The Sun.
London, England, 1819-03-09 00:00:00

SCOTCH BURGHS.,

A Petition was presented from the Royal Burgh
of,Ayr, against the system of returning Members
to Parliament for the Royal Burghs in Scotland.
A Petition was also presented from the town of
Kilmarnock, against the manner of striking the
,iverage price of Corn in Scotland.
Each of these Petitions was read,,acrd ordered
tope upon the table.
OFFICERS IN THE NAVY.

Sir I. COFFIN wished to know whether the
same allowance had been made to Officers in the
Navy, which, on a former night, had been
stated to have been made to Officers in the
Army ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that whatever indulgence should be given to the
Army %runicl also he extended to the Navy.
LIMERICK ELECTION.

Sir R. WILSON said, that lie had received a let-
ter from Mr. Maunsell, stating, that from ill
health and his advanced .time of life, he should
not be abl# to attend before the House' until
Thursday. He therefore moved, that the order
of the House for Mr. Maunsell's attend:ince
should be put off until that day,—The motion
was agreed to.
PENRYN ELECTION.

The adjourned debate was then resumed on the
motion for a new writ for Penryn, in the room
of :Cir. Swami, whose election bad been declared
void.

Sir C. BURRELL, in rising to speak on this ques-
tion, begged to assure the House that he took it
up solely on public grounds, as he had no con-
nexion whatever with the Borough of Penrvn,
nor with any individual connected with it. He
proceeded to take a comprehensive view of the
Report of the Committee, 'commenting, as he pro-
cee►led, on the evidence given for and against the
late Member. He showed that it appeared, fron►
the test itnony of various witnesses, that a nismber
of individuals had received sums of Money, varying
from 81. to 251., to influence their votes. He
pointed out some inconsistencies in the irroceed-
ings of the Committee; and on a view of all the
circumstances of the case, he declared himself in
favour of throwing open the borough. This did
not appear to him one of those wild schemes of
reform from which danger could be apprehended,
but one that might be adopted with benefit to the
country. It was not for him at present to pro-
pose that the borough of Penryn should be dis-
franchised, but he would move for a Committee
to inqui►e farther into certain c►►rrupt practices
and illegal transactions which appeared to have
been in progress previous to, and during the late
election for, Pentyn.
The SPEAKER begged to suggest that this sno-

lion could hardly be received as an amendment 012
thesnutcoht i oc
ansfeosrl,amr
bteienw,r itto,
veentitili:te rtshael
sprpaccai,e
ticeri
mo
in
should not issue his writ till a certain day,
thus put off the proceeding front time to time II"
a decision had been come to on the merits of th.e
case. This course, in the preseut Instauce,
it
would be most proper to pursue.
Sir C. BURRELL felt obliged to The Speaker for
setting him right. He wo.ild then move that the
issuing of the writ should be suspended for a
week.—('s A month" was here called out by se;
veral voices.)—As it seemed to be the feeling 01
the house that a longer period should be named,
he would move that the writ should nut be issued
till that day month.
The CHANceetma of the EXCHEQUER had greac
difficulty in rising' to discuss this question, 83 bC
must confess, that he had not been able to paY
that close attention to the subject which it de"
served. from its importance, not only to the Cl'ai
racier of many individuals, but to the character °
the House itself. He however could find in the
statement of the Hon. Gentleman nothing th3`,
ought to induce the House to alter the constitution
of the Borough in question, by throwing it NI::
to those who had not heretofore enj,iyed the ri.gh;
of voting. It had undoubtedly been shovel),
several instances of bribery had occurred, but 111.
thing had been proved that went so far to incur'
pate the great body of the electors as (0
a measure of such severity. In a case wherel:
punishment must fall on the innocent as we';
teY
the guilty, the House ought to pause before
decided on taking the course %Intel; had neen," :
commended to them. He could tint (
eoneeiceal
more injurious precedent than that which VV°;o6'
be established if the House were to appoint le.,
Committee, as hail been proposed, to try the to
cision of another, with the same witoes"°. g
examine, with precisely the means of Ghtai::,l%
infoimation. The result of this miicht
the two Committees would make reports or "16
opposite character, and then he should wilt) of
know what part was the House to act ?—(Cries, of
No.)-11 he understood the motion, the otTehis
it was to obtain another Committee,
,but
new-Committee, like the former, couhl nor "6,-,0
the power of exemining• witnesses on oath, 11
could not perceive that any benefit would be likeet
to arise from such a proceeding. In every Win,
case, where a Borough hail been thrown 0':
it has been proved, that a great majorirY tthie
voters were corrupt. In the preseut instance
had not been proved, but there had been a g°".,
deal of loose surmise, and a great deal al g"3',1)::
and tittle-tattle, as was common on the Occj'i-
of a contested election, butt nothing hail bee" I:he
sitively proved against the great body Of ‘tea
voters. Under these circumstances, he "'pc,
the House would not go farther against the e,-tei
tors generally, whatever steps they might.l .12
themselves called upon to take in order to 13°'

