The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-18 00:00:00

EDUCATION.

EWART gave notice that he should,
to-morrow bring under the consideration of the House
the expediency of voting a sum of money to be ap-
plied to the purposes of education. He also gave
notice that he should, on a future day, introduce, as
on former occasions, a motion for the total abolition
of the punishment of death.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord ASHLEY wished to state the course that

he proposed to take with respect to the Factories Bill.
He had intended to move an instruction to the Com-
mittee, but that the Speaker had given him to under-
stand that it was not consistent with Parliamentary
law to do so. The Speaker had likewise informed
him that he would not be able to move the insertion
of any clause till after the whole of the clauses of the
Bill had been disposed of in Committee. That be-
ing the case, he thought it better to take
another course ; and as it was probable that
in Committee there would be no opposition to
the Bill as it now stood, and the Committee
stood for the 26th, he had determined to
move on the third reading that certain clauses
be added to the Bill for the purpose of carrying out
the amendment he contemplated. Her Majesty's
Government had concurred in that arrangement, and
had given him to understand that they would arrange
the business of the House so as if the Bill went

.hrough Committee on Friday, the 26th, that the

third reading would be had ori.that day week—that
was, to-morrow fortnight. He would now, there-
fore, give notice, that on that day, on• the third
reading of the Bill, he would move the addition of
of clauses limiting the number of hours of work per
day in factories to eleven hours, until the Ist of Oct.
1847, and after that period he should propose a fur-
ther limitation.
On the question that the Order of the Day be now
read,
Mr. P. M. STEWART begged to put a question
to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Ma-
jesty's Government. He wished to know if it was the
Right llon. Baronet's intention to submit the con-
templated measure with regard to the law of banking,
before or after the day fixed for bringing forward the
Budget. If material changes were contemplated
it would be a matter of consequence that the bankers
should have early intimation of them, but if it was
not contemplated to make any great changes of course
it would not much matter.
Sir R. PEEL begged that the Hon. Gentleman
would not draw any inferences from the fixing of the
period for introducing that measure, and if the Hon.
Gentleman meant to make any speculation, he advised
him not to found them upon anyprobability of great or
unimportant changes. His Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of Exchequer had fixed Monday, the 29th,
for bringing forward the Budget, and on the Monday
following he (Sir R. Peel) proposed to bring forward
the question of the Charter of the Bank of England,r
in case he should fail of securing precedence for that
question on the Tuesday.
Mr. HUME said it would be much better to fix the
day at once.
Mr. BORTHWICK said it was now more than
probable that on Friday, the 26th, theHk House would
go into Committee, and he wished to ask the e Right
Hon. Baronet whether it would be therefore necessary
to postpone the Poor Law Amendment Bill, that stood
fixed for that day, according to the arrangement made
before Easter.

7

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he was unwilling to
disturb the arrangements which fixed before Easter the
order of the business throughout the cur-
rent month. Certainly according to that
that arrangement the Poor-law Amendment
Bill stood for committee fos Friday, the 26th.
The House had heard what his Noble Friend
the Member for Dorsetshire had proposed.
He (Sir James Graham) was anxious to
meet the Noble Lord's convenience, and the
convenience of the House, on the condition that it
could only be done by disturbing the arrangement
made before Easter, if the House would consent to
the course suggested by his Noble Friend. The
course to be taken, then, would be, that the
Factory Bill would be read a second time
on Monday next. It should be the the first thing on
that day. The Committee on the Bill should be
fixed for Friday, the 26th, in preference
to the Poor-law Bill, which, in that case,
if the House consented, he should postpone
till after the Factory Bill was disposed of. The third
reading could then be fixed for Friday, the 3d of May.
If that course were assented to he (Sir J. Graham)
would be able to answer the question of the Hon.
Member for Evesham, that the Bill would not come
on till after the next Order of the Day.
Lord J. RUSSELL saw no objection to the ar-
rangement proposed, it being always understood that
on the second reading they would not be precluded
from taking any discussion which any Hon. Member
might think proper to originate. He did not wish
to delay the Bill, but of course it must be
understood that no arrangement could be made of
any kind having the effect alluded to. With respect
to the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, he supposed that if
the Factories Bill took up any great length of
time, the Right Honourable Gentleman would
move the second reading of the Ecclesiastical
Courts Bill on the Monday following. With re-
gard to any arrangement for bringing on the ques-
tion of banking on Tuesday, he hoped the Right
Hon. Gentleman would not be disposed to counte-
nance any such arrangement as a great many notices
of motion stood for that day.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that the Noble Lord
would see the position in which he (Sir R. Peel) was
placed in consequence of his acquiescing in the pro-
posals for postponement of certain business what had
been fixed before Easter. He had intended
at that period that the Irish Registration Bill should
have been brought forward on Friday next, but in
consequence of the request of the Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Wyse) he had agreed to postpone
the Bill solely on the ground which the
Honourable Gentleman had made as the basis
of his request. An erroneous inference had been
drawn from his acquiescence in the Hon. Gentleman's
proposal, that the Government wished to shrink from
pressing the Bill. He wished to remove any such
impression, and he would fix an early day for the
second reading of that Bill.

