The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-23 00:00:00

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DON, TUESDAY EVENING, SILLY 23, 1944.

_possible standard; for, if they were,to do so they wouid
abolish the school, ill which our officers and seamen at--
tained their experience." When the Hon. and Gallant
Gentleman who spoke last alluded to. the attack
which was made upon the Government in .1839,.
he: must have. forgotten that at that time
great fears were entertained of a Turkish war.
The ships 'were now fully and efficiently manned, but 'a
very different gate of things prevailed in 1838. Ila
maintained that the change in this respect was one of
great importance to the honour and interest of this
country. complaints, were made in 1838 of the want of
ships at home. It was of the greatest importance that
we should be ready for every exigency, and tharthe
officers and seamen should be kept in a proper state of
•
discipline by cruising in the Channel. One reason why,
he had always- maintained that 'ships should be suffi-
ciently manned was, that in case of -necessity the men
might. •be made into two: companies, and the deficiency
supplied
by landsmen. .
Six_G.. COCKI3I.TRN said he was of opinion that they
should always keep Up*
the number of officers and sea-
men, but,.at the same time, it was usual to lower the
armaments in time of peace, and it was for the Cabinet
to decide, upon a calculation of the chances of war, Whe-
the it 'was necessary to have a large fleet, or
only • a small oae.—(Hear.) Every officer in the navy
stated that the greatest inconvenience arose from having_
the ships undermanned. He had always thought'that it
was better to have_one ship efficiently manned than two_
imperfectly,—(Hear, hear.) - With reference to the
observations of the Noble Lord the Member for the City
of London, he must say that although the force was not
a large one, it was respectable, and, as he had already_
said, it was for the Cabinet to judge whether there was
any chance of war or-not, and to act accordingly. The
Gallant'COmmodore had referred tolhe sending out of.
marines in the Caledonia. The marines having been
used tOthe great
guns were quite. as competent to Man
them as the seamen,
and therefore they had taken 150
of ettch. All their shipS now , carried very much
heavier guns than :they did formerly, and, it
was very necessary that they should be efficiently
manned: With very few exceptions the reports male
to the "Admiralty; in reference to the ships which had re-
turned home, were perfectly satisfactery. .Th'ey had
taken the engines out of the larger steam-vessels, and
put thein into smaller-ones, while for the former larger
engines had beea provided:: The Gallant Officer com-
plained of the want.of experience on the part of the lieu-
tenants of the navy. Why, almost every captain, on re-
turning home, told the Admiralty that there had never .
been such goodofficers.—(Hear, hear.) . He (Sir George
Cockburn) .firmly- believed that both ships , and officers
were in good condition. They had a very considerable
force On every station, although, as they had the interest
of the British merchant to look to in every part of the
world, their force was much subdivided. It was true that
_France had fifteen sail of the line inahe Mediterranean,
but England had:more ships ready; fOr sea than France
had both on the stocks and at sea. With regard to the
long time which it took to man vessels, he begged to ob-
serve that the officers were very careful in their selection
of seamen, refusing as many as they received, in order to
secure an efficient force. He believed that if they had a
war with France, or any other maritime power, they had
quite force enough for that purpose.
Mr. M 3RE O'FERRALL was exceedingly surprised
at the manner in which the Right Hon Gentleman had
treated the remarks of his Right Hon. Friend. Nothing
could be niore natural than that having been connectta
With the late Government, as he had been, he should
take an interest in such a question.—(Hear, hear.) The
year 1838 had been -particularly referred to, and he
begged to refer to the opinion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir R. reel) expressed at that time. The
Right Hon. Gentleman complained at that time that
there was but one brig in the vicinity of the French
fleet at the time when it was in the neighbourhood of
Mexico. Four ships were on their way at that very
time, and they were only detained by adverse winds,
over which the Government had no control. A state of
things now existed as regarded the Mediterranean
which was very similar to that in question.—(Hear,
hear.) The Gallant Officer who had just addressed the
House had compared the complement of men in 1838.
Hewes prepared to show that the war complement fixed
by the present Board of Admiralty was less that that
fixed by the late one. Take the example of two ships,
the Collingwood of 80 and the Rodney of 92. What was
the number of men fixed by the present regulations for
those two ships? - Why precisely the same under the
late Admiralty for ships of 80 and of 92 guns-759 men.
