The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

country we meet with one great and striking anomaly. Thu
religion of the great majority of the people of that eoliths
has been for centuries treated by the State as a hostile relie
pion.—( Opposition cheers.) Even yet that has not been
entirely removed.—(Hear, hear.) Civil equality has been
granted to the Roman Catholics of both countries. The penal
laws have been removed, or are in process of removal,
still there are traces remaining of that disposition
on the part of the State to which I have referred,
and those traces are nowhere more perceptible or more nox-
ious than when they interfere with the education of thepeople.
Now, Sir, I have stated this difficulty—a difficulty which has
been elCarly ascertained and admitted. It has been the subject
of repeated inquiries—by Commission—by Committees of this
House from a very early period since the passing of the Union,
and, in later times, we have not only the advantage of the pre-
cise nature of the difficulty being ascertained, but e have the far
greater advantage of considerable practical experience of the
mode by which that difficulty may be satisfactorily encoun-
tered, and certainly overcome. I will shortly, Sir, refer to
some of the inquiries which have been instituted on
this subject. In the first place I will refer you—but,
before I make reference to the report to which I shall shortly
advert, I will simply make one observation, that the va.r:ous
plans for educating the people of Ireland with the aid of Go-
vernment grants which have been made, have gene-
rally failed wherever there has been an interference with
conscience in matters of religion.—( Hear.) I state th.s
broadly as my opinion. Now, Sir, I would first advert to a very
remarkable inquiry that was instituted by a Commission in 154,6.
I will advert to the report of that Commission, made in the
year 1812. It is important, with reference to the subject to
which it is now my duty to call your attention,
and I hope you will pardon me if I read a few ex-
tracts from that report, because this report appears
to me to contain the germ of the sound principles
on which the diffieulties of establishing a system of national
education in Ireland are to be met, and, also, it contains the
principles on which the measure which I am now about to pro-
pose to you is generally founded. The Commission was ap-
pointed in 1806, and its report presented in 1612. I beg the
attention of the House to these remarkable words—" We
have applied our efforts to the forming of a system
which, whilst it will afford the opportunity of educa-
tion to every description of the lower classes of
the people"—in passing, I may observe, that the prin-
ciples on which we stand are not limited to the lower
classes, but are capable of extension to all classes in Ire-
land. The principle is that the proposed system
is open to every description of the lower classes of the people,
while at the same time, by keeping clear of all differences with
respect to the particular religious tenets of any, it will induce
the whole to receive its benefits as ono united body, and
under one and the same system and, the same establishment.
They then refer more pointedly to the subject in these term.,
" It is of essential importance that there should be new school*
for the education of the lower classes in Ireland, and we ven-
ture to express our unanimous opinion, that no such plan
however wise and unexceptionable in other respscts, can be
carried into effectual execution in this country, unless it is
explicitly avowed, and clearly understood as its leading prin-
ciple, that no attempt shall be made to influence or disturb
the peculiar tenets of any sect or creed."—(Hear, hear ) I
beg to call particular attention to this report, and I repeat it
contains the only sound principle upon which education in
Ireland may be dealt with ; and I again repeat, that it is the
germ of the principle which has been lately carried into
effect in Ireland, and is the principle upon which the mea-
sure I am about to introduce is founded. I beg to call the
attention of the House to the signatures attached to this
report. It is signed by the Primate of Ireland, the Protestant
Primate of that day. the Archbishop of Cashel, the Protestant
Archbishop of Cashel, the Bishop of Killaia, Dr. Ebring!on,
and Mr. Leslie Forster. More unexceptionable authorities
there could not be. I now beg leave to call the attention of
the House to the Commission of 1826. The Members who
composed it were Mr. Frankland Lewis, the late Baron Fore-
ter, Mr. Blake, Mr. Glassford, and Mr. Grant. They r port,
"that schools should be established for the purpose of giving
to the children of all religious persuasions such useful instruc-

Sir R. PEEL moved that the House at its rising should ad-
journ to Thursday the ]sth of May.—(Cries of tt Friday,
Friday.") He had given notice of his intention to move the
adjournment of the House to Thursday, and he felt bound to
adhere to his original notice.
The motion was agreed to, without discussion.
The O'CONOR DON asked for leave of absence for three
weeks for Colonel White, which was granted.
MR. WALLACE'S PETITION.

e:neva:l on the part of the responsible ad, leer of thc
Crown, shall depend upon the cause which shall be shown.
I would say that. it would be well that the princiial
should reside within the walls of the college ; but it
is nut intended to provide accommodation for either the pro-
fessors or students ; in this respect following the example of the
universities in Scotland. But, however, there shall be
im-
mediate control and supervisien exercised over the students
of the college indirectly, and no doubt perfectly satisfactory
to the parents and guardians who entrust the students to the
care of the college, No provision is made fur the residence
of the professors or students within the walls of the col-
lege. Instruction will be given by lecturers, and there
will be daily examinations; for lectures, without con-
Cnual and searching examination, may be made per-
fecily fruitless, and attended with no benefits. I have
already stated that, consistently wilh the principle upon which
this measure is based, there will be in none of these colleges
endowments for professors of theology; it is not reposed to
allow anything for that purpose. Religion, however, is not
to be entirely disregarded. It is our intention to propose that
every facility be given for endowment by private benefaction of
professors of theology, subject to the visitorial power of the Crown.
I think it would be monstrous if any other course should he
,aken.---e Hear.) Now, Sir, it is clear that in the colleges in
Cot k and in Galway the Roman Catholic students will be a
majority, but I do hope that the Protestant youth of the neigh-
bourhood will attend those colleges and share in the advan-
tages of education in the arts and sciences which can there
be procured. But suppose wealthy Protestant parents should
he anxious to secure for their children attend:no. those col-
leges, that some provision should be made for the education' of
those children in the doctrines of the religion held by their
forefathers, by means of private benefactions and endowments
for securing them religious instruction in the colleges of Cork
and Galway, it would be hard beyond measure if full effect
were not given to these beneficent intentions, and if every
facility were not afforded for carrying them into effect. We
intend that th's Bill should afford all these fa-
cilities. Of course there will be no compulsory at-
tendance on these theological instructions, and the
professorships will only be instituted in case the: e
should be a sufficient number of students, and a provision made
by benefaction and endowment. The principle equally applies
to the Roman Catholics. I suppose and hope that many Roman
Catholic youths will attend the college of Belfast. That college
will be mainly a Presbyterian college, but it would be hard be-
yond measure if the parents of Roman Catholics should not
have every facility afforded them for erecting endowments for
the religious instruction of their children in that college. The
attendance on these theological instructions will, as I said be-
fore, not be compulsory. The fundamental principle of this
measure—that upon which I ask for it the sanction of this
House—is the avoidance of all interference, positive or negative,
with the religious scruples of the people. That is the principle for
which I contend—that is the principle from which I anticipate
the success of the measure.—( Hear.) I have said that there
were certain circumstances relating to Belfast to which I would
allude. Now, the House will bear in mind, that the acade-
mical institution of Belfast has received the aid of a Petite-
mentary grant of 2,0 eq. a year. This for some years past
has been voted in the annual estimates. That institution
was originally founded on the principle for which I contend
as clearly necessary for the foundation of academical institu-
tions in Ireland. That institution is mainly attended by the
Presbyterians of the north of Ireland, and by the Presbyte-
rian youth training for the university in that part of the
country. There are in that institution now four
endowed ministers, as professors of Divinity, nominated, not
by the governing body of the academical institution, but by the
General Assembly of Ulster, in connexion with that circuit.
It would be hard to deprive that body of the benefits they have
now received for a period apprpaching, I think, to twenty years.
It is nut ti e intention of the Government to deprive the
General Assembly of Ulster of the benefits they have hitherto
enjoyed. It would form no part of this plan—it would be in-
consistent with the principles of this Bill to introduce anything
into the particular character of theological endowments, but in
making this statement it is right that I should inform the
House that it is the intention of the Government, in the annual
votes, to propose the continuance of the endowment of the four
ministers connected with the Presbyterian Church in the
north of Ireland—to continue it not only in the present year,
taut they contemplate its continuance in the future estimates of
future years. Now, I cannot speak confidently, but I have
every reason to believe if this measure should be sanctioned by
Parliament, that facility will be given by the academical mana-
gers of the academical institutien of Belfast, to transfer their
building and premises, and even their library, on easy terms.
to the Government. for the purpose of founding a college in
the north of Ireland. Of cours if that arrangement should
tae place, s
a timethereie ttw,ciul d
is a
tentsnn expenditureteri materially to diminishwhich a
trh a
quite
eex pe expense;
ure
the House would sanction. The professors now serving in
that institution have engagements with the college that they
shall tecsive the salary voted by Parliament for their live s,unless
hey shall be removed on account of misconduct. That is a
bai gain with that institution. I think it would be highly in-
eenver.ient, if this institution should be transferred, to limit the
choice of the Crown to these particular professors, because
some of them might be taken and some of them it might be
desirable not to re-appoint, but in case any one of those gen-
tlemen now occupying a situation for life, and not being re-
appointed, I think a provision should be made for ample and
uli compensation. Now, Sir, as relates to the question of
colleges, I am not aware that I have failed to state anything
eelcula'ed to make tire plan of the Government intelligible to
the House. But I should leave my statement in a
very imperfect condition if I did not, before I sat down, glance
at other great and pecuniary interests. The Bill which I shall
ask leave to introduce does no more than propose to found
colleges in Ireland. But the great question immediately pre-
sents itself, will these throe colleges be established as one uni-
versity, or, following the example of Scotland, shall the
Crown, in the exercise of its preiogative, endow each of these
colleges with the faculty of granting degrees in arts, science;
and medicine ? It is not necessary, nor even expedient, in the
present Bill, or at the present time, to come to a definite ar-
rangement on that point. But I will not, for a moment, be so
far deficient in candour as not to state tothe House what my own
judgment is on the matter. I think that the advantages in
favour of a central university preponderate.—( Hear, hear.) I
think that a central university would be a common arena
where the youth of Ireland may contest, in honest and honour-
able rivalry, for the advantages and emoluments of superior in-
dustry and superior attainments. The national character of
inch an institution can only be exalted by such rivalry, and if
you had the parts of universities scattered throughout Ireland
:hey would not be this great national institution which I am
anxious they should be. I think, also, that a great moral effect is

