The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-04 00:00:00

TUE SUN, LONDON, PRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 4 1845.

the presentPariianent,beVard the [lon. Member for
East Kent express hie delight at the Right Hon. Baronet
taking office, because the Right Hon. Baronet was op-
posed to the maietenance of Romanisin in Ireland. The
lion. Gentleman's opinion must be somewhat altered
now. He was afraid they would have to call in some of
the Custom-house authorities, to discriminate between
the vices of the Right Hon. Baronet, and those of the
Noble Lord who sat on the Opposition side of the House.
He ful:y sympathised with the Right Hon. Baronet. and
hoped he would not be deterred from his present princi-
ples by a" No Popery" cry. The time was gone by, when
the House was to be deterred from doing its duty by a
bigoted agitation.—(Cheers.)
Mr. GREGORY confessed that he had heard some
singular arguments in favour of this measure. In the
first place the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought it
forward had told them that it would tend to encourage
Protestantism in Ireland. Why, if this were so, they
had only to make an additional grant to the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland to encourage Romanism.
While the Right Hon. Gentleman was speaking, he
stated that it was in accordance with the wishes of the
Roman Catholic prelates that he introduced this mea-
sure. He (Mr. Gregory) however heard it perpetually
stated that this measure was decidedly against the
wishes of the Roman Catholic clergy, but that they were
forced to it by the laity. He was not of opinion that the
clergy had lost their influence so far over the laity. For
a long time he could not understand how this measure
was to be brought forward. When the subject was on a
former occasion introduced by his Friend the Noble
Member for North Lancashire, it was objected to his
measure by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that
he was unwilling to adopt any course that would connect
the State with any Dissenting Establishment. It was
said that this was a question whether the Roman Catho-
lic clergy should be educated or not. He never would
be an advocate for ignorance, but he would object to the
course of education pursued at the College of Maynooth.
He would ask, had there emanated from that institution
within the last twenty years one single constellation in
the literary world? He would contend against the
course of education. proceeded with there, and also
would vote against the grant. Had the Right Hon.
Baronet come to the House and said, Do away with
the College of Maynooth, and institute colleges through-
out Ireland, and let there be no exclusive religious edu-
cation, then he (Mr. Gregory) would support those
colleges. Maynooth had brought up the priest-
hood in a manner that had rendered them
a repulsive body. It did not raise them to a
position that would do justice to their ardour and
zeal. It made them unwilling to enter into society. He
hoped he had not said anything that was in any way
calculated to offend the feelings of those who were op-
posed in religious opinion to' himself, if he had, he hoped
that they would not attribute it to intention on his part. If
an exclusive religious education was adopted, and if this
establishment was disconnected with the State, they
.would find the, Roman Catholic. priests loyal end or-
derly, not the leaders in agitation, but exercising that
influence, which should be used not to sever, but to rivet
those chains with which nature had bound down their
consciences.
Lord F. EGERTON said that he was deeply sensible
of the fact, that his vote this night would he at variance
with the views and opinions of those who supported him
—of those, the representing of whom he alwal s
ge.residered the greatest honour he could obtain.
It was, therefore, with regret that he could, with
reference to any subject, express a difference of
opinion from his supporters. lie on that account felt
it incumbent upon him not to keep silent altogether,
though he was not anxious to interfere with the House
on a subject that was nearly exhausted. He would not
enter into the state of the establishment of Maynooth,
but it was clear, that whatever contracts were made
consequent on the arrangements of 1795, it was evident,
he would say, that no such contracts would bind them
at the present day. He was of opinion, that the other
course which was suggested by his Rightl Hon. Friend
who had just sat down—that cf abolishing the grant
altogether—would be, under the circumstances, an un-
reasonable one ; he thought that such a measure would
be dangerous to the State ; it would be considered as
an insult and an injury—it would be perilous to the
Established Church, and an obstacle and a bar to any
increase of Protestantism in Ireland. It had been ex-
plained, that the expen-e at the College of Maynooth
was given per head, and it appi aced to be three
pounds less than was allowed to a private soldier.—
(Hear, hear.) A private soldier got from the State 251.
and a student at Maynooth was allowed 231., which was
21. less. He would take the occasion to say, and he was
sure that the House would agree with him in stating that
the lion. Member who had just sat down had not used
any language which could be hurtful to anybody, and
that what he had said reflected great credit on him. He
(Lord F. Egerton) had, on a former occasion, which
was referred to by his Hon. Friend, the honour of
moving for a larger grant to Maynooth, and he wished
to say that, with referenee to his constituents, he had
nothing to reproach himself with, as regarded consis-
teney. He would also say that, with reference to his
religious feeling, which could hinder him from sup-
porting the course now suggested, he did not
think that discussions on religious faith were
fit for the atmosphere of that House. He
hoped, however, that his religion would be only known
by his practices. From what knowledge he had of Ire-
land, and the views which he entertained towards that
country, he did not see anything that could deter him
from exercising that liberality which was to-night pro-
posed. He should have some difficulty_in coming to the
conclusion of granting 30,0001. to the Maynooth College,
if his religious feelings were to be alone considered, but
he did not see how they could interfere. He recollected
that on his introduction of a measure of a like nature
some time ago, it was received with great consideration
by the House, and was not met by any uncontrollable
principles; even in the state of opinion in that day it
was not considered an inexpedient measure. He con •
fessed that he thought the measure a reasonable one,
and itwould not be met by any objection from him. He
could not alter his opinion as to the expediency of the
measure which he on a former occasion proposed.
