The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-21 00:00:00

;;JELL.•

On Sunday ',chin;; last, in Devonshi-re-street, the flon•
C:athetine Frenia:itle, widow of the late Lieutenant-CW*oml
Freinat6tle, and of the Lite Lord()ll4ley. ,
Ott Friday last, Colonel Douglas, one of the Gentlemen
wino lately formed the Committee of Nlanagenient of Drury'
lane Theatre, at his -I eSidene in Stafford-place.

LONDON ; by J. B. CARSTA IRS,,of No. 2V, Great'
Ormotid-street, (queen.:sivare ; and
,publighed by W. A.
/ SCRIPPS, of 7, South Mbiton-street, it Tax St:
Or Ft cr, No. 112, Strand; where ADVERTEMXii:STI,
ORLIERS, LEVI. i:Rsz 4-C.,(post-paid) MUNI: be Lidareslect,

)1E N: ) Tur •IVT-
S -
VAV
4,1'. • D-4 fr? A • TO im
_DL--iimvEß, ED GR
MIN TES OF EVIDENCE
Ta ken bffore the Select Committee appointed to- consider of the
deans of maintaining and improwng the FOitEiGN TRADE of
country; and to report their Opinion and Observations-
thereon
to the House.

Lance, 19 die Fcbruarii, 1821.
THOMAS WILSON, Esquire, in the chair.
Examination of MOMS Toeke, Esq. continued.
of liter you should suppose more difference Would be produced by levying a duty
ss• on the one, and reducing the duty ss. on the other ?—The timber trade gee
nerdy, I conceive, would be benefited by a reduction ; but in no ease can it be
,enefited by a mere additional duty upon the American timber, without any re-
duction upon the Baltic timber.
Should you conceive, that so small a reduction as ss. on the Beide timber would
give that advantage to the importer- of the timber, or that it would be likely to raise
e price in the ports from which it would be shipped ? I think a reduction of
ssl. would be too trifling to produce any perceptible effect on an article of such
vCry large consumption and importation generally.
Are you suffieiently acquainted with the relative value of the timber of the growth
of the two countries, to state what duty on American timber, or what reduction of
the duty on the Baltic timber, you should think likely to Produce a beneficial effect
on the timber trade, without driving the American timber out of the market ?
am not sufficiently acquainted With the difference of quality between the two, to
be able to pronounce any distinct opinion on that point.
What, in your opinion, ought to be the alteration of duty, either by a reduction
of duty on Baltic timber, or by imposition of duty on British colonial timber, or
by combination of both, so as to place the timber trade on the fairest footing, in
order that each article should be applied to the purposes for which it is best
adapted ?—I should conceive that a reduction of the duty upon Baltic timber, or
aAreduction of the duty on the Baltic combined with ari imposition of duty upon
boutcan timber, so as to reduce- the present protection in favour of the latter by
30s a load, would be a material benefit to the Baltic trade without, as I
conceive, removing the competition of the timber from our own colonies.
Can you inform the Committee what are the data on which you rest that opi-
nion ?_Although not practically acquainted with the precise difference of the
vrality of the timber, so as to speak of it technically, or with any degree of posi-
eness, I have the impression that it is of an inferior quality, which, upon the
Principle of an ad valorem duty, would justify a smaller duty on the American
Diasn Baltic timber, supposing the voyages equal in distance.
the timber from Russia imported into this country, chiefly imported in deals
attiquare timber, and in what proportion ?—I cannot speak from present recol-
'3n ; I believe the proportion of deals is larger than that of timber.
lls not the duty on ,Russian deals considerably less in proportion than the duty
taqUare timber ?—I am not competent to speak with accuracy on that point.
nlyerfectly aware that it is less, but to what degree I cannot say.
to as it about one-third ?—Yes ; I cannot say positively, not having had occasion
make
the calculation.
Its not the timber trade at present carried on with very little profit ?—Noi only
carried on without profit, but it is, I believe, carried on with a loss.
/ els not that trade carried on principally, if not entirely, with British ships ?
7lieve the Russian timber trade is wholly carried on by British ships.
arnuaas not the system of this government, of discouraging the importation of Baltic
la 'er, produced very great commercial prejudices against us in all the countries
ei,sa. Baltic ?—I believe it has been productive of very injurious effects in the
tb-ertion of the Russian government, and probably, next to our exclusion of
1.1 linens and corn, more than any other.
zas it not been an inducement to the inhabitants of those countries to press upon
, governments a countervailing system of exclusion of articles of the growth
eon
nt Manufacture
ry of this country ? —lt has ; and I believe, that the system in this
of prohibitory duties and exclusion, has been the ground upon which the
oar refiners at Petersburg have very recently represented the impolicy of allowing
Braclaished sugars to be admitted upon the same footing as the Havannah and
au• sugars ; and memorials have been presented to the Russian government
spa_tniportant classes of its own subjects, proving the superior advantages of their
balasatlantic commerce, from the circumstance of .so many of their productions
Ong admitted either without duty, or comparatively at very moderate duties, into
Ports of America and Havannah, which are wholly.prohibited here, or only
greed!l upon the payment of high duties.
iy not of opinion, that a country having such extensive and valuable ma-
peZetures as this, for which to find a market, should give as little countenance as
