The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

(Hear.) They were dealing now with the bodies and
souls of their fellow-men. They allowed no time, not
even for recreation or education, because the Sunday
was looked to for repose and not instruction. He had
listened to the speech of the Right Hon. l'aronet at the
head of the Government, and the lion. Member for
Clithero, but he had heard nothing from them that did
not apply equally to the existing law as to that proposed
by his Noble Friend the Member for Dorsetshire. The
whole was a question not of principle but degree, and
not that only but of time.—(Hear.) The question must
be carried, and-it did not matter whether it took place
in 1844 or 1846. If there was any error in the conclu-
sions of his Noble Friend, it lay in their hands to rec-
tify it, as the Bill would not take effect till October, 1844,
and it did not attain its minimum till 1846.—(Hear.)
In that interval, if it should appear that any error had
been committed, they would be able to correct it, for
they retained the power in their own hands. It was his
conviction that no such dangerous consequences would
ensue, and he believed that any unfavourable conse-
quences would be more than compensated for by the in-
creased physical comfort of the labouring population.
lie believed that the increase in their physical comforts,
consequent upon the diminution of the hours of labour,
would more than compensate them for the loss of the
few hours' extra pay. It had been stated by his Hon.
Friend, the Member for Pontefract, that the last two
hours of labour must, in the nature of things, be the
most unprofitable; and here he came to the factory sta-
tistics. It appeared that the greater number of accidents
to children occurred during the last two hours. The la-
bourers were exhausted with their toil, and they went
through the last two hours of their work nnconsciously.
There would, therefore, be a diminution of the number
of accidents, in consequence of a diminution of the hours
of labour. They had heard, on high authority, of the
sufferings of the agricultural population. On Monday,
they had been told that even women hail been kept to
hard labour in the fields of England for seven or eight
hours of a winter's day without changing their clothes.
Now he would ask any one to point out in what county
of England the women laboured in the fields for eight
hours of a winter's day ?
An Host. MEMBIR—Not of a winter's day.
Sir R. li. INGLIS— The whole argument was, that
it was during the inclement season of winter. Fur his
part, he believed that the thing was physically impos-
sible. At all exents, he had never heard of it. But
they had not the same power of remedying the suffer-
ings of the agricultural population. It was not politi-
cally possible to redress the sufferings of the agricul-
tural poor as they could the sufferings of the manufac-
turing poor. In the case of the manufacturing poor
they had the power of regulating the hours of labour
by stopping the great machine by which the labour of
all the human accessories was regulated. They had
not the power of regulating the hours of agricultural
labour; and where there was no power there could be
no responsibility. They had the power of regulating
the hours of labour in the manufactories, and therefore
it was their duty to do so.—(Cheers.) He had on
former occasions stated his opinion on this subject, and
he thanked the Committee for the attention with which
they had listened to him.—(Cheers.)
Mr. CoLLETT and Mr. C. BULLER rose together for
the purpose of addressing the Committee, and for some
time neither Hon. Gentlemen would give way. There
were loud calls for Mr. C. Buller. After the lapse of
about a miuute both Hon. Gentlemen sat down, but im-
mediately afterwards both rose together again. There
were loud cries of " Buller," " Buller," " Chair,
Chair," and the greatest uproar and confusion pre-
vailed. Mr. Hawes, who had previously been in com-
munication with Mr. Collett, then advanced to Mr. C.
Buller and said something, in consequence of which Mr.
C. Buller resumed his seat, but the cries of " Buller"
" Buller," still continuing, he rose again and advanced to
the table ; Mr. Collett, however, continued on his legs.
The cries of " Chair, Chair," then became general
throughout the House. and Sir C. Napier addressed some
words to the Chairman, which were inaudible. At
length after a lapse of four minutes, during which time
Mr. Collett and Mr. C. Buller retained their respective
positions, Mr. Collett gave way, and
Mr. C. BULLER proceeded to address the Committee.
