The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

lation were necessary on that subject, having at their cone-
mind the first legal assistance in England and Ireland, awl
also the advice of persons best acquainted with the real affairs
in both countrses—lie could not but believe, that with such
it would nit have been altogether impossible
that a measure for effecting such an improvement
as legislation could effect might have been ready at the time
when Parliament again met. He said that was an opinion
which he could net help feeling somewhat inclined to entertain.
At the same time, he was far from venturing to condemn the
issuing of that commission ; it was possible that the difficulties
of the subject might be greater than he though and that this
s'ep might have a necessity. He thought it was an unfortunate
necessity; bet, still, he admitted that such a necessity might
have existed But the conclusion be drew from it
was this —that if all they could do towards reme-
dying the physical di-tress of the Irish people, was
to afford them the distant prospect of improvement
held out to them by this much talked of commission,
he thought it far more necessary that they should pro-
vide other measures, which he believed were more indispen-
sable. It appeared to him that the more they considered the
actual state of Ireland, the more ground there was for coming
to the conclusion. that they could no, efface discontent from
that country by the mere removal of its physical distress. No
doubt great poverty affected the masses ; no doubt the struggle
which existed there to obtain the means of even the most miser-
able existence, entered deeply into the causes of their discon-
tent. But he was persuaded that this bitterness was greatly
increased, and never could have risen to the point at
which it had then arrived, if there had not raiikied
in the minds of the people a constant sense of injury and wrong:
Hence, even if her Majesty's Government had been prepared
to deal with the physical evils of Ireland in a much larger and
more comprehensive manner than they were prepared to .do—
had they been prepared to submit at once a law in relation to
landlord and tenant—had they been prepared to propose the
setting on foot a plan for public works, on an extensive scale,
were they prepared with a well considered system of colonisa-
tion, even were they prepared with all these measures, still he
should have said that even these would not have produced the
effect desired, they would not have their influence unless ac-
companied by other measures calculated to remove from the
minds of the people of Ireland the galling sense of injury
and injustice, more especially with 'reference to the
partial treatment of the religion to which they belonged.
Unless they were prepared to do something in this respect,
every other measure they could adopt would be unavailing.
Was it possible the Irsh people could fail to feel most bitterly
the pressure of the manner in which they had dealt with the
religion to which the great burly of the people belonged ? Was
it possible that the partial treatment of that ancient faith, to
which the bulk of the people clung with sech attachment—
( Hear)—when compared with the treatment given to all other
faiths, should not create in their minds a constant rankling, and
sense of injestice, which, while it existed, they could never
hope to wits their affections? The Right Hon. Gentleman had
said that, since Roman Catholic Emancipation was carried,
the principle of religious equality had been fully en-
forced in Ireland. He (Lord Howick) was at a loss
to understand the grounds upon which he maintained that
argument. What were the simple facts of the case? The
Roman Catholic Church was the ancient Church of Ireland.
Some three centuries ago, or rather more, the endowments
were, by their act, transferred from it to the Protestant
Church—the Protestants being a small minority of the popula-
tion—the great body of the people still adhering to their ancient
faith. Further, the great body of the people, from whom they
wrested their endowments for their religious wants, was the
poorest population in Europe, while those to whom they
assigned the Church revenues were the wealthier classes. Nor
was this all. They added insult to injury. Even to the Pres-
byterians, who were, by the letter of the law in Ireland, as
much Dissenters as the Roman Catholics, they gave a share of
the bounty of the State. The only part of the popula-
tion they left unprovided with the means of religious
instruction was the great bulk of the people—that
class which stand most in need of pecuniary assistance.
Now he would ask them was that just? Did they think that
Ireland could be reconciled to the continuance of that state
of things, by such arguments as they were in the habit of
hearing in that House, and which they had heard that night
from the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw)?
