The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-22 00:00:00

MON•DAY E N' Gs APRIL —22, 1644.

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I.
was no difference, except in word's, between moving a
negative resolution, and moving an instruction to the
Committee. He believed that the discussion wished
for could not be taken on the motion of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath. He believed the intention of
the Hon. and LearnOd Gentleman was to move a general
solemn resolution that such a thing should not be
done. He never recollected that any step on any occa-
sion intervened between going into Committee, unless
it was a resolution in the shape of an instruction to
the Committee. He thought it better to state this
now as it would prevent any supposition that they
wished to obstruct the intentions of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. ROEBUCK thought it was competent for him
either to make his motion, either on the motion for
reading the Order of the Day, or for the Speaker
leaving the chair, and that he could not be prevented
from doing so. He might be unwise in doing so, but
that he had a right to move anything restricting the
Factory Bill on the motion for the Speaker leaving
the Chair, was as well settled as anything possibly
could be. If he chose he might even go further, but
he was satisfied with the mode he had taken to bring
the subject under the consideration of the House, the
only effect of which would be that the consideration
of the subject in Committee would be put off one day.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said it was his intention to
move for a Select Committee up stairs, but he be-
lieved when the Order of the Day for the House re-
solving itself into a Committee of the whole House
on the Factories' Bill was put, then must be the
proper time for him to move that it be referred to a
Committee up stairs. The Committee would be
confined to the question of wages, because (there
was no use in the House deceiving itself on the
subject) there was a strong impression amongst the
operatives that the restriction of labour to ten hours
would not reduce wages. He knew that they said,
and that others in their behalf also said, that they pre-
ferred taking the consequence of a reduction of wages;
but then they always said that a reduction of wages
would not be the consequence.—(Hear, hear.)
The opposition of the Government to the Noble
Lord's proposition was founded upon the argument
that it would be injurious to the working classes, in
consequence of the redu,ctton of wages that would ne-
cessarily ensue from if. On a consultation with the
Short- time Committee lately, he (Mr. Duncombe)
told them that he believed that a different impres-
sion from that which they entertained prevailed in
the House of Commons. They complained of the
ignorance of the House of Commons on this ques-
tion, and, as practical men, he (Mr. Duncombe) pro-
po..ed to them to go to a Committee of the House of
Commons, and explain their grievances on the mat-
ter there, and, with regard to this particular point,
meet the argument of the master manufacturers that
this limitation would reduce the amount of wages.
They complained, and he thought justly, that the
House attended more to the statements of mas-
ters and millowners, than to the feelings and
representations of the operatives. He (Mr. Dun-
come) believed it would be satisfactory to a great
portion of the working-classes, and he thought it was
also due to the public that some further investigation
should take place on this subject. He did not believe
that which he was told would be the case if this Bill
were referred to a Committee up stairs, that it would
be hung up for the remainder of the session. He
thought it better that it should be hung up
for the remainder of the present session than
that it should be passed in the shape to which Minis-
ters had at present reduced it. That it would pass
in that shape there could not be the slightest doubt.
It was a perfect delusion to suppose that the mo-
tion of the Noble Member for Dorsetshire could by any
possibility be carried, or that it would be acceded
to by the House. The only chance the Noble Lord
had of carrying his point was by fighting step by step
in every stage in the progress of the Bill through the
House for the principle which the House had
already agreed to. The Noble Lord gave up
an opportunity of introducing a clause in
Committee, and he had given notice of his
proposition for the third reading. The Noble Lord
might have introduced the clause in Committee, and
he might also have introduced it on the report, but
he let those opportunities go by, and deferred it to the
time when the Speaker was going to put the question
from the Chair, that the Bill do pass. Then it was
that the Noble Lord's cause was to be brought up
and the Right Hon. Baronet and the Government
would then properly say to the Noble Lord and to
the House, that the clause which he proposed mili-
tated so against the whole principle of the Bill, and
the provisions which had been already agreed to, that
it would be totally impossible for the House now to
accede to it. There would be perfect good sense in that
It was perfectly proper on the part of the Go-
vernment so to do if they allowed, as the
Noble Lord was ' about to do, the Bill to
. slip through the house until it was about being
passed. Then the Noble Lord would, as it were,
take a flying shot at the Bill. But, as it was
,o pass, and when he went to discharge his second
barrel at it he would findj that the game was gone.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) That would be the
result of all the di-cussii• that had taken
place, if the decision which the House had
come to, that women and children should not
work for more than ten hours.—(Hear, hear.)
The operatives thought that the Noble Lord (Ashley)
and the House had been trifling with their interests—
that the whole thing was a delusion from beginning
to end. The only course now was for the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir J. Graham) to agree
to a Committee. Let the masters and the men
meet before an impartial Committee. and let the
public be thus satisfied who was in the right, and who
in the wrong, only by these means could they dis-
abuse the public mind of the impression which
prevailed that they were totally ignorant of the
interests of those for whom they were legislating.
Lord ASHLEY said it had not been his intention
to make a single remark, but the observations of the
Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe) in-
dueed him to read to the House three lines of a letter
received by him (Lord Ashley) that morning. The
Hon. Gentleman said the operatives considered that
he (Lord Ashley) had deluded them—that his con-
duct was; in fact, tantamount to a surrender. Now
he (Lord Ashley) believed that the operatives
of England were quite as fit judges of what was for
their own good as the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Finsbury—(Hear, hear)—and he also thought
they had amongst them ten times more justice and
ten times more candour than he could pride himself
upon.—(Cheers and laughter.) The letter, from
which he was going to quote, was written by autho-
rity of the Central Short Time Committee of Lan-
cashire, and it said thus—" We are all of opinion that
the course you have adopted is the best that
under the circumstances you could have taken. We
shall give you all the support that lies in our pewer."
Mr. AGLIONBY said he hoped the Hon. Member
for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe) would not take any
course that would interfere with the Noble Lord the
Member for Dorsetshire (Lord Ashley). He had ever
seen that Hon. Member (Mr. Duncombe) foremost
to protect the privileges of the working classes, but
he would not show himself the zealous friend he had
been to them, if he took any proceeding upon the
subject before the House without the sanc-
tion of that Noble Lord (At•hley.) The
sincerity of the Noble Lord was great, and
his judgment was as great as his sincerity.
Ile placed implicit faith in the Noble Lord, and re-
lied entirely upon his judgment and sincerity. He
believed that the Noble Lord's course was approved
of by the working.classes.---(Cheers.) Many of those
who had cheered the Hon. Member for Finsbury were
directly opposed to the motion, and might, perhaps,
be induced to urge him to go on, in hopes of defeat-
ing the measure.—(Hear, hear.) They had heard of
delusions in the minds of the working classes on this
subject, and that wages must inevitably fall in couse-
quence of this measure. He believed that the greater
nnmber of the working classes were as able to judge
of this question as any of the Members of that House.
They had the greatest interest on it, and it was too
much for Members who had no acquaintance with
the practical details to presume to theorise as they
did. He believed that too much attention
was paid to the master mill-owners and to political
economists. He acknowledged that the question
was one of great difficulty, but he believed that the
intelligent Members of the working classes had well
considered the question: and were perfectly competent
to decide it. He should certainly support the Noble
Lord.—(Cheers.)
Mr. STEWART WORTLEY complained that 1.
the House should be called upon to discuss these
motions on the second reading of the Bill.
The llonourabla Member for Bath had given
notice of a motion on going into Commit-
tee, and the Honourable Member for Finsbury
had also given notice of his intention to move that
the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. The
Honourable Member for Sheffield had also given
notice of his intention to propose an amend-
ment on the discussion of one of the clauses.
Now, it struck him that it would be exceedingly in-
convenient to have all these motions discussed at
once ; and he wished to ask the Speaker which mo-
tion would have precedence—that of the Hon. Member
for Bath, or that of the Hon. Member for Finsbury ?
The SPEAKER said, that according to the rules
of the House, after the order of the day had been
read, the Hon. Member for Finsbury might move,
that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, and
when that motion was disposed of it was competent
to any Hon. Member to move a resolution provided
it was relevant to the question.
Mr STANSFIELD (who was almost inaudible,
owing to the noise and confusion in the House) was
understood to say, that he had several alterations and
amendments in this Bill when before
.the Committee

