The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-14 00:00:00

~,:- i

tare last veer. It was very true that last Session he con •
sidered the measure as a temporary one. They hail expe-
Vence of its effects since then, and endeavoured in this
"Jill to avoid the errors of the former. It appeared to him
that they hail succeeded in avoiding tlaen, at leapt in a
great part. Ile recommended this 111:!!, because the duty
'night he so varied as to amount to an absolute prohibition.
If their Lordships did not adopt the principle on which it
PLfteeded, of a duty varying with the price, where were
.
,u2Y to go? They who opposed this principle did not
"dggest any other. The groat evil of a prohibitory system
*483 that it occasioned corn to be locked up in warehouses,
Which when the price rose, was suddenly thrown into the
Pat;arlet, and thus produced all the evils of sudden fluctua-
.ll". The great advantage of this Bill was, that while it
avowed the introduction of small quantities of corn, it
L'eteoted the country against an extraordinary
Zwas clear that it had not excitedhostility
the part of the agriculturists, for no petitions were pre-
,-jted against it. He trusted their Lordships would per-
bliit to be read a second time, and not prevent the esti-
,,._
-.tent of that good understanding between the menu-
a aio+,
-mring and agricultural interests which it was likely to
Lord"MAL3IESIII7ItY explained.
▪ torel-BEDESDALE said, the late system tended to pro-
MU,
l
a
speculation, and it was to that his greatest objections
and y'
He wished the merchants and manufacturers would
~-7,134 to this, that what is the produce of the country costs
nothing, what is brought in costs something. This was a
1n4,0n of political economy, if he might use the words.—
riltue production of corn at home, the capital, land, and
'user of the country were employed. That was not the
'•
With the produce of foreign countries. This was the
n why they should employ as much as possible their
-‘vn /and. It would be absurd to employ it in the produc-
tiou
t), of wine or sugar, ,because the soil was pot adapted to
The produce of the country was, in fact, the sup-
riZt of the.popnlation, and of every branch of industry.—
land was the capital from which every other article was
bk_jise Duke of WELLINGTON said, • the tendency of
CAIiIH was to prevent warehousing, because, as the price
t'l!,-tlie duty ruse. There would, therefore, be less temp-
tlilon to warehousing than under the former system. In
4461 under a system of absolute prohibition, or very
of Clr. se, corn came out of bond without the payment
lin duty, or a very small duty. NOthing of thatd
ofd happen now, as speculation in the warehousing
corn could not be cal tied to so great an extent. It
t true, as the Noble Lord hail of red, that, under
measure ()float Session, the price of oats and barley rose
‘"gler in proportion than that ofcorn. They were, perhaps,
tVuly favoured. They were specially protected in that
t, Wheu the present measure came to he welt
consi-
hltsd, it appeared that it would be inexpedient to kee the
E4lion so high. The Noble d (Malmesburyp ) ob-
Zed to the mode of taking the averages, as Ireland was
included. Had this been done, it would have given
t
0 many complaints anti inconveniences which it was
area would not he counterbalanced by any equivalent
1.../141,see. The great object of the Bill was to afford a
it;g'onable and sufficient degree of protection, and to avoid
brot4Ooh as possible the evil of fluctuation. The quantity
kl,Ught hit.° the market last year was inconsiderable.—
t the entered at 225. Bd. and about 140,000 qrs. at IL
; but, on the Ist of May, after these 140,000 qrs.
• keen brought out, a large quantity still remained in
„;.Isareliouses.
'heir Lordships then divided—
Contents—Present
Proxies
Non-contents—Present..
Proxies 7-19
Majority -67
A was ordered to be committed on Tuesday.
'.ionrned at Ten o'Cloek.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Joist 13.
teks soon as the SPEAKER took the Chair, the Right
1314°:!. T. P. COURTENAY took the maths and his seat,
his re-election after accepting the office of
14
-President of the Board of Trade.
ti`r'Ord G. LENNOX presented is petition from the
geons of Chichester, praying that facilities might
\4frorded to the Study of Anatomy.
Di Ir. WODEHOUSE presented petitions from
qi:itt's in Caernarvon, praying for the abolition of
rery,
from
t! BENETT presented a similar petition fro
'llthabitants of Warminster.
'111'• LOTT presented a petition from the 3ier-
ii,
Ilts, Agriculturists, and other inhabitants of
,-- t:li.rister, in favour of the circulation t)f small notes.
H. SMITH presented a petition from the
i',l,tLl:tants of Colchester and its vicinity, praying
Sire Abolition of Slavery.
itauk,_ll. VIVIAN presented a petition from the
r.t.;rlarits of Callington, against any further con-
:4 to the Catholics.
111' sit a• VIVIAN also presented a petition from
(arse4l place, praying for a tax on the importation
e
8 sh wool.
tislr It PARNELL moved for a return of copies
Ve memorials from the Commissioners of the
t44ebll'.lbury and Holyhead Roads, relative to the
kelhhmerit of the steam-packets from the latter
C„;,i_t°
kitre'lnel WILSON presented a petition from the
the ants and inhabitants of Whitby, in favour of
krettlation of small Notes.
414( 'LIDDELL presented a petition from the Iron-
aroel.B and Collier's of Nottingham and Derby in
kilor of the issue of Small Notes.
Feat „1.,(1 ALTHORP said, that owing to the late-
tl the Session he felt it necessary to postpone,
kt,.tht year, the further progress of the Freeholders'
t;ltration Bill, and therefore moved, that the Bill
et:lraitted this day three months.—Agreed to.
tae
' ttl W. POULETT presented a petition from
:itr,l.4fiabitants of Chester-le-Street, in favour of the
Vtion of Small Notes. Also a similar petition
k! the inhabitants of South Shields.
t .
t`iiQ KNATCHBULL presented a petition
tithe inhabitants of Lenham, in Kent, praying,
ohj Protecting duty on
•Wool. Also a petition
f: the inhabitants of the canto town, praying, for
'srl,r.lher protection against the importation of
Wool.
'ltk • Alderman WA IT I I MAN presented a petition
itrkLhe inhabitants of Smithfield, praying that the
might not he removed from its present site.
itt„,r It, • WILSON: said, that the butchers them-
ht had complained that the market was not large
rt, C. BURRELL said, that a market for
NWas much wanted at the West end of the

