The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-27 00:00:00

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dorm 298,000". 298,000". were to be voted this year, and occasions were very-frequent)- the least duty .conneeted
titan RI
712e31,a93Cbti/ ye
years there was no less a. sum- than with his important office' was retinired.
.So. important
voted . for the same. • There was were the duties. of the:-Intister that he (Sir C. Napier)
10,090 Z voted for the support of officers, widows - and would hot-enter upon the command of any ship
hildr
teat
sPI, Which allowed about Bs. 'or, 9s. -a-week unless- .he'-: had "a master- "upon whose skill and
toi heir support, and if they were mot able knowledge he could- rely with the greatest confidence
The live' " that they -must go to ra• workhouse. yet so badly were ihings Managed' that this important
14'amount of the pensions of the widows and children officer in a first-rate vessel was actually paid less than a
I:less...Tray list was considerably less than the navy, . similar officer -in a small .eraft. .He hope.d. the Board of
greaLufs4 the number of men in the army was so much Admiralty would . re-consider . the position.
.of those
ssere'vr•
.The reason was • obvious ; the:. army accounts officers.- -He 'next came --to -his own proposition. lie
for Published, the navy accounts were net.- -Before asking reated,. he approved ,of what the Right .Hon.• Baronet
,sany vote he trusted they should be made Acquainted had' done, and he only wished 'to make the Right Hon.
eilttih:e number of widows and children, and the grades Gentleman's plan- a little-mere perfect, which could be
And tee': 134:ents. .It was right that 'the House -effected. with very little trouble. He would now read to
-A co s country should have ' . the information: the House what was his
own opinion in the
year 1828,
rannttee ought t -to inquire thoroughly' into these previous .to the -Right 'Hens- Baronet's being in the
fitters, - Were this done such an, amount as -that- now Admiralty, respecting the constitution of the Board of
iikilmthe. Finance
on the list would-not be tolerated.. _Such a COmmittea -Admiralty: Those . opinions.. were addreaSed to a
' 9 became
Committee of 1828, would look search- Member of Parliament, who_ in the year 183
dosy intsethese, pensions, and: he was satisfied, without.- First. -Lord or. that Board. (The Honourable . and.
lioii:qthianj..u.!
,tice.to -any one', materially reineetheamount Gallant Member then' read the following extracts:—
us „7,seest upon it: - - ' • • s , - "As itis . generally supposed the, office of Lord High
mi,,`• -eIELDING, who was -scarcely aedible' in the ' Admiral is too- -high a-situation for an individual; re-
eservrY, was understood to say, that before supplies course must be hid to a*Board, which, though an irres
to: Fronted they ought to ascertain whether the taxes Ponsible.body, may be -COnatitiited. much better than it
gepriontiPosed were levied in a fair • and proper manner. now is:. if acivilian must sit 'at its head he `should be
Press; e,_Bted against the income-tax, as being the.nsost op- First.' 'Lord ; if am Admiral, Commander-in-Chief of
The Je`azin its operation.which had exiqedforcenturies., the Fleet ; he should- be assisted by the Vice and Rear-
liaLraoseityyersTnent poorergig down 'the hatted and Admirals:' of Great Britain, which sivations should be
the classes by their.•support of the abolished as sinecures, and conferred-on the two senior
ri3i7"!lB- Poor-laws ; and there was a similar feeling naval Lords, thereby causing a saving of 900 L
(4 of in the minds of the middle classes in'eonaequence a-year. -Their duties -- `should be the same as
tilini °Peration of the income-tax. He . should cer- - they now are ; an Admiral as superintendent
aos / vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member of. the s Dockyards, "another admiral :to superin- • ri,tteeiniale
-.Jr BOW- . ' - tend the victualling and 'medical. departments ; a 'cap-
Ind, %RING wished to state briefly the reasons .tai„ of the • fleet to assist the First Lord of the 'Admi-
e ling him to support the motion of his Hon. Friend. ralty in his inspections; and be the. man to whom.
ere 'id so because he thought it was one of those officers.should address themselves, instead of to his pri-
tion'tateeres,titutional principles which a Member of the vate secretary, and ha should be accessible at all time&
pew_ a a right to adopt, when he thought that 'the The Treasurer. of the. Navy, who should be a good
thelL'ewereunfairlyrepresented, for it was essential that financier and speaker; and who should bring the esti-
perro °Pie, When they were taxed, should have some mates before the House ; the two lay Lords should be
peoldil to represent their opinions in the Muse. The abolished,. and if they reilly'have any duty to perform,
thi e c'f this country amounted to between twenty and let our naval offieers do it. Attached to this Board (be-
Posrts! milliOns, and out of those, not one - million were side what there now is)- should be -a- surveyor'of the
a, right
of votes ; and, therefore, the great mass 'had navy,- storekeeper-generar, aecmintant-general, superin-
eoerro t° be dissatisfied when they saw such a want of tendent of transports, physician of the fleet, purser of the
Gef.e44thie,y.oonruetrt
ilita.rt, and of' want of economy on that fleet, and adjutant-general of the marines. ' All Cor- '
. respondence should be carried on* with the members o. f
UNCOMBE wished to ask the Right Hon. the Board charged with the department you had bust-
when then oPPosite, the Chancellor of the- Exchequer, ness with, and; if dissatisfied with his decision, a letter,
„oesa,, returns which he had moved for upon a former addressed to the Secretary ,of the Admiralty, should be
won;tc'n, with respect to. the Income-tax Commission, submitted to them- on-board-days. and each individual
The be laid upon the table. member- should also bring forward such subject as he
Was „s CI upon
of. the EXCHEQUER,. Who slid not. hink himself competent to decide on. When the
that .shsvarly inaudible in thegallery, was understood to say - First Lord. of the Admiralty .had' not time or in-
laid ; °Of the the returns to which the Hon. Gentleman clination 'to - make his inspections at the different
third alluded were already nearly completed, And the naval stations, the vice or rear-admirals should be clis'•
