The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-13 00:00:00

them -the opportunity of contradicting him. In 1811 he
succeeded in carrying his motion for a Committee of En-
(fairy, which accordingly sat and reported arrears of causes
in that Court. In 1812,' the Committee was renewed ;
but how renewed ? Why, renewed with an influx of Mas-
ters in Chanbefy, which was brought into 'it tar Mr. Perci-
val. MasterlOin Chancery were very t,roper persons in
their own jurisdiction- hitt, 'eeeitredly, the last people in
the world' wit.* `elaild have been imported into such a
Cominiseirierla this. The consequence of this addition to
it Was; that the late Sir Samuel Ronailly, perceiving its
incompetency, at once protested that it was impossible to
proceed. Whenever it Was proposed to that neitimittee to
-examine into- the causes, which, connected With The hank-
-ruptcy jurisdiction, might hake Win:111101'0 ilie delay
complained ofse-the -ready answer Was, • " Oh, .ho, the
turd Chancellor is imnieditely dasn'eCted with.. thatele-
rrartment—it is sacred 'grosind•—and must not be touched."
Under these cirCamstatrces, he (Mr. Taylor) was forced to
I apply to this House for further instructions, and accord;
ingly moved that it be an instruction to the Committee to
..examine papers,. persons, and records. TheMirriShe'r hp'e
posed the motion ; the House divided tafrotits' and 'lie la-
mented to state that it Wts lest Ibl, a large majority ; ayes,
24, noes SO, ha 1810 the Hon; Member moved for an
account ef tire tlitnis' effeeta.:.that was of course granted:
Ile then. MOVed that the House should, early next session,
1 tikr into the consideration of the Court of Chaneeryoeite
this motion ho was in a minority • but so tensible was the
House of the importance of the et;h!,ect, that the minority
consisted of only four-'.the ayes being fifty-two, and the
noes. fifty-sia... Mee Williams, Whn was fit that time a
Member rit the House, then 'moved_ h.:enquire into the
'arrears of business—that motion was negatived. The Hon.
Gentleuran'aßight Hon. Vriend (he being absent on some
unfortunate business) then got a commission to issue frort
the Croton, which Commission issued in 1826, the. &port
noon that was made in 1827, but since VIA :Period not one
vestige .of any thing had been done. Two Bills had been
brought in, the one cottprising less than the other. One
of those Bale wee brought forward by the present Lord
t' Chancellor upon which the Honourable Member tool.
II thy liberty of-stating his opinion, and of conNiding that
it was utterly impossible it could beet any effect. The
present Lord Chancellor thee Said he would consult him
upprethe subject, bit Mini that time to this the Bill had
dropped, and ' the business remained precisely in the
same
_state in which it , then was, though. the tionsta
was told that the provisions of the tilt there to be revived
by. order. Upon that Bill the San. Member stated, that,
with the exception of the payment of theMasters' Salaries,
there was - nothitag
.Whatever but what the Chancellor's
order could Honourably carry into effect..-.(Hears heat; '',
Uporathat Lord Eldon slept for a whole yeate the Mlicitor-
General (Sir'J. Copley) thinking thole things had better
be:continued by Act of ParlianYent, though now, in 1828,
the present. Chancellor thought there was no occasion
• for such a step.ese.(Hear, hear. )—This showed the man-
ner in which the business of this Court was carried on..
.It.beppened that the late Lord Chancellor felt the becomes:-
taienee arising from the proceedings in Chatiteery. Ile
felt the arrears pressing upon hins.=-(Attile the Honourable
Member begged to he understood as hot stating any thing
unfriendly, though he telt bOund to state the fact,
beeause, if Gentleinto of- that House were to be led away
by fine speeches, and cempliments were to be paid whets
entleseeved, 'there would be an end to the prisceielinge cat
Palliament.)—(Hear, hear.)--The Honourable MeMber
knew the good qualities as well at the failings of
Lord Eldon, and could 'assert there was not a greater
lawyer in existence, If Lord Eldon had been placed
in - the- Coat of king's Bench, where there were
three other Judges, he would have come, on being pressed,
to a detision. He felt sonic delicacy ita relyitieg oil his own
judgment, and being told there 'sat grninbling in the Cabinet,
the was obliged to shot ki'l his note-book ; away he went,
the eases were fottitten, and judgment lay over for years.