much for the cont:cuience of the
Las for the safety of the public : if a market
established, at the West end, it would
1
thei necessity of having cattle driven through
14trsts 'to the great terror and peril of women
41;,141(14 and to the detriment of the meat.
!es Alderman WAITHMAN always felt that it
e 3'r
tsar the market should be enlarged.—The
dlrq'll.Nrasthen ordered to lie on the table.
LEWIS presented a petition from en-
WisinSt the .Ale-house Licensing 1
1.• W. RIDLEY presented a Bpiel frooufi
T - • inn' for the Abolition
plc, pray
fry `V ,
STERN presented three similar petitions
\1 441i* skin and Wethersby.-
\VV' GRANT' presented a petition from the
Ltraus of Ross, praying for a Tax an Foreign
biC:ERGUSSON said, that the greater portion
ii,'4„l;°atal of Scotland was paid from thd fleece,
t4t 'the thought the landed interest were not de-
01.1,- a tax on the importation of Foreign Wool.
o„7'••ENNEDY thought that the opinion was
;lilt-4Nris so general as he supposed, and it was
tes for the Hon. Gentleman to speuk as if re-
it., ;1,,Z do whole of the landed interest.
f,'"-;RGUSSON explained.
biro BURRELL was surprised that the
'4,v(=. no explanation of their intentions on the
tyonthe. Wool trade. He expected a moderate
'lf. reign Weol.
'tkik KING said, that it would be much better
att: specific motion upon it, and thus call
er of the House fairly to the subject,
\%'-7' thus introduce a discussion upon a pet'-
', 'len a duty was proposed to be ;)'reed on en
Material, those who proposed it should state
•t I was that called for such a duty, and then it
as`
that the wool grower was not con-
-1 n terVSt when he asked fora proted: ting duty.

• , , •
They should also say what duty ;t was that Theyre-
re-
quired, instead of asking indefinitely for a duty.
Mr. BENETT said, that the duty required how
was that which they had formerly possessed, during
which possession it did not do any harm to the
country. The fact was, that when the price of
wool was reduced, a reduction took place also in the
exportation, and landed estates in the West of Eng-
land had fallen in value at least 20 or 30 percent.
Mr. C. GRANT did not think the members of
the late Government were to blame For not bringing
the subject before the House. For himself, he was
ready to discuss the subject whenever it should be
brought on. The Hon. Member then presented a
petition from the woollen manufacturers of Galls-
shiels against a duty upon the importation of foreign
wool; and also a petition from Southampton praying
that foreign flour might be allowed to be manufac-
tured into biscuit for ships use.
SMITHFIELD MARKET.

