The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-20 00:00:00

combine with rrance in the operations she deems necessary
for the attainment of the objects of that Treaty, to which
Russia may be still considered a party ? kid) 3dly, whe-
they any communications have been received from the Naval
Commander in the Mediterranean, to account for and jus-
tify (as I have no douht he will be able to do) his not en-
forcing the blockade of the fortifiedliorts of the Morn?
Mr. Secretary PEEL.—If, Sir, I abstain from making
any communication to the House, with reference to the
observations of the Um. Gentleman opposite, and with
reference tem the particular questions with which he con-
cluded, I-trust that no inference will be drawn from my
silence, except that I -think it would be more than injudi-
cious to afford any information upon such topics tinder cir-
cumstances that new exist: With respect to the particu-
lar questions theinsoVes, if I do not reply to them, I trust
that the House will not. I trust that no Hon. Member
Will attribute my silence to aught else than an indisposi-
tion on my part to explain, and, if neettsary, to vindicate
the policy pursued by hiss Majesty's Government upon this
important risatter ; but I trust that the House will be
ready to concur with me in considering that great pru-
dence is.necessary—and that I find it My ditty to the so
much reserve as mayaltnost atno:int to absolute silence.—
Under any circurAstslnces, great caution ought to be ob-
served in approaching such a subject before the arrival of
the period when detailed explanations may be safely given.
The Hon. Gentleman himself has shown me how necessary
caution must be, by referring to tohib ÜbSetVations made
by me in auswo I'd Some questions put by him on a
former teetsion, for he has shown me how liable a
person may be to lead another astray by alluding to au
answer without explaining, the cpiestion to which it was a
reply. The Hon. Gent. salted me certain questions relative
to the poSitfen of affairs between Russia and the Porte, and
in reply I stated, that no official information had been re-
ceived, upon which I had a right to presume, that the fele-
tions between Russia and Turkey bad nittlt;egoile any change.
I referred of coarse tn a declaration of war—but,- I ad-
mitted-that the probability of peace had become somewhat
was. Now, Sir, with respect to the particular questions
which the Hon. Gentleman has just put, all the answer I
can give consistent with my duty, and hi consideration of
the peculiar cireinistances that exist, I will now give.
froin time first moment of this signature of the Treaty
of the 6th July, up to the present moment that I address
the House, it has been the part of the advisers of the Crown
to desire the punctual and scrupulous fulfilment of the en-
gagement into Which we entered ; and, independently of
the Consideration of an actual treaty, I say, that it cannot
he the opinion of his Majesty's Government, considering
the great length of the struggle between TUrkey and Greece,
that they ought to take no step to put an end to that ap-
parently interminable contest, if our mediation is declined
by either of the contending parties, and to lay down some
specific relations in which Turkey and Greece shall here-
after stand, with respect to one another. England was
asked by her Allies to consent to a treaty, and to propose
some Means of carrying that treaty into effect—but, it is now
notorious that events have since occurred, which at the time
of the signing of that treaty could not have been foreseen—
events which have materially changed the relation in which
one of the parties to that treaty stood icith respect to Tom key,
at the period when that treaty waseigned. It is now notorious
to the world, that War has beeii declared by Russia against
Turkey..-soti grounds, applying only to the situation in which
Rttsela stands, and not common to the two other parties to
the treaty. That declaration of war has not changed the
position of the three parties with respect to Greece. It is
still the desire of the three parties to terminate the
contess between Turkey and Greece, and to prevent future
dissensions between them. That declaration of war
has not relieved either of the three Powers from the
engagements or the stipulations into which they
entered at the time it was determined to endeavour, by
joint operations, to compose the troubles in the East
of Europe. But that declaration of war, by altering
the situation of one of those parties with respect to Turkey,
into a belligerent, involves a material consideration with
respect to the accomplishment of the means of producing
that repose in the way contemplated by the Treaty. From
a sense of public duty I abstain from now entering into ex-
planation on this point. When the time has arrived in
which I shall be in a condition to explain, I shall be ena-
bled to show that his Majesty's Government has acted
upon two great principles—a desire to maintain the good
faith of the country by the fulfilment of every engagement
entered into by the country, this is the first principle.—
The second is, to narrow, as far as can be consistently nar-
rntved, the precedent for foreign interference in the affairs
of another country, and to limit any force employed to the
precise object for which it is intended. With respect to
the third question put by the Hon. Gentleman, viz., that
which relates to the blockade of the Morea—l have only to
aay that instructions were given as to the intention of his
Majesty's Government to provide for and require a blockade
of the ports of the ?lorea at the time to which the lion.
Gentleman refers. With respect to the point on which he
requires information, I can only observe that explanations
have been required and received, but, as to their precise
hatUre, I must be forgiven for being silent at the present
moment. If, in these few observations, I appear to be
more than cautious, I can only observe that I consider my
public duty requires it of me. Isbell manifest no dis-
position to shrink from explanation when the proper time
arrives.
'Mr. Secretary PEEL gave notice 'of his intention to
move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation
of the law for the recovery of small debts, and also a Bill
to regtilate the means of raising money on Church briefs.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EL
CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee
'of Supply.
Sir G. CLERK rose to move the Nov; Estimates.
On the' vote of 3,2131. for completing the Naval Col-
lege and the School of Naval Architecture,
Mr. HUME rose to oppose the grant. The Honourable
Gentleman preceeded to condemn the expensive system in-
troduced into these institutions. That the classics should
be taught to the students he saw no objection, hut that the
public should be put to the expense of teaching them draw-
ing, riding, fencing, French, and other ;natters, the knowledge
of which they could obtain in private establishments, he
theught no Hon. Member would attempt to say.—[Here
the Hon. Member recapitulated the various officers emn-
ployed in the estalilishment, contending that in the present
circumstances of the country the public ought not to be
put to the expense of educating in that manner a few
boys.]
