The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-11 00:00:00

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Nrseention so arbitrary and extensive as that carried on
against
the Protestants. Without inquiry, without trial,
t Mere rumour, between 2;000' and :3,000--in:3,000--in point
as u
of and education the _most respectable people in the
'-'untrY—were included by name in one general proscrip-
tion,
Their property was confiscated, and themselises
(riged tQ for their lieu. I do not mean to say that
ettNet in which-that was done exists so strongly new ;
the opportunity recurred to cause its repetition, but
iu. if
entioa itanerely as what they last did when in possession
?t- PoWer. When I unite this in my own mind with that
"telnimrate spirit which. has been displayed, and the bitter-
a
":.cli seems to prevail .at the present time in that
f•:ntrY,. I think that, at the least, there is good ground
Patitiug, for deliberating, before we again put them in
P°aseasion of power without security against its abuse.
(Rear, hear.) Do we find that the spirit of the Catholic
'c,o.elig„i°4 is considered to he changed in the countries of the
wh ``auent ? In the country most near to us,. we find those
° are the grliteat supporters of civil liberty, and who ,
ire the he
means of judging the' Catholic's, watching
I.,:e°: Movements with.the.greate,t circumspection. and sus-
.,„,,"H• bees not this justify me in saying that:we must pro-
't-"" with the greatest caution in throwing open our Protes-
Conatitution to the Catholics? They say they will not
as seeuritiea because th will not'. condescend to treat
l'"'• My Lea ti it is only he other day, that a periodical
9,
14:7's called the Calltohe Journal, which was taken in by
kuociatien, having mentioned the subject of securi-
LT, Was for this, on the motion of Mr. O'Connell, exitel-
t-(Cheers.) Recently, too, at a public meeting, when
di Propoiition of atettrities was made, it was met with in- .
t °atiori and scorn. That, my Lords, is the present
ti'" arid temper which prevails throughunt.lreland. On
Pos grounds it is, my Lords, I' cannot consent any pro-
it.
mn like the present, as I do not 'conceive it will at-
t,},tn the object it has in view. I certainly cannot see how
i,eo'onosition of the Noble Marquis is likely to terminate
1 iataY beneficial results. My Lords, in what I have said
Psendeavoured to fulfil-the pledge which I originally
l's'aels Your Lordshiptr; hive endeavoured, with as much
4„Vmtnass and precision as I was able to apply to the
-elect, to state the pounds on which I felt I could not
tame ha the proposition of the Noble Marquis. I cer-
-0.0-4Y Cheersat we are in a situation of great difficulty—
, ,ad front the Opposition Benchea)a-and I must
..,,nII do not see my way out of it.—(Continued cheers)
it
saaY it without hesitation ar reserve ; but this I feel,
's ' we are not likely to diminish the difficulty by assent-
to the proposition of the Noble Marquis.---(llear,
illy Lords, the proposition; practically considered,
Fti at which I stated, au admission of the Catholics to all
cm, and a patticipation, ofthe potver of this Protestant
ugdotn. Do you believe, niy-Lordi, if this proposition in
acceded to, tranquillity will ensue? Do you believe,
teat the object of this motion will be accomplished'? Can
t"op short in our concessions? If what is now required be
),„,:44'd, can we withhold that which, in a short time, would
tufallibly demanded ? Little do thoae who think 80 kllOgl
ri4t,lhe spirit of the Roman Catholic religion. It desires
g'ug but to aggrandize itself -at the expense of other
iiZ!hes. If we now grant this, on the principle tran-
ttitlizine Ireland, all that will be necessary to extort every
g else from us, will be to say, tranquillity does not
t 4, give us Inure or it shall not exist. In 1778, when
ti
Penal Laws were repealed; nothing for some timelvas
witr4l4 of but the gratitude of Ireland, and the tranquillity
Which she was about to be blessed. sllut shortly, nay
441”, new demands were made, and political power was
for. In the year 1792, the Catholic Board, a body
L liar to the present Aasociatism, which. was sitting in
pt:4lia, constituted itself. a Catholic Parliament, for the
est,Pals e of enforcing their new demands....lf. the Roman
7alics were to soy Unit. they would be satisfied with the
t;,t_leci,sions now demanded, we should. only need to look at
history of the past to Itnow that wenaight justly enter-
t44 )t
.ofarif distrustthe. Beyond that, it is ia the very na-
'e)/ the ceri On with nsupon this subject,
i
e, 8
ntionant with the yf,lo-e cystaeter. of the Roman Ca-
. at religion, to be satisfied with nothing. short of predo-
-I'l44'4'e. But, my Lords, the Roman Catholics. of Ire-
before these concessions even are made, almost tell la
heatcrrais that they are merely.preliwitiary. (Hear, hear,
.) A Right Rev, Prehtte, .who spoke last night, re-
-‘1.(1 to the writings.a. the,Bishop of Kildare as evidence
:41 the real sentitnents,of he Catholics. if, my. Lords, I
o antlered Dr. ll,oyle. only as au . iudividual speaking. his
I'll sentiments, uttering only the dictates of his own mind,
Li:f4suld pay but little attention to .hits. But when I see
1.4: supported by every political society in Irelantl, and
tit ed up to as the guide and director of the whole Ca-
-144! body of that country, I cannot but conclude that he
resilks the sentiments of all. And what is his language,
a
Lords, on the subject of Emancipation ? He tells us
I,l,liWain language . that the- delnaufaU of the Protestant
fL reh Establishment Is at had, and distinctly announces
/1.44 t thhough concession may be Medi, it snttettmly be re-
-4:04(44_, the road to ulterior measures. And, my Lords,
LL.Q
,4144, to him, the coadjutor Bishop of Killaloe, tells
4,4'11 the only barrier to tranquillity in Ireland, the Pro-
ding Establishment, must be removed. I should only
gust your
Lordships were I to repeat even a portion of
p 4,
,mtter vituperation incessantly-poured out against. the
Chureli—ied this, not only by the Catholic
'ration, but by every Catholic meeting in the country.
ailhltadihood and malignity of that body against the Pro-
,. ,7,, Eatablishmeut past at defiance all ordinary rules of
ll'is",,,taaY; and the language now had by the Dignitaries of
aitriUsurch is in the highest degree insulting. Where for-
s4 1Y it used to be the Titular Bishop of such a place, it is
/11„14;,theProtestant Rector of such a parish, the Protestant
sioluP 'of well a diocese--(hear, hear,)—and the same
itr,..afspeeeli is adopted in speaking of the Primate of all
. Then, soy Lords, I say, grant Catholic Etnanci-
lN. 4----make these concessions if you will, as the price of
ias,illity—but do not imagine that you eau stop here. I
can agree to such a course until I can satisfy myself,
Eiit there will he no mischief done to the Protestant Este-
e
Church of Ireland in establishing the Roman Ca-
st ttChurch. For .I am convinced that must be the end
k;auceasion, and I am also convinced that the Protestant
lat:l4islatnent would succumb to the Catholic Establish-
tc,,,'to Ireland. Those, therefore, my Lords, who wish
an end put to the Protestant Church its Ireland, and
trygto sae the Catholic Church established in its stead,
c-onsistently vote for the present motion, as one step
)1444 the accomplishment of the object they have in view.
because I love the Protestant Church of Ireland—he-
t4,7 I know it has produced great and good amen.-.and be-
staje I regard it as a bulwark to the Church of Eagland,
IVO4ld not lose its support, therefore I will not grant
lis!aeasure of Emancipation, which, upon a calm and die.
iii:maate view of the question, I cannot but regard as an
tmediate step to the attainment of higher objects.
li:tefore, my Lords, I cannot agree to the. Resolution of
I% Noble Marquis. I freely admit that I cannot see soy
1,1! Oat of the difficulties of the case; but, I know that
41kastsre would' ot diminish, but would certainly in -
t* doves difficulties. (Cheers.)
IL:4 PLUNKETT was inaudible for the first two or
lk-asentencee. He then spoke as follows have been
lid,anxious, my Lords, to take the first opportunity
yt would fairly occur of declaring my unaltered con-
-1.441u upon this important subject. My Noble and
lkttned Friend behind sue (Lord Manners), who spoke
404ight, stated es the of his observations and his
itr:lY of Ireland for 2a years that Emancipation could nut
tis Y be granted. • I am satisfied, my Lords, that ever),
stated by my Noble and Learned Friend was stated
tt b the must perfect sincerity. But I beg leave to state
l'sPt/ar Lordships, that after 40 years knowledge of that
44"„1'17--in office and out of offiee—in Parliament and
,
Parliament—with every opportunity for observation
;) the condition and sentiments of all classes in it, it is
Itit„.7'el) and unalterable opinion that unless this. agitated
',e`o2't be set at rest by some conciliatory and remedial
Ot:ate, there be neither tranquillity, prosperity, or
t'hYtfol' that conntry.",,,Wilieers.)--41any one has arrived
4ki eclulusso. that, at., pp tUne, sod under cireqin-
C•Afte,e. can any thing ever be done to berseOt the Roman
flt °lies of Ireland, • that person does tight to vote against
tltif4loliOn of any Noble Friend.—(Hear, bear, hear.)—
'Nauless he do so think, lie cannot resist acceding to the
"N:ltion.—(llear, bear.)—l listened, my Lords, with
4 ;,:atteptior, to the able, temperate, and dignifies speech
(tt'"Y Noble and Leal'neo Yrientl who has just sat dOwll,
1 ter pats of it was most gratifying U.) me, beczese tholiglit
under a resistance which my Noble Friend felt it ne-
ti,:tY now to make, some latent gleam of comfort, which
!laie a secret hope that there were securities, which, if
1/444 and Learned Friend had time to look after them,
I,'"iNd the season fitting for the experiment, he would
~ittisr to 'adopt.—(q .par, hear, hear.)—But there were
Wl,i,,Parta of thespeech of My Nqble and Learned Friencl.
ails:, filled me with aurpri4; for I capafiti rtlY T.ords, at
lter s • , • •
atlN with him that the giving any step the Roman
to
tend ties towards the attainment of office-must of necessity
geln:f.the destruction of the Protestant Establishment of
short 4,ry
.Lords, .I have been from nay :earliest
'n public ata advocate of this measure ;
Illis h° help me God, if my ;ping could arrive at
'hat,„.e°uclusion, I would at once abandon the cause,
(li. !ides, and become its most determines' enemy.—
(21,1014 ear, hear.)—l regard the Protestant Established
eteano- of Ireland as unalterably settled and fixed as a
ititvoifif'i:,, part of
,the Constitution of that country at the
one of and Aspewed and understood as such at the
the ca f the Union.; and to talk of any change by which
to to„ t'°lie Church should become predominant appears
I most futile.. I am talking in too new latiguage, my

