The Sun.
London, England, 1828-04-01 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 1, 1828.

tation, I would beg your Lordships to look to Ireland, and
see the consequences of the want of encouragement to agri-
culturists there.-(Hear.)-That country supplies Eng-
land with about two millions of quarters of grain of differ-
ent descriptions, of which, iu the course of last year, the
supply of wheat was nos less than four hundred thousand
quarters. My Lords, I beg your Lordships to look to
that which I might almost say is the only-at least one of
the two only-manufactures of Ireland. If you were to
reduce the duty to this low degree, it would be to deprive
you of that plenty hitherto enjoyed. I have stated that the
gentlemen of this country have by the expense of their ca-
pital and the labour employed, raised the agricultural state
to that high condition in which it stands-(Hear, hear)-
and nothing would he more unjust than to take from them
the protection which enabled them to bring the country to
estate so desirable, and deprive them of those rents which are
their due from the capital they have laid out.-(Hear.)-
My Lords, I say the merchants, the manufacturers, the
poor, and the whole public, are interested in the
maintenance of this independent condition of the
country. The nobility- the gentry - nay, I say
the Government itself-are interested in supporting it from
the advantages derived from its condition. I say, then,
that even if I could believe that I could make grain cheaper
by withdrawing from it the protection it now receives,
I would not do it at such an expense to the interests of
the country at large. The other system differs from
this in being the contrary extreme-it is one of entire
prohibition, which I must say is greatly to be com-
plained of, and scarcely less objectionable than that to which I
have adverted. The truth, my Lords, is, it cannot be
carried strictly into execution without exposing the country
to the greatest inconveniences, first from want, next
from a superabundance of grain in the country, at
a time when we might want to be relieved from
it, and next by a depression of prices, both as affect-
ing the corn of this country, and that brought from abroad.
Those evils could be relieved only by the illegal interference
of the Government, or by Ministers coining down to Par-
liainent to induce Parliament to consent to the suspension
of the law. There was not a doubt that the system of
prohibition had produced all the evils to which he had al-
luded, at some period or other during the time in which
that system had operated. He understood that a Noble
Lord had stated that there were resources in the act of the
year 1622, which:allowed the diminishing of prices fur
paying duties ; but the country could no more bear the
price of 70e., as a prohibition, than that of 80s. ; and
the Noble Lord. greatly deceived himself if he supposed
that a duty of 175., for three months, and of 12s. ever
after, could be borne, when the price of wheat rose to
70s. Under those circumstances, we were driven
from the consideration of a prohibition, and a
fixed duty, unless a small one had all the objections
of a prohibition. The Government had, therefore,
gone to the consideration of a measure adopted on the
principle of the Bill introduced to their Lordships House
last year,-that of the duty rising as prices fell, and falling
as prices rose, allowing thereby, in proportion as the price
of corn in this country was best calculated to bear it,
tbreign corn to come in by degrees, under certain duties.
He wished their Lordships to recollect, that after the Bill
came under their consideration last year, and was abandoned
by the Noble Lord who had introduced it, an Act was
passed to enable the holders of Corn which had been
bonded previous to the Ist of July, 1827, to introduce
that Cern into the home-market for consumption, after
the passing .pf the Act, upon payment of the duty pro-
posed by the Bill which had been allowed to drop.
From the papers which it was his intention to move
for, he would show their Lordships the result of the
operation of that Act. When the Bill was brought under
their Lordships' consideration he had supported it, and he
recollected stating his opinion that that would be an expe-
riment of the measure which had been discussed dur-
ing the session. He admitted, however, that the experi-
ment had not been a perfectly fair one. The truth was,
that by one of the clauses of that Act, those who had corn
in bond were obliged to take it out between the periods of
the months of July and May. They were therefore in-
duced to take out more than they otherwise would have
been disposed to do, had they been left entirely to their
own discretion. He entreated their Lordships to bear this
fact in remembrance. The corn in bond on the let of
July, 1827, amounted to 633,905 quarters; 531,575
quarters had been taken out of bond, and 119,431 quarters
were the amount in bond on the sth of February last.-
Under these circumstances, the Act had proved ineffectual,
because it had brought the corn out of bond when lie be-
lieved the price in this country was not such as to render
the introduction of corn necessary. He therefore asserted
that the measure had in that respect been ineffectual ; and
it had also been ineffectual in another point. Of that corn
which had thus come out of bond, 380,000 quarters were
taken out at a duty corresponding to the price of 50e.
under the old Bill, and 95,000 quarters came out when
the price was at a rate lower than that at which it was
intended so large a quantity should be admissible. At the
same time he begged of their Lordships to recollect, that
the corn had been forced out of bond by the clause to which
he had alluded, which obliged the holders of corn to take it
out previously to the let of May, and he also begged of
them to recollect that the Act had been ineffectual in this
respect,inasmuch as there still was retained in bond 119,000
quarters, being about one-fifth of the whole quantity. In
the measure which it was now the intention of govern-
ment to propose to Parliament, the duty, when corn was at
50s. the quarter, would be 348. ; and from 345. it would
go on decreasing Is., according as the price of corn in-
creased Is. until corn rose to 641. At that price the duty
would be 20.. ; at 655. per quarter, 18e. ; at 665. per
quarter,l6s.; and at 565. per quarter, the duty would be the
same tinder this Bill as under the last. The difference of the
duties under the present system, compared with the Bill
of last year, would be this :-With corn at 50s. the
quarter, the duty would be 345., being a decrease of 6s. ;
at 555. there would be a decrease of Is. of duty. He had
already said that at 565. the duty was the same as under
the last Bill. At 575. there would be an increase of Is. ;
at 58s. there was an increase of 2s. ; at 60s. there would
be an increase of 4s. ; at 61s. an increase of ss. ; at 625.
an increase of 6s. ; at 635. an increase of 7s. ; and at 645.
au increase of Ss. ; at 655. and 665. also, an increase of
Ss. ; at 675. an increase of '73. ; and at 68.. an increase
of 6e. With respect to oats and barley, it was proposed
that they should remain in the state in which they were
placed by the law last passed. There remained now only
another point to which he wished to draw their Lordships'
attention. Their Lordships would remember that in the
discussion of the Bill of last year he had moved an amend-
ment, the object of which was to prevent frauds in
the system of averages from being carried into execution
by means of the warehousing system. Since last year
a great deal has been done to remedy those frauds. In the
first place, the Irish and Scotch corn in the market had
been included in the averages; and returns fiom a great
number of places, not before included, were added. The
difficulty of fraud would be increased in proportion to the
quantity on which the average was struck. Besides this
the additional duty laid on the article itself would render
the gain by any fraud, lions the price varying between ls.
and 2s. only, so email, that it would scarcely be worthy
any person's while to attempt the imposition. Their
Lordships would recollect that in discussing this question
last year, he had stated that it was his wish to introduce
some regulations which might put an end to all such
frauds. He was, however, aware that it was difficult
to frame regulations strictly applicable to the trade in
corn. The objection of them was founded on the injury
which the trade might experience from any regulations.
Under these circumstances, and considering the duty
now proposed to be such as would be admitted by every
one as sufficient to give a full and fair protection to the
agriculture of this country, he trusted their Lordships
would be satisfied without any interference with the bond.
ing system.-(Hear, hear.)-Having now mentioned every
thing lie wished to state, he earnestly entreated their Lord-
ships to consider what he had just proposed before they
entered into any discussion. He had now only to move
for an account of the average price of wheat from the Ist
of July last to the latest period, and also fur a return of the
quantity of foreign wheat entered for home consumption
during the same period, and the rate of duty paid thereon.
[The Noble Duke often spoke low, which, added to the
great pressure and confusion at the bar, rendered it impos-
sible always to collect accurately what he said.]
Lord FALMOUTH said, that he had expected that
the statement of tke Noble Duke would have been so
clear and satisfactory as not to call for any remarks or ob-
servations from him. Ne certainly regretted much that

