The Sun.
London, England, 1810-06-14 00:00:00

s eIIT Tl/4
.%J

'ENCE .

likely to continue. These things cannot long re-i
roaie i i their resent state. The Noble Earl itext
adv,eeed to the manner in which the claims of the
Catholics Batt been treated, and observed, that wh
l:e the absolute necessity of uniting al the •01'-:e1-,,"
of the country in opposition to the ellensy, v-e we: L.
dispiriting those .from whom we 'night expect
most effectual support, and exp msing to attack Chet
part of the British Islands which was most vulnm
and that at a time when the enemy might get posses-
sites of points from which it tniglit be most !ortnida,
bly and effectually assailed. Tot he necessity at some
reforms in the publiC Offices, and even in the Cue •
stitution, he had also to call the attention of their
Lordships. Much certeitily might be done in the
reduction of useless offices ; he was not, howevel,
for doing all away, but for proceeding gradually and
soberly. Above all, at a time when cite peop!e were
bowed .down under the weight of taxes, he thoug!•t
they oueht not so be hut t by obnoxious-appointments
to such offices; yet appointments hadeakee lately
place which must be extremely grating to their feel-
jogs ; and, when opportunities occureeJ of abolish-
,ing. these offices, and making them the rewards efs••
public merit, these opportie ities were not im-
proved, but a systems) pursued most galling to the feel-
ings of the country, and the most hostile to every a:-
tempt at the redeCtioo of einecures„ &c. Next to a
reform in the expenditure, some degree was :'so a;-
-gently called for in what was closely connecied wit ti
the Constitution. In this we should be •gclidkl V' •
the Constitution itself. Itt such changes, 'latest!,
we should proceed with the greatest care, the neee
deliberate circumspection. Ou this mdst important
subject he had bestowed the utmost attention fin
twenty years, and though his °pillions might in that
period have untlergotie some change, yet time change
was-not material. •It was-still his sincere opinieo
that much good would arise from a gradual and sets r
reform in the Constitution of the House of Coto-
mons. It was no ea-y maiterto speak of the exist-
epee of abuses in the other- House; but it w,as a •
matter that conterned them all, and he must con-
tinue convinced that by a judicious applicaton cf
•
-Cainiot4 cone6tives, dl:fet:ts might be remedied
which .were acknowledged to have given much scat--
dal to the Public. Such a retiorne should still have
his best support. -To theoretic schemes-he ever had
been and ever would be :a detetnened:enemy ; and
would never listen to any but what proceeded op
the ground of radical utility. In this he was sup-
ported by the authority of Mr. Fox, and of the
ableSt statesman of his day. The Noble Earl thee
entered into an exposition and defence of the prin-
ciples of the Society of " The Friends of the Peo-
ple," and denied that they ever held any that. Lad
riot for their ohjed a reform purely practmcol, and
drawn from the spirit of the Constitution itself.—
These were his principles iii I eee, and to these_
principles he would still adhere.. He must now di--
claim, however, all cunneelion and intercourse wen
men, as he did then, who, se ith reform iii their
mouths, aimed at wild and desperate 'innovations.
Another topic lied of late been very generally dis-
cussed—he means the privileges of Parliament, iker.
ticularly of the other House. That was, however,
a question into which, for many reasons, he should
not enter in detail. Hewoukhonlygenerally ob-
serve, that these privileges depended on public' uti-
lity ; . and when they ceased to be Ao, their existeuce.
was unfit, and their exercise unjust. In their gt•-
neral- effeet, however, they were wholesome and
useful, and-had the same foundation as ourreentupe
law. On them depended the freedom of delibera-
tion, in which the people were vitally concernee ;
and whatever was calcutated to interfere %%nil that
'freedom was consequently against the public goed.
Even. when these privikges were carried to the ex--
tent of imprisonment, they were still exerted fur
the public good and for the security of the.
people. -It was not_ from the Crown only they had
to prote& the people, but also from those persons
'who would excite popular resentment against Par-
liament. It was by means of those privileges only,
that the Parliament could resist the
Civiurn ardor prava jubentium.
Here again he had with him the authority not only of
Mr. Fox, but of Mr. Pitt, who perhaus never agreed
together on atiy other point than ,the necessity
maintaining the privileges of Parlaiment. He knew
that this dottrine might now be utteopular.
certainly loved popularity ; but to. popularity he-
he
should never sacrifice his duty. He was. time more
determined to pursue that libe,sas he obserte.hpopu-
larity was often the reward of men the 1110S1 Lyise •
and unprincipled ; that it embraced them as favou--
rues, with a levity 4nd,caprice not more,retnarkkie
than that of fortutfe. Should unpopularity belle;
fete; he should console himself with the refleet:', n
that it was also the fate of much greater men, in
humble imitation of whom, he would persist its doing
what he conceived to b • right;.although for the mo-
ment it might be unpopular. Lord Grey then con- •
eluded with moving an address.. to his Majest, ,
which included all the topics at his speech, and ‘elfico
arraigned the conduct of Ministers as rash and impo-
litic.
" The Earl of LI'VERPtOL commenced by obsem %dog'
the Noble Lord's speech had embraced a verh.ry of
topics, each of which would of itself have been effi-
cient for the consideration of one evening. He eel.
taot blame hieconduat in so bringing forward the
statements to which he alluded ; situated as he was,
arid et such a late period of the Session, it ~light
perfeCtlyeatural for the.. Noble Lord, or indeed for
any I;xf..e else, feeling as he did, so to do. --fie h 0,4.•
ever, coilid riot think that what he had advanced ,
was intended to be submitted as a plan fur tie adop-
tion of the House. He conceived, it Was rattier in.
tended by the Noble Lord to pass for .his own inch-
vidual protest, es it all the opinions expressed hy the
Noble Lord were well founded (and he trusted lie
should prove that a great many of them were not),
still he could not expe& that the House would C.c.
cide un questions of so much isupertanse, witheum,

