The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-12 00:00:00

THE BUDGET.

The House having, on the motion of the CHAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, resolved itself into a
Committee of Ways and Means,
The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER
observed, that the period had at length arrived at
which the Supplies for the year having closed, it
became his duty to submit to the Committee his
view of the financial situation of the country for the
year. In so doing, he was by no means insensible
of the difficulties attendant on a first statement on
such a subject. Nor was he unaware of the peculiar
disadvantages under which he himself laboured on
the occasion. He could not forget that when the
subject was last brought under the consideration of
the Committee, it was introduced by a Right Hon.
Gentleman now, unfortunately, no more, to whose
brilliant talents and eminent public services, the
House had in the present Session, borne ample and
deserved testimony. He could not but recollect the
manner in which that Right Hon. Gentleman

adorned every topic on which he touched, and in
which he contrived to make the dry details which
such a statement rendered necessary, interesting by
his luminous treatment of them. He felt no humi-
liation in the avowal ; but he well knew that he
could not hope to produce on the Committee any
thing like a similar effect. He trusted, however,
that they would extend to him their indulgence,
while he endeavoured, simply and clearly, to lay before
them the financial statement of the year. As on the
one hand, he wordd not attempt to conceal from
them any thing of an unfavourable nature, so on the
other hand, he would refrain from exaggerating.
any thing which appeared to him to be preg-
nant with favourable consequences. In making
statements of this kind it had been usual upon former
occasions to lay before the House a statement of
the revenue and expenditure of the country for
several antecedent years, and to deduce from that
statement a calculation for the ensuing year. In
the present instance, he should depart from that
practice, and sconfine himself to a statement of the
revenue and expenditure for the last year, and from
that statement make his calculation as to the expected
revenue and expenditure of the present year. It
appeared from papers laid before that House, that
the total ordinary revenue of 1827 was 49,581,576/.
in addition to which there was received under
the arrangement which was made by the Bank,
known by the title of the Dead Weight, a sum
of 4,245,0001., and there was also, under the head
of extraordin-aries and miscellaneous, disbursements
to the amount of 660,000/.,making the total revenue
for 1827, 54,486,6571. The expenditure f0r.1827
consisted of the interest of the debt, excluding
the Sinking Fund, at the same time including
the interest on Exchequer Bills, amounting to
28,239,3171.-the sum issued by Trustees of Naval
and Military Pensions, amounting to 2,800,0004--
other permanent charges on the Consolidated Fund,
amounting to 2,200,0001., which, with other charges,
made the total expenditure for 1827, amount to
33,260,0001. But the supply voted for 1827, in-
cluding Army, Navy, and Ordnance, being
19,069,0001., the whole of which not having
been expended, the actual expenditure of 1827
did not exceed 52,690,6371., which dedu6ted from
the whole income of 51,500,000/. left a surplus
revenue above expenditure, excluding the Sinking
Fund, to the amount of 1,800,000/. • from that must
be deducted advances made to public works to the
amount of. 667,7931., leaving an actual surplus
revenue, above the expenditure, of 1,132,0001.
The House would therefore perceive that he
had considered the sum received on account of
Naval and Military Pensions, as income on the one
side, and the sum paid as expenditure on the other.
Such was the statement of the revenue and expendi-
ture for 1827, and of the surplus after the reduction of
the debt. He should now proceed to state his expec-
tations for 1828. It gave him great pleasure to
state that he anticipated increased revenue for
1828 above that of 1827 by no less a sum than
800,000/. In order to make out his calculation he
should call the attention of the Committee to the
revenue of the Customs, which, in 1827, had ex-
ceeded the revenue of 1826 by 600,000/. ; but, as
in the latter year the duties paid on the importation
of foreign corn amounted to 800,0001., and
as it was not likely, from the present state
lof the crops that we should have an importation of
that extent, he did not think that he had a right to
anticipate.that the revenue of the Customs next year
would equal that same revenue for 1827: be had made
his calculation by deducting from that revenue for
last year the sum of 800,0001. received as duty upon
corn. He should now proceed to state how he ex-
pected the other branches of the revenue of Customs
would compensate for the loss sustained by the non-
importation of corn. The branches of the revenue
on which he principally relied for making up the
deficiency occasioned by the absence of the duties on
foreign corn were, those on which the Customs'
revenue of last year was deficient ; namely, sugar,
rum, and brandy; and one article, wine, in the reve-
nue, arising from which, there was last year no
deficiency. The revenue from sugar fell off in
1827, as compared with 1826, by 300,000/. ; and
that for very obvious reasons. It was well known to
all who had attended to the subject, that there were
shorter crops than usual in the West Indies last
year; that necessarily raised the price of produce;
the augmentation of the price of produce diminished
the consumption; and the diminution of consump-
tion occasioned aslefalcation in the revenue. During
the present year this was altogether reversed. There
had been an improved crop ; and consequently an
increased consumption, and an augmented revenue.
Under these circumstances he felt justified in esti-
mating the increase of the Sugar Duties this year
at 200,0001. Nor was that matter of entire con-
jecture; for in the half of the year already elapsed,
the Sugar Duties, as compared with the correspond-
ing portion of 1827, were greater by 100,0001. In
the duty on Rum there bad, been another falling off
last year of 400,000/, as compared with the preceding
year. That also was capable of a satisfactory explana-
tion. In the commencement of 1826, heavy duties.
which until that period had diminished the consump-
tion of rum, were removed. The consequence was an
inordinate consumption of rum—a consumption much
greater than could lie expected in the succeeding
year. Of course, there was in 1827 a correspon-
dent defalcation in the revenue. But in the present
year he thought that calculating on the mean of the
two years, an increase of not less than 100,0001.
might fairly be calculated upon in the duties on rum.
In the brandy duties, a correspondent defalcation
had last year taken place, for reasons which he was
not competent to explain to the Committee. He
could only state the fact. He calculated, however,
that there would be an increase in the consumption
of brandy correspondent to the expected inerease in
the consumption of rum ; augmenting the revenue
by fifty thousand pounds. With respect to the
article of wine, to which he looked for a consi•
derable addition to tbss Customs' revenue, it
stood in a situation vest different from that of
the articles to which he had hitherto adverted. On
that there had been no diminution of revenue last
year. On the contrary, the duties on wine had
gone on regularly, gradually, and steadily, augmenting
from year to year. In .1827 they exceeded the
amount in 1826 by 200,000/. During the last six
months they had exceeded the duties in the corres-
ponding amount of last year by a large proportion.
He calculated, therefore, that the amount of the
duties on wine in the present year would exceed the
amount of last year by 150,000/. And he said this
with the more confidence; because he found, by the
returns of the last half year, that the amount already
exceeded that of the corresponding period of last
year by 100,000/. It was, therefore, not being too
sanguine to expect that the increase in the next half-
year over the last half-year of , 1827, would be
50,000/. Adding. all these sums together they
would stand thus :

Sugar .... £loo,ooo
Ruin and Brandy
Wine
1

£600,000
Which sum of 600,0001. being set against the re-
ceipts from the corn duties of last year, 800,0001.,
left a deficiency in the comparison between the last
and the present year of only 200,000/. The expec-
tation which he had thus formed from a view of the
duty derived from the articles in question last year,
was strengthened by the returns which he had re-
cently received of the revenue of Customs: By
those returns it appeared, that taking away the corn
duties, there had been an increase in the first six
months of the present year, as compared with the
' first six months of last year, of 300,0004 ; Le
thought it but fair, therefore, to calculate on a con-
tinuance of that increase during the last half of the
present year, and that would furnish the sum which
he expected. He would now proceed to the next
great branch of revenue, the Excise. He felt himself
justified in taking the amount of the Excise Duties
for the present year as higher than their produce had
been in 1827. In 1827 there had been a falling off in
the revenue of Excise, as compared with 1826, of
700,0001, But that was a deficiency which did

not alarm those who were conversant with financial
affairs. It was covered by one article alone—the
duty on malt. There were circumstances last year
which occasioned a great diminution in the manufac-
ture of malt; and, of course, a corresponding dimi-
nution of duty. This deficiency arose from the' di-
minution in the quantity of barley, owing to the
unsettled state of that trade, and the apprehension
and alarm entertained by the persons engaged in the
manufacture of that article. The alarm which was
felt, arose in consequence of the alteration of the
law, which prevented the persons of that trade oc-
cupying themselves at that particular period in
which a greater quantity Of malt used to be manu-
factured than at other times of the year. A larger
manufacture had since taken place, so as to supply
a very great augmentation of duty upon that article.
The duty already received on this article (at the
moment at which he was speaking) amounted to
more than 300,000/. But in order to enable the
House to have a more exact and satisfactory crite-
rion by which they could judge of the amount of
duty likely to be received on this article, he must
beg them to consider the large additional quantity of
malt brought to charge, .and upon which the duty
had not yet been received. He would take another
opportunity of mentioning the exact quantity; and
he would merely say, that it was such as to give a
confident expectation that the amount of the re-
venue would fully cover the deficiency which had
occurred in the course of the antecedent year. In
the last year there had been a deficiency in the
Excise revenue upon another very important ar-
ticle, although that deficiency had not been of an
amount coresponding with the preceding sum.-
I,le alluded to the article of beer, the consunaptiol
of which, in the period alluded to, had very ranch
decreased. The deficiency in that branch of revenue
had amounted to the sum of one hundred and seventy-
one thousand pounds. But he was happy to say, that
upon this article also the returns would prove that
within the present year there had been a very consider-
able increase of consumption. The natural consequence
was, that' not only in the present year, but in the
present quarter, he looked for a very considerable
augmentation of revenue. With respect to all the
other articles of Excise, it would be tedious to enu-
merate them and to go into details, and it might be
sufficient if he assured the House, that throughout
the whole of the United Kingdom, an uniform in-
crease of consumption had taken place, except in the
article of hops, and (we understood the Right Hon.
Gentleman to say) cider. This arose from the di-
minuti©n of duty upon orchards, and the postpone-
ment of the duty upon hops. This state of the re-
venue was in every respect a most complete and sa-
tisfactory proof of the advantageous state of every
branch of trade in the United Kingdom. The sum
total of the increase upon the Excise was 750,000/.
The increase upon two branches alone was
550,000/. The next source of revenue to which
lie would call the attention of the House was that
of stamps. Upon this head of receipts, he could
also have the pleasure of congratulating the House
upon a very considerable increase. It was obvious
that a duty which depended so much upon the value
of every species of property must necessarily improve
or decline in proportion as the value of property was
raised or depressed; and to this circumstance must
be attributed, in a great degree, the large increase
which has taken place (and on which he had calm-
lated) in the revenue of this department during the
last year. But lie should be doing a great injustice
to those who presided over the -Stamp Department,
if he did not, to a considerable degree, attribute the
augmentation of the revenue to the diligence, zeal,
and activity,with which they had applied themselves
to the discharge of their numerous and arduous duties,
and by which they had raised a revenue beyond
which, under other circumstances, it would have
been reasonable to calculate upon. He would take
the revenue under the head of Stamps to amount
to 200,0001., being short of that actually expected
at present, and which would acquit him of forming
imaginary_s-elrernes or unreasonable expectations.
The next branch of revenue was the Assessed
Taxes, under which he was happy to be able to as-
sure the House that there was a considerable in-
crease. The amount of the increase upon the As-
sessed Taxes received during the last half year, was
81,0001. But as the Assessed Taxes admitted so
much of variation, and as it was impossible to pro-
nounce whether they would progressively increase,
he would be content to take the augmentation at the
next half-year at 50,000/. He would take the minor
species of revenue at the same amount as the ante-
cedent year. He might perhaps be justified in tak-
ing them at a higher rate, but he was anxious upon
this, as upon every other occasion, to make no im-
prudent calculations, but rather to wait till the in-
crease had occurred. It was impossible to-do more
than mention the heads of revenue, on which the in•
crease was probable, and upon which he did. not
found any calculation. Whilst he mentioned the
augmentation of revenue as amounting to 800,0001.,
he must add, that that was the sum which he had
already stated to the Committee it was his intention
to add to the revenue of last year to form the esti-
mate of the present. In taking this sum of 800,000/.,
he must observe, that in the returns for the two
quarters already expired, there was an increase upon
the revenue of Great Britain alone in the proportion
of 856,000/. a sum exceeding that on which he had
ventured to calculate as the increase of revenue of
the United Kingdom for the whole year. But
the corn duty was received in the latter part of
the last year, and therefore some deficiency
extended itself to the subsequent quarters,
and which was to be made good by the sur-
plus of the preceding quarters. He should have
great pleasure in calling the attention of the House
to the revenue of Ireland, presenting, as it did, a
picture not less favourable than that which he had
'presented to the House of the other parts of the
United Kingdom. The revenue of Ireland, during
'a period corresponding with that in which he had
traded the augmentation of revenue in Great gri-
tain, had increased by 150,000/. He felt convinced
that he could fairly calculate upon the present reve-
nue of Ireland continuing, but he did not think it
right to hold out any expectations of a further aug-
mentation of receipts from that part of the kingdom.
The result of all he had i:tated to the House was,
ethoantsitdleiered totali° b
rese.enslole,3fBolr the year
He should ,01
this, as in the instance of the year 18,4, the sums
that were receivable on eecoaK of Naval and Mili-
tary Pensions,. being deficiencies of sums received
last year, in the October quarter. Upon this ac-
count be should add to the revenue of the present
year 3,082,500/. He should likewise add, under
the head of Extraordinary and Miscellaneous Re-
ceipts, 438,000/., making the total revenue of the
year 1828 to amount to 43,902,030/. Of the sum
of 438,0001„ 6Q,0001. had been received from the
East India Company.—[The Right Hon. Gentle,
man here concluded his lucid summary of the reve•
nue, but as he did us the favour of furnishing us
with a correct document, and as it appwra to us to
he of value to the public, we shall give it iu our
paper on Monday.l—He should now proceed with
the expenditure in the same order with tv.ipeilt "3
the year 1828. He should take the sum total of
the Interest of the Debt, e;:elool,m of the Sinking
Fund, but including the interest of Exchequer
Bills, At 25,038,000/, The sums to be paid to the
Fn
Trustees of Naval and-Military Pensions aceoun.tod to
1,092,8701. The total charged on she Consolidated
de,waaßsci22l,,,7oisOco:lolaoloL.
total income, left a
18,160,0461., being one million lass t.lau last year.
The total expenditure would amount
_t0.40,104,522/.
usTSheervA'icerms,y'airnNoauvlyit'QdOrtdo-
This being deducted frail the
certain .
surplus, ex 1 ofadvances, of 3, 97,508/,
From this balance, deducting 100,0001„ the dif-
eu the advances for Public Works and
ference betwc
the. sums .repaid, the.neat surplus of revenue over
would be 3,088,108/.
Expenditure In order to
form a comparison between the circumstances of the
last two years, this surplus of 1028 was to be set
against the surplus in 1827, which had amounted to
1,130,000/. This showed au improved surplus for
the present year over the last,. of nearly two mil-
, lions. Such being the surplus of the revenue over

the expenditure for the year 1828, it would be ob-
vious to every one that, if the House were to pro-
vide according to the terms at present prescribed by
law for the annual payment of the Sinking Fund,
the amount of surplus must be increased by little
short of three millions. If they were strictly to
comply with the law that existed on the subject, it
would appear that there were but two courses he
could possibly recommend to the House. Parlia-
ment had but one of two alternatives—either to add
to the burthens of the country by additional taxation
in order to raise the sum necessary to bring the sur-
plus-of income to the amount prescribed by law for
the Sinking Fund, or to follow the course which had
been pursued in former years. He need not say
that, in former years, when the surplus of revenue
over expenditure was deficient to meet the Sinking
Fund, the practice was to supply that deficiency by
loans, by increasing the debt, either funded or un-
funded. Thefirst of thesecourses—tbat of raising thin
amount of the deficiency, by adding to the immediate
burdens of the country—he could not be an advo-
cate for such a measure. There was, no necessity
imposed upon Government of recommending to Par-
liament any such course, no necessity arising either
from a desire to maintain the public faith with its
creditors, or for the support of the character of the.
country. The deficiency:was, as lie had already
stated,
,an annual deficiency. It had not now ap-
peared for the first time. Parliament had long
known it, and though so long cognizant of the fact
it had permitted it to exist. It could not, therefore,
be necessary at the present moment, and in the ox-.
isting condition of the country, to resort to th;s
burdensome—and in point of fact, he believed im-
practicable—course of raising the amount of the
surplus to the sum which the law directed. sat,
other course . was the practice which had been
hitherto pursued of borrowing the money to make
up the deficiency. To such a system he must
confess he felt very considerable objections._(Loud
cries of hear, hear, from the Opposition Benches.),
—He had no hesitation in saving that he had loue
felt, and he was very sure that a strong and generai
feeling existed amongst all who had paid attention to
the subject, that, to borrow money in time of peace,
in order to discharge a former debt, was a measure
objectionable in principle, totally indefensible with
any reference to reason, and which created delusion
without affording any substantial advantage, or
indeed any advantage whatever.—(Cheers.)—He
said this without any fear of being supposed to im-
pugn the principles upon which the Sinking
Fund was first established. He would maintain,
that the Sinking Fund never was established upon
the principle of borrowing the money by Nviiielt
it was to be supported. Such a scheme was
altogether preposterous, and such as no hem
of sense could conceive. When Mr. Pitt intsoducetA
the measure, he contemplated the means of disc
charging the Debt to be a real surplus of revenue.
over expenditure. His plan had been to reduce ex-
peaces, and to raise taxation, and not to borrow on
account of the Sinking Fund. In refusing, there-
fore, to lend himself to the borrowing of money for
the pur'pose of keeping up the Sinking Fund in
time of peace, he was strictly adhering to the prin-
ciples upon which Mr. Pitt originally laid down his
plan for the formation of a Sinking Fund, and
which, but for the unfortunate circumstances that
afterwards involved the country, he would have
adhered to. In a war which unhappily interferes
with all Mr. Pitt's views, and destroyed all his,
prospects, he was forced to depart from his owss
principles on which he had established the Sin ling
Fund. Mr. Pitt found himself thrown by -anfore,
seen and unexpected circumstances between tme
alternatives. He was reduced to the necessity either
of abandoning his principles of the Sinking -Fund
altogether, or to maintain the scheme and support.
its operations by borrowing funds, contrary to the
principles upon which the Sinking Fund had beee,
established. Of two evils Mr. Pitt chose the least,
but he (Mr. Goulburn) did not think that it ought
to be the policy of Mr. Pitt's successors, in tune
of peace, to borrow money to support their fund.
In addition to the general objections which exist—
in addition to the statement in the Report-of the
Committee of .Finance—the borrowing of money,
by which the Sinking Fund was to be maintained,
would be at present peculiarly objectionable; and
equally so would be resorting to the former
course, of making up the deficiency of surplus
by an issue of Exchequer Bills.—(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear," from all parts of the House.)—
He was not blind to the gain of the country
by the measure of last Session; he was not ig-
norant of the profit which the country had derived
last year by the sale of that kind of security, in order
to make up the deficiency of revenue to the pre-
scribed amount of the Sinking Fund. If lie were
not ignorant of this, nor was he ignorant that arrange-.
P'svese that was.
meats of that kind must have an end—(Lomi end
repeated cheers)—Exchequer Bills should 'nave
'alarm ; but they
consistency with circumstances and sound ss;,:iricipie,.
etipbeateadmaoruiyetthientgtr
s=pecies of sc.
pfinconveni;cecuolired u
elNi
ukoreti
Ityty.h
to
otn heemb
jaaekneett i
should look at what was possible
ontop make ;
to occur at what
what might be the result
dthperoupiolsfuentdoedthDeebHto. House
He should
ahraoitsieldmroantielea:;
aamnyougnrt"; feud to a greater degree than at
present by an additional issue ? He should
exertionsoaifi
aa Imvbaerketeoht
could
fled:
ipum
irnetFr.
ee: might
riot on
however much might be wanted, by adding to the
say it was the duty of that House, and that it would
be to the advantage of the country; to take advan-
tage of each practical occasion for the reduction of
the present amount. In saying this, he was very
far from saying that he intended to lend himself t 4
any hasty or abrupt absorption of the securities. He
was far from saying, that, by any precipitate and
advised measure of withdrawing Exchequer Bills
from the market, he would hazard the interest of the
commercial community, or run any risk of exposin
any brank of trade to inconvenience, He merely-
wished to say, that the views of Parliament, and of
his Majesty's Government, weee nether a reduction
than any increase of the Unfunded Debt. If it, were
etas
arsendichei
making
possible to resort, under the present circumstances,
to any measure additional taxation in omr,adse,r
tto
o
supply the sinltiug Fund, and if, on the other hand,
it WAa inexpedient to add to either the Funded or
the Unfunded Debt of the country, in order to make
up the deficiency of revenue
id
t 0
00
begged not to be
tmheeetretahle asmuroptliltitst
of
the Sinking Fund, it {lid appear to him, as it had
appeared to tie• Committee of Finance, that only
one alternetiye
orremneaicieresdsa;rytfitaot
orapeuf:teiniiceucreeia
crounet4oCfe
the stability of the
ahnodt.icoounrsiosftetnhteecffoourtntfroyr, tahnedretiluecntiaobnleu:thtoe
misunderstood. Be was not making a proposition
to abandon any thing that was due to the claaracter
Proposed was, the most efficient
country,
aver
ttf . from me
Hsxptienkbeenciodnpliglrtsenisrdeeen.rte( periodHtei
at al
en
meansdt. OlValleeatemhpelishing
regulareb
that object; and to accom-
pull that object was the best possible way to sup-
fulfil all its enga engagements with the public creditor.
The measure seine%
ees he proposed would not defeat
that object---an object which he considered essential
to the safety of the country. If he reduced the
amount of the Sinking Fund to the mere surplus of
porttite
Income over expenditure, he should in fact have the
rnean.&' in the present year of paying off a sum not
;inferior to that which bad hitherto been paid, nor
inferior to that which could be paid were the Sink-
ing Fund increased by any loans of money. The
only difference would be, that instead of apparently
a large reduction of the debt, there would be a
smaller reduction ; but that would be real instead of
fictitious. The Parliament had had it in contem•
plation to apply five millions annually to the reduc-
tion of the National Debt by way of a Sinking Fund.
In the course of eleven years this plan had reduced
the Debt by only twenty-eight millions, that being
the difference between the sums borrowed and the
sums over which the country possessed any control;
or, in other terms, the difference between the sums
borrowed, and the real surplus of revenue over e‘-
pendittire. In paying off the Debt by Qt ly

amount of the surplus, or three millions a year, he
was acting at least equally for the benefit of the
public creditor and of every public interest. Now,
having stated the Income and Expenditure of the
year, and the means by which he proposed to apply
a surplus revenue, it only remained for him to call
the attention of the House to the state of the Sup-
plies and of the Ways and Means. The House was
aware that they had already voted for the services
of the present year—For the Army, 8,049,938/.
This was less than the vote of last year by 145,566/.
For the present year the House had voted for the
-Navy 5,995,965/. This was less than the vote for
the same service in the last year by 129,885/. The
Ordnance for the present year had been voted at
1,597,1961., being a reduction, when compared with
the vote of last year, of 52,7761. The Miscellane-
ous vote for the year 1828 was 2,184,9611., which
was a reduction of 90,0711. when compared with
the vote of the miscellaneous service for the last year.
The total reduction, therefore, of the present year
amounted to 418,299/. To this sum they must
add the vote of credit of last year for the service of
Portugal, amounting to 500,000/., and which would
not be required any longer. This made a total
reduction, in favour of the present supplies over
those of the preceding year, of 918,299/. The
whole vote for the present ye\ar, including the in-
tercet upon Exchequer Bills, would be 18,628,060/.
He would now state to the House how he proposed
to provide for these payments, or, in other terms,
the Ways and Means by which he intended to
meet the Supplies which the House .had voted
to his Majesty. In the first place, he was in the pos,
session of the surplus of the Ways and Means of the
antecedent year. This would be found to amount to
%52,0001. The Government were to receive from
r!t. East India Company, on account of Half-pay
:aal Military Pensions, the- sum of 60,000/. On
account of the re-payment of Exchequer Bills, issued
e.ith reference to public works, he had to receive
-eO,OOO/. The annual duties upon Sugar, for the
yeee 1828, he estimated at 3,000,000/. The Trus-
-,F. of Naval and Military Pensions would pay for
the half year, to the sth July, 1827, 2,134,630/.
'i here remain of the Ways and Means, made up by
,urplus of the Consolidated Fund, 10,190,000/.,
end Ways and Means of 1827, remaining to be ap-
plied to the services of the year 1828, amounted to
the sum of 3,012,650/. The total Ways and Means
according to the above statement, would amount to
18,869,280/. At the end of the last Session of Par•
tiament it was propozed to make up the deficiency
of the Sinking Fund, by an addition to the Un-
tinded Debt, by means of an issue of Exchequer
These were to be met by a credit on the
Consolidated Fund. If the Consolidated Fund were
to be carried up for the necessary period these Ex-
chequer Bills would have been discharged; but Mr.
Canning stated to the House that lie intended to
Augment the Unfunded Debt by three millions, the
amount of the bills issued. The amount of Exche-
quer Bills to be voted would now exceed by three
millions the amount that was outstanding in the
course of the preceding year. The Committee and
the -House would see that this was no new creation
of debt. These Exchequer Bills had been in the
market already, although they were charged on a
fund confessedly inadequate to provide for them.
They were now to be provided for by being ex-
changed in the ordinary course of such transactions.
The result was, that the total Ways and Means were
what he had already stated them, viz. 18,869,2801.
This was to meet the expenditure or the supplies of
18,628,0601. Having thus brought before the
House the Income of the country for the present
Year, the amount of the Supplies, and also the
amount of the Ways and Means by • which those
supplies were to be met, he did not know that there
vas any further necessity for him to address the
House. He should certainly forbear from entering
into -any particular explanation as to what might be
the resources or expenditure of the country in fu-
ture years. From this he should abstain. He
could not, however, content himself with sitting
,iown, without expressing the very great satisfaction
which he felt in the general state and appear-
zrce of the country. He would look, in the first
place, at the present condition of trade. - The
increase of exports in the present year, as cum-
pared to the last five years, was calculated to
excite astonishment at the exertions of the Ma-
nufacturing interests of the country. If he re-
ferred to the shipping interest, the view was
equally cheerful. The augmentation of employment
in the shipping interest was large, compared with
the antecedent year. It fully corresponded with
the increased amount of articles exported and. im-
ported. He observed smiles upon the countenances
if some Honourable Members opposite. He knew
that the increase and prosperity of the shipping in-
;ere at had been controverted, but he thought the
argum,;4its used by a Right Hon'. Gentleman on his
atle of the House (Mr. Hiakisson) had sufficiently
and effectuai:y proved an augmentation of the ship-
ping of the country compared with and correspond-
ing to that of the exports of British manufactures.
—(Hear, hear.)e--If he looked to the comforts and
prosperity of the people, the view was equally cheer-
ful and satisfactory. He should say that the Excise
revenue afforded a picture -the moat gratifying it
was possible to conceive. • Every article which
the lower orders were in the habit of consum-
ing, ail that related to their comforts and -en-
joyments, had increased in the quantity used to a
great, and, he would add, a most satisfactory degree,
On candles there had been an increase in the -pre-
sent year, as compared to the antecedent year, in the
nroportion of 4 per cent. (A laugh.) To be sure
the did not exactly mean to_ say that candles were
not used as much by'tbe rich as by the poor. On
paper, an article to be sure AA much, if not more,
used by the rich or middle classes than by the poor,
there had been an increase over the consumption of
last year to the extent of 20/. per cent: Upon
printed goods, the inereased consumption was in the
proportion of -24 per cent.; upon spirits nine per
cent. In short, he could say with equal confidence
and satisfaction, that every article nosier the head of
Excise had received within the last half yeas a
considerable augmentation, varying from 4 to even
95 per cent. This related -particularly to the ar-
ticles most consumed by the lower orders. This
was most gratifying in every point of view,
for it showed a positive good, the pernoval
of evils, arid a prospect of increased happiness
to the bulk of the people. He was happy to say
-that this was the case, not only in this of the
IJ-cited Kingdom, which was said to bi a favoured
;Art, but also in the sister country—Treland.—When
lie thus contemplated the great and general improve-
ment of trade, the immense increase of exports, the
extension Of manufactures, and the improved cont-
forts of the people, indicated by the Excise—Whenhe contemplated the increase in the Aseeseed Taxes,
could he hesitate to say that he had the strongest
grounds to anticipate a progressive melioration of the
state of the country ? Was he net fully justified in
congratulating the House upon an augmentation of
i'evenue, and upon what appeared to him-was in-
finitely of greater value--an - improvement in the
comforts and prosperity of the people—the -surest
harbingers of wealth and stability ?
The Right Hon. Gentleman having sat down,
The CHAIRMAN put the question, " Ra-solved
that it is the opinion of the Committee, that, `towards
making good the supplies, there be issued the sum of
3,012,050/. out of the Ways and Meanse in Exche-
quer Bills, raised for the service of the-year 1827,
and now to be applied to the service of the year
1828."
Mr. MABERLY expressed his opinion that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had dealt with the subject
fully and fairly. Mr. Canning was the first man to
state boldly that the Sinking Fund was created by
a system of borrowing, and it was satisfactory to find
that we had at length arrived at a plain understand-
ing of the subject. He (Mr. Maberly) was happy
to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite declare
that this delusion was not to be continued. From
this reason it was fair to anticipate a more beneficial
arrangement under his influence. From 1792 to
the present, the Sinking Fund had never been
ash-
to it had beeu violated in ;misty ileitauces,

and it was therefore a delusion. But the Sinking Fund
had not only been a delusion—it had been an actual
loss to the country ; he would not state the sum to
-which that loss amounted, because upon this point
there was a great variety of opinion; he would state,
however, that it had operated most injuriously. The
loss by annuities had also been very great ; to 1828,
there had been annuities granted to the extent of
36,49.5,000/. and the injury to the country from this
source had been immense. The Howse ought to
have the accounts fairly before them, in order that
the system might be exposed so fully as that no Mi-
nister would be hereafter induced to follow it. From
1816, many unnecessary establishments had been
kept up, and we had expended according to the
lowest calculation, three millions per annum more
than we ought. According, then, to a very just
estimate; since 1816 no -less than •65 millions had
been unnecessarily squandered. It was, therefore,
no wonder, with this unnecessary expenditure of 65
millions, if we were deeply in debt, and if a great
burden of taxes were placed upon the people. These
were the great errors of our. financial system—a sys-
tem- which he and his friend had long deprecated
without finding much support. • They now, however,
found the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, agreeing with them, and although
they could never obtain any thing like a majority, by
all their talk, they were now likely to obtain a very
large one, because the Committee had recommended,
and the Minister had taken a more liberal view.
With respect to the Finance Committee, he would
observe that that Committee had looked narrowly
into 'the state of the country, and, in reference to
their report, it was to be observed that the House
had decided against any reduction in the army, the
navy, and the ordnance. The public would thus
see at once that the House had no intention to re-
duce the expenditure; it was therefore right in him
to express a hope that next year there would be, from
time to time, repeated propositions for the reduction
of the taxes.

Mr. LEYCESTER was glad to find that the
glorious piece of nonsense of paying with one hand
what "*as received by the other was to be done
awn)' with.
Mr. HUME said, it was now five years since he
and other Members contended against the system
which was now to be done away with. They en-
joyed the complete triumph of knowing that the
Right Hon. Gentleman now admitted the fallacy of
that system. He would contend that the Sinking
Fund never hadbeen, and never could be, productive
of any thing but loss to the country ; and further
that no State had ever yet profited by trafficking
in its own revenue. The House would, pethaps,
recollect that this was no new doctrine with him, for
no Budget had ever been introduced, since he had had
the honour ofa seat in the House,without his having de •
vied the correctness of the views taken by the respec-
tive Chancellors of the Exchequer, of our income and
expenditure, and of the operation and nature of the
Sinking Fund. Having, for the purpose of forming
a correct view of the subject himself, obtained from
the Treasury all the necessary documents from 1816
to the present time, he had availed himself of the
assistance of a gentleman eminently qualified for the
office (Mr. Marshall), and had laid before the Fi-
nance Committee the result 'of their labours. (Here
the Hon. Gentleman pronounced a warm eulogium
on Mr. Marshall.) Notwithstanding the correctness
of his statement, would it be credited that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers refused to enter into his compari-
sons of the profit and loss in each year, and yet they
now came into that House with one of the blindest
Reports ever laid on the table of the House of Com-
mons, purporting to be a financial statement ? He
should prove that from 1817, we had had a surplus
revenue, and that consequently there had been no
necessity for borrowing in the interim a single shil-
ling. From the Ist January, 1816, to the Ist Ja-
nuary, 1828, we had had a surplus of 35 millions.
By -the .-Finance Report -brought forward by the
Right Honourable Gentleman it appeared that
upwArds of 29 millions remained unaccounted for,
and yet Ministers had refused to go into any inquiry,
and without supporting their own statement or
defending their refusal by any document whatever.
Having, a surplus revenue, what would any Hon.
Gentleman think when he should hear that we had
sacrificed 106,000,0001., in order to keep up the
Sinking Fund? By one single operation alone, he
would show- that the -country had lost upwards of
1,000,0001. p©r annum, Wing the interest of a ca-
pital of 2.5,000,000/., by which sum he would con-
tend the debt ought to have been reduced. The
loss occurred in this way :—ln 1824 and 1825 Go-
vernment issued 8,000,0001. of Exchequer Bills.—
The produce they handed over to the Commission-
ers of the Sinking Fund, who applied it to the pur-
chase of 3 per cent Stock. Those Exchequer Bills
bore an interest of 3/. .ss. 6d. per cent.; the conse-
quence was; that when they came to be funded, Go-
vernment was obliged to give in lien for every one
of their) 1071. in Four per Cent. Stock, thus losing
-18 s. 10d. per annum in every 100/., making on the
whole transaction a loss to the public 012,550,0004
in Three per Cent. Stock. He should next come to
the 13,000,000/. borrowed of the Bank. At the
period when that operation was proposed he had
opposed it, and could now show that on 13,000,0001.
in the course of the seven years that had elapsed
since the bargain had been concluded, the country
had incurred a loss of upwards of 1,000,0004 The
House would recollect that in 1822 the late Mar-
quis of Londonderry and Mr. Vansittart had brought
forward a plan of borrowing 13,000,000/. for the
purpose of keeping up a fund of 5,000,0001., and
they effected it in this way ;—They granted to the
Bank an annuity of 585,740/. for forty-five years,
for which they were to receive, in sixteen regular in-
stalments, the SUM of 13,089,419/. (Here the Hon.
Member proceeded to state the payments that had
been made by the Bank pursuant to that agreement;
contending that, by it, a loss to the country would
accrue, on the 10th of October in the present year,
of 1,116,8601.; and that, for every 100/. issued,
the public had received only 73/., while with the pro-
duce, stock had been purchased back at 90per cent.)
He had heard that, on the Stock Exchange, the
credit, of the country was supposed to rest on the
Sinking Fund; but he would maintain that
_public
credit would be better supported by applying only.
the surplus revenue to the reduction of our debt,.
without borrowing, or lending, or any other species.
of hocus pncus.-4A laugh.)—He would call upon
the Right Hon. Gentleman to state what proportion
of the 1,500p024 referred to by him was to be
up-
plied' he reduction pr the Funded Debt. On the
-51-1 of July instant, the state of the Public Treasury
was such, that the dividends could not have been
paid to the public creditor had not the Bank con-
sented to advance to Government,B,343,ooo/.. He
considered that the connexion of the Government
with the Bank was fraught with consequences' ruin-
ous to the country, and that the whole of theim-
mepse sums paid to the Bank in the shape of bonuses
might have been saved. The Bank held,- at the
present momciat, in Exchequer, Bills, 3,000,0004 ;
6y000,000/. they bad purchased ; 11,000,000/. Dead
Weight; besides 8,000,0004 they had just advanc-
ed (as we understood); in all 28,000,0004 of eapi.
sal. Capital, did he say ? What had the Bank to
meet the demands upon her? The Bank re-issued
21,000,060/. in Bank- notes. They held deposits of
priVate individuals ID the amount of 6,500,0001., and
of deposits from the public departments -4,000,000/.
more; and of that sum 2,000,000/. were perfectly en-
gaged, exclusive of 2,000,000/. laid opt on mortgage.
I-12 should ask, conseepiently, how could the Bank
maintain herself under these circumstances against a
run ? He would repeat that all our pecuniary loss
in times past, and that might happen to us in future,
had arises, and would arise, from the connection of
Government with the Bank. He highly approved
of the recommendation of the Finance Committee,
that all the real surplus should be applied to the re-
duction of our debt; but he should prefer its appli-
cation, to the reduction of ditties on articles neces-
sary to our manufactures. In a word, he objected
to the application of 3,000,000/. to the reduction of
our funded or unfunded debt, if it could be applied
: to other objects with mote benefit to the country.
The Finance Committee had condemned t 4

ing system of expenditure, yet the Government con-
tinued that system. The entire of the surplus re-
maining, 500,000/.; was absorbed by the payment of
the life annuities, so that the whole revenue of the
year was exhausted; and there remained no surplus
for the redemption of the debt. Where then was
the use of borrowing a million of money for redeem-
ing the debt ? The delusion which he anticipated
last year was now realized; the report of the Fi-
nance Committee proved his anticipations to be cor-
rect. Mr. Canning, in his statement of last year,
made an error of more than one million. Was this
a state of things to be borne ? Ought the House to
allow itself to be gulled by such statements from the
Treasury ? The Budget of 1826, by Mr. Robinson,
was still more defective; though great praise had
been bestowed on its supposed accuracy. This he
should show another time. Scarcely one Treasury
statement of the finances was correct. After a few
other words, the Hon. Member eoncluded by apo-
logising for having trespassed so long on the time
of House.,
Mr. MONCK spoke under the
gallery, and was
generally inaudible. The Hon. Member was under-
stood to condemn the Sinking Fund.
Mr. WARD said it would net be just in the Go-
vernment to neglect the interests of the fundholders
while the landed proprietors got a Corn Bill so ad-
vantageous to their interest—equally advantageous
to the fundholders was an 'efficient sinking fund.
He (Mr. W.) did not wish to embarrass Govern-
ment, but was anxious to state, on the part of the
fundholders, their hopes that the expectations ex-
cited in them by the professions held out would not
be disappointed, and their interests. overlooked in
the financial arrangements proposed by the Govern-
ment. It had been strongly urged by some Hon.
Gentlemen, that the country would be in a better
situation if no sinking fund existed. He who as-
serted that, virtually said that it was better the
country should be in debt instead of out of debt.--
(A laugh.)
Mr. HERRIES' said, the Hon. Member for
Montrose had accused the late Chancellor of the
Exchequer of a great inaccuracy in the estimate he
had made last session. The Hon. Member had said
that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had misled
the House to the extent of 5,000,0004 in his esti-
mate of the probable amount of the income of the
year. But that estimate had proved most accurate
for there was only a difference of 50,0001., between
what was really raised and what he had anticipated.
Mr. Canning, in all these computations began by
stating that he excluded all receipts and payments,
which had nothing to do with the expenditure of
the country. With respect to the Sinking Fund,
none were more anxious in the Committee than the
Members of the Government belonging to it, to
arrive as soon as possible at making a true and real
surplus of the condition of its existence. It was
with regret that the Finance Committee had pro-
posed to reduce the Sinking Fund from 5,000,000/.
to 3,000,000/. He concurred in that proposal, and
if even 3,000,000/. actual surplus could not be raised,
he should say, make the Sinking Fund even lower
than that—in short, never have the Sinking Fund
larger than the actual surplus.—(Hear.)—He could
not agree with the notion which some seemed to
entertain, that the Government was pledged to the
public creditor to keep up the Sinking Fund. The
only point in which that doctrine would hold was
with regard to the three and a half per cent.
stock, of which the Parliament was pledged to
make a reduction of one per cent. With that
exception the public creditor had no more claim
upon the Government than every other subject had.
The Hon. Member for Montrose had brought seve-
ral weighty charges against the .Finance Committee.
He had accused it of being unwilling to receive
certain statements from him. He (Mr. Herries),
for his part, was always .willing to examine them,
but their length and complicated nature rendered it
impossible, that, with the little time there was to
spare, any definite result could have been come to.
Besides, the Hon. Member ought to remember that
he himself was unwilling to follow the statements
made by others.—(A laugh.)—Nevertheless, any
paper he might think proper to produce should be
investigated by the proper persons, and hereafter a
conclusion might be come to. The Hon. Member
supposed that they had lost some undiscoverable
sum of 29,000,000/. Now, the bare statement of
the sum ought to have been, he thought, a different
inducement for the Hon. Member to have looked
through his papers. On a former occasion the Hon.
Member had made a statement with respect to an
unaccounted sum of 36,000,000/., which was not
unacompanied with some sly insinuations of its hav-
ing got into the pocket of Ministers.—(Laughter.)
—But these thirty-six millions, on going through
the account, were found to be owing to the omis-
sions of those who prepared the returns on which
the Hon. Gentleman had made his calculations;
19,000,000/. of these millions, a pretty large sum in
the account, were found to be so many Navy Bills
which had been issued, but the return
gave no ac-
count of their expenditure. Another sum the Hon.
Gentleman had omitted, was the 4,600,000/., being
the British loan to Austria. There were other omis-
sions discovered, which made up the exact sum sup-
posed by the Hon. Member to be lost, so that that
proved the remainder of his account to be correct,
and that he had, in fact, only made a mistake of the
amount of 36,000,000/.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME made the statement six years ago,
and this was the first time he had beard any expla-
nation bf it.
Mr. HERRIES replied, that the paper which
gave him these facts had been made up some time,
but had lain by forgotten till the present similar ex.
traordinary statement of the lion. Member made
him brush up his memory. With respect to the
unfunded debt, he begged to say a few words.
Statements had been made on the other side of the
House, as if his Right lkin. Friend (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) had been understood to say, that
from this time the surplus revenue, if any, which
was to be applied to the extinction of the debt, was
to be exclusively applied to the redemption of the
unfunded debt. Now, with whatever different
views that supposed declaration might have been re-
ceived, he would venture to say that such was not
his Right Hon:Friend's statement : he only stated
to the House the recommendation of the Finance.
Cortmittee that hereafter the surplus should be
applied to the extinction of the unfunded, as well its
the funded debt. Circumstances, at one time, might
make it advantageous to apply the surplus of revenue
to the reduction of the funded debt ; at others to
that of the unfunded debt. If he :could feel himself
at liberty to. express an opinion oil this subject at
the present moment, he should say this was not the
time to apply such a fund to the reduction of the
unfunded debt. (Hear, hear.) Looking at the
Right Hon. Friend,the Chancellor .of
present state of our currency, which really (as he
thoughtcliletter had sufficiently demonstrated). was
the
lix
such as should effectually, dispel all fears about the
operation of the Small Notes' Bill; it must . be
allowed, that 'however favourable its existing condi-
tion, the public mind was in' that feverish State upon
tile question, that it would lie extremely 'unwise to
adopt any measure 'Which, 4e that of a sudden ima
extensive reduction in the unfunded' debt, might
produce a great alteration in the amount and system
of the currency. Having given his best attention to
all which had fallen from his Right Non. Friend this
to apply the surplus or excess of reve-
evening, he concluded that his Right Hon, Friend
mutative to the reduction of the funded,
nn
lees
adbi sopvoes
ee
xd p
in preference to that of the unfunded debt ; and he
(Mr. }Terries) concurred with him on this point..-'
The Hon. Gentleman opposite had'exnressed himself
strongly against a Sinking Fund, and for the conver-
sion of a portion of the permanent annuities. But
the Hon. Gentleman should remember that, ter-
minable annuities were not very favourite stock in
the market. For the last thirty years, in various
States of Europe, when a Government had: been de-
sirous of raising a loan, it had granted a greater or
less amount of such annuities; but in all cases they
had been disposed of to the purchaser on terms ex-
tremely unprofitable to the Government. Our own
Goveriantrit, therefore, had found it more expedient

