The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, 'TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 902 1844,

utmost endeavours to support them. He thought that
the total redemption of tithes ought to be one of the first
measures upon which the Government ought to deter-
mine. Without undertaking to dictate to Government
what they should do, he would only say that he would
support them to the utmost (,f his power, because lie
had the utmost confidence in them, and he would con-
tinue to give them his cordial and disinterested support.
Mr. JOHN O'BRIEN sail the time had arrived when
the Government could no longer temporise ; they must
either conciliate or subdue. The English Government
had hitherto rated Ireland as a subjugated people, who
rendered it (the GoV4rnment) powerful by their dissen-
sions. England had formed a union, which gave to her
an unwise domination, and neglected the oppor-
tunities of a wiser and more fruitful incorporation ;
but since that union, England had kept herself
in a state of cold and selfish isolation. For cen-
turies Ireland had been governed by the division of races,
and afterwards by the power which sectarian differences
gave to her rulers. The union came, and Ireland was
united, but not incorporated with the empire. The
Catholics were partially emancipated, but t hey felt that
freedom was not yet attained. They called for the
destruction of' those sectarian differences which formed
the most grevious part of their evils, and the most fruit-
ful source of British power. The British Government
maintained the Church of an opulent minority at the
expense of an impoverished and dissentient majority.
All these grievances compelled four-fifths of the people
of Ireland to rally under the comprehensive watchword
of Repeal. But the Imperial Parliament had the
power, if it had the will, to consign to repose the
awakened spirit of nationality. The national energies
were wasted in continual discussion, and the feelings of
domestic life were disturbed and irritated. The Roman
Catholics were denounced as unfit to discharge the
ordinary functions of free citizens.---(Hear, hear.) What
then were the people of Ireland to look to ? The Mem-
bers of the present Government were those Ministers
who said that they had commenced emancipation on
the combined consideration of expediency and in-
timidation.—(Hear, and cheers.) Whatever weight ex-
pediency might have had with them he for one was
convinced that intimidation had the greater force.—
(Great cheers.) The Irish people were reproached with -
conspiracy, but by measures of comprehensive redress
you can dissolve the combination.—(Cheers.) They
were reproached with agitation, but Magna Charta was
carried by agitation. The Bill of Rights was carried by
agitation. Trial by Jury was maintained by agitation.
The Presbyterian Church of Scotland was preserved by
agitation. The independence of the Irish Parliament in
'B2 was obtained by agitation, and the emancipation of the
Catholics was obtained by agitation.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. Member concluded by respectfully calling upon the
House to consummate the great Act of Emancipation
which was not yet completed—to carry to their councils
the awakened spirit of nationality—to temper its enthu-
siasm—and, if they would, to regulate its aberrations.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES having placed a notice
on the books, on the subject of Ireland, and that small
notice of his having merged in the larger proposition
now before the House, he trusted he should be allowed

to make a few remarks. They should be few, for he
promised the House he was not going to give the speech
he intended to have uttered had his own motion come
on.—(Laughter.) It was an unfortnnate thing that
they never could get a discussion on Ireland in that
House, which did not turn out to be of an exclusively
party character.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the Noble
Lord the Member for London had not confounded two
thing s—a criticism on the late trials, and afterwards an
essay on what ought to be the future government of
Ireland. They had been favoured with speeches on two
subjects which ought to have been kept widely distinct.
Although the question of the late trials bore very little
on the question of the future government of Ireland, it
had unfortunately been introduced, and had tainted the
whole debate with a violent party spirit. It was a
matter they all knew, and all grieved about, that the
law was so little respected in Ireland. But it ought not
to have happened to the Noble Lord to be a party to
bring the law into still less respect, as he had aimed to
do, by the remarks he indulged in, when speaking of
the recent prosecutions. He was reminded by the con-
duct of the Noble Lord of two lines in a work of

Dickens'.—(A laugh.)
Against the Bishop plead the Church's cause,
And from the Judges vindicate the laws.
And so, when giving what was real law and what judge-
made law, the Noble Lord should recollect that there
was hardly any case in which a person was found guilty
but what, according to his own opinion and statement, he
was so found, not on the law; but on some quibble of it.
—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) lie must say for the
Noble Lord, or for himself, neither of whom knew any-
thing whatever about the matter—(Great laughter)--to
speak in the irreverent and disrespectful way which
had been done of those trials was most improper.—

