The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-11 00:00:00

eeetaed and said that he would do a great deal towaris r wages to fall, and if so whether they were prepared to
the amusement of the people: But there was something take the consequence? No such question had ever been
beyond the recreation of the people required, There put as to whether they were willing to chance it—for if
were other elements required for the well-being it had, the answer would be—" we are willing to
of the people. The third reason for interference chance it, because we believe wages will not tall."
by. the Legislature was that, since the first discussion of He had put the question in the manufacturing districts,
this subject, a statement had been made public by the and the answer had invariably been, if they aid believe
master manufacturers themselves, that three-fifths of I that wages were to fall, they would have been the first
the persons employed in manufactures were females. I to oppose the measure.—(Hear, hear.) And why ? The
This he thought was a very powerful reason for inter-, measure was simple enough : at present the people were
ference with adult labour by the Legislature. The only able by their labour to obtain that which was
- principal argument used against this interference was nothing bond a comfortable subsistence—certainly not
that iemuild *nee the wages of the labourer, and the that' subsistence which a man would consider luxury.
arglrelent'lised by the Government was, that if any It was a life of hard work, and it was hardy paid. He
farther restriction were to be placed on the manufac- sympathieed with them, and he wished their condition
turers they would be driven out of the foreign market. was ten thousand degrees better. But that was not the
He would ask with what decency did this argument- question here the question was, could the House make
come from the Government?--(Hear, hear.) Had this ,it better. The labourers wished to work for the means
never been stated in former debates, and passed over by of subsistence, and they were unwilling to forego any
the Government without notice? How often had this portion of those means of subsistence by so many hours
fact been urged by the gentlemen who advocated of idleness: They heard much of the advantage to be
the repeal of the corn-laws ?—(Hear, hear.) It derived by the people from those two hours of leisure,
was now generally admitted, that the great bulk of the in their moral habits and manner of living. But they
manufacturing classes themselves were desirous of might depend upon it, there would never be any im-
change—that they were sensible of the evils under provement in the morality of the people, if they di-
which they laboured. The Hon. Member for Oldham minished their wages. Diminish their wages, and at
said he specifiCally put the question at a public meeting tha same time they would destroy every chance of im:
of operatives, " Are you prepared to submit to a re- proving their morality. He was not there to say that
duCtion of wages, in order to work a less number of the condition of the people was such as he could desire ;
hours ?" and they answered they were. His impres- but he was there to say that their nostrum was a
sion was, that the Government should receive this ques- piece of mischievous quackery, and which, under the
tion as a whole, and take into especial account the pro- pretence of doing good, would act as a mischievous
bable improvement in the condition of the labouring po- and detestable opiate ; they were doing all they could to
pulation. If they would legislate on those considerations, spoil and deteriorate the condition of the people, under
he believed there would not be the slightest danger to the pretence of alleviating their misery. Before they
be apprehended 'to manufactures. A great deal had came to anything like reasoning legislation, they
been said about the wickedness of exciting the feelings must do more than lay as their ground for doing so great
of the people, and they had been cautioned, in solemn misery on the part of the people. They could go to Ire-
tones of warning, against ,raising expectations which land, and they could ask the same question. What did
were doomed to disappointment. That sort of danger they see there ? A labouring population sufferingunder
might be urged in almost every change—there was ge- greater misery than it was pretended was suffered by the
nerally more or less of risk. He had no fear of such labouring population of this country. And lie wanted to
danger—(Hear, hear)—but was there no danger to know where was the gentleman so full of humanity on
be apprehended on the other side ? Did they incur no the other side of the House, who had listened to the
risk, by refusing to legislate ? Was there no counter- statements that had bees made, and who had suddenly
balancing evil? Whether was it more dangerous to expect turned round, and said it was in the power of the House
nothing from legislation or everything from it?—(Hear.) of Commons to alleviate the miseries of the people of Ire-
Was it not injudicious to allow a feeling of sickening land. Were they prepared to listen to these statements?
disgust and hopelessness to take possession of the minds Then how black was their guilt that they had done
of the people—was it right to encourage a beliefthat the nothing to alleviate these evils ? Why, had they not
Legislature would only consult the interests of the upper before—at least those who had more than a mere pre-
ciseses—of the landlords—and that the moral and phy- tense to the name of legislators—(Laughter)—attempted
sisal condition of the people would not occupy their at.. to do this, or told them that the distress of Ireland could
tention?—(Hear.) When a great practical measure was not be alleviated by any Act of Parliament ? If he
brought forward was it wise to exhibit so much indiffer- (Mr. Roebuck) by obtaining statements of unheard of
ence? These observations did not apply to the Factories misery among the peeple of Ireland, had demanded that
Bill alone, but to the questions of education, and to an a portion of the land should be taken away from the
enlarged field of employment, as if these measures were landlords of Ireland for the purpose of alleviating that
beyond the cognisance of Parliament, and as if they distress, why, would they not have said that
would say "Go and shift for yourselves."—(Hear, hear.) he was a madman, that he was a fool—or worse
The people would say that they were left unprotected by than a fool—a desperate knave ? Yet that
the Legislature, although they had to bear such heavy was a distinctly analagous case to that of
burdens of taxation.—(Cheers.) the Noble Lord opposite. He had painted the whole-
Mr. ROEBUCK said there was still more danger in sale, misery, or what he considered the misery, of the
telling the people they must expect everything from manufacturing districts. He (Mr. Roebuck) charged the
Legislatures. than from trusting to themselves.—(Hear, Noble Lord with gross exaggeration; he had only read
hear.) It was the most dangerous thing for the peeple one half of the evidence. lie charged him with mis-
- to be told by anybody ?ft whom they had confidence that stating and misrepresenting evidence; he charged him
the rate of wages was to be regulated by Act of Parlias before the assembled Commons of England with a total
' ment. The rate of wages, as attempted to be regulated and gross disregard of the evidence he had put into
- by the Noble,Lordewas 'wholly futile. Its only object, his hands:- He was not there to make any underhand
if curried into effect, would be step by step to increase charges.—(A laugh.). He was not there to question the
the number of the labouring population, and to create a Motives of the Noble Lord; he 'spoke only of his acts.
IoW rate of Wages.—(llear, hear.) Let not his Hon. and He contended he was dealing with evidence which he
'.earned Friend meet him with any taunts of humanity-- had groisly misapprehended, and that he had misrepre
• let lite not turn round, and, after painting the picture -rented facts.—(Oh, oh.) The facts were not as he had
of Misery in its strongest colours, say—" Do you con- Statedthem. That labouring population of which he
template that with eatisfaCtion ?" "Are 'you, or are i had given so lamentable an account, was the class the
you; riot:prepared to legislate for this misery ?" He farthest removed from misery and degradation. He
acknowledged the horror of the picture, but he quer-, would do all that could be done to better the condition
the rentedY.
,The remedy proposed, and he of the people. :- He would secure them an education
safcrit'advisecily,wia art aggrafation of the eiit.--L:(Hear.) based on the broad principles of Christtan legislation.
• His Rob: atil-Liained' Friend; and every 'Honourable Heevould do all they could do and all they ought to do,
- blether 'Who had 'spoken on the subject that night, I but he contended 'that no legislative enactment could
had 'Contrived to 'escape from the real' question—they raise the rate of wages.' -Those who endeavotired to
Confined thernfelVes to an- exaggeration of the mischief, i limit the hours of labour did in reality establish a
but - did not point out the effects of the remedy. The j minimum of wages, and would give the labouring
Noble Lord,- the Member for Sunderland, indulged in a classes a right to demand a fixed rate of wages for less
day dream of et new era of enlightened legislation—he ; work. They would have the right, and having the
• magnaeimeuely termed it bold legislation. Let him right would enforce it; and if they did enforce it, adieu
(Mr. Roebuck) give it another term—rash legislation. at once to all the means of sustaining the population
" Fooli'rush in—" He would not finish the quota- of the country by labour. They would then behold
tion.—(Great laughter.) He wanted to know what was I a deteriorated people; then they would learn the con-
the object of the_Noble Lord's (Lord Ashley's) proposal sequences of their misplaced humanity; they would see
—what were the grounds of his interference ? He had a people made miserable from their injudicious inter.
challenged the Noble Lard and his supporters on this- ference, and the labourers would learn too late the un-
subjectleefore; but he 'had had no answer. His Hon. happiness of having listened to their ignorance, and the
and Learned Friend acknowledged that interference House would have learned too late how fatal and mis-
with labour ought to be an exception to the general ehieeous is the acting on insufficient and ill-digested
rule. The principle was to let things go OA according evidence.
• to the ordinary causes which regulated ordinary con- Mr. FERRAND said the Hon. and Learned Member
t?hcts between man and man. On this subject he had had made a speech attacking the motives of those who
been
;grievously misrepresented on a former occasion. supported the Ten Hours' Bill, and boasting that he was
• What he said was,' that the general rule respecting the friend of the working classes. He could tell him
contracts ahould be to let those persons enter that the working classes considered him one of
into-them who, being most interested, were naturally their bitterest enemies. They had assisted him
most alive teethe difficulties incidentally connected with in procuring the liberation of Mr. Oastler from prison.
them, and who were best ea:ciliated to form a judg- They were anxious for his release, that he might
went of those incidents. That was the rule ; and his aid them in obtaining the measure he advocated to-
' BOn. and Learned. Friend said he acknowledged the night. The working classes had advocated the measure
jussice of the doctrine; the departure from it he admitted themselves for twelve years, and it was a question they
ought ID be only the• exception. He took it that all would continue to agitate till they had succeeded?. It
' the lahouetig popultision of this country, according had been said by one party in that House that they
to 'the general sule, entered into contracts with the ought not to interfere with labour—that the masters and
master for the best-wages they could obtain for their men were free agents, and they had no right to inter-
labour. But the Noble- Lord said he wonld show them • fere with the contracts they chose to make. There was
the cause for their interference. He met the Noble then the proposition of the Government, and then the
Lord, and slid, - Very well ; but you must point out the ten hours' proposition. With regard to the la-
• circumstances that form the exceptional rule. But bourers being free agents, he begged of the
what did he show?-and now he would challenge an House to recollect the engagements entered
s answer to' the statement.. The Noble Lord stated that 1 into by some manufacturers of Manchester with
the labouring,popelation in the manufacturing districts I the Poor-law Commissioners. They proposed to
were' so congregated together that they were draw a number of labourers from the agricultural into
Mere alive to the influence of publicity and responsibility the manufacturing districts, and he had an important
than any other portion of the working classes. Ile return in his hand, showing what the result of that had
would•tell the Noble Lord that the factory population I ken. The result was laid on the table of the House on
were better off, better paid, better fed, better clothed, the 12th of May, 1843. It showed that 4,228 labourers
and better lodged thin any other portion of the labour- I
were induced to leave the agricultural districts under a
ing population.-'-(Bear, hear.) - Nov,' he defied the promise of their condition being improved. Out of this
Nobk..,Lord, to doily that position. He defied them to number there were several mothers, who had only from
shoeueleeeee any one reason for interfering with 4s. 6d. to ss. 6d. a week. There were twenty-six fathers
* fecteipteD6o'ee -Sextet the one of easiness to interfere who received wages from ss. to 9s. a week ; seventy-two
The:celitidit of the factory- labourer was who received from 9s. to 12s. ; fourteen who received
fepeat4,:etiari any Other part of the population from 12s. to 155., and• two who received from 15s. to 20s.
OtOel.ritirtkklPigdO,M,, ,required an answer.— Instead of their wages of labourbeing increased they were
(Criei ord.* (WM-, /fee ieVetated--- that required an an- reduced below the standard in th districts they had
sWer,• end: till-thg'innieelty-mengers would not drive left. In 1841 the Hon. Member for Stockport, the Hon.
