The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-27 00:00:00

Jle
111

for Which
"rin298,000/. were to be voted this year, and
g
the last five years there was no less a sum than
2141101 1,123,000/ voted for the same. There was
,thi,4ol.oeon
/. voted for the support of officers' widows and
which allowed about Bs. or 9s. a-week
their support, and if they were not able
ITa on that they must go to a workhouse.
eiamount of the pensions of the widows and children
°,ll the army list was considerably less than the navy,
tith°llgh the number of men in the army was so much
Teter.Fe The reason was obvious ; the army accounts
e„el•for reereshed, the navy accounts were not. Before asking
e, tan)! vote he trusted they should be made acquainted
of the number of widows and children, and the grades
andtheir preterits. It was right that the House
i the country should have the information.
taatet° tamittee ought to inquire thoroughly into these
ers. Were this done such an amount as that now
neon the list would not be tolerated. Such a Committee
' the Finance Committee of 1828, would look search-
Mely
Tito these pensions, and he was satisfied, without
e°o _llt injustice to any one, materially reduce the amount
i.vr charged upon it.
At FIELDING, who was scarcely audible in the
ee' wasunderstood to say, that before supplies
Iveee
tee; Canted they ought to ascertain whether the taxes
Ida mtposed were levied in a fair and proper manner.
psZateated against the income-tax, as being the most op-
"ge tete in its o erationwhich had existed for centuries.
knee°
‘'t.)verilment Pwere bringing down the hatred and
ireesity of the poorer classes by their support of the
ti,jrattp°,llB poor-laws ; and there was a similar feeling
ofth ,ll th.e minds of the middle classes in consequence
to;operation of the income-tax. He should ser-
f a 7 vote itechdalefor the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member
es
'n
inclu . I'OVVRING wished to state briefly the reasons
Ile Eeileag him to support the motion of his Hon. Frienc .
1" so because he thought it was one . of those eat
constitutional" principles which a Member of the
had • when he thought that the
People right to adopt, .
the
an_wereunfairly represented, fur it was essential that
perrtuPle, when the were taxed, should have some
efsno to
reopla represent their opinion
thin of thie country amounted to between twenty and
Nu); Millions, and out of those, not one million were
4 ei B,sed of votes ; and, therefore, the great mass had
f
vo,p, to he dissatisfied when they saw such a want o
of thl'°,loll their part, and of want of economy on that
Nit Government.
I,4,e'etiernT. DUNCOMBE wished to ask the Right Hon.
4 411 opposite, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
ec:n thg returns which he had moved for upon a former
Vielt2!°,n, With respect to the Income-tax Commission,
Pik " laid upon the table.
*es CUANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who
that 11, early inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say
had .`"of the the returns to which the Hon. Gentleman
thirest alluded were already nearly completed, and the
etrweilld be prepared as soon as possible.
Gee.' ROCHE condemned the course which. the
dtt
14n 'fl; pursued with respect to Ireland in e.n-
-f 4,r01g to govern there by military occupation, in-
(lf 1%4,15' ,by justice and conciliation. Those grievances
tlee 'Len the Irish people complained should be
(lof th awaY with, and above all the incubus
Itightl Established Church should be removed. The
- `lnn. Gentleman opposite had not attempted to
tree
tth difficulties" in Ireland; they had not striven to
teitiPt with the causes of the present excitement. lie
had tma Eight lion, Gentleman that the Government
katendlu t military possession of Ireland, as had been re-
tret, said in the course of the present debate. The
of td possession of the barracks, the war steamers
f
the ° harbours but the inhabitants held possession o
t,l°YitTtil,.,lltry• Theconntry was held by the deep feelings of
that
Yrnieh the Irish people entertained for their
1714
rite ogle
Although Hon. Members might consider
,`',Vre'fille ignorant, they understood the principle of a
`aelee-elnenarch - and did not attribute to the Sovereign
Fell`l,lllltencies)' of her Ministry. They remembered
tolve,r kindly feelings expressed by her Majesty
did nos Ireland when she ascended the throne. He
laltll°,te: mean any disrespect to Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
Ill'esee-‘(1 not consider they were equal to encounter the
bet.-„," great and alarming crisis.
