The Sun.
London, England, 1817-05-13 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

The House having ordered that the Army Esti-
mates should be. referred to the Committee of Sup-
ply, slid- the House having resolved itself into
that Committee,
Lord New:error? said, that in, rising to 'eel
upon the Honie to vote the Supplies for the
At my for the whole of the year, he did not feel
himself boned to follow the arrangement which
hail ibeen hitherto 'usual in describing the diffe-
rent classes of force which it was proposed to
maintaiu. He should, therefore (thinking it the
most 'consonant and perspicuous mode), 'divide
the whole of the Establishment for which he now
intended to call upon the House to provide, into
four classes, "Under the first class, he included
the whole active military force employed within
the kingdom, that was to say, the Regiments of
the Line, the Staff, the Volunteers and Yeomanry,
end the public offices. Under the second class
be included the active force employed out of the
kingdom, including the troops in France and in
I tdin. The third dais comprehended' that de-
scription who were remunerated for past services,
such as the half-pay, Chelsea pensioners, &c. The
fourth class was composed of that part of the esta-
blishment which it was intended -to reducein the
course of the present year, but for which some sup-
ply would be required, as the rennet ion was not yet
completed.. The labours of the Finance Corn-
mit tee made it unnecessary for him to trespass at
such length on the time of the House as he might
Otherwise have felt hiMself bound to do. The
general and' comprehensive statement in the
Second Report of that. Committee would enable
Gentlemen to satisfy themselves on many points.
To the cOmparative statement in the twenty.o.
sixth null twenty-seventh pages of. that Report
lie particularly referred. It would there be
seen, that on the total amount of force for this
year, as compared with that for the preceding
year, there was a diminution of I ,738,0001. Bat
in that'statement was included the disembodied
Militia, which he did not take into the account
in what he had now to submit to the Committee.
There would there! ore, by making an allowance for
this,'he on the whole force of this year, as compared
with the last, a reduction amounting in rottuthnm-
hers t0'1,800,0001. By referring to the 23(1 page
of the same Report it would be found, taking the
more narrow view, and taking only. that part of
the army which wits en actual charge on the re-
venue of the country, that there was a diminution
in the 'limiter of men for the service of this year
as compared with the preceding, of 35,000 rank.
and file, or !including Officers) 40,000. In ad-
dition to this, however, he' had to state to the
Carmelite", that orders had been recently sent to
the Mediterraneau for the-return of the 2d batta-
lion of the 14th Regiment, which waa to be re-
duced as soon us it reached this country. Taking
the reduction of that battalion into account, there
would he a reduction on this brunch of the force
of 36,000 rank and file, or 42,000, including
Officers and men, compared with the numbers
of, last year. If the aggregate of the military es-
tetaishment, including, the force in France, was
taken, and allowance was made for the 2(1 bat.,
talion of the 14th Regiment of Foot, now on their
way home to be reduce'', there was, on the whole,
it reduction of 53,000 rank and file, or 61,000 offi-
cers and men front the amount rit the force last year.,
Be this reductiOn in the number of men there would
be a reduction in the amount of the supplies
for this year to the extent of 1,800,006. %%The-
.
ther the extent of this reduction would give' antis-
faction to all, be Would not venture to say ; but
at le;;.st he %.,as sure that to a mejority'of the House
it would appear satisfactory. At least ifibeived,
that in the interval between the last Session of
J'arliament and the present, his Majesty's
eters had not been inattentive to the sufferings of
th.e nation, but had lent all their efforts to make
such reductions in the military estahlishMent as
would materially reduce the public expenditure,
end thus not only sooth the feelings, but alleviate
the distresses of the people, Aedmitions such
those which he had mentioned could not be ea3ily
or quickly made., It was not a glance of Ott eye,
or it stroke of the pen, that was sufficient to effect
them. When the nature and extent of our min-
tory establishments, was bonsidered ; when it was
remembered that they were scattered' through our
settlements in every quarter of the world, it would
he allowed chat it tetpOred the most laborious and
piitient examination on the part, of his Majesty's
Government ti) . enable them to submit to the
House the reductions which he had mentioned.
le would be seen by referring to, the 25th pnge'of
the Second Reoort of the Finance Committee to
what eetent the military force of the country had

been reduced within the last two years anti a ball.
At the end of 1814 (which was the earliest time
at which the work of reduction could have been
cononcoced), the amount of the whole military
force of the country was 228,594 mt.!), Last year
the umuunt of the force kept up was 99.000 men
for the general service; including the Colo-
nies, 30,000 for our army France, and 20,000
for Great Britairi and Ireland. For the present
year the aminunt .would he as follows,
830,000 men for the general service, including the
Colonies; 20,326 for the arnsy in France, and
17,360 for Great Britata and Ireland. It would
be hardly necessary for bins to recapitulate the
different stations on which these were employed:
%Vic!) respect to the derails of_ the reduction, the
following were the most prominent statements :
The Guards had not thisyear been exempted from
bearing their share in the reduction ; for from
each company in the ,Guards there had been a re-
duction of one sergeant and ten men. The total
number of men reduced front the regiments of
the line in,the last year were taken at 13,000.
The expenses of the recruiting department for
this year were taken at 130,0001. lets than they
were last year. In the Staff, great reductions
had also- been made. In this department two
hundred and fifty-seven officers were reduced. The
public departments and offices were those in which
' the least reductions bad been made ; and it was
easy to explain why they were the branches of the
public service in which reduction at this time was
least practicable. The whole amount of the re-
, ductions in the public offices was between 19,0001.
and 20,0001., When the nature of these - 'Offices
was considered---when it was considerad thot.the
very process of reduction for the tit*c increased
the amount of bus4,ess in these departments, it
would be admitted that these were not. the de-
payments in Which the greatest reductions
could be• expected. In the office of the
,Com-
mander-in-Chief particularly, there was a s;ource
of business which perhaps could not be con-
sidered as likely to be permanent, but yet
which W 45 for the tiine occasioned by the
process of reduction. Many officers fit for ser-
vice being placed upon half-pay, feeling their ca-
pacity for the public service, naturally came for-
ward and submitted their claims to be employed
to the Commander in Chief. He was sure the
House would,sympathise in the situation of these
persons.---(Haar, hear; hear I)—And he was also
sure that the Holise would not carry the reduc-
tions so far as even to deprive the Commander in
Chief of attending to such claims, and giving the
claimants at least the poor ststisfactiou of know-
ing that their claiets.were not treated with neglect.
The Committee would see by the statement iu the
Report of the Committee of Finance, that cousi,
dernble reductions were made in his (Lord Pal-
nrerston'S) department. But as to that branch
of the department in which the Correspondence
was conducted, there could not be any reduction
at all. Tine number of letters. of authority and
of warrants inserted in the books . of the Office
afforded the best criterion.as to this. Its the year
ending the 17th of March, 1791, the number of
letters in his department was 7004 ; in the year :
ending its March, 1800, tbe number was 14,703;
in the year ending in March, 1816, it wa5.92,320;
in the year ending in March, 1817, tlie number
had increased to 105,904. .§o far, therefore, as
reduction could he founded on the diminution of
_business, it would be allowed that at least iu this
department the reduction could not yet be made.
The number of Clerks in. the %Yar-Otlice hatl.also
been considerably reduced. Among others, he
stated, that the number of Clerks, of the highest
class, had been reduced from six to tour. A
miler reduction.was made in the second elass.The
Chief Inspector.ot the Foreign Branch, who had
a salary of 1,995/, a-year, was. also reduced. Se-
veral Clerks in minor departments bad been re-
duced,, and, besides, several vacancies occurring,
Irons death or resignation, had not been filled up.
On the whole of this department, compared with
last year, there was a reduction in the expense to
;the amount of 5,921,0001. In the Adjutant. Ge.
nerel's deparstuent there was a reduction to the
extent Of 30001. In the Quarter•Master-Genes
rag's Department 1736/. In the Department of
the Commissary-General of Musters 17141. In
the Volunteers there was • a reduction to the
amount at' 34071.' In the Military .College there
was a reduction of 55641. As to this. item, he
was bound to notice the very handsome conduct
of the Governor of. that College, who, When
.called upon to state what reductions-could be
made in that department, began by drawing dais
pen through 500/. a-year, tine allowance Of his
own table. certainly was only such conduct
as was to be expected by those who knew the
character of the gallant Officer. In the suns for
:pay of Generul.thiicers,sthere was a diminution
,of 3620/. which arose front the casualties during
the year. Since 181.4, when the arrangement
now acted upon with respect to.the pay of Gene-
ral Officers was introduced, 54 General Officers
bad died. it was intended, pursuant to the Res
.port of the Committee. of Finance, to altee, the,
arrangement, by -Which- there were. asisn, ttreS
rates of pay for General Officers,. by assimilat.
,ing the pay of Generals and Lieutenant-Ganes
,rats, insteattof having as now one rate for.Ma-
jor-Generals, .one for Lieutenant-Generale, and
ft: third for Generals. It was intended for the
future that' officers promoted to the rank of Oe,
nerds should not receive the mullioned pay till
the whole number of General Officers was reduced
to 120, which was intended to be the number
to which the permanent establishment would be
limited. in the Estimates for the present year,
those , for the different garrisons were separated
from the Staff, Under the second of foor classes
into which he'liad- divided the, military establish..
meats, namely, that which included the half-pay
and pensions, there was an increase In the preseut
year to the amount (4958,0001. ; the obvious cause
of which was the reductions which had 1, ta,eu place,
thirdelass•t here was,a reduction of 238,000/.
In consequence of the Report of the Committee of
Finauce, a. new, arraugement was proposed with
respect to pensions and allowances to wounded
Officers. He would take leave to say, that he did
not entirely approve of a new arrangement. Ac-
cording to that now acted upon, the amount Of the
pension increased , with the. rank, Of the officer.
What was now intended was, that all officers for
the future should received the pension only for

