The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 21, 1844.

parent and child, the effect of which would inevitably
be to deaden the natural feelings of nature. The
present Bill had made a great change in the law with
respect to factories—it had provided with respect to
women that they should not work over a certain num-
ber of hours, supposing that a woman was net com-
petent to make a bargain as well as any one else.
He would not object to the Bill further, except enter-
ing his protest against it, believing that the best
course to adopt would be to leave those who laboured
in factories to legislate for themselves as to the time
they should work.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY explained.
The Earl of WINCIIILSE A. considered this Bill
to be a great improvement on the present law, but he
could not but express his regret that the limitation of
the labour of children in factories had not been re-
duced to ten hours. lie believed that the atmosphere
they breathed was of the most pernicious character.
They could not compare the agricultural labourer
with the manufacturing labourer, because the former
breathed fresh air while the other inhaled
the most obnoxious vapours. He thought the
Legislature had very justly established the principle
of interference.. Ten hours was the extent of labour
which the great body of the agricultural
labourers in this country underwent. Such a
picture of misery among the agricultural labourers, as
the Noble Lord had drawn, did not, and could not
exist ; but he trusted the time would come when the
manfacturers themselves would find it to their advan-
tage to limit the hours of labour of children in their
factories. _ _

Lord CAMPBELL supported the Bill. He could
not agree with his Noble Friend that the Legislature
ought not to interfere, because he thought there were
cases in which the Legislature ought to interfere
with labour. He thought they could not safely go
further in the reduction of labour than twelve hours ;
and he believed that there never was an instance of
less labour than that of the manufacturers of this
country, with the exception of the case alluded to by
Sir Thomas More with respect to Utopia.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lotd, having read an extract
from the writings of Sir Thomas, proceeded:—
Until his Noble Friend could persuade him that the
statement of Sir Thomas More with respect to Utopia
was correct he (Lord Campbell) should persist in
supporting the Twelve Hours' Bill.
The Earl of HADD IN GTON said that her Majesty's
Government had been accused of inconsistency with
respect to this measure. He could not for a moment
understand upon what ground this assertion had been
made. It had been said that her Majesty's Ministers, in
the other House of Parliament, were exceedinglyan x ions
that their supporters should give votes in accordance
with the wishes of their constituents, and they de-
termined upon relying for support with respect to
that Bill upon their political opponents. Now, he
could not allow this foolish assertion to go forth with-
out protesting, in his place in Parliament, against it.
A more absurd proposition was never put forth, for it
was ridiculous to suppose that any Government could
resort to such a feeble attempt to obtain support for
any measure whatever.
'The Earl of MINTO objected to this measure, not
on the ground of its not going far enough, but on the
ground that it went a great deal too far. He was
entirely opposed to any interference with adult la-
bour whatever.
The Earl of lIADDINGTON and the Marquis of
NORMANDY briefly explained.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE, in reply, denied that
the Government had used any influence to turn the
majority in the other House of Parliament in their
favour. He believed that the agitation which had
been got up in the country upon this question had
been got up for improper purposes.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to he committed on the 31st inst.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW WRIT.
On the motion of Sir J. CHETWODE, a new
writ was ordered for the-borough of Buckingham, in
the room of Sir Thomas Fremantle, who, since his
election had accepted the office of Secretary at War.
The Whitehaven Railway Bill was read a third
time and passed.
SHEFFIELD. ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, AND
MANCHESTER RAILWAY.
On the motion that this Bill be read a third time.
Mr. ESTCOURT said, that an arbitration clause
had been introduced into this Bill, which, if passed,
he thought would establish a dangerous precedent.
He would, therefore, suggest that the third reading
of the Bill be postponed for a fortnight, in order that
a person might be sent down to Ashton, by the
Board of Trade, to settle the disputed point, and that
a clause founded upon his report should be in-
troduced into the Bill.