Mr. GOADON moved that a Select Committee
he appointed to inquire into the state of Smithfield
Market, and to report their observations thereon to
the House.
Mr. Alderman WOOD objected to the appoint-
ment of a Committee at so late a period of the
Session, as it was utterly impossible that the la-
bours of the Committee could be productive of
any benefit; brit if the Honourable Member would
postpone his motion until next session, it should
have his (Mr. Ald. W.'s) support, and he should do
all in his power to afford facilities to the Committee.
He thought that the appointment of a Committee
at this period would unsettle the minds of persons
having property in the neighbourhood of the market.
He defended the Corporation of London against
the . attacks which were contained in the petition
presented on a former night, and said that the Cor-
poration had made 'sevaraL attempts to remove the
Smithfield market; but all their efforts were de-
feated by majorities of that House, by which the
Bills brought into Parliament by the Corporation of
London were thrown out. Since the Bill last brought
in by the Corporation, the market had been enlarged
one-fifth. He moved as an amendment, that the
consideration of the subject should he postponed to

next session.
Mr. BENETT opposed the amendment.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said the petitions
presented against Smithfield market, and upon which
was founded the present motion, were got up by a
party with a solicitor at their head, wholly ignorant of
the real state of the market, or of the trade carried on
there, and whose only wish in doing away with this
market was to promote a job which they had concoct-
ed, for erecting buildings in lieu of this market. He
denied time truth of the complaints contained in that pe-
tition, arid wished to call the attention of the House
to the fact, that those petitioners did not attempt to
point out any remedy for the supposed evil. He
contended, that neither in Paris, or any other city
in Europe, were slaughter-houses bettor conducted
than in the neighbourhood of Smithfield market.
The Corporation of London were most anxious to
do every thing in their power to accommodate the
public, and hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Gordon) would let the subject lie over
until next Session, and if he came fOrward then with
any reasonable plan, it would meet with no opposi-
tion from those connected with the City of London.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that after the candid
admission made by the Hon. Alderman, he thought
the Hon. Alderman might waive his objection to the
appointment of a Committee. For his own part, he
(Mr. Peel) was favourable to laying a foundation
for the inquiry by the appointment of a Committee
this Session.
Mr. R. GORDON. disclaimed all intention of
throwing an . imputation on the Corporation of Lon
don. All that he (Mr. G.) asked for was a Com-
mittee of inquiry.
Mr. Alderman ATKINS recommended the post-
ponement of the inquiry until the next Session.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON resisted the mo-
tion on two grounds-tirst, that there was not time
for inquiry•during the present Session; and, secondly,
that the statements put forth were unfounded, he
thought the subject should be allowed to lie over
until next year.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division; but
it was.understood that the House did not divide, and
that the motion for a Committee was agreed to.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A Message was brought from the Lords to state
that their Lordships had agreed to the Covent-garden
Market Improvement Bill.

RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS.
Mr. Secretary PEEL brought in a Bill for the
more easy recovery of Small Debts, which was read
a first time, and ordered to be read a second time
on Monday next, and to be printed.
BANK NOTES (SCOTLAND AND IRELAND) RILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in moving the order of .the day for the second reading
of the Bank Notes (Scotland and Ireland) Bill,
observed, that he had communicated with some
Hon. Gentlemen opposed to this measure, and that
an arrangement was made, in which he hoped the,
House would concur, that the discussion on the Bill

should be taken upon bringing up the report, and
that the Bill should now be read a second time
without entering into the discussion.
Mr. PORTMAN wished to enter his proo2st
against the Bill, and against the principle which his
Majesty's Government sanctioned by the suppression
of the Small Note circulation. Ile thought the
measure would be injurious to the landowners, the
traders, and all classes of persons.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM willingly acquiesced in
the arrangement entered into to postpone the dis-
cussion until the bringing up of the report. He might
state, however, that his objection to the principle of
the measure remained unabated.
Mr. HUME said, it was his intention on this oc-
casion to have stated his objections to the principle
of the Bill, and be meant in the Committee to pro-
pose a clause obliging every issuer of notes periodi-
cally to return to the Treasury an account of the

number of notes issued by him. In fact, the clause
was the same as that which he (Mr. Hume) pro-
posed in 1826.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday next.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the, Day for the House resolving itself into a
Committee of Siipply.
Colonel DAVIES said, that before the House went
into a Committee, he had a resolution to move by way
of instruction to the Committee, to the effect, " that
it is expedient to consider the revenue of the country
and the expenditure of the army, with a view of reducing
this branch of the service as low as it was iu 1823, or as
it could be brought consistent with the public security."
In moving this resolution he should trouble the House with
a few words. The Army Estimates were now before the
Committee, and it was .understood that the Finance Com-
mittee would not report on this branch of the expenditure
this Session. He had the greatest respect for the Mem-
bers of that Committee, individually and collectively, but
he could not set out of view that there was not a single
Member of that Committee connected with the three great
branches of the public service. With respect to the Army
who had the Committee examined? There were the Duke
of Wellington, Lord Palmerston, the Adjutant-General,
and the Quarter-Master-General. If the Committee were
desirous of receiving information as to the expediency of
keeping a large fiirce, there were no persons more likely
to afford
up
Ordthem all the information they could desire on that
point than those they examined ; but if the'object was re_
duction, there were no witnesses whose evidence was, less
likely to lead to that result. He did not blame the Finance
Committee. They very properly commenced
.by examining
persons of high rank, and he knew it teas difficult ttcbfind
persons not in office who weredisposed to offerthemselves.

