The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-15 00:00:00

V.AGI'. ANT LAWS.

Mr. CHETWYND said, that the subject respect-
ing which he had given notice was of the utmost
importance in every point of view. That the
County Rates had increased to an alarming ex-
tent was notorious, and that they pressed upon
the Agriculturist was equally notorious. In con-
sequence of decisions in the Courts of Law, it ap-
peared that neither money lent upon mortgage,
nor mont.y in- the Funds, was liable to -contri-
bute to the County Hates ; and as a consequence,
they, as he observed before, fell principally upon
the Agriculturists. It was generally known
that the crime of vagrancy had lately increased
almost be% ond measure. The late -Dr. Colqu-
Loan, who was universally admitted to be well-
informed upon this subject, estimated thescharge
of supporting wandering beggars at 15,0001. a-
year ; and by the best accounts it might at pre-
sent be taken at 50,000/. a-y ear, exclusive of the
support of those who were confined in Gaols and
Houses of Correction. Altogether the charge
eould not be fairly taken at less than 100,0001.
This might, he admitted, be attributed in some
degree to the peculiarity of the times. The prin-
ciple upon which our Poor Laws was founded had
become altered ; for that principle assumed, that
every man able and willing to work could obtain
employment. From various causes, it now was
not the case ; and while many of the poorer
classes had strong claims upon our commissera-
tion, there were others, whole congregations of
beggars, whose sole object was plunder. Such
persons, when driven to extremity, generally
committed a theft for which they suffered. im-
prisonment. At the expiration of that imprison-
ment they were turned loose ; and they often,
swore to different places of settlement, so that
the expense of their removal was very great.--
He had known cases of such persons being passed
18 or 20 times. Ile had conversed upon this sub-

jcet some of tire most intelligent gaolers,
who assured him that more than half their pri,
soners had been beggars or poachers. With a view
'to the ultimate meaNlre he had in contemplation, it
was necessary for him to establish three proposi'
tions,---the abuse, the remedy, and a necessity for
the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry, in
order distinctly to point out that remedy. With
respect to the present Law upon this subject, he
should state that he had found no less than 43
Statutes relating to vagrancy. The first, in point
of date, was the sth of Edward the Third. The
next was the. 10th.of henry the Seven-di. This
was somewhat material, as it related_ to the pu-
nishment of vagrants.. The next was the '22d
Statute of Henry the Eighth, whiclrdirected'the
punishment of whipping-- for vagrancy ; and the
next was the 27th..0f the same King, which im-
posed a severer punishment upon sturdy vaga-
bonds ; and declared a •third offence punishable
with death. Other Statures were passed in the
reigns of Elizabeth, James the First, Charles the
Second, and Queen Anne ; brit these were mat-
ters of curious research rather than of impor-
tance in considering the I).resent subject.. Tire
principal Statute now to be -conidered had been
passed about 70 years. It was the 17th •George
the Second, chapter 5. This Act gave .re_wards
for the apprehension of vagrants and gave direc-
tions respecting the passing of them from .parish
to parish, and for the hearing of appeals against
those passes. Upon this Statute. coming under
the consideration of the -late Lord Kenyon and
Mr. Justice Ashurst, they observed the .Statute
was so very inaccurately drawn, that it was
very difficult to understand it. Now if those
Learned Persons found a difficulty in under-
standing the Statute, it was not matter of sur-
prise that it could not be understood .by Gentle-
men who were Justices .of the Peace. ,With
respect to the rewards provided for by'this Sta-
tute; he could not do better than refer. to the
Police Report, prepared by an Hon.- Member
not then in his place (Mr. Bennett,) whose -la-
bours on this subject demanded the thanks of
every friend to the Country. The Report,speak-
Ig of these Rewards, stated a practice among

le police officers of giving money to poor peoi

and then taking them up as beggars, in order to
obtain the reward. This practice was stated to he
very general ; and he (Mr. C.) happened to
know that it was not confined to London ; the
constables in the country had practised this fraud
to a very considerable extent, and he was sorry
to say that the Magistrates had not discounte-
nanced it as they ought to have done. It might
probably he thought better to abolish the
reward altogether ; but at all el-oils it would
be desirable to modify it so as to prevent this
abuse as much as possible ; for as the vagrant and
the constable often conspired together, it was
absolutely necessary to put an end to this in-
famous jobbing. Another abuse arose out of the
fact that vagrants were often passed, in a stage
waggon for instance, unaccompanied by any offi-
cer ; and as the parish allowed a sum upon the
supposition that every vagrant was passed in the
care of an officer, this ‘vas a fraud upon the
parish.----There was a late case within his own
knowledge, which occurred about two miles from
Birmingham. The Officer paid ss. to the wag-
goner for the carriage of each vagrant, and charg-
ed 30s. for each to the parish ; and this occurred
several hundred times in the course of the year.
Then with respect to the power of appeal. The
appeal was to the General Quarter Sessions ; but

this appeal was only allowed in cases where
a pass was actually issued. Upon this part of
the subject, he- uuderstood many inconveniences
had arisen, and especially to the parish of Step-
ney, to which many persons had been sent under

the vulgar error, that all persons born at sea, be.
long to the parish of Stepney.—(A laugh.)—
Having, as he trusted, established his first pro-
position, he believed the second and third would
necessarily follow. The Hon. Member conclud-
ed by mo‘ing " For a Select Committee, to in-
quire into, and report the practice of the laws re-
lating to Vagrants,and to consider the expediency
of amending the same."
Mr. HAl:Bonn seconded the motion at some
length, but in a tone of voice almost inaudible in
the Gallery. The Honourable Member spoke of
the Society for the Suppression of Mendicity, as
having done much good, and as tending to pro-
mote habits of industry among the poorer classes.
lie stated,' that. St. George's parish,-11anover-
square, had 18 officers, and the Society only six,
and that. while the pariSh officers had in .one year
apprehended only 23 vagrants, the.ofiicers of the
Society had in the same time, apprehended, in
that parish, a number exceeding that twenty-
three by upwards of 200.—(blear, hear !)—The
case of Foreigners also he thought deserving of
consideration. Many Foreigners who had mar-
rie4 and settled in this. country Were reduced in
their old age; and ,applied to the Society for re-
lief, as they were not entitled to parochial assist-
ance. The Society referred them to the Consuls
of their several countries. The Consuls said these
people were not entitled to relief from them, as-
they had become domiciliated here and thus these
persons were left without assistance. Another

case for consideration was that of orphans and
children deserted by their parents. Respecting
these, doubts and difficulties had often arisen re-
specting the proper settlement. The next sul►-
ject which he thought demanded attention was
the case of acquitted prisoners: These were too
often discharged without a farthing i❑ their
pockets ; and being without character were ex-
posed to every temptation. In this situation,
tainted by all the -corruption-of a prison, it was
to be expected that they would return to their
old companions. This part of the subject he
thought well deserving the attention of the Com-
mittee.