tion as they might severally be capable or desirous of receiving
without having any grounds to apprehend any interference with
their respective religious tenets." And then they give their
recommendation, " that religious instruction should be given
to Protestants and Roman Catholics, Rot jointly, but sepa-
rately." I will now shortly call the attention of
the House to the report of a Committee of this House in 1828.
They say that they consulted and referred to the reports of the
two commissions, from which I have already read extracts,
namely, the commissions of 1812 and 1926. I have the report
of that Committee here, and the several resolutions to which
they came ; but I will not detain the Rouse by reading them
et length, but will content myself with giving a summary of
their report in the words of a letter addressed by my Noble
Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), ie
1833, to the Duke of Leinster, at the period the National
Board was formed. My Noble Friend gives a summary of
their report in these terms:—" In 5928, a Committee of the
House, to which was referred the various reports of the Corn-
missioners of Education, recommended a system to be adopted
which should afford, if possible, a combined literary, and se-
parate religious education, and it should be so far adapted to
the views of the religious persuasions which prevailed in Ire-
land as to render it, in truth, a system of na-
tional education for the poorer classes of the community.
In this undertaking, much must depend en the characters of
the individuals who compose the Board ; and, whilst the inte-
rests of religion must not be overlooked, care mu-t be taken not
to interfere with particular and peculiar tenets of Christianity."
This matter was referred to a Committee of the Howe in 1830,
and that Committee reported that they had received much
evidence of impor'ance on the subject of the education of e
poor. The Committee said they could but hope that no further
time would be lost in giving the public the benefit of the recom-
mendation of the Committees of 1812 and 1825, or the practical
recommendations of the Committees of 1828. In the following
year, 1931, the present system of Rational education for the
poorer classes was established in Ireland. The principle upon
which the report of this Coramittee was founded, and upon
which that scheme of education rests, is summed up in the re-
port which I have just received, and which I am about to lay
upon the table of this House. It is the report, in the present
year, of the Board of Commissioners of National Education
Ireland. It is stated with brevity but with perfect accuracy
and remarkable clearness " The principle of this Board is
and has been from the beginning, that the national schools
shall be open alike to Christians of all denominations ;
and that no child shall be required to be present at any reli-
gious instruction in these schools, if the parent; and guar-
dians disapproved of it ; and as opportunity is afforded to all
children to receive separate, and, at particular periods, such
instruction as the parents and guardians provide for them." I
have now stated to the House the grounds upon which, I say,
that we are furnished with sufficient practical knowledge and
experience to legislate upon the subject. The difficulties have
been ascertained, and the mode in which they are to be met hes
been enunciated by high authorities. Possessing this know-
ledge and this experience, we proceed to the application of
the theory. While it was attempted to educate the people of
Ireland by setting aside those principles, and to connect that
education with an attempt to proselytise and teach exclusive
religious principles, we failed, although large sums of money
were annually voted. These sums, I repeat, were voted in
vain.—( Hear ) The great body of the people of Ireland did not
partake of this exclusive education. One society, that for
promoting English Protestant schools in Ireland, was established.
And in 1935, the last year in which the Parliamentary grant
was made, 21,000/. was voted, and yet, in 1831, the total num-
ber of children attending these schools was 2,500. Another
society was established which carried its operations into Ire-
land—the society for discountenancing vice. Up to the year
1825, there was an annual vote of the House in favour of this
society, and the last year the grant was 7,500/. In 1824, the
number of schools was 226, and the number of children,
12,769, of which 7,309 were Protestants, and only 4,969 Roman
Catholics. Now, the first and only experiment which had
been made on the opposite principle, and which had been laid
before the Primate of Ireland, was in the year 1812, and that,
I again repeat, was the first and only experiment which had
been made. Let me call the attention of the Howe to the re-
markable results of that experiment. I shall not go back beyond
the year 18:39, but in that year I 'find that there
were 1581 schools in Ireland, and the number of children was
205,000. I shall pass to the end of the year 1814, when I find
that there were no less than 3,153 schools, and the number of
children attending them amounted to 395,000; thus the House
will see that on this new and improved principle nearly 400,090
children are annually educated in Ireland. Sow, Sir, it has
been said by many persons that this education is almost wholly
confined to the humbler classes, and to obviate this disadvan-
tage, in the proposal I am about to make' I in' end to extend
that education to the higher classes, and so to remove the ob-
jection which has been so frequently urged. Owing to the
liberal policy pursued by the French Government, I have the
satisfaction of stating to the House that the National Assembly
have determined to immediately establish schools on cx eels.
the same principle with the proposed system of National Edu-
cation in Ireland. Now, Sir, I have hitherto spoken only of
Ireland ; but I should present but a very imperfect view of the
question in general, if I should confine your attention exclu-
sively to that country. For a very long period there prevailed
a very general impression that the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, as immediately connected with the Established
Church of the country, should not be opened to all classes of
her Majesty's subjects ; but that exclusive princi.
ple was not found to have the effect intended.
But in these difficulties it was thought expedient, and the Go-
vernment concurred in that, that there should be established
in this metropolis a third University, and in that University no
test is required of teacher or student.--( Hear, hear.) No
religious test either is necessary, in fact there is perfect free-
dom.— ( Hear, hear. ) All the Universities were combined in
perfect harmony with the University of London, and I have
given my consent to such a University being established in
Carlow.—(Hear, hear.) Well, to pass from England, and to
advert to Scotland ; amid all the religious squabbles that have
taken place, there no test was required. Now, Sir, I have
stated to the House what appears to me the sound principle
that cught to be adopted in the matter, and 1 have demonstrated
what has been their value and what has been their results.
And really I do say that, considering the experience we have
had of the state of the theoretical sciences, and of society, and
of the different relierious persecutions in Ireland, her Majesty's
Government should have no hesitation in recommending the
establishment and endowment of provincial colleges in Ireland
upon the principles I have stated.—( Hear, hear.) I have now
endeavoured to sketch the outline of the plan, but I have said
nothing of the locality of each university, or of the system of
education to be adopted in the colleges. It would naturally
occur to the mind of any gentleman conversant with the state
of Ireland, that one of the three universities should be , sta-
blished in the south of Ireland, but the particular place we have
not fixed ova. Cork has been spoken of as an eligible place for
the south.--( Hear, hear.) There is an immense population
in that city, and some very important schools exist there at
present—( Hear, hear)—to which there is great facility of
access, and it is surrounded by a dense population ; arid a very
strong feeling has already been expressed by the people of that
city in favour of extended education.—( Hear, hear.)
On
these grounds, then, I would say, that Cork is naturally the
locality that would be selected for the university for the south.
—( Hear, hear.) Then it is not intended to overlook the
west of Ireland, Rod therefore either Limerick or Galway
would be selected as the most convenient locality I,r the west.
—( Hear, hear.) And, then, with respect to the north, it is
a question whether would Belfast or Derry be the roost con-
venient locality for the university for the north.—( Hear.)
I think that taking into account all the circumstances con-
nected with Belfast, that city affords the best facilities for the
northern loeality.—(Hear, hear.) New, of course, we are
not to be understood as pledging ourselves as to what would be
the precise amount of the expense that would attend the coos.
pletion of a Proposition of this sort. But I should say that for
the purposes of building, and fitting up, about39,oool.fur
each university would be sufficient, or about 10 9 0001. for
buildincge theprin
ctihprael
se:
and and spresidest,aerdual expenses of principal
to the
zetehns
oe
wth Governmentcee.alarech ~ 6,0001.,t5e
would recommtelsised
ifoorcothoeola. annual endowment
building,endoCries of
or, including
s
would be about 118,0001.—(
Each college will have ten or twelve professors, witoel,,Aw7ilrl.b"e)
both' at
allowed 3001. a-year each ; and especially,
Belfast, there will be medical schools, to which I attach 4t"
greatest importance; and when I say twelve professors, I he
essors, in-
clude the professors in anatomy, surgery, and pharmacy. It is
our intention, considering that the endowment is to
be made by the Crown, to propose that the pre.
fessors in all the three colleges shall be nominated by the
Crown ; that the Crown shall have not only the power of :mini.
nating, but tht power of removing upon cause shown. I have
always said that while we seek to exclude any undue inter-
ference with religious opinions, security must be taken that the
election of lecturers shall not be thug peculiarly distin-
guished. The circumstances are sidttl that the p4;-,:e7 of

