The Sun.
London, England, 1819-07-02 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM:

Sir F. BURDETT, as he did not know to whom
the Noble Lord who hail just presented
.a peti-
tion on the subject of Reform, applied the terms
he had used, could not judge of what he might
mean to eall " wild'and visionary." lie thought
that he (Sir F. Burdett) bad never supported
schemes of such a character, and lie had done no-
thine to separate the friends of 'Reform. He had
not bt'ottglit the subject forward sooner, because
he wished The people to be satisfied of the inutility
of the:exertions of that body of Gentlemen called
the' Whigs, and was desirous of convincing them
that Lothing could afford the Country essential
relief but a Parliamentary Reform. Had he not
done this—had he nor waited so long, ii might
have been said that he'had interfered' with the
Gentlemen of the Opposition in' the p'etfurrna rice
of their duties-, and caused the failure of their en-
deavours to check the career of Ministers, and he
might have been even accused of being the cause
Of new taxes to the amount- of f.",',000,00,01. being
imposed. Having acted thus, tailing of success'
now, he should not think that bennghtto be con-
sidered as standing in the way Of, any party, if
early it) next Sessioh be again called the atten-
tion of the House to this all-important question.
He had formerly submitted to the. Housea plan
Which, in his opinion, was-neithervisionary nor
M lid ; it was this, that all persons directly paying
taxesshoald be entitled to vote for the return of
a Member' of Parliament. In favour of this plan,
he quoted at some length the opinions of Mr.
Justice Blackstone: 'At 'present', he contended; the
majority of that HOnse-was improperly returned,
and they sat there, knowing •thentselves to he
the nominees of persons who by law were
prohibited from' all interference. in' the election
of its Members. The rights now claimed by ,
those who were accused of pursuing wild and
visionary schemes were not a tenth part of those
enjoyed by their ancestors, He would contend
the country was much more free and happy under
its ancient laws than it was at present ; .and in
proof of this he referred to the authority of Lord
Chancellor Fortescue, who described the English
to live luxuriously, to be' rich, and in every re-
spect in a most enviable slate, compared with the
people of l'wee. The present condition of the
people of England, compared with that of the
people of Frauce, was such, that it should almost
:Seelli (according to persons who had recently been
ita that country) that the situations of the nations
`were reversed. He took a review of the present
distresSes; and (hewed each of the several classes
to be calling on Parliament to afford them relief,
awl impose additiOnal burdens on theirneighbours.
The fact was, the country was greatly over-taxed.
The evil could only be remedied by' a Reform in
Parliament; for he would tell them that no econo-
my and retrenchment' would relieve the people
-effectually without general .RefOrm in that.
House. The heavy taxes levied were made addi-
tionally oppressive by the expence of collection.
Formerly no expence was created by the collection
of the revenue,. and,
,tinder:. another system, he
thought the people would be glad to raise the
taxes they had to2pay, anal transmit them with-
,out expellee to the Tr-easury: The evils at pre-
sent endured were caused by' a corrupt House.
of Commons. He
,had used a common phrase,
" a corrupt House of Commons," but it was
incorrect: The Gentlemen who belonged to
that assembly calling itself the House of Com-
mons--(Cries of Order !)
The Sreaitek thought the ,Hon. Baronet, on
reflection, would do him the justice to perceive,
that he was bound to interrupt him. If such
language could-be regularly used. in that House,.
be (the Speaker) should have to apologize.
Sir F. BURDETT resumed.—He bowed to the
Chair. What he meant was this, that -the 'Gen.."
tlertien of the House of Commons were. hot cor-
rupt. They most faithfully and 'thagnanimouslY.
discharged their duty to their. COnstitherits who
sent them there, but their Constituents were hot
the Public. Atter commenting on the Septennial
Act, which had been justly described by Dr.
Johnson, as a " greater outrage againti the libel.:
ties of the people than that which had expelled
the Stuart Family from the Thione• of these'
Realms," he maintained that such a RefOrm as he
desired 'would aoginent the glory, end extend the
prerogatives, of the Crovin'. He then contrasted
the'present system' with that acted arPon in 'the
reign of Queen Elizabeth. That period of our
history. he was fumes(ireferring to, for then there
was no'standing army in'thi's' country; surd Eliza-'
Beth could :with propriety' call, as alte `often
did, her people, " bee lguardi.-" 'Oh one oceaa
tiorein, particular,, when asked by the Spanish
-Amba&sador 'where' were !her troops to escort
her to some grand entertainment, she replied

