The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-29 00:00:00

during that time, he had never heard the Right Hon. Baronet
say any thing inconsistent with such a course.—( Hear, hear. )
He (Lord Norreys) would ask where were now those Hon.
Members of that House who used language out of ,hat House
in reference to this measure, which they had not the manliness
to use within it ? He should say for himself that he had never,
when on the Opposition side of the Clouse, given his vote
against the grant to llaynooth, because he looko upon such a
course as unchristian, and, therefore, he would eg to say that
he would now give the proposed measure his most cordial and
unqualified support.—( Cheers. )
Lord DALMEN Y said he intended to give his vote in
favour of this measure ; and, in doing so, he wished to explain

what some persons might, perhaps, terra his apparent incon-
sistency. In his opinion, this proposed increase on the grant
to Maynooth was the emanation of an enlightened ministry-,
and one which would prove most beneficial in its results to Ire-
land, while, on the other hand, its rejection would be attended
with the most serious consequences. He could not hesitate to
give his support in :avour of this measure, because he leoked
upon it not only as one of the wisest, but most judicious pieces
of legislation that had ever been passed in reference to Ireland
since the removal of the Cathoiic disabilities. He had heard it

said that this had been given, not so much as a boon, as an indi-
cation of a continued series of conciliatory measures. He quite
concurred in that, for his own firm conviction was that conces-

sion should be continued to be made so long as a grievance re-
mained unredressed in that country.—(Cheers.) Some Hon.
Members had said that even for this measure Ireland would