. . ..
certain of being produced throughout the youth of Ireland, by
the competition to which I have referred. The youth of Ire-
land, meeting from their various establishments at a central
point, where they will contend fur honours, to be obtained by
great merit and superior attainments, without any reference ti.
creed arid party distinctions, will produce a most beneficial
trect •:n their common intercourse in future life, wherever
they meet.—(Hear, hear.) It is impossible for any Gentle-
man in this House, who has been in one of our own universi-
ties, not to remember, with sentiments of esteem and respect,
those with whim we contended, and whose superiority to our-
selves we may have reason to recollect. I do not think you will
secure those valuable effects in any other way with certainty,
except by coming together at one point. I admit that it ha.
disadvantages also, because there is great difficulty, and I be-
lieve it is inherent in the system, in obtaining sufficient number
of examiners who are accustomed to habits of teaching and'
giving lectures. This brings me to the question—if you are to
have a separate university, where should it be?—(. Hear, hear.)
I am bound to say that it you come to the conclusion that there
shall be a central university, that it should be in the metropolis
of Ireland. This at once presents a question of great difficulty
which lam resolved not to blink—( Hear, hear.) lam of opi-
nion that it is neither wise nor just to allow any interference
with Trinity College as it at present exists.—( Hear, hear,
from the Ministerial side.) It is strictly of Protestant forma-
tion. It was founded by Queen Elizabeth avowedly for Pro-
testant purposes. These purposes have been clearly mani-
fested from time to time, and it is from that seminary the
Established Church draws its priesthood. We have encoun-
tered much obloquy and made many painful sacrifices, if not of
friendship, at least of the confidence of many ot
our 'supporters, by mamfesting a desire for the education ot
the Roman Catholic priesthood. In proposing a grant to May-
nooth to-night, I announce the intention of the Government
to continue the annual sum, whereby the Presbyterians of the
north will have an opportunity of educating their priesthood.
I find, I repeat, Trinity College endowed by a Protestant Sove-
reign,: avowedly for the purpose of providing ministers for the
established religion in Ireland; and I cannot, under such cir-
cumstances, think it right that that property should be taken
away or disturbed. It is right that I should inform
the House that Trinity College is so interwoven arid
blended by long use and by lung possession with Dub-
lin University, that even if it were expedient to
make a severance, it would be found difficult, if not dangerous,
to do so. And, be it remembered, neither that college nor the
Dublin University were exclusiveiy established. In 1793, tile
memorable year when the elective franchise was given to the
Roman Catholics—when the Relief Act was passed by the Irish
Parliament, a very singular arrangement took place in reference
to Dublin University. I will read for the House a clause of an
Act which was passed at that time for the relief of Roman Ca
thelics. After recounting the preamble, the clause went on tr.
say, " and be it enacted that Irons and after the first day of
June, 1793, it may not be nesessary for any person taking de.
grees usually conferred by said university, to make or subscribe
any declarayion, or take any oath, save the oath of al-
legiance." Letters patent were issued by the Sovereign,
cohfirming and extending these privileges to Roman Catho.
lies. Thus Roman Catholics entering Dublin university
could have no scruples in entering those colleges. They
might take degrees in the university, and partake of all its ad-
vantages—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from Mr. Shiel)
—and when I say all the advantages I except certain emolu-
mentary advantages which this university affords. Now, I
have to call the attention of the House to a matter of the
highest importance, I mean the evidence given by Mr. O'Con •
neil before a Committee of their Lordships' House on this very
point, namely, whether it would be desirable that the Queen's
College, which had at first been instituted and intended solely
fir Protestants, should be opened to Roman Catholics.—(The
Right. Hon. Gentleman then referred to the evidence given by
Mr. O'Connell before a Committee of the House of Lords,
the put port of the answers given by the Honourable
Member for Cork being, that as Trinity College
was intended only for the education of Protestants by
its founders, it would be unfair, if not unjust, to admit Ro•
man Catholics to its privileges. I have not a ward more to
add here.—(Cheers. ) This evidence was given before a
Committee of the House of Loads, and it appears to me con-
clusive on this subject. Now, I must say, that the intention to
force on the Protestants of Ireland the adinissi,n of Raman
Catholics into the Queen's College, is destructive of their
rights of conscience ; it is imagined by them a violation of
the Constitution—a violation which would spread such an alarm
throughout the whole body as would render any measure pro-
posed by Government entirely impracticable ; and, therefore.
it is that the Government du not propose to bring forward
any proposition to this effect. The subject was brought before
the Irish Parlirment in 1797, and certain resolutions were
adopted, among them was one which I will read to the House.
The Right Hon. Gentleman read the resolution to the House,
which was to the effect that the adoption of a second uni-
versity in I• eland was calculated to do the greatest good in that
country. That question did not, however, arise in the pre-
-eta Bill, its only object being to establish three provincial
colleges, and, looking practically to the question, I am disposed
to recommend the measure to the Hoose, as least
open to objection, and practical in execution.—(Hear.)
And now let me say a few words in reference to the Hon.
Member fur Waterford.—( Hear, hear.) Ido say I would in-
deed but ill discharge my duty if I were not to bear to him
the h,mble need of tiny praise for the part he has taken in re-
ference to this question.—(lle4r, hear. ) That lion. Member
has persevered in his advocacy of an extended system of educa-
tion in Ireland, in good report and in evil aeport—( Hear,
heart)—and under circumstances of having against him at one
time an adverse Government; yet lie did his utmost to give
the measure effect, without permitting the interference of any.
ill-feeling towards a Government that did not possess his con-
fidence.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, a course more high-minded
and honourable than that pursued by the Hon. 'Member for
hear)',:laatttieierrffmoorreddri,ern.l..l nX. have been followed by any man—( Hear,
—and
tiw(hihatineeaverre:rht neilataryi.lbs7 fate of this measure, whether
it be
ti rejected or navotrtlnitdiseehdaalllyl never forget tilet s. )arcre
jelpoecr,tsl t 1y iaenodf portion
has
establishing
i think, h inuke, also,to t h that iaitosno.meteamt attention
ifoonr
is due to the 0 •
inion of the Honourable Member,
ader:lfhlueilgmlyesselftion
( Hear, hear.) Before I sit downhLshiala readletter ttohe
toopridni3nio. ofr
to
ithretelliaer:
iun—be:
n
the lien. Member, expressed by

Mr. DUN COM BE said he would beg leave to move that the
petition he presented from Robert Wallace, Esq., last night be
printed, with the votes.—( Laughter. )
Mr. FOX NI A ULE wished to know if the Hon. Member
for Finsbury was really serious in pressing this, with a view to
found a motion upon it ?—( Langhter. )
Mr. DUNCOM BE said it really was his intention to found
a motion upon the petition, but he would promise that it
would not be quite so long as the petition itself.—( Hear, and
laughter.) His motion would be to this effect, that the
petition be referred to a Se!ect Committee, who should inquire
and report to this House upon the prater of the petition, which
was to the effect that the House should inquire how far it was
expedient to discontinue the Railway Department of the Board
of Trade.—( Laughter.) if the !louse should agree to the
printing of the petition, then he would move
the resolution' he had read.--( Hear.) But when he received
the petition he wrote to Mr. Wallace, to say he did not think
the House would do so--(Laughter)—but Mr. Wallace did
not agree with him—(Laughter)—and he appeared to know
those matters better than he did.—( Laughter.) However, as
be ( Mr. Duncoitbe) believed that petitions of this sort were not
usually printed with the votes, he would withdraw it.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY, at the suggestion of the Chancellor
of the Exclaequer, withdrew the motion of which he had given
notice, and which was, that the petition of the churchwardens
of the town and parish of \Vokin,ham, in the counties of Berks
and Wilts, be printed.
IRISH BANKS BILL. _

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite when it was his intention to proceed with the
measure on Banking in Ireland?
Sir ROBERT PEEL sail. that the Bill had been brott:Jit
in and ordered to be printed. As far as the Treasury
business was concerned, he was anxious to proceed with it
aasenn as
possible. He could not state with accuracy the pre-
cise day,•
but he eould say that it would be an early day. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then took the opportunity of saying
that as he was prepared to take estimates on Friday night next
he would, on night, state what particular estimates it was
his intention to take.
PAROCHIAL SETTLEMENT RILL:
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD asked when it was in.
tended to proceed with the Parochial Settlement Bill?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that it was not his inten-
tion to proceed with the Parlll Settlement Bill, which
stood upon the orders of the day for thatLevening, until after
the resolution to be moved by the Noblellio.rd the Member fur
would,th therefore,
London should have been disposed of.
9th of June.
postpone the second reading of that Bill till
As he was about to trespass. upon the indulgence
House somewhat out of order, in bringing forwardenea annf the
portant motion, be would, if the House chose, at down,
the public petitions had been presented.—(No, no. Go "t)ll
ACADEMICAL INSTITUI lONS (IRELAND).on.
Sir. J. GRAHAM, who had resumed his seat for ain
gam, then rose, and addressed the Houseas follows:—Sir,
collecting that it is the disposition of the House that I should
at once proceed, I will now address you, though net at very
great length, on the subject of the motion which stands in ray
name on the books of the House, and in so doing it is not
any intention to trespass long upon the attention of the
House. I shall not dilate either upon the importance or
upon the difficulty of the subject which I am about to bring
under your notice, not that I am disposed to underrate either
its importance or its difficulty; neither will the House under-
rate its importance when I state that the object of the motion is
the improvement of the social condition of the people
of Ireland; nor will they underrate its difficulty when I
state that the means suggested by her Majesty's Government
for the improvement of that social condition, consist in diffus-
ing the benefits of education among the middle and higher
classes in Ireland. Sir, in dealing with this subject of edu-
cation, it cannot be concealed, .n fact experience has
demonstrated that religious differences eonstitute the great
difficulty in the way of the establishment of any genet al system
of education. In Ireland certainly this difficulty is not of the
arunsfe.baracter as that which we have had to deal
with Iti'• England.-;-(llftr, hear.) We have not in
they country tha---lasne different modifications of
religious opinions which we have in England. Still in that

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 1845.

