The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-07 00:00:00

NAPLES.

Sir R WILSON trishcrWr put qnestion to the Noble
Lord opposite, omen a. subject of eVelt,itai ional importance.
He could assure the Noble Lord and the notice, that in putting •
this question to the Noble'Lot (1, he was actuated by nu hostile
feelings to the Family of Naples ; for the maxim, pro Rege ct
Patric, teas one which, in his opinion, ought to he ph‘ei red by
a W r
nation &iggling fo constitutional free doer. He begged to
call the Neible Loro's attention to a parogiaph a L'etter from
Sir W. A'Court to the Duke de (alto, dated Naples, Feb. I I,
wh;ch had appeared in the pub;ijc. Patiers. It stated, that the
English Government would intrsfere in no way with the affairs
of Naples, unless such interfrrrnee should be rendered Indis-
pensable Sty anr perSonal insult or da,,,or to which the Royal
Family might lec,expoied. 'Snell being th'e language of the
British inist er's official Note, 'he wished to ask' t he Noble
Loi'd, under what eircumstrincei the neutrality of England
teas to be Violated; and "whether,'in the event of the Neapoli-
tans deeming it necessary to tahe any Mehsures against Their
Sorerenefl, that neutrality tries to be entirely broken, and this
country to become fort liwi• h an active and zealous Tilly of the
Holy Fraternity ?.Such was, Ce1t:6105., the necessary infvf.
enee, if the Nobie Lord kauctioned the let los of the Letter. •
Lord CASTLEItEAGH said, tire only observation wb•ich
he felt it necessary to tnal.;e on this OCl:aritllt was, !him if the
Honourable Member thought fit to call for t protinction of
any document, it was competent to him to move for them,
and to state to the- Honse'the grounds of his motion.
Sir it. WILSON de:tinted nutking any motion.
REPEAL. OF THE
.HOU.S.F. ANt.) vViNDow DUTIES.
Mr. MAaERLY rose to bring forward the mo- .
tiotr; of which he had given notice,.for the Re-
peal of the DUties- on Inhabited. Houses and
Windows. afraid, he said, that in .addi-
lion to the difficulty and importance of
.the sub-
ject which he'.was about to bring under the con-
sideration of the House, he rose under some
disadvantage, because' it might be supposed by
sonic Gentlemen to. interfere with another sub-
ject; the. importance of. whivh he wag perfectly
ready to admit. He iouldn-ssurethe Hon.Mem-
hers for Suffolk, Kent, and Surrey,: that he had_
framed his motion with a view to the relief of the
agricultural distresses and, he. trusted he should
have their concurrence in the. measure which he
was about to propose. He feared he should be
under the necessity of .tresPassing more upon. the
indulgence of the House than: he could wish, for
the subject was one which necessarily involVed a.'
great deal of detail. It was not hisintention to
call upon his Majesty's Ministets for the repeal
of those or any other duties, without offering. a
provision as an equivalent, and the provision
which, he contended, was 'capable of being'suc-
cessfully administered, was economy., He trusted
he should satisfy the House .before he sat down
that economy might be enforced to a much
greater extent than had been hitherto attempted;
and that by a vigorous and practical application
of it, the public expenditure might be reduced to
the amount of at least 3,000,0001. He supposed
he should be met on the other side by the usual
statement, namely,_ that. his plan..was imprac-
ticable—that the thing could not be. done ;
but if this was the ouly• answer he was to
receive,' it was high time that his Majesty's
Ministers should resign the Government 'of
the 'country
_to those who were ready. to take
it with the responsibility of conducting the
affairs of the .country upon a reduced scale of
expenditure. He bad always
_thought that the
very basts---of was economy, and this
was a principle, the application of which was
more especially called for, at a time when •the
country was labouring under the pressure of an
enormous funded and unfunded dela. Whatever
remedy was applied to the existing financial em-1
barrassments, we were bound to preserve the
national faith which had been pledged to the
public creditor. 'Whether the public debt had
been contracted in. one currency or another, was
of no importance ; it had been fairly and openly
:contracted; and 'we were hound to keep our faith
and pay- the interest of it as long as we were
able. It was admitted on all hands, that the
distresses which pressed upon every-class of so-
ciety, :called loudly for some species- of Parlia-
mentary relief. It -Was absolutely impossible
that the people could continue, to pay the same
• amount of taxes under the burthen-ofwhich they
were now suffering,—.Both the agricultural and
the trading. claSses were now actually. p. wing
taxes and rent out -of their capital, and not out of
any profit which they derived from their property
r or trade. Under such circumstances, the House
!. was bound-to take-into its.most serious considera-
tion, whether, by the-application of a system of
economy to the public expenditure, some degree
.of relief might not be afforded to the distresses
of the people ? Before en.tering . upon the itnme-
.
diate.subject of'his motion, it Would--be necessary.
f for bliss to gointo some detail, not ouly-as to the
.present state of the fin'ances, but as they existed
f at a for Mer period. The period which he had

selected was the year .I7A, because in that year
there had been a cessation of war long enough to
enable. Mr. Pitt to bring down his budget, as for
a year ofTeace. I n the last yoar,,no part of the
public debt could-be reft-rred to. watekpenditure ;
these twOpariods therefore might be fairly carripar.
ed. The tlon.Membertheul tool; a cmnparative view
of the income and expenditure of the country in
the last year, and in the year 1792, and entered
into an elaborate statement,. for, the numerical
details of which we refer the reader to another
part of our paper. The lion. Member stated,