He said that her Majesty's Government were going to-
night to adopt the extraordinary step of calling on the
House, on the eighth clause of the Bill, to make the Bill
nonsense by nullifying the vote to which they had come
on Monday.—(Hear, hear.) Now it was the duty of the
Government, before taking such an extraordinary step,
at the earliest possible moment to lay before
them the grounds upon which they called upon
them to adopt such a proceeding.—(Hear, hear.)
He had expected that if the Government had intended
to make the House rescind the vote of Monday night,
that. they would have brought forward some new argu-
ments. but they had brought forward none. They had
left everything in doubt except their determination, if
possible, to rescind the vote of Monday night. He had to
state the grounds upon which he intended to repeat the
vote which he had given on Monday night, and he had
to grapple with the arguments of one Member only who
had risen on the opposite side, and, in doing so, he was
undertaking no easy task, for seldom on a question so
exhausted had he heard a speech containing arguments
of such novelty and such force—(Cheers)—and he could
assure the Hon. Member that, in making that statement,
he was paying no unmeaning compliment ; for he could
assure the Hon. Gentleman that he had put his argu-
ments so ably as to elicit more than one cheer from him-
self (Mr. C. Buller). He had also to grapple with the
speech of his Hon Friend the Member for Sheffield.
That speech was remarkable not so much for the strength
of the arguments as for the strength of the language.—
(Cheers and laughter.) His Hon. Friend seemed most
sensitive to the charges made against those who took the
course which he had taken. He complained of the lan-
guage which had been used regarding those who enter-
tained similar opinions to himself. He complained that
all who voted with him had been described as destitute
of the common feelings of humanity. Now he entirely
acquitted his Hon. Friend of any such charge. He gave
him credit for as much humanity as any lion. Member
who voted on the other side ; but, in return, he asked
his Hon. Friend to give those who voted against him
credit for something like a little common sense.
Those who were going to vote ought to show they did
vote upon principle. If the Noble Lord's proposition
was wrong, and was carried into operation, it would
very seriously interfere with the staple interests of the
country, with the employment of a large portion of the
people, and with the absolute security and maintenance
of millions.—(Hear, hear.) The Legislature must in-
tere notwitstanding. The evil was great, and must be
grappled with—the mischief was frightful in its nature
and extent, and was so acknowledged even by those who
opposed it. The peace and prosperity of the country—
its many institutions, were perilled—and, if the Legis-
lature did not interfere, it must be subdued.—(Hear,
hear.) The old principles of legislation must in
this instance be departed from. He avowed his
willingness to depart from those principles. Now
circumstances had arisen, and they required new re-
medies. The social state had undergone a revolution,
and must, he repeated, be legislated for upon new prin-
ciples. He was prepared to enter into these new prin-
ciples, and to defend them against those who advocated
legislation, which left the people to
apply to that new state
tthe revolution, which the
ost the eithings,
themselves,
mch iipsc
ehl el
vseexos
atendd sdi
nide o 0
course of time had effected.i:(Hear, hear.) He would
briefly state the grounds upon which he formed this opi-
nion. The important social change which had taken place
could be hardly exaggerated; and he would venture to say
that no man, whatever his opinions on this subject might
be, could contemplate the present condition of the people
without amazement and dread. A hundred years ago,
the great mass of the labouring population were agri-
cultural labourers, scattered over the country without
any means of communicating with each other, without
intelligence or the means of acting in concert, without
combination or centralisation ; but they were restrained
by adherence to old institutions, and acted under the
guidance of those whose authority was sanctioned by
hereditary power, and (he felt happy to say) by
hereditary attachment. The towns were thinly popu-
lated ; but the citizens, for the most part; possessed a
comparative degree of intelligence, and were able to
protect themselves. But a new race had arisen within
the last fifty years. Millions of men were collected
together within a small space, for the first time—an
immense competition grew up between unskilled la-
bourers, who worked from the first moment they could
work until they could work no longer.—(lrear, hear.)
