The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MARCH 5 1844.

as discourteous towards him. He was anxious to answer
all the points the Hon. Member had brought forward,
but he thought the best opportunity of doing so was
in a Committee of Supply. With regard to the Com-
mittee which the Hon. Member had moved for with re-
spect to the clothing of the army, it was only necessary
for him to observe that a Committee had sat upon that
subject, and it was considered by that Committee that
the clothing of the army could be better performed under
the supervision of the colonels of each regiment than by
any general order. With respect to the forces to be kept
up in the colonies a Committee had also sat upon that
subject, and at the present moment there was a smaller
force in all the colonies than was recommended by that
Committee. As to the yeomanry cavalry he thought
that subject could be much better discussed in a Com-
mittee of Supply.
Mr. WILLIAMS then withdrew his motion.
On the question that the Order of the Day for the
House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, be
read,
Mr. H. BAILLIE wished to know whether there was
any intention on the part of the Government to bring
the subject of military pensions under the consideration
of the House. If the Right lion. and Gallant Officer an-
swered in the affirmative, he would leave the subject in
his hands and not proceed with his motion.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the question was one of
considerable importance. At the present moment the
Government were collecting a vast variety of useful in-
formation by which more accurate data could be ob-
tained, and by which Government could come to a more
accurate opinion. The course that the Government were
now pursuing was only following the footsteps of the
preceding Government. He could assure his Hon.
Friend, without pledging himself to anything, that as
soon as the information the Government was collectinc,
was completed, it was his intention to bring the whole
subject under the consideration of the House.
Lord HOWICK felt no small surprise and sorrow at
the answer that had been given by the Right Hon. and
Gallant Officer to the question that had been put to him.
He thought that the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
ought to have been in a; situation to have stated some de-
cided course that was intended to be adopted by the
Government, considering that he had been nearly two
years and a half in office. The answer he had made was
calculated to raise expectations, which, if not fulfilled,
might be attended with the worst results. He (Lord
Ilowick) had some little experience in the office that
was now filled by the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer,
and from that experience he was sure that there could
not be any difficulty in giving the information required.
—(Hear, hear.) The House and the country, he
thought, had reason to complain of the conduct of the
Right lion. Gentleman. His manly and straightforward
course would have been to have stated at once the course
the Government intended to pursue.—(Hear.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE did not consider himself
entitled to the taunts of the Noble Lord. He had stated
that he believed the course the Government were about
to pursue was in accordance with the proceedings of the
late Government, and he came to that conclusion from a
letter the Noble Lord himself had left in the War-office.
That letter recommended the adoption of the course the
Government were now pursuing.
Lord HO WICK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
answer might have been well-founded if it had been last
year, or the year before. With respect to the letter to
which the Right Hon. a•id Gallant Officer had referred,
it was not with -reference to projected pensions, but with
respect to the discharge of men who were young upon
registered pensions.
Dr. BOWRING regretted that estimates of so large an
am3unt, and of such extreme importance, were not re-
ferred to a Select Committee, because, unless such a
course were adopted it was impossible that these esti-
mates could he well considered. Added to this, he
thought it was not right or becoming of that House to vote
away such large sums of money when there were only
about forty members present.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved if the proceedings of that House, when voting
away the public money, were made more public, the
greatest good would result.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD could not let this
subject drop without calling the attention of the house
to the unconstitutional nature of the immense standing
army that was kept up. They had 48,405 rank and
file ; they had 6,000 marines on shore, which made up-
wards of 54,000; then they had 10,000 pensioners,
making 64,000. The volunteer force was 14,000. The
Irish constabulary was 9.000, making the whole force
combined 87,809. Then there was the artillery and ma-
rines, of which lie had no knowledge. Now, he would
ask the Government and the House, whether it was ne-
cessary to keep up such a force ? If it was neces-
sary, why, he would ask, was it so ? Were the people
disloyal to the Sovereign? He was perfectly convinced
there never was a Sovereign on the throne of England
to whom the people were more attached. Were the
people disloyal to the Constitution? No. They were
only desirous of having the benefit of the Constitution?
—(Elvar, hear.) Was it necessary for the protection of
life and property that this immense army should be kept
up? If it was, then he wanted to know what was the
cause? The reason was this—that justice was not done
to the working classes. He did not speak of political
rights. He spoke of the condition of the working classes.
