The Sun.
London, England, 1826-11-23 00:00:00

THURSDAY EVENISFG, NOVEMBER 23, 1826..

HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, Nov.

Their Lordships met at three o'clock, to contioue the process
of swearing in Peers.

The Duke of Dorset, the Marquess of Conynghem, Lord
Redesdale, Lord Clinton, Lord Lake, and other Lords, took the
oaths and their eeite,—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, WEDNKSDAY.

The Speaker took the Chair a few minutes before four o'clock.
DUTY
_ON ILOYS AND MALT.

Mr. Alderman WOOD moved for Returns ot the number. of
Acres of Land iu England employed iu the cultivation of flops,
from the sth of 'July, 1825, to the sth of July, 1826 ; of the
amount of,Duties paid in that period; of the quantity exported
from England to Ireland ; of the number of Brewers in Eng-
land and Wales ; of the number of Licensed Victuallers who brew
their own Beer; and of the number of Bushels of Malt upon
which Duty had been charged and paid between the ahove-nien-
tioned times.--Ordered.
ABOLITION OF TIMM.
Loisl FOLKESTONE presented a Petition front a number of
the Inhabitants of Bristol, praying an Abolition of Tithes. The
Noble Lord represented the Petition as very respectably signed.—
Laid on the Table.

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
Sir JOHN BRYDOES, in presenting a Petition from Wotton,
in-Kent, against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics,
addressed the House at some length, in explanation of his hostility
to Catholic: Emancipation; but, from the noise below the Gallery,
we were unable to Lear a single sentence.
The Petition was laid on the Table.
Mr. SLANEY, in moving for some Returns upon the subject
of Malt, expressed his determination, if no Member of greater
experience directed his attention to the evil, to bring under the
consideration of the House the unjust, unreasonable, and impolitic
burdens imposed upon the Landowners, by the taxes upon that
article, as soon after the next sitting of Parliament as the forms of
the House would admit.

The Motion being passed to the Chair, the SPEAKER inti-
mated to the Honourable Member that it was not usual to move
upon any question which was likely to excite discussion, 'unless
upon notice given before. It was, undoubtedly, in the power of
the Hon. Member to press his motion if he pleased, but it had
been customary, as a matter of courtesy, to give notice of such in-
tention, and he was Confident the Hon. Member had deviated
from that course solely from being as yet unacquainted with the
forms of proceeding.
Mr. SLANEY, after observing that he had communicated the
object of his Motion to an Hon. Gentleman, to whose department
it immediately referred, then withdrew it.

CORN LAWS.
Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE, in rising to present a Peti-
tion on the subject of the Corn. Laws, observed, that the per-
sons who signed it prayed an opportunity of being allowed to
prove, by unqueationable evidence, at what price corn Could be
grown in this country, so as to afford a protection to the farmer.
Without some such evidence, he contended, that it was utterly
impossible for the House to do justice to those whose interests
were connected with the question. He had- a great number of
Petitions from various places upon this subject; but after the
declaration which had fallen from the Right Hononrable Gentle-
man opposite last night, that it was not the intention of his Ma-
jesty's GovernMent to take any steps, with regard to. the Corn
Laws, until after Christmas, he would not now press their prayer
upon the House, or call for any
.express determination. He beg-
ged, however, to repeat, feeling, as lie did, the para Mount import-
ance of the subject, that it was absolutely necessary to acquire every
possible information before they decided upon a matter involving
the interests of all classes in the country. The late law was not
no* in operation, and the new one was quite a dead letter, so
that there was an additional reason for requiring furthse,informa-
tion before they passed any new legislative misuittrep es • pients-
nent settlement. It was impossible for him, in the absence of all
information, to guess at the course which Government might in-
tend to pursue ; but lie would impress upon the House the us-
cessity of appointing a Committee to inquire into . the state of
ese Corn Trade; for, without such a Committee, the question
could never be settled to the satisfaction of those interests
which were attacked, Ale had been a Member of the former
Committee, which examined evidence upon the subject;
but, although-that Committee had done a good deal, it had not '
done all 'which it ought to have accomplished for a thorough
investigation of the subject. On the evidence taken before that
Committee, the Report was foundell, which now formed the
sole ground-work of their proceedings. But circumstances
were materially .altered, since that Report was laid on the table
of the House. All the new information they possessed was
derived from an experience of what had passed for the last few
months, and it therefore became doubly necessary that they
should be able, before a new Committee, to offer evidence of ad-
ditional information. His Majesty's Government ought not to
claim a title to enact new measures upon an old Report; and hi
trusted they would not attempt it. The Honourable Baronet
conclided by hoping, that whenever they did come to the discus-
sion of the question, they would meet it' with calmness, with
good temper, and with moderation ; and that no charges would
be indulged against any one class, as seeking to benefit itself at the
expense of the other ; when it roust be obvions to every friend of
his country, that the prOsperity 'of the one was the support of-the
other ; and that they must, in the' hour of difficulty, stand or fall
together.

