The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

ties for education, and an equally great desire on the 1846, the hours of labour for females and young per-
part of the children and their parents, to avail them- sons shall be eleven. The Noble Lord said he would
selves of those facilities. 1 not fatigue the House, which had been already so in-
Sir J. GRAHAM said he could assure his Hon. dulgent to him, by going into details. He would quote
Friend that the caution which he had enjoined with the opinion of Mr. Homer, as stated in his report. He
respect to dealing with these great manufacturing in- said that in factories a restraint ought to be put upon the
terests, was a caution which, as far as he was labour of females, and of children, because where there
concerned, was altogether unnecessary ; for he was such a redundancy of labour, there could be no such
was anxious to give the best consideration to thing as practical freedom. Women in the manufac-
the subject under discussion. He admitted that turing districts were not free agents, they were obliged
in past legislation silk had been treated differently from to toil, and they were not able to bear fatigue to the
any other branch of the staple manufactures. The mo- same extent as men. The experience and knowledge of
tion of his Honourable Friend, as it now stood, would, all medical men was against their being employed in the
if carried, take silk altogether out of the operation manner they were at present. And, in his report of
of the present Bill. It was necessary to call the atten- December, 1841, Mr. Horner further stated that there
tion of his Hon. Friend to the portion of the children could be little doubt but that working ten hours a day
employed in the silk manufacture. lie thought that would be less prejudicial to health than working for
that if' any portion of this legislation was more de- twelve ; but without entering into the question of health
Tensible than another, it was that which referred to the I at all, such.an entire absorption of the labour and time
children engaged in this manufacture. The po- of the working classes, was in a moral point of view,
verty of the parents, notwithstanding their natural most objectionable. He (Lord Ashley) thought the
affections, led them to overwork their children, in order House had, to a great extent, to consider whether it was
to obtain the largest possible amount from their labour. better to have a moral population, with smaller wages
The legislation on this subject at the commencement of or a depraved people, with greater?—(Hear.) But he
the present session was first confined to apprentices, but was not by any means prepared to admit, at least to the
was afterwards extended to young children. At extent supposed by Honourable Gentleman opposite,
the present moment, in the silk trade generally, there that a diminution of the hours of labour would cause
was no limitation whatever with respect to the age at such a reduction of wages. In 1833 the hours of
which children might be employed. They might be labour of children in factories had been reduced
employed as early as five, six, or seven years of age. considerably ; yet when he (Lord Ashley) visited
There was a limitation with respect to time ; they could the manufacturing districts in 1836 he found that chil-
not be employed above ten hours, between the time dren had just as much wages then for eight hours' work
when they first entered the factories and thirteen years as they had previously for ten or twelve. In 1818 a pe-
of age. There was another distinction, that the children tition to that House was presented by Sir Robert Peel,
employed in silk did not require the certificate of father of the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her
education which was necessary in other cases. Majesty's Government, from the cotton-spinners of
He thought it of great importance, with respect to both Manchester, praying for a reduction in the hours of la-
these points, that the children employed in hour, and the Hon. Baronet on that occasion, in urging
the silk trade should be brought under the ge- the prayer of the petitioners, said they (the petitioners)
neral operation of the Act, and this Is as the were most anxious that the Legislature would interfere,
opinion formed by the Committee which sat in 1841. and that they would prefer a diminution in the comforts
He (Sir J. Graham) would now briefly state the course of life they were then enjoying to their present intoler-
he proposed to adopt with the portions of the Bill affect- able toil. In combatting his (Lord Ashley's) arguments
ing this portion of our industry. He must resist the the Hon. Member for Durham and the Hon. Member for
motion of his Hon. Friend, which would take the silk Manchester spoke in very high terms of the comfort of
trade entirely out of the operation of the Bill. In the the operatives, and of the wages those employed in the
75th clause were provisions which dealt particularly with factories could earn. Why, he thought that that argu-
the silk trade. In legislating upon this subject, they must ment was rather in favour of his (Lord Ashley's)
bear in mind the large proportion which the children proposition, for if they earned such large wages
employed bore to the adults employed—it was no less they could the better bear a diminution of them.
