The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-21 00:00:00

MURDER AND ROBBERY.

Yesterday morning considerable excitement was created at
the Thames Police-court by a rumour that a man named
Luke Williams, proprietor of tie Chequers public-house,
Wapping-wall, had been robbed and murdered at a brothel,
6, Brunswick-place, Dorset-street, Ratelitf. With the ex-
ception that the man still breathes, though without the
:itlighteSt chance of recovery, the report proved but too true.
• :It AAttinis that Williams, though a married man, and nearly
sitiSVYears of age, had formed a connexion with a young
worn= named Rosetta Bragger, who resided at 6, I.lruns-
wick-place. Ho had frequently been robbed in that house
before, but in consequence of his attachment to the young
woman, always refused to give the parties in charge.
About ten minutes to nine o'clock in the forenoon of yes-
terday, information was conveyed to Sergeant llarris, the
acting inspector, that Williams had been robbed, and was
then lying insensible at his own house, in a most precarious
condition. He immediately directed Wiseman, 156 K, who
had been on duty in Dorset-street the previous day, together
with Munford, another constable of the K division, to lose
no time in taking into custody all the parties supposed to be
implicated in the robbery and assault, and, accordingly, about
three o'clock, James Halstead, a coalwhipper, Alexander
Nicholson, a milkman, Mary Anne Ashe, and her sister,
Rosetta Bragger, who was the chief attraction of Williams
to Brunswick-place, were brought up to this Court, Halstead
being charged with having assaulted Williams, and the three
latter with having robbed him of about 30/.
Police constable Wiseman stated, that on Sunday morning,
about half-past 8 o'clock, having been informed by Mrs.
Williams that her .husband had been robbed in Brunswick-
place of a 20/. note, a 51. note, and some sovereigns, he went
to the place, and found Williams outside the door, and was
answered from the window by the prisoner Rose, who re-
fused to admit either of them. Williams then broke a pane
and undid the sash, when they both entered, and found the
two female prisoners and their mother. Williams refused to
give any of them into custody until the prisoner Nicholson,
who resided in the house, and had part of the money, came
home, when he would give him and Mary Ann Ashe in
charge. Witness called again at 4in the afternoon, and saw
Williams, as he thought, insensibly drunk on a chair. Mary
Ann Ashe was there, and another sister, named Louisa ;
but Nicholson had not returned. The mother of the female
prisoners told witness that Williams had been fighting with
a man outside, who first lent him a shilling, and then knocked
him down. Mrs. Williams then came and took her husband
home in a cab. 'Yesterday morning about 9 o'clock, by di-
rection of Sergeant Harris, who ordered him to take all the
parties implicated into custody, witness apprehended 'Nichol-
son on the charge of robbery. At the station-house Nicholson
admitted that he saw Williams on Saturday morning with
his waistcoat-pocket full of sovereigns, and received a sove-
reign from him to get a half-pint 0£ rum. Witness asked
Nicholson, who appeared to have been drinking, what money
he had then about hint, and he answered about a sovereign
in silver ; but, on being searched, 21. and 6d. in silver, and
41d. in copper, were found upon hint. About 11 o'clock the
two female prisoners were apprehended at a cookshop in
'Broad-street, Ratclitr. Since then, witness ascertained that
Williams, who, he understood, was still insensible and not
expected to live, had shown two Bank of England notes at a
public-house in Brook-street. When witness first saw Wil-
liams he had a severe black eye, which he said he had re-
ceived from a man named. Bragger, not yet in custody, and
who either is, or passes as, the husband of the female prisoner
of that name.

Elizabeth Villiers, proprietress of the King's Head, at the
corner of Periwinkle-street, Ratelitf, saw the man Williams
at her house on Saturday with two notes and some gold and
silver, which he pulled out of his pocket. The gold and
silver might amount to about 41. or 51. 'They fell ton► him
at the bar; but she picked up the money and returned it to
him, wrapping the gold in the notes, and saying " You
foolish man, take care of your money."
Rebecca Ashe, the mother of the female prisoners, said that
on Sunday morning, between 11 and 12, Williams came to
the house drunk, and Halstead was authorised by Nicholson
to turn him out, upon which Halstead and Williams struck
at each other once.

