The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-12 00:00:00

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°Pen the qn
Sider estion he was about to bring under the con-
ation of the House that evening ; and strong as
,%rioe.nrethhaiSt feaenli.nes respecting it—deep as was his convic-
In the task of "' "
%Ise} • • delay in dealing with it would only add
fro net to pt procastination—he should shrink
totheattention House
calling of the
Haig a
so largely and ably discussed at the begin-
s4g of the present session, if he saw anything like a
eoe
ee, however distant and faint, that her Majesty's Go-
*ererae..,„
eachnu were prepared to entertain the principle upon
the settlement of the question must ultimately
that this He did not for a moment suppose
dual
this question would or could be advanced
strong?e!l efforts, or that the inveterate feelings or pre-
ithuiees, he 'would call them, which had plunged them for
'`na
.._.Fe hundred years into a course of vicious legislation.
which still retained such a hold on the minds of
tehDntrar3Y, Would be removed by individual effort. On the
', whenever the time for dealing practically with
theb
question arrived, it would require the best efforts of
stooAes.t men of both sides to remove the obstacles which
ron the way of a settlement. Much forbearance,
hwh mutual concession, would be required ; and he
tih,leved that men on all sides must follow the opi-
th'en of Bishop Watson, who, in the debate on
sroautin,°, said that " they must learn to give up
eord
singstuin to secure great things, as tranquillity, cell-
a, p(r hear.) He admitted the
'e-esto,ll was difficult and complicated, but that was no
caltst,on why it should not be entertained.—(Hear, hear.)
e• Emancipation was difficult, yet Catholic Erman-
tZlll?ati°ll was carried. Nay, the more difficult and corn-
ated the question was, the more indispensible did it
befoclne.that the House should entertain and promote it
no re it was forced on it by events over which they
euruld have no control—the more incumbent it was to
itncltaitol
ete.ll° difficulties and unravel that complication,
-
Lie F'4e°, if possible, the Irish Church upon a foot-
t4 Ire consistent with its own professed objects, and
tlii,gjeai.t interests it was intended to promote. With
0a the„e'ing• if he saw anything like a progressive policy
e
Part of the Ministers—anything like an honest
ties`traination or desire to grapple with the real difficul-
teo-dwhich the Government of this country had to con-
kr With —to regard Catholic Emancipation as
peat Pitt reenrded it, as the first of a
of , series 'of measures for the amelioration
sPira.eiftild, framed on a large and comprehensive
1)olit' and carried out with a vigorous hand—such a
ttiru o,ws that would have no warmer supporter than
pla/'rielle-,l' Be adopted on this point the words of an Hor.i.
°f his, whom he was sorry not to see then in his
lie sae, with Whom he often concurred in opinion, though
for 00 the other side of the House—the Hon. Member
Wish e3'olouth—who said, on the first debate, " that his
thews'at to see his Right Honourable Friend.
,stentio head of the Government announce. his T-
ree - of altering the anomalous position of t
the `estant Church in Ireland, while he maintained
otiehPrinciPle upon which a Church Establishment
e t to
of rel.• be maintained in any country. for the. purposes
loolo.,1141"°, but giving up the doctrine that it was to be
adoe-;`," as a Protestant stronghold." He (Mr. Ward)
en,o'en that principle altogether, but he would ask any
leve-ernan on either side of the House whether the
X 5 on was indicated by Honourable and
tvh7Leci Gentlemen, either by word or deed,
that w°old warrant him in entertaining the belief
toentBll°,,h are the sentiments of her Majesty's Govern-
for ,'Vas there any good legislation at all in prospect
great-tehlaanndr.: Had the Government announced any
g in their policy, any change that might
s74ably be expected—had any one thing. been said
f
tlisetine calculated to remove or to allay the just cause of
Pril,tent, the just cause of excitement which prevailed
of eland, and thus bringing back the alienated feelings
'-gle.PeoPle of that country to England and this House.
the /,;111, hear.) The only measure commenced was
ero;'80 Registration Bill, which the Right Hon. Gen-
ate „ri, the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
Ist:flounced his intention of proceeding with on the
Tit .1 'rid'
y if the state of public business admitted it.
Mherhe believed, was, that the Bill had been every-
tioo:e„received with such an universality of condemna-
tilktaat they would never hear of it again. There was
torri"ie 13i11 which the Right Hon. Baronet the First
teas:: °
the Treasury alluded to at the beginning of the
aneill' for further endowment of the Catholic clergy.
4f 41 not know whether that was included in the. list
Pre4?,,astires to be introduced by the Government. in the
at 'at session. But there was, in truth, no legislation
Psa;i''' for Ireland since this time twelvemonths, and if.
14411 from their works to their words, they looked at
kodts'eclarations as a criterion of what their future
-eft ~.was to be, he found that there never was a time
41414 sphere was so little of what was good expected,
Theysf, much of what was bad anticipated.—(Hear.)