The Government and that House did not do justice to
the working classes. They legislated for other interests
than that of the poor man, and the consequence
was, that they were obliged to keep up
this large army to keep the people in subjection.
In the fifteenth century the poor were expelled from the
• land, which was seized by the aristocracy. At a subse-
quent period the poor-laws were established, to give the

poor man a compensation for what he had lost. That
law had now been altered so as to deprive the poor man
of that right, by denying him any relief except in the
last state of destitution; at the same time they did this
they kept up the corn-laws. These were the causes of
insubordination and discontent. Another cause was the
enormous amount of taxation, and the way in which it
was levied. At present the taxes were paid in a greater
proportion by the poor than by the rich. The same
reasons for discontent prevailed in Ireland, where the
poor-laws were also still more inapplicable to the dispo-
sition and circumstances of the people. No wonder
there was such discontent in Ireland, or that one of the
uses to which their standing army was applied was the
levying of the poor-rates from the people. He was the
advocate of education, but if they educated the people
without giving them the means of living, they would only
be increasing their discontent. In the present circum-
stances, and in the manner in which the poor were
treated, he did not deny that they required an army;
but he did deny that such an army would be required if
the poor were treated as they ought to be. If they
looked at the early periods of their history—periods of
which they might boast—a large standing army was not
required to keep the public in subjection. In the days
of King Alfred, the constitution that he formed was
sufficient to keep the country in order without a stand-
ing army. In those days the sheriff, with the posse
comitutus, was able to maintain the peace of the country.
But now, they were afraid to trust the people with those
arms in their hands, which they were then called on to
keep for the assistance of the civil officer. The discon-
tent altogether arose from the maltreatment of the poor.
A voluntary force taken from among all classes would
be a constitutional one. But their present voluntary
• force was not a constitutional one, being entirely taken
from one class to keep the others in subjection. He was
aware that there were not enough Members in that
House to support him, in an effectual resistance to the
Government getting such an army. If the minority
that voted with him on the last occasion were resolved,
he knew that it was possible to delay the grants for that
army, for a considerable time ; it would be perfectly
practicable to do this; but it was not practicable for an in-
dividual to undertake to do such a thing. He was free
to confess that both out of the House and in it,
though he had raised the question of a standing army,
he had not met such a display of feeling as would justify
him in any prolonged attempt to resist the Government;
If he had met proper support he would not have spared
himself, but he would freely acknowledge there was not
that sufficient feeling outside the House to justify him
in making an effort of this kind. It would be a wasting
of the public time without any effect. These were the
feelings he entertained on the subject. But he was de-
sirous of expressing his opinion on the constitutional
•
question of keeping up so large a standiug army. He
concluded by moving, as a resolution, " That the large
amount of the standing army now kept up for the public
service is contrary to constitutional liberty, and dan-
gerous to the rights of the people."
Dr. BOWRING seconded the resolution. It con-
tained a principle which he was not disposed to negative,
but on the contrary to support. In his opinion, with a
popular Sovereign, a popular Executive, and a popular
Legislature, there was no necessity for keeping up a
large standing army. lie believed that a Government
was good to the extent to which it was supported by
'public opinion, and bad in proportion to the necessity
of its employing military force. He had presented a peti-
tion from Bolton,complaining of the amount ofthe stand-
ing army. His constituents recognising the principle that
taxation and representation ought to go hand-in-hand to-
gether, and that in this House, so far frombeing associated
they were wholly alienated ; they protested, and he pro-
tested in their name, against the application of the
money they were called on to subscribe for the sup-
port of -such a large standing army. He quite con-
curred with his lion. Friend as to the small support they
received in that House, and the not yet developed opinion
out of doors. Still ho was bound to say that there was
a growing discontent and want of confidence out of
doors, on the part of the unrepresented millions who were
but ill satisfied with the proceedings of the Government.
Mr. FIELDEN said, that when Hon. Gentlemen ob-
jected to the course pursued by his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Rochdale, they seemed to him to forget
from whose pockets the taxes were derived. It was not
becoming the House to refuse inquiry into the griev-
ances of the people. He had sat upon the Hand-loom.
