The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-07 00:00:00

148. he intended, at a future time, to move an inquiry
Police
to the whole question of the administration of the
,teir J. GRAHAM said he was not at all prepared for
'l. speech the Noble Lerd had delivered, as he had re-
i°lod no notice whatever (.f his intention to ' ring the
,lect forward. The Neble Lord had last year moved
Ua Similar return, and he (Sir James Graham) then
statenow he was ready to accede to it ; nor had he
aims any objection to granting the present one. In the
lit.eee of the Chief secretary for Ireland, and without
but he
he could not go into the details of the subject,
te`" he believed 't would be found that the Lord Lieu-
eflant of Ireland hid fully carried out the administration •
p .ole law intrusted to him.
rd ' eLt MENTS apologised to the Right Hon.
,sl/Bronet fur the abrupt manner in which he had brought
,7,_°!esttbject forward, but he still contended it »as one
`41.41,g for inquiry.
the'.° A.TTORNEY•GENERAL (Ireland) quoted
L. k2th section of the Arms' Act, under which the Lord-
diak:_ete.n.ant had proceeded, and added that there was no
es t‘!sittoll on the part of the Government to withhold
sey Informat.
,Affr_ ton.
vpits w an explanation from Lord CLEMENTS, which
lutell:'Attorrupted by cries of " Spoke," and a few words
tinee hiepp ,
F. RENCH, confirming what had fallen from '
ter tneY-General, the Return was ordered.
ths rite CLEMENTS then moved for " a Return from
hit' ;41erk of the Crown of the county of Leitrim, of the
to he „and residences of those Jurors who were ordered
ette:_atied by the Judge of Assize at the Summer As-
seteTt 1844, held in Carrick on Shannon ; and Copies
eh, se";eeffit davits of any such Jurors accounting for their
due the, ogether with the Orders of the Judge of As-
Lee re°°•"--Agreed to.
!the 4 CLEMENTS then moved for a return, showing
,r? e tinbet„ of policemen in every county ir. Ireland who
sittse triune the duties of constables, but are em-
of 14_ ither as clerks or officers' servants, having charge ,
Seel its es or Otherwise, distinguishing the number of
ettipeeltell employment other than that of a constable,
`sees (ith the expense, including all pay and allow-
-1.4441. Leese in each employment.
alqetel! few words from Mr. BROTHERTON and
4 N R
is w e -, the return was agreed to.
heh 4 CH,
then moved for a return by name of
qeee IlswaY company, which had complied with the sixth
Setilsot:' the Act of last session for the regulation of
ibejss' and which came into operation on the Ist No-
her,'l'. With at of such compliance, as to the car-
heei
eir L9g. Seats and being protected from the ssea-
elettil, tile conveyance of third •class passengers; . also,
est otlettuin of those_ which have not complied, with
4111(Irelause of the said Act; and specifying also
ttkleLr4 or the day and the speed ot the trains in each
ttlC,PectiVely, under the penny a mile clause; the
deer dleether to show the steps taken (if any) to re-
eke •I,,Penalties provided by the said Act.—Agreed to.
Voiae;;LIORNELY moved for the appointment and
eel' l'e-eisnll °t S. Select Committee on public petitions:—
strteeB",%.elY,, Sir Hebert. elerry Inglis, Earl of Arun-
-11.4,104 "ttey, Lord Courtenay, Vlscount,Duncan, Cap
'1141,' lir- Cowper. Mr. Pusey, Mr. Edward Buller,
itlik kr""e3', Mr. William Hamilton, Mr. Owen Stan-
ei°,,tr. v?,tiPns, and Mr. Villiers Stuart.—Agreed to.
',l4es4 A T Postponed his motion regarding Corn
kue the Private Bills. •'h
•
•4`itte),, notion that the answer of her most gracious
INte• the address of the House of Commons.