sir, w ouu,ld be prepared as soon as possible: -- --'- , - patched, they should hoist. their flags, and, for the time
tleve.,'"CHE ' . condemned the course which the being, be superior to all admirals; the chiefs of the other
tlear,,;;:_r!letlt pursued. with- respect to Ireland in en- departments in like manner, should be paramount in
st,sd
o'l mg togovern there by military occupation, in- the dock-yards,' victualling departments, and hospitals,
°f
whi el'Y justice and conciliation.. Those grievances but should have nothing to do with the fleet. The First
done eti the .Irish:, !people. complained :. should he Lord, accompanied by the' captain of •the fleet, to in-
°l thawaY , with. —end- ' above - • all-. the- . -incubus struct him. in the particular parts which he did not
Righterhs 4,,,gstablished 'Church should be removed. The understand, should be commander-in-chief in all the
..
._ ..
•
'eetth '"*..,s Gentleman - opposite had .not .attemptedto departments.") The Honourable and Gallant- Member-
trap„, e adficulties in Ireland; they had net striven to then went on-to say that he. wanted to see. the naval
told Pole with tne canieidrthe present 'eeiterisent. He Board conducted in the same way as the Board of Ord-
had 11"0".,e Right Hon. Gentleman sent
e-Government nance was. It was quite impossible that the Aecouatant-
Pes %tee military possession 'of Ireland, as ' had been re- General could attend to all the things imposed upon
IroOps Said in the course-of the present debate. The hint such as the description of the fleet, courts-mar-
t'''. th h"'' P°Bseilion Vf,tlie barracks, the war steamers tials the management of the various stations throughout
lueeeen aiaours, but the inhabitants held possession,of the World, &c.. It was thereupon necessary that some
e°3ailtentr,y• The country held by. the deep feelings of remedy should be adoptedfor the present state of things.
°te ;; wuieh the Irish... - epic entertained 'for their In ' pectto the building-of ships he admitted there was
thatij.etelplse Although •Holl:s Members might consider a great deal: f talent displayed.
.He. gave to Captain
4)tted Ignorant, they enderstood the principle of a Syi*onds great credit for what he haddone,but Captain
the deesinentarchys and dictnot. attribute ter. ho Sovereign syntonds, like every other man, had his crochets, and e
t'o'ell te'llt,,enciessof her Ministry. They . remembered quired the superintending eye. There was ne dou t hhee
tisiw'ulsei "1(11k-- fealikS.-eifFeSSOd .bY, her Majesty had. built some of thefinest ship,s in the world, and t
tilimt not ta-ercteland • when. she ascended the, throne... -He Admiralty in employing him had done quite right. They,
id II disrespect to Hon; Gentlemen,op.posite, were right to secure six. or seven builders, in order to
14.ekt lei aid 44.- consider they were equal to encounter the have the best workin the end that the•country could se-
sittlsr. teaotand alarming _crisis.' -____ e ~e, .. cure. - Bilt:he• must- tell the Admiralty plainly that in
4 bro ORNF,, said _ghat. if the-Hon, Member who their building they were not so. clever" l they thought
tally 81413Ktakkt
,forwar_ d _ the_ present motion-.had
and Navy Board ought to be
ed:. themselves. The French had a far better class of steam.
toPported,,,°llll .reasons . for the course,..hetwenl4:•PaXe vessels than. England, the. .
shPostp, n'l; ra, but he did. not see any practical.retts2n- ashamed of such a fact. ,Even ..the Royal steam yacht,
fasted
th-,la‘'g-•t.he eimaideration Of te estimates..., Wny the Albert and Victoria, was a failure.in its constraiction,
-''le -Yllote• be- postponed after, as well as.befare and could not sail .steadily and properly uati
.100
'neat ? N -
No that o_reason existed now t w their postpone-
lalt goad. 'Yuan .not..exist then. If :he van that,. an, tons of ballast had beenplaced in her. Take the Album.
She, was to be the largest in. the , British navy,
is'otda :Quid• beeffeoted, oaany grievance redresse and it Was boasted she should be superior to the
tea e 'lllslsokt the. motion but as it was of so hide& Rodney, Experience had proved that . she was not to
71 attire - - . s,. . .-- • .
~:. be compared 'to the Rodney. He had now finished the
The ,he must.oppose it.
°{lse.then divided when there appeared— s observations ~he had to eddress to the House, .and he
For ttiCinetion.-' "
'''lgainst it - ' - - s 11 ' - apologise.d. 'for detaining it so long.--(Hear, • hear.) -It
105
-.AT 4, • _ was; not his habit
,to. trespass.on the Howe, and he had
Sires sasority against the motion —94 occupied its attention much longer than .usual, But he .
/444 'IsT-Api ... . . . . .
to es of , ER rose, on theniation forgoinguitoCom7, hoped what he had said would be received indulgently
slat . 01ply on the navy estimates, to -bring the by the House, and command the. consideration of the
Ail Utloii •
1, etati e the Board' of Admiralty under the con-- - Board of Admiralty.--(Hear, hear.) .• . ,
in-
en hie,..orthelious - and saidthat it must be adinitted Mr. WILLIAMS said a few words, which were in-
g“tiK ;11aN.
mode
opposite that up to a very late audible in the gallerY. -
-44 even-" ' mod' of slip-building ,was" very ,defectives gr,SYDNEY HERBERT said the Hon. and Gallant
ice 1 . e s R
t,ir d ship this, the greatest maritime country in the Officer had at considerable length criticised the manage-
Ct. OfThobUilding was most inferior to other countries. went of the. Board of Admiralty, with respect to the.
shoplaseeetsmKs ost clumsy, expensive, and inefficient pub- construction of different clasSes'ef ships arid other !nat-
ttoiliesrings ever executed was the dockyard at ters; but he should recollect that these defects existed
seo4gh so' lt cost four or five millions of. money; and, in fOrmer Boards of Admiralty.
et 4t itlefe!ructed at -such enormous cost, it was in e 'Sir C. NAPIER said he had admitted that to be the
1 -
hothe teseletit state of defence.- The progress of' steam case? - -"" • ' - . .
liel't much should have shown that it could have been - Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT—He did not wish to- mis-
-I,rielttree- nth efficiently at a much smaller expense. represent any thing that had fallen from
ought
Hon, and
h Yof eith the Right Hon.. Baronet in the.pro- Gallant Member, but those defects
Admiralty.
' had '4Ol •
