The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-03 00:00:00

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cr tminal, and history told them how a predecessor in—," aw was in such a state as required alteration. He had i
office of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, • never used any political allusions in introducing the
Lord Chancellor:Wriothesley, had assisted in stretching : Bill, and he was astonished at his Noble and Learned
the rack. The .Istoble and Learned Lord who now fillet ' Friend's having done so.
that office, might be accused of some peccadilloes, but be The committal of the Bill was negatived without a
felt certain he would not act as Lord Chancellor Wrioth- division, and the House adjourned at Half-past Eight
.e.sley had done. A practice also prevailed of never con- o'Clock.
+Ms
fronting the prisoner with the witnesses fur the Crowne—
HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 2.
their depositions were taken in private. The prisoner
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
who refused to plead Under all these disadvantages was
NEW MEMBER.
subjected to what was termed peine firrte et de,'e, so as to
Mr. HunsT took the oaths and his seat for Horsham.
make him plead. Weights were placed upon the unfor
T
tunate criminal, in the language of the law, "heavier the Han. Gentleman was introduced by Mr. J. A. Smith
d the Earl of March.
as
than he could bear." It w further laid down that no
The Bow Brickhill Estate Bill was read a third time
witness "against the King" should be sworn, lest the
and p
assed.
jury might believe him ; and this vile practice
The Newbury and Basingstoke Railway Bill was read
continued until after the Reformation. In their
a third time and passed.
own time, timid women, or infirm old men,
The
or persons ignorant et* tii: language, or deaf and dit:isb Lords' amendments to the Norwich and Brandon
-
Railway Bill were agreeette.
persons who were tried tor their lives, could not employ
The Lords amendments to the Great Western Railway
counsel to defend them. lie regretted to say, that ,
Bill were read and agreed to.
although the Noble Lord on the iveolsaek possessed
Mr. BOYD presented thirty-six petitions from the
much of the milk of human kindness, he - opposed
North of Ireland, praying for an Act to legalise Pres-
the Prisoner's Counsel Bill. However it passed into a -
byterian Marriage; in Ireland.
law and worked We'l, and rensived disgrace from our
Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from
laws, and a scandal Irons the administration of justice.
Bridgewater, against a continuation of the war in India;
But to all these bad laws he had quoted, the pretext
also a petition from Creditor, in favour of the extension
might have been urged, that they had been borne by the .
i of Parliamentary reform; also a petition from the Lei-
country without exciting nine's complaint. He was
tester Complete Suffrage Association, for redress of
happy to say that Sergeant Starkie and every other
grievances.
person to whom he had explained the principles of the ,
Sir J. Y. BULLER, presented a petition from a place
present Bill, expressed their entire accordance in them.
, in Devon against the grant to Maynooth College ; also
lie hoped their Lordships would approve it. He trusted
petition in favour of the abolition of the duty on
the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack would : a
foreign sugar ; also a petition against any alteration in
approve of it, and that he would not act the part of Rha-
, ;the corn laws.
damanthus.
" Gnossius bloc Rh rn adainthus liabet cluriaiima I . Lord EBRINGTON presented a petition from twenty-
, nine solicitors at Plymouth, against the Ecclesiastical
regna ; . Courts Bill.
Castigatque auditque dolor, suhieitque fateri.
- Mr. Bill.
presented a petition for the aboli-
The LORD CHANCELLOR slid his Noble and
tion of the duty on policies of insurance against hail-
Learned Friend who had moved the committal of the
storms.
Bill before their Lordships had sat in that House for :
Mr. YOUNG presented a petition from the north of
now a period of three years. Daring that time he had
, Ireland, praying for an Act to legalise Presbyterian
shown himself anxious, on every occasion that presented
marriages.
itself, of introducing some measure or other to the s
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented 'a petition from the
House, partly for the purpose of occupying Maisel r, and
~ parish of St. James, Clerkenwell, complaining of the
partly for the purpose of conveying inforinatien and in-
, employment of the police in the collection of poor-rates;
struction to their Lordship's min,lS.---(Laughter.) And
also a petition for the amendment of the Reform Bill ;
yet it was most singular that during the while of this
: also several petitions against the Masters and Servants'
period it had never occurred to his Noble and Learned
Bill.
