The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-23 00:00:00

THE FINANCES.

Mr. MaBERLY, in rising pursuant to his .notice,
stated, that 'his reason tor moving War certain
documents connected with the Finances of the
Country should be produced, was the necessity
which he conceived existed that those papers
should now be laid upon the table of the House,
in order that there might be full time for their
consideration between the period of the adjourn-
ment • and the re-assembling of the House. He
had hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site would have made no objection to their pro-
duction, but he regretted to find that that was not
to be the case with respect to some of theni, and
should therefore move for them separately, in the
hope;hat he should learn from that Right Hon.
Gentiethan the nature of his objections. He then
moved for an account of the net amount of the
Revenue of tie Unired Kingdom, trona the sth of
January 1819 to the 10th of October 1819, dis-
ringuishrng each quarter, and separating Ireland
from Great Britain.

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER should say
no more on the present otcasion, than that it was
usual for an Hon. Member when making a mo-
tion, to state the grounds on which he proposed it
19 the House. Did the Hon. Gentleman only
mean that the papers moved for should be laid on
the table before the adjournment, in order to be
taken it'll) consideration immediately after the
Recess When the lion. Gentleman considered
that the close of the financial year was at hand,
when all accounts must be made up, he would
probably he disposed to wait till after the Recess,
when he could have the whole produced together,
whilst they would now only come down to the
10111 of October. To the production of the pre-
sent Return he had no objection. The motion
having.been agreed to,
Mr. MaisErtev said, that he was aware-that if he
had waited till after• the adjournment, the accounts
would have been produced in a more regular
order. But the Right Hon. Gentleman knew
very well that the appropriation accounts were not
laid on the table before the 25th of March. They
•were afterwards ordered to be printed, and it fie-
qoently happened that. Members could :lot see
them till the Seskiontwas nearly over.. The Speaker
with that attention to-the wishes and convenience
of Members, for which he was so highly distin-
guished,—(dear, hear, hear !)—had caused the
printing of some to he hastened at his request last
Session, and he took this opportunity of rentm-
ing his sincere. thanks: But if the usual course
were adopted, the House would nut be able to
discuss the state of the Finances till a very late
period of the year. He should ask tl►e Right
Honourable Gentleman whether it would be Pro 7
per to postpone so-important an investigation, at
a tune when the situation of the country was so
unsettled and alarming ? He should now move for
an account of the amount received from the New
Duties imposed in July 1819, to the latest period
at which the said could be made up, distinguish-
ing each Duty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER should
propose an amendment to this motion, limiting
the making op of the return to the 10th of Octo-
ber, because all accounts were complete up ,to
that period. The House must be aware that the
payments of the Revenue were received with a
certain degree of irregularity, which rendered it
impracticable to judge of the produce of-the whole
quarter from a part. Now he took •the object of
the Hon. Member to he, the ascertaining what
inferences could be deduced .from the produce of
the new Taxes. That object would be better at-
tained by having complete statements to the 10th
of October, than by partial returns to a later
period. He had expected that the lion. Gentle-
man would have given something like a general
statement of the object which lie had in view, but
no information of that kind had as yet been af-
forded to the House. With respect to the pre-
sent motion, he thought it would be as well to
confine it to the produce of the Excise Duties, as
it would be very difficult, if not impracticable,
within the time, to dissect the fractiond parts of
the new Custom Duties from the general produce
of those Duties. He should therefore propose•an
amendment, that the Return be limited to the 10 h
of October, and should merely distinguiSh the
Customs from the Excise Duties.

Mr. MAIIISRLY had said, in a concise manner,
that he t►►ought those Papers necessary before it
was possible to inquire into the state of the Fi-
nances, in order that that state should be well
understood. It would be impracticable for the
House to enter into such an investigation if it
had no facts on its• table. He therefore'trnsted
that he had sufficiently explained his motive,
though not in a long speech. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had calculated on the new duties be-
ing productive, and no one rejoiced more than he
had done at the statement put forth this night
respecting the Revenue. The Right Hon. Gen•
tlem,:n had relied last year on' raising a total of
3,190,0001.- by means of those New Duties, viz.
500,0001. front the Consolidation of the Cus-
toms, and 2 G 90,0001. from Excise Duties. He
had besides transferred 1,000,0001. from the
Customs to the Excise.; the whole, therefore,
now -formed-A complicated and' varied subject,
and he wished to have a full view of the pro-
duce of every branch, in order to ascertain what
probability there was of being able- to. realize
the 3,190,0001. He was aware of the objec-
tion' which the Right Honourable Gentleman
might start he might say that many of those
duties did nor come in till the 10th of October.
The New Malt Duty was not- paid in till the
middle of No-culber but at all events something

