The Sun.
London, England, 1821-02-02 00:00:00

BREACH .OF PRIVILEGE.

Sir JOAN NtWPORT said, that on a former oc-
casion he had notified his intention of bringing
before the House a certain Paper which had
been published in Tice Gazette. Be did so be-
cause he considered it to .be a breach of the pri-
vileges of that House, which had .received the.
sanction of the Ministers of the Crown ;—he did,
so because he considered the attack to be di-
rected against the liberty of speech,--he did, so
because it conveyed to the Throne a censure upon
the deliberatibus of that House. He would refer
to*the Journals of"the 23d of May 1810,_where
it was recorded by men of the most enlightened
minds, that they held it as an ancient,-generall
and undoubted right of Parliament to enter into
a full and free debate upon any subject which
came before it. Thies address was said torhave
been laid before the Crown, and Ministers had
promulgated it through the Country by means of
The Gazette, as having been very graciously re-
ceived b,r the. Sovereign. He was sure the House-
-would not think it possible that it could have
been laid More the King, when they reflected
on the early and wholesome principles which were
inculcated into his mind. It was one of the
great benefits, which belonged.--to that House,
7that if any Member demeaned himself impro-
perly, throngh the medium Of the Chair he
would receive a proper Teprimaud. lint these

Addressers, v'ho took upon atent to judge the
conduct of Parliarnen4.,:were an Ecclesiastical
Body, and ouglit- to aftei444.their Ecclesiastical
duties: They repiesented:Areinbers of the Op-
position as making violent and unconstitutional
speeches, thereby producing disaffection in the
land. It was . impossihl,e; such language could
get the sanction of the Throne ; it was impossible
that it could countenance this mode of att.empt-
.ing-to:-destroy-the-xight...a.lree dehate, and t 4,
vilify those who participated in th 4 exercise of
that right. He was almost
_ashamkto enter at
length Upon the subject, but if: there was any
privilege more dear to the interests of Parliament
than another, it was that of free debate. ft had
been stated on a former night, that Ministers had;
a right of selection in the publication of Addresses;.
that none were selected whiCh were not moSera-
ciously received ; and that it was not likely they
would publish those which expressed sentiments
of disapprobation at their measures. He begged
the 'House to see how far such a principle would
go. It invested Ministers with the power of
,giving the Royal sanction and authority to any
censure which might apply to any. class of his
Majesty's subjects. lie conceived it to be im-
, possible for the House to doubt that ,the Address
was a breach of ;privilege. Here the Hots. Mem+
ber read the
;Address from the Presbytery of
Langholm, in the County of Durnfries, as it was
published in The Gazette of Jan. the 2d. The
passage to which he Objected, was the following :---
" We have witnessed with much concern, and
we strongly deprecate the spirit of disaffeetion
lately become so prevalent, from what we would
term the violent and unconstitutional speeches
of the Opposition, in both Houses of Parliament,
and the infamous scurrility .and misrepresentation
of a licentious press."
The Clerk at the table •havinp.: read the pas-
sages in the Addresses complained of,
Sir-Jolty NEWT° RT moved that it was a mani-
fe-SI breach of the essential privileges of this
Howe of Parliament.

Lord C.I3ThriIEAGII observed, that in point .of
fact the Hon, Baronet ought, to have confined his
motion to those parts which constituted the
breach, and not have involved the whole paper,
in
,which; in point of fact, .there were many pas-
sages which did not come under that description.
He, however, allowed that there were pas-
sages in it which it would be difficult to defend,
.if pressed upon the notice of the House, and he
was the last, person in the world to sanction any
encroachment on.the privileges of that noose. It
was onlr generally, and under prudential. consi-
derations, that he submitted it to the Right lion.
Baronet whether, this was a case for pushing the
matter to, its extent. Would it be advantageous,
amid the multitude of libels on the House and on
its MeMbers, With which the,, press teemed, to
take up one insulated example, or, by doing so;
provoke a general proceeding against all who of=
fended, Which, if done, would entirely occupy.
Parliament, for many months, and put a'StOp'to:
all other business. The Right lion. Baronet
had, he-Was sure, taken a more fair and liberal
view of it, and he went along with him in -his
statement; but he put it to hint that the matter
could not be carried further than the bringing
it superficially before the House (which be iyoutsi
not resist), without causing a wider movement!
than could be wished on either side. It appeared
to him that lion.. Baronet could not have heard
the full explanation given by his Right Hon,
Friend (Mr. Bathurst) on a former night, other-
Avise he might not have .thought even the present
proceeding necessary. His .Right 'Hon. Friend
had stated that the Addresses, for publication in
the Gazette were selected from the whole nu I -
her presented; by the Noble Secretary of State,
his relative; but he had further declared that in
the present instance the publication had taken
place in consequence of an oversight and inad-
vertency, and that it occasioned regret when it
was discOvered.—(Hear; hear !)-The practice
was the practice of all Administrations, and was
founded on the principles of sound reason and
justice ; and he argued that if this was unfit for
the Gazetie, soy a fortiori, were many of the Ad-
dresses, &c. on the Other side of the que.aion to
_be ptiblished where they appeared. He was
convinced; that under the explanation of his
Right Hon. Friend, the Right Hon. Baronet
would admit, 'that so far froth the offence being
aggiraveted by the consent of Government, it
came extenuated by their protest. The indigna-
tion of the House therefore would be misdirected
in this case, and he hoped the Right Honourable
Baronet would be satisfied that it was not
'that which rendered it necessary to vindicate
the privileges of the House. He submitted to
Honourable Gentlemen the 'expediency of not
taking up any narrower 'line with regard • to the
freedom of discussion in the public, 'as to. what
'Was clone or said in Parliament. Reprisals 'were
the last species of warfare he should 'wish to en-
gage in ; but it was not to be expected that, how-
ever patient one side' (the Ministerial) was-in its
nature-, they wer-old cuttsent to lie quietly on their
backs—(A suffer 'al! the libellous
attacks upon them', While the other side covered
themselves with the, broad shield of privilege.
lie really., did not think that any public -good
could accrue from this state of things ; and as it
.Could not be allowed, he trusted that the present
matter would not be pushed to a law and prece-
dent for similar occasions.- To publish any part
of their proceedings was a breath of privilege ;
yet. it would be strange in at"),yr one now to stop
that communication which led to the discussion
throughout:Abe country of -what was done by the
House and by parties within it. With all due
deference, then, it was tt little too, much in the
Opposition in suppose ttat. there was' one party
not liable to be assailed, that there was one party
against which nothing must be said, nor any
whisper that it could act tinconsatutionally,•whilv
another was to be aspersed and vilified at,plea-
sure. The Right Hon. Baronet in reading the
,Address, he noticed, had riot appeared to him to
read it very fairly. lie had proceeded as if it
was entirely applied to the ,House, whereas';" zu
_fact, it was divided into three , subjects, the
speeches of the Opposition, the hhe-..phernous
publications of the Press, and (whether'wisely or
not) some document that had. issued from the
Common Council of London, if for these obser-