Weavers' Committee, and it appeared that 100,000 per-
sons were in a state of great distress—a number equal
to the slaves of the West. Indies, for whose liberation
they paid 20,000,00e/.—(Hear, hear.): The condition of
'the working classes was neglected. They brought in a
Factories Bill, but there was nothing in it which would
prove in the least satisfactory to those who worked in
factories. A Poor-law Amendment Bill was also intro-
duced, but it was a Bill which it was impossible to
amend. They could not make it acceptable to the
people. The first Bill was brought in for the avowed
. purpose of making the labouring men more independent,
He
and bad it that effect ? No, it bad not. felt confi-
dent that if they did not speedily do something to ren-
der more comfortable the condition of the people, they
would find it difficult to govern them. They were on
the brink of a volcano. He implored them to retrace
their steps. They were at present proceeding in a cir-
cle. When they got more taxes, they got more forces ;
and when they got more forces, they got more taxes;
and with the augmented taxes they got more forces I
again.— (Hear.) But they must stop at length. The
country would not long endure such a course. If the
Right Hon. Baronet gave them an assurance that he
would take the grievances of the people into his consi-
deration, nobody would refuse to vote the supplies.

The House then divided, when there app ared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority against the motion —79
The House then resolved itself into a Committee,
Mr. GREENE in the Chair.

private soldier, a pension so low, that, though it might
relieve the poor-rate, it could not support the man. And
if limited service was introduced, a better pension might
be given without increasing the expenditure of the
country. He (Captain Layard) thanked the House for
the kind indulgence they had granted him. No party
feeling had, or could actuate him upon such an occasion,
feeling, as he did, what every man in that House, what
every man in the country must feel, an anxious, a sincere
desire, for the comfort, the happiness, and the well-being
of those who, undismayed by the vicissitudes of climate,
undaunted by the sword of an enemy, maintained, as they
always had done, the glory and independence of the
country.—(Cheers.)
Sir H. HARDINGE would endeavour, as briefly as
he could, to give answers to the several questions which
the Gallant Officer had put, and, in many respects, he
entirely concurred with the sentiments of the Gallant
Officer.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer was aware
that the system of giving free discharges in 1825
had operated very usefully in reconciling families to
alloy? their suns to join the army. Besides, the effect
had been useful to the public in another way, for
the saving in pensions since 1829 had been equal to
half a million sterling.—(Hear.) With respect to the
bounties, and allowances to the recruits, he could only
answer that they were quite sufficient in cavalry regi-
ments, and he believed they were not inadequate in the
infantry. With regard to the absurd notion, which the Gal-
lant Officer had so properly endeavoured to remove, that
there was an intention on the part of the Government to
make use of regimental savings' banks as a means ofascer-
taining how far the payment of soldiers would be reduced,
he could assure the House that never was there any
such intention, and the soldiers themselves had given
the most substantial proof that the error was not very
generally received.—(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed
with the Gallant Officer as to the expediency of allowing
coals and candles to married officers in barracks.—
(Hear, hear.) He had been in communication on the
subject, with some of the most intelligent clerks. And
he was satisfied—(as we understood)—that it was ad-
visable to allow the coals and candles under the circum-
stances referred to by the Gallant Officer.—(Hear.)
In answer to a question from the Earl of SURREY,
Sir H. HARDINGE said, that although it was not
in all cases practicable to provide railway carriages for
the wives and children of married soldiers proceeding
with their regiments by railway, every effort was made
to afford them accommodation.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS must acknowledge that all
the Right Honourable Gentleman had said was very
clear. But yet it did not satisfy him.—(Hear, and
laugh.) The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had
stated that the circumstances of the country required
an increase of the forces; but he had not
stated what those circumstances were.—(Hear.)
The Gallant Officer had shown the necessity for
relieving the troops on foreign service. He (Mr. W.)
would do as much as the Gallant Officer to relieve those
troops. But there was another body of persons who also
stood in need of relief—the impoverished people of this
country, who had to pay all the expenses.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer must be aware in
what a state of starvation the people had lately been.
They were not so very badly off now.—(Hear.) But
they might go back to that again; or perhaps something
worse. There were no classes in this Empire, except those
who lived on the taxes, who were in a condition to afford
to the army more accommodation and comfort than they
had received for the last twenty-five years. We were
now in the twenty- eighth year of peace, and, according
to the sth,tements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the expenditure last year was 53,600,000/. He (Mr.