Lord& There must bean Established Church. T take it '
that if there be not an Established Church, in times like
theSe religion herself Would become 'degraded. Therefore
I think a hierarchy, with all the dignity and wealth at.
tached to it, a good thing, and proper to be maintained by
all means. For these reasons, and upon these grounds,
and net upon the theoretical grounds put forth by certain
writers, I am for the maintenance of the Established
Church inviolate. Further, I am in favour of the Pro-
testant Established Church of Ireland, because I deem it a
great kind of union between the two countries.—(Hear,
hear, Mar.)—l. think it so interwoven with the most.
public and important institutions of Ireland, that it has be-
come the foundation and security for the alliance of the two
countries ; and if the property of. that Church were to be
destroyed,' the subversion of all laws and the destruction of
all other property must follow. This is my decided opi-
nion; and therefore I .should be OA to think my Noble
and Learned Friend was mistakeniourodsth,etblaattter
4 I thought part,
jof;ghist
argument. I can only say, my t
so, I would now and for ever unalterably oppooe the con-
cession of this measure. I am glad to have this opportu-
nity of relieving niy mind; and I trust your Lordships
will excuse me if I go a little hack into history, and
briefly, very briefly, call your attention to a period which
has been so much referred to on this,queetioo....-I mean, my
Lords, 'the Revolution. The circumstances Under which
that glorious event took place are so well known to your
Lordships that I need scarcely refer to them. But, my
L0r.14, upon that occasion this Protestant country took
arms in support of civil and religions liberty against a ty-
rannic and despotic Monarch.—(Cheers.)--They took arms
for the abatOment of tyrinny, and they had an undoubted
right to tlo so. But I must remind ' your Lordships that
they would not have succeeded if they had not enlisted in
their cause the strongest motives of religious zeal. What
was the situation of their Popish Island at that period ?
That unfortunate people, to whom I should not trouble
your Lordships by referring, but for the purpose of chew-
ing.that when we come to determine their rights, and skin
judgrneut upon their conduct,• it taught not to he with
feelings of resentment, but, on-thiscontrary, with shame,
self-acusation, and remorse.---(Cheers.)--That couttry,.
my Lords, was quiet, and free froin the errors of Popery
and Romish usurpation. You ferried upon that , country,
possessing a pure system of Christianity of her own, one
fraught with Papal corruptions; and you forced her to
consider herself in the light of a vassal of the Pope. With
the blessings of peace the light of knowledge opened, and
the Reformation was commenced and accomplished here,
and appreciated ; but the other portion of the Empire was
left in a state of neglected ignorance and barbarity, with-
out any attempt at education and knowledge. Then, my
Lords, in like manner as you had forced the Papal domi-
nation upon her, so you forced the Protestant Reforma-
tion, But Ireland saw a Papal King -upon the Throne—
she adhered to her faith, and could not be prevailed upon
to take up arms against her Sovereign. Well, the Irish
took up arms in the cause of their King and their religion,
and, most itrtunately for themselves, they were subdued.
And what was then the situation of this country ? It
must be admitted that the great men who were concerned
in the Revolution had a most difficult task to perform.
It was impossible at that time that they could treat the
Roman Catholics of Ireland as good subjects. They had
been, not as regarded their King, but as regarded the
English Government, in a state of armed resistance. They
Could not, therefore, be admitted into the Legislature.
Their exclusion was at that time necessary—it was an act
of injustice as regarded them, but the necessity was so
great as to authorise the exclusion of those people from
Parliament. But I will call the attention of your Lord-
, ships to the state of the law at that time. At the period
of the Reformation the Roman Catholics had an un-.
doubted right to sit in Parliament, both in the Lords and
Commons. From the Reformation to the Act of the 2d
of William and Mary, the Irish Catholics, although they
' could not in point of law, yet did practically enjoy the pri-
-1 vilege of sitting in Parliament. There was the same en-
joyment, although not to the same degree of holding
office; for it' was not for some time that the oath of su-
premacy was considered as a barrier. This was so for the
first twelve years of Elizabeth, and it was not until at-
tempts were made by foreign priests, sent to this country
to deprive her of the. Throne and of her rights', that any
difficulties were thrown in the way on either of these
points. I have already said, my Lords, that 1 do not
doubt that those restrictions were dictated by stun neces-
sity; but what was the course pursued? The enlighteued
persons who adopted those laws, saw clearly that it was in-
consistent with reason and policy to shut up atw,class from
office, and from Parliament, and leave them in possession
of wealth and the means of knowledge. They Mt that so
surely as they did so, that class would avarturn the
Stato,_(Cheere.) Then, Joy Lords, for a period ' of
seventy years the, course pursued was, to reduce
the Roman
,Catholics to the extreme of ignorance
and poverty. They pursued their i point, until the
end was,—such as all attempts to grind down the
people must result in rebellion. (Cheers.)' Having
then accomplished what they had in view, the good sense
and gout! feeling of the English people turned with disgust
from their own work, and saw with pity that portion of.
the Empire reduced to so deplorable a condition. But, as
I said, my• Lords, the good feeling of the English people
recoiled at their own work. For although during that period
there were two rebellions in Scotland in behalf of the exiled
faini:y, and many disturbances in England, yet the Irish
submitted to the. English law, until England became sub-
dued by the patience of the people of Ireland. The con-
sequence of this change of feeling was, a change of sys-
tem. We treated the Irish as beings of flesh and blood.
We clothed, fed, and educated them, and gave them
constitutional privileges. And now, my Lords, we find
them, by our own acts, a great and powerful people.—
(Hear, hear.)-13ut I cannot help thinking, my Lords,
that there was one blunder in the Act of the year
1793. By that Act we removed all disabilities under which
the Roman Catholics laboured.----all incapacities to become
landed propriebars-o-to high office—or to the enjoyment of
the privileges of the State, with the exception of the right
of sitting in Parliament. The blunder committed here,
my. Lorde, was, to give the rightof returning Members to
sit in Parliament, and to withhold from the Aristocracy
the right to be returned. Here was a Roman Catholic
constituency with Protestant representatives. (Rear,
hear.) A state of things that never could lead to any
steady and consistent result. The consequence of this
blunder was the Union, Which was intended by a union of
the Churches, to give strength to both, and by uniting the
two countries ender one constitution to secure eqiial liber-
ties in both ; and I would say, my Lords, beware how you
depart from that intention. It is not now denied by any
one, although no pledge was given, hopes were held
out that that,,tl
atthe measure would give increased facilities for
emancipation ; and it was the adoption of those hopes by
the Roman Catholics that mainly Contributed to the suc-
cess of the measure. I was then a young man, and I felt
it my duty, to oppose the measure; I am now, I am sorry
to say, an old one; and I must now say, that under the same
circumstances I would do the same. (Hear, hear.)' But the
Imagine having been carried, it is my sincere opiefini, and
has been ever since the Union, that every thing should be
done to make it irrevocable. I opposed the measure because I
thought it would not act irnpaitielly, but as the measure of a
party ; but I have been disaPpointed, and in no case have
seen the interests of Ireland considered otherwise than with
justice, favour, and even partiality. The debt of justice to
Ireland, so far, has been nobly paid. Then, my Lords, if
we have increased the trade of that country, relieved her
wants, and advanced her prosperity, why not go ou anti
grant her present claims ? I say, my Lords, that these
claims are evidence of the benefits we have conferred on
Ireland, and of her gratitude to England.—lf any man in
the situation of the Irish Roman Catholic were to say
that although this mark of exclusion was put Oh him, and
lie had thus involuntarily become liable to political dis-
abilities, and was adjudged for ever incapable to sit ill Par-
liament, I should : , him
~
unworthy of men, if idee
Butt, nay Lords,.l" ecanii:ittneort emong the basest and roast
d I could consider him sincere.
believe hint to be sincere in
any such declaration; I should look upon him only as a
disgraceful hypocrite, pretending for his own ends to be
contented under such a state of circumstances.—(Cheers,)
.—I have heard distinctions attempted to IN drawn be-
tween civil rights and political pooser ; but I take' the
liberty of saying, . that nothing can be more at vari-
ance with the fundamental principles of the British
Constitution, than the . principle of such attempted
distinctions. Political power is the guardian of civil
rights. The claim of our Roman Catholic fellow-coun-
trymen is no new !daim—it is a claim to participation in
those inherent original privileges which belong to free-
born British subjects—rights derived from the first origin
of the British Constitution—rights not given by any spe-
cific law, but flowing from the eatabl;slnent of our oldest
institutions. Where is the law, I should he glad to know
—who will Point it out to me—which enables a Protestant
to sit in Parliament? Where is it to be found ? It is a
right indeed recognised by the law, and universally con-
ceded by our practice; but the fact of the Protestant's
eligibility to sit in Parliament rests in effect upon the
common right or eligibility of every British subject—a
right which I contend has been equally inherited by the
Roman Catholic. Like all other rights it is one liable to
he modified by the Legislature, in deference to considera-
tions of expediency or of necessity; but, I say, the enjoy-
ment of such right is the rule, and exclusion from it the
exception ; in the system of our Constitution. Every
case of exception, therefore is to be made out? not by

