The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-29 00:00:00

THE BRAZILS.

Sir R. PEEL said, in answer to a question from Mr.
Grimsditch, that the information which her Majesty':,
Government had received upon the subject had
been but very recently received, and had been
handed to the Queen's Advocate to report
upon, and when that report should be received, he would
take care that the Hon. Member should be made ac-
quainted with the nature of it.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said he had had many corn.
munications upon the subject just referred to by the
Right Hon. Baronet, in consequence of which he had
placed a motion upon the paper to the effect that he
would move for copies of the correspondenee that had
Passed between the authorities at Rio de Janeiro and
the Government of this country on this question; but
if there was any objection to the production of them, he
would not press his motion. However, this he would
say, that great alarm had been felt as to the position of
their commercial relations with Brazil ; and it was felt
that the great difficulty of their recent relations had
been owing to the unfortunate policy of this country
towards Brazil upon the Brazilian sugar question—
(Hear, hear)—and, in fact, until the Government
should retrace their steps on that question,
nothing else that they could do would have
the effect of re-assuring the British subjects in that
colony that they were replaced in the full enjoyment of
those privileges which they had a right to enjoy.—
(Hear, hear.) However, as he had stated, he would not
press for the correspondence, if there was any objection
1 to it.

Sir R. PEEL said ho had before him a document is
sued by the Brazilian Government, in which it was
stated that British subjects in that country should
be restored to the fullest enjoyment of all their privi-
leges. He could not see the expedieney of producing
the correspondence alluded to by the lion. Member.
Mr. HUME said he thought those evils had resulted
from the Government of this country interfering in the
internal regulations of other countries.—(llear, hear.)
He felt satisfied that the Government would act wisely by
rescinding its acts in reference to Brazil, and in leaving
every country to carry on its institutions as it deemed
fit. He was sure that if any other country attempted
to dictate to this what its institutions ought to be, he
was sure that this country would reject such interference
immediately.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said he had a letter in his band which
he had received that moment, an extract from

which he would read to the House. This letter was
directed to a firm in the City, and it stated that a gen-
tleman, named Harvey, who died on the I I th of
February, left a will, under which a person named
Castell was appointed to act as executor. At the time
of this gentleman's death he was loading a vessel, and had
put into it about 1,5001. worth of goods, for the pur-
pose of liquidating a debt ; but a judge claimed to
have the property, which was actually sold, and the pro
ceeds placed as a deposit in his court. A great inconve-
nience and loss was occasioned by the power now assumed
by the Brazilian authorities, and in this instance the
property which was valued at 1,5001. had. been
nthe
sold by the Judge for 900/. He agreed in
observations which had fallen from the Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Montrose, but he
would submit that this was an evil which
was occasioned by that combination of monopolists under
whom the Right Hon. Baronet had to some extent sub-
mitted his Government. This was characterised as an
unfriendly act of the Brazilian Government ; but
how could it be expected that that Government
should entertain any friendly feelings towards them,
while, under a pretence which they all believed
etoonbny vas efrofia.ht•preoveernittiecdal
from
characterd—in(g fairly with the
liear,hear)— hear)—this
Brazils—(Hear, hear)—and in the district from which
he came there was the greatest possible dread that
their trade with the Brazils, which amounted
etondaangemreidlliofrn
omantdhe acouhrase which
fas
this
would
jeopardisedh.ts
country ahnlat(l
ethoufigishtatttlelnetißonigtlott
thlle o
B
tdaok e n. H
well
to
turn
deavour to make some wise and salutary
z regulations
dwei nt
h
regard to it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROTHERTON said he had received several
representations from the place which he represented, on
the
subject of the oppressions to which the merchants
were subjected to in Brazil, and great alarm and ap
prehension was entertained as to the security of
their property and interest in Brazil.—(Hear, hear.)
He was glad that her Majesty's Government had paid
attention to the subject, and he trusted that something
would be done to remedy the evil.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS trusted that her Majesty's Ministers
would not follow the advice of the Hon. Member for
Montrose. There was not a sacrifice that the people of
this country were not prepared to make—there was no in-
crease in the price of sugar, or any other article,
that they were not prepared to bear—if there were a Tea-

sonable certainty of stopping such a crime as traffic in
slavery.
Mr. WARBURTON could not believe that the
people of this country were so insensate as not to see
the effect of the returns which had been made

to that House with respect to the slave trade. From
those returns it appeared that the number of slaves
which the British cruisers had arrested in their progress
from Africa to the Spanish colonies or the Brazils did
not amount to more than three per cent. of
the whole number carried from Africa to the

opposite coasts of the Atlantic. When the British
publ►c looked at those reports, they could not but sec
that the measures which had been taken by the Govern-
ment for the suppression of the slave trade were totally
inefficient.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that in the former treaty
entered into by the present Government with Portugal,
a treaty of trade and navigation had been entered into,
giving protection to the lives and property of British
subjects. He wished to know if, in the treaty
with Brazil, the Government had acted in a similar way?
Sir R. PEEL said that attempts had been made to
complete the treaty in a similar way, and he had every
reason to believe that by that time the signatures of the
plenipotentiaries had been affixed to the treaties.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that that was not an
answer to the question of his Noble Friend. The
question was, whether the separate treaty would be
signed before the other had expired on the 18th of No-
vember.

Sir R PEEL did not anticipate any difficulties in the
way of signing the treaties.

Jr.l SIIEIL thought such a desultory conversation
tended to no certain purpose. He was of opinion, the re-
fore,. that a resolution should be moved expressive
of the opinion of the House will regard to the
impolitic course pursued by the Government
in its negotiations with Brazil ; and if in other Ilon.

Member would propose such, he (Mr. Sheil) should take
an early opportunity or doing so.
The conversation then dropped.
MAYNOOTH.
Mr. SIIARMAN CRAWFORD said that he was
afraid that he could not, consistently with the orders of
the House, bring forward the motion he had given notice
of with regard to Maynooth till the report of the Com-
mittee of the whole house were brought up upon the
Bill. He would, therefore, take another opportunity of
bringing it forward.
Mr. HUME pre.lented several petitions against the
grant to Maynooth.
Lord CASTLEREAGII presented several petitions
against the grant, and also several in favour of it from
parishes in the county of Down.
Numerous petitions against the grant were presented
by Mr. G. Duncan, Mr. 11indky, Mr. Ewart, Lord San-
don, Sir A. Brooke, and Mr. C. Berkeley.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented several petitions
against the grant, and one of which was signed by
1,800 persons, who expressed their surprise that the
public voice was not attended to in the House.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) They prayed the house to reject
the grant, and to consider the propriety of discontinuing
the connexion between Church and State.—(Hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from the mayor,
aldermen, common-council, and seventeen magistrates of
Manchester in favour of the grant, and expressing the
opinion of the petitioners that the welfare of the whole
empire was dependent upon the conciliation of the Irish
people.—(Hear.)
'the Hort. MEMBER presented also five petitions from
religious congregations in Manchester against the grant.
Mr. FERRAND presented three petitions from places
in the county of Tyrone against the grant. The peti-
tioners had requested him to present their petitions,
because they had no confidence in their own repre-
sentatives.

