The Sun.
London, England, 1819-05-14 00:00:00

PROPOSITION RESPECTING THE SINKING FUND.

Mr. GfteNFBLL, in Ininging forward !he motion
of which he had given notice, 'said, he had taken
the liberty to address the House on the same sub-
ject in 1814. His object then. was tile same: that
he had now' in view ; and be hoped to convinee
the House, and thoSe at the head cit the .Finances
of the Nation, not only of the expediency, but of
the_necessity, in the pre-sent state. of the countrV,
of applying what they. were still pleased to call
the Sinking Fund in diminution of the loan
which t be thancelbor of the Exchequer found it
necessary to
.raise for the service of .111e.present
year. For doing so there was a distinerkgal au-
thority to
.the.elause, commonly clued the Fox
,Clause,' added by the great 1113 n whose• name :it
bone, to the Bill respoctitig 'the Sinking Fond,
.which passed in the year 1786, Anxious notto-be.
misunderstood or misrepresented .with respevit
iris :,tuotives for touching' the Sinking 'Fund, he
begged to' say, that there was no man., in or out
o'fAheFilottie_. Who valued more highly than he did.
the Sinking Fund,. such as it was onn in
lorded tO be He viewed it as a most' ancient
teat ore in the plan. of finance brought forward by
the Right Hon. Gentleman with whom it
Dated. .The object of it was
.to set Hpitrt the sum
of •I,ooo,oooLont of each loan, and secure it,' so
l it as it co old he secured, to be opplied, by ,the
operation of compound interest, to the extinction
of the National Debt; which at that period amtmitt-
ed to "213,000;0001. This plan 'was at first acted
npo.n ; but when war broke .out again new ar-
rangements became necessary. The • Act of
1792 'provided -that for every' loan, a.c.st-oking
yowl (4, one . per (Tv, should. lie P r e. d
”ri C instird the extinctiotiof the debt then
contracted' in forty-five years at the ,veLy fur-
thest. , Thus it trade each loan provide fur
its -own gradual extinction. ‘A7hatever.exnedient •
may be roposed, it would he found, niter nil,
that •rxeesS of ordinary income•above ordinary
expenditure Was the only means of providing for
the extinction of debt. Such had been the Sink-
ing Fund'. iiut what was it now With 1813,