with much surprise at the qnestion, " 14y.f1e01316
arc my guards." A Reform, instead of itunrin,:
would benefit the public creditor, for then 1';
would have security which the imposition of oc„
taxes could not afford, as be had no hesitation 'l'
saying, that h.,e should be much surmised if t"
three Millions of new-- taxes produced its the et",
suing year (though th• woad occasion gre'
distress) would add three millions to the reveille;
In fine, he was convinced that every man in
country had an interest in putting an end to
present state of the representation Of the Pei'l”e:
with the exception of tie proprietors of rotten
boroughs. Mr. Pitt had declared many year'Sillit;
that Parliamentary Reform- was necessary,
that under the present system no honest 041--
could be the Minister of the Country. He iint.°l:••
tunately verified his own proposition. Under '
administration, delusion after delusion arose, sill
aid, d by circumstances, the whole nation aeeniC:,•
to have been intoxicated by the magic of his .g 167,
quence. The truth, however, came out at last
the- country awoke to the situation in which:h-
had been plunged, and lamented the career ',Ow.'
had been pursued so long. The gentlemen ne:a
him (the Whigs) thought if the men who for'"
the Administration were changed, all would to;
on well ; but Le would insist that a change of 114/
would be useless, without a change of mess"'.l-
also. The present system ought not to continii"
but for himself, however jealous
.of a standing 91
my, he thought the country had less to dre",
from those who were dressed in red than
those who were dressed in black. He 10" •
really (so loyal a subject was he) rather billr
taxes taken from him by the Sovereign biuss•';
than by a body of men, who usurped a Pn`rei4e
which they had no right to exercise. 'l4 •
Noble Lord, and those who . bad spoken on
flourishing state of the country, reclining on be
of roses themselves, knew little of its distress,e.j,
;
which, however, were no secret to any body 05
He would now propose no particular plan of ltese
form ; but what he wished was, th it the
should give some general deciatatioo of
cessity of having recourse to some scheme of ;#g
form. The expediency of doing this was dale
which be wished to press on their- attention i.e"
was the interest of all that something of this 5n
:0
should be done, for 'he firmly believed that ; `,2;
present system could not long be persevered ieS
and if a course like that which he recommel,,be:
were not adopted; those- be now addressed
in the end be involved in the ruin to
every_ body else was .exposed. He then 4(4"
plained of the abuses which had been nt°e-0
to exist in Charities, Prisons, Mad-houses, Ca"iffe,.
of Justice, but, -above all, in of
The Court of Chancery caused more Immo! ea
fering and misery than he believed had ever 17.411„.
know in a civilized country before, and that `shut-'out any blame to the individuals connected wi
it was the system that was bad ;
proof of this being any thing but what it ongl3`ina,
be, he Would ask the House what, in one dto
stance,. the office copy of accounts necesor7mi:
carry on proceedings bad cost.? Perhaps
would say 1,0001. —More. 5,0001.
10;0001.—More. 15,0001. More, 20,01:0.§.,
More. To keep the House no longer re 4,
pence, 29,0001. for the office copy of accounts of;
cessery to carry on the proceedings in •,,a,
Court of Chancery. The great cause of the dot'
mense amount of law expences was the stni-i'
of the stamp duties. These had come to 61(0',
height that they were to the great bodyf.
people an absolute prohibition against resort- arty;
"v "
Court of Justice. A man who was only thi,
101. was obliged to pay all those 'dodo ta;
(Or
same way as the richest man in the Onto of,
These were grievances which called loudiY et°.
.redress e and, upon a view of all the circumsonii,E(.
which he:bad now mentioned, considering, 5t fee
,same time, that it was to a true and pure
sentation in Parliament-that the people roust
for the correction of such evils, be thougl4tbod
House most agree to the proposal with wilicaea4
concluded-namely, " That early in the alit°,
Session of Parliament the House will take ot
consideration the State of the Represeotati°'
the People." 4
(10
Mr. GEORGE LAUB congratulated the Fri°, 0
-Reform that the motion of the lion. Barnne7o
framed. in such a way as• to allow them toPlisteil
supporting it. At the same time he congrat°o( It*
himself on the circumstance that it would
necessary for him to trespass upon the 6114°00
• House for more than a few minutes, as the dio
on which the Hon. Baronet had touched'-1004
course-01.b1., speech, and -on which he bou
-happily displayed his eloquence, had nothingectii
with the main question. It was, however, n
tyo
sary for bins to say, that though he supported
motion of the lion. Baronet, he must not
be
derstood torank himself in that class of Ref6l.:o,
who claitned'the Hon. Baronet as theirebil;ol
, There was-- very little in common between bi. 0041
and the radical reformers. These persontliti
•of the march of re form, but it rather seeme this,
him that since the time that they bad caked',
in that march, with the Hon. Baronet
at b
head, very little progress had been made---theLoo,
rather been doing that-which in military doer:l'o4
was called, marking time—restless, but stilt° etcf
—raising much dust, hut not advancing olive
towards their object. 'Chose Reformers, frog' fel
Ile was anxious to distinguish himself, wee.
10
heterogeneous body, and supported many
tiv •
a
ent plans and opinions. Among the 00'4
• could_ state from his own experience, th oar,
existed that regular class ofievellers, resSe!
existence the Honourable' Baronet had .
• some doubts. There- was. this, bowere,"e get
w.O remarkable in the conduct of the tiro
formers—that none of those. lain and prd;beett
•:,nseasures of reform in which the House l'avtlir
'engaged had met with their support. Dilillified!
present Session, the House.. had adopted / two
proceedings for reforMing • and correcting 9 011
which had crept into the representatilie sny IQ.
• But the Hon. Baronet, so far from concur'ibeilli
those Measures, had expressly dissented fro tno- the
This alone was sufficient to,throw discredit
views Of persons who were constant,yFall on,
• reform. He was therefore anxious to dra7,,, 00'
between his own • notions en this subjf"tti res
those-of the Hon. Baronet. And. frst,
hg•
speet to the mode-of voting, he athrlittetW
Understood) that ibcte might be considertui

