The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-29 00:00:00

other day, a must extraordinary statement had been• made by
the Rev. Dr: Buchanan—a statement which occasioned him
(Mr. Fox Maule) considerable .surprise, yet knowing the
gentleman from whom it came, and believing that he could
not be guilty of any wilful misrepresentation, he had written
to that gentleman,expressing his surprise at the statement which
had been made, and requesting explanation of the circumstances
attending it. He (Mr. Fox Maule) would, in the first place,
read to the House the passage which Dr. Buchanan had
quoted at the meeting to which he (Mr. F. Malik) had
referred. Dr. Buchanan said that he formed one of a deputation
from Seotland which waited upon the Right Hon. Baronet
on the subject of Church Extension, and they were much
struck by the declarations which the Right Hon. Baronet had
made on that oceation. He thought it was of the highest
moment that the established churches of the country should
unite on the common ground of their Christian faith to resist
the encroachments of Popery. It was most important, Dr.
Buchanan emphatirally added, to look to the statement which
followed. It was important, the Right Hon. Baronet continued,
that the Protestant establishments should unite at that period,
when the order of the Jesuits in most of the countries of
Europe, particularly in Russia and Belgium, was endeavour-
ing to extend its influence and establish its power; and when
Popish chapels and seminaries in this country were so regu-
larly on the increase. He was persuaded that ere long a
struggle would arise in which they would have to determine
whether Popery or Protestantism should have the ascendancy.
Such were the opinions of the Right Honourable Baronet
in the month of May, 1838. He would now read
to the House the grounds on which Dr. Buchanan
defended his use of that statement. Dr. Buchanan's
letter contained a confirmation of the use of the
words he used, and also contained the Doctor's justifica-
tion. He wrote to him in answer to a letter which he ( Mr.
Fox Maule) had written to him (Dr. Buchanan) in these
terms :—" I have received your letter of the 15th inst. in re-
ference to a speech of mine delivered in our Church Synod of
Glasgow, in which you express astonishment at a certain
statement I then made, and request me to supply you with
information relating to it. I can have no possible objection to
answer your inquiries, but as you intimate your intention to
make some use of my statement, you must allow me to mention
the circumstances which induced me to quote from my note book.
The Synod at the time was discussing a resolution against the
Maynooth endowment, and while speaking on that question I
had occasion to allude to the article in replying to the often re-
peated notion of the present day that the power of Popery, so
far as this country is concerned, is at an end. On such a point
I thought it important to be able to adduce the testimony of a
man whom no one could accuse of religious enthusiasm, and no
man could be a better witness than Sir Robert Peel, and fortu-
nately I had a memorandum in my possession of a remarkable
statement made by that Right Hon. Gentleman upon the
subject which we were then discussing. In so doing, I
ventured to think I was not violating any principle, the state-
ment in question having been made not through a private indi-
vidual, but to an official body, and having reference solely to
matters which were of an official character. The observation
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman I conceive to be both
true and important, and which there could be no possible
reason or ground for concealing from anybody. For the accuracy
of the report which you mention, I can only state that in the
Scottish Guardian the quotation from my note-book is given
verbatim. I can vouch for the accuracy of the words,
for within a few hours time after they were
spoken by Sir Robert Peel, I made a note of them. 'I
he state-
ment was made on the 24th March, 1838, to a deputation from
the Scottish Synod on the subject of the Church of Scotland ;
and many of the deputation, I have no doubt, heard the state-
ment, and can answer for its accuracy. As to the accuracy of
my note-hook, I have the most perfect confidence. Imme-
diately after the words were spoken I wrote them down, anti
read them over to some of my colleagues, who certainly were
satisfied that I had taken the expressions correctly. Mr.
