The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

surprised at the case he attempts to make upon the
question. What were the Noble Lord's arguments in support
of maintaining the Established Church in Ireland ? One was
that in 1757, and in 1792, and some other years which the
Noble Lord mentions, the Roman Catholics, when asking for
a removal of the present penal laws and disabilities under
which they laboured, said that they did not complain of the
Church Establishment. Did any body ever hear of such a
reason for keeping up such a system ? Is it not perfectly
notorious that in the ordinary progress of affairs men suffering
under any grievances, and feeling some more strongly than
others, ask to get rid of the most severe? When they
were suffering from other penal laws, and did not
ask for a removal of the Established Church, was
that a .reason why they did not desire its removal ?
Why, I could give the Noble Lord an instance in his own
practice in that respect. Does not every one know that in the
agitation for the abolition of the slave trade, all its advocates
disclaimed in the most earnest manner the intention of seeking
to emancipate the slaves ? Such was the language of Lord
Grenville, of Mr. Pitt, of Lord Howick (now Earl Grey), and
d Mr. Fox, when he brought in his Bill on the subject. Mr.
Wilberforce used the same language ; and, in 1807, the present
Duke of Northumberland proposed to introduce a Bill to abo-
lish slavery. Mr. Wilberforce pulled him down, and said
" our victory is to be over the slave trade." And when the
Noble Lord brought in his Bill, in which he developed that
plan with his usual ability, in which he pointed out all the hor.
rible evils he was going to remove, what would he have said if
a person had got up in the House, and declared with Mr.
Pitt and Mr. Fox that- his argument was to be an
argument against the Noble Lord carrying out his
views ? This, happily, the Noble Lord has refuted by his own
practice. The Noble Lord said much about the impossibility
of repealing the sth article of the Act of Union. Now the
fourth article of the Act of Union fixed the proportion of the
number of Members for Great Britain. The fourth article was
altered, and who was it that brought in the Bill to effect that
alteration ? The Noble Lord.—(Cheers from the Opposition. )
Well, then, to 'come to the Noble Lord's argument respecting
the Roman Catholic oath. If the Noble Lord were present I
should be inclined, with all the great personal respect which I
entertain for him, to be a little mare severe,' 'but now I shall
merely confine myself to his argument in the.-ease. When was
such an argument ever heard of? Put it even hi -the strongest
way, and- it amounts only to this, that the Roniart Catholic
Members should walk out when we were going to vote
on the subject of the Church Establishment. But when we,
the orthodox Protestant Members, are present, what is the
course to be adopted ? Is a man not to vote on the subject,
because a particular individual in the House is tied up by an
oath on the question ?—( Hear, hear.) Are we other
640 Members, who are not so tied up, not to
discuss the question? If the Noble Lord has no other
argument than this in support of his system, he has a very poor
case indeed. I hope the Government will deal with this sub-
ject in a larger and mere comprehensive manner, and as a
matter worthy its high position. The Right Hon. Gentleman
at the head of the Government will not come down, I am confi-
dent, to discuss such a question with a piece of an old journal in
his hand, and tell us something about 1792 and 1797—he
will feel that he must do battle upon this question, as it
has reference to an institution, as it is either a good or a bad
one. What are the ends for which an Established Church
exists ?—( Hear.) Does the Church in Ireland accomplish
those ends ?—( Hear.) Can a Church which has no hold on
the great body of the people be other than useless or worse ?
.Has the Church in Ireland that hold on the people?—( Hear. )
It has existed two centuries and a half, and has she yet suc-
ceeded in making such a great conquest among the Irish
people, that she can be called, like the Church of England, or
the Church of Scotland, the poor man's church ? Has she
induced the body of the people to join her, or has she excited
in them a reverence or a respect for the State ? These are
the rational grounds on which a Church is supported, and not
the views advocated in a speech made many years ago, and in
a petition presented in the reign of George 11. by an un-
happy and persecuted people, who, under such laws as those
of the penal code, did not ask for the removal of the Established
Church, and did not even dream of asking for a seat in Parliament.