not aware, from the notice, of the extent to which the
Right Hon. Gentleman intended to go. He confessed
he did not see why greater facilities should be afforded
to speculators of this kind than to any others. It
had been proved before the Committee that one
hundred labourers had received five shillings each
for signing five different names, subscribing
5,0001., in order to make out the list for the

prospectus. That was by no means a solitary case.
Nov he could not see any inconvenience, when a rail-
way was to be constructed, in having the
subscription lodged in Exchequer bills. He thought
that 10 per cent. was not a large sum to deposit. He
had doubts as to the propriety of making these ex-
ceptions in favour of Railroad Bills. lie asked that

be-fore assent to this proposition, the evidence on
which the Committee had determined should be laid

upon the table. lie thought this discussion should
be postponed until the evidence should be before the

House.
Mr. LABOUCHERE despaired of being able to
add anything to what had fallen from the. Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Trade. He

agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that
when these undertakings were little understood it
was right to have 10 per cent. deposited, but now
that they were better understood such a regulation
was no longer necessary. At a time too when so

many persons were wanting employment, it was es-
pecially desirable to encourage these undertakings.
lie could confirm the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman that the subject had been fully discussed
in that Committee before the recommendation had

been agreed to.
Sir R. PEEL admitted that the House was not

bound by the recommendation of the Committee, but
still, when they had appointed a Select Committee,
although their recommendation was not binding on
the House of Commons, he thought it was at least
entitled to the respectful consideration of the House.

The Committee was composed of gentlemen ad-
mirably qualified to decide upon the subject,
and who had the advantage of deliberating upon
it ; but he took higher ground upon this occa-
sion. The carrying of this motion would materially
facilitate the passing of the Bill for the construction
of the Dublin and Cashel Railway.—(Hear, hear.)
This railway had been undertaken without any
Government grant. It had been undertaken
by persons of every party in politics. It was of great
importance that the example set in this instance
should be encouraged. It would tend to give employ-
ment to the labouring classes in Ireland ; and he
hoped, before the close of the session, that the Royal
assent would be given to a Bill for the formation of a
railway between Dublin and Cashel.—(Cheers.)
Mr. VERNON SMITH wished for the postpone-
ment of the discussion ; he thought the reason given
by the Hon. Gentleman ought not to influence the
House.

Mr. GLADSTONE said the recommendation did
not extend to more than three or four lines.

Mr. R. FERGUSON said that keeping the order
as it at present stood was a practical fraud, and he
proved that it did not afford the slightest security.
After a few words from Mr. MASTERMAN,

Mr. HUME replied—He had heard no answer to
his objection, and he should, therefore, take the sense
of the House on the question.
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman had mis-
understood him; he had not supported the recom-
mendation for any specific Bill, but for the advantage
it would give to the formation of railways in Ireland
generally.
Mr. WARBURTON supported the motion for the
postponement.
Mr. HUME thought the question ought to be ad-
journed till they got the evidence taken before the
Committee printed. The Hon. Gentleman moved,
that the debate be adjourned.
Mr. GISBORNE thought, if the question was put
off upon the ground stated by the Hon. Member for
Montrose, it would have the effect of putting it off till
the end of the session. He hoped the House would
at once agree to the resolution.
After some observations from Mr. Hulls and Mr.
GLADSTONE, the amendment of Mr. Hume was with-
drawn, and the motion was agreed to.

nication with private individuals on such a subject.
If in the subsequent communications which they had
had with such parties they had seen reason to alter
their views, they would have had no hesitation in
proposing the necessary alterations, but having had
the opportunity of communication, he was bound to
say, that the Government saw no reason whatever to

modify the plan which he had proposed on May 6.
All the principles he then laid down he was prepared
to stand by ; he had seen the proprietors of Bank
Stock, the Directors of the Bank, representatives of
. .

,oint-stock and private banks, and he was not enabled

to gay that the Government felt any willingness to
depart from the plan proposed; and he must ask
the sense of the House upon that plan as ori-
ginally proposed. But there were a few observations
on the_ details of the plan which he must now make.