not be grateful, but was it because Ireland was ungrateful Eng-
land should be ungenerous ?—( Hear.) But he denied that Ireland
was ungrateful, for they had already seen this measure hailed
with gratitude as a boon in that country.—( Hear, hear. )
But even if it should not be, why had the Irish people not a
right to it ? How could he consider that they had not, when
he remembered how his forefathers in Scotland resisted to the
death the attempt to force upon them a strange faith ?
( Hear, hear.) Much had been said about the agitation that
had existed in Ireland; but had there been none in Eng-
land? And why should that which had been deemed a virtue
in England be termed a vice in Ireland ? Why should what
was regarded as resistance to oppression here be termed tumult
there ; or why should love of liberty here be attempted to be
put down there ?—( Hear, hear.) He would not utter
one word that might be considered as partaking
of partisanship, but this he would say, that if this
act on the part of the Right Honourable Baronet
opposite had been deemed by some as an act of apos-
tacy, he would say that it was an apostacy from bigotry to
truth, and from doubt to consistency. Aad the Right Hon.
Baronet now came boldly forward, resolved to stand or fall by
the case he had made out. He (Lord Dalmeny) would not
further detain the Howse than by saying, that he felt convinced
that many of his censituents were as hostile to this measure as
he was friendly to it, but he would ask, was he to think of his
own private or personal interests, when those of the common-
wealth were at stake ? No ; on the contrary, he would say:that
even if his vote upon this measure were to deprive him for ever
of his seat, perish all his aspirations after ambition, rather than
not act with justice to lreland.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Sir C. DOUGLAS, who spoke in a very low tone of voice,
was understood to say, that he would support the measure.
He said he could see no difference between supporting it now,
and supporting it for the last fifty years, except that the pre-
sent measure promised to be more efficacious. They must
look upon the Catholic Church as the church of the majority,
and as such it was entitled to support. This was one of the
reasons why he supported the Bill. He believed it would
have the effect of cementing the union between England and
Ireland, which it was their duty to maintain. He had pre-
sented petitions against this measure, and many from his
constituents. He could not, however, support the prayer
of those petitions, for he considered this Bill as nothing more
than an honest attempt to carry out a spirit of conciliation to
Ireland. He should give the Bill his cordial support.
Mr. HAWES, for one, would not take upon himself the
responsibility of supporting a proposition to make the question
a subject for annual discussion. He had given the present
measure the fullest consideration, and he had come to the con-
clusion of giving it his support. Ireland was a Catholic
country, and as such it must be governed. This measure was
opening up a new course of policy in this respect to Ireland.
Ile believed that it would lead to a great reform of the Pro-
testant establishment in Ireland, and that reform would cement
the union between the two countries, and would give security
to both. This Bill was carrying out the principle of the ap-
propriation clause, and he believed that the people of this
country would ere long view that measure with much greater
favour than they did now. As a money grant this measure was
quite trifling; but he believed that it would be large in its
effects. An objection had been raised to this grant on religious
grounds, but how such a line of argument could be supported
he could not understand. This country had supported schools
in India where Christianity was net professed. This country
had made grants for conducting the schools of the Hindeos,
and various ether grants of a similar nature might be found on
reference to the records of the East India Company. He be-
lieved that it was too late to object to this grant on
religious grounds. The grant must be looked upon as
for educational purposes. The College of Maynooth
was for the education of both the clergy and laity. He
could not either see how this grant was to be objected to
by the advocates of the voluntary principle. He could under-
stand an objection from such a quarter, if by this grant it was
proposed to-better the principles that were to be inculcated at
the College of Maynooth, but this was not attempted ; conse-
quently, this grant must be looked upon in the light of private
endowment, and therefore in accordance with the voluntary
principle. He believed that this Bill was far better calculated
to advance religious principles than any measure which had
been proposed for several years past. On these general grounds,
he should give the measure of the Government his warmest
support.
Mr. HINDLEY respected the sincerity of the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down more than he admired the argu-
ments which he had advanced. He believed that the Hon.
Gentleman's constituents would not support him in the course
he had taken. The Hon. Gentleman said he would not sup-
port an anneal discussion of this question. Why, this declara-
tion was in opposition to the principles of the Honourable
Gentleman himself, formally advanced by him, with re-
spect to annual Parliaments. The argument against
the annual grant to Maynooth would apply as strongly
if used against the proposition for annual Parliaments.
lie did net think that he and others who opposed the measure
could be accused of intolerance, for he would be as ready to
oppose the endowment of the Church to which he belonged,
which was not like the Church of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Dungarvon, the most numererous Church in
the world, but the smallest Church in the world. He declared
that he would rather vote for a repeal of the union than the
present measure, because he believed that the principle in-
volved in this measure was of more consequence.—(Laughter. )
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon said
that, if this measure were lost, Ashton-under-Lyne would be
illuminated. He (Mr. Hindley) would only say in reply that
he always voted for justice to Ireland in that House, and he
believed that, if justice were done to Ireland, Ashton would be
illuminated for a month.—( Hear, and a laugh.) He did not
think it was fair, therefore, to accuse the dissenters of England,
who supported their own religion and their own ministers,
of bigotry and intolerance. It was no wonder that they should
