The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-05 00:00:00

OF PO FR-RATES.

Lord BROUGHAM had two petitions to present
respecting most unjust and cruel imprisonment of
two paupers, not for the mere non-payment of
poor-rates, but for the non.payment of charges in
the magistrates' office. Thomas Lukin and Ann Ward were
sentenced by the insat.e magistrates" of Leicester for non-
payment of poor-rates—the one pauper in the amount of
ss. 4d., and the other in the amount of 3s. 70. Some
humane person paid the amount of rate due by Ann Ward, but
those tt insane magistrates" committed her for the costs, in the
amount of 205., which was four times the amount of her debt,
When, being evidently unable to pay these smaller sums, they
were plainly tumble to pay the larger 'urn of 20s. They had
stated their utter inability to pay the ss. and the 35., aid when
having thus shown their inability they were, against all law
and reason, sent to prison for a month with hard
labour, a punishment which could be inflicted on no man in
this country, without a man had committed some crime of so
infamous a character as to take it out of the common class
of misdemeanours. This was the first time that ever he had
heard that debt was to be treated by the laws of England ce
a crime. He was aware that there was an Act, the Act of the
18th George 111. c. 19, by which a power was given to
magistrates to . commit anyone to prison for one month
for the non payment of the costs which had been awarded
to an irjured patty. But in this case all such power
had been exceeded ; and when these persons declared their
poverty—when they had stated their inability to pay the
ss. 4d in the first instance, they had, in the exercise of their
power, committed them to prison. Those magistrates might
have acted discreetly, they might have acted legally, nay,
he would even go so far as to allow that, deep
as the sarcasm might appear, they might even have
acted humanely. Of their conduct in the mere committal he
would not complain, but there was one thing of which he
did complain, one thing which he would confide not to their
Lordships, but to his noble Friend on the Woolsack, and that
Vas the committal without a hearing. He understood
that those magistrates were highly respectable
individuals, but he would tell them—he would tell any man—
he would tell every man, that no respectability, however great,
could place any man so high, be he lawman or he he layman, as
to lift him above the law. He must do his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary of the Home Department the jug ice
to say, that as soon as the matter was men-
tioned to him, he immediately relieved these men
from their imprisonment. But he thought that something
more than this was required, and he would leave it tohis Noble
Friend on the woolsack to say whether such men as those were
fit to be left in the administration of justice in this country.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that, if, after inquiry.
he found the conduct of these magistrates was such as it had
been represented, that. he ..hould feel it his duty to rem..ve them
from the Corornio.ion of the Peace.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that inquiry ought also to
be made to see if there was not some remedy for the injustice
they had suffered, and if rot, the soorer the law was altered
the better.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that, in a ease of in-
kustiee by a maaistrate, the inju ed party was entitled to
remedy by an action.
The Earl of CL AR'''. presented a pri.ion from the parochial
schoolmasters of the parish of Aueiterardcr, in Perthshire,
praying fur an increased remunerattoa.

income-tax, would amount to 47.900,0001., so that ther
would be a deficiency in 1846 of 1,740,(.001. Against that
sum there was to be see two quirter receipts from the
property tax, which would amount to 2,6C10,0001.
There would alio he a sum of 6(10,0 01. which they
expected to receive in the coarse of the present year
from China. If, however, they added these sums to the ordi-
nary revenue of April 1846. the! e would be a surplus, sup-
posing no change took place, of 1,200,000/, But from what
he had stated it weuld be seen tha, that eurplue would entirely
be owing to the amount to ~teduc- ed fur'Jh:i ieenme-tax in the
c mrse of the pre ent year. and the tii:0.00,4. to come from
con,egitenth in ihe following y.iar upoing the pro-
perty-tax t i discontinue. and there w s n extra rdina, y in-
erea e in the ordinary receipts ef the corr. tr y, or a con,iderable
diminution in t•ft übl:c experdi are, that they would fled the
s.mie deficienc in the revenue in 1.447, which existed in 1542.

Th.., eft: et of renewing this tax would t.e to give tt e public
exchequer in April 1846, a surplus revenue of 4,560,0001 ,
which would enable the Government now to remove
certain burdens, which at the presilit moment pressed
with great severity uiion the prospe. ity of the country. Tkey
proposed to remove al, t'u.i,s an ran materials, kith
the exception of timber, an., They :ill the sten of eir,bliiig
the Breish matiuracitur-r to c. mrie itit lereiEnrrs
Thy No!,le Lord then went t th. various avid., upon
which the duty is to be tski ri off, comm• ntilik, as he went
along upim those which lie thought. most important. lii esp,et
to glass, it might he asked why they did not. choose soap in-
stead of this article; but, for his part, he confess. d they could
not well do without the amount of duty levied on so p w bile the
removal of the duty on glass would op. n a wide fell for the
operation of the manufactures of the country. The ..mount of
duty proposed to be taken off was 6,0; 01. Then <a ne the ar-
ticle of cotton wool, the duty upon which amounts to 650,000/,
This they proposed to take eff, as well a; to m.:ke
a reduction in the duty of sugar to the extent of 130,000/.
This would undoubtedly reduce the price of sugar, and
plane it within the reach of those who had never be n
able to enj .y it. before. These, and other reductions, when
deducted from the 4,000,000/. would still lave a surplus of
890,000/. It might be objected that these reductions would
result in making these imp.,sts permanent taxes, but he
thought the experience of the past justified the belCf that the
commercial affairs of the country would be so improved as to
enable them to disece.tinue the tax at the end of three years.
It they looked back they would find that not only had the
national debt been reduced, within the last three years, from
29,452.000/. to 28.365,000/. but that the value of our imposts h d
Increased by no less than 505,000/. Now, all this convinced
him that at the end of three years they would be in a position
to dispense with both the income and property-tax. The press
pect of eimmercial prosperity was such, if they might judge of
the steady progress of the last few year., as to bear them out in
the supposition they had just exp. essed. With .ut referring to
the two great subjects of reduction further, and for a moment
only touching upon wool and timber, he would lay before the
House a few statements of what m ght be considered the m'n
articles which had b--en affected by the reduction of 1842. The
first he would take was coffee, and he would state the gradual
increase which had been experienced in the consumption of
that article during the last five years. In 1840, the consump-
tion had been, according to the Cus om-house report.,
28,654,0001b5. ; for 1841, it was 28,370,000 lbs. ; for 1842,
28,593.0001b5. In 1843, 29,979.0r.;01h5. In 1844, 31,394,0110
lbs. Shoeing an increase of upwards of 2,700.0001b5. And be
would observe, that in 1842 the greatest quantity of coffee had
been consumed which had ever been known during any pre-
vious period. There was another article, which perhaps many
of their Lordships had never yet seen—CA laugh)—but he had
had an opportunity of not only seeing, but using it. and had
found it both nutritious and palatable, he meant chiccory.
Their Lerdshiys might smile, but it was well known that in
France coffee was seldom used without a dash of tesiccory.

