The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 5, 1844,

after the speech of' the Hon. Gentleman--(Hear hear)— 1
arid, in the first place, he • was most ' anxious
to assure the House, on the part of her Majesty's
Government, that there was the most earnest desire
on n their part that this discussion should not be post
Ponca, and that there should be a House this evening ;
and if there was any Member more anxious than anotherow
On the sehiect, he was that individual ; *and he was now
most glad that he had the opportunity of addressing
them.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that
this was a question of confidence, and that it was their
wish to conceal some portion of the truth, and to mistifye-
the matter. Now, he thought he might appeal to th
•
}douse whether it was not, in a great measure, owing to
his strict adherence to truth that this question was now
before the House ?—( Hear.) He might have given an eya-
vive answer, which would have prevented cis question
from being brought under the notice of the House ; but
he s-orned teeth a subterfuge.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
he was in honour bound not to give an evasive answer ;
and whatever the consequences might be to him-
uelf, he thought he was in duty and in honour
bound to state the facts as they were. On a former oc-
casion he had said that a legal remedy party injured. lie did not think that was an improper
thou was open to the
though it might be an unnecessary answer. He thoughtt it a justifiable answer, and he could not conceive iliegal injury inflicted by a public servant where the law
any great
did not Pr vide a remedy. But it was not his intention
t rept at that answer now; it was considered unnecessary.
On the former occasion the Hon. Gentleman said this
was a question between the people of England and the
Government. Whatever it might have been he admitted
it assumed that aspect uow.—(Hear, hear.) He stated
on a fortner occasion he did not undervalue the
importance of the discussion from the moment it
was brought under the ,notice of the House.---:(I-Iear.)
interests, an
He said it was a grave question, involving great national
that now
a exciting national feelings. He repeated
'Primar , and he said he regarded this as a question of
that he Y importance. and it was his intention to prove
so esteemedit.—(Hear, hear.) He regarded this
ae,ola question bet ween the people and the executived
es
ateNrunient.---
(Rear hear.) The Hon. Gentleman s.a
th within the two la'st -ears—for he specified the time
there had h
coder power -whit;
been a most) unscrupulous use of' this parti-
inore grave charge
Government by any
h was exercised contrary to law. A
could not be preferred against any
Member of the House.
Mr. p. DUINCOMRE said he made use of the words
"on a former occasion."
Sir J. GRAIIAM said he hoped, considering the
gravity of the question, the House would permit him
to proceed without interruption.—(Hear, hear.) He
was sure the Hon. Gentleman did not intend it. He
was about to state that the importance of this question
was greatly magnified by the assertions made, not only
on the former occasion by the Hon. Gentleman, but re-
iterated through the press, and it had grown in messni-
tude from the assertions made that evening by the Hon.
Gentteman. The Hoh. Gentleman said it was notorious
ious
that as the mails arrived there was a cry firstf:.
let-
the
bublin bat—then for the Brighton bee—then f
ters directed to particular street, and he stated that he
believed everybody's letters were opened.
Mr. T. DIJNCOMBE said lie did not say that. -
Sir J. GRAHAM said he begged the House would
Slot allow him to be interrupted. If he made any mis-
mstatement, he was open to correction after he sat down.
at he anpealed to the justice of the House whether he
~,,as not entitled to a fair hearing. Hear, hear.) The
'°o• Gentleman said that he was now called on to say
veer° than he had on a former occasion, and that he said
Lo Much that it was necessary that he should say more.
He (Sir J. Graham) was disposed to agree with him
in
that, lie thought the time was arrived when he must
Say 131°ve•—Cheers from both sides of the House.)
hen he considered the state of the public Mind, so sen-
sitive on this point--(Hear,. hear)—the efforts which had
been made to inflame the public mind—the assiduous,
successful, designed attempts—Meer,- hear)—which
were made for this purpose, he agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman the time was come when he must say more—
yvhen he was desirous to say more—(Cheers)—and when
he was desiroue, to use the words of the Honourable
Gentleman, " that the truth, the whole truth, and no-
thing bet the truth, should be made known."—(Renewed
Cheers-) When he last addressed the House, he ad-
dressed it under circumstances different from those
•!vhieh now presented themselves for consideration, fur
of holding, Ills immediate predecessor in the office he had the honour
latmer, and in his
had stated in the most solemn and authentic
33
place in Parliament, that he had no
sta,ole to believe that the power given to the Secretary
,_,lntate: with regard to the delaying and opening letters,
and which power was necessary for the safety of the
had should be exercised by a responsible Minister,
the bee.n exercised by him in a manner different from
l'rede.Ze7 il
which it had been exercised by his
addresseT4l•• n was in those circumstances he last
swore servwde House on this subject. But, since then,
versed
habits of
in atilits of her Majesty, Privy-Councillors, men
.._.
.tof
do, cognisant a affairs of State, conversant with the
e, well knaveing what it was their duty to
what their predecessors had done, the
Right Hon.
eman the Member for Edinburgh,
ahny
...powers of deela
tojedsneot think Gunbecoming his station and abilities, and
and apparentl !nation which were unsurpassed by
_ Member of that 11011 SP to come down to the House. •
Ye-prepared for the occasion—(Hear, hear)
•.—and address to it an impassioned speech, raising the
indignation of the House and the public, not against the
law, not against the system, but against the individual.
The Right goo. 3
stated it was not of the ex-
istence of the law that he complained, but of the de-
Parture from established usage, and of the mode in which
1110 power had been exercised by her Majesty's present
(HGovernment ?—(Hear„ hear.) Did he stand alone ?
ear, hear.) Were there no other sworn Members of
her Majesty 's Privy Council ?--(Hear.) What was
the tone- of the Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland ?
Theymight not be conversant with the peculiar details
f 1- ' but the Noble Lord, the Member for
o the
Home-office;
predecessor in
London, who, though not his immediate
r_
been
in the Honie Department, had for
did
not thin t i
'oconsistent with his duty to vote for inquiry—
.llear, hear)—not because he objected to the
'ega-1 power, but because he was not of
opinion that it was exercised by him (Sir J. Graham) in '
the accustomed manner mei according to constitutional
14sage•—(Ilear, n
hear.) What had been the effect of this
on the public mind ? It had been to induce a convic-
tio that he laboured under a stigma peculiar to himself,
l'f introducing a new practice and of departing, in some
lenpertant particulars, from the precedent set in former
times, and pursued by his predecessors from an early
Period of the history of England. Now, he would tell
;•1110 House frankly that no load of obloquy (though
e w°llld net sat- it was unworthy to seek
amount o
to crush him under a load of obloquy), no
f injustice cast upon him, would induce him to
t°eonsent to in if he thought it was not for the public
°'l ; but he was satisfied, after what had taken place
give thin these ten days—after the votes which had been
-;len on the former occasion by the Noble Lord the
.ttleei. the Sunderland, the Noble Lord the Member
:,:iiiii,`: Id°o, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
bevc urAh, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
tore:un, all of whom were Cabinet Ministers, and
3_e less acquainted with the practice of the execo-
''et! Govern
the votes they gave for inquiry
.110 the ground of a departure from' established usage—
this Say that from that moment the maintenance of
That poesse•e,,,_svithout inquiry, was impossible. He was glad •
fice
of hiiuldconsent to this inquiry without any sacri-
move o the Crown or to the public, and that
iieeoald r from himself this unjust load of obloquy
without Miy riSk to the legal power, now not only in
20 _ ger, lilt destroyed. He repeated, that he could now
I,(tul.ge 11S own feelings consistently with the public
aire mg inquiry—
it7sit :md
ihin would be a party—a willing party—.to the
of the law, (Loud cheers)—into the state
earliest aw• and the practice under the law, from the
.-e
West period to the latest times.—(Cheers.) So far as
Ivt, as concerned, nothing should be concealed, and he
ns iirepared to go before
a Committee of the House,
*The nature f • •
?state ' o which he Would state, and to
fully everything h had and
eheers) and he ho e done.—(Hear
.ws, „
call ---
ped that the Committee
e-T_ °,0,!,,-10 not only his colleagues but his predecessors
ikchcued cheers)—and that there should, be a full and
esist_te. )!!.tnitiation and revelation of what had taken
e" 7' lie would propose terms as general
as would
in tire a full inquir
-confined Y• The power given by law was not
Lord to the Se 4-
. b - ' to the
Lie
ute of ary of State, ut was given . •
would be exnant of Ireland, arid he hoped the inquiry
of that inquirytruled to him.-(Hear, hear.) The result
Ilia.
.. would be, as far as he was concerned,
t the power e •
•
formiti,
w. , xermsed by him had been strict con-
-not '' only the usage of his office—that the usage was
ParticularY recognised by statute, but that in
the • eases it had been brought under
nonce of the H •
pointed by • ouse by reports of Committees ap -
Ph
- the llonse. Neither •
in the mode in which
Power had been •
whieh it h exercised, nor to the extent to
comparison •
had been used, would his conduct suffer by
he u.a with that of his immediate predecessors, and
fie now
rejoiced to think there would be no mysti-
as sarnse.—(Loud cheers-) I-le hoped the result would be
,v, 0
se.atactory to the Hon. Gentleman himself, and those
as
_wetintd hirn.—(Hear, hear, and Tory cheers.)
lir i . ago o move an
i 3 the Hon. •
amendment to the motion
-former Gentleman. lie stated on a
_,O . oceasiou that he did think a revela-
el n in that House of theexercise of this
power would not be conducive to the
good. He re-
! twiner that opinion, e pu c and he th
inquiry, not before S I ought there should be an
mittee. pie thought a Se lee but before a Secret Com-
dent, and e thought it was expedient to follow prece-
o ' • that a Secret Committee should be appointed
i inquire into the
Jest i extent he had stated. It was of the
in' that the • Committee
lamp be amPle and h powers given to the Committee
large as the t
House e was prepared to grant them as
Altich would depend o nil
t require.—(hear, hear.)
tnittee. Nowhe w
n-
a
s
e composition of this Corn •
thatit no delay should take mostat.e particnlarly anxious
• Considering the ins-
, e ance of the subject, and the state of the
lie thought this • •
as,_ . e,_
did not ought to take place without
-!,'''l3. Ile did not know `ought
She strict rules of
siouse permitted, but it Nether e
e_ .___
on , was his intention to move as an
, molln t to the motion or the II
....omen
on. Gentleman that a
ttee of Seer • b '
state of the l • en/ e appointed to inquire into the
of letters at '
:esv in respect to the detaining and opening
which the
auttitileorGeneral Poet•office, and into the mode in
had been exerci-ity given for such detaining and opening
opinions and oi3s, and that the Committee report their
would depend 'erva.tions to the House. A great deal
rie
could upon the composition of the Committee.
ifo conceive no higher trust delegated by the
use to any gentle '
shoe
.rhey were anxious that it
Id be impartial :nen.
Proposed that there.and' as a proof of that wish, he
lt wee his intenti should be a Committee of nine, and
should be e t on propose that five out of the nine
~.__en . g
_n Jensen who opposed her Majesty's GentlemenGo-
b"Oo t (Hear, hear.) He proposed that four should
~,"_
er who generally voteel with her Majesty's
Miff abuse
and that those four should be Lord Sandon,
NT,istiouse Drummond, Mr. Thomas Baring, and Sir
kl:.'larn Heatheote. The five others who opposed her
-4Q3tY's Ciovenunent, he proposed should be

