The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-17 00:00:00

most inAances, when an officer retired, he was
-by the next' officer iu command, an,
~9s grantcd his half-pay,when any
Ited to be compelled to
an authority as the Hon. and Ga:lant
ocr for Marylebone; but still he (Sir
,dould say that he was confident, if war
. out to-rnorrow, the fleet would be quite as
welt manned and officered as it ever had been. The

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question brought, forward by the Gallant Officer was one
of great importance -and intricacy, and therefore it was
a matter for fair discussion, and considering the poiats
relating to it pro and con., and then decide upon what
was best to be done.
Captain PECHELL thought the expressions which fell
from the Gallant Officer who had just sat down, afforded
further proofs of what had been frequently asserted
before—namely, that it was hard under the present
system, to render justice to the officers in the distribu-
tion of promotion. That Gallant Officer.had alluded to
precedents, as also did the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government ; but this Commission would
never hare been appointed were it not for the number
of times which the question had been brought before
the House. The Gallant Officer who had lately been
appointed to the Government of the East (Sir H. Har-
dinge) had spoken most manfully in behalf of the navy,
for which they felt deep gratitude. He (Captain
Pechell) got several letters from the masters in the
navy, complaining of the manner in which they had
been treated; and also of certain expressionS:rhich were
used in that House, and which they thought were likely
to lower their position in society. The claims of those
officers had not been brought before the Commission,
and he considered this to be a great hardship. Many of
the officers had no opportunity,, from their. long resi-
dence on shore, of being sufficiently conversant with
nautical affairs, and in order to obviate this evil, he con-
sidered it would be necessary that some change
should be made in order that the younger
officers might . have some opportunity, of be-
coming practically acquainted with their profession.
He stated that employment in the navy was never ob-
tained except by means of political or aristocratic in-
fluence. This was notorious ; one Board of Admiralty
might be slightly better than another; but, to use, a
naval expression, they were all tarred with the same
brush. They would give employment or promotion to
those deserving of it, being continually pressed upon by
political influence. With respect to the employment of
ships, he stated that the Queen, of 110 guns, was kept
during nine-tenths of her period of service at anchor in
Malta harbour. And he could state another instance, in
which a ship, on board of which some important experi-
ments had been tried—the Fox—and of which experi-
ments the operation had never been tested. This vessel
had been lying ever since in the river Shannon, whether
for the purpose of collecting the poor's rates, or frighten-
ing the unfortunate natives, he did not know. But for the
sake of improvement in naval architecture, he felt indig-
nant that there had been such apathy in beth cases.
In ,neither case had a sufficient trial been given to the
improvements. It was the object of the motion to pro-
cure more frequent employment for young officers—that
principle the Government had itielf acted upon in choos-
ing the young and Galiant Member for Ipswich, whom
they sent to Hong-Kong to share the prize-money with
Admiral Parker, which, no doubt, he was very w,ll able
todo.—(Bear, hear.) Were young officers more fre-
quently employed, it would give more satisfaction to the
professton. He believed that the present Board of Ad-
miralty- were as well disposed to them us any other, and
be hoped they would listen to the motion of the Gallant
Commodore, being assured that it did not at all interfere
with the preroeative of the Crown.
Lord INGATRE said he should not fallow the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton from Ireland
to Hong-Kong and back again. He was as well
disposed to promote the object of the motion
as any one, and he was as capable of exercising an inde-
pendent vote in that House as the lion. and. Gallant
Member. But there was a question of prudence involved
in this matter.—(Hear, hear.) He questioned whether
the reiteration of these motions, without a chance of
obtaining the object in view, wag not doing an injury to
the cause, especially when such discussions were pressed
in a House so thinly attended. He should not vote
against the motion of the Gallant Commodore, neither
should he vote with him. But he trusted he would not
press his motion to a division, for, if he did, he would
do great injury to the cause he advocated. The ques-
tion was much better left in the hands of the Executive,
because this House was not a court of appeal in ques-
tions of this sort. With the respect to the delay of the
Queen in Malta Harbour, he thought there might be
good political reasons for it, and though it was desirable
to ,try vessels, to test their powers, and exercise them,
yet opportunities Were not always available for doing so.
Captain HARRIS (the new Member for Christchurch)
and Mr. Hume rose together—the latter gave way,
and the Hon. and Gallant Gentlemen addressed the
House. He said the question was one of the greatest
interest, and though he should not be disposed to inter-
fere with the Executive, yet as that House voted the
supplies, if it should express a wish to put the navy
list in better order, he did not see why they should not
do so. With respect to the Gallant Commodore's plan
of allowing 100 L a year to 100 captains as a retirement
he thought many of them would not accept it ; still he
would have no objection to support the proposition, pro-
vided it was clearly understood that the arrangement
should be voluntary.