Pringle was one of the deputation, and I have no doubt he will
attest the truth of my note-book." That was the statement of
Dr. Bechanan—a man, as far as he knew of him (and he had
known him for some time), incapable of making a misrepre-
sentation upon this subject. Now, he would not go upon the
declaration of Dr. Buchanan alone, but he would ask his
Right Hon. Friend if the statement was not correct ? If it
were true, what were they to think of the leader of a great
party who, while in Opposition, employed these very indi-
viduals against measures of this kind, and embuing
their minds with feelings which raised a No-Popery
cry—now, while at the head of the Government,
turned round and brought forward a measure directly opposed
to this feeling? He would venture to affirm that such a course
was an entire subversion of all political consistency. He thought
the Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues might have got rid
of their difficulties if they had set to work in the right way of
legislating for Ireland. It would have been much better if
they had tried to repair the wrongs and injustices under which
Ireland had suffered, and placed her people on an equal
footing of civil equality with the people of this country.
Had they pursued this policy he had no doubt the House would
cordially have agreed with them, *and such measures would
have had a much more permanent effect in tranquillizing the
sister country, but, said the Right Hon. Baronet, this measure
would give peace and tranquillity to Ireland, but where, he
would ask, would be the use cf this, if the Right Honourable
Baronet left an apple of discord behind him ? If the Right
Hon. Baronet had sent his conciliation to Ireland in the shape
of an increased civil qualification for its people,the people of Eng-
land would have been perfectly ready to give him their support,
for they had already admitted that they were willing to deal with
Ireland so far as temporal and civil matters were considered.
But by sending such a measure as this they were performing
an act of conciliation, which would not have the effect of allay-
ing the agitation in Ireland, while on this side of the Channel
it would serve to encourage and foster discontent. The answer
which had been received from the people of Ireland conid not
lead Government to hope that their measure would have the
effect of permanently averting the future results of the
Repeal Association. They had been told that the measure
had been forced from them—that their fears, and not
their love of justice, had beers the cause of Government
introducing this measure. The people of England saw
what the people of Ireland had got from pursuing the
system of agitation, and Government might rely up ,n it that
the English people, rather than sanction this measure, would,
he believed from the bottom of his heart, become mote
thorough repeaters than the people of Ireland were at this mo-
ment. He believed, on his conscience, that the great body of
. .

the people of England, and certainly the great majority of
own countrymen believed, that the establishment of the
Roman Catholic religion in Ireland in connexion with
the State would be a most enormous evil, and rather than
sanction it they were prepared to do away altogether
with the connexion between Church and State. For
his own part, he should prefer seeing any other poli-
tical party in power than the one which would submit to
such a violation of conscience as this measure must inevitably
lead to. Let the Government try some other road to confer
peace upon Ireland than this measure. He did not believe that
the sacrifices Government were making were not worth the
result which they anticipated from it. If they gave this mea-
sure to Ireland there would be an end to all public credit and
all confidence in the public character of the public men in that
House would be sacrificed.—( Hear, hear.) He said if they
passed this measure they would be doing more damage to this
country than any Minister—whether the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite or his Right lion. Friend the Member for the City of
London—would ever be able to remedy.
Mr. PRINGLE did not intend to have offered himself to
the attention of the House, but as the Hon. Member for
Perth had referred to him in the course of his speech, he
could hardly avoid troubling the House for a few moments. It
however,u.ent, be impossible had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman that he could
speak to the accuracy of some expression which had fallen
from his Right Ho 1. Frienwdoantist hweh:heehatdhhaaioti of
been read
they
eoavde
containedr
inem tehnet
ibdl e
they
r
him to tax his memory so far as to be able to affirm the cor-
rectness few years back.
the
eits %sr-es:eh:Lon
were nearly those used by the Right Hon. Baronet himself.
rueoctunsees, sbourt, trsuothfarofas
He bad no hesitation in sayinrs
the sineere sentiments of the Right Honourable
Gentleman at the time, and it was his belief
that the Right Honourable Baronet was no less
sincere when he thought that this measure would
greatly improve the condition of the people of Ireland. Had
the Right Hon. Gentleman thought his measure would have
the tendency to injure the Protestant interest of this country
or place the Roman Catholic Church in the ascendancy, he
was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would never have brought
it forward. It was because he feared that it would have that
effect, that he ventured to oppose the Right Hon. Baronet on
this occasion. There was no statesman for whom he had a
greater respect than the Right Hon. Baronet himself, and in
all ordinary measures introduced by the Governm, nt he
should have his conti.!ence and support. Had he had any
doubt upon the tendencey of the measure, he should have been
itntlined to have relied upon the better judgment of the Right
Hon. Baronet, but he was fully convinced that the measure
wou'd have the effect of encouragingßoman Catholic supremacy.
