The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, APRIL 25 1844

endeavoured to retore some degree of order to
their proceedings, and to invest the course they
v. ere taking with some degree of dignity and decorum.
But the question was, after wasting two nights on this
subject, whether, after the extract had been read at the
table, they should not go a step further, and let the matter
fall altogether to the ground. They were now entering
on the question of what limits ought to be drawn in
public discussion. In case of any charge made
in that House, was the House to convert
itself into a court of honour to decide upon it ?
There was sufficient power to keep a speaker in order
in that individual responsibility which attached to every
man. 119 had heard graver charges than any which
were made by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough.
He had heard last cession the leader of the House of
Commons charge an Hon. Gentleman opposite with
making speeches which would lead to assassination.
—(Hear, hear.) How was the Right Honourable
Gentleman treated ? Was he howled at and pouted
down ? No ; Hon. Gentleman opposite sunk before
the accusation in a manner which told little for their
spirit.—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear.") But, in this
instance, because the individual was obnoxious to them,
he was treated in a different manner. He did not agree
with the Hon. Member for Knaresborcugh. lie entirely
disapproved of the course lie had taken. He objected
t. the spirit which animated his remarks. But because
that Hon. Member was obnoxious, and because he was
not backed the moment he made thischarge he was baited.
—(Hear, hear.) Gentleman after gentleman got up
and asked him, " Why did- you say this ?" If the
Hon. Member had the common courtesy of society
exercised towards him, he would have had an opportunity
of extricating himself from the painful position in which
he was placed.— (Hear, hear.) It had been said that
the Hon. Gentleman had flown from the tribunal. He
(Mr. D'lsraeli) was not at all surprised that he did
not wish that tribunal to decide the question. He
had no communication with him on the subject,
except for one moment when ho was passing out of the
House, on which occasion he told him that he had a
bad case and a worse tribunal.—(Laughter.) That was
his (Mr. Disraeli's) opinion. lie believed the
Honourable Member for Knaresborough had not de-
ferred to the tribunal, but had demurred to it.
He considered it was unnecessary for him to enter into
any explanations with the House, but that individuals
who thought themselves offended would take their own
course. lie did not consider that this quarrel
I should be made the quarrel of the House of
Commons, or that the House should convert itself
into a court of honour.—(Hear, hear.) The practical
question for them to consider was—whether the House
ought to establish so dangerous a precedent. The ques-
t tion b twcen the Hon. Member and the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was very different from that between him and the
I Hon. Member for Beverley.—(Hear.) He had heard the
Hon Member for Knaresborough, on several occasions,
enter into the Mott question and the Keightly Union,
and he had heard the Right Hon Gentleman the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department. and the
Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of the
Government, answer him, and enter upon all the details.
He never could depict to himself any clear idea with
regard to that involved and implicated transaction. All
he could understand was, that there had been a sub-
commission who had made a report which had been
brought forward. That the transaction was involved in
obscure and suspicious circumstances, no one could deny,
but it was absurd to suppose that theßigh(lion. Gentle-
man should make such a perverted use of his power
for so slight an object.—(Cheers and laughter.)
But it should be remembered that this was the case of a
Member of Parliament of warm feelings, who was not
supported by any great party, who imagined that an
attempt had been made by a Minister of the
Crown to put him down, and that he had
resisted that attempt. They should make some
allowance for the exaggerations which excited
feelings and pardonable vanity—(Cheers and laughter)
—would naturally induce a Member under those circum
stances to make use of while addressing the masses of the
operative community with which he deeply sympathised.
What could be more natural than that he should say,
" I did this ; I said this? An attempt was made to put
me down by a Minister of the Crown, who drew from a
green box an unpublished report, but it would not do,
I was not to be crushed." Are we, Sir (continued the
Hon. Gentleman), come to such a pass that a Member of
Parliament was not to be allowed to say this?—(lronical
cheers, and laughter.) Was it for a great statesman like
the Right Hon. Gentleman, to come forward with a
demure countenance and say, " the State is in danger,
there's something rotten in the state of Denmark ?
The House of Commons must interfere to vindicate the
reputation of this strong (even if not popular) Ministry."
—(Loud cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman did not appear at first disposed to move in the
subject, and if it had not been for the attack on the Hon.
Member for Beverley, he thought they would never have
heard of the great Mott case.—(Cheers and laughter.)
He declared solemnly that he had never read the speech
of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, he had never
heard it read until ho bad heard it read
with unusual powers of elocution by the Learned Clerk
at the table.—(Laughter.) He had paid great attention
to it, and he confessed that he had been astonished at
the weakness of the assault. He really thought that on
that occasion, when addressing the masses and the mil-
lions, the Hon. Member for Knaresborough had lost a
great deal of that impassioned fervour which usually
characterised his addresses.—(Cheers and laughter.)
It appeared to him that he did not attack the Hon. Mem-
ber for Beverley, absent, with half the furor which he ex-
hibited in attacking the Hon. Member for Stockport.
present.—(Hear.) He really thought that they might
with as much reason have had the speeches which he
made almost every night, read at the table, and
then have had the Secretary of State solemnly
moving a resolution on the subject. Now, he thought
this subject had been treated by one great master in the
right spirit, Be thought that when the Right Hon.
Gentleman, with that historical research which he al-
ways displayed, called their attention to the case of the
. bottle conjuror, he hit the right nail on the head.—
. (Laughter.) He was surprised after the admirable
example which the Right Hon. Gentleman had set to
find him followed as he had been by the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire. There was
always something very chivalric about the Noble Lord ;
but when they wished to exhibit a perfect model for the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough—when they wished
to teach him what should be the spirit of Parliamentary
discussion, and how an Honourable Member of
that House should hesitate before he made
a statement that could not be proved, he was
rather surprised to find the Noble Lord, the Member ror
North Lancashire, get up, and, in his zeal for his Right
Hon. Friend, denounce the statements made by the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough as false and calumnious, and
announce that the Hon. Member for Knaresborough was
conscious that they were false and calumnious when he
made them. That was an example which the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough would probably study as a
selection model ; and when he returned to that House and
le '
re-
sumed
his place, they would probably find his speeches
distinguished
con
of
f c by
nc
itahtaotryacmKepnrietsy of manner, and choice
s 0 n
which always cha-
racterised the speeches of the Noble Lord.—(Laugh-
ter.) So it always was with the speeches of the
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire. He
destroyed Mr. Ferrand first, and destroyed his own po-
sition afterwards. He was the Prince Rupert of Parlia-
mentary discussion. His charge was resistless, but when
he returned, his camp was always in the possession
of the enemy.—(Laughter.) Then, as if all the great
guns were not sufficient to sink this unfortunate
craft, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, keeping up the solemn spirit
of the farce, rose and said " This is the British House of
Commons, and not the hustings." A gentleman might
tell lies upon the hustings, but he' was not to tell
lies in the House. This was the political
morality of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department.—(Hear.)
Now he entirely differed from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He did not think they ought to tell lies on the
hustings —(Hear, hear.) He thought a gentleman
ought to be as measured in what he said on
the hustings as in what he said in the
House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) And he would
even go further than that, and would say that a gentle-
man ought not to make pledges on the hustings which
he did not mean to redeem in that House.
He did not think that gentlemen on the hustings ought
to denounce the New Poor-litiv, and come into the House
of Commons and vote for it.—(Laughter and cheers.)
He called that corrupt and unprincipled conduct—
(Cheers)—and if any Honourable Gentleman in
that House felt that lie was guilty of this
conduct, let him propose a vote of eensure
upon him (Mr. D'lsraeli) for uttering such a
sentiment.—(Great laughter.) On Friday next, the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough was to come
into that House, if he accepted the lenient alternative of
the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government,
and they were to recommence the proceedings of which
they had had two rehearsals.—(Laughter.) Whether the
piece would succeed after the initiatory proceedings
he could not take upon himself to decide,
but he did know that any attempt in that House,
whether it was right or whether it was wrong, to hunt-
down an individual had never succeeded, but
had always terminated to the disadvantage of the
persons attempting it. He remembered what another Sir
Robert, who was not a greater man than the present Sir
Robert, said with respect to a-similar subject. That Sir
Robert said, " I am quite- tired of roasting a parson."
After his experience with Mr. Stockdale, and after his
contest with the sheriffs, when, as on the present
occasion, he was supported by the Noble Lord the
Member for London, who had rather withdrawn of late
his support from the Government, he (Mr. D'lsraeli)
thought the Right Mon. Baronet was taking a good-
humoured view of this case—a bottle-conjurer
view of it—and said—" Why, really, after what
has occurred, we ought to allow the matter to drop,
feeling quite aware that Mr. Ferrand has already re-
ceived a great moral lesson, and that when he appears
on the hustings in future, I doubt not that he will re-
member the advice of the Right Hon. Baronet the Se-
cretary of State, and always be as cautious as he is in
the House of Commons."—(Cheers and laughter.)
Captain BERKLEY could not agree with the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down in recommending
that the two Hon. Gentlemen who were most interested
should make this a personal
,quarrel. Such a doctrine
was most extraordinary, to sav the least of it. He Capt.
Berkeley) hoped that he would be the last in that House
to offer one word of offence to any Hon. Gentleman ;
but if he ever should do so, he wbuld be ready to
apologise fel it the next moment. He never would
attempt to make a personal quarrel out of any-
thing which had taken place in his public character.
Perhaps, in the first instance, silent contempt would
have been the best cure ; but when, after twenty-four
hours' deliberation, the Hon. Member for Knaresborough
came down yesterday and pledged himself to the truth
of his charge, declaring that he would not retract a
single word--(Hear, hear)—under these circumstances
he did nott ink that it would be for the dignity of the

