The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-09 00:00:00

ROYAL NAVY.

Mr. HUME moved for papers relative to the
Expenditure incurred iu respect of building in the
Itoyal The Hon...Aletnber entered into a
comparative statement of the establishment and
,cxpenses of this Department from the vent 1791
op to the present time. In 1791 the total expen-
diture •amounted to 1,985,0001. whereas in the
present time it was above 6 millions. He wished
the estimates of 1791, 1792, and 1793, to be com-
pared with those or the yttars 1817, 1.818, and
1819. The House would scarcely be.able 'to cre-
dit the fact, that thoupth we had n<►w as he had
already stated, 600 ships, there were at -present
building 130 more of various descr►ptions, and
hence an Hymnal expense was created .(exclusive
of the 600,000!. you'd to cover Hi; wear and tear
of the Navy) of not less than 1,085,0001, The
total of •the expense so incurred in the years
1791, 1792, and 1793, had only varied from
350,0001. to 367,0001. This statemtut alight not

be quite correct, as he took the sums which III:
hail just mentioned from the Journals ( I.
llftuse, and he was aware that, sortie Y'611:1;
a larger sure had been found necesiarrY "tie
had been called for ill the first installer's !he
AmOtint Which he Could not ascertain i"
tis
""`c it was in coesleieration "
ihat he now called for the estimates of 111$e 3
period. Fie thought it important that the F-Dus-
should have before them the little expenre thflllc
inclined, at a time when eve had to oppose ail
navies of Europe, under thosc heads which no,
gave an annual charge of upwaids of one atilli(0"(;
stcrling. As we had already upwards of ° ,
ships, he thought it would be much wiser to he%
them in such a state that they should always
ready
ready to meet an enemy, than to ineglect
we already possessed to build new ones ; and to 4
time of general distress like the present, with $
diminishing revenue, it was of the utmost Hi;
portauce that every possible regard should be ha',
to economy. lie would take thiS opportunity "`
saying, how much he regretted the vote come to
by that House a few days ago, which incre"si°"
the number of marines, went, in fact, to reduce
our Navy by 1000 sailors, for the purpose of toir
menting our army to that amount. The addiik;(l,,
made to.
the marines raised their number t"
right thousand men. They had never before'
in a.time of peace, exceeded five thousand. 14:
lam, rated the little encouragement give') ti"
sailors, and would rattler
see them emploYel
and the British flag flying in diff-trent parts °
the world, than he comp.:lied to witness &inch
•
antu eentarion of our I:itid force as be trail g
just o°'
treed. Much rather would he see our ships s
engaged, than be compelled to view them rotting
laid up in ordinary, while soul) large stints
expended in building of new .ones. He moved f°'
a Return of the numner of Ships and Vessel,
longing to 'the Royal Navy in the years 1791'
1792, and 1793; and for A similar Retort, t"1.
the years 1817, 1818, and 1819, distingtoishiotti
their different rates, and the nuoilier• eutploYe
at sea and laid up in ordinal y, to each Yucir'
He also moved for returns of the 'oral charges 'lv
curred for buildirig and repairing strips ..pid
sell, and improving dock-yards, at the two Peci
Clods set forth i,, thr motion. in e..ch year, rul'
the total amount t-e charge crewed in ihell,r,e
1792, and 1793; and in 1817. OS'
and 1819. He begged to say that Ire th tight ti'e
present motion of the utmost import lie„
believed that it the matter were lo
considerable saving in ship-building