without the income.tax, instead of a surplus, there
would. in 1846, absolutely be a deficiency.—(hear.) It
was evident that a surplus of 3,000 0001. or 4 000,000/. was
necessary. The Noble Mai quis opposite objected to the im-
position of this tax. because he said that he had an objection to
their imposition of this tax, and jet he wished that there
should be nn deficiency, that they might not have to say,
" score up hest. ss." Why the very first object which they
had in view in the imposition of this tax was to pay off the
score which she Government, of which the Noble Marquis
was a member, had run up; and by this tax they had not
only been able to pay off flat score, to Ihe tune of 70! ,0001.
El year, but at the same time to grant very large relief to the
e of the e,,utrry. So that this tax, which the Noble
Marq is so grievously complained of, had enabled them to in-
ere ee the conies:it, tion, and, at the same time, to check the
smuggler by re.eittitig dirks, which raised the article of tea,
for instance, to a price which induced the contraband
introduction of it. The consumption of that article had
increased fully one-fourth within the last five years. Again,
if they took the article of tobacco, they would find that the
reduction of the itut) upon tobacco had led to a very large in-
e ea-e .n the eensumptien of the article. In 1842 the quentity
intredluesd was 3,448,00e1b5. ; in 1843 it was 3,605.0001b5. ;
and in 184 lit was 3,863,0001bs So that it appeared the im-
r-ition of tlis tax had enabled them largely to relieve the
trade of !he country. They proposed no less a reduction than
3,800,000/., and the Noble Lord himself had stated that a
tytter selection of articles on which to remit duty could not be
made than that they had adopted. In the price of sugar they
had effected a larger reduction than was contemplated in the
celebrated scheme of the Noble Lord opposite. He had not
heard any one complain that the eritire reduction of the duty
on glass had given a great stimulus to the manufacture. If
they had not taken the duty off glass the manufacture would
year by year have gradually decreased, and the duty upon it
could not have been relied upon as a source of revenue. He
had not heard, even in the daily papers or anywhere else, still
less in their Lordship's )louse, that the relief which they had
granted was tete which would not largely tend to promote
the cemtnerce of the country and promote the con-
sumption and the comfort of the people.—( Hear. )
Another important tax ehieh had been passed over by the
Noble Lord was the 600,0001. imposed on the importation of
raw cotton. Was there a more objectionable tax than that ? It
pressed heaeily .m the manufacturer, and its removal had long
been looked for by the country. Well, then, without the im-
position of an income-tax the Goverriment could never have
ventured upon these important financial changes. It was
said, that the tax w s popular with those who did not pay it,
but those who spoke in those terms forgot that all our former
systems of taxation had reached their maximum, and those
upon whom they were imposed were unable to bear thews.
Were the Government to blame, then, for removing the
burden of the chief taxes to those who were well able to
bear them ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis had
said that the property-tax was not only grossly unjust in
princip:e but grossly unequal of its operation. Why,
where could they find a tax which was not in some respects
unequal in its operation ? All taxation must bear differently
upon those who have a permanent and those who have only a
temporary interest in property, and in these two instances he
could hardly see how the tax could operate with any great
degree of inequality. If the tax were raised now to remove a
debt some tenor twenty years hence he should agree with the
Noble Marquis in thinking it was partial and unjust to tax an
annuitant, but where the tax was made to meet the current

expen•es of the current year, and levied upon the current
income of an individual, he could not comprehend

the argument which went to show that the tax was either
unequal or partial in its operation. At all events, he should
sit down convinced that a property-tax was the best and the
most equitable which they could impose upon the nation, for
removing what appeared to him to be a permanent deficiency
in the revenue.

He did not mean to say, that the coffee might not be
as well without it, but the introduction of chiccory reduced
the expense, and did not in the least degree affect the aroma.
The introduction of chiccory in 1840 was 1,440,000 lbs. ; in
1841, 1,921,000 lbs. ; in 1842, 2,268,000 lbs. ; in 1843,
2,448,000 lbs. ; and in 1844, 3,164,000 bs. Cocoa also, which
was an article of much request in some ranks of society, had in-
creased 2,591;,0001b5. within the last five years. Now it might
be supposed that. the increase of these articles might have been
made at the expense of tea, which was used for si-
milar purposes as the articles he had just
named. But what was the fact ? In 1840 the
quantity of tea introduced was 32,2.5 ',MO lbs. In
1841, 36.675,000 bs. In le4`2, 37.353,0001h0 In 1943.
4 .293 0001 h,; and in 1844, 4 . ,366.Citifib-.. showing an in-
crease in 1845 ..f no less than 4 7e2 0.4)1tt5., since the time
that the reduction t oi.k place, and not less .hut one-fourth of
the white quantity that had ben computed, if th whole five
were to be taken into con-iperation. As might naturally be
expected, there had been a corretponding inerea-e in the etin
-ump lion of sugar. Not only bad the comfort of the poop'e
been added to. but there had been a great advantage ob ained
in obviating the adulteration .If this article, which had been 1.-ng
effected by all sorts of articles. It ,houtd be rentealb:•red that
this "as an inerea,e in consumption, accompanied by no arti-
fice, without any undue extension of the currency, and indeed
in the face of a law which teat been passed for restraining t':e
amount, and which had effec ustly scented it from any depre-
ciation in its value. It was evident, therefore, that this was a
solid increase, and that they might rein—and they mi.-ibt safely
rely—on the increase of the Customs' duties for emit ing them
to do away, at the end of three years, with this obj etiern-,ble
and moat ungracious tax. He. therefore, thought he might.
safely call upon their Lordships to consent to the third reading
of the Bill.

Lord MONTEAGLE reminded their Lordships that, when
the nati3nal debt was contracted, the assessed property of the
country amounted to 56,000,0001. Since then it had increased
to 166.0,0, 001.; and they were now about to tax parties to
meet the charges of a debt, from which those parties
had never derived any interest.—(Hear.) He had heard
many ingenious calculations, based upon the resources of this
country, but he was convinced of this, the resources of the
country had never been greater whether in a time of war or
peace than they were now. He was inclined to praise some of
the s.lections which the Government had made in the articles
upon which they proposed to remove the duty. The article
or glass was a very important one, and he had no
doubt great benefits would result to the country from the re-
moval of the tax hitherto imposed upon it. Hut they were
n t to discuss a property-tsx in a commercial point of view.
It was in a financial point of view they must examine into it,
and he moat •ay, looking at it in this 11;:ht, it was founded upon
a fallaciuus and dangerous doctrine which was calculated to
cause great nuschier out of doors if not to jeopardise the peace
of the e,uirry. There never was a more needless sacrifice of
revenue than the giving up of the auction duties. The sacri-
fice had not been called fur. Hnw could it be expected that
the reseal ef the exc.se duties would promote consumption so
ranch as to compensate for the losses to the revenue? The Go-
vernmei.t of a future day would he compelled to yield to the
der ,nds of the country. He believed that the labourers of the
country were as much interested in opposing this tax as the
richest and most fully endowed. When he com-
pared the estimates of the year 1b35, under the
same !rime Minister, with the estimates of the present year,
he could not help stating that no good reason had been given
for the increase. With respect to the sugar duties, he could
see no reason for the measures of the Government. All the
authorities of any value upon the question, were against the
arguments all-ged by the Government in favour of its own
measure. With respect to sugar you lose a million and a
half; the President of the Board of Trade stated the sum of
two millions. The very classification, the very system, was
adopted from the paper prepared by Mr. Hume, which had
called a rigmarole paper. They lost by the timber duties up-
wards of 600,0001., and by the sugar that which made
up a loss of two millions and a half. The way in which they
had dealt with corn had diminished their resources. In corn,

