The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-14 00:00:00

only with contentment, but approbation, to invectives couched
in the most insulting terms, and directed against his person
alone. The Hon. and Learned Member to whom he referred,
had had the satisfaction of discharging his accumulated venom
of three months' concoction. The same gentleman hod also,
about three months ago, made an attack on himself (Mr. S.
O'Brien), having taken him to task for what ho had stated in
Conciliation-hall, and at a time when he was not there to defend
himself. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) had not come there with a
prepared reply to the attacks of that Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, but he was certain that in that House be had always
maintained the character of a gentleman—(Cheers)—and
never receded from the expression of his opinions of a bad mea-
sure, or shrunk from the declaration of his sentiments ; yet, in
doing so, he had always avoided doing anything that would give
pain to individuals.—( Hear, hear.) That though he had
never uttered anything that could give pain, he could not, on
the present occasion, avoid expressing his unutterable contempt
and intense pity for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
made the attack.
Sir It INGLIS asked whether any Member of that House
was justified in using such an expression as " unutterable con-
tempt" towards another Member ? The elements of that ex-
pression were such as 4pplied to a person, and could not he
admitted.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN would settle the matter by abandoning
the expressions he had used. He had no personal enmity to
any Member of the House, or to the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Bath. But at the same time he would say, that the
words which that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had attributed
to him (Mr. S. O'Brien), as having been spoken at Concilia-
tion-hall, had never been uttered by him there. The lan-
guage he had made use of was, that he would not attend Par-
liament, unless his doing so would be the means of doing good
to his country. He had never said that he would nut attend
this House under any circumstance;. What he said was with
the qualification he had just stated to the House. He had, he
admitted, expressed an opinion that Members would best serve
the interests of Ireland by staying in that country, instead of
attending the House of Commons. The Honourable and
Learned Member had represented Conciliation-hall as
a scene of corruption, and that those whe attended
there did so from selfish and improper motives ; but
he (Mr. S. O'Brien) would tell that Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen that the probity and propriety of all who attended
there, and were concerned in its proceedings, were such as
would contrast with the best-conducted assemblies in this coun-
try. He would speak mere especially of the humble classes,
with respect to whose conduct he prided himself, for its
superiority, as compared with the proceedings of similar bodies
of men in this country. Another Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had, along with himself (Mr. Smith O'Brien) been
attacked, who was much better able to defend himself than he
was; but to that attack he would only answer, that that Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) had given up a most
lucrative practice and the most profitable sources of income,
that he might devote himself to the interests of his country.
To attack the motives of such a man, whose whole life was
devoted to the arduous duty of obtaining justice for the pooplo
of Ireland, could only be the suggestions of a low and grovel-
ling mind.—( Hear, hear.) He repeated what he had already
stated, that if this Bill was permitted to pass in its present
form, it would give the Government the power of appointing,
as professors, parties from out of families whom they (the
Government) considered most adapted to serve their political
purposes. The Bill placed the whole power in the hands of
the Government; and, while it did so, he maintained it was
an attempt to corrupt the intellect of Ireland.—( Hear. )
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department for an
explanation on two points in reference to the proposed vote.
The one was, why the proposition of 18,000/. had been raised
to 21,000/. ? and the other was, whether any alteration was
contemplated in the mode of appointing the professors ?
Sir I. GRAHAM said the amendments contemplated would
he thought meet the objections of the Noble Lord. He could
assure the Noble Lord that there was every disposition on the
part of the Government to make the measures palatable. On
Monday he would fully explain the nature of those amend-
ments. 21,000/. a year was the vote proposed for the three
colleges instead of 18,000/. a year as originally proposed. On
Monday he would likewise explain the views of the Govern-
ment with respect to the appointment of professors.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to an additional grant of 3,000/.
a year unless the application of the money was previously
clearly defined. It was not his wish to offer any opposition to
the measure but the Government should not ask" them to legis-
late in the dark.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, in accordance with what he
conceived to be the opinion of the House, he had proposed the
additional grant of 1,0001. a year to each college, for the
purpose of granting prises and exhibitions.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that it was quite true they
were asked to legislate in the dark, and these colleges might
turn out to be nurseries for rebellion and agitation, for any
thing:they knew to the contrary, or anything that had been
stated to the House by the Government. In fact, it did not
appear for whose benefit the measure was intended. Hitherto,
upon the question of education, the House seemed anxious to
educate the poor, but now the measure seemed; designed
for the higher classes, for he doubted that the middle classes
could send their children to these expensive colleges. He
thought that if the people of Ireland were really anxious for
educating their children, he did not see why they should not
contribute towards such an object, and pay for the support of
those seminaries out of the county rates.
