The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-19 00:00:00

the. CaMatron the *abject of Portugal,' ll.sitould be re-
collected, that, when that undertaking Was qiiectioned in
Parliament, the, Pliable Duke had vindicated it in his place
in the other blouse. The imputation, then, of illiberality
in the. Duke of WellingtOn, and the charge of ibcbitsis-
tency brought against myself for taking office ander-bim,
are alike unfounded. Sir, I feel it to be really impossible,
notwithstanding the call made upon me by the Noble ,Lord,
to enter into a narrative ofall the explanations and under-
standings that have taken place between me and the Noble
Duke at the head of. the Cabinet, previous to in accept-
ing the office which I have now the honour to hold. Ob-
servations, charging Inc with inconsistency in the discharge
my public duty, have been levelled against my character
in various ways. To take one of many instances in regard
to the appointment of the Finance Committee—l have
men accused of abandoning my principle s on that ques-
tion: • But how .does the case stand? In several interviews
which I, ha& with the Noble Duke, and in the course,
of which we •discussed. together the, various topics con-
nected with the formation and operation of the existing
Covernment, it accidentally escaped my attention to ask a
question relative to the Finance Committee; When the
subject occurred tome,, I was at the moment -confined to
ply Toom,byindisposition-;--mad I wrote to the 'Noble Duke
for the purpose of ascertaining his feeling's and sentiments
nn the subject. I hold in my hand the Noble ,INice's
s.vritt en answer to that communication—it is perfectly and
,entirely satisfactory..—(Year.)—Let persons say what they
-will of a pledge—a stipulation..—or a guarantee-4 call the
communication in question by notie of theie names—it is
simply a question asked_ on my part, 'and -an answer given
by the Noble Duke—(Hear)—but boad,---(Hear, hear,
.hear.)—l again say, Sir, call it what you will--pledge—
stipulation--or guarantee--still, I fearlessly ask whether;
in this particular instance, the Finance Committee, : nomi-
mated on Friday evening by My Right Hon. Friend, the
dome Secretary, has not in its construction—in the prin-
ciples of economy that may he expeeted to proceed from
its Members—and in the investigation which it will,
doubtless, be enabled to make into the income and expen-
,neare of the country-1 fearlessly ask whether,
,in all

.......,.. ... ___ _ . .
these particulars- it does not appear, that the present
Government have :folly, honourably, and completely re-
deemed its pledge ?—(llear, hear, hear. ).--.lf you' call this
a tdedge, it is a pledge that has been rediemed,....,
(Hear, hear, hear.)—Sir, I have exhausted myself and
the House on the subject of explanations. I have given
a statement with respect to what pulsed at Liverpool, avid
Hon. Membere, I trust, • are satisfied. Having made this
-atattrnent, I now declare, that I shall. net be compelled ever.
;Again to reiterate it, or return to the subje ill:v. any means
which may be selected toforce me to do ii: -Them is one
more paint to which I am desiroes of a verting,hefere I
*lit down.. A question has been put to in cis another place,
where it is impossible that I could answer it. The quell:-
lion to which I allude is this—Whether I had not 'declared
shat I never would consent to forni part of an Adininistra.
-don, of which the Duke of Wellington or my Right Hon.
Friend near me (Mr. Peel) were Members ? Sir, I most
- • •
. ineqnivocally, moat positively, and moat distinctly deny
:het I ever did make such - a declaration: , Looking to the
quarter whence this question his been Prit-j—respe eting, as
'I do, the feelings of filial piety that 'dictated' it—and re-
vering with an almost:, equal degree of piety the memory
'of him whose fame the.feeling that dictated that qeestion
... _.
alas mistakenly intended to protect---a say no.more upon a
subject like the present, than to express my Opinion, that
matters-So entirely and purely of a private iultnre, this,
are not fit to undergo a -obn:discussion in Parliament.
This, which is my firm ionvictiOn; in addition to the ,
place and manner in which the '.luestion WWI put,. ren- '
ders it unnecessary for me to add araatiw word. Sir,' I
amwell aware that the necessary cense9.lzence of the
course of policy I.hay.e.adopted—and the natural gesult of
the principles I have long ha-sn in the habit of advocating—
',ls to expose my character to'olikisny, and niy motives to
'misrepresentation, by two opposite classes of the community.
That part of it which Considers all improvement as dangerous
iamovation, are naturally opposed to me. That other por-
tion of the public which, looking
.Only at' abstract piaci-
plee, never allows for the existence, and avert of artificial
.difficulties, and 'which alwairr. (.4rlooks the obstacles that
stand in ale way of the Epplication of 'tlios.:, principles—
whether theae--oheta.clee grow out of the ON istinz state: of
society, its established feelings, or (if you will)" its honest
but unwise prejudices-=this part also is hostile to a mode-
rate and practical reformer. t have endeavoured to 'steer a
middle course, and I know that:. i Int 4 been despised and
erensnred by the zealots of both, Rift, tie bog. as I shall
..}gave the honour tovetaie a'seat inlllis.tihio.long .as
I shall have a place in file' i.f.cieiiiiC intliircilf;lti,l4 he-
faverned by the same principles aictru4'nnglitcli J hive
hitherto acted: And, Sir",' I iiipecti. ILireesiptriiiani: my
Noble and Right Hon.,- Friends '224 .rallkepea,ua Aloe.
their countenance undt surportlcifticise'kinciplee and Ines-
_mire, which I consider beneficial' to tht.'S.tafe,, le' lokg as
they shall appear equally beneficial in the opinion of my
Friends and le.olleagnes. If that slippert he relhied„ nino'
what course to follow. I hold that a F4lllic man'is not at
libeity to refuse to obey the rail of his Soregigz, or deprive,
the State of his services, provided that there be
,noakipp in:
the nature of that call, of in'thstexertiortlfllieiervr,ect,i,
inconsistent with hiSliiriOnal horeauratitila;:lz.itli
his political character: '. 'SIM feel myseinjtitisituated,and
.therefore have' I- olieyd the' eill'of mf: goila-- RIO,. 1. I: feel
bat the honour Which 1 enjoptiliar§kint ,of his 414jetty'a
eonfidenre is far hey und my...h...i.mbre tiesetts. II am. per-
fectly aware of the great reopoitsibil4'littlile,„,,high. situa-
tion in which I have been placed,tripsfirshi.Rcndea.vour td '
4iseharge myself of it' aright. 'Thus honoured.,l,have no
more to seek—l have nn ferthei% degree of personal am:: '
bition to gratify. With' Idiani'iellage, increased intirluities :
and impaired strength,' r cniittlWilliogly desire to•avail mi.,l
self of the opportnnity of enjoying tranquillity awl. repose:; •
Public duty keeps ma in the sitnatkin where ilie will of
my gracious Master Ims placed hie; but -Yilieli I "find that _
i do not share the confidenea'and co-Opei:atleu an) y Col-
leagues, necessary to enable me to' execute my.ittuty, And'
carry into effect those measures' whieh the Pel4ic,interest
requires, I shall not fail to" avail myself of the refuge of
private life; I. shall not be skoz, by triyietirement, to
make the. Noble Duke at -the head of the Government,:
place the seals of tiny Department in-abler aid more efficient
hands.—(Cheers.) .
