The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-04 00:00:00

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would be, the manufacturing capitalists of the country. It
was the manufacturing knowledge, ingenuity, and power,
which had made England what she was now, and however gal-
ling it might be to the agriculturist, ilea ever painful it might
be to hear about the ignorance of country gentleinen—( Laus
ter)—however disagreeable it misia he to him is, be itean-lod
in his f- rtune and in his cooncrr bj the oer masufac-
tater, who had applied his mind to tes wines-, aid h:d
acquired millions by his energy, whilst the landowner
had been dreamins, away his life—however painful
it might be to hear all these things, it was net the less true,
that to the manufacturing capitalist, and to him alone, was Ow-
ing the
-g
greatness and therandeur of this country.—( Hear,
bear.) It was the knowledge and power of that great commu-
. pity that had raised England above all other' communities.—
(Hear, hear.) We should have been mere Nimrods—a petty
island in the ocean, instead of governing the world—had not
it been for the manufacturing capitalists. Our fleets were on
every sea—our flag was floating upon every breeze—but this
Was not owing to the lazy landlords, but to the active, energe-
tic, enterprising, manufacturing capitatists.—( Hear, hear. )
Men wondered and pointed at us, and asked how it was that
England, which was but a speck on the globe of this earth, was
the mighty power that held the balance amongst all other
Bowers, and influenced every quarter of the civilised world.
e had no hesitation in saying that the majority made up on
tthe late occasion was nohonour to that House.—( Hear,
ear.) How many votes had been given on that side of the
uousein consequence of the course pursued by the Hon.
Member for Stockport? They said the manufacturers had
gone against them, and they would put a torch among them.—
(Hear, hear.) It behoved the other side to show that the
course they had taken was the right one, and why, after being
elve years in office, why after being kept in darkness for so
many years the light at last broke in upon them Now he
;wanted to know what was the Noble Lord's panacea, and
whether it would be worth anything?. It was to prevent the
tlabourer from labouring more than ten hours ; what would be
low consequence ? The consequence would, be an immediate
er ..ering of wages—(Cries of " No ")—when Hon. Members
• and Y No, no, they should prove-how this "no " will happen,
he would then bow down to their opinion. The number
of laabourers would remain the same, the demand for work
ould be' the same, but each individual labourer would be de-
PtiVed of a certain portion of his hours, and would thus in reality
be a less efficient labourer. When he, therefore, came into the
must arsk
fet he would come as a person who, being less efficient,
ask, ache could only ask, less wages. Take the mann-
• aetarcr :. he had a large portion of his capital invested in ma-
dchtlittn.ery and milli ;. that was the larger portion of his pro-
then Powers; but a smaller portion of it was contained in exertions of a labourer, acting as a labourer. The manu-
ttatcturer working twelve hours a day produced a certain quan-
tV, and working ten 'hours he would produce less. But
e capital of the manufacturer remained the same. His fixed
capital, as he would call it, remained the same ; but his floating
Laspsitaln the form of wages would differ, and would produce
durrUnder these circumstances one of three things would
itieineb, Either prices must rise, or profits upon stock must
or
Prices wages must fall. Which would take place?
tition could not rise, for they had foreign compe-
mo " every side of them.—( Hear.) At the present
me.nt, it was
as much as the manufacturer could do
to maintains was
footing in the foreign market, and, by a mere
turn of the scale, he wauld be driven out of one-half of it.—
no__," from Mr. Ainsworth.) The Hon. Member said
•1 He wished he Would get up by-and-bye, and state
bow it 'would be .‘ NO, no." The Hon. Gentleman should
real
is take more care how he expressed his opinions, for he had
of
elged them al°l round.—(fallibility Hear hear.fo) themselves,s There wa a class
• °' Persons h claimed inr though
the
Y were the most changeable. of men. In every change they
thwere always infallible, and always intolerant ; and, change as
ey woula; it never suggested itself to them thst they might
,s-a/e been wrong throughout. But he was about to show that
"neof three things must happen—either prices must rise,
Profits must diminish, or wages must fall. It was im-
Possible that prices could rise while they were
ee„!Posed to such foreign competition. There was
"Be United States, Germany, Switzerand, and France,
and he wanted to know how were the manufacturers
of this kingdom, who, within the last few years, had lost some
portion of their markets in every quarter of the globe, either in
mulles, Germany, France, ors Switzerland to stand up
gains an increase of that competition ? In evi ry case a turn
la., the scale would drive them from the market. In that branch 0.! trade for which the constituents of the Hon. Member for
wNleffield were celebrated, and in which the people of England
ere considered to be supreme above all the people of the world,
St turn in the scale at this moment would drive them from the
market,_( Hear, hear. ) Take America. America would
„e°s_TPetewith them in every market. She had a sagacious po-
tr"tion, who were possessed of a peculiar knowledge of the
er of machinery, and by whom all the changes that had
_ti place in machinery for the last thirty years have been
iand who had therefore substituted the power of ma-
y for handicraft. If they tampered with the trade of
'g d, and with the capital employed in labour ever so little,
e them take care lest America and France would not outsell
.neto hi the markets of the world, when they would be obliged
ii'llorne home and tell the manufacturing labourers that they
interference._(
no More markets, for which they might thank their own
erference.—( Hear, hear.) He saw those who only looked
toi the last operation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He
aasw °ldscountry gentlemen, who exulted that Consols were
tsPar.---( Hear, bear.) That was one of the most fatal symp-
lir he had evor seen of the state of the country.—(Cheers.)