this expectation, which was raised by the opening obser-
vations of the Noble Duke, had been entirely disappointed
by the character of the measure which it now appeared
that he intended to introduce. Although be entertained

the highest possible respect for every thing emanating
from the Noble Duke, yet he could nut refrain from expres-
sing his disappointment at the inadequate protection about to
be made to that most important class, the agricultural inte-

rest of this country. Without entering into a consideration
at the present stage, of all the details of what fell from hie
Noble Friend, at the head of his Majesty's Government, he
was still anxious to submit a few general observations
on the subject, because if he, humble as he was, could
suggest anything to their Lordships, likely to influence
them in their ultimate determination, he thought that
the present would undoubtedly be the best opportunity.
He, however, begged to remind their Lordships that
circumstances had most materially changed since the Bill
similar to the one now proposed was discussed is the last
Session.—(llear, hear.)—Yes, circumstances had cer-
tainly changed, and changed too, as he contended,
most favourably for the view taken by the advo-
cates of the landed interest. It now turned out that the
arguments urged last year against the agriculturists were
futile and certainly unfounded. No high price had taken
place, and it did not appear that any of those alarming
circumstances had occurred. After some further observe-
:ions, which the great noise below the bar prevented us
from hearing distinctly, the Noble Lord expressed his
ialanviction that the proposed scale of protecting duties
4'svould .brow down the average prices of wheat so
extremely low, that after the lapse of a short period it
would not be generally cultivated in this country. Indeed,
after all the expectations which had been raised in the
minds of the agriculturists, it appeared that they had only
a; boon of 4s. beyond the protection which would have
been afforded to them by the Bill of last Session. Be-
fore their Lordships sanctioned such a measure, he beg-
ged to remind them of the state of the country.—
Much had been said of the state of the currency with
reference Ih its influence on our general welfare—for his
own part, he must confess, that when he read pamphlets
on that subject, he was more confused by them, and
}:new infinitely less of the question than lie did before.
There was, however, one broad fact, which must occur to
every individual, however limited his capacity ; namely,
that without agricultural prosperity there could be no
general prosperity in the country.—(Hear, hear.)—This
was a fact which all his experience proved—it was a truth
with which every trader was impressed ; for all now felt
that the farmer was their best customer.—(Hear, hear.)—
Even the manufacturers were beginning to know it.—
There was one point to which he wished to call their
Lordships' attention, and that was the state of the unem-
ployed poor. Much had been said about superabundance
of population, and of the increase of crime, particularly of
the crime of poachiug,—on which subject a Noble Marquis
had a Bill before their Lordships. There might be a coin-
plication of causes, which tended to increase the evil, but
the main and principal cause was, because the farmer could
not at the present prices, or at the prices proposed by the
Noble Duke, employ the superabundant population.—
(Hear.) Those prices were calculated on the nice economy
of Parliament,—prices at which the farmer could just put
his wheat into the ground in those parts of the country not
peculiarly favourable on account of the soil or other cir-
cumstances. The farmer was called upon to exert himself
against the evil of superabundant population, at the same
time that the sources from which his industry and exertions
were to spring were dried up. He must again say, that
the great evil with which the country had to contend was
a superabundant population ; and he thought that, placed
as they were, it would be better to wait a year or two
under the operation of the existing corn laws, than adopt
any crude or incomplete measure.
The Earl of MALAIESBURY wished fur general con-
venience to have the scale of duties read, as they had not
been distinctly heard by their Lordships.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, that for the gene-
ral convenience of the House, it would be better to have
the scale printed, and then they could come to the discus-
sion on a future day, better prepared for concluding the
business.

The clerk then read the resolutions.
ion! KING said, that he could not allow this opportu-
nity to pass, without expressing an opinion upon the pro-
position which had been just addressed to their Lordships.
He had heard it whispered abroad a day or two ago,—and
indeed it was a rumour he was at the time uawilling to
believe,—that the pivot price would be raised 2s. ; but
now out came the reality, that the addition, instead of