Mr. WARD said that he merely rose to state, in as
few words as possible, the reasons why he should press
the vote which he should make to-night. He should,
also, express the heartfelt gratification with which ho
had heard the principles laid down by the Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government. It should be pleasing
to any man to see those principles stated to the House in
such an irresietitde manner. Whatever the Hon. Member
for Oxford might any, though he sand there as the repre-
sentative of a Protestant constituency, he could not believe
it could be the real and unaffected feeling of this country,
when the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet came to be
calmly and deliberately discussed. The Noble Member
for Dublin, considering the party which he represented,
made a speech which did credit to his taste, but he said
he felt deep disappointment at the result of the experi-
ment tried in 1795. What better ground could he seek
for that disappointment than the fact that he had
refused to educate the Roman Catholic clergy in
a proper manner ? lie assigned salaries to the students-
of the College of Maynooth, which he would not
assign to hie butler or his cook. When such was the
state of things, what else could result than disappoint.
mint? If they treated them as good subjects, and as
fellow Christians, they would find different results. The
lion. Gentleman asked also why they should make a
grant to the Catholic clergy, when they did not
allow such a thing to any other dissenting sect.
Why should they not give it to them when they confis-
cated their property for their own purposes ?—(Hear.)
The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) then proceeded to
observe that he never saw a nobler determination than
that which was displayed by the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of her Majesty's Government, to make
amends for his former conduct in refusing to
increase the grant to that institution—(Hear, hear)—
and he could not see what inconsistency there was in
it. The principles laid down for the government of
those who made this grant at the time of the union were
the same as they were now; and when Mr. Pitt and Lord
Howick, and many other Hon. Members, had agreed at
one time upon this subject, they were overruled by the
act of a small but compact party in their tbirst for that
power which was the principal element by which they
were banded together in that Houle.---(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet has made a liberal proposition in
his proposed increase of this grant, and he (Mr. Ward)
would not oppose it; but it would be his duty, in order
to follow a consistent course, to contend that thin sene
should not be paid out of the general taxation a the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he coulea not say
that this measure had his cordial support., tor he thought
it was a mistake to supply the grant P,rom the fund from
which it was proposed to take it. He did think that the
Government ought to pause before they imposed a tax
upon the Dissenters of this country or of Scotland for
the support of a faith to ee.niete they did not belong, and
which they did not believes in ; and this part of the sub
ject he would take care to introduce to the notice of the
House again at thy, proper time when the Bill should be
introduced. Br't in the mean time he would giye the
principle an the proposition his trinst cordial support,
for he beloved it would have the effect of creating much
good feeling amongst the Catholics of Ireland.
LAW said he would have no hesitation in stating
that it was his intention to oppose this proposition ; but
he would like tO state his reasons for doing so. And at
the same time that he did express his objection
to such a measure, ho should also express the obli-
gation he felt tinder to the Right Honourable Ba-
ronet for the extreme candour of the course lie had
pursued in giving a full and timely announcement of his
intention to propose this measure ; and whatever objec-
tion he (Mr. Law) might have to the principle of the
measure, neither he nor any one else opposed to the
measure could say they had been taken, by surprise.
There was alsO another Act of the Government, between
the last and the present session, which afforded a clear

indication of the intention of the Government not only in
respect to this, but to other measures of a like nature,
but of more extended and of greater importance. Ile
alluded to the Commission in reference to the Roman
Catholic Bequest Bill, in which he found the names of
the Roman Catholic prelates, not only placed in juxta-
position with eminent divines of the Protestant Church,
but a precedence allowed to the former over
the latter, which gave to them, as it were,
by anticipation, a position suporicr in rank and degree
to Peers of the realm.—;Hear, hear.) But he did not
complain of this : on the contrary, h© did think that the
Right Hon. Baronet was entitled to claim credit fur the
candour and honesty of the course he had stated his
intention to pursue in reference to the Roman Catholic
Church, and by which a certain amount of derogation
to the Established Church was certain to follow.—
(Hear, hear.) He felt it would be out of place for him
to quarrel with any increased grant proposed to be given
for the education of Roman Catholic priests in future ;
but he could not but regard this proposition, whatever the
intentions of the Government might be, as a precursor
of other measures for she ultimate endowment of
the Roman Catholic Church, and to place it in
_te(iptoesairt,ionhemairt.l)l thelz,Eslit,alsdisibieecclatCisleiuricille
sion and liberality between a mere act of that nature, and
icanouclodiroedrliadsnicndoVaer no resting-place for this proposed exts n-
such a result as he had sta'ed be feated would follow,
gthrteiat
threegbraedt,, atfotesrtatme uhcehhaadn xcioemty be
e,
to the
compelled,
lh
determination,vit
as a part of his bounden duty,not only to the Established
Church, but to the sincerity and consistency of his own
opinions, to offer his decided opposition to this proposed
grant.—(Hear) For a considerable time his judgment
was in the balance, while he saw that the Right Hon.-
Baronet" proposed liberality to Maynooth was mixed up
with a large scheme for a comprehensive system of aca-
demical education in Ireland ; but all doubt