(Hear, hear.) He should have thought that the experi-
ence of office which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had had
might have taught them the difficulties which existed in
the way of a fair and impartial government of Ireland.
They ought also to know that if the measures which they
recommended were attempted to be carried into effect
they would destroy Government after, Government.
They all knew that Catholic emancipation was
carried by a combination of parties, and against
the opinion and the wishes of the English people.
—(Hear, hear.) The same feeling which so long
prevented and thwarted Catholic emancipation still
existed, and any endeavour at the present moment to
depress the Protestant Church, or enlarge the Catholic,
would meet with the most determined opposition. He
thought it, therefore, most impolitic and unwise that the
course opened by the Noble Lord (Russell), and followed
up to such an extent by the other Noble Lord (Howick),
and the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller),
should have been taken by them without a modi-
fication of the opinions of the people of England, which
could only be managed by the small processes—
(Laughter)which they all knew so well, and in time it
would be folly in a Government to propose any such
alterations as those suggested. If they were proposed
they would not be adopted—they would annihilate any
Government.—(Hear, hear.) Much blame rested on
the people of England for this state of things—more,
much more, than on the Government. Whatever evils
were in Ireland were owing to ourselves. If the
priests were violent it was England made them
so, by leaving them a prey to every political
excitement. We had made them as they were.
He shared this opinion with almost all the great states-
men—(Laughter)—who had ever administered the
affairs of this kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) There was no
doubt that such was the opinion of Mr. Pitt.—(Hear.)
Although there remained no distinct record of it, he
had never heard it doubted. It had been asserted over
and over again in that House, and had been mentioned
in conversation by Mr. Pitt's most intimate friends.
Mr. Pitt believed that the union would never accomplish
its object as long as the Catholic clergy of Ireland were
left in their unregarded and degraded state.l—(Hear.)
If a proof were wanted he found it in the declaration
of the Roman Catholic bishops, made on the eve of
the union. At an assembly of the Roman Catholic
bishops, held on the 17th, 18th, and 19th of
January, 1799, they admitted that the provision pro-
posed by the Government for the Roman Catholic
clergy ought to be thankfully accepted ; and that such
an interference by the Government with the appoint-
ment of the bishops as would enable it to be satisfied of
their loyalty was Just and ought to be agreed to. This
same opinion was held by the very last of that genera-
tion of remarkable men—Lord Aidrnouth. Lord Sid-
mouth made an offer to the Roman Catholic priests to
receive from George the Third a share of the reyium
donut,' at the time it was given to the Presbyterians. By
the Presbyterians it was accepted, but the Roman
Catholic clergy very properly declared that it would be
considered as a bribe to detach them from the cause of
Catholic Emancipation. Under these circumstances
they could not receive it. The same opinion
was held by Lord Grenville, and Lord Castle-
reagh avowed it frequently. In the Committee of
1825, when the question was brought prominently for-
ward, it was well known what were the opinions of Mr.
O'Connell and Mr. Sheil on this subject ; but he would
not detain them on this point—they were matters which
they might all read for themselves, and which no one
had ever denied. In 1826, Lord Brougham, then Mr.
Brougham, in reference to the Roman Catholic clergy
in Ireland, expressed himself in favour of the provision
proposed the year before in 1825; a resolution to that
effect was passed in that House by a large majority. He
did not intend to bring this question in any other form
distinctly and immediately before the House ; he was
only declaring what he believed to be the
sole, and single, and true line into which
they could get for the purpose of bettering
the condition of Ireland. He never intended to propose—
indeed, it would be an insult to do so—to give a sum of
money to the Catholic clergy, because it would be con-
sidered now, as it was considered then—a bribe. It
was a thing impossible—it could not be offered; but he
would tell them what he thought could be done,
and he had no doubt the House would agree with him
on this point at least. The Ministers seemed to begin
here in the right way. They had done all that the
Roman Catholic clergy would accept in giving them
every means of possessing the endowments that might

be left to them by persons of their own persuasion.
(Hear, and a laugh.) That was. of course, very little.—
(Laughter.) But he would take it as an earnest of more,

he would take it as an earnest of the good feeling of the
Government in this matter; he hoped it would be followed
up by some such measure as the appointment of a
Commission to inquire into the state of the Roman Ca-

tholic chapels in Ireland, with a view to giving a grant
of public money for the purpose 'of repairing those
buildings now desecrated by misery and poverty, and
and which had every right in the world to be kept in a
decorous state for public worship. He hoped, too, that
the invidious distinction, with respect to the titles of the

prelates of that Church, might be dune away with—
(Hear, hear)—for, believing as he did, and as every
member of the Church of England must believe, the per-
fect right of those prelates to assume the titles of
bishops and archbishops, though not in connection with
the sees, as any of our prelates had to assume them,
he thought it would be a foolish and invidious distinc-
tion if they left that matter any longer doubtful. Let
them proceed by degrees to establish a good feeling in Ire-
land—let them do it by degrees, not because
he did not wish to do it at once, but because he knew
what was the feeling of the people of this country on
the subject. He knew that their feelings and prejudices
were connected with the best principles of social and
religious liberty in this country. Their prejudices
against the Roman Catholic religion were heir-looms
which came down to them from the times of Catholic

persecution against Protestants, and the consequence was
that Roman Catholics were at this time paying the pe-
nalty of the intolerance and bigotry of their forefathers.
It was only by slow degrees that such opinions and feel-
ings could be eradicated. And oh ! what a lesson ought
it to be to them to be tolerant in these matters, when
they saw how deeply such intolerance in past times had
sunk into the hearts of the English people—what a lesson
ought it to be to all sides to do nothing that should encou-
rage intolerance when they saw what he would call the