it)(1-1
ions

(Hi

pi'
bs

the
0-
eta

Lb°
165
do'
(10.

1.4

fit detive<l
I • from the mode of .vqting by,bal=
the ,As to the frequency of the exercise of
tit elective franchise, lfe''inust admit that
ate trete 'some powerful reasons lit 'favour
eel"' Speaking from his own, experience, he
sultsaY that he regarded the hustings, with
st, it'i!e_ jollity nd abuse which pr.evailed at
jfi-eleetions ase that hi which he bad been him-
' lei enneerned as an excellent ordeal for the can-
-1,,(,,„
test "•—•.(Hear hear, and laughterl)—At the
ie.e" time he would be contented with a triennial
hetenee of such scenes, and would not wish to
se4"uallv mud-bespattered ; and whets he saw
e,,,131.'er Hon. Gentleman, not now a Member of
House, but who might at sonic time hereafter
e, ""e a seat in it, who had not been whOlly free
•Nutoch abuses, he would be happy with hint to
411iSe the
people who had bestowed upon him
a memento of their denial.—(Hear, hear!)--
.
"e two points be considered as the most on-
tr ti
ain of those which had been so often diSess-
,all the subject of Parliamentary Reform. But
'tulle be admitted that they required some reform,
mutt gnarl himself against being supposed
ebenuaider reform as a grand panacea for all the
se4aes in the coundy, like the Honourable Ba-
*ntl, who thought that a Parliamentary Reform
eild procure all the benefits, and remove all
tle,, "Us. in the country ; that it would:bring
st" e,uuntry into that desirable state which wonld
lee, :,4 the praise bestowed by Fodesche in his
ti be
by enabling the people " to wear woollen
rho"
and drink no water." At the same dine he
11;Ight that a moderate, rational, and practical
th-•41:111 sv'ould do much good. It might check
ttukheceatroep7 of
sprnirisitclotifecf-onitte`nytnatinitdi
ssaptriesatadet Itohlll.owurtihi
',real'. "-dell to which they hail so long been
a ;tilers He found he bad imposed on himself
bet -'Ol task io endeavouring, to draw a line
of lie !bore wild and visionary Reformers. But
teeie'Ped be had done it intelligibly, and that
stl-f"nuse would see that there was between him-
vo,,,nd those who now stood forward as the most
dis ent advocates of Reform a broader line of
Qf etion than subsisted between any other class
vritr'i,t'"tiiejans. There was only, one other remark
'43 which be would trouble the House.. What-
e tilight be the reception which this motion
iti with—whether it should agree to any plan for•
it.....k.°111 which might be proposed, or should t eject
tediltdllie must always consider it as the represen-
the.peeple—as one of the great branches
tegislat ure—and iu discussing topics of
tort kind lie might use any strong language ifs de-
bt. ing what he conceived to he abuses, at least
(141" d not do so from any feeling of disrespect.
ear, hear
%re le
G
N
REVELL said be did not often wish to
sted4','e the House with any 'of his sentiments,
g.brit he did not now mean to follow the Hon.
ite,Tliet through his whole speech ; hut as the
~Jet•ettis one which, especially of -late years,
etibeeotne of mulch imperance,•and as he had
ete" voted upon it. and bitherio',hed
.always
e,,11 a silent voce upon it, be hoped:he ;Would
eiVeused for declaring his opinion upon it. The
ate,ple,et had already been repeatedly so anip!y and