hat the reg;ori of his having selected these tw•o

years was, that the finances were on both on a peace
establishment, some years. after the conclusion of
any war, and therefore the circumstances in which
the nation was placed at both- periodi being so
similar, trite compariSon ought to have more
weight. In accounting for his"statiug the Un-
funded Debt at 46 millions instead of 31, he said
that there were 8,806,5591. not included in the
returns of :the outstanding Exchequer Bills not
provided for, I%hich formed part of the Unfunded
Debt, and which ought to, be added to the, 31
Millions outstanding and unprovided for on the
sth of January. To theSe Were to be added the
5,600,000/. on the -Sinking Fund", whiCh Made
the stiff) total of Unfunded Debt forty-six mil-
lions ; with respect to the five millions on the
S•inking-Fund of 1821, it was fair to estimate it
in this way; for if the Right Hon. Gentleman
arose to retire, his successor -Would expect to
find that debt. without charge, but-he had taken
the Sinking fund by inticipation. In -remarling
upon "the vast difference of 19 million, which
existed between the expencea of governing the
country at the two periods of 1792 and IS2O, lie
obseerved to the Right Ron. Gentleman that there

were some items of expence which might be set
off; and which had not been included in, his
statement for the former period, but they could

not account for such a difference as nineteen
millions: -He knew that it would be said, that in
the course .of ,a long and expensive war, cor es-
tablishrnents had been necesarily increased ; he
knew this, and believed it to be difficult to cut
them down, but it did not follow, that when the
country was, so greatly distressed,, they ought
not to be cut down.L-(Hear, hear I)—The Go-
vernment said it must keep faith, and .protect
the national honour ; true--but if it. was neces-
sary at any time, and expedient to put the -cowl,
try in a state of war, it should be enabled to
gait► its strength and confidence by a wise econ-
omy during the Continuance of pea Ce. It could
not recover the capabilities of Which
_a• lavish ex-
penditure had deprived it by,increased taxation;
that could only still surther enfeeble its resources
and reduce its crippled powers to a state of More.
desperate exhaustion. Its only refuge and hope,
whether it was intended with more security, and
would rise in the grandeur of its former power

among the nations, was determinedl.rigourous,
unsparing economy.—(Hear, hear then
went on to show that a large saving might be
made in the Customs and Excise, as he looked
upon tlu per centage of collecting as improperly
high. He knew he would be told, that Commis-
sioners had been named for the purpose of inqur-
ing into those subjects, and he was willing to be-
lieve those Commissioners would, discharge their

duty with zeal and tidPiity ; bat Chen iC Fhould
lie recollected, that the Commission was app intett
not for purposes of reduction, but of replation.
lie would gii-e them credit for making, somo

little reductions, but
,not in the way that
the country required, and that the situation in
whiCh we
,stood made it imperative. As the
Customs had fallen off, how was the misfortune
to be repaired' The only remedy was saying,
there was no other way of meeting a diminished
income but by 'a restricted expenditure."--(Hear,
hear, hear.)--L-Besides, the Commission was no=.
minuted by the Crown ; it was not appointed by
the House, and, consequently, the instructiow
upon Which it acted. were not such as it would
have received had it emanated from the Repre-
sentatives,of the People.----(Hear, hear.)—ln re-
ferebce to his Sixth Statement, lie said, 'that ti
-Finance Committee had 'been appointed by the
House, and had made a Report in 1817 on the
charges estimated for the governing of the coun-
try in 1818. • He adverted to the words of the.

Fourth Report of that Cominitteca, as contained

in the statement, where it was said that other
expences.might arise, but then there could. 'be
reductions made at least equivalent to thetn.—:
After having gone into :the comparison between'
the expellees of the last year and that in the Re-
port of the Committee in 1817, he.proceeded to
say, that-the chancellor of the Excheqtler had
spontaneoufly brought down a Resolution of
economy and retrenchment to 'the • House in
1819. His the'ory of economy might be seen
from that Resolution ; the facts before the House
and the country would enable them to judge of
his practice.--(Hear, hear.) ..--There was a strong
and imperious reason why Parliament f.hould
proceed immediately to make the necessary re-
trenchments ; it was that by so doing some ye-
lief would be • afforded to the numerous classt>s
of distressed Petitioners, whose complaints were
daily heard in that House and resounded through
the. country. It
.was a duty of humanity, jus-
tice, and ,prudence, to Which they were equally
bound, as men, as citizens, and as legislators.
What hope could the country have of any. sin-

cerityliu the repealed professions of retrench-
ment, if the Estimates of 1821 were not'lopt lie-
low those of 1817 ? But the Right Honourable
Gentleman had given no credit for the reduc-
tion of the prices in the necessaries and conveni-
encies of life, but proceeded in expenditure on the
same rate as if they had not been at all depressed.
Tlds was not fail% There were, he knew, alloW-
ances that must remain fixed, but then there were
many, articles which Government had to pur-
chase, Which had fallen 25 or 30 per cent. If
Government. then went on as if no such depres-
sion of prices had taken place, it was evidently,
in that point of view,
,spending, more than it
had any right to .spend. There must be. a con-
siderable ving, for instance, in the articles
of iron, tiMber, hemp, 4c. for they had all
been considerably ditniniibed in P!ice. On.
this account alone, at least one 'million Ought to be
saved, and by a practicable reduction of the
pence of collecting the revenue, another aiilliv