the passage of which they complain, in order that the
House may take that course which may appear to be the
best. That is the position in which we are placed. I
have referred, Sir, during the interval which has
elapsed since this subject was last under our considera-
tion, to the cases in recent times which appear to bear
upon this. I think the three principal cases are, the
case of the complaint preferred by Lord Maid-
stone against Mr. O'Connell, the application
made to the House by Mr. Shell, the Right
Hon. Gentleman, who is now a Member of this House,
for the vindication of his character against certain
charges, which were brought against him in a speech
delivered by a Member of this Hcuse, Mr. Hill, at a
public meeting; and the third case is a complaint
made by the Hon. Member for Warrington, Mr.
Blackburn, against a gentleman who bad been
unseated by the report of a Select Com-
mittee—Mr. Poulter. Those are the cases in
recent times, which appear to have an immediate bear-
ing upon our proceedings in the present instance. Sir,
1 will not point out the nice distinctions which may exist
between these several cases and the present. The con-
clusion which I have drawn from the course pur-
sued on the whole of these occasions is this, that
it would be right upon the present occasion to re-
solve that this House will take the complaint, which
has now been made by two of its Members, into consi-
deration on Friday next.—(Hear, hear.) My respect-
ful advice to the House is, that we shall proceed in this
case with strict adherence to all established formalities
—that we shall give no party any right to complain
'that we are taking advanvantage of admissions casually
made by him, or that we are acting precipitately.
or have refused to a'low him an opportunity
of explaining anything which he may have said.
I think that, in the course of yesterday, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Knaresborough did distinctly admit that the
paragraph complained of contained a correct report of
his speech. He also stated that he was prepared to
abide by the charge which that paragraph alleges to have
been made. Still, although he made that admission, he
did not conclude the speech he was then delivering ; and
it is possible that had that speech been brought to a con-
clusion, some mitigating statements would have been
made by him, which he had not an opportunity of
making. I think that strict justice would in-
cline me to advise that we should not take
advantage of admissions made under such circumstances.
—(Cheers.) I should advise that we resolve to take the
matter of this complaint into consideration on Friday
next ; and I would combine that resolution with another,
namely, that the Hun. Member for Knaresborough
should attend in his place on Friday next, for the pur-
pose of hearing that paragraph read to him by the
Speak.er, in order that he may state whether or not be
admits this report to be a correct report of
what he said ; and I think alio that we ought
to give him an opportunity of establishing the
charges which he has made.—(Cheers.) If he admits
the report, and if he states that he is in a condition to
prove it, and that he is willing to prove the charges
a hich be has preferred, my advice to the House is to
give him an unreserved opportunity of doing so. I would
not assume the falsity of the report, but I would advise the
House to be willing to accept the proof and to appoint a
Select Committee fur the purpose of enabling the Hon.
Member to substantiate his charges. I will discuss no
other contingencies, and I trust that I have spoken as
becomes my position in giving my advice to the House.
I want to act most dispassionately, and my advice is to
act with all due regard to established forms; and I there-
fore content myself by moving, that the House take
this complaint into consideration on Friday next, and if
the House should affirm that resolution, I will move that
the Member to whom this speech was attributed do
attend in his place on that day.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I rise merely to say, that
I entirely concur in the course now proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman., I think I cannot do better
than refrain from saying a single word more respecting
it, as I think a better course could not be pursued under
the circumstances.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FRENCH—The impression on my mind is, that
the words which have been just. read to the House do
not bear out the charges which have been made by
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. I cannot see
that the passage in the Tines beats out the charge that
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite tampered with the
Hon. Member fur Beverley, and as to the charge
against the Right Hon. Gentleman, I can only say that
the Right Hon. Gentleman did read the document which
had been got up by Mr. Mott, and which document, if the
public papers speak the truth, was acknowledged to be false
and Mr. Mott has since been dismissed from his office.—
(Hear.) I think that as far as the Hon. Member for
Beverley is concerned, he must have perceived from the
cheering of the House that his characterstands altogether
unimpeached.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Hon. Member
for Knaresborough, I must admit that he has the mis-
fortune of not being able to control his tongue.—(Loud
cheers, and laughter.) But I think it is a dangerous
precedent that a Minister of the Crown, backed by a
majority of the House, should be able to put down any
man who ventured to bring a charge against him. On
that ground I must object to the motion.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said—Sir, the Hon. Gentleman has
altogether mistaken -the course which I meant to pursue.
I have proposed a resolution to the effect, that the House
shall consider the charge, and shall give the Hun. Mem-
ber a full opportunity of proving its truth.—(Hear.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE was not quite sure that they were
going according to precedent. He thought that it was
the proprietor or printer of the newspaper who
should be called to the bar in this case. The Noble
Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) bad gone rather too far
when he said that the Hon. Member must have known
when he made the charge, that it was untrue. The course
proposed by the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department would have been the best, to
have the words of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough
taken down—(Hear, hear)—without going through the
intermediate process of reading a newspaper.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not mean to justify in the slightest
degree the speech of the Hon. Member, nor did he think
there was the slightest ground for the accusation. But he
must also recollect that the two gentlemen impugned
had allowed ten days to pass over without noticing the
charges, instead of calling the accuser to account
on the first day after the recess, which was
what lie (Mr. Duncombe) had expected when
he read the speech.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the
charge was calumnious, and, as it was made in the pre-
since of thousands, no time should have been lost
in calling for explanation in the House on the first op-
portunity.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Be-
verley had said that he had been advised by his friends
to treat the charge with silent contempt.—(Hear.)
In his opinion the advice so given was sound and good.
But then another Hon. Member, totally unconnected
with the matter—whose name had never been brought-
forward in relation to it—got up and said to the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand), " Pray, Sir,
did you say so and so?"—(Laughter.) Now, in answer
to that question, had he (Mr. Duncombe) been the per-
son interrogated, he should have said, " Pray, Sir, what
business is that of yours?"—(Loud laughter and cheers.)
He should, however, if interrogated by certain of the
Hon. Gentlemen, certainly have given them the satis-
faction they had a right to ask, either in that House or
out of it. But they not choosing to ask it,
he really had not been . able 10 see what
right any other Honourable Member had to
ask it for them.—(Loud cheers.) But the ques-
tion having been put, they had now to deal with a state-
ment which had been avowed, and they were doing so
in a very round-about way. In his opinion, the
most proper course now to pursue was to re-
fer the matter to a Committee of three or five Mem-
bers—aye, and he would not object to the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough himself nominating that
Committee. If, before that Committee, he refused to
substantiate his accusations, or if, in that Com-
mittee, he failed in substantiating his charges, then it
would be fur the House to exercise its undoubted au-
thority should not that Hon. Gentleman—as he hoped he
would do, and as he (Mr. Duncombe) would not hesitate
to do—at once withdraw the charges he might be mi-
-1 able to substantiate, and express his regret for making
assertions for which there was no foundation.—(Cheers.)
Mr. D'ISRAELI said he had been a member of the
Nottingham Committee, and could bear witness to the
utter groundlessness of the charges brought against the
Hon. Member for Beverley.—(Hear, hear.) No man's
conduct could have been more satisfactory. True
he (Mr. D'lsraeli) differed in opinion with the
Honourable Gentleman, but ho never for one
moment questioned the conscientiousness of his deci-
sions. With regard to Mr. Ferrand, he entirely dis-
approved of the course he had lately been pursuing in the
country. He disagreed as to the spirit he evinced and
the tone he used towards the master-manufacturers.
He acknowledged them to be an order of men second in
importance to none ; but in treating this subject as the
House seemed now inclined to treat it, he thought they
were taking a very injudicious course, and one of which
they would repent. There were two courses open to the
Bon. Member for Beverley. Having felt that the charge
ought to be noticed, he might have asked some friend,
some man of sense, temper, and firmness, to have applied
to the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. He knew
that some gentlemen thought that an appeal of this kind
immediately led to Wimbledon-common and pistols ;
but he believed that in 990 cases out of a thousand this
was not the case. If the affair had been entrusted to an
individual of that character, it was impossible but the
result must have been satisfactory to the Hon. Member
for Beverley, and not degrading to the Honourable
Member for Knaresborough. But there was another
course open to the Honourable Member for Be-
verley. He might have thrown himself upon the
House, and might have asked it to give him its
protection in his official character.—(" So he did.") But
the Hon. Gentleman did neither ; he neither made a
public nor private complaint on the subject. The mat-
ter was brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman who as-
sumed the office in that House of public prosecutor.—
(Ministerial cheers). He brought it forward
without the least notice without affording the object of
it, that golden bridge which the social spirit and social
usages usually furnished to every one in similar cir-
cumstances—he brought it forward without giving
the slightest opportunity for accommodation.—(" Hear,
hear," from Mr. Roebuck.) The Hon. Member for Bath
seemed to exult in the effect he had produced ; he totally
disapproved of the conduct of the Member for Knares-
borough; he knew the imputation he made to be false
and frivolous, but nothing would exceed the indecorous
conduct of the House if it assumed the judicial
ee e
ie: m.
be
se ful
very o
ones,rßath,
character, in m hat was anything but a judicial
spirit. The charge was suddenly made by the Hon.
A br f
indeed the
suUcihtha
sssahrocawsedms
—notvery
successful
disposi-
tion to be present, though the hand of the master might
not
Beverley
p
had noapParent. The Honourable Member for
capacity, to
thought
appealproper,
toeitthheer inhis
private or üblic Honour-
able Member for Knaresborough. The affair was
t ot fire notice
eteh fq
question bopredcyiptihatatet
was House,
h ad shownan d th ea vdeirsy.
position not in accordance to what he believed to be the
judieklepirtit The Bight Hon. Baronet bed, to-night;