Sir R. PEEL said that if it were the wish of the House to
carry out this measure they should not dispute about the mode
in which the money was obtained. Grand juries were not in
Ireland always the representatives of public opinion, and it
was clear that a difference of opinion among grand juries as to
granting the money would render the measure wholly nugatory.
Mr. WYSE differed entirely from the course taken by the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) and thought the
mode of supporting the colleges suggested by him could not be
carried out. The Right Hon. Baronet was well aware that there
were many institutions in Ireland, but they are compulsory by
the grand jury. And inasmuch as they had compulsory as-
sessments he thought that there ought to be some control over
the parties by whom the assessments were made. He objected
to any assessment by bodies which are not elected by the
people, but as they had such endowments, they could not do
better than to supervise the mode in which those assessments
were applied. He would have wished that it should have been
otherwise, but seeing the difficulty of getting any money from
that House, he hod been obliged to decline carrying his propo-
sition further. He had proposed that there should be thirty.
two county colleges, which should have their funds made good
by the country, and that they should be connected with the
University of London. They would thereby have the elemen-
tary schools, the more advanced seminaries, and then the
county colleges intermediate between them and the University,
and this last might be the crowning of the whole edifice. By
this plan they would have as perfect a means of education in
Ireland as in any other country. Ho was not so unreasonable
or so unjust as to complain that the whole of this plan was not
I carried out. His system would have given a continuous, analo-
gous, and well-founded course of education, but he could not
regret that it was not at all adopted. It might be better to go
step by step. The country might not be able,to bear it • and, at
any rate, there was a great advance; and ho should, therefore,
rejoice in its adoption, and lament if there was;any indisposition
to receive it by the Irish people.
Mr. P. BORTIIWICK said that the Hon. Member, who
had just sat down, had stated that such a system of education
as he had described existed in Germany, but he had not been
able to find it. Nevertheless, he would most willingly vote for
the establishment of these colleges, and thought it a measure
worthy of a great Government, and adapted to the necessities
of a great people.
Sir D. NORREYS wished to know whether it was still pro-
posed by the. Government to prevent any religious test in these
colleges or not.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM stated that the Government still
adhered to their original resolution on that point, and whatever
deviation they might make in the plan would be seen in the
amendments of the Bill.
Mr. COLLETT wished to know whether the 100,000/. was
to be paid in the first instance for the establishmenf of these
colleges, and the 21,0001. a-year for their support; and next,
whether it was intended that the payments should begin this yeir ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that it was intended to appro-
priate 100,0001. to the erection of the colleges, and then to
apply the sum of 7,000/. a-year for the support of each, but that
the payments would not begin until after the colleges were
founded, and it was therefore at present problematical whether
they would begin this year or not. Perhaps a portion of the
money might bo received.
Sir T. D. ACL AND could not clearly understand how
the colleges and halls were properly to be distinguished. Ac-
cording to his apprehension the halls might enjoy the benefit of
religious instruction or not, although the colleges were ex-
cluded from that advantage.
Sir JAM ES GRAHAM said that it was not the intention
of Government to provide any religious instruction, as it would
interfere with their plan. The halls might be endowed for the
purposes of religious instruction by the benefactions of private
individuals.
Mr. SHELL said he wished to put two questions to the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite; but as his object was not dis-
cussion on these points, the answer might, if the Right Hon.
Gentleman thought proper, be postponed till another night.
The first question was—Was it the intent on of the Govern-
ment that the appointment of the professors should be reserved
to the Crown? The second—Was there to be any stipend
awarded to a chapel attached to, or in the neighbourhood of,
the college; and was there to be any ecclesiastic, Protestant
or Roman Catholic, to be appointed for the purpose of giving
religious instruction, and performing Divine worship, within
the precincts of the college? If it were not convenient to give
the answers now, they might be postponed until Monday next,
when there would be a good opportunity of stating the decisions
of the Government. The Right Hon. Baronet would be
aware of the memorial which had been forwarded by the Roman
Catholic bishops upon this question. In that memorial they
were unanimous. It had been signed by Dr. Higgins, Dr.