Mr. N. CALVERT, Mr. CARTWRIGHT, and SP-
',era! other Mcrnbers spoke shortly in support of
the Motion, i.nd in warm approbation of the lion.
Member who brought it forward.

The Motion was then agreed to, amid a Corn-
mittee appointed.

Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that as he had a
motion to bring forward of considerable import-
ance (respecting Naples we be,lieve), he trusted
his lion. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen,
would permit it to take preference of another

notice which was to be brotrght before the .Rouse
by his lion. Friend.
Mr. IlumE said that his Motion was also of
considerable importa►rce, but he had no wish to:
stand in the way of any measure of his llononr-
able Friend. Mr. litune's Motion nits post-
poned.

IMITATION COFFEE.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER referr&l
to a communication which had passed on a former
evening between !IMHOF' and a Gallant General
(sir it. Wilson), respecting.certain prosecutions
for selling- a powder in imitation of coffee. We
could not distinctly hear the Right Hon. Gentle-
Man, but we understood him to say, that any case
laid before Government would meet with every'
consideration.
Sir ROBERT I.VILsoN begged to thank the
Might Hon. Gentleman not only for the present
communication, but. for the manner in which he
had attended to the original representation of the
circumstance. It was such as justified -the uni,
versa! opinion of the conduct of that Rt. lion
Gentleman in private life.
Mr. licaii; gave. notice of a Motion for to-
morrow, for the production of certain papers ex•
planatory of the Army Estimates.
Lord A. llamturoN moved for an Account of
the Hereditary Revenues of Scotland for the
years 1818, 1819, and 18'20 ;.and an Account of
all Payments lssued from the Exchequer of Scot-
land in those years.—Ordered.
Sir G. WAR RENDER gave notice, that he should
bring forward.the• Navy Estimates on Monday.
AUSTRIAN LOAN.
Mr. It. SMITH rose, pursuant to notice, to move
for the production of certain Papers connected
with the Loan due to this country from the Aus-
trian Empire.; and for the payment of which, the
Hon. Member stated the Emperor had pledged
himself, and given security by notes upOn the
Bank of Vienna. The lion. Member said, that
in the year 1791, a Message front his then 'Ma-
jesty had been brought •down to that House,
recommending•a Loan to the Austrian•Eanperor,
for the purpOse of enabling him to carry on the
war against France ; and• in the year 1797, a
rnilar Message had• been brought down. Upon
both those "Messa.fies the Loans had taken place
on the security •of'the pledge arid the notes in
question ; not one sixpence of which Loans had
been repaid.' In :fact, those notes were a part
of the curiosities, the lions,•in the Bank of Eng-
land (in n hich they Were deposited), fot the in-
spection of those who went to look at that esta-
blisinnent.—(A, laugh !)—The sum • was 17 mil-
lions, and the loss to this country was, not only
the amount qf the principalr but the amount of
the interest-lalso, which was regularly. paid by
this country, and which amounted to about one
million annually, lie thought the House had a
right to. call upon the Noble Lord to satisfy the
country, by shelving .the different. ,applications
made for the repayment of,this Loan, and the cor-
respondence which had followed those applica-
tions, Of the policy which governed the making
of the Loan he should say nothing, but there
certainly had been a distinct understanding that
it was not to be considered in the nature olio
subsidy. Mr. Pitt declared that it Was a
loan made in the face of all the world and
that there had never been any thing in the conduct
of Austria to induce a belief that she would ob-
serve - a line of conduct which would not be less
dishonourable than impolitic. Mr. Pitt even
stated that he conceived the safety 9f Austria de-
pended upon her scrupulous •performance of her
pecuniary engagements, lie afterwards spoke of
the advantageous terms Upoti which the Emperor
had obtained the loan. This circumstance might
probably he remembered by lion. Members, as
Mr. Pitt's remark produced an observation from
Mr. Fox, who'referred to the pas'sage in Hamlet,
speaking of the practice of Courts, which never
haggled about the price, but. always haggled
about the day of payment.—(A laugh.)--Bti
when a period had arrived in this country, -a
which it was :doubted whether the landholde
had -a, right to his estates ; when the ors 'r o
things was reversed ; -when the tenant considerec
it a favOur to his landlord to cultivate the ground.
when the rent was paid out of capital it was no

too much to consider the justice of calling in: a
debt, the payment of which would, at the present
moment, be. so acceptable: There could be no
question of the ability of Austria to discharge it.
Since the Revolution no. country had acquired
such an ascendancy as Austria. The lion. Mem-
ber then took a geographical survey of the Aus-
trian Empire, its population (which he stated at
thirty millions), audits national resources. The
system of extortion which he said she was prae-
tising in Italy, appeared to declare that plunder
was her only object.• Why, he asked, should
not Austria be called upon to. pay a debt, the
contracting of ;which enabled her to acquire her
.present.bene4is.?•. LlQ.reptated,. that there...could
be no question of 'her ability to pay ; for with.
respect to her other engagements. She had paid
off the old and a great Part of the neW•deb:.-----
Neither could he See any reason for abstaining to ,
demand the debt on the score of policy. Her
commercial laws were.* as severe against this
country as' against any Other, and -our refraining
to demand the debt; would not only be a tacit
approbation of her present proceedings, but
Would make us the supporters of them.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.)—Austria was the pa-.
troness of principles against which' we had pro-
tested ; and looking at what .was now passing on
the Continent, the present was the most favOur-
able time for. demanding payment of the debt in
question. The Hon. Gen:leman concluded by
Imoving " For the prOductionof Copies or 'Ex-
tracts of all communications between the Go-
vernment of this country •and the Austrian• Go..-
verntnent, relating to the re-payment of sum,
due to this country on account of Loans made to
that Government in the years 1794 and 3797.
Lord CASTLEREAGH did not rise. for the Pur-
pose of making any opposition to the motion 'of
the lion. Member. lie only wished to Sug-
I.Test, for time convenience of the llotise; that
it would be better not to • discuss the question,
until after the production of the papers moved
for, which, arising from a correspondence of
twenty-five years, were of Course•Yery volumin-
ous. He would 'make only' 'one or two remarks