and uncertainty was removed from his mind
when he heard the announcement that the
increased grant to Maynooth was to be a separate and
distinct proposition. He (Mr. Law) hoped it would not
be supposed that he meant to impute any but the purest
and most exalted motives to the Government in adopting
this course ; neither did he feel that, though he differed
from the Government upon this question, he should feel
called upon to withdraw his general confidence from that
Government which, for the last ten years, he had reposed
in them—(Hear, hear)—and, in return, he claimed only
the same charitable construction for his motives that he
conceded to others ; and that, therefore, the sincerity of
his views ought not to be questioned when he said ho felt
confidence in this, the best Government that this
country ever possessed since the passing of the Reform
Act.—(Ministerial cheers.) He did very much regret
that the Right Honourable Baronet had not deemed
it expedient to develop his scheme for academical edu-
cation in Ireland. If he had done so, and made it a
universal increase of general education for all creeds
and classes of the community, instead of making May-
nooth College an exclusive seminary for the education
of Roman Catholic priests, he would have deprived this
measure of much of the mischief which he (Mr. Law)
believed would attend it in its present shape. With re-
gard to the question of academical education, he begged
of the Right Hon. Baronet, and the House, to recollect
that there was at present Trinity College, at Dublin, in
which Roman Catholics were freely admitted, and had
open to them, if they chose to take advantage of it,
all the honours of that University. But in the
College of Maynooth there was now presented one of
the grossest anomalies ever exhibited in any establish-
ment instituted for such purposes. It was true that
this was a boon which had been granted by the Govern-
ment of this country for the institution of Maynooth
College, and it was established for the purpose of afford-
ing education to Roman Catholic priests, and thereby
prevent them from resorting to foreign countries for
such, and imbibing with it revolutionary principles, or
sentiments inimical to the Government of their own
country.— (Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Mi-
nisterial benches.) He would not attempt to follow the
arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford,
but he was willing to admit the truth of the assertion,
that in the year 1795, and at different periods since than,
several Acts were passed for the endowment and main-
tenance of this establishment, but he begged to remind
the House that these Acts invariably limited the period
over which this grant was to extend to twenty years,
which had long since expired, though of course subse-
quent enactments had amplified the time. However, if
he could persuade himself that this was an honourable
engagement which the Government ought to feel bound
to fulfil, he would be the last to oppose it, but he did not
feel that the Government were at all called upon either
to extend the grant to Maynooth or to continue it. But
there was a great difference between extending their
grant and continuing it at a fixed sum. This, he was
aware, would be met by the assertion that the fixed sum
was not sufficient. He could not deny the fair spirit in
which this proposition had been made; and he could
not doubt the purity of the intention of those who had
proposed it. If it was the determination of the House
that the grant to Maynooth should continue, then he
thought it was desirable that the annual discussion on
this question should be discontinued. Feelirg satisfied,
however, that this permanent grant would involve the
destruction of the fundamental article of the Union, and
at no distant period that it would destroy that portion
of the united Irish and English Church in 'relat', he
should feel it his duty, as they were not to be permitted
to make the annual grant without being told that they
conceded the principle of a permanent obligation,
he for one should oppose the measure, the effect of
which was—first to increase the grant, to render it per-
petual and national by Act of Parliament, and through
that grant and through that admission of principle, ulti-
mately to destroy the united English and Irish
Church.—(Hear, hear.)
• Mr. BELLEW thought that the majority of the ob-
servations of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down
were quite irrelevant to the subject under discussion.
They had heard from the Hon. Member for Oxford, who
might be considered the Coryphams of the party most
opposed to this grant, and from the Hon. Member for
Kent, much about contributing to a system
of idolatry by giving the grant to Maynooth.
He did not think that many would be found to carry out
to their full extent the principles of those who opposed
the present measure, and neither the force of their argu-
ments nor the charity of their sentiments Made up for
their numbers. What did he see lately in a Dublin
paper? He would read an extract to the House—" The
policy of Sir Robert Peel is to declare war against Jesus
Christ. That the devil entered into his policy was as
manifest as if the inspired historians recorded the Net."
—(Laughter.) There was a petition presented that night
from Trinity College, which he thought might be better
employed. After stating in that petition that they heard
with
.regret of the measures about to be adopted by the
Government, they said that it was unwise to endow the
Catholic religion, which was opposed to revealed thitii.
Let them act on that principle, and persecution would
be the result.—(Hear, hear.) Toleration would be but
a matter of degree. The Inquisition, the Dragonades of
Louis XIV., and the penal statutes of William and
Anne would be justified.—(Hear, hear.) Why, lately,
when the Dissenters' Chapel Bill was before Paellament,
a prelate of the Protestant Church opposed it, because
Unitarianism was opposed to the land. And was there
so much uniformity in that House to justify any of thetti
in saying what was and what was rot right in religions
matters ? There were members of the Established
Church who were divided between Calvinism and Catho-
licity. There were me:ill:Mrs of the Calvinistic Church,
who were divided between Calvinism and Armenianism.