Murray, Dr. Croly, and Dr. Denver, among the other bishops,
all of whom were members of the Board of Education. This
was not only the expression of the Roman Catholic bishops,
but he might say of the whole of the Roman Catholic body, or,
it. other words, of seven-eights of the whole of the Irish peo-
ple. These were the questions—whether the appointment of
the professors was reserved to the Crown, and whether there
was to be any religious instruction provided.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he bad already replied to
the inquiries of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of
London on these two points, and it had been agreed, as a mat-
ter of publics convenience, that the answers should be deferred
until Monday. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of the
Government proposed to bring on the Irish Bank Bill on Mon-
day, and as the debate !was not likely to occupy the whole of
the evening, he himself proposed to bring up the report on the
academical institutions, after that debate was concluded. He
would go into the subject in detail, and state the whole of the
plan he proposed to adopt. This course would be more conve-
nient, and he should therefore defer his reply untirtliat evening.
Sir R. PEEL said that there would be no indisposition to
give the answer at the present time, but as it seemed more to
consort with private convenience. The House had had an in-
timation of the plan intended by his Right Hon. Friend, and
there would be ample opportunity of detailing it fully on Mon-
day, that would be evidently the most convenient plan that
could be adopted, as the House would then be put fully in pos-
session of the several points in the Government plan, and give
time for the consideration of them.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN was exceedingly anxious to see
how far the wishes of the Irish people had been attended to in
the proposed scheme of the Government, and trusted that the

report would not be delayed longer than Monday.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the time which he had named,
would be the most convenient, and as the Irish Bank Bill was
not likely to occupy the whole of the evening, there would be
sufficient time for discussion on bringing up the report.
Mr. WYSE had intended to put similar questions as those
asked by the Right lion. Gentleman the member for Dun-
garvon, but would defer further mention of them till Monday
next.

Sir H. W. BARRON hoped the Government would re-
consider the question of the appointment of profesiors, other-
wise the measure would very naturally, if not truly, go forth to
the people of Ireland as p, opounded only with a view to its
bein a source of patronage.
Mr. WILLIAMS regretted that the Government had departed
from their original intention respecting the amount and source
of the funds for endowing these colleges. He thought it quite
a novel circumstance for 100,0001. to be appropriated out of the
public taxation of a country for the foundation of academical
institutions, and to be annually required for their maintenance.
Similar stuns were expended on colleges in Scotland, but pro-
cured from different sources, and no premium was held out by
overninent for their permanent endowment. If the Right
ion, baronet would agree that 6,0001. instead of 7,0001. should
be taken out of the
consolida,l..ed fund, and trust
to the voluntary benevolence of individualo in

Ireland to raise the remaining 1,0001., he would not oppose th o
vote. He felt sure that the generosity of the Irish higher
classes would snore than supply the amount required for pre-
miums, and on all grounds, he thought, not so much for the
amount as the principle, the first proposition should be adhered
to.—( Hear. )
Sir JAMES GRAHAM reminded the Hon. Member for
Coventry, that the case of the Scotch colleges was of ancient
date, and the principle originally established continued as if
by consent, while that of the Irish Academical Institutions was
novel, and he could not perceive the objections suggested by
other Hon. Members.
Lord J. RUSSELL advised Members on his side of the
House, who had amendments or questions to propose, to defer
further discussion on the Bill till Monday next, when a more
favourable opportunity would be afforded for investigating the
subject.
Sir T. D. ACLAND having tendered his approval of the
vote,

The resolution was put and carried.
THE MEDICAL BILL.

Mr. BERNAL begged to ask the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, whether the clause of the Medical Bill re-
lating to druggists would interfere with the previous enact-
ments affecting that profession.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that the Medical Bill
would repeal such provisions of the Apothecaries Act as inter-
fered with its subsequent enactments.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN, in answer to a question put
by the flon. Member for Marylebene a few nights since, stated
tint the Admiralty were guided by the regulations respecting
the grant of pensions in the case of wounds.
Sir CHA It LES NAPIER said the regulations specified that
unless the wound was equal to the loss of a limb, no pension
shsuld be granted ; but if the Queen had the right of using her
discretion and commanding its payment, even in cases where the
wound did not amount to the prescribed severity, such an un-
certain method he considered objectionable, and suggested the
adoption of a more definite regulation.
IRISH FISHERIES.

Sir W. BARRON wished to call the attention of the House
to the unsatisfactory state of the Irish fisheries. The Irish
Parliament had passed no less than twenty Acts to protect
those rights, and subsequently the United Legislature had
adopted similar protective measures. But the Board of Works
in Ireland had neglected their duty, and the Acts of the Le-
gislature had been rendered nugatory by their remissness.
