The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-05 00:00:00

PARLIAIIIENTAity DIVISIONS.

(Front the Votes and Proceedings of the house of Comment.)
THURSDAY, JULY 3.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.

Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed,
" That Mr. •Speaker do now leave the Chair :"—Amendment pro-
posed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question,
in order to add the words, " this House will upon this day three
months resolve itself into the said Committee," instead thereof:--
Question put, •• That the words proposed to be left out stand part
01 the Question." The House divided :

MAJORITY-AYES, 76.
Acton, Colonel Fremantle, Sir T. Nichol], John
Arbuthnott,-•II. Gaskell, J. M. O'Brien, A. S.
Arkwright, George Gladstone, W. E. Oswald, Alexander
Ilaillie, Colonel Gordon, Captain Peel, Sir It.
Heinle, H. J. Gore, Montague • 'Peel, Jonathan
Baird, W'lliam Goulburn, H. Pringle. Alexander
Balfour, J. M. Graham, Sir J. - Pusey, Philip
Barkly, Henry Greenall, Peter Roebuck, J. A.
itentinek, Lord G. Greene, Thomas Scott, Frances
Boldero, 11. G. Hampden, Henn Scrope, 0. P.
Borthwick, Peter Harcourt, G. G. Sheridan, R. It.
Bowles, Admiral Hawes, B. Smith, T. It. C.
Cardwell, Edward Herbert, Sidney Smollett, Alexander
Chapman, Aaron Hope, Sir John Stuart, Lord J.
Clerk, Sir G. Hope, Charles Stuart, Henry
Cockburn, Sir G. 'lope, G. W. Sutton, H. M.
Colebrooke. Sir T. Howard, E. G. Trench, Sir F. W.
Compton, 11. C. Hutt, William Vernon, G. 11.
Coote, Sir C. H. Johnstone, Hope Vivian, J. Ennis
Corry, henry Kemble, Henry Wakley, Thomas
Craig, W. G. Lennox, Lord A. 'Wawn, J. T.
Cripps, William Lincoln, Earl Wemyss, Captain
Darby, George Loch, James
Duncan, Viscount Lockhart, William TELLERS.
1 mndas, ')avid Mackenzie, T. Baring, Henry
Einlyn, Viscount 3PSeill, Duncan Mackenzie, W. F
Fitzroy, Henry Mastennan, John

MINORITY-NOES, 33.

Baine, Walter
Isannerman, A

Ellice, Edward
Ellis, IVynn

Morrison, James
Uawdon, Col.
__

Barnard, E. G. Escott, Biekham- Itedington, 'l'. N.
Bellew, It. M. Esinonds, Sir T. Sheil, R. L.

Bouverie, E. P. Evart, William Somerville, Sir W.
Browne, W. Ferguson, Colonel Stewart, P. M.
Cobden, Richard Ferguson, Sir It. Walker,,ltichard
Collett, John Forster, Matthew Yorke," Henry R.
Dalrymple, Captain Itastie, Archibald

. . _
Dennistoun, J. Johnson, General TELLERS.
Duff, James Layard, Captain Oswald, James
Duncan, George Mauls, Fox 31"faggart, Sir J.

RAILWAY Comm FITE ES

(YESTERDAY.)

MOUSE OF LORDS.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY.
The Committee met today at eleven o'clock, Lord Radnor in
the chair, when the examination of witnesses on behalf of the
GLASGOW, DUMFRIES, AND CAZILISLE
RAILWAY
was resumed.

Mr. Miller, civil engineer, was first examined. He stated that
in 1839 his attention was first called to railway communication
between Glasgow and Carlisle. A general survey was then made
of the country for the purpose of a line by Mr. Locke and himself,
and the two lines now before the Committee was the result. He
was then, as now, decidedly in favour of the one by Dumfries and
the valley of the Nish, in preference to that by Bentock. The
gradients In the plans and sections of 1839 were far more favour-
able than they were now, the severest on the Caledonian route
being lin i 13. At present the gradient at the Bentock summit
was 1 in 75, and nine miles long. He was of opinion that
two lines along the coast were much preferable
to one through the c. ntre of the country ; and as the coast on one
side was supplied by the North British the Caledonian was less re-
quired, and if the Dumfries line were formed the Caledonian would
not be at all necessary. The Dumfries line went through a much
richer and more populous district than the other. All the landed
proprietors through whose grounds the line passed were in f..vour
of the line. The Duke of Buccleuch, through whose grounds the line
went fur twenty-seven miles, was a strong supporter of it. The worst
gradient was only 1 in 100, and no assistant locomotive engines
would be required. Though the Dumfries line was longer from
Carlisle to Glasgow than the Caledonian, yet the bad gradients on
the latter, and the delay and irregularity at the forks,
would give the Dumfries line such decided advantages
that in his opinion the traffic would travel in
less time and with greater security than on the other. He esti-
mated the whole cost of the line from Cumnock to Carlisle at
850,0001. The remaining portion of the line, from Cumnock to
Kilmarnock, would be 350.0001., snaking a total capital of
1,200,0001. The latter portion of the line would be much
heavier in proportion to distance, than the former.

