The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-16 00:00:00

the petition said the first Minister of the Crown had been
guilty, he (Lord J. Russell), for one, even if he could find
to
no
one else to agree with hies, would give a decided negative
the motion.—(Loud cheers.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD was anxious to say a few
words on this painful subject. He deeply regretted that such
expressions, so insulting to many of his fellow-countrymen, as
those which were to be found in this petition, should have
been used in any petition presented to that House. And even
had it been necessary that the petition should be printed, it
would only have been with the utmost reluctance that he could
have consented to such a motion. He was anxious on the pre-
sent occasion to express these sentiments because nothing could
be more injurious to the opposition to the Maynooth grant than
to have it placed on such grounds. He voted against that
grant because on principle he was opposed to the State esta-
blishing any religion. Ile was as reluctant as any man could
be in that House to oppose that grant on principles insulting to
his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, and he, for one, would vote
against the printinc, of the petition.—( Hear.)
Mr. LIDDELL'wouId not have troubled the House if it had
not been for the charge made against them by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dundalk, of unnecessary squeamishness in refusing to
print this petition. The Hon. Member for Dundalk had alluded
to the Coronation Oath, and as the oath had been alluded to,
he (Mr. Liddell) would read it to the House.—( The Hon.
Gentleman here read the Coronation Oath to the House. )
Now, he would ask the House if there was anything in the
Coronation Oath at all resembling the expressions made use
of in that petition? He might say that the Hon. Member's al-
liPion to the oath of abjuration was equally unfOrtunate. The
oath of abjuration simply called upon a Member to abjure that
doctrine which said that any person or prince who was excom-
municated or deprived of power by the Pope might be destroyed
or murdered by any of the subjects. Wo ild they pretend to
say that that doctrine was not injuriouss nd damnable. If it
were true, he should like to know what sec rity there would be

to the life of the sul.jects of her Majesty..
Mt, REDINGTON said that he was still of opinion that
her Majesty did declare that the worship of the Virgin Mary
was damnable and idolatrous—now that was the doctrine of the

Roman Catholics.
51r. T. DUNCOMBE said, that the object the House
had in requiring a Member to give notice of his intention to
have a petition printed was, to induce that Member to
make a notice of motion for some particular day. If a spe-
cific notice of motion were not necessary, he might have all
the petitions printed without the intention of founding a
motion thereon. If the Hon. Member fir Knaresborough

made a specific notice of motion, the House could not reftise
the printing of the petition, and if the petition contained
anything calumnious er libellous, it were better to have it printed
for the use of the Members of the House only. The motion of
his Hon. Friend behind him was the best course that could be
taken for publicity, if that were his object. He took the best
course to find these objectionable passages on his breakfast
table tomorrow. Some kind friend from Dublin had favored
him (Mr. Duncombe) with a copy of this petition, and he
did not consider it of much importance, or likely to do much
harm.—( Hear, hear.) There was a public feeling that the
right of petitioning had been encroached upon, and they ought
to be very cautious in refusing the printing of any petition.
If the Hon. Member gave a specific notice that he would
found a motion on the petition, he had a right to have it
printed.
Mr. FERR AND said that it was not his intention to make
a distinct motion on that petition ; he would therefore with-
draw his motion.—( Laughter.)
Dr. BOWRING presented petitions from Dissenting con-
gregations meetingin the towns of Blackburn and Oldham, in
favour of the grant to Naynooth.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented numerous petitions against
the grant.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN and Mr. COLLETT presented similar
petitions.
Lord WORSLEY presented above sixty petitions from
various Vaces in England against the grant.
Mr. BRIGHT presented many petitions of a similar cha-
r,.cter, and, among them, one from the Society of Friends at
Wi,Jitcester.
Lord POLLINGTON and rtlr. FEARAND presented similar
petitions.
Mr. A G LIONRY presented three petitions from as many
parishes in Coekermouth, against the grant.
The following Hon. Members &so presented petitions having
a like object in view :—Lord Claude Hamilton, Mr. John
Stewart Wortley, Mr. W. Compton, Sir John Tyrrel (who said
that one of his petitions was signed by a great many ladies, who
were teachers in Sunday Schools), Sir G. Gore, Mr. Spooner,
Birmingham ; Sir George Staunton, from places in tramp-
shi,e ; Mr. Holdsworth ; Mr. Wiltshire, from places in liar-
mouth ; Mr. Fuck, from Devonshire ; Mr. Masterman, fr4m
places in the City of London ; Mr. Woodhull, from Norfolk ;
Mr. E'tco't, from Oxford ; Colonel Sibthwp. from various
parishes in Lincolnshire; Mr. Pattison, from one or two places
-in the City of London ; Mr. Sharman Crawford, from Roch-
dale; Mr. Entwisle ; Mr. C. Berkeley, from Cheltenham ;
;:or. flew itt, from :Monmouth ; Sir W. Clay, from Mile-end
and Stepney ; Mr. Bankes, from Dorsetshire; Mr. 0. Dun-
tio:n Yorkshire ; Mr. Ward ; Lord Clive ; Mr. Tolle-
in.iche ; Mr. Evans, from pla •cs in D.frbysliire and Notting-
hamshire; bird Castlereagh, from Belcast ; Lord Ingostre;
iMr. P. Stewart ; Mr. Hume, from E.sex ; Ltd Ebrington,
fr„ln D eonshire ; Mr. M. Gibson ; and Mr. !Hadley, 120
fro-in varii.us puts of England.
I%IAYNOOTH.

The order of the day f• ,r the second reading of the May-
nooth Endowment Pill having been read,
illaj n- BE ft ESFORD said be generally gave a silent vote.
but thought it right on the present occasion to express his opi-
Mons. He stood before them in a double capacity of an Eng-
replysenta:ive and an Irish Protestant. He disclaimed all
intenticn of any offensive expriesiona towards his Roman
Catholics !elsa subjects, for which he felt a great regard. In
1823, when a young :nue he had been offered a seat in Parlia-
ment, if he would vote against Catholic Emancipation. But
he refused to do so, and remained out of Parliament. Let
him not therefore be called a bigot. There were limits-to con-
ee“ion, and when concession had beefs made to the Catholics
of Ireland, he would ask the House how it had been responded
to? 'fhe Rielat Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
-Horne Depas,.ment had stated that there was a
limit to ccneession ; but it would seem that there was
n ) limit to concession. The motto of the Ministry seemed to
toujours.en avant. As for the question of the compact, he
dereed viat any such existed. He denied that there was any
contract at all with regard to the support of Alaynooth ; but
there wos at the time of the union a tangible and firm contract
with the Established Church, which was but little regarded.
Had not ten bishops been swept away, and was net the in-
come of the ministers of the Established Church diminished
ore-fourth?—(Hear, hear.) This was a new measure altoge-
ther—it was a measure for an endowment for the first time pro-
poi; d, acrd he saw no special reasons why the Roman Catholic
religion should be emitswed, which would not equally apply to
the endowment of other sects. On that principle he would
oppose this grant. He did not think the Parliament and peo-
ple of England would consent to .give an increased grant to
Afar-tooth, which had made such bad use of the means
already at its disposal.—( Hear, hear.) He who was acquainted
with Ireland knew that those who came out of Maynoeth de-
voted themselves to the propagation of agitation, instead of
the dissemination of religion and loyalty. The spiritual head
of the Roman Catholic religion was lately obliged to interfere
to check their proceedings, while the Right Hon. Baronet was
about to give them increased means of mischief. Both the
one and the other put forward pretensions to infallibility ; and
though the one checked agitation, and the other was inclined
to foster it, he could only reconcile their rival claims by sup-
posing (being permitted, as an Irishman, to commit a bull),
that both were infallibly right. He also opposed this measure
because ise feared it was but the beginning of further endow-
ment, and the payment of the Roman Catholic priests. The
men who had obtained a higher degree of education,
and mere refined feelings, should be supported from
other sources than those from which they derived
their support at present. That was not his opinion—non
nzeus hic sermo. It was the general opinion in the House.
