The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

LONDON, SA,TUR_DAY MORNI NG, MARCH 2, 1844,

Ills T-Ti;n:"Frienci_thOleplber for Bridport - was about to humblest Officer, the constable as he did in the case of
ask him that evening when it intention of her some friend of his who was now he. (Sir J. Giaham) be-
Majesty's .Government to proCee d'with measures of great lieved- outlaw, He, again, attacked the conduct, of
practical importance, on which tl le greatest ,anxiety in the the public prosecutor. At another time it was the wit-
public mind prevailed, and
,wl aclh he. adMitted it was nesses whom he -assailed. Upon the whole the Hon.
necessary-to proceed with without delays,he alluded to Gentleman had a most morbid sensibility—an instinctive
the Factories Bill and the 'Poor-law. Now' he begged to dread,. as it were, of political inquiries.—(Hear, and
remind. the House that since the_protrasited debate on laughter from the Ministerial benches.) . And he seemed
'the affairs of Ireland, they had had two flays for supply, to be greatly alarmed that justice had at last overtaken.
and.. on each of thoie occasions the lions Member political offenders. He wished him joy.—(Hear, hear,
for Rochdale made a motion before going into and a laugh.) But with respect to his own (Sir J. Gra-
Committee, for the avowed purpose of obstruct- ham's) conduct, he had the approval of the majority of
ing the progress of the votes.H(lear, hear.) So, that House.—(Laughter from the Opposition benches.),
also, the Hon. Gentleman,.adopting the sane line, and He saw 'arranged opposite-to him, notwithstanding some
pursuing the same course, not Content with one motion,
,preparation, a strong matter of parties opposed to the
that evening made a second, re-opening nearly. all. the Government.. They (the Ministers) had made no such
questions .with reference to the conduct of the trial, preparation, but still he felt confident that • .without,
which had already undergone protracted discussion. having made; any such preparations in appealing to the
Under. these circumstances he must anticipate the sense, the feeling, and the judgment of that House, the
question of the Honourable Member for Brid- -Hon. Gentleman would not succeed-in his motion.
port, by stating that it- was impossible for her " Lord J. RUSSELL said that he certainly made no
Majesty's Government- to fix .any precise time for pro- preparations—(Cluers_ and laughter)---for this debate,
ceeding with the measures to which the question re- nor did he intend to take any other part in it than what
ferred.,-(Hear, heals- from the Ministerial benches.) ho felt called upon to take in consequence of what fell
Now with reference to the, asotion of -the Hag. Gentle- from the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Honour-
man, he at once avowed that her Majesty's. Goverement able Gentleman said he believed it was the practice of
observing in.the early part of last. year the language those who were concerned in the executive department
which was used at large meetings assembled in Ireland in of the country—at least so far as the Home Department
rapid succession, did think it their i;nperative duty was concerned—to send persons,' when the excited state
to obtain clear, full, authentic, and satisfactory of-the country required it, to obtain reports of what took
evidence as to the, language employed at these meetings. place at public meetings. ' He would say, at once, that if
He said decidedly that he should have betrayed his duty he were in the Government, and if the excited state of
to the public if.he had omitted every fair opportunity of the public mind, either in. England or Ireland, required
obtaining authentic information. Now he saw Hon. Gen- it—if large.meetings were held, and if it appeared to
tlemen on the other side opposed to him—he was afraid him, on reading the. reports of what passed at- those
bitterly opposed to him—in party politics, but he would meetings, that anything of a seditious, or dangerous
ask them whether, at alltimes, it had not been the practice tendency, had been said, he -would consider it it his duty
of the executive Government, when popular excitement to obtain correct reports of the proceedings.—(Hear,
was running high, and immense public meetings . were hear.) He did not know that he would have done any-
being assembled,. to obtain authentic information by thing but what the Right Hon. Gentleman had done—
means of shorthand-Writers astothe language addressed namely, apply to Mr. Gurney for a short-hand writer,
to meetings of this description?—(Hear, hear, from Lord in whom he could place confidence, and send him to take
John Russell.) The simple question was whether the correct reports of what had taken place, more
means employed for obtaining information were fair and especially it the language was of such a character
legitimate. Now, the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to as might render it -necessary to institute legal proceed-
use, he would not say. offensive, but certainly very strong ings. lie would say there would be no security for the
language with reference to the course which had been country if reports of . meetings -were to appear in the
pursued in the case -under consideration. He (Sir newspapers, and allowed to be circulated by them, con-
James Graham) did not shrink from avowing that all taining ;perhaps language of a seditious and revolu-
the • means which had been adopted to obtain tionary kind, and if the Government of the country
information in . this case had been adopted by alone were not
.to have cognisance of what passed at
him; and on his personal responsibility.—(Cheers -them. He was not now speaking of any particular
from the Ministerial benches, and " Hear, hear," from meetings, but of possible meetings, at which language of
both sides of the House.) He did • not wish to share such a character might have been used. He thought.