Williams) said it was mere ; but, according to the slate-
meat of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that was the
amount. The Right Hon. the Secretary at War said
that the dead weight had been reduced by the reduc-
tion in the,half-pay pensions. Why in the year 1818,
only three years after the war, the half-pay pensions
were 2,600,0001; this year they amounted to 2,200,000/.
He (Mr. Williams) rose for the purpose of proposing a
reduction of 20,000 men from the number proposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had shown that the
number of men proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
adding those forces which were as much a portion of the
military as the Guards, was greater by 59,000 men than
the average of 1822 and 1823; greater by 41,000 than
the average of 1836 and 1837; greater by 33,0n0 than
the average of the last 24 years. He therefore moved
that the number of men be reduced this year by 20,000.
Lord HOWICK did not rise with the intention of
supporting the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. He
believed that they were not prepared to make the re-
duction in the military force of the country which the
Hon. Gentleman proposed. But at the same time he
(Lord Howick) could not think the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite (Sir H. Hardinge) could rest his proposi-
tion for maintaining so large a force exclusively upon
the necessity for maintaining relief for our colonial pos-
sessions. He entirely concurred with the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer in saying that the pressure on the British
infantry of the line was greater than it ought to be. He
(Lord Howick) was persuaded that measures ought to be
adopted for the purpose of rendering relief more fre-
quent. He thought there were several measures that
might be adopted with this view. In the first place, he
retained the opinion which he had long entertained, that
much might be done by diminishing the proportion of
each regimeat that was at home. He thought it was un-
fortunate that that description of force which did not
feel the pressure so much were not required to take a
greater share of duty than they did at present, During
the time that he had the honour to fill the office of
Secretary-at-War, when the unfortunate insurrection in
Canada arose, he recommended the Government and
Lord Hill to send over two battalions of Guards to Canada.
That measure was adopted, and those Guards were now
come home, but he had not learned that any portion of
that force had been sent to any of the other colonies.
Now he was far from saying that the regiments of the
Guards ought to take a share of the colonial service ex-
actly like the regiments of the line. But he did say
that so far as service at short distances, and in healthy
climates was concerned, he thought that they should do
something. He thought that two battalions of guards
should be stationed at Gibraltar, or in the Mediterranean,
as a regular arrangement. The officers and men in the
Guards had very great and remarkable advantages over
the rest of the army. An officer in the
Guards rose to the rank of a general officer, very much
more rapidly than the officers in other regiments. No
man could look through the army list and not find that
out. He thought, therefore, that it was not too much to
ask:them to take a portion of the foreign duty. Now if two
battalions were continually abroad, either in the Medi-
terrrnean or in North America, to be relieved every two
years, he thought it would be a very good arrangement,
considering that at present the time of the Guards was
passed between Windsor and London. He thought, too,
that something more should be done by having a larger
proportion of marines. He thought a battalion of ma-
rines could be employed with great advantage at Gib-
raltar, and would be found to be of great service if a
war were to break out, and would al4o tend to diminish
thepttphuee r
nenn
csliamountongane
pensions
tfatoyAe
rsoplofl
aelucndlsosioi
elionoorngnsn
service,
had
IrNdvt
Now
evya dahi
beenbnme
edpemonwas
could
ode
rden said
not
oonotuht t
thea htshieata
had
subjecttn
hof
soldieraennrl there
yt infantry )sa-rinxoeo
and
allow that representation to go forth without a word of
explanation. That was not the amount of pension to
which a soldier was entitled, who was worn
out. It was very easy to find fault with
measures which had been adopted formerly.—(Hear.)
Formerly the practice was, that a soldier had no right
to retire from the service on a pension, unless he .'was
unfit for the service. The practice was however altered,
and then the soldier could retire, after twenty-one years
service, on a pension of one shilling per day. This was
found to lead to great inconvenience. In the first place,
men at the age of thirty-nine frequently claimed the re-
tiring pension. The full pay was only twopence per day
more than the pension ; and the men would, of course,
rather have one shilling a day and do nothing, than one
shilling and twopence per day for active service. The
Right Hon. and Gallant Officer, when serving under the
Duke of Wellington, endeavoured to check this system.