tat'',.,'n'eussed in the House and in various publi-
-164-tilts! that he did not expect to be able to say
new upon it, or to ptit the arguments
the better light than they had hitherto been ; but
tro):1°11. Gentleman observed that he was one of
k-e who saw in the practical effects of our pre-
itslratern of representation much radical good.
Ilbritinn" also say that he had no faith in the wisa
vuea-t,f teeny of those who called themselves ad-
set es of Parliamentary Reform. In this cen-
lh eh,l did not by any means wish to include all
Itiet s
~bucates of reform. Without going out of
did aY to impute improper motives (though be
tietn his consciente believe that improper mo-
ttotsitnigla be dilly imputed to them), hs could
vaa ",eIP saying, that if all that they wished
teei,"lle, it would only give them an oppore
%lel of tryirio their bands on experiments
'tere,,er Ought never to be made, and which
the put to hazard all that was valuable in
C,nuslitution.—(l-lear, hear !)•—lt was not
Wlt-Plniun hastily adopted which he expressed
koen had said that our present representation was
tied " save a greater practical degree of liberty
haes:ecultity both as to person and property than
Ittet;ver been attained in any country in the same
14-41°F society. lint having said this, lie must
lice *awed to express some doubt whether in prac-
-444Y great cbatlge-in our system would pro-
aYst g(4")d• At the same time he must admit our
ea.i4ern had some blemishes. Time, which bad
tt "it up, lied also brought with it some abuses.
it the, .
Only „sort of proposition for
.Reform' to
"eleeti he could listen, was one which should
4(4.1 Rhine OM the defect blemish to be.cor-
ktes: Land plainly show the remedy intended. To
fer,th7e" Proposition he would be among the most
ball 71,1" to propose a serious consideration. He
• thr6 °44; thought. that the influence of the Crown
ifee:l4ii•ntit,, the country, and especially in this
-w,es too great, and that it would he an es-
'"
a: jge'if it'were diminished., The House
• •:2ct the resolutions passed in 1780 on the
tots, • bf fir, Donning, afterwards Lord Ashbur-
trowvniell4et forth that the influence of the
to.b...4llodinareased, was increasing, and ought
lett.'.ol,ritinished. He begged the House to recol-
hat tied taken lace since the period when
Vibe resolutions were agreed to. The National
lioet.ruad'increased from 120 millions. to 801) mil-
teseo, ,17ith this increase, there had been a cot-
' Chfliernnug increase of taxation and of all the ma-
eorsesY ll'eeessnry to enforce it. All this gave a
P"ding increase .to the patronage and in-
tiairv'e of the Crown. Therefore, if, its 1780, the
eeljusie hadtt lt
-dnuebt it necessary to pass the re-
width lie had mentioned, -how much
chili was the occasion for diminishing thein-
ftitili_ of the Crown note. But the Radical Re-
s tea, es went notch -farther than this and there
tepi.l.llll remarkable in all their plans, that no
4107-0 f them were agreed upon a plan of general
their plaits tots were.
I'veroj: (
• 111!ng these opinions,, he could not but
e(4110
..otnasent from the present tno:ion, ,and he
te,;_nt do it a better way titan by moving
tuv.:: lie other orders of the day be now read,"
.ill Feat 1)
the. '.,"tiaNEY entered into an historical review
%;unstitution of Parliament, consistiug ode

