The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-11 00:00:00

money "engagements-'hate'been founded, -.and a'
considerable! portionofithedistressesof the coun-
t-17*M be removed. --(Hear. hear !) - •
The CIIANTELLOW Of the .EXCHEQUER said, he
had been -reproached from year to -year for hav-
ing delayed:the- return to cash payments, and
persevering in: a.-system which- had been repre-
synted injariots: to: the -commercial interests,
and fatal /6 the prosperity of the'country ; and
that night -he was-.called upon to pursue a diffe-
rent course, and principally to accommodate the
„standard of value 'to the tunes :in which engage-
ments had been entered into. Now he should be
very glad. to know from, the advocates of this
course 'what standard. they would propose ? Was
it the•stantlard of 1.797 they preferred ? Surely
then, as -there were' many private debts (for he
would-not now speak of the public debt) con-
tracted before- 1797,. still Unpaid, according to
their o",.vn principles the adoption of that standard
would be a most flagrant act of injustice. There
was no period when engagements were not enter-
ed into, subject to the return of Cash Payments:
•The ultimate return was loudly demanded by
every-,statesman •in the country, although some
difference of opinion-might exist as to the proper
perle'd for so doing• The Act of 1819 is now a
year in-operation, and to recede and retrace our
steps would, in his opinion, be not only childish,
but an act of injustice •to every engagement
that- has been entered into. He saw no other
course to pursue but that which has been pointed
out by Parliament. The Hon. • Member for
Taunton (Mr. Baring) has not proposed tapledge
the Parliament to any measure, but with a consider-
able degree of dexterity he wishes to submit the
whole case to a Committee, and the Hon. Gentle-
man who followed him (Mr. Atwood) wishes to
reduce the standard to the lowest state of depre-
ciation in which it &was during the war. He
thought it was a most ruinous system to
mix ',up silver with the gold currency, and
to make silver a legal tender; but, from
the year 1721-to 1762 or 1763, silver had been
a legal tender to any amount. It was then
limited. to 25 pounds. The Hon. Member for
Taunton (Mr. Baring) stated that the adoption
of silver would effect a relief of 7 per cent. He
would not enter into a mere fractional considera-
tion, but would view it on its general principles ;
and he believed it was universally admitted by
all those who had • ever turned their thoughts
to the question, that a standard of one value
-was infinitely more advantageous in any coun-
try than a mixture of many. It has been stated
all the distresses of the country flow from the
low prices. This he admitted in a great mea-

sure was the case, but ►t was not confined to this

country. Look to America and various other
countries. Therefore it could not be attributed
to the measure of 1819, or any other measures
of this country. There must be some more ex-
tensive cause for this general evil. He thought
that the sudden cessation of war contributed

mainly to produce this effect, and he imagined
there was not as much stress as there should be
laid upon the two great superabundant harvests ;
for, of course, the greater the produce the lower
the prices must be. These, however, only af-
fected collaterally the immediate question before
the House. The question for the House now to
consider was, whether we were again to retrace
our steps, and throw ourselves among the
troubled and. stormy waves of a fluctuating cur-
rency ? If we were now to do so, there would
be no respect paid to our proceedings ; an Act
of 'Parliament would have no authority. This
Act is now two years in operation, all the effects
contemplated have been produced, and should.
we now do it away, the consequence must be to
alienate the confidence of the 'people from :the
proceedings of that House.-7(Hear, hear!)
Mr. GIiENFELL said, that the evident tendency
cf the Amendment was to subvert the Act of the
9th of'the late King,*an Act which had passed.
-with nearly the unanimous consent of Parlia-
ment : but he trusted the question. upon Which
that Act was adopted rested upon a basis not -to
be Sifalcen by any attack; direct or indirect. His
lion. Friend, the Mover of the Amendment, had
on a former occasion spoken of the Act in ques-
lion as being dangerous, from the uncertainty
whictiit created upon the public mind.; and yet
his Hon. Friend proposed a motion to refer. the
'
whole -question to a Conitrii,tee; or, in other
words, to'open the subject again, and thus occa.-
sion-that very fluctuation of opinion which he
himself had so strongly condermied.—(Hear'!):
Mr. MONCE: said, that the cause of our present
distress was to be found in the excessive taxation
to which the people of this country'were subject,
and the false principle of the standard by
10116 we had "arranged our currency'. The
Honourable- Member for Portarlingion (Mr.
Iticardo), in speaking of the subject on a
former occasion, left entirely. out of conSider-
eti,m-the issue of country Bank paper. Since
1819, there was a considerable reduction in it.—
Wlion'there was'a great fall in the price Of *com-
modities, it was evident that such .must be the
effect because articles being cheaper; the same
quantity of paper currency could not lie absorbed.
In'tl;.e year 1818, the dillies on 'stamps for coun-
try, 14:iic-notes; amounted to 165,0001.; • in. 'lBl9,
io 61, 00/. being less, by. upWards of 100,0001. ;
and in TB2O, the diitio amounted onlytdc24,6ool.
The Very reverse of
.what Oceurred" hi the pro-
gross to a paper from a metallic currency, hap-
pened in the return'to mkallic currency. In
the latter case gold and paper went on irnproving
togetfi,,r, mid The question was, liow far 'they
Could go on so'? Thelreat increase' in the Civil
List, in the aiiio!int of all salaries,' in tiftir mili
"expenditure, and, in all branClies-of tile
public service, would require noClesS cir-
culiting ..ftediliin of 40;000,0001: in Place!Of
35,000,000/. the "amount of their 'Metallic Cur.-
rency whert• the Earl of Liverpool wrote on the
subject. The whole'. amount of ' Paper now in
circulation ;ktras about- 50,000,0001. Of.triig the
14arik of England paper 'anioniited t 0.25,000,000/.
the -country 'bank paper 'to 12',000,0001. and
1:,000,0t.nl. for" •frelandl must "be the
efliict or having: all thia'''conVertible 'hito"gold ?
'Witt respeet .to-the Bank of-England he enter-
tamed no doubt of its being fully prepared to
pay in gold ; but Would any person say the same
of the country banks ? He did not hesitate to

