The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-04 00:00:00

MAYNOOTII.

Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from Hogs-
den, in Oxfordshire, against any further grant to
Maynooth.

THE ASHBURTON TREATY.

Lard ASHBURTON regnestcfl their Lo-:_ hips' pn- I
mi:3inn to offer r. fcs oaserve ions upon n. subject,
which though uniinuntedly in sonic re:pecfs a personal
one, was oleo of a natth.e. At the trrminatioa of the
conferenc•,:,, t. which he had the honour to negotiate on
the part of this country with the United States of
America, he had the great satisfaction of receiving
the most unequivocal expression of their Lord.
ships' approbation ; and he, therefore, felt himself
more bound to notice certain great misrepresentations
which had been made in another place with respect to
his conduct en that occasion. Their Lordships House
was the only place where he could give an explanation,-
and he trusted their Lordships would excuse him
for so doing. He was not about to enter into any
general discussion as to the merits of that mea-
sure ; but he7hoped their Lordships would do him the
justice to recollect that when on a former occasion lie
entered into a discussion on that question, he took no
notice whatever of the various triticioms, some of which
were not very just, which had been made in another
place. He should not upon the present occasion have
intruded himself upon their Lordships' notice if
it were not with the view of contradicting what
had been stated as positive facts in another place. He
did not complain of the personal manner in which the
Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) had brought this sub-
ject forward, because that Noble Lord was constantly
making similar reflections upon his conduct, in a tone
which it was to be regretted the Noble Lord did not
confine to an individual case, but applied it to questions
affecting the general interests of the country.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rk-se to order. He
had no objection to listen to any explanation the Noble
Lord might desire to make, but he hoped the Noble Lord
would not fall into the error he was deprecating by
attacking a person who was not present to defend himself.
Lord ASHBURTON said he did not wish to use any
stronger expressions than were necessary for the occa-
sion, but he at the same time thought that the expres-
sions of which his Noble Friend complained were
quite necessary, in order to justify the line which it
was his duty on this occasion to take, and to
repel
those attacks which the Noble Lord (Lord Palmers-
ton) was in the habit so lightly and so flippantly of
making upon him. The House was aware that that was
the only House in which he (Lord Ashburton) had the
opportunity of repelling attacks of this nature. If he
understood these attacks aright, what he was accused of
was, that in the late treaty which he had the honour
to negotiate he had unjustifiably ceded the territory of
Madawaska, on the banks of the river St. John. Now,
it was necessary to state that the territory of Made.
weskit, was nothing more than a narrow strip of land
on the backs of the St. John, which comprised a
straggling village some two or three miles in
length ; agd it should be recollected that, on
two or three occasions, this very same terri-
tory had been ceded. The dispute between this
country and the United States had been first referred to
the decision of the King of the Netherlands. by whom it
had been allowed to the United States. The Americans
had refused to abide by the award of the King of the
Netherlands, and twenty-five years afterwards Lord Pal-
merston, considering that the best mode of settling a
dispute of this nature was to divide the con-
tested district between the two countries, ceded
the territory of Madawaska to the United States. His
own (Lord Ashburton's) decision had been impugned
as extravagant, and yet it was better than that
of Lord Palmerston, for it secured to this country
those intermediate heights between the St. John
and the St. Lawrence, which from their command
of the latter river, and the consequent power of inter-
rupting the navigation of that river, were the only
really valuable portions of the territory in dispute.
He should further state that he implied no blame upon
the Secretary of State for making that proposal.
Nor did he think the line at all unfair. But,
combining all the circumstances, and consider.
ing the line decided upon by the King of the
Netherlands, their Lordships would see that his (Lord
Ashburton's) line was so much the best, that it was
hardly fair to cast upon him any reproach whatever.
But now, with respect to the Madawaska settlement, a
Noble Lord in the other House of Parliament (Lord J.
Russell) stated that when he held the office of Secretary
for the Colonies he directed negotiations to he entered
into by Lord Sydenham with Mr. Webster, the result
of which was, that Lord Sydenham refused to allow the
Americans to retain that settlement, Mr. Webster on the
other hand refusing to give it up. The Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell) said that one of the last acts
of his official life was to declare his appro-
bation of Lord Sydenham's course. Now, he
(Lord Ashburton) believed their Lordships would be
surprised when he informed them that the whole of that
statement of facts was without foundation. There was
no negotiation whatever on the subject between Lord
Sydenham and Mr. Webster. There was a negotiation
between Mr. Fox, our Minister at Washington, and
Mr. Webster, but not on the subject of the Madawaska.
settlement. The Noble Lord, however (Lord J. Rus-
sel), prided himself very much upon the course which he
and Lord Sydenham had taken, and had chosen
to make it the ground of a reproach upon
him (Lord Ashburton). He had a most sincere and
unfeigned respect for Lord John Russell, and from a
long and intimate knowledge of the matter, he was
perfectly assured that his Noble Friend would not
make any statement which he knew to be unfounded.
Yet that statement of fact was so—whether it was that
the Noble Lord in going out of office dreamed of these
facts—(A laugh)—or took the statement upon seine
light authority—(A laugh)—there was no founda-
tion for it. The negotiations between Mr. Fox and Mr.
' Webster arose out of the disturbances which took place
between the irregular troops of the State of Maine and
our fencibles in New Brunswick. It had been settled
that there should be a treaty on the boundary in that
direction, and Mr. Webster and Mr. Fox agreed only to
fix upon a boundary, in the mean time, to put an end to
those disturbances, until the treaty should be settled; But
there could be no treaty on the boundary in the
Madawaska statement, without the consent of the States
of Maine and Massachusets ; and-When he (Lord Ash-
burton) was in the republic, he had to wait for the
arrival of the Deputies from those States. He had felt
himself called upon to make this explanation, which he
did without any intention to cast imputations upon others.
The Companies'Ciauses Bill was read a third time and
passed.
On the motion of the Earl of DALHOUSIE, the fol-
lowing Bills were read a first time :—The Railway
Clauses Consolidation Bill, the Companies' Clauses
Consolidation Bill, and the Lands Clauses Consolida.
tion Bill.

'I he House then divided :
For the motion
Against it
Majority against the motion
NOTICE OF MOTION.

COL-LIEftIES RAILWAY BILL.

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 4, 1845

tee. He should also remind the House that it was an
express declaration of the Board, that in the event of any
facts transpiring which affected their decision, that they
should reconsider it, and republish it in the Gaztite.
Thre was nothing to prevent the reconsideration of that
decision within the present session. And as these
reports were not considered at the usual hour for
public bnsiness, he trusted that if the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman was not acceded to, that circumstance
would not prejudice the petitioners in Commit.ee.
Mr. DODD begged to thank the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite for the interest he had evinced
in the object which he had the he nour of bring-
ing before the House. He would also beg to
thank the Vice-President of the Board of Trade
for the suggestion which he had made with respect
to the republication of the reports of that Board in the
Gareth. If the House would consider that the Asti•
tioners were 57 milts from London, and by the alteration
that they would be brought within an hour and a-
hal r---

The SPEAKER must remind the Hon. Member that
he had no right at present to go into the merits of the
petition.
Mr. BORTHWICK thought that the present diffi•
culty arose from the constitution of the Railway De-
ptrtment of the Board of Trade, which was partly
executive and partly legislative. What he would
gest was this, whether they might not waive the general
rule in the present instance ?
Mr. HAWES thought that the House would have
heard what the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Sir G.
Clerk) had to say in reply to the proposition of his
Right lion. Friend (Sir G. Grey). If he considered
that the Speaker had pronounced an opinion upon the
matter, he would not say a word on the subject, but he
understood that the Speaker had left the matter in the
hands of the House. He thought that an early day
should be fired for bringing on this subject.
Mr. MANGLES said that the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Lambeth had suggested that an early day
should be appointed for discussing this subject, but
he thought a Committee could very much better inves-
tigate the matter than the whole Howe. It ought not
to be heard by the House either in the light of private
or public business.—(lronical cheers from Lord Howiek.)
The Noble Lord cheered him. He (Mr. Mangles)
was interested in railroads as well as the Noble
Lord, and preferred the whole mutter to go
before a Committee. He could not conceive a better
mode of showing by proof that decisions of the Board
AN cre wrong than by giving those who thought so an op-
portunity of going before a Committee.
Mr. RICARDO did not think it quite consistent with
the dignity of the. Bterd of Trade to object on a mere
point of

Sir G. CLERK Paid he did not raise any objection
on the part of the L'eard of Trade on a mere point of
form, but thought the Horse should set on a unifo►•m
principle, end be guided by what had taken place in
matters of this sort.

Mr. THOMAS S. DUNCOMBE thought the
matter was well worthy of consideration. He
should certainly take the sense of the House, even if
he stood alone, and the House might depend upon it that
on another day they would have similar petitions until
they brought the House to its senses with regard to this
matter.

Mr. HUME gave notice that he should, on the 17th,
bring forward his motion relating to Sir If. Pottinger.
PAYMASTERS AND PLTRERS IN THE
ROYAL NAVY.