;Lord Elden, however, pressed by the arrears of the busie
eases of the- Court, persuaded both the House of Lords
nand the Commons that-there should be a Vice. Chancellor
appointed. Oft that occasion the Hon. Member took the
sense. of the Hinise whether it would nut be wise to sepa-
'rate the bankrupt 'lntsihesS from the other business of the
Court, in which view of the case he lied the assistance of
one of the' :moist powetftil and ablest men that ever sat in
that 'House, he mitet 'the -late Mr. Canning and
also the ' assistance of Sir - Samuel Romilly, who
[distinctly 'Cold him, that if another -Judge were to be
appointed, the only way of relieving the Court would be
by dividing its business in the manlier to which' he had al-
luded. He had also the opinions of other -Judges in his favour,
whose' names he Was ncit'tt- liberty to mention, but in
the end the vice-thaucellor's Court was erected. A
Speaker also in the House of Lords was appointed to trans=
set the businese of the Scotch, appeals, in order , that
r_ the Chancellor might devote three more in the week
to the a
e Court
re... h
.e
ao
ri
ng
fehs a, n c 5 e
9r y than
exceptions he e couldand
I , d have
detn u
rre done
r m ,
___ had
ait
tl
(at
, a_
Speaker not been appointed. The House would then be
pleased to mark the assistance the lord Chancellor had;
tfeiugli' at the time he would not permit him (the Mon.
Member) to say he required—and yet he gained it
-by hisown motion. The question now was, bow all this had.
improved the Court? He would state what it was thee,
and: what from all the papers it was •now, because the
House was not to suppose that he came to ask for the pro-
daction of papers, because he- kneve. net. their contents—
he came to ask for them that the House 'might be
Thoroughly in possession of the nature of the proceedings.
In the year 1811 there stood in the Chancellor's paper, 114
'-eauhes—the year in which the Ilon. Member's Committee
-is* granted. There were 114 causes set down, 35 np-
;
agether amounting to 213. Then, with all the assist-
sience the Chancellor had had, there were now in the
'Kluiricellor's paper three hundred and twenty-six causes,
forty-four appeals, thirteen exceptions and demurrers, and
forty.nine rehearings, and further directions. From this
he thotightehe had 'a right to say the Court had' gained
nothing. After he had been persevering for'-seventeen,
eighteen, or nineteen years, to have the proceedings of this
Court corrected, he had not got one step forward, becauee
the Judge who sat in the Court of Chancery was a political
Judge, connected with party, and governed by party feelings.
Whatever the Hon ' Gentleman's own political opinions
were, he had an utter abhorrence of a Judge being a
political' judge, 'and . he . believed from his heart that
the business of the Court -of Chancery could never be
carried on for the benefit Of hie Majesty's subjects, unless
tome court of equity were established such as, when the
Seals were in commission, having a Judge totally uncon-
nected with any thing like political views.—(Applause.)
Such a commission, in all probability, would not be corn-
,posed of the immediate servants of the Crown, nor in-
Silenced by it. Of the advantages which he anticipated
' from such a coulee, he could give, he thought, a striking
eiemplification. Mauy years ago, when he himself was a
young man practising at the Bar, the seals were in com-
mission; and the commission was composed of these
Judges—the Lord Chief Justice Eyre, of the Common
Pleas, a man of the utoseconsurnmate ability ; Mr. Justice
Ashhurst, and lilt. Justice Wilson. Under these Com-
missioner!, the business of Chancery. proceeded with ra-
pidita, and to the general satisfaction of the public. So
the case:femained• until the late King's Government ad-
vised him to give the Seals to Lord Loughboreugh. Be-
fore his Majesfy could be persuaded to take them again into
his own hands, he caused inquiry to he made as to what
business remained to be discharger by the- CominiSsion ;
and to this inquiry Lord Chief Justice Eyre returned, that.
had he and his fellow Commissioners not been sent for, for
another hour and a half, there would have remained not
one cause for judgment, and one only set down for hear-
ing. If this motion- of his required any fairthee. confirma-
tion, lie should find it in the case' of Lord Loughborough.
When that individual wasrLord:ChiefJustiee of the Court
-of-Common Mai, sitting with Mr.' Jaiitice Heath and Sir
'eptorge ?area, no Judge ever gave more signal. eatisfactiod
An_going- through the business of his. Court; but in a
ssingle,day he might be Sairte have lost the high repute:
-44orr he had acquired. • When he accepted the Seel., he got'
[ mixed. up in political matters ; his mind was turned to
i the concernment: of 'party broils, and he became; in the
:strictest'sense of. the words, a political or party man. .When he gained the Seals he lost himselG It - was per-
iettly evident,' Won! theinereasioe ratio .in which the bu-
i.lnes- s avliich came within the furisdicte.'onof Chancery
'was going on, that sinless it were constituted anew, it,
'would be impossible for it' Light 'through its causes.—
As the Court was -ref preieist'eefistituted,_ he was perfectly
'esellsfieSl that it.. Was corupeteut for 'any men to hares',
another during any length of -line;
e
'-and expensivePrOeee(Kngs.:. 'The case of •
"
heurentiouethon'the 'Brown and De
,I'asteti" whichi ule e:eeeese, woah illustration- of, these preee‘diotie.