the rank which the.) hell at the titne they receiva
ed the wound. •There had been an increase in
the allowances for superannuittions in Exchequer
fees ; there was 'a diminution in the present year
to the extent of 92,0001. The Irish Barracks, and
the Irish Commissariat, were not included in the
F4itilliatCS for the present year. On a general
view of the amount of the whole Estimates, there
was a diminution of 1,800,0001. as combitied with
the last year. The total amount of the Estimates
for the present year was 6482,000/.,, From this,
however, was to be deducted the seductions which
were now in progress and would be completed in
the course of the year, and the amount would
then be 6,385,0001. But of this sum again it was
to be considered, that a great part was required
to the third class, which included the remunera-
tion of past services, and which amounted to about
-2,591,000/. leaving the total amount of the Esti-
mates for the active services of the present year,
3,794,0001. for the Ist class. In 1783, the amount
of the Estimates for active services was 3,059,0001.
and in 1791, after several years of profound peace,
it was 1,626,0001. %Viten it was considered that
the amount of the soldier's pay was doubled since
1791, and that the colonies and possessions of the.
kingdom were now so much more extensive than
they then were, it would not be wondered that-the
Estimates of this year were now only about
509.0001. more than double what they were in
1791. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the
Si st Resolution, '' That a number of men, not
exceeding 121,035 for Land Forces, be voted fur
the service of his Majesty in the present year."
Mr. CALCRAFT thought the torce proposed much
too large• for the circumstances of the country.
With respect to the Report of the Finance Cdm-
mittee, as he did not become a member of that
Committee. until after the Second Report was
drawn up, he did not hold himself responsible for
any part of that Report ; and, he could not help
observing, as to that Report, that it was very ex-
traordinary that establishments should be voted, •
or their amount determined, before the statement
• of the probable income of the year was laid before
•
the House. In 1792, all the serVices •now to be
performed, were performed by 40,000 less than
the number now required, excluding the force in
France. lie did' not mean to say that the esta-
blishment of 1792 was capable of performing the
• services now required. But Ministers were at
least bound to spew the reason for so prodigious
en increase: With respect to the Colonies, he
could not help observing with satisfaction, that the
numbers tallied completely with those he himself
had proposed as sufficient ...last year ; though he
was then told that no reduction could be made.
' In more than five or six instances the present
numbers tallied with what be had then proposed ;
so that Ministers had adopted the opinions of
! himself and his friends ;, but, on this occasion, be
must say, they were a full year in arrear of their
duty, as they ought to have made thOse very de-
ductions a year ago. No doubt next year they
would find, that what they think impossible now
Call he done then. For the considerable reduc-
tions that had already been made, the country
• wets, in his opinion, indebted•to the firmness of the
House in refusing the Income Tax nod the
• Malt ' Tax, • and also to -the debates on the
Army Establishment. If it bad not been for the
discussions that had taken place, though appa-
-1 rently disregarded at the time, he was conviuced
that we should not have seen the reduced esta-
blishments of the present day, but which, es taken
at 140,000 men, be still thought too high. The
Gentlemen opposite ought to explain why this
force is necessary. There were 17,000 Yeomanry
Cavalry in addition to this large force, merely for
the service of Great Britain. In 1792 a force of
12,000 men was found amply sufficient. How
Caine it that the country was in so different a
'state now as to require such an addition ? it was
known that the grievances of the people arose
very much frOnt the burthens of taxation; and if
• this amount of force wee to be kept up, it must
be seen that it would be impossible to diminish
these burthens. Now, if Gentlemen thought
that a large military establishment was better than
• to relieve the public front their burthens, he must
beg leave to say that he totally differed from them.
Believing, however, that still farther reductions
• were in progress, be should trot go into minute
details at present; but there were one or two
topics which he could not help touching on.—
The first was, the 'subject of Foreign Half-pay.
Many foreign Officers who received half-pay were
now in .Hanover on full pay and in actual service.
He thought this a most improvident regulation,
and one which ought to be corrected. Another
topic was the Half-pay Officers reduced before the
24th June, 1814. Their case was extremely bard,
as being limited' to the old rates of half-pay; and
thus a partiality, or preference was strewn to fo-
reign Officers who had served in our Army. It
did not appear to hiin that the reductions bad
been sufficiently extensive *in the public
depart-
ments connected with the Army. He did not
think that of the Commander-in-Chief likely to
be sufficiently !reduced; hqt kie would pros 141,g)"
Ministeta the necessity of reducing that, and every
is a it allotler
department, to the lowest possible rate that
compatible with the business they have to
transact. If he savVany chance of being suort-
ed, he should move for a considerable reducpptiOn
to be made in the present established force, as be-
ing too large for the 'circumstances of the coon-
try. He hoped the Noble Loid would yet give
some explanation. of the necessity of maintaining
So large a force.
Mr. Lvyreetote recommended strongly to the
attention of the Noble Lord (Palmers'ou), and of
his Majesty's Government, the propriety of re-
lieving the numerous class .of Half-par Officers
from the obligation to the affidavit, by which they'
were unable to receive ball-pay, and at the same
time hold any civil or other military allowance.
There might have been some reason formerly, but
its injustice at present was not orilflbvious, but
bore with-great severity on that.valuable class. A
trifling addition to their income, by the holding •
of a small office to the amount of 1001. or 501. a-
year, would have, the effect of rescuing many of
!Ahem - from penury, and could. not, increase the
burdens of the country.
General WALPOLU adverted to the great increase
in the Colony of Jamaica, compared with the es- ,
tablishment in 1792.
Mr. Wanes observed, that the regiments of