Let them recollect that it was in vain for them to reason ever
so closely in their own minds, unless they could persuade the
Irish people to agree with them. They might reason as
closely as the best logicians that ever came from their univer-
sities. Their premises might be unshaken, and their chain of
reasoning unbroken—all that might be the case, yet if they
failed to convince the minds of the Irish people they were as
far from their object as ever. What they had to consider was
not whether their arguments were good, but whether they
would weigh with the Irish people. He knew full well that
he was wearying the House, but he could not avoid entering
into one or two of those arguments which had been brought
forward. One of the first respecting the Church Establish-
ment, which had been advanced by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, rested upon the Act of Union, and he
found great fault with his ( Lord Howick's) friend
for saying that the fifth article of the Act of
Union ought to be expunged.—( Hear, hear.) What
was the ground of the Right Hon. Gentleman's objection to
that? Why, that the Parliament of Ireland. which agreed to
that provision, was exclusively and purely Protestant, and that
they never would have agreed to the union else. They might
have been purely Protestant, but they were certainly pure in
no other sense.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Wilat was called
the Irish Parliament was the most notoriously corrupt assembly
that had ever met, and could have no pretence to have ever re-
presented the opinions of the Irish people. It had been said—
and he believed the Right Hon. Gentleman would say so him-
-elf—that as a representation of the Irish people i' was the
veriest farce and delusion that had ever been acted ; and to say
that that Parliament, because it was purely Protestare, was at
liberty to tie the great English and Irish nations to all per-
petuity—( Hear, hear)—and combine in making one thing for
ever binding in their consciences, was to maintain a system
which shook every principle of natural justice. When the
Right Hon. Gentleman said that the union was a ground for
maintaining the Church Establishment, he only furnished an
argument to the Hon, and Learned Member fur Cork in favour
of the repeal of the union ; but as an argument to reconcile the
Irish people to that Church Establishment, he must indeed have
the simplicity of a child to have for a moment believed it.
One of the chief ornaments of the Established Church said that
the only ground upon which an Established Church could be
maintained, was on that of conferring benefit on the great body
of the people.—( Hear.) Some of the ablest and best defenders
of our Church admitted that it should be maintained only so far
as it promoted the spiritual welfare of the great body of the
people ; that it should be supported for the advantage of the
greater number. When the anomalous position of the Irish
people was mentioned to the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secre-
tary of State for the Home department, how did he answer ?
• Oh, yes," said he, " but the great majority of the people of
Great Britain and Ireland belong to the Established Church
and by the Act of Union it is the United Chin ch of England
and Ireland." That was the most satisfactory explanation the
Right Hon. Baronet gave—but did he think that the people of
Ireland would not see through this shallow sophistry ?—( Hear,
hear.) Did lie remember how much that argument prevailed
when they attempted to force Episcopacy on Scotland?—( Hear,
hear,) Why, ii he were not very much mistaken, he heard
the Right Hon. Gentleman himself say, some years ago, in
one of those highly wrought and beautifully expressed passages
of which he was so much a master, the chief title of the people
of Scotland to the admiration of the world, was the manner in
which they resisted Episcopacy in Scotland.—( Hear, hear. )
He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had told them some-
thing of the Scotch people having trusted to their good clay-
mores.—( Hear, hear.) The memory of the Irish was not less
quick or retensive than his, and they would naturally nay, what
was good for Scotland must be good for Ireland. —( Hear, hear. )
The present condition of the Irish Church was the
best argument for Repeal, and was contrary to every principle
of natural justice. It was sacrificing the interests of the great
majority of the people to a mere fraction of the people.
( Hear, hear.) They mistook the interests of the feeling that
existed in Ireland, and underrated the strength of their resent-
ment. He firmly believed that the Irish people might have
been induced to submit to the Established Church had not the
safety of that Church been made the pretext for maintaining
cruel abuses. —( Hear, hear.) The Established Church had
been made the pretext for maintaining the penal laws, which
were a disgrace to civilization and the blackest stain on the
pages of English history.—( Hear, hear.) They should not
forget that year after year Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite
came down to that House, and when equality of civil rights
was demanded for the Catholics of Ireland they resisted them,
alleging that the Established Church would be shaken to its
foundation.—( Hear, hear.) Oh, how short-sighted was the
Right Hon. Baronet when he used such a pretext as that.—
( Hear, hear.) Did he not recollect that they would fill the
people of Ireland with detestation of that Church? After
Catholic Emancipation had been granted was not that Church
.till put forward in the most offensive manner as the opponent
of the liberties and privileges of the Irish people. For the sake
of that same Church they had, even within the last few years,
refused justice on the matter of the franchise, and on the re-
eulation of municipalities—they would not equalise them with
those of England for fear of the Church Establishment being
endangered.—( Hear, hear.) Those things, he repeated,
had sunk deeply into the hearts of the Irish people.
