The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-23 00:00:00

GRIEVANCES IN INDIA

Sir. J. MACKINTOSH gave notice, that on the 6th of
June Le would present a petition from the merchants,
traders, and othsrs in Calcutta, complaining of certain
grievances in consequence of objectionable measures of the,
Government in India.

silnacteelylBrele2e.ivedHe from
m
woe beh be
to rnhaeavielt -a
e ...
Mr. HUME said, that 89 he understood no objection
mwoovueld be ,
tended to India the benefit of the British Insolvent
Debtors' Act. No relief of this nature had been afforded
heshomuladde briteofly the
state Rehtlisnm objectfor
hilast December, which loudly proclaimed the ex.
In the gaol of
India, may debtors were lying in the gaols of that country
so long as eight, nine, and twelve Years. Ey the last
packet, he had received the address of the Grand Jury at
toetlpetedrsonstocosntafitne,edtifioartdebl;t lan„lonudoiats
tent of this evil. Calcutta 120 debtors
were at this moment incarcerated, many of them Irma
nine to twelve years, and at the mercy of a single creditor.
Calcutta,
It was the same at Bombay and in the other Presidencies.
His motion was, for a Return of the number of debtors sa
confined in these Presidencies, the amount of their debts
respectively, and Whether the detention was at the suit of
the Government, or a single creditor.
Mr. FORBES Iv. h lis e, for the names of the detaining
.1-editors.
delay Mr. HUMthought E that would lead to unnecessary
I

these I.d
returns ASIaLsi.:Y far as would
they
y given notice of one, the object of which was to
alt.eal(ri• WYNN saw no necessity for this motion, as he had_
extend the principle of the Insolvent Debtors' Act to
India.—.(llear.)
L
hadboebejnectrt
atnosmtliztetepdrofid.oumctlionndia.
of
Mr. FERGUSSON hoped, under these assurances his
Hon. Friend would withdraw his motion, as it could lead to
no practical result.

Mr. FORBES hoped the motion would not be with-
drawui as he wai desirous the noun And the country should

see the extent of the grievances to which these poor
debtors were exposed in India. Five years ago he had
bimitelfseen in Bombay gaol 120 debtors, in the most
pitiable state of suffering. Would it be believed that many
of these were poor natives who had been for years (some of
them 12 years he believed) confined for debts not exceeding.
12t. steeling each?—(Hear, hear.)—lf the local authori-
ties could relieve and would not they ought to be made to
interfere in so crying a grievance. With respect to the
RankrUpt Laws, he..knew that many persons who had ex,
• perienee of judicial matters in India, particularly his Hon.
-and Learned Friend opposite, thought its principle could be
well appliedinthat country.
Sir .L MACKINTOSH having been so directly appealed
to, must say, that though be had not seen the same ex-
tent of suffering in the gaol :at Bombay which his Hon.
Friend had seen, vet he saw enough to convince him that
much 'suffering prevailed, there, and ought to be removed.
The motion Wa,4 then agreed to.
Mr. H 11742., referring to an Act of the 6th Geo. 111.
37, iaid that there was a clause in that Act introduced
b a :Right Honourable Gentleman, helotv him (Mr. C.
Wynn) .very much against his (Mr. Hume's) inclination
.--the clause which prevented any but Christians to be
Jurors in cases where Christians were the parties
nied--inasmnch as it contained an insinuation against some
the moat respectable persons in the Presidencies, of which
they expressed themselves in terms of great displeasure.
Thi-4 was the more felt Bombay, where the re-
mains of the Portuguese Christians were to be found,
and who, in, comparison with. their 'Endes) neighbours,
were not in a situation to deserve the privileges which this
clause secured to them. While on. this subject, he would
suggest, as a means of conciliating the minds of the na-
tives, that they should be eligible to serve as Jurors in civil
causes. The want of such a privilege was now particu-
larly felt, for he was sorry to find that the Chief Justice of
the Supreme Court of Calcutta had not acted so as to
meet the wishes of the natives, but that he and they were
at variance, and consequently a spirit of distrust in the
saministration...of justice was too prevalent there. Ile
concluded by moving for a Copy of the Regulations that
had been adopted by the Supreme Courts of the several
Presidencies of India as to Natives sitting on • Juries, by
virtue of the 7th of Geo. LIL c. 37.
The motion having been put,
.Lord ASHLEY said that the regulations of the Supreme
Cour' of Calcutta had arrived in this country; that they
were now before ,his Majesty in Council, and would be
speedily laid on the• table of the House.
Mr. WYNN had introduced the clause alluded to on the
fullest belief that it was necessary.
Mr. FEROUSSON from long experience was satisfied
that the exclusion of the natives by the present, clause was
unjust.

The motion was agreed to,
Mr. HUME said that the next motion be had to bring
before the House related to the expenses of law proceedings
in India. By the 37th Geo. 111. the Judges of the Indian
lilottrts were authorized to .give reasonable salaries to the
clerks and other officers.. But in a. little time the amount
of the fees began to be complained of, and at last they be-
came the subject of a remonstrance. by the Grand Jury.
The reason why he introdneed the subject on the present
occasion was, because the Lord Chief Justice declined taking
any steps with regard to it. It appeared that the salaries
of the officers, by means of fees, exceeded the whole amount
of the salaries of the Judgee.. The Hon. Member con-
•:luded by moving for a Copy of a Table of Fees sanctioned
by the Courts of Bombay, Fort William, Fort St. George,
and Prince of Wales's Island, distinguishing the fees from
the salaries.
Lord ASHLEY said that the Tables bad not yet arrived,
Government being in posiression only of the variations in
the amount.

Mr. FERGUSSON didnot mean to oppose the motion;
hut, at the same time, be must say, that in the course of
twenty-seven years the fees, so far from increasirg, had
rather diminished. The officers derived considerably:from
the increase of business. This, however, had nothing to
do with the question. - If his Hon. Friend would OA ly
take the trouble to send doe of his 'Secretaries to his (Mr.
Fergusson's) honse he would give bini at once the Table of
the Fees now paid in the places mcutioned.

Mr. HUME explained. •
Mr. TRANT supported the motion.
CHURCH BRIEFS.