The wiiness was cross-exanained at length by Mr. Hope, with
the object of showing that the difficulties which he had dsscribed
as interfering with speedy travelling on the Caledonian line, were
not at all correct; also to show that the Caledonian would afford better
accommodation to a larger amount of population and a greater
extent of country than the Dumfries line. He was of opinion
that, even admitting that the Ca,edonian was formed, the
Dumfries line might be made to pay as a local line, as it went
through a fine agricultural county.

.To the CUAIRMAN—There was a large traffic between Liverpool
and Glasgow, and also a considerable amount by Fleetwood and
Ardrossan. He was of opinion that nearly all the traffic would go
by the railway.
Mr. Vignolles, civil engineer, was next examined. He said he
knew the country well through the two lines under consideration.
In considering lines of railway from the south to Edinburgh and
Glasgow, he thought the fork ought to be at Carlisle, so as to ac-
con.modate the local traffic in the best manner. The
routes he would propose would be from Carlisle, by Hawick,
to Edinburgh, and by Dumfries to Glasgow. The great
advantage of the line to Dumfries was, that besides
supplying an important line of country, it would form
in connexion with Ireland through a line from the latter town to
Portpatrick. Comparing the Caledonian line with that by Dum-
fries, as a communication with Glasgow, he decidedly preferred the
latter, as it supplied Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Ayr, and other im-
portant towns, besides its termini, whereas the Caledonian line
supplied Glasgow alone. Tt.e gradients and elevations of the
Caledonian line he considered v(ry objectionable.
Cross-examined by Mr. HOPS— He went over the lines in about
three days. He travelled in a post-chaise. He was, by such a
limited time, only able to take a general survey of the line, and
therefore gave an opinion founded on that survey. He did not
pretend to give particulars or details. He considered the public
could never get the benefit of proper railway accommodation
without competition. Suppose the two lines were formed, he did
not think there was sufficient to support both, though he thought
that the Dumfries line, having a large local traffic, which the
other could not have, the Caledonian would be starved.
It was then proposed to call Mr. Brunel, the celebrated engineer,
but it was intimated that he was under examination before another
Committee (Group L), and could not be had till he was at liberty.
The traffic tables for the Dumfries line were then proposed to be
put in as part of the case, but the Committee decided that as the
line was a project they could not receive the tables.
Mr. Mann, a clerk of the House of Lords, deposed to the num.
ber of petitions that had been received in favour of the Dumfries
line.

Mr. Brunel, having been sent for, now arrived, and his examine.
lion was proceeded with. He supported the views of the previous
engineers with respect to the superiority of the line by Dumfries to
the Caledonian in respect of gradients and engineering peculiarities.
The Dumfries line, though 124 miles in length from Carlisle to
Glasgow, could, in his opinion, be traversed as quickly as the 104
miles of the Caledonian.

The witness having undergone a brief cross examination,
Mr. ANDREWS intimated that this was the case for the Glasgow,
Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway.

Mr. AUTIN said he appeared for the Edinburgh and Glasgow
Railway Company against certain clauses of the Bill; but as his
was a serious and important case, and would involve the examina-
tion of many witnesses, he would suggest, in order to save expense
to the parties connected with the two lines under consideration,
that the Committee decide the case between them before going
into his case..

Their Lordships agreed to the suggestion, and retired to de-
liberate.

In a few minutes :hey returned, when

The OsamuA:v said that it was the opinion of the Committee
that the preamble of the Caledonian Bill was proved, and that
therefore there was no necessity for Mr. Cockburn summing up
his case.

Mr. ANDREWS was then heard against a portion of the Bill that
related to certain quarries belonging to Sir Thomas Dalrymple, for
which, as they were to be taken in a great measure for the use of
the line, that gentleman clai:ned greater advantages than were
offered in the Bill.

Evidence was tendered in support of the Learned Gentleman's
statement, at the close of which the Committee adjourned.

GROUP NN.
NORTH WALES RAILWAY.

The Committee on this Bill met at eleven o'clock in the Lord
Chancellor's Court, Lord Portman in the chair. The other Mem.
bers of the Committee were the Earl of Harewood, the Earl of
Aylesford, the Earl of Home, and Lord Camoys.
Mr. CALVEAT was counsel for the promoters.