He had endeavoured to prevent men from retiring at
thirty-nine years of age, unless those who were really
unfit for service. It was further ordered, that the cer-
tificate of the regimental surgeon should be no longer
deemed of itself sufficient, as it was well known
that commanding officers desired to have young
active men in the service. The soldier who
applied to be discharged on a pension, had to go to
Chatham and undergo inspection by a surgeon not in
connection with the regiment. He had likewise to ap-
pear before the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, who
should certify as to his unfitness for military duty before
he received his pension. A great many complaints were
made by those soldiers desirous of obtaining their dis-
charge, of being afflicted with chronic rheumatism, which
although frivolous and ill-grounded, was often dif-
ficult to be disproved. When they had passed the ma-
gical period of 39, the chronic rheumatism was com-
plained of, and the pension applied for. In this manner
the pension list was every year swelling enormously, and
becoming an insupportable burden to the country.—
(Hear, hear.) Men, after a service of 21 years, might
be receiving a pension for 30 years after their discharge
—a pension, too, almost adequate to the full pay of the
active soldier.—(Hear.) The best proof that many sol-
diers obtained their discharge on frivolous grounds was
the fact, that numbers of those who had obtained their
discharge years age were now about to be put upon mi-
litary duty.
Sir H. HARDINGE—Oh no; not military duty.
Lord HOWICK—Duty to a certain extent; but he
did not attribute any blame to the War-office on that
score. It was impossible for that department to check
the evil whilst the inducement to commit it remained so
great. In order to guard against this abuse it was
necessary that the pension for mere disability should be
decreased, and upon their continuing a few years more
in the service it should be increased. It was deluding the
public to say that men might be discharged from the
army, worn out and shattered, on 6d. a-day, for he
might have a pension of Is. a-day if his merits were
equal to it. Another great evil existed under
the former system. A commanding officer might
report that the man applying for the pension
was a notorious drunkard, yet if that man had
not fallen under the sentence of a court-
martial, he was entitled to the same pension as the most
deserving soldier. This was represented to the Noble.
Lord the Member for the City of London, when Pay-
master of the Forces. By virtue of his office he was
then also chairman of the Board of Commissioners of
Chelsea Hospital, and that Noble Lord had done all in
his power to remedy it. When he (Lord Howick) came
into office he suggested (and his .proposition met the
sanction of Lord Hill), that in the event of the good
conduct of the soldier during his service he should re-
ceive the full pay, and should derive the full advantage
of the warrant of his Right Hon. Friend, and of the
good conduct warrant. Thus he would receive, not a
pension of 6d. a day, but of ls., Is. 2d., Is. 3d., or some-
times even Is. 4d., as the case might be. For his
(Lord Howick's) part, he would much rather increase the
comforts of the soldier in active service, improve his
barracks, and give him a better sad more suitable

description of food, especially when in distant climates.
He thought greater facilities should be afforded to the
soldier for going out of the army and returning home
to see his friends. He disapproved of one part of the
warrant of 1829—that part which enabled the soldier to
have a gratuity when discharged. When the soldier
could commute his pension for an immediate gratuity,
the natural improvidence of his habits too often induced
him, to sacrifice future comfort for present gratification,
a step which he ever afterwards regretted. With refer-
ence to the change in the army estimates now before
the House, regarding the troops serving abroad, he must
say that he, in a great measure, disapproved of it.
It was incumbent on him, before he sat down, to say a
few words on the management of the commissariat. It
was impossible to pass this by without saying that, in
his opinion, the administration of the commissariat un-
der the Treasury—no matter whether it was when Hon.'
