The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-09 00:00:00

of EMPEROR of BRA

IL
the

-,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, July 8.
Their Lordships having sat in Error in the appeal of
Daniel O'Connell and others, from ten o'clock until four,
resumed, for public business, at a quarter to five.
Several private Bills were advanced a stage, and in
the case of others the Commons' amendments were
agreed to, and the Bills passed, but we could not catch
their names.
DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL.
The Earl of SIIAFTESBURY presented a petition
from a body of Unitarian Dissenters in favour of the
Bill.
A REV. PRELATE, whose name we did not hear,
presented several petitions from places in Yorkshire,
Surrey, and other parts of the kingdom, against the Bill.
The Bishop of LONDON presented numerous peti-
tions to the same effect.
CORN-LAWS.
Lord ELDON presented petitions from numerous
parishes in Surrey against any alteration of the corn-
laws which would diminish agricultural protection.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented similar petitions
from places in the counties of Sussex, Hants, and Somer-
set, against the Anti-Corn-law League, and in favour of
protection ; also petitions from Exeter and other places,
against certain provisions of the Bank Charter Act.
Lord TEYNHAM presented a great number of peti-
tions from places in Staffordshire, Lancashire, Bucking-
ham, Northampton, and various other parts of the coun-
try, against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill.
Lord SOMERS presented twenty•four petitions, in
favour of agricultural protection. The Noble Lord pre-
sented also several petitions against the Bank Charter
Bill.
Lord ASIIBURTON presented several petitions from
places in Surrey, praying for agricultural protection.
The Noble Lord presented also a petition in favour of
the Dissenters' Chapels Bill.
THE POST-OFFIC LETTER OPENING.
The Duke of WELLI•)TON informed the House
that he had received a letter frOm Lord Burlington, de-
clining to sit upon the Secret Committee of Post-office
inquiry ; and on the motion of the Noble Duke, the name
of Lord Colborne was substituted.
THE BANK CHARTER BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of RIPON, it was agreed
that the Bank Charter Bill should be read a second time
to-morrow, and that the discussion should take place on

Friday.
BISHOPRICS OF BANGOR AND ST. ASAPIL
On the motion of the Earl of row's, the third
reading of the dioceses of Bangor and St. Asaph Bill was
postponed till Thursday.
THE IRISH MAGISTRACY.
Earl FORTESCLTE postponed till Thursday the mo-
tion of which he had given notice for this day, relating
to Mr. O'Driscoll. He hoped he should be allowed to
bring on the motion before the orders of the day, as it
involved a question of personal character, which ought
not to be kept suspended.
Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition from Perth,
praying that the provisions of the Brothels Suppression
Bill should be extended to Scotland.—(A laugh.)
Lord MALIIESBURY presented a petition from land-
owners of New Zealand, praying for further protection
to colonial produce.-
CATHOLIC BEQUESTS BILL.
The Bishop of EXETER said that this Bill contained
clauses of greater importance than had been contained
in any Bill passed by Parliament for the last
300 years. He had come up two hundred miles to take
part in the discussion, which stood fixed for to-morrow,
and he hoped it would not be postponed, as he should
have to return on Wednesday.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said that the same
cause of postponement which affected other measures to-
day would probably cause the postponement of this Bill
to-morrow.
The Bishop of EXETER would take the present op-
portunity of stating generally his objections to the mea-
sure, which were founded upon the effect the Bill would
have of recognising the supremacy of the Pope in these
realms. He should be most happy to support a measure
for enabling Catholics to endow their religious estab-
lishments, if it could be done without endangering the
constitution and the religious institutions of this kingdom.
INCENDIARISM IN NORFOLK AND SUFFOLK.
Lord WODEH OUSE complained with great warmth
of the calumnies which had lately been disseminated
against the gentry and yeomanry of the county (Suffolk)
over which ho had the honour to preside as Lord Lieutenant.
He called upon the gentlemen of the press who were
present to publish his contradiction.—(Order, order, and
great laughter.) Those calumnies would never have
been fabricated, if it had not been to suit the purposes
of those who availed themselves of opposition to
the poor-laws for party objects. If the gentlemen
of the press would go down to the neighbourhood
of his owri estate and examine the union workhouses—
(A laugh)—they would see that they were well ma-
naged, and if they asked the paupers themselves they
would be told that they were better off than under the
old system. He thanked their Lordships and apologised
for the warmth of his manner—(Hear)--but he felt that
he was as much iaculpated by those calumnies as any
farmer in the countv.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of N'ORMANBY considered the warmth
of the Noble Lord perfectly natural, and f.,lt cer-
tain that no part of the' accusations to which he
had alluded could apply to that Noble Lord.—(l-rear,
hear.) lie (the Marquis of Normanby) would take this
opportunity of moving for returns of the number, age,
and sex of the persons who had been committed for trial at
the last assizes in Norfolk and Suffolk, on the charge of
incendiarism, with the result of the trials.
Lord WODEHOTTSE could have no objection to the
n-turns, which were accordingly ordered
The Parliamentary business being concluded, the House
then adjourned for a quarter of an hour—that is toi six
o'clock—when the arguments in the appeal in error on
the Irish State Trials were resumed.

