The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-07 00:00:00

this he wcatld show was not a just remark. He would next call
the tutention of the Committee to the projected improvements at
Too!. There were at present four stations there, viz.; Edge.
hill, Crown-street, Lime-street, and Wapping. The first was tor
coal, the second for live stock, the third for passengers, the fourth
for goods. The extent of the present Lime-street station was one
acre and three quarters. They proposed to add half as much more.
The whole area would be then 12,000 yards, the cost 30,0001.
To this plan he Has not aware of any opposition To the
station at Wapping, which was at present four acres
In extent, they proposed to add twenty thousand yards
and there would be a communication with it to the Queen's and
King's Docks. The cost would be 30,000/. There was no oppo..
sition but that of a private individual, a Mr. Lloyd. He now came
to the North or Victoria, which began at Edge-hill, and came down
close to the North Docks. The tunnel would proceed until it
reached the Leeds and Liverpool canal, and from thence to the
station would be open ground. There would be a communication
between the Victoria tunnel and the Wapping station, and the
communication would embrace the whole line of quays, and run for
a length of two miles and a half, forming one of the most important
and largest schemes which the mind of man could suggest. The
cost of this tunnel and the station would be 286,0001., a large sum :
but it should be recollected that the capital of the Company which
proposed it was s": 50,0001., and that it had never yet failed
in any plan it had undertaken A station would be
made at the end of the tunnel which would be on a corn-
rnensuratescale ; thence they proposed to take five acres of land
and to this there would be no opposition. The improvements at
Liverpool had received the sanction of the Board of Trade, and
every other plan he advocated had received the sanction of that
Board, with the exception of the St. Helen's and Rufford line.
The Liverpoolland Ransforth, with the other improvements at
Liverpool would cost 10,000/., chiefly at the Edgehill station. The
Learned Counsel then went on to disprove that statement in the
report of the Board of Trade, which set forth that the St. Helen's
and Rufford line only skirted a coal-field and that the branch was
not necessary, and concluded by saying that he would not doubt
but the Committee having heard the evidence he would tender and
decide upon adopting the lines communication he proposed between
those great northern districts and Liverpool, which had now be-
come the emporium of the trading world.
Mr. Hatherton appeared as counsel on behalf of Sir G. Hesketh
and other larded proprietors.
Mr. E. LIDDELL, engineer and surveyor, confirmed in every
respect the statement made by Mr. Lowndes, as to the expense of
forming the different branches, and added that the steepest gra-
dient on the .St. Helen's and Rufford Railway was 1 In 114, and
the least radius of a curve 25 chains, and these only for
short distances. The steepest gradient on the Rainsforth and
Liverpool line was 1 in J 65, and the smallest radius of a curve
194 chains. The total cost of constructing both lines would be
350,0001. or thereabouts.
This witness was cross-examined at considerable length by Mr.
WILKINS and by Mr. CALLER; as to the expenses of constructing
the various branches and the works in Liverpool. There was no
coach on the line between Liverpool and Rainsford.
In his cross-examination by Mr. HLTRERTON, the witness ad-
mitted that the line would pass within a short distance of the man-
sion of Mr. Leland, three furlongs.
Mr. Thomas Lee examined the iand along the St. Helen's and
Rufford line. Calculated the value of the land, buildings, and
severance at about 22,000/. The land, buildings, and severance
between Liverpool and Rainsford was 57,2241.
Mr. linelair, treasurer to the St. Helen's and Rufford Railway,
thought the formation of that railway would be a great accommo-
dation.

Mr. Edward Woods, resident engineer of the Liverpool and
Manchester Railway, gave evidence as to the traffic, &c.
Some formal evidence was then put in, and the Committee ad.
iourned at four o'clock to Monday next.

GROUP L.
HORSHAM BRANCH RAILWAY.