lihn from his tASitiOn. Were they worse off—he said and Learned Member for Bolton, and both the Members
better? No*, ;they would never drive him from that , for Sheffield declared the manufacturing labourers of
pOsition. The .Noble Lord, the Member for Sunder- Manchester were existing on a day ; and the
lend had mystified his arguments, and talked a great of I Member for Manchester declared. there were many in-
what might be done. He regretted that the Right stances of persons pawning their clothes to redeem their
Honourable Baronet had invaded the principle of bedding for the. night, and pawning their bedding in the
interference with labour, and the Honourable and morning to redeem their clothes. He would not now
Learned Member had sarcastically taunted the weary the House by entering into the details of the op-
. Hone Member for Nottinghamshire with voting three pressions inflicted on the working classes by the truck-shop
times for. the Noble Lord, and now about to vote with system. The only means of rescuing them was by pa..sing
the.GovernMent, but the HOU. Gentleman ought to turn a Ten Hours' Bill, and they were determined to hare it
to his. left and right, and there he would find abundant I whether their wages were reduced or not. They
examples of such inconsistency. Those who kept a studied the question in all its bearings, and he was
glase-house: should not throw stones. He should satisfied two-thirds of the adult labourers in the menu-
not. ebe se ready with his sarcasm when t facturing districts were more competent to judge of the
trhose , friends . were around him:—(flee,r.) Ho question than three-fourths of those whom he now
honoured the boldness of the Hon. Gentlemen oppo- addressed. He held in his hand an account of no less
site, who had dared to oppose this system of " humanity than sixteen individuals who appeared before the mag,is-
mongering. —they had stood out against
;it in' spite of trates of Manchester asking their aid to remove them to
all temptations lute out-both by frieuds and foes—from I the agricultural districts from which they had been
fQes that would wish to put them down, in consequence- 'kidnapped He did not want to extenuate the conduct
of dieaffection in their own ranks, and of friends whoj of the landed proprietors who lent their aid to
shot their shafts from aside at the Riglit Hon. Baronet this system, and he thought the conduct of the
Diet() return' to the question before the House. Had Poor-law Commissioners ought to be reprobated.
they in any way laid the grounds to. Show why they Those men represented their case to the magis-
, should interfere with the free exercise of labour; "or if trates, and the magistrates expressed their in-
so, had they proved that it would benefit -the labouring dignation at the mode in which they had been
- man ? The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland I treated, and said that those who caused it ought to
&ad, threatened them with the consequences of rejecting be prosecuted. The late Member for Kendal was one of
the Proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for-Dor- the magistrates who presided on the bench, and he ad-
setshire—he said, beware how you disregard the condi- vised that Mr. Muckeridge, who was employed as the
tion of the labourirw population. He (Mr. Roebuck), agent between the Poor-law Commissioners and the
as well as many on that side of the House, said, when manufacturers, should be' called, when it was provided,
speaking
,of the wishes of the labouring population, • that measures should be taken to send them home. He
-- that.,. all. they wanted was a due and. a fair did not wish to„ent r into many details of this kind—
representationHe was not now about (" Hear, hear, and " Question, question.") He would
in that House.
•all,but that he was
to be alarmed by the Noble Lord's sudden alarm at not have spoken on the subject at
popular demonstrations, the more so when he recol- requested to do so, and if Hon. Gentlemen heard him
lected the Noble Lord's decided opposition to the out, he would not detain them very long. It had been
strongly-expressed wish of the people on the subject of said, that the mothers remained at home to take care
thefranchise. He (Mr. Roebuck) should confess that of and provide for their families. The reports of the
he had such respect for the opinions of the people, that factory inspectors showed, that instead of remaining at
ho did net want to take them second-hand from any home to attend to their household duties, they were obliged
person, no matter who he might be. his desire was, to Work in the mills, and sacrifice their lives to obtain
teat the people should have the power of sending their the means of subsistence for their families. In the
repreeentatives to that House to. speak their opinions, autumn of 1842, the working classes in the menu-
. am pot to take the pseudo humanity of any man. When factoring districts took the advice of the Hon. Member for
lie,said this, he did not mind also stating, that when he Halifax. They were told that if they would better their
heard .the Noble Lord the Member for'Sunderland tulk condition they would refuse to work, they would lesson
- eonseeeeeees; he eueld atl'ord to treat the warning their toil. They accordingly acted on the advice,
• with tudiffereeces He certainly could not at all under- and in rags they traversed the country, and it was
eAandeebaarguments of the Noble Lord, the. Member for not until the military were called out and blood was
SUriderialla 7-- in fact, 'he Could not glean any spilt that the majesty of the law was asserted. The
meaning
eet, any one syllable Of that Noble- working classes would not be satisfied with any ram-
.- ,Lord., "speech---(Hear and laughter.) •In sa:ying this, sure, but that of the Right Hon. the Member for
he begged to state meant no disres ect to the Noble Dorsetshire. At present the hours of work for young
from, for l Ppersons
both.lo. ws.posiona le usually attached much respec.t between the ages of thirteen and eighteen were
i . character and the character of his sixteen and a half, while the hours for sleep, recreation,
e ; but, 4- • 4,-136-eente case he certainly; could not &c., only amounted to seven and a hen' ; and mothers
setiffout source he gained 'his knoWleil e Was it of families worked seventeen hours and a half per day,
fr°l4 t°6) Mar4l*VV`;l.ld" of Mr. laugh.)Owee?—(Ag.. 'and had only six hours and a halt' for sleep and recrea-
-49(100 if
~the, Noble Lord refiect4d cloe' el Y, he would - tion. If then, they refused this measure to the people,
claw, himself something
ti in the light Of*. a plagiarist of the day would come when the working classes would
thee,eisionarlee
likeemanh"%greai master of political extract it from their unwilling hands.