!'~~

having some previonS notice given on the subje.q..—
The. opieions of that Noble Lord, 'he, however, ad-
mitted at dl times and on all occasions had great
weight, and were entitled to full cansiderat ion, and
he should therefispre proceed to comment on them.
He proposed to speak of the •subjed.s which • Ind
mile') under di,cussion, not 'in the order in which
they had beery- t ea tett -try thr-Nrbie -Lord, brit wish-
ing to.speak of tho,e •wlrieti were yet fresh in the
memory of their Lordships, he should first advert to
those topics touChed upon in the hitter part of the
Noblti ,Lord's. speech:- He could net hut' exf)resS
the most entirtesatisfaetion Ott the sentiments express-:.
ed by his Lordship on one 4reet.tion which :had of
late much agitated the,nublic mind—that•concern-
lug the privileges of -Parliament,• He admitted the'
full'forCe olltiS opinion en that subject, most perfect-'
ly'agreeing-with him that it was oecessaity;- for the
gdod'ol-the Public that Parliament should be 'in pus-
scsiion -of4the, privileges to •whieli they had laid
c -They were necessary and v ssential to the pro
per discharge of their fintdiens, as nothing could be
of more iMportance to the nation tient that their re- •
pr .seutatives should/be preserved trot being intimi-
dated by menace • and by the drealof insult:4nm) a
pioper and conscientious disco,itee of their,dirty.,--,
Of the evil effetts of this the Noble Lord had even
them several illifstratiens, but, a must instructive
examle was furnished by the Ilevolution in France,
of what might he expected from- the dtlibeeoious of
an assembly. The buy then formed,' and cap_
jug_ the nselt es ''t he Constituents of the -Penple,"
h. d he en thTscirctimstanced'i the iuonsequence was,
bent:4 too 11111C11 under the influence 01!11epopoiace,
though they bdasted some ,men .of virtue toe
lent among them, eery .chance of sOcceSs
by the manner in- •erhich -their 4ibefatidn.s*-wire'
.condueted, threith fear of ,b-ei7oin'etety nupnpulaie—
He perfectly agreed with-the Noble Lord as
right to- the privileges they , Not drily' had:
they been titers 'from' time immemorial,' a pretty
strong argument in their favOur----not only hail they
been supptirted by the' most,illusirionA of oat' pa..
trio's, another pretty strong-, orgument‘in their fa-
favour—not only'did it a, pear that oar liberties had
fieuristred and
,expanded under them, which. was
also a prt-tty strong argument in their behalf, but
they naforaity grew out, of the deliberations of •such
an asSemni, and were necessary to its very evi•t-
eiece for any efficient purpbseS. The trial by Jury
was not of itself sufficient to secure the rights of the
subject. In the reign of Charles If. in that of Hen-
ry VI f I. and. at some of the -Worst perititi-of 'our
history, trial by Jury had been still preserved, though
the subjed .had been grievonslyoppressede Statiog
this to their-Lordships; he was tar, very far Ifoin un-
dervaluing trial by Jury,- but he duniended that trial
by Jury afforded no adequate
,i.:curity for •the tubiic
without those priVileges: of Parliament. No lan's,
bosrever Wise and jtist---40 jurisdi6tion•whatever,
could alone give sufficient security' to the subject
without .A somethingbehind-s-.Or in fatc,t above them
.--e-without aconstnntlyr vigilant and ccr.trouling-Por-
liament. He.was sorry that he coald•mq a ree with
the otherparts of the Noble load's speech, as be did
with this. On the, Stlbjea of Retorin, Lie -cookl.not
but express surprise that the Noble Lord's
semj-
meats should remain the same as they were -tiventy
years age; Seeing ctrcurristancts were so materially
changed within that peliod. That ri.tithely and salutary
Itettirth had at all times a claim to approbation could
pot be .dented. If the Noble
,Losd meant/ to say. that
t:me 'present Ministers syvematically -resisted such a
Reform, the experience of their Lordships must re-
' flte'the charge'. They had tiniformly nianifesteita
disposition fatiourable to such a heft'' in: Not •one
year, hot-one Session -had elapsed without a remedy
bring applied to some piuetical evil. if remedies
had not been attempted to be applied in 'some in-
stencei. where -complaints. were made, • it was' be-
cquSe-those things that were--in such, cases coin-.
plained of as grievances and evils, u hen examined
were not considered to be such. • AS-to the general
theorY Of Reforria, AO far was he from thinking
that If the subject were taken up as proposed e;se-
. whie, terletrinn of 'bias public expellees .would
plaee; that lie did bot beshate.• to predict that
In s 'Cane a great- additi'al would be made to
the *rutilic e;Cendn tire. It was true liatethe King's
Xie~ ;rue had been increased,it was- true that sof-
*bees wer6 inul,iplied 'And 'salaries augmented, but
e w ;shed their .I.4prdships to look baCk toformer
to pertbdssat Which every thing was sop-
posed to be sOlnuch Lofer, 31.10- cootriist ihe present
Civil List ..with that of oth,r reigns. -The Civil
List of N-yAi 700;000.1. and omi-tegolat-
ta. That of Queen Anne and George. I
700,000 L
- and Unregulated. Cy. orge.., 11. had 800;0001. -e 'd
unregniatea. These sums, if th,t pat.' .b the He-
itt,liti'iry States were to be male up by the country.
the CiVil List at pres-nt amonuts 'to 05n,0001. and
it was to b/ obServed that Was regulated irk all its
•pitts. Blackskone had stated the rev, line of the
Crown' t 6 be es le* as it Ought to he, or as it could
be' to ti:a1171All its 'dignity. He would ask any man
Who would lOok hack and like Otto his cons:dela-
'lion all. the contingencies a:-.canhog tne depreci-
jniou of money, --&c. if 950,0,(lol. gt. the .present
day bore any thing like • a proportion, to the
100;0001. which ,'vac the civil esantisliteent in •the
ii i e William,! Or to the ii.uu,cool, granted
to George ti,e second ?' Ministets had no-0 jeCttou
to an .cconoinical'Arform. it there were grietanees-
'WKicb calledi 'R
for such a eform, l'-t the Noble Lord
. •- •
&tate them, -.lnd a pricti'cal remedy sould ue
Ide was however' averse to a sweephig indefinite
Thee'try of refoiifr. -Whate‘ei 01114 by said of
the multiplied expellees of t e S, tar, he ainceie-
iy believed that there mitre wit, a. rich and pros-
per..us cow:try:ll)e civil govettanent of which was
bondocted at 33 &41petice so CompioatiVely
hied made. inquifies into the ei‘pet.ces of the civil
GOvertimeot of Ainerica, Ana thULI,II. Atnerce-a, was
republie, the of perhaps
a'thira part Of the population-ut 12.:itish
ysl• abet though the consumption of articles of
luxury could. 'not be vtly gr9iii, he.. ttoluid, the,
4..”ls'ecicvs attending the civil goveronient amount-
ed -nearly to 800,0001. 'and that for a ,eoun-
p-y where the pOpulatio) did not e,,eeed 6,900,000
lier!.ixes, 'alio Where mtichl,ss property was to be
proreeted than that protected by toe British' Govern-
font, greatly exCeo,Ted :in proportion the expenee's
of th'e EngliO.Civil List. As to-the represeutattof?,
b; the people in l'arliainente. he -would sat, fie be-
t L'ed net er•wits a iterc.j.od tai our history when
it was let4unetival ; that t was oneritial theory, he
uuld adttit--; but that 01z:thole it,equality he regard-

