The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-26 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the order of the day was read for the House's re-
solving itself into a Committee of Supply.
The SPEAKFR then left the Chair, and the House re-
solved itself into the said Committee.
Sir G. CLERK could not conceive that there could
be any objection in any quarter to allow him to take
„ account half the sum proposed for defraying the
naval expenditure of the year. He should therefore
move, that a sum of 2,208,281/. 18s. Id. should be
granted on account to his Majesty to defray the naval ser-
vices of the Fear.
Sir .1. YORIU conceived that there were items in the
present estimates strhich the Committee of Finance ought
to treat in a very inquisitorial manner. It was stated the
other night by the Secretary to the Ordnance, that
his Grace the Duke of Wellington had made con.
siderable reductions in that department of the public ser-
vice, and that by those reductions he had not only in.
.:Teased its utility, but had also stimulated the zeal of those
who were employed in it. He trusted that similar redac-
tions would be speedily made in the naval department,
with similar benefit to the public service. He should like
to know why his Hon. Friend below' biro, who had so
often played first fiddle on occasions like the preeent, and
the music of whose voice he was happy to bear again from
his former Aitnation, had again come forward to propose
thee votes instead of his Hen. and Gallant Friend (Sir
G. Cockburn), svho Lad been first appointed to propose
them. He wanted to hear from his Hon. and Gallant
Friend what reductions were meditated at the Admiralty.
He wished to ask his Hon. and Gallant Friend what qtian-
it was determinad to keep in actual force.
tity of shipping
He saw that there was 800,0001. to lie voted this year for
rimber alone. He W 34 sure that that grant might. and
ought to be very considerably reduced. w h
- had, at present,
110 sail of the line building and in ordinary. Did ( lovetn_
anent intend to keep itp the whole of that force? The Hon.
Member for Aberdeen had got the navy estimates for 1792
reprinted. Now, when he looked at the estimates LA. 1792,
and then again at the estimates, for 1828, there ap-
pear to him a mystery which it would be painful to "travel.
He did not intend to enter into the difference bets -ett the
two estimates, further than related to the ships in-ei.linary.
Iu 1792 we had 414 ships of all classes, and in I: •?.8
bad 504. In 1792 the number of officers and '.t'ePers
were 4,224, and in 1828, 2,780. Indeed it wly irrpos-
sible to look at these estimates, as compared with .:.ose of
1792, without seeing the wide difference in the ea ;,-t,e of
the men ; 2,780 men cost at one time 105,815/., . lids at
another 4,224 cost only 93,0001. He earnestly 4.. treated
the Committee of Finance to look close at these i I,ings
t 4 IQ lock most particularly at the cost of the man..r:(.,ture

of shipping. He was not a man to war against authority,
and he therefore looked, not to the- LOrd High Admiral,
but the council who advisedbitd-; and if they gave his
Royal Highness evil advice in any hour, woe betide the
Executive.—(A laugh.)—He was not in the House the
other evening wen his Hon. and Gallant Friend, .:than'
*horn there never had been a better captain.of a man of
.war, had alluded,to the 50,00 Q seamen's jackets which-had
been turned up.• These were charged 12s. 6d. to the sea-
-1 Men, and this lakhig them back left the country minus
Lord knows what. In this matter the council had advised his
Royal Highness to get rid pf these jackets, and the Navy-
office had flung the business from their Atlean shoulders
Upon the feebler back of the Victualling-board. On these
'504000 jaekets, there was, perhaps, 11; -loss of 19s. upon
each, which by comparing two and WO i'n the Ordinary
ihrtn of arithmetic, not perhaps as cleverly-is the•Chan-
iellor of the Exchequer- could cast it up, made a rood
round sum. But,:," Oh," said his Hon. and Gallant
Frithd, " we hate taken the seamen out of the hand of
theJetm—the,.poor tars were previously in the habit of
going to these infernal fellows, the Hebrew Jews." Into
*hose hands, then,-had he put them ? Why, he had taken
them from the Jews to deliver them over to the Gentiles—.