He (Colonel Davies) believed that no evidence on Ole
state of the army, which an officer could give before a
Finance Committee, would snake any difference with the
Doke of Wellington, but this was the feclinz that pre-
vailcd and prevented
persons from offering themselves.
Without going much into detail he would beg the House

for a moment to consider what the means of the country
were. His golden era was in 1823 ; he did not go so far
back a 3 1792 ; 1823 was a year of peace, but the peace of
Europe was then threatened by the lawless aggression com-
mitted by France in hur invasion of Spain. In 1823 the
gross income,uriting from taxation, leaving out of the ac-

count all the trickery batweeu the Bank of raigland and
the Government, which. only tended to confuse and swell
the amount on paper, was 61,300,0001. This was the in-
come in 1623, but in 1827 this income fell to 58,417,7281.;
and supposing, for argument, that the revenue fur the pre-
sent year, will be the same as that for the last year. there
is a decrease in the revenue since 1823 of 2,883,2721.
If an individual was encumbered with debt, and in-
stead of diminishing, it was increasing, whilst the
income was diminishing, what would be thought of
that individual's affairs, and yet that was precisely the
case with the country ?, He . would now state the gra-
dual increase which had taken place in our military force,
since 1823, and the gradual increase in the charge of
maintaining that force. In 1623, our military force con-
sisted of 69,144 men, and the charge for that force was
2,561,000/. In 1824, the number of men was 76,700,
end the charge 2,734,0001. In 1825, the number of
men was 86,893, and the charge 3,062,000/. In 1826,
the number of men was 87,240, and the charge
3,157,000/. ; and in 1827, the number of men was
86,808, and the charge 3,159,000/. This year he took
it for granted that the number of Dien and the charge
would be about the same as last year. Thus they were
going on year after year, increasing rapidly in their career
of expence. But this was not all, the troops in India had in-
creased from 19,800 to 25;000. It might be said those troops
were not an expence to this country, but he believed he was
warranted in saying that our finances in India were not
in a very satisfactory state. The total expenditure of this
country for the army, the navy, and miscellaneous services
was now 17,815,0001., to which he did not add the ex-
penditure of money for public works, which was 1,283,0001.
The whole expenditure in round numbers, therefore, was
19,000,000/., whilst in 1823, the whole expenditure was
only 16,800,000/, so that there was an increase between
the expenditure of the present year and that 'of 1823 of
2,228,000/., to which, if they added the decrease of the
revenue, which was 2,287,400/, the country was worse
off this year than it was in 1623, by a sum of 5,116,0001.
Now, he asked, was it possible to go on in this way ? He
believed that, in the situation of the country, no new
taxes coda lit laid on, and sinless new taxes were im-
posed, or a reduction took place in the public ex-
pences, it was clear that the country could not go on.
He did not call for the reduction of those establish-
ments on which the honour and security of the country
depended. He only referred to 1823, when a Ministry,
not famed for economy, did not think of proposing the same
military establishments which it was now proposed to keep
up. He thought arrangements might be made with respect
to our Colonial garrisons, which would prevent the ex-
yence and loss occasioned by the constant recalling of
troops. By the present arrangement 6,000 or 7,000 men
were always at sea, and were of no use. If a garrison of
a thousand men were to be relieved, the relief had a voy-
age to take, perhaps ofsome months ; those who were re-
lieved were then the saute time returning, and a large body
of men were thus constantly kept going and coming. He
only proposed an extension of the system now in existence.
With respect to the regiments in India, if it was a punish-
ment for them to remain there, it was a punishment they
would enter into themselves. There was another point
to which lie wished to direct the attention of the House—
he meant the system of depot companies, which was a great
injury to discipline, and a system very injurious in its ef-
fects ; 13,000 officers and wen were rendered ineffective
by this system. He believed the Noble Duke wished to
make every practicable reduction, but he should be assisted
by Parliament. As the Duke of Wellington had vanquished
the enemies of Isis country in the field, be would -do that
country a still greater benefit by restoring it to prosperity,
by a reduction of its expenditure. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving the resolution.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE hoped the Hen. Member
(Col. Davies) itiquld not think it disrespectful if he ab-
st►ined front snaking any reply to his observations until the
House went into Committee.
Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN supported the resolution.
Mr. MONCK observed, that in no despotic state was
there a dead weight so large as that of this country.
Mr. HUME wished to knew what occasion there was
for keeping up this year an army of 90,000 infantry ? He
could account for it on no other ground than that his Ma-
jesty's Government were fond of large armies, and the pa-
tronage they threw into their hands. Including the navy,
the artillery, the volunteers, the militia, staff, the yes.
manly, and the constabulary force of Ireland, we had
meetly 150,000 men in arms. He was glad the Govern-
ment had not precipitated the country into a war, and as he
hoped they did not mean to do so, what use could they have
for such a force as this? He feared this country was going
on as the Noblesse of France before the French Revolution.
He was not opposed to a standing army upon principle.—
It might at one time have been contrary to the spirit of
the Constitution, but now. be was sure it was an integral
and au economical point of our Constitution. He
was always averse to changes in - the Ministry, and had
Mr. Canning lived the Estimates would have been very
different this year, for he knew that he had given orders
for the reduction of the Estimates to the extent of one
million and a half. The moment he was gone, however,
his plans were changed, and the reduction no longer
thought of. But he might as well speak to the winds as
to that House. The Gallant Member opposite, the Secre-
tary at War (Sir 11. Ilardinge), he hoped would effect the
saute reductions in the army which he had effected in the
Ordnance. He gave him credit for what he did there, hut
he did not do half enough. He was quite sure that
the three establishments might be reduced from 16 millions
to 12, allowing five millions for the dead weight. If the
military gentlemen in civil office would • but divest them-
selves of the idea of Waterloo and the Ist of June, and the
navy the same, and not think the salvation of the 'country
depended upon having the services in a state fit for imme-
diate action, all would go on well. We should remove
taxation, reduce our military establishMent, and until
then we never could make any progress in improvement,
wherefore he should support the motion of his Honourable
Friend. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by saying that
the House could not be of a different opinion, and after
asking pardon for having trespassed so long, said he would
not go into all the details, which would occapy too much
time.