peth. The flight lion. Baronet then pros ceded to real the
(titre's', which was to the effect that he (`lr. Wyse) trusted he
had placed befere his Lordship the true character and bearing
of this case, and the necessity of establishing a series of pro-
vincial calleges in Ireland, and at the conclusion "lie Mon.
Member said that. t• for his part, sensible as he was how very
little attentioretie opinion was entitled to, still he would say,
that this would be the greatest boon that could be left behind
by any Government "—( Hear, hear. ) 'This is the Ho-
nourable Member's opinion on this important ques-
tion, and I fully agree with him. I am decidedly
of opinion that if the House should give its sanction
to this proposition, it will be a measure that wil: be most
favourable to Ireland, in a moral and social point of view,
upon the condition of the people of that c ountry.—( Hear. )
It will have the effect of increasing order, peace, and virtue in
Ireland, which should be the great *Tete of all civil govern-
ments.—( Hear, hear.) I was taunted with my want of
success in proposing a measure of this sort on a former occasion.
I am aware of my inability, as an advocate, to deal with a
question of such importance. I call upon the House to give
this measure their general support and co-operation, without
reference to religious or political distinctions that may exist in
Ireland. I have endeavoured to state both fully and fa rly the
na ure of the measure. I have nit left out any particle of the
case. I have stated all the difficulties which exist w its: a -trict
o nse of justice and propriety. I have nothing more to say
than to thank the House for the patience with which it has
attended to me, and to move for leave to bring in a 13:11 to
otsoble her Majesty to endow colleges for the advancement of
education in Ireland.
The motion being put,
Mr. WYSE said that he was aware that it would be im-
proper to press upon the attention of the House any observa-
iens upon the object of her Majesty's Government, but, as he
was for a long time connected with the discussion cf this ques-
tion, he might be permitted to make a few observations upon
the various parts of the measure which had been submitted to
them. He thought it was unwise and dangerous to the social
condition of this country to grant so much money for the edu-
cation of the lower classes without n eking equal provissons fur
the education of the middle and higl er castes of the commu-
nity. 'the improvement of the }resent system over the old
was quite manifest, and it was ro little satisfaction to know
that, not only were there a large number of children educated
in these national schools, but the education given to them was
infinitely superior to that which the country had previously
given to them. Hitherto, the chief obstacle in the way of ex-
tending this system of education was the religious differences
which existed in Irelend, but he was rejoiced to say that
these obstacles were gradually melting away. —( Hear, hear.)
He considered that, along with elementary schools, there ought
to be intermediate sells) As bet ween them and the colleges,
somewhat analogous to the grammar schools in this country.
Such schools, it' established, would be best calculated to supply
ails pupils the proposed universities or colleges. The Go-
vernment had given its assent to 32 model schools for Ireland.
arid it would rest with the Board of Education to give to them
proper efficiency, in carrying out the object for which they
were instituted. After alluding to the great necessity of care
being taken, in the educational institutions about to be esta-
blished, that Le religious intolerance, or religious sectarianism,
should be allowed to interfere with the primary ends for which
they were instituted, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to show
'he importance of giving to these schools an industrial ch
sateen 'Tilty might to be put in possession of a more superior
character in this respect, than any they now had. There
ought to be an organisation in each of the col-
'egos, dependant upon the particular localities in which
they were established, and in each of them there should be
be a mining department for training the youth in a knowledge
If the important branches connected with the mineral kingdom,
and through which mini-g and geological explorations could be
undertaken throughout Ireland. There ought also to be an in-
dustrial museum established in Dublin, in which there could be
collected every kind of specimen, whether mineral or otherwise,
for the information of the student, anti under whose superin-
tendence those geological exp ditions could be conducted. By
tl,e.e means the young men could be trained in civil engineering,
end be made to acquire habits of industry, energy, and perse-
verance, and be made conversant nit's, the most useful and im-
portant branches of practical science. Through these arrange-
ments a substantial middle c'ass might be formed in that
country, and a great amount of general good diffused. In ad-
dition to a central museum in Dublin, large museums ought
also to be established in other parts of the country,
not only for the use of the students of the colleges,
but accessible to the inhabitants, in connexion with
which there might he carefully selected libraries. For
these purposes her Majesty's Government should give
mainlines and afford ti.e nucleus of each establishment, leaving
their extens:on and improvement to the liberality of the
public. He would not go into the payment of professors,
though he considered, as those colleges were to be establish-
ments for the public at large, the system of lodging and
hoarding shon'd not be allowed to become a system of profit
end abuse on the part of the heads of those establishments.
No observe' ion had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet re-
pecting what remedies he intended to be applied against those
ello might engage in theological discussion, whether they
acre to be paced in the hands of the superiors of the col-
leges, or to proceed direct from the Government itself.
Without some efficient arrangement of this sort, lie was satis-
fied the colleges would dwindle into mere places of popular
lecturing, and the Government be under the necessity of
suppressing them altogether, or else entirely remodelling
them. Ile thought that, ultimately, a greater number of col-
leges ought to be established in the country than the
three proposed at Belfast, Cork, and Galway, though he
considered that number would suffice for the present. lie was
of opinion that Galway, Cork, and Belfast, were judiciously
selected as the sites of the three Colleges proposed, but in ad-
ditien he considered there should be one established at Dublin.
He did not mean that it should be established in opposition to
the University of Dublin, but as an industrial seminary for the
accommodation of that part of the country. He a. a Roman
Catholic, was as pleased at seeing institutions endowed for the
education of Protestants or Presbyterians, as he was at the
support given for the College of Maynooth. His only regret
was, that the sums to be applied for these purposes was not
large enough. With regard to the constitution of these semi-
naries, he should like to see an aggregation of them, something
like to the University of London, which was made up of a num-
-I.er of colleges, and it might be called the University of Ireland.
He was of opinion that sooner or later such a course would
have to be adopted. With regard to any competition that
might be supposes! to arise between this University of Irelind
and the Unisersity of Dublin, he did not apprehend much fear.
Such competition he considered would not be very successful.
The University of Dublin was an old and much respected semi-
nary of learning, and had a prestige arid a name to suppert it,
which a new institution could not hope to have.
By the Act of 1793, to which the, Right Hon. Baronet had
referred, the principle had been fully laid down that Trinity
College in Dribble should be opened to both Roman Catho-
tee and Protestants. The opening of the Dublin University
'o all these parties would only be extending the Act of 1793.
At present the University of Dublin was under the govern-
ment of its fellows, and he saw no reason why this principle
of government should not he extended, so that in the ag-
eregation of colleges throughout Ireland their members
should hive the power of management. The carrying out
of the proposed principle need give no alarm to Protestants,
Presbyterians, or 1101118,(1 Catholics, for it would only be carrying
out the intention orate foundation of Elizabeth,which was brought
fermi:m(las an act of justice to the Roman Catholics, fur the
educational institutions they had been deprived of at the period
of the Reformation. Trinity College was by no means one of
an exclusively ecclesiastical character, but it was said May-
nooth was exclusively confined to Catholics, and, therefore, it
was urged that the Dublin University ought to be exclusively
confined to Protestants. His answer, however, to this was,
that the Dublin University eras not solely an ecclesiastical
foundation, but it was an ecclesiastical and lay foundation. In
his opinion. therefere, the college ought to be thrown open
alike to Catholics as well as Protestants. Now, he would let
the Dublin University have the control of all those
colleges, and he thought the present state of the
university spas favourable to the adoption of such
was
gli'veightihYat intellectual tone and temper to their calculated to draw out the energies of
he p
a plan. 'The measure of the Government, if properly
carried
e.
le,
and
minds which had been so long wanted. In future years, Go-
vernment might depend upon it, their present policy would
enable the Irish people to contribute to the wealth and in-
fluence of this country. and there could be no doubt this mea.
sure would leave grateful recollections in the minds, if not of
the present race, at least of those who should come after them.
Also ROSS expressed his great gratification at the state-
ment of the Right lion. Baronet, and confessed that it would
'4o far to remove the differences which had for some time existed
in the College of Belfast. The proposition, he was sure,
could give universal satisfaction to the people of Ireland.
Mr. BELLEW agreed with the Hon. Member fur Waterford
that it was extremely desirable that a second university should
be established in connexion with Trinity College, for the ad-
mission of persons of all religious denominations, without in-
terfering with the rights of that institution. With respect to
the principle of endowing colleges in the manner proposed by
she Government, he begged to craw the attention of the
House to the opinion of the Catholic clergy on this subject.
Ile Catholic !clergy to a man were opposed to any State en-
lowment as far as they themselves were concerned, but nothing
would be more acceptable to theist than endswments for the
education of the people.
Mr. T. 13. ROCHE was glad the Government had
brought this meerure forward, because it weuld act as a safe-
guard against revolutionary outbreaks, tie wat a repealer,
but nevertheless as much opposed to the undue invasion of
democracy as he was to the undue domination of an aristoseraey.
It slit not strike his mind that this grant of 18,0001. a year, and
100,001)1. was sufficiently comprehensive. It did not go half
ar enough. It was not systematic, because there was no con-
necting link between the rational system and this collegiate
education. He thought that there should either be a second
university in Dublin:, or they should throw open the one which
already existed. It was proposed to establish 32 model schools,
but the funds for them were to be taken out of the funds ap•
propriated for the national system of educations. 'this was
raking away the funds which were appropriated for the educa-
tion of the poorer classes, in order to give an elementary edu•
cation to the middle classes. But he was ready to acknowledge
that the measure, so far as it went,
hope for Ireland.--( Hear.)
Sir It. INGLIS said, that though the was one of promise and of
principle' involved
in the present measure was one of universal and paramount
Importance, he was desirous of hearing the Members irons
Ireland express their opinions urn it before he delivered his
esen. The principle of the measure seas one, however, not
et Irish interests, but of imperial and national importance.
Did he rightly understand his Right Hon Friend to say, that
there was to be no distinct religious instruction in the in-ti-
tutions which in the name of her Majesty he now proposed to
the House ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Those cheers ac-
knowledged the accuracy of his impression. There was then
to be no religious instruction in those colleges. Ile would
ask the Right lion. Gentleman opposite, who was, perhaps,
better acquainted with the history of education than any
elember of that House—(Mr. Wyse)—whether he could
point out a single instance in the history of England, in
whirls a national Institution connected with education had
been endowed by the State, except upon the principle of an Es-
tablished Church, whether that were the Church of Rome
or the Church of Scotland, or the Established Episcopacy of this
country ? There was no instance of well an institution which
was riot !sued on religion, which was the great and important
interest of this life, because it was the promise of their eternal
happiness in the next. Never till this 9th of May, 1'345, had
en attempt been made to establish such an institution. He
knew that there were two such instances in this country, but
he might call them. amateur institutions, established according
to the peculiar taste of cert. in individuals. One of those was
the London University, which he
heard, indeed, called by an
ether name.— ( A laugh.) But those weirs not instances in
point. Little did he believe, twenty years ago, that a measure
like the present would emanate from the present Government,
or that the principle it involved would receive their sanction.
He knew that his Right Hon. Friend would not sanction such
a principle in his Gvi'n Tamil and if so, he did not see why he
should adopt it for those who were equallV Under hie controul,
and for whom he (Sir R. Inglis) held that he
was equally responsible.—( Hear, hear. ) He did not
even know if moral philosophy was to be taught in those in-
stitutions which were to be established in Ireland; but what
y,
was the value of moral philosophy if not based on:religion ?
A more gigantic scheme of Godless education was never pro-
pined in any country. And was it not the boast, or, at all
events, 'the .disinnctiee merit claimed for the: measure by hi.
Right Hon Friend, that 'ellme institutions Were to be without
toe word of God? He would not go into the details of the
measure, because when the principle of the measure erns so
bad, the d stalls be.sarne. coraparatively unimportant ; but from
the plaudits with which certain parts of his Right lion. Friend's
speech were received by Host. Gentlemen opposite, he thoeght