cations he called the Learned Body to the gar
of the House—if this were to he all example for
bringing forward all similar offences, he would
pledge himself by to-morrow, to adduce three or
four-Charges- from Addresses of another kind, in
which. the most unjustifiable accusations were
lavished upon him and his colleagues, the most
naiwarrantable motives iMputhf to them fer Their
Parliamentary covduct, and, the most gross im
potations upon th7ltouse,_of ccirrtiPA, --Ni'sie-
gard to the-people, and of other crimes. If the
Gentlemen oppoSite required that they should be
thus.rovered, he begged to offer his counter-pro-
jet.—(A laugh.)—lf there was to be one pro-
tected set, he contended that there ought to be
another ; but as Government had disavowed its
-knowledge and assent.to this publication, he hop-
ed that it would be deemed unnecessary to pro-
secute.it any further.
Mr ScattLETT held that the breach- of privi-
lege,,committed as it was, he conceived, by an
ignorant-person, would not have been,wortify of
notice,.hAd it not found its way into The Guyette.
This was its sting, for this was its 'sanction and
the acknowledgment that it had been graciously
received by the Crown. He contended that it.
was a great and violent breach to characterise the
debates in that 'House 'as violent and unconstitu-
tional. As for the apology offered, it did not
appear to him to bestiflicient. He was no advo-
cate, and never would be for those, privileges
.
which would hinder the intercourse between,
Members and their Constituents, between the
House and the country,. through that best me-
dium for it, the Press; but the privileges of Par-
liament were given to protect it against the-
Crown, and it was with regret he saw in all later
transactions of this nature, that: they had been
more frequently used against the people, with a
sort'of jealousy of popular encroachment. Widi;
-regard to this specific case 'he would - ask, i.v.ho
Were the 'Opposition thus designated as insolent.
'.and factious ? Did the King know any thing of,
such a body in that 'House.' Did Ministers tell
him of it ? If they did, it would be more like a
matter of impeachment, -than of breach of.privi-•
lege. Upon the whole, however,- if any ineans;;
could be devised for putting the explanation and
apolO;,ry upon the Journals, so that N;viiile the A-d-:
dress remained, -its verbal excuse should not be
lost,lieshould not be'averse to that course being:
ad o ptv d .—(Hear:) •
BITIIURST repeated the explanation which
he had formerly-giiren, and which 'Lord Castle-
reagh had re-stated to-night. 'For the Noble'
Secretarv,' whose office it was to select these Ad-.
dresses, it was utterly impossible personally to!'
perform that duty, and the :present had 'unfortu-
nately passed without observation. As for the no-
tification of its being.graciously,reetilVedi that was:,
common to all addresses, and it was only more-.
publicly applied to this as it had appeared in the
Gazette.- He, upon these grounds, agreed with
the suggestion of the 'Learned Gentleman'who'
had just sat-down,-and requested that a, motion'
might be drawn up to carry it into effect.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT also assented'' to this-pro-
position, and Lord
,C.tstiutarAGn, to afford time
for this, moved that the debate be adjourned till
to-morrow.

After a ,few remarks from Mr. R. G 0
the question was put•and carried.

FINANCE-TFIE ttE

Mr.•MABEaLtY-rose to move for a string of
Papers explanatory -of the finances Of the coun-
try, and went at some length into the various ob-,
jects -which they . embraced: [The noise of
Members leaving the House prevented us-from
gathering more than his general views.] -He as-
serted that in 22 years there wasra inference and:
loss of eighteen millions, in the expence of col-
letting the Rev.nue. then expressed his ,re-
',
gret that the Minister of Finance should use the
Sinking Fund for the resources of the year. Dur;
ing the last eighteen years the National Debt had
been augmented at the rate of 20 millions a year:
till it now reached the enormous amount of 900
millions. They were at the end of six years of
peace, and all the Sinking Fund had done was to
realize two millions to discharge this immense
had For to talk of the Sinking Fund at its
nominal amount of seventeen millions was a
mere fallacy. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer borrowed from, this amount the whole dif-
ference of:the year, and tht. country saw nothin4
of the real Sinking: Fund, which was in fact no-
thing more than the excess of the Revenue over the
expenditure.—(Hear, heat, hear!)--He diil not
anticipate any great diminution of expeuces from
the King's Speech, for it Merely mentioned a re-
duction in the militat Y. An-d_ he recollected,
that though the Right Hon. Gentleman had tsti-
mated the expenditure of 1817 at seventeen
tlting elmil-
istdress economy.es a No-
l-rieu I-
lions, 'vet in two years after they found it at nioe.
teen. How then. could they expect any more
favourable Tbang,e.now ?- Nothing could cause it
systembut a
s,, could of
relievethenmtshterii .
d
ture and the other distresses of the country but a
diminution of taxation.. It was with this in view
that he moved for certain of these Papers ; thaf
the Wouse might see whether some reduction
could be 'made, espec2lly in the house and win-
dow taxes. In the collectiOn of the Revenue,
too, he wets certain there might be a great say:-
lug. In this country the charge amounted
to Si. ls. 9d. per cent. on the total ; and iinfinitel greater, at least 21, per
n
last year'as high as .2-5.
cf
er etilta„n danditl4iVeashelieye4y
rQiiS ‘vas enormous, aid he was convinced that a
saving of one million a'year might beinade upon
Ireland. This, with the difference, between the
seventeen and nineteen millions already: 'alluded
to, and which was founded on the Right Hon.
Chancellor's oven estimate, would - make three
millions per annum of reduction to enable them,
should war, 9r any other event. require -it, to
meet the difficulties of the times. He
.had only.
to add, that he made 'these motions previon%
the period for granting the Supplies', that every
Gentleman might have an opportunity of examin-
ing the state a the finance.s, and of adopting such
measuros7as their consideration suggested. lie
concluded with moving for an Account of the de-
ficiency in the Consolidated Fund, frOm the sth,
July 1820, to the sth January, 1821,-speciCying-
by what means the same were made good. •
The CIiANCET4I,OII. of the ExcifEqu'Elt ob-