""ritY of a Counsel
and a
.proof, that unless borne additionaLpower Wait. '
green to the
• the.trieka.'Of the practitioners;. t' ' • ',Court, to restrain , , , . p e itioners, no relict
vo•-itrti be: afforded ti -the suitor. . In "Brown V. lit.
~- - Billled been amended and -re-aniend :d •
-lastet," A 1- . t ~. and a
Supplemutal Bill . ,
had been added, and then a re-arneuded
• I Bill, all of which - had been answered • and
Supplementa ,
heard, and yet the cause remained undetermined. - In
18'16, an action was commenced by the plaintiff; but in
consequence of the absence of a material witness abroad, the
trial was, at the request' of the defendant, postponed. ' lii
1819, the Vice-Chandlor granted a further delay; hut the
Lord Chancan., upon being applied to,' reversed the order
of the Vice-Chancellor. The defendant, upon this, turned
round, and declared with indignation, that he would net
be so tricked; that he did not care a farthing for thaerti
Chancellor, mid that be would keep the plaintiff for the

next 10 years in the Coin% and out of his money, and and here he must say of that Noble and Learned Lord,
perhaps for his life, or until he was totally ruined. It was' that from the time of his elevation to his present situa-
now 1828, and the cause was still pending ;so that the tai:- tido, lea. had . beetoWed the most laborious attention, and
fendant bad kept his ward:;ele(lfear.)—After stating that had exhibited the utmost zeal in the discharge Cif the d'atiee
the inthiber of folios of the bills in this cause amounted, in of-his office. "
two years, to 1,497, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman went i -
on to observe, that when other. expedients were exhausted, ,
4st.lar;::l-eS:ocrpeostatrpyonPeEaEnyL d lies
cia
us
sosfi
oonpoi nT f
he
e, thatquestion
i s
tito
nw
ra L
pe verye.
the defendant's solicitor actually attempted to gain time,
by melting a dead man a party to the suit.—(Hear, hear, tin; the Court of Chancery until the papers moved for by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been produced. So
and a laugh.)—When the solicitor Was reproached_
With this proceeding., he admitted he knew that,'4 Costa
r;iiiivetiipie:fLotiiiirclipiliatic,lielilzolit frh4om
hihdartadaill4n4doinrietttil
tiith;
was eked Sni'n years ago ;fi tint attG.l4li lie in 'acid.," Said err - --
it -'"
- ';
fifty '
..ouse, that was his present intention to issue or
hee-friiimpheiiifi, "ite 'O3lll live in my hill."—(A:laugh.) • ' 'ea ' • '
sixty. orders fount on the recommendations of the Com-
till's bill of tEe dead man, after serving the purpose of its
author for four or five months, was of course ordered to be
mission. In his (Mr. Peel's) opinion, it was better to
taken off the file ; but the parties had then recourse to the '
look forward to far furs amelioration, than to revive the
expedient of making the assignees a party to the suit, al- discussions to - 'which the Report of the Commiesion bad
though the commission of bankruptcy had l,?eettstlPdri 1 gleen rise. Thare taae -olie Mattel' cf ghat iinietahce in
This bill, in the name of tye,a6Sitti4's, ,ed, til; ! tlA.'e Fr,... ala4.'a rr:ed. dentieman's . speech on which he
''''''''' z""t"aglY'LWould not at 'present touch, namely, the expediency of di-
tiled; and the nalate evea now in Court ; but although
the
'all 'Vesting the Lord Chancellor of all political character, and
these Vete, and Many more appeared in the progress of
, Ofconfinieg him to his duties as an Equity Judge. Whea
suit, the solicitor who had lent himself to such practices
was still upen the Rolls of the Court.—(Hear, ther it was not desirable that there should be in the Cabi-
hear. hear.) net an officer of great judicial importance ; and if desirable
His name had 'not been struck off, although all the shifts
icient pioo that whether it would be advantageous that that officer should
and evasions were known to the, COUr t and the tesorldeee.
be g
(Hear, silhe "is le* elqatik than the Lord Chancellor, Weiiqtitse-
-hear,) This ttea a lf realer tibici on which le WoEld not then touch. r.tor Would he
poivers ought, to Ito given to de judffe„ for the.purpose of,
eay a word on the subject -of separating the Bankruptcy
• speeding the business of the Court. A.te, 'observing, that from the Chancery jiiiisdiction. The Confession of the
all thc, legal ability, 4 Sir ?John Leach could not prevent I Hon. and Learned Gentleman with respect to the Conopli-
the liesineita etflhe Court froM accumulating so as to render I cation of the business imposed iipon the Load Chancellor,
it ihepossible that a cause could be heard in less than nine- l'Relet flee impossibility that any one Mali 'could satisfactorily
or twenty months, the Hon.. Gentletnredeclai•ed I get through It, would at least serve to acquit his Noble and
his conviction, that it was in the *min. ',4f 414 execu- Learned Friend by whom that high situation had lately
toe Who - did -oat thb'ette io confess assets, to keep a been held of the charges which had been brought against'
leabetee !" ~.a. vi- h
isMoney for full seven years.---tat 1
k -.ear./ i. him. He mentioned this in justice to one to whom justice
there was a case to which he wasnowabout to allude, upon I had hitherto not been done.