that his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of
Dubli❑ had reason to apprehend that it would shake the foun-
dations of that Protestant University. When the Right Hon.
Gentleman referred to the opinions of Mr, O'Connell, he
heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Alt,niber for Dungar-
von (Mr. SiLiel) say, in an audible whisper, that this was
long ago, and though he admitted that opinions might and
ought to change—( Hear)--yet an opinion like that qaoted by
his Right Hon. Friend, which, indeed, was more a promise
that he would use no influence to disturb that insti-
tution, than an opinion—ought not to be allowed. —( Hear. )
They had always deprecated those loose principles of educa-
tion. He entirely differed from the measure of the Govern-
ment—he never could consent to make himself a party to mea-
sures of such a character. He believed the present measure
to be founded on an absolute disregard of tho,e principles which
they had hitherto cherished. He believed the measure to be
subversive of the best interests of Christianity. Never till now
had they been call,td upon to provide a system of education
not only without religion, but throwing religion entirely over-
board. He did not, however, feel himself called upon to
divide the House on the present occasion ; but he would, on a
subsequent stage, raise his voice, if it were to be a solitary
one, against a Bill, the very foundation and principles of which
he believed to be defective.

Mr. SHEIL then rose and said—Sir, the Hon. Baronet
who has just sat down called it " a gigantic scheme of God-
less education," a phrase which certainly has been
more unscrupulously used than almost any other,
and which seems much misapplied as regants the proposition of
the Government to establish in Ireland these colleges for the
instruction of the higher and classes there. I thought
that the clear and perspicuous stateme•it of the Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which he
referred the disastrous failure of every attempt to propagate in
Ireland education on the exclusive principles of the religion of
the Church of England, must have convinced the Hon. Baronet
that in this experiment it was useless to persev, re. If any-
thing could be made perceptible to the mind of the Hon. Gen-
tieman—if anything could force conviction on his mind, and
even in despite of the inveteracy with which lie cherishes his
opinions—these notorious facts would have forced that convic-
t' on. He said there was no former instance of a State under-
taking the education of a reople without connecting with it a
religious system. The Hon. Baronet seemed to have forgotten
the system of national education in Iceland.—(hear.) The
original plan was often pressed on the attention of the House
by my lion. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse)
to whom the credit of its system belongs, although, until this
eveniiez, I never heard a Minister of the Crown make the ail-
snis-ion. The whole of the plan introduced by the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley) was one
condensation of suggestions thrown out from time to time by
my Hon. Friend, whose reward is confined to his own breast,
which might admit of the highest order of reward.—( Hear.)
This system of national education, I repeat, has been sanc-
tioned and established by the Government.—(Sir B. Inglis
gave signs of dissent) - Does the Hon. Baronet dispute in the
the teeth of the fact ?
Sir R. INGLIS—(as we understood him)—it was not an
Endowment.

Mr. SHEIL—ShaII we dispute about the word " endow-
ment"—shall we go into sophistications and learned subtleties ?
The Hon. Baronet is a member of a scholastic institution, and
brings from it with him distinctions which rather belong to
refined dialectics. There is no real, substantial distinction be-

twcen a grant made every year and an endowment, but the
latter has the great advantage of avoiding disputes and contro-
versies, of which we have recently had such Lamentable in-
stances.— ( Hear, hear.) In one point of view, strange to way,
I coincide with the lion. Baronet. I mean with respect to the
necessity of religious instruction—l think it is unfortunate that
the Right Hon Gentleman has not devised some means. I will
yet trust to the ingenuity of the Right Hon. Gentleman to pro-
vide some means by which the reproach may be re-
moved that no religious instruction of any kind is to
be given in these establishments. The object is,
of course, to make • this measure acceptable to the great
body vf the people and to those who have great weight
and influence among them, I mean the Roman Catholic priest-
hood, to conciliate whose feelings you are evidently anxious.
The great body of the Roman Catholic priesthood will com-
plain that no means have been adopted for the purpose of con-
veying religious instruction in those colleges, and my Hon.
Friend made, I think, a very useful suggestion that, hereafter,
individuals might be allowed to grant, fur the purpose of en-
dowing a chair of divinity, if they thought proper. The sug-
gestion seemed to have been adopted by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, but such a matter ought not to be left, I said not
say to caprice, but to the casual discretion, respecting the ex-
ercise of which we cannot with any confidence predicate. I
tell you that the Roman Catholic clergy will object to your
plan on this ground. I have here a pamphlet, written by a
gentleman of high talents, a personal friend of my own, who is
professor in the Catholic College of Thurles, which was esta-
blished by a Roman Catholic Archbishop, who bequeathed to
it 20.000/., which he earned hard in the seminary of Uiver-
stone in this country. Dr. Lahey is the author of the pamphlet
to which I allude—the ablest man in the college. He is of opi-
n:on that there ought to be a separate system of education
where practicable., but be says a " mixed system of education is
better than none, but with a mixed system of education, reli-
gious instruction is compatible." Religious instruction
is given to the lower classes in Ireland under the
present system of education there. Merman Catholic priests
attend at the schools for the purpose of giving religious instruc-
tion, and Protestant cler,:ymen are likewise at liberty to do se.
Certain houses are there allocated for the purposes of religious
instruction, and every facility is offered to those who attend to
administer such instruction. I should think the same facilities
nuisht to be given here— ( Hear, hear. from Sir J. Graham)—
and that it should be made imperative on those in the establish-
ments to attend some place of religious worship. —( No, no.) I
can see no objection. I think it is a very reawriaVe request.
You may say you cannot apply the public money to religious
education, and I admit that difficulties have been thrown in the
way of such a pi opo.ition on a late occasion which may well
discourage any Government. But a middle course may be
adopted, and I should very much regret that no religious in-
struction was to be given in those colleges. 1 think the Ca-
tholic bishops in their particular districts ought to see that re-
' ligiiius instruction was given to those members of his faith who
were in that college. I am sure it would be his duty, and I see
no sort of reason why he should not.
Sir J. GRAHAM—There is nothing to prevent them.
Mr. SUET'. —I own that I desire Cf.at means sere taken to

