The Sun.
London, England, 1819-05-11 00:00:00

SCOTCH JURY COURT BILL.

Sir A. CAMPBELL presented a petition from the
ers of the Signet in Edinburgh, praying to
be heard by Counsel against the Scutch Jury
Court Bill.

The 'Joni) ADVOCATE said he should opPoie
the prayer of the petition. It wag rather strange
!le thought, that though this Bill was pending in
the House since the 10th of March, no petition'
had been presented against it until now, when
:here was an Order of the Day for its committal.
He could not listen to any proposition for
lay. The good.effects of Juries in civil cases were
now too fully felt in Scotland to allow any doubt
to be entertained of their utility : besides the
present measure had received the sanction of every
Judge in that country.

Mr.- W. SMITH thought that the petition might
be brought up.
Mr_ J. 12. GRANT expressed his surprise at the
appearance of a petition from go respectable a
body of men, as the undersigned were, against a
Bill which was all but passed. He apprehended
that their reluest could not be entertained by the
House. The Bill 'was a Public Bill, and when
the petitioners prayed to be heard by Counsel
against it, they should have stated bow far it was

111,elY ailk.ct private intere!ts. tlinugl)t
the tneapntre one of the most important benefit!
to Scotland, and that its progre-s should not he
delayed.---'llse petition was °Meted to lie the
table.

Lord CASTLEItEAGII postponed a motion for a
Bin to extend the Charity School Comntission,
standing in the Orders of the DIN', for to-morrow.

ARMY ESTIMATEA;

On the motion that the Report of the Coill-
mittee of Supply be brought tip,
Sir li. PARNELL rose to oppose the .Resolu-
tions voting the soros on the Army Estimates,
In the present situation of the country, the force
now proposed to be maintained W S mix!' more than
was necessary for a Pace Establisbnieot. It was
the duty of the Noble Lord opposite to make ottt
why it was necessary to maintain so large a force.
It appeared that the income of the country was
at present short of the expenditure by no less a
sum than 14,000,000/. stetting. Any person
who had read the Report of the Finance Com-
mittee must see; that taking into consideration
every item, the only addition to the income of
the Country, during time next year, that could
now be calculated on, was about a million and a
half. The most perfect tranquillity now reigned,
both at home and abroad, yet a large and for-
midable army Was kept on foot, at an immatise
expense. With respect to that part of the vote
which related to the maintenance of the army in
It eland, it was a question closely connected
with the system of civil government in that coun-
try ; for he was convinced tom the great ansount
of the military force now required for that coun-
try, was owing to the defects of the system of
civil government adopted in that parr of ' the
kingdom. It had all along been overlooked in
the discussions relative to the military force, in
Ireland, that the Yeomanry in that country were
a species of force peculiarly applicable tool ser-
viceable for
pre- purposes that made the military
necessary in that country. The expenses of the
Staff department in Ireland were enormous ; ten
times as great as that of Scotland. Ireland and
Scotland contained as nearly as posSible the same
number of acres, yet while the estimates of the
Staff department of Scotland was only 1,9001.
that for Ireland was 19,0001. The great mistake
with respect •to the government of. Ireland was
this—that a system of conciliation in the Go-
vernment hatl not been pursued. Every thing
was done by force in the Government of Ire-
land, and the consequence was, the maintenaoce
of the great military force now required for that
country.
Colonel DAVIES said he entirely agreed whit the
opinion of the lion. Bart, who had just sat down.
The military force now proposed was of an extent
unexampled in the annals of our history, He
was convinced that a lunch smaller number of
men than was mentioned in the.estimates would
be sufficient for all the military service now re•
quired. But as be was not in possession of the
necessary offirial documents, he was not prepared
to say to what extent a reduction in the number
of men was practicable. He was, however, now
ready to show to the House, that even without
reducing the numbers there might be a clear sav-
ing to the country of 120,0001. On the cavalry,
he thought there might he a saving to the extent
of 30,0001. and on the infantry of 90,0001. As
to the cavalry, lie contended that the number of
officers and non-commissioned officers now at-
tached to every 36 men, were quite competent to
mapage and driil 54 men. By making this alter-
ation, and some others less important, he was
convinced a saving to - the extent which he had
mentioned might be easily made. As to . the
infantry, he contended,, by diminishing the
number of battalions, and diminishing the num-
ber of Officers and Non-commissioned Officers its
proportion to the number: of Privates, in. the
same manner as he had mentiolved With respect to
the cavalry. He was aware that it would be ob-
jected to this plan of diminishing the expense,
that in case a war suddenly broke out, It would
occasion a greater difficulty in raising a disci-
plined army for service. But it it .was re-
quired suddenly to .increase the establishment,
even on his plan, the cavalry might be almost
immediately increased by 10,000 men; and the
infantry by 16,000. :Comparing the. amount of
the military force now maintained in the filth
year Of peace after the American .War, it was
three times greater. As to what he had said on
Friday, relative .to the Military College, he had
been a good deal misunderstood. His objections
to that establishment were by nomeans
to the sessior department of it, but ou;',,
junior'. Being aware. of the lea a ~ieation in
which the Officers- ofthe Arn,y',sete now placed,
nothing but a .sense of the distressed :situation of
the people of the kingdom at large could induce
Ilion to propose. any .thing which, would go to
diminish their prospects of professional
vancement. He concluded by, moving as an
amendment, that instead of 258,0001, being
granted by the first Resolution on the Estimates,
the sum of 138.0001. be substituted.
Lord PALMERSTON said, no man could be more.
sensible than hirnself.of time necessity,
.in time pre-
sent situation of the country, that the Military
Establishment should be fi,xed at the lowest scale
of force ow: expense :which was consistent with
safety. But it. appeared to hint, that the Hon.
Meteber who spoke last had very touch overrated
the extent of the saving, and onder-rated the in-
conveniences attending his plan. Upois the re-
etartoce'of hustilit.ies, bow could the force be
increased on the HonoUrable Gentleman's plan,
without raising battalions amd new corps There
were many stations in the West Indies of such a
mouse, that it the amount of the regiments was
unWiehly, it would be exeeediugly , difficult to
break it up, in such a way as to distribute it
among these stations. Ott the other baud, if the

