The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-14 00:00:00

EVENING, F_EIIIIITARY 14, 1b45

-
sidering maturely the manner in which they should had become bad by reason of the dry rot having git into them,
,
have their war steamers constructed ; and he had no and many of them had been ordered to be cut down, and were
hes;tation whatever in saying, that not one of those war found to nave made very excellent frigates. Whether this was
steamers, after havisig cost all this money, was fit to take a prudent course er not, he would not pretend to say. but when
her place as a man-of-war, or had in her construction it was done there was nothing to pi event the authorities of
the smallest protection from, an adversary. In fact, the whichfrom
engines and beams that worked the engines were so acnffeswould wish toecfraawratahtee attentiona ai against the
e the d mita lotsy
to Board,
e
thath day
placed, that the first shot fired into one of them from first of those charges that applied to the present Boaard, be-
an enemy's ship, would destroy both boilers and engines, cause ne did not feel that he was bound to defend the acts of
and blow her up. The beam that worked the engines that Board before he and his colleagues came into office.--
was on the top of the cylinder, sl that the first shot ( Hear, hear.) He would begin, then, with the period when
fired at it, would blow up the ship. Whereas, if those he did come into office, and he would premise by requesting of
war steamers had been built of a sufficient depth, and the House to consider the position in which be and his col-
the engines and boilers placed below the water, the leagues were placed at that time, in reference to the Navy
works would be so far safe ; and if the Board of Admi-
airo, hear.) Every one was aware of
Board, and particularly in reference to their position with Sir
rally had so ordered the construction of them, he bad no William
Y therefore, if the first act of therengeawrdßtoolutihat gentleman'
ttll and,
t.
doubt but that every engineer in the country would sa the feeling that Symonds.—(Hear,
ships then in course of building under wasthe diorecsta all
Sir
it could be done. He also found that in the mode of
taking in coals, those vessels were equally defective, and William Symonds, would it not be said that he had not been
inconveniently contrived.—( Hear.) These observations, treated as he deserved.—( Hear.) Many of the most excellent
he begged it to be understood. applied to corvettes, which and valued officers in the navy considered that that officer had
were commanded by commanders. He now came to an- done the navy and the service very great benefit.—( Hear. )
other class—namely, steam-frigates. The first he would But the Gallant Officer opposite and the House should recollect
mention was the Gorgon, which cost the country 28,000/ that when he ( Sir G. C.) came into office, the Queen, with
press of being built, and when she was completed, the Adrni-
to construct ; yet she was 1,200 tons heavier than a 46- which the Gallant Officer had found so much fault, was in pro-
gun sailing vessel; she had no means of firing guns from
( Hear.) She went to the Mediterranean • and the next the
l rally Board sent her to sea, in order to try her power.—
her main-deck, so that if she should be chased by a supe-
rior vessel to-morrow, she had no means of using more
, class,th at she
excepthad theth the advantagevaogoard .o f
Thata ll the etheravesselTehr
adalsalso
vessels
been
e o the
Board heard of her was, that she was 'y
excellent ship, and
than one gun to defend herself. When this vessel was
put in the water it was found that she had this defect
1 and then, indeed, it was said that she was never by Sir William Symonds; and he (Sir G. C.) would ask,
intended to carry guns on her main deck. In answer would it have been just in the Board when they came in to have
orderedam e
to that, all he would say was, that if she was so in- stopped her?—(Hear.) But here let him say, in defence of
tended, she could not carry 4hein; and if she was not, the present Admiralty, that when they did come in, they re-
those who built her knew nothing about it.—(Hear and solved not to build any more until those in progress should
laughter.) Well, the Board of Admiralty, having seen have been completed and tried--( Hear)---and when they had
their mistake in respect to this vessel, it was to be ex- flitteragerofbottosorotfofolnstseel the Albion was, they stopped the
ported they would try to correct it in the next. But G. C. ) came into office,ttheotelt'eairs.i—l( Hear.)
3oatd When ho ( Sir
what was their next step? The next vessel they built ing the slightest disrespect to Sirtklar ragmoncle,,orwtoithoouesttimoneaa;
was the Cyclops, which cost 27,000 e ; she, like the merits in the least, resolved to form a committee of all the
Gorgon, had rings and ports, &c., for main• deck guns, most talented masters of ships, to whom they gave directions
and yet, when she was launched, she was found to have to report to them upon the best mode of arming the sterns and
the very same defects as the Gorgon.—(Hear, hear, prows of those vessels.—( Hear.) That report was made, and
and a laugh.) In order that the Cyclops might look laid before the Surveyor-General of the Board, and he cer-
beautiful on the water, her lower ports had to be caulked tainly did differ from much that it contained. —(Hear. ) With
up. and instead of being able to carry four guns on her regard to the Queen being so defe _five as the Gallant Officer
main deck, she could not carry one.—(Hear. hear.) opposite had stated, he (Sir G. C.) begged to say that the rea-
He had no hesitation in saying that if these vessels were son she was put into dock and altered was, because the surveyor
had stated that the reason she was so defective was because she
properly constructed, they would be able to fight two
, ruid those ons, and, therefore she gotyth could
two in the quarters. The tonnage of the whole of these to remedy any other defective vessels, and with this view they
vessels was 12,872 tons, and the whole amount of cost had selected three of the best naval architects they could find
was 290,0221. There was the Firebrand, of 1,190 tons ; to examine all the other vessels said to be defective, to report
the Gladiator, of 1,210 tons ; the Samson, of 1,299 tons ; upon their faults, and to take mire that those faults should be
the Scourge, of 1,190 tons—all of them in the same avoided in all future vessels.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
category with the steam corvettes that he had men- mean to say that the officers employed by the present Board
tioned. Not one of them had any main-deck guns—not of Admiralty were superior to those they had succeeded, sad
it was but fair of him to say that Sir W. Symonds was inferior
one of them had ports fit fur stern guns. It was, be
confessed, astonishing to him—he could not understand tohodinoTe
aof them.—(Hear, hear.)