he believed that the charges against the Member for
Beverley were unfounded. As to the other part of the
question, as the Right Hon. Baronet had himself said
that he should wish the matter to rest where it was, he
thought the House would he justified in letting it drop.
As he denied the right of the Hon. Member for Bath to
get the House to prosecute others just when he might
please to interfere, he should therefore move the previous
question as an amendment on the motion before the House.
Mr. SMYTHE seconded the amendment. In doing
so, he disclaimed any concurrence in the opinions ex-
pressed by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. He
believed that the course he had taken on the Factory ques-
tion was pernicious and illusive ; nor did he believe that
the Noble Member for Dorsetshire wished to use any in-
direct means of crushing any political opponent whatever.
He could afferd to say that the straightforward conduct
of the Right Hon. Baronet en the factory agitation
question had been not among the least of the signal
proofs of the great administrative ability of that Right
lion. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) That hallucination of
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough with regard to the
Right Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary of State for the
Home Department could only be paralleled by his hal-
lucination with regard to the Commissioners. He be-
lieved that the Hon. Gentleman was in earnest. With
respect to what fell from the Prime Minister re-
garding the appointment of a Committee before
which Mr. Ferrand was to be called, he did not think
that Committee desirable, because the difference was not
about a question of fact, but a question of motives.
The Hon. Member for Knaresborough had no more
facts to adduce than what he had adduced. In the case
of the Hon. Member for Beverley, he believed that, so
far from having been influenced by any vicious or un-
worthy motive, that Hon. Member was influenced by an
outrageous sense of public virtue.—(Great laughter.)
The House had affirmed the decision of the Committee,
and so declared that the Hon. Member, who paid 401.
for a vote, could not have a seat in the British Legis-
lature. The Hon. Member for Beverley had certainly
shown more than Roman virtue, and the House liad
shown more than Roman effrontery ; because, unlike
the Roman augurs, they could look one another in the
face without laughiug.—(A laugh.) Hon. Members
would find it difficult to give pros fs of their belief to that
House, though they might believe very firmly. What
Hon. Member could take it upon himself to bring for-
ward proofs of the correctness of his belief ?—( A
laugh)—even the most general sort of belief ? Could
the Hon. Member for Tamworth give proofs of his be-
lief ?—(Great laughter.) The Hon. Member for Fins-
bury believed in the six points of the Charter. Could
he adduce proofs of his belief ?
Mr. DUNCOMBE—Yes, certainly.—(Laughter.)
Mr. SMYTHE would be very curious to hear such
an exposition. The whole of this mischief had origi-
nated with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Bath, and the whole of that Hon. Member's
conduct certainly seemed something like an understand-
ing between purity and power. If he were called upon
to justify that belief he could only say that he had been
induced to form it by an attentive observation of the
political career of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—
(Cheers.) He was not to be deceived by his mock
sympathy with a spurious patriotism.—(Cheers.) He
was assailing all, yet sparing one.—(Loud cheers.)
He was assaulting all, yet fawning upon one.
He was constantly saying, if I were not the Diogenes of
Bath, I would be the Alexander of Tamworth.—(Loud
cheers.) The Hon. Member for Bath had taken the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough by surprise ; he had
taken the House by surprise; he had taken the country
by surprise; for he doubted not but that the country
would feel surprised when they saw the House postpon-
ink the consideration of the poor-law to enter, at his in-
stigation, upon these paltry personalities.—(Cheers.)
The country would be the more surprised at this, be-
cause they saw the Hon. and Learned Gentlemanuniting
in his own person the most perfect antithesis, being at
the same the rebels' agent and the Queen's counsel—
the champion of Papineau and the champion of the
Secretary of State.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. INGLIS wished that the advice of his Right
Hon. Friend, with regard to this debate, had been
taken in the first instance, and that he should not have
had such an authority as his Noble Friend behind him
asserting that there were but two courses which, under
the circumstances, could be pursued, either to refer to a
court of law, or to have recourse to the other remedy,
which had been not obscurely hinted at by another Hon.
Member. It appeared from these statements that it was
necessary either to have recourse to the law or to violate
the law. He (Sir R. Inglis;, however, thought there
was another course open. That course was the course
taken by the House on the three former occasions to
which his Right Hon. Friend bad referred, establishing
the precedents upon which he asked the House then to
act. He could hardly think that he had misunderstood
his Noble Friend, considering, the interest with which he
always listened to what fell from him ; but, considering
the principles to which he adverted, he thought he was
called upon to approve the conclusion to which he ap-
peared to have come.
Mr. Hume and Mr. Roebuck rose together to address
the House. There being repeated calls for the latter,
Mr. Hume withdrew.