hNI; "rISHORNE said that if the Hon. Member. who
ere
thy a tight forward the present motion had assigned
10413polibstantial reasons for the course, he would have
p :44, him, but he did not see any practical reason
igolilettning the consideration of the estimates. Why
„ eY not be postponed after, as well as before
reglt'thNo reason- existed now for their postpone-
kr.„3‘ Would not exist them. If he saw that any
e"*.,,--te" Could be effected, or any grievance redressed,
'te suPport the motion, but as it was of so indefi-
nature, he must oppose it.
House then divided, when there appeared—
Por the motion
,itainst it
Sire Majority against the motion —94,
• • om-
-1444 • 4N APIER rose, on the motion for going into C
ttaistrt °f Supply on the navy estimates, to bring then_
l'itlari,49lion Of the Board of Admiralty under the co
°Y of the House, and said that it must be admitted
pertztt Ron. Gentlem'en opposite that up to a
to even mode of ship-building was very defective,
very late
Aorli ;111,,in this, the greatest maritime country in th
Lc
o'64Pbuilding was most inferior to other countries.
tc um most clumsy, expensive, and inefficient pub-
:-Sern ertakings ever executed was the dockyard at
',,s'iough"3. It cost four or five millions of money; !ind,
""'"st constructed at such enormous cost, it was in a
1," the "tl!l'iQrit state of 'defence. The progress of steam
Vitt -lath e ahould have shown that it could have been
agreed more efficiently at a much smaller expense.
Vete, ote--,,ath the Right Hon. Baronet in the. pro-
eS had 'l34olYing the different. Boards of Admiralty
or hads“34o; but then the question was, whether what.
substituted in their stead was efficient
neth"ecirllti..aLl for the purpose. Ire doubted very much
i'lee A ,s'ilPy were so, as they tended to place
'ortirs- "ewly appointed under the sole controlof ther
"tti °f the Admiralty, who were changed with efvethye
Atitrlnistrittion. The way in which the Lords o
lalralty conducted their affairs—he would not call it
3nies,.ear—(Laughter)
,because that gave offence last 3
, most slovenl Th just went down to Somer-
Nesra°l4.e, and said, )4‘ Well,eitom,- do affairs go on?" The
tile): always woof, " Very vvell."---(Laughter.) And
on " after sortie little chat among themselves, they, put
withtheir hats and walked (Laughter.) Then,
eitt respect to the dock-yards, he thought that
Ile.aewas much to be complained of relative to them.
lieenitted the Admiralty,
as it was now conducted,
lltitr0"" with a little more' propriety in distributing its
ase,ll,ettge than under the former system, but still there
ea to TreaVelersons employed who had never gone to
see -"a tion. and Gallant Commodore then referred
per oral returns which he had called for, showing the
11tio,,tis employed in the navy, and their previous occu-
Nllee• 'laving moved for these returns in 1842, h
tNiteta returns in 1843, from which gapeieeell it, ,Tat in that year 176 persons, who had never
tth, the navy, were promoted to lucrative situations
tatee-, "Dekyrirds. Ile gave great credit to the
Admiralty for the regulation which they
Ileeead mft‘ta that whenY a ship came into port, the corn-
`l4t abould be called upon to recommend his
Officers and artificers for the situations
‘,411 might consider them competent to fill in the
bP tes`,Partments and he believed that if they followed
1147,Prineiple,'itwould be attended with considerable
1,15' all ee`e the public service. He had moved for a return
13ttvtil `,:-.T.B°lls who had entered into the civil service in
gita in-s:,4hlishments distinguishing whether they had
;"ttl, 1-„‘„," navy before,' and, if not, what situations they
r,,,t ti;::'''hn had recommended them. He wanted to
fr het information how many gentlemen's servants
tntlenlil Placed in such situations. But the Right !ion.