(a laugh)L—for the Victualling-office was to charge them
245. as well as 129. for these jackets. There was nothing
so capricious as this system of clothing. Officers knew not
from day to day how far they were safe in the official
Pattern of their uniforms. By arithmetic a man might
cast up his accounts, and know how he stood, but there
was no arithmetic to page the clothing for the circle of a
man's person, to regulate the rotundity of an admiral's
belly—(a laugh)—as compared with the sparer shape
of a inidshipman's. Lately they did away with the whole
cut of the naval uniform, and for no purpose upon earth
that he could understand. Why, it was only last summer,
that at the Very best dinner be had ever sat at, at Mr.
Speaker's, he (Sir Joseph) was complimented as the best
dressed 'malt in: the room_ in his foil uniform.--(A
laugh.) Indeed-he was; and the compliment, if he remem-
bered right, came from his Rev. Friend the Speaker's
chaplain. For 40 years had he been in his Majesty's naval
service, and improvement after improvement, as it had
been called, had been made in the pattern tif his coat, till it
had been reduced to what they now saw, with hardly a skirt
upon it —(Renewed laughter.)—Their coats were now
reduced to trumpery jackets of the most extraordinary ap-
pearance ever manufactured. It might be very convenient
for the service to shorten the jackets, because it was not
always fine weather; but was it equally convenient for the
pocket ?—there was the rub. Well, then, how long was
this little jacket to last ? Would his Hon. and Gallant
Friend, in the language of the famous Liverpool speech, the
most celebrated one that had ever been made at any elec-
tion for that great commercial town, give him any " gua-
rantee"--(a laugh)—that this uniform would last a twelve-
month? Would he say it would not be penal to wear it at
the end of the year ? What guarantee, or what pledge,
would the Council give to that effect ? Supposing he went
to his tailor to have a new uniform made on these principles
now, he should like to know how long it was likely they
were to- have influence? He had .said enough of the
Finance Committee, and he hoped they would look to this
his particular grievance, among others, in the Finance
Committee. He should regret indeed that it was overlooked
by the worthy chairman of• the Finance Committee, who
was no longer Lord A., but Sir H. P.—(A laugh.)—Let
them watch over these things, for it was a great fault in the
formation of that Committee, that no professional man who
knew the technical details of the service was a member of it.

Sir GEORGE COCKBURN did not mean to follow
his. Hon. and Gallant .Friend through all the extraneous
topics of his speech, hut he must refuse his right of putting
words into his (Sir George's) mouth which lie had never
tittered. What he had stated respecting the seamen's
jackets was this—that a stock of imperfect clothes was
found on hand, which had been sold at l Is. or 12s. 6d.,
and contracted for at 9s. 6d. ; that these had been re-
placed by the introduction of a much better article for the
seamen at the same price, and that a still better (indeed• the
best) kind had been provided at 245. for such men as had
pay to spare for their purchase—a jacket, indeed, for which
from 40s. to 505. were usually paid at the seaport towns.
As to the Finance Committee, he could assure the House
that every information which the Admiralty could afford
was at their service ; he had himself been twice examined
before them, and he was ready to go again as often as he
was called -upon, and so was every other officer in the
public departments.—(Hear, hear.)—As to the present
vote, all that was wanted was a grant upon credit, the
same as had been given in the navy and the ordinance.—
With respect to the pattern of the naval uniform, he could
not give any guarantee to his Hon. and Gallant Friend how
long it would last.
Sir JOSEPH YORKE must always expect official gentle-
men to mystify.a.plain subject—but,he must again say, he
was quite surprised that the Government, in the manufac-
ture of the Finance Committee, about which two of the
Ministers of the King in the late administration quarrelled,
and did such divers acts as would have disgraced any Go-
vernment, had not put upon it one, or two, or three pro-
fessional men, connected with the navy, army, and ord-
nance, who could. unravel the matters connected with their
departments with technical dexterity. Upon it there was
not a single great gun ; no, not even a pistol, or a patterera
exhibited.—(A laugh.)—So that the abstruse details of
. the three great services must be blinked, and no adequate
and ready opportunity afforded of reducing their very great
expenditure.