At the conclusion of the Right Hon.' Secretary's speech 1
there were loud calls for Mr. Herries. I I

Mr. • HERRIES then rose—[Thu Right Honourable
Gentleman's opening sentences we regret to say were parti-
ally inmedible, in consequence of the low tone of.yoice•in
which. they were delivered, and the noise occasirOuni by
strangers leaving the gallery.].--The "Right. Ilanouralate
Gentleman was understood 'to say :—I rise," Sir, in obedi-
tnce to the call of the House, in order to"eXplain some part
of my public conduct connected with the dissolution of the
late Zabinet, which may appear to require explanation. I
should be reluctant under any' circumstances, other than
those created by 'a call' o imperative, to trouble the House
on the presetst subject. 'Rut as it has been thought that
some circumstances connected with the matter to which I
have alluded, affect nay character as a public man, an ex-
planation beconies the more necessary. I repeat, I ShOuld
not be easily induced to present Myself to the ITouse 1,4. the
purpose of offering that explanation, or disclosing trans..'
actions that have occurred between me and my Colleagues-1
in. the Cabinet, under different cireianstances, because I
hold that, generally speaking, such expiatatiorei and such
disclosures constitute a most pernicious practice, that
ought not to receive the cduntenance of "public men. j
Appeals of this sort are never made to the
public usj
a body, without' causing those' who make them ge-1
nerally to Giiffer ,in the-public esteem, and the oliblic
wheu they are folloWs 'thrn
dis-
approbation very properly.
made lightly, inconsiderately, or on- insufficient grounds, ,
Such statements, in addition to loieering us in the public:
opinion have the strongest tendency to aant among those
wlio'shCiold act in concert, harmony, and inks; t, in order
to carry on the public service--to .sow disunion ouil dim
trust among them—to render theni uselesi to the putefaa.
service, independently of lowering our characters, and
ing us in situations, the- most painful. There ere one or
awe Pclihtsola which I understand it is indispensaifiy
sary for me to offer an explanation. However. before I
proceed farther, I must express my surprise at some cir,
camstances Which I have learned this night for the first
time from the spee.ch of the Right Hon.Gentlentao who ha
just sat down. To these I shall come, after-having tou4lie
ed npon some previous retails which it is necessary to pre:.
rnise. The accusation Said et 'my door, -Which it is neces-
sary to refute, is two-fold-41rSt, tdi:at I have been the prin-
cipal cause of the dillsoHittilitit of the late Cabinet. Sir, if I
were She cause, which I deny, it does not f01.k.0.y that the
charge would involve me in. blame.
In affairs of this .pond
are often obliged to take parts utidar pecolin7circtuxll
stances, which they would willingly avoid, and become
the instruments in producing effects which they (1., not con-
template. • The having been the cause of break:ag up tea
C.ohinet.(sUpposing I was the eau of thatoeccurtAce---bitt
maintain I was not)
does not necessarily . . me id,
blame. Sir, I know it has been circulated ()or of doorsjl
that I hive so conducted myself as for flail
Aliest
suppoition that if was my deliberateto affinotr:ilitm
piodue,".
.disunion in the late Cabinet.. I state this in
an
broadest sense, because in all such came I think ;. the no
honourable, the wisest; and'lmity add, the sat: ways
deal with-charges made through the medium ol;
as if they were plain and direct accusations, : .1 tifaeal,.
with them to the utmost extent to which they 5, be car-
ried. I say, thereftire, my wish, and my o:.. et, to
frapple with them as aeensationsi and, not as me, intlll7lPl.,

Lions. Such then is the course I mean 65 adopt in the
statement lam about to make to the House. Sir, I say
then, there is no truth whatever in the allegation, that the
difficulties to which I have alluded, and which have been
ersoneously laid down as the exclusive cause of the dissolu-
tion of the late Cabinet, are to be attributed tome. I say
that the allegation, however and wherever it may be made,
so far as it relates to any unfair intention on my part, to
any stratagem that I have devised, and which involves the
supposidnn that I have deliberately' sought the dissolution
of the late Cabinet---upon the principle I have laid
down,. I will in no -way soften my language—l deny_
in. the most urtrptali#ed manner. I say, that the alle-
gation is altogether false, altogether unfounded, and.
altogether incapable of
,proof. !Sik,.. it has not. even,
the shadow of foundation. Now, my situation with respect
to this transaction,-relating to the appointment of a Cl)ni-
mitten of Finance, lam about to detail," as plainly and as
distinctly as I am able, and I will then haw. from those ule-
.
tails the inferences which I consider necessary. ' Sir,
haVe 'certainly given much of my time- and much' of say
attention to this subject.; I always considered such s mea-
sure as the aPpeintroent pf such a Committee most import-
ant and most useful, and es one ;nest certain to produce
benefiCial results to the financial affair 3 of the country. •I•
may perhaps be permitted to state a fact, of which,.
'although it is known to score who are present, many others
?nay be ignorant of. Sir, it is this-Tthat the some:Finance
Committee, upon the prospect ;of the: utihtiof which all
perscms a:ad parties are agreedis 'a measure of which I
myself had the honour topropose 'the institution. Sir,
proposed the appointment pf such a Committee to the late
Right TIOn. George Canning, he then
.htutrellor of the
Exchequer and head of the Adrninistratiomsahatiog indeed
previously,proposed 'it to the Government .which preceded
his. I appeal to my Right Honourable Friend who sits
near me, whether this` proposition did not- first originate
with me. I mention this feet inertly to „show, that I had,
a deep interest in this Committee--that the proposal for
its appointment did not come to me as to one who looked
upon it with iodifference but to one who anxiously and
earnestly desired that it should produce all thp public be-
nefit of which I conceive it capable. It is not, therefore,
to be Sapp,Oecd, that Iconid be careless with respect to any
'atter having referet\e-e to such a subject. ow,,,Sir, my
Right Hon. Friend, some time, *lot tberpiddle of Novem-
ber last, in conjunction with another Member of, the then
Government, considered-, the propriety of suggesting the
appointment of a' Noble Lord as the Chairman of that
Committee? haying first consulted ,the Wishes of the Noble
Lord then at the lad pi the Administration, and thole of
a. distinguished Member,"Wkithe.i? held the situation Which
now hold. As my Right Hon. Friend Ilia stated, in the
course of the communications which took Ogee between
him and the Noble Lord at' the head of the, Government,-
.
although sorue time after they Commenced,-the Noble Lord
asked, if I, to whose appointment matters of the kind more
peculiarly belonged, had been informed of the pending ars
mum-tants., . The answer was, that I had not; in conse-
quence of which the Noble. Lord expressed his regret—
stated it to be ruatter.of inapOrtattoe that I should be con-
sulted, and suggested the prEptiety oi o9uaioting me with
the circumstance forthwith. It appears from, what had
been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman-.and I am sure-
he stated the fact, according to his own impression of it—
that the oscasiop, two which the first communication re-
lative to this matter. was rode to pie, was appointed spe-
cially. Nor, I well remember that, as far 40 I was con-
cerned, it was a &lanai circumstance that made me an--
quainted with it. I called upon ray Right Hon. Friend upon
some other matters, and found that he was not et home. I
then left word that I wished to see him, and he subsequently
appointed a time to meet me at his house. I called again upon
him, but not having an istea that I had any subject to com-
municate with him upon, 11/".CP.p th4t with reference to
which I had directly gone to him in the first instance.. I saw
him, W in the course of conversation he informed me it
had been Juzgaggfl that Lord ,Althorp should be appointed
as Chairman of the Intended Finance Committee. The
subject was than mentioned to *re-; previously I had
never given the idea of appointing any particular Chair-
man a single thought.. I had, indeed, received many com-
municeal,ons upon the subject from various .persons, who
considered that / was the proper- individual to whom com-
munications were to be , roa.4,e; but . to'all such I declined
giving any answer, or, at least, i gave Ana answers as al-
ways avoided giving any pledge whatever on the subject.