(Hear, hear.) We just give enough, by voting annually
9,0001, to discourage and paralise all voluntary contri-
butions.—(Hear, hear.) Remove the grant altogether,
and you will find, on the part of the people
of Ireland, I have no doubt, a disposition to
pecuniary sacrifices, and to provide some, perhaps an
imperfect, endowment for the religious education of the
Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland. But the grant
of 9,000/. a year, and the public undertaking on the part
of the Government to endow the institution, and to
provide instruction for the priesthood, has effectually
discouraged contributions from others, and yet the
sum we vote is ineffectual and insufficient,—(Hear, hear.)
By continuing this grant now what do we do? If it be
a violation of principle to provide instruction for the
education of the Roman Catholic priesthood, we are
guilty of that violation.—(Hear, hear.) The grant
of 9,0001. a year, professedly for the educa-
tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood, is a
violation of principle at least as great as
any I shall propose to-night. What is the effect of the
existing statutes ? It is not merely that you make a
Parliamentary grant annually, revocable at your plea-
sure,,
but .in the statute-book there are three Acts- of
Parliament—two passed before the union by
the Irish Legislature. and one passed since, in
1808, which adopted and sanctioned this insti-
tution, for the support of which an anneal grant
is made. By the combined effects of these Acts
of Parliament, you provide fer the establishes sot of a
college for the education of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood, and the words you make use of, are,
" the establishment of a College." And though
you may say, that the existing statutes
dis-
claim all connexion with the College, and repudiate it
as a guilty thing with which you would have
no communion, yet whom do these statutes appoint as
the visitors of the College ? The Lord Chancellor, the
highest judicial authority in the country, and the
judges, are the persons whom those statutes appoint as the
visitors of that institution which you so much discourage.
You provide, it is true, by an annual vote only for cer-
tain professors of that College ; but the Act which has
received your sanction expressly speaks of fellowships
of that College to be endowed. The Act originally con-
templated a per:ect system of collegiate education
consisting of scholars, masters, professors, and fellows.
—(Hear.) You have repealed the statute of mortal=
in favour of that body—you have permitted the trustees
to hold land—real property, to the amount of 1,000/. per
annum, for the purpose of providing for that body. By the
Irish Act they are permitts d to hold real property to the
amount of 1,000/. a year, repealing the statute of mort-
main. That was the Act of the Irish Parliament, but
in 1808 tki(s Imperial Parliament distinctly recog-
nised the institution so far as to make a
further provision, still further repealing the mortmain
statute in favour of the College, enabling the trustees
to make certain compromises, and to hold real property,
a; contemplated by the Irish Parliament. You have
enabled the trustees by an express enactment to
provide and as ,ign a chapel, in which the
rights of the Roman Catholic Church can be
performed by a chaplain appointed by the trustees. This
enactment received the sanction of the Legislature, and I
ask whether there has not been a complete violation of
the principle—if principle be involved in it—by. the
stature of the connexion with the Roman Catholic priest-
hood thus deliberately sanctioned by the Government ?
Having then sustained the inconvenience—if inconveni-
ence there be in the departure from principle,
why should not the intentions of Parliament be
carried into effect? You have assigned 9,91)01.
a year for several years past, as a provision
for this College, in respect to which establishment a
vote has been annually made, to be expressly applied to
the annual salaries of ten professors in that College.
There are three professors of theology, which
you endow, and to which your grant is applied,
but that grant is so limited in amount that you are not
enabled to assign more to the professors than 120/. a
year.—(Hear, hear.) In seven out of ten cases, the
provision made for professors was less than the suns named.
In the case of the three professors of theology, you expect
to have the services of men of learning, of eminence, and
integrity, for a salary of 1201. a year.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear," from Mr. Shell.) And observe that that
salary cannot be increased by means of fees. No other
payment is awarded to these professors than that
which the Parliament provides ; and the sum
which you give is all that they have. That
institution, at the present moment, contains 440
students. I think that 130 of these students belong to
the class denominated pensioners—that is to say. parties
who pay a certain sum for their admission, and
in addition provide for their own support. In
addition there are 230 free students whom the State
professes to maintain. The average sum paid by the
State for each student is 23/. per year.—(" Hear, hear, '
from the Opposition.) For that sum of 231. the student
has to provide his college dress, the furniture of his
rooms, his commons, and in addition, out of the- 231. for
each student, there are to be provided for the repairs of the
College, the expense of coals and a variaty of other in-
cidental expenses.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
Now, if this is a violation of principle, I ask you what
do you gain by it? Surely you gain nothing
by establishing professors of theology at salaries
of 1202 a year each.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
If you violate your principle, surely it is politic—surely
it is wise, to violate it in such a manner as to insure the
services of men of the highest character and of
the most competent attainments.—(Opposition cheers.)
I do not speak at all of those gentlemen who are at pre-
sent professors in that College. I do not mean at all to
derogate from their high character or from their great
attainments.—(Cheers.) But if men of high character
are found from their zeal for their religion, and from
their desire to romote the course of education, to de-
vote that ti e to the public for incompetent
salaries—(
, hear, from the Opposition)—
il
that is no reason why we should not
take measures to secure the services of men of compe-
tent learning, by giving them a proper and requisite pro-
vision.—(Hear, hear, and Opposition cheers.) All I
contend for is that you have no compen-
sation for your violation of principle by voting
so low a pecuniary grant, as to place the parties whom
you charge with your favour in a state of indigence.—
(Opposition cheers.) Now, with regard to the state of the
building. Whatmust be the feelings of ayoung man who en-
. tered that building for the first time—feelings which would
produce an effect upon him for the whole of his after-
life?—(Opposition cheers.) Why, the appearance of the
building is desolate in the extreme. It bears the charac-
ter of a deserted barracks, rather than that of a colle-
giate establishment.—(Cheers.) Now, recollect that
there are 440 students there, receiving your liberality,
It is impossible to insure to each of these students a
' separate room. In many cases, according to the reports
of the Committees, several students are placed in one
room, and in some they ate placed in one bed.
I hold in my hand a report which was made to the
Executive Government, and which was signed by
several, indeed, I may say, by almost all the authorities
connected with that College. I am sure I need make no
apology, if I read the statements contained in it to the
House. It begins—" Your Excellency, we beg leave
humbly to state, that the College of Maynooth has Icng
been struggling under great disadvantages for many
years, in consequence of the very inadequate accommo-
dation provided, and we beg to state that for the purpose
of carrying out the objects intended by the Government,
we instituted an inquiry with the view of laying the
state of its affairs before your Excellency. We exa-
mined first into the internal administration of the Col-
lege, and we find that not only are the salaries of the
professors lower than the usual allowances, but
that this reduction is so great as to interfere with
their comforts to a degree unbecoming a public
institution for the education of the youth of Ireland.
Thus they inflicted a great inconvenience in the removal
of that wholesome restraint which is so necessary to be
kept up during the short period of the student's proba-
tion, in order to render him a practically useful member
of society in that sphere in which it was destined he
should be placed. Notwithstanding every endeavour, a
debt of 4,6001. has been incurred. So insufficient was
the sum granted for the purposes of the College, that
during the term, the authorities were com
pelled to give an additional vacation of two
months for the purpose of saving some of the
expenses. We beg further to state, -that the increased
expenses of the College has had the effect of closing
its doors against that class of society in which candi-
dates from the Roman Catholic priesthood had been
most frequently found. Those who support the scholars
at Maynooth now find the expenses of doing so so
heavy, that numbers of the latter are obliged to with-
draw before the term of their probation is completed.
Their departure has in consequence caused a
diminution Of the profits arising to the Col-
lege from the number .of students there.
To such embarrassments are :they reduced, being fre-
quently obliged to withdraw the students before they
have completed their ordinary ecclesiastical course of
study." I may state, in addition to that, that there are
many cases in which, from the inability of the provisions
to defray the expenses of the College, the sum of 23/.,
the allowance for one student, is obliged to be divided
between two. Now, sir, I have stated fully the state of
the College of Maynooth, and I ask whether I am not
right in saying that you can take no course that is not
preferable to the one now pursued ? It contained a
violation, if it be a violation, of a principle in under-
taking to instruct the priesthood of Ireland, from whose
doctrines you dissent, and to make an inadequate pro-
vision for the education of those for whose instruction
you make yourself responsible. Is it wise ? Would it
be prudent ? Shall we say to the Roman Catholic
subjects we are bound by an inconvenient obligation
contracted by ourselves, and that obligation we will
respect in a surly spirit. We will continue
to give you what you now have—there shall be no im-
provement—there shall be no increase to the giant. We
shall allow the amount to remain so much as the statute
permits—we will, in a surly spirit, give you 9,000/. a
year—and we tell you that we do it, though our con-
science is violated, because it is our intention to adhere
to the statute. When we come to the consideration of
another matter, shall we allow that our conscientious
scruples are violated ? and shall we resolve to discon-
tinue all connexion with the College of Maynooth ? and
shall the burthen of educating the priesthood be thrown
on the people themselves ? There are some, I know,
who consider that a desirable object.—(llear, hear.)
Are we, therefore, to adopt that course, and at the same
time must we tell the Roman Catholics that, on religious
grounds, we absolve ourselves from all further connexion
with. the education of the priesthood ? Before you
adopt that course, you should weigh and fully deliberate
upon the circumstances which attend that establishment.
I do not hesitate to say that, apart from the obligation
of payment, apart from the consideration of the mortified
and irritated feeling which might arise from such an
avowal on your part, namely, that you have conscientious 1
scruples against the continuance of that vote, I do not ,
hesitate to say that I believe the absolute discontinuance
of the vote would be better for all parties than a coms
tinuance of such a state of things as that which I have
described. But I think I can assign a reason why, if
you will, as legislators, take into your account liublic

Captain PECHELL moved that the petition NI hich he
presented yesterday from the paymasters and pursers of
the Royal Navy he printed with the Votes —Agreed to.

Mr. IIOI)GSON gave notice that on the
order of the day for the second reading of the Colleries
Railway Bill (as we understood) being read, he should
call the attention of the House to a letter which had
been published on the subject, and should move that the
order of the day should be discharged.
NEW WRIT FOR GREENOCK.

--- -
Mr. HUME moved that the Speaker do issue his writ
to the Clerk of the Crown to issue a new writ for a
burgess to serve in Parliament, in the room of Roby rt
Wallace, Rig., who since his election had accepted the
office of Steward to the Chiltern hundreds.
GRANT TO MAYNOOTII.
The SPEAKER said that those Members who had
petitions against the additional grant to Maynooth had
better present them at once.
At this announcement almost every Member on the
Ministerial side of the House rose and pointed towards
the table with a roll of petitions which he held in hand.
This simultaneous movement &Hefted roars of laughter.
There were upwards of 000 Members on i he Ministerial
benches, and of these certainly not 20 kept their seats on
the announcement of the Speaker. On the Opposition
side of the House, on which there were about 180 Mem-
bers, not more than twenty had petitions to present on
the subject. The first Member who came forward wu
Mr. HAWES, who presented thirteen petitions from
various Dissenting congregations against any additional
grant to Maynooth.
Mr. STEWART WORTLEY presented petitions
from the West Riding of Yorkshire to the same effect.
Mr. Greene, Mr. Vernon, Mr. Pakington, and Sir
Howard Doulas presented petitions to the same effect.
Sir R. INGLIS presented an immense number of
petitions to the same effect, but from the noise and con-
fusion in the House it was impossible to catch the names
of the places from which these petitions emanated.
Petitions, principally. agstnet any further grant to the
tCollege of Maynooth,,weri •Ipresented ,by Mr. Pattison,
'Mr. Darby, Lord Worley, DM Greene, lord 3. Stewart,
Lord Palmerston, Sir T. Acland, Mr. Dickinson, Mr.
Bankes, Col. Sibthorp, Mr. Spooner, and Mr. M. Milnes.
Petitions were also presented from Glasgow, Chippen-
ham, and various other places, against any increased
grant to Maynooth.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
the whole House, to consider the 40th of George 111.,
cap. 85, Mr. GREENE in the Chair.
Sir R. PEEL rose and spoke as follows :—Mr. Greene,
Sir, in the course of the last session of Parliament I
took the opportunity of publicly declaring, on the part
of her Majesty's Government, that it was our in-
tention, during the recess, to apply ourselves
to the consideration of the state of acade-
mical education in Ireland. I accompanied that
declaration with a distinct intimation that the circum-
stances and position of the Roman Catholic College of
Maynooth would undergo the consideration of the
Government. I added that, undertaking the con-
sideration of the state of Maynooth, it was
our intention to undertake it in a friendly spirit,
and I made that public declaration at that time in order
that due public notice might be given of the
intentions of her Majesty's Government. I
was not unprepared for the demonstration of
opinion which has been made this day. I could
not look back to the discussions which have taken place
in this House with respect to Maynooth, without fore-
seeing that a proposition upon the subject of Maynooth,
connected with its extension, was likely to encounter
the risk of great opposition. I could not disguise
from myself that tbere were many entertaining
strong religious opinions and conscientious scruples, the
sincerity of which cannot be questioned, and which, on
account of their sincerity, are entitled to respect—l say
I could not but foresee that any proposal for an in-
creased grant to Maynooth was likely to be encountered
by an opposition such as that to which I have referred.
And it was because we were so placed that
we have deemed it our duty to enter upon this
difficult task, fully sensible that it would be such,
but also that it was one by which men were
not to be cowed. But, Sir, while we had resolved that
we should undertake this duty, and encounter this diffi-
culty, we had resolved that it should not be ag-
gravated by any such accusation as that we had
concealed our intentions from the country or the public,
or that we had taken any party by surprise.—(` Hear,
hear," from the Opposition.) Sir, it was upon this ac-
count that I declared explicitly and deliberately this in-
tention, on the part of the Government, at so early a
period of last session—an intention not intimated in
any vague or equivocal terms, but plainly and deli-
berately stating that what we would pledge ourselves to
do was to give an improved system of academical
education to Maynooth, with an increase of the public
grant. Sir, in pursuance of the determination we have
taken this grave subject into ourconsideration I shall now
say nothing with respect to one portion of this question
which will become before the House separately. I mean
the question of academical education. The obser-
vations I shall have to make will entirely apply to
this question of the College of Maynooth ; and
it is solely in reference to the institution
that I
am now sp eakin In taking this sub-
ject into consideration, we had to take cognisance of the
.
g
extent of obligation which past Acts of the Legislature
might have imposed upon the Government and the
Parliament for, the support of this institution ; and the
practical effect of the past system, as well as the probable
effect of any alteration which might be made; and given ail
those poirts our best and most mature consideration, I
now, on the part of the Executive Government
of this country, submit to the calm considera-
tion of the House of Commons the proposal
which we are prepared to make. Sir, it has appeared
to us that WQ were at liberty to pursue one of these
courses with respect to the College of Maynooth. We
considered, first, that it was competent to us to
continue, without alteration, the present system
pursued in that institution, and the amount
of the Parliamentary grant annually made
eniiexice
hitherto; secondly, that it was competent to discontinue
that grant, and repudiate the institution altogether, and
all connexion with .it, and, after providing for existing
interests, publicly to notify that, hereafter, no
e
e ea
whatever
is
countryshould and
exist betweenMaynooth.
B
thea
Government of h
But
I need not say that this courso we were not prepared to
eaodmopet.forTwhared in a
third
feroieunrdsley spirit
nirtiot us
ntooffpeurrstuoe
ppoasrilttisomn cheers)—and er
Parliamentary
s )p—roatnedctioton. improve
the the present system of Roman Catholic education—(Op-
_ex(tcenhdee,
rstofraomlibethrael aompopuonsit:
tion.) This we propose to d(', not by
interferen ' ce with the doctrines of the Roman Catholic
creed, but by a more liberal grant to improve the system
and elevate the tone of the Catholic people of Ireland.
Sir, with regard to the first—the continuance, without
alteration or modification of any kind, of the present grant
and the present system, I declare, on the part of her
Majesty's Government, that it is our deliberate convic-
tion that, of all courses that could be pursued,
that is the most objectionable. In giving the present
grant, we profess to make provision for the
education of those who ' • l
and religious consolation to
many millions of people.—