The only opponent was Mr. Archer, a private gentleman.
The preamble of the Bill sets forth that the Company intend to
construct a line of Railway from Portdynlaen, in the parish of
Edean, to Bangor, in the county of Carnarvon, to be called the
North Wales Railway.

The only matter for the consideration of the Committee was
Nether or no the prayer of the petition, which was ftom Mr.
Archer, should be acceded. Mr. Archer was formerly secretary to
the Cosunittee, end his petition set forth numerous allegations
against the Company; but as these were wholly unsupported by
witnessess,

Mr. CALTERT prayed that the Committee would not entertain
them.

The petition also prayed that a new Board of Directors might be
constituted.

The Noble CHAIRMAN said the petition was quite irregular, and
that it was only as a matter of courtesy they at all entertained it.
The Bill then passed through Committee, which broke up alter
an hour's sitting.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP A.

The Committee, consisting of Mr. Lascelles (Chairman), Sir J.
Phillips, and Mr. Marshall (Mr. Roche and Mr. 111`(ieschy being still
absent) met' at the usual hour this morning, and, after some dis-
cussion proceeded to the examination of the clauses of the

LONDON AND CROYDON RAILWAY
ENLARGEMENT HILL.
The discussion of which was of no public interest.
The clauses of this Bill were agreed to, with some slight alters.
tions and additions.

Another discussion ensued as to the order in which the remain.
ing Bills shouid be taken. The clauses of the
TUNBRIDGE AND TUNBRIDGE WELLS
LINE

were read by the clerk of the Committee, and agreed to without
alteration.

The Committee then examined and agreed to the clauses of the
GREENWICH RAILWAY ENLARGEMENT

BILL.

The preambles of these Bills were declared to be proved on
Wednesday, and an account of the evidence as to their nature
was published in our Evening Edition of that day.
-The Connoittee-Wercabout -to procetd with the consideration
of the Minster and Deal line, when Mr. Austin. who represents
the promoters of that line, was found to be absent.
Mr. 'Lunar said that he was prepared to go on with the Ads.
ford and Hastings line.

Mr. HILDYARD said that he had evidence to product
which he thought would have the effect of preventing
either line ilrom being 'considered at all.—(A laugh.) He (Mr.
Hildyard) was not joking, he seriously thought that a letter which
he held in his hand would have the effect he had hinted at. It Was
a letter from the Admiralty, statiag their determination to prevent
any railway from passing the harbour of the port of Rye in the
manner proposed by both lines.

Mr. TALam . asked if Mr. Hildyard wished to produce a letter
from the Admiralty to the promoters of the Headcorn and Rye line
Mr. HILUTARD said that he did not appear for any line, but for
the Commissioners of the Rothet, and that the letter was directed
to Captain Charles Hicks, a member of that Board. The letter
was to the effect that the Admiralty would not permit any bridge
to be made across the Rothe/ lower than it was crossed by those now
existing.

Mr. TALBOT said that his clients of the Ashford and Hastings
line had received a communication from the Admiralty, desiring
them to deposit with them plans and sections, showing the\ pro-
posed mode of crossing the Bother. The plans and sections -Wad
been deposited accordingly.
Mr. MERREWETHER said it had not appeared to the Committee
that it was proposed to cross the Bother below the bridges.
The Committee decided that as it could not be proved under
what circumstances this letter had been written they could net re.
ceive it in evidence. They could not judge of what statements had
been made to the Admiralty, in order to
get from them such a
letter as this.
The Committee then proceeded to the consideration of the
ASHFORD AND masTriwas
On the part of the promoters of which line Mr. ME a REwETHss ad-
dressed the Committee at great length. The proposed line commenced
at Hastings, and ended at tt o works of the South-Eastern Company,
at reL miles. It had only one tunnel in
twas no steeper gradient on the
!me ,hundred, and when it occurred it lasted
tee
eAshford.wholwhole
of lengthieneh. ass T
line than one
for two„,„d..a.quuter miles. The only other engineering. dila-
cult). on the line was a curve, with a radius of one mut a
quarter mile, at the junction with the South-Eastern Line,,at
Ashford. This would cause no danger, as the engines would run
very slowly at that point. The station at Rye, which was known
to be a very improv cable place, would be so placed as to give the
utmost accommodation for the shipment of goods. Rye was a
point of communication with several parts of the continent. It was
nearly opposite to Dieppe, and is nearer to that place than Brighton.
There would be stations at Woodchurch, Winchilsea, Rye, and
Hastings,
Mr. ALEXANDER then called and examined
Mr. Benjamin Thorn, a draper at Ashford, who spoke to the
advantages to the trade of that place, which would be derived from
such a line as the proposed Ashford and Hastings line.
Mr. -Wm. Cock corroborated the evidence of Mr. Thorn. and
spoke to the great number of cattle travelling to and from Ashford.
Mr. Henry Reed, book-keeper at Messrs. Pickford and Co.'s es-
tablishment-at Hastings, stated the amount of merchandise annually
carried between St.iplehurst and Hastings by Messrs. Picford and
Co. and by Messrs. Moore, who arc extensive carriers at Hastings,
to be on an average 15,062 tans, at least a quarter of which would
be carried by a railway if there were onethere.
_ .