When the proposition was first made to me, as to the ap-
pointment of-Lord-Mtherp as.. Chairman of the Commit-
tee, and:to his. comp.etette and fitness for the discharge of
;the dtities of -such an office, lam sure my Right Honour-
able Friend will bear me out in the assertion, that any first
expresSion was one of perfect respeet towards the charac-
ter of the Noble Lord, and o£. perfect willingness to act
'with him, either in that capacity or in • any other. -My
Right Hon. Friend will do me. the justice to state, that
such was the first expression of my feelings, in answer to
a communication which I did not then think of so much
importance as I subsequently considered -it to be. A Right
Hon. Gentleman, the late Master of the Mint, entered soon
afterwards, when he adverted -to the same subject as that
mentioned by my Right Hon. Friend, are; appeared as if
had been prepared with some papers relative to it. Our.
_convpation was-not longs, and it turned mote upon the
„objects oldie pemmittee than upon the nature of its forma-
:don,. `''hg intieview-termioated, in consequence of the en-
trance. of at corson-upon other bitsittets. Upon returning
horse,;however; ant: reflecting deliberately open what had
;taken, place, and upon: the various 'branches of • the
4ropertant - cnbject, doubts as to the propriety -of the
:ceorse, that.:- had fwn adopted strongly suggested
themselves to any mind, and I lost no time in
acquainting the head of the AdMinietration with
my feelings and. impressions upon it. The next Morning,
,at ten o'clock, I waited upon him, after having reflected
.more maturely on the matter,• and to him Ittated my ex-
.treme.,re.gret that a step had been taken, 'which I consi-
dered was not likely to promote the success of contem-
-plated Committee of Finance. Sir, I did-not confine
rpy-
self merely to the principle that the step which had 'been
taken yea not the best, but I did also remonstrate- with
my Noble tried as to the manner in which I appeared to
have. been treated. It was quite impossible entirely to
have lost sight of personal feeling:---it was quite impos-
sible for me, with any regard for ns,y own honour or cha-
racter, to have passed unnoticed a circumstance in whish
I conceived that both were nearly concerned. I did dwell
upon this in my interview- with the. Noble. Lord. Sir,
having refeserace to the situation which I then held—such
was ray-course of argument—it was necessary, indeed it
was unavoidable, that I. shoW4 be jealous-s-peettliarly jeer
lous—that I should .be . peculiarly bound to watch -with
jea:teis care the dignity and the character of tits Office con-
fided to eac., it could not have escaped my attention, that
there were soma individuals who 'had opposed themselves
appoinment to Shat office in a way—but I will not
allude to It—l will banish the recollection from my mind,
except to state that their opposition - cce;trihuted to render
me
,pecoliarly jealous of any interference With ale •D• my
official datiea,,and I will add, that if I had not been so,
should have heva gpfit to hold the high and'responsible
lace, the duties' of which I was called upon to
discharge. . Upon snore mature reflection, then, - I
was induced to think seriously that my reputation
and ant honour' were at stake. I Went to Lord-
Goderioua and, I did- state to him -my objections upon-
..
personal and ppon -public grounds—public- grounds,
to which I mean presently to advert relative to the
transaction which haul been, the night before, communi-
cated to me. lam bound to state, that my Noble Friend
expressed his regret at the course that hat!' be' ruined,
appeared tp feel that some wrong had been done, which h
was anxious to ,Ecpair, and in the reparation of which no
time ought to be lost—or in ascertaining what course could
he...adopted with reference to the objections which I had so
fully stated. Sir, there were then witnessta present, one
of whom is now in this House, who will bear testimony to
the way in which my abieetioas•were urged and received.
I lost no time in endeavouring to see my Right Hon.
l:lietid.,.with a view to explain-tny sentireenat fully to him ;
but attlaoiagh I sought him early, the meeting ilia net take
plain
.some time after, in consequence of the absence
of nip Right Hon. Friend. I then wrote to him a letter,
_explanatory of my feelings, unti• while I was finishing that
letter I received from him a corentunination, ILdoming hie
,that he had returned to his office. • In consettuenee of-this
information, I bad an interview with him, at which''told
hips, in general terms, my public and personal objections to
the comae he had pursued, and to the choice he had made.
On ray return from that interview, feeling it was necessary
.for me to do something more to dislodge the bUrden from
my mind, I finished my letter, and closed it by stating that
I thought..
.t right, notwithstanding our verbal commu4.
-to make my protest in every way, and that'
he
.shod have my written protest, as the most plaini
distinct', and certain, that
Right Hop: Vriepd, a letter which
I could give. - Sir, l•received
satisfactory--it Na iodeed, suchwthase nuaextmd: as
day" from ;y eti
his:* regret that either'
expected him.- He stated .
he or Lord Goderich should have done any.thing of which I
„might have-had- a right to coroplaim'aud he inclosed me the
.copy °fa ktter which he had written to thentster of the Mint,
requesting that no further proceedings:roEight be taken
with reference to the appointment of a Chairman of the
Finance Committee,. and that great caution might be used
in all that respected it.. A few days afterwards my Right
lion. Friend chewed me a letter which he bad received;
in reply, from the Master of the Mint, dieet,Uning his
having gone so far as was at first imagined. Now, Sir,
say that at this period of the transaction I was perfertl),

justified in concluding that nothing further would be done
without consulting me. I objected to the steps that hal
been taken, upon grounds not of personal dislike to
the, nomination of Chairman of the Finance Com-
mittee, to this person or to that—no, I objected to the
appointment of Lord Althorn upon grounds quite different
—were they right or wrong, they were such as I had adop-
ted, and having stated my objections--having lodged my
protest—my written protest--and having received an as-
surance on the part of my Right Hon. Friend—whom I
did not expect would interfere in affairs which were
mine, or that he would interfere unduly with the. duties of
my office—having, I say, received an assurance from my
Right Hon. Friend that proceedings should be 'stayed, I
abstained from entering into further communications on
the subject; but I thought that some communication
ought to be made by me. I thought this would be
the more becoming course, and I paused to await the re-
sult. But, within three or four days after I received the
last assurance contained in the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman's letter, there commenced a series of proceedings
which eventually led to the abdication of the head of the.
