The Sun.
London, England, 1817-03-12 00:00:00

SINECURES AND USELESS OFFICES.

The Order of the Day, upon which their Lord.
ships- were sommoned;being read,
Earl GROSVRNOR rose to bring forward hie
noticed motion on th:s subject.. His Lordship
prefaced it with a speeeh of sonic length. 'What
he was about to propose, the Roble Earl ohserv...
eel, was at all times' of iinnortance bat in 'a
periodtof unexampled difficulty and distiess like
the present, more peenliarly so. Uis proposition
proceeding upon general principle's, it ivas unne-
cessary for him to occupy their Lordships' time
with any detailed exposition. He wished the.
House to come to a general decision 111)011 the
quest!on of the existence of Sineonre Places and
Useless Office's ; and as to a general' opinion
upon the point, he thought there could not be one
dissentient voice. He thought the people, in this
pertint of distress, had generally shewn great pa-
tience and loyalty ; they avowed their sentiments
openly, but those who took that for disalfeetion
greatly mistook the character of English:llCM. Un-
der the present, circumstances, he (tonight it be4t
to submit some general resolutions, upon which
he should call foi: a decided ripinion. As to the
nature and extent of a salutary, Parliamentary
Reform, -Ode may fairly be some difference of
sentiment, but as to the existence of Sinecure
Places, there could be none. lie was not for
blinking or postponing the consideration.of me-
naced danger, but would meet it boldly and de-
cidedly, so that " out of the nettle danger they
may: pluck the flower safely." He Wont(' not
tamper with the diseases of the Constitution, or
cover it corratslts4ta ; he would ri:ther amptlNt!••
a gangrened limb. in this view, nothing: could
be more effectual than the lopping Off those eor.
rupt excrescences, Sinecure and Useless Offices,
and he Would press their Lordships to declare at
once, that they ought to be aboNflied. Ilia ef6,sra
were directed not individually against the Office.
holders, but against the Offices themielveS. I The
questiou, he thought, was very different from a re-
tention of the means of liberally or generously
rewarding great public national services. It cer-
tainly may be the intention of his Majesty's Go-
vernment to abolish-a number of those obnoxious
Offices. on the death of the present holders ; but
that should not he .a reason against their sLord.
shipa giving a distinct and specific pledge upon
the subject. Ile urged the topics of Economical
and Parliamentary Reform to the serlions consi-
deration -of the Legislature, particularly the for-
mer, as the surest means of-preserving the
tution; observing, thst all 'nations should take
warning from the direfttl-events of the French Re-
volution, which was attributable to the overgrown
corruption of the Government,. and t.te.general
dissoluteness of manners among the people, front
the prince to the peasant, and exhibited a dread-
ful lesson to all, surrounding nations. After se-
veral farther-observations, in which lie argued
for the wisdom and-policy of adopting his propo-
sition, and a few calculations, intended to spew
that the ssviivs hitherto proposed by Ministers,.
fell very short 1.4 affording any real relief front
the public bnrthens, the Noble Earl concluded by
moving certain resolutions, importing that all si-
necure places and useless offices, on theqiennisti
of the present holders thereof, should be abolish-
ed ; and that the adoption of such a detettninatloo
was the, more jest and necessary, on ace non of
the present distressed and impoverished state of
the country,
On the question-

The earl of LIVERPOOL rose, nod in' a forcible,
eloquent, Hod arginnentative speech, .successfully
answered the leading points 41 the Noble Gill's
speech. lie denied, in the first itissance, tita,
imputation hint been east by his Majesty's
remittent upon the general loyalty of the peopl4
of England ; if so, he would be OA to know -who
the Noble Marl cousiacred the people
Was it the meetings at Spa-fields, or any other'
assemblages of that description ? 6o far from
casting an imputation on the people, his Majes-
ty's Government and Parliatnent 144 d 'been em-
ployed in ,exteaing a necessary legal prnteetion
to the people against the attempts and machinu.
tions of those wit° would lead them to runt and
destrtiction.--(l,lear, hear !);.---On the coorary,
so far from feeling dissati§factino and dismay-la
the measures of Government, the improving state
of things, atui the. rapidly rising state of public
credit, showed their approving satisfaction at the
,measure so adopted.--(Hear, hear !)--Such were
the evident consequences of those precautionary
measures that had been adopted. Public confi-
dence was restored, and the people felt secure'
irous dame., a situation .ditierent twin what they