George Bragger said he went to Dorset-street to see his
brother for the purpose of having a walk, when he met two
policemen who told him Williams had been robbed. Nichol
son came there; but the policemen did not take him into
custody. He slept with Nicholson, who went out at half-
past five on Monday morning to sell his milk. The witness
said he had been all day at the house No. 6, Brunswick-
place, with the exception of having ran across the street to
the Lamb to get a drop of beer. When ho returned he saw
Williams on the ground, bleeding at the mouth, and Halstead
over him. Witness said, " Come ; we've had quite enough
of that ; let us have no more of it."
Mr. Rose, surgeon, of High-street, Shadwell, saw Williams
at ten o'clock on Sunday night, when he was quite insensible,
witness believed from some external injury. The left
eye was black and the lower lip cut and swollen. Witness
could not swear positively whether the injured man was re-
duced to his present state by drunkenness or external violence,
until after a post mortem examination. Mrs. 'Williams could
testify as to his state before the injury ; but she was at present
at his bed side. Witness endeavoured to rouse him, but in
vain ; and there was no likelihood of his surviving two hours
longer; neither was it probable that his depositions could be
taken.

The constable, Wiseman, said that the witness Bragger was
brother to the man not yet in custody, and who was sup-
posed to have inflicted the blow alluded to by the surgeon.
He had thrown every possible obstacle in the way of the
inquiries instituted by the police.
Mr. BAILANTYNE—Then why is not ho in custody? . By
his own showing he was amongst the people implicatetlin
a transaction likely to end iu a man's death.
Bragger was immediately transferred to the dock amongst
the other prisoners.
Mr. BALIANTYN It remanded the prisoners until Wednes-
day, and directed that immediate notice should be gii)en if
Williams so far recovered as to be able to make depositions.'
We have since learned that the unfortunate mau died in
the course of the evening.
The deceased was fifty -eight years of age, and was formerly
a courier in the service of her Majesty's Government. He
was superannuated a few years ago on a pension of 801. per
annum.

MUNIFICENT GlFT.—George Bayly, Es . of
Brunswick-terrace, Plymouth, has given the munificent
sum of 2,0001. to trustees in perpetuity, the interest of
which is to be appropriated for ever as follows :-20/.
year to the Devon and Cornwall Female Orphan, Asp.
luna ;_,201 to the Damn -and-Cortiwall to
the Eye Infirmary ; and 10/. to the Freo School— {Vert
Briton,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, 3118 20
Their Lordships assembled at Five o'clock.
Messengers from the Commons brought up several
Bills.
The Bishop of CHESTER presented several peti-
tions against the union of the see., of St. Asaph and
Bangor.
Lord CAMPBELL presented several petitions,
praying the House to legalise Presbyterian mired
marriages.
LANCASTER AND CARLISLE RAILWAY.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a
petition from the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway
Company, praying their Lordships to facilitate the
progress of this Railway Bill through Parliament.
Lord BROUGHAM did not wish to interpose any
unnecessary delay in the progress of this Bill. He
must say, however, that it was rather a novel pro-
ceeding on the part of railway jobbers to present
a petition to their Lordship; praying their Lordships
to interfere between the two Houses of Parliament,
when a conference had taken place between
them on the subject of some particular Bill. He
would just state generally the facts of the case to their
Lordships. He had consented to abandon his
opposition to the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway
Bill upon certain conditions. Had it not been fur
those conditions, he would have opposed the Bill in
every stage, and he would have devoted himself to
that opposition, and he would have done nothing else
but oppose the Bill for a period of six months.—
(Laughter.) His Noble I riends laughed, but let
them be placed in the same situation, and they would
find it no laughing matter. It was no laughing mat-
ter to be driven from your own home by a railway
being brought so near to that home as to make it
quite impossible to remain there—to be driven from
that home in which your ancestors had dwelt for up-
wards of 900 years. He had waived his objection to
this Bill for the public good, upon two conditions. One
of these conditions had been performed, the other had not.
It was very well to say that the condition had not
been fulfilled, because the House of Commons would
not consent to it. He could not yet discover in what
way the opposition to the clause had been raised in
the other House of Parliament. Indeed the Right
Honourable Speaker had assured him that the
clause was very much talked of in the House
before ,it was discussed in the Committee.
He -.lla&hargained with the parties to the Bill to
withdraw his opposition, on condition that he
should have the clause, and it was of no use for them
to say that the Commons would not agree to it. He
should therefore oppose the Bill, as they had taken
away the condition on which he had taken away his
opposition. Some of the members of the Company
were most respectable men, and his friends, and in-
capable of any fraud. Bat some one connected with
the other parties had procured the fraud to be done. He
would ask their Lordships, how would any of them like
a jobbing railwaycompany to cutthrough their grounds,
to keep a waste all round their domains for three or four
years—to drive them from the mansions, and castles,
and villas, in which their ancestors had been domi-
ciled for centuries—and to have their privacy broken
in upon by hordes of labourers from every part of the
United Kingdom ?—(Hear and laughter.) Still he
had pledged his word that, on condition of obtaining
the clause, he would withdraw his opposition. But
he would not consent to be trampled upon by any
Company, because they were many and he was but
one.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Lord CAMPBELL said that the opposition of his
Noble and Learned Friend might be very proper,
and the clause might be very justifiable. But the
opposition to it, as he understood, was grounded on
the fact that it had been introduced, not in Commit-
tee, but upon bringing up the report, and that with-
out notice, so that it was passed sub silentio. It was
on that ground, as explained to their Lordships in
the conference, that the House of Commons threw out
the clause.—(Hear, hear.) He was sure that no one
could suppose it was thrown out to disoblige his Noble
and Learned Friend, for (as he said unfeignedly) no
one could think of disobliging his Noble and Learned
Friend, who was so courteous and obliging.—(Laugh-
ter.) The objection to the clause was, that it ought
not to have been inserted without notice.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the objection to
want of notice was groundless, inasmuch as the other
parties had assented to the clause.—(Hear, hear.) For
his part he had rather throw out the Bill than accept
the clause.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to ex-
plain why he had presented the petition. He had
taken no interest in the measure, but as the
petition was placed in his hands he had
thought it his duty to present it. He under-
stood the facts to be, the Railroad Company
had no objection to the clause, but that the Com-
mittee of the House of Commons looked upon it as in
the nature of an amendment upon a Turnpike Bill,
and therefore rejected it because it had been intro-
duced without notice as required by the standing orders.
He thought this so great and important a railway
that it ought not to stop because the House of Com-
mons would not pass an Act to amend a Turnpike
Act. He hoped his Noble Friend would have no ob-
jection to discuss this subject to-morrow, or Thurs-
day. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving
that the petition should lie on the table, and that the
reasons of the House of Commons for disagreeing
with their Lordships' amendments should be printed.
—Agreed to.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a
place in Lancashire, in favour of the Roman Catholic
Charitable Bequests Bill.
HARBOUR OF PORT PATRICK.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY seeing the
Noble rao, the First Lord of the Admiralty in his
place, wished to know whether it was the intention of
the Government to withhold this year any grant for
the purpose of putting the harbour of Port Patrick
and Donaghadee in a proper state of repair. If that
harbour was not to be kept up as a packet-station, it
ought at least to be put in a proper state of repair, so
as not to endanger the lives of her Majesty's subjects,
and if it was not so the fault would be
with her Majesty's Ministers, of whom it would be
said that they would not expend the paltry sum of
8,0001. to secure the lives of her Majesty's subjects.
The Earl of lIADDINGTON said that this sub-
ject had excited a great deal of interest. Last year
when his Noble Friend put a similar question to him,
he stated that it was not the intention of her Ma-