on what had-?alien from the llou. Mover, with-
out at all entering into the merits of the question.
The Hon. Gentleman spoke of the debt of Aus-
tria 'being seventeen millions. He was right in
that part ; for it had become so from the addi-
tion of interest. But originally the debt was
only four millions,. and not. of the magnitude to
which it was at present arrived. The Honour-
able Member .aiso sdmed_ to conceive, that it
would have been becoming in his Majesty's Go-
yerament to have spontaneously brought forward
this subject in Parliament. But he should re-
member that:the subject had been before Par-
liament at 110 distant period. In the house of
Peers, in 1815, a discussion had taken place upon
it, and he (Lord Castlereagh) had then had an
opportunity of stating; the grounds of the for,
bearance
,of this Government with respect to
Austria, and the reasons then (riven:had appear-
ed perfectly satisfactory to both Houses. Since
that period an effort had been made to realize a
part of the money ; but it had not been a success-
ful one: On the correspondence which had taken
place on that occasion would .be seen the grounds
upon- which Austria refused .to comply. He did
not mean to go into the merits of the question ;
hut several subsidiary arrangements had been
'made with Austria subsequent to this original
one without the debt being brought nearer to a
settlement. He
,did
_not wish to be understood
as ,throwing blame on any one, but it. was a fact
that arrears of subsidy were made to Austria in
1795, without setting off .the arrears of subsidy
to ,the outstanding debt. The Noble Lord, in
conclusion, repeated his hope that the House
Would not go into a discussion of the merits of
the question until the papers were produced.-
They were very voluminous, and the House
would see from these that there had been many
difficulties in the way of settling these accounts
With Austria.
Sir J. NEweanT remarked, that the Noble
Lord (Lord Castlereagh) seemed to think, that
because five years ago there had been a discussion
on. this subject in another place, that was-a satis-
factory reason for not goihg into the question
then. As his• Hon. Friend who made this mo-
tion had said, whatever were the distresses of
Austria formerly, thatarg,ument in her favour no
longer existed, as by her own act she showed.
With respect to the present motion before the
House, there was not only question of a debt
from Austria to this country, but one from that
House to the country, which was, whether they
should burden the country with fresh impositions,
when there was 17 millions due to it ? lle cer-
tainly was surprised, when he considered that
the ficst principle of the Holy Alliance was good
faith, that this debt should now remain to be
claimed. When the loan was made, Mr. Pitt
was so satisfied as to the solidity of the Austrian
faith, that he made one of the strongest asseve-
rations on the subject in that House that had ever
been made. ' The Noble Lord opposite (Lord
Castlereagh), being heir to Mr. Pitt's power and
principles, must take the incumbrances with the
inheritance, and with his power and principles
perform xvltat he guaranteed. He (Sir J. New-
port) could not help recollecting the solemn pro-
phecy of. Mr. Fox upon that occasion, that this
loan, if: made, would remain for ever a debt to
this country.
Lord, CasTr.r.nr.aan observed, that he had
never- said the discussion whit.* had taken
place in 1815, on this subject, was in any way
calculated to do away the debt of Austria with
this country, or the propriety of demanding it.
The motion was then put and agreed to.
A 11. M Y EAT I NIATEg.
On the motion of the CLEANCELLOR of the Ex 7
enEon:Ea, the House resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of Supply.
The proposed vote in supply,' of 81,458 men,
for the land forces of his Majesty, the considera-
tion of which had been adjourned on a former
evening. having been read,
Mr. MACDONALD rose to redeem the pledge'
which he had given to propose a...reduction of
10,000 men on the military establishments sub-
mitted to the House. Feeling that the discus.
sion of the other night went completely in sup.
port of that proposition, and knowing that many
/lon. Members would follow him, among whom
there were some whose knowledge and indefati-
gable industry -would do far more than any thing
he-could effect, he would content himself- with a
very few observations, by way of preface to his
motion. His firm conviction was, that the case,
as stated and argued on the other side, did not
prove the necessity for voting more than 60,000
men, which would allow 25,000 for the Colonies,
and 35,000 for the Home Service—including ar-
tillery and reliefs the total would be 65,000.
Ire was not aware what apology the House
could offer the country for voting a larger
force. Nevertheless, as he and his Hon. Friends.
were obliged to cons.der what was practicable,
rather than what was just and desirable, he would
limit the reduction which he meant to propose
to 10,000, instead of moving for a reduction-
of'l6,ooo, -to. which the Estimates ought pro-
perly to he brought down. He did not pre-
tend to fetter or embarrass GOvernment as to
the particular branch! s in which the reduction
should be enforced ; whether in the new or the
old Colonies, Ireland, or England, or in, what
proportions from them all, he left for their deter-
mination. But he hoped and trusted that the
Committee would concur with him that. it was
high time to consider the distresses of the coun-
try, with a view to their relief, and that there
could. not be a better commencement for such a
labour than enforcing, the retrenchment of an
useless and wanton expenditure.' To -do away
with the effects of any 'supposed exigencies of
State, he would for a moment hold the attention
of the House to the consideration of the services
which, were said to demand these forces. -The
number of men required for the Colonies two
years- ago was 30,000. Supposing Government
to be so disposed, in Malta and the lonian Isles
alone they might make a reduction) of 14 0r.15
hundred men ; -there would still be left 50,000
Men in arms, including artillery, for •the other ser-
vices of the country. There would be ten vete-
ran battalions, amounting to 11,000 men, about
to be disbanded, Which, as experience had prov-
ed, being fully qualified, could at any time be