The greater part of this population consisted, as he had
already said, of unskilled labourers, which was the cause
of the extraordinary pressure. .'Pages were beaten
down, not by masters, but by competition ; their
numbers -prevented them from combining, and with
all these phenomena together, and without those
influences which formerly bound the population
together, let him ask the House could they
look on this state of things without deep con-
cern?—(Hear, hear.) He would not represent the fac-
tory labourer as crippled or-disabled ; nor would he say
anything offensive to the master manufacturers, for he
believed there were a great many among them who dis-
charged the relations between man and master in a very
becoming manner, and who exhibibited the greatest
benevolence and forethought. No man could look at the
physical condition of the people; and say it was as it
ought to be.—(Llear, hear.) He would confine himself
to one or two great statistical facts. Let them look to
the labourers in Dorsetshire and Wiltshire, who ave-
raged 33 years, and contrast it with the average of life
in the manufacturing districts—in Manchester, for in-
stance, where the average of human life did not exceed
17 years.—(Hear, hear.) He did not say this by way
of attributing blame to the millowners, but he men-
tioned the appalling fact, as imperatively demanding the
interference of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) The
brevity of human life in the manufacturing districts did
not arise from casualties, or from epidemics, but from
the physical condition of the people, from over-exer-
tion, and from causes connected with labour.—(Hear,
hear.) Further than this, the present condition of the
people in those districts must lead to a de-
terioration of' the physical strength and moral habits
of their children.—(Hear.) The mere temperature
in these factories was most injurious to the human con-
stitution. He had been visiting some of the factories
in the north of England a few months ago, and he found
the temperature there most inconvenient and un-
pleasant to himself. It was an Indian, a tropical climate,
in those factories, and could not but be injurious to the
human frame. On passing through one of these facto-
ries, he was greatly surprised at not seeing any males—
they were all females ; and Lord Ashley had justly
observed upon the order of things being reversed in these
districts ; that the women and children did the work of
the men, who subsisted in idleness on their labours. The
relations which bound the higher and lower orders toge-
ther in other parts of the country, did not exist there.
They were without religious or literary instruction, and
their condition especially called for the interference of
the landed proprietors of England, whose especial duty
it was to interfere, Mr. M'Culloch was no sentimen-
talist, and yet he shook his bead gravely at the present
state of things, and said they required a change. In
such a state of circumstances, it was the

positive duty of the Legislature to interfere, and
they would be neglecting their duty if they did not.
Now, what was' the state of things in Lancashire?
What did Mr. Horner say? Why he said that between
twenty and thirty young men were employed as piecers,
at wages from Bs. to 9s. a week, while in the same mill
there were girls of eighteen years of age employed at
1 ls. and 12s. a week.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
had shown that more girls were employed than male
adults, and it was therefore clear that they would have
a large portion of the adult population to fall back upon.
He did not know what the Hon. Gentleman opposite
meant when he asked whether this was to be a Ten
Hours' Bill, and then went on to argue that they could
increase the labour of the children in the same propor-
tion that they diminished that of the men. A great
many charges had been brought against the supporters
of the Noble Lord's motion, but, for Heaven's sake, let
them only deal with those charges which could
be fairly brought against them. He perfectly admitted
that the argument used on the other side was perfectly
sound that humanity should give way to the commercial
and financial interest of the country. Of course it stood
to reason that it would be unwise to shorten the hours of
labour with the certainty of depriving; the operative po-
pulation of employment altogether. Now, how did the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite show that this proposition
would have that effect? In the first place they made it
out by a great many very vague appeals to their fears.
They said they were embarking in a new course—it was
very dangerous, they said; but they gave no other reason
for their opposition to the proposition. He (Mr. Buller)
had always found that such alarms as these were started
when the interests of certain parties were affected. It
had always been said when any particular change
was going to be made, that if another feather were to
be placed on the particular branch of trade which was
to be affected, it would be broken down. He recollected
that this was said at the time of the inquiries into the
condition of the slaves.—(Cheers.) They were always
told that a perfect paradise existed in the West Indies.
He (Mr. Buller) was perfectly ready to yield in opinion
to practical men, and to her Majesty's Government, upon
whom great responsibility was thrown. It was, however,
upon one condition, which was, that they should give up
all shaking of the head, and come down with a plain ar-
gument upon the subject. What was the argument usel
by the Right lion. Baronet, in terrorem, as it were, for
the purpose of scaring the supporters of the Noble Lord?
