The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-29 00:00:00

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.

In answer to a question from Mr. BROTHERTON,
Sir R. PEEL said that he would not object, with the
concurrence of the House, to move, after to• morrow,
that the House should sit at 12 o'clock fur despatch of
business, and sit throughout.
EDUCATION.

Mr. 'WART said that he was compelled to draw the
attention of the House to the subject under his name on
the paper, namely :-1. That a statement be made, on
the part of the Government, of the condition and pros-
pect of such educational establishments as are supported
wholly or partially by a vote of this House, 2. That it
is expedient that the formation of public libraries, freely
open to the public, be encouraged. 3. That it is ex-
pedient that schools for the training of masters be more
extensively promoted. 4. That it is expedient that ap-
pointments to the subordinate offices of Government be
made (as far as possible) by examination of the merits of
the candidates for such offices. He found that the re-
port of the Commissioners were more intended to dis-
guise the facts than to reveal them. They had
laid recently laid upon the table of that House
a ponderous tone on the subject of education
which, he would venture to say, Hon. Members had never
read. The condition of the schoolmasters in Scotland
was nothing more than a state of penury. For many
years they were entitled only to the salary of 351. per
annum. The question arose how much further the
Government could interfere to assist the progress of
education. It would be a great advantage if any Mem-
ber should annually move for a report on the state of
education in England, Ireland, and Scotland. He trusted
the municipalities world come forward and seek For the
establishment of libraries throughout the cournry. An-
other great source of promoting education was a system
introduced by the present Lord Grey, namely, by the
examination of those persons intended fur offices un-
der Government. The Hon. Member the Chancellor of
the Exchequer might smile at the supposed novelty of
this proposition, but it had been tried, and that success-
fully, by the late Administration, and he left it to the
liberality of the Right lion. Bart. to take up the subject
end promote it energetically. It was very possible that
he might take the sense of the douse upon the ease now
introduced, but at any rate he thought it could do no
harm to throw out these suggestions to the Government
upon a matter of such undeeiable paramount importaece.
Sir R. PEEL rose and said, that however late the
period ,:f the session, and however great the pressure of
public business, he thought the Honourable Gentleman
was quite right in calling the attention of the House to
this important subject. lie must say, however, that on
the subject of education the House had already very full
information, and also as regarded its progress. He
thought the suggestion of tiie Honourable Gentleman

.hat tat. Govern Lent should, before asking the vote, e

press an opinion as to the progress of edacation, for the
annual volume presented on this subject was rather too
voluminous for Members to make themselves fully
masters of. llewever valuable this volume might be, an
oral explanation by a Minister was preferable, as being
. more calculated to awaken public attenti m. The
amount last year granted for educational purposes was
' 40,0001.—this year 75,0001. was proposed —75,000/,
was the sum voted for Ireland—so that, in
all, 150,000/. was in one year voted for the
subject of education—a fact which sufficiently
proved the anxiety of the Government on the
subject. He thought the increase of comforts to school-
masters was well worthy of attention ; for they could not
more effectually promote education generally than by
holding out encouragement to the teachers. In 1843 a
sum was granted for the building of 251 schools, and in
1844 for 380. In consequence of the addition to the
objects to which the vote was applied, it had been found
necessary to make an increase of 35,0001. ; but he
thought that must not be the limit.—(Hear.) For there
was so great a desire to educate the working classes, that
he did not think, if an application were made for a larger
grant next year, it would meet with great opposition.
He was quite willing to take such a test if he thought it
would be at all useful, but he had very great doubts of
any such test being at all a worthy criterion of capability.
But a further consideration was involved. Was mere
scholastic attainment anything like a proof of capacity
for public office? He did not mean intellectual capability,
but that power to fulfil the practical duties of life,
together with that degree of attainment which would
ensure an appointment advantageous to the public. The
Noble Lord last session had proposed that a portion of
the public funds should be appropriated to granting
prizes to the youths educated in these public schools
after their attainments had been ascertained by public
eeamination. Now if he were perfectly convinced of the
truth of the decisions come to after these public exami-
nations, he should certainly have no objection, but he
had yet much to learn respecting the principle here
involved before he acceded to its truth, and till he was
he felt it a matter of duty to withhold the grant. It was
solely from an unwillingness to induce the schoolmasters
to seek for public employment that led him to abstain
from all interference. There was great danger in
offering them such rewards. He hoped, under these
circumstances, that the Hon. Gentleman would'perceive
that he had dealt with these propositions in a manner
in which they ought to be dealt with.
Mr. WYSE seconded the resolution of his Ho-
nourable Friend. He said that education had now
assumed such a position as to justify any consump-
tion of time and labour in introducing the subject in
an enlarged state under the consideration of the House.
He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would take an
enlarged view of all literary institutions and support
them by grants from this House in whatever part of the
United Kingdom they might be placed.
Sir R. PEEL said that it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to collect the information which might lead to
such institutions.