this responsibility _ with any of his colleagues—(Hear, the country would be placed in great danger if the
hear),---he was the person who was responsible, and
,Minister did not do his duty in such a case.—(Hear.)
from that responsibility he would not shrink.—(Hear.) Taking the view which the Right Hon. Gentleman did
The course he adopted with respect to Mr. Bond Hughes of those meetings. he thought he would not be doing his
was, to apply. to Mr. Gurney, the gentleman at the head duty if he did not take steps to have correct reports of
of the reporting establishment for the Government, and what had been done at those meetings.—(hear, hear.)
ask him to get an intelligent person and a good short- He thought that a person. employed as a shorthand
hand writer, and
.direct him to procure this person's writer, and paid at' the rate at which those persons were
services, at the usual rate of remuneration given to gen- usually paid, was a person very different from those
tlemen so employed. Mr. Gurney, in accordance with who were .formerly employed by the Govern-
those. directions, procured Mr. Bond Hughes, and that, ment, and who were called spies.—(Cries of
gentleman was sent
_over to Ireland, to take short- f‘ Hear, hear.".) But if ..he was a. person employed se-
hand notes of the speeches made at those meetings. cretly, and went into the secret councils of persons
He (Sir J. Graham) was perfectly willing to produce a -supposed tcs he - disaffected—if he watched their lan-
return of all the moneys expended under this head. He guage, and reported to his employers what passed at
should most freely give returns of &lithe moneys ex- those secret meetings, such a person might go beyond
pended under the item of Mr. Gurney's shorthand esta- what was correct, and might excite and promote that
blishment, and in those documents it would be found very disaffection and sedition, that very _treason, which
that Mr. Bond Hughes did not receive any higher rem- he was employed to report, But a person who goes to
neration for his services on those trials than any execute fairly and faithfully the commands .he has re-
other Government shorthand writer ; and he was ceived, to take a report of what passes at public meet=
convinced that the Honourable Member for Finsbury ings, excites no one to - the commission of any crime
would find. that this remuneration had not been extrava- --,he merely states what he sees, and takes down what
gents The Hon. Member had referred to what had he hears. .Then, how could any person conceive—how
occurred concerning the mistake about Mr. Barrett's could any person have a .right to complain of it as a
name ; but with this exception, there was not grievance, when he -is simply sent among them to
one portion of Mr. Hughes's evidence which had been take down ,their words? The -Right Honourable
shaken, even by the strictest cross-examination. He Gentleman then proceeded to the other part of his
should. say, with respect to Mr. Charles Ross, conduct, upon which, certainly (continued his Lordship),
that the first occasion upon which the Government I am not se willing, because I am not so able, to
thought fit to send a shorthand writer to Ire- give an opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman re-
land was in the month of June, and he ferred to the corroboration which he required .of the
avowed that he had known Mr. Ross for many Government .reports, from the reporters of the
years, and felt confident that he was a most newspapers. If that .was - merely asking those
accurate reporter and a trustworthy and honourable man. who took down reports of proceedings, to appear at the
He (Sir J.. Graham) knowing him to be such, on his own trial and give evidence as 'to what they had so taken
responsibility, sent for Mrs Ross, and told'him that the, down, in order to verify *hat had been taken by the
Government wished a shorthand writer to proceed to Government reporters, I cannot see. what matter of
Ireland for the purpose of attending a meeting that was blame there. could be in making that request..--(Hear,