.
Moatt7o4,,st "and Worthy Representatives
.
iPxl7 , •
is; With the gzeateat iatisfaction that I have col
open. the third ees.si.ou of the present legislation, a
.announce to: yen the marriage of my. greatly be
sisteri . the Imperial Princess, .with his Royal
" nese- Prince of , the, Two Sicilies, the
Most-Nappy &Risme,- which proves an
-117inal plodge fOr the continuance of 'My imperial dyx
4nd fulals the most ardent. desires 'of niy.heart.
• - The empire is at peace with all foreign conntriet
Aot,c,eas9,to:einpley the means in my pas
/Reserve it, Without compromising the national' dig]
Jam sorry to communicate to you that the civi
,its the province:of ,S.,.redro do Rio Grande do Sul
yet rally extinct, but in all the others tranquillity,
vans, and to render it more consolidated in those
• ) Paoli:wand Minas Geraes, I have deemed it expedi
rant an amnesty to all whe were concerned in ttl
ai*oiders therein.
,OAK finances -Continue to: require your most a
consi •;: ration andit is not of less importance
to t
;to' oration
and commercial improvement.
,gy.Miaisters,„ the Secretaries of State, will lay
_yon..t.he9stimates of . their respective departMents.
.51.T.,orthy and August Representatives
94i4korty:.-- • , • , „ :
• -Ivo happiness. of_Brazil and the aggrandisem
itwety.'tire are the o?ntinual- objects of my care,
rely on vour cordial ILA loyal co-operation.
r}w Irite.-16.Filon deepened., .
..3144
•-. TIARATBE.—It will ber
!i4 tepid thav-AvaL ,ort-tiztia;sinee.certain parties were im
,aft atom's-; tolcseatil 4 disturbance at the Italian
t,rwithAiseiedlieged:aibe to JO-yes-an ,engagement of Signo
~.Thi3 patties behag•Arrestedlont the- spot and taken be
~,Asagiatrute; were .bound. over;, rat answer the charge
, • €i Batley- Sensions, anddhetgrand jury returned a t
-',..Whe,atfair;lloweV.er, has terminated, as the followin
addressed to. Oats-lessee, will show
Sin—We -beg.te-express. to you-,our great reg:j e
etuthat9-We
sh6nia have catioed you any annoyance by distribultin t
_ the Operaehou.9e the hills relative to an engagement offS'enog a
_Salvi, 4he tendency. of, which was to create serious i ini?coo-r•
.kbaiencele.the.publie; We are fully aware of the serious ce
oulitsitithAvhiclt. we should be visited 'were you, to ptesTithe
~:-!jr9sent.proceedings. against us, and we have to exptess our
'• Alwanks:ter the i&-deut terms on which you have cnnseinted to
~,OrefinabandOnnient,,yiz., the payment of 501. to ten lialties,
fsebkled by you...We Arei bir; your obedient servants •
eGisonofr.lianwxtr London.
„to . . Rom FitattE, Brash Ilutel,
~,,Tirar fano/wing is the list ot'. charitable institutions benefited.
irtjuruibove-arrsingeraent : li,ospita for Consumption, west.
„ThinstertiocapitaL Charing-crest: Paddington ITos:
-pitel,,,i3azspritan Fund; Refuge for the Bouseless Popr, a.
Benevolent Institution, Royal. Disponsar,y ffn Diseafes
cif the Ear; ereverneeses' Institution, and.'tio3 st. Johl4e-wdOi.l
Atm o Saes:
Attin STY's TitEITEN.—On Saturday; night
• iff:Laii4aa withor etas repeated, by her Majestyra corn-
.. %i; ft idr,lft§teati of Oirlto, which had been first announced. Her
-ivapsiertutteked bier box at the commencement of the second
rerititinect till -the conclusion of the opera. We are
.ha y_ L`9the state tbatt, she looked remarkably we 11.... ller Royal
Bllv ti nceavAugustt of Cambridge was Also present.
The following adventure,"
j •Ibryne, " will cause a ,thrill in the hearts of our
Xoisc:ivb Olympic Circus. Towards the middle of:
last -month,' in the neigftbourbood of Ak-Ilyssar, six Zey-
bearg. ~t 1 three •or - four persona forming part of,A.:
luestrien troop, who were proceeding fregi
k;iuuitatt. *.4la- to Smyrna. The robbers having attempted
• 'to.
.onittett lice on 'Ala_dernoiselle Romanini, she seized a
o ue of the Zeybecks, whom she killed with her
owti hand, and - 'let the others to-flight. Mademoiselle- 2o-
affanini was Vroll 1:14.4 in the arm.'.'
Turti-±„iR I ';,;•OrceTiow.---Some- time since it was
stated-that a e. Ircreliman • resident at Manchester, had,
ti?A I.)r[Viagiraii, principal of Lancashire
"1416-efideht Uorf" age, -tffered the mlinifteent sum .of 100/. ,for
'the best essay xltivl.subjett-Of Popular Nuratioh. , Several"
ireperit were s. in, and the adjudicators have at length
alwaretrl the pi ize to the Rev. B. W. Hamilton, D.D., Inde-
pendent minist cr of Leeds.