The Right Hon. Baronet said " How far will you go,
if you interfere with the factories—what will you do
with the cotton manufactories and others?" Now, he
(Mr. Buller) would answer the Right Hon. Baronet.
He would, first of all, tell him what he would do with
the principle. He would try it in every instance.—
(Cheers.) He would carry the principle of interference
just to that point where it was impossible to go further.
—(Cheers and laughter.) Some of his friends laughed at
him. Should he state the proposition in converso. He
should not go further than the point to go beyond
which would not benefit the operatives. Why, after all,
the Government did this themselves.—(Hear, hear.)
They limited their interference to twelve hours in the
factories.— (Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the in-
stance the Right Hon. Baronet had mentioned of the
screw-makers. He (Mr. Buller) did not know the par-
ticular circumstances of thitt trade ; and he could not, of
course, pledge himself without inquiring into them; but
he would say that he saw no earthly reason why, if they
legislated for the factories, they should not legislate for
them also. The Right Hon. Baronet mentioned the
case of domestic servants. Now, in the first place, he
(Mr. Buller) did not believe that that was a
class that was very much over-worked.(Hear.)
He did not know how Honourable Gentlemen opposite
used their servants, but he did not think that generally
they were very much overworked.—(Laughter.) But,
even supposing that they were, no arrangement could
be made with respect to them, for any interference in
such a case would do more herrn than good. Then there
was another class—that of the agricultural labourers.
He did not think that, if they took the whole mass of
the agricultural labourers of the country, they would
complain of being overworked. Although they were
badly treated in other respects, yet they did not com-
plain of overwork. The Right Hon. Baronet mentioned
the harvest, and he said they worked a great many
hours during the harvest. Why, who would complain
of overwork in the factories if it were confined to three
weeks, and if the custom of the country iequired it ?
lie did not think thit the arguments of the Right Hon.
Baronet ought to scare them from their purpose.—
(Cheers.) One of the wisest men in the world once
remarked, " The slothful man said there is a lion in the
street." Now he (Mr. Buller) must say, that in that
question there had been most extraordinary lions.—
(Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet said,
for " God sake do not go that way, or the ton will be
sure to be at you."---(Laughter.) He would now glance
at the arguments of the two Right Hon. Gentlemen, the
Secretary for the Home Department and the First Lord
of the Treasury. Now he thought he could set the two
Right Hon. Gentlemen by the ears. It was impossible
that the arguments used by each could stand together.
One Right Hon. Gentleman said, " Don't interfere in
this matter—it is our export trade, and the foreigner
is competing with you." He (Mr. Buller) hoped this
would be recollected in the debate on the corn-laws.
The Right Hon. Baronet dreaded the competition with
the foreigner. " The foreigner," he said, will compete
with you, for you will have to raise your prices." The
other Right Hon. Gentleman referred to Mr. Horner,
and proved that nothing of the kind would happen, as
the price depended on the foreign market, and therefore
the prices would be kept low, to preseve the foreign
market. Let him (Mr. Buller) take first the argument
of the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Trea-
sury. His argument was the most formidable, after all.
They could not over-state the importance of the export
trade. The Right Hon. Baronet dreaded the increase
of prices. What was that increase to be ? Some
calculation might be made. Surely those who
apprehended all this danger, could shadow to
themselves the amount of the increase. Mr.
