The Sun.
London, England, 1810-06-01 00:00:00

EAST INDIA AFFAIRS.

Mr. DU DAs moved the Order of the Day for
going'into a Committee upon the Affairs of the
'East India Company. The Paper-on the table was
referred to the said Committee.
._

On the question being put,

_ .
Mr. CH E EY V objeded to going into the Commit-
tee with such slender information for the House to
judge of the Company's affairs, as that afforded by
the Neer just referred to the Committee: He
.wished for delay, until a paper he had moved for
should be produced. He then entered into a detail
of the state of the CoMpany'i affairs for the last
thirty years, contending that they had year after
. year come to the House for relief, made promises
when that relief was prayed for, which they after-
wards never. fulfilled. In 1781 they obtained
1,500,0001. and a • renewal of their charter, their c.a.
pital being then increased to 3,200,0001. agreeing to
pay to the public a sum of 400,0001. for the renew-
al of their charter.--The• next year, and the suc-
ceeding one, they 'delayed-the revayment of the bor-
rowed money. and borrowed 500,0001. making the.
sum 2.:)00,0001.- In 1786, they obtained anexten-
sion of their capital stock of 800,0001; In 1793,
their capital was increased t 0.6,000,0001. 'ln 1794,
they torrowed another million,. making. theilebt
due to the public 3,000,0001. in all. In 1797, they
added 2,000,0001. more to their capital, making,the
whole of it 8,000,0001. and obtained leave to bor-
row on a bond 2,000,0001: more, making the total
.5,000,0001, borrowed on .bond. The Honourable
Gentleman then referred to what he termed a curi.!
ouspaper,. printed for the other House, which ex-
posed the state of the 'Company's affairs. This. pa-
per repro ented their, affairs as-in a very ruinous
state. In 1&02 and 1803, the profits of their, trade
to the East was 301;7151, In`lBo3 and 1-804, it
Was 115,31-91. In 18c4 and 1805, it had decreas-
ed to 92,0001. In 1805 and-18a1, it was only 11 owl:
And in 18,6 and 1807, instead of profit, they had
-to. encounter a very heavy and-serious loss, for they
Were minus 204,0001. Having descanted on these'
;penes, the Hon. Gentleman urged -the necessity of
further information, and stated his intention of tak-
ing the sense of the House, if. the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman persisted in going into the Committee. -
Mr. It DIJNOAS would nut say the conduct of the
:Hon.-Gentleman Was disorderly, but he thought the
mode of opposition which he had adopted extreme-
ly improper.. In the Committee the Hon. Gentle-
man knew he would have an opportunity of reply-
ing to what might be advanced, if he disapproved of
the, grounds on which he applied-to Parliament to
assist the East India COmpany. The Hon. Gentle-
man had riot anticipated many of his arguments,
and he shoald not at present .go much into the sub-
jed. 'T: :e application of the East_ India Company
to Parliament to extend their capital, he contended,
was no sign of their being a sinking Company. He
hadmo ohje&ion to the Exposition the Hon. Gen-
tleman had spoken of being before the House, but
he- the:Tht the general statement of all the affairs of
India Company, which had been made out
to a fiery late period, would be sufficient to enable
the - House tp .form a proper judgment on all he
should state to the Committee. It so happened that
'Papers oe the subject, a list of which -filled a page
of the order-book, were about to be printed for the
information of the House, and the exposition al-
Wed to was one among them. Almosf every paper
befote the Committee, he conceived, to be to' the
lull as important to the elucidation of the subjed as
th at. The supplement to that paper had not only
heen'hefore the Committee, but printed Copies of it
had been distributed to the Members, that it might
be read by all. If that supplement to the exposi-
tion had not been read by the Honourable Gentle-
man, as he supposed it_ had not, that circumstance
could furnish no argument against their going into
the Committee. As to the various topics started by
the Honoureble Gentle Man, they would be more.
properly diwusl/2ed in the Committee, and it would
then be for them to determine what degree of at-!
tention should be paid to them ; he would, there-
fore Move that the Speaker should leave the Chair.
The question being put, after a few words from
Mr. Tierney and Lord Merpeth, the House di,
Vor going into the committee 43—Against it 7.
Qn re-entering the gallery, we found the House
a Committee, and
Mr. DVND.AS his legs, arguing the propriety of
rantiig the East India Company a loan, and setting !
;ti; the tosses they had sustained, and-the evils
Ender which they continued to labour. The accounts
P. 9,4 beers Tc*v.c4 from 411 paFts. of the -ast 41- t