jesty's Government to take any vote for
the improvement of Port Patrick, as the
Government believed that they had done
enough towards the construction of the harbour.
Since, however, his Noble Friend had given him
notice of this question, he had made inquiry, and he
found that a communication had been made to the
Government, and the result of that was that the Go-
vernment had altered their former determination, and
they now intended, in the course of the present ses-
sion, to take a vote fur the purpose of dredging the
harbour of Port Patrick and Donaghadee.
The Earl of GALLOWAY expressed a hope that
steamers of great power would be placed upon this
station.

After a few words from the Marquis of DOWN-
SHIRE, the subject dropped.
CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAILWAY.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to put
a question to the Government on the subject of the
Chester and Holyhead Railway, as it was called. He
wished to learn whether the Government would have
any objection to refer this Bill to a Select Committee,
inasmuch as he understood that if it should pass, a con-
' siderable sum of public money would be expended by
the Government in carrying out the project ?
The Earl of _DALHOUSIE said there was no ob-
jection on the part of the Government to the appoint-
ment of such a Committee, but he would remind their
Lordships that the subject had already been fully dis-
cussed in both Houses of Parliament.
After a few words from Lord KENYON,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE gave notice
that he should to-morrow move that this Bill be re-
ferred to a Select Committee.

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVE TI_IsYG, MAY 21, 1844.

