The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-09 00:00:00

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fbr goods. ~ The extent of the present Lime-itieer-station was one
acre and three quaoers. They proposed to add half as much more.
The whole area woud be then 12,000 yards, th cost 30,0001.
To this plan he was not aware of any opno• tion To the
station at Wapping, which was at presen fuur acres
in extent, they proposed to add twenty thou nd yards,
and there would be a communication with it to the Queen's and
King's Docks. The cost would be 30,0001. There was no oppo.
sition but that of a private individual, a Mr. Lloyd. He now tame
to the North, or Victoria which began at Edge-hill;and comedown
close to the North Docks. The tunnel would proceed until it
reached the Leeds and Liverpool canal, and from thence to the
station would be open ground. There would be a communication
bet Ween the Victoria tunnel and the Wapping station, and the
communication would embrace the whole line of quays, and run for
a length of two miles and a half, forming one of the most important
and largest schemes which the mind of man could suggest. The
cost of this tunnel and the station would be 256,0001., a large sum;
but it should be recollected that the capital of the Company which
proposed it was 250,000/, and that it had never yet failed
in any plan it had undertaken. A station would be
made at the end of the tunnel which would be on a corn.
rnensurate scale ; thence they proposed to take five acres of land,
and to this there would be no opposition. The improvements at
Liverpool had received the sanction of the Board of Trade, and
every other plan he advocated had received the sanction of that
Board, with the exception of the St. Helen's and Rufford line.
The Liverpool and Ranisforth, with the other improvements at
Liverpool, would cost 10,0001., chiefly at the Edgehill station. The
Learned Counsel then went on to disprove that statement in the
report of the Board of Trade, which set forth that the St. Helen's
and Rufford line only skirted a coal-field and that the branch was
not necessary, and concluded by saying that he would not doubt but
the Committee having heard the evidence he would tender would de.
tide upon adopting the lines of communication he proposed between
those great northern districts and Liverpool, which had now be-
come the emporium of the trading world.
Mr. Hatherton appeared as counsel on behalf of Sir G. Hesketh
and other larded proprietors. _ _

Mr. E. Liddell, engineer and surveyor, confirmed in every
respect the statement made by Mr. Lowndes as to the expense of
forming the different branches, and added that the steepest gra-
dient on the St. Helen's and Rufford Railway was 1 in 114, and
the least radius of a curve 25 chains, and these only for
short distances. The steepest gradient on the Rainsforth and
Liverpool line was 1 in 165, and the smallest radius of a curve
19i chains. The total cost of constructing both lines would be
350,0001., or thereabouts.
This witness was cross-examined at considerable length by Mr.
Wiums and by Mr. CALTEBT, as to the expenses of constructing
the various branches and the works in Liverpool. There was no
coach on the line between Liverpool and Rainsforth.
In his cross-examination by Mr. HLTHERTON, the witness ad-
mitted that the line would pass within a short distance of the man-
sion of Mr. Leland, three furlongs.

Dlr. Thomas Lee examined the land along the St. Helen's and
Rufford line. Calculated the value of the land, buildings, and
severance at about 21.,000/. The land, buildings, and severance
between Liverpool and Rainsforth was 57,'214/.
Mr ••ineair, treasurer to the St. Helen's and Rufford Railway,
thought the formation of that railway would be a great accommo-
dation.

Mr. Edward Woods, resident engineer of the Liverpool and
Manchester Railway, gave evidence as to the traffic, &c.
Some formal evidence was then put in, and the Committee ad.
jounced at four o'clock to Monday next.

GROUP L.
HORSHAM BRANCH RAILWAY.
The Committee met this morning at half-past twelve o'clock,
Mr. E. B. Denison in the chair, and went through the remaining

clauses of this Bill, and it was ordered to be reported to the House.

PORTSMOUTH ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAY.