Mr. PEEL had, on a former night, given. notice of his
intention tobring in two Bills on subordinate subjects relat-
ing to the internal economy of the country. The first
measure was for the total abolition of Church Briefs in
consequence of calamities by fire ; for he considered that
the establishment of Insurance Offices rendered well a
mode of raising money totally- unnecessary; and more-
over, it appeared to him extremely improper to intro-
duce secular matter in 'the middle of Divine Service.
It was also to be observed that there was, a great dis •
proportion between the hiss sustained and the sum ulti-
mately received by the party. after the expense- of caner-
:Lion was paid. Ifs had in his possession an account of the
total number of Briefi issued since the I sth of .May,
1619, in conseguen&e of calamities by tire; and one or
two instances would show- how small the sum • was
which was paid to the individual by
,whom the loss wag
.7ustained.—The first instance he should advert to was a
brief issued in 1819, when the loss sustained was 5621..
and the sum raised was 549/. The expenses, of the let-
ters patent amounted to 9'71., and the charge of collection,'
;neluding salaries, Itc., was SSW., leaving only 124/. out
of the 549/. to the party. In every view he thought such
system highly objectionable, and the sooner it was done
away the better. Then, as to the mode of eolleeting•money
toy Briefs for the repairs of churches and chapels, though
it was not liable to the seine objection, he still looked upon
it as a very precarious source of supply, the sum collected
varying generally from 4401. to 3391., out of which all the
expenses were to be paid. It was therefore his intention
to move for the repeal of the Act of Anne, with a view to
the total abolition of the system. (Hear, hear.) At the
same time he thought that the collection of money in
churches was an excellent mode of supply; and in order to
substitute it for the other, he should propose letters patent
being granted by his Majesty, that the existing Society
for Building and Repairing Churches by voluntary con-
tributions should be incorporated. That Society had al-
ready done much good, and were likely to do more, With
the 110,000/. which they had distributed, from the con-
tributions made to them, they induced parties locally irate..
rested in different parts of the country, to contribute nO
less than 400,0001. in aid of the general, fund, and the
total amount at the present moment was 500,000/. The
object of the Society was to provide accommodation fox the.
public. With the' 110,000/. thus expended, free sittings
wet* provided'far 154,000 persons. He should alio pro-
pose to give to the Society a permanent title to receive
quest; and legacies. He should likewise introduce a clause
for making the Prelates of the several dioceses Vice-Presi-
dent:l, together with twenty_five laymen ; and that all the
Agtounts should be examined at stated periods. The whole •
charge on the present amount of distribution, though die
sum was so large, did not exceed 440/. asyear, including
salaries and rent. This showed the excellence of the sysi
lemon which the Society acted. The. Right Hon. Gen-
tleman then allover' for leave to bring in a Bill for the a
better mode of
for enlarging ri,Nerehes
abo-
lition of Church Briefs, and for providing
collecting voluntary contributions
and Chapels.
Sir .1. NEWPORT wished, to eat the principle of the
Billextended to Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCI-M.Qusa.
said a
few words, which were inaudible in the gallery,, • •
.‘
Dr. LUSHINGTON supported the motion,
that, under the present system of collecting
amount.
briefs, the expenses greatly exuded the pet
(Mr. Peel said they were three ti tee
al d, public and the
flue. amount. ) The
whole of the system ought to be
were greatly indebted to the Right lion, it;otiern. for
Proposing to have the existing Society ineorporetege
Mr. RIOORE should not perform his duty if he remaci4
silent on the question beforetlw House. Imputations had
been thrown out against Magistrates ; but lie would take-
upon him to say that the Magistracy of nublin were quite
enobnoxious, and could not be included in tiae charges,
brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. Alderman WOOD was gratified by the motion .of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, because he wished to see
Church Briefs of every description put an end to. in the
City there were briefs of a peculiar description, which he
could not more properly denominate than by calling them
walking briefs. 'the collections at the churches were merely
totoinsl. There was seldom more than sixpence, and at the
,most Lot more than a shilling, put in the plate on occasions
of this kind ; but the walking briefs—the beadles with gold-
laced hatsend coats--(laughter)--endeavoured to make up
the decency... They were quite an annoyance—walking
about from door en door ; and their importunity was such,
that neither man, nor woman either, could refuse. He
therefore felt indebted to 4.e. Right Hon. Secretary for in-
troducing a measure to get rigl of the nuisance.
Mr. PEEL explained. In introducing the Bill, his
Object certainly was to confine it to England ; and even if
he had wished to eetendit to Ireland, the weight of business
on his handl was such, that it was quite out of his power
to do it. •That;iiii thought,' would Mere properly fall to
the office of the Secretary for Ireland.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT hoped that the Bill would ex-

tend to Ireland. Leave to bring in the Bill was then
granted.

RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS.
Mr. Secretary PEEL then proceeded to state the prin-
ciple of the Bill for the better recovery of Small. Debts in
England. At present those persons to whom debts of a
certain amount were due by persons refusing to pay, fre-
quently thought it much better to abandon the debt alto-
gether than go through the expensive process which became
necessary for its recovery. The proceedings in the County
Courts were so long and expensive that few persons at-
tempted the recovery of a debt unless actuated by pique
against the parties ;- the Conti alw4as absorbing the whole
amount of the debt for :laic% the 'creditor sues. His at-
tention hail been frequently called to the subject ;, but great
difficulty occurred in devising a 'remedy: A.Voble Lord
(Lord Althorp), • the Meniger.for: Northamptonshire, bad
entered. into an extensive inquiry by the means of a Com-
mittee, and had introduced two or three Bills upon the
subject. Those Bills had not been carried through the
House, and it was at the earnest desire of that Noble Lord
he now undertook the task of introducing the Bill. The
first Bill of the Noble Lord appointed, as Judges of the
Courts, a number of persons called Assessors, at
.a salary
of six or eight hundred a-year"; the patronage of the ap-
pointment of these Assessors to he placed in the hands of
the Lord Lieutenants of counties: Power was at the same
time given to unite small counties with districts under.
one Assessor, and to levy . the salary of the Assessor
upon that district, or: from fees to be paid in the Court
over which he presided. Objections were taken, : very
naturally, to the placing the patronage of the appointment
•of these Assessors in Lord -Lieutenants, and the appoint-
ment was afterwards given to the Crown, and of course
the regulation of the salary also rested with the eroven.
It was, afteiwarde proposed, that 'the Cominiasioners for
the Relief of Insolvent Debtors should make circuits at
stated periods, to preside ,in Courts for the 'Recovery of
Small Debts, their salaries to be increased on' account of
the increase of duty, but all-these plans were afterwards
abandoned, and it, now became his duty to explain the
measure which
.he. proposed for the • accomplishment of
the same object. It was entirely different from any which
he had 'stated. It retained the ancient' institution of the
COunty. Courts, and gave no-power of appointment to the
Crown or the Lord Lieutenants. It enlarged, however,
the amount to be recovered in the County COurtitTroin forty
shillings to.ten pounds; .and, by details, admirably adapted
for the purposes in view, placed County Courts in 'Condi-'
thin to allow justice to •be done 'to the debtor as wellas to the creditor. The Bill . made no alteratinn in the
proceedings of the County Courts, which are all of a ,very
simple nature. It, gives the plaints as well as the answers,.
and establisbes the amount of the fees to be taken in the
cause. It enables Magistrates to divide large counties into
districts—appoints the times' when 'Courts'are 'periodi-
cally to be held—and compete the Sheriff of the County, tci•
givedue notice of the time when they are-so to be held...a.
The trial is in all cases. to be by Jury. The' .Turies to 'be
chosen from the same class of men its those called Ilion to
serve 'upon Juries in eases at Nisi Prior, no appeal
lying-to the decision lave by a motion to the same Court for
-a new trial; and the remedy in all cases to be,' not against
the person but the goods of the debtor ; that remedy being
not only against the goods_ of the debtor in the eounty or
district where the cause is tried, but also against his goods
in any part of England.,-(Hear.)—Noremedy was, how-
ever, lie repeated, to be had, in any case, against the
person. These Were the outlines of the Bill ; but he felt
.conAdent that its clauses would be found 'adequate to the
object they had in view; and to thembe would 'now refer
those Hon. 'Members who took an interest in the question.
He did not anticipate opposition tp any part of the Bill,
unless there might be corns objection made to the clause
fur giving compensation to persons interested in fees.—:
He felt bound, however, to say, that he could not' pro-.
pose the Bill to the House, nor engage to carry it thiOugh
its stages, unless compensation was granted to those
who posesseil 'vested interests in • their offices. He re-
gretted that offices of 4 nature 'opposed to improverrint3
in legislation should he ii;t existence, Provision had.
been made by Parliament .for their gradual dissolution ;
but he felt still that compensation was due to those who
possessed by. purchase any Patent'offlce affected is its in-
terests by the Bill. That compensation, however, could
only be extended, ofcourse, to the life of the possessor, and.
for his strictly legal I.:vs.-no compensation being in any
case allowed for loss of practice. . Repeating his determine-
t:on not to proceed with the Bill unless the CoMpensation
Clause was allowed to stand, the Right Hon. Gentleman
concladed by xnoving for leave to bring in a Bill for the
more effectual roomy of Small Debts in England and Wales,
and for extending the jorfediction of the County Chmirts
thereof.
MIME expressed his gratification to hear such a
declaration from the Right lion. Gentleman, ea that the
remedy for debts of ten pounds should be always against the
*goods of the debtor. If, however, that principal was good
in this case, it was good to any extent, and he hoped t 6
hear the Right Hon. Gentleman allow of its admission to
debts of a muds larger amount. The Solicitor-General
hint brought in a Bill altering the amount of arrest on
means process from ten pounds to twenty, but with very
little benefit ; and he now.strongly recommended the sub-
ject to the Rig,fit 'Hon. Gentleman's consideration. The
Hon. Measlier concluded by asking the-Right Hon. Gen-
tleman whether the subject of the arrest upon mesne
process was to be submitted to the Committee appointed to
inquire into the state of the Law ?
• Mr. Seeretary PEEL replied, that one dale Comtnii-
sions was appointed to inquire
.into the practice and Pro-
tvedings of the Superior Courts, of Common Law; and the
other to inquire into the state and practice of the LaWs re-
lating to real property. 'He did not think, therefore, that
the policy of arrest upon toesne process could be very pro-
perly referred to either of those Committees.
Mr. HARVEY thought, that sinless the principle of the
Right Hon. Gentleman was carried farther than he pr(i-
posed -1)y the present Bill, its provisions would do little
more than increase the expenses so properly Minded to in
his Opening addirese to the
:House. After expressing t hope
;that the Sub-sheriffs, woo were, as he understood the
Right Hon. Gentleman, to be the Judges of the Courts
would beheld properly responsible, the. Hon, Member sug-
gested the, propriety of allowing a marshalling of the ver-
dict, so as to allow of payments by instalments, and prevent
.the issuing of ruinous execution..
Mr. CHARLES WOOD.suggested the propriety of in-
troducing a clause to, regulate the application of the fees, as
he was convinced, from the nature of the Bill, that the in-
creased business of the Court would soon render those fees
rely large."
Mr: jaterroen WOOD expressed his acknowledgment
to the 11Jght Lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) for the very use-
ful -measure, just intrpilneed. He 'Could bear testimony
to -the extent of the benefits which would be rendered
by 40aBill, from his knowledge of the number of pee'.
sons-three hundred—which :bad been resewd from' itn-
prisoriecee.,at by the Society, for the Relief of Small
Debts. Moat of these persons were, confined for sums
to the amount of V. 145., and many for sums so IoW as 30e.
and 205.--(Hear, bear.)—lt was a great hardship on the
citizens of London, that they should be obliged to defray
the eliarge' of 'maintenance of persons for such sums as
these. For a debt Of 5/. debtors were liable to an impri-
sonneent .of S hundred days.—(Hear, hear.)—He con-

. -
sidered that the iropckcpment of debtors for small debts was
one of the principal causes of the increase of crime. The
Worthy Alderman expressed a wish gist the Bill might ex-
tend to debts of 201., instead of being limitzd to 10/.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that his object was to adopt