fuel ed. _
Sir G. COCKBUR feared that a part•of the °4:
counts called for by the Hon G,ittleman cot",,4i
not he correctly made (tot, bur as far as it etti •
tie effected, it should Vel:Ailliy be duce. I loaf
be ill all events impossible to give the whole tt
the accounts before the Navy Estimates came be'
fare ,lielloose,as it would he nearly Alidstou"
met before the papers first called for could he /t
ready. All the documents of a later date multi
very soon be prodered, but the others could o°",
he got ready ‘xiiitout much labour, which fl
occupy a very considerable time. The
Gentleman had entered into a long argument
,various topics, through which it was impossibt"
that he could follow him, but on one or o'4
Points he had, a few words to offer. The 1,1()%
Member bad said he was sorry to see our 51",,P;
rotting, laid up in ordinary. Before he 133a,`";
such a statement, he ought to have taken °-
trouble to inquire whether this was really tit':
fact. So far was this front being the Ctil,C,
tbe very reverse was pOsitively the truth. lII'
stead of the ships being as he had described then);
they were actually improving, laid up as tiles;
were at this moment in ordinary. Those ',-
whom the care of them was confided were 11°,;
getting rid of that which had formerly becn
ruin of our navy ; they were gerting tee di/ "")
tl
out of them, which had heretofore been so e;
stroctive, and it was found th.tt the best waY
accomphshing this was by exposing them to
atmospheric air. Holes had accordingly beet'
made to convey this wherever its action was re
; and the effect of the arrangement Ma'
was, that our navy "wa, now io better older tlotits
it had ever been in before, as our ships were
such a state that they might he expected to fulit
through as 6
mein years as a war would last i
least they would run through eight ten ye '11.3'
and they had no right to calculate that aii/i
new war would be of longer duratiou. He lioPe
the last policy that House would adopt wool(' ll
that of nut keeping our navy in a state to beat%
our enemies, if a new war should break out. 1')1:
was the object of those connected with the 01,
they were merely providing to supply the de, a
eieocy created by ships that had necessarily fillett)rc
into decay ; and when the Estimates came be
the House, he should be able. to prove that "4".
thing had been culled for ty bid) was not absolute'
necessacy.
Sit J. Yortiee always opposed his' Hon. frtera
with regret, but it he understood what hatteasse,-"
the question pot by the Hon. Gentleman (V
Hume) came to this, whether or not some rt.
doction could lie made in .the ex'
"
pences—whether, in fact, we might not be olfc
manufacturing men of tsar, as we had over-mal
factored every thing else- lo 1812, be (Sir ,
Yorke) in answer to a question b an llortutt.'"
able Member of that House the late Mr.
bread) had stated it to tie his conviction that ti
(by tot would never be got out of the NtlyY,,,thill ,
every ship was built or repaired under cnver•
truth of this had been proved by experieoce.t"-1,
The whole of the ship-building was now "eo
under cover, and the result was, the dry r°t `'be
completely got under. This beim', al" case,ie
thoughtwith the Honourable Geetleman that
was imnecelsary to build so many men of %vac 0
it appeared were now to be built. Alre'dY
had ships enough to fight tine navies of every coca,
try, if they were all opposed to us together. Prqa
tided we could man, vietud, and store thitn, turf
under such circumstances it could not he necessi3.,(,
to build mote. If Inca of war were built 'rx
better than formerly, he would ask what 1'13°,3.: ter
thought of that Government, which had le"
,-;3
t c 1
Robert Seppings, to whom the bcnefiei'd
might he ascribed, with a bare kniglilltutti;
but without having been rewarded for whorl
liad done, by the wle:. of a single shill'f:gr',iee
bit N dCf...:L.IO:ZO the late atiditt"'

4 J the

coi
Pupori
nt tilt

1.;;• fie
ii-e of

'Clsion

l'e

1,:13/ I li

Alr.
all
led ill
Itld bi
yot all

ti',ll (1

11le f')i

IP 10

1:le fze

VV4IIIIII

Ito

lil
Ils I
I

fur th&

1791,
tompa
hie ti(

each o

of Nay
tiny it

Of the
atooon
When
-Size of
not 1,4

rates o

spoken
loOkett
treaties'

11141erii

iend
1)1
the
Non- b
bpon $
rl:
built cl;
tithes t

his 'G.,i
btiVatte
sp
SrfViet:

tlr•riverl
tl►e slk

Prove r

had not
Lvel)
Lad 111
and not
Plitsciat
Yorke)
kv
40y, bt

trive t'

Lis kik
be don
Ith,:tv h.

rvi;4ll P
FAlilered
Kyle to
h
litg on
tteiir.bl
they we
3111T0,C
111)111,11e

10havr

RoL
teSPeCt
41.
cas
"t Mon,

eirtriincr
1110111 c
ti tit be
VI lend
could,
!'ever b
040, be,
w
-Vrien'd
Sir B
w ti
t4ell
poit;!S.

without
be clout
au(imblt

Thew, 1,
t
k4ntsapp\
Pracliet:
!O he Cu
Crease

IleCvs-s—a;
"I r. IT
‘thlettiet
(hittl t
h'uttld
(I, "evil.
ill, •
t
tilettt s„
hike to
‘votitti
stll, It t
l'ccvbi to
liir wodt
htiouil,
4_44. c,
the
Lad
err
Lri
rc
tic
e cross

whicil be
, of 11)6
ne Yeti'li
ibexary
lice, II:
„ in in-
I of
of (bag

e Floe
ilre the('
se all die
lich
e f d°t)Woo
o
r to keel'
lways
be
eci Ay"!
and et

ost ign;
j be
unity of
come to
creasing
reduce
of Or
additioo
lber to
betorc'
vet) to
,ployeht
ports ()
,ueb

•
Luc
coot;
co"
%volt!
bolt
og

atne be.