Lord ALTHORP thought, that if his Majesty's Govern-
ment could he fully aware, of the state of agitation into which
0 classes had been thrown, by the rumour of the projected al-
teration in the Corn Laws—the manufacturing as well as the
gricultural—they would not persist in their determination of
postponing the settlement of that question from November to
February, without any, even the slightest. information as to ttie
course they intended to pursue. He was perfectly well aware
that there might be great inconvenience. in any premature disaL
closures of their intentions, but he felt bound to say, that they
were then assembled to do their duty, some of them at a great
personal inconvenience, from a residence during this season of the
year in town, and he saw no reason why they might not come to
a determination at once. He for one saw no reason to dread the
plan which Ministers might hive to bring fOrward:—(Hear.)---
He saw no ground for any alarm from the measures they might
propose to adopt ; hitt if there was, as he thought, no good reason
for delay, he would loess upon their most earnest attention, the
propriety of allaying, by a speedy and decisive resolution, that
alarm and distrust which seemed to be felt by so many others.—
(Hear, hear.)
The Petition, signed by the Inhabitants and Farmers of the
Hundreds of Abdy, Bulstrode, and Hermingtou, was then laid
upon the Table, and ordered to be printed...
ELECTION PETITIONS.

The SPEAKERCrown
Ireland, enclosing Pea-
Clerk of the in ,
.. . letter from the :be had received a
1 informedli etorns_t:lene
tious against severe
Return for the County of Waterford ; One from
complaining of the Hours
Lthoartd George Beresford,
Mr. Robert Smith, complaining of the Return for Westmeath ;
and from Mr. Peter -v, Mr. &divan, and others, against the
Ro• - - '
Return for Kilkenny. . •
The SPEAKER- then Mr. Frederick Richard
Petition? A Petition was presented from . other Election
for Denbigh.
West, complaining of the Return
there were fourteen days yet for
inquired ifthere weasany
Mr. W. WYNN said, that as ,
forty
days
for
entering into
meeting of, Parliament.
Prerefteogtticani.mgett,ititiowma'saiumlipaossstitelere twhaet"the House could come to
any decision upon them before the, next
should be nominally day, the 4th of January,
tle-tvould.propotte, therefore, that a -ay, Petitions
Parliament after
deratiOn; mid on the first day of the Meeting of entertaining
Christmas a
appointed for ' , aubsequent day should be aPP° • I
them.
was adapted bY I
fixed for taking these into cones.
The suggestion of the Right lion. Gentleman r
Rs named for en- 1
the House, and aemodingly the 4th of January w—
,,6„ two Pe-
tertaining the Petitions which had been lodged—On n'4" 4, eam-
titions from Thoinas Dish and Rowland Stephenson, ea• • ttinu
plairting of the return of the other, and for the purpose of lie . ''
„side a double return for the Petitions
complaining of undue elections for COventry and Ipswich, teere
,e BoroutOt of Leominster.
also presented. It wait not stated Ily whom 4,4 APAk.st whoo
Petitions'BllllltltreYfreA7 VL.ECTIaIss..
return these
Lord ALVIORP ow to propose -
* n renewal of the Roo- lutions