Mr. ROEBUCK said he feared that he should disap-
point the House; he was going to speak to the question.
—(Laughter.) It struck him that the position of the
question was a very simple one, and if the House would
permit him he would state what he conceived it to be in
three words. A Member of that House had charged a
Minister of the Crown with improperly using the
powers of his office, for the purpose of getting a report
made to that House which was false, to the end
that he might crush a Member of that House.
That charge was made in the hearing of
the House by a Member of the House. He further went
on to say that the same Minister of the Crown had em-
ployed his influence with a Member of that House to
forget the oath which he had given to administer jus-
tice, and to return an untrue verdict.—(Cries of " No,
no.") On the first of these charges a motion was made
in that House, and, before he noticed the motion, he
would remind the House how the charge came before it.
" The whole of the mischief," said an lion. Member, " is
attributable to the Hon. Member for Bath." Now he
had thought fit to ask the Hon. Member for Knaresbo-
rough if ho had made a certain accusation ? That Hon.
Member complained of his not having given him notice ;
but he at once affirmed that he had made the charge,
and he also repeated it. Were he to charge the Hon.
Member opposite with robbery, surely he would not say-
that he ought to have given notice of the charge. The
Hon. Member for Knaresborough complained of the
want of notice, but he admitted that he had made the
charge, and he repeated the words which he had used on
a former occasion. The words were these. The Ho-
nourable Member admitted that he used the words attri-
buted to him in the newspapers.—(Hear, bear.) How
could he (Mr. Roebuck) be called on to make a defence
for the part he had taken ? These were charges which
were worth repeating, but before he should think them
worth while to refute they must come in a more formi-
dable manner than those made against him (Mr. Roebuck)
by the other side.—(Cheers,) 't he Noble Lord did not
seem to understand the extent of his own proposition
of " the previous question." The effect was that the
House gave no opinion upon the subject.—(Cheers.)
But when a Member of that House charged a Minister
of the Crown with having used his power to crush a Mem-
ber of that House, had they come to this pass that the
House would express no opinion of the charge ?—(Hear.)
It had been said that they were bullying and running
down the Member for Knaresborough. Why all the bully-
ing and running down was on the other side.—(Hear.)
He had thought it was his duty, after he read the accu-
sation, to take the first opportunity, when he saw the
Member for Knaresborough in his place, to call on him
to prove the truth of his charge—(Hear)—and he
thought that no honest man would make such charges
without being oble to prove them.—(llear.) The House