o hear He s
that MreW(hTtier G.
sCockburn)
how it was possible, when the Board of Admiralty had ssu erio'r qtutalificasa;tu>enstirne office, office, and had done one of the
plans and models laid before them of ships, most extraordinary feats in improving a vessel, that,
whether men-of-war or sti,arci- ships, that they perhaps, had ever been heard of The Board hid
could omit asking the constructor where were his how- picked out a 42-gun ship, and cut off her bowie
guns, and where were his stern-guns. " I see your and Mr. White was employed to put new bows to her,
drawings and your models, but Ido not see a single ship and in this he had succeeded so well, that the vessel, upon,
with two guns at its head or at its stern." He admitted being sent out on trial, performed her voyage without letting
they had two bow-ports, but he should like to see the in any water, which was a very desirable perfection.—(Hear.
man who could work them. It was almost impossible to hear.) Again, he would say, that the Board deserved credit
do so. Certainly it could not be done with efficiency. for not doing anything likely to wound the feelings of Sir W.
The last vessel constructed was t'ie Retribution. She -Symonds, by being in too great a hurry to upset the works
was an enormous vessel, of 1,641 tone, b -ing
nearly as they found going on when they cause into office.—(Hear,
large as their old line-of battle ships. Now, would the r.) In the meantime, if the Admiralty should find that
defects existed in the Albion and the Queen, and the other
House believe it—she was to carry only one gun on a vessels on the stocks, care would be taken that they should be
pivot mule for it. The necessity of carrying a few germs made good ships of.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to what had
never entered into the heads of those who built her, and, been said by an Hon. Member, in reference to shipwrights'
instead of carrying her engines sufficiently low,she was even apprenticeship, the Board had resolved to pay every attention
more exposed than smaller vessels. Her paddles plunged to that subject also. It had been observed that the whole of
under water forty inches. She was without a single this subject ought to be referred to a Committee of the House
gun on her main deck or on her stern. He was perfectly of Commons. Now, he begged to say, that his impression
assured that if she had been only 500 tons, she would was, that such a Committee would be the very worst authority
M which such a subject could be referred. He could assure the
have bean better than she was at present. As to main-
Gallant Officer and the House that the Admiralty Board would
deck ports, they were not even thought of, and she take up the subject, and bestow upon it all the attention in
plunged most violently when she went to Chatham. He their power, and devote their best energies towards remedy.
would now come to the last ship of all, the Terrible. ing all defects ; and if they. were found to be incompetent
which was built by Mr. Lang. She was a vessel of to do so, then it would be their duty to resign their office to
1,840 tons, and was certainly the best steam-vessel in the Gallant Officer opposite, or to any one else whom the
the navy. After commencing with sharp-bottomed ves- House and the country might deem better fitted to discharge
sels, the Admiralty were obliged to listen to the remon- their duties.—( Hear, hear.) Then, with regard to what had
strances which were made ; and the Surveyor of the been said by the Gallant Officer about sailing-ships ; the Gal-
Navy, who would not listen to any suggestions, instead last Officer could not be more anxious to avoid defects in those
of aeknowledwing at once that sharp bottoms were not thev
salsmaelso,than the navy Board; b
to to those vessels also
seobservations applied as e steam-vessels, namely,
fit for steamers, was gradually but slowly approaching that most of them had been contracted for before the present
to the flat-bottom system. But would the House believe Board came into office.—( Hear, hear.) The present Board
that this large and superior vessel had only twelve guns had no intention to put guns on the main-deck of war-
on the main-deck—six before and six abaft; and though steamers, for if they were fitted up with guns, it would ma-
he admitted that they could put guns in her bows, it terially retard their progress. His impression was that those
would be impossible for any person to work them. She vessels should have their funs to disposed of as to enable
had not a single stern gun on the main deck. He did h teem, when they took their stations, to fire upon the enemy
not know the number of steam-vessels cn the stocks, or with perfect a
impunity.—( Hear.)
LoseHe did not approve of
how far advanced they were ; but vwhatever state they plxttvi
al to
ante
por guns
tthey shouliviesals'kefpotr itt their
were in, it was mush better to pull them to pieces than of
proper work.—(Hear, hear.) The Admiralty were now en-
proceed with them in their present state. The money— gaged in building some iron vessels, and they had made it a
sinethe enormous sums of money—expended in building qua non with the contractors, that each of these vessels
them, might as well be thrown to the winds. If they should have the power of firing two guns on her main-deck
went to war, they would find that steam-boats were no forward, and two aft.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know that
more to the navy than cavalry were to the army. Two it would be necessary for him to detain the House any longer;
cavalry regiments might as well be sent against one an- but, in conclusion, he would say that he knew what the
other for an afternoon's amusement, as two steam- strength of the French navy was, and he knew what that of
boats. Their proper use was harassing the England was, and he was happy to be in a position to state
that the naval force of England was much better and larger
enemy's rear, and how could they do that,
than that ofnotwithstandingallthatsaid
when they had no guns to point at them ?
the t. t
icHear,hear.)
He had seen them all with:his own eyes, and could speak I}ll!ark .
Captain teo S conceived that the navy and the country
of the manner in which they had been designed. The were greatly indebted to the Hon. and Gallant Member who
other use for steam-boats was to cover a retreat. If a had introduced this subject to the House.—( Hear, hear.)
squadron were retrt ating, steam-boats would be found He would also admit that the Hon. Baronet on the Treasury
useful to cover its rear, and if steam-boats were sent in Bench had done good service to the country by upsetting
pursuit vessels of the same construction could best con- the Royal Naval College.—(Hear, hear.) As to what
tend with them, hut how could our steam-boats do so had been said about _vessels built _with _round sterns,
when slier had no guns pointed to the stern. there • appeared to have been at one time a mania
Sir G. COCKBURN—There are. for constituting vessels in that way, and millions of money
Sir C. NAPIER—On the main-deck? were thus expended, and it could not have been more uselessly
Sir G. COCKBURN—was silent. employed He had commanded a corvette, and other vessels, so
Sir C. NAPIER proceeded. He had been told he looked at built, and he could say that not a vessel in the service with a
the state of the navy with a jaundiced eye. Such was not the round stern could fire a stern gun, because the muzzle of
case. He stated bread facts, which, upon inquiry, would be the sun could never be brought sufficiently close to the port.
found perfectly true. On the main-deck, he i epeated, not one. —( Hear, hear.) And yet he felt satisfied that nearly one.
