The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-17 00:00:00

MR. OWEN'S PLAN.

Sir W. De CaESPLGNY aajd, it was with COO'
siderable embarrassinent that he addressed t"
Iloose, as he had hoped that some Gentlemott°
more conversant with Parliamentary diseussioo
would have stepped forward to advocate the cultic
of the suffering poor. The question he hAd to
propose, was not one of party, but of brouanitil
and it it were entertained by the House, he shotiki
consider the circumstance a harbinger of heti°
times. Want, and the evils atteudiug ware, 5°
pressed upon the population' o!. the country, thsc
a general idea prevailed that the House shoohl
something to relieve the distresses of the poor;
and that the higher must condescend to invasti.
gate the condition of the lower classes of the
community. He had to propose to the considers*
tion of the House, a nlan which would, in bit
opinion, conduce to the beneficial end they alas/
hove in view. He was, at any rate, anxious to
bring it to the proof. He knew that it avii°
called by some wild and visionary, but it 01
deemed more visionary by those who had coo9i.
tiered it perhaps for half an hour, than by O.
who had devoted to it 30 years of attentive con'
sideration ! The power of mechanism had no's
produced such effects upon society, that, withoil
extraordinary efforts_ to relieve them, a number"'
individuals must perish or sutler evils worse ditto
death. The circumstances of the last thirtt
years had made a change in the intern"'
policy of the country absolutely 'necessary"
and the question was, whether it should (014,
place, step by step, by season, or be brougls'
about by prejudices and ignorance, or, perhelt
through the convulsion of revolution. Under thw
pt esent systetn, the unemployed poor fed on ths
labour of the industrious, communicated thl
bad habits acquired in idleness to the genet)
mass of the poor, amalgamated with them, an
taught them their bad habits. The only r‘'
reedy for this evil was the prevention of OA
mischief at the root. Education was the soot'
of good and evil. He had seen the effect:
of it at New Lanark. They there began
a period which would not be expected :
two years old. He had there seen a Pial.
of ground, tvi,re hundreds of children, ft•P'
17,J to seven years old, were amusing themselves;
there was among them none of those marks of ntgoi
levolenee or quarrels, they were vying in acts
kindness to one another. In the schools for e!(
der children, they were taught the Bible and thci
duty to God and man. He had seen those vl/11e
had arrived at the age for labour, He had set's
them going to their labour after dinner. Sir V/11:
de C. then read two letters which he had receive",
the first recommended the establishment alb
-plan in parishes, by giving facilities to the met'
gaging of the parish rates and to the sale of cant
i
mons tor • the purpose. The second letter '44
from the Bishop of Chester, who gave an
count of an experiment he had tried on a living u;
which he had resided, by letting his glebe 1411
amounting to 70 acres, in small portions of h!ci
an acre or mote. This plan, his Lordship Wit;
had,. kept under the Poor's-rate, and had giver'', f
poor a feeling of independence and respect I°,
themselves. In the present distress of the cost'
try, it the House did not inquire into such a Pli.sae,'
they worald, in his opinion, act in a very 00",7
coming manner. The plan was the result of
years experience of Mr. Owen, of Lanark, and,,
Was founded on the spade cultivation. A Gen",,,
man in the neighbourhood of Newcastle had pr°_,i
ed, that by this mode of cultivation, the prtail‘Tt
had been raised to 7or 8 quarters per acre. `',4
time time of Adam Smith the national object t,
to increase wealth, an object which had beets
tallied by the power of mechanism to a deed
which was surprising. The great object was is s,
to re-moralise the poor. He concluded with 10°A
ing for the appointment of a Committee to intro
into the Plan of R. Owen, Esq. and to exatt!le
how far the whole, or any part of it was apPlicp,
ble to the amelioration of the condition of the
botsriog classes, or of the application of the 511""
raised for the relief of the poor.
11
Lord A. HAMILTON said, that as he WA. Vtl
acquainted with the county in which Mr. o°lV:a
establishment was situated, and as he knew 000
large class of the poor in the same district sverf
a situation of great distress, he could not re°,l,
to support the motion. lie would not be rol'lto
sible for the numerous theories connected ‘,ta
Mr. Onren's,plan, but he knew that the prinqig)
upon which the establishments of that intiPliti
Intel been conducted had produced the best co of
Among the distressed inhabitants of the Colc,
which he represented, there was a great ate,
tation of some advantage from the general ads
lion of Mr. Owen's plan. He was aware 01 litt
were many prejudices against this plan, baleDs
had witnessed the most extensive, as well ss
most minute benefits arising from it ; accts thi)o
he would not undertake to say how far it or
practicable on a larger scale to bold societies I,ft
gether by the same bond of union and symill.lo,
it was not too much, under the present
stances of the country, to examine it• 'Dar
were not obliged to take the whole of the Pair,
but if any part of it could be taken, an lug

