The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONPON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH s, 1A44,

those feelings of reciprocity which seemed to be anticipated.
It had been said that it would tend to increase the trade and
commerce of the country. Such high and heavy duties had
been placed upon many articles of our manufactures by the
I3rzzilian autbdrities as acted completely as protective
duties. As much as 60 per cent. had been announced
on some articles, and this would be most surely
a light protective duty on those goods, but the
Brazilian Government had taken care not to pledge them-
selves to abide by this high rate. Such were the protec-
tive views of the Brazils, and even if her Majesty's Govern-
ment were prepared to set aside every considsi ation of slavery,
it would be perfectly hopeless to adopt the system suggested ;
and that it would, in a commercial point of view, be injurious
to this country. There was another point alluded to by the
Right Hon. Gentleman. He had spoken to the liberal manner
in which Brazil was treated, in a trading point of view, by
other countries, and more particularly by America. Now he
(Mr. Gladstone) could not concur in the view of the case taken
by that Right Hon. Gentleman. He could not admit that
anything which had been done by the English Government
was a ground of complaint, on the part of the Brazilians, either
as regarded sugar or coffee. With respect to Germany, it was
an error to say that the Zollverein was favourable to the free
importation of sugar. On the contrary, the duties upon sugar
imported into Germany had been increased.—( Hear.) In the
case of France there was a great difficulty—there were two
difficulties. France had to protect the home production of
sugar from the beet-root against the colonial sugar, and protect
the colonial sugar against the competitio❑ of foreigners.—
( Hear, hear.) The duty fluctuated from 35 to 65 francs.
The trade of France with Brazil was upon as unfavourable a
footing as that of Brazil with England. The commerce of
Brazil depended altogether upon British trade, and was carried
on almost exclusively by British capital. Whilst he disap-
proved of the protective duties, he thought that this justice
ought to be done to her Majesty's Government, that whilst
they did .not attempt to interfere with the Brazilian Go-
vernment in the management of their own financial affairs,
they had not neglected the interests of this country when they
could legitimately promote them.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the House was not prepared to support a motion which
had regard merely to commercial advantages, but that they
would look more liberally to the interests of mankind.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that this question had not been fairly
met. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had shown that
the trade with Brazil was of great importance to this country.
It was complained of the Brazilians that they put a duty upon
British colonial sugar. But it was not stated that we put
on a duty of three hundred per cent. upon foreign
sugar.—(Hear, and cheers.) The fault was much more
with us than with them. The Brazilians had declared that
they would admit the productions of all countries upon equal
terms. We heard a great deal about slavery and the slave
trade., A Noble Lord opposite had taunted his colleagues with
being thimble-riggers—( Hear, and laughter)—but the rig that
was practised by the present Government partook much more
than anything done by their predecessors of the character of
thimble-rigging. They talked one day of slavery, and the
next the slave trade, until it became difficult to know under
what thimble the pea was. He said the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the First Lord of the Treasury spoke of putting down
slavery in the Brazils. Was he aware of any power in Brazil
to put it down? If he was not aware of such a power, he was
misleading the public and the House by professing to have
the intention of putting down slavery in South America.
But, did not every reasonable man in that House, and in the
country, know perfectly well that it was not slavery and the
slave-trade that prevented Hon. Gentlemen opposite from
equalising the duties on foreign and colonial sugar? There
was not a man, woman, or child that gave them credit for any
such motive. Why, who were they that talked so authorita-
tively, and in such deprecating terms, of slavery ? It was but
the other day when they thnmselves were slave-owners—when
they stood by slavery as firmly and as fast as they did by
colonial sugar row. Their'real object was seen through.
Their object, from the first, was monopoly, and monopoly
was their object now. If they meant to prohibit foreign
sugar altogether, why did they not do so openly? and, above
all, ashy delude them with the idea that the time might come
when these differential duties could be equalised ? If the time
was really to come with them, what better time could there be
than the present? But the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Gladstone) went the length, plainly and openly, of saying that
we must protect our own colonies. Protect out of their own
means, if they liked ; but he (Mr. Gibson) protested against
protecting the colonies at the expense of the industrious
consumers and ever-toiling manufacturers of this country.—
( Hear, hear.) Now, he would ask that Right Hon. Gentle-
man, who, he believed, was himself a West Indian proprietor
—he would ask him, if he went to Manchester to buy a balo
of goods, would he like to give more for that bale of goods
than a Brazilian?
Mr. GLADSTONE—No.