to raise monies upon issues of Three per Cent.
Stock, for example, even though they were obliged
to do so at a certain degree of loss. As far as the
recommendation of the Committee was concerned,
and looking to the effect of voluntary bargains
entered into by private capital, no doubt, however,
much might speedily and safely be effected towards
the reduction of the Unfunded Debt.

Mr. HUME.—The Right Hon. Gentleman has
not yet answered the observations I offered in
respect of the life annuities.
Mr. BERRIES thought his Right Honourable
Friend had already, by his statement, supplied the
answer called for. From that statement it should
appear that throughout the papers lately laid upon
the table, the life annuities was considered as a
part of the charge of the Sinking Fund ; and all
that portion of the surplus of revenue above the ex-
penditure, hitherto been applied to the making up of
the Sinking Fund, on its late system, was to be now
appropriated to these life annuities. Whether it
might not simplify the statement of the matter
hereafter, to consider these life annuities as part of
the general debt to be provided for, and not calcu-
late any surplus of revenue until after the charge of
them had been deducted from the gross income,
might be another question.—(Hear, hear.)—And he
was disposed to acquiesce in the propriety of
adopting this simplified mode of stating the account.
—(Hear, hear.)—Now the surplus calculated for
the present year, of 3,000,8001., did undoubtedly
include the charge for life annuities, which, being
deducted from it, left an actual surplus of about
2,800,000/. This was the surplus of revenue or
income, independent of the life annuities' charge.—
(Cheers.)—There was no error in this statement;
and he was adopting a mode of statement which
was the least qualified to mislead, inasmuch as it
had been the practice of Parliament for many years
to adopt it.
Sir H. PARNELL was anxious to bear testimony
to the perfect fairness and plainness of the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer's statement of this evening—
(Hear, hear)—and indeed be thought that the esti-
mate on which that Right Hon. Gentleman had
prepared his Budget was not only quite moderate,
but even much below what he might, with fairness,
have taken it at.—(Hear, hear.)—He should now
address himself to some parts of the Right Hon.
Gentleman's statement. If he understood him
rightly it was his intention to apply three millions
annually to an actual Sinking Fund. Now, it was a
great question in the Committee whether a fixed
sum of three millions a year should he applied to
this purpose, or whatever might be the actual sur-
plus of revenue beyond expenditure for each year.
It was fit the public should understand that the
Committee recommended the specific amount in
question. It was agreed in the Committee that
3,000,000/. should be the sum at which the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer ought to propose his fund
to the House; and that the Commissioners for the
reduction of the National Debt should purchase stock
throughout the year at this rate. It was further
agreed, that if a deficiency should arise in the income
of any year to such an extent as not to bear the ap-
propriation of this sum, the difference should be de-
ducted from the surplus of preceding years, so that
at all events there should be no sort of debt, what-
ever might be the sum appropriated, whether more or
less incurred in carrying into execution this new plan
for the reduction of the National Debt. As to what
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had said about
the policy of the Sinking Fund, it should be recol-
lected that they who were most opposed to the
Sinking Fund were, like the late Mr. Ricardo, the
most anxious for the reduction of the debt. His own
feeling on the question was this, that the country
was already in that state, from excessive taxation,
that the taxation of three millions a year necessary to
raie this Sinking Fund, would do more harm than
any appropriation of it could do good. It behoved
the House to consider how very injuriously some of
our taxes must tell upon the energies of the country.
By a paper which he had called for in the Finance
Committee, it appeared that not less than six mil-
lions were raised upon articles that formed the very
basis of our, industry and manufactures and other-
wise; commodities, in short, that entered into our
manufactures, into building, and so forth. Such
taxes must, of necessity, add to the cost of produc-
tion; and seeing how much our prosperity now de-
pended upon our ability to compete with foreign
industry and capital, it was clear that we were
losing by these taxes our foreign markets.—(Hear.)
When we saw that foreigners were manufacturing
their own machinery, and bringing into market in-
creased capital and industry, was it not of the
highest moment that we should get rid of all
those burdens, which Increased so mischievously the
cost of production ? some of these taxes were of the
most direct kind; and those which might be classed
under the head of Excise, and were levied on ar-
ticles of such extensive consumption as paper, glass,
and so on, were of all others the most expensive.
This was that class of taxes which gave rise to
smuggling; and which smuggling the vain attempt
to put down occasioned the country the yearly ex-
pense of 700,000/. When he and others proposed
to repeal the imposts which gave rise to all this
smuggling, they wet e answered, that a revenue was
raised from them of from one to two millions; and
how was this sum to be sacrificed. But looking to
the increased consumption which the extinction of
these duties would create—to the relief from this
charge of 700,000/., and all the expenses attendant
upon the chain of barracks, as he might call them,
which we were now obliged to maintain all round
the toast—would it not be well to give up this one
or two Millions of revenue ? (Hear, hear.) Other
taxes, like that upon timber, were so absurdly high,
that, instead of gaining, the revenue was known to
lose by them. He himself had come to this con-
clusion, that where the question was, whether we
should reduce debt or lower taxation, he was for
lowering taxation. The first duty of the Govern-
ment in the first year of the peace ought to have been
to have revised the whole system of taxation. If
the Government would only give the country a fair
chance, by remitting taxes, such was her power of
production, and such her capital, that there could be
no fear, with such an advantage, of her being able
to discharge all the obligations of her debt. As to
the arguments—or rather, the assertions, for they
are not arguments-'—of those Hon. Gentlemen who
talked about a Sinking Fund Whig essential to
public credit, what had it in reality to do with
public credit at all ? So long as we could
pay the dividends, public credit was perfectlysafe. If he could once see our taxes put upon a
better, footing, and properly revised, he would give
his support to a much larger plan for the. production
ofthheNational Debt than that now proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleinan. After taxes had been
lightened 'fora year or two, he would 'Supped the
imposition of others to be appropriated to the reduc-
tion of debt, provided only that they did not press
upon our productive industry, to the'amount of five
or even six milliOns. If the old system for the re-
duction of debt were to be persevered in, what
would be the consequence in the event. of any future
war? We should go on first to permanent PropertY
Tax, then to new loans, and, finally, to such a mass
of additional taxation to defray the charge of ottr in-
creasing debt, that we should be brought to a na-
tional bankruptcy. It was now the time, then, for,
the -adoptiOn of a beneficial change of system.. There
could be no doubt 'that the country was now far.
richer than she was at any time during the war.
To show the Committee how much would have been
saved'had we not resorted to the system t.f loans, he
begged to state that, by a document produced to
the Finance Committee, it appeared that the reve-
nues of the Exchequer, during all the years of the
last war, would have sufficed to meet the expenses
of the country, with the exception of an amount of
172 millions. This would have been the result had
no loan been raised,since 1792 ; whereas the loss
occasioned to the country by all the loans raised since
that time, amounted to upwards of 600 millions;
and the enormous difference between the two sums
might, by a better system, have been saved. The
lion. Baronet concluded by expressing his sanguine
hopes of great benefit to be derived to the nation

from the oontinued labours of the Committee, which
he hoped would sit next year, and have the benefit
of the Right Hon. Gentleman's continued services.