feeling, and the censiderati.,n of public policy, I think I
can assign reasons which might dissuade you from
taking that course, and repudiating all connexion with
that College. When did your connexion with it com-
mence ? Under whose authority, and how long
has it been in existence ? Why, Sir, fifty yeere
ago you undertook to maintain a Parliamentary vote for
Moyncoili. You commenced your connexion with it in
1795. The reigning sovereign was George the Third ;
the Minister of Eneland was Mr. Pitt ; and the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department was the Duke
of Portland, who was afterwards the Chancellor of the
University of Oxford. In the year 1795 the Lord-
Lieutenant ef Ireland, Lord Fitzwilliam, called the at-
te::tion of the Irish Parliament to the state of education
there. That was in the critical period of 1795.—(Hear,
hear.) [The Right Hon Barenet read the speech of
the Lord Lieutenant to the Irish House of Commons at
the commencement of the session of 1795, and also a
quotation from a speech of Mr. Grattan.] In that
year the House of Commons of Ireland was told
that it was intended to stablish Ma) nooth. Lord
Fitzwilliem was succeeded by the Marquis Camden,
who laid the first stone of the College of Maynooth.
At the close of the session of 1795 the Lord-Lieutenant
who presided at the inauguration, who laid the first stone
of the building, congratulated the Parliament in having
laid the foundation of the establishment of a Roman
Catholic college. In the course of that year the Irish
Parliament passed its first Act---an Act passed by the
Irish Lords and Commons—without difficulty, v; ith-
out one dissentient voice. The Prelates of the
Protestant Church were. present—the Parliament
was exclusively Protestant and yet, at that
period, in that year of 1795, at the instance of
the Executive Government, that exclusively Protestant
Parliament without a division—without a dissentient
voice—consented to this supposed violation of principle,
and voted the sum which they then thought r«pisite
for maintaining the institution, and stamped upon it a
Parliamentary sanction. IR 1800, before the union,
another Act passed. After the union the Imperial Par-
liament, finding those grants in existence, passed, as I
before observed, an Act in 1808, not interfermer with the
system which they adopted and sanctioned, mid for ex-
tending which they gave further facilities. For fifty
years, up to this very year 1845, has this vote continued
for supporting the College of Maynooth. I know there
is a prevailing impression that the Imperial Parliament
did nothing more than adiipt the Acts of the Irish Par-
liament—that they found the vote, and continued it
without alteration, feeling themselves bound by the
contract into which it is supposed the Irish Parliament
entered. That is an impression which has prevailed. I
am about to prove that that is completely erroneous,
and to show that you have, at two distinct periods,
granted an additional sum for the support of Maynooth
—that you vecete rot merely centent with adopting the
vote of the Irieh Parliernent, het that, on two specific
eccasione, you increased the vote. In 1807 the vote was
increased to 13,000/., the 5,0001. increase being applied
for additional buildings. In ISOS Mr. Percival lent his di-
rect sanction to the permanent increase of the vote. In that
year Mr. Foster, the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer,
moved a resolution for granting to Maynooth College a
grant of 13,0001., being 5,000/. over the grant of former
years, far the purpose of enabling that institution to
erect buildings capable of accommodating 50 additional
students. In former years the number of students being
200, a grant of 1,000/. was made, but as there was a
further sum voted for the maintainenee of 50 additional
students, Mr. Foster moved that a sum not exceeding
9,250/., Irish currency, should be granted to his Majesty
to defray the expenses. Mr. Percival said he was per-
fectly right after the grant was established, and after
the union was carried, that the grant of
the Irish Parliament should net be diminished.
The grant was extended one-fourth more for the pur-
poses of education. It appeared that 111 others were
educated for the Catholic priesthood in different parts of
Ireland. On the whole, he thought a supply of 360 stu-
dents would be sufficient to meet the demand. In 1808,
Mr. Percival being Minister, the Government consented
to extend the vote beyond that made by the Irish Cabi-
net, for the express purpose of providing education for
50 additional students.—(llear, hear.) And further,
Mr. Percival implied that if he thought a greater num-
ber of students than 361 were requisite for the service of
the Roman Catholic Church, he would not be unwil-
ling to increase the grant.—(Hear, hear.) lint here is
a distinct proof that in 1808 the Imperial Parliament
made an increased provision, in order that 50 more stu-
dents might be educated in Maynooth. Again, in 1813
—I can speak of that myself; for I was then in office—
an addition of 700/. or 900/. a year was made, in order
to be applied to the maintenance of senior students,
called the Dunboyne establishment. I have stated what
have been the circumstances of this connexion in
the first instance, and how the Parliaments both of Eng-
laud and Ireland have, on different occasions, strengthened
that connexion by successive grants and endowments.
And I now ask whether, after this state of things existing
for half a century, it would be prudent or proper, on
an alleged violation of conscientious scruples, to give
notice to the Roman Catholics of Ireland that this con-
uexion,_ so continued uninterruptedly for half a century,
must be abandoned.—(Hear, hear.) When this con-
nexion was formed, the Roman Catholics were labouring
under disabilities, but those disabilities did not then con-
stitute a ground of objection in the eye of the Irish Par, -
liament.—(Hear, hear.) These disabilities have been
done away with—the Roman Catholics now stand on
the same footing with ourselves in respect to equality
of civil privileges—shall we now take the opportunity,
in opposition to the dceds of our ancestors, of saying to
them, " That favour was granted under the reign of
George the Third, in the administration of Mr. Pitt,
but we must now withhold it on account of religious
scruples."—(Rear, hear.) What would he the et -et of
such a declaration on the Roman Catholics? Why, it
Would not be the refusal if the amount of pecuniary aid
which would be deprecated—it is the animus which dic-
tated that refusal. —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," in
which the shrill piercing voice of Mr. Sheil was dis-
tinctly audible.) We never could convince them that
we were actuated by those conscientious scruples which
were not entertained by George 111, by Mr. Pitt, nor
by an exclusively Protestant Legislature of their own
country, and which were nevet felt since that time.—
(Hear.) I should deeply regret that such a refusal
should be made, not merely on account of the Roman
Catholics, but kr the sake of tlle general welfare of Ire-
land. Such a declaration would be in effect a proclama-
tion that we who dissented from the doctrines of
the Roman Catholic Church—that we who held a faith
which we considered more pure, and to which we are
devotedly attached, would not on account of these doc-
trines and on account of that devotion give any assis-
tance to Roman Catholics.—(flear hear.) If we make
that declaration what is the lesson we inculcate?— (Hear,
hear.) Now, take the case of the Protestant pro•
prietors of an extensive district—they had a large
Roman Catholic tenantry—they were probably Dis-
senters and Catholics who tilled the soil—would it be
right in these landed proprietors to refuse to contribute
any assistance towards those Roman Catholic tenantry—
would they be acting in accordance with the will of the
Supreme Judge to refuse all means whereby those
poor people might obtain religious consolation?—(Hear,
hear.) I think they would be acting more in accord-
ance with the principles of the faith which they profess,
if they said to these poor people, " I wish you to have
religious consolation in the hours of need. I wish you
to have religious instruction from those who can afford
it. I will, therefore, contribute towards the maintenance
of the minister who will perform these duties."—(Hear,
hear.) Is there any precept in our religion to forbid
this? Do not great and enlightened bodies act so? I
will take for example some of the great companies of the
City of London, who do everything to improve
the condition of those dependent upon them.
They make great sacrifices to do so. Take
the Drapers' Company—they allot a small sum as
a stipend for the payment of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood, and contribute to the repairs of the Roman Ca-
tholic chapels ; and are I to advise Parliament to take a
course, which would in effect tell the companies—" You
cannot contribute towards Roman Catholic purposes
without a violation of religious principle."—(Hear,
hear.) But what will be our own position? How shall
we act when we come to decide upon the grant to Pres-
byterian ministers ? Shall we continue that vote? Por-
tions of the public money are voted to men whose re-
ligious opinions we utterly repudiate. What position
w ill we stand in with respect to our own colonies?—
(Hear, hear.) If we avow such a principle, in what re-
lation will we stand towards the Roman Catholics at
Malta and Gibraltar—(Hear, hear)—in the Canadas and
in the Mauritius `t
—(Hear, hear.) In many of the West
India Islands it would be impassible to act upon the
principle of disclaimingaltogether such religious support.
How shall we stand with regard to the Roman Catholics
of Ireland ? Shall we repeal the Act which provides
the payment of Roman Catholic chaplains for prisons?
An Act was passed enabling grand juries to appoint
Roman Catholic chaplains to gaols—nay, making it
compulsory upon them to do so when a proper requisi-
tion was made. The grand jury was required to make
provision for the maintenance of those chaplains, and
to prevent the assignment of unequal salaries to
ministers of the different religious persuasions. Will
you repeal the Act far the maintenance of Roman
Catholic chaplains for workhouses? There again you
have imposed an abso!ute obligation to appoint Roman
Catholic chaplains. Will you take away from the
wretched pauper that religious consolation which he
seeks in his last moments before he is ushered into the
presence of his Maker.—(llear, hear.) That faith
against which you protest, and those doctrines which
are not your doctrines, you have yet given a Parlia-
mentary sanction to, by providing salaries for its tem:here.
Can I then, after reviewing our own fh,tion, and that
of the colonies, and that of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land, who have for the last fifty years received this Parlia-
-mentary grant—can I now come to the conclusion that
'we are prepared to discontinue that grant on the ground
o f the violation of religious scruples ? Will the House
continue the present grant or repudiate it altogether?
I know only one other course, and that course we are
prepared to take.—(Loud cheers.) Prepared—yes, I
will say prepared—believing that it will be conducive to
the welfare of the Irish people, and that it will generate a
confiding spirit among them. If we are to take that
course, all will admit that it should be taken in a conci-
liatory spirit. If these institutions are to remain, we
should consider them with a view towards improving
their condition. By improvement I do not mean inter-
ference with the course of education pursued there, which
would be poisoning all the good that our liberality would
effect, but I mean treating them in a really generous
spirit, with the hope that such treatment will create a
corresponding spirit, and that we may reap the
' fruits of it in the improved feeling and condition
of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity. Having
-determined to take that course, we ought to take it
.-effectually, and make a provision which will be really
sufficient to supply the wants of the Roman Catholic
,Church, so that the ministers of that religion may be
swell educated and well disciplined. To increase the
g,-ant by an addition of 3,000/. or 4,000/., would be
worse than nothing.—(Hear, hear.) I exclude that en-
tirei"y from my consideration. I cannot think that the

amount of pecuniary assistance can be said to be of any
very great importance when the principle is admitted.
I w ill now, %dill the permission of the House, prccced
to state the nature of the proposal which I am now, on
the part of the Government, instructed to make.—
(Ili ar, hear.) I have already.' stated that, by the exist-
ing laws, the trustees of Maynooth are expressly em-
powered to purchase and acquire land. That power was
confirmed by the Act of George the Third. They were .
nowhere allowed to hold real pertpert. brytlfift
1,0001. a year. That is the enactment, but AO'
was never given to it, because the trustees
were not nominated, they were never able to hold land.
They could not held laud by any other tenure than by
the lives of' the existing trustees, and that land could
not pass to their successors. In order to remedy that,
I propose in the Bill I will lay before the House to
incorporate the trustees, to make them a corporate lord-
ship, under the name of the Trustees of Maynooth Col-
lege, thus giving them a real power and an ability of
holding land to the amount of 3,0004; that is to say, if
the meml:ers of the Roman Catholic faith are desirous
to endow and make a provisien for the endowment of
particular localities. I can conceive no objection to
such a voluntary contribution; and I therefore propose
to admit a body so incorporated to hold real property to
the extent of 3,000/. I will next address myself to the
position of the chief officers of Maynoo:h. I propose to
make a liberal provision—liberal as compared with the
present stipends of the president and professors. At
present the enicend !odd by the professors does not ex-
ceed 122! a year. Instead of defining what shall be the
amount of stipend to such professors, to allocate to the
trustees of Maynooth certain sums, which shall be
placed at the discretion of the trustees, from which
such salaries shall be drat n 6,000/. or 7,000 L
a year ; the salaries for professors to vary
from 2501. to 300/. In order to increase the number cf
professors it would be necessary to make an additional
provision. I propose, therefore, that a sum not exceed-
ing 6,000/. a year should be given to the trustees, in
order to make a provision for the president, professors, .
librarian, and principal officers of the College. I now
come to the provision to be made for students, but I
must first remind the House of the ecnstitution of the
College. The College is divided into two departments—
one of these hes three senior classes, which are called
divinity students, and from these selections are made.
for the priesthood. In the subordinate departments of
the College there are four junior classes; in addition to
these elseses there are twenty senior students, or Dun-
boyne students, so celled because Lord Dunboyne left a
grant of 5004 a year expressly for that provision. I
have else stated that twenty senior students were selected ,
by the president, who were allowed to remain three
years after they have finished the collegiate course, in
the same way as bachelors are at our universities. There
are in all fbnr hundred and thirty students in the
College divided into these three classes: the Dunboyne,
th., senior, end junior classes. We propose to alot, to
each of the Dunboyne students the sum of 40/. per annum.
We propose to make, in the whole, a provision for 500
students-250 in the four junior classes, and 250 in the
three senior classes, these being divinity students. We
propose that, for the maintenance of each student, in
order to cover the expense of collegiate education, that
the sum of 281. a year should be allowed to the trustees
—that is, 28/. a year for each—and, in addition to that .
sum, amounting to 14,560/., we propose for the two
hundred and fifty divinity students in the sures
rior classes a separate allowance of 20L a year,
making a further sum of 5,000/. The effect of this ar-
rangement, when sanctioned by the House, will be a
very considerable increase. For president, professors,
and librarians, we propose a sum not exceeding 6,0001•
a year For the twenty Dunboyne students 401. a year ;
making a total yearly provision of 26,316/. Observe
here we admit of an increase in the number of students
in the College from 440 to 500. We propose that
such addition to the building itself shall take pla!e ag
will enable a decent apartment to be assigned to each
student ; and that the College shall be made in appear'
mice, and, in fact, worthy of such an institution
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) We further intend that a
decent provision shall be made for the president, and
that the repairs of the College shall be annually attended
to. For the better accommodation of the president
and the professors we design suitable apartments for
them. The whole grant, then, will be a sum not ex-
ceeding 30,000/.---(Great cheering from the Opposition)
—to be made from the public funds. We do not pros
pose that the provisions made for the five hen;
eked students should be divided among an increase",
number. We wish their education to be a libel)
one, and that the reminiscences of Maynooth should net
be revolting.—(Hear, hear.) We increase the grant,
but we limit the number of students to 500. We pre'
pose, also, that the Board of Works shall undertake tbo
repairs of the College of Maynooth, the amount of such
repairs and improvements to come before the Bells*
in the shape of an annual vote, included in the yearnif
estimates of the Board of Works. With respect to
visitorial powers—we do not propose that any greyt!.
powers shall be conferred on the visitors than these
present possess, but we propose that instead of s O,
nial visitation it shall be an annual one, and that 11...*17
visitors shall be appointed instead of three, and thatlm
Lord-Lieutenant shall have power to direct a visitati9J,
whenever he may think fit. Her Majesty will appoint a+ls,.
visitors in addition to the three Roman Catb9,
visitors which at present exist. These visitors, as I ks—,
already stated. will not be invested with greater powell
but their visit must be a bona fide one : it v.rire
have no reference to doctrine or discipline.
will not spoil this act.—(Hear, hear.) This kg
siness was ascertained by three visitors, and tp°
visitors were the Earl of Fingal], Dr. Crolly, and Dr:
Murray ; and I can assure the House that this mew
sure has not been brought before it without a considers':
tion of the feelings of the Roman Catholic body, °t
without consultation with those who may well be s!er
posed to be acquainted with the feelings of that WV',
and I think I may say that those gentlemen are Pre
pared to recommend it to the members of the Rom)
Catholic Church. I believe, Sir, that this measure
conceived in the spirit in which it was first announco4
and that it will meet with the general consent of 01,
Roman Catholic hierarchy. I believe, Sir, that the
are prepared to receive it with a feeling of satisfaetil
and that they are grateful for it. That it will meet rtie
the approbation of the most influential and respects'.
of that powerful body, and that it will be accepted as
liberal and efficient remedy for the evils under which th ,
5.e.4.
have suffered. I do not use this as an argument'',
the adoption of this measure by the House, but I do arguments,
lieve that it is a strong inducement for the House ti
take it into its most favourable consideration. I anVii
insensible of the difficulty of the position under wf:g
I and those who act with me labour, in proposing tilsg ;
increased grant to Maynooth ; but still I comelye t'd
this grant is nothing more than a liberal construction.,
the obligations into which this House and the countli •
have entered with the Roman Catholic body in Irelan.`i,;
and this measure is nothing more or less than a lekt
mate fruit of that obligation. Nor do I conceive the,se
any misconstruction can be put on this grant, otheriro
than to say that this is an act of greater liberality
might have been expected. I do not propose that
grant shall be one for giving a title to intermeddle
the doctrines of the Church to which this grant is msd
I believe that such an attempt would be both end`,
cn?us, unjust, and uncalled-for. We do not give ts'o
thing by this grant, which in principle has not 00
yielded by previous grants. I am of opinion that la
will be amply rewarded by the improved system of Ire
cation among the Roman Catholic ecclesiastics of we
land. And in doing this. Sir, Ido not believe that
10.,
violate any one conscientious principle whatever—(err
hear)—for I hold stedfast and unwavering every Poe
ciple of the Church to which I belong ; but Ono
same time, I do believe that we violate ns".
l'
of the obligations of honour and good sego
.4)o
in promoting improvement in the character of those "be
are entrusted with the education of those who are t° A'
spiritual guides and instructors of millions of our i'letioa
countrymen.—(lmmense cheering from the OppoSt
I benches).
On the motion that the Bill be brought in,
t,get
Sir R. INGLIS said that ho regretted, on maul tio
counts, that no other person stood in the precise p0a1,,,p-
-which he occupied, and the more so, because it Pelll
pened that on this occasion he was more than tou.,bs
unable to address the House ; but, however that 0;0.•
be, he felt thankful that he was able to offer some "„
j1":.1;$
sition, however feeble, to the proposition from his PiTbe
Hon. Friend at the head of the Government. A 1000:
close of his speech, as at its commencement, his Right bad
Friend had stated that the proposition which b° pei•
brought before the House was one which violate' Wogther honour nor good faith. Now, in the considers
bf
of this question they must take it as regulated either
oitlf
law or custom, and he felt assured, however reluci,•o4
he might do it, that it was impossible to resist opP—fel;
the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend, and be 00.
that his Right Hon. Friend must have entertained
siderabte doubt of his ultimate success, by a ClArcesr,
stance which could not have escaped his practise' re
that all the cheers with which this proposition w5„50/
ceived came from the Opposition side of the 111),"
tb
(Cheering from the Opposition side of the House) ibst
he believed that his Right Hon. Friend would fine rapt
the general feeling of the country was against anYtroese•
such as he had made to the consideration of the 1,00
His Right lion. Friend had stated that this pronto; the
would not take the country by surprise, for that: e toed
close of last session he had intimated that he 111!e in
to introduce some provision for acadi-mical educaneither
Ireland, but he (Sir R. Inglis) must state, that veoble
in his declaration of last session, nor in that realarwbea
speech which he had made five years age at 1,6
not a Minister of' the Croen, he had professed old the
was not prepared to vote for the discontinuance t 00.0'
grant to the College of Maynooth. 114'1,130
Friend had stated that lie had three courses beforor the
—the discontinuance of the grant, its increasetn the
r
endowment of the College. At that time,
.017 IV'
speech est. the Hon. Member for Kent, his Righni,eon'
Friend had refused to give his pledge for the lee 0111"
tinuance of the grant. Had it been merclY luvo saw
tinuance of the grant, he (Sir H. Inglis) would base ark°
little in opposition to the motion ; but he, and th°t
acted with him, could look on it only us a grain
downient to the Catholic Church in Ireland, and e
resell
uncalled for by any circumstances of the Pnrant'
time. This had been in fact an annual e'prsc'
and when reference was made to the goat:
tice of fifty years as sanctioning this, 0501
and as authorising the present measure, he must that I
in opposition to the position of his Hon.. Friend" on 0
d 5
eves'
was merely a provision from year to year, a° 0t
never precluded the reconsideration of:the grilr "Vast;;
within the session in which it was made. Ne.roe tlOO
expected by the Roman Catholic body, at the rim arse
it should be anything more. When as a matter
nt
the Irish House of Commons had passed the gill:0$
the support of the College, in 1799, the House
ales
virtual) negatived it by a motion which was los tin!,
to voting the consideration of any question for ,01,
six months, by voting its application at an 11011:oiete".
date. And what was the impression ent, vibe;
of any right to support from GovernMeT,„hed
019 College of Maynooth was first estaew