particular individuals.
itt""
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH agreed with the tie
cellor of the Exchequer (and he feared it vv''' :he •
only point on which they could agree) trist stet
otfhethe
question was of great importance to the cliiir6iien
of that House. If ever there were a period keep
goodseik faith
lewviittny
it was more important than at any other to
ith
11 was sorry to hear the Right HO"' Gutlea of
public, it wdatsi:rtiltee,tPraTeil:Ti
a contested election, in gossipa el;:eBowhere there
beet such scandalous and iufamouL
The present motion did not go, as the Right
l.
Gentleman supposed, to disfranchise the borWig.ki,
but merely to declare that a prima facie COse
made out for further inquiry. When the llil,
Hon. Gentleman opposed himself to this, h7e slier
ed to forget that within these few years °"'mince
election had been declared void at the smile i ile nissr
and for the same reason that had caused thC 0,
Members to lose their seats. Bat' then the "
cellor of the Exchequer said it would be re,:t1.11.::
ing the question decided by the.. Election 'i be
mittee. He (Sir. J. M.) maintained ve°'d'hol
no such a thing. The Election Commiliciebeerk
closed for ever on the question which 10," otei-
referred to it, but that had transpire" be
dentally which made it a proper (tocsin' if the
entertained, whether the general state °
Borough of Penryn ought not to be in sornegoo.
altered. The objection which the Itigbi —,c-
Gentittnin had scented to urge ttgaiust the prone
Lice of the Committees of that Holm, uu acc°e,
of their not examining Members on oath, era'„od
objection to the constitution of Parliament,
went to declare that mode of obtaining ivt°rl:o-(1'
tion which had been resorted to by the° 1„e.
their ancestors as inefficient. Against the 6-0( -
nine that Parliamentary proceedings sitoula
be founded on evidence such as they had bee°
customer to receive, because it was not gibren
oath, he most enter his protest. The late C°l-1,1
mittee appointed to inquire into one abase)
ire(
incidentally become acvainted with a syltes"
tv
corruptipn into which they had no busineo tb
inquire, any further than as it %Vag COnneCtel.:44 sr
that particular election. He did not say
present was stiflicient to disfranchise the ber,°4o,juse
but it became a fair question, whether the ", be -
should not inquire if other matter might 013 g,
found that would justify them in transfer Rise
front the present Electors to others, that franc ld
which had been so grossly abused. He sh°t-
most heartily vote for the motion.
Mr. A. Waiou'r said, that very early "1, ,be
'Committee, so early as on the second day,,"
man
inquiry, he had heard more than one Gentle
talk as if the borough was to be disfranchise`lie,
(The Hon. Gentleman spoke in so low a t°„°o-
that it could not be understood whether be

posed or soppOrted the motion.) p full
Mr. F. DOUGLAS was prepared to go tar the
length of the Eton. Baronet who propose" -of
motion. lie was less of a reformer than mct
those xylw sat near him. But on that
ground he %%89 the more anxious, when alt isolBoe
case of this kind came forward, that so fit a"
portunity of correcting an abuse' should 01.00
passed over. The greatest
practical corruPibe
in the system of our representation was •tiji
smaller close boroughs. He could not agree "qof
'hose who talked of the corruption in the casefe,
this borough not haying
been
proved to belng
fiend. Bat to jiistily the liouse prnceetlioo
tI
f,irther, it was not necessary that the c""IP.
sboild have been proved before the Corninitt"

a

0

be
6g,

r

".