plan of the lion. Centleman was adopted, the in-
convenience, in case of a new war, would be
most serious. - But even upon that plan it would
be impossible to save more than 31,0001. If it
were adopted, it must be considered that there
would he the unattached pay of General Otli-
Cers—half-pay 10 Officers reduced—increased al-
lowances to Captains—increased expenses of
Agency, &c. bring in the whole au expense of
114,0001. Besides this, there would be an int
hiediate expense of 14,0001. in carrying the plans
into execution. When the inevuvenieuces of Vie

plan were considered, and the amount of the im-
media:c expense of carrying it into execution,
the saving ot 31,0001• conk! be no inducement to
adopt it. , The one Officer to each
troop and company enabled 32,000 men to be
raised almost immediately, in ease of the sodden
occurrence of a war. The difference ot ex-
pense in raising these 32,000 on the present plan,
by adding tkern to the establishment, and in
raising them by new regiments anti battalions,
on the Hon. Gentleman's plan, would be no less
than '330,0001.
.These statements, be thought,
would be, sufficient to show how inexpeuient
it would,h, 'o adopt that plan. An objection had
been made to the sep,Tarion of the office of Se-
cretary at War front that of Paymaster-General.
and Comptroller of Army Accounts, hilt it pro-
ceeded on a mistake or ignorance of the duties of
these offices. The Payinaster-General was a re-
sponsible office, under the cheek and controul of
the Secretary at War; and it they were united,
it would he the union of discordant duties in one
public officer., anti making the same person both
accountant and examiner of his.own accounts.—
As to' the Comptroller or Army Accounts, the
same observation was applicable, As to the ob-
jections to the Military College, they were Wl-
fonnded. Stich an establishment could not be
more rropetly conducted than under the direction
of 'Such an experienced Officer as the gallant
Genetal (Sir Alexander Hope) who now , go-
veined it.
Sir Fl. PS RNELL explained. _ _ .