I he gOAt
re cool'
mid ft
.h olds-
e
rsent
posithiAg.
Pt f`4"
le
ir Alt
e ado
key the
ally the,
Ne,
'

Li 001;
as the,
hoge L.°
,re no-
een 11
r",l
Fsoci;;
wayt°,
to ti'v
v bee°
N 8s re•
nisde
er
Nere '-
to 0":
ist i

Itit Siff
r)1.11(1
beat 11;1
41.;
te (14'
V °eta
before
"°'
solute'

OE. bo
,ft SIC
:haog3
pit
por.•
• 44'

io the Marines, 1-le had long served with bat
corits, and knew them to have rendered the •most
important services to their country. At the time
ot the- mutiny in the Navy, they had prevented
tt:e fleet from being carried to Ireland, and saved
ti-e officers from being massacred. On every oc-
'casino, from 1770 to the presetx time, their cou-
rage, zeal, and loyalty, had been conspicuous, and
he Must deny that increasing their 'lumbers was
nap thing like an augmentation of the army..
Mr. CHOKER thought it would have been better
Inr all parties had the present motion beeu defer-
teei till ibe ordinary and ex,raOrdinary estimates
had been laid on the table: Ile would then have
i4ot all the documents he wanted, with the excep-
tion of those that were to show what had been
the expenditure in 1791, 1792, and 1793, and a
lete ion could have been made for these instead of
the general motion now before the House, which
.‘votild occasion touch trouble, not only in search-
lug for the first-mentioned papers, but in produe-
, itig those which would have been brought forward
if no such motion had been made, and which
innst have appeared on the face of the estimates
for the year. Though the estimees for the years-
-1791, 1792, 1793, appeared so exceedingly small,
'compared with those of late.years, the Honoora-
ble Gentleman must know that at the ...Jul of
each of them there had been a large accumulation
Of Navy Debt ; which became at length so great
that it was found necessary to fund it. The amount
of the debt so incurred ought to be added to the
*Mount of the estimates for those three years.
'When on this subject, whether they looked to the
itze of the ships, which the- Hon. Member bad
tot taken into his consideration--
Mr. Hume said he bad distinctly mentioned the
rates of the ships.
-Mr. CRACIIR knew the Hon. Member had
spoken of the rates of the ships, but ne had not
looked to the size of them, which had mock in-