r came the plan of the Chancellor of the
quer. When it was first proposed, lie (Mr. (4--it
Olegave his vote "against it ; on this principle,
in the then exhausted state of the country,
would not have been wise to increase the btkr(lftl
of taxation, but to give the country more breL"'
ing time. From the adoption of dot nlari. 4°s'
,ever, there had ensued an elttraordiriary degree ,
- profusion, and the country might now be sid ' t°
he waithont any Sinking Fund at all,- Front dig'
accounts on the table, it appeared that the exre'sj
not of income above expenditure, but cipeodittlre,
above income, ti"aS 13,500,0001. The Sinlii4
Fund was 16,000,0001.; so that, in fact, there w"s,
.ottly'a Sin king hind 'of 2,500,0001. It was to 11
• considered what effect Wiii likely to be produce
on the "revenue; by the distre'sses of the present
year, and 'also the charges of the loan nhiell
now appeared the Chanisellisr of the ExcheVet
really Was 'to negociate. True it was, there vol-
,
now standing in the names of the Commissioners'
a snot of 100,000)0001.; and also that the (;w?'
uthe,ioners, wept into the city fistir days, in tne
week to purchase Stock. But, only let it be null'
!,iderecl that this Stock was purchased with bur'
towed money—,--fhat new '!'.3Toe-k-was sOlir by tke'till,
che:ip to bit) old Stork de-r---10 short, that De
moo,y was borrowed at a high rate, to pay the.
old (I.lv, which Was at a low rate The winia
tochinery, erected by the Acts of 1786 and 17r0.),.
was nos" in full operation. Bat he would tl5l
whether it was not worse than useless,
that it was of no benefit but to a few prhatr 0014
vidoals concerned with it, such as loan coniraef
tors and spec lators in the Foods ? h...“ 1 be 4
come a system, which complicated and in,ol4'-
ed our Finances, and spread delusion anWn4
the public. The Ties!ion for the House to coil'
shier was, whether they would stifle at "'!ee
this delusive and intricate system, or all
,(11-
it to go on? He had seen a calculation, by .Wl"e'
it appeared, if Mr. Fox's clause had been acieti,
on, frnin .1793 to 18.13, it wotdd l; eve 13"„(1.
20,000,0001. to the public. It appeared by
Account before the House, that it, in 1815.
Commissioners had, under Mr. Fox's clause, b'el't
allowed to become subscribers to the loan, there
would have been. saving to the public; of at lel
two,millions ;übs half, while an, actual 10" tl.
72,0001. would have been avoided. He knew "
was contended that the elfec of the present 615'
tern was to keep up the price Of the Fuuds. ltt
present be had no intention of discussing the
• question how far, in time of peace, when we sr°
a redeeming country, it was advantageous
the price should be high: But he wholly denie'.,
that this system had the effect of permattentir
keeping up the price of the fonds. He bad fop;
been of opinion' that by sending the Commission"
ers with their 15,000,0001. into the City to sob;
scribe, the price of the stock by the end (4 th-7
year would be as high as by the present systein'. ,
The price of-stock, like the price of any other
commodity, mug be taken as regulated by the
PraP°"i6l) the supply to the dentaod. At (14
same- time he'knew tharmanv conscientious rnert
entertained a different opinion. Bat he watt ar4i3
the Chancellor of Cue Exchequer was on this in)ioc
i»flnenced•by the opinion of .persons who °"gi'it
not to be trusted upon. -it. There was, illf`leel.
•on'honourahl,e. exception to it—namely, 03'
an Hon.'Friend near hint, who openly told t))-
thancellor. of the. Exchequer, that if he 'nl,is ,
giVe his opinion as to.wloit would be the
beneficial plan for the conotry, it ~,;„„1,1 be frP
apply 12,000,0001. of the Sinking Fund towartlO,
the. Loan., and thus only borrow 12,000,0001. in'
stead of- 24-,000,.0001. He-should 'tor now fArillet
trouble the-HOuse, but would reserve to hnitsei
the right or saying coy thing which he ini.gbcL
think necessary towards the elucidation of 1 14 al'
;
gum'cnt , (1
consequence of what might fall "
iu the course of the debate. He. concluded ~,
Movins,,,that .ti e-I-Loose should resolve itself 1111(3;
a Committee to consider of. .Sinking font
Act., .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHrQUER said, he
'was •so far from considering "the motion less ob.'
ectionable.as it was now framed, that be cool
f
dewed it open to more objections on Piccolos'
the manner in which, t was brought fool's°
The proliosition had substanth•lly this aim, to
fey.
ter the discretion of the Government in the 101);
tier conducting its financial operations. 1-16 t I
was at fist dioinct and positive. But the 1.0:
tion now before the House, while it involve' the
same principle, was the more dangerous by bell
more indefihite: The Honourable Gentleill3l
and the House were aware that by a elaus'e
duced by Mr. Fox into the Sinking Fund A.o,lllC‘c
Commissioners were allowed to vest a-telt:Os "0.
their disposal in the way of a loan. This was, I,:
his opinion, a wise discretion ; but nollo'l4
would be less wise than to bind them (town °3
.
,
such a subject. The lion. Gentleman had st"teJ
how beneficial it would have been to the publics'
a.pecuniary point of view, it the Commissioners
in 1815 h-id become subscribers to the loan. It ''i c
trite that if they had become the subsm'ibers, a pro:1
would have accrued through them to tile public.
T le
That loan was contracted ihst before the hattl
of Waterloo—(hear, bear !)--eand certainly,
the event of that battle could have been Wry
sect), the public might have either profited in
way suggested, or she, Government might have.
framed souse other financial 'measure. But twr
would the profit have berri,.if the battle of "a;
tenon had bees' lost ? In all these cases there vitr.
a chance Of loss incurred, which was balanced by
the Occasional gain. It was at that time
to the subscribers; to know whether they wool':
take it at a cheaper
:rate,' if the Commissioner,
Were to become subscribers for a part ; bat
.stater) that thryJwould tale it .on more adra'"i.
tageous terms to the public, if the Stoking Fun(.
'Was employed in the usual way. The Treasiul.'
were, therefore,-wise in following the Course :be!
had token, if the biddings of the contractors Ivci r
Itt be relied upon. It was to be recollected, 111%
since' the coin inencement of the war, nor less Ow •
900 millions had been borrowed, and that a very
small small d,trerencein the terms of the Loans W°lli
01
have prodticed a greater loss than that
been citlettlated to have arisen front the Sinkivg
I nod. Lven the sum of 20 millions, great:lly,
was,•little mote than twit per cent. Ott hots
and the contractors had uniformly offered ni .
favourable terms on the condition of the Sinhi')"`
Fund remain/tile in optr4tiQu under the P°sgn

7;' y p

1)14,1,

were

tiqt.

