The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

that his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of
Dublin had reason to apprehend that it would shake the foun-
dations of that Protestant University. When the Right Hon.
Gentleman referred to the opinions of Mr, O'Connell, he
heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungar-
von (Ur. Shiel) say, in an audible whisper, that this was
long ago, and though he admitted that opinions might and
ought to change—( Hear)—yet an opinion like that quoted by
his Right Hon. Friend, which, indeed, was more a promise
that he would use no influence to disturb that insti-
tution, than an opinion—ought not to be allowed. —( Hear.)
They had always deprecated those loose principles of educa-
ticn. He entirely differed from the measure of the Govern-
ment—he never could consent to make himself a party to mea-
sures of such a character. He believed the present measure
to be founded on an absolute disregard of thos:e principles which
they had hitherto cherished. He believed the measure to be
subversive of the best interests of Christianity. Never till now
had they been called upon to provide a system of education
not only without religion, but throwing religion entirely over-
board. He did not, however, feel himself called upon to
divide the House on the present occasion ; but he would, on a
subsequent stage, raise his voice, if it were to be a solitary
one, agrinst a Bill, the very foundation and principles of which
he believed to be defective.
Mr. SHEIL then rose and said—Sir, the Hon. Baronet
who has just sat down called it ct a gigantic scheme of God-
less education," a phrase which certainly has been
more unscrupulously used than almost any other,
and which seems much misapplied as regards the proposition of
the Government to establish in Ireland these colleges fur the
instruction of the higher and middle classes there. I thought
that the clear and perspicuous statement of the Hun Gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which he
referred the disastrous failure of every attempt to propagate in
Ireland education on the exclusive principles of the religion of
the Church of England, must have convinced the Hon. Baronet
that in this experiment it was useless to persevere. If any-
thing could be made perceptible to the mind of the Hon. Gen-
tleman—if anything could force conviction on his mind, and
even in despite of the inveteracy with which he cherishes his
opinions—these notorious facts would have forced that convic-
t:on. He said there was no former instance of a State under-
taking the education of a people without connecting with it a
religious system. The Hon. Baronet seemed to have forgotten
the system of national education in Ireland.— ( Hear.) The
original plan was often pressed on the attention cf the House
by my Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse)
to whom the credit of its system belongs. although, until this
eveninl, I never heard a Minister of the Crown make the ad-
mis-ion. The whole of the plan introduced by the Ni;ble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley) was one
condensation of suggestions thrown out from time to tme by
my Hon. Friend, whose rewardlis confined to his own breast,
which might admit of the highest order of reward.— ( Hear. )
This system of national education, I repeat, has been sanc-
tioned and established by the Government.—(Sir R. Inglis
gave signs of dissent). Does the Hon. Baronet dispute in the
the teeth of the fact ?

Sir R. INGLIS—(as we understood him)—it was not an
endowment.

Mr. SHEIL—ShaII we dispute aboat the word "endow-
ment''—shall we go into sophistications and learned subtleties ?
The Hon. Baronet is a member of a scholastic institution, and
brings from it with him distinctions which rather belong to
refined dialectics. There is no real, substantial distinction be-
tween a grant made every year and an endowment, but the
latter has the great advantage of avoiding disputes and contro-
versies, of which we have recently had such lamentable in-
stances.—( Hear, hear.) In one point of view, strange to -ay,
I coincide with the Hon. Baronet. I mean with respect to the
necessity of religious instruction—l think it is: unfortunate that
the Right Hon Gentleman has not devised some means. I will
yet trust to the ingenuity of the Right Hon. Gentleman to pro-
vide some means by which the reproach may be re-
moved that no religious instruction of any kind is to
be given in these establishments. The object is;
of course, to make this measure acceptable to the great
body uf the people and to those who have great weight
and influence among them, I mean the Roman Catholic priest.
hood, to conciliate whose feelings you are evidently anxious.
The great body of the Roman Catholic priesthood will com-
plain that no means have been adopted for the purpose of con-
veying religious instruction in those colleges, and my Hon.