anticipate any objection to the second reading. It
was a Bill to amend the law relating to
factories which was passed in 1836, and the measure
was founded on the report of the Commissioners on
that subject. He would now endeavour to explain
what difference there was between the proposed and
the existing law. The first alteration proposed was
with respect to children in factories. At present
children from nine to thirteen years of age worked
nine hours a day. Now the presse Bill, in the first
place, proposed to make the age eight instead of nine,
and to decrease the hours of labour to six and a half
hours, making certain provisions with respect to the
children going to school for a certain number of hours
in each day, namely, three and a half hours in sum-
mer and two aria a half in winter; and the
utmost work for any male child under the
provisions of the new Act would be seven
hours. He was sure that he need not point
out to their Lordships the fact that such a provision
would prevent a great deal of overworking in chil-
dren. The regulation by the law, as it now stood,
was, that all young persons between thirteen and
eighteen should be restricted to twelve hours' labour.
The present Bill made no alteration in that respect,
but it restricted the labour of females and young per-
sons. The other provisions of the Bill affected the
inspectors. In the former Bill they had the power of
acting as magistrates, and making rules and regula-
tions ; both those powers were by the present Bill
taken away. It was thought necessary that the re-
gulations should be fixed by law, and not be left to
the discretion of the inspectors. This Bill provided
that no child should be allowed to go into a factory
without a surgeon's certificate, and the expense of
those certificates was to be defrayed by the millowner.
The Bill also provided that the existing fines upon
millowners for infringing the provisions of the factory
laws should be reduced, so as to insure their being
imposed in every case where it should be necessary.
The Bill also contained provisions respecting ma-
chinery, inasmuch as it provided that certain guards
should be placed round the machinery in facto-
ries, so as to protect the persons employed upon
it. These were the general provisions of the
Bill. Their Lordships were aware that there
had been considerable difficulty in passing
this Bill through the House of Commons. The Go-
vernment, unfortunately, were compelled to differ
with some of their best supporters. But there were
times when it was the duty of the Government to be
firm. It was the duty of the Government to inform
themselves, as well as they could, upon the particular
subject before they proposed any law, and they had
studiously done so with respect to this Bill.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said the Noble
Lord had introduced this Bill with sufficient clear-
ness, but, at the same time, he had not entered much
into detail as to the principles upon which the mea-
sure had been introduced by the Government. Hav-
ing occupied the department of the Government be-
fore which this subject more immediately came, he
(the Marquis of Normanby) had devoted considerable
attention to it. He felt that the present Bill did not
go far enough.—(Cheers.) His opinion, in spite
of the ironical cheer from his Noble Friends behind
him, was, that as they had once commenced inter-
ference with labour, the Bill did not go far
enough. No doubt, in stating this opinion, he should
be placed with those who had been termed idle philan-
thropists ; but this would not deter him from the full
expression of his opinions upon the subject. He had
always felt that, owing to the vast accumulation of
population in the manufacturing districts, some mea-
sure of legislation was necessary with respect to the
hours of labour of the working portion of that popu-
lation. He had observed that, for many years past,
the owners of factories had employed women and chil-
dren whenever they could, to the exclusion of the male
portion of the population ; and it was a very common
thing, in the manufacturing districts, to see a mother
and her children working, while the husband was at
home, living in a state of forced idleness. He believed
that a limitation of the laws of labour could, in a
great measure, remedy this evil. He did not believe
that a reduction in the hours of labour to ten hours
would injure any branch of our manufactures.
Twelve hours daily toil was too much, for it would
only leave about nine hours of repose, inasmuch as
one hour and a half would be daily consumed in the
meals of the operative, and the other hour and a half
would be consumed in going to and from the factory.
Those who worked by tilling the soil did not work,
on the average, twelve hours per day through the
year, because their hours were limited by the light of
day. Why, then, should the operatives in the manu-
facturing districts work longer? He (the Marquis
of Normanby) was aware that, in expressing this
opinion, he was differing from many of those with
whom he had the happiness usually to concur,
He did not intend to make any motion on the sub-
ject, or to offer any opposition to this stage of the
BiII ; he had merely risen to enter his protest
against that portion of the Bill which referred to the