he k doll, ving the different 'Boards of Admiralty- charged entirely on. the present Board of the
et,
e...,_ed .
6-I:bhu.t then the question was, whether what With, respert to the statements, made by the Gallant-a 'Settle statuted in their stead was . efficient . Offieer,_ the. first related to .the patronage o_f
.the civil_
sageet.iter th' f°r the purpose. He doubted very much department of the,Admiralty. As a general principle,
4 ers nettY were so, as they. tended to place. the -it:-would be intelligible to say that where naval men
sSarl4 of the aPPointed under the sole control of the were necessarY, naval men should be . employed in the
I tole. Admiralty, who were. changed with every civil- department, . and.
.. were civil men were necessary
‘ml . Istrat.
t,„ Mtrales I°n• The way in which the Lords of the they should employ civilians. But they had gone much
„.."41ties,
.'h conducted their affairs—he would not call it farther than this • they had made 612 additional appoint-
-4,i1v4 ' because that gave offence last year— (Laughter.) ments of that kind to,the civil departments of the doek-
-4.0 tia94 slovenly They just went down to Somers 'yards. He was not oppoSed to the principle where it
11'1111:1Y tiaelie's"4 said, "".t%- 'ell, how do affairs go on?.'.', The was practicable,
.that.naval men should be employed in
on 'kites a Wa.S, " Very well."—(Laughter.) And _the civil services. Ile had himself introduced it into
their onse little chat among themselves, the Y put .Somerset-house.. But he was not blind
.to the fact that
.wi hatsanal
410,1:
Was.
spent tothelVal.-)ted off:—(Laughter.) Then, -some inconvenience . had arisen from it. . If , a naval
, dockyards, he thought --that men was taken as a clerk, he was still looking out for a
11 "kit Tell t° °e complained of relative to them.
.ship, and. when they went to sea there was a continual
'`l re the Admiralty,
l'ktt!'leted with as it Was now conducted, interruption, so that they were constantly teaching men
4little more propriety in distributing its
"er°44ge thaft
le,. 4 riles_ . tinder the former system, .bilt still there .no advantage from. He defeaded the special promotions
what, as soon as it was learned , the service could derive
tsq' TheYeePers°ns empleYed> who had Uever, gone to 'for particular services as absolutely necessary, as rewards
listseterai r•L'CuL erne Gallant Commodore _then referre4 sfer the dangers not only of war, but of such pestilential
ktoris e,,,,,,”urna which he had called for,sshewinsas.the .cliMates.as the coast of Africa. With . respect to . the
tee'°us, lioyed in the navy, and their previeus.occu, Coast ,Guard, all names fox promotion in that service
~I'l for' -!',,,ving moved for these -returns in-1842, he w-ere sent mato the Admiralty by the Comptroller, and
,hej,6'!ls thaStL`,llar returps in 1843,, from whidi •it 'a
tit stance was always adhered to ; there . was no in-
-44 24 t4—„"11 that year 176 persons, who had never . of the Adiiiiiarty having. chosen any others than
Pr,s'ge. d n4vY, Were
_premoted to lucrative situations those so selected. ThereWas,-besideSan objection to the
t ee, ockea a.
kl •• '- Aft s'• '7''''- -Ho gave . great credit to the, -principle of giving promotion- in the -navy'for services
!),,atits,-ila Zalty , Aii.. the regulation, which they . thatfrere.not naval. , With regard to the masters in the'
',at err `shoal' when a ship came into port, the corn- navy, he should not .dwell on „the partieulers., Of their
iliii ofd .be -called upon. to .recomplend .his, „keeping the stores in. Small vesiiels, but, he, might, state.
irishe.trici i ,artificers for_ thesituations. . ano class of.offieers occupied more of the. attention of
,la tkqep,,,,,,Ot consider them competent to fill in the they Admiralty _ than the . masters.. They had been
"tier'
psfh7oie,nits,and he believed that if -they followed promoted to the rank , of commissioned officers_s ;
to the I' e.- it would be attended with considerable one had' 'been , -promoted to the rank of Com-
hst Pets -e Public service He had moved for, a return mender' and - two had been made Lieutenants.
tal t (ma wh h - • into,
Napier—"
Seen ie' ablIA -°- ad .entered the. civil service in —(Sir C. Out of, 450 !") With regard. to
"Iket.the °lents, distinguishing whether . they had the construction of vessels, no ene had a higheradmira-
tt Om ~ihaYl.before,and, if not, what situations they tion of.CaptainSyMonds: than he had ; but 'the: Board
raa h_the_int.s° bad recommended them. ~. He :wanted .to of Admiralty did not consider' any man to be tinefalleibalre:
,stiitsert plit:,.. ,rraation how many gentlemen's servants sln addition tothesship.s constructed by him, tht,lß.
and
int h stile rt-t -to such situations. But the Right: on. had allowed other,buildei a
.t9,2„compete.witit ,
~ .
es, t arosts,:ud that such a return would be invidious • theY had at-that moment no less than nineteen expert..
'.°l‘;;4',Nerie""hgjoy,e'll_ return, distinguishing the civilians' nie4al vessels building,. on lines laid down by different
,' se:4S bas had served in the navy.—(A--laugh.). persons ; thatcompetition induced the greatest anxiety
ilt.i,Ss a • ?nee a servant who wished him in all of - them to give the greatest attention to the
ii4t•-othe,: a situation at the time vacane---there - seienci.,. With respect to the alterations. that had been
Zal,tl4eefile;` itsiaititha_ition vacant 'at the
.sam. same time, and -a made in .the ships with round` sterns, and the Altera-
t l', wh sell, th ,49 a similar application. But _ they tio4 in the boWs and magazines, he contended they were
''t f at es fluting it was unfair to the service; how- necessary. They, must recollect that,' as time
.advanced
'll,i,is::ll,ta th:ltheresultl the places weresfilledflp, but. . science advancedalsO, and the. Board of Admiralty
illta tig. had VivYs—(Hear, hear.) One was' given to conned. itself. to the present -plans of Construction only,
uric is /r4l to 'll'Q-servant in an hotel, 'and. the other they would be behind. other nations, Those changes
ri,ktio, sh°nie -g'entleinan's servant ; but he would. and 'experiments could not be made without'expenae, but
i',l,4t It; 41141 •.`i'mess Much had been said at •• the Ad- • thatexpensewas no more than necessary. He believed
tOli ssb-,4l,4elevvliere about the -management of the the Hon. and Gallant Officer's-own plan- of placing the
