The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-09 00:00:00

GROUP KK

LIVEHPOCL Ara ID MANCHESTER. EXTMN.

SIOU.

Mr. Woods, the engineer of the Liverpool and Manchester line
gale evidence confirmatory of Mr. Lowndes' statement on Satur-
day, which appeared in our paper of that day. At the close of thin
examination

Mr Sergeant BELLasts said he appeared for Lord Francis
Egerton and several landowners along the line, and also
for the Liverpool and Manchester Railway Company. The
avowed objects of the Liverpool and Bury line were to extend com-
munication between those towns and that of Bolton, but the real
objects of the promoters were, first, to compete with the Man-
chester and Liverpool Railway, and, secondly, to deprive it of
the traffic of the great towns of Yorkshire. He hoped the project
would find no favour with the Committee, and that the Legislature
would avoid:striking so heavy a blow against that which was the pa-
rent of the railway system in this country. He did not deny that the
present communication between Liverpool and the towns at which
the proposed line would touch; was at present imperfect, aid re-
quired amendment. He did not deny that there was at present a good
deal of delay in the transference of goods, particularly at the Balto❑
station; but the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, which he re-
presented, would propose a far more eligible communication than
that projected by the promoters of this Bill. The Learned
Sergeant went on to say that the witnesses upon the other side
had greatly exaggerated the traffic and passenger communication
between these towns, and said he would produce evidence to show
that the calculations upon the other side were utterly erroneous
and unfounded, in some cases the amount being doubled, in others
tripled, in very many, indeed, quadrupled, and in not a few cases
not a single pound having left the place where thousands of tons
were said to have been transhipped. The line which he proposed
was from Lowestoft, on the Bolton and Preston line, three miles
from Bolton, to join the Manchester and Liverpool line at Newton.
He had authority to state that this line would be carried
out for trial by the Manchester and Liverpool Railway,
if it met with the sanction of Parliament. The line
he proposed would pass through some of the richest coal.
fields in England. He was surprised at the Board of Trade for
reporting in favour of the Liverpool and Bury line, and made
sure that report had bee❑ founded on misrepresentation's made
to them. The report set forth that the resources of the
Liverpool and Manchester line were all engaged in the
main line. Such was not the fact. There were only four subscri-
bers from Bury, and five from Bolton in favour of the Liverpool
and Bury line. A single shareholder in Liverpool had bought
more shares in the line than all the inhabitants of Bolton together.
The Liverpool and Bury line was a crude, hasty, and imperfect
scheme, and could only have originated in the present speculative
mania. The Liverpool and Manchester line would be on a level with
the docks, whereas the terminus of the other, would be forty feet
high, and some hundred yards from the docks. The stations pro-
posed by his clients were far more comprehensive, and they
could accommodate infinitely more persons than the other. The
traffic tables on the other side were altogether wrong, and he
could not but think the Board of Trade must have come
to its conclusion from these erroneous figures. The Man-
chester and Liverpool Railway had already done much--they
had gone to an expense of 250,0001. to join the Man-
chester and Liverpool Railway with the Leeds Railway. The
case which he had laid before them he would prove by witnesses.
Mr. Henry Bradshaw was agent to the Bolton and Leigh Rail.
way Company, and had been so for sixteen years. Had examined
the traffic tables sent to the Board of Trade by the pro-
moters of the Liverpool and Bury line, and found them incorrect.
The traffic between Bolton and Liverpool was stated by them to be
53,506 tons, whereas it was only 25,600 tons. It was said upon
the other side that the traffic between Bolton and Wigan was In
minerals, &c., 268,450 on the Bolton and Leigh Railway—that
statement had no existence in fact ;the goods did not pass to and
from those towns.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—The foot:passage traffic was
between Wigan and Bolton. Bolton contained 90,000, and Wigan
60,000 inhabitants. Mr. Hargrave's lease in canal and railway
would end with the present year.

Mr. Henry Abrahams, stop gate-keeper on the Leeds and Liver-
pool Canal—The annual traffic was 424,761 tons.