The Committee met this morning at half-past twelve o'clock,
Mr. E. B. Denison in the chair, and went through the remaining
clauses of this Bill, and it was ordered to be reported to the House.
PORTSMOUTH ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAY.
After disposing of the Horsham Railway Bill, the Committee on
Group L resumed their inquiry on the direct railway to Ports-
mouth, when

Mr. AUSTIN called Mr. Simmons, who had been extensively
engaged in getting Information for railway traffic tables, and stated
that he had made the traffic table for the South-Eastern Company.
He had been engaged 14 days last autumn, with 30 persons under
him. The time was a most unfavourable one, the weather
being bad, and the season the worst in the year for traffic. By
observation he had found that there was a revenue of 179,3841.
from passengers and parcels on the line-110,0001. for passengers,
slid about 70,0001. for parcels, allowing lid. a mile for the fare of
each passenger, and Is. for each long parcel, and 3d. and 6d. for
the short ones. This calculation was, he conceived, a very mode.
rate one. By the London and Gosport line there were 60,000 pas..
sengers annually. On the South. Western line, they were carried at
the rate of 2d per mile each; but by the atmospheric line the charge
would be only lid. per mile. In consequence of this reduction he
expected an increase of 50 per cent., amounting to about 28,0001.
a year. He expected also an increase of 10,000/. a year from
additional passengers to the Isle of Wight. The tannage of
goods now on the railway was about 6,500 annually, while he as.
Burned only 2,800. For small parcels by the South-Western
Railway he put down 3,0001. a year. Ofgoods 'taken by water
conveyance between London and Portsmouth, Newport,
Chichester, and Hemsworth he had taken at only
one-third, which would yield a revenue of 12,7891. Bs. 10d.
He had assumed 1 lid. for cattle, and id. for sheep and lambs,
which would give upwards of 8,000/. On inquiry for the vessels
which went from Portsmouth direct, he had allowed I%d. for in-
dividuals, and Id. only for troops, and this gave him 7,5901. 16s.
Bd. The general result of the pleasure traffic to Epsom and Good-
wood races, and on other occasions, gave about 8,290/. The fish
for the whole year gave 14,000/., of which he took only 10.0001.,
making altogether the total given above. This, deducting 35
per cent. for working and expenses, would give a return of 8 1, r
cent. on the capital of 450,000/. The gross amount of traffic to
Southampton was 337,0001.—deducting from this 44,700/. for pas-
senger traffic to Gosport, 2,3001. for goods, there remained a net
amount of 290,000/. proved traffic on the Southampton line, being

110,000/. more than was assumed for the whole of the tragic to
Portsmouth.

To the cross-examination of Mr. Cociunialv, the witness stated
that these tables bad only lately been made, but in the tables sent
into the Board of Trade, he had made the estimate for the whole
returns, 388,000/. 10s. I Id., and, deducting from this
155,2121. 4s. 4d., being 40 per cent. for working ex-
penses, there was a balance of 232,8181. for net revenue.
He then had calculated the passengers at 10. and lid. per
head per mile, and he had taken a greater number of miles and
MOT e coaches. Among the latter was the Brighton, the Worthing,
and the Horsham coaches. In addition to this they had taken all
the Guilford trade which was considerable. His charge also now
was only Id per mile for the passengers. Another reduction had
been made on the parcels, from 2s. to Is. each. He had made this
reduction because he believed that the South-Western Company
had reduced their charge, but he had not made any detailed in.
quiry, or gone to the offices of the Company to ask for a table of
charges.

To the cross-examination of: Mr. GURNEY—In his present
tables he estimated the whole of the tonnage at 257,621 tons
in the year, but in the tables sent into the Board of Trade
he had estimated the weight at 521,476 tons. The
traffic between Godalmin and London was stated at 96,460
tone, but of this he took only one.third carried at 2d. per
ton per mile. He had estimated that there were It passengers per
coach per journey, though he believed that 9 was the usual esti-
mate. But at Cosham the average which had been taken was 9 ;
at Sheetgate, near Peterafield, it was 61 ; at Haslemere it was
not quite 11 ; at Godalming it was about 5 ; at Dorking it was a
little more than 6 ; at Guilford it was about 5 ; and at Leather_
head the average was about 6 passengers per journey. The total
of these results then give an average of 6, though he had stated
them at 11. His inquiries had been made of the coachmen
and coach proprietors on the road, who had given him
the number of London passengers by Portsmouth and
Chichester coaches. The coach from Winchester and
retersfield would cross the line of railway at right angles,
and he had taken his traffic at the Sheetbridge.gate to as.
certain what passengers he would get for the railway. With re-
spect to the goods traffic, he had based his assumptions on the sup-
position that the mills and factories on the line would burn coal
instead of wood and turf, as they would then get coals much more
cheaply. The same otservation aalied to lime, fish, and French
eggs, and he had not included in his present estimate the traffic
which he expected to draw from the South Western line. He had
got his data of the water conveyance from Nell Quay, at Chiches
ter, and at the quay for the Portsmouth traffic.
On the re-examination of Mr. Aus-rtze, Mr. Simmons stated that
the whole of the goods traffic on the South-Westeen line was