( and which Nl' oulcl-arcr e sei-eral other branches of
' manufactures as well as the woollen trade.
Mr. ROSS said there was so much exaggeration
and so many misstatements upon this subject, that he
had thought it his duty to appeal to those who had
the best means of coming to a true conclusion on the
matter, so he appealed to several of his constituents in
town of Belfast, and in consequence he had been
induced to a certain degree to alter his opinions.
Petitions, numerously signed by working-men and
young persons about the age of 15, had been presented
to the House, praying it not to interfere
with labour. The petitions, taking a different view
from that of his Honourable Friend, asserted
that the inevitable consequence of reducing the hours
of work would be the reduction of wages. Seeing,
therefore, the opinion of the manufacturing employers,
backed by that of the working men, he had determined
to change his course, although his conduct might ap-
pear inconsistent, he thought the best consistency
was that of always endeavouring to act according to
what he believed the rights of any particular case.
Mr. HINDLEY thought the best argument in
favour of the course suggested by the Honourable
Member for Finsbury was the speech of the
Honourable Member for Belfast. This change of
opinion showed the necessity of probing this
whole question to the bottom. When the doc-
trines of political economy were understood,
they a ould be found in favour of humanity.
The Right Hon. Gentleman reproached a majority of
the House with being a tyrant majority. But the
conduct of the Government was such as to deserve
the reproach of a tyrant minority.--(Hear, hear.)
In fact, he never saw a Government act in so perverse
and ungracious a manner.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. PHILLIPS was astonished at the course
now taken by the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken
last, and who had, in former times, voided all the pro-
visions of the Factory Act. But he might not be as-
tonished at what had fallen from the Hon. Mem-
ber for (Ashton-under-Lyne.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
He would leave it to the Hon. Gentleman to recon-
cile his own former acts with the opinions which he
now expressed.—(Hear). He (Mr. Phillips) would
take the judgment of the Hon. Member for Belfast,
in preference to the statement of the Hon. Member
for Ashton-under-Lyne. The Hon. Member for
Belfast had been •intluenced on a former occasion by
the exaggerations which had prevailed in the
House upon this subject, and he voted in
favour of the Noble Lord (Ashley). But
then the Hon. Gentleman inquired into the matter in
a judicious manner, deriving his information from
practical persons, both men and masters, and he now
came forward manfully to declare that he was wrong
in his former vote.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. P.) had
always been opposed to interference with the labour
of adults.