jaible to-a restrictive system, where there is not some very great object to be
ned by it ?—1 am of opinion that every restriction that is not warranted by the
latainount necessities of the revenue, is disadvantageous, and may be proved
Caically to be so, in every instance in which it has operated.
ti an you state to the Committee, any reason why the duties on the Norway
th:er s.hould not be regulated, so as to give that timber a fair competition with
think comes from the Baltic ?—I am not aware of any sufficient reason ; I
Is it „e Norway trade is entitled to be admitted fairly into the competition.
while thetime, that the Norway timber is principally imported in foreign shins,
Norse, t,nnber from Russia comes principally in British ships ? I believe that the
accoualtr ti from
is chiefly imported in foreign ships ; but, if it should be, on that
Barrie e . eaeluded, or charged with a prohibitory duty, it seems to me that the
bottorulciple would apply to excluding Swedish tar, which comes mostly in foreign
\\;;;4i,While the Russian tar comes wholly, or nearly so, in British ships.
icaelaa. °a.' it be easy, by laying a heavier duty upon the timber imported in the
esideraerPs, to secure, that the importation from Norway shall take place to a. con-
but be„catent, at least in British shipping ?-4-That would certainly be one mode;
1.11 the le've) that the British shipping need not fear a competition of foreigners
4,40 rig rue, and they require no protection beyond a fair countervailing duty.
vita; you able to state to the Committee, what amount of discriminating duty
taa`a have the effect of transferring that trade to British shipping, or give a fair
ta,tPeation between the two ?—I am not competent to give a distinct opinion upon
Point.
ta,
altie c the fact to be as stated, that the greater part of the tiniber from the
walla °lnes in foreign ships, and the greatest part from Russia in English ships,
rote,„ You not think it adviseable to encourage the latter trade, in favour of the
eeee,,,r? by a discriminating duty ?—I am rather disposed to question the policy of
Or 04 fur'
upon the grounds stated; because, although in the first instance,
dial, a superficial view, there might appear to be a disadvantage by the whole
Peat ieltlce of freight, yet it should seem that as the freight to the foreigners must be
tioes X an exportation, direct or indirect, of sonic of our manufactures or produc-
be a;rit advantage to the classes connected with that increased exportation would
deealueast equal to the disadvantages experienced by that class which would feel the
eateesitlon of employment of the shipping. And lam not 'sure that the general
1/atieeP of our trade, arising from greater facilities, and the removal of the ireita-
Ikea hostility which exist, and of which we set so much the example, would give
tee es att extension to our general trade, as would eventually afford employment to
r.O at British .
w%an shipping, by the general extension of trade, as would compensate
proportion of increase of foreign shipping in the case alluded to.
!ba,st, Paesent price of American timber being 31. ss. if 15s. duty were added to
alting the then price 41. and the present price of Baltic timber being 61. ss.
opelYias taken from that, leaving the price 51. 10s. in what proportion are ycu
eese4el.llsZ!, if such alteration in the duties should take place, the consumption of
L'' rte of timber for the purposes for which it is most applicable would be
asaueeli -•-• I cannot speak to the effects upon the consumption, not being sufficiently
`aaltseet sled. with the details of the timber trade ; but I should suppose that
.the
ils,PaseLatica of American timber is depressed below its fair proportion of quality,
taken with that from the Baltic, iii consequence of the great importation that
Che elter I,dace from America, being chiefly brought forward by a speculation on
er e'atit'a that is expected in the arrangement of the duties ; and the Baltic
when eilallee in rather smaller quantity from the very same speculation ; there-
-0 bou "'e duties are fixed upon a scale that shall remove some part of the ex-
ile, and IltY in favour of the American timber, the reduced importation of the
Pees_ the • .
.'1 portion
ofnicreased importation of the other, will bring them to a much nearer
'erie - Price in the market, and I should think, would still admit of the
411 CQU • • f •
ling into air competition.
-r take), °nr opinion of 30s. differ6nce in the present rate of duty, whether laid on
,r'fro
et foatanfr: is not founded upon a calculation on the present prices ?—No, it is
a_ eta Iced on a calculation on the present prices ; for, in my view of the probable
'be-1 the expectation that the quality, and the imperfe.ct squarbT of
laroseel,an America, which has hitherto been very much complained of, will be
Are ln order to admit its bearing the increased charges.
count you aware of the present price of freight of timber from Memel to this
a'eat D
er • --Prom twenty shillings to twenty one shillings the' lead, through the
Ir art of 1 4-
Vc aseyear:
aan. he examination of a price current of timber during the years 1817 and
leu..cl usl„a•aing Which time the shipping of this country was reduced
employmeet
ratbaas, and the importation of Amelican timber was reduced. to a more fair
nger :aio at present, and you discover at that time, that the best suits of American
delis Baltic
regular difference of from ten to fifteen shillings, when compared
fdee tiniber, or with the timber from Memel, would you infer, that Was
If
air 'sarecrlecelvin price arising from the comparative estimate of their different value ?
Presumption that such was the relative quality.
1, [Adjourned to to-morrow, at one o'clock.]