might .be saved. After some further obseriva.
tions of the same nature, the •1 on Member went
on to shew that the expenct o the taxes was
excessive. Be considered the income .on which
the Property Tax had been assessed to be about
150 millions, orat least 120, out of which there
was to he taken 4.5. Per cent. on the gross taxes,
of which 2.2 per cent. was on the direct taxes,
and 23 per cent. on theinterest of the National
Debt ; but it was-impossible to follow the re-
'sults of the indirect luxes through all their rami-
fications. On the 23 per cell t.or the interest pf the -
Debt no reduction could -be made„'and therefore
all, the reduction should take place on the (.22 per
cent. -Jie ; then entered: into:a view of 'the state
of the Ag.riculturists, and said, that in agricul-
ture it was not the consumer but the grower that
paid the taxes : for the price.of corn now, when
the expenditure of the country was so. high, was
the same with that of 179, when the expendie-
ture was lowest. rl'ltris the farmer sold his bushel
of corn at the price now which he did then, !it
had a very different quantity of taxatitm to dis-
charge. He had, in fact, with his unimproved"
resources, to bear the gradual increase of rent
and taxation for the, last thirty years, and thus •
that increased• taxation must be 'paid out of, his
capital.—(llear !)—lle was net one of those who
thought that it would be right to remove a.
burden from one class of
.the community to place
it on another he would not, therefore,. propose
that the farmer should he relieved at the expencat
'of the manufacturer or fundledder ; the only:re-
lief for all was in ecoiomv, and not by break-
ing faith with the public creditor.--(llear!)--e-
Ws debt had the security of a national bond, ;lint
such an obligation was not to be rOrfeited. The •
nation that . did it would pay a feaff)ll peDaliv, •
the -violatiOn of its faith could sOt eud iu
danger- and dishonour. Ile had heard trdoctrioe •
stated in that House by many from whom, he was
sorry to hear it ; lie hoped that nothing but hank- ,
ruptcy or inevitable ruin would ever realiie it.
and such events.might, by the prerattLimt of a
due system of retrenchment, be averted.. lie
was sure that the fundholder did not wish fo se&
the. other classes of the comnmity too severely
_ .
pressed upon ;•. it was not fus wish to have an ad •
flitional million as Security, it bestisecnrity as
inn satisfisnipeople.---(Ciseers.)—He hived tl'at
night his Resolutions would he supported'bv alt
those ieterests, who wished ,veil to.the com Mort
cause of the country—by the fendholder, whose
security he would have strengthened—by the
agriculturist, whose taxes he would haVeredrickt
—and by all men of all parties, who wished to
save. their country )y the only practicablenteans,
namely, economy and conciliation, 'which alone:
could give internal security and repel foreign.
aggression.--e(Chetrs.)—The Hon.-Meddler the.o
`moved-
-6'l hat the Fjntrtee rotnmittce Pm:minted by this tintr‘ei.
having Mated in their 4th Report., on the sth of June, t 517,
that the Estimates for the Supply of the Year 1818, wero. Hs
follow:—?'or the Army 3,500,000 L ; the Nai'y 6,900,000 i.;
the Ordnance 1,1 50,0001. and the Miseel la neon% ; •
making a to'al id- 17,359,0;7;01., and that the Surp'les fin. the -.
Year 150 sxceeded It.ose,foT sl,s-hr thy sum of 1,9a3,:?001.;.
it i. theri•fore expedient that the supplies fur 1840 should not
exceed th,isr for fhe fortni:r.sear."
The Hon. Member stated that it Was his inteise
tion to propose following.up the resolutiOn
motion for a reduction of 50 per cent. upon all
Duties on Inhabited liotisev and lifintiOt.t*, frjru
and after the 50 .91.- January nest ; thus giving tt
year's intervention before the change cool&
operate. . .

The CIiANCELLQII of the Ex..rariotrEß
menced by.sayiitg, that he wont,' confine himself.
to the leading topics the lion. Member,
had 'mentioned iri his e_neral view of the finances .
of the country. —lle was net prepa'rek nor ;n-
-deed was it necesSary3 to follow him through La
his statetn.i.nts, rnoreespecially. as his motion,did
notof necessity give occasion to those statement`!
It was worthy of remark, that the subject or that
motion was the taking off one-half of the ditties
on inhabited houses and windows; yet almost
the .only topic of finance front WilliCh he had re-
frained (hiring the whole cOurse-b:Lhis speech;
Was the • tax on windOws::---(llearl, hear! on the
Benehes.)-Ife had indeed •gene into .
aver' laborious and extensive investigation of the •
finances of the country, under the ditferent he;:ds •
and as far as was -nec?ssdrY be would follow bitn,
and endeavour ti she either.tvlieic his • st.te-
rnents were incorrect or his inferences unfair%
lie had rested his arguments Mainly on the tie-
cessity of having founded them upon the girt ,
Iditference •between the expendiftire of tho
country at different periods. In pursuance -or
this plan, lie had contrasted the expenses
the year- 1702 with• those of 100; but the
House ought to recollec.t, , that the
merits of the year 1792 were' the loWest that
-the country had experienced Siii.Z.-e" the Ameri-
can war, and in fact the votes of supplies fir
that year were never aCtnally'realized on that ac-
count. M. Pitt found it necessary tO'elth:ri,e the
expenditure beyorrd what bad beco -oXed for that
year ; and before the • clo'se of it-'.au .angmenta;-
tion,was found to he indispettsible-----(seme Men- •
bers on the QppOsiCion 'Benches said it was the:
commencement of a war) ;---certainiy part of Citi/.
additional income. was 'di-sposed of in prepara-
tions for a new War, but not all. flowerer, sup-
posing even the .vote-of •supplies for the year t,-`.2. •
had been realized, still the Honourable Oentle-•
man should in fairness- make some deductioiu.
from the expentrature of the last year, which
could not affect the expenditure of the year 9'2-
lie had contrasted the sum total of 7,71.1,QW1,:.
belonging to that year, with tile sum total cat
19,313,0001. of tht. last One—[Here Mr. Maberly
said; across the Table, that he made the latter
sum twenty six-millions in his view of finance-
-7 (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thottO!';
that it would be More for the' sake of clearller
and accuracy to set aside that six millions for 'e •
present, ialuding the .xpetices-of•collectingl &" •
and contrast the actual expenditure of both 1)"
riods, Even i r that tvero the. case, it,was ueces-
sai-y, hi order to come to a just conclusion, to de
duct frdm the expences of 1820011e-whole of the.•
heavy; pension establishment in the Naval anci,
Military Services, _&e. whielthad beets incurred.
by the late war, and which would leave the•
19,313,000/.- less by 5,000,0004; as no soch de-.
iduutic2ti,mtuh.esttpsetitosibbiei
ernstandbelionzit:tieatetxhPaerittFeLt.

