The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-08 00:00:00

SUPPLY

The Order of the Day for the House going into
a Committee of Supply baying been read,
Mr. HOBHOUSE asked whether it was the in-
tention of the Government to persevere in pressing
the Additional Churches Bill.

. _
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said he should give an answer to the question to-

morrow.

The House having resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of Supply,
Sir H. HARDINGE moved that the sum of
18,0001. be granted for defraying the salaries of the
Civil Establishment of the Office of Ordnance.,

Mr. HUME said, all the statements of the Right
Hon. Gentleman were perfectly clear, but he (Mr.
H.) could not agree with the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman on a former occasion, that the mi-
litary service was reduced to the lowest possible scale.
In saying so, the Right Hon:Gent. probably proceeded
on the notion that this country ought to, keep an
army always ready to take the field ; but he (Mr.
H.) thought that this country ought to avail her-
self of her insular situation, and make a reduc-
tion of her military force in time of peace. He
complained that the recommendations of the Finance
Committee had not been attended to, and he believed
that the vote of a former night- showed what re-
gard his Majesty's Government intended to pay to
those recommendations. He thought the estimates
on the table were for a force which this country
did not require in time of peace, and they in fact ex-
ceeded similar estimates for the year 1828, which
were greater than similar estimates for 1792, al-
though the Finance Committee had recommended
that our Military Establishments should approach
at near as possible to the establishment of 1792.
In 1792 the Officers of Engineers were 72—in
1822, 202—and in 1828, the number was 250., A
similar increase took place in the Royal Artillery and
Norse Artillery Establishments. Such being the case,
he did not know upon what grounds the Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated that the military establish-
ments of this country were reduced to the lowest
possible scale. The increase of charge for the Artil-
lery establishment, since the year 1822, was not less
than 50,0001. and the Artillery force now, in time
of peace, exceeded the strength of that force during
the American war by no less than 2000 men. The
whole force of this country in the year 1792, was
66,000, in the year 1822, 101,000, and in 1828
that-force was increased to 129,0001. He considered'
we were keeping up a force wholly unnecesary, and
the expenses of which prevented Government from
reducing the burthen .of taxation, which pressed so
heavily upon the industry of the country. After
some -further remarks,
,in the course of which he
contended 0110 would be proper economy to break
up the Ordnance Department altogether, and bring
it all under he controul of the Commander-in-Chief,
the lion. Member in conclusion observed, that
when the vote respecting the numbers to be kept up
in the artillery was moved,.he would move as an
amendment, that they be reduced to 1,000 men. If
the Committee were really disposed for econottiksl
reduction, they would not hesitate to support his
amendment.
Sir N. HARDINGE said, as the Hon. Member
had dwelt. upon the increase 'in the %general expen-
diture of the department, As compared .with 1792,
he would beg to say .a few words as to that point.
Ulm compared the forces of the artillery at the two
periods, and allowing fur the number of men in the
new colonies, the excess would not be more than
:2 e mens
the men still in Portugal, the
es
This part of the subject the
Committee would find More fully explainedin:Page
51 of, the evidence., ,rAs:to,the_excess of which .the
excess would
, including icl
517. This
Hon,: Member. as compared with
the statement would be found in page 306. In that
the Honourable Member would find the difference
clearly explained. The whole .sum in 1792 %YRS
442,00014, and at present 939,0001.; deduct-
ing .he superannuatiens in each case, over which
the Ordnance had no controul. Now, if the lion.
Membertonsidered. the increased pay of the soldiers,
the difference in .. their efficiency at present,,ecan-
cared with 1792, he would find that there was a