promote the eocial and religious peace of -Iredm
t.Nioot,
sli Rat.
,i Ol
Ireland.ln E u
was to make the institutions of the country hat'
the people'
monise with the religious feelings of
roi'lede'lrlaasndsohaddefiacipeloipt
Ireland, and she had three universities ; Prussia,
pulation of thirteen and a half millinns, had eight univelas: ,
cities ; Bavaria, with a population nearly four millions, h.°
three institutions of this kind ; in France there wag one uln.!-
versity to every million and a half of the population: Vi'lll
uoiaftiaocaadneemaryyl
equlttsatiii
t;
Ireland had only one to eight million.. There ought to be
„at
least five or six instead of one for such lation as Irela" -
a popu .. .
He •
aas persuaded that many of the evils of Ireland hadn
arisen from the want of education, and
tiotenicsekettiveh'iGitsiFioraysieelrn'td.itc,. ,
ment proposition should have his hearty support. It shout,:
command his warmest support, as he looked upon it at.
measure well calculated to improve the condition of Irelan I .
Mr. ACLAND rose to defend the Hon. Member fortinees
University of Oxford; (Sir Robert Inglis) from the att forth-
University
Bath.which had e b(7inr. mAaderanudp)onwhasimwbiyllinthge Hon. 3
of the blame attached to his Right HOU.
in his charging the Government proposition as a " gig_an,„, t
scheme of Godless education." He was not prepared to a" tit
the words his of Hon. Friend, hut in the spirit he was agie;uo
He believed the Government were perfectly holiest in three''n
which they had brought forward, for he had never seen ,:,,
to think them otherwise in any part of their genetal cove
ci_
lemberkafste
but he regretted that they had not paid mote attention ti.) 1
religious feeling, of the country, and acted less in a liberal "ii,
latitudinarian spirit. At present he was not prerared te g.t`eht,
decided opinion on the measure, but he promised togive it
patient attention and consideration. He sympathised i°
1)7
twhieihßtuhLs,oiuctiadtha(n)ldicpmraecattiheearlsvwiehw(st thhaadt
shradkebneen eaPres • -,
than in the liberal views of the other support::: othletqhueel-"IFea";
sure. He sioutited the soundness of the principle of edue:_i7
students of different religious persuasions together in one ell
nary, and was of opinion that more good would be done 11,
each religious persuasion having a collage of its 0•"P' that '
was further of opinisn that a system of mere lectures likewiatii
proposed could scarcely be considered education, Dossers,"
rather lead to what Coleridge had called .'Lecture,of •
and', little toe aids the 'effectual education of the peoPie
IreLo
land.
rd PALMERSTON said lie was glad to finds that t,ket ,
Government had proposed the present measure is hebselTd
they bad done, and, considering the state of Ireland,' test
nos think that they could proceed in any other way tear' ,to
which they did. It was objected that no professors tv,,e,rookt
be appointed to teach certain theological opinions. "0 he
they establish one professorship ot theology ? If en"' wo that
to be a Protestant professor ? And if so, did they suPP,- 01-
the Roman Catholics would send their Children to th°--to he
lcges ?—( Hear, hear.) If the professor of theology Wail en
a Roman Cathode, did the • suppose that the Pretestaivii ea
the other hand, would sendY their children there?---1( . r6S
hear.) Would they have professors of both re)4l::r.)
what became of the system of mixed education:--;.k.,,,s bY
That would defeat the design of cementing the tyre reng'''ol the
relations of mutual harmony, which was the ohPeti tab-
measure.—( Hear. ) A theological civil war would 1)11,,,e. he
lished in those colleges and universities, instead 01 t''' c,s,--
coming, as was expected, the foundation of religious Peatit,se
(Laughter.) There is no other alternative but that other,
should be no theological professor of one creed Or the its
but that both parties should receive theological instruc the'hat
academies exclusively devoted to theological Purrs:i miles ,
was the only mode in which they could procee Qd to-
they could have the students lodged and h;tteh a
gether, as in Oxford and Cambridge, but "test it
system would entail such an amount of expenditure t toed
would be out of the question to think that Parliau"n of bah
incur it.--( Hear, hear.) He had himself experieeee, Ejio
systems, because he was three years at the university 00.uid be •
burghs where the same system was adopted which :di "est
adopted in respect of the Irish colleges ; and he after9wed. Aesl
to Cambridge, where a different system was Pnr atheological
when persona talked of those colleges not having nrsit
chair, he would appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman Lord
the Chancellor of the Exciteuer, who was with lii"ilaio to :
Palmerston) in Cambridge, to have the goodness to et alLire in
the House w hat was the kind of theological edticataiold:l"o,o,)
their time was given at Cambridge.—( Hear, hear, " cident
°f
Why it was well known that those who, from the ae. cortaie
their birth, were entitled to the degree of M.A. at o', it arse
age, were not examined in theology. If that wa' st Mil:
taking somewhat too large a 1 berty with espreesiontsheet
ropes
nate those colleges theological schools, standing in therefor's:
on the same footing as Cambridge. lie' lan phi
'
thought that Government adopted the only P, Ireland'
was applicable to the peculiar circumstances of
at moral
and he hailed it as the foundation, first of all, of the grend as 111°
improvement in the middle classes of the Irish peoPle,;(gthe diffe' '
foundation of social concord between the members that
004.
rent creeds who composed the population 1 th only the
But he agreed with those who thought that this sre_S,bs ee that ,
foundation of a more complete plan. He thought. e"_ nuelitst
the three colleges should be united in one university
streloaesis
or that Trinity College should be thrown open ir! distioeSi°
which he thought might be done without losing_ itatatighter•sl
character as an exclusively Protestant college.S 0 it "'
The present measure would be incomplete en,eart Kesel
combined combined with some arrangement of this kind.-0 a, rbOUI
It would be a matter of regret to him if this mess t iiite the
meet with any considerable opposition. It seas ":),igl
t !
Nlaynooth grant, where certain religious objectiontto (0. ite
urged against it, but it was a measure Whie4 ,sits of hie! .
object the education and instruction of the Catholi:tro4usght Iv
latid, and if it met with any material oppositie",',./2 Irish People
e
effect it would produce upon the minds of L"' , , t
would be most iejurious to this country'. „,,,;,hea 1° `u
The CH A NCEL LOR of the EXCHEQVr''' wise
the Noble Lord right with regard to one of his
„„nesred stoit
which was not quite so correct as the Noble Lovely Universals
think. The Noble Lord had sated that at the ',),`
the case •
oCfaisitiubdried,fte wnhoothdeiodlongoictapl
reoxpoamst,ntiaaktito4 tlolllnbleeacerl;,inor.o.se far
n that
from this being the case, he could assure the Nehletion, of Ile
talGisiiNi,sei:ll.),:r.eai.l.ilt.e.tiNc,,,xv.i:Acligub
in every instance students were examined Wee Prn.-I
it events,.. thew°.
nation,l
NhLocfllybtTo ro.,..i.eNer
se r,pet:iersimnbtocer ec do7t
sshieadtto,,rf
easitifi.e;_ t:itre who 0 •,.-
t:
hi doty t°
MBE said he had felt it to be --.8, he Os
oppose the Government on the Ilaynooth grant, be"suse"'his ines
averse to all connexion between Church and State. ' and :11 •
sus e, however, was solok of an educational character', if trie'
it eppeared to him highly' calculated to benefit all alter', cif
support.—Leave givengis•e ttohehriGh ovienrnthmeltii2:o4
to,
g
SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER:IIO &Coe"
the :speaker do leave the chair for the House goi"g `n-
toy d Ut
yesterday,
C O
HouseNl l
attentionhe i‘pirre.
presented
, do •
mit tee of Supply. esllil,. Is
BE
on'
(eit'whe ehwt Itii ethht iwtaiaovrs ti e wponifr
iinEfvt IB:lh:24°3yr shortly
tif tteihe eget
tl:i
eesr!ia!
that morning. He had since made inqinries Int°, t say t`_,7,,
tions contained its the petition, and he regretted
r°thee r,,,, ,
they were substantially correct. The Hon. Menthheavo alresty,
appeapteeadretdheinciTtahliemss,t,ann.caensd o f
concludedth e pet i t
bi oyn , which a. an °West
ment to the motion of the Chancellor ot the ts°,rhe s ~
the petition be referred to a Select Committee. ..
and the e'i '
Committee having power to report their opinion o
°I '
denee to the House. too or
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, in c°"setfoo. 6,1 he
man opposite, he instituted an inquiry
notice which he had already received from the - ases a" be
into the e
out t 7,01
part's true. It was highly improper in
found that the all- gallons which were made tun!' grate t° .aer
the tnag' • ee a els '
t• Is' vile
a warrant when the proper course would be
_as a sos
mons. At all events, he thought the offence ^ v „Ilse old
one, sad he did not think that issuing a* etinoo
_ce,
a proper course. The statement of the. rat vois.,l,
the statement of the magistrate were entirell, *to be tee
and he thought that the matter ought 000'cosoirt• t had',
lowed to rest as it was. Further inquiry was nfoon ogee
'
thought that the lion. Gentleman and others, 0 well . '
Pr
been stated, would think it highly inexpedient t 0 ota ,
matter further in the House. 1,,d to bear sien• ,
Mr. WAKLEY said that he should be g r,o RIP"' t. los ,
answer from Mr. Briscoe, the magietrate, to te ,nforree Dips
Gentleman opposite. The brutal conduct of the he refes
act on the request of the woman,
owing to the misconduct of the magistrate, Whe_nn, eetin„tmer
mitted in his presenoe, but at the request 0 go emedoct
issued a warrant for the woman's
allowedapprehensio och loin
conceive a more gross case, and if they _...., have _t, be
on the part of the magistrate what would tO;Jgre corre:ip 0
constable? If the allegations of the woman eats rein
thought that the magistrate should not be all°el her n"
the Bench. bat furt is ye
Mr. DUNCOMBE—As it hail been stated t itilara
to 7
quiry would be instituted, he begged lea" , •
amendment which he had proposed. terneris
an assault low( ethe ini,,,i
oat
THE MEDICAL BILL. _ of e sta rivet
136.' •
Mr. WAKLEY said that, iu cosseequeni cte:t Kepi aiat.
made the other night, he would ask the IlVational As as. ,
if he would say that the Committee of the
„el; 0, incr sad ;
Lion had been Wormed of the terms on whi .in the 11' ' •
tion would be eounected with his measure! 0
whether he had their consent to these er°l46l°notions
Sir J. GRAHAM did not understand
the qu
Mr. WAKLEY then repeated it. .onee 0
tbe
' t utskinfi in-
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he did net res, , if the ~,,.. •
statement to which the lion. Member re refrel•l' could erl'''
Gentleman would put it in a form in which he I aril
eves c'e id
stand it, he would answer it. tion - 0- i
Mr. WAKLEY said he thought the ques
twin
ow .
put on both occasions. (f the Right Hon. Gen ho es.°
not ,ed
state that the charter of incorporation would I°' •
snort, Ile would not say anything about it. la, sod
The House then went into Committee of 5t114)., e ail ,
a sum of 50,0001, on account for the public •
_, 0,
p_s
ordrat °log W
The Hoes° then resumed, and the other
were then disposed of, and the House adjourn.
ste3
ue
Twelve o'clock'
eiii—es--.----•----"""""ese"*"'"-
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MR. D'ISRAELI'S ANEW 11 ORIC.--- " - sntio7,, in J
to state that ', Sybilthe I:w° ingshP rt.- 0(
B. D'lsraeli, Esq., M.P., author of ' ellr. calbno'sall
volt., p• iiit 8 vo., ii published this a.y bY
nosy be 1,0 :'4(..t.
Great Marlb3rough-street, and miY
~vit. 1 forri. Ire'
Lo ,ksellers, and at all the libraries. •Atsben-rgh ; tu
laud, Messrs. Bell and Bradfute, Edin nos 9,
land, Mr. John Cumasing, Dublin. tooosceli cria%
SPLENDID ARRANGEMENT or aso hew lin old •
producing the effect of a long arcade, Elloroon or
as to cause a doubt whether You are ill „
Rome. di 10 Pil°*rroof
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This unique apartment is devoted to "Sting a b°' st.
ins the hair in, and with another haviniii osiiieg6.4
view of Naples, sees on the ground-110°r' 0 SollitheY
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country, nor Object to customers ae1,1_15,b5 ci,,..'„ bruised'ru t
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enforce it.—(No, no.) Well, I am anxious that your plan
should succeed, though I sec much i❑ it that is imperfect. I
am anxious, for that purpose, to take means to conciliate those
who have paramount influence in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
You made great mistake: about the Charitable Bequests Bill—
mistakes which I foresaw and warned you of. I told you you
committed a great error in not consulting the Roman Catholic
Bishops. You consulted them on the slaynooth Bill, and you
succeeded. 1 now warn you again, thit you must obtain their
support to make this plan work efficiently. Having said thus
much with respect to apart of the plan, I cannot help expres-
sing my regret that the present condition of the University of
Dublin is not modified. The Right Hon. Baronet has not told
us whether he intends to affiliate the proposed colleges with the
Dublin University. He referred to the 23d sect, of the Aet
by which fellowships were reserved exclusively for Protestants ;
but there is a very important section in that Act, to which I
will call the attention of the House, which has not been di-
rected to it. The A.rt contains an express provision
that there may be another college subsequently founded in
connexion with Dublin College. A distinction must be ob-
served between Dublin College and Dublin University. The
Act of 1793, I say, provides that another college may be esta-
blished imcannexion with the Dublin one, which other was to