He denied that the larger class of ships were so well
manned now as they were under the late Government.
After all the results were the things to be looked at.
Now, he would first state to the House what were the
complaints of men in some of the great naval actions. In
Lord St. Vincent's action there were five 74-gun ships,
with an average of 575 men. In Lord Duncan's action, the
average was 554 to every 74. In the action at Trafal-
gar, Lord Nelson had sixteen third-rates, with an average
of 563 men each. Now a great deal had been
said of the wretched way in which the Mediterranean
fleet had been manned under the late Government,
and yet it appeared from the returns that, in 1840, the
the third-rates in the Mediterranean averaged 628 men
each, while French ships of the same class had only 598
men. Now he would ask if the calumnies which had
been uttered against the late Admiralty were fair or just?
Another accusation which had been brought against the
late Government was that they did not keep up a still-
cient force at home. The Right Hon. Baronet had said
that seven sail of the line was too small a force to de-

Among other improvements which the present Govern
ment had introduced; was the-making- a-marine-corps-of-
artillery.—(Cheers.) The men of. this corps were effec-
tive and vigorous men, and were in addition to the usual
complement of marines allowed to each ship.. The flag-
ships were sent ont every year fully manned.' The Hon.
Gentleman had' said that, according to the plan of the
last Government, none of these ships ought to sail with-
out a complement of 800 men. Now he could under-
take to say, ,that no ship under the late Government
had ever sailed with that full complement, and it did
not signify what ahe ought to have had, but what she
actually had. The -present Government had increased
the actual complement. There were three ships more in
commission, and 2,000 men more employed, than in
1839. He thought the motion unnecessary, and should
oppose it.
Captain PECHELL exclaimed against the mode of
budding war-ships—the' preient war- strainers were
awkward and unmanageable, and the most effiCient 'of
4hern had been employed in Ireland collecting poor-
rates.
Mr. ROSS said a few words ; after which,
Lord PALMERSTON said the House was much in-
debted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the motion he
had made. He did not think, after all, that it was open,
to the objections which the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Governmen had made against it. In fact,
the Right Hon. Baronet in the commencement of his
speech confined his critical observations not to the mo-
tion which had been made, but to the motion which had
not been made. The motion of which his Right Hon.
Friend had given notice had not even been pet on the
books. He was willing to admit that the present motion
was preferable to the former ; hut he did not
think the former motion deserved the censure the Right
Hon. Baronet had cast upon it. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said it was a motion to inquire into the manner
in which the French became possessed of Algiers, and
added, that a motion in the French Chambers to inquire
how the British became possessed of llong-Kong would
be a legitimate course. Now, he (Lord Palmerston)
thought there would be the greatest possible difference
between those two motions. It should be recollected, that
if a motion were made to inquire into the mode in which
the French became possessed of Algiers, it would be for
the purpose of ascertaining the conduct, not of the
French, 'but of the English Government. No such
grounds existed with respect to Hong-Kong, and, there-
fore, he held 'the cases to be entirely different. His
Right Hon. Friend had been found fault with by sortie
for starting a question of such a delicate nature as this
while negotiations were still going on between England
and France; and it was said by the Hon. Member for
Lyrnington, 'that, considering there was a party in
France who were anxious for war with England, who
were likely to overpower the Government of France,
and compel that country to go into a war
with England. That being the ease, it was very
inexpedient in that House to discuss our foreign
interests, or to inquire whether our naval establish-
ment was in a position to meet any Sudden emergency.
He (Lord Palmerston) utterly denied the force of that
argument, and on the contrary, if such an argument
were propounded on the fact of the existence of such a
party in any other country, that argument would rather
lead to the opposite conclusion than that which had
been drawn from it; for, assuming that in France or, any
Other country, there was a party likely to overpower the
Government of that country, and to compel that country
to commence war with England—so far from that being
a reason for this country being silent on the subject, he
thought it was a reason fur additional vigilance on the
part of the Government in securing the means of meeting
such an emergency. He discarded from him the considera-
tion of suchacircumstance. He thought that House ought
not to permit itself .to be debarred from looking to the
interests of this country, whether those interests
sisted of foreign commercial relations, or the means of
military defence, by any consideration as to the feelings
of persons in any foreign country. He hoped they would
always abstain from unnecessarily wounding the feelings
of any party or any country, or unnecessarily producing
irritation in our own; but he held that the interest of
England ought to be a paramount consideration; and it
was not becoming in that House to be deterred
from entering into the consideration of the conduct
of a Government by -speculations as to how
it might agree with the feelings of this or that Govern-
ment, or the opinions of this or that party in any coun-
try. His (Lord Palmerston's) Right Hon. Friend had
taken a course which was perfectly legitimate. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite chose to assume that
his iiight Hon. Friend had argued that the present Go-
vernment or the late Government ought to have called
upon France to evacuate Algiers. His Right Hon.
