The Sun.
London, England, 1826-12-01 00:00:00

DEBTORS.

Mr. HUME said, that he moved last Session for a
Return of the number of persons confined for debt in England,
and seeing the Right Hon. the Under Secretary of State for the
Home Department in the House, he wished to know if that Re-
turn had as yet been made out.
Mr. DAWSON said, that every possible diligence
had been used to comply with the desire of the Hon. Gentleman ;
but it was necessary to consult 500 persons to make out the
Returns.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY had intended to submit a
'motion for a Return of the number of prisoner: confined under
Crown prosecutions, and be conceived that if his motion were in-
cluded in that of the Hon. Member for Montrose, it would save
mud, time and trouble.

Mr. ,DAWSON said, that it would take at least six
mouths to make out the united Returns.
ARMY HALF-PAY.

Mr. HUME ventured to call the attention of the
House to a-eubject relating to what he considered a deviation from
the public service. It would be recollected that, in 1817, the
half-pay was separated from the general accounts of the'current
expenditure. It then amounted to 2,800,000/., and he (Mr.
Hunie) would shew, that it was now greater than at that period.
He would take, as his foundation, an abstract of the return laid
upon the table of the House. His Majesty's Ministers had taken
credit upon that occasion for having reduced the expenditure of
the country within the lowest possible limits. In order to prove,
however, that they had not, he had moved, in the last Parliament,
for Returns, and he would state the result. He would not then
go back to 1817, but oply_to the period when the loan was raised
by Ministers, to provide for that part of the dead weight
relating to the army, which amounted to 2,900,0001. The
Minister bad said, that it was not to be expected, after twenty
years' war, that the country could be without a great half-
pay list; but that it was confidently expected, from the measure
proposed, that there would be a diminution of expenditure to
the amount of 115,000/. per annum. The Honourable Gentle-
man then desired the house to see how it was at present ; and
after stating the various amounts for the intervening period, said,
that, in the fOurth year after that arrangement, the amount was
13,000/. per annum more then in 1822: and that if Ministers
were upheld in not making the proper reductions, he could not an-
ticipate relief for the country. He would ask, if the Finance Com-
mittee of 1815, and the Second Report of that of 1819, had not
anticipated, that, after a period of two years, the half-pa and the
full pay would experience a gradual reduction of from 4i to 5 per
cent. per annum ? However, the amount in 1817 was 647,000/.
while, in 1822, it was 765,0001. although the Finance Committee
had expressed their opinion, that it was to be reduced 5 per cent.
If the House would folldiv up the amounts respectively, they would
find, that, at the present time, in, place of a decrease, tire charge
was increased more than 100,0001. per annum over 1817. He
would then allude to Chelsea Hospital, the charges for which
had increased from 940,0004, in 1817, to 1,270,000/. at pre-
sent. He thought that this increase of pensions must have pro-
ceeded from an extraordinary desire of putting persons off the
half-pay list, because they might not he sightly to look at.
Whether half-pay was to he regarded as a reward for past or for
future services, it was never known, nor thought, that it could
be made a permanent charge upon the country, beyond the life
intermit of the party who enjoyed it. Up to 1825 that had con-
tinued to be the rule, but in, 1825 a general order, of the date of
the 25th April, or 22d May, was issued from the War-office, by
which all officers could sell their half-pay, whose ages did not ex-
ceed sixty years, pravided they had bought their commissions, or
had been twelve years in the service. What was the consequence ?
Four Lieutenant-Colonels and five Majors had sold out, after forty
years service in the army, and out of the number of Captains
there were eleven who had served forty-five years, and others
who were longer : and all those commissions had been sold to
young men. Thus, by this novel order of the Horse Guards,
the country would be charged for 20, 30, or 40 years half-pay.
The annual average of promotions exceeded 600, yet any gentle-
man who thoupt proper to investigate the subject,
that very few, indeed, of those were conferred upon officers taker!,
to 4,393,
diminution might, not
from amongst those on half-pay. In 1822, the number of offic
making a total of 11,280. In 1826, a
on half-pay amounted to 6,887, those on full-pay, would find
unreasonably, be expected yet. so far from that turning out to
be the case, an increase had actually taken place.
increase During the last
seven years, there had been an in • the aggregate number of
officers of 219. The Hon. Gent. then went througti a variety of
cares where parties bpd been permitted to sell their half-pay to persons.
retirement of forty-
as t had previously
likely to enjoy it for quite as many Y""
Amonigostboaathebers, he men-
been
to Cunningiuun'ij
fotr forty-five tione(Hilnottl,ittehttew!apesenostoseyf:G:oeenneorfalthq sel
lieutenant,
a captain, and a major, all
e
P afimvoyer more. eta.
rs
Major:t one
Anodise
Claveringofficer
'eearafwtri t'sa,3rs:ali fortyiek soldafter
ltyioeyitiloe: aaeratilsf9toet:ll did tiro usame.n h Major
t-
Mac
was iain ensign,h ever served ; he was on half-pay since
in one year. "e
the year 1798, yet he half-
lacy. allowed to sell his half pay. In making
these observatimoo, he thought it but justice to say, that in making
these promotions, there had been no undue preference sheen to
tire friends of ;he Hon. Members at either side. He complained i
too of the regulations relating to the sale of Brevet ranks, and the I