Q,Il '
Q. ()tee
t
4 .-,EN wished to call the attention of the
Ve,h, ,(:)3. Gentleman to the absence in the royal
;Clete: any reference to the state of the agricultural
bated 4., Member of the Government
.hail, indeed,
Stetiltas_Le give an exanation, by saying that the
eh,. ""Ltt, 1 districts were not in such a state of
le? li-•if as, . to demand any . particular refs-
qlh Pthe, this was the reason, it was a departure
el:tie gent, for hitherto extraordinary depression
lo,:ire otbBfteufectures or agriculture, was the cause of
• 1114 fsel.erVatiOß. Last year, when a Committee was
le6, el, en'? inquire into the state of the agricultural
Ivil, of the grounds for refusing it was, that
kle 'er A 6 3. quarter ; now wheat was only 455. a
tst ele;tlhesnd he would a.sk the Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
%Sp' they felt themselmes justified in holding
it,'Neka°geine expectations to the farmers respecting
Itiele of price, inducing them to enter into bargains
ktt4tietti the supposition that farmers had the power
ISe, helve Price of land. Lord Beaumont, at a great
kt`r,iftst.„; teeeting, had stated that Parliament would
tteletterae,FB 565. for their corn. Had events justified
Sel. late crib °n? b
i. lion. Gentlemen opposite said farmers
",_tetrie„l 'feta want of sufficient protection, be.i be
10:41`tetC tueught they were suffering frees protec-
Nt ether,
The Hon. Members ;apposite repre-
Ll/4letitteverfel interest, and if they really thought
,44:ttet1;:11 land so onereeis he thought they could'
trote4etste- Ilia° Join with hinl'in calling for a Select
tllote°,r the House to inquire into them. He was
Sthet..4l.et4i,°°Pea that this would be acceded to ; and if
ettltetB Who professed to be such warm friends of
‘NO% dot did join with Hon. Members on that
see eex
kqtt t 14
r,ouse, they weuld coerce the Government
rtlei°B:ke'cknenittee. He mentiored this subject to
:,,114.1,,, for Somersetshire (Mr. Miles), who re-
, 4h/1lb:1411 the courts sy possible, and thought that
it4ll teetskeenied willing to accede to the hiespropo!i-
- ue
,(Mr. Cobden) asked was full, fair,
li, m'ncluiry. He had waited patiently to see
eti.
th-e 0), comber would bring forward this motion,
ittt t; sate g so, he thought it his duty again to
Leh /14,Ject under time consideration of the House.
L'etOieted,S_ thanked the Hoe. Member for the manner
I'44:t he had spoken of him • but he should recut-
Qiiteght• se:B,ol3ly an individual Member, and could
teN ellistee' tue t• hole agricultural body. If the agri-
VS 41list! existed which the Hon. Member de-
Citittlift, Pit ask the Government to accede to the
ctshheetes:"Nrely the observations of a Noble Lord
Ot .AI ' N'4eghter)—could form no basis for.the
0 tlee islnteeest forming such sanguine expetations
iji'Aikthniet":4,Pricesof corn.- The Right Hon. Gentle-
01.8ethe (I°l the ,Government had spoken distinctly
C. tto a 'batter, and nothing he said could be con-
tstsq, he triarentee to the farmer for the price of
4,tlssAtee Ight Hon. Gentleman had distinctly stated
Otsgsell the nun Prevent fluctuation of prices. Ile did
khlky ,'", Leith . "room were much inclined to trouble the
1,711k,'4,tt,, ~,- teeital of their grievances. He was sorry
4 th ben
leNrse,,,e lousily speaking. the farmers did not. trust
Isi s ltee, „„'e el Commons for an alleviation of
liesl'lltlethe;„l,.'• he Hon. Member must take his own
ki,411,"g, 0, "J,ect. There were Members both able
411,e4Poti thstuat side of the House, to
.state their
pi.,.,ket onto " question ; but he (Mr. Miles) would
kle,th„Q, IllastaY or the other.
Its:ititeee 1,,,,"`N whe spoke in • such a low tone of
th; l' form"° ,"B almost inaudible in the gallery, was
V!Stotsi);
4,,Y that it seemed a principle with that
_et ofll sessions past, to refuse all inquiry into
vutt;vor before distress. The facts of that
ie44`..et„;(?re them ail They had a corn-law,
0•--441,4 Ilist4rilablYt though varying in degree, desti.