Mr. Cs GRANT (Chief Secretary for Ireland),
after vindicating the military arrangement, rev-
ed the resolution of Government to embrace
every opportunity-for retrenchment, • by the abo-
liths of the important office of Secretary at War
for Ireland.
A' \EW MEMBER ridiculed the insinuations of
the gallant Officer, that the-army would be con-
siderably increased, consequently the expellee
increased also, by the number of Officers' servants.
- Cohied Davies explained. •
Mr. J. P. GRANT condemned the Resolutions, -
because Government had not reduced the army to
that moderate system which their professions of
economy taught the public to expect. The plan
enumerated 23 Regiments of Cavalry, and 91 of
infantry, as the proposed Peace t'stablislinteot..
This seheme exceeded that of former Peace Esta-
blishments by 15 regiments. Had the reduction
recommended been adopted, there would not only
have been a great saving to the public, but there
would have:been a force sufficient to resist any
sudden attack, or to have provided against any
sudden rupture. The Hon. Mi•mber could not
suffer the Resolutions to pass, without entering
this protest. The Peace Establishment ought not
to have exceeded that of Mr. Pitt in 1791. Gen-
tlemen ought to look to what they are about to
sanction, and not allow themselves :o be misled
by specious appearances. The Hon. _,lertsber be-
lieved- that there were Gentlemen tow in the
House who were'Members the time mention-
ed. He called upon them to vote against such
a large Establishment, as opplessive to the coon-
try, when our finances were in such a deplorable
state. -Government acted fallaciously .when.they
pretended to support plans of economy: The pre-
sent illilitgry Establishment contradicted all their
declarations• in favour of retreochment. Year
after year they bad been told that the army would
be reduced to the lowest Peace Establishment.
But the Resolution of that night negatived the
declaration of Government.---(" Question, ques-
tion, question !" resounded from several parts of
the House.)—The 'Hon. Member, regardless of
the interruptiOns, said, that it was a very lustros--
tant question indeed. It was of such vast magni: tide
to the revenue and to the people, that he (Mr.
Grant-) would not be surprised to find the Noble
Lord-come down again to the House to acknow-
ledge his error, and to propose a further reduc-
tion.—(Question, question !)--Whatever
nions'Geolemen entertained on the subject, he
should think it his duty to ewer I-is prinest.
-Mr. GOULBURN thought that all the items or
resolutions of the Army Estimates had aheady
been fully end satisfactorily discussed. He,
therefore, could not help expressing Isis surprise,
that the Hon: Member (Mr. J. P. Grant) should
come down to the House to vent general declaims-
tions,without going into particulars,or calling upon
any individual' to explain to hint the reason for
voting the resolutions now about to be submitted
to the House. The inferences which ! e was pleased
o draw between the establishment of 1792, and
n-1,,.1, were injudicious and oilcan-
rTh, totale different. The Hon.
Member —ktoi if ac;' other than
the Hun. Gentleman ~eouhl be bold or
rash etiOugh to maintain ei-,-!ent peace
establishment ought to 'oe -by that
of 1792 ? A considerable augmeatailon was at
this period requisite. He was ready to assign lily
reasons for the augmentation ; but he beli,:ved it
would be mmecessary to detain the House by
such explanation. With all deference to the Hon.
Member, he would rake the libetty to recommend
to hint on the next discussion of a question to
come forward with more candour, and to allcivir
Government some Peace Establishment adequate
to the defeOce of the country. The Hon. Mem-
ber concluded by affirming, that it would be a
waste of time, if not en act of impossibility, to
offer solid arguments against general assertions,
The questions was then pot, and the resolution
carried --On the readiug of the resolution,
Colonel DAVIES censurer! -Mieisters for their
wanton expenditure of the public money. He
insisted, that " while Goveruerent were provids,
ing against the chance of a future war, the coun-
try Was going to ruin."
•Lord PALMERSTON' explained the statement
on which the Resolution then before the House
was founded—that a reduction of five regiments
of cavalry, and fifteen regiments of infamy,
would be a saving to the amount of 175,7501.-s.
His Lordship entered into a further explanation
of t he system now proposed, by stating Cost the
Sergeant-Majors, &c. &c. were entitled by half,•
pay to 80001. With regard to obtaining .11AtAl at
a cheaper rate as they were disbanded, he hoped
(knifemen would recollect, that when such
me:) were disbanded they became immediately
free, and, co nsegiseut ly, Government was ohligel
to treat with them as with the community at
harp. The 32 regitueuts, or 32,000 WWI VW..