—e Hear, hear.) Let the members of the House of Commons eighth of the national debt had been incurred by building
go down and view them, and they would at once see that the vessels on this defective plan.—( Hear, hear.) Yet the same
guns could not be effectually worked on the main-deck, and if bad system was going on, and the result would be that those
they did not, after a careful inspection, agree with him, he vessels never could go to sea.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
would never again talk about the navy. He was sorry for Member next alluded to abuses existing in the practices of the
having troubled the House at so much length, but felt it his dock. yard officers; for when the Admiralty Board ordered a
duty to do so. All he asked for was a Committee. —( Hear.) report of the defects of a vessel, a sum nearly double that ne-
Had they succeeded in their mode of ship-building ?If not, it cessary was always set forth in the report as that re-
should be charged, and the best ascertained and acted upon ; quisite for the purpose, and the Admiralty had no possible
if they had, why let it be continued. He preferred asking for means of knowing whether it was too much or too little.
a Commission to inquire into the whole system of naval con- He merely mentioned these facts, because he thought no
struction. But gentlemen better acquainted with the rules surveyor ought to be allowed to build models until they had
and customs of the House were of opinion that this was been certified by a scientific man.—( Hear, hear.) Premiums
the more eligible mode, as by making it a money should be given to the gentleman who produced the best model,
question he had more chance of obtaining a Committee. and the field for supplying them thrown open to competition.
He did not care whether it was a Committee or a Commission If they wanted to build steamers, let them go to the builder of
—they were now going to build a large number of steam-boats, the Great Britain, or Mr. Napier, and not confine themselves
and he asked the House not to grant one shilling until the con- to gentlemen brought up in the royal dockyards, whose educe-
dition of the steam navy was fully and thoroughly inquired tion was generally very circumscribed. He had commanded
into. He knew this was not a very palatable subject, though every species of brig-corvette, and he could say, without fear
from the manner in which the House had heard him, he had of contradiction, that none of them were fit to go to sea. They
no reason to think so ; but a sense of dutficompelled him to might be splendid vessels, but really he never could discover any
speak out the whole truth as he found it. e felt satisfied that remarkable beauty about them. What he had been saying for
if the public press had not taken up the question of the state the last ten or twelve years, he was still compelled to repeat, be
of the navy in the manner it had done, it would have been use- it ever so tedious or unpleasant. He had remarked, and every
less for him to have attempted to bring the matter forward. other good seaman who went before him had done the same,
During the last twenty years, he bad repeatedly called the at- that Sir William Symonds' ships were total failures. His first
tention of those in power to the subject ; in fact, he had a larg . vessel was the Flying Fish, and everybody connected with the
book full of correspondence, but up to the present momen the navy was aware of its utter inefficiency for hard ser-
had never been able to get them to listen to a single suggestion vice, or, in fact, service of any sort. Their three-deckers
he had made.—( Hear, hear.) He had met with the greatest were failures, solely because they made them without flat floors.
courtesy from the Gallant Officer opposite. He had no party Yet the Admiralty still persisted is building them without this
feeling on this subject.—( Hear, hear.) He never introduced appendage, an act of which he had often heard it said, no man
his politics into naval inquiries—he was only guided by a sense in his sober senses would be guilty. Sir William Symonds'
of what was due to the public, and only hoped to have the public first frigate, he admitted, was a magnificent ship. She
money advantageously expended. The House ought to grant had some remarkably Eno
.points about her, but
this Committee. He thought they were bound, out of regard she was exceedingly sharp in _the water, and in
for the members of the present naval administration, and for many other respects defective. But perhaps some of Sir
their predecessors, and in justice to the Surveyor of the Navy, Wm. Symonds' friends would say he had introduced improve.
and to the First Lord of the Admiralty, to accede to his mo. ments of late. Now, he was prepared to assert that the Snake,
tion.—( Hear, hear.) It would then be seen whether they had which he built a short time back, was equally as bad a ship—
been libelled or not. Before a Committee he would undertake having the same defects as the Flying Fish, which he built so
to prove every thing he had stated. The Gallant Commodore far back as ten years ago. He was conscious of the defects in
sat down amid much cheering, having again thanked the House theso ships when he held a post in her Majesty's service, but it
for the attention they had given him, and read the motion, would have been a source of great annoyance as well as incon-
which was as follows :—" A Select Committee to inquire into venience to him if he had ventured to speak his mind upon the
the manner in which the money voted since the year 1835 for subject then. The Admiralty appeared to look upon a confes-
the construction of ships has been expended, and if the ships siert of this sort as a personal reflection upon them, and this de-
constructed are an improvement of the old system." terred many of her Majesty's officers from speaking their
Mr. HUME seconded the motion. The Hon. and Gallant minds on the subject. They were identified with Sir William
Officer had challenged inquiry—he (Mr. Hume) thought he Symonds, and no doubt had determined to sink or swim with him.