Friend's mind to suggest the propriety of adopting any
Lord ASHLEY presented a petition from Glasgow,
measure of this kin; and it • was only int the eve of ,
with 33,000 signatures, in favour 'of the Ten Hotirs' Bill;
Easter term now progressing, when a case of some
notoriety was depending in another part of the
also several petitions from other places to the same
:
kingdom—(Hear, hear)—a case of the deepest ins- effeo.
Mr. BECKETT presented a petition from Halifax
portance—it was not till then, -when he supposed that :
aga
that case would come to a speedy terminetion, and that inst the Manchester and Leeds Railway Bill:
Mr. BRIG HT presented a petition from Oldham-
judgment would be pronounced `upon it, that, his Noble 'cum-Fell praying that the 30th and 31st clauses of the
and Learned Friend, for the first time. 113,1 thought it'
Factory Bill might be expunged ; that children under
right to bring forward this ineiteueea--(llear, hear.)
eight years of age should not be worked more than eight
Never had he (the Lord Chancellor) heard bins make ,
hours a day ; and that there might be no restriction on
mention of the subject before. And he nth, , Lord Chan-
labour of persons above that age.
cellor) did not hesitate directly to state that the Bill now :
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE postponed the following return,
before their Lordships was brought forward for the par- i
of' which he had given notice for to- day, for a fortnight—
pose of being applied to that caee.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
(the Lord Chancellor was n ,t, in the Thus° when the
Return- of all moneys paid to Mr. Hodges, or any short-
llßill was brought in, and he knew that bid Noble and hand writer or writers, fur notes taken of the proceedings
Learned Friend on that occasion hal protested that no in the Court of Queen's Bench, Dublin, previous to and
during or since the trial of the Queen v. O'Connell and
reference to the pending trial was in his mind when he
others ; also, a return of all moneys paid for any notes
first concocted it. Of course he was b amil to believe his
taken of the proceedings at Conciliation Hall, between
Noble and Learned Friend's declaration ; but in dohs..
the Ist day of August, 1843, and the present time.
so, it could only be by supposing that his mind had beau
Mr. WYSE postponed the following motion, of which
led away by its own enthusiasm and zeal, for he (the
he had given notice for to-day, for a fortnight :—For a
Lord Chancellor) was' quit t persuaded there was
Committee to inquire into the allegations contained in
not a single person in that House, or in the
the petition, presented the 21st day of March, from the
country, could come to any different conclusion
than that to which he had come, namely, that the Bill the late membrs
State pro se of the Repealcution Associlreationlan and others, respecting
e in
was directed to the proceedings now -pending against
Mr. GODSON, on the part of Mr. F. Kelly, postponed
certain parties in Ireland. But his Noble- and Learned
for a fortnight his motion for leave to bring in a Bill
Friend would say it was impossible he could be so in-
to provide an appal in criminal cases.
fluenced, and that their Lordships need not rely on his Lord SANDON presented a petition from Liverpool,
professions alone, inasmach as he had introduced a
against the application of any money for the establish-
clause into the Bill deferring its operation until the Ist
went of a harbour of refuga at Holyhead.'
of August next. But let their Lordships' look to that I UNION WORKHOUSES.
clause, and say if it was possible for this Bill to pass
Mr. WM. EVANS, seeing the Hon. Member for
with it. Was there ever so thin and so ft i til sya veili a?
Berkshire in his place, wished to kreew whether it was
Why, was it possible that if this Bill should p ass i
his intention to proceed with his motion with respect. to
law that their Lordships could retain that cause ? 1
! union workhouses ?
