The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY

ittitiem-a—A----- -- - ----
gres3,4 •n, tang the position of the Attorney-General, trans- on this subj. ct ; but English Members were, in this opinion, her Majesty's .G. overnment
.had adopted the most judicious '
101,4J:et of
eaketiti‘n a similar wav, the Court m' ssed it over "hic•ii be in're violent in their attacks than the . Irish Members.--.-• method of arriving at that improvement ; and he c.onfessed
the ob. ed ought not to'have been thel case He be'lieved that ( Hear, hear. ) All they wanted was domestic peace.—(lrom- that. for. one he could
.not be without some apprehe.nsion, that
the Government was not viniicatien but that the cal cheers. ) Let tlem have it in the name of God, and give by issumg that commission, they might have exeitcd vague
failed t "duct of the proceettir gi was wronst and they had up their prejudices towards each other.—( Hear, hear.) E.ng- expectations,
.which hereafter there would. be not a little (lA-
that • e carry cut their Wee': wl ••h ' t •'-''lress the abbe lish gentlemen seemed to think no language was strong enough culty in fulfilling. He could not but believe that a very much
it. Justice had been don j '
ih in. viiasf ()I in, i .
cl. 0- P t t to use towards those who were Irishmen by birth, Protestants smaller measure of real improvement now, would have done
at,47lection of all Rome•an Cetritp!
fe t I etrhy in).,,,enl an ,Hae
in rebeion and Conservatives in politics.—( Hear, hear.) more to compose existing differences, and quiet the minds of
lepeal not have felt indienant if atl eevtlicbsti rboemen re!,lecited eel as What he wi'shed was, that nothing should be unsettled. That the Irish people on this subject, than even a much larger mea-
hay et's ; but the fact ;as -t " - hHh y ld h• • • ith regard to the Emancipation Ac.tl and he sure deferred to a later period, and coming wh. en their expec-
-0 theas,b that they vvere not sue . es ou was is opinion w
sersac, e t no more about it hut he found that it was the expected to be met on the other side in .
a similar spirit. He tations had been more raised. He did not think that that was
tett „s of all work of th s G ' . • " ce t inl considered the Roman Catholics bound themselves an unreasonable apprehension ; and he confessed he did not
la "Pl'a th s overnment who took that invidious r a y
Ch h nattas ked if Emancipation was quite understand why it was impossible to legislate at once
iletisna.. eniselves. He found that another of the law to leave the Protestant ure u.
C • nd Lord uor th b• . It d'd
Nes_ ries had, at a public meetie s oken in a most out.. conceded. —( No, no. ) Certainly
.A.lr. arming a te i esu jee.. i appear to him, that if hei• Majesty's
c.,41,7,S runner of the C. tit V a lg• - p d others were Of opinion that if that mea- Government had proceeded at once to obtain the best assist-
of Ireland and of the Plunket an
whoetaic ;aim, A .0 1 peop e , ,
1 the Established Church would be secure. ance in their power, in considering what improvements of legis-
.) ~, oers of that House.—(Name ! name ! who ? sure were passer ,
trete "hen he saw th t 'sl bi L d 11 b f h He thought if they could be of a conciliating temper and spirit lation were necessary on that subject, having at their corn-
ka at Gov - aas m, e or ,a . err. er ot e _ .
t' ns of this kind, they could better attend mend the first legal assistance in England and Ireland, and
a.ost in. , ernment had distinguished himself by using the when discussing ques io . ,
'rerl' -altitir' la . • he advice cantained in her Majesty s speech, to apply their also the advice of persons best acquainted with the real affairs
the 1441ent annd tn,uag, e towards the Catholic Members of
tmeitnds to improving the social condition of a pe,ple who were in both countries—he could not but believe, that with such
obgan who
nevehred;Ndshole Irish pedople—h niheothhe
tfoundsthatl
by nature kind-hearted and generous, but who had been too aid, it would not have been altogether impossible
leira ' sad who •
l eoe act, goo or am ,wi ou a per.onal
I ne lected and thus developing the resources of that beau- that . a measure for effecting such an improvement
„ , ba,, was oeking for the place of the other Nob e ong g !
'0 the " sPoken in a simi'ar strain, he was hound to come tiful land. With respect to e
th motion ef the Noble Lord the as legislation could effect might have been ready at the time
not cmielusio Alomiter for Lyndon, it was a mere party attack ,of one great when Parliament again met. He said that was an opinion
11 ernoleht n that it was the systematic policy of the .. .
att seek •, He thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman division of the House upon the. ot ~ _ ,
her and of course, they should which he could not help feeling somewhat inclined to entertain.
ettbe en witn more asn r.t than was nevessary of the re:tilt all be found voting under their. particular banners. At the same time, he was far from venturing to condemn the
ern. trial. ,_,_ , _ - ,e i y s . .
Lord HOWICK, who was in the com•nencement of his ob- issuing of that commission ; it was possible that the difficulties
Aces joss _ .c had got a verdict, but when the constitution . .
h t • udible was understood to say that on of the
.subject might be greater than he thought, and that this
nice 5 was con idered, it was impossible to avoid the in- set vations some% a ina . ~
'46 that th .et ste mi h
both sides of the House it seemed, as far as the debate had 3 p g t have a necessity. He thought it was an unfortunate
telfet' er the Crete proceedings were unfair. The first law .