...
the f4a:.plest and least expensive mode fot the recovery of
small debts. ,;,stead of the circuitous proceeding by in,
formation, lie proposed Alkat..it would be sufficient for A to
swear that B owed him a certain sum for goods sold and
t
iverad. As to the raisin. of the ;am to ttyenty pounds,
A 144 might he done afterwards. The Right ri.Q..peptle-
man p.'ceeded to state, that he would approve of a poilrer ,
bbeyming4vtaetteinfin.,.th4eCourt, of ordering small stuns to he paid
tion to pay the debet;T-atrirethewas,4Vtdorenlcl'aogf
oacfiiiinrdduisstproiostii:s
.ethellatitacateilirfr.
g;itrus ut,nz.
. fiNl:eist,lire}:sipebct tothofee3; with ;he :,:ception of
unwilling
ti Inileewnasodttuiodal
Initny,aovrtaklynneyorwdoifsa:i
nrel.it.triliefat 1
-roLArOofx,;s'lll;
I:i iin:tti:i
.fees fixed:by the Acp;
no objection, how-
ever, that they should he dipakrilag,inia_ivF
or order wh*eve.-
in any cases in which,
they could be consistently red,;(,e'd..."
44 fixed the lie-
„ls.'s fre for any rule, judgment,
lOW .I'ge of 19. The Right Hon. Gentleman r • "
au urther stated
that it was intendeal to divide the larve-
ose oe fvilit f , r counties into dis-
at the
preventionicri
lrieti, for the MP , a ing the d .
Ile execution of
expressed Ids eo.nylctie,a +1
the provisions of the pill.. • .
• . .44t the Bill
powerfully to ,the
've bene
wouldr; h6e.prLoAdrive of extensive _Ct to. the • ,
crime. There might be many who would wi,ll to go .t classes, and would operOP
little further than the EigAt Zion. Gentiemaji (mr• Peel),
he thought the Right lion. peptiemp v. Proceedings
in a safe and steady eourse; and if he wonld paliloA the
homeliness of the allusion, he IC'ould" say to his friends on
his own side of the House, 0 po no ride 3 willing horse
to death."—{Hear, and a laugh.)
Leave was then granted to bring in-the 13114 , - • ~-.
POOR LAWS,
Mr. SLANEY, pursuant to notice, :loved for the ap-
pointment of. a Select Committee, to consider that part of
the Poor Laws relating to the employment and relief of
able-bodied persons from the Poor Rates, and the abuiis
arising therefrom. The appointment of this Ceomo34tee

. 111, t`'.

was peculia►ly desired, froin a consideration of the degra-
dation of the poorer classes in the Southern Counties of
England, which present a contrast to their condition in the
Northern Counties. Arran instance of this, he would
state that in CuMberland, where the evils which it was the
object of the proposed Committee to remedy did not pre-
vail, the poor rate was not more than one shilling and
sixpence; whereas, in Sussex, Whei'e "the description of
abuses which it was the object. of his motion to correct,
prevailed, the poOr rate was 7s. 6'd. In. the pound, on .the
whole rack rent of the county. But, taking a more
comprehensive ground of
.cOnipariatin—;taking, for: in-
stance; eight counties in 'which the abtres were to he
found, and eight counties which were exempt from thein,:it
would be seen that where the latter paid 750,9004 blioor
rates, the former paid double that account ; and thiS cal-
culation was founded on two di4tricts were the population
was equal, or nearly `so: 'He would only further remark,
that, on a calculation made as to the increase in the num.
ber of ,persons in. England and Wales receiving relief from
the Poor Rates, it appeared that in 1800 the proportion
was one in nine; and that in 1826, ,by the Returns, the
proportion was ofie-in seven. That the employment and
relief of able-bodied men from the poor, and the abuse
arising therefrom was one Principal cause of that increase,
appeared ,from the Reports of. five Committees"of that
House—from the Report of a•Committee that 'oat in 1807.
the. Committee on Labourers' Wages that sat inllBl9
—of the Committee on Emigration in 1826—and'id the
Committee on Criminal Commitments in 1827. On the
these• grounds be rested the motion.
The motion was agreed to, and a Select Committee
appointed for the purposes therein stated.
PENSIONS' ACT AMENWIENT BILL_pRO I_
SION FOR MR, CANNING'S -FAMILY.

'Mr. HUME said iliat_since the night • on which' that
grant was first proposed, he had been furnished with an
additional ground of objection to it. That objection was
founded on the resistance_ given to a motion made by .him
for the production of the amount and appropriation of the
ninsions on the Civil List. It was well known that there
Were large sums, to the extent of 200,001. at the disposal
of the Crown', for •.the.reward of meritorious persons; or:
their families. He owned, that in moving flir the account
that would point out to the House the appropriation gibe
sums on the English Pension List, he was desirous ;to as-
certain if the grant to Mr. Canning's family might not be
made from. that Fund, if the Honse 'should think proper to
make such :a grant. He was still of. opinion, that,. the
[louse should be put in Possession of the state of that Fund.
Several annuities of 1,208/.- a-year were settled upon it, and
he saw no-reason why the present grant should not he fixed
upon it, if it were in a situation to bear it. Sinee that most
extraardiniry decision of the House—tbe refusal' of his
motion—there had- been various rumours of the misap-'.
proptiation of that Fund, to which he could not farther ad-
vert, than to observe, that such misappropriation-was an ad-
ditional reason for showing' the propriety 'and necessity
of the House inquiring into it. • Now, with reepect to
the grant itself, he dis Claimed any disrespect on his
part to the 'private character and. conduk of Can-
nine.. All that he had heard lion that subject was
highly creditable to . his memory. But when this grant
of a provision for his family was required to mark
the `approbation of his whole conduet--when. it was
spurned even on the plea of liberality, and called for as a re-
ward of Mr. Canning's services, as a patriot . and a friend
of his country—he (Mr. H.) could not aPprove of it.
Upon these grounds he would oppose•the grant, and move
as an amendment—" That this Report be received this day
three months.". •• .