was entitled to it. He thought the country would not feel Ten years had however elapsed, since the time he spoke of, but
satisfied unless a full and searching inquiry were made. He did little or no change had taken place. Certainly, the Administration
not think, however, the present time was as proper for inquiry had changed,hut their successors had unfortunately been upwards
as on a previous occasion, when those great changes in the of three years making up their minds as to the merits of one
naval condition of the country were made. He thought the of Sir William Symonds' frigates. They had been all this
Right Hon. Baronet opposite had a great deal to answer for. while endeavouring to discover if she was a fast vessel, and yet
On the 29th of June, 1832, the Right Hon. Baronet used an they had not come to any decision. But the cause of this was
expression which had often been quoted, and which was still plain enough. If, when be was in the service, he had been
fresh in his (Mr. Hume's) memory. He said that naval cap- sent out to Malta with a ship, with specific orders to report
tains were more competent to fill the office of surveyors of the upon her sailing upon a magnificent breeze, what would have
navy than any other men, as much as to say that science was of become of him if he had reported unfavOurably ? Why, he
no use in the construction of ships. The present question was would have been plain Mr. Rous at this moment, instead of
one of the greatest importance in a national point of view. The Captain Rous.—(Laughter.) Sir William Symonds' ships
greatest commercial country in the world should have the most had, from this very reason, been described as superior vessels
powerful and effective engines at sea. England was then, and in every respect. He did not wish to be understood as finding
had always been, very backward in the application of science to fault with Sir W. Symonds, because he was quite aware that it
ship-building. So defective was: the construction of ships was by the direction of the Admiralty that he expended
during the war, that we were obliged to imitate millions in the building of these defective ships. Nor was it
the construction of those French. Spanish, and even his fault that the vessels were defective. He was not brought
Swedish and Danish vessels, which we captured. up to the profession of a ship-builder, and was by no means a
Surely it was the British who should have set the example in scientific man. But why could not the Admiralty decide at
ship-building, seeing that not only our maritime and rummer- once upon the merits of the Queen? The answer he had
cial greatness depended upon our naval superiority, but even was, " there is no wind." w What, no wind ?" At one time
our safety.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then he was sure it was plentiful, but now they bad a difficulty of
quoted from the Third Report of the Commissioners appointed finding a good breeze between the West Indies and Lisbon.—
to inquire into the affairs of the navy, which stated that naval (Laughter.) It really was too bad. Here had they been
architecture had advanced to greater perfection, and been more three years trying this model, and still they had not come to a
cherished among the French than among any other people ; decision, nor were they likely to arrive at any in another
that little attention was paid to it in this country; and that the three years. He was as anxious as any one to
French employed men of the greatest talent and ability in the know the truth, and he was confident, if they
construction of ships, whilst we contented ourselves with creep- would give proper directions, a gale of wind would very soon
ing on in the dark, in quest of such discoveries as chance might be found. —( Hear, hear, and laughter.) With respect to the
throw in our way. In consequence of the recommendation of future, what the Admiralty wanted, was an active man like
a Committee, a school for naval architecture was established, Sir W. Symonds, for he certainly was an active man, to in•
but, in 1832, the First Lord of the Admiralty abolished the sped what was going on in the dockyards.—( Hear, hear.)
system, and the greatest injustice had been done to the mem- This would put an end to the present waste and lavish ex-
bers of it, who were never allowed to fill those stations which penditure. Sir William Symonds would be a useful man to
it was originally intended they should fill, and for which their them in this way, but if they allowed him to lay down his
abilities qualified them. They had been taught algebra, lines and build ships upon them, the defects complained of
trigonometry, fluctions, the calculus, and, is short, the whole would never be remedied. Let him lay down other men's
system of mathematics, and were to have entered the most lines if they would, and then there would be a pos-
subordinate offices in the navy, rising gradually to higher sihility of his building an efficient seaworthy vessel.
offices as they merited. Such men would have been acquainted He had little more to remark, but, at all events,
not only with the whole system of naval tactics, but would have whether the Hon. and Gallant Commodore succeeded with his
been able to suggest improvements founded upon motion or not, he was sure it would be productive of great
their scientific and practical knowledge.—( Hear, hear.) public benefit.—(Hear, hear.) He expected it would receive
A great deal of money had been thrown away in remodelling more support from the other side of the House than his.
old ships—it would hare been much cheaper to have built new There was much more public Spirit on the Opposition side, and
ones, than continually tinkering with those built upon an en. the navy had always looked dpon them as their friends in that
tirely different construction. He first thought the Commission House. If, in his warmth, be had given utterance to any
preferable, he would most willingly assent to it, but he would expression calculated to hurt the feelings of any member
at all events second with much pleasure the motion of the of the Board of Admiralty, he could only express
Hon. and Gallant Commodore. his regret for it. He naturally took a great interest
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said his Gallant Friend op- in the subject. He had left the service, because he would not
posits had begun his statement by going so far back as the year countenance the principle which had guided the Board, and he
tBO6. Now it wasnothis (Sir G. Cockburn's) intention to follow need hardly sa -he still felt as deeply on the matter.