assert that they were not altogether possested of
10001. in .gold to meet _the:Whole of their paper.
They were solvent, no doubt; bnt when the de-
mand for gold came upon them they must send their

Excheqdir bills and stock into the market, which
.could'nat fail to prodUce a great depression in the
funds. If 'stock fell to 501. or 601., gold would be
poured in from all parts of Europe to purchase upon
such favourable terms. It should he seriously con-
sidered what the probable demand for gold
would be when cash payments were resumed.
Many whose eyes had been unaccustomed to the
pleasure of seeing a guinea would desire to have
gold from the novelty of the thing. Many too
would demand gold from mere malevolence, froni
a wish to distress .and embarrass the 'country.
There was a 'party, it should be remembered,
who were at war with the House of Commons,
whose principle.of hostility it was not to attack
the Horse Guards, but to sow dissention and dis-
content through the medium of what occurred in
that House. From all these circumstances great
pressure must necessarily arise, from which it
would require all the wisdom of Parliament to
extricate them. One advantage, however, would
folloW. It would be a warning to them never
again to play tricks with the currency of the na-
tion.

. Mr. RICARDO entered into an explanation of
the difference between the measure adopted in
1819 and that which he had then proposed, and
which, he said, would not require the purchase
of a single ounce of gold on the part of the Bank.
Had that measure been adopted, the alteration
in the .value of money, iu consequence of it,
would not have exceeded 4 or 5 per cent. ; and
the argument of the Hon. Member who put the
hypothetical case of France having her currency
changed from metal to paper, was completely in
favour of his (Mr. Ricardo's) opinion ; for all
the complaints which he had heard that night
were not against the difference so much between
the relative values of two mediums of currency,
as against the alteration of the value of money
itself. The Hon. Member next proceeded to
controvert several of the positions of the Hon.
Member for Taunton. That Gentleman, he said,
had spoken of silver as if the measure adopted
for a return to cash payments was a new mea-
sure. The fact was, that up to 1797, both gold
and silver were a legal tender.. At that period
the relative value ceased, and if Government
had not, by an Act of Parliament, closed the
Mint against the large quantities of silver
which were presented there to be coined, silver
would have become the standard of the coun-
try. That very Act of Parliament which passed
for this purpose, he would contend, established
gold as the standard of the country ; therefore
the measure now before the house was not new.
He held it to be merely an assumption that gold
had risen, because the relation of value between
it and silver was altered. He might as justly as-
sert that the silver had fallen. He then adverted
to the evidence of Mr. Baring before the Bank
Cash Payments' Committee, to shew that that
Hon. Member had been of opinion that gold was
a preferable standard to silver. That llon. Mem-
ber, too, had talked of the mischief of re-agi-
tating this question ; yet he (Mr. Baring) did
not scruple to come down to that House with
propositions which would have the very effect of
disturbing men's minds. He then argued, that
labour shared the fate of every other commodity,
and was equally with them affected by the fall
of money. He adverted to the argument arising
from a reference of the variation of the price of
corn to an alteration of the currency. He attri-
buted the late depression of the price of that ar-
ticle to the great increase of the importation
from Ireland and to the good harvest. Be-
sides, a reference to the variation in the price
of corn for the last hundred years, .would
shew that it had no great connection with
the alteration of currency. He contended
that
_variableness was essential to a metallic
standard ; and when it was stated that a de-.