re
estimated
1 I littfraiesoen ristdGetionotittieuelhdabli the war.
asdeaftsta::aB:rffr6lll.s4
41)111: ite.lllllHlvneitoatißm7l:l:lllo:2,3ePv,asaltieltvanhvls'te'tisi:lC:ustsoairleklifocleochnenrseimilei:iSrl:4l;ll)!lokirret:ol:t:
i'
was 17,0001..--it 110%17 was estimated at 7404
These very considerable oilditione stood in geed
deed of explanation. iVith respectio the
s'
(:°"
passionate Fund, so well applied in diffe
%teusing
lief to such a number of claimants, liar
posed to thir.k that the Noble Lod,
Welds
in toiil
30001. for future demands, might have
the grant.
Lord PALMitasTnN,
Honourable Gentleman Nnlr.rCePallYcralstaililit'adtlittaitedll
Majesty's Ministers a little ungratefully, in
1
tug it klgt§illSl then) as censorable, that they
adopted his suggestions with respect to the eilt.'
mate for the Garrison Department. /§§ I°P.
Hanoverian °Seers,' this .country could not,to
!ploy thenranyAonger, and the pay they recto'
in “41)0Ver was about equal to the hill•pel
this country. .His Lordship then went over 10.,
various objections niiich had been urged by.*
rent Members, contending flog they trey
established by the coinparison between the rel.;
Establishment of 1792 and that of the Pr'!.
time. •
Sir R. FaRGUSSoft wished to call the ettelt,„);
of the House to the treatment of tetu'v/
000
C°rll!. He stated that in Fort Chorles $1 be
were stationed,, and in two years .520 ,11.11.4,
had, been infli4ted by order of Courts Mart!.`,4,o
(Hear, hear !)_4le ascribed ibc bad staid
,or vt
of
ciptine which gave rise to this terrible eobntiot
onnishment to the fact of the Beittillentfeot
kept in the West Indies for sal' I ' .1,04114
of
fkeY etlatrissisilbtiellethientob lires
had cast caaGeneral
tttten,PhitetHia:mdPPeesrfi ttteillt:le7o;l;:leiteticitritatici:;;Nlenis:4l4eob:tii°lll::9:ll:o,:teeer:llcilkt°ll,ol:ef::l?..
of his Royal 'Highness the Doke of Ir''tt.
mimic!:
Sir R. PiRGLISoN disavowed any intento to]
(itoi
kind imputed to him. Ile merely uill'''"
the abuse, that it might be remedied. , .10001
Lord Nuottwr contended that the Di'
oottil
were greater than the necessities of the cis'oe id!
required, and he could not consent to P
too,/'
.oPbcniAuevcßetwriaginiNts
thoughtthtie) hands of a set °f fae!)l tt
Motifes be distrusted,. and whose
was very far (rem subscribing to. princip4t
,0
cuorguentry
should,„ wait, till the state of the Fuoince'esr, ,"start
The Ho
fore them, when it peshaps 'ight lope,
whatea e r was the necessity tor a large 110 11100'„,, thl
IpeunilY then''l ntch fs:ol:sll:trrhy°wlt'ict'lee,":tr.u°l:''llvi;
tile thEAsttirrs•tit(T! hllliesti ii:ll:l,,hu'rl',l
abolitiont
receivingleh aneiloliragnf hall-pay.
incSluirilin
.iesty's Ministers 1 t his
'4l'
meats:al
called
t:oreo frompo required three limes I tioleild,.l
ign service, and also for Fatglowl Itirt,ti,sehic'
had been of 0;
WM.g ButtnouGus remarked, 0104.4010 t
the
demandedii enrattrayt oilhbeotchlokir'''',, forto
scar: ~olied
, goo. v` to
Mr;Gotit.auart• said, that if do ;I 11106,b,
man had had the advantage of lte'rho t0i1,,.,
Ject'' last .Yearo,and also fro's', We° 40001. I
denten who now sat around that Gel'i'idt Os'
, it
Pres Pot moment, he would not haveditoKLio
against the proposed militant einiu,ll: coll'tts in
tleolastoside of the Hotisc,l
~f to ~.to.
review of the establishments for "1004 'to,
1792 i and those now proposed, c.,w° eery Pt
ctaGballigape:Sdalnreiliptnr*blOrsee:lfteievsinisitealmointinmitet.teninida:ap:olontolinictietynoa:;:ntteslcngxjtor:ollll(lrinlget,nsiv;le)„:lrl-I:::Clict''lliatillieli,i'lli‘jilsll
Lord CAITLIIRSAGH proteoten ea—b, thev•oo
~,
aops irftc:eraplsoupefseficoit iitrioatttiti:F:tleonosttitrissheitaittnt 1187 atBestg Nltilii:nelysstteilrillistilth°i°ll:tielfLon4:l:llooliii,
ii•ich tv"td
, so 1 pp!
rof the House could be•taken. /le bets
• 'Of nuin j 0(1
mm and
aasdseM.
iiilpiTtellikadoninennd:ll.l yhiVna°tt:wwis clioll;etprneeeteriran:::::::::1111111:ifc 1 t;:°:; I il;:11
planation need be given►were th° flotOe ill
' the i Sig
and Ireland. As to the latter, tofit . viol
141, I
Hon. Frieintsdrn, sint;itl7t iithweolult;tbineeo:o7.l(e,i:4
to go into it again. • Then as __ltt 00,
were 26 thousand men, three thou"'; to becalm
isolo r
were for relief, leaving 23 tho' „of oat i thl
banally drawn upon tor the suPPI torcl,odi
vc ,r_
flies ; so that in fact the effective
of DviPoDC
, country applicable to the purrs' 0 ora"foote
out not to be taken at more tbaii 17,,
olie
men. Reference had been nretilie ;ace, spiiii‘l:l Alit
which great changes' bad ta .
.tue or . ,itot
more than in the organization 0t,...1"the I/01r;
the former period, our two' .1"00 111.:log 1,1
Lad - Da Stif,—, ty a 1111#1-140--Col ot 101: 0•1,
such as had since had the glut Y._ 0,1, soil
1 ochicverio soo at,,
army for unexampled betwea tboe ;
therefore, not a comparison 0 c.. 0; in.
_o79'
Staff, but between Skutt' and 11
ett7i:,,,:rri1,:,,,,,,,,0:0;
mate of the expense betweel
and the present ; nor %vele tl:sted to el ,
stances of the country calculi tileo, 100
tsoarnga sers.tdi meegAeruet:hgao4tfrrtcre°3ananni d:lfe:tiF;rirl'e°l:::bi si e“:vliocr!rldlue°l's .'lt.gs,lll'1inetl
in
tlthipeirrop°oPsPi°tisoitrai7 osb6i tesu''lo%-eflito:iellab"yr.tuiCo);:ic",'Vf.e:
tint) to gratify the Noble
,P.tot thOt"ony 01.1:0
later stage of the measure i'Dord oarobjecu,',o(
duce& Neither the Noble to the 35vw
opeer ) vote odg'
person- had given au i port t,„l an 00
that the House vvas collet. n. 44,vv-
men now for purposes p100.,..,0(i5e
quote in 1792. to which 000tle;
eel tbe —le or I". 00
Lord CASTLARCAGIi bertg traub 1400'
, lf the rol y
man would' not give lonise
loco g at,
aom
joatiiiognihr the subject in nr,
Ivo 0 yoetoif:Pbt:
tended, 000 ply
Mr. 13eoirouos ee°,;,, nojoin ressoo 114
force in the United r>.i.:roight.wer ttlteali
35,000 men, the estinroch 110 yee4lo.°
expected to be bronyllloo, i
to sot li4
'were at present. In atitn nitableff
there were magistrates, e9'
a 1,..