Kenworthy, a gentleman himself connected largely
with the manufacturing interests, had made a calculation
to show the sum which was expended in the manufac-
ture of a yard of cloth. It appeared that this sum was
threepence per yard at present. Now, a common rule-of-
three sum would prove that, by a limitation of labourto
nine hours, instead of its present duration, there would
be a loss of only seven-sixteenths of a penny; and if to a
Ten Hours' Bill, it would be five- sixteenths.—( Hear, hear,
and cheers.) Yet the Right Hon. Baronet came forward,
and said this Bill would be most ruinous to the manu-
facturers, and that, in consequence of the cotton-yarn
trade of this country, they would be unable to compete
with foreigners. He would now refer to a simple
financial fact in connection with taxation, and he re-
gretted to see that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
not announced in his last budget that there was any in-
tention of altering this duty—he alluded to the duty on
raw cotton—(Loud cheers)—that raw material of which
those manufactures were composed. This duty was
5. 16ths of a penny; so that they who railed against this
measure, and said it would ruin the manufacturers of
this country, had the remedy in their own hands without
injury to any particular interest, by reducing it 2-16ths
of a penny---(Cheers)—or to reduce it altogether.—
(Renewed cheering.) If they thought that this tended
to injure the manufacturers, her Majesty's Government
had the power of applying the acquired remedy. The
Right Hon. Baronet, he thought, was much mistaken in
saying that all the injury would fall upon the operatives,
and he made this 'assertion from premises drawn from
statements in Mr. Horner's work. He (Mr. C. Buller)
could not at all understand the arguments of the Right
Hon. Baronet. The Hon Gentleman then read the ex-
tract alluded to, and proceeded to say that the change
made in the amount of wages would be only a diminution
of one-tenth ; but the same amount of cotton would be
manufactured as before, for it would not be that the
quantity of work to be performed would be reduced, but
that a greater number of hands would be employed ;
and the only inference which he could draw from that
passage from the work of Mr. Horner was, that there
would bT a reduction in the amount of labourers' wages
of about 30/. in every 400/. now expended. Honourable
Members on the Opposition side of the House had been
taunted with endeavouring to prove that a low rate of
wages would increase domestic comforts and happiness ;
now, in reply to this taunt, he would ask, did the com-
forts of the people bear a proportion to the amount of'
the weekly income? He had seen much of the country,
and he would beg to call the attention of the House to
the state of the population in the collieries. Now, in
these localities, although the men receive very high
wages, yet, surely, no person could say that domestic
comfort was the result of this ? He saw numbers of the
labourers, who had not half the wages of the colliers,
who were much more comfortable ; and he thought, even
were it to lessen—which he denied—the wages of the ope-
ratives, yet the increase of domestic comfort consequent
upon the women having more time to devote to their
household duties would be more than an equivalent for
any loss of wages which might possibly accrue from
this measure. The argnment he must grapple with
was one that had frequently been thrown out, had been
frequently used, had been circulated among the gentle-
men opposite with some assiduity, and probably with
some success. It was said that the corn-laws were
mixed up with this question.—(Loud cheers.)' It was
said, if we venture to do this—if we thus interfere with
manufactures—if we lay these fresh restraints on them,
how will a paternal Government be able to resist the
demand of the people for food?—(Cheers.) How shall
we next year stand by the sliding scale ?—(Cheers.)
The members of the League, it is said, are cunning
men ; the Bill is doing the work of tho League.—
(Cheers and laughter.) He could not say there
was not something in that.—(Cheers;) It was not
his business to defend the corn-laws—(Cheers)—
nor should he do so ; but he told them, after all that he
had mentioned a much simpler remedy. There was no
protective duty on raw cotton.—(Cheers.) There were
no Anti-League leagues with respect to that article.—
(Cheers and laughter.) But, suppose the House
rescinded its vote, the public would know who
voted—(Loud cheers)—the public would know who
changed their votes—(Cheers)—the public would know
who stayed away—(Loud cheers and laughter)—the
public would know where " the whip" had been ap-
plied—(Cheers)—as well as they would know those who
had changed, those who were absent, and those who were
suddenly present.—(Cheers and. laughter.) Look how
w frombo
m he whose
believed
intelligent pths
at theyand
humanity
thinking would dashan
the decision of Monday night had been received ;
then let the friends of the corn-laws tell him,
ow could these people reconcile
those who sacrificed every consideration of policy to the
Thheir opinion ? Would it not be
maintaining of those laws—let them. tell him, what the
the corn-laws, if intelligent men
massesthe
conduct
t onefh
nrdo:
etufl
together—how
massgaty hope—whatvtoehetfs
or
l
should see that it was for the maintenance of these laws
the country gentlemen were ready to sacrifice the edu-
cation, the morality, the social relations, and the phy-
sical well-being of the people of England ? Let
them tell him what could be the feelings
of the- operatives when carrying on their la-
bour for those two other hours of the day,

and working hard at their task, when they were com-
pelled to say, we are not working for our bread, but to
pay the landlords their bread-tax ?—(Cheers.) He
gave them the best advice for their own interest.