ae to
Id to
loved
;ount

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•
•
After their Lordshins nict from the adjournmeutond
before proceeding to the argument on the writ of error,
the fallowing business was gone through :
PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES.
The Irish Presbyterian Marriage Bill-passed through
Committee. •-- -
THE PCIST-OFFICE. -

On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM, a message was
ordered to be sent to the Commons for leave for Lord J.
Russell and Sir J. Graham to be examined as witnesses
before the Secret Committee of the House of Lords.—
Agreed to.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Lord SANDON and others, from the House of Com-
mons, appeared at the Bar with a message, requesting
their Lordships' consent, that the Marquis of Normanby,
the Earl of Aberdeen, and Viscount Melbourne should
attend to give evidence before the Secret Committee of
the House of Commons on the Post office inquiry.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY.(presiding for the Lord
Chancellor) informed the Messengers, that their Lord-
ships would send an answer by Messengers of their own.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 8. I
The SPEAKER took the chair at Four o'clock.
MIDDLE LEVEL DRAINAGE BILL.
-On the motion for the further consideration of the
report on this Bill,
Lord G. BENTINCK moved that the Bill be recom-
mitted.
After some discussion tha Houle divided, when there
were—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The report was then ordered to be brought up and
engrossed. - .
POST-OFFICE.

On the motion of Lord SANDON a message was sent
to the Lords, requesting that Lords Melbourne Nor-
manby, and Aberdeen, might be allowed to give evidence
before the Post-office" Committee of the House of Com-
mons.