against Bribery and Corruption at Elections, proposed by a Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell), who, as he regretted, was not now a
Member of that House, and adopted by Parliament on the 26th of
List May. All' that he weuld call upon the new Parliament to
do was, to confirm what the lute Parliament had done. He was
desirous of explaining to those who were not Members of the for-
mer Parliament why the House hail been induced to adopt thew.
Audi first, he would observe that, in all discussions, in that House
on Parliamentary Reform, it wag objected to the friends of that
measure that they were advocates of dangerous and sweeping mea-
sures ; and, though any change in the Constituent Body was uni-
formly resisted, it'was stated by the opponents of the measure that
upon any statement and proof of gross abuse, they were willing to
lend their aid in correcting and removing it. They had acted
upon this declaration, as was shown in the disfranchisement of
GrampOund.' The means of showing the existence of this grim
abusetutherto were by Committees in that 116 use—by Election
Petition*, or, 'as had been shown in one instance, by proceedings)
in a Court of Law. Though the instances of corruption, it was
well known were frequent, yet few instances were brought before
the House.* This omission lie attributed, in a great degree, to
the want of a pecOliar Triburiatlieespointed and qualified to examine
into Petitions, complaining of this grievance. It was therefore
desirable that such a Tribunal should be appointed, and a satisfac-
tory mode of examination established. The Resolutions proposed
to give to Parliament no new power, but merely called upon the
useful, judicious, and effective exercise of that power which the
House already pos*essed. They only called upon the House to
show to the country that they were in earnest in believing bribery
and corruption at elections to be the great evil to the country that
they declared it to he. These Resolutions, he believed, had some
effect during the late elections in diMinishing bribery, or at least
in alarming both thosr who were disposed to bribe and to be
bribed. It would be observed, that it was not intended that
the return of any sitting Member should be effected by these Re-
solutions, pr that any of the ordinary regulations respecting Elee-
lion Petition* should be infringed by them. Among the ebjec-
time which he had heard asivariced against them, was one of the
expence of the proposed Committee on these election cases' being ,
paid by the public. But he would put it to the House, if the
expellee of public Committees, of much less interest and import-
ance to the country, were not defrayed, by the public; than one
to investigate whether or not Members should sit in that House
who had been returned by means of bribery and corruptiono-i
(Hear, bear.)—Another objection to' these Resolutions was, that
they would give rise to vexatious Petitions. But that inconve-
nience was provided for, and prevented by the discretion which
was reposed in Parliament' by which they need not take, into
consideration any case that they did not deem deserving of their
serious attention. It may be said, that this discretion in the
House may sometimes lead to partiality; but lie had no, such ap-
prehension, and he was satisfied, that on a fair and full statement
by any Hon. Member of a specific abuse, and of alleged corrup-
tion, inquiry would not be refused. These were the objections--
the only objections he had heard against the Resolutions, which
ought not to outweigh the great benefit which they must all feel
would be derived from the introduction of the most satisfactory
means of investigating and examining eases of bribery and corrup-
tion. He would only add, that it would indeed be extraordi-
' nary, and would present a contrast by no means favourable to the
new Parliament, if they should reject Resolutions in their first
Session, which had been affirmed by the late Parliament in their,
bait Session.--(Hear,, hear.)—He hoped for the credit of the
House, that such a contrast would not be presented; and cozi=
eluded by moving the following Resolutions :.--
"let. That whenever a Petition shall be presented to this
House, after the expiration of the time allowed for presenting
Petitions against the validity of the return of atiy Member of this
House, by any person or persons, affirming that any time within
eighteen calendar months previous to presenting the said Petition,
general bribery and corruption has been practiced, for the pur-
pose of procuring the election tir return of any Member or Mem-
bars to serve in Parliament for any Borough, Cinque Port, eh
place, and it shall appear to thin House that such Petition cone
taloa allegations auniciently speei4c to require further Investigation
this House will appoint a day acid hour for taking the said Peti-
tion into consideration, so that the ewe of twenty days shall in-
tervene between the day on which the said petition shall have
been presented, and the day appoiuted by this House for taking
the same into consideration ; and notice of such day and hour
shall be inserted, by order of the Speaker, in one of,the two next
London Gazettes, .and shall also be sent by him to the Return-
ing Officer of the Borough, Cinque Port, or place, to which
such Petition shall relate; and a true copy of such notice shall'hy
such Returning Officer be affixed to the door of the town-hall or
parish church nearest to the place where the election of Members
to serve in Parliament for such 80061.1 t, Cinque Port, or place,
has been tumidly held."