House that the matter should be allowed to drop.— ! gave him an opportunity of substantiating his charges— I LLOYD'S SHIPPING.
(Cheers.) It must be in the recollection of every gen- ihe again admitted the charges, and then fled from the LONDON, APRIL 24.—Light northerly breeze, and cloudy.
tleman in the House that the Hon. Member for Knares accusation. The House, however, in its sense of justice, DEAL, APRIL 23.—A.M. Wind light and variable.-8 P.m':
borough had been cheered on in the most vociferous said—" No, we will. determine nothing now, but S.W.—Arrd. Hamayoon, M‘Killer' and Kandiana, Rogers,
manner by a set of gentlemen who, whenever the Honourable Gentleman shall have a farther i Calcutta; Emily, Greaves, ditto, for Newcastle • Eleanor,
Johnson, Cuba, with loss of maintopinaSt; Caleb Angus,
the Honourable Gentleman indulged in any coarse oppportunity of rxplaining , hiinself."—(Hear, hear.)
S
language levelled against the Members of the League, He should wish to know, what the Hon. Member for "'endures ; Haabet, Ruse, Charleston, for Copenhagen. id.
Advocate, Sydney; Elizabeth and Jane, Launceston; Olyonois.
or the Opposition of that House, enc'turaged him by. their Shrewsbury, and the Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. s, =omen,, ; John and Tam Shunter, Cape of G d
"sweet voices."—(Cheers and lauehter.) These were, Manners) meant by gentlemanly arrangement ? Why, Mope; Ed Attica; Alice, Jamaica •It rancis Burr, Boston;;
in a great measure, the party answerable for the scrape he thought no other interpretation could be put upon. et. Patrick, Quebec; loyal Tar (steamer),' Madeira.
in which he had now got. It was very aptly remarked his words, than that the charges should be substantiated OFF THE WIGHT, Amite 20—Flora, Otters, for Bremen.
by a gentleman on that (the Opposition) side of the Iby the pistol. What else could he understood, when he PLYMOUTH, Arnie 23.—Wind, variable.—Arrd. Lord
House, that the Hon. Member for Knaresborough had said th,' ihm. Member fur Beverley should apply to a William Bentinck, London, for Port Phillip.
been kept like a dog chained up to check the manufec- friend, who would at once get him out of any difficulty. SOUTHAMPTON, APRIL 24.—Arrd. Trent (steamer), West
turers, and that, having broken his chain,he turned round He (Mr. Reebtich) thought that after what had on. Indies, Carthagena 16th, Demerara 19th, Trinidad 20th,
and worried his master.—(Cheers and laughter.) curved in this House within the last two months, Jamaica 23d, Barbadoes 24th, Grenada 26th, St. Thomas'ie
Lord JOHN MANNERS said it had been his inten- Such a suggestion was most disgraceful to those who
tion when he came into the House, if any vote of cen- made it. It had been said that 1 his question was too in- i OFF DOVER, Amur, 24.—Weser, Texas, for Bremen. .
list ult.
PORTSMOUTH APRIL '-'3 —Wind S h,,ht sin —iota. TTU isve-
sure should have been proposed, !,.) move the previous . significant to take up the lilac of the H. use. Let them - .' -' . - " !-.., ' ". At . - •
.retta, London, fur Sycbov, New south \V ales ; Vietur;a. ditto,
question, and he now thought that it would be the best see how the matter stood. One Hon. Member rest. in
course . for him to make that motion ss an amendment his place and accused anorh, r be.tore the Hou-e and the for New York. ' -
LIVERPOOL, APRIL 19.—The Blerg, arrived at St. Ilelsaae
upon the present question.—(Hear, hear.) First, on country of acting corruptly. Agein, he made a charge experienced a hurricane Jan. 28, let. 19 S., ion. 8 E.E., Aka
general grounds, because he was net prepared to agree in against a Minister of the Crewn of exercising the in- wind veering from N.E. round by N. to S.W.
the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary fluence of his office for a similar end, and therefore he , LIVERPOOL, _Arm, 23.—Winti W.S.W. to N.W., modes
of State for the Home Department, that the House was thought this wets a natter which called for the special rate.—Arrd. Lord Stankv, sierra Leone; Al ertha Jane,
bound in every case to interfere in quarrels betwet n in- inter:erence of the Heuse.—(Cheer=.) , Hondurae; Wellington, Jeffries; New Orleans. Ski. Ellers-
lie, Rio ; Buckingham, Boston ; Mars, St. John's,';-ew Bruits-
dividual Members, and to decide which was right, and Mr. SMYTHE said the lion. Member who had just
which was wrong. There seemed then, to be two courses sat down had made assertions which could not b. sub 'l\v'ieeWkf n nZderti 1 ci. r,
atriebjeac ;e Ma, gnet,i Messenger, and Argo,
Ps.i,drteGr,e.
ocrlthioae.
of procedure—the one which was recognised by the law stantiated.—(Here the cries of " Order" anti " Chair" WATERFORD, APR'IL 21 s Quebec.
of the land—there was an appeal to the courts of justice, became so loud as to render the Hon. Member inaudible, CORK, APRIL 21.—S1d. Martha'', 'St. iohn's, Ness'
to which even at the present moment the Hon. Meinber although by his gesticulation e e could see that he was Brunswick.
for Knaresborough was' amenable—the second was speaking with considerable warmth.) . LIMERICK, APRIL 22.—S1d. Energy and Thetis, Quebec.
that course of procedure which had been indicated by leord HO WICK said he should strongly deprecate the Streoeixess, APRIL 19.—The King William, of Berwick,
the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury.—(Great laughter.) mode of settling this question e hieh was suggested by which was laid on the beach at the Island of Flotta lab inst.,
He wished to refer to the particular question us it the Noble Lord opposite. He thought the House was after being ashore, has been assisted round here and will be-
affected the Hon. Member for Beverley (Mr. Hogg). acting most utiwise.y in carrying this matter any fur- surveyed.
Nothing,
se. he could assure the House, was further from they ; and his reason fur coming to this conclusion was ICHOROE.—Acrd. Bradshaw, Columbine, and Argyll,
,
his intention than to question the honour and integrity because he knew that the Hou felt the charge to be Liverpool.
of either the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hoeg) or of the utterly groundless and deserving of contempt, and there- THE CURRENTS OF THE OCEAN.
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State fur the fore he hoped it would take no further notice of it. If The following. enclosed in a bottle, was picked up in.
Horne Department. Having acquitted himself of any such they took any other course, they were bound to con- i the port of Isabella, on the north coast of Porto Rico, on
intention, he must beg the House to reflect upon what sider the consequences that might arise her( after. Al- the 18th March last, and has been lore arcled to Lloyd's:
was the direct charge said to have been brought with though no one, for a moment, could imagine " Meet 15, 1838. EIGHT P.sr.—Her Majesty's ship
respect to the Hon. Member for Beverley (Mr. Hogg). the slightest foundation for the present accusation, Andromache, at sea in let. 47 deg. 10 min. N., lon. 34
As that charge had been stated by him (Mr. Hogg). it yet it was possible that at R future period some Minis- deg. 50 min. W., out six days from Plymouth—left
was to the effect that that Hon. Gentleman had been in- ter of the Crown might exercise his powers in such a Sc fly at nine A.m. of the 10th inst.
fluenced in his duty by the Right. Hon. Baronet (Sir J. manner as to call for the intervention of the House, and " During the last tso days have experienced a strong;
Graham), in order to do an injustice to another Hon. by passing the vete now proposed, it would be establish- southerly current of one knot per hour. This bottle is;
Member. Now he (Mr. Hogg), in reading the passage ing a precedent which would deter any Member of that thrown overboard to ascertain the set of the current, and.
of which he complained, said that, in a court of justice, House from bringing the matter forward. The man, lie it is requested that the person into whose hands it may
such passage would be judged as to its obvious meaning, thought, who made an accusation which he could not fall will cause the circumstance, with particulars, to be
and as to the ordinary acceptation of the words used. substantiate, laid himself open to that degree of con-
published for the benefit of navieation..
He (Lord J. Manners) protested !nest strongly against tempt and ignominy from that House and the country (Signed by the Captain, Mast:.r, and several Offi-
such a line of argument. The House ought to take which would he quite sufficient punishment for him if cers, both belonging to the vessel and passengers
that charge in its literal acceptation, and not to he possessed the feelings of a man or a gentleman. If to Quebec.)
put one and one together in order to cumulate an offence. the public were satisfied upon this matter without any VESSELS SPOKEN AVITIL—The James, from London,
Such a course he considered to be essentially unfair. resolution, he could see no good that was likely to arise 17th inst., lat. 50, lon. 11; Ava, Portsmouth to Quebec,
They could only take the speech in its literal sense, and, from passing it. He could trot see that great difference 18th, lat. 51, lon. 10; Carisbrook, Belfast to Quebec,
that they might judge it in its literal sense, he would between a false accusation made against an individual same day, lat. 51, ion. 8, by the William Thompson,
take leave again to read it to the House. (The Noble Member of that House and a Minister of the- arrived at Bristol. Augusta, Bristol to Bombay, sth
Lord here read the speech in question.) Now, was there Crown. The House would remember that the ult., lat. 22 S., lon. 29 W., .by the Golconda, England,
in these words any imputation of dishonourable motives Hon. Member for Knaresborough had made an arrived at Swansea. Wilhelmine, Regenburg, from
on the Member for Beverley ?—(01), oh.) Gentlemen attack upon the Hon. Member for Stockport a short Buenos Ayres, lat. 38, lon. 67 W., by the Nord, arriv
behind him cried " Oh, oh," and such might be their time since, when he accused him of acting contrary to in the Downs. Elvira, Liverpool to China, sth ult., lat..
opinion. But, from the tone of all the altercation, he law, and compelling his labourers to adopt the truck 2, ion. 24 W. ; Woodman, Clyde to Tobago, 21st nit,-
believed that the Right Hon. Baronet was very glad that system. In that case nothing was done, yet the House lat. 22 N., lon. 24 W., by the Kandiana, Rogers, arrived
Mr. Walter was unseated—that Mr. Walter was turned was perfectly convinced of the falsehood of the charge. in the Downs. Ulverstone, Feb. 12, off the Cape of
out of Parliament. Mr. Hogg was the Chairman of the They had already occupied too much of their time with Good Hope, by the Humayeon, arrived in the Downs.
Committee ly which Mr. Walter was unseated. Still, this r subject:—(lleaandlau ht ) H , • t dth t
.
. ,