Cabinet, And now, I ask, if it would have been thought
well in me, when the Government was in a state of
agony, or when it was actually after" its dissolution-,
whether it-would, indeed, have been any thing but absurd
in me to have mooted anew this question yelative to the
Finance Committee? and to' have Mooted it to a Govern-
ment that might, probably, neVer have aught to do with
the subject. I was thus, Sir, held in suspense from the 2d
to the 21st. of December—ray Right Hon. Friend calls it
the 266, beeause he then first saw my letter, and during
this great intetval, I ask, was it possible for me, except
during the first four or five days, to have proposed any
thing? I appeal to the House whether I could have pro-
posed any thing relative to this Finance Committee. To
whom was I to have addressed any such communication?
How was Ito have worded it? But as it was drawing
near the time when something was to be done, I did
write a letter to my Noble Friend Lira Goderich, and I
think I must request permission that that letter_ may be
read. The House will observe, in order to guard itself
against misconception, that . circumstances had occurred
which led me to think that a general misunderstanding ex-
isted, which was not unlikely to lead to a misunderstand-
ing afterwards. There may be some who are Acquainted
with those circumstanese44 Wa4 not confidently intrusted
with them--and I merely speak to my personal observa-
tion. Under these cirqmstances, ; represented to the
then head of the Government the situation in which I stood
with reference to this Finance Committee, and I wrote to
my Lord Goderich the following letter
(COPY.) Downing.street, Dec. 21, 1 sr.
" 4y dear podoriO,
" It is now full time that some further steps should be
taken with respect to the Committee of Finance.
" It would, I believe, naturally be my duty to bring that
subject under the consideration of the Cabinet ; hut after
what has passed,(and I advert to it with pain), I feel that
it is not at present in my hands. I must, therefore, leafs
from you, ai head of the. Government, what is the course to
be pursued for the formation of this Committee, and the
regulation of its preceedings.
" What has hitherto been done in this matter has taken
place without consultation or communication with me;
although it would seem to belong principally to my depart-
ment of the public business. A negotiation has been
carried on, and completed by Mr. Tierney, with your sanc-
tion and that of Mr. Huskisson, for the nomination of the
Chairman of the Committee.
The Government is, I presume, fully committed to the
individual cured upon fot• the purpose, and to the Noble
Family of which he is a Member; and this proceeding, as
I am given to understand, has been adopted. with a view,
in a great measure, to a political object, and as being calcu-
lated to strengthen the hands of the Administration.
" I doubt lunch whether that view be correct, and whe-
ther the calculation be a just one. But I hare an objection
to the arrangement upon a much higher ground. I con-
ceive that, in order to derive, in the utmost possible de-
gree, from this important measure, all the public benefit
which it is capable of affording, and at the same time to
avoid the inconveniences to which h is liable, all political
views of the narrower kind—all those Oich are connected
with particular parties and influences only—should be ut-
terly discarded in the formation of the Committee.
" It appears to me that these objects would IT 'best se-
cured if the Committee were composed of the most emi-
nent individuals of the severs] parties in the House of Com-
mons, and the Chair filled by some person of high charac-
ter and respectability, either entirely unconnected, or con
meted as little as possible, with any of the political parties
into which the House is divided.

4', Whether this be a proper view of this subject, and
whether, if it be so, you could yet proceed upon such a
principTe, you and Huskisson are best able to judge. Ido
not feel that I could act in it upon any other. In order,
therefore, to relieve you from any ditilculty, as connected
with my situation, respecting the course which you may
deem it expedient to pursue, I beg to assure you that if by.
putting my office into other hands you can more satisfacto-
rily execute this difficult and delicate measure, you may
co►nmapd my' most ready and cheerful resignation of it.
I place it (and I beg it to be understood as being done in
the moat friendly manner) entirely at your disposal. •
(Sinned) " J. C. HERRIES."
Now, Sir, I ask the House if there were any manifesta-
tion of improper designs in this letter. My object was to
state the case as I felt it to exist. Sir, it was for-the
Noble Lord, whom I thus addreSsed, to deny any part of
that which I had assumed as fact. it was for him, if the
principle I had laid down did not contain insurmountable
objections, to have stated what other principle he would
recommend—but, Sir, in answer to this letter I received
no denial of the facts I had stated—none of uty objections
were attempted to be overruled.—the only answer I re-
ceived was a declaration on the part of the Noble Lord,
that I was mistaken in a great degree as to the part he had
taken in the proceedings. My Noble Friend merely stated
to me, that the proposition for the appointment of a Chain-,
man of the firlause committee arose in the course of con-
versation, and not out of any deitised plan. I will read
the letter I received from the Noble Lord :—.

" My dear Herries—l received your letter of the 21st,
and I agree with you 'that the time is at hand when it will
become necessary to consider the direction of the Finance
its bearings, with a view to the public
good, and the satiafaeiiiiii of all partiei.,:. When Mr. !Ins-
kisson returns to town, this matter must be hroUght to a
final issue. I owe it, however, to myself to say; that you
have greatly misconceived the degree in which I was a
party to the nomination of Lord Althoip, to fill the chair
of that Committee, " thought I had sufficiently explained
to yoy yerhally; that I conceived the communication to be
nothing more than cainal,'"aMl I regret that it was made.
When Mr- Tierney suggested to tne the 'appointment of
Lord Althorn, I said it was .a proposition that ought to be
well considered,, but from my regard for the individual,
and my old friendahip towards him, I was disppsed towards
it, The matter ended here. When Mr. Tierney after-
wards mentioned the circumstance again, I said, that if
the Members of the House of Commons inclined to his
nomination, I should not object, but that it could not be
acted on without a consultation with the. Government.
When I subsequently understood from Mr. Huskision that
a sort ,of communicatipp hall beep made to Lord Althorn'
on the. subject, my first, inqpiry was, as to whether you
had beep spoken to on the subject, and to my great sur-
prise, I was given to understand you never had. I then
thought it right to state, that you were a party to, whom
direct rererence should be made. With respect tothe lat-
ter part of your letter, iu which you place your office in
my "hands, .1 cannot conceive that you have. made out a
Case to justify you in w proceeding ; but I hope . that you
will take no steps until an opportimity has keen given for
bringing the whole matter under full consideration:
(Signed) " GODERICH."-
. -Sir, I haye i-es.d this letter with ,a view to show..that it
Contained no answer to my objections but on those terms
I was willing to wait. I desired that• no further steps
shOuld then be taken by.me ; indeed none could be taken,
for what further could I do, after having thus conditionally
tendered my resignation ? tpt I am now come to a cir-
Tcunistance of seine importance. The next communication
I had was, personally, with my. Noble Friend at the head
of the Administration ; this was on the 29th of December.
On 'that day the Noble Lord entered npon the subject with
Sitie,"and in the, course of our conversation he requested to
know from me distinctly, whether I intended to resign in
the event of Lord Althorp being appointed Chairman of
the Finance Committee.
.111 y answer .was, that I was not
giying in my resignation, but merely stating the grounds
Nil which alone.l could continue tp hold office., It was for
hiS Lordship to sayi whether he would continue to make
use of Me in my capieity of one of his Administration..
