The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-09 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The House was summoned to attend in the House of Peers,
to hear the Royal Assent given by Commission to several pub-
lic and private Bills.—(See Lords.)
Mr. MANNING and Mr. DIIUMMOND took the oaths, and
their seats.

MISCELLANEOUS.
)Ir. DAVENPORT -presented a petition from the Church-
wardens, Overseers and other Inhabitants of Maccletfield,
against the Poor Relief Bill.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. WM. SMITH presented a'petition from certain Pro-
testant Dissenters calling themselves Unitarians, praying that
alterations might be made in the Marriage Ceremony, as they
were -obliged to conform at present to certain parts of it to
which they did not subscribe. The Hon. Member thought there
was no difficulty in granting the object prayed for by the peti-
tioners ; he was ready to bring forward a measure for that pur-
pose immediately, and he could net conceive that it would
meet with any objection from the Spiritual Lords in another
place. As the Session was, however, so far advanced, he
should move that the petition be laid on the table, and leave
the subject to the consideration of the House for another
Session.

After the Petition was read,
Dr. PHILLIMORE said, that he was not in the house
'when the Hon. Member addressed it ; but if the measure he in-
tended to propose was the same as that brought before the
House a few Sessions ago, he should certainly.oppose it. He
was not averse from granting relief to the petitioners in some
less objectionable way, but he honed the honourable Member
would allow the petition to be printed, and to stand over till an-
other Session.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that if the Honourable Member had
been in the House, he would have heard that he proposed to
bring forward the measure next Session.
Mr. WHITMORE brought up the Report of the Commit-
tee appointed to inquire concerning Receivers of Taxes.
Mr. BARING asked, if Minutes of the Evidence taken be-
fore the Committee accompanied the Report ? it was very de-
sirable that it should be before the House.
WH rrm ORE said, that the Evidence was not printed.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that the Evidence had not been print-
ed, in consequenee•of the voluminous mass which had been laid
before the Committee, much of which was, of course, very irre-
levant to the subject.
Mr. CALCRAFT considered the Evidence necessary, and
should move that it be printed.
Mr. R. SMITH said, that the Evidence. went to such an ex-
tent, that it could not be printed in time to be placed in the
hands of Members during the present Session.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Macdonald, Dr.
Phillimore, and the Chancellor cf the Exchequer,
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that in consequence of what had
fallen from the lion. Member for 'Lincoln, he should not press
a motion for the printing of the Evidence.
Mr. BARING considered it indispensible, and should
therefore move that it be printed as well as the Report.—
Ordered.
Mr. BENNET moved for returns of Members of Parlit-

meat holding Offices under the Crown, in the Public Offices,
or otherwise, with accounts of the net income of each office,
whether arising from salary or emoluments, and when and by
whom appointed. '.klso of all Members.hohling the reversion
of Offices.

After a short conversation between the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, Mr. Hume, Mr. Brougham, and Mr. Lushington,
who. were inaudible, the returns were ordered to be made by
the Clerk.

Mr. J. P. GRANT presented a Petitionfrom Wm. Fairley,
complaining of some irregularities in the Court of Session in
Edinburgh.—Ordered to lie on the table.

POOR LAWS.
Sir R. WILSON presented a Petition from certain Free-
holders from a village in Lancashire, against the Poor Relief
Bill. The Hon. Member supported the prayer of the Petition,
and said that he should recommend to. those Gentlemen who
wished to depopulate the country by a plan for preventing Mar-
riage among the Poor, to read an Essay, written by a learned
and reverend; though nut a very serious divine, entitled " A
Modest Proposal ;" lie meant Dean Swift.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that he could not avoid noticing
what had fallen from his Hon. and Gallant Friend in present-
ing the Petition before the House. He must deprecate the plan
of making such remarks upon the Bill of his Hon. and Learn-
ed Friend like the present, when its general merits were to he
discussed at a future period. And- he could not help thinking,
that the part taken by his Hon. and Gallant Friend, however
pure might be his entendons, would render him rather the
enemy than the friend of the pOOr. The Hor. and Learned'
Gentleman then argued against the allegations set forth in the
Petition, and the ground upon which the, Hon. Member who
presented it opposed the Bill. With respect to the doctrines
of Mr. Malthus, which were described as consisting of theories,
he was of opinion that the arguments made use of by that Gen-
tleman were more of a practical nature than any which he had
seen upon the subject.—(Hear !)—And he was sorry that those
doctrines had been misrepresented out of doors, as well as
within, for the purpose of casting odium upon them, and upon
the measure of his Hon. and Learned Friend. He then sup-
ported the principles of the bill, and said that it was an act of
humanity towards the poor man, to give him an opportunity of
reflecting and providing for the consequences before he en-
tered into the married state. By the present laws he was
forced into it without even a choice, and thus all the evils of
which so much complaint was made, became entailed upon the
country. The poor man ought not only to have the opportu-
nity of considering before'he made a compact of so much im-
portance, and of such serious duration, but there was a mo-
ral obligation upon him to think well before he
.did so, both as
to his own future happiness and as to the misery which might
await the unborn children that would be the 'consequence of
that union. It was a wicked thing for a man to form a mar-
riage connection without a prospect of being able to give sup-
port to his family. This was held to be the case among the li
higher and middling classes of society; and the poor man ought
to possess the same feeling, and by the alteration proposed to
be made in the laws, he would be enabled to carry it into effect
if he did possess it.
Colonel WOOD considered the thanks of the House due to
the Hon. and Learned Gentl_man who brought forward the
measure now in progress through the House. He condemned
the course adopted by the opponents of the measure, and hoped
the House would give it every countenance and support wren
it came before them on Thursday next for general discussion.
He observed that a motion of an Hon. Gentleman for the re-
peal of the Husbandry Horse Tax stood for that night, and
would take precedence of the debate upon the Bill. As this
would seriously injure its progress, he hoped the Hon. Member
would not press his motion upon that occasion. He believed
that all sides of the House agreed in the paramount importance
of the subject with which the Bill was connected.
Sir J. GRAHANI said, that he had' received letters from
Carlisle, which represented all the principal inhabitants of that
place to be in favourof the Bill.
Mr. MAXWELL represented the accounts which he had
received from various quarters to be of a different nature from
those alluded to by the Hon. Baronet. He believed that W.;
persons ou't of a all -civif-the" alatry 'Wife"decidedly
hostile to the principles of the Bill.
Mr. BIRCH said in the town which he had the
.honour to
represent, the measure was regarded as one whose consequences
must be most destructive to all classes.____

