The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

THE SUN,

'above nanied•Frederiek Bond Hughes, Charles Ross, and'
John Jackson," with respect to the duties to be per-
formed by them in Ireland. Also, a return of the
amount paid 'to the above-named ..for expenses during
their attendance at the trial of the Queen against
O'Connell and others. Also, a return of all moneys paid.
to the late or preSent proprietor or proprietors, mana-
gers, conductors, or persons in the employ of the Morn-
ing Herold and Standard newspapers, or any of them, on .
account of communications or information made or
given. by the said parties, or any of them, to the Govern-
ment, in. refereOce to the repeal agitation in Ireland;
distinguishing the tithe's at which the said communica-•
tiona or informations were furnished, and the period at
which the several sums of money were paid; Also, the
name or names of • the shorthand writers appointed
to furnish the Government report of the proceedings
at the trial of the Qoecu against O'Connell and others."
He said, in rising to call the attention of the House to the
motionof which-he had given notice, he did not wish to
obstruct the moron of the Hon. Member for Rochdale,
nor to de!ay the House from ping into the Committee of
Supply. He rose-in the "exercise of the undoubted right
every. Member of•that House possessed, of calling on the
Government, before v oeng any additional supplies, to
exp7ain the manner in which it had already applied any of
those sums of money that had been placed at the disposal
'of the Government, for the purposes of the public service.
-More especially was it the duty of that House to look
*into these matters when there a as good reason to believe
that the sums-already voted hid been applied in a man-
ner not creditable or honourable. He believed that the
object of the recent State prosecutions was, in the first
place, to vindicate sv hat was •called the majesty of the
•law, and, in the next place, to obtain an increased respect
for the institutions of the country by inspiring public
• confidence in the wisrioin and justice of the law.—(Hear,
hear.) He had carefully attended to the debate which
'had taken place lately in that House, having reference to
the State trials, mid he had thoughtfully weighed the
evidence given at them, and he must say he found it
totally impossible, in the whole transactions, to find
any portion of them creditable either to the judge who
presided, to the • jury who were impannelled, to the law
officers who instituted the 'proceedings—to-any, indeed,
of the parties concerned, but especially to some of those
persons who were witnesses on the part of Crown. The
branch of the subject to which, on the present occasion,
he wished to call the attention of the House was, that
relative to -the • conduct pursued by the Government
towards- the press, and those connected with or em-
'ployed by it. An arbitrary Government had two ways
of destroying the liberty of the press -either by per-
secution, • or by corruption by straining the law
against the press; or by 'corrupting the persons con-
nected with it. The present Government had pursued
.both these courses. •: They were not satisfied with cor-
rupting the members of the press, but they attacked and
persecuted • inch-a way as he was perfectly satisfied
the law would not justify. That question, however,
would be distinctly brought forward by an Hon. Mem-
ber_ at - a • future time.; and he wou'd not, therefore,
trouble the House with more than one observation in re-
ference to it upon the present occasion. He would just ob-
serve; that such a charge—the charge of conspiracy—so
framed and.sosupported, itb ad been recently in Ireland,
never had been, and never dared be, attempted in Eng-
-land.- It was contrary to the law, and that had been
distinctly ruled so on a trial in the year 1840 at Lan-
caster,- not only by the Attorney-General, but by the
presiding judge on the occasion, Baron Rolfe. They
had seen in Dublin the strange sight of Mr. O'Connell
being made responsible for articles published in
Dublin newspapers which he never saw, and of making
the. 'newspapers , and the proprietors responsible for
speeches which otberS uttered and they never heard.
At that trial the Attorner:General and Baron Rolfe
.distinctly stated that the. only party responsible for
the articles in a newspaper was the proprietor, and that
even the editor .was not to be held so, although he might
be one of the parties -Charged with the conspiracy. But
this was not the:subject to which he wished to direct the
attention of the
.House. He wished to call their atten-
tion to - that portion of the subject relating to the
_reporters who had been employed by the Govern-
ment, and those 'Connected -with 'the public press,
who had been corrupted by the Government, to aid their
purposes in these trials. He asserted that if the object
of those prosecutions•had been to create a great moral
influence, all the transactions in connection with them
ought to bear the light. 4 the day, • and there could be
not the slightest objection to making them public. He-
thought the- conduct .of-- the Attorney-General for
Ireland towards Mr. Bond Hughes was most. extraordi-
nary, and he (Mr. Duncombe), in exercising his right as
a Member of that House, in moving for these re-
turns,
.did not in the slightest degree intend
to impugn. that gentleman's conduct or' character
It was quite clear, from the speech of the counsel for the
traversers, that ..they acquitted him of any underhand
:proceeding. '1 he party, therefore, who had most reason
to complain of the conehictofthe Government was Mr.