-a not only taken up a position which
.was.
• 'i_ but the yh d ledged themselves to maintain it.
tWer; "'ad had-a
seriesa of declarations within the last
114str; inonths, from almost every member of the Mi-
tillensive to Ireland, discouraging. to those who,
") Partike hira„self,. wished it well
.without any direct reference
sr• e °l3Jects, and destroying all hope of good to arise
st i-rhell who had been tying their own hands upon the
e-LPortant questions which could possibly be brought
aO str°trie,`gem• His Noble Friend the Secretary of State
• -h` ,4olonies had declared that he could see no differ-
,7staetTetc,ween a Protestant Establishment and a Pro-
Qoverei n ; that in 1829, when Catholic Eman-
,4fith was cagrried, there was an implied agreement,,
wr• ieP,would be a gross breach of faith in those who
uath,-,,htnat measure to depart from. Now he really had
,S,,tirej" aware that the present Government was.com.posed
I.‘oes lt,°f those who carried Catholic Emanciion.—
ntit ile'e,ar-) If the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
~da had been told, at that period, that he would
0041:1 himslf in a Government of which the Right
Zare. iTea,,ronet (Sir R. Peel) was a member, he would
s'elve much surprised at such a. declaration.
.Such,
ver
n°l4 was the first declaration illustrating the inten-
-;„ the Government. In the next place, an H. on.
Tl,,,eootes-anra,.w_ehose- opinions on Irish affairs were entitled
at otwgefrobl
h.weigehetn—t and they derived more weight
appointment as Secretary to the
,;(4. 4s,tthY--hulad his recent
that the Church was a line
eves-earation etween parties ; that no Conserya-
kit Statesman b
could, without dishonour to fum-
,tl4l,44tilid ruin to his party, make any other de
o,„
.4 aodthan that he was determined to do all
atilB e PeWer to maintain inviolate and intact the dign•
etizh''"sition of the Established Church. Then came the
ktr,ll.°,Baronet,
0• the Home Secretary, who, while he
k
krelandas the fatal field which had separated
'et 1.'411 his former friends, who he could never hope to
tigain
st , except as opponents, in. answer to many
Oble I,'"'erttte and rational suggestions made by his
1, rieod the Member for the city of London, said—
itlie'ieet all these L. that nostrums ; they are all incompatible
•ip Ntl, preference which the Protestant State of E rig-
a „
I,tiseour fundamental princispale_,..hsa.smednec.ided on giving
kt %tided the Protestant.E Establishment." h t " " I stand,"
• the iiPon the choice made by this country
scale. Reformation —confirmed at the Revolution
tll the Act of Settlement—and ratifiede
re.ttegst ct of Union. I hold that preference to b(l,:e t‘,l,"e firmest foundations of our liberty ; Ibe-
got' be the work of the greatest statesmen, _ and I
at 44010 elt
will be overthrown by any Repeal As
head (Hear hear.) Now, the Right Hon. Baronet
oeto_osf her 'Majestyit's. Government, had had the
these declarations. He
eswiadeel, iderably mod
"If we were nY;vgcoanvinced that the social
4 4,..."11 of Ireland requires a alteration of the law
p,.,'°l:3ont'ailr.tuere from the compact which has been made,
nld not be prep aed to maintain that corn-
,j4e 44ut still he came to the same conclusion, in sub-
-4 brigs: his colleagues; because he said afterwards,
ath .g re
to,,reason and conviction in aid of compact and
aaimble "Pse 00d I come to
which,th conclusion that the best
pitoilwd the course I for one, as far as my
theie tt..ei's can be exerted, can pursue, is to main-
-Ist"' deo integrity the Protestant Church." Now,
skate
at:rations held out veryl' d hope as to the
,of Ireland, but a still strongerite and a still
4qe° at declaration on the same subject had been
reetl thither 4
place, to which he could not allude more
pest' Cli by saying, that there were cte_rteaminorgans
all Cop
of that
ittt)°k the liberty of imparting to
_h
Cbprehti, the place to which he referred, 0 the ocea-
ilPresentation of a petition on the su,betnol the Irish
4t:i%'ll, .6 Duke of Wellington said, The Protestant
tieett subsisted in Ireland for 300 years. It had been
tl;kete,er during a system of contests, retb_ and
h Ireland at
tipiotiretit r was part of the compact mad
y rested'ue union ; it was the foundatieonwion. which the
faith at,' and you cannot depart from it without being
Nt1;11,11 a,•lPaeh of faith worse than those pecuniarbreaches
to have been alluded to on such occa.