r

atnoUpting to half a million.. After striking.oir
those five Millions. from the one, and deducting
the half million from the-other sum, there would
remain upwards of 14 millions, or double the sum
total of expenditure of the last year, compared
with the
.Year 1792. But that difference could
be.easily accounted -for. The very successes:of
our army in the late war had helped to create
the necessity for that difference ' •1- ife had
19 additional colonies 'to defend, :besides,
the establishments in the year 1792 hav-
ing been confessedly on so low a scale, that they,
were insufficient for the national honour and
security.—e(Hear!)—He never heard this come
troverted, and so convinced was, he of the fact,
that he was one-of those who would never un-
dertake to manage the public affairs on such a
scale orexpence, with respect to both our inter-
nal dominion and external , possessions, as that
acted upon, in
,the year before mentioned. .The
additional charges on the expellee of defending'
nineteen new colonies had not
,been. accounted
for. by the Hen. Member, tholigh they greatly,
'helped to produce that differetiee in the expences
of the two contrasted periods, -on which he bad
laid so much- sfreS's.. But all this would come'
before the_ view of the House in a few days,
when the /..rmy.Estimates passed under its in-
spection. The Hon. MeMber mistook the time
We el he ought to have brought forward this
question._ His time for proposing a reduction of
taxes, should properly have beenafter receiving
the Report of the Committee.of Supply, touch-
lug the whole expenditure. BUt the Hon. Gen-
tleman had begun at the wrong end.—(A laugh'.)
—He had :assumed, without proof, the capabi-
litY of redUCtioii, and then argued as if the dimi-
illation of expence had been,a demonstrated pro-
position, :Whether or not the charge of manage-
ment could be lessened would be seen shortly,
`diets the annual votes came under the consi-
deration of the House ; but at .all events the
charges included under the general head. of
I\i'ational GoVerninent, which, consisted in mi-
litary and naval pensions, were not too liberal.
hey were worthily applied; andlad been dearly
earned. The national himour and, the national
gratitude were 'pledged upon,:thein-e-they had
arisen as much out of the war as the national
tlebt itself. They were the 'grateful return made
bY a .generous people, forthe mernorable achieve-
Meats of such days as those of Trafalgar and
Waterloo. They were the price which we paid
for the deliverance, of Europe, and the protection
.°1 the character and honour of the British Em-
Pirt'•—(Hear, hear !)--elie Was not one of those
who would grumble at the payment, for never
Was there expence incurred for a nobler equiva-
!ent• Another point which the Hon. Gentleman
load insisted upon was, that the reduction in
Price of many of the necessaries of life ought to
have occasioned a corresponding depression- of
our expenditure ; but -he forgot that thesafiXed
allowances Could not be altered: so asito increase,
Or diminish with the rise and-fall of the prices of
Provisions ; and the articles, the prices of .which
might at all affect the expenditure, could not,
in a time of peace, form more than a very
small part of ths3 national expence. . The
Honooral-!te iMenibt,r had not confined his view
tt)..Lir.e comparative state of the Finances of 1792
411;!. 1820. lie had entered into the. considera-
tion of another Estimate, namely, that of 1817,
57'1. in that view contended for the-practicability
0
t great saying in the present year. would-be
e" What saving was practicable when the-Esti-
l:44's for the
.present year w, ere laid on the table.
(the Chancellor of the was satis-
fied that those Estimates would be found to corn-
Prise a reduction considerably exceeding one
eompared 'with the expellees of last year.
!)----Whether that saving reedited
°r not the Report-of _the Committee of 1817, he
'"is convinced that -some of. Friends
Dear him could give distinct and decisive reasons
for every article ,of expence in their several de-
Partments, when those papers,-came before the
liouse. :But certainly. the aggregate of saving
\you'd amount tnniuch more than a million, and
if in any instance an excess bad occurred, it
would be . accbnuted for. -It appeared to him
that the Hon. Member had taken an erroneous
l'iew of the Property-Tax: He had: stated, the
i°corne. on which that Tax was assessed-at 150
but.bpthe Returns made to ,that House,
it appeared to have been assessed on an income
c'xceeding 200 millions, besides there was a great
Part of the 'income of the country.which did not
dome within the vier- -of that. Tax. The whole of
the Property. Tax as charged. clear of the
theorne arising from labour, was a considerable
Part of the national income. On the state-
anent of the 'Honourable Gentleman himself,
"r income bore as large a
.proportion to-our ex-
-iPenditure as ever. 'The Ironourable Member al-
°wed that the country ought not to be relieved
1
any breath of faith with the.publie creditor.
I) that sentiment he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
, 49uer) perfectly coincided. Ile was perfectly
irvinced that the best relief for the distresses of
10 country was to be sought obt.in measures
'"-dculeted to violate the public faith and to di-
tile public credit, but in' measures by
which the public faith:should be assured-and the
Public credit tnaintabied. With reference to the
Proposition of the Ilonou'rable"Geotleman, viz.
to diminish the House and Window Tax, it vas
not inapposite to observe, that a very small pro-
portion 'of that particular Tax Was 'paid by the
aterieulturists.- A very consiAerable2 number of
them did not pay the tax at- all. It was a tax;
however, -most, important to the - Revenue, the
Produce beink no less than ,600,0001. So
awere. indeed', was- tbe Hon. Gentleman'
self of its hurrortanee, that he proposed to take
only- part of it; Undotibtedly that would
afford considerable -relief to many. per Sons ; but
that relief woUld.not be at_ all in proportion to
theimblic injury.- As to the dirninution of the
expeeee of collecting, the fact was, that. the
-collection of- half • the sum would not cost
much less than the 'collection of -the whole.—
Of all the taxes this wits -the Most, ecOnoinically
collected. A larger portion of it came to the
public treasury than of any ether: 'lt ought
likewise to be *considered that a considerable
proportion oett was paid • by the higher classs,
selling as a sort of compensation for the Property