Bond Hughes himself. With respect to the mistake
that. had
.been made in the name of Mr. Barrett, it was
quite clear that the Attorney-General for Ireland was
perfectly aware of.it .; and it was- also quite evident that
the Crown solicitor and his-Clerk were- also perfectly, cog-
,•nisant
_of that mistake,,arid could have rectified it by the
dash of a pen, and thus- .pUt an end to the persecution
to svhich that gentleman was
.snbjected. It was also
quite clear that Mr. Bond Hughes when he attended on
the Crown solicitor -told him about the mistake with re-
spect. to the name of 'Mr. -Barrett. Mr. Kemmis, after
Mr. Hughes had been indicted for swearing to the
fact, still persisted in his .endeavours to have it
proved.. He (Mr. DuncomLe) thought this most
discreditable to Mr. Kemmis. In the Pilot news-
paper of the 26th of January it was remarked that
when Mr. Barrett went to lodge informations, he had no
means of knowing whether Mr. Bond Hughes was wil--
fully wrong, because he could give no in-
formation or explanation on the subject.—(Hear.)
It was also remarked that Mr. Kemmis, the Crown So-
licitor, stated before the magistrate that Mr. Hughes was
not in the kingdom. He said he considered the present
proeeeding a most extraordinary one, for Mr. Hughes
had remained several days in Dublin after he swore his
information, and -):et no attempt had been made to
impeach . his veracity. The magistrate, it seemed,-
refused the summons, because he thought that the,
granting of it would prejudice the prosecution, , as
Mr. 'Hughes was out- of the, country. Why, would
the House—.would the country believe that Mr. Hughes
left Ireland by the desire-of the Solicitor of the Crown?
-(Hear, hear.) -was told that unless: he left Ire-
land his life would riot be
,safe. Why should not his life
be safe? Could they not have made his life safe imme-
diately, and have quieted all the denunciations directed
against him by stating publicly that he had not corn-
.mitted wilful perjury ?,---(Hear, hear.) He understood
from the friendS of Mr-Hughes that he was not at all
aware that he was to be a party to. informations, and
that he would rather have cut off his right handthan
consent
:to be a party to any.—(Hear, hear.) Mr.
Hughes was not a person who would descend to become
a common informer. The fact was, he was deceived by
the Solicitor for the Crown, having been told that he
was. only swearing an affidavit, and verifying his notes,
whilst it _turned out that he was laying an information.
• —(Hear, hear.) -Was such duplicity ever practised to-
. wards any individual as was practised on this, occasion
towards Mr: Bond Hughes? When Mr. Hughes was sent
'over,- he was desired on his arrival in Dublin to go to the
• Attorney -G eneral, It appeared that the Attorney-General
being out he went, to Mr. Brewster, and from Mr.
Brewster lie received his instructions. It was for these
instructions that ,he - now asked, together with the sums
of money that had been paid to Mr. Bond Hughes
.; not
that he believed that any aura of money could compen-
sate that gentleman for the anxiety of mind which he
had suffered, and the injury which he had sustained
during the: period that he regained under .a
(Hear, hear.) The Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, and
all the parties connected, with the Government, were
perfectly aware that Mr: Bond. Hughes had rectified
the-mistake which he had inadvertently committed.
He said, therefore, 'that Mr. Bond Hughes had great
reason to complain. He (Mr. Duncombe) would like to
:know .what sum Mr. Hughes. received as compensation ;
and whether
.he was as well paid as another individual,
he meant Mr.. Charles Ross.. He (Mr. Durncembe)• had
now done with Mr. Bond Hughes, and he hoped that he
had • said nothing -derogatory to that gentleman's
character, ,as it had not been his intention to do
next came to the -" Carlisle patriot."—
(Laughter.) Mr. Charles Ross, it appeared, was em-
ployed by the llforning Chronicle newspaper as a repor-
ter, and in his evidence, when examined by Mr. Ser-
geant Warren; he-said that he arrived in Dublin on tbe
3d of' July. lie said he came to take the notes of Mr.