Mr. WYSE was very glad to hear such a statement,
as it was of inestimable value. It would turn the public
mind to a due consideration of the subject. He
did not think that the Right Honourable Baronet
made any observations with rospect to that part
of the resolutions which referred to the institu-

tion of, public libraries. He (Mr. Wyse) thought town
councils ought to get. the power of levying taxes for the
institution of public libraries under the sanction and
authority of Government. It would greatly encourage
the diffusion of knowledge, and go far in the correction
of morals in the growing generation. He hoped his
Hon. Friend would be satisfied with the explanation
and recommendation of the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site and not think it necessary to put his resolutions to
a division.

Mr. HUME said he felt perfectly satisfied both with
the answer the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government had given, and the able speech of his Hon.
Friend near him (Mr. Ewart.) The present administra-
tion had shown itself peculiarly inclined to extend the
opportunities of education both by the liberal grant re-
commended for such purposes in this country as well as
Ireland. At the same time, though much had been
done, a very wide field was open for carrying out the
laudable work still more efficiently. In Russia every
class of the community were given the means of ready
and early instruction ; maps were exhibited in every
school in that kingdom, and over each city and town de-
picted on them were placed a statistical account of the
population, revenue, and peculiar features of each, whe-
ther the districts were tnanutacturing or agricultural,
and all such invaluable particulars. As to the second

resolution, he concurred in every word which his Hon.
Friend had said in reference to local libraries ; the im-
portance of such establishments could not be overrated,
and though it would be a very great acquisition to this
country if the same system as was at present pursued in
the United) States could be introduced here, neverthe-
less, although he concurred so fully in the remarks of his
Hen, Friend who had brought forward the present dis-
cussion, he trusted the resolutions would not be pressed
to a division, as, what was far better than that, a useful
and sltisfac tory- consideration had been given the question.
Mr. HAWES recommended that the same collegiate
system lately introduced for Ireland should be intro-
duced int-) this country, but, in the want of such a satis-
factory course, he could only tender the resolutions of
his Hon. Friend his warmest support.
The motion was negatived without a division.
SCHOOL OF DESIGN,
t
On the question being lnAthet the Speaker leave the
chair,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS rose to move according to
notice--For a Select Committee to inquire into the. alb-

gations contained in the petition of the senior students of
the School of Design in Somerset-house, rrd into the
general management and present state of 'that School—
but stated his willingness to withdraw his motion in case
the Government would accede to its requirements.
Sir R. PEEL made a few remarks across the table,
not one word of which reached the gallery, but it is to
be concluded that he refused to concur in the proposi-
tion, as