once asserted that he (Lord Sandon) had been elected
by venal freemen. lie hoped that this would be the last
time such assertions would be made by Hon. Members in that
House. The Hon. Member for Manchester hod said that he
(Lord Sandon) was not the representative of the mercantile
interests of Liverpool. He ( Lord Sandon) thought he might
appeal to the addressee that had been presented to him on
that subject, in order to refute the assertion. lle thought the
Hon. Gentleman had been compelled to the adoption of the
course he had pursued, in consequence of the impossibility
of answering the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade. A speech more exhausting the
subject he had never heard.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman had said that the manufacturers of Manchester had
stated that they looked to an alteration in the sugar duties in
order to open the markets of the world to this country. He
thought that when the subject was well considered it would be
thought by the manufacturers of Manchester not to be a boon
worth scrambling for. The Hon. Gentleman had chal-
lenged him to go down to Liverpool and advocate the
principles which he supported in that House. He should
have no hesitation in doing so, feeling convinced that the
course of conduct he had adopted would raeet with the appro-
bation of his constituents. Ho did not believe as had been
asserted that the people of England had changed their opi-
nions upon the question of slavery and the slave trade. The
Members of that House might have changed their opinions
upon the subject but the people had not. If they appealed to
the people they would find that they would not sacrifice every
principle of justice to pounds, shillings, and pence. It was
asserted that the course the Ministersf were pursuing was cal-
culated to increase the price of that essential article of life—
sugar. Now, what was the fact? Why, ever since the
debate that was raised by the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London, the price of sugar had been continually
falling. There was no doubt that the market of Brazil was a
very great and important one, but he was sure that when
the Government of Brazil imposed duties on cotton
and other manufactures of this country, the manufac-
turers of Manchester would not be so eager to cultivate
relations of amity with the people of Brazil. With
respect to the estimate he had given of the quantity of
sugar that would be supplied from the colonies, he never in-
tended to calculate exactly. No man could do that. But
he was justified in what he had asserted by the fact, that the
price of sugar had been felling ever since. He contended
that for supplying the labour market of the West Indies, the
choice lay between the immigration into those islands of free
white labourers, or the negroes from Africa. A great impedi-
ment in the way of the supply of sugar was, the continual dis-
cussion of this question, which produced a feeling of uncer-
tainty. He repeated that he believed the honest abhorrence
the people had for slavery was not at all diminished, and con-
cluded by declaring that he could have no fear of being charged
by his constituents with either hypocrisy or neglect of the com-
mercial interests of the country.
Mr. BRIGHT rose, and said, from the speeches he had
heard that night from the Right Hon. the President of the
Board of Trade, and from the Noble Lord who had just sat
down, he should have thought that gentlemen on that side of
the House were specially interested either in the condition of
the population of some portions of Africa, or in the affairs •f
the Brazilian empire. He should not have been aware, from
any speech on that side of the House, that they were engaged
in any discussion on the real merits of the operation of the
question on the great body of the consumers of this country.—
( Hear, hear.) Nothing was more politic in a case so despe-
rately bad as this, than that lion. Gentlemen should try to
ride off on some other scent—( Hear, hear)—and the largest
portioh of the speech of the Right Hon. President of the Board
of Trade, who was a Member of the Cabinet, was spent in dis-
cussing the slavery view of the question, although it was notorious
that he was himself one of a family which, perhaps more than any
other, was in former times implicated in all that was most dise
graceful in the system of slavery.—( Cries of " Oh, oh" from the
Ministerial benches.) He meant not to make any charge as to
particular acts.—(oll, oh, and cheers.) He spoke only of
slavery as a system.—( Oh, oh.) He did not believe that those
connected with the Right Hon. Gentleman ever did anything
but what every man who kept slaves was necessitated to do.—
(Cheers and Oh, oh.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman was
now also a member of the Cabinet, supported by a party
who were the special supporters,_ in that House and the
country, of slavery and the slave trade, as long as the
people of this country permitted them to exist at all.—
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool had
spoken of the strong opinion of his constituents on this ques-
tion. While the Hon. Member for Manchester was speaking
he saw the Hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. Borthwick) sit-
ting by the side of the Noble Lord. He recollected the time
when that Hon. Gentleman was in Liverpool lecturing in fa-
vour of slavery, and the only party by whom that Hon. Gen-
tleman was supported in delivering his lectures in favour of
slavery, was the very party that returned the Noble Lord to
this House. He had asserted elsewhere, and he was prepared to
repeat it here, that their plea of an abhorrence of slavery,
coming from that side of the House, was a dishonest plea. It
was a plea that was made to seize hold of certain opinions
which once did exist, and which were now supposed to exist, but
which was never used so long as they had any other on which
they could hang their support of this question. But it was a
plea that would avail them no longer. He knew that the Anti-
Slavery Society did send some representations to the Govern-
ment against the proposal to reduce the duty on foreign
sugar. But lie knew, also, that in that represen-
tation it was not supported by the Anti-Slavery Societies
in the provinces—( Hear, hear)—and it was in the provinces
that the real strength of the Society existed.---( Hear, hear.)