brought into immediate Service. There would
be 65,000 regular troops in England and Ireland;
and besides these, 37,000 yeomanry cavalry, and
20,000 volunteers. Upwards of 100,000 men
would be ready. for efficient service ; and look-
ing at the disbanded militias, which might be
called out and rendered el&ctive at a very short
notice, in three months at the utmost, 200.000
men in arms could be callZ.l out. • The hon.
Commissioner of Woods and Forests opposite,
had cautioned the House
.to keep the country in
a state which would enable it to resist aggreSsion.
It was with this view, and from an earnest desire.
to uphold the honours and dignity of the coun-
try, that lie proposed a reduction. It was diffi-
cult. to say to what degree the financial embar-
rassments of the country must go, before they
would place a .country so full of high spirit as
this country was known to be, in a situation
which would prevent it from resisting aggression.
He could not anticipate such a period, and lie
hoped the country would not survive it. But if
that period were ever to arrive, it would be at-
tributable to the misconduct of Government in
refusing to allow the country, when opportunity
offered, to gain time to recruit her exhaust®d
energies. It was of extreme importance that the
question should be finally decided upon by the
Rouse. The case was this—that out of 51 Mil-
lions annually collected, there were only six f nil-
lions available as to any view of economy or re-
duction: They had nothing else to look to ex-
cept the Sinking-Fund, which began now to fir; -
nista but a dreary prospect of remedy. These
were the only sources from which any saKing,s
could be expected. A trifle might be saved
on the collection of the revenue perhaps ;
but it was only on the estimates that any subs-tan--
tial saving could be effected. He aagretted the
expression of an Hon. Member opposite the
other night, who had asked " what reduction
could take place, the benefit of which each indi-
vidual could •sensibl v feel ?" lie admitted the
truth of the Hon. Member's position. Bat was
this a proper declaration, that it could do no-
thing effectual for the 'distresses of the people,
and therefore did not deem it worth while to do
that,which it had power to do? But if the House
had it not in its power to make the condition of
the people better, they ought to do nothing- to
make it worse. lie would not then anticipate
the.futere deficiencies of the revenue; probably
the Chancellor of the Exchequer -had more con-
fidence in it; but from all that -the Right.Hou.
Gentleman heard anti saw around him he must
be convinced that the present state of things re-
quired every exertion on the part- of the Ilouse
to preVenf the general distress from becornins
more oppressive. Ile moved an ameaduem, -
that instead of " 81,000 men," contained in the
Resolution, " 71,000" should be substituted.
Sir 11. VIVIAN rose for the purpose of endea-
vouring to point out. to the Committee -the im-
practicability, in the present state of otirkarrisons
abroad, of reducing the proposed vote of men.
I f the Committee-referred to the Army Estimates
they would find that the-numher of men • which
it was proposed to retai.a in Great Britain and /
Ireland was 48,630. If from thoas were de-
ducted the guards and rurrisrmm.4-$l2-ev-7,1"-z-r7ttritt
then the reduction of 10,000 moved for by
the Ilonourable Uutleman, there would re-
main in this country no more than 20.'809
disposable troops. (An )lon. Member observed •
across the Table, that there would also be the
Guards.) Ile (Sir H. Vivian) did not consider
the Guards as disposable troops.—(llear, hear!)
lie would then advert to the subject of the ne-
cessary relief for our stations abroad. The Gal-
lant General here entered into several calcula-
tions to show that with so smsll a disposable force,
and considering the time which it would take-to
till up and discipline the skeleton regiments on
their return front foreign stations, our
meats after having been nine years abroad could.
be allowed to remain only about three years at
home before they must be sent abroad again.
WoUld that be fair ? It was also necessary that
we should be prepared for any sudden emergency
in order to strike an effectual blow at the enemy, •
and although he was. very ready to admit thit
the navy was the bulwark of the country, he be-
lieved that 'foreign. Powers would be ninth less •
likely to commit any aggression towards us if we •
were prepared tvith troops to-repel it. We ought
always to be prepared to maintaio the high sta-
tion which we held among the nations of Europe,
and he trusted that Englishmen would never be
altogether reduced to • what Buonaparte had in-
sultingly called them,' a nation of shopkeepers."
Ile (Sir H. Vivian) had always supported the
measures of the Noble Lord on - the Treasury
Bench, because those measures had aiwayg
appeared to. him to be calculated for the
public good. But then Noble Lord had. better
supporters in the House thau he (Sir li. V.) was. •
-He had the support of the hall. Mereber
.-kberdeen.—(llear, and a - laugh] )—Certain he
was, that if that lion. Al-ember-continued such,
proceedings as he had -commenced the otherever-
in!!:, the result would be a powerful accession of
friends to the Noble Lord.
Mr. MACDONA LD explained.
Mr. N. CALvatrr supported the Amendment.
There were three reductions of considerah!e
magnitude, which, in his opinion, might be most
advantageously made. In -the first place, he.
thought we might very beneficially divest our-
selves of Gibraltar, which cost us half a million
annually in peace, and double that amount ill
war. Gibraltar had no harbotir,, it did not (as
was frequently supposed) command the entrance
of the Mediterranean, and he was persuaded th"t
we shouid be -much better without it.. In the
•
second place, he thought we might save a very
considerable expense b_y getting rid of all con-•
nection whatever with the lonian Isles. In the
third place, he thought we might reduce half the -
household troops, and substitute an armed police
under the authority of the civil power-.---a means
of preserving public order, which London was.
the wily capital in Europe without.
'Mr. Husta expressed his dissent from the. last
.
speaker, with respect to Gibraltar and the lonian
Islands. He only desired to see the latter co,
lony forced •to maintain itself.- With reference

to. wbat fallen from the lion. and Gallant
Osicer opppsite (Sir Vivian) he. waq ready La,

admit that h s oneof the Noble Lord'B (Lord
Castlereagh) best friends ; and if the Noble
Lord could only be sensible of it, and follow
his advice, he would place him beyond the reach
of any harm.—(A laugh.)—As to what passed
the other night, there must be blame on one side
of the other; but it was plain that the lion. and
Gallant Gentleman belonged to the unreasonable
party, and he (Mr. Hume) to the reasona-
ble one.—(Laughter.)-.One of the arguments
of the Gallant Member against reducing the
present establishment down to the standard of
1787 or 1792, was that in those years we were
in a state of perfect tranquillity and peace.
He should like to know how the Gallant Ge-

neral could make out that we were not in this

state in the year 1821. He said that they ought
to be prepared to interfere in the state of Italy ;
but the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) had con-
troverted this reason by saying that this could be
no-excuse. for adding a single man to the army.
The Gallant General had stated that 17,821
men of the existing military establishment were
not useful for colonial purposes, whilst the two
Noble Lords opposite said they wanted these
troops in consequence of the addition to the co-
lonies. Let them reduce half of them, and there
would be 8000 of the ten whose reduction was
desired. The two Noble Lords opposite (Lords
Castlereagh and Palmerston) had taken great cre-
dit to themselves for the saving in the Commissa-
riat Department of 74,000/. and also of 50,0001. for
the yeomanry. The fact, however, wash that there
\s-asno saving ataliunder these heads. Z he expense
of -the Commissariat Department in 1818, was
394,0001.; in 1819 380,0001.; in 1820, 476,0001.
so that thii saving, as it was called, did not even
bring us back to the year 1818. It was the
same With the Barrack Department—the
.say.-
;ings consisted of sums laid on in 1820, and taken
off in, part in the present year. The gallant Lord
(Lord Palmerston) talked of being about to re-
duce 11 regiments, by which a
_saying of
145,0001. would accrue. Why, this eras, not the
mount of the cost' of live battalions. The rea-
son of this was, that it was the Veteran Regi-
ments that were reduced,and not Regulars ; the
~,
eterans retiring on full:pay,and the men upon a