than as four to one. He should propose to omit certain He held in his hand certain returns, which would show
parts in the clause referred to, and then to enact that no that the operative population would not be injured by
children from eight to eleven years old should be employed any reduction in their wages, arising out of the limita •
in the silk manufacture more than six hours and a half ; tion to ten hours a-day of their labour. He took, in the
but that from eleven to thirteen they might be employed first place, the case of a single woman; he would sup-
for ten hours in winding and throwing ; and then at the pose that her earnings from work in the factory
age of thirteen, they should return under amounted to 9s. per week. Now it must be recollected
the general provisions of the Bill as it now by the House that there were many things to be done
stood. By the arrangement which lie proposed at her home which might be done by herself, but owing
to the House, they would, for the first time, impose a to the length of time she was, under the present
limit in regard to children, and which he (Sir J. Gm- system, engaged in the factory, he was compelled to
ham) certainly thought to be necessary. At the hire another person to do that work for her. The ex-
present moment there was no such limit. In penses of her washing, which, under a system of ten
this manner he was willing to hope the hours' labour, she would be enabled to do herself ;
just demands of the people engaged in the the loss arising from her meals being carried
silk trade would be met. When they came to the 75th to the factory, and other little matters, would amount to
clause of the Bill he should propose to remit the limi- about Is. 51d. per week. If she had to work but ten
tation as to children under 11 years of age, and intro- hours in the day she would save these expenses; and
duce words to carry out the arrangement he now sub- supposing her wages to be reduced one-sixth in conse-
mitted, which he sincerely trusted would, upon the quence of the reduction in the number of hours of
whole, be considered satisfactory to the various lute- labour, it would be seen that she would not be a loser
rests involved in this great and important branch of by the change. He would take the case of a family of
our trade. five persons, three of whom worked in a factory twelve
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he observed, with hours a day. The mother obtained 10s. a-week, the
some apprehension, the Bill which had been in- eldest child 4s. per week, and the second child 35.,
troduced by her Majesty's Government on the making in all 17s. per week. The expenses of washing,
subject of factories, because he believed that it mangling, &c , would amount to 2s. per week. A woman
was the first time that the silk manufacturers had would be required occasionally to assist the husband at
been put on the same footing as cotton manufacturers. home in the domestic work, and that would take another
These considerations operated so strongly upon the late shilling. He would then put down another shilling for
Government, that they brought in two Bills—one with the loss which would arise from the meals being carried to
respect to silk, and the other with respect to the factory, by which great waste was caused, inasmuch
cotton manufactures—and he confessed upon the whole as when several persons dined together, anything that was
that he thought it would facilitate the progress of the left might be put by towards another meal. A loss would
Bill if the Government adopted a similar course. He arise from the husband cooking the meals, for scarcely
thought, however, after what the Right Honourable any man, whether Frenchman or Englishman, could
Baronet had stated that the objection urged by the silk cook so economically as a woman.—(Laughter.) This
manufacturers had been fairly met ; and he believed loss lie estimated at another shilling, and these expenses
that his proposition would be satisfactory to the trade. together would amount to 55., which left 12s. for the
He hoped, therefore, that no obstacle would be thrown purchase of provisions, clothing, and other expenses.
in the-way of the Government. It was not his wish to Now that was the estimate under the system of twelve
see the silk trade excluded from the operation of a Fac- hours' labour. He would now state the amount of the
tory Bill. The silk manufacturers had the largest expenses for the same family, under a system of ten
amount of children employed in their factories. hours' labour. Supposing that the wages, in conse-
Mr. GRIMSDITCII thought that upon the whole the quence of the reduction of the number of hours of la-
plan of the Government would be satisfactory. hour, were to be reduced one-sixth, the wages of this
Sir G. STRICKLAND said that, in answer to those family would amount to 14s. 2d. Undera system of ten
who contended that it was impossible to carry on the hours' labour the woman would have time to do the
silk-manufacture if the hours of labour were limited, he washing of her own family at an expense of about one
would observe that the same argument had been used shilling. A woman would be required occasionally to
when it had been proposed to limit the hours of labour assist in cleaning the house, and that would take another
in the cotton manufactories. Experience, however, had sixpence, making one shilling and sixpence to be de-
taught them a different lesson. The hours of infant ducted from the 14s. 2d, reducing the wages to 12s.
labour had been limited, and none of the inconveniences Bd. per week. It would be seen, therefore, that rather
which had been foretold had occurred. The general than the family losing by any reduction in the amount
impression among the Members of the Committee of of their wages, they would be gainers by the change.
