The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

station of life in Liverpool. He believed that the operatives
—members of his own constituency—in Bethnal-green
were much worse off than the operatives in Lariee.sh*.
He .dreaded that this -measure of the Noble Lord, in-
stead of realising all the benefits which he anticipated,
would tend to aggravate a great many of those evivs.
He (Sir. W. Clay) could only say that he had bestowed
considerable attention upon the matter, and he would
bar his- share of the' responsibility, by expressing his
coincidence of opinion with the Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite, that the reduction of the amount of the opera-
tives' wages would be nearly 25 per cent., instead of what
the Noble Lord had stated. It had been said that if
there were- no 'Manufacturers in other countries, prices
would rise, but that was not the case; they were running a
rate Withvarieue foreign natio n s,a nd had to combat against
a very strong and, powerful competition. They could
not•haretWo Separate prices for the home and the fo-
reign markets, for that of the home market must always
be regulated by. the foreign one. The principle sought
to be laid down might -do very well for the large manu-
facturers, who exported tothe amount of thirty or forty
millions,. but it would: certainly tend to produce a eor-
responding diminutimi of lab Our ; and he would entreat
'the House to reflect well upon the wofill effects which
follow, and had-folloWed, the. dearth of employment
which the inanuftieturing districts suffered 'under some
time ago; and to consider if the objects proppsed would
compensate for the enornious'defakation of employment.
The Hon. Member for Ashton, when alluding to the
report of 1834, proposed. a 'remedy for this state of
things. • The .Hon." Member proposed that the country
should endeavour to persuade foreign nations to adopt a
similar course of legislation with' this country. But he
(Sir. W.:Clay) was afraid,the House • could not see the
likelihood
.ef sneeeeding, in effecting this object- 'He
confeased that the Noble• Lord teemed to him (Sir W.
Clay)to -have.irribibed• some peculiar: opinion that the-
profits Of the manufacturer were so enormously large
that they could afford.so far to sacrifice their incomes as
to pay the operatives: for - working only ten. hours the
same sum which they did for twelve 'hours' Werk..--
(Hear, hear.) , In. the ' - present superabundant
state of the money market he did not see
hoie—thi,.-Noble. Lord could form such.. an opinion.
The large papitalista.would not , stiffer so much, it was
true ; • but it would press most severely on all the lower
clais of persons engaged in-manufacture ; for if .a bur-
den was imposed upon the master, it must, most as-
suredlyi,fall upon the operative and in the speech of the
Noble Lord, he, laid particular-stress upon themedical
evidence,. which stated a female in a state of pregnancy
ought )1(4 ty
,13g compelled . or ,permitted to :work for
twelve hours•a' day 'Now' he "(Sir Clay) would ask
the .Noble Lord•one 'question, which',he thought would
show that. this was not -so • good a point es the Noble
Lord seemed to imagine: ~The question .he would ask
the Noble Lord'wis, if it was fit that a female should,
• when in. such a condition, be allowed to work forten
hours----;thetime*nteniplated by the Noble Lord's Bill ?
He conceded that-the Bill- afforded facilities for the. de-
teCtion Of-ft.:wind ;'it alsor.prevented women and children
froni.working in factories frOns night till morning. • In
theserespeets-he agreedivith it But he wonid:ask the
.Noble Lord whether lie might not direct his benevolent
efforts. to -other departnients of labour? • There was
scarcely any department of labour in which the efforts of
the Noble 'Lord were not more
.wanted. The Noble
Lord had shown that highest of human qualities, enthu,
siatm in well-doing, without which nothtng, great could
be aCconiplished. .He entreated him,.therefore, to direct
his attention. toother brandies of industry morerequiring
hiscare and theo, instead of having a narrow'majority
in that flCuse-(Hetir,.hear.)-7-he,wptild be supported by
its ,unanimous voice and the universal approbation of the
community. ,
Mr.'IIIONCIITON:Iif.II;NES said, •as a Member con-
nected with the great: manufaCtiiring district of the
. West, Biding of Yorkshire,' in which . this.. question
excited so much interest, he hoped he should he excused
,from shortly addressing the House :on this question.p
• He, rose under, a conviction that it would be his duty to
oppese the Government, with which he usually acted
he felt a conviction that the epiirse.the Government had
taken on this"question Was attended neither. with benefit
to the-country nor dignity to themselves.—(Cheers from
' the Opposition.) _ In the course of last. session, the
Right-Hon. )3aronet the' Secretary of State for the Home •
Dertment broeght forward another Factory Bill;
'Th y it was anet, and how it was foiled.
-He did ..think -that, in.yielding-to •the Agitation .mani-
fested, the Right :Hon: -Baronet took a course' as
little; ,then ',his' persisting in his'present
eoursp Was-nowr4dheers.) .Had .the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet then persevered,
.he fin- one would have been ready
to haVe,ritlted his seat to have, ,Supperted him. Under
whatadifferent aspect-the question came before them
at Present, to.
,what' it, did last year.-.. The agitation
Which theßight, lion.. Baronet now met, a.i.d .so stre-
nuously opposed, was one that had lasted ten years,
which excited the most vivid attention and the deepest'
•
interest among large pOrtion,of the:people, and which
Was now confirmed by: a solemn decision of that HOuSe.
—(Hear, hear.) They. were ;no* asked to come down
un Sa'rare 'an occasion U); rescind the solemn resolution
Of that House,' come to after an adjourned debate of three
days,' with Out any _pretence of casualty or haste, be-
cause. the GOvernment wished to take advantage of
any: chance 'Contingency that might enable
it to reverse the' lOrmer decisiOn.—(Hear, hoar.)