Mr. W. SMITH should abandon his duty. to the
country if he did not hear his testimony to that part of the
resolution which went to a reduction of the expenditure of
the country. One of his reasons for supporting it was,
that when details were alluded to, there was no describing
the advantage which official persons had. It was impos-
sible for him to ascertain, whether in a particular instance
an item of 5,5001. should be better than 6,7001., but this
he was sure of that the country could not bear her ex-
pences which from year to year increased instead of dimi-
nishing the burden of debt also continuing, as it appeared
fiorn the accounts submitted that the utmost amount of re-
duetiok which had taken place from 1815 up to the last
two years, only came to 2,700,000/. It made but little
difference even if it were 5,000,000,., because if in thir-
teen years of peace the improvement were not in a much
greater ratio, there could be no greater absurdity than the
idea of ever discharging the National Debt-. With respect
to the comparison made between our present state, and
that of F`rance in 1789, he did not believe that our condi-
tion would lead to revolution, but he thought it must to
bankruptcy.
The Amendment was then put !tad negatived without a
division, and on the question that the Speaker do leave
the Chair,

Mr. BRIGHT r,,se to move an instruction to the Com-
mittee, when he was informed by the Speaker that no in-
struction could be moved to a Committee of Supply.
Mr: BRIGHT then said, he was sorry be was in error,
hut the question he wished to propound, was one of consi-
derable importance. His object was, that there should be
a small-sum of money placed at the disposal of philosophi-
cal persons, 14 the purpose of investigating the natural
productions of a part of our Colonies. Expeditions had
lately been sent out under Captain Parry and others, and
• the country had borne their expences ; in the last reign,
voyages of discovery had • been carried on in the same way,
and a great deal of good had been effected. The West
India islands were the Colonies which he wished to have
examined, as nothing of the kinl had taken place there for
near 100 years, wherefore he would wish to have". small
sum placed at the disposal of the Royal Society, to send
out persons there to investigate their natural productions.
The whole of South America had been visited for this pur-
pose, • nd it Was incumbent or. this country to look to the
natural advantages of her own Colonies. His notion was
that 1,0001. should be given this year, and as much next, '
and then if the Colonies did not proceed, they would, if
advantage were to accrue from the investigation, have no
excuse for not proceeding.
An Hon. MEMBER asked whether an instruction could
not be moved, when