O'Connell's meeting at Donnybrook. ' He was asked,
" Did, you •come of. your own accord, or was it
suggested to. you ? I do not ask you who it was sup_
gestedit to you." Mr. Ross—"lt was suggested to nie. '
-He was then asked, for whom did you attend?" Mr.
Ross-7" I attended on the part of the Government."
It therefore appeared that he had been sent over by the
Government, they knowing-that he was in the employ of
the Morning. Chronicle, a paper opposed in politics to the
• Government.- Iu the course of cross-examination, this
question was pot to him, " 'believe you said you were sent
. over to Ireland by the Government's" Mr. Ross—" Yes,
I was." "'Now Government is a comprehensive word,
have you any objection to tell what member of the Go-
vernment suggested this to you ?" Immediately. upon
,this question being put, the counsel' for the Crown
jumped up, and, said, " Don't answer that question !"
as--. much as to say, "Don't tell the Irish pe9-
ple—don't tell the English people,. who it was
that employed - you." Mr. Charles Ross had
before stated that he had been sent over and employed
by a person high in office. Now he (Mr. Duncombe)
'wanted to know, and he theught be had a rightto ask,
who that high person was ?—(llear, hear.) Could not
the Government' find other persons but those eni-
plored on newspapers—and employed by newspapers,
too, not in the interest of the Government ? Could they
not have found other persons than those for such
a disreputable purpose as that for which Mr. Ross had
been engaged ? Of course the Government knew per-
fectly well that a person going over under false colours
—going as the reporter to the Morning Chronicle would
thereby be enabled to obtain information with
facility. This they considered was an advantage.
He understood that at one meeting, that which took place
at Mullaglnast, this individual, Mr. Ross, was known
to be, acquainted and connected with the liberal press,
and was treatedon that account with the greatest kind-
- ness by the •traversers_ themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In-
deed, so little did they think that this gentleman was a
spy, that, 111 r. Steele, one of the traversers, took him
in his own carriage,42 miles, to Dublin.—(Hear, hear.)
By this means he got an insight into all their secrets.—
(Hear, hear.). Now he (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to
know who was the honourable and upright individual who
employed that individual. He stated that he had re-
ceived 3501. fbr this and 501. for the Donnybrook meet-
ing. He then came back to England, and his connec-
tion with the'skorning-Chronieb having ceased at the
termination of the session of Parliament, he went again
. to Ireland for the .*cpdard newspaper, and then it was
that he did this dirty work for theLeAippwoitt, i Those

who einployed thiS man to do this dirty work ought to
be known, not only to the Government,g'but to the
people. The people ought •to know who ordered the
spending of their money for such purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
He could not believe that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government would condescend to such
meanness; nor could he think the Right Hon. Baronet,
the Secretary, of State for the Home Department, had
any hand in it-(Hear, hear)—because' on a former. oc-
casion, the Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the
Government had never employed spies among the po-
lice, and that if any of them had been employed in such
a character, it must have been under the countenance of
some local magistrates. Now he (Mr. I).) wanted to know
if it was a Member of the other House of Parliament ;
and this he would say, that, let it be whom it might, they
had inflicted eternal disgrace upon themselves.—(Hear,
hear.) So much for the Carlisle patriot, Mr. Ross.—
(Laughter.) He was now an ornament to the Standard
newspaper. He was now, he (Mr. buncombe) be-
lieved, a reporter on that paper--(Hear, bear)—and as
an agent of the Government, he (Mr. Duncombe) should
like to know what he had received as a remuneration
for the services he had rendered. Before he went to the
case of Mr. Jackson, he would read to the House what
was the opinion of the Irish press upon these transactions.
