The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-23 00:00:00

The committee is.speaking of the Canada market? . I was told when I came
here, that the red pine timber, which I shipped last year, was as good as Memel
timber.
Is there much red, pine timber shipped from Quebec? The proportion of red
pine timber' shipped from Quebec is very large.
.Can you state in what proportion? I should think in the proportion of a fourth ;
..
have been in the habit for sometime of shipping for the -London market, and I
have,r•
a.vsery seldom shipped any white pine timber. .
H it not been in the habit of your house, to confine itself to the shipping of the
Test description of timber from America to London market? I was ordered to
hiy_athat which would be most advantageous in the London market.
s the timber trade contributed much to clear the country? It has certainly.
tMrThonias Morris, called in-; and examined.
. iat situation do you hold? lam surveyor general.
re you not directed to prepare a report for the custornt, respecting the man-
ner of, taking the duty upon deals? Yes.
was it exclusively on deals that you were to report ? On deals and battens.
Not on timber'? No.'
tsb
liave You that report with you? I have not yet finished it; but I have the
-
les of the calculation with me.
• Have you found it to be practicable, without any material difficulty in the col-
lection of the revenue, to adopt the principle of taking-the duty on the cubical
contents? There would be some difficulty in it at first, I think.
Can you suggest to the committee any change in thepresent system"of collect-
ing the duties on deals, that would make those duties bear more equally on deals of
different descriptions than they do at present ? NOne other than by cubic measure,
or by a scale of the lengths and thickness and widths.
have , you thought of such a graduated scale, as you could submit to the consi-
deration of the committ,..e? I have not.
Ifa graduated scale was mach in the following manner, that no alteration was
Made in the width of the dcils, but in place of all deals under three inches and a
',tarter being considered in one class, they were divided into two ; and that all deals
ttn: eight feet to twenty in, length being considered as a class, and divided, into
","would such a system be attended with much increased difficulty to the reve-
""d e officer, or inconvenience to the importer? Certainly not to the revenue officer
Could
should think not to the inipotter.
i 40Q"-14 Y°4-sdgg,est to the committee any better mode of collecting the duty, so
Mons
Inake It bear mere equa4 than it does at present, upon the difii:rent (Innen-
i
cub of weals? Ido not apprehend that the system of charging the duties by
t Measurement would be very troublesome ; and I do not know you can hit
upon a more equitable mode of charging the duties.
Could you charge it equally so upon what you 'called deal ends? Yes.
• Are you aware of any objection there is'to its being so charged upon deal ends ?
4 11 not aware of any; so far as regards the revenue certainly not.
yoU state to the committee the system You would propose to adopt, in
measuring the cubic contents of deals? 1 apprehend I can answer that question
Only, by saying that deals of certain diMensions must be piled together, so as to
Tnable the officer to ascertain how many there are of each description ; when that•
done, the thing is as simple as possible.'
After the piles when so measured were taken asunder, no means would then
remain to check their contents, in the event of any fraud being practised with the
uni -
Connivance of the officer? After the deals- are delivered out of ; the custody of
the officer and separated, there would be no means of identifying them, but the
Eaine difficulty occurs now, after the account is taken by the officer and the deals
separated, under the present system.
d Are you not of opinion that it would materially facilitate the collecting of the
There, ifa certain scale were established with' more gradations than at present exists?
re. would be the same difficulties if. the duties were laid on by scale, as if by
Cubic Measure.
Then it is your opinion that no material inconvenience would arise, either to the
trader or to the revenue, from a system of collection founded strictly upon the
Principles of cubic measure? No material, inconvenience certainly.
tol3o you think it would be advantageous to the revenue, if deal ends liable to the
duty, were reduced-from eight feet to six feet? Certainly, it would be advan-
teous to the revenue
130 you not believe that, in consequence of the length being fixed at eight feet,
'any cargoes consisting of deal ends exclusively, ate brought to this country?
Yes, I believe so.
Do you believe that those are Out to that size, for the purpose of coming in
tinder the low duty? I have reason for thinking so.
[Adjourned till to-morrow, at one 'clock.

Nartis, 27 die Februarii, 1821.
The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLACE, in the chair.