But from what sources were the Roman Catholic priests to be
paid ? The people of England would not submit to any further
taxation for this purpose, even if the present measure were
forced upon them.--(Hear.) A general election would soon
take place, and the people of England, though they might ab-
uoain from vituperation for the past, would, however, exercise
a vigilant caution with respect to the future.—(Hear, hear.)
When other means of paying the Roman Catholic clergy failed
them, he feared they would then have recourse to the Esta-
blished Church for the means, for it seemed that expediency
was now better than principle.—( Hear, hear ) Here, indeed,
they had scene-shifters of a character that had seldom been
equalled ; for now those who had brought it forward, having
found that it was damned on one stage, would new have it re-
enacted upon another with unbounded applause as the " Rival
Catholic.' —( Loud laughter and cheers from the Opposition.)
Besides the objection he had stated, there were minor ones,
with regard to the time and mode of bringing forward
this measure to which he wished to allude. With regard to
the time, there never was a time when, it was well known, the
Bill could be brought forward with greater facility by those
who had introduced it than the present, for now that party
were under no control whatever. Another objeetion to the
time was, that the Government had introduced it at .a period
when they bad refused all aid for scriptural education in Ire-
land—( Cheers)—for the Government had refused the appeal
of the Venerable, l'rimate of Ireland for the means of educating
the Protestants of Ireland in the faith in which they believed..
—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) He main-
tained that the petitions presented against the grant to May-
noeth were fully equal to the number presented in former
times against the educational clauses of the Factory Bill. That
was withdrawn, and he trusted this would also be withdrawn.
They were told that these petitions emanated from agitation,
and ought not to be attended to. He denied the fact, he re-
probated the inference, and he trusted the people would know
who rejected their petitions. No part of the Established
Church had more reason to complain of disappointed hopes and
blighted expectations than the Protestants of Ireland. The
Protestants of Iseland knew that it was a sound maxim of re-
ligion that whom the Lord loveth lie chastenetb, but they felt
that to apply that principle in politics, and say " whom the
Premier loveth he
theory, chasteneth," would b most disagreeable in
and oppressive ja
dis-
memberment practice.—( Laughter.) The dis-
of the empire. He
hMavnooth would materially assist the stability
adHe-atarinsted, that though he had spoken plainly
and openly,
from him in 4 nothing uncourteous to those who dif-
feredvernment were bringing
opinion but he did consider that the Go-
principles forward a measure diametrically op-
posed to the best
od governs 'ant.— Hear.
Air. BYNG wished to say° ah.few word I, and they would
be but a few on this
H hail felt in-
terested in the Roman subject.
last fifty-seven years, and he could Ireland
arllowlitehlanis opportunityd
forthe
non. the question.
to pass without saying a few words
supported this motion, not only on He
what was far nearer to his heart, on rerlit'teligraronlidmis;
hsadans°be*--en
but
(Cheers.) He thought the Catholics :f
plsrei.anodu
that he was
worse governed than any other subjects is
athuat he was
and he could not find in the sacred seri
turope__(Hear)_.
ordered by the great God who had made thruepairaellhe;
ordered by that great God to hate any
dif-
fered from him in religion. There was nothing ofselliste
the Scriptures. He believed that every man had ea righth this
worship God Almighty according to that form which he thought-
would be most acceptable to the great Gad. God Almighty
knew when a man prayed to him aright. He was the searcher
of hearts, and He knew when they were sincere. Sincerity was
what He loved and He would bear with nothing else. He
(Mr. Byng) could not remain in that' House, he
could not, in conscience, retain his vote, if he did
not now give that vote in favour of the Roman
Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that, on, coming to
that House, he was on all questions to think of his fellow-men
and think of them alone. He must not think of self, " And
thank God," continued the Hon. Gentleman, " I can lay my
hand upon my heart, and say that I have never selfishly voted,
or voted in favour of that which I thought contrary to the
happiness and welfare of this great country—never, never,
never." lie was sorry to see in this country so many Pro-
testants of all sects arrayed again t this m 'tion. He remem-
bered well that in former times they were arrayed in great
numbers against a friend of his, Harvey Coombe, who sought
to introduce similar liberal measures. He (Mr. Byng) then
asked the Dissenters, if they voted against the Catholics on
that occasion, what would become of themselves next week ?
He asked them then, if they thought the Church of England
less barbarous to Dissenters than to Catholics? and he found
that, instead of being against him, the Dissenters were altoge-
ther for hint.—(Hear, hear.) The more he thought oflt
the moi.e convinced he was that conciliatory measures
were the best means the Government could adopt
to restore peace to Ireland.—(Cheers.) Let thew consider
who were the Ministers at present, the Duke of Wellington
and Sir Robert Peel.—(Laughter.) Anti no two persons
could dislike this motion worse than the Duke of Wellington

and Sir Robert Peel.—(Continued laughter.) He did not
mean to charge anything against these Ministers, for he was
sure that they thought what they did was for the benefit of
the country.—( Hear, hear.) But when he (M Byng)
thought of the 7,030,000 of his Roman Catholic f •.low-sub-
jects, having no endowment whatever, or at least what was
scarcely worth the name, and compared that paltry rant with
the munificent revenues derived from Ireland for t e support
of the religion of the remaining million of Protesta s, he felt
bound to give his cordial vote in support of this mlt ion. The
venerable Member sat down amid loud cheering.
Colonel VERNER said it was not his intention to have
troubled the House during this debate, but when he
considered the general feeling which prevailed throughout the
country, when he witnessed the pouring in of petitions to
that table, he felt that he should not be properly discharging
his duty as an Irish Member, if he gave a talent vote upon
this question. He could not agree with the opinion expressed
by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark, that
those petitions did not represent the feelings of Le people.
He ( Colonel Verner) had always understood that there were
but two ways in which the voice of the people could retch that
House. One of the modes was by petition, and the other
through their representatives. If different opinions, therefore,
prevailed throughout the country, surely the supporters of
this measure had the same facilities for making their
opinions known as its opponents had. But had
the petitions in favour of the grant borne any proportion to the
petitions against it ? He had himself had the honour of pre-
senting a petition from Belfast against the grant, signed by
thirty-seven ministers ; and he would read to the House the
letter which accompanied it. (The Gallant Member then
read the letter, addressed to himself by the petitioners, in which
they characterised the grant as one most mischievous in ten-
dency and unjust in practice.) He ( Colonel Verner) had
not heard from one Member in that House an argument
worthy of the name, to prove that even this measure was ex-
pedient. He had observed with regret, for some time past,
that in any measure relating to Ireland, the Protestants of that
country were forgotten, as if their claims were not worth the
trouble of investigation. He would tell the House that that
portion of the population had evinced their loyalty under the
most arduous circumstances, and in the most trying times.
He recollected when the Protestant yeomen put down a re-
bellion in Ireland. They should look to the conduct of those
to whom they were now called upon to grant what was called
a boon. He hoped he should have heard something from the
Right Hon. Baronet expressive of a good disposition on the
part of those for whose benefit this grant was now to be made.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Dublin had observed to the
House the agitated state in which Ireland was two years ago,
he might, indeed, have shortened the period, or even have
stated that Ireland was not now in its happiest state. The
House would recollect the expense to which the Government
was put by sending troops to Ireland to suppress the repeal
agitation, and the expense that was contracted in instructing
the law officers of the Crown to take legal proceedings against
the instigators of the agitation. Was there an individual Mem-
Iser of that House who ;said that that body, though differing
with the Right Hon. Baronet in political opinions, yet that they
were desirous of putting down the agitation with him ?