---111r:W.S11117fH objected to the Dill. He wished to ask
the Hon. Baronet opposite whether the correspondence he had
received from Leed; was Of the same character as that to which
he had alluded as coming from Carlisle ? He understood that
there was the strongest feeling among the manufacturers of
Leeds against the Bill.
Sir R. HERON said that he believed the subject to be one of
such magnitude, that the proposed alterations were not yet un-
derstood"by, the country. He hoped that fl,r the sake of dis-
cussion, and of the advantages which must arise therefrom, his
Hon. and Learned-Friend would persist with his measure, but
not with the intention of passing it into a law (hiring the pre-
sent Session..

Mr. SCARLETT said, that he never expected to meet a ge-
neral concurrence of opinion upon a measure of so muchim-
portance as that which he had introduced to the House. There
was, however, scarcely any difference of opinion as to the mag-
nitude of the eVils wnich existed under the -Present system of
poor laws ; yet none of the plans suggested 'for their relief
would be found to agree. Now he thought it no small recom-
mendation to his own plan that every than preferred .it next to
his own. He had received innumerable communications from
able and intelligent men in all quarters of the country, and
each of them thought the measure a very good one, if .some-
thing of his own could but be acit?cd to it. At Mancliestcr
the question haci been vtry ably discussed and examined, and
of course some were to be found who objected to it. llut a
very large proportion in that town considered it worthy of
adoption. It was quite clear, and agreed to on all hands, that
some remedy was necessary, and the sooner it was applied the
better.

Mr. MAXWELL thought, that in justice those Mannac-
turers who derived profit from the empkyrnent of people, should
be required to
.guarantee the support of those people when
unable to work, instead of allowing tncm to-become a barthen
upon the parocnial rates.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that he was in the daily habit of re-
ceiving a mass of correspondence, which condemned the mea-
sure before he House altogether. He agreed that three were
serious, evils arising out of the present system-of Poor laws,
but he was for applying a remedy to the defective parts, -while
his Hon. and Learned Friend wished to put the
ssystem up alto-
gether by the roots.
The Petition was then ordered to lie upon the table. Upon
the question that it be printed,.
Sir It. WILSON said, that he should not reply to the per-
sorral remarks which bed been made upon him, but that he had
felt it his duty to call the public attention to the Bill es much
as possible, in order to stop its progress.
Si: J. NEWPORT considered that the question had been
discussed prematurely and regretted that it had been so. When
the time came for it to be brought regularly forward, he hoped
it would be discussed more dispassionately. He was quite cure
that what had now taken place could not tend to advance the
true interests of any class whatever.
Mr. DAVENPORT fully conthral in what had fallen
from the last speaker. • -
Mr. MIME said he must protest against any objection to
give an hour of the time of the House- to the consideration of a
Petition upon a subject like that Which the present Petition an-
braced.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY considered that the
subject could not be discussed with any wit of advantage uf.on
the presentation of a Petition.—(Dear, hear !)
Mr. H. GURN.EY spoke against the Bill. If the House
passed it he should consider the passing of it to be an act of
flagrant insanity. • • - - • •
After a few farther observations from Mr. Scarlett, Mr.
Monck, Mr. F. Palmer, and Sir J. hebright, the Petition was
ordered to be printed.
Dr. •PH I LLI 1M ORE presented a Pctrtion from the C.lowr-
hors of the Infirmary for Curing Diseases of the Eye. which.
was referred to the t:ommittee upon the Ophthalmic Flo,pitel.
Lord NUG'ENT moved for returns of the names of the Go-.
verr.ors and LicutenaLt.Governors of the Leewards Islands,
with an Amount of their salaries and all otter emoluments.—
..Also of the Officers of Justice in the said Islands, with ac-
counts of their sa!aries.

Lord W. BENTIisiCK fixed upon • the 21st of June for
bringing, forward his premised motion with respect to !Sicily.
COIII3IITTE E. OF WA YS AND MEANS.

