The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-05 00:00:00

_SATURRAI MORNING, JULY IMS.

mountable eleslacie to improveinent, under the plea that they
had a right to depasture cattle or sheep in these Commons
from October till April or May. The whole benefit, in fact,
went to the lord, and the poor cottager :cos too frequently
deprived of all advantage. - Tffete were several portions of the
year in which this benefit could not be enjoyed, The of jests
had been well explained, however, and under the impression
that this Bill would lead to a great improvement of the
country, he then fere viewed it with great swisfactien ; and
he thought that it ought rather to be entitled a Bill for the
imsrovement f the labnuring classes.
The Earl of LINCOLN said he might well leave this" Bill
to the House without any remark, but he felt that some ob-
servations had been especially directed to himself—otherwise
the Noble Lord opposite had so fully answered all the objec-
tions which could possibly be preferred against the Bill. The
Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had objected to the
principle of this Bill, but surely if he did so, he ought to have
objected to the principle of every Bill which hal been pro-
jected and brought into the House and become Acts of Parlia-
ment fur the last twenty years, for they were all based on the
same grounds. The lion. Member had celled this a landlord's
Bill, but the real truth was that the whole object of the Bill
was to preserve the iights of the poor. It did not contemplate
any restrictions on thee rights which had not previously
existed. The Noble Lord opposite had said that he had no
ols;ection except to the details of the measure. The lon. Mem-
bers for Montrose and Rochdale had expressed a particular
anxiety to preserve those rights of which so much had
been said, but there were no rights which other inelosure
bills had touched which this Bill left unregarded. Those
Bills had all been submitted to Committees of the House of
Commons, and he thought that a Committee of that House
was a very fair tribunal. But it was only the rich who were
able to avail themselves of the advantages of this tribunal. But
the poor man had no means of coming before that House. If
he were oppressed he must put up with the evil in silence, but
by this measure he was provided with the means. By one of
the clauses of the Bill, if there appeared any wrong had been
committed, a number of independent parties were appointed to
investigate the claims of those who were iejured. On crivate
Bills there was ale aye a great expense, but by this Bill all
inciiisures were to be effected by pubic Bills, without any con-
cealment whatev: r. If any private rights were invaded, or if
any existed which were not invaded, there would be an oppor-
tunity of inquiring into the grievance, without any unnecessary
expense. By the form of the present Bill it was yovided that
the Commissioners should annually report upon the lands that
were to be enclosed, and on that report a public Bill was to be
based, which should go through its regular stages is that House.
Not at the time of private business, when pei haps only two or
three Nlembers were present, to know anything of its previ-
sions. but at the timeof public business, when the House was full,
and every portion of it mtglit undergo the most searching investi •
gation, arid if the Commissioners should commit any grievous
b under, there vs ou:d be an opportunity for any Member to detect
and expose it. The lion. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S.
Crawford) was atixious that the poor should have all the rights
they were entitled to. But, therefore, the Hon. Member
should recollect that where the rights of the poor were affected
compensation was provided, and that these were not rights
which could be said to be handed down from generation to
generation. 'There were no personal rights whatever impli-
cated. They were rights attached to the grounds and nothing
more. The same principle was adopted in this Bill which had
been brought forward by Mr. Whittle Harvey in 1839: The
Hon. Member for Rochdale again seemed to he yeti, apprehen-
sive that allotments should be made of those grounds which
had been appropriated for recreation, and he lamented that no
ground was to be set aside for any places which had not more
than 10,000 inhabitants. But, if he would look to the 13th
clause, he would see that a certain reservation was made with
regard to those towns which had a population of only 10,1;00.
and that a district was allowed which always comprised
a much larger number of persons than properly belonged
to the town. Even had any oversight been made, the atten-
tion of Parliament could always be drawn to the point, so that
no great injury could possibly be done. By the celculations
which had been made, it was proved that a sufficient space
could always he allotted for air and exercise, without in any
way interfering with the property that might be improved. In
Ireland and in Guernsey the allotments were exceedingly
small, and yet, though the inhabitants were therefore
evidently of the poorer classes, no difficulty had been expe-
-1 ienced. By the 126th clause all the expenses were provided
for. They were laid on the persons who were best able and
most entitled to bear them. But this was a matter of little
consequence, for it appeared that the. expense would not be
more than one-eighth or one tenth of the advantage, as had
evidently been shown in the Committee of last year. On
these grounds he hoped that the Bill would pass through all
its stages in the House as quickly as possible.