...at did it show It showed this, that so small was the re-
fn on capital, that it ass advantage to buy in the Three
Per tentswas
.—(llear, hear.) Go to America, and ask for 3
-rper cent. on capital there.—(Loud laughter.) So sensitive
eiT they of the loss of their capital, that even with all the
wn before them, which showed that in America the returns
ifet great—(Continued laughter)—they were overwhelmed
acmes recollection that they had cheated them out of cer-
iT of money.—( Hear, hear.) But that was not the
iteir itio. The question was, whether in this country the re-
e apon capital was not exceedingly small. He said that was
vident from the state of the Consols—from the fact that they
were
"'Laing to lend their money to such bad payers as the
tray al.ericans, which showed that there was no adventure so ex-
resagant—no danger of loss so great—that they were not
trY to undergo, in the hope of enlarging their profits.-
4',!ar., hear. the The consequence was that which he had just
tk"cd, that the profits of stock employed in manufactures at
rPeesent moment were greatly diminished, and the
atts for carrying on commercial enterprise was lessened.
_Zits at that point that if they reduced it lower, the conse-
al nee would be that he would have no more means to engage
‘,..e labourer with. Each succeeding year would bring a sue-
siori of losses, and instead of being a manufacturer who
h(bruld go on employing labouring persons every year, he would
tiLe a less number of labourers in his establishment, because
ov,Yilad foreed him into a condition in which he could not re-
t' -",,,,ec• If prices were low, would they cut down the
e4l of him who was least able to protect himself, and whom
t-eY
,co idnot protect by a Ten Hours' Bill, namely, the
labourer, who cause in side by side with his
'"g competitor, who would take less for his ten hours
ars and whom they were now deceiving with the idea that
rirten bters' labour he would get twelve hours' wages ?
‘—e'
"ear.) Let them not deceive themselves. On him
lrettld fall heavily the weight of the Noble Lord's humanity.
as-1' hhiem
vw,Ould fall the consequences of. it. For he would be
*anti," euias„ I?Vr, numerous in his kind—e.very. day's
say to-rhimtte:tiroas to demand labour, aad the capitalist would
a he said to him now, your labour is worth
L;ek e 7.1:!: a
e nothing.
at: no more, that you must take, or
It was a most important and most awfyuolucwonil-l•
he addressed himself now to the Right Hon.
aertleman the Secretai", of State for the Home Department,
every he asked hi With
us why fie 4dled with the question ?
idesh re'Pect for the Bight Hon. gentlemen. he
waft,: Unfortunately meddled with this
air Every man
asked him
the R•altjee with him, when he said that it must is'es
(1411,1 g" Hon: Gentleman's sagacious mind that the COP'.
clear to
evils which he (Mr. R.) was depicting were the necessary
What would would fellow from that interference. He asked him
iq thif°°d he could obtain 'in this race of mock humanity—
and is„Pai,nfill struggle for eminence in ignorance ?—( Cheers
Prepojginer-) What goad then could he derived from so
raref,..;eraws a
position ( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. R.) had
•wett. ...ea from any remark upon. the labour of chil-
statlees..4 oat depended upon a totally distinct set of cireum-
they w They were not capable of judging for themselves;
e,s4 ere subject to the power of others. But the full-grown
the land. woman, who had arrived at that age at which
should
decided they could judge for themselves—why
Theyid,llle Right Hon. Gentleman interfere in their concerns?
He , ere the best- of their own private interests.
thehad made these jremarks without any feeling of hostility to
kti
littt;etatt
ticanhthetelidni • Gentleman ; but he did entreat of him, before
again into this abyss of legislation, to settle with
nciples upon which no undertook a
with f
eat the s.erintion—not to halt between two opinions, and,
.wsth-
ferell vulg thrown overboard altogether the doctrine of Intel:-
Wks to Make a mighty fuss about the extent to which it
Th;"ed."—( Hear, hear. )
seeolad question having been
_put by the SPEAKER, several
tieing elapsed without any Hon. Member rising, and there
jond cries of " Divide,"
GRAHAM said he was un7iiling that the House
sots divide on th t qufestion until he. had nreviously offered
het,: °b4ervations ina t the s
lie addressed to themreenee Hon. and Learned Gentl,7,raan•
Nest s_ by the. peech had Just
' the that he had rather anticipated that some advocate
'Peeeh-. Ten Hours' Bill would • rise to reply to that
"-(Hear, hear.) Many of the principles for j
isis::rah,mth rtehNitepe Hon.etand.Learned Gentleman contended, he (Sir J. 1
Vositin' ad on a former occasion urged upon the House, in
to the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire.
