The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-03 00:00:00

TUE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORgING, APRIL 3 1845.

---- -
the Bill ; but he thought there would be great difficulty
in carrying, its enactments into effect.
Lord JOIIN RUSSELL thought, that after tl.e
expression of a hope by the Noble Lord at the
head of the Woods and Forests, it would have
been better had this measure been deferred
until after the introduction of the Health of Towns Bill.
He should, under these circumstances, vote against the
second reading of this Bill ; at the same time he gave
every credit to the Honourable Gentleman for the ex-
cellence of his intention, and for the pa'ns
he had taken in the details of the measure. He granted
that a great nuisance existed, but he did not agree in the
particular mode of remedy advocated by the Honourable
Gent etnan.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that the details of the Bill
might be greatly modified and improved. In that case, he
hoped that the lion. Member would not press for the
second reading of the Bill. He should remark that there
were chimneys belonging to certain inanuictories
in
Manchester, where there was a strong feeling on this
subject, from which there was no more' smoke than from
a private dwelling-houso. There was no doubt that great
attention wont f be paid to the correction of the Bill by
the Select Committee.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that no one could be more
competent to make a suggestion on the matter than the
impossible
to Gentleman who had just spoken. It was
to make any rule with rep et to the suppression of a
general nuisance which would not create some local nui-
sances. The Select Committee would consider whe-
ther the paivisions of this Bill could be safely
adopted. He was 'l-cry certain that the time
of the C, mmittee would not be lost. Under-
standing that the Bill was not to to pressed until
the measure for improving the sanitary condition of
large towns was before the House, he thought there
could be no objection to the second reading, and refer-
ring the Bill to the consideration of a Select Commitiee.
Mr. HAWES was perfectly satisfied with the course
proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, but he
should like to know whether the Committee would
have power to take evidence upon certain points of the
Bill ?
Mr. RICARDO reminded the Hon. Member for
Lambeth that the Government were going to introduce
a Bill affecting the same subject, and it would be there--
fore all labour lost to make any inquiry into the nature of
this Bill. For his part, he would rather the matter should
rest with th.e Government, entrusted to the hands of a
Committee. There were two parties affected by this
Bill. The one was the party who was annoyed by
smoke; the c ther, was the party who lived by smoke. Now
he could only say, on the part of his constituents, that
they would have to give up business altogether if they
were not allowed to smoke. They NI/Ere now in a state
of uncertainty, and there was no doubt they would re-
main so until the intentions and measure of the Govern-
ment on this subject were before the Howe.
Mr. WILLIAMS said a few words, after which
Mr. MACKINNON said he wished to say a few words
in explanation. It should be recollected that a Com-
mittee of that House reported that the nuisance of smoke
could and ought to be prevented; and added, that if the
Government did not take up the matter with a view to
legislation, some individual Member ought. Was not
that recommendation worthy of regard? He had merely
followed the recommendation of the Committee.
The Right Hon. Member for Taunton had accused him
of putting himself forward on this occasion, when the
matter might better be left in the hands of the Govern-
ment. But in fact, he had done nothing more than act
upon the instructions of the Committee. If the Noble
Lord (Lord Lincoln) did not feel inclined to proceed
with his measure he (Mr. Mackinnon) should proceed
with the present Bill, but not otherwise.
The amendment was then withdrawn ; the Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a Select

Committee.
INFEFTMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE postponed the second
reading of this Bill till this day week.
HERITABLE JURISDICTIONS (SCOTLAND)
BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
CALICO PRINT WORKS.
Mr. M. GIBSON, having inquired whether it was the
intention to proceed with Lord Ashley's Bill for the
regulation of calico print works, presented five petitions
from various manufacturing places against any restric-
tion of their labour.
Mr. HAWES presented petitions from West Ham, in
Essex, and other places, to the same effect.