ginally int.Knights,of the Shire-and Burgesses,
the Representatives of tenants in burgage tenure,
He inferred, that if Representatives were returned
to-Parliarnent.by divisions of country,- according
to a geographical division, as had been proposed
by certain Reformens, the_ consequence would he,
that -all the representation would be Vested so far
in the landed interest excinsively., He considered
there existed abroad very unjust prejudices on the
sobject. All these objectioes would, he thought,
be deadened, should Parliament provide, that in
all cases where places or boroughs should he dis-
franchised (Or corruntion:the House should direct
writs to he issued to one of the large towns, such
as Manchester, Birmingham., or Leeds, so as to
invest =them with the franchise dins forfeited.
Sir IL XVILSON said, his only. objection to the
motion of the Honourable Baronet was the time
at which it was brought forward. At so late
a period of the Session many persons were absent,
not. expecting that so importaet a measure would
be now brought forward. The Honourable fiarn-
net had stated his reason for his delay. He bad
allowed those whom he must call the Economists
to try their strength. lint the:llouourable Baro-
net' was certainly right in saying that they had
been defeated. The campaign was ended without
any success. They had- been beaten on every
point—tine Lords ot the Admiralty—the Wei.
Office—the Colonial Department,--:hey had been
repulsed from them all, without gaining the least
advantage.—They bad not bean able even to wrest
a single snuff-box front the Noble Lord. As to
the necessity of Reform, he observed, that when
out of the 6-S0 members of the House, the noun!
hers returned by the Crown and the Nobility
were deducted, the tot al number that could he
considered as really Representatives of the. peo-
ple was only 171. On the whole, therefore,
he thought the Honourable Baronet had shown
the necessity of some Reform, and that this
was a seasonable time for undertaking it.—
He should not anticipate the objections which
might be made to the proposal of the Honour-
able Baronet when its details came to he con-
sidered. But there were ;two objections which
he would now notice. One of these Was, that
ours -was a mixed Constitotion, of King, Lords,
anti Commons, and not a Commonweelth.—
Bet he contended that this was as much as to say,
that the Constitution, as settled by our ancestors,
.was not that which we nugli -to adopt. Another
objection was, that the present House of Com-
mons was, upon the whole, a good representation
of the people:` But he ntutli say, than those Mem..
bees put into,; the House by Patrons must have
distinct views and interests from those of the ge-
nuine representetives of the people. To this
cause the people aseribed the greatest of ell
the irresponsibility of Ministers. Another sort
of R dormers- were those who resisted every ;pro-
posal for •Reform, unless a distinct- plan was
brought forward. An Hon. 7deinber (Mr..Gren-
fell) was of this eitss. But that Hon. Member
had never supported
,any of the vat ions plans
which had been brought forward even in this
Session. This class of Petitioners were like a
Trustee, who, being bound to keep an edifice in
repair, refused to.do so on the complaints of the
heir, unless a plans was proposed ; trod yet when
a plan was proposed—though by Nash, or
Smnrke, or Wyatt-thoogli of the most ueexcep-
tionable kind, would always oppose it, one being
too Grecian, -another too Gothicone too ancient,
another too modern.. In short, it was impossible
to please such men. They were like the soldier,
who, when he was flogged, complained that the
drummer struck too high—then that he struck too
low--,-and,.'lastly,_ that he struck in 'the middle.—
On the whole, he thought that the House, injus-
tice to a complaining country, could not refuse to
accede to,. this propOsal, which-"at least held out
the hope of Reform.
Mr. WtestoT opposed the motion. He did not
think that the Hon. Baronet had, on this occa-
sion. brought forward the measure in a way that
Made - it • less objectionable than formerly. He
could not hut connect this motion with the, meet!
ings which were held in various parts of the coun-
try, and which he could not describe as other than
seditious. It was when such motions as 'lris were
rejected by the House, that at these meetings the
House was said to be any thing but a representa-
tion of the people—that it ,s as the source of all
our evils. For himself, he could not but cordially
approve of the measures which had been adopted by
the House for the punishment of. those who had
abused the elective Iranchise by bribery and corrup-
tion. But it was not any such Reform that the Hon.
Baronet wished, and, when it was effected, he re-
fused to take any part in the work. The Hon.
Baronet liked lo go further heck, and say, that,.
in the present days, we had degenerated from the
constitutional purity of our ancestors. To show
that in these ancient times, to which the Hon.
Baronet was always appealing, tine liberties of the
subject were wholly disregarded, it was only ne-
cessary to refer to the addreSs of Richard 11. to
the villeins of Essex, at the time of tVat Tyler's
insurrection, in which it was said, " villeni fuistis
—villeni- manebitis, non ut hactenus. set) 'etiam
viiieres." As to the degree of Misery which ex-
ed throughout tit e country,he thought the wisdom
of the House would be able to devise a remedy,
But hetcould not connect any such. remedy with
any project for ;dorm. In tine regulation of the
Poor. Laws, a very great step would .he made to-
wards providing a remedy for this misery. Some-
thing might' also be done by emigration to British
Colonies. 'lt was certainly very strange that no
Member could be found exactly to agree with .the
Hon. Baronet. If any plan was really brought
forward, then the House might be able to decide
upon it. He concluded by quoting a passage from
a speech 'by Mr. Fox, which he thought a decisive
authority against this motion.
Mr. Alderman WooD, said -the argument against
taking away the elective franchise from rotten bo-
roughs, was that it would be taking, away the
rights of certain personi. -But be could not think
there was any force in this reason, because it was
not desired•to take away the rights of those per-
sons,. but only to admit others.to share in them.
And b,e could
.not .think that the value of those
rights was diminished by extending them. For
himself, as,a•Member of the City of London,• he
had 1.2,000 constjtuents,, and 'he was sure they
would not think theiCrights lesi valuable if-12-,000
more of the-people were admitted to share in thew,