much better force for the same money.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member expressed his intention of prrr-
posing the reduction of 1,000 men from the artil,
lery. The House would recollect, that when two
years aao he proposed an increase in the number of
men in each artillery company, there was scarcely
any objection to his motion, fOr at that time the
corps of drivers was put down so, that in reality
there was not an increase of more than 200 or 300
men. - He would not now enter into Particular items
in which. reduction had been made, but he thought
that great credit was. due to the Duke of Wel-
lington for having cut de‘ en in those branches of
the department in which reducthi.nwould not be inju-
rious, and increased those by which Ore most effective
service could be rendered. With respect' to the
salaries of clerks, he could say, that in many sta-
tions the ray was the, same in 1822, and 1792 as in
But whether that was so or not, the
question
was, whether the clerk of the present day %ea..' over-
paid ?. He could state, knowieg the situatior: of
many of the clerks, and their extra hiboOrs, the laCe
hours of the night at which they had frequently trr
remain up, to make out returns for Parliament, and
their general activity, that the remuneration they
received was by no means an overpayment for their
sercitfe,. On the contrary their payment was as
• low as it well. tonic; be. After observing that the
sumgestion thrown (pit by the Hon. Member of
throwing the whole of the Ordnance Establishment
under the care of the Comnimmtler-in-Chief, would
be found utterly impracticable,l;:e Right Hon. Gen-
tleman concluded by stating that ,Ire would reserve
himself for any farther remarks on the detaih'.ef the
estimates until the items to which they would refer
psarittotsheataifretliteualtte
were before the Committee.
mber
ol‘f-Te2.,000
fori‘ArrbeMrdAeeßriEwß•oLulYd
men, he would support him by his vote.
Sir KYORKE considered the artillery to he the
right arin.of the British army, and he would consent
to no proposal which would have the effect of ten-,
dering it less effective.
After a few words from Sir 11. HARDINGE, the
vote was agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 1,8461. for defraying
the expenSe of the gunners at the garrisons and bat-
teries of Great Britain and Ireland for the remainiug
half of 1828.
The next was 37,409/. for defraying the expense.
of the corps of royal engineters and sappers and
miners, and of an establishment for the instruction
of sappers and miners, for the remaining half of 1828.
Mr. HUME complained that the number of offi-
cers of the engineers had beer increased from 7Z,
which it was in 1792, to 250.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 130,9231. for the Ro:i:el Regiment
of Artillery,
Mr. HUME trusted that Ministers world use
every means to economise with reference td this
grant, which he contended was most enormous, Old
in which there had been a large increase since 1822:
Sir JOSEPH YORKE would not vote for the
reduction of the artillery -by a single man, al-
though he would willingly get rid of all unneces-
sary stich.as those the duties of which
were discharged by deputy.
Mr. MABERLY asked now it was possible to re-
duce taxation, unless by reducing such establishments
as these ?
Sir JOSEPH YORKE said the way to relieve
taxation would be to lay a good round tax on thn
fund-holders, who were best ible to pay it.
Mr. MABERLY asserted that such a proceedin
would be most unjust.
Mr. •MONCK protested against any 1
sueargu-
ment.

Sir J. YORKE did not Mean to recommend any
such a course, but he wai desirous of expressing his
belief that' the country Must be protected against
both foreign and domestic enemies. He would be
sorry to see a single penny devoted to any improper
object, but this certainly was not such a case.
'Mr. Secretary PEEL could not hear Honourable
Members on both sides of the House alluding and
replying to the proposition of a tax upon the fund-
holders, without protesting against its being thus in-
troduced. He was certain the Hon. and Gallant
Member could not seriously entertain such an idea.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote for 1,1,7951. for the Horse Artillery,
Sir J. YORKE thought that the Rocket Corps
might be.dispensed with.
Sir .H. HARDINGE defended the vote.

Sir J. YORKE repeated his objections to the
rocket traoooping that they would not be thrust
down the throats of the people of this country.
After a few words from Sir U: HARDING-I: and
Mr. HUME the vote was agreed to..
The,next item was for 614/. to, defray the charge
of the Director-General and the Department of the
Field Train, which, after a few words from Mr.
Hume, Sir G. Clerk, Mr. Moberly, and Sir H.
Hardinge, was agreed to.
The:next vote .was for 4,559/. for defraying the
expence• of the Medical Establishment of the Ord-
nance Department.—Agreed to.
The next item was for 2,023/. to defray the ex-
opefnctieleof the
Royal
Civl
AililOifliis,
al.eyerAeLrofsso
elneyats, a
t. \vnodolkhlvte
itesiti.l,
Agreed to.
The next item was for 78,8491. for defraying the
expence of the extraordinaries of the Office of Ord-
nance.