Mr. James Young, called in; and examined. -
IN what line of business are you engaged at present? As a broker, in the dis-
posal of timber from the north of Europa and the Colonies.
llow long have you been engaged in that line of business? Upwards of thirty
probably
in the timber, from the north of 'Europe particularly; from the Colonies
e°libly not more than fifteen years.
teall4ld ve you any information to give:to the committee on the state of the timber
ga e generally? I have: The supplies from the north of Europe, considering.
tiatnst't4(...Yrussia, Sweden and Norway, as included,. and from. the Colonies, at the
the con7e, are much larger than by any possibility can.be consumed in this country :
conceillettition, therefore, that is constantly excited is destroying both. trades. I
than it • ' the result of along experience, that if the supply-was more, interrupted
Prusi Is from Norway, a good trade in British ships might be supported xrom I ussia,
's'4, Sweden; , and our Colonies; it is the contiguity of Norway, with its.
state. pabilitv
of supply, that constantly keeps our market in a feverish and depressed
p4l: great prejudice has existed the timber imported from the Colonies,
tottleolarly the yellow pine timber;' that prejudice is gradually subsiding ; and with
ts-81),et to the red pine timber, it iS, by many competent judges, conside!-eda.s good
our the thnber from Prussia ; the conelnsion that I drawfrom these premises that
Colonies would be equal to a supply of all the useful and necessary wood that
4-s
tinted in this country in the progress of time. lam not aware that lean give
call, general imformation, more than I have new stated ; the timber from the
of Europe, undoubtedly, may be had cheaper
.and better; put the two trades
I;;"t exist togetherin their present.statc, the one or.the other must be givtn up.
tin% nat is the general price of Baltic timber in this market at present? Of Memel
web"' front 61. ss. to 61..05. per load.
21. at is the price of the yellow pine timber from the Colonies? Tram 31.
es.
INTh .
at Is the price of Riga timber? 61. 15s. to 71. There is an unusually short
Uponthis season from Memel and from Riga.
e duty upon. Baltic timber bump at present 31. ss. -and there being no duty
; American timber, if ss. was taken'' off the duty upon Baltic timber, and
ilieeaid on the importation' of American timber, .would that, in your opinion, pro.-
I)ilqianY alteration in the state of rue market ? I think it would go to the aunt-
kiln it of the timber from the-Colonies; I know that it does not upon the average
ee ss• l load the proceeds.
ths• °t that state of the market produced by an overtrading which has taken place
4,71111,-)., the last two Years, and in some degree by a greater importation, in con-
'eQr,-"ee of an expectation that a`cluty would be laid on American timber ? A large
s keptf consumption has taken place in the timber trade, and fewer stocks have
`1'41),,, on hand from the uncertain state of the duties ; ,it has been usual for the
respectmerchants to hold a large stock of timber, but from the uncertainty with
„ th,,t° the duties, they have constatity boughtTrom hand to mouth.
-4nhes:.'re R•large stock presenCon hand olds. There is a large stock of American
A 4111.'''l is in the hands of the importers. -
hill'e,ticati°ll,jnform the committee what is the extent of the present stock of North
--aerKact, timber in the .kingdom? I believe about 30,000 loads in the London
AO 3'o •
oat ,t,l leak to the stock in the kingdom generally ? I cannot.,
t--mes d„,'"°Portion does 30,000 loads bear to the consumption of that species of
irwit pre;reutg the lastyeer in the London Market?. I suppose about tivo.thirds.
agine nt there is eight months supply of thattimber in the market t?
I should
0..
fr !thin
°4l th - Walt period may a fresh supply be exPeeted from America? Within
ree to tour months.
ket er;,,t'iwhen the fresh supply arrives, there -will be a stock remaining in the mar-
t° four months supply.' Yes,' I apprehend there will be.
"co n)tri consider.that an iexcessive.stock'? I do, because the supply is capable
-hat wouniuing up to the month of [December) Sept'ember; and I am now stating
qua_notity. d come within four months; we should have three or four times that
1,1-9503(211 think
I° an Probability bd.:ire [Decernberl September.
the stack at present in hand excessiVe, it appearing that it will
r four
mnnthYou s beyond the commencement of the new supply ? I do.
is
that the prejudice 3 against the American yellow pine timber in this
1,04
,rninishing ? It is.
4.4),„r. have stated tbs.,. the pa-ice of Baltic timber is at-present double the price of
an yellow pine? It is so.
and -live then
do you reconcile' the-opinion, that when the prejudice. is subsiding,.
Isnu,w,i re the difference of price is double, a duty of ss. and a reduction of fis..
snt:rtl.l;mnihliate the American trade? Chiefly; I-believe, -from the apprehension
bh~,ll-!etl, or the expectation which may be entertained, of a reduction of duty
timber from the north of Europe.
talt ne question is put upon the supposition of .ss. being taken off the one, and ss.
t:tonit.,l.the other ? •'Fhere-is a loss now equal to fifteen shillings a load on the import.
America; if a further prohibition is :iut: on of ss. it will make a loss of 20s.
thitt'..l4 state that you haVe been acquainted with the timber trade for the. last.
I,:)yeaies; state to the committee what were the relative prices of Baltic,apd
NiTcan timber in the years 1809 and .1810? As nearly as my recollection
~des me to state it, one-third.
nlo`.!-s not the price of that period Of Baltic timber from twelve to thirteen pounds •
ie,...te. and the price of Ainerlian yellow })ine from ten to eleven pounds-i• • My
ction only gives me about-nine pounds ;. I. think the American timber was
abbot Then
pounds, but I Cannot speak to particulars.
n
if the price of American timber was then 91.- and the price of
that
altic 131. :
time there was a. considerable consumption of American yellow pine;
11,0,1.10 tin
?t the difference double, ought not the consumption to be greater-in pro-
_ .4t th persuaded, that It wpnlil be greater in proportion if the trade believed
be ind the
c ties front the north of Europe would:remain the same then they • 11
will
no,eed to purchase large:y at the phesent prices of !lois a;ticle*, but as it.
eaves take the smallestquantities
lich they can dispose of, which necessarily
in the hands of the rtrsNu‘c.t.a stock .asite ,is incapable of sustaining,
/.1.. we are constantly pressing in the market for slie
a not the d-epreciation which has taken place within the last three years, in