There was the Church of Scotland, divide d not only iti
discipline but in doctrine, he believed% And why should
it not be so? It was the great boast of the Proteittipt
churches that the Bible, and the Bible alone, Was their felt.
gion. But it was hard that the gewittlen who opposed this
measure, -who claimed the principle of a free interpreta-
tion, should also claim the advantage of authority by
establishing what was right and wronsee anti whet +.4.1*5.-
trines were alone worthy of censiderailoil o the State..
The-time had gene by *Lett such a principle could be
acted upon. They got Canada in 1774, and, there the
Catholic religion was endowed. Wtseii by VfieW ni•l'liS
they had extended their eolOnite, Spanish Trinidad and
Dutch Denierars. Were equally welcome, and the mainte-
nance of the Catholic religion was extended to the colo-
nies. There was not one among the forty-one eoloeies
which they possessed, in which the pr.o,-Ail.,, 1,01,1,,,,
was not supported by this gettititije In fgewfoundland
the Catholics sliereA in the endowment of the State, in
a very small and inadequate degree, indeed, but still it
was endowed. Then, at home, they supported the
chaplain of the Irish military regiment% the Aapilin
of the gaols were supported anti thnse Who offfiated ill
workhouses, and that Was a strAnger Ca-ss; 111ecAk..c..% the
payment was in prepolstien to thti *ant's done, and the
Catholic chaplain hitvikig, or course, more to do, were
paid more thikie the Protestant chaplains. If then
things were done when bigotry was strong and ,roblist,
hew absurd to object to it at the prtstnt Ilipb. Tll4 htiti
about 200 or 300 olerivrti C.414..n6tVd Cal their mili-
tary regiments inittlOki- y atia in their colonies, and in
their workleoliseS, who had received money for the dis-
charge of their duties. Why, then, should they object tig
the payment of 30,0001, for their educatien in histit‘dclthr
The original endowment of that Colieffi wit tile re-
sult of a cold policy. At tbii thin the College was
endowed there Wasi O. great dread of what were
called Vrnikeli principles, and being afraid that if those
who were intended for the Roman Mit* Chuith
would be inoculated with those principles it thby Wee
educated abroad, the Cellete Or Irt4nstlit, i WO eii•
dowed, but hi the nidst tiii4ratiN spirit, as the wretched
grant which ikf-a4 ettth proved.—(Hear, hear.) The
net/sleet Of persons at present maintained at May-
tinv.sst,h was 250, and there were about 200 educated else-
where in Ireland and abroad. Now, it wteaslent tliel
in a question like the present the f.4..title should be every-
thing or nothing.. Taro must be a great national ob-
ject its vise*, or this subject would not be considered at
nil. He would not enter into theological details, because
tf he considered that House was a most improper late ttl
enter into a discussion of theology! bttt lie cop ' d irter
the Right Hon. Gentleman who spokbAast; apd t ejtoth
othersllitaught e m bewralitofoutheaoyutigihtilthht:anttiosVoeittsitY dr Ukfetil% Atte. all
heeklSeiviligdeenkccecegdili.negnly beforebad wasthe
Commission of 1825 by the Professor of Moral and Doig.
made Theology. If those Hon. Gentlemen read hie
evidence, they would find that there was nothing taught
at Maynooth which was not taught throughout the
lat
ioey etry e erroneous
priests
H oorfunilerskrseetpehl :otrinhomsudeod;
ornsenawsasf opinionit impression whole Catholic world ; that the dogmas of Maynooth
were the dogmas of the Sorbonne, and were the same
which were taught to the 120,000,000 of human beings
who composed the Catholic world. There seemed to be
scraping
csrogproefaooii
pninni
ietitnthfe.
bgana
yvdt o.
Teuudsphr ofaHafgote,
asr
ucwttgicihloohreeueu
sagacious
scantya,m,rr
Raman
manel
al
aaOnd,
rnnatea,
• Esa di
said
Catholicu n
thatfl thosepriesthood,
education in Ireland as the penal -laws permitted them
to obtain, they went to the continent, and, after acquiring
a little theology, they 'came -back,- without any solid
knowledge, and ill-disposed towards this country. The
Samß eminent person, in reference to an exclusive

establishment for the clergy, to which objections had
been urged that night, said that, in providing education
fur any body of men, they ought seriously to consider
the particular functions they weleintended to discharge;
that the authorities of the Roman Catholic religion, and
the celibacy required of its priesthood, rendered it.
undesirable that they should be educated in common
with others intended for worldly occupations.