creased since 1793, and which of course made a
rtnsterial difference in the expence. His gallant
Pliend bad made no objection to the production
of the papers, and theretole lie would say no
more bu. that he should be tih!e lo prove, that
%Too the whole (o'er ships, taking into considera-
tion their increased size and durability, were
built cheaper now thflo in those happy am! golden
times to which the Hon. Member had called the
totesition of the [loose, Inotoi,li be differed from
his 'Gallant Friend (S;r J Yorke) in what hi: bad
advanced that night, be was not sorry -that he
hall spoken; as it gave him an opportunity of
Paying a well deserved compliment to the tot-
'emitting attention which he had paid for so
many years, to what might be called the Civil
Service of the Navy. Much benefit bad been
derived from his exertions.. With respect to
the ship-budding now in progress, he would
Prove to' Gallant Friend, that that principle
bad not been mwerially-departed from which had
been acted upon with his approbation when they
Lad. the pleasure to see him
,at the Admiralty,
anti not a vessel had been pin on the stocks but in
Pursuance of that system, to which he (Sir J.
Yorke) had been a party. They all knew that
ships would, its he course of time, fall into 41t,
day, but that 130 \vere now being built was
,that c
tr. which he was no aware, and he could not on-
ecive where the Hon. Gentleman had obtained
Iris information. Jo deciding on what ought to
he done in this respect, they had not been led
31Way by the present naval depression of any fo-
keign Power; nor, on the other hand, had they
&offered themselves to be influenced by the atten-
tion which any toreigo Power might find itself
able to bestow oil its navy ; but they had taken
*hat he thought a proper medium, by determin.
jug on. the number of ships which it would be
desirable to possess in case of a new war, and
they were merely engaged ill Completing that !min-
tier, and not in building; at random, as had been
supposed, or over.manutacturiog men of war, as
apprehended by his Gallant Friend. He was-glad
to have am opportunity of speaking of the case of
Sir Robert Seppings. For that meritorious
indi-
v'irlr;tal, lila G dant Friend could not feel more
respect that' was common to the whole Navy
tiard. He \.v*oultl state what had been done in
this case. The Admiralty bad last year recoil'.
tuended to the Prince it eget)t the grant of a son)
money in favour of Sir R Sepping. This re-
commendation had been approved of by iris Royal
tiehness, but Of course this circumstance could
bi,,°l be expected to reach the ears of his Gallant
before the meeting of Tarliament. He
could, however, assiire him, that the subject had
'lever been knit sight of, and a grant of 50001.
been resolved upon, in addition to the ho-
nour, which had been mentioned by his Gallant
Sir B. MARTIN would take upon himself to say,
rim When the Papcis were produced, the Hon:
14vntleman would be tound incorrect in all his
poitsts_ The documents could not be produced
vvithont gieat difficulty and labour, but what could
De done, should be done. Two years ago the
ton,„,itice on the Public Expenditure, from a
laudable anxiety to effect every possible retrench-
Ittent, had kept him (Sir B. Martin) for more
than two hours before them, on the subject of an
knhappy clerk whom they thought it might be
Practicable to get rid of. If such Returns were
t:t he-culled for, it must not excite surprise it an
increase of the Establishment should be found
accessary,
Mr, HUME said, it had been denied that his
statements were correct. lie pledged himself
(and this he wished to be remembered) that they
(I%votiltl mot be denied when 11.. e Papers were pro-
ueed. With respect to the difficulties that
1 . •
In the way of their production, he thought
the
~ to so trifling that for t pounds he would under-
•'nkC to pay for them himselt..—(A latigh.)--41e ‘vo,
ttrl be at the expence of producing them hint.
it'll', if the Gentlemen opposite would allow him
li"vebs to them. The difficulties started were but
fit'
!node in which Ministers thought it expedient
" troother• inquiry.
41r. Cuottett remarked, on what had just fallen
ere `n the .Hott. Gentleman, that the papers which
I'4ll just called for were to be ranted ;—the
gti advice had been given to him as to the.mode
4,ll‘‘rhicli he should call for them, in order that lie
accomplish his object, and this he called
ta
titteuipt to smother intioiry. He rather thong ht
course pursued by himseh and his Honourable
44d, might with mote justice be stalled court-

ing jut-inky. He retied that the accounts totild
be produced as easily as the Hon. Gentleman sup-
posed. • one paper it would he very difficult to
make out, and he doubted whether it could be
correctly given at last. Ed-tough, however, would,
be,prodoced .to prove that the Honourable Gen-
tleman
.was mistaken in all big statements) and
that the accounts were at present !apt better, and
with more economy than formerly.
Mr. Hums said, he had not called for the par-
ticulars, but for the total and aggregate amount.
Sir J. Yorme was glad to have received the in-
formation afforded by his Honourable Friend (Mr.
Croker), Without wisLing to make any invidious
comparisons, he, could not help remarking, that a
short time ago the stun of 50001. had been granted
to a Bow-street Magistrate, Mr. Graham. He
did not see how the services of an individual, in
examining .a criminal, could be compared with
those rendered to the country by Sir Robert Sep-
ping. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would hive no objection to substitute
10,0001. for 50001. in the intended grant, for the
latter sum he thought a very paltry -reward for
Sir R. Sepping.
The CHANCELLOR of the ExCHEQUER said,
the grant of 50001. had-been proposed to the Re-
gent, with the united sanction of the Admiralty
and Treasury. With respect to the comparison
which had been made, he had only to remark that
Sir R. Sepping, with the honour conferred upon
him, would receive the intended grant, retain-
ing all the emoluments of ins situation, while
Mr. Graham, retiring from ill health, received the
50001.-granted to him in lieu of all the cumin-
menta accruing to him from the situation he had