Friend had used no such argument. His argument was,
that looking at the negotiations which had taken place
in 1830 between the British Government and the Go-
vernmefit of France,. with respect to Algiers, looking to
those negotiations, the Government of that day had not
properly performed their duty in getting security from
the Government of France; and, therefore, confidence
could not be placed in the energy and the vigilance of
the Government with regard to those negotiations. He
thought that argument a perfectly fair one, and if any
body would take the trouble of - reading those papers
which were laid before Parliament in the year 1839,
which were very short on the negotiations respecting
Algiers ; they would see that this country had failed
entirely in extracting from the Government of France
those engagements which were important to be obtained.
He thought they had a right to require
from the Government of France engagements,
formal, official, written engagements that, in
the event of the overthrow of the Regency
of Algiers, the French should not obtain any permanent
internal advantages or aggrandisements in Africa. As-
surances were given verbally, and everybody knew that
verbal assurances went for nothing, and were binding
upon nobody but the man that made them. The Go-
vernment of this country pressed the Government of
France to give written assurances, and that Government
wrote a dispatch to their Ambassador here, in which
they stated that, in the event of success, they would
make their views subservient to the wishes of their allks
with regard to the arrangement of the affairs of the ex-
isting Regency. The Government of this country still
pressed for written and specific declarations, but nothing
more specific was received from the Government of
France, and the expedition sailed without any specific and
written declaration being made. That expedition was
successful, and upon. hearing of this, what did our Am-
bassador at Paris do ? On hearing of the success of the,
expeditia, he waited on Prince Polignac, and
congratulated him upon the event, and expressed
a hope that now they had succeeded in their
expedition they would not fly from those as-
surances which they had given before the
expedition sailed. Was that the language which ought
to have been used by our Ambassador ? Prince Polignac
assured them that France had no inclination to depart
from her promises. If proper negotiations had been
entered into before the expedition sailed this would not
have been the language used by either party. It might
be said that the Government of that day were actuated
by a desire to keep in office the Ministry of Prince
Polignac, and by a desire to do something useful to the
dynasty then reigning. But everybody knew long before
the change took place which overthrew that dynasty
that it was inevitable: In the January preceding there
was no man who walked the streets of Paris who did not
well know what was about to happen ; but the existing
Government in this country did not attempt to obtain
any specific declaration in the four months succeeding
the change. Was it for them (the late Government),
when they came into office in 1830, to take up a question
that bad been left in that state by those who had gone
before them? Considering the existing state of Europe,
they did not think it was consistent with the interests of
this country that they should call upon France to eva-
cuate a country which they had lately conquered,
and conquered without any interference on the part of
the preceding Government. But the Right Hon. Gentle-
man himself had' said that he did not impute any blame
to the late Government, And, therefore, it was not neces-
sary for him to defend himself or his colleagues in any
way on that point. He quite agreed with the Right
Hon. Gentleman that it was not expedient to go into
any details upon this question, as he knew how expres-
sions which fell from persons in office were caught at and
used injuriously to the public interest. He ab-
stained from entering into that question. It was,
however, one of great importance.—(Hear, hear.)
Much had been said with respect to the state of the
navy, the result of which was this:—The Gentlemen on
the other side when they sat on this were perpetually
taunting the late' Government with neglecting the navy
of the country, by keeping it at so low an ebb as to
render it impossible to be effective. Why, at that time
they had twenty sail of the line, and yet at the present
moment, when by their own admission grave and serious
matters, which might lead to unpleasant results, were
under negotiation, they had only nine sail of the line,
three of which were in distant seoantries, so that
they had in fact only six sail of the line
in England. The present Government had not
carried out in office those principles of national
protection which they loudly called for when out of
office. Gentlemen on the other side of the House en-
deavoured to explain why this country had so few ships
of the line by stating that several were in China, hut
that was no excuse for the navy being in the state it was
at the present moment, Then it was said that if there
were not leo many ships as there should be, they were
full of men. Why, they had been told thtit in somo &mall
ships they had so many men that they could not work.