Hlllitilettire.th'e'peoiee—, e;cl wire'net these
1044,11 ,9P -
'.,t, Ee I Must every thing. be
I ti
laliers i • Why Was the-CnillitiY 1W he
.41-41, lyibust,be-doubled, because the yen•
iil:4loltliers could onlf be trusted! . Was
.Nelt of that triun lit, in consicpienee
they had'carried up Addresses of Con-
illi " Was; this the consequence of the
.I.,llbeasts they had heard of the peaceful
r,,,k!li the Noble Lord 'at the Congresel
km my h
vtiiiii.., had heard on this subject, were
10140e,ealled urn to vote such, an army
iiii• a •,e_. .I..urd hat proposed to keep up ?
iiir!9tYnow to be Jeered, as they had
:161i$11..ehate, when they spoke of the pre-
ss Olie of profound Peace ? Whatever
liti of the additional force required to
'vt: Colonial acquisitions, there was
tcthis question from the ground on
44 been placed by his 'Hon. Friend
r1)o No good reafion could. be shewn
40 Men should he voted in 1817
121104 e duties which' in' 1792- it was
"ItitiC no more than 44,100.---•
74an'td. which had been taken by
„Friend, anti those Opposed to
.4tterliPtell to make him budge from
, !eagle' the discipline" of our ariny'had
h improved, as he rejoiced to say it
`,double
_the number-of men were
lorinctpaiticillar service that were
for. He should have expected, that
tittentfewer men rathe;-than more
wanted The state of profound
which- the country was at pre-
t;ty the call made for a large mil.
itiVeivere danger, which be'cle'.
teas, let
additional constables be
te Pane conaitatus be called out-
1. retorted, to, in order . to secure
Let Eaglishmen have. recourse
tion of their country in time of
liished to prove themselves wor-
011slitution. For Ireland, it was
I force could not be kept up than
Sett last year, and which it was
'hands was necessary. He, how'
4:oinon, what had been done to re-
?lv* of Ireland since that periOd.
Sk if nothing could be effected to
„,'lt .country hut by means of an
"atktinded, that
by making the pro-
in matters of religion, much
4* required for Ireland might be

"at then agreed to. The other
teft moved, and carried with-

wished to know tin
*I tohrlng what day the
up the Report.
40N replied to-marrow.
.„ -
‘,.'iersation took place on this sun
"emietnen of the Oppof ition bay-
it should be taken on Wecities,.,la,Y'
,lettieti that the Report show!
the
.0 time first meutioned i and
r.
' relinneti, it was ordered to be e (tr,,y.
tial• Is.
Committee,
,f. 7, DM went through a
... to
allItor"1161) was recei‘ed, avid
ii,),rt,l,eitt_tn
't tee consideration on Lii . ).
iii. A
IPrb:ert af the Day were titeit disposed
te 24100111 cl at half-past Twelve.
11„--...641......
‘kiSE OF LORDS.
14
It.
1.......0...
'Lli 1t44, ,
of
Illipi:, Seeing the Noble Secretary.
:tbe' !yet ' adverted to his intention of
tl-041,)r,r;Ninctioit of the Correspondence
,1414t1;),11,1tillg Magistrates of the Count));
t1,41t1) ;`able Viscount. He meant n(
i,lrinte "'flyer'', but gave notice that he
!‘)tik tht4lVll. early day. He would nob%
iikil 14 ir4ble Secretary, whether t
It 4tied to had taken place ?
ika tettov
tto+, !_tt replied 'in the alfirmative.
let,illtdu'lqsiled to know, whether ctr_
1/44114
h.rt)t been pat by those Magistrates
tlit4l of State i .
4tbko
ittehilTst attic!, that some questions
viittit - put to him by
et. the visiting Ma-
y were duly answered
t., . .
411) 41110).1
.4‘, of how---o QuEsno:sr.
at!tivt tigUOtilifoßE re-stated his in-
-I,"eatt il:t the Petitions, which he hod
'11(t) toil` '.torn the Irish Catholics, should
itriteivlt.,thieration on Friday next.
ii*: ille On presented a petition from a
14: 44111sitil:frlina ii,thabitants of the counties.
•41sittst l'", which being read, tip i tt4 the enactment of any legisla-
.4, 4114 ,/,he subject of the Cathode
lit h slitlig the measure of the Veto,
• htoit
.41th the principles of their re-
'',* 11,41 t „
IN'ilv ti, took occasion to remark, that
4 tiklit tiPilills MO the concurrence of
44 le met'
Catholics.
ith„ 4• de_ .
unit il.ling such a serious diire-
that tile" 14e an important considera-
ti. 'l.4.the Petition, with the names of
tt rein t,
~
, 4,, .ue plaited.
.1141.11/4`iirsteriC4tel,l stiell tt proceeding ; the
tip Nii,. 4t hitely tile
,o ono meastwe content-
th„litt ~ ante would he sent up from
16
thle 'he genet,
)tition, it waa avowed,
' 'vli
1, tii 1d sense of the Eng hi di
Ni riilt 1 hat o .
NI 1044
~ ?Lan to present any new
it, 1144 leis year, as they had for-
,t isle,
!ild 41Irett 'dy adherence to their last
•n °tint " to the '
I the 81. . approaching ge.Jr Not)i It Ueet, which would be
able Lords to deliver their _

li‘e't
Put ikto.
44,1 the ..Rt./.0,,
there vas no
ypti J0i,,,, - stated
t titrd 'ills
ktuv, a
411, Ufa petition
i4lt 144 "bAerved lo that
414 file eQf the that it was
ty Mteifi I'llt eii Legislaturer', to con-
-9i tilt )r the b. tonle and salutary
to ii: h'ire , "elfBre and I, • i
et the "Peciall., 0 aPPnless
‘ et
ver..
.I,y il u measure
Nil tae. 7vt Ala of the Cm).
tilt vtsatio_
ii,__, 11. enStieti
'." 04 bo. n this sub.
uoughmore and

Lott!' tbe. spe(tri,•
which 1)41.6(311o. restill.

