The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-02 00:00:00

progress were about to be rescinded; and he would tell the
Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues, that if they were done
away with, a great blow would be given, and a great injury
inflicted on the general interests of humanity.—( Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had adverted to the
fact of the treaty which was signed last year between England
and the United States, as having removed all causes of present
misunderstanding, and facilitated most materially the settle-
ment of others. He (Lord Palmerston) regretted to say that
he could not see, in the last speech of the President of the
United States, when speaking of the Oregon territory, any
manifestation whatever of that feeling of conciliation and good
will which they were so positively assured was to he the result
of the treaty of last year.—( Hear, hear.) He saw exactly the
same language with regard to the Oregon territory as they had I
been accustomed to see with respect to the North-Eastern
boundary—the same talk of arms—the same advice to establish
military posts.—( Hear, hear.) He could not, therefore, but ,
fear that the same arguments which had been successful with
England, in regard to the North-Eastern territory, would be used
by America, and expected to prevail in regard to the territory
on the shores of the Pacific. In February, 1842, it would be
in the recollection of Hon. Members the speech from the
throne announced that Government was in negotiation with
several Powers, which it was trusted would lead to conventions
founded on just principles, and which would lead to great
commercial advantages to all parties. Now they had never
yet heard who were these several Powers, nor what was the
result of these negotiations. It might be presumed, however,
that amongst .the Powers thus alluded to were France, the
United States, Portugal, Spain, and Brazil. He (Lord
Palmerston) believed that with none of those Powers had con-
ventions been concluded. They perhaps would hear, if not
that night, then in the coterie of the session, what were these
negotiations, and what were the results of them. They knew
that with the United States the determination of the English
Government to maintain the sliding scale forbade success to
any negotiation—they knew that with Portugal negotiations
had not succeeded—they knew nothing likely was to be done in
Spain—they knew there had been negotiations with Brazil,
and questions might probably be asked, negotiations being
at an end, why they had not there been successful ? They
had indeed been informed that the cause of the want of
success was this—that the British Government said
they were prepared to admit Brazilian sugar, the product of
free labour, but not sugar the produce of tree labour ; and,
consequently, that slavery in that country must be abolished,
or at all events considerably modified. The offer of the British
Government might have been made in good faith, but if it
was, then it showed little knowledge of the feelings, habits,
and prejudices of the Brazilians. He (Lord Palmerston)
would as soon think of asking English gentlemen to alio'. ish
the corn-laws, as expect to see the Brazilian Government abo-
lish slavery. The one was just as likely as the other. Ru-
mours had prevailed of the intention of Government to pro-
pose some considerable ameliorations ef the criminal law. If
such intention did prevail, they might reasonably have ex-
pected some allusion to it in the speech from the throne. To
it, however, he could offer no objection, for instead of pledging
them to so many things, as supposed by the Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume), it pledged no one to anything. In-
deed, there was nothing in it, and, therefore, he should give his
vote for the address in answer to it, and against the amend-
ments which had been submitted to the House.—( Hear. )
Mr. ROEBUCK said the debate of that evening presented
a most ex.raordinary spectacle. He had always learned to be-
lieve that the time for the proper consideration of the subjects
which had only been hinted at was upon the occasion of making
an address to the Crown. But the Noble Lord the Member
for London (Lord John Russell) had taken to the error that an
address to the Crown was a mere form, and that sentiment
had been re-echoed by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government, so that they were to understand that the bu-
siness for which they had met there was merely to listen
to two speeches delivered by gentlemen in somewhat extra-
ordinary dresses, and that such was to be the sum and substance
of that night's debate. Ought it to be believed that at the
moment when the very union was threatened that nothing was
to be said on that matter or on other questions of vital policy ?
For at that moment they must all know that the danger was
imminent of a dissolution of the union. They could not escape
from that danger, and yet at that precise moment were they
called oe by the leaders on both sides of the House to be silent
on the subject. Did that become the position of parties in
Parliament, did it become the position of the Ministry, to be
utterly silent, callous as it were, in such anxious and vital cir-
cumstances, to the happiness and prosperity of the two countries?