Regulars.
rate of pension than the privates of the
Itegulars. The pay of the Officers of a Veteran
Battalion 1000 strong,• amounted in pay, allow-
ances, and clothing, to 31,.5001. • When .reduced,
there would -be for the retired pay of the Offi-
cers 7,5201. for the men at 8,1. per day, being
Fd: more than full pay formerly—there would
be 12,0001., making the whole expellee 19,5201.
The saving, therefore, upon the reduction of a
Veteran Battalion, was 12,0001. , The amount
of Pay for the Officers of a marching regiment,
'hen reduced, was 3,7391.--of the men, at. six-
Pence per day, G,3ool.—total 11,0391. being a
saving of upwards of 20,0001. Taking away
from this, the amount of the saving on a Veteran
Battalion, there would be in the reduction of 10
Regiments of Regulars -a saving of eighty thou-
sand or a hundred thousand pounds. lie -had a
right therefore to complain of want of economy in
the selection of .Regiments for reduction. The
Mon. Gentleman, in- rEferring to the state of
Nr_Colotlies.observed, that he understood there
were several • thousand native troops in Ceylon,
°l' 411 account of which he should move to-mor-
Z,v' There were several regiments of thersame
tid2tire at the Cape of Good Hope ; and in Ca-
b;4l4 there•used to be a large militia. The num-
b , or 32,000 men for the Colonies was too great
frnany thousands. He had omitted in his esti-
mls
'e of the 'internal military force thirty-eight
islrnents of Irish militia, to which were
HO less than 1000 officers. He enumerated
attach-
the numbers of the4inglish militia, the yeomanry,
11'd volunteers, andshowed that altogether we
1,141 at present a body of 207,000 Men in arms, or
114(15' to be called upon should their services be
44ting. In the present circumstances of the
, that House
he would ask, ought the Members of
nouse to support so extravagant an establish-
Theni ? Should this be continued, if ar y man after-
'ards should complain of Agricultural or other
distress, he ought not to be attended to,, and the
°,1115' answer he would .be entitled "to receive, was
1,455" You voted' for the present Military Esta-
-I'tiisbment." He commented on various parts of
the statement made by the Noble Lord opposite,
tiedargued that from his .own showing it resulted
titat at present there .were too many officers for
ste number of men to be commanded ; and on
c‘i(ssi, of the whole he -was satisfied that a re-
.
..lictlon of 20,000 men ought now to take place.
e Staff, which in 1792 cost the country 17,1211.
litsted an expence in .1802' of 194341. and
.I)°,‘‘' arPolllll.ed to :no less. than. 80,000/. as
sr4ated from the estimates on their table; This
4,4 '4l expense greatly disproportioned to the
If, :13, as well as the necessities of the country.
4)1,-1"d no hesitation in saying, that millions
111,,`'t he saved to the country. After spewing
0,7,we had a body, of 000,000 men either in arms
",
able to be called upon-in case their• services
I.:re wanting, he thought he could
.not justly be
rilarded as a visionary, or as one disposed to.
si,' the Pcsa:e of the country, when he suggested
a reduction 0'20,000 rneq might .take place.
t're this done there would be a saving in
,088,256
....•
•
tle r.r cnce.k.,
for Conamiscarlat. and Extraoraries •
exPe tiarrison din
&e. now amoanting 434,759
0, °:l4,oool,ight be redec,eit so I fa,...:lye a salvnog of - 22,900
the Military College I heft! be effected a
ntarinv 15,000
,
.-asyni.a. one of
grid on the Hal' pay there might be a saving 0f.... 100,000
This might be-accomplished by bringing forward
.Obis
now on half-pay when new commissions
were issued. He 'would she iv that since 1816.
re Duke of York had appointed 1,105. new
-`-'ornmissions, and adopting this course instead of
"ringing forward Officers en the Half-pay List,
t} t}taking the Commissions at twelve years purchase,
king
patronage of his Royal Highness the Duke of
.ork, cost the country 718,0001. In the pmsent-
distressed state of the country, he would say
again this _system ought not to be persevered in.
It had been said that if the reductions he had re-
commended were made it would distress the
Officers now on half-pay. He admitted that
•tlnsir distress at present-was-great, as.the -pittance
they received prevented them- from seeking ho-
Zurable -occupation as they .might have done
sesshere, Ile complained of. the Fore)o.n En-

listment Bill, prei•ented them from main.
tailing themselves and their families in comfort
by opposing usurpation and tyranny. Ile.had
been informed, and he believed it to be the fact,
that many Cornets who received half-pay Were now
at school. They had obtained commissions, and
were thus immediately placed on the half=pay list.
Instead of appointing young Officers in this man-
ner on all occasions,, it was his opinion, that
individuals ought to he brought forward from
the half-pay list who were willing to serve.—
Were the reduction made Which he recommended
—a reduction of '20,000 men, there would be
at once effected a saving of 1,500,000/. per ann.
lie hoped Members would not be lulled into an
idea when a reduction of 10,000 men was called
for, that merely a paltry saving was recommend.
ed, as the annual expenditure would at once be di-
minished (as he had shewn) by 750,0001. and that
with perfect safe'ty to the Country, and without

creating dissatisfaction anywhere. In what he
had saki, he begged to say, .he had not m' ant to
cast the slightest • reflection on any individual
connected with the several departments to which
•he had alluded ; he wished to speak not against
them, but against the system now acted upon.
In is opinion, no man in that House would do his
duty to his country who did. not on the present
occasion vote for the moderate reduction of
10,000 men.'
Sir H. ViviAx explained:
_ _ _

,Sir H. HanDING said, the system of the Guards
had been inquired into by the Finance Commit-
tee of 1817, and it had been reported by them
to require no alteration, as they were satisfied
that the same numbers could not be kept up at a
cheaper rate. 11e showed, that if the whole
system were re-modelled, but a small saving
could be effected. For the expense said to be
lavished on the dress of. the Guards, he had to
remark, that it was known to every military man,
that the expense of a change in their dress must
fall on the Coloiiel, and not on the country.
With respect to the ,Guards' efficiency, it had
been said they were not so available as troop's of
the line, because they were stationary in Europe.
If it were true that their services were confined
to Europe, it could only be said that they were
kept for the duties which they *ere originally
intended to perform. But during the American
war, the Guards had served in America.—
Had they
.not also served in Egypt ? For his
part, he knw of nothing that could oppose their

being- sent to Botany bay to-morrow, if their

services should be required there. lie shewed
that the Guards had been most actively engaged
during the war, and that far from being kept up

for vain parade, they had to perform much more
severe duty than ordinarily fell to the share of
coops in the line, or to those serving in garri-
The Guards had, in effect, too much duly

