The Sun.
London, England, 1810-05-16 00:00:00

AMERICA.

Mr. WkIITBREAD added., that being on his legs,
and seeing in -hi, place the Right Hon. Gentleman
late Secretary of SiAe for Foreign Affairs;'he.would
say a few word, with reaped to the papers that had
been laid on, the table of the House relative to the
transaaions' between this Country and America.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had charged Mr. Er-
skine with having acted not only not in conformity
to his instruttions, but in direct contradtaion to
them—he bad charged him with having de'Patted
Widely, not frorn the spirit merely,.but tioni the
10er of !lose instrodioqs. The Right Hon, Gen-

tieman had said, that the question 'between them
was, whether he (Mr. Canning) had in the, face
of all Europe told a direa falsehood ? For
.his
pert, he was not aware that ail), foundation existed
for assuming that to be the question.. He was not
aware—
„ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER spoke to
order. If the Hon. Gentleman had no motion to
submit to the House such observations .as `those
which he was making were calculated only to pro-
duce an irregular discussion.
Mr. WHITBREAD 'allowed, that if the- House •
stood_on their preciSe forms, he would be-precluded,
from making any further observations ; but he,
threw himself on their indulgence, to 'which he
conceived himself to be the more entitled, as his
object was to shew why he Was desirous, on a con-
sideration of all the circumstances of the case, that
no motion should be made on-the subject to which
he had called their attention. He presumed that,
the. House would grant to the Right Hon. Gentlee
nein (Mr. -Canning) a similar liberty in reply.
What he would say, if he were permitted to do so,
was, that an attentively reading the papers to which
he had alluded, he did 'think that Mr. Erskine had
.net complied with the letter of his instruaions, and
he also thought that any individual by whom those
papers alorie were read would be justified in enter-
taining the opinion 'that Mr. Erskine.had not acted
up to the rpi,it of his instruCtions. But the justi-
fication of Mr. Erskine on this latter part of the
subject, and his complete vindication upon it, were
to be found in the letter. now before the world, by
which it appeared, that he had acted up to the
spirit of his instructions ; which were net drawn
witlea,view to the spirit existing in America, and
to one of the most important laws enaaed in that
country.—Had the Right 'Hen. Gentleiiian conti-
nued in office, and had the relative situation of this
country and America remained precisely the same,
he might have thought it desirable to stebmit. to
the House a, motion on the subject; but as he
understood that an intercourse was carrying on
between the two countries, he should be ex( eed-
ingly sorry to make any ' motion which might be
inexpedient, as interfering with that intercourse,
and which, as a justification of Mr.' Erskine, was
wholly unnecessary.
Mr. CANNING appealed to the justice of the
House, on the extraordinary situation in which he
had been plaCed by the condua -of the Hoe. - Gen-
tleman. On the last day before the holidays, the
Hon. Gentleman (having before in no obscure terms
hinted at the same thing), declared that he (Mr.
C.) had asserted that which, as not true, when, he
had stated that Mr. Erskine had acted contrary td his
instructions. After such A declaration he thought,
he was entitled in fairness to expect either that the
Hon. Gentleman should support his declaration by
arguments in a manly manner, or that if convinced
of its fallacy, he sheuld come forward and disa‘ow
it. 'ln stating it to have been represented that his
(Mr. Canning's) assertions were not true, he had
!lever meant to say that that expression was ap-
plied to him personally or in a way that affeaed
him as a gentleman, but only in his official capacity,
most importantly as
.affeaing the interests andeeha-
rafter of the cotintrye and also in another view.
(which he should ,be one of the-last to disregard,)
as traducing the charaaer of another individual.
Thaviridividoal he had neither traduced normisre--
presented. He bad ;Armed, and with the docu-
ments on the table be would re-affirm, that Mr.
Erskine bad ea-led in dire& contradiction to his in-
structions, and had deviated both from their letter
and from their spirit. Mr. Erskine had not only
done that which he was directed not to do, but
from that which he had beenAirected to do; he bad
abstaihed. This he was .ready to e.t.tblish by argu-
ment, whenever. Mr. E.o's friends or his own accusers
would give him an opportunity of doing so. If the
Hon. Gentlemen 'opposite were not more satisfied
with the documents than his speech that night slim-
ed him to be, lie would tell hint that he would ac-
cept of no compromise., Labouring as he had done
'under circumstances of peculiar provocation, .he had
carefully avoided using a single word of unkindess or
dtsrespea towards the individual who was the sub-
let' of the present observations. His business with
Mr. Erskine Was merely with a gentleman aetingub-;
der him its his official capacity. So far was he from
permitting any political differences to induce him to
advise the .recall of Mr. Erskine, or the substitution'
of another Minister in America, that he appealed to
Mr. Erskine himself, whether • those who felt most
warmly for his interest and honourcould have treat-
ed him with more kindness and indulgence ? But
whether Mr.. Erskine, to whom he was a stranger,
or the dearest friend that he had on earth, were
.in-
volved in a question conneated with the public in-
terest, he-never could 'allow any private considera-
tion to interfere with his public duty. He had 'ne-
ver withheld his official disapprobation from those
whom he most loved", if they appeared to him de-
servedly to incur it ; nor .had he ever.gone out Of his
way to express that dis ipprobation, because the in-'
dividual on whoneii fell waS•of political opinions
different irons his own. He %sus confident that' on.
that ground his charaCter and conduct while.in office
would bear the striaese examination. When, so
many months after the return of Mr. Erskine, dur-'
ing the whole of which time the grossesemisrepie-
sentaiions had been circulated, and when the do& u;,.
meats, by whiCh the whole affair was elucidated, lay
on the table, was it 'jest that he (Mr,
,Canning)
should be 'left without either ? On the one hand,,
the discussion would enable him himself to prove
the fallacy of the accusation preferred against hire;
or on the other nand, a frank 'avowal of- That fallacy
by his accusers. He returned the Honourable Gen-
tlenian no thanks for the little mixture of candour
in his. observations, The fact was, ihat the Henour-
able Gentleman could not, dare not, maintain his
original position, He was ready tomeet hint On the
subjedt whenever' he chose. That -was the sort of
reception which he gave to the overture of the felote.
Gentleman-to pass the matter by without debate.
If the Honourable :Gentleman shoull change his
mind,-he repeated than lie was ready to meet hiS
guments whenever he might clause to advance them ;
or the arguments of any other friend of the Hon.
Gentleman in question; respeCting 'whom he trusted
that no disrespectful expression had escaped him,
although- he felt it his duty to advise his Majesty
toucan a Minister who 'disobeyed his -instructions.
'He should have given his Majesty the same advice,
had that Minister been conneEted with him by the
closest ties of :,.friendship ,or consanguinity. He