Sir J. GRAHAM proposed on Monday to move,
as the first Order of the Day, the second reading of
the Factories Bill, and then the Ecclesiastical Courts'
Bill ; and on Friday, the 26th, he shoold move the
Committee on the Poor-law Bill.

Mr. WYSE, in allusion to what had fallen from
the Right Hon. Baronet on the subject of the second
reading of the Irish Registration Bill, begged to re-
mind the Right Hon. Gentleman that he had stated,
when he asked for the postponement of the measure,
that the Irish Members could not be ready to take a
part in the discussion under a fortnight; and he
trusted, therefore, that the second reading of the mea-
sure would not be hurried.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he could not fix
an earlier day for the second reading of the Bill than
that which the Hon. Gentleman had named.

Mr. BOTHWICK was glad to hear the discussion
on the Poor-law Bill was fixed for an early day.
DROPPED ORDERS OF YESTERDAY.
Several of the dropped orders of yesterday were
disposed of.
QUARTER SESSIONS BILL.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM hoped thai his Ho-
nourable Friend the Member for Droitwich would
consent to have the Order of the Day for proceed-
ing with this Bill discharged. He had received
from the Recorders of several large cities in which
Quarter Sessions were held representations to the
effect that any legislation on the subject would be
inexpedient.

(LEFT SPEAKING.)

THE WILLS FORGERIES.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.

OLD COURT.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Eliza Rosser was then called and sworn. She said—l live
at Bristol, and am in the service of Mr. Taplin. I formerly
lived with the prisoner Saunders. He was a fishmonger.
Before I left Mr. Saunders' service, Mrs. Saunders had been
in London about two months. She gave me warning to leave
in about a week after she returned. When Mr. Saunders
returned home, she brought with her three silk dresses.
While Mrs. Saunders was in London, Mr. Saunders left
Bristol for a few days. Ile returned about a week before
Mrs. Saunders. Mrs. Dorey on one occasion paid a visit to
Mrs. Saunders for about six weeks.

Cross-examined—hr. Saunders was one of the largest
fishmongers in Bristol. lle was often absent from home.
Mr. Edward Gill—l am a clerk in the bank of Messrs.
Stuckey and Co., of Bristol. I know William Saunders.
He had an account at our bank, which account was opened in
September, 1842. He has an account with us now. On the
sth of September, 1843, he paid into the bank one thousand
sovereigns. When this money was brought in, I remarked
to him, " You must have a mint in your house." The pri-
soner made no reply to that. The sovereigns were new ones.
Cross-examined—The endorsement on the note produced
I believe to be in the handwriting of the prisoner Saunders.
I do not know the prisoner Fletcher's handwriting.
Cross-examined by Mr. WiLxxxs—The letter produced I
believe to be in the handwriting of Saunders.
Daniel Forrester, examined by Mr. ERLE, said—l went
with Miss Neville to Dorey's shop in Oxford-street. I
afterwards went to Bristol to look for Mrs. Saunders. I
took the dresses produced from the daughter of the pri-
soner Saunders. I took the papers belonging to Mr. Bar-
ber. The paper produced I found on the table in Mr. Bar-
ber's office. It is the certificate of Miss Slack's death. It
was handed to me by Mr. Bircham.
Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—Barber had been about
an honr in custody when I took the papers from his office.
The papers relating to Slack's transaction were tied up toge-
ther, and bore an endorsement to the effect that they related
to Slack's affairs. I had been set to watch Mr. Barber's
movements for some time before he was taken into custody.
I began to watch him id the middle of November. I did not
always watch myself. I directed occasionally some one else
to do so. Amongst Mr. Barber's papers I took his diary for
the year 1843. I handed that diary, by the wish of. Mr.
Barber, to Mr. Freshfield. I handed Mr. Barber's papers to
Mr. Weare yesterday. Applications have been made for
copies of those papers. I took everything from Mr. Barber's
person ; his pocket-book, keys, and everything that he had ;
but they were returned to him several days afterwards. The
keys enabled me to open drawers in Mr. Barber's office. I
ransacked every place in that office, and I ransacked the
cash-box. I did not go to his residence in Nelson-square.
Re-examined—When I searched the drawers, Mr. Bircham,
Barber's partner, was present during the whole time. There
was also a gentleman of the name of Price present. The
papers I handed to Mr. Freshfield were those which either
Mr. Giddy, Barber's attorney, or Mr. Barber himself requested
me to give to Mr. Freshfield.
John Forrester sworn, said I took Mr. Saunders into cus-
tody in Edinburgh, on the 13th of March. I took his wife
into custody on the 20th of March in the same town. The
male prisoner waas taken in the street, the female at her
lodgings.
Henry Hyatt was then called, but
Mr. GREAVES objected to his being examined, supposing
that he was called to speak to facts which he had already
stated on the other trial.

