The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-23 00:00:00

The Bill was then read a second time.
On the motion that the Bill be committed, in order
that it be postponed,
111 r. ROEBUCK said he wished to put a question
to the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. That Hon.
Gentleman had stated that a Minister of the Crown
had used his influence as a Minister of the Crown to
induce an officer of the Government, he believed an
Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, to make a false re-
turn to that House for the purpose of crushing a
Member of that House.—(Hear, hear.) He was jus-
tified in asking who was that Minister of the Crown
who had thus used his power ; who was the officer
Whom the Crown employed ; and who ivas the Mem-
ber sought to he crushed, for it must have been that
a fly was crushed upon the wheel. The Hon. Gentle-
Man must give them a peculiar light on the matter as
to who the Minister of the Crown was who had used
the power of the Government to induce a sworn
Officer to make a false charge to the House for the
Purpose of crushing a Member of the House. But if
the charge turned out to be false, what where they to
think of an Hon. Member who accused a Minister of
the Crown with using the authority of the Govern-
ment to induce an officer of the Government to pro-
Pagate falsehoods which would be a disgrace to human
nature ?
Mr. FERRAND said the Right Hon. Gentleman had
not been able in this case to avail himself of that systign
to which he generally resorted in that House, of coming
Luckily
to take an undue advantage of an Hon. Member.
he (Mr. Ferrand) was prepared, as far as his own
recollection went, to state to the House the circumstances
to which he referred. During the discussion of the New
Poor-law in that Honse, it happened that he addressed
the Rouse. After he had sat down—he believed it was
balranlediately on his resuming his seat—the Right Hon.
ronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
went drew out of the box opposite to him a report, from
'Lich he made charges against him (Mr. Ferrand) as a
ica,:Payer and inhabitant of the Keightley union, which
t'F: 'knew were false. That report had been obtained by
(Rear.)
Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, Mr. Mott.—
. ioslar.) A Committee of that House was appointed
inquire into the allegations of that report. Magis-
qv_
• eitt, poor-law guardians, servants of the union, de-
("ane after the other, that it was untrue, and some
them that it was scandalously false. A Committee
fat
House had declared, though he was sorry to say
that Committee did not do justice under the circum-
st s of the case, still it declared that many parts of
be btePort were overcharged. But he was not going to
to Put down by the report of that Committee. He came
j that House and asked for fresh returns, to procure
Tree for himself and for the rate-payers of the parish.
Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury,
br," the Secretary of State for the Home Department, op-
ei..`4ed those returns. He in vain applied to that House to
Fimilt,them• There was an inclinat;on at first to prevent
the fro obtaining them, but, at last, the Noble Lord,
w tTlember for the City of London, said he thought it
eald be unjust on the part of that House to refuse him
wose returns. Noes were counted on that order, and it
rnEt3l„ f°.ond by the Government that they would be in a
result
if they
nuit ? resisted his motion. But what was the
The returns, which were not laid on the
table the end of the session, proved that the report
the
. Poor-law
; and before another session came Mr. Mott,
Commissioner, was dismissed, and thus
treeented from being brought to the bar of that House.
torider the circumstances of the case, it was the duty of
e ,Government to give information to that House and
ki Ws country as to the reasons of the
I:B4die-
of Mr. Mott.—(Hear, hear.) He himself
kia brought that question under the notice
Tretue Rouse. He appealed to the First Lord of the
of taisury to do justice to the rate-payers of the parish
tv,..hgley, He could tell him that there was not a
it.' Payer of that parish who was not fully prepared to
Ctiaod by him, and to prove that the report was scanda-
NZ): false; and until the Right Hon. Baronet the Se-
Irel;`Y of State for the Home Department told him (Mr.
)3,-atid) and the country how it was that report was
whlight out of the box, he could not cease to repeat
At he had said on this subject.
tio„rt ROEBUCK said he must complain that his ques-
t etts4„ad not been answered. He had appealed to him to
liatFu-lh that an officer of the Crown had used his power
40,14fluence over an officer in the employmeut of the
(letup-lent to induce him to make a false report.—
pso;tr.) The Hon. Gentleman had done nothing but
Ne that the report was false. The charge still remained
h officer of the Crown had used his. power for such
ke-tse, and how scandalous the charge was the Hon.
r had not shown.—(Hear, hear.)
bes • 'ERRAND did not know what the Hon. Mena-
meant by using such language.
*hat ROEBUCK said his language was plain, and
kree meant was plain.
'ERRAND said the Hon. Member was not go-
ie7t Bchool him. He had used language in that House
atid it was unbecoming him as a Member of that House,
TO gentleman.—(Hear, hear.)
k ° SPEAKER said he must call upon the Hon.
bee to retract his expressions.
thias:+l,ERAND said he would willingly do every
i_l47,*ue Speaker wished.
ROEBUCK•ketoi; wished to know whether the Hon.
(Re repeated the charge to which he had referred?
RIghtORRAND said what he stated was, that the
fale„, _On- Gentleman had used his influence to procure
sir report
ftro°te tjh'eTtAHAM said, until the last words which fell
-reuse L_ on. Member he had looked with great indif-
lie uoth to the charge and to the discussion itself.
