The Sun.
London, England, 1817-07-01 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF FINANCE.

The Sixth Report (tf tikeeleet C'ennitittee oia
hnance was delivered yesterday morning : it re-
lates entirely to. the N.aeal Service. The Com-
mittee enter into a general view of the great heads
under which the Ettituates ate prepared, and af.;,.
tcrwards some examination of the more detailed

emt.

1. The Wear and Tear.-,--A• greater naval esta;
blishment was to be expected than at any, former
peace, mid if the force intended to be employed
shall answer the general wants, your Committee
See no reason to apprehend that it will in any dew•
gree exceed theM. 'There is another considerate
tion also; which, even if the Same extent of duties
only existed;woold account for the employment
()la somewhat ..,rater number of. men 'than on
~,• .•
former 'occasions. The other maritime nations
have, during the last 25 years, gone on increas-
ing the Size of their ships, which has of course
obliged this country to act upon a corresponding;
systeni. The classes of 64 and 50-gun ships have
almost disappeared, and haye been replaced ill
other maritime countries by ships of 74 guns ;
their frigates and sloops have been enlarged, and
it is adviseable that our ships of war should not be
in any degree inferior to the ships of other
Powers. This involves an increase in the coat..
plenteOts of the ships in commission.
The amount of force afloat fur the year is as
much reduced as could be reasonably expected.
2. THE ORDINAEY ES'ilMATE.—Acinziralty Of-
fice.-;-The emoluments of the Secretaries appear
not to go beyond the importance of their situa-
tions, and of the ability requited fOr filling them,
with the exception only of ,an increased allowance
during war. This, in the opinion of your Com-
mittee, is founded on an erroneous principle, and
leads to diffictilty and inconvenience in practice.
It can hardly be supposed that persons in the situ-
ation Of Secretaries to the Admiralty, can turn any
occasional leisure which a state of peace may af-
ford to then), to any purpose-profitabie io a peer).
niary sense; and the great difference which may
exist in the extent-and nature of the wars in which
this country May be engaged, renders that which
in one case would be inadequate (lithe mere scale
of labour is to be the measure of salary), in other
instances excessive. Your Committee therefore
concur with the opinion expressed in former Re-
ports, and upon which the House and the Govern-,
ment have acted in almost every other instance,
that this distinction is highly objectionable, and
ought to be abolished. It is impossible fin your
Committee to enter into minute details of the ha-
siness .transacted in the Admiralty Office ; but they
have been assured, and they see no reason todoubt
the assertion, that hitherto the diminution ii) the
number of clerks has kept pace with the diminu,
tion of labour in that department.
Navy Pay- Office.---,The Committee hope that
a very considerable reduction in the establishment
will be deemed practicable.
Navy Othce.—The Committee are far from be-
ing satisfied that so many Commissioners of the
Navy are requisite in time of peace, even with the
addition of labour which the Transport Service
has imposed- on this department. It appears to
your Committee (although a contrary opinion is
entertained in the Office), that the three divisions
of the General Board, consiathig one of tour Com-
missioners, and. the others of three, might each.
he [educed to two meinhers without inconvenience
to the public service, and that the difficulties stated
against this proposition are merely technical.
Greenwich hospital.—The Hospital and Cheat,
notwithstanding the immeose claims made roma
them, have been able to accomulate a capital ht
time Funds of not less than 3.760,0001.3 per cents.
But as the peace diminishes the priocipal sources
of revenue, while the claims ()retire Hospital are
largely increased, it is clear that the funded pro-,
perty cannot be expected to last beyond a limited
number of years, and that then a very great and
nual expellee will fall upon tire public.
Since 1814, a system of registry of seamen has
been adopted, and of the 32,000 out-pensioners
now on the hooks, not less than from 12 to 15
thousand are capable of active service afloat, anti
a further number might he found useful tor shore
or harbour service. The Committee recommend
Government to pay a Minot e practical attentiort
to the operation of this part of the system. '
Buildings and Repairs of Ships.Considgrable
exertions are now making fora complete,
Lion of the fleet by the constrtietion of new ships,
and by thoroughly
repairing all such as ate judg-
ed to be in a state sufficiently good'to Warrant so
great an expense ; and they think that there is no
object upon• which the House will be less dispos-
ed-to call for a parsimonious ellpentliture than 011