Sir Charles Lemon, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Strait, The
O'Conor Don, and Memberr. Ord, the for Newcastle.
He should say, that he had carefully excluded from his
list every gentleman connected with offiee—(Hear,
hear)—and he had also excluded the Hon. Gentleman
who brought forward the motion, not from any want of
rcepeet, but because he thought it better that the accuser
and the accused . should have nothing to do with the
Committee. Toth se he surrendered his case, and his
personal honour without fear.—(Hear, hear.) They could
report what the former usages had been, what was
the state of the law, as it existed from the earliest
time, sanctioned by men long since gone to their great
account—men of spotless private honour, who dearly
loved the liberties of England, for the use of which an
attempt was made to crash him. He entrusted the
matter to the Committee, confident that they would
discharge their duty, and though there were some evils
in the late discussion, and the agitation of the public
mind on the subject, yet he hoped, he helieved, and he
prayed that good might ensue, and with this feeling,
thanking the House for the patience with which they
had heard him, he would place this amendment in the
Speaker's hands.—(Loud cheers.)
The amendment having been put,
pare SIIEIL said it seemed to him a most extraordi-
nary circumstance, that a Committee to inquire into the
state of the law and the manner into which it had been
carried into effect, should not cent a single lawyer.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman expressed a
wish that the investigation should be of the moat search-
ing character.—(hear, hear.) Ile presumed, therefore,
that he had no objection to have the different function-
arks of the Post-office examined respecting its various
details.—(" Hear, hear," from Ministers.) Then it fol-
lowed that they must have some persons on the Commit-
tee who were accustomed to putting questions.—
(Lau,;hter.) IF they wished to have a thorough, investi-
gation, they Inuit hare, if the Committee would allow
him to use such a phraee, a forensic inquisitor.—(No, no.)
Observe, they wished to have the course pursued
by their predecessors, as well as their own,
investigated.--(Hear, hear.) It was a cause, and
plus cause.—(Hear, hear.) The predecessors of the
Government were` as much interested in t':e issue at
stake as they themselves were. They said that they
were not more criminal than those who had gone before
them. Was it not desirable, then, that the Committee
should contain two individuals, one on one side and the
other on the other side, both of whom were accustomed
to the examination of witnesses ?—(No, no.) He cer-
tainly could not help thinking that when they were re-
ferring to the consideration of a Committee the con-
struction of the law, and the manner in which this law
had been acted upon. that Committee should consist of
persons who would be able thoroughly to investigate the
whole subject.—(Hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said, as the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had alluded to the vote which
he (Sir George Grey) had given on a former
occasion, he wished to disclaim altogether, if such dis-
claimer were necessary, the attempt which Would be
made to throw upon him all the responsibility connected
with this power. It was hardly necessary that he should
refer to the arguments which he had used in support of
the motion of his Hon. Friend. He had, however,
stated distinctly that the single ground on which he sup-
ported that motion was, that the Government had been
utterly silent, not only as to the details of a particular
case, but as to the broad principle upon which they ex-
ercised the power which was admitted, on all hands, to
be vested in them by law.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that
the real charge which would be brought against the
Government was, that a power given for one purpose
had been exercised for another—(Hear, hear)—that the
power which had been given fur the purpose of
securing the throne of this country from con-
spiracy—he did not say whether the charge
was well founded or not, but in the absence of all asser-
tion to the contrary, he was bound to assume its cor-
rectness—had been exercised by the Right lion. Gentle-
man, not for that constitutional object, but for purposes
entirely unconnected with these dominions, and exclu-
sively connected with a foreign country. That, he
repeated, was the single ground upon which he supported
the motion ; and he begged to remind the lion. Gentle-
man that he stated, that if lie disavowed such an exer-
cise of power, he, for one, should be satisfied.—(Hear,
hear.) Having said so much as to what passed on a
former occasion, he begged to say that he entirely ap-
proved of the course now taken by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the terms of the
motion were rot very material. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had distinctly stated that he wished fur a full and
comprehensive inquiry.—(" Hear," from Sir J. Graham.)
As they had the substance, therefore, he did not think
the precise form was material. As to the constitution
of the Committee, he thought it was desirable to avoid
expressing any final opinion upon that subject on that
occasion.—(Hear, hear.) He presumed that, in con-
formity with the ordinary practice, the names
would be laid on the table to-morrow. The Right
Honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham) shook his
head, but as the House met at twelve o'clock,
to-morrow, if his suggesti in were complied with, it
would only cause a delay of about 12 hours; and was it
desirable to violate the ordinary rule of the House for
the purpose of gaining twelve hours? Ile saw no ob• ,
jection to. the names proposed, except that of his Right
Hon. Friend in reference to the absence of gentle-
men connected with the law. He begged to correct
himself. He understood that there was one gentleman
who possessed that advantage. If that were the case,
he thought there should he one from each side of the
House. He could ns:t help expressing his satisfaction
at the change of tone on the part of the Right lion.
Gentleman opposite, after the avowed ignorance of his
colleagues. He was sure that not one of his predeces-
sors would shrink from the most full and complete in-
quiry as to the manner in which they had exercised the
power which was vested in them. After the observa-
non which had been made in that House, and by men
of the highest authority on the subject, it was of the ut-
most importance that the law should be placed on
grounds which would render it clear and unambiguous.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he understood that the object
of appointing the Committee was to create a feeling of
security in the public mind, that feeling of security
which had been so much shaken by what had taken
place within the last few days. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wished to have a thorough scrutiny into all the
circumstances connected with the administration of' the
Post-office, for the purpose of creating a feeling of se-
curity out of doors. They were about to institute a
Committee—first of all to inquire into the actual state
of the law on that subject, he thought it would be
found that there were great doubts in the minds of the
most learned lawyers. The next question was, how
that law had been administered—whether it had been
departed from or acted upon, by whom departed from
and by whom acted upon. He would ask the House,
if they thought the most likely !neaps of creating se-
curity out of doors was to make this Committee secret ?
—(Hear.) He had no objection to the inquiry being
carried on with closed doors, but what he wished to
insure was the full and complete publication of the
cvi-
dence.—(Hear, hear.) He had stated that the state of
the law was doubtful. After what had passed else-
where, could they for a moment hesitate to admit that
such was the case? They found Learned Law Lords on
one side opposed by equally learned authorities on the
other, and taking directly opposite views of the sub-
ject. If, therefore, they instituted an inquiry into the
actual state of the law, the Committee should be com-
posed of very sagacious persons, and persons accus-
tomed to common law. Whilst referring to the state of
the law, he begged to state one or two facts bearing on
this subject. By an Act of Parliament of the 9th of
Queen Anne, certain powers were given to the Post-
office, 'and ,a proviso was introduced into that Act
by which persons opening letters under the warrant
of the Secretary of State should be free from the penal-
ties imposed: The 9th of Anne had been repealed, and
an Act was passed in 1837, by which certain powers were
also given, and a proviso was inserted in that Act. Now,
he asserted, on the very highest authority that the proviso
in the Act of Parliament simply protected the persons
who opened the letters, it gave no authority to any
Secretary of State to issue any warrant, and if the
Secretary of State had any authority at all, it was a power
which he possessed in the common law.—(Hear, hear.)
He was only stating this for the purpose of showing the
sort of inquiry upon which this Committee was about to
enter. The Hon. and Learned Member then referred to
the Act of Parliament in support of the statement which
he had just made. lle begged now to direct the attention
of the House to the language of Lord Camden, in the case
the seizure of Mr. Wilkes' papers. " Papers," said
Lord Camden, " were the owner's goods and chattels,
they were his dearest property, and were so far from
enduring a seizure, that they would hardly bear an in-
spection ; and though the eye conld not, by the law of
England, be guilty of a trespass, yet the carrying
goods away which were of a secret nature, was an act
of trespass." There was no law which gave any man
the power to do that ; and it was too much for them,
without such authority, to pronounce a practice legal
which would be subversive of all the comforts of
society.' Now he (Mr. Roebuck) wanted to have per-
sons appointed from that House, who would be able
to report as to the actual state of the law, as well as the
manner in which it had been carried out. In an ordi-
nary case they had a judge, whose duty it was to tell
the jury what was the state of the law ; and he did
net think that the Committee now nominated
would be able to decide that question. He fully sym-
pathised with the Right Hon. Gentleman in what he bad
said as to the advantage which had been taken of this
incident to call down public indignation upon a public
officer who had done nothing more than follow in the
footsteps of his predecessors.—(Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial benches.) That feeling had been created out
of doors by all those vile arts which attached to the daily
prees.—(Hear, hear.) A viler instrument of calumny
could not be used, and all its vileness bad been used on
the present occasion, and.poured on the head of the Right
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) lle would not do honour to one more than
another of those detestable channels.—(Laughter.) Ile
was delighted at this inquiry. lie was convinced that
the moment this power was understood the people of this
country would consign it to destruction.—(Cheers.)
It was not necessary for the safety and peace of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was only used to
gratify a base passion.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
It was used for paltry, disingenuous, and detestable pur-
poses— (Hear, hear)—and it could not be of any use to
a Government which rested on the affections of the
people. Those affections could not be gained but by 'a
straightforward and honest course. They could not be
gained unless the people were suffered to perform all
those acts which society considered harmless and useful.
Ile held in his hand a paper which he desired to bring
before the House. The Hon. Member for Finsbury said
that M. Guizot had thought fit to say, that he was not
aware that any breach of the privacy of letters in France
now took place. He did not attach much credit to that
statement as a piece of information. The Hon. and
Learned Member then read a letter from M. Carnot, the
Minister of tke Interior, to M. -le Prefet du Department
des Postes, stating that he had been informed that,'
in certain parts of the empire the privacy of letters