1 lie said tha such a return would be inv.id.l?us;
Nom th ould give air eturn, distinguishing the civilians
I,o`)*, bee hwho had served in the navy.—(A laugh.)
*hprocure Id once a servant who wished him
ttj aeoth situation at the time vacant—there
atie, er situation vacant at the same time, and a
e7th 441 hie had a similar application. But.
hthey.
ed, thinking it was unfair to the service, IYIN
fre IttZa3 the result ? the places were filled up, but
Rfls Rho h's.l navy—{Bear, hear.) One was 'iven to
not lived servant in an hotel, and the other
re te
her Nine some gentleman's servant ; but he would
a„`_: names. Much had been said at the Ad-
holio,'‘, elsewhere about the management of the
th:11 Aeedmiral, but, notwithstanding all that had
Royal Highness had given great spirit to
vice
dear, hear)—and had Introduced system
t-çoted discipline and the efficiency of the ser-
vi~ erieal non and Gallant Officer then read several
stat •
IN and statements relating to promotions in the ser-
oetOtlißtirointtnents in the dock-yar s, but so. rapidly
t"ir e,tIY, that it was impossible to collect his figures
t tPe 4"eation ) From the returns moved for in 1843,
itiln of 141 ar that •
pus that 332 commanders were promoted to the
...;aPtain ; 535 lieutenants were made corn-
trlter he 945 midshipmen were made lieutenants.
f h °at%) This was referred to as a proof that
'tte b
`-2a4 "to great promotion, but what were the
That-thell hadMnianders, 259 lieutenants, and 928 midof ,
, he T died since the late promotion.—(Hear.)
It lltrOtti4ttiln°llght, was enough to show that the principle
g one and one-third had not been carried out
''t t)eir°ol(eirwitB still of opinion that unless they came.
et. ini3YBteal of a retiring list for the navy, it
-,Possible to look for proper economy in pro-
er thee, 'ill thought that the present Government
eft
tleti„ Le for not bringing the navy into a state
tliet Mee (o' "Y expending a small sum of money to in-
e4t, point, retire from the service. Having attained
441 tier 3hOUld say that no man should be promoted
the third
to
s'eae,Y occurred, and.then he should give one-
tak Adwn'"rity. and one-third to what was called
hefeirr:lty appointments"
In the evidence
Nelcleatil):showo. the Shipwreck Committee it was
• ier. Altumie "W Just and expedient it was to promote to
h°seßeoe
3,1?8 'IR landing waiters in the Customs, and
Ui teen i;ttllitions in the Dock-yards—(A laugh)—
/ he theuintne coast guard service, who had distill-
tile en. belYes, by their exertions in saving life.
tai etre, and Gallant Officer then read extracts from
.W:l (Atte', to show that such was the opinion of the
aeeeteeefereXaMined before the' Committee. Ho
as a r 1 navy to the regulations respecting masters
glestlletee Ple rate of remuneration to those officers
se„ e. A the most extraordinary manner ima-
hs`elte as Molester of a three-decker received 2121. per
)4, was pg. 3 salary, which was never increased unless
h °lll°ted es "la 0 a situation in the Dock-yard
lacetie ster of a small brig, or any other small craft,
(")1, than 4th?iearly salary
of 2191., thus receiving 71.