Gentlemen opposite were in office, or when his (Lord
Howick's) friends were—had ever been in the highest
degree unsatisfactory. It was impossible it could be
otherwise. The load of business which pressed upon
the joint Secretaries for the Treasury was so great, that
it was impossible for them to give an efficient superin-
tendence to this branch of the military service, and the
control of it consequently fell into the hands of? a certain
number of clerks of the Treasury. They did their best,
according to their judgment, no doubt ; but still they
had not that authority which permitted an effective con-
trol, and so, the Horse Guards being unchecked, followed
on in the old routine system, and the result was a la-
mentable want of economy in the expenditure of money,
and a lavish waste of the health and comfort of the
troops. As evidence in sepport of his position, he
would advance one or two statistical facts. For 20 years
following the peace, up to 1835, in what was called the
Windward and Leeward Islands command, on an average
strength of 1,090 men, there had been an annual
mortality of 93 men, whilst the annual mortality
on the same number of men at home was 15. In the
West Indies, thentoottaolne of
losswhofomm, let men
it
tabse the
frightful
numberdriu cheedd o
by inf 6
the battle,
climate
,
remembered,
but simply and solely from disease
ne
and the hard administration of
perished
8
the commissariat, Disease of course was, to a certain
degree, the inevitable consequence of the climate, indeed,
he sincerely believed that that was a danger requiring
more courage to face than the greatest and deadliest
war. Now, where climates were so deleterious, it was
doubly requisite that every precaution should be taken to
arrest that mortality, and to make every effort to preserve
the health of the troops. And yet five days in each week
would it be believed salt provisions were given out in these
burning climates? lie could cite a still stronger case than
that. During the whole six years we had a large garri-
son in St. Helena, in order to guard Napoleon, no fresh
provisions whatever were given out to the troops—they
had uniformly and entirely salt provisions. The morta-
lity during these siz years was 34 men in every 1,000;
being rather more than double the rate of mortality in
the mother country. And this, be it recollected, was not
in an unwholesome climate like the West Indies, but in a
really healthy place. In the Mauritius salt provisions
were given out every other day to the troops—whereas,
here, and, indeed, in many other places he could enu-
merate, where the salt-provision practice obtained, fresh
provisions were actually to be obtained at a less price.
He could show that not only in regard to the lives of the
soldiers, but in point of expense, a vast saving might
have been effected had the administration of the com-
missariat been only on a proper footing and efficiently
controlled. This was no party question, and he spoke
not in a party sense. The blame attached to Lord Liver-
pool's administration, to the Duke of Wellington's, to'
the Reform administration—in short, to every Govern-
ment that had existed, including the present one. He
blamed not individuals, but the system which placed
the commissariat administration in the hands of persons
who had no other military duties to perform, and
did not truly understand military exigencies. With
these facts before them, he thought the time was come
when a better system should be arranged ; for to leave
it as at present, under the Treasury, was only to per-
petuate evils which had lasted far too long. He felt
obliged, by the opportunity which had been afforded
him, of making these remarks, and should conclude by
expressing his intention of voting against the proposed
reduction of the Hon. Member for Coventry (Me. Wil-
liams), and in favour of the vote proposed by the Right
Hon. and Gallant Secretary at War (Sir H. Hardinge).
Mr. P. HOWARD would vote in favour of the Go-
vernment if a division took place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt
bound, as the Noble Lord had made a severe attack
upon the commissariat department, to say a few words.
He was fully prepared to discuss with the Noble Lord
the propriety of keeping up a commissariat department
in connexion with the Treasury. It was a department of
account, and, in that respect, it came under the control of
those who had the management of the financial affairs
of the country. He was satisfied that the commissariat
department, as now established, added to, and did not
diminish the comfort of, the troops, and besides which, a
considerable saving to the public had been effected. He
felt convinced that if the details of the commissariat
department accounts were referred to the War-office,
they would be as unable to undestand them as the
officers of the Treasury.
Mr. F. BARING bore testimony to the intelligence
of the officers connected with the commissariat depart-
ment. With reference to the removal of the estimates
from the army to the 'commissariat department, he
should not object to it provided the Secretary-at-War
had the same power of checking the accounts as formerly.
He was not prepared to go into particular cases, but he
thought there was a great advantage in the Secretary at
War having the power of examining and checking the
accounts. It was not a question of jealousy between the
War-office and the commissariat ; though the Secretary
could not himself overlook all the accounts, they might
be, as they were formerly, under the inspection of two
comptrollers.
Sir J. CAM HOBHOUSE trusted the Hon. and
Gallant Officer opposite would hesitate before he changed
the scale of pensions of 1833. It was made with the
full sanction of the Government of Earl Grey, and was
drawn up with the most anxious care. Every pains was
taken to make the calculations sound. He deprecated
these discussions on such points.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said the discussion had, in a
great measure, originated with the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite. The far greater number of soldiers—ninety-
nine out of one hundred—were discharged on account
of being unfit for service, not being able to march a day
with 601bs. on their backs ; under the present war-
rants, these discharged men could only receive
one shilling a day for twenty-seven years' service.
Out of 27,000 men in the regiments now in England,
there were only two men who had served twenty-eight
years. A soldier might be perfectly healthy, and yet,
through not being able to carry the required weight,
unfit for duty. Whatever might be his private opinions,
he would endeavour to obtaln the best information he
could, and, after submitting it to the Government, leave
them to act as they thought best.