Which there was no probability of a final decision being
•Afr .
given before 1830. The case was " Green and Jaehotee' ' ori'ofCt . BANKES. denied that the bileitteee of th:e
and the matter in dispute. related ):.) a be'rjuest made to a P 3 •
.Chancery was inereasing,:and protested- against
Charitye ' "
.A_ bill .713 filed, first in 1816, against the 'diction..
the separation of the bankruptcy .from the equitable juris-
riltree's. tbe will ; this bill was answered ; leave was
afterwards granted to amend the original bill ; then there Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said a few words in reply. All
that he was desirous of was, that the Court of Chancery
was a rejoinder, and subpoenas issued for other parties as • "
'defendants to'the rejoinder. The'
at
boughcl
for further directionaeelt w'lit . various other'
lie 6ti iitowafir. .shotitllley i lsced n suck a start that jtietice should be dont.
to . its suitors. He .felt most strongly that the system re-
-stagtesof prafee'drnk, such as directions to .find the next of quire& some remedy; and he should never rest satisfied
kin--.to give an account of the amount of property, &c. until that remedy was furnished.
These proceedings • Were scattered over, at The motion was then agreed to.
and occurred
IRISH ADMIRALTY COURT.
several times during the years 1819, 1821, 1828, and , , . . (viii Sir A fe4e peefatoty obeereltiotie feoni Sir JOHN
1825 ; and were now arrived at 1828, *abet re de- - After ' ' •
cision either being 'given, Or iikely ii Ica given, upon a case fiEWPORT, an account was ordered to be.laid before the
House -of the Arrears of Business in the Court of Ad-
which wet td 'plain that almost a child—that the merest
miralty in Ireland, of the number of daya they haeriet to
&Weller in the law, might be able to give a judgment inue-
diately upon it. ' The Hon. and Learned Gentleman next transact business during the last six years, &c. Alio an
Account of the Warrants that . had been issued by the said
proceeded to advert to the late Chancery Commission, whose
report was now theown aside, and literally laughed at. Court, &c' lib t; • ti, • *; ' • '
C RII ttg Or IRELAID.
To Mr. Robert Smith's nomination to. that Coiernittee hi - -•- ' ' 4. 4 . ,
would have no objection: He *ea, he believed, a very '
Sir J. isittVPORT then moved for an Accofint of all
Chuech Rates levied in Ireland, from the year 1817, with
• 1-1011...Ltatne'd tintleman ; hut his practice Was principally
ib thdia. Then there was Dr. Lushington, brought from ' their application tti the building and repairing of Churches,
the civil law—why, he had to learn his business anew. It and to other purposes.—Ordered to be produced.
was usual, in the appointment of Committees of that . SUPPLY—.:REPORT.
,
House, to appoint as members those with whom any The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER moved
measure originated. But in the instance of Cie Chancery the better of the bay for bringing by this Report:
Commission this practice had been departed from. Masters Mr. HUME objected to its being brought up. lie
in theakeiy, and various persons connected with the Court, said, that he had last night objected to the passing of the
*ere appointed, bUt they all said let us not have that vote in the Committee, on the ground 'that there had not
litigious disputant character, Michael Angelo Taylor.— been laid before the House a full account of the services of
(Much laughter.)—Then there was Mr. J. Williams—he the year. As he had then done sowithout effect, he now
'proposed measures, relating to this subject, to Parliament; wished to re-state theta. The Honotirable Secretary for
he made excellent speeches, and filibataed ample qualifications the Admiralty had last night attempted to vindicate the
"Of knotededge ffir being a member of this Commission ; yet Propriety of granting away the public money. without
him *as not included in this Commission. Lord Eldon, it notice, on the ground of a sixteen or eighteen years' pre-
'appealed, did not take the Chair at any of the Sittings of onient. He (Mr. Hume) could not admit the propriety
the Commission, but then he sat by; and there could be of resorting to the authority of precedent to sanction
•.no doubt buthie presence and his counsel had great weight abuses. He now called on Ministers to state what reduc-
' -Or the reeomnientlations which proceeded from the. Corn- tions they intended to make in our establishments, and
mission. He would now call attention to the wise retort) • if they did not 'deign to make any
.reduction how they
mendation of Lord Bacon ; who, after he had accepted the proposed to provide for the. expense. It was pro-
Great Seal, made a speech at thel taking of his place in Posed to vote 30,000. men now, for the service of the
'Cliancity, which contained' four propositions, cone- Navy, on the same scale as_leet year. He deprecated the at-
prising a recommendation which he hoped to see tempt under the existing circumstances of the country. Last
adopted. The first duty which Lord Bacon de- night he had not pressed his opposition to the Speaker's