dies, but before next Session, he trusted they would
.be in possession of fulr information on the subject.
ale House -could then consider of the manner in
which the extraordinary demand should be met.—
The debts of the Company contracted in enlarging
their possessions ought not to be paid out of their
commercial profits, but out of their colonial revenue.
He would propose -that. Exchecper Bills should be
issued to the amount of 1,500,0001. for the service
of the East India Company.. •He. wished the period
for which this was to be granted to be limited, that
they must come to Parliament in the course of the
ensuing Session. This might excite surprise, but
he wished -the whole subject to be brought before
Parliament. With respect to the inquiryof the Ho--
nourable Gentleman as to the means of paying the
loans so advanced, he would only say look at the
warehouses of the East India Company, and the
goods and effects therein lodged, and then say if pro-
perty to the amount- of ten or twelve millions did
not afford sufficient security for a lOan of 1,600;0001.
That however was not all; the country was at pre- .
sent at a considerable expence for the naval force
employed in India. That expence, amounting to
400,0001. annually, the Directors were willing to take
upon themselves. The Right Hon. Gentleman thert
entered into a detail of the progress of the affairs of
India, From which we understood that the expen-
diture, in consequence of the wars in which the Com-
pany was involved and the losses they expeTienceci,
exceeded their profits in 1805-6, by 2,587,0001. In
1806-7, by 3,263,0,001.. In 1807-8, they were con-
siderably less, their amount being • only 130,0001,
above the revenue, and in the account of 1808-9
the last received,there appeared a surplus of 138,0001.
The treasury of the Company was in a flourishing state
being richer in cash, bills, &c. than ever it had been
before. The military establishment, he would ob-
serve, might be reduced, there being -no reason for.
believing hostilities were again likely to occur. He
Then went into a statement of the debts of the Com-
pany, which he observed had decreased by the sum
of I,foo,othai. within the last year. - Under all the
circumstances, should the East India Company ap- -
ply for a renewal of their Charter, be-should not be
one of those who would wish it to be renewed on
the present or any thing like the present terms. He,
however, was of opinion, that whenever the East
India Company brought the subject before Parlia-
!tient their trade would be safely and properly esta-,
blished. He concluded by moving—" That it is
the opinion of this Committee that the loan of a
sum, not exceeding 1,500,0001. should, under the
.pres'ent -cireunnstances, be advanced for the service
of the East India Company."
Mr. CREEVY was not satisfied with the security
for the payMent of the loan. So far from the affairs
of the East
.India Company having improved since
the year 1808, it appeared from their own state- "
ments that they were actually 3,000,0001. worse in'
.1810. They had forfeited all :their engagements
with the Public, and now they came, as had been,
stated, to borrow of the country, because they were
unable to borrow elsewhere.

Mr. R. DUNDAS did not recollect any suth state-
ment, and thought the Company ought nut to be
censured as having brokeil their engagements, be-
Cause being constantly,at war, for which a provision
was originally made, -they had not contributed that
to the service of the State which, but in case of
war, they were bound to do by the A 61..
Colonel ALLEN thought the coudea of the
Company marked by a want of fairness and Can-
dour.

General ASTON made a few observations, but in a
tone so very inaudible, we could not, collet his4en-
timents.

Mr. G. JOHNSON wished the House to recur to
the practke of having annual statements laid before
it of the affair's of the Company. He thought the
country at present gained by our possessions in In-
dia from 3 to 4 millions annually, but still a re--
galar statement ought to be made, and a yearly
Budget pioduced as formerly. He was. for grant-
ing the Loan, conceiving it
.to be, a necessary
sacrifice to uphold so valuable a part of the Em-
pire.

Mr. GRANT thought the East. India Company had
been long unjustly dealt with, particularly in that
House. The conduet of the ,East India CoMpany,
which, through the wars in which they had been
engaged, had so embarrassed their circumstances,
had been sanctioned by the House and by the coun-
try. Why, then, were they spoken of as being
bankrupts .in their commercial capacity ? Much
had been said in that Hou-e to the prejudice of the
Company. This was misusing the freedom of speech
there enjoyed. If the system were wrong, it should
be changed at once ; but if still suffered to exist, it
was not well thus to shake its credit at home and
abroad.