Mr. Alderman 'WAITHMAN protested in the strongest
terms against this manner of voting away the public mo-
ney without proper previous inquiry ; and this, too, at a
time when, by the admission of the Government itself, the
most profligate and unnecessary expense had for years per-
vaded their principal departments. It was a matter of sur-
prise to him, that Hon. Gentlemen should have boasted of
the great saving made by the Duke of Wellington in the
Ordnance, who had struck off 300,000/. a year, and 240
unnecessary clerks, when it implied so gross a reflection
upon themselves for having so long refused to reduce this
very branch of the public expenditure. This was a serious
and grave charge against them. The Hon. Alderman re-
ferred to the last 14 years to show how recklessly the pub-
lic expenditure had been managed, although every speech
from the Throne had expressly promised economy and re-
trenchment. The Finance Committee would, be hoped,
do their duty ; but the House ought not to delegate its pri-
vileges and trust to any committee ; and the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), when he had Censured
him the other night for introducing the general state of
affairs before a Committee of Supply, ought to have known
better; for, as a disciple of Mr. Pitt, he must have known
that that and all the\ other great men of his time were
in the habit of exactly taking the supply as the properest
time to discuss and revert to general grievances. The Hon.
Alderman then referred to the financial state of the coun-
try, and contrasted the reductions made by Lord Castle-
reagh in 1817, when an alarm of popular insurrection
prevailed so widely, with the present lavish items. There
was a deficit of ti,000,0001. ; or 13,000,0001., if he cal-
culated the dead weight. How was that to be made up?
Either by a loan, new taxes, or giving up the sinking
fund. They must raise money in this manner, or
reduce their expenditure; how else could the dividends
he paid, or public credit he maintained? If Lord Cas-
tlereagh's principle of reduction had been carried
on up to this time, 65,000,0001. would have been now
saved to the cOuntry, besides the compound interest upon
it. It was in vain for the public to expect that the Go-
vernment would cut down the estimates, as long as the
House of Commons gave the money as it was called for.
He remembered no instance besides that of the property-
tax, in which they had effectively refused the aid required
by Ministers, and then soon the claim was relinquished.
As. to the Sinking Fund, it was a great delusion—to bor-
row at 60' or 70 per cent., and to pay at 80 or 90, was
the greatest delusion that had ever been practised upon a
community. He strongly and earnestly deprecated these
extravagant grants, and implored the House to do its
duty towards the country, in resisting their continuance.
Sir CHRISTOPHER COLE concurred in the regret
that no persons of his profession were members of the Fi-
nance Committee. But having seen so much stress laid
upon the comparison between the estimates of 1792 and
later years, he begged to say, that such a reference was evi-
dently unjust. In 1792 he was himself serving in his
Majesty's navy in the East. Indies. The squadron then
was of nearly equal force to that at present on the same
station, but how different were their services. In 1792
they had only to watch not quite two sides of the penin-
sida—but see the immense territory which had since been
added to the British Indian Empire, or required the at-
tendance of the British Navy. There were the Straits of
Malacca, the Mauritius, the Cape of Good Hope—in fact,
the service was five if not tenfold as heavy as in 1792, if
they considered the new stations in South America and.
the increased force in North America to keep pace with
the growth of the marine of the United States. It was
evident, then, that what answered in 1792 would not do
in this new .state of things. . Ile considered it a great loss
that the names of no members in the army or navy were
to be found on the list of the Finance Committee.
Mr. PEEL could assure his Hon. Friend that,. in the
fiirmation of the Finance Committee, nothing was further
from his intention than to express or imply the slightest dis-
respect to the services of the army or navy by omitting the
names of Members of either service in the list of that Com-
mittee. He could likewise assure him, that so f-tr from
such a circumstance contributing to prevent the Corurnit-
tee from turning it, attention to the details of both ..et

the fact was, that since its appointment two diiitinguished
military officers, and two Members of this House, his Hon.