eel as one. of OA greatest ?.r.lvantrigen tinr C ,nsti-
tution. 11,11-, Burke had pit)le-sed to t)e of
a similar opinion, at4isscri.l;nol it lie 11:4 I cirb!m-
s'ancewhich made tbe,H pof Co:nmons nat it
.was. It they were to erilre.,vour to give it a theo-
retic equality, in the rs-t phice they could nev,..r
know where to stop, and he-believed it would fin my
tend "rol Ife' des : LreaMil of the', whole sy
princi,4e 'on which Parl ameot had beets
of acting for. some years past, was
.in, his opinion
that of sound policy.. Th,iy had gone on t.httsysent
of remedyitigpraLiiCal eves, instead of adoptit,g an
theory whish •w0,,1d !iare'been ittobststeyt
with tbe iseeurity 'of the pe,Tie I'he idans propos-
ed' fora fiefOrm went to finiQi-sal suttrag?",oti itt least
to make liopulation tt-e,.basi4 of reeneenito;), to
the exclusion of properti. Such a change be l' itgltt.
could riot but ne exCeed':nglY utjui ious la i:S s.
Adverting to what had beensaid by theNol-de Lord
with respect to the Gathhtit Cl tin, ,he w if-led to
call the 'attention of th'e ifo:le to the teat state
of the question The N•sq, Lord (L -,rd Ore)),
:or his Ow 'n part; was oily ‘v!l;ing to grant their
prayer on -a 'Condit ou ivhiCh he did not know the-
Catholics would accept, and whikii Ministers had
reason to belteAe they .:NYouid refuse. being
the state of the car=t, he thonght it unnecessary to