had been violated, and deprecating such proceedings.
The letter concluded with these words—" The thoughts
of a citizen ought to be as free as his person."—(Hear,
hear, from the Opposition.) He hoped it would not be
said that, in England, at that period, they were not able
to realise the wishes of a Minister of France in 1815.
Under an established and regular Government he believed
they were not reduced to the fatal necessity of employ-
ing so degrading a means of securing the public safety.
Mr. L A.BOUCHERE said he was anxious to take
that opportunity of making some explanation to . the
House on a point which involved his own personal cha-
racter. It had been asserted that, in consolidating the
Post-office Acts in 1837, the late Government gave a
fresh sanction to the power under discussion, and actu-
ally pushed that power beyond its previous extent. Now,
he begged to state distinctly, that if that were the effect
of the Consolidation Act, he alone was responsible for
it. It was suggested to him, as a member of the Post-.
office Commission, that great inconvenience arose from
the Post-office Act being spread over 130 separate en-
actments. That suggestion was made by the Hun.
Member for Greenock ; and he complied with it, on the con-
dition that the Act should simply be a Consolidation Act,
and that the merits of the question should not be discussed.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock in particular
had kept most sacredly that bargain, he did not raise
any of the questions he had threatened to do; he had
allowed him (Mr. Labouchere) to proceed with the con-
solidation ; that was an act of consolidation, and that
only ; there was no fresh power given, nor was it in-
tended, the object was to leave the Act where it was.
The only alteration he had peoposad in the Act was to
take away the punishment of death in cases in Ireland,
where it had been taken away in England. He felt no
doubt by the consolidation that had taken place they
had nut made the law more stringent, but if it was to he,
and he alone, was responsible fur it. He had endea-
voured to discharge his duty to the best of his
and if he had failed he was to blame. With respect to
the question before the House he rejoiced at the course
taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head •of the
Home Department ; he was glad that the whole ques-
tion would be looked into, and he was sure his Noble
Friend the Member for the City of London would not
shrink from having his conduct inquired into when he
was in the Home-office. He (Mr. Labouchere) could not
think there was any real public object gaine:l by opening
letters, in the manner and for the purposes they had
hitherto been. He could not see any State necessity for
exercising the power in that sweeping way in which it
was exercised by Mr. Fox, in 1787, when he opened all
the letters to the ambassadors from foreign countries; but
this he could readily conceive, that there might be occa-
sions when it was necessary to adopt such a course—
such, for instance, as a conspiracy against the life of the
Queen. The Hon. Gentleman who had spoke last had
raised an objection to the Committee bens!, a secret one.
Now, he could not see any objection to that. He could
not see any difference between a Secret Committee and
one with closed doors, except that the Secret Committee
might exclude Members of that House, and for his own
part he could not see why Members should claim a pri-
vilege which they refused to the public. As to the
names of the Committee he hoped the Right Hon.
Baronet would adopt the usual course. He was glad at
the course the Government had pursued, and he thought
if they had at once stated their views and reasons fur
the course they had taken, instead of refusing to do so,
public anxiety would not have been so excited as it had
been, and the only way to allay that anxiety was to
have a strict and searching inquiry into the whole
matter.