THE OREGON QUESTION.
The Earl of CL ARE NDON, in rising to erive notice of
his motion on the suhject of the Oregon territory, said, he
had no wish to interfere wish any of the rules which their
Lordships had thought fit to lay down, for their guidance,
although he thought that a little convenience might be sacri-
ficed, in order to obtain infarmation from the Government for
the satisfaction of the no: ion at large. He wished that certain
papers should be laid on the table respecting negotiations with
the United States, in reference to Texas and the Oregon
territory. He wished to direct the attention of the Noble Lord
opposite to that one part of the President's speech which re-
ferred to the annexation of Texas. He was astonished that
a
any body of men should have given their sanctaioti such
so
measure, so deeply injurious to the cause of h uinnhioh at present
i to y,
calculated to ruffle those amicable relations, "'
existed between that country and the United States. With
respect to the Oregon territory, he thought the language in the
speech of the President betrayed a studied neglect and a want
of courtesy to other nations. Not only was no allusion made
to this country, but the President took it for granted that the
American claims to the Oregon territory were clear and uncon •
tradicted. He did not think that was a fitting opportunity for
discussing the British claims to the Oregon territory, but,
nevertheless, with the permission of their Lordships, he would
17 x few words upon this part of the subject, in order to ren-
'r c'ore intelligible the character and.extent of the President's
letter. If priority of discovery could constitute title, this
er"ntrY had the strongest claim to the territory, for Sir
Lrancis Drake was the first who visited that country. In 1578
ie found the land unappropriated, and he pook possession of it.
But this did not constitute the British claim. In 1792, the
light of the British claim of the territory was acknowledged by
the United States, and in 1813 the Hudson Bay Company esta-
blished an extensive fishery and regulated the colony by Bri-
tish laws. The claims of America were originally from the sale
to them by Napoleon of Louisiana, and their boundary was
afterwards settled by a treaty between Spain and the United
States. it was, therefore, the duty of Government to main-
tain their rights westward of the Rocky Mountains ; and if the
question could not be amicably netted, he trusted the Govern-
ment would take such steps as might be thought necessary for
vindicating the national honour of the country.
Lord ABERDEEN said, if he followed his own inclination,
he should at once lay all the papers relating to this matter on
their Lordships' table, and he was sure they would give satis-
faction to their Lordships and the country. But the time,
he thought, had not et arrived fur his adopting that course.
He could assure the House and the Noble Lord that the inte-
ergs of the country had not been neglected, at the same time
that every justice was done, and would be done by her Ma-
jesty's Government, to meet the fair demands of other par-
ties.—( Hear, hear.) Their Lordships might be assured that
the public interest would not be neglected.—( Hear.) It was
necessary to state that the negotiations upon this subject were
commenced immediately after the signing of the treaty of
Washington, by his Noble Friend, Lord Ashburton. Before
he went into a statement of the negotiation. he wished to draw
the attention of the House to the last act of the late Presi eat
That functionary, in December last, inform. d toe Congress that
the negotiations on this subject were proceeding in the most ami-
cable spirit.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Lord Aberdeen ) thought
that the late President had gone somewhat too far when he
spoke so strongly of the amciable spirit in which the negotia-
tions were carried on. But however that was the la.t official
declaration on the part of the American Government—tor the
inaugural address of the new President had no official au-
thority—it was addressed to the pe -pie, not to the Congress.
The treaty now in force could not be annulled wilhout
twelve months' notice upon either side. The American
Congress would not meet until December next, and the no-
tice of departure from :he t,rms of the treaty could not be
given before that tone. Th re was, taerefore, 110 public
ground of necessity for the preduct on of the papers desinal
by his Noble Fr:end. At the some time he was aware that,
in other places, he had been accused of makiog unaecessary
concessions, and of giving up that high tone which, as the
Alinister of the British empi-e, he was bound to maintain.
He was aware, indeed, that in some places the most unreserved
language had been applied to his conduct. He had been termed
das'ardly, mean, cowardly, and everything that
indicated an inadequate discharge of the duties of the office
which he had the humour to fill. But he knew how these epi-
theta were to be translated. He knew that they were to be
translated as indicative of conduct that was just, honourable,
and true. And he did say, that he was not oily indifferent to
these epithets when applied to himself, but that he was satisfied
that they would prove complimentary to himself. He did not
hesitate to say, that her M.ijesty's Government fully e-tanated
the blessings of peace ; and no men would make greater sacri-
fice to preserve it than themselves. He believed that war was
not only the greatest crime, but the greatest folly which a
country could commit, if it were unjustly entered into. He
was inclined to conclude with a moral writer, that it was the
greatest proof of he natural fledravity of human nature, that war
Wit sometimes lawful. Fortunately for this country, we need
tot be so very sensitive on the point of honour, as some people
t.ippeared to be.—(Hear, hear.) We need not seek the " bub-
ble reputation in the cannon's mouth," or, indeed, anywhere
else. Our position, our past acts, our resources, and well-
known ability to bring those resources into play, placed us far
above any fear of any imputation on the point of honour.—
(Hear, hear.) But he believed that we had rights which were
Clear and innisputable. They were quite ready to make every
concession which would avoid the necessity of any extreme
Course, but if they were compelled to take it, they were content
rest upon these rights, and, with the blessing of God and the
assistance of their Lordships, he believed they were fully pre.
Pared and determined to maintain them.
BASTARDY-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
911 the motion of Lord STANLEY, the order for the Com-
miut_t_te.e on this Bill, which stood for to-day, was discharged, and
—"non), next was appointed in its stead.
thefor
rlhe Duke of RICHMOND said that as it was impossible
Bill t appeals of those parties who were aggrieved under this
0 be heard at the next quarter sessions, he trusted that
I°lne provision would be made for the payment of their
expenses.

On the motion that the Bill be read a third time,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said there were three
reasons which would justify the imposition of ao income-tax—
the existence and long c•mtinuance of a formidable war, the
still greater importance of inter ine commotion and civil broil,
and the third, a defi,iency in the revenue, whisk they had no
other means to supply. it was on the first of these reasons
that Mr. Pitt, Lord Grenville, and Lord Seymour, had intro-
duced it. It was on the third that Sir Robert Peel had pro-
posed it to Parliament in 18-12. Ho saw no reason to hope,
even from the statement of his Noble Friend, that they would
be able to remit the tax at the end of the three years. He
feared, indeed, there was some ulterior reason f it. the propo.i-

tion of the tax and that it was intended to substitute this system
of taxation for that indirect mode which had hitherto prevailed.
He found, upon the statement of the Government, that the
revenue, with the arrears of the property-tax, would be fifty-
nine millions. He disclaimed any desire to stint the public
service of the country. He did nut complain of the increase of
estimates for the public service. He would be still less dis-

sugar, and ti ber, there appeared to be a fatality ' • and it
seemed by the pamphlet which Mr. Gladstone had written,
that there was r. reduction of one-half the amount of duty.