Dr. BOWRING supported the amendment, and ob-
served, that having always resisted an increase in the
army, he was still prepared to minimize it to the greatest
possible extent.
strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
For the amendment • l2
Majority for the motion —lo2
Colonel RAWDON thought the Government could
spare .5,000 men to the country. He therefore moved
that there be a reduction of 5,000 men.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the present number of
men were actually necessary for the relief of the troops
in the colonies,
Colonel RAWDON then withdrew his' motion.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that according to the Act
under which the pensioners were enrolled in Ireland a
warrant was to be issued, specifying the number of
persons enrolled, and the districts to which they be-
longed, and that that warrant was to be laid on the table
of the House twenty-one days after the commencement
of the session of Parliament, and he thought the House
and the country ought to get that information to which
they were entitled.
Sir H. HARDINGE had laid on the table the only
warrant that had been issued on the subject to which
the Hon. Gentlemen referred.
After some further discussion, the vote was agreed to.
On the motion for granting 3,431,7641., for defraying
the charges of her Majesty's land forces for the service
of the United Kingdom,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the' charge of 82,0001.
for small beer. The charge for last year was 71,0001,
whilst that for 1836 was only 61,0001. He would be
glad to know what was the cause of the increase.
Sir 11. HARDINGE said a penny a day had been
given to every soldier on home service for many years
past; and the addition was in consequence of several
regiments having returned recently from abroad.,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the contingent allow-
ances to captains.
Sir H. HARDINGE said this allowance was the same
as had been allowed for many years past.
his
included certain
Colonel SIBTHORP thought it would be better if
Hon. Members opposite would confine themselves to
Tboee n
ksunbojwecletsdgwie,ththwehticwho tihteemyswreerfeerrfaemd to
familiar. To
in the votes for the last sixteen years.—(Hear.)

The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the Chairman re-
port progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the motion.
After a few words from Sir H. HARDINGE, which
were not heard in the gallery, the motion was agreed to.
and the House resumed.
The Report was then brought up and agreed to, when
the House adjourned, at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock.

TAE IRISH STATE T.saLs.—A public meeting
convened by the Mayor in compliance with a requisition
signed by twenty-eight town-councillors, and about seven
hundred burgesses and other inhabitants, is to be held at
Birmingham on Wednesday, on the subject of the recent
proceedings in Ireland. Mr. O'Connell has accepted an invi-
tation to attend. •
Lord and Lady John Russell, Earl and Countess
of Shelburne, Viscount and Viscountess Jocelyn, Hon. F.
Leveson, Hon. Wm. Cowper, Right Hon. B. Macaulay, Mr.
Sullivan, and a distinguished circle, were entertained at din-
ner, on Saturday last, by Viscount and Viscountess Palmer-
ston, at their residence on Carlton House Terrace. Her Lady-
ship afterwards had a soirée, which was attended by many
persons of rank and fashion.
THE STATE APARTMENTS AT WINDSOR CASTLE.
—Orders have been issued from the office of the Lord Cham-
berlain for the State apartments to be re-opened for the ad-
mission of the public as usual. If the public were to bear in
mind that the state apartments are invariably closed every
Friday throughout the year, it would be the means of saving
many a lost journey to Windsor.
EXTRAORDINARY ROPE.—Wre are informed by Mr.
fj* T.
Tr__,___egeXas, of Truro, the agent for Cornwall for the pa-
., wire-rope, that Mr. Andrew Smith, the patentee at
near London, has just completed a galvanised
wire• rope of the astonishing length of 123 miles, which is
rinotaednsd. edwfoervreelseciuntriecathliscommamy ucnonicfladtieonntlyonbcondeesoignf
athteedrathile-
-longest rope in the world.--West Briton.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.

COURT OF CHANCERY, March 4!
The LORD CHANCELLOR sat in Lincoln's Inn Hall to-day
shortly after 11 o'clock.

FOLEY V. HILL.
The further arguments in this part-heard appeal occupied
the Court the whole morning.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
OLD COURT.

The 113th session of the Central Criminal Court commenced
yesterday in the Justice Hall, Old Bailey, before the Right
Hon. the Lord Mayor, the Recorder, the Sheriffs, and Alder-
man Farncombe. On calling the grand jury, a gentleman of
the Hebrew persuasion, Simeon Optheinm, claimed exemption,
on the ground of being secretary and clerk to the Great
Synagogue, and that, were he absent from his duties, the
business of the Synagogue would be almost at a stand-still,
and the poor would materially suffer.