)talablu, hisrals. buts , notwithstanding all that -had magazine on board vesseli. had been reported on, and
eigleis it3'-a.s. Ileac °al highness had giveregreat, spirit to stated to .besverys dangerous. .With regard to the
tis't.a...4moted' h ef!r).---and had introduced a system. steainer,. Penelepe, though .inany accusations had
‘,i 14,.,,,_ he, ii -thsclpinle arid the elliciency,of the ser- been made against her, yet on reading the reports
a" te cm- and Gallant Officer then read several ssfrom the officers of her, ,he found . her per-
-Btatenie . •
,;) lilt appo: nth relating to promotions in the ser7. forniance highly „kenspoof. She was stated to have beaten
it theit,3tiu'qi Lutnients in the dock-yards, but so rapidly oveily war steamer she had met.. With respect. to , the
t area aprAthatit wasimpossible tocolleethis.figuree. Albion, he -read a letter from Commodore Bowles to
44iteattlre
ti--iatioa..
a, . l From the returns moved for in 1843, Captain Synionds,,expressive of admiration at her con-
coder commanders were promoted to the struetion, and stating her to be the finest three-decker
thule -' 4141-"m° ; 535 lieueenants.were made • coin, in the world ;• he alio read another letter - from Mr.
Pyre Ilk'', hear,) ,945 raidshipmen were made lieutenants. la' Tortheote, the master, who stated that he rejoiced at
itito-4, been' This was referred to as a prOof that the opportunity of refuting the'diaboliCal assertions with
f
'11,1)44e14 coma' great promotion, but' what were the respect to their noble ship.—(Laughter.) The report o
st, Thane„ s, Ilea ,I,llanders, 259 lieutenants, and 928 mid . the particulars of her depth of Water when loaded, &c.
141)Na:7 then died since the late promotion.—(Hear.) contradicted. those of the Hon. and Gallant, Officer. He
Is 411. ting „I.,‘"t, was enough to show that the- rinciple , ,did not quite see.what the objections of the Hon. and
solt s, ale leit; etnd one-third had .not been carried out • Gallant Member to the p'resent system were ; he did not
t:lar system of of opinion that unless they came see what,advantage his plan would have over the present
It„t1,41„ ircipo-7°l of a retiring list for the navy, it. system. The Gallant Officer said, that the Board was
ti' 44160 Be stshiobule to look for proper economy in ro- changfd. at every change of Ministry, and those who
..
lkiLfileie risible fs ght that the present Government came in were obliged to - depend on the information of
th; 41t,,ne,_3', by ear not bringing the navy into a state-,the inferior officers. - The stone objection , applied to
tills.' kat -st‘° frogretire a small sum of money to in- every, department ; it ,applied -to the offices of the
ttiri a,,,,...1ie shot: the service. Having attained Secretaries of State. Hit was an evil, it was the neces-
th. te"ltest d saY that no man should be promoted scary result of their representative system, which
14 4 staseeintrurred, and then he should give one- ! created frequent • charges of parties ; but, it did
ties'll 14iraltyY1 and one-third to what was called not apply - to the Board • ••of Admiralty more.
astit'lly all r,
theappointments In the evidence ; than to any other department.. It was a mistake to sup-
sers 4414°,41110w Shipwreck Committee pose that the members of the Board. of Admiralty C0W-
'40.., tOcke°,ll3 as Just and expedient it was topromote to : tined themselves entirely to Whitehall; there was also a
ii:11 mop aqua • •ancling waiters in the Customs and i regular attendance of the officers at Somerset House.
,iih ee in
~ tong i
the Dock-yards—{A laugh)—' Before. any organic change.was made it was necessary'
that /Znt.heruZevecoast guard service, who had distiefs , to prove• an absolute necessity, for it ; it was necessary
4,,titles and G,4, bY - their exertions in saving life. i therefore, to prove the inefficiency of the present Board.
gl 'ee, to - 'ant Officer then read extracts from l The present duties were riot too much for the Board te
Al °fic show
Is t,tl 4 ers that finch was the opinion of the-is discharge efficiently_; he , would not say an addition 114.,qt 4 'q• ree4x,.__Rillined before the Committee. He ' might not be necessary in case of a war ; but at present
ti,lllo)re,gll4.ivitYt._, Th7rtalite • regulations respecting masters the Board was quite equal to the discharge of its duties.
'ill) 'e. eq in th eof remuneration to thOse officers He 'had no doubt that the alterations introduced by li, ala a sk,tusa, o most extraordinary manner inlay i the Right Hon. Baronet (then the Member for Cum-
r re e
e i.ved ~,i.
1..
par
_.,.
sLe''t.a.ai 3prohnlio saVry°,fwohthree-deekeberland) were required ;. they had stood the test of ten
684 foci„ otea , Ica
111,' kira,,t;roT a as
. in. .
was never increased unless years, and had been found to work well, and he did not
D kd 'think the alterations proposed by the Hon. and .Gallant
thes oe -•ar : , . . , ,
t'ilt tlistu.a, 'early
Basmall brig, or any other small} craft, I, Officer were then required: •
14 ne'e be!" oft j 'arY of 219 E, thus receiving 71. i .Captain PECHELL ,said, the argument that no or-
isati salalipg no
warrant oe larger vessels on the ground 1 garlic change ought to be -made till the old system was
t 1 rit,:,_ 1 title, officer to attend to the stores proved- not to have ,
ve worked well, was used by the Right
'l,,,q'qh:eal_alt,e'th' while it
the
to be left out Honourable Beronet. • opposite, Weep the Gallant
.1 2erso attend 'r, that the master of the first-rate I Officer next him, when the ing measure
,s'''rl ,- , btu . ' notcerta-
4, ,
.. ~,,,, , themly to what was known as of Ref,,rm was proposed, which they both .resisted.
ItsAcl. ' Prto,,e. • 3"lro,,••, rignit., pi-, . r.. ii
btOty-trir'‘'4 'in 1,:., 01,,,,,,, -b? -'8"-'i ' -.'
• . ' '''""'
f 'Admiralty,
. ... „ t but of the course
~(s. "•• i,' rt're (4..'1,, t +Nicer, not only compituned of the coh-
RI 1)(t '. he zi, '"''t .i' 0 ,-, ''''e' and this, tou, wl,in it oruction of one
.Hoard 9
°l' 'er tb ust be 0:"`- if ,t-, ,rof a tliree-de,',.,-i• di:, purstted-tiy,Them. He niways teo,,ect on these platters
eit,,._,,..ere ,ss
a, benerali 45 -In "" 1 the all night on de::k, without 'any' reference to party. The Board of Ordnance
.... filet, P-e or all
in it worked far
wise
neve was near was arranged in a different manner, and
r and wherever (and such better than the Admiralty Board. There was no re-
;