The witness was then cross, examined by Mr. Mellor, who re.
presented the Hastings and Ashford branch of the Brighton and
Lewes Railway.
Mr. Burphy, merchant at Hastings, carrying on business between
Hastings and London, spoke to the extensive trade between those
places, and to the advantage to be derived from the proposed line.
Mr.. coal proprietor at Hastings,
James Emery, and several
other witnesses corroborated the above evidence, and were cross.
examined by Mr. MELI.OR.
Fiis evidenc,e was still unfinished when the Speaker was an.
nounced to be at prayers, shortly before fowl' o'clock.

At four precisely the I:omm.ttett adjourned to Monday, when
they will meet at twelve o'c ock.

GROUP P.
THE SOUTH WALES FL AILW A 7

As soon as the Committee re.assembled this morning, the room
was order, dto he cleared, and after the Committee had remained
some rim; to dtliberation, strangers were readmitted.
Mr. E ButtEit the Chairman, announced that the Committee
were now prepared to proceed with the 21st clause, and requested
the promoters of tile Bill to inform the Committee what course
they intended to adopt ?
Mr. CuCKBURN wished to understand whether it was the 21st or
the 20th clause that was to be proceeded with.
Toe CHAIRMAN said that it must be the 21st clause, as that con.
tain-d the ;ine of the railway. The 29th clause contained the
power to make the railway according to the deposited plans. He
wished to know how the promoters of the Bia intended to act
after the decision of the Standing Orders' Committee, and the non.
consent of the Admiralty.

• Mr. AusTiN said that it was clear they coted not proceed with the
cLuse, which had been rejected by the Standing Orders' Committee
yesterday. The course which he intended to propose to the
Committee to adopt, if they thought tit, was the clause he held in
his han.i, and which he would presently read. He was quite
aware that the proposed clause was precisely similar in effect to the
17th clause of the public Act.
Mr. BULLER, M.P.—lt is the Admiralty clause.

Mr. AUSTIN—Yes. That clause provided that it should not be
lawful for any company to construct on the shore of the sea, or any
estuary or navigable river, wherein the tide flows and fellows, any
railway or bridge across any arm of the sea or navigable river,
without the consent of the Board of Admiralty. That was to say,
it should not be lawful for the company to construct any
such bridge as had been proposed across the Severn with-
out the permission of her Majesty, assented to by two of
the Lords of the Admiralty. The powers of the company to
construct the bridge were limited by the operation of the 17th
section in the General Act. Wherever, therefore, Parliament
granted powers to construct a railway the 17th section came be-
tween to restrict them. The Parliament enabled the Company to
execute their works, subject to the supervision of the Admiralty
and the Board of Trade. Parliament had, by its own act, incapaci-
tated itself from granting sufficient powers for properly constructing
the line ; for it can only grant powers subjected to the influence
of the 17th section of the Railway Act. It is proposed that the Bill
shouhl not be passed as it now stands. He proposed to insert a clause
which would have the effect of preventing the Company from cross-
ing the Severn without the consent of the Admiralty being first
obtained. The Learned Counsel then read the clause, which was
to the effect that it should not be lawful for the Company to con-
struct a bridge over the Severn without the consent of the Ad-
miralty.