would bebeUeficiaL
littouctrArd supported the motion.--It
admitted, on all hands, that rymelt distress pre` r 0
rtl. It appeared to him, that if the House sv,,
to give sanction to al! die wild parts of Mr. Ovvi_ie„"(
Ilan, if would do more iojttry than service. ",e'
at the same lime, the House might seer a .Ij,!i
crrse, granting an inytiry. He differed ".1.10
Owen on many parts of his svveio,
lady ai to his ides coiicerning populatioo•
was a subject upoo which the grossestcallWiDo
were propagated by tie mischievous part °f c!le,
public press. lie believed, that the excess it)
population was the great cause of the
which ptev.iled. He believed, i"'lce`;'bc
thee.wcie radical remedies, cart ibie

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to ehis „niecee.4 ; loest 'they were nil
Igch a nature, that the mere proposition of
ti ti)ent, in a time like the present, would subject
author of -them to such an out-cry as would
elid very strongly to diminish his means of
tteefuluess. In order to render them effectual,
the-author should wait for a calmer period to pro-
Pose them. He differed toto ceelo from Mr.
t)...Wen's principles, particularly that encouraging
the increase of population. But still he -thought
" "it there were some of the details capable of pro-
Ilecing benefit. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
:4"n approved of Mr. Owen's principle of sub-
aleetieg the infant mind at an early period to the
impressions of education. In elucidation of this
1"1"ciple, be referred to an establishment for edu-
retiou of children in Switzeilaud, very much on
'l,e plan of Mr. Owen, and differing horn it only
inasmuch as one was adapted to an agricultural
totretry, the other to a state of crowded popille-
li"th Nearly the same system was now going on
kvithin a few yards of 'where they wete now
and going on successfully.—(Hear 1.)—
de believed that a more honest and amiable man
than Mr. Owen did not exist. Truth and the
benefit of • mankind were the great objects he
hid in view. Ile was totally free from the usual
v4nity of projectors. With his assistance, he
1--Nlr. B.), the Hon. Member for Braunber, and
tome other friends, bad, by their own means,
commenced to put a plan of a seminary into prac-
flee, whit') was going on so well, that they ex-
Peered from it the greatest benefits. The', had
already a year's experience of it ; and it might be
leen and examined by any person who wished to
11.'O and see it in Brewer's Green. As ta the goes-
lint' before the House, he Was anxious for in-
41nirv. tha' the good parts of Mr. Owen's System
tniehe he separated trout the had—(l-ieer. hear !)
The Cureetcreeon or the EXCHEQUER eXptes
Ills happiness to see that Gent lemee, on all sides
of the House, were errally ready, graciously, to
'consider any plan which professed to have in, view
the relief of the distress ot the people. This was
certainly a Most grateful spectacle, and most serve
conaonce the country, that whatever diflerence
'of parties nrigiot exist in that House, there was no
of feeling, no division of sentiment., that
count illeifere with the fair and liberal considera-
tion of any propositiim designed for the general
rood —gilds'', hear !)—On these grounds he wits
Pleeseo with the debate, although he could not
agree to the ii ntinn. For lie could toot
consent to give the sanc:ion of the high au-
thority of that House to- a plan which was
),ot only wild and visionary in its prin,iple,
but actually Oaneerous to the Sate. He gave
.credit 0,,e40 tor all the qualities escriheol
In him be th, Learned and Hon Gentleman who
had just sat eown ; for he had heard from -Gen-
tlemen who had been at Lanark the most .favour.
able aCeount•• of the operation of that Gentle-