Lord ASHLEY presented a petition from 500 opera-
tives at Crayford, in Kent, expressing their desire that
the measure should pass into law, suggesting some
amendments ; and stating their wish that even a modi-
fied measure should be passed, rather than that the Bill
should be altogether lost.
On the motion that the Bill be read a second time,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that when the Noble Lord
first brought the measure before the House he deemed
it his duty to give it his most earnest and anxious con-
sideration. He believed the Bill was introduced on the
12th of March—(Laughter)—and with a view to the
discussion which must certainly arise on the second
reading, he had endeavoured, with the assistance
of his colleagues in the Government, to institute
such inquiries as should place them in the posses-
sion of the fullest information respecting every
portion of its details that it was possible to obtain.
F. investigations
purpose he had made it his business to extend
his to every part of the manufacturing dis-
tricts of the United Kingdom. The House was aware
that the factory inspectors had certain districts assigned
them, in which they had respectively appointed sub-in-
spectors. It was the business of these sub-inspectors
to place themselves in personal communication
with the individuals most looked up to among the indus-
trial classes. Into the hands of every one of these
sub-inspectors a copy of the Bill had been placed,
with instructions to ascertain the effects its clauses were
likely to hare on the manufacturing community; and since
the first reading, on March 12, he had assembled these
factory inspectors, and a portion of the sub-inspectors in
London, in order to get the most precise infor-
mation, and the fullest information which through their
inquiries had been obtained. He bad given to the Bill
itself, and to the information which he had received, his
most earnest attention. As he had stated to the House
at the time this Bill was introduced, and as he stated
now, it was his most anxious desire to give his full acce-
dence to the measure of the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley),
and it was a sewn of duty alone which restrained him
from giving his support to the object of the Noble Lord.
and been received,
inquiries
whicha toh atdh e
determined information which
himself
d
He would further state what had been the resuhlitsofctohle_
leagues as to the course which they intended to
pursue with respect to this Bill. If he assented
to the second reading of the
Bill, .he begged
it to be distinctly understood that neither himself
uor the Government would consider themselves for one
moment as pledged to all the details of the enact-
ments proposed by the Noble Lord,
.many of which
it would be his painful duty, but still his duty, to
resist. He was bound to say that there were many pro-
visions in that Bill to which he could not assent, but still
he was not prepared on the part of the Government to
deny that some regulation respecting the employment
of children and females in- print-works was necessary ;
and, admitting that necessity, he could not oppose the
second reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) When as-
senting to the principle of a Bill on but second reading,
It was not usual to go into details, wh
i he recol
lected the importance of the interests involved, he
thought it was right that he should state to the House
what were the provisions of the Bill to which he ob-
jected, and what were the amendments whi▪
ch he, in
Committee, intended to suggest as preferable to the pro.
visions proposed by the Noble Lord. In the first place,
he objected to the great extension of the objects of the
Bill, which was apparent from comparing. the interpreta-
tion clause with the title. The extension which must
take place in consequence of the constructi▪
on which
Bill,
must be put upon the first clause of the he had the
ly
most insuperable objection to. The ti▪ tle of the Bill
referred on to the labour of children em-
ployed in calico print-works, but by the inter-
pretation clause the operation of the measure was
extended far beyond print works. By that clause the
provisions of the Bill were extended to all mills, or
d .se-
parate houses where dying, bleaching, or calenarmg
was carried on. If this was grounded on analogy with
the Factory Bill it would be found than no analogy
existed between them. In factories the labour was de-
pendant altogether on machinery which might be stopped
at any fixed hour. But the converse of the fact applied
to the subject at present under discussion ; it was un-
connected with machinery and depended almost entirely
upon the state of the atmosphere. He was bound fur-
ther to state that it appeared, as far as his inquiries ex-
tended, although in print-works children were exten-
sively employed, yet that in dying, bleaching and calen-
daring, the number of children employed was very few.