' say more on 'that ' subject.. 1.-le' now' fink' eed(d to„
speak on theicireum•tances of the war. ' Whatever
• dnielence•of opinion fermeily (xisted (in that sub--
...p!ct,-.: he behev(d among' all sonci' rational men
but little col-uteri:ly of 'sentiment retnanied. Wlien
. ,
peace collie, -be 'itonnur:tb:y4 add advantageously
ma,;e, it ' Would certain!'; 'be roost desuaeie, but
that Could not be done at the present moihelit, Par-
liamete and the country \were pretty geneially satis-
fied; -fro, Noble'Lerd had' coniiselled the husband-.
ing °Pt heir resources'and the avoiding of co:nj eration
as nitich •its'Nssible. • On this seb*t, aS he had said.
•
before, he wished them fairly to c insider the merits
of the case, and decide whether or not such a line,
of conduCt would-;.rote 'most condecive to the in-
fcrests of the country. If by thco-oiiteratnig sys-
Cern condemn-ea by the Noble' bird, they gained-
trade ^and ii(ivantages which otherwise would be un-
attainable; surely then it must oppear to be:a Wise
policy. Vie wished to ;1;k 'the' Noble.,Lord, if
at the' 'time a spirit of resistance. main tested
Itself in Spain to resist. the foulest and most
unprincipled of all weitnat-!ons, 'he had 'been a
MeMber of his Majtistyls Giarnment, ,whether-or
not he -would then have preached .tlii; deetrine,
and told‘the 'country, f‘ We are acting bpou an eco-
nomiCalsyStem, and can 'give nothing to Spain- arid
EVortpgal ?'', The tn,tnner in which ' the war li-9
a been condo red had nothing to do with this
;:question. On that . st-lbjc‘,l he : would s;:eak
ptesenity; but he Wished to ask tie Noble
'Load, .it op that occasion be would have teeotn-
mended a total abstinence (corn all c6*-Opetation .?-
Tire Noble Lord would urn at such 0. crisis have
pursued Sub!) a line of ceedth.l. He dared no. ,t to
do so. The country wee, d ece h.•ve C.)orrie.it.." Tlije
qUestion now became, 1;.;.,r U. our exertions' in the
1* cause of Spain and PerfLuif had peen wisely trade ?
Ilk! Nolie' Leta had 'set forth the pr. pries), of
' considering of the expediency of withdiele..irg our
. forces from the. Peninsula: He did not wish to de-
etfive by holding out hopes too sangt.4ine to he real-
!' isej ; bat he would sAy that hethouehi if they were
[ to vs it hdraW our forces frOni ' the l'euinspla now,
'' their conduCt would ,be ui:iveisAiiy coot, mired. He
was uipkillitig to speak on this subj,!ct alter theiclear
I and luminous statement made on ti former evening
'by his Noble Friend, every weird of which. met with
his entice approbation. Ile however would say th.•
sPirit of Spain still remained uusubdued. She still
-pessessed within herself the weans of making au
effectual resistance., He did 'not mean to 'say it
thence necessarily followed belt her her cause would ul-
timately be crowned '‘v nil, success. Tbat must in a '
great measure depend en the Manner 'in which
those Mearis T.:yore applied ; 'on: the ability and in-
tei,rity of-tho.e to whom they were entrusted ; but
if England never gave her ass.siance to a' cause till
she !build a Government all virtue and all wisdom
to Solicit it,- she wouid probably never have an op-
portunity of so exerthinr herself, The struggle of
Spain for her independence:, la=cl been protracted
through the assistance of Great. Britain for t w.o years.
' The cause which mill..aniMatei I. I aersons was not
the t htliusilisto of success, it preceeduti trorri mistor
tune; .and was perhaps mole to be admired thus
arising from defeat than if it followed victory,—
White such a spirit survived they w ete,bound no( tat
de ‘pair, Pi cherish it, aed strain every' nerve in the
c.mse. nts Noble Friend had said that thou.;ll the
.cause was such as to call' forth our assistance from
the noblest moties_ of gener9sity, yet if it were
only considered as a que:ion of dry policy a suffi-
cient stlinilus' would . remain. While France wants
a formidable navy England is tree. What,spot in
the wOild was' there that could aft Jcl France such
ainple Means of contesting the sovereignty of the
~,
seas With us as Spain i Leaving then out of;tnOr con-
sideration the larger (piestion, as to rest,orlog the.
balance of power, it would from. selfish motives
be
our object to ..fight the cause of Spain for our own
sake, for our Own security. While this spirit sur-
vived; there was, moreover, the chance of new hos-.
tility breaking out against France, but without 4tiy_
snefi chance' they were beiund, in honour and' in
policy, to continue the .cOn test to the'. lase.: If in the
end it 'should be lost; ecru, in !hat case he thiaight
the Noble Lord cirtlld` hardly contend that
~lhe
struggle had been of no advantage to England, as
the lengthened contest, weakening and wasting i he
'strength of our Ctlt!illi?, must naturally have tire
eift;i:;t of increasing the scan ity of our ; dominions.,
If, pursuing his economical system, the NuWe Lord
would forbear to make such :-..trurts in a cause which
England cannot but' feel so great an interest, and
expose the country to all the consevent danger,
then would his economical Systetn.,be the .most
ruinous and ext le% agint that could he 'conceived.,
The Noble Lord next adverted to the E,iipedition to,
Cepenhaigen. It was fitted out, •hi contended,,
ou the soundest principL.s of justice and of .po;-
!icy. He knew, at leat as far as human testis
cony could" go, hit It was the intention of
Frahce 'to apply the Copenhagen fleet as part of
the means she wali then preparing ler the inva-
sioa of this conntry. The jifii.cele of :the Or-
tiers .in Council lie had neW to . exPl:ain. 'FrAnce,
as had been'said, was„willingee let Amto tea trade--e,
b'at nut wiTh•Ettgratid. 'To ctitinterda -0!e 'effect of.
tnat Decree Was the intent of, the Orders in Court-
ed. Our confine: c: and tnanufactUrerbadlidurish-

