The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-02 00:00:00

propose in the 13th cleuse. The louse would re',
' that on a former occa ion he had stated that there was at'
obvious legal imperfection in the' clause as sent Iron
the House of Lords. The clause as it a?!
stood fell short of the announced intention
of her Majesty's Government, for her 344;
jesty's Goverianait had d, clued that it was their No%
to give every facility to the voluntary endowment, 13°:
only of the dignitaries of the Church of Rome, but tht
parochial priests—not only those now in possession, bud
all others succeeding. The clause as it was now fro's.
gave effect to the former part of that intention with.la
feyence to the now officiating clergymen, but it fade
with respect to those succeeding, and it would, there
fore, be necessary to introduce words to remedy tb:d
defect. The clause as it at present stood concludo
with the following words, " in trust for any person 1
Holy Orders in the Church of Rome, and for building
a residence for his use, so long as he shall have the vn'
toral superintendence of any district or congregsti°
professing the Roman Catholic faith, or in trust for 10.'1
person in Holy Orders or a higher rank than parocln
priest." It was proposed to strike out those buyc
and in their stead to introduce the following:—" Or
Archbishop or Bishop, or other person in Holy Order:
in the Church of Rome officiating in any district, °,
having the pastoral superintendence of any congregs
tion professing the Romer' Catholic religion."
Mr. HARCOURT VERNON expressed his 504'
tion with the alterations which had been made in the .131„
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to hear the f-a,
planation of the Right lion. Gentleman. On reatin
this Bill it appeared to him to be a very uselreti
one, and he was sorry to see that there wFA,
some words introduced into the measure wh,%e
rendered the Bill somewhat imperfect, at e'ne
same time it did not seem to him that the words 0",
been introduced with any offensive object, and, there_
fore, he was glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentlert
intended to propose the alterations which he had su
mitted to the House. Ile could not understand Why
they should not plainly mention the titles " Archbishop
and Bishop of the Church of Rome." They could not
be ignorant that there were Bishops and Archbishops
the Church of Rome, and -he could not conceive Wilt,
objection there was to naming them. He was haS.Pti,
that it was now proposed to introduce these words. Air I,i,
respect to another point, the specifying the Roman Catheeo
Bishops and Archbishops as presiding over certl'is
dioceses, lie should not wish to raise that controversy
present ; on another question, it might be necesary to
acknowledge in the Roman Catholic prelates the antY,„,
rules presiding in certain dioceses ; but it would be
politic to raise the question on this measure, anue",
would not be wise to have inserted such words in
Bill. The measure was limited to certain objects ; t"-
facilitating the possession of endowments by Rola
Catholic clergymen of Ireland ; and it being conceo4
in the spirit of justice, he thought it was one
which the House would generally agree.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL expressed his satisfactil
at what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet. gde
valued the spirit in which the alterations had been ma
more than the alterations themselves. He did not Of
to offer any sort of factious opposition to the Bill ;
on a measure affecting the religion they professed,.
and his Hon. Friends had thought it necessary falr
and openly to express their opinion upon it.
The O'CONOR DON also expressed the satisfse:
tion he felt at the modification introduced by the 611°0
vernment. Havingbeen one of those who voted against hat
measure on its second reading, he felt bound to state
he had received communications from those whose.°2ra
pions he was bound to respect, but still he apPree°:-to
highly the improvements that had been introduced ',lll,
the measure. Yet he must confess he thought that Lao
ficulties might arise from the interference of 10191,
with matters connected with the discipline of the Chu r
`t.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought it of the utmost icaP°J3i,
ance that one of the five Commissioners should be a .
shop or Archbishop of the Roman Catholic Plot
Church, but as-he understood it, that concession had $.4,
been made ; he trusted, however, that, upon consie.,7o,
tion, the Government would accede to the proposti
He was glad to hear that the making the Catholic elLell,
of Ireland stipendaries of the Government bad
„Iv'',
abandoned. He thought the proposition of his
AP.:,°b.
Friend opposite, that after the words "Bishop and
bishops" should be added " the other dignitaries of t
Church," was a good one, and might be well adopted' es
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be more in consonant
with the spirit in which the Government had introdn'o,
the measure to leave the discretion of the Crown
fettered. He trusted the House would adopt the alle';
tions proposed by his Right Hon. Friend, as they 10
eluded the names of the archbishops, and bishops, 9,0
clergy, of the Church of Rome. He felt no doubt t1:0,
if the discretion of the Crown was left unfettered, 'hi
appointments under the Bill would be made in too
same spirit that had dictated the introduction of

measure.