while there were legislative measures of great import to the
country pending it was ridiculous in them to waste their
time in investigating this trumpery charge. He felt the
present charge was utterly false. But nevertheless he did
not wish to establish a precedent which would have the
effect of preventing the Members of that House from
criticising the acts of Ministers of the Crown when their
conduct was such as to call, for criticism. He should
conclude by expressing his hope that the House would
decline any further interference in the matter.
Mr. HUME said he was never more surprised than
at what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for
Sunderland. Ile argued as if the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough were the only person concerned in this
matter. Mr. Ferrand had made a gross charge against
a Member of this Hcuse, and that Hon. Member sought
the protection of the House. The Noble Lord had used
the word " contempt." Now, against no man in that
House had so many charges been made as against him
(Mr. Hume), and he invariably treated them with
eontempt on account of their contemptible nature ;
but this was not a case to be treated with contempt. An
accusation had been brought against an lion. Member,
that he was guilty of aidine, in getting rid of Mr. Walter
from the House, because he was troublesome to Minis-
ters on account of his motions concerning the poor-law.
This assertion had been made, and was believed by a
great number of persons, and therefore, there was a
direct and tangible charge against the Hon. Member for
Beverley and the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State fur the Home Department. Under this conviction,
he thought the case deserving of the special notice of
the House.
Sir J. GRAHAM certainly was of opinion that when
such a change as this was was brought fcrward by any
Hon. Member, it was the duty of the House to interfere.
The Hon. MeMber for Knaresborough had made a
deliberate charge against certain Members of the House,
and, after an interval of twenty-four hours, when he
ought to have had time for due and mature con sideration,he
reiterated it; and that charge was a most serious one, so
far as a Minister of the Crown was concerned, namely,
that he had used his influence in that capacity, for cor-
rupt purposes. With respect to the charge which had
been made against his Hon. Friend the Member
for Beverley, he thought that nothing could be mere
utterly groundless or false.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be much
better if the further discussion of this matter was dropped
for the present. With respect to the observations of the
Noble Lord opposite, 'he thought it would be as well if
they, or any future ones which he might have to make,
should be deferred until the time appointed for the fur-
ther discussion of this subject, namely, next Friday.
Mr. HOGG concurred in what had been just ex-
pressed. He thought it would be much better not to
press for any discussion until Friday.
Lord J. MANNERS .said, that after what had fallen
from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the
Home Department, and'also from the Noble Lord, he
felt it his duty to withdraw his motion. He would just
take that opportunity of stating that, in what he had
said that evening, he had not intended in the remotest
degree to advocate the practice of duelling, as the Hon.
Member for Bath had charged him with.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the original
motion, after a few words from Lord INGESTRE, was
agreed to.