Fer'ted that altriost all the accounts to be moved
by- the lion. 'Gentleman would be included
among those annually- laid before Parliament ;
if however he thought that they could be produc-
ed at an earlier period,_and be of use in enabling
Gentlemen to see their way more clearly,
would not object to the motion. elVith respect to
discussing the subject, it witrld be ruoreeagree-
41e to him to Acit the llNl.bentletnai\'s obser-
'vations hen‘tlie'rrii*Vrs it embraced came regu-
larly before the ItouTe; and he should therefore
content. himself at present with only a few brief
statements, which he-was sure the House would
be glad to hear. And first he hall. to say, that
• in the revenue of last year there wash considera-
ble -surplus.--(Hear !)—lt was with equal plea-
sure he had in the second place to state, that
all the expellees of the current year would
be met by the revenue, without havink recourse
to any new loan, and without the imposi-
tion of any new tax.----(Hear, hear, hear !)---L-They
bad now arrived at the period for which the
House - and the Government had longed,
when, he trusted, they might for many yeae3
bid adieu to the necessity for new }ears,
or new taxes:—(Bear, hemehear!)—Under these.
Circumstances, with- a: snrplas revenue, they had
every reason to look for its improvement every'
year, since the mere operation of compound in,-
terest must produce lhat -effect. Ale hoped thilf
even the present year would pay off as mult-of
the debt as the year 1:74x2, to which the Hon
Mover had alluded. Ile should refer- but. o oo.e
other circumstance. It appeared from the au-
counts on the table,- that doming- the early part of
last year there had been a failure in the revenete
of Customs: it would he consolatory to the floe ee
to learn, that this year, so far' as the accoanf-4
could be made up. which they 'only could be in
the great ports of the kingdornLethat the accounta•
from:London, Liverpool-, and 1•ioil, in IS'2l, ex-
c-eeded the half year -ending at- the same peritri
in 1820, by no less a sum on commercial exports
than three and -a half millions.—(llear,-hear
This was the cheering-statement he had to Mlle
of the actual improvements and prospects of the'
finance of the country.:(llear!)
Sir JOHN Newroicr 'contended Warni•ly fora
-reduction of the 'expence in•collecting the revenue
in Ireland, which he represented to be excessive
in the .extreme, and beyond all measure burthen-
some. So far from havitee diminished, it had
increased more than double since 1808, and in-
.-stead of twine 11 per cent, the charge was nearly-
2-5. -On this ground he entirely agreed With the
Hon. Mover, and alSo with all his reinaeks on
the sys`tem _of delusion kept .up with respect to
the Sinking Fund. lie looked with much mis-
trust at
_the statement of the Right Honourable
•the Chancellor of the EXcheqner of the great
increrse of Customs on the exports, ]le had often.
seen an 'appearance of this kind -succeeded by-
ruinous consequences, the exports having been
sent where _there were no -markets, only to the
-loss of the exporter.
Mr. P. GRENFELT, was not satisfied with: the
assurance of the Right Hoti. Gentleman that
-there Weald be no new loans or taxes this year.
lle wished to know distinctly if there wohld
any addition to -thee public debt—if there would
be any funding in-addition; to•witat now existed'?
Re also expressed himself hostile to the nominal,
-and delusive machinery by which the sinking
fund was managed, and 1,3, ivhich it was, made to
appear at 17, millions, when in fact it was- not
morte than two. He,-wouid make a' lereat con-
cession to theßight.lion. Gen;lernan, and to' this
twomillions would consent to-add the three
mil-
lions he hftd assured him had accrued in addition
from the cusimms. The live millions thus formed
would, in truth, be the real fund, while the other
was a mere fiction. The Right Hon. Gentleman
would be obliged to have'reconrseeto that farce
of an Act to enable the Commissioners for the
liquidation of the Nationill Debt to borrow from
themselves the twelve millions of deficiency. He
Should be glad to know if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had any intention of getting_ rid of this,
anomaly. The Hon. Gentleman then -disclaimed.
all hostility .to the Bank, but insisted that the
system of quarterly •boerOwing from it to pay the
dividends was disreputable to GoVertiment. The
deficiency in the consolidated fund was now.
8,800,0001. and in this there was another fallacy.
it, to
(Ipth,:iirlieeanotri:ti•
pdlt submittedeouetriiira)ootris,stt,hl
:oe-11.111(1,f: hi:
ti:Riallinindsi Ipeeßl
specifically
eat el tile:eofotuor.
or by e issue of Exchequer'
go on borrowings from the,
even at the low interest of three per cent.
deficiency in this fund was greater than infor-
mer quarters, and this led him to think there was
no reason for-encouraging the hopes held out by
Right Hon. Gentleman, that it woull soots
correct itself. • •