Sir J. YORKE was as willing as any other Honourable
Member to curtail the expenses of the country; but he was
equally as favourable to the maintenance of the offices and
institutions necessary for time public service. He was
animus for reform, in order that the Chancellor of the Ex-
eheqeer; if put to his trumps, should be able to fork out
the blunt.—(A laugh.) It was desirable that the plan
lately adopted by his Royal Highness the Lord High Ad-
miral, with respect to the children of seamen, should be '
persevered in, namely, the sending up or promotion of two
hundred boys from the lower to the upper school at
Greenwich ; but it was 'not necessary that similar benefits,
should be extended to the on of officers educated at the
College of Portsmouth. Ile should like to know whether,
froni the class of naval architectural students, efficient per-
, irons had been furnished for the public service, either as
masters, assistants, or otherwise?
Sir G. COCKBU RN could assure the House that the case
referred to by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had not
been overlooked by his Royal Highness the Lord High
Admiral ; and it was proposed to admit a limited number
of the sons of naval and military officers, who were to pay
10/. a year each.—Formerly none of the students paid
anything. In the College of Sandhurst, some young men
were admitted on these terms—it wits deemed pm oper to
adopt that system. With respect to the School of Naval
Architecture, he should merely say, that it having been
found that there u-as not employment for the number edo-
-1 cated, it had been determined not to admit any more until
all those who had been there perfected should be provided
for. ,
Mr. W. WHITMORE thought that every gentleman
who sent his sun to chase establishments, ought to pay the
expense._

e n
the employed
great: y
ii
mightPe igi k
befL :efirl:R9uot-u•eapdEl
Mr. MABERLY concurred.
Sir GEORGE CLERKfjm defended. the vote.
Sir J. YonKc and Mr. 11u3tE
After a few word's
the vote was agreed to.
,90t'7h/
e.
wages 12 i . 2
of
.:
The next item was, for a sum
to complete the sum necessary for defraying "
offi3cierrs.,,usihmipi-kEeecpoenirsp,iaaiinided
ofm
of
iwkteleetteini7:nrt
and other yachts. The mind:
the vessels in ordinary, for 1826.
up the Royal
yachts was five • now he thought these
to one. Then there was a yacht for the Lord
"of Ireland—a yacht for the Ambasdors. Why
P, employed in
the King's yachts, if they must be kept u
these services? There were in addition, the Adrulralt%
yacht, a yacht for the Navy Board, another for
.the Co„,::
missioners at Chatham, another for those at Plymouth, an-
other for the Governor of the Isle of Wight. He was at a
loss to know, why at such an enormous
.expense these
on , ves.
sels should be maintained. There was' ni a
yacht—the Calesta, built for the Governor of Malta, at an
expense of 11,0001.
• g of this entin-
Sir GEO. CLERK thought that the Kin
!ry ought not to be confined to a single yacht.—(Heao
hear.)—That was, however, a question for the Vous& of i
'Commons, and not for him to decide...—(Cheert.)...-The

tommana of the Royal yacht was always conferred upon
some or other of the oldest Captains in the navy. These
officers, with the boatswains, gUnners, and carpenters, were
the only persons on boatel those vessels; respectively, who
*ere constantly kept upon their establiehitiefit-;-41se crews
*ere employed, when not required on board the Royal
Yaehts, in the general service—in proof of which be in-
stanced the crew of one of them, at present employed on the
coast of Africa. In like manner the crew of the yacht for
the Lord Lieutenarit'of Ireland were employed in the pre-
vention of smuggling. The Committee would, therefore,
see that there was no foundation for the objections of the
Hons Member for Aberdeen.
Sir J. YORKE would not go the length his Hon. and
Gallant Friend did in defence of the yacht establishment.
He objected to the expensive mantle' in which they were
Ornamented. the King ought of course to have a yacht to
himself, but a great portion of his Majesty's suite might be
accommodated on board the vessels of war by which the
King in his naval excursions was attended, He saw no
reason, lthWever, why those persons should always sail under
'the gilded and protecting wings of cherubim and seraphim.
—(A laugh.)
Blr. STURGES BOURNE defended the vote.
Mr. HUME was still of opinion that the royal yachts
ought.to be reduced in number ; since the 23d May, Nee,
only four royal yachts had been employed.
Sir tOWARD.OWEN defended the vote, and having;
had the honour of commanding one of the royal yachts
(the Royal Sovereign we believe) could assure the Hon.
Member that the office was no sinecure. -He had while
on board the yachts served as much and encountered as
hard weather as during the same time he could hare done
in any other branch of service.
The vote was then agreed to, as was a vote for 25,7191.
4s. to complete the sum necessary to defray the expenses
of victuals for the officers, ship-keepers, and men on board
the hulks and smaller vessels in ordinary.- •
The next item was for a suns of 17,2251. for the hire of
packets.
Mr. HUME complained of. the additional expense in-
curred by the transfer of the Packet Service from the Post
Office to the Navy Board.
Sir G. CLERK contended that the trifling additional
expense was amply compensated by the increased-expedi-
tion that had ensued from the change.
After a few words from Sir J. YORKE, the vote was
agreed to.
Sir G. CLERK, in proposing the next vote, for a sum
of 18,267/. for completing the expense of building ships at
Bombay, took occasion to state that it was not the inten-
tion of Government to build any more ships at Bombay.
Mr. STEWART contended that it was impolitic to dis-
continue the construction of ships at Bombay.
Sir T. B. MARTIN was sure the Hon. Member would
not attempt to maintain that ships could be built cheaper
at Bombay than in England. Moreover, when our own
artificers were languishing under a want of employment, he
thought our vessels ought to be built at home.
