The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-03 00:00:00

commissioners of local courts that a power over the
goods for debt was quite sufficient, reserving the power
of imprisoning for fraud, or for any other misdemeanour.
The power of issuing writs of capias had never been
possessed by the old county courts nor by local courts
until the middle of the last century, when in a local
Act for a smell debt court in the county
of Midddlesex, the power of imprisonment was given
that had been gradually extended by several local Acts,
but it had never been authorised by any general statute.
One of the Commissioners had stated it as his opinion
that this power of imprisonment ought to be
abolished. Me was willing to admit that for the
benefit and advantage of the labouring classes credit
was indispensable, but he thought the system of
credit, and the recovery of small debts in Scotland was
preferable to that in England. The Hon. Member for
Birmingham had quoted that town as an example, and
had said that for the sake of the working classes them-
selves they ought not to abolish imprisonment
for small debts. Now, he was asked why he, who
had proposed to continue the power of imprisonment for
small debts by the County Courts Bill, should now pro-
pose the abolition of imprisonment for small debts. He
would tell the House the reason which induced him to
consider that this power ought not to be continued for
even six weeks longer, and Birmingham would not he for-
gotten. The House would remember the sensation
which had been created during the present session
by the statements which had been made of the horrors
of the small debt gaol of Birmingham. He had caused
inquiries to be made into the state of various small debt
gaols in the country, and he could not have believed that
such iniquities and cruelties could he suffered to exist in
a Christian country. The Secretary of State had no
control over those prisons, although he might have
them inspected. However much he might be disgusted
with the horrors of those gaols, he was perfectly impo-
tent to remedy the evil. He might recommend, but his
recommendations were treated with neglect if the altera-
tions recommended were attended with expense ;
and he was sure the Hon. Member for Man-
chester, who had objected to hurrying forward this Bill,
would be the very person who would rather sit a month
longer than not remedy these horrors. His attention
had been drawn to the state of the small debt goal in
Birmingham in the month of January last, in conse-
quence of a riot which had taken place in that prison on
Christmas-day. He had sent down an inspector, and
his report contained a statement of horrors which he
could scarcely have believed to have existed—horrors
equal to anything which had been laid open by Howard
—and this in Birmingham had been cited by the
Hon. Gentleman as a case in point why the House
should not consent to the abolition of the power
of imprisonment for small debts. (The Right
Hon. Baronet here read the report in question,
from which it appeared that the prison consisted
of a kitchen and a cellar, situated in a street
in Birmingham, and was for the imprisonment of persons
whose debts were under 51. The day-room for poor
debtors was a scullery, 18 feet by 14, and 7 feet high.
There was a grating on a level with the pavement of the
street, and debtors were stationed there to beg; and not-
withstanding spirits were prohibited, they were handed
through this grating, and the goaler did not dare to in-
terfere, lest he should raise a riot which he would be
powerless to quell. There was one general dormitory in
the attic which was 11 feet by 16, in which were two plat-
forms extended along each side wall, and on them the
prisoners slept ; at one time fifteen persons had slept
together on one of these platforms and eight on the other.)
The reason of this difference was that the prisoner who
had been longest in the gaol was called the king, and
possessed several privileges, one of which was
that he should not be obliged to take more than
seven bedfellows on his platform. No medical
assistance was afforded to the prisoners in cases of sick.
ness ; and they had possessed swords, staves, ecc.,
until the recent riot, when they had been taken from
them. The riot had been occasioned by the practice of
exacting from every prisoner 2s. 6d. on his admission,
under the denomination of " chum-money." He had re-
monstrated with the authorities, and some amendment
had been made, but not to a sufficient extent. But did
the case of Birmingham stand alone ? Far from it. His
attention had been directed to the small debt prison of
Kidderminster, and, on the 15th June he had directed
an inspector to proceed there. From his report it ap-
peared that the prison consisted of one room, twelve
feet by twelve, paved with brick. The room was des-
titute of furniture. There was a bundle of straw
in the middle of it, on which the prisoners slept in their
clothes. There was a yard behind, thirteen feet by
twelve, but it was so badly drained that in wet weather
the prisoners were confined to the room. 'They never
took off their clothes, there was no allowance of soap,
and there were only two small jugs of water allowed per
day for all the prisoners, for washing and drinking ; the
only allowance of food was a quarter of a quartern loaf
to each prisoner.—(Hear, hear.) There was no gaoler;
they were visited by the beadle in the morning and the
evening, and there was no power of procuring assistance
in cases of sudden illness. The shortest time of im-
prisonment in this place was ten days, but a prisoner
might be imprisoned forty days, and again detained
upon a fresh execution.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He would not disgust the House by going into further
details, but he submitted that such a state of things
called for an immediate remedy, and it was much better,
in his opinion, to abolish imprisonment for small debts