Mr. MONCK not only disapproved of the present
grant, but' also of the precedent on which it was
founded. He thought the precedent of a 'grant tO Lord
Chatham's family was a bad one. That grant been
agreed to, he believed, unanimously in the House of Com-
mons, but in the House of Lords there were many dissen-
tients to it. In the Protest of the dissentients to sit two
grounds of objection were. taken : the first was an objec-.
tron,on the score of economy,and. the finances of the • coon-
try ; now he did not see anything more prosperouS in the
present financial • prospect4.of the country thiin existed at
that time which should not give -at least equal validity to
that objection now.—(Hear, hear, from Mr. Hume:). The
other objection. was one of a constitutional` nature, and one'
to.which he,was disposed to attach more weight-it 'was
an objection arising- from 'the jealousy and apprehension
that that grant (to. Lord Chatham) would be, made a pre-
cedent for passing more votes of a similar kind, and per-
Veiling them to purposes of party and of faction. • Alio-
ther ground of objection with him to votes of this kind was;
that they proceeded on a wrong assumption: was
assumed in • them, that all the services deserving post=
burnous honours were. only 'performed by persons sitting
on the Ministerial side of the House. He could'mot admit
this assumption. Many distinguished men had rendered
eminent services on the side of the House on which he
sat ; many treat men had wasted their lives in opposition
laughter)—men who might have enjoyed the
emoluments and-advailtages of 'offiees, but who declined
Office because they could not accept it conscientiously. Yet
he did not find any proposal made for posthumous .honours
or rewards to such men. He complained that there was'
no reciprocity in votes of this kind.—(A slight laugh.)
Another objection which weighed with him was, that he
thought rewards of this nature ought to be confined •to
nav4l and military services, and should not be extended- to
civil services. • •

• , .Sir J. NEWPORT, looking to the latter years of Mr,
Canning's public life, considered that Mr. Canning- bad
established sp large a debt of gratitude from this country,
and only from this country but from the whole of
lized Europe, that he should be wanting to himself, and
to a due sense of his duty, if he did not support, as lie.
most cordially did, the present grant of his
(Hear, hear.)—lt was • a claiin for services upon the
country, which the country ought to discharge.--(Hear.)
—To Mr. Canning was this Country indebted for having
separated and dissociated • her from the abominable Holy
Alliance, raised in opposition to all liberal institutions
throughout Europe. For the services which lie rendered
to the cause of freedom in subduing the baneful influence
of that Alliance on the Continent, a large debt of gratitude
was due to Mr. Canning.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Again;
lie supported: this grant on the ground of his : bold
and judicious recognition of the free republics of South
America.,,(flear, hear.)—As to the motion of his lion.
Friend (Mr. Hume) on a fortner night,. for the prodliction
of the Pension List, if he had been present on that occasiOn,
he would have soPported the motion.. But that was not
the question now.-(Loud cries of hear, hear.)—That
question had to be decided on its own merits, apart from
the present grant. lie Supported 'that grant as a posthu-
mous honour dme to the memory of a great statesman, Who
devoted his eminent talents to the service of hii coontti;
and who, in his devotion to that service,. was 'deprived of
..the opportunity and means of shaking anindequate
sion for his family. The claim of Mr. Canning on the
nation's gratitude he believed to be recognized by the
nation; and he considered the present grant as -a proper
and reasonable retribugon for his public services. He
should therefore oppose the Atnendment, and vote for the
original motion.
Colonel SIBTHORPE opposed the grant.
_ _

Mr. V.ESEY FITZGE-IiALD Perfectly agreed with
the corieindipg sentence of his Right Hon. Friend, when
lie proposed this gra4t; namely, that no matt who knew
and admired Mr. Canning's public character, but should
rote for the proposition, even. if decidedly opposed to Win
in politics. For hiniself,'he had too long concurred with
Mr. Canning in his political opinions—be had too long been
an bumble member of the same Government, to let it be
doubted that. his opinions op all the great questions of
foreign and domestic ' policy were the came as hip. Mr.
Canning's opinions were, in fact,' the same as those of the
Right Hon. and Hon. Gentlemen among whom be (Mr.
Fitzgerald) was then sitting. If, therefore, he. did not rest
pia support to the motion on that"ground, it was because
he was desirosos 'tiiia-nimity. With Out any reference to
political opinions, there had u:',do:4lgedly been public:_ ser-
vices performed by Mr. Canning—there bid been ap RP t;;;!*
abrogation of self-interest manifested by him, which en-
titled his familyto call upon the public for aid.; .and the very
oall way in itself an additional honour to his character. The
proposition was pot
.;;celi as to warrant the imputation
that the interests of ptailie economy
.werc digerardeq.--
The Hon. Member for Reading wished the House would
return to the wholesome practice of the' Constitution' at
periods when pensions Were granted only for naval and
;,liljtary services. God forbid that tngland—a country of
tree institution;--a country distinguished by civil virtues
,
--:aboold be so degrades that naval and military services
alone should be regarded, and that important civil services
should pass unrewarded:. Such a doctrine might, perhaK,
be held in Places where no services were estimated but
those .4f Pr • military riattire ; but lie did not expect to bear
it maintained witbin‘trfe ways pf the Douse of Commons of
England--,-of a gime which had so freveptly .witTfesrped
.Mr. Canning's dietinguislied eTertions. As to ,thefear that
the present .proposition might he brought in future as t!
precedent and eximple by a faction or a party, it appeare*l
to him to be 4.1101iy groodiess, lie did not conceive that
any similar proposition ever be spade pq party
ground'', If it -were, he thelight it would be easy.to anticir.
pate how it would be dealt with by Parliament. The
present proposition emanated from those 'who had long
anbP7.‘l3,lllor., althoughCing's separatedc°iiaglkel f;ro'mYhohiwinerbeyilicsirrucemesrafroi;
during the latter part of his public life, were most aoxioua
to do justice to his character? and to make that provisiola