" hundred days " of Queen Mary had so operated on
the English mind at this moment, as to incapacitate them
from doing justice to the Roman Catholic population of
Ireland! When he spoke of doing justice to the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, it appeared to
.him that in the
speeches of the lion. Gentlemen opposite there was a
most extraordinary deficiency—one, indeed, nearly as
great as that committed by lion. Members on his side of
the House.—(Hear, and laughter.) On this side of the
House we often talk about Ireland as if thera were no
Roman Catholics at all in it. On the opposite side Hon.
Gentlemen talked of Ireland as if there were no Protes-
tants in it. Who could have believed, while listening to
the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sun-
derland, or that of the Honourable and Learned
Member for Liskeard, that there were a million of Pro-
testants in Ireland.s—(Cries of " No, no," from the Op-
position.) Well, then, two millions.—(No, no, and
laughter.) Say, then, a million and a half.—(Laughter.)
At least, then, an amount of Protestant population in
that country, which, considering their property and in-
fluence, they could not entirely disregard, without doing
injustice to that country. Remembering what the Pro-
testants of Ireland were, he would ask at whose door
lay the evil ? If they were proud and insolent, if they
did tyrannise over their Catholic fellow-subjects, who had
encouraged them in doing so ? What Legislature was it
that had fostered in them this feeling, that had made
them absolutely the spoilt children of England, and
had led them to regard themselves as the lineal
descendants of the Cromwellian conquerors of Ireland?
He did not say this was the case, but, looking histori-
cally at the subject, he should say such was t natural
consequences of the manner in which the Protestant in-
terest in Ireland had been fostered and cockered by
England ; he said, therefore, to turn round and deny
these men their proper; influence, and to speak of them
as non-existent, as in no degree to be regarded, as if
they held no part of the public opinion of Ireland, ap-
peared to him as a gross and unmitigated fallacy. The
Protestant Church was regarded, beloved, and revered,
in Ireland, in a manner which, he was sorry to say, he
found very few of its followers in England exhibit. He
wished he could see the members of the English Church
as much attached to it as the Protestants of
Ireland were. He therefore could not pretend that
he would come at once to any of those stringent
and rapid measures by which the Church Establish-
ment would be at once destroyed. He did not think,
supposing the dream of the Noble Lord to be realised,
and he seemed indulging,in some such reveries—(Great
laughter, occasioned by Lord Howick being, or appear-
ng to be, at the moment asleep)—that religious ani-
mosity would be at all weakened. Leaving the feelings
of the people such as .they were—he believed the volun-
tary system would have the effect of imparting to the
Church of Ireland all the rancour and bitterness which
they then found disfiguring the Roman Catholic Church.
And the consequence would be nothing less than one of
the most bloody and destructive conflicts of religious
opinion that had ever been seen on the face of the earth.
On these and other considerations he would not support
any measure which would tend to destroy the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland. If that link were severed
what was to prevent the Irish Protestants from saying
we are Irishmen also, we wish to hare a national legis-
lature; what was to prevent them from becoming re-
peelers ?—(Hear,hear.) He saw nothing to prevent this
consequence, but he would say with the late Baron
Wolfe, he would wish to give the Catholics in Ireland
an equality of rights, not an equality of degradation. He
would do everything to secure their comfort and dignity; he
was not to be terrified by seeing two or three respectable
theologians with purple stockings sitting in the House
of Lords.—(Cheers and laughter.) He thought also
they ought to establish friendly relations with the Court
of Rome. Were the clergy its connection with Rome
there would be just as much chance of their being good
subjects of the Crown as any members of that body.
Relations with the Court of Rome ought now, at least,
to be renewed. The Hon. Member for Newark had
mentioned this subject in the House last session. He
did not think there would be any objection to it on the
part of the House or on the part of the country.—(An
ironical " Hear, hear," from Mr. Plumptre, and laugh-
ter.) Such an attempt, if made, would certainly
require some caution.—(Laughter.) The Court of
Rome had been so long accustomed to be the prey
of diplomatists, that they would probably receive
our advances with suspicion. But if they explained that
they felt that the Court of Rome could revive in Ireland
the old and excellent principle of order and conservatism
for which it was distinguished, and which it had main-
tained in every other country in the world except Ire-
land, such an attempt might be made most successfully.
But 4the education of the Roman Catholics ought also to
be regarded and provided for by an additional grant to
the College of Maynooth, or the endowment of an
Irish College at Rome,which, of the two he should prefer.
He thought that encouragement ought to be given to her
Majesty's present Government, and to every other Go-
vernment—(Laughter)—in cases which he considered
superior and more portentous than the existence of any
G overnment.—( Laughter.) It was considered that the
effect of the Reform Bill had been to injure the stabilit)
of Governments in this country.—(Laughter.) It was
impossible now that any Government, however well ma-
naged, could retain power for as long as Sir Robert Wal-
pole was permitted to retain it.—(Laughter.) It was,
however, the duty of every Government in this country
to lay matters in such a train, and to prepare them in
such a way, that whatever the result might be to them-
selveF, whether they were able to carry them them-
selves or not, would soften the difficulties to those
who came after them. The Noble Lord the Member for
London pledged himself in this debate as to what he
would do if he became the Minister 'of the Crown. The
Irish Catholics might reckon when the Noble Lord
could get a majority by any means, that he would give
them religious equality.—(Hear, hear.) They might
know that was the very least theywould get.—(Laughter.)
It was the duty of every Member of Parliament to take care
that if such an unhappy event should take place—(Laugh-
ter)—to do all in his power to modify and soften the evil
about to follow.—(Laughter.) The greatest difficulty in
this world occurred, not from the events themselves, but
from thAellwhoerldooobled say was, that he believed her ing
impassioned for
Ma-
jesty'sthem.—(Laugh-
ter.)
Government was right„ but it was necessary that
they should do everything in their power to bring about
what was just as tranquilly, and with, as he must say,
as little revolution as possible.—(Great laughter.) That
they would do so, he had not the least doubt; but in their
own way.—(Laughter, and cheers.) They (the Go-
vernment) saw what was right as clearly as you do—
they saw the evil as truly as
remedy was as truly
wyoouulddo—brainngd sawit
whatb
ou t the
as you do, but the remedy was not
so palpable as the evil.—(Opposition cheers.) They
would attempt the remedy, but their course would not
be such as was proposed by the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Sunderland—they by
means which, in the opinion of all prudent men, would
attain its object, and, at the same time, would not in-
sult public opinion in this country. He warned the
Noble Lord, and others behind him, -from the destruc-
tion of the Roman Catholic Church Great laughter)
—and to take care what they did in arousing a "No
Popery " feeling in this country.—(Cries of " h, oh.")
a
There was a feeling in this country which the Noble
Lord, and those around, should take care not to arouse by
violent and extreme declarations. He saw no reason
why they might not have the scenes of 1780 acted over
again ; and he was sure there would be a many a Lord
George Gordon to help them on.—(Oh.) They should
set themselves seriously to remedy the evils of Ireland.
Let them forget all their party differences when dis-
cussing the affairs of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Let them
not taunt Government with not going so far as Hon.
Gentlemen opposite wished, as long as they went in the
same direction.—(A laugh.) They ought to make
every allowance for the Government.—(A laugh.) And
Hon. Gentlemen on the other side should remem-
ber that when they were in power they did not go
farther. He gave his cordial vote in favour of the Go-
vernment, not because they did all he wished for Ire-
land, but they did as much as the other Government,
who called themselves liberal, had done before them.
Let them do religious justice to the people of Ireland and
political justice would follow in the course
of
of
time.—(Hear, hear.) There ought to be
a statute
limitations in politics as well as in matters of property.
They could not go on discussing the wrongs of reland
for ever.—(Hear, hear.) They looked at the evils
of
Ireland just if they were looking through Lord Hosse's
telescope—(Laughter)—in order to bring them as near
as possible ; but they ought to endeavour to obliterate
them as much as possible; they ought, instead of exaspe-
rating and wounding the feelings ot the people of Ireland
to try to soothe them in every way.—(Hear, hear.) Let
them proceed in such a vein and they would do every
thing for Ireland. They should legislate for Ireland
not according to what they thought best, but according
to law and present circumstances, and upon such sound
and rational grounds as would cure the evils of that un-
happy country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. MACAULAY—Sir, I cannot refrain from con-
gratulating you that I did not catch your eye in the
present instance, because, I should be sorry to prevent
an Irish representative from addressing the House on an
occasion so interesting to his country, but peculiarly
sorry should I be to stand in the way of that Hon.
Gentleman who pleaded the cause of Ireland with so
much force. I now wish to submit to the House the rea-
sons which influence me in the vote I am about to give.
And, in doing so, I am sorry to say I do not feel myself
justified in following the course traced out by rairi Lion.
Friend opposite, with all that authority which e de-
rives from venerable antiquity, not thinking it right to
suffer her Majesty's Government to go on proposing
measures in their own way seeing the mistakes which
they aro likely to make. The grounds en which I sup-
port the motion are these : that I think Ireland is in a
most unsatisfactory and unsettled state, and that if there
be disorders in that country, of which no statesman can
see the source, yet there are disorders in the present
condition of Ireland of which her Majesty's present advisers
must be really considered the cause, and I do not think that
in any part of their conduct, either legislative or administra-
tive, they show a just appreciation of
of the nature of the causes
of the disorders of that country, or the proper mode in
which they should be redressed. I see nothing from which to
infer or expect that their policy will be different from that I
which they . have heretofore pursued. look forward with
deep uneasiness to the state
of Ireland---( Hear, hear,
and eheers)-and under those circumstances, I con-
ceive it the right and duty of every man to speak out,
and I conceive my_Noble Friend's motion to go into a Commit-
tee of the whole House is both a very convenient, as it is, be-
yond all doubt, a perfectly Parliamentary, course to pursue.
With regard to the proposition before us, it will not be neces-
sary to waste the time of the House in stating that the present
condition of Ireland is one to inspire alarm and apprehension.
In that I think both sides of the House are agreed. That coun-
try constitutes a fourth part of the United Kingdom. In pro-
portion, it is more than a fourth. In the natural fertility of
its soil it is superior to any area of equal extent in Europe. It
possesses ports which hold out more allurements for commerce
-than any other country, and it is an inexhaustible nursery
.for
brave soldiers.—(Cheers.) It is a country of far more im-
portance to the prosperity and greatness of the em-
pire than all our vast dependencies put together,
if multiplied fire times over—of far more impor-
tance to us than ur Canadian possessions, together
with the We les the Cape,and Australasia added to the