This, he thought, showed that the present Administration
was net of a very judicious character. The late Go-
vernment had left the present 1# force larger than
they mild want, and their business was to let
that force down to what they thought proper, but
that they had not done. A proper naval force was, in
his opinion, the best economy for England, because the
time might arise when it would be nt.c.•asAary.. What, be
would ask, was better celeulated to prevent other coml.
treatillfg Erigland with insult, than the keep-
pig up of a sufficient naval force ? Re trusted that what
had passed that evenir.g, and the observations that had
ben made on a former occasion, would lead the Governs
icent to take a different view with respect to Chase mat-
ters, and that in future they would hive a naval force,
such es would b?, considered proper for a peace estab-
lishment. Such an establishment could not be wasis
dered as a defiance to any country in than. world,—it
was simply a defensive e,ystem ef pbliey. Such an es-
tablishment was necessary, in order to keep un good,
nncleistanding With, every other country in the world.
Whether his Right Hon. Friend weuld press his taus
tion to a division he knew not, hut he thought his object
had Isffisn attained' liy the discussion that had taken
place. He thustdeprecate the imputations that had been
dist against his Right Hon. Friend of e;clssysuring to
prevent a good slnclerssatidieg between this country
014 IfromF? whg‘liur4 thattall- wild knew Lim- rou,t
1116 well avtire that he had no ekieh tltijoet in
vim.
The ItyPOdnimC ":;is then withdrawn.

fend our own ports; yet at present there was no flag ship
at Sheerness.—(llear, hear.) It was stated, in the debate
of 1839, that Sheerness might be burned, and the Admi-
ralty aroused from their slumbers by the appearance of a
hostile fleeton our coast—that our liberties and our exi,-

tence were in danger. It feet it was almost impossible
to over state all the nonsense that was uttered upon the
subject,and he trusted that no Opposition would hereafter
be guilty of conduct so disgraceful. He had no hesitation
in saying that he apprehended no more danger to
Sheerness, from there being no flag-ship there, than lie
should be for the old palace of St. James's if the cap-
tain's guard were withdrawn. It had been on old cus-
tom to maintain a flag-ship at our naval arsenals,
and a captain's guard at our palaces—not that any clang e•
was apprehended • but what opinion would they enter-
tain of a Commander-in-Chief if he had so reduced:our
forces as not to be able to afford a captain's guard to
her Majesty's palaces, or a sentinel at the dock-yard
gates? Yet that was what the Ministry bad done at tie
present moment, when it was apparent from the cautious
manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman that our foreign
relations were not so satisfactory as could have been
wished. The late GovernMent had also been charged
with neglecting the building of ships. If the present
Government had thought the statements they made
when out of office correct, why did they not remedy the
error when they came into office ? Almost the first
thing they did was to reduce the estimates. The late
Ministry left twenty-six sail of the line at sea; and all
the yards at full work. A programme was laid down,
by which each shipwright was required to produce a
certain quantity of work in the year. In that year it
had been calculated that eight steamers would be
built. Three had been launched, two were ready
for launching, and three were on the stocks, and
would have been launched during the • course
of the financial year. They had taken a large
vote for steam, and the present Government had diverted
10,0001. of it to another object—the providing means to
extinguish fires in dock-yards, which might have been
provided for by a separate vote in the following year.
There was a deficiency
of two-deckers in the navy, and
oee had been set up, hut the Gallant Officer opposite
Filled that one clown, set a three-decker up, which was
not wanted, and now, at the end of three years that
three-docker was not more advanced than the two-decker
was when it was pulled down. The Gallant Officer said
that they had produced fifteen steamers, and he
_recol-
lected arming them a frigate, which had been converted
fact, the Gallant Officer wished to turn everything
into the system of thirty years ago. A great deal had
been paid on
the subject of their employing pensioners
on board ship.
At the present moment there were from
twenty to thirty decrepid old pensioners on board the
St. Vincent. •
Mr. S. HERBERT—No, no.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL was glad to hear it.