But, Sir, I have said now quite enough to entitle me to
give the vote which lam going to do. I think myself that
those evils have been brought upon us by the false and
I,
policy which the Government have pursued, and
I, do not think there is any possibility, that while their sys-
tem is followed in Ireland that country can be peaceable.
I also think it utterly impossible that till Ireland is peace-
able and well affected the empire can enjoy its proper dig-
nity, and that which is perhaps better than dignity—secu-
rity. I am confident that in every negotiation that
may be concluded, whether with France respecting
the right of search, or with America respecting
the settlements in the Pacific, however the negotiators may
avoid mentioning the subject, the remembrance of the state of
Ireland is, in the minds of those negotiators, constantly de-
pressing the one and emboldening the other. And so it must
necessarily be with this greatly extended and mighty empire,
well provided though it be with every means of offence and de-
fence. This empire has at her command means which no
other empire that ever existed in the world possessed. She can
stipulate terms of peace to the Court of China. She governs
Australasia and Caffraria. It is in her power to drive from the
seas the commerce of every country on the globe, and again
blockade all the ports of Europe, from the Baltic to
the Adriatic. It is in her power to guard her
Indian empire against every attack. But, amidst
all this mass of power, there is one vulnerable point
near to her heart in which some forty-five years ago a
blow was struck which had nearly proved fatal. For the
revival of such a state of things again Parliament is re-
sponsible, but for my part of that responsibility I clear myself
of it, by the vote I am about to give in favour of the motion of
my Noble Friend, and I earnestly hope I shall have on that
occasion so large and respectable a party as may satisfy the
Irish Roman Catholics that they still have friends in England,
and that they must not relinquish the hope of protection from
the wisdom and justice of the Imperial Parliament.—( Loud
end long-continued cheers. )
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said be fully appreciated
the eloquence of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, blet at the same time he felt it to be his duty to allude to
the motion which the Noble Lord had brought before the House.
He (the Solicitor-General) would ask what had induced the
Noble Lord to bring that motion before the House ?—( Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial benches.) He should take the
answer from what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, when he said that the object was to pass a vote of censure
on her Majesty's Ministers, for their general conduct of affairs
since their accession to office, anti above all for their adminis-
tration in Ireland, and in the case of the State prosecutions.
Such being the undeniable result of the Noble Lord's motion,
he (the Solicitor-General) would ask, would not the effect of
it be to give encouragement to these who violated the
law in Ireland—(Cheers from the Tory benehes)—and to
those who were disaffected towards the Government?
He thought also he had a right to complain of the particular
time at which the Noble Lord had brought forward this mo-
tion, because although the verdict of the jury had been brought
in, no sentence had been, as yet, pronounced, and he now, by
his motion, called upon the House to give an opinion, not
alone as to the legality of the matter, but also as to its policy.
From his (the Solicitor-General's) close observation of the
course of those trials to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
alluded, he should say that no man with an unprejudiced mind
could pronounce them to be otherwise than perfectly fair, and
that the jury had pronounced the only verdict which could be
come to from the evidence before them. Let them look to the
state in which Ireland was at the time when those prosecutions
were established, and then ask themselves whether the Govern-
ment were not fully justified in the course which they had
adopted. In October the prosecutions were begun, and
at that time, and for months before, the Repeal
agitation had been in most active operation, and the
Repeal Association had been carrying out its objects in a
manner which tended to the subversion of all order. In
alluding to the Repeal Association, he felt it necessary to say a
few words—the more so because he was not present when the
Noble Lord spoke of this body. He (the Solicitor-General)
would say that the objects and intent. of that Association were
to effect ostensibly a repeal of the union, but he felt convinced
that the result of such a measure would, if carried, be an ulti-
mate separation of the two countries. The Noble Lord had said
that the Association was like any other, and should therefore
have like toleration.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the
Imperial Parliament had the right to repeal an Act of Parlia-
ment; but he thought there were certain Acts which must be
considered as permanent from their nature—(Cries of " Oh,
oh")—and one was the Act of Settlement, by which her Ma-
jesty held the Crown, beside which he would place the Act
of Union. He thought that no body, associated for
the purpose of altering the basis upon which the Mo-
narchy and the Constitution rested, could be legal.