~.
.g

~',t

.•
The CHANCELLORof the Excirrovvi agan-t
expressed his desire rather to wait :for regular
opportunities to discuss these important subjects,'
than to enter upon a premature and- imperfect-
exposition of them in the shape of answelin
questions. He would, however, reply-Oniitiy-te-
nine or two points. %Vit i respect to the Mere:ll-se
of eNpence in the collection of -the .Trish revciril
to which the Hon. Baronet hy.l alluded", it by
apparent and not real. • It arose simply
the
rig3l:cotinceth' oer dl%ohf{:leasf.°lriwe :Fd
eto foß!.e3,
laying it Oil the fees of merchants. Now,•to'the
principal question put to him by.-the Hon: G-eti-
t . •
(Mr.th'enfell), he had distinctly to state,
that
atatlie public debt would not be increased
zips/ means or in`{thy way Whatever this
(Hear.)----No stock 'whatever would" be created,
and What was autstandinv: at present, he affirmed/
was no more than was consistent with the public:
convenien.zy and service. The subject of -tbq
Sinkiu4 Fund liail been often-discussed ; and ho
continued to be of the game opinion he had ever
been upon it. that it was far wiser to
persevere in the present system, which was well
and. practically understood, than to unsettle,.-un
der the nrme of simplifications, the ,whole'rn-
thod with which pubh,i; aceountants were con-
ver.c.ani. 'When the time canie that the Sinking' ~
Fund rose above Avliiit might be considered
licient -sum for the gradual reduction of the na-
tional debt, .then it might be. desirable to ad'ort
with the 'surplus the si4vilacation now cpp4l...:ci.i

for; but till that period he preferred 'going on
in a known w,a*y ; for so long as our revenue.
was fluctuating, which from its nature it
must always' be; there Must, under Whatever
form it appeared, be an, annual excess or.
diminution, liable to all the objections urged
against the present system, at whatever sum.
the Sinking Fund was fixed,. As to the deficien-
cy in the Consolidated Funds- he still entertained;
the hope he.had expressed, that it might be got
over by the progress of the revenue. • At .all
events he could not be- persuaded by the. Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Grenfell), that it would, be
wiser to leave the public money in the hands of
the Bank for its advantage, than to borrow from
that Body at a low rate of interest, while- Govern-
ment received a larger interest for its own fund.
The saving to the country in this respect was very
considerable, and the public good was eminently
consulted by the systein.
The motion was, put, and agreed to.
Mt• MStBERLY next moved for an Account'bf
the Charge on the Sinking Fund, from the sth
of Joy, 1820, to the, sth of July, 1821,
distinguishing each quarter. In introducing
this, he replied to several of the arguments
la the preceding discussion, and contended
that there was every prospect of the fund be-
ing worse next year than the present.
Mr. BamtimG. could not imagine any good
ground for persevering in the present system of.
the Sinking Fund. In substance it had been
abandoned for years, and yet the Right Hon.
Gentleman persisted in adhering to all the forms.
These, in his opinion, served only to render the
accounts unintellielble, and'they ought therefore
to be given up at once, and the real state of the
covowed to entry
in regard to its revenue and finance be
a l
appear. On time subject of the ar-
rangetrients with the Bank, however, he coincided
with the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
Ihecltier, and differed from the Hon. Gentleman.
t was the most economical course that could be
pursued, and
produced a very large saving to the
But it was not necessary in any. of these
transactions to have the whole accounts in con
fission. The statements made-by the Right Hon.
'Gentleman had been to him a very agreeable dis-,
appointment. lie rejoiced to hear of the im-
Provements in COmmeece, though he was at a loss
to copceive how 'they bad occurred in the midst
of all the distress in which the country confessedly
was, and particularly while the distresses of agri-
culture were so severely felt. It WO difficult to
. account for their not having communicated their
effects to the state of trade and: commercial
terprize. In conclusion, with :these cheering
Prospects, he the more insisted on the expediency,
of, simplifying the accounts, in-;order to enable
them to tneet what remaimied.of difficulty.
The CHANCELLOR. of .the EXCIINU ER, in an-
swer' to one question 'relative to the increase of
the
revenue, begged to Say that it was greater last
half year than:he liad'..ever remembered. it; and
on this it was thaihe founded his hopes of pro-
g..ressive improvement. As to the simplification of
the national accounts, that might certainly be in
alsoe degree to be wished.: but the House ought
to
sue fr b e aware of the great evils that must en-
O'lntrt 4" alteration in all the old forams-. Such
nteeasiligib
mre
would render them perplexed and un-
Post-be n'et' and the whole for a century past
modelled to. enable them to draw
combo modelled,
hetWeen any past year and that in
vhielm
ti'Y were. He preferred going on in the
'cay whi
lear use and experience had rendered
amnia applicable Mr p to the general service.
1111 Lies
traordinar considered this to be a very ex-
Understand eY P
throposition. Ile for One, never could
•
knew no one whPesent system o accounts,
the ilia h° Hon..") could.
He questiOned• if even
merit. Gentleman stood in that predica-
Why were they not as-simple as any
hrm merchants, as those of the Hon. Gentleman below
(Mr. Baring) which, however extensive, he
would be bound to say, displayed none of their
'intricacy or perplexity.
The Cnixcceeon of the Excima. urn replied,
drat he tvas., sure a great many Gentlemen un-
derstood the accounts as they were now framed.
,frrni-oliarument. was' in favour of old e,stablished
in preference to theoretical' innovation,
191'itim it was demonstrable must be attended by
many inconveniences.
Air
• DARING said, all the " old forms" were
tl:i_%e,nted by the Right Honourable Gentleman
n- elf, and had been introduced by him within
self,
two or three years.
The
A, question was put and agreed to.
simre“2:r' AI‘nERLY then tnoved for accounts of _the
of4-'esBPi'licahle to the redemption of the Funded
1821 the United Kingdom, on .the sth Jan.
fur ar'!eParating Ireland from England ; as also
beet '°llnts of the total unredeemed Unfunded
the fan the charge on account of management lof
.d a
Icmternai,j)Ppimcable to the redemption of time
4've'ie f,„"
leht—the charge 'of collecting the re-
char,' United Kingdom—=the amount of
atn(int of On the Consolidated Fund—time
Pal'ers.-.....;011e Duties on Windows, and Other
rderod.