to be held at Donnybrook.. His direction to Mr. Ross hear.) Whether it might not injure the credit of a
was, " You will proceed there—you will take an accurate newspaper if it should be known that its reporters were
note of what is said, and be prepared to verify upon oath in the habit of assisting the Government in its prosecu-
that which you. hear." The pecuniary arrangement tions—that was a matter for the proprietors of news-
was that Mr. Ross was to receive 501. for his travelling papers themselves to consider ; that was a matter of
expenses. Mr. Voss did proceed to Ireland—he attended newspaper policy and newspaper morality, with which
the meeting at Donnybrook, and he took a verbatim the Government has no concern.. But I must say that
report of it. Subsequently at the end of the session of' the validity 'of the Right Hon. Gentleman's defence,
Parliament, 'before Mr. Bond Hughes was sent over, with regard to Mr; Charles Ross, depends entirely on
another.. arrangement was made with Mr. Ross, which the accuracy with which that individual observed his in-
was that he should again proceed to Ireland, and remain structions. If he openly made his report to the Govern-
there during the recess—the whole of the recess fromthe ment department in-Ireland or England, and did not
Ist or 2d of A ugust, until the first week in February, conceal his character, then the instructions given him
for the sum of 350/. It would appear, when Mr. Our- were proper, and were properly observed ; but if, on the
ney's account was presented to the House, that the rate contrary, Mr. C. Ross concealed his character in any
of payment to Mr. Ross was.considerably less than the degree, or wormed himself . into the councils and
rate of payment to Mr. Bond Hughes, and the persons projects of those engaged in the repeal agitation, then I
employed in Mr. Gurneys establishment. Now the ac- cannot doubt what the. Right Hon. Baronet says about the
cusation was, that Mr. Ross was sent over by him instructions he gave him, but I must say,- some injury
(Sir James Graham) as a spy. He most solemnly and has been done by those instructions not being duly car-
positively denied that accusation. His directions ried out. I rose for the purpose of stating what I con-
to Mr. Ross were, to go to Ireland and avow himself as sider my duty would have been had I been in the Ser-
the reporter for the. Government. He (Sir J. Graham) vice of the Crown; but the Right Hon. Gentleman has
knew that at that time •Mr. Ross was connected as a re-• spoken of some • compact and alliance between myself
porter with one of the morning papers—he believed the and Mr. O'Connell. lam perfectly well aware of the
Morning Chronicle. He was also aware that at the,end effect which, during the existene_e* the late Govern-
of the session of Parliament Mr. Ross went to Ireland ment, the constant reiteration of thW charge—(Hear)—
for the Standard. But his directions to that gentles of the assertion that the patronage of the Government
man were, " You will. proceed to Ireland as the was placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell, produced
reporter for the Government." He did not sanction any to the injury of the Government, though the charge was
concealment whatever. He did not sanction it either di- entirely unfounded. Although the statement that there
rectly or indirectly. But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. exists some compact between Mr. O'Connell, and myself
Duncombe) said that after all it was well-known that has no foundation, yet I will never shrink if I see Mr.
Mr. Ross was employed by the Government. (Mr. O'Connell, or any one else—any other person of less
- Duncombe made some observation across the table which talent, or moving in a humbler sphere of life—whatever
Gentleman to say that Mr. Ross had.concealed the fact quence of that :declaration—I will never shrink, when I
we did not hear.) 'He certainly understood the lion. may be the obloquy to which I may be exposed in conse.