Mr. P. THOMSON wished to know of the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it
were to be understood that it was the intention of
the Government in future years- to apply only the
actual excess of revenue over expenditure to-the re-
duction of the debt ? Then ,he wished to know of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, if it were intended to adopt
this plan during this year ? Again, supposing this
to be the intention of Government with respect to this
year, he wished to ask, in what way it was intended
that the surplus should be invested ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
with respect to the first question of the Honourable
Member, would' reply, that it was intended in
future years to apply only the excess of income abode
expenditure to the reduction' of the debt. At the
same time, however, it would be the duty of those
who presided over the financial state of the country,
to keep up that surplus to the amount of three
millions. Then, the Hon. Member had asked him,
if it were intended to adopt this plan in the present
year ? To this he would reply, that it was intended
that the operation of the plan should commence from
the time at which the Committee came to their de-
cision. That it should commence at the end of the
last half year; and it would be his duty that even-
ing to move for leave to bring in a Bill to limit the
sum applicable to the reduction of the debt to half of
three millions in the next half year. The next
question of the Hon. Member was as to the nature
of the investment. In answer to this question, he
had to state, that in the Bill which he intended to
introduce, here would be the power of redeeming
either the funded or the unfunded debt.
Mr. P. THOMSON should not have risen
again but for the answer which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had given to his second question. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that it was intend-
ed to comply with the recomMendation of the
Finance Committee, and to apply only the excess of
income over expenditure this year. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman added, that it was intended to ap-
ply, in the next half year, half of 3,000,0001. to the
extinction of debt. Now, that ought not to be
done unless it could be shown that the real surplus
for that half year amounted to the sum of 1,500,0001.
But the statement which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had made clearly proved that no such surplus
did exist, and if, therefore, extinction of debt to
that amount took place, it must be by again recur-
ring to the practice of borrowing. He had merely
risen for the purpose of noticing this, but as the
Right Hon. Gentleman (the Master of the Mint)
had expressed a strong opinion of the impropriety
of applying any surplus to the reduction of the debt
due from the Government to the Bank, he felt him-
self called upon to make a few observations on that
part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. So
far from the present being a bad time to reduce that
debt, he thought it would be difficult to select a
better time. But the Right Hon. Gentleman:
Herries) argued that it would be inconvenient to
reduce the amount of his debt, and said that if
we repaid the Bank 1,500,000/. we should take
'so much from the circulation. Under ordinary
circumstances, he would admit this agunsent to
be correct; but the present were not ordi-
nary circumstances. In the relations in which the
Government and the Bank now stood, the payment
of 1,000,000/. to the Bank—who had still one mil-
lion pounds to advance on the dead weight—would
be merely a book transaction. It would be the pay-
ment of a million which would never come into cir-
culation. If therefore a millon of supposed surplus
were thus disposed of, there would remain five brill-
dred thousand to be disposed of. They had been lately
told by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, that they had a circulation of 65,000,000/.
Was it. possible that withdrawing 500,000/. from
such a circulation could be attended with any in-
convenience ? Besides, this withdrawal would only
affect the London circulation, 'and they knew from a
late account that there were deposits to the amount
of six millions in the Bank, lying idle, because the
owners of the money could not find occupation fur
it. If therefore 500,000/. were abstracted from the
circulation, it would soon be replaced. He would
contend that the accident of our having to receive
one million from the Bank—coupled with the
amount of the deposits in the Bank—wasa complete
argument, if argument he could call it, of the-Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries). He was inforMed,
that the debt due from Government to the Bank
was allowed to remain as it was. The debt stood
thus :

Advance for the dead weight £11,089,419
Exchequer Bills 6,132,000
Ditto, issued...... 3,328,62S

£20,b50,047
Deficiency bills, sth July, 1828 8,343,864

. . • £28,893,911
He would not go into the question of the Sinking
Fund, as he had merely risento notice the answers
of the Right Hon: Gentleman (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer), and to call the attention of the
House to the state of the. Bank debt. He must,
observe, that he perfectly concurred iu the
arguments of the lion. Baronet, both in regard to
however,thenutttre of a sinking fund and of taxation.
Mr. MABERLY explained.
After a few words from Mr. HERRIES, the reso-
lution was" agreed to.

The next resolution, that the snip .of 6,190,000/.
be paid out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain
and Ireland, towards raising the supply, was also
agreed to, as was also a resolution to the following
effect :—" That the sum of 16,046,8001. be raised
by Exchequer Bills,
for the service of 1828."
The House then resumed, and the report was or-
dered to be brought up tomorrow (this day.)

- -
NATIONAL DEBT ACT.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, the House went into a Committee
on this Act, when the Right Hon. Gentleman pro-
posed the following Resolution .That it is the
opinion of this Committee, that in lieu of the sum
now directed to be raised by the Act of the 4th of
Geo. IV., there be issued out of the Consolidated
Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
-Ireland, towards the reduction of the National Debt,
at the receipt of the Exchequer, to the Commis-
sioners for 'the Reduction of the National Debt, such
annual sums as, together with the annual amount of
interest of all stock that on the .sth of July, 1828, was
stinding'in the name of the Commissioners of the
National Debt, 'amounting to the sum of three
millions.

....... _
Mr. HUME moved an anieridment—" Provided
'
that there be a clear surplus revenue to that amount."
HERRIES, and Mr. HumE
was abbut to divide the House, but his amendment
was finally negatived without a division, and the ori-
ginal resolution agreed to.
The next Resolution was, that the Commissioners
TheE xc mit°Li°u
the n
Ewastt and Mr. opposed by the CHANCELLOR of
for the reduction of the National Debt be empowered
to apply the money vested in them to the purchase
of Exchequer Bills if they so think fit; and that such
Bills be cancelled.--Agreed to. Report was
. The House then resumed,' and the R
ordered to be received 'to-morrow (this day).

EAST Rr.TFORD-
Mr. N. CALVERT moved the Ordera the Day
for receiving the Report on the East R etftord Dis-
franchisement Bill.
The Report was received, and ordered to be taken
into further consideration on Tuesday se'imight.
The Hon. MEMBER stated, that it was his inten-
tion, in the event of the House sitting so long (which
he did not anticipate), to postpone the further con-
sideration to a still farther day.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of
the East Retford Freemen fill was then read.
Mr. N. CALVERT said, he would hereafter
move, that the issuing of the writ for East Retford
should be postponed to a certain period in the next
Session.

Mr. PEEL pledged himself to -.o.ipport the mea-