Could they, as men of common sense, retain it ? What
Mr. PALMER said it was not his intention to do so.
would be the effect of it hut this—that their Lordships .
would pass a law which they thought a proper one, ART-UNIONS.
whilst at the same tiine they would pass another law, or i Mr. WYSE. seeing the Right Hon. Baronet the First
rather a clause of a law, expressly against those indivi- Lord of the Treasury in his place, wished to ask him
duals who, between this period and the Ist of August, i whether the opinion of Counsel, which had been deli-
might be found guilty of mialemeanours?—(Hear, hear.) vered to the Treasury on the legality of the Art-Unions,
Was it possible to be supposed that their Lordships were could, without inconvenience, be laid on the table of the
to be led. astray by such flimsy pretexts- as those ad- House ?
vanced by his Noble and Learned Friend? For his own • Sir R. PEEL said he.had no objection personally to
part, he declared if that Bill passed into a- law, he produce it, but the House-had generally felt an objection
(the Lord Chancellor) would be the first to move the Ito have the opinions of lawyers laid on the table. Ile
omission of that clause which, in fact, was put in merely I thought it a pod rule, and he should adhere to it in
to. lead their Lordships to the conclusion that the ors- this instance.. He did not apprehend that the Govern-
-merit had any intention of instituting proceedings against
. ginator of it was not thinking of Ireland, and Ireland
the Art-Unions. It did not rest with the Government
alone,. when lie drew it up. But let them not look only
• to institute to the clause itself, but let their Lordships reflect upon such' proceedings ; but he apprehended that
the Art-Unions were liable to be prosecuted by the com-
the history of the proceedings which had been going on
and then say whether this Bill had not been brought in' mon informer. These bodies had received the earliest
intimation as to the illegality of their constitution.
for a temporary purpose, and for one single object alone.
M
But, atter all, what this Bill ? A more miserable r. WYSE. hoped that any measure for legalising the
specimen of legislation it had never been his (the Lord Art-Unions would have the support of the Right Hon.
Baronet.
Chancellor's) fortune to have witnessed. Worse than
all, it was a law for the rich, and not for the poor. The
poor man who had been convicted had, by that convic-
tion, lost his character—with that he hail lost all pe-
cuniary means, and all friends—and therefore all power 1
of getting bail. The poor offender, then, woe condemned I
to abide and suffer his punishment, whatever it might
be. -But the wealthy mum—the rieh offender—had re-
sources. He obtains bail, either by the application of
his o*n means, or the aid of his friends. Such would
be the impartial operation of that Bill.—(Wear, hear.)
Mark again how the Bill would operate. A man
is convicted of a grave misdemeanour, which subjects him
sal y to two years' imprisonment. Ile is advanced in
life, and a few months' imprisonment may probably have
the most serious effect upon him. Ile obtains a writ of
error by means of his purse ; he crosses the water, gets
out of the jurisdiction of the court ; if the judgment is
reversed :he returns, aid it' it is confirmed, he con-
tinues on the Continent, living in luxury and ease, and
laughing at the judgment; against him.—(Hear' hear.)
Suppose he was a political partizan, and had com-
mitted some crime about politics, but had many sup-
erters and friends, as was too commonly the case. '
What does he do ? Ile says " I will wait the
course of events ; a few votes in the House of
Commons just now are of importance, my influence will
assist in this." He waits, receives a pardon, and returns
In triumph, having set the laws at defiance. Take
another case. A man commits a crinie which expels
him from society ; he is tried and convicted, but gets his
writ of error. He goes off, and, as a matter of choice,
it is not very material where, so he also sets the law at
defiance.. Such would be the effect of the indiscriminate
aoppeal here proposed. But there were misdemeanours
1, various character, some of them being liable to
punishment of transportation. Peeing.; was, only in
name, a misdemeanour, but it was visited as a ' ' •
paniele-
anent by transportation. Obtaining e r Istinder
, eo a false
pretences was a miailem, '
punished
but it was it 1 • ‘quently,
and most properly, transportation. But
whet would be the effect olfitchis blayw, supposing the mis-
demeanant had means at his
petol'ontsatunid r Why, he also
would get free from allto
livet
in
(ete preferring, us
doubtless he would do, Paris rather than
to go to Van Dienien's Land, er to
lie
(the theLo :jocks of Nor
, folk Island.—(Hear, hear.) Chancellor)i
mentioned these as some of the instancesr some of
the consequences of the passing or this 83711. here
were many others he -could adduce, but he saw
no cessity for so doing. The subject of appeal ina.a., the"e
. hands of his Right lion. Friend the Secretery of the
Home Department, who, with the assistance of the law
officers of the Crown, had nearly prepared a general
measure, which his Learned Friend the Attornef-Gene-
ral would submit to the consideration of Parliament
within a very short period. Ile did not say this for the 1
purpose of giving an answer to the present Bill. He 1'
objected to it because he was satisfied it was brought for I
t 3 particular purpOse alone. As such, it was a vicious I
principle; and upon such grounds he had now to move 1
' their Lordships that the Bill be committed that day six
months.
Lord BROUGHAM said, in his opinion, legislation,
to. be useful and sound, ought always to be grounded on
a general principle, and not to -originate under the
pressure of any peculiar circumstance or case. Their
Lordships, in legislating, should never be induced to I
look at any subject through one particular medium; and
fearful ' that this was the case in the present instance,
_ though he was Sure wholly unintentionally, he thought
it
better the Bill should not be carried an • further. He
wished it, however, to be understood that he was strongly
in favour of some sound amendment of the law upon this
subject, .
As, hoatver, it was now understood from
authority that the subject had been fully ente-tained by
the
his Government
and
as he
was
h;.and that a measure was all but ready;
yesterday witwithPssof
to say, front a personal interview
Learned Friend, Sir William Follett,
that his health was ay renovated as to enable him to
andi
attend to business ntroduce the subject at once to
the notice of Pa. Nugent, he thought their Lord- .
ships would be acthtiong
present
aresmeeist
'moment
part to leave
- the matter for
His leisure would no doubt bemptrnoloest usefully- employed
moment ae it was.
for the public in digeSting a iftettstire npon the
' subject. He could not agree with Noble Friend that I '
the Attorney-General had the discretion he had stated I
upon writs of error. He thought they
course in this country which they did in Vtaadopt the
have so excellent a Court as the. Court or (7)cea'oaen„'
which was one of the greatest benefits that I.l"aassi-ii'
- conferred by the Revolution of 1789. The Noble Lorden
would support the Bill.
Lord COTTENLIAM supported the Bill. It was with
• tutaisfaction that he had heard that this very measure was I
under the consideration of the Government, because it !
showed that the measure was unobjectionable, as lied been
• asserted, and that was an admission that the law ought
to be altered. As the law at present stood it was most
' absurd, and required revision.—(Hear, hear.) Was it a
• wholesome state of the law if, when a party was c in-
Yicted and sentenced, and who questioned that sentence I
in a superior Court, he was to be imprisoned during the
time the propriety of that sentence was being discussed.
• - The LORI) CHANCELLOR said that the subject
tender the attention of her Majesty's Government tied
law advisers, was an appeal in criminal cases.
The Earl of WICKLOW opposed the committal of •
the Bill.
' • The Marquis oie
He CLANRICARDE supported the
committal of the Bill. H had heard many speeches
from the Nob'e and Learned Lord on the woolsack with
great pain, but he had_ never heard one Keith more than
that which he hid delivered that evening. He had i •
shown that the opposition to the
entirely founded upon the chance of was
mainly
and
1
of not being able I
wrongfully to imprison the individuals now under trial
in. Ireland. Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL replied—His Noble and Learned I,
- Friend on the woolsack had not the courage to oppose
- the principle of the Bill, because he admitted that the

CHURL 11-RATES,

Sir C. DOUGLAS put a question to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury, as to whether he intended to bring for-
ward any motion respecting the petition he had pre-
sented, impugning the conduct of two magistrates
in Warwickshire, with respect to a process for church-
r►tes. The Hon. Member had got the petition printed
and circulated, with the intention of making a motion ;
and he had not done so, though he had an opportunity
of doing so on Tuesday evening. He thought he had a
right to complain, on the part of those whose characters
were censured, that he had not done so.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said the petition which he pre-
sented had impugned the conduct of the magistrates on
the subject of church-rates. He (Mr. Duncombe) be-
lieved that the magistrates had acted most illegally
in the affair. However, the present was not
tile proper time for discussing the subject. The
motion relative to the matter stood for next Tuesday
week, when the Hon. Baronet would have an opportunity
of vindicating the conduct of those magistrates if be
thought fit.