forma part of it. Ti.us we may see, at once, that in 1793,
when Rotnau Catholics were ltss powerful than they are now,
that even then it was contemplated to establish a college to
which Roman Catholics and Protestants should have ready
access, and which would be placed in conjunction with Trinity
College. Trinity College, Dublin, as it at present stands, is
a great obstruction in the way of earning out a just, equitable,
and liberal policy towards the people, of Ireland. The Right
Hon. Baronet adverted to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell;
but it must be recollected that that evidence was given under
a very different state of circumstances to those which at pre-
sent exist—when the Irish Catholics were treating for a re-
moval of the disabilities which affected them. At the very
same time that this evidence had been given, it
was proposed by Lord FranCis Egerton to endow
the Roman Catholic priesthood, and if this had
been then done, tie Protestant university would have been
allowed to remain undisturbed. You should not now refer

with a country where the great majority of the people professed
Roman Catholic principles—persons in the very utmost degree
opposed to the doctrines of the Established Church.
And they proposed to give the persons professing that religion
the opportunity of receiving the same academical education.
And they proposed to do this by establishing three distinct
colleges in different parts of the country. its the north they
proposed to build one of these colleges, where it might be ex-
pected that the benefits of the establishment would accrue to
the members of the Presbyterian Church. • They proposed
.also, in the south and west of Ireland, to found institutions
peculiarly applicable to the stecessitiee of the Roman Catholic
population. His Hon. Friend had said that he objected to this
measure, because it did not make religious instruction a necessary
part of the education of the people. He conceived that it was
incumbent upon them as a Protestant Government to
maintain the integrity of the Queen's College in Dublin,
but he could not concur in the policy which the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) advocated of laying
down certain rules prohibiting the inlet ference of Government
with the youth of Ireland. If they attempted to attach weight
to any system of national education, they must study the re
ligious bias of the people, before they could hope to overcome
the prejudices of the country. But his Hon. Friend asked
him why he did not supply theological instraction also? Here
he must give credit to his lion. Friend for the consi.tency he
evinced in opposing the grant to iNlaynooih, for when they
proposed to supply education through that institution the R:ght
Hon. Baronet opposes it, anti said that it was opposed to the
principles of true religion. He regretted to hea- the Right on.
Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon state that they ought
to have consulted the Roman Catholic ',relates of Ireland
before they had definitely arranged their. glans with re-
spect to these educational establishments. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman might not he aware shat they had done so in
proposing this grant for the purposes of Roman Catholic in-
struction. The Right lion. Gentleman had complained that
they (the Government) had not consulted them en this occa-
sion, and that in consequence the Government measure would
certainly fail. If they had consulted the Roman Cat hallo Pt elates,
he did not see that they were not bound to consult the ecclesias-
tical authoriiies of England also. Ard he would vete ure to say
that if they had done so, it would be impossittle to reduce
to practise any general system of education. They ft:mid that
in the neighbourhood of Cork, Galway, and Limerick, there
were no means of educational instruction existing, and the Go-
vernment intended to supply .hat deficiency. They intended
to found professorships in the different walks of science, of art,
and of literature, and they would endeavour to provide the
means for establishing a medical seheol in the same lieselity.
But if they endeavoured to endow a Protestant 1 rofe sor in a
locality purely Catholic, it might with justice be demateted
that they should endow a Roman Catholic professor al.°. He
had hoped that the arrangement tacitly agreed 10, would leave
been decided on by either party. They would be willing to
allow everything for what they considered •the advantage of
either religion. They intended to provide apartments for those
young persons who received religious instruction from profes-
sors of divinity, from clergymen connected with the religion of
each pupil. When his Honourable Friend the Member
for the University of Oxford called this measure a
gigantic scheme of 'Godless education, he (Sir R. Peel) would
prove to his Hon. Friend that he had for twenty years been a
party to a precisely similar system. He ( Sir it. Inglis) had
supported the institution of Belfast, which had been conducted
on exactly the same principles, and which had met the support
of many of the highest parties in the empire, as the Bishop of
Down and Cashel, the Bishop of Dunmore, and the
Marquis of Downshire. He had no doubt that if
the Hume passed this measure. it would be the
very best means of affordtng peace to Ireland, by instituting a
reciprocal course of charity, which would go far to bring about
that happy result,
Mr. SHEIL explained that he . had rot been aware that
apartments would be provided lor divinity lectures, and this
certainly made a very considerable difference. The circum-
stance of such accommodation being provided would give great
satisfaction.

Mr. SH AW said he did not mean to occupy the time of the
house but for a ♦ery short period ; but on a question of this
sort, when the name of the institution which he represented
had been intioduced, and so frequently referred to, he thought
he was called upon to make a few observations. He was happy
to observe that a measure like this, coining from the present
Government, had been so well received by the opposite party;
and though lie did not entirely approve of the measure, yet
he did not rise for the purpose of saying that he would oppose
the introduction of the measure. lie agreed with the
Honourable Member for Bel‘ast, that this would be
a most useful and beneficial measure for Ireland ;
for, in the southern district. of that country, the middle-classes,
who were Roman Catholic, would have then all the facilities of
a liberal education, while the middle•clasres in the north, who
were Presbyterian, would have placed within their reach the
enjoyment of a like advantage. But he should confess that,
with regard to the question of religious education, that pre-
sented such a difficulty that he could not well see his way
through it. In Trinity College, Dublin, persons of all reli-
gious denominations were admitted there for educational pur-
poses, and there was no necessity imposed for the residence of
the pupils in the college, for they received their religious in-
structions from their parents or guardians, or those with whom
they might happen to be located.—( Hear, hear.) He had
heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Dungarvon, but he d;d not think the Right lion. Gentle-
man had correctly represented what he stated in the first in-
stance. He (Mr. Shaw) should say that the Right Hoe.
Gentleman was in error as to the practice at Trinity College, and
the emolument of the professors. The CAlege was a= ()pee as
it could he to Human Catholics with resi.ect to education, and
for competition for all the offices and emoluinen's.
Mr. SHEIL What enielumente ?