A desultory conversation ensued, in which Mr. Stewart,
Sir J. Yorke, Mr. Curteis, and Sir Christopher Cole par-
ticipated. After which the vote was agreed to.
Upon the motion that a suns of 438,5201. be granted to'
his Majesty to complete the suns necessary for defrayingthe
charges of Half-pay of Naval Officers for 1828,
Mr. HUME complained of the great increase under that,
head of expense. Before the last war the total amount of
that charge had been only 176,5661., now it was upwards
of 1,100,000/. The Hon. Member proceeded to mime=
rate the number of Naval Officers on the hooks, contending
that some limitation ought to be put to the appointment'of
Naval Officers. Nothing but actual prohibition on the part
of that House could terminate a practice which, in-the pre-
sent circumstances of the country, ought to be discontinued.
Mr. MABERLY concurred in opinion with his Lion.
Friend who had just sat down.
Admiral EVANS could net see the great boasted grati-
tude of the country to those Officers of the Navy, who,
while Hon. Menibers were lying on their beds, guarded
the shores of England, knocked about by
" The waves of the pathless main.
Like Regulus stuck on a tub, •
Amid the ocean rolling."
If young men were not admitted, there Would be noise but
old Officers in case of a war.
Colonel DAVIES remarked, that the present system
encouraged young men to enter into the Navy, and then,
after a few years' service, left them to languish in obscurity
dating their lives. This system bad cost the nation
2,900,0001. in the Army.
Sir G. COCKBURN declared there were as many old
Officers brought forward as properly could have been, but
it was right to promote young officers also. We had but
last year promoted a number of Midshipmen, who passed
their examination for Lieutenants so far back as 1816; then
there were Midshipmen frequently arriving from the pe-
rilous and wasting service on the coast orAfrica, whom it
would be impossible to send back there without promoting
them to that rank which they had so well earned. These
were cases too difficult to be resisted. These details
he was ready to explain without reserve to the Finance
Committee, who would be the most proper judges of them.
The number of Officers alluded to by the Hon. Member
were: not added to the service, but removed from one rank
to another.
Mr. HUME said, -the fault lay, not in the Admiralty.
that promoted those officers, but in the Govertitnent that
admitted so many young men into the naval service, where
they could not ultimately find permanent employment; he
never objected to employ old officers who had gone through
long services ; 1,000 midshipmen were promoted in 1816,
and 1,100 since.
Sir G. COCKBURN accounted for this, on the ground
that it was necessary to have young men always in the navy.
Mr. LINDSAY thought the Admiralty deserved the
thanks of the House for taking young men into the navy.
After Rodney's celebrated victory over De Grasse, there
was only one midshipman in a fleet of 36 English ships,
who was qualified to pass for lieutenant. The present sys-
tem would prevent the recurrence of such a deficiency.
Mr. HUME explained that deficiency in midshipmen by
the fact, that in the time of Rodney there were only 1,100
midshipmen in all our Navy, while now there were 4,000.
The sum of 65,1071. Hs. 2d. was then voted to com-
plete the charges of Superannuation! and Pensions, for the
Widows of Naval Officers.
750/. to complete the amount of bounty to Chaplains in
the Navy.
5,000/. to complete the amount of allowances to Or-
phans and Widows of Naval Officers, on the Compassionate
List.
52,0001. to complete the amount of charity for the re-
lief of Widows and Orphans of Warrant Officers.
Mr. HUME . expressed a hope that these allowances
would be placed under the controul of the Pension List, be-
fore they appeared in the House again.
Sir J. YORKE trusted the Finance Committee would
speedily report on these matters.
Mr. MABERLY stated that the Finance Committee
Was employed in going through the details.
5,0001. were then voted to complete the amount of pen-
sions to the widows of Marine Officers, and
130,000/. to complete the allowance for the Out-Pen-
sioners of Greenwich Hospital.
81,958/. 15s. to complete the amount of Superannua-
tion Allowances, in lieu of half-pay to Naval Officers for-
merly employed.
HUME inquired why sums of 145/. each above
the ordinary allowance, were continued to two particular
Officers on the list.
Sir B. MARTIN explained that they had completed
their length of service before they retired.
Mr. HUME—Why is 40/. a year superesemation
allowed to the dancing master of the Royal Naval Academy ?
Sir G. CLERK—Because he had a particular selarY
before he was superannuated-.-but such another allow-ance
shall never appear on this list again. The list of dismissed,
clerks of ships of war had been called fur by the Lose
High Admiral, with a view to bring them' back into em-
ployment according as they might be wanted.
94,6601. 10s. to complete the' amount of charges for the
Improvements and Repairs of Dockyards.
Mr. HUME complained of such an amount of exile
the
Sir J. YORKE asked the reason of removing all
Victualling Offices to Portsmouth? Potts:
Sir G. CLERK stated, that being all collected in Por-
mouth they now required but one superintendent; his
at
alone was a diminution of expense. As to the rep sirs
Plymouth Sound, the new Breakwater had stoed the
weather all last winter without requiring any further
repairs since.
£129,500 for the purchase of Provisions and Stores for
Troops in Foreign Garrisons.
£139,400 for the Charges of the Transport Service.
Mr. HUME hoped to see a speedy end to the system of
hit big transports by monthly contract.
Sir B. MARTIN stated that Government never hired
transports on monthly contracts to carry troops er stores
but when they had back service to give the traniporte.
Sir A. GRANT then left the Chair. The House re-
sumed. Sir A. Grant brought. up the Report, and ob-
tained leave to sit again on Wednesday. •
EAST RETFORD' DISFRANCHISEMENT 1111. L.
On the motion of Mr. TENNYSON, the Housew6t
foe ehelri eeh
riolgdhetn.. s
ooff
into Committee of the whole House on the East Iletford
Disfrancliiieinent Bill. Mr. J.' Wood in the Chair.