His
dying mauue?,
firstßiil objectiond print-works to bleaching grounds,factori and calendaring works.
was to extending the provisions of
this
There were peculiarities connected wi▪
th those works,
which he had specified at considerable length on former
occasions ; and one of the most painful circumstances
connected with the trade, was that the demand, and
consequently the labour, was not continuous throughout
the year. There was a very great demand for labour
at certain periods, while at other periods there was a
reat falling off. The trade, during the spring and
autumn, gave employment to an increased number of
workers, and demanded an extension of the hours of
labour ; but after that period the demand relaxed, and
many of those workers "ere, comparatively speaking,
unemployed. During this period c
!)- the time, every-
thing depended on the work being executed with
the greatest possible dispatch. Everything, in
fact, was secondary to the promptitude with
which the market was supplied ; and he so far
therefore disagreed with the Bill of the Noble Lord, that
its provisions did not meet these peculiar circumstances.
He was not, therefore, prepared to assent to that part
of the Bill which enacted that children should only work
eight hours each day, or on alternate days twelve hours.
Having stated his objections to the 13111 of the Noble
Lord, he should now refer to those provisions, after the
second reading, to which be would be ready to assent.
He would say, on the part of the Government and for
himself, that they were quite prepared to accede to that
part of the Noble Lerd's measure which restricted the
hours of labour of children under eight years of age.
He agreed to the provision of the Bill which proposed to
do away night-work by children, because the same
principle bad been more than once affirmed by the House
in reference to females. In the Act of last session the
House thought it right to regulate the night labour of
females in factories, and he was therefore now prepared to
agree to that part of the Bi which provided that hilden
between the ages of eightll
and thirteen should notr be
employed in calico factories at night. It now became ne-
cessary for him to make allusion to the Noble Lord's
definition of a night. The Noble Lord proposed to
establish a double definition, vat, ing in winter and
summer ; but, , upon the whole, he (Sir J. Graham) was
inclined to thinkit would be better to have only a single
definition of the night.----(Hear, hear.) He would, how-

ever, assent to that part of the Bill which proposed to
allow children to work during the sweeper months from
nine in the morning till niee, because in that time there
was generally no necessity for artificial light. It hap-
pened that in the slack time of the year, when the chil-
dren employed at this business were more at liberty, the
schools fer the education of the children belonging to
that class were generally shut. Depending upon the
experience which he had had, he would offer a sugges-
tion to the House that, as in the case of the other fac-
tories, they ought to make provisions for the education
of the children, there were circumstances which called
forth for provisions of the same nature. For tour months
out of the twelve they could very safely afford seine
education to the children. The arrangements which he
would propose was, that for one hundred days
in the year, about one-third of the whole year, the chil-
dren employed in these factories who had not attained
the age of thirteen years, should attend a school insti-
tutedfor the purpose, for three or four hours in the day.
ITe thought that this would be found applicable, and it'
adopted would turn out as he had hoped; the Noble Lord
( Lord Ashley) te (erred, and with great accuracy, to the
fact that in America the course now suggested to the
House was adopt: d ; during that part of the year in
which thi re was a slackness of business, there was a por.
tioe of the day appropriated for the education of the fac.
tory children. The same system was adopted in Aus-
tria. lie hoped the House would see the necessity of
the education of these children ; and he would state to
the Noble Lord that, if the House should be of opinion
that such a reformation as he had suggested should be
adopted, it would be very advantageous that the Bill
should be made a substantial measure. The Bill, as it
now stood, had reference to many other matters to
which he would not now allude, for he did not think
them objectionable ; but if it should be adopted with the
amendments suggested, he did think it would prove very
advantageous, and make the future regulation of the
trade perfect in all its parts, as far as the calico printing
trade was affocted, without affecting the regulations of
any other branches of the trade.—(Hear.) The
Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) having paid much aeten-
tion to this subject, he might be prepared to
go much further in proposing modifications, that he
(Sir J. Graham) was not acquainted with ; but, on the
whole he hoped the Noble Lord would consent to
limit himself to the boundary he (Sir J. Graham) had
proposed, and when they went into Committee upon it,
he would give it any assistance in his power, so as to
enable it to go through the third reading at as early a
period as possible, so as to bring it to bear with effect
with the least possible delay. With these considerations
he begged to say, he should give the Bill his assist-
ance.— (Cheers.)