4C4e.. tit uw, all these declarations were, in his. humble
to "41 ' very d • tic. They irritated
riot t
.useless an- very imp
"ihe' any'ace—they settled nothing; they
.co_uld not tare
dto a system which was indefensible upon any
444 /41,44hiellatoral right. He could not but help referring t
i'lk„ton cbteasion on which a Royal Duke, in alluding ta
" Catholic Emancipation, had made a remarkab.le
tte ni • The
in
kch nes t , speech of the Duke of York did more
lerY ° alienate and exasperate Ireland
.than all the
step a ipp he 4;4, suffering of which he had complained—( Hear,
eoncession to Catholics would be a total change
tlilieds et tOental Principles of the Constitution and a blow
t je„:e.rY root of •t that nobody could be more in-
-,eer\P-gee Lation than his3Majesty, but there sail a great
olili;°roeL?'ween toleen lateand emancipation. He said that
lkti(11, -I°ll,9ath stood the way of concession, from the
end
tgiS 04 wuiell the King could not release himself by any
kid ho h:lo or be releasedby any act of the Legislature.t outtet
toNidttilioribierobibed those principles in his earlies
‘4d:ret'or, d to their ustice after the most mature
NiNdle,*': To those .Iprinciples be still adhered,
'et] -of h. -amtain and act to them, down to the last mo-
Fit.44ritittieill,eillitistoetotte,.....
i"him God.—( Hear, hear.) That
kid ttlaileipatiohon ;levee: sto the course of events, for the
e Act w! s he
four yearsafterwards—
krtll:tiet:°" it teas dalayeaa great and wise measure,
~.44-"e splyee ,tor half its ograece and utility. There was a re-
f' the Right Hon, Baronet, the Secretary. of
tr,t s co, ,at the time of its delivery, made an impression
t.tholie:lktl,t,F„Y• When he(Mr. Ward) had quoted it en a
b'ets," flkdatc,-ti, the Right Hon Baronet, said that if the Ca-
;l,4 eves tei,surne organs senses, affections, sod passions, *erit.:eY.WUthi ne'ver be satisfied if Catholic Ernanci-
11p, -
t,„ er,
ye tvee penned, to leave an intrusive Church in Ireland,
uuld be' first use they would make 1 aft to reinstate their own Church;
hat political
4 ere er the delivery of that speech, the Rornyanet,Cwitthhion-
li Put tithed
e it tithe enjoyment of pp
power. —( Hear.)
84ti f Right
ela Y Ire Hon. Baronet. then, how they could
°I red • Imid without doing that which, 27 Yom ago,
steep v'onld be io sneteat. utterly impossible to withhold ificitis_e
.e ti of
,e ion were carried. Now, let him recal to
tik!
14 t:44 hrittire House what was the real subject of. diu .
tae
them with any lengthened statistical details
t 1411% (-17 -esso nse t° revenues of the Irish Church ;it ins the
iettlP°64l Ycl° I'o. because his Noble Friend had placed at
too btY the p...e re most recent data whiakt eould be sup-
-414 :tight bet? "laStieal Commissioners. The question was
nth .th, %Nile before he in such a shape that he believo4
eheyeeyevery little difference of opinion as to the amount
whittastisyear his estimate of the revenue, of the
to
eirelr 652,53/" Was fter-edingly
his
perfect and 10.49.
ttl,%4,,natar„. The estimaee of his Noble Friend, OW,,
_ were afterwards explained, wt a.
e eery 01_4 fiblerenee of 1:20,000/. BOO) those t.e
, "eo under the mark. He believed be
atitiai revenues—the revenues held by dean-, 11**"
-wl.; the
eN!anons at 196.132/. ; the parochial tithes at
eo pal at 9,0001.; tithe, bold by dignitaries

at 24,000/. ; making in all 524,660/. Deduct from this 25/.
per cent. for the rent-charge, and there remained 390,4951.
Add for episcopal revenues, after deducting tithes, 162,0001.,
which made 552,753/. ; add to this the value of glebes and
demised tithes, and the total present income of the Irish
Church appeared to be 652,000/. He believed the estimate
formed by Lord Morpeth s,ime years ago, was 744,9261.
Well, now, they had to provide out of this income for a popula-
tion of 750,000 Episcopalians. In the original returns the Wes-
leyans were improperly incluied. Thy amounted to at least
100,001 persons, and were totally independent of the Establish-
ment.—(Cheers.) In England there were 14,000,000 Pro-
testants. There were in Ireland 2,450 parishes, and 1,422
beneficed elergy. In England there were 10,700 parishes. In
Ireland there were two archbishops and ten bishops ; in Eng-
land, with an episcopal population ten times larger, there were
only two archbishops and twenty bishops.— ( Hear, hear.) To
one bishop there were in Ireland 115 benefices; in England
there were 412. The diocese of Lincoln contained 1259
benefices, and that of Norwich 1,033 ; so that there
were two bishops in this country for 2,292 benefices., whilst
there were 1,422 benefices in Ireland with ten bishops and
two archbishops to superintend them.—( Hear, hear.) He put
it to the House whether one archbishop and three bishops
weiuld not be an ample provision for 1,422 benefices, with
752,000 Protestants, costing eighteen or twenty shillings each?