Inan's system, But yet lie could not shut his
eyes- to the general adoption.of such a sys'em.—
Ilis conception Of that dauger was formed from
the Irtegeteee of Mr. Owen himself, on submitting
plan to tie cousideretioe of a Punlic Meet-
ilug at the City of London Tavern in 1817, when
that Gentleman distincily declared, that lie was
not of any religion in the world, aud that he be-
lieved all religious wete rounded in error. Far-
ther, Mr. Owen sae!, that taxation was a curse,
lid that all law mid government wete abeses.—
tie did not quote these passages with a view to
propose any prosecution, but merely to shrew the
House that a plan should not receive its counte-
neece whicheaccording to its ant boteinvolved a priu-
cinie,and was likely to teed to cousayeences subver..
*lye of all the religions and governme sits in the world.
en these grounds, he ehought that thiS motion
IHight to be negatived, and that no inqooiry should
be instituted by .that House which might appear
to sanction Air. Owen's phi), especially as it op-
Peered from svhat had bean stated by the Learned
Gentleman who haul just sat down, that whatever
*as useful to that plae with respect to education,
/night be-acted upon without any interference oti
the part of that House. But it appeared that Mr.
Owee's plan was discountenaticed by the un-
biassed juegment of the public; for at the first
Meeting which he addressed et the City of' Lon.
don Tavel"), his propositions were rejected ; and
on the mot toteof a ‘Vorthy Alderman it was voted
that a Parliamentary Reform. .which with some
"hinds was it panacea for every evil, was the only
letnedy for the distress of the people. It was,
110 doubt, true, that at n second public meeting a
Committee was appointed, and a subscription voted
for makieg an experiment of this plan ; but then
it tinned out that in this country of unbounded
liberality—tear iii a city of unbounded wealth,
the subscription completely failed. With this
ceideece then of the public opinion, and with the
-recollection of what he haul quoted as to Mr.
-PVett's sernitneots, he thought the House would
.feel that this project could nut be consistently en-
tertained.
Mr. J. SMYTH bore testimony to the character
of Mr. Owen, particularly as it was evinced in
the conduct of his establishment at Lanark. It
'Tittered, indeed, that such was the system upon
'illicit this establishment was conducted, that
'luring a period of limner') years not one of
its members bad ever been accused, or taken be-
foie a Magistrate for any offence. This was, he
believed, more than could be said of any society
in the empire, not even excepting that House
itself ; and was it -trot incombeut upon Perlia-
inent to have some general experiments made of
system produCtive of such happy effects ? He
lairrented Mr. Owen's declaration of the senti-
inents quoted by the Chancellor of the Excite-
spier, especially with respect to religion ; but he
argued that these belltiMellls CORI(' form no 1.8-
'61111,J objection to a lair trial of -the plan under
consideration.

tee CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained.
Mr. 11.1cAano, in delivering his opinions, wtnt
Wrote at large into the general state of the coun-
ttY. He said he was at war with Mr. Owen's
tpecomive plan, as not founded on sound prin.
tipkb 01 political economy. He denied that ma-
t:hiocry could ever do mischief. It was true that
particular branches it might produce too much
t►r a COMMOdity, en;t►►n or cloth for example, but
the moment that was felt it would be withdrawn
itoui that and employed in other ways. But
I,lit• Owen, the ct►emy to machinery, yet wish-
tti to introduce a new IlltiChitit:Ty of greater