He (Mr. Bellew) did not think it would be right of him
to sit down without expressing his- gratitude to the Right
Hen. Baronet for the manner in which he hal brought it
forward, and next to the measure itself, for the language
he used.—(Cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman
brought it forward in a liberal and confiding spirit, and
he believed and trusted it would be received in Ireland
in :a similar spirit. The Right Honourable Baronet
had !,not used a single expression to detract
from the grace and favour of . the measure.
lie hoped that as the Right lion. Baronet bad been the
means of carrying Catholic Emancipation, it was yet re-
served for him to link together the two countries in the
bond of mutual friendship. He -saw many occurrences
taking place which led him to hope that though unfortu-
nately there, was at present in Ireland considerable agi-
tation, still there was every day a better feeling spring-
ing up there by which the education board, the pro-
mised measure of academical education, and this Bill
showed the Right lion. Baronet was determined to
.ciliate the the Irish Catholics, and no party feelings would
prevert him from expressing his gratitude to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, and he would further say, and he
wished he only gave utterance to the feelings of the
Roman Catholic people of Ireland, when he said that
such measures had their right good wishes.—(Cheers)
Lord SANDON hoped the House would excuse him
for saying a few words in consequence of the position be
was placed in. He looked at this question as one of
compact, and, as he had already stated, it should have
his hearty support.—(Hear, hear.) That compact should
be carried out in that large and liberal sense by which
intercourse between the two countries should be guided. 1,
He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis) that
there was nothing in the Act of Union which affected this
grant one way or the other, but in the discussions which
took place on the question in 1808,
shortly after the
union, in which the men who carried the union were en-
gaged, the propriety of this grant was distinctly recog-
nised. Then there was the lapse of time, fifty years of
unbroken continuance of this grant. If they had en-
dowed a college in Canada fifty years ago, would they
withdraw that allowance now? They would not. Then
why treat Ireland differently ? Next they should re-
member the circumstances under which the grant was
made. England was then involved in a continental war,
and nearly all the nations of Europe were leagued against
her ; and in order to obtain the' hearty co-operation of
the Irish people, they promised to endow Maynooth.—
(Hear, hear.) Ought they now, after fifty years, to
violate that engagement. Succeeding Governments and
Parliaments—Whig and Tory—had all agreed to this
allowance, and why should a less liberal feeling now
prevail ?—(llear, hear.) With respect to his own feel-
ings, he owned he was influenced by other motives than
those of a compact. He had always voted in favour of
the claims of the Catholics—he had no conscientious
scruples. They should not treat Ireland on different
principles from the colonies. They passed Acts of Par-
liament making provision for Roman Catholic ministers
in the colonies, and for chaplains of gaols and workhouses
pieces the whole machinery of society.
must
tuhsot pmea,llantdo if they were now to act otherwise, they
There were nearly 7,000,000 of Catholics in Ireland, and
it was we who put them into the condition of suppliants.
—(Hear, hear.) We seized upon the Church property
in Ireland. and gave the people of that country no equi-
valent.—(Hear, hear.) Without any change in their
religion, we took their property from them.—(Hear,
hear.) These facts could not be overlooked. This
was not a simple question of endowment ; it was
one of retribution.—(Renewed cries of " Hear, hear.")
He repeated, the property of the Roman Catholics in
Ireland was extorted from them, and as England had
made compensation to other countries, why not compen-
sate the Irish people? He admitted the claims of our
Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to civil privileges, and
we should endow them with the means of educating their
clergy. Taking all these things into consideration he
thought that any opposition to this measure would be
worse than useless. Unless the House were prepared to
go back through the whole course of fifty years, they
the Right Honourable Baronet
must assent to the grant which the Right llonourable
Baronet had proposed. If they would but look at
theyicture drawn by
could not but assent, in his opinion, to the propo-
sition which had been laid before them. The main con-
sideration was, whether there should be a removal of the
restrictions on the education of those who were to he
the spiritual instructors of the members of the Roman
Catholic church, and whether they should remain in a
comparative want of the necessary elements of their
utility, or whether they should be instructed in all the
elements of general literature. He, for his part, did
entire not
think that there was any alternative between an
disruption of the principles on which the Government
of the country had been conducted and the acceding to
the grant which the Right lion. Baronet had proposed.
It affected no principle whether the grant proposed was
9,000/. or 20.0001, for the principle was the same, and
his Right Ilon. Friend was equally justified in proposing
the grant, which had for a series of years been made be-
fore he came into office, or a larger gran: for the more
perfect education of the Irish ecclesiastical members of
the Church of Rome. This grant was simply en en-
largement of the usual grant., and it was no affection of
the principle that the giant was enlarged, and in the
present circumstances he saw no alternative between
going back and acceding to the proposition which had
been laid before the House. To go back was evidently
impossible ; and, therefore, there was no other alterna-
tive than to accede to the proposition of his Right Hon.
Friend. If they would refer to the case of Canada, it
was evident that they must either withdraw from the
population of that colony the means which they had
granted for the religious education of the people, or
carry out the same principle with regard to Ireland ;
and he thought that the mere mention of that instance
ought to be a sufficient warning to those who opposed
this grant. And deeply as he regretted refusing to act
with those who had been his coadjutors for many years,
yet he could not, in the present case, hesitate to support
the motion of his Right Hon. Itriend,
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that he had been lately deeply
engaged in an anxious investigation of this subject, and
he was now fully convinced that the opinion which he
had expressed on the first day of the session, that the
announcement the flight Hori. Btronet had made at
the end of the session svoUld Ocite do Ordinary sensa-
tion, and he now believed that that sensation would be
increased both in extent and intensity, when the inten-
tions of the Right Hon. Baronet were made known
throughout the country. He believed that he should re-
ceire ample eNdit fur tho assertion thet any dpapodition
to her Majesty's present dovertiment was to
ha ar
ceedingly painful, but of the measure which had been in-
troduced on this occasion he must express his most decided
disapproval, for he must Confess that it exceeded his
ittost enlarged Apeetatioas.--(Laughter)—and to which
the objections or his Hon. friend (Sir. It Inglis) vvere,
he thought; unanswerable ; but there were Other clifisi-
deratiotis which ought to be taken into accoUnt. lie
had, the other night, presented a pt:tition from the
Arthderton of Backinghani pd net ti
c.l9r,gy.