dmitted that no prospect had yet been held out by necessity; but, still, he admitted that such a necessity might
tb to riffs, • wit, at a public meeting, had expressed him_ gone, to be a,
ehi h sive terms respecting the conduct and motives of her Majesty s Government o a measu
f ' •re which should produce have existed. But the conclusion he drew from it
tee • S'
CathOliCi ith t H •ht •h th matter was content and tranquillity in Ireland. The House would re- wa.s this—that .if all they could do. towards reme-
anaal!lactoed over and onv a
.oufse ,t u
,vt :it
member that immediatly before the Right Hon. and Learned dying the physical distress of the Irish people, was
he neever had the
'2.(1-leae:'eor candour tenr,gtain
ho.rthen 3 eahr. ,
h ld those o inions Gentleman got up to speak, the Right Hon. Baronet the Se- to afford them the distant prospect of improvrment
ae w t er. e e
gm ,-- , ssear.) p • - h-th P 1. cretary of State for the Home Department had risen
.for the held out to. them by this much talked of commission,
utting all these thing.s toget er e peop e
Was „"I." there • ur ose of explainino• certain expressions uaed by him, and he thought it far more necessary that they should pro-
a,s. thins ,_ e is a Tory Government in England, and there P
Lotiot 0h,...'n . aprct. If the man t o %hem we must look up h.% h d ben a'clverted to by the Right Honourable vide other measures, which he believed were more indispen-
w lc a e .
reit the
_.!llo. Justice, how can we ?"—( Cheers. ) What had Member . -
for Kildare (Mr. More O'Ferrall). It sable. It appeared to him that the more they considered the
L d Howick), he confessed, actual state ot Ireland, the more ground there was for coming
el etpee`tltluct of their underlines in office ? What could appeared to him ( or ,
-weer r" whe h ' ff d h • 11' h
n t e Government su ere t eir ig er that the Right Hon. Gentleman s explanation was longer than to the conclusion, that they could not efface discontent from
the ato act a d t ' as the words he had originally used ; but, at that country by the mere removal of its physical distress. No
be: the nod s they had done? Was it not a matter of course an no so c.eahr
h d t erceived anv material difference in doubt great poverty affected the masses ;no doubt the struogle
Ilea
catholieer.litnhg should_ say, "Oh ! strike off that fellow, t
thheeirsamme
ear: e,
g elf ahe nuendPerstood the "Right Hon. Baronet's which existed there to obtain the means of even the most miser-
-1 .
ebelief has _ e fellow will swear on his th. unett."-7.(Hileahri..)
words aright "he (Sir James Graham) had been told by his able existence, entered deeply into the causes of their discon-
iZb result
of
cheeetn . confirmed .n the public mind in u in
Noble Friendthe Member fur the City of London (Lord John tent. But he was persuaded that this bitterness was greatly
B,llkagt)t a triu h
. nals He admitted that th.e Governoient
tee beta, mPh, but they were in a more difficult poaition R 11) that we had military occupation of Ireland, which was increased, and never could have risen to the point at
usse
-'n b •-e• The ' d. The Right Hon. Gentleman replied (and if which it had then arrived, if there had not rankled
11,, ti. ebeeed that
tchountry. was exasperate.d more th. an ever, n
eo t
mgi os
tvo
oe r n
kehe could correct his words)—" Yes, we have mili. in the minds of the peop.le a constant sense of injury and wrong:
oererught that the edyffierdict. was not ochtaineu by
tfair means. h
tary occupation of Ireland, and it was necessary that ne Hence, e.ven if her Majesty's Government had been prepared
Ithat iiTelierable • but' . !tittles otf the
te ovte,
trenronenthwater;iroeunse-
should have it when we saw obvious signs of a design to to deal with the physical evils of Ireland in a much larger and
rtai, '8 Opinion 'W if he nen ured sa. i
wrest it from us by physical force." Those were the words more comprehensive manner than they were prepared to do—
te ~.,-s, that hi. ld b 'd
a.s
.of the consequences, it won e sal
~
of the Ri ht Hon. Gentleman. What was the real meaning had they been prepared to submit at once a law in relation to
1,,0,,,v,ti1d ~a,,
.: atntimpations produced the. result. But t.his
aof their sgayine the had military occupation of Ireland ? landlord and tenant—had they been prepared to 'propose the
qe;al tretoese,htinmatothstearned.titinasthneo con.stderaotfmtnheonßettrhtht wHhoicn.
Because they' peryceived indicaiions of an attempt to setting on foot a plan for public works, on an extensive scale,
ite rtelasn'.. anthe Attorne - C 11111.oln h )'M
mh 'f' wrest it from them by physical force.—(Hear, hear. ) were they prepared with a well considered system of colonise-
-10.0 pons,h.t. t ienera . ear, ear. uc o .
I i'd St , hitY, also, rested with the Noble Lord opposite fr t h iou that throu h- tion, even were they prepared with all these measures, still he
What did that mean, but t a tey were consc s .. g
a els ab'el'). He knew the rashness of the Noble Lord, hould have said that even these would not have roduced the
out the great body of the Irieh people there reigned a spirit of s . . . . p
*Vei. eatirase
An. m but h, and his readiness to attack any person what- disaffeetion—that they were retained in their allegiance, not by effect desired, ..hey would not have their influence uhless ac-
-411%4 e was sorr th 1, NT h
that y eres y at t.e s.oele Lord's antagonism an.
.1 a sense of duty, but by a sense of prudence, in consequence of co.mpanied by other measures calculated. to remove from the
if . thee e called forth in Ireland. He assumed the House G t able to maintain there— minds of the people of Ireland the galling sense of injury
the force that the overnmen were .
it br..s
a would never h v heard of the repeal of the union (Hear, hear)—that their-hearts were alienated from them, and and . injustice, more especially with reference to the
*lisps alat bee -a e - "- • 1 1 d
heir ower rested not upon affection, but force ? That was partial treatment of the religion to wh. ich.they. ie onge .
I,,e_
trate ~._ n for him—( Hear, hear)—who did more to t, P. .