Sir 11. PEEL had been requested to present a petition
very numerously, and he believed very respectably
signed, from merchants, bankers, and traders of Liver-
pool, in favour of the grant to Maynooth College.
The RIGIIT HON. BARONET also presented potitions
in favour of the grant, from Presbyterians in the county
of Antrim.

Lord INGESTRE presented a petition against the
grant to Maynooth ; and petitions to the same effect
were presented from several parishes in Norfolk.
MAYNOOTII COLLEGE BILL.

On the report on the Maynooth Endowment Bill being
presented by Mr. Greene,
Mr. LAW said that he rose to offer to the considera-
tion of the House his motion to negative, if possible, the
proposition of her Majesty's Government, that ail the
charges, expenses, and burthens of the measure affecting
the question of Maynooth College, be defrayed from
the Consolidated Fund, and that the permanent
State endowment of that Roman Catholic Col-
lege be drawn from the taxes of the people of this
country. lie repudiated both these propositions, and
threw himself on the indulgence of the house in
stating such reasons as he might be enabled
to advance why the consideration of these resolutions
should be indefinitely postponed. When he locked at
the magnitude of those interests which had been af-
fected, he felt that all hope and expectation of en adequate
discharge of public duty on this question should fail.
In proportion as the principles involved in the measure
were of vital importance—in proportion to the universal
interest which the people of England and Scotland
took in it, directing all their energies to this
matter under the consideration of the House,
he threw himself on the kindness and indulgence of the
House to allow him, in as Concise a form as
possible, to state the grounds of his opposition,
and the reasons for which he was now, and for
ever would be, opposed to the measure. It was
desirable that the principles of the Bill should he kept in
view, and these, he apprehended, were twofold. First,
that it was desirable to make a permanent
endowment in favour of the , Roman Catholic

priesthood ; and, secondly, that the empire should
be taxed in order to pay a permanent charge for
such education. The latter was the main feature of
the pleasure—the permanent State end owm, nt of an
establishment for the forming of the Roman Catholic
priesthood. lle (Mr. Law) was of opinion that the
State should enter into no such alliance, and deprecated
the principle of taxing the people of this country for
any such purpose. This measure was introduced by the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head oilier Majesty's Government to that
House, and introduced, too, under circumstances that could nut
he approved by those who sent the supporters of it here, who
sat at this side of the House ; but this measure was supported
and carried through the first reading owing to the aid whieh,
the Right Hon. Baronet had received from those who were
usually his political opponents. In like manner was the Bill
presented to the House a second time, and a second time was
it suscessful through the aid of political opponents ; and it was
most important to observe that a great portion of those who
supported the Bill did so for the purpose of extinguishing the
opposition to the Bill. Then, with respect to the Bill
itself, the House was left in the dark as to how
many colleges there were to be established, or whe- •
ther they were to be for academical education. The
Right Honourable Baronet had, up to this moment,
maintained the most profound silence. He had not given
any information as to the nature or extent of his plans, and
would not do so until he had succeeded in procuring the ap-
probation of that Home that the money was to be paid out of
the Consolidated Fund. The House knew not whether the
colleges were to be for religious education in separate col-
leges, or whether there were to be scholarships or fellowships.
In fact, they were asked to take a step that would be a leap in
the dark. History, in recording the transactions of that
House would have to record that the Right Hon. Baronet
threw himself for support on those who usually opposed
him.—( Hear.) And even if he gained a triumph, if
triumph it could be called, it was gained by
following and not by leading the Noble Lord opposite into one
of the lobbies of the House. One hundred and eighty Gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House voted for intposing this
tax on the people of England for the permanent endowment of
themhe y on e
e
ee
stheeßtied thatoeemanCa principlethol
ic College of
u ldMb
it
here-
afterw to retrace their steps. He did not object to the amount
oar impossible sib alnedtorift
of the money proposed to be given to Maynooth, but he ob-
jected to the principle of paying one sixpence from the taxes
of this country for the endowment 4,f that College.—( Hear,
hear.) He was influenced by no unkindly feelings towards his
Roman Catholic fellow -;subjects, hut in principle he
s opposed to the
_endowment of the College of Maynooth.
kviik enlae said that he was influenced by no unkindly feeling
he trusted that he might fairly have credit for that declaration.
He respected, asmuch as any man, his fellow.subjects opposed
to him in religion—he had the most perfect and the most
unbounded respect for his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects,
liberal mind to feel otherwise
etas remembered
forblered any
tht for conscience' sake they had for
s"fool:elinotoigt was
" impossible
a period of time suffered deprivation of the highest
offices of the State. But he took a broad distinction be-
tween commiserating our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects,
and the principle of endowing the Catholic Church. It was to
retain that broad distinction that he ventured to trouble the
House with his observations on this occasion. Why did not
the Right Hon. Baronet act upon the principle which he
had recognised in the Charitable Bequests Act of last year ?
By the 15th clause of that Act, power was given to the
Roman Catholic Church to benefit by bequests for the purpupli
of building parsonage houses, and endowing Roman Catholic
places of worship. Instead of that, the Right Hon. Baronet
now proposed to establish an irrevocable grant to site
College of Maynooth. This involved a principle mischievous
tolaynthooothlasht
had been
. s u
plpf
0, r severaltesupported
b y
th yearse ago,voluntary
contributions
the College isC
t
of the Roman Catholics themselves, it would have been now a
flourishing establishment, and there would have been no
necea-
sity for such a Bill as the present. The Roman Catholics of
Ireland were distinguished for their liberality and their charity.
They were moreover in the possession of the most abundant
means. Means which enabled them not only to provide for
the sustenance of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, but
also to send Roman Catholic clergymen educated in Ireland as
missionaries to other countries to propagate their doctrines
there, instead of retaining them in Ireland to assist in the edu-
cation of the Catholic people in that country. He felt it to he
his duty to oppose this attempt to burden the Consolidated
Fund with their maintenance for the education of the Roman
Catholic clergy of the College of Maynooth. If the grant were
withdrawn altogether, he believed that the Roman Catholics
of Ireland would take the maintenance of the College into their
own hands, and would, by maintaining it, show the extent of
their zeal and of their charity. It might be said that this sub-
scription had been continued for so many years that it had
created expectations of its continuance in the minds of the
authorities of that College, which would be disappointed if the
fund from which they had for so many years derived assistance,
were suddenly done away with. It would not become him tea
suggest to the Right Hon. Baronet the mode in which he rralglit
meet this difficulty, but he (Mr. Law) thought that the Mi-
nister who had not scrupled to draw from the Consolidated
Fund—from the taxes paid by the people of Great Britain—tat
permanent allowance for the endowment of the College of May-
nooth, need not have hesitated at severing the connexion
between the Protestant Constitution and the Ro..
man Catholic Church of Ireland. He might have
brought forward some such proposition as ,lie following :
it appeared to him (Mr. Law) that the Right lion. Baronet
might have said, with much better grace. " We have passed
the Catholic Emancipation Bill—we have relieved from e:oi
disabilities our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects—we have ad•
mitted them to equal rights and privileges with ourselves, and,
that the period had now arrived when Rtate expediency de-
manded that concessions should be made al-e in this particu-
lar."e He should have added, tl.at it appeared to hiiiem ;To
Lit ti
whole right that, while conceding
make, at the same time, the
Establishmentpossibles and 'the Roman
the subject of the Protestantbroadthtis mesuredist 'mot ion on
d u
he must
changingg
his ;tows,
dteopaanliunr.endWifrotinesSipi PsCdeflindrieeiryeisrngP°ltiht i°74
t engage that on a Church question, which regarded Pro*.
at less
vpCireainwtlei.oiplaileensdltiihunoreseh.
principles rt ti.