The CHANCELLOR of the iisfellEUEli moved that
the Egon cf the Committee of Way and Mcaha shoula Le
brought up:
Mr. Strieant O 1 SLOW contended for the right of prece-
dency for hismotion relative to the Usury Laws Repeat Bill,
which sto.cd first aux:lz tLe Or‘ftra of the Day. lie was the

more anxious upon this subject, as the measure had been so
long pending, and as he had been- applied to from so many
quarters to bring it to a decision, that he felt-his personal honour
concerned in resisting any further delay:. .It -was for the l-idua,s.,
however, he wee aware, to determine which motion should hay,.
the precedency-, and he would appeal to its discretion by mot',
nog an Amendment, that:Cie.-Usury Laws-Repeal Bill atot;.l
be read a second time. . -
Lord LONDONDERRY opposed the Amendment.
after a conve.rsstion,• in which Sir R. Heron, Mews.
Bennet, Davenpo.lt,toul Abercrombie took a part,
Mr. Serjeant ONSI,ONY expressed his readiness to
to whatever should appear to be the feeling of the House.
Mr. J.. P. GRANT, while he concurred entirely in the prin-
ciple of the-measure, recommended the Honourable and i.,,o4sta -
cd Gentleman to postpone it to the next Session.
Mr..Serjear.t ONSLOW then - moved, that the Bill be read
a second'time that day three months..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thanked the
Hon. and' Learned Gentleman in his own name and it that of
the 'Government, for the courtesy with which he had cone.entril
to postpone his Bill.. •
Mr. DAVENPORT begged leave also to thank the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman for his courtesy.
Mr. CAJACRAFT rose also to return his thanks to the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman—(A laugh.)--He was the more grate-
ful tohim.,as he (Mr. Serjeant Onslow) had made, with a 1131C.L.'
Metter-grace and more effect, precisely the wend motion which it
was his (Mr. C..in) intention to have made. Be Loped the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, if' he found the same prejudices VX-
istuig against his measure next Session ac he did in this, would
be equally ready 'to take the same course.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW Said, he should certainly bring- for-
ward the measure in the next Session.
WAYS AND MEANS.
-

On the question that the Report of the. Com-
mittee of Ways and Means Should be brought up.
Lord A. IlAiunToN directed the attention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to an Excise
Bill, which had recently passed, and which was
found to presS severely on some of the Scotch
Brewers.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Nia3 sur-
prised if the measure was so objectionable that it
had not been complained of before, as it had re-
ceived the Royal Assent before Lister. The
Bill only went to give that protection to the re-
venue, which every- tradesman would think ne-
cessary for his commercial concerns.

Mr. MAXWELI, said, he had. fort,:arded a re-
presentation 'of the hardship' complained of to
the Board of Excise skortly after ,the passing of
the Bill.

Mr. J. P.. GRANT objected to the Board of
Excise being allowed to interpret in its own
way an Act of Parliament.

Mr. 111,inEeLEy had now to bring before the
House some strong cases, respectina which it
would be for the Chancellor o: 'the Exchequer to
offer some expli: lation. In the last year he had
come down to the House and asked for the folloir-
lug supplies:—

For the Army ••• • •-•- - • - £9,422,0C9
For the Navy . - 6,6g7,70
For the Ordnance - - 1,204,0t0
For the Miscellaneous Services _ 2,100,0)
Noiv the expence incurred under the last head,
for which the, Chancellor of the Exchequer
had demanded' 2,100,000/. had amounted to
2,462,1281.,giving an excess on the miscellaneous
Estimates to-the amount of 262,1281. The ex-
pellees of the Ordnance were different in amount
from the supply, and there had been-variations
under the other heads, so that the result was,
the -total expence exceeded by 373,417/. what
had been called for -by-lhe Chancellor of the
Exchequer when he brought forward his Budget
in 1820. Other additions had berm made which
brought the total to 782,0811. He wished; to
call the attention of the. House to this circum-
stance, to prevent a recurrence of such a d;.-
parity .between the estimates and the. 'expen-
diture, and with a view to effect this, he hoped
in future that all the supplies would •be voted
before the Chancellor of the Exchequer brought
fOrward the Budget. He complained that the
Chancellor. of the ,Exchequer had this. year esti-
mated the taxes at 200,0001. more than he could
expert them to produce:
The CHANCELLOR :9f the EXCHEQUER believed
the Hon. Gentleman would find that scarcely
any Budget
.had ever been produced that was
not liable to observations of the same kind. One
cause of the difference remarked would be found
in the alteration made with respect to the charge
for the disembodied militia. ThateXpence, which
had heretofore been met by the land tax, had
been added to the supplies. The practice had
been, without any vote of supply for the militia,'
to provide for the charge thus created, in the
way he had described. All the sums applied to
the various services of the lust year had been re-
gularly carried: through a committee of Supply
and embodied in the Appropriation Act, which
subjected them to the revision of the House in
every stage of that Bill. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman entered into various explanations', which
could not be distinctly heard in the gallery. He
vindicated the 'Estimates which he had .brought
down—insisted, that of late years a greater ap-
proach had been made to regularity in this re-
spect than had formerly been customary, arid
was satisfied that the statements which he had
-submitted to the House,in the' last year, would
be found as substantially correct as any that had
been made on a similar occasion..

Mr. MABERLEY was disposed to overlook the
circumstance of small sums not ' ; buf a
disparity like that which he had noticed, seemed
too great to be overlooked. '
Sir J. NEWPORT thought the arrears of
.ba-
lances ought always to be brought Under the view
of the House.