Mr. N. CALVERT Wished tOextend the elective franchise
votingßiase --w tilh*iO
and'to exclude All persons
from
eateesto the
amount of 201.. a year. Hi Moved' -that ' the ' svbrds

".whe►efure the said borough should be excluded from
hereafter returning such Burgesses" be left out of the pre-
amble, and that the following be put in their stead:—
" In order, therefore, to prevent such bribery, and that this
borough may be dttly represented iu Parliament for the

future."
Mr. Secretary PEEL suggested to the Hon. Member
that his words did not perhaps exactly apply to his pro.
posal, which was, in fact, to alter the constitution of the
borough. The words would have applied in the case of
Aylesbury, but he thought they did not in the present. Ho
mentioned this lest the Hen. Gentleman might hereafter
find himself involved in difficulties-arising from this cir-

cumstance.
After a few words spoken across the table by the CHAN..
cEtt.ou of the ExotEtlttru and Mr. CALI/Eta the motion

was read from the Chair.
Mr. TENNYSON said, that notwithstanding the feel=
ing manifested by the House on a former occasion, in fa-
vour of the proposal of his Hon. Friend, yet, after what
had passed in another place, be had hoped that his Hon.
Friend would have been induced to abandon that proposal ;
but as he had thought proper to persevere in it, be (Mr.
Tennyson) would beg to remind the House of the present
state of the question. He wished the House to recollect
that, by their vote of the 21st of March, they were not
pledged to follow the course suggested in the proposal of
his Hon. Friend. The Committee was only bound •to
consider the relative claims of the hundred of Bassetlaw,
and of a large manufacturing town ; and he trusted that,
in a case in which the current of public feeling was not in
favour of his Hon. Friend's proposal, and in which justice
was palpably against it, the Committee would pause be-
fore they decided upon agreeing to that proposal. He
contended, too, that 117 s Majesty's Ministers were no more
pledged to his Honourable Friend's proposal than any
other Members of the House of Commons. They
were only pledged to the consideration of the ques-
tion in the light they had before placed it; but if
the Penryn Disfranchisement Bill had passed the other
House, the case would haVe been widely different. Minis-
ters would have been then bound to support the agreement
and compromise entered into ; but now that there was not
the slightest expectation that the course with respect to the
two boroughs which had been approved of in that House
would be adopted in the other, it was clear that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers in general, and the Right Hou. Gent.
opposite in particular, were not pledged to the line of con-
duct they would be called on to pursue under the contrary
hypothesis. But although he admitted that the Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite was not bound to follow
that course which he (Mr. Tennyson) advocated, yet he
considered that front the course the Right Hon. Gentleman
pursued before, it would be most natural that he should.
For, upon the principle laid down by the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself, of the propriety of giving one of the
two boroughs to the Agricultural, and the other to the
Mantifacturing Interest, and considering that in the three
last instances—in those Nof Shoreham; Cricklade, and
Aylesbury—the elective franchise had been transferred to
the Agricultural Interest, it was evident that the rights
exercised by East Retford ought to be Conferred upon some
manufacturing town, or bestowed upon the commercial
interest in some shape or other. He wished the House
also to consider that the hopes of Birmingham had been
'raised--that a Bill upon the subject of a transfer, and
calculated to excite their hopes had been for some time
before that town—and he thought it was incumbent upon
his Hon. Friend to show that the claims of the hundred of
Bassetlaw were superior to those of Birmingham, before
the House ejected Birmingham from that position in which
it had been placed by their Bill. His Hon. Friend bad
referred particularly to the case of Aylesbury, but 'in the
case of Aylesbury, as in those of Cricklade and Shoreham,
the majority of the electors were untainted, -and in their
behalf it was thought just to retain the borough, infusing,
however, into the constitutional body, a principle of health
from some external source. The most convenient was
found to exist in the freeholders of a neighbouring county.
But all this was done only on account of the untainted voters
and it was never urged that the hundred or the county wan-
ted representation. Yet this was the foundation of his Hon.
Friend's proposal, and the argument to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite had, without sufficient
consideration, yielded upon a former'night. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had perceived that nothing could be more
inconsistent than the premises of his Hon. Friend. His
Hon. Friend had stated that this borough was snore cor-
rupt than any other in the kingdom, and that he had no
feeling for the electors or for East Retford ; and did he
then mean to say that this representation which he advo-
cated was to he for the Hundred of Bassetlaw, and not for
East Raiford ? His Hon. Friend, indeed, had felt the
difficulty of .finding in the borough itself a nucleus round
which a new elective body could be rallied. lie saw that
it was impossible to draw a flue of 'distinction between the
pure and the impure ; and he was compelled accordingly
to draw a fanciful line between the mass of the electors
and those rated at 201. a year. And what was the conses
quence ? Simply that his Hon. Friend was actually
obliged to select the most criminal ; for the richest electors
—the Aldermen, &c.—were decidedly the most criminal.
His Hon. Friend found it ii possible to distinguish the
goats from the sheep, so he could only select the goats
with the longest horns. But he would ask, had Isis Hon.
Friend sufficiently considered the effect of this arrange-
ment ? He should think not, for he had an assessment,
from which it appeared that this regulation would admit
bat• two individuals—two Aldermen—to the right of vot,
ing. The plan he advocated would be a case of simple
transfer ; but ,that proposed by his Hon: Friend was
decidedly an innovation : and if disposed to embark in a
new. system, Bassetlaw would not he the district he would
select, unless be were at the same time disposed to embark
•1 • •• •
against all the principles of ihe Constitution. It was no-
torious that in giving the franchise to Bassetlaw, they would
be giving the right to a Corporation of Peers. It was well
known that there was a galaxy of coronets in that hun-
dred, and that it was called. the Misery ; and, as to its re-
quiring representation, nothing could be more absurd. Was
it not represented by the Members for the county of Not-
tingham, against whom he had never heard any complaint ?