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the amendment
For the original motion
Majority —llo
The House then resolved itself ikto Committee on the Bill.
On Clause 1 being proposed, which related to the mode in
which the Commissioners were appointed,

Mr. C. BULLER objected to the Bill, because of the great
power which it placed in the hands of a Government Board.
There %sere but three Commissioners, one of whom was of
necessity the Chief Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, the
seeaud was unpaid, and the third (a paid Commissioner) was
liable to removal at the pfea<ure of the Ministry. He meant
nothiog disre.peatful to the Noble Lord (Lord Lincoln) at the
head of the Woods and Forests. He (Mr. C. Buller) believed
that the duties imposed by this Act would be as purely adminis-
tered by the Board with which that Noble Lord was connected.
as by any other of the Governm, nt Departments, but he op-
posed it upon principle, and should have done the same if the
Bill had been brought in in the same shape by the Noble Lord
beside him. Lords of tl e Treasury, they were aware, might
be in the same way-removed as this third commissioner.
and they were very apt to believe those gentlemen influenced
hy party considerations. —( Laughter.) The same suspicion
would attach to the present. case. He particularly objected to
empower the Woods and Forests, the holders of the Crown
lands, to &cid, the peculiar questions which would be brought
before them; and on these grounds he would propose to employ
the machinery which had been heretofore in use. He desired
an authority which would be competent to fulfil the duties im-
posed by the Bill, and he desired that that authority should be
totally unconnected with the Government. He knew but of
one such authority, and would, therefore, move that all words
after " that" be left out, and that "the Tithe Commissioners of
England and Wales" be inserted instead.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that the Honourable and
Learned Member had stated his objections in a fair and candid
spirit, and as far as he ( Lord Lincoln) was individually con-
cerned, he should have no objeati,tn that the arduous doties
imposed by this Bill should 'se removed from the department
with which he had the honour to be connected. At
the same time he could not help pointing out, how
differeetly Honourable Members on the opp ,site side had
viewed the question on former oecasions. He del not antic-
pate the evils which the fertile imagination of the Hon. and
Learned Member had conjured up, and he trusted that the
Hon. and Learned Member would not try to make the Hou e
believe that the power placed in the hands of the Woods and
Forests would be used for party purposes. The Hon. and
Learned Member had referred to himself, as Chief Commis-
.ioner, but he was associated with other two; and with re-
spect to the power of the Alinistry to remove the third Com-
missioner, that was, he believed, common to all Commissioners
—( Hear, hear)—to the Tithe Commissioners as well as
others.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member said,
also, that this Commission was appointed by Government—but
were the Tithe Commissioners cot also appointed by Govern-
ment?—( Hear. hear.) The necessary consequence of the
passing of this Bill would be an enormous increase of applica-
tions for inelosures. There could be little doubt that a great
portion of the land which was fit for cultivation would be made
the subject of application to Parliament within the next two or
three years, and that, after that time, there would be very
'idle to do, and that could be doe by the paid Consmi..siot,er.
Colonel SIBTHORP was disposed to give his sanction to
the proposition of the Noble Lord. The Tithe Commissioners
had already put the country to an expense of 2.10,0e0/.
Mr. WARBURTON thought that the Noble Lord, the
Chief Commissioner of Woods arid Forests, had not given any
answer to the objections against the proposed constitution of
the Board. But he agreed with his Honourable and Learned
Friend that. as there were so many manors under the Crown,
that it would he advisable for the Commissioners to be free from
the suspicion of political influence.
Mr. HENLEY said that they were in a great. difficulty in
having two projects for the appointment of the Board to which
there were serious objections. But the measure of the Noble
Lord (Lord Lincoln) was a great improvement upon the Bill
of last yers, inasmuch as it left an appeal to that House.
