The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-29 00:00:00

MAYNOOTH.

The Duke of CLEVELAND presented a petition
from South Shields, in the county of Northumberland,
in favour of the grant to Maynooth; and from several
places in Scotland against it.
The Bishops of Down, Connor, and Dromore pre-
sented several petitions from Leitrim, Tipperary, and
several other places in Ireland, against the grant to
Maynnoth.
L'INION OF THE SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND
BANGOR.

Earl POWIS -presented petitions from Coventry,
from towns in Devonshire, Dorsetshire, and Wiltshire,
and from several places in Wales, against the union of
these two sees.

MAYNOOTH.
The Bishop of EXETER presented several petitions
from Silverton and several other places against the grant

to Ntaynooth.
TREATMENT OF CRIMINALS—NEWGATE.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to bring
before their Lordships' notice a matter which, in his
opinion, involved a gross disgrace to the judicature of the
country. Ills authority was only that of a newspaper, and
he thought that it was not only calculated to excite an irre-
ligious impression, but to induce that which would be dis-
creditable to the law, and injurious to the administration
of justice throughout the whole community. He alluded to
a matter which had occurred at the gaol of Newgate
only yesterday. In referring to this case be felt
bound also to refer to a circumstance which had oc •

curred at the offices of public justice at the town of
Aylesbury only the other day, and in doing so he was
anxious that the authorities of the great city of
London would imitate so good an example. He
found by the newspapers that the public yesterday were
admitted to what was called the condemned sermon in

.fie 4ate. The report stated that in consequence of the
arrang,ments of Mr. Cope, the governor, the public
wer:• admitte l by tickets, and that not the slightest con-
fdsion had ensued. The public were admitted at a
quarter past ten, and at fifteen minutes after that time
the prisoner 'locker was admitted and conducted to his
vat. Shortly after that, Connor, who stood charged
with a similar offence, was conducted to a seat opposite
to that of Hecker. He was happy to find that the au-
thorities at Aylesbury had acted with a much more
judicious discretion, in abiding by the terms of their in-
structions. They had not been willing to pander to a
prurient curiosity; and he was grieved to observe that
the same discretion had not been exercised in the pre

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April S.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hear.
NEW MEMBER.

Colonel AusTIN, ho was introduced by Sir E,
Filmer, and another Hon. Member, took the oaths and
his seat for the western division of Kent.
Oa the motion of Mr. BARRY BALDWIN, the
Totnes Markets and Waterworks Bill was read a second
time.
On the motion of the same HON. 3/EMBER, the Lords'
Amendments to the Sparrow's Herne Road Bill were
agreed to.
The North Wales Railway Bill was read a second time.
Lord PALMERSTON presented a petition from Sligo
in favour of the Dublin and Mullingar Railway Bill.
On the motion of Mr. TATTON EGERTON, the
Runcorn and Preston Brook Railway Bill was road a se-
cond time.
Mr. GODSON presented two petitions from Kidder-
minster against the proposed grant to Mayneoth.
Sir T. HEPBURN presented several petitions to the
same effi.ct.
Colonel VERNER presented three petitions from the
county of Down against the grant to Maynooth, and
complaining that the petitioners had no Protestant re-
presentative in that House.
On the motion of Mr. WAKLEY, the Clerkenwell
Improvements Bill was read a third time and passed.
Mr. AINSWORTH brought in the London, Bir-
mingham, and Sheffield Railway Bill, which was read a
first time.
The London and Norwich Railway Bill was also
brought in and read a first time.
MAYNOOTH.