But Inni bound to say, that there was never the slightest
"'attempt it explanation never the slightest attempt to
'adjust the differences that existed--never the slightest at..
tempt to diwuss the Merits of the matter in dispute—
never the slightest attempt to ascertain whether any means
could be taken to satisfy the wishes of both parties in the
dispute. I "was merely asked "simply, do Yon or do you not
resign? and my answer was, look to my letter, and you
Will there see the grounds I have stated. If, however, I
had been told at this time of what I afterwards ascer-
tained, that my Right Hon. Friend had at that very time,t
and on' those' very grounds, tendered his resignation,--it
might have Made a most important difference in the way in
which.l shoUld have acted. I was then, Sir, in utter,
ignorance' of any gook fact. I did not even know that tnyt

Right Hon. Friend had made so decided a point of this
matter. It was not, indeed, until the sth of January, that
I learnt, for the first time, my Right Hon. Friend made
his remaining with the then Administration to depend
upon this point. I did not understand, from what I
was at first told, that the agreement that had been entered
into was of such a nature, that it could not have been
relinquished. I was told the reverse; and I said in
answer, " if that be so, it is still open to discussion; let
us therefore discuss it; if the negotiation be net quite closed,
let us consider it." It was then I was told in answer to
that, though not quite closed, the understanding was such,
that it must be considered as quite closed, and that, there-
fore, it was not open to discussion.—(Hear, hear.) l.et
any Hon. Member of this House put himself in my situa-
tion—let any man of honour and feeling be placed in it_
and he would have acted as I did.—(Cheers.) If I had
been told that the matter was concluded, I should have
had nothing to say to the refusal to discuss it with me; but
to be told that it was not concluded, and that it should not
be discussed with me; that no examination would be en-
tered into, was a thing it was absolutely impossible I should
pass over.—(Hear.) Never would I hold office with any
man on such conditions.--(Hear.) In order, Sir, to shbw
the feeling under which I acted; that it was not one of
hostility, but one of confidence and openness toivards my
Right Hon. Friend, I have only to state to the House one
,fact: I had seen the Noble Lord at the head of the Go..
vernment shortly before writing this letter, and had a long
conversation with him on this subject, but not one word
was ever mentioned to me at that or any other time, of the
intention of my Right Hon. Friend to resign. I have
learnt it this night for the first time. I had not the
slightest suspicion of it.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
myself, in answer to the question put to me, "do you per-
sist in resigning, if so and so takes place?" I again said,
"look to my letters; if you have any thing new to propose
to me, I am ready to discuss it; if you have any point
you wish to examine with me bring it forward, I am ready
to examine it ; but if you merely put the question as to
whether I do or do not adhere to what I have already said,
my answer is, "I do adhere to it,"—(Hear, hear.)
Notwithstanding that reiterated 'verbal declaration of my
adherence to what I at first declared, my Noble
Friend- requested me to send him a letter expressive
of my determination. What I had communicated to him
verbally I had no objection to let him have in writing. I
*cordingly, within half an hour of the time of his making
the request, wrote him thus:—
" Dear Goderich-1 have as you"'
(Cries of "Date ! ")—lt is dated 7th January.
" I have, as you requested in your last letter (and as I
promised in my answer. that I would), carefully reconsi-
dered the subject ofmy letter of the 21st of December. I
regret to be compelled to state, that the reconsideration so
bestowed upon it has not conduced to any alteration of the
judgment which I had previously formed and commu-
nicated to you. The question at issue, and upon which
your judgment, not mine, is to be formed, is obviously not
the mere nomination of Lord Althorp. That nomination
cannot be treated as an insulated point, disconnected from
the circumstances under which it was determined upon, and
the mannerin which it was settled ; nor (which is of much
more importance) can it be fairly considered without refer-
ence to the principles by which I have stated that I think
every step in the formation of the Committee of Finance
ought to be guided. In your last communication to me,
you gave me to understand that I had been mistaken in
supposing that a conclusive engagement with Lord Als
thorp had heels made. It appears from your view of the
matter, that little mere had been dove than to ascertain
that Lord Althorp wlifild'undertake the office. If such be
the case, I cannot but observe that it renders the positive
determination to adhere peremptorily to that choice, and
even to refuse alfdisenssion of the reasons -upon which I
think a different course oughtto be pursued, not only more
unintelligible to me, hut more difficult for me to acquiesce
in. I should `have thought that it might, upon such
grounds, have Still been an open question. Let me take
this opportunity of renewing the assurance which I have
already given you, that your determination, as the result of
your judgment in this matter, to advise the King to con-
fide to other hands the seals which Inow hold, will not
have the slightest tendency to diminish the friendship which
I feel both for you and for Huskissoo ; nor to abate the
sincere wishes which I entertain for the future success of
your administration, I feel that where parties of such un-
equal weights are placed, by an unfortunate concurrence of
circumstances, in two opposite scales, there ought not to
he a moment's hesitation (with reference to the interests of
the Government) in Po disposing of me as to retain the in-
valuable services of our common friend."—(Continned and
loud cheering.) -
Does this, Sir, show a wish unnecessarily to embarrass,
much less to overturn, the Government.—(Hear.)--It was
and is my tificere conviction, that I could not have aban-
doned that point without abandoning a great public prin.
ciple, and making an unjustifiable sacrifice of personal cha-
racter.—(Hear, bear.)--In this place 1 feel myself called
upon, in the most distinct terms, to disclaim ever having
entertained any thing like a personal objection to the Noble
Lord in question. In every part-, in revery stage of the

diseussion, I disclaimed to the Noble Loni with whom I

was officially connected, any opposition to the appoint-
ment on personal groornh. It is now necessary that I ad-
vert to the public grounds on "which I Consider myself
bound to act—as I did act. I conceived that the person
appointed to fill the situation in question, to be of that high
degree of utility which the country have a right to ex-
pect from hitt, ought to be• chosen from among those
who are the 'least connected with any distinct or pal.-
ticular party in the country. It will happen that the
Chairman of that Committee will have to hold the ba..