It was no later than lest week that he himself received two
communications from the Repeal Association, calling upon him
to support their principles. He never heard of any disposition
on the part of these people to give up these proceedings at the
time that they were called up 'n to grant a sum of money for the
education of their priests. Supposing that he himself could re-
concile it with his feelings to grant a sum of money for their
support, he did not think that this was the most fit period.
When Mr. O'Connell had received intelligence that this grant
was about to be proposed, he in his speech said, " hurrah for
Peel and repeal." Could there be any doubt that be meant
that it was one step more in favour of repeal. Was there an
Honourable Member in the House who would suppose that that
was not what he meant? This grant would do no good, it
would be ill-received by the Roman Catholics, and it would
excite more suspicion in the minds of the Protestants
of Ireland that they were neglected. The Protestants
of Ireland had continued their loyalty and attachment
to the Crown, and displayed it more particularly on one occa-
sion, which he could not avoid reminding the House of. It
was when a body of men, headed by several of the noblemen
and gentry of both religions, were instrumental in maintaining
the peace of the country ; and yet when it was the wish of the
sovereign that that body should no longer exist, it immediately
dissolved itself. But the time may come when the reunion of
that body may he necessary ; and if they felt themselves
neglected by those who ought to support them, it would not be
surprising if they united to protect themselves.
Mr. HUME said that he was anxious, on so interesting a
subject, to offer his opinion on the measure brought forward by
the Right Hon. Baronet. If anything in the debate could be
more important than another it was the speeeh of the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman who had just sat down, who, from the speech
he introduced, must be considered a fair sp cimen of the Irish
Pretestant. He called upon them to recollec- what had been
the state of Ireland. Ile told then) that he had recollected
yerhaps more than they did of the pr,ceedinga in that
country, and he derailed contests in that country between
Protes ants and Roma, Catholics, rebell'one and the suppres-
sion of those rebellions, and massacres which every Member
must regret to have taken place. But eliat was the policy
laid down, according to the statement of the Riht Hon. Ba-
ronet last year? He said that the first step ton he taken was
to remove the just grounds of complaint uncle- the Ro-
man Catholics laboured, and they would thus erevent the
possibility of these scenes taking plree, year after ear, which
disturbed the peace of the country for the last hallicentury.—
( Hear, hear. ) It was because the Right Hon. Baronet took
that vies that he would support th:s measure. Did not
the Right Hon. Gentleman bring forward the Dissenters' Cha-
pel Bill, which he (11r. flume) sulio. ted throughout ? And
he should say that he looked ban.; at it as a question of great
importance to the country, and would be productive of great
benefits.—( Hear, hear.) He (.fir. flume) was afraid that
the Roman Catholics of Ireland did not look with a proper
feeling on the Catholic Bequests BM. When he examined
Mr. O'Connell on the state of Ireland, he stated that if Roman
Catholics were allowed a partial management of their own
affairs they would be satisfied. He (Mr. Hume) thought that
the Charitable Bequests Bill had a tendency in that way. The
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman told the kight Hon. Baronet
that the Conciliation-hall was still in exisnnee ; but the
course the Right Hon. Baronet had taken was the only one
which could put down that agitation which hid arisen from
the absence of that justice which the Irish had a right to re-
ceive.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for the University of
Dublin took a religious view of the measure; he (Mr. Hume)
did not look upon it in the sane light, and he regretted that a
cry should be raised that the Church was in danger—the " No-
Popery " cry—under the idea that Catholicism could not be
placed on a level with Protestantism; they were exciting the
feelings that existed centuries ago. They ought to take into
consideration the ct anges which had since taken place, anti not
seem to think that any danger could occur from any connexion
with the Pope now-a-days. He believed that no race of men
could exist together with benefit to themselves or to the
Government, unless they were on a perfect equality.
He heard Mr. O'Connell state on those benches, that the best
means to satisfy Ireland was to remove the grounds of com-
plaint; and he (Mr. Hume) held this measure as one of those
steps which tended to remove those grievances complained of.
If they gave the Roman Catholic priests an education which
would enable them to bring up their parishioners in a moral
and religious feeling—if that WI, to be the effect of this pro-
ceeding, he thought that it would be a most important mea-
sure, and productive of great n itional benefits. Some had
complained of the priests as educated at Mavnooth. What
they wondered at was, that with such a_paltry allowance they
were able to bring up men capable of tilling the respectable
situations which parish priests should fill on coming from May-
nooth. Now they should have money sufficient to give them
that education which would empower them to improve their
fd.cks; and on that ground he looked upon the measure as one
of great national benefit. If they looked to other continental
countries, they would perceive that the Government of each
thought it their duty to afford every sect, no matter what were
its tenets, the means of obtaining fit education. In their own
colonies the same principle was adopted, and in India every
class was treated, as to its religious opinions, with the greatest
respect, and it was on account of that spirit of tolerance that
contentment existed.' He would take the occasion to say, that
if they treated India in the same manner as they new treated
Ireland, they would not continue long in possession of
those vast territories in that part of the world.
In fact, the Mahomedans went further than even did the Eng-
lish people towards the Irish, for the Mahomedans were the
very first who came forward to support the Roman Catholics in
India, and on those grounds alone he would say that the Go-
vernment of this country ought to be ashamed to refuse this
act of justice to the Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)
While he was upon this subject he would beg leave to mention
this fact, that in the year 1815 a certain Mahomedan chief
granted a sum of twenty thousand rupees for the education of
the Syrian Indians in the Christian faith.—(Hear, hear.) He
had heard, with surprise and regret, the speech of the Hon.
Member for Oxford; and he felt assured that no liberal man
who had heard it but felt equal regret at hearing that Hen.
Member declare that he would never concur in the payment of
money which should be devoted to the propagation of what he
conceived ;to be error.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member
ought to have reflected a little before he used those words ; for
he was in some measure connected with India, and therefore he
(Mr. Hume) was sorry to think that the Hon. Member had
not learned something of the kindliness of feeling towards his
fellow-man, which his father, in his lifetime, so usefully and
extensively practised.—( Hear, hear.) But after what he
(Mr. Hume) had stated in reference to India, he would say to
this country, look at what a noble example the Paean has set
you, and are you not ashamed of yourselves ?—(Ch:Prs.) He
looked upon the position of Ireland in reference to th. 3 question
to be similar, in some respects, to that of the Christians in
India, and therefore at least as much consideration should be
shown them, in proportion to their relative positions.—( Hear.)
Now let him suppose that Ireland, instead of having been con-
quered two hundred years age, that event took place only last
January, would any man in England propose, as the first mea-
sure towards that country, that all their property should be
taken from them, and the people left without the means of
education ?—( Hear, hear.) They had not done so to Canada
—in fact they had not treated any part of the world belonging
to them in the same manner as they had treated Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) When the returns that had been ordered should
have been laid upon the table of the House, it would be found
that England had been liberal in her grants of funds to every
country dependent upon her, while to Ireland she had been quite
the contrary.—( Hear, hear.) Again, he would contend for it
that this was not a religious question, and that religion had
nothing at all to do with it. He would say that whatever
country England ruled, the people of that country had a right
to expect all the means necessary to do them justice and make
them happy.—( Hear, hear.) It might be regretted that the
Roman Catholics were so numerous ; but that was not the
question ; there they were, and as they contributed their share
towards the support of the State, they should not be kept in a
state of discontent and dissatisfaction.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
if the House did not approve of 'this measure as a step towards
removing their discontent, he would ask what other means did
N ri.n
teey purpose?—(Hear,
be Ireland
gged
hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber had threatened a renewal of those unions of par-
tiese
tdhad
o assumeleng th e
the English Government distracted
Galianthtat country ; but he
y
Officer that if only
justice were done
which they had discharged,nlreland, all such associations would be
quite unnecessary
land totally disreeardei
Cheers.) He would contend for it that
Hear, hear.)