th:re bein ter of the larger vessel, on the ground
airier small Unite. g ne° warrant officer to attend to the stores
ale„`;ttion alt in While it seemed to be left out of con-
thoe tote to oeether, that themaster of the first-rate
lee. store_ c
glee e, but notcertainly to what was known as
*es Were "e Yards rigging, spars &c., all of
.11eillt„dIvettyllAePwan"thcialtaifhis charg, ad this, 'too, when_.it
the Master of a three-decker did
Illeet:,"er Hetet:east be generally' up all night on deck,
tttld, ena,s a gale or the vessel was in near
'act, whenever and wherever (and such

occasions were very frequent) the least duty connected
with his important office was required. So important
were the duties of the master that he (Sir C. Napier)
would not enter upon the command of any ship
unless he had a master upon whose skill and
knowledge he could rely with the greatest confidence ;
yet so badly were things managed that this important
officer in a first-rate vessel was actually paid less than a
similar officer in a small craft. He hoped the Board of
Admiralty would re-consider the position of those
officers. He next came to his own proposition. He
repeated, he approved of what the Right Hon. Baronet
had done, and he only wished to make the Right Hon.
Gentleman's plan a little more perfect, which could be
effected with very little trouble. He would now read to
the House what was his own opinion in the year 1828,
previous to the Right Hon. Baronet's being in the
Admiralty, respecting the constitution of the Board of
Admiralty. Those opinions were addressed to a
Member of Parliament, who in the year 1830 became
First Lord of that Board. (The Honourable and
Gallant Member then read the following extracts:—
" As it is generally supposed the office of Lord High
Admiral is too high a situation for an individual, re-
course must be had to a Board, which, though an irres
ponsible body, may be constituted much better than it
now is. If a civilian must sit at its head he should be
First Lord ; if an Admiral, Commander-in-Chief of
the Fleet ; he should be assisted by the Vice and Rear-
Admirals of Great Britain, which situations should be
abolished as sinecures, and conferred on the two senior
naval Lords, thereby causing a saving of 9001.
a-year. Their duties should be the same as
they now are ; an Admiral as superintendent
of the Dockyards, another admiral to superin-
tend the victualling and medical departments ; a cap-
tain of the fleet to assist the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty in his inspections, and be the man to whom
officers should address themselves, instead of to his pri-
rate secretary, and he should be accessible at all times.
The Treasurer of the Navy, who should be a good
financier and speaker, and who should bring the esti-
mates before the house ; the two lay Lords should be
abolished, and if they really hare any duty to perform,
let our naval officers do it. Attached to this Board (be-
side what there now is) should be a surveyor of the
navy, storekeeper-general, accountant-general, superin-
tendent of transports, physician of the fleet, purser of the
fleet, and adjutant-general of the marines. All cor-
respondence should be carried on with the members of
the Board charged with the department you had busi-
ness with, and, if dissatisfied with his decision, a letter,
addressed to the Secretary of the Admiralty, should be
submitted to them on board-days, and each individual
member should also bring forward such subject as he
did not think himself competent to decide on. When the
First Lord of the Admiralty had not time or in-
clination to make his inspections at the different
naval stations, the vice or rear-admirals should be dis•
patched, they should hoist their flao.s, and, for the time
being, be superior to all admirals; the chiefs of the other
departments, in like manner, should be paramount in
the dock-yards, victualling departments, and hospitals,
but should have nothing to do with the fleet. The First
Lord, accompanied by the captain of the fleet, to in-
struct him in the particular parts which he did not
understand, should be commander-in-chief in all the
departments.") The Honourable and Gallant Member
then went on to say that he wanted to see the naval
Board conducted in the same way as the Board of Ord-
nance was. It was quite impossible that the Accountant-
General could attend to all the things imposed upon
him—such as the description of the fleet, courts-mar-
tial, the management of the various stations throughout
the world, &c. It was thereupon necessary that some
remedy should be adopted for the present state of things.