begged pardon of the House for having presumed so
long.upon their indulgence, but trusted they woUld
recollea that the charge, which had been preferred
against him was of a most serious nature. He had
been accused not of official miscondu& merely, but
of corduEt which, if it-could be established, wOuld
prove him wholly unworthy of that office, the func-
tions of which it would in that case appear he had
grossly Misused. Whether the Honourable Gentle-
man brought forward the question or left it where
it was, he trusted that he should stand equal-
ly justified in the opinion of ' the House and the
country.
Mr.- WHITBREAD declared that he had offered no
compromise to the Right Hon. Gentleman. His
thanks le did not expeet,- and he was surprised at
his*allowing that he. (Mr. W.) had mixed'even a
little
.candour in his observations. He should not
bring forward any motion on the subjeffit, because he
did not think that Mr. Erskine required any more
to be said in his viudication. , If the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman, feeling that his own condua
required *further defence, and regardless of the
existing circumstances, between the two coun-
tries,. was disposed to . submit 'to the. House any
other .proposition, he should always be ready to
meet it.
1 Mr. -Moßßls:begged to say a few words, although
he was aware that a regard to the forms of the
House would render it impossible for him to go into
the subjed as he wished. He expressed his surprise
that the Right Honourable Gentleman treated the
queslion as having at any time assumed the aspect
of• a personal difference between that Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman and Mr. Erskine. He . had,
never so understood. it. He Certainly .did consider,
that, the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have laid
on the table all the documents upon this subje6i, or
that—