The Commissioners who should have inquired into the state of
every river in Ireland had only laid down the boundaries of
15 rivers, eight of which were in the eounty Kerry. Again,
in the veer 1843, the first report was net made till May, in-
stead of the February preceding, as required by law. In 1844
it was not made till July, and about a fortnight since that for
the present year was furnished. This delay was not
merely neglect, it was a positive violation of the
112th section of the Act.—( Hear.) Last winter a
certain number of gentlemen in Dublin, usually supporters of
her Majesty's present Government, wishing to call a meeting
of the board in unison with the injunctions of the Act of
Parliament, consulted Lord Eliot as to the best mode of effect-
ing their object. That functionary had very properly referred
them to the Commissioners themselves, but the Commission-
ers flatly refused to accede, pleading that the qualifying term,
" when practicable," in the Act, meant " when convenient,"
and thus, forsooth, consulting their own convenience, they
would neither convene a meeting nor give information. The
reply would probably be, that the board was overburdened ;
but, if so, why did they not admit the pressing character of
their numerous engagements, and acknowledge their inability
to perform their duties? He wished to call the at-
tention of the House to the report which bad been
made by the various officers in command of the Coast-
guard in Ireland. Under an existing Act of Parliament,
they were required to register all the boats employed in the
Irish fisheries, and in the discharge of their duty they had re-
ported to the board in Dublin, that the fisheries in almcst all
instances under their knowledge were in want of protec-
tion. There was scarcely one of these officers who did not
bear testimony to the steady character and good conduct of the
fishermen, and at the same time they seldom or never forget the
distress they suffered from a want of large fishing-boats or
smacks for carrying on their trade. But it was impossible
that such boats could be employed in the Irish fisheries until
there were piers made or harbours erected in which the fisher-
men could take refuge in time of danger and storm. Until
Government made grants for this purpose, as they had most
judiciously done in the case of Scotland, they could not expect
to see any Improvement in the fisheries of Ireland. Government
had alrendy granted 14,0001. for improving the fisheries of
Scotland, and another grant of 3,0001. for building piers and
improving the harbours of refuge; but to Ireland they had not
granted one single farthing, although it was notorious that
Ireland was a much poorer country than Scotland, and much
more in want than Scotland. This was one of the chief causes
of complaint which he hoped Government would take into their
earliest consideration, and recommend to Parliament the ex-
pediency of making the same grant to Ireland as they had to
Scotland. On the 26th of July, 1843, Lord Glengal, who was
a supporter of the present Government, brought forward a
motion on this subject, and on that occasion the Noble Lord
stated that nothing could be more deplorable than the state of
the Irish fisheries, from the want of proper attention being
paid to them by the parties whose duty it was to see the Act of
regulation carried into effect. Lord Carberry, another sup-
porter of the Government, on the same occasion gave a similar
opinion, and his Grace the Duke of Welliington promised that
the subject should receive attention in the proper quarter; but
up to that moment his Grace's promise had not been fulfilled.
Now these were the opinions of the Noble supporters of the
Government, and he might add, the opinion of almost every
gentleman in Ireland who had turned his attention
to the subject. In certain towns in Ireland the
rights of the public and the rights of pri-
vate property were constantly clashing from the want of
being properly defined by the Board of Works as the Act di-
rected. But it appeared to hint that the present policy of the
Board was to do nothing; for, in their reports, they openly
confessed that they thought the best system for them was to
let things alone. By the Act of Parliament, the Commis-
sioners were to decide the boundaries of fresh water and sea
fisheries, but they had only done so in the case of 15 rivers
out of 150, and eight of those were in one county. The Act
also required them to take steps to prevent the destruction of
breeding salmon, but they had failed to comply with the pro-
visions of the Act in this respect too. It would naturally be
expected, that after making so many complaints, he should
suggest some remedies, and, with the permission of the House,
he would venture to do so. In the first place, he would sug-
gest that the fisheries of Ireland should be placed under the
control of a separate board, but not to consist of a large
number of persons. The Board might consist of
one paid officer, who should have the aid of assistants
for the purposes of inspection, and of three or four
Iri sh gentlemen who, he had no doubt, would be most willing
to act on the board without any pay or remuneration.
