The Sun.
London, England, 1821-01-24 00:00:00

THE QUEEN.

Lord' A. HAMILiONiaYe notice for Friday of a
motion relative-to the omission of her Majesty's
name froni the- Liturgy:
Mr. WETHERELL" said, that he intended to say
a le w •words upon the motion of the Noble Lord,
,as he was about to move for certain papers which
he conceived materially necessary to a prorier un-
derstanding of the question.
The SPEAKtII. observed, that upon a notice" of
motion there could be no discussion.
Mr. TIERNEY remarked, that he understood
the Honourable. Member (Mr: Wetherell) to say
that in , consequence of a certain .motion which
stood for Friday; he had something to propose to
the HouSe which he conceived necessary to
proper understanding of that motion. This-lie
conceived the Hon. Member.had a right to do.
Lord C.ISTLEREAGII said, it would be as well

f
Hon. Gentlemen were allowed to explain their
own meaning--L-(A laugh.), . •
Lord FoLKsToNe conceived that it was corn-.
petent Ito the Hon. Member to niake.any mo-
tion he pleased on the .question.
Mr;BANKts said, it was unusual to enter up-
pon any discussion before the King's Speech was
read and taken into consideration. lie did not
say that it was incompetent to any Member to
dO so, but it was contrary to Parliamentary
usage, unless under peculiar circumstances.
The•SPEAKEIi observed, that if the Honourable
Member would explain hiS object, he would apo-
logize if he had misunderstood him. He under-
stood the Honourable Member intended to offer
some observations upon the notice of the Noble
Lord (Hamilton). That, it appeared to him,
would be contrary to the usual forms of .the
House.- It was impossible that any observations
could be made leadin4 .to a discussion,-without
going on to a termination of the question. - If he
mistook the Honourable Member, he begged his
pardon : but if be did not, he put it to,him and
to the House, whether he was not irregular in
addressing the- House on the notice of the-Noble
Lord? .
Mr. WETHZRELL said' he had bee-i. misander-
stood, and was read y,to explain whathis object was.
He intended to move for the production of cer-..
tain papers, 'which he conceived absolutely ne-
cessary to a proper understanding of Lord. A.
Hamilton's motion.
Lord CASTLEREAGH .thought. the Honourable
Member could not make any, motion of the kind
without notice. If he wished for the. production
of any papers, he could avail himself of another
opportunity of moving for theth. . •
Mr.WIITHEntLL said, that piovided he could.
attain his object, the mode by which he did.so
was quite immaterial to him. He was ready to
bow to the will. of the House. : The papers for
which he was about to move-were, in his opinion,
absolutely necessary, in order to come to. a pro-
per understanding of the Noble Lord's motion.
However, in deference to the- opinion of the
House, he was ready to reverse the proceeding ;
and to give notice for a future day (Cries of No,
no, move now.) He would then move at once
(Hear, bear,) for " Copies of all Collects taken
from the. printed- Liturgies of the Church, in
which.the name of the Queen Consort has ,been
from time to time inserted, from the reign of James
I. down to the present time. AU.° Copies of .all
Collects copied from the Liturgy annexed to the
Act of Uniformity, passed in the reign of Charles
11. down to the present time, with a'specifiCation
of the blank left in any of the said Collects;
also a-Copy of the Order in Council of the 12th
of February, 18W, by which her Majesty's name
had been excluded from the. Liturgy." lie did
this with a view of enabling the House to under-
stand fully the nature of the motion which The
Noble Lord had fixed for Friday. No doubt
but every Gentleman's research had brought
home to him the proper information on this sub-
ject. He moved for those papers, as public re-
cords, which were absolutely: necessary to a pro-
per understanding of the 'motion of which notice
had. been giren. The Liturg.y,was a public re-
cord, under the Royal Sanction, as was the Act of
Uniformity. It would be strange and absurd to
come to a decision upon. stick a question with-
out reference to the records, and .the Statutes of
usage connected with the subject. He maintain-
ed that the Ronsecouldnet, with justice to them-
seliies--to 'The Country—to the. King, or to her
Majesty, enter upon , the Noble • Lord's motion
without having the documents, for which he
Moved, laid upon the Table. He would also
move for " Copies of all Orders in Council froM
the reign or James I. down to the 'present time,
respecting any alterations in the Liturgy in the
names of the King, Queen,. or Royal Family." .
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it would be more
convenient to give notice of the motion. The.
Honourable Member was transgressing the rules
and forms of the House. Ile was moving
with-
out notice for documents which nobody under-
stood. If the Honourable Member thought
there was -any 'reluctance on his (Lord C.'s) part
to produce thoge dOCuments, he was much mis-
taken-.--so far from it, that his only objection was
as to the time and manner of making the motion.
He put it to the House, whether the country was