for his family, to which they were in every point of view:
entitled.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH next rose, and spoke to
the following effect :—Sir, I feel that I should be guilty
of a great neglect of duty, if, not having addressed the
House upon this subject on any former occasion, I were
not to avail myself of this, 'my last opportunity, to justify
the vote which I intend to give ; and in so doing to express
my dissent from some of the maxims which ive have heard,
maxims subversive of the whole of that system of national
rewarcts which forms -one of the best parts of the policy of a
poWerful, a civilized, and above all, a free State. In so
thimg, Sir, I should, have been exceedingly desirous to re-
commend a 'cairn tone of discussion —a' 'tone calculated to
appease, and noeto excite, those angry feelings, which are
so peculiarly'unSititable to the consideration of such a sub-
ject as thatupon which .we. are now called upon to decide.
My Right Hon. Friend, however, who has just spoken, has
too well performed, that office to render it necessary for me
to do any thing, except to endeavour to prevent a recur-
rence of any undue warmth by my own example, and by
the nature of the topics to which I shall advert. Sir, the
only ground on which I intend to justify my opinion on this
question, and the vote which,.if it be brought to a division,
I shall give upon it, is—that every man in the House,
whatever may have been his political differences from Mr.
Canning, who believes that this country still possesses the
means of shewing honour to an illustrious" and departed
Statesman, by making a moderate provision for big family,
is bound to support the present Bill—(Hear, hear, hear.)
—That proposition, comprehends the justification of the
vote, which, if. lam called upon to give it, I shall give
'more heartily than I ever gaVe a vote upon any question
whatever. But, Sir, lam desirous of.stating a little more
explicitly the general principle on which, in my apprehen-
sion_, honours such as these sot merely may be granted,
but on which alone they can justly-be granted. They can
be justly granted only when they have reference to a man
inhonourable public employment, and of splendid and 'dis-
tinguished endowments, when he has filled a station high
enough, and for a time long enough, to enable the public
,to judge 'of his commanding talents and of the purity of his
motives. Whenever that has been the character and posi-
tion of a public' man,' and when, after his decease, his
family arc in circumstances to ,require 'assistance, that as-
sistance (malt not to be, withheld. All who agree in the
soundne.si of this maxim—that is, all who agree with what
has been the invariable practice of all great and civilized
nations—must vote for the present proposition:. -for let us
consider what would be the consequence if this maxim
Were not received. If I am, justified in objecting to any,
such proposition as the present, on the ground that I dif-
fered in political opinion from the individual who is the ob-
ject of it, it follows that no national honours can at any
time be paid to a distinguished Statesman in this country.
In every country, more or less, but in this country especi-
ally—where, as ive all know, party. is sometimes carried to
a foolish excess—it is absolutely impossible that any man
can pass a long public life, without supporting or opposing
many measures, on which .there exists the greatest differ-
ence- of opinion. The nature of our Constitiition forbids
the possibility of such an occurrence. If, therefore, a una-
nimous or a general concurrence in the opinions of any
pUblic man during a period of thirty or forty years is to
be considered necessary,- in order to justify a proposition
sedi as the present, it clearly follows that no national
honour, or reward can ever be conferred on any public man
whatever. A victorious faction, indeed, may grant
honours and rewards to its chief; but national honours
and rewards can never more' be conferred on meritorious
public servants. It would be worse than folly to render
such questions the subjects of factious contest. Sir, no per-
son can approach the contemplation. of ' departed talents,
and 'genius, and virtue, without feeling that they are entitled
to the reverence of every good mind. lam persuaded
that such is. the sentiment of every Hon. Member, who
now hears me ;. and that whatever warm words may have
fallen from different individuals with respect to this sub-
ject, those words are far' from representing a settled and
permanent feeling. We have been told by the Hon. Mem-
berfor Reading, that he is desirous 'of recalling those times
when national honours were paid only to the profession of
arms. Sir, I should have thought that such an objection
as that had been sufficiently.refuted' in the first debate in
this House upon the subject, by the eloquence and by the
example Of the Hon. and Gallant Officer who ii the Com-
mander-in-Chief of his Majesty's troops' in Ireland ; and
• who is not, more distinguished as an ornament of the pro-
fession to which he belongs, than he is by the manner in
which he discharges his duties in this House. - That Hon.
and Gallant Officer, in a manner which did him infinite
credit, rejected the barbaric principle of confining national
honours to the achieveMents of war—of war, in which' it
IS very possible that barbarians may be able to cope with
us—and declared that it would rob the rewards of valour
Of half their value, if in such rewards the talents and the
virtues of civil life were not allowed to participate. That
Hon. and Gallant Officer, as eminent for the qualities
which he manifested in peace as he was for his exploits in
I war, rejected with disdain a monopoly which he considered
injUriouito his own profession. But, Sir, it has been said that
if indtimis such as that now before us were not acceded to, it
would not thence follow that no honours or rewards would be
Conferred on Statesmen. True; those honours would be con-
ferred by the Crown; those rewards would be conferred by