The Hon.:Member for the 'foster Hamlets who had pre-
ceded him had undertaken the difficult task of shOwnig
:that the whole .matter Was a 'dream Of philanthropic
enthusiasm on the part of the' Noble Lord.; • he held out
the state of the factoi:y children anda-wortleii as so satis-
factory that it was :almost impertinent in that House to
interfere with them.' He had hoped that that question
had ;been settled tbr ever. He had hoped that they all
knew that thousands and thousands of- children in the
manufaCturing districts were being ,brought up in a eon-
(Hon. more degraded Allen that of a slave population—
(Oh, oh)--4hat thousancli :perished annually on 'the
threshold of manhood,.Physically and morally unable to
meet the difficulties of life.:—<llear, hear.). In the present
year, as in:the last; the 'Government had come cloWn to
:the House with a Bill interfering with labour.. He
considered the speech .'of the Right Honourable Baro7
at the bead., of` the. Governtnent against this ' picip,o7
sition, .appi,ied with much greater force against the prin-
ciple of any interferenee at all, than against the modifi7
cation,of it, which was prOpOsedbY.the Noble Lord the
Member for Dersetshire. All that the-Noble Lord had
propbaed wtta,tlitit the children, after passing, the age of,
13, should .not be. put at ,oneo,to the dreadful toil of twelve'
hours A day. The Hon.• Baronet, the Member for the
Tower Mallets, 'had. tried • to make out that twelve
hours' labour a day was extremely light; and such as he
himself WOuldoot mind kindertalang. 'He said thiS on.'
the authority of Mr. Senior; but he believed if the
`Hon. -BarPnet and Mr.-Senior had but a week'S
•-riende. of it them Selves they would come to a very dif-
ferent opinion on that subject.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Milnes) attached more 'weight to the opinions
of Dr. :HaWkins and -the, medical men of Man-
chester, than the statement of Mr. Senior,
who from his villa at Itnightsbridge 'paid the manufac-
turing districts only.* flying visit. But there was an-
wa rats ofhteli questioniaseeuto f
thi
St9prwolipiciPshitibone' Wonishtheed _to prefer_
feori
-the operatives. Wherever the principle of .wages had
itththefitp
been scientifically laid down, he' had always understood
that there were four elementS by which the amount of
wages was regulated ; these were pcipulation, capital,
,the fluctuations in the price of produce, and the standard
of living.. Neither"of these, taken separately and instt-
rated from the rest, could have any effect on wages— •
they all depended on each other. He could not believe,
_therefore, that a small reduction in the mapufacturer's
prbfit could have such an effect in reducing wages as
teemed. to be apprehended. , :He would solemnly
ask the , Committee to, look well at what
they .11 ere • • doing before they rescinded -the
former decision:of:the HouSe. He asked them to consider
under. What a different 'aspect the question came before
;them now; Let them remember that it had gone forth to
every village and hamlet in the Manufacturing districts
that there was now a majority of the representatives of
the people who had declared it to be their opinion that
children ought not to be worked more than ten hours
a-day. At that moment the people were speaking of it
to one :another telling, each other that the noble
exertions of :.the., -Noble Lord. shad at last accom.
plished the object for which he had contended,
'by ten years_ of unwearied exertion on his, part,
and of unceasing hope, on theirs. Could the Go.
Yerntnent 'aiippese that a decision .of the House,'
.
-verging the formee vote, obtained. by 'any 'means they
'night command; would' have the effect, of turning hack
the river from its.course, or:Mike the people of England
...forget the decision of the former night ? They would
.not forget it,. and if they were likely to do so, his Noble
Friend would. take care 'that they. did not. But
he thought it comparatively •of small - importance
what might •be the result of the - vote of that
evening ; the fate of the measure was settled.
The Ten Hours' Bill was as much at that moment the
law of the land, as any other partof the interfering Bill
of. the Governnient He sincerely and heartily grieved
that the Government had set itself against the OpiniOns,
the sympathy, the good feeling, and religious sense of a
large portion of the people of .England; and he would
sit down by humbly imploring the Committee to resist
the 'dangerous course the Government was pursuing, and
not, by so persisting, drive his Noble Friend to some
desperate ' extremity --(Cheers and laughter) front
taking a step in which, he believed, he would be sup-
ported by a majority of that House—that of. laying at
• the feet of her Majesty herself the prayer of the people,
imploring the interference of her benevolence and noble
feelings against the short-sightedness, or rather the
,blindness, of the Government.--.-(Cheers.)
. Mr. VERNON SMITH said he felt called on to'
vote for a Ten Houreßill. The whole argument of the
oponents of the ten hours' system rested, the other even-
ing; on the ground that they ought not to interfere with
labour at all. But ho found that the Government
had interfered in the Bill with the freedom of labeur.
-'---(Hear, hear.) But it might be said that children and
unmarried females were not free agents. That, he was
sorry to say, was the case with regard to a great portion.
of the Male population of the country • and it was not
exclusively applicable to females that they. were not free
to dispose of their labour. It was more in the power of
the master to say to the laboorer !` you shall work,"
than in the power of the • labourer to- say 4.1
will not work. They interfered with labour on the
ground .of the helplessness of the children, and because
the system was tending to unhinge society altogether.
Perhaps there might be "some dOubt as to the propriety
of interfering with -labour at all, for in 1833 the pres-
sure was found to be so great that persons of all parties
were determined -upon interfering-on behalf of children.
The question -now proposed to hiin was, whether he-
thought A child was capable -of-.working twelve' or ten'
hours ?—(Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in answer-
ing such a question, and saying that'he was decidedly in
favour of ten hours as the proper Limit (Hear, hear.)
He believed no person:would say that the children could
Work twelve hours; a. clay, without injuring their moral
and: physical: constitution.-H,; hear.)• The 'real
argument against the ten hours came' from. 'the 'Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De-