art o his argument as to the reduction of the
'Ailiin at edoet. 'manufacturing labour, it was for the advocates of that
to reply to it.—(Cheers.) He was extremely un-
"Plieh" ,to .`efer to the somewhat exaggerated expressions
h4-tapoeant,the !seat of debate, had fallen from the lion. and
the
'lt Of ventlernariN He was sorry to say that, without
fil'llappLangllage se.th,:t description,
. too much exasperation
ore, in -s prevailed on that .cubleet—( Hear, hear)—and there-
, the fe
eGe9h he was about to make, he
I 414 shot w observations w;.;
ri the e 'tato from using languacre of an irritating nature.
urst place, he agreed with the Yon.. and Learned
,Ttereetrnax! that a just, wise, and enlightened v;ew of the best
the working classes ought to form the basis of their
esalea 'Ores not for him to look at the motives of Hon. Gen-
Ms*net House.speaking generally, believed that
titoustthere was great difference -of opinion, tithey were all
t ,oecide this matter in that manner which would be
"nrucive to this
comfort and welfare of the working
is nine
be it from him (Sir J. Graham) to depreciate
(tltt`Ols e,e` /al e of the machinery that was now employed
114. Itoehu. n.itry% He fully agrees! with the Hon. Gentleman
tss. fuiti in what he had said of its value and impo
1, hurt, -y agreed in the eulogy he had passed upon the
-014, foantririg capitalists of this country. He believed theyh
rst; their elnldoyment for a large mass of people, that wit -
J, at deploys enterprise and talent would have been left in the
tatrirthble condition. And he had not one word to say
'eta% e Principle laid down by the Hon. and Learned Geo-
of that
sood the minimum of interference was the greatest
sate. minimum this question. But he must be permitted to
kat tk.ue House that the argument now brought for-
-1";:tee
star advanced stage of the Bill was an argument much
aileuilt.ed to a motion for a repeal of the existing law than
eekullis
feted
the. Particular, object which they had proposed tO
sqtneieted night —( Hear, hear.) The principle now
h that by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was identical
:e4 tete which was before the House in 1833, and which was
„7etits by the wisdom of the Legislature. All the argu-
.4,,_•.-utch had
h been urged to-night, were urged upon that
Ve had g certainly not with greater ability. The pin-
ti,rtnae„, Lien been most carefully weighed, both by the Go-
Itt ;7.guidefl by Mr. Poulett Thomson (tso ordinary autho-
111,1:::hehetsienounZoters),.and by the Legislature, and sitar Touch
tot had "It had been placed as it now stood. But what
had
consider was, the nature of the Bill then be.
s„,,111) said
_sea, and the principle at issue. He ( Sir J. Gra-
te-7 of iinetra t
.it was the regulation of the labour of Children,
end abstinenceat,n p.ersono, in connexion with
of
poq (Hear
f•
Trohmatiwntuertfehreeness with the labour
fettling the. question of thisar.) description it wparsingnioptLahie ible°73; thought
hOtr
Ists4'lled Genrestion brought forward by the Hon. Uri
kue beer( morenian."-- Hear, hear.) He did think it would
tetion ulootoarnvenient to have taken the discussion of the
oonfourtahbeie
proposition
Uet;'-e,
blishlutehmseib°eniir . for Dorsetaillre."—iCheer.