whole empire of the Mogul.—(Cheers.) We know it is now
governed, not by love but by fear—(Cheers)—that it is go-
verned as you govern Sinde—(Cbeers)--not by the confidence
of the people in the law, and by attachment to the Constitu-
tion, but by means of armed men, and entrenched encamp-
ments.—( Cheers.) This is a fact which, if it stood alone,
would fully justify the House of Commons in going into an
inquiry upon the causes which produced such a state of
things in Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) But there are other evils
in Ireland, a part of which cannot be attributed to the present
Government, an,l a part of which can be justly laid to their
charge. Ido not wish to weary the House by tracing the
origin of those evils; and yet, I think I can
hardly do justice to the question without casting a
passing glance on them. No doubt when we look at the pri-
mary causes of these evils, we must look not only beyond the
existence of the present Administration—not only beyond the
time of any living statesman, but to times before the names of
" Whig" or " Tory" were pronounced—to times anterior to
the introduction of the Puritans, to which the Hon. Member
for Shrewsbury, in his very ingenious speeeh, attributed these
evils—to times anterior even to the Reformation. I think we I
may trace the first source of those evils to the manner in
which Ireland became annexed to the Crown of England.
It was a conquest, and a conquest of a peculiar kind. It
was not a mere annexation of Ireland to the British Crown,
which would be a benefit to her. It was not a conquest
like that of France over Normandy, or like that by
which Silesia was added to Prussia. It was a con-
quest of a different kind. It was a conquest known
in ancient times, and well known among rude nations—
it was a conquest of race over race—it was the dominion
of one nation over another, such as was established by
the Mahrattas over the kingdom of Gwalior—such a do-
minion as Spain established over South America.
That I take to be the first great fountain of all these disorders.
I believe that the very worst of all tyranny is that of race over
race.—( Hear, hear.) I believe that the enmity which has
existed between nations separated by sea and mountain, even
when those nations have been at war with each other, has
never approached, in its most intense bitterness, the enmity of
nations which have been geographically and locally inter-
mingled, and yet, at the same time, have never been morally
amalgamated. It is the feeling of the Spaniards and the
Moors; it is the feeling which, down to our own time, exists
among a large part of mankind in regard to the Jews. Never-
theless civilisation can remove this evil ; for in our own coun-
try—a country which formerly suffered under the same species
of misery—we have seen Celt and Saxon, Dane and Norman,
all fused down, all melted together, and forming one great
united people.—( Hear, hear.) This, we might have hoped,
would have taken place in Ireland. I believe it would have
taken place but for the establishment of the Reformation.—
( Hear, hear.) Then came in a new division to strengthen the
old one. The aborigines of Ireland remained true to
the ancient faith alone among all the nations of
the north of Europe.—(Hear.) Then you had im-
mediately a new line of distinction ; you had
theological animosity called in to reinforce and reanimate the
undying animosity of race: and in this manner it is that the
two have come down to our own time: It did unfortunately so
happen/hat the spirit of liberty in England was allied with that
spirit in theology, which was most widely opposed to the
Roman Catholic Church—it did so happen that the passion for
arbitrary Government, was, daring the seventeenth century,
closely allied with a tenderness for the old religion. Such men
as Pym and Hampden, and Van*, and even Milton, afford ex-
amples of the operation of this kind of alliance. Even Milton,
with all his eloquence, while proclaiming the great doctrines of
religious liberty, always made an exception—the religion of the
Roman Catholic. On the other hand, those princes who re-
spected no rights of Protestants in the case of any dissenters,
always respected the rights of the Roman Catholic. James the
First, even after the gunpowder plot, had no repugnance to
the Roman Catholics. Charles the Second was a concealed
Catholic. James the Second an avowed Catholic. In this
manner it commonly happened that their evil was our good,
that throughout the whole of that long contest our slavery and
their freedom was the same thing. At this very day every-
thing which in the mind of the English Whig is as-
sociated with what he considers the glory of his coun-
try, is, in the mind of a Roman Catholic, asso-
elated with the degradation of himself and his religion.
Take the name of William the Third—take the name of the
battle of the Boyne, and others which I need not mention. I
never recollect having been so forcibly struck with the differ-
ence as I was on a day which I ought to well remember—the
day when I had the honour of being declared Member for the
town of Leeds. I was in the chair, which was adorned with
orange ribbons; it was surrounded by men of the strongest
opinions, nothing but orange ribbons were to be seen. I could not
help thinking how anomalous all this would have seemed to an
Irish Protestant. Nor was this all ; there was a large orange
flag carried before me, and Sir George Saville, one of the v. ry
first of those who led the way in claiming equal rights for the
Catholics, sat in the vet), chair in which Lord Milton sat
after he gained his great victory in Yorkshire. What a
triumph would this display have been considered by an Irish
Protestant over the Catholics. At the same time it was a
circumstance that suggested reflections on the whole of
the history of the two nations.—( Hear, hear.) During
that century twice the Irish population rose against
the Protestants, twice they were put dew n and
visited with severe punishment. They were put down
first by Cromwell, and then by William the Third. Each of
these rulers, after his victory, proceeded to establish a system
of his own. That of Cromwell was fierce and strong, and
able and cruel. It was all contained in one word—a word
which Lord Clarendon tells us was constantly uttered by the
Englishmen in Ireland—extirpation ! What his policy would
have been if he had lived, we cannot tell ; but his object, un-
doubtedly, was to make Ireland completely a part of England.
William the Third's policy was seemingly less cruel; whether
in reality it was less cruel, I have my dsubts. The Irish