'of what the Right Hon. Gentleman had Unless they were prepared to do something in this respect,
5,,,,f. t Gov:_e_People than any other Member
'even of th.e tne rdeal
thmetawntnsg
the real meanine of the measures which her every other measure they could adopt would be unavailing.
(Ca!iles, whi'_tirnent? He knew the Noble Lord s strong arn- t t
s a
.e —la a
ka..rd s, len he never hesitated to express, and no doubt he Majesty's Government had ado ite'd But if that was the real Was it possible the Irish people could fail to feel most hitterly
di t ' know— and the Right the pressure of the manner in which they had dealt with the
tr
ar!to doantlei.)2 thought that the Government had nothing state of things, be waanttethe
°same time admitted, that religion to which the great body of the people belonged ? Was
tap strueeid_ to maintain the army and the income-tax. But .
Honourable t Gteenttlyeliteileahn
could not permanently continue. it possible that the partial treatment of that ancient faith, to
I.o„;alten !!'e shot!id arise, what was to become of those who it was a s a bulk of the people clung with such attachment—
TO that
.'-'_'
.Part in the agitation. He would tell the Noble h the eould not alwa 's overn by force. which the
He had told them t at
.y . f .
h )t
g 1 h tte ( Hear)—when compared with the treatment given to all other
ii:7lslol4 t: eld a position which was of great responsibility. They mlght. do so for a time— or a s ort in erva. sue a sta I
fa
iths should not create in their minds a constant rankling, and
)4 ',educed °,rd's Right Hon. colleaeue had told him that he of things might be endured—but as a p.erma.nent instrumen o
sense'of injustice, which, while it existed, they could never
absaltl ten , !ne troops in Ireland ; 'but he, Mr. &Ferrell) government in Ireland force was entirely ineffective. These • .
th • ffection 2 The Rieht Hon. Gentleman had
eat be nins that 1 I were the words of the Eight Hon. Gentleman. But having hope to Vitt! eir a
Ntere 2a a long
00, id ie meand to govern by th. e sword. it
made that admission—when the Right Hen. Baronet, the said that, s.ince Roman . a o i
C •th Fe Emlnci ration was ear • el
Polies, ,4)00 troops
_anl a strong o.ne. He had said that there ualit held bee fll ne
'
Member for Devonport ( Sir G, Grey ) having quoted that the principle of religiousi. eq
_y
..k n
tu y en-
s," ee wows
.fts reland, but If they pursued their present
Id 1 • th tof the Government forced in Ireland. He ( ord Howic ) was a. a loss
It. rJ. G,„ .1 wish that the were fifty times augmented. most remarkab e et: aration on e par ,d f
'gin It rtAHAm y . had asked what were the means they propose lor reco e g
v rin ' to understand the grounds upon which he maintained that
144 on, G rose te explain. He understood the t What were the simple facts of the case? The
40:aid that
tntlensan to have sa.d that he (S rJ. Graham) the affections of. the yish people.—.-whfatdr.seffion.at. prow
inch
re- a men
spect they arau .
Roman Catholic Church was the ancient Church of Ireland.
el% "es a e Policy of the Government would be to retain held out of getting rid of the spirit oas
ti:ae eacnisowner f r
om
Pthe Some three centuries ago, or rather more, the endowments
e. tk, Part of t veiled
ef ths s, eat h he British dominions by military farce amongst th..at peoplef—sliat w 2 la
d He was sure he felt were, by their act, transferred from it to the Protestant
ItiliC gees e said was this, aed it was in the recollection Noble Lord, the Secretary or relan ... .
lf B t Church—the Protestants being a small minority of the popula-
46,_tainta t:: that the Established Church of Ireland should be for the difficulty in which his Noble btiend found himtshe u
at' the tion—the great body of the people still adhering to their ancient
111;Zithat A
Waallsits rights and privileges.—(Hear, hens ) He when asked a question ohf. sucht vsiatsutatroxorintaoimcemaes
iate
d 'con- faith. Further, the great body of the people, from whom they
eke a,taey fo,,__ necessary, so late as March, 1843, to increase gentlemao Jecilhding the h
miegnteo'f Ireland could do nothing but wrested their eodowrnents for their
.religious wants, was the
oe to Lee utiii:'_:e of Ireland, and that when they came into nexion with t e.Govern
i erable details in defence of his poorest population in Europe, while those to whom they
eske state ta..L.arY force in Ireland was diminished. He went come. for.ward with some m s
d of attempting to prove how assigned the Church revenues were the wealthier classes. Nor
to,,erlaettee"o7 It became necessary to increase the army, in distribution of patronage,. an
were towards Ireland. When was this all. They added insult to injury. Even to the Pres-
tklaedrnMent h the attempts which were made to overawe the kind and goe:d Itis interttions
ld f rward with—while by terians, who were, by the letter of the law in Ireland, as
le, i that ~ Y the demon t tian of physical force and he that was all his 'Noble 'Friend coo come o. . , .
