.
Mr. HOGG concurred in what bAd been just ex-
pressed. He thought it would be much better not to
press for any discussion until Friday.
Lord J. MANNERS said, that after what had fallen
from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the
Home Department, and also from the Noble Lord, he
felt it his duty to withdraw his motion. He would just
take that opportunity of stating that, in what he had
said that evening, he had not intended in the remotest
degree to advocate the practice of duelling, as the Hon.
Member for Bath had charged him with.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the original
motion, after a few words from Lord INGESTRE, was
agreed to.

COUNTY CORONERS BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Clauses Ito .6 were agreed to.
Mr. HUME then objected to the Bill proceeding be-
fore such a thin House, and moved that the Chairman
report progress.
After a, short conversation, the motion was agreed to,
the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to
sit again on Wednesday next.
Mr. F. FRENCH was then proceeding to submit a
motion respecting the Dublin Jury Lists, when
An HON. MEMBER moved that the House be counted,
and there being but 23 Members present, the House ad-
journed at a Quarter to Eight.

LLOYD'S SHIPPING.
THE CURRENTS OF THE OCEAN.
The following, enclosed in a bottle, was picked up in
the port of Isabella, on the north coast of Porto Rico, on
the 18th March last, and has been forwarded to Lloyd's;
" Mer 15, 1838, EIGHT P.m.—Her Majesty's ship
Andromache, at sea in lat. 47 deg. 10 min. N., lon. 34
deg. 50 min. W., out six days from Plymouth—left
Scilly at nino A.M. of the 10th inst.
" During the last two days have experienced a strong
southerly current of one knot per hour. This bottle is
thrown overboard to ascertain the set of the current, and
it is requested that the person into whoso hands it may
fall will cause the circumstance, with particulars, to be
published for the benefit of navigation."
(Signed by the Captain, Master, and
_several Offi-
cers, both belonging to the vessel and passengers
to Quebec.)
VESSELS SPOKEN WITIL—Tho James,
17th inst., lat. 50, lon. 11; Ava, Portsmouth from London,
uatsht
tt o Quebec,
o Quebec,
18th, lat. 51, lon. 10; Car.isbroo k Bel
same day, lat. 51, lon. 8, by the William Thompson,
arrived at Bristol. Augusta, Bristol to Bombay, sth
ult., lat. 22 S. lon. 29 W., by the Golconda, England,
arrived at Swansea.
Buenos Ayres, lat. 38, lon. 67 W., he mine, Regenburg, from
67 by the Nord, arrived
in the Downs. Elvira, Liverpool to China, sth ult., lat.
2, lon. 24 W. ; Woodman, Clyde to. Tobago, 21st ult.,
Ist. 22 N., lon. 24 W., by the handiana, Rogers, arrived
in the Downs. Ulverstone,. Feb. 12, off the Cape of
Good Hope, by the Humayeon, arrived in the Downs.
Contest, of Jersey, Rio, for Cowes, April 1, lat. 32, lon.
42, by the Rowley, off Cork. Magpie, Liverpool, to the
Cape of Good Hope, 3d ult., lat. 5 S., lon. 18 W. ; Colt,
from Liverpool, 7th ult., lat. 2 N., lon. 21 W. ; Adven-
ture, from Jersey, 16th inst., lat. 47, lon. 16 ; Marianne
schooner and Baltimore American ship, 20th, lat. 49,
lon. 8, by the Ystroom, arrived off Falmouth. James
Vir, of Garlie's-town, for Rio Janeiro, 11th ult., by :the
Jacob Kersting, arrived off Dartmouth. Cornelia brig,
of and from Glasgow, with loss of bowsprit, and had
bore up for that port on the 17th inst., lat. 48, lon. 15,
by the Palos, arrived off Falmouth. Victory barque,
for New Orleans, 21st ult., lat. 23 N., lon. 34 W., by the
Emily, arrived in the Downs.

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