In respect to the building of ships he admitted there was
a great deal of talent displayed. He gave to Captain
Symonds great credit for what he had done, but Captain
Symonds, like every other man, had his crochets, and re-
quired the superintending eye. There was no doubt he
had built some of the finest ships in the world, and the
Admiralty in employing him had done quite right. They
were right to secure six or seven builders, in order to
have the best work in the end that the country could se-
cure. But he must tell the Admiralty plainly that in
their building they were not so clever as they thought
themselves. The French had a far better class of steam
vessels than England, and the Navy Board ought to be
ashamed of such a fact. Even the Royal steam yacht,
the Albert and Victoria, was a failure in its construction,
and could not sail steadily and properly until 100
tons of ballast had been placed in her. Take the Albion.
She was to be the largest in the British navy,
and it was boasted she should be superior to the
Rodney. Experience had proved that she was not to
be compared to the Rodney. He had now finished the
observations ho had to address to the House, and he
apologised for detaining it so long.—(Hear, hear.) It
was not his habit to trespass on the House, and he had
occupied its attention much longer than usual. But he
hoped what he had said would be received indulgently
by the House, and command the consideration of the
Board of Admiralty.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS said a few words, which were in-
audible in the gallery.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT said the Hon. and Gallant
Officer had at considerable length criticised the manage-
ment of the Board of Admiralty, with respect to the
construction of different classes of ships and other mat-
ters; but he should recollect that these defects existed
in former Boards of Admiralty.
Sir C. NAPIER said he had admitted that to be the
case.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT—He did not wish to mis-
represent any thing that had fallen from the Hon. and
Gallant Member, but those defects ought not to be
charged entirely on the present Board of Admiralty.
With respect to the statements made by the Gallant
Officer, the first related to the patronage of the civil
department of the Admiralty. As a general principle,
it would be intelligible to say that where naval men
were necessary, naval men should be employed in the
civil department, -and were civil men were necessary
they should employ civilians. But they had gone much
farther than this; they had made 612 additional appoint-
ments of that kind to the civil departments of the dock-
yards. He was not opposed to the principle where it
was practicable, that naval men should be employed in
the civil services. He had himself introduced it into
Somerset-house. But he was not blind to the fact that
some inconvenience had arisen from it. If a naval
man was taken as a clerk, he was still looking out for a
ship, and when they went to sea there was a continual
interruption, so that they were constantly teaching men
what, as soon as it was learned, the service could derive
no advantage from. He defended the special promotions
for particular services as absolutely necessary, as rewards
for the dangers not only of war, but of such pestilential
climates as the coast of Africa. With respect to the
Coast Guard, all names for promotion in that service
were sent up to the Admiralty by thp Comptroller, and
his selection was always adhered to ; there .was no in-
stance of the Admiralty having chosen any others than
those so selected. There was, besides, an objection to the
principle of giving promotion in the navy for services
that were not naval. With regard to the masters in the
navy, he should not dwell on the particulars of their
keeping the stores in small vessels, but he might state
that no class of officers occupied more of the attention of
the Admiralty than the masters. They had been
promoted to the rank of commissioned officers ;
one had been promoted to the rank of Com-
mander, and two had been made Lieutenants.
—(Sir C. Napier—" Out of 450 ! ") With regard to
the construction of vessels, no one had a higher admira-
tion of Captain Symonds than he had ; but the Board
of Admiralty did not consider any man to be infallible.
In addition to the ships constructed by him, the Board
had allowed other builders to compete witk him, and
they had at that moment no less than nineteen experi-
mental vessels building, on lines laid down by different
persons ; that competition induced the greatest anxiety
in all of them to give the greatest attention to the
science. With respect to the alterations that had been
made in the ships with round sterns, and the altera-
tions
in the bows and magazines, he contended they were
necessary. They must recollect that as time advanced
science advanced also, and if the Board of Admiralty
confined itself to the present plans of construction only,
they would be behind other nations. Those changes
and experiments could not be made without expense, but
that expense was no more than necessary. He believed
the Hon. and Gallant Officer's own plan of placing the
magazine on board vessels had been reported on, and
stated to be very dangerous. With regard to the
steamer, Penelope, though many accusations had
been made against her, yet on reading the reports
from the officers on board of her, he found her per-
formance highly spoken of. She was stated to have beaten
every war steamer she had met. 'With respect to the
Albion, he read a letter from Commodore Bowles to
Captain Symonds, expressive of admiration at her con-
struction, and stating her to be the finest three-decker
in the world • he also read another letter from Mr.