It had been said that the law had been strained in Ireland,
,but it must be borne in mind to whom the cards were given.
They were given to men who were absolutely at the disposal,
nod under the command, of one of the parties who were after-
weards indicted, he meant the Hon. and Learned Member for
Cor,,e (Mr. O'Connell). They were men at his disposal and
under. his command, and were ready either for action or in
action. They were ready to remain quiet and bide their time
as they were directed, or to muster for action at a given
signal. , ill this was attended by the assembling in different
parts of Leland of hundreds of thousands of people marehine
an order u ader their repeal wardens as officers—mustering oh
the ground .in such numbers that anything like discussion or
deliberation was wholly impossible. At these meetings the
leaders of th a people hurled defiance against the Government
of the countr y. They not only spoke defiance, but they even
threatened weir, saying that they were ready to meet the people
of England— that they were ready for war if the people thought
ra fit to engage i it. Were such things, he would ask, to be
allowed to coz itinue ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked whether it
was consistent with the well-being of the country for the Go-
vernment to allow such a state of things to continue ? It had
been said Mit the law had been strained. Now he fearlessly
put it to any 2L-lon. Gentleman whether such a state of things
could exist .xn any country calling itself civilised—could it
exist in aco in itry where the law was properly vindicated ? He
thought it cor ild not. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat downs, said that the difficulties of the Government were
to come, for if they attempted to enforce their sentence on
Mr. O'Connell, there would be an outbreak in Ireland. If
that Hon. a al Learned Gentleman had violated the law the
Governmentrwould be neglecting their duty if they did not en-
force the Law. Her Majesty's Ministers finding that such
was the state .ore things in Ireland decided that they would not
come to that TI ouse for additional powers, but that they would
trust to the fon ce of the common law for restoring order in
Ireland. In co nsequence of this the late prosecutions were
instituted. e Right Honourable Gentleman who had
just sat down ',had said the law adopted in Ireland in the
late trials was • not the usual or ordinary law. The Right
Honourable ChM tleman said there were precedents to be
found in the :seventeenth century but not since. The
Noble LOrd opposite had designated it as " judge-
made law." Vt rith respect to this expression of the
Noble -Lord he could only say that if the Noble Lord
meant that. the int/lament had been formed upon the common
law, as declared and recognised by successive judges from the
judgment-seat, he (the Solicitor-General) perfectly agreed
with him. The Nimble Lord said he was noe lawyer, but the
Noble Lord knew enough
of the law and
common
law cistaiftnEtionnglaonfdt,haiss
country, to convi ac .e him that the
was thnefHsteineuperitnypuleponnf
declared and recognised by the judge.,
which the lives, t he property, and the freedom of
this country mainly, depended. But the Gentle-
man who had just sat down, had said that no prseincneedit for the ,
law, as laid down tin Ireland, could be found
seven-
teenth century. IVow, he (the Solicitor-General)tfeeeeea
indictment which ra nin almost the same words as the late in- mulaVicl.l.ll7 ENTERTAINMENTS. TII2
dictment in Ireland, and this indictment was prepared in the Store-street, was last night crowded to excess,
year 1795. The pv'sons on that occasion were convicted, and and many persons were compelled to retire, unable to get
the sentence of the. Court of Queen's Bsnch was imprison within the walls. Mr. Wilson gave on the occasion what he
calls his selected entertainment, which contains many of
ment; Lord Kenyan at the time being Lord Chief Justice,
and Mr. Justice Lawrence and Mr. Justice Ashurst were those delightful old songs, humorous and pathetic, which lie
NNllllrtrie so peculiarly his own, and which he never gave
the counsel. lie could come even to later dates.