The Societies in Glasgow, in Manchester, in Liverpool, in
Birmingham, at Hitchin, at Devizes, and in several other
places, had seceded from the Anti• Slavery Society on that
very ground. They dissented with it on this question, and
the Society, from that fatal error, had fallen into a state of
f
complete helplessness. He knew this from experience, and
, and he had as good a
rrigomht
intfoormsapteioakn heonhad collthepeocitnetd
as
any
man,
for he
had visited every borough in England within the
last twelve or eighteen months.—(oh, oh, and ironical
cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The anti-slavery cry,
raised with respect to the question of free trade, or the sugar
question, would not hinder the return of any Member of Par-
liament who might come forward as a free trade candidate.
( Hear, hear.) But he should like to ask Hon. Gentlemen op
posite why they raised this question of national morality ?
Was it their duty to look after the morality of Brazil? Was it
not their duty to look after the prosperity of their
own country ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they sent to
Parliament that they might take under their specie
patronage, every population of every portion of the earth, ex-
cept that of the country in which they themselves lived?
(Cheers. ) He declared he could not express the disgust and
amazement—(oh oh!)—with which he had listened to the
speeches of the gentlemen opposite, in which they had spoken
of the people of Africa, of Brazil, of every people of the world,
except their own poor, except the famishing population of their
own manufacturing districts.—( Cheers.) Who was it that en-
tertained these scruples about the introduction of Brazilian
sugar ? It was not the poor, it was the rich only-4 Hear )
and they could have enough at whatever price it might
come in—(Cheers)—or, if there was only a supply of
, 4,000,000 cwts., with an increase of several millions of the
population_, it mattered nothing to Noble Lords in another
place, to Hon. Members in this, to rich merchants, or bankers,
or the clergy ; all these classes would be served out of this
short supply before the poor of the population could come in
for their share. If the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool,
and the President of the Bowel of (Trade, had scruples
on this matter, how had they any right, by reason
of their conscientious scruples, to deny to five-sixths
of the working classes of this country that supply of sugar,
which their own industry might purchase them, if it were not
for this infamous law and system which they upheld.—(Cheers.)
If any man had any scruples on the matter, he ought not to
consume slave-grown sugar. Let there be freedom of con-
science on the question ; but let them not seek to impose
shackles on the conscience of other men, especially of men who
were not represented in that House, and who were the
weakest and most defenceless of the people, and
who, under the most ordinary circumstances, never
got more than the commonest necessaries of life.—(Cheers.)
Treaties had been spoken of between this country and Brazil ;
suppose Brazil would allow their goods to come in without any
duties at all, what effect would that have on the sugar question?
They had had already almost an open market in Brazil—the
Brazilians had done everything they could for them in ad-
mitting their goods at duties of la and 18 per cent. ; they
had no reason to complain of them. Yet they found
that their trade with Brazil had, for many years, been
diminishing. The good of the present treaty they
had deprived the country of, by sacrificing their country to a
class and selfish monopoly interest ; and whatever treaty they
might make in future, unless they chose to lower the duties on
the sugar of Brazil, however advantageous it might seem upon
paper, the trade must be greatly crippled, and all who de-
pended on it must greatly suffer. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man alluded to the fact that the East Indies and the Mauritius
would not long, and did not then, greatly require protection,
but that the West Indies did require it, because labour was scarce,
and dear because of its scarcity. Why, the planters themselves
were themselves to blame for any scarcity of labour in the
West Indies. They were told that the climate of Jamaica
was favourable to the negro population, yet for many years it
did not increase but diminish ; and had the emancipatian been
delayed fifteen years longer, such was the brutality and
treatment of the slaves by the planter that the negro population
would have been utterly exterminated. Ho thought this was
about the worst plea that could possibly be offered
by the West Indian planters in defence of the sys-
tem by which the people must be robbed and spoiled of not less
than four or five millions annually, to support the monopoly in
which these planters had so direct an interest. But the ques-
tion with regard to the consumers in this country was, that
there was not enough sugar for their supply, He had heard no
remedy proposed for this; the people were ill supplied • the
consumption of Ireland was a trifle—that of the agricultural
counties of England scarcely worth alluding to—and all that
was consumed in the country was well known to be deterio-
rated to a serious extent.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Every-
thing was striving to baffle the system they had built' up.