declamation or invective, but on specific proof. nut Con-
' stitution is not, as it seems by some meta to have been con-
sidered; a constitution theste, restraints, and securities, but
the whole frame of it zither bespeaks it to be a system of a
very different nature. Throne, Lords, and Contmons,all rest
on the same original foundation. What, I would ask, has
hitherto preierved the institutions of this country from shar-
ing the fate of those of. other states; for, let it be remem-
bered 'that other countries have poSsessed mighty institu-
tions: But of these latter, I askswhat has been the fate? Some
have been changed into oligarchies at the mere motion of
the executive—others have merged into mere Courts of
line—f-bUt ours have Subsisted,- becauSe the rights Which
were common to all Members of the State were always
coincident and co-existent with those fundamental prin-
ciples upon which those institutions were first raised.—
Whatvould be the condition of this very house, of which
I have the honotir of being a Metisber, if it did not derive
fresh accessions of strength, from time to time, by the ex-
excise of that prerogative of the Crown, which may be said
to renew the principle of your existence. But this prero-
gative would not be exercised by it if this doctrine of inhe-
rent. equal rights in the community were not recognized.
Does it becoine, then, I would ask, any Nob person who
has been raised in the course of this reign, for instance, to
the honour of a seat in this House, by being made the
object of such a prerogative—does it becOme such a one to
talk about castes, and classes, and restrictions?—(Cheers.)
With what face, my Lords, could I myself make the first
use of the distinguished privilege I enjoy; through the con-
descension of my Sovereign,lby putting my back to that door,
and shouldering away from it such a Peer as the Duke of
Norfolk?—(Loud cheers, and cries of "Hear, kear.")--
Shame, shame to their detestable ingenuity who would
turn up the four corners of our great Charter, and exclude
from it's benefits the descendants of the great men by
whom it setts acquired.—(Hear, hear, hear. )—But the
inequality of which I have spoken is not the only grieVance
Roman. Catholics have to complain of : the principle of
excineionsgoei still further, and holds that one party are to
have all the benefit of our laws, and that the other are to
be utterly excluded from it. How must injustice so mons.
strolls operate on the parties who suffei from it? Why,
my Lords, the subjects even of an absolute Government, if
they be ruled even by a mild and beneficent Monarch, may
manage to be very contented and very happy ; but I defy
any -Man to be so, who, bring otherwise qualified like all
his fellow-subjects, finds himself excluded from Parlia-
ment, and at every turn, ashamed, degraded, and in-
sulted, and the victim of suspicions that his religion is
base and idolatrous, and of a character so hostile to the
State and its interests as to make it necessary that it
should be suppressed. Every enjoyment, every acquisition,
are lost and, swallowed up in the galling and bitter insult
to which such a system exposes him. It has been made
matter almost of reproach to the Catholics that their claims
are renewed to the two Houses of Parliament at certain pe-
riodical seasons. I have always advised them, that if they
would effect their greatobject speedily, they must proceed
with discreet forbearance, and must approach not only
the ablest opinions, but even the prejudices of their oppo-
nents, without passion or disrespect. But the soundest
advice I thought I could give them, as far as I might
possess any influence over them, always' ',was tithe....-
" Never cease to pursue those rights."—(Hear, bear.j_s_
The strongest argument, perhaps, for the concession of
these rights is to be derived from the conduct of the whole
Irish community on this occasion. No matter what their
rights, no matter what their opinions, in this particular at
least, they feel bound by a common tie, in a degree, per-
haps, unexampled in any other country. Laity, clergy,
commonalty, all have combined together, in this instance,
in the representations they have made to Parliament, and
are directed in their movements in a manner equally ex-
traordinary. This direction, it is said, is lodged in the
hands of a
.few individuals, who have the power to excite
them at any moment, on this great question, to do their
bidding. Is it, then, difficult to choose, my Lords, be-
tween the two alternatives which are presented to you--of
continuing the present system of exclusion, or of extin-
guishing that power, by the concession of those rights?
Are we to hold our laws, our fives, our liberty, and our
Safety, at the discretion and good pleasure of those indivi-
duals who wield this !nighty influence? Is this a state
of things in which a kingdom should be allowed to continue ?
You complain that these demagogues have got the entire
command of the Irish people. They have it; but under
what state of things? Two or three lawyers congregate to-
gether, and devise plans and make rules for the observance of
their clients, which these latter, however extravagant they
may be, implicitly obey. And what is the cause of this,
again ? We ourselves, my Lords, who withhold' from them
rights which they will never lose sight of, .for their's must
,be a perpetual claim.. You might as well attempt to ar-
rest the current of the blood in the human body, as expect
to stop this demand except by gratifying it.—(Hear, hear.)
These demagogues, justly as their proceedings,. have been
.complained of, are but the spawn of our wrong doing hie
therto. Then comes the question—what are we to do ?
And this is the beginning, the middle, and the end of the
matter. What are we to do? Stand still, go backwards,
or go forwards? Go backwards, .my Lords ? Re-
enact our Penal Laws ? Outlaw our people 2
Excellent tyranny, if it were practicable! Shall
we make war upon our own resources—upon our
own honour—upon our own country ? But war, my
Lords, for what ? War might be successful, if you had it
here; but you would have to encounter the same difficul-
ties afterwards—a war, at the end of which you would be
a guilty spectacle of scoffing and exulting Europe.—(Hear.
It is easy to say that our institutions are the pride awl envy
of Europe ; but will the Statesman say so, who shall look
through his political glassee at the western horizon,
and there discover a blank speck preguant with all
the elements of the thunder cloud, and almost ready
to burst, not for him but on him. The Noble
and Learned Lord went on to argue, that though he would
answer with his life, that, in the event of any convulsion
affecting the United Kingdom, Ireland would be true to
her faith, her allegiance, and her honour, her adhesion to
these would not be the result of the oaths of suptemacy, or
test acts, but her gratitude for the remission of many penal
laws during the last half century, when used previously to
Alice her. He contended, that,Mr. Pitt's repeated decla-
ration, anti still more remarkable retirement from office, on
this very question, proved that that great, man's name had
been attached to principles and societies promulgated and
formed in a spirit, and for purposes essentially different
from those by which he (Mr. Pitt) was actuated on this
subject. After expressing the high personal respect he
entertained for the Noble and Learned Lord who sat near
him (the Earl of Eldon), who conferred so much honour
upou himself; the profession to which he belonged, and the
country which he had served during a long public life, he
(Lord P.) declared himself obliged to differ from him as to
the view he had taken of the obligations of the Coronation
Oath. The Noble Lord was then about to quote from the
correspondence recently published between the late Lord
Kenyon and George 111., when,
Lord KENYON rose, and notwithstanding several in-
terruptions, attempted to address the House. He finally
yielded, however, to the cries' of " Order."
Lord PLUNKETT resumed his former large.seent,
touching the Coronation Oath ; from which he inferred,
that although in many supposable eases it might be vio-
lated, and that such violation ought to be instantly resisted
(as in the case of taking away from the Protestant Church •
its endowments, and investing atiother hierarchy in pOeses-
sion of them) ; yet the adtniesion of Catholics to civil office
would constitute no such violation. The Noble and Learned
Lord went on to infer that the effect of the 13t1s of Charles
the,Secottd, the recital of the Act of Union; . and the 31st
end 3:3d of George 111., all of them Acts largely referred
to in the debates that had taken place on this question—the
same conclusion must become to; mutely, that neither upon
them, nor upon the adMinistration of the oath of supremacy
were Catholics of necessity excluded, as the practice had
excluded them from seats its Parliament, and admission to
civil office. The oath of supremacy, when taken in the
literal sense, denies not merely any authority which a foreign
power ought to have, but even any spiritual authority. But it
is not in the nature of things to deny that right and power
with respect to the spiritual concerns of a particular sect in
the king's dominions. It is an absolute denial of all power
with respect to the established religion of the country in all
Matters, temporal or spiritual, but no more. And, my
Lords, I will ask, does the King of England exereiste any
authority in the spiritual concerus of this sect, or could he
do so without the sanction of an Act of Parliament ?
Cert iinly not, according to the words and nature of that oath;
4od as long as it continues, the Pope must have that power.
I only state that, according to the words of that oath, and
to the nature of things, this must be ; but do I mesto to,
advance that this oath is uncon!rolable? on the
Contrary, I think and maintain it se most important that
this power should be placed under the controul of the State.
I think it is a danger for which a remedy ought to be pro-
titled. I think it a formidable thing that there should be
an intercourse between the Roman Catholics of Ireland and
a foreign power—an intercourse which at present may be
innocent, but far the mischievous effects of which hereafter
nobody can pretend .to answer. I say with several Noble
Lords who have this night addressed your Lordships, that
some specific measure should be introduced. I think that
the appointment of the Catholic Clergy should be 'bonded
substantially upon a domestic stomination. I agree with
Noble Lords in believing that danger may result from
the authority now exercised by the Pope in these ap-
pointmosts ;
.but the Noble Lords feel that this furnishes
, then' with a good ygument against removing the Roman