most haTC come in between the months of Jail
anti December. He had understood, indeed, that
little had come in on the new ditties, or if they had
been productive, that the old duties had almatt
entirely fallen off. If 'newspaper Acconn e.;were
to be mentioned in that House, the Cust is had ,'
fallen off, between July and Ocyber, 90 ,49001.
ot 1,000,0001. and it was said that they continued
to decrease at the rate of 40 or 50,0001. per
week. He therefore trusted that the House would
not think it unnecessary to be in possessiobof
facts before it came to a discussion on subjects of
that importance. With respect to the amendment
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, -be thought 'big
objection reasonable. It would certainly be diffi-
cult to dissect the tractional parts of the ne,f.
Custom Duties from the rest. Ile should there-
fore agree to the amendment, but he hoped that
it would remain open for him to move, after the
Recess, that Returns should he made from the
.10th October, to that period,—(Hear.)
The CitaNctit.t.oit. of the EXCHEQUER 8110111 d •
certainly_ not object to the production of the Ile-.
turns at that time, when the whole of the finals-

cial year would have closed. He should nowt
only state, that down to the end of the month of
November, the whole amonnt of the Old Duda
had (as we understood) been something less (hail
1000/. under the produce of the corresponding
quarter in the preceding year, and that the now
Excise Duties had produced 236,0001. 150,0001.
of which had been received before the entl of Cie-.
tober, and the rest since.

Mr. TIERNEY snggested that as weekly Returns
of the Revenue were, made out for his Majesty's
Government, there would be no great difficulty in
producing the accounts down to the period noW
proposed.

Mr. HusxtssoN was understood to object to
the production of such weekly accounts, which,
besides, had nothing to do with the question beo
fbre the House.
Mr. TIEHNRY wished to know how Much Ma•
ney had been received -upon the whole. The aca
counts had long since been made up to the Nth
of October, and published iu ail the newstotpersl
what' it was important to ascertain was, tlic
amount• of the receipts since that period. Had
Parliament sat till the 10th of January, he should
have been for giving up the present motion, ss
the accounts might have been produced complete;
but when the Right Hon. Gentleman had beets
venting forth his pleasing forebodings. lie wished
to see whether they rested on facts. IVith
re-
s}sect to the Papers asked for, he considered theta
so much a matter of course, that with all his expe-
rience, he should not have thought it intpr.;per
to move for them without any previous notice.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected
to furnishing the Accounts of a broken quarter. •
Mr. TIERNEY.--If the Right Hon. 6entlemaa
objects to this, he will be exercising more powa
than ever Mr. Pitt hail.

flusKissoN observed, that the Accounts
would be generally known to the whole public inr.
the usual means on the 6ch of January, whethcc
the House was sitting or not.
The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHEauEtt then stet
ed, that the amount of the New Duties receives
up to the 10th November, was 10001. at the Duff
on Wool, and 236,0001. on the General Account-

A Gentleman under the Gallery, whose nattat
we could not ascertain, objected to the unintelli.•
gibility of the public accounts, and suggested that
a Committee to regulate them would be as bone'
ficial ficial as one on the subject of economy.
The motion, as amended, was put and agree('
to;

