The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-25 00:00:00

of England.—(Hear, hear. ) The Vice-President of the
Board of Trade had told them that the West Indian
labourers were in an extremely prosperous condition, that they
had two shillings a day, besides provision found, and that it was
difficult to get them to give a complete day's labour. Now, he
believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was correct in that
representation, but he wanted to know, if they compared his
condition with that of the peasant in Dorsetshire or Somerset-
shire, where was the justice of taxing the peasant of Dorset or
Somerset, and not the negro peasant in the West Indies?
Well, it was not justice to the laborer that required the pro-
tection. Was it the merchant or ship owner that required it?
No person would deny that they would not gain more' by
an unrestricted trade than by protection.—( Hear hear.) Who
then required it ? It was clear that the only remaining class
were the owners of the land in the West Indies—( Hear,
hear)—and the planters resident in this country ; and the
people of England would do well to consider that, when jus-
tice to the colonies was talked of, it meant, stating the matter
plainly and intelligibly, the placing of a large sum of money in
the pockets of certain West India planters resident in this
country.—(Hear.) If the West India planters had a case
against this country he was prepared to meet it fairly.
If they put forward a good case, he was sure the people of
England would meet their demand fairly, as they did when they
paid the twenty millions for the abolition of slavery. If they
proved the case, the people of this country would meet their
demands fully and fairly, but in the way least onerous to the
country, namely, by charging the Consolidated Fund with an
annuity for those gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) But he for one
would not consent to a tax on account of the West India pro •
prietors, which for every pound it put into their pockets, took
two out of the pockets of the people. —( Hear, hear.) And he
would prove that this was the case, and that the difference was
wasted in the way in which:labour and capital was employed.—
( Hear.) But he would go further, and contend that while
this measure was most injurious to the people of England, and
was a gross injustice to the manufacturing classes of this coun-
try, it would also disappoint the West India proprietors
( Hear' hear.) And the grounds of that opinion it was not
difficult to explain. Whoever took the trouble of becoming
acqua'nted with the condition of the West India colonies, par-
ticularly whoever had carefully read the Report of the Com-
mittee in 1842, would see at once that the great ground of
complaint, on the part of the planters, was that while there
was great competition for labour on their part, the wages
of the negro were so high that by only working part of the day
he was able to supply himself with all those necessaries and
luxuries to which he was accustomed. Of course, like men in
other countries, they did not like work for work's sake. They
found that whatever was the price of sugar the planters sought
to outbid each other by offering the highest price for labour,
which the price of sugar at the time enabled them to afford.
That was a necessary consequence of a limited supply of labour.
But what would be the effect of raising the price of sugar, and
raising thereby the competition for labour amongst the plan-
ters? His belief was, that the competition which already
existed would become more intense—higher wages would be
offered to the negro. They would then be enabled to supply
themselves with all they wanted at a smaller amount of labour,
and the effect would be in all probability a diminished supply
of sugar, thus placing the West Indies, as compared with the
East Indies, in a worse position than at present.—( Hear, hear.)
There was strong reason for believing that such would be the
effect of the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. And he
thought that the best opportunity now presented itself of
making a change in the policy hitherto pursued,
because after a long perseverance in the protective
system, and after quiet was established, he thought
it would tend to great temporary disturbance to make such a
change. But now that a large reduction of taxation was pro-
posed, if they made this change of policy they would escape this
serious shock to colonial industry. And it was also to be con-
sidered, that by making the two measures simultaneous, by
coupling together the reduction on colonial sugar and the
equalisation of duty on sugar of all descriptions—by making the
two contemporaneous they might hope to give the consumer
the benefit he ought to have from the reduction granted to him
at the expense of the Treasury. If they were to reduce the
duty on colonial sugar without extending the source of supply,
he thought the great probability was that there would be no
fall of consequence in the price of sugar. The consumption
of this country was entirely kept down by the price—
it was so infinitely below the real wants of the people—(Hear)
—that his belief was that if the source of supply were not ex-
tended at the moment the duty was reduced, the price would
rise with the demand, and the advantage of the reduction
would be divided between the planter and the labourer em-
ployed in the cultivation of sugar. His belief was that if the
supply of sugar was increased by enlarging the sources from
which it came, it would be absorbed so much by this country,
where the richest body of consumers were to be found, that
the price would rise of necessity in the other markets of the
world. Price being thus supported, and looking to the fast that
the price of colonial and Brazil sugar in bond was but is. 6d. a
few days ago, and that the remission proposed by the
Government on colonial;sugar was 1 Is. ; considering that, he
felt persuaded that the price of sugar in all the markets of the
world would be so supported for a time, that the immediate
fall of price in this country could not go beyond the amount of
the remission of the duty. If that were so, then (and this was
what he wished to impress on the House), this desirable change
of policy might be effected without injuring, at all events fer
the present, the colonial produce. If the fall of price in this
country did net exceed the remission of the duty, the consumer
would remain as well off as he was at this moment. No
doubt in the course of time, the price would be brought down.