I..tivr„e, Ile woJtI in:tau:2e the a:tn
Though be drift:led so much from this Gentle-
man, he was for appointing , the Committee,
were it only to ascertain, if true, that spade
husbandry was much more productive than any
other. This was a question of the utmost
importance ; as the greatest desideratum of the
pt esent time was to supply a demand for labour.,
He was no friend to dividing the country
into parallelograms, according to Mr. Owen's
proposition, nor to a community of goods. Every
man should be independent anti work for himself,
in which he was likely to 'do most, and was at the
same time equally working for the community.—
He expressed his agreement with Mr. Brougham
on the question of population, and argued that
the roily remedy for the distress thus occasioned
was to be ((mod in an increase of capital. Gen-
tlemen seemed to have a very erroneous notion
when they called out for employment, merely em-
ployment, for the poor, Employment %via molting,
and could do nothing, sunless it was founded on an
augmentation of capital. It was otherwise only ex-
cliauging one evil for another, by withdrawing
fonds to create work from where they were in ope-
rat ion giving Nark. On the subject of our distresses
here were, he thought, smite evils for. which
Government was not to blame. The great cause
might be discovered in the natural state of the
errantry with a great capital, a great population,
and a limited soil. The consequence of this was-
a lowness of profits, and wherever the profits were
low, the capital would have a tendency to seek
countries where they were higher. If these
countries, by a wise system of Government, so-
wadded security to the other inducements, capi-
talists would more readily overcome their repug-
nance to have their property not under their own
eye. When capital was diminished, the poor tie-
cessarily got Out of employment, and great dis-
tress ensued. These wet e natural causes of dis-
tress, which no man on earth could control. But
had we not added artificial causes to these Did
not even our Corn Laws_ by rendering wages
high and profits consequently low, increase the
inclination for capital to leave the country, while
the same laws hurt our competition with fo-
reigners. The same arguments applied to onr com-
mercial re,trictioos. The prohibitions on foreign
commodities made those things dear, which we
might otherwise purchase cheap ; and this was
done in retaliation; but lie color:tried that we
ought always to be allowed to go to the cheapest
market, as by this means our capital would be im-
proved. The National. Debt—t hat system of bor-
rowing at compound interest—and accumulation
of taxes, was another great cause of deterioration.
The taxes were so enormous, that it became a
question with many whether they should quit the
country and enjoy the capital they had realited in
another. In these various ways the sources whicli
would give employment to the population were
diminished and dried up. Last year they had
adopted a judicious course to remedy this evil in
part, by agreeing; to return to specie. It was
witeooo, not to do this at once, but to devote two
or three years to the change. They ought to do the
same with the Corn Laws, and return by degrees
to a good system, which should leave us unfettered
in our purchases of grain. A similar plan would
be beneficial to our commercial relations ; the
more free they were 'he more advantageous for
the country. It we proceeded as we were doing
now, our errors would he eternal. As for the
National Debt, he was aware that his opinions
might be thought extravagant upon that sub-
ject, but he would 'pay 'it off by one great
sacrifice of capital.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He
would not in, that case think that justice re-
quired him to pay at par ; the market price would
be fair towards the stockholder. And with re-
gard to the objection, that the sale of lands to
meet this demand would be ruinous, it was easily
obviated by observing that the footled proprietor
paid woulu have his capital to invest itt the-pur-
chase of land, or in lending to the fainter or land-
lord, especially when Government was no longer
borrowing. We had not yet come .near , the
bounds and extent of our national greatness and
prosperity. It was only in comparison with other
countries that our distresses seemed so great, and
if we only contrived to counterbalance the ,ternp•
rations which were held out to invest capital
abroad, we should wee very different times from
the past. He was for going into this inquiry.
Mr. N. CALVERT thought the spade-husbandry
quite inefficient, as it wad not calculated to go
through the year.
Mr. \VAITHMAN considered the plan to be wild
and visionary, but .would vote for a Committee,
were it only to demonstrate its absurdity. 7 Be
was also of opinion that it might be partially use-
ful ; and concluded by inveighing agaihst the
weight of taxation as the cause of all our na-
tional distress.

Lord ALTHORP agreed in the principles,
_laid
down by illr. Ricardo ; but, with respect to the
Corn Laws, held, that the country'hati better pay
a tax to secure a supply at home, than ,to dimi-
nish the returns already too small to the agricul-
tural interests. lie was against the motion, as,
if they went into Committees merely to prove the
absuidity of plans submitted to them, as sug-
gested by the Hon. Alderman, they would find
they had little time to attend to any business of
real utility. As 'for the spade husbandry, if it
possessed the advantages stated, the public would
soon adopt it, and ought to be left to follow its
own inclination.