14, Ar FICCISE.
iiid. Artoct P
v;GERALD moved that there
o'2l4)i;:bl:)e.laid ore the lIouse; copy of au order.
di', the "°ard-of txcise, dated the 22d July last,
- ••16 subject of Irish Spirits.—Ordered..
Trin QUEEN.
baLord C-AsTrAtt-EAGH moved the Order
of the
0 y for bringing up the report of the Committeel
1111:1a,t11at Part of the KinE,c's Speech, relative to CIE.
111.9., Of a provision for her Majesty.
, Sir G• CLERIi. brought up the report, which.
was read.
I
sl Awr'i 11. Sumxr.it rose to move, that 20,-000/.
'l'll,°,:n'i,Tbe strbstituted for 60,0001. in the report.
i , - oil. Gentleman expressed regret for the
i'll'Petuosity with' which he had expressed himself
butart of his sple.ech on the preceling
,evening ;
for he could not in the same way express rev:et
lir that which he had advanced, which had led an
i:311. Member to accuse hi:n of ignorancp of the
Nil ‘•
'L'Ples of British 'jurisprudence. 116 would
tonai,utain that he had a right to form an opinion
tille ,case of the Queen, from the evidence
ils).:tict,' bad been given in..the House of Lords.
~i-it.',"4 all the rest of the evidence aside, that
' l!'eD had •been obtained from Mr. llownam
.4-111 e ''rr• .',lzlCient to satisfy him that the Queen

. .
was guilty. This opinion be could not alter, and
he-did' not think he acted inconsistently; when
he thought that it would not be safe for the Pub-
lic that so large *sum as that proposed by the
Noble.LOrd should be placed -at the disposal of
he:. Majesty. He should not discharge his dtity,
if he were not to Move as an amendment; even
though he should not 'find ten-MemberS-inthe
House favou'rable to his motion; that the 'words
" thirty thousand," should be substituted for
" fifty thousand," in the'Report. •
Mr. Bll.OlrofIAM Said, the House would see that:
he -could not rise for. the purpose of opposing the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman ; whether the.
House' chose to 'insert• 30,0001., 20,0001., or
10,0001., must be to himself and his Hon and
Learned Colleague a matter of perfect indiffer-
ence. The Queen refused the money entirely.
She resolved to take none, and therefore'what,
ever sum theHotiSe might think proper to vote
was to her Majesty And her Legal Advisers a
matter of perfect indifference.. The
having expressed regret for the heat into
which he had been betrayed, he (Mr. Brongham)
was the. last man to say that it ought to be re-
membered for one Moment. • But he' must put it
to the Hon. Gentleman, whether-it was fitting,-
that he should take-Up -night after night (and lme
was not the only one who had dorre so)'detaChed
-portions of theease, the whole Of which had been.
laid before the other:ltouse. He'was'now obliged,
to say, that if-he heard any more of this—that
Member after Member continued -to rise to give:
an opiniOn'•on parts of the case=--an opiriion,
founded on what they might have heard out of
doorsif this course continued-tote pursued, it
would be impossible that the matter should rest,
there. The -Queen was -guilty or not -guilty—:
she was acquitted or not acquitted. If she had,
been acquitted,. let her have the benefit of an
acquittal—if she -were not acquitted, in God's
name,. let those opposed to her Majesty come
forward again with charges against her, if they
and the public had hot already had enough'of
such proceedings.—(Hear, hear, hear
Sir TuoimiAs Ltmluttiode said they had no
right to try the question of the guilt or innocence,:
of tile Queen there, but he had a right to eXpress-
his opinion on the ease; and looking at the evi-
dence, he would lay his hand upon his heart and
say he-believed her Majesty to be guilty.—(llear,
bear, hear I)—Neither the taunts of her advo-
cates, nor the clamour of the -people out of doors'
shoUld deter him from expressing this opinion.—
He should be sorry to go one-step beyond what,
might be regarded as moderation, but he could:
not
-help expressing his sentiments on this ques-:
tion, and there, as one of- the Representatives of.
the people of England, he would say, that When-
a grant like that moved by the Noble Lord was.
proposed, he had -a right 'to support an amend-
anent that went to substitute a smaller sum.—
He was disposed to do this-, because lie could not
approve of the Way ju. which the money plaCed in
those-hands had been.dis-posed of. He was borne
out in, saying, that there was no answering for the
way in whic..:;:`,;ny so disposed might be used. ,
It was said that the Courier B.ergara had lately
been , living :in the metropolis of France in a
manner which would better suit the rank of our
highest Nobility, than -a- person of his ignoble
character. He wished to knoW where .the fUndS
-came from that suyporte,d him in this style Of,
Living?--was it froth the House of Commons-?
If they were thus to dispose of the money of the-
people of this country—if :this were submitted
,to, -he knew not What character would be given
to the British People. He thought the character
-of the country disgraced, and when a vote was
proposed which :he -thought-furnished-the means
of continuing thatdisgrdce,_ he 'would oppose it
as far as he could -by vote, - which should be
given for the snialler sum which had been named.
Mr. CURWEN, though anxious :for economy,
could not object to the large grant which had
been proposed, and though her Majesty, in some
of her answers, had been betrayed into time use
of expressions which he could not approve, yet
he considered these ought not to be imputed to
her Majesty, but to some of her advisers. He
wished to see the Queen restored to the Liturgy,
and to all her rights, that the country might no
longer be agitated with theSe disenssiOns.-
Mr. AVSTEILN complained of the manlier in
which the case of the Queen had been brought
forward piece Meal, as contrary to every principle
of law and justice. _ _ _

Sir T. LETHBRiDG'eicplained.
-Mr. M. FiTzGERALn commented on the incon-
sistency of the course pursued by Ministers in
giving a single grant to the Queen, while they
avowed- that they had a moral conviction of her
guilt. He thought MinisterS ought to'rise and
justify their conduct.
Mr. 11. SIL)INER, in explanation- said, he wished
to- curtail' the alloWance to her Majesty ; as he
doubted, in conseqnence of t he.setlitious tendency
of her answers to the, addresses, and in conse-
quence of the message brought 'down from the
.Queen yesterdaY, he'could not think it safe to
place so largea sum as it was pro'posed to give in
her hands.

