The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATITRDAY MORNING, JULY 19, 1845.

Monday last, of two men having been flogged at Windsor.
The men, it would appear, were flogged for refusing to strip
naked in the presence of the other men. He wished to know
if that report were correct.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said the men were examined in
consequence of a disease prevalent among them, and which re-
quired a very close medical examination. Fourteen of the men
examined on the occasion in question were infected with this
disease. The punishment was inflicted in consequence of their
refusing to march to tke black-hole, and to obey the commands
of the commanding officer who ordered them there. He need
not tell the House that it was essentially necessary that the
commands of the officers should be implicitly obeyed. The
commanding officer stated to the men that they had committed
a most serious offence and commanded them to be confined for
forty-eight hours, and when the order was given the men made
no remonstrance, but shortly afterwards the sergeant returned
and stated that they refused to march to the black-hole. The
commanding officer then sent for the men and told them that
they were guilty of a great military crime. The sergeant then
gave the men the word a second time, when the men again re.
fused to march. The officer himself repeated the word
two or three times, and they continued their refusal
to march. He ordered them back to the guard-room and
again remonstrated with them, but they still persisted in their
refusal. The officer having heard the statement of the surgeon,
and the feeling which was displayed toward his orders, then
almost: immediately convened a court-martial, which awarded
the punishment. He had stated these circumstances, because
lie wished that there should be no false impression with regard
to the case.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
not answered the most important part of the question—namely,
whether it was usual that the soldiers should be inspected in
each other's presence in such numbers.
Mr. S. HERBERT' said that it was customary in the army
that there should be a strict examination before the surgeon,
and it was also customary that they should be ordered to bathe
together. The inspection generally took place in the room of
the men in the morning.
Mr. WAKLEY believed that there was nothing more re-
pulsive to the common feeling of manhood than that soldiers
should undergo such an examination stark naked, in the pre-
sence of a large company of soldiers. He knee/ not what were
the arrangements in the army, but he thought that the effect
would be very dangerous. There were seventy soldiers at pre-
sent confined in one of the metropolitan gaols in consequence of
misconduct, and he thought the practice which was at present
resorted to, tended to destroy the reeling which should exist in
the army.
RECOMPENCE FOR SERVICES IN CHINA.
Captain BERKELEY rose to bring forward the motion of
which he had given notice for a Committee of the whole House,
to consider the propriety of an address to her Majesty,
humbly requesting that she would be graciously pleased
to grant a pecuniary recomt eece to the officers, sea-
men, soldiers, and marines, engaged in the operations
against the Chinese Empire, in the years 1840, 1841, and 1812,
The Hon. Member then called the attention of the House to a
memorial presented to the House by Mr. Gordon Bremer,
showing the amount of money that had been taken during the
war in China, and contending that the grounds laid in the
memorial were sufficient to show that the memorialist was en-
titled to prize money. He next referred to what he called the
authority of the "greatest warrior of the age," to show that
the actions that had taken place in China were in fact a war.
The Noble Lord said that the soldiers, although possessed of
considerable plunder, had net squandered it, and had shown
themselves the friends of the people whom they had con-
quered. This was the testimony of one of the members of
the Government, and he would call the attention of Honour-
able Members to it. They had been regularly in the habit of
allowing the Indian army not only batta, but also that which
they took or destroyed while engaged in warfare. Would they
treat the army of China worse than that of India, or would
they deprive the army of Sinde of that bounty hitherto awarded
the armies of India for successful warfare? There ought to
be no such distinction made. The Chinese army had been
engaged in long and arduous warfare, and had carried out
some of the most brilliant achievements that ever had been
accomplished by British arms. The Gallant Member then
went into a sketch of the war in China, detailing some of the
most remarkable victories of the campaign, and the sufferings
and fatigue to which the naval and land forces had been sub-
jected. The lion. Member then read a letter from Captain
Grey, detailing the sufferings of the men during the year
1840. Now, there were men who were for voting to make