CIRCUI.4WLIO;TIiIt OF VISCOUNT sitimourt-r.
Barf GREY, rose to bring forward leis promised
motion relative to this subject (he prefaced it with
a speech of very extraordinisry.leugth, but of which
our restricted limits confine us to a very brier and
general sketch), observing, that what he had to
submit to the consideration of the House, though
• merely a legal question, was one which involved
-points of the greatest constitutional importance,
its seriously rtffectiug the freedom of the Press,
and the personal freedom of individuals. He re-
gretted, that with reference to topics of this kind,
the character of Parliament had materially changed
• from what it formerly was: of late years it seem-
ed more anxious to add to the power and influence
of the Crown, the increase of the Revenue, and
of the military force. Adverting to the particu-
lar subject of discussion, he said that the opinion
of his- Mijesty'SLaw Officers, as refer-red to in
the Circular Letter of the NOble Viscount (Sid-
mouth),•bad very propel ly been communicated to
the House ;• but lie would now move,
.in order to
complete the'conimunication, that a statement of
the case upon which that opinion was founded.,
should also be laid before their Lordships, in or-
der to Strew upon What gronnds such opinion was
called. for, .and if the real case was fairly brought
before the Law Officers of the Crown. lie had
to request the most serious attention of their
Lordships to 'what would transpire in the- dis-
cussion, as it may constitute the foundation of
some future proposition to be submitted. The
proceeding which , gave rise to the present
motion he could. not , but regard as a most
extraordinary procedure on the part of the
Executive Government, as directly instructing
the Magistrates as to the pertormanee of an
important part of their jadicial duty. As the
Noble Earl proceeded in his discussion, he referred
largdy,and read copious extracts from the writings
and decisions of the most estOblished English law
&uthorities ; the general drift of his legal argu-
ment being to establish, that the ordinary
Ma-
gistrates or Justices of the Peace possessed no
such legal power as they were assumed to be
vested with in the Circular Letter of. the Noble
Secretary of State. .Even from. the opinion re-
ferred to itself, it appeared that, previously to
the 4Stli of the King, there were strong doubts
as to the existence of such a legal power even in a
Judge. He felt warranted in contending, that
the Act in queat ion did not give such a power ge-
nerally to the Judges, and still more, he must
protest against the existence of such a legal power,
as was claimed generalls for all Justices of the
Peace, to decide what was or was not a libel
(whien.was the most difficult polio iu the whole
system of the law), and upon their opinions of
the cases, to exact bail from any titan who was
concerned in the publications in question. He
had no difficulty in stating, from the best exami-
nation be was able to give to all the great law
authorities of the realm, that,lie could not find any
such power distinctly states), as that now claimed
kir Justices of the l'eace. No power of the kind
was inferable from,;the letter of the commission of
R Justice of the Peace. In the opinions of Lord
Coke, no such power wits delegated to interior
Magistrates, even on suspicion of felony itself ;
as it militated against Magna Charta. The au-
thorities of Hass kins, Chief Justice. Hale, and
Mr. Justice Blackstone, were more or less to the
same effect : in their opinions, the power of these
Magistrates were expressly lintiteil to cases of fe-
lony, treason, and breach of the peace. The sen-
timents of the last mentioned were in fact an ex•
tension of the opinion of Serjenat Hawkins upon
the point, In the opinion of Chief Justice Holt,
the powers of those Magistrates, even in cusses of
Highs Treason, were nut -given to them by Sta-
. tutu, butt by Common Law, as authorized Conser-
vators of the Peace; and Lord Coke seemed to en-
tertain a similar opinion. But the Noble Lord
dwelt with most force, and at greater length, ou
the consideration of the celebrated proceedings
which took place before Lord Conict), in the
case of Mr. Wilkes. The decision of that most
learned and revered Lawyer was, lie contended,
in support of what he advanced, though the
Case respected a warrant of the Secretary of State.
He should next state the authority of Lord Mans-
field. That eminent Judge laid it down that an
Act of Parliament was necessary to render Cheats
amenable to two Magistrates. But this offence
was of the sum'e class as that of libel. He was
aware that it might be contended that because the
Secretary of State possessed this power it must also
belong to the Justices. 8010 prove this, it should
be shewn that both offices were synonimotts, as
administrator and executor. The fact was, ilow-
ever, different. The Secretary of State was a high
officer, invested with a power of the most solemn
and extensive kind, and subject to a rigid Parlia-
mentary•responsibility. He begged not to be un-
derstood its deprecatingabe Magistrates of this
country. He entertained the highest respect for
them, and should always support them in his
place jo parlhoueut. He most readily con-
fided power to their hands, but he saw no reason
for going beyond the exigency of the time, and
the fair import of • the law. A case recently be-
fore the King's Bench, under the Stanup Act, and,
therefore
,exclusively the province of the Attorney-
General, yet taken cognizance of by a Magis-
trate, tinder the instructions, as he understood, of
the letter of the Noble Viscount,' proved how
liable this power was to be übil,ed• heir Lord-
ships would remember, when his Noble Friend
. (Lord Erskine), and one of the greatest lawyers,
not practising the profession, that ever lived, Mr.
Fox, laboured in Parliament to carry the Libel
Bill. NVhat were the arguments in opposition to
them ?—The incompetence of Juries to decide
what was or was not libel. Happily this principle
had been overthrown ; but be trusted none who
employed the argument then wonid now come
forward and maintain the competence -of Jus-
tices of the Peace to define what constituted
libel. He wailful appeal to the Noble and Learned
Lord upon the woolsack, whether he had not of-
ten been perplexed in the course of his official life
at the bar, to decide upon publications brought
to him as fit subjects for prosecution. The dis-
tinction between the Secretary of State, 011 a Jus-
tice, is to be found in Lord Camden, when he
Observes, that this power olcommitting for libel,
came to the furtuer he knew not how-m-not from