pression of that standard produced a depression
in the value of commodities, it would have been
candid to state also that a depression in the value
of commodities, to a similar extent, took• place in
other countries where the same standard was esta-
blished, so that the necessary consequences of
employing such, a standard• here when they mani-
fested themselves, ought not to be attributed to
the measure now brought under the consideration
of the House.

Mr. H. GURNEY felt himself bound to support
the-proposition-of his Hon. Friend, the Member
,for Taunton, feeling that the distresses under
which the country laboured were to be attribut-
ed to a varying standard.
Mr. 14-7,r.Licr agreed with his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Taunton, in what he had stated to
be the effects of the measure of 1819, for the re-
sumption of Cash Payments; but at the same
time he was in great doubt how he was to deal
with the proposition of that Hon. Gentleman.—
For he had to consider that the bad effects of
the measure had in a great degree been endured,
and that in fairness its benefits should be per-
mitted to take effect. There was one point of
view on which this question had not yet been
treated—at least with as much attention as it
deserved—namely, the 'different situations in
which the monied interest and the landed in-
,terest were placed with respect to the political
interest of the State. He would take the value
of the landed property at about 37 millions, and
that of the funded property at 28,millions. Sup-
posing then that the rent of the landed proprie-
tors was decreased one half, they would have the
prospect of the rents of the landed interest re-
duced to 20 millions, and the income of the
fancied interest swelled-to 40 millions.

The CHANCELLOR of the ExcluetrEa.---" No,
no !" .

Mr. ELLrcE.—lre would take the income of
the funded interest at thirty millions, and that
of the persons with fixed incomes at ten millions.
But with respect. to the silent revolution which
was affecting the political relations of the State,
he would merely advert to the case of the Queen.
—The moment the public irritation was raised to
any formidable extent, the funded interest took
alarm, and turned over to the support of Minis-.
tern, Ile concluded by declaring, that he would

choote the its evil in this case, and submit to
the arrangement of 1319.

Mr. PEARSE considered the agitation of the sub-
ject, after the ample and carefu discussion which
had preceded e zneasftre, as highly injurious, in-
asmuch as- - uded to promote a diffidence in
the public mind in the resolution and persever-
ance of Parliament.

Mr. InvING said, he concurred generally in
the sentiments contained in the very able speech
of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Taunton;
(Mr. Baring) but he could not agree with him
that it was to the augmentation of the metallic
currency we owed the great distress which per-
vaded the country. Hon. Gentlemen might be
led to suppose that he (Mr. Irving) had changed
his opinion on that subject, but he could assure
the House that he had not. He always thought
that they should return to a metallic currency,
and nobody had ever heard from him a contrary
opinion. In the view which he was enabled to
take of the question of the currency, he came to
the conclusion that it was not the plan itself, but
the apprehensions attending it, that caused the
depreciation which was so much felt. With re-
spect to the question immediately before the
House, he would give it his• support ; but he ap-
prehended such a Committee would create strong
expectations and alarm through the country.
The Hon. Member, amidst loud cries of " Ques-
tion," was understood to say, that in ISI7 the
importation of foreign commodities, with the
foreign loans which were made, had narrowed
the circulation of the country, and that, in a
great degree, was the cause of the distress which
prevailed.

Mr. CILIPPS made some pbservations on the sys,
tern pursued by the Bank. Mr. PEARSE ex
plained.

Lord A. HAMILTON said he would support the
motion of his lion. Friend (Mr. Baring). He
was of opinion that, sooner or later, the state of
the currency should be investigated, and there-
fore no time was fitter than the present to insti-
tute an inquiry. His Noble Friend near him
had been taunted as recommending rapine and
spoliation. If blame was to attach to what his
Noble Friend said, he (Lord A. Hamilton) was
willing to take his share of it, though neither he
nor his Noble Friend were advocates for rapine
and spoliation; hut they wished that all should
bear a part of the burden. When the agricul-
tural classes were reduced to imprisonment and
poverty, he would put it to the Right lion. Gen-
tleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whe-
ther it was right to upbraid with recommending
rapine and spoliation those who would advocate

their interests.
After a few observations from Mr. J. SMITH
in support of the original motion, and from Mr.
T. WILSON, Mr. WODEHOUSE, Mr. 11. DAVIS,
and Mr. Ald. HEYGATE against it, the House
divided, when the numbers were—

For the Motion - - - - 141
Against-it - 27
Majority 114
The House then went into a committee on the

Bill.