eoscil, would answer every exigency of Go-
vernu►cnt ; and they would be so found by re..
trtliting t i.,e videttes ou pay as to he easily and
speedily enlarged to whatever number might be
deemed requisite. The saving by ►his part of the
plan alone would amount to 300.0001.
Col. Devinson and 111 r. Flume offered some
few oeQerea:lens, when the Resolution was agreed
to —On the reading of that for granting 1.18,0001
to d,..fray the expellee of the Stair Eoablistimeni,
Mr. Hume thought the suu► tar too mech. 'He
censured Government vehemently for not eceoulit-
ing for the sip pins revenues of Ceylon, the Cape,
and other Colonies, amounting to one trillion
sod a half sterling, or ►►t least twelve hundred
ti►ousand pore its. In this general charge against
Governmynt, he included the smth's revenues of
tie Mauritius, the lonian 'shouts, Malta. and
Gibraltar. He had expected that some reference
would have been made to the Committee on the
subject now noticed. The Hon. Member then
went into details, and maintained that , the years
1816, 1817, and 1818,.had passed away without
Government stating one syllable on this important
point. The Hon. Member now boldly asked,
what had become, of the twelve hundred thou-
sand pounds ? Or how had Government applied
it ? He insisted that almrier the .wl►ole of these
colonies were able to establish their military pay-,
ments, and thus .free this .country front a sum to
the amount now mentioned. If twelve hundred,
thousand pounds were thus nude available to di-
minish our expenses, there would of course be
a v-,ry important saving to the ~public. In the
survey which he had made of the accounts from
these colonies, he had not been able to disco-
ver any statement of appropria,ion of the
12 hundred thousand pounds. Ile insinuated that
Ministers had by the misapplication of that sum
been enabled to provide for such of their ad-
herents as they could not pension from the re-
venue at home. If this were made out against
thew, it was a gross and scandalous -misapplica-
tion of the public revenue, He should propose,
that instead of 118,0001. as wear t to be voted,
the sem should be reduced to 91,0001., thus sav-
ing 21,0001. to the public. In l►e case of the
Duke of York, the annuity of 10'.0001. allowed to
Lis Royal Highness as Custos, had been opposed
by a very large and a respectable number rut that
House. And all those Gentlemen who then con-
tended for a skivng of 10,0(101. to the public, be
hoped would now come forward to support him
in a saving of 21,0001. lie concluded by an
amendment to that effect.