The en ANCELLOR of the F.:xozr.Qtrit explained.
The Report was then •b:otight the
question that it be read, • •
Mr..T. P. GRANT said, he tho' 4ht it strange
that the disembodied. Militia .shoulli have
provided for in a new way, without oneworci
.
having been ;aid on the subj:•ct by the chance•i-
lor of. the Exchequer. They were contantly
arnus.ed by the `Right lion.,Gentlernan With state,
ments of debt paid.oll, but had sl;tisfied
self that so far from havi;ig paid of l any debt,
it s.7att in pc•int of fact been •actuilly incrvzsed

since the:peace. To judge of this question they
ought, ,to, look_ 'at
_what the debt was,.and.what
the objects of the' country were when the war
7s-as ended. Since that time a small reduction
had been made in our funded debt, and apparent-
ly a intichlarger reduction of our- unfunded debt
had —taken place, the latter amounting to
13,752,0001. But it was to be remembered,
that at the commencement of 1816, the country
had in hand a surplus of 5,663,0001. remaining of
the sums voted for 1815, in consequence of the
sudden termination of the War by the
.battle of
Waterloo. To this a considerable sum was .to
be:w„ided for. unclaimed Dividends appropriated
to.ihe.vnblic service, making a total of 6,105,0711.
Taking' this into consideration, and various other
eircolitnstances which he thought ought to be con-
'netted, it appeared to him that there was in
reality an increase of debt since the Peace
-arri9nnting to 7,135,2511. Instead of being a
farthing the better, it seemed to him that the
'eo;_tfitry was so much the worse: It was besides
to be reinembered that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had proposed to continue the War Excise
Du.ties- for six years, to wind up the expellees
of the war ; and on those duties not less than
12,000,000/. had been received, while the
Sinking. Fund, he thought the whole of
,it, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer
said-. only 13,000,0001. had been mortgaged
or given up for ever. If the affairs of the
-nation went on in the same way for the next five
years, he thought it would require all the firm-
ness and all the authority of the Right Hon.
Gentleman to congratulate the House on the
situation of the country. He complained of the
-manner. in which the Sinking Fund was managed.
The policy was incomprehensible which led the
Right Hon. Gentleman to keep up a nominal
Sinking Fund, charged on the Consolidated
Fond, from which he annually borrowed 12 or
1;000,000/. while he borrowed at the same time
by Exchequer Bills 9,000,0001. to make good
'the deficiency in the Consolidated Fund. This
.could have no effect but to deceive—and there
'were not many who could now be deceived.—
Such was our situation. After five years. of
peace, we were in debt more than 7,000,000/.
*than we had been at the close of the war, while
'new taxes had been imposed, which depressed
and kept down every branch of industry in the
'country. He accounted for this by referring to
the army. Let the present establishment be
compared with that of 1792. He knew that
Gentlemen on that side of the House were taunt-
ed by Ministers when 1792 was mentioned. But
let them look at the amount of the troops main-
lained in England, Ireland, and the old Colo-
nies, making what allowance they pleased for the
Pell" Colonies, and it would be found that where
Mr. Pitt had maintained two men, three were
-.kept up by the present Government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if
. the House had now for the first gene heard the
assertions, that no debt had been paid. off, that
-every branch of industry was depressed, and that
the country was verging -to its ruin ;,he should
-have thought it necessary to state his view of the.
subject, and to shew the fallacy of the arguments
of the lion. Gentleman. But the subject had
~.been so frequently discussed, that it was only
-necessary for him to remind the House of the
-debates which had already taken place. The
Won. Gentleman had begun by saying, that a part
of the funded debt and a large portion of the un-
funded debt had been paid off since the peace,
and he had then proceeded to shew that no debt jl
had been paid off at • all. He ought to have
stated that if extraordinary resources had been
placed at the disposal of Ministers, extraordinary
charges were to be met by those resources. The
various charges growing out of a war so expensive
which were to be defrayed, would he found to
amount to little less than the sums which had
remained at the command of Government at the
termination of the war., He would refer the Hon.
Gentleman and the House to the Reports of the
Finance Committee. They would shew what
debt had really been incurred, and how much
had been paid off.-
Mr. MABERLEY took a view of the financial
situation of the country in 1816, anti compared
it with that in which it- stood at present: But
for the new taxes imposed to the amount of
3,200,000/. our situation would have been much
the same as it was then' with respect to the Na-
tional Debt. He thought the calculations of the
ChanCellor of the 'Exchequer erroneous,' and
thought we were more likely to have a Sinking
Fund of 3,000,0001. next year, than one of
4,000;000/. which the Right lion. Gentleman
was of opinion might be expected. To relieve
the Country effectually, the Estimates for the
Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, and the Mis-
cellaneous ServiCes must be reduced by two
or three millions.

The Report was then read.—On the Resolu,
tion being put for the Lottery,
Mr.-llumE said, he hoped the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would devise some means of
doing without a Lottery. It was despicable to
.observe the Minister countenancing such a sys-
tem, while our Statute Book was loaded with en-
actments against every other species of gambling.
The Resolution was agreed to. The other
Resolutibns were agreed to without any remark.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
chtEouttt; it was ordered, that the House, at its
rising, should adjourn to. Wednesday next.
ALLOWANCE TO THE DUKE OF CLARENCE.
The Marquis of. LONDONDERRY rose to call,
the attention of the House to a Vote of Supply
passed by the House in the year 1818. At that
time several younger branches of the Royal Fa-
mily were about to, enter the married state, and
Parliament had thought proper to make an addi-
tional provision for their increased expenditure,
in order that the dignity of the country might be
properly supported in the Members of its Royal
Family. (It was here suggested to the Noble
Marquis by Mr. Huskisson, that he was not
exactly regular, as he should first move that the
House should go into a Cointnittee.) He begged
to apologize to the 'Rouse ; he was reminded by
his Iron. Friend that his observations should be
made in A Cornmittee ; he therefore should at pre,