him through the whole of that statement, nor would he be able Mr. C. WOOD did not think this discussion would
to do so if he were inclined, neither would he seek to defend be productive of any great advantage to the navy,
certain defects in vessels to which he had alluded. But this nor did he believe an inquiry would produce those
he would beg of the Gallant Officer and the House to remem- beneficial results which some Han. and Gallant Members
ber, that during a great portion of the time of which the Gallant seemed to anticipate. He must say the subject was so en-
Officer had been speaking, the art of ship-building was by no tangled with technicalities that it was quite impossible for the
means so perfect as it had become of late.—( Hear, hear.) He House to comprehend it. It would be quite unintelligible to
could not deny that the class of vessels which the Gallant most Hon. Members, and for th s reason, he could not agree
Officer had found fault with, were of a very bad description.) to the motion. But the Hon. and Gallant Commodore bad
Forty-gun brigs bad since been deemed unworthy; they' advanced little or nothing to 'ustify au inquiry being insti-

W ed. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman related the ex-
perience he had had since 1800 down to 1830, and he con-
demned every class of vessels but the 120 gun-ships as being
utterly useless. The 74 and the 64-gun ships he pronounced
were useless ; the 36 and 28-gun frigates were little better. The
18-gun brigs and 16-gun sloops were defective, and, in fact,
he condemned them all down to the ten-gun sloops. But the
whole and sole object of the attack was Sir William Symonds,
and of course the eight or nine classes of vessels built by that
gentleman were all defective. One Hon. Gentleman, how-
ever, a'lmitted that the Vernon answered perfectly well, and
the twenty-six-gun ships and sixteen-gun brigs were ex-
c,edingly beautiful. All the ships which had been built on
Sir William Symonds' principle, since 1835, had been uni-
versally approved by the officers of the navy. The Hon. and
Gallant Officer (Sir C. Napier) had himself admitted that
there was a considerable difference between the bow of Sir
William Symonds' last ship and that of his first. Why, this
at least proved that he was ready to adopt any improvements
which were calculated to benefit the service.—( Hear.) With
regard to the Queen, the Hon. and Gallant Officer said
that six Queens were laid down by order of the late Board o
Admiralty. He did not Hui( that statement was quite borne
out. This vessel was launched in 1839 ' • and for the first
three years all the reports with regard to her were extremely
favourable. The Hon. and Gallant Officer had made many
assertions on the subject; whether he was warranted or not
in his assertions, he could not say; but the official documents
were so nr, favour of the Queen, that four other vessels of
the same character had been laid down, and though they had
since been stopped, he maintained that the documents justified
the Board in the course which they pursued. With regard to
the Albion, although the Hon. and Gallant Officer said that
she was not able to fire her guns, the report stated that she
was a very stiff ship and sailed better than any other in the
squadron. —( Hear, hear.) The fifty-gun frigate, the
twenty-six.gnn frigate, and the eighty-gun ship had
each received favourable testimony from the Hon. and
Gallant officer himself; and he had read a most favourable
report of the 110-gun ship and the 90-gun ship whilst in the
Mediterranean. Each class had, in fact, received his ap-
proval. Yet, after condemding universally every class of ships
built before 1835, he now called on the House to condemn
the Board of Admiralty for their condust with respect to ships
whose mode of construction had received from him the most
favourable testimony which it was possible for ships to receive.
—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the question of expense, it
certainly appeared to be established that a clear
saving had been effected. He really did not know
on what earthly ground the motion was to be sup-
ported. With regard to the steamers he would only re-
mark that at the time when he (Mr. C. Wood) left the
Admiralty, all the steamers constructed were more or less
experimental. He did not think, in fact, that it was possible
at present for any person to give a clear and decided opinion
either as to the effect which steam navigation would have, or
the best made of arming and constructing steam-vessels.—
( Hear.) Some time must elapse before any opinion could be
formed. The whole system of steam navigation was in a
course of experiment; and feeling confident that no effort
would be spared by the Board of Admiralty to do all that was
necessary for the safety and security of the country in any future
war, he would willingly leave the question in their hands.
Admiral BOWLES said he should not have risen but for
the allusion made to himself by the Hon. and Gallant Officer
who had introduced this subject, and also by the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member for Westminster. The complaint made against
him by these two Hon. Members was, that he did not find a
gale of wind, or stay out to meet it. That he did not find it,
was certainly not his own fault.—( Laughter.) Why he
should stay out at the risk of injuring valuable masts aiad in-
curring a damage of several thousand pounds, merely to have
bad weather, he could not possibly conceive.—(Hear, hear.)
He was surprised to hear old sailors talk in such a manner.
With regard to the Albion, he must say that he believed when
at sea she would not be found to roll more than other
ships of the same elass.—( Hear, hear.) As to her not fight-
ing her guns when other ships would do so, he believed that
any apprehension on that subject would turn out to be un-
founded. As far as it was safe to hazard an opinion with re-
spect to the Queen, he would state that it was his conviction,
that when tried again, after a few alterations, she would be
found a safe and fast-sailing vessel. He could not conclude
without taking that opportunity of reminding the House what
a debt of gratitude they owed to the members of the Yacht
Club, who, having devoted themselves to the truly British
amusement of yacht sailing, had, from their position
and influence, exercised a very beneficial influence
upon the improvement of naval architecture. Two
amongst those gentlemen deserved special honour and
respect. One of them was Lord Vernon, who unhappily had
not survived to witness the benefit of those improvements to
which he had so greatly contributed ; the other was the Duke
of Portland.—( Hear, hear.) Before Sir William Symonds was
allowed to build his first ship, the Columbine, Lord Vernon
actually gave his personal guarantee to the Admiralty that in
the event of failure he would defray the whole expense. He
thought that such persons were well entitled to the gratitude of
the whole country. With respect to Sir William Symonds, he
believed that the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State
for the Home Department never did greater service to the
country than by appointing him to the office which he ao wor-
thily filled; and with whatever calumnies and misrepresentations
he might be assailed, he felt convinced when Sir W. Symonds
retired from office, he would have the proud satisfaction of
knowing that he had contributed, perhaps, more titan any other
officer in the British navy, to the improvement of that branch
of the public service.—( Cheers. )
Capt. PECHELL said that, however good the construction
of the shi,;_ be, still there was reason to complain cf the
mode in which they were tried. He fully concurred in the
praise accorded to Sir Wm. Symonds; but that was altogether
a different question from the one raised by his Honourable
and Gallant Friend. He could not help complaining
that when a ship of the old construction had been im-
proved in her bow, and made a most valuable vessel,
in the last year, she was sent to the Gallant Admiral then in
command on the Irish station, and for nine months she lay in
the Shannon, to assist in the collection of the poor-rates.—
( Laughter. ) He had observed the experiment with great anx-
lay, and the result was that he was convinced of the efficiency
of the Rattler. He hoped that, whatever determination the
Government came to with respect to the employment of the
Arehimedian screw, and the ordinary paddles, they would look
carefully to the experiments that had been made.