There was no increase in the quantity of the sugar ; there was
an increase in all the dealers in it, and a decrease in the profits
they made ; some sold the article without any profit at all, and
in some places the grocers would not sell sugar to families
unless they purchased other articles from which a profit could
be made. The object of the sugar monopoly was precisely
the same as that of corn. It was to benefit the proprietors of
the West Indian isles, in the same manner as the corn-
law was meant to benefit the proprietors of
land in England. The gentlemen opposite knew
this as well as he did. No man knew it better than the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, unless it was the
Right Hon. Baronet who sat on his right hand—( Hear, hear)
—who propounded those principles years ago—(Cheers)—and
who, perhaps, taught him (Mr. Bright) the first lessons he
ever received in political economy.—(Laughter and cheers,
during which Sir J. Graham bowed to the Hon. Member in
acknowledgment of the reference.) The country, too, knew
that they supported a selfish interest, and however much
they might have deluded the people in time past,
there was now intelligence enough in the country
to put an end to this and every other monopoly, by which
they might fancy they profited.—(Oh, oh, and indications of
impatience.) He knew how difficult it was to convince any of
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite of the impoliey of the monopo-
lies either of sugar or corn. The Right Hon. Baronet, in his
speech on the Irish debate—(Question, question)—spoke of a
man, charged with riding over a piece of land while hunting,
being tried by a jury of fox-hunters. He was just in that con-
dition. They had galloped over his interests—(Oh, oh)
—they had trampled over the interests of 500 or 600 men
whom lie employed in that trade, that greatly depended
on the Brazilian trade ; they had disregarded the vital inte-
rests of several hundreds of working men, by whose suffrages
he was permitted to speak in that House. He was here on his
own account and on theirs, to plead before a jury—not of fox-
hunters, but monopolists, and he was endeavouring to show
that his constituents were wronged by the system they sup-
ported. Who had denied it? The President of the Board of
Trade did not a say a word about it - he knew a great
deal better. The Right Honourable Baronet at the
head of the Government proficient as he was in
the art must have envied his President of the
Board of Tiede the powers he possessed. He had never heard
so many words put together with so much smoothness, and so
entirely avoiding the question under discussion. And when
the Right Hon. Baronet got up himself, he would venture to
say that he would as studiously evade the question as he had
done. Why was it? Why had any class, eitheir in that coun-
' try or in the colonies, the right, or why did they assert the
power, to prevent the larger portion of the population of
this country from having that supply of sugar
which their industry might purchase for them?
Now he asked some Hon. Gentleman on the opposite side to
tell them that. It was all very well ter 11911, Gentlemen

' opposite to taunt those who had been once in office with what
they had not done when they had great difficulties to contend
with ; but it was no reason to give to the country for any line
of conduct, that Whig Ministers were as bad as they were.
They were returned to that House for a different purpose—for
the purpose of discussing and settling those great national
vestions upon the broad principles of justice, without
any regard to self-interest. Their monopolies all hung toge-
ther—it was the same with corn, with sugar, and with timber.
—( Ironical cheers from Col. Sibthorp. ) He believed the II in.
Member for Lincoln hail given that expression of dissent.
Now he (Mr. Bright) had met in the county of Lincoln a
person who objected to the repeal of the corn-laws, and he asked
him if the Ministry repealed the corn-laws what would
he have done with the sugar-laws? His answer was,
repeal them, of course ; and he ( Nlr. Bright) would
ask a planter on the other side of the House, who was only
a sugar planter, what would he have done with the cern-laws if
the sugar monopoly were done away with ? Why, he would
beco.ne a Leaguer at once—he cared not one straw for any
monopoly, but that by which he profited. Therefore, it was
he (Mr. Bright) charged them all as monopolists in sugar as
well as in timber. He charged them with not fulfilling their
duty to their constituents in thus regarding the interests of
classes only in opposition to the well-known interests of the
great body of their constituents and of their countrymen.
What was the condition of those people whose interests suffered
by the sacrifice of the Brazilian trade ? Had they so soon for-
gotten that, two years age, 100,000 men had come out of
Lancashire, and asked the ruling powers what they meant to
do for them ? They had in those districts of Lanca-
shire and Yorkshire the most industrious population on the
face of the earth. He lived amongst them, and he knew
them well, and he knew that from their industry the rents of
Hon. Gentlemen were gathered, and that it was the profits of
their trade which enabled the country to carry on the late long
and sanguinary wars. He knew that the agriculture of this
country never yet maintained the prosperity of the country.
