The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-05 00:00:00

STAT.E OF EUROPE.

_ .
On the motion of the Marquess of LONDON..
E.P.11", that the House do resolve itself into a
-Committee of Supply,

Mr. C. H. llllTc;rissoN rose to submit the
motion of which he had. given notice. He began
'by; observing that it was not his intention on the
present occasion to interfere (as some Hon. Mem-
ners seemed to have imagined) in any degree
with the subject on which a Noble Lord (Lord
VI. Bentinck) had given a notice. If he thought
that his motion would anticipate, or at all inter-
fere with that of the Noble Lord, he certainly
-would not press it ; but feeling that both sub.
jests were quite distinct, he would press his,
which he considered of serious importance. In
entering upon so vast and important a subject, he
was conscious of his own inadequacy to the task.
Jfe would, however, open his vietv of it to the
House, confident that it would be ably enlarged
upon by those Hon. Members who should sup-
port him. Looking at the present situation of
Europe, he could not but feel considerable ap-
prehension, as well at the nature of the events
which were passing, as at the conduct of this
government with respect to them. When the
situation of Italy was brought before Parliament
in February last, Ministers declared that it was
not their intention to interfere with Naples. The
paper which was atthat time laid before, and made
the subject of discussion in the other House, de-
,clared.that the intentions of our government were
those of strict neutrality ; hut, nevertheless, they

were not backward in showing what:their feelings
were, and how far those feelings were against the
cause of the Neapolitans. It was then contended
that the object of the Austrians was not aggrandise-
njernent, but the security of their Italian posses-
sions. It was then thought by many, that the
Neapolitans and other Italian States would have
had sufficient force to repel the aggression of
Austria, and glad he would have been if the
whole of the force sent by the tyrannical govern-
ment of Austria had been destroyed. But what
had happened y Naples was now completely
under the Austrian yoke ; the kingdom of Sar-
dinia was likewise in her possession ; but not-
withstanding this, we found that an immense
body of Russians were rushing from their woods
to give assistance to Austria, which he sincerely
regretted that Austria did not need. Thus we
saw that Austria was in full possession of Italy—
the Russians advancing in great force to support
that power; while she was preparing to govern
her newly acquired possessions, for such he
would consider them, with a most bloody code ;
Greece was in a state of disturbance, and Spain
so much alarmed for her own safety as to be
obliged to proclaim Military Law. He would
ask the Noble Lord (Londonderry) whether he
could continue to see tyranny making such rapid
strides over Europe, without advising the in-
terference of this great Country, to prevent
its triumphal establishment ? The Honourable
Member then went on at considerable length to
show that it was the policy of this Coun-
try to prevent the ambitious views of Russia
and Austria from taking effect ; that the peace of
Europe, as well as the security of England her-
self, depended upon such timely interference.
The object of those despots (for by no other
name would he describe the Allied Monarchs)
was, he contended, nothing less than the
destruction of civil liberty in every part of
Europe ; and, he maintained, that they would
attempt it in Spain and Portugal, if unchecked by
the interference of this country. The principle
of such interference would, he said, be by no
means new : England had on very many memo-
rable occasions interfered to preserve the balance
of power in Europe. She had waged a long war
to preserve it against the ambition of Louis X[V.
Our late war with France was on the same prin-
ciple, and he feared that if we did not prevent
it by timely interference, we should have to enter
when it might perhaps be too late into another
war to check the ambition of Alexander. Eng-
land had also kept herself in an armed state for
fourteen months in consequence of the aggressions
of the Empress Catherine of Russia, and a' sus-
picion that she was about to occupy Oczakow.
No person at that time was so absurd as to sup-
pose that the safety of England itself was me-
naced at that time. No : her interference was
gounded on the principle of preserving the balance
of power in Europe. The Hon. Member then
contended that the situation of the Russian and
Austrian armies at the present moment, and the
professed intentions of those two powers, called
loudly for the interference of this country; and
that the Ministers would not do their duty if,
on the march of the first Russian or Austrian
army towards Spain, they did not declare open
war against whichever of those powers should
first attempt the invasion of that country. He
also maintained that we ought to declare war
against France, if she suffered any of the allied
troops to pass to Spain through her territories.
He would go farther, and state that the first hos-
tile movement of Russia for such an object as he
had mentioned, ought to be immediately followed
on our part by the sending of a large fleet to the
Baltic, and blocking up every one of the Russian
ports, which would soon have the effect of oblig-
ing that power to retract its measures. Nor did
he think that the exertions of Ministers (if they
at all viewed the conduct of those great powers
with jealousy) ought to stop here : he would
have England enter into an alliance offensive and
defensive with Spain, be on good • terms with
France, and by such means, by the aid of our
navy, we might defy the attempts of all the des.
pots of the world united. If some such steps
were not taken speedily, he thought they would
come too late. If we did not take a command-
ing attitude now, we might wish in vain to do so
when our wish would not avail us much. He
had no doubt that Austria and Russia were act-
ing with views of territorial aggrandisement, and
about to do on a great scale that of which the
Noble Marquess (Londonderry) had, in con-
junction with the Ministers of other Govern-
ments, set them an example at Vienna and Paris
in 1814 and 1815, and at Aix-la-Chapelle in
1818. They had before them the example of
Belgium annexed to Holland, of the stripping of
Saxony, of the surrender of Genoa to Sardinia,
and many other instances of gross injustice per-
petrated wad sanctioned to aggrandize favoured
powers. Such examples would not be lost on
them, and such, he feared, they were too well
disposed to imitate. His object on the present
occasion was, that his Majesty's Ministers should,
by a timely interference, prevent the attempts of
Russia and Austria from taking effect. He felt
satisfied that Europe was not safe in its present
state ; and to mark his sense of the situation in
which we stood, he would move, as an, amend,
ment to the motion for going into a Committee
of Supply, that the house should resolve' itself
into a Committee to consider the state of the na-
tion as far as regarded European politics. His
object, on this occasion, was not to retard the
Navy Estimates, which were to be moved in the
Committee of Supply ; but he thought the pre-
sent opportunity ought not to be lost, and that we
should interfere before it was too late. The
Hon. Member concluded by moving his amend-
ment, which was seconded by Sir R. Wiesner.
On the amendment being put from the Chair,
_ _