But then the argument of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite
was, that the principles of free trade, which were those of
common sense, ought not to be introduced at once, but gra-
dually, and he had shown that if the principle were now in-
troduced its operation would be slow. The Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last had admitted that of late years there was a con-
siderable improvement in the cultivation of sugar, and he had
no doubt but that improvement would greatly advance if the
West Indies were subjected to a closer competition. He be-
lieved that the system of working by agents and attorneys was
at the root of the whole evil, and that when the negroes,
who were advancing in material prosperity and in
intellectual power, became proprietors, they would be
able to contend with the producers of foreign countries.
When all those improvements had taken place which
the state of the West Indian population required, there
could be no doubt that all the advantages which the advo-
cates of emancipation predicted from the employment of free
labour instead of slavelabour, would result. They knew that
in this country, where farms or manufactories were carried on
by agents, while the owners lived in Naples or Moscow, much
profit was not derived from them ; and so it was with re-
gard to the cultivation of sugar in the West Indies. But
they must remember how fast the condition of the negro was
improving ; and when he had the stimulus of personal interest,
he had no doubt that the cultivation and manufacture of sugar
would be improved in the highest degree. Every day there
was rising into manhood, not an uneducated population, de-
graded by the influences of slavery, but enlightened by educa-
tion. By slavery they might extort more physical labour from
the slave, but they could not draw out the qualities of his
mind. For that purpose slavery was powerless, and accord-
ingly all experience proved that every business carried on by
slave labour, whether in their own colonies, or the United
States or Brazil, in all those eases it was proved that free
labour was more profitable than slave labour, and that
was emphatically the case in :the cultivation of sugar.
That was the reason why, after two or three centuries, there
was still observed so little difference between the primitive
state of those affected by this question and their condition at
that time. More had been done towards realising their wishes
within the last half dozen years, and since slavery
had been abolished in their own colonies, than in the two cen-
turies before. But still, considering the improvements going
on in the trade of Antigua and Barbadoes, the improvements
in the condition of the labourers was not so rapid as it ought to
be. They still wanted the stimulus of competition, but they
might look to this result, that, in three years, free labour would
be so much cheaper than slave labour, in Trinidad and other
places, that they would not only be able to drive slave labour
out of their own markets, but out of the markets of the world,
and, by doing so, not only abolish the slave trade, but slavery
itself. The great result to which they might with confidence
look, was this, that if they had sufficient faith in the
truth of their great principle, sufficient confidence in the
realisation of all that was good and great, over that which was
the opposite if, instead of shrinking from the inconveniences or
temporary difficulties which must result from the change he
recommended, for he did not deny that some temporary incon-
veniences and some immediate evil might not arise.—(Hear,
from the Ministerial side of the House.) He was not pre-
pared to deny that some immediate encouragement might not
be given to the slave-trade, but he considered that any tem-
porary evil of this kind was of minor importance, when looked
at in connexion with such great and glorious objects. He did
not attempt to deny that some inconvenience might be expe-
rienced by equalising at present the duties on all sugars to the
exclusion of slave labour from their markets, but he liked
still less their plan of rejecting some, and admitting others—
which they might think it too great a sacrifice to refuse—
their plan of attempting to bolster up their colonies by pro-
tective duties. He did not deny that those measures, while
they were utterly powerless to get rid of the evil, might
nevertheless answer for the time ; but if, in order to put
down not only the slave-trade but slavery itself, they continued
them, the remedy would be found quite inadequate. If they