Mr. BARING made a few observations in answer
to what had fallen fiom several gentlemen in the
course of the evening. lie maintained that prior
to 1797 gold and silver formed a legal tender; and
if they did not choose now to return to the double
standard, they would be perfectly justified in rais-
ing the value of the sovereign to 21s.

The CHANCELLOR of the ilxcitEeuEa expressed
his belief that if the present measure did not re-
store them to a permanent metallic currency, it
was in vain to hope success from any other.
Mr. BARING repeated his former statement,
and observed that they would now have a gold
standard distinct from all the nations in the
world.

Mr. WELLE3LEY POLE entered into a short
statement of the amelioration that took place in
the state of the coiti in 1776, and argued that
gold was then considered as the legal standard of
the country ; and from that time until the year
1816 it had so remained.

After a few words from Mr. BARING and Mr.
W. POLE, the House resumed, and the report was
ordered to be received to-morrow.

IRISH BANK PAYMENTS.

The Order of the Day was then read for the

House resolving itself into a Committee on the Irish
Restriction Act.—After a few words from Mr.
GRENFELL, Mr. Humr, and the CHANCELLOR Of
the EXCHEQUER,
Mr. GRENFELL inquired of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, if any negotiation had been en-

tered into for the renewal of the Charter of the
Bank of Ireland ?

The reply of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER was not heard hi the Gallery.
Sir H. PARNELL thought, from the manner in
which the Right Hon. Gentleman evaded the
question, that there was some foundation for the
rumour, that a negociation had taken place. He
thought that all the miseries which the country

had endured since 1774, had arisen from the
departure from the principles formerly acted
upon. So strongly was he impressed with that
idea, that he would willingly afford his assistance
to any Member who should move that the Char-
ter should not be renewed.
Mr. BENNET observed, that the answer which
had been made to the objection of the Hon. Me-
mber for Aberdeen, was unsatisfactory. Ile should,
however, have another opportunity of adverting
to the subject, and he would now content him-
self with protesting against the negociation which
he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman had en-
tered into with the Bank of Ireland.

Mr. PEA RSE said, that the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury was welcome to entertain whatever
opinions he pleased, but would any other person
believe that the Bank would not do all in its
power to prevent forgeries ? The fact was, that
the Bank had done, and would do, every thing
in its power; though complete success had not
yet attended the efforts which had been made,
yet he did not despair of seeing a note fabricated,
the forgery of which would be impossible.

Mr. F. LEWIS did not view with so much
alarm the prospect of a negociation with the
Bank of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman pro-
ceeded to draw a contrast between the Banks of
Scotland and Ireland : let the House look at the
former; there the number of partners might be

increased tO an unlimited extent, and on that
circumstance rested its security. Why could not
the principle of that system be applied to and
contribute to the security of the Bank of Ire-
land ? But Ireland ought to have a security of
another_kind. As soon as the circulations of gold
was introduced, no one pound notes ought to be
allowed to circulate in Ireland : though paper
was economical, yet gold was most secure. He
hailed therefore with gladness that line of con-
duct in the Right Hon. Gentleman, which led
him to hope a good result. He believed that
the course the Right Hon. Gentleman pursued
was the best, the most just, and most high-
minded course.
Mr. GRENFELL observed, that the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Lewis) had mistaken the question
which he put to • the Right llon. Gentleman.
His question had not gone to any modification in
the Charter, but to whether any negociation had
been entered into for its renewal ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
(as was understood), that no negociation_ of the
kind had taken place.

The House then resolved itself into a
,Com-
mittee, and, after some observations from Mr.
GRENFELL, Mr. PEARSE, and the CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER, the different clauses of the
Bill were agreed to, and the Report ordered to
be brought up to-morrow.
Mr. HonuousE inquired whether it was true
that a man named England, convicted at the
Horsham Assizes of the murder of one Swaine,
had received a free pardon.
Mr. CLIvE said he could not answer the ques-
tion of the lion. Member.

The other Orders of the Day were then reaa,
and the House adjourned at HALF-PAST TWELVE
O'CLOCK.