Northcote, the master, who stated that he rejoiced at
the opportunity of refuting the diabolical assertions with
respect to their noble ship.—(Laughter.) The report of
the particulars of her depth of water when loaded, &c.
contradicted those of the lion. and Gallant Officer. lie
did not quite see what the objections of the Hon. and
Gallant Member to the present system were ; he did not
see what advantage his plan would have over the present
system. The Gallant Officer said, that the Board was
changed at every change of Ministry, and those who
came in were obliged to depend on the information of
the inferior officers. The same objection applied to
every department ; it applied to the offices of the
Secretaries of State. If it was an evil, it was the neces-
sary result of their representative system, which
created frequent charges of parties ; but it did
not apply to the Board of Admiralty more
than to any other department. It was a mistake to sup-
pose that the members of the Board of Admiralty con-
fined themselves entirely to Whitehall; there was also a
regular attendance of the officers at Somerset House.
Before any organic change was made it was necessary
to prove an absolute necessity for it ; it was necessary
therefore, to prove the inefficiency of the present Board.
The present duties were not too much for the Board to
discharge efficiently ; he would not say an addition
might not be necessary in case of a war ; but at present
the Board was quite equal to the discharge of its duties.
He had no doubt that the alterations introduced by
the Right Hon. Baronet (then the Member for Cum-
berland) were required ; they had stood the test of ten
years, and had been found to work well, and he did not
think the alterations proposed by the Hon. and Gallant
Officer were then required.
Captain PECHELL said, the argument that no or-
ganic change ought to be made till the old system was
proved not to have worked well, was used by the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite, and the Gallant
Officer next him, when the sweeping measure
of Reform was proposed, which they both resisted.
The Gallant Officer, not only complained of the con-
struction of the Board of Admiralty, but of the course
pursued by them. He always looked on these matters
without any reference to party. The Board of Ordnance
was arranged in a different manner, and it worked far
better than the Admiralty Board. There was no re-

sponsibility in that Board. On one occasion, Captain
Berkeley proposed an improvement with regard to the
complements of ships ; and, though he considered he
had a majority of the Board with him, he afterwards
found that his proposal was upset in the private room.
He in consequence left the Board. Ile gave the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the' Secretary! of
State for the Home Department, full credit for the im-
provements which he made when at the head of the
Admiralty Board ; but he could not give the present
Board much credit for the mode in which they con-
ducted the navigation of the country. It was a disgrace
to the country, that while France and America had the
Archimedian screw in full operation, the navy of this
country had not a single vessel to which this great im-
provement was applied. He recollected, that in March
last, he complained of the manner in which the Board
of Admiralty had acted towards Mr. Smith, who inven-
ted that invaluable improvement. He was then told
that the Rattler was being completed, and that
this improvement would be applied to her ; but at this
very moment, though twelve months had elapsed, there
was no Rattler in commission. He was aware she was
cruising up and down the river for the purpose of mak-
ing experiments, but it was not Mr. Smith's screw which
was applied. Other machinery had been applied, but it
was always found that the speed of the vessel had
diminished. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman then
referred to the contemplated employment of the Pene-
lope and Prometheus vessels on the coast of Africa, for
the suppression of the slave trade, and said that they
would be of far more service at home. He complained
of the navy being employed to collect the poor-
rates in Ireland.—(Cries of " Hoar.") He recollected
that complaints were made with regard to the employ-
ment of naval officers on the coast guard service. It
was not now looked upon as an invidious service ; but
he certainly was of opinion that it was a disgrace to the
navy to be employed in collecting poor-rates on the
coast of Ireland, and to bring an 84-pounder to bear on
some farm-house in Connaught. It was something
equal to what had been done at Tahiti. He complained
of the ignorance in which they were left with regard to
the experiment made upon the Fox frigate. From the
bow of that vessel 15 feet had been cut off, and 20 feet
of new material had been added. She had been
sent to the Shannon ; and though the whole
naval world were most curious to know the result,
they were left in entire ignorance on the subject.