hours of labour, as it was his firm conariction, that
the limits which had been proposed were much too
great. He did not think it was necessary to do more
than state his opinions upon this question. Much
as he regarded its importance in itself, he regarded it
much more in consequence of the manner in
which it had been brought to its present state.
Looking to the names by which the measure had
eventually passed in the other House, he thought
the means by which those names had been obtained
were of great importance.
The Earl of DEVON put it to the Noble Mar-
quis whether it was proper that they should in that
House discuss the grounds upon which Members of
the other House had given their votes ?
Lord KENYON thought the Noble Marquis was
in perfect order in discussing the manner in which
the Bill had come up to that House ; but he was not
in order in commenting on individual votes in the
other House of Parliament.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he did
not mean to remark upon the individual votes. But
as it had been asserted in the other House, dur-
ing the discussion of that Bill, that the working
classes were not represented in Parliament, he felt it
right to express his regret that anything should have
been done to justify that statement, and to make the
people discontented with the present state of the Con-
stitution, and to impress them with the belief that
however they might be virtually represented in Par-
liament, their interests were not represented. He did
not think that the seat of any one Member of the
House of Commons would be affected by the rote
which he had given upon that question, because it did
not affect the interest of those who were directly af-
fected. In the northern division of the county of
York there was, even amongst that class of electors,
a strong feeling upon the subject ; and there
would be a great deal of surprise that the Go-
vernment, which had received so great a support
there, should stake its existence upon that Bill. If he
supported the Government, he would have thought
their conduct most injudicious and unfortunate. See-
ing that he could gain nothing by resisting the second
reading of the Bill, he would not oppose it, but con-
tent himself by giving his protest against it.
Lord BROUGHAM would occupy the House
very shortly ; but he must say that from
the very beginning of his Noble Friend's speech to
theit, he had only heard reasons
whyly
Brougham) was opposed to the Bill us
he end(Lo ofdf
Coto. He opposed a Twelve Hours' Bill and a Ten
Hours' Bill,—(Hear, hear.) Those who opposed any
interference with labour might go so far as to agree
with the restriction of twelve hours ; but that was no
reason why they should go a stage further, and vote
for a ten hours He had already so fully expressed
his opinions OP the subject, when the Labour in
Mines Bill was before the House, that it was not
necessary to take ap the time of the House at any
length in that discussion. His Noble Friend re-
gretted that the House of Commons had come to this
decision, because fie thought that it would be the
means of convincing the working classes that the
Reform Bill had not done them justice—that they
were not represented in that House, because that
branch of the Legislature refused to say that the peo-
ple should have a legislative shackle put upon them,
and that they should not work as many hours as they
found themselves able to do, and as they wished to
work. These shackles would be as oppressive as any
of those on the other side of the Atlantic. It would
place those people under the shackles of an Act of
Parliament, and would not leave them at liberty to
exert their natural powers to their own best
advantage. Ilow would any higher class of la-
bourers like to be confined to ten hours of labour ?
But it was from the blunder that they would get
twelve hours' wages for ten hours' work, that the whole
outcry arose.—(Fear, hear.) He could only ascribe
the support of tech a measure as this to a mistaken
humanity on the part of its promoters.—(Hear.)
It had been said that the agricultural labourers were
exempt from such toil as those engaged in the facto-
ries. It was said that those had more bread and less
labour. But that was not the fact, and if ever the
question of the condition of labourers in the factories
came before the House, he would be prepared to
show that the condition of the agricultural labourers
was much worse.—(llear, hear.) He would show
that they were hardly fed, badly clad, severely
wrought.—(Hear, hear.) He would show that in
those districts where fuel was dear, they returned—
men and boys, and women, too—in inclement weather,
through rain and through snow, to houses which
did not keep out the wind and the rain—to
beds which were not once dry throughout
the entire winter—(Hear, hear)—and with clothes
which, in wet seasons, were always wet.—(Hear.)
A boy of 17 followed the plough ; he was exposed to
all species of weather, and yet nobody thought of
protecting him ; they left him to make his own bar-
gain, and if he was under the age that had been
adverted to, he was left to the care of his parents as
his natural protectors,. He warned their Lordships.
riot to interfere with the provisions of nature which
had implanted in parents the love of their children.
The Legislature ought to interfere between