ilZl4h-eetrhfie
fterho
e, confine himself to the consideration Of txtr''
t.'heileNrelleof:lnel.e:crtteiofocro•v:thttiihne
why, having admitted the
t j.s e interference with, adult labour the interfered
t%'t flee theecoPloyZ'ent of labour whist' was not adult? He would
House bat
td
that occurredexi
04in j 1833.)29

admitted, on all hands, that the practical effect of limiting the •to- tile wealth of-a' -nation Vidi to give every individual full
hours of labour of children and young persons to twelve hours ' scope for his-own exertions. The power of the production of
would be to limit the working of machinery to that period, a nation was developed by giving the most unlimited freedom
He believed that, generally, such had been, practically, the to individual exertions.—( Hear, hear. ) All restrictions im-
effect of the negsure altogether ; if() doubt there had been ex- posed upon industry impaired its efficieney, and from this it was
ception t. A on this subject hit been introduced by the must i.ropt•rly argued that these restrictions, when the wealth
late Government, in 1841. That rfili hal been brought. in by of the nation was considered,were most unjust. If they deprived
the Right. thin' inrahle Gentleman the Member for Perth, a mai, of turning his industry to the hest account, they in-
whom he saw io his place, and by Mr. Shell, the Vice- flirted the greatest injury they could upon him. For instance,
President of the Board of Trade ; by that Bill it if they prevented a man from taking Dantaic corn, of which
was proposed to extend the limitation of young persons he could get twenty quarters for the price he could get fifteen
from 18 years of age to 21 years of age, so that if that Bill had in this country, that inflicted a great injury upon him.—
passed, no person bet wren the ages of 13 and 21, of either sex, (Hear, hear.) To increase the wealth was not the only object
would have been allowed to work in factories for a longer of a Government.—( Hear, hear.) The morel and physical
period than twelve hours, and there could be no doubt but tat, welfare of the great body of the people was the true object for
in the majority of instances, the practical working of the exist- which Governments were formed. Industry was most pro-
ing law had been to limit the working of machinery in the ma- ductive when least trammelled by the law. And he wished
nufaeturing districts to twelve hours a day. There were, how- ! the House would agree with that, or discuss the monopoly of
ever, exceptions, and he believed it had been found possible, in corn, coffee, and other things.—( Hear, hear.) It was only
some few instances of competing manufactures by the employ- two or three years ago that the House passed a Bill prohibiting
meat of female adult labour, to work the machinery for a longer ! the labour of women in mines, without any opposition.—(Cries
time. This was certainly contrary to the intention of the Le- of "No.") An Hon. Member cried "No he believed he stood
gislature, and was giving these manufacturers an unfair alone in that opinion ; for his own part, he (Lord Howick)
advantage over their competitors—an advantage which ! never saw a Bill go through the House with more unanimous
was obtained beyond the ordinary power, and in a man- assent. If that measure was right and well-founded there was an
tier fatal to the health of the female adults so employed. ' end of the principle that had been said so much about. Now,
He had received several delegations from the manufacturers if they were prepared to maintain that principle, if they were
himself, and he could state to the Howe positively that several really prepared to carry it out, they must go this length—that
of the manufacturers paying the largest. amount of wages were 1 if a man was inclined to sell himself for a slave, he should be
' favourable to the clause limiting the hours of-female labour in I allowed to do so.—( Hear, hear.) He was persuaded, if the
factories to twelve hours. The Hon. Gentleman asked, why law allowed it, such bargains would be made ; as he was per-
continue legislation to interfere with machinery? In the first fectly convinced that in time; of great distress many persons
'place, he had frequently stated to the House that the inter- , would be persuaded by capitalists to go to the colonies in no
ference was contrary to principle. He admitted that the de- ; other character, and that would doubtless have been advan-
parture from the principle led them into greater difficulty ; but I tageous to both parties ; but to sow into society the elements
then it must be remembered, that in labour connected with 'of slavery, would far outweigh any good that could
machinery, the Legislature had a power to interfere which it be obtained. If any principle had been violated
had not in other cases. Upon the more important point, whe- on this subject it was first violated in 1833.—( Hear.) His
•ther they were • justified in that interference, he Hon. Friend agreed to this, and that reduced the question to a
could not state his opinion more succinctly than in the words small compass ; because the question then was, whether the
of the report of Monsieur C. Dupin, in the French Chamber. the measure of 1833 was useful or not ; it was well known it
(The Right Hon. Baronet then quoted the words from the was so, and now the Right Hon. Baronet had stated that the
pamphlet of M. Dupin, but in so low a tone of voice that it Government were prepared to go still farther, and put an end
was impossible to catch more than its import, which we under- to the general principle. In this country the Government
stood to be in advocacy of the restriction of machinery labour had been conducted for a long series of years, much upon this
to twelve hours.) Since the last discussion he had received a t system. He had acted almost entirely upon the principle that
report from Mr. Horner who had inspected several of the • it• was safe to trust to the unaided and undirected efforts. of in-
most extensive of the factories. In nine factories 697 persons dividuals. But looking at the actual state of society, he thought
were on an average employed in each. Of these more than fifty they should see the result of this mistaken policy on the part
per cent. were females, and of the females seventy per ceet. of the Government. There were around them alarming proofs
were above eighteen years of age. 27it per cent. were that something more was required. . He did not blame the ma-
married women. It was important that restriction should be nufacturieg classes particularly. There were equal evils
placed upon the labour of children and young persons and among other classes. There was much also in the condition of
females, but this principle should not be carried to too great an the great masses of the agricultural classes which required the
extent or else it would create a greater evil than it pro- I active attention of the House. But among them the danger was
posed to remedy. The concluding words of the Right Hon. not so pressing ; for various reasons to which he need net then
Baronet were spoken in so:low a tone that they were altogether advert, the danger was not so pressing in these districts as
inaudible ifs the gallery. among the manufacturing population. But when he looked at
Mr. LABOUCHERE rose amid loud cries of " divide." these immense masses of population, gathered—he might say
He said the question before the House was a very plain one— heaped—. together, without any adequate preparations for their
whether it was fitting for the House to assent to a restriction physical or moral welfare, and the utter absence of any regu-