But that was not all. Including educational grants, grants
for building churches, and other objects, not less than
3,310,000/. had been voted since the union, to support the
Irish Establishment. The charter schools, founded by a
Primate Poulter, were proselyting schools, in which the
Catholic children were taught to regard their parents
as heretics. How could they be expected to turn out well.
when they were educated in such a belief? Ir point of fact
they had not done so. He did not wish to repeat anything
which he had stated already ; but some of his firmer state-
ments having been denied, he felt bound to allude to them.
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Recorder of Dublin said that
the neglect of the native language had been greatly over-
rated. The Honourable Gentlemen then referred to events

which occurred in the reigns of Elizabeth and James
to bear out his statements on this subject. The
Hon. Gentleman then went into a series of statements, to
show that from the first establishment of the English dominion
in Ireland. the object of the Government had constantly been
to enrich.the Church at the expense of the people. The lion.
Baronet the Member for Oxford had on a former occasion al-
luded to the great improvement which had lately taken. place
in the Episcopal clergy in Ireland. According to the Hon.
Baronet the Apostolic age was on the eve of returning in
that country. Now, it so happened that he (Mr. Ward) was
constantly receiving communications from Ireland on the sub-
ject of the Church. He believed that he might say that his
desk was the general receptacle for all documents relating to
the abuses of the Established Church in Ireland. Now he
held in his hand a doeument, of the authenticity of which he
had no doubt, it was entitled a catalogue of the genuine effects
of the late venerable Thomas De Lacy, Archdeacon of Meath,
to be sold by auction, and was dated in February last. Among
the articles for sale, he found enumerated forty thorough-bred
horses and mares, justly celebrated in all the hunts and steeple-
chases in Ireland; an entire Spanish ass; a spanish donkey
in foal; thirty couple of beagles, and thirteen brace of greyhounds
well known in the county of Meath.—( Hear.) These things
seemed certainly very little like the Apostolic age as he under-
stood it. The Hon. Baronet would find that there was still
small rooom for improvement. These documents had been
transmitted to him by a Catholic clergyman, who, in his letter,
had stated that the placard enclosed would illustrate the man-
nerin which the wealth of the State was lavished on the
Church of the minority in Ireland, but he protested against
the wealth being transferred to the Catholic Church. His de-
sire was to see it employed in some purpose which should be
useful to all classes of the people. guch were the doctrines
entertained by the whole Catholic prelacy and priesthood. Now
bow could they imagine that the people of Ireland, when they
saw these revenues, which had been originally left for the sup-
port of the Catholic religion, thus lavished on the members of a
sinecure Church, who wasted them in the proeusion of worldly
luxury—how could they imagine the people of Ireland could place
any reliance on their sense of right or of justice? He admitted
that the late Archdeacon De Lacy was a kind, hospitable, li-
beral man—he did not complain of him, but of the system.
Nature had intended him for an excellent fox-hunting squire,
but the law had made him a bad archdeacon.—(Laughter.)
But then they were told that to meddle with the Irish Church
would be a breach of the Act of Union. If the Act of Union
had no better foundation to stand upon than that, God help
them and it—it would not stand twelve months.—( Hear. )
He could not forget the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Government on the Dissenters' Chapel Bill—a
measure which met with his hearty concurrence. The Right
Hon. Baronet had spoken of the good effects of perfect tolera-
tion at Tamworth, where they were like a happy family, with a
Unitarian chapel at one end of the town, a Catholic chapel at
the other, and the ,church, like the cut in the Honourable
Baronet's caricature, keeping the peace between them.
—(Hear, hear.) Surely Tamworth was not to be the
exception—why was not the Tamworth system made co-exten-
sive with the empire ?—( Hear, hear, from Sir R. Peel.) He
knew the meaning of that cheer. In Tamworth the Church
had her rights, and the Dissenters were tolerated. That was
right, for the Church was the Church of the majority ; but let
the Right Hon. Baronet transfer the revenues of the Church
to the Unitarian or the Catholic minority, and he would have a
little Ireland at his park gate in a fortnight. He utterly denied
that they were bound to support the Irish Church, either by
the Act of Union, or by the Emancipation Act of 1829. The
Catholic oath, in 1829, was framed without any participation
or compact with the Catholics, and, at the time of the union,
not only was there no compact in favour of the Church, but
there were assurances given by Mr. Pitt, and by Lord Corn-
wallis, that the union should be immediately followed by
Catholic emancipation. As a proof of this, he would refer, not
only to the communications of those distinguished men, but to
the whole course of the union debates. As a proof of Mr.
Pitt's sincerity in this instance, he would remind the House
that when Mr. Pitt found he could not carry his measures in
favour of the Catholics into effect, he resigned office, in 1804,
and yet the men who dined at Pitt clubs coupled Mr. Pitt's
name with Protestant ascendancy.—( Cheers.) Why, Mr.