However, they disregarded the interests of those manufacturing
districts; and then they lately had their long discussion upon the
state of Ireland, with its two millions and a quarter of paupers.
—( Cries of " Question.") Should they not, while the popu-
lation was in such a state, extend the trade of the country, so
as to correspond with the extension of the population ?—(Cries
of " Question.") It was to the question to refer to one por-
tion of the empire which they would gladly forget, but that
circumstances would not allow them. In that country, then, a
population—upwards of two millions—more numerous than the
population of this vast metropolis, were in a starving con-
dition.—( Question.) He could make great allowance, from the
occupations in which Hon. Gentemer, opposite had engaged during
the recess, for their unwillingness to grapple with this question.
But there was a trade which employed a vast number of the
people of Lancashire and the people of Ireland, who, driven
from their homes by the brutality of the landlords, came to
Lancashire by hundreds and thousands. He had at the present
moment many families of those poor people in his employment,
who could give horrible and appalling accounts of the circum-
stances under which they were driven from their native coun-
try. Well, then, they had upwards of two millions of paupers
in Ireland, more than a million in England and Wales, and an
enormous mass of pauperism in Scotland, with wages in the
agricultural districts of that country of not more than 6s. per
week ; and even in some of the English counties the wages
were as low as 6s. per week.—(Cries of " No.") Let the
Hon. Member for Dorsetshire get up and quote from the pam-
phlet of the Rev. Godolphine Osborne. He had the
title of Honourable before his name, and he (Mr. Bright)
therefore supposed he was connected with the aristocracy.
'e!e had also the title of reverend, and therefore, he presumed,
belonged to an establishment which was not particularly de-
mocratic in its tendency—yet that writer gave a more appalling
description of the state of the people in that country than any
member of the Anti-Corn-Law League had yet ventured to
give.—( Cries of " Question.") What didethe country papers
tell them? Ought they not to take some steps to
ascertain the cause of the deep.scated discontent
of the agricultural counties ?—the cause of those
outrages upon property which were, to a certain extent, com-
mitted upon farms, in some of the counties where they were
obliged to keep private watchmen.—(No, no.) Why, it was so.
Let them read the accounts of the incendiary fiires recorded
in the newspapers. It was for the Legislature, in such a state
of things, to consider whether their only concern in dealing
with this question was, whether the West Indian planter
should have fifteen shillings per cwt. less, or not, on
sugar. It was their business to see if any remedy
could be devised for the present state of matters, and if they
could devise such remedy to apply it at once. That was their
duty if they claimed to be statesmen. If a remedy lay within
the Constitution it was their duty to apply that remedy. He
had risen to exp'ain his views and to state his intention of sup-
porting the motion of the lion. Gentleman. Though there
might be a majority against that motion, and Ministers might
thereby obtain a party triumph, they were not therefore re-
moved from the terrible, the awful, and the ever-accumulating
responsibility of doing their duty, and spurning the domination
of the monpolist part y.—( Cheers. )
Mr. F. T. BARING said that the Noble Lord (Lord San-
don) who spoke last on the other side, had addressed himself
a good deal to a proposition made by him (Mr. Baring) when
he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, rather than to the real
snbject under discussion. What that proposition was, he (Mr.
Baring) would net then trouble the House with repeating.
At the time it had been proposed, it was upon the considera-
tion of revenue that it had been advanced. He had been told,
both now and then, that that proposition would be ineffective.
All he could say was, that if it were ineffective, they had now
moans, which they had not then, of giving a reduction, which
the state of the finances would not permit. If it was denied
that it would give relief, let it not stand in their way at the pre-
sent moment. They were open to consider any more effective pro-
position than he had been able to lay before the House.
There was, however, one point which the House must permit
him to re-state to them. It had been used as a taunt against
the Members of the late Government that they had changed
their opinions upon the question of protecting colonial sugar.
