The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-27 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLIC BILL.

Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if the Bill went
,through the Committee, he felt himself bound to
state thus early, that he would in that case move
that the two Bills should be consolidated.

• The• CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
unless the Right Honourable Baronet moved in-
structions to that effect in the first instance, he
could not afterwards move to consolidate the
Bills without having them recommitted.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that it had been re-
ported for him that he had received communica-

tons from Ireland, disapproving of the Bill.—
He had . never said so ; but it now became his
painful duty4o *state to the House, that since the
last debate he had received a communication-from
high authority, nathely, from the Titular Bishop
of Cork, a Clerg3;than of great learning and of
exemplary character. That Gentleman,- be was.
•bound to say, disapproved in strong terms of the
second Bill. He knew not whether the Reverend
Gentleman was in • possession of the amended-
Bill ; he believed not. There-was to be a meet-
ing.of the Catholic Prelates Ireland this day.
He -Thoteld not bind himself to support the conso-;
lidation of the Bills, bet he hoped the last Bill
migldbe so altered as to be made acceptable to
the Catholics.
The House went into a Committee; Mr.
Robert Smith took the Chair. After a few words
from Mr. PEEL and Sir J. NEWPORT, as to the
phraseology of 'the first clause, that clanse was
read.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE rose to object to the clause
and observed, that hitherto it had not been
viewed in a-religious .shape, but he could not
conceive that it could pass a British Legislature
without taking that shape. If the Bill passed,
the. Constitution would be greatly endangered,
as they were bound to follow it up by repealing
the Test and Corporation Acts. If this fatal
measure passed,rand they had gone too near it to
be comfortable—(A laugh)—it was difficult to
foresee the consequences. He had been called
upon by an Honourable Member (Slr. J. Smith)
to say what danger had arisen freni the admis-
sion-of Catholics to offices in other Protestant
countries. It was sufficient for him (Sir T. L.)
to know what we in this 'country had formerly
suffered from the ascendancy of Catholics. It
was ,said that this measure was a measure of con-
ciliation, to. put all differences at rest ; but it had
not passed two stages before a paper was put
into his hand, signed by Dr. Milner, Walter
Blount, and Ralph. Benson—(a laugh !)—This
paper protested against the Bill. Now he-knew
nothing of Dr. Milner but that he was a zealous
Catholic. The Noble Member for Aylesbury
'Lord Nugent) had the other day recommended

him to keep company with the Rev. Doctor, bu
as a zealous Catholic, and an honest one, the Rev.
Doctor might, he shOuld have thought, have found
a better pliee in a part of his Lordship's family
—(Hear!).—lt was not long ago that Dr. Mil-
ner was thanked by the whole of the other Vi-
cars Apostolic, and was patted on the back as a
peculiarly good Catholic. The opinion of the
Doctor was confirmed, by the determined opposi-
tion of a Titular Bishop in Ireland, which had
been brought forward by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Cork. These were the persons whom the.
Catholics were bound to obey, if they continued
what they were. Ile contended, that Catholi-
cism was' now as intolerant as it always had been,
as was proved by the article in the fashionable
and popular Spanish Constitution; It was false
liberality to grant what the Catholics would not
take., There might be a few, indeed, who wish-
ed to get into Parliament, or to be made King's
Counsel, but the great mass of his Majesty's
Catholic subjects did not want silk gowns—(a
laugh!)

l'Ir• IR• MARTIN contended that the religion of
Roman Catholics of the present day was by no
means of that intolerant character which the

on. Baronet seemed disposed to attribute to it.
e had himself seen marriages in Ireland between

oman Catholics and Protestants ; he had see

the Roman Catholic wife bringing up her child
in the religion of her Protestant husband, as she
had been directed by him to do ; and yet these
marriages were productive of the greatest happi-
ness and concord. For what the lion. Baronet
had said as to this. Bill's not pleasing the hierarchy
and prelacy of Ireland, Dr. Milner was the au-
thority cited by him in support of this supposi-
tion ; but, in point of fact, it was rather an argu-
ment against the Hon. Baronet himself. The
argument which Dr. Milner and his friends were
so fond of putting in the front of their battle was
that this Bill would destroy the. Catholic religion ;
whereas the fears of the lion. Baronet went; all
of them, to its too great encouragement and pro-
tection. He should certainly vote against the
Right /ion. Baronet.

Sir G. HILL contended, that the clause would
ead to a considerable historical error. If it was

wise to get rid of the oaths .and declarations
which the Bill repealed, it should be done with
a regard to historical truth. The words of the
clause conveyed the idea that the oaths were im-
posed to set up peculiar views of religion. They
were not imposed for that purpose, hut to exclude
Catholics from Parliament. He should move to
lea+ out the words " and declared" after the
word " enacted."

The Amendment, as well as a few other ver-
bal Amendments, and the Clause, was agreed to,
Sir T.' Lethbridge decl!ning to divide on it.—
some verbal Amendments, of no importance, were
made in therecond clause.

Mr. WETHERELL suggested, that the words,
declaring " that nothing in this Act shall be held
to dispense with the oaths of abjuration and alle-
giance," were superfluous.

Sir. J. MACKINTOSH observed, they were in-
serted out of greater caution. The clause was

agreed to.

Upon the reading of the third clause, that no-
thing in this Act should extend to repeal any of
the laws in force respecting the Protestant suc-
cession to the Throne, the uniformity of public
prayers, or the administration of the Sacraments

in the United Episcopal Church of England and
Ireland,
Mr. BAKES rose to make his promised mo-
tion, for the insertion of a clause in addition to
the above, providing that nothing in this Act
should extend to dispense with or repeal any of
the laws now in force, excluding Catholics from
sitting or voting in both Houses of Parliament.