sent confine himself to moving that the Speaker
should leave -the,.o hair.
Mr. Moxcic said he saw nothing to justify the
House going into a Committee. With respect to
the circumstance's of the country, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, a few nights since, had resisted
the claims of the American Loyalists on the
ground of our limited means. If our circum
stances then were such-that we could not afford
to do justice we ought not to do an act of mere
generosity. Considering too the present state
of the currency, he (Mr. Monck) thought the
application unseasonable and inauspicious.—
The present allowance of the Duke of Clarence
had been granted in the Administration of Mr.
Fox upon an increased scale, on the ground of
the depreciated state of the currency, and the
consequent high price of provisions. That state
had now been very materially altered ; the cur-
rency had become restored and the price of pro-
visions had fallen. He (Mr. M.) therefore could
not but consider the present a very ill-chosen
moment for the subject in question. Neither
should it be forgotten that we lived in a very
censorious age, and that the infirmities of exalted
individuals were viewed with
.a microscopic eye.
The prominent part taken by his Royal Highness
on a late inquiry into the conduct of the Queen
would, there was too much reason to fear, be
connected (erroneously, no dOubt) with the pre-
sent applicatimi. He should therefore oppose
the Speaker's leaving the Chair.
The question was then put, and agreed to with-
out a division.
The House being in a Committee,
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said be felt it
unnecessary to answer the observations of the
Hon. Member who had spoken last, as the sense
of the House had been so decidedly shewn upon
the subject. In consequence of the irregularity
into which he had inadvertently fallen, he had
wasted his breath ; but the House were informed
of the nature. of the present application. It ,was
merely to give effect tea Resolution passed by the
llouse in 1818. The remark of the Hon. Member
was perfectly correct, that the income of his
Royal Highness had been increased during the
Grenville Administration ; but the settlement
then made was an unmarried settlement.. When
he (Lord L.) had proposed the votes for the in-
creased incomes of the Illustrious Personages
in question, the House reduced the general scale
of expence, though there was but one feeling
upon the principle. The vote then agreed to for
the Duke of Clarence, his Royal Highness had
respectfully declined, because he thought he
could not accept it without involving himself in
difficulties, and he therefore proposed to go abroad
where he might live in retirement. Circumstances
however had induced his Royal Highness to
alter this determination, and he returned to
this country with his illustrious Consort-. Had
Providence preserved the life of the illustrious
Princess, the offspring of this marriage, he (Lord
L.) should certainly have felt it his duty to ask
the House to revise their former decision, as
his Royal Highness would necessarily have been.
put to increased expellees in providing for
the care and education of the Princess. At pre-
sent, the question was, merely that his Royal
Highness should be put. in the same situation in
which he would be had the Bill passed with
the provision of 60001. a year, which had been
voted by the House and declined by his Royal
Highness. He (Lord was sure that the
House would not wish his Royal Highness .to
suffer from the decision he had taken on the for-
mer occasion, and he trusted there was but one
feeling in the House upon the question of sup-
porting the dignity of the Royal Family. lie
proposed that the vote should take effect with
reference to the original period, and when it was
recollected that his Royal Highness stood next
in rank to the Duke of York, the Heir presump-
tive to the Throne, he trusted this would not
meet any objection. Having explained, he was
Convinced, to the satisfaction of the House,—
(Hear, hear! from the Opposition benches,)—
the question he was about to bring before them,
he had only to observe that he trusted no unfa-
vourable argument would be drawn from any con-
siderations of a personal nature. The Illustrious
Duke and his Consort were, in private life, an
-example of domestic purity, and their conduct
and. happiness in this respect could not but be
highly satisfactory to the nation. As the vote he
should propose was merely. an act of justice,-he
should now confine himself to moving a Reso-
lution,
44 That it is the opinion of this Committee that his Majesty
be enabled to grant out of the Consolidated Fund a sum not
exceeding 60001. per annum, in order to make a suitable pro...
vision for his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence, such sum
'to be calculated from the sth of April, 1818."

Mr. Humr. said, he trusted the Noble Mar-
quess would divide his motion into two branches.
it had pleased the Duke of Clarence to refuse
the original grant of the House. That grant the
House might possibly be still disposed to make
him ; but certainly the question as to arrears
stood upon very different grounds.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY thought this
an objectionable mode, as it would destroy the
spirit of the Resolution.

-
Mr. HuAtE proceeded. On a former occasion
he had asked the Noble Marquis a question rela-
tive to the property of his late Majesty, and had
.not received any. satisfactory answer, although
such an answer might have a considerable intlu-
.ence upon the .present question. Ile (Mr. II.)
was willing to put his Royal Highness upon the
same footing with the other younger branches of
The Royal Family, but he saw no reason, for any
preference. The death of his late Majesty made
a material .alteration on this subject, inasmuch as
by the new Bill passed at the commencement of
his present Majesty's reign, a distinct sum of
,2,5001. per annum had been set apart foi• the
Puke, of Clarence. The difference, therefore,
,between that su,m and 6,0001. would put his
Royal Highness on the same footing with his
younger brothers, and he (Mr. Hume) should
cert4inly 'move A. reduction of this 2,5001. from
the vote. The Noble Marquis thought the pay-
ment of the arrears a principle of justice, but he
had; not proposed •the payment of the arrears of
the 15,0001. a-year which bad been voluntarily
given up by. her present Majesty. Indeed,
the conduct of Ministers with respect - to the