leaving the chair, .because it was understood Ministers
dared he had to perform was, " to give an Account to
the King of his commandment." That. great man- then would give satisfactory explanations in Committee. No
proceeded to statee--" The King's charge, which ie my explanation) however, had been given. On the contrary,
lantern, rested upon four heads:.-The fieSt was, that I the House was told that they had nothing to do with the
should contain the jurisdiction of the Court within its true establishments of the country. If Ministers intended to
acid due litnitS, without swelling or excess ; second, that reduce the Army at ,the same time that they kept up
I should think the putting of the Great Seal to Letters Pa- the strength of. the :Navy, he might feel disposed to ap-
tent Was not a matter of course after precedent warrants, prove of their intention, but no pledge of that kind had
but that I should take it to be.the maturity and fullness of been given. Ministers should explain to the House why they
the King's intentions ;" the third point was that to. which required 30,000 Men for the Navy at a time when we were
he (Mr. T.) was desirous of calling the attention of the at peace with the whole world. The Hon. Member then
Hoirsea--it was, "that 'I should retrench all unnecessary' proceeded to review the state of our establishments from
delays, that the subject might find that he did enjoy some the year 1792 downwards.to, the present-time)• and drew a
remedy against the fainting Of the soul and against the con- favourable contrast between the comparative'lightneas of
the - public burdens during these two periods. - He:, corn-
suinption of his means and estate, which was speedy jus-
lice." The fiiiirth lecad was, "that justice might p,„ plained that so far from keeping our expenditure within our
income, we were outrunning it, and concluded by express-
with as easy a charge as might. be, and that those same
ing his opinion that it was absolutely necessary either to re-,
btambles that grow ' about justice, of needless chare and
duce our outlay, to impose new taxes, or to incur a fresh
expense, and all manner of exaction, might be rooted out,
so far as might be." In the same speech, Lord Bacon burden of public debt.
pronounced concerning speedy justice, "I am resolved that Mr. J. W. CHOKER said, that the Honourable Mem-
.my deCree shall come speedily, if not instantly, after the her bad not accurately stated what had fallen from him
hearing and my signed judgment pronouneed." This was (Mr. Croker) in the Committee of Supply last night...—.
an advantage which the suitors iit the Court of Chancery What he bad stated was .not in relation to the expences, the
were not at present much accustomed to. He wished that vote, or establishments, _but solely, te the form. of notice
the Right Hon. Gentle Man (Mr. Peel) would turn his upon the notice.booka the,. form of .the present supplies
attention to this subject. The principles laid down and having been observed for nineteen years. So farfrom Go-
reconimendecl by Lord Bacon would be a sufficient vernment intending to keep up the present scale of este-
guide to his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Peel) He blishment, the vote was proposed for only six months,
hoped that, under the direction of. these principles, we which was a proof that Ministers contemplated a reduction,
should see the due observance of that impartial awarding of and to the extent that circumstances would justify. The
justice which was laid down in Magna Charts, " Nulli vote implied that the subject was to be kept open for the
vendemus, milli negabinzus aut difireremus rectum eel Finance Committee. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had
Justitiam."--7Tbere was one other subject connected with stated,. with approbation, that, in 1817, the establishment
this question to which he was desirous to advert; namely, of the Navy had amounted to only 19,000 men ; but he had
the continuance of attaching jurisdiction in bankruptcy to then made more violent speeches against that establishment
the Court of Chancery. There were many reasons which than what he had this Session made upon the subject.
rendered this jurisdiction in bankruptcy unnecessary to be Mr. HUME rose and said, "I beg the Honourable Gen-
attached to the Court of Chancery. It was not originally tleman's pardon. I was not in the House then."--a(Loud
connected with the office of Lord Chancellor. Formerly laughter.)
it resided in the Lords of the Treasury. The Honourable Mr. CHOKER :—This mattered not,—(laughter)—for
and Learned Gentleman then stated, that he would perse- the Hon. Gentleman had entertained the House with such
vere in the labours which he had so long prosecuted, with speeches before that period.
the view of separating the present unnecessary connexion Mr. HUME said he never did before the year 1817.--
subsisting between a jurisdiction in Chancery and the office (Laughter.)
of Lord Chancellor. He concluded by moving for " a Re- Mr. CROKER :—He begged pardon ; but the Hon.
