The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-21 00:00:00

ing that circumstance, they have, for the three years ending in 1819, been gra-
dually gaining ground on British ships.
Can you state the difference of expence of ship-building in this country, and in
the North of Europe ? Ships may be built in the North of Europe; fir ships for
less than half the money they are built for in this country ; oak ships for about
two-thirds.
Do you speak from your own knowledge, or from information ? From informa-
tion I am constantly in the habit of receiving from persons coming from those
countries ; and front accounts I have actually seen of the cost, the fir ships answer
the purpose for the timber trade, though of course they are very inferior to the
British ships.
What is the comparative cost of fitting a ship for sea in the ports of the Baltic
and in the ports of Great Britain ? Every material article is considerably cheaper
there, for this reason—that it is not 'subject to the duties to which it is liable in
this country ; I hardly know one exception.
Do not the duties now, in consequence of the depression of the price of all raw
materials employed in the manufacture of articles necessary for fitting ships to
sea, bear much more heavily upon the cost of those articles than they did when
the price was comparatively higher ? I think in a twofold degree, as nearly as I
can estimate it.
What is the duty on hemp now ? Ten pounds a ton, and a fraction more.
What is the price of hemp ? Forty pounds per ton.
What was the duty on'hemp in 1813 ? I think the same.
'What was the price of hemp in 1813 ? I will obtain the price, for the in-
formation of the committee ; but I think it was at least double the present price,
and was so for a great part of the war.
So that the duty upon that article, which was about one-eighth or one-ninth in
1813, is now one-fourth ? Yes.
Are you to be understood, that notwithstanding the duty appears to bear harder
in proportion to the price of the hemp, it is, in fact, to the ship-owner in this
country not much more than one-half of the price it was in the year 1813 ? I
mean to say, that in the year 1813 the price of the hemp was, I think, 801. and
now it is 40L
What proportion do the freights of 1813 and 1820 and 1821 bear to each
other ? At the time hemp was double freights were double.
Does the nature of your business give you opportunities of observing the actual
situation of British shipping, and of persons dependant upon it ? Very much

What do you conceive their situation to be at present, in relation to capital and
profit? The situation of the British ship-owner I apprehend to be at present just
this, in relation to capital ; that, since the peace, he has sustained R reduction in
the value of his property of full 50 per cent. I mean, that a ship of precisely the
same quality in all respects, that would formerly have sold readily for 4,0001. will
now with difficulty fetch 2,0001. ; and that part of his capital which remains to
him is producing to him no income. When I say no income, I mean that there
is not enough left to him at the end of the year to make up for the gradual dete-
rioration in the value of his property.
Have the effects of this state of things shown themselves in any visible conse-
nuences among the ship-owners ? They have so, very plainly. Those ship-owners
who had property independent of their shipping have been obliged to have re-
course to that property for their maintenance. A second class of ship-owners have
been obliged to sell off their ships to pay their debts ; and a third, and a very nu-
merous class, are at. this time gradually accumulating debt with their tradesmen.
I speak now particularly of those engaged in the timber trade. I am told that
the quantity of debt due in that way, from ship-owners to the tradesmen, in the
North of England particularly, is greater than it was ever known.
Would not additional distress be created among the ship-owners by any such
regulation of the duties on timber as should throw a greater proportion of it into
the hands of the northern powers of the Baltic, and diminish the proportion of it
now carried on by the British colonies in North America ? Certainly, to a most
serious extent, shipping having now more than ordinary difficulties to contend
with ; any thing that tends to throw it out of employment must very much ag-
gravate those difficulties; and with respect to some large towns upon the coast, I
mean particularly North and South Shields, Sunderland, and Whitby, I think the
consequences would be fatal to a degree that I can- hardly venture to state to the
committee; and I say this from being in constant intercourse with those places.
Has there been any great reduction in ship-building in this kingdom ? There is
no return made up for last year ; but from all the observation I have been able to
make, I have no doubt it will be found that in 1820 there has been a large reduc-
tion in the number of ships built.
Has not that reduction been progressive for some years past ? No, I think not;
I think the ships built for the India trade expressively have prevented the reduction
that would otherwise have taken place. Ido not think there is any considerable
reduction ; independently of which, persons possessed of ship-building yards are
obliged to keep apprentices and other persons about him, so that there is always a
certain quantity of ship-building which must go on, whether ships are wanted or not.
Can those ships, when finished, be sold without a very heavy loss? Certainly not.
Are you able to state the comparative rate of seamen's wages between .British
ships and the ships belonging to the northern powers of Europe ? The rate of
wages paid in British ships in the Baltic trade is 50s. per man per month ; the
rate of wages paid to foreign seamen in the same trade varies from 18s. up to 275.
per man per month. The victualling, in foreign ships, is about 6d. per man per
day; in British ships, from Is. 3d. to Is. 6d. per man per day.
Can you state, from your own knowledge, how the Norway trade was carried
on previous to the increase of the duty in 1809 ? Previous to 1809 I was engaged
in a. house at an outport, which imported pretty-considerably from Norway ; we
had, in the course of four or five years, from 40 to 50 cargoes from Norway, only
one of which came in a British ship, which we sent out by way of experiment;
but not finding it answer, it was never repeated.
Supposing the consumption of American timber in this country should be re-
duced one half, what effect would that have upon British shipping ? To throw
out of employ just one-half of the number of ships engaged in that trade.
Supposing it should be reduced one-fourth ? It would then throw out of em-
ploy one-fourth of the British shipping at present engaged in it.
Would any measure, which had for its object a gradual reduction in the em-
ployment of British shipping in this trade, be less prejudicial to the interests of
the British ship-owner than a measure which would immediately considerably re-
duce the consumption of American timber? It would—only the difference be-
tween dying at once and a lingering death.
It appears by a paper before the committee (the deposition of a sworn broker at
Memel) that in the year 1819 the Prussian trade from Memel employed 268
British ships, and that there were but 63 ships under the Prussian flag which went
to Great Britain ; how do you account for-that circumstance, if the foreigner can
navigate on so much better terms than the British ? I doubt the correctness of
that report, because it differs from the official report presented to the House of
Lords.