permission granted of purchasing actual regimental rank,itlenle
iliately above the Brevet rank previously held by the purchaser.—
He then moved for returns of all the officers who had been per-
mitted to sell their full-pay, half-pay, and Brevet commissions,
since the last return in March ; also a return of the money paid
and received for the same, distinguishing thPse on full from those
on half-pay, specifying the names of the Regiments; stating when
the parties were first commissioned, and when placetl'upon half-
pay ; also stating those who have been transferred from the half
to the full-pay establishment ; together with the number and
names of those who had purchased on the half and full-pay, when
they had obtained their commissions, and their length of service
at home and abroad. The returns to be brought down to the
31st of,March inclusive. Also a return 'of officers holding a
Brevet rank. higher than their regimental rank. .
Lord PALMERSTON said, that in replying to
what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman, he must beg leave to
remind the House of the circurastances which had led to the re-
gulations of which they had just heard such heavy complaints.
When we had been so deeply involved in a war on so large a
scale, and our army had been so very extensive in all its branches,
it became absolutely necessary that we should- have a very large
and expensive half-pay establishment. Our half-pay had been
made only proportionate to the former extent of the military set-
vice. Now the half-pay establishnient being onee fixed, he SW
but two ways by which it could be diminished. The one was by',
the deaths of those who were on the half-pay list ; and the other
11 was by removing them into active service, or putting them on full
pay. He begged the Hon. Gentleman to reflect, that the half-
, pay list was, to a great extent, filled by persons not altogether
eligible to be put upon full pay. Many half-pay officers were by
no means desirous ofrestiming active service. They were, on the con-
trary, much averse to it from family mei nomerous other circum-
stances. Many were not fit to be put upon full pay; and they were, in
the fullest sense of the word, a dead weight upon the public.—One
object of this regulation had been, to enable individuals, under
certain circumstances, to sell or dispose of their annuity, or half-
pay, in order that half-pay might be taken by persons efficient
and capable of being put upon the full-pay list. This was the
~
very case put by the Honourable Member for Aberdeen ; and, a 0 •
far from this regplatitm being acted upon improperly, it had fully
accomplished one of the advantages which it was intended to pro- ,
duce. The Honourable Gentleman had complained; that persona :.
of family had been able to purchase promotion more rapidly than
they would have been able to obtain it under a system of regular
routine. He did not dispute the fact ; but so far from cousider-
binegnetfihti.s a
He tnnteavliiyl, Itrawerased convinced that thpartinicti was substantially .
which
sen thei array. Unless
sofar persons Honourable Gentleman had founded his olsseprlveatoionn able
country he thought it desirable to connect the highest classes of
in military rank more speedily than by seniority, they would not
society
enteret y
the with
oninstlolifstshysis
in the army, it was liked and approved of by the officers at
large. He would maintain that the promotions made
y
the Royal Duke at the head of the army were impartial.
The Honourable Gentleman had maintained, that the Com-
mander-is-Chief ought to be compelled to fill up E"lgn-
tdemescription advanced
cies in regiments from the half-pay list. If such a regu-
lation
wthoeuldllosnoo.
countryperbarm
Ensigns themselves would consider it a most grievous puniehnient
to be compelled to resign`their half pay, and to enter upon full
service. The Half-pay Officers had retired upon certain prin-
ciples, tacitly acknowledged, and which could not be violated
either with justice or with benefit to the public. What officer
would thank you to bring hiM back from half to full pay, it, at
the same time, you told him, that whatever were his merits--
however eminent his services—or whatever might be the coo
tingencies of the regiment—it was utterly impossible for him t°
rise in rank, until all the Half-pay List had been drained and
exhausted? The other regulations to which the Honourable
Gentleman objected, stood precisely on the same principle.
The House must understand the difference between Brevet and
o
regimental rank, to comprehend the proposition of the Hon. Gel'
soon
Gentlemanfinits army
was tnl he
tb be awMamimirendstt:beiyt, jewntffighaseeti,lenntitilbaspiftfni.ripetleauere;
tlemaa. In the first place, officers rose more rapidly by brevet
than by regimental rank. 11e did not know whether the Hoot:
generally understood that a great many Officers held brevet rank
higher than their regimental rank, and to those it was inconve-
nient to do duty with their regiments. It bad therefore bee,'.!
deemed adviseable to propose that such officers should go on half
pay on an unattachable commission, one step higher than that of
the commission whtch they had held in their regiment, and they
were moreover allowed to dispose of their half-pays The lieu.
Member should be reminded that since last March, no less 1. .utra
for
old than 44,230/. had been paid to the public on this account for
commissions. The seller of the commission received the J
price, and the difference was paid to the Puldi,e'„nid to the
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that
gemulaotninotneipi rmice2sfr,o2isn9tlLie purchaser, who wmleiokingpai6d2:ooheot:.‘ervybuilsatlil
•
use of the public service.
out topic
analogous to the subject of debate, upon
14"
heat of one
his opinion to the House. Ile alluded to thepractice
n their efforts
mending Officers imposing expenses on the country lA.
to the el.
to produce a finer appearance in their regimente.
assertion t•at gentle- ,
ercise of atronage in the army, and to the
his
unhappy
men whop ook that side in politics which it had
that patronage,
lot to take were made very unequal partakers of
to the very lull's!'"
he could bear the most unequivocal testimony •
&ministered the
tial manner in which his Royal Highness had a
patronage of the army.
he belie%
,ed
Sir RONALD FERGUSSON said,
de department
there was
sd
to
offer
that no public officer had ever been placed in high
with
more
who had administered its duties more impartially and itt