would also have four or five deputy inspectors to act, and the
board in the various districts of Ireland under the control and
direction of the central board. In the next place, he would
facilitate the building of large boats, and make grants of money
to build piers or small harbours of refuge for such boats in time
of peril and boisterous weather. He would require inspectors
for different parts of the coast. And he asked no more than it
was in the power of the Government to grant. It was not to be
denied that the fishermen of Ireland were a hardy and brave race,
and in 1780 the Parliament voted 10,000 men for the naval
service of the country and the supplement was completed
within three months.—( Hear, hear.) A similar necessity
might arise within a short period, and he hoped the Govern-
ment would not allow dust to be thrown into their eyes in a
matter which so much concerned the interests of humanity and
of the empire.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir T. FREMANTLE was sorry to hear the Hon. Ba-
ronet speak so disparagingly of the intentions of the Govern-
ment and so hopelessly of the prospects which might be opened
to the Irish fisheries by this Bill. The Hon. Baronet had not
made out by his statistics the case which he had alleged against
the Government and the Bill. No exertion would be neglected
to bring all the information available to the Government which
would be laid before Parliament before the end of the present ses-
sion. The Right Hon. Baronet then went into a minute an .lysis
of the products of the Irish fisheries for several years past. The
system of giving boats and nets had failed, and with every at-
tention which the Government had been able to give to the
subject, he was not prepared to say, that Parliament ought to
be asked for increasing the sums of money to be given for piers
and harbours to extend the fisheries.
Mr. SHELL said that his Hon. Friend deserved much com-
mendation for bringing the subject before the House.—( Hear.)
Sir John Burgoyne was unquestionbly a very able man, but
he was not equal—nor could any man be equal to the dis-
charge of that gentleman's manifold duties.—( Hear.) He
thought that it was not just to confound the system recom-
mended by his Hon. Friend with what was called the " Bounty
system," which every reasonable man deprecated. He would
recommend the loan system in preference.
Mr. WYSE concurred with his Hon. and Learned Friend,
and condemned the measure before the House. He was in
favour of the loan system, because, in no instance, had loans
been advanced without repayment, and great advantage to the
public, as well as to the individuals.
Lord BERNARD could not concur in the reproaches cast
upon the Board of Works in Ireland, and he believed that there
could be no better means of promoting peace and happiness in
Ireland without providing the means of industry to the people.
Immediately upon the Noble Lord's conclusion,
Sir C. NAPIER rose and said that he thought it was now
the time for him to put his question respecting the state o
the navy—( Order, order, and laughter.)
The SPEAKER explained that the Gallant Officer was out
of order, and after some short discussion, the Gallant Com-

modore gave way.
Mr. FRENCH believed that Ireland had sufficient capital
in herself to carry on her own affairs. From the construction
of railroads in that country he trusted that Ireland would never

again call upon that House for any assistance. He did not
think that any benefit accrued to Ireland from the enactment

of laws respecting fisheries in that country.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then made a few observations, after
which the subject dropped.
ORDINANCE ESTIMATES.
On reading the order of the day for going into Committee,
Sir C. NAPIER drew the attention of the House to the
state of the defences of the naval ports and arsenals, and also
the harbours for the protection of the mercantile marine. He
• referred to the motion made by Mr. Pitt, in 1786, recommend.
ing the defence of their naval ports and arsenals. He would
ask them whether it was not much more necessary now, after a
peace of thirty years, to turn their attention to the defence of
their naval ports, than immediately after a war, when such a
thing was unlikely. He then alluded to the opinion of the
Prince de Joinville on the subject. It seemed to him that this
country had changed sides with France, and stood with their
arms folded, while the French were engaged in fortifying their
ports and arsenals with works of the most extraordinary
strength and magnitude. He then detailed the diffe-
rent steam-vessels, and the respective amount of their
horse power. They had 23,000 horse power in their
steam navy, while the French had 56,476 horse power.
The French depended less upon their tonnage than horse
power. All the French say is, let them look at our horse
power and the facility we have of embarking men on board
those vessels, and they will see that they cannot prevent us.
The size of the former was 2,000 tone, whilst the tonnage of the
Terrible was only 1,800, and they had thus great facilities of
embarking men. The French had an army of 320,000 men
and 80,000 horses, and by means of their rivers, canals, and
steam-boats, the) could bring into this country an immense
force if the exigency of war rendered such a thing necessary.