(Laughter.) Was thii a bla§:Zl whOse opinions kin teel-
"' "I'e iiiiwtirthy of con.ideration ?—(ltear; hear. )
They had objected most strentiouSly to this. Measure.—
t this
,He 'itir. Phitiipttej did ildt Think tha
was a blase el' inctividlials tote teglected; and he would
ask her Majesty's Government whether the rejection of
their claim to eonSidertition would rt. the Govern-
tient% illith i'espiegi tii thi goiitttrb ino tint
q
hotter position than that in Which they now stbod?
What was the language of the petitions presentbd. tai the
House on thisquestion ? They
NV ete AtrenucluslY op-
posed, to thia MA-litel 'rho said that i provisien to
la Churah of 'Rome was a provision to propagate idola-
try. They pronounced the doctrines of the Church of
flume idolatry; and thoir kilew I,liit the di4lea.kire Of
C 7.61 Vl'lai iniotidniii;ed rigaiiilt iii(iitii4- • 'riilf‘i 443 the
opinion of the great errijority of tture who had flooded
that House with their petitions. They had expressed a
decided opinion upon the subject, and he (Mr. Plumptre)
would say, that it' they passed this measure they might
e:tpect ties. Vvine i itdito,ettt ntidtt ;the ti6ttntr. The
git'at f•aajokiily of the Protestants of this country were
influenced by this opinion, and he asked whether the
House was right in sitting that night to insult the people
—he should not; perhaps, sa.,y insult—but he would
Ask if the House Would gage the fe'.,.ood eifininti of
the
,peoplh Of Etinehincif ' NV Yi etBifid theY tineashre as
asked if the House wbeoilltilectv
nciught tli.e eitlieaties, almost the alarin;.of the people
of England? He
believed
that the
thewel: es lise:—/TefUryr tlrieeea-d,hyadtloetathcceeirdesento-
bett ,little fcli Aliii ethi6siiiin--:
disrespect the
_petitionliosf /lie lafge body Of her itiat.
little fur this boon Wnich
jesty's subierts.? e, ti'lt! Fillmiltr.e)
Roitiah Catholics
ttiligntAiiiiiedistiedcattidt
them. If they wished to pander to the whims and hu-
the Government
mours of the 'Roman Cathelice, then let them pests this
treeaeeare rioiii4 ,tll4 Antitit Oat if thli ieiiiifrie :4e4
tiatAd they 'would not be urged to further conheisions?
He felt pained at being obliged to oppose her Majesty's
Government, but b also Nit bound in tiiincipl t 8 le so.
?
Lord I. RUStitlit,. 04d that fid bile *out call into
ituestio dita piii*Oer# and strung fell ions feeling whiCh
*date" tlie Honi Goitlep4 yvll9 liad,
ilist ...;.at dowb. lie
prudent,
L , lilt did hot think that it would be %Vigo of
prudent, after the lapse of fifty years, to stop suddenly
and declare against any further grant for the education of
the Roman Catholic priesthood, but at the same
time if they found that grant was misobievotis
tot ie ceetuittnitY; if thq foUrid 0. tigiiilibittit reason for
its .oikontinuance, if they found that instead of being
educated for ministers of reliion, the students of May-
nooth were brought up as coeductors of rebellion, then
it would be equally wise and politic of the House to '
withheld this grant.
~This would tin A sufficient reason
*hy the grant should hot he Contiiiiied tti MaYntotlii
sllt if; oil Uib tither haft.d, it *el'e at mitten and Aimed
13Y it riiddrity or that house, that a grant of the sum of
9,0001. and DO more oughtallowed for the sub-
sistence of the College of Maynooth, no religious
setuples could. be alleged against the increase
of OHO rant OP. 6 1610 sot, 0,1 thotatit
Mat all the appeals whim bad been wade to the
religious prejudices of this o:iuntry were beside the
question.—(Hear, hear.) It' the Gentlemen who opposed
the present propositional
; Qi'POsed the grata pf 9,000):,he might be willing tOiit ilOsit einiejetestey, tint It littd
been proved that the means of instruction were not
sufficient—that there was not a sufficient
,provision for
the decent comfort of the ;1 t.
Pups—Lat the instructors
were not adequately paid—then there was no room for
the interference of religious principles against the vote.
—(Hear, hear.) lie could very well understand why re-
ligious scruples should interfere to prevent a Member of
that House from agreeing to any vote whatever for
Maynooth College;' but no Member, who had consented
to the vote in any shape, could allege religious scruples
as a reason for denying incm ased comforts to the
students or increased pay to the ill-paid professors.—
{Hear, hear.) Those who 'be4 agreed to the previous

votes of 9,0001. had no ground for pretending their re-
ligious scruples as an objection to an increase of 17,0001.