It was perfectly understood that the College was to be
eqablished and supported by the voluntary contribu-
tions of the Roman Catholic body, and on the present
3d of April there was no compact, statute or implied, or
existing even in feeling, that sutport should he de-
rived from Government. On the ')9th April, leOS, a
statement had been made by Sir Arthur Wellesley, at
that time Secretary of the Irieh Government, that the
College of Maynooth was not to be supported from the
thtt'lit4 if be made that
- Abe. ow,a ea were to this
esent was necessary, in order that the peace of' society
might be better secured, he (Sir R. Inglis) would ask,
*hat was the state of society in 1794 and 1793, and the
state of the Church of Rome, as compared with the pre.
sent time ? The experience of any man acquainted
with public affairs would reply to the ques-
tion, that it was expected that the Roman
Catholic Church was to be supported at its own expense.
This was evident from the memorial of the Roman
Catholic Archbishop, presented to Parliament on the
4th of April, 1794, in which he had expressly declared
that if permission was granted to erect the College of
Ida,ynooth, the members of the Roman Catholic C h irch
were prepared to support it from their own funds. His
Right Hpp
on. Friend at the head of the Government had
referred to the opinion expressed by an illustrious states-
Man in the course of his speech, to whom he could
never refer without bearing his (Sir Robert
Inglis's) testimony, and who had exhibited a consis-
tency of conduct and principle well worthy of the great
interests he was called upon to direct, but it should he
recollected that that great statesman bad not originated
this grant, for it remained during his time just as it had
been previously conferred. It mattered not whether it
was 8,0001., or any other sum ; he could say for himself,
and he believed he might assert for those friends who
acted with him, that it was perfectly immaterial whether
the sum voted was 8,0001, or double that amount, or half
that amount; what they objected to was, any endowment
at all for the Church of Rowe. lie believed that they
would, none of them, be accused of want of toleration for
refusing to be parties to this grant, and he did not despair
in the hope that there would be found a majority in
that house who would represent the majority of the
People of England—(llcar)—and if his Right
Hon Friend was disposed to neglect the opinion of that
majority, he would beg to remind him, from the in-
fluence of public opinion on the education clause which
her Majesty's Government had propounded some font-
or fire years ago, on the discussion of that measure,
and to brg them to calculate what'svould be the effect
of the expression of that same public opinion on the
present measure, for he hail sufficient confidence in his
countrymen to beli, ye, that if even a majority of this
House were to confirm the grant which had been pro-
posed by his Right Hon. Friend, that it. would be:vir-
tually nullified by the opposition which it would en-
counter in the feelings and convictions of the country.
If the opinion of Jr. 2 Grattan ware to be referred to, it
was plain that that opinion was in opposition to the
principles of this grant to Maynooth, for he believed
that it would promote `anything but order and peace. In
the discussion five years ago the lion. Member for Dun-
ga.rvon (Mr. Sheil), in speaking oa this question, had
expressed his opinion as being hostile to this grant; and
Lord Morpeth, then Secretary for Ireland, who on that

occasion came down to the House with the Irish sta-
tutes in his hand, had created a sensation from which the
House did not recover so soon as lie thought it ought
to have done; but he was surprised that the inti-
mations of that Noble Lord had not been acted upon.
What was the language of the Act to which the Hon.
and Learned Member had made reference ? He (>ir R.
Inglis) believed that it would not bear the construction
put upon it by the Hon. and Learned Member. It was
the foundation on which his Right Hon. Friend had en-
deavoured to build the argument lie had advanced that
evenine-. How r In the Act of the 35th George 111. ? It
ran thus :—" Whereas by law, as now enforced, it is
not lawful to endow any college or seminary for the edu-
eution of Roman Catholic persons, be it therefore
enacted," and so forth. Then it went on—" The trustees
named in the Act and their successors will have power
and authority"—Did the House think it was to demand
an annual grant from a Protestant country ?—" to re-
ceive subscriptions and donations, to enable them to
establish and endow an academy." Did this em-
power them to ask support for their College
at the expense of the nation ?—(Hear.) When
the Roman Catholics of Ireland asked in the year 1794
or 1795 for only one seminary to educate their priest-
hood, they asked as much as the Parliament of that year
would grant, and more than the Irish Parliament of a
I'M years before would have even entertained. So far
Were the Roman Catholics of that day from maintaining
that they were entitled to support from Government,
that they were even contented with the permissicn to
apply subscriptions and donations to the purposes of
education. In the construction of an Act of Parlia-
ment the intentions of the parties making it should be
considered, and he was sure that the promoters of that
Act never intended to lay down the principle
that the support of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood should be binding on the country.—(Hear.)
Re contended that the pledge given at the Act of Union
that B,OOOL should be given to this College for twenty
years had been fully redeemed. He was opposed to
her concessions on this subject, for the experience of
the last twenty years proved that when concessions were
*lade by Parliament its power was just so much
weakened.—(Hear, hear.) In the same degree that they
endowed the Roman Catholics they withdrew their
support from the Protestant institutions of the country.
It was alleged that the proposition of the Government
would have the effect of conciliating Mr. O'Connell and
his party. But how could that be ? In 1831 Mr. O'Con-
nell said that the grant ought to be 70,000/., but that he
did not care whether it was abandoned altogether, as the
`Catholic clergy would still be educated without Govern-
ment aid,—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that he had not
failed altogether in proving that the proposed measure,
it could be defended at all, was not to be defended on
,the ground of any compact, either by Act of
Parliament or by unbroken usage. If it could
be defended at all, it was only on the ground of expedi-
ency—a word for which he had no particular favour—
and which was justified only when considered with a
view to correct principle.—(Hear, hear.) But he thought
that, even on the ground of expediency, the Ministers
would signally fail. He thought that the Catholics
were as well able to maintain the education of their
priests as the Dissenters of this country ; and he could
not, recognise any claim of theirs to pre-eminence in this
matter. Surely the education by the State of a body of
men whose conscientious desire it must be to root out
the Protestant, or State Church (as he would call it), as
a nuisance in the sight of men, and a serious evil in the
sight of God, was as great folly on the part of the State
as that of the Dutch who sold gunpowder to their own
besiegers. He did not suppose that the Ministers were
actuated in bringing forward this measure by any other
motive than a wish to do what was right between all
parties.—(Hear, hear.) But he hoped his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government would believe
that he spoke in the most inoffensive spirit
when he said that it was to be regretted
that the Right Hon. Baronet had not earlier made known
to the House and the country what his views were upon
this question.(Hear, hear.) He regretted that the
Right Hon. Baronet did not state those views in 1840.
(Cheers.) For his own part, he (Sir R. Inglis) was not
ashamed to say that he took his stand on Protestant
Christianitv—(Hear, hear)—that had been the Consti
tution of this country for three hundred years—and
although the vessel had, of late, been much tossed and
shattered, yet there was still a Protestant feeling at the
mast head, and as long as one plank remained, he, for
one, would nail to the mast that flag of Protestant Chris-
tianity which, in better times, had waved over the whole
empire.—(Cheers.) Ho thanked the House for the
patience with which he had been heard, and concluded
by moving a negative on the question, in the terms of
the notice which he had placed in the hands of the
Chairman.—/The Right Hon. Baronet was much
cheered at the conclusion of his speech, and immedi-
ately after his resuming his seat, Members in great
numbers left the House.)
Capt B. OSBORNE, who was for some minutes in-
audible from the noise of Members leaving the House,
said, that for three hundred years the Government of
this country had been endeavouring to root out the
Catholic religion from Ireland, but without success.
That religion had survived and flourished when every-
thing around it had been destroyed. He thought the
present Government was right in changing the policy ;
and as they could not make seven millions of people
Protestants, they should try to make them good Ca-
tholica.—(llear.) There was one fact which was not
sufficiently known in this country—that every pulpit in
Maynooth was required to be provided with a Bible ;
and, from the paltry allowance, the College had given
away last year 300 Bibles.—( Hear, hear.) The bishops
had also expunged, from the notes to the Catholic ver-
pion, every passage which was considered offensive to
their Protestant fellow-countrymen,—(Hear, hear.) He
was not at all surprised that the opposition to this mea-
sure arose from those who were the most ready to rail
at the Roman Catholic priesthood for their want of edu-
cation.--(Hear, hear.) A short time ago an Irish Lord,
a Peer of Parliament, published a letter in the Evening
Mail, relating to the controversy which he had
respecting the shutting up of a path to a chapel.
In that letter the Noble Lerd, the Marquis of West-
meath, was witty upon the bad spelling of the parish
priest, and designated the Roman Catholic priesthood
as " emasculated vermin " and " amphibious creatures,"
who put their " unwashed feet upon the necks of the
poor, unhappy, and much to be commiserated people."
fle was surprised he had heard nothing of the low
Origin of these priests, but he could tell the House that
Roman Catholics prided themselves upon raising their
clergy from the lowest classes. In the middle ages the
higher classes monopolised all the higher stations and
offices of state, and it was through the instrumentality of
the R,omish Church alone that democratic principles
could find any outlet, and had it not been for this
system Luther himself would have remained a farmer-
peasant. He hoped, therefore, he should hear no
more of the low origin of the priesthood.
Prussia boasted of a Protestant population, and the
Ring himself was a Protestant. In 1815 the Rhenish
jStates, whose inhabitants were Roman Catholics, were
oined to Prussia ; and what was the first step Prussia
.took after this union ? Why, to found a Roman Ca-
tholic College, and to place themselves in communication
with the Pope ? In 1821 the Pope issued his bull, by
which he empowered the Prussian Crown to confer with
the clergy in the election of Roman Catholic bishops ;
and now a correspondence between the clergy
and the Pope annually took place, under the
' superintendence of the Crown. And, if this system
answered in Prussia, why, he would ask, should it not
succeed here? It appeared to him that there were two
classes of opponents to this measure. Some Hon.
Members objected to making any provision whatever,
while others, like the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
fur Oxford, who thought they had an exclusive monopoly
of the truth, and therefore they objected to what they
called the endowment of error. 'With reference to the
first class, he differed with them; but he had some diffi-
culty in meeting the objection of the Right Hon. Baronet
the Alember for Oxford. The Bight Hen, Baronet objected