testant foundations and the Protestant constitution of the coun-
try, that they should not be assailed from the only
quarter to which those concessions had been made. He thought
he did not mistake the Right Hon. Baronet wheat he said that
he had held out expectations of the fullest and most distinct
character:toihe people of this country that he would determinedly
adhere to the fundamental articles of the union, which pre-
served her revenues not only to the English church, but ex-
tended the same to the united churches of England and Ireland,
and which covenanted to extend the same privileges and per-
manency for ever to the national Scottish Church. He did not
rise to make these remarks from any invidious feelings, for none
could exceed him in sentiments of respect and sincere admira-
tion for the Right Hon. Baronet. In the removal of the Roman
Catholic disabilities he (Mr. Law) had given the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet full credit for his avowal that he had
removed these disabilities because he thought such a
course would strengthen the Irish Protestant Church instead of
weakening it, neither did he doubt the sincerity of the intentions
with which he had brought forward this unhappy scheme. He
regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet had not at an earlier
period divulged his scheme of Irish academical education. If
the grant had been withdrawn altogether from the College of
Maynooth he should have been happy to assist in any arrange-
ment founded on just and equitable principles, by compensa-
tion or otherwise, to satisfy the parties interested in that ar-
rangement. He had no ungenerous feelings towards the Ca-
tholics of Ireland. On the contrary, for every shilling with-
drawn from the College of Maynnoth, he should have been
happy to have given them fourfold. If they avowed that agi-
tation could not be put down by force, and that they must
have recourse to concession, he (Mr. Law) would ask
how they could come to any other conclusion than
that the power would no longer rest with the
Right Hon. Baronet to "grant or to withhold further conces-
sions? If they admitted this principle, it was the first fatal
step taken to educate all the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the
expense of the State. When they knew that there was no tax
imposed in this country for the education of ministers of the
Established Church—when, instead of Church extension, they
found the slaughter of bishoprics—was it not too much that
when they saw Protestant endowments—sees well endowed and
in their favour the affections of the country—was it not too much
that the national Church should be deprived of its
bishoprics, and a sum larger than their revenues, by
this proposition, granted to the education of the Ro-
man Catholic priesthood in the College of Maynooth ?
He felt that it was impossible they could rest here if this prin-
ciple were conceded. He did not say that the measure in
terms and expressly provided for the endowment of the
Catholic Church from the revenue of the State, but if the
House acceded to it they could not, at a future time, object
to a proposition for the
,permanent endowment of that Church.
He, therefore, looked upon this Bill as the last battle field of
the British Protestant constitution.—(Hear, hear.) The
petitions which had been poured upon the table had been
disregarded, but he thought that those who had so much con-
fidence in the possible duration of that Parliament for two
years to come, as to treat in such a manner these whom they
professed themselves to represent, would find themselves mis-
taken.—( Hear, hear.) All that he (Mr. Law) had observed
was conclusive to him that, although the motion of the Hon.
Member for Sheffield had failed the other night, confiscation
would be again recommended.—(Hear.) The motion of the
lion. Member for Sheffield had been defeated by a majority
very singular in its elements. It was composed to a large ex-
tent of those who had reason to complain of the course which
the Right Hon. Baronet had taken in respect to the principles
in which they had heretofore supported him, and who stepped
in at a critical moment to save him from degradation—if it
were possible for so high a character to be degraded.—(Hear,
hear. and a laugh.) He (Mr. Law) was sure that whenever
the Church was threatened, and the Protestant foundations of
the empire were in danger, the old supporters of his Right
Hon. Friend would rally round the Right Hon, Baronet, who,
with such troops, had so often conducted them to victory. In
making these observations, he assured his Hon. Friend that he
had no doubt of his sincerity.—(Oh, oh, and a laugh.)
Although his (Mr. Law's) proposition was adistinct negative to
the resolution, still he could have well understood a pro-
position to have been brought forward for the endowment of
Maynooth, in which it might be consistent in him to concur.
No doubt the professors of the College had some right to ex-
pect that for their lives at least the grant would be continued.
Ile would say. give them such a grant freely, liberally, and
generously.—( A laugh.) But then it should be said, at the
same time, that from this moment all connexion between the
State and your College, as an ecclesiastical foundation, must
terminate.—( Hear, and a laugh.) But he would join with
his Right Hon. Friend in the establishment of lay foundations,
strictly so, where Christians of all denominations would receive
education, and have open to them alike the prizes of merit,
and the treasures of science and literature. But this measure
had raised another Catholic question, under more painful cir-
cumstances than ever had been agitated before. He was sure
that a majority of the petitioners who had agreed in the uni-
versal prayer against this grant would support a measure for
the general education of the population of Ireland.
.--( Hear, hear.) He would have the Irish lan-
guege taught to every class of the Irish people—h gh
and low.--( A laugh.) It had been said that the Bill was oct a
ee-maeent endowment, and that the Act could be repealed.
Why so could the reformation be reviewed, and the Act of
Union or the Act of Settlement be repealed. But he would
say more of this grant—that it conferred upon the trustees of
3laynooth a saleable interest.—( Hear, hear.) Instead of being
a measure of conciliation, it would only be food for fresh agita-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) Now ho fur one denied the right of any
Minister to convulse the ceustry by such means.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon, Gentleman concluded by moving that the
report should he read that day six months.
Mr. VERNON SMITIi had imagined, when he read the
I-lon. Gentleman's notice, that he meant to raise some ques-
tion as to the source from which the money was to be received,
but, after all. the Honourable Gentleman had merely recom-
mended that the grant should be withdrawn, and the sustenance
of the College left to the voluntary contributions of the Catho-
lies themselves, although for fifty years they had taken no
measures for that purpose. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had said, on his reputation as a lawyer, that the trustees
would have a saleable interest in the grant ' • but he (Mr.
Smith) would like to know what the value of Maynooth shares
would be in the market ?—(A laugh ) He thought that lion.
anti Right Hon. Gentlemen around him had not acted in this
matter in the wisest manner. He thought they had been
too readily captivated with the apparent liberality of the grant,