The religious objection was as great to 9,0001. as
26,0001.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought it
was almost impossible to discuss in that House
the religious feeling which the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site had said prevailed against the encouragement of the
Roman Catholic religion as a system of idolatry. If
the persons who entertained that feeling came forward
to show that their own religious feelings would ba in-
terfered with, these statements might have some weight.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liver-
pool had truly said, that the great majority of the people
of Ireland adhered to the faith of the most ancient
branch of the Christian Church, and that no other
spiritual teachers but the priests of that branch could
supply religious instruction to that people.—
(Hear, hear.) He concurred with the Noble Lord
and he believed that the improved instruction of the
Roman Catholic priests would enable them to make the
people as it had made them—better than they would
otherwise have been.—(Hear.) He would not deny that
he should prefer that the majority of the people of Ire-
land had adopted the prlnefe'lee of the Reformation..
But he must take them as they were. They had not
changed their faith, when the people of England did so.
—(hear.) They had preferred to sacrifice the property
of their Church, and the property of its adherents—
ar)—and, therefore, he agreed with the Noble Lord
opposite, that the proposed measure was one of
restitution, not of gratuity. He thought that the Right
Hon. Baronet had shown in his speech good grounds
for the increase ; and he was glad to infer from that
speech that further concession was intended. He would,
therefore, give his vote cordially for the proposition of
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not now go into
a discussion of the proposition given notice of by his
Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. But he would
say, that in the course of this discussion, strong and in-
controvertible arguments bad been adduced in favour of
an endowment fur the Catholic clergy in Ireland.—
(Hear.) He would not then go into a discussion of the
voluntary system; but he could not allow the debate to
pass without saying that he thought the spiritual in-
structors of the Irish people ought to be paid by the
State.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish every one to be
misled by what he stated. But he thought that there
was nothing in the nature of the Government proposi-
tion of that night, which could afford a reason
for opposing it to those who for twenty
years had supported the grant of 9,000/ ;
He concurred with the petitions which had been pre•
sented against the grant in thinking it was a step towards
a further and more comprehensive measure ; but upon
that very ground he supported the proposition of the
Government. He could not altogether refrain from re-
ferring to the opposition which had been given in past
years to measures favourable to the rights and calculated
to improve the condition of the people of Ireland. He
deeply regretted that there was not even now existing
that harmony, that good feeling, that concord between the
people of England and the people of Ireland, which they
all ought to desire. He regretted to see that when a
popular leader entered a town in Ireland to propose a
repeal of the union, which in the opinion of the majority
of that House would be followed, at no distant period,
by a separation of the two countries, he was attended by
30,000 or -40,000 people, and that loud acclamations fol-
lowed at his heels. In the last twenty years there had
been too much disposition in this country to inveigh
against the religion which the people of Ireland pro-
fessed and to upbraid them in coarse and contumelious
terms. He did not think that men who came forward in
1825 and said they would never get up an agitation for the
repeal of the Union, or seek a separation between the
two countries, if the Catholic Emancipation Act were
carried, would have failed to keep their word, if they had
not had good cause for breaking it. These men would
have stood to their engagements had all gone on right,
and there would have no more been inquiry now into
the cause of agitation in Ireland, than they would have
been talking about agitation in Yorkshire or Middlesex.
But he trusted the Government of the present day were
about to abandon all former political conflicts,
and about to enter upon a wiser and a more
generous policy, which should hereafter lead to
the benefit of the people of Ireland, and lead to a better
feeling between the people of the two 'countries. Many
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland were as distinguished
for worth and humanity, as they wero for talents and
learning. No other part of the Christian Church pro-
duced men so famous for their piety, and so distin-
guished for their excellence of character. He said he
hoped the people of Ireland would hereafter feel and
unite with the people of England. They should feel
that they were ready to do them justice—that they
were not led by any narrow projects—that they were
not led—he trusted the Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last would not think that he meant to be personal—by
a spirit of religious bigotry, to refuse that which
was justice to them, and justice to their suffering
country. He trusted they would look to this measure
not as a final measure, but as one of a series of measures
by which the British Parliament hoped to unite the two
countries in enduring bonds.—(The Noble Lord resumed'
his seat, amidst loud cheers )
Colonel Sibthorp and Mr. Stewart Wortley rose
together, to address the House, There were loud cries
for Colonel Sibthorp; but the Hon. and Gallant Member
gave way.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to take an early op •
portunity of addressing the Rouge, and explaining the
reasons which induced him to feel that it was his duty
to support the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Although he could not admit that there was any literal
contract for continuing or increasing this grant, he had
a strong impression that there was a moral engagement
upon this subject which persuaded him this institution
was deserving the suport of Parliament. They were
answered first of all by the Hon. Member for Kent,
that on conscientious grounds they should not make
the grant; but though he (Mr. S. Wortley) felt the
deepest, and professed the strongest, attachment to the
Church to which he belonged, yet he did not believe it
inconsistent with that attachment to concur in the pro-
posal made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Ho-
nourable Member for Oxford used an argument
which amounted to this—that, as far as the
State is concerned, it should rather see the
people of Ireland infidels or atheists, or left to their
own choice in religious matters, than see them Roman
Catholics. It was their business, however, to recognise
the responsibilities that were imposed upon them by the
State. He himself felt that responsibility sufficiently
strong to compel him to support the proposals of the
Right Hon. Baronet.