Some 00Jeciiorks ha 4 been trade as to the time when
this motion :was. brought forward, and lie could
not hut feel sorry that it -_had not been sooner
brought forward. Ile had lioped that some of
the 1-lon,Mernbers on his siie of the 11ouse would
!rare brought forward a motion for reform at an
earlier period of the Session ; knowing that there
were so many of,his Lio-nourable Friends of greater
ability than himself, he bad not brought forward
any proposition himself, though lie was one of the
‘varmest friends' of reform.

Mr". WILLIAtus said, it must be admitted that
in the present state of things.Nve enjoyed many
advantages and blessings. But the 'question was
not whether we did not enjoy many blessings,but
whether we might not enj,,y a still greater degree
of th,)se blessings. With this \-iew, the Hon.
Member, after various remarks on the necessity of
reform, concluded by expressing his issent. to the

motion.
Mr. Alderman WeiTumee, after some general
remarks, and dwelling on, as he couteived, the
present state of the Constitution, affirmed that tine
time predicted by Hume was nearly arrived, when
by the pressure of taxes we would not he enabled
to pay the interest of the National Debt. The
Government of the Country would then 'be in the
most imminent danger. Whet would save us
from that menaced ruin ?—Nothing but a 'Perna-
mentery Reform. Gentlemen were afraid to begin
this laudable work ; abuses were so numerous
that they knew not where to tottch them without
endangering the whole system of corrupt ion .
Gentlemen talked of great authorities : all the
great authorities recommended roost earnestly
Parliamentary Reform, as the only salvation for
our Government and the Constitution. Look at
all the great authorities, from Locke down to
Fox, ail urging, with the tone of patriotic
ri-
valry, Parliamentary Reform. Mr. Fox, on.every
occasion, was uncommonly solici-ous for that sa-
lutary measure. He was anxiously .prominent on
the subject, that he might he called the Cham-
pion of Reform. Mr. 'Burke, will that ex-
traordinary penetration which he possessed.,
foresaw. the most serious 'mischief without a
Parliemeroary Reform. In the finest passages
of his works, he speaks of Reformation as our
vital principle for salvation. These could not be
said to be small or trifling authorities. Better
any excess le some other. way eleara.theeoetien7
ante of the, persent corrupt system.- In -these
days, it was thought a fine thing, indeed, if the
House of Commons granted a-Committee of In-
quiry into Economy and Abuses. Silt what 'fol-
lowed ? The Report. of that Committee would
state, efeainst truth and justice; ;hat Retrench-
ment would speedily he adopted,but that after due
investieation they had found that there were no
abuses ! The House" of Commons ought toest.ct '
With more consistency and' hontsur: 4-e-7.Vas the
great ()eviler between the privileges of the taco,
pie and-the prerogative. ofelie Crown. If Mem-
bets of Parliament did not pay -more attention
to the wishes of their ConStiteents, to the voice
of the people, the latter would. lose their respect
far the former. Gentlemen ought to take an
active part in support of the liberties of the peo-
ple. The great Work was not to be accomplished
by long speeches !—(Hear, hear T. and loud
lenteliter., in 'allusion to the length of the worthy
Alderman's speech.)--Recovering himself from
the embarrassment of the interruption, the lion.