Mr. MABERLY, preparatory to moving his
third resolution, made a few observations rela.
tiveto the payment of, the interests of the losing
of 1818 and 1819. He said, there was a year's
interest of the loan of 181,8, and half a year's 10-•
west of the loan of 1819 ; and there was only s
provision of 237,0901. from the new duties,.
The-re had been an Act passed also to enable the
Right Hon. Gentleman to repay 5 ,000 ,0001. tO
the Bank, and the deficiencies on this fund were
charged on the Consolidated Fund, without API
assets to meet the charges. The Bank Director's
had ;tilted too, that they could not return to east'
payments untesS they had a controul over their
issues, and they could not have such a controls!'
unless they were repaid the sum which they 110
advanced to Government. He then moved for
"an account of the deficiency of fhe Consolidates
Fund on the 10th of October, 1819, together writ'
an.account of the manner in which the same w'sl
made good.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated ra
reply, that there was a surplus on the fund at ties
elate specified, though he did not mean to deal
that there was a large deficiency on former sums'
He did not object to the motion, which was se
cordingly put, and agreed to.
.Alr. MABERLY' next moved for an Account of
the Amount payable out of the Consolidated Filo'
from the sth of July, 1818, to the sth October,
1819, for the interest of the loans of 1819 ad
1819, distinguishing the quarters, &c.—Agreed
Also an account showing how the five milliatl°
voted to pay the Bank had been applied, distill'
guishiug the dates of the several payments.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Salt!, 0h
lion. Gentleman had now come to those of hts
Resolutions, which he should feel it to be hif
duty to oppose or to modify. These ResolntioV6
were divisible into two parts : the first, affectiog
the finance of the country generally : the secodf
the transaction between Government and 111
Bank, in order to bring before the House rboj
proceedings which had been arranged and agree!
to by Parliament, with a view to the resumpti°
of cash payments.. It might not be unnecriss"
for him to offer a few remarks and explanations°
the former subject, especially after the incredulitye
which had been expressed by Gentlemen on chi
other side, and the sarcasms and'mitrepresenttili°ll
which had been resorted to out of the Houseuto
j
induce a belief of the failure of the 6"
depress the public mind on questions of the dEe#
most consequence. The House was well assahre
of the falling off during the quarter ending 00 CPc,
10th of October, whets compared with the c°
responding quarter of the year. In the Gait)
toms alone, it. amounted to 960,0001.; and=iii
other branches which lie particularized to ceilsl,
sums, making a total deficiency of .1,15L°0 of
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this dekPleat ion teas- in the item of Customs ; and
there were several circumstances which led to
this result. It had been well .kirown, that there
%liras to be a consolidation of the Custom Duties
to the sth of July, and, consequently, every
one who, had goods was anxious to clear them
by that date. The extra quantity cleared in
the preceding quarter, naturally diminished the
amount of the next quarter. He ought also
to notice, as another reason, the great stagnation
in the foreign trade. The exports, in ISIS, fell
short by 7 millions of the exports_ in 1819, and
the imports of necessity fell off in a similar pro-
poi tion. But he was prepared to state as his. firm
totiviction, that there was nothing alarming in
these circumstances. It was not by the Customs,
*which applied to external operations, -but to the
txci4, which measured . internal consumption,
'Get they were to look for the criterion of t he
na-
t►otr's prosperity. In the Excise there seemed to
be no diminution, and this proved that the 'actual
consumption of the country was as great as ever,
than which there could be no surer sign. of its
welfare. With leave of the House, he would lay
before it a short statement on this point, com-
ing the average consumption of the three years,
up to 1818, with the cousumptiou of 1819.
- In the former the consumption of Tea was..lbs. 21,629,000
In the latter
Being an increase of
Of Tobacco and Snuff, 1818
1819
lialt.was not vel made up.
Of British arid Irish Spirits, 1818
1819
Increase
Of Wines, 1818 ..
1319
Of Rum, Isis
1819
Of Brandy aed Geneva there was also an increased
ezoasemie ion ot Cendl s, to a contiler,,hle
*mount; Leal her, an increase of dory of 10.0001 ;
snil Salt, 12,0001. These facts, in his opinion,
not only afro/ ded the hest hopes f.f a steady re-
Venue, hot also proved that the local.. distress
(wbieh rio one regretted more than he dUI) had
trot affected the general comforts of the people,
aince it vas evident that more of those things
hicA were necessary, to their etijeyment were
coloormed now ;ban at any preceding period.—
They also afforded notch consolatton tor the par•
tie' failure 'in the Customs ; and before be cone
chided what [tetrad to say on this subject he would
mention one other item, the more seto.factory, as
it also showeil an increased employment of the peo-
ple, nentely,printed calicoes,on which the augmen-
-tation was 50 .0001. It further afforded him pleasure
to be able to say, that since the 10th ot October,
both the Customs and the Excise hail improved,
and gave reason to expect that the produce 'll6-
i:irately would he equal to !bat of the largest year.
—(Hear !)—lt he did not produce any statements
to evidence this to the House, it was because any
broken part of a-quarter twist he imperfect, and
Might lead to conclusions which e-ould not be
realized ; hut the fact, to the presetit period, was
as be bad assured them ; :red up to last Saturday
the revenue was only 150,0001. short of the
preceding year.—( Hear, hear, hear !)—With re
spect to the arrangements with the Bank, the
lion Membev had ,hewn no reason for the inter-
fereeee of the House. was not usual in pending
neg.,ciations of a diplomatic nature to interfere,
unless there was a well tonnded suspicion excited
Against the proceedings of the Government. He
bad an ohjectiOn to it also, on the ground of its
produci,g, though lit' knew the imputattoe could
Dot apply to the Hon. Mover, stock-jobbing ope-
irations. Of the emonet•for which funds had been
provided by Verlieurent, a large soot lead been paid
to the Rank, and measures were in progress to pay
the whole amount before the sth of April. With re-
spect to the actual amount in the Exchequer, no
ififorniation could be ascertained on that head, as
it was the duty Of Government to keep the cash
low for the sake of the interest. In respect to
She other motion of the Honourable Member,
lie bad to state, that no advances had been
Made on the land and malt taxes. There re-
Mahled one other subject on which he wished to
offer a few observations. A sensation of alarm
bad been excited ie the public mind, relative to
the transrer of capital from this to foreign coun-
tries—to France particularly. After the best in-
quiries he was able to make, he. believed that
these transfers were neither very considerable in
amount, nor likely to be permanent. The best
inoot of their not being extensive as to amount
%vas, that they had not affected the exchange be-
tween the .two countries. • That they were not
likely to be permanent, he believed, when ite was.
tenerallv known that an Englishman having in-
'vested money in the Frencle funds; had no power
diepoeing of thit property on
.his death by will.
It went to his children, no matter what might
Pave been his testamentary disposition. The
Light Honourable Gentleman, in support of that
referred to the work of Monsieur Le
emits on the laws of Fiance, and to the work of
11r. Bristead, of America, who, in adverting to
that fact, had attributed the preeminence of
Englaud to its law of priMogeniture, and its
Power of testamentary disposition. The Right
Honourable Gentlemau proceeded to say, that
'hether, he was right or wrong in the doctrine
Le advanced, the subject was only collateral with
that which was before the House, and he should
lit clown, repeating his determination to -oppose
the motion.