Sir R. PEEL cordially and personally shared in the
satisfaction expressed by Hon. Members that there would
be an opportunity given of obtaining full information on
the subject of the invidious power of opening letters.
lie rejoiced in it, because these acts were not the acts
of an individual member of the Government, but of the
Government itself.—(Hear. hear.) It was not right that
those on whom the law placed the performance of a cer-
tain duty should bear the obloquy of it. The great
object for which the Committee was to be appointed was
to obtain full and complete information as to the usages
and circumstances under which the authority had been
exercised, and there would proceed from the Committee
an opinion as to whether or no, in the case of a particu-
lar Administration, the power had been perverted from
the course it was intended to pursue ; whether it had
been used for the promotion of party interests or private
curiosity, or for the indulgence of private malignity, or
for the great purpose for which it had been given, viz.,
the maintenance of the public interest. That was the
great object the Government had in view in proposing this
Committee. They had left out lawyers purposely in
order that there might not be any squabbling as to
what the law was. Suppose they had proposed to ap-
point the llon. Member for Worcester, and the Hon.
Member for Exeter, on the Committee, and they had
disagreed, in what situation would they be placed? The
law was not the question the people wanted to be
satisfied upon what they wanted to know was, why
the Government had pursued the course it had done,
and whether they had pursued it properly. He thought
the gentlemen they had named to form the Committee
had intelligence enough to come to a right conclusion
without the aid of the Hon. Members for Worcester and
Exeter. He hoped, therefore, the House would not call
upon the Government to appoint lawyers on the Com-
mittee. As to Mr. Home Drummond, it had never
occurred to him that he was so acute a lawyer; they
had named him out of respect for his character; and
if it was supposed that any advantage would accrue to
the Government from his appointment, they would forego
it, and appoint another . lion. Member in his room.
Objections had been. made to the Pommittee being a
secret one; it was made So in order that persons who
had held high stations might mere fully detail what bad
been done. The Cominittee, -having heard the statements
of facts would have tie Tull opportunity. of stating whether
the statements were sittisfactory 'oe-not, without disclos-
ing names ; if they wante4 Ap.g.et at the real state of the
facts as to the motivWO(thei Government, they would
only accomplish it by-having ttSeerett Committee, that
was the only way in evhich theycoula get at the whole
truth. He trusted that the House would think there was
such manifest justice in the appointment of the Com-
mittee that they would' at' once agree to it. Every one
of the five Members the Government had chosen had
given their votes against them on the last occasion the
question was brought forward. He hoped tho House
would allow the Government to substitute some other
name for Mr. Home Drummond, and would permit the
Committee to be appointed that night in order that they
might not be involved to-morrow in an invidious discus-
sion as to who should be members of the Committee.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed so entirely in the
course taken by the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, that he should not have considered it ne-
cessary to say a word to the House, had it not been for
some allusion the Right Bon. Baronet made in his
speech on laying grounds for the appointment of the
Committee. The Right Hon. Gentlemen had referred to
what he had stated on a previous night ; he had come
down to the House on that occasion thinking he should
vote with the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he found he
could not do so. There was one special allegation made
by the Hon. Member for Finsbury when he brought
forward his motion with respect to the letters of Mr.
Mazzini and Captain Stolzmann—he said that those
letters had been opened, not for the purpose
of finding out a public enemy, but for the pur-
pose of aiding a foreign country against some of their
discontented subjects, who had taken refuge in this
country. Now he (Lord J. Russell) did not consider that
a legitimate exercise of the power. He had given the
Right lion. Baronet credit for having properly exercised
the power he possessed, although he had refused to give
any explanation to this House of his reasons for doing so.
He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman's refusal to give
any explanation was, as far as the suspicions of the pub-
lic were concerned, most unfortunate. But he (Lord J.
Russell) could not lament the course he had taken on
that occasion. After the refusal to give any explana-
tion, the suspicions of the public could not fail to be
awakened ; the same inflammatory statements would
have been made, the same excitement would have existed
in the public mind ; and even then, according to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, he would not have granted any
inquiry. But as the members of the late Government had
taken the course they had done, the Right Hon. Gentleman
now thought it necessary to appoint a Committee on the
subject.— (Hear, hear.) He thought a very good con-
sequence had resulted.—(Hear, bear.) lie should sup-
port his Hon. Friend, the Member for Finsbury, think-
ing it quite fair that, as the Right Hon. Gentleman .s
conduct was attacked, the conduct of his predecessors
ought to be inquired into also by means of a Committee,
But he entirely agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman
in the reasons he had stated why this Committee should
be a secret one ; by that means, its purpose would be
much better answered, the inquiry would bo more strict,
and the Members would be more able to make up their
minds on subject, than if it was made an open Com-
mittee, and its evidence canvassed day by day. .For his
own part, he was ready to agree to any selection of
names for that Committee which the Right lion. Gentle-
man might propose, and he could see no objection to
those he had chosen. He thought it much better that
they should now close this part of the discussion, and
proceed at once ,to appoint the Committee. He -was
ready to give, himself, any evidence before that Com-
mittee that he was able to give, though there were many
others who could state better than he could, the manlier
in which the power had been exercised. At all events,
let the whole subject be investigated, and, if the power
was to be retained, let the terms of the law be made
clearer; and, on the contrary, if it should appear that the
power was not necessary for any public interest, let it be
discontinued. _ _