on adult labour which existed in no other country. —( Hear.) lesions for securing them—when he learned the extent of the
He felt bound to record his opinion that it was most unwise, abuses which prevailed there, and of the wretchedness that
inexpedient, and highly injurious to embark in this course. existed, he thought it would have been well, had Parliament
The speech he had just heard only confirmed his former views, earlier interfered, even at the expense of something of the pro-
and he only regretted that her Majesty's Government had in ductive power of the country—even at the expense of some
the first instance introduced a principle so dangerous and inex- sacrifice of its wealth—and have taken some measures to check
pedient.—(Hear.) He frankly admitted that he would not him- the vast increase of population in particular districts, which were
self have brought forward the motion the Hon. and Learned without a corresponding extension of machinery, or regulations
Member for Battened submitted to the House ; but that Hon. for insuring decency, morality, or the blessings of education.—
and Learned Member having done so, he felt boUnd to give it (Hear, hear.) He had heard it stated by the most strenuous
his most cordial support. The Government had firmly and advocates of restriction, that it would have been well if Naha-
, creditably resisted the proposition of a ten hours' clause, which merit had, at the commencement of the manufacturing system,
he thought was fraught with the most imminent danger to the prohibited women and children from working in manufactories
most important interests of this country. He had been at all. He did not share that opinion. On the contrary, he
unwilling to take any course which might increase their , thought that the labour of women and children
was' an
difficulty, but he must now say that he entirely advantage, if its abuses were prevented. The Right Hon.
agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, that the Baronet had concurred in that opinion. It was absolutely ne-
Government had introduced into legislation a most dangerous, cessary that they should do something to restrain the competi-
vague, novel, and unprecedented principle.,--( Hear, hear.) tion of labour, which was driving females and young persons to
The Right Hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to make out a an amount of work totally inconsistent with the due discharge
special case, but in that lie had failed. If we interfered and of their domestic duties. He believed it was absolutely neces-
restricted the hours with regard to adult females, there was no sary that they should so act. If they did not so prevent it, he
sufficient reason why we should not restrict the hours regarding feared that at no distant, day some frightful catastrophe would
males. Why, if this principle were carried out, they must ex- occur, and he trusted they should no longer go on in a course
elude male labour in factories altogether, and stop machinery. of passive helplessness. The Government must take the lead
Was factory labour worse than the average of employments ? in this matter. It was a duty incumbent on theme it being
He thought not. So far from the factory labour being a worse the duty of Parliament ta point out the necessity. The other
species of employment, he thought it was vastly preferable to evening, when the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the
others, and there were many favourable circumstances exclu- Treasury argued against the motion of his Noble Friend, that
sively connected with it. There wits one fact which struck it would be impossible to apply this principle in consequence of
him very forcibly—the immense number of females employed the immense number of trades in which labour would require
in factory labour, in the manufacturing districts, and the pre. I interference, he confessed that so far from this being an objec-
ference these female had for such labour, so much so in tact that tion it only confirmed him in the opinion that such interference
females could not be obtained for domestic employment. In was necessary. He therefore rejoiced that this discussion had
fact, a woman servant could not be got there.—( Hear, hear.) taken place, as it brought forward more prominently the abso-
He thought that was a practical answer to those who talked of lute necessity of looking iato the condition of the people.—
the unwholesomeness, and the disagreeableness, and the ( Cheers.) He trusted that this Bill was but the beginning of
danger of factory labour.—( Hear, hear.) A very clever a wiser, a bolder, and more manly course of policy than they
pamphlet had lately come into his hands, written by Mr. Godby, had hitherto pursued. It was a feeble and hesitating
on factory labour in America, and that intelligent writer beginning, but still it was a commencement, be-
stated that in the factory of the Messrs. Lawrence in New cause in whatever shape the House adopted the Bill,
York, there were 7110 persons employed, many of whom were it recognised the principle that the House ought to
females, and the hours of labour in this factory were from five impose a limitation of the number of hours during which
A.M. until seven Tear., allowing only the intermission of half females ought to labour. He therefore hailed the measure
an hour for meals. Now, there was the freest country in the with satisfaction, not that he regarded it as a perfect measure,
world with females working from five in the morning until but because he approved of the principle of defining by law a
seven at night.—( Hear.) He very much feared that limitation of labour. They could not expect that this measure
if they interfered much further with women's labour in fac- would extirpate the evils arising from competition. They
tories they would drive • hem into other modes of employment, were too deeply rooted to be remedied by it. All that the
less wholesome, and less profitable. If interference could be House could do was to deal with the intensity of the struggle
at all sanctioned, it was in protecting little children—there for employment. He believed that the true remedy for the
protection might be necessary. He was very much struck evil would be to throw open the field of labour by breaking
by the evidence of one of the factory inspectors at Warrington. down the artificial restrictions and barriers which the present
He said there were three kinds of employment there—fustian system imposed upon it. He should, therefore, entertaining
cutters, factory labourers, and pin-head makers. The last was these views, support the measure, whether in the shape it now
an employment of a most revolting description, and he would , stood, or in the shape which he .still hoped it would ultimately
not harrow the feelings of Hon. Members, by going into detail I assume. He believed that it would ultimately, if not imme-
upon it. By the restrictions the Legislature had imposed diately, mitigate the evils which grew out of this intense corn-
upon the labours of women and children, they were driven into petition of labour, and hold out a hope that by degrees it would
this pin-making and fustian cutting, and at these lead to what he thought would be the only complete and effec-
unwholesome and dangerous employments children con- teal improvement, and that they would shortly be driven by
tinned until when ?—until they were of an age at which it to the abolition of those monopolies which, he believed, were
the law permitted them to go into factories.—( Hear, hear.) at the bottom of the whole question.