- - -
j .11 arra irl; aro -!ta
icas oi tat leaee !!.air power, hot osi-.
ginally„ in all likel.ilood, per mancialum
F.,%..en in spite of notorious wiage, general warraots
were cot:denoted by Lord Mansfield, Mr. JUstiee
Yates, and Lord Chief Justice Wilmot. Lord
Camden is of the same Opiuion, Awl calls sties, a
practice the stibmisstou of gitilt and poverty to il-
legal power. He would not say with a Noble Lord
on a former occasion, that a lawyer's opinion a as
given for a fee ; but lie would say with Lord Cam-
den, " is the law, as laid down (in the opinion)
to be found in the books of authority—for if not
--theft it is not law ;" and if it was the law be-
fore, he would ask egain why the Attorney-Ge-
neral of that day laboured to pass the 48th of the
King ? 'Here was the opinion of the Attorney-
General on his side of the question. On tie
whole, he contended that there 'was no foundation
for the exercise of this power now claimed by
Magistrates. But whet he particularly condemned
was, the interference of the Secretary of State on
this occasion. There never was an act more de-
Serving the jealousy of Parliament than't he act of
the Executive Power interfering with Niagistretes
in the discharge of their duty. Nothing could he
more unconstitutional than the act of the Secretary
of State interpreting the law to the Magistrates.
He not only put the Magistrates in the execution
of the law, but undertook to explain and interpret
the law. Nothing, he maintained, could be more
dangerous. It was at this time more so than at any
other. Here the Noble Earl alluded to the case
of a man prosecuted at Liverpool on a chnrge of
having 'preached a blaspheMous doctrine. He
said he had seen and read the sermon preached by
that person, and he could not discover in it any
denial of a future state, as had been alledged.----
(Heat', hear !)--The only denial was against a
separate state of existence for the soul. This
was the opinion of the late Dr. Priestley, a
• man highly estimable ; it was the opinion of
sects who were tolerated in this country;
therefore it could not be a fit subject for a
prosecution. Another case of illegal stretch
of power had recently occurred, which prov-
ed still more clearly the danger of that in-
terference to whii:b he alluded. He had seen
in the public papers (and they were his only
authority) an account of a criminal information
, having been moved, on ,Friday lust, against a Ma-
gistrate, ior most oppressive and tyranniCal con-
duct, founded on the directions contained in the
letter of the Secretary of State a and for having
exercised au euthority under the Stamp Laws
which did not belong to him. By the exercise of
such powers as these, the habits as well as the
constitution of the people would be changed, and
if we proceeded much longer in this course,
either the people would be driven to resistance, or
the Government, in order to sustain itself, must
be armed with a military despotism. Amidst all
the distresses of the times, the hopes of getting
through them most be in .ro strict' adherence to
the principles of the Constitution, and a reliance
on the loyalty and attachment of the people. Lie
then concluded with moving—
" That a Copy of the Case upon which the opinion of his
Majesty's Law OdiCer4, referred to in the Circular LettPt of
Viscauut Siamouth; was given, he laid hafore the House."
Lord ELLabilloltouGti could assure their Loril-
*hips, not withetaatsliag the research which had
been manifested by the Noble Earl, that the au-
thority given to Magistrates respecting libels had
met with the fullest and most impartial investiga-
tion, And was built upon such .a foundation, that
he had no hesitation in saying, that it was per-
fectly legal. The question was, whether a Justice
of the Peace might hold to bail upon a case of
libel, and this he wns certain Justices were com-
pletely authorised in doing. Taking for the
grounds of his opinioa the grave and venerable
authorities which bad in several instances been
adduced even by the Noble •Earl himself, Lie could
nut doubt but that it would be allowed, that the
opinion was as well founded as it could be. First,
he should refer to the respectable authority of my
Lord Hale, who had stated, that Justices of the
Peace might issue 'their warrants for the appre-
hension of persons charged of crimes witoin
the cognizance, of the Sessions, and binding
them over to keep the peace, &e. Now, if any
person should take that passage of his Lordship's
opinion and read it, what conclusion would
they come to ? Certainly, that a libel was an of-
fence Cognizable. by
.the Sessions. He should
then refer to the very snore authority which had
been quoted by the Noble Earl, Hawkins's Pleas
of the Crown. There it was stated, that a Magis-
trate might convict torbigh treason, for a breach
of the peace, &c. Now, what was, a libel ?
Though not a forcible breach of the peace, it was
evidently a breach of the peace byact and in reality.
The only question seemed therefore to be, and
that was what would never for a moment be doubt-
ed, whether libel was au offence coining under the
cognizance of the Quarter Sessions. Lord
Camden, if thin-mighty examined, would' be
found also to be really an authority io fa-
vour of the poWer being granted to Justices;
for he stated such .offenees to he under the
cognizance of Coniervatora of the Peace. What
would the country do without some such power as
that which bad been given to Magistrates ? Were
persons to be allowed to disturb and inflame the
public mind for many months without being brought
to justice, or without a chance of their being for
some considerable time prevented from publishing
seditious libels. The country would not be secure
without some such mode of protection, and he
wondered that any Noble Lord could for a moment
even imply any thing against such a power. It
was a necessary power which the moot y required
for its good government, and if there had not
been such authority for such a power to May
gistrates, he would not have thought that House
justified in adjourning even is single day without
passing ionic Bill for granting such a power. With
respect to Mr. Wilkes's case, he should say a
word upon what had been dropped by the Noble
Earl. it had been said that that Gentleman hall
not been guilty of a breeCh of privilege of Parlii-
went ; and why / Because what he bad been
guilty of did net amount to an actual breach of
the peace, butt it bail never been stated that Mr.
Wilkes ought not to be held to bail fora libel.
With all the authorities which he had stated,
with the authority of Hale, ,Lord Camden, Mr.
Sedeaut Hawkins, and with the number of wit- ,

recognizance! which he had pro.
thiccd, tor so long a period, he could not belii
daring it as his opinion, that there wes a very
great toundation for the opin;on which 1 ad been
stated, anti he conceived it the most necessary
and the most beneficial measure, that in the pre-
sent titneii could have been adopted.
Lord ERSKINii said, that no man could enter.
twin towards the Noble Lord (Ellenborough) 4
more friendly disposition than lie did himself.
Ni. person could hold- his legal ' knowledge
in higher estimktion ; but upon the present
occasion he felt himself hound to dissent, from
the opinions of the Noble Lord, anti he telt
confident that the practice in subjects of libel
would bear hint out in that dissent. During the
French Revolution, a time when much danger %vas
apprehended from seditious pi•aet ices in this emit).
try, every part of it was inundated by libels.
Whatever evidence was brought forivaid during
that period, at the Old Bailey, upon the stihjecr tit
those libels, referred tosuch as %.‘ere hciun!ly pub-
Halted. 'there were libels tried there at that time