an I that they had pledged themselves to the support of the
Covernment before they had considered to what they were
led. More friends had been sacrificed on the Opposition side
than on the Ministerial, on this duration, and he did not think
they ought to have run such risks for such a mea,ure.--
( Bear, hear.) There were two monstrous evils in the eccle-
siastical affairs of Ireland—one was, the state of the Pro-
testant Church a; it existed, and the other the state of the
Roman Catholic Church as it existed. He did not know which
was the greater evil. He did not know whether the Church
of the State was too much overpaid, or the Church of the
people was too much underpaid. But he thought it would
have become the Liberal party in that House to have first con-
sidered what they were doing before they gave their support to
this measure.—(Hear, hear.) They ought to have consi-
dered whether it would not be possible to reduce the Church of
the State so that it should not be so offensive to the people.
The Protestant Church in Ireland was a deformity and an eye-
sore to the people of England. It was indefensible in its pre-
sent condition, and there was no statesman in Europe that
would not regard it as such. He thought some bold, decisive,
and coneiliatory line of policy towards Ireland should have
been adopted, and if so the bugbear of "No Popery" would
not have been raised. The " bit by bit" reforms in religion
were pernicious, whilst the same sort of reform in politico
might be desireable. As regarded the principle involved in
the measure, it had been over and over again recognised by
the Legislature in providing religious instruction and educa-
tion for our colonies. To urge the foolish argument that
what was done in the colonies should not be done at home,
resembled that sort of argument used by the woman who was
accused of connubial infidelity. She boldly alleged that the
faux pas was committed beyond the Cape. His reason for
wishing to endo v the Catholic priesthood was, that it would
give them an interest in the welfare of the empire. He would
wish to see the Catholic clergy independent of their flocks, so
that when a discontented feeling was prevalent they
might tell their flocks, ,s we will not join with you—our breed
no longer depends upon your caprice—the State is inclined to
be just, and we will stand by it," and, on the other hand, if the
State was oppressive, they might say to it, ‘' we will no longer
accept of your money—we will again throw ourselves on our
faithful flocks for support." He must admit that this was the
first time that Parliament had voted money for education with-
out inquiring what the nature of that education would be. He
would support the measure as a new measure and as a new
Bill, because he thought it was the index of a better line of
policy towards Ireland. The Maynooth measure was, after all,
a poor thing. Much had been said about the lavourable
manner in which it had been received in Ireland, but he owned
he could not place much reliance on that sort of disposition
which we were told, by one post, denounced Sir Robert Peel,
and that, if he came to Ireland, even Majesty itself would
hardly protect him, and by the next post that the Conciliation-
hall resounded with cheers for Sir James Graham. He did
not see how the improved mode of education in May-
nooth could favourably influence the minds of the
Catholic clergy in Ireland towards the State—( Hear)—if
nothing snore were to be done for them; on the contrary, he
thought that after having received an expensive and elegant
education, they would feel the difficulties of entering upon the
duties of a poor parish much more keenly. The Right Hon.
Baronet would be highly culpable if, after raising so fierce a
" No Popery " cry, and after stirring up so much bigotry, he
did not persevere in this course of conciliation, and bring in
large, comprehensive and healing measures for the Catholics of
Ireland. His reason for voting for the grant was, that though
he considered it a small measure it had achieved two great
ends—it had terminated the religious question as regarded the
Legislature, and established the precedent of Roman Catholics
receiving State money for their Church. He would not re-
proach the Right Hon. Baronet with inconsistency, though he
thought it would have been a great saving of his political repu-
tation, if he had in 1829 retired from the Cabinet and allowed
others to carry it.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—But would you have carried it if you
had not left office ?
Mr. VERNON SMITH—The Right Hon. Baronet might
have come down as an individual Member and supported the
measure, which would have been much more decorous. He
hoped, however, that in giving his support to this measure, he
might venture to hope that the Right Hon. Baronet would not
atop at that ; that he would not propound great principles
merely for the purpose of eff •
lees of all opposition ecting small ends, but that
fromregard-
less this side of the House or that, he
would persevere with those
Ireland, which would be the measures of conciliation towards
the peace and prosof elost certain means of leading to
that part of the United Kingdom.
Lord NORRE grits'said he did not think that this mea-
sure bad yet been properly sifted. The people of this country
had been led by the
convince them
representations they had heard to believe
that the measure now before Parliament,
the House for the first
to
been ment, in reference to the
endowment of Maynooth,
m had
time, instead of means having been taken
of what was the real fact—namely, that it before the
'
House every year for the last fifty years, and that the proposi-
tion now before the House was really nothing more than a
re-assertion of that principle with the details carried out upon
ey
a more liberal and extended scale.—(Hear, lar
person who knew anything of Ireland must know, that thEatv ther
}lcman Catholic religion had been, and was, and would be, the
ret.,:tion of the majority of the people of that country ' and
it no: therefore plain that any vote against this measure
be looked upon by the Irish people as a vote would was
ainst
their religion. The question appeared to him to be
regarded by those who opposed it as a question of religion
or no religion. Now, though he differed from the tenets of
of
the Roman Catholic faith, ha would much prefer to have the
Roman Catholte religion than no religion at all.—(Hear,
hear.) lie had heard it objected, too, that this proposed grant
Ps.; to be paid out of the income-tax ; hut even if it were,
surely so small aMU could not affect that tax. But the ab-
surdity of such a proposition was so plain that he would not
further dwell upon it, As to the objection that had been
raised to it, that this grant should not be made to the exclu-
sion of the Dissenters, he would beg to ask how could there for
a moment be any comparison maintained between the two ?
It. Ireland they had a Protestant establishment, and the Dis-
senters were also paid there, and yet great opposition was
raised to a measure which proposed but a very small compara-
tive sumlor the education of the clergy of the great majority
of the people of that country.—(llear, hear.) He
had also heard it objected, that the Right Honour-
able
Baronet, who had brought forward this measure,
ought to have been the last
the-
man in that House to have done so,
upon •
eroun
d that it vas inconsistent with his usual course
,
of policy. N. ow
,he (Lord Norreys) begged to say that he had
been for the I.lt Aileen years a Member of that House, and,