Mr. CORRY said, the motion of the Hor.. and Gallant
Officer implied an indirect censure upon the Board of Ad-
miralty, of which, he could assure the House, they were most
undeserving, for to no one branch of their public duties had
they devoted more anxious attention than to the improve-
ments in the construction of our ships of war. When her
Majesty's present Administration entered upon office, they
found nineteen ships-of-the-line building, or ordered to be
built ; and the whole of those ships were upsn the lines of
the Surveyor-General of the Navy. If, therefore, they had
hesitated at continuing the building of those ships, they
must have abandoned altogether the building of the vessels
in course of construction in the dockyards ; and how could
they have justified such a proceeding? It was true that,
at that time, only one of the Surveyor-General's ships had
been at sea—the Vanguard ; but he held in his hand the
highest testimonial: as to her capabilities. In July, 1836,
the Honourable Captain D. P. Bouverie reported that
" on all occasions her working was admirable and sur-
possed our fullest expectations ; and I have no doubt that
she will prove herself to possess every good quality, and that
she is a perfect man-of-war." Captain Martin of the
Caledonia, said, " The Vanguard hauled out of the line just
like a cutter, and went away to windward of the whole squad-
ron, and was six miles on our weather-beam in three hours
and a-half." He (Mr. Corry) was also in possession of other
reports relative to the qualities of the Vanguard, and he be-
lieved it would be admitted that she was a most excellent
man-of-war. Shortly after the present Ministry came into
office, the Queen was commissioned and sent to sea, and in-
structions were given that her qualities should be tested. She
was tried on several occasions, and, on the sth of June, 1842,
Sir Edward Owen wrote—" I have called for the reports of
the qualities of the several ships, and hope to have them for
enclosure in this letter. In the meantime I may say that so
far as my own observations went, no one of the ships, except
the Vanguard, could compete with her Majesty's ship, the
Queen, whether in easiness of motion, or in sailing. She
does not so well answer under low sail, but bears pressing
with her canvass, and answers to it by her power. I have
no difficulty in pronouncing the Queen a ship superior to all
three-deckers, and to most of those with two decks." Captain
Rich, of the Calcutta, also wrote on the 6th of June, 1842 :
___.

brought this subject under the consideration of the House: A
good deal had been said about the building of ships, but it was
much easier to point out objections than to show how they
were to be built. He did not think the Gallant Commodore
would gain the object he had in view, even if his motion were
carried ; but he was of opinion, that there ought to be some in-
quiry into the subject, and that a Commission should be ap-
pointed.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think that the Admiralty
could give, with the other duties they had to perform, sufficient
attention to the subject. He approved of a great deal of what
Sir Wm. Symonds had done, though he had failed in some
things. With regard to the armament of frigates, he thought
it was a fault not to suit the weight of metal to the quantity of
timber. For instance, there were the Winchester, and the
Pique, two frigates now in commission. The former was
of 1.636 tons, and had thirty-six guns of 32-pounders.
The latter was of 1,436 tons, being 200 less than the other,
and she carried 52 guns of a smaller calibre, and any person,
upon referring to the naval history of the country, would see
that where the number of guns and their weight were propor-
tioned to the timber of the vessel, she was more effective than
when that proportion was not kept up. The same was observ-
able with regard to the Carnatic and the Belvidere. The
!'ormer was a 26 -gun ship of 32-pounders, and of WO tons ;
the latter carried 42 guns, making a difference of 16 guns,
while there was only a difference of 35 in the tonnage. He
looked with satisfaction to the efforts which were now making
to increase the naval fore, and steam navigation of the country.
Mr. WAKLEY said that the House ought to be indebted
to his Hon. and Gallant Friend for bringing this motion before
the House. He was entitled to its gratitude, and whether he
failed or not, his labours en this question would entitle him to,
and he would receive the gratitude of, the public. That subs
ject had been discussed almost ever since lie had a seat in the
House, and it was always made a sham question by official
persons on both sides of the House. It was now time that the
subject should be seriously considered, for it was one in which
the public took the greatest possible interest. The navy was
the favourite service of the people of England, and no man
would refuse his share of any reasonable expenses to keep it
in an efficient state. His lien. and Gallant Friend
had shown, in his own and peculiar language, that several ships
had been seriously damaged, but there was one vessel, called
" The Admiralty,"—( Laughter)—which he did not believe
would recover from the damage it had received on this occa-
sion, unless those who manned it made inquiries how so much
money had been wasted in building ships which were declared
to be not fit for service. What had been said by the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Westminster had perfectly astonished him.
He said that ships had been built in the dock-yards, which
cost a tenth—he said it first, and then an eighth—of the
national debt, in building ships which had never gone to sea,
and were never fit to go to sea. He said that that statement
perfectly astonished him, coming as it did from the Hon. and
Gallant Captain, who had rendered such great services to his
country—whose name would be respected wherever it was
known—who always spoke his mind freely, and said what he
thought on every subject to which he gave his attention. The
allegations and arguments he put forward would make their
impression out of doors, whatever might be their effect in that
House; hut he ( Mr. Wakley) was one of those who thought
that the appointment of a Committee was not suitable to the
emergency. He did not think that it would lead to any prac-
tical result, for there were none in that House who understood
the subject except naval officers, and they, perhaps, would
he jealous of each other, and there might be a powerthl firing
of broadsides on each side of the table if they alone were; o
compose the Committee. The Hon. and Gallant Captains aid
he did not believe the Lords of the Admiralty would know one
ship from another, or scarcely a three-decker from a New-
castle collier.—(Laughter.) If that were the care with
respect to Lords of the Admiralty, how much worse with those
who had no connexion with naval matters. The Hon. Gen-
tleman the Secretary to the Admiralty, who had been pro-
meted from a Lord to a Secretary, had sought permission
which he could not very well understand, to
have those things left with them. Why those
things had been left to the Admiralty long enough. The
Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Halifax, got up and spoke in
defence of the existing Board. Why, to be sure he did. He
had been Secretary to the Admiralty himself. There was always
an understanding between the official ins and outs.—
(Laughter.) He did not mean to say that there was any re-
gular compact between them, but the thing was understood.