Mr. Justice WILLIA:ms said the proper time to take any
objection was when objectionable evidence was tendered.
The witness was then examined, and said I lived at Mar-
low in 1840, and in that year I saw Mr. Fletcher. It was in
May, I think.
ERLE—Did he say who he was ?
➢lr. GREAVES objected to the question. What name Mr.
Fletcher went by in 1840 had nothing whatever to do with
the case.

Mr. WILKINs said that if the object of the examination
was to show that Messrs. Barber and Fletcher were acquainted
in 1840, then they had attained their object, for he (Mr.
Wilkins) would be ready to show that the parties were ac-
quainted in 1839.
Mr. Justice Williams thought the evidence was admissible.
The witness then said in 1840 Fletcher came to me, and
said his name was George Jones.
was evidently an attempt made to prejudice the minds Mr. GREAVES again objected to this examination. rois
i f
the jury.
Mr.
the end think this had betterbo reserved
till
Mr. James Gudge examined, said I am clerk of journals of
...
the House of Commons. The dßight Hon. Charles Shaw Le-
fevre is Speaker of the House of Commons.
Mr. Freshfield N%,as then called and examined—l am the
the solicitor to the Bank. On the 15th of November last
I called on the prisoner Barber. I told him that I came
from the Bank of England with reference to a sum of stock
which had been transferred in the name of Anne Slack, under
a will which appeared to have been proved by Mr. Barber,
and which was irregular. He said that he remembered the
transaction ; that Miss Slack came to him with the will,
which was quite regular; that the property was mentioned
in the will ; and that she stated that her aunt had died about
six weeks before; that he got the will proved, and got her
the money, which was all he knew of the business. I asked
him who the lady was, and he said she resided in some street
out of Holborn; she was a most respectable person, and he
had no doubt that the transaction was all right. I asked
him if she was introduced, and by whom. He said he had
no doubt that she was, but he could not, recollect by whom ;
but he would endeavour to recal the facts; as to him it was a
mere matter of business, and he knew nothing more of it.
I told him that was quite inconsistent with the fact of his.
having been in communication with Captain Foskett for
some months before the alleged death of Miss Anne Slack,
respecting this very property. He said he certainly had had
some communication with Captain Foskett, but not, he
thought, respecting this property, but he could not recol-
lect. I told him that his letters were distinctly respecting
the property of Miss Anne Slack. After some hesitation,
he said it might be so, he could not deny it, but that it was
a mere matter of business, and he did not feel authorised in
disclosing the affairs of his client. I told him that I did
not wish him to tell me more than' he chose—that I should
not at all press him ; but it was necessary that I should
apprise him that a fraud and forgery had been committed,
and that lie was gravely implicated in the transaction,
having been inquiring and negotiating respecting this very
property six months before the alleged death of Miss Anne
Slack, and before the right of his clients accrued; and
I desired to know under what circumstances he had
so negotiated. He said he supposed he could tell,
and he would endeavour to recollect. -He said Miss
Slack was a most respectable woman, and that he
bad no doubt that it was All right. I told lalin that way be-