The ComMittee would be glad if you would state the grounds on which you form
that opinion ?—I ground my opinion on the evidence before the Lords Committee,
Confirmed by what has occurred within the range of my own observation. My
house is the largest importer of the more valuable articles of Russia produce, and
for the purpose of conveying it, I am in the habit of chartering ships to the extent
of from 12 to 14,000 tons annually ; in no instance, however, has it happened that
any Russian ship has been offered to me since the year 1814 on terms so cheap as
those of British ships.
.1 likewise annually charter a'British ship, in consequence
of orders from a correspondent at Dunkirk, for the conveyance of a cargo of hemp
from Petersburg thither, as being cheaper on the whole than by a French vessel,
although there is an extra duty of about 'Jc. Gd. per ton on the hemp, and higher
port charges on the ship, in consequence of not being of French origin. In 1817
I chartered a British ship, to convey a cargo of tallow from Petersburg to Rot-
terdam, as being cheaper.than by a Dutch vessel ; and last year, having it in
contemplation to ship some wheat from Petersburg to Holland, I enquired the
terns upon which Dutch ships could be chartered in Holland for the purpose,
and I found that they were as nearly as possible the same as by British ships : but
this equality was merely in consequence of the port charges being lower on a Dutch
ship. If the port charges were the same, the freight of the British ship would be
proportionably lower. The shipment did not take place ; but if it had, it would
have been in British ships, as being the cheaper upon the whole, including the
tower insurance, and the greater expedition, and other grounds of preference, which
are very obvious, in favour of a British ship. I have no hesitation in adding, as
the result of the information I have obtained) that if I had occasion to make any
equipment of article's of Russia produce from Petersburg to Dutch ports, I would
give the preference to British, at the present relative rate of freights. My house
has of late, as indeed in most years, had occasion to ship hemp and flax from
hence to ports in France, Portugal and Spain, and cordage to the Brazils, and
I have, with scarcely an exception, found the conveyance by British cheaper than
'by any foreigners, althoughthe British are in some cases liable to heavier expenses
in the ports of discharge, than vessels belonging to the foreign state. lam now
shipping some hemp to New York, and could readily get a British ship to take it
at a freight of 21.105. a ton, but the American navigation laws, which are a coun-
terpart of ours, prevent it, and I have been obliged to give 31. 10s. a ton to
a second-class American ship for it. Other houses, I understand, have paid as
high as 41. If, then, the shipping of this country is thus able to.maintain the
competition to foreign ports, without protection inUny instances, and with heavier
expenses of port charges in most cases in the place of discharge, subject moreover
to heavy direct taxes on the materials of ship-building, particularly on timber,
there seems to be little reason to apprehend any great increase of employment of
foreign shipping in importations to this country, where they are subject to_heavier
port charges, and the cargoes to extra dutice. And it is still less to be appre-
hended, if, by a reduction in the duty on Amber, this most important of all the
materials of ship-building become cheaper.
Do not those observations principally apply to ships which are taken to carry
cargoes of considerable value ? The articles to which 1 have alluded, namely, hemp
and flax, may be considered to be valuable as compared with timber ; but of very
inferior value compared with cargoes of manufactured goods and colonial produce.
Are not an inferior description of ships capable of conveying the timber ?—Yes.
Are not those ships likely to be found in Denmark, Norway and Sweden ?
Not, I should apprehend, in any considerable numbers, to meet any extra demand
for timber in consequence of additional encouragement to the importation from
the European ports. _