Catholics were to live, they were to multiply, they were to
dwell on the earth—they were to till the earth—but the Catho-
lic was to be what the Helot was in Sparta—what the Greek
was under the rule of the Ottoman—what the man of colour is
at this moment in Pennsylvania. He was to be excluded from
every honour and every privilege. At every step in his path
through life, he was to find himself cramped • by some galling
restriction. If he were desirous of military glory, he might
go into the armies of Austria or France. If he felt any desire
to take part in politics, he might plunge into the diplomacy of
Italy or Spain; but if he remained at home he was to be a
mere Gibennite—a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water.
Bad laws badly administered increased the bad feelings from
which they had sprung—and to that period I believe is the
origin to be referred of all those bad feelings arising out of the
relations of landlord and tenant in Ireland, which have lasted
down to our own times, and which have led to such fatal con-
sequences throughout the whole subsequent series of Irish
history. As to the Courts of Law—as to the juries—they
have existed only for the benefit of the dominant class. As to
the priests, those men who have been revered
as the dispensers of the Christian sacraments, they
have been constantly treated in a manner in which
no nun would treat the veriest mountebank. A t last there
came a great change over the face of Europe. The French revo-
lution had awakened the spirit of liberty throughout the world.
Jacobitism was certainly not the national ally of Catholicism, but
oppression and misery produce sharp coalitions, and such a
coalition was now lormed. 'I hat third Protestant ascendancy
was put down by the sword, and then it became the duty of
the eminent man who stood at the head of affairs to consider
how he was to deal with Ireland. I must say, though lam
no idolater of the memory of Pitt—that when I compare the
plan which he formed with the policy, either of Oliver Crom-
well or William the Third, I am forced to admit that he de-
serves, over these celebrated men, the praise of great wisdom
and of great humanity. The union of Ireland to England was
part of his plan—an excellent part of his plan—an essential part
of his plan, but still only a part of it. It is never to be for-
gotten that his scheme was one much wider in extent than any
which we have yet seen carried into effect. What he wished
was to unite the hearts and the affections of the two nations.
Catholic disabilities were to be removed. The Catholic clergy
were to be placed in an honourable and independent position.
Catholic education was to be conducted on a liberal scale.
His views on those opinions agreed with those, I believe, if I
am not misinformed—with those of a man of an under-
standing even more enlarged and capacious than his own—l
mean, Mr. Burke.—( Hear, hear.) If that system had been
fully and fairly carried into effect, it is my belief that the union
with Ireland would have been as secure and as far beyond the
reach of danger as the union with Scotland.—(.Cheers.) The
nwroeuml de
remembered,
db
ae
sn
name of the union would have been associated in the minds of
the great body of the people of Ireland, with the removal of
cruel and galling disabilities, and with respect paid to their re-
ligion.—( Cheers.) All that was just, all that was national in
wouldtheir havefeelings,
b mh the
mbe r e English
d,
connexion.—(Cheers. ) The Parliament on College-green
it tmd
deserved v euclp towbi tehr remembered,
only as the vilest--( Hear, hear)—the most corrupt—( Hear,
hear)—the most tyrannical—( Hear, hear)—legislative assem-
bly that ever sat, I believe, on the face of the earth.—(Loud
cheers.) In saying this, lem sure lam not giving any offence
to any Irishman.—( Hear.) I say no more than Wolfe Tone
has said. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman here quoted a passage
from Wolfe Tone, in which it was asserted that there was
nothing in the history of legislation at all bordering on the in-
famy of College-green, and that he did not believe it had ever
entered into the heart of man to conceive anything more
infamous than the system of Irish legislation.) Not
only would the union, if this had passed, have been
associated in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland
with great benefits received—(Cheers)—but those benefits
must have inspired unmingled gratitude—(Cheers)—for they
would have been benefits not conceded to force, but given
freely—(Cheers)—given in the moment of power.—( Cheers. )
lam sorry that Mr. Pitt's measures were not carried into
effect, but the Irish Catholics found that they had given away
their independence, and that they had obtained no compensa-
tion in respect of their civil or their religious liberties.—
(Cheers.) The union must now be associated in their minds
with disappointed hopes and violated pledges.—( Cheers. )
Nevertheless, it is not yet too late.—(Loud cheers.) It was
not too late in 1813.—(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1821.
—(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1825.—(Cheers.) If some
of those men who were tben, as now, high in the service of
the Crown, would have made up their minds to say that which
they were forced to say four 3tearslater, I believe, that all the
benefits of the policy of Mr. Pitt would have been secured.—
( Loud cheers.) The supporters of agitation had not been or-
ganised. The Government was under no coercion. That
which might have been given in 1825 might have.been given with
honour, and might, and probably would, have secured grati-
tude. At length, in 1829, concession was made—lawfully
made—and made without conditions, which Mr. Pitt would un-
doubtedly have imposed. But it was made reluctantly, and
with evident reluctance. It was made confessedly for the pur-
pose of avoiding a civil war. Was this a concession to be re-
ceived with gratitude, or to be received with contempt? Was
it not a necessary effect that it shOuld inspire in the minds of
the Irish people an opinion deeply to be lamented, but one,
with the evils effects of which we are at this day con-
tending ? Could they forget that they had come before
the English Parliament, during twenty-seven years,
as suppliants for justice, pleading the rights of conscience,
pointing to solemn pledges, to the promise of Mr. Pitt: and it
is believed, to the_promise_given by his Majesty, George IV.,
when Prince of Wales ? The most profound thinkers, the most
eloquent orators, had toiled in their service in vain. Mr. Pitt,
who had endeavoured to fulfil his intentions towards them, had

