The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-17 00:00:00

PUBLIC SALARIES

Mr.
SecretaryClerk)le miann the
WILLIAMS,totheT rseeaesiunrgythe(
Sir George
Place, begged leave to ask him a question. In an early
Gent
part of last session, he (Mr. W.) moved for a return of
the number of persons receiving the public money in salaries
or pensions, to the amount of 1,0001. and upwards. This re-
turn was presented to the Treasury on the 10th of February.
Now what he wished to ask wa when the return would be
laid on the table of the House? s'
Sir G. CLERK said that the Report had been prepared
for some time ; but before the returns could be presented it
would be necessary for the Hon. Member to give a fresh
notice and to alter the form of his motion, as there were several
offices included in the return, which were not comprehended
in the Hon. Gentleman's motion.
Mr. WILLIAMS then gave notice that on Monday next
he would bring forward the motion m an amended form.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Sir G. CLERK moved that the House, at its rising, do ad-
journ till Monday.—Agreed to.
ESTIMATES.
Mr. WILLIAMS begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Government, whether he intended to take the
Army or the Navy Estimates first, in the Committee of Supply.
Sir R. PEEL said, the Navy Estimates would be taken
first ; but,for the convenience of the House, he would move that
' the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply be
postponed till Monday next.
The Order was then postponed.
EXPOR T OF COALS.
Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord
of the Treasury, whether, since the House separated last session,
there had been any order issued with respect to the export
duty on coals, and whether any alteration had taken place
in the amount of the duty ? He understood that
some modification had taken place in the duty, and
that the export of coals had been allowed, subject to that modifi-
cation. If this was the fact, it was desirable the House should
be in possession of some information respecting it.
Sir R. PEEL said that any order that had been male on the
subject should be laid before the House.
COMMUNICATION WITH AMERICA.
Sir VALENTINE BLAKE said he had, on the previous
evening given notice of a motion for considering the expediency
of establishing a quicker communication with America by rail-
roads and canals in communication with the ship canal across
Ireland, and thence by steamers across the Atlantic. He
now merely had to notice, that in the Times of this day it
was stated that his motion was for executing railways and
canals across the Atlantic. Of course the reporter would not
have been consistent if he had not added, "great laughter."
—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) If that had been the object of
his motion, the laughter would have been perfectly just. He
did not think it necessary to convert the matter into a breach
of privilege—( Laughter)—ard he hoped it would not be ne-
cessary to take any further notice of it.
Sir R. PEEL begged to assure the Hon. Baronet that
nothing would be harder than that he should blame the re-
porter; he had fallen into die same mistake himself.—(Great
laughter.)
Sir V. BLAKE was astonished that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet should have fallen into the same mistake as the records of
Parliament stated the purport of the motion which he made
dui ing the last session.
THE CATHEDRALS.
Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Baronet if he had had
any communication with the Dean and Chapter of Westminster
with respect to the admission fees into the Cathedral.
Sir It. PEEL said he had had several communications with
the Dean and Chapter, but he had not received any intimation
of any final arrangement having been made on the subject.
IRELAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Captain BERNAL, in rising to resume the adjourned de-
bate, said that after the able and eloquent speech, last even-
ing, of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland ( Lord
ilowick), it was but natural for the House to suppose that some
leading Member of the opposite side would have risen to reply to
him. He (Capt. Bernal) waited for some time in expectation
that this would be the case, and in moving the adjournment
he had been charged with standing between the Right lion.
Baronet at the head of the Government and the House. He
certainly should not presume to have got up at all, had
he known such would have been the case, and he thought
it necessary to give this explanation, as he had been
blamed not only by friends but rather by opponents. If
they wanted proof of the truth of Oxensteirn s saying, •• Go,
my son, and see with how little wisdom this world is governed,"
he thought it could readily he found in the present Govern-
ment in regard to their policy in Ireland. He had listened
with great surprise and equal attention to the speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir Jas. Graham). That it was all complaisance
and mildness he (Captain Bernal) was free to confess, but
through all that speech of blandishments it was very evident
that in his heart was lurking the old principle of " Protestant
ascendancy" and "No surrender." That speech would
show to Ireland that Ministers had never contem-
plated any measure whatever of effective concession.
and conciliation. There was a time when the Irish nation
made their solemn renunciation of a repeal of the union—there
was a time when there were no monster meetings—no meet-
ings at all, save those of a few noblemen and gentlemen who
turned their backs upon the Lord Lieutenant, because he wished
to govern the country in a spirit of fairness and impartiality.