Did they think that three centuries of oppression, for the
purpose of strengthening the bulwarks and outworks of that
Church, had not produced its necessary effects en the minds
of the Irish people? Let us put ourselves in the position of the
Irish people, and suppose that they were the stronger country,
utd that they wonted to for their Church upon us, would we
'tot resist them? Yes; and the Right Hon. Baronet would be
the first to offer that resistance, and resist it too with the clay-
more. Could the Right Hon. Beronet put his hand on his
heart, and say he would submit to such an imposition lie-
iently.—(Hear, hear.) For his (Lord Howick's) part, he
aise that he would not submit to sueb an injustice—he
would not tamely bow to the yoke. Now, if they would net
submit to a Roman Catholic Church Establishment, they being
Protestants, how could they expect that the Irish people would
endure it ? —(Hear, hear ) The Hon. and Learned Member
for the University of Dublin, in adverting to the subject, said
he had taken his stand upon the great ground of religious
truth. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Now, if there was
any one thing more calculated than another to aggravate the
Irish people, it was such a declaration. That was as much as
to say the Roman Catholics were wrong, and we were
right. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Yes, yes (conti-
nued the Noble Lord), of course the Hon. and Learned
Member thinks so ; and so did he (Lord Howick) firmly be-
lieve ; but what he complained of was legislating upon that
opinion.— (Hear.) Catholics had been admitted to an equality of
civil rights. And the Legislature should not tell them by
their legislation that their creed was false and idolatrous,
which in effect the Hon. and Learned Member for the Uni-
versity of Dublin had done.—( Hear, hear.) Roman Catholics
were as conscientious in their religious belief as Protestants, and
the Legislature should not either insinuate their disbelief at
that conviction er scoff at that religion, by proclaiming one
creed as " the ground of religious truth," and treating all who
dissented from it as if they were unworthy of consideration.—
( Hear, hear.) What right could he have to assume the
privilege of judging upon the respective merits of the Roman
Catholic and the Protestant religions? Did he not remember
that more than half the Christian world adhered to that faith,
that it had sent its missionaries to the most remote parts of the
world, who by their exertions promoted the good of their fellow-
men and the glory of God, and who, by their sufferings
and the privations they endured, gave ample proof of their sin-
cerity ?—( Hsar, hear, and cheers.) He asserted that they
should now do full and ample justice to the people of Ireland,
and that at the earliest possible period. If they had granted
Catholic Emancipation at an earlier period, and had shown
after it a sense of confidence in the Irish people—if some years
ago they had consented to the Appropriation clause—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear")—such a formidable systematic agitation
would not. now pervade that country. He warned that House
before, that by the withdrawal of this clause from the Irish
Church Bill they left behind them a much larger demand, and
one which would come seeedily upon them. If they had only
consented to some compromise at that time the Roman Ca:.
tholics would at once have agreed to it:; but they refused, and,
he regretted to say, were supported by the prejudices of the
people of England. As they had then yielded nothing to the
people of Ireland, so now that people would yield nothing to
them, and perfect and e pal justice must be ceded to
Ireland. He knew that in certain quarters he was
likely to meet with little sympathy, but still he
thought it to be his duty to tell the whole truth,
and he again asserted that the time was now come
when they should render full and impartial justices to Ireland,
and there were many modes in which this might be done. In
the first place, in England the Protestants formed the majority
amongst the different religious persnesiens, and there the Pro•
testant religion was by law established ; in Scotland the ma-
ajority belonged to the Presbyterian, and there that was the Est-

Were they not aware that the machinery of a free Govern-
ment was fur the express purpose of giving force and effect
to the deliberate and express will of the great body of the
people. Trial by jury, the elective franchise, and the whole
machinery of a free Government were constructed for no
other purpose, and when they attempted to administer the
forms of freedom against the will of the people, it was a task
which never could be satisfactorily performed. It was then
that the institutions of the jury failed them, and the elective
franchise became a serious evil. Questions arose in every
turn, in every social relation. The Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Shaw) complained of the Irish landlords having
been treated with injustice. Still he (Lord Howick) thought
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could not deny that in Ire-
land many of the owners of land were unjust
_and oppressive.
The landlord was oppressive to his tenant; and all those
struggles might be traced to the subject of the Church, which
ran through every portion of society. Whatever improvement
they introduced, still if they left this question open, they
would not get rid of the irritation. He came back then to this,
they must be prepared to do justice to the Irish people in this
matter of the Church Establishment, or they would see no ter-
mination to the existing state of that country. The fit would
continue, and the chronic disease would eat into the very vitals
of the country. There was no possible alternative or middle
course in the principle of government upon which they could
act. They could only rule through the affections of the people.