ed more they. ever didiaefore under 'those .Orders, their civil liherties, and to asvid thi it rights, and
.which were a just measure of retaliation on France. save them from succeeding, tvrantc ? If they r'sl
Tdeappoititments that had beeo adOerted to, had not, then he' would ask them haw they e coffi
not been made inconsequence of the exertion of tenance the attack which the Commons es
undue influence. Every Administration, for its own upon the civil rights of their lePow-subjetsis That
sake, - worald naturally selat. the most efficient acct reform in the Abuses of the Stave was nece.sary 0")
merdorious public servants they _,cotild. find. -After one would doubt ; that.. reform .M.A.l.e..Commons
a few words in vindication. Of the appropriation of House of Parliament was mtrh more occess-lrY.
the Consoliikaied Fund, the Noble Lord proceeded there was no one but would allow, tilio•was'itoi.:
to state that our great resources of Public wealth terested, to be true. 'lt is the want.at rea4m.whica:
. mere increasing, and the, nation, far from being in . creates this very self-same, Self,atc•umed:
"a decjihing state, was rising, and had risen highet lately exercised, for a .-.pure .repre-sentation..off
e‘er in commercial prosperity. To prove this, people never would recognise. such hostile•princi'
he would refer their Lordships to the -statements on pies. His Lordship thou remarked upOn
theA- table,' from 'which it appeared that -our .cow- parts of the observations that fell from a Nobleairi
merce arid reVennehad increased in a most unexam- '.(Liverpool) respeding• 'the uoeal sove of
pled•rnannerT:ie permanent and war taxes had People's representation, and denied that it'vraS suck'
greatly increased in their ;produce. The permanent as'.atilarded fair opportunities for splendid talents t° •
taxes in 1808 produced 31,571,0001...; in 1810., shew forth. That bethought much more likely
34,895,0001. The Noble Lord gave a variety of be produced by the People having the opp,rtuniti
other statements, from, which it appeared- that the - of making their' .choice, than by in indtWo'l
other branches of the revenue were equally flourish- choosiag himself 1-bi_a_...seat_ by means,..af....his-11W',
ing and piothietive. The state of -the army he had ney. The, House of :Commons ,%vould• bw more
next to s'peak cif It had been spoken ',of 'as filling likely to have a greater -assemblage of genius bY,
off tnaterialls,. He had to state, that netwithstand- the Lpeople sending thither this inen •of tbeil,
inghil the circornstances. of thecampaigua in which ehOiee,.than by-the. wealthy individaa!l purchasi4ll
it had been engaged, its numbers were (considerably his admission there. TJ,e one was, likely. to rePl':
increased, ay is exceeded by mere than 27,000 men sent his genius, the other his guines,L ihoug"',
what it' was in 1807, 'The 'number. of vessels taken that it was neither-politic or wise- to •hold, yr tor'
from the enemy aanourrted to 40. sail of the line and affect to hold, the opinion's of the pergola in cot''
45 frii;atcs making; 'with' those belonging to our tempt: For his part,. he hardly knew of ::toy ~
allies resctia friatri the ertemy'S grasp, 58 sail of the in ancient or modern times, which wade that a pill'.
Hiie And 5 ufrigateS.' In ad:!itiOn to thee the French ciple, but who h Into decay' !1e•
.
had been, for the first time in any driven en- • Noble and Learned Lard supported anvtid:i,ent,
tirely Out of 't he ;West Indies. The 'French and but said A hat • there was a 'great pat t'-ut car Addre4
Dutch flags were suffered, to wave in. that hemi- • • which had his-support.'
sphere .no mote, an advantage' which had never been., t The Loitp Cgs:scar-Loa supperted,the'rpyiloge'
gained, before, ,not even in-the -war ot• 1756. The.' of Parliameot, and opp.*d the mOti.in of thq N
f h anirlrof-Braganzaadheen removed- front French : Earl, la'dause it asserted whit his ',nick%) 10.`
influence and French- aggression to the Binds, .denied night ;=fief; night. The Noble Leal2;r
hende• advantages of importance night be exnect- Lord 'held stated, that the Frea.dorn of, iiV Stihr t,
i•
ed to result. to.this .cbirnitt)ri Portugal;, whichhad, '• I supported at ail time's by trial by ;Jo) a;c;
been overrun by an
;eiemy,•,had seen a.hat. 1-ietny Freedom of t!..:a Press. He vywald ask, ")s
expelled
.by valour. Spain had.- heenencou- gerierAl• practice of the Cot.:-t,. Its llt:t~`'Cpto a
I. raged to struggled with her oppression by Our exam -• %,vhich. he. Bail presided;, in, oases' Where "ta'ial•
pie. Ttie poll of Ciition was now free, ;ard Cadiz did tiot•applys he had cirdered the p, ty. to, atli-L.
akin Coma Isere at present occupied I,;y-Blit'lsli;` e and whera•conteimpt•trad appeared tHad-cowl.
ccinjuii6tion Wlth Spahish Irriops, SuCti:;w,is; tie ted. The Noble andL?arned Lod bed Jane the sclo-1;
rep -siaie of things at the
_period when 'the' Noble • ; a—ed:ladge-shad pesses4e-d power of cominotl,
Loid had thought' proper rn Move a censure sas•e= ! (or Contempt., .11.1 put it -to thi.-ir L- ordships witeth4.
vere: -He knew the justiCeasf their Lordships, and the commitment for contempt w.;s Rot as n0.,..4
he. knf w they would, not, p' t-icill•a censure with. the4ex.tarcei, as triai by Jury. Evry .Court 11)
to
out ascertaining that it was richly deserved.' Had, have- (4ard 'his Lordship) a surruna-y
he (Lord Liverpool) thought props-r. tarnow.e,such.; punish for cootemaa, -,vithutit in tri.il•
an Address at the end of one year of the Noble 'Jury. Walt yespect to this power visted in raF'os
'Lord's "(Lord Grey's) Administration, how, many I meat, it, was c.:trusted to the House of Coull'°,
failures, how:. •many disgraces, might he have ,under.a responsibility. If they took away tlf3l r
.crowded into it: ." Look," said the Noble Lord, •sponsibilaty from the,Constitated Authorities, r,,
Look. at the state O,the Nation now, and cow- had.ne security forthe.due execution of ties.r`ve l
pare it with what it was then. With all we have ; How far weri; questiens,which.coticerned the Hun'
JoaLahe_balance.is_in favour of thepresealanomettt.' j aaf-Couituotia„-to go. before aJu y ? Was the C°„
Russia at that period was nearly as she ; mons in c iseof contempt to say, `• we will gl've art'
Austria: certainly was not supported by the Adini- hit 'to persons - who speak to us without 10
nistration of that dey, and Prussia daring the ,short and that we will attend to some and taut re.
period they were in power,fell, and probably ±1•11 to others.? His Lordship could not allow that aOro,
rise no more." The Noble Lord concluded a speech strairif•Ought to be put on the eiereise: Fe cf.
of dis!ingtikhed ehiqu,:nce, expressing'm
satisiattiou ; tetitary privilege. He Consicl.ved the priviitl of