lance, in which there will be Weighed many points
of vast interest to- the country, in which. this
House is itself divided in opinion, That a man likely to
be placed in such a situation, ought not to be chosen from
among the proininent leaders of a party, I think will be
conceded to me. And if there is a person, however dis-
tinguished may be his talents, and excellent his private
character, who among those leaders has upon one or two
material points, likely to come under the consideration of
that Committee, pledged himself by declarations; `repeated
declarations, in the strongest manner, to take a particular
course on those points, I should say that that individual,
above all others, would be the 'most disqualified for the
situation. • No matter, I repeat, how estimable he may be
in other respects ; nay, no matter how eligible he may be,
bid for the circuinstanCe of having given these pledges, I
say that' men Without that objection, with muck less shin-
ing talenta, would be far better qualified to fill the situa-
tion I have alluded to. There is one point to which the
public are looking with anxiety, I may say intense anxiety
—I mean What it may be proposed to decide upon in this
House with respect to the SiolciogTund. • There are some
who attach the greatest importance to its preservation,
whilst there were others who looked upon it as a ridiculous
farce, without utility or 'object. I will not now stop to
state what my opinion Upon the subject is, but thus far I
will say, in passing, that no plan in this House can be
more hostile to keeping tip. the sinking fund by borrowing
than am.-4 Hear, heat.)=Bizt; on the other hand, the
principle for maintaining a real surplus revenue, for the
purpose of using it 'as a sinking fund, is one ow
whose soundness the House is divided, and upon which
each party entertains eiceedingly :strong opinions. Now,
that was an exceedingly important question, on'which the
Committee will have to decide ; and would it be well that
its Chair Man should be pledgedas to which wgy his judgment
was to incline—should be pledged to decide against the main-
tenance of that fund. Thii, however, is the case with the
Noble Lord in question, for I heard him myself declare,
and' he' called upon others to say, whether they had per-
ceived any leaning in him to a contrary opinion that he
was decidedly hostile to the principle of the sinking fund,
Now, I conceive,. that that sort of declaration, and I men-
tion it as frankly hereis I did to my noble colleagne, upon
points of such deep importance, render the individtial, who
makes it less eligible for the particulai situation of which
I have been speaking-, than almost any' other Man. This
is one of the public reasons whielil think justified me in
Opposing that Noble Lord's nomination to the appointmitit.
There are others of some importance to which I Will not
further advvrt on this occasion than to say," that one of
them was the prominent situation occupied by the' Noble
Lord in what I must call, the present state of the coun-
try, and of opinions in this 'House, one of the extreme par-
tiesplai
poedf thtleptshteat;cithel
thbaevereanotot
ofl itrhnest,eouarasteisofafccutornidlyucezi
pursued, et, as to leat-Pe no doubt on the minds. of any of to
whom I have the hoittidief addressing myself, of theie being
no delay that rests with me, hi my making my etiminunic47
postponen spread
tient betweeri the Atilt 11410/ledge Iliad oft he circuthstanc4s
merteit,:notning to
relating to the imiiitiifin'ent'Of Chairthan tO the Finance
committee, ind the letter of' the -21st of Dec., w,
..hich
nthriewlorlotubs;.s:nsplictilsst tehillchoush
apeva
abroa.d as to the motives by which I was actuated in the line
of conduct I adopted. I trust it is evident that there was,
Itiasvteirvretadh6tese
in the interview. I have described to the Honse, nothing
that bears the-appearance of design an tOy
the renewal of the inbject, in Order to tbwarethe arrange
ment of measuresto prevent the dissolution of the Cabinet:
I have, I trust, shewn that I have acted fairly, in explain/
ing the grounds upon which my renewed application oti
the subject was made. From that explanation, the House
must have seen how little encouragement I had to dice
the subject With a view to any other conclusion bein
come to, and that that most material point, relating t
the resignation of my 'Right honourable Friend, wag pOsii

tively not made known to me. From these facts, lam
obliged, on my part, to draw this conclusion, viz, that
owing to certain circumstances which had shaken the Go-
vernment to its foundations before the 21st, when I wrote
the letters I have read to the House, nay, which had led to
its dissolution (I think I may use the word), before that
time, which, to my extreme surprise, and very deep regret,
my Noble Friend in another place, in giving his account of
the causes of that dissolution, omitted to make any mention
of. I say that circumstances were known before the Slst,
to those connected with the Government, which made them
foresee the dissolution that was about to take place. I
further say that this letter and proceeding of mine was
taken advantage of, as a convenient opportunity for doing
that which must sooner or later have happened.—(Hear,
hear.)—l say that I know it was so taken advantage of.—
(Reiterated cheers.)—l say that I know it was discussed
whether my letter should not be made use of in the manner
it has.—(Cries of hear, and some confusion.),-1 will speak
out plainly in my own defence; sink or swim, I will
defend myself. With all the respect I entertain for Lord
Goderich—with all my friendship for him, I must, when
his conduct, by an unfortunate concurrence of circum-
stances, calls my character and honour in question, defend
myself in the best manner my situation will allow me, I
say then, that no Minister could take such a trifling fact as
this—(Hear, bear)—such a paltry subject of difficulty—.
(Great cheering)—as this to the foot of the throne, and
leave it there as a difficulty and embarrassment, unaccom-
panied by any advice as to the removal of it without vir-
tually giving in his own resignation of office at the same
time.—(Loud cheering. )—I hope I have not in the warmth
of debate infringed upon the rule I laid down for myielf
starting; for I, think that a man connected with Govern-
ment ought, to be cautious that he does not, in making his
defence, declare more than is strictly and absolutely neces-
sary for that purpose. I hope the House will think that I
have not said more than i 9 necessary for that purpose.._.
(Hear, hear:)—But I feel that if I were to pursue this
subject further "I should transgress the limits I have un-
posed on myself, and which I hold it a sacred obligation-
not to pass. My vindication then I will confine to two
points: First, that my conduct was not the cause of the
dissolution of the Ministry ; and second, that throughout
the whole transaction there was not a part of it which:
euinced even a design to effect that objeet. It will
require very little evidence to rove the impossibility
of its having been my design ; indeed, in my opinion,
it wants no evidepce that any man's common. sense
will not furnish him with. It is from the exercise of
that common sense that the whole, country has come
to the conclusion of the impossibility of my haying,
effected what has been attributed to me. An individual
recently introduced into the Government, under circum-
stances to which I will not advert, further than by saying,
that great objections were raised to his introduction, and
three months after, on his offering his resignation, that
mere circumstance is sufficient to dissolve the Cabinet. Is
it possible that any man can believe such a case can occur?
If is absurd upon the very face of it--(hear);.-Land yet
this the very case that is now imagined. There is one
other subject to which I wish to call the attention of the
House before I close, what I conceive to be a complete vin-
dication of my conduct and character on this occasion..--,
(Cheers. )—lt has been pretended, in some unworthy in-
sinuations thrown out against me, not only that I design-
edly managed my resignation, so as to produce the effect it
is asserted to have produced, but likewise that I did it in
consequence of some communications between myself and
some other parties. It was stated in some public papers,
having, unfortunately, too much the reputation of being
connected, by their editors, with persons of the highest
Consideration on the other side of the House—it was stated
by them, in terms sufficiently clear to allow no doubt of their
meaning, that I have had communications with parties out of
the Cabinet, one of the parties being those friends, with
whom I was connected in the former Administration ; and
another, (the insinuation was in words the meaning of
which-admit of nn mistake), the highest quarter to which,
such communications could be made. (Hear, hear.) I
declare, upon my word of honour, 83 a gentleman—l de-
clare, as I hope to be saved—that I never had any com-
munication with any individual out of the official circle of
which I was a part, to which all communications on
official subjects ought to he, and are, confined.—(Cheers.)