Mr. W. PATTEN presented petitions from places in
Lancashire against the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. A. CILAPMAN presented petitions to the same
effect.
Sir E. FILMER presented twelve petitions to the
same effect.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER presented several petitions
against the Maynooth grant.
Lord C. MANNERS presented three petitions from
places in Lancashire against the rant to Maynooth,
and also a petition from Walton, in the same county,
praying for the repeal of the malt tax.
Colonel ROLLESTON presented petitions from
Norfolk against the grant to Maynooth.
RAILWAY DEPARTMENT OF THE BOARD OF

sent instance. It appeared that Connor, who was corn-
nitted for a similar offence to that for which Hooker was
aoout to suffer, was conducted to a seat opposite to that
occupied by the convict, and near to the pew of the
Ordinary, the Rev. Mr. Davis. In the course of that
Ree. Gentleman's discourse, to whose observations he
melnt, not to offer the slightest objection, and upon the
I.otilment of his duty he could make no remark which
was not commendatory, Mr. Davis had stated that, since the
crime fur which the convict was about to suffer, another
crone had been perpetrated, for which another young
man Stood before them, committed upon the oaths of
r:vveral individuals. Now, he was far from assuming
tha, The Rev. Gentleman had intended to exceed his
offi.l.ial duty. He was far from saying that
h., had any sympathy with the thtestable
crimes with which these unfortunate individuals
were charged, but he must say that the implication con-
veyed in the observations of the Rev. Ordinary of New-
gate were calculated to be of great prejudice to the pri-
soner, who, by the law of England, at any rate, was
presumed to be innocent. He had no objection to public
punishments. Such punishments might be necessary for
the ?general welfare, but he did object greatly to those
exhibitions which the report of the newspaper said were
more like theatrical spectacles than solemn ceremonies of
the judicature. For these reasons he should, therefore,
feel it his duty to bring the matter formally before the
House.

Lord BROUGHAM would beg to thank his Noble
Friend fur having brought this matter before their Lord-
ships. lie thought there was nothing more detestable
than that the infliction of justice should be anticipated by
a shameful and prurient inquiry into the conduct and
the feelings of the individuals who were placed in that
dreadful position to which his Noble Friend had alluded.
lie quite agreed in the principle that the trial should be
as public as it was possible it could be. He quite agreed
that the sentence should be carried into effect, if it were
possible, before the eyes of the whole world ; but it
formed no part of the sentence—it constituted no part
of the punishment, that the dark cells of the prison
shoul I be invaded, and the privacy of the prisoner should
he intruded t pon during those solemn hours which
elapsed between his sentence and his execution. There
was no necessity for this violation of feelings ; it was
necessary neither for public justice nor private satisfac-
tion. It was requisite to no end, and was in no way
called for by the import of the sentence. And what
made it worse was, that where it was meant for a pu-
nishment it operated as a reward upon that class of cul-
prits to which this unhappy man appeared to have be-
longed ; inasmuch as it gratified the morbid thirst for
notoriety, which appeared to' have almost amounted to
madness, in the case cf the unhappy man who suffered
that morning. As a member of the Corporation of the
City of London, he would take the liberty of giving a
warning to that Corporation of the risk they run of en-
dang,ring their charter by allowing persons to be ad-
mitted to these condemned cells.