been driven from power. Mr. Grenville and Lord Grey, who
matiteeemdpw toerededriven from do but asm power. Mr. can
small part of what Mr.
too
.i Fitt had h
their
part, t, and Mr. Canning was hunted to death.—(Loud cheers
from the Opposition.) When that distinguished orator was
laid in his grave, then the Catholics began to look for them-
selves—to organise agitation—to display themselves in a strong
and formidable array of force, just keeping within the limits of
the law. The consequence was, that within two years after
that great man had been carried to Westminster Abbey,
broken-hearted, the feeling pervaded the Roman Catholic body
in Ireland, that from England, or at all events from that great
party which now governs England, nothing was to be got by
reason, and everything by force.--( Hear, hear.) However,
the concession had been made—it deserved no gratitude, and
it obtained none. The organization of agitation was complete.
The leaders of the people had tasted tie pleasures of power
and of distinction. The people themselves had grievances
enough to furnish a very good pretext for the continuance of
agitation. There was a general sense that there was nothing
which might not be got by playing over again the game of
1829.—( Hear, hear.) These, Sir, I call the remote causes
of the difficulties with which we have now to deal ; these are

the causes in which originated the great mass of that discon-
tented and morbid feeling which comes to us as the
fruit of uninterupted misgovernment from the time of Henry 11.
to the time of William IV., which has come down to the states-

men of the present time to deal with as they best may. And
now, Sir, to that immediate cause. The state of Ireland, if I
understand it rightly, is a t o Wizen but then it was not