I received no advice from any person, nor did I, on my
word of honours—(My Right Hon. Friend near use ad-
vises me not to speak on the subject, but I think it right
and fit I should speak)—nor did I, on my word of honour,
make the least communication in the,bigh quarter alluded
to ; nor do I believe that any of the passing, circumstances
were known there till they were made, known by nay Noble
Friend. That I believe; but with respect to myself, I
can solemnly affirm that there exists pot the ehadow of .a
reason for the insinuation that has been thrown out against
me on that point. Lheve now nothing., more to trouble
the House with—nothing but to thank it fon the patience
and kindness with which they have listened to me. (The
Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheers from.
all sides of the House.)
Mr. TIERNEY—The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
is 'very much mistaken if he alluded to me, as having on a
former occasion originated a debate of this kind.; and I beg
to assure him that such, a thought never entered my mind.
Perhaps my having asked on what day the Right Hon.
Gentleman would take his seat, might have led him to
think it; but all I wanted to know,for was, that I might
not be absent from the House, when what I expected. to' be
said was said. With respect to the, facts that have been
stated by the Right. Una. Gentleman in the other House,
as far as they relate to myself they are tolerably correct,
but not quite so ; therefore, I think myself called upon to
supply the deficiencies they have left. Early in November,
I suggested to Lord Goderich the propriety of naming my
Noble Friend near me (Lord Althorp), to be Chairman of
the CoMmittee of Finance. I did it, as has been truly
stated, with the avowed object of strengthening the Go-
vernment; ,an object I thought I could not better attain
than by proposing as Chairman of that Committee one pf
the most intelligent Members of this House. The Right
'Hon. Gent. opposite says, I ought to have selected some per-
son unconnected with party; now, it happened that Lord
Al thorp had not avowed himself of any party, for he had never
given his support to the late Government, as his friends,
composing the party to which he is supposed to belong,
did.—(Floar, hear.)--Lord Goderich's answer to my sug-
gestion was such as he has very accurately reported it.
He said, that he thought most highly of Lord. Althorp as
a man of business and talent, that in the early part of
his life he was in the habits of great intimacy with him,
and made no doubt that he was well qualified, or the si-
tuation, and would do the public good service in it; but
that as it conerned those in the House of Commons more
than it did him, I had better consult the then Government
leader in the Lower House (the Right Hon. Secretary for
the Colonies), and that to whatever he agreed,' he should
give his consent. I accordingly did consult with the Right
lion. the Secretary for the Colonies, and understood that
my proposal
met his
conceiving,mo that,tcordial fortified
approbation.as
wasm might
have been
the approbation of the First Lord of the Treasory and of the
Secretary for the Colonies, I had sufficient warrant in taking
something like a step towards the accomplishment of the oh
jest I had in view. I may, have been wrong in what I did,
but I beg to say, that I had not the slightest idea of giving
offence to the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, and
if I have unintentionally done so, I most sincerely beg his
pardon.—(Hear, hear.) I did not dream that what I was
doing was bringing the matter to any conclusion, bu

merely thought I was laying the foundation for something
which would afterwards turn out of great public service.
Having then the two concurrent opinions I have mentioned,
I consulted Lord Spencer, conceiving him to be a man not
likely to make any improper use of any communications I
might make to him, and requested him to ask my Noble
Friend, whether, in the event of the situation being offered
him, he would accept it. I thought it right to take this
previous step, as thinking I should make a very foolish
figure, if, after recommending a person to my colleagues, as
fit for the situation, they were to offer it to him, and he
should decline accepting it. In consequence of, the com-
munication made by Lord Spencer to my Noble Friend
near nie (Lord Althorp), I received, first a message from
him, and afterwards a letter. By the letter the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Herries) must s.e, that
it was quite impossible that any conclusive stops could
have been taken. This letter was not hidden front the Right
Hon. Gent., on the contrary, an
extract was given to him,
which ought to have convinced him of the fact, of nothing
conclusive having taken place. The letter was written on
the 3d or 4th of Dec., and the extract given the Right HO-
nourable Gentleman was this :—" I write you, in conse-
luence of your message brought me by Lord Spencer.
understand by your message to me, that you have thoughts
of proposing to your colleagues that I should be asked to
take the office of Chairman of the Finance Committee, hut
that you wished to know if I would accept the oifer, if it
were made." Surely, Sir, this ought not, as it has, to be
considered as direct proof of the situation having been
offered. I can assure the House, that nothing was said tif,
Lord Althorp of a more definite nature than may be
gathered from his letter, had then been proposed to him,
On the 28th of November, I called at the office of thi
Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies, and there I fount',
that Right Hon. Gentleman and the then Chancellor of tho
Exchequer sitting together in conversation. When I ap;
peared, the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies said ti
me, " I am glad you are come, for the Chancellor of th 4
Exchequer and hale been talkintoie:the.iioa4ar of the
Finance Commitite.w. Ido not preii4d#:.Blir hitYe a
~.„

very gao4'43emqry As'to parfiCiilltr Words used in comfit!**
tion, but I think, if I am not much mistaken, the Right
Hon., Secretary added—s? We have been talking of the er
pointment of Lord Althorp to be Chairman of it, and be
most cordially concurs in it." I believe I can appeal to tee
Right Hon. Gentleman for a confirmation of the correctneo
of the statement.
Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON—I concur with you; I
certainly think I said so.--(Loud cheers.).
Mr. HERRIES—I concur also, except as to the word'
most cordially." I concurred, but not cordially.-'
(Continued cheering.)
Mr. TIERNEY—Very well, then ; the Right HO;
Gentleman concurred without cordiality.—(A .laugh.)
then produced -a list of 67 or 68 names of Gentlemen,
taken from all sides of the House. I told nartesghs Hoe.
Friend that I thought he, would-find it convenient to make
his selection of the committee from that list. I certaiall
could not have judged verywrongly as to who were fit and
proper persons to be chosen; 'for there.is not one Member
of the present Committee that was not on that list. TO
conversation lasted but a short time, and I went nest
.morning to Brighton; and had I met any person on the
road with. whom I might have been at liberty to talk upo°
the subject, I should have told him that I had the appro-
bation of the Prime Minister, of the Secretary for the Co-
lollies, and of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to the ap-
pointment of Lord Althorp to be Chairman of the 0010-
mittes. Such was my impression of what I thought the
sentiments of these Members of the Cabinet.-.4lleart
hear.) In consequence of my having left town, and the
delay of a letter at my residence here, I heard no further eo
the subject till the let of December, when I received the
letter that has been alluded to by my Right. Hon. Friend
opposite. In that letter the name of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer was not once mentioned, nay, not even alluded
to by my Right Hon. Friend. This is material, because I
now understand that letter was written in consequence of
his suggestion. My Right Hon. Friend merely told me
that it might be inconvenient for the list I had to be shown
about, and that he wished the subject bad not been men-
tioned to Lord Althorp, and at any rate to take no further
steps till the time for the meeting of Parliament drew nearer.