He was quite prepared to discuss the question as one of
economical reience, and he thought that on that principle the

Government had mistaken the course they ought to pursu..
Lord ASHBURT, .N said, his Noble Friend had not an-
swered his objection, for he thought the principle of a
sinking fund, of that which was equivalent to a sinking fund,
was the diminution of the principal, and not merely the in-
terest of a debt. _

posed to re fuse any grant of public money for the support of
that arm of the public service, the navy. There was a pro-
position of the Government which gave him unqualified plea-
sure—that was the increased grant for the education of the
Catholic priesthood in Ireland. He looked with entire satis-
faction upon the measures which the Government had adopted
to release industry Still, a- he thought, raiinisters ought to be
sincere in their declaration that the property-tax was only
temporary, they should at the same time take measures which
would enable them to repeal it. One of the great objections
of the present Prime Minister to the repeal of the malt-tax
was, that it would lead to the imposition of a property-tax in
time of peace. In seven years afterwards the same Right Hon.
Baronet, being at the head of the most powerful party in the
country, declared that he would not attempt to make up the
deficiency of the revenue by the imposition
of a property-tax.
He did not agree with the Prime Minister in thinking that
there were not other means by which the deficiency could be
made up with greater benefit to the public. He had heard,
as welt as his Noble Friend opposite, that there were
persons who called themselves " philosophers," and who
'° liked " this tax on account of its equality. But he
would ask their Lordships could they imagine anything
more unequal than the operation of this tax ? The
tax was imposed upon persons whose income depended
almost entirely upon their state of health. Was it Just to
subject them to the same amount of taxation as persons who
derived their income from fixed property? Again, if he came
to the funds, he might ask were all the persons who had pro.
perty in the funds to b, dealt with alike? The mere fact that
a certain amount of property stood in a man's name in the
books at the bank was not suffirient to show that he enjoyed
that property. So also was it with respect to landed property.
The declared income of a man from landed propert t was rot a
fair index of his means of paying taxes.—( Hear, hear.) He
would not deny that in direct taxation there
was this advantage, that every man would know what
he was eontributine t the necessities of the State. But the
difficulties in the way of justly apportioning an income-tax
were nut to be obviated by any scheme which he had ever
heard propoueded. El,• would not propose the entire rejection
of the Bill, which, however, he looked upon, atter all, a a Bill
for ultimately taxing labour ; burr h- hoped their Lordships
would modify its ere,sure. He would not objec so strongly to
the Bill, as a temporary moa.ure, it he saw it accomeasoed by
other measures which woud enable the Government. to dis-
pense with it at the end of three years.—( Hear.) It had been
said that thi: tax •vas popular. itut ,here had been no proof
that it was popular exeept with those alio had not to p,y Ir.—
( Hear. and a lough.) He did not believe that the country
would I e reconciled to the tax, acid he hoped that Parliament
would find the means of inducing the Government to abat.don
it at the end ref three years.
Lord AShBU it TON said that the present discussion af-
forded him an pportunity of stating the grounds upon which
he had the misfortune to differ with the most prominent mem-
bers of both parties in Parliament and the country. He. how-
ever, agreed with the Nob e Lord who had ju-t sat down in
condemning the income-tax as a permanent impost. He re-
ferred to a passage in the books of Mr. M`Culloch, in which
that economic philosopher had shown that it would be great in-
justice to subject income from land to a peculiar tax, as that
would be a bar to all improvement. Capital was the chief in-
gredient in the improvement of a nation, and any tax upon ca-
pital—whether that capital was represented b) land or by raw
material of any other kind—or engaged in commerce—was
inevitably a cheek upon improvement. He agreed
with the Noble Lord opposite, that a tax upon income
should only be resorted to in times of great emergency.
—( Hear, hear.) In the whole of the financial arrangements
of the Government the great matter which he regisited was
their inattention to the debt of the country. That was the
great incubus upon the in •ustry of the country. Sur, ly it
should have been the duty of the Government—of every succeed-
ing Government—to relieve the country from that heavy
weight. Whilst the debt remained in its present amount,
what resource would the country have if a war arose ? Nothing
co ld be doge but borrow.—( Hear, and a laugh) The country
could only do as Falstaff did in the tavern—" score up." For
his part he should never feel comfortable unless he saw some
tax imposed for the purpose of grappling with the debt. That
was a comfort which, at his time of life, he could scarcely hope
to enjoy.—( A laugh.) He had, however, great happiness in
saying that, in the whole course of his long life, he had never set n
the country in a happier state of quiet and comfort. There was not
a speck in the horizon, except in the small territory of Oregon.
—( A laugh.) Yet, he could not but express his regret that
nothing was done to get rid of the debt. He would not deny
that the sinking tund had failed to a great extent of its object,
but it ought to have been sustained as a means of reducing the
amount of the debt, and of facilitating the system of borrowing,
if a resort to that system should become necessary. This was
a year of.unexampled prosperity Nothing could be a greater
mistake than to suppose that the laws of any Government can
prevent those alterations which will assuredly ever he experi-
enced in coinmereial affairs. With respect to the banking
measures for which his Noble Friend had taken so much credit,
he thought that they might possibly have done no harm. But
his great objection was to Vie disposal of the surplus, and he
thought the better plan would be to prevent any surplus at a
future period.
Lord STANLEY-said that he thought that his Noble Friend
had hardly done justice to the efforts which had been
made by her Majesty's Government. His Noble Friend
had complained that his Right Honourable Friend
at the head of the Treasury had made no effectual relief for
the pressure of the debt. It might be true that no actual re-
duction in the amount of the debt had made place, but. the in-
terest of the debt in 1828 was upwards of 32,000.000/., and
now it was only 28,000 000/. ,• and here there was a reduc-
tion of not less than 4,0(10,0001., which was equal to not less
than 1,000,000/. Yet this was not all, for by a burden with
which they had saddled themselves now for the benefit of
the future, in 1"54, by the cessation of the terminable
annuities, there would be a reduction of ab me 650,00 I/ in
the annual interest. I o 1864 there woalo b:, a reduc•ton rue-
the • by the cess tine of the long annuities of above 1.2 0 00n/.
a year ; and is, 1/.435 there would he a stair further reduction
of above 200,010/. a year, and he thought that this was a re-
duction which went very largely is reduce the debt. But his
Noble Friend had said that he had no objection to a surplus at
present, but he dui object to the imposition of that tax by
which the surplus was created. Why, it was a fact. well
known, that his Right Honourable Friend at. the
bead of the Government ba4 clearly ehown that,