THE first cost of the ship, was
or per ton

. . 17 10 10

No. 2.

A Statement of the expenses and earnings of the said ship,
on a voyage from Shields to London, 1819.

L S. D.
To disbts. atNeweastle, including fitter's bill for cargo 445 12 4
Do. London, sale duty, commission, men's wages,&c. 357 It) 4
Insurance on ship 6,6001. a' 14- gs. per cwt. and policy 90 15 0

Contra Cr.
By amount of sale of 426-1 ch. of Wallsend coals, at 415.-9 d,
a' 41s. 9d. . . . . ,

Balance lost on the voyage, alth6ugh there is no insurance on
the cargo of coals _ .

No. 3.
On a voyage from' London to Quebec; and back to
London,
.1819.

.
disbursements at London outwards .
Do: at quebec . .
Do. at London, inwards . .
Postage bill ..
~
Broker's account . . .
Insurance on 6,6001. a' 4gs. . .
Do. on freight'l,6ool. a' per cent. . I .
Policy duty . . • . . •
Wear and Tear for one year, a' 10 per tent.

L. S. 11..
. 279 16 6
102 16 - 9
10,,) 12 10
2:36 1 0
. 64 10 1
277 4 0
54 12 0
. 20 10 0
. (60 0 0

ContrA Cr.

his. ft.
By freight of timber 383 22 a' 31.
_ . cwt q. ds.
Do. •of deals 30 '2 10 a' 31.
Do. of staves 49 3 oa' 251.
5 per cent. thereon

L. S. D.
1,256 6 5

. 275 5 0
-124 7 6
77 15 11

Balance Lost on the voyage

No. 4.
On a voyage from London to Quebec, and back to

London, 1826.

L. S. D.
To disbursements at London, outwards . . 416 14 . 0
Do. Quebec . ' 112 13 5
• .
Do. at London, inwards . . 76 18 5
. .
Wagcson the voyage . . . 2,11 10 4
• Commission on freight . . :4 3 Q
.
Insuraree on 0,0001: a' V, gs. . . 220 10 0
Do. on .1,3001. a' 30s. ' . l9 10 0
Policy -day •IS 5 0
. . .
Wear and tear,for one.year, a' 10 per ccut. . 600 0 T 0

Contra Cr.
Idi. ft. . .
By freight &pine timber 323 20 a' ,10s.
cwt. q. ds-.
11 3 " • •IC
1 G') 4 4

L.
. SOS 10 0

D0..0f deals '
Do. ofbattens
Do. of lathwood

. 101 17 8

1415 10

925 S 1

FPPLEMENT TO ,-THE S
, 7 -a -TrE R
1-4 - - -11- A 6 I' -fr-J--11 • "---e-;44. •-• ----,4t
j the price of American timber, been in a great measure occasionedy the excess of
importation beyond the consumption ? The principal occasion has been the decrease
of consumption.
What do yon mean by the decrease of consumption ; do you mean to state that
the consumption of timber in the country generally, has decreased? In London
and the neighbourhood. as far as it has come to my knowledge, it has.generally
decreaSed within the last twelve months. .
-Upon %vita do you found that opinion ? The diffieulty I haVe found in procur-
ing sales for the timber committed to my care.
Is the stock of timber of all descriptions, now in the port of Loudon, greater than
it was A this period in the last year ? I should think it was.
In what proportion ? Not largely.
, Then it is to be presumed, that the sale of the last year has been nearly equal to
the importation ? I suppose it has.
Are you aware that the importation of the last year was remarkably large? It
was remarkably large from the Colonies, but remarkably small from the north of