• •
•

Catholic disabilities, and they had rather have the danger
and the argument than adopt a course of proceeding which
would have the effect of doing away with both. For myself,
my Lords, I cannot conceive how any body, anxious to
guard the Protestant establishment, can refuse entertaining
this proposition, or joining hand in hand with me in carry-
ings it into effect. On the subject of additional securities,
I would say that I am strongly impressed with the eouvic-
tionthat some arrangement ought to be made with the
See of - Rome, by which, in the appointment of the Roman
Clltholic Clergy, the substantial control should be given to
the Government, andthat a competent provision ought to
he wade for the Roman Catholic Priests, in some way or
other, by the State. To the latter it is possible that diffi-
culties arising from the financial state of the country-might
be objected ; but it should he considered you would have
more expense in equipping.and sending forth one army to
restore tranquillity to Ireland, than could possibly be in-
, cormd in making the most ample provision for her Catholic
Clergy. These, my Loads, I contend, would go farther
than any other measures, to,give safety to the Protestant
establishment, and to create an undivided allegiance to a
Protestant throne. My Lords, it has been repeatedly
argued, that the Roman Catholic pays but a divided alle-
giance to the State, because he recognises the authority of
the Pope in spiritual matters, and a Right Rev. Prelate -
contends that although this acknowledgement of the spi-
ritual supremacy of the See of Rome does not interfere
with the abegiance of the subject, in foreign States, that
it does most materially in this country.—But, my Lords,
1 have never yet been able to discover what the actual
things are which do make this danger, and which create
this divisiou of allegiance. The Noble Lords who have
pursued 'this line of argument do not mention it, and I have
never yet seen it placed in an intelligible point of view. It
is true that it has been argued that the Rotnish Church
does exercise an extraordinary power with respect to mar-
riage,and I do not deny that she lets fall her spiritual censure
on parties, living in what-she considers a state of sin ; but
this act of the Church of Rome, my Lords,-is fraught. with
up legal consequences; it has neither the effect tif dissolving
ths marriage, nor of bastardising the children, and I really
think that accidental cases, in themselves insignificant,
should neither be brought forward, nor dwelt:upon a single
moment, in considering the general question. My Lords,
I will advert to one more topic ; a Right Rev. Prelate says,
that the Roman Catholics declined giving any securities,
and that this circumstance alone would decide him against
the proposition. A Noble Earl, too, has contended that he
is fully entitled to take away from my side of the question
the authority of those great names -which we are in the
habit of considering- as shedding an imperishable lustre
around it—the names of Pitt, Fox, and Grattan ; and this,
because things have since happened which would Tender
it impossible that they should support the measure. Now,
firstly; my Lords, in 1813, reasonable securities were
offered ; and secondly, notwithstanding all that had passed,
Mr. Canning, who may fairly be ranked amongst the great
men of this country, always did continue to support the
cause. But with respect to the claims of the Catholic
body, I declare that tke Right Rev. Prelate is not entitled
to say, that the Roman Catholics will not give securities.
I firmly believe, my Lords, that the great body of the Ca-
tholic population of Ireland are perfectly well disposed to
do so ; anti I wish to impress upon your Lordships, that
you are not to take your opinion of the Roman Catholics,
from what passes in their meetings, or from the conduct or
speeches of their leaders. The sentiments of the majority
of the Catholics is not expressed at these meetings. Those
who differ from the leaders have not, courage to declare
their opinions as they ought to do. But what of this, my
Lords, if r k!urities be just and right, and if we see that the
measure can be -rendered sate by securities which the Roman
Catholics have no right to refuse, we ought at mice, and
without hesitation, to pass that ,measure, in whatsoever
form it may be most pleasing to us. This, My Lords, is
the fundamental principle of legislation : and if you do
what is just and right, be as certain as you can of your own
existence, that, sooner or !atria-benefit must result from it;
anti if the Roman Catholics should then attempt to mis-
construe your motives, • and to do injustice to themselves
and to you, they will be deprived of all power of molesting
you by tke very fact of all their real grievances having been
taken away. The object of any act brought forward upon the
subject ought simply to be the public safety; and the evant,
sooner or later, would undoubtedly be public tranquillity.
And I may observe, by-the bye, that it should not be sup-
Posed, and I never can for a moment countenance the idea, that
a- measure for the relief of Roman Catholics front their dis-
ebilities would produce instant tranquillity iu Ireland.
tmy Lords, I can never oonseut to regard it as that pa-
ea fur all the ills of that country which it has been re-
presented to be, or that, without other measures, it can
groducrtireil' that benefit, which might be rationally anti-
cipated. No; undoubtedly there would still' be angry
passions brought into play in the disputes for offices and
situations; but there would not be that hectic fever prey-
ing upon the vitals, awl -eating into the very heart oflre-
land ; poisoning all the sources of her well being or im-
provement, and making tier act as a perpetual dead weight
upon this country. I will not trespass for many moments
longer 'upon your Lordships' time. I only wish to state,
that when I gave my vote in the House of Commons for
the suppression of the Catholic Association, it was under
the impression that it would not be a solitary measure for
the relief of Ireland. I thought that it would have, been
accompanied by other measures ; but other measures -have
not accompanied it, and bad I then known that they would
not, I should have felt bow unavailing it was to attempt to
suppress public discontent by a legislative enactment ; for,
My Lords, my opinion upon the subject is, that an over-
whelming grievance does exist, and mail this can be got
rid of, the expression of public dbicontent cannot be got rid
of. Close up one channel arid it will-infallibly burst out
in another—unless indeed you were,to enact laws of that
exeessive rigour which would be utterly repugnant to the
feelings and ideas of the nation, and to the mild principles
of our Constitution. The fact therefore is, my Lords, that
you cannot put down tha power of creating discontent ex-
cept by removing the grievance. '
The Earl of ELDON then rose, but from the low tone
of voice in which he spoke,and from the confusion and dis-
t urbance which prevailed below the bar, he was for some
moments inaudible. lie declared that the principle upon
which he hail always acted was—" Be just and fear not."
lie avowed that he entertained the highest respect for the
memory of a great person whom he considered entitled to
the gratitude of his country; and he said he pleaded guilty
to annually commemorating his memory in the way in
which from the first be bid been accustomed to comme-
morate it ; but he denied -having eve: made use of the op-
portunity afforded him by that custom to tell the Roman
Catholics of Ireland that it was not the intention 'of that
distinguished individual to relieve them from their disabi-
lities, for he knew himself, and he could speak with that
, perfect knowledge of the fact which his intercourse with
that great person had bestowed upon him, that it was his
(Mr. Pitt's) intention to relieve the Roman Catholies from
their disabilities, not only in Ireland but in this country, if
he :amid have done so constitutionally, and with the secu-
rities uccessary for the religious and civil establishments of
England. Having said this much, he would come to the
motion before the House, end be would venture to say that it
furnished an instance of the most extraordinary Parliamen-
tary proceeding he had ever remembered. The proposition
was to the following effect.—(Here the Noble Lord read the
, proposition introduced by the Marquis of Lansdowne, which
we have already published.) Their Lordships said what was
the question they had to decide, and lie begged of them to