fr,r
the
Par,

b
llet
to„

oce

;ql,
b(iv

tti,',
144
si,,

toti
lilt

1
ty,h
~i'~~

fli""

rtsear

' • Iran.
l'''''
. '''
" erne(
.. ',do. i• he re, corte_.. lin. r. 11.
to. 1,1
le, :Y.
ii,,,,,:; i
hr'ac..,,is r.,-... (~,,,,,div of owniuf'. „,' ' , sioners
'''''' . . '..-
.., -i. et by the utnatut.,
hic;l
Lroii, . Into the
„that t.
...,.
~...,
tel stock„.ett -
,c,,,,t ;'ell a tsca.ttoess iti the, l'e 'i't
the
same such
stet have
.taken 1 1 erCl
iie. PPlted ill nny other,} wa'c'iY to the P"btic see:-
who gave these on -
nine Whether the persons •
-1 it WnS
te inter( s ,
ffls wer vv ' 1 their iir,V3
1►
•q;kte s'
4' ei Iby .'
thel ''''',le4o siy ; not it w.ls to
was gene. .itner 'ofthe subscriber to loans
;,„t_.
i est
;,the
n„hilc, vie. ",a1
,7ity the s'ltne as that 01 1
_,__ Commis-
Stock should boar a high ptice• If the i,ioltirs were take() out of
Often happen that a privatepg:rsoi i
n. le °
s or other
the market;l,,oiit
brought
'°('''k '0 Sale ' either or the l'"'cl-"-,
„-
. ,
P.°Perty, br for art,' purpose, unless be seas
Commissioners as .a
?2ill'e nf the Broker of the Cmha"- , •ohhers,
. ,ii'''''ilier, would be at the mercy of toxevlheil
the
',..' there r. o 1 t be no real buyers'
tint v` ( . Aouse, that the
t Gentleman told the
.1-
whether the Sttik-
object,
.°1 his :notion was to inquirt's
he hopeft they
tly'lg 1!"od should be pot an emltt.so.dangerou,s
a,
eultt patiSe hefore they adopted
Itrse • A distretien Was nosy vestetdii°bthtte.nLwxise;
,4 t'1.19 . ' ' which it wont:, c
..
fetter_e Government,
~.0_
~_ House ; and
11::
t'l.
r. by a 116olutina f!"..eus,
time, he coal;
„I.loe. hot ion tvas inexpedientiat
yuli‘ine. He should
:tilt have chosen a more "" )aPiP finance
,►'et et into the topics °I.
ay iNi.„ver, which
'‘s.e tt ratermied by the Hotrotet4t. Ile which had
1 with the" present
svi,.,e 1)11, by
etionel=
,_.unith, into discoi-
-I",4Ject, and wool:I he'sittm °'
lie felt that it would
)0 in a more te,..,,ular way --tie
and ShOuld, con-
so
eit Pr,Anature for him to dos
."'t.
"tile bY
".!'s'eting
r()themotifit O„se approved of
. ti.e "t 'd AL TLi Ottis said,
if
iiLioti. Friend proceed.-
t,l.
titrineiple on which his
e,,,arce
there was
ti,t')E.y must recollect bow ; little
i, Ex
cheque t bilOU1(1..
tdo ".e Chancellor- of 1
i ; time bad elaltse_d
Pt it coositterin, how out, .
11;,,;,1114llt 'any altelnpl'lof the kind
to tee
m"airilaet.
uiltt.,
' . ."
tot any
go back far enough .
of the Funds bee
'''. 15
t.
'ut
'limn iq.ionerS of the
..e 'nett! 1,,,,d been; ahy Comm ....that
in
those
I;,':„ektlitltig I";'iliti.td at, ' 'ail. thief laltpicP:;e(l-.
.."les tile ini-tzs Of Stock bad. been as
• tit i;resen.- ' steady as.
ikli 11,'
.1
that lie could
tn
~ t ILsoN (Of L•ott4oo sat'', . i mi.
f his Hon. Frient (.
l.
(3re,ele tor the Motion o
though, if it. ha,
tt '4.0) in its present ,shape,
i,
~,
_i,,ht have ac-
e'' iii sotne de,,ree Inodifict., in- ~., a
tettu! to it. !b • .
Mr l) tLit• • ..,ICARDO said, that as t:)stebee
what
van Price of Stock, he could 11ot
in
~_wavwhieh
))4(i-Ke of this was to the (publici,ocei'l'oer
of
tite.Ex.
Zi,til.,ttl.t 117.1Iiteti(L":,i'llunbiysstil:;:„.Crsaa,ppered regularly
ic There was P(1,
Ilie,,l`e market with' their tinSt°,c---
..e
which were
.was so perfeti,
4 Coi
in
' )ssible there e°lll9
I "'Pttition • and it was 1111 P( • -•e1;11 (Mr.
't 'tiy I ' • ''t ilislion..E" • he
Cil
Oltr 'tellc,) bail alluded
of the the rikaocellor
ro the oniiiimi which
l',.,ef 4') had expressed tie. ,
of
.tie sinking
)equer as to the application t
for
c,,press..
7 Qatt t,
iti„ fie took to hiintelf no nte i
to'.ictliat
°Pinion, as it wt.,
,1 tic .1
one which he tiad long-
but-tiliaihed, and having Buret : aimed.,,.d.lic.
ti.
1111,eecsotiumhei.'
snare, , " have honourably conceal,
~
I men