parent and child, the effect of which would inevitably
be to deaden the natural feelings of nature. The
present Bill had made a great change in the law with
respect to factories—it had provided with respect to
women that they should not work over a certain num-
ber of hours, supposing that a woman was not com-
petent to make a bargain as well as any one else.
lie would not object to the Bill further, except enter-
ing his protest against it, believing that the best
course to adopt would be to leave those who laboured
in factories to legislate for themselves us to the time
they should work.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORM ANBY explained.
The Earl of WINCHILSEI considered this Bill
to be a great improvement on the present law, but he
could not but express his regret that the limitation of
the labour of children in factories had not been re-
duced to ten hours. lie believed that the atmosphere
they breathed was of the most pernicious character.
They could not compare the agricultural labourer
with the manufacturing labourer, because the former
breathed fresh air while the other inhaled
the most obnoxious vapours. lie thought the
Legislature had very justly established the principle
of interference. Ten hours was the extent of labour
which the great body of the agricultural
labourers in this country underwent. Such a
picture of misery among the agricultural labourers, as
the Noble Lord had drawn, did not, and could not
exist ; but he trusted the time would come when the
manfacturers themselves would find it to their advan-
tage to limit the hours of labour of children in their
factories.

Lord CAMPBELL supported the Bill. He could
not agree with his Noble Friend that the Legislature
ought not to interfere, because he thought there were
cases in which the Legislature ought to interfere
with labour. He thought they could not safely go
further in the reduction of labour than twelve hours;
and he believed that there never was an instance of
less labour than that of the manufacturers of this
country, with the exception of the case alluded to by
Sir Thomas More with respect to Utopia.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord, having read an extract
from the writings of Sir Thomas, proceeded:—
Until his Noble Friend could persuade him that the
statement of Sir Thomas More with respect to Utopia
was correct he (Lord Campbell) should persist in
supporting the Twelve Hours' Bill.
The Earl of lIADDINGTON said that her Majesty's
Government had been accused of inconsistency with
respect to this measure. He could not for a moment
understand upon what ground this assertion had been
made. It had been said that her Majesty's Ministers, in
the other House ofParliament, were exceedinglyanxious
that their supporters should give votes in accordance
with the wishes of their constituents, and they de-
termined upon relying for support with respect to
that Bill apon their political opponents. Now, he
could not allow this foolish assertion to go forth with-
out protesting, in his place in Parliament, against it.
A more absurd proposition was never put forth, for it
was ridiculous to suppose that any Government could
resort to such a feeble attempt to obtain support for
any measure whatever,
The Earl of MINTO objected to this measure, not
on the ground of its not going far enough, but on the
ground that it went a great deal too far. He was
entirely opposed to any interference with adult la-
bour whatever.

The Earl of lIADDINOToN and the Marquis of
NOEMANEY briefly explained.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE, in reply, denied that
the Government had used any influence to turn the
majority in the other House of Parliament in their
favour. He believed that the agitation which had
been got up in the country upon this question had
been got up for improper purposes.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on the 31st inst.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Sir J. CHETWODE, a new
writ was ordered for the borough of Buckingham, in
the room of Sir Thomas Fremantle, who, since his
election had accepted the office of Secretary at War.
The Whitehaven Railway Bill was read a third
time and passed.
SHEFFIELD, ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, AND
MANCHESTER RAILWAY.

On the motion that this Bill be read a third time.
Mr. ESTCOURT sail, that an arbitration clause
had been introduced into this Bill, which, if passed,
he thought would establish a dangerous precedent.
He would, therefore, suggest that the third reading
of the Bill be postponed for a fortnight, in order that
a person might be sent down to Ashton, by the
Board of Trade, to settle the disputed point, and that
a clause founded upon his report should be in-
troduced into the Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, as Chairman of the Com-
mittee, - was inclined to agree with the Hon.
Gentleman in this proposition, inasmuch as
he believed that the substantial object for which the
Committee had been appointed had been accomplished.
The simple question was how the land which the
'Company were not about using should be appro-
priated. He was obliged to the Mon. Member for
bringing the matter before the Ilouse, and
also thought that his views were the best and
soundest that had been taken of the matter.
After a few words from Mr. PARKER and Lord
GRANVILLE SOMERSET, the third reading was post-
poned for a fortnight.
The third reading of the Ashton and Staleybridge
Railway Bill was likewise postponed for a fortnight.
DUBLIN AND CASHEL RAILWAY.
Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from the
Grand Jury of Dublin, in favour of the line of Rail-
way between Dublin and Cashel.
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to move that as much of
the Fourth Report of the Select Committee on Rail-
ways as related to the alteration of the 33d standing
order be adopted by the House. The adoption
of this proposition was a matter of great importance
to all parties connected with railway property.
In proposing the repeal of that part of the standing
order which related to deposits, he by no means
wished to cast the slightest imputation on the stand-
ing order itself. When made, it might have been the
best which the House could adopt, and he had no
doubt it was a wise and salutary provision.—(Hear.)
Its operation had been this, that money was ad-
vanced, and so far the House had a guarantee that
the parties connected with the Bill were acting
bond fide. But, with regard to the persons by whom
the money was to be deposited, the Standing Order
was not complied with, for the money was principally
advanced by persons interested in the new
scheme who had the command of capital.
The standing order was passed with a view of dis-
countenancing unsound speculations, but it operated
also to check those speculations which were sound in
themselves, and at a time when trade was depressed,
when it was rather desirable to stimulate undertakings
of this description. So far as regarded those periods
which were not periods of active speculation generally
the reduction of the deposits would produce almost
unmixed good. It might be asked what security had
they except from the deposits ? His answer was,
they did not propose to do away with
the deposits altogether, but to reduce them,
and the great advantage of deposits was not so much
in their amount as in their being deposits of any
amount. But he thought it would be necessary that tLe
House should take some measures to make a more
strict examination into Railway Bills than heretofore
-that they should look more narrowly into the
public reasons and objects of such Bill than
they were previously accustomed to do—(Hear)
—because he admitted that if it was probable they
should continue for future years to abide by the same
unregulated proceedings with regard to Railway Bills,
which prevailed to a great extent up to the present
time, the proposition which he now made, although it
might be deserving of adoption on some grounds,
would, on the whole, be liable to grave objections.
He was not now prepared to explain in definite terms
the precise nature of the measure to which he referred,
because its precise nature was now occupying the
anxious attention of the Committee to which that
House had delegated inquiry upon the whole subject
of railways ; but he did say that some measure for
the examination of railway schemes was requisite, and
it wss because he believed that proposition to be in-
disputable, that he ventured to put it to the House
that they might proceed so far as to part with a cer-
tain portion of the security which they had hitherto
possessed. The proposition which he now made to the
House would have the effect of assimilating the rule of
the House of Commons to the rule which subsisted in
the House of Lords, and he had been apprised on good
authority that that rule was not adopted by the House
of Lords without mature consideration, which he
thought an additional recommendation for the adop-
tion of his proposition. He therefore begged leave to
move that the standing order No. 33 be rescinded.
There was another matter to which he wished to refer.
It had been suggested that the parties, instead of being
obliged to deposit money, should be allowed to deposit
Exchequer bills or other public securities. It ap-
peared to those parties that they were obliged to
leave money in an unfruitful state when it was thus
deposited. But there was nothing in the Act of
Parliament which should prevent the invest-
ment of those deposits in the public secu-
rities after the deposits had been made.
He did not think it would be expedient that Parlia-
ment should require the money to lie without pro-
ducing interest, because that would be imposing a
pecuniary fine. Such was not the case as the law
stood at that moment, and therefore the Committee
had not made any recommendation.
The Clerk having read the Order at full length,
Mr. HUME said he had listened with, great
attention to what had fallen from the Right Hon.
Gentleman, but, looking at the evils which the stand-
ing order was intended to prevent, he had great
doubts as to the propriety of abrogating it. He was