Mr. WAKLEY was quite sure that the public would
not be satisfied with the reasons either of the Right
Hon. Gentleman or of the Noble Lord (J. Russell) for
making it a Secret Committee, and he must say it ap-
peared to him a most extraordinary mode of satisfying
public curiosity on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Did the
Members of her Majesty's Government think they mono-
polised all the curiosity of the world ?—(Laughter.)
The Government had the ppwer of looking into people's
letters, but the people wanted to know to'what extent it
had been done, and why it had been done ? The public
had expressed much surprise and indignation at the
course that had been pursued ; but the Right Honourable
Secretary at first said boldly, " I won't tell you what has
been done. I feel it consistent with my public duty to
be silent. You shan't know any thing about it." But
the public were still very anxious, and the press, he
thought, in contradiction to his Hon. and Learned Friend
(Mr. Roebuck) had very laudably, and in a very excel-
lent spirit, excited the feeling that then existed through-
out England—(Cheers)—a feeling that had so far
brought the Right Hon. Gentleman to account that he
now consented to some inquiry, and it was to the press
they were indebted for that inquiry.—(Loud
cheers.) The public said give us investiga-
tion, and it was a deference to public opinion
which the Right Hon. Baronet stated as his reason for
granting the inquiry. He stated that public feeling had
been so excited on the subject, that he felt it his duty as
a Minister of State, to consent to the investigation.
Yes ; but how were the public to be satisfied, by being
Ma that all the secret was to be confined to the keeping