All he could say was that he had his informa-
tion from a gentleman, who stated that he had con-
versed with one of these decrepid old men, who
had stated to his informant that he had been at sea 40
years. He hoped he had not offended any foreign
power by his observations. It was not necessary to
make ,any boast of our force; there was no boast so
powerful as telling the truth. He had observed with
surprise an article on this subject in a Government
newspaper, which could not have proceeded from the
pen of a newspaper editor, and which, he hoped, had not
proceeded from that of a Government official, giving a
list of ships. Now, surely it was not necessary, in order
to make a show, to put in our list the names of sheer
hulks, and vessels avowedly useless. Our real force was
about 5& sail of the line, which could be got ready for
sea in five or six months at most ; and that was double
Gallanttrheehealleei
dr
Perseus force
jeep,v o other two countries. But his Hon. and
h
oaers nker whet was the use of ships, if we
off the Tower for the purpose of re-
'Under the late Government the
but the present Board of Admiralty had
her,—(Marks of dissent from Sir
George Cockburn.) Ile was very glad to find such was
not the case. There was a Bill before the House for the
eiays
had not
Flrl of
giosoe
tt auk'r i
m nl r
id
of
registration of seamen—a most useful measure, although
he feared its provisions were too complicated. He should
like to see sailorehemes in all our great ports tinder
the protection of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Every
sailor was liable to impressment, and consequently hail
a claim epon the public ; and if they provided him with
a home in every pert when he was ashore, they wetild
be conferring a great twnefit upon him, and doing that
which might be of great advantage to the naval service
of the coueteet
tr. WSW TIPRBp4T ;said the circumstances
re different in 1-83 from what they were at present.
We tVere teen at the commencement of those differences
w'hieh lee to the Syrian wee ,• enetthe argument of his
ikegVi Mee Friend had been that if it were necessary to
keep up such a large fleet in the Mediteeeeneae, it wee
&deo the manning of the Col-
a proper force hemp. 'rite
'Nil le could stetp, on the authority the
captain of the Col ingwoied, 'that his difficulty was net in
procuring, but in selecting men. The Noble Lord, the
Tepee during the two year in which they had
linielillse:nuiW.llb6°€e:rsellen:tioaerl'lnYL4oon:aeoAen:°uhlriad asked him about the ships
been in they had put flinty ships of the Erie in it
state of efficiency: "
KE I !I, , ,
Sir C. NAR—Thet's not ship-building. -
elle e'llMiel( tlteleßle bps it lea§ equivee
4 14 tg building PPY slops. With regard to the -ewe,.
—eye. tittles Hope 491qe1110111w to the State of our steam
naey, he would observe that when tue press..., y
came into power the steam navy consisted' of 14,000
horse power, and it new eelesieted of ?mop horse power.
They had also increased t e number of 50-gun frigates,

COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PRUSSIA.
I Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had sow thaw .9,11U,e.
'yen notice of hi intention tcs move fir the correspond.
el-to oat had taken place between the Prussian Govern-

ment and England relative to our commercial relations
are.wished-setosv— t0....kn0w whether...the _Right Hun.
Gentleman would be enabled to lay them on the table
before the end of the Session ? ' "
Mr. GLADSTONE said he was afraid he could not
produce them before the end. of the session.,
._ROYAL ACADEMY. •
• Mr. -HUME then moved for an humble Address to
her Majesty, " That, as patroness and comptroller of
the Royal Academy. of Arts; she will be graciously
pleased to take into consideration the laws and regula-
tionssof that institution, with a view of rendering it
more conducive to the advancement of the fine arts,
better suited to the spirit • and. circumstances . of,
the present age, and more consonant with the original
intention of. its royal founders George: the Third.'
In bringing forward this, motion he wished it to be
shown that there was a desire to promote the fine arts
in this country. The Royal Academy had, in his'
opinion, abused thepatronage of the Crown. George
the Third- intended .that it should be open. to all, but
that intention had been altered by time. The trial that
bad been given to the artists for decorations for the
New `Houses of Parlianient had done more for the arts
in this country than the Royal Academy ever since its
institution. It was founded on an erroneous principle,
as being seif-elected, and gave no chance'to rising artists.