Of his being the Government reporter, and that he had see a person treated in the manner in which Mx. O'Con-
travelled with Mr. Steele forty-two miles while he was nell has been treated, from declaring in this House, that
Governmentreporter. Now this he (Sir J. Graham) ab- that person has not had a fair trial.—(Loud cheers.)
solutely and positively denied. No obloquy that the Right Hon. Gentleman can cast
-Mr..T.'DUNCOMBE—It 'was his own evidence. upon me—no obloquy that the party to which the Right
Sir J. GRAHAM had not the least objection, under Hon. Gentleman belongs can cast upon me, for. acting
these circumstances, to produce the account of all in this ,manner, shall deter me from doing what I con-
monies paid to Mr. Ross, and of all moneys paid sider my duty to the Constitution.---(Loud cheers.) The
to Mr. Bond Hughes, and of the instruc- Right Hon: Gentleman prides himself upon the results
tions given to them. Those instructions were of this trial; but since he •so prides himself, I will state
certainly verbal, for which he (Sir J. Graham) was re- my belief, that if the: same offence had been committed
sponsible. Now, with regard to the case of Mr. Jackson. in this country, 'supposing the Attorney-General for
That was the third case mentioned by the lion. Gentle- England had pursued a somewhat similar course, we
man. With Mr. Jackson he (Sir J. Graham) had had should have had a different charge from the judge—'
no communication. Mr. Jackson was a reporter con- (Loud cheers)—and a,different verdict from the jury._
nected with the Morning Herald, and was resident (Continued Rheering.) • That is my opinion, and be the
in Dublin. The Crown solicitor was bound to obtain- persons Who they may, I never will cease from endea-
evidence to corroborate the testimony of Mr. Bond vouring to obtain for the people of Ireland the full en-
Hughes and Mr. Ross, and ho ascertained that Mr. joyment of all those rights and privileges, of the posses-
Jackson had taken notes of some of the meetings. He sion of which the people of England are so Justly
therefore communicated with Mr. Jackson,
-
and proud.—(lmmense cheering.)
iwnithw.htohsee
service
euctors
Mr. of
jactkhseon
was employed. he had been.: accused of charging the Government with
expenses incur- employing spies, Morning Herald, Mr. DUNCOMBE rose to reply. In the first place
A return should be made of all the law and calling those persons spies who
red in the late prosecutions, in which would appear the were fair and honeurable agents. He had done no such
amount of all the moneys that had been paid to Mr. thing. When a reporter at public meetings, acting for
Jackson. He must again declare that no communication the Government, confessed himself as the agent for the
Whatever had taken Place between the Government and Government, there was certainly nothing to justify the
Mr.- Jackson further than he had stated. - application of the word -spy to him.—(Hear, hear.) He
Mr. DUNCOMBE----Or the Morning Herald. did not all that man a spy—far from it. Mr. Bond
- Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed that the House Hughes vvas- rye spy.—(Cheers from both -sides.) He
must determine whether, in. a case of this descrip- went to these meetings, and openly acknowledged him-
tion,4 it- was not the bounden duty of the Government self at every one of them as an agent from the Govern-
to bring as much corroborative evidence as possible Of ment, and he had himself manfully avowed that, on all
oceasions,. he was.reeeived with that courtesy and respect
to which every gentleman so employed, and. so avowing
or sneyn s
I%emaap
obtainedky e by the
openly Government,
anand
honourably. provided t_hEaet
had no hesitation in avowi that a. communication had .his employment, -was entitled.--(Hear, hear.) In his
-been made by the Government to the Morning Herald (Mr. Duncombe's) opinion, such courtesy would be ex-
stthesetipme
and Standard newspapers, requesting the proprietors of tended, throughout England, as wellats Ireland, to gen-
those papers to allow their reporters to corroborate the tlemen, engaged in those arduous duties, and it was
testimony of the persons employed by the Government. desirable it should be so, for only through
the
He (Sir J. Graham) had told the House the returns medium of reports could there be • any chance
which, on the part' of the Government, he was willing.too of a. redress Of grievances.—(Hear, hear.) 'But he
assent to the production of. He was willing begged to say
that the position of Mr. Charles Ross was
produce a return of all moneys paid, and all instructions very different to that of Mr. Bond Hughes.—(Hear.)
given on the part of the Government, with respect to His conduct had been very different.—(Hear, hear.)