the Crown. The means of wealth are always opened to a
Statesthan by the Crown, and if such a Bill as that.on
'the Table, is to be rejected,. he. will- be taught to avail
himself of them.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—All that the
Amendment proposed by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen
can do is, not.to • take away the means of rewarding our
great 'Statesmen, but to deprive both Houses of Parliament
of one of-their most valuable privileges—the power of con-
ferring rewards and honours on those, or on the families of
those, whose splendid and illustrious talents and . virtues
commanded the admiration of the world.-:--(Hear, hear.)
—Shall I be told, Sir, that because at a former period I
differed from Mr. Canning on political subjects; that my
present sentiments are inconsistent with that difference?
Sir, it is enough for me.that he was a man of honour, as
every one Knocvs. him to have been ; that he wa.s a man of
splendid talents, as every one knows him to have been ; that
lie was a man whose genius exercised a powerful influence
throughout Europe, and gave additional dignity and charac-
ter to this country, as every one knows that it did. By
the high qualities which he manifested, he rendered his
public career illustrious. Sir, I will refer to an observa-
tion of I3olingbroke's,, made in a much more chivalrous
Spirit than some of the remarks which I have lately listened
to in this House. . Being asked his opinion of the Duke of
Marlborthigh, with whom he had long had a fierce political
contest, .his. answer was, " he was so great a man that I
have forgotten his faults."—(Hear, bear.)—Something
-has been said of the vote of this House, after the death of
Lord Chatham. Lord North happened to be absent at the
time
.whetr that vote was. proposed. Ho returned to the
House in a hurry ; .and immediately after having taken, Ilia
seat, rose to.expresa,the happiness he felt in being in time to
share in the honour of supporting the Motion. Letany dis-
passionate person read that part of our history : let him read
it with a freedom from all bias and preiuilice, and I will then
ask hiM if lie does not love the memory of that amiable
man the more for the generous course which he pursued
on that occasion ? Sir, a great mistake appears to exist
with respect to the vote to which I have just adverted.
The Hon. Member for Reading enjoys the distinction of
being the only man who has censured it: Since the period
of its occurrence no other human creature has condemned
it, or has spoken of it in any but terms of the highest ap-
probation. The cireumstanees pf the case are sometimes
forgot. We are apt to suppose, that it was Lord Chatham
at the end of the seven years' war. But what is the fact?
That previously to this vote, Lord Chatham had for eight
years been
engaged in.a personal and most acrimonious op-
position to qoverninept—se acrimonious that the compara-
tively lukewarm politicians of the present day mould take
-fright at the language in which he occasionally indulged.
If any one had said. to .Lord North, "What ! will you
'grant these bononrs to the memory of a man whir has so
virulently and so pertinaciously -attacked you—who has
charged you with folly and imbecility—who has.
ed his Majesty's subjects to rehellion7-7wlin has rejoiced at
the resistance of America to your measures-who
prophecied the impracticability -of subduing three mil-7
lionsof people ?" Lord North-might haVe justly answer-
ed, I do not vote thus in consequence of these expreseiens,
but in spite of them ; vote thus because Lord r hathani
was an. illustrious man, who. did honour to his 'country' ;
I vote thus, on the principle that if such a vote be not ac-
ceded' to, we can never pay a mark of national respect
to the memory of a
great public man."—(Hear, hear.)
Sir, I will say nothing. of the cases of Mr. pitt and Mr:
except that I believe the votes - in those cases were
unanimous in both Houses of Parliament. And if the
Hon. Member for Reeding will read' the Protest 'to which
he hai alluded, he wi).l find that it is not signed by those
whom he would ivish quote as authoriOrh ut hold 19 as
ex‘riPle• Tie will notlnd attached to it the names of
Camden- apd.' Riebinend ; ram Wl:a zealously employed
themselves, in the fortheranee of the measure in question ;
honouring the man to whom they bad nevertheless been
warmly opposed. Sir, it appears to TN 11.1 a. the only
grow' on thie vote ought to rest, is that which
have described; namely, a e,wietiou on our part of
pu-
rity of motive, of superiortalent,
uatio4 for talen, .exerted in a high si-
a time sufficiently long, to enable the public to
give that sanction to the proposed honours, without which
air honours are valueless. Cllo those gruuuds I rest my
vote. I will not say that those who vote for the Bill may
not have lawful auxiliary motives, Private friendship,

•I,
~ s ... .
.... • , - , ~,
,for instance, would be a lawful auxiliary motive, although
it would not be a just ground on which to rest the vote.
Such a motive might sweeten the performance of that
which duty would 'otherwise prescribe. On the other
hand, however, personal enmity or resentment would not
be a lawful auxiliary to.. an opposition to ground the mo-
tion. For our feelings may. be allowed to
.aid us in the
discharge of our duties; hitt 'ought not to be allowed to
impede us. Feelings of kindness may be tolerated, even
if exceAsive ; bud feelings of a contrary character ought to
la/Closely watched, and ought never to bepermitted to ' •
in-
terpose and prevent us froth rendering honours to those to
whotu honours are due. The more especially should that
be the rule when such honours are posthumous:—
_ _

" Mors. ()bruit iras."

I do not charge—God forbid that I should charge—any
One with entertaining feelings of this abhorrent nature. 'I
have merely stated that which I have stated, in illustration
Of what lam going further to state. I say then, that ap-
probation Of the measures of a great statesman, is a lawful
auxiliary to the motives of such a vote as the present ; but
that disapprobation of those measures would not be a law-
ful auxiliary to an opposition to that vote. If it were not
so, the result would ba monstrous. If it were not
so, we could not have had such a vote as the. present for
the,last century. The same reasons apply to this view of
the case as tothat which I have just before taken. We must
lay out or:our account differences of political opinion; if
we admit that posthumous honours of any description
ought to be conferred on eminent public men. Public re-
sentment ought no more to influenceus on such an occasion
than private enmity. I think, therefore, that my Hon.
Friend was quite right, who stated his approbation of one
part of Mr. Canning's political conduct as auxiliary to his
motives for voting for the Bill ; but I should not consider
any Hon. Gentleman right who shoulditate that his dis-
approbation of any part of Mr. Canning's 'political con-
duct was auxiliary to his motives for opposing the Bill.—
There is no inconsistency—no incongruity in this. Our
opinion is required, not on the expediency .of this or that
political measure, but en the value of great talent, ho-
nestly exerted for the benefit of the country. Sir, I might
enter much more largely into this subject ; but I will- ab-
stain from doing so. I•will only allude to what a great
Poet has said of two Statesmen, who in their, day opposed
each other with the firmest determination. The state he
observes-- .

" Carteret's calm mind, and Stanhope'inOble fame
Adnair'd ; and saw their generous end the same." •
Nor will a great Poet of our own time be charged with'
being lukewarm in his political feelings,' because, when
speaking of the neighbouring graves of the two . greatest
Statesmen of modern dap, be says:—
" Drop upon Fox's tomb a tear,
'Twill trickle to his rival's bier."