d •
likely to improve from the late reformation's
‘vhiCh had taken place in the farm -of making
motions in Parliament.—(A. laugh.)---lle was
sorry that The' influence of a certain Gentleman
on the other side was notlixerted=--(Loud langTh-
io.; on the Opposition side,)—to prevent motions
which may tended to excite ciarne4r, For .his

part he Vs74s not aveare id what particul4t office
the information called for by the Honourable
Member could he found. He had no means of
judging precisely at that moment whether he
'ought or ought not-to concur in the motion: Un-
derAhOse 'cirCurnstattces, he hoped the motion
would be for. the pres.ent;withdrawn.—(No7 no.)
it-Nvas god forAknY. thing it vvould go to
-Ostpone
.the nvtion which 'stood for Pliday
--it would oper% as an absolute bar to it. If
the motion was not _withdrawn, he felt himself
under the necenity of moving the previous ques-
tion; - -- -

Mr. B. B.l.TricasT seconded the Amendrtitnt.
Mr, Trritxv-y Said,;.,that as "far, as.. he ender-
steod the Noble Lord, he had no obiectlon to
Honourable and Learned. Members motion,
but only to the tithe of making it. , It was most
extraordinary that any objection. .as. to time
should. lie made, when the documents moved for
lvere 'Which theex-clusion.of ber",iNa-
jestY's'naMe from the.Littirgy had' been founded
but the N 0616 Lord had no idea where those
doenmetits'COnld be found. If that was the case,
he should wish to know where the Noble Lord
had laid' hiS fingers upon them, when, the order
in- Council was made for exchiding.herAkjesty's
narne from n the. Liturgy' ?2-4lfear„
he would only beg the House to consider the wayin .
which the question Steed. The. Honourable.
Member '(Mr. Wetherell),_ who made the mo.,
tion, was not an ally of his .(Mr. Tierney7s), he
was the uniform supporter of Ministers. A Noble
Lord (A.' Hathilton) had given notice, of a motion
for 'Friday. •'"!rhe 'Honourable 'Member (Mr.
Wetherell)- said, that there were certain doca-
rnents which he wished to have laid before the
Efonse, in order to gUide his -decision upon that
(notion. He thought he could not form an °pi-.
nion-in•the
.absence of -those- doeuments". ," The
Noble'Lord ((7astlereagh). said he had neObjec-,
tion to the production of the documents, butt he
would riot allow "them to be prodticed neW..This
was as much as to say, " you must:first decide
upon the question, and afterwards you may have
the docunients."----(A. laugh.)-The Noble Lord
might if he pleased inive taken another ground,
and objected to any discussion until the King's
speeCh -had been 'reCeised, And taken into consi-
deration.: Instead of doing so, he said, that the
question ought not to be agitated at present, as he
did not know where to lOok for the paPers,
was a most' curious mode of reasoning ; it was,:
most 'singular objectien :to the Motion. Ife
would not have added another. word., were it
not for an observation which had been made by
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) over ;
his Lordship expressed a wish that he
Tierney) would exercise his influence in pre-
venting .certain motions from being made. What
did they Noble" Lord mean by this P----. The
Lord' had 'indeed. infitience 'on. his side of -thq.,
House, but did his Lordship think, that he (Mr.:-
Tierney) could have the impudence, even if he
had- the inclination, to ray to any Honourable
Member that such a motion shOuld or should not-
be made? The Noble Lord, indeed, knew whart
his influence was .at his own side•of the House;
he .could. turn round to any of his party and say,
" Sir, you hold such a place, and you shall lose -
it if you do•net do so and So"-L(Lotia laughing)-
But did the Noble Lord imagine that he (Mr. 11%)
could do this It
_was the tact and
Noble Lord to represent• the -Cop-pOttroiti-
artily invariably acting-Under the 'orders of a Ge-
neral. He (Air. T.)'disavewed the power and
command which the Noble Lord ascribed to him ;
if such - a power were offered to himhe should
decline the responsibility' attached to it. -Mi-
nisters, indeed,' had it- in their power to corn-
Maud—but more of this by and • by.-811
he could say was; that he felt clattered; .by
the attention of, any Honourable Member wig)
.consulted.him as to whether any particular Ale-
tion ought or ought not to be made. But hs
should 'feel ashamed of him Self if he
one step further than simply giving his opinion
upon the question. •The person so consult
big was of course .master of his own actions-
The Noble Lord might have contented him
self with his ,owu extensive influence, • .ivitlii)ut
casting his jeers .upon his (Mr. T.'s) side of the
-House. But the Noble Lord had come down full,-
of the King's -Speech, mid: Was irritated at an &Y
14-
thing which came in his 'ay., No matter -wha ,
was started, i 1,4 seemed determined not to loSe
single inch of ground.' Re was determined tol
oppose, not only his (Mr. T.'s) side-of the 49u5!4„:,„
but his own also (a laugh.) "•
Lord CASTI.EUEAGit 'rose to .eltplaril
loud cries of
,"_spoke,.spokel"
Mr. Wctttcatr.r...said, that her sMajesty's:
name had h.ben excluded from the Liturgy by an.
Order in-COunciL of the l.th;FebrUary,
He presumed that the Noble Lord. and the rest
u
of the,Concil had read
.the. ai:Cilgii;!l:ts for witich
he moved 'before they made such order. Did tb6,
Noble Lord -mean to say, that he and his cols"
leagues did riot look to the Liturgy'., Or did he,
Mean tO.say., that having looked to it, he did not
know where. those document ri Were 4ow to he.;
fouti4? Was her, `,Majesty's name- at once cIC,.
eluded without reference to the law :of usage for,
the last two centuries? Did not the Noble Lord
know that such documents were to" be found in
the British Museum? Or was it thought .neces'-.
sary to. consult the undoubted, u'nif'orm,
broken usage from the reign of Henry the Eighth
down to. the present period ? Did the .Noble
Lord presumedid hedare to' say, that the Privy
Council 'had -struck her Majesty's name from the
Liturgy 'without looking' to the usage of centu-
ries ? If the Noble Lord said that the thing was
done unadvisedly .(and unadvisedly he believed
it was done)---if he meant to say that a pen wet,
at once drawn across her- MajestY's name with..,
out reference-to- the usage of- former. times, what
a severe censure did. he pronounce upon his col-,
leagues in office.
Mr, B. BATuunsT rose, amidst cries of "
tiOti."-T-The Right lion. Member was proceed-
ing to address the itouse, when •
Mr. Humn rose •to order.—The Right. Hon.
Member (Mr. Bathurst) was about to address
the House; and, of-eourse,-as a Member, of 'that.
House, Now, sinCe'Parliartient had been pro-
rogued, that ll.iaht. How. Member had been pro-
mo4A to.a high office, and he (Mr. gutxte) was