There was an account of Mr. Charles Ross in the Dub-
lin newspapers which he would read to the House. (The
Hon: Gentleman then read a paragraph describing the
manner in which Mr. C. Ross had acted in Ireland, from
which it appeared that that person had represented him-
self in Dublin as the reporter, first of the Morning Chro-
nicle, and subsequently of the Standard, while in re-
ality, he attended the meetings in Ireland in the
capacity of agent to the Government, for the
purpose of obtaining inforMation to be afterwards
rendered available for prosecuting individuals. The
paragraph also stated that-Ross had 'acted a most trea-:
cherous
.part, and - one unworthy of a man having the
least pretensions to the character of a gentleman—that
he had deceived those with whom his professional duties
brought him in contact, having represented himself as
acting in the honourable capacity of a newspaper reporter,
while he was in reality a reporter for the Government—
that no sophistry could palliate such treacherous conduct,
which was so different from the conduct of those reporters
who, when called as witnesses on a former occasion of a
similar kind, had refused to attend. The paragraph
went on to state what was, in his (Mr. Duncombe's)
opinion, the most correct, that if this principle of turn
ing newspaper reporters into Crown witnesses were ge4.
nerally adopted, the freedom of discussion would be at
an end.)—(Hear, hear.) He came next to Mr. Jacksonir
of' the Morning Herald, who it appeared was not a re-
gular reporter, but a correspondent of the Morning
Herald, and who used to write some very interesting
and entertaining reports for that paper, and which he
used to render, to use his own terms, " rather spicy" for
those readers who indulged in the Morning Herakl.-1-
(Laughter.) At the close of that person's examination
he stated that the Morning Herald had then latel
i
changed hands, and that it was a short time previous t
the change of proprietors that he had been directed to p t
himself in communication with Mr. Kemmis, the Crown
solicitor, and that he had heard Mr. O'Connell fre-
quently repudiate his being made responsible Or
what appeared in the newspapers. The witneSs
then said that he wished to say something, as
comments might be made on his conduct.
The Lord Chief Justice then asked him what he wished
to say. Mr. Jackson then protested solemnly that those
documents were given to the Crown solicitor, INfr.
Kemrnis, by the proprietors of the Morning Herald
without his knowledge—(Hear, hear)—and that he never
knew they were in the hands of the Crown solicitor till
they were handed to him (Mr. Jackson) by that gentle-.
man.—(Heaf.) 'He said he thought it was due to his
charieter to make this plain explanation of the truth.
(Hear, hear.) No person, said the Hon. Member, could
cast the least blame upon Mr. Jackson after this state-
ment.—(Cheers-.) It was evident that Mr. Jacksba
was ashamed of the conduct of the Crown, and
that he was very anxious to cast the odium
[of the transaction from himself. Those doeu-
meats were handed over by the proprietors
for reasons best known to themselves. Be knew it
might be said that this took place before the transfer of
the Morning Herald, which happened on the Ist of
January ; but there were reasons for handing over
these documents before the money was paid, and before
the Gbvernment assisted in advancing the money.—
(Cheers.) The Government, no doubt, had very equit-
able claims to the documents which they hound in the
Morning Herald office before that establishment was
transferred, and before it was incorporated with the
Standard. But it was clear Mr. Jackson was ashamed
of the transaction, though it appeared the Morning Herald
was not ashamed of handing over the documents.—(Hear.)
He said that the Government ought to be ashamed of
their conduct in availing themselves of those documents.
He would read some of the opinions of the press on this
subject. The opinions were strong, but not stronger
than the conduct of the parties would justify. (The
r Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph from one of the
fin eewr
as papers, pi
ne r,
thisw hi
transaction, st a ted that
was t huen
pc oanr
adilu
ec
lteo the
df
in-the
pMorningpublic
press. The charge against it was clear and unmistake-
able. The Herald received communications under the
sealbf confidence, and had bartered them to the Govern-
ment, for the purposes- of carrying on a prosecution.
Such conduct struck at the root of all confidence in the'
public journals. It made those who attended public
meetings for the purpose of reporting, spies and in-
formers. They could but express their abhorrence of
the perfidious conduct pursued in this transaction which
the Herald and Crown might divide between them.)—
(Cheers' and laughter.) He (Mr. buncombe) concurred
in that opinion, and he thought that even if the Herald
was base enough to hand over the documents to the
Crown, 'the Crown ought not to have availed itself of
them in a trial of such importance. The trial became
tainted by such conduct—(Hear, hear)—and they had
better have left the prosecution alone, than have con-
ducted it by such means, which reflected so little credit
on the Government.. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for
the Colonies, informed the House the other night, with
more candour than discretion, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wrote a letter to the Attorney-General for Ire-
land,'Commending him for thejud; e ent, the firmness, and
good temper with which he con. cted the prosecution.