The witness was not cross-examined.

Mr. Wahnsley Stanley, engineer to the Lewis and Liverpool
Canal Company—Fourteen miles of this canal ran through a coal
Held, exclusive of 6 miles near Leigh. They had 11 curves for
coal wharfs in Liverpool. It was essential there should be a com-
munication of this kind for coal traffic.
At the termination of this witness's evidence the Committee ad-
journed to the following day.

GROUP L.

PORTSMOUTH ATMOSPHERIC LINE.

The inquiry on this line was returned at twelve o'elock to-day,
Mr. E. B. Denison in the chair, when

Mr. RAWLINBON called Mr. Piokford, lessee of the Epsom tolls,
who stated that the tolls were heavier than on any other road out of

London.

Mr. Evrett, an extensive contractor for tolls, stated, in reply to
the Chairman, that there was no road which had been so little in.
terfered with as this had.

Mr. White, surveyor of the Horsham and Dorking Trust,
which began at Horsham and ended in the town of Epsom, a dis.
tance, including a branch to Horsham, of 26 miles. The tolls from this
trust:might be divided into four heads, public conveyances,3Bll 68.6 d.
post and job work, 88/. ss. 10d. ; private conveyances,
5181. 14s. 4d. ; and heavy carriage, 1,120/. Bs. 10d.—making a
gross toll of 2,1081. 15s. 6d. The number of horses that passed
was 126,588, and the tonnage 86,903 tons. He was also sur-
veyor of the Leatherhead and Kingston road. It Was from the
latter place that two-thirds of the coals were brought to Dorking
and the surrounding country. The price of coals at that place was
38s. to 40s , out of which 12s. was for carriage, the tonnage being
about 14,000 tons.
Mr. Popo, the eminent coal merchant, stated that he had been
the first person to send coals by the South-Western Railway. For
the carriage of coal the charges were—for unloading Bd. a
ton; lighterage, 9d. to 10d.; unloading and warehousing, 7d. ;
and meterage, 3d.; one-half of the meterage the captain
paid; so that the cost of getting coals to the South -West-
ern Railway is Os. 4d. a ton. To the Brighton Rail.
way the united charges were 2s. 1 lid. a ton, but he
was making a dock and wharf at Deptford-creek, which he was
under a bond to the Greenwich Railway Company to make a public
wharf; and from that wharf, which was between Greenwich Hos-
pital and Deptford Dockyard, he could unload the ships at a half.
penny a ton, and get coals on to the Greenwich Railway for 4d.
Had an agreement with the Greenwich Railway Company to carry
for another 4d. ; the wharfage would be 2d. ; and meterage I id, a ton,
so that he could supply coals at Dorking for the same price as he
could send them to Charing-cross. He had had a ship of 280 tons
unloaded in the dock, and there would be every facility for the
transit of goods, not only along the proposed:atmospheric line, but
also with the North Kent to Chatham. He also sent a great
quantity of shoddy, a peculiar kind of manure applied to the hop
grounds about Dorking, and there was a good deal of lime which
came up from that part of the country.
To the cross-examination of Mr. CocKBURN, Mr. Pope stated
that he had completed his own side of the dock since he gave his
evidence on the Epsom line last year, at a cost of about 2,0001.,
but the other side was as yet incomplete in consequence of the
transactions between the Greenwich Railway Company and the
South-Eastern Company. One side of the dock was his own
freehold, but the other side had been leased of the Greenwich Rail-
way Company for 99 years, and they were under an agreement to
complete that side of the dock within two years from last Decem-
ber. The cost to them would be from 3001. to 500/,. and, of
course, the South-Eastern Company, would be glad to complete their
side of the dock, because it would bring a good deal of tonnage to
their line. In his opinion, the means which he adopted for
the tranference of the coals from the ships to the railway wag.
gons was much more economical.
Mr. Barclay, M.P. for Sunderland, residing at:Eastwich Park,
near Leatherhead, stated the whole of the country in his neigh-
bourhood was very much in want of railway communi,
cation. The nearest station was at Esher on the South.
Western line, and the time occupied in getting to the
City was about two hours and twenty minutes, and