42, by the Rowley, off Cork. Magpie, Liverpool, to the
Cape of Good Hope, 3d ult., lat. 5 S., lon. 18 W„.. Celt,
from Liverpool, 7th ult., lat. 2 N., lon. 21 W. ; AdVen-
ture, from Jersey, 16th inst., lat. 47, lon. 16 ; Marianne
schooner and Baltimore American ship, 20th, lat. 49,
lon. 8; by. the Ystroom, arrived off Falmouth. James
Vir, of Garlie's-town, for Rio Janeiro, 11th ult., by :the
Jacob Kersting, arrived off Dartmouth. Cornelia brig,
of and from Glasgow, with loss of bowsprit, and hard►
bore up for that port on the 17th inst., lat. 48, lon. 15,
by the Palos, arrived off Falmouth. Victory barque,
for New Orleans, 21st ult., lat. 23 N., lon. 34 W., by the
Emily, arrived in the Downs.

STATE OF TRADE.
(From the Manchester Guardian of yesterday,)
There was no materiel change in oar market yester••
slay. Perhaps, upon the whole, yarn was a little steadier
in price than last week, and rather more business was
done, principally on Russian account. In goods, with
the exception of shirtings, and other fabrics suitable for
the East Indies, which continue in good demand, there
was not much business doing, and, though prices• are
generally firm, in some few cases trifling reductions
were submitted to by manfacturers.
ROCHDALE FLANNEL MARKET, MONDAY, APRIL 22.
—There has been a rather quiet market to-day, some-
what similar to those of the two last weeks. It has
been, what is called " Little Monday," and in general
fewer buyers attend. The business transacted has been
upon a limited scale, and prices have undeygone little or
no change. The wool market still continues dull, and
prices stationary.

MARKET NEWS-YESTERDAY.

CO N-EXCHANGE.

Although the supply of English Wheatwas by no meano
large, the sale for that article was in a sluggish state ; et
Monday's quotations were supported. The best fine Foreign
Wheat was held on full terms, but other qualities, including
bonded samples, were a mere drug. The quantity of Foreign
Barley on show was extensive, owing to which the trade with
all kinds of Barley was heavy, and the rates had, in some
instances, a downward tendency. Malt moved off slowly at
late rates. In Oats, Beans, Peas, and Flour, no alteration
was noticed.

ARRIVAL&
Wheat. Barley.
English
Irish.. 530
Foreign l,lOO 2,090
lalt, 1,600 qrs.

Oats. !lour.
qrs. !SOO mob'
5,4.50

17711XTEC13EL8ML.
Although we had only a moderate supply of each kind of
Meat, the demand was in a very sluggish state, at barely
previous figures :—Beef, from 2s 2d to 3s 4d ; Mutton, 20 4d
to 3s 8E1; Lamb, 5s to 6s 4d ; Veal, 3s 4d to 4s 4d; and
Pork, 2s 6d to 4s 2d per Blbs by the carcase.