There were, he was aware, two parties to whom
he had to address himself upon this subject;
one who thought that the measure proposed for
the satisfaction of the Catholic claims, should
be unaccompanied by any qualifications or re-
strictions; ;aid another, which formed, he hoped,
the larger party in that House, who combined
with a wish to make every due concession to the
Catholics, a desire to obtain adequate securities

for the maintenance or the Protestant Establish-
ment. Upon -the former- of -these parties, he
could not flatter himself with tieing able to make
any irnpression,ond therefexe, he had only to re-
quest their indulgence. But he begged the par-
ticular attention -of the Matter While he stated
the grouiels.of his motion, because he to 'that- if
the Bill 'under the consideration of the Commit-
tee were passed into a law, without the provi-
sion 'which he had to submit, all the other re-
strictions or securities. which" might be provided
Would prove utterly nugatory.; for if such a ,de-
gree of political power were put into the hands
of the Catholics as this. Bill proposed, it would
be quite absurd to suppose that they would
'not 'act upon the maxims and principles which
had :always characterised the professors of
that reliion, or that they would not use
this power for the purpose- especially of re-
pealing any restrictions disagreeable to their
Clergy. He lamented most sensibly the absence
of the Right -Hon, Gentleman who had brought
forward this measure, and particularly from a
consideration of the cause ; but he was glad to
find that the Right Honourable Baronet who un-
dertook the patronage of these two Bills was
dis Posed, as he stated, for the _first time this
night, to propose, that the Bill of Securities should
be engrafted upon that for Concession. This
he (Mr. B.) thought oeght to have been the case
from the beginning., in order to guard against the
danger of having the Concessions passed without
those Securities, against which it appeared that
some of the Catholic Clergy and others, who had
.a lead among the Catholic body, were now
raising a pretty loud outcry. He was aware that
the. Right Honourable Author of the Bill had
stated at the outset, that hesew no objection to
the incorporation at present proposed, but yet he
could not undertake to say, whether the proposi-
tion of thelit. lion. Baronet, for the first time
this night, resulted from choice or necessity: His
Rt. Hon. Friend on the other side (Mr. Canning)
and Others had expressed an opinion that Par-
liamerfi'should pass a measure of this nature with-
out anyregard or reference to the judgment of
the:Catholics, with whom it was not for that or
the other House to enter into any treaty or nego-
ciation, but to accede to a measure of necessary
public - justice and great expediency. There
inight.be in such language a vast deal of dignity;
but he. must with deferenCe say, that it did not
appear to him to contain 'much of common sense.
It would be recollected that the Catholics, who
composed a large proportion of our fellow-sub-
jects, were partly, at least, under somewhat of
foreign- influence, and that it was rather incon-
sistent to maintain that their judgment or wishes
"should not be regarded as to the merits of this
measure ; -while it was on the other hand alleged
that that Measure was mainly desirable as a
means of conciliation, and as calculated to satisfy
all parties. Yetit was evideut that many of the
Catholics whom it was hoped to conciliate, were
now forward to repudiate, condemn, and reject
the provisions of the Bill before the Committee
for providing some securities for the Protestant
Establishment. This was the known disposition
of the Catholic Clergy,who had notoriously more
influence over the laity than those of any other
Church ever known in the world.. Upon the
opinion of the Catholic Clergy, then, it must de-
pend whether a measure of this nature would be
received as a boon, or regarded as an act of per-
secution, and, that opinion was pretty well under-
stood. Unless, indeed, the Catholic Clergy of
Ireland should depart from all the principles
which. -they solemnly' deClared but a few years
ago, it was impossible to doubt of their hostility
to all the provisions of the second Bill ; for those
Clergy declared- the most determined 'objec-
tion to give the King any power of original
nomination _or direct negative' upon the ap-
pOintment of Catholic Bishops, or other mem-
bers' of the Catholic hierarchy.' If, then, the
Irish Clergy should not- be shewn to, have
changed their sentiments, the House should
consider whether, in, tic-ceding to the measures
under discussiOn, it might not, instead of promot-
ing peace 'and harmony in Ireland, contribute
rather to. produce agitation, dissent, and even
tumult in that Country. It would be remem-
bered that-the Bill of 1813 was abandoned, be-
cause the .clause 'was negatived for admitting
Catholics into Parliament ; but that abandon-
ment proceeded from thit authors of the Bill itself
and rested upon grounds which he could not at
all comprehend, especially as the Bill without
that clause contained many solid and valuable
concessions to the Catholic body=—for all those
concessions, he was, as he told his
.Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Canning) at the time, a very
ready advocate; but beyond these concessions
he was not prepared to go one step. He, would

ever agree to have. Catholics admitted to either

House of Parliament, because he thought their
exclusion most essential to the security of the
Protestant establishment, which was essential to
the stability of the Crown, and particularly to
the maintenance of the Protestant Church of Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear, hear !)-He was aware that
he, and others who acted With him, were charged
with intolerance and illiberality ; but, feeling the
charge.to be utterly inapplicable, he should never
allow himself to be withdrawn from his endea-
vours to guard the Constitution and Church of
the Country from danger, by the use of any emp-
ty epithets.—(Cheers.)—He would always act
upon the measure of a great Statesman long since
no more, that those men should not be admitted
to partake of the powers of any system,
whose principles must prompt them to desire
the overthrow of that system. The prin-
ciples of the Catholic body did not appear to
have undergone any change, although it was
pretended they were become much more enligh-
tened and liberal ; and if no such change had
taken place, it was quite absurd to suppose that
if the professors of this sect were put in posses-
sion of political power now, they would act
on different principles from those which had ac-
tuated their conduct when in power heretofoCe.
By this Bill it was proposed to invest the Ca-
tholics with power, which he could not contem-
plate without alarm. If it were passed, Catholic
Representatives were likely to he sent to that
Houie from a decided majority of Irish counties,
as well as from some English Boroughs. When

