The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-10 00:00:00

BILL.

Lord ASHLEY moved that the House should resolve itself
into a Committee on this Bill.
Mr. LIDDELL regretted the absence of any of the Mem.
hers of her Majesty's Government. as he was anxious to draw
the,r attention to the fact that persons who had private
lunatic asylums would be greatly injured by the operatf in of
the Bill. He wished to know whether any &awe would be
introduced into the 811 to give ;hem compensation. He was
favourable to the principle of the Bill, thinking it the duty of
every county to give support and an asylum to its pauper
lunatics. _ _ _

Mr. WILLIAMS agreed with the principle of the Bill, but
he regretted that it had been introduced at so lace a period of
the session. A Bill of such importance ought to have had
more time for consideration. He thought that the case of
parties who would be injured by the measure ought robe taken
i to corsideration, where that consideration would not inter-
fere with the princip eof the Bill. He objected to the juris-
dic•ion of theiustices of the peace, thinking that the Commis-
sioners were the proper parties to adjudicate upon any question
that might be raised.
Mr. P. HOWARD said that the Bill had caused great
apprehensions in that part of the country from which
lac came, and it was thought hard that small counties should
he compelled to erect lunatic asylums, when there were num-
bers of other asylums to which they might be removed. He
believed that lunatics would be much sooner cured by removing
them to a distance, than by placing them in asylums where old
scenes and recollections would be fresh belore them. If some ma-
terial alterations were not made in the Bill, he should on the third
reading move the rejection of the measure. He thought it
quite unnecessary to force such a measure forward at the pre-
sent late period of the session.
Lord ASHLEY thought it would be better to go into Com-
mittee on the Bill, and to discuss the different points that had
been adverted to when the clauses with respect to them came
before the Committee.
The House then resolved itself into Committee on the Bill.
On clause 46 being proposed,
Mr. LIDDELL objected to the imprisonment of idiots ana
imbeciles in these lunatic asylums.
Lord ASHLEY observed that ten per cent. of the lunatics
of England were idiots and imbeciles, but as all lunatics were
to be taken before a magistrate, he would be governed by the
opinion of a medical man, which, if it were to the effect that
any of them were only idiots or simpletons, and harmless, they
would, of course, be discharged.
Mr. WAKLEY considered that great care ought to be
taken that the opinion of the medical man who first saw the
lunatic should not be the opinion on which the magistrate
should act. If this precaution was not taken, the lunatic would
not have that protection to which he was entitled.
Lord ASHLEY considered if that course was adopted, it
would greatly retard the operation of the Bill. The subject,
however, he could assure Hon. Members, should be fully con-
sidered.

The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 47 beirg proposed,
Mr. WARBURTON doubted whether sufficient protection
was given to the public under this clause. The little savings
of the pauper lunatic have been sold by an order of a magis-
trate, which ha- left him and his family destitute. The same,
also, applied to small tradesmen and persons with trifling in-
come, who had the misfortune to become lunatics ; their per-
sonal property did not meet with sufficient protection under tie
proposed law.
Lord ASHLEY instanced a case of a poor hardworking
woman. with 9s. per week, with a large family, who had the
misfortune to be afflicted with insanity, and who was supported
by the parish for some time, and eventually the entire family,
owing to the mother's inability to supply them with
necessaries, became chargeable to the parish. If this
woman in the first instance had been sent to the
County Lunatic Asylum, she would probably have been cured
at an expense of 41. or Si., and the parish would have been
relieved from the burd n which hats been entailed on it. 'I his
clause woeld provide against any such occurrence as that which
he had descr b-d.
Ai,. PA KINGTON observed that the clause would make
the pauper lunatic chargeable to the county and not to the
pari,h
After a few words from Mr. Raring, Mr. Vernon Smith,
Mr Briley, Mr. Wortley, and Mr. Bouverie,
Mr. WA KLEY s.itt that he knew of many most atrocious
ca-es in which lunatics bad been confined in order that their
prop, rty might be appropria,ed by their relations. He thought
that the clause, as it at present stood, would tend to encourage
constables ie doing wrong, by affording them facilities for
selling the property of pauper lunatics.
The clause was then vvithorawn for the purpose of being in-
troduced in an amended form on the bringing up of the report.
Clau,e 43 was agreed to, as were also clauses 49, 50, and 51.
On clause 52 being read,
Lord DUNCAN objected to the hurried manner in which
the hill was being passed. He also complained that the town
councils and magisuates had not been recognised by any of the

clauses.
After a few words from Mr. VERNON SMITH, the clause
was agreed to, with verbal amendments.
Clauses 52, 53, and 54, were agreed to, with some verbal
amendments.
Clause 55 was then proposed and agreed to, after some slight
Lii,cussion as to its wording.
Clauses 56 and 57 were then tgrced to.