turn of all the Appeal Causes set down for rehearing, and Gentleman had made so many Finance speeches, that it
for further directions, before the Lord Chancellor, the was impossible to remember when they were delivered.—
Pilaster of the Rolls, and the Vice-Chancellor, on the first Not a single Naval Estimate had escaped the Honourable
day of Hilary Term. Also, the Petitions in Bankruptcy, . Membei'S censure. If commerce spread itself into ,new
set down for hearing on the first day of Hilary Term." channels, the British merchants would require a larger
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that he had no naval force for its protection. Out 'of the 30,000 men
objection to the motion, as without the information sought voted, more than 20,000 were employed abroad. England
for, it would be impossible for the House to form a judg- never had a less disposable force at home. . The system of
meat upon the measures which. the Hon. MeMber had it the country had always been, to keep guard-ships at home,
in contemplation to submit. - . • and it was by this meanie that, the country was recently able
Mr. FERGUSON did not concur in the expediency of . to send its troops to Portugal with such rapidity. If the
separating the jurisdiction in Bankruptcy from the Court Committee were called open ,eo vote the establishment for
of Chancery. He was sure that if the jurisdiction did not the whole year, Ministers would hare been prepared to give
rest with the Lord Chancellor, the parties who had such the details, but the vote was foronly six months.. :
large interests frequently at stake would not be satisfied Mr. BERNAL said,' that the Estimates being voted for
with any less than an appeal to the first judicial authority only six months, had perfectly satisfied him ; but he had
in the country. He did not concur with the Honourable been by no means satisfied with the assertion of the Right
and Learned Gentleman. in what had fallen from him re-. Hon. Member. for Liverpool, that the projected Finance
apecting' the Report of the Chancery Commission. It Committee had nothing legally, and would have nothing
should be remembered that the inquiry of the Commission effectually, to do with the amount of the Naval or Military
was limited. It Was limited to inquire into the practice of. Establishments. An Hon. Member on the tiller side had
the Court. Powers were not entrusted to it by Perlis- distinctly told them, that they were to have nothing to do
ment to make such extensive changes as were proposed and 'with existhigeestablishments. .The Hon. Member - then
recommended by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. arena on to discuss the state `of Finanee, and observed that
Some of the suggestions containedinthe propositions of the. it required.not a Mere:salve btit a caustic: ...
Commission, would be, in his opinion, very salutary, if . Mr. Secretary PEEL, after the appeal made to him,
they were adopted. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman felt it necessary to say' a few words. The lia'stimateanow
proceeded to specify the recommendation of the Controls- under discussion were made out under the AdMinistration
psion, which greatly abridged the process in filing bills, and of Lord Goderich; "they wereaprepired With-4 view alike
in the replication given to them. Another salutary ling- to the service. of the Navy, and the economy Whicti'the ,ge-stion of the Commission, was one which would prevent country required. • Every reduction had been Made, 'which
,the multiplication of' appeals in the first instance to the was found compatible with the- 'public 'service .--(Hear, •.
More-than this he Was not at the present moment
Lord Chancellor, r.tul then from the Lord Chancellor to he,,,..)
. , -
prepared to say, - The appointment of a Finance Corn-
the House of Lords. The Report of the Commisdon re- '
commended, the allowance of a ria,ht of appeal to a party inittee, which would take place in the course of three
-
once; and •geire him the election ef the Lord Chan-' days, would afford him an opportunity of entering more
celtore or of the House of Lords ; but he., certainly did fuller into details.
not approve of permitting the circuitous resort of a , ee
~
double appeal; which entailed such vexatious expense and 1r Mr. MABERI.Y objected tothe expression of the Mu.
delay.' Theie who had duly examined the state of the e ent. Der, (Mr. Huskisson), thafe". the. inquiry was not to
Court of. Chancery, must be fully aware that an accession go the extent of public establishments." ,
of 'Ridges woe indispensible to the accomplishment of the Secretary , _,, assuredtheHouse,.
.n
Mr. PEEL
jtesty s•teovermitent meant to give the Comimttre. iF. quet-
business which pressed upon it. Sueb was the unequivo-
was I'L;f:ntnreel'ltFeoussefoa';obilli7tylBud6te..ablylail7-tr.9e67;rnbe'del7granted h
cal opinion of -mailer- corn persons. The Way in to(
Hear I ine4anrce
which Appeals were heard in the House of Lords,
i , he had no objection io)
most reprehensible. . Any one who:went in to witness the
enter more into butlu
as his motiOn was fixed fur
proceedings, would find the Lord Chancellor alert enough
certainly,. but aitiroiiiided by two, or three old Lords, half Friday, •he thoughte it''wou'lei be most advisable to dela;
• entering upon the subject until thee.
asleep,
and paying little or no attention to what was going . .. ,
the
Secretary
Mr. BERNAL had distinctly understood on. It was satisfactory to learn that the Lord Chancellor
had lately Siren notice that he would hear all the Appeals for the Colonies (Mr. Huskisson) to say, that the Finance
Co. Committee were to have noth• ~
am to do with the extent of
twin Scotland. Last year, the utmost uncertainty pre-
vailed with respect to the judgments that it was likely the Naval
Mr. H. GURNEY,
would be pronounced _upon those Appeals. On one day After a few words from .