With reference to the subject of shipwrecks, it appeared
from the Report of the Shipwrecks' Committee, that
officers frequently risked their lives without receiving
any pension as a reward; and even where officers lost
their lives no pension was bestowed. He thought that
some alteration ought to be mile. Great complaints
had been made on the other side of the appointments of
Lord Minto as being of a political character. He thought
there was no foundation for that charge. Admiral
Stopford would not have been appointed to the Medi-
terranean if the First Lord of the Admiralty had been
actuated by political considerations. He would reserve
any further remarks which ho might be desirous of
making until after the Secretary for the Admiralty
had made his statement.

Dr. BOWRING regretted that some uniform mode
of preparing these estimates was not adopted by the
Admiralty. The great error was, that the department
of expenditure was always made the department of
receipt. In the estimates of this year, there was
171,4791. received by the naval department, and de-
ducted from the expenditure. He thought it was ex-
tremely important that the gross revenues should come
into the hands of the Government, and that a different
mode of preparing the accounts should be adopted.
The accounts could never be satisfactory till the princi-
ple was established that whatever was realised from and
for the public service should be paid into the Exchequer,
and that no department should realise for itself. All
ought to be paid into the Queen's Exchequer. He
hoped that, little by little, they should reach the ultima
Thule of his desires in these matters ; but, until they
did so, he should not cease to protest against the esti-
mates in the form and extent which they now assumed.
Captain PLLTMRIDGE had only one suggestion at
that moment to offer to the House. Considering the
high and responsible duties attached to the master of a
vessel in her Majesty's service, he thought it but fair
that ,that meritorious class of officers should be entitled
to gain the rank of captain.—(Hear, hear.)
The House then went into Committee on the Navy
Estimates.

Mr. S. HERBERT (who spoke so hurriedly and
so indistinctly, that it was with the greatest difficulty
a whole sentence could be heard in the gallery) was
understood to say, that after the miscellaneous conver-
sation, which always took place before the question was
entered into, a good deal of matter was cleared away,
and he would show his anxiety to save trouble to the
House by postponing any vote on which there might be
any strong difference ofopinion. Upon the Admiralty vote,
there were two alterations which were not very material.
There was an item for the manufacture of an instrument
to make lunar observations. He was not very well ac-
quainted with scientific pursuits, but this instrument had
received the approbation of Sir W. Herschell and other
eminent astronomers. With respect to the ordnance survey
seventeen surveys were in progress. It was the inten-
tion of the Government to re-establish Deptford as a
building yard. He mentioned last year that a large
steamer had been building there. It was now completed,
and two or three others were in progress of completion.
There was an increase of two hundred shipwrights in
this yard, and of an inspector, necessary for supervision.
At Woolwick dockyard there was an increase of two in-
spectors and fifty shipwrights, There had been also an
additional item of expenditure for this dockyard, viz.,
lighting with gas instead of oil. A school for naval ap-
prentices had likewise been established, and he could
speak from personal knowledge of its efficiency. There
was likewise an item for the manufacture of steam-
engines, and salaries to additional inspectors
for superintending their manufacture. At Ply-
mouth there was no alteration of any importance.