° or nine lion. Gentlemen, Members of that House, whose
opinions upon what had been done would be communi-
cated to the house ; but who could make no revealment
of the manner in which this odious practice had been
exercised or of the extent to which it had been exer-
eised.--(An lion. Member—" They can.") Yes, by a
general declaration but he would put it to the Speaker
whether it would be competent to the Committee, to
present that evidence to the House an .l have it printed.
The Right Hon. Baronet had alluded, with great clear-
ness to the part taken by the late Members of the Go-
vernment in the debate, and bad alluded to what they
had done when in office. Now, he inferred from what had
transpired that all the Right Hon. Gentlemen meant
to do was this:—to admit what he had done, not to

get out of it by saying that his conduct had not been
worse than theirs. He means to prove to the Committee
that if letters had been, opened to this extent, it had been
done in a greater degree by his predecessors. Now,
would that be very satisfactory to the public ? - It was
said that when persons of a certain description fell out
honest men got their own.—( A laugh.) Now, if it had not
been for the hostility manifested by the Members of the
late Ministry; they would have got no inquiry at
all. He was glad of the falling out of gentle-
men on both sides of the House, but he questioned
Much if the Government would get their own. He
believed that if great care were not taken, the practice,
so much condemned, would be carried on under the au-
thority of the Secret Committee ; for, from the manner
in which the inquiry would be conducted, it would be
admitted that the power ought to exist ; and if the power
was to rxist, who was to place a limit to it? lie had
heard no reasons why there should be an exception to
the general rule of Committees in that House. The Com-
mittee was to inquire into the state of the law. Now,

a hat bad transpired in another place with regard to the
taw ? In that place they had the first legal authorities
in the kingdom, persons to whose judgment, in legal
matters, the whole public were willing to submit. They
had the Lord Chancellor, the Chief Justice of England,
and some half-dozen ex-Chancellors. There they sat,
on both sides of the House, maintaining diametrically
opposite opinions. The Lord Chancellor main.
twined that one warrant was sufficient to open a
number of letters. The next Chancellor sup-
ported Min in that opinion. Another high legal
authority backed the Chief Justice in maintaining
that an express warrant was necessary in every case,
and notwithstanding these differences, and the turmoil
between these high authorities, his Hon. Friend pro-
posed to put lawyers on the Committee. If the Lord
Chancellor did not know the law, where would they find
lawyers in this House who did ? If the lawyers on the
Committee were to debate the law of the question for a
month, they would not understand it at last. He ad-
vised Hon. Gentlemen to apply the principles of common
sense and common justice to what they found with regard
to the practice of opening letters, and what was the
statute-law of the realm, then the public might be satis-
fied with their decision. If they did tilt, nothing would
satisfy the public that this odious and detestable power
ought to be continued. A more odious and unfair prac-
tice was never exercised, or one more calculated to give

offence and annoyance. It was a remarkable thing that
the Right Hon. Baronet ha I not contradicted a single
allegation made by his Hon. Colleague. All the Right
Hon. Gentleman stated was, that if he had done it, it had
been dune by his predecessors. The Right
Honourable Gentleman did not deny that there
was a secret office—he did not deny that whole
bags of letters were sent into that office. His
Hon. Friend did not say they were opened there, but
from representations made to Members of that House,
he believed the practice had been carried to an enor-
mous extent. He believed the letters had been opened
again and again at the instigation of foreign Govern-
ments. These were the allegations, and such was the
impression on the public mind ; and he would ask, was
it not the duty of that House to meet the question at
once by appointing an open Committee? He was con-
vinced the public would not visit the Hon. Gentleman
with any more condemnation than they would the Hon.
Gentleman opposite ; and if it were proved that they
lint done the same thing, so great would be the obloquy
cast upon them, that the Right Hon. Baronet would
escape, and, in that case he would be glad to have voted
fur an open inquiry.
Mr. M'GEACHY supported the motion for a Com-
mittee, and was glad that the Government had consented
to grant it, as having been a sufferer from the reconside-
ration of the decisions of the House on two former occa-
sions—(Laughter)—he should have voted according to
his sense of duty as an independent Member without
regard to the Government.
Mr. WALLACE agreed with the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, that it looked more like the two official sides
of the House coming to an arrangement, by which the
public should have the least possible information. He
was convinced the public would not be satisfied with a
Secret Committee. He really did not know what was
meant by a Secret Committee. Independent altogether
of the practice of opening letters for which warrants
were granted, the great body of the people believed
that the system was practised irrespective of those war-
rants. lii consequence they had no confidence in the
Post-office. He had in his pockets letters sent to him
within the laSt few days—some of them with printed,
others with written, notices on their backs, saying it was
not worth putting seals upon them, to give the Govern-
ment the trouble Lf opening them. He wished to: the
Post-office put upon the best footing. This Secret Com-
mittee would have no effect upon the people, and unless
the evidence were published there would be no use in
granting it all. It would be considered a mere delusion,
a mere mode of getting rid of a disagreeable subject, and
which a ould be no use whatever. The Hon. Member
for Finsbury seemed to have the power of guiding both
sides of the House, and of compelling her Majesty's Go-
vernment to take what course he was pleased to direct,
and he hoped, should there be any embarrassment in form-
ing a new Government, her Majesty would not forget
his Hon. Friend, and he hoped, following his usual
course, he would divide the House on this occasion.
Mr:MACAULAY said he should not have addressed

