The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-20 00:00:00

AIORNING, MARCH 20 184 b.

with Spain was to this effect :—ln the event of the
capture of a Spanish vessel by a British cruiser,
the slaves so captured were to be delivered
up to the country to which the capturing
cruiser belonged. This country had a vessel at the
Havannah which received the slaves generally
captured in the neighbourhood of Cuba. It
was certainly true that every individual slave
was not sent to Africa ; for it would be quite
impossible to provide the means of conveyance for
them. They were, in fact, sent to our Wrest
Indian colonies ; but they were under no com-
pulsion whatever as to the labour which
they undertook, nor were they placed in
a state of apprenticeship. There were persons
there who instructed them as to the con-
tracts into which they might enter ; but whether
they should enter into those contracts or not, was left
entirely to their own option. Now it was possible
that the mistake of the American President
had arisen from this circumstance. Our treaty
with Spain was entered into in 1835 ; and at
that time the state of apprenticeship did exist,
and the provisions of the treaty were that the captured
negro, on being sent to a British colony, should be
placed on the same footing as an apprentice. But
since 1835 the state of apprenticeship had al-
together ceased—(Hear, hear)—and the cap-
tured negro, on arriving at our West Indian
colonies, was in the condition of a free man.—
(Hear, hear.) In addition to the treaty with Spain,
there was one with Brazil and another with Portu-
gal. By the treaty with Brazil it was provided that
the captured slaves should be delivered up in the
ports of the country near which they were cap-
tured. There was a difference between the treaty
with Brazil and that with Portugal. It was the
manifest intention of the treaty with Brazil that the
captured slave should become a free man. But
Brazil insisted on keeping the captured negro in a
state of slavery, and declined to fulfil the treaty en-
tered into with this country with respect to the
future disposal of slaves. Such being the case, the
Government of this country signified to the Govern-
ment of Brazil that the slaves which were cap-
tured should not, in future, be delivered
up unless Brazil consented to place them in a state of
freedom.—(Hear, hear.) And when slaves had been
captured near Rio Janeiro by the cruisers of this
country, instead of being sent to Brazil, they were
taken to the West Indies, it being found impractica-
ble to send them back to Africa. He must again ex-
press his regret that this subject should have been
noticed in the Message of the President of the United
States.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the allega-
tion that both the subjects of the United States and
those of this country were concerned in carrying on
the slave trade, that was a subject for serious conside-
ration. He was not prepared to deny the fact.
He hoped that if the law did not reach this applica-
tion of British capital, the Legislature would be pre-
pared to apply a remedy.—(Hear, hear.)
In answer to a question by Sir D. NORREYS,
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was not the intention of Go-
vernment to propose any measure with regard to medi-
cal charities in Ireland, nor to propose any measure
with regard to the railway system iu Ireland.
THE BOARD OF TRADE—RAILWAY DE

PARTMENT.
Mr. B. DENNISON said he wished to put a question
to the Right Hon. Gentleinan the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade. He wished to know whether the rail-
way department of the Board of Trade, or some one of
its officers, had not, with a view to a favourable report,
negotiated between various companies projecting rail-
ways between London and York, for the purpose of in-
ducing them to make concessions to each other, but with-
out any invitation, or even any intimation being made to
the London and York Railway Company to take any
part in such negotiations ? Whether the Cambridge and
London and Direct Northern Company were not
invited and did not attend at the Board of
Trade in the week previous to the publication of the
Gazette of Tuesday, the 11th of March, with reference
to a condition of their being favourably reported upon?
Whether the Board of Trade had not negotiated with
the Newark and Sleaford Company, or suggested nego-
tiations, with a view to require its pledge, that in the
next year it will apply to Parliament for leave to make a
railroad from Newark to Sleaford, to join the Cambridge
and Lincoln line ? Whether such a course of proceed-
ing on the part of the Railway Department of the
Board of Trade was not, in the opir.ion of the Vice-
Presitlent, exceeding the powers recommended to be
delegated to that department by the Select Committee on
Railways, as set forth in their Fifth Report of 1844?
Sir G. CLERK said it was not surprising that the
House should express its surprise at the last question of
the Hon. Gentleman, but the answers which he would give
to the other questions would embody the answer to the
fourth. He bogged to state most distinctly, that no ne-
gotiations of any kind whatever had taken place be-
tween the Board of Trade and the promoters of the
Direct Northern and the Cambridge and Lincoln Rail-
way Company—that no facilities were given to them
to make any statements they wished to lay before
the Board of Trade that were not equally
given to his Hon. Friend and the promoters of the Lon-
don and York line. With regard to the second question,
all that had occurred was this :—On Saturday afternoon,
after the Gazette was published, some person connected
with the London and York Railway had called at the
office of the Board of Trade, and stated that a coalition
had taken place between the promoters of the Direct
Northern and the Cambridge and Lincoln line, and he
stated that a communication to that effect would be sent
to the Board of Trade on Monday morning. That com-
munication was made, but at that time the Board of
Trade had no knowledge whatever of any intention of
coalition. With regard to the third question, he begged
to state that there was no negotiation going on respect-
ing the introduction of a Bill next year for a line be-
tween Newark and Sleaford, nor had any such been ever
contemplated by the Board of Trade. The Hon. Gen-
tleman would find that the Board of Trade had not ex-
ceeded the instructions laid down for their guidance ; and
at the proper time it would be found, on a reference to
this matter, that they had acted in full accordance with
those instructions.