"2d. That at thedwur appointed for taking such petition into
consideration, this House will procetld to appoint a Select Com-
mittee to enquire into the truth of the matters contained in the
said petition, and report the result of their enquiry to this House;
and such Seleet-Con►mittee shall consist of Thirteen Members, to
be chosen by, lot, according to the directions, provisions, ruler
slid regulations, and subject to the exemptions for choosing Forty.
nine MeMbers by lot, contained in the various Acts to regulate
the trials of Controvertei Elections M. Ileturns of Members to
serve in Parliament, so far as they are applicable thereto, and of
two other Members to be appointed by this House, out of the
Members then present in this House ; and the thirteen Members
so chosen by lot, together with the two Members to be appointed
this Hottse, shall be a Select Committee,' and shall' enquire
into and try the matter of such Petition, and shall report their
opinion thereof, together with the evidence given before them,
to this House."

" 3d. That this House will not appoint such Select CM.
mittee so long as any trial is pending before a Select Committee
of this House to try the validity of the Return, or so long as a
day is named in the Orders of this House for appointing a Select
Committee to try the validity of the Return, for the Borough,
Cinque Port, or place, to which the Petition refers."

Mr. C. W. WYNN, on the resolutions being seconded, said,
that he did not differ from the Noble Lord on the general principle
that it was desirable, and that it was' the .bouuden duty of the
House to scrutinise and examine into lily reasonable piloaa facie
ease of bribery and corruption which might be brought before the
House. He would be glad to go along with the Noble Lord in
aflording the most effectual check to such abuses, but, agreeing as
he slid with the Noble Lord in the utility of the object, he differed
with him as to the means by which it was to be accomplished, and
he opposed them on the ground, that if carried into effect, they
would be productive of inconvenience that would more than
counterbalance any advantages that could be hoped to be derived
from them. The most obvious way, and to his mind a satisfac-
tory!itioonn A
et
of
present (ms tt personp
slaiticl a belonging
a ii
ng
iot
ay undueleturn at elections, was by
s i t to
the
place or borough was per-
mittedl i . a limited time. Wit-
nesses were sworn and examined, and the investigation was con-
ducted by, a Committee of that House. In other cases, provision
was, wade: by, the statute law ; and, again, in cases of conviction
in a court of law, as the best and most indisputable ground, the
Hotta* either proceeded at once to legislate and pass a Bill of
Disfranchisement, or mid* the conviction the foundation of
such a proceeding. Me did not ace how the modes which were
at present in existence could t,e improved by the enactments
re.
commended in the resolutions now before the House. Where
was the adrantage--Ae was at a la" to know—in permitting
any- person, at the expiration of eighteen
,erdentlar, months,
without incurring the slightest expellee, or without being liable
to the least responsibility, to present petitions against the re-
turns of Members to Parliament. The House must immediately
perceive the unfair and disadvantageous position in
which the
Member, against whom the Petition was presented, would stand
in relation to the Petitioner. By the Grenville Act, at first, any
person might question.the return. But lei
great an abuse did
the exercise of this permission lead, that peisom were found to
present vexatious Petitions, merely for the lake of sitting'
the Gallery of the House, to listen to its clistuteiut,
Parliament was, of necessity, intrndutted
and it was enacted, that 141.6"5`
tee of the House, to tit'"
should be saddima
fairness

.. An Act id
•'prevent this abuse, ;
•+nu were found, by a Counit-
_,,ent frivolous and vexatious Petitions,
with the costs. Again,
objected to the un-
towards a Member, in keeping a Petition. over lwc head
or so long a time. Such a threat might be converted into:the
means of extorting money, although the Party holding out the
threat might have no ground whatever for making it, Or any other
object but to obtain money by putting others to expe„„, foe there
was scarcely any borough, .notren the most pure and iwaoceut
in the country, which would not rather pay etinthing, than be