ent had owed a duty to the people of India
for it that much of while they left their duty to Ire-
on the subject ofe squabbling
He would contend
that existed in Ire-
landthe general discontent, then flee Government in which a large
Gtwov:elment should look back,
share
eeligion was owing to the manner
tthhaet
ncoaupeseoplof
been disposed of,
dfeegeraidtatmiounsliand insult, If thatof
the
public property had
acnond, sineueewdhsatystietmwasof,
Ile vital say, then, thatr -ave
denied her,
hear.)
lo.rdiginbafed in a long-
could endure.—( near,
Ire-
land
was an oppressed country. Justice
Hed would a.tk, why
eity
'en
hat had been
and her people had become disturbed I;
nvii:tte.pedurosuf
ethattheinjsuasmtice
e.c—ou(r.seleatro'wle.'erdars. IrTela I"
41"
weed
"'-
adopted in England and Scotland ?In Englandnfor thet maj
care that
rho t; e sbtuatn tle,
let them
tapropertyk
mainte-
nance poefotphlee,irbecini
being Protestant,
he mainte-
did not come when they would lose it.—(hear.) the day
look at Scotland ; in that country the religion of the) majorityrrh",
was supported out of property belonging to the Church, et
this support came from the public after all. —( Hear, ?learn
But in Ireland the property of the church was taken from her,)
and, then, when the Prime Minister came forward with a pro-
position as a remedy for the removal of some portion of the load
of injustice and oppression, he was met by not only every op-
position that could be offered, but also by epithets that did
but very little cripit indeed to those who used them. —( Hear. )
On the grounds that he had stated, he would support this mea-
sure, for he looked upon it as one of public polio and

as one that would give satisfaction to the Irish people, and a '
better education to their clergy.—( Hear, hear.) There was
one point to which he would have objected if it were proposed,
and that was, taking the means out of the Consolidated Fund.
He would prefer that the fund should be supplied from the
saving created by the abolition of pluralities and sinecures in
the Established Church ; but as those funds, to the amount of
130,00 W. had been otherwise applied, he would then suggest
that they should be provided out of the Consolidated Fund
until they could be saved from the other source.—( Hear.)
He begged to say that he would most cordially support the
motion of the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Cheers.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE did not think that the Hon. Member
who had just sat down haibeen very convincing in his arguments,
or very complimentary to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, in
placing them in comparison with the idolatora of India. But
he blamed the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland for much of
the misery of the people of that faith. He did not concur
in opinion with those who supported this measure upon the as-
sertion that, by increasing the facilities of education, and
placing the student in :an easier position, the people would be
grateful. He saw by a report in the newspapers of a late
meeting of the Roman Catholic Institute, that the Provincial of
the Jesuits was present and addressed the meeting. They
might recollect that the Catholic Emancipation Act contained
a provision which required all the Roman Catholic regular
clergy to register themselves. He had endeavoured to ascer-
tain whether there was such a registry, but he believed that
none existed.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think much of the
argument derived from the poverty of the people of Ireland, for
he thought there was great truth in the remark of the Hon.
and Gallant Member for Weymouth, that when the people of
Ireland sent 10,0001. to Lyons for the Propaganda, they could
support a college of their own. The Roman Catholics of Eng •
land had no difficulty in supporting places for the education of
English priests. When he looked to the destination of this
grant, when he saw that it was going for the support of the
active pioneers of a faith in which he did not believe, for the
maintenance of active disturbers of the public peace, it could
not be wondered at that it had his decided opposition ; and he
must confess that he little expected such a measure would be
brought forward by the present Government. For the various
reasons he had stated he would vote against the measure.
Mr. PAKINGTON said that he could not agree in the
conclusion to which his Hon. Friend who had just sat down
had come to, with respect to this measure. He was of opinion
that Protestantism would be better able to defend its position
when the present measure was carried. He was sorry that the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh took up
a narrow party ground in arguing this measure. He thought
that the Right Hon. Gentleman was wrong in saying that the
present Government made the " No Popery" cry the means of
their getting into office.—(lronical cheering.) It was per-
fectly true they raised a cry to defend the Protestant religion
when they thought it was in danger ; and he was ready to take
the same course again. The Right Hon. Gentleman also said
—and his Hon. Friend the Member for Northamptonshire
stated the same sentiment Lore broadly—that the present mea-
sure lost ranch of its grace, if not of its utility, in being
brought forward by the present Government. Now, he thought
of all persons his Right Hon. Friend, who had carried Catholic
Emancipation, was the person who had the best right to pro-
pose such a measure as this. He thought the argument
put forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
the University of Dublin, and others—namely, that of the
present measure being the forerunner of others—was a very
feeble one. He did not see why we should be in a worse position
to defend others, by consenting to the present one. He would
not yield in his desire to uphold Protestantism to any one, and
he voted for the present measure because he did not think the
Protestant religion could be injured by it. He thought, with
his Right Hon. Friend, that the worst course that could be
adopted would be that of leaving Maynooth as it was. He
considered the state of Maynooth was one of the greatest prac-
tical evils under which Ireland suffered. He voted for the
measure on this ground, and because he looked upon it as one
step in that wise conciliatory policy towards Ireland, which
every Government in this country ought now to carry out.
(Cheers. ) He believed that concession would be met by gra-
titude on the part of the Irish people. Entertaining these
views, he should certainly give his support to the measure re-
commended by her Majesty's Government.
Mr. P. M STEWART said he was anxious to say a few
words in explanation of the vote he was about to give. After
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Edinburgh, delivered last night, it would be presumption in
him to attempt to answer the speech which had been made in
reply to the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Edin-
burgh, by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Droitwich.
In 1841, at the general election, the weapon used by the Con-
servative, now the prevalent party in this country, was the cry
of "No Popery." That weapon was used by that party when
in Opposition with the greatest effect. In this assertion he
would be borne out by the constituencies of the country. At
that time there was a general cry in the country of " the
Church is in danger," an i the cry was repeated ad nauseam.
Such was the extent to which that cry was carried, that he
who was then the distinguished leader of the Whig party, gave
utterance to the well-known expression—" that it was a heavy
blow, and great discouragement" to the party then in power.
lie ( Mr. Stewart) protested against the party opposite now
throwing away the weapon thoy had formerly used or denying
that they had used it. The Hon. Member for Droitwich had stated
that if a measure were good in itself it mattered not who intro-
duced it. The Hon. Member could not have heard the forcible
manner in which this argument had been dealt with by the
Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh. That Right Hon Gen-
tleman prefaced his remarks by saying that th• country had an
interest in this measure, and they also had a deep interest in
the character of public men. He went on to say, then, that if
this Bill were right in principle now, it must have been doubly
right at an earlier period of the sufferings of that country to
which it a plied. This was the argument used with respect
to the policy of the party opposite now, and their policy some
four years ago. Ile (Mr. Stewart), differing from those with
whom he had the honour usually to act, sincerely wished that
this Bill might never reach the statute-book of these realms.
But, if it were to pass, let them not be told that the Bill in-
volved no question of principle, and therefore they ought only
to discuss points of detail. His construction—his humble con-
struction was, that no Bill had ever been introducvd into
that House involving more direct and important points of
principle than the Bill which they were then discussing.