Pitt had actually struck out the sixth article of the union as it
came from Ireland, which saved the Church all the rights,
privileges, and jurisdictions which then belonged to it, and had
substituted the article as it stood at present, guaranteeing to
the Church its discipline and doctrine in the place of the
original sixth article ; and he made this substitution on the
ground that he wished to reserve to the Imperial Parliament
the power of considering what it might be expedient to do for
his Majesty's Catholic subjects. Now, it was not possible for
a Minister of the Crown to hold stronger language than this.
But, even supposing the Act of Union had guaranteed the pre-
servation of the Irish Church interest, still he might ask the
Right Hon. Baronet how he proposed to deal with the
question? This was the last remnant of the old system. The
Right Hen. Baronet must have foreseen some years ago that
it must come to this. He had emancipated the Catholics, and
he also stated that when they were emancipated, if they had
the feelings of men they must necessarily use their power to
endeavour to obtain the restoration of their own Church, and
that the union with Scotland bad never been completed until
that had been effected. How did the R.ght Hon. Baronet mean
to deal with this question? Did he mean to fall back on the
" No Popery" cry, and to re-enact the Catholic disabilities? He
had lately seen a remarkable suggestion on this point from a gen-
tleman who had at one time been honoured by a high eulogium
by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, he meant the
Rev. Hugh M'Neill, who, although he was not now pm-
portant as he was some years ago, before the present Ministry
came into power, was still a gentleman possessed of considerable
local influence. That gentleman as late as December
last, in addressing the Conservative Operative Associa-
tion of Liverpool, had given it as his opinion,
that the British Constitution would be destroyed unless
political disabilities were again imposed on the Roman Catho-
lics.—( Hear, hear.) He hardly thought the Right Hon.
Baronet would agree with that gentleman. Then there was
another gentleman, the Rev. Mr. Glover, who, in a re-
cent work on Ireland, had stated it as his opinion that all the
agitation in Ireland was owing to the double episcopal rule of
the Roman Catholic Bishops .and of the Bishops of the Esta-
blished Church, which was the ancient Church. Mr. Glover
stated that it was entirely in the power of the Home Secretary
to stop the agitation at any time, by issuing a royal proclama-
tion informing the people of Ireland that the Roman Catholic
Church was a new Church, not dating to a later period than
the seventeenth :century, and that the Bishops of the Esta-
blished Church were the true representatives of the Apostles,
and of the Saints in general, and of St. Patrick in particular ;
that that was the old religion, which was not the
less old because it was preached in the English language.
Those were professions made by men who professed the sin-
cerest regard for all classes of their fellow-country men, and one
of them at least had been lauded for his mil.lness by the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies. Was the Right Hon.
Gentleman at the head of the Government prepared to say that
Catbelice were not justified in voting for those reforms in the
Established Crouch which a large portion of the Protestants of
this kingdom were in favour of? Did he mean to go back to
the days of 1753 or of MI, when Lord Westmoreland indig-
nantly rejected a petition front the inhabitants of Cork, because
it contained a paragraph which prayed for the remission of
some of the penal laws which then afflicted Catholics? Did the
Right Hon. Baronet subscribe to Mr. Montgomery Martin's
recommendation—to punish every Irishman who happened to
be a repealer with the loss of his goods ? Did he believe in the
soundness of the triumph over " the convicted conspirators ?'
Did he believe that that success would insure the peace of Ire-
land ? He thought that would be a most unsound conclusion,
and one which he saw nothing in the present condition of the
affairi of that country to warrant—he saw nothing in Ireland
now but a sullen dogged feeling of dislike to England, and a
distrust of our justice.—( Hear, hear.) There was a general
feeling there, that if O'Connell had been an Englishman and
tried m England, he would hays been acquitted—( Loud cries
of " Hear, averse")—that he was in prison because he was an
Irishman, and beeause be was tried in Dublin.—( Hear, hear.)
Such a feeling naturally gave rise to strong and general re-
sentment. He saw no sign of discouragement or despondency
on the pert of those who had joined Mr. O'Connell in the re-
peal agitation. He gaw no sign of any disposition to ask un-
worthy favours of the Crown to effect the release of a man who, .