Lord WORSLEY read an extract from the evidence of Mr.
Frak
Franklanti Lewis, to the effect that the Tithe Commissioners
would be the best board for carrying this Bill into effect.
evidence
LINCOLN,
of Mr. ' in
n el
Mr. ES I COUitT supported the proposition of the Noble
Lord. He thought it would be an advantage to have the paid
Commissioner a Member of the House.
L
xmp,liatLaetwi oilsiit
or es
ua dppoarntotthh:rsptaotretmioennotsf
which be had made.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the great object of this
Bill was to inspire confidence in the minds of the people. It
would fail in that Object, as the Commissioners appointed by
it were open to great objections. The political opinions of
the
other Conmi-sionets would he known to none, but
every body knew what the opinions of members of the Govern-
ment were ; anti when an inclosure should turn upon the deci-
,on of adverse rights, either their determination would be
founded upon an undue exercise of a political bias, or that de-
cision would b, attributed to that bits. Such dificulties would
arise in the decision of private rights. He was also of opinion
thatthe argument with reference to the rights of the Crown
was one of great as eight, as they ought to be provided for in
some way or other.
Lord CLIVE, agreed with what had fallen from his Noble
Friend (Lord Lincoln) with respect to the Commissiouers of
the Woods and Forests. He was of opinion that there was tot
great a prejudice existing against the Commissioners. He
thought that it would be a great advantage to have the officer
of the Government, the head of the Woods and Fore ts, con-
nected with this measure, as be would have a personal knowledge
of the busitiess, and would not come down to the House depend-
ing upon a report read the day before, which might be trans-
mitted by the robe Commissioners.
Mr. WILLIAMS said they might as well impose a tax upon
the peopl t
e o pay their deficient rents, as to make them pay
for those inelosures ,shich were about to fall into ; heir own
hands. lie offer his most aecided opposition to the
clause as it now stood:
Mr. WAKLEY said that he had already voted against going
into Committee on this Bill. There was a great feeling against
it, but he was of opinion that it would operase in favour of
the people. The great, question before the House was, whe-
ther the first Commissioner of the Woods and Forests, a paid
Commissioner and an unpaid 0 jramissioner should consti-ute
the board, or that the fith e Commissioners should consti-
tute it, Ise was in favour of the latter.—( Hear.)
It. was log
• hly objectionable that a Minister of
the Government should preside over that board;
he could carry any propo-it_ien pased, and when called on
for the explanation, he could easily shake it off his shoulders by
only an individqso
stating that he was stem er of the sorn-
b
ays bane
mittee. The poor were
lgantaee it down and crushed, in his
opinion, by tbose whose. was to oppress. probably
Lord would have no objection to postpone the Bill
the Noble Lor
after what, he had heard that night. He had no doubt that a
roconsideration of the matter would lead them to a better con-
clu-iou was embodied in
than that which the first clause.
Mr. NEWDEGATE was glad
Mernbeefor
sun port the claims of the. poor nn this question; and
Finsbury,
h Ten that tne right of
he fully agreed with
On such questions.
waif always oeerloOke
Lord EBRINGTs)N begged to remind the Hour of the
difficulty the Commissioners wouldi encounter in their efforts to
deal with commons in Cornwa, 2 many of which were Duchy
preverty!
Mr. BROTHERTON thought that the Hon. Member for
Finsbury had made out a very good case in favour of the
Bill.—('Laughter. )
Mr. C. BUL LER disclaimed ill iVention of imputing wrong
motives to the INoble Lord who
had
brought forward this mea-
sure; but he could not avoid saying that he looked with great
alarm at the Government taking up this question, for he very
much feared that the Tithe Commissioners weeld not have
finished their present
to take up the Bill,
40 thy could A'G't • g theirtake eore some time. For
these seasons, he would certainly the
sense of the House
on the amendment, as he did think the Bill ought not to put
forward, until as the Tithe
such time Commissioners could take
up the Bill,
The Earl of LINCOLN could
not see what objection could
•
be made to' the ewetinent of the r. proposed Commissioners,
becityie4 in el: cases, an application should be made to the


Secretary of State, before any step could be taken by the
Commissioners.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there
peered to be—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against —37
The c'aese was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Colonel SIBTII (./ RP said he was decidedly opposed to sash
a regiment of Commissioners as this Bill proposed to appoint.