They could not hope to maintain the affections of the people
unless they really did justice to them ; and without the affec-
tions of the people there was but one alternative in governing
the country, and that was by force. If, indeed, it was in their
power to put an end to the forms of freedom—if they abo-
lished trial by jury—if they abolished the elective franchise
—if they could govern Ireland as a great Crown colony by an
order in Council, then he could conceive it possible that this
system could go en. They must abolish the free press—prevent
discussion of all kinds. if they could do this—if it were in
their power to establish such a system as that adopted by
Austria in the Italian provinces, it was possible, perhaps, for
them to return to a state of quiet. They might, by such a system,
drive the people into a state of apathy ; but he thanked God
that it was not in their power to adopt that principle. They
could not abolish the forms of freedom in Ireland, and,
therefore, having those forms of freedom existing, they must
govern in a spirit of freedom, or the present excited state
of societe must continue ; and he could assure them, that if
they did allow it so to continue, they must be prepared
for worse results. The present system was dreadful, arid was
corrupt-mg ie,rythiiig that was good in itself. Even an ex-
tension of education would only make the Irish people more
sensible of the injustice under which they laboured. Even if an
improvement were to take place as to,the wealth and resources
of the country, he believed that under the present system, it
would have no other effect than to make the present struggle
a permanent one, to which there could be no end. It would
not terminate even if that lamentable catastro-
phe were to occur, the hope of which
he feared there were men guilty enough to entertain, if the ex-
existing discontent were to break out into open rebellion, and if
the flames of resistance were to be crushed. He believed that
even if than awful calamity were to come upon us, when the
resistance was over, and tranquillity restored, they would be in
precisely the same condition a 3 before. Nay it would be worse
than before, for all hope of reconciliation with
the Irish people would then be at an end.
There would then be no possible termination to the struggle,
except, perhaps, by that which under such circumstances would
be inevitable—not the repeal of the legislative union, but the
entire severance of the two kingdoms. Such a fatal result could
alone terminate so disastrous a struggle. God grant that they
might not, in their party divisions and party distrac-
tions, continue until it was too late for them to
apply a remedy. Before he concluded, having thus stated
his views upon this momentous question—before he concluded,
he had a few words to say upon the terms of the motion then
before the House. His Noble Friend opposite, the Secretary
for Ireland, last alight said that this vote for a Committee was
not with a view to inquiry, but for the purpose of casting a
censure upon the Government, to be immediately followed, if
successful, by their resignation. It was perfectly true that, by
his vote, he meant to imply such an understanding of the meaning
of his Noble Friend. He thought it was absolutely necessary that
Parliament should proceed without delay to adopt measures of
a far more comprehensive kind, and of a far different charac-
ter, from those promised by her Majesty's Government. This
was what he felt was implied by the vote, and he believed that
it was a parliamentary and constitutional method of ask-
ing the House of Commons to express its opinion.
He admitted also that the House could not express that opinion
without in a certain degree implying censure upon her Ma-
jesty's Government, and he admitted that, in the ordinary
course of affairs, the adoption of such a vote by that house
would naturally he followed by their resignation. At the
same time, his did most solemnly assure the House
that he did not support that motion because he wished
to achieve any party triumph, or because he
desired that her Majesty's Government should be
dismissed from power. That was not his object.—(Cries, of
" Oh, oh," and cheers from the Opposition benches.) but
believing measures to be absolutely necessary, even whether
they remained in power or not, he must ask the House to sup-
port the motion. He looked upon this question as one which,
like the Catholic question, could never be carried by a mere
party triumph. He believed that the settlement of
this question could only be accomplished, as the
Catholic question had been accomplished, by the union of the
two great parties which divided that House and this country
—to sacrifice pre-conceived opinions and mutual hostilities,
and to combine in doing that which was necessary for the
welfare of Ireland and the safety of the empire. He was per-
suaded that this was the only mode by which those measures
could be carried—in fact, it was only the Catholic question
over again, in another shape. Precisely the same difficulties
and dangers which they hail then to struggle with had now arisen
for them to encounter. He hoped the Government would
seriously consider how great was the responsibility which was
now placed upon them.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that they
on this side of the House could not carry this question
against their will. Had his object been to overturn the
Government, he felt that the House would understand that
he would not have expressed in so earnest a manlier the
opinion he had that night avowed. He was not ignorant
of the great mass of prejudice—of honest prejudice
no doubt, that would be arrayed against him for doing so. He
wished to compromise no man by what he had said, but he was
persuaded that what he had said was the truth, and if they
calmly reflected upon it they would feel it to be so—that in this
conjuncture—this awful conjuncture of the fate of the British
empire, it was their most solemn dury to their God and their
eeuntry, so consider how the present state of Ireland could
be terminated by other means than tho4e that he Lad
pointed out, and it they had no other means to suggest, which had
a rational prospect of success, not to reject that offered to them.