And he should not, therefore, be following the dictates of his
own conscience if he did not oppose it. He was, moreover,
fully convinced that this grant would be followed by ulterior
measures, and this was an additional reason for his appearing
on the present occasion as an opponent to the Government.
He thought that ultimately the struggle must come, and that
the time was not very distant. He did not wish to take up the
time of the House, and, besides, he did not think it was very
edifying to discuss questions of this nature in the House of
Commons.—( ) The speech of the Hon. Member for
Sheffield had a tendency to provoke the discussion, but he was
not desirous to go into He it ) Neither did he wish to
he provoked to say anything which could hurt the feelings of
those who differed from him in religion—(Cheers)--and he
would assure the House that towards his Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects he had no feeling but kindness. —( Hear.) He
should, therefore, merely conclude by stating that those senti-
ments of his own which, however, he had feebly expressed,
were the opinions of a large proportion of the people of this
country.--(Cheers.)
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL, as an Irish Member, and an
Irish Roman Catholic, was unwilling that the debate should
pass over without an opportunity to him of expressing grati-
tude on the part of hit countrymen and co-religionists to her
Majesty's Governmont for the course they had taken on this
subject.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) He was grateful for the cant id
manner in which the Ministers had stated that their past
policy could no longer be maintained.—( Cheers.) In that
candid avowal he saw the beginning of a better policy.—
(Cheers.) He believed, also, that many Members upon that
(the Opposition) side of the House equally deserved his grati-
tude—( Hear, hear)—and he particularly thanked the Noble
Lord the Member for London for the manner in which he re-
sisted temptation, which none but a man of his strength of
mind could resist, and which some of his former colleagues
were not able to resist—(Cheers)—and had come forward
to give this measure his undivided support.—(Cheers.)
The measure was valuable notwithstanding the smallness
of the sum with which the lion. Member for_Asiton had taunted
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. The measure was only valu-
able as the promise of others.—( Hear' hear. ) Let him not
be misunderstood—he did not mean the promise of endowment
to the Catholic Church.—(" Hear" and a laugh.) Let him
speak to Hon. Members opposite, from Oxford—to Knares-
borough.—( A laugh.) Ho would ask them on what ground it
could be resisted as the religion!of the majority?—( Hear, hear. )
If the present motion were resisted upon that ground, it would
not be surprising if the endowment were demanded as a right—
( Hear, bear)—for he was glad to say that the people of Ireland
did not desire it.—(llcar, hear.) But the measures which
he looked for were of another kind—they were measures such
as long ago were brought under the consideration of the House
by Mr. Smith O'Brien. There was the landlord and tenant
question. Into that Ministers had made an inquiry, and he
was bound to say that the result of that inquiry, although not
all that he would wish, was much inure than lie expected—
' ( Hear)—and he trusted that the Government would lose no
time in bringing forward their rneasu-e founded on the re-
port. lie would not now go into the question of the franchise,
which formed no part of the present subject; but he trusted
that her Majesty's Government had not left it out of their con-
sideration. .gain, se to the Established Church, which his
fan. f'riend the Member fur Sheffield had ably brought be-
fore the House, he trusted the Government would put it in a
condition more befitting a church which was owed to the re-
ligious feeling of the people, who wei s,ompelled to support it.
--( Hear.) He tru,ted that :Ministers would take up all these
questions without the fear of being twitted by their
political opponents on the ground .of inconsistency.
lie trusted they would do syhi4 was rigio, without
feeling the 3atina or their enemies or the deser-
tion of their supporters. He did not say that they would
suppress the repeal agitation—they might still have pamphlets
and speeches in favour of repeal, and great meetings, such as
some honest ' might fear; and many partizans pretend
to 'dread.' But they should recollect that there were two
kinds of. aiitatiollcHear heir.)thei, convinced th