And, besides, it was to be considered that. no petition had
ever come from Bassetlaw requiring representation. The
fact was, this hundred was represented in the other House
beyond all precedent, by those Dukes, and Earls, and
Viscounts, whose lands lay within its boundaiies ; and it
was also represented by all those Hon. Members who, by
some means which he would not attempt to describe, had
found their way to the benches of that House, under the
patronage of the Noble Lords. Bassetlaw, then, it ap-
peared, stood in no need of Representatives ; and it was
evident that the independent freeholders had nothing to
gain by the proposal of his Hon. Friend, which would
. only have the effect of converting an open borough (for
.open it was to all who had money) into a close nomination
of certain Noble Lords. He had a curious illustration of
this circumstance, in the shape of a handbill, addressed to
the electors by Mr. G. Knight, a gentleman desirous of re-
presenting the borough in Parliament ; and he, well know-
ing where to apply, addressed himself to the Noblemen,
Gentlemen, and others, of the Borough of East Retford.
Mr. Secretary PEEL observed he had never seen an
election hand-bill in which the words Noblemen and Gen-
tlemen were not to be found in the address.
Mr. TENNYSON continued—He had a second hand-
bill to which he would refer; but he would first observe,
that his Hon. Friend had stated, that the Duke of New-
castle would have no interest in the elections. Now, in-
dependent of the circumstance of the Duke's having large
possessions in the hundred, it was said, that be returned
one of the Members for the county of Nottingham ; and
it might be inferred from this, how great his power would
be in a little district like Bassetlaw. The handbill was in
the No Poperyline, and came from a Mr. E. Browne, in
behalf of the politics of his Grace of Newcastle. It stated,
that as the tWO Gentlemen who had already sought the
suffrages of the electors were in favour of the Catholic
Claims, and as it was well known that the great majority
of the electors were against further concession to the Roman
Catholics, it was proposed to bring forward a third candi-
:date, upon anti-Catholic principles. lie :ould assert this
positively, for he had his information from the Steward.of
the Duke of Newcastle. lie had a third handbill, also in
the No Popery line, which came, if he' was rightly in-
formed, from Mr. Goulburn, brother to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer. It was addressed to the Independent
Electorss—(Hear, hear, from the Treasury benches)—and
it was in all probability argued, from the circumstance of
that Gentletnan's (who might perhaps be supposed to be in
his brother's secrets) addressing them at all, that there was
no doubt of the final decision of the question then under
the consideration of the Mouse.
Mr. Secretary PEEL had never heard of it before.
Mr. TENNYSON resumed. It was said it would be a
great injury-to the county if the elective franchise were re-
moved from East Retford. Fm hiMself he could truly say,
it was not his wish to injure Nottingham, but on the con-
trary, to relieve it from a flagrant nuisance. Nottingham
had at one time only four representatives'. The last act of
a peculiar prerogative of the Crown was exercised in its
favour when the borough of Newark was summoned by
Charles the Second ; and thie was not done because Newark
Wanted representation, but from a feeling of gratitude upon
the part of flail Monarch for the loyalty displayed by this
town towards..itie unfortunate father; and he begged to
ask, in what Way'had the Members ,for East Retford ever
'represented the county .of Nottingham ? The Members
I.eaurned were- not 'even gentlemen Of 'Nottingham, and
"they Were elected by a couple of hundred of poor and

insiguificant persons. In 1818, Mr. Duncombe dad
Mr. Evans had been. returned ; they were both strangers.
The Members in 1812, Mr. Osbaldeston and Mr.
Marsh ; and those in 1826, Sir R. Dundas and Mr.
were also strangers. How then could it be made out that
East Retford had given any representation to Nottingham?
Besides, even With six members, this county would be ade-
quately represented.. Warwickshire, in vvhiel there were
300,000 souls, had only six representatives ; whereas the
inhabitants of the county of Nottingham only amounted to
199,000.. He had no bigotted feeling against the landed
interest : and he begged to remind his Hon. Vyiend that he
had divided with him not long eineti in the minority in sup•
port of that interest. He would, accordingly, refer to
authority for the positions he upheld—to the authority of
Sir WilliaMillackstone, who says—
. " The Knights of Shires are the representatives.of the
landholders, or landed interest of the kingdom; their elec-
tors must, therefore, have estates in lands or tenements
within the county represented. As for the electors of
citizens and burgesses, these are supposed to be a mercantile
part or trading interest of this kingdom. But as trade is
of a fluctuating nature, and seldom long fixed in a plaCe, it
was formerly left to the Crown to summon, pro re nata,
the niost flourishing towns to send representatives to Par-
liament. So that as towns increased in trade, and grew
populous, they were admitted to a share in the legislature.
But the misfortune is, that the deserted boroughs continued,
to be summoned, as well as those to whom their trade and'
inhabitants were transferred ; except a few which petie
tioned to be eased of the expence, then usual, of maintain-
ing their Members ; four shillings a day being allowed for
a Knight of the. Shire, and two shillings for a citizen or
hurgess ; which wreethe rate of wages established in the
reign of Edward HI. Hence the Members for boroughs
now hear above a quadruple proportion to those for counties.
and the number of Parliament men is increased since For-
tescoe's time, in the reign of Henry VI., from 300 to up-
wards of 500, exclusive of those for Scotland."
At that time, it appeared these boroughs were in the
hands of the commercial or trailing interest, which have
'since taken a contrary course. But a new commercial class
has arisen since that period without the pale of the Con-
stitution, and he contended that a representation ought to
be given to this important interest, which had appeared,
by transferring to it all rights that were justly forfeited.