That, at least, ought to cause a dread in the minds of the Eng-
lish. Then take Plymouth. He would contend for it that al-
though a breakwater had been recently put there, yet it pre-
sented no feature whatever calculated to resist the successful

attack of a determined enemy from any quarter. Ports.
mouth was in the same, if not a worse position, and it
had nothing to prevent the entrance of a strong fleet.
Then he came next to Pembroke ; that had a very large hos-
pital and very largo vessels were built there ; but still it was
quite undefended. Sheerness was still worse; for although the
docks and harbours there cost nearly five millions of money,
still it had no solid, formidable defences. Now, he would
ask, was this a state for this country to be in? or was it pos_
s,ible that it would be suffered to continue? The Gallant
Officer then stated the number of instances in which the French
had put successfully to sea, and evaded the English men-of-
war, notwithstanding all their watchfulness,' and arrived in
Egypt, and landed an army of 40,000 men in that country, in
spite cf all that the English fleet could do, though under the
command of one of the ablest officers the country ever had.

Even supposing. that a fleet of steam-vessels were ready for
action at any of the ports of this country, with soldiers ready
to embark, yet if a gale of wind sprung up, the steamers would not
be able to get out, unless at an expense of all their fuel,
titihile in the meantime the French, or any other foreign
would have a start of five or six hours of us,
and would be

enabled to land forty or fifty thousand mon either in Ireland
or in this country, before the English war-steamers could be
ready; and, then, let him ask what would be the position of
this country if such an event took place ? lie had heard
Dover spoken of as a harbour of refuge, but he doubted very
much if a convoy could get in there in a South-Easterly gale
of wind ; at the same time he doubted very much if
it could not be made a safe harbour of re-
fuge, and he did not disapprove of its having
been recommended by the Commissioners, who, he per-
ceived, had also recommended a place between Portsmouth and
Dover, and Portsmouth itself and Dartmouth ; but the latter
was a tidal harbour, and, therefore, could only be entered in
deep water. The Commissioners had also recommended Dun •
geness, but taking that and the whole of the rest of the coast, he
did not know a single place that afforded a harbour of refuge.
He had detained the House thus long upon this question, but
his object in doing so, was to try and impress upon her Ma-
jesty's Government the absolute necessity there existed for
making an immediate survey of the whole coast of the
country, with a view to ascertaining which were the best
places for harbours of refuge, and to take measures for
their prompt formation ; for if they did not they would per-
hap find, when it was too late, that they had reason to regret
not having taken his advice. There was one other point to
which he would refer, before he sat down, and that was the
increased danger of collision which was likely to arise off the
coast of Africa, in consequence of the recent treaty that had
been entered into respecting the slave-trade. He thought
that the dangers from this source were increased to
an extent far greater than what they were by the
right of search treaty, for it was scarcely possible now to avoid
breils and collision, especially where choleric and hot-headed
men came in contact. On a consideration of all those things
he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would not ask for a small
sum, but a very large sum, to place the country--particularly
the southern portion of it—in a proper state of defence, for
the day might come when they would have cause to regret if
these precautionary steps were neglected.
Captain BOLDERO said that the Gallant Officer entirely
overlooked the fact, that to enable any power to effect the mis-
chief he pointed out, they must first have the supremacy of the
ocean. He felt satisfied that the officers who were appointed
to superintend the fortifications on the coast were persons who
might be confided in as having taken every precaution
which the greatest skill and patriotism could sug-
gest for that purpose.—( Hear.) When he mentioned
the name of Sir Geo. Host and Colonel Mercer, he thought he
gave a sufficient guarantee for the confidence of the countly
that nothing was wanting to place the country in a proper state
of defence. With respect to the attacks of a foreign foe, that
had been so forcibly dwelt upon by the Gallant Member, he
thought that if we had nothing else to depend upon but the
steam-boats and common tug-boats that were plying on the
Thames, they could in a very short time be placed in a condi-
tion to repel any such attack, however formidable.