The Marquess of LONDONAERRY said that he
was sure no Member of that House would feel
disposed•to counteract the spirit of the amend-
ment of the lion. Member for Cork ; but an
amendment of such a nature appeared to him
quite foreign to the present question. lie.knew
that great latitude could be taken on a question
of supply, and that there was no topic connected
with the policy of the country which might not
be entered into on such a question. But really
he was not prepared to enter into a discussion on

the state of Europe, when the question was the
supply of Navy Estimates ; still less was he pre-
pared, on such a question, to take an enlarged
and particular investigation of European politics,
ever so far back as the seizure of Oczakoff. He
was not prepared, when the House was to go into
discussions on the Navy Estimates, although he
had heard of the notice 'entered on the orders by
the Hon. Member respecting events passing in
Europe, to hear statements of the nature now sub-
mitted by the lion. Member. He had supposed
that the notice referred to some propositions to
dispense with the Navy Estimates on -account of
the state of Europe ; but instead of suggesting a
plan for cutting down the Estimates and of call-
ing the attention of the House this night to
economy, the lion. Member had come forward
with observations which might have been more
naturally made in the form of an impeachment, in
a committee on the state of she nation, against his
Majesty's Ministers, or rather against him parti-
cularly (the Marquess of L.) as secretary for
foreign affairs, for not having placed the country
in a state of armament. The Hon. Member must
really excuse him if he did not accept of the
good advice he had offered to him, either by
explaining on this occasion all the views of
the Government relative to the state of Europe,
or by justifying their conduct in having failed to
demand money of Parliament for arming this
country against the other States of Europe. The
lion. Member Irad offered a great many advices,
among others,, the blockading of all the ports of
Europe. Many other very salutary instructions
the lion. Member had offered, which certainly
were very much thrown away upon his Majesty's
Ministers. Ministers did not see exactly how
they could make use of those instructions; per-
haps the Hon. Member did not see his own mind
so clearly as to state the use Ministers ought to',
make of his views. He (the Marquis of Lon-
donderry),must also decline to plead to the ac-
cusation of having neglected to place this cowl-
try in the relative position which it ought to oc-
cupy ; nor could he be expected to do so unless
the whole state of Europe were under the consi-
deration of the House. It was not to be gravely
said that Ministers ought to be goaded to call for
money from Parliament for the purpose of inter-
ference in the affairs of other States, and to jus-
tify the -views and considerations on which they
had failed to make such a call upon Parliament.
The lion. Member must excuse him from either
justifying the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers,
or calling upon Parliament to vote money for in-
terference with the Powers of Europe. Hon.
Members on the opposite side of the House ought,
for their own sakes, not to be so ready in giving
their advice respecting the affairs of Europe. He
had formerly heard many advices given respecting
Naples, when lie had declared that his Majesty's
Ministers did not feel themselves called upon
even to give an opinion respecting the situation of
that country, and respecting other powers, for the
course they had thought necessary to pursue.—
He had also thought it was _ then extremely in-
discreet to discuss the proposition whether we
ought not to interfere with Austria for the mea-
sures she had adopted against the danger which
she apprehended to her dominions. He (the
Marquis of Londonderry) would very much ad-
vise Hon. Members on the opposite side to ex-
ercise their minds on subjects accessible to their
judgments, and to, apply their judgments to events
which have been realized, and which cannot mis-
lead their fancies. lie would advise them to act
on realities, to confine their theories and pro-
phecies to subjects which had really established
themselves to the understandings of the world,
and not to discuss possibilities, or rather impos-
sibilities. He advised this exercise of prudence
and discretion, because the contrary course of
conduct was a waste of time, and because it de-
rogated from the weight which the opinions of
the lion. Members ought to have in that House.
With respect to the Russian army, he had only
to remark that it did not follow, that because it
had been put in motion with a , view to certain
events which had now ceased to call for its inter-
ference, it was in motion now. lie begged not
to be understood to say that the Russian army
was not now in motion. lie would not prophecy.,
and would not be understood to prophecy, that the
Russian army would not advance further. He felt
not the slightest disposition to accumulate false pro-
phecies :• he would state what he knew to be fact;
and by doing so he would explain how the Russian
army had come to be put in motion. Certain events
which had Occurred in Europe had been made the
subject of panegyric by some Hon. Members—
panegyrics in which he had not concurred ; for
in his view," though liberty might grow out of
those events, yet he never would dignify with the
name of liberty military insurrection for pulling
down•all-the-'establishments of a country, or for
putting up, or faking the chance of putting up,
other establishments in their room. One of those
military insurrections had taken place-in Pied-
mont. • •,The lattt Monarch had resigned in favour
of his brother die-Prince, who acted as Regtnt,
and soon withdrew from the kingdom; and the
first act of the new government was to declare
, ,
svar against Austria. He would say nothing of
what position Austria might have assumed ; but
the declaration of war came from the children of
liberty. In this situation the King of Sardinia
applied to Austria for assistance in putting down
the insurrection of his subjects ; and Austria ap-
plied to Russia for forces to support her against
the attack threatened by the Piedmontese. In
consequence of this application, Russia ordered
troops to march from the Turkish frontiers, and
part of them, he believed, entered the Austrian
'dominions, It did not follow, however, that
because • they were once in march,' they
must continue in march. The insurrectionary
Government of Piedmont soon ceased to exist :
it was put down by the loyal troops of the King
of Sardinia, and very partially by Austrian troops.
The Austrian troops had only shewu themselves
on the frontier. The Hon. Member on the third
bench (Mr. C. Hutchinson) ought to have hesi-
tated before he charged Austria with any designs
of overrunning Piedmont. Count Bubna had
had nos instruction to interfere in time proceed-
ings ; and when, in the exercise of what the
Noble Lord thought a very sound judgment, he
determined to enter into the territories of Pied-