I have not the letter with me, but that, to the best of toY
recollection, was the substance of it. Not a word sv"
there concerning the Chancellor of the Exchequer. 1
wrote in answer that I had not shown the list to any pet"
son whatever, and that no one had made aniapplications to
be put upon the Committee (for that was one of the in-
conveniences my Right Non. Friend expressed n-fear-in hi'
letter) and that, as far as Lord Althorp was concerned, no-
thing conclusive had passed between him and me; and that
I had not communicated with him since the last conversa-
tion I had with him (my Right .Hon. Friend, the Secre-
tary), at his office. ' That letter, which was dated on the
2d or 3d, I showed to the Right Hon. Gentleman on the
4th, from which it was impossible that he could conclude
that any further arrangement had been made respecting
the affair. That could not, therefore, have furnished fin=
with a ground for his resignation. But the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself admits that he had acted under a cer-
tain degree of soreness, and alluded, in some distant terms,
to what took place on his admission into the Cabinet. I
candidly confess, that I was one of those who objected to
his admission into the Cabinet ; but, from the moment
that he did become a member of it, I am sure that even the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself will say, that he received
from me as cordial, as hearty, and as sincere co-operation
and consideration, as did any other of our colleagues.--
(Hear.)—lle says also, that he believes that there had been
a great deal of underhand dealing between my Right Hon.
Friend. and myself. But I assure the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman; on my word, that the only conversation that passed
bet Ween my Right Honourable Friend and mytielf, ort
the subject, took 'place en the 19th of November, after
the Cabinet dinner—that the meeting of the 28th of No-
vember; and the letter, were the only three, occasions ma
which I ever referred to the subject, exclusive, certainly.
of the 'meeting of the 9th of January, which was after the
Government had been deatrfour and' twenty - hours.—(A
laugh.) I can very readily believe that the Right lion.
Gentleman felt sorpriie at bearing that we had never hear&
of the dissolution of the Government previously; for be
certainly had no reason to know, or even to suspect, that
we had any disposition to retire or to resign.—(Laughter.)
There was no suspicion, no intention, that the Cabinet was
not to go on, so far as I had reason to believe ; and what-
ever degree of surprise the Right-Hon. Gentleman may have
felt—and' it was very natural that he should have felt cur -
.prised at the fact—l can assure him that. I bai never heard
a single word on the subject until the 9th of January.—
(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman may ask, with great
reason, how it had inlayed coming to our knowledge—and
a very reasonable question that would be, for certainly it
was a most extraordinary circumstance—that the Govern-
ment shOuld have been for some hours defunct before the me-
lancholy truth had come to our knowledge.--.-(A
Now, with respect to that fact, as regards ray Noble
Triend, it is hardly necessary to say that it was not -to him
a matter of regret,' for there was much more difficulty is
persuading him to accept office than in inducing him
to. give it up. Ile undertook it against his grain, and re-
signed it, I am quite sure,' with perfect willingness.—
But how it happened that nobody ever 'Mentioned
to us what was likely to' occur, er what had
actually occurred, cannot tell, Although' I aux quite
satisfied in my conscience' that the Right Hon. Gentleman
-never said to me, " How do you go on'about.the coinnzit-
4ee of Finance?" yet I do not deny that the subject was
' referred to by us. The last Cabinet that was held was on
-the 29th of Lreeember—l mean the last before 'the death of
the Government—(A laugh)—when I asked him, " Pray,.
'Mr. Iterries, what are we to do about the Committee oE
`Finance?" " Oh," said he, " we will talk about
that." I said, " In Mr. Abbott's. time the ebairman cf
it he Cinnmittee was-chosen by ballot."—(Hear, hear, fro=
"Mr. Herries.)--If there is any doubt about it I can prove it.
--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. NERRlES—Unquestionably, on the' first occasion,
that was not the course pursued—on the last the thing was
done by ballot.
Mr. TIERNEY--So far from having any, :idea that
deed on any 'other ground, it was the intention of the Right
things were come to that pass, that either on that, or in-
Hon. Gent. to resign, I asked him that question solely is-
cause I thought it full time that the matter should be ad- .
justed. I said, " the Chairman of the Committee in Mr.
AbbOtt's time was' chosep by ballot." " Yes," said the
Right - Hon. 'Gentleman m reply, " after a discussion."
The Right Hon. Gentleman says, laii whole object was, by
his retrenient,ttO reconcile all differences, and the Right
Hoe. Gentleman `refers to his letter of the 21st in proof of
that intention, but of that letter I had no knowledge ; and
if hisobjectliad been what he represents it, why did_ he
not apply to me, I being the only man in the world law,-
ble of reconciling the difference ? But no—he did 40 such
thing; and from' that 'day, the §id, until the restgnstiots
itself, I had no notion of such an intention On his part.
In an interview On the 3d or 4th of January, I admit it
vies hinted' that there had been such a thing—that an
earthquake, or some such thing, had occurred, that would
render it impossible for him to interfere. I believe the
Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite as cautious on the
point as he would have been, if the Government had been
in full vigour. It is by no means my intention to charge
the Right Hem 4entleman with wishing to place min a
situation where a dissolution of the Government must, of
necessity, follow. I merely wish to justify myself. He wrote
that letter, however, and then, when my Noble Friend (Lord
Goderich)' came to town (orf-Dec. 29), for the first tine I
learnt its if.iport. 1 expressed my surprise at the com-
munication; and then Lord Goderich said, " I was lot '
en ed
to
the r"
ores- .
at liberty to mention this to you." Here also I was in the
dark. A correspondence had been going on, in which-
two
turning filyme m btrhee seirgcnsooavftei the
orn
a m had any
for that arose out of a premedi-s
tated schema plot settled previously,, and this was only
Governmentany thing and yet the Right Hon. Gentleman says, " do not imagine-,
that
tothrdeoat
withan excuse for upsetting the Ministry." If that is true,
it furnish if ever any occurrence did furnish—ground
of impeachment against zn somebody—(cheers)—and if such
a measure be not resorted
to—if such a plot has come tsa
his knowledge—it is his duty to denounce the
(Cheers.)—ThOfel". be no safety for any public man--
no man can serve his Xing, if such a plot be not fellows,
Continuing cheerio )-1 •
g. t is true that
by imPeachtneu..Geritlem (11-1
an r. Huskisson), in a speaels
the Right
Deep delivered by him at Li
said to MOT yerpooli
.repro
_
aerated to lave paid to myself and my:Noble Friends the
highest compliments for our conductiwitile the Right
Hon.
• Gentleman (Mr. Ilerries) says 144-Vilows our retire-
ment was the result of a plan laid to blow-, op the Goyern7l.
men,. U the Right H-on. 'Gent/eniati can substantiatak
that, I will admit that it is a triumphant statement-41w;
proves that charge, he will come off with flying cologte.--ossi.
(Hear, hear.)—A plain man in the, country asks, whylord,-,.
roderich's Government had bOn overturned, " for," taps..
he, " although I hear it was in consequence of the *elec.
tion of Lord Althorp to be Chairman of the Finance Cow,
mittee, I wish to know was that all ?" I. do .not iceuse,
the Right Hon. Gentleman of Wishing to overturn •theaj..,:j
Government, but I know that there were other messureia”,.;
in preparation which I knew were gall and wormwood to
the Right Hon. -Gentleman, and which put him out or
humour with that'Government. He says, it was not easy'
in good Government. to be
hand, I cannot think, without incurring the charge of af-
fectation, that be is exactly the man to complain on that ,
score, After my admission to the Ministry (as we und

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