;

-

tot aware -that he had, since his promotion, been
a
te-elected as Member of that House. He con-
ceived, that the acceptance of an office of 5,0001.
a year was, under the .Act of Parliament, a just
ground for vacating a seat in Parliament. He
and. others 'were ignorant of -the, real state of
the case, atld he wished for information on the
Subject.

Mr. B. BATimas.T. thanked the, Bon...Member
for a catioOn,..whici,i, if the case were as he.stat--.
ed, would.save him 500/.,.. But,, before. the Hon.
Member had made the observation, he ought to
have. made himself master of the .fact. It was
said that he_had accepted an, office of 5,0001. a-
'year ; but the ACt alluded to said nothing.of per-
sons tilling offices without salary. Commissioners
of the Board of Contrel were appointed without
salary, and the King afterwards granted a..certain
salary. The Act alluded to did not compel per-
.
their
to'offices without salary to i7acate.
inoit• seats, and he Was_preCisely in that predica-
for, 'holding the office of Chancellor of the
Duchy of Lancaster, at ,present, he received
.no
salary as President of the. Board of Control—
(Laughing.)
Mr. 'TIERNEY said,_. that there was a salary of
4,5001.. a-year attached, to the office of Commis-
`sioriet of the Board of Control—that salary was
'afterwards increased. The question was, whe-
ther the Right Hon.- Member acted as a Super-
litimerary Commissioner, or as President of the
Roard of COntrof? If he acted as President of the
136ard of Control, as appeared by the Gazette,
'them it would be for him to:say whether that was
a place of profit and emolument, according
.to'the meaning of the Act.
Mr. 13, BATHURST .repeated, that the appoint-
'Merit of the President of the Board of Control
was in the Crown but that he, holding another
appointment, received no salary in this his
-