not aware, from the notice, of the extent to which the
Right Hon. Gentleman intended to go. He confessed
he did not see why greater facilities should be afforded
to speculators of this kind than to any others. It
had been proved before the Committee that one
hundred labourers had received five shillings each
fur signing five different names, subscribing
5,0001., in order to make out the list for the
prospectus. That was by no means a solitary case.
Now he could not see any inconvenience, when a rail-
way was to be constructed, in having the
subscription lodged in Exchequer bilis. He thought
that 10 per cent. was not a large sum to deposit. He
had doubts as to the propriety of making these ex-
ceptions in favour of Railroad Bills. He asked that
before assent to this proposition, the evidence on
which the Committee had determined should be laid
upon the table. He thought this discussion should
be postponed until the evidence should be before the
House.

Mr. LABOUCHERE despaired of being able to
add anything to what had fallen from the Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Trade. lie
agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that
when these undertakings were little understood it
was right to have 10 per cent. deposited, but now
that they were better understood such a regulation
was no longer necessary. At a time too when so
many persons were wanting employment, it was es-
pecially desirable to encourage these undertakings.
He could confirm the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman that the subject had been fully discussed
in that Committee before the recommendation had
been agreed to.
Sir R. PEEL admitted that the House was not
bound by the recommendation of the Committee, but
still, when they had appointed a Select Ccimmittee,
although their recommendation was not binding on
the House of Commons, he thought it was at least
entitled to the respectful consideration of the House.
The Committee was composed of gentlemen ad-
mirably qualified to decide upon the subject,
and who had the advantage of deliberating upon
it ; but he took higher ground upon this occa-
sion. The carrying of this motion would materially
facilitate the passing of the Bill for the construction
of the Dublin and Cashel Railway.—(Hear, hear.)
This railway had been undertaken without any
Government grant. It had been undertaken
by persons of every party in politics. It was of great
importance that the example set in this instance
should be encouraged. It would tend to give employ-
ment to the labouring classes in Ireland ; and he
hoped, before the cloSe of the session, that the Royal
assent would be given to a Bill for the formation of a
railway between Dublin and Cashel.—(Cheers.)
Mr. VERNON SMITH wished for the postpone-
ment of the discussion ; he thought the reason given
by the Hon. Gentleman ought not to influence the
House.