Mr. PRENDERGAST said, the circumstancesattend-
ing the late embassy to Persia ought to be brought
before the House. The, present state of the Com-
pany's treasury did not arise from their commerce
but from the repeated loans they had obtained. Ile
was irf favour of the motion.

After a few words from Lord Morpeth and Mr.
Creevey,,a division took place, when the numbers
were—Ayes 77—Noes 10.

A short conversation took place between Mr.
Whitbread and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on
the report of the Committee on the funding of Ex-
chequer Bills. Tile Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted that the suhje& required their grave consi-
deration, but that he could not immediately gibe it
that consideration to which it was entitled. Mr.
Whitbread thought an example should be imme-
diately made of the offenders, but was willing to,
give the. Right Hon. Gentleman all the "time of the
recess to consider of re-construaing the office. The
conversation was tertr.inated by the Speaker (no
question being before the House), desiring to know
which Order of the Day the Hon. Gentleman wished
to move the reading of.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the report of the Assessed, Tax Colle6tion
Bill went through a Committee. The resolutions
were read pro forma, ordered to be printed, and
to be taken into further consideration on Tuesday,
Mr. MARTIN, before they proceeded to the busi-
ness of the day, wished to know if it was the inten-
tion of the Chancellor of tae Exchequer to press on
the Hou,e the Bill for the regulation of the Office
of the Registrar of the Admiralty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied it
was not his intention to press it that night.

runuc -EXPENDITUT{E. • • -
• I guards_ of the Crown. The question . before the
Mr. D. •
GSDDY brought up the report of the House was not for the abolition of sinecures to ant
Committee on Ptllific Expenditure, the two first extent; it was 'much .narrower. The mode now'
resolutions of which were read. On the second, proposed was not decisive ;an investigation should
which 'set-forth the expediency of abolishing Sine- be set en foot, to learn the sinecures whiCh ought to
cure Piaces,
.1 be abolished, and the offices which deserve to be red.
Mr. BANKES rose to move an Amendment on munerated. The question was simply, whether the
this resolution, 'which he, thought to be connected thing should remain with tilt old name, or Obtain 3
with the dignity of the House. The reasons Which , ' new one, both being equally obnoxious to the pub
' induced him to vote against the motion for a review lie. It was impossible to obtain from the House
of the state of the representation of the People, he ; precise definition of the offices to which they in-
would not now explain ; however, if he was asked - tended to grant pensions. He would not agree with
why. he voted in that majority,.he would simply an- 1. the amendment, unless he could plainly perceive
seer, that this question was not desired to be enter- what was to be substituted, and what was to be
ed into by the respeelable part of the Public. Once ; abolished. He was convinced, that with proper at-
he did vote on the contrary ; but the opinions of tention of the Government, great retrenchments
the people .were different then. He thought it to might be made. He did not. approve of the pritaico
be necessary that the representation should be equa- ' of pointing out individtials in the enjoyment of erne`
lized, and the expences attending.eleatioos diminish- luments of this nature.—Upon these grounds he.
ed. It was the wish of the. people to have a mo- conceived it safe to rest on the resolution in,its origi-
detate
_and :substantial reform, not of that -kind nal' form;

by which a certain class, under the notion of
reform, wish to crush the Constitution. It was not
.the fangs of the ci4untry, that if part of the
privileges of this House should be taken away,•the
whole would be lost ; the people; he said, had a right
to complain ; the notions of the class of persons he
had just adverted to f.-11 far short of his intentions;
"he believed they would deprecate; nay almost abhor
the motion he was about to bring before the /louse;
he meant that description of persons who for the last_
three months have endeavoured to bring the House
into contempt. He now wished- to hold out 'a line
of demarcation, as it were a marked line of reform
which would eventually make the House respeCted.
Having thus prefaced, he now wished to state his
plan first making a fear observatiOns on the eco-
nomy and influence of the Crown. W;th respea
to economy, he did not submit his motion with the
hope of obtaining any great saving, every one must
know that on this head minor considerations can
avail little, it is in 'the grOt establishments alone
that effeEtual retrenchment can be looked for; he
trusted the House would not, meet. again without
bringing this measure forward, and then he hoped'
public establishments would be circumscribed in
such limits as would meet the resources of the
country. In his motion he intended to substitute
in the place of sinecures, pensions, to be disposed of
by"the Crown, to persons who' have held high and
important offices on the Civil Establishment, taking
from this, the remuneration to Lord Chancellors, and
the predecessors of the Chair he now addressed.---
These he conceived to be a burthen on the fund of
the country. With respeat to the influence- of the
Crown there, were many opinions, it was hardly pos-
sible in the' constant increase'of revenue, to see the