:nt of
and I

em-
rcated
pera,
re the
at the
Pie hill.
letter,

rT TT frr,

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY FVENING, JULY 9, U 344.

tee who were themselves railway directors. This was con- '
sidered by many Hon. Members as an undue leaning towards
railway companies, and the consequence was, that two of those
gentlemen were withdrawn. The list of that Committee in-
cluded gentlemen who were known to be conversant with rail-
way matters. He would, first of all, address himself to the
charge which had been brought against this Committee of
partiality. He could not conceive/ how the gentlemen who
had framed the petitions which had been presented against this
Bill could descend to the assertion than the evidence which
had been taken was ex parte evidence. They would deprive
words of all meaning if they were to saaction such words as
these to be applied to this Bill. Why, the witnesses exa-
mined were persons themselves connected with railways.
Twelve witnesses were examined, and two of them were per-
sons connected with the Board of Trade. The whole of the
other witnesses were railway directors. There was Mr. Glynn,
the Chairman of the Birmingham Railway ; Mr. Hudson, the
Chairman of half-a-dozen railways in the north ; Mr. Baxen-
dale, one of the largest railway proprietors in the kingdom ;
Mr. Swift, the Agent of the Grand Junction Railway ; Mr.
Saunders, the Secretary to the Great Western Company ;
Captain Lewes; the Hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. Card-
well) ; Mr. Wilkinson, Chairman of the London and Croydon
Railway; Mr. Rowland Hill, who was known in connection
with another question, and Mr. Harding, the Secretary to the
Glasgow and Greenock Railway. These were called ex parte
witnesses. How, he would ask, could such words be applied
to such a subject? His Hon. Friend the Member for Read-
ing, in the Committee, said, that railway companies ought to be
allowed to call witnesses. Why his Hon. Friend himself was
on the Committee as the representative of railway companies.
Mr. C. RUSSELL intimated dissent.
Mr. GLADSTONE did not say that his Hon. Friend had
been chosen by the railway companies, but he was an active
supporter of the views of those who entertained opinions of
non-intervention with respect to railways. NVhy did
not his Honourable Friend the Member for Reading
in Committee, complain • of the e. parte evidence
In entering into tne consideration of the subject which was
submitted to them, of course one of the first questions upon
which they deliberated was the question of accommodation
for third class pasengers. The Committee felt that on this
question they were justified in introducing a clause into the Bill,
which to a certain extent might be called interference. It
would be recollected, that those parties whose avocations led
them to different parts of the country, who were compelled to
travel in third class carriages, were persons ill calculated to
bear exposure to the weather, and a clause to protect them
had been framed and introduced into the Bill.--( Hear, hear.)
There were two clauses in the Bill relating to the conveyance
of the military and the mails. There were three clauses re-
lating to the prosecution of railway companies who exceeded
the powers which had been conferred upon them by Parlia-
ment, and there were two clauses relating to loan notes. The
remaining portions of the Bill were relating to the general sub-
ject of railway reform. They were about now to discuss the
great question of option on the part of the Government with
respect to the general management of railways. And now he
had to complain of the gross misstatements which had been in-
dulged in with respect to this Bill. Those statements were,
that this Bill had been brought forward to enable the Execu-
tive to purchase or revise future railways, upon certain terms, if
they thought fit to do so. Now this was a perversion of the
real objects of the Bill. The Bill gave the Government cer-
tain powers with respect to future railways, but the policy of
using these powers was entirely vested in the Parliament itself.
The express object of the Bill was to place the whole matter at
the discretion of Parliament. The ground taken by the Com-
mittee was this, that even if it were politic to
purchase or revise, were they now in a condition, with
reference to existing railways, to entertain the question ?
The two questions they had to consider was, the policy of the
step, and whether the maintenance of public faith would
permit them to make the purchases or revisions. The Com-
mittee had scrupulously adhered to the maintenance of public
faith, and had adopted no measures which might be deemed
unwarrantable with respect to existing railways. With re-
gard to future railways they had reserved certain powers, and
having done so, they reserved the question of policy with
respect to carrying those powers out for the deliberation of
Parliament. There were some gentlemen who recommended