A 1,1% SYItiE3 thought when the office of mode-
rator became vacant, the lion. Gentleman would
do well tobecome a candidate for it. He rose
for the purpose of discharging a duty which he
felt that he owed to himself and to his Consti-
tuents, by explaining the reasons which would
govern his vote on the creseni occasion. He pro-
ceeded to argue, that the objectionable expres-
sions which bad fallen from her Majesty did not
deserve the construction which had been put
upon them. It-ought rather to be suppoSed that
they had escaped without due consideration. lie
regretted :the exclusioh of her Majesty's name
from-.the Liturgy, and was of opinion that its re-
storation, which her Majesty had a right to de,.
mand, must ultimately take place. The Act of
Charles the Second did not, 'in his opinion', autho-
rize the course which had beem taken-in leaving;
it out.' He thought the .Queen otighug be i-ein-
• stated in all her rights, and did not belieri're. that
till this was
,done the public mind would be
tranquillized. ,
Mr. AldernianWpon said, as the lion. Gen-
tleman opposite seemed to Wish him' to bring
down some account of the manner in which. her
Majesty paid her bills -he
_begged now to ask

that Hon.. Gentleman, if he (Mr. H. Sumner)
hid any nusatit"fied, claim in his ficial,tetl
would-At dowtr fora moment to give iiiiit•titne to
H answer, As the: en. Member did .not, appear
disposed to.answei- he-should proceed. lie-had
called on the Hen. Member as he had dOne; be.;
,cause much had been said on this subject ;last
night. They had heard too of the large sums
spent by an individnal (who had been Galled an,
ignoble charatter) in Paris, and these wire ift
some way connected with the accounts which
had been meatier-fed. lie would challenge the
Hon. Gentleman 'id thew that one shilling had'
been transMitted to that. individual. Ile also
challenged hitn'te prove . that the style in which
that
:individual lived -in -Paris was such as had,'
been described. This- he 'might easily 'establish,
if it 'were the fact -though' he might not be able,
so easily to prove
_whence he derived the funds*
which ,supported such splendour. 'He 'had'
now to state, that the person to -whom he,
alluded; was at Paris by , the express desire
of her Majesty's Legal AdVisers, to be ready,
in case 'he 'should be wanted .as a witness
in this countr.--L(Hear, hear,- hear !)=He'
spoke.in•the hearing .of her Majesty's'Counsel,
who-could set him right if he had stated any. thing
intorre.atlk,' Had Mini tei's -dared, or had they
chosen.to bring charges 'against her Majesty in,
-the lletise of Commons-, they !bight have had the
pleasure of seeing the 41-entleman alluded to'
(Pergarni) in this country. lle did not complain:
of the way in Which the Noble:Lord had brought:
the present question forward, but he had now.te;
put to him a very Strong 'qtlystion or two, similar'
to those 'whiCh he had just asked.. Ile believed
the Noble Lord had read" from a book certain
Answers' said to haVe been given by her -Majesty
to Addresses presented to her.. In one' of these
she was made to say, " I trust the period will ar-!
rive when I may promote the happiness of my
subjects." This Was 'read as the Queen's ansiver-
fo the Address of people at Dover. Now he:
would ask the Noble Lord if he had ever seenitiu
writings and if he could answer forits being in re-'I
'ality -the answer of her Majesty.—(Hear, and
laughter.)—lle would call on the Noble 'Lord,'
1
or any one else,. to say that was really the!
answer of her Majesty. 'ln answer to the Ad-.
dresa, of the Lord Mayor and Corporation of
Canterbury, the Queen was made to say, " I am
happy to receive the congtatulations of the good
people of Canterbury, It `will always aiford me'
pleasure
,to make my people. happy." Ile ished
to know how it could be proved, that these were;
'the answers given, by her Majesty. He denied;
that they Were her's, and -would forfeit his life if'
she• Were proved to have given them. The an-
swers given to the people of Dover and Canter-
bury were merely a few words---were verbal.
was' true, that at Canterbury something,.
like the expresSions given in, :the published
ans‘yet- had been used. -Her Majesty had
said, " It would afford great pleasure to me
to make all the People happy."—(lleat, hear!)--
But in the Dover answer he denied any thing like
.a close resernblatice to that which had been given.
lie could appeal to,all in the. room for the cor-
rectness of this assertion. The fact was, no
written answer was given at all, for the Queen .
had not then been used to gite answers to ad-
dresses under such circumstances. Ile, however,
denied that she had replied j the;terms de-,
scribed, and he challenged the Noble Lord, and
the whole-Country, to find any such Words in the,
four hundred Answers which had been given by
her Majesty.
Lord CASTLEREAGII rose, but gave way on per-
ceiving Lord Low-my:it an his legs..
Lord LOWTIIER rose to 'say a few words, which
went to corroborate one of the statements made
by the lion. Member 'for Somersetshire (Sir T.
Lethbridge). ''He had been at Paris, and while
there, the person pointed out to hiM as Pergami
was distinguished by ati equipage, and a style of
living, fully as splendid as any' then to be found
in Paris. '_fle liv'ed in the most .public way, his
servants were about every where, and nobody
there lived in greater style. Where he got the
funds front which suppotted him in this mode of
living, and whether he paid for what he had,',
were circumstances of which he knew nothiog.l
He made no -comment on the way:in which her
Majesty might be expected to dispose of the
Grant proposed to be made. When it was once
voted, he conceived that she had a tight
:to do
with the money what site pleaSed.
Mr. said, it was entirely by his
directions, in concert with his Colleague and the
rest of her Majesty's Counsel, that Perganti had
been bronght to Paris to reside. It was at his
suggestion that he was fetched from Italy, where
he was residing on his own earth, in case the Bill
should be brought froth the Lords to that House,
and in case het Majesty's legal Advisers should
think it necessary to call hint as a. witness. This
he asserted-he knew of his own knoWledge. In
Consequence of directions.which he (Mr. B.) had
gifeli, that individual (Pergarni)i was brought to
Paris, and if while there he spent a considerable
sum, he was not the only witness for the Bill
Or against it whO 'bad lived at a considerable