integrity than his .Royal Highness.
Sir C. COLE said, that it had been his lot often
to point out to the Admiralty the cases of Naval Officers,
whoyr
be
sole claims upon the country were their public services.
wit
could assure the House that such individuals bad always met h
their rewards, whenever a substantial case of merit could be made
out in their favour.
General GASCOYNE said, that an instance had
fallen under his knowledge of a juuior officer of a regiment being
of the age of sixty-one. To fill up the full-pay Cominieli°9ll)}fr
half-pay Officers were insufficient. Hal pay Officers from the half-pay, would be impossible ; the number
of economy,. it was a question of utility. The pr'esent eult.
ti"!,, of which the Hon. Member for Aberdeen complained,
w" not It question

highly beneficial to the army.
Uyon the SPEAKER putting the question,
vations upon what had fallen from the Gallant
Mr. HUME said he would make but a few obser-.
just addresied the House. That Gallant Officer had encleavourea
to show that one of his (Mr. Ilume's) notions was absurd, rela-
tive to appointments of junior officers from half-paY to furtr, '
a''
by stating that he had personally known an instance d au ....''ll..
of forty years' service, and whoa.' age was sixty-Due. Thiiiodoe
0,
ample, unfortunately for the Gallant Officer, did not inkvale fur.
which o t
but, on the contrary, it corr h tedthe vita'
0 0111 General who had

Gs Hume)iernhecar da.itaFGlce,oAnitosfßcihEoe
ssyubNejeexEpt.
reessexpldainetost
sincere wish
that the promotion which bad -been given to the army sho"id as
speedily and as effectually as possible be extended to the navy'
understood to
An Honourable MEMBER, who was un
be a naval officer, observed, that he bad always found the Atir",6id-
ralty most ready to attend to every case which was recommeou.
_

for and deserved pon.
The motion was thenromoti agreed to, as were the following Ratnit*
moved for by the same Honourable Member :
" A Return of all Officers who have purchaeed the said Colir
long n im i
they u,
first Commissions in the Army as Ensign or Cornet ;
they purchased any and how many of their Commissione, were"oForeign Service, and how long—as far at the same can be cum-
Foreign
with, since the Returns to this House, dated the 91st 0
March, 1526." have
A Return of all Officers holding Brevet Rank, who
been allowed, under the General Order of the 25th of API"'
1827, to retire upon unattached Commissions, or half-PaY, °
selPerveedifYiinngeatchheißar unakn:es, and when ad their
and whether they ever on •
the effective rank above what they held regimentally meting
their names and rank, when they obtained their first Comm'r.,
siert al Ensign or Cornet, and in what corps ; and when s'
lowed to retire ; whether they purchased any, and how manY
of their Commissions, and how. long they served in each rank. ;
and whether since retiring on half-pay they have been I°
or,
brought on the strength of the Army, and in what regiment
corps."
Fuil‘-paAcyc4antindt
Half-payof the 5031Omnenylisirleived fro
he
under
the 2tl of May, 1825, and the 25th of April, 1826 ; and the war
in which the same has been or is to be appropriated."
MR. BROADEN.
The SPEAKER having called upon Sir H. Par-
nen to proceed with the motion of which he had given notice re-
lative to the quantity of Foreign Goods imported, &C. &c'--The
Hon. Bart. was about to address the House, when
ttn the
Generalsaie oOfler td
Orders of
Mr. BROGDEN begged to-be allowed to ofrer
few observations. A charge had been held out against him, au
he had expressed his most anxious wish that the 'Worthy OW

