The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-10 00:00:00

by the Hon. Member for Kerry, and tells you that if you
concede any thing to the Catholics, all the present bad
symptoms manifested throughout Ireland will be aggravated.
The present state of things cannot continue ; and if what
the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen tell us be truly his

opinion, he must wish us to restore the former state of
things, which, although he does not allude to it, is the only
logical conclusion at which his argument can arrive.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—The Honourable Member towards
the close of his speech adverted to some opinions of
mine, which have not been presented to the House,
and, although, I think it at all times inconvenient
to allude to'any thing said out of this House, he is
welcome to do so. But with respect to the opinions
he has thus alluded to, be must give me leave to say.
that they were not addressed to him. I never
,supposed the. Hon. Member would be satisfied with any
security whatever. Tons of security would not, I am
convinced, satisfy him.—(Hear, and laughter.) My opi-
nion was not offered to those who have steeled their minds

against all change whatever. It was offered to that large
portion of the community out of doors, who think the pry-
sent state of things to be lamented, and wish to yield
every thing to the Catholics that may not be inconsistent
with the security of Protestantism in its best sense. The
security I proposed was offered to the consideration of
those who entertain feelings such as I have described, and
not to those who have the feelings of my Hon. Friend,
who, from his speech to-night, has convinced me no secu-
rities would satisfy him.. He dreads the shocking result
:that must follow the introduction of a certain number of

Catholic Menitiera into this House, and he detailed to us

. • .
- -
the whole process by which they were to sap the founda-
tions olithe Church. The utmost he would grant was a

short, space before the dreadful catastrophe was to take
place. I feel none of the Hon. Gentleman's apprehensions,
and I am confident there is no responsive voice to them in
the breasts of the people of England. My Hon. Friend
objects to this concession being made on the principle of
expediency; if it was made on mere expediency I should
object to it as much as himself; but I am satisfied that the
claim is founded in equity and justice, and it is on that

ground I yield to it. Expediency is here hacked up by
right. The Hon. Member has said-
--r- sed to
Nos facimus, Fortuna, Deam aeloque

But he has forgotten the line which precedes it—
Nullum numen babes, si sit prudentia.—(Cheering.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Solicitor-General
for Ireland, divided, the people, as regarded this subject,
into three classes. First, there were those who wished
.
things to remain as they. were; second, those who were
for conceding the Catholics their rights ;- and third, those
who were for reviewing a state of things long since passed.
I do not see the necessity for this division, and think it