The SPEAKER said the Hen. Member should be aware
that an instructh•in never could be moved to a Committee
of Supply, and that nothing could be brought on in that
Committee of which notice had not been given in detail,
by the estimate la'd before the House.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as
the subject could not he alluded to in the Committee, the
House would perhaps pardon him for making an observa-
tion. That was the first time be had ever heard of there
being any deficiency of information with respect to the
West Indies, as there were few portions of his Majesty's
dominions respecting which there were more minute details,

tvilerefore he would not recommend any grant for the pur-
pose stated by the Hon. Member.
The question was then put, the Speaker left the Chair,
and the House went into Committee,
ARMY ESTIMATES.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE said thatabout three months
ago his Noble Friend Lord Palmerston had moved the
vote for the forces for the year, for the purpose of passing
the Mutiny Bill, and obtained a sarn on account to the amount
of 2,000,0001., leaving the future amount in the discre-
tion of the House, as if there li.ad been no vote, and every
:Member at liberty to take any course that seemed proper to
His. Hon. and Gallant Friend (Colonel Davies) had
objected to the amount ; but his Gallant Friend, as well as
binaself,.must be aware, that there was very considerable
difficulty in limiting by any precise rule the amount which
ought to be voted, taking into consideration ourcolOnial po-
licy, the preservation of tranquillity in Europe, as well as the
state of the population at home. The Gallant Officer ob-
jected, first, that the numbers were too great, and wished
us to return to those of 1822 ; but it shoals.' be recollected
in the Colonial force, where there were six regiments
additional, that was nothing but a transfer from the army
extraordinaries into the present cStimate, wherefore there
was in point of fact no real addition at all. Another point
which would show that the present amount was not greater
than that of 1822, was to be seen by looking at the esti-
mates with respect to non-effectives, the number of whom
would be reduced by the process of heightening the stan-
dard from five feet six to five feet seven inches, in conses
quence of which there would be a greater difficulty in re-
cruiting, and that would cause a diminution in the propor-
tion of 80,000/. to 110,000/. the latter being the expense
of the whole 5,000 men. As to the Colonial Corps, al-
though his Hon. and. Gallant Friend objected to the present
system, he surely could not intend that the Colonies were
to be perpetually garrisoned by them, for if that course
were proceeded further in it would destroy the energy arid
character of the army, and lie himself was sure that his
Gallant Friend would not like to keep his brother officers
in the exile which such a system would inflict on them.
The 00th regiment was for many years a Colonial corps of
this deseription, a condemned regiment, and in consequence
except for the sake of patronage, it seldom happened that
any of the better description of officers would Ise indsteed to
go into it. If you were to deprive the army of ambition,
its national character would be destroyed, as they might re-
collect was the case fourteen or /ifteen years ago with re-
spect to the Foot and Body Guards, the latter •of which
were very deficient as to the character of the officers. The
Life Guards were merely considered as pageantry, and sta-
tionary, and the consequence was what he had stated.—;
From that he should say that any corps left stationary in
the manner proposed would lose its character, and he be-
lieved that the destruction of the army must be the e'n-
sequence if the Colonial Corps were thus increased. On
the third point the Depot C.Ompanies, which his Gal-
lant Friend had stated to be most useless, he should
without meaning the least discourtesy, abSolutely deny his
assertion. He would, on the contrary, assume that there
could not be a better system for the annual supply of a re-
giment abroad, say for a period of ten years, than this,
for, on the return of a soldier after his term, instead of
pensioning him off, he could be sent to a depot, where he
would be able to have the benefit of his native air, and do
European duties. So too with tire officers, who, instead
of unlimited leave of absence for a year and a half, or two
years, might he sent to the depots in the room of those
who took their places, by which means the battalions
would be rendered effective. It was also to be recollected
that when battalions returned from abroad, they, were
enabled to remain only four years at home, and the present
system enabled them, by falling hack on this aid, to reform
themselves with greater speed, wherefore ha differed from
his Hon. and Gallant Friend on all his points, snore espe-
cially that of the Depot Companies. He would then iu a
very cursory manner go through the estimates, which
stated its number, organisation, and distribution. The
total number was 80,719, which, deducting the Officers,
left the rank and file 77,719—(here the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer proceeded with extreme rapidity to state
the distribution of the army, so that we could not accu-
rately catch his statement)—leaving twenty-nine battalions
in Great Britain. He had thus calculated on 74 regi-
ments on foreign service, and those were barely sufficient
for the ten years' service abroad, it being considered that of
these seven were to be relieved every three years. That
would show that the home establishment was kept at its
lowest possible standard. A considerable reduction had
taken place, such as that in retired officers, which caused
a saying of 6,6001.; and various others had been effected,
amounting in the whale to 140,0001:, which did not ap-
pear in the Estimate. He would slot then go into the
items, but merely would state that there was an increase in
the number of in-pensioners to the number of 399, the
expense of whom was 123,000/. lie concluded by moving,
" That it is the opinion of the Committee that a sum not
exceeding 1,210,694/. 15s. sd. begranted to complete tie
sums for defraying the expenses of the land forces in Great
Britain and Ireland and abroad, exclusive of the forces in
the East Indies."