at the change in the pos't pre 01 our al-faits:' the. House of Commons to•be the privileges °f
hod
Lord STANHoPtt had' heard' with surprise the
~Peers...--Ther had-bern gi, en not, for t:e adow'res
f ' speech of the Noble Lord, setting forth how much Members,.of Parliament, but frrit:e safety
the state'of the country ha! improved onder the E,people.; thorefote it was too muLti to., say lb: ;0*
guidance, of the preseri; blessed Adiroins,ration. istituent power should not, have tiiitt, of coot
His amendmeot he; ;thought wore necessary, atter toittihg ter Contempt, in common wars other C'!..0.4
• heatiog that very exiraordioary speeen. He then ;;;NYi!ll;topeCt returrn, his LoidshG, was
contended -against the privileges claimed by. the .-that't here never had, ueen.a milder or
House of Commons.. Ti'cey ought to have such as union in the woi He, had examinee; loe
were necessary to the proper exercise of thei,rfune- •• of h, and he did not btaeVe it cold be impro'i
Lions, and. no mere. That cry House of Conimphs ..any innovation, which, on the Cotit,ar)-, ~o•
had the other day sent a Bill to that House which he ca4cUlated to hazard the'advatnageS we at fetes...n•
t t,i4
not how sufficiently to censure, empowering 'ioYed.. His Lordship Concludeo by o 1 puSiu3
a parish officer to.fldg and starve arty poor creatuce motion and arriendtneur. • a';
who would not v. ork. They; (the House Of Corn- ;- The Duke of Nuaroott. suaportvd the argtl:.,'
Mons) might com,nit hint it they:_pleased for a ~of Lund 'and ioutnated..his
libel, but he would saY,.iiteMember who orough in vote fin- the itn4 amendment. ,
. '
such a Bill hat b.en inattentive td duty as a Lord SIONOUTH comuriea with his N trie , oti#
Member at Parliament, and he would tell them, so 'on the question-of the privileges and riglos
if he.were among -th..m, and. set thenyat deti.nice. Hi".! thonght the other HOuse void(
The House of Commits not haying the power of ed his, Noble. Fijeid, tor the atteniton
she P.
examining upon oath, could not ',love in. a legal the subject, in bring it und-r -the consid...rat.llo
way that an alleged otle»ce had been. committed.honourable 'and enlighiened Minds. The s''f tad
Suppoiing,a libel were' written in. this, way, `'. A. out exp.'ditions, which hint been the stitneCt.°roDE
liklVer of men sitting at,West minster." • It might f Noble:Earl's 6bi,:rvations, ca!!el fir 11:s _
then he' tiecessary to. have:parentheses with there •tion. ' •Minisftra -had not appliLd e' VC(
words (meaning thereby the House of Commobs), lion% to advahtageeus puri:oses. With r„.e'atia•
would refuse to hear the ofibuder's defence.
.to the continuation of the war, and thP
lie mean the'House-of Lords, the Court:of 'My which was rizessary, it was his f:<?r.u. est'
P.:xchever, or the Judges Westminster.; ;-Would •/ opinion that th.ithing but' the principles Tecap'
they, witlii-nt hearing,him, torn hem out, and Corn • Alomy could avert liie•evils proceeding from t°
snit him behind his back. Tt,iSi-WAs the jurisdiction -test. The War Taxes; and the surplus of Ihett
for Which an Hon. Member contended. •It was quite solidated Fund 'sass our' nly deperidcno o
„ifices
abominable. After some farther observatioos on economy Nvas'net Strictly adnered to, our re';
crtli
the privileges, and some strong rem: ks on their for- -would soon prove i. ad, (pate. He °'ict
iner conduct, he gave a tudierous description of the • his Noble Friend on of the ciroPari,a6
squabbles of Ministers. and their opponents, stating Spain. The EXpedition unuer.Sir John A;l‘)°,.leolor
them to abuse one another with the civility' of St. been condueted on a mistAken view; but the e'ilwai
Giles's, and ill. the politeness of Billingsgate. He .i went of a large- force under Sir A.Weiksley laugh!
SL thought it might, not be exactly proptr A,.,
o turn out mised considerable advantage. The ocau Vi be
• Mitristers in- the present state of things: FOr a 'time, could not perceive that ally hope or success cc)°t
though he did not like them, he thought it would, beldout theCathpiics. Hi- would not achtlist,la
be'best that they should all hang together." He tholic Emancipation had received the 410' 11°'(
concluded by moving, as an amendment, time substi-' couragement from Monsters.: With res:)ect...„o",
tuition of these words fop part of the original motion.' form, he bad sren tie country in the pOS4t:rilie,lo,'
",And they pledge thecnselk es to support the law of civil libetty; that had never before Ocot
thetelwe,iot Ve
ahe.land, and the rights and liberties of the subject, of any nation, and lie VOL. LI hot,
by preserving the trial by Jury ;to do which, the Ii- throw.down any pan of the fabric,. w't:l bee!
belly of the press is indispensable." ' ing convinced that a sure advantage woul • 00,
vox h.
Lord Soryocx. supported the amendment. .He rived from the intio:atittn The Noble r!,
entered into a discussion upon the conduct of Minis-. concluded by stating_ that tie could not, oacier;'/
ter*, with respect to the way in, which the war Was considerations which pressed upon hint, g
carried on in, Spain, and expressed his apprehensions sup; orr to the Amen !silent. - '
~t,o •
that it was not like,y to succeed,' not,• he thought, Lord Dotaouousreaa made a few obSell,'‘l
from any ward otpeblic spirit in tie Spaniards, but' Marquis ut LAN*I).)-v NE said he dooe,, uri.„
„04, !
frond the want of that which of all whets induces manypoints wito hiss Noble Friend who
men to stand forth; in defence of their country-- the Jiddress. He-hokight that the Court °
namely, Constitutional Liberty. . meat was more entitled to•rhe power of CoonNje,.
Lord EitsKlN supported the. amendment of his
.for contempt than airy other Court. If the
Noble Friend (Lord Stanhope). lifs Lordship ar- bers W. the other Hense did not exercise ti'jt
-gued that the privilege as,.nited by the House of for the benefit of the people, Ito y n"gl,l he /I P Commons, to imprison for he R
u, was contrary to the- after the dissolution of aliament. ,
ksiowo law of the land, and to Mago Clarta. ,He Maignis then scondeMued t; r poc.v 9t •
was exceedingly sorry to dilfer with the Noble Eari...'cuntaaign, and observed, that there w,is
,(Orey) who pro Posed the Address ; but he realiy, l• mentioned by isis N ble Hem! A 1.1(11 toe ;110,0
lotind, that. it wa.s quite imposiiide for him, in the cretary of State had. left titihotie, d
dischit* of his deity', and in the conscientions dis- • the paper.- cuirency. •It was t.trt
thitgerth 1,, to adoin that the Hoose, of Cominons, ,i soy, a greater addition hail bee!)
had by .law the or power, which they thuS tency of the country than'had v ver iice:aalec
assumed. lie • asked Noble Loots it they forgot the other country within the sac tie time. Thc con
blued ivhieb their forefathers haeshed to maintain from a variety49l circumstances, had en'

