The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

opposed the Measure. A part of his complaint Was, that
the Church of Ireland was Materially affected by this mea-
sure. By this measure the people of Ireland would he as-
signed over to"that Catholic discipline which was so dis.
cordant with the views of Protestants. Something bad
been said of the temporality and spirituality, or spiritual
powers of the Church. In the first place, the Church had
the power of granting every spiritual rite. The rite of
sepulture, divorce, and many other rites, were to be all
left to those Prelates appointed by the See of Route. The
question was, whether the Duke of Norfolk, and another
person or two, should have places in another House and
in this. Suppose the Prelates in this country had any
power equal to that exercised by the Irish Prelates, would
any gentleman submit to their control ?—ln doing so
they were giving up the people of Ireland to this power,
which was held under a foreign auohority. But this was
not all. The House svasstold on a former evening by a
Noble Lord (Lord F. L. Gower) that the power of the Ce-
tholics in Ireland would be controlled by the liberty of the
press. The language in which this was expressed was
most forcible and classical, but the idea was that the liberty
of the press would break down the power of the Prelates
of Ireland. In all productions from the press, however,
there were two component parties—the person who wrote,
and the reader, and though persons might he found to write,
it would not be so easy to find persons to read. The
Noble Lord thought that by Bibles and tracts the dark
and dismal shade of Popish errors would be dissipated.
Let them look at the Pope's opinions, however, as eXPreAS.
ed in hie letter. He was not one of that respectable and
sanctimonious class, who devoted themselves to the circu-
lation of the Bible and other works, for the purpose of in-
structing the human mind ; but he was aware that many
of she Prelates and persons of great rank contributed to
those societies ; it was notorious also that the priests pre-
vented the labours of this class from producing any good
effect ; and the Pope called the contributors in his letter
"strolling players," and men diffusing plague and pestilence.
If the Noble Lord wrote a book or tract, and depended for
its circulation on the people of Ireland, if it in any degree
related to religion, the Priests would be sure to insert it in
the index eapurgatorias, and any person who read it would
be excommunicated. To what a state, then, would the Ca-
tholics of Ireland be exposed, if they were left to the controul
of such a Priesthood. They now exercised a tyranny as
perpetual as the Romish Church, but by this measure
their power would be increased ; and he put it to the
House, whether any Protestant would endure that Pro-
testant Bishops should dictate what polemical books he
should read ? Then, if they would not dare to exercise
such a controul in England, why should the Roman Ca-
tholics be given up to any controul of this kind in Ire-
land ? He begged leave to say that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman at the other side (Mr. Brougham) would do
him the favour to accept a compliment for the very credit-
able manner in which he had conducted his inquiries into
the law. But what would he—the former Rector of a
University in Scotland, and now possessing, he believed,
the power of a Rector in the London University—say to
the rectorial power exercised in Ireland which would pre-
vent the King's subjects from reading the Bible, save in a
language which they did not understand.—(Hear, hear.)—
He knew well the power and the benefits which flowed
from education ; but what would be said if they were to
leave to the Catholic priesthood the power of imposing
upon Protestants this system of Catholic education ? He
had heard it said that this was all idle alarm, but all those
who read the evidence of Dr. Doyle and Dr. M`Hale must
SW that they did not hiok upon the Irish Bishops appointed
by the King in the light of legitimate, and that those only
who were appointed by the See of Rome were to be consi-
dered true and legitimate Bishops. In a passage of one of
his letters, J. K. L. tells Dr. Magee that he has no right
to call himself Archbishop of Dublin ; and all the evidence
before the House of Lords •showed that it was contended
and claimed by the See of Rome, that the Protestant Bishops
of these realms were only looked upon in the light of in-
truders. Would any one wish to see Protestant Bishops ap-
pointed by the King, and Catholic Bishops by the Pope ;
or would any one contend that the Protestant Church
could be in a state of security while there was this denial
of the King's claim ? James the Second attempted some-
thing of the kind ; for, although lie did not go the entire
length of those persons, yet he still allowed the Pope to
divide the country into four districts, the Vicars Apostolic
over which were to all intents and purposes Bishops in
this country. He would ask what was the use of going
into Committee on this question, for the Prelates would
never submit to what they considered intrusion. Allu-
sions had been made by several Gentlemen to what was
done on the Continent, by the King of Prussia, and in
Belgium. But in Silesia and in Belgium both, the King
had a Veto. In France, too, Gentlemen were not aware
that the Government had the same controul over the
Church of Rome as in England. A Nuncio could not
enter without permission, nor without a stipulation rela-
tive to his departure. No rescript of the Pope could enter
without the King's leave ; ecclesiastical judges were ap-
pealed from to judges appointed by the Crown; and it
was high treason to carry an appeal to Rome; and, there-
fore, at least equal protection should he afforded to the Go-
vernment of this country, although to that it appeared the
Irish Prelates would not consent. If what was called un-
qualified emancipation, then, were to be granted, it was
what would not be allowed in any country, Protestant or
Catholic in Europe. Would Gentlemen who were an-
xious for this, prove that what was dangerous to every
country was not dangerous to England and Ireland, and
that Great Britain should be an exception to every other
State ? Some Gentlemen thought that the subject of the
Catholic Question was exhausted, and that as the Treaty
of Limerick was at an end, there was nothing new
to be found. He, however, held in his hand a pamphlet,
written by a very ingenious and Right Hon. Member of
that House. (Cries of " Name, name.") He would hand
the pamphlet to those who had a curiosity on the subject ;
but be went on to say, that the Right lion. and ingenious
Gentleman had found a way to end all danger which might
arise from Catholics being admitted to seats in the Legis-
lature, namely, that when there was any subject which had
for its object the Ecclesiastical affairs, these Members were
to be dumb. They were to play the game of whist, tak-
ing the hand of dummy. ,s-But what in this country was
to be considered ecclesiastical and spiritual, and what was
to be deemed merely civil and temporal, would puzzle even
the acute heads of Dr. Doyle and Dr. M‘Sharee, or what-
ever his name might be. Ile did not know any thing
which would be like these new kind of Members et the
ingenious Member's creation, except what we heard on the
Penryn and East Retford Committees, of half men and
quarter men. He thanked the House for hearing him so
far, although he might have availed himself of the oppor-
tunity to say much more—(Hear, and laughter)—but he
would not adopt the language which he heard used on this
debate for some days past, but which he heard with an in-
dignation to which he was inclined to yield, and which it
was calculated to excite.. They were told that they were
not to treat on terms of equality, but they were to give up
every thing—that they were to yield to superiors, and it
wax even said almost to them, do not attempt to treat,
but—