TIERNF.Y said, they had to congratulate
the country on having the office of President of
The Board of Control filled by the Chancellor.of
,lhe Duchy of Lancaster without any salary—(A
angli !)
Lord MiliroN observed, that Sir J. Pulteney
had filled the office of Secretary at War without
:ahtrY ; but the' question was, whether such of-
••"9e obliged. a Member to vacate his seat ? The
question was not whether a man actually receiv-
''d profit, but whether he accepted a place from
'which he had a right to receive it ?
Mr. GREEVEY remarked, that it mattered not
'Whether a Member accepting office declined receiv-
,ll„g anY salary, or_ thought proper to give it away.
Government
question was, was it an *office of profit under
‘-reveriirrient ? So, the Member of course Tri-
Frated his seat. He was of opinion, that the Right-
4{°n• Member (Mr. 13. Bathurst) had vacated his
accepting by acceptin the office of President of the
Board •
ard of (Aoritrol.
LLIVir• B. I.3lkTiLunsT.referred to the Act in ques-
ti" which, he contended, did not include Mem-
bers holding office's without salary. The Right
Zion. Member then proceeded to argue upon the
l'.4lestion before the House, but, from the noise
itch prevailed,' we were unable to 'catch his ob-
,telrvations distinctly.—His Noble Friend (Cas-
rtZe„agh) had- •no objection to the principle of the
iti-,'°ll, but he conceived some.. delay necessary,
ticrt4r to procure the documents called for.
•11,,,i "core not to ha—picked_ up in the streets,.
fro-nr,l4 the shop of a bookseller, bia must be had
gm— the most authentic sources. Upon these
po,.uns, he agreed with his Noble Friend in op-
°gss the motion.
41, 11'J• MACKINTOSiI .did not rise to diSCUSS the
lie-ye.st`") Whether the Right Honourable Mem-
tee- ought or ought not to vacate his seat on hiS
ckelit aPpointrfient; If the law stood as he
pthr• Bathurst) said, he. was of Course safe, if
toileorise,' he sat there at his 'own risk. He
.thltu• not agree with the Noble Lord opposite,
l`ri the motion of his Honourable and Learned
441. (Air. We'therell) could cause a postpone-
hitef the motion' fixed for • Friday. It . cer-
-1)44 would cause such a postponement if the
Ivere°l-Is question were. carried, or if the question
I a'tte'r
l'essed to a division. The Noble Lord's
4r ato eagh s) statements were of a most singu-
liq Ait.extraordinary nature: It was said that
a,, • aJesty's name had been excluded from the
}-rte b
hlete Y an Order of Council of Feb. 12, 1820.
l!s'as- no referonce 'to precedents ; and fur-
;Nth`si3 Majesty's Ministers had 'suffered eleVen
It4,,!••4'ct to elapse without directing the proper
11.1110,. 3 to be made out from the precedents upon
t,i'l'erf.eY,lacted.. And to this moment they
t:ll.ta :4dY to rest their vindication upon docu-
4484h;e,cessible to thq most vulgar minds in the
a 4s • if his Majesty's Ministers were not in
leer'd ' -of the proper documents, then they
°al 14j.gally and unconstitutionally, in erasing
ipk-I'.ll4llatY's name from the Liturgy ;• if; on the
`tni td, they were in possession of them where
of an hour's delay ? He was bound
14.1)1,:1 t ‘, either-that they had acted in total ig-
t44l- in k the usage of centuries, or else they
,e() opts Situation_ to -produce at once the
ved for by his Honourable and Learn-
• le s •
,?hse ICITOR-GENERAL begged to offer a
lit',4t 4_tions upon this question. It was -urg-
-111,,,,`'1tu,„ excluding- her Majesty's 'name from
Nirt dg: 'Ministers, if not possessed of the
44(1 4'ents, must have.been ignorant of the'
eu •
ktlot'"ari-1) which they acted. But Ms lion. '
l'4.i.:l4ltha'ejlthi?riend was wrong. He must have
• e name of her. Majesty could not
Orti‘"lued from the Liturgy without an
wha'd er in Council to that effect. 1 he
(11 ust of
fiti:44thor. Course have read the documents
uould Ised them 'to make such an• order.
the lltgr,„"te for the previous question, as suf-
sti Pr(!s 'tic' had not been made out, either for
ajea ent . •
• ecessity of the motion, or for the
~k'‘,3os•was attempted to be cast upon his
), • - Aonisters.
4• s
t,,,ehd(te/ARL-ETT .observed, that his Learned
d • S°l. • C
with tcitor- xeneral.) although he con-
asuh"., ,the _Noble Lord (Castlereagh) in
as motion of his Learned Friend (Mr.
ftrst() ) differed widely from the Noble Lord
oratair eundS' of that opposition. The Noble
vse f delay and of difficulty in select-
alifl"ry docurnents which were re ilk-
' )et • .
_dearned Friend the -?nliCitPr?