to the endowment of what he called religious error ; but
he wonl,l ask the Right Hon. Baronet who was to be the
judge of what was religious truth? Wee that House to
go into Committee, to discover what was and what was
not religions truth ?—(Lsughter.) But the Treasury
had no religious T,rstiesion at all, and the question,
after all, was not whether there should be a Roman
Catholic priesthood in Ireland, but whether they should
be bad or good—literate or illiterate—clergymen or de-
magogues. But where was the sam to support these
clergymen to come from ? He could not conceal from
himself that the resolution of the Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite would ultimately lead to the endowment of the
Roman Catholic Church ; and he was not prepared to
take so large a sum from taxes, which were principally
upon the'English people. But were there no other funds
from which the money could be taken? He would put
it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Ec-
clesiastical Commissioners, wh3 were acting under the
Church Temporalities Act, had not had a great deal more
money in their hand than they well knew what to
do with ? He very much regretted the Hon. Member for
Sheffield had not, on that occasion, brought forward his
motion for abolishing the Established Church in Ire-
land, because he was convinced, until they put an end to
that Establishment, the question relating to Irish griev-
ances would not be set at rest. When he first entered
the present Parliament, he heard the Hon. Member for
East Kent express his delight at the Right Hon. Baronet
taking office, because the Right Hon. Baronet was op-
posed to the maintenance of Romanism in Ireland. The
Hon. Gentleman's opinion must be somewhat altered
now. He was afraid they would have to call in some of
the Custom-house authorities, to discriminate between
the views of the Right Hon. Baronet, and those of the
Noble Lord who sat on the Opposition side of the House.
Ile fully sympathised with the Right Hon. Baronet, and
hoped he would not be deterred from his present princi-
ples by a" No Popery" cry. The time was gone by, when
the House was to be deterred from doing its duty by a
bigoted agitation.--(Cheers.)
Mr. GREGORY confessed that he had heard some
singular arguments in favour of this measure. In • the
first place the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought it
forward had told them that it would tend to encourage
Protestantism in Ireland. Why, if this were so, they
had only to make an additional grant to the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland to encourage Remanism.
While the Right Hon. Gentleman was speaking, he
stated that it was in accordance with the wishes of the
!Zeman Catholic prelates that he introduced this mea-
sure. lie (Mr. Gregory) however heard it perpetually
stated that this measure was decidedly against the
wishes of the Roman Catholic clergy, but that they were
forced to it by the laity. He was not of opinion that the
clergy had lost their influence so far over the laity. For
a long time he could not understand how- this measure
was to be brought forwerd. When the subject was on a
former occasion introlueed by his Friend the Noble
2lember for North Lancashire, it was objected to his
measure by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that
he was unwilling to adopt any course that would connect
the State with any Dissenting Establishment. It was
said that this was it qu,,stion whether the Roman Catho •
lie clergy should be educated or not. He never would
be an advocate for ignorance, but he would object to the
course of education pursued at the College of Maynooth.
He would ask, hail there emanated from that institution
within the last twenty years one single constellation in
the literary world? He would contend against the
course of education proceed«l with there, and also
would vote against the grant. Had the Right II?n.
Baronet come to the House and said, Do away with
the College of Maynooth, and institute colleges through-
out Ireland, and let there be no exclusive religious edu-
cation, then he (Mr. Gregory) would support those
colleges. Maynooth had brought up the priest-
hood in a manner that had rendered them
a repulsive body. It did not raise them to a
position that would do justice to their ardour and
zeal. It made them unwilling to enter into society. He
hoped he had not said anything that was in any way
calculated to offend the feelings of those who were op-
posed in religious opinion to himself, if he had, he hoped
that they would not attribute it to intention on his part. It
an exclusive religious education was adopted, and if this
establishment was disconnected with the State, they
would find tlie Roman Catholic priests loyal and or-
derly, not the leaders in agitation, but exercising that
influence, which should be used not to sever, but to rivet
those chains with which nature had bound down their
consciences.

Lord F. EGERTON said that he was deeply sensible
of the fact, that his vote this night would be at variance
with the views and opinions of those who supported him
—of those, the representing of whom he always
considered the greatest honour he could obtain.
It was, therefore, with regret that he could, with
reference to any subject, express a difference of
opinion from his supporters. He on that account felt
it incumbent upon him not to keep silent altogether,
though he was not anxious to interfere with the House
on a subject that was nearly exhausted. He would not
enter into the state of the establishment of Maynooth,
but it was clear, that whatever contracts were made
consequent on the arrangements of 17.95, it was evident,
he would say, that no such contracts would bind them
at the present day. He was of opinion, that the other
course which was suggested by his Right Hon. Friend
who had just sat down—that cf abolishing the grant
altogether—would be, under the circumstances, an un-
reasonable one ; he thought that such a measure would
be dangerous to the State ; it would be considered as
an insult and an injury—it would be perilous to the
Established Church, and an obstacle and a bar to any
increase of Protestantism in Ireland. It had been ex-
plained, that the expenze at the College of Maynooth
was given per head, and it apps ared to be three
pounds less than was allowed to a private soldier.—
(Hear, hear.) A private soldier got from the State 251.
and a student at Maynooth was allowed 231., which was
2/. less. He would take the occasion to say, and he was
sure that the House a ould agree with him in stating that
the Hon. Member who had just sat down had not used
any language which could be hurtful to anybody, and
that what he had said reflected great credit on him. He
(Lord F. Egerton) had, on a former occasion, which
was referred to by his Hon. Friend, the honour of
moving for a larger grant to Maynooth, and he wished
to say that, with reference to his constituents, he had
nothing to reproach himself with, as regarded consis-
teney. He would also say that, with reference to his
religious feeling, which could hinder him from sup-
porting the course now suggested, he did not
think that discussions on religious faith were
fit for the atmosphere of that House. He
hoped, however, that his religion would be only known
by his practices. From what knowledge he had of Ire-
land, and the views which he entertained towards that
country, he. aid not see anything that could deter him
from exercising that liberality which was to-night pro-
posed. He should have some difficulty in coming to the
conclusion of granting 30,0001. to the Maynooth College,
if his religious feelings were to be alone considered, but
he did not see how they could interfere. He recollected
that on his introduction of a measure of a like nature
some time ago, it was received with great consideration
by the House, and was not met by any uncontrollable
principles; even in the state of opinion in that day it
was not considered an inexpedient measure. He con-
fessed that he thought the measure a reasonable one,
and it would not be met by any objection from him. He
could not alter his opinion as to the expediency of the
measure which he on a former occasion proposed.

Mr. WARD said that he merely rose to state, in as
few words as possible, the reasons why he should press
the vote which he should make to-night. He should,
also, express the heartfelt gratification with which he
had heard the principles laid down by the Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government. It should be pleasing
to any man to see those principles stated to the House in
such an irresistible manner. Whatever the Hon. Member
for Oxford might say, though he stood there as the repre-
sentative of a Protestant constituency, he could not believe
it could be the real and unaffected feeling of this country,
when the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet came to be
calmly and deliberately discussed. The Noble Member
for Dublin, considering the party which he represented,
made a speech which did credit to his taste, but he said
he felt deep disappointment at the result of the experi-
ment tried in 1795. What better ground could he seek
for that disappointment than the fact that he had
refused to educate the Roman Catholic clergy in
a proper manner ? Ile assigned salaries to the students
of the College of Maynooth, which he would not
assign to his butler or his cook. When such was the
state of things, what else could result than disappoint-
mutt? If they treated them as good subjects, and as
fellow Christians, they would find different results. The
Hon. Gentleman asked also why they should make a
grant to the Catholic clergy, when they did not
allow such a thing to any other dissenting sect.
Why should they not give it to them when they confis-
cated their property for their own purposes ?—(Hear.)
The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) then proceeded to
observe that he never saw a nobler determination than
that which was displayed by the Right Hon. Baronet at
the bead of her Majesty's Government, to make
amends for his former conduct in refusing to
increase the grant to that institution—(Hear, hear)—
and he could not see what inconsistency there was in
it. The principles laid down for the government of
those who made this grant at the time of the union were
the same as they were now; and when Mr. Pitt and Lord
Howick, and many other lion. Members, had agreed at
one time upon this subject, they were overruled by the
act of a small but compact party in their thirst for that
power which was the p-incipal element by which they
were banded together in that House.---( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet has made a liberal proposition in
his proposed increase of this grant, and he (Mr. Ward)
would not oppose it; but it would be his duty, in order
to follow a consistent course, to contend that this sum
should not be paid out of the general taxation of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he could not say
that this measure had h's cordial support, for he thought
it was a mistake to supply the grant from the fund from
which it was proposed to take it. He did think that the
Government ought to pause before they imposed a tax
upon the Dissenters of this country or of Scotland for
the support of a faith to which they did not belong, and
which they did not believe in ; and this part of the sub-
ject he would take care to introduce to the notice of the
House again at the proper time when the Bill should be
introduced. But in the mean time he would give the
principle and the proposition his most cordial support,
for he believed it would have the effect of creating much
good feeling amongst the Catholics of Ireland.
Mr. LAW said he would have no hesitation in stating
that it was his intention to oppose this proposition ; but
he would like to state his reasons fur doing so. And at
the same time that he did express his objection
to such a measure, he should also express the obli-
gation he felt under to the Right Honourable Ba-
ronet for the extreme candour of the course he had
pursued in giving a full and timely announcement of his
intention to propose this measure ; and whatever objec-
tion he (Mr. Law) might have to the principle of the
measure, neither he nor any one else opposed to the
measure could say they had been taken by surprise.
There was also another Act of the Government, between
the last and the present 6ession, which afforded a clear