Mr. RICE said that after the two commissions which had
reported upon the subject, after the opinion expressed by Sir
Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington, he thought that
something ought to be done to improve the fortifications at
Portsmouth. He was not one of those who allowed their minds
to be influenced by groundless alarms, but he was certainly of
opinion, when he looked across the channel, and saw the acti-
vity which prevailed there in the fortification of Dunkirk,
Boulogne, and Cherbourg, he thought that something ought to
be done with regard to the ports on the southern coast of Eng-
land. He hoped that the Government would look to the subject
in time. It was a question on which every military man, every
naval and civil officer, were agreed on, and he was sure that if a
sum of money were asked for this purpose, the House would
gladly acquiesce in the justice and propriety of the demand.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Gallant Officer opposite (Sir
C. Napier) hart a great advantage over her Majesty's Govern-
ment in discussing this subject. Still he did:not ace how the
Gallant Officer could believe that it would be to the public ad-
yantage to point out the weakest parts of the kingdom.—
(Hear.) The Gallant Officer mitht think it consistent with
his duty to point out the weakest harbour in the kingdom, but
he (Sir R. Peel) thought the House would be of opinion that
it would inconsistent with the duty of the Government to
point out in what respect the Gallant Officer's views were er-
roneous. if the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's views were to
be carried out, it would involve an expenditure of something
like 25,000,000/., at the very least.—(Laughter.) The Gallant
Officer wanted harbours of refuge at Dover, Portland, and
Harwich, which had been recommended by the harbour
Commissioners, and he complained that there was no har-
bour recommended to be made at Portland, and between
Portland and Portsmouth. The Gallant Officer then looked
to the West Coast, and said that the only safe harbour these
was Liverpool. The Gallant Officer then wished the East to
be supplied with harbours of refuge. He doubted not if all these
were granted, the Gallant Officer would conclude with a sup-
plemental request for similar harbours to be established on
the west coast of Ireland.—(Hear, hear, from Sir C. Napier. )
And if that was granted, no doubt the Gallant officer would
end with some request for the Channel Islands.—( Hear,
hear, from Sir C. Napier, and laughter.) He (Sir Robert
Peel) did not think it was at all prudent to rest with confi-
dence upon pacific declarations from other Powers, but he
thought it would be very impolitic to involve the country in
expenses equal to those necessary in time of war. The Ord-
nance estimates and the estimates for the navy had this year
been increased; but in that increase no provision was made
for the better fortification of the Channel Islands. Her Ma-
jesty's Goverment had appointed Commissioners to inquire
into the subject of harbours of refuge, and those Commis-
sioners had made a full report. With respect to the harbours
of refuge, he could tell the Hon. Gentleman that the sub-
ject had not escaped the attention of the Government. If
there were one point which required the utmost eaution, it
was that of spending millions of money upon harbours of re-
fuge. He had seen hundreds of thousands of pounds spent
upon harbours of refuge, and ho had lived to see the harbours
filled up in consequence of precautions not having been taken
with respect to the sedimentary deposit. Since the report of
the Commissioners, her Majesty had been pleased to summon
some of the most eminent engineers in the country upon this
subject. They had been requested to consider the points
upon which the report of the Admiralty Commissioners was
not considered satisfactory. Those gentlemen reported that it
was necessary, in the first place, before a harbour was esta-
blished at Dover, to le have experiments made as to the
amount of sedentary deposits. Those experiments had been
made, but the report of the engineers had not yet been made.
When that report was made, it would then be for her Majes-
ty's Government to consider the course. The subject had re-
ceived, and was receiving, the fullest consideration from her
Majesty's Government, and he trusted that this assurance
would be satisfactory to the Hon. Member for Dover
Lord PALMFRSTON said that it was not perfectly fair
that the Right Hon. Baronet should bring the charge against
his Hon. and r _ant Friend, that he had given no previous
notice of this question, for it was perfectly well known that his
Hon. and Gallant Friend had consulted on this matter with
the Right Hon. Baronet, and therefore the Right Hon. Baro-
net ought to have been prepared for the motion of his Hon.
and Gallant Friend. It was very surprising, indeed, that
any Prime Minister —that any Minister of the Crown—
should say that he was ignorant of the proceedings in foreign
Courts ; for if this admission did nothing else, it certainly
proved that the Ministry did not do their duty. This matter
was one of real importance, inasmuch as it was the duty of the
Government to call the attention of the country to the efficient
state of the ports. He thought there should be no mystery
in the state of their defences. Did foreign countries
imitate that mystery ? No. For in the Chamber of De-
puties there were the most free discussions on the
subject of the fortifications of Paris, and no attempt had ever
been made at concealment. What was the number of the
French army ? 340,000. And our whole army only con-
sisted of 100,000, which, after supplying our colonial posses-
sions left only 50,000 at home. The French army numbered
340,000 men, and, deducting those sent to their fo-
reign possessions, there were still left at home 280,000 men.