motet, he Interfered as little as possible. This
did not savour very much of a grand plan of over-
running the world. Ile must then protest against
this mode of coming down to the House, and
putting his Majesty's Ministers in a state of ac-
cusation for not having sent armies to disturb the
peace of Europe. He had said before, and he
could now carry the declaration down to the,
present moment, that nothing had occurred to
afford ground for interference on the part of
this country, and that no reason. had appeared
for suspectino. the Powers of Europe of any in-
tention of a.hostile kind. This country, he ad-
mitted, ought to watch with jealousy the great
movements on the part of the continental powers ;
but peace was an ohject of the first importance at
the present moment to this country, and therefore
we ought not to interfere without a real necessity.
He was fixed in the_pnrsuasion that his Majesty's
Ministers had followed the only true line of po-
licy, and that the interests of this country were
not to be found in meddling with the affairs of
the continent. No circumstances had yet occurred
to call for our interference : he would not say
that no circumstances might occur to make our
interference necessary and proper; he would not
fetter the Government by such a general propo-
sition ; but at present our soundest policy and
our best interests were consulted by ❑ot meddling
in the proceedings on the continent.

Sir fsaAc CoiriN trusted that the Hon. Gen-
tleman who moved the amendment would; from
his conviction of the necessity of maintaining a
large force by sea, attempt to make some addi-
tiou3 to the navy establishment.-
Sir R. Wir.sox said, it was his firm opinion,
that the Noble Marquis and his illustrious Col-
leagues were so completely entangled with con-
federate 'tyrants, that they could not pursue the
proper policy, even if they felt disposed.—
(II ear, hear!)--He had no doubt -the Noble
Marquis had seen with satisfaction the overthrow
of the new Constitution of Naples, because it
benefited the people, and because it was calcu-
lated to protect those rights which Spain was
now so determined to defend. The Noble Mar-
quis had thought fit to taunt them with the vic-
tory of the Austrians. He (Sir Robert Wilson)
did not mean to .deny the disastrous calamity
that had occurred ; but still he saw no cause for I,
despondency, he could see no reason for that
abject and cowardly despair. If there was
cause for any despair, it was of that manly and
generous quality that fired men's minds with
noble sentiments, and urged them' on to ac-
tion and to arms.—(Hear, bear !)—Does the
Noble Marquis forget the state of Austria ?
ls he ignorant of her situation with respect to
the affairs of Greece ? Under these circumstances
he saw no reason for Austria to triumph, nor for.
Europe (aye, and the people of England amongst
them) to despair. We have still all the mate-
rials for a great war; we have innumerable mul-•
titUdes, we enjoy a position by nature impreg-
nable. It would be only necessary for Spain to
say, like ancient Rome, " Our country is in dan-
ger," ahd she will find thousands rushing for-
ward to assist her, merely because she is opress-
ed, and all animated with the glorious spirit of
protecting the liberties of mankind. If the
Greeks should prove themselve worthy of free-
dom, it will be a novelty in their character ;
still all men must rejoice at seeing such an im-
provement in so interesting a people. With re-
gard to the motion of his Hon. Friend, he was
sure he had no disposition to provoke hostilities;
he was actuated like himself with a disposition
to preserve the independence of England ; for he
should never like to see her in a condition in
which she would be unable to support the station
to which she was entitled. It was for this reason
he did not vote for the reduction of the army,
because he thought it necessary to intimidate fo-
reign tyrants, and he was sure that his constituents
and his country ivouid do him credit for his mo-
tives.—(Hear !)
Colonel DAVIES said, that he understood from the speech
of the Noble Marquis, that the Russian troops would not pro-
ceed farther than where the last accounts left them.. He wished
to ask whether the Noble Lord was in possession of any official
information to that effect. As to the conduct of the Italians, it
was of so dastardly a character, that he was become quite indif-
ferent to any,thing which might Wel them.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that he could not
have received any official communications upon the subject.
He had only reasoned that the object having been accomplished
for which the Russian troops were put in motion, they would
' now return to the stations which they before occupied, •
Sir R. WILSON begged to ask the Noble Marquess if 'he
could inform the House whether Alexandria was in the posses-
sion of the Austrian troops or of the Sardinians.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY repeated his state-
ment as to the march of General Eubna, which was without
the orders of the Austrian Government, and in consequence
of a requisition from' the King of Sardinia. He could only ob-
serve, that that fortress surrendered to a Captain of Dragoons
and 60 men.

Sir R. WILSON said, that the question was not at all af-
fected by the amount of the force. Ile had heard that when
the garrison surrendered, the keys were given up, and he wish-
ed to know whether they were delivered into the hands of the
Austrian or the Siirdinian troops.
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY could not answer the
Hon. Member's question, for be had never heard of the
anecdote.

The amendment was then negatived without a division.
A Message was received from the Lords, announcing that
their Lordships had agreed to the Bank Cash Payments' Bills,
the African Companies' Bill, and some others.
Upon the *motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON rose to reply to what had previ-
ously fallen from the Noble Marquess opposite. He was not
disposed to believe that the real object of Austria in calling in
the PUisian troops, was her own protection. She could not
have bad so much alarm at the proceedings which had taken
place ; and if she had, the result proved. how much she had
been mistaken in hrr calculations. -•

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that as one
of the most' distinguished Officers of the age (Sir R. \Yam)
lied been so far mistaken in his estimate of the measure of re-
sistance which would be opposed to the Austrians in Naple's
and Italy, the /lon. Member could not complain of the mu-
take to which he had alluded.

Sir R. IVILSON and Colonel DAVIS explained.
Uon the motion being again put from the Chair,
Mr. flumE rose to oppose going into the Com-
mittee. After paying some compliments to the
Navy, the lion. Member proceeded to argue that
it was kept up at too great an expence to the
country. The principle of his objections to these
Estimates referred to the items for tear and wear,
in which very great reductions ought to be made.
He did not mean to say that considerable re-
ductions had not been made in the gross
amount of the Navy Estimates, but he contend-
ed that they ought to be carried much farther.
In the year 1815 the Estimates amounted to
5,985,0001.; in 1818 to 6,5.47,000/.; in 1819
to 6,520,000/. ; in 1820 to 6,691,0004 ; and
this year they were decreased to the amount of
350,559/.• The House would theyefore recollect