the tlective Franchise Was granted to the Ca-
tholics in 1793, that concession was understood
to be conclusive, and to close their demands.-a-
-' (No, no! from several voicks.)—lle maintained
that such-Was_the language of manyl:Catholic ad-
aocates at the titiPea that measure was; discussing
in, the Irish Parliament, under the reebanmenda-
tion of the British Ministers, who would not; he
was persuaded, have sent that recommendation
to Ireland, if. it were not for the alarm created
by the French RevolUtion, and the peculiar ur-
gency of the tithes. Yet it was now held that
the grant of a right to sit in that Douse was the
necessary consequence of the former concession,
and if Catholics were admitted into Parliament,
what should prevent theproposition that that re-
ligiOn, which was embraced by the great majority
of the Irish people, should be the established re-
ligion of that country ?---(lleartaas-It wasp indeed,
a principle laid down by a atureber of accredited
writers, among whom were some distinguished
Protestants, -that 'the religion of the great body
of the people in any State ought to be the
established religion of that State ; and it'the
Roman Catholiei were invested- with the
political power proposed by the present
Bill, what was to prevent them from pressing the
adoption of that principle ? But if Catholics
were admitted into Parliament, what guarantee
was theie for the continuance of- the Test and
Corporation Acts,. which- Blackstone called the
bulWarks of the Constitution ? -The eCatholies
would havea common interest with the- Dissenteee
in producing the repeal of those Acts; and- it.
would be recollected, that in the year-17.90,
when that repeal was last proposed, there was
only amajOrity of twenty against the entertain-
ment of that proposition.—Let, the• Committee
also consider ivhether, if Catholicsavere invested
with the-political. power which their advocates
now desired, it was possible that they vaoul4 be
reconciled to the payment of a double Ecclesias-
tical Establishment, 'or that they would not en-
deavour to get rid of that burthen, especially as
in such art endeavour they would be seconded
by the other Dissenters? lint the dangers likely
to result froM the' adoption of. such measures
were quite palpable and alarming as to Ire-
land. He should not, indeed, be much surprises"
if this Bill were passed in its present state,
soon to hear of propositions in that country
for the alternation of the dienitiea and emolu-
ments at present enjoyed by theEstablishedChurch
between the Ecclesiastics of that Church and those
of the Catholic Communion. With respect,to the
oath itself, as. it now stood, . a great deal bad
been said in the course of the debate on a former'
night, and it was not his intention to Occupy much
of the time of the House upon this part of .the
subject. It should be recollected, however, thax
oaths were frequently rendered nugatory, by the
mode of interpreting them ; and 'it might not be
impeoper to consider in what. way the oath pro-
posed by the Irish Parliament in 1703 was exr
plained. The words of that oath appeared too
clear to be misunderstood. They were these,
" F do solerrinly swear- not to, exercise any pri-
vilege to which. I am or may be admitted, to the
disturbance of the Protestant Religion and Go-
vernment of this country." Yet-the interpreta-
tion given to this oath was, that they 'VP,ere bound
not to exercise their privileges in any way which
might violate not only the established religiortr
but the Government of the country ; because it
was contended, that the words Religion and Go-
vernment were connected together, without any
comma after the sword religion. Was it known
to the Committee s that an order of Jesuits-
was canonically established at- Stoneyhurst,
Lancashire, and another_ at Castle. Brown, its'
Ireland ? That at- Stoneyhurst was establish-
ed
.by the
.POpe's authority in 1813, though
it . was not finally sanctioned till Augusts
1814. • When the House recollected the way in
which -the Jesuits had feemerly exercised 064-
influence, they. must see the danger which would
result- from the education of the youth of high
families, who-were afterwards to take their seats,
in that. house, in such- an establishment, 'SuCh
was the horror in which the Jesuits were held,
that they had been driven out of Russia', where
they were long tolerated,and in Spain, Piedniont
and Naples they were either, not tolerated, or
at least in-very great disrepute. The Honour-
able Member concluded by deprecating any con-
cession, which, by opening the door of Parliae
ment to Catholics, would .dispossess the House of

those' securities which were necessary for the
security and permanence of the established imti-

utions.

• Mr. CALCRAFT.—NeVer .1111171113 ventured on
any former occasion to trespass on the House hsr
stating his opinion on this subject, he hop.:(1 he-
,should now be indulged while he Matte a few ob-
servations. It was not because he did not feel,
most strongly .and anxiously, the great irn-
portance of the question ' under considera-
tion, that he had forborne from stating his
sentiments ; but he had always seen it in such
powerful hands as removed any wish'on his part to
deliver his opinion. It was not because the clues-,
don was now less ably advocated than it had
hitherto- been, that he presented himself to the
House;. bit because, if this• Bill passed, as. he
,thonglif it would, he should regret that the ques--
tion had. been decided, without his having re-.
corded his opinion.; and, on the other hand,
it were not carried, he feared that his Parlia,•
mentary life would have gone by before any per 7
son would be found bold enough to propose the
revival of the measure. The Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat doWn had taken a much larger
field of argument than he meant to do; because.
he meant to confine himself as strictly as pos-
sible to the question immediately before the.
Committee, viz. the question of admitting Ro-
man Catholic Peers to their seats in the House,
of Lords, and such persons of the Roman Ca-
tholic per Suasion as might be elected by the con-
stituency of this country to seats in the House of
Commons. He Must say that he for one could
not entertain those imaginary fears and ground-
less dangers to,which the lion. Gentleman was •

argument. The Hon. Gentleman, p
obliged to have recourse for the support.of his
of the question the present state of .society—not
putting c•qt
deigning to inquire whether any danger was to be
aPPCehended from the anomalous situation in