Tax. It iras,a great rent;,: Money Tax, and if it
were taken otf there would hardly be any great
ready money Tax. Many of the observations
made by the Hon. Gentleman on the cha-rge of
collecting the revenue were fallaciotp. At the
same time he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
did not.d.env that some redo:A.lon might bemade

in the ekpe7nce of colleetion. in fact; various
reductioris Were In progress, aril the subject was,
as the Hon. Gentleman allowed, in the hands of
a Committee of Gentlemen of exemplary
and diligenCe. The lion. Gen-
tleman had talked .of the advantages that would
result. to the country from having an administra-
tion that would conduct the public affairs econo-
mically. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman
that he and his colleagues
,were most anxious to
conduct the public affairs with as much economy
as possible. When another Administration was
found capable of conducting the affairs of the coun-
try. with more. economy, and iu whom Parliament
would be disposed to confide, they were quite
prepared to relinquish their seats ; but until
then it was, ;a their opinion, of little public ad-
vantage to repeat declarations of the necessitv
of public economy. Undoubtedly there would
never be wanting political ,charlatansliear,
and a laugh)—who would undertake to manage
the affairs of the State at the smallest possible
exPerice: No doubt, if the' Hon. Gentleman
were to manage thern on the terms which he had
described, -there would be others----'some Hunts
or CarlileS—who would propose to manage the
country still more economically' than the Whigs.
However, there would be future occasions, when
the Estimates would be before the House, and
when the Iron. Gentleman tnight, with more ad-
vantage, propose any reduction of taxes that he
might think ad cisable. On this subject, however,
he (the Chaucellar of the Exchequer) thought him-
self entitled to congratulate the House on the
view which the HMI. Gentleman himself had
taken of the state of our Finances. Hitherto,
nothing had been talked of but the deficiencies
.of out Revenue.; now, it seemed, that the Reve-
nue, with some economy, would so ,greatly exceed
the Expenditure, as to allow of a considerable
reduction of Taxes. lie (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had often been ,accused of painting
too flattering a picture of the state of, the coun-
' tiy. lie did not, however, go so far as the lion.
Gentleman. He did not think that, even if the