permit him to put them in mind of the proceedings of the
House for the last 25 years. -They had a Constitution
which for a period of a century and a half had excluded the
Roman Catholics from seats in Parliament and front certain
high offices, and when, some years ago, a similar proposi-
tion to the present was brought before their Lordships, it
was negatived, and on these grounds, that it would hive the
'effect of unnecessarily alarming thelarotestants, and of raising
hopes and wishes in the minds of the Roman Catholics
which never might be realised--and, 25 years ago, they
thought that the proper mode, of proceeding was to in-
tiarduce some specific Measure upon which they might
deliberate, and see if it was admissable. Well, then,
what was consequence? That they afterwards had, in
various Bills, propositions which they negatived. And now,
When for a Irerititl of 28 years, the House bad resolved itself
io,to a species of Connuiatee upon this subject, and was
tidy to receive any proposition, be could not avoid saying
that it was an extraordinary proceeding to come Wore them
with a motion such as had been made by the Noble Mar-
quis on the present occasions Lie had been on several pc-
;Via,c°n ed
addressedaan
lAiislinsaon,aecrke-igmnakoenr, the
ilip whenet
til°l:"Rorteni:n Catholics, he stated that he would ha taken
by certain persons for an Almanack-writer, and thin being
tN)ioebcalesLe,orhde. had no objectionc to share the title with the
many such Acts
In the tango. queen Mary,
were passed to give the Pope a power in this countey.--
And when Queen Elizabeth succeeded to the throne all
those statutes were repealed, and one of the Acts by which
they were repealed, recited that its object was to relieve the
people of England from the hondage into which they had
Lord
Moen thrown by the Acts passed in the reign of Philip and
Mary. Any Noble Lord wilt( had the curiosity to look to
those Acts would find that they were framed to confer ad-
Vantages, ecclesiastical and temporal, upon the See of
Ronne; and more flagrant measures were not to be found
recorded upon the page of history. In the fifth year of
the reign of this Popish Queen a new Oath of Supremacy
was produced, and the Commens were required to
take this oath, together' with the Oath of Allegiance,

before they could 'be admitted to their seats. A Right
Rev. Prelate considered the lawyers to• be well-read
blockheads ; but whether ‘-‘ ; or the contrary, they
knew what was thought of the tiaa: tif .4-esnacy by Dr.
Doyle. Dr. Doyle, in his evideisce Laaine Parliament, was
asked whether, if a person in his confession to him were to
state his intention of putting in practice any treasonable
design, would he consider himself bound by that oath to
disclose to Itis Sovereign these treasonable. designs. Dr.
Doyle said, no. It was true the words of the oath re-
quired that he should communicate any treasonable de-
signs that fell within his knowledge : but that the Roman
Catholic Clergy do not reveal what is stated in confeasion.
So that he (Dr. Doyle) has established by his evidence that
they were not judges of the degree in which an oath would
he binding on a Roman Catholic by the words, for that
they had not power to site's what was enjoined upon bins
by his faith. The oath of allegiance, properly uuderstood,
comprehended the Oath of Supremacy, and a Protestant.
takes both. Hale said, time Pope has made great incur-
sions upon the Royal authority in this Kingdom. The
two oaths, in fact, were found insufficient to enable you to
get a proper knowledge of a moan's character, and the de-
claration against transubstantiation was consequently ob-
liged to be added. It was certainly true that Peers were
excluded from seats in that Mouse unless they: took the
Oaths of Supremacy and Abjuration, and unless also they
subscribed the Declaration against Transubstantiation; and
now his Noble and Learned Friend—if he would allow him
to call him so—said their Lordships must consider whether
there was not a distinction between political rights and
'odels of religion. Now, in his mind, that was not the
question ; but whether there were to be introduced into
that House all the Roman Catholic Peers, if his Majesty
should think St to call them up by writ, and whether all
the Members of the other House of Parliament might not
he Roman Catholics—the right to sit'in Parliament being
a political right. The Noble Lord had said—and in a
manner that did him great credit for his candour—that he
thought these oaths might be dispensed with ; but he (Lord
Eldon) apprehended that if the King himself-were to come
to the throne in that House before he had gone to Wert-
minster Abbey to be crowned, it would be the duty of their •
Lordships to tell him, that if be did not take those oaths
which the Act of Parliament required him to take, lie
could do no act as the King of these realms. Such was
the state of the law as applied to, the King himself, and
thus matters went on, as he had before stated, from the
time of Charles 11. to the Revolution ; and then those
Acts were made, with some alterations, calling upon his
Majesty to take that Coronation Oath, and do those acts
which time other Statutes of King William required him to
do, and one of which was to take the Coronation Oath.
A Noble and Learned Lord had said last night, that lie
could find nothing in that oath applicable to the subject
before their Lordships ; but he (Lord Eldon) hoped he
should never see a King upon the throne of this
country who had not taken that oath, and who should
nut teel himself bound by its obligations.—(The
Noble Lord here referred to the letter of Lord Kenyon
to his late Majesty, stating his opinion of the binding
nature of the Coronation Oath, and advising him to
refuse his assent, even though an Act of Parliament
for granting to the Catholics political power should
have been passed through both Houses of the Legis-
lature.)—By that opinion he (Lord Eldon) would abide,
and if his Majesty should conscientiously feel that, as the
head of this Protestant kingdom (and he was, by Act of
Parliament, authorised to call it a Protestant kingdom) he
could not, consistently with the oaths he had taken, give
his assent to such a measure, notwithstanding that he had
been so advised by the other House of Parliament, his
Majesty would be perfectly justified in giving his dis.
sent to St. Their Lordships were aware that in the reign
of King William, the Coronation Oath was prescribed by
Act of Parliament to be taken by the King of this country,
which bound him not to subvert the Protestant religion.
The Act of Settlement required his Majesty to be in com-
munion with the Church of England. That Act required
also that the King should not marry a Roman Catholic.
These Acts meant, therefore, that we should have upon the
Throne a King who must be one who was in communion
, with the Church; and upon the Throne also a King who
should take the Oaths of Supremacy and Abjuration,
and make the Declaration agains* Transubstatiation.—
From that' reign up to th" present time the Consti-
tution appears to be a Protestant Constitution ; the
King, the Parliament, and all the Great Officers of the
country were Protestant. He should now wish to call their
attention to the Act ot Union with Scotland. That Act
proceeded on the notion that the Legislature of this commory
was' so composed; and with respect to Scotland_ it
was confirmed by that Aet-..-end -thus a -ProVaitioit Con-
stitution became part of the union of the two kingdoms.
In the course of the debate. a great deal had been said re-
specting securities, and the resolution before their 'Lordships
held out the idea that they should enter upon a considera-
tion of the subject with such a view. But during the whole
of the tWo:nights' debate, no seec;h6 securities had been pro-
posed. It might have been thought by some that to give
the King a veto in the nomination of the Irish Bishops, or
the snaking of them a matter of domestic nomination, or, in
short, one or all of those propositions of which we had go
often heard, would have been put forward, and that their
Lordships would not have been called on to consent to a
proposition so general as that under discussion. It was
competent to the Legislature to-guard the Church as effec-
‘tvuoaulllydaak,
as it
twheasrenfoorwe, gntotabrideeLd,oordrs,evweinta mote othey
i strongly.eineantshould
il
be done to insure that protection—of what nature were the
securities they contemplated ? None of any kind had been
ever suggested-.---a circumstance which fully justified him and
their Lordships in refusing their consent to the motion of the
Noble Marquis.