,
• Mr. CAmSING spol:e' to order. There was 'a
rtular charge .preferred against him of official
nits-
conduct in a discussion studiouSly divested *of the
• forms of debate. He had never treated the ques-
tion as one of
.a personal nature between Mr. Er-
shine and himself, brit—
• The SPEAKER here • interposed, and prevented
any further conversation. He expessed his hope
that what had occurred would ind,ce the House in
futbre not to entertain any discussion without a
distinct question before them, and would convince
them of the practical wisdom of their own rules
upon-that subject.
EAST INDIA COMPANY:
. On the motion of Mr. COEVEY, and after a few
observations from Mr. DUNOAS and Lord FOLK..
STONE, a copy was ordered to be laid before the
House of the exposition of the state of the East In-
dia Company's finances at home and abroad, sub-
mitted to the Committee of the House of Commons
appointed inlBoo, tOake into consideration the af- •
fairs of the East India Company ; together. with all.
the documents therein referred to. Also a copy of.
'the paper faid befite the same Committee during the
present Session of Parliament.
On the motion of Mr. ASTON, a number of pa-
pers relative to the Public and PI irate Trade in
India, were ordered to be. laid be.fore the. House. •
RETImSPECTiVE SURCHARGES,
Mr. GRCNFELL stated, that he had received many
complaints of the texatious mode in which the Pro-
perty Tax was levied, which showed that e mode
and system pursued produced 1110 ft dissatislaation
than the Tax itself. That he should, however,
content himself, with stating to the House one case
which formed the subjea of the motion he should
Make. He alluded to the Gregtree case.
,Ott that
occasion, when in the year 186.5 surcharge's .had
been made, and appeals heard opon,them, and the
money paid eleven months, the Surveyors made
surchargei'again on the same assesprent ; the Com-
missioners rejeeted'them, but the Board of Taxes
applied to the Court of Exchequer, which Court
confirmed the proceedings of the Commissioners,
and he did think, that that .Board should be laugh;
that such. a proceeding would-produce a very bad
spirit. _That the Commissioners vircre,•in,defending
their suit, subjected to more than 2001. .of expence.
He moved therefore, " that the Ce!respOndence
between the Board of Taxes and the Commissioners
of Gregtree be laid before the House."

The Two Members for Herefordshire both spoke
highly of the merits of the Commissioners of Greg-
tree, which was in their county, but thought that,
as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had'stated it
to be his intention to introduce a Bill. for regulat-
ing any thing that might be wrung, common.
candour required Jhat the House should, wait to see
this Bill. '

Mr. FOLEY would vote against the produElion of
the Opers at present; under an idea that the griev-
ances complained of would be redressed by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. If it should appear
hereafter that those grievances werenot done -away,
he would move fur a Committee to inquire into the
subject.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
in a few, days he should bring in a Bill in which a
clause would be introduced to limit the time within
which surcharges should be made, and Therefore the
only piactical,line complaie—l of by the Hon. Gen.;
tleman (Mr. Grenfell) would be remedied. That no
man was more satisfied than himself of the value and
the merits of the services of those Gentlemen who
• created those ads in the country. He thought the
country greatly indebted to the Commissioners who
carried into execution these acts in their neighbour-
hood. That the Couit of Exchequer could not by
law give costs to the Countnisjoru in this unfor-
tunate suit ; but if the Gentlemen had stared to the
Treasury the hard,hip of their case, he would-cer-
tainly have directed the reimbursement of it—and
now if an application were made, he should still
think it his duty to do so. But having said this, he
must beg- lyave to obierve, that Much of the diffi-
culties in this ad had arisen from the system being
new, little understood at first, and delayed in its
process in the country; these would not occur again.
The Board thinking in this case the law to be as
they contended, could not do Otherwise than to ap-
peal to a Court of Law for the decision, and this
was all they had done. Gentlemen knew well that
those persons -who are surcharged, though rightly
and under the sandion of the Commissioners them,
selves, will be sore and complain; and no man can
deny that some officers may in some cases do wrong-
ly; but he could take-upor. himself to say, that no
Gentleman could be more anxious to repress every
thing tilat was vexatious in their Officers than tile