Lord STANLEY said there could be but one opinion
with regard to the extreme impropriety and indecency of
the proceeding which the Noble Lord had alluded to.
On the part of the Government there could be no objec-
tion to the motion of the Noble Marquis ; but he must
remind their Lordships that the Noble Marquis had made
his statement upon information which was not authentic.
He would, therefore, suggest the propriety of his post-
poning the motion until the Government had
had an opportunity of communicating with the City
authorities. Nothing could be more indecent than
this collection of persons to witness the appearance
of the convict during the deliverance of the condemned
sermon, and so tar from its having been an act of reli-
gion, it appeared to have resulted in a matter of display.
Two years ago, his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary
for the Home Department, felt it to be his duty, on a si-
milar occasion to the present, to make a representation
to the authorities of the city of London. Upon that oc-
casion he understood his Right lion. Friend received an
a4surance that such scones would be put an end to. If
the Noble Marquis would consent for the present to
withdraw his notice of motion, he would undertake that
hin Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home De-
partaient should make a precise inquiry into the actual
facts ; and their Lordships might rely upon it that the
Government would exercise all the power it possessed
to put an end to such scenes.
The Duke of RICHMOND reminded the House that
the condemned prisoners were entrusted to the sheriffs
of the city, and they were the parties to blame if any
party was to blame in the matter. He would suggest
that an Act of Parliament should be brought in, pro•
hibiting the attendance at the chapel in Newgate of any
other persons but the prisoneo and officers connected
with the gaol.
Lord DENMAN said it was a question of the greatest
importance, and remarked that when a condemned pri-
sonerattended the chapel at Newgate, to receive the last
admonition to be given him in this world, the attendance
should be as private as possible, and particularly when
a person charged with the crime of murder, and who
had yet to undergo his trial, was amongst the congrega-
tion. He could not altogether justify the expressions of
the chaplain. They all knew what effect such expres-
sions had on the mind, and frequently it made the
party to whom they were addressed give vent to feelings
which might induce a stranger to infer guilt, although
the party might be perfectly innocent. Now, fur in-
stance, a juryman might have been present when the
sermon was delivered, and might ho not carry the im-
pressions which the scene and behaviour of the prisoner
had produced with him into Court ?—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL expressed his entire concurrence
with what had fallen from his Noble and Learned
Friend. But in his opinion such scenes as those were a
; and if the
violation of the lawparties. who exhibited
those criminals were indicted, be punished
of
for so doing. In the play , might
easscceerntni
eofnga
murder was introduced, for the purposeg
of ascertaining
the guilt of the King, and it appeareu to him that those
exhibitions NI ere got up for a similar purpose. Lord REDESDALE informed their Lordships that
ou in the
what took place in the morningto,,k place
evening. The Noble Lord adverted to an account
a hick
had appeared in an evening paper, in which it w:ts stated
that the reporters were admitted to the unfortunate
prisoner, who was told of their presence in something
like the following terms:—" Here are the reporters
present, if you have anything to say to them." The
prisoner replied, " I do not feel collected enough to say
anythicg. If I had known they were coming, perhaps I
should have been enabled to say something." That was—
if he had been properly warned that these gentlemen had
intended to have paid him a visit, nc doubt he would
have been prepared for another scene.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE then consented to
withdraw his motion, and the subject dropped.
RAILWAYS AND THE BOARD OF TRADE.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved fora return,
showing the number of Irish railways the Board of Trade
had sanctioned, and showing whether the lines favour-
ably repored were the best that could be marked out, or
whether they were only the most favourable of those
that had been submitted to the Board of Trade. The
Noble Marquis took occasion toas ask
and Cashel Railwaywhether he was
correctly informed, that the Dublin
Company had violated an agreement which they had
,entered into with the Irish Commissioners of Woods
and Forests, relative to the Curragh of Kildare ?
The Earl of DALHOUSIE consented to the return,
and said that he believed that such an agreement as that
stated did exist, and that the Company had, within the
last few days, undertaken not to disturb or enter upon
the Curragh of Kildare. IJ
The motion was agreed to, several Bills were advanced
it stage, and their Lordships adjourned.

THE SUN, LONDON, TrESDAY MOTtNING, APRIL 20, MB.