The Duke of RICHMOND said that he did not. object so
much to the vote, as to the appropriation of the funds which
are to be supplied by it. His Noble Friend had allowed, that
he was totally ignorant of the nature of some of the items in
the list of duties which he was prepared to reduce. Now, he
thought, that if reduction were to be made, it ought to be
made in some of the articles in which benefits
would accrue to the agricultural interests..--( Hear. )
But what did they do? They imposed a rate upon a farmer,
so that if he had 3001. a year rent, they taxed him after the
rate of obtaining 150/. profit—but what was the case? An in-
dividual who had last year had an interview with Sir Robert
Peel, had stated that, in 1843, he had lost 6001., and in 1844
he had lost 7001. He was assured that the distress in the
country had been occasioned by the measures of the last three
years. The Right Hon. Baronet had come into office on the
supposition that the agricultural interest would be taken care
of; but he would be glad to know what would be the opinion
now, if the country were called upon to express it. One thing
surprised him, that every body talked against the Bill, but
every one resolved to vote for it. This was very strange,
but still it was a fact, that without the tax they
would not have the surplus which appeared requisite for the
necessities of the country.
Lord BROUGHAM complained that the debate had beers a
most wearisome one, and he thought it was a bad system to
use so many figures in speaking of a subject like this. He had
waited an hour and a half in anticipation of this debate, but
they had heard all about everything but the precise point in
question. It reminded him of an anecdote of a great states-
man, who had expended, like all other Chancellors and ex-
Chancellors of the Exchequer, a great deal of labour in getting
together a series of calculations, and he went to Lord Lauder-
dale, who advised him to throw his figures altogether over-
board, just as he would throw physic to the dogs. The Noble
ex-Chancellor was, of tourse, in an agony of disappointment,
but stid the advice was good, and if it hail been followed, it
might have saved a good deal °f the wearisomeness of this
debate. He must say that, notwithstanding the objections to
this tax, still he was prepared to vote for it, as he had
dune in the first instance for the first three years on
tne ground of necessity ; and in the second instance on the
ground of something very like necessity. In the abstract, and
indeed in practice, these were great objections to the imps,-
sition of a pro ,erty-tax, especially for a permanency. That
there were objections also to in-irect taxes, he was perfectly
aware ; any attempt to press upon the mean, of consumption
must press up in the enjoyments of those classes to whom the
comterts thus restricted were everything. Yet, notw iths' and-
mg this he still deemed it necessary to refute the supposition
that. this tax, or indeed, any direct tax, could fall equally on
prole rty. It was one of the essential elements of property
that it should be unequal, and he thought that when the ima-
gination of his Noble Friend was inclined to be active, it would
nut be a bad plan if he were to call his judgment into his aid to
render his lucubrations as useful as the detail of them was effective.
He regretted that Mr. Pitt did not take, in the time of the
war, long annuities, instead of contracting an almost lasting
debt. If that had been done the country would not new have
been in such a condition as to render either an income or a

property-tax necessary. Improvements might be introduced
into the Bill under discussion, but he thought the country
would bear the irconvenience of the measure in its present
state, fully relying upon the intention of Govern-
ment to discontinue it at the expiration of three years.
The country he was convinced would never object to an income-
tax in a time of war, or when large funds were required to de-
f. nd its honour. But God forbid that the present peace should
be disturbed ; but knowing the frailty and vicissitudes of hu-
manity, he could not conceal irom himself that a time might
come when ii might be necessary for the country in defence of
its rights or its honour to resort to arms, and then he was
satisfied the people would cheerfully pay not only
an inc tine-tax, amounting to three, but to ten per cent.
He ti usted that the sentiments he had seen in the President's
message would be repudiated by the American people; but if
they were not, he retied upon the British Government's adopt-
ing measures to vindicate the national honour, and they might
depend upon England contributing a liberal income and pro-
perty-tax to aid them in doing so. Should, however, no extra-
ordinary steps be necessary, it was the duty of Government to
keep the tax down as much as possible; and should it be found
necessary to continue it at the expiration of the three years,
such modifications ought to be introduced into it as would make
it less inquisitorial and less painful to the great body of the
people.
The Marquis of NORNI A NBY had strong objections to the
continuance of the preperty-tax, because sanctioning it a
second time looked very much like making it a permanent tax.
At the termination of the Chinese war, it was held out to them
that the increase it would occasion to the commerce of the
country would have the effect of removing the income and
property-taxes, and he could see no reason why this principle
should not be now fulfilled. He did not think that the other
deductions of taxation were equivalent to the increase of impost
upon this tax. He, therefore, opposed the proposition of the
Government, and would say " non-content.'
The Earl tit' RADNOR would also say "non-content" to
the imposition of this tax, because it was unequal, unjust, and
inquisitorial, in its operation. lie contended that, in all
seasons of agricultural depression, the laws were chiefly in
fault. He objected to the tax because it was unjust and
oppressive. He would not object to an income.tax it it were
fairly apportioned. He did not think that it could be so. But
he was convinced that it e,uld not be brought forward in a
more objectionable -hape than the present.
The Duke of RICHMOND moved an amendment, as a
rider to the Bill, " that, in the event of farmers suffering a loss
through a bad harvest, they should have a power of appeal
against the assessment of the tax.
Lord STANLEY thought the Noble Lord's proposition un-
reasonable, because it was impossible to make such distinction.
The Duke of RICHMOND would rather have the inquisitorial
power than the real loss. He objected that they were obliged
to ascertain their losses. and he thought it very hard if a man
incur, eil a loss that he should pay as if it were profit. He
would not divide the House upon it, because he thought it
would he useless to do so. Yet he knew that it was competent
for them to alter a money bill, and, with the present power of
the Government, he was convinced that the Right Hon.
Rtronet at the head of the Treasury would be very well able to
make any alteration he pleased in the Bill.
The Marvis of NORMANBY said that he agreed with
the Noble Duke that thin was the csowning inipity of the

ICME-TAX
The Earl of RIPON
s Naid O
it had been• his lot in 1842 to pro-
inn", an Act to their Lordships for the iinposition of a tax upon
n'eome. Ile deemed it then a duty on behalf of her Majesty's
Government to enter into considerable detail to show the
reasons why they proposed it. He did not conceive it was
necessary to go to the same extent and variety of explanation
uPen the present occasion. But he was aware that some
rnearts were necessary to induce their Lordships to continue
9iat
into tax three years longer. It was not now requisite to enter
Inexany lengthened argument to prove that it was wise and
pedient to conduct the business of the countryun with a de-
neient revenue.
!object Ile had on a previous occasion gone into that
at some consitleralla length. The House passed the
Income-
deemed
calculated to supply the deficiency in the
• renue.—(Hear, hear.) It would be necessary for him
..
to state, first, what the condition of the revenue was
th fore the tax was P asset!, as compared with the revenue during
R e succeeding years. The tag their
their Lordships were awa.e,
reve cas passed its 184'1, in which year these was a defiei,•ney in the
ue to the amouct of 2,139,000/. On the sth of April,
1843, they had realised no surplus ; but in 1844, when they
had ftur complete quarters, the tax produced to Government
The sum of 5,356,000/, giving a surplus of 2.750,000/. in the
comae of the preceding year. If they did not renew this tax,
ethat would be the state of the public Exchequer in 1846? In
the Year ending thp 5.h April, I-16, the estimated expendi-
ture of the country would be 49,643,0_01., including all the
supplies voted for the use of the army and navy. The ordi-
nary revenue of the country, supposing they did not renew the

THE SITN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, APRIL 5, 1845.

Bill ; and though he was among the non-contents of the Bill
he would not divide the House on this occasion.
The amendment was then put and negatived. and the House
adjourned.

110 USE OF COMMONS, April 4.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.
The Newcastle-on-Tyne Coal Turn Bill, the Glasgow and
Shots Road Bill, the Glasgow Bridges Bill, the York Road
Bill, the Thames Waterworks Bill, the St. Helen's Canal Bill,
the St. Helen's Improvement Bill, the Blackburn Waterworks
Bill, the Dublin an.' Drogheda Railway Bill. the Wolverhamp-
ten Waterworks Bill, the Enniskillen and Dundalk Railway
Bill, and the Harrogate and Ripon Junction Railway Bill, were
severally read a second time.
Mr. T. DUN COMBE gave notice that he should, on the
motion for the third reading of the last of these Bills, move
that it be read a third time that day six. months.
LIVERPOOL AND BURY RAILWAY.
The Bill for this railway was brought in and read a first
time, on the motion of the Earl of LISTOWEL.
SPARROWS lIERINE ROAD.
The Bill for this road was read a third time and passed.
LOWESTOFF RAILWAY AND HARBOUR.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com•
mitted.