Mr. INIABERLY said that the Finance Com-
mittee had recommended that this department also
should be taken into consideration with a view to
reduction. One item in particular he lamented to
find in the Estimate, namely, 9,0001. for defraying
the expence of the trigonometrical survey of Eng-
land, a sum of 30,000/. for a similar object in pro-
gress in Ireland having been already voted iu the
present Session, making in all 39,0001. voted in one
year. The estimated expence that would attend the
completion of the survey of England, Ireland, and
Scotland, amounted to no less than 311,000/., which
added to 165,0001. already expended in England.
5,0271. in Scotland, and 75,980/. in Ireland (those
three items making 246,0001.), would raise the cosh
of those projects to 600,00(11., a sum too large for the
country; under its present circumstances, to devote
to such an object. The lion. Member should take
the sense of the House on the vote.
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD said, should
his Hon. Friend press a division upon the vote, he
(Mr. Maberlv) would do so contrary to the sense of
the Finance 'Committee.
Sir J. YORKE hotel the vote would be with-
drawn.
Mr.AVARBURTON, supported the vote.
Mr. BANKES (Dorsetshire) did not think it
that a correct
necessary exPe"se7 •
Mr.fLir!;aorSil‘'‘E,asßuteve-aesssca4l‘;pitrion,
map to the equal and just
• assessment of the County Rates. Ireland might pay
• out of her own resources the expence of her survey.
Sir H. PARNELL was sare the sin vcv might
he saspended without inconvenience.
'Sir H. HARDINGE said, nany advantage.; would
result from the survey.
Mr. Alderman WMTHMAN protested against
this item of expenditure.
Mr. W. HORTON defended the estimate.
Mr. 111-Txur
toougot it was better to suspend th;
Work for the present.
Mr. V. STUART supported the grant.
Mr. MABERLY must say that no case bad yet
tecri made out in favour of the vote.
Mr. CROKER defended the grant.
that the vote be,
.11) ed
1V14,5A080/ERLY then moved
.
The House divided, when there appealed for tl e
intendment 9, against it 120.
The following grants were then agreed to vv ithuut
opposition :-
4,3391. for the service of the Ordnance not pro.
fided for by Parliament in 1827.
58,554/, for the Offices of Ortlnance in Ireland,
!tier dedueting 3,5001. for
,the sale of stores, &c.
150,2440'0t the. superannuated retired half-pa:
ar'}l„ widows ni otlieer.-, in the Ordnance
Great Britain 'and Ireland.
`l.2,titiav (9/ rue UIIQWWICe tts cvinpvloaucm foe tljL

emoluments, and 64, superannuated and retire allow-
ances of person lately belonging to the Office of
Ordnance Great Britain and Ireland.
.50,2:3-7/. for the Barrack Department of Great
Brits after deducting 9,9001. for rent of canteens, &c.
4,2,6401. for the Barrack Department of Ireland,
after deducting 11,1001. the saving of former grants,
re it of canteens,

52,658/. for the Military Store Branch.
80,6121. for the Military Works, Barracks, and
Buildings in the Colonies, deducting 3,0001. for rent
of canteens, &c.

The sum of 80,6201. was moved for, to defray the
vxpenec of military works in the Colonies for the
ix!uaibing half of 1828. •
Alter some conversation, in which Mr. Maxwell,
Lord John Russell, Sir H. Hardinge, Lord Howiek,
Mr. Stanley, and Mr. Huskisson, took a part, the
vote was agreed to.
1,0001. was then voted to the Treasury and Ord-
nance Departments, for fees.