during that time, he had never heard the Right Hon. Baronet
say any thing inconsistent with such a course.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Lord Norreys) would ask where were now those Hon.
Members of that House who used language out of that House
in reference to this measure, which they had not the manliness
to use within it? He should say for himself that he had never,
when on the Opposition side of the House, given his vote
against the grant to Maynooth, because he looke t upon such a
course as unchristian, and, therefore, he would Leg to say that
he would now give the proposed measure his most cordial and
unqualified support.—(Cheers. )
Lord DALMENY said he intended to give his vote in
favour of this measure ; and, in doing so, he wished to explain
what some persons might, perhaps, term his apparent incon-
sistency. In his opinion, this proposed increase on the grant
to Maynooth was the emanation of an enlightened ministry,
and one which wouldprove most beneficial in its results to Ire-
land, while, on the other hand, its rejection would be attended
with the most serious consequences. He could not hesitate to
give his support in favour of this measure, because he looked
upon it not only as one of the wisest, but most judicious pieces
of legislation that had ever been passed in reference to Ireland
since the removal of the Cathoiic disabilities. He had heard it
said that this had been given, not so much as a boon, as an indi-
cation of a continued series of conciliatory measures. He quite
concurred in that, for his own firm conviction was that conces-
sion should be continued to be made so long as a grievance re-
mained unredressed in that country.—( Cheers.) Some Hon.
Members had said that even for this measure Ireland would
not be grateful, but was it because Ireland was ungrateful Eng-
land should be ungenerous ?—( Hear.) But he denied that Ireland
was ungrateful, for they had already seen this measure hailed
with gratitude as a boon in that country.—( Hear, hear.)
But even if it should not be, why had the Irish people not a
right to it ? How could he consider that they had not, when
he remembered how his forefathers in Scotland resisted to the
death the attempt to force upon them a strange faith ?
( Hear, hear.) Much had been said about the agitation that
had existed in Ireland ; but had there been none in Eng-
land? And why should that which had been deemed a virtue
in England be termed a vice in Ireland ? Why should what
was regarded as resistance to oppression here be termed tumult
there • or why should love of liberty here be attempted to be
put down there ?—( Hear, hear.) He would not utter
one word that might be considered as partaking
of partisanship, but this he would say, that if this
act on the part of the Right Honourable Baronet
opposite had been deemed by some as an act of epos-
tacy, he would say that it was an apostacy from bigotry to
truth, and from doubt to consistency. And the Right Hon.
Baronet now came boldly forward, resolved to stand or fall by
the case he had made. out. He ( Lord Dalmeny) would not
further detain the Ho than by saying, that he felt convinced
that many of his conWtuents were as hostile to this measure as
he was friendly to it, but he would ask, was he to think of his
own private or personal interests, when those of the common-
wealth were at stake ? No ; on the contrary, he would say:that
even if his vote upon this measure were to deprive him for ever
of his seat, perish all his aspirations after ambition, rather than
not act with justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Sir C. DOUGLAS, who spoke in a very low tone of voice,
was understood to say, that he would support the measure.
He said he could see no difference between supporting it now,
and supporting it for the last fifty years, except that the pre-
sent measure promised to be more efficacious. They must
look upon the Catholic Church as the church of the majority,
and as such it was entitled to support. This was one of the
reasons why he supported the t.till. He believed it would
have the effect of cementing the union between England and
Ireland, which it was their duty to maintain. He had pre-
sented petitions against this measure, and many from his
constituents. He could not, however, support the prayer
of those petitions, for he considered this Bill as nothing more
than an honest attempt to carry nut a spirit of conciliation to
Ireland. He should give the Bill his cordial support.
Mr. HAWES, for one, would not take upon himself the
responsibility of supporting a proposition to make the question
a subject for annual discussion. He had given the present
measure the fullest consideration, and he had come to the con-
elusion of giving it his support. Ireland was a Catholic
country, and as such it must be governed. This measure was
opening up a new c )ur.,e of policy in this respect to Ireland.
He believed that it would lead to a great reform of the Pro-
testant establishment in Ireland, and that reform would cement
the union between the two countries, and would give security
to both. This Bill was carrying out the principle of the ap-
propriation clause, and he believed that the people of this
country would ere long view that measure with much greater
favour than they did now. As a money grant this measure was
quite trifling; but he believed that it would be lsrge in its
effects. An objection had been raised to this grant on religious
grounds, but how such a line of argument could be supported
he could not understand. This country had supported schools
in India where Christianity was net professed. This country
had made grants for conducting the schools of the Hindoos,
and various other grants of a similar nature might be found on
reference to the records of the East ledia Company. He be-
lieved that it was too late to olj •et to this grant on
religious grounds. The grant must be poked upon as
fur educational purposes. The College of Maynooth
was for the education 01 both the clergy and laity. Ile
could not either see how this grant was to be objected to
by the advocates of the voluntary principle. He could under..
stand an objection from such a quarter, if by this grant it was
proposed to better the principle, that were to be inculcated at
the College of Maynnoth, but this was not attempted ' • conse-
quently, this grant must be looked span in the light of private
endowment, and therefore in accordance with the voluntary
principle. He believed that tli's Bill was far better calculated
to advance religious princirles than any measure which had
been proposed fur several yews past. On there general grounds,
he should give the measure of the Got'ernment his warmest
support.
Mr. HINDLEY respected the sieeerity of the lion. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down more than he admired the argu-
' merits which he had advanced. He believed that the Hon.
Gentleman's constituents would not support him in the course
he had taken. The lion. Gentleman said he would not sup-
port an annual discussion of this question. Why, this declara-
tion was in opposition to the principles of the Honourable
Gentleman himself, formally advanced by him, with re-
spect to annual Parliaments. The argument against
the annual grant to Mayiroath would apply as strongly
if used against the proposition fur annual Parliaments.
Ile did not think that he and others who opposed the measure
could be accused of intolerance, for he would be as ready to
oppose the endowment of the Church to which he belonged,
which was not like the Church of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Dungarvon, the most numererous Church in
the world, but the smallest Church in the world. He declared
that he would rather vote for a repeal of the union than the
present measure, because he believed that the principle in-
volved in this measure was of more consequence.—(Laughter.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Menilwr fir Dungarvon said
that, if this measure were lost, Ashton-under-Lync would be
illuminated. He (Mr. Hindley) would only say in reply that
he always voted for justice to Ireland in that Home, and he
believed that, if justice were done to Ireland, Ashton would be
illuminated for a month.—( Herr, and a laugh.) He did not
think it was fair, therefore, to act:use the dissenters of England,
who supported their own religion and their own ministers,
of bigotry and intolerance. It was no wonder that they should
feel alarmed after the declaration of the Noble Lord the Mem•
ber for Liverpool, the Noble Lord the Member for London, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman the illr mber for Newark. After those
declarations it became a very natural question to inquire if this
measure was to end in itself, or if it was to be the first of a
series of measures ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baro-
net ought to be more explicit, and promulgate the scope of his
whole policy with respect to Ireland.—(Hear hear.) If this
measure were not to be followed up by others, then false hopes
were raised in the minds of the people of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) If it were to be followed by others, then the fears of
the people of England were not half as great as they ought to
be.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Queen was to be sent to
Ireland with gilt gingerbread, but the people of Ireland would
indeed be children if they were satisfied with such measures as
were proposed for their benefit. He would bid higher and go
further than the Prime Minister to conciliate the people of
Ireland, and though at the present moment they might witness
repentant cries and remorse—(Cheers)—yet he and others
who opposed this measure showed that they were better friends
to Ireland than those who made such high professions now. He
remembered, on one occasion, when the Hon. and Gallant
Member for Lincoln proposed the discontinuance of the grant
of 9,0001. a year, in which he was supported by the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Sligo, and the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Armagh, that Mr. O'Connell said he would divide with the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln, if he pressed his mo-
tion to a division, for the Roman Catholic religion did not de-
pend on this paltry grant, and he said also that he was of opi-
nion that every religion should support itself, and then, in one
of those flashes of wit, never surpassed even by him, he said,
" Oh, those Gallant Colonels, they are the Church Militant,
and, if I may venture a parody on them, I would say—.
Three colonels in three distant counties born,
Lincoln, Armagh, and Sligo did adorn,
The first in gravity of face surpassed--
In jollity the next--sobriety the last.
The force of nature could no further go,
To beard the one, she shaved the other two.
--(Much laughter.) He would beg of them not to spend
their time in squabbles respecting differences of religious
opinion—(lronical cheers)—but he would ask what tight had
they to put their hands into the Dissenters' pockets, and call
upon them to pay for an establishment while they were ready
and willing and able to pay for their own religion ?—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland; always
spoke in a bold and manly manner, and he was the only person
who attacked the voluntary principle. Others, indeed, said it
was impracticable, but the Noble Lord said it was not efficient.
Now, he believed that the voluntary principle would be more
practicable than the present measure. He believed that they
could carry out the voluntary principle in Ireland, but they
would never be able to govern Ireland as long as a dominant
Church was supported for the minority. Then as to the
efficiency of the voluntary principle, he would only say that
925,000/. was the amount of money paid for the maintenance
of the ministers of the Dissenting bodies, and at the present
tim the believed it amounted to 1,100,0001. Then for the
expnses of the purchase of ground, and building and law ex-
penses, they subscribed a million annually, and the amount
subscribed for visiting societies and for the distribution o