The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. CALLAGHAN trini,ed for an account of the
qn.lntity and r-al vtine of all lititis'A goodo
im-
pot ed t,ro Ireland, t•ubject to the ad valorem duty
.1. 10 per mg. under the 6th article of the Act of
Union ; and of all woolleirmatitilacrnres imported
into Ireland, and known by the name of old and
new draperies, together with•the amount of duty
paid on the same by virtne of the said Act in
each year, up to the sth January, 1819, Fie also
moved for the pronuction of siutil,tr accounts of
Irish goons imported into En2lan,t, and for a re-
turn of the number of stills at work in 1817,1815,
and 1819, specifying the contents of • the same,
Find the duty paid thereon in each )ear.
After a few words hom the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, Mr, W. PARNELL, Nlt C HUTCHIN•
SON, and Mr. L FORSTER, tie ;oil wa. agreed
to.---The papers were then bron4ht up and or-
dered to he printed..
SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL.
On the motion or Lord CASTEhREAGH, the
House.resolved itself into-a Committee on the
Seditious Meetings Prevention Bill.
Lord ALTHORP objected 10 that part of the
seventh clause which went to make a meeting ,il-.
legal if a person not resident in the parish remain-
ed there after being ordered to depart, and hoped
an amendment would be moved,

. .
Sir J. MAJoatnANKs suggested an amendment,
to make the meeting illegal if it. opno,ed the re-
moval of the individual ordered to depart.
Mr: DENMAN, Lard :MILTON, Lord FOLKE.
811 d Mr„ Condemned the
clause as it at present:A:nod, and forcibly poittted,
out the eyils,-miscOOCeptions,- and'inctopiistencies
that might he 'expected to arise from it. The
clause was explained and defended hyLurd CASTLE-
REAGH. Mr. L. FotisTec, Mr, BATHURST,andthe
ATTORNEY-GENERAL, MO it was finally 4tnentted,
after much discussion, So As to make those meet-
ings illegal tr-otn,tVhiCh a.persouLwho had no right
to be present,,x_chtsed to depart,. on being ordered
by the Magistrates to retire.
Mr. DENMAN Moved to insert a proviso that this
provisioushould not extend to County Meetings,
and such as were excepted -in the first clause of
the

Aiter a. words from Lord CASTJ.EREAGU,
Lord A. HamILToN, Sir. J. SRBRIGHT, Lord MIL-
TON, Mr. ELLISON, the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, Mr.
DCNMAN, tile ATTORNEY-GENERAL; and Mr.
PRIMROSE, Mr. Dentudn's proviso Was negatived,
and the original clause was agreed to, as amend.
ed, without a division.

Mr..; P. GRANT objected to the clause for dig-
persing meetings in case the removal of a stran-
ger should be obstructed. If the meeting did not
obstruct the removal, and the resistance should
be on the part of the stranger, why should the as-
sembly be dissolved ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH and the SOLICITOR-GENE-
RAL contended that no additional power was given
by.the clause to Magistrates ; and that it was so
worded, that ibe tib?( ruct ion must be offered by
the meeting to authorize its dispetsion.
The clause was then agreed to.

011 the clause for indemnifying Magistrates in
cases where they should have been compelled to
use force to disperse meetings, •
Mr. DENMAN wished to know whether Magis-
trates were to be protected in case lives shotild
have been lost in consequence of resistance. If
so, this ►.• as a new principle, which was not con-
tained even in the Riot Act, -for resistance by that
Act was only made felony without benefit of
clergy, but did not authorize the destruction of
lives.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended that the
principle was not a new one, and that the exist-
ing 14w allowed Magistrates to employ force in
the dispersion of 111egal meetings. •
Mr. DENMAN begged 10 derlyili toto the law of
his Hon. and Learned Friend. The ekisting law
gave no power to Magistrates to put down lawful
meetings by force, as it would be proved by a re-
ference to Hawking' Pleas of the Crown.
Mr. J. P. GRANT bad yet to learn that any
Court of Law bad come to a decision on that sub-
ject. On the contrary, Lord Chief Justice hale,
speaking to that quest on, laid dotvn, that it re-
quired-the force of an Act of Parliament to protect
Magistrates againit the eharge of murder who bad.
acted on the interpretation of his Hon.and Learned
Friend (the Solicitor-General). And was it noe
to go to the sem Id, that whenever any assembly
met for public discuisian, Magistrates were en-
titled to let loose troops of horse upon the peop!e ?
(Hear !)—He certainly felt warm upon the sub-
ject, for be bad never heard a more monstrous pro-
position, than that the Elous,c Should becalled upon
to legislate that Usigistrates „should be authorised.