a permanent state of disease, it was more a state of paroxysm.
frelaad is always combustible, but she is not always on fire.—
( Heer. hear.) When the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir
is 1),(1) came before the public as a candidate for the high
official situation which he now holds, he announced himself
under the type of a physician, and used, if I recollect
rielitly, several metaphors drawn from medical science; and to
follow out the same metaphor, I shall say that I think Ireland is
not in a hopeless condition. I admit that it is a patient that
has a bad habit upon it, but what I say is this, that
its malady is one which, had it been properly treated,
might have been kept off, and the patient might again regain its
usual health ; but as the treatment, on the contrary, has been
one of continual irritation, what other could be the result but
to pr dues paroxysm after paroxysm, each more violent than
the last, and seeming likely, unless some decisive step is
adopted, to end in terrible consequences? It is, I conclude,
impossible to deny that the administration of Lord Melbourne
was an administration popular with the great body of the
Catiro:ie population of Ireland.—(Cheers.) It is, I believe,
impossible to doubt that the two Viceroys who were sent to
Ireland by that Aslininistration had a greater share of the
affections of the great body of the Irish people than any
Viceroys since the time of William the Third.—(Cheers.) We
know that, during his administration, great perils threat-
ened the empire in other parts ; but we know that
to Ireland the Government could always look with
confidence. —( Loud cheers.) When designing men had
raised disturbances in England, which threatened insurrec-
tion, troops could be spared from Ireland.—(Loud cheers. )
When an insurrection broke out in one of our colonies—an in-
surrection of a very peculiar kind—an insurrection with which
we might have supposed the Irish Catholics would have sym-
patiii•ed, seeing that it was the insurrection of a Catholic po-
pulation against the conquering-English people, the Irish Ca-
tholics remained faithful—(Loud cheers)—in all things to the
general Government of the empire.—( Continued sheering. )
Ireland was able to spare troops for Canada.—(lmmense
cheering. ) No person, I believe, doubts that if, in
in 1540, by some fatal mischance, a foreign army had
dropped upon the shores of Munster—no one doubts
but that they would have met with as good a reception—that
they would have been as firmly met as if they had landed on the
sho.es of Kent or of Norfolk—( Hear, hear)—by a determi-
nation on the part of the whole population to support the
throne of Queen Victoria.—( Hear, hear.) And under what
circumstances, and by what means has this great change
been produced ? Not by any great legislative boon con-
ferred upon the Irish people by the Government—( Cheers)
—for although they have the inclination, they have not the
power against a strong minority in this House, and a strong
majority in the other House of Parliament, to carry any
such legislative measures.— (Cheers. ) It was effected
msraiy by the executive Administration—(Cheers)—crossed
and thwarted at every turn, having against it the
whole of the Established Church, and the greater part
of the landed gentry of this ceuntry.—( Cheers.)
Yet with such an Opposition they managed to conciliate the af-
fections of the great body of the Irish people, and I cannot help
thinking that if during those six years that Administration had
been as strong in l'arliamentary support as the present Ad-
ministration—if it had been able fully and effectually to ex..
tene to Ireland the benefits of the British Constitution, the
effects of such legislation would have been such as to make all
the friends of Ireland rejoice.—(Loud cheers.) But during
those six years an Opposition, powerful in numbers, was ranged
against the Government.—( Cheers.) Those Lords-Lieutenant
who were more popular in Ireland than any Lord-Lieutenant
who had preceded them—were assailed as no other Viceroys had
even been assailed—(Cheers)—and assailed too for those very
portions of their administration—which were the chief modes
of conciliating the people of Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) Every
Legislative Act without exception, which was intended by the
Governnytnt for the benefit of Ireland, and which was popular
with the Irish people, was rejected.—(Cheers. ) When Catho-
lic gentlemen of high abilities and of stainless character, were
placed i t situations which were much below their merits, their
appointment was hailed with the greatest satisfaction by their
countrymen—(Cheers)—and no wonder that they were
so after 150 years of persecution, during which, doubtless, elo-
qusnee as fervid and abilities as great as those of my Right
Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for
Durigarvon. had withered in utter obscurity under the
iefluence of penal and disabling laws.—(Loud cheers.)
During that century and a half of persecution no Irish Ca.
tholic had 'ism to honour, except by deserting his country ;
and when at last a Catholic was sworn of the Queen's counsel,
a Catholic was seated at the Board of Admiralty, the great
'fury party set up such a yell of dislike as Lord George
Gordon drew from the great mob of his followers. We have
seen some specimens of that eloquence revived; but the
leaders of the party, even at that time, seldom joined in the
cry, though I could mention instances, and one eminent in-
stance, to the contrary.—(Hear, hear.) 'I he leaders of the
party were content, as far as I can recollect, with listening to
it, with enjoying it, with profiting by it.—( Ironical cheers
from the Opposition.) It was not necessary that they should
do more.—( Renewed cheers.) " Are they not aliens?" was
the phrase of an eminent person.—(Loud cheers from the Op-
position.) " Minions of Popery," was the epithet of another.
—( Hear, hear.) While the Catholic priesthood, which is re-
garded with the greatest reverence and love in Ireland—do
Iwe not rememb r that they were called " a demon priesthood,"
" priests of Baal," " false prophets of Jezebel," feeding at her
board ?—( Cheers.) But not content with insult, not content
with throwing out and mutilating every measure which would
have been beneficial to Ireland, the Opposition of that day as-
sumed the offensive—they determined to bring in a legislative
measure for the purpose of depriving Ireland of every benefit
which she had derived from the Reform Bill. They brought
in an Act which they called an Act of Registration.
They themselves now admit that it would have been an act of
disfranchisement. I take the description of that Act from
their own lips. They admit now that a ne.v light has
broken in upon them. Has a single new fact been brought
for ward, which has not been urged twenty, thirty, or forty
times over in this House. In point of fact, they do not find
themselves at liberty to ruin the country, except when they
are out of place and want to get into it.—(Cheering from the
Cpposition, and ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches. )
Well, Sir, in place they are ; it was very fitting that such ser-
vice should have its reward, and it had its reward.—(Cheers
and laughter. ) Several causes undoubtedly concurred to place
them in the situation which they occupy, but I believe the
principal cause to have been the discontent which they excited
in England against the Irish policy of their predecessors. In
their eagerness for victory, they called up a spirit of great
power—a spirit much more easily evoked than laid—the spirit
of religious intolerance.—(Cheers.) It placed them in their
, situations, and then their punishment began.—(Cheers and
laughter.) It was pleasant, indeed, very pleasant to get all
the advantage of the sermons of the Rev. Hugh IlPNeile, and
of the speeches of the Rey. Hugh Stowell ; it was very plea-
sant to have their own cause represented by High Churchmen,
and by Low Churchmen, and by Dissenters, as the cause of the
Gospel struggling against that spurious liberalism which made
no difference between religions truth and religious falsehood.
It was very pleasant to hear that their political foes were
the slaves of Antichrist, and were marked with the sign of the
Beast. All this was very pleasant at that time, but when they
had attained power, they found that there were about eight
millions of Catholics in Ireland, whom, either by themselves or
their agents, they had been insulting and degrading. What
was the necessary result? I give them credit for not wishing
to do the smallest harm beyon what was necessary for over-
throw tug the late Administration.—(Cheers.) They regret
that they cannot find a sufficient number of Conservative Ca-
tholics whom they would be justified in promoting at the
Irish bar, and they express a similar feeling with respect to
gentlemen in this House. But what I wish to know is this—
why are all the Roman Catholics in the empire their enemies?
Who ever heard of such a thing before ? Here you have about
eight millions of people, of all sorts, characters, and professions,
peers, lawyers, merchants, peasants--men belonging to every
rank in society.— (Ilear, hear.) At their head is the Premier
Duke of the Empire—(Hear, hear)—the hereditary Earl
Marshal—the heir of the Fitzallans and the Mowbrays—
(Cheers)—while, on ihe other hand, you may go down into
the lowest ranks of Roman Catholics, anti find enmity exist-
ing, such as hardly ever before was heard of.—( Hear, hear.)
If, indeed, there was something in the Roman Catholic religion
peculiarly opposed to the general system of the
politics adopted by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite
I could understand the thing, but that subject was ably
touched upon in my Noble Friend's opening speech.—( Hear.)
Is it the fact that the Catholic theologian is peculiarly likely
to ally himself with the cause of civil liberty ? Quite the eons
teary. Of all forms of Christianity the Catholic religion is
that which attaches the greatest importance to antiquity and
authority, which rests most on the grounds of prescription, and
which, even by its rites, its vestments, and its language, would
seem bound up with Conservative polities.—(Cheers.) Was
there a single Catholic in the army of Fairfax—(Cheers)—and
how many hundreds of Catholic gentlemen came forward on
behalf of Charles the First?—(Cheers.) When a reward was