being 2s. was actually 4s. ; and at certain points and turns
of the market, it was to make no less a difference than be.
between the scale of prices in the new Bill and that of last
year. To such a system of legislation he might content
himself to reply in a single observation, couched in
three or four well-known words, and these were—
" this is too had."---(A laugh.)—lf in fair weather
they were to attempt to maintain these prices, when
the seasons went beyond the average, what were the people
to expect when a reverse took place? He begged, on this
tirst movement of the Government upon the Corn Laws, to
assure the Noble Duke, that if he meant this to be a per-
nwnent Bill, he was never more mistaken in his life, than
time would show him to be in endeavouring to effect such
an arrangement as this. Last year's Bill was had enough
for tile country; but this was " too bad" indeed. It was
intolerable to expect that such a plan to increase the mar-
ket price could be maintained,—it was quite chimerical.
The Noble Duke had said, let them look to Ireland. Cer-
tainly, well they might, for Ireland alone had the merit,
and a most beneficial operation it was, to prevent the con-
summation of the original design of these Corn Bill framers
—namely, their keeping up of the prices ofBos. To Ireland
this country was indebted for the prices being lowered to
50s. or 60s. Those who concocted the Bill in 1615, and
their 80s. price, did not contemplate the effect which the
importations from Ireland would produce upon their market.
It was, then, Ireland that enabled the British population to
live and subsist, in spite of these 80s. speculators. Bad as
last year's Bill was, and worse as the present looked, still
it seemed there were, individuals who were yet unsatisfied
with what they called adequate protection. He wished
such people joy of their feelings, and certainly a more un-
reasonable class of expectants were never left to brood over
their chagrin. Hs was sorry that lie neither could agree
in the principle of the Noble Duke's raolutions, nor in any
part of the general doctrine which he propounded in in-
troducing them. He had, indeed, fairly told them, that his
'object was to keep up the price; that if a great price was
not paid for land, they could not collect high rents ; but
thee experiment could not succeed—no country could or
would tolerate it. Surely agriculturists should remember
that their true object in laying out money in the cultivation
of land was to produce corn, and yet Bills of this kind
would eventually tend to prevent their having the article
:ailich they professed to want ; it was always in the nature
of such over-doing to re-act against the perpetrators of it.
Lord GODERICH said, that though this was not the
tune to discuss the proposed Bill, yet lie wished to say a
few words, were it only to express his anxious desire that
this question should be brought, if possible, to a satisfactory
termination in the.course of the present session. It was
time that the country should know how it was really to
stand respecting these laws.—(Hear)—and upon that point
lie differed from his Noble Friend (Lord Fahnoutli);
lie could not imagine a greater evil than the continuance
of the present incomplete plan for two or three years lon-
ger. lie assured his Noble Friend, who had introduced
the present resolutions, that he felt the greatest anxiety to
look with a favourable eye upon any approximation to a
fair settlement of this question. If his Noble Friend had,
however, through any views of policy or consistency,
introduced his clause of last year, lie (Lord G.) should have
been ()tinged to object to at least that part of his proposi-
tion. But as his Noble Friend did not intend to propose that
clause, the question was reduced to a matter of degree, upon
which he hoped they would come to a fair understanding.
As far as lie was himself concerned, he was prepared to
sacrifice much of his own individual opinions, to meet a
general conciliatory arrangement. lie would not pretend
to say that there were not details in the proposition before
their Lordships, which went beyond his view of what was
necessary; but as far as regarded the addition of the 45., he
was not averse from conceding it. He would repeat, that
for God's sake let the question he now settled, and lie hoped
that in the consideration of this formidable subject (for
formidable it really was) they would exclude from their mind
all individual and party feelings, for the better attainment of
a satisfactory conclusion to the business.—(Hear.)
The Earl of FALMOUTH said, in explanation, that 1
when he alluded to waiting for another year or two, it was
solely in preference to the continuance of an unsettled system.
Lord lIEDESDALE hoped that at all events they
would not make such a law as welsh' lessen the agricul-
tural produce of this country; for by so doing they would
entail misery on the large population employed in the cul-
tivation of land, and on that depending upon it also for
support. Let them look at the effect of foreign imports-