trusted in the tiuth of that great principle which they had
with due consideration adopted—if they were prepared to
trust their own colonies to struggle in the markets with the
produce of the slave countries—if it was their opinion that
no good could arise without pursuing some stated principle—
if they admitted slave-grown sugar as they admitted cotton,
tobacco, or other products—if they were prepared to do
this, there might be some temporary inconvenience, it
was true they might not indeed gain a great
victory for the cause of humanity, but they might
rest assured that free labour would triumph in the struggle
over slavery. Such was his conviction, and in that conviction
he would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Man-
chester; and his answer to the Hon. Gentleman on the oppo-
site side, who taunted him in supporting it, was, that he was
not more indifferent to the horrors of slavery now than whets it
was triumphant in the colonies, and that it ill became them to
taunt, who were not by those horrors prevented from profiting
by those abuses as long as they lasted, those who were but
new philanthropists. He was not more indifferent than when
he had supported those honourable and patriotic men to whose
exertions the British nation was indebted for equalizing the sta-
tion of the bondman and the free. He had humbly supported
those, one of whom he could not help remarking they had
lately lost—one whom they must all remember for his since-
rity, his zeal, and his earnestness in the cause of the slave—but
although he had supported 6ir Thomas Fowell Buxton, al-
though he retained the full feeling that he then advocated, he
was not to be deterred from supporting the motion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Manchester, and he did hope that the
people of this country would look on, and compare their con-
duct with the previous conduct of those who put forward this
question as the advocates of free trade, and see how much of
sincerity there was at the bottom of their arguments, and then
ask themselves, on a question like that, if any Ministry could
passively look on the evils of this country, on the distresses of
its labourers, and still continue by this mode of legislation to
burden the country with its present amount of pecuniary
taxation?

Mr. GLADSTONE said that he for one meant not to dis-
cuss the question of slavery as slavery with the Noble Lord who
had just sat down ; but he concurred in the eulogium which
the Noble Lord had just passed on the principles which had
actuated the late Sir T. Fowell Buxton, although he could not
help thinking that the Noble Lord was not particularly happy
in his choice of introducing at that time the taunt of their
being new philanthropists. The Noble Lord was an advocate
of extreme measures, and he was prepared to bring
the question to a fina settlement. But he (Mr. Glad-
stone) was not sure that this merit would attach
to the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester.

Now, the Hon. Gentleman had stated he had heard much said
of the tax that had been paid by the people on account of the
differential duties. He did net deny that there was a payment,
which, if they pleased, they might call a tax on sugar, but why
should they resort to unnecessary exaggeration ? The Noble
Lord opposite had commenced his speeah by attacking the
Hon. Member for Bristol, and by stating that 2,300,0001.
was the minimum tax on the people for sugar; but instead of
showing a difference of 131. or 10/., he only showed a difference

of 7s. 6d.
Lord HOWTCK—That was after the change.
Mr. GLADSTONE—Yes, but after that change it was
said there would be a rise. The Noble Lord had informed
them, and truly, that if they granted equalization there would
be a rise in the price of sugar, and there would be no diminu-
tion of the tax paid by the people.—(Hear, hear.) It bad been
said that the gist of the question had not been met ; he
granted that it had not ; but the policy of this country had
been to maintain a system of protection, and that under that
certain engagements had been entered into, perhaps viciously,

but interests had been formed which the British Parliament
would support if it was just. He did not think the
House would be prepared to admit that they ought
to apply, with sudden hand the principle of free trade to cir-
cumstances so artificial as those under which the sugar trade
remained. The Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had said
what claim had the West India proprietors to deferential duty?