expence. •
Lord CASTLEfiEAGH had not intended to give
the 116uSe information that was other than cor-
rect. When the lion. Alderman challenged him
to spew that the answers he had read were those
of the Queen by proposing them in writing-, he
knew very, well that he ( Lord Castlereagh). was'
not in the service or in the confidence of hei Ma-
jesty, and he migbt therefore most gallantly
challenge him as. he had done, as he mast be
aware that it was the last challenge that he could
possibly accept.—(llear.)--:-The answers parti-
cularly alluded to by "the Hon, Gentleman ap-
peared to him laughable. in their character. Tiu
were expresSiOns in theM of a character- much
mere serious than these idle rhodornmitades._ if
the book published" . were incorrect, he thought
the Honourable Alderman . would have been
Much better employed- in correcting the pres
than in challengiuv him. This-hook having been
boldly published, he had Concluded-that they were
correctly given. lie Would read from it, one Witfth
he thought needed more NMSiOn than those which
had been alluded to: ' pOing this, he should ren-
der the worthy. Alder Man e, fori as he un-
derstood, a new edition Was about_ to come oat,

that these most precions doctiments; political,
Moral, and'reliiious, tniglit not be lost, if it -yliaS
not properly printed. tliz3 13- or r A !deft-Min .Would
have an opportunity of.COrteting. it. The2:an=
saver wits:one gitea to the ileciple of Waridg%icittli
October.l3,

•
Mr. Alderman .WooD wish6d to vidiSt
pitge It appeared ?
Lord GAsir.e.EAGi said, in page 73,, but hO
did tiot know whether they had got ltOld of
the's7tme edition. The answer ran thnst" Though
no Queen has been more easy dt access to
her people; on their part, there has ,been ,m 3
minution of love ai:d respect. The ag-e'of igno-
rance is passed away, when it was thought indis-
pensable that subjects shouldd-be distant and Oh,.
sii..qUions. A-Sovereign tney dispense with: the
ceremonial formerly required, (there it would be
seed the Queen considered herself to be a Sove-
reign), -and could not keep " aloOf front them
without forfeiting their regard." Those which the
Honourable Alderman had, .noticed he
.(LOrd
Castlereagh) regarded as trilling and contempti-
ble, What he -objeCted to was the whole sys:
tem of-politics and morals to he found in theSe:
documents, which, circulated as they were; if
they were 'believed, seemed to .him more calcu-,
lated to produce fatal consequences to the cuun-:
try than any publiCation of the Satrie size that he
had ever ma with. . .

Mr. GIPPS contended, that on that, side of -the
House Members had as good a right to expreS''s
their conviction of the guilt of the Queen as they'
had on the other to speak of the prosecution "as,
having been carried on by bribery, and cemented:
by perjuy; The Worthy Alderman vindicated•
the Queen's answers in such a manner:as to lead
to the belief that doing- so_he wasdefe,nding his:
own bantling. He referred to a record. -a
vote of thanks from that House, thanking Queen
Anne for ordering the Electress Sophia (the next
in succession) to be .prayed for: This proved
that it was optional with the Sovereign 'to regu-
late the name, in the Liturgy, as had it not been
so there would have,been pia thanking the Queen
for, what she had done.

Mr. DENMAN called the attention of the House..
to.the.treatment which The -queen had exile-1
rienced, from the Government from the moment]
of her landing down to the' present- time. He
considered into develOPe a system of persecution;
which (as had been said by :the Member for"
fork),- was unparalleled in the history of the;
world. That the House of Lords had come to
a vote against the Queen he admitted, but that I
they had convicted her he denied. It would be
seen, from .looking to the close of : the proceed-
ings, that no ,conviction had taken .place., and the
held had been given up,.because -Ministers knew
that it could not he' brought to bear in the House
of Commons. He contended that the Queen had
a right to the full benefit of an acquittal, what-
ever the motives Might be which caused the Bill
to he abandoned. Had it come down to that
House, ,he wished to have asked if those who
were now so ready to pronoiince on her Majesty's
guilt from what they had heard elseskhere, could
have pretended to have called themselves un-
biassed Judges. The Members of that House
had a right to form an opinion on the. case. Let
them form that opinion on the case, and act on it,
but - still they had no: right to go into the parti-
culars of what had been done elsewhere, and
bring parts of it 'forwai d, 'as had been done that
night. He had no more thought of having to rise
for the purpose which he had now risen for, than
he had the-tight to have to defend a 'case that had
been dead and buried a hundred years. He
cOmplained of the opinions forthed en rumours,
and the- miserable and contemptible reports of
the style in which a particular individual was
living.. A Noble. Lord had condescended to sup-
ply some particulars on the subject, but he thought
that Noble Lord, instead of employing himself to
observe the motions Of that individual, would
have done better to have given more of his at-
lentiOn to the study'of the principles of English
Justice. He protested against the course which
had been pursued against her Majesty, defended.
the Message sent doWn by the Queen 'as being
perfectly consistent with her conduct at the very
coin nenc6neut of the proceedings, and contend-
ed for her right to be restored to the Liturgy.—
lie thought it impossible for any persons to be-
lieve in their hearts that the Queen .entertained
any scheme for overturning the State. There
vas more appearance Of such a design on the part
of those: who had framed the Address, which, un-
der
.the sanctimi. of Lord Sidmouth, had appeared
in the Gaze‘te.