[At the moment the Earl of Eldon concluded, a Noble
Peer, Lord Feversham, as we understoed, fainted, a cir-
cumstance which occasioned considerable confusion in the
'douse, and rendered the opening sentence of the Marquis
of Wellesley inaudible.)
The Marquis WELLESLEY—I rise, my Lords, to ex-
press my entire concurrence in the resolution before your
Lordships ; and I found that concurrence upon a convic-
tion that the effect of the laws (to repeal which is its re-
mote object) is, instead of tending to the security of either
the 'Church or State, greatly to endanger both. It has
been my lot for many years to watch closely the state and
the effect of those laws, and I have no hesitation in 4e-
daring to you, that the result has been to impress upon
me the conviction I have just now expressed, with a de-
gree of strength which it is impossible for me to describe
to you: (The Noble Marquis here referred, as we under-
stood, for an interruption below the bar prevented our
hearing it distinctly, to his Lordship's Government of Ire-
land.) In diachargingthat duty, I have had—and I ac-
knowledge with gratitude, which I expressed at that time—
the support of individuals of rank, of power, and of in-
fluence, in Ireland. But all that I could do, even with the
assistance of those persons—supported also, I humbly per-
suaded myself, with the favourable opinion of my Sovereign,
and by the co-operation of those distinguished individuals
who held high offices in the Government of the country—
I felt my desire and my capability tube of service, marred
and rendered unproductive by the dreadful influence of
those laws, balefully operating, as they did, upon the best
interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.)-1 therefore give
my vote with sincere pleasure for the examination of those
laws. The Resolution before your Lordships hinds you not
to any particular course, after a due consideration of those
laws, nor to the adoption of any measures founded upon
that investigation. It goes merely to declare—
" That it is expedient to consider the Laws affecting
his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain
and Ireland, with a view to such a final and conciliatory
adjustment as may be conducive to the peace nod strength
of the United Kingdom—to the stabilityof the Protestant
Establishment—and to the general satisfaction and concord
of all classes of his Majesty's subjects."
Now, J have to inquire of any person acquainted with
Ireland, is the state of the law respecting the Rnnaau Ca-
tholics there any thing likely to.alicighteodocti4-ale—gueive to the
etteersatlatabiltiit?
spfeatchejeaptirdostetsretanngttlEi
,otfubtil:seinUnentlitte:i
faction and concord of all his Majesty's subjectsr
(Hear.) We have had, in the course of this diacuasion,
the declared opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord on
the Woolsack, that the consideration of this subject is in-
volved in great difficulty.—(Hcak, hear.) But still he
affords us no hope that those difficulties shall be removed,
and a remedy for 117,e evil applied.—(Hear, hear.) Did
the Noble Lot,al point out any mode—did he hold forth the
least expectation, that we should in any way escape from
those difficulties?—(Continued cheering.) No ; the Noble
Lord did none of those things. The difficulties, however,
lie in a code of laws which, as I have already said, instead
of operating as securities to Church and State, are, in my
opinion, dangerous to. both. Your security is now your
positive danger
danger.
your
security
aret
operationil
e sourcesof th those
laws
now existing—not urgent and imminent, but pressing
and immediate.—(Cheers.) Are we not, then, my
Lords, to go into the consideration of such a code
great which
constituted
of laws? The,cousideration of it is our positive duty.—
What is then to happen if we neglect that duty ? 'Would
it not be, in addition, a pertinacious neglect of the recom-
mendation of the House of Commons ?—(Hear.) Let the
result be what it may on this occasion, however, I shall de-
rive consolation from the tone and temper in which this
discussion has been carried on ; and particularly lay the
conduct respecting it of one of whom I have the honour of
being the relative, and who now sits opposite to me; Who

has, with the moat candid and manly spirit, declared that
he would be favourable to the revision of the laws new un-
der.your Lordships' consideration, provided he could be is;
sured aSecurity the Church and State.:—(Cheers.) That
avowal, 'and the positive admission of the Noble and Lear-
ned Lord that the subject is surrounded with difficulties
and dangers, forms, in my mind, irresistible grounds for
inquiry. My Noble Relative would require securities. I'
concur'with him in requiring the,. ; and, in my judgment
ti►ey should be such as would not only give security to the
Church and the State, but be generally satisfactory to the
whole body of his Majesty's subjects.—(Hear, bear.) A:
Noble and Learned Lord (the Earl of Eldou as we under-
stood) has expressed alarm, lest the concession s sought by
our Catholic fellow-subjects should be productive of danger
to the State. God forbid that I should have the presumption
to ascribe that feeling of alarm►, and the general objection
of my Noble and Learned Friend (if be will allow me to
call him so) to the Resolution before your Lordships,
to prejudice. No ; my Noble and Learned Friend has no
doubt founded his hostility upon a due consideration of the
Co►►stitution of this country—upon which he possesses' •
more learning upon that particular tlass of history, and on ,
that part of our laws relating to the question before your'
Lordships, than perhaps any man in or out of this House.
Therefore, it is impossible to attribute prejudice to him;
and on that account I shall never give my consent to any'
arrangement that is net founded upon Such securities as
are calculated to give satisfaction to his Majesty, and to all
his Protestant subjects.—(Hear, hear.)—l repeat my opi- ,
nion, that the existence of thes'e hates is f►aughf with posi-,
tive danger, and that the. repeal of them wanid be of posi-
tive advantage to the empire. We are not, fortunately,
driven to the alternative of treating the Roman Catluidies
as a separate nation. They form a portion of the subjects
of the empire. lam of opinion that arrangenients are
equally necessary to settle this question—to meet the ap-
prehensions of the Protestasts, as well as the desires of the
Catholics. Such an arrangement would not only set at
rest that question which has so long divided the population
of Ireland, in particular; but it would also have the effect
of amalgamating the Catholics with their other fdlow-
subjects, and thus give stability to the whole of the arrange.
ments.—(clear, hear.)—l felt it my duty, my Lords, to-
state my feelings and my conviction upon this important
subject, and (us I trust you will have perceived) have been -
particularly anxious to compress that statement as much as
possible.—(The Noble Marquis sat. down amid loud and
continued cheering.) _ • _