1841 was, that the silk-manufacturers had made out no These were the statements made by the operatives
case for exemption from the operation of the Bill. The re themselves. He held in his hand a note, from a person
were more children employed in the manufacture of silk who was on the spot, respecting the expenses of a
than in any other branch of manufactures, and, there- family—he took the case of a family of four
fore, they stood in need of greater protection. The persons working in a factory, all of whom were
rooms in which they worked were hot, and the nature of engaged in different kinds of labour. Each of those
the labour was the same as the labour in the cotton four persons had separate teas, and consequently four
manufacture. Those children were standing on their journeys were made in conveying the meals to the
legs for fourteen hours a day, and many of them walked factory. Under the present system of twelve hours'
twenty miles in the course of the day. He could not but labour, the full amount of victuals sent out was either
recollect the evidence of a surgeon, who was against any consumed, or destroyed, and great waste often took
restrictions on labour ; he stated that he considered the place. Now, under a system of ten hours' labour, only
exercise they took was healthy. He was asked if he three meals a day would be required. Under the present
had children of his own? He answered, yes. He was s) stem, such was the great exhaustion to which the
then asked if he forced his own children to take such labourer was subjected, that it was absolutely necessary
exercise? His answer was that they were not labourers. he should have at least four meals a day. Und( r a
Why no human being could say that a child of fourteen system of ten hours' labour, therefore, one meal a day
years of age ought to be forced toperform such herculean would be saved, besides the advantage of having the
labour, and he was sorry that the Right Hon. Baronet meals at home. The writer of the note he held in his
had consented to do as he had done. He was sorry hand said that, when he worked ten hours a day,
that he confined the relays to children between the ages in 1842, he never had more than three meals
of six and eleven. This was departing from the prin- a day ; but that, when he was working twelve
ciple of the Bill. He strongly urged the Committee not hours a day, in the same mill, he was abso-
hastily to make a distinction between silk, and cotton, lately obliged to have what were called " extras."
and other manufactures. These consisted of little delicacies, such as ham and
Mr. BANKES said if the Hon. Member for Cheshire other things, to enable him to go through the hours of
persisted in his amendment he would support it. The his daily labour. There was another point to be con-
persons engaged in the manufacture of silk claimed no sidered, and that was, that it required one child to carry
exemption from the protection given to those engaged meals from the home to the factory. Now, under a
in other branches. But they said that the work in the system of ten hours the labour of this child might be
silk factories was so different from that in the cotton employed more advantageously and profitably to its
and woollen mills, that the regulations that applied Sto parents. But the most unportant consideration of all
others would not apply to them. is as, that it was generally believed amongst the opera-
Mr. STRUTT said he did not think the Hon Ba- tives themselves, that if the hours of labour were to be
ronet could have much refreshed his memory by read- reduced from ten to twelve, it would have the effect of
ing the report before he spoke on the subject, so coin- prolonging for at least three years the term of their
pletely had he misrepresented the evidence.—(Hear, working life ; many went as far as to say that it would
hear.) With regard to the temperature in the silk prolong. their working life as much as five years. He
factories, so far from its being the case that it was very had only one other fact, which was a very remarkable
high in them, the fact was, that the work could not be one, with reference to this subject which he would trouble
carried on if the temperature was not kept cool.— the House with, and that was a table showing the num-
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet then alluded to what ber of criminal offences committed in England and
had been said of a surgeon, who happened to be a con- Wales in the year 1841. From that the House might
stituent of his (Mr. Strutt's) own. It was true that he judge of the condition, or rather the moral character, of
had stated that the children ran from fifteen to twenty the females in the manufacturing districts. The pro.
miles. But this occurred in the case of working at portion of females committed for offences was much
sowing silk—a process in which there was no machinery greater in the manufacturing and commercial counties
whatever, and which was something like that of rope- than in the agricultural counties. He took 13 mann-
making.-4Hear, hear.) This was not a case which facturing, and 13 agricultural counties ; and in 1841 the
could be reached by legislation.—(Hear, hear.) The number of females committed in the agricultural districts
Hon. Baronet then said that the children worked for was one to six males, and in the manufacturing and
thirteen or fourteen hours; but in the town of Derby commercial counties one to three males. Now he would
there was not a single mill which worked more than ten appeal to the House to consider the position in which
hours.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that, on the whole, this question was placed. He would tell her Majesty's
some of the silk manufacturers would prefer being left Government that it was not a new matter—it was not
out of the Bill altogether. But he thought they would now propounded for the first time—for the last twelve
be satisfied with the suggestion of the Right Hon. Ba- years it had been gradually growing Op. Let the Go-
ronet, and he therefore hoped his Hon. Friend would vernment bear in mind what was the position of the
not press his amendment. question now, after a majority of that House had affirmed
Mr. 'l'. EGERTON said that, after the suggestion of it—a majority involving the representatives of the
the Right Honourable Baronet, he would not press his greatest of the commercial constituencies in the kingdom
amendment. —(Cheers)—and supported by the fervid and undy-
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the clause ing sympathy of this country.—(Cheers.) Did they