Ile referred again to the original 'institution of the
Academy, and contended that it 'was meant to be 01,LTI
to the. public; he expressed his deep regret that this
state of things should continue, and concludd by moving
his resolution, leaving the House to deal with it as it
thought fit. • • -
- Sir ROBERT PEEL much regretted that the
Honourable Gentleman had not had the opportunity
of bringing forward his - motion at an earlier period,
he (Sir R. Peel) might have been able more fully to
have expressed his strong sense of • the obligations under
which This country was to . the institution of which the
-Hon. • Member had spoken so unjustly. The ' Hon.
Member bad mentioned the audacity of the President. of
the institution in having given an opinion as to the
exclusion of the public. Now the Hon. Member 'ought
not to have spoken in those terms of the delivery of an
opinion by an honourable man, perfectly independent of
the Hon. Members of this House, who received no salary
for the duties he performed, and who devoted the whele
of his time to the performance .of those public duties ;
and all who were acquainted with the manner in which
Sir Martin Arthur. Shea discharged those duties must be
aware of his ability and zeal. The Hon. Member said
there had been a departure of the Royal Academy from
the original conditions on which it had been founded.
Now he held in his hand. the original charter, granted
by George 111. in 1768, in which the number of the
members of the Academy was prescribed at forty,
having the power to elect their successors, there being a
provision for the public exhibition of paintings;
and by the 17th article it was evident that that
exhibition was not. to' be gratuitous, since •it
was provided that the profits arising from that
'exhibition should be applied to the purposes of the Aca-
demy, after deducting 200 L for indigent artists and their
families. He affirmed that it was to the Royal Academy,.
and not to the House of Commons, that the country was
indebted for a national school of art. The whole con- ,
nexion which the Legislature had with the Royal
Academy was the adhering to the original charter, by
providing the Academy with-apartments.- George. 111.
granted' it apartments in Somerset House, and they'cen-
tinued there till the Government appropriated Somerset
Ileuse for another purpose. Earl Grey gave them apart-
ments in the building, part of which was appropriated to
the National Gallery. They did not ask for those rooms—
they did not petition for them ; they merely received.
what had been secured to them by sixty years' usage ;
and this did not give any Member of that House a right
to visit them with that annoyance which the Hon. Gen-
tleman had done. The Academy had spent no less than
300,0001. in the promotion of art. The Academy, from
its own means, provided a professor of painting, of sculp-
ture, and anatomy—not for their own purposes, but for
the general advantage of the arts. It gave gratuitous
admission to its lectures to all who chose to attend them,
and at its own expense it educated no less than 2,000
artists men who earned their money by the
hardest labour, commenced at• the earliest period
of their existence. Having done all this, it was
too much for the Honburable Gentleman to turn
round upon them and call them monopolists,
and visit them with such censure merely because the
Houseprovided them with the accommodation of certain
rooms. But the Academy also provided pensions for
decayed artists. From whom did Wilson receive sup-
port in the decline of his life ? Not from the public
who supported the widow of Hogarth and the widow of
the celebrated engraver Woollet. 'Not from the Crown.
Not from the Civil List. Not from Parliament. But
from those funds which were appropriated to this pur-
pose. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman what would
be the consequence if they carried their interference too
far. They would have no man, like Sir Francis Chantrey, I
making a bequest, which was really a national
one, though given to the Academy, because
he felt it was a body independent of Parlia-
ment, and not subjected to continual interference.
Even the expense of an annual dinner was borne out
of the funds. If they might judge of the institution,
not merely by the eminence of the men who belonged to
it, but by their moral character, he thought he could
not speak of it in too high terms. 'He had been brought
much into intercourse with the members, and he knew
the difficulties with which they :haktO'contend. in un-
prosperous times. He saw them -hlways exhibiting the
feelings and maintaining the- of'genile
men, and he did not knovv,iany -cies& iwitichvought to
stand higher in public opinion.: dittlicitiOhat that
House would not sanction the:assault Made upon the
Royal Academy by the Hon. Gentleman'. The Royal
Academy entertained great respect for that House; but
they would infinitely rather sever all connection withyar-
liament and with the Government, if they could only re-
tabs their present apartments on the condition of
being subject to constant interference. He saw Gen,
tlemen opposed to him in politics, who had had
as frequent opportunities of judging of the merits of this
institution as himself, and he trusted that they would
join with him in deprecating this annual interference—
that they would permit the Royal Academy to pursue
the honourable tenour of its way, and not risk the evil
consequences which he believed would arise to art in
this country if they undertook to carry too far the prin-
ciple of interference 'with that institution.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, after what the Right
Hon. Gentleman had so. well said, he would only address
a. few words to the House on the subject. He really
thought the Hon. Gentleman had no case whatever, un-
less he could show that the public had contributed
largely to the, support of this institution, and even- if
that were the ease, it would be impossible to give a more
satisfactory answer to the Hon. Gentleman than he
had received from the Right Hon. Baronet. The Hon.