Ile reminded them that when the duties were renewed it was
announced to be a renewal for one year, and if any Hon. Mem-
ber who was present at the interview of West India pro-
prietors with the Government on that occasion had any remem-
brance of the matter, he would admit that it was so stated at
the time, and moreover that it excited considerable dissatisface
tion, as though they designed to lower the duty, though they
did not state so. The speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the President of the Board of Trade on the subject had been
made with his usual ability and clearness, but in nothing had
he shone to such advantage as in avoiding irritating
topics. But then one part of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman's speech would be looked at with
anything but satisfaction—he meant his narration relative to
the negotiation, because it left the case of further negotiation
hopeless. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated the propositions
that were made, on the part of the Government of Brazil,
which he said it was impossible for the Government of this
country to accept. But that left upon him (Mr. Baring) the
impression that they had put off to too late a time their dealing
with that country. If they had, some years ago, dealt more
liberally with the staple articles of that country, sugar and
coffee, they would have raised a better feeling towards them
on the part of the Government of that country.—( Hear,
hear.) He heard, with sincere regret, that the Government
of Brazil were about to take the course of protection.
He was not inclined to speak against what had been stated
by the Right. Hon. Gentleman, or to overrate their trade
with Brazil. Bat whatever that trade was, it was of such a
nature that, in the present state of the manufacturing popula-
tion, it ought not to be neglected. He confessed he thought
there were no two countries so admirably adapted by nature
for commercial intercourse, as this country and Brazil. But
the opportunity of improving that intercourse had been ne-
glected, and they now came, at a late hour, to remedy that
neglect. He had looked with some interest at the estimates
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the last three years.
In the years 1841 and 1842, he estimated that the quantity
of sugar to be imported would be 1,160,000 cwts. ; in making
that estimate, the Right Hon. Gentleman had made a mis-
take. He promised a supply which was short of the demand
by the amount for three months consumption. He would
not enter into the estimate for last year, because there seemed to
be some confusion in the Right. Hon. Gentleman's speech. He
(Mr. Baring) was not certain whether the estimate stated the
stock in hand, or the stock expected; however on the esti-
mate for the three years there was a deficiency of half a
year's consumption, as compared with the amount really con-
sumed. Now he asked any impartial man who looked at these
figures, to state if he was not satisfied that the consumption
was stinted by the smallness of the supply ? Taking the
average of the last five years, it appeared that the quantity
introduced into the country excreded the actual consumption
only by the consumption of two days, showing that as
consumption followed so closely on the heels of supply,
it must have been stinted by the smallness of it.
Would any one tell him, looking at the habits of the people
of this country and of Ireland, that if there had been a free and
open supply, there would not have been a much greater con-
sumption of sugar ? If Mr. Huskisson, when we brought for-
ward his sugar duties, told them that there was a large class
of their poorer fellow subjects who did not use sugar at all,
why was it that tea and coffee were new consumed to a much
greater extent than formerly, while the consumption of sugar
had not increased in the same proportion ?—( Hear, hear.)
His Right Hon. Friend had stated truly, that since 1831 th
consumption of tea and coffee had increased about 33 per cent.
—( Hear.) Let him illustrate his position by the case of to-
bacco. They all knew that great complaints were made of the
smuggling of tobacco as well as of its adulteration, and there-
fore he could not perhaps take a more unfavourable case. Not-
withstanding this, however, the consumption of tobacco had
increased since 1831 17 per cent. The increase in the con-
sumption of sugar was only 7 per cent —( Hear, hear.)
Now a good deal of argument had been used with refer-
ence to the question of slavery. He would ask Hon. Gentle-
men opposite whether, upon the grounds they had taken, it was
possible to defend all the anomalies which spread through
their systems. He contended that it was impossible to carry
out fairly and frankly the principles which they had laid down
with regard to slavery and sugar. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had been reminded of the case of cotton, but he drew a
distinction with respect to that article. Why, with the Right
Hon. Gentleman's talent for drawing distinctions, he would not
be surprised if he were able to show a distinction between the
sugar of Brazil and the sugar of America.—(Laughter.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had been questioned also with respect
to coffee. Would he tell him (Mr. Baring) that no Cuba
coffee ever came into this country ? In fact, it was
impossible to apply the principle. Whether foreign
oountries, looking at the course which they pursued with
respect to other articles, would be entirely persuaded of
their perfect honesty and good faith with reference to sugar,
was a question which he confessed he should have great diffi-
culty in solving; knowing, as he did, that almost every fo-
reign country looked on this declaration with regard to sugar
as mere empty profession. He now came more immediately
to the question of slavery. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
put that question very fairly. He said it was not slavery
which he contemplated. Why, if it were, it would be im-
possible to deal with any article that came from Ame-
rica. Nor was this ' the only difficulty. Almost the
only treaty which the Right Honourable Gentleman had
framed was a treaty with the Government of Russia ;
and though no one could talk of slavery in Russia, as the word
was generally understood, vet that modified slavery which pre-
vailed in the system of serfs- would present a formidable diffi•
culty ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman must remonstrate with
the Czar of Russia, and beg that his Imperial Majesty would
issue better regulations for the treatment of his subjects.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Right Honourable Gentle-
man objected to slavery in the Brazils, because it en-
couraged the slave trade, and because the only means of
getting rid of of the slave trade \t as by abolishing slavery in
that country. The Right Hon. Gentleman said last year that
he would consent to the admission of Brazilian sugar on condi-
tion that immediate measures should be introduced by the
Brazilian Government to ameliorate the state of the slave,
with the ultimate view of abolishing slavery. Now he (Mr.