testant foundations and the Piotestantconstitution of the coun-
try, that they should not be assailed from the only
quarter to which those concessions had been made. He thought
he did net mistake the Right Hon. Baronet when he said that
he had held out expectations of the fullest and most distinct
character to the people of this country that he would determinedly
adhere to the fundamental articles of the union, which pre-
served her revenues not only to the English church, but ex-
tended the same to the unitedchurches of England and Ireland,
and which covenanted to extend the same privileges and per-
manency for ever to the national Scottish Church. He did not
rise to make these remarks from any invidious feelings, for none
could exceed him in sentiments of respect and sincere admira-
tion for the Right Hon. Baronet. In the removal of the Roman
Catholic disabilities he ( Mr. Law) had given the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet full credit for his avowal that he had
removed these disabilities becaase he thought such a
course would strengthen the Irish Protestant Church instead of
weakening it, neither did he doubt the sincerity of the intentions
with which he had brought forward this unhappy scheme. He
regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet had not at an a arlier
period divulged his scheme of Irish academical educatiot. If
the grant had been withdrawn altogether from the College of
Maynooth he should have been happy to assist in any arrange-
ment founded on just and equitable principles, by compensa-
tion or otherwise, to satisfy the parties interested in that ar-
rangement. He had no ungenerous feelings towards the
lf they avowed that agi-
tation
Ca-
tholics of Ireland. On the contrary, for every shilling with-
drawn from the College of Maynooth, he should have been
happy to
could havenotb
givene putthem downfourfold.l3y force, and that they must
have recourse to concession, he (Mr. Law) would ask
how they could come to any other conclusion than
that the power would no longer rest with the
Right Hon. Baronet to grant or to withhold further conces-
sions? If they admitted this principle, it was the first fatal
exi o, the
they
step taken to educate all the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the
thisc countryhurc h Church—when,
tihneste eadduocfatior Churchr of m ntiesnt
extension,
n f
expense of the State. When they knew that there was no tax
imposed
Established
found the slaughter of bishoprics—was it not too much that
when they saw Protestant endowments—sees well endowed and
in their favour the affections of the country—was it not too much
that the national Church should be deprived of its
bishoprics, and a sum larger than their revenues, by
this proposition, granted to the education of the Ro-
man Catholic priesthood in the College of Maynooth ?
He felt that it was irnpoysible they could rest here if this prin-
ciple were conceded. He did not say that the measure in
terms and expressly provided for tire endowment of the
Catholic Church from the revenue of the State, but if the
House acceded to it they could not, at a future time, object
to a proposition for the permanent endowment of that Church.
He, therefore, looked upon this Bill as the last battle field of
the British Protestant constitution.--(Hear, hear.) The
petitions which had been poured upon the table had been
disregarded, but he thought that those rho had so much con-
fidence in the possible duration of that Parliament for two
years to come, as to treat in such a manner these whom they
professed themselves to represent, would find themselves mis-
taken.—( Hear, hear.) All that he ( Mr. Law) had observed
was conclusive to him that, although the motion of the lion.
Member for Sheffield had failed the other night, confiscation
would be again recommended.—( Hear.) The motion of the
Hon. Member for Sheffield had been defeated by a majority
very singular in its elements. It was composed to a large ex-
tent of those who had reason to complain of the course which
the Right lion. Baronet had taken in respect to the principles
in which they had heretofore supported 11;m, and who stepped
in at a critical moment to save him from dagradation—if it
were possible for so high a character to be degraded.—( Hear,
hear. and a laugh.) He (Mr. Law) was sure that whenever
the Church was threatened, and the Protestant foundations of
the empire were in danger, the old supporters of his Right
Hon. Friend would rally round the Right Hon, Baronet, who,
with such troops, had so often conducted them to victory. In
making these-observations, he assured his Hon. Friend that lie
had no &mist of his sincerity:—(Oh, oh, and a laugh.)
Although his (Mr. Law's) proposition was adistinct negative to
the resolution, still he could have well understood a pro-
position to have been brought forward for the endowment of
Maynooth, in which it might be consistent in him to concur.
No doubt the professors of the College had some right to ex-
pect that for their lives at least the grant would be continued.