agreed to. think it wise—did they think it just, to reverse such a
Clauses 3,4, 5, and 6, were agreed to without discus- nighty decision by the simple exercise of official autho-
sion. On clause 7 being proposed, . rity?—(Cheers.) He appealed to the House whether,
Mr. ALDAM said that the woollen manufacturers after having excited such bright hopes and expectations,
objected to the seventh clause. they would now destroy that hope which had been called
Mr. SHEPHERD said he wished to correct a nsis- into life amongst the great body of our manufacturing
representation which had occurred in reference to what population—he called upon them not to do so—from the
he had said the other night. He wished now to state bottom of his heart he called upon them to do justice to
that in the town of Frome, children were altogether ex- the sympathy which had been evinced by the whole
eluded from the factories. The men and women and country on this subject—to do justice to their own cha-
young persons usually worked twelve hours, and it meter, and not turn round upon their decision and de-
would be very injurious to their interests if they were stroy its effect. He called upon them to have regard
prevented from so doing. for the character they occupied in the country, and to
Mr. VERNON SMITH said the whole argument the character they occupied iu the minds of all the
really turned upon the words "no female of any age," nations of the world. Did they think that the
and to these words, and to the principle embodied in feeling which had been excited amongst the people
them, he entirely objected. He thought it was a very would ever rest until they arrived at that con-
dangerous principle to introduce that of restricting the summation which was so much desired ? He could
labour of adult males or females in manufactories. The assure the Government that if they succeeeded
House had, on one or two occasions, decided on inter- that night--he did not believe they would—but he could
fering with the labour of the helpless. They had inter- assure them, that if they succeeded that night, it would
fered between the parent and the child, but that was only be to give additional vigour and additional determi-
because the parents made use of the labour of their nation to those who had so long maintained the principle
children in a manner to seriously injure their health, he was then advocating. If they succeeded that night,
and sometimes even to destroy life. But he had heard their success would have the effect of prolonging the
no argument brought forward why men and women sufferings and the evils which he had described. But
above the age of twenty-one years should not be allowed they might depend upon it that the sympathy of man-
to work as at present in factories. He had given his kind and the feeling of the country would compel them
vote with great pleasure to the proposition of his Noble ultimately to surrender, and they would surrender at
Friend opposite (Lord Ashley), but they were now lay- last, when the boon would have lost all its grace, and he
ing down a very important principle—interfering with, feared would be of little remedial power. The Noble
and restraining the labour of adults in factories, and Lord concluded by moving that the labour in factories
which, if carried into operation might very seriously be ten hours instead of twelve, intimating that if this
prejudice the best interests of this country. If it were motion should be carried, he should then move a proviso
persevered in, he should certainly divide the House on that it should not come into operation until 1846.
the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Sir WILLIAM CLAY said it that was his intention to
Sir JAMES GRAHAM must frankly express Iris oppose the motion of the Noble Lord ; but while he did
concurrence in what had fallen from the Right Hon. so he would give the Noble Lord full credit for the
Gentleman who had just sat down, regarding the im- humane and exalted sentiments he had expressed. He
portance of the words of the clause alluded to by him; could not, however, think that the Noble Lord had made
and he further agreed with him in bel eying that the out a case sufficiently strong to justify the Government
present was the first time that restraint was sought to be in adopting his proposaL He did not think that the
imposed on adult labour in factories. But he was under remedy proposed by the Noble Lord would have the
the impression that female labour, under peculiar cir- effect of removing the evils of which the Noble Lord
cumstances, required restraint. For instance, married complained. He thought, on the contrary, that the
women, under the control of their husbands ; children proposal of the Noble Lord would aggravate rather
under the control of their parents ; and women in a de- than diminish the evil. He did not think that the labour
licete condition. At present there were frequent in- performed in factories was so severe as to call for le-
stances, he believed, where the class of persons he had gislative interference. In the opinion expressed by
enumerated worked in a manner inconsistent with their medical men, as to the effect of factory labour, there
health, and it was necessary the Legislature should in-' were great discrepancies. It was a remarkable fact, that
terfere. He hoped the House would accede to the those medical men who were of opinion that factory
proposition. labour was injurious to health, were persons not per-
After a few words from Sir W. CLAY, which were sonally conversant with the subject. Medical men
not audible, the clause was agreed to. resident on the spot, in the midst of the factory popu-
On clause 8 being proposed, lation, were decidedly of a contrary opinion. If the House
Lord ASHLEY rose to move as an amendment, were to refer to the sanatory reports, they would find
that the word e tee be substituted for the that the average duration of life amongst the labouring
word 6, twelve," and in the event of this amendment population of the manufacturing districts was greater
being carried, to add a proviso, to the effect that the than amongst persons of a similar class in the large
restriction of the hours of labour to ten in the day shall towns. For instance, the mean duration of life of persons
only take effect on the Ist of October, 1846 ; and that, employed in factories in Manchester ss as not less than
from the let of October next until the Ist of October, the mean duration of life amongst persons in a similar