the House, had not some allusion been made to him in
his absence by the Right lion. Baronet. If he under- 1
stood rightly what had been stated, the Right Hon.
Baronet had imputed to him, first a dereliction of his
duty as a sworn servant of her Majesty, and, secondly,
of having made a personal attack on the Right Hon.
Baronet himself. Now he denied that in any respect
he had ever violated the oath or the duty of a Privy
Councillor; and he denied having divulged any secret
which had come to him in that capacity. He also de-
nied that in that character he had been informed of the
practices of the Post-office, and no oue in that House was
more ignorant of those practices than himself. He de-
nied with equal confidence the charge of having made an
attack on the Right Hon. Gentleman. • He came down
to the House intending to express concisely a very
strong opinion on the state of the law. If he had de-
parted from that course, it was in consequence of the •
Right Hon. Baronet having himself refused to give any I
explanation of the principles on which he had acted.
That refusal was at variance with all his ideas of Minis-
terial responsibility; and there was a wide difference
between the conduct of the Right Hon. Baronet in this
respect and that of those who had preceded him. There
was never before any Minister called to account for the
exercise of that power except Sir R. Walpole, and he
stated immediately on what principle he had acted; but
this the Right lion. Gentleman had repeatedly refused
to do. With respect to the appointment of a Com-
mittee he saw no objection to its being a secret one.
He thought it likely that some secret connected with
their foreign department might transpire if the Com-
mittee were made public. But with respect to their
internal affairs, he thought the people might be allowed
to judge for themselves. The principal question the
Committee had to report upon was the state of the law,
and he should be much surprised if they did not report
the necessity fur a great alteration in it.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL briefly explained that he
had never intended to state that there should not be a
permissive exercise of that power.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS feared that the Committee,
composed as it was exclusively of Members of the two
great political parties, would not command the confidence
of the public. The public would not be convinced by
rn might htm
appointedake , unless there were some
Committee.some in-
dashilepyouerrldel,eotnrht Memberstertehfeor.e, be inclined to move that Mr. Dun-
combo and Mr. Hume be added to that Committee.—
(Cheers.) The lion. Member for Finsbury, who had
made the charges, ought to have an opportunity of prov-
ing them ; and the Hon. Member for Montrose, in whom
the public had great confidence, and who -was used to
conducting investigations, ought also to he a Member of
the Committee.
Mr. CURTEIS thought that the thanks both of the
British and the foreign public were due to the Hon.
Member for Finsbury for having brought forward this
subject—(Cheers.) It was an indefensible and cruel act
to open the letters of foreigners, and to betray their con-
tents to their foreign Governments.—(hear, hear.) In
the name of humanity, he thanked the Hon. Member for
Finslsury.—(Cheers.) Nothing could be more unjusti-
fiable than to reseal these letters after opening them. By
so doing, the Government rendered itself a party to any
crime hich might be committed in consequence.—
(Hear, hear.) However severely the press might have
handled the Right Hon. Baronet, lie believed that if it
had not been for the independent press of this country,
, with regard to this ques-
tion;they then occupied. The
for Finsbury would have
tb oratoryieeeyn iunn would
of h
unavailing aeti nlieenv ge situationlriifoll nah' vee Memberhohs wtadoi edh
not been aided by the press
of the country.. The Hon. and Learned Member for
Bath was not justified in speaking of the press in the
manner which he bad done. The Right lion. Gentle-
man's colleagues had manfully come forward to his aid,
and to share any obloquy which might attach to it. The
thanks of the country were due to the Hon. Member for
Finsbury for his conduct on this occasion.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, in reply, observed that if he
possessed the power which the lion. Member for
him,induced them tog ) further
of directing, the Minis-
try,ttra Greenock
theyeo shouldckahadd
da
orltHe felt convinced the public would
not be satisfied with the investigation which had been
proposed that night. He did not believe that there was
any necessity for having the Committee a secret one, and
he did not believe that the country would be satisfied
with the Committee which the lion. Gentleman had eeie. ini
y attributed
have to
pro-
posed. The Right Hon. Baronet had proposed a Com-
mittee of Secrecy to inquire into the state of the law
directing the opening of letters at the General Post-
office, and the mode in which it was exercised. Now,
under those terms, he did not think the Committee could
investigate the case of Mr. Mazzini and others, he
powerletletter
e r o f
of
thought the words "the circumstances under which, and
the extent to which ithausnbdeeern
tenxoesreciwseodr,d"s,outhgehtctoombe.
l investigatingr
. ra z z
tn
andcircum-
stances
other
ma didtteede tlovtionutdliteder
iml:,ohyteiicoht thenh,e as
foreigners had been opened ; for one of the principal
charges against the Government was, that they had
opened the letters of foreign exiles at the instigation of
foreign Powers.
Sir R. PEEL said there would be no objection to the
words. Government desired the fullest investigation,

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was glad to hear that. The
public wished •to know the full extent to which the
power hail been exercised by the Government and their
predecessors. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that
he wished to state the truth, the whole truth, and no-
thing but the truth. He bad hoped that the Right Hon.
Baronet was about to make a statement of the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ; but he had
not stated one word about Mr. Mazzini. The Right
lion. Gentleman had stopped short, and had said that lie
(Mr. Duncombe) had asserted that the Dublin bag and
the Brighton bag had been called for, and that he had
said that every body's letters had been opened. Now
that was not what he had stated. He had said
that there was a secret department at the Post-
office where these deeds of darkness were done ; he said
that not only had the letters of individuals been opened,
but that, otteasionally, different bags had been carried
there, kept for an hour and a half, and then returned to
the sorters.—(Hear, hear.) The sorters, of course, did
not know what letters had been abstracted. He said, for
instance, the Dublin bag, or the. Brighton bag, might be
called for. He had every reason to believe that those
bags had been called for.—(Cheers.) Ile had not said
that everybody's letters had been opened at the Post-
office, but he had said that the roving commission which
had gone down into the manufacturing districts had, per •
haps, opened everybody's letters, and he hoped the Com-
mittee would inquire into the conduct of the roving
commission in 1842.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped they
would have no scruple if any letters of his had been
opened in saying so.—(Hear, hear.) Ho called upon
them to repeat specially if any letters from the Albany
had been opened. He had been informed that the Al-
bany letters had been stepped. He had no doubt the
Right lion. Baronet thought he was only in the execu-
tion of his duty if he had so done.—(Cheers and laughter.)
lie did not know why the Committee should be secret.
As it was, the responsibility of the investigation would
rest wholly upon the Government ; and if be should
have reason to believe that the Committee had not done
their duty, and had not satisfied the public, he should
not be precluded from again opening the question, and
proposing some other mode of investigation.— (Hear.) •
The motion was then withdrawn, and the question was
put on Sir James Graham's ameadment for the appoint •
ment of a Secret Committee.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished the words to which he
had alluded to be introduced.

Sir R. PEEL had no objection to the introduction of
the words " the extent to which, and the circumstances
under which that authority had been exercised."
Mr. ROEBUCK suggested that the words should be
rendered still more stringent.
Sir R. PEEL thought there was no necessity for any
alteration. The Committee. had full powers, and was
not composed of lawyers, who would quibble.
Mr. WAKLEY said that there was not one word
about resealing letters, and the Committee were not
bound to make any observations on that part of the
question. He suggested that the words "to report as
to the raclosing and resealing of letters" should be in-
troduced.
Mr. ROEBUCK reminded the Right Honourable
Baronet that it did not require a lawyer to quibble.
Mr. MACAULAY thought the powers which were
given to the Committee included everything necessary
for the fullest investigation.
Sir J. GRAHAM had carefully considered the terms
of the motion, and had studiously made them as wide as
possible. He proposed to have a most complete, thorough
investigation. and he hoped the motion would be per-
mitted to stand in its original terms.
The motion was then agreed to.
Sir J. GRAHAM having been given to understand
that Mr. H. Drummond had practised as a lawyer, pro-
posed to substitute the name of Mr. Wilson Patten in-
stead of Mr. H. Drummond on the Committee.