collected from all parts of the country; aCol in
no one case was a person held to bail after au
arrest by a Justice of the Peace. The Society for
the Suppression of Vice never proceeded against
any nelson arrested and held to bail by a Justice
of the Peace for the publication of a blasphemous
libel. The question now was, how the common
law stood upon the subject.—[Here the Noble
Lord read a passage front Lord Hale, to prove
that at Justice of the Peirce could not hold to bail
for every offence within, the cognizance of a Ses-
sion.)—They'were here upon the plain law of the
land. If the Secretary of State considered the
case so clear, what necessity was there for taking
the opinions of the Law Officers of the Mown ?
The Officers, in the opinion delivered by them,
were guided merely by their own judgment...—.
They did not state that there were any legal de-
cisions upon the case. They offered no grionuls
for their deci,;ions. But even though practice
might be offered in support of svlit had been
done, this was not sufficient. Lord Camden
said that practice, ever since the Revolution, did
not constitute common Jaw unless supported by
legal decision. Surely the miterable creatures
who went about hawking these seditious or blas-
phemous papers could nut belookedupon as guilty
of lib:de, and held to bail by every Magistrate
who may think pioper to arrest them. This wits
never Ilse case, even during the French
tion. The Judges themselves, wit:.out a Jury,
had not power to decide as to what was and what
was' not a libel, and yet that power was now given
to every Magistrate hoot proof—without Judge
or Jury. It was highly improper mud uneoustitu7
ti-inal that the Secretary of State should inter.tere
%ich the Megistrates, and direct them as to what
they were to consider libellous. During all the
time that he had acted as Counsel for certain so.
eieties in this country, he never su,pected that
Magistrates had the power of itrtesting and hold•
ing to bail for libel, nor did he know it to be.done
In a.singleltistance.
The Loan CHAtCiLI,OII, in expressing his tils.•
sent from the conclusions drawn by the Noble and
Learned Lora who. had last spoken, entered his
protest against being bound by any opinion he
should delivef on that night,-fur any other OAR
the meritpurpose of the night ; because, if any
persons were confined unjustly, they could hays
their actions against the Magistrates, and he, 05
well as other Noble Lords, might hiaLT to pro,
mounee kidgenent On n trial at their bar in a writ
of enior, He professed himself as by no meau4
wanting respect to -the Noble Earl ; bat
nothing could have induced him -to have con,.
sented to the production of the opinion of the
Law OfEcers of the Crown; if he bad not
conceived that the Opinion had been; in some
degree, embodied in the circular, letter. He
feared, however, don the production of that
nion might form an evil precedent. He had

jections of a more set iou3 ;mutts to the produciion,
of the case, for such cases not ;Infrequently con...
mined many things it would he imptoper to die"
close. Wnh resvect to the right of the Secretary
of State to interfere with the Justices, he state&
that it had not untrequently been the CUVom for.
Secretaries of State to desire the, Chancellor to;

inform the Judges to inform the Magistrates to'
what offences they were particularly to direct
their intention. He never felt any hesitation,
in stating the principles that had influenced his,
conluct as Attorney-General; he never h any no.
lion that every libel on Ministers ought to be looked
on aid' acrimony or vigilance ; but if be sow a,
system of endeavouring to undermine the Con•
stitutioa and the Government, he had ever op.
posud it with all his. strength. Such was the cost:,
in 1793 and 1794, when there existed a manifest
design, tint merely to overthrow the Ecclesiastical,
or Civil Establishment, but every Establishment
that could secure the happiness and prosperity or
the country.. lie could see no reason why his
Noble Friend should be censuned for having sent
the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown upotx
a law point,---lt was nothing more than saying to
the Magistrines—" Whatever may. he Inv own,
opinion, 1 am yet desirous of having it confirmed
by that of some eminent lawyers.;" and doubtless
such it circumstance 'must give it additional
weiglit. The Learned' Lord (Erskine) had
stated, that while Counsel 1t the SOciety for
the Suppression of Vice, Ire...had' not !mown
of the esistenee', of such an, otithh'ilty in the,
Magisrrates yet if such men as ilVir. Northey,
Lord Hale, Sir Philip Yorke, (afterwards Lord.
Hordwicke), Sir John Willes (as great,.ii 'com-
mon law lawyer as ever 'keit), Arthur Hill,
Sir Dudley Rider, and Lorti Itisnsfield, hail
in their respective sititations recognised such
a power us legal, would the flott;e „vvntore
pronounce a contrary opinion? opposition
to these authorities a partial opinion pi Hale,
and one of IlaWkins had been tulVanectl, but he
insisted on it, Oast two great lawyers were
iii favour of the opinion, and no one, that ls no
lawyer, would tell him, that if one passage de-
clared certain thingc legal, therefore other things
nut contained in it 'were to he considered
legal. No one held Blackstone higlter than.
he did, as a book that did the author very
greAt, credit, but he did not consider it So
much a book of authority as one that showed
the author to be a very laborious and able
man. Now let the House look to the practice of

CO
DE this q
.heel
!craft). IS
61'thoie
) ,1111grou
-114 rable.„F
etteni
hiltvieiosi
mach i
tul
that hi
'l4 Derfu
.
till:, ied
forr,
Zirniltovem,
hten vt,
;tt,t t44r, i q
tlke‘ttitliell)
tht
Irtthe *
:i!'ant be
Ptitet,
4thtitin. •
if II 10
itctity
wia
e', ofts!
'144 "et f6r
Iti
io,„ rtGOsed
t
4h,„ ittin
14dc,(Ite hoc
to:ohterii
4441'11/4 if
I 41 that
F
'l"etin
•
iota
brct 110 w
lx lotion
eta tt
0Q414, ' oil V tit'
ktii:ttopos,
$4.1t0
yrt I;nier,
klerkti
'that
II
:41141,
the ti
L"k rein.

those loolidt: fellows, tyliose nausea he hail quoted.
iN(.ltit• and Ge Inlet! Lord theis titinted many
.e,ises, commencing with Trinity Term, Geo. I
in which iiersoni arrested' bY virttie of warrants
issued I+~ Justi(•ei of the Peace for 'Nlithilesex,
some w( re committed for want of hail, ititil
others intr tsted to the custody of their hail.--
llet`itn ud.crted to the Opinion of Lord Camtle'3.
blew is (Itsittiction between the power of
•
i‘iittgi'lEtitec and of Secretaries of State, anti of
vthich every argument that went to support the
milli,' it y of Secretaries tel State might, a fortiori.
be nr,teit in favour of Nlagi.ttlates. The question
before the Ilonse was not tvliat it ought to be, but