to disperse a legal assembly by forte, and to com-
mit impunely the crime of murder !—(Near•, hear,
hear !)—No lawyer, he. was sure, had ever beture.
expressed such an opinion; he was sorry-that
any thing which would countenance it shOulil
now be sent forth to the world. It it was so
intended, however, let he done openly, and let
the (douse at once enact that it was liiwenl for
Aiagistrates to disperse legal assemblies,"rind that.
if murder ensued they were not to be considered
_

- -
The ont-ICIToR-GF.IstEriAL stated, alai by' the
statute of Henry VII; Magistrates were invest.'
ed with the same pms'er of •dispersing unlawful
assemblies as in the
.case of riots. Jr was clear
not only that they had, but that they must
have, the power of suppresSiug trulaWful meetings
by other means than the apprehension of Offend-
rug ,
individnAls. For soppositrg, as had lately been
the case, public assemblies to consist of 50.000
persons, how could they apprehend them all or
disperse them, if they were not allowed to have
recourse to other means ? If they could do it by
mere apprehension let them first try that as it was
fit ; hut it it did not succeed, they were entitled
to use the degree of force requisite for the object,
• bot no more, so that they acted tinder a 'cry heavy,.
responsibility, for if they employed more force
than was necessary, they could be called to ac-
count for so doing before the tribunals of. the
conntry.---The clause was then agreed to.
On 'the Clause for regulating places where lec-
tures are delivered and debates are held,
The iVrTORNEY-GENRRAL said, that in 'order.
to show thn.necessity. of such a clause, he should
read one or two of the questions .whiett had been
discussed, for the last three months, at debating
places in the Metropolis, where people were ad-
mitted on paying a shilling at the door. The firit
was entitled Jack, Ketch, and consisted of the fol-
lorviug subject :—" Which of the three following
professions has a grater leniency to harden the
human • heart, the Gravedigger, 'the- Hangtn,m,
or the Tarrson i" He need not add how tke,ques-..
tion had been decided. The next was—" Whe-
ther Mr Justice Abbott's refusal to stiffer Car.
Irle to read the Scriptures on his trial teas to
be attributed to sincere reverence for that work,
or to the. fear that its supposed absurdities :sort
falsehood should he publicly exposed ?" ‘Vere
not such disenssions most pernicious, and
deserving to be pot down',? He then read a passage
from " The Black Dwarf," en which Mr. ‘Vooler
said, that Reformers wanted concentration s that
they should•only feel for, Reformers : that there
slronld he a communication by (lelegates : that per....
sons of their o,vn description should be employed
to attend meetings, and to address the people
that they should" have Monthly breakfasts,. and if
possible 11 idical reading rooms in evety town. It
was to meet this evil, and to prevent sue h /pro-
ceedings, that the present ci seas introduced.
Similar provisions had been 'enacted in 1817 and
1796, and the 36th of the King had been almost
copied vetbatim, only extending it to places at
wijCh persons publicly read, and empowering Ma-
gistrates to demand admission to hear' what passed,
and if they found that sedition or blasphemy were
tats lit, to disperse the,assetnbly. •
Sir Howl% [;I a RON inquired whether any pr(Y7e-
cution had heel) institured against • the persOuS
vi?lit.r..had printed the papers and questions to which,:
•the Jfioo. and Learned Gentleman had alluded ?

The,ATTuaNeY-GENnem. said, that no prose
-cation had f)een instituted, but that a tine Bill
'had been found against one of the individuals. -
141 r. J. P. GRANT contended, that > s the clause
was worded, it would put down every meeting, of
Geritlernen Who paid for the room in which they
assembled, or whit took any refreshments.
The ATTORNE AL filld LOrdCASTL ERE AGH
contended, that it had no such effect, ahil would
only put down those debating societies formed for
the purpose of raising and collecting money.
Atter some ob'ervations from. llr. Denman and
'Mr. Phillips, the clause was agreed to.
On the clause flirecting that any action or suit
.against magistrates, or peace officers, 'must be
commenced three months after the fact commit-
ted, wliiist suits against individuals for offences
agaiosi the Act must be' commenced within six
months,

Lord FOL.KBSTONR objected that it would thus
be put out of t►►e po►ver of individuals wrongly
accused by Magistrates, and whose trial would
not come ou for six months, if they were acquit-
ted, to bring an action fur dani.l,v-s.
Mr. G. LAMB moved an amendment, that the
time for commencing an action against is Migis-
trate be extended to six instead of three mouths.
After some conversation betwtcn Mr. BA-
THURST, Mr. BARHAM, ti►e ATTORNEY-GCNERAL,
HMI Mr. J. V. GRANT, the amendment was agreed