Then your observation does not apply to those ships as ship„ but in consequence
of there not being a sufficient number to meet the demand ?—I rely upon the
evidence before the Lords Committee to justify the opinion, that no new ships, to
any extent, are likely to be constructed, at any thing like the present freights, to
Imeet an increased demand for the importation of timber.
If there was an increased demand for the importation of timber from the ports
in the North, would not the price of freights rise ?—By the supposition of a pro-
portion of British shipping being thrown out of employment by the diminution of
the importation from America, it is to be presumed that freights would not advance
in any material degree; and I beg leave to observe, in reference to the question
of the employment of foreign and British ships in the wood trade from the Baltic,
that in 1319, the number of ships declared inwards to Memel were 268 British,
153 Prussian, 270 Dutch, Swedish, French, &c. together 691 ships cleared inward.
Of these the whole of the British vessels departed with cargoes, but of the Prussians,
being as above 153 in number, about4o laid up for the winter, 80 went to Holland,
remained 33; to these add the number which wintered in 1818-19, making 30
ships, leave 63 ships under the Prussian flag which went to Great Britain, or
about one to four to the number of British.

Do you think, that while the British shipping is in the situation in which it is
at present, that there could be any inducement to foreign states to build ships for,the
purpose of carrying on any trade that may be created ?—I should think not.
Do you happen to know whether, within the last few years, in point of fact, ships
have been built in those countries to any extent? —I cannot speak positively to the
fact ; but I infer from the information of parties concerned in those trades, that
there has been a diminution in the quantity of shipping in those parts.
By the diminution in the quantity of shipping, have those ships, which have
been worn out, been replaced by ships newly built ?—Not fully replaced, as I
understand.

You have suggested, as a compensation to British shipping, when in competition
with the shipping in Norway, and other nations in the north of Europe, that a
tonnage duty should be laid on the ships of those countries equal to the direct
taxes in this country on the materials for shipbuilding; thus taking a part of the
first cost of the British ship, as the rule to be applied to the rate to be levied for
each voyage on the foreign ship ; as for instance, supposing that the difference of
cost, . from those causes, of a British ship, amounted to 51. a ton, how would you
propose to distribute this sum on the various voyages of the foreign ship which she
might or might not be engaged to make in competition with the British ships
This is a calculation which shipbuilders and shipowners, and brokers may, I should
imagine, be able to make ; -but which lam not prepared with at present: I
willing to admit that there maybe complexity; .and perhaps uncertainty in such a
calculation, but it may afford some approximation to an equitable rate. At the
same time there can be (to doubt,- but that .a repeal of the duties altogether, upon
the timber employedin the construction of ships, would be very much preferable ;
and in such case I should expect, that British shipping would be enabled to obtain
very far the greater part of the carrying trade of the commercial world.
,Supposing that the principle laid down by you-was found practicable and adopted,
ought it not to be extended .to the additional cost of the stores necessary for .the
outfit of the British ship on each voyage respectively, whether of British or foreign
production, as well as the difference in the amount of the seamen's wages ?—.lt is
only in as far as the increased cost of outfit can be ascribed to direct taxation that
it should- be included in the calculation.

The Committee understand you to have stated, that British ships in the trade
with Russia obtain a preference over those of Russia in the ports of that country,
can you inform the Committee, whether or net British ships so employed, are pro-
ductive of profit to their owners ?--I am concerned as'a part-owner in only one
ship, which ship has been navigated at the current freights; and I can only say,
that by the economy and activity of the managing owner, it so happens that she
has made money each season, at the very lowest frieghts at which vessels have been
chartered from this port. We have had a dividend each year, more or less.
When you say, each year you have received a dividend, more or less, can you state
to the Committee the average extent of that dividend ?—I cannot from memory.
In receiving those dividends, have you taken into consideration the natural de-
preciation in the value of the ship ?—I cannot speak without a reference to the
accounts.

Mortis, 20 die Februarii, 1821.
Tile Right Honourable TilomAs WALLACE in the chair.
The Thomas Tookc, Esq. again called in, ancl.further examined.
~
~,
btif)ll,..k..otrunittee understanding that you are desirous of giving a further cApt,..-
*ow -r1 reference to one of the questions put to you yesterday, the Conitni.tee
the "`_
,K)e glad to repeat the question t 3 you, which is, " Are you able to state to
tetri,oiamittee what amount of discriminating duty would have the effect of trans-
,„litght,he trade to British shipping, or- give a fair competition between the two ?"
that (1,-,lgu I must repeat, that I am not competent to state what the quan
m„t I.Zrtliitninating duty should be, it occurs to me that there is a rule of theut-
authorities"; aPPlicable to such a case, namely, to determine, from the competent
direct t,_s_ the extra. expense attaching to ship-building in this country, from
the the
of
l'essel.
~i'S on the materials, and to compute the amount on the tonnagei
, strictly a 4 extra Charge to this extent on the tonnage of the foreign.vesse wouldvessels hieh ott countervailing duty., and would have nothing of the invidious character
eildlesa i r restricti:nedancdotprohibitory.system,poseststeos,suanc_di has given rise to
I have rinlitatios
f0,e4,01:, doubtsh Brititsheshil wahciocuhnteryailing duty,
restraints. Subjec
to a1,,,t, s Lind I:ut ve •
1 h 'e no reas
• on
r 3, shipping maintain a successful competition with
`
h
1
" "ell(' the thr
11
~
Iv to think that we should at
ith this si 7 °wing °Or ports generally open to all importation in foreign I
ng,e r .
ecaution.
, 1

Has not this particular ship, from the extensive and important connections of
your establishment, obtained advantages in the outward as well as homeward
freight, which do not fall to the lOt of shipping in general, engaged in that trade?—
Possibly she may, but not to any material extent, as the freight has always been
at the lowest of the then competition.
Has she not, in such cases 'of competition, obtained'a preference ?—A prefer-
ence at the lowest freights.
And whilst she thus obtained outwaid freight, were not many other ships going
at the same time in ballast ?-111y house ships very little to Russia, and it has not
been once in a dozen voyages that she has had any goods outwards, of any consez
quence, from my house,.
Speaking generally, are there not more British ships that oiler for freight in the
Baltic' than employment can be found for them?.-L-That is. a question of freight :
I should observe, that in .1818 I had very great difficulty indeed, in getting the
requisite quantity of tonnage; and indeed, it rather fell short of my intended im-
portation, from the inability to get it, without a more considerable advance in
freight than the goods would have borne.
Did this circumstance mem' at any particular season?—Through the whole season
of 1818 ; there might. be short intervals, in which the demand was not so great.
In point of fact, how has it been in 1819 and in 18'70 ?,--Ncither in 1819, nor
in 1820 were the freights of those ships that I chartered lower than they were in
1816, and the early part of 1817.
Bet in point of fact, has there not been a greater number of British ships seek-
ing employ in 1819 and 1820 than could 'find it ?—That is a question of freight ;
and the chartered freights were not lower last year
,than iiv 1816.
When you were desirous to charter one ship, could you not, with equal facility,
have obtained two, had you desired it ?—Yes, but not at lower freights than in
1816, and the beginning of 1817.
Is the fact not within your knowledge, that there has been, during the last two
seasons, a considerable surplus of Britisl; shipping at Cronstadt seeking freight,
beyond what could find immediate employment ?—Yes, there was a stuplus of
seeking-ships as they are termed ; but I have seldom, with the exception of 1818,
known a season of late years, in which that has'not been the case
You have stated to the Committee, that of- the Prussian ships employed from the
port of...Memel, of late years, only a small prop6rtion of them have come to this
country, but that the greater part have traded ,with Holland; do you know, whether
the whole" f the Prussian ships, belonging to or resorting to that poet, were not
employed am not, from immediate experience or connexion in business, ac-
quainted with any further detail, relative to shipping in that port,; cannot,
therefore, answer that question.

You stated to the Committee, that on a late occasion you were obliged to pay
70s. a ton for freight in an American ship from hence to New York, whereas a
British ship might have been engaged at 505.; supposing that the article had been
one of British production, and therefore open to be carried in the shipping of
either nation, would it not have been in that case taken at equally a low freight
in the American as in the British ship ?—I cannot say, having had no occasion to
snake enquiry.
Were there American ships" in competition for the freight of hemp at the time you
applied for the tonnage ? —Of course the terms I have mentioned imply a scarcity of
American shipping, ru proportion to the demand, compared with British shipping.
Are you aware, that seven-eighths of the trade carried on from Liverpool with
the United States of America, is carried on in American ships, and not above