• Which the Roman Catholic Was 'placed—Ant
forward only to the extent of power
which it was intended to grant, and considering
the, degree of .perverseness • and incurable
bigotry of those Roman Catholics who might
find their way _into that
'House, Had proceeded
to delitrer a series of observatiOns, which he"
Was surprised that any• man, at the-present
period, could make up his mind to address to
such an assembly. He stated, in the first place,
that he meant to Address two sets of people in
that ifouse—ono party who considered restric-
tions of no value, and another who considered
there of, considerable importance. Now he was
one who looked to penal restrictions as of very
little importance; and if any one expected to
hold and bind that vast and powerful body by no
other means but those' enactments which they
Were called on to sanction, he should think, in
that case, that the state had a very slender hold
on them. But, when he knew that men were
governed by their interests, feelings, and passions,
When he saw that the Roman Catholics had a great
stake iu, the country, when he was aware that
many of them possessed extensive information, and
'were looked up to as men of high consideration--
!hen he came to this conclusion, that their interests
bound them to support the existing institutions of
the country as strongly and as decidedly as any
set o Persons in that House.. (Hear, hear.)-7-Ile
11fessed that he looked to these securities—se,.
ettrlties derived from interest and information—
. r inhnitely better than,any that could be derived
Erc" legislative enactments.—(Hear, bear.)--The
Catholics
Gentleman said, " If we admit the Roman,
into this House, we give them an Op-
Pvrtunity. of making themselves of such conside-
I-4tlna, that they will carry what measures they
Please., Having conceded to them scats in Par-
liament, they will immediately unite toeether and
°,vercorne the wholeProtestantpowerof tliecountry.l
Such an argument was in fact to suppose that
the Protestants were less attached to their faith,
they were less attached, to their
.Constitution,
that o
they looked with less fondness n that which
,;atl made them a great and powerful nation, than
'nose persons, who, it must be recollected, formed
a- very small minority in the whole scale of the
Population. The Hon. Member then proceeded
lo descant on what was done in the year 1793.
44 (Mr, Calcraft) hardly thought that it would.
Over hare-fallen to his lot to defend a measure
Sanctioned by-Mr. Pitt, against the attack of the
I". Gentleman. But if ever an unfair attack
Were made on the memory of a great man, it was
contained in the observations which the Hon.
{'Cattleman had made on that measure. He had
asserted that the privileges granted in 1793 were
Conceded, because there was a race of popularity
between two parties, each of whem was anxious to
(10 the most, in order to conciliate the Roman
Catholics, and thereby to assist themselves.—
' (Rear,-hear !)—Did the Honourable Gentleman
really think that Mr. Pitt, and Those who acted
With him at the time, were influenced by stich mo-
tives and reasons ?—(Hear, hear!)—Was it then
'merely a political expedient of,the day, resorted
t° for the purpose of procuring the support of that
•Fi."-erfal body ?—(Hear, hear !)—lie denied that
:Was any such thing. Mr. Pitt, and those.who
Fted With him, were influenced: by the change of
, Itireurnstances—by the growing power of the
4.!jaku--Cattioncs, by the good conduct they had
a "Played, and by the praise-worthy desire of at-
'aching to our general system that great aed im-
irrtant body, the Roman Catholic population of
%ireland•—(Hear; hear!)—But let the lion. Gen-
enian recollect that this was not the first con-
t a!'sion that was made. Although Parliament,
aat that time, granted the Elective Franchise to
ge Roman Catholics, it had, before that
period,
eought them by degrees within the pale
of the
tteinstitution.• They had .been -allowed to pur-
.tv".ase and to hold lands, and also to intermarry
1,
Protestants. Mr. Pitt was of opinion, and
.tie thought the opinion a correct one, that the
was come when Parliament might give to the
Catholic body the privilege-of the
-Elective Fran-
till set, Did the lion. Gentleman think that if
jus, ttoman Catholics exercised the right so given,
Y, fairly, anti with perfect propriety, Mr.
Mr.ttt
meant to stop at that concession ? Certainly,
'aarTeant no such thing; for seven years after-
taus, when the Union was proposed be-
at., err England and Ireland, one of. the main
salt,
tqrt en.s on which he founded that mea-
tsal Was the necessity of merging the Ito-
latiao Catholic population in the. whole popu-
tifaerti of the empire ; and when that was
then e(1, he was prepared to give them fur-
4(laitr.ights and privileges.--(If ear !)—For these
'iat;l"al rights and privileges, the friends of the
Catholics had been since contending;
l~eTelhle'se rights and privileges he hoped they
'-`\V-,",°‘v near gaining for that body.—(hear!)
!() the C, When the Elective Franchise was granted
frig -4tholics, could they be blamed for proceed-
ittli
e course they had done, and endeavouring
Pta..4.—;7eae every privilege that remained ?-
3o %)----Could they say to the human mind—
,lV las 4 Shalt thou go, and no farther ?—(Bear !)
'liti it not the necessary and natural result,
Ct34artPart was granted, to seek the rest?—
ill was glad the opponents of the
k ehe
ered him for this principle was the very
-sto„ ,„
't-Ipp tie on which he stood—it was the main
Ir Ile 'l4 of his whole argument.—(Hear, hear!)
I:l,,aintained that the Roman. Catholics had,
I,:eeei7ir excellent conduct since they had
tot ed this indulgence, qualified themselves
that tile high situation to which their friends in
'le4l, a °use wished to introduce them.—(Hear,tiliti---onsidering the march of the human
il)taPei it was impossible to grant a fragment of
)
clsuch as the elective franchise, to the
ei'an Catholics, and to withhold the remain-
taih They might as well tell a child that he
not, t walk, but that he should not run. It was
for Lin. nature, when men had qualified themselves
in nigher situations, to prevent
.them from ask-
and taking those situations. Those. situ-
,s they had a right to demand ; and that de-
4,itnjt ought to be acceded to, if it could be done
tr
,t 4 Safety to the whole comrnuni ty.—(ifear!)—
[lone could -contemplate the danger which the
le 1,1• Gentleman had conjured up to his own view,
. would be the last man to support this proposi-
it were likely to lead to the subversion of