They had been told that since 1795 a sessional grant had re-
gularly been made to the College of Maynooth. The Bill
now before the House was intended to remove this annual
grant out of the reach of Parliament—in the first place to
treble the amount of the grant, and in the next place to give
30,0 01. to the improvement of the College. Did not that in-
volve a question of principle? The country had so interpreted
it, and in his humble opinion he believed they had judged
rightly. He believed that they were, in making this grant,
violating the protest which this nation had made against
Popery. Those who had spoken in favour of this grant had
all modified their opinions. First came the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone). Then
came the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath—strong, pun-
gent, and full of argument in favour of the Bid, and against
those who dared to differ from it. How did that Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman qualify his support. of this
measure? He said that if this had been the first proposal
made of the kind, if they had not been in the habit of granting
annually a sum of money to Maynooth, he would not have
assented to this measure. That was the qualified support
which came from such a quarter as the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath. Then came his Hon, Friend the Member
for Lambeth, who said that unless the amount given by this
Bill should be fixed, settled, and drawn from the source which
his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, at a future stage of
the Bill, intended to suggest, he could not approve of the Bill:
Then came the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire-
land, who said that it was useless to meddle in this matter, for
it was better to let well alone. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then had the effrontery—he would pardon him for using such
an expression--to say that there was no well in Ireland to let
alone at that moment. Was there no " well" in Ireland in
1841, when the Government was given into the hands of the
present Adminstration ? Ireland was never in a more pros-
perous state than it was at the time when the late Government
left office. He believed that this Bill, which was intended as a
sop to the Catholics, would act as an inducement to them to
make greater demands. What had Mr. O'Connell said in his
admirable speech, which showed no failing of intellect, and
no cooling of ardour in the cause of Ireland ?—( Hear,
hear.) He said, "I take this as the first fruits
of fear, and lam sure it will not be the last. You may de-
pend upon it that the next thing will be to repeal itself from
the eminent author of the Bill now before us. The Hon.
and Learned Gentlaman called this a boon to misbelieve, and
he said that they would mibelieve agoin, fort they were
now beginning to reap the fruits of it. What ef-
fect could a measure of this kind have on Ireland,
or the Irish people, when it was so interpreted by their Go-
vernment and eminent leader. The measure would evidently
be merely productive of further demands from the people of
Ireland. When he observed the fruits of agitation in Ireland,
he almost began to regret that they had not adopted the same
system in his own quiet country of Scotland. In that country
they were looked upon as passive and as peaceable, and there.
fore they were capriciously disposed of. As was stated by the
Hon, and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Bath, on
the previous night, two years ago the people of Scotland came
forward with respect to a great national cause connected with the
Scotch Church. f hey wished to present a petition, not for money,
not for patronage, for they abhorred the latter and they did not
value the former. They came to the door of that House with
a petition, the prayer of which was simply this, that in secular
matters they might be held subservient to the law, but that in
spiritual matters they should be freed from the baneful domina-
tion of civil courts and civil magistrates. Not only was that
petition not allowed to be brought in, but it was spurned from
their door. Was there justice in this ? He trusted that his
Catholic Friends around him would not think that he had said
anything in the least degree hostile to them or their religion.
Ho admitted that the world was largely indebted to the Roman
Catholics. Every one must admire the works and the charac-
ter of such men as Fenelon, Pascal, and the historian Lingard.
But he was bound to say, that he would not lend a hand to
anything which was calculated to risk the great principles of the
reformation on -which the Constitution of the country depended.
There was no mistaking the opinion of the people at large upon
this subject. They had heard some able speeches delivered on
this question, and the ridicule that had been thrown on the
multitude of petitions, and the acres of parchment with which
that table was covered; but he would tell them that on no subject
ever petitioned upon n ere the petitioners more in earnest. He
believed that the measure which was proposed to the House
was fraught with evil, and could only be productive of very
doubtful good to the Country. He said, for the sake of the
Catholics of Ireland and the Protestants on this side the
Channel, that he desired, in his heart, that this Bill might
never reach the statute-book, for he felt assured, that should
it become law, it would be eradicated from the statute-book en
the very first occasion. Although in this opinion he was in a
minority in that House, yet he believed that the majority in
the country were with him, and as the representative not of a
particular community but of the people at large—of this Pro-
testant country and also of Catholic Ireland—for the sake of
both Protestants and Catholics he entered his protest against
the measure by giving his vote against it.
The Earl of LINCOLN said he felt so convinced that the
subject before the House was completely exhausted—that
during the three nights over which the debate had been ex-
tended, every argument that could be urged, for or against the
measure, had been so often repeated, that he might hesitate in
rising to address the House, and might content himself by
giving a silent vote on this occasion, but he was anxious to re-
move from himself any misconstruction which might attach to
his silent vote. He was anxious to address the House, in order
to declare that he did not give the measure a hesitating or
doubtful support, but that he was interested in its success, not
only in its passage through Parliament, but for its success in
Ireland, when it had obtained the sanction of the Legislature.
So strongly was he convinced of the necessity and justice of the
measure, that he only wished that, in the few observations
which he would venture to address to the House, he could
impress on tlim,se who did him the honour of listening to
him for a short time, his conscientious conviction
of the wisdom of the measure, which was so deeply
wea...,:gurneiatty.deallioef woai
fixed in his own mind.
ltaesetuandhe:reosfsteathetetoternlmlouunsietyahppadeableeielnverystrongly—efpecially in
_h.e.oncludinig portion of his speech—to the religious feelings
roused.there
He admitted that
con-
vinced that no statesman ntotoadthmeitßt
hat thhee
wrealsigious
to disregard
such
hfeei could with propriety be rash enough
to carefully examine feelings ; but it was the duty of a statesman
based on justice.
their conduct.. He (thee
vhgenether or not these religious feelings were
said that if the Hon.
Gentleman who last sat down
this measure had Governmentexperienced,
had foreseen the reception which
that the Government would
have shunned plat expression of , they would have reconsidered
Hon. Gentleman meant to Earl of Lincoln) imagined that the
of religious feeling, and would
:ripe
dos ei
readytiHonourable
""rahle Gentleman who

not have dared to introduce the measure. He believed—in
fact, he knew—that his Right Hon. Friend, not only when he
brought forward the question a few nights ago, but when he
gave notice of his intention last year, was well aware of the
risk which he was running, and the manner in which it was
likely to be received ; and he thought this of itself sufficiently
answered the taunt raised against the Government by several
Hon. Members, more especially by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Edinburgh—the taunt of inconsistency.
The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had, he thought,
answered that taunt when he said that there had been no call
for this measure. If there had been no call, and if these feel-
ings had been anticipated, lie should like to know what but the
imperious sense of duty could have induced the Government to
bring it forward ?—( Hear.) The question of contract in this
matter had been repeatedly argued and re-argued, during three
nights' debate. A great number of Hon. Gentlemen, includ-
ing the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh,
denied that any contract existed, or even, he believed, an im-
plied contract. He (the Earl of Lincoln) was ready to rest
his vote upon the merits of the measure itself ; but he did not
at all agree with those who asserted that there was no contract,
or that a contract had ever existed. He could not agree with
' those who asserted that there was no contract, any more than
with tkose who declared that a new religious principle was in-
volved in the present measure. In discussing the question of
contract, he felt, as he had already stated, that there were much
higher grounds for defending the measure ; but he felt con-
vinced in his own mind, seeing that two Acts of the Irish Par-
liament had created and sanctioned the measure—( Hear)—
seeing that the acts of the Irish Legislature had been sanc-
tioned by the Imperial Parliament of Great Britain, which
had devised regulations respecting the College, appointing
trustees; and he might remark by the way that those trustees
had been appointed when the Legislature was Protestants ;
and at a time when none but Protestants could be trustees. In
the year 1809, and in the year 1813, this vote had been revised
for the purpose of increasing it, and for the purpose of giving
a better mode of education and an increased number of stu-
dents. He could not witness all these facts, without feeling
that they had been committed to the principle, and that a
contract had existed, not indeed a contract written in a formal
manner, and having that legal force which would bind an in-
dividual,' but such a contract as alone could exist between the
Government and the governed. He had stated just now
his disbelief that any new religious principle was involved
in the measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Edinburgh had sneered at the allegation that no religious
principle was involved in the measure. What he (the Earl of
Lincoln) asserted was, that no religious principle was involved.