Clause 58 was then proposed.
Mr. WAKLEY objected to the free access of the overseers
and guardians to the lunatic paupers, which was allowed by the
clause. He thought that they would go on parties of pleasure
to the country, under the plea of making an investigation.—
(Laughter. )
Lord ASHLEY moved that the words " at all reasonable
times " be inserted after the words " free access."
The clause was then passed as amended.
Clauses 59 and 60 were agreed to.
Lord ASHLEY then moved the postponement of the fur-
ther consideration of the clauses, to give an opportunity of
swearing in a Member.
The motion was carried, and the SPEAKER took the Chair.
Sir J. DUCKWORTH was immediately introduced by Lord
Lincoln and Sir J. Y. Buller, and having taken the oaths, took
his seat in the House as Member for Exeter.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House went
again into Committee.
Clauses 61 and 62 were then agreed to, as also were clauses
down to 70.
Clause 71, which makes provision for the discharge and re-
moval of lunatics from asylums, and for a penalty of 50/. on
officers for allowing them to escape, or to be at large without
permission, was objected to on the ground that the penalty was
too high.
The clause was amended, and the insertion of the words
" if not more than 201., and not less than 101.," and agreed to.
Clauses up to 74 were also agreed to.
Clause 75, which provides that in case of the death of a
lunatic its cause should be stated, and sent to the clerk of the
peace and the Commissioners of Lunacy, was proposed.
Mr. DuNcomrsE objected to it, on the uround that in
every case of the death of a lunatic information of the fact
should be sent to the Coroner, who should hold an inquest on
the body, and proposed that the clause should be so amended.
Lord ASHLEY said they should recollect that they were
dealing with public lunatic asylums. He could not see the
necessity of holding a't inquest in every case, however necessary
such a step might be where death oceurred in private asylums.
Mr. WAK LEY had had considerable experience as to the
necessity of the amendment during the 'Tried he had held the
office of coroner. He con idered that it was also necessary
as a species of supervision on the Commissioners of Lunacy.
Whenever a criminal died an inquest was invariably held on
his body, and he saw no reason why this should not take glace
on the death of a lunatic. It half a dozen rate-payers
were eto ed to visit an asylum, and inspect
the beds, of a lunatic, he should not press the necessity of hold-
it.g an inquest. They ought to give these unfortunate persons
alt the Protection in their pow. r.
Mr. V. S slit H was in favour of adopting some middle
course respecting those flying in private as well as in county
asylums. It "ught not, how ver, to be made peremptory,
becau-e many lun ',tics died from a long course of disease, aod
not from any other cause. Besides, the triends of the lunatics
might have a great objection to the holding of inquests on the
bodies of their r•lat ions. He objected to it being left to rate-
payers, who might he incompetent for the discharge of the
duties which woul.l thus devolve upon them.
Mr. DU:NCOAIIiE thought the holding of an inquest out,ht
not to be left to the option of 'he friends of the deceased. The
same protection extended to the rich ought to be extended to
the poor.
The H.,use then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
prity against the amendment ... —33
Mr. WAKLEY moved that the names of the parties present
at the death of a lunatic should be insered in the schedule
ep cified in the Bill, which would be signed by the medical
officers of the asylum.
Lind ASHLEY offered no objection to this proposition, and
the clause was, as amended, agreed to.
On the next clause being proposed,
Mr. DUN COM B E inquired why Bethlehem was to be exempt
from the operation of this Act?
Lord ASHLEY was understood to say that there was
a special Act of Parliament now in operation applying to the
hospital of Bethlehem.
Mr. T. D tJNCO MBE thought that if Bethlehem were exempt,
St. Luke's ought a'so to be exempted. He believed that the
Noble Lord was afraid to grapple with the monopoly existing

in the institution of BeililelVeni..
Lord ASHLEY said that Bethlehem was an institution
distinct from all other lunatic asylums in the country. It had
been established by royal foundation, and was under an especial
government of its o.s n.
Mr. DUNCOM BE still thought that this Bill ought to apply
to Bethlehem Hospital.
The clause was then agreed to.
On the first schedule being proposed,
The Earl of ARUNDEL suggested that some provision
should be made for the spiritual instruction of lunatics who
had anv glimmering of reason in their minds.
Lord ASHLEY was afraid that provision being introduced
into this Bill respecting religious opinions of the lunatics
might much impede the effectual working of this Bill.
The Earl of S ELBURNE thought that such a provision
would have a tendency to lead to religious persecution.
Mr. T. DUNCOI%IBE thought the suggestion of the Noble
Earl (the Earl of Arundel) ought to be entertained. Previ-
sions similar to that suggested by the Noble Lord were always
introduced into Acts of Parliament relating to prisons. Why,
then, not be introduced into this Bill?
Mr. P. HOWARD said, that when a man was not abso-
lutely raving mad, it might be of advantage that religious in-
struction should be afforded.
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be
received on Friday.
RAILWAY STANDING ORDERS.

Mr. GREENE moved that standing order No. 123, re-
quiring reports on railway Bills to be discussed upon every
Tuesday, be suspended to the end of the present session.
Agreed to.
MANCHESTER AND ALTRINCRAM RAILWAY

The Lord.' amendments to the Manchester and Altrincham
Railway bill were agreed to.
MANCHESTER AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY.
The Lords' amendments to the Manchester and Birmingham
(Ashton branch) Railway Bill were agreed to.
ASHTON, S I'ALYBE.I Y
RAI DGE. AND LIVERPOOL
LWA.
The Lords' amendments to the Ashtoe, Stalybridge, and
Liverpool Railway Bill were agreed to.
LONDON AND BRIGHTON RAILWAY.
The Lords' amendments to the London and Brighton
(lb sham branch) llailwas Bill were agreed to.
NORTH :VALES RAILWAY.
The Lords' amendments to the North Wales Railway Bi
were agre,d to.

GROUP A.
Mr. LASCELLES moved that the reports from the Com-
mittee on the Railway Bills and projects included in group A,
with reference to the South-Eastern Railway (Widening and
Extension of the Greenwich Railway) Bill, and on the South-
Ea-tern Railway (Tunbridge to Tunbridge Welk)
Bill, be
taken into consideration on Friday next.—Aereed to.
BETHNAL-GREEN RECTORY BILL.
The St. Matthew's, /3ethnal-green, Rectory Bill, was read a
Wird time and passed.