Mr. WILLIAMS immediately proceeded, and attri-
buted the ill-success which had attended the Institution,
ever since its first formation, to the bad government
under which it had systematically laboered. Twenty-
four gentlemen had been appointed to conduct the
entire management of the establishment, and like
every other department entrusted to the charge
of such a limited council, it ha I been neg-
lected. Every thing he affirmed, he was prepared to
prove before a Committee of the House. He challenged
inquiry, as he wanted to know whether the statements
that had been made to him were true or not. The
successor of the previous Master, Mr. Dyce, was Mr.
Wilson, who was neither a workman nor a scholar, and
the latter had under him a Mr. Herbert, a very skil-
ful person, and a royal academician, yet Mr. Herbert,
so eminently qualified for the situation he held,
was removed by a meeting of the council, at
which there were only four present— (Hear)—
while the other was retained. In consequence of this
state of things, the arrangements were such as to afford
no efficient means of instruction. Thirty-seven of the
students addressed the council on the subject, setting
forth the incapacity of the master of their class, and the
director, to fill the situations which they held, to which
an answer was returned as offensive as it could be well
expressed, ordering their expulsion. The Hon. Member
here said, the order of the council for the expulsion of
the scholars, and deciding that they should not be re-
admitted unless through the director, respecting whose
incapacity they had addressed the council, he
looked upon as a highly arbitrary proceeding, as the
remonstrants were not boys, but many of them young
men who had given evidence of considerable ability, and
who had shown no refractory spirit, but merely a lauda-
ble desire of being properly instructed. He was told
that many of the complaining parties were
miserably deficient of talent. His answer to
this was, that many of them had competed
for prizes, and had been successful. One, a native of
Scotland, after being a few months there, obtained two
prizes, and another had gained three prizes, in competi-
tions. These were facts which, with many others, he
could prove in committee, were it granted. Under such
a management, what was the result ? In April, 1844,
there were 196 scholars ; in July, the same year, 189 ;
being a falling off of 7. In April, this year, there were
186 ; in July, 111 ; showing a falling off of 75. What
was the occasion of this ? The dismissal of 37 of their
best scholars, and such a circumstance deterring others
from attending at this seminary. The testimony of Mr.
Pugin, whose fame was European, bore evidence to the
poverty of our talent in the decorative arts. That gen-
tleman stated that he had only three persons in his em-
ployment who were Englishmen; and out of those three,
there were two who had been dismissed from the School
of Design. Surely these circumstances called aloud for
inquiry. If his motion was not granted, great dissatisfac-
tion would be the result. Owing himself much to manufac-
tures, he was anxious that proper instruction should be
afforded to those who had to obtain their livelihood
through their means, and he should therefore use every
exertion in his power to promote their efficiency. The
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that an inquiry
be instituted into the School of Design.
Sir GEORGE CLERK opposed the motion, and
held that the House would compromise its dignity if
they acceded to it, when it was well known that it
emanated from a number of students who had been
suspended from the School of Design, on account of
gross insubordination. With respect to Mr. Tyas, it
could not have been expected that an artist of con-
siderable eminence could have given up all his time to
the institution, even when his salary was increased
from 409/. to 5001. a year. Mr. Wilson was also
an artist of great eminence, and certainly a
person more qualified could not have been
selected to fill the office to which he was appointed.
Mr. Herbert was also well qualified to instruct those in
his department--the drawing of the human figure.
Those under his tuition were under 20 years of age,
there being same as young as fourteen. Certainly Mr.
Herbert was to blame for the disparaging way in which
he spoke of Mr. Wilson in the hearing of his pupils.
Now he would ask the House whether these gentlemen—
mere lads—were competent to judge of the character of
their tutors. It was true that there was one 22 years
of age. Mr. Wilson took this young man into his pri-
vate room, and showed him some drawings, some of
which he lent him to copy. He found the name of an
Lalian written in the corner, and thus he brought the
char;-re against Mr. Wilson of foisting off other persons
,h-signs as his own. Now, it appeared that the name in
the corner of the drawing was that of a town—Oaego--
which the drawinr, represonted ! The shawl-worker
mentioned by Mr. Nugent had taken lessons, and left
the school ; but after some time he returned,
and took lessons under Mr. Wilson. He designed some
beautiful patterns, which were eagerly purchased by
some of the largest manufacturers in that town. Many
of those who were in the. habit of receiving patterns
from France now obtained them from those who had
been educated at the School of Design. This showed
that the school was not in the inefficient state which the
Hon. Member made out—considering the short time it
had been established, it had made wonderful progress.
Looking at the satisfactory state of the exhibition last
year he al not think that the School of Design patronised
by Government was in the state described by the Hon.
Member, and having, as he thought, answered all the
arguments and all the facts of that Hon. Member, there
seemed no necessity for the Committee. He should oppose
his motion.
Mr. EWART said that, without taking up the time
of the House, it was clear enough that the school in
Somerset House was in a state of disorganisation. Mr.
Pugin had stated that he was unable to find there ar-
tists to supply designs for the new Houses of Parliament,
and he was therefore obliged to search over the Conti-
nent for them. Their manufactures were also behind
those of France, because pattern designing was not suffi-
ciently encouraged ; and therefore, under these circum-
stances, he should support the motion of his Hon. Friend
the Member for Coventry.
Mr. WAKLEY said that, finding the Hon. Member
for Lambeth, who had been taking notes that evening,
did not rise to speak on the subject, he must as a matter•
of duty do so, for he could not understand why they
should vote away public money for a school actually of no
public benefit. It had been said by the Hon. Gentleman
opposite that it would be an encouragement of insubor -
dination if they granted this Committee. But was an
inquiry into evils, an encouragement of insubordination?
and many young men—young men rising in the world—
whose prospects possibly would be destroyed, were ex-
pelled from this school, and would the House then call
this a factious measure—a measure likely to encourage
insubordination ? The students complained that their
teacher was an incompetent man, and could it be sup-
posed that the young men would have risked this asser-
tion if they had not believed it ? But what was the.,
course pursued ? The council, instead of inquiring int o
the qualifications of Mr. Wilson, suspended the come-
plaining scholars. That was the reward which th e
students received for the discharge of their duties to on e
another, and their zeal for their own improvement. The y
discovered that the person who was appointed to time
task was wholly incapable of instructing them. But ate
council concealed from the House all the facts of time
case

as related to Mr. Herbert. No doubt th e
council would say that they abstained front
stating the facts, through delicacy to Mr. Roberts, who
asked no delicacy at their hands. He hoped the First
Lord of the Treasury would inquire into the case him-
s(lf.—(llear, hear.) There was no public institution
that could have a more beneficial effect upon the promo-
tion of the fine arts and the interests of commerce th•an
the School of Design, if properly worked.—(llear, heP.r.)
It was well kr town that the manufacturers of this calm-