the church establishMent in Ireland, Or if it, were
likely to lead to any of, those dangers which the
Hon. Gentleman had described, he would not ac-
euiescia in it. But let Gen tlerrien consider the por-
tion of representation which, even on the showing
of the RCHOn.Gent. opposite (Mr. Peel) Would, if
the Measure were carried, be introduced to that
House ; and then let them,exathine what danger
could be apprehended'from it. If prejudices re-
mained in the minds of the Roman Catholic laity,
if they were not sufficiently acqtiainted with the
business of the world, the very way to.eradicate
those prejudices, and to enlighten their minds,
would be to mix them up with the Protestant
eithblishment in that House: Every one who,
wished well to the Censtitution said, When a
radical or a demagogue broached his opinions—
" send him here ; here we can talk to him ;
here we can deal with him!" And the same
observation would apply to the Roman Ca-
tholics, if they entertained any improper views.
But if the Roman Catholics did, indeed, en-
tertain such views as were ascribed to them,
why did they not endeavour to effect them, al-
though they were not in-Parliament ? Every one
knew their preponderance in Ireland ; and every
one also knew their peaceable and loyal habits.
Were they then to suppose that these men, who,
tho Ugh oppressed, remained 'reasonable, loyal,
and peaceable, would' become unreasonable and
disloyal the moment they got into that House ?
(Hear !)—But it was said, " 0 ! they want to get
political power !" Get *power Why were 20 or
30 persons, educated, as the Hon. Gentlethan had
said, at Stoneyhurst, so formidable, that the safe-
ty of the Constitution would be endangered if
they were admitted to Parliament ? But the ef-
fect would be, that in order to qualify them for
seats in that House, they would not be educated
at Stoneyhurst. They would be obliged to seek
elsewhere for .that education which would enable
them to fill seats in Parliament,-and which would
be necessary, even for the carrying into execu-
tion those diabolical plans to which the Hen.
GentlernarP had adverted.--(Hear, hear !)—The
Roman Catholics were already admitted to the
command of fleets and armies. They- were
intrusted with power in' situations where
they could not. be controlled, but they were
refused admission to Parliament, where they
could be controlled by a great majority.—
Surely the lion. gentleman could not but be-
lieve what had. been stated by 'those Noble Per-
sons who had petitioned the HOuse. Surely he
could not believe but that they would take the
necessary oaths in their plain and obvious sense,
as they had solemnly declared they would. The
Hon. Gentleman had wandered very much from
the -question ; which. was, whether, after the
House had decided on an oath, with the express
object in view that if the Roman Catholics took
it they should be admitted into Parliament, they
should .now agree to a'clause nullifying what
they had previously done. The conscientious
scruples of those very persons with whom they
were dealing so harshly had alone kept them
from entering that House before. The existing
oath militated against their religious scruples,
and therefore they declined taking it. Formerly,
when thi; question was discussed, they were told
of the • power of the Pope, of the influence of
Buonaparte, and'of the Misconduct of the Roman
Catholics in Ireland. - They now heard nothing
of. this ; and it. appeared to him to 'be a mere.
qUestion of 'jealousy, whether the , Protes-
tants 'should admit a few Roman Catholics
to the rights and- privileges. which they en-
joyed. The great points to be considered were,
was any danger to be apprehended from things
remaining as they now were—could this change
be effected with safety to the Church. and State ?
Had the conduct of the Catholic 'population of
England and Ireland been such as to justify the
Legislature in considering their claims ? and,
finally, was the Protestant mind in this .country,
ripe for` conceding those claims? lie conceived
that the present was the happiest moment that
could be.selected for concluding this measure—
(hear, hear) ;—because there was, in the public
mind, a confidence 'in the wisdom of Parliament,
and the light of reason was now dawning on the
popular understanding, in consequence of the
repeated discussiOns on this measure in the two
Houses 'of Parliament. The Honourable Gen-
tleman then ridiculed the idea of a few Roman
Catholic Members producing such effects as the
Honourable Mernber for •Corfe Castle antici-
pated, and concluded by 'expressing his decided
hostility to the clause proposed by that Hon.
Member.
The SPEAKER said, he should confine himself
to a very few observations upon the question im-
mediately before the House. He agreed with all
the Hon. Members of that Reuse, who had argued
that exclusion was in itself to be regarded as a griev-
ance, and that it could only be justified by an ade-
quate necessity. . Now the Bill before the House
not only recognised exclusion from some offices,
unless certain • conditions were complied with,
but in some instances it recognised absolute and
unqualified exclusion. Thus the Catholics were
absolutely
.excluded _ from -exercising judicial
functions in the Ecclesiastical Courts. lie did
not refer to this part of the Bill with a view of
expressing any dis Sent from it ; on the. contrary
he felt. that the exclusion was a necessary, and
therefore a justifiable exclusion. But if he were
justified in feeling a jealousy as to the participa-
tion of the Roman Catholics in, the administra-
tion of the laws directly affecting ourEcclesiesti-
cal establishment, he knew not how he was to be
answered, if he declared that a jealousy might be
reasonably entertained of their participation in
the enactment of the laws themselves. This con-
sideration led immediately to that of the clause
by which they were admitted into the two
Houses of Parliament. When he looked to the
Preamble of this Bill, in which it was stated that the
laws relating to the Ecclesiastical -Establishment
were permanently established, it was a necessary
inference, that the Catholics were excluded from
judicial offices in ecclesiastical matters, lest. any
injury should arise from their maladministration.
But when those laws were said to be-permanently
established, the meaning of those words could
only be, that they were permanent so .long as it
should not please Parliament to alter them. Was
it not rea.sonable,therefore, to feel a jealousy as