ii 1,, 6 U

LUNDUA,

THURSDAY, JUNE 14, 18 W.

re 141,

1101
t
li)
tli

;c t~4*

treat fr tintttion, It eh .k;. 1
uroict, stn ti:ej9portoui.
i;',63es of the coinintinity },;rat sevc..rity: Yt
an • eff2z.l on-the podt lietn:,es*, by st,veliing the
bLt l)atinsirS; ihe're were not ticmy labouring
C'nl with three. children that \vete not the poor-:
Government
'This teas 0 subject Worthy the rittenti,in of
_ ,avern ment. The N0b1,.. Mar(1111S NV:tS
of the necessity for Reform: aid he concluded by
gum,
Trotting the Address. • .
vat LT& 11
....ticKINGHAtu-niße shortly adverted to .a
.
iety of topics introduced into the deliate,,and Glaredde-
his, intention of resi,ting,the motion, on the
round of its acquiescing in the Catholic claims. AS--
Parliaint-niary Reform, no good could result from
and it would only tend to emnairass the business
of Govern cut.
Larcl SPENciEO declared his full concurrence in all
le sentiments of his Noble Flit:led (Lord Grey),
11:1(1 thought the country under great obligaiimis to
.1141, for having brought forwtd the various snb-
rs in. his Resolution of that night. He expressed
self-very douutful of the good effeets of wtiat we
called a radical Reform, which- in his mind Would
118 k a great deal, without the tertaituy of obtaining
„
itlY adequate advantages: Rut as-to economical Re-.
°111), he conceived that -was a subject which de-
rnatided the closest and most unremitting attention
°I Parliament.' 011.1 he other great topic of the pri•
7ilegt's'Cif the House of COrnlitOSlS, he thought that
they Were absolutely essential to the existence of
s:+rliatuent ; they 'had been exercised in the beSt.
!Imes of the Constitution, and were quite neceszaty,
Lo its defence and "protection.
Lord -DAR NLEr supported the Address. It was
11°t•wonderlul that-the people were loudly calling
for a Reform in*Parliament,. when a italic in seats
.etas acknowledged to .exist. What would their
-f-drdships think if- peerages were a saleable commo-
dity ? - Neither was it surprising that the people
!newed distrust of . that House-of' Commons which
defended and praised the Expedition to Walcheren.
Such conduat was equal to a thousand arguments
in favour ,of Reform.
Lord Eimi.tNti and the LORD CHANCELLOR MU-
"lally explained.
'Lord GREY. made a short general reply. The
Privileges of.P:irliatnent, as exercised- in the best of
times of the Constitution, be conceived to be essen-
tial to the independence of Parliament. He had
the conclua of his Noble and Learned Friend
(Lord Erskine) against the opinion he now profess-
td• For his Noble Friend, when Lord Chancellor,
'lid- not hesitate to commit a person to the Fleet for
a contempt of Court; and should the House of
eontinons, daily deliberating on the great atlairs of
tonation, by which the mil.d.; of men were apt to
greatly agitated, be less protected in the freedom
Of their deliberation than the Court of Chancery,
Perhaps in the case of a lunaic He should rather
"here to the example which was furnished in the
e2hdOet of his Noble 'Friend than' in the opinions
;bleb he now delivered. The Noble Earl con-
cluded by-expressing his hope, thatthe Botise would
`ccede to the Resolution he bad proposed.
.1.12 e question was titer) put on Earl Stanhope's
4ineodtnent,. which was negatived, with the dig-
rfltient voices of the Duke of Norfolk, Earl Stan-
OP; and Lord Lskine, who immediately left the
4-10u6e.

•
A division then took place of Lord Grey's Re-
solution, which was negatived, tLe numbers bning
at fellow
"an-contents—Peers present 71—Proxies 63 —Total 134
contents—Peers present 43—Proxies z9—Total 72

Majority - 6z
adjourned at Half-past Three o'Clock.
j•Fof the Proceedings of the House of Commons, see the

MAILS.
4241 v —z Dublin, t Watertbrd. I) u --2 ottenburgh,
Lisboa, r Malta, t Waterford.

PRICE OF ST(!CKS
'THIS DAY AT 'MILT& O'CLOCK.
Consols for Opening 7I Ornnium -

SOLESN QUIB DICI,RE FALGUM AIiIIPAT ?

It would give us the most sincere pleasure to be
'able locoitfirm'the report which was circulated this
in°l."lllg, that. Sir RICHARD STRACHAN had made a
•QC(,e4s tut attack upon the French fleet at Flushing 5
but ►t is our duty to state, that tliere is no founda-
tiqu Whatever for the report. The Idas hired armed
*Utter, while reconnoitring
.off that port, unfortu-
ntelY grounded on (the Elbnog Sand, and being left
11144 and dry by the ebbing tide, vas. taken passes-
stun of by the French.

SELtrs.--•-• e' have just heard that since the atro-
a,.
`ItY or this mkt has_been knoWn to the Public, two
Persons have come forward to depose, that he was
Net to Mr:Cm:act-1, forMerly M.P.- and who left
this country for America ; and while he was at New
'l7°ll. S.LLIS was suspected of an intention to assn.
ilinate that Gentleman. Mr. Gummi' had been
t"hed of five hundred dollars, and one night,
*hen he was dozing in his arm-chair (in which he
always slept,, not using a bed); he was roused by
the opening of _his charnbe,r-door, and the appear-
ituee of a man softly stealing in. the man, on per-
telving that 'Mr. CHulicu was awake, sudden.
i
terreated, but that Gentleman suspecting that
It
• Was SELLIS, had him taken up for the rob-
bery, and he 'inderwent an examination before the
Magistraie at New York. 'The result lie do not
know, but lie was discharged from CHURCH'S ser-
ille• One of the persons who have deemed it
'their duty to -gite their testimony on this occasion
.13 said to have' been Mr. C.'s Butler, and the other
lliaiti-servatit in the family, and who i now in the
lame sttuinion at Mr. Alderman COMM'S.

t 5 itMal-;able that SELLIS, VVIIO, Mr, Cirintcu

p-erliunded 1v Cl.ie man who stub;
1) td locket] himself 1.4 some.hours in a c1t;,...e.t, in the
same roanner as lie did at tir.-jaines's.Polace. • •

rev table' liou,ekeei,Vr`iO (1-} oei:;1:15661110od
of Fitzroy-square, 1134 also conie,forward and de-

•
Glared that SELLis some )tars bOasted 'that he
wa.i; the nian who threw is'tone at 'the i'n
James's Park.

