The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-30 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 29.

CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS
(IRELAND) BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM in proposing the second reading of
this Bill stated that he would shortly advert to the cir-
cumstances under which the measure bad been brought
forward. It was impossible to conceive any subject of
greater national importance than this. There were three
principal defects in the existing Act. The first was the
constitution of the board, and the next was thatof chang-
ing the uses pointed out by testators on the ground of
expediency ; and the third defect was the absence of the
power to endow with land' in perpetuity. It was to re-
medy these defects that the present Bill was introduced.
There were three principal objections to the law as it at
present stood, which the present measure would remove.
In the fourteenth clause of the Bill there was a limita-
tion for .the first time introduced with regard to the
time of giving property, landed or personal, which should
be within a short time antecedent to the death of the tes-
tator or donor. It was a question of public and general
policy, and was quite open to discussion. He was of
opinion that some such limitation was necessary, consi-
dering the influtnce that might be used over dying per-
sons. Now he was bound to state, that he could only an-
ticipate one objection to the measure, as not being
entirely satisfactory to Roman Catholics, and that
objection, he was told, arose from a difficulty peculiar to
the form of the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical jurisdic-
tion, which was this--that the status of any person in
holy orders could not be decided by a person not himself
an ecclesiastic. He might, in passing, observe that it
was open to the discretion of the Crown to select a per-
son who, with regard to all the circumstancesof the case,
should be the most entitled to the confidence of the Ro-
man Catholic body, and who would, at the same time,
enjoy the confidence of the Crown. He must also ob-
serve that the last resort of the board, as it was now to
be constituted, was not trust-worthy if a dispute arose.
In the law as it stood at present, an appeal was allowed
to the Lord Chancellor, who from the circumstance of
holding the great seal must necessarily be a Protestant.
Under the board, as it was to be now constituted, there must
be one Roman Catholic dignitary. on it, and it was quite
clear that in the course of time either the Master of the
Rolls or the Chief Baron of the Exchequer would be a
Roman Catholic. This measure was framed in tte
spirit of peace ; it was framed with regard to the cir-
cumstances
of reland ; it was not possible to offer any
endowment to the Roman Catholic clergy, which would

not be accepted—(Hear,hear)—but it was most desirable
that a provision should be made to legalise the offerogs
voluntarily made for the purposes of the Roman Ca
tholic
religion. That it might mitigate the discord and asperity
which unhappily too much prevailed in Ireland he mos
earnestly wished. It was tendered in the spirit of peace
—in that spirit he hoped it would be received. Ile
hoped nothing had fallen from him to disturb that spirit'
He trusted that this measure would form the corner stone
of that temple of peace which his Right Hon. Friend ex*
pressed a hope might arise at no distant time, when
the
Queen of Et-gland should visit her Irish dominions, 0),
appear on her " throw- of the West," actuated by feel.
ings of kindness and benevolence towards all, her sub
jects, but in a particular manner towards a generous, $
gallant, and still a loyal people.—(Cheers.)
The question having been put,
Mr. M. O'FERRALL said that if this Bill was meant
in a spirit of peace and conciliation, he must be allowed Wt
observe that the terms in which it was conceived were 9°
calculated to produce that effect. It was a great misfortune°,
that in every measure introduced with regard to Irel,.sl.lt,
5
some clause was introduced which spoiled the spirit 011
however wise and good it might be. There were clause;
in this Bill that appeared to him most objectionable. 1,1
Ireland the greatest feeling existed against everythilt
that touched the Catholic Church. In England theca s;
was different ; but in Ireland they were imbued with t`;.s
deepest jealousy. The clause made the Commission em
removable at the pleasure of the Crown, which,/ n
thought extremely objectionable. The Right Pli"'
Baronet had stated that it would be the pleasure of t
Crown to appoint prelates of the Catholic Church, but
it might be the pleasure of the Crown not to aprine
prelates of the Catholic Church ; and if they Werd
to appoint Catholic laymen, the decisions .Ave
the board would not be received by the
bishops. He objected also to the constitution of the
board, which was to consist of eight Protestants °iv,
five Catholics. The Bill was by no means s
measure. In 1824 Lord Castlereagh had been ill Co";
respondence with the Catholic hierarchy on the subject.