He would say, give them such a grant freely, liberally, and
generously.—(A laugh.) But then it should he said, at the
same time, that from this moment all connexion between the
State and your College, as an ecclesiastical foundation, must
terminate.—( Hear, and a laugh.) But he would join with
his Right lion. Friend in the establishment of lay foundations,
strictly so, where Christians of all denominations would receive
education, and have open to them alike the prizes of merit,
and the treasures of science and literature. But this measure
had raised another Catholic question, under more painful cir-
cumstances than ever had been agitated before. He was sure
that a majority of the petitioners who had agreed in the uni-
versal prayer against this grant would support a measure for
the general education of the population of Ireland.
—( Hear, hear.) He would have the Irish lan-
guage taught to every class of the Irish people—high
and low.--( A laugh.) It had been said.that the Bill was not a
permanent endowment, and that the Act could be repealed.
Why so could the reformation be reviewed, and the Act of
Union or the Act of Settlement be repealed. But he would
say more of this grant—that it conferred upon the trustees of
Maynooth a saleable interest.—( Hear, hear.) Instead of being
a measure of conciliation, it would only be food for fresh agita-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) New he for one denied the right of any
Minister to convulse the country by such means.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon, Gentleman concluded by moving that the
report should be read that day six months.
Mr. VERNON SMITH had imagined, when he read the
Hon. Gentleman's notice, that he meant to raise some ques-
tion as to the source from which the m iney was to be received,
but, after all, the Honourable Gentleman had merely recom-
mended that the grant should be withdrawn, and the sustenance
of the College left to the voluntary contributions of the Catho
lies themselves, although for fifty years they had taken no
measures fur that purpose. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had said, on his reputation as a lawyer, that the trustees
would have a saleable interest in the grant; but he (Mr.
Smith) would like to know what the value of Maynooth shares
would be in the market 7—(A laugh.) He thought that Hon
and Right Hon. Gentlemen around him had not acted in Ills
matter in the wisest manner. He thought they had been
too readily captivated with the apparent liberality of the grant,
and that they had pledged themselves to the support of the
Government before they had considered to what they were
led. More friends had been sacrificed on the Oppssition side
than on the Alinisterial, on this question, and he did not think
they ought to have run such risks for such a measure.—
( Hear, hear.) There were two monstrous evils in the eccle-
siastical affairs of Ireland—one was, the state of the Pro-
testant Church as it existed, and the other the state of the
Roman Catholic Church as it existed. He did not know xhich
was the greater evil. He did not know whether the Church
of the State was too much overpaid. or the Church of the
people was too much underpaid. But he thought. it would
have become the Liberal party in that House to have first con-
sidered what they were doing before they gave their support to
this measure.—(Hear, hear.) They ought to have consi-
dered whether it would not be possible to reduce the Church of
the State so that it should not be so offensive to the people.
The Protestant Church in Ireland was a deformity and an eye-
sore to the people of England. It was indefensible in its pre-
sent condition, and there was no statesman in Europe that
would not regard it as such. He thought some bold, dec,sive,
and conciliatory line of policy toward= Ireland should have
been adopted, and if so the bugbear of "No Popery" would
not have been raised. The "bit by bit" reforms in religion
were pernicious, whilst the same sort of reform in politic;
might be desireable. As regarded the principle involved in
the measure, it had been over and over again recognised by
the Legislature in providing religious instruction and educa-
tion for our colonies. To urge the foolish argument that
what was done in the colonies should not be done at home,
resembled that sort of argument used by the woman who was
accused of connubial infidelity. She boldly alleged that the
Haut pas was committed beyond the Cape. His reason for
wishing to endo v the Catholic priesthood was, that it would
give them an interest in the welfare of the empire. lie would
wish to see the Catholic
clergindependente of their fl ieks, so
that when a scontented was prevatent thei
might tell their
flocks, ,t we will not join with you—our breed
ao longer depends upon your caprice—the State is inclined to
be just, and we will stand by It, and, on the other hand, if the
State was oppressive, they might say to it, we will no longer
accept of your money—we will again throw ourselves on our