At the suggestion of Mr: J. P. GR4lsi'r, the clause
directing-that persons bringing au action against
the Magisirates in Scotland, should pay treble
costs i❑ case they failed to establish their charges,
was put on the same footing as that for Enkland,
and it was settled that the costs should only be
double,
The remaining clauses were agreed to without
any observatiout.
Lord CASTLEREAGH then brought in seven ad-
ditional
.clauses. The first provided, that after
proclamation was !wide at any meeting for "its
dispersing, it should be lawful for any person le-
gally present to seize and carry before a. Nj agis-
trate or Justice of the Peace .any person illegally
attending.

littouGHAm supposed ir ,8 lodicrous case; if
every legal man seized his radical a i a meer.iiig--:-14y-
of 1500—of which two-thirds were radicals, then
the 500 loyal persons having'paired oil with their
captures, thete would still remain 500. disaffected
to earry,on the business. of the assembly.
Lord. CAATLERSAGH reproved the Honourable
Member, who had just broken up the Committee
on account of the lateness of the hour, and now
came down to delay it by cutting a joke on the
first clause.that was proposed. It was absurd to
argue as if it were compulsory on the loyal to,
seize each an offender.

The Clause was then agreed to, as were the fol-
lowing 4"-",

2. The Bill not to extend to any meeting holden in
any room or apartment, &c. any thing to the contrary not-
withstanding.
3. Not to extend to any meeting for the'eleetion of a Mem-
bcr of Parliament for any county, city, stewat try, borough,

&c. holden between the issuing of a writ and before its
return.

4. Any subdivision of a parish or district to he subject to
.thosilme regulations as the parish.or district itself.
5.
,All flecturiiirY fines; P.4alties, atoberists,•abute Z.lll. may ..
.be rei3Overed by'acfion of dehli; with various regulations as
to proceedings in English and Scotch CouCis._
~
6. Al! pecuniary hues, &c., to he appropriated'one-Alf 10'
the Informer'and the other inoiety to the Crown.' - • . -- -•
7. The measure to he in etrect in London -and twenty
miles round one day after, and throughout the rest of the
kingdom in ten days after the Act passed ; and to be in force
for five years, or six week's after the oneeting of :the first en,
suing Parliament after the expiry of that period.
These clauses being severally agreed to, ivills
.only a brief cenversatioo on the
.34, whieb Mtr:
BARING and Mr. BEOUGIIAM thought would inter-
fere with canvassing previous tcytheissne of..w,rits
for new Members, - and Lord .CAsTLERRAGn de..
tended as
,repealing the la w riiiring„ele:ctioits, 4,..a
taking away no right previously enjoyeil,., .. .
Mr. BARING made :soine obscryations on the..
indecent contests relative to
,jail and other fees., ,
now so ofteti brought into Publiz and disgracefid,...
dispute, which he wished some of the Crow n.
Lawyers would legally define and -settle.. .-
Lord Atm-10RP said,. from the Papers. before
the House there appeared to be no cause for;alartn-
or iosurrectiOn, except in a few .parts of •a few.
counties. The'Noble Lord (casticreagit)Jhought :
otherwise ; but the question for the Commbtre
or) consider was, ‘vbctiter such a measure as now
proposed should'or should not be ext,euded over
the whole country. - It not necessary in,the..case
Of a seizure for amts, it .coold not he in the .case _
oftdoing away the danger of krge mc.....tiugs. The -
effect, however, of the clauselie intended to pro, '
pose, would be,. not to afford facilities 'tor intrud-
ers to escape; but to say, the Aligistrates from.,,,
danger and the people frosts greater oppressiontis.;
than would,otherwise he practised on them. He -,
felt the necessity of being as iliel as: passible, hut-
the Rill being a 1311 of a restrictive nature, be..,
„insinered it should only he applied to those coun-
ties which were known to. he partially dist urjicri..
In the operation of the clause he intend to pro-.
hose, he wonitl include within the me. g ‘,l the
Act the counties of York,(Wesr Ridioo.,ChrHiire,
Lancashire, Durbant, Northumberland, CMrine.r-
-I,tod, , ITarwickshire; Rehire iv, La, ;ilk, and:
Der b,, and the town of Nottingham, and all such
oilier places.as the Lords Licutenatos of couotofs,,:
might conceive Necessary to .be...placed wi:hin
~ns
operation. ,

Mr. CARTWRIGHT thought.the tranquil parts.,6l
the country would object to this
a-60ff- he-next affected, if the-pleasure were-not
general. ,
i‘Jr...llosity-wooD said,
,his constituents, wilt
Wt re as-loyal a.body and as iutleitendext a body
-any other •in aingiand, would:feel themselves
sorely,aggrieved by the.enactment of.„any, general.
measure on the subject, • ,_ .
• Mr, W.,IAMID3 felt, satisfied it would be necesr
••• • • •
nary, tor „the Government to earey..t;jth then'. iii
the ..adoption .of their.. ptopOs.ed „measures, the
wishes of the sound qud.loyal pli.t..tion of
.the peo. ,
ple. But when he recollected the measures of
1817, antl.',4lre" objections urged,agamoheni, he
could.,no,t, help saying.,_that to pply measurts.
severity,where•Li,ecreunnesessary would only•,.
be. to. excite ir.ritation,.6l4l lead' to no usef.ttl flue
pose. The rights of the C. own andth,e_People
might be abused, and should in such a. case be li--
Mired ; but when, us in the present case,.the
whole rights of the People were to.be inwadfd, it
would be nowise to disturb that whiCh was, well,
anti to eniElanger,tlte peace-of those who needed
no such provisions to' insure their trangoillity.
Danger existed in the ma‘nolacturing Counties, but
where was the probability that: this would
tend to apart of the populatiOn very diffe.iently
situated 'He.believed•they could nal be practised
in (hose phices with any prospect of success.
ritati:;n and discontent %rOuld be excited in the'
minds of the people of those counties Who felt
their loyalty, and could only conceive they were
wrongfully visited for the errors or the sins of
sinful counties.

Mr. C. GRANT Pdinilted the necessity of carrying
along with those measures as-much of public opi-
nion as was possible, hut the first object was to
carry their purpose into effect. No Viet could be
more.plainly fuoved than thttiecessity upon which
they were legislating, tie would not now discuss
'he extent of the danger, as Ile might assume teat

it VHS admitted by the Hou.4e. roege dan-
gers did not arise merely from distress ;
system had appeared Wife!' was not the creature
of distress, though it had availed itself of the-
advantages supplied from that source% Tile

question therefore was, whether, with the con-
viction that such a spirit was. in existence, with a
knowledge of its increasing. activity in making
converts, and of the distress which constitutcd its

chief aliment, they should. anticipate the danger
or leave the country, not to the chance of a small
evil, but_ to_the cbances ..of ao.evil growing to
that extent which might soon require; not mea-
sures of prevention, bur measures of suppression
and dispersion. Two engines were employed for
the propagation Ora sysiciiiiithe'bbjt:ct of which
was national and_not.:_local,:those -engine's were
public meetings and, Could any one
imagine that local Bills would succeed in puttin
it doWn---;or Was-11 Viol mote 'probable' that they
Woirld-have to follow the- dis'affeeted with unequal
stops into whir counties 3 It was, necessary to
destroy their hopes,,arvi_shew. them that l'ailia-
rtient was determined Ilvertish theit' designs. An
lion. Gent. had said,-that ;the system ,could nut
be Carried into other p:iitTs of the country, but he
Was iTor willthg"'ied the experiment tried, l,ow
mod) poison the—frame 61 the 'country could bear
destrpyat4 iyK4 in beltalf of that
poptgaiion which be ss.ass ofliciaPyconuected,
anti to whose inte'resTs-fieiitaS !mimic!, Oat he Yetis
anxious-dad Bill-should trim! Ili its present Shape.
It was said to be a- Bill of4rdetcion ; on the con-
trary. it was one of protection. It was coercive,.
not aitainsi the people, but against the enemies
of the people, -whose name was so often usurped
by. revolutionary demagogues. lie must sayohat
it th,s measote was made local, it would be ail
encroachment on the high privileges and liberties
of the undisturbed counties, as it would deprive
them of that protection- to which they were en-
titled. T 0 use the words of Chief Justice Holt,
it would be " an assault upon tile people of Eng-
land." It was not the Nobility, or the Commons,
that Isere to be protected by this measure ;it was
the honest, the uncontaminated, and industrious

peasantry of the count; y, whom they Were to