would be the more convenient, as well as the more cor-

rect way, of looking upon the people as consisting of two
classes; those who are prepared to grant the concessions,
either with or without securities, or
,those who will not
grant them upon any consideration whatever. My own
opinion is, and I have never disguised it, that the only
true security will be found in the cessation of religious dis-
tinctions.—(Cheers.) On the other hand, I cannot
guise from myself that a great portion of the people of this
country are not prepared to take the same view of the sub-
ject as myself, but who look, with anxiety for the establish-
ment of some security, which will assure them that, in re-
moving the disabilities which will affect their fellow-coun-
trymen, they will not endanger the Protestant Established
Church. With respect to the other class, who resist all
concessions upon principle, putting aside the question of
security, it is vain to urge any thing to them having that
object in view. This House, seeming to me, to consist
principally of these two great parties, I think some course
ought to be taken by which its feeling upon the question of
security might be ascertained. I must confess that lam
not quite satisfied with the disrespect, if I may so call it,
' with which the Hon. Baronet, who-last- night opened this
debate, treated this subject. The deairableness of dis-
covering some security that would satisfy both Catho-
lics and Protestants has been acknowledged by some
of the most able men who have sat in this House,
Mr. Ponsonby, whose name must be dear to all interested
in the success of this question, has given it the weight of
his authority. _(The Hon. Member here read an extract
from one of Mr. Ponsonby's speeches, expressive of that
gentleman's opinion on the desirableness of finding some
security which Catholics could conscientiously give, and
Protestants confidently accept.)—l say, then, supported
by this authority, :that the question of the securities that
may he given by theCatholies, and accepted by us, is well
worthy of the consideration of the House ; and I trust that
those Hon. Members who now refrain from granting what
the Catholics wish; from a deubt of the possibility of esta-
blishing such security, will agree to the motion that has
been made, to go into a Committee, where the, point may
be more properly discussed than now. I must take leave
to differ with the Hon. Gentleman who just now• spoke,
who said that the Catholics would not receive this conces-
sion with gratitude. Sir, lam satisfied that, the time for
that is not yet passed ; but I am also satisfied, that if we
delay the payment of this long standing debt much longer,
circumstances will arise, which will put the consideration
of gratitude out ,of the question. lam unwilling to tres-
pass longer en the time of the House, on a subject which
has been so often argued with eloquence and wit. It would
be presumptuous, in me to arrest your time by the repeti-
tion of arguments which have, been handled so much more
ably than I can pretend to do. It is with delight that I
assent to the motion of the Han. Baronet to go into a Com-
mittee, where I trust. the means will be found of connect-
ing security with emancipation, and that thus we may be
enabled to settle a question which in any other way it will
be -impossible to settle to the satisfaction of all—l say of
all—because if, on the one hand, I grant that six millions
of Catholics ought to have certain rights, so, on the other,
I consider that the jealousy of ten millions of Protestants
(night, in granting those rights, also to be taken into the
account. If the proposition of the Protestants be reason-
able, I think it as much entitled to consideration as that
advanced by the Catholics.—(Cheers.)
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, and spoke to the
following effect :—Once more, Sir, do I follow in the
train of all that is wise, and good, and great; of all who
have illuminated and honoured this country since the begin-
ning of the present century—in the train of a body of per-
sons who have been well described by an Hon. Gentleman
on the other side of the House, whose zeal against the Ca-
tholic Cause has not been weak, as a combination of in-
tellectual superiority, such as was perhaps never before
united to attain any single object. I confess lam not so
confident in my awn judgment as not to feel great relief
and consolation in the coincidence of my opinion with that
of the eminent individuals to whom I have alluded. I feel
confident in their judgment; for I do not think so ill of the
perception of such Englishmen as to imagine that for 28
years they could have argued and considered that question,
and have been deceived. I cannot suppose it of the flower
and choice of the English community in one of its most
brilliant periods.—Could they have been deceived upon a
question like this—a simple question of policy—to be de-
cided by the events passing before their eyes ? Ido not
mean to speak disparagingly of any one ; but I say that
all who have held the first rank as statesmen, however
much they have differed on other questions, have been una-
nimous on this. This, Sir, is not an appeal to authority
against reason ; for I think the concurrence of a number of
such judgments, itself a presumption of reason, and that of
the greatest force. I conceive it would require little less
than a miracle to suppose such a body of men continuing
in a delusion so long upon a subject that must have been so
often in their thoughts. Unless the phenomenon can be
clearly traced to any other source than the power of truth,
we are bound to ascribe it to that power. 'I never heard
an attempt account for such a concurrence of opi-
nions,cti
arplanetion of it given that could be even
loyad eezto
called plausible. lam entitled, therefore, indeed bound
in reason to asceibe it to the power of truth. Sir, I last
night wished to have spoken after the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Solicitor-General, but I do not regret that
I gave way to two Hon. Gentlemen, one of whom uttered
the most effective, and the other the most convincing
speech I have for some time heard on this illation. I re-
gret not either that I gave way to the HOD. Gentleman
who showed so beautiful a union of private affection and
public principle. He showed himself a true Protestant,
to trusting the maintenance of the Protestant Church to
the same power that raised it. Such, in my, opinion,
is the spirit of a true Protestant.—(Cheers.)—Equally
'lo'6 do get having given way to the Hon. Member for
Kerry,
who gave the House so deiightfel a history, I will
not say of the pledges and Compacts,' but of the e-epeete-
tions excited, the suggestions offered, and the hopesn held
out, on the subject' of EmanCipation, in order bring
about the pnion. The people of Ireland still Continue to
solicit as a: boon that Whiph•the 'Minister of England gave
them hope would have folloived as a eonsericeriee of the
Union. I repeat, Sir, that the impreselon made by a speech,
such as that delivered by my Right
Ifon. Friend, must haye
been so great, that it never
can be a siNect of regret to
me, that 1 gave way to him last night'. I would haye
been glad, however, to have spokep after my Hen. and
Learned' Friend, the Solicitor-General, to whom I always
listen with that degree of pleasure and attention 'that the
esteetet I feel for him would naturally inspire, and with all
that rospect which is justly due to the calmness, clearness,
and conciseness, with which he expresses himself upon
every subject, and to the judicial candour which he inva-
riably brings to the examination, even of political mea-
, lures. Bat, Sir, I am compelled -by some things which