this.
Works in the Yards.—'-Tile Committee approve-
highly of the policy of constructing the Arsenal.
of Sheerness on ‘a large and sp,tentatie arrange-
ment, capable of ansviering the public wants. at
the'cotintty, affortlitig a safe anchorage for the or-
dinary in time of peace, and a convenient port of
outfit and refit for squadrons ttnßloyvii its ,she
Ninth Sea. They speak warmly of that great nio
tional work the breakwater in'elytnouth Sound

P A R.L-I AMEN T.

WiTTSE'OE LORDS, MowtmY, lugs 30.

'irittoSvENotit presented a Vetition 'from cer
lain Ind'. idnals against Machi►►ery. His Lord,

ship stated -his diffeer'nee of .opinion with the Pe-
tiiioners, Observing, that, were it oat for Machi-
!wry, those persons who were now 'employed-,
~would be unable ro obtain work.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE also depreented a cry
trg3inst Machinery, observing, that (bete was no
in,nt in Ergland who knew any thing upon the
subject, who was not fully convinced, tkiat per-
7sou.s seeking the destruction or abolition of Ma-
chincry, were welting their own utter and en-
Aire ruin.
The l'etitiem' was.ordered to lie on the Table.
The 'Ail.`l""Y "fi'd Naval O'4ths' Bill was read a second time,
mi and oeatted for to-mot-low.
Irish Slitrills4 Bill, and the Clerks of the Peace Fees'
Bill, PRksed through Committees, and were reported without
-Amendment.
The further consideration of the Saving Baulie Bill was
.pustponed till to-morrow.
HABEAS CORPUS -SUSPENSTON.

'the Ordtr of the Day Ravin;; been read for
taking into-coNsideration the Ainendineht made
'by tl►e 114:use of Commons hi the Habeas Corpus
-Suspension Bill,. and also the chief Amendment,
limi►ing the duraiion of the Bill to the Ist March,
ISt

The Earl of LIVERPOOL obserVed, it bad been
thought more advisable, in the House of Cont-
thous, to fix a.determinate time for t.he_expiration
of this Bill; than to leave it dependent upon coo-
lin2encirs contKe;ed with the meeting of Parlia-
went. Hail the atnendmeot, however, materially
. shuitcned Ihe time,.he should have felt-it his duty
to oppose it but us in the w#y the 13111 originally,
at% tould not have continued longer than
.ut the :middle of March, or from thence

April, he did not see any reason. for.ob•
jectkog 10 aht defioire period of the Ist of March
I.fteret)re trlOVed to agree to the amendment

Tbc Nlaiquis tai LANsnowNs said, he did no

mean now 10 renew the discusSion upon this sub-
ject, trusting that the causes of discontent would
ere long he removed, by there bt'ing a greater de-
mand of lahout, and by the beneficial consequences
_of a favors able harvest: it was in this view that
be thought it was at all events entirely tinneces-
saty to continue this Bill for so long a period,
and he should therefore move, in order to record
his opinion, to insert the 3lst December next,
.•iustrad of thelst 01 March, ISIB.
'flae Earl of DoNtitiGtimoßE con6idered this

ute,isnre an evil, .and should therefore vote for
.givity, it the shorter doratioo moved for by his
N,,hle Friend. He trusted, however, as the goes-
' tine n.,vr brio' e the tiouse involved the considera,

tin Of the manner in which the extraordinary
powers entrusted to the Government had been
.'exerciAed, that some infOrin.tiion would he afford,
ed upon certah4oints connected with the subicet,
and that some pledge would be given of its being
• intended! to execute these powers With humanity
. and mildness towards the unfortunate individuals
xv:lo might bL•come the objects of it. A case
lately been publicly mentioned of which their
Lors;ships could not be ignorant, that of two in-
di••:ithials. father and son, of the. name of !!,vans,
ho had been arrested by the yr wont of the No•-
• Socretary.of Stare, and conveyed to the gaol
Sqrrey, where it was stated they were closely
confitied in dungeons, without the magistrates
. heipa allowed to visit them ; that they had been
. heavily ironed, and that they had been. deprived
of the inc.ins of petitioning the other House of
Parliament with rtgard to their situation. He
did i;ot irt.a:A. to charge this upon the Noble Sc-