feel alarmed after the declaration of the Noble Lord the Mem
ber for Liverpool, the Noble Lord the Member for London, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark. After those
declarations it became a very natural question to inquire if this
measure was to end in itself, or if it was to be the first of a
series of measures ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baro-
net ought to be more explicit, and promulgate the scope of his
whole policy with respect to Ireland.—(Hear hear.) If this
measure were not to be followed up by others, then false hopes
were raised in the minds of the people of Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) If it were to be followed by others, then the fears of
the people of England were not half as great as they ought to
be.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Queen was to be sent to
Ireland with gilt gingerbread, but the people of Ireland would
indeed be children if they were satisfied with such measures as
were proposed for their benefit. He would bid higher and go
further than the Prime Minister to conciliate the people of
Ireland, and though at the present moment they might witness
repentant cries and remorse—(Cheers)—yet he and others
who opposed this measure showed that they were better friends
to Ireland than those who made such high professions now. He
remembered, on one occasion, when the Hon. and Gallant
Member for Lincoln proposed the discontinuance of the grant
of 9,000/. a year, in which he was supported by the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Sligo, and the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Armagh, that Mr. O'Connell said he would divide with the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, if he pressed his mo-
tion to a division, for the Roman Catholic religion did not de-
pend on this paltry grant, and he said also that he was of opi-
nion that every religion should support itself, and then, in one
of those flashes of wit, never surpassed even by him, he said,
" Oh, those Gallant Colonel, they are the Church Militant,
and, if I may venture a parody on them, I would say—
Three colonels in three distant counties born,
Lincoln, Armagh, and Sligo did adorn,
The first in gravity of face surpassed—
In jollity the next—sobriety the last.
The force of nature could no further go,
To beard the one, she shaved the other two.
—(Much laughter. ) He would beg of them not to spend
their time in squabbles respecting differences of religious
opinion—( Ironical cheers)—but he would ask what right had
they to put their hands into the Dissenters' pockets, and call
upon them to pay for an establishment while they were ready
and willing and able to pay for their own religion ?—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, always
spoke in a bold and manly manner, and he was the only person
who attacked the voluntary principle. Others, indeed, said it
was impracticable, but the Noble Lord said it was not efficient.
Now, he believed that the voluntary principle would be more
practicable than the present measure. He believed that they
could carry out the voluntary principle in Ireland, but they
would never be able to govern Ireland as long as a dominant
Church was supported for the minority. Then as to the
efficiency of the voluntary principle, he would only say that
935,000/. was the amount of money paid for the maintenance
of the ministers of the Dissenting bodies, and at the present
tim he believed it amounted to 1,100,0001. Then for the
exp nses of the purchase of ground, and building and law ex-
pen :es.
they subscribed a million annually, and the amount
subscribed for visiting societies and for the distribution of
tra ts and other local purposes, was estimated at 16t4,•2401.
Th .y also supported theological academies. By the Indepen-
der ts, as far as he was able to judge, two hundred and twenty
we •esupported at an expense of from 7,000/. to t,,000/. 'I he
Baptists and the Wesleyans supported similar esta-
blishments, and he believed that the cost of theo-
Etnhgalnand3twl,oaoos,
He was g
logical educationithat
twhaes
glad It.cs al) per
certainan n uemx
Chnuortchleosfs
new churches by
the Church of England was able to build ten
tent, also adopting the voluntary principle. In Manchester
it ; and in his own neighbourhood there were four or five new
lion• Friend the Member for Oxford would
churches. His
He
d leave it to rest on the voluntary prnciple .
consent to give up the connexion of the Church with the
State, an i
all the
vigour as if it abas4oned its crutches and walked with G - believed the Church of England would never display so much
1
tleman the Member for Newark said this measure was on
y
vitality and power Of religion itself. The Right lion. en
6d. in the pound, and that it ought to be 20s. He agreed
with him in that, but he combated the principle altogether of
a State nonnexion with the Church. He thought that the
Right Hon. Baronet had taken a step in the wrong direction,
ai7!l he would, therefore, give the motion every opposition in
his power. —(dear, hear. )
Mr. ROUND eaid he could not see any religious grounds to
prevent him, as a Proteetant, from voting in favour of her
Majesty's Government. He believed education in Maynooth
was limited, and ought to be extended. He thought that, from
an improved,system of education, the people would become more
moral and more loyal. He looked upon this question as a
question whether there should be an union or a repeal,—( Hear,
hear.) He was confident that if they rejected this measure it
would give an irresistible impulse to repeal.—(liear, hear.) lie
was sure the Roman Catholics would receive with a grateful
return a measure offered with confident liberality. He did not
place much confidence in the declaration of the arch-agitator of
Ireland, but he placed great rel,anee in the deetaiatiusss of
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon, of the
Member for Roscommon, and of the Nalsle Lord the represes
sentative of the Howards, who spoke on this occasion the In-
timents of the Roman Catholic aristecracy of England. Be-
lieving that the measure was beneficial, end reck-
less what the consequence might be to himself, but
reserving to himself the free exercise of his judg-
ment respecting any ulterior measures that might be
brought forward, he should give the measure or her Majesty's
Ccivernment, founded, as he thought it was, upon justice, and
likely to bale ,beneficial consequences, not a weak or unhesitat-
mg, e voted r the second reading
ready anti a cordial support.—( Hear, hear.)
of the measure, because he believed Mrb.ußt OTHERTON *aiei 4.
if
-Nicety prqlot9 1,110