,c

corn
one of the lebdireg e'ases oo tlrfs solject, the
‘si:LlPtina had not heeir pioved to be universal;
of t:.P:iitrßnElT said' he coald not partake
wasthat virtuous indigbation at a practice which
ea,r,ried on to as great an extent in every
-ter soorough its the kin.dom as in this onfor-
ta.n, ate Borough of Penrvn..---,(No, no!
:_ttles of the House.)—Tbote who from all
were present
ryas the House about ten years ago., wlren a charge
made against one of his Majesty's Ministers,
14 who recollect that the House fin that occa-
tlon'refused to i
!orr nstitote a general imptiry into the
uptions of the Borough System, must recol-
teet that it ryas then stated iii the House that the
e xlstence of these corrupt practices was as open
e
1.3 the sun
that all the Boroughs in the kingdom. were
rta the same situation With respect to these core
,ttpt practices as the Borough of Penryn. 'There-
fore all declarations of abhorreoce at these prac-
te" were merely speciosa verha re inania. He
,1.6111`l riot agree to sio.le out this one 130
Hers -
OuKhhe
the•‘e very ngea:rce of the House, when all
same situation. II the evil
di admitted, its genet ality must also be admit-
s: ' and they should adopt some venet al meo-
He would ask those Gentlemen who
"N°'' to iris assertion that the corrtrWroi
as
general, whether there was less of it in (Jul
r::11) than in Peuryn ? In short, Mr. Swann
Celt
,emher o f the House that he
6gllops : e%ery Nl
as guilty as himself—mute/a nomine de to fa-
tnlj Yet he most be declared so highly
Rio e, and
t hi
en
d ibganraet i(:1)f
mentionF
St rouse e evf
ery
Il‘hree
nt:bffeer':—c
e
the
ile4th the evidence before the Committee, it ap-
red that the price of a vote in Penryn was
17:
/• which was very
0
moderate—not above
e 1
jf "soal market price of 2.500/. for a seat.—
pal tliis was an evil, there should be a gene-
thrlniry, and for want of that the chat ec:
thtit'i the House was lost in the country. H
sk,:fore enold not agree to 'take any further step
'lst this boron.%) nor could he agree to the
3sttreu hicii had been adopted towards' ' Mr.
4,:un• if the borough system was to continue,..
tii.0111(1 rather have boroughs openly salean
L'o'lleW many Gentlemen who would very sed-
felirl'i give 40001. or 50001. for a seat in the House,
luirtl4, „the of an opportunity to propose
,netiesea:
rale,,B,,"'hieb they believed would be for the
iteeviletage
arlr lIRAND.said he would not 'yield to the Hon.
it)11°611" who spoke last, nor to any other perit tiesott,
must zeal for a I%rlia but mentary Reform,
Inotest against his doctrines. He was most
it,i x
ou le`as that a thorott.h reforni shoUld teke pl.eace
rePresentative -system. And he really h.
that battle this time some effectual mea-
siire
tl 11 w°lll4l have been adopted towards effectiug
a
rts.leatl•it not been for the wild and
ithit "ary scheme which the Hon. Baropet bad been
lle.t"le"tal obtiuding on the House, e,()„"!"1.Y.--(Louil cheer ing.)—But and on
when such
alltier%"„were proposed tinder the name of' Reform.,
"f trta:":alper,Otts Were deterred from the pursuit
1 vim -vagant
I)l4l,``'llect by the odd, violent, at"
%le l'araPos-ed tinder its nanae.--(Nlnch cheering,)
ttesltt,4 not one of those who, because no genenraa!
14,1101 e wg, adopted, woohl refuse the fetourte,
he, Particular part of rife system.—(
tin!' ''eat I the Chancellor of the Ex-
d)-laer 11.(7--` t t:
1 Commi, tee had 7eio„ ',him that because t
I' it "Poo the merits•of the last Election, that
it'te,;"ase Was precluded froin.revising the s.o -
‘°s.sr 411 that 'the Committee had to enquire into
ittrelle last Election ; and they had wisely t,e-
sibt:,4' all evidence that went beyond the lucre
114 yet of their ing„ity._,Bot, nevrrtbeless, enough
lioee°llle out ou that investigation to satisfy I
'!rat they must proceed farther.
..
Ie.CHAISOELLoti of the ExCHECWERCXpIainee.
lie had -no objection to postitone the
hit, of the writ
.--(llear, hear 1.)
ken litAumnicr spoke- -shortly for 0)7 amend-
to • MARTIN said, that his principal objection
t4t.le 1""lio u'vas, that' it tended to Pall iamen-
'l4 14Ltt.°Fol of the worst species. He was more
.
'lr'sed to th i
e impose' of (he Hon. Baronet
_
r
/1;i-1411.4'0, that if any inquiry was necessary, it
r`lbe a general one. He thought that no
l'ttytlifler who had ever voted against Parliamen-
ll'ti- -‘eforni could vote for further enquiry into
Nt'l'easC* No general corruption had been.proved
th`ehost the borototh, and it was unjust to pontii
4%1111 ianY the transgressions of the few. ,
to therefore vote against any socu proposal
eri git a species of premature Parliamentary
11fir.
ANKBS agreed, that in cases where gross
11 tl PatPable corruption was proved against the
h l
esthtY 61. elfunOts, ' disfranchisement was the
is.°ll4' r
c alict'eal mode of effecting a moderate Ree-
'est it was impossible to resolve on th
5/.(isi :Ide of Proceeding in this case, without
i
bate kepi's bow. they had acted in others of
bad TO the delay in issuing the writ he
Prece:l)4)b.leetion`; but he was not aware of any
itititif"ellt for appointing a second Committee to
Itluile into a ease of this kind ; and he was not
kn. rig to proceed to such a measure unless he
Ix
Sir j aY Plainly before hon.
h, (IN Na'XPORT thought that the House
""tmd to proceed further this matter. 1 he
th'eld-bills which /tad been produced went to affect
ret) great body of the Electors. If it were con-
otld that tire House, by the Report of this
tillaittee. was precluded from
4,e.1:, it would proceeding for-
go to this—that the House would
taustlicate the right of pi (needing further in every
s'qhere' unless, in the return of °or inoividual Mem-
at one individual El t• vidence of cor-
eec ton, C
bPtiQh the whole body of Electors could
Proveil, appear in this case, that meet-
_„.tr the g, were held by ittf. ,rest bodies of the Electors Electo to
mselves tor sale. The cry svio2--.. Ham
Swami given the breakfast ?"--" N"
;_ ,yo thitk hi' eive von Ge br,-akfest ?"
3, " 1)0\111 Wi!ll Mr. Swann, then !" It
t(Cty 'e rrY----'` Great is Dimn of the Ephesiaos !"
.'ght‘,L)----No vote noless the breakfast, and
;;I:cywenty-fotir ponni„ a (man. was a case
rititli the 110,ISe as
and to vindicate itscll)luttrl'odmtol the aspersions
of )rnteeri
ng corruption.
betiv,l"-._ W mtetv, as a Member of the Convoi' tee,
Say a few Words. It aneared that Mr.