Sxpenditure were reduced in conformity to the
Hon. Gentleman's proposition, such an amount
of Taxes could be taken off as the lion. Gentle-
man wisligd fur. In our present situation, it
would require more than the experience of one
year to determine that fact.—For his part, lie
thought that the maintenance of public credit
Would be a much more efnctual mode of reliev-
big the general distress ; and thus thinking, lie
should move the previous question on • the Hon.
Gentleman's proposition.
_ Mr. CALCRAFT observed,. that he must cer-
tainly admit the Rt. Hon. Member had enlivened
the debate with some observations of rather a
pleasant nature, amongst "others he was pleased
to say, that as soon. as some persons could be
found•to till their places to the public advantage
so soon were they ready to retire. When that
period:-"arrived, when they should think persons
could be found .to fill their offices:to greater advan-
tage, he feared he should not be alive to witness
it. He had also talked of political Charlatans.
He (Mr. Calcraft) could not conceive .why the,
Itt. Hon. Gentleman should entertain sllO
timents of. the Whigs.; fur he remembered when
the Rt. Hon. Gentleman filled a sinali situation,
under the Whigs with great ability, and he would
not doubt that the , Rt. Hon. Gentleman at that
period would have said, that there 'would be-al-
ways political Charlatans ready to accept of office',
meaning, no doubt, the Tories ; and as soon as
Gentlemen- can be, found to fill our Offices with
•
advantage to the public, We (the Whigs) are ready
to resign them.—(Hear, hear !
was not his intention to- follow the Right
Gentleman through the eourse of his jokes,. but
before he came to the consideration of the ques-
tion,. he had a duty to perform, and that was to
return his thanks to his Hon. Friend for intro-
ducing his. motion, with an ability,
,a clearness,
and a perspicuity, such as he never- heard sur-
passed in that House.—,-(Hear, hear !)—lt re-
quired no -ordinary share of labour to collect all
the materials which he introduced ; it could not
be thine without sifting, over that volume which
is annually put into their hands, but which few
of them examine. It appears, from his state-
ment, that in the year 1702 the amonnt-of the
civiland military expenditure of this country
was seven millions;, in the year 1820 it was
twenty-six millions. This then was the point,
and to this they should address themselves, and
not to the burdens of the public creditor. The
Right Hon. Gentleman commenced by complain-
ing of the motion of his Honourable Friend
-he. Was
.sarprised 'that he could make such
a statement on such a notice Pe (Mr. Cal-
craft) did not think that any Honoura-
ble Member was bound to shape his motion
in such a way as to please any Chancellor of the
Exchequer. He next alluded to the year 1702,
and said that the Estimates of that year were so
low, that they did not aWord a ground of corn-.
parison. But that year has always beenconsider-
ed the basis of expenditure, and Mr. Pitt and his
colleagues were of opinion, that the Estimates of
that year should regulate the expenditure, and
that every shilling over and above that should he
.fully accounted fOr. The Right Hon- Gentleman
next alluded•to Army Pensions. On-that.ground
he fully concurred with him. }le would discharge
these pensions with as much fidelity as he would.
the claims of the national creditor. But, says the
Right Hon. gentleman, the Hon. Meiriber has
, chOOt the wrongtime,and the wr6ngmode ; he
has begun at' the wrong end; He would be glad
to know.what was the Right Hon. GentleMan'S
Opinion of mode and -tithe, and what .was hiS right
and 'what his wrong-end ?—(Hear!)—" Oh !"
• says the Right- Hon. Gentleman.; " you must
• wait until the estimates are produced, *and 'then
you will, find there is -a'reductiou of a.rnilliott."
Why, what is the plain state of the case ? Our
establishment is incruased two millionS, and then
the Right 'lion. Gentiernm, in his special grace
and favour, conents to ivcruce ono of them.—

(Hear., heae, hear.)—This sari nmething like
the reduction in our Military establishment, of
Which we have helrd so much in the speech from
the Throne. The military establishment is raised
in the time of peace, and then we ,arn"-eotigrattl-
late& on the reduCtion of our Military establish-
ment, as a proof of the. security and tranquillity of
this happy country, againit the workings ofaltese
political Charlatans, while the GOe( rument re-
mains in the sacred and immaculate hessids of the
Right lion. 'Gentleman opposite:—(Hear,
—The Right lion. G entleman stated, that he
could enumerate - various taxes that would
be more beneficial, if . repealed but he
has_ not thought proper to state'. any of
them. He (Mr. GO could point out some of pe-
culiar hardship, and not the least'io, he -meant
the Salt Tax, which was certainly one of the
most vexatious and intolerable taxes that ever
was imposed. - If you buys 1001. wortleof
you pay 30001. taxes before you can sell it.
The proposition was self-evident. The Res-
port that, was presented by _ the; Committee
of 1817, if he mistook not, came from the
Treasury ; and yet the- Right Honourable
Gentleman seemed so • frightened with the
creature of his own imagination, that he could
not even consent, to a discusSion. But the only
way, in his opinion, for any man who.wished to
carry a motion through that House, was .not to
consult either time, the mode, or the right or
wrong-end of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site. For, say the Noble Lord and his Col-
leagues—Oh ! they may talk of agricultural
Committees, and twenty-one of them-may go up
stairs and deliberate en the affair; but until they
come down to this House t.sith some proposition
to repeal the taxes, they may as well ,ga.into the
country, and make one common cause of misery,
with their tenantry.—(Hear, hear!)--e-The Right
Hon. Gentleman has offered no arguments, but
Still he has his majority, and a majority is alWays
right. lie was only surprised that they should
waste their time on his side•otthe House, for no
matter how justified their labours, or .how great
theiir exertions, they must bow to the majority.—
(Hear, hear !)
Mr. Husetssoet .could not think that the Hon.
Member who just sat down had added very con-
siderably to the mirth of the discussion, by the
axis-interpretation of the sentiments of Right
lion. Friend. With respect to the present
question, he could 'not conceive that a compari-
son could be instituted with any degree of pro-
priety between . the year 1792 e1:ni1..1820. 11l
1792, it was nine,years
,after a peace ; the array
was in a floueishing condition ; the navy in the
same state ; and besides since then, the pay of
the army, navy, and ordnance, is considerably
increased. must also, in looking at
ceueStion, compare the numberS, and that
would be best dime when the estimates were
brought before the consideration of the lionse,--
lie did not complain of the motion, except inas-
much as it was caleulated to create false impres-
sions, and certainly the best mode of proceeding
for all practical' purposes .into consider the estie
;mates. The proposition coming front a Gentle-
Man so well acquainted with the finance of the
country, appeared to him the most extraordinary ;
at the same time, fie mast give him credit for his
.deseepination to keep faith watts the national
taondh,!.4ltre, was sure it would .be to .the house
it was, a satisfaction. to him to state,
that the Estimates of- the present year,
for the Army, ;Commissariat, Barracks, &c.
are reduced to a. sum under that of 1-817.
He hoped the -OraNtnce Estimates (.taking
.credit
for only an averege fele of .old stores) would be
brought within-1,100,0004 ;_ so that it would ap-
pear all the great establishments will not exceed
the Estimates of the year 1817. With respect to
the establishment at .Chelsea, he hoped that had
crow arrived at the maximum and we might hope
now for reductions in that,head of expence. The
Miscellaneous Serviees were a head of expellee
which were the ledet• susceptible of accurate esti-
mate. Last year, for.example, 100,000/. had been
paid to .the subjects
'of Portugal, for certain slave
'ships captured by the British: •that was a head of
expense that could not have: been contemplated
in 1817 ; but he hoped and believed that head of
expellee would not this year exceed 1,700,000/:
Upon the whole, he believed he had shewn that
upon the three great-establishments of the:coon:
try the expence would' not exceed above twit') or
• three hundred thousand poUnds; the Estimates of
1817. On the subject of taxation, it was soMe'.•
thing whimsical that' the Hon. • Member, appa-
rently without any reason for the selectioe,shoeld
have fixed on 'the Witulaw and House Tax for
repeal. The Honourable Member who spoke
last had argued • in favour of taking mei the
taxes on malt and agricultural- horses, in ad-
dition to the other taxes, which would, instead
of two millions, give them between sin and seven
millions- If the lienottrable Member, thoughts
that practicable,. the sooner he should make an
intelligible proposition to. the. ,House the bete
ter ; and he was certain thatshisjienourable
charge of the reYetute and the administratien to
Friends would have great pleasure in resigning the
those who could fulfil the conditions held out.—
lie was of opinion that :the House would act
most unwisely in adopting any measure which.
.would have a tendency to impair the public
credit ; and he would put it to the Honour-
able Gentleman (Mi. Moberly), whether a
sinking fund of between two and.three millions
was such as we ought. to be satisfied ,with, -and
whether it would not be right to endeaeour to
-vigorate it by every -exertion of economy.—
(Cheers from the-OppositioTl.)—He understood
the Cheers of the Iron. Gentlemen, and when
the Estimates should be discussed, it wouldbe for
these Gentlemen to slew that more could have
been done, and he (lid not desire, them even to
respect the Estimates of 1817. He thought that
ally premature attempts to relieve ourselves from
_taxation, would only place us in a situation of
-embarrassment and difficulty. lie should there-
previous question, as moved by
fore support the
his Right lion. Friend..
Mr. Rteattno conceived the Right Hon. ,Gen-
tleman had misunderstood the object of the Hon.
Mover. If he had. himself . rightly understood
him, his proposition wasito reduce taxation,
.not
by taking front the Sinking Fundebut by econo-