—(Hear, hear.) The Government now had reduced the
country to three classes—infantry, cavalry, and artillery.--
(Hear, hear.) There might have been Governments in Ire-
land more arbitrary and blood-thirsty—that of Strafford, for
instance—than the present one—but they could not bring to
him the instance of any Administration that was more tho-
roughly anti-Irish than the present. Was he alone in this
opinion? Indeed he was not ; for, during the last session of
Parliament, the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Recorder of
Dublin (Mr. Shaw), maintained the same sentiments, though
expressed perhaps in somewhat milder language. That Right
lion. Gentleman maintained, too, and with pertinacious deter-
mination, that he had got hold of the right religion, and ho
was not alone in thinking so.—(Laughter, and a sign of dis-
sent from Mr. Shaw.) Why, he said, so late as last night, that he
would sacrifice his life for that which he and others held—the ex-
clusive possession of religious truth.— ( Hear.) He came now
to the conduct of the Government, in reference to the late
monster meetings in Ireland ; and he must say that he con-
sidered it most strange that, after watching them for nine
months, and even declaring that in them they viewed the pre-
parations for rebellion, they had only acted at the very last
moment, and that, too, with such precipitation. In respect to
the trials fer calling or attending these monster meetings,
lie must admit that the Rig ht Honourable Baronet
(Sir J. Graham) made a successful defence of the Govern-
ment, so far as the striking of the panel went. But the
broad and plain question for them to consider was, not
what was due to the mere technicalities of lawyers,
but what was due to the great principle of truth, ho-
nesty, and justice. He was sorry that the Attorney-
General for Ireland, who, it was promised, would have been
in his place before this, was not present, as, had he been so, he
should have made some observations, which, under the pre-
sent circumstances, he should refrain from. •It had been ss-
serted by a Noble Member of the Government (Lord Stanley )
that there had been a systematic attempt to force the Attorney-
General for Ireland into a broach of decorum.—( Hear,
hear.) He (Captain Bernal) was in a position to contradict
this ' • and to assert that no such attempt, that no such de-
sire had ever existed, except in the over-heated imagination
of the Right Honourable and choleric Gentleman himsel'.
He had a list of the appointments under Lord De Grey's Ad •
r ministration. It appeared that they had had ten preferments
to give away. He would merely refer to one of them. The
Rev. Holt Waring had been made Dean of Dromore, a sineenre
dignity, worth 1,5001. a year. This gentleman was formerly
Grand Chaplain of the Orangemen, a political agitator, re-
markable for his bigotry, and these were some of his exploits :
—ln the year 1835 there was a large meeting at Hillsborough.
Shortly after eleven o'clock, said the account, bands
announced the approach to the town of the first. divi-
sion, but at half distance.—(Laughter.) They were headed
by the Rev. Holt Waring. A union jack was hoisted as the
signal of their arrival. In a few minutes they were seen
marching down a steep hill, and approaching the place
of meeting, comprising in all not less than 20,000 persons.
Having escorted Mr. Waring to the front of the platform,
they received his flag, and having given three cheers—let
Hon. Gentlemen opposite mark this expression—they de-
ployed and took up their position around. —(Great laughter. )
The meeting at length amounted to 75,000 persons, and at
this meeting Mr. Waring made an inflammatory speech
against the Catholics, and the national system of education.
His merits were passed over by the late Government, and it
remained for Lord De Grey to appoint him to this situation.
With respect to his Excellency's thirty-nine chaplains—an un-
precedented number—they all agreed in one point, namely, op•
position to the system of national education. To leave the
system in such hands resembled the trying of conspirators
by a jury which was opposed to them.—( Hear, hear.)