14,'.," Was cons inced that ''the titer Gent e ..-
I'l4l :14(1 given their opittio:trisiteao:iiii
d sincerity.
4,411 e
..,
.. talinat occasion
, i\it 1.4 'aWith perfect g"o I House could not
be 1 ..USX.IiSON said, th4l the ;
Ie
moved for,
Witi:r'artu to gh into the Commit
,e
fQr
tithe-th view of comp, (ling, the, C"iltriti".""l'e"
the views of
tile ink ill
~, Fund to act upon
not
pre.
• [inn ' , .
aced if they were .
they
I)ared • Gtntlentati ;
•to 1 i e „,,,„, no reason why
.e
alimilfl t 0 so, i ier . , . ,
at a
• ii, As to tie
;I"esiig`) into the Conti-fume
I •,,i) puce of the
flue" of advantage from a " be ah,tracted-.
1Y I,'-' it was' one which cohld not,
bath seen
‘.BnCg 1. L.
tnlni. 1 • et& , but he .
itself,
to. ilietv that
Itile II:::
.aiosnloi 0 slant
o i Coquestion
titrey.
The Act
,cytole,ifdt
ei 4er, i • .
11,14 t t.ictisSillg it r • '-':1.1 • ybic hi I
mmissionet S.l
timviiollY inconvenient for
to f ,
Ay (-tier, the public interest
~ ~er, j t,
'''t ti,',.: '••-• GRANT said,
life
61) that it had no,t r. had beeobj objected
at
specific abject',
cea,:or
iliis fj*,ll)e time" Csuictitwaatsiissacitiii„tihoi This.
, w a'llfell oatr argument. mper: ti.)oelf.
Iltit,,,' In• Friend o as, that it was avery sEfiroliengue)
Lor,,, amid Could never be profitable for any.
L (Ity oi ,
`4 tie , (-ney at the time
'when he
rr!
ititledosnui cyh,:asyn
in
avili
I.•aittetl remit/ in his pocket., - e was. any
Itilv'l i' could be made out that the,
ihat_
tyi,et_riee
prat
in this ,v„,,., 1-,,y. supposing,
Pres 4411° strange operation performed
- cif l the b
Fundsi
istiaeltit sys,eoi in keeping the price o,wileiiir
or
nr. y• What this operation was, and hi 'h nail
in -no ~t i•t was beneficial, was a thing w tc,or his
Ll‘vti - Iv4Y been sofficien.tly eNplained.
Fund
hltntt'arl, he could not hear the Sinking.,.
11 e..l"'d Without expressing hits ()Ow?" that
tt't it
Wiserili: the whole system something ex-
l'i IllievlYi,",):)-'inus. What could be the advantage
of a Fund
tvtlieevi•••i; Taxt s to defray the expenseshentfit than
tliat
nfwas to 1 .no greater
- pit, duce
see a aceurmklaling at interest
,1. He could not
WlliohtlY °,bjeetion to his Hon. kriend's..thaotriOeteld,
040 -tlated to a suhject which all were
nowhere so
hell Ohio to be discussed, and could Le
itir(l.4ettssed as in a Committee.
tlie
o•.CALLAGitatithat may be
s ot the
1-104sPittion of Ceotlemen of both s" e- he.
whatev.eir
t 4-.1 eon tiro proposi;11,11 How before them .c'on..
~. ,
v:_olght 11 '
'a—
‘vl4lll' I the discussion must be
...
qicert
~ lal(
'l‘ :.100 ") ,that in the fourth year of peace,o:wg
live 'B'.illions, - we-otight to have area( and tree-
''f A ,111,1" rig Fund, not a nominal one... The.dciaysie.
tt,i.‘°;,,,.'lltry Was the same as that °l'an. Ted a
ftlim•e•tAn mai) would say he had established
slit,,.liquidatitig his debts, if tie c0u11(_1..9.17.1
itit' au excess of ordinary income .o.ver. ii•.
tf Y exeoditre. fo'eatablish a Sinking Fund..
t•
tit 141'1" l''e must either reduce our' expenditut e
l. kiy.liZeie ott!
.income. Ont of an entering of
year a millions, which the , Estimates of the..-
?‘ 14 Iv tl'°lloted to•(thirty-niiie• millions whei,e_-
ed the fie(' and 06.1 reducible), he'
d'
ul
Ddri:
:•;., toinnriPtacticability of effecting any material
""t re "I' ° expellee ;- but when fie considered
.
lour,
there
t()
„,, 's or the country, he thought , 'Y be raised. And it be were asked ,
the
howlo-
, -oldidilsetit (listless, nurortnnately too 4 enera.`,
r,
l'''ar • be
teti,oved, he 'would- answer,' " Rais,e,
iY
fire Ailr.n.on'et *din! e!.tablish a real Sinkingl7l•l°.(l;
ii 4‘
i 4 tO.luil",l4lt felt himself 'much entharrassretittl:ey
t .11011Qatiou t,e motion. It it had been t
°I the :thinking Fund towards any
fit,t

Loan, he s'hotihi without hesitation have Voted
for it.