-trient l'. was not sra • -••
• ' at the same time lie (Lord Howiek) knew his in.entions were much Dissenters as the Roman Catholics, they gave a share of
et„ tie. „ to hoi„r
.. to be the permanent policy of the
.Go.-
as ood as he stated—when he heard such a statement as that the bounty of the State. The only part of the popula-
le 01.L.n.e su„s_".._ia eland by military force, b.ut after vindi-
f ogm his Noble Friend, the case most be very serious indeed. !ion th.ey left unprovided with the means of religious
' ey v" hanarc:ni. cY•of the law, and not leaving to force on
r H har ) Had her Majesty's Government seriously instruction was the great bulk of the people—that
Pesti, °aid set ', Pelding to intemperate counsel on the other, —( ear, e . .
at aof her tut to the Crown of this country that inestimable reflected on the import of the words they had used, or class which stand most in need of pecuniary assistance.
at ier• SHA„Olajesty's dominions ( Cheers. ) on the greatness o e anger ose
f th d th words in. Now he would ask them was that just? Did they think that
ter est he w said that h 1 • - dicated ? Did they Suppose that in the existence of Ireland could be reconciled to the continuance of that state
a err, tat th_ e wou d not nave troubled the /Tousle,
such general disaffection as that, that it was a of things, by such arguments as they were in the habit of
tatesica4tz b y thee k)ors.en time, had. he not been so. pointed y
ease where they could wait for a More convenient sea- hearing in that House, and which they had heard that night
10,,,R;5al to `l' James r.,°l? Lord opposoe, and his Right Honh.
son for proposing better measures—did they suppose that every from the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw)?
ii list. !she oolis`'siroanua7), during the present a h
_e_ate, wit l
hour of delay was not of the utmost importance ? Why, it Let them recollect that it was in vain for them to reason ever
I.,,nntite teiti4lt therefore he
o..thee sixty namf eshfirmomto tthreo ugbel en et
Ze was true, while peace lasted, while they were not attacked from so closely in their own minds, unless they could persuade the
igi'n,site to a fevv observationnsecaensdsary
in deroing so, it would be abroad, he believed there was no sort of danger of open resist- Irish people to agree
.with them. They might reason as
tie_erl the; refer to the details 1' th ' k t f Parliament under ance to their authority, and that if there were such resistance clo.sely as the best logician! that ever came from their untver-
_ reks „ peels, ;___ . o e. c o .
exhibited, he was certain it would be repressed. While peace sines. Their premises might be unshaken, and their chain of
I G
Nes ;nee w 'Jur) was made out. (The Right I on. en-
leo, tne A„ est on to detail what was requisite to be done lasted, it was true. But the very consequence of that state of reasoning unbroken—all that might leo the ca yet if they
lee'the were as '
aka" had se of Parliament.) A reat deal of misrepresen- things was, that all improvement in Ireland was arrested, failed to coovince the minds of the Irish peop e
Yider w s
%es" frotng,°,ne abroad with re agrd to the omission of the that every relation of life was poisoned, and the whole country far from their obtect as ever. What they handtto coe s
h nther theay
thine' la,t `ae list. Now the gre Ift of the case were was filled with strife and ill-blood ; men's passions raised, and not whet.her th. eir arguments were good,k
~,_ yO, • ears of . . . aac s . . uwf
11 ell that
ere .1 who sixty or sixty-five names being onntted, eir anger exci e one ag n
th • •t d ai st the other, and a state of society would weigh with the Irish people. He new u. w .
could not avoid entering
the i.tanete la were said to be Ro a Catholics, there Produced which, he thought, must be intolerable to all who he was wearying the House, but he
a)._ ist; i_edn names omitted, and five wm n 1 I ced on were forced to abide amidst it. That might be the utmost ex- into one or two of those arguments which had been brou ht
b eoo , n this hap d • •
ere wrong yp a the Church Establigsh-
t tof the evil, and, God knows, it was bad enough. But he forward. One of the first respecting
ables ‘ines. ~ Pene in transferrirg between 4,000 and eu Rh' H bl
ad been advanced by the ig s onoura e
eit,„_ on ih_ Ihe result was that, instead of their being 741 would ask, had they reflected what would be the result if a ment, which h
rested u on the Act of Union, and he
tlea7ent ~,7 general list, there were only 717. Great ex- foreign war broke out—what would be their situation if they Gentleman,
t f It wpith his ( Lord Howick's) friend
4,1'141 aerevailed ia Dublin res ect• -th t' 1 d were again called on to carry lan a mortal struggle for their found Krea au
ing
.ose ma ss an . h fif h t• le of the Act of
tan to tem attorneys on bth 'cl p tence with a foreign enem —when amidst such difficulties, for saying that t e t ar lc
13: bin 'le mak. 0 si es attended his Court to at- eats . y ~ . Union ought to be expunged.—( Hear. hear.)
.What
r._ e boers 0 ing out of the general list. The Court sat nearly one.third of the whole population of the empire were
tt_ The u . n each day from the Bth to the 1 4th.of Novem- not ready to take part with them, but against them—when was the ground of the Right Hon. Gentleman's objection to
h P l• t f I I d hihareedto
10'14 in Parish collectors made tsr I r h• h they were ready, olt the first favourable opportunity, to rise up that ?W.h. y, that t e ar. 'amen o rle an ,wc t g
ta the -6 his Court. asrh ou
.a „enera ist, w ic . was dth t
against the Government with that deadly hatred which sprung that provision, was exclusively and pure
.y Protestan ,an . a
.oerit. ells
of
the
Pear rev;,sed
ha copy
.was given
h from civil dissensions? Did they really consider how fearful a they never would have agreed to the union else.