This subject was too important to be understood to be got rid
of in this way, after the statement made by officers who had ob-
tained so much renown, and whose names were identical with
the glory of this country. When the public understood the
subject, they would require a full, a complete, and a searching
investigation. The Hon. and Gallant Captain had alluded to
the experiments made by the vessels built under Sir William
Symonds, but he omitted to remark that the vessels which he
butt, and were put upon:their trial, had not their full comple-
ment of stores and water, so that the vessels did not draw so
much water as if they had their full complement, and, there-
fore, the experiment was not complete. The First Lord of the
Admiralty addressed the House with regard to steamers, and he
heard, for the first time, that they were to give such enormous
sums for building steam-vessels which were only to carry three
or four guns, two in
,their bows and two in their stern. Was
that to be the case ? Why, supposing such steamers were to
encounter those that had broadsides and guns, what would be
the condition of their steamers?—( Hear.) Such was the idea
which this country had of war-steamers. He had heard a naval
officer state that the application of steam to ships would change
the whole naval tactics of this country. The Hon. Gentleman
on the other side of the House had laid great stress on what
had been said by a foreign Admiral. Why, was it not
natural that he should wish to increase the naval power of
his own country? It was of course his object to make the
naval power of this country appear as small as possible.—
( Laughter, and cries of " No, no.") He looked through the
large end of the telescope, and saw our navy as small as he
could.—(Laughter.) Yes, he looked through the large end of
the telescope, and saw the navy of this country under the
smallest aspect possible.—( Laughter, and cries of " That is not
what you mean.") He looked through the large end, and saw
our navy as small as he could.—( Continued laughter, and
cries of " Try back.") He begged pardon; Hon. Gentlemen
were right, and he was wrong. What he meant to say was,
that the foreign officer saw the navy of this country in its real
magnitude ; but he misrepresented its powet in his own
country. He represented it as much as possible—
making it appear larger than it really was, in order
to induce his own country to exhibit all their national
energy—te make exertions so as to compete with
this country in the time of war. Now, he could place no re-
liance on such a statement, but it was the duty, the especial
duty of Englishmen, to look to that force, which must be their
security and the great pillar of their protection. —( Hear, hear.)
Was it not an alarming fact that such large ships had been
built at such an enormous cost, and such large sums of money
squandered at a time, while it was stated by the Gallant
Officer, they were not fit to encounter the " raging sea?" Was
it not monstrous that they should have proceeded in this way for
so long a period ? Something, he admitted, was done, but
they had gone indeed but a small way in the right road. His
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) alluded
to the aid of science in such a service as the navy,
and he regretted that the school of naval architecture,
which was so well calculated to educate persons for that parti-
cular purpose, had been destroyed. They had now no such
school while they were to be found throughout the Continent.
Considering how the country was situated, he was of opinion,
as one of the public as well as a Member of that House, that
hat there ought to be a searching inquiry into the state of
the navy, and that there should be a close investigation,
which he thought could be best made by a Royal Commis-
sion, composed of experienced persons, for the discharge of
whose duties the Executive Government would be responsible.
He should therefore advise his Hon. and Gallant Friend
to withdraw his motion, because he was afraid if he pursued it
to a division many persons would be placed in an unfavour-
able light out of doors, who, though they were of opinion that
the inquiry was necessary, might yet vote against the motion
of his Hon. and Gallant Friend, because, if carried, it would
lead to no practical result. He might then give notice of a
motion for an address to the Crown, to appoint a Commission
for the purpose intended by the motion now before the House.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER replied he had often heard the
remark that such and such a person was good in debate, but he
had never heard that a good debater had recourse to perverting
the language of persons who spoke before him, and he had no
hesitation in saying that the Hon. Member for Halifax had
most completely perverted his language. The Hon. Gentleman
said that he had condemned every class of ships built by other
builders except the large class of three-deckers and the eigh-
teen-gun brigs. Now he most distinctly denied that. He said
that all the three-decked ships except the ninety-eights and the
nineties were good, that all the seventy-fours, the eighty-fours,
and the eighties, were good, and even down to the sixty-fours,
with the exception of the " forty-thieves ;" that the thirty-twos
and twenty-twos were also good, but that the twenty-eight-
gun donkeys, and the ten-gun brigs were good for no•
thing. He was, therefore, surprised that the Hon. Gentleman
put words into his mouth which he had never used. The Gal-
lant Officer at the head of the Admiralty had also misunder-
stood him. He seemed to think that he was of opinion that the
forty-thieves were in good condition,and that they ought not to
have been cut down. Now he was just of the contrary opinion,
for he thought the Gallant Officer had a perfect right to cut
them down. The Gallant Officer had said that he had opened
competition ; now he (Sir Charles Napier) must beg
to differ with him upon that point, for he was
satisfied that if the navy had been thrown open to
public competition some years ago, hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of pounds would have been saved to the country.
He considered that the Gallant Officer had so many duties
now thrown upon him, that be would not be able to perform
them all if he were eat in a dozen pieces. The Queen's yacht
was a most imperfect vessel ; it could not be steered to
within four or five points; and during the time her Majesty
was on beard, she was not allowed to go more than six
knots an hour; she was in fact, at the present moment, under-
going the same operations that the vessel called the Queen
had undergone. There was not a single steam-boat in the
possession of the Government that was worthy of the navy.
He hoped they would come to a good steam-navy at last. The
Gallant Officer opposite appeared to think that he was rather
severe upon him ; he could assure him that he did not intend
to be so. He would not trouble the House further, but he
felt bound to say that unless the Government would cause some
inquiry to be made on the subject, he must divide the House
upon his motion.
Mr. C. WOOD could assure the Hon. and Gallant Officer
that it was not his intention to pervert the meaning of any-
thing he had stated.

With respect to the comparison between this ship and the
Queen, there can be no doubt, in my opinion, as to the supe-
riority of the latter in every point, namely, in sailing, working,
stability, and weatherly qualities." This opinion he con-
sidered the more valuable as being given by the commander of
a vessel which was placed in competition with the Queen ;
and the House was well aware of the pride which naval officers
generally felt in the qualities of their own ships. He (Mr.