hl jte if, - hoWeter, haA propmeA to,
lake 'two triillic s from the Sinkifig Fued,
hie, Would have met teith no. oppositiore from
for; he looked upon it altogether as
a delusion. Lf- the. rea:na%t • df it were pre-,
served, it: could -oeor ho that. hie Majesty's
Tilinisters migta lay. Their hantls:upon it for the
.purposes of ueneeessary eeneuditurti. lie..eti&
not think the. Chancellor of the Eecheqerr tveeld
he well pleased 'with the ilefeece of the itight
liou, -Gentleman (Mr. Flusk:eson) of that night,;
to hear him it would be infeeined the expanses
of last :year were provided for aljnost entirely
by loans: lie was pleased to lea? the Right
Houourable Ge:fflemati express his jealousy,
of diminishing the Consolidated Fund ; - he
for.got that was what had -Lem), doing for a
course of years, yet' had great horror of doing
what was mere Matter of account. He . con-
teived that the Hon. Mover had given rather too
favourable a view .of the receipts and expendi-
ture of the present yedr.. The Sinking Fund
would, he feared, fall far below the sum he had
estimated. He founded his opinion on a calcu-
lation whicheif there was any error in, the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite would set him right.—
There was a reduction of twenty-five millions
last year from the national debt ; that was com-
posed of a diminutio.n of eight millions of the
unfunded debt; and seventeen millions of the
Sinking Fund. Against that 25; , 000,0001. there
should be placed the increase to the debt by the
loan, and the 7,000,0001. of Exchequer B:Ils
funded, making together 21,000,0001. of stock,
to which add 400,0001. for deficiency of the Con-
solidated. Fund, and the ' total would make
24,400,0001., which being deducted from
25,000,000!. would leave 600,0001. of debt less
than. in 1820, and that-he' conceived to be the
real amount of die Sinking . .
Mr. 115911INGTON said, if the proposition of the'
Hon. Mover were to_ take effect; that Sinking
Fund "which the Bon-Member for Portarlington
characterized as a delusion, would become-still
more worthy of being- so denominated. There
was certainly no one tax which could have been
selected as being so little Calculated to afford
relief to Agriculture as the Horse Tax, since
the farmer was specially exempted from that
duty. Had that side of the House been aware of
(he course which the Hon.. Mover was abOut to
take, lie had no doubt that many of his State-
ments could have been controverted. One instance
he could point: out, in which he was in error.
The charges of management were in the year
1792, 61. ss. per cent. and in the last year
51:195. per cent. He thought it must be very
satisfactory for the House to hear that such a re-
duction had taken place, notwithstanding the
change in paying the Customhouse establish-
ment. In 1792 great part was paid by fees,
whilst now the officers were paid regular salaries
ie lien, which had caused an increase in that
branch. The Honourable Member then went
through the detail of the expenses of collection
and management of the Excise, the Stamp and
other duties, in verification of his statement ;
and considered that after such an exposition, to
talk of a saving of two per cent. in that-branch
was a mere fallacy. For those reasons be should
vote for the previous question.
Mr. Eete Ce was glad to hear of the reduction
that was to be made in the expenditure, but
wished to know what good reason could be
given for it not having been doue last year. As
two great branches of the expenditure had been
brought within the sum Tecomthended by the.
Finance Committee, he was inclined to go the,
.whole leegthevhich they had advised. The lion.
Gentlemen opposite professed their readines.s to
concur in any measure for a practical retrench-
ment: A motion was now on the order-book
.fo;• reducing the' otperaces of the Receivers-Ge-
neral of Cannties ; would the Hon. Gentlemen-
opposite give their suppoit to that motion?—
( Eearl)---Thatevas a practical retrenchment, but
he-knew that they always had refused to give.
their sanction to any measure of that .eort. He
agreed wiih the lion. Member for Portarlington,
that it would be wise to have: recourse to the
tiinking Fund ; with their table loaded with PeL.
titions: complaining of agricultural distress, he
thought they ought to endeavour to reduce tax-
ation, and thoegh he respected the public faith
and valued-the public credit as much- as any man,
he did not see any reason there was for going be-
yOud the necessity. lie could see no utility iu
keepiug up that complicated account of the
Sinking Funch Why not rub off that part which
had !seen paid, and simplify the thing so that
ever' one might undeestand. it ? If lie had seen
any disposition -on the other side of the House
last .night to repeal a tax Which pressed exclu-
sively on agriculture, he 'should have given some
cretlit. to the argument :now brought forward,
that' the'repeal of these taxes would be.no relief
to the farMee. :
The CitANCELLOR of the ,EXCileclueß and Mr.
t,t.rcE mutually. explained.
Mr. MA amt,Y, junior, :supported the Resolu--
tionS, bot rather than any disagreement should
take place, he shotild readily agree to substitute
any other tax for those named in the Resolutiens.
"Mr. Yonte-Ssterwsaide be was rather inclined to
view with doubt any reduction of the taxation at
the presenttirneebut if a reduction could be made,
he' was.inforntedeupon the best authority, that a
redaction of the-tax on salt would be that which
would be :the least•injurious to the revenue, and
Of-the greatest advantage to agrieulture. From
the caleulatiOne made, it appeared if that tax'
were repealed a, great increase,might be looked
for in other: branches of the revenue. Agreeing
in the main With" his Hon. Friend, he should cer-
tainly vote for his two first Resolutions.
-Mr. AN'tettoe ,considered that the subject
stood differently, from What it did when the Hot),
Gentleman -first introduced it ; since then they
had ,the atfthoeitez of the night Honourable Gen-
tleman.(Mr. lineleisson) that the reductions had
actually heen Made, and the question therefore
before:the House was now merely whetherehaving.
made a reduction of the expenditure, it would be
most for. the interest of the country to add, to the
Consolidated Fund or reduce the taxation ?: and
on an extended consideretion.of thequestion he'
should give the preference, to the former.
MAUERLY replied, he attri.buted the error