Mr. MONCK if theyresent system continued, it
and Military Establishments.
they were heard by the Master of the Rolls; on another said,
by the Lord Chief Baron'of the Ea-chequer ; the one very would, he feared, lead to a dreadful crisis.
active, the other very profound ; and both excellent Judges, Sir 13. MARTIN was glad that this discussion had
but differing in their opinions. There they sat, and it taken place, as it had afforded opportunities for explanae
was quite impossible for any man to anticipate what would Lion. The fact was, that the Naval Establishment was
be their decision. All scandal of that kind was now, how- out of funds, and hence the present vote.
ever, put an end to. by the notice of. the Lord Chancellor ; Mr. Alderman WAKTHMaPrethoold not exercise his

' duty to. the public if he voted a single shilling of the pub-
lic money before he knew whether the Finance Commit-
tee was composed of men w_holeserYed the confidence of
te country.
•
After d A:* ,torrid from is r;• ROBERTSON,
Mr. Secretary PEEL repdafed that the proposed Finance
C;ommittee was to have every facility enjoyed fy atiy ether
Committee of the same deseription. - • • • .
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said a few words in support
of the motion.
fIIbMPSON distinctly. remembered the words of
the Honourable Member for. I.43+efpool (Mr, Hnskisson),
and lie appealed to those about him as to his turretineo, -
when he described those ivords to be " that the" Finance
Committee should not go to the extent of existing establish-
It was somewhat singular that one Minister should
6orne demob ttd say Utte thing; and another thing.
Mr. Secretary PEEL had made no ,ettfemeirt on the
subject. • - • • • •

Mr. THOMPSON said that statements had been made,
which, unless they resorted to the twisting used upon a late
occasion; could bear but one interpretation. He would now
say one word upon the ansiver which the Right Honour-
able Secretary opposite had given to the Honourable Mem-
be. ter Aberdeen, ana he-must declare, that a more tttaat,
factory dr a ftiorii bepobritical speech he had never beau'.
The Right Honourable Gentleman Stated, that he asked
the both of a grant for six months, heedtid'd there would
be an opportiinity to enter into the discussion of the
iixtent of the meaiis limper is s?apply the amount of the
grant. The .staternent varied from cue made the other
night by another Right Hon: Gentleman (lie not
whether the Right Hon. Secretary's superior or not),
who then declared, that " in such cases - as the present, :it
was usual for the House to 'repOse'a*Certain confidence in
the responsibility of Ministers, and to consider that they
that, be the Judges of what force,,, under existing circum-
stances, the country required.“ the Hon. Secre-
tary now told them, that they could not do Wilt tewei•
than at presenta declaration which left the HouSe no
hope of reduction. Now:he thought that statement was
founded in mistake, 'and that reduction could take place,
find {hit withdut danger. He could not but think that
the argument of the Right /la. edietEtr7 in favour of
keeping up the present body of men was veiy.iiiisaiisfac-
tory. In the first place, that Right Hon Secretary ap-
pealed to the experience of all'comMercial Men, to bear
him out in' the assertion, that there were calls from all
parts of the world fof ships to protect the commerce of
this country. He knew how unfashionable it was to quote
the example of America in this country, and IN: 'fakir
it was to cite the example of a Republic in that House;
but he should not be deterred from stating• the fact, that
to protect the whole commerce of America, there were but
twenty-eight vessels, and these were maintained at an ex-
pellee of not more than one-eighth or one-ninth of our
own. He appealed to all commercial men connected with
the American trade, to bear him out in the statement of
that fact; and if it was, ahe believed it, true, then the
calls spoken of by the Right Hon. Secretary, for the pro-
tection of our trade in foreign seas, showed that Otrr sys-
tem itself was had, and that the fault lay in that system,
gird not in the want of a number of ships sufficient is afford,
protection.
Mr. Secretary PEEL must apiiiai to the House whether
from any thing he had stated there was any reason firr the
allegation of a difference of opinion between, him and tfit
Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies. He did not re-
collect,that that Right Hon. Gentleman bad said "that a
knance Comtiiittee had nothing to do with considering
what ought to be the Naval arid Military Establishments
of the country, and he therefore did not km* What con-
tradiction existed between them. As to himself, he should
only remark 'upon the Hon: Member's questions, by ex-
pressing his hope that the House would not deem hire(act-
ing disrespectfully, if he declined going into any explana-
tion as to the nature of the Finance Committee until Friday
next. This much, at least, he might say,-that no linaita-
tionswould be put on the power of the Committee beyond
those which guided the Committees in 1786, 1797, and '
1801.