Having said this, it only remained for him to apologise sin-
cerely to the House for the time he had taken up, and to
express his deep regret at his utter inability to give utterance
to the half of what he felt upon such a subject as this.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but the House
did not divide.
On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, we found
Sir R. PEEL addressing the House. He said—For the
Noble Lord who last session said that he was not prepared to
endanger the Protestant Establishment in Ireland—( Cheers)
—and who, in the course of the present session, said that the
nearest approach that could be made to the satisfaction of the
Catholics, would be to double the grant to Maynooth—
(Cheers)—and who now proposed to have three sepa-
rate establishments in that country—a Protestant, a
Presbyterian, and a Roman Catholic—for him now to
taunt Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of
the House, with not answering the speech of the
Noble Lord who had last sat down was to say
the least of it indiscreet, if not uncharitable.—(Cheers. ) For
his part, he ( Sir R. Peel), seeing that a large portion of the
House was unwilling that the debate should be closed in the
present stage, would vote for the adjournment.—(Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL only rose to say that he did not
agree in the reply of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Laughter.)
Mr. MILNES said that although many Members on that
side of the House did not think it would become their position
in it, to obtrude themselves at that hour of the night, yet it by
no means followed that they did not wish to speak before the
debate concluded.—( A laugh.)
Sir GEORGE GREY did not rise to oppose the mo-
tion for adjournment. But as he had voted so
frequently with the present Government against re-
peated adjournments of one debate, he must say that it was
with surprise he witnessed the silence of the opposite side,
when his Noble Friend concluded.—( Hear, hear. ) As it was
known that the debate could not arrive at its legitimate conclu-
sion until after the First Lord of the Treasury should have
spoken upon it, no gentleman on that (the opposite)
side could be expected to rise after his Noble Friend.—
( Hear, hear ) He wished it, therefore, to be understood that
the adjournment was not at the wish of that side.—(Oh, oh. )
The SPEICER then put the question, and the debate was
adjourned without a division ; and, there being no further busi-
ness, the House adjourned shortly after, at Ten Minutea to
Twelve o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 15.
Their Lordships met at Fivo o'Clock.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Chi-
chester against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.

THE CATHOLIC OATH.
Lord STOMITON withdrew *he motion, of which he had
given notice, for bringing under the consideratien of their
ordships the construction of the Roman Catholic Oath.

Wished Church; and as the Roman Catholic religion was the LORI) DETNDON ALD'S INVENTIONS.
faith of the majority of the people of Ireland, so also he Lord BROUGHAM postponed the motion, of which he had
thought that three centuries ought not to have been allowed given notice, respecting the petition presented by Lord Dun-
to pass away without the endowment of that Church in that donald.
country. He thought. that they ought in this case, for the Lord MINTO took that opportunity of bearing testimony
peace of Ireland, to make a provision for the spiritual wants of ea the value of one of the. inventions of the Noble Lord—an
all classes of the population of the kingdom, according to their improvement in the application of steam machinery to vessels
number. He knew all those subjects were open to much ob- I )f war. It had been subjected to a trial of four or five years,
jection, and environed with many difficulties—( Hear, hear)— and the experiment had been highly satisfactory, both as to
but still he felt convinced that some such course of legislation its operation and durability.
must be adopted in order to insure peace and tranquillity in POOR•LAW UNIONS.
Ireland ,and win the affections of a gallant and generous na- The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he should
tion. The House should remember, that out of eight tomorrow move for a Select Committee to consider the expe-
millions and a half inure than six millions were diency of making some provision for religious worship and
Roman Catholics ( Hear, hear) and should grant spiritual instruction in the poor-law union houses • both in
to them the sante right as those which they were willing to ac- England and Wales.