There was the same religious principle in the measure of 1795.
The question was then settled and disposed of. It was now only a
question of arithmetical calculation, with which religious prin-
ciples had nothing to do. In 1795 the measure had been pro-
posed that had been suggested by Burke and approved
by Pitt. It had been laid before the ;prelates of
England for their sanction and approval, passed through
both Houses of Parliament—a Parliament exclusively Pro•
testant—sanctioned and received the force of law in the reign
of George 111., a monarch whose memory Englishmen reve-
renced, but more especially extolled by those who maintained
the principle of Protestant ascendancy. If, then, a measure
was sanctioned and continued under such circnrestances, for
such a length of time, could they then, in 1845, in a reformed
Parliament, with a House of Commons to which Roman Catho-
lics had been admitted, and who were commingled with the
legislation in all matters connected with the empire—could
they, he said, pass a resolution for the purpose of discontinuing
the grant altogether ? If they admitted and believed, as the
Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh
had admitted, they could not, with justice, discontinue the
vote altogether, any objection fell to the ground against
the proposal to increase it. Whilst upon this part of the ques-
tion he would quote the words of Mr. Grattan on a similar
occasion. In 1811 Mr. Grattan said, in answer to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of that day, that he was not aware of
the strength of the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument. That
although we adopted the original grant we were not obliged to
allow it. "If (said Mr. Grattan) the principle he even al-
lowed, the limitation of the grant seemed only fixed by the cir-
cumstances of the time—to act otherwise would be nominally
to adopt, but ultimately to defeat the principle." This grant
had been continued for a number of years. He would not say
that fifty years' usage made right wrong. He was willing to
admit the force of the maxim, that no length of time could jus-
tify evil—that what was wrong in morals could not be right in
politics. But then he was compelled to ask, was any such maxim
involved in the measure before the House ? Was there any pro-
posal involving an infringement of 'religion's principles ? Was the
endowment of the institution different in a religious point of view
from making an annual vote? He did not subscribe to any such
opinions. If Hon. Gentlemen really believed that a religious
principle was involved, he called upon them to act up to that
belief. They could not stop here ' • they could not be content
with the rejection of the measure before the House. lie be-
lieved that some among his Hon. Friends that had spoken on
the question were wiling to go further—were willing to repeal
the Act of Parliament altogether ; but he did not think they
would vindicate their consistency even by this step. They
must go further. They must resist any contribution to the
Dissenters of Ireland—the application of the Regium Donum.
They mast withdraw from all the colonies the spiritual assist-
ance of the priests of the Roman Catholic faith. His Hon.
Friend (the Member for Newcastle) said, on moving the
amendment, that he was ready to make an exception
in favour of the colonies, in consequence of treaties that bound
them to those payments. Where then was the principle ?
Let him remind his Hon. Friend that, if he considered this to
be a religions principle, he could not but resist it. No ques
tion of expediency could step in where religions principle stood
upon the threshold. Therefore. his Hon. Friend and those
who thought with him should be prepared to act upon this
principle, and to treat those treaties as mere waste paper. No
consideration of temporal advantage to the colonies should
withhold them from acting on such principles. He looked
upon this question as unconnected with any principle of
religion. He saw in Ireland a priesthood placed in he midst
of a people who were poor and ignorant. The priesthood
must posses: influence and popularity in precise proportion to
their qualities and merits. He saw a priesthood placed in
Ireland under these circumstances, and could he then hesitate
seeing the immense moral influenee they possessed to adopt
means to educate the people. Could he hesitate to give in-
struction to those by whom alone the people of Ireland were
willing to receive instruction ? He confessed he did not despair
of seeing the hearts of the priesthood interested in the common
cause of the empire. He did not despair of seeing the Roman
Catholic priesthood labouring with them in the common field,
not of religion, but of the regeneration and improvement of
• the country. If such a consummation as this was to be
attained, he would appeal to the Right Honourable
Gentleman (the Member for Oxford) whether he would not
make a sacrifice, ,short of that in which he thought
religion was involved? But he believed that to such a consum-
mation this must be the first step. Without a measure of this
kind, nothing they could do would be met in a grateful spirit.
He believed that unless they passed a measure placing, in a
better position than they at present stood, the priesthood of
Ireland, the best efforts of the Government would be thwarted,
and nothing they could do would have the desired effect. Se-
veral Hon. Gentlemen who had addressed the House, inure
particularly the Members for Harwich and Warwickshire, had
laid stress on what they conceived to be the imperfect insti-
tution of Maynooth up to the present time.—( Hear.) Those
Hon. Gentleman had said that the experiment had been tried
for fifty `ears—that it had failed ,and that therefore it was the
incumbent duty of Parliament to withdraw instead of increase
the grant. But the Hon. Gentlemen who had come to such
a conclusion had not inquired into the causes of the failure.
He was not now about to go into any further detail, regarding
the present condition of the institution, but he believed the
assertion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth,
who asserted that Maynooth was in a condition such as
any man could with to see it, was incorrect.
He would not allude to the system of religion
or education practised there, but he firmly believed that the
grant at present allowed by Parliament, from its limited na-
ture, caused the whole system pursued there to be illiberal, and
was not likely to impress on the minds of the students
any grateful feelings towards the State. Before they pro-
nounced Maynooth to be a failure they ought to increase the
comforts of the inmates. It was said that no system of edu-
cation could succeed amongsptihrietuhalumwbliethr
temporal classes, unless n leeds
us
ca ttheireducation
physical wants were first consulted. The same argument ap-
plied to Maynooth. He hoped the House would not attempt to
interfere with the systeomppionfinin of Mr.
liu
nstructionpurrkn.
sued_a(t:hleaynNoonbtlhe,
tnhoertea.ttesmnpothtowars theaise opinion
Lord then quoted the opinion of Mr. Burke on this subject,
which has already been given in this debate.) Such a course
(continued the Noble Lord), would only have the effect of
making the laity bigoted, without making the clergy more
liberal. The Hon. Member for Armagh had complained of
the time at which this measure had been brought forward,
and the Member for Harwich took the same line of conduct.
He had stated that this was not the proper time for the intro-
duction of this measure, but he (the Earl of Lincoln) believed
that it was precisely the time, because this was the moment
when the grant ought to be made, and the manner of it he con-
oeived to be of equal importance with the time at which it was
made. The Hon. Member for Dungarvon (Mr. Shell) in a
speech the other night, which was characterised with more than
e
betheaisrserfteeadvs
?thaatndthhies
thhi uwsiumall
whole
loofq uhei
sn cs
speeches
,e
ohoande
s ha
d remindedaall
sse
rttheedm,
tthhaatt r.
the O'Connell
concession
ins
that had been made had been extorted from their fears.
But,
neoonn h
conceived
ee
concession
wouldthatilad t
hahissek
e,
wnascouldextortedthe it
precise
e nnw i
sof
erommoment when this mea-
sure should be introduced. Agitation had been suppressed,
the supremacy of the law had been vindicated, and the clamour
for repeal had been hushed in the murmur of general industry
and commercial prosperity. They had neither conflicts nor
wars, none even of those little wars which Hon. Gentlemen
opposite had left as a legacy to their successors—there were
not even rumours of wars. If this measure were adopted, he
believed that it would tend to promote the peace of Ireland.
The House should remember that the question was not now in
the position in which it stood before it was introduced.
They had offered this chalice of goodwill to the people of Ire-
land, and he trusted that they would not frustrate those hopes.