. .
Oeneral.tontended,that it *Ai hot to be prestnn.
ed .that -his Majesty'S Ministers cane to their de-
cision on that Albject without the fullest-investi-
gation of all-those documents on which the• Order
in Council-was formed: .Ile should leave it td the
Noble .Lord .(Castlereagh). . and • his -Learned
Friend the Solicitor-General to reconcile the in-
consistency amongst! themselves. the Noble
Lord's own reasoning, he •(Mr. S.) :was of opi-
nion that the Noble Lord took the-wrong course.'
It would be much more consistent . in him to ac-.
cede to the.mation, rather than .meet it with. the
previous question. If a delay should take place
in preparing the documents, that was, no reason')
for their not being presented at. all.. Should the.
delay exceed a reasonable time, it would be for
his Noble Friend (Lord. A. Hamilton) to consi-
der whether he should proceed with his intended
motion, without waiting ‘for'their production.—
It appeared to him,- -that these documents ware
necessary to consider whether the exclusion of
her Majesty's name from the Liturgy wasr he
would not say :legally, but constitutionally, and
with propriety effected. That was to ,be dis-
cussed wholly independent of the dry question of
law. The ground of delay was not a sufficient
reason for his Learned Friend (Mr. Wetherell)
to withdraw his motion. For his own part, be
believed the whole of 'these documents could be
prepared in the course of one .morning.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW, although he thought it
. would have been better not to' have introduced
the motion at the 'present moment, still contend-
ed that the House possessed and ofteu exercised
the right of discussing very important questions,
independent of questions of privilege, previously-
to taking the Speech-from the Throne into consi-
deration. He adverted to the case 'respecting
Lord Melville, and the motion of Mr. Sheridan
for the repeal of the' Suspension_of the. Habeas
Corpus Act. -As the. present motion had been'
brought forward, and as it' had now -been dis-
cussed nearly an hour and ten ininnteS,fie.thought
it should be acceded .to. The information-sought
for, from the production of theSe documents, was
most necessary. It referred to a subject,. on
which every man must admit the country was at
this moment fatally convulsed.--(Hear, hear !)
He wished the House to consider how the-refusal
of any motion for information would, under such
circumstances,- be received out of doors. To
supply the necessary information, he should then
vote for the motion of his Learned Friend ; but
he pledged himself no further, determined as he
was, so help him God, to discuSs the question to
which it referred, as a great legal question, wholly
divested of all politicarbias.
.The CHANcELr:ou of the. Excnrourn. fully
concurred in the observation of the -Learned. Ser-
jeant who last addressed the llouse—an obserVa-
tion on which every Member, he trusted, would
feel it his duty to act, namely, „that the question
to which the present motion referred, should. be
discussed as one of constitutional law, without
reference to party or partiality. But, though he
agreed most -fully with him in that feeling, he.
still must consider the present a most improper
time for such a motion, calculatedas it was to
anticipate the discuSsion of that grave considera-
tion. An allusion had been made by the Learn-
ed Serjeant to cases in which discussions on ques-
tions, independent of privilege, preceded the
„consideration of a Speech from the Thrmw. It
was true that such cases did oc-etir ; but every
Member would recollect with 'what disapproba-
tion these very extraordinary motions were re-
ceived
by the House.

The 'louse then divided on the previous ques-
tion--

Ayes 260
Ives `- 169
,
Majority — 91
On our re-admission into the Gallery, we
found

Mr. WETHERELL on his legs, giving notice of
his intention to renew his motion on to-morrow,
for the production of the documents, which. were
comprehended in his former motion. lie was
proceeding to state that no printed Liturgies of
the Church could be published without the Royal
sanction.

The SPEAKER, interposed, and said he had no
doubt the Learned Gentleman would pardon the
interruption when he stated to him, that if the
observations be was about to make referred to
the notice which he had given for to-morrow, he
would himself perceive that he was anticipating
the discussion of the reasons which induced him
to make such a motion.

Mr. WETHERELL, in deference to the sugges-
tions of the Chair, limited hiniself to the .mere
giving of the notice for to-morrow.
The Clandestine Outlawry Bill was then read
a first time pro
,forma.