There were at present two particular questions which deeply
interested and agitated the two countries ; the one the corn-
laws, and the other the legislative union between England and
Ireland. And both these questions by both sides of the House
were consigned to entire oblivion.—(Cries of " No, no.")
He thought great danger would accrue to the union by the
course of conduct which the House chose to adopt that night.
—( Hear, hear). He thought that the House was playing
O'Connell's card, when it allowed the report to go to Ireland
that it suffered the present proceedings in that country to pass
without comment.—( Cheers). They were doing all they could
to effect the separation of the two countries in passing over
altogether the question which agitated all Ireland from end to
end.—( Hear, hear). O'Connell would say that the House had
done more for him in passing over these questions in silence,
than he could have effected for himself.—(Hear.) Whatever
might be the result, upon the Noble Lord the Member for
London must rest the sole responsibility, because he stood
forward as the great leader of the Liberal party in this country,
of passing over those two great questions, the repeal of the
cern-laws and the repeal of the union.—(Cheers). He (Mr.
Roebuck) was obliged to put aside the substantive motion
which he had intended to bring forward respecting the
grievances of the people. He did not at all agree in the opinion
that the trials in Dublin would be affected by the discussion
which he bad proposed to bring forward. But he was obliged
to postpone his purpose, because he was deserted by the great
body of the Liberal party in that House.
Lord HOWICK did not think that the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down had rightly represented the opinions of
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, or of his Noble Friend who
sat near him. He (Lord Howick) did not think that because
the House did not enter into a discussion of all the topics
which might be alluded to in the speech, the address was a
mere form. It would be very inconvenient on the occasion of
moving the address to enter into the discussion of a great num-
ber and variety of topics.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had said, and said truly, that the present
state of Ireland was highly momentous. But he would ask the
Hon. Gentleman whether it would be convenient to take up
the discussion of these two great questions, the corn-laws
and the union, in a debate upon the address ?—( Hear, hear.)
The Queen's speech was of great use in laying before the
House the general topics of the session. But if the House
was to go into a discussion of each of these, it would be a
useless waste of time, since the subjects must come before them
one by one in a more tangible form.—( Hear, hear.) When,
therefore, the Hon. and Learned Member said that in voting
the address without the discussion of those subjects, they were
consigning the grievances of Ireland and the corn-laws to obli-
vion, he had most grossly misapprehended both the Right
Hon. Gentleman and his Noble Friend.—( Hear, hear.)
On the part of his Noble Friend and himself, he would say
that not one moment should be lost in bringing before the
House both these topics. At the same time he must express
his most entire concurrence in what had been said on both
sides of the House, that it would be most inconvenient to bring
forward those questions respecting Ireland during the present
trial.—( Hear, hear.) It would be impossible to discuss the
measures which were necessary tot give peace to that
unhappy country, the objects of the present trials, the
policy of the Government, and the manner in which
the prosecution had been conducted. Could they enter into a
discussion of that description without appearing in that House
to be making speeches which would be addressed, not so much
to the House as to the jury which were to try the case ?—( Hear.)
It was an evil, unavoidable in trials of this description, that
they enlist political feeling, and there was in Ireland no evil
greater than the effect of political feeling upon the administra-
tion of justice.—(Hear, hear.) 'I hat was the curse
of Ireland—(Loud cheers)—and would it be wise to
make the jury-box now, snore than ever, the scene of party
warfare ?—( Cheers.) No; but he trusted that when the
trials were concluded, his Noble Friend would bring these
subjects before the House ; and he trusted that the House
would see the necessity of taking measures, before toe late, to
rescue Ireland from the danger with which that country and
the nation were threatened.—( Cheers.) As to the corn-laws,
he thought the question too large to be discussed on an
occasion like the present ; yet he could not help remarking upon
what had fallen upon this subject from the Hon. Bart. opposite.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that he would not con-
sent to a fixed duty for the sake of revenue, and he made that
declaration in such a manner as to render a compromise be-
tween the two parties impossible.—( Hear, hear.) Whether
the Right Hon. Gentleman was a good friend to the agricul-
turists, or was consulting their interests in making such a
compromise impossible, it was not for him to say; but he
' thought that the time for compromise was not yet gone by.