tra :ts and other loc-al purposes, was estimated at 168,2401:
Th ty also supported theological academies. By the Indepen-
dec ts, as far as he was able to judge, two hundred and twenty
we Tsupperted at an expense of from 7,0001. to 8,4300/. The
Baptists and the Wesleyan s supported similar esta-
blishments, and he believed that the cost of theo-
logical education was not less than 30,0001. per annum.
He was glad that the Church of England was, to a certain ex-
tent, also adopting the voluntary principle. In Manchester
the Church of England was able to build ten new churches by
it; and in his own neighbourhood there were four or five new
churches. His Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford would
consent to give up the connexion of the Church with the
State, and leave it to rest on the voluntary principle. He
believed the Church of England would never display so much
vigour as if it abandoned its crutches and walked with all the
vitality and power of religion itself. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Newark said this measure was only
6d. in the pound, and that it ought to be 20s. He agreed
with him in that, but he combated the prjnciple altogether of
a State connexion with the Church. He thought that the
ight Hon. Baronet had taken a step in the wrong direction,
and he would, therefore, give the motion every opposition in
Mr.en
hispower..—( Hear, hear.)
wla
thm. .
ROUNDis
a Protestant
saidhecould, nfrootmscevcatlyngreilnigiofau,sogurrouonf dsto
prev her
aasj es
limited,ty 's G
and ought to he
overnment,
ile
extended.bel i eve d education
ugihnt A
that,la fnoorotmh
an improved system of eduiciaetir, the people would become more
question whether there should be cited upon this question as a
hear.) He was confident that
moral and more loyal.
.an union or a repeal.--( Hear,
if they rejected this measure it
would give an irresistible impulse
rweatsursnuarentheue
unreonoiffatterecrwli,tith. so rep.al.7-(Hear, hear.) lie
~ wroutd receive with a grateful
nt til)er alit v. Ile did not
place much confidence in the ,14" n 'd'
Ireland,
the Right lion. Gennitleozanantl‘iie
ofl\l the Noble Lord the represe-
who spoke on this occasion the sen-
timents for Roscommon,
scntative of the Howards,
aristocracyer England. Re-
lievingteoioalf,h.and reek-
irin,iself, but
timents of the Roman Catholic
that the measure was
less what the consequence might he
reserving to himself the free. exercise
ment respecting any ulterior measures that!
mightudg
brought forward, lie should give the measure of her 'la' t be
Government, founded, as he thought it was, upon justiejee,san
likely to have beneficial consequences, not a weak or unhesitat-
ing, but a ready and a cordial support.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BItOTHERTON said he voted for the second reading
of the measure, because he believed it likely to promote the