Lord ASHLEY said he was yesterday made ac-
quainted with his Right lion. Friend's intentions in
respect to this Bill, and therefore he could not say
that the course now announced by his Right Hon.
Friend had taken him by surprise. He looked upon
the result of the amendment to be, to a certain ex-
tent, disadvantageous. For instance, the Bill did not
go to the extent he wished in reference to the bleaching,
dying, and calendering branches, which were in some
measure connected with calico printing. The next ad-
vantage he lost was the protection to children under
thirteen years of age for a limit to labour ; and though
they would be protected from night work, still they would
be liable to be compelled to work sixteen hours in the
day time. The Bill now proposed a protection to
children at and under eight years of age, by which
they as well as females of all ages were excepted
from night work. He should admit also, that he
would gain a great many other advantages by the
concessions of his Right Hon. Friend ; for instance, he
(Lord Ashley) would be spared the necessity of wearying
the House by long and fruitless divisions, and he would
also have the benefit of the approval and co-operation
of many great proprietors and capitalists.—(Hear, hear.)
This he conceived to be a great advantage, for any. law
carried in opposition to them, could be rendered either
ineffectual or exceedingly vexatious.—(Hear, hear.)
Therefore, although he would reserve his opinion for a
future occasion, yet he would say he received with
thanks the offers now made ; and he was delighted to
find that many of those heretofore opposed to him, were
now about to-co-operate with him.—(Hear, hear.) He
would accept of the offer which the Government had
made, and he did it with satisfaction and delight, because
he hailed it as the commencement of a grand co-opera-
tion on the part of all employers—for one great and
grand effort for the improvement and protection of the
working classes of the British empire.
Mr. M. GIBSON said it was a matter of fact, that at
present a great number of the calico printers did not
take children under the age of eight years into their
employment, and did not suffer children to work at
night. It was a matter of great doubt whether they
should legislate, where there seemed to be a disposition,
on the part of individuals, to perform what legislation
could but imperfectly accomplish. In reference to that
part of the proposition which referred to education, he
thought it overlooked one most important considera-
tion—it was designed to educate the children
during the " slack," or the times when they
were unemployed ; but these were precisely the
periods when the masters had no control whatever over
them, and could not, therefore, be held responsible. If
they proposed to raise the character of the labouring
classes at large they should look to the agricultural dis-
tricts, which sent an almost continual stream of labour-
ers into the manufacturing districts. This labour
coming from a poisoned source was identified with that
which naturally belonged to the manufacturing districts.
Until they directed their attention to the moral training
of the whole population he contended they would not
effect any great practical good, if any good at all. The
Noble Lord did not define what he meant by " work,"
which was necessary, for a person might be in a print-
work for many hours, but it did not follow that during
all that time he was employed in work injurious to
health. The question was whether the amount of work
usually performed there was so injurious to health as to
call for Parliamentary interference in order that its du-
ration might be lessened. Until somebody showed that
the whole existence and condition of the factory la-
bourer would be benefited by the diminution of the
hours of toil, nothing was proved. The true way to im-
prove that condition would be to cheapen the price of the
necessaries of life, so that by working a fewer
number of hours he could purchase as much food as at
present. It was not fair to diminish the poor man's
fund, even though motives of philanthropy were the
assigned cause. Why could not the Legislature compel
the farmer to require the children whom he employed to
produce a certificate that they had been so many hours at
school as well as the manufacturer? If it was right in
one case it was equally right and proper in the other.—
(Hear, hear.) This was done by the farmers in Ireland.