the late .prosecutions'; and he would add, that either The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) said he em-
now, or-on! some future occasion, he would lay on' the ploYed Mr. Charles Ross, knowing .at the time that he
table a return of the rate of -pay to the reporters em- was a servant to the Morning Chronicle. He left it to
ployed on Mr. Gurney's establishment, both in Ireland the Right Hon. Baronet to reconcile it with his own con-
and Wales, on similar occasions, from which it would science, to be thus employing a man whose services be-
be seen that the payments that had been made on the longed to others, and those others differing so widely
late- occasion were not greater in proportion than on from him in politics.—(Cheers.) Of course with that
previous ones.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to that high sense of honour, and that regard for morality which
portion of the Hon. Gentleman's motion to which he had ever distinguished the public conduct of the Right
must decidedly object. He objected to the last return„ Hon-Baronet, before employing Mr. Charles Ross, he
of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, because it contained" -had doubtless written to the proprietors of the Morning
insinuations that could not be misunderstood. It con- Chronicle to advise them of his intention so to do.—
tained insinuations that to the Morning Herald and the' —(Cheers, and loud' laughter.) But what was the con-
-Standard newspapers sums of money had been duct of Mr. Ross , Dnl he obey the instructions
paid, and that some -corrupt practices had takes _which, seeing that the Right Hen. Baronet (Sir James
place.=---(Hear.) He (Sir J. Graham, in the most solemn Graham) asserted that evening he had given to him, no
manner as a gentleman denied the truth of such asser- d6ubt he had done so—did Mr. Charles Ross, he asked,
tions, and he contended that the Hon. Gentleman had no obey those instructions ?—(Hear, hear.) No he did not.
right in the shape of a return to make such insinuations —(Cheers.) Mr. Ross, in his examination at the trial,
.—insinuations that conveyed an indelible stain.—(Hear, was asked—" Did 'you at the meetings you' attended
hear.) - The gentleman connected with the public press state yourself to be an accredited agent and re-
possessed fine and honourable feelings—(Hear,thear)= 'porter of the Government ?" His words, in an-
and more incapable of doing that dirty work to which swer, are s certainly not."— (Hear, hear, hear.)
the Hon. Gentleman had adverted. , He-was quite. re- He was asked, with referenee to another occasion, whe-
solved, therefore, to resist. the 'production of the last ther he got a good place on the platform. His answer
return—he was aware that in 'doing so he was giving to was, " Yes, I got a very good place on the scaffold,
the Han: Gentleman an advantage which he would not which I obtained through the. proprietor.of the Dublin
be slow to avail himself of, viz., the repeating of the in- Evening Mail." Why was this place given to him ?
' sinuation with doubleeffect that there was something con- Because' the proprietor of that paper thought he was in
coiled. But he againrepeated,in themost solemn manner, the' aame interest as himself. When he went out a se-
that for that 'insinuation, there was not the least ground. cond time as Government reporter, he was employed in
With respeCt to the last return which the Hon. Gentle- the service of the Standard. He was asked whether he
man had-moved for—namely, a return of the names of apprised -the Standard that he was employed by the
the persons now employed by Mr. Gurney to. report the Government? His reply was, " Certainly nOt." The fact,
proceedings in the Corn Exchange, after the experience was the only persons in the secret were the Attorney-
which they had had of the posting of Mr. Bond Hughes General and the Right Hon. Baronet. Now he con-
in the streets of Dublin as a spy and informer, he (Sir tended that, according to the definition laid down by the
J. Graham) was not prepared to hold up those persons Noble LOrd the Member for the -City of London, and
to public execration, as he would do, by consenting to agreed to by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, Mr.. Ross came
give that return.—(Hear, hear.), Before he sat down; under the' description of a spy.—(No, no, from the
he would just observe, that in those times, it was no Ministerial benches.) The Right Hon. Baronet had
easy task to insure the administration of public justice called him a trustworthy and honourable man. He
against great offenders, without incurring some portion (Mr. T.Duncombe)left it to the people and to the country