R

rni
thi

IL

ii

I(

hie
the
but
(H

Alc tl
requi
%troy
Ti

I),
frebh

ti,i,
w
1141
inn.,

tri pi
LA
1%41
kink
(144,

yr)
14 2

(Waithman) would take .the earliest opportunity of bringing
harge forward. —( Hear, - hear. )
k Alderman WAITHM.AN addressed the
in a low tone ; we undit•stood him to commence by saying
se was
placed
in a most trying situation. It was certainly
Notion, when he first heard that the Honourable Gentleman
o be proposed as Chairman of Committees of Ways and
5, to propose certain inquiries relative to the Arigna Compa-
id other Companies of. which that Honourable Gentleman
eeo a Chairman or Director. Since that period he found
he Honourable Gentleman had declined the office which he
aniesly filled,-and therefore he (Mr. Waithman) felt that
were "other Honourable Members connected with Companies
lie affairs of which it would be also necessary to inquire. He
ore stated, that he should, at the earliest possible period after
rees,.bringforward his motion.
[r: BR OGDEN, though out of order, hoped the
would indulge him for a few moments. He had been given
lerstand by the Worthy Alderman, that he should postpone
;that midl after the holidays. He entreated—he implored
urthy Alderman—to afford him the earliest opportunity of re-
g the calumnieS which hard been put forth against him.—
, hear.)

. _
r. •Aldermpu WAITI-IMAN maintained that he
lost ready to bring forward his Motion, and that he had
ieen induced to delay it until after the holidays, by repre-
ions from Honourable Members over the way. -The Hon.
rnan was proceeding to call the attention of the House to
took place ulion the South Sea Bubble of 1720, when
r. C, W. WYNNE, •e to order--they were
roi
entering into the merits of a most important question with-
ving any specific Motion before the House...--(Order, order. )
e the discussion dropped. •

IMPORTATION DUTIES.
1-1, PARNELL complained. of the very high
duties still kept up on imported goods. He observed, that
course of the last year the Right Hon. Gentleman had made
cry strong statements of the evils occasioned by these high
declaring that they decreased the Revenue instead of add-
its amount, and very properly describing Olen) as premiums
diocrity in every article of manufacture. In these statements
gad with the Right HOn. Gentleman, and believed that high
on imported articles not only deereased 'the amount of the
Revenue, but Were detrimental to the commerce of the
y. The Hon.-Baronet conCluded by moving that there be
ed and laid beforethe House, as early as might be conve-
a list of articles imported froM foreign countries in the years
►ad 1826, together with a statement of the rate of duties
e on eachof these articles.
WARBURTON, in rising to ,second this
Was convinced the more a person was acquainted with the
of the importation of foreign articles into 'this country, the
could he be convinced that the system of-free trade, so ably
ted by the Right Hon. Gentleman, had been very imper-'
auks' into effect. He applauded those •p►inciples of free
fhich the Right Hon. Gentleman had advocated, but which
seemed to have been sufficiently put into practice. He did
eve, however, that the fault lay entirely with the Right
ientleman, 1. bo, he trusted, would not suffer his measures
ittered away by the interested representations,of Gentlemen
nmediately connected with the trade which it was supposed
Light affect.