Li.rd EBRINGTON thought the best feature in this Bill
was that it would give protection against encroachments to per-
sons who never before enjoyed such protection. ,
Clauses '2, 3, 4 and 5 were then agreed to.
On clause 6 being proposed, which provides the salary for
the Commissioners, it was proposed to fill up the blank with
1,5001.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS contended that this Bill was intended
to benefit the landowners, and them only. He, therefore, did
not think that the public ought to pay this sum.
Mr. TREL AWN EY supported the proposal of the Govern-
ment.
Mr. WAWN, in order to take the sense o f the Committee
upon this clause, moved that the blank be filled up with 1,000/.
instead of 1,500/.
The Earl of LINCOLN defended the clause as originally
proposed. The sum of 1,5` oi. could not be too much, when it
was considered the duties that would have to be performed
fur it.
Colonel SIBTHORP thought the amount was too high.
Mr. B. DENISON thought it was much better to pay a
good officer liberally than to pay an inefficient officer a smell
salary.
Lord WORSLEY opposed the amendment, at the Fame
time urging on the Government the necessity of one of the
Commissioners being a good lawyer.
Mr. WA KL F.Y thought just as good a man could he ob-
tained for 1,0001. a year as for 1,5001., and, therefore, if his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Wawn) divided on his proposition, he
sheuld support him. He wished to know what duty was the
third officer expected to perform when he was to be paid no-
thing ? No lawyer would work at that rate he was sure—
( Leughter)—but the result would be that in a few years the
Government would come down to the House and ask another
1,590/. for this other officer, and he, therefore, should, as a
precautionary measure, support the amendment.
Dr. BO WRING thought the best means was to maximise
aptitude, and to minimise expense.—(Loud laughter.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment l3
Against it
Majority against the amendment 5O
After a brief discussion between Lerd LINCOLN and Mr. B.
DENISON, clause 6 was agreed to with an altera' ion proposed
by the former, that the valuer should not have the power to
call witnesses except under the seal of the Commissioners.
Clauses 7 arid 8 were agreed to without discussion.
On clause 9 being put,
Mr. HUME said that no doubt could be entertained but that
the object of this Bill was to create the greatest possible ex-
pense with the least passible advantage. —(Laughter.) He
objected to the clause on that indisputable account, and
trusted at least it would be materially modified.
After a few words from Lord Lincoln, Lord Clive, Mr. B.
Denison, and Mr. Darby, the clause was agreed to.
Lord WORSLEY, in a few words, moved the adoption of
the following amendment to clause 10 : In clause 10, line 11,
to insert after the word ' them,' or to the valuer acting in
the matter of any inclosure under this Act ;' and in same clause,
line 20, after the word Commissionere' insert 'or valusr.' "
Lord LINCOLN said the amendment proposed by the Noble
Lord would most materially alter the condition of the Bill ; and
he certainly could not consent to it.
After some coeversation, in which Mr. HUME joined,
Lord WORSLEY withdrew his amendment.
On clause II being read,
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to' know whether Lammas and
Michaelmas land were to be included in that clause, and whether
the Noble Lord ( Lincoln) would have any objection to insert
that description of lend?
Lord LINCOLN said that land was already included in the
Act. and it was not his intention to exclude any sort of land.
The Lammas fields would all be included in the 12th clause.
Mr. WILLIAMS remarked that it eon's' be better for these
lands to be dealt with without the interference of these Corn-
missioners, and inquired if the Commissioners had the power
to inclose these lanes ?
Lord LINCOLN replied, that no inclosure of lands would
take place without the sanction of Parliament specially con-
firming the Commissioners' report.