gponsibility- in that. Board. On one occasion, 'Captain
Berkeley proposed- an improvement with regard to the
complements of ships ; and; though he considered he
had a majority of- the Board with him, he afterwards
found that his proposal was upset in the private room.
I He. in consequenee left the Board: He gave the
Right Hon.' Gentleinan opposite, the Secretary: of
State for the'Horne Department,.full credit 'for the im-
provements which he Made when at the' head of the
Admiralty Board ; but be 'could not give the present
Board' much credit: for the mode 'in which they con-:
ducted the navigation of the country. 'lt was a disgrace
to the country, that while France and America had the
Archimedian screw in full operation, the navy of this
country had not a single vessel to which. this great im-
provement was applied. He recollected, that in March
last, he Coniplained of the' manner in which the Board
of Admiralty had acted towards Mr. Smith, who inven-'
ted that invaluable improvement. He - was then told
that the Rattler was being completed, -and that'
this improveinent would be applied to her ; but at this
-very moment, though twelve months had elapsed', there
was no Rattler in commission. He was aware she was
cruising up and down the river for the purpose of mak-
ing experiments, but it was not Mr. Smith'e,screw which
was applied. Other machinery had been applied, butit
-was always found that the speed- of the vessel had
diminished. The lion. and Gallant Gentleman then
referred to the contemplated employment of the Pene-
lope and Prometheus vessels tin the coast of Africa, for
the suppressionof the slave trade, and- said that they
would be of far more service at home. He complained
of the navy • being employed to collect the poor-
rates in Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear.") He recollected
that complaints were made with regard to the employ-
ment of naval officers on the coast guard service. It
was not now looked upon as an invidious service ; but
he certainly was of opinion that it was a disgrace to the
navy to be employed in collecting poor-rates on the
coast of Ireland, and to bring an 84-pounder to bear on
some farm-house in Connaught. It was something
equal to what had been' done at Tahiti. He complained
of the ignorance in which they were left with regard to
the experiment made upon the Fox frigate. From the
bow of that vessel 15 feet had been cut off, and 20 feet
of new, material had been added... She had been
sent to the Shannon ; and- though- the whole
naval world were most curious to know the result,
they, were left in entire ignorance en the subject.
With reference to the subject of shipwrecks, it appeared
from the. Report of the Shipwrecks' Committee, that
officers frequently risked. their lives without receiving
any pension as a reward; and even where officers lost
their lives no pension was bestowed. ' He thought that
some alteration ought to be made. Great complaints
had been made,on the other side of the appointments of
Lord Minto as being of apolitical character. He thought
there was no .foundation for that charge. Admiral
Stopford would' not have *been appointed to the Medi-
terranean if the First Lord of the Admiralty had been
actuated by political considerations. He would reserve
any further remarks which he might be desirous of
making until after the Secretary for the Admiralty
had made his statement. •
BO WRING regretted that some uniform mode
of preparing -these 'estimates was not adopted by the
Admiralty. The great error was, that the department
'of expenditure was always made the department of
receipt. In the' estimates Of this year, there was
171,479/. received by. the naval department, and de-
ducted from the expenditure. He thought it was ex-
tremely important that the gross revenues should come
int* the hands of the Government, and that a different
mode of preparing the accounts should: be adopted.
The accounts could never be satisfactory till the princi-
ple was established that whatever was realised from and
for the'public service should be paid into the Exchequer,
and that no department should realise for itself. All
ought to' be 'paid into the Queen's Exchequer. He
hoped that, little by little, they should 'reach the- ultima
Thule of his desires in these matters ; but, until they
did so, he should not cease to protest against the esti-
mates in-the form and extent whichthey now assumed.
Captain PLUMRIDGE had only. one suggestion at
that moment to offer to the House. Considering the
high and responsible duties attached to the master of a
vessel' in her .Majesty's service, he thought it but fair
that that meritorious class of officers should be entitled
to gain the rank of captain.—(Hear, hear.)*
into •
The House then went Committee on the. Navy
Estimates.
Mr. S. HERBERT (whO spoke so' hurriedly and
so indistinctly,. that it was with the greatest difficulty
a whole sentence could be heard in the gallery). was
understood to say, that after the miscellaneous conver-
sation, which always took place before the question was
entered into, a good deal of matter.was cleared away,
and, he would show his—anxiety to save trouble to the
House by postpOniog any vote on which there might be
any strong differexce ofopinion. Upon the Admiralty vote,
theie were two alterations which were not very material.
There was en item for the manufacture of an instrument
to;Hake lunar observations. Ile was not very well ac-
quainted with scientific pursuits, but this instrument had
received the approbation of Sir W. Herschel! and other
eminent astronomers. With respect to the ordnance survey
seventeen surveys were in progress. It was the inten-
tion of the Government to re-establish Deptford as a
building yard. He mentioned last year that a large
steamer had been building there. It was. now completed,
and 'two or three others were in progress of completion.
There was an increase 'of two hundred shipwrights in
thisjard, and of an inspector, necessary for supervision.
At W.oolwick dockyard there was
anincrease of two in-.
speetors and fifty shipwrights, There had been also an
additional item of expenditure for this dock,yard, viz.,
lighting with gas instead of oil. A school for naval ap-
prentices had likewise been established, and he could
speak from personal knowledge of its efficiency. There
was likewise .an item for the manufacture of, steam-
engines, and salaries to additional . inspectors
for superintending
,their • Manufacture. At Ply-
mouith there was no alteration of any. importance.
At Chatham 'an extra expense had been incurred in con-
sequence of the construction of works. He should next
(as well as we could understand the Hon. Gentleman)
refer to the item which showed .•the,expetuies incurred
by the copper-sheathing of the several vessels of war in
the dockyards, and in the year 1834 the number of tons
of copper applied to that-purpose was 463, while in the
year 1840 it had increased to 1,239 tons. Inconsequence
of au alteration made by the Right Hon., Baronet the
Secretary of State- for the Home Department in the
disposal of convicts, a considerable difference would be
made in the amount of the regular paid labour which
would be required for the operations to be carried on
iu the several dockyards; but he (Mr. S. Herbert) had
no doubt 'but any extra expense thus incurred would be
More. than compensated for by `the superior manner
in which. the work would be done. He had now pne
,through all the separate items, with the exception of the ,
smaller and more insignificant, and all
,that remained .1
for him to say now was, that a large sem had been ex-
pended in 'the improvement of the.docks 5 and besides,
they were gradually getting rid of the' more. expensive
portion of the machinery in those different stations.
Although it was not possible, at the present moment, to
make any diminution
,in the numerical strength of the
navy, yet the House - might depeed upon it that the
strictest regard had been paid to economy, consistent
with the interestS_of the empire. tThe number re-
quired in the ,present estimates would be 30,000 men,
with 10,500 marines, and 2,000 boys.

Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know what were the cir-
cumstances of the country, which could justify the vote
of a sum for, the naval service this year which exceedad
that of the year 1830 by nearly two millions of money.
He felt strongly buund to object to the vote for any
item for the support of the marines who were required
to do duty on shore, for he considered theni as part
and parcel of a standing army, and bound to act in
common with the_ soldiers. What he wanted to know

from the Hon.,Gentleman opposite, the Secretary of the
Admiralty, was, what were the necessities of the country
now above those of 1837, which required an increase of
25,010 men?

Sir G. COCKBURN said the Government were
anxious to have a certain number of marines in the case
.of our going to war suddenly. Marines were useful,
too,;oh slidre - in dock-yards, &c.; and in the event of a•
war suddenly occurring,' when it would be necessary at
once to man ships, fully, they would suit the service
much, better than soldiers, who would become sea-sick.
Besides, it was necessary that we shOuld tOmpete with
other nations, which:were extending their marine ; 'and
as two-thirds• of our •dearnen were generally Oh foreign
service, unless we could get the entire command of the
Channel at the-commencement of a war, those seamen
would go into French prisons instead of into our ships.
To prevent-such a misfortune; an increase in the -marine
force would be requisite. . •
Sir C. NAPIER hoped his Hon. Friend -Would not
press his amendment, as in his Opinion they' should
- rather increase than decrease the number of marines:
He left to the GOvermment ,the responsibility of saying
what number of men were required, but he trusted that
the three .guard ships would be efficiently manned, and
not made tbe•depOts for decrepid old men. Ships lad
been kept seven, eight,' or nine months in- pert before
they were fully manned ;. whereas, if the guard-ships
were properly manned, our ships would be able to be
sent to sea without any such delay. He complained of
the provision for supplying the guns from the magazines
with pOwder, if the guns were fully worked : he had
tried experiments in the Powerful, and be found that'
one-third of the men were lying doivia waiting a slipply.
He had her 'altered accordingly, to givegreater facilities.
When the magazines, however, were attempted to be
made bomb-proof, they could only fire nine rounds on
both sides in ten minutes ; and if a better supply could
not be furnished, the ship would be in great danger of
being taken, as- the • French would fire much quicker.
He complained that the Penelope and Albien had their
ports too low. He advised the Uovernment also to exer-
cise their officers, from the admirals down to .the lieu-
' tenants, for our men had no practice : when first sent to
sea they did not know what a ship ahead or a ship
astern was : and if we suddenly 'went to war, our ships
would be disabled more from.our other ships than from
the enemy; • • .
Admiral DUNDAS was under no such apprehensions
as the Gallant Admiral, of a navy sweeping our navy
from the Channsl—(Hear)—for he knew that we had
mercantile steanaers, 200 of which were • furnished
with 32-pounders, and. with these he defied all the
navies in the world to take possession of the Channel.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN explained that he had
entertained no such apprehension, but he had advocated
keeping up marines in case of an emergency. With re-
spect to the alterations in the Powerful,' made by the
Gallant Commodore, they had been looked at by 'Sir
Edward Coclrington, and were reported of unfavourably.
The Gallant Adniiral stated also that the experiment Of I.
the Penelope , had completely succeeded : she beat the
steamers against Which she sailed, arid shipped now :Iter.
:th
V.Vith respect to die.. AlOion, e did not caiTy her ports
as high a could be ,:ut for her thepresent.Go-
yerntoent were not responsible.: in calm weather she.
would sail as well as the Rodney, but the latter had the
advantage of. higher ports. Admiral Bowles wrote in
the highest terms of her. •