HUSKISSON said, that as he certainly did
the least wish to object to thy statement for which the
laronet had called, and as he did not think this the fittest
to enter into the subject of the Importation Duties, espe-
the present thin state of the House, he should make but
nervations on the question. He was of opinion that the
riuciples which regulated, or which ought to regulate,
nmereial policy of this and of other countries, required
solemn discussion and more consideration than could be
o them at the present moment. Perhaps he might
allowed to observe, that a great difference of opinion
to exist among the impugners of the measures which
the honour of advocating. Perhaps he might be per-
to say, that those who out of doors clamoured loudly
these measures as injurious to the trade of this country,
ruled their clamour upon the speeches of Gentlemen op-
some of whom now complained of these very measures
ding sufficiently strong—( Hear, hear.) On the one hand,
,as the complaint that too much had been done for free
while, on the other, there was an equally loud assertion,
144 had been done—(Hear, hear). He should not now
discriminate between such conflicting extremes of opi-
(Hear, hear). However, he could not hut wonder, that
entlemen within the House asserted that the principles of
le had not been carried far enough, there should be others
le House perseveriv in their attempts to direct the oppo-
' the misinformed towards *hose measures which, he could
eclare, had, in no degree contributed to the distress lately
,ced iu this country—(Hear, hear).
Alderman THOMPSON thought, that the
Was highly indebted to the Right Hon. Gentleman- for
ral course which he had hitherto pursued.
onel TORRENS protested against the princi-
Britivh manufacturers wanted any protection. All they
I was, that their energies should not be oppressed and de-
by enormous and unnecessary burthens.

motion was then agreed to.
report of the Committee of Supply- was brought up and
in and second time, and agreed to.
HUSKISSON, in rising to move that the
10 resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House on
Importation Indemnity Bill, gave notice, that to-morrow
,h 1 move to rescind a certain Order made on Tuesday last,
notion of the Honourable Member for Norfolk, for a
of returns relating to the quantity of grain imported into
nary from the Continent since 174.8, and from Ireland
WO.

"ouse then went into a Committee on the Oats' Importa-
lemnity Bill.
n' a few words from Mr. HUME and Mr.
[SSON, the Bill was ordered to be reported with Amend-

Rouse then resumed, and the report was ordered to be
up t6-morrow (this day.)
Rouse-adjourned at a Quarter after Eight.

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE.

LLOYD'S.—(Tuts DAv.)
Nov. SO.—The wind throughout the day has blown
'quells from the southward and westward, with rain.
811°Init Nov. SO.—Wind W. and N. W.—Put back the
Cott, Thornhill, for Madras and Bengal, which got on
the Middle Bank last night coming in with the flood-
(' is now at the Motherbank.
tooilt, Nov. 29.—Wind W.—Arrived thcllope, Blundell,
Pluilunia, and Sandwich brig, Lanes, front Newfoundland.
rooxo, Nov. 29.—Wind W. to. S.W.—Sailed the Dove
Porster, for Buenos Ayres.
'Pool., Nov. 29.—Arrived the Isabella, Newell, from New
Pa •
vortte, Richards, from Newfoundland; Laurence, Sev•
cnn St. John's; Worrell, Thomas, from Leghorn ; Han-
corkindate, from St. Petersbur It Off the port the Leeds,
from New 'Y
""k• sailed Nov. 8. Sailed the Alice, Pose-
n Luna' Eliza
la. Arrived the•P.tiu s? for Africa; and Venus, Forbes, for
shore near Wallitsae'fie'Clwan' y• from Hamburgh, after
rESKNI), Nov. SO.—Arrived th
hada, Jones, and British Merchant, Und",
• v Mary, from Ma-
Scott, from Trieste;
Equity, inSt4tul'atStephen,
Georgefro Canning,pena ?et•iclea, Patterson, and Brothers,
;S iled the Carolina,
Elizabeth and John, from Hayti. from Que-
ll, for Bencoolen; Lieven, for Jamaica Mai Shedd,
bay ; and Harbinger, Champion, for Gibraltar
ONDIERRY, Nov. 26.—The Juno has arrived here, with
tp-gallant mast and canthers, &c. The master thinks the
damaged.
lartley, from Riga, is reported to be in the River dismast-
ate weather is very bad.
owntanv, Nov. 27.—The Marquis of Coningham, from
to Dunfanaqiiy, is on shore about seven miles west of
gle, but expected to be got off.—Crew saved.
rnuavtnt Nov. 29.—The' Rock, Tyson, and the Active,
rota Dublin, which were driven upon the beach the 24th
ye been got off, with considerable damage.
1•414c1c, Nov. 28.—The Adventure, M'Donald, of and
vernetts to Glasgow, was driven on the rocks near Easdale
'Y. The crew saved.
Nov. 27..—A brig of from 150 to 200 tons, light
with yellow sides and black above, supposed to he British,
tr Largo Bay, on Saturday.
luod Intent, Hopper, from Bilboa to Malaga, was aban-
le lath ult. off St. Andrew. Crew saved.
Jherub, Hughson,lrom St. John's, New BrunswiCk, to
Irk, ran on shore, 30th Oct., near Long Island. Crew
I,augers saved,
etrterluo, front Demerara, is supposed to be arrived in the
„ers being received marked briter.
I,lantaitt from Bristol to Sierra Leone, was spoken on
ept• in lat. 17. long. 23.