side the question, which was, how he came to be interfering
six months before he saw her? He said that he did not know
that he could tell, or ought to tell, but he would refresh his
memory; and he wished me to look at his books, that I
might see that it was a mere matter of business with him.
Ile then produced a probate, and his ledger and account-
book, which he opened. There was an entry in his ledger of
90/. proctor's bill, and 15/. for his own. He said that was all
he got out of the transaction ; that his bill amounted as cast
to 13/. odd, and Miss Slack made it 15/. The book showed
the produce of the stock to be 4,500/., and the entry was
signed " Emma Slack." I then told him that that was not
the question, and he again said that he would endeavour to
refresh his memory, and if I would call on a future occasion
he would let me know the result. I told him that his cha-
racter was implicated, and that I desired to give him an
opportunity to explain if he pleased, but I did not mean then
to press him, but that I should report the case to the Trea-
sury, who would no doubt prosecute it; and that if he chose
to send me any explanation, I would report that also, but
that I could not delay. From that time to the time of his
being apprehended, he never made any communication to me.
The witness read this statement from notes which he made
at the time.

Mr. WILKINS—Now, Mr. Freshfield, put the paper by,
and then give the statement to the jury without looking at
the notes.

Mr. Justice IVII.LIAms—That is a matter entirely with
himself. lie may do it if he chooses.
Mr. ERLE—If Mr. Freshfield wishes to look at the paper
again, I submit that he has a right to do so if he pleases.
Mr. Freshfield—l could give the account without the paper,
but of course there would be variances in words.

Mr. WILKINS —Of course, and those variances are what I
want to hear.

Mr. Freshfield—Well, then, I decline to do it.
Mr. WILKINS—Very well ; that will do as well for me.
Cross-examination continued—Mr. Barber expressed a
geod deal of angry feeling. He said, "I hardly understand
in what character you put these questions to me I wil-
fully omitted this when I read my statement. Mr. Barber
did not express indignation more than once. I will swear
that he did not say he must decline furnishing me with the
name of his informant for the present. lie did not say " I
think at the present time I ought not to mention his name."
I have never been examined before. Mr. Barber did not
offer to show me his diary. I did not instruct the Messrs.
Forrester to watch Mr. Barber's office, nor am I aware that
such instructions were given. It was about three weeks
after I called on Mr. Barber that he was taken into custody.
I never called on Mr. Barber afterwards, although he had
said that if I called in a few days he would give me an ex-
planation.
Re-examined—l told him that I should not call again,
but if he wished to send any explanation I would report it.
I have no part in getting up this case beyond reporting it to the
Treasury. This prosecution is instituted by the Lords of the
Treasury.
Samuel Robert Goodman examined—l am the chief clerk
at the Mansion-house. I was there when the prisoner Bar-
ber was first brought up, and when the forged will of Emma
Slack was produced. After examination Mr. Barber applied
to be discharged on bail. Mr. Clarkson said that further
evidence would be brought forward, and therefore he apposed
the application of Barber, and the Lord Mayor declined -ad-
mitting the prisoner to bail. Mr. Clarkson inquired if
Fletcher was present, and no one answered. Soon after this
Mr. Barber was seen talking to a person, who turned out to
be Fletcher.
Cross-examined—Mr. Barber cross-examined Fletcher and
Miss Slack also. I have a copy of that cross-examination.
Re-examined—When Barber ealled Fletcher as a witness,
it was after the Lord Mayor had refused to bail him. The
proceedings were kept waiting, I should think, a quarter of
an hour, while Barber was in conversation with Fletcher,
before Fletcher was examined as a witness.

The forged will was here put in and read, as also was the
affidavit for obtaining probate. The letters which passed be-
tween Barber, and Fletcher, and Captain Foskett, were
then read.

Mr. Edward Wolfe was then called and examined, and
said—l am the articled clerk to Dlr. Flower, who is the at-
torney for Mrs. Dorey. The statement produced was made
voluntarily by Mrs. Dorey.
Mr. Wiminis said he could not object to this being pro-
duced, but he had to complain of his Learned Friend not
mentioning it in his opening.
Mr. ERLE said he would not press the statement, and it
was consequently not read.
Mr. Wolfe wished to state that, when he was examined
before, he was understood to say that he was the attorney
for Mrs. Dorey. This was not the case, he was articled clerk
to Mr. Flower, who was the attorney for Mrs. Dorey.
This was the case for the prosecution.
The Court then adjourned.