Member expressed himself very gratefel fie` the
pause produced by the ludicrous interference of
the' House, , It was. u great relief to hint. But
while
.he acknowledged the kind indulgence of the
HOuse in favouring him with' So much of their
time; 'he was apprehensive 'that he might have
encroechett too mach upon their patienceee--(Hear,
hear.)---He beteged, however, to assure them,
that he would ClaiM their attention for a very sew
minutes longer.' Towards the immediate com-
mencement of Reform;the Members should begin
to reform themselves. Such a happy change
would be the most sincere pledge to the people.
All candidates at elections' matte semeterfel pro-
fessions to the people 3 but these professions tht y
generally forgot as soon as renamed to Parlia-
ment. They professed strong attachment to
the Constitution. The best proof would be
to put heart and hand to, the laudable mea-
sure of Parliamentary Reform. It is a chief
part of the Coestitlition to have a free repre-
sentation in Parliament. How could the repre-
sentation be said to be. free, when it seas en-
der the control of the GovernMent or of the
great landed proprietors. Ayelornefrom men of
this description was not very likely to take place.
But better consent to e Reform than pet every
,thing to the hazard. Some, however, would save-
0, it you sutler the people to dictate to their ile-
preSentatiVese-a you 'indulge them in their fa-
vourite measure of Reform, you will overthrow
the Government amid destroy the Constitution !
Such a Constitution lie would despise, as a thing
unworthy of his regard. That was not the Con
stitotion for which our ancestors freight and
bledl The Hoe. Member concluded by .again
most earnestly recommending eetorm within doors
before the people began it without. As he did
not, by a negative to eefortri, wish to put 'every
thiug dear to us to the hazard, be should vote for
the motion of the Hon. Baronet.
GRRNFRLL and Mr. Wfiesiof severally ex-
plained.
:Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) opposed the motion,.
but would not discuss the subject. Helm Worthy
Alderman (Wood) could procure for laito an au-.
(Hence from the 12,000 electors of •the City` of
London, he had no doubt hut he. could she w them
very clearly that they were, very wrong, in their
wishes far ParliamenCary Reform. Hen, Mem-
bers could 'not employ their time better than by
attending Meetings convened for the purpose of
discussing this subject, and there
.point out to
the people their errors reed the delusions that were
attempted to- be practised upon them. By this
means•they•would Soon beat the Reformers Out of
the field, aed be raised in triumph on the people's
shoulderit
Mr-Iltites said, his constituents were friendly,
like all the people of Secitland, to a moderate
Reforms); He would therefore support the *potion,
as it pledged ehellotise to no precise measure.
Mr. Beatip,,(we believe)
.said, that ,althongh a
friend to 'Parliamentary Reform, he was very far
from 'entertaining those' wild' notiOns which had
thrown discredit do ante-subject. He remarked,

that Mr. Pitt. was favnnrable to a Reform-in the
mode of representing the people—that Statesman's
plan was to set aside a sum of money, for the
purpose of accumulating, until it amounted 'to so
large a sum as to induce the proprietors of bo-
roughs to consent to this disfranchisement. The
present question was one which he thought might
safely be enterta;ned ; be therefore should vote
for it..

Mr. PETER MoottE would also vote for the mo-
tion, thinking it requisite for the Preservatitm of
tranquillity • among Itte people. He telt much
obliged to the Hon: Baronet for 'bringing it for-
ward, and hoped that the same motion would be
continued to be submitted every Session; until
Ministers were compelled to take some step upon
the subject.

M. tENNYSON did not concur 'with those who
thought the representation of the people in the
best •possible condition, but apprehended much
dangsr .fiorn general reform, He was, however,
on tbat.account more,anxious to take advantage of
incidfortal opportnnities, and thought the House
would have pursued a mote constitutional and effi-
cient course, if Boroughs w ich proved ro be cur-
rtipt were disfranchised, and the right transferred
to the Counties or • large unrepresented Towns.
Mr. Pitt, in 1733, b•itl suggestid this course,
'but failed in consequence of nis burin!, mixed up
something objectionable with his proposal. With
bis .(Mr. rs.) moderate and limited views on the
subject, he could not accede to the present tun-
tion, which waf.z plainly designed to ph clg, the
House to some measure of general reform—but he
21!OUld sit all times, anxiously support the due
and most effectual application of
.all means of
t*ortn---castialiy occurring, and w!,ich though
partial in immediate opera,ion, might gradually
tend to a complete renovation of the Constitution.

Lord J. RusseLt. was frien•lly, he said, to a
transfer of the elective .franchise from those Bo-
Hroughs in which corruption %vas !•rove‘ to exist.---
He was friendly also- to triennial Parliaments, but
be would not support the r resent motion, because
it would pledge the House • to .enquire next Ses-
sion•into the general state of the Representation,
and thereby tend to throw a slur itpon the whole
Representative system of-Ole-country.. lithe Ho
nottrable Baronet (Sir.F..BOrdett) did not know,
as he stated, what was meant -by visionary' and
npvel schemes, he would refer.hiin tti-lituse per-
sons for an explanation, who advised hitrt,to come
flown lasi Sessi66, and make a motion for Annual •
Parliaments and Universal Suffrage.,

Mr. fitiroutxsoN supported the motion, hbit he.
would not pledge hi:nself to any particular plan
oißeform. conviction was, that the people
were not honestly., fairly, ni7r fully terwtMed. ••
Mr. BY SG would not. 1),C.; deterred from sup-
porting the 'question, abbongh it had been pro-
posed by an Hon. Baronet who had done till
cause much injury by separating himself from_ the
aristocracy, for• wit hoot the assistance of the Gen-
tlemen of the country, .no great question could be
expected to meet with success.
.'Sli.r.l3t/RDET-r replied. If be could have sly-
posed that the mischievous consequences mei:-
tionetrby the Noble Lard would arise from the
motion which he proposed, he would not' Irmg it
forty td:'but, confident. as he felt that lie dim
would-meet with the concurrence, at no distai:t.
period, of the great portion of the inhabitants of
thi'S Cothitiy, he trusted that the division of the
House would stew what its feelings were= oh that.
important subject. It was in vain to attempt to
hide the subject, it was too prominent, all were
aware of the- Means which were made•use of to
obtain seats in the House by‘many Members. The
practicability of. his motion had been spoken of.:
he would therefore observe, that what he desired
was a Reform, so as to have a representation of
the people sufticier,t to restrain- 111 e Minislyst
when an unconstitutional .measure should be prof
posed.
The House divided on the amendment, that the
other Orders.Ot the Day•be'then read—
Ayes 153
Noe's 53
Majority-, . -95.
The third reading of the Welch Game Bill was
postponed till to-morrow.
The third reading of the New Forest Bill was
also postponed till to.morrow. •
The Slave Registry Bill
.was read a third time,
and passed.
The Newlerest Bill was read a third time, and
passed.