were in for mime time before the adoption of thele
salutary measures, Of these, the temperary sits-
pension, directed as it was, of the Habeas Corpus
Act, must be considered one. He mist feel some-
what of surprise at the Noble Earl's present de-
tennined opposition, for which, on former occa-
sions, he had voted six or seven times. With re-
spect to the question immediately before the
flouse, Ice ObjeCted to the ado tine of the Reso-
lutions, on various grounds. It was known shut
a Committee had been appointed in another place
to inquire into nil the branches of the ,public ex-
penditure, which should be an additional objec-
tion to their voting against a proposition on the
. very subject which, of all others, that [louse was
precluded 'front following ep by any practical step,
or from legislating at all in the 'first instance.-=—
The resolutions expressly pledged the House to
declare that all sinecures should be abolished. He
would ask the Noble Earl what was a sinecure ?
A Bill was not a long time since sent up to that
Hoese, designating a numertsee list of offices as
SiheCureS—but without specifying their attributes.
It appeared to be a word without any definite
tre.ming attached to it ; but he ventured to b:ly, in
.all that long list, there were nut more than four or
offices to which the term sinecure could possi-
bly nuply. Some of the Exchequer Offices wsre ent-
re, 4 dfy deemed such,'hut to all those, more or
less iteportant duties were etteched died great pecu-
niary responsibility required from the holders. The
mode of tilling these offices msy be a newer of
argument, but their duties must be executed
solve way or other. In fact, with reg trd to such
offices, Sinecure" was a mere .nianame, and it
was under a nickname their Lordships were now
called upon to abolish something generally. When
the period should arrive, he misted the House
would not legislate upon such grounds, but upon
their own deliberate and disclimiriating view of
the cases before them. lie dented also the posi-
lion, that the influence of the Clown in Patlia-
men? 11441 con,iderably iitereased. On inquiry, it
would be found that die coutrary was the
(Hear, hear.)—He vindicated the conduct of hiS
INlejetny's Gun' nment on the question of economy
' and retrenchment. Every thing that way %Vas in
a train of accomplishment, as far as was eons
sistent with the Public Service. In illustration
of this point, the Noble Minister entered into
borne detailed expositions, Ile contended for the
positive necessity of retaining the third Secretary
of State for the transaction of the colonial busi-
ness, which 'was so increased as to render the
office indispensible. The establishment of the
Home Department was so fully employed, that no
man had physical or' moral strength to fulfil the
duties much longer in the way hiS Noble Friend
was obliged to perform them' for'the last two or
three months On these important poittts, there
could be no days: ice of opinion among thoie
who were,duly hifortned as to the nature of these
businesses, with reference to the state of the
country, or the increased wealth, population, or
extent of the Bri!ish Empire. The adoption -of
the proposed resoCttions could possibly lead to no.
good practical result : 'on the contrary, it would
lead to difficulty and embarrasSmelos ; and on
these grounds, he would (Wove the previous Tres=
tion upon them,.
Lord Sr. Join; argued briefly in favour of the
restrictions. Ile could not agree with the Noble
Bail who spoke last, that the Suspension ef the
Habeas Corpus Act, and the accompanying Bills,
brought forward as they were, could be called
" precautionary measures." With respect to th'e
offices in question, though, literally speaking,
they perhaps could not be caned Sinecures,.!
yet those who filled them were in fact Sineeerists,
Inasmuch as their deputies performed all theisluties

The Edit of LAODEUDALE Spoke at solve length
on the occasion. He Said, be felt inclined to re-

probate the Resolutions proposed by his Noble
Friend, though he could not but agree with him
as to notch of what he said respecting the causes
of the alarming and distressed ,sit nation of the
country. fie descanted upon the %tistressed state
of the landed tenantry. lie wi(lely differed from
the Noble hall at the head ut the Tioasury as to
attributinwahe present meliorated state of put►lie
credit to the measures lkely adopted by Ministers.
NVith respect to the influence of the Crown in
Parliament, he argned, that instead of increasing,'
it had considerably diminished ; 'and went into a

variety of comparative calculations to evince this
position... The rrominent one of these W 43 the
statemeta that •in 1739, towards the close of Sir
Robert Walpole's Administration, the Porliament-
ury Offices in the Cominims 11.1,;,, were 192 ;
whereas in I BQ7 they were unly,.(io in number...—
But out of Parliament, lie contended, the influence
of the Crown had very considerably. increased.—
Ile could not consistently vote for. a. motion for
the previous question, on a proposition which
sh'ould have been met by it decided negative.
The Earl of DARNLEY shortly argued in favour
of the motion. The particular mode proposed by
his Noble Friend may be open to some objection,
but •in the present generally distressed state of the
•

. •
couivry, he WI it bis duty to vote for the Reso-
lutions proposed.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL spoke briefly in expla.
nation, and seemqd willing, if it were the sense
of their Lordships, not to press his original mo-
tion for the previous question., but to-Atteet the
propositions' by a direct negative, as the Noble
Erirl who 'spoke last but one thought the more ad-
visable. , •

Lord Hot.t.ANtn spoke at sotue length in
,support
of the ResolutiOns, and argned against several of
the leading points of the Noble ',Lad at the head
of the Treasury. He insisted upon the. necessity
of a strict and rigid system of economy in every
bra. nth of the public expenditure, and
.said, the
fact of a Committee of Inquiry,: being appointed
by the other Howe of Parliament was flu reason

for their Loidships not adopting the Resolutions
now proposed by Noble Friend.
' 'rile question- being Called for, the House di-
videci, when there uppeated—
Contents (for the Iteseltition*)
Not contents (fur the ptcciotts tintltion) 45
hiojurity
Adjourned till to-tuoyrow.

• • ---40

lIOUSB OF COMMONS.