Mr. -GRENFRLL then replied. He held in
his t►attd a statement of the price of the Fonds
ever• since the Peace. It appeared from it that.
the. Three Per Cents. had risen from` 61. -to
83, and- were now at 73. If this• was called a
st'eadiness,of-,price, he was at a loss-to/know what
could be.meant. by fluctuation. It was said, this,
Was not a prOper time for cimsidering thiS subject.
But he would wish to know when it could be More
appropriately considered than at the very time
when a loan was about to he contracted for? He
had no besitatiOn iit statinv that his object ❑ow
was, by some means, to make it imperative on his-
Majesty's Ministers-to act itt the way which he
proposed,. At the approach of a loan it was al
ways the interest of those
,intending to contract
tiikep down the price of stock;'and accordingly
they had now fallen.
Mr. WILSON explained.—The House then
divided—

For tke motion
Aguingt it• ll7
Majority against the motion ....-78

SA LT REVENUE.

Mr. WALLACE, pursuant to his notice, Tirse to
'submit to the louse a mOiion relative to the Salt
R'e'Venne. ' it; WS ' Cite Al nt y :cif, Me II on s e`, .when
' it found cerraiti.tatcs necessary, to take care that
there should bees ,little expenceand as littlecattse
for'iilliscontent as Pcosiible in the iniWe. of collecting.
it-. Ott a former occasion he ha'd remarked; that
the, number •of prosecutions, tinder the:. Sall
Laws, were very tew—not
.more than eleven . in
twenty years. To this it had then been replied,
by an Hon' Member, that although the prosecu-
',tions'were so feW; that the number of compro-
mises .were immense, and amounted to manylhon-
sands, Fortunately there was, now upon the table
of the House an account of the number of com-
promises,- trona which it appeared that the total
number of compromises within the .11st year was•
only thirteen. L.- fast evil which he wished to.
remedy, was that of keeping bonds hanging fur a
long period over the heads of individuals' under
threat of prosecution.' This he intended to re-
medy bv—an' enactment, tliat i.i a notice of prose-
cutiottwas not served within a liinited time, the
bond should become null: Another provision ,
Would be, to protect the• revenue from fraud; kar--1
der the pretext of losses for salt earl it'd by sea ,-.:..
He should not now trouble the House with a fur, '
titer account of the enactments of the' Bill, lie
was anxious that it should be passed through the
first stages as soon as possible, so as to be printed.
He concluded by moving for leave to bring= iu a
Bill to alter agd amend the Exei)e Law.s, 'so,tar-
as related to theyevenue tioin'Sa!t.. . -

•Ml'. CALCRAFT seconded the inotio'n. One of
the greatest ..:uffeters in tile
,pre,ent-law was the.
poor fisheiniath There were diffs-refit classes of
persons interested itt the ,hartiship.s inflicted by.
the salt duties. They ought certainly-to be re.!
lieved. He woultlnot. now entflinzu!.parlicidars.
Although he eutcrtairied serititnents
widely at valiance. with-the tio6. ge,iitlental., yet
he cheerfully supported the tool ion.
Mr. THEmAyto, front What we cemild. hear;*as
Against the !notion.

Atter some more observations tretin several
Gentleinen, tbe•queStion was Put, and leave given
to brilig in the Bill.

ENLISTMENTS IN FOREIGN SERVICE.