[ADVERTISEMENT.] POST-OFFICE AREA NOS'
MENTS.—Worsdell's Vegetable Restorative Pills, Pre-
pared only by John Kaye, Esq , of Dalton Hall. near
Huddersfield, have now, arising solely from their in-
trinsic merits, attained the highest celebrity, and be-
come the most extensively established Family Medicine
of the present day: but as many parties, anxious to ob-
tain this medicine, find great difficulty in doing so, owing.
to many country towns yet being without an Agent,
from whom it can be procured; to obviate this difficult)",
the proprietor has now made arrangements by which
persons, residing in any part of the United Kingdom,'
may be supplied with a single box, post free, direct from
the Wholesale Depot, in London, by forwarding fourteen'
penny postage stamps ; or, for the larger box, 2s. 9d. in-
stamps, addressed—Kaye's Wholesale Depot, 44, Cole-
man-street, near the Bank, London.
HOLLOWAY'S PILLS.—The virtue of this most ex' -
traordinary medicine is so admirable and efficacious. that;
it wonderfully preserves man in health and strength 0
body, and of all the powers and faculties of his mind;
It is a sovereign remedrfor all diseases, however bas;
that admit of a cure. All persons suffering from general
debility, nervous affections, liver or bilious complaints:
sick head-aches, indigestion, want of appetite, as well
as every complaint brought onby sedentery habits, for so
such these Pills will be found to give almost immediate
relief. Sold (also Holloway's Ointment), at Professor
Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand (where advice
may be had gratis) ; and by almost all respectable ven•
dors of medicine throughout the civilised world, in boxes
and pots at Is. lid., 2s. 9d., 4s. 6d., I ls., 225„ and 335*
each.

BIRTHS.
On the 21st inst., at Bath, the lady of Sir Charles Shaw, of
a son, who survived but a short time. '
On the 18th inst., at Tynemouth, Northumberland, 9°
lady of Major G. W. Francklyn, of the 37th Regiment, 01°
son and heir.
On the 22d inst., at Clapham, the wife of Henri Hodge"
Deacon, Esq., of a daughter.
On the 18th inst., at Withycombe, near Exmouth, the wife
of John H. Doyle, Esq , of a daughter.
On the 20th inst., at Colchester, the wife of Arthur
Laing, Esq., of a son.
On the 20th inst., at Great Russell-street, Bloomsburi.
Mrs. R. J. Butt, of a daughter.
On the 21st inst., at Gloucester-road, Regent's-park, 3614
R. J. S. Todd, of a son.-
On the 21st inst., at Earlswood Lodge, near Reigate, ..
lady of Major E. P. Lynch, K.L.S., of a daughter.
the.
lady
On the 21st inst., at Upper Tooting, Mrs: Robert Johno°°'
of a son.
On the 21st inst., Mrs. Curling, Albion road, Stoke NO-
ingten, of a daughter.
On the 22d inst., at Hampstead, the lady of D. S. Bockett'
Esq., of a daughter. •

MARRIED.
On the 10th inst., at Florence, at the British Embassitttbei; .
Rev. James Faithfull, of Hatfield, Herts, to Fanny, daugi"
of J. L. Payson, Esq., United States' Consul at Messina.
On the 19th inst.,at St. Pancras, New-road, Charles Lan
mann, Esq., to Emma, second daughter of G. Bracher, ."4"
of Stamford-hill.
On the 20th inst., at St. James's, Westminster the Be;
John Finlayson, M.A. Christ Church Cathedral, Dubli3O,,
Elizabeth, eldest daughter of the late Duncan Fraser,
Argyll-street, Regent-street.
On the 18th inst., at Aldingbourn, Sussex, Herbert Sceiiiol
berg, Esq., Commander in the Royal Navy, to Sarah, t`'o,6
daughter of the Rev. W. Stevens Bayton, of Wheterg
House, near Chichester. I be°
On the 20th inst., at the parish church of St. Mary to
the Rev. John Robert Hall, Vicar of Frodsham, Cheap-9e
Grace Jane, daughter of the late John Campbell, Eack,
merly of Warriston, near Edinburgh.

DIED.
Isabel'o6
On the 20th inst., at Charles-square, Hoxton,
wife of Samuel Austin Fuller, Esq., aged 54.
On the 29th of November last, at Hobart-town, -
Furneaux Hunt, Esq. 504''
On the 12th inst., Matilda, the wife of William Ba4-9f
of Sion-hill, Bath.
On the 18th inst., at Brompton-row, Mr. George
son, of Camden-town. Lotio'•
On the 18th inst., at Huskards, Ingatestone, Essex, „A 84.
relict of the Itev. J. Kelly, LL.D., Rector of be Copford, agn
On the 19th inst., at Blanton House, Northurarlalm
Tewart, Esq., aged 80. s 311/1
On the 19th inst., at Beley-hill, Rochester, Charle
Simmons. Esq. inst., solicitor. '
On the 19th at Lansdown-place East, Bath, the
John Hunter, A.M., aged 48. of lir'
On the 20th inst., at Wigan, Herbet Gale, elder 50
Rees, Esq. A-0135
On the 18th. inst., at Gloucester-place, Brightoli,ortheo,
Maria, relict of the late Rev. Robert Williams, of
Shropshire, Shropshire, aged 64.
ar-en Mr. Eli"
On the 19th inst., at Bow-street, eovent-g
Carter, aged 65. Sore°l/'
On the 19th inst., at Guildford, Captain George
R.N., aged 78. Al./. Charles
On the 19th inst., at Heene, near Worthing, •
Stevens, late of her Majesty's Receiptof Exchequer. Jones
On the 20th inst., Eleanor, second daughter eL
Chapel, Esq., Fitzroy-square, aged 24.

London: Printed and Published by MURDO Yu': ;12,
No: 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Ofl;ce ,%v of
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the Coon'i
Middlesex, Thursday, April 25, 1844.