Mr. C. BULLER said it had been stated that there
never would be under this Act any ince sure of land, without
a special Act of Parliament, but he would inquire why, if in
the 12th clause this proviso was inserted, it should not be
also included in the 11th clause. He :anted to know what
there was in this clause to exempt it from the general tenor
of the Act.
Lord LINCOLN said, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
(Mr. Buller) did not understand the clause. The Act of the
6th and 7th of William the Fourth, allowed the de-
scription of lands mentioned in the 11 th clause, to be
inclosed by a private Bill. and it was most desirable
the same power should be continued to these lands.
They now came to common lands, which could not be inclosed
without special Acts. The Commissioners would be somewhat
analogous in function to the Board of Trade, and could only re-
commend the course that should be taken on any particular
Bill. It would rest with the Government to confirm or reject.
He had new, he thought, gone through the leading features of
the matter under consideration.
Mr. C. BULL ER said that, according to the 12th clause, no
waste land could be inclosed without an Act of Parliament.
Mr. HENLEY objected to the clauses as being vague, and
imperfect in the sense it was intended they should convey.
Lord LINCOLN sail, that with regard to the subject under
discusssion, no land could be inclosed without an Act of Par-
liament. 'I hat he considered to he quite sufficient.
After a few further remarks from several Hon. Members,
clauses 11 and 12 were agreed to.
Clause 13 was then proposed.
An HON. Memeen objected to the clause. The inclosing
of all the commons of the country would prevent the fairs and
markets being held in many instances, as in many towns they
were held on those commons that were proposed to be inclosed.
Mr. S. WORTLEY asked Hon. Gentlemen to look at the
27th clause. By that clause the Commissioners were called
upon to have regard to the convenience of towns, and
villages, and he thought that the instructions the clause
were sufficient to preserve the object.
Mr. HUME said, that by the I Ith clause an unlimited
power was given to inclose laud: without any limit ; and he
wished the term village green to be defined. What were one,
or even two acres for the recreation of a village? He had no
confidence whatever in country gentlemen.
Lord CLIVE thought that, taking this clause in connexion
wth the 12th, sufficient care had been taken to secure the
ground for recrevion to every village.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that be trusted the Noble Earl
would have no objection to extend the operation of the clause
to 15 miles instead of 10, where the towns had 30,000 inha-
bitants, and three or four miles from other towns.
The Earl of LINCOLN explained that even if this clause
were left out altogether, there would still be sufficient security
for the rights of the poor.
Mr. WAKLEY said that it should be remembered that in
many places there were patches of land not immediately con-
nected with the common grounds, and he thought these ought
to be secured against the operation of this Act.
The Earl of LINCOLN opposed the alterations on the
ground of the great difficulty that would be occasioned in set-
tling the rights of the commonalty on the extent of these
patches, and he must say the idea was absurd.
Mr. STEUART WORTLEY thought that his Noble
Friend had taken a very proper course in resisting the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury.
S r W5l. JOLLIFFE said the Bill would prove more satis-
factory if the alteration were acceded to.
After some further discussion, the alteration was negatived
without a division.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 14 being put,
Mr. BOUVERIE and Sir WILLIAM JoLteerz urged some
objections, which were not however persisted in, and the
clause was agreed to.
Clauses 15, 16, 17, and 18 were also agreed to.
Clauses up to '23 inclusive were then agreed to.
On clause 24 being proposed,
Lord WORSLEY moved as an amendment that before the
word " such," the words" such directions as to the appointment
of, and instructions to, a valuer as the Commissioners may deem
fit, and also," should be inserted.
After a few words from Mr. BOUVERIE,
The clause was allowed to stand part of the Bill.
On clause 25 being put,
Lord WORSLEY moved an amendment, that the clause be
struck out, and a clause inserted providing that a meeting be
appointed to consider the expediency of the inclosure, by those
persons who were interested in the.land, and also making pro-
vision for the appointment of valuers by the Commissioners.
Lord 'LINCOLN said that he thought it impossible to agree
to any one of the amendments of his Noble Friend (Lord
Worsley) without admitting them all. He must therefore
oppose them.