GRANT TO MAYNOOTH.
Mr. Parnell, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Hamilton, Col. Acton,
Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Stuart Wortley, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Divett,
Mr. Palmer, Dr. Bowring, and several other Hon. Members
presented petitions from various places, against any additional
grant to Nlaynnoth.
CHURCH EDUCATION.
Mr. BATESON presented a petition from the county of
Derry, in favour of the grant for Church education in Ireland.
JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.
Dr. BO WRING presented a petition from the Unitarians of
Bolton in favour of this Bill, and praying the House nut to
throw impediments in its way, but to still further extend the
spirit of toleration which had dictated it.
SAWYERS.
Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from the sawyers of Bir-
mingham complaining of the present system of importing from
America, into this country. ready-cut boards, free of duty, and
praying the House to appoint a select committee to inquire
into its operation upon the operative sawyers of the country.
Mr. COLVILE presented several petitions from Derbyshire
against the grant to the College of Maynooth.
The Stonechurch Road Bill was read a second time.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL inquired if a correspondence had
taken place in respect to a provisional arrangement between
the Colonial-office and Lord Sydenham?
Mr. HOPE said there had been a correspondence with
respect to the disputed territory.
Mr. HUNIE said that all dispatches connected with this
dispute ought to he laid on the table of the House.
Srl ROBERT PEEL said, if the documents could be pre-
sented without any injury to the public service, he had no .113-
objection to their production ; but this matter having been
settled between this country and the United States, he did not
see why they should be produced. He did not think any
public object would be answered by their produc: ion, but if the
Noble Lord wished for any particular papers which could be
produced without detriment, he should have them.
BRAZILS.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to ask a question of the
Right Hon. Baronet on the subject of the present state of our
relations with the Brazils. It was well known that we
had had a commercial treaty with that country which
had expired in the month of November last. Under the
provisions of the treaty British subjects residing in the
Brazils were entitled to certain privileges, which were not pos-
sessed by the Brazilians, in reference to the disposal of their
property by will, the English Consul taking care that in the
event of the death of a British subject his property went to his
heirs. That treaty expired in November ' • and it was the
general opinion that the privilges wh ch had been enjoyed by
British subjects had expired with it. A case had recently
a- isen in which considerable alarm had been felt as to the disposal
ef the property of British subjects dying in the Brazils, or dying
in this country, and leaving property in the Brazils. He wished
to ask the Right Hon. Baronet first, if the Government had
taken the matter into their consideration? Secondly, if Mr.
Hamilton had made any con.munication to them on this sub-
ject? And thirdly, if he could bold out any hopes that the
same privileges would be continued to British subjects in the
Brazils, which they had enjoyed previously to the expiration of
the treaty?
Sir. R. PEEL replied that it often happened that the mer-
chants of Liverpool and Manchester received earlier intelligence
of matters of this nature than was received by the Foreign-
office. The Government had not received any account of the
transaction to which the Hon. Gentleman referred, but he
would make this general statement that by the treaty which ex-
pired in 1844, on the death of any British subject in the Brazils
the administration of his effects devolved upon the British
Cowie and not upon the Brazilian authorities. Her Ma-
jesty's Government had made a proposition to the Brazilian
Government on the subject of the treaty, and that stipulation
was a part of the proposal which they had made.
THE ASHBURTON TREATY.
Lord PAL MERSTON did not think that the answer
which the Right Honourable Baronet had given to his
Honourable Friend the Member for Montrose on the sub-
ject of the extracts from the dispatches which had been
read by Lord Ashburton in another pla-e was altogether
satisfactory. He did not know exactly the extracts to which
his Hon. Friend had alluded, hut, from what he had heard, he
understood that Lord Ashburton had read elsewhere
some extracts from certain dispatches, for the pur-
pose of showing that some statement that had been
made by a member of that House (the Heuse of Commons)
was erroneous. Now he would assume that to be the fact—
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume)—and he would ask where did
Lord Ashburton get those dispatches?—( Cheers.) He must
have procured them either as a negotiator. in which
case they would be his own dispatches, either written by him
or sent to him, or they were dispatches which had been ob-
tained from the Foreign-office, or they were dispatches
which had been laid before Parliament. Ii they
were dispatches which had been laid before Parliament,
he had nothing more to say. The Noble Lord had a perfect
right to use them. If the dispatches were his own—were dis-
patches which had come into his power as a negotiator, having
been either written by him or to him—if these dispatches
had been furnished to him by the Government, then he would
say that, in the first case, he had no right to read his own dis-
patches without having obtained permission of the Government,
and if he had obtained that permission, or if they had been
furnished to him by the Foreign-office, then it was the inva-
riable practice of Parliament to lay those dispatches on the ta-
ble, in order that Parliament might know what they contained,
instead ef being only made acquainted merely with extracts
read in Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet would see that
it was not sufficient to say that the dispatches merely 'elated
to a question which had been settled. The question was not in
reality as to anything that had passed in the negotiations between
the United States and this country, but it was to see if cer-
tain statements made in that House by persons formerly hold-
ing official situations, were or were not erroneous,
and whether or not these statements had been
made for the purposes of deceiving. He wished
to ask another question. On the 16th July, he moved
for a return of the number of negroes landed in each year,
from 1815 downwards, on the coast of America. That return
the Right lion. Baronet acceded to with the greatest rea-
diness, and he (Lord Palmerston) could only wish that the
sante readiness had been shown in furnishing it. The Right
Hon. Baronet had told him that he had presented it, but this
was not his ( Lord Palmerstor.'s) return, but some other. He
trusted the Right Hon. Baronet would male inquiries into the
subject and see that the returns were presented.
Sir R. PEEL could not understand what dispatches the
Hon. Member for Montrose had alluded to. Of course, if it
were necessary, any dispatches which had been produced
in the other House of Parliament might be produced
to the House of Commons, (so we understood the Right Hon.
Baronet, but from the low tone of voice in which he spoke, and
the noise which prevailed in the House, we could scarcely hear
him.)
Mr. HUME said he had alluded to dispatches which had
been referred to by a Noble Lord in another place, which had
not been laid before that House.
Sir R. PEEL, with respect to the return alluded to by
the Noble Lord, could only say that it was very difficult to get
up such returns, but he would use every exertion to have this
one made.