41,..7r ~,,"4 tteCOM i d it. The Noble Lord,
o,,i„sa, The . pan e
lq '4 I than city of London, had well said the
ti44eill
the
eo at
rr, ,Protection was the bane of agriculture,
1/411 the tlittre‘—',ltvv, as he had said, they had distress,
t‘itt,hst,%iste,"„B, tneY had always been inclined to asso-
"to r l'Acii th—eedoitLa committee. They had the corn-
k lib ke.44 tithe
ha.,..ress, why then refuse the Com-
t`lo to ere ots " ascribed this distress to the change
sthssll4 !lace protection effected in 1842; yet they
titttine 44 it r.taun the working of that protection,
, 4)l4c:tansy of
the House. They promised, too,
A ISstkrerislestlt the Freemasons' Hall, and in other
IN Ss, 13,,,Te farmer from any other change in
Nltietiellet at""?,elet, therefore, wish to ask the Right
tNylisea die it'a! head of her Majesty's Govern-
Lee'lletee that ‘'lth all respect, whether he had given
~'.,)i teth::•) tie°o further reduction should be made?
~tiN,lldettl th ask, ed him if he had communicated
V 44 B,e s 0 B,w, fee IItI,"e would not meddle with the ex-
still,(,te ti °tit if "0 impression seemed to be, that he
dust 411/41 tkibe, a°t, he prayed the Right Honourable
111 globe, thisthe public mind i,f the impression
'4,041,1 ally
Bubsolerem assurance, because, if. he
it the eentesee•lch.° (Mr. Gibson) would feel him-
eh
it ,4 Es thou '4l tmg the rumour.—(Laughter)
0illt,11)4 8 tile ail at that it would have been but
1. to el:',4011 „llBL°n should have been made in her
4*tht,4'l,itit.met j„`°, ate distress which was but too well
isqh the Rtne agricultural districts. He agreed
l\, NI; did :or!' Member for Stockport, so far,
s ;4►e)iii ef ioi :' agree with him in another of his
jitlllt't4 5t,, lei! of tiltl.:lls some of those on that (the Con-
„kt4i b;ttlr -""'ve fo,'-'"use, in persevering in his deter-
(\Pe "nti:„Perioe-- TB4I inquiry int r this distress at
\tlitttp‘,44 e.! heua,, for. one, would not support
t, iveiltecittes ore, with reference to the
Vtif'd . ttlt the distress, he was convinced
h i 4 4 ette, °gether from the Chan es made in the
'i bide `lt heslitwhether permanent orgotherwise, and
‘;:Ost.lt'• kr°l.3" diaat.° t° say that those changes had pro-
-4i;;tll74lfreht„,
wiess which was now so prevalent.
4 t Itielithe llohlen had last spoken had reterred to
YitiL4LlLtit.ti_ , whe_ Lord, the Member fur London,
shit. ti
" he said that protection was the
i,)el'et.'"rd 1, 'lt remained 0440f6ee had chan to be seen whether
i;„'lllntlet L°' wile aged . his opinior.i.since the time
ii, 4es s ele e eansid his proposition for a fixed
keetip ethq ri. AL ered a protection to agricul-
V fiL4l4., sing'"oer for Wolverhampton, who
NN ~Ot • e d..eet of the •
ty .Nti.,' 4ted that prosperity
.of the menu-
lii,,,44L,,,,,,,,,:tih.,,th:takrsia.:),,f,,f,4bcezg,rrtsiheetzwlirtauspr.osperity
Then,
ifoc tc_ae-
rinsetsn.asiTonhe _ , h
d by the
/4'14;441.4 otkathur,za
districts,
411 fore th her side .„ why . Hon.
,11,, 4,, at kis ;eels to increase that distress
k`e s'm t "4trce erY ce--(Hear hear. ) The Hon.
ktilt,4ltoikstil:
bsi„..