indication of the intention of the Government not only in
respect to this, but to other measures of a like nature,
but of more extended and of greater importance. He
alluded to the Commission in reference to the Roman
Catholic Bequest Bill, in which he found the names of
the Roman Catholic prelates, not only placed in juxta-
position with eminent divines of the Protestant Church,
but a precedence allowed to the former over
the latter, which gave to them, as it were,
by anticipatioo, a position superior in rank and degree
to Peers of the realm.—',Hear, hear.) But he did not
complain of this ; on the contrary, he did think that the
Right Hon. Baronet was entitled to claim credit for the
candour and honesty of the course he had stated his
intention to pursue in reference to the Roman Catholic
tCoh ut
brcoh,
EasTal
blbisyb
owd'hicchburac
be e rwt aai
sn acme
rotuani
nt otf do efrool
lgoa,,t. i. o_n
(Hear, hear.) He felt it would he out of place for him
to quarrel with any increased grant proposed to be given
for the education of Roman Catholic priests in future ;
but he could not but regard this proposition, whatever the
intentions of the Government might be, as a precursor
of other measures for the ultimate endowment of
the Roman Catholic Church, and to place it in
a coordinateordinate position
hear.) it w
ionwith the Established
becauseilisecl Clnir ch
in Ireland
he
could discover no resting-place for this proposed exten-
sion and liberality between a mere act of that nature, and
such a result as he had stated be feared would follow,
that he had, after much anxiety, been compelled, with
great regret, to state he had come to the determination,
part
butof htios bt
boon ns
idneone dr
iuttyy ,annodt
coonnl)s,i
st
toe
nt hcye, Establishedown
Ca sh
au
reh,
opinions,aut. nea
—( to offer
Fora ffer his decided
considerabledecidedopposi timetioit bois
this propeteed
,grant.—(Hear) judgment
was in the balance, while he saw that the Right Hon.
Baronet's proposed liberality to Maynooth was mixed up
with a large scheme for a comprehensive system of aca-
demical education in Ireland ; but all doubt
and uncertainty was removed from his mind
when ha heard the announcement that the
increased grant to Maynooth was to be a separate and
distinct proposition. He (Mr. Lau-) hoped it would not
be supposed that he meant to impute any but the purest
and most exalted motives to the Government in adopting
this course ; neither did he feel that, though he differed
from the Government upon this question, he should feel
called upon to withdraw his general confidence from that
Government which, for the last ten years, he had reposed
in them— (Hear, hear)—and, in return, he claimed only
the same charitable construction for his motives that he
conceded to ethers ; and that, therefore, the sincerity of
his views ought not to he questioned when he said he felt
confidence in this, the best Government that this
country ever possessed since the passing of the Reform
Act.—(Ministerial cheers.) He did very much regret
that the Right Honourable Baronet had IV deemed
it expedient to develbp his scheinefor acadeeiical edu-
cation in Ireland. If he had done so, and,. Made it a
unieersal increase of generel erlecation for all creed;
and classes of the community, instead of making May-
nooth College an exclusive seminary for the education
of Roman Catholic priests, he would have deprived this
measure of much of the mischief which he (Mr. Law)
believed would attend it in its present shape. With re-
gard to the question of academical education, he begged
of the Right Hon. Baronet, and the House, to recollect
that there was at present Trinity College, at Dublin, in
which Roman Catholics were frealy admitted, and had
open to them, if they chose to take advantage of it,
all the honours of that University. But in the
College of Maynooth there was now presented one of
the grossest anomalies ever exhibieed in any establish-
ment instituted for such purposes. It was true that
this was a boon which had been granted by the Govern-
ment of this country for the institution of Maynooth
College, and it was established for the purpose of afford-
ing education to Roman Catholic priests, and thereby
prevent them from resorting to foreign countries for
such, and imbibing with it revolutionary principles, or
sentiments inimical to the Government of their own
country.--(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Mi-
nisterial benches.) He would not attempt to follow the
arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford,
but he was willing to admit the truth of the assertion,
that in the year 1795, and at different periods since then,
several Acts were passed for the endowment and main-
tenance of this establishment, but he begged to remind
the House that these Acts invariably limited the period
over which this grant was to extend to twenty years,
which had long since expired, though of course subse-
quent enactments had amplified the time. However, if
he could persuade himself that this was an honourable
engagement which the Government ought to feel bound
to fulfil, he would be the last to oppose it, but he did not
feel that the Government were at all called upon either.
to extend the grant to Maynooth or to continue it, But
there was a great difference between extending their
grant and continuing it at a fixed sum. This, he was
aware, would be met by the assertion that the fixed sum
was. not sufficient. He could not deny the fair spirit in
which this proposition had been made; and he could
not doubt the purity of the intention of those who had
proposed it. If it was the determination of the House
that the grant to Maynooth should continue, then he
thought it was desirable that the annual discussion on
this question should be discontinued. Feeling satisfied,
however, that this permanent grant would involve the
destruction of the fundamental article of the Union, and
at no distant period that it would destroy that portion
of the united Irish and English Church in Ireland, he
should feel it his duty, as they were not to be permitted
to make the annual grant without being told that they
conceded the principle of a permanent obligation,
he for one should oppose the measure, the effect of
which was—first to increase the grant, to render it per-
petual and national by Act of Parliament, and through
that grant and through that admission of principle, ulti-
mately to destroy the united English and Irish
Church.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BELLEW thought that the majority of the ob-
servations of the Hon. Gentleman whip had just sat down
were quite irrelevant to the subject; under disCussion.
They had heard from the Hon. Member for Oxford, who.
might be considered the Coryphmus of the :party most
opposed to this grant, and from the Hon. Member for
Kent, much about contributing to a system
of idolatry by giving the grant to Maynooth.
He did not think that many would be found to carry out
to their full extent the principles of those who opposed
the present measure, and neither the force of their argu-
ments nor the charity of their sentiments made up for
their numbers. What did he see lately in a Dublin
paper ? He would read an extract to the House—" The
policy of Sir Robert Peel is to declare war against Jesus
Christ. That the devil entered into his policy was as
manifest as if the inspired historians recorded the fact."
—(Laughter.) There was a petition presented that night
from Trinity College, which he thought might be better
employed. After stating in that petition that they heard
with regret of the measures about to be adopted by the
Government, they said that it was unwise to endow the
Catholic religion, which was opposed to revealed truth.
Let them act on that principle, and persecution would
be the result.—(Hear, hear.) Toleration would be but
a matter of degree. The Inquisition, the Dragonades of
Louis XIV., and the penal statutes of William and
Anne would be justified.—(Hear, hear.) Why, lately,
when the Dissenters' Chapel Bill was before Parliament,
a prelate of the Protestant Church opposed it, because
Unitarianism was opposed to the land. And was there
so much uniformity in that House to justify any of them
in saying what was and what was not right in religious
matters ? There were members of the Established
Church who were divided between Calvinism and Catho-
licity. There were members of the Calvinistic Church,
who were divided between Calvinism and Armenianism.
. There was the Church of Scotland, divided not only in
discipline but in doctrine, he believed. And why should
it not be so? It .was the great boast of the Protestant
churches that the Bible, and the Bible alone, was their reli•
glen. But it was hard that the gentlemen who opposed this
measure, who claimed the principle of a free interpreta-
tion, should also claim the advantage of authority by
establishing what was right and wrong, and what doc-
trines were alone worthy of consideration of the State.
' The time had gone by when such a principle could be
acted upon. They got Canada in 1774, and there the
Catholic religion was endowed. When by their arms
they had extended their colonies, Spanish Trinidad and
Dutch Demerara were equally welcome, and the mainte-
nance of the Catholic religion was extended to the colo-
nies. There was not one among the forty-one colonies
which they possessed, in which the Catholic religion
was not supported by this country. In Newfoundland
the Catholics shared in the endowment of the State, in
a very small and inadequate degree, indeed, but still it
was endowed. Then, at home, hey supported the
chaplain of the Irish military regiments, the chaplains
of the gaols were supported and those who officiated in
workhouses, and that was a stronger case, because the
payment was in proportion to the work done, and the
Catholic chaplains having, of course, more to do, were
paid more than the Protestant chaplains. If those
things were done when bigotry was strong and robust,
how absurd to object to it at the present time. They had
about 200 or 300 clergy men connected with their mili-
tary regiments in Ireland, and in their colonies, and in
their workhouses, who had received money for the dis-
charge of their duties. Why, then, should they object to
the payment of 30,0001. for their education in Maynooth?
The original endowment of that College was the re-
sult of, a cold policy. At the time the College was
endowed. there was a great dread of what were
called French principles, and being afraid that if those
who were intended for the Roman Catholic Church
would be inoculated with those principles if they were
educated abroad, the College of Maynooth was en•
dowed, but in the most miserable spirit, as the wretched
grant which was
,given proved.—(Hear, hear.) The
number of persons at present maintained at May-
.nootti was 250, and there were about 200 educated else-
where in Ireland and abroad. Now, it was clear that
in a question like the present the State should be every-
thing or nothing. There must be a great national ob-
ject in view, or this subject would not be considered at
all. He would not enter into theological details, because
he considered that House was a most improper place to
enter into a discussion of theology; but he would refer
the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, and the Hun.
Member for the University of Oxford, and all
. others who thought that something exceedingly bad was
taught at Mayno.oth, to the evidence given before the
Commission of 1&25 by the Professor of Moral and Dog-
matic:ullfd
worldl'fit: ;ahu sodt
that r Gentlemen
ew as
nothing read
taughthis
evidence,T h
taught a ught
dogmas throughout
.lay
etohleoygywo.
Maynooth
Catholicswhich
awthole
were the dogm as of the Sorbonne,and nootitihe
were the same
which were taught to the 120,000,000 of human beings
who composed! the Catholic world. There seemed to be
a very erroor.sous impression. also in favour of the Catho-
lic priests of Ireland in a time gone by. He would read
to the F.ouse the opinion of that
sagacious man,
Edmund Burke, upon that point. That great man
said ti"*.at those persons who were intended fur the Roman
Cat:nolic priesthood, after scraping up such scanty
'.education in Ireland as the penal -laws permitted them
to obtain, they went to the continent, and, after acquiring
a little theology, they came back, without any solid
knowledgea, and ill-disposed towards this country. The
same erninent person, in reference to an exclusive
teanhtoati itt
htoline.

establishment for the clergy, to which objections had
been urged that night, said that, in providing education
fur any body of men, they ought seriously to consider
the particular functions they were intended to discharge;
that the authorities of the Roman Catholic religion, and
the celibacy required of its priesthood, rendered it
undesirable that they should be educated in common
with others intended for worldly occupations.
He (Mr. Bellew) did not think it would be right of him
to sit down without expressing his gratitude to the Right
Hen. Baronet for the manner in which he had brought it
forward, and next to the measure itself, for the language
he used.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
brought it forward in a liberal and confiding spirit, and
he believed and trusted it would be received in Ireland
in :a similar spirit. The Right Honourable Baronet
had !not used a single expression to detract
from the grace and favour of the measure.
He hoped that as the Right Hon. Baronet had been the
means of carrying Catholic Emancipation, it was yet re-
served for him to link together the two countries in the
bond of mutual friendship. Ile saw many occurrences
taking place which led him to hope that though unfortu-
nately there, was at present in Ireland considerable agi-
tation, still there was every day a better feeling spring-
ing up there by which the education board, the pro-
mised measure of academical education, and this Bill
showed the Right Hon. Baronet was determined to con-
ciliate the Irish Catholics, and no party feelings would
prevent him from expressing his gratitude to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, and he would further say, and he
wished he only Lave utterance to the feelings of the
Roman Catholic people of Ireland, when he said that
such measures had their right good wishes.—(Cheers.)
Lord SANDON hoped the House would excuse him
for saying a few words in consequence of the position he
was placed in. He looked at this question as one of
compact, and, as he had already stated, it should have
his hearty support.—(Hear, hear.) That compact should
be carried out in that large and liberal sense by which
intercourse between the two countries should be guided.
He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Sir B. Inglis) that
there was nothing in the Act of Union which affected this
grant one way or the other, but in the discussions which
took place on the question in 1808, shortly after the
union, in which the men who carrted the union were en-
gaged, the propriety of this grant was distinctly recog-
nised. Then there was the lapse of time, fifty years of
unbroken continuance of this grant. If they had en
do wed a college in Canada fifty years ago, would they
withdraw that allowance now? They would not. Then
why treat Ireland differently ? Next they
should re-
member the circumstances under which the grant was
made, liegland was then involved in a continental war,
and nearly all the nations of Europe were leagued against
her ; and in order to obtain the hearty co-operation of
the Irish people, they promised to endow Maynooth.—
(Hear, hear.) Ought they now, after fifty years, to
violate that engagement. Suceeedbw Governnectite and
Parliementa—Whig and Tory—had all eg-reed to this
allowance, any why should a less liberal feeling now
prevail ?—(Hear, hear.) With respect to his own feel-
ings, he owned he was intlueneed by other motives than
those of a compact. Ile had always voted in favour of
the claims of the Catholics—he had no conscientious
temples. They should not treat Ireland on &fferent
principles from the colonies. They passed Acts of Par-
liament making provision for Roman Catholic ministers
in the colonies, and for chaplains of gaols and workhouses
at home, and if they were now to act otherwise, they
must pull to pieces the whole machinery of society.
There were nearly 7,000,000 of Catholics in Ireland, and
it was we who put them into the condition of suppliants.
—(Hear, hear.) We seised upon the Church property
in Ireland. and gave the people of that country no equi-
valent.—(Hear, hear.) IVithout any change in their
religion, we took their property from them.—(Hear,
hear.) These facts could not be overlooked. This
was not a simple question of endowment ; it was
one of retribution.—(Renewed cries of " Hear, hear.")
He repeated, the property of the Roman Catholics in
Ireland was extorted from them, and as England had
made compensation to other countries, why not compen-
sate the Irish people? He admitted the claims of our
Roman Catholic fellow-subjects to civil privileges, and
we should endow them with the means of educating their
clergy. Taking all these things into consideration he
thought that any opposition to this measure would be
worse than useless. Unless the House were prepared to
go back through the whole course of fifty years, they
must assent to this grant which the Right Honourable
Baronet had proposed. If they would but look at
the picture drawn by the Right Ilonourable Baronet
they could not but assent, in his opinion, to the propo-
sition which had been laid before them. The main con-
sideration was, whether there should be a removal of the
restrictions on the education of those Who were to be
the spiritual instructors of the members of the Roman
Catholic church, and whether they should remain in a
-comparative want of the necessary elements of their
utility, orwhether they should be instructed in all the
elements of general literature. He, for his part, did not
think that there was any alternative between an entire
disruption of the principles on which the Government
of the country had been conducted and the acceding to
the grant which the Right !lion. Baronet had proposed.
It affected no principle whether the grant proposed was
9,0001. or 20,000 L, for the principle was the same, and
his Right Hon. Friend waxerdly justified in proposing
the grant, which had for tifories of years been made be-
fore he came into offices, or-a-larger grant for the more
perfect education of the Irish ecclesiastical members of
the Church of Rome. This grant was simply an en-
largement of the usual gratit, and it was no affection of
the principle that the, grant was enlarged, and in the
present circumstances lie saw no alternative between
going back and acceding to the proposition which had
been laid before the House. To go back was evidently
impossible ; and, therefore, there was no other alterna-
tive than to accede to the proposition of his Right Hon.
Friend. If they would' refer to the case of Canada, it
was evident that they ,Irmst either withdraw from the
poplation of that coining the means which they had
griAnted for the religious education of the people, or
carry out the same principle with regard to :Ireland ;
and he thought that the. Mere mention of that instance
ought to be a sufficient warning to those who opposed
this grant. And deeply as be regretted refusing to act
with those who had been his coadjutors for many years,
yet he could not, in the present case, hesitate to support
the motion of his Right lion. Friend.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that he had been lately deeply
engaged in an anxious investigation of this subject, and
he was now fully convinced that the opinion which he
had expressed on the first day of the session, that the
announcement the Right Hon. Baronet had made at
the end of the session would excite no ordinary sensa-
tion, and he now believed that that sensation would be
increased both in extent and intensity, when the inten-
tions of the Right Hon. Baronet were made known
throughout the country. He believed that he should re-
ceive ample credit for the assertion that any opposition
to her Majesty's present Government was to him ex-
ceedingly painful, but of the measure which had been in-
troduced on this occasion he must express his most decided
disapproval, for he must confess that it exceeded his
most enlarged expectations—(Laughter)—and to which
the objections of his Hon. Friend (Sir. R. Inglis) were,
he thought, unanswerable ; but there were other consi-
derations which ought to be taken into account. He
had, the other night, presented a petition from the
Archdeacon of Buckingham and eighty clergy.—
(Laughter.) Was this a class whose opinions and feel-
ings were unworthy of consideration ?—(Hear, hear.)
They had objected most strenuously to this measure.—
(Laughter.) He (Mr. Plumptre) did not think that this
was a class of individuals to be neglected; and he would
ask her Majesty's Government whether the rejection of
their claim to consideration would put the Govern-
ment, with respect to the country, into any
better position than that in which they now stood?
What was the language of the petitions presented, to the
House on this question ? They were strenuously op-
posed to this measure. They said that a provision to
the Church of Rome was a provision to propagate idola-
try. They pronounced the doctrines o the Church of
Rome idolatry, and they knew that the displeasure of
God was pronounced against idolatry. This was the
opinion of the great majority of those who had flooded
that House with their petitions. They had expressed a
decided opinion upon the subject, and he (Mr. Plumptre)
would say, that if they passed this measure they might
expect the Divine judgment upon the country. The
great majority of the Protestants of this country were
influenced by this opinion, and he asked whether the
House was right in sitting that night to insult the people
—he should not, perhaps, say insult—but he would
ask if the House would slight the recorded opinion of
the people of England? Why should they measure as
nought the entreaties, almost the alarm, of the people
of England? He asked if the House would treat with
disrespect the petitions of the large body of her Ma-
jesty's subjects? He (Mr. Plumptre) believed that the
Roman Catholics themselves—for they had let their sen-
timents out—cared but little for this concession—
they pressed but little for this boon which
the Government was so very ready to accede to
them. If they wished to pander to the whims and hu-
mours of the Roman Catholics, then let them pass this
measure. Could they doubt that if this measure were
passed they would not be urged to further concessions?
He felt pained at being obliged to oppose her Majesty's
Government, but he also felt bound in principle to do so.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that no one would call into
question the sincerity and strong religious feeling which
actuated the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. He
(Lord J. Russell) did not think that it would be wise or
prudent, after the lapse of
.fifty years, to stop suddenly
and declare against any further grant for the education of
the Roman Catholic priesthood, but at the same
time if they found that grant was mischievous
to the community, if they found a significant reason for
its discontinuance, if they found that instead of being
educated for ministers of religion, the students of May-
nooth were brought up as conductors of rebellion, then
it would be equally wise and politic of the House to
withhold this grant. This would be a sufficient reason
why the grant should not be continued to Maynooth.
But if, on the other hand, it were admitted and affirmed
by a majority of that House, that a grant of the sum of
9,000/. and no more ought to be allowed far the sub-
siitence of tha College of Maynooth, no religious
scruples could be alleged against the incrave
of that grant to a larger sum. He thought
that all the appeals which had been made to the
religious prejudices of this country were beside the
question.—(Hear, hear.) If the Gentlemen who opposed
the present proposition had ooposed the grant of 9,0001.,
he might be willing to admit their consistency. But it had
been proved that the means of instruction were not
pupils—that the instructors
paid—then there was no room for
sufficient—that there was not a sufficient provision for
principles against the vote.
thewere
r decentiennteortfea rdecenimue
af
oot
err
lt
y.religious
—(Hear, hear.) He could very well understand why re-
ligious scruples should interfere to prevent a Member of
that House from agreeing to any vote whatever for
Maynooth College; but no Member, who had consented
to the vote in any shape, could allege religious scruples
as a reason for denying increased comforts to the
students or increased pay to the ill-paid professors.—
had agreed to the previous
(Hear, hear.) Them who