This class had to supply itself, having been compelled in
some sort to invade the open boroughs. They ought to get
rid of venality—that was acknowledged on all bands, but
it was equally clear they never could get rid of venality as
the representation of the country then stood. Such voters
as those of East Retford, for instance, never could be in-
duced to come to the poll except by bribery; and therefore
no opportunity should be lost of - putting the elective
franchise into fitter hands, while they at the same time
supplied a want in the representation. The landed interest
was in a proportion of 500 to 1, when the lands were
in the possession of the King, Church, and Nobles.
And it was a remarkable fact that 93 of the boroughs
new enjoying the right of ramming Members to Parliament
had been summoned by the several Monarchs in the cen-
,tury between Henry the 'Eighth and Charles the Second.
Amongst these were Liverpool, Durham, Preston, and East
Retford. He would appeal to the Right Honourable the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the commerce of
the country did not, at this moment, supply more than a
moiety of its revenue? But to show the relative advance
of the commercial and the landed interest he would make a
short statement from documents which he then held in his
hand. In 1698, the total rental of this country was esti-
mated to amount to from 10 to 14,000,0001. per annum.
In 1812 it was estimated at 30,000,0001. In 1689 the
amount of our Customs was about 110,000/. ; in 1827
they amounted to 20,000,000/. if such was the enormous
increase in one hundred 'years of our commercial (in-
cluding, of course, our manufacturing) iuterest, it did
seem very unjust to attribute such a superiority to the
landed interest as to transfer the franchise in question to
the hundred of East Retford or to the county. So much
had the influence and the consequences of our commerce
extended with its increase, that they bad made the middling
classes 'of society the depositories of the true power, • and
'feeling, and wealth of the community. Sonic there
were, he knew, who looked with alarm at the pro-
digious advances which these classes, from one and
the same cause, had been making during the• last
half. century; and he would confess that at times he
had been himself anxious and curious to know whether,
in future, their influence and power would be still
further permitted to exert themselves. Let those, how-
ever, who experienced this alarm, consider the state of the
representative system, and they would find there the true
• criterion of the justice or the fallacy of their fears. No
representative system could long subsist, or subsist for any
good purpose, which did not, to a great extent, at least vir-
tually represent, as it might profess to do, the body of the
people. If our own representative system continued to
give all its influence to the landed interest, while our
commercialinterest was making this mighty progress, it
would no longer respond. to the- exigencies of the present
constitution of society, and some terrible convulsion would
be the consequence of refusing to allow it to do so. Indeed
if the adequate representation of our commerce had been,
even from a very early period in the history of our Consti-
tution, a favourite and serious.' object of oui Statesmen,
how much more so- should it be now, when-these great,
interests of trade rind manufactures had attained st) rapid
and overwhelming a growth ? The chief source of our.
wealth was 'derived from our t-Maiitifacturing
(Hear, hear.)s—That .Was the .real• source of our 'riches.
and our grandeur. Now, looking to these considera-
tions, let the House contemplate the -prodigious rise
of the town of Birmingham; • and observe how extra-
ordinary a value its manufacturing industry communicated
to the mineral produce of the kingdom.—(Here the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman went into some details
connected with the statistical history of Birmingham,
which were lost to the gallery, owing to the loud expres-
sions of impatience which broke out in all parts of the
House.) The Houselad already determined that the town,
of Manchester was entitled to be represented, and no man.
rejoiced more sincerely than himself at this decision ; but
much stronger was the claim of Birmingham to the same
distinction. He had. proposed Birmingham as a proper
place to be substituted forsuch a purpose, in lieu of East
Retford, purely on. public grounds; and when the Right,
Hone Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) the other night ob-
served, that he had heard it rumoured that.. be (Mr. T.)
intended to offer himself as a candidate for Birmingham—
(A laugh).—the tone and manner in. which the Right lion.
Gentleman spoke sufficiently indicated that he himself,
gave no credence to that most unfounded and most unjust.
report.—(Hear.) • :The Hon. and Learned Gentleman con-
cluded his speech, which was constantly interrupted by
cries of " Question,. question," with. an appeal to the
Committee on behalf of the claims of Birmingham to the
forfeited franchise of
.East Retford.
Mr. N. CALVERT denied that the landed interest
claimed or met with that paramount consideration from
Parliament which the Hon. Gentleman spoke of. All
asked for was adequate protection.
Mr. LUMLEY spoke in favour of the transfer of the
franchise to the adjacent hendred.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN warmly opposed this.pro-
position ; and supported the claim of Birmingham. (The
frequent interruptions which the worthy Alderman expe-
rienced in the course of his speech render it impossible to
give any detailed report of • it. At one part of it, he de-
clared " that he never had been, nor would be, put down.
by clamour ;" but the cries of " Question," and o spoke,.
redoubled precisely at that moment. He then entered into
some reasoning to skew that it was the duty of the House
to listen to him on a subject that regarded the representa-
tion of the people ; and was proceeding with some account
of " the first Borough which was visited for corrupt prac-
tices, after the revolution," when he was again assailed by
cries of " Question." Hereupon, he euggested that it
might be better for those Hon. Members, who found it in-
couveuient to listen to him, to withdraw ; a suggestion,
however, which was received with much laughter ; and
this excitement was considerably increased by a young
Member's gravely calling out " withdraw, withdraw," as
if a division were about to take place. A " stranger" in
sii
onn t rtuhtaht,
liseo xstircaarteigdez7
the seemed,
e l
tt
oh e Gallery,slabour
1 whodet
but perfectly " at home," responded to these exclamations
by some ridiculous remarks, uttered in a rune so indeco-
rously loud, as to defeat, for some time, every chance of
our hearing the Worthy Aldermen.)—He could not sit
down without expressing a hope that, in future, that
House would upon no occasion govern its own conduct by
what it should consider likely to be done in another pla.ce.