their way into the interior of China, with the evidence of this
mortality before them. When they had their prize money
they might have effected this, if they had been sure of it.
But paltry as that was—and he would tell them what it was—
the superior officers had from 1001. to 2001., and the petty
officers had 4/. If the latter had been employed in the
dockyards, instead of being engaged in China, they would
have received one-third more than they would receive for
their services in that country. Sarely this was the hardest
ease that ever was. Supposing that a poor widow had two sons
engaged in this no-war, what would be her
feeling—supposing these two sons were killed in the service of
their country—when she went to receive their prize-money, and
was tendered 4L for each—each of her children? Why,' it
was said that the navy was discouraged—that no man would
enter into the service; but if men were well paid there would
be no such hesitation. But the moment men had earned their
prize-money, as in this ease, in stepped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and said that they had al. eady received a donation
in batta. He had gone thus far in endeavouring to assert the
rights of those deserving men, and in doing so contended that
he looked only for their rights; and no Member of that House
could deny that they were the just and fair rights of these
men. Could the House refuse what these men asked, when
they remembered how others had been rewarded for their ser-
vices? Look at Lord Exmouth ; he got 100,000/. for
the taking of a place which he did not keep
five minutes. He did not mean to say that that reward was
not well deserved ; but he denied that those men who had
served in China were not as brave and as determined, and as
humane, as any soldiers in the British army.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir Hugh Gough and Sir Wm. Parker had been rewarded for
their services, and no Member of that House could stand up and
say they had not earned it; but surely if the services they had
rendered their country were deserving of such reward, that was
a still stronger argument in favour of those men whose cause he
advocated, and who had received but 4/. each.—( Hear, hear.)
He feared he was but a weak advocate in the cause of those
whose rights he had undertaken to defend ; but he did hope
that the House would acknowledge the justice of that cause,
and that it would accede to his motion, which was but an act of
simple justice. If the House refused to reward men who had
fought so hardly, he could tell the Government that they could
hold out no inducement to men to enter the service, and they
would give the greatest blow to the British navy that it could
receive.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in
rising to oppose the motion he trusted the House would not
believe tkat he meant to deny the bravery, or zeal, or humanity
of those who fought in China. But he begged to remind the
Hon. and Gallant Member that the power of conferring re-
wards of this sort had always been most jealously reserved to
the Crown. He had stated, on a former occasion, that it was
laid down at the outset of those operations that they were un-
dertaken for the purpose of enforcing compensation for monies
taken from British subjects, and of compelling the Chinese to
conform to the practice of civilised nations. But in order to give
a title to prize money, there must be a declaration of war, a
proclamation of the Crown granting prize money, and an Act
of Parliament determining the manner in which the prize
money should be distributed. If the principle now set up were
acceded to, it would involve this country in the greatest
difficulties whenever it should be found necessary to make
reprisals upon any foreign power. The Honourable Gen-
tleman had said that the grant in this case was a
niggardly one, and spoke of the quantity of prize money
as magnificent, whereas there was no prize at all.—(Hear.)
In fact, when Chinese vessels were taken and retained, a li-
pp
cation was made to Sir H. Pottinger to appoint prize agents.
But he declared that the vessels were not captured as prizes,
but only to be detained until proper restitution should be made
by the Chinese Government. Yet, in making recompe o
nce t
the officers and men for the services rendered, it was thought
might to have some regard to the value of the captures, which,
under other circumstances, would have been prizes. Accord-
ingly, 420,000/. was allotted, which the Hon. Gentleman con-
sidered far below the value of the property captured. But,
in
fact, it was more than tho value. In Syria, and at Algiers,
the gratuities were far less than the value of the property cap-
tured. With respect to the distribution of the gratuity, he ad-
mitted that it had taken place in this case in a manner some-
what different from the regulated distribution of ordinary prize-
money. The principle of batta, which prevailed in Indian ser-
vice, was adopted ; because, under the circumstances, it would
have been inconvenient, and pregnant with cause of dissatis-
faction to adopt any other principle. The Hon. Gentleman had
drawn the picture of a boy dying in the arms of victory, with
the hope that his prize-money would render the last days of an
aged parent comfortable. But the Hon. Gentleman ought to
know that he was holding out delusive expectations in such a
statement as that ; for he must know that a private soldier or
sailor could not expect to receive for his share any amount
which wou3cl enable him to leave his successors in independ-
ence.—( Hear, hear.) It was very well known that, in time of
war, it was impossible so to apportion the prizes that the most
deserving should be the best rewarded. He denied, there-
fore, that there was any ground of complaint in this case.
420,0001. had been distributed ; and, in fact, the whole value
of the captures was no more than 117,000/. It was quite idle
to say that the compensation given by the Chinese Govern-
ment was to be regarded as prize.—( Hear.) It was a most
painful position for any man to be placed in—a position to be
obliged to resist applications to the House for recompense to
the most deserving members of the military and naval services.
—(Hear, hear.) Still he was compelled to resist applications
so groundless as the present. He could not think so badly as
the Hon. Gentleman opposite of the seamen and soldiers in
her Majesty's service, that they would have refund to do their
duty unless theywere certain of increased emolument—of asudden
largess. He could say no more as to the amount of the re.
compence already given, than that it exceeded the amount of
the captures, that it would be received with satisfaction by the
officers, seamen, soldiers, and marines engaged in the opera-
tions against China, and that it would stimulate them, if any
stimulus were wanted, to equal gallantry on future services.
Sir C. NAPIER said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
set out, as was usual when justice was going to be denied, by
reminding the House that this was a constitutional Govern-
ment.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that there
was no war, and there could be no prize money. But this was
not the case, for, in 1804, when four frigates were sent out to
watch the Spanish galleons, and succeeded in capturing them
as prizes, there was no declaration of war. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer must have a bad memory, for, only last year, he
stated, on the subject of the Danish claims, that the vessels
captured by Denmark were good prizes, because no war had
been declared, and now, he said that the Chinese junks were
not prizes because war had not been declared. He?e
was a war for three years, a tedious, though not a very bloody
war, because they were contending with enemies not very well
acquainted with the science of arms, but a war in which much
danger and hardship was incurred, was now called by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer no war at all ! But what said the
Duke of Wellington? Why, in a speech in the House of
Lords, contrasting the state of E-gland in its services abroad,
he appealed to the war in Spain, in Affghanistan, and China,
and yet, forsooth, at this hour of the day, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was to come down to the House and seriously state
that no war against China had been declared.—( Hear, hear.)
Let them look at other instances, and see what had been the
course,° previously adopted. At Navarino, an affair of one day,
b oOe
ship 0 was/.ooff t givenaahbevo eulriabout
three
forha rar
egneed hours.
uo prize-money
rawr o
sfiAv et
frigates,At
votedol g
fiboe err
Algiers,
fora
ozntredr i
a workey i also of
b thatute d
for an
.m on.sa and,
„in
few action
hours,
though war was not then formally declared, the Secretary to the
Admiralty took care to prove that a war actually existed,
and accordingly received war pay. The petty officers received
at that period 171. each ; for the six weeks affair at Syria 13/'
was allotted; while for the China war of three years 4/. was
given for one year, and in all about 16/. was granted, because
they were told, after hard fighting during that prolonged
period, that war was not declared ! Why, if that assertion
were true, then were the English no better than pirates in
seizing the ships of the Chinese, and the Government no better
than deceivers in placarding Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the
other naval ports, with announcements that the fortunes of the
sailors who went out to China would be made
by all the batta
they would receive.—(Hear, hear.) Why were they not told
honestly that they were to go and fight in a distant and foreign
war—that they would receive plenty of hard knocks, but ;o
prize money.—( Hear, hear.) But, by the present system, the
petty officers, one of the most important classes in the ships,
and who were looked on by all as the chief instruments
to sup-
press mutiny, were treated in the same manner as boy s. It was
all very well to talk of the sailors fighting for honour and glory,
but no man would be found to accept war on such terms

every British sailor fought for his prize-money, not his glory—
(Oh, oh)—he did not mean glory in the way Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite interpreted it, but he repeated, that while
British seamen fought for that honour which all men felt a
pride in receiving, yet if it were not for the hope of a fair and
more tangible reward, they welsh' not fight at all. For these
reasons he should vote for the motion of his Gallant Friend near
him.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. A. SMITH thanked the Gallant Commodore near
him for the ability and vigour with which he pleaded the sailor's
cause, and thought the latter had been the victims of the
special pleading of the Government.
Mr. H. BERKELEY thought there must be some gross
injustice committed on the sailors of this country, when 80,000
of them were to be found at the present moment serving in the
navy of America. Who was it but British sailors took the
Macedonia and the Java, and fought in a thousand other ac •
tions in the service of a foreign foe ?—( Hear. )
Captain PECHELL advocated the claims of the naval
part of the forces employed in the Chinese war, and coriterded
that the officers and seamen were entitled to compensation for
the property they had lost, and the diseases, from fever and
other sources, which they had suffered in the inclement climate
of the country in which they had been employed. The Bri-
tish seaman had been put on a lower level than the Indian
sepoy by the mode of distribution of prize money. 420,0001.
did appear a large sum as belie money to be distributed, but
it was not generally known how many had to participate in it.
He considered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad not
treated the motion of his Hon. Friend with sufficient courtesy.
Sir R. PEEL said he could rot cenceive anything more
dangerous or of evil tendency than the motion proposed by the
Hon. Gentleman opposite. If the House acted on the prin-
ciple of the Hon. Gentleman the presumption would be that
the Government had no duty to perform towards the country ;
and it might almost be supposed that the Ministry had been
appropriating the money to their own private purposes. The
commercial community had more reason to complain than the
army or navy had. It was a most disagreeable duty for the
Ministry to refuse any of the claims ; and nothing was more
easy than for a public man to be liberal. No one could estimate
more highly than lie (Bir R. Peel) the services which bad been
rendered by the army and navy in China. The services which
had been rendered were of a most peculiar nature. The in.
structions given to the commander were, that they should try
to make an impression on the Chinese before taking possession
of the land. and preserve and protect the commercial interests
as far as possible. The sum to be obtained from the Chinese
was partly to be expended in discharge of the debts of the Hong
merchants, and the remainder to be applied to the disburse-
ment of the expenses of the war. The sum that had been ac.
tually paid for remuneration of services was 420,0001., which
was known by the name of „batta" money. He would con-
tend that the subject of remuneration for services of that nature
ought to be left to the discretion of the Crown's prerogative,
with which it would be dangerous to interfere.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that the speech of the Hon. and
Gallant ,lember had been most completely answered by the
Ministry. He must say that the motion before the House, if
pressed to a division, would be a very unwise proceeding.
After so liberal a reward as 420,0001. offered by the Crown for
the naval and mility services rendered, no further remuneration
cuekt to be made.
Lord PALMERSTON said the motion of his Honour-
able and Gallant Friend was not without example. In
the case of Navarino a similar motion had been made,
and eventually a larger remuneration than had been
pbeerefneetlyawjuasrtdifiedab.
le. He ought
the.ofereiaglti innt
ghaslyopf r edpeuer proposed
oemsehoditeihonhmawdiagsht sometimes overawe the liberal
feelings of the Government ; but he could assure the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite that the Ministry had not exercised
the liberality of the Crown to a sufficient extent. It was all
very well to say that sailors and soldiers were led to acts of
bravery out of pure patriotism ; at the same time there was
no doubt that the expectation of prize-money added a very
great zeal to their actions, and they looked forward to it as
their particular reward. There were certain instances of
suffering and severity of service which were not rewarded by
prize-money—such as disease in a foreign climate. But
when in actual battle the sailor or soldier exerted himself,
he did consider that he was entitled to some remuneration.
The Crown had admitted that in this case there existed an
actual right to remuneration. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had explained that batta was employed as a reward
because part of the forces employed were engaged in the Indian
service. But if he was not mistaken, in the case of Rangoon,
where Indian troops had been employed, batta prize-honey
also had been given. In the present case sufficient remune-
ration had not been given. The payment of the petty officers,
as compared with those pail after the battle of Navarino, had
been small. It had been one instruction to the officer in com-
mand to keep the junks in port, but they were found so nume-
rous that there was nothing to be done with them after they
had been taken, and therefore their value could not be added to
the prize-money of the force. 'The original instructions of the
Government were, that the value of the opium was to be
ascertained, the debt of the Hong merchants to be found out,
and the expenses of the war, to be sent into the
Chinese Government for defraying. Sir Henry Pottinger sug-
gested that he should demand one round sum for all these
items. He proposed 5,000,000/, and he ( Lord Palmerston)
approved of it. The sum which was obtained was not pro-
portioned to the expenses of the war when 'the treaty was
signed. If the Government accepted a sum, although some-
what short of the sum originally demanded, it was no answer
to the demand of His Hon. Friend for sufficient remuneration
The
accordings sum of oft
042tb0e,0o0b0j/e.
object
twfaosr
whicharge,
butf or thesums
forcesei ere
they might be employed. He believed that Lord Stanley
wrote a letter in January, 1843, in which he said, that al-
elmarigileoy or small
al-
though the reward for services of this nature would be reserved,
great evil arose from the too frequent interference of this House
on matters of this kind. The great moral effect which had been
promoted in the Chinese empire had arisen from the good re-
gulation and order of the military and navy employee. This
war had led to great commercial advantages, and it did seem
to him that the Government would be justified in making some
extra allowance. He thought that the Government were
making a niggardly allowance, and, from experience, he would
say that it was the best way, in every case, to
give a fair and liberal allowance for services rendered.
There was in the public of this empire a generous feeling to do
ample justice to all who bad well served their country. They
opposed a wasteful expenditure of the public money, but they
were not niggardly towards those who had done th© State good
service. He hoped the subject would command the most seri-
ous attention of the Government.
Captain HARRIS said that no doubt the duty imposed was
a most ungrateful one, when questions of this kind were consi-
dered. As a justification of the conduct of the Government
at the close of the Chinese war, in withholding due reward to the
troops that had been engaged in it, he might state that at that
time there was a deficiency of 2,000,0001. in the Exchequer.
At the present time there was a surplus, and he hoped the Go-
vernment would now take the claims of these men into their
serious consideration.
Captain PLUNIRIDGE briefly defended the officers who
had been eugsged in the Chinese war, from the attacks which,
he alleged, had been made upon them, in reference to the
prize money.
Sir J. DUKE deplored the mercenary character which had
been attributed to the troops and seamen who had been en-
gaged in the war, by several Gallant Officers who had taken
part in the debate. He believed that the forces of this country
required no such stimulus to action. He hail been in the ser-
vice himself, and stood and fought by Lord Exmouth, and he
always found the glory and honour of England sufficient to en-
courage the seamen to do their duty.—(Hear, hear.) He would
oppose the motion.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For Captain Berkeley's motion
Against it
Majority against the motion.. ...... ---4 l
IRISH CHURCH PROPERTY.
Mr. EVELYN DENISON proceeded to call the attention
of the House to the management and disposal of that part of the
property of the Irish Church vested in the hands of the Irish
Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE was not prepared to give
any answer beyond the fact that the funds which had passed
into the hands of the Irish Church Commission had been ap-
plied in the most unobjectionable manner. To satisfy Hon.
Members, however, he had no objection that further inquiry
should be made as to the particular manner in which the money
raised had been applied.
Mr. HENLEY said that some years ago the church pro-
perty was stated to be at a certain amount, but since then,
some how or other, it had nearly all disappeared. The party
opposite had put their hands upon it, and it vanished ; and he
feared what remained would disappear in the same way.
Lord BERNARD said he could speak from personal expe-
rience that many of the churches of the connty in which he re-
sided were in a most disgraceful state ; and he also knew that
in that united diocese, Divine service was performed in school.
houses for want of churches.
plbnyvaaeoniniNtsdaolhe
IsitirrtheoitsenghrArradeal.rstti.
indifference
result,
tldehtr°En:etcAl
vreCeitiees
FREMANTLE
undeNNl
least
sTorntrl
fLdeEta
thel
,EsaLu
that
Ireland,
Ldeb,s:eas
aglahrhegi
unfortunately,
of
othi
htudt there
lerdteehr
ai
aweresnvrs.rkeusarufrnsrreti
gooehseraneClimisTi
tmooeuimninnf
ea
arrangement of
thet
mntoAAeyfar manner
shmhmni
ueucobbrrrrneiceirhhnd-ss
which such things were managed in Ireland, he could expect
property in Ireland.
opposite that, so far from this matter having been regarded
that it had been regarded with very great anxiety. He wished
to make this observation before the discussion on the question
closed.
Mr. GROGAN said, he knew of an instance of a church
in the neighbourhood of Dublin having been taken down, under
the impression that it would be rebuilt; but though the church
had been down for the last six years, up to this des, it had
never been rebuilt.
The House then went into Committee of Supply.
On 32,300/. being proposed for law expenses,
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he should wish to know why
there should be seven lawyers connected with any Bill ? He
thought also that their salaries were lunch too high. He
wished to know what their duties were to be.
Mr. CARDWELL said that when their responsibilities were
understood by the Honourable Gentleman, he would not think
that their remuneration was too great.
The vote was then carried.
,ruvenil was
juvenile offenders in the Isle of Wight.
proposed for the expenses incurred
The sum of 30,0001. was then proposed to defray the salaries
of the officers connected with the Insolvent Debtor's Court.
The vote was agreed to.
by The
Agreed to.
The next vote was for a grant of a slim not less than 16,000/.
the sum
0
reform of 18f°
nor more than 18,0001 • for the expenses
of the Model Prison at
Pentonville.
Mr. WILLI • of ANIS complained the excessive
charge of the
maintenance of the prisoners, which at noutited to 331. per head
per annum. NI said
Sir JAMES GRAHA. that the Hon. Member was
mistaken; the expense was no more than three shillings per
head per week, and not only there been a great improve-
ment in the eventual effects h
of punishment, but in point of
economy the public had gained considerably. The expense of
maintaining the prisoners was far less than that of transporta-
tion,onvicts came out of
and the c prison much improved and
bettermembers of society.
Mr. WILLIANIS had no objection that the morals of the
attended
prisoners should be
such to, but he questioned the pro.
su
priety of giving them be
much
trades as shoemakers, &c. Ile
considered that it would better to teach them agricul-
tural occupations.
wished to k
Mr. HINDLEY
,_a.n
andnow what was the amount of
salary received by the chaplain medical officer ?
said that
Mr. CARDWELL the chaplain received 4001.
assistant chaplain 2001.
per year ; the . ; the medical officer
d nt surgeon 100/.
3001.. and the rest e
rht thismonstrous.—( A laugh.) At
that rate the chaplain had head for every inmate.
After a few words from Mr. Hawes, Mr. Ewart, Sir James
Graham, and Mr.
Waklee, the vote was agreed to.
28,118/. was proposed to defray the expenses of 111ilbank
Penitentiary.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to this vote, unless an expiate-
e sum exceeding the
tion were given of th amount acceded last