—(Hear, hear.) If they really wanted to maintain the
corn-laws let them maintain them as acorn-law only.

But let them not make the people of this country be-
lieve that those laws were linked with all the abuses and

all the evils they were compelled to suffer. lie had done
with the arguments he intended to use on this subject;
he had stated those arguments in a manner that had
satisfied his own mind, but he was not sure
that he had been as able to satisfy others,
though there might be some who would perhaps
think he had made out a tolerably plausible case.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) It now remained to be seen
what the House would do on this most important ques-

tion.—(Hear, hear.) The Government had taken a
course which, whatever might be the right or wrong of
the question, would always be a dangerous and impolitic
one. It might give rise to feelings that never ought to
he excited—feelings that might long outlive the decision
itself. But he was prepared to give the Government
credit for the honesty of the conviction under which they
had been bold enough to encounter such a load of oblo-
quy and unpopularity-. Would those lion. Gentlemen
who voted for this amendment the other night—would
they be less bold than they were?—(Great cheering.)
Would they have less confidence in their cause—would
they shrink from their duty?—(Cheers.) They had a
gratifying division the other night.—(Hear.) Let them
say what they would, they could not deny that they had
men of all parties, of all interests, united in a great pub-
Hs. cause.—(Cheers.) Let the same feeling that ani-
mated them then, animate the gentlemen now, so that
neither absence nor change should affect that bold course
of humanity and sound principle which the House had
done itself honour by adopting.—(The Hon. Gentleman
sat down amid loud cheering.)

Lord FRANCIS EGERTON rose amidst much confusion,
:o address the House. lie said he did not intend so much to

join in the discussion as to rescue a constituent of his from an
accidental misrepresentation which had been made with respect
to him by the Noble Lord who had brought this question before
the House. In the course of his observations he had read a
statement of the ages of operatives employed in factories, and
alleged that Mr. Peter Holroyd had refused employment to a
man in his factory because he was 43 years of age, and there-
fore, too old for the occupation. He could contradict the state-
ment ; such an event had never occurred. Having said this
much on the point, he would not trespass any longer on the
indulgence of the House at this late hour.—(Cries of " Di-
vide, divide."
Mr. COLLETT moved that the Chairman report progress.
—( Loud cries of" Divide, divide," " Go on, go on," " Ad-
journ, adjourn," in the midst of which—
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE asked whether the Committee Was
disposed at once to adjourn ?—(" Oh, oh.") He wished to
know whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to go to a division without some expre•ssion of opinion on
their parts—without alleging some reasons for the course they
would pursue ?—( Hear, hear.) What the Hon. Member for
Liskeard said was perfectly true, that the Government were
sanguine of substituting twelve hours for ten, and reversing the
decision which the House had come to on the other evening.
He could only say that the people of the country were
prepared for any injustice and inconsistency on the part of the
House and the Government.—( Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.)
When they were called on to commit this gross inconsistency
they had a right to know what were the sentiments of her Ma-
jesty's Government. If they reversed their former decision it
would create great consternation amongst the working-classes
of the manufacturing districts —( Cheers.) The Honourable
Member for Sheffield said that he had no fear of perilling
his seat by the vote he gave. He (Mr. Duncombe)
thought he would not say so if the operatives possessed
the franchise. He (Mr. Duncombe) had presented a petition
to the House, signed by 3,000,000 of the working classes of
the country, and one of the grievances of which they com-
plained was the excessive toil which they were obliged to
undergo to enable them to live. The Noble Lord the Member
for Dorsetshire had brought forward this grievance, and they
decided that it ought to be redressed.—(Hear, hear.) The
House gave ihe subject its best consideration, arid divided upon
it twice. They might disguise the question as they would,
but the country looked upon it as a question between avarice
and humanity—between an insatiable thirst for gain and mo-
rality.—(Cheers.) This was called a spurious humanity, but
it was that humanity which, as had been truly said by the Hon.