Friend behind him, and his Friend upon die third bench,
had been examined before the Committee at great length,
and respecting all the points to which reference had just
been made. In forming the Committee, it was necessary
to select its members from persons connected with England,
Scotland, and Ireland, and when the smallness of its num-
ber was considered, it would be perceived that it was by
no means easy to PlLce-upon it all those members who had
particularly turned their attention to finance, and whose
assistance could scarcely be dispensed with. It was
the limitatjon as.;tp numbers Which prevented !he in-
troduction of any 'members of . the army or navy on
the Committee. tilt every military and naval man
could atiend there; and lay before 'them 'whatever
useful or practiCal information it was in their power to
communicate. I-le,(Mr. Peel); before he sat down, begged
to assure the worthy Alderman opposite (Waithman), that
he was mistaken in susposing that he (Mr. Peel) on the
other night had contested his (Alderman ,Peel)
right to enter at large upon the subject of reduction, because
a `finance committee had been appointed. What he (Mr.
Peel) said of the worthy Alderman's speech then, and which
was equally applicable to his speech this night, was, that be
could not found upon it any proposition for a reduction of
the expenditure of the country.
Alderman WAITHMAN explafned.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said the vote on the pre-
sent occasion was only asked on account. All the details
of the expenditure would be examined by the finance com-
mittee. As the matter had gone before them, he was sure
the HouacYwonld not object on the passing of the present
vote upon account.
Mr. WARBURTON said the formation of the finance
committee had given general satisfaction ; but if it should
happen, as it had happened in the Government, that the
committee should turn out to be a committee not of this
House, not of the country, but a committee of parties, then
he (Mr, W.)'Wes free to confess that he would expect but
little.good as the result from its labours.
The resolution was then put and carried.
The House having resumed, the resolutions were report-
ed, and-the report was ordered to be received on Wed-
neiday.
THE YEOMANRY CORPS.

On the. :bringing up of the Report- nn the Army E.
timateg, - ' •

Sir JOHN BRYDGES rose, and in a speech which
was throughout almost totally inaudible in the gallery, con-
demned the late Administration for reducing the yeomanry
forces of the country. He did not much envy, he said,
the condition of the late Ministry. • It was defunct, how-
ever, and peace to its manes. He would content himself
at present with applying to it the epitaph upon Sir John
Vanbrugh—

" Lk heavy on him Earth, for he
" Laid many a heavy load on thee."
_ _

The Hon. Baronet concluded by repeating his disapproba-
tion of the conduct of the late Administration, for not
having made any acknowledgement of its services to a
body of men who had been the patriotic protectors of their
altars and their homes.

Air. S. RICE could answer for the Noble Lord lately at
the head of the Home Department, that in reducing the
yeomanry corps nothing was further from his intention than
to cast the slightest reflection upon any one individual in the
land connected with them, or to manifest an indifference
to the services which those corps had rendered to the pub-
lic.—(Hear; hear. )—The Governmtnt felt grateful to the
yeomanry forces for its past services, but there was an ex-
tent beyond which that feeling should net be carried.
Would it be said, that because a particular portion of the
yeomanry, on a particular occasion, had discharged their
duty, therefore the public should be. burdened with the ex-
pence of the entire body? It was a principle of economy
which animated the late Administration in carrying this '
reduction into effect,—a principal to which, judging from
his votes, the Hon. Member opposite had seldom given his
support. But before the Hon. Member casts his censure
so unsparingly upon the late Government on account of
this measure, he (Mr. S. Rice) would entreat of him to in-.