that he was not arguing upon the ground that no.
reduction had taken place. He would ask the
House whether the country was in a condition to
support the expence ? . There was some difficulty
in ascertaining the exact expence of the Navy in
former years; but it was clear that the Esti-
mate for - the year 2 Iva* 40.,985,000t.
for 16,0(X) men. The Su ly now Calivi for was
'all' together six minions, and the nurnbei of men
was only 6,000 more than that voted forlhe year
1792. No one could deny that this difference
was greater than it ought to be. He would now
advert to the number of ships, for the purpose of
looking at the expence' of the- three principal
Offices connected with the Admiralty. In the
year 1813 we were engaged in a very extended
warfare, we had upwards of 600 ships in com-
mission, and upwards of 300 in ordinary. A large
establishment, therefore, for these offices was un-
doubtedly necessary. The expence of the Navy,
the Admiralty, and the Pay Office in that year
amounted to 189,227/. Now, we had but 11 9
ships in commission, and .582 in ordinary ; and
yet the expence of these Offices was only 8000/.
less than it was in the year 1813. Before the,
House went into a Committee upon this subject,
he thought it highly .desirable that they should
consider whether these offices could not be re.
duced. If so many ships could be managed in
cornmission.at the expence he had mentioned for
the year 1813 ; it was fair to conclude that 3
much less expence was necessary for the
management of so reduced a number of
ships as he had mentioned with reference to
the present time. lie now came to another very
important part of the subject—he meant the
Dock-yards; and upon- this subject of expence
he wished it to be understood that his observation
applied not to the workmen, but to persons
holding higher situations. The expence on this
head in the year 1813, was 212,1431., and the
estimate now proposed was 210,7451., being only'
1398/. less than the expence of 1813, a year 0f
very heavy 'var. The difference in the Ordinary
Estimates was also very great, as compared with
the year 1792, being Upwards of a million more
than the estimates of that year. In the Extra"
ordinary Estimates the increase of expence in the ''
last two years was no less than two millions. It
was stated that we had twice as many ships °,.5,
the united navies of the rest of the world. '"
this was the case, it became a question whether
it was necessary for us to go on with this in'
creased expence. The improvement in the Dock-
yard it was stated amounted in the last 3 years to
upwards of a million, and it was added that
another million would be required for their com-
pletion. He could see nothing to justify- this
enormous expence, or to warrant the great dis-
parity between the expence of the year 1792 and
that of the present time, especially as we were
now in the same situation (as regarded the con-
tinent,) in which we were in that year. He was
satisfied that at all events the necessity of re-
trenchment would be clearly shown betlveen the
present time and the next year; and that the
retrenchment must ultimately be adopted. The
Hon. Member concluded b.y moving, as an -amend
i
ment) a resolution declaratory of the amount °f
the the comparative expence for the years 1792, 1811
1821, of the several departments referred t°•
his speech. • •
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER *said, that alth°l34ll
he should not follow the Hon. Member through:
his several details, many of which were 0,r°0,..
neous, he should nevertheless touch upon a le
_f
of the more important points. The Estimates.:i
the year 1792, which had been so much retie
upon by the Hon. Member, did not constitour,L,
the whole of the expence of that year by a civ-
siderable sum. With regard to the Admir"-,110
Offices, it was to be observed, that originally t.. 14
i
saernvoeuratiltedOffitocearscon‘sFiedreer.alipleeidsunhly
afnedPst,hilsvbfil:ioer
r, %-.
psi wasnoce
since
ytheaerndyl osed.a er
This system
a. ys my
ise,tniel thet
emfgorhroawat h
beenOo fffitclei
eressheou_ fe. !,.,:"8A;
blishments had been productive of economy-
,rt
the House would he better able to decide uPue..
the subject in the Committee than upon the_Pote
sent motion, he should refrain from any lini
examination of the lion. Member's details. ea
The Amendment was then put and nega!,ic if
t• 1 se
without a division, and the House resolved

into a Committee.
,ropese
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER, in rising to r; -0 her
the Estimates, observed, that the lion. I'vle'nTe
(Mr. Hume) had adverted very frequently t°
moderate expenee of the year 1799. ; but it that"l
impossible to judge fairly upon reference to cv,
year. A .salary of 10Q/. a year at that period j'ericl
often led to perquisites of 10001. a year and
more. The system had now been altered,
regular salaries were mbstituted for perclijs,,,..
,
Now, a public officer had no inducement to c(1;i0
tenance an abuse ; and he was encourage",h,
have no object in view but the promotion.° 'ric
public service. The introduction of tasl‘-wc"„,
and of a check upon the expenditure of the
yard, had very materially contributed to the, 01'
minution of the expense. He was happy to in',
the House, that the Naval Service had bee'd
brought to such a state of efficiency, that it I
been found perfectly safe to issue an order %re,
discontinuance of one-fifth of the works.
duction of this description must of course be 4' u 24
dual, and it could not be expected that vniears
reduction would take place in the earlierny„ on
of peace. Inquiries, however, were the
foot, whh the view to a reduction, 11°' -f the
inferior Clerks, but of the higher OfficercL, Year
Establishments ; and before the close of the :vs
would be carried into effect.
it was confidently expected that those reclucLi°:_as
been determined that as vacancies occurred
should not be filled up, but that the duties ofre'r
vacant office should be transferred to ot°,,e
officers.—(Hear, hear I)—The present estimate
was increased by particular and local circut°: _
stances; especially those connected with no:
Board of Longitude and the Expedition of Disc
in the Law'
very 'and there was also an increase the
Expences. He had also to state that as
Widows' Fund was principally supported by teer
ductions from the pay of seamen, whose
was now reduced, it became necessary to provide.
_6.
for the support of this fund.out of the
Already it
hney
The Naval Asylum was about to be rectilcc`?
•