Baring) slid not look with the slightest feelings of disre-
spect on the strong feeling which was exhibited in
this country on the subject of slavery.—( Hear,
hear.) He believed it to
,be ;the duty of every
man to do his best to get rid of that scourge of
the human race; but he would ask whether any conditions
which they might impose on Brazil were likely to produce the
slightest effect ? How could they carry it out ? The whole
argument rested upon this. The Right Hon. Gentleman ad-
mitted that there was no deficiency in the formal words of the
existing treaties. And he stated that if the treaties were car-
ried into effect the slave-trade would be abolished to-morrow.
Why was not this done ? Because the slave-trade was patro-
nised and encouraged by the noble and provincial authori-
ties of Brazil ; and because every person in authority
who set himself honestly to get rid of the slave-trade
was dismissed from his office. Would they leave it then to the
Praziliark Government to carry into erect in the interior of the

Mr. M. GIBSON--Very well. Then why should the Man-
chester manufacturer be called upon to give to the West India
manufacturer, or producer of sugar, half as much more for his
hogshead of sugar than he would have to give the Brazilian
producer ? But, he asked, did protection do the West India
colonies any good? Had it ever done them any good? The
West India planters pretended they were in great distress, and
so he (Mr. Gibson) contended they ever would be whilst they
relied upon protection. They said that the emancipation of
the slaves had greatly distressed them, and that from that period
and that circumstance they were not able to get a proper
supply of labour. Now, he (Mr. Gibson) believed it was ge-
nerally understood, that with regard to that branch of the slave
subject the question was settled. That emancipation was paid
for, and that the account was closed.--( Hear, hear.) And he
believed, too, it was so closed that they could not
open it again. The matter was thoroughly looked
into, well weighed, fully discussed—a balance of twenty
millions was struck against the country ; the country paid the
twenty millions, and he repeated, that account could never
again be opened.—( Hear, hear.) How long, however, did
they propose to maintain these duties? Would twenty years
satisfy them, or thirty years, or forty years—would eternity
itself satisfy them ? No—it would not. So long as they had
the pow er—( Hear, hear)—so long as they could maintain
them, no excuse would be wanting. That they would be ever
ready with, on the other side of the House.—( Hear, hear. )
But they had another excuse—systems could not be easily
altered. Why the bad legislation of former days was no war-
rant for them to do wrong to the manufacturers of this country
now. It was no answer to their just complaints and remon.
strances, to say there was bad legislation in former times.
They asked that House what they had done, that their rights,
their capital, and their industry should be sacrificed as they
were now sacrificed? What crime had they committed—what
wrong done—that they should be treated in this way ? This
was essentially a question of justice ; but in that House they
seemed to take it for granted that persons were to make mighty
sacrifices at the shrine of monopoly, and to forego the fair and
just reward of their own industry, that those who toiled not
should live in luxury and sloth.—(Hear, hear.) Let it be
recollected that at the period when these laws were passed, the
people were not represented in that House—it was a mere
boroughmongering House, and all the laws passed by it were
passed by a particular class, in favour of a particular class. And
it was no answer to the industrious people of this country, who
had committed no crime, and done no wrong—it was no an-
swer—at least no proper answer—to their murmurs to say that,
because a great blunder and a great injustice had been com-
mitted by the Legislature years ago, they must be its con-
tented victims now. There was no better time for remedying
this injustice than the present, as was proved by the petition he
had, in the earlier part of the evening, presented to that House,
from the Chamber of Commerce at Manchester. This pe-
tition distinctly stated that the manufacturers and mer-
chants of the country had been compelled greatly to di-
minish their exports to Brazil, because they could not
get a fair return, on account of the differential duties on sugar
and coffee. Hitherto Brazil had put a duty of fifteen per
cent. only on the cotton goods of this country, whilst this
country put a duty of three hundred per cent. on the sugars of
Brazil. For this state of things :there was but one remedy,
and that was the equalisation of duties on foreign and colonial
sugars. He (Mr. Gibson) considered that the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Labours ere) was entitled to the gratitude
of the country for having brought this subject before the
House. His interference was clearly justified, and, in his
opinion, whether followed with success or not, this debate
would, with others, make the country see the impoliey of
these monopolies, and create a feeling in all classes of the corn.
munity which it would be impossible for the Minister
ultimately to resist.—( Hear, hear.) To show again that the
present was the proper time to correct the blunders of the past
he begged to call the Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Glad-
stone's) attention to the state of the question as it now stood.