•
Europe. . •
If the question of duty was set at rest, would not the over-import of timber from
the British colonies, which hai been excited by speculating on the expectation of an
alteration in the duties, di be ? lam induced to believe that large pur-
chases would be made of American timber at the present price, if the belief existed
that no decrease of duties would take place from the north of Europe ; I conceive
if the question of duty was set at rest, that no expectation existed .of a decrease of
duties on timber from the north of Europe, a much larger consumption
.'of the
colonial timber would take place, and much larger purchases be made. •
Would not the imposition of a small duty on timber from the British colonies,
lead to amore 'careful selection of it, and tend to improve its value? Undoubted-
edly ; but that would lead to lessen the quantity most considerably.
In what proportion do you think that a duty of ten shillings per load would di-
minish the relative consumption of American timber in this country? More than
one half.
Would not the taking off a small part of. the duty on the Baltic timber have the
_same effect in producing a better selection of American timber, as the laying a small.
duty on the American ? Ido not think it would have the same effect,. I think it•
would have some effect ; but I am quite sure that it would destroy the colonial trade
one half, if any reduction were to take place of the duty ,on the timber from the.
north of Europe. - .
• 'That amount of duty do you think might be beneficially imposed? None; most
certainly the trade cannot exist under its present disadvantages; it is righting itself;
they. lose so much in the freight, and so much in the measurement from their :bad.
squaring of the timber, that it is very much improving in its state to what it was;
it comes in a _much better state this year than. it did in the former years; it has-
bettered itself every year, finding the advantage of bringing it in a state better
squared, for they lose so much upon the dead freight, and so much upon the mea-
sure, it is evident to the parties interested in the trade that they must take more
pains in making that timber square. - •
Do you mean that the whOle of the immense consumption within the last two,
years has been of a better quality, and better squared than that which was imported
before? I do, generally it has.
And in this immense quantity consumed, there has' not been a greater proportion
of lower and worse description, of wood ? Ido not ,think there has ; but the two
chief causes which have occasioned the reduction of price, has been the decrease of
consumption; and- the unwillingness of the timber dealers to hold any stock, under
the expectation of an alteration of duty, which has obliged the importers to press upon
.the market beyond the capability of taking it off; the sellers have been obliged to
have sometimes three public sales in a week, from the inability of the importers to keep it.
Has not that been owing to the increased importation ? ho ; chiefly to theale-
creased consumption, and the unwillingness of the merchant to hold. •
What description of individuals are the importers of that timber, merchants or
ship-owners?, Merchants are the largest importers.
Ijas not a considerable quantity of timber been brought from the colonies to this
mar during the last and.preceding seasons, for the account of the owners of the
ships in which it was brought? Certainly not to my knowledge a large proportion.
What proportion do you consider not a large proportion ? of one tenth.
Do' you believe that independent of the state of the shipping, which was in want
of employment, the importation of timber during the last two or three years would
have been carried to the extent to which it has? I believe it would not quite, but
it would not have made a large difference ; the causes of the weight on the market
are the decrease in the consumption, and the expectation of an alteration of duty ;
I may be allowed to state as a fact, that the timber I have been chiefly emppelled to
force on the market for sale,• has been for merchants, and not for -ship owners ;
I scarcely recollect an instance of a ship-owner compelling me to sell ; we have now
a great deal of timber which is held by assignees of merchants.
Mr. Thomas Forrest,, called in ; and examined.
Your are a ship-owner at South Shields ? I am.
Where have your ships generally traded to ? I have had them mostly in the
coal trade, the Baltic trade, the North American timbertrade, and theWestlndia trade.
What number of ships belong to the port of Newcastle? Between eight and
nine hundred.
Do you know the amount of their tonnage ? About 190,000 tons. • •
. .

What number of-ships belonging to the port of Newcastle are engaged in the
British North American trade conveying wood to Great Eritain? I believe be.
tween two and three hundred ; the ships of the largest tannage go upon those voy-
ages ; the smaller ships keep in the coasting trade.
What is the amount of tonnage of those ships? It.willbe nearly half the-ton-
nage of the port. .
,What is the present state of the shipping interest in the port of the Tyne? It is
very much depressed, the same as the general Shipping-Interest of the country ; I
dO not know any voyage on Which a ship could be sent, that would.pay the current
expenses of the voyage.
Has the Mirth American timber trade been attended with loss lately ? Yes, it
has been attended with loss.
If any additional impediments were thrown in the way of that trade, would it be
materially injurious to the shippinginterest ? It would very much injure it.
Can you give the committee some information as to the actual expenses of a
voyage to the North American colonies ? • I haVe made up a statement at large,
and I have an abridged one:
[The witness delivered in the same. and it was read as fol
A STATEMENT of the first cost and expenses of a new ship, the NI
launched in 1819.
No. 1.

lows. ]

:Ison,-380 tons;

L. S. D.
6,666 18' 4