into Which he La,..! fallen with respect to did
charges o(J:ran-tiger:writ to a - mistake in' The
printed accoil its laid on the tabie, from whit*
he Lad talten'thern. • •

Mr. Ittcanno, Mr. -LusrtiNGTON aad Mr.
MA 1g Ly soverally
The House then divided aqd, the nlater9

were

FurtileMair,tt
Against it • ,
hlajority against the 11,1u1 itlil ... . •
On ottr re-Adtni.,lrin,, a uti!J vercition.. tool; iilaee, wllich
Sir Jotin Newport. thr (.11-aiicrli.or of. tlie ExchiAiter, aitd Sit'
Geing"'Hillolo,4t Put. respect:iig the expeiii:e,ut the
.ttillea-
tion o' the revenue in Ireland.

Sir 6E011(3'6. 11 ILL who ittrii.that there Iratt freer' A rafting
off w the amount of the taxes iu Ireland, and tint sam.e;ma-
ciiittely for,the collection betng necessarily .1...4a up, of cour,.e
the charge for collecting- was greater iu propollauo to tht!
amount them formerly.
Alr. CHARLES CifiANT contended that e'very possiirle ex,
ettien had been made to red ice the a xpenec of easteciirte, liT
eunAiderahle reddeliim to every depittt,rent. Iu the depart=
meat of .!•tatups, the C:uthmissioners had omen reduced trim!
fire to three; in the Cu,toms, from sercn to five ;.
Excise, from seven to six.

Loud MOUNT CH.IItLES suuested that the 6„ of s,Todt
stills should he pet milted in Leland, which would toirch.in-
crease the :evenue.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said, no answer had been eeven to it:
question put li) his Right Holt. ,Friend, the Nl,roht-r
IVaterfold, whethef the expenee of colieving the assesed
taxes in Ireland did not amount to
.27 per tent ?—(l.lrart
hear. hear 1.)—This he thought was. a [natter which I-quire!!
sortie explanation.
The second Resolution was then put, and negatieed mith•
out a division; and the remaining resoluti.nis
.weir Irit.h•
drawn.