The measure which was then proposed was much silPhe
rior to the present Bill, for it proposed to erect,thi
Catholic clergy into corporations, giving them the 140
of succession. He objected to the Bill because it Wu
the first attempt at legislative interference with the
Catholic religion, and he would recommend the Grover°.
tho
ment to pass those clauses only which related to .
charitable boards, and to leave those clauses which 111‘
terfered with the Catholic religion to another sessil:
for the Government had had ample time to consider a
effect of the measure, while the parties interested
bid
not had sufficient time afforded to consider what W°ll
be the effect of the Bill.—(Cheers.)
Lord ELIOT said the Government had reason to be;
lieve th© measure would be acceptable to the 11011 t.
Catholic clergy of Ireland. The Bill had been 04
ported by Lord Normanbv, whom the Hon. Gentles°
had often -said was dear to the CatholiPs of Irelatid/s,
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had alluded'to"
observations of a Right Rev. Prelate in the other }lO,
and stated that they were of a sectarian character. Pl/11,
friendly to the perpetuation of the penal statutes; butted
he (Lord Eliot) apprehended, they were only „ &
towards the support of the Established Church, ttrwir-sc°l
in disparagement of any religion whatever. Thei
was the Bill was permissive, and not ossiPui,g°l•s.
and calculated to prevent concealment or
appropriation of charitable funds. In France. "bf
trill, and Belgium, no bequest could be acceptedA
the Roman Catholic body wi.hout the cog
consent of the Government of these countries. 00.
France a curate could not be appointed without the °,
sent of the Government. After the assurance of his 11,'gcli
Hen. Friend he thought the feelings of jealousy Wi:,,,190
nizance..lo
were expressed regarding interference with 1144"
Catholics, entirely unfounded.
M- BELLEW brought

_ thought the measure was - 60'
forward in a conciliatory and kind spirit, but the beto
vcrnment had not consulted those who could glyet.eot,
the most useful and practical information on the snt.'iltioo
The Government was placed in an unfortunate P"s„lbeir
—they had no Catholic in the Government, and .tbe
words and actions were so much opposed, that
Roman Catholic body were naturally suspicious act is
measure they brought forward. The Bill contaiq to
his (Mr. Bellew's) opinion, . both insult and injustiftste
Ireland. Roman Catholics were always jealous of ''ce!
interference with their creed. Witness, for instg-0,11
the education question in France and in Belgium' t t
of the junta in Gibraltar. The Noble Lord said thbfloo
curate could not be appointed in France wit teil
the cognizance and consent of the Government, „id
they were very different cases indeed. France root
the Roman Catholic clergy, but England did the
If the Government expected co-operation fro° of
Catholic body, they must recognise the authoritleol
the Catholic clergy in Ireland—it was too Poe fie
to be dealt with on merely " tolerative" princiPles*t the
would not vote against the second reading, but 5001
same time would be very desirous for the postpone
of the Bill.
13111
The Earl of ARUNDEL said he thought ter
rior
evinced a desire to conciliate the Roman Catholics Ola
be
land on the part of her Majesty's Government, 1113 ier
should therefore support it. Ile did not think thetaoo
tions which would come before the Commissioned f the
in any degree affect or interfere with the faith c
people. tisfsc-
Sir R. PEEL said he had heard with great st4aitable
tion the speech of the Noble Lord----a speech er,e;estP
to him, and just towards the intentions of her Ns} in ti'
Government. Her Majesty's Government were oille
enced by no desire whatever in bringing this lne did
forward, excepting a wish to correct that which co,
understood had been complained of by the RonnireA iD
tholic population of Ireland, and to correct a der''' he
the present law in respect to Roman Catholic aid
quests. (Hear, hear.) He thought he syfieo/
give the Noble Lord an explanation with relsrble
to this measure, which would confirm the .1.40
Lord in the impression which he had exPresol
with that manliness and frankness so consistent in 00
on all occasions, whenever he was called on to glltaiio
opinion ; and so consistent also with the real facts Thisg
case. He (Sir R. Peel) must also say, without wlbsoort
to provoke any controversial spirit, that he hallo,bice,
with regret, which equalled the satisfaction with ore'
he had heard the speech of the Noble Lord, the teen
some of the speeches made on the other side 0 00
House. Surely they might consider the bearingateer
intention of this measure without provoking slip-bri/
debate on the appointment of Mr. O'Driscoll. S ibis
was not necessary to refer in a debate on a Bill °,l,
sort, to the appointment of a law officer in Irelall