other branches of the ROyal Family, was worthy
of strong remark ; for not a single shilling had
been provided for the infant child of the late
Duke of Kent, arid she was now supported by an
individual. With respect to.ttie..public conduct
of his Royal Highness the Dike ofN_Aarence, he.
(Mr. Hume) was sorry t it-hart/Not inspired
that respect which it waNdeairabl4ipuVl be
shewn to every Member of the Royal Family.
—(Hear, hear ! from the Marquess of London-
derry.)—He would repeat the expression, and
he should be glad to hear any man stand up in
•his place and say that the conduct pursued by
his Royal Highness while sitting in judgment
upon his Queen and near relation had been pro-
per. The Duke of Sussex, on the other hand,
had, with -a praiseworthy delicacy, abstained
from taking -any part in the proceedings. Ile
repeated his opinion merely in consequence of
the cheers of the Noble Marquess. He wished the
Royal Family to receive every becoming respect ;
but he also wished them to deserve it. Upon the
amended motion he was about to make, he
pledged himself to take the sense of the House
if any two friends would support him, and, if the
vote should be carried for the arrears, he would
oppose the Bill in every stage. The money re-
fused by his Royal Highness had been refus-
ed apparently with disdain, but that given up
by the present Queen had been given up from
liberal feeling. As the question of the arrears
was pressed upon the House, the present was an
opportunity for acquiring some information re-
specting the property of his late Majesty, and as
to the question of his having made a will. If no
will had been made, it was clear that the property
became public property ; and if a will had been
made, it was proper the House should know
whether the Duke of Clarence derived any be-
nefit from it. Report stated that the property
amounted to a million in value, and that it was by
will divided among the sons, and if this were the
case, the share of the Duke of Clarence would
be 200,0001. The lion. Member concluded by
moving a reduction of the vote to 3,5001. and
that the words giving it a retrospective operation,
should be left out.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had
persuaded himself that the House on the present
occasion would be unanimous : and he certainly
had not expected that that unanimity would be
disturbed by unkind observations or invidious
comparisons; comparisont which never turned to
the advantage of the individual making them, or
that of the person for whom that individual made
himself the champion. The two thousand five
hundred pounds alluded to by the lion. Member
had been granted to the Duke of Clarence when
he was very young, and had been continued ever
since. The name of the Duke of Kent had been
mentioned, but he enjoyed a professional income
of 70001. a year from the Governorship of Gib-
raltar. He repeated that this spirit of champion-
ship for one branch of the family was never at-
tended with any advantages. Another benevo-
lent observation of the Hon. Member referred to
her Majesty ; but that Illustrious Personage had
given up the sum in question because she stated
that 35,000/. would meet the annual scale of her
expenditure ; and it was to meet that scale with
respect' to his Royal Highness that the
present application was made. Upon the
other observation of the Honourable Member re-
specting his late Majesty's property he should
say a very few words. His Majesty had left a
paper which the Law Authorities had pronounced
not to be a WM. The idle tale about a million
would be answered by stating the fact that the
value of his late Majesty's personal property did
not exceed 80,000/. It was the intention of his
late Majesty that the present King should derive
the chief personal benefit, but as e will was a
nullity, the property in question belonged to his
present Majesty only during his life, as attached
to the Crown. This alone was a sufficient an-
swer to the malicious observations which had gone
abroad respecting his late Majesty's supposed
acc.imulation : and observations of a similar na-
ture had not been wanting to asperse the memory
of her late Majesty, whose property was in fact
scarcely sufficient to discharge her debts, and
those charities which had so eminently distin-
guished her illustrious life.—(Hear, hear !)—He
trusted that no second Englishman would be
found to tolerate what was asked of the House,
and he was confident that the House would not
condescend to sanction the objection taken to
th'. present vote. •
A ME MEER, whose name we, could not hear, supported the
rote, and with reference to the conduct of the Duke of Cla-sace
observed, that he was a warm supporter of the Charity which
was distinguished for assisting the countrymen of the lion.
Member for Aberdeen.

Mr. HUME said, that from the tone of the Noble Lord and
that of the last Speaker, it.would naturally be supposed he:(Nlr.
II.) had attacked the private character of the Duke of Clarence.
He (Mr. H.) denied that he had done so. He had stated, and
he would repeat, that there was nothing in the Duke's public
conduct which justified his being preferred to any of his younger
brothers. He might be in a small minority, but he should persist
in his Amendment.

Mr. HUSKISSON said, he wished merely to state the fact,
that the 2,5001. a-year alluded to as granted to his Royal High-
ness, had come under the notice of the House upon every oc-
casion of the discussion of hiS income. The House knew the
circumstance, and considered it in the nature of an equivalent
for the. want of those _professional emoluments which were in
general enjoyed by the other younger branches.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, he understood the Noble Marquess
to say, that the Duke of Clarence was the only member of the
Royal Family who did not enjoy professional emolument. The
Duke of Sussex never received a shilling of the public money
beyond his stipulated income.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY shortly explained. •
Mr. W. SMITH disclaimed all inquiry in that House into
private character. It would have its proper weight in society,
but it was unfit for discussion in Parliament on a question like
the present. The Noble Marquess had expressed his hope that
no English voice would be found to support the Amendment
of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. His (Mr. S.'s) would be
that voice, for he thought not a shilling of the arrears ought to
be allowed. The real property of his late Majesty ought to have
been brought under the notice of Parliament. If it was 2 or
300,0001. a-year.
Mr. HUSKISSON here spoke across the table. To save the
time of the lion. Member and the- House, he begged to say that
the real property of his late Majesty had been placed under the
controul of the department of Woods and Forests ; that it was
available for public purposes, but that, if sold, it in all proba-
bility would not realize £20,000.
Mr. W; SMITH said the explanation of the Hon. Member
was satisfactory to him, and no doubt to the House. lie
thought the arrears of his Royal Highness's allowance stood
upon distinct grounds, and he therefore should oppose them.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that the misunderstanding as to the
value of his late Majesty's property had gained ground because
the Noble Marquess -had not condescended to acquaint the pub-
lic with the. facts. He (Mr. B.) thought the. House ought not
to be called•on to snake good the arrears, and he should oppose
that part of the vote.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY explained. The
amount of the late
.Kines personal property he had in the last