Swann had
endeavoured to retorrn toe corropttob,
ix-11kb had prevailed i.ri-this-Borough. 'This ins-
pleased
,the Electors, and they sent_ to London for
a new Candidate, the report of whose wealth ex-
cited their hOpes. llThen this new Candidate
came down, Mr. Swann was obliged to have re-
course to the old system. He appeared in public,
and held up a large bag of money, calling out—
" Here is plenty of money, my boys, b,,t I must
not give it you myself or I might be turn-
ed out of the House.'' But be beckoned his
agent into a room, and the money was afterwards
distributed, Mr. Anderton, the other Can-
dhlate, then circulated a band-bill., declaring
that Mr. Swann had been guilty of notorious and
public bribery, and that all votes given to him
were thiown away. Mr. StVann returned the
compliMent, and pnblished a similar bill against
Mr. Anderton. The .bribery oath had not been
administered ; and, indeed, it was well known
thai in the borougus of Cornwall, if any Candi-
date was so impolitic as tti require an Elector 'to
take the bribery oath, he would he sure to lose
his election. These were the facts which came
out before the Committee.

Mr. WY s N begged the House to observe, that
not only iu the present case, but in 1807, gross
corruption had been proved against•this borough
—thirre gross than any ever proved, Vibich had
not been followed up by any nieas ore for a dis-
franchisement. He Ititiritted-, that taking the mi-
nutes of evidence before the Cotnmittee as they
now stood, there was not sufficient ground for
directly rroceetling to legislate upon the sub-
ject. But there was enough on those minutes
to. call for fulther inquiry. 'the argument -0f
the Honourable Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett)
teas, that, because in a case ten years ago the
House had refused to institute a general in-
quiry into abuses of this nature, that. therefore iu
the present case no inquiry should he made ; that
because the House had 'ejected such a proposal
so many years ago, therefore it should 110 W re-
fuse to vindicate its honour. But the Hon.

Baronet went farther. He said that Mr. Swann
hart dtme no more than was done by every Member
in the House, and might sdy to every man now
present, innicqo nomine de to Muhl narratur. This
wai, a gross calumny against the House.—(Hear;
hear, hear !)—lt was utterly false.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)—The Honourable Baronet might
speak for himself, for he best knew how far his
own case resembled that of Mi. Swann.—(Loud
cheering.)—But to say that every Member in the
House had been guilty of such practices was a
calumny. As tar as regarded himself,- he must
say, it wag wiioily false.—(Muchr cheering.)—
And looking round on both sales of the House he
saw many Hon. Members tor whom he would
venture to say, that the assertion as against them
was calumnious and false.—(Cheering )

Sir F. BIIRDF.TT.—" i!,e Hon. Gentleman who
just at (town says. that I accused every Member in
the 11nn4e of Corruption. That was nut my state-
ment.' I said, thrt every Member for a rotien
Borough Ivid been as guilty as Mr. Swann.—(No,
no, from ail sides of the House.)---If
.the Hon.
Member, or any otter, says that I made a diffe-
rent' staternent, I sty he says what is false."
Mr: WyNN—" I certainly did understand most
distinctly that the Hon. Baronet made the charge
generally against all the Members of the House."
—(Yes; yes; from all sides of the House, and
cheering.)
Mr. V. BLAK PH;(1 a few words in 60 kw a
tone as to be inaudible in the.gallery.

