The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-17 00:00:00

called for inquiry; and he could only say, if the charges
contair.ed in the petition were true, it was his firm belief
that no Member of that House, be he Catholic, or be
he Protestant, could get up in his place and de-

fend a measure for the maintenance of an esta-
blishment where such doctrines were inculcated.

He appealed to these Hon. Gentlemen to take the
matter into their own hands. Let them judge for them-
selves, and if they should find that the allegations
which had been made were true, he called on them
to have the existing system changed. He called
on them to have the obyctionable class-books removed
from Maynooth, and to free the college from th-, imputa-
tion et inculcating tenets and doctrines they themselves
abjured. He trusted that ht had said nothing which
could fairly be considered es calculated to wound
the feelings of any Honourable Gentleman. He had

endeavoured to Compress within the least possible
compass the observations which he had to make to the
House. He knew that subject had been exhausted, and
he felt, therefore, that it was only necessary f r

him to state the rcascns which had actuated him

to declare with great reluctance his determination of
giving his strenuous opposition to this Bill in all its
stages. When the Hon. Gentleman sat down, at least
_ _

a —dozen Members rose to address the House. The

Speaker, however, called upon
Mr. ELLICE (Coventry), rho said that it was not
his intention (contrary to his general usage),
to give a silebt vote on the present occasion.
So much c xcitement had been got up, and he
had received so many petitions from respectable
bodies of his constituents against the opinion which he
_ _

entertained on this subject, that he felt himself com-

pelled, with much reluctance, to state very shortly

the reasons which would induct; him without the lea;t

hesitation to give his cordial support to the second
reading of this Bill. He might probably hereafter vote

with his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield on the

motion of which he had given notice, with respect
to the quarter from which all funds should
be taken for the advancement of religion
_

and religious education in Ireland ; but he
(Mr. Ellice) was prepared now to state, that if he
should fail with his Hon. Friend in carrying that
proposition into effect, still he would give his support to
the present measure, believing it to be an act of tardy

justice, and a partial restitution to the Irish
people.—(Hear and cheers.) He would not follow the
Hon. Gentleman who bad just sat down, in the religious

objections which he had advanced to this motion

not think, after so many rights' debate, and with he

prospect of as many more—(Laughter)—that he had any
right to waste the time of the House in discussing that
subject. He said this without the least want of respect
to the Hon. Gentleman himself, or the manner in which
he had stated his objections on this subject. But he
(Mr. Ellice) felt himself called upon to give

an opinion upon measures introduced for -the
benefit and advantage of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not follow the Hon. Gentleman into the ex-
pression of those opinions on the religious subjects
which he had brought before Parliament. He could not

say that because his opinions happened to eoincide
with those of one-tenth of the people of Ireland,
that he should impose his opinions on the remainder.

He could not conceive under what circumstances this

country could persevere in a system which thus
outraged the feelings of a great portion of the
country. According to the view of the Hon. Gentle-
man, those who constituted four-fifths of the population
%ere to receive this grant of money from the
Government of this country because they
differed in opinion with him. Why, the Ho-
nourable
Gentleman had expressed his approbation
of the regium donum, and of all the other grants
to the Church of Scotland, and he -could not conceive
on what principle it was that, while he approved of those
grants, and of the approbation bestowed on some
congregations in the north of Ircland, he was
so opposed to any assistance to the Church of Rome,
and the several parties were with respect to the Govern-
ment precisely in the same position.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear," and " No, no," from Mr. Hamilton.) What, did the
Hon. Gentleman mean to say that there was a greater
difference of opinion between the Church of England and
the Socinians, than there was between the Church of