For himself he felt that his vote would be attended with a very
painful responsibility, and it was not without much serious con-
sideration that he had come to the decision to vote for this
grant to Maynooth, and that he had felt it necessary to express
his sentiments upon it. During the twelve years which he had
had the honour of holding a seat in that House he
had never until now had the misfortune to differ
with a majority of his constituents, but on this
subject he felt it his duty—his most painful duty—to
follow the impulse of his conscience and the dictates of his rea-
sen.—( Hear, hear.) There were other reasons, too, which
would make this vote a most painful one—(Loud and con-
tinued cheering)—which would make this vote a most painful
one, but which it would be neither right or becoming in him
othpienpiorieisssuthreat
to explain to that House.—( Cheers.) But he trusted that,
to
theirwh which
nms taint uY
however severe the trial, he still was determined to do justice
to his country, and persevere in the course which principle and
conviction alike pointed out to him ; and while he regretted
eonftsh
would yet, with all humility g pon them to act upon the
impressions which they had 'audoLpetedu,- for, notwithstanding the
were subjected, he
they might feel assured that they would act upon their future
convictions, and, allowing the claims upon their respect
accord to them last'
misigfhrtienadt s
esteem.—( Cheers')
present express, yet
Lord WORSLEY said, that he had presented petitions,
from not only a large nurnlser of the body of the Wesleyans,
abnudt ahlesoshfrnonmldmnnatnynonfw the Dissenting
obtruded
iinaCongregationseifnnt from that
part of the county of Lincoln with which he was connected,
on this
anahonourable
occasion,
do
t he s 11, o
ratherught it
tha
n would
give bae
silentbh oeth Housemore
v ot vote
honest
or absent himself from the House. He had also the misfor-
npthineit(slgnqelukiesnotninownt,h}.:3
fon.r.
misfor-
tune to differ from a great tion of his constituents on
He had or
come to that House, it was true, un-
°ll y had he declared them,
1835, when his Noble Fr.
anynot otheri subject—but his sentimentbs
but
terine
towards
noi
dtso bodieslfroe lllaonNovdf,
o,Cunhttreitshftniera Christians, London, moved for a Select Committee to consider the state
of ecclesiastical affairs in Ireland, with a view to appropriate
the surplus fund for the e
declaring bis intention of giving
education of the people at large, and
eenar lane ,
de thepnh;l
policy
11yi Iu e,
reading.ot
infdb ch therefore, r s f
Bo
Nru ott
bhwl
lwithCityeh
Friend
dasf
l
e
t
the Bill, he must at the same time say that, in conformity with
the views that he had then expressed, he should support also
the proposition of the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward),
and oppose the appropriation of the 26,0001. from the Conso-
lidated Fund. his support to that extent to
Mr. M. AIILNES said that he he hailed this as the first
step of a great measure—he looked on it as a step only towards
carrying out the effects of a motion which he had
placed on the books of the )douse last session, for the

endowment of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) The question was not now whether they
should add a few more comforts, or elevate the position of the
Romish clergy, for he believed that on that point neither his
Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. Inglis), nor any
other Member of that House, would entertain the slightest
objection on that account to give a little more furniture to the
rooms of the students, or a decent front to the building, or
throw an air of cheerfulness over those gloomy apartments,
by giving them some of the refinements of England. He did
not think that there was any fear that the addition of such
comforts, or the introduction of more wealth to the Roman
Catholic establishments of the country would tend to advance
the religion of Ireland, for if they did the Irish Protestant
Church would not have remained in the same stationary posi-
tion which it had held for the last forty years. He believed
that even his Hon. Friend the Member for Kent (Mr.
Plumptre) if he saw a Roman Catholic priest lying wounded
by the wayside, would stoop down to help him up ; and yet if
he did thatlie would be supporting Popery—( Great laughter)—
and he never had been more shocked in the whole course of his
life than when he heard the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Oxford express a feeling that he would rather see the Roman
Catholic priesthood of Ireland suffering all their present
deficiency, if they were likely to become such men
as Bossuet or Dr. Wiseman. Something had been
said about the contract. He believed that the terms of the
contract had been fulfilled at the close of the war, for the ob-
ject for which this grant was made had been to secure domes
tic education for the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland.,
when England was fearful of injury from their foreign rela-
tions. But he believed that Mr. Pitt, who made that con-
tract, would look upon its spirit in a very different light ; and
he thought that if the spirit of Mr. Pitt were hovering over
them at that moment, he would view their proceedings with
singular complacency. If there was one thing that could en-
hance the value of this gift more than another, it was the
frank and honourable manner with which the Honourable
Baronet had proposed it. Great reflection had been thrown
upon the administration of the present Government in Ireland,
but he believed that nothing was more unwise—nothing more
unjust. That Government had gone the right way to conciliate
the people of Ireland—( Hear, hear)—by the only way in
which the Irish people would or could accept conciliation—and
that was, by placing the priesthood in a position of respect-
ability and honour ; and if the Right Hon. Baronet wished to
bring peace to that country, he would follow the good ex-
ample of his predecessors to the utmost.—(" Hear, hear,"
and cheers.) Yet in doing this he must so act
as to save himself from the reproach from which his prede-
cessors had suffered, for he could effect all this without touching
upon the privileges or the rights of the Protestant establish-
ments in that country.—(Laughter.) He thought it neces-
sary to say this, because the object of the Whigs had been the
destruction of that establishment. —(Cries of " No, no," and
" Hear, hear.") Well, he thought it necessary to state this,
because he conceived that the motives of Hon. Members on
both sides of the House should be fully developed on this subject.
If the question had been brought forward by the opposite side
of the House he would have given it his fullest support.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed that in all questions of politics ex-
pediency was the best rule.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter. )
He thought that the question of principle was used as the most
important in cases which we opposed, and expediency was
adopted in all cases of which we approved. He was glad that
this proposition had been brought forward at this time, and by
the men by whom it was introduced.--(A laugh.) The cir-
cumstances of Ireland required it. He was glad that his Right
Hon. Friend, with the Duke of Wellington, who resisted Ca-
tholic Emancipation until that resistance brought on the threat
of a civil war, now interposed their power and their wisdom,
f„rrgoing their previous determinations, and showing the
%%mild that it was not any spirit of misanthropy which actuated
their.—( Cheers ) They sacrificed all previous views for the
purposes of reconciling the interests of the nation.—( Cheers. )
They did not go on as the Government of a neighbouring coun-
try was going on, faintly endeavouring to work out good mea-
sures against a mistaken and factious opposition.—( Cheers. )
They proposed measures in which all that wished for the good
of the country could agree. He hoped the House would assist the
Government, and regard all measures, not, with regard to the
views of any faction, bet with regard to the general good of the
country.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He believed that
all the opponen's of the Bill were well-meaning men in the
closet.—(Great laughter.) They were, some of them, men
whom he esteemed in private life, but to whom he would not
entrust the destinies of his country.—(Cheers and laughter. )
He hoped this measure would pass, and that there would be no
occasion to revert to that:severity towards Ireland which, at all
times, could only be regarded as an amiable misanthropy.—
( Cheers and laughter.) He considered his Hon. Friend
near him an amiable misanthrope.—(Great laughter. )
The grievances inflicted upon Ireland by this country was
great. It was necessary to compensate them—(Cheers)—and
if the loss of his own seat were the consequence of his vote, he
would (to use the words of Hon. Members opposite) adopt the
present occasion as the most auspicious for the sacrifice.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY had no doubt it was an exceed-
ingly entertaining thing for any person who stood in a position
political antagonism in that House, to indulge in matters of
crimination and recrimination on one side and on the other—•to
contrast the conduct of persons on the present occasion with
that of past years, but he felt, as a Roman Catholic Member for
Ireland, that he was not in a situation to adopt such a course.