He hoped the House of Commons would always d? `:"
was just and right in its own view, utterly regal'al" het
what might be the course elsewhere
An Hon. Member, whose name we could not.learn,
said a few words which were innai:uibpoleiiinwthhiechgallelyin
lie
Sir G. PHILLIPS was of opinion that the manufac-
turing interest required more attention as to representa-
tion than the agricultural, because time manufacturing in-
terest was of a more diversified character.
Mr.' Secretary PEEL had already shewn by the vote lie
hadba givenstated
ths
ctalsiee hofadPtoerYsay on the general gee tion—
that he had.no invincible objection to transfer the lective
franchise of a corrupt boroogh to a place of inanin' luring
importanCe. , He did thigh, however; -there -was 'a great
difference betwixt the cases of Penryn and East lb
As be hard already stated, he thought it fair to loot: at the
whole case; 'and to take into consideration the'forn

nett led to cii'
duct of the boroligh. If that were tk
the .him' tli
decision
._°f tee
e 0,,
the warnings given to Penryn, by
House, upon cases of former misconahlet, liust °e.,, di
i
witted to weigh materially against. the‘F Phee•
,le `..n, 60
.think, also that it was a plain intellig 'UAe::Pri-c7r t
which, he bad acted in that case, the takfil into ~viliae
the forty-two Members of. the one county r'''",_,eaass
the elective franchise was taken, and the eigh leu_.°;teel
to the other county. Upon these grounds be . la' ibee
to transfer the franchise to Manchester, and beca•lr a_ be
were no such ingredients in the case of East Retied Iby
preferred acting on the. principle always maintains . 0
throwing the right into the hundred. With reference ,:..
the complaint made by the Hon. Member opposite (14':,
Tennyson), of his (Mr. P.'te) allusion to the report tit'
he was to be the chosen candidate of Birmingham,..°:
ti°'
begged to remind the Hon. Gentleman that the observa
was made in answer to an imputation upon his side of'.!l°'
House of a desire to give the advantage to a great Noblerev
If actuated by personal motives', he should certainlyleli,
his vote for Birmingham, as there was no place in wlitc,,
lie Wes so deeply interested.—(Hear, hear.)-He he;
nothing, and' had never heard of the hutsoired of
before that occasion, and the only candiaite of that el;
he had heard of was Mr. Gaily Knight, of ewhain he k"`:r
nothing but that he was the author of a
parrephlet in ftj
of Catholic Emancipation, which could not b t euPP°66Lat
-recommend-him to his choice. It had 'bee ni enf'P'fi-„,
'that, he, and those who voted with him, r
for in,l
10,y
'maul by the circumstance of the brother of ti le C", .
'eellor of the Enehequer being a ' candidatee
ael
hundred' of Bassetlaw. He bad known' - _moth''_ v
this till he had entered the House that ,evening, be"..o,
had learnt since that the gentleman alluded' to eras a . ~
didate for the borough of Bast Retford itself, which' ee•
pletely changed the direction of the accusation. With
l
spect to the House of Lords, he knew nothing of what b°,
been elope or was intended with respect to the Bill thud
He adhered to the opinion he had formerly. given, Oa
agreeing with the Hon. Alderman, that great care ou0!:;,
biTe:gexthereceisleetd..tiivn'etree-7_
ifniaatnteerii,o,ffrtolimis
Eastkinel ,Rheetfporeniferrto,edthe
by
died of Bassetlaw rather than to Birmingham.
Mr. LITTLETON thought this was a question 131„,
liarly regarding the interest of the manufeeturing poPno
tion. In Nottinghamshire there was one Member for ~..%I,oe,
people. In Warwickshire the representation was ote e:.,
scale of Ito 40,000 of the population. Uponevliat pritmoo
ciple then could Warwickshire be excluded ? Birneiceel,
was, in many respects, eligible" for the transfer of the .0.
tive franchise ; it was united -in feeling througheiialcitif
whole population, and, as a place of importance, scare #
inferior to any in the kingdom. He bad made an oiling
of the amount of legislative enactment with 'referetin
that place, and he bad found that in Canal diets,'
the
Bills, Church Bills, and Local and Police Acts, in eo
course of twenty years there had not been fewer than,t,
for Birmingham. It contained .1,90() master mann,
turers, and possessed a greater variety of trades thate:loo
to be found in any other part of the country with iii
~4
same compass. (Hear, hear.) Its export trade conin,
chiefly of iron, which was not an exotic, like cotton
the
silk. Few every one pound's worth of iron, articles to be
value of 1001. were manufactured. This would give ita
House en idea of the useful nature of the industry of td,
place to the labouring class of the
.community. . -14,,,
milted he felt some interest in the peosPerity of Bierevira
' hani from his connection with it; but he voted ilpeil If
present occasion upon a great constitutional principle. et,
Ile was an enemy to Parliamentary Reform lie should,
tl
thie Bill to Le thrown'out. ' 014
Mr. STANLEY, upon constitutional grounds, sh° fa
at:fohr
he
forms
believed
:,
nd
tiif.nftoherttdahitoewnyiatosdfwis,
give his vote. tor the transfer of the elective franchise loof
the corrupt borouel, of East Retford to the Boroufeb jo
Birmingham. They were told they had nothing t° fa
with what was passing elsewhere. But was it possibigiat
that House or the country to pretend that they did opt
know what was the fate of the Penryn Disfranchiest'a)
Dill. The' Right Hon. Geutkinan (Mr. SecreeeiY.l:,oo
had told them that he did not decide this question waa.