Mr. CALcnArr was very adverse to the plan,
and advised the withdaawal of the motion.

bir C. I3URRELL complimented Mr. Owen on
his humanity, but could not praise his judgment.
His plan, if acted upon, would ruin all the little
traders in the kingdom. The spade-husbandry
had been tried in hop countries, and therefore it
was not new; it sometimes succeeded, and some-
times failed. It was absurd, however, to calcu-
late upon, it from the result of a few seeds sown in
a garden. The uantity thus produced could ne-
ver by possibilit} be grown on a single acre of
land. The system would indeed be bringing agri-
culture back to a state of nature, and not one-
tenth part of the country could be tilled by it.
He too would alter the'Corn Laws, but exactly
for an opposite purpose to that of the lion. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Ricardo.)
Mr. ‘l7msexFottets took a similar view of the
question with the Chancellor of the &chequer.

'ilia basis of Mr. Owen's plats watt a system of
morals contrary to Christianity, and while th 4
supported Christianity as the. only foundation o:
morality, they must oppose that plan. It it were
not in their power to repair those evils, Le
thought the House should at least show an
anxiety to alleviate the distress of the suffering
districts. An Hon. Member - behind hint (Mr.
Ricardo) had spoken of the misapplication of ca-
pital as heing one of the causes of the distresses of
the country.. There was no one to whom he lis-
tened with greater, pleasure, or for whose neinion
he had greater deference, titan that Hon. Gentle-
man ; hut although he differed with him on many
points cm this subject, be entirely actordcd with
him in thinking that land could not with propriety
be looked upon es capital. It was not possible to
turn it, e.,tr make those ready changes with it,
which could he so easily effected with capital.
It was not possible to believe, that with great
wealth on the one hand, and great distress on
the other, there was that want of benevolence in
the country as to allow this latter description to
perish in the absence of their aid. He was sure
that all most unite in a common desire to alleviate
them. He also agreed with his Hon. Friend,
that this country had not yet seen its last days of
greatness and prosperity. It would go on in its
present course—in the true road to prosperity—
in the way of education on moral principles.
Without good morals there could be no political
vigour. It was not to be supposed that we, who
had been discovering, to the whole extent of the
moral end political world, a regular gradation of
intellectual improvement, should cease to make
that progress onrselves which we had been so
successful in teaching others to do.
Mr. Alderman IVoon, while he objected to
some parts of the plan, thought it rather hard that
Ministers should at once reject it, when it was, in
fact, the first which had been sehmitted to them
calculated for the general employment of the
poor. If his Majesty's Ministers would come for-
ward with any measure which might equally be-
nefit the poor, by employing them in redgeming
the waste lands of this country, he had no doubt
the Hon. Baronet woald withdraw his motion :
but he trusted he would not do so in any other
case.

Sir CHARLES BURRELL explained,
11r. MAXWELL said, he hoped tire•Honse would
not refute the committee.,
Mr. D. W. HAUvEY defended Mr. Owens theo-
logical principles, which he conceived the Hon.
Member, (\lr. Wilberforce,) no doubt, tininten.
tionally on his part, had misrepresented. He sup-
ported the motion.
Sir Wm. DE CRESPIONY shortly replied ; and
addressing himself to the ministerial benches over
the table, asked ii Hon. Gents. were preimred with
any,meastire on the subject No answer being re,
turned, the lion. Baronet pressed a division ; and
seem dinely;. strangers being ordered to wi:hdraw,
the House divided ; when the numbers were—

For the Committee
Against it l4l
•Majority -125
SCOTCH NIANUFACTURING DiSTRICTS.