whatever his faults might be—and he (Mr. Ward) did not be-
lieve they were greater than what would naturally fall to the
lot of one engaged in active public duty—a mats whom history
would pronounce to be the most eminent of his age and coun-
try—he saw no disposition, he repeated, to sue for even his
liberty, although it would be, no doubt, to the Irish people a
source of unspeakable satisfaction. He feared, if the wounded
feelings which at present existed were not allayed, that the
struggle would soon be of a different nature—a struggle
for separation instead of repeal. Were the sympathies
of Europe with them in this persecution of Ireland? He
thought not—he did not think the Government could rely on
them for a moment. Ireland was our Poland, and what was
felt for Poland we ought to feel for Ireland. He did not ask
them to go to Catholic Belg'um or Catholic France, but he
would go to Protestant Switzerland and Protestant Ger-
many. The Hoc,. Member then referred to a passage in a
French work, the " Bibliotheque Originel," lately published,
in which it was stated that the present condition of Ireland was
utterly uhtenAle. The work was circulated over the whole
Continent, and to Continental newspapers generally had ;per-
fect. horror of our policy. They could not understand the mi-
serable inconsistency of our applauding public liberty, and yet
practising the most illiberal policy upon a large portion of our
fellow-subjects, dos' three centuries The greatest ereelties
had been practised pn them in the name of the
Irish Protestant Church Estelalisbritent,—( Hear.) Why
the treaty of Westphalia, although it. territorial re-
gelatiees had been long since blown to the wind, was prised
'by the th;rmaes, because it conferred civil and religious
liberty. Germany sympeehised with Ireland, and wished to
Fee hpr shake off that yoke of oppression, that cruel yoke, by
the torturee of which, as Judge Jebb remarked, you might
d
track Ireland by bet blood, like a wounde map.—((js are
gway 800,0001. a year for the
hear ) Whilst we were voting
of the blacks. we were e;asenleretloly,
thheigfdli:Ateinol
haggling ateest 4. paltry sum of 8,0001. a
of 7,000,000 of our fellew-subjects.—( Hear, hear.) Was
it
not lamentable to see us riskioie She peace of Ireland, to pre-
oes e 44,, twenty-sevenserve vi.)try ;eaten system, 'which
years ago, &Marta pest be abandoned, and ,)~'hick, e gfrci
saw the P g
could not survive Catholic emetleißtion• We
of
Prnssia laying the first stone 'or the f:4llWlic cathedral ite
Cologne mid acclamations, and yet 'thi OtreP
of England ,ceuid ;tot place the name of the moles
(listing uished Cailielip in her realms on the Privy
Cottee4l, ;Oboist encountering ti\e veiger abuse of Exeter
Hall. He %reels; MI upon the House tha,t eight a. ttqthe
first step to put an end to al)s ossetn. He trusted .(.hat
.that the
econ.stp
sp e hiee, of the Irish Church would reeiee mee,
at the ban At the Commons of England, and teat teeie kietAts
source of discontent would be removed, and that trantrultity

would be permanently established. Ireland would have her
right., however they might slight them. Our only choice was
whether Ireland should receive her rights from our justice or
through our humiliation. He preferred conceding at once
what it would be dangerous and unjust in us longer to with-
hold. On a subject so exhausted as the nresent, he would not
longer dwell, but he believed the House had no other means of
averting the repeal of the union than by proving that the
Imperial Legislature can legislate for the whole people of Great
Britain and Ireland on the principles of equality and justice,
and that they were not only able, but willing, to consummate
at once this work of civil and religious renovation.—( Cheers. )
Lord ELIOT said, that during the last session of Parlia-
ment the subject of the Irish Church had been so thoroughly
discussed that he did not think it necessary to trespass, for any
length of time, on the attention of the House. He had on that
occasion so fully stated his opinions, that he thought it the less
necessary to trespass on their attention. If he rightly under-
stood the motion of the Hon. Member, it was much more
limited in its nature than the motion of last year. Neither did
the Hon. Gentleman go into the same ample details as on a
former occasion, but contented himself with requesting of the
House to accede to his motion for inquiry. The principal
argument of the Hon. Member was, that as the Members of the
Established Church in Irelaad bore a small proportion to the
whole people of Ireland, that, therefore, the Established Church
should be stripped of its temporalities. He admitted the pre-
mises, but denied the conclusion. It was not a mere question of
numbers, it was a question of principle, of right. They were
not now called upon to consider which was the best mode of
supporting the Established Church in Ireland. They had now
to deal with the Church which had a prescriptive right to its
temporalities nearly 300 years. He did not think the argu-
ment of prescriptions could be altogether disregarded by Hon.
Gentlemen on the other side of the House. There was no part
of the speech of the Right Hon Gentleman, the Member for
Edinburgh, on the Dissenters' Chapels Bill—that eloquent,
argumentative speech—which seemed to have made a greater
impression on the House than that in which he treated of pre-
scription. He showed how much his right was cherished, and
to what an extent it prevailed, not only in the polished
States of Greece and Rome, but even among the
uncivilized nations of the East. But he (Lord
Eliot) did not, by any means, altogether rely on
prescription. The temporalities of the Established Church
were secured to her by the Act of Union, and were confirmed
by the Catholic Emancipation Bill. The fourth article of.the
union was decisive on this point. Mr. Pitt, who had been
frequently quoted as an authority by the Hon. Member for
Sheffield, was decidedly adverse to the abridgment of the tem-
poralities of the Established Church. The Noble Lord then
quoted the speech of Sir Henry Parnell in 1811, in which that
distinguished man stated that the Established Church in Ire-
land had been seeured in strength by the Act of Union, which
was one of the objects of that union ; and he quoted Mr. Pitt's
authority to the same effect. Mr. Pitt was of opinion that the
Established Church in Ireland would derive security from being
consolidated with the Established Church in England. The
people of England had been assured at the time the Catholic
Relief Bill was passed, that the Protestant Church in Ireland
would be secured by it. Mr. Grattan, in 1823, thought the
revenues of the Established Church should be supported, and
should not be subjected to any species of spoliation. Lord
Plunkett deprecated in the strongest manner the transfer of
any portion of the temporalities of the 'Established Church to
the Roman Catholic Church. He said he respected the rights
of the Established Church, and would resist any encroach.