Ile had proposed that the issues of the Bank of Eng-
land should be made partly on securities and
partly on bullion ; the issue on securities to
be limited to 14,000,0001., and the remainder

on bullion. But there might be circumstances
in which the Bank might be required to in-
crease its issues ; supposing that the circulation of
private joint-stock banks should, from failures or
voluntary agreements, be reduced from eight millions
to four millions a month, the Bank might be re-
quired to increase its issues in order to sup-
ply the void thus created. That issue he pro-
posed should be made upon securities, and that only
after a communication made to the Government,
and with the consent of the First Lord of the

Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
the President of the Board of Trade. He did

not reserve that power from any distrust of the
principles he had laid down, but to meet the
particular case of the concession on the part of
banks of issue, and the necessity of the Bank of
England, supplying the deficiency with its own notes.
At the same time he considered it advisable, if pos-
sible, to prevent all interference in this matter on
the part either of the Executive or the Representative
Government. Yet, at the same time he considered
it would not be advisable to give the Bank the power
by law of increasing its circulation except in certain
cases. He was not quite clear that in every case in
which there should be a void created by the with-
drawal of other circulation, it ought to be in the
power of the Bank to increase its circula-
tion on securities.—(Hear, hear.) Suppose the
case to be as it was at present, that_there_was a large

amount of bullion (about sixteen millions) in the coffers
of the Bank, the Bank would have a circulation of
about thirty millions—namely, sixteen millions in
bullion and fourteen millions in securities. Now, of
the circulation of the sixteen millions of bullion, the