11,1731, and of this he took 3,0001. for the proper Portsmouth
traffic, leaving 8,1731. for the proper Southampton traffic, which
he considered sufficiently fair. In the returns sent in to the
Board of Trade, he had ineluded a branch to Ryegate, and another
to Guilford, which had been originally contemplated, but were now
abandoned, and the traffic of which was not included in the sub.
sequent tables now presented to the Committee. The Guilford
passengers, he calculated, would return 52,7311., and 43,2381.
for goods, the whole amount of the goods traffic being
calculated at something over 124,0001. He had been
led to suppose that the whole of the Guildford traffic would be
drawn to the atmospheric line in consequence of the feeling ex-
pressed by the principal of the Guildford traders in fa-
vour of the London Bridge terminus, and their indisposition to
use the south.western line. The loss of the Ryegate branch also
had abstracted upwards of 11,0001. from his estimate. His
original estimate of the South-Vs estern traffic was above 84,0001.,
which had been reduced to 32,0001., making a reduction of
52,0001. The whole of the reductions would therefore amount
to about 130,0001. When there was an apparent reduction on
the passengers to 50.0004, it arose from the reduced mileage, and
passengers from their several stations, the difference being between
4,247,280 miles, and upwards of 9,000,000. This accounted for
upwards of 39,0001., and a mistake had been made in the
number of miles which they would have to travel. His reduced
estimates had been made from the evidence given
by the witnesses for the Guildford and Portsmouth Railway. He
had also deducted the Worthing coach and all the coaches to
Horsham. All these reductions would account for the
discrepancy between the two tables. He attempted to
get his tables back from the Board of Trade, but
hed been unsuccessful, and was obliged to suffer them
to remain. He had, therefore, communicated the facts to his em-
ployers, and stated that the reduction of the two branches would
reduce the traffic nearly one.half. He had made no other altera-
tions but those which were suggested by the evidence of the South
Western Csmpany.
To the inquiry of the CHAIRMSN, the witness stated that both
his sets of tables were formed on precisely the same principle.
To Mr. AUSTIN, the witness replied that he had got his average
of eleven passengers from Mr. Crafts, and from sonic persons at
Portsmouth.

To the inquiry of Lord CLIVE, Mr. Simmons replied that when
he had given his estimate of the passengers from Horsham, he was
not aware that the Brighton Company had projected a branch to
that place. He discovered the discrepancies in February, after he
had learned that the Guilford branch had been abandoned.

Mr. Waghorn, ornamental tile and vase "taker at Ewell, stated
that he possessed a very tine vein of fire clay at Nonsuch Park.
He consumed about 3,000 tons of coals, and disposed of from 500
to 1,000 tons of clay to all parts of the world. He supplied Ports-
mouth Dockyard with fire bricks, and sent a great quantity to Hol-
land, France, Germany, and even to Constantinople, and if this
railway were opened he would save a great deal by avoiding the
circuitous route of the Thames. He had also a trade towards
Dorking and Leatherhead, which very much desired to extend,
and for this the railway gave him an opportunity.
Mr. Simmon, an owner of real property at Leatherhead, stated,
that the value and rents of property had been of late much reduced.
They had no water conveyance, were badly off for land carriage,
the nearest station being that at Kingston. He has a lorge corn
mill on his hands, and he did not see that any mecns of conveyance
would be obtained unless this railway was obtained.
Mr. Moor, a woolstapler at Epsom—Stated the principal part
of his business lay down the left of the proposed line as
far as Chichester, and the south western line was perfectly useless
and the dealers in his neighbourhood would be ruined unless they
had the means of conveyance which would enable them to com-
pete with the dealers in the west. He sent from 1,200 to 1,500
pecks of wool to London, most of which he got from
the south. From Chichester he paid Is. 6d. a cwt.,
from Petworth Is. 3d. On an average the latter was
the usual price, and he would save more than half by
the use of the railway. The communication through Epsom sonth.
wards was, in his opinion, the heaviest tonnage from London, in.
cluding timber, bark, paper, lime, and flour. There was certainly
no road on which there were so many waggons, the country eeing
altogether destitute of water conveyance.
The CHAIRMAN requested to be furnished with a return of the
toils at Letitherhead, Epsom, and Dorking, which
Mr. RAWLINSON, on the part of the promoters, promised to fur.
Dish ow Monday.

Ibe unittee then adjourned till twelve o'clock on that day.