He mentioned that as showing how restriction, even when Sir ROBERT PEEL said that it was necessary, in the
best intended, had done harm. He was not one of those who first place, clearly to understand what was meant by the
said that they should not modify the principle of free labour ; word principles.—( Hear.) '.here certainly were prin-
but chat he did say was that, when widely departed from, it elides which ought net to be violated by any
did more harm than good.—( Hear, hear.) He had never Legislature. They were founded on moral and social feelings.
given a vote with greater confidence in the justice of the prin. They were the principles enjoined by religion. They were
ciple he was supporting, or with a firmer belief that he was principles which the heart and conscience of every man told
supporting the best interests of the working classes, and the him were concurrent with the dictates of justice and humanity,
general good of the country at large, than the vote he would and by these principles, as he understood them, legislation
that night give in support of the motion of the Hon. and ought to be conducted. There were certain other rules which
were occasionally called principles, which were not founded
Learned Gentleman.—( Cheers. )
Captain ROUS was against all manner of interference with either upon moralihteyeearre long
eligion,bu which had a binding force
us
labour, and thought the Government should not have intro. upon legislation,
experience and observance o
duced the Bill, They had no right to dictate to the master facts told them they were rules concurrent with the dictates of
manufacturers as to who they should employ, or how long prudence, and therefore ought to be the guides of a Leeisla-
thieleme,
calledtu
wciuld have
they would employ them. Why, if they once sanctioned the dbmuittivicidliethhahtetrhaetsheerprtihnocuipglhets,waesrethgeenNeroabl lreulLesoro(fl
principle, it would be extended so that merchants
inspectors getting into their counting-houses, and bankersfuiieio would legislation, were determined not by any innate and intuitive
have their accounts overhauled by these prying •
was another reason why he felt warmly excited upon sueoneseeoofffaw,ht what was right, but were determined by the observ-
Theres, anciilethe conclusions of wisdom, drawn from long
theyrtahl eesratiadi
principles,th retfoilrde, thata:l t
haenyy neauenttmwe nu!
this subject. It was this :—Having broken through a prin- experience. 4
ciple, they would have to carry out their new-fangled theories was conformablgeenwnei
by a whole host of new functionaries. Already. they had new this, that theirihoant
oughtsuch
police in almost every town, county police, factory inspectors, the general rule to which experiencetli; general tlhegirslatt
and sub-inspectors, and now they would be compelled to have conform ; and the question in these cases was always this—
an enormous addition to the list of their salaried servants. Will the practical good derived from any particular
Thus would their expenses increase as they limited the hours enactment, in a particular case, countervail the 'is
of labour and diminished the means of meeting those expenses. of that enactment? Now, he contended, that it was a evils
good
The consequence would be pressure beyond endurance, bank- general rule for them to observe, to leave persons tojudgefor
ruptcy, and the best of their capitalists flying with their money, themselves what was the most profitable mode of employing
their industry, and their skill, to other lands.—( Hear, hear.) their labour. He thought there was another general ru'e re-
In conclusion, he begged leave to say it was easy to be free commended, not merely by religion, but by the strong dictates
with other people's money—( Hear, hear)—easy to make them- of prudence and experience, namely, that they should leave
selves popular at other people's expense.—(Hear, hear.) He parents to judge what was the best mode both of educating
should, therefore, support the amendment of the Hon. and and employi g their children. That was a rule which he ap-
Leareed Member for Bath, and he only wished he had gone to prehended they must respect. They might be convinced of
the extent of ;Sieving that the Bill be proceeded with that day the advantage of the rich man sending his son to school—that
six months. it was very wrong he should be allowed to waste his time
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said it appeared to him that many without receiving at least the rudiments of science and learn-
Hon. Members were too apt to forget that the operatives of ing. Then why not pass a law compelling the rich man to
this country were not free agents, and that they were not in a educate his son ? They did not legislate, not because they did
condition to protect themselves.—( Hear, hear.) Such was not believe that legislation might improve the condition of the
the helpless condition both of the working man and the working child, but because they thought it better that the law should
woman, and, therefore, it was the duty of the Legislature to respect the great principles of liberty, and trust to the parents
step in, the same as it had before stepped in, to shield those for the education and control over the child. He agreed that
who were not able to protect themselves. The cause of the the state of the working classes was unsatisfactory. He ad-
present state of things was to be found in this, that the labour mitted that the Legislature had not sufficiently attended to