-I mention these circumstances as proofs of the unsophisti-
cated feeling and common sense of mankind on this sub-
ject ; for to those feelings and to that sense will every great
and successful poet be found to have addressed himself. Sir,
with regard to myself, I cart most conscientiously declare,
"that if the same question had arisen in 1821, I should have
given the same vote upon it that I shall give this night.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—That vote would have been as satis-
factory to my conscience, although it might not have been
so gratifying to my feelings as a public man. But I will
abstain from further remarks, not only out of respect to
those Hon. Members who differ from me on this subject,
but also out of respect to the memory of Mr. Canning him-
self; whose immortal name is already under the guardian-
ship of the historian.. For above six-and-thirty years I had
the happiness of knowing 'that great man ; who always,
treated me both here'and elsewhere with the kindness of a

. .
friend. His friendship was the' only favour I' ever re-
ceived
from him ; but it was the'greatest he could bestow.
—(Hear, hear.)
. Mr. COURTENAY said that considering the situation
in which be stood with reference to Mr. Canning, he might
be allowed to explain why he supported the grant..:. Very
far from being disinclined to urge- his private friendship
with Mr.. Canning, he was very proud to avow, not only
friendship, but gratitude towards him.; and if he . failed
to express the • circumstances of his connexion' with
that great person, it was from no insensibility to
the greatness of his mind, or to the kindness of his
heart. lt was to particular circumstances, known -to all
whom he addressed, to which he alluded, but beinghim-
self mixed up with them, was the chief reason why he did
not detail them at the present moment. AS to the eco-
nomy, on which the Hon. Member for Reeding had.dwelt,
he should say that. the argument was whimsical and. ab-
surd. The nation had within fifteen years sent hack to
the people 30,000,000 of taxes, and that it should not
now he able to pay 3,0001. a-year in reward of public
services, was a position certainly of a most extraordinary
nature, even were the 3,000/. to be raised by an additional.
burthen to the country, instead of being taken from a fund
to be appropriated by the Crown. it had been argued that
the grant Tight be. a precedent for other grants to be voted
from party feelings ; but it must be recollected' that the
present proposal proceeded from a Minister who was coin,
pelted to retire from Mr. Canning's accession to (Ate.. If
ever there was a case uninfluenced by party feeling, it Was
the present. The Hon. Member for Reading had referred
to the period_ when none but naval and sailitarY 'services
were rewarded, but at what time was this the practice of
their ancestors? Was it not some ;00 years ago, when
there were no .civil services at all, and When nothing but
military merit. was known.. Let Gentlemen look at the
Peerage and
,see how many of the Bea& of the first families
had been raised by their. civil services. He would ask any
person who thought it right and consistent with the spirit
of the Constitution that Commoners should -be raised to
the dignity -of the Peerage, whether Mr. Canning, by
great. talents and useful services to the - Crown and
public, 'had not entitled himself to `= this distinction ?
Lie would not draw any comparison between the services
of Mr. Canning and the Duke of Wellington, hut he would
ask whether the services of Mr. Canning hail not been
equal to' the services of those pnblie characters on whom
pensions of three thousand 'a year for three lives had been
conferred? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
just spoken, had with justice stated the various grounds
'on 'which it was possible to support this grant ; and taking
the whole of Mr. Canning's life, he (Mr. Courtenay)
should say, that the only exception was when Mr. Can-
ning had lent' himself to the views of the Hon. Member
for Dorsetshire, and- therefore he was the more surprised
at that lion. Member's Opposition to the grant.—(A
laugh.)—He would maintain, that in the latter, part of
Mr. Canning's life there was no deviation from principle,
and in every point of view he should support the grant.
Mr. DANIEL WHITTLE HARVEY said that, ac-
cording to the arguments used on the present occasion, he
could not-see on what ground any Member could withhold:
his sanction from the. present grant, or from any other that
could be proposed. It would seem that the House was to
grant this sum not on the grounds of services rendered to
the country ; that they were not to call to their recollec-
to' be dismissed frOm
,the happiness and prosperity of the nation, nor the politi-
caltion the nature of those services, antnheeciter
d influencevith the up
iliosn.
career which had, and long would have, such an im-
portant influence upon every thing
connected
theirtr. y of
minds, the aaonudn ttr yh e -all this
)louse cir-
cumstance that Mr. Canning' was endowed with Unri-
valled talents. If this alone were the ground on which
the vote NM to be sanctioned, he might congratulate the
country that many years Might pass before another such
appeal could 'be made to the House. It did appear 'to
him, that a- person. of comparatively - humble talents to
tws was ' 's
to consider only the
those of Mr. Canning; might so direct those talents,
with singleness of heart and genuineness of porpose, as
.to raise to himself honours not less solid than those which
the admirers of Mr. Canning's policy think he has a right
to claim of his country. lie ceuld not dismiss from his.
mina an hnpression of Mr. Canning's policy, which would
prevent him coming to the conclusion that his public ser-
vices were entitled to the grant proposed. He could not
forget Mr. Canning's uniform and bitter hOstility to every
thing really connected with the ; .nierests of. the country.
No man ever directed the stre.am of his inimitable cloven re
r invariably in derision of all popular rights as Yr. Can,
ning. He could not forget, nor would the .corptry easily
forget, the savage brutality with tvt,i7.l he spoke of the
Manchester massaqe, not that with which he turned the
pltrif,al sufferings of a poor fellow-citizen into an object of
deiision. When-he heard of such extreme disregard c,f ail
pecuniary considerations, he could not forged the arrange-
ment by which Mr. Canning Won! to be transported to
Lisbon, at an expenr4e of 10,00.01.. a year to the people.
if Ministers were so strongly impressed with the great and
splendid services of Mr. Canning, why did, they snfccr she
Session to tioger nearly to its termination wkthont expier-
ing t6ir intention of conferring thi.i pension? lie was in-
clined to think that the measure had been coerced upon
them' kk, the notice of a MOtion given in that House. 4q-
other thing occurred to his mind, which would ineaee him
to Withhold his sanction to the grant; -Ao mau-regretted
more than he did, that pnweby which he (Mr. Canning)
disarmed one of the greatest Oppositions that ever sat apon
the lgt of the House. He enticel over the whole Opp°.•
siiion of England, with one exceptwn,i and led them
abandonment of their principles- (Cheers.) He stover
could f rget tilt) lectures be read them, when surrottuded by
the wt, rle Whig Aristocracy of England. He laid down
to the the Catechism by which he regulated the political
terms on which they came te, support him,--unceasing,
uncompromising enmity to Reform, and opposition to the
repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts. God forbid he
5,4001 ent,ertaM any feTional hostility tQ Ur. Canning's