.They migh. t
otrf ettwhiehnitblin was divided w'e t antded tit to. t e
p h danger that was ? Peace might continue, but it was mOre than have been purely Protestant, but they were certainly pure in
stereetediffieatilltl!ts°f;"oo names' was inmeade. ST
ycon-seagruisenecse any one could say that it was to last for ever. Did they not see no oth.er sense.—( Hear, hear, and laugh.ter.) What was called
-alio, -ere aheutet-„,„' he cotlectors had to make out a-full list that the continuance of such a state of things furnished them, the Irish Parliament was the most notoriously corrupt assembly
Wd Were f. ',set) persons whose name. were omitted, and on every petty misunderstanding, with a temptation, knowing that had ever met, and could ha.ve no pretence to have ever. re-
-14 tto have arterwards added to the 4,000. The great struggle the source of England's weakness, to ask for that which was in• presented the opinions nf the Irish people. It had been said—
tee: ti.ti the st.'e n.ames put at the top of the list, to enable them Fensistent.with her interests. Did they not risk, by maintain- and he believed the Right. Hon. Gentlentan would say so him-
0_ min_ opecial Jury. The names were tO be arranged lug inch a state of things the power of carrying on war self—that as a representation of the Irish people it was the
11`,toald b: ,c.' rank and property, arid it was required that there with 'advantage ? That was' the effect of the policy now veriest farce and delusion that had ever been acted ; and to say
e.4,tight tonir classes of qualifications. If a person established adapted towards Ireland.-s-( Hear. )He knew what he-should be that that Parliament, because it was purely Protestant, was at
n a eso e placed on the list, his name had, to be interlined, told—that those were things which ought not to be publicly liberty to tie the great English and Irish nations to all per-
toe rss was placed o osite to h. 'oned—that the d
to; of the offi pp . is name to draw the atten- wenn anger of the country ought hardly to be petuity—( Hear, hear)—and combine in making one thing for
tie_ _ cer to it, that tt might be transferred by the re- whispered, much less publicly mentioned in that House. If, ever binding in their consciences, was to maintain a system
emf, ". He took each ef the °O • s • b ferbearin to s eak fh d h ld t•d f wh.ch shook ever rinci le of tural 'tf Wh h
ti kh were disp - parishes ; and when the claims Y . g . P ot e anger tey cou ge ri o
.1 • y p p. . na
.jus ice. en t-e
lit'lla were perfo-rosed of, he considered that his judicial func- its existence ; if, however they might delude. themselves as to Right Hon. Gentleman said that the union was a ground for
J • med, and in that o • • the real state of things, he could believe that it was not under- maintaining the Church Establishment, he only furnished an
tti,v. ustice Perrin. But th d b
pinion he was confirme y
teri te to be perfor d ere was a duty of an administrative db,tl se to whom the knowledge of it was of such argument to the Hon. and Learned Member fur Cork in favour
stoo 2, 10., .
~ y,u_a me , namely, to have th eral list pro-
e gen importance—tf he did not believe that to open the eyes of the ofthe repeal of the uoion ; but as an argument to reconcile the
the
i. r nged according to k countr to the situation in which they were placed was the Irish people to that ChurchEstabllshment, he must indeed have
!lalarefgair rar so to arrange threanlist aanddproperty. He ordered
first steyp to carrying such measures as that situation required— the simplicity of a child to have for a moment believed it.
;c4,e,ooPhabetical crder. Ther'e n
wteoreputtitthereenfoarmees
4in570-
if he did not entertain that conviction, be should not have One of the chief ornaments of the Established Church said that
orlttir t:;_rues altogether, and eut of them the re- spoken of that state of things. But, thinking so, he should the. only ground upon which an E.stablished Church could be
}i, '4l, tkuK 717 fur the Special Jury list instead have failed in his duty if lie did not tell them the danger tn maintained, was on that of conferring benefit on the great body
4,,,earee tns making a difference of twenty-four Now which he believed them to be ; and here he cOUld not avoid of the people.—( Hrar.) Some of the ablest and best defenders
s,se sa fro:line explanation as to how they were Omitted' He repeatino an observation which had been made over and over of our Church admittcd. that it should be maintained only so far
14.boundglethe statement made to him by the registrar;and he aisain iri that House, that it was not the existence of agitation as It promoted. the spiritual welfare of the great body of the
ettil!et h,,',_
.add, after the strictest investigation made into tie in' Ireland that was the source of that danger, that it was not people ; that it should be supported for the
.a.dvantage of the
learrstilllene. °tell, that he was satisfied of the truth of his the violent language used at meetings, that it was nOt the enor. greater number.. Wh. en
tthe...anomt, aous pi9sition of the Irish
raet es had bee stated, that as a list from each of the twenty mous multitudes teat attended those meetings, that it was not people w,.as mentioned
_t_o be iPgh Hon; lidaronet,
_the Seere.
am !,sinmi_ . n returned separately, he thought it would be the people being organised 11 the Repeal Association nor the tary of State for the Home departmen ~ how did he answer ?
kit,elist ail-tit: take each class by itself. He took up the gene- Repeal rent, that in themselves constituted the danger. 'f hose '‘ Oh, yes, said he, " but the great majority of. the people of
'4l) Llasses f ta.l,',lli! marked names. There were therefore were merely the signs and symptoms of the disaffection in Great Britain and Ireland belong to the Established Church
lkitlr• Tnhe—e" Parish. which he placed on sep'arate sheets' which the danger really consisted. He believed there was no and by the Act of Union it is the United Chu' ch of England
kill ekes multi ;le were, therefore, 180 sheets that is_, twenty gentleman of ordinary reflection who did not agree with him, and Ireland," That was the most satisfactory explanation the
Itletc_tleelssa _ Pued by the nine classes. These lie called over that it was the state of mind which prevailed amongst the po- Right Hon. Baronet gave—but did he think that the people of
teak u this, hwlth the original list : having, a h th oht ulattma in that uountr which constituted! and alone consti- Ireland would not see through this shallow sophistry ?—( Hear,
,Pki 4, hoiz ,I, P.! hY the general list. The neexiiiestite,e
vc, Cao Mt .0.
it3uted, the real danger. ylf so, did it not follow as a necessary hear.) Did he remember how much that argument prevailed
teig ass to e nine classes of the different parishes, onpe gene- inference, that by merely repressing the outward signs of die- when they attempted to force Episcopacy on Scotland?—( Hear,
the_ on th c°llstitute th
ts ets ~ e tab,. ~, e general list. For this purpose he content they did no real good, unless they removed that discon- hear,) Why, ii he were uot very much mistaken, he heard
is' St l"atai • '- ''''e several sheets for use. One of those tent from which the signs preceeded ? Nay, instead ef doing the Right Hon. Gentleman himself say, some years ago, in
144 ' Attd nlng 15 names f
fe 'lid "ifs par' h d passages
o the class called traders, belonging good, it vss possible they might tl.tereby increase the danger. one of. those highly wrought and beautifully expresse _ .
er e• ti is , was mixed with the blank sheets and They might do so by blinding their eyes to the of which he was so much a master, the chief title of the people
math_ of th_ hen upon oin
ttters,„oteh names _ g. g over the names he found that . .