The RECORDER—You, then, are in the light of a parish
officer? _ _ _

Mr. Optheinm—Exactly so, but with duties in addition.
As a further ground of exemption I may state, that this
afternoon and to-morrow are high holydays with the Jews,
and my services in the synagogue cannot be dispensed with.
The RECORDER—YOU have no legal ground of exemption,
but, under the circumstances stated by you, the Court excuses
your attendance.
The grand jury being sworn, the RECORDER proceeded to
charge them. The Learned Gentleman said, the calendar of
the present session did not appear, in point of numbers, to be
heavy, and the depositions, as transmitted to him, did not
furnish any matter in general on which it was necessary
for the Court to offer any particular instructions to them.
There were, however, two cases on which he would offer a
very few words to their notice. One of these was a charge of
revolt on board a ship, and the other was for murder. The
persons charged with revolt on board ship were named
M'Gregor and Lambert. Theirs was an offence provided for
by the 11th and 12th of Wm. 111., c. 7, s. 9, which enacted,
amongst other things, that if any seaman or mariner should
run away, or endeavour to run away, with any ship, or should
endeavour to corrupt the crew, or seduce them to go over, to
the enemy, or to lay violent hands on the commander, or to
confine him, or should make, or endeavour to make, a revolt
on board ship (and this was the gist of the charge against
31`Gregor and Lambert), then all and every such person was
guilty of felony. They would carefully consider the circum-
stances which would be brought before them in connection
with this charge, and decide whether or not the two prisoners
had banded together, with other personk for the purpose of
raising a revolt. It was not necessary to the support of the
charge that they should have the guilty intention of running
away with the ship : it would be sufficient to have proof that they
had, by their actions or their words, caused a revolt, or en-
deavoured to cause a revolt, on board the ship. From the
depositions he (the Learned Recorder) gathered that there
was great dissatisfaction on board the ship ; that some of the
crew used menacing language to the captain, and that when
he, assisted by his mate, had taken and put into custody one
of the offenders, that the prisoners conspired with others to
use dangerous weapons to effect his release. "Whether they
were suffering under real or imaginary wrongs was net a
question their (the jury) had any thing to do with. They
must limit their inquiry to ascertain the fact whether there
was a conspiracy on board the ship to deprive the captain of
his command : in other words, whether there was a revolt, or
an endeavour to cause a revolt, and whether the prisoners
were aiding and assisting in that endeavour. If evidence to
this extent should be brought before them, there would cer-
tainly be a sufficient ground for them on *tilich to find a bill.
With regard to the charge of murder, it was a most melan-
choly case. It was the case of a mother charged with.
destroying two of her own children, and after having done
this, with making a serious attempt upon her own life, show-
ing, to a certain degree, the- extreme state of mental excite-
ment under which the unhappy woman was labouring. He
was bound to tell them that, judging from the depositions then
before him, and from the declarations which the evidence at-
tributed to the woman, there would be no doubt that in law
the crime of murder had been committed. He should ex-
press no opinion to them on the ultimate result of the case,
but it appeared to him (the Recorder) to be their bounden
duty to put the case in a course of enquiry before one of the
I.neued Judges of the land. All matter of excuse or pallia-
tion must be discarded from their minds ; such only could be
adduced in defence, and must be for the consideration of the
petty jury, and not of the gentlemen he had then the honour
of addressing. Their duty was simply to inquire whether
the lives of these two children had been sacrificed by the
hands of their parent. It was a case certainly entitled to
the greatest compassion, far it appeared that when the
unhappy woman committed the crime with which
she was charged, she was in a state of the most
• abject misery and distress. Her agony of mind amount-
ed to distraction, and in this state she committed her
awful crime. These were topics which, however they might
demand their sympathies as men, must not interfere with
their duties as grand jurors—they would hereafter be care-
fully considered, and he was sure with that kindness which so
sad a case called for from every humane mind. The Learned
Recorder having complained of the delay which constantly
occurred in the transmission to the Court of the depositions
upon which prisoners were committed, and which every ses-
sion debarred him from giving to the grand jury all the
advice and assistance he desired to do, said he had no further
observations to make, and they could therefore retire to the
performance of their important duties.