Cllstary of State, hut it appeared to have resulted
iron' the acts of those o;l.iciating under him. What
. offeiii..e the two iudividioils alluded to had com-
miocd he li:io!.tv not, hilt it svould surely not be
rog,ed that any intliret scary harshness or severity
ought to be used towards them ; and it was the
mote iocunthent to obtain some ple!;ge as to the
future exercise of the powers given by this flea.
sure, duriog, the recess of Parliameut unfortu-
nate individuals imprisoned under the exercise of
!hose pit veN, would have no means of giving
publicity to their complamts.
Luid Vi Count SIDMOUTH said, if it was re-
rpired of him to give a pledge of a conduct dif-
tt tort fruit) I bat which lie had hitherto adopted, it
utterly impossible. No orders for any intim-
, cessary harshness or severity had ever been issued
by him With regard to the case of the two
Evans's, tl,e Noble Lord had been grossly imposed
. upon. He (Lord Sidtnouth), in consequence of
the statements made regarding these individuals,
had sent for the tiaoler of ilorseoionger-lane, who
had a.tended him that morning, when it clearly
appe:tred, that the whole of what bad been stated
was a misrepresentation. So tar from these indi-
-enfolds being confined in dungeons, they were
placed in two light, airy rooms, 25 feet by 18,.
where they had kvery indulgence allowed them
that was consistent 'with their situation. As to
their being prevented trim) petitioning Parlia-
:rneor, this was also untrue. !lad obstruc-
tion been thrown iii tlre way of their petitioning
by the Gaoler, the latter, so far as depended upon
hint (Lord Sidtnouth), should not have remained
tin hour longer in that situation. The tact, how-
ever, was directly the reverse. No obstruction
whatever been thrown in the way—they had all the
means of petitioning; mid it appeared by a certi-
ficate produced at his (Lord Sidmouth's) office by
'7rlr. Harmer, that the petition, which, it was al-
leged ;hese individuals had bees prevented from
forwailing, had actually been preseated to the
}louse of Commons by Mr. Bennett in February
last. Recently Mr. Harmer, before alluded to, a
-very respectable Agent, called at his (Lord Sid-
mouth's) office, to request permissioa to be ad-
',bitted to the Evans's, ui orckr to engross a peti-
titm for them to be presented to the House of
Commons. Permission was immedkirely given,
mud the petition having been engrmsed, was pre-
sented to the Lioose of Commons on Friday last.
Thus it appeared that the Noble Lord had been
imposed upon from some quarter by a grOSSi mis-
representation, With regard to the statement
(tat had gone abroad, that the visiting Illagis-
tral..s were not allowed to see prisoners confined
the powers given by this act, it was alto-
gether outrtic.—Wkat Some Of the Lierloshire Ma-

gi•trates generally had a right to visit thesc-pri-
souers-? This he had negatived ; but the Visiting
Magistrates had still the sante 'right they had be-
fore •of visiting these firisoners. In all cases, also,
where he found himself undertlreunfortunate neecs-
gity of cotnmittitig an individual, so far fromt here
being any obstruction in the way of petitioning,
he always informed such individual, that if he
wished to petition the Sovereign,,or either House
of 'Parliament, every means of doing so would be
afforded him.