The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, I rise tinder
extreme difficulty to address your Lordships on this most
important subject. I feel particular concern in being tinder
the necessity of following my Noble Relative, and of
stating that I differ in opinion from him whom I so dearly
love--:-him for whose opinions I entertain so much respeet.
1 cannot, however, prevail upon myself to declare my own
conviction, hoping that the views of my Noble Relative and
my own do not differ in reality,—(llear, hear.) I wish,
as much as my Noble Relative does, that this question
should be brought to an amicable conclusion.—(Loud
cheering.) But Ido not see in the' measure propose.' to
your Lordshipe the means of bringing it to snob a Cowan-
sion.(Cries of hear, hear, hear.) I must see clearly and
distinctly security to the State before I can give any hope
on this question. My Noble Relative says that our .ectirity
%vat be found in the removal of the securities which now
exist. I say that the securities we now enjoy, and which
for a length of time we have enjoyed, are indispensihle
the security of the Church and State. I should bag Lid to
see the disabilities of the Roman Catholics removed ; but
'before I can consent to their removal, I must see some-
thing in their stead which will effectually protect our insti-
tutions.—(Cheers.)—l feel exceedingly happy at the-good
temper and Moderation in which this debate has been con-
dusted ; and your Lordships may rely upon it I shall say
nothing calenlated to disturb that desirable feeling ; •but
it is impossible for me to avoid referring to some observa-
tions of Noble Lords who have preceded me in this discus-
sion. The Noble Marquis who introduced the Resolution
now before•your Lordship, took occasion to refer to some
expressions of mine uttered in a former debate respecting-
the state of 'lreland at, of course, a previous period, and
with particular reference to the claims set up for tit'
restoration of confiscated property. When I alluded to
those transactions I expressed my apprehensions that con- •
cession Might lead to similar events. I believe, however,
that I stated then, as Ido now, that I wait, as all
now, extreinely inlioui that something aught be found— -
some mode diScovered—by which this unfortunate state of
things might be remedied; but I never said otherwise than'
in expressing nay wish that-it might be hrmight to an anti-
cable conclusion. My Lords, my own opinion is, that we
haVe never objected to the Roman Catholics on the ground
that they believe in transubstantiation, or in purgatory, or
in any other of those peculiar doctrines by which they are
distinguished-L-doctrines with which a most Rev. Prelate
conceived it • his duty to find ,fault. But,. my Lords, ate,
objected to their opinions, because upon those opiiigns was.
founded a system of political conduct. lam now 'to eon- #,;-
skier this question, in which the Noble Marquis has put it,
as one of expediency, and I agree with a Noble and
Learned-Lord in thinking that we are bound to respect
civil power and political right ; but I ant sure the Noble
and Learned Lord will agree with me when I say.'
that if it be expedient that this question should be granters,
that civil power •and that political right ought art
to be exercised. The question then resolves itself into one
of expediency; and I ground my opposition to it, not on tin>
Peculiar doctrinal points of the Roman Catholic faith, but
because of the nature of Roman Catholic Church Govern-
ment. lam sure Ido not wish to say any thing that will
be deemed invidious, or that will tend to hurt the feelings,
of any man, but when we recollect, the transactions that
have taken place in Ireland during, the, last twenty-five
years, and see how the Roman Catholic Church has berm
acting theie, in a spirit of combination,in a spirit by, which
the laity has been governed—it is this, my Lords, I confi-
dently affirm, that is the cause of the present disturbed
state of things in Ireland. The Nob!, Marquis (Lans-
downe) talked of the power of the people, and of a power-
less aristocracy in the country to which he referred—of a
people, guided and governed by demagogues, and by the,
priesthood ; but, my Lords, that is the consequence, not of
the state of
:the, law, but of that combination to which I
have alluded. Then, my Lords, I say, that if you grant
this Catholic L'utancipation—if you give all that
,the
Roman Catholics require—what security have you that-
this combination will not still exist ? My Lords, we are
told that there are securities, and 1 admit, from the first moo-
went that this question was launched in this country, frond
the passing of the Union down to the present day, all-those
who have ever moved this question, have stated that securi-
ties there must be. The Right lion. Gentleman to whom
the Noble Lord had alluded, stated in that very letter to.
which the Noble Lord referred, and stated most explieitia-
in Parliament, that there must be securities.
,But that-
Right Hon. Gentleman never, in the Cabinet at feast, as far
as I have been able to learn, set forth what those seiatrities
were. 1 have repeatedly conversed with those that were
intimately acquainted with the Right lion. Gentleman, and
with some who were connected with him inroffice at the
period to which I advert, but I have never heard, not could
I ever learn, in what those securities consisted. A Noble
awl Learned Lord (Plunkett) has given a detailed history
of such securities us have been proposed' for consideration,
hut be has told us, in fact, and I am sure he will not deny it, "'
that the Roman Catholics themselves have objected to all
such proposed securities. The Noble and Learned Lord says,
that we ought to hear and attend to this subject. All
Noble and Learned Lords are aware of that, but bow
are they-L.how is Parliament—how are the people of Eng-
landgsi on tile subject. Wef?el
to do so? Whatever Noble and Learned Lords may
know, we must believe that
Lords,it is not extraordioary
of Chltrch and State, and
provisions for the security of the Church and State, such as
are acknowledged to be necessary,filin
whichaise ilti,elisesedet,;atitittee ,n
Int haattx,
Catholics, whose conduct they are intended to regulate.
Under thesecircumstances, my
deeply
tplwy e
interestedtOuld have
ior strong feelings
safety
we feel therefore that we ought to be staciently assured that
no danger exists before we incur any risk, 'Now,'Hiy
Lids, I cannot but Observe ott what fell from the Noble
Lord spposite at the comenencetnent of the debate last night
with reference to the examples that he then set up, when
contending that the Roman Catholic religion in its naturat
state was not a religion unfavourable to the Covene cionungtorviesernoitn.
gEntrionpier,
e,fgealyloinugr Lordship to oh,
nantor.
b
in the aid of Oa
Phis if
ear,vva
Pore
I, yteet
oh
nacta
siluinidetsittar:ylot.itheitte;
necessity
tly
the Severe npr
subjects. The-
Roman Catholic subjects of Europe have thin been gained
over by au instrument issued in some way or other by the
the subjects,
ofEul oofre a, n ybeore particularthey
Pope, and such instrument as afforded sufficient knowledge
of the intercourse that existed bettveen the Pope and
of the complete allegiance of their Catholic subjects,
have been compelled to procure concordats or bulls
couldStte. obtain possession
Pio
testan
Protestant
from the Pope, by the power of which they received
the aid of the Roman Catholic Church, and obtained in-
fluence over their Roman Catholic subjects. 13iit, my Lords,
I must say, that we should look with great jealousy to
such an arrangement with respect to Ireland; for the
fact is, that until such concordat was granted, the Sove-
reign found himself unable to govern his own subjects.—
Such was the case with respect to the etupire of Russia,
the Roman Catholic subjects of which could only be eo-
verned by proem ing a concordat from the Pope. The
Envror of Russia, therefore, notwitLst luting his power,
was obliged to call on the Pope to assist hint to govern his

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Majority against the Resolution .......... 44
'lheir Lordships then arlinuriied,' at 'f W, p'Clock.