to perform,: they had so mild!, that when called
out on a sudden emer4ency, from being so work-
ed by the pressure of business, they had not
strength to go through the duty. As to the state-
ment that the Guards' establishment was over-
giown, it was a mistake to suppose that it had
been increased. When created 15() years ago, it
consisted as now of seven battalions. It con-
sisted of the same number of battalions in 1792.
The only increase that had taken place was, the
addition of Light Infantry, but the same
addition had been made to hegiments of the
Line. In 179'2, there were forty-seven in each
company ; now there were seventy-two ; but

the number of Officers reniaiiied the same
as at the former period, and the number of
Men had been necessarily increased to meet the
increase of duty. It had been said that the
price of labour had advanced but as from four
to five., while the pay of the troops had been
doubled. This was a misconception. ForMerly,
it was true, the soldier received very little pay,
but then his allowances for half-mountings, ar-
rears, and other things were more considerable;
and he considered it to be n advantage to the
public that these had been done away, and the

pny augmented. The question now was, whether
or not the pay was excessive. The soldier at
present received one shilling per day. From this
a deduction of sixpence was made for his rations
of bread and meat. This was an advantage
to the soldier when provisions were dear, and
a benefit to the public when they were cheap.

—Out of the remaining sixpence the soldier had
to find himself in shirts, stocks, 'shoes, pipe-
clay, stockings, &c. A very economical sol-
dier, after providing himself with these articles,
would have about twopence halfpenny or two-
pence three farthings to spend in a day on beer,
tobacco, and similar luxuries. This twopence
halfpenny, or twopence three farthings, was the
only tangible part of his income, and if a saving
of ten per cent. was made on the soldiers pay it
must be on that. He' explained and defended
the present system of reliefs. For Gibraltar,
which one lion. Member had proposed to give
up, lie, as a military man, might have prejudices
on the subject, but he was of opinion that its pos-
session was of no small importance to this coun-
try. During -the late war it had furnished sup-
plies-`to the squadron of Sir James Saumarez,
consequence of which he was enabled to pursue
the enemy's fleet which had passed on to Algiers,
and obtain considerable advantages which could

not have been obtained had not Gibraltar been
ours.

Mi. CALVERT said that at that time Malta was

not in our'possession.
Mr. GOULBURN thought he could not better
racommend him,elf to the attention of the House
than by promising not to follow the Hon:lVlem-

her through his details. lle was content to leave
the House anti the Country to decide on the
statements which had been made, and felt inclin-
ed to pass them over altogether. Ile however,
could not help remarking, that the unusual course
taken on a former night had been resorted to, in
order to afford Gentlemen who had not previously
spoken, an opportunity of expressing their senti-
mentg, while to night, with the exception of the

lion. Member for Hertford, the only .persons who
joined in the discussion were_ those who had made
speeches on the subject when it was last brought
under their consideration. lie should not_ take

qpon himself to say, whether or not the argu-
ments which hall been used on this occasion were
such as to justify the delay which had taken

place. In defending-the arrangements Made for
keeping up a suitable force for the dW.ence of
our Colonies, he laboured under considerable
difficulty, as the llonse had been told that they
ought not to take the Opinions of those who were
connected with the Colonial Department; as they
had an interest in upholding the present system,
and they were also admonished not to. repose
confidence in those whose military talents and
habits might enable them to
.speak on this sub-
jecL That which was principally objeited to
was, the force kept tip for the defence of the
Colonies in the Mediterranean, and that sta-
tioned at St. Helena. The force kept in the
Mediterranean was certainly considerably larger
than that which was maintained there in 1;792. ;
but it was to be remembered, that we had then
only Gibraltar to defend. Now we had to gar-
rison Malta, which even the. Hon. Member who
wished us to give up Gibraltar did not desire us
to abandon; and we had besides the lonian
Islands, to defend. It would be remembered,
that there were seven Islands under our protec-
tion, in one of which there Was a fortress of
considerable strength, which was to be main-
tained. In consequence of this, instead of 3,500
troops which were stationed in 1792 at Gibral-
tar, the force kept there was reduced.
Ministers were enabled to do by the arrangements
which became necessary for the other Colonies
in the Mediterranean, and a force of 7,000 men
was appropriated to the defence of the whole.
At St. Helena a considerable force had been
stationed. Without going into particulars he
shoUld generally state that the object of its being
stationed there was of the very greatest importance.
In this the House would concur, and if it should be
found that a degree Of over-caution had been used,
he did not think that much blame would fall on
Ministers. The expellee of the establishment at
Saint Helena arose from the mode of guarding the
individual who was a captive there, and from re-
luctance to put, him under ally personal re-
straint. 1 t was judged proper to allow him
every indulgence which that isle could afford, and
troops were therefore stationed in different parts
of the island. The expenee- might certainly he
reduced, if the House and the Country should be
prepared to declare that his -confinement ought
to be more rigorous. It was said that all the co-
lonies ought to be made to pay their own ex-
pences. This would be contrary to the original
contract made with them, as it had been agreed
that in consideration of their giving England the
benefit of their trade, this Country should take
upon herself the charge of their defence. If they
were allowed an unliinited trade, they would
readily engage to defend themselves. • On the
present occasion he would not enter at large
into the great question, whether or not our colo-
nial system was that which ought to be preferred
or not ; but he thought it fair to state, what the
original contract between this country and its de-
pendencies had been. It had been said that
under Holland the Cape had not only paid
its own expellees, but maintained and paid an
army of 5,000 men stationed there. To shew
that this statement was incorrect, he would
read a letter from Messrs. Schimmelpennick to
the Governor of the Cape, who was said to have
paid the army which had been mentioned. The
letter was dated June 1805, but a short period
antecedent to its being captured by the British,
and ran thus :—" Your account of the Colony to
the Government confirms our idea, namely, that
the Cape is not that El Dorado which some of
our countrymen had thought it, and that it is
not practicable to bring it to that state which.
the GoYernment supposed it might attain at the
time of your departure from Europe. If we
could contrive to raise some produce of value, we
might in time provide the Cape with an actual
credit, and -in that case the Colony might be en-
abled to bear its own expellee." If any one
proof more than another could refute what had
been advanced, he thought it was a proof like
this.