Lord HOWICK said that an answer had not now
been given to the most important question which had
been put to the Right Hon. Baronet. He (Lord Ilowick)
would therefore wish to know whether a coalition had

not been suggested. He wished to know whether such a
suggestion had not been thrown out by the Board of
Trade to the two railway companies?
Sir GEO. CLERK—He had intended in his answer to
the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire to
intimate his assurance that the desire for such a coali-
tion had not emanated from the Board of Trade.
Lord lIOWICK said his question was still unan-
swered. He wished to know whether the suggestion of
that coalition had not been given to the companies, be-
cause such an intimation from such an authority was
sure to be attended to.
Sir G. CLERK said that to the best of his belief no
such intimation had been given to those Companies-by
the Board of Trade.
In answer to an Hort. MEMBER,
Sir G. CLERK said that the House should have an
opportunity of seeing that the Board of Trade had acted
independently of any private interest.
Mr. ORSMAN wished to know:whether there would
be any objection that the letter written by Mr. Lefevre
to the Secretary of the Treasury, and his answers
thereto, should be laid upon the table.
Sir G. CLERK said that if the Hon. Member referred
to the Minute of the Board of Trade of the 6th of
August, which had been laid upon the table of the
House, he would find there all the information relative
to the correspondenc with the Treasury.
Mr. HORSNIAN said, that all he had asked was,
whether there was any objection to lay the letters on the
table of the House.
Sir G. CLERK said ho wonld make an inquiry on the
subject, and answer the question to-morrow.
NEW ZEALAND.
Mr. G. W. HOPE laid on the table of the House cer-
tain papers with respect to New Zealand.
Mr. C. BULLER understood that the Government
limited the papers from the Colonial-office to the period
of the present session.
Mr. G. W. HOPE said the whole correspondence was
before the House, and if any of the papers were required
ho had no objection to produce them.

expense he would get permission to do so from the
Hoard of Ordnance.—(Laughter.) In fact, there was
scarce a week passed that lie did not receive letters from
parties proposing destructive missiles of all sorts—
(Laughter)—and at various amounts, from 200,0001. down
to 50L—(Laughter.)
The motion that the house do then go into Com-
mittee on the Customs' Duties Bill was then read, upon
which

Mr. MONCKTON AIILNES understood that at the
present stage of the measure he could not bring forward
his motion on the subject of basket rods. Beint.,, a young
Member, and not well acquainted with the rules of the
House, he had thought that he might do so. He would,
however, move the alteration in the Biil itself at the
proper time.

fallen into the error of supposing that he had an interest
in sheep, or that he wanted grease for sheep. He had
never said anything which could lead to such a supposi-
tion, nor had he, in the slightest degree, advocated the
interest of the agriculturist. He depended a good deal
upon land, but, nevertheless, since the first time he had
held a seat in that House, he had always voted with the
Hon. Member on his motion for a repeal of the corn-laws.
Mr. BRAMSTON withdrew his motion.
Mr. COBI)EN, however, wished to take a division on
it. He was, however, not supported, and the motion was
withdrawn.

The item wss then agreed to.
On the item being put for the admission of raw and
tanned hides at a reduced duty, . _

Sergeant MURPHY said lie had been requested by a
number of tanners, who carried on business in Cork, to
oppose this reduction, because it would give the fo-
reigner an advantage over the British manufacturer. It
would only put one-sixteenth of a halfpenny into the
po2ket of the English tanner, while they gave the f©
reigner the difference of the whole twopence, the
proposed amount of duty to be imposed on these
articles. There were peculiar circumstances affecting the
trade of this country which rendered it advisable that
the reduction should be postponed for the present. Most
of the British manufacturers imported hides largely from
South America and the district of the River Plate ; and
owing to the present disputes between Buenos Ayres
and Monte Video, they were compelled to pay an addi
tional expense of 30 per cent. upon all articles they im-
ported. Then, again, the American tanner had an ad-
vantage of being able to get bark almost for nothing, or,
at all events, much cheaper than the British manufac-
turer; while in Belgium the tanner's labour was about half
the price what it was in England or Ireland. He should,
therefore, move that the item bo postponed.

Mr. GLADSTONE had heard a, similar statement
made i❑ 1843, when the whole question relating to the
disputes in the district of the River Plate
was fully discussed, and, he believed, satisfac-
torily settled. He thought it was advisable to
try the experiment of admitting a great number of
articles, these being simply articles of raw materials, or
materials in the tirst stage of manufacture, into this
country, free of duty, and the question now to be con-
sidered was, whether this particular article was one
which might be safely freed. Now, for his part, he
thought it was, and he would tell them why. The
positive ruin of the tanning trade was predicted when
the reduction was made in the duty in 1842. Previous
to that time the duties varied from 61 to Is. Oid., and it
was then reduced in some instances to 10d. What had
been the effect of this change ? Why, in the first year,
there were 55,0001b5. of tanned leather brought into this
country, and in the second year the 55,0001b5. had fallen
to 30.0001bs.—(clear, hear.) This proved clearly that
the foreigners could not stand their ground in the
British market. But the advantage which resulted to
this country from the reduction of 1842, was more ma-
nifestly shown in the returns of the importation of
raw hides. Since the Act of 1842, the importation of
raw hides had increased by 200,000 while the
importation of tanned leather had only increased by
30,0001b5., or about 15,000 cwts. Under these circum-
stances, he did not think there was any ground for the
motion of the Hon. and Learned Member.
Mr. AGLIONBY had also been requested by some
of his constituents to oppose this item ; but after the
address of the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork, he
should refrain from going into any lengthened state-
ment. He begged, however, to remind the Committee
and the Government that this was not an article in the
first stage of manufacture, but it was an article which
was, to all intents and purposes, considered by the Bri-
tish manufacturer in a finished state.

Sir R. PEEL was confident, from what he had gleaned
from a deputation which had come up from Liverpool to
wait upon him respecting this subject, that the British
manufacturer had an infinite advantage over the foreigner.
Indeed he examined the two qualities of leather, and this
had cleared up every doubt he might have had upon the
point.—(Hear, hear.) Since the year 1841, burdens
which pressed upon the tanner had been removed to the
extent of 100,0001., and he could not understand what
that body had to complain of. It was said they removed
the protective duties of the manufacturer, but never
touched those which bore upon agriculture. Now this
was not so, for they did not propose to do away with the
duty on bark to benefit the tanner.—(Hear, and cheers.)
The advantages the tanners had had was not less than
100,000/. He hoped the House would not think they
were exposing the home manufacturer of leather to corn.
petition, if they allowed the free importation of that
article. He was sure the tanning trade were perfectly
able to bear competition with any country.
Lord HOWICK believed that the fear of competition
was imaginary, and was surprised to hear the advocates
of free trade asking for protection upon such an article
as leather. For himself, he should always vote for the
removal of any protective duty. He believed the tan-
ners in this country were perfectly able to compete with
any country in the world. Every facility given to
mutual exchange with all nations extended commerce,
and was attended with universal good.

Dr. BOWRING could see no necessity for continuing
a protective duty on tanned leather.
Mr. MURPHY would not press the subject after what
had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government and the Noble Lord the Member for
Sunderland.