After some further discussion the clause was agreed to.
- Clause 26 was also agreed to.
On the reading of clause 27,
Mr. HAWES said ,hat there was a great defect in the clause
not giving to the persons most interested a power to say
whether the inclosure should take place or not.
The 27th clause was agreed to. •
On the reading of clause 28,
Lord WORSLEY moved that in lines 14 and 15 the words
"provisional order" should be omitted, and the words "draft
award" be inserted.
The Earl of LINCOLN opposed the amendment.
On the proposal of the 29th clause,
Colonel SIBTHORP moved that it should be omitted.
After a short discussion, in which Mr. Charles Buller, Lord
Worsley, and Mr. Henley took part,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it
Alajerity for the clause.—

-22

Upon the next clause being read,
Lord WORSLEY made a few observations; to which
The Earl of LINC..LN said it would be absurd to have no
clause compelling parties to comply with the orders of the Corr-
mis‘ioners in certain cas, s.
Lord EBRINGTON said he conceived it would be equally
absurd not to limit the power of the Commissioners in some
degree,
The Earl of LINCOLN said, if the Noble Lord had read
the Bid, he would see that there was a clause to that effect.
After a few words from Mr. S. CRAWFORD and Lord J.
MANNERS,
The Earl of LINCOLN said he conceived the suggestion of
the Hon. Member for Hertford so useful, that he would adopt it.
The clause as amended was then agreed to.
Clause 32 WAS also agreed to without discussion, and the
Chairman-reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on
Monday next.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS' (SOUTH WALES) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be
reported on Tuesday next.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The further consideration of this Bill was postponed till
Monday.
Upon the motion that the House do go into Committee on
the Constabulary (Ireland) Bill,
Lord CLEMENTS said there was a great defect in the
present law, which compelled inhabitants of a peaceable dis-
trict to pay for constabulary for repressing disturbances in
another. A few Orangemen were the cause of serious dis-
turbances in Leitrim, for which peaceable and well-disposed
Catholics and Protestants suffered by taxatioa.
Sir T. FREMANTLE said that the observation of the
Nobly Lord was not now applicable, but the Government would
take it into their serious consideration. When the Consta-
bulary Bill was brought under the notice of the House, the
proposition would be made in accordance with the subject.
The Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be
brought up on Monday next.
FOREIGN LOTTERIES BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Small Debts Bill, and the Lunatic Asylums Committee,
were postponed until Monday.
DEODANDS. •
Mr.,6n dIOUVERIE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to abolish
deo
The Bill was subsequently read a first time.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES (IRELAND).
Mr. T. B. SMITH obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
facilitating the winding up the affairs of joint-stock companies

in Ireland, who were unable to meet theit pecuniary arrange-
ments. The Bill was read a first lime.

The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at ten minutes t.) Two o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
TIULTISDAT. JULY 3.
Standing Orders COMITIi nee —Hesolutions reported ;
1. " That. in the.case of the South \Vales Railway peti-
tion for additional provision, the tanding orders ought not
to be dispensed with."
2. "That, in the case of the 3forden College Estate Bill,
the star.ding orders ought to. be dispensed with :—That
the parties be permitted to pFoCeed with their Bill."
Second resolution agreed t0.7--Repurt to lie on the table.
The Lords' amendments to the following Bills were
agreed to :-,
Newcastle and Darlington ( Brandling Junction) Railway.
Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway.
Bridgwater Navigation and Railway.
Waterford and Kilkenny Railway.
Southampton and Dorchester Railway.

NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL OFFICE.
St. Helen's Railway and Canal,—Third reading, Monday,
July 7.
Aberdare Railway,—Third reading, Monday, July 7.
Epping Ri:llwAy (Group NN.),—Conunittee on Bill, ad-
journed till Tuesday, July 8, at twelve.

PRIVATE BUSINESS FOR FRIDAY, JULY 4.
RAILWAYS.
REPORTS.
Direct London and Portsmcuth.
Brighton and Chichester (Portsmouth Extension).
Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth.