The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-16 00:00:00

NATIONAL DEBT.

On the Order of the Day for the second reading
It the National Debt Bill being read,
Mr. HUSKISSON begged to be understood as
not snaking it matter of complaint against his Ma-
httY's Government, that by an unforeseen and un-
t4litroulable concurrence of circumstances, either
this question, or the explanation of the financial
4tate of the country, had not been laid before the
~ouse at an earlier period. In the general view
'ken by the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exche-
-111er of the finances of the country and of its future
t,espeets—in the general opinions which he had so
and clearly expressed--he (Mr. lluskisson)
.tdially concurred; and above all, in that opinion
ae,ieh the Right Hon. Gentleman had so distinctly
manfully expressed, that there should be no
eking Fund, except such as might be supplied by
lte surplus of the revenue above the expenditure.
bthis point all were agreed. He knew he might
all the
as one of those who had not adopted
the modern discoveries in finance, but nobody
ineuld arraign the correctness of his judgment,
lamenting that the surplus was not more con-
thlerable. He agreed that it was desirable that
tik country should be kept in a state to main-
to 41 its rank, and assert its pre-eminence,
vindicate the public rights and honour, and to
Preserve the balance of the other nations. He
:Peed that we should, in the absence of war, make
tfenuous exertions to meet the engagements con-
'eted under circumstances of emergency and dan-
L:d r' Therefore he was disposed to lament that we
not a larger Sinking Fund. Three millions was
or small a sum when compared with the amount
Our debt ; and he was, nevertheless, satisfied with
the Course taken to make the actual surplus revenue
the Sinking Fund. He concurred with his Right
Hen. Friend in rep. robating the doctrine of those
/1110 wished to reduce the three millions to one mil-
Ison and a half, or any other small sum, just enough
l
guard-against our running debt. There was an-
L.ner point of his. Right Hen. Friend's speech, too,
\lth which he entirely concurred—he alluded to a

valuable recognition of principle lie had made in the
coarse of it, viz. that the remission of taxes liberated
the trade and industry of the country, and contributed
to improve the comfort of all classes of society.—
(Hear, hear.)—He was as disposed as his Right
Hon. Friend bad stated himself to be, to look at the
unfunded debt of the country as a part of its finan-
cial situation, calling for the most watchful jealousy
on their parts, and he was quite as anxious to place
it on a more satisfactory footing. He owned he
could not, taking all the circumstances of the un-
funded debt into consideration, and connecting them
with the present state of the advances and discounts
of the Bank of England, which ought never to be
separated from the amount of the unfunded debt—
he could not say that he was altogether free—he
would not say from alarm o f present inconvenience
—but of prospective disquietude and alarm—(Hear,
hear.)--In 1819, when we were called upon to con-
sider of the resumption of cash payments we were
told by the Bank of England that it was necessary
that we should pay them the 10,000,0001. advanced
by them to the Government, in Exchequer Bills.
The 10,000,0001. were paid, but since then more
than that sum had been advanced by the Bank to
the Government, and that in a manner which placed
the money less under their controul than when
they advanced it on Exchequer Bills, and under
circumstances which, should a case of emergency
arise, would place the country in a situation of diffi-
culty, and possibly of eventual loss. In 1823 the
Bank contracted with the Government for whatwas
called the Dead Weight, that is, the purchase of an-
nuities to the amount of 585,0001. for forty-four
years. Nov, certainly—and what he was about to
state was upon his own knowledge—at the time
this contract was made it was the expectation, he
did not mean to say of the Dirictors of the Bank,
but of those who treated with them on the part of
Government, and also, he might add, the expecta-
tion of the public, that the annuity so purchased by
them should be gradually distributed and sold to the
public. Otherwise the Bank keeping the whole of
the annuity, and paying not less than 13,000,0001.
during 44 years, might as well have had its capital in-
vested in land or houses, or in any thing else not
convertible into the means of meeting other engage-
ments. Had it been intended, on the part of the
Directors, to keep the annuity permanently, the na-
tural thing to have done was, to have called together
the whole body of the Bank Proprietors, and to have
stated to them that such was the nature of the con-
nect, that it was an advantageous arrangement with
the Government and them to have called upon
them to advance the necessary capital. In
that case the public would have dealt with
the Bank as with any other party who made an
advance of money. But as it was, instead of
the capital being advanced in order to make the pay-
ments to the Government, all the Bank did was to
lend its credit without an advance of capital being
made on the part of any one person who had a pe-
cuniary interest in that corporation. The difference
between such an advance and one on Exchequer
Bills, was very material. If the advance was
made on Exchequer Bills, in case of emergency
they could be redeemed; and the public, if they
thought the amount too large, might pay them
off, or if the Bank found they were too much
in advance, they might claim payment ; but now
the public had no controul over the matter, for
there was no possibility of their setting them-
selves from any part of the sum without the consent
of the Bank. That body had advanced more than
ten millions—he believed nearly eleven—on this
score ; to be added to that was a large sum on ac-
count of Exchequer Bills; also eight millions in de-
ficiency bills, besides something considerable on the
malt duties. The only description of advance in
which the Bank was deficient was that on mer-
cantile Bills of Exchange.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
Looking to all these circumstances, and the distant
possibility of a change in the situation of the country,
be thought it desirable that we should not be placed
in a position in which the Bank, in order to do justice
to the engagements which it had elsewhere contracted,
would be under the necessity of destroying the circu-
lation of the country, or of taking a course which might
be inconsistent with the maintenance of our present
metallic currency. Not only was it desirable that
we should not for these reasons be placed in such a
position, but also it was desirable that we should
avoid, in order to guard against that which we must
consider the greatest of all evils, the possibility of
again having recourse to a Bank Restriction Act.
What had been the result of the course lately pur-
sued ? We heard from various parts of the country
that there was at that moment, or was likely to be,
an obstructed and straightened circulation, owing to
the calling in of the one pound notes. He did not
believe that such would be the effect of that mea-
sure, and he knew that in the metropolis there was
a perfect plethora of money ; indeed, such as had
never before been known. The Bank at this mo-
ment, as he understood by the common rumour, had
deposited in its hands 6,000,000/. of money, which
could find no beneficial employment. This was a
far greater amount than he ,had ever known to be
lying idle in its hands before. Every banker in
London also had large deposits in his hands, for
which he could find no employment, consistent with
the ordinary operations of banking. If the country
came to be placed in a situation in which it would
be required to make great pecuniary exertions, a de-
mand for money would arise, and these deposits,
amounting to six millions, would be withdrawn,
which would prevent the Bank from diminishing
the circulation. Under any of the unfavourable cir-
cumstances which, in the course of human events,
must occur, he thought it desirable, upon principles
of economy, upon principles of security, upon every
principle which ought to regulate the proceedings of
a country like this, that considerable efforts should
be made. He did not call upon the Government
to do it in one month or six months; but, as soon
as possible, to place the unfunded debt upon
a more contracted scale, and diminish its amount.
The Bank of France, with a capital of 8,000,000/.
employed half of it in mercantile discounts, the legi-
timate use of a banker's funds. The mercantile dis-
counts of the Bank of England, he apprehended to
be at present very inconsiderable indeed. If the
Bank Directors were to relieve themselves of the
public securities, which he thought they held to an
inconvenient extent, in proportion as the circulation
was called in by their sale would arise ' the demand
for discounts, and the other legitimate modes, in
which banks, for their own security, generally em-
ployed their capital. He did not mean to say that
the safety of the Beek was by any means in danger,
as it was far too opulent to feel any ordinary shock;
but the steps it would take for its own security
would distress the other ranks of society in the same
manner as in 1825. The signs and symptoms of
those times were obvious to many, and before the
event he him self had not neglected to give 'warning
of what might happen. He intreated his Right
Hon. Friend not indefinitely, or long, to postpone
the revision of that part of our finances which related
to the unfunded debt, and the Manner in which so
came to be placed b
iolln bdeitnohdgast.r_ecao(dentareoauri v
, second
large a portion of the credit and capital of the banker
h
oTabgeh
qt
ot oe s ht aoso,e
foovre
ther all its fu eha et.
et
having been put,
Mr. MABERLY thought the Parliament called
upon to protect the country from the evils that
might result from the Bank not having the free com-
mand of its funds. He hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would take the unfunded debt out of the
hands of the Bank. With respect to the monopoly
of the Bank, he must say, that he thought the Bank
had not done what it ought in consideration for it. All
the Bank seemed to look to was its own profits.—
Other Banks were discounting at two, three, and
four per cent. ; but the Bank of England had a
higher rate of discount, because its funds were taken
up by the dead weight, by mortgages, and advances
to the Government, which, he agreed with the Right
1101/. Gentleman who had just sat down, were not
legitimate objects of banking. He should wish to
recommend to the Government the redemption of
the Three and a- Half per Cents. He differed com-
pletely with the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool

upon the subject of the Sinking Fund. The Right
Hon. Gentleman himself had made use of an argu-
ment which was conclusive in his favour. He had
said that the taxes being reduced had greatly re-
lieved the subject. Now that was exactly his (Mr.
Maberly's) argument for wishing the Sinking Fund
to be not more than a million, or just so much as
would take off the unfunded debt, and leave the re-
mainder of the surplus for the reduction of taxes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
in what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Huskisson) so concurred in the main, that upon those
minor shades of difference which existed between
their opinions on the subjects referred to, he (Mr.
Goulburn) thought it not worth while to occupy the
time of the House. With regard to the Bank, in-
deed, he would observe that he thought the concerns
of that establishment were matters of which its Di-
rectors must be the best judges; and that the Go-
vernment was not called upon for any further inter-
ference than such as a vigilant observance of their
proceedings, with a view to the general interest of
the country, demanded. (Hear, hear.) The argu-
ment of the Hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Mo-
berly) seemed to proceed upon a notion that he (Mr.
Goulburn) had entered into some sort of understand-
ing at some future period, to apply the whole surplus
of the revenue to the redemption of unfunded debt.
But that Hon. Gentleman was quite mistaken in
supposing that he had, on any occasion, so engaged
at an antecedent period for the performance of any
specific act hereafter to be done, in relation to a ques-
tion and to transactions of such immense extent and
importance. (Hear.) All that he (Mr. G.) claimed
for the Government was, that they might be left
free and unfettered as to the course which, under
existing circumstances, they might deem it necessary
to adopt.
Mr. HUME said that in the Committee he should
move that amendment of which he had already given
notice, namely, that, in respect of the appropriation
of the 3,000,0001., these words should be added in
the preamble--" provided, only, we have so much
surplus revenue." He must express his entire dis-
sent from the doctrine of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Goulburn) about non-interference with
the Bank, when he knew that if, upon that Right
Hon. Gentleman's going to the Bank Directors, on
the sth of July, saying, " Pray, lend me 6,000,0001.
otherwise I cannot pay the public creditor his divi-
dends." The Bank Directors should choose to
reply, " We cannot," or " We will not"—when he
knew that, in such a case, the Right lion. Gentle-
man must be completely at their mercy—he cou!d
not but feel that it was most necessary for the Go-
vernment to exercise the most vigilant superinten-
dence over the Bank's proceedings.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Moberly,
and Mr. Huskisson, severally explained.
After a few words from Mr. Leycester, the Bill
was read a second time, and committed for Thursday
next.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
then moved the reading of the other Orders of the
Day.

The Slaves Removal Bill, the Customs Bill, and
the Customs Duties (Sugars) Bill, were passed
through several stages.
The Report on the Butter Trade (Ireland) Bill,
being brought up,

Mr. M. TIT2GERALD intimated his intention
of introducing a clause hereafter to mitigate the liabi-
lity of the farmer to Excise penalties.
The House having gone into Committee on the
Irish Butter Trade Regulation Bill, several clauses
were agreed to without a division. On that repeal-
ing the Local Acts relating to the City of Cork, Mr.
M. Fitzgerald moved it be omitted, when the Com-
mittee divided—

For the Amendment l7
Against it 24

Majority _ _ —7

The House resumed, and the Report was ordered
to be received to-morrow.

The other Orders of the Day having been dis-
posed of, the House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
NOTICE OF MOTION FOR THIS DAY.

Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer—ln the Committee on
Consolidated Fund Bill, to introduce a Clause for ap-
propriating the Supplies of the year.
ORDERS OF TILE DAY FOR THIS DAY.
I. Customs Bill—Third reading.
2. Slaves Removal Bill—Third reading.
3. Lunatics Estates Bill—Report.
4. Butter Trade (Ireland) Bill—Report.
5. Benefices Resignation Bill—Report.
6. Small Debts Bill—Committee.
7. Deserted Children (Ireland) Bill—Third reading. '
8. Welland Canal Bill—Committee.
9. Consolidated Fund Bill—Committee.
10. Exchequer Bills (16,046,8001.) Bill—Committee.

NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY.
Next session.

1. Sir Francis Burdett—Motion on the subject of flogging
in the Army.
2. Sir James Mackintosh—Consideration of Petition of
Mr. O'Reilly, complaining of loss arising from the
insolvency of Mr. Ricketts, Keeper of Registry Of-
fice at Madras, and from the negligence of the Trea-
surer of that Government.

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE.

FROM LLOYD'S.

FALMOUTH, JULY 13.—Wind N. W.—Arrived
off port Cornelius, Creighton, from Smyrna. Arrived
the Susan, Holliday, of London, from Bengal.
DEAL, JULY 14.—Wind W.—Arrived the Blen-
heim, —, from the West Indies ; Ringdove,
Gardner, from Oporto—sailed the sth inst., and
brought four Portuguese passengers, who have landed
here. They bring the Corrcio do Porto Extraor-
dinario of the 4th inst., containing an account of the
entry of Don Miguel's troops into Oporto the day
preceding, and a Proclamation of the General of
Division, Jose d'Azeredo Pinto, in the name of his
Majesty Don Miguel I. They report that the Eng-
lish had embarked.

GREENOCK, JULY 12.—Arrived the Pomona,
Millar, from Jamaica; Phcenix, Cuthbert, from
Bay Chaleur; and Two Sisters, Mackenzie, from
Pictou.

CORK, JULY 12.—Wind N.W.—Arrived the
Grecian, Allen, from Bombay; and Heroine, Hall,.
from Quebec.

DOVER, JULY FL—Arrived the Waterford,
—, from Havannah.

The Palmyra, Lamb, from Bengal, has arrived off
the Wight.
The Arethnsa, Johnson, from Singapore, has ar-
rived in the Downs.

The William, Lushington, from St. Kitt'.,, is
supposed to be arrived in the Downs.
The Barnsley, of Sunderland, Bainbridge, foun-
dered on Sunday, off Cromer.