The sugar duties were about to expire—they would expire of
themselves. They were about to die, and could only be re•
suscitated by a new Bill to be brought into that House, and
carried into an Act. He now told them plainly, that if they
attempted in their new Bill to put their sugar duties on their
present principle—the principle of exclusion—the Government
would be met with the most strenuous opposition. It was per-
fectly intolerable that the poor and industrious of this
country were to be excluded from the use of foreign
sugar. At the present moment in England they
did not consume more sugar than they consul:xi forty
years ago. Rapidly as the population had increased—
greatly as our wealth, nationally speaking, had been augmented
—the people did not use per head one ounce more sugar than
they did forty years ago; the artisan and the labourer con-
sumed no more, no, nor yet so much, as was allowed to the
pauper in the workhouse. And, therefore, he gave fair notice
that the Bill for renewing the sugar duties, which must be
brought in, would be opposed, not clause by clause, but almost
word by word. It was right to do this, and those opposite
could not, in their hearts, blame them for it ; it was the only
way they had of battling with a monopoly which they had
themselves in principle condemned. They would be opposed
upon it on every stage ; not merely en the first reading but on
the second reading ; on the question that they do go into
Committee, on every clause and almost every word in Com-
mittee; on the third reading, and on the question that the
Bill do pass.—( Hear.) Their slavery delusion would avail them
no longer in the country. Its utter hypocrisy had been seen
through. Even the Anti-Slavery Society had found then out,
and would countenance them no longer. They were now opposed
to the paltry pretences which were used merely to delude them
and the country, and they were opposed to making the people
moral and religious at the point of the bayonet, and at the ex-
pense of the commerce and the industry of the country. He
told the Government no longer to look for support from the
advocates for the abolition of slavery.—( Hear, hear.) He
could tell the Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool (Lord
Sandon) that he must never again look for that support from his
constituents on this question that he had heretofore met
with. His constituents had given up that ground of opposition
to an equalisation of the sugar duties as a most transparent
deceit.—( Hear, hear.) He could tell the Noble Lord he
must not consider he now represented the merchants,
tradesmen, and manufacturers of Liverpool.—( Hear, hear.)
He felt convinced if they were to analyse the poll-books of the
town-clerk they would find that the Noble Lord and his
colleagues did not represent the majority of the shopkeepers,
manufacturers, and traders of Liverpool, but that they repre-
sented a class of men who stood forward in support of the party
who paid them best.—( Hear, hear.) He did not mean to ac-
cuse the electors of Liverpool or the Members for that
borough of being guilty of bribery and corruption, but
there was that feeling existing in the town of Liverpool
It would appear from the Members that Liverpool returned to
that House that they were in favour of monopoly. Such, how-
ever, was not the case, and he believed that the day would
come—indeed that it was not far distant—when the Noble Lord
would have to modify his opinions with respect to free trade,
to meet the wishes of his constituents, and he would be ex-
pected, on the sugar duties coming under discussion, to take a
prominent part in the matter. He would be called
on to say whether he was or not in favour of keeping out of the
markets of this country foreign sugar, and whether he was
favourable to commercial relations between this country and
Brazils. The law, as it at !present stood, prevented the manu-
facturers in this country from exchanging their manufactures
for the sugars of the Brazil and other countries. In short, the
protective system was the root and cause of all the difficulties
that had taken place, and the only chance they had was to
enable the West Indian proprietors to call out a spirit of in-
creased production. Lord Elgin commented most strongly
upon the manner in which the agriculture of the West Indian
islands had been carried on, and had stated that if parties in the
country had exerted themselves as they ought to have done,
they might have produced twice as much as they did at pre-
sent. The Hon. Member concluded amid much cheering.
Lord SANDON regretted that the Bon. Member for Man-
chester had thought it worth his while to introduce into this im-
portant debate the petty politics he had alluded to. He (Lord
Sandon thought he might have argued this great question
without making the assertions lie had done, because these
assertions were perfectly unfounded. The Hon. Member for
Manchester had, more than once, made the same charge
in that Nouse, and it had failed. He had more than