of public obloquy. It was his painful -duty to risk.. in- .to decide whether it was honourable on the part of Mr. Ross
cursing that obloquy. But it was a proud satisfaction, to go to these meetings as a Government agent, without
that upon the whole he had succeeded—administerixig avowing" the facts'. With regard to the Morning Herald,
Only the law, and asking for no extraordinary powers— he had never said a, .word against Mr. Jackson, any
in-putting down a dangerous conspiracy (as we under- more than he
.had impugned the. conduct alai-. Bond
stood the Right Hon. Gentleman),' and bringing to jus- Hughes. "Mr. Jackson's conduct reflected credit upon
`'tice 'great public offenders. In doing so, he had lim's At the termination of his examination, lie was so
acted conscientiously, faithfully, and honourably ; ashamed of his employers, that he exclaimed, "So help
and he was not • going to be deterred from me Goat till the *solicitor for the Crown sent for me, I
'continuing in that course. He would remind the House was not aware that the'notes which `I bad made were to
of the account the lion. Gentleman had given of his,own be used for the prosecution."—(Hear, hear:). Now it
ebnduct to-night. One time he attacked the judgeengaged appeared that the Right Hon. Baronet did apply to the
-In political trials—anothet- time he attacked even the .‘Morning Herald and the s44ndar4 for fan!
osl4 1 „ 1

f'what he (yr. T. Duncombe) wanted was, an account of
the sums paid To 7-fitro-tis—erziployed- by the Morning
-Herald and the Standard newspapers. Mr. Ross
stated, in his examination, that he would not
have it known for 50,0001. that he went
to Ireland as a Government agent; he said he would only
have gone as-a newspaper reporter. On being asked if
he would have gone for 75,000 L, he said, " Well, I think
I would;" but he wpuld not under 75,0001. have acknow-
ledged to the Irish people that he was the agent of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Laughter.) Did the Right
Hon. Baronet allude to the meeting of his (Mr: Dun-
combe's) constituents which he attended last night ? It
was possible that there might have been a Government
reporter there—(Laughter)---but, at •all events, whoever
gave the Right Hon. Baronet his information of what
passed there, it was very bad. That meeting was called
to take into consideration the best measures for expres-
sing their opinions in favour of the motion which his
Hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale was about to
bring before the House. It was true also that the meet-
ing had 'expressed in strong terms their unabated
confidence in the humble individual who was then ad-
dressing them.--(Laughter.) The meeting last. night
had not the slightest reference to any other objects con-
templated in his motion, and he thought that such an
insinuation was most uncandid. The Right Hon. Baronet
had accused him (Mr. Duncombe) of acting as a
public prosecutor. He should pursue the same
course which he always had done, and whether it were
a judge, a jury, or even the Right Hon. Baronet
himself, he should consider it his duty to bring any op-
pression they might commit before the House so long as
he held a seat in it.

Mr. BELLEW would say a few words with respect
to the defence of the Attorney-General for Ireland,
that their reason for refusing to give the names of the
witnesses was, that cards had been handed about Dublin
denouncing Mr. Hughes as a spy and an informer; but
the House should recollect that this had not bedone
until Mr. Hughes had been accused of having committed
perjury—most unknowingly he (Mr. Bellew) would say,
because all that occurred with respect to Mr. Hughes
was solely owing to the Crown Solicitor's conduct. He
would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Attorney-
General for Ireland, if he had received any explana-
tion :upon this subject, as a sufficient time
had now elapsed since the conclusion of the debate.
He could only say that this was one of the many pro-
ceedings during the trial which had created an impres-
sion on the minds of the people of Ireland, that from be-
ginning to end there had not been fair play in the late
nacwithstanding the opinions expressed on
the otlfertifinif the HOuse, that impression would con-
tinue.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and th 6
House divided—
For the motion .
Against it

73
144

Majority against the motion —7l
LOCAL POOR-LAW ACTS.

Mr. D. M'LEAN wished to know whether the Right
llon. Baronet the Home Secretary intended to refer
local Poor-law Acts to a Select Committee ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that such was not his
ntention.