He wished heartily that :equality could be established between
native and foreign protection, but it was the extreme dearness
of production in the West Indies that made the difficulty that
had always been felt.—( Hear, hear.) Now what was the
cause of all this? Why, it was said that the scarcity of
labour was the cause of all.—( Hear, hear.) Now he could
not agree with that.—(Hear.) It was true that that was
one great cause of the scarcity, but another cause was the non-
residence of proprietors. If they could change the non-resident
proprietors to residents he believed the great difficulty would be
removed.—(Hear, hear.) But how came the West Indian
proprietors to be non-resident? Why, because it was com-
patible with the slavery system ; for that the Parliament of the
country was responsible.—( Hear, hear. ) It was on the ground
of non-retidence that he rested his case for the protection of
the sugar duties. Parliament had interfered and abolished
slavery, and, therefore, it made that which was hitherto abun-
dant, scarce. The consequence was—'hat labour, which was
cheap, became dear, and those who caused that dearness were
bound to meet their share of the consequences of their men
acting. It might be shown that there were estates in the
West Indies that had not met with losses ; but with regard to
the greater portion of them, perhaps not one in ten, aye, per-
haps not one in fifty, stood on the right side of the account.
The Noble Lord had said that the present was a most favour-
able opportunity for the equalisation of the duties on sugar.—
( Hear, hear. ) What was now proposed ? Why, instead of
maintaining a system which gave the West Indians 20s. per
hundred weight, they were about to adopt a system that would
give only lOs. A severe pressure had been brought to bear
upon the West Indian proprietors since the abolition of slavery.
He was unwilling to detain the House long upon the subject,
because it was not necessary to argue it farther. Ile was per-
suaded that the House would deal with the question now before
it as it had dealt with many such questions, and that it would
net begin at the wrong end as to the principle of free trade.
Let them apply the principle of free trade wherever they
could without producing evil.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But let them not begin by applying those ptinciples against the
produce of the West Indies.—( Hear.) They should not com-
pare it with those interests which came before the House with-
out any special claim, whereas the West Indians had this
ground that the causes which prevented them from competing
with their foreign rivals were brought about by the measures
of Parliament—those causes being principally non-residence of
the landlords, and the scarcity of labour—which latter was the
consequence of the honourable but costly Act of the British
Parliament, in the emancipation of the negro slaves.—( Hear. )
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he would not detain the
House more than a very few minutes. But having frequently
had occasion to take part in the discussion of this question, he
could not allow the present motion to be disposed of without
troubling the House with a few words. He was not disposed
en this occasion to discuss the scheme of her Majesty's Minis-
ters. To it he had great objections.—(Hear, hear.) But he
was glad that the proposition of his Noble Friend ( Lord J.
Russell) and those of other Gentlemen nn that side of the
House would give him an opportunity of stating his objections.
One of those objections was, that not only was the scheme in-
trinsically bad in itself, but, instead of bringing the duties on
sugar to the point which they should reach, or diminishing the
protection, it was proposed to increase the protection whirls
already existed.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, by adding to the
protection, it greatly increased the difficulty of dealing with the
subject at a future time. The question at present before the
House was really whether at once and completely
they should proceed to substitute for the present. duty one of
complete equality. That was the real question before the
House. He thought he had fairly stated the question as it hart
been put by the lion. Member for Manchester, and his Noble
Friend the Member for Sunderland.—( Hear, hear.) Now he
conceived that nothing could be more objectionable—however
much he condemned those duties—than to proceed at once to
equalisation.—(Ministerial cheers.) The consequence would
be to throw into confusion and to paralyse every interest con-
nected
with the colonial sugar trade.—( Ministerial cheers. )
He felt bound to say that, on this occasion, he must take the
course which he had uniformly taken when similar questions
affecting interests in the country came before the House.