Mr. SHAW eisheit not to be m'sunderstood. Ile did not
mean the fellowships. but the prefestorships, of which there
were eight, awl one of which, that of professor of Italian, was a
Roman Catholic. Then as to those tt vast emoluments" that
had been spoken of, why, there were no such emoluments ; the
emoluments were very trifling, indeed scarcely anything. It
was tine they had chambers, but their allowance was very
small. But, on the whole, he would say that in no one point
of view in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had put the
question' could he (Mr. shaw) agree that Trinity College
should be thrown open to all, because it wa- a colleve that had
been established for Protestant purpose. exclusively. It would
be utterly impo,sible that it could be, beeaus,, in the first
pl,:ee, it was impossible that the fellowships cow(' be
open to Roman Cathodes, or they were obliged not only to
be Protestants, but frequently to enter the Protesdint elurch.
Then as to the Board of Seven, of which tie Right Hon.
Ge. tleman had spoken, and that some of them ought to be
Roman Catholics; that Board was composed of seven of Ow
oldest fellows in the ellege; their emoluments were derived
from patronage in the Established Church, and would it, there-
fore, be fair or just that Roman Catholics should hare the
power of distributing that patronage ?—( Hear, hear.) lie
(Mr. Shaw) felt inclined to make some observations epon the
speeches of the Right lion. Baronet at the head of her 'Majesty's
Government and of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department; but as he did not think the
present was the proper tame to du so, he would reserve himself
until that time did come. He would, therefore, conclude by
repeating that he would not oppose the introduction of the
measure, nor did he think he would at any period of its pro-
gress offer it any opposi ion.
Mr. WARBURTON said he would not address one word
to the House on the subject, connected as it was with Ireland,
except that he had heard a good deal said of the London Uni-
versity, of the Senate of which lie happened to be a Member,
and of the management of which he had heard some observa-
tions that betrayed ignorance of the subject. Now, the Lon-
don University had no fewer than five Roman Catholic col-
leges connected with it, and those who presided over those col-
leges were candidates for all the honours of that University.
There were also several other colleges connected with it, of
different religious persuesions, and the superintendents also
enjoyed the same privileges, and the only object of that
was that the academical honours should be open to all classes.
if such were the case, then, in the London
university, let the country hear no more of this exclusive-
ness—( Hear)--and he hoped it would not be long before he
should hear of the State establishing in Dublin a great univer-
sity, similar to the London University.—( Hear.) If they
wished these new universities to flourish, they must open the
secular rewards to the persons who distinguished themselves in
these institutions. He sat down altogether approving of the
measure of her Majesty's Government, as far as it went, and
hoped it would be followed up.
Mr. PL UMPIRE objected to the plan, as there was no re-
cognition of Christianity, and brought forward the feet that
the Rev. Dr. Arnold, who hail been connected with the Lon-
don University, found it necessary to withdraw from it. because
there was no recognition of Christianity entertained there.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he would not trespass
anion the House, but for the expressions made use of by the
Member for Dublin, who attacked the Hon. Member below
him for the views which he had taken with regard to the pro-
priety of having the fellowships opened to the Roman Catho-
lics. He also wished to set him right on the point, that the
entire of those who had finished their studies at the university
did not become clergymen. As one who had prosecuted his
studies at that university, he (Mr. O'Connell) wished to state
that half of them became members of the bar. It would be
far better if they adopted the system of excluding none, on
account of religion, from the honours bestowed upon the suc-
cessful candidates at Trinity College, Dublin. It was of the
greatest importance that the Government should leave nothing
undone. Let them not hear of conscientious objections, which
in the course of a few years they would have to set, asele.
Let them not wai: until another little black cloud
would appear in the horizon, to grant any further
little concessions. He hoped, that as this measure was about
to be followed up, that those educated in Cork would not be
exclusively Roman Catholics, nor those educated in Belfast be
exclusively Presbyterians, but to see all tests receiving
common education in all the colleges. He thought that the
evil was that of establishing these institutions apart from
Trinity College, Dublin. If they did this, they would have a
prejudice raised ag,,inst them. They would be called pro-
vincial institutions, things of modern date ; and those persons
who would be educated there would have to go and finish
their education in Trinity College. Dublin, or at Oxford. He
was anxious not to occupy the House further than by saying,
that when the Bill should be brought in'he hoped that it would
be found to be one which would give general satisfaction in
Ireland.

to statements which wore only made" conditionally.—( Hear.)
You did not enter into any con•ract with us. The Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government distinctly declared
he would enter into no compact with Roman Catholics. But
might you not open Trinity College as a great national
establishment without incurring the evils you apprehend. You
think it would not be consistent with justice or policy to do
so. I think it is not consistent with justice or policy to close it.
Remember that you leave Trinity College in the enjoyment of
permanent and predominant advantages. Its possessions are very
large. The fellows of that college raise each about 2,000/. a
year, and they have a high social position, as well from their
great acquirements, as from their ample emoluments. It sends
two Members to Parliament, arid, in short, enjoys many other
advantages above any other institution. Now, as long as it
is thus predominant, for so long you cannot expect the Catho-
lic people will be reconciled to it. I know you will tell me
that the interests of the Established Church require that it
should be in some respects exclusively Protestant. How un
fortunate it is that whenever a project for the amelioration
of the country is devised, the Church Establishment
must be flung in its way— ( Hear, -hear)—and encounter the
projector at every step. There can be no doubt but these fel-
lowships would be eagerly s ruggled for by Catholics if they
were open to them—that thee are in the road to the highest
promotion, and yet in what conriexim (properly speaking) with
the Ecclesiastical department ?—( Hear. hear.) When Roman
Catholics are admi,ted to universities, they should be allowed
o reach the acme of their honours, their dignities, and their
emoluments—they should be allowed to pluck the golden
fruits which grow on the tree of knovvledge.—(Cries of
Hear, hear.') There existed a system in that college
with respect to scholarships, which is every way worthy of
condemnation. A Roman Catholic enters as a star, and ob-
tains the prizes in science and the classics. After two years'
study, he can only become a candidate for a scholarship by re-
linquishing his faith. which many, I regret to say, have done
from sordid motives, and afterwards relapsed into open infi-
deltty. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) told the
Recorder for Dublin, a few nights ago, that ascendancy in
Ireland was at an end ; but Trinity College, as it now
stood, was an odious monument of ascendancy.—(Hear.)
If they leave Trinity College as it stands, they leave it be-
cause of its ascendancy, and I shall ask the Government if
it will be wise, if it will be politic, to do this after the
Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home Department has
told them that the future Government of Ireland cannot be
conducted on the same principle ? What IC should now wish
to see is this, an equality between those professing Roman
Catholic principles and the Protestants of Ireland. While I
thus object to the Government policy in detail, I cannot ob-
ject to the general principle which they pursue, because I
think it calculated to induce a more friendly feeling between
the countries. I cannot, under these circumstances, with.
hold my meed of praise from the Government measure as
far as it goes,
Sir It PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had neither,
by his speech or his intended vote, removed his impression of
the course he had pursued in 1835, when he (Sir R. Peel)
had said that the ;hie( tliNculty of his Government s ested
with Ireland. The Right Hon. Baronet had not certainly
done much to remove tnat impression from his ( Sir R. Peel's)
mind, when he found the Right Hon. Member for Dungar-
von prepared to vote with the Right lion. Baronet the Member
for Oxford, in his opposition to a measure which was intended
as ono of justice to the people of Ireland. In addressing him-
self, in the fi st place,' to the observationi which hi& fallen
fi ova the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford
(Sir R. IL Inglis), he felt it might be asked, what was in-
tended by the term " educational instruction ?" They
had already provided ample raeans for the instruc-
tion of the pogr9r classes irciand, k, his Right
Honourable Friend the secretary for the Rome Department
had informed them that they had educated about 400,000 of
the children of the poorer classes i t Ireland. But they found
that in Ireland there was not the same amount of academical in
struction which they had in Scotland—a country with only one•
third of the population. In Scotland they had five institutions
for educational purposes, bat in Inland there were no such ad-
vantages. They had, indeed, two establishments for the pur-
poses of secular and reigioub ejneatlon-tltheone, Trinity Col-
lege, Dublin, and the ether the much'-vilified Maynooth Col-
lege. In no other instance did any institution exist in Ireland
for the purpcses of affoFdigg guch insti-u4iou as might be en-
couraged by the State. The Clovernnaent proposed to supply
that omission, but it must be remembered that they had to deai

Mr. SHAW said a few words in explanation. lie would
not now enter into the consideration of this measure, reserving
to himself the right of taking any course he might think fit on
a future occasion.

Mr. HOPE felt groat repugnance to this measure, as it had
been brought forward to sanction an university in Ireland upon
the principles upon which the University of London had been
established. If the Government had come to the conclusion
that it was necessary for the pacification of Ireland, and fur the
improvement of the moral and social condition of that country
to make the magnificent grant of 26,000/. a year to the College
of Maynooth, and 118,0001. to these three colleges, he would
implore them not to stop there. There were other parts of her
Majesty's dominions in which the religion of the people was
not adequately cared fur. Let them look to the retiring, quiet,
and unobtrusive clergymen of Wales. Let them nqt turn a deaf
ear to the reapectful petitions of the OhUrehmen of Wales.
Those petitions did not come from meetings held on the hill of
Tara, or from Conciliation Hall, but from peacoful and loyal
subjects.
Mr. ROEBUCK said so far art he understood the plan of
the Right Hon! liarona it was intended that Trinity College
should remain for the education cf Protestants, and Maynouth
for the education of Roman Catholics, while these additional
colleges were to stand between the two for the education of
youth of every religious denomination. Now he confessed that
the proposition which had been submitted to tlir. flovise tas
rhiA goormeeiat appeared
not sufficient to remove the evil
desirous cif gettiog rid of. The Right Honourable Baronet
the Member for the University of Oxford had pronounced
the measure a " Gigantic scheme of Godless education,"
but it appeared to him the Right Hon. Baronet tt'ad toada a
last effort to defend a ter: nipal power, aid tee therefore trusted
the Government would treat it With the imnternpt it merited,
Sir H. WIN 81: 11140 N, in sqpportilig the motion,
said that he had Wittieticd ecamplea of liberality in
Protestant countries witkli Protestant England rdght imitate,
if not with pride, certainly with advantage. He believed that
Holland was the most Protestant country in Europe, f t, 'O4
had found Catholic professors at Utrecht, aziii Prnfe-asor
at Haarlem. He hod cn7e 1414 a convereatiOn with a professor
in a f.-fireign 4iiressed his surprise that liberal and
Protedtent England had in her universities such exclusive, or
he would rather say
e'rhidir4g 11.1*-,15 the universities of
Cambridge and f2tafTd had. In the empire of Austria which was
the most Catholic c:ountry in erC)Pi there had recently been
an endownlent of a lkotostaut
cal chair. All the at-
temeta tjw had
_been Ts•-,
to compel the Irish 'people to tip,
svrm to the religion of the State hid failed and the only way to