It was for him to leave it to others who had
before fought in the arena of uncertain politics to adopt such a
course. He stood upon neutral ground to consider as a Roman
Catholic what the proposition of her Majesty's Government was
towards Ireland, and not in any spirit of crimination or
recrimination which had been so freely indulged in by Hon.
Gentlemen on both sides of the House. He conscientiously
believed the measure before them would have the advantage of
p lying the way to the permanent peace of both countries, and
if it were sanctioned by the House in a cordial and liberal
spirit, it would lead to the existence of a lasting unanimity
between the two nations. It was in that spit it that he now
came before the House as a Roman Catholic Member, to sup-
port the Government ; but if it should so happen that in
the course of his address he overstepped in some measure that
spirit in which he wished to view the question, he hoped the
House would not look upon it in the light of obloquy, but
attribute it to the natural fervour of an Irishman. Having
said thus much, he would proceed very shortly, be-
fore coming to the principle of the proposition, to review
certain speeches which had been made against the measure
by Hon. Gentlemen who sat on the other side of the House.
The first speech, and almost the first arguments against the
Bill he had an opportunity of hearing were those of the Hon.
Member for Newcastle. That speech broached two proposi-
tions. One was that a degree of ignorance existed in the
College of Maynooth, which was not only lamentable, but ac-
tually ridiculous; and yet the principal recommendation of
the Hon. Member was to withhold any grant of public money,
which was calculated to remove the evils of which he com-
plained. The Honourable Member next declared that there
was something in the exclusive character of this institution
which was truly repugnant to the feelings. Now, if the lion.
Member for Newcastle had made that speech on Thursday
evening, when the Hon. Member for Weymouth brought for-
ward his motion for throwing open the Universities of this
country to the members of all religious denominations,
it would have been exceedingly applicable to the
occasion.—( Cheers. ) In Ireland the feeling had long
been favourable to the throwing open of Trinity College to all
classes, hut the zealous efforts of the people had never yet se-
cured that boon. They refused to throw open Trinity Col-
lege to the Roman Catholics, and the people, therefore, asked
Parliament to make some provision for the education at
Maynooth. And this brought him to the principle of the
measure. He found that the proposition of the Go-
vernment was to give a certain sum towards the endow-
ment of a Roman Catholic College in Ireland. He had been
told by some Hon. Members who opposed it, that there was no
compact for making this provision; and, fcr his part, he never
did consider that any existed. He merely looked to this grant
2, matter recurring from year to year; but he would ask
any person, whether there was no implied compact in the first
instance? He would ask him whether there was not a tone
and temper in the state of society in this country, at the time
the grant was first made, as to lead to the belief that it was in-
tended to be permanent and fixed? Some Hon. Members
did not object to the grant while it was kept at 9,0001. a year ;
but when Government proposed to raise it to 30,0001., they
opposed it bstause the grant was encouraging error. Now he
confessed this was the first time he had ever heard that there
was such a thing as a sliding scale in morality. He
could not understand how that could be base at 30,00 e/.,
which was not so at 9,0001. The latter sum was evidently
not suffieient to maintain the College; but the Hon. Member
for Perth was of a different opinion. The Hon. Member for
Perth thought the grant conferred every comfort on the in-
mates of Maynooth ; and in support of this opinion the Hon.
Member quoted a passage from a work written by a Mr. James
Grant, but his Hon. Friend the Member for Dungarvon appeared
to give no weight to that opinion, because it was given by a
Scotchman, who might not be supposed to be the best judge of
the comforts or the use of trousers.—( Laughter.) Now he (Mr.
Sergeant Murphy) should very much like to have the notions of
Mr. Grant on the subject of dress. He held in his hand a
book which that gentleman had devoted to a description of that
House, and certainly his delineations of articles of dress, and
other matters, were well calculated to convince Hon. Members
what amount of judgment this respectable Scotch traveller
was likely to possess upon the merits and comforts of this semi-
nary. He would commence with the description of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government,. whose per-
son and dress this gentleman had described in the most
graphic manner. He was quite sure any one who heard the
description would say at once, "there is the man." Mr.
Grant said, " The Right Hon Baronet's usual dress is a blue
surtout"—(Roars of laughter, in which the Right Hon.
an“d He sag
Heeahlonent
h.scarcel
sacrificesy b
ae
Baronet heartily joined)—" light waistcoat, and dark
trousers. He generally displays a watch-chain on his breast,
with a bunch of gold setts of unusually large dimensions."
who
description d res s dresses
of
ai n
somewhat
iawbtt
eeert
ttt hehree
givenil faithful-
nessG toeafasl
differentt_i eaatphn.i
—( Roars of laughter.) Now let the House, continued
the Honourable Member, listen to what followed. He
was sure that the Right Honourable Gentlemeanßmaerwomonbueletd.r
feelellletdhaat idtanwdays—a
(cßalouamrsnoyi upon him.
good deal to the Graces—(Renewed laughter). I hardly
kHneownowaoampoubtloic
man
ner
Thatt
fopmGoheraaaa
klrr eaea
Lincoln.—(Shouts
was
ncsi
the description
Colonel
sepesl
sahrhobioritdescriptionomiuoputsfttse golreadinghimself
of dbo fy humour,
ttuuohhmgfee
laughter.)
Ghtuvte
ehrear
rel.
latacoui
description
He
appreciate
elroi
etwl
an
Colonelt
e
of t
the
on
etherh i s plpaocret
portrait,
t thehe
(Mr.opposite
Sergeant benches,
lk luarnpdh
ye hewo
would
s
" His countenance is altogether unique.—( Roars of laughter): )
It stands out, in broad relief, from the countenances of all the
other Members.—(Continued laughter.) Two or three of the
senators rejoice in tufts, a few more in whiskers, but the whis-
kers of the Gallant Member for Lincoln left in the distance,
and out of all proportion, the whiskers of other Hon. Members.
You hardly know whether he has a mouth or not—(Laughter
from all
.parts of the House, in which the Gallant Colonel
heartily joined)—it is so completely buried amidst a crop of
hair, until he begins to speak." But let them mark the
" plums of the pudding." " He would do and suffer a great deal
for his party and principles, but rather than submit to be
shaved, he would see Toryism and party scattered to the
winds."—( Shouts of laughter.) He would go a little further,
and come to this side of the House, and he would turn to the
description of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Lambeth.—
( Laughter.) "Ho speaks frequently—(Laughter)—and ge-
nerally on unimportant subjects—( Continued laughter)—and
there is not one great principle with which he is identified.
He is a little man— ( Shouts of laughter)—round-faced, and of
a dark complexion."—(Laughter.) He should not keep the
House much longer, but would just quote another of the
graphic portraits from the book before him. lie found it
stated of the Right Hon. Member for Perth, "that he was of
extremely graceful proportions, and of retiring habits."
Now, he was sure that no Hon. Member in that House, after
hearing these descriptions read, could doubt the com-
petency of the authority quoted by the Right
Honourable Member. for Perth, in all matters of
comfort, dress, and convenience.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. )
There had been two objections, which he had found generally
urged to the House in opposition to this Bill. It was stated
in the first place that they boasted of supporting their own
clergy, and it was asked why they did not also instruct them
themselves upon the voluntary principle? His answer was,
that they were willing to pay them themselves if the establish-
ment in Ireland were entirely changed ; but, as proved by the
report of the Poor-law Commissioners, they had now in addi-
tion to their other burdens to maintain a pauper population,
amounting to 2,500,000.—( Hear, hear.) They were asked by
the Hon. Member for Newcastle, how it was that they sup-
ported the voluntary principle, and yet accepted this grant
from Government? He would tell the Hon. Member. In the
first place, he would receive it because owing to other cireum-