the mode of conveyance was expensive. The whole of the
country was thickly studded with the villas of gentlemen connected
with commercial affairs, and who very frequently came to London.
His own place was 2 miles from Leatherhead, on the Guildford
roast, and about 6 miles from Epsom. On the whole the London.
bridge terminus was by far the most convenient, and there was no
other railway which offered any facilities for conveyance.
Mr. Joseph Cubitt, engineer, stated that he was the acting
engineer in laying out the proposed line, in which he had enjoyed
the benefit of his father's assistance. The line began at the ter-
mination of the Epsom line, which was 18 miles 5 furlongs from
Dorking, thence by Leatherhead, and a tunnel at Norbury Park, 453
yards long, to Wootley-ridge, which they passed by a tunnel 660 yards
long, thence to the ridge on which Hasiemere stands, which they
passed by a tunnel of 1,733 yards long, at a distance of thirty miles ;
thence to: Lippock, four miles; thence to Petersfield, eight miles;
and rising to the South-down Hills, which they passed by a tunnel
1,254 yards long; thence by Idsworth and Rowland's Castle,
through a short tunnel of 140 yards in length, to Havant, eleven
miles; and thence by Bedhampton to Portsmouth, seven
miles, making the total length of line sixty miles
three, chains, and the whole distance from London
nearly seventy-nine miles. The heaviest cutting would
be forty feet deep, and would require 327,000 yards of
earthwork, wad the greatest embankment would require 22,000
yards of earthwork, and would be about twenty-eight feet high
—about fifteen miles from Epsom. The deepest gradient was 1 in
80, and the gradients gradually decreased 1 in 475. The horizontal
was seven miles long, and the rest of the railway was
laid out in the gradients, the steepest being about four miles long.
The Chichester Branch was about 3i miles long, and the rest was
easy in gradients. There were no curves of less than half a mile
radius. The works were certainly heavy, but easy of execution.
The total estimate was 1,407,165!., including land. That was on
the principle of a single atmospheric line, but the land taken
was sufficient for a double line. The estimate included the
pipe and the electric telegraph, but not the working plant nor any
compensation for the patent right, the last being included in the
working cost. The railway might be opened in two yoars from its
commencement. The estimate covered the Chichester branch, and
in the whole comprised a distance of 69 miles. The proposed line
certainly went through a country far more deficient in the means
of conveyance than that through which the Chichester and Guild-
ford line passed. He had laid out a branch to Guildford,
and had surveyed another to Reigate, the plans of the
latter of which had been deposited, but both were abondoned
at a late period.
To the cross-examination of Mr. CocaatlaN—Mr. Cubitt stated
that the first and principal cutting was in clay, and was proposed
to be 3 to I in slope, and was to be 24 feet deep at bottom. There
were 34 other cuttings passing through chalk sand and clay,
varying from 1 to 1 in slope to 1 in 3, and from 30 to
50 feet in :depth, and being from half a furlong to
miles from each other. The total quantity of earth-
work would be 4,233,779 yard and of embankment 2,02,858
yards, effected at a charge of from 9d. to Is. 3d. a yard. The
charge far tunnelling at Norbury would be 30/. a yard, at Woot-
ley 45/., at Haslemere 451., and at Buriton, 30/. a yard. Tne
total cost of the tunnelling would be 163,1851., and for the earth-
work 200,2451. The bridges and culverts would cost just the
amount, 200,2451. The permanent way would be made at a cast
of 2,600/. a mile, being for ballast 660/., sleepers 4401., chairs
931. 175., intermediate ;chairs 281/. 155., rails at 50Ibs
per yard, 2911., and the laying 1704 making a total
cost being 166,4001. for the main line, and the branch
25,4001. The vacuum tube and the electric telegraph would cost
4,5001. a mile, making a total cost in that department of 270,700/
The vacuum tube on the main line was to be 18 inch on the main
line, and would require 320 tons s mile; that on the branch line
would be 15 inch, and would require 264 tons of metal two miles.