Oa the question being put by the Chairman,
Colonel DAVIES said, that if the Colonial Corps were
kept up, it would not happen that a regiment after serving
in the• East Indies could only remain four years at home,
and asked if such a regiment was quartered all that time
at home, would it be considered a stigma ? One tattalion
of the 60th was always a condemned regiment, to which
all the bad characters of the army were sent, but if 30 or
40,000 men were permanently kept up, no such stigma
could apply to them. With respect to the Life Guards,
when he entered the army their officers certainly were not
of the highest tone in society, but when they were sent
abroad they behaved as well as any other corps, and so
would the militia if well officered. The West India ner,ro
regiments also fought well. As a nucleus in case of war
he thought the depot companies entailed great expence--
but when persons went to this extent, -they abandoned the
vantage ground we possessed from our insular situations,
for as long as we possessed the controul of the sea, there
was no fear that any of our colonies could be invaded
without our being able to have a farce to prevent it.
Sir II• HARDINGE explained.

111 r. HUME said, if auy instance were wanted in oppo-
sition to the Right Hon. Gentleman's position, it would
be found in the existence and condition of the Native troops
in India, who ncvcr left the Colony. Ile looked to eco-
nomy, which could he best practised by having the troops
stationary, and when it was seen that there were 71 batta-

lions abroad, that must he manifest. The army in 1822
was 69,000, while at present it was 86,000, and he asked
what necessity could exist for this increase of 17,000. As
long as the House allowed such power to Minister!, there
would never be a reductico. In the Maur4ius and New-
foundland these were hundreds of troops kept, when a very
few troops would answer every purpose. The Gallant
Officer had said there were in Ireland 23,000 men, whence
10,000 men might be withdrawn if Government acted as
they ought. lie shoul4 like to know why they had more
Life and Horse Guards now than formerly. Formerly,
'.here used only to be 700 or 800 men of them, but now
we had 1,300. Of Foot Guards we used to have 3,700,
but now we had s,7oo.—(Hear, hear.) But the fact was,
all the duties were now overdone. He understood that at
Windsor, during the late King's reign, a guard of one hun-
dred men did all the duty, but now there was a whole re-
giment..---(A laugh.) Of Household troops, we used to
have 10,000, but now they amounted to 14,000. We
made a great fuss, and took great credit to ourselves for
discharging a few clerks, who cost SO/. or 90/. a year ;
but we kept thousands of men here, who, with their horses,
cost kom 100!. to 150/. each. The Noble Lord, formerly
at the head of the War Department, had given evidence in
favour of the manner in which the small battalions of 400
or .500 men each were increased to 700 or SOO each, and
credit was taken for the change ; but now it appeared that
we were returning to the old plan of small battalions...—
We bad fifty-one depots of 500 men each, where 650 offi-
cers were employed in drilling the men to be sent to the
regiments abroad. He did not Fee why the enormous ex-
pense to wbich this put us should not be reduced.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that the Hon. Member
was mistaken in supposing that these depots were an ad- '
ditional expenFe, Ibe fact was, that four companies of a
regiment now remained at home, whilst the rest went
abroad. Those that remained at home supplied these on
the foreign station with fresh men, and thus kept up the
effective force of the regiment during the ten years it was
abroad. All the additional expense incurred by keeping
these companies at home as a depot was Bv. a day for each
battalion. Arid these battalions, it must be remembered,
performed a duty, which if they did not perform others
must lie engaged to 4.

said that the raising of the small battalions
into large ont,s, or the decreasing the large to small, must
be bad, yet credit was taken for both.
Lord PALMEHSTOX said, the Hon. Member was
ner he had stated. Each regiment consisted of 740 men,
the battalions reduced in the man-
oifl4oBuoP,Pf°6roinnigwhich the increase was made : and
32itsanakotezt: number of officers served for the 740 men, as in
179.1 served for the 400. (Hear.) It was this which
was the great saving by the arrangement. He had lately
compared the total expense of two regiments of foot guards,
and two of the Hue, in the course of the last year, and
found that the former one came only to 7s. per year per
man more than the latter. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel TRENCH thought he was bound in justice to
observe, that the systeM of the War Department reflected
equal credit on those who had gone out, and those who

Were in.-41-lear, and langl)ter.,—ile should not have
trespassed on the time of the Committee, but that he was
anxious to make a slim t statement in opposition to that of
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. - He was doubly anxious
to make this statement, because it was due to the memory
of an illustrious individual, now no more, tinder whose su-
perintendence it had arrived at its i.resent improved condi-
tion. He requested the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) to do
him the honour to follow him while be read this statement,
and judge if it were accuratE. He would "say in all sin-
cerity to the Hon, Member— .