to the continuance of those taws i.' kveit as to
guard against their Maladministration ? 1 ht.! Hon..
Member who had just sat down Sw.unedfii think
that the Hon: Member for: COrfe Castle had car-
ried his views of danger to an' 'unnecessary ex-
tent .; but it surely belnived them, in legislating
on so important a subject, to take the longest
view within their.reach ; for the law once passed
was beyond their reach, and if any consequent
mischief should arise, it would be no answer to
say that the law might be repealed. The lion.
Member for Corfe Castle said, that there was much
ground foralarm; and the Hon.. Member who last
addressed the House, thought there was, no such
ground ; but both. the one and the other opinion
were mere speculations. They were speculations
upon which he did not presume to judge ; -but he
must say, that upon a question of such para-
mount importance, he would rather look for his
security to the law, than trust to the results. of
chance. The Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr.
Wilberforce) had said the other night, that he
felt strongly inclined to believe that if the re-
strictions upon the Roman Catholics were re-
Moved, many of them would abandon their faith
and become Protestants.- . It was natur. 1 far that
Hon. Gentleman, being himself an extraordinary
good Protestant, and looking, as he did, to the
intrinsic merits of the Protestant faith,, to enter-
tain such an opinion, but he (the Speaker)
doubted whether a good Catholic would not be
equally inclined to say " only give me admission
into the House of Commons, and I will so con-
vince you of the troth of my religion, that you
will all turn Roman Catholics."--(A laugh.)—lle
could not disguise his own opinion, that difficulties
had arisen, arid were accumulating, in consequence
of the alteration which had been made in the clause
originally proposed. It was contended by some
Hon. Gent. that the Words proposed to be added,
made no difference in the meaning of the clause,
but if that were. so, where was the necessity for
alteration ? The Right Hon. Gentleman ' went
On to observe,' that the only difficulty which he
felt in the case was the necessity of altering the
oath for the purpose of admitting...the Catholic.
Te disliked two oaths, one for the Protestant and

the other for the Catholic, and that for the Pro
testants containing something more than that
sworn to by the Catholics. He never attempted
to conceal that this was the part of the question
which was infinitely of•the most importance. He
could not but object altogether to the present in-
terpolation, and yet he did not see how the oath
could be altered so as to effect its purpose with-
out it. An Hon. Gentleman had said that the
whole question turned upon, whether, on the ad-
mission of the Catholics to Parliament, the safety
of the State could be guaranteed ; whether also
the conduct of the Catholics entitled them to the
enjoyment of such a .privilege; and whether,
supposing those points to be allowed, this was
not the most convenient time the concession
should be made ? With respect to the last,
though he had not the same confidence in the suc-
cess of the measure, he agreed with the Hon.
Member that never was there a time when the deli-
berate judgment of Parliament was more likely
to be the deliberate judgment of the people.—
(Cheers !)—As to the second point, he was most
willing to admit that their conduct for a long time
past, and the benefits they had conferred on the
country, entitled them to every thing that could
be granted consistently with the safety•of
•the
State. He did not doubt their sincerity, but he
did not think that their admission to seats in
Parliament was a privilege which, in conformity
with their tenets, they could exercise beneficially
to the Country and Constitution. In his con-
science he did not believe such a privilege could
be safely granted. This was his sincere and de-

liberate opinion, and, as an honest man, he was
bound to support his lion. Friend's Amendment.
—(Hear, hear!)
Mr. CINNING opposed the Amendment. He
-said he considered the point now debated as the
most vital one of the whole.—(Hear, hear !)—lt
was that point, the withholding of which would
take away much from the value of- whatever else
might be conceded, and the concession of which,
'if all others were withholden, would of itself be
of the greatest importance. It was this privilege
which, in addition to the others which the Rt.
llon. Gentleman who had just spoken, and those
who maintained 'his opinion, confessed themselves
ready to grant, that would form the key-stone
of the arch which was to perfect the ample incor-
poration of the great interests which the present
question of /conciliation went to promote. As to
those Hon. Metnbers who maintained with him-
self the practicability of an arrangement, he
conceived that they were not :.ailed upon to ne-
gative the Amendment by any previous vote.--
(Hear, hear !)—An lion. Gentleman opposite
had argued, that there was much difficulty
experienced in reasoning upon this subject
separately, on account of what had been already
granted in fact, but he ('Mr. Canning) did not
admit that there was any thing granted either in
fact or argument, that made it improper that
the present point should be discussed in its
own exclusive merits. Before he considered

the grounds of the adverse .argument; he
could not but acknowledge the manly and can-
did manner in which the 'Right Honourable
Gentleman (the Speaker) had delivered his opi-
_ _

nion—an opinion, which, as he had formed it most
conscientiously, so he was bound in duty to cot-
press it freely.--(Hear, hear!)—ln discharging
that great duty, he had not left for a moment
the road of fair argument, and one, wholesome
result of the course which he adopted was, be-
sides contributing to the fair elucidation of the
subject, to elevate and improve thin temper of de-
bate.—(Hear,'hear !)—The distribution of what
he intended to observe upon, in reply to the ar-
guments adduced on the other side, was first •to
state what he conceived to be the Claims of the
Catholics; under the present circumstances, to ad-
mission to seats in Parliament; and secondly,
what grounds there were for those dangers which

had been raised to obstruct that concession.
speaking, of the claims of men to any political
offices, he should be understood to speak not of
what were called natural claims, and which had
no existence but in wild and impracticable
theory, but of the claims of men in civilised
society, where it was often expedient to controul