Mr. Eeeics replied to the observations of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. Last year he had
riliewn that be was anxious to fix the time of the
Payments by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
the Bank ; and be bad wished to do it without
reierence to any atrangements agreed to between
the Bank and the Right Honourable Gentleman.
----Being told, however, that a payment of
1,200,0001. was effected, he declined any fur-
Iher. , interference in the subject. Rumours,
however, were afloat, as to a method of paying
the Bank, not at all creditable to the Govern-
*neut. It was stated that a sum of money due
tram abroad, ,and secured in the French Funds,
Was to be applied to .the payment of the
This might be a mistake, but it would
be better for the Chancellor of the Excite-
tiller to explain the whole circumstances. .There
Was another point on which he differed from the
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had
liito(ioned as a proof of the prosperity of the re-
%elitte, that not above 152,0001, of the new taxes

had been received, which were included in former
returns. Now, what deductiOn could he had from
this, but that the country, already severely depress-
ed, had still to undergo the pressure of three mil-
lions of new taxes, with the abatementofls2,oool.
He looked on that merely as something which
threatened more distress. It was the misfortune of
the Right Hon. Gent. always to state too little or
too much. Being applied to for explanation, the
Right Hon. Gentleman had declined it, for fear of
encouraging stock-jobbing. Nothing could so
effectually encourage it as the latter part of the
speech of time Right Hon. Gentleman. As to his
argument of people being deterred from investing
their money in French Funds, because in case of
their decease their property 'coullt only be divided.
according to the law of France, it would be found
to have no effect. •

Mr. LUSHINOTON contended, that there was
n increase in the consumption Of tea, and that
the last qqaeter's revenue was better than the cor-
responding quarter of the preceding year. With
respect to the new taxes, it the Hon. Gentleman
would only take the .trouble to read the Acts, he
,eould see that those taxes could not have been
raised within the time he expected. They were to
be raised on articles to the traders in which long
credits were generally given. From the Malt
Duties, for instance, 1,500,000/, was expected
to be raised, but it could not be got in by the Act
before the 15th of January next. The arguments
founded by the Hon. Gentleman on such imagi-
nary defalcations, were therefore manifestly
lacious.- There were other items to which the
same explanations might be given.
Eeetco explained.,
Mr. GRENYCLL I hollgikt it unwise, unnecessary,
anti .inexpedient, to interfere between Govern-
ment and the Bank. Parliament had appointed
the 5-11 of April for the close of that transaction,
and there were no grounds for taking. it out of
the usual course. He was well satisfied to hear
that 1,200,0001. had been paid, and ready to
leave tie rest to Government, as originally in-
tended.

illr fitcAano agreed that the House would act
unwisely were it to interfere between Government
and the Batik ; but it was a very different thing
,to interfere and to ask for information, which was
all that this motion did. As for the promotion
of stock•jobbing, of which the Rigt►t Hon.
Gentleman seemed afraid, hat was done best by
secrecy, end not by an (men exposition of the
real state of the revenue—it flourished on the
acquisition of intelligence by a Few, and not on
information being equally g.yen to all. The Right
Honourable Gemleman had argued that the rate of
the exchanges was a perfect proof of there having
been no important transfer .of property to foreign
countries but he begged to say that this was by
no means so certain an evidence as was assumed.
Capital might go out of a country without affect-
ing the exchange, which was only the case when
it went out in the shspe of hills. But large con-
signments of trirrebaptfise might be trade and sold
abroad, and the produce invested in foreign lalld
or securities A regular account of exports and
imports would therefore be necessary to complete
the proof of the exchanges ; but such au account
Was not to be hoped for, as since the Uniorr with
Ireland, the statements made up in that country
and in this severally concurred, each in ascribing
the Balance in favour of the country where it was
framed. He would vote for the motion.

Mr. KIN NAIRD ascribed the rumours circulated
concerning the revenue to the ignorance in which
the public was kept. The reports about the pay-
ment of the five millions to the Bank had had the
effect of keeping down the Funds, which he sup-
posed the Right Hon. Gentleman would be glad
to see higher. Anti stock-jobbing bad never such
food as when speizulators could take advantage of
the universal want of information to propagate
the stories which answered their purposes.
Mr. MABERLY replied.—He stated that it was
notorious to all who were conversant with the
public sales of tea, that there would be a deficiency
of one million upon that article alone. A defi-
ciency was also to be expected on other articles,
since it was well known that the malt disiillers
did nor begin to work as soon as usual, and that
100;000 bartels of beer less were brewed up to
thi, time than to the sante period of last year.—
Were not these manifest proofs of a diminution of
consumption ? He did not blame his Majesty's
Ministers for all this. They could not put money
into the pockets cl the people in order to enable
them to pay for these articles, be only blamed
them for, not calculating rightly.
The motion was put and negatived.
Mr. MARE RLY then moved another Resolution,
" for an account of all Exchequer Bills received
in payment of duties from the Ist of July to the
21st of December."

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER again
objecting to accounts embracing parts of a quar-
ter, and urging that the sth of January would
cause these documents to be regulArly and offi-
cially produced, moved, as an amendment, to sub-
stitute the 10th of October for the 21st of De-.
cember.

A desultory conversation ensued, in which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Gi.eenfell, Mr.
Tierney, Mr...Maherly, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Huskis-
son, and Mr. W. Cale►aft took part ; and the Op-
position alleging that Ministers might conveniently
furnish documents, which was resisted merely
from a disposition not to conciliate, pushed the
question to a division—

Ayes ...
Noes ...

30

•

Majority

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER'S amend-
ment was then agreed to, with which the origind
motion wasputand carried.