TURNIPIRE TRUSTS.
cord to persons of any other religious persuasion. He knew that
Catholics and Protestants differed on doctrinal points, but still i
The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice of the inten-
'he knew it was the fundamental principle of all Christian sects lion of the Government te, introduce a Bill, in the eoursa of
to "do unto others as you would be done by," and all he asked the present session, on the subject of Turnpike Trusts. All the
from her Majesty's Government was, act upon this text.— Reports on the subject not laving been received, the Bill could
( Loud cheers.) He knew they had many difficulties to contend not be introduced immediately.with, and that they had to battle against the long-cherished STATE OF IRELAND,—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
prejudices of the people of this country ; but still the peace of On the motion for resuming-
the adjourned debate,
Ireland imperatively demanded that those difficulties should be Earl FORTESCUE rose, and said that he understood a
boldly met. The Right Hon. Baronet had acknowledged that statement had been made in another place which affected
the cause of all their differences was the question of the Este- him personally, and also the character of the Go-
blishied Church. He ( Lord Howick ) certainly agreed with v:rnment, at whose bead he was in Ireland. A
him, that it was at the bottom of all their differences.—( Hear, person high in office had stated that, within three
hear. and cheers. ) Was not the House aware that until this months before the late Government went out of office, seven
questitin was settled they could never rely upon the Roman stipendiary magistrates had bean appointed in addition to the
Catholics of liel .nd? for they be ;continually existing establishment of stipendiary magistrates in Ireland.
seoking to overthrow this system, and ne power could ever Before he proceeded further, he begged to inform their Lord-
induce them to submit to the pi esent state of that Church. ships that he alone was responsible far those appointments.
Upon this subject the whole Roman Catholic body were united, The Government with which he had been connected had no-
and had no trust in that Government, nor, indeed, could the thing to do with them. On reference to the official documents,
Government rely upon them. This unfortunate question met he found it was perfectly correct that seven new appointments
them in every instance—it was even connected with the jury- were made between the loth of June and the 28th of August,
box.—(C, ies of " Hear, hear," and loud cheers.) The late in- IS.V. It was not, however, true that those appointments
dictment which had been just tried in Ireland could not be said were made in addition to the existing number of stipendiary
to be so much preferred against Mr. O'Connell as against the magistrates. Daring the time he had mentioned three
Irish people.—(Loud cheers.) That eminent statesman, Mr. vacancies occurred, and those vacancies were filled up. That
Burke, in his speech upon the American question, which had lee four out of the seven. Of those four, one was appointed
been so frequently quoted, said it would net do to apply the usual I in the city of Armagh, at the earnest request of Lord Gneford,
narrow and pedantic rules of criminal jurisdiction, and that he in consequence of a dreadful murder that was committed in the
knew not how to bring an indictment against a whole people. neighbourhood. Another was sent to Tralee, in consequence of
But her Majesty's Government were more clever than Mr. Burke, disputes continually occurring, which terminated in riotsamongst
for they had solved this truly difficult problem. He should the fishermen in the neighbourhood. Another was appointed
remind his Hon. an I Learned Friend that it was a fundamental to a wild coast district in Donegal, in consequence of
principle in the administration of justice to have an inn- disturbances having taken place between the people and
partial jury. if a foreigner was to be tried he would have the revenue police. He did not exactly recollect why
the right to claim that one-half of the jury should be foreigners, the other was appointed, but he knew that the appoint-
and was there less reason for imputing• prejudice to the jury ment was made under equally urgent circumstances.
upon those tri&s than there was to doubt the impartiality of a As these were the facts of the case, he trusted that this would
London jury in the ease of a foreigner. Mr. O'Connell and be a sufficient answer to the statement made in another place.
his friends knew that there was a still stronger feeling against He would now turn to the immediate subject under discussion.
them, yet they could not avail themselves of the privilege to He could not agree with those who said that this motion of his
which every foreigner was entitled. He felt convinced that Noble Friend was ill-timed. No one could doubt its
if the Church questioM were settled there would be an end of importance—and its importance, he conceived, was a
that combination which at present existed in Ireland, and per- sufficient justification for its full and immediate consideration.
haps the Right lion. Baronet would find numbers amongst He stated that much of the excitement of the people arose from
the Catholic population of Ireland who would be as staunch the attempts made to restrict the franchise. But for those
supporters of his sliding-scale, and of the principle of agricul. attempts, these great meetings would not, in all probability,
tural protection as he would for Church Reform—(Laughter) have been held. lie cited the large amount of the repeal rent,
—but while it was left unsettled it would absorb all others• during the last year, compared with former years, as a proof
•

of the great discontent of the people. He felt bound
to render a due meed of praise to Mr. O'Connell fur the
manly stand which he made against the propagation of
the doctrines which were endeavoured to be spread through-
out Ireland by the Chartists. During the time when he
(Earl Fortescue) was Lord-Lieutenant, the amount of
the repeal rent was scarcely more than 2001. for each week,
but during the administration of the present Government, it
had risen to nearly 2,000/. Mr. O'Connell had refused to accept
the highest situation which had been offered to him, but in the
instance of his son's appointment, he (Earl Fortescue)
would say that Mr. O'Connell never made the slightest
application. On the subject of the Irish Church
he thought that there could be but one opinion.