' fact of its continuance and by renderin more bitter of Scotland to the admiration of the world, wai the manner in
et klerre4 B',Ylng the ' . g h' hh. h h •d E • •S 1 d (H h )
; were altogether overlooked, and that five those feelings of discontent by the very means wic wict ey resiste piscopacy in cot an . ear, ear.
'lb t° he into the proper crosses opposite their names were they took to repress the agitation. Then he said, if they were He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had told them_ 50me-
10,,,,s it ei. °mitted common list instead of the special list, so to ju.dge of the policy of her Majesty's Government, they must thing ot the Scotch people having trusted to their good clay-
wits t.s ‘s that 0. altogether from the special jury list. constder whether it had been directed to regain the affections mores.—( Hear, hear. ) The memory of the Irish was not less
witatt 'lard to oe omission of t t
Pet 'ettlatt the rerna. • . wen y-four names occi . .
irred of the people of Ireland or merely to repress the power of re- quick or retensive than his, and they would naturally say, what
d ' • l b cl• t th • autherit was ood for Scotland must be ood for Ireland (Hear hear )
r ,„On th was uod ining thirty-six the Right Honourable sistance, an maintain externa o e ience o mt. y. . g . . g . . , .
'',- 01116 e list erstood to say that they were improperly He was far from denying that force was necessary to obtain The present condition of the Irish Chutch was the
°'e am S ' .and, as • - • • - b d d t tth thorit of the Executive Go- best argument for Repeal, and was contrary to every principle
e ofth auto one instance, he said teat the name o e ience an o preven eau y
egret e taint, ,°f Stephen's- ree h d was vernment and of the Imperial Parliament from insult. That of natural justice. It was sacrificing the interests of the great
these to hi,_
,s• His Right H g n,..w o was dea , . .
h f 1 d -tt d • but he contended that the measures which majority of the people to a mere fraction of the people.—
lita, .lists. `" tnat there h on. Friend had expressed his e ree yami • e ,
sh,, sten
o,,a.id he
..._ ~ s ould be any error, wii h regard to had been adopted for that purpo _ .
se should have been considered (Hear, hear.) They mistook the interests of the feeling that
44'ci he „Ln s own"rrirne not obtrude upon the House the ex- tvith great. care, a.nd of a very moderate character
.;.lan _ a
d th t existed in Ireland, and underrated the strength of their resent-
* %to '' °velar, ~ E t• The fact was, time was presting, if uncombined with others they would be of no who .
~•Now, ..
ment He firmly believed that the Irish people might have
rat eetlY e 5 'mous to h
thi ete 0 • mmed. ave everything done accurately wen e came
h h to consider the conduct of her Majesty s Go- been Induced to submit to the Established Church had not the
ht,:g was tie or the
omiately
after the list was made up he vernment, it did appear to him that whatever degree of vigour safety of that Church been made the, pretext for ioaintaining
the 4 oraiet°tnsnlete. ers Of the Court, hoping that every_ they had displayed, it was confined entirely to their measures cruel abuses.—( Hear, hear. ) The Established Cnurch had
eci_Shes.,. ed, he a r n being informed that some names had for repressing external signs of disobedience ; and that even In been mad. e the pretet. for meintalniog the penal laws, which
er 7.,e.d. :,t, was advaw ote to the Sheriff to put it right but the measures adopted for that purpose there was a singular were a disgrace to civilization and the blackest stain on the
ti Nr G the fon_ `sed not to touch the list. which he' re- lack of prudence, of foresight, and of firmness ; but that with pages of English history.—( Hear, hear. ) They should not
thlyaohiseorge R:etnanies which had been omitted were those those measures there had been combined little or nothing in forget that year after year Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite
teel Ives Isellet a,ot.the late Lord Mayor ; Mr. Hoyte, Mr. the other direction. Of the measures having for their aim the came down to that House, and when equality of civil rights
Veng he" ca.se h 'l!r gentleman, and when he found that regaining of the affections of the Irish people, he must say was demanded for the Catholics of Ireland they resisted them,
to 24,h thoneht Leelinmediately wrote to the High-Sheriff, the promises held out were infinitely below what alleging that the Established Church would be shaken to its
aptve a,:eetion oftl,,_ might inser theirt names himself under the people had a right to expect, and infinitely below what the foundation.---(Hear, hear.) Oh, how short-sighted was the
i/ 4hi arcend Lue Act of Parliament. Hs then offered exigencies of the case demanded. ' In the last session of Par.. Right Hon. Baronet when he used such a pretext as that.—
. POu laSelf th ment of th ls
'to sear • e res e tst to the High-Sheriff, or take liament, in the very remarkable debate which took place on the (Hear, hear.) Did he not recollect that they would fill the
%eel% 19hing for Ponsibility of adding the omitted names. motion of the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien), people of Ireland with detestation of that Church ? After
!he! Weateln from the "teen names which had been omitted they, on that (the Opposition) side of the House had stated very Catholic Emancipation had been granted was not that Church
tte,;' spok,,r'sced w." Audeon's parish, the sheet on which fully what were the measures which they thought the situation still put forward in the most offensive manner as the opponent
seliae earecat.° the °is fimild amongst the blank sheets. He of Ireland required. He (Lord Howick) himself had troubled of the liberties and privileges of the Irish people. For the sake
a Nate,. •ssltted theer of the Court and said, " Now you the House with a very full statement of his own opinions on the of that same Church they had, even withio the last few years,
Ivii!sa :Of both part''s error
r .. Yon rn'ust go and inform' the point. Perhaps in doing so he went beyond the strict line of refused justice on the matter of the franchise, and on the F-
ati'l,thi,."egsar,T44 respie: ?;.tue error."—( Hear. )He did this his duty, as an independent Member of Parliament, having no gulation of municipalities—they w_ould nhot equhaltshe thetmhwtth
t Itita-led teh to the grtns'uilitY, and from a sense of duty. official responsibility, and being able to boast of no personal ac- those of England for fear of the Churc Este Its men eing
the' ladtin ether th_ !en names on the mislaid sheet, he never quaintance with Ireland. But he thought the situation of that endangered.—( Hear, hear.) Those things, he repeated,
tear:were ft.from tale Were Protestants or not ; but his belief country so full Of danger, that it was the duty of all who had had sunk
.deeply into the hea:rts of the Irish people.