Rome and the Church of this country? In giving his
vote on this occasion, he should be guided by the same
principles as those which had regulated his conduct
during the whole of the time he had held'a seat in that
House—that principle was, that every man in the coun-
try was entitled to equal protection from the State,
whatever might be his creed or opinion. He could as-
sert that the poor Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland
were, in morality, general good conduct, and
conscientious discharge of duty, behind no set
of men in either country. And if they were accused—
perhaps rightly accused—of being connected with the
political agitation in Ireland, he would, in justification of
the patriotic principles for which that body had ever
been distinguished, ask to whom the fault was to be
ascribed? It was well known that the Catholic priest-
hood were dependent upon their congregations—that
they were inwrought with them in sympathy and
interest ; and if they saw a sinecure rector in the
posssession of those revenues which had been wrested
from them by the violence of conquest, was
it to be wondered at that they partook in that agita-
tion through which those revenues were to be recovered?
He did not go back to those subjects, in order to recall
the past ; but in order to assign good reasons why the
Roman Catholic priests had very little cause to be at
tached to their institution. The only difficulty which
he felt on this subject, was his great objection to vote
money out of the public taxes fur any sectarian purpose.
But he believed that this was a great case of exception.
—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the funds applicable to
ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland were those from which
the wants of the Roman Catholic people ought to be
supplied.—(Hear, hear.) There were large funds, and
of all the complaints which he had ever heard in that
House, the most senseless complaint was, that the Pro-
testant Church of Ireland was not amply provided for.
He heard complaints of the want of funds for churches
and schools for the Protestants of Ireland, but were not
the funds which they possessed amply sufficient for those
purposes? Why, the collection of tithes in Ireland was
so odious that the clergy were obliged to give up 25 per
cent. of their incomes. Whenever the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite wished, or was compelled to go forward
in the course he had begun, he must look to those
funds.—(Hear, hear.) The State owed a deep debt to
the poor Roman Catholic people of Ireland, and
he had heard with great pleasure the idea of
restitution thrown out during the present debate.
Looking to the necessities of the people of Ireland, to
their poverty, to their actual inability to supply funds
for the religious education of their priesthood, he thought
it would be an act of unmitigated injustice if the House
were to reject the parsimonious grant now asked from
the public purse. In the north of Ireland there was,
be admitted, a majority of Protestants, but look at the
anomalous position of the Catholics there. On the one
side, he saw the Church of England and the landed pro-
prietors ; on the other, the poor Catholic cottiers, whilst
the Presbyterians held the middle position, being for
the most part the tenantry. They had - endowed
the Church of England there with the plunder
of Roman Catholics, and they gave the Pres
byterians the regium donum, and yet some would re-
fuse the Catholics this poor pittance.—(Hear, hear.)
He asked the House whether after raising the hopes of
the people of Ireland they would now disappoint them?
He did not know what the intentions of the Government
might be—their measures generally came unawares upon
the House; but when he looked at the Bequest 8.11 of
last year, then at Lord Devon's commission, and then at
this Bill, he could not help thinking they were embarked
in a new course.—(Hear, hear.) A course which he en-
tirely approved of, and, he had much greater objec-
tions to veting away this money, he should bs
very reluctant, under the present circumstances,
to give any opposition to it. The former
policy of this House towards Ireland was
now about to be abandoned, and a more conciliatory and
healing course adopted. The people of Ireland had wit
nessed the' disposition of the Legislature. But n hat,
would the consequence be if they were to retrace their
steps, reject the present measure, and resume their
former unfortunate course of policy towards Ireland ?
Why the people of that country would be thrown into
the most abject despair, and civil war would follow the
return of this system. He had stated before, that the
treatment of Mahomet over the nations he bad conquered
was merciful compared to the treatment of Ireland
by England. Mahomet only persecuted one generation,
whilst England had persecuted several.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought the policy pursued by the Government to-
wards Ireland was at present good. Much had been
said about their motives, and certainly the propositions
now laid before the House were very different from those
which had hitherto emanated from a Tory Government.
It was impossible any longer to continue Tory princi-
ples, and he was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site knew perfectly we'l the keen opposition of those
benches if he continued or maintained those principles.
The principle of the old Parliament was to grant money
profusely to everybody. They for instance granted
700,0001. to the Protestant Church in Ireland for many
years, for the purpose of building Protestant Churches.
they granted one million of money to indemnify the
same Church, for its loss of tithes. How then could Par-
liament refuse this paltry grant under present circum-
stances ? There had been a great amount of feeling
expressed on this subject out of doors. Some
of them according with the sentiments expressed
by the Honourable Member for Dublin, but the
largest portion of them depended solely upon one
point—namely, the grant of money out of the public
taxes for sectarian purposes. He concurred with that
principle, and as a rule he would grant no money out
of the public taxes for the purpose of any religion,
either in this country or in Ireland. But it seemed to
him, that an exception was established in the case of the
poor Catholics. It appeared to him that after the enor-
mous grants made to the Protestants, that House could
hardly refuse the small pittance now proposed to be
made to them.—(Hear.) If they refused the grant, it
would not only be pregnant with danger to the
country, but it would be an act of great
injustice to Ireland, and widen the gap which
existed between the two countries. He therefore coun-
' selled the Right Hon. Baronet to go on as he had com-
menced. He, however, did not wish to force him or the
Government to prematurely introduce measures which
might possibly create excitement amongst the Protes-
tant people of Ireland, but he was sure the Government,
by preparing the public mind through calm reasoning,
would at last succeed in-reconciling the Protestant peo-
ple of England to measures calculated to do justice
to the Catholic Church. He had to thank the
House for giving him an opportunity of ex-
pressing his opinion on the subject, and he could as-
sure them that he never sat down with a greater convic-
tion that he was doing right by the country and by his
constituents in giving his cordial eupport to the motion
before the House.
Mr. GORING rose in opposition to this measure,
and said, in answer to the accusations made by Hon.
Members against those Gentlemt s on his side of the
House who opposed the measure, he would only take