The cost of the electric telegraph woiltd be 12,000/ , and
the cost of laying that and the vacuum tube would be
240/. a mile. The cost on the branch line to
Chichester :would be, for fencing, 2.8001. a mile; earth.
work, 9,3211.; for bridges, 27,740/. ; permanent way, 23,4001. ,
for vacuum tube, 37,028/. ; for the electric tube, 1,750/. ; land,
14,6021.; and for contingencies and stations, 9,9871. a mile; mak-
ing a total for the branch line of 127,235/., and for the main line,
1,279,9301. The number of stations on the main line was pro-
posed to be thirteen, erected at a cost of 61,0001., and there would
be two stations on the branch line. The stationary engines were
now strietly within his department, but be believed that they were
to be at a distance of three miles from each other, and were to be
double engines of, together, 130 horse power.
Mr. GUNNING appeared for Lord Grantley, who has an estate
near Woncrsh, and endeavoured to elicit from Mr. Cubitt that the
direction of the line had been needlessly altered. It appeared that
the nearest point of the railway would be within 150 yards of
Lord Grantley's house, where there would be an embankment about
27 feet high, but the viilage of Wonersh lay between the two.
There was, however, a portion of the line not more than 300
yards from the house, where there was no building to intercept the
sight of the railway. The radius of curve at the park was about
three-quarters of a mile.
To the cross-examination of Mr. M. SMITE!, Mr. Cubitt stated
that there would be seven roads crossed at a level, and he proposed
to cross the line by small balance bridges, which were to remain
up generally, and which would be lowered over the tube whenever
a carriage wanted to pass over, and a man would be placed at
those points to lower and raise the bridges.
To the cross-examination of Mr. WADDINGTON, Mr. Cubitt
stated that the branch line would leave the main line at Havant,
and he proposed to use the station of the Brighton and Chichester
line at Chichester.

To the cross-examination of Mr. RAWLINSON, the witness
stated that the main rooms looked away from the line down
the opposite valley, and that there was a wall twelve feet
high at the back of the premises, and the whole
of the village between the house and the railway. It was intended
to pass the canal by a viaduct screened from the house, except the
upper windows, by a woop. The line would run about 200 yards
from Gosden House, the seat of Mr. Sparks, but it went altogether
through farming ground, and he did not think that any ornamental
property whatever would be disturbed. They had contracted for
the atmospheric tube at Si. 15s. a ton, while that on the Epsom
and Croydon line was to be 71. 15s. a ton. The rails on this hoc
were to be 111. 103. per ton.

To the inquiries of Mr. M. MILNER—The witness stated that the
great foaturea of the line had been adopted from the beginning, and
he had adopted this line, because from Godalming it was the
shortest, and enabled him to jein the atmospheric line at Epsara ;
and he did not think that the advantage of the better gradients, on
the other line, was worth consideration.

To the inquiries of Lord CLIVE, the witness stated that there
would be nineteen engine station between London and Portsmouth,
and there would be five or six crossing places on the line. There
would be a means of communicating, Isy the olectric telegraph,
between station and station.

To Mr. OSWALD—The witness said that the heaviest portion o!
the line was between Godalming and Dorking; and the steepest
gradient, lin 80, was on the way to Harant. There were many
gradients steeper than this, there being one on the incline plane of
the Birmingham line of lin 37. The tunnels were 14 feet char
way, and 16 feet high, char. The brick work was to be 18 inches
in the chalk, and 2 feet 6 inches in the sand and clay. He could
not spzak as to the opportunity of continuing the traffic, if the
tunnels were to be enlarged the tunnels for a double line, nor could
he estimate the expenses, but the proportion might be half as
much again-
The Committee here adjourned till twelve o'clock to.morrow.