Member for Liskeard—which obtained negro emancipation, and
forced the lash from the hand of the slave-drtver.—(Cheers.)
And it was that spurious humanity which would set free the
white slaves of this country.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
It was a question which could not be long de-
layed, and it was well known in the manufacturing
districts, that it would ameliorate the condition, social and
moral, of the working classes.—( Hear, hear.) As far, there-
fore, as his individual vote was concerned, it was very much at
the Noble Lord's service.
Sir J. GRAHAM rose amidst loud cries of "
divide," responded to by cries of " Go on, go en." The
Right Hon. Baronet said, if it was the pleasure of the House
to go to a division that evening—(Cheers)---he certainly
wished to address them very shortly.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. HIN DLEY moved the adjournment of the debate.—
( Cries of " No, no," and confusion.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said, as he was in possession
.of the
House, he should certainly avail himself of the opportunity of
making a few observations. If he were of opinion, with the
Member for Finsbury, that the social and physical improve-
ment of the working classes in the manufacturing districts
would really be advanced by the adoption of the proposal of the
Noble Lord, no person in that House would more willingly ac-
cede to it than himself; but it was because they had arrived at
the opposite conclusion that he felt it his duty to persevere in
his opposition to that proposal.—(Cheers.) Notwitstanding
the threat of the Honourable Member for Pontefract
that her Majesty would be addressed by that House, in
an address expressive of disapprobation of the Govern-
ment—notwithstanding the haughty contempt of the
Noble Lord the Member for Newark, and the threat
that great convulsions would come, unless the motion of the
Noble Lord was carried—notwithstanding the taunt, he must
say, not a very friendly one, of the Hon. kiember for the
University of Oxford—notwithstanding the accustomed jeers
of the Hon. Member fur Liskeard—he was bound to say that,
considering all the circumstances of the case, he had never
come to a less hesitating conclusion than that at which he had
arrived on this occasion—namely, that it was his imperative
duty to take the sense of the House against the proposal of the
Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire.—(Cheers.) With
regard to surprise, he must say that he had endea-
voured to avoid as far as possible any such charge,
by stating to the Committee, immediately after its
decision, what course it was his intention to pur-
sue. It was necessary that he should explain to the
Committee why he had adopted such an unusual course. In
the first place lie was taken by surprise by the result of the
former division. He was taken by surprise on finding himself
opposed to the Noble Lord the Member for London, and seve-
ral other members of the late Government. He (Sir James
Graham), having, on several occasions, in the Government
of 1833, and as late as 1839, when, in opposition, given his
cordial and strenuous support to the very course which her
Majesty's advisers were now pursuing.—( Hear, hear.) He
had thought it necessary, considering the very great interests
at stake, that time should be given for public opinion to
operate upon the proceedings of that House. The Noble Lord
the Member for London had on the last occasion rested his
vote very much on the speech of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Leeds.--( Hear, hear.) A very important declaration had
been made on that occasion by his Hon. Friend. He stated
that 300 master manufacturers in the West Riding of York-
shire, were favourable to the proposition of the Noble Lord, and
that thirty-three master manufacturers in the city which he
represented, had come to a similar conclusion.—( hear, hear.)