PRICE 7D.

tion upon the borne grower. Why, when only 1,000,000
quarters of foreign corn had got into the market, its effect
was to reduce the general price of their own produce 2s.
a quarter, and to subtract no less an amount than
7,000,000/. sterling from the agricultural interest, and of
course to that amount to depreciate agricultural Labour.
The result of such an afflictaig distress would be far
beyond the scope of human calculation ; it would be the
total ruin of the great agricultural population of this
country. When they looked at the amount of that class
of their population, they must always bear in mind the
other classes that depended upon them for support--
a population which was infinitely greater, and far more
important, than all the manufacturing classes put toge-
ther. There was another reason why they should ap-
proach this subject with the greatest caution. Were they
sure, that in trying to reduce the price of corn in the man-
ner proposed, that they would be in a condition to meet
the recurrence of two or three bad seasons ? They ought
to be sensible that the only way of having cheap corn in
this country, was to encourage the cultivation and produc-
tion of it : and he must tell them that in the encourage-
ment of agriculture, they had other articles to look at as
well as corn : they had, for instance, their wool, which
was placed at present in a roost absurd position. They
were, in fact, exporting a quantity of foreign vm),
while heaps of their own, equally good, lay wasting
is their warehouses. The effect of such a system would
undoubtedly be to reduce the number of sheep, and
consequently to raise the price of meat. It was
likewise a duty on manure, and in that light affecting
the growth of corn in its baneful result. When peo-
ple talked of trade and its importance, and affected to
sink agriculture, they ought to be told of their great
and fatal mistake. For great countries had lived,
and still lived, without this trade which they so
highly lauded—Flanders, for instance, and China. Re-
verting to the corn question, he cautioned their Lordships
to take care, that in estimating the price for a good year,
they were not entailing ruin upon the farmer in the event
of a bad one. Indeed, by the original system of the corn
laws, the foreign importation was never contemplated,
unless to avert the danger of famine; and what bad been
the result of that system? Why, naturally to improve
agriculture. The only way of having cheap corn was, be
repeated, to raise the condition of agriculture. It was
essential to the interest of the farmer that the duty should
not be rapidly diminished, for then he would be compelled
to have only one price in the good and bad year. At all
events, preparatory to legislation on this subject, he thought
they ought to inquire what was the amount of their popu-
lation dependent upon agriculture, for he was persuaded
that the manufacturing interests would be only a flea-bite
in comparison with them.
The resolutions were then laid on the table.
HOUSE DUTY..

The Earl of DARNLEY presented a petition, signed by
1,00 inhabitant householders of the parish of St. Leonard,
Shorediteb, against the surcharge of the duty upon inha-
bited houses. The petitioners spoke in the strongest terms
against this heavy and unfair tax.
Several Members of the House of Commons then
brought in some public and private Bills.