When the Hon. Gentleman, and those who acted with him, came
to that determination, they reduced the question to this: " Are
we to maintain the corn dews, or is the importation of corn to
be free.—(Cheers.) That was the state to which the ques-
tion was now brought.—(Cheers.) And whenever it was
brought to an issue he (Lord Howick) would adhere to the
opinions which he had'avowed since he first set foot in that
House in Parliament, and on the hustings, in a purely agri-
cultural county, in favour of the free importation.—(Cheers.)
After the opinions which the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed
it would be idle for those upon the Opposition side of the present
House of Commons to make any proposition for a fixed duty.
But if the. Right Hon. Gentleman should hereafter re-consider
his opinion and give them the offer of a compromise, he (Lord
Howick) for one would gladly close with the offer.—( Hear,
hear.) Before he sat down, he must express his cordial con-
currence in thosu principles of foreign policy to which the
Right Hon. Baronet had given expression. He believed that
there was no greater curse to the world, to civil,sation, and
humanity, than the carrying on in every court in Europe, a
petty struggle between a so-called French and English party.
—( Hear. ) He abominated the whole system.—(Cheers. )
He thought that we ought. to abstain from giving advice to
other nations as to the mode of their carrying on their own
affairs.—( Hear, hear.) When our Minister ventured to give
his advice to the Court at which he represented us, he grew,
by little and little, more exasperated against those whom he
could not influence, and more attached to the party which ap-
peared to yield to his counsel. In nine cases out of ten where
this conduct was pursued, two factions were raised—a French
faction and an English faction • and the unfortunate
country became the prey of both.—(Great cheering.)
He cordially agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in depre-
cating that sort of interference, and he could not help object-
ing to one expression made use of by his Noble Friend, the
Member for Tiverton, in adverting to the affairs of Spain.
"The late Regent had fallen from power, and the state of things
was such as one could hardly describe as a military despotism."
Now he (Lord Howick) concurred with his Noble Friend in
regretting what had recently occurred in that country. But
at the same time he, rejoiced that the Right Hon. Baronet and
the French Government had abstained from taking any part in
those affairs.—(Cheers.) He hoped that the people of Spain
would settle their own affairs without any interference, for he
thought that was the only way in)which they could return to a
state of security of person and property.--( Hear, hear.) He
did not mean on that occasion to pursue the topic further, but
from had what fallen from gentlemen on both sides, he did not
think he could have abstained from troubling the House so far.
—( Cheers. )
Mr. WYSE could not allow it to go abroad, that the repre-
sentatives of Ireland were insensible to the condition in which
the country stood at present, or that they would lose any op-
portunity of expressing their indignation at the condition in
which it was at present placed, and their anxiety about the
dangers to which it was exposed, or that they shrank from the

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expression of their opinions on one side or the other. They
did not wish to throw any obstacle in the way of
justice, or to interfere with the sacredness of the jury-box;
but, at the same time, he, for one, was determined not to
allow that debate to pass over without expressing his
opinion that all the questions connected with the present pro-
ceedings in Ireland should be gone into on the earliest occa-
sion. He went home to his constituents with the statement
that nothing had been done for Ireland but a Bill of Pains
and Penalties, and he came back to that House with feelings
of still greater exasperation and indignation. The result of
the course which Government was pursuing would be, to leave
only two parties in Ireland, whose animosity to each other
would be more bitter than ever had been known even in that
country. The question was now raised, whether the future
rule of Ireland was to be in the spirit of judicial tyranny or as
a close corporation?
The O'CONOR DON entirely concurred in what had
fallen from his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford, and
he Wished it to be understood that if he concurred in the ajdr;
dress they would take the opportunity otbringing_the-atten
of the House to the grievances of Ireland.