Now, as that statement was calculated to produce a great im-
pression on the House, it was of the last importance that her
Majesty's Ministers should ascertain what was the opinion
of that great manufacturing city, and of the cot-
ton district of Manchester. Now he spoke in the
presence of his Honourable Friend who had formed part
of a deputation from the flax manufacturers of Leeds, headed
by Mr. Marshall ; and that deputation stated that a Ten
hours' Bill would be fatal to their interests.— ( Hear, hear,)
There was a great division among the woollen manufactures, but
it was understood they would consent to an Eleven Hours' Bill,
though the mijority had insuperable objections to a Ten
Hours' B 11. But what was far more important, what were
the communications which lie (Sir J. Graham) had received
from the great manufacturing districts of Lancashire ? It
would be impertinent in him, at that late hour, to occupy the
Committee by going over all the statements which he had
received, and of which the substance was already familiar to
the House. But he would briefly state what had been com-
municated to him from that great commercial interest. He
had this day received a deputation of eight or ten gentlemen,
employing 10,000 workmen, and representing 140 firms in Lan-
cashire—( Hear, hear)—and the summary of their opinions
was this : that 129 earnestly entreated the Government not to
agree to the proposition of the Noble Lord, as to any reduction
of the hours of labour below twelve. Seven were in favour of
eleven hours, and the remaining four were in favour of ten
hours.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Liskeard asked for
fresh arguments and reasoning to induce the Committee to re.
consider its decision. Nov he ( Sir J. Graham) was obliged
to admit that his powers of reasoning were so imperfect, that
he was not able to give any fresh arguments; but all subse-
quent consideration led him to the conclusion, that beyond all
doubt the proposition of the Noble Lord would be fatal to those
whose welfare he had at heart, and whose interest he had so
ably and consistently espoused.—( Hear, hear.) In the first
place it would lead to a diminution of wages. The chairman
of the Factories Deputation, now in London, admitted that he
was not very sanguine that a reduction of wages would not be
the consequence of the reduction of time.—(Cheers from Mr.
Ferrand.) The Hon. Member for Knaresborough cheered.—
( Renewed cheers from Mr. Ferrand.) Notwithstanding that
cheer, he would say that he was satisfied that an early and large
reduction of wages would be the necessary consequence of the
Noble Lord's proposition..—(Bear, hear.) He was convinced
that the disappointment would be most poignant, and he would
make any sacrifice rather than be a party to the preparing of
such disappointment as he clearly foresaw must be the result of
the Noble Lord's proposition.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. FERRAND.—Give us a trial.—( Laughter. )
Sir J. GRAHAM said, there were many experiments of
which the result might be very doubtful ; but let the issue be
what it might be, the good, if good it were, might be but
small ; but the evil, if evil, was not to be repaired, and might
go on for ever, with a velocity impossible to check,
and an accumulation impossible to reduce.--(Cheers.)
He entreated the Committee to remember the declare-
tion of the Hon. Member for Oldham—the honest, faith-
ful, and persevering coadjutor of the Noble Lord—that the
limitation to ten hours was not sufficient, and that he would
himself persevere until he attained an Eight Hours' Bill —,
(Hear.) Was this their settlement ?—opinion
was Hear.) His
was this, that if our manufacturers, with their expensive ma-
chinery, were to be placed under such an arrangement as
this, in competition with foreign countries—with Austria,
France, Switzerland, and Belgium—the proposition was to
limit the labour of the English operative to sixty hours a week,
whereas in those other countries, they worked eighty-four
hours a week—the effect would be ultimately to drive British
manufactures out of the foreign market. But it was said
that the Noble Lord's proposition would not be brought into
operation in its full extent at once, that the limitation in the
beginning should be to eleven hours—and that in two
years the ten hours' system should came into opes
ration. Now, he should say, that if the system was to bo
adopted at all, it should be adopted at once. There existed
at present many opportunities and many inducements for
transferring our manufactures to foreign countries. What
would be the effect of our restricting our operatives to certain
hours of labour, when they had to contend with other countries
where there was no limitation as to hours of labour ? It was
true that in France there was a law to regulate the hours of
labour, but it was totally ineffectual from the want of a
system of inspection ; and there was a firm on
the confines of Switzerland, under which the people
were employed fourteen and sixteen hours a-day.
In America, next to Belgium, our greatest rival, there was 'le
limitation upon the hours of labour. The inevitable effect of
the Bill would be to drive away all our best machinery, and
with it ultimately our capital would follow, and seek a profit.
able employment in other lands. And what, then, would be
the effect on the immense masses of our labouring people when,
machinery and capital being gone, the demand for labour
should cease ? had every respect for the statements