MEDICAL BILL.
Mr. MANGLES said that he presented a petition last night
from a numerous body of medical practitioners in several towns
in Surrey, praying for some alteration in the Medical Reform
Bill introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department. He wished to put the House
in possession of the motives by which these gentlemen were
actuated.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Gentleman was clearly
out of order in attempting to refer to petitions when there was
no debate.
Mr. MANGLES said that if he were prevented from stat-
ing the opinions of those for whom he had acted, he would beg
to give notice that he should move certain amendments on the
Medical Reform Bill in Committee..
MAYNOOTH.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE presented two petitions against
any increase in the grant to the College of Maynooth. They
were numerously signed, and were untainted by any spirit of
exclusiveness; but they deemed that any ecclesiastical esta-
blishment was an unconstitutional imposition, and they prayed
the House to modify or reduce the grant.
HINDLEY said he had presented several petitions
against the grant to Maynooth last night, and he now had to
present seventy more. He would not trouble the House with
reading the titles of these petitions, for he did not expect they
would be of the smallest avail, but,4lie conceived that it was
necessary to present them in order to put the House in pos-
session of the feelings of the country. The parties who had
signed these petitions were not induced by any disposition to
the ‘• No Popery " cry, but because they conscientiously be-
lieved that any State support to ecclesiastical establishments
was bad in principle.
RAILWAYS.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY, seeing the Honourable
Member for Oxford in his place, begged to ask him when they
might expect a notification of the selection of Committees for
railways, and in what order they meant to classify the Bills.
Mr. ESTCOURT said that the day on which the House se-
parated before the recess, the 20th of March, was the very
earliest day on which any decision could be come to. It was of
course clear that some consideration was required after the House
met again before the result of that decision could be declared.
But h expected that the last would appear in the votes to-
morrow morning. With regard to the second portion of the
Hon. Member's question, it was impossible to say in what way
the Bills would be classified, fur their order must depend on
the business of the House.
Mr. DUNCOMBE gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he
would call attention to the Railway Department of the Board
of Trade, with a view of preventing their inflicting further
injury on both public and private interests.
On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL a return of the number
of apprentices who have attended at each of the schools esta-
blished in her Majesty's dock- yards, during the year ending
December 31, 18.1-1, NEW to.
ZEALAND.
Mr. FOSTER asked the Honourable Gentleman the
Under Secretary for the Colonies if he had any objection to
lay on the table of the House the Government dispatches
received from New Zealand on the lot inst. I
Mr. H OPE thought the House would agree with him that
these dispatches were for the information of Govern-
ment and not for the information of Parliament. At the
same time, however, he could state that these dispatches were
all ready, and he had no objection to lay such parts of them on
the table as the House might wish to see.
RAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION (SCOT.
LAND) BILL.
Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to cell the attention of the
Lord Advocate ts a report which had gone abroad, to the effect
that the Learned Lord had allowed an Hon. Member to add a
clause to the Railway Clauses Consolidation Bill of Scotland,
without giving any previous notice of its nature, and at a time
when the Bill was in its last stage, and there was
necessarily but a small attendance of Members in the
House. When he mentioned what the clause was,
he thought the House would agree with hint, that it was
one of considerable importance. The provision was no less
than this—that every future railway to be constructed in Scot-
land, should give an indemnity or guarantee to the landed pro-
prietors of Scotland for any loss they might sustain
through any turnpike- road being affected by the
construction of the line. It had created considerable
excitement in Scotland ; and he wished to know whether the
facts he had stated were correct?
The LORD
D into the ADVOCATE
relEsaatiing to England, and he did
not clause was similar to
one
not think the Committee bad sanctioned any unusual or unjust
clause. MR. AIAZZINI.
Sir C. NAPIER said that he perceived a statement in the
public newspaper declaring positively that Mr. Mazzini had
nothing at all to do with that order for the murder at Rodez,
which was alleged by the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department to have been signed by him. It appeared from
the statements in the paper that the order was a forgery, and
that Mr. Mazzini was not in France at the time the order was
made. He wished, therefore, to ask the I'tight Hon. Baronet
if he still maintained his charge, or whether. he was prepared
to follow the example of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury,
and make an apology to Mr. Mazzini ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that the Hon. and Gallant Officer
was not so obliging as to give him any notice of his intention
to put such a question. He should have thought that he would
have observed the ordinary rule of the House in such a matter.
But, as that rule had net been observed, he could scarcely be
expected to answer the question now. However, he would say
this, that he had seen letters written by Mr. Masaini, to which
the question of the Hon. and Gallant Officer referred ; and he
(Sir J. Graham) last night laid upon the table a the House,
by command of her Majesty, certain papers which bore di-
rectly upon this question. The House would remember that,
when he was making his statement to it upon this question,
he said distinctly that part of the accusation against Mr. Alaz-
zini did nut rest on official information, but on certain letters
which he ( Sir J. Graham) held in his hand.—( Hear, hear.)
He had heard that it was the intention of Mr. Mazzini to pro.
secure the Moniteur newspaper for an alleged libel contained in
that paper, but that he did not follow it up ; and he had also
heard that Mr. Mazzini did take an action against another
paper for the same, and that he had not succeeded in
proving_ the allegation. But he told the Hon. Member for
Finsbury that he had never seen those letters or papers, and,
therefore, could not tell what the nature of the accusation was.
—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham)
really knew nothing
more of the subject than this and what he had already stated,
except that he had heard that the accusation in the Moniteur
was ill-founded ; but he should now say. bee was bound to state
that he did not feel justified in declaring that there was no
foundation for the charge against Mr. Mazzini.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
Mr. VILLIERS begged to know when it was the intention
of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite to introduce the Bill for
the proposed increased grant to Maynooth ? The reason he
asked the question was because he had been requested by a
large body of Dissentors to put off the second reading of the
Bill for a fortnight.
the House in Committee last night, in favour of the Bill, Mr.
Greene had received directions toprepare it ;and the House
Sir R. PEEL said that, in consequence of the resolution of
.—(Opp.osition cheers.)
then fixed upon Friday next as the day upon which the second
and it would, therefore,
rreeeaediivneg
aofsethec,ant
dßirlleasdhionugldontaktheaptladeaey,
Mr. PLUMPTRE said he was requested to inquire whether
the time for the second reading of the Bill might not be ex-
tended beyond Friday next ?
LORD ASHBURTON AND LORD J. RUSSELL.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he wished to ask a question
of the Hon. Gentleman, the Under Secretary of the Colonies,
on a subject which was personal to himself. He had seen
existed between him and Lord within the last few hours a statement, purporting to have been
made by Lord Ashburton with regard to a speech made by him
(Lord John Russell) on elate occasion. He would say, in the
their political opinions had not
first place, that a friendship
Ash-
burton, which friendship began when that Noble
Lord and himself were of the same opinions in
with which they
politics—( Hear, hear, and a laugh)—and that the difference
gi nettetarerru bedpw
which ad taken place its
always met to-
good fortune to meet that Noble
henethveer was further along from his
Lord, and that n wish,
his pu
in the discharge
of
nkind bile duty, than to
say anything personally u
—(Hear.) In the course of the discussion on the navy
estimates a discussion, quite unexpected by him, arose with
regard to the treaty concluded. by Lord Ashburton with
America, That discussion was introduced by his Noble Friend
near him, and, in consequence of what had fallen from the
ciotrdwisaslith.yis
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he (Lord John Russell) had
referred to a matter which he conceived to be correctly stated,
as far as his recollection on the subject served. He had
said that he thought it was advisable there should be
some arrangement madeby which the forces of Great
Britain and America should occupy a certain position, which
should be the boundary between the two States.
For that purpose he bad instructed Lord Sydenham
to carry on negotiations with that object, with the con-
currence of his Noble Friend the Member for Tiverton.
Lord Sydenham informed him in his answer that he could not
obtain from Mr. Webster any terms other than terms by which
that part of the Madawaska settlement on the right bank of the
river St. John should be occupied by the two Powers. It was
clear that Lord Ashburton supposed he (Lord J. Russell) al-
luded to negotiations for apermanent settlement of the boundary,
whereas—and he thought it was sufficiently clear from what he
had said—he only alluded to a provisional arrangement to be
made between the two Governments. If it was the intention
of the Government to carry on any diplomatic negotiations,
they would, of course, dry
eon on by his Noble Friend,
and not himself, as the Noble Lard must have known.
All he wished to know was, if the Hon. Gentleman the Under-
Secretary for the Colonies, had received a copy
gave to
Lord Sydenham, and his answer to him ? He
spoke at the moment from memory, and did not anticipate
a dissuasion on what he then stated ; but the Noble Lord had
totally mistaken the whole transaction, for that Lord Syden-
ham could have made such observations seemed to him ( Lord
J. Russell) impossible. He wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman to produce the documents he had in reference to
this subject.
Mr. HOPE said he was not aware that the Noble Lord in-
tended to put this question. He would, however, make every
search for the rapers to which the Noble Lord referred.