He did not think that the course recommended by
the Hon. Mover (Mr. Gibson) and his Noble Friend was
that which the Government ought to pursue, and he, for one,
as a Member of that House, would not be a party to force it.
upon there.—( Ministerial cheers.) The question had been
so fully argued that he was not disposed to detain the House at
any length. He was the more unwilling to do so, because he
assured them that, although he had thought it his duty not to
shrink from avowing his dissent from his Noble Friend and the
Hon. Mover, yet it was painful to him to argue with them
upon a subject upon which to so great an extent he agreed with
them.—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with them, that the danger
in that House was not that protection would be too suddenly
withdrawn—(Cheers)—but that it would be continued too
long—(Cheers)—to the injury of the country and of the pro-
tected interests themselves.—( Cheers.) Therefore it was with
unwillingness he opposed motions of this kind.—( Hear, hear. )
But it was now proposed to substitute for a system of exclusion
and monopoly, one of perfect free trade. That was a course
opposed to even the great and recognised authorities in political
economy, from Adam Smith to the present day. He found
that they all—however clearly they laid down and il-
lustrated the principles of free trade—they all said
that circumspection and caution should be used in applying
those principles to interests which had been long cherished
under the principle of protection. In that House he had
heard the most distinguished statesmen—from Mr. Huskisson
down—and he had never heard a contrary opinion from any
public man whose opinion carried any great weight.—( Hear,
hear.) And, looking to the policy of the world, they would
never see a long-continued protection suddenly removed.—
( Hear, hear.) Looking to this, and to the present position
of the colonies, he did not think that the real interests of the
country would be promoted by adopting a resolution of the
description of that now proposed. Considering the present
position of the West Indian interests, and the course of legisla-
tion pursued toward s them, there was every reason why those
principles of caution and circumspection, so just and
reasonable in themselves, and recommended by the
highest authorities, should be applied to then.—( Ministerial
cheers.) He had no more connexion with the West Indies
than any other Member of that House, but he would not deal
with the colonial interests more harshly than with any other in-
terest in this country.—( Hear, hear. ) lie was, therefore, not
prepared to take the course recommended in the resolution be-
fore the House.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think it necessary
to trouble the House at great length on the present occasion,
and he would now only say tliat.whilst he was willing to vote for
a diminished protection, he could not vote for an equalisation
of the duties upon colonial and foreign sugar.--( Hear, hear. )
Mr. COBDEN, who commenced in a tone extremely low
and indistinct, so as to be for some minutes almost inaudible in
the gallery, was understood to say, that when he considered that
the arguments upon this question were nearly exhausted,
he was not disposed to occupy the time of the
House at any great length. But he had taken some
little trouble with the subject, which was an old acquaintance
of his.—( Cheers and laughter.) That (as we understood )
might be some little apology for him in speaking upon this
occasion.—( Hear, and a laugh.) Since he had heard the
Hon. Member for Bristol and the Hon. Member for Cumber-
land express themselves quite satisfied with the scheme of the
Right Hon. Baronet, he was certain not only that the measure
was as bad as the one of last year, but that it was something
worse.—( Cheers and a laugh. ) He supposed that the Right
Hon. Baronet wished to have a little flirtation with the prin-
ciples of free-trade—(Langhter)—those principles which he
(Mr. Cobden) and his friends cherished. lint then the
Right Hon. Baronet turned back to his first love—( A laugh)
—and they could not expect him to follow them.—( Hear and
a laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet's Budget took something
out of the pockets of the people by means of the income-tax,
and gave it back by the repeal of some Customs duties. But
he ( Mr. C.) thought that with regard to the protective duties
on sugar, the people would be on the whole in a worse position
than they were last year.—( Opposition cheers.) He did not
think he had any other part of the assertion to deal with, but
the subject of slavery. His Noble Friend ( Lord Howick)
had been charged with imputing motives. He ( Mr. Cobden)
would not impute motives. But he might do Right Hon.
Gentlemen some good by telling them what motives were im-
puted to them out of doors.—( Hear, hear. ) Gentlemen
thought that in supporting the scheme of the :Government
they would have the assistance of the anti-slavery body in this
country. In that they were mistaken.--(Cheers.) He (Mr.