and the reductions he believed would take effect
in the course of the next year. The Right Hon.
Member was About to move the Resolution for
. the Estimates, when
Mr. BERNAL rose, and said it would be necessary that the
Estimates should be moved in distinct and separate items.
Sir G. WARRENDER said, that the course from time
. immemorial was to move them in the way he proposed.—
He concluded by moving a Resolution for a sum of .Z 2,484,000
for the ordinary gxpepces of the Navy for the year 1021.
Mr. BERNAL said, that although the Right Hon. Member
congratulated the House upon a prospect of reduction, he yet
• called for a vote of two millions at once. He (Mr. B.) thought
the sums should be voted separately, as many Members would
probably have different views upon each of them. He trusted
therefore that the Rt. Hon. Member would modify his motion.
• Sir G. WARRENDER said, that although the course he
had taken was almost universal, he was willing to afford every
facility to the discussion of the subject, and would meet the
'wishes of the Hon. Member. He had a distinct set of votes
already prepared—(A laugh !),—and he therefore should move,
first, that a sum of 70,5901. be granted for salaries and other
expences of the Admiralty Offices.
Air. BERNAL made some observations against the Reso-
lution, contending that he saw no use whatever for six Lords
of the .A.dmiralo.-. He then adverted to a Report of the Finance
• Committee, which stated the offices of Vice-Admiral of Scot-
land, and Paymaster of Marines, to be useless. He concluded
by Proposing an amendment, making the vote 67,0901. Ss. ld.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN maintained that the
Offices prOposed to be abolished were essential to
the proper management of the navy. The Board
of Admiralty was in a great measure of a civil
character, and it was necessary that proper per-
'ens should be chosen to the office. With all the
lie felt
which he could give to the subject,
felt impressed with the conviction that six
,as the best number that could be 'adopted,-
wo, three, or four would not be equal to the
, ,he
duties of the office, and out of the six
.-ne thought it absolutely necessary that three
• should be naval officers. It was no less neces-
' sari that the other three should be men well
`7 read in the laws of the country, considering the
•l replicated nature of our naval relations in times
'lke the present, so pregnant with danger and
mischief all over the world.
Sir. JOsEPU YORKE said, it was with pain he
rose to answer his Hon. and Gallant Friend ; but
he thought retrenchment alone could save the
country. This had been stated in that House
over and over again, and had never been denied
by his Right Hon. Friend with the white head.
(A- laugh.)—Great stress had been laid upon the
statement that there might be a difference of opi-
nion between two ; but it had been forgotten
that one of them was dumb.—(A laugh.)—He
'lever said a syllable; though his Right Hon.
Friend got up an annnal speech and let it off.—
(Cheers, and laughter.)—His Right Hon. Friend
bad talked about law expenpes ; but the first
Lord was a lawyer, and the Secretary was a
lawyer; so that there was a lawyer at.the head,
and a lawyer at the bottom of the table. He had
no doubt the establishment would go on as well
-with five as with seven Lords. The Marquess
of Camden had been thanked by that House for
.I!ving up a sinecure in the Exchequer ; but an
ilen• Relative of his had given up 20001. a year,