Mr. GLADSTONE said the recommendation did
not extend to more than three or four lines.
Mr. R. FERGUSON said that keeping the order
as it at present stood was a practical fraud, and he
proved that it did not afford the slightest security.
After a few words from Mr. MASTERMAN,
Mr. HUME replied—He had heard no answer to
his objection, and he should, therefore, take the sense
of the House on the question.
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman had mis-
understood him; he had not supported the recom-
mendation for any specific Bill, but for the advantage
it would give to the formation of railways in Ireland
generally.
Mr. WARBLTRTON supported the motion for the
postponement.
Mr. HUME thought the question ought to be ad-
journed till they got the evidence taken before the
Committee printed. The lion. Gentleman moved,
that the debate be adjourned.
Mr. GISBORNE thought, if the question was put
off upon the ground stated by the Hon. Member for
Montrose, it would have the effect of putting it off till
the end of the session. He hoped the House would
at once agree to the resolution.
After some observations from Mr. Hums and Mr.
GLADSTONE, the amendment of Mr. Hume was with-
drawn, and the motion was agreed to.
SAVINGS' BANKS.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he would to-morrow
ask for returns relating to savings' banks and Go-
vernment annuities.
Sir R. FERGUSON moved for a return of the
expense of each district lunatic asylum in Ireland for
the year ending the 31st of March, 1844, showing
the total annual expense, the annual average expense
of each patient, the number of patients from each,
and the sum charged to each county in the year ;
also of the number of patients in each on the first
day of April, 1843, the number admitted, the number
discharged, distinguishing those discharged as cured,
as relieved, as harmless and incurable, and the number
transferred to workhouses ; the number who have
died, and the total discharged, the number in each
on the 31st of March, 1844, the number to whom
admission was refused, and the average number in
each asylum in each year ; also of the total
expenditure in each asylum in the year,
the total cost per head per annum, the
expenses in furniture, bedding, and linen, the expen-
diture in fixtures, additions, and alterations, work-
men's bills, &c., the total expenditure in clothing,
the total expenditure in salaries and servants' wages,
the total expenditure in food only, the cost per head
per annum for food, the cost per head per week for
food, and the cost per head per day, all calculated
from the average number of patients during the year ;
also of the particulars of each salary, and servants'
wages, and the total.amount of the same for the year;
also of the number admitted into each asylum be-
tween the opening arid the 31st of March, 1844, the
numbers discharged or recovered, the numbers dis-
charged or taken away by their friends as relieved, or
harmless and incurable, or transferred to workhouses
within that period; the number of relapsed cases,
and the number who have died within that period,
and the total number remaining in each asylum on
the 31st of March, 1844. The Hon. Baronet also
moved for similar returns from the Cork lunatic asylum;
and also a return of the number of insane persons in
each workhouse in Ireland, on the 31st day of March,
1844, with the estimated annual expense of each, and
the total in public lunatic asylums and workhouses
in Ireland, on the 31st day of March, 1844.—Ordered.
Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite if he had any objection to lay on the table
of the House the correspondence between the Ame-
rican Minister and the British Government, relative
to the annexation of Texas to the American
Union ? The Right Hon. Gentleman would perceive
that the whole of that transaction took place in con-
sequence of the interposition of Great Britain with
Texas with respect to slavery.
Sir R. PEEL was not prepared to lay on the table
of the House any correspondence with respect to any
treaty which had been signed relating to the annexa-
tion of that country.
Mr. HUME did not want the correspondence re-
lating to a treaty having reference to the annexation
of Texas. What he -wanted was the correspondence
which related to putting down slavery in Texas.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know if it were good po-
licy to publish just at the present moment that
which had been published by another Government,
and which could answer no good purpose? He thought
it objectionable on principle, unless they were pre-
pared to follow up the example which had been set
them by another Government.
DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL.
Sir R. INGLIS wished to get some information on
the order in which the business of the House would
be taken. He was anxious to know when the Dis-
senters' Chapels Bill would be brought on?
Sir R. PEEL said it was impossible for him to
say on what day the Bill would come on. He was
anxious to make as much progress as possible with
the important measure which was to be founded on
the resolutions which he would move that night, viz.,
the Bank Charter Acts Bill. He therefore, thought
that any discussion which might be taken
on the Dissenters' Chapels Bill, should be taken
on the second reading rather than in any other
stage, and he would not take the third reading before
Whitsuntide. With respect to any further arrange-
ments which would be necessary with respect to
Government Bills, he would state them after W hit-
suotide. •
BANK CHARTER
The House then went into Opi.ninlttee on the Bank
of England Charter Acta.-

Mr: B. ESCOTT preserieed a petition, from the in-
habitants of the Cities of London and Westminster,
praying the House to repeal the Currenu
of 1819.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a peiition, from
Birmingham to the same effect. •
Sir H. PEEL said he should be very.unwilllng to
interpose any observations before the commencement
of the discussion upon the resolutionaWhich he should
move that evening, if he did not think it would• be
for the convenience of Members. Who were likely to
take part in that discussion, and for the advantage of
the discussion itself, were he to make ex
planations on some points with respect to which
it was probable questions would be put—points
relating rather to the details than to the general prin-
ciples of the measure. He was sure the House
would bear in mind that it was necessary for her
Majesty's Government to frame their measure, and for
him, as the organ of that Government, to make the
statement which he did on the 6th of May, without the
advantage of communicating with parties whose
opinions on such a question were entitled
to great weight. In his opinion deep and
entire secrecy in all matters relating to
money was absolutely necessary. Making every
concession to the honour anti integrity of individuals
in matters affecting the monetiffkiptefe,Sts of• this
country, the Government must be Contented- with
availing itself of such information as the evidence
taken before Committees and their own experience
might supply. They must not enter into comma-