Mr. COCKBURN observed that it was precisely the same as the
17th section of the General Railway Act.
Mr. AUSTIN—His Learned Friend was right. He contended that
the Company should have been able to make the railway just
as it had been proposed with the provision he had stated.
The efFect of the proposed clause was, mulatis mu funds's, similar to
the proviso of the 17th section of the General Railway Act. The
Legislature had frequently granted powers of this description, sub-
ject us the veto of the Board of Admiralty, and had passed several
Bills containing clauses similar in effect. He would instance, as a
precedent. the circumstances attending the Mi.? of the Chester and
Holyhead Railway. In that case there was a question, which of
two moeles proposed for crossing the Menai Straits was the better.
Both plans were objected to on the part of the Admiralty, and it was
determined that a Bill should be granted for making a line the
whole way to the opposite shore of Holyhead; but it was provided
there shou:d be a break, that no Parliamentary power should be
given to pass the Menai Straits A supplementary Bill hat, how-
ever, subs: quently received the royal assens, and the break had
been fillzd up. In the first instance, the Company had two broken
lines of railway, which were sanctioned by Parliament, in the ex-
pecte° ion that the Company would at some future period obtain the
consent of the Admealty to the passage of the Menai Straits,
and which expectation was fully realised. I. was a similar
ease with the project now before the Committee, and he admired
the justice ale; propriety of the mode which the Legislature had
adopted by this course, by not deferring the execution of works of
great public imporance for the period of an entire year. There
was no uoutit of an u,terior arrangement with the Admiralty—at
least, the presumption was very strong that the Severn could be
crossed. Toe . only reason in Parliament why, at present, the
Severn coil -d not be crossed was, that such a course would militate
against the decisions ot the Sanding Orders' Committee. In
addition to the case or the Chester and Holyhead Railway,
wnich he bad mentioned, precedents existed in the Southampton
and Dorchester, the Syston and Peterborough, and various other
lines. It had been admitted that the preamble was true, and it
now remained fur the Committee to decide whether the preamble
of the hill had been proved. The state of facts was keown to the
,House et th 2 ti ne the Bill was referred to it. The Committee had
confirmed he truth of the allegmlon, conteined in the preamble.
It state,' that it was intruded to me. e a line of 187 Telles in length,
with brar.cie.s to the extent of ell m.ies, with an amount of
oppesirion, mere nominel than real as the proportion of dissents
on the dne uas only as Ito 7i a,,ents. The Committee on
a former occasion had stated, that they would not pass the pre-
Amble, in t oesequeece of the opposition of the Admiralty, as
while that opeoatioa was continued, the uneral working of the
Bill would be eripplid. That beitig the opinion of the Committee,
they fel:tarred egaiii,t tie Bill in the House of Commons. The
House, l:ow, ver, thought the scheme a desirable one, and referred
it back to the Committee to proceed with the clauses of the Bill, in
order that it might be reported. The allegations in the preamble
are already esitiounced to base been proved. I'he Committee had
been called upon to state in what way the clauses could be re.
ported so as to tut nish the House, on the report being brought up,
with ful; iiiforulaliou as to the entire contents of the Bill. There
%CU uo doubt it was quite competent to :he Committee to pass the
Bili as it now stood, arid also to insert clauses in the Bill, for the
purpose of reporting the Bill in a more perfect state than at pre-
sent. The only question remaining was, how could the Committee
report the matter appropriately to the House P The Committee
could douleles., it they approved of the proposed clauses, report
the Bili with thorn, and they were perfectly at liberty to consider
any new clause that would enable them to arrive at some satisfac-
tory cane lesion ; and there was no difficulty in the proposed clause
that could not easily be surmounted.
The Committee having deliberated some time,

The CHAIRMAN said the Committee was not prepared either to
adopt the propoqed clause, or to accede to the request to leave the
matter in tne hands of the Admiralty. The course which was
ehll iven to the promoters of the Bill was to obtain the I Irg,er portion
of their tine. The Bill would give them power to make their line
from Pembroke and Fishguard to the water side of the
Severn, by e,rrying it over the bridge at the Aust
Passage, or by taking it through Hock Crib, or
by blinging it round by G!ouct ster, as it might be after-
wards found most expedient. It the pro.noters of the Bill ac.
ceded to these terms they were at liberty to proceed ; at the same
time the Committee were willing to listen to any statement that
Might be urged in opposition.
Atter some discussion,
_

Mr. At7TiN said he would propose an alteration in the preamble
which would enable the Company to pass the river by the Aust
passage, or by the Heck Crib; or by an application, in a future
session of Pa. liruntnt, to carry their line into GI Jucester or to any
place that might her, after appear desirable.
General JOUNSON observed that it would be open to the Com-
pany to proceed during a future session.
Mr, AcsTIN Yes, only we wish to carry out our plan if pos-
sib:e during the present re4sion. The preamble might be amended
so as to give us power to make a railway from Brimspill to Aure.
We won to übtaJi a communication with the Forest of Dean
Railway at the same time that we have a connexion between
London ,ind the south of Ireland.