and Ministers had not said a syllable about the
matter.
t, Mr. ROBINSON said, it was quite new to him
i:lat either of the Lords of the' Admiralty con-
eeted with the Civil Department were dummies.
(k laugh !)—He was sorry his Honourable and
o,allant Relative had stated this;
.for he (Mr.
°l4inson) declared upon his honour this was not
h'e fact. He (Mr. Robinson) accepted one of
eale offices at the request of his Wonourable and
1,104 alit Relative, who said that he (Mr. •Robin,
tiuesj`pid assist him ; and he particularly re-
e" that he might be appointed to an office
npore,there were duties- to perform. lie declared
,to b" conscience that he believed the offices
e usefui
Sir r •
detl °SENT -YORKE explained. He did not
the office had been useful to his Right
Coi 'lend. The Admiralty was called the
- loge
`for sucking Statesmen, and his Right
fro Relative had made a hop, step, and a juinp
to tl, office to the rank of a Cabinet Minister.
rn ao r',Wmtla said, he never had heard from any
%it °1 honour and truth (as the Honourable and
assert."' member certainly was) so singular an
11,„. 4)a .as that which had been made by the
eand Gallant Member. He felt it his duty
3ir
:ntradict it.
•
ORGE .COCKBURN explained.
13,t1;r- CREEvEv said it was impossible to decide
een. the conflicting lion.
called opinions of the on.
erne
•-• opposite. The House was, in fact,
bees Upon to vote. the .Supplies, for eight mem-
Adttflaf Parliarnent who held situations in the
that 'll:y., and who, he had no doubt, would
had ,' ltght vote for their own salaries. Much
teeti" been said about reduction, and much hadhow Pr°lnised. Now he would tell the House
1141 bmuch would he reduced—just as much as
thou een reduced from the Army Estimates. He
go fagrilt the motion of his Hon. Friend 'did not
riot enough, as he saw no reason why it should
tiveg° to affect the three Lay Lords as well as
les, . Ile had no objection, however, to it as a
Q„,.
i."umg, and as such should give it
his support.
11,,a0g• thatsAdA,criC,!7l:lN. observed, that it was not a little surtnis-
of•those Ae),vac,'e the 100 g time the gallant Member (Sir .1.
rem-
_y.finFcted wit.h the Admiralty, they never heard any
th:ir J. I.„?,!1E had indu.lt;e.d in that evening.
th...8„112
w,-/altv E. t.he. Hon. Baronet would have acted in
lifsttl..iad he
~,..niTriselt, similarly sisuated. He knew very well
ern iro J• Yorke) once uttered any of these sentiments,
,Laui,}l,_have been turned pretty soon to the Admiralty.
AirV)
ultE commented at some length on the
lhativtlet:s o,f the Marine Establishment, and said
Ivas a n Omee of Major-General of . the Marines
oltlit one, and that the person who held it
44, pe allowed. to receive half pay from
4 •Y tither service.
Paymaster
contended that alsaiary of
ei. a Y Par to
Pro_portiona to the trifling service he per-
th glee. He thought there was-no necessity for
()Fficeof • Secretary to the first Lord of the Ad-
,,,,l4,ity—at all events, the person lialdine. it
104 not to fill any other •
.'"t Mr. Hay,
.7' person •
to of the Cornmissionersh
tiutalliviaigs
000fficncotet'elli,Ivit appeared
°tlaer(l' He then dwelt on the expence attendant
11)4."1: payment of widows' pensiousand • d
great redaction 0 insisted
meat, ugut to be made in that
-* "'coca- said,
kr c
he had never felt more pain
01 he experienced at h
t7lOl. and Gallant Prie _earing the speech of his
4,Tre had been °He " He did think that if
1110 to have
s, wan who would have dis-
eotlo,. tuck to Ain ard ch_ --Lee at the
nruter expense of
it was his 11 •
on.-d an Gal-