market was overcharged, The present Bill before the House their moral condition. He admitted that the accumulation
would materially diminish this evil ; and if it were for this of wealth was not the only subject for the consideration of the
alone, he should hold it to be a good and useful measure. The Legislature. He admitted that the moral strength and power
Horse, also, in considering this question, ought to bear in mind of the country did not depend entirely upon its wealth. But
that the poor man had lost his claim, his vested right, to sue- he thought he must always ask himself this question. When
cour in the hour of trouble by the poor-law, and this without you begin legislation nothing is easier than to lay down general
regaining his hold upon the land, so that he never would rules ; but he would ask, would their intermeddling and inter-
b: in a condition to maintain his own rights or' ference with the rights and liberties of the people be likely to
P; osttion or to make a good fight with his em- conduce, not merely to their wealth, but to their social comfort
ployers. was said that wages would fall if and happiness? He admitted that the social happiness and
a Bill restricting the hours of labour passed that comforts of the people ought to be regarded. Loom ing at the
House. He (Mr. Crawford). had always understood that manufacturing population, and seeing that they had no means
wages were regulated by supply and demand. That had hi- of amusement, no means of relaxation—seeing that what once
therto always been the argument there. He would ask then were villages were become immense towns, and were yet sub-
of the manufacturer's, if they would enter into an engagement jeet merely to the same discipline as they possessed when they
that wages should hereafter continue as now if there was no in- were mere villages ; when he saw spaces overcrowded, yet
terference with the hours of labour, and if they would not con- with no portion of that space appropriated to amusement and
sent to do that, how could they assert that wages would fall ? recreation ; that they had nothing to divert them from con-
Under siren eireumstances he did feel that both: humanity and slant labour except indulgence in sensual habits, he thought
justice
demanded that protection should be extended to the the Legislature might, with great advantage, apply the public
working *Awes. The lion, erg! Learned Member (Mr. Roe- wealth to the means of promoting the recreations and amuse-
buck) had said, if they really wished to serve the working menus of the people. That would be a perfectly legitimate in-
classes—if they were sincere in their desire le alleviate their terference on the part of the Government. But that
sufferings—let there be invested with power to come into that was a perfectly different question from the present.
House and legislate for themselves. (Mr. Crawford) —( Hear.) For he must ask himself, should he improve
heartily echoed that sentiment ; and be would add; that if it their moral condition, should be to elevate them in the social
were carried out into practice, he had Lot a doubt on his own smile, if, by any enactment, he controlled their own applica-
mind that the Bill of the Noble Lord ( Ashley) would instan. tion to their labour? He conceded to the Noble Lord, if he asked
taneously pass. For these reasons he should support the Bill him whether he should 'prefer that a child should work ten
of that Noble Lord, and oppose the motion of the Hon. and hours instead of twelve, he would tell the Noble Lord at once
Learned Member for Bath, and in doing this he was satisfied that he should infinitely prefer his working ten. If the Noble
he should he acting in perfect accordance with the feelings and Lord asked him whether he should wish to see mothers work-
wishes of those whom he had the honour to represent in that ing eight hours a day instead of ten, and able to devote some
House, portion of their time to attendance to domestic cares and the
Mr. ROSS (Belfast) said the delusion which had prevailed superintendence of their families, he would tell the Noble
/ ofj labour, b o
theiru andpr e
se then t increased
; hut attendance
after
ha t),
inn
cy their
addeo mt
as;
upon this subject amongst the work-people of the town he had Lord that he perfectly admitted he should prefer the shorter
state
the honour to represent, had now passed away. The otors per
had not left the matter to their overseers, but had g mone amongsttic diop
their work-people in person, and talked the matter over fairly admission, did it necessarily follow- that it would be for the
with them. He had eitpledeed the whole matter to them, and advantage of that woman to say to her that the should not
the consequence was, that whilst the seen had declared that they work more than ten hours a day, and preseribe to her by en-
should beglad to have more time to themselves, they had ex- actment, the exact mode in which she should dispose of her
pressed their conviction that a limitation of hours must lead (Si labour ? It was true, they might apply the principle in the case
a reductions of wages, and to this they were not prepared to submit, of factories i but the Noble Lord opposite rejoiced in this
They -wished things to remain as they were, and he therefore felt limited appli ation
_of the principle, because he saw that it
it his duty to (WOW the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for must he much further extended, He (Sir Robert
Dorset shire. Peel) said the ether night that there were count,.