" Oremus pacem et dextras tendemus iuermes."
They were told not to ask for peace for the Protestants, not
to deal or to negotiate as. with equals, but to yield to their
victors—to surrender, perhaps, even without the honours
of war, the British Constitution and the Bill of Rights.—
(Hear, hear.)—On these grounds, he would not go into
the Committee, for they had ,beady done so on three
Bills, one of which the Catholics would not accept, and
he did not think there was any one absurd enough to sup-
pose that the Protestants of England were to be intimi-
dated to yield up without protection those securities ne-
cessary for the preservation of the Throne, the Church,
and the Constitution.—(Loud cheers from all sides of the
House.)
Mr. Husgissox and Mr. WALLACE then rose, but the
latter having caught the Speaker's eye, he was allowed pre-
cedence.

Mr. 'WALLACE. then observed, that the Learned Attor-
ney-General's last observation be regretted. as nothing had
been said which could induce a belief that any thing like
intimidation was held out, and that it was only the watch-
word of a party, which had better, been omitted. The At-
torney-General bad treated the Treaty of Limerick in a
very summary way, which had not been put forward by
the Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) a 9 the groundwork
of his claim, but merely as auxiliary to the question.—
Neither the Treaty of Limerick, nor the Union, were snore
than collateral aids, but not on either or on both did the
question rest.—(Hear, hear. )—The Attorney-General had,
however, treated the Treaty of Limerick in a very unintel-
it forward, he (the Attorney-General)
threw i
and leaped himself over after it.—
ThegN orbAttorney-General'sbringingoverboard, main topic, however, was securi-
ties, and he had given a kind of assurance that he would have
agreed to them if offered at an earlier. period. Ile was glad
of that concession, for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
much mistook if he thought that the Committee was not a
plate in which to treat of securities to be put forward on
the part of the people of Ireland—and the Hon. Baronet's
application was for a Committee purposely in that way to
secure the peace of Ireland. He himself thought that such
a discussion was the very essence of a Committee, and that
it would there he impossible to avoid settling those terms
upon which, if they accepted them, the Catholics were to
have a share of the Constitution, such as they might have
on acceding to those terms, The Hon. Gentleman went
on to say, that the House, whose dutiy' it was to suggest the