conciliation of Ireland. He was ready to do justice to Ireland
without doing an injustice to the English Dissenters. He
thought that the Roman Catholics were in a peculiar position,
and stood in a different relation to the Established Church
from the Dissenter.—(Hear, hear.) The Dissenters had no
fair claim to the Church property ; but, with regard to the Ro-
man Catholics, they must bear in mind that they were 7-Bths
of the population—that they had been despoiled of their
ecclesiastical revenues, and that they were compelled to sup-
port a Church,from which they derived not the least advantage.
Though he wished to see the present measure, anchnore, accom-
plished for Ireland, he wished to see it accomplished by proper
means.—( Hear, bear.) As long as be had had a seat in that
House he voted for every measure which tended to conciliate or
ameliorate the state of the people of Ireland. He did not think
there was any very great difference between a grant of 9,0001.
which existed for fifty years, and the present grant. But when
he heard the Noble Lord the Member for London say that this
was not merely a grant for the support of education in May-
nooth, but that it involved a great principle, and was the pre-
cursor of other measures, he was led to reflect
where that principle would lead him, and to ask
whether he would vote to support the establishment
of another religion out of the public 'funds. But he (Mr.
Brotherton) would be no party to that bigotry and intolerance,
and " No Popery" cry out of doors, of which he entirely dis-
approved.—( Hear.) He looked upon those things with a dif-
ferent eye from that which the parties themselves viewed each
other. He looked upon the Roman Catholics and their op-
ponents as one great Christian family, all of them having the
same object in view. He voted for the appropriation clause,
and he thought the friends of the Established Church in Ire-
land might be made to do all that was required. Were they
now about to endow priests out of the Consolidated Fund
when they had abundant resources from the surplus funds of
the Church Establishment in Ireland, he should be most
happy to give his support to any measure which
would have the effect of producing so much good,
and which would tend to promote union between
two countries. Happiness and prosperity might be advanced by
the Ministry altering their resolution according to the motion of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield. He could not bring his mind
to support a motion for a grant out of the Consolidated Fund,
which might be the precursor of measures for the entire en-
dowment of the Irish clergy out of the same fund.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said that the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Law )gave notice that he would ask the House not to grant
the money out of the Consolidated Fund, but instead of that
he had submitted to the House the propriety of considering
whether the resolution of the Government should not be taken
tnto consideration that day six months. That was the first
time that he rose to discharge a duty which presented
to his mind nothing but unmingled pain, as lie
was about to vote not only against a very large and
extensive body of his fellow-countrymen and against
a sincere, conscientious, and patriotic excitement which
now laid on the table of the House so many petitions;
but he was about to vote against those to whom he owed the
deepest gratitude and the most profound respect. He had no
personal object for supporting this measure, and, notwithstand-
ing the smallness of pecuniary extent that the motion covered,
he believed it was the basis of a new era of prosperity, because
it was the beginning of an union between Ireland and England,
from which would spring the best events both for one country
and the other. He was aware that great popular feeling had
been excited. He had indeed heard that a celebrated preacher
at Cheltenham had met an elderly lady on his return from
chapel, who had asked him whether they were going totZtAild
the College of Maynooth at Cheltenham, or whether it was
intended thr.t the Pope should take up his residence there, and
be supported by the Government. Now, he had no affiliation
with the Pope ; and though he did not agree with the
elderly lady, yet be at the same time thought that it was neces-
sary that there should be the consent of the country to a grant
like this, and he thought that the consent of the country as well
as of the Government ought to be obtained to a grant of this
nature. They had consented to the support of the religion of
the country in India ; they had consented to endow the Church
of the country in India. They had consented to endow the
Roman Catholic Church in Canada and Malta ; in India ; in
Trinidad ; in the east ; in the west; in the north ; and in the
south ; and he thought it was but talking about terms to speak
of the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland.
The Roman Catholic Church, so far as he conceived, fulfilled
all its offices ; and he knew not why so much question should
be made about the endowment of a Church against. whose
principles there was but a feeble opposition, and in favour of
whose policy they had the results of experience. The object of
this grant was to increase the religious education of the people
of Ireland. He repudiated altogether the notion that this
would interfere with the religions education of the
people of Ireland. He cared not for the question, for
the difference between the Government, and the
Roman Catholics of Ireland. He would n)t treat this as a
matter between the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and the
Protestants of England ; he would not consider it as a ques-
tion between the Government and Mr. O'Connell; but he
would consider it as a matter between the Catholic priests of
Ireland anti the people of this country. This was not his
object. The Reformation could not properly be traced to the
reign of Henry VIII., hut to the time of Wicliffe ; and he
conceived that the established religion was not to be ascribed
to the alteration which had been made three centuries ago,
nor did he ground his opposition to this measure on any poli-
tical grounds.—( Laughter.) He thought that any differ-
ence that might exist was to be ascribed rather to the spirit
of whisky, than to the spirit of religious feeling, and while
he expressed these feelings, he might at the same time
say that his oily consideration was that which had reference
to the feelings of the people of Ireland. It was not the
paltry grant (526,010/. a year which was made to the people
of Ireland that entered into his consideration. lie would tell
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment, that if he made a concession to this extent, he must con-
ceive that it would not thus stop He would not refer to the
case of America which had been adduced. He would not ad-
duce the agitation which had been excited on this question—
he would look on the result of that agitation as a fait accompli,
and conceived that it would be better in no way to bring that
agitation into this debate. He had put his thoughts hurriedly
together—(Laughter)—and had he had mere time he might
have made his speech shorter than he otherwise would have
done Ile had intended to make his opposition on the second
reading, but had thought it better to reserve it to this position
of the question, and give his adhesion to the motion, that the
motion be read that day six months.
Mr. FOX MAULS rose and said, that after troubling the
House at some length on a former occasion, it was with some
regret that he rose at that hour, but he thought it right to
notice some personal allusions to the conduct which he had
thought right to follow with reference to his vote on that
question. The Hon. Friend he meant had thought it right to
attack him for having attended a public meeting on that sub-
ject, and he had endeavoured to make him responsible for lan-
guage spoken at that public meeting, and for resolutions agreed
to there. He (Mr. Fox Meade) did not hold that parties pre-
sent, or even presiding at a public meeting, had a right to be
held responsible for all that might be said in the heat of argu-
ment or in debate on a question of such prominent importance
and of such great public interest ; because it
was only on such occasions that individuals could
give expression to their feelings on this question,
and it was but excusable that strong language should be al-
lowed them. Was he to be responsible for the language held
there, any more than he should be held responsible for the lan-
guage used by Hon. Members in that House ? Was he to be
held responsible for the resolutions passed there, any more
than for the resolutions brought before that House or the no-
tices of motion which might appear upon the paper ? No ; he
could not be held responsible for that language or those resolu-
tions, but he would tell the Hon. Member for Sheffield, that
if he were to put down those meetings, he would be doing a
great public injury, inasmuch as those meetings had their rise
in public opinion. At those places the expression of public
opinion found a vent, however strong the language was in which
the public expressed that opinion, he thought it better
for the House at once to know and hear it. Having said these
few words with reference to that point, he would now pro-
ceed to notice some of the arguments which had been used
on the measure before the House, because in discussing the
measure at present, arid in voting for the motion of the Hon.
and Learned Recorder for London, he confessed at once that
he voted for that motion with the simple view of putting a
stop to the Government measure. The Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government had stated that Hon. Members
in that House had already assented to the general principle of
endowments in passing the annual grant to the College of
Maynootb, but he (Mr. Fox Manic) was very certain that
those who consented to the measure containing the clause
which enabled the parties to endow such an institution in
voluntary principle, would think it very hard if, by giving their
vote, they were to be supposed pledged to the general princi-
ple of endowments. The endowment of a seminary established
solely for the education of the Irish priesthood, and what was
in his opinion a still more lamentable termination, the perpe-
tual endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy.--( Hear, hear. )
The Noble Lord on this side of the House looked forward to
that event with the most sanguine expectations—( Hear)—
and the Right Hon. Baronet on the other side did not deny
that such an event might Happen,—(Cheers.) But the grant
was to be taken from the Consolidated Fund of the
country. That fund was raised from the taxes paid
by the people of this country. Now, he had
heard an Honourable Member, in the course of that
debate, term this a paltry sum not worth contending for.
They had sufficient evidence of the generosity of the British
public, in granting the enormous amount derived from the
income-tax. They represented to the public that such a tax
was necessary for the purpose of meeting the exigencies of the
State, and of placing this country in the proud position which
it had in former times maintained. The British public came
forward with a generosity that eprprised him (Mr. Fox
Mauls), and had no doubt surprised tfao Right Hon. Baronet
also ; for they had scarcely given any opposition to his measure.
Was such a generous public likely to quarrel with this sum of
26,0001., because of the munificence of the gra;.'t ? No—it
was upon principle that they opposed it.—(Heal.; They
quarrelled with this endowment because it was to be Carried
out at their expense, and in violation of their conscientious
feelings on the subject.—(Cheers.) It had been said that the
"No Popery " cry had been raised against this measure. He
(Mr. Fox Mule) did not know what was meant by that s
word.-.-( Hear, hear, and great laughter.) Did it mean the I
same thing that the .. No Popery " cry of Ins did ? (Hear,
hear.) He might say it did not, for that cry had been raised
against the possession by Roman Catholics of the civil liberties
which Protestants then enjoyed. The opponents of that
measure of justice said, that if they took off the dis-
abilities which affected Roman Catholics, individuals
of that persuasion would sit in Parliament and have power
to intermeddle with the laws by which they themselves were
governed. Then was raised the cry that by such a course
they invaded the Constitution of the country—the No Popery
cry was then directed against Roman Catholics, to pre-
vent their enjoying the privileges to which they were justly
entitled, and the possession of which could not possibly injure
the Protestant religion of the country.—( Hear, hear.) But
the case was very different here. They proposed to do more
now for the Roman Catholics of Ireland than they did then.
Instead of merely granting them civil liberties, they now pro-
posed to endow the Roman Catholic seminaries. They pro-
posed to remove them from thesupervision of the State, and they
were thus establishing a principle which would, in his opinion,
lead to the final endowment of the Roman Catholic Church
itself.—(Cheers.) Surely these men had a right to express
their conscientious opinions upon that subject without being
anseththeerworutgldhttenromr
istu, hjs'eecrtyedhatod tchrye odofiugm,Noofptuhpisercyr.y7o,
Itf twhai ss,
just to raise that objectionable term against men who acted
, N
s,oleloy
penopceorny ” conscientious
iousngorwor ashy did they not complain ofds ; but if they complained of that
it at other times ?—( Hear, hear.) That cry was raised