Lord HOWICK said he did not rise to diseeee the ten or less trades and occupations imposing heavier burdens
tweleeshonr question ; in common fairness to the feloble Loyd upon the labourer than the work in mills and factories
re
(Ashley) that should be deferred until the time arrived fogsimposP4 liipt4i fectory. labourers. If the Noble Lord's prin.
taking his amendment into consideration. The Hon. and eipic were gogO, and eeuid he g eted? the Noble Lord
Learned Member for Batt) had nrsad arguments which, though ought to extend his interference to thero also. He (Sir R.
specious' he could easily sheer he he girdle'. But Peel), therefore, said, beware how they applied it too precipiS
he would refrain from doing so at that meneent, ensi Wets" to factory labour, because, if they did so, they must, at
online himself strictly to the questlote before the Hoese, the game tier, rate yaf tot tY giye a permission to restrictions
He was erjeloes to know how the Right Hon. Baronet opposite en other kiricle o, labourmorronerO4 au Havrel)4ond-their
would reconcile his eppesitien with the argument which he control. lend hew labour
he 'l_ Sir ft: Peel) Met ? —The Noble
used
detips, because in that debate Lord wished them In go on tceeefeed their prineiPle beicrect the
priced gs being against all principle.
Righttuhsoedin th effHo
no.o sßaronet
e tatobjectede to the aHaendroept of his twenty kinds of labour to which it might be apfdiedain tfie two
Noble Now it had more hisedred ethers to which it ought to be applied.: *The :sals'le'
irsetery
424 ( Howick) that he would have taken the 1 ord sal the prspr4 eaet.irg oplv Showed him the Oeatef
coecoutirsrerehdetphithd done, namely, that of stating that his measure necessity for Parliament to act poi ;lily ethitrolithg
was a violatiod of princoplis as Well as tisat i•he -Noble Lord. labour, but all other kinds of labour. •He (Sir R. Peel) said
He must confess that he was unprepared for sueh AtateNt4.4 that waginnossibie. He said, that thon•4ll they might apply it
from llVMster of the Crown. Were they, he would ask, to be to'gregt Atiirldirtii`s and ',large itvors,.s 00i
told
yet ke sedeieed to pass the measure? No .v what was under control, yet, to 0116 heweeetogs) 'to estorld)i:ap
understood
a genera. 4 pearesiele; It was come conclusion of any
this, an and
by
y tailor, who worked his hundreds of men for 15' belies
drawn from a multitude of facts, upon which vies leueded what a day, to go to the room of the sempstress, who worked her
fuliirothne.
himself.
etlhf.e Gu'oeveeoinn
was wggiljered the wise mode of legislation. - three or
Howick) was prepatve4 ceur iema;ce for hours e, day—if they
- were about to establish a s stem of irt' viduai logo ~ ':^.. #"il
idered that it involved the violation of no sound prisecepie of i d' 'd •
ment measure than the Itt9igliget
iect7 what was the principle which it was said had • segsreastaus e • ._ . . in di ual tyrennv. Seme good might be produced by effect-
ing. a reduetioa labour from sixteen hours to twelve • but in
been violateal Nipl.ll.(l :t!,tte q, in language far better than the end they•: ••:
es namely, in wrgris of the author of li h ors own, would entiredv'eningelhe Cliarietei of the Eng-
the " Wealth of Nations .
• " " The its eijty f v s people. They would fuin4 them to' depend entirely upon
is
P P e ery sssan the Government, aid they wouldr then "have indeed t support
an
labour ;it is sacred and inviolate. The property an army of domestic and sob t ,do,,
; i)::gog magi lies the strength and dexterity of his hands ; protection 2gairit -.slunepegtors • inspec ors, ar the 9.n_l.
afieh interference and tyranny would be
4 If any erne interfere Vith ie it je a
:violation. of every just that it would become • - '
• • e? " aereed that the prceic ee was just so odious to the whole mass of society,
and right prinem •i• re: 14, e that it would be ins •bi Then
one, and one that could not-be pervertee. Men could fudge the exc t' for poss. e. en, when were they to make
.ep tens, cif i.hat thigh was e general rule, hey were
for themselves better than any Governmeet, as to the employ- bound not merely to gergiger eshee ta y
Inept of their labour and capital, and the wisest. thing to lead to twelve hours, but` Pine? Of limithig tnelpotAir
whether they would by doing so really