Mr. BELLEW said the alterations proposed by
Right Hon. Baronet had taken away the objections
had urged the other night to the measure. He that,'
the Bill would now work well, and he thanked her X
jesty's Government for it. de
Mr. F. SHAW said that no objection had been re f
to this Bill on the part of the Protestant populati°;°o.o
Ireland, and he certainly thought that objections rano
have been more jnstly expected from them than frip°g•
those from whom the had emanated the other even •
With respect to the proposed alterations, he was e°t
4tit
dined to quarrel about words, although he believe;
was rather a new thing to find Catholic Archbishops scB
Bishops named in an Act of Parliament, at leastlfik-
-1829. Ile believed that the old Board of Chaeitabt,;ria,
quests had, on the whole, discharged its duty l's" to
and that it had given satisfaction even
the Reinert Catholic population of Ireland. V1'41,1
respi et to an observation made by the ''1"o
Lord of the Treasury, he wished to observe, and ielsi
same spirit, that, in his opinion, it would be better tuo
the Government should be left altogether unfettered, to
to the appointments. On that ground he objecte%,
the second clause, rendering it incumbent on the 'eof
verntrient to hale live persons of one religon and fivhica
another. It was calculated to keep up distinctions W“
had better be forgotten, and it might be found prof
caliy ieconvenielit. Suppose the respectable classor
Roman Catholics were to agree not to accept the did
peintments ? The measure could not work at all. Veep.,
not object to the fact of ev.in six or seven Roman 06'0,
lies being on the board, if they were appointed dlog
spective of their religion, but he objected to fire bethe
appointed by Act of Parliament ; and he thouohteie
Bill would work better if the appointments wereble ;to
the hands of the Government. Ile also approved ()bre,
suggestion of an Hon. Friend of his, that questions rod
lating to the discipline of the. Church should be ret.c.4
ed
to a Committee composed of members of the Establisb
Church in Ireland.
11
Mr. SHEIL thought that the sentiments which -. 0
-rir
0
been expreesed by the Right Honourable Gentie't
did him great credit ; and he would not be 051,0
mental in breaking into the harmonious spirit W the
pervaded the debate.-- (Hear, hear.) He thoughiflg
Government had acted more than wisely in onest
these alterations, and that they deserved the greittlitair
credit for their conduct. It was said it was a were orj,
of words, but a principle was often involved in /chef
and by the use of one single expression in this Bill' tot
had acknowledged a principle which might here:Rat
lead to the most valuable results. They had a pree sti•
for the use of the term " Catholic Bishop " in the ea to
mates, in which a sum of 1,0001. was annually l'°,te the
the Catholic Bishop of Quebec, and a smaller stun '5 0
Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland. Be wisbebicb
majority of Roman Catholics on a Commission v''oo
would have to deal with the property of 13° del
Catholics ; and he wished a majority of ecelesiasjoe
when the matter to be decided wile of a spiritual or oci
trinal nature. The Right Hon. Gentleman then retv
letter from an Irish Roman Catholic Archbishop, ribi§
stood high in the opinion of men of all parties 10 61a
country, and in that letter be said, " I consider tbeo,
clause most objectionable, because it gives laymen silo
trol over religious matters ; and if the Bill passed,' •
taming that clause, it would be considered an infrigreta
ment on the Catholic Church." As far as tenepo
matters were concerned, he (Mr. Sheil) would hs/„,,,ee01
objection—nay, he would prefer a majority of laYr„ioo
but in ecclesiastical matters he was entirely of theoPed,
110-
of the Right Rev. Prelate whose opinion he had 00
Mr. D. BROWNE took nearly the same view tie se
Right Hon. Gentleman. He thought the Bill,nselid
unjust interference with the doctrines of the Ida' the
faith, at the same time that he gave full credit t°
spirit in which the Government had introduced ite the
Mr. WYSE approved of the general provisions„°,
on
Bill, but thought the number of Roman Cathlorecl
the Committee ought to be increased. He ce°sl;oo,
the best course would be to choose three judges 'le
ferently from the bench, who would form the per'
clement in the board. It was only right and P,e;lesl"
that there should be a considerable number of the
astics on the board, and he would suggest, tu'Arell"
Catholic visitors of the College of Maynooth—the
tbo
bishop of Armagh, the Archbishop of Dublin, d° of
Earl of Fingal, should be members of the -13 c Iscsr the
Charitable Bequests. This would amply
people of Ireland.
The House then went into Committee on the e•
Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2 being proposed, dal"t
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he had an ate,e° 66 add
on the paper to omit from the clause the worost for,
the judge of her Majesty's court of preregslllooli,
causes ecclesiastical and court of faculties in Irerooel"
but owing to the fair manner in which the Geverul
had come forward with respect to this Bill he /v°--,1.
press it.
roggielle
Mr. WYSE objected to the judge of the fCba
court being appointed a member of the Bear'
ritable Bequests in Dublin.
Clause 2
Clauses 3,was agreed to.
without diP
4, and 5, were also adopted, a
cussion. On clause 6 being proposed,word
Mr. S. O'OBRIEN moved, in line 36, after the 011
" Ireland," the insertion of these words:—" b°
be in question before the said Commissioners.ssioerit
referred to a Committee of the said Cogan° to the
consisting of those Commissioners who belonagoctrio'
said Church, and that all matters concerning we,
discipline." opoeitiho
Sir J. GRAHAM could not accede to the Ir. et to t 0
as he thought it far better to leave the sil,"),:vnelsl/0
discretion of the Crown than to tie the
down to any particular line of action.
Mr. SHAW thought the proposition4,/jrvise his
"'
Friend a most reasonable one, but he
Hon. Friend not to press it to a division. joie(' 141:
this
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said what he sure
113 e
that security should be taken to make - Gent 0
perfect as possible. He hoped the gen'
erawe'
would not divide the House.
After a short discussion the amendment vva..so`f the
us,
Mr. SHEIL proposed that three
o_nnerscasigeltio°
Roman Catholic members of the Colordoisusl
be Archbishops or Bishops of the BetTecosarl
Church, lie was sure that this would be "
make the Bill efficacious in Ireland.
nantloon
Sir B. PEEL hoped the Bight Hon.