" Si qUid novisti reefing istis
".Candidus imperti—si non, his utere mecum"
FIRST CASE.
Cavalry in 18•2-21 s, R. and F., 5916 men, exclusive of
Life Guards, Harse Guards, and India, and 5916
men, It. and F., formed on the system of 179-2,would

make 3 regiments, and cost 460,6.4
3910 It. and t., as formed in 1822, cost 430,000

Saving by better arrangement £ 39,000
SECOND CASE.
lOfantry of the Line are R. arid F, in 1322, 49,510.
18,510 H, and F., on the plan of 1792 form 120 regi-
ments, .and cost
But they do cost in 18t3 1,990,000

Balance in favour of economy:of 1829 . 348,24
THIRY) CASE.

Comparison, including pay and allowance, of the gross amours
of Troops.
•

18,000 men in 1792 cost (vide Journals) £1,251,573
Add for increase in 30% years
Total cost of 48,000 at 1822 at rate of 1792 £1,877,351;
PROPORTI ON.

As 48,000 men 1,877,359/. : : 68,000 men : : 2,639,0001 X 2,659,000
But by the estimate 69,000 men cost only

Balance in favour of economy of 182', 413,000
Deduct forage paid by Commissariat in 1822 lOO,OOO

Remains balance £ 315,000
• FOURTH CASE.
On Mr. Hume's own data, though unfavourable, 48,0110
men in 179'2 (including every thing) cost the whole
establishment
Difference of pay and allowance one half

48,000 men at rate of 1792 would in 1812 cost £3,196,723

As 18,000 men : 3,406,9224 : 68,000 men • • - 4,052,000
ADMITTED DIFFERENCE OF PROPORTION BI—
TWEEN EFFECTIVE AND NON-EFFECTIVE FORCE.
•;A) 1792 as 500,0001. : 2,000,0004 41
Is-22 as 2,0000001.: 6,080,000/. 1,65 ' 5110,000
(B), Items not in existence„in 1792

15..2. Cost of 68,000, at rate of 1792 s 5,785,000
Difference of value of money at 15 percent 968,004i

Real cost of 68,000, at rate of r 790 6,350,000
ATount of estimate 0,103,000
Balance in favour of economy 1E3:?2 553,000
Deduct forage as above

Real balance £ 453,000
(B) Royal Military College $13,952
Royal Naval Asylum 26,149
Pay of General {Seers ' 132,425
Foreign Half.pay 114,870

He begged to observe, that in this statement he had admit-
ted all the arguments that cool 1 be urged against it, though
lie had the authority of an Hon. Member opposite for say-
ing that value of money had varied during these periods
from 25 to 40 per cent.—(Cries of " No.")—He had
only taken it at 15 per cent.
Sir FRANCIS BLAKE wished to ask, in the event of
the conciliating spirit failing to tranquillise Ireland, bow he
could provide troops far the Colonies without increasing
the present establishment ?
Mr. HUI4IE wished the establishment to be reduced to
that of IS2.
On the item of 136,0001, for the pay of General and
Staff Officers serving in the United Kingdom and foreign
Stations,
Mr. HUME stated that this item had been considerably
reduced by the late Duke of York.
Colonel TRENCH explained.
The item was then voted.
On the item of 109,993/. Ss. Pd. to,defray the expenses
of the several Public Departments for 1828,
Mr. HUME complained of the amount of this Estimate.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said that within the last nine'
years, the number of clerks in the War-office had been re-
duced by one-half.
The sum of 175,614/. was then voted for hospital con-
tingencies.
On the item of 66,212/. Ss. fur defraying the expenses
of the volunteer corps,
Mr. HUME complained of the extravagant expense
which this corptilirought on the country.
Mr. Y. PEEL said, that the reduction of the estimate
for the volunteer corps was two-thirds, compared . with
what it was last year.
Mr. HUME said, that the Volunteer Yeomanry
Cavalty, since the year 1517, had cost the country
1,312,6521., which would have been saved if the advice
given in 1817 and 1818 had been followed.
After a few words from Sir J. BRYDGES in defence
of the Yeomanry Cavalry, the resolution was agreed to.
A grant of 32,471/. 11 e. 7d. for the maintenance of four
troops of Dragoons, and twenty companies of Foot, kept up
for the Recruiting Service of the East India Company, was
agreed to.