year.
as
idofthtahte en
y,
was caused by the ap-
iary,
instead of unpaid
commissioners, and no one could tbubt that the addition of
2001. a year to the salary of each would ensure better officers.
-SnitrjGt RliiAel‘i
poimen ofA inspectors
Mr. }UNI)LEY said he never. had been in prisons ge-
nerally,
but
had been often MilbankPenitentiary—( Lend
laughter)—and could testify to the admirable system adopted
there ; he wished, however, to ask the reason of the vote ex-
ceeding its predecessor, even alter the suns allotted to the
inspectors.

Sir .1. GRAHAM replied that the rema'ning sum was ter•
(pitied for the purchase of books.
The vote with the following were then agreed to:-
4,0'2'1. for criminal lunatics.
8,172/. for the prisons and prison hoards in Scotland.
12,8101. to defray the law expenses in Scotland.
69,1091. to defray the expenses of criminal prosecutions and
other law charges in Ireland.
On the next vote, which was 33,0001. to defray the charges
of the Dublin police force,
Mr. HINDLEY complained that this vote had increased
annually.
After a short discussion the vote was agreed to ; as also
were 7,2671. for defraying the expenses of the convict depot
in Dublin ; 6,0001. for erecting a prison for criminal lunatics
in Dublin ; 62,350/. for defraying the expenses of convict
hulks at home and abroad; and 250,0001. for defraying the
expenses and superintendence of convicts in New South Wales.
Mr. WILLIAMS would like to know what description of
convicts they were that cost the public so large a sum.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the labour of convicts of the
wcrst class was mostly unproductive. Many of them worked
in chains. There was another class of convicts more indus-
trious and well-conducted, and which did not cost the country
so much.

Mr. EWART said the free people of Van Dieman's Land
were indignant at the mode in which that colony had been
treated, and which had ei,seminated the seeds of vice and
anarchy throughout that island. The inhabitants were now
preparing a petition against the rotation system, as it was called
—a system, in troth, of probationary vice.
Sir J. GRA HAM said, if the interests of the colony were
alone consulted, he could not say that the present system was a
Loud one, but it was quite plain they could not, in this country,
accommodate the 5,000 convicts who were, on an average,
annually transported, in the same manner as the prisoners in
the Pentonvi.le prison, which was only capable of admitting
300 or thereabouts.

The vote was then agreed to.
75.000/. was next proposed to defray the expenses of public
education in Great Britain for 1845, which was postponed after
a short discussion.
2,006/. was next proposed to defray the salaries of professors
in Oxford and Cambridge, wh.ch was agreed to.
4,5461. was proposed to be applied to the support of the Lon-
e!on University.
Mr. WA KLEY advccated the establishment of a school of
chemistry worthy of the country. He referred to the opinions
of Professor Leibig on the subject, who had stated that the
science of chemistry in this country was in a miserable con-
dition.
Sir R. PEEL considered that there was no necessity for the
establishment of such a school, in addition to those already in
existence. In the Universities of London and Edinburgh
sufficient provision was made for giving efficient instruction
in the science.

The vote was then agreed to.
300/. was next proposed and agreed to for the Irish
Acalemy.
7,3501. was agreed to for the Scotch Universities.
3001. was agreed to for the London Hibernian Academy.
5,550/. was proposed and agreed to for the Royal Dublin
Society.
2,110/. was proposed for the Royal Belfast Institution, but
after a short discussion it was withdrawn.

52,320/. was next proposed to defray the expense of re-
bidding and augmenting the British Museum.
The vote was then agreed to, as were also 52,050/. for the
building of the British Museum ; 6,2171 for the Collections of
the British Museum ; and 1,5001. for defraying the expenses
of the National Gallery.
8,850/. was proposed for the Museum of Economic Geology
in Dublin. . . .

Mr. HAMILTON congratulated the House upon the gen-
tleman who had been appointed to superintend this ingiiitution.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said he fully concurred in the ob-
servations of the Hon. Member opposite.
The vote was then agreed to.
5,839/. for the observations at the Cape of Good Hope and
Van Dieman's Land was next agreed to.

The House then resumed.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANY'S BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
THE GAMES AND WAGERS BILL,

Mr. HAWES presented a petition from the licensed vic-
tuallers against this Bill.
The Bill was adjourned till Monday.
SLAVE TRADE (BRAZIL) BILL.
Sir R. PEEL said, that in 1836. Brazil entered into an
agreemeet with this country to declare that the slave-trade
should be abolished, and that all vessels detected in that trade
after that time and taken, should be declared guilty of an act
of piracy.
Mr. HUTT did not think that the means proposed by the
Bill were sufficient for the purposes for which it was intended.
After some discu.sion the Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed on Monday next.
The Municipal Districts (Ireland) Bill was read a second
time.

....
The Land Revenue Act Amendment Bill was read a third
time anti passed.
The report on the Bonded Corn Bill was ordered to be re—
ceived, after some oblations made by Mr. Hutt, in conse-
quence of the lateness of the hour, as he had been many nights
watching the Bill, which was neither a pleasant nor a healthful
occupation.
The report on the Excise Duties on Spirits (Channel
Islands) Bill was received.
The Drainage (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at half-past two o'clock.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES

(YESTERDAY.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.
WEST LONDON LINE,
The Committee having adjourned from Monday last to this day,
in order to give time for an arrangement between counsel to be
matured, met this morning at half.past eleven, Lord Brougham in
the chair. The other members preterit were the Earl of Scarbo-
rough and Lords Hawarden, Sondes, and Gage.
Mr. AUSTIN stated that an agreement had been made t• the effect
that a clause relating to the tolls should be omitted.
Lord BaoconAm was doubtful whether such an omission would
be considered as an alteration in a money clause; if so, the Bid
would be thtuwil out. The Meiotic. of the other !louse were
very capricious, and it was impossible to say what they would con.
rider a violation of their privileges.
Mr. Thompson, Secretary to the West London Company, was
then called to prove certain transactions at a meeting of the Direc-
tors of the Company, with reference to a clause to which some ob-
jections had been made.
It having been agreed that the Bill should be reported to time
House this evening by Lord Brougham, the Committee rose shortly
before twelve o'clock.