The ATTORNEY•GENERAL'ro-e In bring Inward
his motion to prevent BOish Subjects from len,
listing in the Set vice of Foreign Powers. The
House was. aware that the sovereign -had the
power of preventing his subjects front enlisting
into the service .of coulories wilt whom we were
in a state of neutrality. By the Act of Geo.rll.
this- was made a capital offence. The object Of
this Act was to preserve, as strictly as possible,
a neutrality between this country and any other
States at war with each other. The words of the
statute were, !het any subject who
under any. foreign: Prince, Potentate, or lower,
&c. But a doubt might arise. as tc. whether
British subject enlisting boo the service of any
district or country not acknowledged as a State
or Power,. did or did not conic within the
operation of this law. Though it would be ab-
surd to'suppose that British subjects were pre-
vented
,from engaging in the service of an ac-
knowledged Prince, and yet allowed to engage
other places, where the people were perhaps .in
rebellion
,(though_ be did not 1-I.leait to use that
tel on this ocestsiony against their-country.;';'
though it would be'abstird to suppose this, yet to
prevent all misconception of the Statute, he meant
to add these words to the Statute—" ColonY, dis-
trict, or other place, &c." This welild only have
the effect of placing persons, who wished so
to enlist, on a-foOting with the lest of his Ma-
jesty'4 subjects. By the 9th and 29th Geis. 11.
all British subjects were prevented from violating
the neutrality Vreserved by this country with re-
spect to foreign Powers, under a lienalty-4)1 felony.
He could not see the reason 'why, while the sub-
iects of tors country were distinctly prohibited by
law from entering 'into, Or enlisting in the ser-
vice of any foreign established., -or what was
'deemed legitimate, Government, ,without the per-
mision of the State, any doubt should. boullowed
to remain as to such enlistment withany person
0r- persons assomlng Or exercising tbe-poweis of
a tnieign Govertith6tt: The prohibition-as to. the
established Governments was clearly marked by
the 'Statutes of George 11., but that as to any
other Government or people, Was not mention-
ed in any statute. , Therefore, although the
principle of this prohibition was recognized by
our common law in all cases, he thought
that it ought to be declared .by- scatote.;: foe'
the law ought to be distinctly consistent :
bot in producing this consistency, which was
the object Of hiS. Bill, he proposed to reduce
the penalty prescribed by the Act of George 11.
front felony to misdemeanour, and that .'such
should be the' penalty towards those who enlisted.
in tile service of recogvized Governments to
which that Act appi:ed, as well'as towards those
persons or colonies by whom or in which the
powers of Government were assumed or eser-
' eistd. That the enactment of • such a megsore'
was proper and necessary in order to maintain'
oeotrati v, especially in :a contesc between any
recognized or parent State and the Colonies con-
nected with it, was a proposition, which? be

11ICS.