Some difficulty had arisen on a proposal to
meet the wishes of the Mover by inserting the
sth of January, but on our re-entering the Gal-
lery we found the Speaker explaining the diffi-
culty, in point of usage, of complying with this
suggestion. If the account to the 10th of Octo-
ber was ordered, the order went forth to the
proper Office, and the thing was done ; but if the
sth January, a period to come, were agreed upon,
it must be by a Resolution, and there was no
precedent for this practice.
Mr. MASERLY, after what bad passed said, he
would not propose the motion we had intended,

relative to public money, appropriated or unap•
propriated.
BRITISH PROPERTY IN THE FRENCH FUNDS.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he would, to-mi)r.
row, move for an account of all British property
in the French Funds, which has been placed by
the French at the disposal of the British Cri,vern-
ment, but which was not applicable by the•latter
to the pAymeot of Brills,' claimants.

NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the
Day for the third reading of the Newspaper Stamp
Ditties Bill.

Air. BE AL said, he had this day communi-
cated with some highly respectable Booksellers,
who Spoke of the recognizances demanded under
this Bill. From their own condi.ion in life, the
amount was of no conscrptence.to them ; hut they
assured hitu that the effect would be to rnin a
large class of Printers in the Country, whose
means and capital were limited to.a small amount..
lie entreated the Noble Lord, for the last time,
to remedy this defect, and save an industrious and
useful body of men from destruction.

Mr. G. LAMB felt that no apology for rising
immediately after-his Hon. Friend was necessary,
as it was the practice of the other side of the
House, upon the discussion on all these measures,
to suffer every argument and appeal to be address-
ed to them without giving any answer. As to the
Bill before the House, he perfectly agreed with
,the Member for Corfu Castle (Mr. Banks), that
if it passed, together with the other measures
which so largely:infringed the convitotion, Black-
s!one, and all the other constitutional writers
of his time, would soon grow obsolete. Of
all the descriptions of literary speculators, the
poetaster was the only one who should stand
a chance of acquiring wealth ; but, he asked
what would become of young men possessing
great literary merit who might wish to set up
papers of their own, and who might not be able to
find friends to become sureties far them ? To a
young man of this description, IA friend might
say—" I nave the highest opinion of your honour,
your talents, your integrity, and your discretion ;
but you are einh.lted in a speculation, in which
tie greatest care and the utmost that human vigi-
lance can do, will not protect you against time
chance of being convicted for something that you
shall write; and therefore I cannot insure against
such a contingency." Had such a law as this ex-
isted in former times, many inert who had corn.-
aKneed their career by writing for periodical pub-
lications, and who afterwards rose to honour and
emoluments, would.' have been crushed in their
first entrance upon the world, It would be recol-
lected, that some years ago, on the occasion of a
petition being presented to that House on the
ground of refusal to admit persons to be called
to the bar, because they had been writers for the
public press, many instances were stated of dis-
tinguished characters who had, in the early parts
of their lives, been writers for newspapers ; and
one of them was at that time a distinguished
Member of the House, who now holds an im-
portant situation in the judicial department of the
country. He would also put the case of such is
man as the late Air. Burke ; if such restraints as
were contained in this Bill weme laid upon him at
his first entrance into public life, would the world
have possessed that store of knowledge and of ge-
nius with which he had since enriched it ?—ln
short, this Bill.would be a check upon every kind
of talent. He felt more than usual interest on this
question; the House was only now speculating on
the opinions of men who supposed that the press did
all the mischief complained of; bat he begged
the House to pause before they stigmatise(' meo
w' sirtue and talents—before they stigmatised all
those who were endeavouring to extend the be-
nefits of education among the lower orders, and
before they stigmatised all those who were drill-
ing and training the people in the practice of mo-
rality and religion. If the seditious and blasphe-
mous press was to be put down, was it necessary
that the respectable people connected with the
press were to he subject to penalties and hard-
ships, and some persons to total ruin ? Before he
sat down, he should give notice, that after time
Bill was read .a third time, he should move a
clause to make it only temporary.
..Mr. Nice said, he had no objection to that
part of the Bill which went to impose a stamp
duty on certain publications ; but he had such
strong objections to the other parts, that he was
convinced they tended directly to destroy the
liberty of the Press, and on that account he should
oppose the Bill. A similar principle of giving
extraordinary and tensible powers to the Govern-
ment prevailed throughout all the other Bills that
were introduced into Parliament this Session.
Already the right of petition had been greatly li-
mited, and now the people were to be deprived of
their right of freely expressing their opinions.
Mr. JOHN SMITH contended, that no necessity
had been shewn by any Member on the other side
of the House for this measure. It the Law Offi-
cers of,the CrOwn had shown sufficient vigilance
in putting the existing laws in force against the
propagators of sedition and blasphemy, there
would have been no pretence whatever for such a
measure as this. As to time provisions iu time pre-
sent Bill, he saw no necessity for them, and-he
believed that they would have time effect of bring-
ing to ruin a number of individuals, who were
perfectly innocent and meritorious men, and be
could not, as an honest man, consent to such a
Bill, unless a case were made out to prove that
it was essential to the safety of the State.
Mr. Coo as spoke in favour of the Bill. He
thonght that so great anti general an evil as time
present licentiousness of the press required wise
met by a great and general effort of the law.