In the year 1839 the Right Hon. Baronet made the volun-
tary and remarkable confession that Ireland was his chief diffi-
culty. Now he was anxious to put this question to the Right
Hon. Baronet—at what point would his difficulty become
realised ?—(Hear, hear.) Was he not satisfied with
having counteracted all the good which had been done in Ire-
land for the last fifteen years ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers. )
Was it not enough to have set sect against sect? Was not
the religious animosity of that country again excited 7 Was
not the country ruled by the army? Was not
the Duke of Wellington in fact Pro-Consul of Ire-
land ?—( Loud cheers.) He called upon the Right Honourable
Baronet to make a declaration as to what was the maximum
of difficulty with which he would be content. Did he wait till
Ireland was deluged with blood, and irretrievably lost to Great
Britain? He called upon the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward
and say what was his maximum of difficulty.—( Cheers.) Ile
(Captain Bernal) could not but express his regret at the
apathy which existed among the great body of English
Members as to Irish grievances.—( Hear.) If a sense
of justice could not rouse them to take part with
Ireland, perhaps a sense of self-interest might.—( Loud cries
of " Hear, hear.") The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State or the Home Department had let drop some signifi-
cant expaessions the other night in that debate. He hinted
at conspiracy. Let not Hon. Gentlemen be too secure in
their confidence. The same scenes which were now rehearsing
in Ireland, might be enacted in England. They might depend
upon it that it was not the disposition but the opportunity that
was wanting.
" Jam proximus ardet Ucalegon."
It was net by the vituperation of the Hon. Member for
Cork that they would conciliate the affections of the
Irish people. If they intended to rule Ireland
with advantage to England they must do it with re.
garsl to Irish notions, nay to Irish prejudicies.—(Hear,
hear.) Above all they must cherish the Catholic reli-
gion as a good, not tolerate it as an evil.—( Hear, hear.)
He asked were the present Government prepared to do
thiis ? The answer was, No. He repeated in the words
of a great deceased man, that the present Government could
not govern Ireland for England. The loss of a nation's good-
will (said the Hon Member in conclusion) is synonymous
with the loss of reputation. After long experience of all
your past tyranny, Ireland may, in the prodigality of her
mercy, forgive you, but surely she can never trust you.—(Loud
cheers.)
Mr. D'ISRAELI thought he ought not to- shrink on the
present occasion from expressing, without reserve, and with
the utmost explicitness, the view that he entertained of the
question before the House, and he trusted that in doingso he
would meet with the indulgence of the House. In the first
place, he must remark that in his speech the Noble Lord, the
Member for Sunderland, who had closed the debate last night,
repeated what was often stated in that House, a right apprecia-
tion of which would, he (Mr. D'lsraeli) imagined, throw great
light on the general subject, and facilitate the solution of that
vexatious political problem—he meant the right government
of Ireland. The Noble Lord referred to a period of more than
300 years ago—the period of the Reformation, and the
Hon. and Learned Member for Devonport (Sir George
Grey), while he equally, with the Noble Lord, avowed
his conviction in the truth of Protestant principles, seemed to
be of opinion, that between the introduction of those Protestant
principles of religion and the misgovernment of Ireland there
was a necessary and irresistible connexion. Now he (Mr.
Disraeli) wished to place before the House some facts which
were necessary for its consideration. If he were to
refer to that period in the history of Ireland when
the Government of the country approached nearly to the de-
scription which the Honourable Gentleman opposite
often offered as that which they wished to see established,
it would be a period by no means so distant as that
to which the Noble Lord referred. He would take,
for instance, a period of only two hundred years back—
the period immediately preceding the breaking out of
the great civil war. Now what was the Government of Ire-
land at that period ? There was a Parliament in Dublin called
bEVesi
rct
sae
brooi
fiys
I)—},
eat
drh ei
ar
Churchet
en twai
were Roman by a Protestant King, and presided over by a Protestant
yceatththoelicms.ajoTrihtye ofG Government
ernMmeemn-t
nsteealtand,that time a Protestant
of the country was carried on by a Council of State—presided
over by a Protestant Deputy—yet the majority of that
Council of State were Roman Catholics; the majority of the
sheriffs of counties were Roman Catholics ; and the prepon-
derating numbers of the magistracy were Roman Catholics.
It was, therefore, very evident that it was not a necessary con-
sequence of English connection, of Protestant ascendancy, or of
a Protestant Established Church, that those embittered feel-
ings that at present existed, and that system of exclusion which
so long flourished either in form or in spirit—it was by no
means evident, but very much the reverse, that these were the
consequences of that Protestant connection. There was a work
which threw much light on the subject—it was the Journal of
an English Baronet (Sir William Brereton). That writer
mentioned, he recollected, in one passage, the circumstance of