~Earl GROSVENOR observed it.-Was impossible to
suppose that the Noble Visconnt would subject
individualS committed under the clreuinstances
stated to any unnecessary harshness or severity,
but through this undoubtedly applied to the-Noble
Viscount personally', it might not he applicable to
,some of those employed under him. lie .confd
not help observing, however, that the Noble Se-
cretary of State had not answered one point :ot
charge regarding the treatment of the Evans'S..
namely, that respecting their having been put in
irons, and which he thought was an allegation ma-
terial to he replied to.. With regard to the Bill, he
should support the Amendment moves' by his. Nobie
Friend, hot lie did not intend to go over,agam the
grounds of opposition to the measure itself. Ht•
could not help, however, adverting to the employ-
ment of spies and informers which he considered
as highly disgraceful to the Government who thus
employed men in the first instance to lie, and.of
whom nothing else could be expected, than that
they would lie ever after,wards ; thonght, upon
this point, that the conduct. of the Nohle lltike
(Bedford), wlwn Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (as
mentioned in the debate of a former night) in re-
jecting the testimony of spies and informers was
highly worthy of imitation.
Lord NONTFOrrr rose to hear testimony, -as a.
Magistrate• for Surrey, to the humanity of the
Gaoler. of Horsemonger-lane, whom he consider-
ed ,also as a- well-tempered and well-disposed
individual. •

Lot d Viscount St nmouTH complimented the
Noble Lord for the liberal and csmiid. opinion he
had given respecting Eh,. Gaol,r of Horsemonger-
lane, and .which was also a just one. re-
gard to the Evans!s having been lint in irons, the
fact was this; On their being the
gaoler, considering theta in the s:one point of view'
as persons committed on similar charges, though
not under similar circumstances, bad in coutormii y
with the established relit's, of the prison, put irons-
on them. Upon iris (Liird Sidmonili's) being
informed of the circumstance, he notnediitelv
issOetl orders for their irons to he taken off, which
Orders were executed within an hour after they
were issued.

Lord REDEsoALE made some observations upon
an expression of Lord Grosvenor's, respecting the
Duke of Bedford's government of Irehnd, and
contended that spies and informers ought to be
attended to, in ort:er to obtain information. Had
these persons been more attended to by the Go-
vet•nment preceding that of the Duke of. Bedford
in Ireland, he thought the life of his highly
esteemed friend, Lord liil‘%arden, n►ight still
hr►ve been preserved; and it was owing to the
want•of that information that lie (Lord Redesdale)
was very near. being made prisoner for the purpose
of bcin kept as an hostage by the insurgents.
Earl Gitosve NOR said, i►e had not instituted any
comparison between the Government sit the D,►ke
of Bedford and the preceding Government in
Ireland.

The Earl of RoS&LYN deprecated the introduc-
tion of topics from former deh.<<es.
Lord REPEsnALK nitsititained, that the allusion
to a former debate had been tit ht made by a Noble
Earl (Grosvenor).

The Amendment moved by the Marquis of Lans-
downe was put and-negatived, and the Amendment
made by the fion.ft. of Common! was agreed to, and
a Message ordered to be sent to them, stating that
their Lordships concurred in the Amendment.

SINECURE ApourioN, AND OFFICIAL REGULATION

BILLS.

The Earl of LIVENPOOL moved the Order of the
Day respecting these measures.
The Marquis of LANsnowt4e, before entering
upon the discussion of these Bills, wished to be
formed upon sonic paints connected with the sub-
ject. The Bilis were rounded upon the Reports
of a Committee of the House of Commons ; but
it appeared, that the whole number of offices re-
commended in those Reports to be abolished, were
not included in theSe Bills. He %visited for some
explanation upon this poiot, and also %elth regard
to the term existing interests, used with respect
to some of the offices ; he %visited to know what
was precisely meant by those words. Ile was also
desirous of being informed with respect to the
pensions to be granted by the Crown to persons
having held certain offices, whether in case any
such persons already held a pension, the latter
pension was to revert to the Crown or %VAS to be
disposable by giving it to some one else ?
The .Earl of LtsrEaPoot. (with, regirtti to the
offices' alluded to by the Noble Mafqiiii,' as men-
tioned in the Reports,' but not inelnded in the
Bills,) observed, that it did nut hollow that be-
cause they were so mentioned in the Reports,
that therefore the House of Commons was to act
exactly according to the suggestions of the Re-
ports. The facts were, however, that with re-
spect to some of the otfices there were difficulties
in the way which could not be arranged in time
to allow cif these offices: being legislated upon
in the present Session of Parliament. 'This was
the case with regaril to the office of Lord Justice
'.General of Scotland; also with respect to the
office of Clerk of the Parliaments,• regarding
which some proposition ought to originate in
some way in that Mouse ; the same observation
as to the impracticability of legislatirtg, this Ses-
sion, likewise applied to several offices in Ireland.
With regard to the term existing interests, it was
applied in order to save time interests Of those who
wet eiu possession of the offices. As to the Pen-
sions, if an individual preyiunsly held a pension,
and became entitled to miennder the Compensa-
tion Bill, the former would merge in the latter.. •
The Marquis of LArtsnowt4a, 'thought some fur-
ther explanation necessary, regarding the term.
existing interests, as it appeared to him to be used
in these Bids in R diqinet sense train vested inte-
rests, and that it was the first time Parliatueot had
been coiled upon to allow existing interests, to stand