Mr. CALCRAFT coinplained, in terms as—strong
as the last speaker, of the licentiousness of the
press ; but he conceived the coetion to be, whe-
ther the law in its present state was not stAcient
to restrain that licentiousness ? Before such ex-
tensive and important alterations were to he as-
sented to by the House, he thought that it should
be clearly shown that the law, as it had stood for
the last 120 years, was insufficient for that pur-
pose. In 1818, no prosecutions whatever had
been instituted against blasphemers and libellers ;
but in 1819 several had ; and the very first of
these, that of Mr. Carlile, had obtained a trim-
pliant verdict. Under these circumstances, he
thought little credit was to be given to the asses-

tions of Gentlemen on the other side of the
House respecting the inefficiency ,of the otistiog

• The Bill was. then read a third time, wri(bout a
division. -

Mr. BERSAL moved a Clause tendiUg to render
the duration of the. Bill temporary.
• Lord CASTLEREAGH assured the Hon. Member,
who spoke last hut one, that if this Bill could be
considered as destructive.. to the fr, edom of the
press, he would admit that the Hon. Member had
laid a sufficient ground for limiting its duration;
but it was -his opinion, that it only went to pro-
, teet, and not to invade the freedom of the press,
and .therefore be should resist the clause. His
• idea of a free presS was, that any imlividnal
-should be at liberty to express his opinions, sub-
ject to future responsibility; but no One would
say that persons to whom no responsibility could
attach ought to have a reght to send forth sedi-
. .tiotts and blasphemous libels. The first principle
in this Bill was, to bring all publications within
the intention of the law, which said that they
must be subject to a certain stamp duty ; and
the second principle was, to attach a sufficient
degree of responsibility to publishers. In both
these the law was grossly evaded, and the object
of the Bill was to prevent such evasions from taking
place.- The system which the Government' went
upon' was altogether a system of preveetion, and
not of punishment ; and this was evident, from
-the circumstance of the larger press of the coun-
try being exempted from restriction. Tice object
of the seditious pert of the press was to oserturn
the Government of the country, and it was evi-
dent, from the declarations contained in the pub-
lications _coining under that description, that such
was the object of the writers. The first of the
Resolutions now proposed was to lay a stamp-
duty on certain publications, which was only
an act of justice to those who had- long con-
tributed to the revenue ; and he • hOped no
Gentleman would contend that this regal ition
ought to be temporary. With regard to tht
securities, this Bill would not apply ro author-
ship ; it applied only to printers and publishers It
would in Ito degree apply to the authors of works,
unless the works were of such a description that
printers would not take on themselves the respon-
sibility or publishing them. But it an author of
a blasphemous or treasonable work wanted_ to
sent; it into the witrid, he might find.an• indigent
printer in a garret who would not hesitate to print
and to publish it, and afterwards might run away
from justice; and, therefore, he asked, would it
not be fit that the authors should be responsible,
or at least, that there should be a sufficient de-
gree of responsibility to operate -as a preventive
against such a %cork appearing ? With the ca-
pital and industry that now abounded in the
country, there would be no want- of authors
or publishers ; and the business of printing and
publishiug would continue in the hands of re-
spectable persons. It would drive indigent men
out of the trade ; and then there- would he no
desperate libellers, employing individual printers
to act as their ins•rumetits in spreading their poi-
son over the country. The law already recog-
nised the principle of making men give security,
for their svolkS ; and there was no regulation of
the Bill which touched the freedom of the press—
it was only following up the principle already
adopted with stamped papers, of making the
.printer enter his name and give security.—
He wished to see the property of the country
come Girth for the purpose -of conducting the
press, and he answerable for the consequences
of what might be sent forth to the public. No
man, except one who was criminal and indigent,
could object to enter into the necessary securities.
The Noble Lord continued to say, that the prin-
ciple of securities tvelS long adopted in mercantile
transactions, aOA that still it was no restraint on
the application of capital WhateveT - ioconve-
rdence it might be to individuals, the public inte-
rest should be more attended to. He then alluded
to the system of punishment, and contended, that
as the degree of crime increased, so should the pti-
nisinnent be apportioned to it. The punishment-of
banishment was not qui-e so great a novelty in
the law, as had been said by Gentlemen at the other
side. But,•admitting it was,- the Noble Lord con-
tinued, that it was not an argument strong enough
to make against the-adoption of it, in imitation of
other countries. The restrictions of this Bill
would not aff,ct authors, who were left entirely
out-of the questiOn; it would only affect the book-
sellers, and there was a principle long recognized
in the law, that every man was responsible for
what lie published. He could not suppose a case
so monstrous, as that put by art Hon. Member at
the other side, that possibly, by some neglect on
the part of his servants, a bookseller might be con-
victed a second time of a libel, and so be subject-
ed to the punishment of transportation. That
would suppose, what this Bill expressly provides,
that there was no discretion left with the Judges.
On the whole, as he did nut think this Bill would
make against the Liberty of the Press, he could
not give the Clause his support.—(Hear, hear !)
Sir JAMES AI-
,CKINTOSH said, that in rising he
did not Mean to attempt to follow the 'exalar le of
the Noble Lord, who had so largely disen`ssed not
only the question befere the 1-louse, but had at ray-
ed to every topie within the range of his ienagina-
tioo as connected with it. Had he confined
self more narrowly to the ques:ion, he ft It that
he Would have been better able to meet him on a
subject which demanded so seriously the delibera-
tion of himself and of the House. He was aware
the'tiMe was past in which any thing he could say
would he of service ; but inability alone had
prevented him from doing this before. It there
had been many prosecutions amid punishments
under the existing IaWS, and the offences they
were intended to repress were still persevered in,
that would be a reason for -assuming the
quacy of the existing laws. But this was not tits
case, and if libel were punishable with dear h,
it would be of no avail -if the punishment were
not inflicted. Assuming, for the sake -of ar-
gument, that Juries were not disposed .to con-
vict, was it to be assumed that adding to the
severity of the punishment would make them more
disposed to return a verdict•of guilty against
a defendant? He maintained that- it was not to
be expected ; nor was it to be supposed, that,
unde'r severer laws, it Would be easier to find proof
and bring witnesses against an offender. That he