I.ieer ok:_x:ved,, with refer.tehnactewtoithwhrea-t
„,lel,ttt:ti etZdtfieati•otn9estY 8 speech,
4 nti) th 4 lh, 4 our na °f the prohibitions which
r 0 ,_ t? I,.),lsthe es to i_
,aenufactures, some step should
t4itjriol,, '.,t_he ,tel2°L! e some relaxation. He (Mr.
teittt4let (ere 't the 1.3 °treacly taken was a very good
I )' i Bts tv I°anufact
kb, tthstece retie now i. users, and he hoped that
Ntltty 4 sititY•el"e the "a
.ye st unething better than
44 41. ;it 14,4,19/ear.)
beirs.tresses that prevailed
P ilk Ltver n thn Du
ing the year that sac-
s Nl,l flee ill - Proteetive duties, there was
itclVilettlies NI), 8 great der English crops, but after-
,h,ithe to daps' sub„"cincY In the barley, oats,
tti th.e144,1..11,4, oebarr jeently the alteration in the
e,N, alien,' would v" the hope that the prices
(op til it, pu lush, u ,
kk, litklitt„. the laws' and i.,
~13 for the loss sustained
lie thitat alb It cause," 'ant instance, therefore,
t. ikise SS e vu great distress among the
1'4p:414.1:44C to ha to all fact to say that the
Itiollts'll itj °f teen°t caused great misery, and he
. led to it, wit on
14 tOrtiltin -
fur
which • •h t
eNs , e sale ,eg B°3' lurth
louNt4llset,Prore .`klere wa al' in
eat 11, ty. 4i,ed
thenBB madeS Something exceedingly
,Tekt - Tied
a; by the landlords, that
ci . gim
,til go .sgstres,
~, it est ti ultlvato
sitkclikii,4%l/4—: atlxti thB,o4q tharts ctilifasttrteshesat time existing in
said thatet the
~1421,?did :told
14.°Wleoecoeretaist of laBnl3°Clitiletddpi proprietors,
0 It a the,,e, quenee of the change in
)*‘ 6'l---'441c1 fly benefit
he asked, create
g uonetit the farmer in one

of two ways, by recommending th*t the remaining
taxes on the land be redeemed, or by having
a greater protection enacted. Now, he asked ,them
whether it was possible to do one: or othee er 'these?
They might as well stay the oneretikins of nature as at-
tempt to do either,:hecaUse protection had reached its
limit; and the L'egislature had, during the past session,
almost already removed all the taxes which pressed upon
the farmer; and the taxes which were wont to go into
the Exchequer, now went into the pockets of the land-
lords, in the shape of rent,—(lleals heti%) They could
do nothing, then, to serve the farmer. They did not,
in consequence, wish to have a Committee of inquiry.
The lion. Member for Falmouth said that the Right
lion. Baronet, in proposing the new Corn Bill, did not
promise the farmers 58s. a quarter. The promise Was a
very guarded one. It wes, that a eertilin price would
be guaranteed by the LegislatUre.' That was, indeed, a
very guarded statement ; but the landlords had been
doing their best to make that expression convey a cer-
tainty of 58s to the farmer. That impression was con-
stantly inculcated by their bailiffs and stewards in the
country, and the opinion was strengthened by their as-
sessing the land to the poor-rate at 565. per quarter.
This system had been continued since 181 t;, when the
law had been passed ; and the landlords ought their
to have told the farmers the degree of power they really
possessed. There was no consistency in the conduct of
the landlords towards their tenants, no affinity between
their acts in that House and their professions in Free-
mason's Hall or in that shop which they had opened in
Bond-street, where they ought to have placed above the
door, " The British farmer regularly taken in and done
or."—(Laughter.) It was time that that imposition en
.he farmer should be ended. If he (Mr. Bright) stood
in the same relation to the people who were employed
by him in Lancashire that they did to the farmer, and if
he came to that House and assented to pass a law to
keep up the price of their labour, which was afterwards
rescinded, he would not again have the face -to say to
those persons that Parliament had the power of keeping
up their wages. And that was exactly what the land-
lords were doing. The lien. Member for Dorset had
explained to the House that the farmer suffered when
the grain crops were large and the prices low, and when
the grass crops were insufficient to feed their cattle.