C,orry) had in his possession various other reports in
which equally favourable opinions were given of the powers
and capabilities of the Queen. On the ether hand, the
Admiralty had no reports which would have justified them
in suspending the building of the other vessels which were
then in course of construction by the Surveyor-General
But when the squadron commanded by his Hon. and Gallant.
Friend behind him went to sea, the Admiralty did not wait
to be reminded of their duty, but they at once ordered the
construction of the ships of the Queen class and of the Albion
class to be suspended, until the qualities of the Queen and the
Albion had been efficiently tested ; and he hoped that, in the
ensuing spring, ample opportunity would be afforded for ascer-
taining the powers and qualities of those ships. During the
three years her Majesty's present advisers had been in office,
they had ordered sixty-eight ships of various classes to be
built, and of that number only twenty-nine were built under
the direction of the Surveyor of the Navy, the remaining thirty-
, nine being built on the plans of other parties. They had now
in progress four ships of the line, six frigates, six smaller
vessels, and twenty-three steamers, not by the Surveyor of
the Navy. The Admiralty were most anxious to avail
themselves of all the talent and experience to which they could
have recouse, for the improvement of our steam navy.
( Hear, hear.) He might observe that among these vessels
which had been recently built, not by the Surveyor of the
Navy, were four of the brigs which formed'part of the late ex-
perimental brig squadron ; and the result of that experiment
had established the advantages of the new over the old method
of shipbuilding, for every one of the new brigs had proved
greatly superior to the cruizer. But the motion of the Hon.
and Gallant Commodore had special reference to steam-ves-
sels ; and he believed the Hon. and Gallant Officer had stated
that we had not one steam-ship of any character in our navy.
The Hon. and Gallant Commodore must excuse him (Mr.
Corry) as a civilian, for differing with him in opinion on this
subject ; and he must beg the House to bear in mind thet
nautical gentlemen were not quite unanimous in their
opinions on the question, especially as to the construction
of ships of war. The Hon. and Gallant Member (Sir
Charles Napier) had stated that the French war-steamers were
greatly superior to ours. [ Sir C. Napier here made an ob.
servation across the table.) At all events, if the Hon. and
Gallant Officer had not said so to-night, he had made the
statement in private conversation. But the House would re-
collect that a paper appeared last year, which was attributed
to an Illustrious and Gallant Admiral of the French navy,
and in which the following passage occurred :—" When the
Gorgon and Cyclops sailed from the ports of England, we
were struck with their force as ships of war as well as with
their admirable qualities as sea boats ; and we therefore
evinced a laudable anxiety to procure designs and other
data required for the reinforcement of our navy with
vessels of a similar description. The attempt proved a
complete failure, and there are not now in the whole French
navy six steam-vessels that can be compared with those in
the English navy. To form a notion of the actual force of this
steam navy (the English) it is necessary to have observed
how formidable is its armament, and with what care and skil-
.

Sirangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared--
For the motion
Against it . . ,

32
93

Majority against the motion
Mr. CHARLES HOPE obtained leave to bring in a 13111
for enabling the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital to im-
prove a certain lane or street called Fisher-lane, in the parish
of Greenwich, in the county of Kent, and for other purposes.
Mr. CHARLES HOPE also moved for leave to bring in a
Bill for enabling the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital
for
grant leases of coals and minerals for forty-two years, ando Ito
making a railway or tram-road from Greenwich colliery
Berwick-bridge.
Mr. HUME objected to the Bill.
Mr. HODSON HINDE entertained great objections to the
Bill. Bill. He was sure if its provisions wer.e
wwans welland
appre-
ciated ciated it would never be brought forward
that Greenwich Hospital held large in the north ofpon-Tweed, had under
re
England, one of which, near N
er
it some valuable seams of coals. These mines had been worked
at a c. eons'',l Table loss, e
but if a better communication could be
obtained between those mines and the.port of London, that which
had hitherto been a losing speculation wouli become a most
profitable one.
He had no objection to the parties obtaining
the best access to a shipping place, but they were not entitled
to „ma to that House and call upon it to grant
them powers to make a railway, not for public
purposes, but for the interest of private individuals.
If he was correctly informed, every individual landowner
along the line was opposed to it ; the lords of the manor, the
Corporation of Berwick, and the Harbour Commissioners
were opposed to it, as injurious to the trade of the port. The
compuisory Powers sought by this Bill would enable the House
to lay down this railway along the side of a public highway for
a considerable distance. He did not think that the Commis-
sioners of the Hospital themselves were quite aware of the na-
ture of the Bill ; too much power and influence in such
matters was often given to solicitors and others connected with
stieh institutions. He was confident that if the Government
had been informed of the nature of the Bill it would never
have been brought forward, and he trusted the statements

ful foresight everything has been studied. The English war
steamers have not been built and warranted good for all de-
scriptions of service indiscriminately. In building them there
has been but one thought, one object—war. They unite great
speed and a powerful armament, with vast accommodation for
troops." He (Mr. Corry) did not mean to say that we had
attained anything like perfection in the construction of steam-
boats; but he believed that every new steamer launched exhi-
bited some improvements. A Gallant Officer opposite had re-
ferred to the long detention of the Rattler at Woolwich ; but
he (Mr. Corry) was convinced that the experiments made upon
that vessel had gone very far to test the merits of the screw.
He must say that be thought all questions relative to the con.
struction of our ships of war might safely be :eft in the hands
of those who were constitutionally responsible for the conduct
of naval affairs—( Hear, hear)—and he therefore felt it his
duty to oppoe the motion of the Hon. and Gallant Officer
Capt. HARRIS thought it was his duty, as a member of. the
naval profession ,to thank the Gallant Commodore for haying

against it would be inquired into by the Board of
Having made these observations he should not think it his
duty to take the sense of the House on the question.
Mr. FOSTER quite agreed with the observations of the
lion. Nember_opposite. lie was sure that if the measure had