Alter disposing of the Horsham Railway Bill, the Committeeon
Group L resumed their inquiry on the direct railway to Ports.

mouth, when

Mr. AUSTIN called Mr. Simmons, who had been extensively
engaged in getting information for railway traffic tables, and stated

that he had made the traffic table for the South-Eastern Company.
He had been engaged 14 days last autumn, .vith 30 persons under

him. The time was a most unfavourable one, the weather
being bad, and the season the worst in the year for traffic. By
o'sservation he had found that there was a revenue of 179,3841.
from passengers and parcels on the line-1)0,0001. for passengers,

and about 70,000/. for parcels, allowing lid. a mile for the fare of
each passenger, and Is. for each long parcel, and 3d. and 6d. for
the short ones. This calculation was, he conceived, a very mode-
rate one. By the London and Gosl•ort line there were 60,000 pas-
sengers annually. On the South-Western line, they were carried at
the rate or 2d per mile each ; but by the atmospheric line the charge
world be nly I:,d. per mile. In consequence of this reduction lie
expected an increase of 50 per cent., amounting to about 28,000!.
a year. He expected also an increase of 10,000/. a year from
additional passengers to the Isle of Wight. The tsnnage of
goods now on the railway was about 6.500 annually, while he as.
sumed only 2,800. For small parcels by the South-Western
Railway he put down 3,000/. a year. Of:goods •taken by water
conveyance between London and Portsmouth, Newport,
Chichester, and Hemsworth he had taken at only
one-third, which would yield a revenue of 12,789!. Bs. 10d.

He had assumed 1 for cattle, and id. for sheep and lambs,

which would give upwards of 8,0001. On inquiry for the vessels
which went from Portsmouth direct, he had allowed I It?. for in.
dividuals, and Id. only for troops, and this gave him 7,5001. lOs.
Bd. The general result of the pleasure traffic to Epsom and Good-
wood races and on other occasions, gave about 8,2901. The fish
for the whole year gave 14,000/., of which he took only 10,0001.,
making altogether the total given above. This, deducting 35
per cent. for working and expenses, would give a return of 8 p. r
cent. on the capital of 450,0001. The gross amount of traffic to
Southampton was 337,c001.—deducting from this 44,7001. for pas.
s.'nger traffic to Gosport, 9,3001. for goods, there remained a net

amount of 290,000/. proved traffic on the Southampton line, being
I 10,0001. more than was assumed for the whole of the traffic to
Portsmouth.

To the cross-examination of Mr. COCKBURN, the witness stated
that these tables had only lately been made, but in the tables sent
into the Boar°, of Trade he had made the estimate for the whole
returns, 388,000/. 10s. lid., and, deducting from this
155,21'2/. 4s. 4d , being 40 per cent. for working ex-
penses, there was a balance of 232,8181. for net revenue.
He then had calculated the passengers at ltd. and lid. per
head per mile, and he had taken a greater number of miles and
mote coaches. Among the latter was the Brighton, the Worthing,
and the Horsham coaches. In addition to this they had taken all
the Guilford trade, which was considerable. His charge also now

was only Id per mile for the passengers. Another reduction had
been made on the parcels, from 2s. to ls. each. He had made this
reduction because he believed that the South-Western Company
had reduced their charge, but he had not made any detailed in.
quiry or gone to the offices of the Company to ask for a table of
charges
To the cross-examination of Mr. GURNEY—In his present
tables lie estimated the whole of the tonnage at 257,621 tuns

in the year, hut in the tables sent into the Board of Trade
he had estimated the weight at 521,476 tons. The
traffic between Godalming as:d London was stated at 96,460

tons, but of this he took only one.third, carried at 2d. per
ton per mile. He had estimated that there were 11 passengers per
coach per journey, though he believed that 9 was the usual esti-
_