thea_were I?rnatt catharnes and localities, that the majority of strong opinions as te the necessity of a change of policy, to state Did they think that three centuries of oppression, fur the
the;mgh bet rotestaot olicsebut the majority of the remaining the grounds of that opinion, for the consideration of her Majes- purpose of strengthening the bulwarks and outworks of that
tialtabe 'sat aweeti4,oors; Considering that they had to. go Ws Government and of this House. In rept} to what was Church, had not produced its nece
.ffe
. ssary e cts en the minds
441,1, ancit.'Y very r, and 5,000 names, he did not think that urged from that (the Opposition) side of the House, her Mae of the It ish people? Let us put ourselves in the position of the
Nee intim the ebb:eat negligence in omitting twenty-four jesty's Government made many objections to what was pro- Irish people, and suppose that they were the stronger country,
1%01, havet,uot thirikneC of a ballot among such a number as posed, but they suggested nothing whatever of their own. So and that they wanted to force their Church upon us, would we
Cath" alio "een rstu s ' .11 they were not omitted the result much so that his Noble Friend, the Member for London, at not resist them ? Yes; and the Right Hon. Baronet would be
lis elle W hit, ,eu different fro h • ' th • ' d h 11 th dto have changed the first to offer that resistance, and resist it too with. the clay-
mwat it was. The House e time, observe tat rea y ey see.me .
frao,---(lfe L° add, 111,0 th
3.1p0t0 :risicoti
.ar is
, ' "ear.) t f'he aht tha registrar was a Roman places, and gentlemen from the Opposition side seemed to be more. Could the Right Hon. Baronet put his hand. .on his
1. holt ~ or 0 elieved for one moment that speakin as if they were entrusted with the solemn heart, and say he would submit to such an imposition pa-
le 411 e aUd .°"Uptly 1 f
A t k lif -d. Pl' h • ffi t• tl (H h ) F h•
th Sts 00, subjcct L. e t out those names, he WOOL -as 0- recommenoing to e arnament on t eir
.o - ien y.— ear, ear. or is or owic s par , e
(L d H •IC ) t h
je pee city u'i what rorim to punishment.—( Hear, hear.) cial responsibility some scheme of policy which might would avow that he would not submit to such an injustice—he
%elitist
of bow ght be said in that House,. but give a hope of quieting the distractions of that unhappy would not tamely bow to the yoke. Now, if they woold -not
botl:rtg his .any oiaa"_, where he was known, he believed country, while Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed ern- submit to a Roman Catholic Church Establishment, they being
Part,,st!des 4.auntenan'o_°r Creed would think him capable of ployed in the humble task of criticising—perhaps, he should ra- Protestants, how could they expect that the Irish people would
tr,"„edit,:iad coolie HoZ. tti any such thing•—(Cheers from titer say, carping— at the line of policy suggested. Her Ma- endure it ?.—(Hear, hear.). The Hon.. and Learned. Membe.r
'in ee's--(ti '" have •• ) Re was satisfied no motive of a jesty's Government had, at that time, nothing to suggest. for the University of Dublin, in adverting to the subject, said
oraitase oo ear, he influenced him to sanction such a pro- They took the whole recess t
eih.,.ted. , the
a_ art) o consider what measures they he had taken his stand upon the great ground of religious
unity : nut he Part of h. . ieve tat it was ow g
He bd. d h ' in to should propose, and what were those measures of the Right truth.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Now, if there was
17ted `nd bl was cont is registrar that the names were Hon. Baronet the Secretary of state for the Home Depart- any one thing more calculated than another to aggravate the
ji,eost, , ted ante or whent to take upon himself the respon- ment, who certainly always did display to the best advantage Irish people, it was such a declaration. That was as much as
N °•11,) f vja' sUbjes at had occurred. He had been at- such wares as he had to offer to the House ?—( Laughter. ) to say the Roman Catholics were wrong, and we were
'4%04 tont ° lowed la -ted to the abuse of hired counsel, and Even he, with all his art, could show them nothing but right. —(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shaw.) Yes, yes (conti-
tha tett of ent to sor in this deb •
ate might attack him but a most beggarly account of empty boxes He had tld them nued the Noble Lord), of course the Hon. and Learned
‘Ct hou._riegli„e 'nit tO it all - ' ' •d d that before Easter th y • ' o'
• • • d d' Ihe (Lord Hovvick) firml b
e eers -°' for 'I nee, but 't ,), a •—(Cheers.) He might be In. ee . were.to introduce a Registration Member thinks so ,an so. it
h h was to include anee le islatin ny Ise-
tvi,,tsti -.) r., tame . 1 s unintentional. He thanked Bill, %vele xtension of the county franchise. lieve , but what he complained of was g g upo t.at
thm lc:" befo-t 0 wow ez::,llt they gave to his statements.— and relieve the town voters from some vexatious formalities. opinion.—(Hear.) Catholics had been admitted to an equality of
'glom
utel failee the gousew advert very briefly to the general He had told them also that A commission had been appointed to civil rights. And the Legislature should not tell them by
*obit Lth reßab4roln the .;,.,,1.-15 heard with great satisfaction inquire into the law and practice in Ireland in relation to the their legislation that their creed was false and idolatrous,
1,4 e Ord, h_ to the ,n_!,:t.it. Hen. Baronet and the Noble occupation of land ; and.that was all positively of the slightest which in effect the Hon. and Learned Member for the Urti-
ttleregtint quittrvever, seetst Wished Church in Ireland. The importance which the Right H.on. Baronet had to offer, at a versity of Dublin had done._(Hear, hear.) Roman Catholics
.ne pne att Prem. ~u:ed " willing to wound " though he time which he himself had admitted was so critical that all the were as conscientious in their religious belief as Protestants, and
la rote voeate fcu' to strik -1' ' - •al force of Ireland was arrayed against them and w th L • 1 ' - • • h• di belief at
Iti'orusevs,tant reti 9 the pro, e• —(Cheers. )He was physic . .