I. ofrodr iralrd _r
el be urna
—raised,
,h
ew
Governmentouidi n IsBa3y7:
in a
11 its
1838,183,
aagndai;stso forward
or;ginal purity.—(Laughter.) If that Gr,yernment spoke of
mdzlibnygllhveith,,
the
municipal
from whom 4.id this cry
ions in Irel.,^nd, they were
No Popery"uni eiPa
l e
c r;.
Baronet was a member and the leader. They (the 'Tories)
proceed ? From the very party of which the Right Hon.
never tried to put down this cry. They made all the use .of
.it
they could then, and now when they found something sinnUr
against themselves they were the very first to complain of it. 1
The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had stated that he had al-
Illi,e7eatd 'thhee
ways discountenanced this priseeeding. —( Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Fox Mettle) would say, that when he heard the " No Popery"
Rhiagdht
,rl. made use of against the Government to which he himself
heard no disclai.merhifgrorm.eitrleiemeßnitgbint.toHoopni
nourable Baronet ; and when he heard the other da
Baronet in position gave countenance Hon.
that after the to the No Popery ery, , he thought
ie statements latermade by the Right
Hon.
Baronet, the House had
tion of the course which a right to have a public explana-
taken oa that occasion, he (the Right Hon. Baronet) had
At a meeting in Glasgow the