Mr. MABERLY said, that if the Right Hon. Secretary
did not recollect the expressions referred tit by the Hon.
Member. for Dover, he (Mr. Maberly) did ; and he could
assure the Right Hon. Secretary opposite, that the Right
lion. Gentleman had distinctly said, that a Finance Com-
mittee had nothing, whatever to do with the extent of the
establishments of the country, and he had; therefore, asked
the House to go into the money.vote without entering on
that discussion. Now, however, the Right Hon. Secretary
stated that which is-as, in substance at least, different front
the former statement of his Hon. Colleague.' On the lass
night the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool had. been,
pressed again and again on the subject, but had remained
silent. - The* Right lion. Secretary hid been pressed on
the same subject in the same manner, and had then ob-
served the same Conduct as his Hight Hon. Colleague ;
,bitt
to-night he had stated a little more, but little as it was; it
was important; and if the same statement had. been made
before, much of the present diseussion might have he4ti
saved. He was satisfied that the statement then 'made' l?y
the Right Hon. Secretary, that the
,powers .of the Com-
mittee were not to be limited by those of former Com-
mittees, and be should have been doubly pleased had that
declaration been made in the presence.of the Right Hon.
Secretary's Colleague, so as to receive his express concur-
rence. There was one other question on which he wished
to say a few words to . the Right Hon.. Secretary. He
trusted that on Friday the names Of the Committee would
be pointed out to the House, in order that they inight-have
some means ofjudginuf the Committee by the names of
which they saw it Was intended to be composed.. He re-
commended that the Committee should have power to
probe the whole system of expenditure to the bottom, in the
same manner as was proposed to. be done in 1817. --As
the Right lion. Secretary had now taken a different view
of the subject from that which was stated the other night
by his Right Hon. Colleague, he (Mr. Maberly) hoped that
his Hon. Friend would withdraw all opposition to the mo-
tion, trusting that the conduct of the Right Hon. Secretary
would'be as frank and manly as his explanation had been.
Mr. WARBUR'TON did 'not agree with the Hon.
Member who spoke last, ' the the House -or the country
would be satisfied:with the pledge which the names of the,
Ctimmittee afforded; -He should-look to the powers pro-
posed to be given to the Committee, not to the names of its
Members. • -

Mr: SPRING RICE should not have said-one word in
this discussion, had not the declaration as to the powers
that were to be given to the Committee appeared to- hini
both vague 'and unsatisfactory. The earlier' powers he
should feel -himself entitled to OppOse, as they excluded
many Subjects of importance, while the later ones embraced
every object that could be devised for any fair purpose of
inquiry. He thanked the Right Hon. Secretary for the
explanation which he had kiven, and he thought the House
would not be of opinion that the discussion which had
been this night entered into was unnecessary. He was con-
vinced, that if the-Finance Committee was intended to do
its duty honestly and fairly, all.expences, civil and Military
most be open to its examination. He was now satisfied,
that, although the word was considered at' present rather
awkward (hear, and a laugh), a guarantee," or-an " un-
derstanding," call it what they would, had been given that
the Committee, should have power to examine into the
causes of the expenditure.
Mr. PEEL stated, with respect to the words of the ie.-
ference to the Committee, the Right Hon. Secretary for the
Colonies had seen them, and entirely approved of them. He
had not referred to the earlier Committees for the purpose
of limiting the powers of the plesent.

The Report was ordered to be brought up.
On the question that this Report be brought up being
moved, •
.Mr. HUMS repeated the arguments he used on the pre-
vious night, relative to the continual increase of our esta••
blishments and our debt; the cheapness with which the
Americans managed their affairs compared with ourselves ;
and the possibility of returning to the state of things ex_
.isting in 1792; • and concluded by moving a resolntion of
great length, expressive of these sentiments, by Way of
amendment to,the motion.

Mr. lILTME stated, that as it was his intention to take
the sense of the House on the principle of the resolution
which he had just put, he would not now divide it.
The resolution was put and negatived.
The original resolution was then Put and carried.
Mr. HUME then Moved, " That it was the duty of
the House, in the present state of the finances of the
country, before passing a vote tor the employment of
10,000 seamen and marines, for the ensuing six months,
to take into consideration whether the peculiar circum-
stances of the country warranted so large a vote, when
it appeared that no more than 16,000 were found to be
necessary in the, year 1792, and no more than 19,000 in
the Wear 1817.
Sir. JOHN \VROTTESLEY should not oppose the
grant under the present circumstances of the country, be-
cause he thought the intention of the Governmest was to
act up to the spirit and letter of the Treaty of July last.
He would, however, hold the Government responsible for
carrying into effect such-measures us would ensure the
safety of the mercantile interests of this country in all parts
of the world.
A Member, whose mune we could not learn, stated,
that the vote was proposed to be limited to six month