-.vas auxi.)ni).-to At:t ialaspleemous publica-
tions he should prove when the Blasphemous Li-
Bill fretort, the tllouse, by moving to add
to the pteamble a more definite description of the
critne or blasphemy, 'which, he hoped, would at
once Make the Bill more elrectual, while it spared
the press. of England at the moment of its greatest
purity—when• its services were most important,
anti when it was distiogoished by the most signal
disolq Of talents, from-the undeset yeti infamy of
being confonnded with bbispbetners, traitors, and
others, who were equal to the perpetration
..of the most :atrocious et in:es. it had been
said that the present nrea.‘ures were .founded
those tormerly broaght forward by Whigs. He
believed they mi•tlit be traced to a quarter, where
more cougenial feelings were. to he found—to a
Tory. who, in tine account which lie had given of
his Residence in London." had stated himself
to have suggested a Stamp Ditty It was in 1712,
.pit the day of the expulsion of Sir Robert, lVal-
pnle from the Ili)-ise-of Conttnon;;, that H mes•ae,e
Brett brought down. On the sobject of Bias-
ritcntons Libels. The choice made of the person
by Whom this was litt);:glit down', Was an extra-
»tdivary it anre of felicitous selec ion. It was
hrought down by a persist) :listing:fished by weal,
renins, by great talents, and'hy many guru! va•
lithos, who bad not, he believed, been set y remui k-
-able for his piety—it was brought down. by :Nix.
-Secretary St. John —(Laughter.)--,They were-
f•olher told by Swift, that the consequeoccs of
,the adopti.in of a measure similar to that which
W!)54 now proposed, were directly opposite to
those-intended to be pioduced. 'the factions and
the evil-disposed were ei.ableal to publish what
they Were disposed to send into the world", while
honest men were deprived of the 'opportunity of
.ens»munickoing their opinions. Ile showed, that to
testrict the prnoer, was itt rfleet to restrain the an-
thor, The ('oition from that most respectable
holy -of men, the-Booksellers, it) f tvolir of the
I'ress, and of humble but rising torn connected with
it ought to be attended to, and at all events he
th,:ught the Amendment moved by his Hon Friend
to make the measure temporary instead of perma-
nent might he acceded to without at all giving up
the principle of the Bill. Whether considered as

en a,tetupt to impiove the Constitution, or as a
measure railed tot by temporary d angers, in ei-
ther case the House, out of respect for that liber-
ty of the press which had made this country re-
nownedi amont!"ifivions—whicb had so long been
the boast of Englishmen and the admiration of
the world.---and which-other coun.ries were now
endeavouring to copy from us—in any case, the
I-louse ought to show its regard for that which
we had. so long valued and so lung enjoyed, by
*tot at once determining that a measure like that
before tbfro should become a permanent law.—
referred to the debates is) 1735,in which those
Gehtteineo, Mr. Fox, and Sir W. Grant, took

parr, awl showed that when Sir W. Grant bad
•,pened the course then thought necessa,y to be
Taken, be distinctly decl'ared' that the restriction
to be proposed were not brought forward as kn.
provrnrents (if the Constitution, but were die.-
tatted by the dire necessity of the case. When-
' this was remembered,. was it too much for him
to beseech the House to pause before they made
the law now called for a permanent measute
took a review, of . the circumstandes folder
wlt'cli the Bill of Rights was framt.d—showed
that the Toleration Act—the Magna Charta of
Religious Liberty—the Act. for Triennial Parlia-
ments, and many of our most valued safeguards,
grew out of that immortal-Bill, and one of the
most important benefits to be deduced from it,
was the liberty enjoyed by. the Press of England
throi,gh the Licensing Act of Charles the Second
having been-suffered to expire in the time of
Xing William. The liberty so established he
hoped the' country would not he permanently de-
prived of by the measures now before the House.
Mr. CANNING congratul (ted the House in hay-
ing at length heard the icing expected and elo-
quent speech of his Right Hon. Friend upon the
measures proposed by Ministers. lie thought,
ho• Never, that the who's.' scope of his reasoning
applied to any restriction that n*ght be proposed
,upon the liberty of the press.. He agreed with
him that great respect was due to the press, and
that it- was mltter of extreme regret to he obliged
to place restriction upon it ; but still it might, be
apprehended, be sometimes necessary to have re-
course to severe measures. It was .one great
beauty of tie system of English law, that it left
much to sound srnse and good opportuni.y, and
it Was only when the fotmer was laid a,itle, and
the latter nal, to be hoped for, that the Legislature
stepped in, as it were, between the living and the
dead, and stayed the plague by their intelference.,
But his 11,n. and Learned Friend had forgotten