e°n"n* 4n- that
IdiP3,e e was about to introduce 3lr. MUNTZ said there was one circumstance connected
seeee. pew and, be scheme of legislation,—(Laughter ) • with this debate, which appeared to him to have been
• 1101 r. Roebuck.) asserted bohlly Aar .prices could not lost sight of by all, by the lawyers and the philosophers.
Jew ,eire. pecouet. of the ruinous foreign 'competition That was whether any vote of that House could prevent
tele country had to etrees the the evils so much complained of. Eis opinion was that
-wih iswhieb
with Englanee,
of' -u:l.ahour,
rile,
row,
therew.as .nrnoe'nvdottehceounlidghptreHveunut.uthaorsueneetvils ; and he would recom-
- Ouneties competing
I , no,.inter::ereee' theh righ%tisth
price could not prevent taken place.
thesefacts comp :led the English in their hands,- and of that pow
to concede
peoplethat which he
e. • Wee :tincreas.:n knowledgeerTthheeywould hbaedsure
• `CC tiad U 4.
t. the lowest possible price, and to make power
to
easeutfiteturers to sell ,beyond (niece', and it-they ascertainedte. They wanted a Ten Hours' Bill—that he
se thee laid() they were now
reduced,
enabled- to combat the effect by from themselves—and that they would
d,. ac4lu not go it:they hoped to - -
To this assertion of injurious toa trsattfike, which would be more
e competition of foreign markets. ,he given, and not He had 'asked everye than a Ten Hours' Bill
distinct arid direct answer shoulie .
restrictions had come. in contact
unone of the parties with whom he
• . loyeetgate generalities. If they imposed the -
VS'aS it prepared to put up with an
subject, whether they were
IlrOpoSed by the Measure of the Noble Lord, how
the Ten Hours' Bill tended to
of wages, in case
- elte*Arle that England could compete with other nations, .
the invariable ____w to produce such an effect,
switeeAto ito much: geeater facilities than she- possessed? ant,4" er was, .that they were.
The advareezes which they expe tel '
e • aleetecameaho.n.ext proposition, namely, that of falling c et to derive from
time, mare
- -.Mats-I:and it was ,proposed to 'keep them up by a re- having morei comfort, and more amusement,
count rb l•
• . elmottineoe, thee hours .of labour. He thought his Hun. would more t ian eaan ce the loss sustained
ar tear ) He believed the working-
. YoAght luteto peiet &Jade, more atten • to the authority classes were right in the view which they took of this
tion
el-44\404001a eteitte.the lights of political science. The .qttestion ; but though there
would eecessarily be some
it would not boat cilia *par,
M447l,ll)*ltteloreeleich he . should refer, was what he -small reduction in wages
se: kthetugett *row ' f • the benefit derived. Now, who were the parties
Crime o those who took part in tion to
'4ildSSiatll‘V -Abell- the question acted upon ? Why, they were only the women.
▪ t elepplesesiesee. - ;was put to to be being most suitable fur this
• eeee ete er they were prepared to chance It was said that women,
might be*, - ,e species always obtained a preference over the
ee.epelltislat Let , eueetereensZse.d:e But he would. of labour,
h mld do the required. quantity of
%r ether-theY t that this thy those people .metlePraelded they ,c _nee in ninny in.
measure would cause work, and that
the wen webe PolPpv+Av