Mr. CALVERT said, that as the lion. Baronet
(Sir F.But(kit) had confirmed his charge as against
Boroughs, he must say, if be included the Borough
of Southwark, tire charge was false.—(Hear,
.hear !) •• • • •
Sir F. BURDRTT said, after his former disa-
yowal, it was hard to be thui petsonally called
:upon. lie allirirabii-trrirratrirßorougbs.
Sir R. WiLsosr rose with much' Warnith and.ex-
,clained;iliat if anything had been said which could
be construed into in imputation against the-Bo
rough of Southwark, he (Sir It. Wilson) would
not have stiffered it to pass.—(Lond laughter ! )
He wished for a general_ Reform, but -could not
.agree to pass over so flagrant an instance as the
Borough of Penryn, though a general measure
Hcvold not now be carried.

Sir C. BURRELL said be would agree to fix the
time for issuing the writ to a fortnight.
The CRANCELLOII Of theERCHEQUER said, that
as the lion. Baronet (Sir C. Burrell) had agreed
to make the period or delay only a fortnight in-
stead of kmonth, it entirely obviated his objec-
tion, to the motion.

The ;notion of Sir C. BURRELL was then
agreed to.
Sir C. BURREI.L then moved—" That a Corn.
mittee be, appointed to enquire into certain cur.'
rupt practices alleged to exist previous to, and
at the late election for the Borough of Penryn."
Mr, BatiFis wished to know if a Select COin-.
mittee was intended.. 'He. hoped the motion
%void(' not
.now he pressed, but that the debate
would be adjourned to an early day. But if the
motion was now pressed upon the House, he must
dissent, and take the sense of the House upon it,
He moved, as an amendment, that the debate be
postponed till Wednesday.
Lord C. Cnuttcumt. protested against any ad-
journment of the debate on this motion.
Mr. F. DOUGLAS wished the House to decide
ttpon the motion immediately.
Mr. TIERNEY said he would be glad to hear
any good reason for adjourning the debate. There
were only two modes by which the inquiry could
be made, by a Select Committee, or a Committee
of the whole House. He was for the latter mode.
Mr. BANKES said, there were four modes—the
two mentioned by the Right Honourable Gentle-
man, and two others, namely, to have a Bill
brought in at once for the disfranchisement of the
Borough and to int todoce the inquiry on i:, or to
have anfinquiry at, the liar. He had no purpose
to serve by wishing the adjournment of the de-
bate further than that he wished to consider the
subject deliberately.
Mr. TIERNEY explained.
A!tyr a few words from Mr. SrIITH (of Cam.
,!A.idge), Sir J. MACKINTOSH, and Mr. WYNN, the
debate was &Mourned to Wednesday.
O;t the ;notion of Mr. WYNN the further con-
' sideration of the Report of the Committer: on the

renryn blectiOn ira3
postponed tdi LUIS WV se U•
night.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. S. BOUfiNP. ro‘e to wove that the Poor
Laws' Amendment Bi!I he re-committed. .lie
was desirous that no tune should'be lost in pro-
ceeding with the Bill, and he (lid tibt anticipate
any delay, as it contained no enactment which
had not been already agreed to by both gouses of
Parliament. Ile hoped that it would be passed
in time to have it in operation before Easter.

The House then resolved itcelt into a Commit-
tee On the Bill, in which the varions clauses were
agreed to, aher a temp words from Mr. Ommanney,
Mr. S. Boorne, Sir C. Mood:, Mr. T. L. IVel-
lesley, Mr. Hurst, Mr. N. Calvert, Mr. Palmer,
Alderunin Wood, Mr. Willia,ms, .Mr Court e•
nay, and Mr. Prwheroe.
Mr. WAITHMAN also wished the clause to be
modified. .

The SOLACITOR•GENEIIAL defended it.
A division then took place.
For the Clause 91
For tl:c Anieuthuient
Majority for the original clause
The House then resumed, and the Report %vas
ordered to be received to-morrow.