mate. But at.Corshant the average which had been taken was 9
at Sheetgate, near Petersfield, it was 61 ; at Haslemere it was
not quite 11 ; at Godalming it was about 5 ; at Dorking it was a
little more than 6 ; at Guilford it was about 5 ; and at Leather-
head the average was about 6 passengers per journey. The total
of these results then gave an average of 6, though he had stated
them at 11. His inquiries had been made of the coachmen
and coach proprietors on the road, who had given him
the number of London passengers by Portsmouth and
Chichester coaches. The coach from Winchester and
Petersfield would cross the line of railway at right angles,
and he had taken his traffic at the Sheetbridge.gate to as.
certain what passengers he would get for the railway. With re-
spect to the goods traffic, he had based his assumptions on the sup-
position that the mills and factories on the line would burn coal
instead of wood and tuff, as they would then get coals much more
cheaply. The same observation applied to lime, fish, and French
eggs, and he had not includesi in his present estimate the traffic
which he expected to draw from the South-Western line. He had
got his data of the water conveyance from Nell Quay, at Chic Les.
ter, and at the quay for the Portsmouth traffic.
On his re-examination by Mr. AUSTIN, Mr. Simmons stated that
the whole of the goods traffic on the South. Western line was
11,1731, and of this he took 3,0001. for the proper Portsmouth
traffic, leaving 8,1731. for the proper Southampton traffic, which
he considered sufficiently fair. In the returns sent in to the
Board of Trade, he had included a branch to Reigate, and another
to Guilford, which had been originally contemplated, but were now
abandoned, and the traffic of which was not included in the sub.
sequent tables now presented to the Committee. The Guilford
passengers, he calculated, would return 52.7311., and 43,2381.
for goods, the whole amount of the goods traffic being
calculated at something over 124,0001. He had been
led to suppose that the whole of the Guildford traffic would be
drawn to the atmospheric live, in consequence of the feeling ex-
pressed by the principal of the Guildford traders in fa.
your of the Lontion.oridge terminus, and their indisposition to
use the South. Western line. The loss of the Reigate branch also
had abstracted upwards of 11,0001. from his estimate. His
original estimate of the South-Western traffic was above 84,0001.,
which had been reduced to 32,11001., making a reduction of
52,0001. The whole of the re,uctions would therefore amount
to about 130,0001. When there was an apparent reduction on
the passengers to 50,0110/., it arose from the reduced mileage, and
passengers from their several stations, the difference being between
4,247,280 miles, and upwards of 9,000,000. This accounted for
upwards of 39,0001., and a mistake had been made in the
number of miles which they would have to travel. His reduced
estimates had been made from the evidence given
by the witnesses for the Guildford and Portsmouth Railway. He
had also deducted the Worthing coach and all the coaches to
Horsham. All these reductions would account for the
discrepancy between the two tables. He attempted to
t his tables back from the Board of Trade, but
had been unsuccessful, and was obliged to suffer them
to remain. He had, therefore, communicated the facts to his em-
ployers, and stated that the reduction of the two branches would
reduce the traffic nearly one-half. He had made no other altera-
tions but those which were suggested by the evidence of the South
Western Company.
To the inquiry of the CsseIRMAN, the witness stated that both
his sets of tables were formed on precisely the same principle.
To Mr. AUSTIN, the witness replied that he had got his average
of eleven passengers from Mr. Crofts, and from sonic persons at
rommouth.
To the inquiry of Lord CLive, Mr. Simmons replied that when
he had given his estimate of the passengers from Horsham, he was
not aware that the Brighton Company had projected a branch to
that place. He discovered the discrepancies in February, after he
had learned that the Guildford branch had been abandoned.
Mr. Waghorn, ornamental tile and vase maker at Ewell, stated
that he possessed a very fine vein of fire clay at Nonsuch Park.
He consumed about 3,000 tons of coals, and disposed of from 500
to 1,000 tons of clay to all parts of the world. He supplied Ports-
mouth dockyard with fire bricks, and sent a great quantity to Hol.
land, France, Germany, and even to Constantinople, and if this
railway were opened he would save a great deal by avoiding the
circuitous route of the Thames. He had also a trade towards
Dorking and Leatherhead, which he very much desired to extend,
and for this the railway gave him an opportunity.
Mr. Simmon, an owner of real property at Leatherhead, stated,
that the value and rents of property had been of late much reduced.
They had no water conveyance, were badly off for land carriage,
the nearest station being that at Kingston. He has a large corn
mill on his hands, and he did not see that any means of conveyance
, would be obtained unless this railway was obtained.
Mr. Moor, a woolstapler at Epsom—Stated that he principal part
of his business lay down the left of the proposed line as
far as Chichester, and the South. Western line was perfectly useless;
and the dealers in his neighbourhood would be ruined unless they
had the means of conveyance which would enable them to com-
pete with the dealers in the west. He sent from 1,200 to 1,500
packs mm
Frtoom Lcoin,idoohno,,termost ofpaiwdhicihs. hsed. goat
ofrwot,
from Petworth Is. 31. On an average the latter was
the use of thein r
ha
bark,wo railway. The
paper,
rt.hl
the usual price, and he would
from
opassnomdosoo certainlyti ..
wards
1 aurddi timber,s,
no road on which there were so many waggons, the country being
yfainircne;shed with a return of the
altogethere
le c a
a la destitute
mN r
requested
owe water ct n
by
oe
communication me
heaviestaun nd i cr
flour.
ott!'u:
tonnage
at more
hg;rotgr than
Ew half by
tolls at Leatherhead, Epsom, and Dorking,which
promised to fur.
Mr. RAWLINSON, on the part of the promoters,
Dish on Monday.
The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock on that day,