rTIE SUN, LON,DON TITESDAY_EVENING, FEBRUARY 27. 1844.

. .
i Dr.
.BOWRING ' said' the objection, of the Hon:
Member fOr Coventry bad not -been noticed, namely,
' that an increase in the marine force was, in fact, an in-
crease in the standing army, .
Captain PECMELL hoped that an explanation would
be given to induce his Hon. Friend to withdraw his mo-
tion. But if a 'satisfactory 'explanation was not given,
he would move an amendment. Ho hoped, -however, it
would not be necessary to press the motion. Before he
satdown he wished to ask if it were tette' that the crews
of her Majesty's ships had:been 'erriployed in levying
poor-rates in, Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) He •thought
. i
that 'a great mprovement . might be effected by
employing steam-vessels instead of frigates to
carry out Governors to such places as Gibraltar.- He
was sure'' that' Birch' -employment of frigates gave
very great dissatisfaetion to the officers, and. served
to change , her -Majesty's ships' into`-floating' ta-
verns, and caused the dismissal of the -Commander of
the Warspite.—(Hear, hear.) The whole system of ap-•
pointment to places in the dockyards was one of Parlia-
mentary patronage, and the only questions asked of a
candidate were—Whit reCOMmeeded 'you ? and, Whom
did you.vote for at the last election ?—(Hear, and a
laugh.) He hoped the whole system would be changed,
and that the Admiral Superintendent should havelhe
power Of appointing-tit persons, and selecting them 'froth
the naval service.—(Hear.) He also trusted the Hon.
and Gallant Officer (Sir George Cockburn) would induce
the Admiralty to take into their Consideration - the
situation of the masters in- the navy. •
Mr. wit-4'4l4ms (as we understood) .expressed him-
self satisfied with the explanation which the Hon. and
Gallant Member had given.. -
Captain PECHELL wished to have his question
answered by the Hon. and- Gallant Admiral. ' ' '
Sir G. -COCKBURN said that be did not know • that
vessels had been employed for the perpose spoken of by
the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman. 'Whenever any -ex-
citement existed in Ireland, the vessels on that -coast
were .ordered ; but the officers all bore testimony to the
civility of the people, who went on board the ships to
see 'them, and .conducted themselves with the greatest
propriety—(Hear.) As to the other question, he had
only to say that the widows of officers who lost their
lives in the coast-guard service-got increased pensions,
the tame as in any other branch of the service.
The vote was put and agreed to. ' •
' The next vote mit was, "that 1,170,4761. be granted
to her -Majesty to defray the wages of seamen and
marines for the year ensuing." ' • - -
After -another observation from Dr. BOWRING on
the involved state -of the " explanation," :
This vote was agreed to, and, -
-- On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, .
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again. .
HORSE-RACING PENALTIES BILL. .
Mr. WORTLEY moved' the second reading of this
Bill, and proposed certain verbal amendments on it.
Mr. C. BERKELEY would not oppoSe the motion if
the'addition he had to propose were acceded to. •
Mr. WORTLEY was not prepared' to accede Wile
addition. .
Mr. BROTHERTON moved an adjo'nrnment . but
from a few words that passed,- believing the subject
would soon be brought to a termination, the Hon.
Gentleman declined to persist in the motion.
After a short pause, and cries of " Adjourn," and
" Go' on,"- , • - - .
Mr. HAWES said he wished the House would either
adjourn or go On. • . '
Mr. C. BERKELEY said, as it-seemed the wish of
the' House that he should go on,he would shortly state
the '--nature of his clause. The object he had
in view, was to'extend the operation 'of the
preeent Bill' to the second clause of the 4th and 6th of
%Mani IV., and to the 47th of the 2d and 34 of. Vic-
toria ; so that no information. should be laid under
those dailies until within three months after the passing
of the present Bill. ' They should then hale the Report.
of the Committee sitting up stairs on gaiiiing, and they
would be able to determine.whether certain sports- and
games to which those dailies related continued to exist
or not. 'There was nothing so objectionable as legis-
latibn, which -it was • impossible to enforce; 'and they
could not enforce the clauses of this. Act of Parliament.
'lf tiley did attempt to enforce them, they would not be
doing justiee by thus legislating for one class only, .arid
theiefore 'he would move the insertion of the following
chlse:—" And whereas, by the third clause of an Act
pas ed in the sth and 6th Year of the reign of, his late Ma-
jesty William the Fourth, intituled, ' An. Act to consoli-
date 'and amend the several laws relating to the cruel
and impreper treatment 'of animals, and the mischiefs
arising from the driving of cattle, and to make other
proisions 'in regard thereto,' and arso by the 47th
clause of a certain other Act, passed in the second and
third years of thereign of. her Majesty Queen Victoria,
intituled, ' An Act for further improving the police in
and near the metropolis,' certain penalties are recover-
able by summary process against parties engaging in
certain popular sports and games therein mentioned :
be it enacted, that 'it shall not be lawful far the space of
three calendar months from the passing of this Act, to
lay jany information for the recovery of penalties under
the !said recited clause's of the said Acts." • •
Dr. BOWItING seconded the-motion. They had by
ther legialation encouraged' informers, -by trusting to
the& the enforcing of certain laws, and now, 'because
those men .turned round. upon the rich and powerful
these was this outcry raised, against them. He disap-
proed of the-Measure
,itself, and' of the dense that was
proposed to be added ; but, from.a wish to do equal jus-
ticelto the Inimbler classes of tociety; 'he felt bound to
sup Port it.
The clause was then broughtup and rdad a first time.
On the motion' that it be read a second time,
Mr. WORTLEY said he thought that the Honourable
MeMber had not inforneed the House, nor the Hon:
Member next him (Dr. Bowring), to what sports the
clatises of the Acts he alluded to referred. He would
find that they were directed, not • against the sports of
the i poor only, :but to sports which had received the
highest aristocratical protection—such as cock-fighting,
andother sports of the like description, which -he need
not name. His objection to the clauie was, that it had
nothing to do with the Bill. 'The Bill merely suSpended,
for a limited time, certain actions brought to re-
cover -penalties of so large an amount—an amount
totally disproportionate • to any offence the parties
penalt
tmhieglillltonli.aGyeenmtlemminiant'ts edNo
rwhich
clause
'of al cruel and,inhumancharacter. He might propose
levf,e `the
d were
againsties to
sportsan !alteration in the general law, but this Bill had
nothing to do with that. If those gentlemen had. not
been of aristocratical .
ranks and connections they_thoukl
not have had so much opposition to the Bill. Captain rECHELL denied that. there was :any Rna":
logyrao4per o
present' Bill and. the otion„he .had
m
actions brought, against newspaper
p to recover penalties incurred, by the
ifeot betweenrsin suspendingl tBh3e s,re
violation Of one of the regulations of the Stamp-office.
Mr. 0: BERKELEY would not trouble the House,'"
-he shaeffrom theinumber ofgentlemen opposite who were
adverse to his motion, that it would be perfectly usele:4*
• fter a few-words from- Afr:-PMTHR BORTHWICK the
Rejort of the Bill was _brought up and agreed. to, and
the pill was Ordered-to be read a third time to-morrow
obi? day)., •, - , . . -
' ,he Souse -then adjourned at'a Quarter to One o'clock.