But did they (the friends of the farmer).never think that
they were putting him to this inconvenience by the duty
they had placed on Indian corn—and Indian corn they
knew was food for cattle—and by the duty on Egyptian
beans, also good food for cattle. - He would tell them
that the law they had made to keep these out injured
the farmer, end assisted to create the distress now
so much complained of. He was not very conversant
with agricultural matters, but that was not absolutely
necessary for the understanding of this question. Be
held a letter in his hand, which appeared in the Wilt-
shire monopoli>t journal, written by Nathaniel Haver-
ton, a man of the very first intelligence, and a farmer,
and he said that he lost by the protective duties at the
rate of Bs. per quarter. it.had hei n >aid that the Lan-
cashire manufit,turers were making fifty per cent. of
profit. lie said that those who made the statement
knew very little about it; but, whatever their profits,
they did not come to Parliament for protection to their
interests. They did not wish to - overeharge their cus-
tomers, as the landlords did-in the matter of 11 est India
sugar. The result of the inquiries instituted by the
members of the Anti-Corn-law League in the counties,
proved that where the agricultural labourer expended
at most 255. a year for himself and family, the manu-
facturing labourer expended three times as much.
It Was well known amongst their supporters that the
Government were most anxious to proceed on the prin-
ciples of free trade. Many and many Conservatives had
spoken to him in exultation, and had said, "Did I not
tell you Sir Robert Peel would do this? And if you free
traders would not be so impatient, he would still go on ;
and as the fears of the agriculturists are dissipated he
will do all that you desire, for he has no interest but that
of the good government of the country." Every one
knew that the Right Hon. Baronet had ambition, fur if
he had not he would not have been where he was. Few
men did anything without ambition. The Right Hon. -
Gentleman knew that the present system was turning
the agricultural population into a population of paupers.
On Monday last he was in Buckinghamshire, and the
first thing that struck him was the number of fields
which he saw covered with ant-hills. So numerous were
they, that it was impossible to find a space sufficiently
large to wield a scythe. That was protected land in the
county of the very man who was especially the farmer's
friencl----Who had taken upon himself, at the Freemasons'
re -
Lavern, to say that there would be no alteration made
at present. The next object that met his (Mr. Bright's)
eye was the multitudinous chimneys of the.union of the
Aylesbury district. The persons that ought .to have
cultivated the land were confined in that house.---(Hear,
hear.) An Hon. Friend of his, who lived in the neigh-
bourhood of Salisbury, and who was a subscriber to the
WiltsProttction Society, had said to him that he would
rather have free trade at once than see the farmers hum-
bugged as they had been by the landlords fur a long
time past. Now he (Mr. Bright) thought it was time
that this state of things should be, put an end to. He
did not call upon them to transfer protection to the
manufacturers, for he believed that their skill and industry
would be a sufficient protection to them. He would not
have wished to have seen a total and immediate repeal
of the corn laws in 1839 and 1840, when the price of
wheat was 70 . or 80s. a quarter, because such a sudden
change would have caused a serious panic amongst the
agricultural interests. But now they had wheat at the
tree trade price. In fact, the price of wheat in the chan-
nel islands, where free trade existed, was 3s. higher than
tee price in this country. They had a 20s. protective
duty here, and yet they were in distress. In 1823,
they had a protection that amounted to actual prohibi-
tion, and yet they had agricultural distress. Such also
was the state of things in 1835 and 1836 ;
(Hear, bear)—and lie believed that if the present
protective system were maintained, the time would come
when, instead of complaints being sent up from the
agricultural counties, on account of her Majesty's
Ministers leaning towards free trade, the com-
plaints would be that they did net go much further. The
population was growing up, and there was no employ-
ment commensurate with their increasing numbers, but
they were competing for the little employment there
was. The amount of wages was about six or seven
shillings a week, and the destitution that existed was a
disgrace to the Legislature and the landowners of the
country. It was going on, and they could not stop it,
and yet they actually made a law to secure themselves
from foreign competition, leaving their defenceless la-
bourers subject to all the evils of that competition which
they had brought upon them. He had no hope of doing
much to convince lion. Members opposite, and the