General Timezn-o:v postponed. his motion re-
spectinz the deUlleatinn is the `A-stessed Taxes,

,
'owing to the absence 'nf rrp.niti abtba:l,
from to7itiori*.,- to Wefhteitlay the
Mr. Dickti•lNSON e notice, that ;on Titutday
he would Wove for leave 10 bring in ti:Bill•to
able the Magistrates at tile Qrtartvr Sessions to
regulate the fees of the Clerks of the
On the motion' of Air. BF.NNRTT, the name of
Air. MAppocxs was added to the ColtiMitte on
the State of the Police of the Metropolis.
Mr. JOHNSON, from the °dice of the Chief .5.:e--
cretary for It eland, presented a return of:111e munt.
ber of taxable articles of Which 'notice Of discon'..
thmance had been served on the Commissioners'
Of Luise Ireland.—Ordered to be laid au the
table, Mr. LustuNoToN brought tip an account
of the convictions under the /Lottery Acts within
the last fourteen months.-prdered to be printed.
The Indemnity . was repotted, and ordered
to be read a third time to-morrow.
A Petition was presented from the Governors
of the York Lunatic Asylum, praying to be ex-
empted from the operation of the Bill now in the
flouse, for the Regulation of 'Madhouses.
The • SPEAKUR said, th,e course proper to be
pursued in such a case was to petition for leave to
bring in a private Bill, or to shew reason for
making exemptions in their favour in the Bill now
in the Ilouse.--The Petitiow was withdrawn.
REFORM IN PARLIANIENT.

Sir W. Genuv presented a Petition from the
Comity of. Kent, praying for Itetrenclunent and
Reform. -
Sir E. ligniCillttiLL objected to the Petition
being received as that of the County of Kent, lle
admiited it to have been signed by the High
Sheriff) tool believed it to be-really the Petition of
the Freeholders who had attended the meeting tt
which it was voted,. and he did not Oppose its
being received as the Petition of these individuals ;
hut be could not consent to its being kid on the
table as the Petition of the County.
The SPeAKeR said, Petition 3 from all corporate
bodies must have the corporation seal affixed to
them, or they could only be regarded as the peti-
tions of individuals.
Sir W. Gently stated the petition to have been
voted at a full and fair county meeting, and he
Considered it to express the sense of the comity
on the topics it embraced.
Mr. CALE:RAPT spoke in favour of the petition,.
and criticised the opposition given to it by 'the.,
Hon. Baronet.,
Sir E. KNATCIIBUI.L denied that be had opposed
the petition,'and called upon the Hon: Goalearim
to recant the assertion that he had made.. lie'
neither assented to nor dissented from it, but he
objected to the petition of certain individuals be-
ing received as that of the county of K. nt.
Mr. CALcitAtrr tins, glad to find the lion. lb-
ronet was ventral on this OCC4BIOII, and hoped
from this circumstance he might,.ar some future
period, come over to the friends of Reform,
TbeSreAtteit said, the
_House must, from this ,
,eoilversation, feel the importance of adioning to
the established rule of considering the petitions
presented to them to be those of the individuals
by whom they 'wefe signed. If this were not
acted upon they would not know whose petitions'
they were called upon to receive. '
Sir C. Moser( yeas of opinion, though in form
this was only the petition Of the 61(11611'111s who
hid signed it, in fact it was dial Of the county
meeting.

Mr. LUSIIINGTON slated his. Hun. Friend (Sir
E. Knatchhull) to have admitted the. Petition to
be that of the meeting, but not of the county.
He concurred in this view of the subject, a he
believed the general fettling of.the county of Kent
to be very much against it.

P‘ousobtav wished to know, [IS this Poi.
tion was denied to he that of the county, Whether
the other acts of •the meeting were to be 'consi-
dered us the acts of individuals ? Would it he
denied, for instance, that the Address to ale
Prince Regent, and
_the Vote of Thanks to the
Marquis of Camden for laying dow►► his over-

grown sinecure, were the acts of N enmity meet-
ing. He did not expect to hear any one assert
this, and he thought it was not very decorous to
speak of the Petition as some Gentlemen had
done.

Sir E. KNATCHBVLL said, perhaps the night
Honourable Gentleman did not know ici 'whit
manner the county meetings were usually con-
vened. It was common to make the intended
meeting known to all parties whEi [night be sup-
posed to feel interested in At. As one of the
County Members, be might have expected that
au application world have been made to him to
attend. None such however had been made, and
most of the leading characters in the county had
been treated in the same way, Some however he
knew had been applied to,' who had' refused to
sign the requisition. '
Sir W, Gentty said he had beard of the intended
meeting lung before it took place. The requisi-
tion had been very respectably /signed ; themeet-
ing was a full and fair one, and in his.opioion it
expressed the spirit of the county. •
Mr.CaLcuArr. observed, in what bad fallen from
the lion, Baronet on the subject of his not' having
been 'applied to, that it was oot :common-on st!ch
occasions to send a requisition round to more than
a few persons wlio were believed to be, friendly to
the object. of the intended meeting. SUCII a
thin., was never thought of,
The petition was read, and ordered to lie • on.
the table.