He held in his hand an indictment, which had eemed to revel in the feeling and fun of the va-
voice,
acniteirsgusto than last evening, for he was in capital
been preferred by Lord Campbell when he was Attorney- 'ions strains with which he delighted his audience. He an-
General
hisd Entertainment of " Mary
under the -Noble Lords (Lord .1. Russell) Govern- nounced for neattheMosnoila?s,
praens6
oeixquisite old melocl:es of
went. 'that indictment was for a conspiracy of a precisely Queen of Scots,"
_ hicing it.
similar nature to the one in Ireland. 'The form of the indict- , which made so great an itn
r,wlivtli:leelieenllll7n hasse
i on his brat p-c( •
meat was almost in words the same, and upon it the defendants Mr. Wilson gave some of his entertainuie-it
s mere convicted in this country, and were sentenced to imprison- success last week in Liverpool and Moodiest
silent and fine. Why, since he (the Solicitor- General) had ' many admirers, and visits them again duringthe
held the office he at present had the honour to fill, it had been .SAVING LlvEs moat SHIPWRECK. The French
French
Isis duty, at the last special commission in Stafford, to direct ate
indictment of a Precisely similar kind. The Magistrates had w,Liiits and other Deal boatmen, 4CO francs, for services.
committed the defendants for high treason, but he (the Soli- r in saving the lives of the crew of the French fishing lugger
eitor-General) did not treat the case as one of high treason, Louis Philippe ; and has ordered a silver medal to be pre-
but indicted the parties for conspiracy. Two of those parties I sented to each of those brave men, fur their generous conduct
were convicted, and wete now under sentence. This was an on that occasion.
indictment in England, against persons of comparative
obscurity. And was it a reason, because the person The President of the Royal Society has appointed
was a man of eminence, and therefore more likely
to the Fellows of that learned body.

to have an effect upon the persons he addressed—was it because
he was a man of eminence that he was to be relieved from a
prosecution ? It was this that made the prosecution the more
necessary. The Noble Lord and several Hon. Gentlemen had
said that the act of which Mr. O'Connell bad been convicted,
was done in the face of day. Now, he (the Solicitor-General)
would make one remark as to the lawfulness of those proceedings.
He apprehended that it was a sufficient answer to the Noble
Lord to say that the question had been under the consideration
of the Court possessing the highest criminal jurisdiction in the
country, and it had been decided by the unanimous concurrence
of the judges of that Court, that the form of the proceedings
was according to the law. But it was said that Mr. O'Connell
had not been guilty of a coespiracy, for the Noble Lord said
that conspiracy was always secret and dark. Why, the same
argument might be applied to the cases of conspiracy which
had been tried in England. The indictment against the
Chartists was for assembling together great bodies of the
people, and for addressing them in seditious speeches. A
conspiracy—a political conspiracy—might be dark and secret,
as, where power was in one hand, and the object
was to transfer that power to another. It would
be conspiracy if an attempt were made to excite
the people to rebellion and resistance, or by attempting to in-
timidate a Government by a display of masses of the people or
the physical force of the country. The course of proceeding
in the two cases must be wholly different. The parties worked
by different means. They assembled large masses of the people,
they published seditious placards, and made seditious
speeches. Their object was to inflame, to agitate,
and madden the people. It was plain that this was conspiracy.
These acts were so directed as if they were intended to intimi.
date the Parliament, and all Ireland was filled with tumultuous
meetings.—(Hear, hear.) It was for these offences they were
tried and convicted. The Right Hen. Gentleman who had
just sat down had said, that if there were anything unfair in
the trials it would deprive the verdict of all moral effect.
With respect to the unfairness of the trial—the first thing in
importance—was the formation of the jury.—(Cheers.) The
Government might have proceeded with a common jury. But
that would have precluded the traversers from the privilege of
challenging the jury ; and it was the opinion of the Govern-
ment that a special jury would be liable to less objection. On
that account express directions were given by the Government,
that it should be a special jury, in order that both parties
should stand upon equal terms.—(Hear, hear, and great
laughter.) Then, when they came to the fact of striking the
jury—he thought that there was no ground of complaint.