After some further observations, which were quite inaudible,
the Noble Lord concluded, as we understood him, by a wish
that the present discussions might tend to the benefit and
welfare of Ireland. As he sat down, some Noble Lord moved
that the House proceed to the Order of the Day.—(Laughter. )
Lord HADDINGTON said the Noble Lord complained
of a statement that had been made elsewhere, of the dismissal
of the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland. It had been stated
that the Government removed ten of them, and it was in
order to defend the Government from that charge that the
statement was made. The number of stipendiary magistrates
in the early part of 1841 was 59, and between June and the
28th of August, that being the day on which the Noble
Viscount opposite (Lord Melbourne) left office, seven
additional magistrates were appointed. As soon as the
present Government came into office, those seven were
removed, reducing the number again to fifty-nine, that
being the number for which the House of Commons had given
a vote. At present there were sixty, being one more stipendiary
magistrate than in 1839, 1840, and up to the 15th June, 1841.
He did not think therefore that her :Majesty's present Govern-
ment were liable to the imputations which had been at-
tempted to be cast upon them of setting aside stipendiary ma-
gistrates for party purposes. Since the time when the present
Government came into office four vacancies had taken place,
and tbose vacancies had been filled up by the appointment of
four of those gentlemen who had been appointed by the late
Government. He had nothing pvtieular to say against the
motion at present before their Lordships, he could not, how-
ever, say so much for the speech of his Noble Friend who in-
troduced the motion. It was filled with invective and recrimi-
nation. He would wish to know for what they were to
quarrel ? Why, one was tie subject of the Catholic Clergy.
But this was an old subject which had been mooted long since.
What he thought still was, that the Noble Marquis might
have selected a more opportune time for bringing this matter
before the consideration of their Lordships and the public.
This alleged grievance had been brought before Parliament in
the year 180.5, on which occasion he (the Earl of Haddington)
voted along with the Whigs • for against the Whigs he had
no animus when they brought forward measures such as he
might conincide in. His Noble Friend beside him, (the Duke
of Wellington) had wisely omitted to annex conditions to the
Catholic Emancipation Act.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—Does the Noble Lord for-
get the abolition of the franchise of the forty-shilling free-
holders ?
The Earl of HADDINGTON—The Noble Lord was right.
He did think that the introduction of any proprosition for
the payment of Roman Catholic clergy would be most impo-
litic at the present time, inasmuch as it would not be acccepted
by that body. Many propositions had been made with respect
to the Established Church in Ireland, by Noble Lords oppo-
site, but he (the Earl of Haddington) thought the question
was, whether they would recognise the Church on the volun-
tary principle in that country, or whether the whole Church
Establishment should be abolished. He thought the proposi-
tion of the Noble Marquis was a perfect chimera, as the
Noble Lord the President of the Council had shown to the
satisfaction of their Lordships. According to the Act of
Union, the Church as by law established was part and parcel of
the law of the land. His Noble Friend had announced that
it was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to sanc-
tion in the slightest degree any measure which could degrade or
destroy the Protestant Church in Ireland ; but, at the same
time, he (the Earl of Haddington) thought such a determina-
tion was quite consistent with the adoption of a course of legis-
lation
rights to the Roman
r
which
own
wouldpurposes,
excited
Catholics. If the agitators of Ireland,
f"n mtheaesupraessoifonesiviol
fanthderepelignipolues,
under pretence of obtaining their rights, it was for them to
prove that there was ample room to conciliate that
people by the adoption of liberal measures.—( Heart )
fhe defects in the registration system could not be imputed to
the Government, since they had
announced their intention of
bringing in a Bill to remedy the evils which had arisen from
an interpretation of the Act which had the effect of diminish-
ing the number of Irish voters. He denied the imputation
that justice was not fairly administered. He defended the ju-
dicial appointments of the Government. Were men to be ;ex-
eluded from the bench, because, at some time in their lives,
they had made speeches distasteful to the Catholic Hier-
archy ? That charge came with a very had grace from
the Noble Marquis, who, unless he was belied, offered
the situation of Master of the Rolls to Mr. O'Con-
nell.—(" Hear, hear," from the Marquis of Normanby.)