principle. It was, however, decided upon comp!! '
and with compromise that House had nothing to do. oe
the principle hitherto acted upon had been to give the Li
ponderenee to the agricultural interest, the 000 Pee 'Poe
retraced their steps the better. There- was alresdl
branch of the Constitution exclusively devoted tote
:cultural interests. . God forbid it should be odes
but it was equally the duty of that House to looko to
jower order of interests. They had, to be sures ire the
House, the Knights of the Shires- to represent .the
agricultural interests, but the great body of
House was intended to represent the beroughs;
opt
he contended that it was their duty, wino to
borough had ceased, from corruption, to be ahlefud
exercise its functions, to transfer the right to 070;
place of the same rank in legislation. But why addities
privileges should be given to the freeholders of n,
Retford, and of the hundred of, Bassettaw, who alres,/,
had votes for the county, it passed his ingenuity, and '
believed that of every other person, .to discover. If Pr;
portions were to .be observed, . they should.. look tel,„
county of. Chester, which contained an immense, a weibte
aed a manufacturing population, and which . wee.,,ser
sented only by two Members for the county,,and:terni
hers for Chester, a town situated is the western ozn7itt
of the county, anti quite remote from its manufactov,::'
population.. If, however, the House consented to' hi:),
weuld.callit a miserable;comprotnise ; the principle °Plie,.
go, altogether, as it had, hitherto done,. in . favour 9e. hi
landed interest. It had' gone so . in, the last instance ;
g.: g.
four Members to the county .of, York, and in ,ti
two. or three former instances the franchise, 'as opens"))
the neighbouring hundreds, which, had so . far set
~a ty
precedent, and every other instance, would. but leule,t
case still worse, wherefore he would give his bup._o#
the meesure of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Tennyson), PeTte
he acted
,on the sound principle of reform; Metall ei
eion of reform. be bad no wish to introduce, but he P;,4
objection tp, reforep ,when introduced on sound -r -fel
principleee he had
,no wish for sweeping measures 0
where there was a constitutional case caught. hold °f'
principle was - .
ee ~..—e—.eaudaque pilos, ut qui=
Paullatim vello et demo unum, demo etiam unulle
Dion cadet elusus ratione ruentis acervi," .00
until the whole mass of corruption was by degree° thee
asiatin.:;:aiyiynga.ttoe.
nHfmo etrellnaw;nsaasrsdogfnrgootritioonumadn:tdhrtoeoohmfarteiestieii
feuoai.
rtl:hroepaffo.neoardxm:coe
nsieibottuiteteeytt:wt,
constitutional
was a gross and palpable' case, that could come toidefaee
exercise of Parliamentary law, then he would not deed o;
, idi,(!eo,:cir.trioibestiogTrtnhhep.nedtrrnooie:cemsr;oeseningnst)ii
(Hear, hear.) So strongly did he feel the nerce.`tYtal
:no:
continue
frome)etehsstiieh.nomßt
should
I lied, :
chancep ih
efrtpiolopit
of
seifnet .his
correcting,i
ho nae ndhodufatdyphari sut
to
lihta
hboeoari
palpable
: earriv7bA t at
I;
trs.„,)
lblrtsvPhahlta,ißl:eittpcer.iipser,slvo.vtt..im appointment eol 1
ehnoketeuod twofß Members
it must iiievitahly fall, if the amendment were agreed I/1;W
11Ir. L. FOSTER said that the question *MY 04
called on .to decide was not - between Birminghag° tg
• Beesetlaw, but as. to whether. they were.. then w led,
precedent ever after to be followed—that of. an e°,,t,g3)
popular representation ; for in this Session they had sir
and
given a pledge to that effect in. the case of PentY°:a -lel
if they did so in a second instance, they v/o°.ll/.1
bound by that precedent. (Cheers from the Opposition!,l.lo
He, knew, the ,meaning of those cheers ; but he deeirn it
House to Wok to the inferences which would be elerlid
the next year by those Gentlemen who had thue.ebeemei
and see whether they would not deduce strppg erf.,,) id
from this precedent. The Hon. Member (Mr..alor.
had talked of
-checks by.the three estates upon each %001,
dia:suleoaesot:
Hkedomitnnte.iiiratAinliyuetnimhtoab:teitianicchrivisecr,:kreohs.e.ei7oltre,::ijor,
exist in a Constitutional Government, and in eyerY vr.,,
of those estates. They were told not to look to theeriraii
that House. He, was anxious P;r01 ic
1
rvseole"eto:vot: from
ta
were there not sufficient chicks, and was not each illoie
r
shshould whether
u:d h
have
pae suti
itisltnydoi
fairaf :et
Itu.t.
ernt iWestia: India,ditlooking,
might Protestantteoto thelfound
ou:C11.411:50
at the course about one to two thousand,
,and be, !Tiled
atihmisit7otßE,
to be
sow Oushloduladt once ho seen
_.,'"' i 11l
founded were the rumours that 'the ,change prow'',';
only intended to increase the power of the aristotlic.
as e hte.akfeelnt
withi t hi s dutrespectyin the 7;;;:16,,
he now express ee)a, t
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel). His Right Hon' jlieti
thought that the cases of Penryn and East.RetfOrd ° a
be dealt with on grounds of expediency. That eva%o,
the course he would pursue, as he would deaLleithi el
cording to' the dictites of justice. He said then es,
7tif)t
said last Session, that he did not think the House jaueeil,
in taking away the franchise of Penryn ; for after I°y
fifty electors amillted, a
had epgoluiencinotuot,tleiraew were
thateifound was theone hundr! vr,
rees e
o l''
had voted against the Bill being sent up to the Lorl''of t.
was sure it would 'meet the fate which it was vaiu 0" ee'
attempt to conceal, it being well known that it.''i°' fefe
at all: ' events, -see far us' respected Manchester't ce-e,
Retford, however, was one ''of the most corravocr,
ever witnessed, for' there. it was not even At, 001:1
-to-Wshown that there were 20 who were not s"( 1 lit
and 'yet what kind of principle was that they beeib
called on to sanction? eVifilyiethat of the v