Mr. GREENE then ordered strangers to withdraw,
upon which Mr. Sergeant Murphy left the House amid
much laughter.
Sir G. GREY said if a division took place he should
certainly support the proposition of the Government.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw and the Com-
mittee divided, when there appeared—
For the remission of the duty
Against it.
Majority
The proposition of the Government for the remission
of the duty was consequently carri«l.
On our admission into the gallery, we found
Mr. GROGAN on his legs, moving that lard be omit-
ted from the list of articles upon which it was proposed
that the Customs duties should be repealed. Every Eng-
lish farmer was interested in the question; and especially
was every Irish peasant and small farmer affected by the
Government proposal. Although the duty of 2s. per
cwt. might appear small, to persons of small means the
matter was important. The loss of a protection of 2s.
per cwt. to the home producer, would be a serious one
to particular classes.
Sir G. CLERK did not think that any case had been
made out for rejecting the Government proposal. This
was au article of great importance to the manufac
turers of this country. A new application of this
article had been discovered which rendered the
alteration particularly desirable. By the exhaus-
tion of oil from lard, it would be of great utility
in many of the finer branches of machinery. Looking
at the experience of the last two years, he was convinced
that no injury would be inflicted upon any class of the
community, if the House sanctioned the proposed
change.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON supported the Government proposal.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said the people of the United
States anticipated that they would be able to make lard
one of their staple commodities. It was impossible that
the producers of this country could compete with those
of the United States, when the latter had such facilities
as they were known to have for the production of hogs.
Colonel WYNDHAM said he could not refrain from
expressing his sentiments on the question before the
House. He considered the manufacturing represents -
tives to be like jacks in the box, presenting themselves
to the disgust of the country.—(Laughter.) Although
the representative of an agricultural constituency,
he could not go with the ultra party—(Hear)—
who were constantly forcing themselves on the notice
of the community.—(llear, hear.) When the Right
Hoe. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) brought forward these
measures—and very great measures they were—and
the agricultural interest would, lie believed, profit by
them as well as every other interest in this country—
one of his ultra Friends said to him, at the conclusion
of the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, " We are all in
distress; what is there for us?" His immediate reply
was, "There's nothing for you."—(Great laugh-
ter.) " Let me tell you " (continued the Ho-
nourable Member, with almost dramatic action),
" that besides Parliament, you have at thisp time three
other houses sitting. You have the Conciliation hum-
bug in Dublin—(Laughter)—the Anti-Corn-law League
in Covent-garden Theatre, and the Proh-Pudor House
of Commons in Bond-street.--(Great laughter.) I
speak here to my constituents and to the country—l am
now in a position of self-defence—l have been driven
into it, and now the sword is drawn.—(The remainder
of the sentence was lost amidst roars of laughter.)—
Here we have this protection society, the members of
which are all noblemen and Members of Parliament.
They issue their dictates to the minor associations in the
country, and these minor associations take, I contend, a
very great liberty upon themselves with respect to us.—
(Laughter.) Ido not bait one inch of my adherence to
the agricultural interest, but I never will be one of those
ultra-gentlemen whom I have described. Let me take
an instance of an agricultural society.—(Hear, hear.)
I have received a letter from one. Now I entertain
great respect for my county and my constituents, and I
will do everything which I can for them ; but, can it be
supposed by any person who has two ideas in his head,
that a farmer—a farmer who is entirely among his
turnip-field, his sheep, and his barns, can have a com-
prehensive view of what is proper to be done for the
country ?—(Tremendous laughter.) A person writes
up to me, and says, Vote for Mr. Miles.' I reply,
' I won't vote for Mr. Miles.'—(Renewed laughter.)
Let me tell such persons that I will not vote for any
man or any measure at their dictation.—(Hear, hear.)
I have been in the House ever since 1841, sad I consider
that I have don© my duty.—(Hear, hear.) I am not
speaking to you, gentlemen—l am addressing my con-
stituents.—(Laughter.) I have done my duty—l say
honestly, conscientiously, and to the best of my ability ; and
when my constituents find fault with me, or discoverho will
a
person of greater talent—as they easily may— w
do their business better than myself, I shall be happy to
resign the representation into their hands—(Hear, hear)
—butlbe
d tic
teavteera a
tos lboyn s
the pI ho r
ote
el d a t
ons eat
Societynthii
ns loonuds e, Ni
street,
11
v
or by any agricultural society in the country.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, let us analyse that Bond-street Protection
Society.—(Hear and laughter.) There are a number of
country gentlemen in that society, several members
of Parliament, and many noblemen and men of the
highest station and rank in the country. They issue
their mandates to the minor societies.—(" Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition benches.) Here is my Lord Duke
pulling the strings behind the scenes ; and all these
little goes are got up to personate agricultural represen-
tatives.—(Great laughter.) It strikes me that these
gentlemen are something like Polyphemus, they have
but one eye in their head—they can see nothing but a
turnip field.—(hear, hear, and bursts of laughter.)
What I mean is, they can see nothing in the world but
their single interest."—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The
Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by stating that he
should support the proposal under the consideration of
the House.