increase .of establishments, without observing the
many obvious sources of the-influence of the Crown;
he did not now speak in referenee to any .particular
government. He granted that 'the revenue was well
colletted, and at a comparatively small expence,ind
lie believed that there were no more places created
than were necessary to disbliarge the. duties .of
the various establishments, which were most-la-
borious t frorn,fhe . naval and military brancl.es, 'it
Was impossible to say, but the Crown derives much
power, but this could not admit of any large diminu-
tion. The House would ill discharge its duty if it
was hastily to abolish sinecures. There were many
ofsmall inheritance, but of great abilities, to whom
these remunerations were a groat inducement to ex-
ertion ; if it was otherwise, the House-would not be
in.possession of such men. Perha.ps.it
.would be
said, that the House would.take upon itself to remu-
nerate-merit, It might do so : but if such a power
was lodged here, it would be' subversive of the Con-
stitution, and bean encroachment on the King, the
_ fonntair of Ix:Tours and rewards. If this was put
into effeet, instead of obtaining economy, it would
be running into extravagance. The House of Corn-
;mons, was a body which should not be trusted in
, such matters. - As to any,personal question, to use
the phrase of a Roman author, it was a more pretiam
fes,tinandi, for 'whenever any- mailer' of compassion
came before the House, every due- consideration
was' prevented. 'To two Right Hon. Gentlemen;
(Messrs Perceval and Yorke) he paid the highest
tribute of praise for giving.-up, or rather foregoing,
on'aceouna of the 'situation of the country, cer-
tain peaumary considerations to which their of-
fices- entitled them. What he now intended of-
fering was perfettly adequate, ana would be agree.
able to-the Officers themselves. As to Ms. Burke's

Mr. H. THORNTO4 thought, that the various state-
ments of his Hon. Friend were much mistaken. The
professing to follow. Mr. Burke in his ideas on the
subjeEt, and not doing so, W 23 an objection which had
been often adduced. He said the remuneration now
proposed was capable.of applying in all cases. Mr,
Burke's view of sinecures was not extensive, be kept
his eye only on the great sinecures in the Exchequer,
On this subjeef there were many
.grou,nds of die
content; popularity should be thought in Many re'
speCts true Wisdom., The chief causes of unpopula"
rity were the taxes, and the population exceeding
the means of subsistence.. He supported the .reso-
lution.
Mr. BATHURST explained.,
Mr. MACDONALD thought that from the Corn•
mittee some sensible and. substantial advantages
should arise; the greatest: approbation was due to
the Hon. Gentleman who proposed the amendment,
inasmuch as he persevered in- the most unwearied.
exertions, notwithstanding the constant opposition
of his Majesty's Ministers. He in vain looked for
any ground which could justify a Representative in
refusing his Constituents to support such a. salutary
measure as the present. The objc‘Clion of the irld
, significancy of any economical attempt he conceived
not to be founded in security. It did not come Weil
from the advisers of the Walcheren Expedition, and
from those who had buried:, British, treasure in the
bottom of Spanish rivers. He wished to ask Mi-
nisters for the account of the successes which no/
balance our loss. He agreed with the Amendment.
Mr. W. TAYLOR thought that the simple ques-
tion was, whether the measure invaded -the pret°:.
gative of the Crown or no. He was in favour 0
the amendment. •