Way DI
UR! reglii

ton ca un- ces, wilen these

interests merely arose from au appointment during
pleasure.
The Ertrl of LiirkßPool. said, there was no
question as to the cotipetenteerf Parliament, the
case was merely this, that it bad been thought
fit, tinder special .ciTcunistatices, to make all ex-
ception in favour of ekistjtig interests.
The LoRD CHAFICELLOR said, that hi some in-
stances in these Dills, Ficisjirig interests were not
sufficiently guarded, at least those interests which
would be existing after those immediately sub•

sisting. . •
The Earl of LtYcdPooi;theit proceeded to enter-
upoi) the qu'estion that the House Should go into
a Committee, beginning with one of the Bills
then on the table. - He should however treat the
subject generally. He should begin_hy sheaving
the difference between the present measure which
he supported, and the former Abolition Bills,
which he opposed. The Bills brought up at dif-
ferent times were in principle objectionable.
• They included all sinecures in one sweeping
Bill, without explaining what they meant by
sinecure, arid joined with those offices others
of a most important, and even judicial charaCter.
The former Bills were.full of absurdities. The
President of the Council was joined with the
Auditor of the Exchequer, and the Keeper of the
Great Seal with
,the Clerk of the Pells. In the
Bilis before their- Lordships these incongruities
were aVoided, and they were so framed that the
Crown hail effectual means provided fur it to re-
ward tiuhlic service. It was said, that it would
affect the aristocracy. The fact was, that a womid
to any branch ot the State under our ,Consitinion
was felt by the whole but it appeared to him that I
it would affect the democrati-', riot the aristocratic
interests ot the country, if the iilV3iiS of legitiMate
influence were taken from the t`,rown. With-
out!' • this :node of rewarding -public service, such.
men as Mr: Pelham (to only of the dead),
Mr. George Grevdle, the two Mr. Pius, the
ancestors of two Nolk.- Barons not then in their
places,, and his late lamented friend, Mr. Pcreeyal,,
would probably never have been enabled to devote
their talents to the service of the State. In this
country the emoluments of the higher offices Were
not equal to the necessary expenditure. He could
give, as an example, tire situation filled by him-
self. He should strongly condemn a provision.
for public service by the vote of Parliament, even:
fur its profuseness. The extent there 'wrnitl be'
unlimited, and. lead 'front personal motives and
individual importunity to incalculable abuse. It
would be impossible to tie the-hands of Parliament,
whereas, by leavin;., the disposal of rewards for
public service to the Crown, the whole length to
which it was possible to go was distinctly marked
out, and exercised by Ministers tinder their cffi-
cial responsibility. It, a a's a great mistake to sup-
pose that the Exchequer offices were•.sinucures.
They were offices of account and controul, and
therefore unfit to be held by political persons. By
the regulations in the measure which he proposed,
these offices would be put on the proper footing.
The truth of this was clear_ from the fact of Lord
Grenville having been at the same time Auditor of
the Exchequer and First Lord of the Trefeanry, the
former of which was intended to be a column]
upon the latter. Another strong . reason for this
change was thegreat prejadiceagainst those offices,
though those who possessed them had been most
liberal and public spirited: Whilst these 'advan-
tages were gained there was no invasion of the
salutary. rights of the Crown. His, object was,
that the Crown should reward public service by
pensions, where it had hitherto done that by the
grant of offices. The public would be a great
gainer by this mode, rather than by Parliament-
ary grant, even in this respect—that a general
regulation of 3000/.. a' year to•all those who filled
certain offices, would include even those whose
private tortmles did not require it ; whereas the
Crown would confer a pension with a regard to
the private income of the individual. It he were
not fully satisfied ot the utility of this measure in
every respect, he should be the last person togive
it hiS support. His Lordship concluded by mov-
ing, that the House should resolve into a Com-
mittee.