lant Friend—(Sir J, S. Yorke),---and he had
thought that when he voted with them, not once
or twice, but many times, he was supporting his
own opinions, and not acting from any love of
office. He supported the 'original grant, and
contended, that if t reduction in the number of
Lords of the Admiralty took place, and the .at-
tendance was thereby rendered more arduous,
additions must be made to the salary, as
one thousand pounds a year would then
be an
,inadequate remuneration. He ac-
knowledged that the situations of Generals
and Colonels of Marines were sinecures ;
but, he contended, they were cheap and proper re-
wards bestowed on those whose names were found
highest on the roll of glory. He need only enu-
merate the names of Nelson, Saumarez, Keith, and
Duckworth, all of whom had been Colonels of
Marines, to convince the House of the truth of
what he had said. As to the officers at the
Board of Admiralty receiving half pay, that
was now a matter of right, and even a Lieute-
nant or Captain holding such a situation as Col-
lector of Customs would also be entitled to his
half-pay. The Secretary of the First Lord held
an office of such high trust and confidence,
that it never had been considered as sufficiently
remunerated by 3001. a year; and from Lord
Howe's time down to the present.the Gentleman
filling that situation had always received the first
vacant Commissionership which fell. He would
not say whether it might not be better to vote a
larger sum on the- estimates; . but on the modera-
tion of the remuneration, even of the two offices,
there could be but one opinion. The Hon. Me-
mber had spoken of the Paymaster of the Royal
Marines as Paymaster only, but be was, in fact,
also Inspector, Quarter-master, and Barrack-
master; and he would beg to refer the House to
the Report of the Finance Committee in 1817,
for an opinion as to the importance of the office.
That Officer gave security for his office of
20,0004 and that alone entitled him to the sa-
lary. He defended the office of Paymaster of
Widows' Pensions, on the ground of the great
increase of duty to be performed, and if it were
transferred to the Navy -Office, as the Hon.
Member (Mr. Hume) recommended, the Officer
who did the duty must be paid, so that no saving
would accrue to the public.
Sir J. S. YORKE said, he apprehended, from
the solemnity of the H 0.,. Gentleman's opening,
that he had conceived him (Sir J. S. Yorke)
guilty of a great moral offence; but if he was to
lose his friendship unless he agreed in his opinion
of the necessity of seven Lords of the Admiralty;
he feared he could not retain it.
Mr. BENNET urged the necessity of retrench.
ing the public expenditure in the Naval Depart.
ment of public service in all the items pointed out
by his Hon. Friends.—Mr. CROKER. explained.
Mr. WAItRE supported the Amendment, be-
cause he thought two lay Lords of the Admiralty
might very well be dispensed with. He was pre-
sent at a former discussion, when it iirst urged in
support of the appointment of the lay Lords of
the Admiralty, that it was a good academy for
young Statesmen; but absurd as that argument
,was, it was never then held, as on the present
occasion, that these Lords were so efficient, so
useful, and so necessary.
Mr. llntE made a few observations, amidst
general cries of" Question."
Sir J. Yoitxr. said, before the House divided,
lie was arr:ious to receive some information from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on a subject
which he could never satisfy himself upon when
he belonged to the Board of Admiralty. He al-
luded to the increase of salary which had been
made to the claims of the Excise and Customs
Boards, at the exact period when a diminution
had been made to their duties, by the establish-
ment of the Preventive Service.
Sir F. OMMANNEY said a few words, in a tone of voice
inaudible in the Gallery, when the House divided :
For the Amendment - - - 77
Against it - • - - 115
Majority - - -—3 B.
Before our re-admission to the Gallery a second division took
place on the motion for a reduction of the grant of £lOOO. The
numbers were :
For the Amendment - - - 55
Against it - - - - 118
' Majority - —63.
The next resolution was for a grant of £38,924 to defray the
expences of the Navy Pay Office.
•
Mr. HusiE begged to.direct the attention of
the House to the fact that this Establishment
cost the country more now when there were only
six millions to pay, than when there were twenty-
two millions to pay. The House was perhaps
not aware that this Department had no more to
do with the payment of the Navy than, that
House had. That office did nothing but give a
ticket to the individual, which was presented at
the Pay Office, where it was again exchanged for
another upon the Bank, whence the money was
eventually issued. There was a treasurer, who
was very useless in his-situation ; and many ad-
ditions had lately been made to this establish_
merit, which were only calculated to increase
the expence. Upon the whole, he thought the
charge for this establishment would very well
bear the reduction of 10,0004, and he therefore
moved that the grant be for 28,9244
Mr. ROBINSON said, with respect to the nature
of the office, the Hon. Gentleman was mistaken.
The Hon. Gentleman had quoted the Finance
Committee, to show the duties of the office were
those of an ordinary Banker. It never appeared
so to him. The Treasurer of the Navy was re-
presented to have little more to do than pay bills,
but he had the difficult duty of inquiring how
the orders for money were obtained. The Trea-
surer of the Navy had to exercise a discretion,
and its more than one instance had been exposed
to an action at law, for acting on his discretion
and paying' demands. The discretion he exer-
cised was most beneficial to the Navy. There
was not less than 21 offices, and 400 clauses,
in Acts of Parliament, N,vhich prescribed the
duties of the Treasurer of the Navy, and
it was not easy at first to understand the na-
ture of the duty. The Inspector's branch and
the Allotments' branch were of great importance.
The fernier was necessary to prevent frauds on
seamen. Many years ago a line-of-battle ship
was lost, and the whole crew perished. There
was a woman skilful in personating wives and
children. She personated 200 relations of the
dead seamen, and by administering to forged