that precisely the same meast:Pes were introduced,
not by that respectable body, the IVhigs, whom he
bad linen accused by the Honourable and Learned
6entlentan of traducing, but for whom individ
ally, he assured ,him, he felt t»ucb respect, by
vvhicti the ptiner was made responsible, and'

presses were registered,, and yr.t those measures
had not -Traduced the consequences that had been
then predicted, though` the predictions were not
unlike those of. his •Rizht Hon.- and Learned
:Friend, and he had not the least' doubt that
the effect in the case before the House would
rove similar. The' press would get rid of that
extraneous matter by which it had been polluted,
land other men would be prevented front pursuing
suclecrimes by the certainty of their punishment.
If there were ooe mode more likely to effect its
objects, the deterring of others froth the commis-
stun of a similar offence, and the exhibiting agsa•
lutat y example of the consequences of such offence,
he believed it would, be found to consist in the of-
fender being called on to abjure that realm, whose
peace, order, and security, he had resolved to des-
troy,in the pursuit of the basest and most clomp thy
objects. H t'dere could be a punishment said to be
suited to the persons and character a. Iso Qfstich offer,-
det s (for he could never confound this higher order
of cOme,consisting in a misapplication oldie powers
of whiff and resources olliterature, with the vulgar
larcency of theft or other dishonesty), he could
not bat assert that banishment was the fittest of all
. punishments, because it entailed no disgrace on the
ogeniter. %Vas it already forgotten how much
Worse off the Press was only four years ago, when
. one at the punishments of libel consisted in the..
being exposed to the public gaze in the pilloty If

•
lien banishment had been prepared as a substitute
for the pillory, the change • (void& have. been
accepted with satisfaction. %Viten ibis circutn-
stance.was recollected, be wroth] contend that the
press, instead of being placed in a deeraded situa-
tion, hod. actually been elevated, even admitting.
the Bill to have passed into a law. No man could
be more averse titan himself to conlonudiog the
respectable and enlightened writers of the day
with thostoindlividluals, whose principled and pro-
ductions would be a disgrace to any cause ; but in
selecting a victim it was almost impossible not to
scare the herd amongst whom -he sheltered, The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had deeply excited
his regret, when he argued t.lrat enough had been
done already, and for God's sake - ler not the
Remise drive the people to despair. Here was
the root of the eittl of the times. The term
!.people no longer embraced, as it used to em-
brace,. the nation cidlectively ;-.--(hear,.bear, !)
association of men of various cutlets and
degrees, built up and raised gradually from loan-
hat ions rude bat deep, adil displaying in its supe.-
s!Ttictlire, symmetry, order, and .harmony. Bit
the pdnple as modelled by the theorists now a-
days, was a perectly d fferent assemblage ot -ideas
l'trst it was deprived of its Sovereign and its Go•
vernment, next of its Aristocracy, then of. its Na-
hility, its Clergy, its Lawyers, its landed proprie-
tot its mercantile aud mAindacturing proprielms,
and, as ii to rob society of every thing
shoohl give it grace or ornameot,. they excluded
the learned of all professions. lie could nes er con-
sent to recognise in this pitiful remnant .of society
what had hitherto beer: deuotnin ,tedl the people
of this country, any more than he would consent
to acknowledge that he saw in the'bild of
Illio-
genes. the man of Plato —(l.lear, hear I)—The
obvious error of this fallacy was, that the ha-
raogoes or appeals which were daily Made. upon
popular tolxims, and which would Kaye tr,en
just. as applied to the popnlation of the country,
were actual rebellion as applied to this separate
association thus pa mulled out of ,the community.
The argument of the Learned Gentleman had• un-
'fortunately partaken of this chara.ter, and he 134(1
seemed to marshal the people 'against their
Go-
sernors, as if .they were two .parties destitute of
all congeniality of feeling,- the latter demanding
concession On concession, and the people implot-
:iog them to spare the remainder. He tros•ed it
was reserved for the present Session to have the
glory of putting down, with the jostest sentiment
of indignation, the system of those tremendous
metaphysicians of the present day, a-n! for ever
extinguish that torch of sedition, which; whether
flamiog with antlaciout violence in the face of
all authority, or treacherously's-mouldering its files
in order to break not with more aggravated fusy,
had so !Ong desolated this island from one extre-
mity to the other, by cutting off the hope of the
poor, e.nd rcodering abortive every of ort made
by tlse rich for their relief.—(Continued cheers for
some-time.)
Mr. DENMAN stated, that the appeal which he had made
on a former night, on behalf of the people, was made in be-
half
of the majority of that 'society, uniting the various gra-
dations
in the state enumerated by the Right Hon. Gentle-