Although we were separated from France by the sea, he should
think the security of the country was not adequately provided
for by a force of some 40,000 or 50,000 men. We should imi-
tate the example of Prussia and Russia, and other continental
States, and keep an army in reserve to protect us from any
sudden inroad from a foreign enemy. The extended applica-
tion of steam navigation, and the multiplicity of railways, did
practically bring the opposite shores of the Continent into
contact with this country.—(Bear, hear.) When he
had had the honour of being at the head of the
Foreign-office, on one occasion Prince Talleyrand was talking
about some very animated debates in the Chamber of Depu-
ties, and observed to him that the duties of the office which
he (Lord Palmerston) had to perform were easier than
those which had to be performed in the similar office in
France. He asked for an explanation. Why, replied Prince
Talleyrand, your naval force has placed you in such a posture
of defence from foreign invasion, that your attention is not
much directed to the state of your defences at home. The
Parliament was called on to give greater attention to this
matter. Then the Hon. and Gallant Officer had said you
need not be under any apprehension, because no danger
can accrue to this country from a foreign invasion,
while our navy retains the supremacy of the sea. After the
numerous instances in which large fleets had escaped and re-
turned safe into harbour, it was perfectly manifest it was not
necessary to have the supremacy of the sea while steamers
sailed for the transportation of troops. The case in which his
Hon. and Gallant Friend required Parliamentary interference,
and which he wished to impress on the attention of the House,
was not the conducting of operations during the carrying on of
a war. If you had time to increase your army and had
equipped a sufficient fleet after a certain period, he admitted
the means which his Hon. Friend considered inadequate
might be trusted to, but when the Right Honourable
Baronet talked of the plan of his Hon. Friend as a way to give
information to the enemy, he would wish the Right Hon.
Baronet to make inquiries, and to ask the French Admiral who
brought last year into this country the French King, what was
his opinion as to the nature of the defences at Portsmouth har-
bour ? Pie had already expressed surprise that the harbour
had not been put in a better state of defence. The Govern-
ment had been told that if a dash were to be made by a number
of armed steamers, there was no obstacle to prevent them from
entering into the harbour. He (Lord Palmers on) had been
told that the Government did not like to interfere with
the present defences, because it would be a breach of the
negotiation existing between the two countries ; but so
far from weakening the negotiation, improved defences would
strengthen it, by placing the country in a condition to repel
any sudden invase n. Cherbourg, Dunkirk, and other ports
on the Continent, had been put in a state of defence, and he
would contend that it was the bounden duty of the Govern-
ment, considering the facilities which steam afforded for a sud-
den transportation of troops, not only to go on increasing the
number of the steam force of the country, but to place those
vulnerable points, the dock-yards, in a state of security,
to repel any sudden attack which might arise from numerous
unforeseen causes. That was the answer he would give
to the little attempt at ridicule which the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet had endeavoured to throw upon the
statement of his Gallant Friend. If it was intended by France
to undertake the destruction of Portsmouth or Plymouth
dockyards, thousands of Frenchmen would be found ready to
undertake the task, or perish in the attempt. It was necessary
to have harbours on the coast, not only for the protection of
commercial fleets from the dangers of the boisterous elements,
but also to appoint points of concentration for steamers to de-
fend the coast. The Right Hon. Baronet had said these mat-
ters required great' and serious attention, and ho had stated
that large sums had been expended without suf-
ficient previous inquiries having beers made, and
that he was unwilling to incur any further expense
without being first assured that the place intended to be
strengthened was really practicable for defence. He (Lord
Palmerston) considered the Government were right in pausing
in their expenditure, as regarded extensive points, but there
were several smaller harbours, about which there were not two
opinions, that they should be put in a posture of defence, and
the Government ought, as speedily as possible, to commence
the erection of the works. When a Government, having an
important object to accomplish, sets about to inquire foe facts
which no person had ever asked for, it was going out of the way
altogether unnecessarily. lie hoped that another year would not
be delayed helore something was done to remedy the defenees
of the country. Several years might elapse before the works
would be made useful, still, he considered they ought to
begin the harbours of refuge against which nothing had been
alleged, and the advantages were admitted to be great. They
ought to take example of the French nation, who had made
great exertion to put their country in a state of defence. The
fortifications of Paris had cost 14,000,0001., yet they
had only occupied four years in the erection. This
was a course worthy of example, and it was of the
highest national importance that the dock-yards should be
placed in a proper state of defence. The great increase that
had taken place in steam navigation during the last few years
required that dock-yards should be placed in a better state of
defence than before. He hoped the Government would take