•
the rrgh Of a part for. the Sakti of the whole ;
.but then that necessity'should be clearly proved,
and made demonstrable: upon undeniable argu-
ments. When the point became a matter of
-doubt, it 'could only be deterinined ,by showing
whether sochra necessity existed or no.--,(Hear,
hear !)—Without reverting -to any wild theory,
he must lay it down as a principle that there be-,
longs, in,the nature of things, to wealth, intelli-
gence, station, and power, wrhether natural- or
acquired, a desire of something greater, and the
natural ambition of cultivated minds, and the
chief object of persons of rank and opulence in
this country, and which 'had been so for past
ages, and' he hoped would be so for countless
ages to cone, was the lendable object of a seat
in -that Assembly which. !roverned the interests
of the nation..,---(Hear, Clear.!)—lf, any
.class of
qualified persons were to be excluded from both
the possession and hope of that honourable privi-
lege, by positive enactments, circumstances
should be shewn to justify such exclusion by
the existence of a necessity which could not
be controuled.—(Hear, hears).l'i,tow did such
a necessity exist in this case, either in fact
or reason ? lie looked to the history of
the country, and found that up to a certain
period no one had been prosecuted or affected
at all by such enactments. But in that
time the face of Europe had changed, and the
line o demarcation which separated all nations
and people among themselves, was changed. In
looking through Europe, he saw that whatever
was the policy of States, or the basis of their faith,
that lines more especially in Spain and Portugal,
was effaced, and only remained in full force among
ourselves—(Hear, hear !)-WI en our Govern-
ment was compared with
_simpler monarchies, it
would be found that we enjoyed a fuller as well
-as a more regulated liberty-, which gave to every
man, whatever his original station. in society
Might be, a capability of rising to the exercise of
the highest functions of the Constitution. This
right had been denied to the Catholics—the ne-
cessity ought to be made evident ; he had looked
anxiously for the time when that separation took
place. The claims of the CathOlics had been
overlaid since the time of'the Reformation ; they
were overlaid in the-struggle of parties, of which
they afterwards• formed the ;minority ; and were
more overlaid on account of circumstances of sub-
sequent misconduct. But it was the statute of
Charles 11. which disqualified Catholics, on the
ground of Foreign interference. That Foreign in-
terferehce was the cause alleged: Here he was en-
abled to return from theory _to- fact,:,and to ask
what was the Foreign interference, and the sub-
servience to Foreign Powers to be apprehended
now—(Hear, hear!) ?—The cause was removed,
and the consequences which flowed from it ought
no longer -to have any existence. 'Though the
13th of Elizabeth prevented Catholic Commoners'
from sitting in Parliament, yet Queen Elizabeth
did not prevent Peers froth sitting therein. The
Commoners had been 'excluded on the ground
that they were liable to Foreign influence, and
were bound to a Foreign allegiance, but as Peers
were More under the view and controul of the
. This
eAdlotnhaartcici,asthheo.ldicids notfrom having seats in that House by doctrine. or
not exclude
originally epnrtoevd-
dogina-L(Hear!)—lt was not their belief in tran-
substantiation which excluded them, it was a
political reasons and not one of a 'religious na-
ture.- This exclusion lasted 260 years. .But
Peers sat in Parliament till the 30th Charles 11.
which. made tranSubstantiaction not the cause, but
the symbol of the cause;; why both'Peers and
commoners were excluded. He would ask them
for a plausible reason why. Catholic Peers satin
Parliathent froth the Ist Elizabeth to the 30th
Charles LI. ? and why it was ,unsafe to let them
sit there now ?—(Cheers.)—He would for a mo-
ment leave Commoners,out Of the question,' and
ask upon what imaginable ground was it that
Peers sat all that tune in the Great Council of
the State, and were unfit to sit -there now—why
in what strange anomaly did not those laws stand
at present? Commoners were only deprived of 'a
moral right, however qualified, they might 'or
might not be elected to serve in Parliament,
but Peers were divested of a positive privilege,
and these laws going further,annulled their birth
rig;ht.—(Hear.)—They were dispossessed of an
inherent right, they were deprived of that which
belonged to their station and dignity. They still re-
ceived summonses to the House of Lords, and the
Catholic Peers were summoned to the trial the other
day ; they paid the , postage of the letters, but
could not, come.—(Hear, hear ! and laughter.)—
With God's blessing, he hoped this would be
altered ; he did not believe it would lead to the
ruin of the Constittition, that seven Catholic
Peers, when summoned, should redeem them-
selves from postage, and take their seats.—(A
laugh.)—With respect to the Commoners, some
Honourable Members were Afraid . that they
would outnumber them, they were in such masses
at the doOrs,.looking for admittance. TheSe Hon.
Members, whenever the subject was spoken of,
looked and spoke as if they really heard the lion
at the door, and were alarmed lest, if it were
once opened, the many-headed Catholic monster
should be sent in to devour them.—( Laughter.)
As to the Peers, their number 'depended on the
creation of the Crown, and their right was only
suspended. He could easily believe that right
'could be fully exercised by allowing seven Ca-
tholic Peers to take their seats in the House of
Lords, without causing the subversion of the
Constitution. Was any one' prepared to sup-
port the principle, of exclusion with reference to
them, on the ground that there were demagogues
among tliein as among the Commoners ; or would
any one say that the Howards and Talbots had
so degenerated, that . they could not sit in the
House of Lords without danger to the State ?
(Hear, hear)—As to-- the commoners; what was
the danger? let it be looked in the face, and
what did it really appear to be ? Was it feared
that there would be a very numerous return of
Catholics. to that House, or, that being returned',
they would combine, -and being combined, they
would endeavour, by force or argument, to pre-
vail on Parliament to subvert the lawful Reli-
gion of the State, and in its place establish
their. Church ? He never knew of such a
combination ; some men had strong antipathies,