the purchase of all railways by the State. The Committee
were not prepared to adopt this recommendation and opinion.
He (Mr. Gladstone) would certainly oppose such a proposition.
Ile did not think that in the present state of the railway
system, there were grounds sufficient to warrant the adoption
of such a measure. This Bill left the question of policy en-
tirely open. To purchase any railway, the Government
would have to come to Parliament for the means, and then
the question of the expediency of the plan would be fully en-
tered into. It was not too much to expect, that in a very
few years as much as 15,000,0001. sterling annually would be
spent by the people of this country in the shape of fares to
railway companies; and therefore it was important that the
Government should have the powers which this Bid
conferred, if by that means a saving to the public
could be effected. Under the present system of railways
the experiment which the Government proposed never could
be made. They might have it tried between London and
Greenwich, or between Glasgow and Greenock, but not on a
large and general scale in the country. Now he did say, for
those reasons, that it was politic and wise in them as states-
men, to retain in their hands a power to be used at an after
period for the good of the public, if they found it politic to do
so ; 'or not to be used if circumstances did not require it. He
had a most strong objection to any measure that might incline
the scale either ono way or another; but that before them only
called on Parliament to maintain its own free agency. It was
perfectly impossible for the Executive to alter or revise, with-
out first resorting to Parliament. It had been said that it was
the object of the Government to keep that a close question.
He denied that such was the desire of the Government. They
rather wished to open a question that was now closed, and to
put Parliament in such a condition that they might decide upon
and settle it. It might be wise to try the working of this mea-
sure, or it might not ; he was not going to say how Parliament
ought ultimately to to proceed; but, in the meantime, Parlia-
ment only enacted that, at some future time, it might be law-
ful for Government to purchase railways. But the opponents
of, this measure may say, " Tell us, first, when you mean to pur-
chise,thena, and on what terms." It would be impossible for
Government to make any veservatiost in that case, and they
had thought they were bound to reserve a certain power, in order
to show those who might be afterwards disposed to invest capital
in improvements calculated to do much good to the country,
what would be the terms on which Government should take
those railways under their own protection. It was a very
singular matter, and the question was an amusing one. How
happened it that this Bill,
affectedio
won,: only
mteh e
it,he a
prospectiveiked
,
railways, had been unopposed by those having Bills at present
before Parliatnesst ?—( Hear, i
that the opposition arose altogether from the old companies, and
ey
a s the
I,tsh.mhaisose:wa snutthrhtehaa:att
GGtOhoot
rr
irnNi reason
whose rights the Government had paid every attention to?
He wanted much to know on what possible grounds of reasoning
he believed
bfeeluiQnvtleded.
d
Bill.
aulrseeaddy
ultimittely be drivendriven
t
tow
uel v(e.lrtry languagecw_)l,ad
they might .find. it. Belt how could Government force them
s
t
could-do nothing towards forcing them into it; and could it
believe' that the; would be drawn into any suck ruinous and
op-
pressive course... Surely they mistrusted themselves too much.
—(
Laughter.) They might surely have exhibited a little
more confidence--s—( Laughter. ) This he would say, that if
_any course could tend to weaken those companies, it was the
course' they were, then.. pursuing. He was addressing a ma-
jority of railway.proprietors in that House...._( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) lie was himself a railway proprietor ; his family
were most extensively connected with railway companies ;
and ho repeated that nothing could weaken rail-
way companies like. an undue use of their present
great power.—( Hear, hear.) Had Parliament shown any
wish or inclination to oppress and thwart public companies ?
Had it evinced a disposition to second the clamour raised out
of doors against the management of railway companies? Yet
those railway companies whose power was so strong, stronger
perhaps than any other in commanding the votes of Members
—(Cries of " No, no")—he imputed no: motives to Hon.
Members, but it seemed odd, with respect to their opposition to
this Bill, how, if they had no confidence in a future Parliament,
they could place any confidence in the present; one. They
objected that Government might at a future period buy up
some poor railway, and so make use of its resources to injure a
rich one. His answer to that was, that Government could
not do that without first coming to Parliament for the
means ; and he thought they would he able to combat