Session stated to be only 80,0001. and with respect to the real
property, it.. vas not many days since Ministers hall-obtained
the opinion of the Law Officers upon the paper purporting to
be his late Majesty's will.
Mr. TIER. -conceived that, in voting for
Ithe first proposition,' he would do no more than
place the Duke of Clarence in the same situation
in which he would havNeen if he had retkiyech
%this giant freen-;the first.-=‘oleat, ten2ol;-;,111
aiouga, indeed, that the Vnle of Clarence had
been very ill advised when he had resolved, in
the first instance, to refuse it : for he quite
agreed that the Princes of the Blood Royal were
of right entitled to nothing, and they ought to
take whatever. Parliament granted to them.—
. (Hear, hear!)-LWhen the Duke of Clarence did
refuse this. *rant, it was the general opinion that
he would not' fulfil the proposed marriage; but
both his Royal Highness and his Duchess did
go to the full length, of the previous arrange-
ments, under circumstances which were highly
honourable to both the parties, because it was
the first Royal marriage that was concluded
without a view to an increase of income.—(Hear,
hear !)—From that day to this, he confessed he
had constantly expected that the Noble Lord
would have come down to the House with
this proposition ; and he believed that there
was no inconsiderable portion of the public
who did not think that, in agreeing to
that proposition now, they were doing no
more than what justice required.—(Hear.)—lt
should be borne in .mind, that the grant which
was first imposed for his ROyal Highness was
10,0004 ; the lesser sum of GOOO/. was proposed
by the Hon. Member for Surrey ; and he (Mr.
TO agreed to it. Having thus exercised a dis-
cretion on that occasion, he did not see how he
could run away from the vote he then gave.
'Hear, hear.)—He held himself committed to

As to the arrears—a shadow, but only a shadow
of an argument might perhaps be raised with re-
spect to them. He could not but think that
they ought to be given. For himself, he had no
motive but the performance of his duty. It was
a long time since he had been in the habits of ac-
quaintance with that Royal Duke, but he consi-
dered it as well deserving of attention, that his
Royal Highness since his marriage discharged
the duties of a husband in the most meritorious
manner.—(Hear, hear !)—All that in fact was
now asked of the House, was to forget what had
passed, and to agree to the propositions of the
Noble Lord. As to the Duke of Sussex, whose
name had been mentioned, if, on a fit opportu-
nity, an addition to his income was proposed;
there was no man in the House who would vote
for it more willingly than himself.
Mr. FORBES said, he could not support the
motion, unless some provision were made for the
Duke of Cumberland. He thought that upon
occasions of this description it was not proper for
the House to launch into discussions on the
merits or demerits of the individual branches of
the Royal Family. He particularly alluded to
the manner in which the proposition of a vote to
the Duke of Cumberland had been treated. He
also thought that many branches of the Royal
Family were neglected by the house, in a pecu-
niary point of view. The Noble Lord had
stated that the Princess of Clarence was taken
into consideration; he thought, for the same rea-
son, the Princess Victorina, daughter of the
Duchess of Kent, ought to be provided for.
Sir J. YoRKE said that if be were to pledge
himself to vote for the arrears, he would not sup-
port the motion before the House. He bad heard
an old saying,
" He that will not when he may,
" When he will he shall have nay."

His Royal Highness would be sorry-to have tha
maxim applied to his case, but he thought he
might be contented if they refused him the ar-
rears. Ile confessed he was somewhat alarmed
at the fearful catalogue of Royal progeny and
others to be provided for presented by the speech
of the Ho►►. Member who last spoke, and felt
therefore inclined to be the more sparing of the
public money.
Mr. lIARBORD did not think there was any
just reason to refuse the Duke of Clarence that
which had been offered to him three years
lle did not feel inclined to reduce the vote of
6,0001. a-year, but he certainly could not bring
himself to vote the arrears. It was a delicate
question, and therefore the less that was said
about it the better. Ile should, therefore, move
another amendment, that the grant be 6,0001.
only, without the arrears.
Mr. BROGDEN observed, that they must first dispose of
the money grant, and then the Hon. Member might propose
the introduction of any word tending to shape the vote as he
desired.

Lord MILTON declared his intention to vote for the motion
of the , Noble Lord opposite (the Marquess of Londonderry),
but he should also give his support to the amendment about to
be moved by his Honourable Friend behind him. He was sure
another Parliament would not pass away without some propo-
sition being made for the reduction of the salaries. of the public
Officers of State.
Sir R. WILSON said, he could not bring himself to think
that it would be a dignified course in the House to refuse the
arrears now claimed for the Duke of Clarence, because he had
thought proper to refuse the grant when first offered to him. It
appeared to him that it would be like taking his Royal High'-
ness at his word. Ile certainly had lived two years of the sub-
sequent period abroad, but to deduct that from the sum for the
remaining year, to which he was entitled, would, in his opinion,
be splitting trifles unworthy of the House.
Sir P. AKE supported the motion.—(Cries of Question.)
Mr. BROUGHAM said he would not detain the
House for any time. He only wished to make
one or two observations for the purpose of cor-
recting a mistake which had crept into the de-
bate. When he heard it stated that the sum of
2,5001. was formerly voted to the Duke of Cla-
rence,.to make up for the absence of any profes-
sional income, and to put him on a level with the
other Royal brothers, it was but proper to men-
tion that that was a mistake. There was another
brother, who was placed in the same situation.
The Duke of Sussex bad never any command,
or regiment, or any other professional income
whatever. He wished, however, the House
to understand, that he did not make that re-
mark for any other purpose than to do jus-
tice to the Duke of Sussex. He believed that
Royal Duke would be the last person to come
down to the House to make any such claim.
He was certain no such idea had ever entered
into his mind, and equally certain was he that
the Puke of Sussex had large outgoings, which
his other brothers had not. His economy, how-
ever, and retired manner of life, enabled him to.
pay off a gi.eat portion of those demands to which ,