thought, could bardly be withstood. It might be
said,' that as • ft :was-aeainst the' law of any State
that its sitteleets shonbl,enlist in the service of an-
other State without the permission of their Sove-
reign, or violate the neutrality of the State with
which they Were COuriebted, the proposition whiCh
he submitted was utinecessary,- But the ob-
ject of his propOsitioo was to render the.
law quite explicit and indubitable, and in
this object -be was proceeding upon the spirit
"of the Act of George the Second, , To carry that.
spirit into complete effect, ;lie proposed. that the
law should he equal iand congruous With regard to
the enlistMent of British subjecti in the service' of
foreign Powers, wlietliGr those Powers were
.ac-
knowledeed or unarkuowledged by our own Go-.
vernment. This was the first purpose of his pro-
position •; but there was another yurpose also,
nainety, pro Vole that no assistance should be
afforded by our subjects in. the fitting out or fur-
nishing ships for .warlike purposes to any bellige-
rent Powei-s with which this country was at
pea Ce. Such a -provision was so obviously ne-
cessary to-maintain -neutrality,, that be could, not
-.anticipate any, _resistance to its :adoption., as it
would he preposterous to sty, this country •
was neutral, it, for instance, in thedispute between
Spain and its Coloiries,ait allowed- ships to -be
'equipped:and ampplied- with , aminunitiori for war-,
like purposes on the part of
.the South American
COlouies, Spain was precluded from any
such accolmnodation, To ,establish this provision-
was the second- object of the Bill which he pro-
posed to bring forward, and the necessity of such
a provision; with' a view to the preservation of ,
Our neottality, -could not be questioned by any
oi)e acquainted with what was going, forward in
various.. parts for the- purpose of seconding the
people- of South America. It was not by any
means -his intention to }prevent the ships of
either of the belligerent parties from reeeiviv
a supply of provisions 'in the ports of. this enp,
pire, but merely to prohibit the supply of war-
like stores. From what. he had stated, he
apprehended that., no objection.could be made to
his motion, unless it was intended that a distinc-
tion should be made between- powers that were
acknowledged•and tlnlie that were not -acknow-
ledge& by the Government. of this country, and
that a decisive advantage should be given to the
latter.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—Such a distinction
woad be in' violaiion of the common law of the
land, as %veil as of the spit-it of the. general law of
nations. 'fbe measure then which be proposed
was only lo be :regarded as a declaratory
which was called for by pecoliar circomstatices,
in order to proelaim the will of Parliament, and
to guard against any doubt as •to the nature of
the law. 'Cie Learned Gentlemao :concluded
with moving for leave to bring in a Bill to pro-
hibit British subjects from' enlisting in firteigui
service, and the fitting out, or equipping of yes-
.sels ,for warlike purposes in any of bis Majesty's
ports, without the license of Government. .
Sir J. Maelettviosu said, if he could conceive
that the measure now proposed by his Right lion.
and Learned Friend were intended merely as a
niitigation of the Criminal Code of the country,
he should not oppose it ; on the contrary, he
should approve of a measure which went to repe'al
the capital•felony created by the Soatites of the
9th and 29th of -Gen. 11. , These Statutes were
among t!"ose which it was his intention to bring
befere the View of Parliament, the more partico-
latlY because they seemed to have arisen from
temporary circumstances. The Attorney-General
scented to have considered those Statutes as trained
for the purpose of preserving the relations of peace
and amity between Foreign Powers. Stich was
not the, case---they. were framed to prevent the
formation of Jacobin armies ineFraoce and Spain:
The presetit law, however specious its dile or its
juStificatory motives may appear,ecould not de-
ceive any :person with respect to its obj!ets. It-
might- wee:l have been entitled.an Act to prevent
his Majesty's subjects from giving:any assistance to
the iq.v.ilyol Spanish Colonies in Soutle',Ame
ries. On this the House should ponder much be-
fore it sanctioned one step of, this meastire.--,
With respect to the general principle laid doWn
by the: Learned Gentleman, relative to the power-
of Governments to enforce the neutrality of their
subjects, no doubts could he
,entertained on the
subject. But why were not the Ministers satis-
fied with the powers consigned to them by the
common law, or why- particularly did they at this
amoment come to Parliament for additional powers; '
,Could it be believed that. they did it with the
desire of preserving au honest neutrality ?--It '
was the - duty of neutrality no doubt, to en-
force the laws strictly apiust all persons who
would violate it ; but it by the very operation,
of those lawS one party appeared to derive an ad-
vantage. not enjoyed by the other, it was not
the duty of a ,strict nentraiity to interfere, and,
atter the commencement of hostilities, alter the
laws that previously existed. 'The object of the
present low•was•to make the condition of one of
the contending, powers worse than it was before
the enactment of such a measure.. The situation of
those who engaged in the service of any insurgents
was, generally speaking, much worse than that
of those-who entered into the service of aeknow-
hedged powers. In the latter, they would be en
`titled to the protection of the laws of nations;
`hot in•the former, they were liable to be treated
-as insurgents; and subjected to the attendant pu-
nishment. This. alone was a sufficient cause why
tile name of Insnrgeut Governments did not ap-.
peer in the Acts. of George 11. But on this sub-
ject he should make no further observations for
the present than. observing, that the proposed
:measure formed but part of,a very ticeadse and
ougenerous, policy pursued by the Government of
.this Country with regard to' the contest that was
tarried on between Spain 'and. her revolted Colo-
That policy .was reprobated by the great:
tnajnrity of the •people
-of this Country, not only
as being opposed to their generous feelings on be-
half of a people struggling to•obtain their
from the yoke of an oppressive Government, hot
as hostile to their best interests. But:, nor with-'
slnith•fg: the.sitong impression which-bis-Majes.:
ty's Mieisteis seemed to entertain against the Co-,
Iteks ie !mir struggle, for_ freedom, befrust et'
God; tht• inhabitants of South America would:be
:eventually streeesstol I •

CASTLiP.RAGII said, that' he Liatl- been
gieatiy.da,zhted 11iLli the eloquence of the lion.