ROUSE OF CO-AMNIONS, JUNE 10.

own subjects. Let us not be told, then, that we are unne-
cessarily apprehensive of the safety of our State, when the
same apprehensions exist in every country, and means of
protection have been resorted to against them. I, as well as
many others, have recently met an injurious publication, that
of Mr. Gaily Knight, frequently alluded to in 'the debate's
on this question within the last few weeks. And I con-
fess it has perfectly astonished me that any gentleman
should gravely propose that we should follow th example
of other countries, considering all the circumstances that
have taken place in those countries, or have long existed
there. There are several points with reference to our
country, which it is most material to consider. One of
these is, that our Church forms a main portion of our
Constitution. Another is, that our Sovereign is the head
of that Church, and that we are bound to him by an oath
of supremacy, an oath not only to acknoWledge his supre=
macy, but to deny and abjure the existence of any other
Power. to have jurisdiction within these realms. 3ly
Lords, I wish the House would examine. the details of
some of those concordats, and see haw far they agree with
the circumstances under which this country, is placed. I
am induced to allude to this portion of the subject more
particularly because of the observations of my Noble rela-
tive. I have now within my view the concordat, or I
say, the arrangement entered into by his Majesty the King
of Hanover with the Pope, in respect to his Hanoverian
subjeAsivhich arrangement amounts to nothing more nor
less than a Brill front his Holiness. By this arrangeinent
the kingdom'of Hanover is divided into two dioceses, that
on the right, and that on the left of the Weser, by which
the Pope conveys the Bishops and all their jurisdictions
and authority, and every jurisdiction and authority by pos-
sibility, belonging to a bishop, freely to the King of Ha-
nover fur ever. And his Majesty .on his part engages to
pay to those Bishops certain salaries to provide land for,
their, subsistence, and to defray all the expence of their
several establishments, with the exception only of the
,girochial clergy. Now there can be no doubt that
,rsids arrangement is nothing more nor less than the
Aitablisbruent of the Roman Catholic religion in the
kingdom. of Hanover, Such has also been the case
itytke kingdoin of the Netherlands, which has been placed
under similar arrangements. Now, my Lords, what I
Wish the House to refer to_ is thia ; that, it is impossible for
ui,' do • What we, may, to wake any, such arrangements.
I -wilt.,nof ally that Other arrangements may not be entered
irktO—lskill not say that it is impossible for his, Majesty so
to'regulate ttio-
Appointment- of the Bishops that' he may
possess a power controlling their influence, and of pre-
' ventiag any slasigersilm intercourse. between those Bishops
and the See of Rome----Gat! contend, that-by enabling the
Pope to.appoiut the IlishOps toile various dioceses of Ire-
land, that effect is rendered
,impossible. 4 and that effect no
Parliament and no- Ministry can; under existing circum-
starrees, produce, My Lords, I call your Lordships' at-
lention to that particular part ,of, the, subject, because
see that such a result is,at the present moment impossible.
What are we to, do then ? Whatever we do must be done
by legislation, although legislation has not been hitherto
tried ; but whatever we do must be done firmly 'and
fearlessly. We must carry our legislation to. whatever
extent we may consider proper.. My Lords, . as' I . have
before said, I was anxious to avoid addressing your Lordships
at all on this subject. I have now delivered my opinion
upon it, and 'I am anxious again to impress upon four
tortialike, bow desirable it is flat diseussions upon this
qtiestion, introduced in this way, which can lead to no
practical result, and can only disturb the public mind,
without leading to any conclusion, should be discontinued.
will.now refer your Lordships to the fact, that in Ireland,
vrevinus to the enactment of that 14w which. forms the
Asti, of this question, from the year 1781 to the year
7191, a period of ten yeast, daring which there were
many art 4 great troubles in Ireland, the Roman Catholic
Question IC I@ never heard of. So little was it beard of,
that when a\ Noble Frieud that now sits near me on the
Woolsack brought A Bill into, the House of Commons
with reference to the Roman Catholics 'of England, it is
positively a fact, that tlseJaerd Lieutenant of Ireland was
nut only not consulted on the 4subject, but does 'not seem
to have heard of it until it had been actually introduced—
, so little Was the subject .then diagnosed or thought upon
• J 7. Ireland. If, then, the public miryd is suffered to rest
fiof a short time—if the agitators of Ireland will leave
the
..puttlic mind for a time quiet With respect to this
otention—men's minds would then become more satisfied
upon it, antitheft it would be possibte to do something.
Lord REDESDALE rose to explain relstive to the Bill,
with respect to the Roman Catholics in England, as we
understood, alluded to by the Noble Dille, but the,purport
of his observations were not understood below the bar.
He said he telt assured that to leave men's minds quiet
<t this question would be the beat mode of preventing
those troubles that were alluded to regardi.wg Ireland. On
the Learned Lord's sitting down, the cries of question be-
came loud and general, and
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose, and obaervest
that the debate +s-.-Itich had now taken place upon this ques.
tiara w'ss one of a most auspicious character, because of
the schniasions from nil quarters that legislation upon this
subject there must be. That auspicious .character he
gleaned from the suggestion* oe the enemies of the ques-
tion, he did not Mean the term disrespectfully, no less
than from the deebrations of its friend's, - Ile collected it
even from the cautio"..:s and hesitating remarks of the Right"
Reverend Lords on the Bench opposite ; but h. collected it
most of all front the statement of the Noble and Learned
Lord on the woolsack—an authority most high, and most
high in his Majesty's Cotincilsthet•we were. in a sittia.
lien full of difficulty—a situation out of which he saw no
way of evcspine. This statement had been corroborated by
time Noble Duke, but the Noble Duke, Candid as he was in
ail other respects, had forborne to tell the House the ad-
Vantaget that could result from delay, in removing those
difficulties, Which it was acknowledged on all hands now
existed. He could not 4.wlieve that such an admission
could have been made -by indivittuata so high in the confi-
dence of their Sovereign, and yet thoseittdividuals even not
considering some plan for the final extiophiors of such dif-
. ficolties; gleaned. o much from their votes,,ssrlsiel,t they
-jusiiised themselves in giving, for when the How as
calledynpou td consider how it would extricate the eoors•
try kw those diffieulties whl.th it was freely admitted-did
exist, if the Members of the Government- negatived such a
proposition without any intention O. eansider it in any
other way, they would ' be " unworthy the. Fonfidence
,either of their King or of their country, 'pt those
difficulties did then orbit, how were they to 1;4
estrihounted? Not by the House, because'- the
,House refused to tale them into consideration—not,
suiety, by the prescribed Catholics, pr.the still more pre-
scribed Catholic Association. 14 tiler), the House were
not to do it, it was for the Government to'propose some
plan by which it could be effected. He hoped, then, and
believed, that some plan would be proposed-round which
the Catholics and the Protestants might equally rally. The
Noble Duke had 'alluded to the influence of the Irish
'Priesthood, but it' was in truth the state of the law that
had driven the laity orthitt country into the hands of the
,clergy. ht was that which had proctaimei the" booths,
and had sanctified the- Union. When he was troll that
• a large proportion of the difficulties arose out of the
conduct* of the Catholic body, Ike would lay to remind
their Lordships that they were not legislating between
two hndies—for he could never be 'content to treat the
Catholics as an independent body—but fok a party who
were hound to 'submit to that which was decreed. What-
ever laws might lie passed, if they were good for one hotly,
they must be good list Meth—they mutt be equally appli,
eghle to Protestant and Catib.olic. He was persuaded that
svatdel jjissolve the charm, and
suit a course of policy
,rentady the disease. ite felt Itinisckl ,t:alled upon to press
this question to a division.
•9
The House then divided, when there aj jie, 44 ,
Non Contents—Present ............... 12. N
kroxia.: ....... 58---18 •
Contents Pment..
Proxies:,

A per6on from the Bank presented an account of the i
number of a)vereigos issued by the Bank of England.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY brought in a Bill to lega-
lise are *ale of game. The Bin was read a first time, and
()Likud to he read a second time to-morrow.
• Mr. HURST presented.a petition from Horsham for'
~
the abolition of aavery in the We!it
Loid STANLEY presentol a petition irorii the Woollen
Manufacturers of Bury against ,any further duty on Ow
importation of Foreign WOOL
Mr. WHITMORE presented a petitim
‘freark Bridge-
north, against the Alehouses Licensing Bill.
Tice LORD ADVOCATE presented a-petition from
Lord Erskine, against the Scotch Entails'
Mr. BROWNLOW presented a petition from Armagh,
complaining of the great distress of the unemployed pop'_
lotion of Ireland.
'Sir JOHN COTTRELL presented a petition from Ross,
in Herefordshire, against the suppression of the small note
circulation.
Mr. DENISON presented a petition from Peckham,
complaining of the hurtbens of their Parochial Asessments.
Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that on Tuesday, the

'a. •

24th, be would submit a motion for an inquiry into Plu-
ralities, Tithes, and Church Livings in Ireland.
TITHE COMMUTATION BILL.

The Order of the Day being read for the House to re- I
solve itself into a Committee on the Tithe Commutation
Bill, it was ordered that the House should resolve itself into
the. aid Committee this ilty threp months.
Mr. ASTELL moved for leave to bring.in a Bill to regu-
late the distribution of prize money amongst soldiers• be-
longing to the East India Company. • Leave was given.,
Mr. MARSHAL presented a petition from Wakefield
fur the abolition of Negro slavery, and the reduction of the
duty on East India Sugar. The Hon. Member presepted
similar petitions from Burlington and Wicktry.