It was rather hard upon the capitalists and employers in
the manufacturing districts that when they were im-
proving the moral condition of the people around them
they were compelled to submit to legislative regulations
for the hours of labour and for education, whilst at the
same time people utterly uncultured, who had not
the advantage of any moral training, were con-
stantly poured in upon them, and the odium of their
unlettered condition thrown upon those employers.
They should at once proceed to deal with the agricul-
tural districts, and he called upon the Noble Lord to
attend to the moral training of the poor in Dorsetshire.
Mr. Horner, the factory inspector, in a pamphlet pub-
lished three years ago, recommended that a general plan
of education and moral training should be adopted
throughout the country. There should be no further
delay in the adoption of this principle. After what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, he did not think it ne-
cessary to make further observations at present, but
would reserve his opinions until the details of the mea-
sure were brought before the House.
Mr. COWPER wished to see the same principle ap-
plied to the manufacturing as to the agricultural dis-
tricts, but thought their condition differed a good deal.
The same class of persons were not unemployed in the
one as in the other—none so young were employed in
agriculture as those commonly employed in manufactures.
He liked the principle of giving leisure to the labouring
classes, and was glad to see that principle was gradually
gaining ground. He felt entirely satisfied at the course
pursued by the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was most
desirable that there should be as much unanimity as
possible on a question like the present ; and he thought
they should advance gradually with public opinion in
changes of this important nature.
Mr. HUME said that he did not see the necessity of
inttrfering with the use of labour at all, but that if they
did interfere to any extent, they ought to interfere with
every class in the community. Let the children of all
classes be cared for equally, and he would not find fault
with a well-intentioned but erroneous object. He did
not believe that the children in manufacturing districts
were at all worse off than those in the agricultural dis-
tricts. He had himself seen, during the late inclement
weather, in several parts of the country, children exposed
to all the severity of frost and snow, for the day to-
gether, in the care of farming produce, and engaged in
keeping birds from the land, and these were children
whose tenderness of years was such that he was con-
vinced they were more in need of the care of the Noble
Lord than the children in the manufacturing districts.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. M.
Gibson) had stated that children under fourteen years
were never employed by manufacturers in his district.
Mr. M. GIBSON—Eight years, not fourteen.
Mr. HUME—WeII, under eight years then. Now, if
the condition of these children was to be complained of,
what did the cause of complaint arise from ? Why,
from this—that they were the introductions from the
agricultural districts, and brought up in such a state of
deplorable ignorance that they
.were subjected to all the
evil influences of the vice and immorality of large com-
munities. What he wished for was, that some compre-
hensive measure should be introduced by the Govern-
ment, which should embrace every class of the commu-
nity ; and what he did complain of was, that with a
profession of the greatest philanthropy, the Government
were suffering a new generation to rise in ignorance and
vice. He thought it was the duty of Government to
provide
a sufficiency of education for every class in the
country ; and he did consider them deeply responsible
for all the evils which arose from the neglect of which
they were guilty. The Noble Lord who had introduced
this measure made a pretence to a degi ee of feeling for the
lower classes which, lie was sorry to say, was but little
borne out by the acts of the Noble Lord, and those who
acted with him. They professed that the people were
overworked, and yet on every occasion they voted for
measures to keep food dear, and thus compelled the over-
work of which they. complained. This was only a mea-
sure intended to interfere with commerce, and he
thought that the better plan was to leave commerce alone,
but if it was to be interfered with, let it be done by Par-
liament, and in a direct manner. The business which
the House had now to do was to diffuse education, and
not act so as to prevent the exhibition of those natural
ties which all over the world proved the best protection
for children, and, in his opinion, by attempting to make
food dear they destroyed, or at least largely marred, that
natural affection which all parents were disposed to show
to their children. They kept food up as high as possible.
They tried to keep wheat at 80s,, then at 603., then at