Mr. HORSIIAN did not object to any of the Mem-
bers of the Committee, but he thought it extremely
desirable that the Hon. Member for Finsbury should be
on it. He would, therefore, suggest that two names be
removed, and the names of the Under Secretary of the
Home Department, and the Hon. Member for Finsbury
be substituted for them.
Sir R. PEEL hoped the House would be satisfied to
let the Committee stand as it had been originally pro-
posed. Let it not be said of that Committee, as had
been said of another tribunal—" I looked for a judge
and I found an accuser."—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman had expressed strong opinions on the sub-
ject—so strong that he was satisfied he himself would
not wish to be on the Committee. They meant no per-
sonal disrespect to the Hon. Gentleman, but they followed
the precedent which had been set by Hon. Members
opposite in the case of the Hon. Member for Cork,
against whom the Hon. Member for Blackburn had pre-
ferred an accusation, which had been referred to a Select
Committee, from which the accuser was excluded. As
they had acted in conformity with that precedent, and
as the Committee was composed of five members oppo-
site to four members on that (the Ministerial) side of
the House, he trusted there would be no further oppo-
sition to the appointment of the Committee. •
Mr. SHEIL said that the case alluded to by the Right
Hon. Baronet was the case of an individual—this was
the case of the public. A more analagous case was
the Election Committee of the Hon. Member for Bath,
who was a member of the Committee himself, although
ho was the accuser. It was objected that this was a
Secret Committee—one great point of that objection
would , be obviated if the Hon. Member for Finsbury,
who would thoroughly investigate the subject, and in
whom the public had confidence, were appointed
a member of it. The name of Lord Sandon was then
proposed as a member of the Committee and agreed to.
On the question being put that Mr. 'Wilson Patten
be a Member of the Committee,
Mr. HORSMAN moved as an amendment, " That
Mr. Thomas Duncombe be a Member of the Committee."
Mr. DUNCO MBE hoped the Hon. Member would not
divide the House on the subject. He could assure the
House he had not the slightest wish to be a member
of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) He had certainly
made strong allegation=, and as the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman stated that there was no foundation whatever for
them, he trusted there would be the fullest investiga-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, however, that he did
not think the Committee had been fairly selected— not
according to the customary forms of the House. The
selection of Committees had been partly by Mem-
bers of the Government and partly by Members
of the Opposition—he thought that was the course
which ought to have been pursued on this occasion.
Lord J. RUSSELL would vote for the Committee as
at present constituted. He thought they had been
named in a fair spirit ; but he must say that he could
not consider the Hon. Member for Finsbury in any way
disqualified from being a member of it.
Dr. BOWRING thought the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury ought to be a member of the Committee, as that
Hon. Member represented public opinion without. the
walls of that House.—(Laughter.) That Hon. Member
had exhibited peculiar delicacy and modesty on this
occasion.—(Great laughter.) He was quite sure the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
would admit. that his Hon. Friend had acted with pecu-
liar modesty.—(Renewed laughter.) It would very
much allay the feeling which existed in that House, if
the Hon. Member for Finsbury were appointed on the
Committee.
The amendment was then withdrawn,and the members
of the Committee as already proposed were agreed to.
Mr. JAMES begged leave to move the appointment of
Mr. Duncombe as a member of the Committee.
The House divided on the motion, when there ap-
peared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority against the motion —76

Mr. WILLIAAIS then moved that M,r. Hume's name
be added to the Committee.
Dr. BOWRING seconded the motion ; but it was
withdrawn after a few words from Sir R. Peel and other
lion. Members.
Mr. DUNCOMBE then moved, that indemnity be
given to those witnesses who might be exam'ned before
the Committee. Officials at the Post-office, whose bread
depended on their situations, would not give evidence
unless they were guaranteed against loss. If those
men employed in the inner office admitted before the
Committee that they had opened letters, they laid them-
selves open to an indictment, as they could not produce
the warrant.
Sir R. PEEL said the Government would, of course,
take upon themselves the whole responsibility which
might attach to the matter, and none of the subordi-
nates should be subjected to punishment for acting ac-
cording to orders. Regarding indemnity to witnesses,
any suggestions made by the Committee on this head
would, of course be attended to.
Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice of his intention to mere
that the evidence taken before this Committee be printed.
The Committee was again named as originally consti-
tuted, and finally agreed upon.
STATE OF PRISONS.

Mr. MACKINNON rose to move fora " Select Com-
mittee to consider the reports of the inspectors of pri-
sons, and the state of discipline in the gaols, for the
adoption of an uniform system of punishment, with such
improvements in the management as can be safely
adopted." Improvements had been made in the state of
prison discipline by the Noble Lord the Member for
London in 1835, and great advantage was derived from
those improvements. The reports of the inspectors sug-
gested several improvements, but there was a great
variation in their views. Under those circumstances, he
thought it desirable that a Committee should be ap-
pointed to inquire into the subject, and till they made
their report the country would not be satisfied. There
was a variety of systems recommended, some re-
commending the silent system, some the factory system,
and others other systems. If a Commission was ap-
pointed it would not satisfy the public; but if a Com-
mittee was appointed, he thought it would give satisfac-
tion. Before the system of solitary confinement was
adopted, he thought they ought to have a Committee to
inquire if it was not the most dreadful punish-
ment that could be inflicted on human nature.
This system had been tried in Pittsburg in America,
and it was not successful. The silent system had been
tried in I'entonville, and the Penitentiary, but that
produced the most disastrous effect upon the minds of
the convicts. It was the object of several persons to
take away from the magistrates the power they possessed
and to give it to a central board. He wanted a Com-
mittee to investigate whether this was desirable. He
doubted of the principle of centralisation, which seemed
to be the order of the present times. There was cen-
tralisation of the poor-laws, centralisation of turnpikes,
centralisation of banks, and centralisation of railways.
He would not object to the Right Hon. Baronet being at
the head of a Board for carrying out a system of uniform
prison discipline, but there was no guarantee that some
person in which he could place less confidence
would not be placed in the Home-office.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed there could be no Government who wished
to centralise less than the present Government ; and
yet, from peculiar circumstances, a system of centrali-
sation was spreading v% hick might lead to serious inroads
on the liberty of the subject. It had been said that the
object he sought would be effected better by a Commis-