The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

I
ment would not have sentence passed upon him, but
would allow the judgment to hang over his head. He
hoped the House would not suppose for a moment that
he meant to advocate the cause of repeal ; he was its
most strenuous opponent, and every man in England
would, he felt assured, take up arms, if it was necessary,
to prevent its being carried into effect--(Hear, hear.)
It would be throwing Ireland into the arms of Fra,ce.
But if O'Connell were sent to prison what would be the
consequence ? Would not he still retain his influence
over the priests ? Would not the priests exercise their
power over their flocks ? The people of Ireland
might remain passive, but what if they did
not pay rent or. taxes ? Thousands might
be ejected for rent, but they could not eject millions.
Then, in case of war with France or America, how
would this country be situated ?—(Hear, hear.) He
remembered the last war—when, even with our supe-
rior fleet, French vessels reached Ireland. Now there
were war steamers, and with a disaffected people, it
would be almost impossible to prevent France from
making an impression upon Ireland. lie did not believe
that at the present moment the Irish were disloyal ; but
if they were treated in the manner they had been, their
loyal feelings would be entirely alienated.—_-(Hear,
hear.) It might be said that it was imprudent to men-
tion those things, but was it not better to mention them
in times of peace,' when remedies could be applied
than in time of war, when it would be too late.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought the Noble Lord, the Member for the
City of London, had made a very moderate speech, and
he thought the proposal for doubling the grant to May-
nooth College very reasonable and very proper. He
further agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that
the Catholic hierarchy ought to be acknowledged by
their titles, and that Government should ordain the mi-
nisters of that Church. The Hon. Member's dislike to
the Roman Catholics reminded him that he had been in
Scotland some time ago on a visit with some friends of
his. They were elderly ladies—(Laughter)—in short,
they were old maids.--(Renewed laughter.) He asked
them their opinions of the Catholics and the Episcopa-
lians, and they said it was impossible the Catholics could
'be saved, and even of the Episcopalians they had great
doubts.—(A laugh.) He would read some lines from an
old book, which he had copied for the purpose of reading
to that House :
" They cried the mass down, 'cause (they said)
The priest in unknown language prayed.
And yet themselves their prayer-book sent
To such as knew not what it meant ;
And it was read, and psalms were sung,
And sermons preached in English tongue,
Among wild Irish, when not one
Knew what they said, but cried ' 0 hone !"
0 hone !' they cried, and shook their head
With grief, to change their mass and bead
For what they knew to be a prayer
No more,- poor souls ! than Banks's mare."
(The Gallant Commodore proceeded to narrate an
anecdote about Banks's mare and the six-and-

fourpenny stallion, amid the laughter of the House.)
That was not so liberal as the Right Hon. Baronet,
because he gave his bull for nothing.—(Roars of laugh-
ter.) He (Sir Charles Napier), however, did not think
that such a bull would satisfy Ireland.—(Continued
laughter.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder-