The CHAIRMAN said the proposal was consistent with the meaning
of the Committee. There was, however, one part of the resolu-
tion of the Committee which militated in some measure against
the proposal, for by carryirg the line up to Aure it would be
carryii.g it out of the sphere of the line laid down.
The point was then discussed at considerable length, and was
eventually decided by the Chairman saying the Committee were
of opinion that it would not be consistent with their previous deci.
sion to allow the railway to be carried further than Chepstow.
The preamble was then altered, the words, " with a branch to
join the Forest of Dean Railway," having been struck out.
Mr. COCKBURN, on Lewitt of various landowners, objected to
the preareide being pissed on the ground teat the tine not only oc-
cupied the country through which it immediately proceeded, but virtu-
ally the en ire of the remtining portion, The promoters of the Bill
ought to be satisfied with a line as far as Chepstow, and they
ought not to have any other. By their present scheme they
were precluded from crossing the Severn, and if some other pro-
ject should come before Parliament prepared with a Bill to go
over the Severn in a manner that should be satisfactory to the
Admiralty, .they would be told by the South Wales Railway Com.
pany that they had; no right to appear before:Parliament, as they (the
South Wales Company) were already in :possession of the ground.
The Conlin ttee had given them an inchoate right to prevent other
projects from bring brought forward in a future session, and on
this ground he objected to the pawing of the preamble.

The room was then ordered to be cleared. On our re-ad-
mission,

The CHAIRNIAI4 raid the Committee had agreed that the following
amendment should be inserted in the preamble—namely, that the
making of a railway from Fishgudrd and Pembroke to Chepstow,
with a branch to Monmouth, would be of great public advantage.
The preambl.., as amended, was then agreed to and passed.
The clauses of the Bill were then proeveded with, and were all
acceded to without opposition.
The Bill w.:13 oreereei to be reported.

At the elt.e of ,he proceedings the Cii&IRMAN asked whether
the promoters of the
IKONDI3(7111 AND 7IRREPORT-s RAILWAY
would be ready to proceed with their project to-morrow morning.
The consideration of that scheme would involve the same diffi-
culties as had accrued in the South Wales Railway, as to the
crossing of the Severn. And he would put it to the promoters,
whether, the present advanced period of the session, it was ad.
vistable to proceed with the scheme? Would it not be better to
defer it uuti, the next session

Mr. Caters, who appeared on behalf of the Monmouth and
Hereford Company, said the question required some consideration;
but, at all events, he shmuld be prepared to state to.morrow morn-
Ins what course he intended to adopt.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow.

GROUP X.
DIRECT NORTHERN.

At the siti.ing of the Committee this day, the first witness called

The Hon. and Rev. Charles Dundas, rector of Epsworth, in
the island of Axholme. The part of the country he resides in is
peculiarly rich and fertile, and the district possesses a population
of about 14,000 inhabitants. Is of opinion that a railway com-
munication passing through that district would be most beneficial
and useful, for it would afford means of transit for the
agricultural produce of that part of the country to Leeds, and Hull,
and York, and would also have the effect of lowering the price of
coals. Did think that the London and York line would afford very
little accommodaticn to that part of the country, while the Direct
Northern line would skirt the park of Epworth.
Cross-examined—The means of communication that the people
Epworth now had with those parts of the country to which they
wanted to send their produce was by the navigation of the Trent ;
the cost, by water carriage, of corn from Epworth to Doncaster, was
91. pei ton ; that by railway would be much less in his opinion.
Mr. Moore, a large occupier at Bedbourne, testified to the large
amount of the agricultural produce of the whole of the country
around Kettering. bridge, and the whole of the country up to Bar.
ton- on.t he- Humber.

WillulPle, collector of the customs' duties at Gainsborough,
&c., stated that the town had only been mace a port about four
'ears, and that during that t'me the amount of du it.; had increased
from 3,4001. in the first year, to upwards of 70,0001., and that the
traffic of the district had very largely increased .

To the cross-examination of Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAM, Mr.
Willingale itated that h^ anticipated a great draught of the traffic
from the western districts especially, nor did he think that the
Midland Counties Railway would in any material degree affect the
traffic on this line.

To ltar.:l3,serts it, this witness replied that there was a great com-
munication lmwven the different places in that district, especially
between Gainsbnrough and Swinton, and that the inhabitants were
exceedingly anxious to obtain the facility which this railway
would seem to afford.

10 Mr. WEBSTER, Mr. Willingale stated that the coramuni.
cation with Sheffield would be of great advantage to the town, and
would tend very largely to develop the facilities of the country. To
the eastward also there was a great field, especially about the
Norfolk coast, and more particularly Yarmouth.
grocer at Gainsbnrough, Mr. Thompson, a stated that the corn.
intinication with London was circuitous and dilatory, the goods
which he _received being frequently six weeks on the journey.
From the north the inconvenience was almost as great, for it
ftequently required fully five weeks to transport goods from York
in Gainsborougb.
To the cross-examination cf Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAM the wit.
rress stated that the usual charge for carriage from Liidon by
water was, for tea 4/. lOs. a ton, while by railway it would only be
H. ss. 4d., making a difference of 3/. 4e. Bd. in favour of the con.