11s (•se.°- Member had deliberately asserted that which
Oye Graham) had hardly thought he could
io 41.1"11 upon himself to assert of him, much
'est h his presence and before that House, viz.,
tves te6 (Sir James Graham) had used his official
41,4 anot
th9htain a false report. He (Sir J. Graham)
think it worth while to move that the words be
41t ther-wn, which was the usual course in such cases.
as"attle
„ was no mistake that the Hon. Gentleman had
44,14-' stated, after some deliberation—because he
pa,the Ilaoecessarily the question in the first instance,
ofiq to question was then repeated—that he was pre-
cialpoassert that he (Sir J. Graham) had used his
It IllasosWer and influence to obtain a false report for
ee,lllltl ;le Of crushing him (Mr. Ferrand). He thought
-3Lde e impossible, considering that assertion, and
I,,ljavorlertlg.,,.the position' which
.he (Sir. J. Graham) held
d,libu, her Majesty—considering that the assertion
umber wer,lltely made—he was quite sure the Hon.
•Vale tin; as well as himself, feel that it was im
10-11. demand redress then, but he hoped that the
8/11)3t4h;•laall was prepared to take the proper course
4)42% //VI, the charge.—(Opposition- cheers.)
tha`:aeraed tE said there was another question which
the Sty .s ha greater importance. It had been asserted
Gt°laeial "t lion. Secretary of State had made use of
hellie,lathience to induce the Hon. Member who
4141e/A hun (Mr. Hogg, we understood the Hon. '
la all to ref gg' •
Was ; I ect;„ er to), when Chairman of the Notting-
Olt ~.411 resift Committee to commit perjury ; for such
tie,,‘-hairmai the nature of the charge, as he presumed
,o,,,",Oottunitt as
well as the other members of an Elec-
*it's Ing to hisce was sworn to deliberate and decide, ac-
411t
4 Most conseience. It appeared to him that that
11:
os n serious charge brought against the Right
,waT,,,,et. himself, and against the Hon. Gentleman
:illoalearnan of the Committee in question, and
tsehr- Ftßit AaPPy to hear some explanation of it.
expr beg leave to say that I never used
Iv% r• WARri°ll--(0h, oh.)
(Qh aedulou , —I am bound to say that the impression
sesesq.....thsly inculcated in the country at large—
litty3c, in the Chairman of a Committee of this
eto nischarge of his duty, which was to decide
ululated that conflicting claims of two parties, had grossly
ttt • dut
to be rid or 3r7 and that he used subterfuge in order
%tee ehh a 'Member of this House who was supposed
ad °xious
de
he
to the persons in power, and who was
(the of the rights of the 1 • 1 th t
Ilty • Chaim wor cing c asses—
his
q an of the Committee) discharged his
v_ 11Pon h• way as to cause the whole House to cry
1,4 gat the lin when he made the report to the House,
tlie that "IY, the solitary voice which cheered him,
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for
sow this 7Pnartment. And I had no idea when I ea-
Vcob before
..1° se that such a question as that which is
te 1,, us,
.Ivould have been brought forward, and of
I wili°ll,la have no intention of taking part in it;
-"'ed just
l's 4 at sever advert to something which has been
Lee hss beeral of these public meetings to which refe-
c,rtaited ei_tt made, which was, that such was the sense
ale` theßight "(ter stated n. Baronet at the head of the Govern-.
Of tk on one night, when leaving the House
40„nlon on this Bill, that the Christian feeling
tVittphZfertload beaten the Government on the factory
s,iistood fek.l.4 nd cheers.) I cannot help hoping that
&I
ttoneenng of then Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ferrand)
the ,e him to sa that he has been misled
I,vhieh warmth 0„
tae eh he take • his own feelings on a subject
444 t wadi_ es an interest, and that he had not at-
Arts eh
he Ne,nt importance to the words he was using,
duds stoh .as not at the moment aware of the deep im-
_welch the were orteeo Y calculated to make on t
h who naturallybetter supposed that the Hon. Gen an the acquainted withwhat is •
passing
Whir.-s,Eoby could be.
tit„lt Iaa,""AND—I am quite
I.q/4111'e said, but I quite prepared to stand by
41 from never recollect any such expres-
x„.l% Virk.,„onl me.
Oastler.
Saber, RR,
th.”t Ro AND—I am not Mr. Oastl • hsle at, liaronet the er s keeper. The
sere h Home Secretary was, a short
tin respect he is now at Ebert•
—(L h
I,l,Rhaoi et to the language I y. ug te.) But
ao oleo- used relatina• to the Not-
-. 0 -lon, I have to state that I •
ouht. °llse." I said, " those who never said " the
t afar., ti•--(Cries of ti Oh se sat on this side of the
, oh.")
e _ to hope the Hon. Gentleman will be kind
tvteet,i.) T State to the House what he
da_at he ~1)e he will be kind did say—(Loud
enough to state d' •
Ovow utti State, and I h • istinctly
t the re ope that he will either avow or
414
al port of his speech which never would
Y °Ye if I had not seen tskek P'S given in ofthe a prominent part of
one leading columns of the
tie,* ot thrt particular statement respecting m self I
Other statement which has been alludedy to
atittitelep,.) er
"ut never heard of until this moment.—
port th to tell hope the Hon. Gentleman will be kind
that Of hi the House whether he
he he speech in the Times has seen the re-
w.ill distinctl newspaper, and I hope
.(/.lere 111 ,
that
state to the House, and I hope the
tt4ers......th'eu'ilpont.hotralnthlave a right, not only to request
A,lliust spit: aa officer of tehlisalL'uvsas i.nterupted by loud
requilm,l duty—a right to in the discharge of
tkltbte.vowrettalat Hon- demandGntlemrtnlit. that this House
'i!re''4111(11111t1i3 speech as reported, ansdlawch
liychtohaaysowbeeonr
put forward in a leading article of the
Tine' ti„'„P_Per--(Great cheering )
i;)/te.s, andD--I saw the -*
th, the vso d `• leading article in the
r s which I used, and what I asserted
'mon referred to, are h t ere quoted, and are