~
land had supposed the case of England being smaller
than Ireland, and that Ireland had, with a large force,
conquered England, and established in this country the
Catholic religion. Now this was the position in which
Ireland was now placed. There was no possibility of
Ireland conquering England ; but he (Sir C. Napier)
would suppose a case that was perfectly possible. Let
them suppose that Bonaparte, when he had an enor-
mous army at Boulogne, of two or three hundred thou
sand men, with an enormous flotilla, which, for some
time, had bewildered our fleet in such a manner that, if
the French Emperor had had a further force of forty-
six sail of the line, he could have proceeded up the
Channel. Now let them, under these circumstances, sup-
pose that Napoleon had conquered England, and after-
wards that he had been unwise enough to have brought
over with him French parsons, and that he had turned
all the clergy out of their different livings, and the
bishops out of their dioceses, and had directed the new
clergy to preach in a language the people of this country
did not understand—he (Sir C. Napier) asked whether
this country, under these circumstances, would have
remained long quiet?—(Hear, hear.) He thought
they would not have been long before they had made
some effort to drive the French out of England.
So with the Irish. They were now attempting
to drive the. English parsons out of their country. The
Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, in his speech,
went further than the Noble Lord the Member for the
City of London.—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir C. Napier)
thought he was right in doing so.— (Cheers.) The
Noble Lord, in the first place, wished the whole Protes-
tant Establishment of Ireland to be turned over to the
Catholics. He (Sir C. Napier) could not go quite so far
as that, but he quite concurred in another proposition
of the Noble Lord, which was, that the Catholics should
have a portion of the proceeds of the Protestant Esta-
blishment, which, in point of fact, was the same propo-
sition as that which had been made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield. The Noble Lord proposed that the
Catholics of Ireland should have a portion of the tithes
collected in that country, and he (Sir C. Napier) thought
it was but a reasonable proposition, and ought to be en-
tertained. Another proposition with respect to this sub-
ject was, that the Establishment in Ireland should be
abolished, and the proceeds given for the purposes of
education. Who would be injured if the Establishment
in Ireland were abolished, and how great would be the
benefit if the proceeds were given towards the education
of all classes of the community ? He, however, was
afraid that the nation at large would not take this view
of the case.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial
beaches.) They would not be prepared for it.—(Hear,
hear.) In order, therefore, to prepare them for it, the
Government should make a beginning. The
Government ought to show a willingness to
do justice to the people of Ireland, and the
nation would soon follow them.—(Hear, and cheers.)
This was what they must come to at last. How was
Catholic emancipation obtained ? It was a kind of
" Thank you for nothing."—(Laughter.) It was re-
sisted as long as possible, and yet, at last, the Right
Hon. Baronet—much to his credit, it was true--brought
forward the measure ; but then it was only a " Thank
you for nothing" affair.— (Laughter.) Justice for Ireland
would be conceded, but not until it was taken, as Ca-
tholic emancipation had been taken, as a kind of
" Thank you for nothing." The Church in Ireland, as
at present constituted, could never be maintained.
Sooner or later the Right Hon. Baronet must come for-
ward with some.measure of conciliation, and the sooner
he did so, the happier would be the people of the country
at large. Now he (Sir C. Napier) had a plan to pro-
pose, which was simply this--that whenever a living in
Ireland became vacant, instead of appointing another
person, the proceeds of the living should go to the
Treasury, to be applied to the purposes of education.
It was inconsistent with common sense that a parish in
1 which the number of Protestants was so few that the
clergyman was obliged to preach to his clerk and two or
three others—it was inconsistent with common sense
that, under these circumstances, a clergyman should be
appointed with a large . salary. The. Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies had said that the Catholics
would not accept a portion of the proceeds of the Pro-
testant Establishment, even if it were offered to them.
Why, did not that show the greatest moderation on the
part of the Catholics ? Did it not show that they did
not wish to rob the Church at all ? But they at
the same time wished to be placed in the same
position as the Protestants. It had been said that the
tithes in Ireland had been commuted, and that the land-
lords were the parties who paid the tithes. Who was
it, he would ask, that paid the landlord ? Suppose the
landlord had two farms on his estate ; one he let to a
Protestant and the other to a Catholic tenant—the Pro-
testant had a church found fOr him, but the Catholic was
obliged to pay for his.—(Hear, hear.) It was contrary to
common sense to suppose that the Catholic could cope
with his neighbour the Protestant. He (Sir C. Napier)
would just relate an anecdote bearing upon this subject.
He was going on the road to Cork, in a common fly,
and he met a very decent-looking young lady—
(Laughter)—he saw, that she was a decent and respec-
table-looking girl.—(Continued laughter.) This was no
joke. He said to the young girl, " I suppose you are
all the better now the tithes are commuted, and the
proprietors pay all the tithes ?" She said, with the
utmost naivete, " Do you see that man working? He has
got a bit of garden for which he is obliged to pay tithes
to the Protestant clergyman, who he thinks is sending
his soul to the devil, and he is obliged to pay to the Ca-
tholic priests'to prevent his going there."—(Laughter.)
What did this show, but that the Catholic, in point of,
faith had to pay two tithes ? The Noble Lord, the Se-
cretary for the Colonies, in the course of .his speech the
other night, read in the most solemn manner, the oath
which was taken by the Catholic Members of that
House. He (Sir Charles Napier) could not help say-
ing, that this was an insult to the Catholic Members of
that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, after that,
inquired, if it was proposed to send the Catholic Bishops
into the House of Lords, because unless they did, he
said, there could be no equalisation. His (Sir C.
Napier's) answer to that was, that he would send no more
Bishops into the House of Lords, because there
were too many there already.—(Laughter.) He would
not say whether he would wish to see those out who
were in at present. He would ask the Noble Lord
whether he would continue to pay a Protestant clergy-
man a large salary, where there was no congregation ?
Could there be a more unjust thing than
that ? He looked upon the idea as absurd.
They had for the last 300 years been endeavouring to
make all the people of Ireland Protestants, but they had
not succeeded, and he thought that everybody must see
that such an attempt could never succeed. Let the
Right Hon. Baronet and his' colleagues come forward
with some comprehensive measure with regard to Ire-
land. Much had been said about social rights in that
country, but these were not the only rights they had to
consider. There were others equally important. The
people of this country would never believe that the Ro-
man Catholic religion was the true one. They had
been taught by their parents to follow the Protestant
religion as the only proper one. If then this was the
case in England, let Hon. Members opposite show some
liberality of opinion towards the Irish Catholics. They
had been educated in their youth to look upon the Ro-
man Catholic religion as the only true one, and it had
been inculcated upon them as the most perfect one.
These were his sentiments, and he hoped and trusted
that the Right Hon. Baronet, and Hon. Gentlemen who
were, with him, would get rid ere long of these preju-
dices, and that ultimately such measures would be
adopted with respect to Ireland as would give satisfac-
tion to the country at large.
Mr. GORE said that allusion had been made to the
Church of Scotland, but he did not think that the cases
of the Scottish and Irish churches were parallel cases.
Considering the anomalous position in which the Church
stood, it was their duty to remove the inequality which
deprived the Chiirch of respect and power, and to render
it what it ought to be—the source of religion and happi-
ness to the people. If the Government were to intro-
duce measures of such a tendency, he would give his