Cobden) had an extensive acquaintance amongst that most
respectable body, and he could say that the greater part of
them were supporters of the principles of free trade.—( Loud
cries of " No, no. ) There were Committees sitting in Lom-
bard-street and Bond-street (in London). But he remem-
bered that they voted for the Hon. Gentleman now Member
for Huntingdon.—(Cheers.) But with the great body of the
opponents of slavery they had no influence, no support.—
(Cheers, and cries of " Hugh, hugh," and other discordant
cries from the Ministerial benches.) When the Anti-Slavery
Society existed who were its representatives in that
House ?—(Loud cheers. ) The Members for Manchester,
for Kendal, for Leeds, for Bath.—(Cheers.) These were all
Members upon the Liberal side of the House, and who sent
them there? The anti-slavery body.—(Cheers.) Let them
look to Leeds.—(Hear, hear.) They (the Alinisterial side)
had one Member. The Opposition had another. The Minis-
terial Member represented that party who, to the last, resisted
the emancipation of the negro slaves.—(Cheers.) The Liberal
Member, on the contrary, was the representative of those who
had made the most strenuous and indefatigable efforts for the
abolition of slavery.—(Cheers.) He was sorry that the Hon.
Member for Bath had a cold.—( A laugh.) But he would ask
the Hon. Member to tell the House whether Isis anti-slavery
friends in Bath would have the sugar of the poor labourers in
Somersetshire kept at a high price to protect the West Indian
interest?—( Hear, hear.) The Gentlemen opposite who sup-
ported this scheme under the pretence of discouraging slavery
were the persons who to the last resisted the abolition of slavery
—(Cheers)—who to the last resisted the exemption of women
from the lash.—(lmmense cheering.) Every one of them (the
Tories),every one of their leaders resisted the exemption of women
from the lash.—( Cheers.) Let them not say that he charged
them with motives.—( A laugh.) He only told them the mo-
tives which were attributed to them out of doors. The resolu-
tion only said that the protection was not to be permanent.
They would vote against that. Let them consider then what
would be the opinion of foreign nations on this subject ? Would
they not say that the Right Hon. Baronet and his supporters
were guilty of hypocrisy in their proposed hostility to slavery?
Would they not say, as Mr. Colquhoun had stated in a most
bold and statesmanelike document, that they wished to put
down slavery, in order that they might have
a monopoly in the production of sugar.—( Cheers. )
The lion. Gentleman assumed that the business of sugar
making could not be carried on in competition with slave la-
bour ; and the Hon. Member for Cumberland said, " How
would you like to carry on the manufacturing in Manchestereans
against competitors abroad who paid no wages?"—that means,
against them work!
against people who steal their workmen, and
for their food. In reply to this challenge,
he(Mthan those.—
n'ar. Cobden)
would say,. that he desired no other competitors
( Hear, hear.) If the manufacturers o tiehNocrothulodfcoEning.laanndd
had only a gang of slaves to compete with, t,
the markets of the world.—( Hear, hear.) Was there ever suc
an absurdity—such a monstrous absurdity, as to suppose that a
community of slaves could
rivala nation of freemen.—( Cheers. )
The very nature of slave labour precludes those economical
arrangements which freeatemedn, are able to effect. Slavery in-
volves expenses, he repeated, which freemen do not, because he
_
that employs slaves must keep a sufficient number of workmen
on his premises to meet every possible contingency. If the
proprietor be a sugar manufacturer he must have a sufficient
number of coopers about him to meet his wants, and more, for
he must allow for casualties. In the same way he must retain
a sufficient number of waggeners, and other descriptions of la-
bourers, though he should only want their services once a
twelvemonth. Would any one tell him that in such a state of
society as that, which precluded the division of labour, the ap-
plication of science, or the march of improvement, slavery could
surpass freedom. Ile assumption that pervaded the whole of the
speeches of the Hen. Gentlemen opposite, and particularly of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark, was, that an
equalised duty would necessarily kin.. ruin on every one of the
colonies. That presumption he characterised' as an odious
fallacy. lie denied the premises. They had been disproved
in Manilla and Java. If the sugar growers in those places
could sell their sugar in Holland in opposition to those of
Brazil, why not the West Indians as well. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Bristol came here very much in forma pauperis, plead-
ing for relief in order to carry on the business ; but he (Mr.
Cobden) submitted that before they doled out the public money to
these gentlemen, they should investigate their accounts. Let us