subjected to all the inconvenienee incident to' a petition, presented
and conduCted in the manner. in which °the Resolutions of the
Noble Lord went to recommend. &Sides,. it was net easy to de-
termine•always and to agree upon whSt constituted general cor-
ruption and bribery. - Some persons might consider the proof of
six or seven perscais in a borough being bribed, a.sutficient:reasoc.
to presume upon the general corruption of the place or borough ;
and if the place was a small one, us sometimes, seven or eight
would be found to coustitute a majority of the. electors ; he
(lUr. W.) would not deny but that perhaps it might be Sufficient,
iu such a case, to constitute a ground of disfranchisement ; but
then others may be of a different opinion, and because of this pos-
sible and probable ditlisrence of opinioti,he was desirous' f leaving
a; little is possible to the discretion of this House, and of having
themsel4s bourid by Statute in their preeeetlihgs oo „Loth cimi_
sions. The Noble Lord said, that the Resolutions did not go to
affect any sitting Member; but if the borough were .clisfrinichisecl
ou the ground of bribery and corruption, he presumed that it was
to follow, that the Members, in whose behalf that bribery and
corruption were exercised, should be expelled the House.
Lord ALTHORP intimated asstmt across the table.

Mr. G. W. Vs YNN resumed. • The House :oteedit to be the
i
more vigilant and cautious n the adoption'Of theSe Resolittions,
therefore, as they would , introduce a material alteration in the
law respecting not only places and borOughs, but aloe the persons
who represented theth. For his part,' he was disinclined to give
to unrestrained, irresponsible, milettered persons, such means of
vexation and annoyance as these Resolutions would invest them
with. - The Grenville Act—the policy of which he approved of
--was drawn up hi a spirit of distrust in the discretion of Par-
liament ; and he would declare again, that, for his own part, he
would prefer to see the proceediuge of the House in such matters
deter Mined by positive law, than regulated by discretion. In of-
fering opposition at present to the Resolutions of the Noble Lord,
he did so solely on the ground, that, if adopted, they would be
more inconvenient than the present mode of pros/Mitre. At the
same time that he disclaimed, ou his own part and that of his eel-
league& any'disposition to throw impediment in the' way of the.
investigation of detected cases of bribery and corruption.
Mr. BATTLEY thought- the Resolutions, of the Noble
Lord quite unnecessary. He was satisfies! with the reasons.
for opposing them advanced by the Right Hon.,. the President of
the Board of Controul. For any such abuses as the Noble Lord
complained of, the Statute Law, in. his opinion, furnished an
efficient remedy and corrective.
Colonel, DAVIES maintained, that' if ever there was a
time in which it was incumbent on the Haase to come forward
and infuse a new spirit into their legislation with 'respect to elee-i
tions, it was the present ; for certainly there never had been more
gross and more extensive corruption practised than during the
late elections. He really • hoped that these Resolutions, so ao-
lemnly agreed to .by the last Parliament, would not now be re-
jected by the present: • Of that last Parliament God knew-that
he 'could not speak in terms of, praise; ,they had been guilty of
many sins of omission and commission ,but in, these Resolus
tions they had bequeathed to the present Parliament a legacy,
which, if properly administered, might be rendered productive
of the
.greatest. benefits. The Right Honourable the President
of the Board of Con troul bad taken tine same line of argument
in his objections to the Resolutions' that be had taken before.:-.-
He told the Hoese that therwere- always competent to take up
any charge of corruption that might be submitted to -them—,
Yes ; but would they take it up ? • Did the Right Hotioural4
Clentleman recollect a Petition complaining of the interference of
a Peer with an election, but which Petition, being presented
after the time prescribed for the • presentation ,of ,'Election Peti-
tions, and being pronounced to be au Election,Petition, was not
allowed to be brought up? • Unless the House were bound to
proceed, by some specific.regulation, it would be very easy in all
similar cases to defeat the ends of justi..Besides it should be con-
sidered that ordinary election petitions eeltiont tended to .unmask
the whole of the corruption that existed in the place to which they
referred. The . object of the Petitioners was always a selfisli
one ; —to Unseat the .sitting, Afernbtxs, and to seat themselve4;
anti it' they 'could prove the existence of one or two cases of
bribery, that object was gained. But how did that advance the
general purity?—Unless it could be proved that the great nut-
jority of Electors were corrupt, the punishment of disfran-
chisementcould not be inflicted. He was persuaded that the
only mode of correcting the existing system was by the Utilise
taking it up. As to the objection that one party might put
another to a great expellee without incurring any himself, that
Could. be obviated by compelling him to enter into recognizance&
It was utterly impossible that any thing , like purity of elec-
tion .could be established until the present system. was mate-
rially altered. As it nosy stood, he defied annual!, whatever
might be his talents, and whatever his love of purity, to engage
in a contested election without beingrguilty of something like an
infraction of the law. It was notorious that in ti,ltundred
boroughs it was the custom to hunt about for a. candidate, North,
South, East, and Weat, the only condition with wboin was that
he should spend a certain sum of money ; in which case his re-
turn was insured. The present was a subject well worthy of the
attention. of the Right. Hon. Gentleman opposite, who -Was so
well acquainted with all. the.. forms comiected with it, and he
trusted that that Right Flop. Gentleman 'Would turn it in his
mind.. Let hint agree to his Noble Friend's Ilesnlittions; and let
him propose others of his own subsequently ; and be (Col. Davies)
and his friends would be found perfectly ready to concur in ren-
dering them us perfect as posesible. •