Sir R. FERGUSON remarked, that in 1795,
when the Cape fell into our possession, Genei al
Craig had appropriated to himself 30001. per
annum, till his Majesty's pleasure was known,
which sum he expected would be sufficient.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that was on the supposi-
tion that he was to receive the large fees which
the former Governors had enjoyed. When the
lion. 'Member spoke of the anxiety of the Noble
Lord, at the head of the Colpnial Department,
to extend his own patronage, it was to be regret-
ted that he had not looked at the efforts which
he had made to divest himself of patronage, in
order to expedite the public business and correct
those abuses which had previously existed. The
Honourable Gentleman could not forget that one
of the first things which he had done, on coming
into office, was to introduce a Bill into Parlia-
ment, to take from himself the power of appointing
to any situation of importance persons who did
not reside in the colony. He might also have
remembered how that Noble Lord had dealt
with the great offices that he found there ; and he
might have stated that the salary of the Governor
had been reduced three thousand five hundred
pounds, while that of the Lieut.-Governor had
been altogether abolished. Nor did this colony
afford the only instances to be adduced of con-
duct like that which he had described. In all
the colonies whore large sinecures had been found
they had been reduced, an adequate salary
given to those who performed the duty, and the
remainder thrown into the general revenue.—
The Hon. Gentleman, too, who so much compas-
sionated the situation of the Half-pay Officers,
might have known that all the considerable offi-
ces which had fallen vacant in the colonies since
that Noble Lord had been, in his present situa-
tion, had been bestowed on Half-pay Officers.
lie was bound to state thus much in order to do
justice to that Noble Lord, and to. that Adminis-
tration of which he formed a part. He defended
the Foreign Enlistment Bill, and showed that that
measure had not greatly injured the Half-pay
Officers of this country. He maintained that the
employment of black troops was beneficial, and
stated that the expence of that force was chiefly
or wholly borne by the Colony, and did not ap-
pear on the estimates. Ile defended the present
reliefs, and showed if they were more frequently

made; it was in consequence of the alteration

•
which-had taken plZ^^ 1;4 tile se: rice, tite constant
tranvoron,g of whole reghne. tsllaving been made
necd3sary in conse.qiience of the poti,er of drafting-
from- one regiment to azTotheri whiLli Was pds-
sessed in 179'2, being

j,
Mr. .T; P. GRANT did nut propOse going alto
particulars ; but looking at the force de.maitied
for the new ColonieS—loOking at •the cOntiilued
mis-goVehinent of frt.‘lainl, which made it ne,
cessary to. maintain .a greater force there than
was formerly called for ; allowing for their.,
and looking at the situation of the country, it
appeared to him that there was an excess over the
establishmka of 1792, of no. less than twenty-one
thousand 'nen. lie contended that where a force
of -:12,003 Men had been found sitilicient in 1792,
there was now employed no-less than 66,000.
Iyhat was there, he would ask, in the internal or
external state of our old Colonies ; what was:
there, either in the continuance of peace or in the
expectation of war, which required an increase-
of troops to the extent of one half more than the
numbers called for by Mr. Pitt,, in 1792 1 lle
thought he had said enough to make out a priiza
fig* case why the Estimates ought to be re-
duced; and the Honourable .Secretary was call-
ed on to chew an opposite case, and to prove
the existence of reasons why_ the fOrcti 1-10 W
proposed was necessary. He knew he should
be told that now there were arsenals, and de-
pots, and places' for the preservation
.of stores,.
and he would acknowledge that there were
some additional'establishmtmts of, this kind. But
then he had given credit in the calculathins he
had made upon the relative number of the troops
now. proposed for these services, and. those ern,
ployed in 1792, for reliefs upon thiS duty to the
amount of 4,000 men. lie thought there was no
case made out whatever, and it was the bounden
.duty of the House not •to grant the proposed
establishments. If the House, was really anxions.
that the state of the country should be preserved
entire—if it really wished the country to be in a
condition to meet any change of circumstances
which might occur, it ought to keep watch upon
the resources of the country, and see that they
were properly husbanded. And he was sure
that their Constituents had a right to• call upon
them not to leave any thing to the promises of
Ministers, but see themselves that those re-
sources were properly husbanded upon every

occasion.
Sir RONALD FERGUSSO:q having been particu-
larly alluded to by the lion. Secretary for the
Colonial Department, wished to repeat the state-
ment he had made on a former occasion, relative
to the salary of General Creig, who was Mili-
tary Governor of the Cape of Good Hope in the
year 1796.. lie said tlwn, as he would say now,
that that officer wrAle home a dispatch to Go-
vernment, saying that as no appointment had
been made as to the amount-of the salary he
was to -receive, he lad assigned unto himself,
until his Majesty's pleasure Should the knOwn,
the annual sum of 30001. Be-sides this he
received, no emolument. lie levied none of the
taxes which had been paid to the Dutch
Governor : and as he (Sir R. r.) believed, though
of this he was not sure, the 3000 x: included his pay
as a General Qllicer.„...llp_believe4 that even at
this distance of time he could bring the Gentle-.
man Who was Secretary to General Creig to
the bar of the House to proVe what he had
stated. lie certainly thought three thousand
pounds enough for the situation. And although
the.nominal salary was now ten thousand pounds„
yet, h 2 was informed, that other perquisites en-
joyed by the Governor increased the actual surn
to 20,000/. The income of a peace establishment
at the Cape ought to rhaintain the whole military
fOrce necessary -for that station. It was far from
his wish that any Unnecessary reduct!o7 in the
pay of Officers or soldiers should be made, for
by connection he was attached to the army,
though'he trusted he was still more attached to
his country. The lion. Member then made .some
allusions to Ahe state of the cavalry-, and objected
to the formation of the regiments of lancers.—
Our troops could not be converted into Poles,
and he preferred their retaining the old English
mode of fighting.

Colonel WOOD defended the .cavalry from the
reflections which had been cast upon them.—
(No, no, from the Opposition.)—He considered
that they were reflections. One Hon. Member
(Mr. Home) had said that they were only fit for
parade and show, and the Gallant General who
spoke last seemed to consider them unnecessary.
lie would call to mind the services which those
troops had rendered to the country in that. hard
foughten field which procured the peace of Eu-
rope. The Hon. Member then recounted.several
of the heroic achievements of the different ca-
valry corps at the battle of Waterloo, and stated
that Ruonaparte had declared: them, on that-oc-
casion, to be what cavalry ought to be, hut what
he had never expected to see them. With re-
spect to the relieving troops at the West Indies,
many regiments were there who had served
under the great Commander that had led
them through all the battles and victories of the
Peninsula, and they 'were obliged immediately
on returning from thence, to be sent Out to the
stations they now occupied. The Honourable
Member 'then read one of the items of the Esti-
mates which gave a pension to the widow of Col.
hilt, whom he described as having died of the
yellow fever, in consennence of taking the com-
mand of troops in the hospital at Jamaica,.when
no other officer would enter it.' lle .asked the
House, Whether,,to save such trifles as these, they
would refuse to do an act of justice in supporting
the widow of such a gallant man ?--(hear, hear!)
Sir FEttnussoN explained.
Sir R. Wrr.soN contended that the alterations
in the cavalry equipments would render them
inefficient if they should .be again called into
the field. The Cape of Good Hope could be
defended just as well by a force of 1200 infantry,
and 300 cavalry, as by the present 2400 troops
employed for that service. He believed that the
Governor's situation was worth 18,000/. a year.
Besides which, he was paid in hard money, and
that produced a considerable increase, sometimes
as much as 40 or 50 per cent. The lonian
Islands ought not to be retained, inasmuch.
as they were a source of 'expellee, and our