Instructions were given by the Government that
Catholics should not be struck off as Catholics,
but that the same objection, was to apply equally
to Protestants and Catholics. There was nothing from which
it could be inferred that there was any intention to insult the
Roman Catholics. How could it be, that out of a list of
717 qualified persons the panel was struck, whereas the old
panel consisted of only 308? But it was said, upon the other
side, that it was impossible to have a fair trial by jury in Ire-
land. Nothing so severe had been said on his side of the
House.—( Tory cheers.) It was proposed that when a Ca-
tholic was to be tried the jury were to consist of half Pro-
testints and half ,Catholics. Why, if the statements of gen-
tlemen opposite were true, the consequence of that would be
that there would be no verdict at all. There had been a great
deal said of the omission of some names from the list of special
jurors, but it had been clearly shown—indeed nobody denied—
that the omission was a matter of mere accident, and that the
person through whose negligence the mistake occurred, was
himself a Roman Catholic.
Mr. SHELL—Oh no, ir.deed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Then if the Right Hon.
Gentleman knew who was the guilty person, he ought to name

Mr. SHIEL—I only said it was not a Roman Catholic.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would repeat, that if the
Right Hon. Gentlemen knew who it was, he ought to
,accuse
him openly in that House.
Mr. SHEIL made an observation which did not reach the
gallery, but which was followed by laughter and cheers.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—If the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman made the charge, it was one which was directly con-
tradicted by all of those who had any thing to do
with the conduct of the prosecution, and of whom
several were Members of that House.—( Tory cheers.)
He hail heard harsh comments made upon the conduct
of his Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, but upon
a careful review of his conduct he (the Solicitor-General) had
seen nothing from the commencement but a great willingness
to accommodate the accused, and he never opposed them un-
til they showed a determination to evade the trial, if the forms
of law would avail them for that purpose.—(Cheers.) He
consented in all stages to postpone the procedings whenever the
application for postponement had a reasonable pretext. In his
address to the jury he showed the greatest temper and modera-
tion—( A laugh)—as well as the most consummate discretion,
as a man representing the Crown in a grave proseention.—
( Hear, hear.) The speech of the Solicitor-General
was also remarkable for its temper and discretion,
and the entire absence of any wish to press up m
the accused. He did not think that the accusation
of unfairness came gracefully from the Noble Lord who
brought forward this motion. It had been admitted by those
who followed the Noble Lord en the same side that he had
failed, and wholly failed to substantiate the charge of unfair-
ness. He (the Attorney-General would ask, did not a grave re-
sponsibility rest upon him and upon those who supported this
motion ?—( Loud cheers.) He wished to make a remark on
the charges made against the Government. When they were
told by Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen opposite that they
did not rechess the crying grievances of Ireland he looked, but
looked in vain, for some tangible charge. When it was said
that since the present Administration had been in power they
had not consulted the feelings of the Roman Catholics, he
asked them to cease from mere assertion, and to give him one
tangible charge.—( Hear, hear.) They gave him none—no, not
one ( Cheers.) The only thing they even attempted
was to say--(but they never attempted to prove)—to say
that their administration of patronage had not been equal be•
tween the Catholic and the Protestant. Now he ventured to
say that in the mind of every Member of the Administration,
there was the strongest and most anxious desire to maintain a
perfect system of equality between Protestants and Catholics.
—(Hear, hear.) And here again he would ask for an instance
wherein this rule had not been followed out. Tell him an
instance where the Government bad bestowed an office upon a
Protestant where a Catholic equally competent could be found
to fill it. 'fhe Noble Lord (Russell) had talked about the
Master of the Rolls. Why the man whom the Government
had made Master of the Rolls was Attorney-General in the
Administration of which the Noble Lord was a leading Mem-
ber.—(Cheers.) He was a man of the highest talent, and lie
asked if there was a Roman Catholic then at the bar who for
one moment could be put in competition with him?—(Cheers. )
They could not find one—they could not name one. Why,
th n, what did they mean by bringing these charges
of unfairness against the Government without one tact
to support them ?—Loud cheering.) Let them bring
one instance of supposed unfairness or injustice, and he under-
took it should be answered.—(Cheers.) But he must, before
sitting down, say a word upon another point. W hen they were
told that their measures, as far as they went, were good, but
that they would be of no avail, and that no measure would be
of use in restoring permanent peace to Ireland while the Pro-
testant Establishment existed there—whenthe heard these sen-
timents uttered and cheered as they had been by gentlemen
opposite, he was anxious to know on what authority they were
made.—( Hear, hear.) For he knew that the heads of the
Catholic Church and the leaders of the Catholic body had ab-
solutely mpudiated the idea of taking anything from the State.