At Chatham an extra expense had been incurred in con-
sequence of the construction of works. He should next
(as well as we could understand firs lion. Gentleman)
refer to the item which showed the expenses incurred
by the copper-sheathing of the several vessels of war in
the dockyards and in the year 1834 the number of tons
of copper applied to that purpose was 463, while in the
year 1840 it had increased to 1,239 tons. In consequence
of an alteration made by the Right Hon. Baronet the
Secretary of State for the Home Department in the
disposal of convicts, a considerable difference would be
made in the amount of the regular paid labour which
would be required for the operations to be carried on
in the several dockyards; but he (Mr. S. Herbert) had
no doubt but any extra expense thus incurred would be
more than compensated for by the superior manner
in which the work would be done. He had now gone
through all the separate items, with the exception of the
smaller and more insignificant, and all that remained
for him to say now was, that a large sum had been ex-
pended in the improvement of the docks ; and besides,
they were gradually getting rid of the more expensive
portion of the machinery in those different stations.
Although it was not possible, at the present moment, to
make any diminution in the numerical strength of the
navy, yet the House might depend upon it that the
strictest regard had been paid to economy, consistent
with the interests of the empire. The number re-
quired in the present estimates would be 30,000 men,
with 10,500 marines, and 2,000 boys.
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to know what were the cir-
cumstances of the country, which could justify the vote
of a sum for the naval service this year which exceeded
that of the year 1835 by nearly two millions of money.
He felt strongly bound to object to the vote for any
item for the support of the marines who were requited
to do duty on shore, for he considered them as part
and parcel of a standing army, and bound to act in
common with the soldiers. What he wanted to know
from the Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary of the
Admiralty, was, what were the necessities of the country
now above those of 1837, which required an increase of
25,000 men?
Sir G. COCKBURN said the Government were
anxious to have a certain number of marines in the case
of our going to war suddenly. Marines were useful,
too, on shore in dock-yards, &c., and in the event of a
war suddenly occurring, when it would be necessary
.at
once to man ships fully, they would suit the service
much better than soldiers, who would become sea-sick.
Besides, it was necessary that we should compete with
other nations, which were extending their marine ; and
as two-thirds of our seamen wore generally on foreign
service, unless we could get the entire command of the
Channel at the commencement of a war, those seamen
would go into French prisons instead of into our ships.
To prevent such a misfortune, an increase in the marine
force would be requisite.
Sir C. NAPIEIs hoped his Hon. Friend would not
press his amendment, as in his opinion they should
rather increase than decrease the number of marines.
He left to the Govermment the responsibility of saying
what number of men were required, but he trusted that
the three guard ships would be efficiently manned, and
not made the depots for decrepid old men. Ships had
been kept seven, eight, or nine months in port before
they were fully manned ; whereas, if the guard-ships
were properly manned, our ships would be able to be
sent to sea without any such delay. He complained of
the provision for supplying the guns from the magazines
with powder, if the guns were fully worked : he had
tried experiments in the Powerful, and he found that
one-third of the men were lying down waiting a supply.
He had her altered accordingly, to give greater facilities.
When the magazines, however, were attempted to be
made bomb-proof, they could only fire nine rounds on
both sides in ten minutes ; and if a better supply could
not be furnished, the ship would be in great danger of
being taken, as the French would fire much quicker.
He complained that the Penelope and Albion had their
ports too low. He advised the Government also to exer-
cise their officers, from the admirals down to the lieu-
tenants, for our men had no practice : whoa first sent to
sea they did not know what a ship ahead or a ship
astern was : and if we suddenly went to war, our ships
would be disabled more from our other ships than from
the enemy.
Admiral DUNDAS was under no such apprehensions
as the Gallant Admiral, of a navy sweeping our navy
from the Channel—(Hear)---for he knew that we had
mercantile steamers, 200 of which were furnished
with 32-pounders, and with those he defied all the
navies in the world to take possession of the Channel.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN explained that he had
entertained no such apprehension, but he had advocated
keeping up marines in case of an emergency. With re-
spect to the alterations in the Powerful, made by the
tTI
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would sail as well as the Rodney, but the latter had the
advantage of higher ports. Admiral Bowles wrote in
the highest terms of her.