faithful flocks for support." He must admit that this was the
first time that Parliament had voted money for education with-
out inquiring what the nature of that education would be. He
would support the measure as a new measure arid as a new
Bill, because he thought it was the index of a better line of
policy towards Ireland. The Maynooth measure was, after all,
a poor thing.
Much had been said about the favourable
manner in which it had been received in Ireland, but he owned
he could not place much reliance on that sort of disposition
which we were told, by one post, denounced Sir Robcrt Peel,
and that, if he came to Ireland, even Majesty itself would
hardly protect htm
• , and by the next post that the Conciliation-
hall resounded with cheers for Sir James Graham. He did
not see how the improved mode of education in May-
nooth could favourably influence the minds of the
Catholic clergy in Ireland towards the State—( Hear)—if
nothing more were to be done for them; on the contrary, he
thought that after having receised an expensive and elegant
education, they would feel the difficulties of entering upon the
duties of a poor parish much more keenly. The Right Hor..
Baronet would be highly culpable if, after raising so fierce a
"No Popery " cry, and after stirring up so much bigotry, he
did not persevere in this course of conciliation, and bring in
large, comprehensive and healing measures for the Catholics of
Ireland. His reason for voting for the grant was, that though
he considered it a small measure it had achieved two great
ends—it had terminated the religious question as regarded the
Legislature, and established the precedent of Roman Catholics
receiving State money for their Church. lie would not re-
proach the Right Hon. Baronet with inconsistency, though he
thought it would have been a great saving of his political repu-
tation, if he had in 1829 retired from the Cabinet and allowed
others to carry it.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—But would you have carried it if you
had not left office ?
Mr. VERNON SNIITH—The Right Hon. Baronet might
have come down as an individual Member and supported the
measure, which would have been much more decorous. He
hoped, however, that in giving his support too this measure, he
might v, nture to hope that the Right lion. Baronet would not
stop at that ; that he would not propound great principles
merely for the purpose of effecting, sma • IL ends, but that regard-
less of all opposition from this side of the House or that, he
would persevere with those measures of conciliation towards
Ireland, which
would be the most certain means of leading to
the peace and prosperity of that part of the United Kingdom.
Lord NORREYS id he did not think that this mea-
sure had yet been properly sifted•
The people of this country
had been led by the representations they had heard to believe
that the measure now before Parliament, in reference to
endowment of Maynooth, came before the House for the first
time, instead of means having been taken to convince them
of what was the real fact—namely, that it had been before the
House every year for the last fifty years, and that the proposi-
tion now before the House was really nothing more than a
re-assertion of that principle with the details carried out upon
a more liberal and extended scale.—(Hear, hear.) Every
person who knew anything of L eland must know, that the
Roman Catholic religion had been, and was, and would he, the
religion of the majority of the people of that country ; and was
it not theref ire plain that any vote against this measure would
be looked upon by the Irish people as a vote against
their religion. The question appeared to him to be
regarded by those who opposed i differed uestioa of religion
or no religion. Now, though hefrom the tenets of
the Roman Catholic faith, he would much prefer to have the
Roman Catholic reliaion than no religion at all.— (Hear,
hear.) He had heard it objected, too, that this ea
g ant
was to be paid out of the, income-tax ; but even if it were,
surely so small a sum could rot affect that tax. But the ab-
surdity of such a proposition was so plain that he would not
further dwell upon it. As to the objection that had been
raised to it, that this grant should not be made to the excld
there for
sion of the Dissenters, he would beg to ask how soul
a moment be any comparison maintained between the two ?
In Ireland they had a Protestant establishment, and the Dis-
senters were also paid there, and yet great opposition was
compara-
raised to a measure which proposed but a very small
reat ity
tive suns for the education of the clergy of the g
of the people of that country.—( Hear, hear. ) major He
had also heard it objected, that the Right Honour-
able Baronet, who had brought forward this measure,
ought to have been the last man in that House to have done so,
upon the ground that it was inconsistent with his usual course
of policy. Now he (Lord Norreys) begged to say that he had
been for the last fifteen years a Alember of that Howie, and,