put upon the head of Charles the Second did any Catholic be-
tray him ?—(Cheers.) When, at the close of the last century,
attacks were made by republicans upon the old monarchies,
who stood by the monarchy ? The Catholics.—(Cheers.) It
way so in La Ventle—( Cheer s)—it was so in Spain.—( Cheers. )
It was the greatest mistake that was ever made for Govern-

meat to set itself against the great body of the Catholics.
All those who were acquainted with Mr. Pitt, and those who
are acquainted with Mr. Burke's writings, from which Mr.
Pitt derived his opinions, know that both Mr. Pitt and Mr.
Burke regarded the Catholics as friendly to monarchy.—
( Cheers.) Nothing except madness in a Government can
possibly account for this peculiarity.—(Cheers.) The dis-
ciples of Mr. Pitt, while they professed to keep his
birthday, seemed little aware of the views which he took on
that subject.—(Cheers.) Now see in what does all this
end. You are forced to bestow your patronage on your
friends—you cannot give it to the Catholics—an antipathy
to your Government is excited—your appointments neces-
sarily go on, and will go on, as far ai I can
see, increasinc, that antipathy, unless Parliament
adopt some final and decisive remedv.—( Hear, hear. )
The Emancipation Act, as far as respects all the favours of the
Crown, is as much a nullity as regards the Catholics of Ireland
as if it never had been passed at all. Of all the boons which
the Right Hon. Baronet promised to bestow upon them in 1829,
they have only received one, and that would not have been
continued to them if the Tory party had carried the Irish
Registration Bill. All that follows is no wonder. The
wounded national spirit, the wounded religious spirit, starts up
and shows itself in a hundred forms, some of which I deplore,
some of which I deeply condemn, but none of which can excite

my amazement, not-le of which seems to me to be anything
except the national effect of gross mis-government, acting on
strong sensibility. You refuse to admit the Roman Catholic
into the communion of the Constitution, and you wonder that
he finds himself on a narrow stage. Turn wherever lie
he finds every high place filled, every office in the
hands whom he considers, and not without reason,
as his enemies. What more natural than that people
in such a situation should array against the regular con-
stitutional authorities, the strong defence of their own opi-
nions ? They remember—it woulkbe strange if they did not
remember—what their efforts, under the same guidance,
extorted in 18:29, and they are determined to try whether
a similar effort may not be equally successful now.
These, then, are your difficulties, and, in my opinion, they
are difficulties of your own making. Well, then, having made
them, let it be remembered that after all, difficulties are the
tests of great statesmen. Eminent men have sometimes brought
themselves into difficulties, and have admirably retrieved their
error by the manner in which they overcame them.—( Hear. )
Let us then see, how, with regard to your difficulties, you mean
to act. First, with respect to legislation. The legislation
which we had last session for the evils of Ireland, was all com-

prised in an Arms Bill—( Hear, hear)—not a measure of con-
ciliation, not worth naming as a measure of coercion ; but
simply a measure of petty annoyance.—( Hear, hear.) It was
a mea,ure which, as far as I could judge, satisfied neither side
of the House. We called out for boons for Ireland, and many
Hon. Gentlemen opposite called for more stringent mea-
sures.—( Hear.) Indeed, if I recollect rightly, one Noble and
Learned Lord bestowed the aid of his counsel on the Govern-
ment by recommending an Irish Coercion Bill, but the
only legislative measure passed was the Arms Bill.
as regards the measures of the Executive
Administration, of the manner iu which they have dealt with
this agitation. I merely mention them to protest, in the
strongest manner, against the statement of the Noble Lord,
that amongst reasonable men there cannot be two opinions
about the Clontarf proclamation ; for that the Government had
done everything which it was possible to do to prevent a breach
of the peace.--(Hear, hear.) I say that, from the statement
of the Government, it appears that in the meeting of Friday
the resolution was formed; and could you not have taken up a
pen, and have written three lines, to say that the Government
apprehended a breach of the peace, and therefore that all goad
subjects should avoid going to the meeting?--( Hear, hear.) I.
that a composition which required the weighing of sentences—