leaders Of party were seldom convinced ; but he could
assure Hon. Gentlemen opposite. that amongst their
tenantry a feeling of suspicion was springing up—a
feeling which he could not wish to see spread amongst
them were he a landowner. Hon. Gentlemen opposite
had charged the Anti-Corn-law League with increasing
that feeling ; but they had only told them what they
were beginning to discover themselves—that they bad
been deluded by their landlords. They had told them
that the landlords were entitled to their rent, and they
had also told them that the landlords had no right to
raise the value of their property ,by passing a law
to shield themselves from competition with foreign coun-
tries, whilst they diminished the profits of their tenantry
and the wages of their labourers, by forcing them into
competition amongst themselves. That was the charge
which they brought against the agricultural interest, and
it would be reiterated so long as the present system con-
tinued. They need not lay the flattering unction to their
souls that the agitation against the corn-laws would be put
down by prosperous years. He might, if the time of the
house would allow him, enter into particulars, to show
that the agitation, from time to time, went on increasing,
and he could shoe, that such was the feeling in Lanca-
shire at the present moment, if the Council of the League
should think fit to call for it, they might raise almost
any amount of money to carry on the agitation to a suc-
cessful conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite must see that their measures were continually
slipping from their grasp, and a different policy was gra-
dually growing upon them. The present Government,
when they came into office, were looked upon as Conser-
vatives or monopolists; but from that time to this they
had never dared to defend a system of restriction or mo-
nopoly, although they were the very men whom the
monopolist party had plated on the Treasury hench—
men the most distinguished in that whole party, and who
were possessed of as great an amount of knowledge and
statesmanship as any set of men in the country. He
would ask them, then, whether it was worth while to
maintain the present system under such circumstances ?
Let them show a virtue, even if they had it not ; and he
trusted it would now be shown, and let them get rid at
once of this law, which had inflicted such tremendous
evils on this country.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN could not but admire
the tone and moderation of temper which had charac-
terised the addresses of the Hon. Members for Stock-
port and Manchester. He could not, however, say so
much for that of the Hon. Member for Durham, who,
he trusted, would ere long learn that to make a bullying
speech, and to get into a passion was not the way to
deal with the gentry of England. If the Hon. Gentle-
man thought he could set the tenantry of England
against the landlords by such vituperation, and such
abuse, he (Mr. Stafford ('Brien) would tell him dis-
tinctly that he never was more miserably disappointed
in his life. The Hon. Gentleman was now in the seventh
year of his agitation, and the ill success which had at-
tended it m4.ht have taught him to adopt another course.
The Hon. Gentleman could not suppose, that having
been hitherto such a false prophet, any thing he could
now say would be attended to. Some time ago, when
there was distress in the manufacturing districts, the
Hon. Gentleman said, that that distress would never
be removed so long as the protective system
lasted ; but that distress had been removed,
and the protective system still existed. In
conclusion, he could only say, that if the Hon. Gentle-
man would move for the Committee, he (Mr. O'Brien)
would not only not object to it, but would be willing to
serve upon it.
Mr. VILLIERS said the Hon. Gentleman had not
answered a single charge which had betel brought for-
ward by the Hon. Member for Durham. The lion.
Gentleman had made some personal allusions, and that
was all. The Hon. Member for Durham brought one
specific charge against the landowners to which it would
oe well for the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire to
address himself. That charge was, that the landowners
protected themselves from competition while they sub-
jected their labourers to competition amongst them-
selves. The landowners came there to pass a law to pro-
tect themselves against that competition from which
their tenants were suffering. The Hon. Gentleman bad
not addressed himself to that point. He (Mr. Villiers)
could not but remark the difference between the opinions
of the lion. Member for Dorsetshire and the Hon.
Member for Northamptonshire. The Hon. Member for
Dorsetshire said the agricultural distress vras owing to
the late relaxations, whereas the Hon. Member for
Northamptonshire said the country was f:tourishing be-
cause the restrictions were maintained. it was not those
restrictions that bad caused the i rcaptity, but the cowl