As to the monster meetings, it was said that the most manly
course would have been to have prevented them at first. He
said that the Government thought they would wear themselves
out ; the Government was not so foolish as to imagine any
such thing. The Government did not prevent the first meet-
ings ; but they took a course by which the people—who saw
what passed in Parliament through the papers—were warned
of the consequences of attending such meetings. As to the
dismissal of the magistrates for attending repeal meetings, the
Government was perfectly justified in doing it. No man who
attended such a meeting could be depended on for putting down
excesses that might arise from excitement on other occasions.
With regard to the Clontarf meeting, he contended that the
proclamation against it was issued quite in sufficient time.
That meeting was called together by a sort of military procla-
mation, which rendered it absolutely necessary for the Govern-
ment to interfere. He admitted that Mr. O'Connell did use
every effort to preserve the peace, and not the slightest disorder
occurred. But the alarming part of the subject was this—
that one man should have such influence as that when
he said peace there was peace ; what might Thehe_oble
sequence if it suited him to say war? N
Marquis opposite (the Marquis of Clanriearde) complained '
of the manner io which the persons in Ireland had
been brought to justice. He complained of their being
been
arraigned for conspiracy, and said they ought to have
tried for sedition. The Noble Lord also said that great risk
of blood was incurred by the Government in the mannern
which they had proclaimed the Clontarf meeting. Their..
i
Lordships wt,uld recollect that Clontarf was near to Dublin,
where a large military force was stationed. But suppose they
had proclaimed Alullaghrnast, Tara, or Clifdeu meetings.
There would then have been risk of bloodshed indeed, inas-
much as the military force stationed at those places was ex-
tremely small, as compared with the vast numbers attending
the meeting. Suppose those meetings had been proclaimed,
and the people attending those meetings had refused to obey
the proclamation, what would have been said then by Noble
Lords opposite ? Would it not have been said that Peterloo
had been revived, and that the meetings had been put down
which were being held for a perfectly legal purpose ? The
Government had not prosecuted the traversers in Ireland be-
cause the object they had in view was unlawful, but because
their means for attaining that object were illegal. The means
they adopted were intimidation—intimidation of Parliament
and the Government. He (Lord Haddington) therefore
trusted that the Government stood vindicated before their
Lordships, as he was sure they stood vindicated before the
people of England, for what they had done. They had done
all they could to maintain the peace and tranquillity
of Ireland. They had succeeded—succeeded, too, by means
of the ordinary and unaided law of the land. —(Choers. )
It had been said in another place that his Noble Friend on the
Woolsack had been appointed to his office on account of his
hostility to Ireland. He (Lord Haddington)
must say, that
he had- never read any accusation with more indignation in
the whole course of his life.—(lltar, hear.) The attack
upon his Noble and Learned Friend was a most foul calumny.
—(Hear, hear.) No one who knew his Noble and Learned
Friend could ever accuse him of being the enemy of, cr hostile
to, any human creature. He
had never known a man less
liable to such a gross imputation, or who had more generosity
in his nature. Ho (Lord Haddington) begged pardon for
thus speaking in the presence of his Noble and Learned
Friend, but he had a right to feel that this was not only an
imputation upon the motives of Sir Robert Peel, but upon the
whole Government.—( Cheers.) He thought that the person
who said that her Majesty's Ministers had appointed her Lord
High Chancellor to his situation on account of his hostility to
the people of Ireland, was not, by such a course, doing that
which was likely to allay the excitement at present existing.
—( Hear, hear.) They were not accustomed to hear imputa-
tations of this kind, and he was sure they must all have heard
of it with deep regret. lie was quite certain that it ought to
be regretted by him who made it, for language of this kind
was little likely to heal the wounds of Ireland. In conclusion,
he begged to say that nothing would be left undone by her Ma-
jesty's Government to tranquillise and conciliate the people of
Ireland
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. When he
said the parties who had lately been tried in Ireland ought to
have been tried for sedition, he did not say that seditious lan-
guage had been used, but that it was stated that seditious lan-
guage had been usedat the meetings held in Ireland last year.
The parties using such language, if they Fad used such lan-
guage, ought to have been prosecuted at the time.
Earl FORTESCUE explained.
Lord MONTEAGLE then rose to address the House. The
question of stipendiary magistrates formed but a small Tart of