ment on them. He maintained that the property of the
Church ought to be held as sacred as any other species of pro.
perty ; and down to 1832 the present Earl Spencer,
then Lord Althorp, held language of the same nature. He
was adverse to any Spoliation of the revenues of the Church.
After dwelling on this portion of the subject at some further
length, the Noble Lord proceeded to notice the argument of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield regarding the mal.administra-
lion of the Irish Government in respect to Church patronage.
The Hon. Member said that appointments had been made in
the Irish Church which were calculated to excite the discon-
tent of that people, and that those dignitaries who were so
appointed were unfriendly to the people; and the Hon. Member
attempted to bolster up his case by readings placard, announcing
the sale of some of the property of one Archdeacon Lacy—an
elderly, eccentric gentleman, who, be it remembered, was not
dependent. upon the revenues of the Established Church, but
had an ample property of his own, The Hon. Member had
somewhat misrepresented his (Lord Eliot's) sentiments; he
had not said anything which could be construed into an opi-
nion that Catholic Emancipation in any way invalidated the
Established Church. Neither could it be urged as a reason for
spoliating the revenues of the Established Church, that they
should be applied to the Roman Catholic Church, or to the
endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy ; for the Roman
Catholics, as well as their clergy, repudiated the idea of a State
provision. Then, what would they do with the property of the
Established Church were they to confiscate it?
Mr. M. O'CONNELL—AppIy it to secular purposes.
Lord ELIOT was entirely averse to any such application,
ad he believed if the revenues of the Established Church

were taken away none would lament it more than the Roman
Catholics themselves. Whatever opinionhe ( Lord Eliot) might
entertain regarding the endowment of the Roman Catholic
clergy, and he owned he was not unfriendly to it, must, during
the present state of feeling on the part of the Roman Catholic
population and clergy, be altogether abandoned. But this was
not the time to discuss that subject. In fine, he conceived that
the Hon. Member's plan was unjust, inexpedient, and incapa-
ble of producing the effects which he anticipated from it ; and
firmly entertaining these opiniors he called upon the House in
the most earnest manner to reject the motion.
Mr. ROSS said he had heard it stated by Hon. Members
on the other side of the House, on several occasions when this
question was under discussion, that there was no real grievance-
in the establishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland; but
he and others knew well, from practical experience, that these
asseverations had no foundation in fact, and that wrong did
exist. There was one Hon. Member on the Ministerial
benches (Mr. Shaw, we believe), who never hesitated to say
that, for his religion, he was ready at any moment to lay dow n
his life. He for one did not doubt his sincerity, but he disap-
proved the feelings which prompted such an avowal. He be-
lieved such sentiments to be irreconcilable with the Christian
dispensation. There were some occasions when his sense if
duty would compel him ( Mr. Ross) to fight ; he would fight for
his country, but he would not fight for his religion, because, in
doing so, he must necessarily be attempting to violate the con-
science, the scruples, and the religious feelings, of his fellow
man. It was said by the opponents of the present
motion that, if it were agreed to, it would be consenting to
the destruction of the Protestant religion in Ireland. He
hoped he was as good a Protestant as any man in that House,
and his opinion was that no injury could ever accrue to the
Protestant faith by any such step. He believed the Protestant
religion to be placed on too solid a foundation ever to be shaken,
even though all its endowments were swept away. But, for his
part, he was prepared to contend that even if this was a real
grievance, they were bound to consult even the preju-
dicea of those from whom they differed. And when
the Roman Catholic population of Ireland looked at their
own clergy, and then at the rich clergy of the Estab-
lished Church, and contrasted the two, they felt keenly how
strange and strong that contrast was. Under these circum-
stances, then, the question arose, what was to be done? It
had been said that evening, as on previous occasions, that a
Committee only was asked for, and that no specific measure of
relief had been suggested. Now, in his (Mr. Ross's) opinion,
the Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) had acted much
more suitably and respectfully by leaving the remedy to the
wisdom of the House itself. The Honourable Gentleman
called on the House to consent to take the first and
necessary step towards a remedy, and that was by
going into a Committee of the whole House. He
thought they ought to act towards the Roman Catholics as
they acted towards the Presbyterian clergy, who received the
Regium Donum. It was due time for the House to turn its
attention to the subject. There was danger in delay. He
did not mean to say there was any danger of a rising on the
part of the people of Ireland, for peace and order had been
preached to them. But human nature was human nature,
and the Irish people might avail themselves of the first oppor-
tunity presented to them, and when that House would too late
repent it had not hearkened to the advice of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield.—( Hear.)