BUENOS AYRES.
Mr. EWART wished to put a question to the Right Hon.
Baronet with reference to the affairs of Buenos Ayres and
Monte Video. His only object in doing so Ras the protection
of British property and the restoration of commerce. Since
he had ,I„st mentioned this subject he had understood, from
authority which he could not doubt, that the blockade had be-
come a general blockade of the town of Monte Video. He also
understood that the commerce on the river Plate had been pro-
hibited. He had also understood that duty had been levied on
foreign ships, and that an edict had been issued by the Go-
vernment of Buenos Ayres for suppressing the English, Scotch,
and Irish schools in that town. The question he had to ask
was,first, whether such measures had been taken as would en-
sure the safety of British property • and, secondly, whether
such measures were in progress as would restore the commerce
of that part of South America?
Sir R. PEEL could only make the same statement which
he had made sometime since, namely, that steps had been
taken by the British Minister in conjunction with the repre-
sentative of the Court of France to put an end to the unhappy
state of things to which the Hon. Gentleman referred. With
respect to the protection of British commerce he could state
that ample means existed in the river Plate for the protection
of British property and British subjects. There were six
ships of war in the river Plate. With respect to the schools
the Government had received no communication. The Bri-
tish and scotch subjects had a right to private schools for the
education of their children, and any edict prohibiting their
private schools would be met by an effectual remonstrance
made against the enforcement of that edict. The last thing
the Hon. Gentleman referred to was important, he said that
the Government of Buenos Ayres claimed the allegiance of
the British subjects. A foreigner born within the dominions
of her Majesty was a British-horn subject—if a subject of her
Majesty was horn out of Buenos Ayres, then he could not be
considered a Brazilian subject. But if the son of a British sub-
ject be born at Buenos Ayres then they had no right to object
to the application of that principle for which they themselves
contended. While he was entitled to the citizenship of
Buenos Ayres he was liable to the burthens of the State.
M AY NOO I. 11.
Sir It. INGLIS wished to ask the night Hon. Baronet
(Sir R Peel) if he intended to press the second reading of the
Bill referring to the Maynooth grant at the time now appointed
for it ?
Sir 11. PEEL said it was a matter of great importance that
the sense of the House should be taken on so important a
matter, but it was his desire that it should be read a second
time on Friday next.
THE OREGON TERRITORY QUESTION.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had a question of very
great importance to bring before the consideration of the
house, and he hoped he would, therefore, be pardoned if he
trespassed upon it for a short time. It was not his intention
to call in question either the general foreign policy of her Ma-
jesty's present Government, or of that which they had given
notice with respect to the particular question now before the
House ; but what he intended to do was, to bring before the
Legislature the question of the Government of the United
States in reference to the Oregon territory. His Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for Bath had intended to have
put the same question to the Government, but he did not do
so, expecting to have had a satisfactory explanation from the
Government; and he (Lord John Russell) would
have pursued the same course had it not been for
the inaugural addresses of the two Presidents of the
United States, by which it appeared it was intended to take
this question out of the ordinary course of diplomatic ques-
tions, and therefore it demanded more than ordinary consi-
deration from that House. Had this question been left be-
tween the Executive Government of this country, and the
Executive Government of the United States, as had been
the usual course, whatever might have been the result he
would have waited in silence, until the close of the proceed-
ing before he should have interfered.—(Hear, hear.) But if
he did not very much mistake, he believed he would be war-
ranted in saying, that the President of the United States
had, in the present instance, adopted a course entirely new—
( Hear)—a course which, if not met by something decisive
on the part of this country, threatened to overthrow all the
ordinary intercourse which should exist between the Execu-
tive Governments of the two nations, and leave the de-
cision of questions of great national importance
to be decided on the one hand by popular ad-
dresses from the Government to the people ; and
on the other, by a course which would put an end to all peace
and amity, and that national dignity which characterised the
existing intercourse, and which was so necessary to the due
discharge of that duty to the rights of the ieople of this coun-
try which the British Government had taken under their
charge.—( Hear, hear.) He should here mention—though he
would only do so as a passing allusion—that this message
pointed at that vast territory of the United States, the annexa-
tion of Texas, and of which he would not state the boundary,
as the limits remained still undefined ; but he would merely
say that that vast extent of territory was a most fruitful soil,
producing cotton and other articles used in this country, and
cultivated by slave labour, and extending, as it would no doubt
extend, over that portion of the country. He had alluded to
this part of the question only for the purpose of
showing that the present conduct of the Execu-
tive Government of the United States tended entirely to
its own territorial aggrandisement.—( Hear, hear.) He said
this because it was in direct contradiction of the political declara-
tions made by Mr. Webster, who had declared that the true
policy of the United States was that which would insure a good
understanding between the United States and all foreign coun-
tries, and at the same time advance the interest of their own.—
( Hear, hear.) But be that as it might, such a course had
since been departed from. In the next sentence of the message,
after declaring his intention, by all appropriate means, to con-
summate at the earliest period the annexation of Texas, the
President goes on with the following remarkable paragraph,
which I will read throughout. The paragraph is as ioDows :
" Nor will it become less my duty to assert and maintain,
by all constitutional means, the right of the United States to
that portion of our territory which lies beyond the rocky moun.
tains. Our title to the country of the Oregon is clear and un-
quest onable ; and already our people are preparing to perfect
that title by occupying it with their wives and children. —( Hear
hear.) About eighty years ago our people were confined on
the west by the ridge of the Alleghenies. Within that period
__within the lifetime, I might say, of some of my hearers—our
people increasing to many millions, have filled the eastern
valley of the Mississippi—adventurously ascended the Missouri
to its head springs, and are already engaged in establishing the
blessings of our Government in the valleys the rivers of which
flow into the Pacific. The world beholds the peaceful triumph
of the industry of our emigrants. It is our duty to protect them
wherever they may be upon our soil. The jurisdiction of our
laws, and the benefit of our public institutions, should be ex-
tended over them in the distant regions which they have se-
lected for their homes. The increasing facility of intercourse
will easily bring the States, of which the formation in that
put of our territory cannot be long delayed, vtithin the sphere