then and to defeat the unworthy Government, which would
enter the commercial lists with a stronger purse for the pur-
pose of ruining other parties. If Government were inclined
to pursue this unworthy policy then, what was to prevent them
from doing so now ? Why this, that Parliament would listen
to no such proposition. Ho thought those were the two
objections on which this Bill had been opposed, first, that
Government might bay, and secondly, that sufficient time had
not been given to the House and to the country to consider its
provisions. With respect to the first, he had already stated
his opinion upon it, and with regard to the second he
would briefly say a few words upon it. And first, he at
once admitted that if the House were called on to affirm
the policy of the Government purchasing railways, this
objection would be a strong one ; but that objection did not
apply to a measure of definite legislation. That Bill ought
to have been denominated a Bill for reserving the discretion of
Parliament—he repeated reserving its discretion, and he had
no hesitation in saying that, if those notes of the Committee
had been lost, he would not have scrupled to recommend the
Bill to the consideration of Parliament. But he asked,
how stood the objection with respect to the ques-
tion of time ? On the 30th of March, the Com-
mittee recommended, and on the 3d of April the report
was on the table of the House. More than three months bad,
therefore, elapsed since the recommendation had been intro-
duced to the notice of Members. Why they (the Government)
were the pers°" who were taken by surprise in the matter.
The report and the Bill were published on the 3d of April, and,
therefore, when Hon. Gentlemen spoke of being taken by
surprise, he imagined that himself and his colleagues had the
most right to complain. They might say, probably, that no
one thought of the report ; but he said that fewer
documents had been the object of greater attention
either in that House or throughout the country. It was ad-
verted to, and printed in all the London newspapers, and in the
majority of the Irish press. The principal railway newspapers
I, had also referred, and extracted from it, and they had praised
rthe moderation and cautious tone of the report, and all that was
done three months ago; and nothing then but the utmost con-
cord was expressed for the measure; and until other matters
came on, to which he would not then advert, that report main-
tained its interest with the public. He complained that they
(the Government) were misrepresented, and that, too, in the
petition from the Directors of the London and Birmingham
Railway. They stated that the report was not laid
on the table of the House till the 24th of May,
and that most were not voluminous Par"
pro-
duced till a fortnight afterwards. lie complained of this as
a misrepresentation. What were the facts ? The Bill was
founded upon the report which had been laid before the
House on the 3d of April. The Hon- Gentleman then read
the answers given to the Committee by the Chairman of the
London and Birmingham Railway, in which that gentleman
'expressed his opiirion that the present Bill should be intro-
duced without delay. He deprecated the esiesequences of de-
lay. By the beginning of next session, they would have one
or two hundred Railway Bills before the House, arid it
would be July before they could get at the second
reading of this Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
rhe opposition to this
Bill was composed of different elements, but he
apprehended that the reaoppose *tion was that set on foot by
parliamentary agents and solicitors. It had been stated, that
the competition between rival lines of railway would preserve
the interests of the public without the necessity for this mea-
sure. They would perhaps allow him to introduce something
by way of episode. The London and Birmingham and the
Grand Junction Railways quarrelled some time ago, and the
rival companies proposed new lines of railway for the
purpose of opposing others, and so lowering the rates of transit
to the public. Like lovers' quarrels, however, they became
friends again, and the public were no longer thought of, and so
it would be, if this measurd was not carried, in future and similar
cases. He (Mr. Gladstone) seeing the way in which the opposition
to this Bill was going on, had written to the parties whose
petition had, a 'tight or two ago, been presented, to know if
they were authorised by the different railway companies to do
so. The fact was that the movement against the till! was ori-
ginated and solely carried on by those who lived and thrived
upon the abominably lavish expenses which attended every
Railway Bill on its transit through the House. It was
those parties who thronged the lobby, persecuting Members
for their votes—the agents for the Bills—the men who iive.d on
making expenses out of them—these were the real parties who,
for them; uwn selfish and sordid interests, now got up the oppo.