' It is souiewhat -cu'riotis that SELL'S wai by rib a
Coriscan.

The Speech delivered by Earl •Gatit • yesterday in
the Hon,c of . Lords, on his motion for an In.quiry
into the State of the Nation, was,'ns might beset.'
pected, marked by a-considerable degree, of ability
and pOtical knowledge, but it was not chfiracferiZed'
by that. political sagacity. and those matured reflec-
tions which might also havebeen expected from the
sentiments of a -Statesman who has had so ninth
opportunity for experience, ,and who cannot but
have ebserVed the events -whch have brought .the
Cdminent of Ebrope to:'SO 'deplorable a dependence
on the will of the. French Ruler. The must satis-,
factory part of the Noble Lord's Speech was that in
which 'be admitted the necessity of those Parlia-
mentary Privileges which have been so bitterly as-
sailed by the zealots of Faction, and on which many,
well.meaning persOns.have entertained doubts.. It
was also satisfactory to find, that though the Noble
Lord is still an advocate for Parliamentary Reform,
he differed from those zealots who recommend rash
and hasty proceedings for the accomplishment of such
an object, and expressed his wishes that every measure
tending to it, should be cautiously and gradually ap-
plied. The rest of the Noble Lord's Speeyh went,
upon the topics usual with the Members of Oppost:-
tion„ such as, the incapacity and improvidence of
Ministers, &c.; and in all those topics We was so ably
answered by the Earl of Lxv c 'lron, that we need only
refer our Readers to the Speech of the latter Noble-
man for an accurate and comprehensive refutation.
Lord GREY moved an Address to his Majesty, pray-
ing his Majesty to conclude an honourable peace
whenever an opportunity °tiered, trusting 'that pro-
per means would ibe adopted for the defence of the
Country, and lamenting the disasters of the late ex-
pedition,—praying for a repeal of the Orders in
Council, fegretting that no steps of conciliation had
been adopted towards Ireland, disapproving of the
pte3ent system of Finance,• and finally requesting
his Majesty to give effect to such measures as might
be necessary to secure the- freedom of debate in
Parliament.

The following Bullqin was issued this morning at
halt-past twelve o'clock, upon the state of the Duke
of 'CUMBERLAND.

" His Royal Highness the Duke of Cob:3EIII.A ND has had
some good sleep in the mght, and his wounds continue •to
have a favourable appearance.
(Signed) " HENRY HA LFORD.
" EVERARL) HO IE."

Yesterday, about half-past twelve o'clock, their
MAJESTIES, PrinceSses AUGUSTA and ELIZABETH,
arrived at the Queen's Palace from Windsor.

At two o'clock his MAJESTY held a Private Levee,
.which was attended by Mr. PERCEVAL, and most
of the Cabinet Ministers. - The tol►owing were pre-
sented to the KING :.••••
Mr., Peel, upon his being appointed Under Secretary of
State. 2 •

The lion Captain Poulett, of his Majesty's ship Quebec,
.on his return tioin NewtOundland, by the Earl of Poo lett.
ordn Barnard, on his marriage, by the. Earl of Darlington.
Major-Gerieral Whetham, on his being appointed third
Major of the rat Reginiciit of Foot Guards.

His MAJESTY held a Privy Council, and gave au-
dience to the Cabinet Ministers..'
The
,QUEEN and Princesses went to Carlton-House
to see the Duke of Cu MBERLM.iD, • and after dining
with the Piince of:WALEs, returned to Windsor in
the evening.
Letters have been received from the Island of St,'
Thomas to the sth of April, and frOrn Jamaica to
.the same date. By the latter no intelligenee.of im-
portance was received. , In the advices from St.
Thorna.4, it is.said, that trade was rapidly increasing,
and that important advantages might be ,expetteti,
by a proper dire lion of the attention of commercial
adventurers in the present situation of the West In-
dies. •• .

• The Brazen sloop of. war, Captain SIMHEARD,
havingomboard his Grace the Duke of MANCHU..
:rua and Admiral ROWLEY, sailed from. Kingston
(Jamaica) on the 13th April, on a cruize round the
Island. A salute was'fired from Fort Charles.soon
after the Brazen got under weigh.
Several French privateers cruizing about the
island, had taken several coasting vessels, and plun-
dered others.

The Salamine privateer, of 20 guns, from lion 7
don, arrived at KiNston on the 11 th of April, un-
der charge of the Challenger sloop of war, from St.
Domingo, where she was seized for having been
detected for carrying on an- illicit trade.
• A report obtained circulation in the course of yes-
terday afternoon, " that General Massena had gone
over to the Spaniards with ihe greater part of the
new, levy, at the head of which he lately marched to
Bayonne." We could not, however, trace this ru-
mour to any authentic source, and we of course place
no reliance upon' it.
We feel satisfaction 'in stating, that the hopes of
the safety of Mr. MUNGo PAnK ara strengthened by
the last advises from Sierra Leone. The Govern-
ment of that Colony, in consequente of some in—
formation they received, hired a schooner, which .
they fitted out with every thing necessary :or the
comfort and -assistance of this enterprising traveller,
and sent it up the country under the direction at a
merchant, who has been resident in Africa some
years.