received the prize money of all those persons
which led to the establishment of the Inspector's
branch of Service. No seaman would he safe if
it did not exist. He would be frequently de-
frauded of the produce of an honourable and glo-
rious life. The Allotment Branch was equally
important; and if any prejudice was done that
office, the public service would be materially in-
jured. The duties of the Treasurer of the Navy
were upon the whole more extensive than Gentle-
men generally supposed.
Sir J. YORKE, adverting to the Allotment Department,
could not suppose the duty to be so extensive in peace as during
war.

Mr. LUSHINGTON bore testimony to the heavy duties of
the Treasurer of the Navy.
Mr. BENNET complained of irregularity in the mode of
paying seamen's wages, and contended that some alteration was
necessary.
After a few words from Mr. liumu and Mr. WARRE, the
amendment was negatived, and the original grant agreed to.
On the question that the sum of C 5,529 be granted to his
Majesty to defray the contingent expenses of the Navy office
for 1821, •

Mr. HUME asked if there was to be any reduction in the
salaries of the Seeretaries of the Navy Office ?
Sir B. MARTIN said, the salary of the chief Secretary had
been reduced, and other reductions would take place.
For defraying the expences of the Victualling Office,
for 1821 - • - - 4'45 488
. - 7
For the expence of Deptford Dock Yard - 28,781
For defraying the expence of Woolwich Yard - 29,802
Mr. HUME objected to the employment of men upon half-
labour, as it was termed, in the Dock Yards. - •
Sir BYAM MARTIN stated that the arrangenient had
been made to find employ for a number of men whose families
must otherwise have gone to the poor house* Had they been
discharged, 3,600 persons would have gone to the poor houses.
Mr. JOHN SMITH explained.—The sum=iras then granted.
To defray the expence of Chatham Yard . - X 35,438
For Sheerness Dock Yard - - 24,078
For Portsmouth - - - - . 49,000
For Plymouth - - - - 43,533
For the Officers of the Out-Ports 10,325
To defray the interest of Exchequer and Irish Trea.
sury Bills - .
To be paid into the Bank of England, in the name
of the Commissioners for the National Debt, as
one hundretith part of 29,009,9001. ordered to be
paid off by Parliament
The House resumed, the Report was or-dered to- be received
on Monday, the House then to resolve itself again into the
Committee.
The other Orders of the aDay were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at HALF PAST ONE O'CLOCK.

1,000,000