Colonel SIBTHORP here rose to address the House,
but, in conseqttence 'of loud cries of " Sit down," and
" Divide," was obliged to resume his seat.
Mr. C. BRUCE, who was frequently interrupted by
cries of " Divide," said he hoped they would not think
it unreasonable in him to address the House at so late an
htitif; llift As 116 had been to fortunate as to catch the
Speaker's eye, he Would not omit saying that he found
with great regret that this motioff WM brought forward
and supported by those who, on former occasions, op-
posed the further increase of the grant. They were now
bringing forward a motion which would be con-
sibred by many of their supporters, both in
side and Outside tit; did douse; 113 a heavy
blow to Protestantism in irelatid.-=(tiears hear.) It
was with deep regret that he found himself compelled to
curie to a conclusion which would cause him to vote in
opposition te the tioternment on this occasion. It ap-
penred td hire that the Ministers of the Crown were not
acting inj antiordanne with these Principles which should
regulate their &linnet tip Ministnrs: lie could not regard
the measure, as it was brought forstad. its in ateotdance
with their position.—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide.")
The orqwp was still a Protestant Crown, it was held on
the condition d' its PtVtestantisna, and he could not see
how it wits consistent for gini.ters Of that Crown to pro-
Pose ti, medstirt hating for its object the endoWtiderit of a
priesthood Who would eVer reel htistility W the lirotestant
religion, and who would, so 10ug at they were
sincere, and he believed them to be sincere; eeek
not only to discourage but to subvert Protestantism.
izzttg ettnltSelled to say he could not think that
the Right hon. taroilet. yr as ut ill ,Ittetifteal, in adopting
this course, because he took an active part iii a roots are
of a nature somewhat similar some time ago, he meant
the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Loud cries of " Divide,
divide;".enl." quee,tion," from all parts of the House.)
In that latter: measure ie (Mr; C. I4,.rtre) took an active
part, though not then in Parliament, oeaiio he r'as al-
ways in favour of toleration.—(Renewed cries of
" Divide.") But he did not think that the concessions
the fletholic Relief Bill at all called upon the House
for such a measure as that at present proposed.—(Cries
of " question, question;" Therefore he would say that
this prOPositiort iitiolfed a tiolatitiii of principle which
should be guarded against. At this late hour 64 the flight
he would not further trespass on the time of the House.
—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") But he would say he
would support app measure involving a system of
general edueat do re i; tile hole population.
Colonel SIBTIIORP would not otile;iiPY lli Holies for
more than two or three minutes. He hoped that in future
stages of the Bill he might be more fortunate in catching
die StinoiPet.'4 ei*e than he had been that evening. He had
invariably opposed the giint to 0.16 Collegeapf Maynooth,
with no unchristian feeling towards that Collegt4 13th from
a sense of duty to that religion of which he owned hitne
self tin tin*orthy trierrtber.—(Laughter.) Much had been
said abed thn fe4itttfloti Of property, but how
Wald the Noble ~ Lord Oppbsite like hie family
to gm ih3 alb He4fdid pripefty; WWI origitially
belonged to the Catholics of I.llls 7—(fidughter.)
He would not have been surprised if this measure had
been brought forward by the Noble Lord opposite, but
he was disgusted at its having been proposed by a Pro-.
testant Mipiateie tine t
edudated at Oxford, too—some
tiiiie tlie: /01iihei for tigord; tut be thanked (Mord hat
he was no longer sd.--=:(tiatightbr.l Tti this . ettettstire of
the Government he (Col. Sibthorp) stiefild
&ATE itt every
stage his unqualified opposition. He would not at =et
hour of the night discuss the measure, but he would re-
tereklllniself for a future occesion. Upon every stage
Of it lie thia!detiestable measure—detests le
in every light and in every abapeeeeaS; hear.) _
Mr. SHELL rose amidst loud cries of" d tid. '
and " adjourn, adjourn." He said that only one Irish-
man had addressed the House during thel.preseAnt
Arid thought he had a kind of tn. e.—( par-
tial cry of L ActiouPe was rifised, followed by a more
in which Sir rt. Peel and Sir J.
general. one of " Go on,"
i
atisally to join.) lie felt at
Graham were observed amp
i
that hour of the night hat it was too ate to go on.—
co rao; no; ago on," and " adjourn.') He found it
difficult to go on at that hour, but if it was the pleasure
of the House, though he was in a state of health
which made it difficult for him to go on, he would pro-
ceed.—(" Go on, "go on," and "adjourn," "adjourn.")
He certainly would yield to the injunctions of the majo-
rity,tand would " go on."—(Cheers.) And when he said
he would go on, the House would remember that it was
his fatality to be compelled to " go on " at such an hour.
He gave his entire—his unqualified approbation to the
measure proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
and he thought that measure was, if possible,
enhanced in value by the spirit with which it was pro-
pounded.—(Loud cheers.) He had no doubt that one