You state, that if a reduction was to take place in the importation of timber from
the American colonies to the extent of one-half, to that extent British shipping
would be thrown out of employ; do you not consider that in such case a con-
siderable increased exportation would take place from the Baltic to make good
the defiCiency from America ? I consider that very nearly the same quantity
would come altogether into the market, either from the one place or the other:
but as I believe that a great part of that would come from Norway, I find, by
the official returns, that the Norwegian has five-sixths of the carrying trade. I
find that Prussia has one-half of it; and I will here state the actual tonnage em-
ployed in 1819, from the official documents presented to the house of Lords. In
1819 there arrived from Prussia, foreign tonnage 78,266, British tonnage 80,258 ;
the quantity from Sweden of foreign tonnage, in the same year, was 20,165, of
British tonnage 21,988 ; from Norway, foreign tonnage 82,689, British 17,087 ;
on which ground it appears to me that very nearly the whole of that trade would
go into the hands of foreigners.
Then you are of opinion that the quantity of timber deficient in the American
importation would be supplied from the Baltic, but that that supply from the Baltic
would come chiefly in foreign tonnage ? I think that very nearly the whole quan-
tity would come, not quite as much, for we have American pine so cheap, that that
produces a consumption, in my opinion, which would not take place if it were dearer.
In point of fact, is there not above a moiety imported from the North of Europe
to England, imported in British shipping, deals being included in timber ? No,
I conceive not.

Is 'not nine-tenths of the timber aid deals imported from Russia imported in
British shipping? Certainly.
Is not three-fourths of the timber imported from Memel imported in British
shipping ? No, only one half.
You do not refer to Memel in particular ? No, to the whole of Prussia.
In regard to Sweden, what proportion ? One half.
From Norway ? Five-sixths foreign.
May not such a countervailing duty be laid on timber so imported in foreign
bottoms as to lead to a preference of British chipping ? Certainly.
If such a measure was adopted, would not British shipping be in a great mea-
sure compensated for the falling off of the American trade ? Certainly not ; for
one-fourth of the quantity of shipping would do the work.
Do you mean to say that a ship will make four Baltic voyages in the time she
will make one American ? I mean to say she will make six from Norway, three
or four from Prussia, and two from Russia in a season.
In point of fact, what number of voyages do the ships now usually employed
between the ports of Russia and London make in one season ? Two voyages, and
often one from a lower port in the Baltic besides.
. From the lower ports of the Baltic ? Three or four.
From Nbrway ? Six.

How many from the lower ports of the North American colonies ? To the west
side of the land it is very common to make two voyages ; from the lower ports of
America, from Quebec, not so usual ; and to the east coast generally seldom more
than one from either the lower ports cr Quebec.
Are you not aware that the ships employed from the port of Liverpool in the
trade to Canada are in the habit of making two voyages ? It is certainly not very
common to make two Quebec voyages ; they have tried at two for the last year or
two.

Have you known any instances of three voyages having been made from the
lower ports of America to Liverpool in one season ? I have never heard of its
being done but once ; once I have.

Then, in point of fact, the average of Baltic voyages is three in the season : the
average of American two ? 1 would by no means say that the average of Ameri-
can voyages is two; that is the extreme number: I think the average would be
something like one and a half.
In paint of fact, ships sailing in the regular season, is it not customary for them
to make two voyages from the British colonies to the west coast of England ? I
said so before.

Is is r..ot also, in point of fact, the practice to make two voyages to the east
coast G:Ttainly not.

Aye you acquaimed with the rates of freight that ivere'eurrent last year from the
,ts of the. British colonies to the port of London ? Yes.
nem Quebec to London in 1820, 475. Gd. to 50s. per load; froth
tots, 40s. to 425.

the lowa

Was tlic rate uf freight iron! Quebec, generally speaking, nearer 50s. than 475.?