than to attempt to remedy the defects of these goals, for
he regarded the principle of the law which allowed im-
prisonment for small debts as indefensible.— (Hear.)
If compensation to gaolers were necessary let compen-
sation be granted, but he trusted the House would not
subject the unhappy debtor for six months longer to
these horrors.
Mr. F. 11. BERKELEY said he had presented a peti-
tion against the Bill, but after the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman he felt that he could not support that
part of the prayer of the petition which asked that the
measure should be delayed.—(Cheers.) He hoped, how-
ever, that some alteration would be made in the 36th and
37th clauses.
The House then resolved itself into Committee.
Clause 1 was agreed to. On clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. SPOONER protested against the abolition of the
power of imprisonment merely on account of the im-
proper state of discipline in small debt gaols. Those
defects might be remedied. The state of the Birmin-
ham gaol was known to the Right Hon. Gentleman in
January.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that four gaols were all that
had yet been examined. He was afraid, that in their
main features, all these small debt gaols were identical.
Mr. WAKLEY thought the system of credit most in-
jurious to the labouring classes. He would be sorry to
delay the Bill a single moment. He had presented a
petition from his constituents against the Bill, but he
should feel bound to support the measure, even if he were
to resign his seat twenty-four hours after.—(Cheers.)
Mr. S. WORTLEY said the Government had not
answered the complaint of the Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham, that the measure ought to have been brought
forward at an earlier period of the session.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was not aware of the extent
of the evil before the end of June.
Mr. BOUVERIE said, that in considering the ques-
tion of delay, they should be careful to put the saddle on
the right horse. He thought great blame was attribu-
table to a high legal functionary in the other House.
Sir J. GRAHAM confessed that he did not under-
stand the charge. Lord Cottenham took one view and
Lord Brougham another, and the Lord Chancellor had
to mediate between them. Higher intellects were never
brought into contact, and he thought the Lord Chan-
cellor was quite right in hearing, evidence before he de-
cided upon the course which he had taken.—(Hear.)
Mr. BOUVERIE said, what he had meant was,
to blame the legal functionary in the other House who
had delayed the first measure introduced in a manner
which its proposer had no reason to expect.
Clause 2 was then agreed to. Clause 3 was postponed.
Clauses 4 to 15 inclusive were agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 24 inclusive were agreed to, with a few
verbal amendments.
Clauses from 25 to 35 were agreed to without dis-
cussion. OR clause 36 being proposed,
Mr. HAWES moved that the following words be
added to the clause :—" Except it shall be made to ap-
pear to the satisfaction of the judge who shall try such
action, such judge being either a judge of one of the
superior courts, or a barrister, attorney, or solicitor, that
such debt was contracted by any manner of fraud or
breach of trust, or that such defendant has parted with
any of his property with a view to defraud his
creditors or any of them, in any of which cases
it shall be lawful for such judge, if he shall think
fit, but not otherwise, to certify the same under his hand,
and thereupon to order that such defendant may be
taken and detained in execution upon such judgment, in
like manner, and for such time as he might have been if
this Act had not been passed."
Sir JAMES GRAHAM asked the Hon. Member to
postpone the amendment, as he intended to introduce a
proviso that would render it unnecessary.
Mr. HAWES said he would certainly adopt the course
suggested.
Mr. SPOONER again objected to the partial effect
of abolishing the power of imprisonment in small debts,
and retaining it with respect to large ones. He was for
carrying out the principle impartially and generally, but
this they could not now be prepared to do. lie hoped
the clause would be postponed.
After some further conversation the clause was
agreed to.
Clauses up to 47 were agreed to without opposition.
Clause 48 was struck out.
The remaining clauses were agreed to.
The Chairman reported progress, and the report was
received, in order that the Bill might be reprinted and
recommitted on Monday, to enable the Government to
introduce the compensation clauses.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM gave notice that he would
move the compensation clauses of the Bill to-morrow
at Twelve o'clock.

COMMON LAW PROCESS (IRELAND) BILL.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A Message from the Lords brought up the Transfer
of Licenses Bill without any amendments, and several
other Bills. They also asked for a Conference on the
Common Law Process Bill, which was agreed to.
The Members appointed to hold the Conference then
left the House, and on their return
Mr. CRIPPS reported to the House that the con-
ference had been attended by the Earl of Delawarr and
certain other Peers, on the part of the House of Lords ;
that their Lordships had stated certain reasons for dis-
senting from the Commons' amendments in one portion
of the Bill, and had agreed to the other amendments.
The Hos. MEMBER then moved that their Lordships'
reasons should be taken into consideration on Tuesday
next.—Agreed to.

CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE wished to know from the
Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he
would postpone the third reading of the Charitable Be-
quests (Ireland) Bill till after Monday, for which day
he understood the third reading was fixed. The reason
why he asked the Bight Hon. J3art. to postpone the