Mr. WILBERFORCE contended, lhat the Prejudices
of mankind would be done away when they exec'
cised that common sense with . which they were
gifted by nature, and recognised the immutable prin'
ciples ofjustice.which bestowed pensions on •deserv-
ing objects. It was a distinct thing -to m..ke such
provision, and was quite beside the unpopular act o(
giving sinecure' He recommended the tie"
cessity of endeavouring In gain the public esteem )31
lightening the burthens which pressed so heavily."-*
He did not think that there was so much ofclarooer
as to induce the House to think that the Public bP'
hayed indecently. It was the duty of the House t°
secure the atfeetions of the- people, and it_conlad pot'
in WS. opinion be done More effectually than by con-
ciliation. Economy was - not to -she measured -bY
money merely, but by stewing the
.Public that josc,
compensation was giVen to individuals only who back
rendered service to the-State. The use of economy
was reforming by principles of justice and reason,
and by acceding to the wishes of the people. - •
Mr. LONG was not assured that the substitution
of pensions in lieu of sinecures would be more agree'
--able to the Wishes of the people. In stating so, the
Hon. Gentleman meant no more than that his own
wishes were for the substitution, and consequently
he wished , his oA n opinions to be taken as the
standard of , the people. It was the common prac;
lice of the Gentlemen opposite, when they taike"
of the people's wishes, to state arguinents whiji
clearly shewed that
.they urged their own opinievs
merely. With resped to pensions being substitot:
ed in lieu of sinecures, no reason had been adduce!,
to convince the House that the substitution Would
benefit the Public, for the,burthens would be as se'
verely felt. .
The .House then divided on the amendment. .

opinion on the influence • of the Crown, he op-
posed himself to himself, for in 1782, he did not
attempt to notice the Pension list and other relative
matters. The principle on Which he now aried lay
in a narrow compass. He was afraid the House had
voted' in this Session some things not in unison. with
the general sense of the :Public. He was pleased
that no new. taxes were imposed, buf he regretted
the want of reduction in the Estab ishments.—
He ask,- d the House, was it not e4pedient to close
this Session with something like an act of grace, and
to spew the people that its ears were not totally shut
against all reform ? On what principle ought sine-
cures to exist ? He moved an amendment, .
" The if the word- It

Noes . . . . .• 95
• Ayes . . . sof
Majority for the amendment . . . i•
While the Ayes were out, Mr. BANKES addre9sl
ed them in the lobby, and stated, that 4i1011.1d the
amendment be carried, tie should propose the other
resolutions in the printed paper, in lieu of the
amendment of Mr. Perceval.
On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found
Mr: BAN/US moving an. Amendment to the secbilL7
res,Aution, in substance stating, " That it is expo'
dient to abolish all offices filled by depty, providiug
also that security should be given for the due Pei''.
form-ance of the duties attached to the same:" a
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER SUggeSte

,at after the words is.expedient,' in the
resolution, the remaining should be omitted, and the
following inserted :—" After prOviding, sufficetit
sums for his Majesty to recompence the Hig)). Offi-
cers on the CiVil.Establishment, tO aboiisli all Odi,
ces in the Revenue, which are without employment,
except those conne6ted with his Majesty's Service,
and that of t he RoyatFamily." •
On the Amendment being read,
Lord Alti.ToNr observed, that the system of.sine-
cure could not be defended. ge conceived it to be
a .mockery • to appoint "Cotnmittees and receive re-
ports, Without putting into effea_ theii recommen.

to the Hon. Gen.iemen to postpone his amendment,
but Mi. Bankes persevered. The Gallery was again
cleared for a division, when the numbers were I°'
the amendment—
Aye's . . . . 111
Noes . . •
Majority for Mr. BANK AS'S Amendment_lt
. . The .Gallery was not again opened. The House
continued in discussion for some time upon the Otlict
amendments, which were at length postponed.
The House adjourned at Half-past Three o'C1o;i1
tiii4 morning.i

dations. Mucli as heappraved of the Hon. Gentle-
man's ideas, he could not but condemn his observa-
tions and insinuations on the charader of Mr. Burke.

He was,surprised id hear him say,- that because the
people did not wish for reform, he would therefore
vote against it; his system of independence was
very extraordinary. It was the duty of the House

to lop otf any thing which might tend to increase
the influence of the Crown.
Colonel BASTARD thought that the true power of
the Crown rested in the attachment of the people.

It was incumbent on' the House to save all that it

could. The. principle ' of., sinecures was bad, it
ought to be abolished. He voted for the goaend-

men t.

Mr. BATHURST said, that no one could doubt that
the good opinion of the public is one o the safe.