greater part would be dormant in the coffers of
the Bank, for about twenty-two millions would be all
that would be required for the circulation of the
country. Now, in such a case, if a void were created
—say in Cornwall, for instance—by the withdrawal
of 200,0001. of country bank notes from circulation,
he was not prepared to say that the Bank ought at
once to increase its circulation upon securities;
but if hereafter it should be necessary for
the Bank to increase its circulation on secu-
tities, he thought that there should be some check
upon that power. He therefore proposed in the
preamble of the clause to recite what grounds in the
opinion of Parliament would justify the Bank in
increasing its issue on securities. These were—first,
the failure of a country bank; secondly, the with-
drawal by a country bank of its issues ; or
thirdly, an undertaking on the part of a
country bank to withdraw its circulation
if the Bank of England would substitute its notes in
the room of those of the country bank. This recital
in the preamble would show what was the intention
of Parliament. He proposed that the Bank, in case
it should consider it desirable to make an increase in
its circulation, should not be permitted to do so, ex-
cept upon application to the Executive Government,
and that such consent should, be given by her Ma-
jesty in Council, such consent to be pub-
lished immediately afterwards in the London Gazette.
He preferred that to giving power to the Bank under
any circumstances to increase its issues, though he
was certain that while the present management of the
Bank continued, that power would not be taken ad-
vantage of; but it was desirable to have a check, and
he therefore proposed that they should not increase
their securities, except with the sanction of the
Council, and not to permit an increase of se-
curities, except on the distinct condition that
the amount of all securities should not ex-
ceed two-thirds of the amount of issues—that was
—that the issues on the increase of securities should
be in conformity with the original principle, and should
be reserved if the bullion amounted to one-third of the
total issues. There was another point of great im-
portance connected with the issues of the Bank of
England, to which he did not advert on the last occa-
sion. The question was, what was the definition of
" bullion ?"—(Hear)—whether did it include silver as
well as gold, and whether the Bank could issue notes
or silver as well as gold. It appeared from the returns
made by the Bank, that with them bullion meant
silver as well as gold. Should they include silver in
the amount of bullion upon which it should be lawful
for the Bank to issue notes. This was very important.
They had not entered into any engagement with the
Bank on the subject, so that they were
perfectly free. He knew their strict and rigid ad-
herence to the principle laid down would confine the
issue of notes to the possession of gold alone. If they
limited the issues to the possession of gold alone, it
would not necessarily deprive the Bank of the posses-
sion of silver, because the Bank might appro-
priate a portion of the banking funds to the
possession of silver ' • and abate silver in its
banking department ; but as this give no re-
turn, he thought it was hardly fair to expect the
Bank would accede to it, however enlightened
their views might be. If they prevented the
Bank issuing any portion of their notes upon silver,
they must expect the Bank would hold very
little silver for the public accommodation. He
had given some consideration to this subject, and
he believed that considerable inconvenience must arise
if they altogether prevented the Bank from issuing
any portion of their notes upon silver. He was not
now speaking of any compromise of the great principle
that gold was the only standard. The only legal pay-
ment by the Bank should be in gold. . if a
person presented 50/. in notes he should have a right
to demand fifty sovereigns in gold, and if he took gold
of the real standard weight, he should have a right to
demand notes in exchange. The transactions of
the public with the Bank, so far as gold
was concerned, should be perfectly unrestricted,
making a reduction of about lid. difference
in the gold to be delivered in exchange for
notes, and the gold to be received from the Bank
upon the demand of a person presenting the
notes. That was to say every person
should have a right to sell gold to the Bank, and
demand payment in notes, receiving 31. 17s 9d. per
ounce for gold he presented, and that he should have
a right to demand gold in exchange for his notes,
receiving at the rate of 31. 17s. 10id., thus allowing
lid. for the expense of coinage. Of course he pro-
posed to make no alteration whatever in that respect.
Every man was to be unfettered in his right to de-
mand gold in exchange for his notes. But the ques-
tion was,
,should he permit partial dealing with
the Bank with respect to the receiving of silver. He
hoped the country would not admit the substitution
of silver for gold, but at the same time they
were exposed to the inconvenience which arose
from other countries adopting silver as the standard.
At present the silver was sent out of this country
in exchange for gold, and the gold was deposited
in the Bank. If they would permit the Bank
to pay those who were willing to receive it in
silver, when the Bank thought it expedient to
do so, the charge of that export and import would be
saved. There was another reason why silver should
not be altogether excluded. Remittances were now
made to a very considerable extent from America
and China in silver. If they prevented the Bank
from issuing silver altogether, there would be no
demand for it in this country, and it must
seek a market in foreign countries. Then,
again, there was a great facility for conducting
universal transactions with some parts of the world,
particularly with India and China, in having a
stock of silver. If a part, had the option
of getting silver from the Bank, he would be
enabled to get remittances when they were necessary
from India or China instead of having to send to the
Continent for it. it appeared to him that it would
give facilities to commerce, if they permited the Bank
to issue some portion of its notes upon silver, treating
silver as a valuable commodity, to be dealt with
according to the option of the Bank. Silver had
now ceased to be a standard of value alto-
gether. Formerly ss. 2d. an ounce was the
Mint price for silver, but there was no reference
now to 'that standard. Their silver coin was a mere
token, and ss. 2d. an ounce did not at all designate
its value. The amount of legal tender was limited
to 40s. ; at the same time he thought there would
be a great advantage in having a stock of silver
in this country which would be used for the rectifi-
cation of the exchange. He was inclined to propose
that the Bank should be allowed to issue a portion of
its notes upon silver, but that the amount upon which
it should so issue notes should not exceed one-fourth
of the amount which it issued upon gold; that the
Bank should issue notes upon four millions
of gold and one million of silver. But
then if the Bank found it necessary to increase
its supply of gold, it must itself be responsible for the
loss sustained in the conversion of the amount of silver
into gold, because no legal demand on the Bank could
be satisfied in silver ; the Bank must, therefore, run the
risk of the loss sustained by its conversion. Still
requiring that gold, and gold alone, shall be received
in payment of a debt—still maintaining the great
principle upon which this measure was
founded, he proposed. to give to the Bank
this advantage in rectifying the exchanges, and to