Gentleman said that two-thirds of the pictures in this
exhibition were contributed by those-who did not belong
to the Academy. Why, if they asked those who visited
the Academy which pictures attracted most attention,
they would find that they were generally the pictures of
those who either were, or soon became, members of the
Academy.—(Hear, hear.) He was really surprised that
the Hon. Gentleman would go on agitating this question.
He hoped that those who were so deserving of the
public respect would not feel hurt at the manner in
which this question was being continually discussed.
He was sure the great majority of that House wished to,
see them continue in the same honourable course which
they had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said there was no country
which was provided with such an admirable school for
art without any expense, nor was there any country in
which the Government, as a, Government, contributed
so little to art. Any one who had been to see the exhi-
bition now taking place in Westminster-hall, must have
been struck with the great quantity of talent in sculpture
which that exhibition-displayed ; and; on the other
hand, any one who went to Trafalgar-square must per-
Ceive how inadequate was the space provided there for
the splendid models which required,to.he exhibited.—
(Hear, hear.) Everybody was aware of the lively in-
Serest which the Rightlien. Barenet at„the head of the
Government felt in works cu' art, and he heeled that be-
tween that period and next year 'he would,devise some
means by which -this opportunity for the display of
public works would be greatly enlarged.-e-(Hear.)
Mr. HUME then read a dos:unseat .of the Royal
Academy, stating that up to the 12th exhibition nothing
was charged for admission. He could give a very
different account of the institution and of the advantages,
derived from it from that which the House had heard ;
but he would not trespass on the attention of the House.
Sir R. PEEL wished to explain the circumstances to
which the Hon. Gcuntieman had referred. George the
Third* seeing that the public would give nothing to this
institution for several years after it commenced gave to
it 5,0001 a year ; and that was continued until the Aca-
demy informed his Majesty that they could support
'themselves by means of the exhibition,
The motion was then negatived without a division.
SUPPLY.
The House then went into COnamittee of Supply.
On the motion fer granting 4,4111. for the schools of
design,
Mr. WILLI4MS expressed his approbation of the VON
Mr. FtWki. complained that two Members of that
Ilouse had been refused admission to the Royal Ace-
clamy, He thought that was the height of impudencse
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman was eo good a
judge of impudence, that he would not dispute with him
on that_point.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME said he would not be deterred by any ob-
servations of that kind from continuing to pursue that
course which he conceived to be right.
Mr. WYSE would remind the Right Hon. Baronet of
what had passed on a former occasion, as to the pro-
priety of opening a gallery for the exhibition of casts
from sculpture. He had received two petitions for pre..
sentation on that subject, one Vona the society in ,
and one from Lend," Ile believed that with the sub,
scriptions anti the donations which would be received, a
'very small sum would be sufficient to forro such a
gallery.--The vote wat then agreed ta.
A vote of 2,000, for the salaries a certain professors
in the Vnisersities of Oxford and Cambridge was then
rced to.
On a vote of 5,,a451 being proposed for the salaries of
professors in Scotch Universities,
Mr, HUME said that be approved of this vote, because
an account VMS furnished as to the manner in which the
money was expended, which was not the case with the
vote to Oxford- and Cambridge, and of that vote, there-
fore, he disapproved.--The vote was then agreed to. -
..A vote of 6,5004 was proposed for the Port Patrick
harbour.
HM thought the vote of last year was to have
Convicted he work.
Sir GEORGE CLERK explained that this was the
balance which last year it had been stated would be
necessary to complete the work.
I.pfd NEWRY asked if the Hon. Gentleman, had seen
! a report of Sir John Rennie's on this subject.
Sir GEORGE CLERK had seen such a report, but
the Government had been proceeding upon the report of
Mr. Walker.—The vote was then agreed to.