._, , as e egis. attire should not either insinuate t eir
.s .
te atilld -,,,-"'n Wicht" as est es.tant Church —(Cheers)—and only kept down by positive military f2rce—that was all the that conviction or scoff at that religion, by proclaiming one
lite" ''st."---( Che ''''e State -
a_blished by law should be upheld Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of state. for the Home De- creed as " the ground of religious truth," and treating all who
mile rana, _
..,1...s atid . eln every portion of the United pertinent, was able to suggest to the British. Hou.se of Com. dissented from it as. if they were unworthy of consideration.—
It:biishile marainicat inocrealter• cheers ) It appeared to him , roons. Now, with respect to the Bill for registration, such a (Hear, hear.) What right could he have to assume the
Pa , Noiseid Chu:l.'4 °'
e the ity in the Noble Lord to say that 1 measure was greatly wanted ; and the extension. of the county privilege of judging upon the respective merits of the Roman
, tiia,e-em Lo.4u should Leto& were above persuasion, the ; franchise, if given in a liberal and confiding spirit, eyould be of Catholic and the Protestant.religions? Did he not remember
i'litetr: ems wljch °light to D
teecen.pheld in all its entegrity. ! great advantage, as 1
't would remove a great and ying wrong. that more than half the Christian world adhered to that faith,
e-list4eoi,t hat rneasuPa'aed the II
oti ect that the Protestant ; —( Hear. hear.) He trusted that
ltit would be conceived in a that it had sent its mi • '
ssionaries to the most remote parts of the
avers \ Ireiaa , re if tis_
~. ion would never have con- I spirit that would not be a newHienshuo
ecdoitcewa
led under the guise ld h b h •
elir exerlionstromoted the good of their fellow-
, bei ', lie " ' was t "'Y old not believe th P ould turn out a real wmorn 'awnd °thYet
t'lliata:',ll pro•erspehe of a to) be upheld.-- (Cheers eand rotestant of a boon.d—.(fHeoar
ithweaorti•l)d remov: a wrong which was very aned the privatiognsertlyteyeen?lunre'd,andavewahmo,
lebywoothfeiorf streierrisniga!
toto7ristie
_tide to a
teerrniroeatiorsal distribution ofepeaurnis
t re-s , b
level a nße,ti ast
'the same time, unless it was coupled with cerity.?—( Hear, hear, and cheei-s.) ire aisserted that they
Vtinqt:t.......(Zhea sect, the
lartital one, but the former was' the gother measur'es, he Could tell the Right Hon. Ra:ronet its only , should now do full and ample justice to the people of Ireland,
I,.4telit,° the ait ers: ) The et't* was the es=ence of an es.a- ' real value would be, that it oould put new arms ioto.the hands and tha:t at the earliost possible period. If they had granled
I t t ,
.. ht ~ eratiens _ . night Hon Gentl
tate the ii `-nurch arid imaq.o • eman then 'of the friends of Ireland, and thus ertable them to ansist On the , Catho.hc Emancipation at art earlier period, and had shown
ti, ' told °'ne.o ca' and said i r vernents made in the Irish redress of other more su i
bstant al grievances. With respect to ', after it a sense of confidence in the Irish people—if some years
ill %it., tubes tholie 0, • t was unjust and un ene h • ' It. to land, he trusted that that ago they had consented to the Appropriation clause--(Loud
g rous, t e commission re a ing
r g w to attaek theen
1.1,1 etas as piera were rel. d
ieve from church- mi ht also prove advantageous, but he confesied he cries of " Hear, hear")—such a formidable systematic agitation
',it th 0d,..... more c , Protestant Church as the g a dbt on that point. ' would not now pervade that couutry. He warned that House
e 4. (0 ,• • axeulated t y had. could not help entertaining some ou s
ita, ssPP anion: ek__ . 0 . keep alive excitement It was perfectly true that the social condition of Ireland was before, that by the withdrawal of this clause from the Irish
‘qerat)e oeurs ) h ,
. rs were e_.,. : 1 ere was an impression in that respect greatly neglected. Serne improvement was , Church Bill they left behind them a much larger demand, and
vry much
• °Pposed to each other most urgently called for, but it was another question whether 1 one which would come speedily upon them. If they had only