Sumer; for coffee the charges respectively were, 11. 12s. 6d. by
water, and railway N. ss. 4d., making a diffe ence of 7s. 2d. ;
and on hops there would be a saving of IL 14s. W. a ton. The
markets in the north, especially those of York and Newcastle, were
by far the best for soap, but the inconvenience of getting it from
those quarters prevented the advantage which might otherwise have
ben enjoyed by the neighbourhood.
Mr. Musson, also a grocer and tallow-chandler during the last
seventeen years at Gainsborough, gave evidence to the same effect.
Mr. Watson, formerly engaged In the conduct of a bank, but now
a plasterer at Gainsborough, stated that the market for his artiste
was materially injured by the delay which arose from the delay
between the town and London. In the article of potatoes espe-
cially the inconvenience was very injurious, there having last win-
ter been a dearth of that vegetable in the London market. The
only means of communication with London was by Hull, or the
station at Masborough, on the Midland Counties Railway,
making a circuit of 100 miles. By the railway to York, by the
Direct Northern, the distance was forty.three miles five furlongs,
while by the London and York the distance was fifty-two miles,
making a difference of something more than eight miles in faveur
of the Direct Northern.

Mr. Lansdall, a seed merchant at Gainsborough, stated that he
dealt largely with Newcastle as well as with London, and confirmed
the evidence of the previous witnesses as to the delay which oc-
curred in the transmission of goods, and the benefit which he con-
ceived would arise from the formation of the Direct Northern
railway.
Mr. Ashton, a farmer, near Gainsborough, who had a large
dairy on his hands, Laving between ninety and a hundred cows, and
making about fifteen tons of cheese in the year—He bought a good
deal of lean stock in the north, and then, after fattening them,
sent the bulk of them to Rotherham market—perhaps as many as
three hundred a year. He had also about 40 acres of willows on
his hands, the greater part of the produce of which he sent to Hull,
for which this railway would be a great convenience.
Mr. Miers, the manager of the Lindsay and Kesteven Banking
Company, said that from his knowledge of the district he had not
the slightest doubt of this line being the greatest convenience.
The communication between Gainsborough and the Isle of Ax..
holme was very considerable, there being, however, one packet which
ran at the rate of ten miles an hour. This railway would be a
great convenience, and the feeling of the inhabitants generally
being decidedly in favour of the Direct Northern line. The
packet between Hull and Gainsborough was generally about ten
hours on its passage, and the inconvenience was very considerable,
especially on market days.
To the CHAIRMAN—The witness stated that he thought a com-
munication between Gainsborough and Sheffield very important,
and that this was the best line to give it.
Mr. Stagg, a corn-merchant at Gainsborough, stated that the
quantity ot corn introduced into the place from Lincolnshire and
the eastern coast was of wheat about 80,000 quarters, weighing
about 16,000 tons ; of linseed cake, and other articles of a similar
character, there were 10,500 quarters, weighing about 2,100 tons.
Of oats there were 5,000 quarters, weighing about 711 tons ; of
barley there were 25,000 quarters. Three-fourths of this grain
were sent to Wakefield for the supply of the district In
its neighbourhood. The facility, therefore, which this railway
would afford was evident, and of great importance to the town of
Gainsborough and the country around it.
Mr. Newbold, a woolstapler at Beckingham, near Gainsborough,
stated that he purchased about 500 packs of wool a yeAr, chiefly at
the east and north-east of Gainsborough, the bulk of which he sent
to Leeds, to which place the nearest way was that proposed by the
Direct Northern Company, and would give him the opportunity of
stopping at the Selby market, or going on to Leeds, as might he
necessary.