quire how many members of the present Government, new
before him, would be included in that censure.—(Hear,
hear. )—Because certain corps had been efficient in certain
districts, was that a reason that these corps which were
perfectly useless should be maintained at the • public ex-
pence? For several years the yeomanry corps in the county
of Devon had cost annually 14,0004, and during the last
ten years thsy were never upon any one occasion required
to afford their aid to the civil power. This was a
sample of the system which the Honourable Gentleman
would support, and these were the forces for. the reduc-
tion of which lie so freely lavished his censure upon the
late,Administration.—(Hear, hear.)—The reduction of
.the yeomanry corps was effected by the late Administra-
tion, because it did not look forward to exist as a govern-
ment of force—(loud cries of " hear, hear")—because it
did not desire to be a government of military strength
(hear), but because it depended upan its measures and its
regard to the principles of economy, as its claim to the
public support. (Cheers.) By the late reduction a saving
of two-thirds of the charges for the Yeomanry corps has
been made. Those corps which had proved themselves a
really efficient and useful force, have not been reduced. He
(Mr. Spring Rice) was confident that this reduction would
meet with the approbation of the House; and the opinion
of the country, with the exception of a few persons who
were pleased with the amusements of soldiery, and whose
personal vanity was mixed up with the establishment of
yeomanry corps, had been already pronounced in favour of
the measure, as one of great utility, and from which no de-
triment could arise to the public service.
Sir. J. BRYDGES explained.
Mr. LITTLETON expressed his entire approbation of
the measure, and he was only astonished that the Govern-
ment had kept up this useless force so long. In the Com-
mittee of Finance in 1817, he (Mr. Littleton) proposed
the reduction of the Yeomanry corps. He was convinced
that the public good was the great leading principle which
animated the conduct of the late Secretary for the Home
Department.
Sir R. HERON was only sorry that the whole of the
yeomanry forces had not been abolished.
Lord PALMERSTON reminded the House that this
subject formed no part of the estimates.—(Hear,) As it had
been introduced, he was ready to take his full share of the
responsibility of the measure adopted by the late Govern-
ment. By that measure a swing of 86,000/. a-year had
been effected, without the sacrifice of any really useful and
efficient force.

Lord MORPETH said the Hon Baronet opposite had
applied to the late Government the epitaph of Sir John
Vanbrugh. Of the late Government it might be said, ai
it had been said of Sir John Vanbrugh, that it had " earned
the envy of the superficial, the abuse of the ignorant, and
had inherited the well-founded admiration of posterity."
—(Cheers.)
Mr. PEEL said, upon every occasion the yeomanry had
distinguished itself for the public good ; it had always me-
rited and received the approbation of the country ; and
the same disposition still pervaded the body at large to con-
tribute its exertions whenever necessary in future.—
One expression which had fallen from the Hon. Member op..
posite (Mr. S. Rice) deserved notice. He said, that the
late Government did not wish to be considered a Govern-
ment of force. The only yeomanry corps which have not
been reduced, are those in the manufacturing districts.
They were retained there by the late Government under
the impression that their services might hereafter be re-
quired to repress some sudden emotions ; and surely the
Hon. Member would not mean to say that in these coun-
ties the Government should be considered one of foree, or
one that manifested a disposition to act against its fellow-
citizens? The expression no doubt had fallen hastily from
the Hon. Member, and was one to which upon mature re-
flection he would not have given utterance.
The Report on the Army Estimates was then brought
up, and read.
Qn the Resolution, that 91,000 men be kept up as the
land-forces for the year, being put,
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose, and moved as an
amendment that only 80,000 he voted.
Mr. N. CALVERT said, as long as Ireland was kept in
its present state, he did not see how they could effect a
further reduction in the military force. Let them first
pass laws to tranquillize Ireland, and then talk of reducing
the army. They were beginning at the wrong end.