.ry sent annu: tlly upwards of 30,0001. a year to France
for designs. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would inter-
fere, to see that the school was properly conducted,
it would be a great benefit to the country. It;
was right to place at the head of such an institu-
tion a director who was a clever, active man of busit.
ness ; but he taught not to be a teacher, or to be
allowed to interfere with the teachers.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not wish to say anything painful to the feelings
of Mr. Wilsol 3, but he hoped the Government would
take some steps before the next session of Parliament
to place the s‘rhool upon a proper foundation.—(Hear.)
Mr. HAWI i.'eS objected to the assertion made by his
Hon. Friend t, ke Member for Coventry, that the council
consisted of jr bers.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend's
statement was I made upon facts which were reported by
persons not w •ell informed.—(Hear, hear.) The facts of
the case were simply these:—A quarrel' arose between
the two masts- 'rs, in the course of which Mr. Herbert
appealed to tl se pupils, who responded by loud cheers.
The council took great pains to investigate
the circumst :ances, and having behaved with
great conk& ration to Mr. Herbert were obliged
to come to the resolution of discontinuing his
services. Th .e details were not of that important
nature to be et nbodied in a report to Parliament, and he
(Mr. Hawes) t aid his colleagues thought that no more
was necessary than to state the principal facts. But he
would pledge b is honour to the House, that he and every
other member of the council had the highest respect for
Mr. Herbert, a nd were actuated only by a sincere desire
for the advancement of the school.—(Hear, hear.) It
had been said: 3y his Hon. Friend that the school had
declined, but the fact was to the contrary. The school
had greatly ad vanced, and the manufacturers had shown
their sense of its value by their extended employment
of the students male and female.—(Hear.) He would
venture to sa: r for every member of the council
from the highe 0 to the lowest, that they had no objec-
tion to see the s c hool remodeled, if it could be done on a
better basis. I I et would not object to the motion for in-
quiry, if it wert 5 made on the simple ground of improve-
ment to the in 3 titute. But he would resist it, if it
were brought fc award upon a charge that the council
was composed t 5t jobbers.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. `'NYSE e ..fended the reputation of the school and
the conduct of the council. He appreciated the talents
and acquiremer its of Mr. Herbert, buf after all the con-
sideration whit b. he, as a member of the council, could
give to the st Lbject, he thought that no other course
could have been 'taken than to dispense with the services
of that gentlerr ,703, and to mark with disapprobation the
insubordinatior t of the students. He could not give his
vote
hoation which implied censure upon the
e would support any inquiry which might
uoitnb4ject the improvement of' the school itself,"
etvinzfifolo.rr a
itsu
and the exten.sicva of its utility.
After a few a words from Mr. HAWES,
Mr. WILLI AMS declined to divide the House, and
the motion was. negatived without a division.
• IRISH POLICE FORCE.
Lord CLEM ENTS 'then rose, according to notice, to
move the consyoration of the petitions of John Conniff,

E. Kirwan, Robert Clegg, and Joseph Boyd, formerly in
the Irish police; and further, to recommend some change
being made in the regulations of that body. Tht Noble
Lord read at great length testimonials in favour of the
petitioners, and complained of the manner in wlich the
police in Ireland was managed. He was of opinion
that they should have a standing police force in Ireland.
An armed body was necessary even in the least dsturbed
districts. He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would
take these matters under his consideration, and lake the
proper measures for the better regulation of tie police
force in Ireland.
Sir T. FREMANTLE hoped he would be excused at
that hour of the night, and under the circumstmces, of
going at length into the subject which the Noble Lord
had brought forward. The Right Hon. Gentleman then,
in an exceedingly low and rapid tone, referred to the
parties named in the motion, all of whom, he said, had
been removed upon good cause. They had been con-
victed of insubordination and general bad corduct, and
on those grounds they were dismissed the service. The
reasons upon which the step complained of was taken,
was to the Government quite satisfactory, and they exone-
rated all parties concerned from any blame.
Mr. SHEIL wished to ask to ask a question. It was,
how the patronage of the Constabulary Force was ar-
ranged? Under the late Government, he understood that
two-thirds were appointed by Colonel M.Gregor.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE—One-third. The
remainder were in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant.
The motion was then negatived without a division.
SUPPLY.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee o.
Supply.