Friend made, I think, a very useful suggestion that, hereafter,
individuals might be allowed to grant, for the purpose of en-
dowing a chair of divinity, if they thought proper. The sug-
gestion seemed to have been adopted by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, but such a matter ought not to be left, I will not
say to caprice, but to the casual discretion, respecting the ex-
ercise of which we cannot with any confidence predicate. I
tell you that the Roman Catholic clergy will object to your
plan on this ground. I have here a pamphlet, written by a
gentleman of high talents, a personal friend of my own, who is
professor in the Catholic College of Thurles, which was esta-
blished by a Roman Catholic Archbishop, who bequeathed to
it 20.00(11., which he earned hard in the seminary of Uiver.
atone in this country. Dr. Lahey is the author of the pamphlet
to which I allude—the ablest man in the college. He is of opi-
nion that there ought to be a separate system of education
where practicable, but he says a " mixed system of education is
better than none, but with a mixed system of education, reli-
gious instruction is compatible." Religious instruction
is given to the lower classes in Ireland under the
present system of education there. Rsman Catholic priests
attend at the schools for the purpose of giving religious instruc-
tion, and Protestant clereymen are likewise at liberty to do so.
Certain houses are there allocated for the purposes of religious
instruction, and every facility is offered to those who attend to
administer such instruction. I should think the same facilities
ou,tht to be given here—( Hear, hear, from Sir J. Graham)—
and that it should be made imperative on those in the establish.
means to attend someplace of religious worship.—( No, no.) I
can see no objection. I think it is a very reasonable request.
You may say you cannot apply the public money to religions
education, and I admit that difficulties have been thrown in the
way of such a proposition on a late occasion which may well
discourage any Government. But a middle course may be
adopted, and I should very much regret that no religious in-
struction was to be given in those colleges. 1 think tl.e Ca-
tholic bishops in their particular districts ought to see that re-
ligious instruction was given to those members of his faith who
were in that college. lam sure it would be his duty, and I see
no sort of reason why he should not.
Sir J. GRAHAM—There is nothing to prevent them.
Mr. SHEIL—I own that I desire tkat means were taken to
enforce it.—(No, no.) Well, I am anxious that. your plan
should succeed, though I see much in it that is imperfect. I
am anxious, for that purose, to take means to conciliate those
who have paramount influence in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
You made great mistakes about the Charitable Bequests Bill—
mistakes which I foresaw and warned you of.• I told you you
committed a great error in not consulting the Roman Catholic
Bishops. You consulted them on the Nlaynooth Bill, and you
succeeded. I now warn you again, that you must obtain their
support to make this plan work efficiently. Having said thus
much with respect to apart of the plan, I cannot help expres-
sing my regret that the present condition of the University of
Dublin is not modified. The Right Hon. Baronet has not told
us whether he intends to affiliate the proposed colleges with the
Dublin University. He referred to the 23d sect. of the Act
by which fellowships were reserved exclusively for Protestants ;
but there is a very important section in that Act, to which I
will call the attention of the House, which has not been di-
rected to it. The Asst contains an express provision
that there may be another college subsequently founded in
connexion with Dublin College. A distinction must be ob-
served between Dublin College and Dublin University. The
Act of 1793, I say, provides that another college may be esta-,
blished in connexion with the Dublin one, which other was to
form a part of it. Thus we may see, at once, that in 1793,
when Roman Catholics were less powerful than they are now,
that even then it was contemplated to establish a college to
which Roman Catholics and Protestants should have ready
access, and which would be placed in conjunction with Trinity
College. Trinity College, Dublin, as is at present stands, is
a great obstruction in the way of carrying out a just, equitable,
and liberal policy towards the people of Ireland. The Right
Hun. Baronet adverted to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell ;
but it must be recollected that that evidence was given under
a very different state of circumstances to those which at pre-
sent exist—when the Irish Catholics were treating for a re-
moval of the disabilities which affected them. At the very
same time that this evidence had been given, it
was proposed by Lord Francis Egerton to endow
the Roman Catholic priesthood, and if this had
been then done, the Protestant university viould have been
allowed to remain undisturbed. You should not now refer
to statements which were only made conditionally.—( Hear.)
Yoe did not enter into any contract with us. The Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government distinctly declared
he would enter into no compact with Roman Catholics. But
might you not open Trinity College as a great national
establishment without incurring the evils you apprehend. You
think it would not be consistent with justice or policy to do
so. I think it is not consistent with justice or policy to close it.
Remember that you leave Trinity College in the enjoyment of
permanent and predominant advantages. Its possessions are very
large. The fellows of that college raise each about 2,0001. a
year, and they have a high social position, as well from their
great acquirements, as from their ample emoluments. It sends
two alembers to Parliament, and, in short, enjoys many other
advantages above any other institution. Now, as long as it
is thus predominant, for so long you cannot expect the Catho-
lic people will be reconciled to it. I know you will tell me
that the interests of the Established Church require that it
should be in some respects exclusively Protestant. How un-
fortunate it is that whenever a project for the amelioration
of the country is devised, the Church Establishment
must be flung in its way_( Hear, hear)—and encounter the
projector at every step. There can be no doubt but these fel-
lowships would be eagerly s rugg,led for by Catholics if they
were open to them—that they are in the road to the highest
promotion, and yet in what connexion (properly speak'ng) with
the Ecclesiastical department ?—( Hear, hear.) When Roman
Catholics are admitted to universities, they should be allowed
o reach the acme of their honours, their dignities, and their
emoluments—they should be allowed to pluck the golden
fruits which grow on the tree of knowledge.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") There existed a system in that college
with respect to scholarships, which is every way worthy of
condemnation. A Roman Catholic enters as a sizar, and ob-
tains the prizes in science and the classics. Aftsr two years'
study, he can only become a candidate for a scholarship uy re-
linquishing his faith. which many, I regret to say, have done
from sordid motives, and afterwards relapsed into open infi-
delity. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) told the
Recorder for Dublin, a few nights ago, that ascendancy in
Ireland was at an end ; but Trinity College, as it now '
stood, was an odious monument of ascendancy. )
If they leave Trinity College as it stands, they leave it be•
cause of its ascendancy. and I shall ask the Government if
it will be wise, if it will be politic, to do this alter the
Right Hon: the Secretary for the Home Department has
told them that the future Government of Ireland cannot be
conducted on the same principle? What I should now wish
to see is this, an equality between those professing Boman
Catholic principles and the Protestants of Ireland. While I
thus object to the Government policy in detail, I cannot ob-
ject to the general principle which they pursue, because I
think it calculated to induce a more friendly feeling between
the countries. I cannot, under these circumstances, with-
hold my rinsed of praise from the Government measure as
far as it goes.
Sir R PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had neither,
by his speech or his intended vote, removed his impression of
the course he had pursued in 1835, when he ( Sir R. Peel)
had said that the chief difficulty of his Government jested
with Ireland. The Right Hon. Baronet had not certainly
dune much to remove tnat impression from his ( Sir R. Peel's)
mind, when he found the Right Hon. Member fur Dungar-
von prepared to vote with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Oxford, in his opposition to a measure which was intended
as one of justice to the people of Ireland. In addressing him-
self, in the fist place, to the observations which hart fallen
from the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford
(Sir R. H. Inglis), he felt it might be asked, whet was in-
tended by the term " educational instruction ?'' They
had already provided ample means for the instruc-
tion of the poorer clisses of Ireland, for, as his Right
Honour able Friend the Secretary for the Home Department
had informed them that they had educated about 400,000 of
the children of the poorer classes io Ireland. But they found
that in Ireland there was not the same amount of academical in-
struction which they had in Scotland—a country with only one-
third of the population. In Scotland they had five institutions
for educational purposes, bat in Ireland there were no such ad-
vantages. They had, indeed, two establishments for the pur-
poses of secular and religious education—the one, Trinity Col-
lege, Dublin, and the ether the much-vilified Maynooth Cele
lege. In no other instance did any institution exist in Ireland
for the purposes of affording such instruction as might be en-
couraged by the State. The Government proposed to supply
that omission, but it must be remembered that they had to deal