. Mr. SHAW said he was not surprised at the weariness
which seemed to pervade the House upon this subject,
whether it arose from a consciousness of what the result would
be, or from its having been so frequently discussed before.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, as usual led
the attack on the Established Church of Ireland, of which
he (Mr. Shaw) was the humble advocate in that
House, but he perceived from the speech of the Hon. Gen-
tleman that the tactics of the party with whom he acted
were considerably changed. The mask of professed friend-
ship towards the Established Church had been at length
cast off. He was glad of it, for the professing friend was
more dangerous than the open foe. There was no more
talk of surplusses and appropriation clauses. The destruc-
tion of the Established Church was now put forward, and
this he believed was always the object which Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite had in view. The issue now sent to the House
and country to try, was whether the Established Church, after a
possession of 300 years, was to have its property confiscated, and
the Roman Catholic Church established in its place?—(No, no. )
The Hon. Gentleman again said that there should be no hig-
gling about terms. He would not admit of terms, but would
take his stand on the ground of justice. As the representative
of the Church of Ireland in that House, he would repeat the
terms of the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman had
spoken of the failure of the Established Church in Ireland in
winning over the people. A main cause of that, perhaps, was
the maladministration and neglect of the Irish Church. The
Hon. Gentleman again alluded to there being no Protestant
prayer-books printed in the Irish language for the use of the
people. Now he begged to tell the Hon. Gentleman that
the Protestant prayer-book was the first ever printed in
Dublin, and during the last twenty years thousands of them
had been circulated by the Society for the promotion of Chris-
tian Knowledge. The Hon. Gentleman then went to parti-
cular cases, and referred to Archdeacon De Lacy. Now, this
clergyman was the owner of a considerable private fortune,
which he spent in works of charity, and if he kept a great
number of cows, he gave away the milk to the poor. If he
was fond of sporting, there were perhaps not far from where
he had lived Roman Catholic clergymen who were also fond of
their gun and their hounds, but he should be sorry to adduce
this as an instance of the contlact of the Roman Catholic
clergy generally. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted a hand.
bill of the auction of this clergyman, which he supposed was
drawn up by some George Robins, giving as flourishing an
account as po-sible of the property to be sold.—( A laugh.)
The character of no Church should be estimated from
the conduct of individuals. What were the cir-
cumstances of the Established Church in Ireland ?
Now, he believed there was no practical grievance now felt by
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Whatever grievance they
had suffered with respect to tithes bad been removed by their
being transferred from Catholic to Protestant landlords. The
nett income of the beneficed clergy was now about 350,0001.,
including curates, 377,0501. The income of the archbishops
and bishops was about 6 i,OOOl. a 'ear, Adding the incomes of
deans, chaplains, &e., the total would be about 550,000/. a
year. The average of the benefices, supposing them to be
1,400, was 332,0001. That was 2251. for each beneficed clergy-
man. He believed that the Hon. Gentleman had understated
the number of Episcopalians in Ireland. According to the
Commissioners of Instruction, it was 850,000 ; but the
Wesleyan Methodists of Ireland considered them-
selves as belonging to the Established Church, and ,
supposing that to be the case, the entire number of
Episcopalian Protestants in Ireland was not, he believed, less
than a million. Fifty sinecures had been abolished since
August, 1b33, and thirty-two pluralists had been taken from
the list ; there were at present only eighty-one pluralists
remaining. lii 1847 it wisp roported that there were 345 non.
residents; there were now only 1011. When the Temporalities
Act had been brought into full operation, he believed there
would not be two benefices worth 1,5001. a year, and not ten
worth 1,poo;. There were, under the bishops and clergy of
the Irish Church, 1,873 e,hoels, cf.in4ining 102,520 scholers,
Now hp could not help observing that stieli !ts '
thei bef,erp the jloes‘e woulde rather tend to excite than to
allay the animositieseliiph had hitherto existed. He did not
believe that the abolition of the Irish Chereh week, §ive the
Catholic population a single meal ;‘ and he thought it was hard
that those Ns ho had been the firmest friends of /3ritishtonnexiOn,
and 46110 suffered so rery privations, should now be threat-
erred with the destruction of Flat institution:--(lfear, heir.)
Tlt eMect of the motion could ill:it be 'mistaken ; but hd trusted
that he shy old 'never liye to see the day'when the Government
could countenance such a propobiOcp:
Mr. REOING I'ON knew id what new party the flop.
and i,e‘ri•;.:.d q,ntleman might c(insider. himself •to bet mg ;
I?3u;p4ecicstb4ld4iiii,ltlav,,gLiipe;had ju,E t oetn
mai nw
lthd
be whichreosi ha
IA seeds
Thy PiQnr ktigt}ti*an pai. Thiel) `hg