Mr. Wir..moT said, he must continue to believe
that the imnisSion Of the Queen's name from the
Liturgy, was perfectly according- to law'; and
that the insertion of it was a more.matter of grace
and favour. He thought it his duty to vote for
such an allowanCe to the Queen, however, as be.
fitted her station ; atid at the same ththe her se-
paration froni .his Majesty. He should, there
fore, object to the amendment of the. Hon. Mem-
ber for Surrey.

Sir. T. AcntrAND particularly agreed with this
vote, becau.e it came to no conclusion as toter
Majesty's kuilt or innocence. If it had not been
fir her Majesty's self-denial and generosity,
Fhe Would have had, when Princess of Wales,
as much as she was now about-to have voted for
her separate maintenance.
rotttiEs would vote for the original surn;
and say, wall an Ilimourable and Learned Geri.
tlernan in another place, " Co in peace, and sin
no more."

Mr. BROUGHAM said, that this- was, (he would
not say on the part-of the Honourable Member)
a most false pervee.sion of the moaning of his Ihi
nourable and Learned mend.

Sir. F...Ow.utNNEY . supported the Motion, as
was .tindentood. ; • •

Sir 41.-BvArt.E explained something he had said
•
on a preceding day. Ile should have been in-
clined to move a greater slim for tire Queen, but
for the state of the country. The•example of the
Queen in.paying her bills was one worthy of imi-
tation. He should support-`the' motion of the
Nab:le Lord.

;f lie all ry was elearecl3 but no division took

place, and-tile original motion 10r50,000%. wal
carried.

Sir It. P.irt-rtELi-i.moved, (dr a return Of certaid
articles,. itriportpd into front. Ireland, a:ii
z c versa,Witiihi the las,t.ye:a-ri which motionthe
fion—oit'r,able; Baronet' fdllorfed Vv; t t.henotice
of a niotion for the .app. o;I taiei:t of a Con-vaiittge
to consider tli;sA.,thjectj to facitifate
the Coininerclal Interconrie hettreen the twit
Countries.
. .
T (.; he n_tNcti..t:dn. of the' E...,f: ctik:4l.7l.:ii„said, that
he had objection tO the riiutiony and it waSac
cordin,rly agreed to.

,
Mr. USLIINGTON kid on tne table certain ,
Fay
pers relative-to the sloop George.---Adjotirned at
o'Ctock'

LAW IN TELLIG EN CM
COURT OF KING'S BENCH, F. i.

Tlft HI YG Ve. S 11,:. F. lititt

m,... . . ,
• 1. he ..A-rTo!INEy-GvstRAL pra*ed the judg:.
meat of-the Coda upcin the defendant for a libel.
of which_be stood convicted: .

Mr. SCARIATT said, it vas his intetftion to
move an arrest of judgment; bit befOre he did
so, he would, suggest to .the . Attorney-General,
in consequence of the _difference of opinion upon
the 'lion. Ilto:6net'i case on the tench, the.pt=o-:
priety and justice of acceding to Alis
for having the case removed, either by the present
Court, or byanother Tribunal, who would eithei
over-rule or confirin the judgment of that CourL
The character ui:'d henour of the Hon.-Baronet,
was deeply concerned it the case, find as one .of

the,Judges thought a new ttial ought to be grant:.
ed, he would leaVe it ttrthe Attiirney-Gent.ral. td
say whether justice was not n:utt-
done by having- the factS as disclosed on the trial
made into a special cases and the judg-,inent of the
Court taken upod it, The grotind of his motion
for arrest of judgment was au insufficiency or
want of averinents o'n the face of thee-record but

he should not go into that, if the King's Officer
acceded to his proposition.
• The, ATTORNEY-GENERAL was surprised at
such aproposition being made at this period.
ought to have been made to hire in Private. He
could,uot accede to the suggestion of his Learned
Friend. After the length of time .this case haa
taken.up, and the long,arguments that had been -
heard upon it, when the. defendant was called
up for judgment, hiS oounsel threw out, a-sngs
gestion to their Lordships-, and not to him in
private. lie was satisfied on the jtidgetent of the
court, and had no doubt 'but it was correctly
•I--te felt it a duty which.he owed to.tiie
Public to call at their Lordship'.handb for judges
mot upon the defendant._ _

Mr. SCARLETT replied shortly to. the observiv.
• •
tions of the Attorney-General ; and said; tnatite
one of the Judges had declared that the defend.
ant .ought to -have a new trial•trials it would have
beep
.wise in the Attorney-General to spare .

that Judge the pain of passing judgment.—
Mr. Scarlet.t then went at large into the grounds
fdr au arrest of judgment, chiefly resting upoß
this point, viz. That .theie was an insuffici-
ency on the record td prove-that the defendant-
wrote the libel of and concerning the dovern-
ment, as charged in the information.
On his sitting down, the Loan Cnirr it..;TICg%
said the Court would consider, and defer giving
judgment until Saturday next (to-morrow).

IN THE mArrrrt OF MR. HENRY HUNT.
Mr. SCARLETT said, that the rule granted to
Mr: Hunt against the Sheriff' of Ilchester had
been moved by Mr. Chitty to be discharged-with-
out costs, during his (Mr. Scarlett's) absence.
He (Mr. S.) eautd not consent for the rule to be
discharged but with costs.
Mr. CHITTY could not consent to have the rule
discharged with costs ; and it was ordered to
stand over for argument on a, future day.