As they had thus passed a vote' of ,thanks to the At-
torney-General for Ireland, he hoped that others con-
nected with the trials would not be excluded. He hoped
the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench would receive a
vote of thanks for the charge he had delivered.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He hoped that Mr. Kemmis, too,
the Crown Solicitor, would li4 ' thanked for his
services in procuring the jury.—(Cheers.) No doubt
the proprietors of the Morning Herald and Standard
-found 'a sufficient recompense in their own consciences,
and were above any idea of remuneration ; but he must
,say they would not do justice to the Chief Justice and to
Mr. Kemmis, if they only thanked the Attorney-General
for the judgment and temper with which he had con-
ducted the prosecution. Now, he wanted to know if a
verdict so obtained would gain any moral in-
fluence whatever—he doubted it very much ;
it certainly had not produced that effect in England.
The impression, from one end of England to the other,
was, that Mr. O'Connell had not had a fair trial. At
the . close of last session, the Right Hon. Secretary
of State for the Home Department told the House that,
if it did not strengthen the hands of the Government,
and maintain its authority in Ireland, England would
present amelancholy spectacle to the eyes of surrounding
nations. If there was then a shadow, of foun-
dation for the Right Honourable Gentleman's
assertion, the Government must now be in
that state of alarm. If they looked at what had
occurred during these debates, and to the general opi-
nion of the conduct of the Government,' he must say he
had never known a debate so damaging to a Government.
—(Laughter, and Oh, oh I from the Ministerial benches.)
They must be on the eve of the fulfilment of the predic-
tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, if there was the
slightest - foundation for his assertion of last session.
He (Mr. buncombe) had-no Apprehension of that
prediction being fulfilled. The only apprehension
he had of their becoming a melancholy spectacle
in the eyes of other nations was a fear that
Members of Parliament 'would not speak out on this
.question, and would not do their duty ; but if Hon.
Members on both sides of -the House would do
their duty in this matter, there need be no alarm.
He knew it was perfectly competent to her Majesty's.
Ministers to refuse the returns he moved for, and that
without adducing one Single argument in support of
their conduct, just as they had refused•the other night
the motion of his Honourable and Gallant Friend
near him (Capt. Layard, we 'believe). On that occasion
they relied not on argument, but on their numerical ma-
jority.—(Hear, hear.) They might do so on that occa-
sion, they might refuse the information he sought for,
and which Ireland had a right to have; but if they did
so, the country would not be satisfied, and every,
impartial man would come to the conclusion, that these
proceedings had been conducted, from first to last, in a
way which reflected no honour on them, either as men,
or as Ministers of the Crown.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WALLACE was understood to second the motion.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, he should, indeed, en;
tertain a melancholy opinion of the future prospects, not
only of Ireland, but of the whole country, if the 'ma-
jority in that House sympathised with the sentiments of
the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward
this motion.----(Loud cheers. 'from the Ministerial
benches.) And he must add, that under ordinary circum-
stances, after the speech which had just been delivered,
and especially after the invectives and accusations in
which the Hon. Gentleman had indulged when speaking
of the Government, he should have considered it his
duty to oppose entirely. the returns asked for ; but,
considering the whole . circumstances of the case—the
particular time at which the motion was made, and that
there must be a vote of public money during the present
session, in connection with these prosecutions—he could
not bring himself to give to the motion a positive and'
absolute opposition. He would beg the House to re:
member in what light the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. bun-
combe) presented himself to them that eyening. If he
(Sir J. Graham) mistook not, the Hon. Gentleman
was last night attending a meeting of his constituents in
Finsbury, where, after a strong and a warm discussion, a
motion was carried instructing him to obstruct the
progress of the supplies in that House.
Mr. DUNCOMBEThere was no such motion made.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM confessed he might be wrong„
for after the great variety of subjects there introduced,
and the great variety of opinions expressed upon them,
it was somewhat difficult to say with certainty what had
really passed.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman a arned
the Government that they were damaged by the late
debate, that they were not so strong as they thought
themselves to be, and that a change had recently taken*
place on his ownside of the House. He wished him joy of
it, and of the news compact alliance which they had formed
But he would now proceed to touch upon some of thOse
topics to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted in
his speech. ' He would riot then go into the discussion
of the conduct of the trial in Ireland ; he would not then
re-open all those questions which for nine nights' hiidi
occupied the attention of thit Houses—Wear, lieaq