The SPEAKER was about to put the questiou,
when

Air. GOULBURN, when the proper time ar-
rived, was fully enabled not only to prove the
policy adopted by Government regarding the
Colonial Irevenue now, mentioned, but also
fully enabled to exculpate them from all
blame. But to bring the question fairly for-
ward, the Honourable Member had only to more
for the production of what papers he might think
necessary to substantiate his allegations.. In dis-
cussing the application of. those revenues, the
Hon. Memb,r ought to have been more careful of
the truth of his information, before he ventured to
make , such charges against Government. But
whenever the Papers which he might move for
came before the House, it would be found that
his charges were totally groundleJs Government
had never considere4 that they ought to inter.
fere, or had a right to interfere, in the applica-
tion of their internal Revenue. With regard to
the lonian Islands, the application of the Revenue
would he easily accounted for, either by the gal-.
lant Officer ai the head of those Settlements, or
by the Government at Lome. If he understood
tightly; the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) had men?
tioned his intention of moving for an enquiry on
the subj,:et now complained of. The Hatte.Mentber
(Mr. Hume) had sonic few hours ago communi-
cated to him what he meant to mention to the
Rothe ; but, instead of deprecating any farther
discussion or enquiry, be had waived every objec-
tion, arid left the Hon. Member to follow his own
measures. The Hon. Member (Mr. Gou!horn)
assured the House, that ',either the Noble Lord,
at the head of` the department to which he (Mr.
G.) had the honour of belonging, nor he himself,
as officially employed, would shrink front any ex-
amination which the Hon. Member chose to in-
stitute. It was needless to detain the House
loner ; but be again begged to assure them, that
when the proper documents' were under discus-
sion, he (Mr. G.) should not be wanting to
prove that no blame was attached to Govern-
Men!.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH did not , wish to pro-
voke a discussion on the charge now advanced
against Government that evening. Lie confessed
that previous to his coming to the House, he was
totally unacquainted with what he had heard ;
ant he could not help confessing that if the alle-
gations were well founded, they contained very
grave and serious charges against the Govern-
ment. If he understood rightly, his Hon. Friend
had stated that there was a surplus revenue of
the colonies meniioned adequate to defray the ex-.
pewees of the respective Military Establishments;
and that the application of, that surplus had not
been accounted by Government. If his /Jo-
notiranle Friend could substantiate his allega-
tions, the case would prove as serious a charge
as;- ever bad been presented against any Admini-
stration. it was an unconstitutional act, and could
not be passed over in silence. If granted could
be proved on the revenue alluded to, it would
force a-epics:ion to he agitated of the greatest im-
portance to the public. If well founded, it would
prove, that the Servants of the Crown were
arailing themselves of a peculiar species of re-
venne to which-they had no right without Jim au-
thority of that Honse. The Hon. Member (Sir
James) did not mean to say that Ministers could
not justify their conduct ; but it was evident that
certain clandestine resources of • revenue ,were
under the.controul or direction of Government,
wi.shout the authority of Parliament. He in-
stanced two cases, namely, that of Gibraltar and
Minorca.
Mr. GOULBURN again denied that Govern-
ment bad ever been guilty of any misapplication
cif the revenue alluded to by providing for persons
-scum they could not satisfy on the .Home List.
Whenever the Hon. Gentleman brought forward
the documents containing the grounds for_ the

chargrs a:zailott E;overntnent, he (Mr. G.) should
enter into a toil explanation. He censured the
Hon. Mewlicr tot twng in the heat of discussion
the word " unworthy," as applicable either to
him or his Noble Ft lend.
Mr'. Humv denied that lie had ever used such a
word as " unworthy," and challenged the re-
cf,llcction of any other Meother on the occasion.
Irr drawing hi's deductions, Le stated one instance
in v1ii.7.11 the revtnue 01 a patticular place had
amounted to 115,0001. (11alla we believe), and
the expeace of the e,r'ablishment amounted to
0,0001. only. Then what became of this
surplus
Mr. Gout-BURN, finding no specific charge,
but general, assertions, declined any further reply.

Mr. F. DouGLAs, Sir NV. DE CRESPIGNY, &e.
delivered their sentiments upon the Arriendment,
which was put and negatived.—The original Re-
solution for 118.0001. was then pia and carried.—
When the Resolution respectiug Medicines was
put, ."
Mr. J. P. GLINT announced his intention of
movitig to•morrow in the Committee a proposition
relative to the Ophthalmia.
The remainder ot the Resolutions were then
severally put and carried.