brought in ; and thek (including
.11,599 Z due from Com-
missariat, anciExchquer credit. balance 5371. 135.)
amount, for'si'Ver and copper 'bullion, coined and un•
coined, collectively, to 149,833/ Its. I Id. Cash balance
to creditnr of Master of the. Mint on. the Bank. of Eng-.
1and,,40,067/ 13s. 2d., exhibiting.a corresponding
aggregate of 480,505/. 17s. 7d.

LOAN.—The Parliainentary Paper (No. 39,
Session 1844), presented on the 16th inst., and since printed
and delivered, out, :entitled,,.; "An Account of Money
paid out, of the Consolidated Fund, under Acts 2 and 3
Will. 1V.,. c. 121, and 6 and 7 Will. IV., c. 94, in the.
year ended Dec: 31, 1-843;" shows-gut+ payment, for
terest and Sinking Fund (on that portion of the-Greek
Loan which had been guaranteed by this country); for
six months,' due on the Ist of March, 1843, to be
23,3232 as.; sum , to be applied to making good the de-
ficiency of the inttiest and Sinking Fund tin that por-
tion so guaranteed; for six months, due, on . the Ist of
September, 1843,. 10,2601. 12s. Id. ; together, 33,5834.
178. ld.

COURT CIRCULAR.

W.txDsort, Illo*DA.i.:—Their Royal highnesses the Pr:n-
cess Alice' and the. Princets fy. hl, wee taken an airing

The Queen and*Prinee Albert promenaded in the afternoon.
Archdoacop )15,berforce took , his departure from theeaBtle
in the forenoon.,.

. . ..
. .
Mr. H. Loiy-c.oCk has had the honour of submitting to the
naspectiOn of her -Majesty and his Royal - Iliglin6ssTrince
Albert, the inoilel of a plough On a new. principle. This
plough is an inganiOnscontrivance to avoid turning, and has;
A coulter both ways.

His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge' returned to
his residence at Kew on 'Sunday tete-neon.

Mr. Rawson, from Canada, had au interview. with Lord,
Stanley,. yesterday at the Polonial-office...
Cotuft de. St. Aulaire, the French Ambassador, transacted
business yesterddy at the Foreign-office,
The Duke of Richmond, the Duke of BuCctench, the Hon.,
Francis Scott; M.P.: `'Major Cumming Bruce; M.P., Mr.'
Loch, M.P., "Mr.-Lockhart, M.P., Mr. F. Mackenzie, .81.114
Mr. Smollett, M.P., and. Mr. Wallace, M.P., meAbers of 'the
Highland and Agricultural Society of Scotland, accompanied
by Sir Charles Gordon, the Secretary of the Society, had an
nterview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday,
at his official residence in Downing-street. • -
Sir John Henry iPelly•had an .interview with Sir Robert
Peel yesterday.
Mr. J. Barnett and,Sir John Shelly had interviews with
Lord Stanley yesterday.-
The Postmaster-Ceneral had an interview with the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer yesterday. •
Dispatches from the Governor of New Zealand were re-
ceived yesterday at the Colonial-office. Dispatches were
also received from the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope,
and from the Governor of the Mauritius.