reference to such matters, in his opinion, tl'ee,
show the spirit in which the Is„
comments were 111$"f the
i
was said that they had no knowledge whatever,"o,
feelings of the Roman Catholic population of loft
with respect to the existing law or its amen the
Why, he thought they might ascertain tbolifi
opinions and feelings of the Roman
body in reference to a publication
received the sanction of the Roman Catholic greA
ciation; That publication was written by, s lb",
lawyer—a man with a deservedly high reputation.s d
1 publication had a great circulation, and was supls,),,,
contain, in the fullest manner, the objections felt
Roman Catholic body in Ireland with respect to,
ments and laws which affected that class of her 318J,10
a ie
subjects. In that publication complaint was r°,10,110l
the state of the law with respect to Roman whit
charities. lie would just read the expressions jtoee
0 It
were made use of by Mi. Scully, a gentleman .0,
name was well known to Hon. Gentlemen 00100 es:
was stated in that publication, that "no Per-el,
i'
safely give or grant any land, money, or other poD,riest,
to or fur the permanent support of any Catholio,.„rode,,
house of worship, school, or other charitable wbe,
tion in Treland, subject, as such donations inns,„sti,
serious doubts and difficulties. That such °°:"ostil4l/
would probably be diverted to Protestant .I(ri
Lions, directly contrary to the donor's wis1::"
a prospect sufficiently disparaging to de,t,e` TV'
rational person from making such donations• phitril;
with respect to the institution of the Board of 00
ble Trusts Commissioners, Mr. Scully went
wse
observe that this Commission deserved notice, ll.,010;16
quence of its alertness in hunting down ," tb.ll
charities. It was now attempted to rernalY,ool7,
defecte, and a Bill was now brought in to put be rob
manner of doubt the law with respect to 01;014
bequests in Ireland, and to provide for the bti,be 5,1113
Roman Catholic chapels, and to provide for glow?,
endowments of priests, so that henceforth there Tho
not be a question as to the legality of the trusts' Otili;
was, therefore, a complete remedy for the we bOP#l
defects. They proposed to abrogate the existwillial
for the purpose of substituting a new one.
proposed to place three legal persons upon teli", Lots"
mission, the first of whom was to have been ba Ii°0(1
Chancellor. It was, however, objected that 0„.
Chancellor must, necessarily be a Protestan,,
yielding to that objection. Her Majesty jiorer
verment omitted the name of the Dube'Chancellor. They, however, retained the, rise
1
of the Rolls and the Chief Baron of the Court °l
ore roc
quer, to both of which offices Roman Catholics in yl
gible. There was nothing sectarian, therefore be
appointment of that part of the board. In, thee of
Bill they had not placed the name of a 011-Feenlbeidt
Perogative Court, but a Roman Catholic I‘'-utist-e.
Parliament had submitted that this was a great in 0115,
and the Judge of the Prerogative Court wrni,s'4, Coale/
quence, placed amongst the members of tTheere"lo%
sion. Having yielded to that suggestion theY Floc ot
.ti for 10e
taunted on the second reading of this BD itit'
upon the new Commission a man whose arl of°"forf
was made by the Primate of Ireland. But th,lehoil, ote
went had not been made by the Primate of 11:d rel,llitbe
on the last occasion of its being vacant, the l•Clocis 0%0,
of Ireland placed the appointment in the i 0
Government. He could not help alluding to
htlie oirlto
stance, as he thought it was indicative td. 111°_,iorl
which the Government were now oppose e porzoo
offices, the occupants of which were to ennill°so, WOO'
of this Board, were, a few years IC-600 ,of
Catholics, viz., Baron Rolfe and Sir Michael and on be
There were to be ten ether Commissioners, s Ides' tie
that number five were to be Roman Catholics, .0
teni ie
would ask whether it was not dishear tr to
met in the spirit which had been eviwed
then sus 11
In the course of this debate reference, had bed We of
a measure which had been introduced hY,',,l-leelate:reft
ley, respecting which the Roman Catho"colid A pt,
Ireland were consulted. He held in his awed to
of that measure. It was, first of all slum
Murray.
Mr. M. O'PERRALL—OnIy the out". e_:t if cTo
Sir R. PEEL said it was quite sufficulrroitted !tool:
general outline of the measure had been s 0013_701es
Murray, in order to enable him to institute los e0:0000.
between that and the present Bill. That 17!1_llirisli J2es for,
"An Act for providing places of worship l°l d glebe
Catholic subjects in Ireland, and houses ;hue espo3sit
e 0
the parish priests." Parish priests aas
_t Bill, 1;001
used throughout the Bill. -In the presen,,e e%p
was brouht into the House of Lords, wits l'osea,
" parish minister" was used. An objectiontt sto t$
to this, on the ground that " minister yielded
by Presbyterians only. The Governrao"