'what it redly was ; it they desired so-vxpiess art
opinion on t he one, let them have a distinct motion
`iii that eff-er, but stir the other point he emslll
'readily.lotticip,sre their determination. The Noble
Earl (616?) had said that there seemed au evident
'desire to eacro,sch (woo the liberty of the sohject.
be would say, that in the decline of life,
after having mixed its many great and interesting
affairs, in any retirement to whiel: it might please
Ili s•en to permit him to pass the last period of
his 'eitiatenee, if lie mold think 'of any'attempt to
entrent on the 'liberty of the subject , it would
limit the 111P,ISart• of his enjoyments ; but in every
its which be bad concurred, as necessary for
preserving the aft.ty of the Constitution, he had
hi et, itifioes,ced s,!ely by a regal d for the preser-
vation Of. tiwse civil and 1101;661 rights which
atone: secured the happiness of this country. They'
bad dispensed to us a degree of happiness unknown,
in whet nations. We had drawn on its, the envy
of others, who sought to de,poil us of those
hlessings ; hut, thank God ! their endeavours had
not !seers attetohd with success. .
LordlioLLANO observed, that the 'motion was
fur timber inks ination' regarding the circular
letter of the Sec:et;:ry of State. Those who'
thotight that 111 e Sticre:tasy of Staft had acted in
a meaner perfectly legal, might consistently vote
agqiust the motion ; hut tbOse wlx, thought with
him that the Act stirs neither legal or expedient,
must feet the tiecessi yof fresh information. No
Ulm ever had, bolo the Bar or the Bench, given
snore able statement of the law: on this oneslion
than his 'i'lsle Friend hatl done that vetting ; and
it coold'uot be contradicted by any of the audio-
s itiets that bad been quoted as the practice of At-
taroks and Solicitors General. Ile asked if ever
there was any bad or unconstitutional practice that
load not been sepported-by Attornies and Solicitors
General ? But the nethornies he should lisok op to
were, the usage of the common law, and the de-
cisions of Judges; and on this ground he con-
tended, that the opiniOn of Lord Camden was de-
cisive its this case. That excellent Judge laid it
down deafly that the autlittrity of Secretaiies of
State and of Magistrees were not convertible
terms. The Justices of the Peace were the crew-
turet of statute law only, aril be wished to know
what statute it was that gave them the power now
contended for 1 The power was not only illegal,
hot the, direction of the Secretary of State to put
it in force was most dangerous and unconstitutional.
it was asserted by Hawkins, that a single Jus-
tice Could not hold a man to bail for an offence
cogniAable by the Sessions'. lie wished to know
what objection could there be made to the good
old practice of preferring indictments before
Grand Juries. By the power now contended for,
the most illtlOCCltt Mtn its tire kingdomlotight
thrown into prison and kept there for several
months, whenever a Justice of the Peace took it
into his bead that he published a libel. If a single
Magistrate chose to interpret any publication to
be a libel, he might have tire publisher immedi-
tcly,throw is into prison. Here a general •order
was sent to every Magistrate to take every body
up. This was a conduct so unconatittitional,
and so destructive to, the harmony and safety
of the country, that it was the duty 4f
Parliament to take- it up. When the
iiistrates dOubted the • legality of the letter,
what they said was, "We are not lswyers
enough to have an opinion, but if we act wrong
the Government will indeMnify us." If he had
written that. letter,. and a worthy Magistrate, lip-
hie to all the penalties Consequent on his Conduct,
shotild come to him forindemnity, he should feel
his situation to be most lamentable. When that
soble Viscoant was at the" head of the Admini-
stration, some years ago, he (Lord 11.) had' op-'
proved Of many parts of his conduct', particularly
that of keeping the people in good hum Our. But
lie had now, within the last three months, done
more to abridge the libertieS of tine people and
desiloy the Constitution, than all the good he hid
ever before done ; he had now associated himself
with an Administration that seemed resolved to do
away all tire rights which Englishmen hitherto
thought they possessed..
Lord Stni.siouTH said, that be 3110111d'he inex-
cusable if he attempted to add to the mass of dead
and living authorities in support of the legality of
the measure which had been brought into disctis
slots. To the other point in debate, he felt it
necessary to refer; he stood' charged with stripping
the circuits:ion, of blasphemy and sedition, and to
that charge 'be pleaded guilty: In that Report of
their Lordships' Committee, the truth of which
hall not been invalidated, atones it had been vehe-
mrntly attacked, the circulation of Seditious and
blasphemous publications was referred to as pe-
culiarly shuttling. When he concurred its that
'eport, he. knew the truth of the statement,
bat since that time he had more lamentable evi-
dences of its correctness. The publications
referred to, were circulated at .a small ex-
pence into every cottage its the manufaeturing dis-
14Iany youths, whose examinations he had
attended, had stated, that previously to the month
of November last, their characters had been utt,
exceptionable ; that since
,the influence of these
publications bad been felt, and not before, had
t heir condnet become. culpable. Never at any
former period was blasphemy to such a degree
enlisted in the cause of treason and sedition.—
There were now more active and intelligent minds
ins the country.----a greater number of persons
who could read—and, he was Limey to say,
the ale-houses were much more frequented,
and greater bodies 'of people • were brought
, together. The 'works which dissenthlated the
mischief were not so much prirchased at
shops—it was against the itinerant dealers in se-
dition and blasphemy that the letter was directed.
It was in consequence of nutnerous applications

front Magistrates lti Ail parts of the entmtlr, met 1
he reqsiested- the opinion 'if the Law Officers.
The venders of these publications were aware thlt
they could not he touched before the Onto ter So;-
siooS by in&ctment, and beforeth.tt time they took
care Id remove I Slid timing all the interval bet ween
the Sessions, they went on wit!. increased and ac-
elmolotting mischief. Under ali t heSe cirrnmsta,,CeS
be thought it his y'to a:At the opinion of the Late
Officers, ith:l haVing receive it to proitmlgate it ;
,and he was happy to say it had produced some of
the effect's he had hoped for, and itt'im ease any
ill effects. As for the-opinion Of the 1.44 Officers,
it was perfectly iatelligible and complete without
the case ; he should therefore oppose the Minim).
The Bishop Of CHESTER gave an explanatidu of
what fell fri,m hint nn a former occasion respect-
ing the case of Wt ;gilt of Liverpool. He had not
Oven any opinion as to whether the conduct of
Magistrates in that business was justifiable or not.
earl GRay, in reply, teeth over the cases refer-
red to in his opening speech, and contended, that
they were not invalidated by the reasoning brought
against them, nor by the praetice of the hired
servants of the Crown. Neither of the' Learned
Lords who opposed him had even referred to the
authorities of Holt and Coke. He was switched to
hear, he observed, that the Noble Viscount said,
that the truth of the Report of their Lordships'
Committee had never been invalidated. When he
recollected the petition of Mr. Cleary, which was
never refitted, and the presentment of the Grapd
Jury of Norwich, which negatived the existence
of seditions and immoral clubs in that eity,Which
the Committee bad so confidently assirted. This,
he trusted, would make their Lordships Cautious
how they built measures on such Reports in future.
The Noble Viscount had argued that this measure
was rendered necessary by the increasing informa-
tion and extensive reading of .the people. . Did he
mean to say, that the Christian religio,, in this Pro-
testant country led to blasphemy and sedition? He
was, in with, astonished at such an argument
from•the Noble Viscount, and scarcely could be-
lieve he seriously meant it. He felt: himself called
upon to re-assert, that this Circtilar was an un-
constitutional interference with the Administra-
tion of justice. The same principle however
upon which the Noble Doctor had set about
remedying the evils of which he 'complained,
by instructing justices of peace in their duty,
Culled upon him also to inStritet the judges.
His Lordship, after quoting a parody from
the 'Ant,i4acobin, which had never been ques-
tioned, to skew the absurdity of prosecuting
with severity, at the present time, what mere
called blasphemous parodies, conelndid a very do.
quent reply, by re-asserting the Unconstitutional
nature of the Secretary of State, and calling upott
the House, as they valued the liberty Of the sub-
ject, to join in condemning it.

'The question was t►ien put, and the House ti
vided—

Nnii-C,,ntentz 7S

Contents

Maibrity apinst the :11a1
Adinurned at Twelve eiCkcik till this days.