Mr. Max wELL tote to call the attention of the
House to a subject which appeared to him to he
of so much importance, that he felt he s,,ould
have been guilty of a great neglect of duty had
he not brought it under their. consideration.—
He alluded to the distress existing in the manu-
facturing districts of Scotland„.lind more espe-
cially in the county of Renfrew. In that county
the manufacturers were reduced to such a state as
to be utterly incapable of self-support. After de-
scribing at considerable length the nature and the
extent of the distress in that county, the Honour-
ableMember proceeded to observe, that several
subscriptions had been raised for the purpOse of
alleviating it. These being at length found
sufficient, and all hope being abandoned of being
,able themselves to remelts the evil, a petition
was presented- to his Majesty's Government de-
scribing the local distresses, and adverting to
the existence. of that , insubordination which
always, accompanied wont. It could not be expect-
ed that the county of Lanark should support the
numerous' strangers who hadibeen brought thither
for the purpose of Working in the. Manufactories,
but who were now .nuenaploy.ed—When he stated,
among other considerations, that the rental of the.
county was almost entirely swallowed' up by this
evil, he conceived' himself entitled to call on the
Government and the 'Legislature to afford some
aid; and by so doing,hc was persuaded not only
. that they .would not in reality trench on the na-
tional funds, but that in quieting tumult and dis-
affection, they would prevent a:material defalca-
tion in the revenue. The Hon. Gentleman' pro-
ceeded to advert to the various causes in which, in
his opinion, the existing distresses had origi-
uated. Among them was the sudden check which
had , been given to that policy, 'which had for
so long a tie, determined, the labour of the
country towards mattuft-alums—Another -cantle.
of 'the 'evil was the' diminished circulation in
the shape of wages; —Which the redectihn of
taxation consequent on the return of peace, Oc-
casioned. . A third cause was the alarm pervadipg
all the western parts of Scotland, inducing many
persons to withdraw their capitals. On these and
various other ground's '(Which the Honourable,
Member detailed ',at considerable length), :he
thought Parliament would be warranted in making
some grant on-the subject ; the more especially as
.it was not likely that the necessity for legisia-
tive interference would recur. lint even were
his motion rejected;
.he was persuaded that
the discussion of it would not be Imo.
tended , with advantage:, IT was highly de-.!
sirable that those who wished to emigrate,
but`who could not raise the-ten pounds required
for that., purpose, should be assisted. Others
might have the burdens' which they endured
Persons who were unable to exist,
should be relieved from,: 'taxation altogether. la
making this.observatioo,,he alluded more particu-
larlsyto the Irish population.. It was necessary
that the burden of supporting 'the poor s'uonld
not fall exclusively upon ihe land owner. 'Phis it
was. which caused so much, disaffection in both
countries. Let the House consider whether, from
what they had heard, they did not sUpr,oae that the
discontent of the country did 'not irriseinure from
want than from disaffection—( Her !)-1t sstia;said
that Radical Reform wits wbay'ue people wanted.

This cry alarmed hundre,ls of thous Ands; but the
cause of the ahi• rn was tf7e ,listresses, the
w,n,s, of the people. The middling orders of so-
ciety were idonlified with
_those ‘N.,!() were the
agents of prodoctive labour. -Let the people sec
that their wants were attended to, and they would
be toutol quiet and tractable ; they woohl be
found ame;iable to the Laws, and 5 npporrers ot the
Constituti,n. The Him Member concluded by
nnovinz, t!,ar there be laid before the House Ctyies
of the different Memorials presented to 'he 'Trea-
sury relative to the Distresses laboured under by
the Population ot the County ot Renfrew.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH;.QUER observ-
ed, that his Majesty's Ministers bad in all cases
shewn a readiness to relieve the distresses of the
country, where their inti-rterruce could be pro-
ductive of beneficial effects. He was aware, and
so was the House, that much distress was elnsed
by a transition front war to peace, by a chan!.:l
of fashions, noel by several other causes. Tt
Right Hot). Gentleman, in order to spew th t
anxiety of Ministers to relieve the distiessei t f
the country, read the following letter :
(COPY.) a Fife House, 14th Dec. 18'li.

"MY LORD—I have had the honour of receiving yoir
Grace's letter. I informed you some days ago of the
of proceeding which had been adopted in consequence of
application from the City of Glasgow.
" A Petition has been presented to the House of Commons
from that place, and measures are in progress fur carrying
into effect the prayer of that Petition.
" As soon as the que,tiwt of security can be settled to
the satisfaction of Pal liament, Government will have no dif-
ficulty in making an advance with a view to immediate re-
lief.

" Your Grace does not seen► to be asvare that the Govern-
ment of this Country has no fund atits disposal for the relief
of thy distresses of the Poor; that the People'of England pro-
vide for their Poor by Local Assessments, and that it never
cou'd be expected in reason or ju,tice that they should be
called upon gratuitously to provide for the Poor of the other
parts of tb United Kingdom (where ❑u assessment exists) in
nein' i)t) to their own.