votes of 9,0001 had no ground for pretending their re-
lirlious scruples as an objection to an increase of 17,000/
The religious objection was as great to 9,000/. as
26,000/.--(Criea of " Hear, hear.") He thought it
was almost impossible to discuss in that House
the religious feeling which the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site had said prevailed against the encouragement of the
Roman Catholic religion as a system of idolatry. If
the persons who entertained that feeling came forward
to show that their own religious feelings would be in-
terfered with, these statements might have some weight.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liver-
pool had truly said, that the great majority of the people
of Ireland adhered to the faith of the most ancient
branch of the Christian Church, and that no other
spiritual teachers but the priests of that branch could
supply religious instruction to that people.—
(Hear, hear.) He concurred with the Noble Lord
and he believed that the improved instruction of the
Roman Catholic priests would enable them to make the
people as. it had made them—better than they would
otherwise have been.—(Hear.) He would not deny that
he should prefer that the majority of the people of Ire-
land had adopted the principles of the Reformation.
But he must take them as they were. They had not
changed their faith, when the people of England did so.
—(Hear.) They had preferred to sacrifice the property
of their Church, and the property of its adherents—
(Hear)—and, therefore, he agreed with the Noble Lord
opposite, that the proposed measure was one of
restitution, not of gratuity. He thought that the Right
Hon. Baronet had shown in his speech good grounds
for the increase ; and he was glad to infer from that
speech that further concession was intended. He would.
therefore, give his vote cordially for the proposition of
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would not now go into
a discussion of the proposition given notice of by his
Hon. Friend' the Member for Sheffield. But he would
say, that in the course of this discussion, strong and in-
controvertible arguments had been alduced in favour of
an endowment for the Catholic clergy in Ireland.—
(Hear.) He would not then go into a discussion of the
voluntary system; but he could not allow the debate to
pass without saying that he thought the spiritual in-
structors of the Irish people ought to be paid by the
State.—(lkar, hear.) He did not wish every one to be
misled by what he stated. But he thought that there
was nothing in the nature of the Government proposi-
tion of that night, which could afford a reason
for opposing it to those who for twenty
years had supported the grant of 9,000/ ;
He concurred with the petitions which had been pre•
sented against the grant in thinking it was a step towards
a further and more comprehensive measure ; but upon
that very ground he supported the proposition of the
Government. He could not altogether refrain from re-
ferring to the opposition which had been given in past
years to measures favourable to the rights and calcul3ted
Jo improve the condition of the people of Ireland. He
deeply reeretted that there was not even now existing
that harmony, that good feeling, that concord between the
people of England and the people of Ireland, which they
all ought to desire. He regretted to see that when a
popular leader entered a town in Ireland to propose a
repeal of the union, which in the opinion of the majority
of that House would be followed, at no distant period,
by a separation of the two countries, he was attended by
30,000 or 40,000 people, and that loud acclamations fol
lowed at his heels. In the last twenty years there had
been too much disposition in this country to inveigh
against the religion which the people of Ireland pro-
fessed and to upbraid them in coarse and contumelious
terms. He did not think that men who came forward in
1820 and said they would never get up an agitation for the
repeal of the Union, or seek a separation between the
two countries, if the Catholic Emancipation Act were
carried, would have failed to keep their word, if they had
not had good cause for breaking it. These men would
have stood to their engagements had all gone on right,
and there would have no more been inquiry now into

the cause of agitation in Ireland, than they ti-ould have
been talking, about agitation in Yorkshire or Middlesex.
But he trusted the Government of the present day were
about to abandon all former political conflicts,
and about to enter upon a wiser and a more
generous policy, which should hereafter lead to
the benefit of the people of Ireland, and lead to a better
feeling between the people of the two countries. Many
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland were as distinguished
for worth and humanity, as they were for talents and
learning. No other part of the Christian Church pro-
duced men so famous for their piety, and so distin-
guished for their excellence of character. He said he
hoped the people of Ireland would hereafter feel and
unite with the people of England. They should feel
that they were ready to do them justice—that they
were not led by any narrow projects—that they were
not led—he trusted the Hon. Clentleman who spoke
last would not think that he meant to be personal—by
a spirit of religious bigotry, to refuse that which
was justice to them, and justice to their suffering
country. He trusted they would look to this measure
not as a final measure, but as one of a series of measures
by which the British Parliament hoped to unite the two
countries in enduring bonds.—(The Noble Lord resumed
his seat, amidst loud cheers.)
Colonel Sibthorp and Mr. Stewart Wortley rose
together, to address the House. There were loud cries
for Colonel Sibthorpi but the Hon. and Gallant Member
gave way.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to take an early op•
portunity of addressing. the House, and explaining the
reasons which induced him to feel that it was his duty
to support the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Although he could not admit that there was any literal
contract for continuing or increasing this grant, he had
a strong impression that there was a moral engagement
upon this subject which persuaded him this institution
was deserving the support of Parliament. They were
answered first of all by the Hon. Member for Kent,
that on conscientious grounds they should not make
the grant; but though he (Mr. S. Wortley) felt the
deepest, and professed the strongest, attachment- to the
Church to which he belonged, yet he did not believe it
inconsistent with that attachment to concur in the pro-
posal made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Ho-
nourable Member for Oxford used an argument
which amounted to this—that, as far as the
State is concerned, it should rather see the
people of Ireland infidels or atheists, or left to their
own choice in religious matters, than see them Roman
Catholics. It was their business, however, to recognise
the responsibilities that were imposed upon them by the
State. He himself felt that responsibility sufficiently
strong to compel him to support the proposals of the
Right Hon. Baronet.
Colonel SIBTHORP here rose to address the House,
but, in consequence [of loud cries of " Sit down," and
"Divide," was obliged to resume his seat.
Mr. C. BRUCE, who was frequently interrupted by
cries of " Divide," said he hoped they would not think
it unreasonable in him to address the House at so late an
hour, but as he had been so fortunate as to catch the
Speaker's eye, he could not omit saying that he found
with great regret that this motion was brought forward
and supported by those who, on former occasions, op-
posed the further increase of the grant. They were now
bringing forward a motion which would be con-
sidered by many of their supporters, both in
side and outside of that House, as a heavy
blow to Protestantism in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) it,
was with deep regret that he found himself compelled to
come to a conclusion which would cause him to vote in
opposition to the Government on this occasion. It ap-
peared to him that the Ministers of the Crown were not
acting is accordance with those principles which should
regulate their conduct as Ministers. He could not regard
the measure, as it was brought forward, as in accordance
with their position.—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide.")
The Crown was still a Protestant Crown, it was held on
the condition of its Protestantism, and he could not see
how it was consistent for Ministers of that Crown to pro-
pose a measure having for its object the endowment of a
priesthood who would ever feel hostility to the Protestant
religion, and who would, so long as they were
sincere,_ and he believed them to be sincere, seek
not only to discourage but to subvert Protestantism.
He was also compelled to say he could not think that
the Right Hon. Baronet was at all justified in adopting
this course, because he took an active part in a measure
of a nature somewhat similar some time ago, he meant
the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Loud cries of "Divide,
divide," and "Question," from all parts of the House.)
In that latter; measure he (Mr. C. Bruce) took an active
part, though not then in Parliament, because he was al-
ways in favour of toleration.—(Renewed cries of
" Divide.") But he did not think that the concessions
in the Catholic Relief Bill at all called upon the House

for such a measure as that at present proposed.—(Cries
of " Question, question.") Therefore he would say that
this proposition involved a violation of principle which
should be guarded against. At this late hour of the night
he would not further trespass on the time of the House.
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But he would say he
would gladly support any measure involving a system of
general education for the whole population.
Colonel SIBTHORP would not occupy the House for
more than two or three minutes. He hoped that in future
stages of the Bill he might be more fortunate iu catching
the Speaker's eye than he had been that evening. He had
invariably opposed the grant to the College of Maynooth,
with no unchristian feeling towards that College, but from
a sense of duty to that religion of which he owned him-
self an unworthy member.—(Laughter.) Much had been
said about the restitution of property, but how
would the Noble Lord opposite like his family
to give up the Bedford property, which originally
belonged to the Catholics of this country ?—(Laughter.)
He would not have been surprised if this measure had
been brought forward by the Noble Lord opposite, but
he was disgusted at its having been proposed by a Pro-
testant Minister. One educated at Oxford, too—some
time the Member for Oxford, but he thanked Oxford that
he was no longer so.—(Laughter.) To this measure of
the Government he (Col. Sibthorp) should give in every
stage his unqualified opposition. He would not at that
hour of the night discuss the measure, but he would re-
serve himself fora future occesion. Uporf every stage
of it he would oppose this detestable measure—detestable
in every light and in every shape.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHELL rose amidst loud cries of " divide, divide,"
and " adjourn, adjourn." He said that only one Irish-
man had addressed the House during the present dis-
cussion, and he thought he had a kind of title.—(A par-
tial cry of " Adjourn" was raised, followed by a more
general one of " Go on," in which Sir R. Peel and Sir J.
Graham were observed emphatically to join.) He felt at
that hour of the night that it was too late to go on.—
(" No, no," " go on," and " adjourn.") He found it
difficult to go on at that hour, but if it was the pleasure
of the House, though ho was in a state of health
which made it difficult for him to go on, he would pro-
ceed.—(" Go on," " go on," and "adjourn," " adjourn.")
He certainly would yield to the injunctions of the majo-
rity,land would " go on. —(Cheers.) And when lie said
he would go on, the House would remember that it was
his fatality to be compelled to " go on " at such an hour.
He gave his entire—his unqualified approbation to the
measure proposed by the Right lion, Gentleman,
and he thought that measure was, if possible,
enhanced in value by the spirit with which it was pro-
pounded,—(Loud cheers.) He bad no doubt that one