and knew at once, by a sort of instinct, *heft
the cat was in: the room.-L-----(A
did not know -whether any body could discover
st Dissenter in the same manner; but he believ-,
ed that it Was such -a sagacious antipathy, and
Hot the force Of reason, Ivhich raised tip this
danger, and detected men in selling themselves
beforehand to an object of which they had never
dreamed: He Would like to know, supposing
the Catholics Cherished such intentions, how they
were. to be adcomplished ? would grant that
one hundred Catholics should be returned, foe
argument's sake, and that they should congreg.ate
to overturn the State and the Church, though he
should be obliged to retract that by and: by.
Now he knew but three ways in which any men
or body of men could attempt to carry any ob-
ject ; first, by reason ; secondly, ,by , numbers;
and thirdly, by force alone. Was it then, in the
first place, to be...supposed, that the 100 Catholic
Members should possess such powers of argument
and eloquence, should have such a prodigious as-
cendency of intellect and wisdom, as to prevail
on all the other Members of ,that House to disa
place their own Church establishment, and erect
the altars of the Catholic worship on i
.ts ruins ?
Wcs this for a moment to be supposed probable ?
was it not one Of the wildest of all imagi-
nable absurdities ? would not the most distant at-
tempt of the kind be at once met and defeated ?
Would, not even a motion for a scrap of paper, •
having such a tendency, be scouted with disdain ?
—(Hear, hear !)—ln the next place, could it be
imagined they were to prevail by numbers ? How.
was that to be done ? He could not conceive,
unless they treated the majority of that Rowe in
the same way that an Hon. Gentleman the other
night threatened to treat the opinions which he
had to combat, when in arguing against Arch-
deacon Pale's-, he said he would throw the book
in the fire ;—(A laugh.)—or, like .Harty the
Eighth, who had gone:a little farther, when he
said to the schoolmaster who presumed to dis-
pute with hint on theology, " I will throw- you
in the fire."—(Laughter.)—Those two ways•be-
ing disposed of, there only remained mere fctree ;
and he Would ask, if that disposition was pre:Va-
lent among the Catholics,
.how were they- to
guard against it now ?—(Hear!)—lf the feeling
abroad .was.to use force, was it the way to prevent
that by excluding them from the representation,
which.calms popular ebullitions,' and .cools dawn
men's impulses into temperate deliberation
In the scheme of our
_Government by which
the rights of the population were guaranteed,
it was his own opinion that all interests were
Virtually represented in that House, except
the one, and, the first act of Representatives
within these walls, was to take an, oath of-de-
testation to that interest ; and it was carryingmat-
ters a little too far, to suppose, that such an. in-
terest could be watched over and guarded,
which was in the first instance denounced by.the
Representatives of the People with abhorrence.
hear.)—But he said, place the Catholics
n ,that House, and neither threats,. numbers, or
external violence were to be dreaded. But men,
in looking to imaginary, often overlooked real.
danger. By looking to the laws, as they :now
stood, it was not impossible, that through Catho-
lic agency, they might have. a Catholic Speaker
to occupy that Chair now so ably and -ho-
nourably filled ; for in electing a Speaker. it
was not necessary to take the oaths, and sup-
posing, that at the commencement of the new-Par-
liament, a number of Catholics voted a Catholic
into the Chair, where- was the remedy ? -Was
it in that palladium-of Protestantism, the 30th
Charles 11. ? It was enacted by that Statute,
that after the election of a Speaker, each -Iktern
ber should take the declaration against transqb-
stantiation, and thus each Member being attire
Table, and a Catholic Speaker already in the
Chair, could the taking of the oaths, and mak,
ing the declaration, then undo what had been
previously done ?—(Hear, hear ?) —Could the
maxim be applied in this case, -nemo tenetur ad-
impossibile, for here was no impossibility ? The
thing was already. accomplished ; not only the
practicability was proved, but the fact had oc-
curred, and how was it to be remedied ? He
acknowledged -this was not a very probable..
event, nor was it very wise to apprehend it, but
he conceived himself to act just as wisely in put
ting such a case, as those Gentlemen who had'
conjured up so !nary imaginary dangers.—
(Cheers.) The Right Honourable Member
then proceeded to observe upon the conse;
quences of the concessions already made to-
Catholics with respect to the Army and Navy,
where not less danger was to be apprehend-
ed from Catholics, if unfaithful, than from •
ParliaMentary power. He next remarked
upon the state of the Colonies, where Catholics
might perforni the duties of Civil governors; he-
refuted the argument, that their 'Bishops were
not recognized in this-country by law, but only
tolerated by connivance, because we acknow-
ledged the ordination of their Priests, and there-
fore recognized episcopal functions; •and even if
a Catholic Priest were converted to the Church
of England, and presented with a benefice, it
was not necessary that he should be re-ordained,
so completely was the act of his own Bishop re-
garded as authentic. lie allowed that it would
be fair to exclude Catholics from civil offices to
which ecclesiastical patronage was attached, as
the Chancellorship of England, for instance,
though not of Ireland, and from being Judges in
the Spiritual Courts. .Ile denied that the oathlo
be taken by the Protestant, according to the pre-
sent Bill, would be more severe than that taken -
by the Catholic, because the Protestant believed
less,and indulged in-a greater latitude of incredu-.:.
lity. He had no obje'ction that the oath should
changed, if it was necessary to ascertain how man3i:-.:
Catholics came into that House, though perhaPs-'..,±
the best improvement would be that
would enable both to take it. Vie Right Hon..'
Member next adverted to what had been said by
the Hon. Member (Mr. Bankes) who moved the t
Amendment, respecting the intercourse of the'
Catholics with the See of Rome. Did any man
doubt that this intercoT-se had existed for years,
notwithstanding the severity, the impracticable
severity, with which it was interdicted ? By the
13th -of Elizabeth, it was declared treason to
receive any Bull from the Court of Rome, and