—( Hear, hear.) They would take nothing from the State—
they would have no endowment. What then did Honourable
Members mean by saying that they would never be satisfied
till that Churah, whose endowments they sought not, was de-
stroyed ?_( Hear, hear.) Was it indeed true that though they
did not seek the honours or the revenues of the Protestant
Church of Ireland, yet that the price of peace was to be its de-
struction?—( Cheers. ) If that were so, then there would not
be peace—(Cheers)—but he, for one, did not believe it—
( Cheers )—and he ventured to hope that the measures which
from time to time the Government would propose would
have the effect of • giving not only peace, but
happiness and prosperity to that country.—(Cheers.) He
did venture to hope that when it was known in Ireland that
the trade of agitation would no longer be permitted—( Cheers)
—and that the Legislature was willing to lend an ear to all
matters of reasonable complaint, a peaceful and prosperous
tranquillity would be restored to Ireland, and life and pros
perty would have the same security as in other portions of the
British empire.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL briefly explained; and on the
motion of several Members, all speaking at once, the debate
was adjourned till to-morrow (this day).
RAILWAYS.

Mr. GLADSTONE moved that it be an instruction to the
Committee on Railways, that they have power to consider of
any arrangements advantageous to existing railway companies,
to which, in the opinion of the Committee, Parliament might
justly give its sanction.
Mr. HAWES said, that they ought to be cautious how
they interfered with Acts of Parliament, that authorised the
expenditure of large sums of money. He did not mean to
dispute the power of Parliament so to interfere, but it was
usual for a Minister to explain more fully what his objects
were than the Hon. Gentleman had done.
Mr. GLADSTONE said, he had last session explained his
opinions and intentions on this subject more fully, and he did
not mean to weary the House with a repetition of them. The
Committee would have equal regard for the interest of private
individuals and the advantage of the public.
After a few words from Dr. BOWRING the motion was
agreed to. •

The following Select Committee on Joint Stock Banks was
was then moved for :—Mr. W. E. Gladstone, Lord Granville
Somerset, Sir George Grey, Sir Walter James, Colonel T.
Wood, Mr. Milnes' Mr. Hawes, Sir W. Clay, Mr. Oswald,
Mr. G. Craig, Mr. Cripps, Mr. Godson, and Mr. Young.
Colonel RA WDON moved for returns of the naval service
employed on the coast of Ireland from 11334 to the present pe-
riod describing the number and class of such vessels, and the
number of men and officers employed for each year.
A few Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.

COMMON PLEAS.-(THIS DAY.)

FRASER V. BAGLEY.-CREII. CON.
This case was resumed this morning, but had not been
brought to a conclusion when our paper went to press.

UNION HALL.-(THIS DAY.)
Edgar Ford, a young man of respectable appearance, was
charged before Mr. Traill, with forging the acceptance to a
bill of exchange for 71. 4s. 61, purporting to be the accept-
ance of Caroline Carpenter.
Mr. Press stated that lie had several money transactions
with the prisoner previously to the present charge. That in
the month of November, he (complainant) discounted the
bill produced, dated the th of November, for 71. 4s. 6d., pur-
, porting to be the acceptance of Caroline Carpenter. When
the bill became due, the prisoner endorsed another bill to
take the former one up, when it was ascertained that the
acceptor's name to both were forgeries. This the complainant
discovered by writing to Caroline Carpenter, who, on examin-
ing the bills, immediately pronounced them to be forgeries.
The prisoner, on being asked what he had to say in answer
to the charge, replied that lie should say nothing at present.
As Mrs. Carpenter was not present, the prisoner was re-
manded.