K• ' •• • ' „ _ .
possession' of them a cause of much jeaiousy
among the Turks. No reginientoought to reniafti
in- the West more fool- years; if they
did So the .theii•beanie indilerent to discipline;
and were congeqUently very difficult to manage.
111:e nii.ntioneci the .case of a body of troops to the
amount of` 9i rucn,c2-10 Of which recei Ved corporal
punishment inconsequence of the laxityoNiscipline
which had been produced by too ;Ong a stay in the
Island a Jamaica; But.the great question was,
what was the real necessary amoi,int of forces for
England and Ireland: And. When. he saw the
estiniates for that service to be
,18,004trien, it
did appear lb hint to be a most imposing
He thougl:t the Veteran 13attalionS better than
the troops of the line for-many purposeS at home.
And it I.(iuld be seen by the rettims, that the
Veteran. Battalions cost two-thirds less than the
regular troops of the line. A reginint of the
-Veterin Battalion cost
.6369.1. while the,
pence of a regitnent of the line WoUld be
21,566/. It had been said, that it was Abso-
lutely necessary for the amount of troops fixed
for the year to. be inserted in the Mutiny
He admitted that the practice was usual, bUt he
denied that it 'was indispensible. Supposing it
should become uece„skau•
_to raise 10,000 addi-
tional troops after-the supplies had been granted
and the Bill passed, wotild the Noble Lord say,
that. beCause they were not included in. the
amount stated in the preamble of the Bill; the
Act should not coffer those 10,000? if so, then
a Bill of fndemnity was necessary for Ministqrs,
on account of all corporal or other _punishment.
inflicted upon any of t}iose additional troops
which were raised last year. ,

Mr. Gour.nexiSi explained.—With respect to
what had fallen from the Gallant General, as to
the salary of the. Governor of the. Cape being
18,0001— he begged again to state, that it was
only 10,0001.

Sir R. WILSON asked if tlint was trot inde-
pendent of the military pay of the Governor ?

Mr. erOULBURN.—Ten thousand pounds covers
the whole salary, and pay of every kind. (Hear!)
Er.aNs supported the amendment.—Sir H.
VIVIAN explained.
, General lI.A T said that no dilninution of the
forces could be Made in Ireland, so long- as the
present code of horrid Excise Laws existed in
that Country.—(llear, hear !)
Sir F. BLAKE made a few remarks in-favour of

he amendment.--Sir It. WILSON explaipe.d.

Arr. WILIA.A.ms rose amid,t loud cries of
CC Question 7," and after proceeding for a short
time in delivering his sentiments. complained of
the noisy state of the House, which he considered
to be indecent towards lain. The lion.lleher
then expressed his determination to vote for the
amendment.

_Lord CASTLER F.AGII merely wished. to coll .thy
attention of Members to• the exact number of
troops which would be left by the .'Amendment,
if carried, for the service of ihe*ConntrY. The
amount provided by the original Resolution was
70,350 rank and file. • Then .the Amendment
proposed a reduction of 10,000, leaving 60,350.
In examinFno•t;, the returns. it would-he found that
the different regiments short of their complement
would: leave a .fUrther deficit df, 50004 thus
bringing the. amount of disposable troops to
55,300. Then. they must deduct the Service of
the old and now Colonies; which he worad,state
at 25,500, which, taken from the formeenumbeT.
left 29,8.50.• Then, further, deducting the Guards
and Cavalry 14,000, there Would remainll.s.Bso
troops for the service of Great Britain and Ire-
land, and for the relief of- the- army abroad,
amounting t 0.50,000 men. He would, put it to
the House wiwther it was possible that —sue!) a
force was equal to.the duties thus required. •
Mr. CALcittr-r-said, that the NObie LOrd hid
so palpably misstated the case, that he.was really
surprised how he (Lord Castlereagh) could stake
his character upon such a misstatement. The
propOsition before the Ilotne was for a fOrce-'of
81;000 men, and the object of his lion. Friend
Was to reduce that number by 10,00 Q, thus_leav-
ing 71,000. That was the proposition, and upon.
thatilonourable Members would have to -give
their vote.

. Lord C VSTLEREIGfi atcl, that the Honnurable
Member had suite mistaken• the ground upon
which he rose to ma 4 his triumphant reply.
—The only difference between them was a
fraction. For -when he (Lord C. stated' the
numbers of the original proposition to be:71,000,
he distinctly said rank and file, and he• was per-
fectly aware that with the Officers 'it would
amount to 81,000. He wished_ to ask the House,
in the present state of the Country,, after aore-
duction of 10,000 had already been made, how
they could be called on to reduce another 1.0,000
in the same year, and leave only 15,000 infantry
for the service of the Country and for the relief
of 50,000 men abroad. He only wished. Hon.
Members to consider whether it was possible that
the Government could be carried on with that
number of troops.
General G ASCO VNE and Mr.CALcitArr. mutual-
ly explained. -

Lord PMMERSTON, in allusion to the men ne-
cessary for reliefs, stated; that at this moment
there were
.1,900 troops on their passage home
from foreign stations, and 2;500 going This
was' a practical illustratien of the argumentS he had
laid down to prove
.the necessity of allowing men
for reliefs. Here were 5-100 actually afloat, while
he had only computed the yearly average at
3006. The non-effectives at the present time also
amounted to 3000, and recruits 2000, making
upon the whole 900 men unfit for duty. It was
said that the militia might he employed fur
many purposes of domestic service. Now Hon.

Gentlemen would see that by Law they. could
not even be ordered out in aid of the civil force.

•
They could only be called out by Procramation•
Mr. MACDO LD replied ;he contended that
the Household Troops and Czy.alrl, as well as
the Marines and Veteran E3attnlions, ought;to do
the same seririce, and thus 66,000 troops would

be unavailable :to the Country for that purpoie.

lie felt that so strong a case hail, been made fa:•.

a reduction of 10,000 men, that he should not do