" If the dist,:ct of Lanark, or any other of the distressta
districts of Scot::ind, will apply to Parliament for leave to as-
sess tl emselves in aid of their NU, Government will have

no difficulty in recommc•n%3in„ -under the special circurn-,
stances of the casr, that advances shall be made on the secu-
rity of such assessments ; or, if any Plan can he proposed to
Pat liam,,nt for giving vuiployment to the Poor, by means of
local improvements, Government will have the same disposi-
tion to forward the object.by temporary advances where .ea-
sortable security can be giver► for ultimate repayment.
.6 With respect to emigration, your Grace is already ac-
quainted with my sentiments. The object, important as it is
in itself, can, from its iature, only admit of gradual accom-
plishment, and to attempt a too extensive and hasty execution
of such a Plan coald only lead, in addition to unlimited ex-
pence, to tire ruin and destruction of those whom it is wished
to relieve.

" I request.tbat your Grace will communicate these sen-
timents to the Gentlemen with '.whom )ou correspond, and at
the same time inform them, t hat if t hey will come forward with
some specific proposal, on the principle of that of Glasgow.
Government will have every Disposition to give the most
liberal and indulgent consideratio.oo it, and to recommend
it, if possible, to the adoption of Parliament.
I have, &c. .

•—• (Signed)
" His Grace the Duke of Hamilton."

" LIVERPOOL.

This, the Right Hon. Gentleman conchided, was
a proof that Ministers were alive to, and anxious
to relieve, as much as in their power, the distresses
of the country.
Mr. Piumnosit supported the motion of his
Hon. Friend. If the distresses of the country
were to be permanent, so ‘voilld discontent also
berpermanent ; if the people were to remain un-
e►niil►ryed, then sedition would spread itselt through
thecomitry. The li►►n Member, after a variety
,of arguments, concluded by supporting the
motion.

Fimt-sY bore testimony to the exertions
made by Mittistep to relieve the distresses of the
country.

Mr. J. P. GRANT, in a speech of considerable
length, argued in favour of an i❑quiry into the
distresses which Were so generally allowed to
exist in Scotland. He hoped and trusted that the
miserable situation of the poor who were starv-
ing in tilat.conntry, would meet the commisera-
tion, and receive the assistance of his Majesty's
Ministers.

111 r. Hostus,ori defended his Majesty's Minis..
ters from any charge of inattention to the wants
of the country. The Honourable IVltmber re-
ferred' the House to the letter or the First Lord
of the Treasury to,the.Duke of Hamilton, as a
proof that Government .were not only not care-
less of, but solicitously alive to, the interests and
welfare of the people of the United Kingdom.
Mr. GRANT explained.

Mr. TIERNEY maintained that much of the dis-
tress which now prevailed in Scotland and other
parts, was brought on by the impolicy of Go-
vernment, the issue of Bank paper, nut convertible
into specie being one of the measures that pro-
duced it. But the great question was, whether,
iii point of fact, the people of these districts were
no),v in a state of starvation, and whether ally
remedy eauld he applied ? Every one in the House
admitted the fact of extreme distress, every
one confessed that elley knew not what should be
done, but that something ought to be done.—
. But when Ministers came I °maul to do that some-
thing, they produced coercive Bills. Did they
really expect that tranquillity could be restored in
Scotland by dint of law and military force while
thiugs remained in such a state ? lie was awatrt
that Government was placed its a difficult shod-
lion, and therefore did not wish to bear hard upon
them, but he would submit, whether by assess-
ment something more efficacious might be done.
lie trusted that the House would proceed, either
by Cormnittee or othet wise, to investigate the
subject, and endeavour to make some provision
against an evil of so serious and melancholy a
nature.
Mr. MARRYAT took a review of the causes that
produced the present distrc•s, which he attribtned
principally to the pressme of taxation, end the in-
jury produced by the peace on the manufacturing
interests.• the ►hought that the whole question
ought to bi taken up in a :.Lire enlarged vicw,