object was uppermost with the Right Hon. Gentleman.
—(Hear,•hear.) As in the Dissenters' Bill he bad-but
one object, so in this measure he had but one object—
the interest of both countries.—(Cheers.) And he
trusted that, as he would in return meet the thankfulness
of the one, so in future tranquillity, when clamour passed
away, he would meet with honourable appreciation
from the other.—(Loud cheers.) He attached great
value to the measure for many reasons—not only
on account of the liberality of the largess con-
ferred, but also because it substituted a perma-
nent legislative endowment for an annual Par-
liamentary donation, and thus avoided what all
concurred in considering was desirable to avoid—the
periodical recurrence of theological dieputation.—(Hear,
hear.) This would give, to use an Irish phrase, "fixity
of tenure to Maynooth," and he would state his opinion,
as reference had been made to the ulterior measures that
might be in contemplation by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, at the hazard of occasioning dissertation and
criticism in Ireland—that, though they might not
attempt to take the Roman Catholic clergy under their
care, they ought to take the Catholic worship under
their protection.—(Cheers.) He thought that an
honourable distinction, without any degradation to any
party, between the Church and State could be effected
—a relation in return for which they should
expect, on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy,
no ignominious complaisance.—(Hear, hear.) He was
satisfied that the Roman Catholic clergy would reject
any stipend periodically paid at the Castle, at the plea-
sure of the Government—(Hear, hear.); but there could
be no objection raised against building Roman Catholic
places of worship, and glebe houses for the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy, without requiring from them any condi-
tions for the favours conferred upon them, thus making
them independent, giving them a true conservative
interest—he used the word in its general etymology
—in maintaining the institutions of the country,
and they would reap the benefit of the result.—
(Loud cheers.) He would not go into the history of
the • origin of the grant to Maynooth ; but every
person knew that Edmund Berke, to whom
his Honourable Friend behind him had alluded,
was the man who suggested that Maynooth should be
established.—(Hear. hear.) He saw that French prin-
ciples and French morals should not be amongst the
imports of Ireland. He perceived that a French educa-
tion and a French fraternisation would be the con-
ductors between France, and the Gallo-Hibernian
establishment in Ireland would not be for the benefit of
the State.—(Cheers.) That was the origin of Maynooth,
and the Right Hon. Baronet was only carrying out the
principle of Edmund Burke. It was said that the mo-
dern Catholic priest was inferior to the old one ; but
Farquhar, the Irish dramatist, who was well acquainted
with his countrymen, drew a portrait of one, in
which the peculiarity of the Irish priNt was drievn. It
should be reeollected that the Irish priest was sidug-
gling for Catholic emancipation against tithes, for rau-
ntcipal reform, for the Registration Bill—for God's
sake let them have the Registration. Bill in the spirit
in which this measure was enacted. if they wanted it
to be final.—(Cheers.) Let them give an interest—
an interest he would say to the Roman Catholic clergy,
and a perfect reconcilement would take place.—(Hear.)
So much had been said about a contract, and its exist-
ence was demonstrated with so much clearness, that it
was hardly necessary for him to say a word upon the
subject.—(Hear.) The Learned Recorder for London
had indeed denied it—but his Court was not
a Court of equity, and though he spoke against the
Ministers, he accompanied his observation with a recom-
mendation for mercy. But this was a measure which
was not to be viewed in a small forensic, or scholastic
spirit, but in a spirit of equity and justice. What was
the objection to it? 9,0001. was already annually de-
voted to the purpose. The country had already under-
gone great change since this grant was made, and in
considering the policy of the measure before the House
they should recollect that sigreatmetamorphose had taken
place, and that no country had, in so short a
time, undergone so 'great a change, social, moral,
and political. When Maynooth was founded there
were only three millions of Catholics, now there were
seven. When Maynooth was founded there were only
two Catholics at the bar, now there had been a Catholic
Chief Baron, a Catholic Master of the Rolls, and four
Catholic Attorneys-General. When Maynooth was
founded there was no Catholic member of any corpora-

tion, now Catholics had a preponderance incorporate
bodies. When Maynooth was founded few Roman Ca-
tholics were educated, now the great bulk of the people
were receiving education. And when men were taught
to read, and write, and count, they would soon learn to
think ; and if the whole body of the people were en the
advance, ought the Catholic clergy to remain stationary?
A great revolution was taking place, and with it the
great Catholic Church must be carried on. Will this
measure benefit you ? Yes, because it will benefit us ;
for whatever benefits you confer upon us, you will reap
the benefits of. An establishment would be founded
where genius would be allured by legitimate remunera-
tion, and all those odious habits which parsimony caused
at Maynooth, would be done away with. If they edu-
cated the priesthood in a proper manner, and placed in
every district a gentleman in mind, as well as a scholar
in education, whose disposition had undergone a process
of refinement, they would do much for the country. The
objects of this measure had been gone through, and its
utility demonstrated. The Right lion. Gentleman the
Recorder for London had talked about the profanity of
educating laymen and clergymen in the same seminary.
He differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman. In every
country on the continent the Roman Catholic clergy
were educated in ecclesiastical seminaries quife distinct
from the laity. Their ascetic habits—their habits of su-
bordination—their absence of all sensual indulgence,
indispensable to the formation of the Catholic priest,
could not be had in a mixed seminary of this sort. In
Trinity College, Dublin, he was satisfied at least that
four years out of the time of the course was not passed
in a manner the best adapted as a preparation
for the confessional. The priesthood of Ireland
were now moral. This could not be denied. They
were not only pure, but unsuspected. Some peo-
ple said that Maynooth presented nothing but rusticity,
where every individual brought his quota of contami-
nation. That was a mistake. He did not wish to see
the sons of the Catholic aristocracy entering the
Church. The duties of the Irish priesthood were such,
that men trained in habits of luxury would not be very
fit to perform them; and besides, they should remember
that some of the greatest ornaments of the Church were
men humbly born. Nature, as well as fortune, conferred
a nobility. Before the Reformational? mighty plebeians
stood up, and in the presence of the Norma Conqueror,
with the crozier turned aside the lance.—(Cheers.) Was
not that a circumstance that redounded great credit to
the Protestant Church, that men of the humblest birth
might be raised to the bench of Bishops, and take
a seat in the House of Lords—a Wolsey taking
precedence of an Earl Marshal of England.
With respect to the cost, there was great economy—great
housewifery. They did not complain of the expense of
the State prosecutions, nor of the expense of maintaining
a great military force there or a large constabulary.
They should educate a moral police of which they would
soon find the benefit. Something bud been said about
idolatry. It was inconsistent with their' consciences to
propagate an untruth, but was it inconsistent with their
consciences to make an annual grant ;for the
maintenance of Catholicity in the colonies?—(Hear.)
26,0001. in the estimation of those Gentlemen was a venial
sin, but 9,000/. for Maynooth was a mortal sin.—
(Laughter.) Such was the casuistry of Kent.—(Re
newed laughter.) When they saw the Catholic religion
subsisting as it had done since the establishment of Chris-
tianity, resuscitated in countries where it was supposed
to be extinct,' traversing the whole world, immortal and
immutable, it was not with feelings of resentment, but
with feelings of love that he had listened to the speech of
the Hon. Member for Kent. There was no reason for
these attacks on the Catholics. He would not enter into

any argument with those baneful allies 9f darkness, who
with that horrid sophistication which rendered men
the plague among their species, because the ene-
mies of human hope, the obliterators of light, and
the messengers of despair. The Roman Catholic
Church had been represented as a failure compla, but he
would assert, for the honour of that Church, that its
mighty influence had for ages been actively at work in
the amelioration of manners, the exaltation of intellect,

and the promotion of that refining principle which freed
mankind from the debasing influence of this lower earth,
and left them to follow the natural elevation of their
higher nature. In this respect, at least, the Catholic
Church had borne salutary fruit. Was there any man
who dared to say that the condition of the country had
not been improved by the exertions of the Roman
Catholic priesthood? With these facts before them, he
did not think that any Government had the right to
grcund public legislation on the convictions for personal
theology, and he believed that to act upon this prin-
ciple would be to degrade those lofty maxims of policy
on which an empire like this ought to be governed. If
they would look at the position in which the country
was placed, they would find a sufficient answer to all the
objections which had been urged in the consideration of
this question, and so great did he deem the position of
the Prime Minister of England, that he thought that all
that was little and insignificant might well be disre-
garded, and nothing but what was great, noble, and large
ought to enter into his contemplation. If they would
but look at the British empire they would see anisland contiguous to their own, in which they wouhldfinand
every principle developed which was ennobling
nature—a country whose history. was full of deeds
dewedosulodf
lofty heroism and determined p..inciple. They
endured.ot others,
They
the
would see a country filled with chivalrous men, whose
worldnd a host
heart beat with sympathies as deep, as generous, as
active as their own. They would see a country rich in
resources and teeming with fertility, and whose manifold
advantages must prove of inestimable advantage to the
whole empire. They would see such a spectacle as
would elevate their ideas of all that was great
and exalted, and the aspirations of which
were worthy respect, if ever anything was worthy of
consideration and respect. He would there assert
al
e
that the policy of G olgdlva,i3edunr nuagsnblmardonpe ntdrlleg,t
Ireland
oughtpredilection.
incindti
huvrne 0.
this
trusted
eathetsatduovreteh btaooetf
Eng-
landdtahpirepercgedtrceeoidaajttbueyAs p
cneeeir
tutoeosnrt
Ire
rol ice finli
ksmintdlenefsrsomand thocosencwilhiaotirornofemasigehdttotuforunndwiatlhl
tah(eliirsdaapipnrfou-1
bation on motives of mere political expediency. Let not
the maxims of Government be founded on the principles of
a small philosophy, and he would advise the Right Hon.
Baronet to fling the seals of office to the winds, rather
than not proceed in the path of honour and justice to
that hourne which was the consummation of his bright-
est hopes—(Loud cheering.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he should oppose this
grant on three grounds—first, on its permanency ; se-
cond, on the sources from whence it was to be
derived ; and third, the purposes to which it was to be
applied. On the same principle that he had opposed
church rates, should be vote against this grant.
They first of all plundered the Irish Boman Catholics

of their revenues, and then by way of reprisal they
took it out of the pockets of the English people,_
and yet the Noble Lord called this restitution..
When they looked to the sum of money which the•
people of England had paid to the landholders of Ire-
land—when they looked to the millions of money paid;
to the tithe owners, he could not allow them futile" to•
put their handsinto the pockets of the people of Englmiii
—he could not consent to this vote.
Lord ARUNDEL expressed his gratitude as a Ca-
tholic of England for the measure of the Right lion.
Baronet.
Mr. GROGAN opposed the measure of the gigiat.
Hon. Baronet.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers
were—
For the resolution
Against it
Majority for Ministers — 102
The resolution was reported, and the following Bill
" to amend two Acts passed in Ireland for the better
education of persons professing the Roman Catholic re-
ligion, and for the better government of the College esta-
blished at Maynooth for the education of such persons,
and also an Act passed in the Parliament of the United
Kingdom for amending the said two Acts," was read a
first time, and ordered to be read a second time on
Friday, the 11 th of April.
The House then resumed.

Captain PECIJELL moved fnr copies of several re-
ports relating to the late trial ..,.aises of her Majesty's
ships Queen, Caledonia, St. Vinc,:qt, Camperdown,
Albion, Espiegle, Daring, Flying Fish, Mutine, Water-
witch, Pantaloon, Osprey, and Cruiser.—Agreed to.
Mr. E. ELLICE moved for a Select Committee to in-
quire into the practical operation of the Acta 2 and 3
Vic., c. 42, 5 and 6 Vic., c. 67, and 7 and 8 Vie., c. 34, so.
far as the regulation of assessment in counties and burghs
is concerned. _

Mr. HAWES said he hoped the Lord-Advocate would
attend in his place to-morrow, as it was his intention to
ask him a question with regard to the manner in which
a clause, of an unusual description, was carried in the
Scotch Consolidation Bill.
The LORD-ADVOCATE intimated his intention of
doing so.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the Bill relating to the Excise auction duties be
read on Monday, when he would bring forward a mo-
tion for the repeal of those duties.
The House then adjourned at twenty minutes to Two
o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

( From the Vo!es and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)

w.. 3

DAY, APRIT

YOOTII COLLEO3

L(TY THE COMMITTEZ.)

M3LioAL maize, anti Qll2 tlOll " Taat the Chairtneet be tiireAfd
to niove the House, that leave be given to bring ja 4 Bill to anr•--e
tho Acts -,elating to' the Col go of Maynootti." ras Co-a2mlttct

divided :--1

l'akington, J. S.
Palmerston, Viscount
Parker, John
l'utton, J. W.
1'eelx•11, t'aptain
Peel, Sir:lt.
Peel, Jonathan
R. •
Pilot,
Praed, W. T. . -
I'ringle, Alexander
PitLsford, Robert
l'usey, Philip
Itawdon, Colonel -
Renton, U. W. J.
Mice, 1•:. R.
Roebuck, J. A.
Round, John
Rous, Captain
Russell, Lord .1.
'ussell, Lord E.
Russell, Charles
Russell, .7. I►. W.
/tutherfuni, A.
Sandon, Viscount
Scott, Robert
Seymour, Sir H.
Shell, R. 1..
Shelburne, Earl
Smith, J. A.
Smith, T. 11. C.
Smythe, tleorje
Somerset, Lord (1.
Somerton, V imeount.
Somerville, Sir W.
Sotherun, T. 11.
Staunton, Sir G.
Stewart, John
Stuart, Lord J.
Stuart, W. V.
Strickland, stir U.
Strut t, Edward
Sutton, Ileury
Tattered, H. W.
'rennent, .7. E.
Thornely, Thomas
Towneley, John
Traill. Geor.te.
.Treuch, Sir F. W.
Trevor, t). IL.
Tablell, Henry
Taite, 11. M.
Vane, Lord H.
Villiers, Charles
Villiers, Viscount
Wall, C. B.
Warburton. H.
Ward, H. G.
Wawa, J. T.
Wellesley, Lord C.
Williams, William
Wllshe re, W.
Wood, Colonel T.
Wonky, Lord
Wortley, John 8.
Wynn, C. W. W.
Wyse, Thomas
Yorke, E. T.
Yorke, H. R.
TELLERS.
Daring, Henry
Young, John