Member, .hut regretted extremely Are nature
,of
he language which be had uset!. It wits any
thing ()tit the languag.e of neutrality. It Was our
duty, his Lordship observed, to prevent an abase •
from existing against thaT Power., :frith which:
we have many important and acknowledged rela-
tions. He desired to put it to the feelings of the
House, whether they would estimate their duty
by the degreeOf weakness which might exist nit
the part of a friendly Power to assert its fights
Spain had power to support her
demand, she would have a right to call for the
introduction of a laW similar to that whiCh it was
now proposed,tt bring in, end if her demand were
not Complidd co to plied wit h, she would have a right
to resent it.—(Heart)-=Every one approved of
the l'rriclaniation which had last year been issued
by his loyal highness the Piince Itegent'; requir-
ing that a strict neutrality shOUld be obser'ved ;
hut it was absurd to talk of neutrality, when it
foreign power can strew that regiments are pre-
pared, iota ships fitted out from this counzty.=-.
(Cries of hear ! 'from the Opposition side.)7,4le
Otve.d.4n apohigy to the House, and to the coun-
try, and to the Worltl, in order 'to explain
the Bill in questicin 'bad not been brought
ward before now. We utiderstacal-his
ship to say, that the delay was occasioned`
by cert.ain diseaSsions Which had- been
jug on respecting the dispute between Spain,'
tmcl her-Co.koiei, but that these discussions were
now at an' end.' While the CommOn Law of the'
conntry applied so 'little to the present situation,
it was too Much for the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman to attack his Majesty's. Government 3o'
much on a subject of legislation,-.to *llia other
countries, equally interested in the result of the'
war carried on between Spain and her colonies,
led fhe'way; What had the United •States of
i~otth Atherica dope relative to qtat"war ? Was
it to be accounted unfair in the Legislature of
Great Britain to follow the example of United
States ? It ivas perfeetly inconsistent with the ge-.
neral line of duty adopted by this conotry,, for it'
to sit longer quiet, and ifot.tri endeavour to pre-
vent its subjects from ioining the standard raiS--
ed by foreign criVonieS' against their•p,rent state.'
It was prohibited to levy forces in this country
in'favour of Spain, and why should it not also,
he prohibited to levy them in.. favour pf her Co-
lonies 1 His Majesty's Government was' desirous
of fulfilling the Treaty which had :been entered
into, by Great Britain, and which
,had.been, Mild
before the .House, tiny following the principles of •
strict neutrality, in relation to froth conntries.7-,
He felt himself, therefore, bound to protekfigaitist*
the Proposition of the Hon, and Learned.Geotre--
'man, aod he. therefore entreated.. the Howe ~to:
protect the good faith and honour of the country,
which %,ere solemnly pledged for_ the fulfilment
of the Treaty.
Mr. ELLICE avowed himself favourable to the
extkosion of liberty to every part of the, Globe
The introduction of the present Bill he had viewed
with jealousy. There Were nearly 10,000 British.
subjects at present in the service of the Sontlt
American Colonies ; did the Noble Lord propose
to render the law retrospective, so as to affect
them Was it the intention of the Noble Lord
to send a fleet to the Pacific Ocean, for Ithe Ole._
pose of taking away th,. 2 or 3000 seamen who
had joined the Patriot service ? He had risen tri.
state his fixed determination, which was, to op..
pose-the -Bill in every stage during its progress
through the House.
Lord CASTLEREAGH explained. The Bill was not
to have a retrospective effect ; as it 'would appear
from the clauses, when the Bill would be 'laid.
before the House. _ _

Mr. ELLice aske►l, whether the penalties of the
13il1 %you'd not be inflicte►l on the subjects of
Great Britain, who after the Bill woul►l have
been enacted. by the Lejslature, might choose to
remairiin the service of the Patriots

Mr. G. Lana expressed' himself unfavourable
to the introduction of the Bill. If his Majesty's
Attorney-General 'Chose to-bring in a Bill, it
ought to he..a Bill which would he temporary, •
and as such specified in. the preamble, than,
one tending to aiter'llie law of the country.
It ought to extend the operation,- of the old
law rather than introduce a new and. Theold
one was a measure of defence-entered into to
prevent the subjects of this, realm from enter-
iag into the service of any Prince, King, tic
Potentate, but no foreign State was specified. He
would tell the Attorney-General with positive
eertaialty, for it was what he had gathered front
his statement, that he was about to create a new-
law—a law which had no fotiodation on either
justice or good policy. Ile could not but lament.
that this country, which was always considered as
the parent muse and the gnardian of liberty, should
now he induced to chain down the spirit of liber-
ty, when it was about to have new subjects in.
another freecountry.
Mr. WY NN approved of the alteration proposed
in the old law, so far as to reduce the penalty on
enterbig•ioto foreign service ; because experience
shewed, that, although even in the reign of Geo.
11. several individuals entered into the service of
Foreign States, the laws remained as a dead let-
ter. lie also approved of the Bill, hecause he
thought it not consistent with the principle of
neutrality that
~one party should have an "ad-
vantage over another. Ile objected, however, to
the clause wh1,14 constituted the second offence 'a
capital felony.—(" It is trot. capital," from the
freasury Bench.)—lt was of little matter.; for it
was ,not likely that an individual who had suffered
the flue and impiistinment with Which the Court
worthd probably visit the Offence,. would again
offend against the measure.
Colonel DAVlt3s concurred in the 'sentiments of
Hon, Friends who had opposed the Bill, and
who, in so doing, be was sure, spoke the senti-
ments of nine-tenths of the people oPLngland.---
If statutes of George 11. Were obnoxious, let
them be repealed ;. and let Ferdinand,.. being
placed on the same tooting, try what he could do.
It was a hard thing tolsee brave Officers, who had
bled in the service of their conntry,'now varying
no a small pittance in this country, and yet pre-
yentel,trorp going abroad to promote. the rising
rtes America.
Sir OHN NEWUOBT. said, bat the Noble Lord
Eva Waned so much time result of 'a trial of
methationobetween Spain and liereolonies, as the
cynic of the negociation lietween Spain And the