he had subjected himself; and his- management
and prudence, and notions. of justice, did-' the
greatest credit to his heart and feelings. So
much he did think_ it necessary to observe op
that subject.' With respeceto the rrears oflbe
grant to the Duke of Clarence,- thestood on
culiar':grounds, quite distinct ihfront the grailt4 -1,
self. If;inlBlBhheliJoost/ioaNitTroper Vote
him a grant of 6,0001., aEd he then thought proper
to refuse, but came no wNfter three years, and sig-
nified his acceptance of that sum; it was his-(Mr.
Broughani's) opinion that the sum should be taken
now as it was tendered 'then. It was said that
the withholding the arrears would be taking the
Royal Duke on his word ; and the gallant offi-
cer opposite (Sir JOseph Yorke) had recourse,
for an illustration, to an old proverb—
" He that will not when he may,
" When he will he shall have nay."
He (Mr. Brougham) would not enforce the
gorous application of the saying, because that
would operate against the whole grant. All that.
could be fairly expected of the House would be
to put his Royal Highness in the same state its
which he was when he refused his acceptance of
the vote of the House. For these reasons he
would vote for the grant from the present time.
There was one observation more which lie wished
to make before he sat down. The House, he
thought, had reason to complain of the manlier
in which the grant was proposed. There was no
communication from the Crown on this subject,
either during the 'present or former Session, and
the House were left in ignorance, whether the
Crown desired such a grant at all. - The propo-
sal- certainly came through the Minister, .but.
there ought to be a direct communication from
the Crown.
The MarqueSs of LONDONDERRY and. Mr. BRouctrAiu
mutally explained.
Mr. HUME begged to withdraw his amendment, -as• he
found the sense of the House to be against it.
The House then divided on Mr. Ilarbord's amendment:—
For the Amendment - - 43
Against it
- - - IHI
Majority for the original Motion —76
On being re-admitted to the Gallery, we found that-the House
had resumed, and that the-report Was ordered to be received on
Wednesday next.
CRIMINAL LAWS' AMENDMENT BILLS.
On the motion of Sir J. MAcKANTosw, the " Navigable
Rivers Robbery Bill," and the " Dwelling.house Robbery
Bill," were read:a third time and passed, with souse disseutient
voices, but without a division.
DISTURBANCES AT CONSTANTINOPLE.
On Mr. ARBUTHNOT'S motion that the House do resolve
into a Committee of Supply,

Mr. BERNAL said, hewished to ask the Noble Marquis (of
Londonderry) a question, which he hoped the Noble Lord
would answer. He wished to know whether the accounts of
serious disturbances having taken place at Constantinople were
true ; and if so, he wished to be informed whither any, and
what steps had been taken for the protection of British subjects
and property in that city. He had been given to understand
that both had been exposed to great danger in consequence of
the disturbances to which he had alluded.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY replied, that it was
unfortunately true that disturbances, and those of a must pain-
ful nature, had occurred, but that his Majesty's Arnbassador
to the Porte, aided by the Ministers of the other Powers of
Europe, had done all in their power to:protect Europeans from
the dangers to which many of them were exposed. As soon as
the first notice of the events which had occurred there had reach-
ed this country, the Admiralty had taken care to adopt such
measures as would prevent any danger to British shipping, cc
other property in the Archipelago.

COMMITTEE 'OF SUPPLY.
The House then went into the Committee.

GENERAL DESFOURNALTX.
Mr. IRVING, in the Committee, proposed the following re-
solution :—" That it is the pleasure of this Committee that
1:26,006 128. 6d. be granted to his Majesty, to be paid to Gene-
ral Desfornanx, as a compensation for services performed, and
losses incurred, on the capture, and durin■ the occupation, of
the island of Guadaloupe, in the year 1794." The lion. Gent.,
who had been Chairman of a Comniittee to investigate the Ge-
neral's claims, shortly stated the grounds on which they rested.
They had been admitted by Sir A. Cochrane immediately after
the services were rendered, and repmteffly brought forward and
examined since.

A long conversation ensued, in which Mr. W. Smith, Sir J.
Newport, Mr. Warre, Mr. Grenfell, and Sir Joseph Yorke
opposed the grant, or demanded farther explanations concern-
ing it ; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Irving, and
Mr. Wilson, supported it. At last, 'on the suggestion of Mr.
Bankes, the resolution was withdrawn by Mr. Irving, on the
understanding that it would be brought forward on the first day
of a Committee of Supply. -
After one or two other items of the Report were agreed
to, Mr. Arbuthnot moved, that the Chairman should, report
progress. -

The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received on Wednesday next.
Upon the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Coals
Drawbacks Bill being read, Mr.. F. PALMER moved, that the
House be counted ; and there not being forty Members presort.
an adjournment took place to 'Wednesday.