Mr. Secretary PEEL observed that the lion. Gentleman who
had just spoken had admitted the existence of that which was the
principal objection to the Noble Lord's proixisition. What was
the :House called upon to do? By affirming the Besolutions
passed at the close of the last Parliament, to constitute, not only a
new offence, but a new jurisdiction to take cognizanee of that
offence. -Now, it, might be very proper to constitute ruck a
jurisdiction ; but he was convinced that it would be infinitely
better to constitute it by Rill rather than by Resolution.
If constituted by Bill, the House would have the advent-
age of considering the measure in all its stages, of deli-
berately discussing it, and of correcting any errors which might
manifest themselves in it. But here the Noble Lord railed
upon the Heine, in one night to affirm two Resolutions, em-
bracing very important matter, the adoption or rejection of
which required much consideration. Per Mature, he would ask
the Noble Lord Wit was not very important t,, deterniine whether
or not the Committee contemplated in the Resolutions should poa-
less the power of examining witnesses on oath? That was surely
a very important point ; 'but there was no provision in the Re-
solutions respecting it, Again, was it fitting to allow a conimon
or against any corporate
informer, in possession of the means of bringing forward It charge
after the return, Without
ag
acquainting
boofdyeo rup,rtorettioaiiin
itLb:suet
vaennyteeinntliii:liodii:tahs L
that individual, or that corporate body, of his inten-
tion,being indemnified from expense, and nut deterred' by the appre-
and then to invent it to the House; encouraged to do ao by
pension, of any penalty should his 'accusation proVe falae?
it not be proper also to take at least ordinary securities to compel
any such charge to wine forwar4 and
iaiv
supportiiidual Pt4laiil
t?Yetinthge •Resolutions there was no such sechnity
required: The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, althouth he
supported the • Resolutions, entirely differed from the Noble'
Lord who moved their affirmation. The Hon. Gentloosil had
selected the last .eleetion as the most flagrantly corrupt upo%
record. If so, it was in the very face of these Resolutions
(adopted by the last Parliament), and proved their inefficiency.
This wasan additional reason for reconsidering the. kithjAet ; for
if those Resolutions were inefficient, was it ;tot ikaitable thsa '-
should he rendered efficient ? Ha (hlr. Peel) by nu --EbeY
tended against the principle* of the Reileletituls • •IlehllS eon_
that
to he donev tthat which
ot all,chitw niaaigprodm h_ the Resolutions, if pro-
should, thercfige, ed to , nut he contended
pei
thous' much better done by Bill, He
Noble Lord's ny.'• reluctantly, CM it his duty to Oppose the

.otton.
that, the Right Hon. Gentleman had
taken ratll:eArittil-pETartilaltvhgiioeuwo4f the question. It had been said, and
truly mid, by the Hon. Ittember for Beverley, that the existing
Laws were utdrnient to encourage bribery and corruption, if they
were executed. But that,was the point. There was the power
but was that power exerc6ied ? The Right Hon. Gentlernan had
observed on the long delay of which the Resolutions woOld allOw
the Petitioner to avail lmuself before be presented his Petition.
.That was true; hut, the House would have the 'towel:. tt 461
chose, to reject the Petition. At the same time he must candidly
acknowledge, that the indemnification from expellee ,j the Party
petitioning, might enable hint to harass the party.agahist t
petitioned; and that he could not sea at present how ta!, evil
could
he met by Resolution. It appeared to hip) that it could`" „