On the Noble Earl's sitting clown the LORD
CHANCII,LOR rose and atiltiaiiited the House, that
be had received his Majesty's Contn►ission for de-
claring the Royal Assent to certain Bills which
had passed both [louses of Parliament, and Which
was held adviseable to carry into immediate
effect.

Shortly after the Nable arid Learned Lord,
with the Earls of 11AattowNY and SHAFTESBUWY,
being robed, took their seats as his Maje•sty's
Commissioners on the Bench, in front of the
'Throne, and the Commons attending, the Royal
Ascent was declared to the Post 1.-lories Duty
Bill, the SuTension Continuance, the American
Trade, the Militia Officers, the Zrish forfeited Re-
cognizances, and to one private Bill.
After the Commons had withdrawn, the debate
on it he •above-tnentiooeil Bali was iortikvith re-

Tire Earl of LAUDERDALE was surprised that
the Noble Earl should uow support what in 1812,
1813, and 1814 be had opposed. It was said by
the Noble Earl that they were different. The
eport of the Commons, in its second paragraph,
said the measures now and then were the saute.—
' (Hear, hear !)—These otlires were as unfit fur
political men in 1812 as now,anclas to any odium,
did the Noble Earl look to the odium cast up-
on them by the Meeting in Spa-fields. He now
looked hack with pain to the support he gave
Mr. Bmke's Bills, one effect of which was, send-•
ing a large mass of the landed interest from the
other into that. House, and thereby changinl; the
Constitution. The fair influence of the Crown
was diminished, and its injurious influence in-
creased. By depriving. the Crown of twenty-two
principal appointments, these Bills gave it ninety-
n e interior appointments, which from fortune
and condition were more liable to absolute con-
troul. The real secret of this Bill was, that it
came from a party in tl,e Howe of Commons
which had a sort of neutral character, a very .re-
spectable party he believed. That party now
wished to slide into a little popularity, and this
measure had been yielded to them for their support
on other questions.
The Emil of ilattnciwialt supported the measures

vance

118 r

b;

le

nn similar grounds "to those ar
Friend who opened the discussion,
Lord REDESDALE urged a variety of objections
to the proposed measures, and pointedly urged that
of their going to lodge in other hadds a patronage
which had been so long constitutionally exercised
by the thoivn.

Earl GROSVENOR approved of any measure tend-
in to the abolition of sinecures; but to what was
called the Compensation Bill, he was decidedly op-
posed. He also seemed to condemn an incon-
sistency which urged suclvneasures as the present,
which it rejected almost with scorn on a former
occasion.

Lord ARDEN deprecated tl►e adoption of the
proposed measures, principally on the ground of
their tending to diminish a patronage which had
been for centuries salutarily exercised by the So-
vereign.

The Loan CI4AELLOR generally supported the
Bills ; and in reference to what had fallen from a
Noble Earl, observed that he had actually pre-
served one of the Bills alluded to by him (as re-
jected with scorn on a former occasion), as a Le-
zislativc curiosity ; for any thing more absurd,
in the shape,ot an. Act of Parliament, be had ne-
ver seen.

Lord ERSKINE opposed' the measures, chiefly
on the grounds of their diminishing the constitu-
tional influence of the Croifn.

Earl BATHURST, in support of the measures,
answered the artnnents of the Noble Lords op-
Posite, and expressed his surprise at any attcomt
which seemed to regard the reslionsibilifyof Mi-
misters as dis: inct from the constitutional power
of the' Crown.

'flee Qaestion being called for, elle lloiese di-

ir'ilie(t--...

Con ttnts c,7
Not-Contents
Majority fur going Lao a Colutnitt, e ,

Their Lordships' then resolved into Committeel
on severat Bilk, and the samee-being gone Ibrougb.
the Hmise adjourned till to-morrow.
[For the Proceedings in the ;Flom of Corittnoo; see