Mr. Heeley, who resided about a mile to the east of the river
Tient, at Ashby-de-la.Cour, stated that he was well acquainted
with the warp land down the course of the river in that neighbour-
hood, which was about 12,600 acres in extent, and that the whole
of it was exceedingly productive. Most of the produce
would, in the event of the railway being formed, go
to Gainsboreugh by the Trent, and then go westward
and south by the railway. There were three qualities of this warp
land, the first of which comprised about 3,500 acres, and was of the
very first class of fertility. Across these were six ferries, which
were used for the transit of cattle and sheep from Lincolnshire to
Yorkshire; but the Leeds and Selby Railway has greatly affected
this trade, and, unquestionably, the formation of the Direct
Northern Line would improve the social position of the country.
To the cross-examination of Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAN, Mr. Heeiey
stated that it was Lot improbable but that an embankment might,
if placed across land intended to be warped, interrupt the
process, but the injury might be prevented by proper precautions,
so as to allow the water to run offend leave the deposit to remain.
There was a number of boats constantly employed in the conveyance
of goods on the river Trent, but he did not think them either a
cheap or convenient means of transmission; and he thought that
if a railway were to be formed it would certainly take all the goods.
There bad been as many as 18,000 sheep passed over his ferry in a
year, before the Hull arid Selby Railway was made. If a railway
were to be made all this business would come back again, and it
would now go on the Direct Northern to Rotherham and that
neighbourhood, but they had a great preference for Wakefield as a
market, the latter being a place where the stock proprietors got
better prices.

To Mr. WEBSTER, Mr. Heeley said that this was the only line
which would benefit the north side of the Trent ; and to the In-
quiries of ttv, Committee he replied that so far from there being
any difficulty in warp;ng land through the existence of a railway
embankment, there would be every advantage if they formed cul-
verts through it, for they had carried the process of warping by
the ordinary river action as far as well could be done.
Mr. Collett, M.P. for Lincoln, stated that he had received a
memorial from his constituents, which showed that the inhabitants
were as three to one in favour of the Direct Northern line. This
memorial had been signed by 730 of the most respectahle persons
in the place, the whole constituency being a thousand. They were
all In favour of the whole scheme, and were of course anxious to be
placed on the trunk line.

Mr. Atkinson, a farmer and land. surveyor at Langholme, stated
that he knew the whole of the country between Nottingham and
Gainsborough, as well as that between Hull and Gainsborough, and
on the banks of the Ouse, and was prepared to testify to the evi-
dence which had previously been given respecting the Isle of Ax.
holme. First class warp land would fetch a rent of from 50s. to
100 s. an acre. Ancient warp land, which was so situated as
to receive the first deposits, averaged from 18 to 12 feet
in depth ; the second class warp land was from 10
to 4 feet deep ; and the third class was not more
than three or four feet deep, the two last might, perhaps, bring
about 40s. an acre. 7he total amount of the produce of the
Isle of Axho!me might be stated at 65,959 tons, the greater part
of which went to London and the manufacturing districts. He
did not think much of the water conveyance, and he, indeed, him-
self frequently seat his own corn by land carriage ; and, from the
peculiar situation of the inhabitants of that district, it would be
exceedingly advantageous if they could put their produce on the
carriage on the railway. There was a large plaster bed in Ax-
holme which occupied 300 acres, with a thickness of twenty-four
feet. This, when groun i, was used for flooring, and if it could
be got away, would be more extensively used than it was. The
principal imports consisted of lime, bones and timber, for which
the Direct Northern line would provide a ready means of access.
To the cross.examination of Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE, the wit.
ness stated that the warp land extended inland about three or four
miles from the banks of the river, the best land being of course
nearest the stream, and consequently was about five miles from
the railway, and westward of the Trent. The quantity of warp land
was about 14,788 acres ; of the clay land there were 10,476 acres ;
of the sand loam there were 7,272 acres; and of sand land and
peat 13,095 acres—all, except the last description, being good, and
some of it very rich.
Mr. C. Al,tham, of Crowle, stated, he knew the whole of the
district just spoken of, and confirmed the testimony of the previous
witnesses as to the richness of the land. The Marshland between
Helton and the Ouse was remarkably rich. A ccnsiderable quan-
tity of linseed and rape could be much better got by the Direct
Northern than by the London and York line, as the latter was ten
miles off, and the carting would consequently be increased rather
than diminished.

Mr. (Anson, of Axhey, a brick and tile merchant, said that he
consumed a considerable quantity of coals, which came from near
Barnsley. At the pit's mouth, tilt), cost 4s. a ton, but by the
carriage the price was raised to 14s. a ton, while, if they could get
it by the Direct Northern for Snaith, and Pontefract, or Wakefield,
they would save 4s. 6d. a ton. The formation of this railway
would also greatly facilitate his business, as he bad last year an
offer for 1.000 toils of gypsum, which he could not supply from the
want of means of carriage.
The Committee then adjourned till twelve to-morrow.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.
HOUSE OF LORDS, July 4.

Their Lordships sat to-day in a Committee for Privileges. The
Peers present were the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Shafteslury,
Lord Brougham, Lord Skelmersdale, the Earl of Leitrim, Lord
Templemore, the Earl of Falmouth, the Marquis of Winchester,
Lord Sandys, the Earl of Wicklow, Lord Saltoun, Viscount Hawar.
den, and the Bishop of Ely.