Lord ALTHORP rose to explain why, upon this occa-
sion, for the first time he believed, he should vote against
the worthy Alderman. They were at present called upon
only to vote the estimates for six months, which were abso-
lutely necessary, and nothing which passed now pledged
any man to a particular line of conduct hereafter.—
(Hear.)—He trusted that in the Finance Committee they
should be able to reduce the military establishment of the
country. In the existing state of their foreign relations, he
did not think that the force specified in these estimates was
too much to be granted to Ministers for a period of six
months.—(Hear.) - •
Mr. Alderman WAITHAIAN said, the existence of the
Finance Committee had been opposed as an objection to his
amendment. In 1817, a reduction of 10,000 men was ef-
fected, and it was not objected to by Lord Castlereagh,
because a Finance Committee had been appointed at the
same time. The House was called upon to make every
effort to reduce the expenditure of the country. He should
not press his amendment to a division.
Mr. SYKES' wished to explain his motives for voting
for this amendment on a former' night, He did not see any

reason why the reduction should be postponed on 'account
of the appointment of the Finance Committee. When
that Committee should make its report, the Session would
probably be near' its close, the Members would be out of
town, and under such circumstances, Parliament would be
called on to discuss this most important question. ble
was unwilling to vote enlarge a number of men as 91,000.
Such a force was not required by the country in time of
peace. They had not such a force in 1792, nor in 1817,
nor;even in 1793. He could not, for the life of him, see
what were the peculiar circumstances of this country which
rendered such an enormous force at present necessary.
This country was not, he contended, in a situation to bear
more burdens than pressed on it at present; and yet fresh
taxation was talked of. Looking at the difference between
the expenditure of the country and its resources, he felt,
himself imperatively called on to vote for the reduction of
the army ; and for that reduction he certainly should vote
again and again, whenever it was proposed.
Lord P ALMERSTON had, on a former occasion, stated,
that he was ready then, or at any other time, to explain his
reasons for the course he had pursued. He bad not at-
tempted to pledge the House for the whole establishment
for the year. His object only was to introduce such a
vote as would form the foundation of the Mutiny Bill;
and therefore be wished the general vote to be postponed
till the whole of the Army Estimates were before the
House. It was said that he had given no time for discus-
sion ; but he would ask, bow could he bring on
a general discussion until the Finance Committee had ex-
amined into the subject, and reported on it in detail ?
Sir J. YORKE thought that the discussion of the finan-
cial state of the country was at this moment extremely im-
portant ; and he conceived that the present was as fit a
time as any other for entering on it.—(Hear.) He doubt-
ed very much whether the Finance Committee would bring
their labours to a conclusion very speedily. He was a
friend to economy, but when the Hon. Alderman suggested
that ono-ninth of the military force should be lopped off, he
could not view it as a statesmanlike suggestion. If the
state-paper which had appeared this day were true, and not a
stock-jobbing document,—if the Porte were indeed determin-
ed to go to work, and to do justice to that which he conceived
to be an aggrieved nation, then he could not perceive how
the military force of this country could be reduced. The
Turks said, "It is no longer a question; whether a parti-
cular piece of territory shall be retained by us." No:
they seemed. to think the point in dispute to be, whether
they were, as a nation in Europe, to be sacrificed—whe-
ther they were to be doomed, with their families, to pass to
another country ? In such a case be, as a Member of Par-
liament, would not support any proposition which, like
the present, was calculated to embarrass the Government of
a great nation.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY observed, that the largest part of
their expenditure was that connected with the interest of
the national debt; and until they could reduce that, with
perfect justice to the public creditor, it was clear that they
could not make such a reduction as would satisfy the na-
tion. Taking this point into consideration, it was, he
conceived, very hard to expect from the labours of the
Finance Committee that which they could not do.
Mr. WARD and Sir J. YORKE said each a few
words in explanation.
Mr. HUME expressed his regret that some members of
that House should entertain any fears with respect to the
conduct of the people.
After a few words from Mr. N. CALVERT, the amend-
ment was negatived, and the original resolution was carried.
Resolutions for granting 2,000,000/. for defraying the
charges of the land forces of Great Britain ; 1,000,0001.
for defraying the charges of the out-pensioners of Chelsea
Hospital ; and 753,5191. on account of the. expenditure in
the ordnance department,were agreedto, without observation.
Lord PALMERSTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill in
conformity with the said resOlutions:_