Mr. HUME said the question was one of great im-
rportance, and had been often submitted to the House.
appeared, from all the debates on the subject, that
they ha:d .a fast of so many officers of different ranks,
yet, from the Whole list, they emild have a difficulty in
ollieerine. Though he had heard that contra-
dicted, yet it was certain that the list contained a
.great
matey men who could net, under any circumstaneei' re-
enter the seryiee../ -.Thus, whilst they had apparently a
large naval estabitshioent, they had really a moot in-
ferior one. They were paying and keeping up an ap-
parently great military establishment, while their force
was really a small one. Toe estimates were no less
than six millions, yet they were told that a large num-
_ ber.of officers were unfit
,for service. They had heard
that the. House of Commons was not to interfere in this
matter . .
Sir G. COCKBURN' said that he had not denied the
right of the House of Commons to interfere with respect
to the navy.
Mr. HUME 'said he had understood the Gallant
Officer to say that the House was not to interfere with
the promotion or pay- of the navy, and the Hon., and
Gallant Ogeer grounded his oppesition to the motion
on the fact o 4 Naval Commission having been ap-
pointed three or four years ago. He considered en in-,
quirt' into the state of the navy would be or the greatest
importance, because he believed it would be shown that
. many deserving officers bad been set by
.to make way
• for young men, the friends of the partisans, of the
ametareet. —(WTear, hear.) ..Troia the report,. of 1838 it
appeared there a cre. 683 captains in the royal navy, 313
• of wil An' never served . a single' day after they were
• posted.—(llear, hear.) There was one admiral who
had served only nine years, and was only one year
in actual service. He believed the same admiral had.'latela
got a command in Malta. He had supported the lion. and
Gallant Member for Greenwich when he brought forward.
his motion for an inquiry into the state of the navy with
a view to remove those who were unfit for service. That
was a proper principle, and he believed no naval officer
in or out of the House would object to it.—(Hear.) They
, had now waited 'four years and a half, and nothing had
been done. lie thought the masters, who were a most
meritorious class of persons, had been treated with great
injustice.---(Hear.) If inquiry were granted he hoped
it would not be limited to clearing the list, but would be
• extended to ascertain how it had become so numerous.
The appointments in the navy rested with the head of
• the Admiralty, and of course, political influence was
' regarded.—(Hear.) This was not the principle on
" which the best bulwark of the country should rest.—
' (Hear.) He had not opposed the grant to the effective
• part Of the navy. It was the money that was applied to
the useless and extravagant parts of it that he objected
to.,—(Hear' hear.) They had seven captain,. and seven
• lieutenants for a ship, and only used one.—(Hear, hear.)
Would any one keep seven coachmen and only use one 1
—(Hear, and laughter.) It was no wonder then that
they had to pay 1,500,000 E to officers on. half-pay. If
the half-pay list were examined it would be found that
the service of most of the• officers had been. but
but small.—(Hear, hear.) A regulation had been
made that no promotion should take place till three
persons had died. That bad been acted upon for some
time, but the returns would prove that it had soon been
disregarded. The practice had been to place school-
boys over the heads of old officers, but •he was glad to
I think that things were not so bad now. At the same
time, he did not think that the old officers shotild be
pensioned off without sufficient grounds.. He did not
_ think the Gallant Commodore would de so hiniself.—
(Hear, hear.) But he thought that an inquiry ought to
be grant.:d.
Mr. S. LIERI3ERT did not think the. Hon. Gentleman
who had just spoken could have heard the motion of the
• Hun, and Gallant Commodore, Or the reply of his Right
lion. Friend—(Bear, hear)—for he seemed to mistake
the question altoeather. The real question was, whether
the remedy which the Hon. and Gadant Co,
propesed would cure the evils which thy were all will:
lug to admit.--(dear, hear.) Ile believed that the effect 1
of his motion would be .to add 25,00'01, a ye!ir to the
permanent bardena of the country aitheut effecting the
good he expected from it. How would it act ? If the
retirement were optional, those who were at the t.,:p of
the kit would refuse the
.additional pay, and would run
the chance of tficir livesagaidst the hope of heii!g4Made
fear-admirals,--(hear, hear.) They should. then. go 'j
the, list tO the young officers, who would. accept
the retirement, and the consequence would be that the
old officers, would be ill active service, and the young
" men would -be CM retired list.---(Hear, hear.)se 'thing like
eel cornii:sbrf retirement v.-as ot.t of the
,
• thin. He iamitted't iat the practice of proMoting
eakia. according
to good, but under pre- 7,
-.- • eiiority was
circumstiencei it could not be clone on a large .scale.
'Siteli was th'e practice in Frieice, and he approved, of it
1;10; there were altirent opinions amongst naval officers,
the cinciti.ui being a large one, andtbe remedy pro-
zioeed. being one , V,-hieh would prove incifeCtual, he
I should vote agaiiist the motion of the Hon. and Gallant
Comm-lie sheiCal not regard the expense if it re-
medied the evil coniplained of,. but if at the end of two
'RN's they found:theta:selves' where, they were before it
would be absurd to impose such a burden on" the Conn-
• try. He hoped the. Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would
withdraw hi* motion.
captain CARNEGIE said he should oppose the mo-
e.. t.inn, becausee it was a direct interference with the E.xecu-
-4., • Live, Isevereinent; btaateie if the retireinent were..l
ee optional,. the .e at the the 1 -cline the
additionij pay of ss. a day the It" ,
in toe Lope of ou'e ming tne
ee. rank of reaf-p.dnairal. He did not think there';as'Oc.:
sion-for irarnejiate inquiry..
Sir C.aNA PIVAR replied. He not think he ever
• 1?,4k4 the Right Hell. Gew leman make so anti and
week 'a reply as to his speech.--(Laughteri) He had I
not attempted to controvert the case, he (Sir C. Napier)