The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-06 00:00:00

rt° tiE SUN, LONDON, FRIDA f EVENING, JUNE 6 1545.

Mr. John Bernard Hartley was, with his father, engineer to the
new Liverpool docks. New docks were in course of construction
under the Bill of last year. The plans are in preparation for lay-
ing down rails along the docks. Agreed with Mr. Thompson in
thinking the connexion between the projected line and the docks
simple and feasible. Slips were in course of construction for
landing cattle at the docks. Considered the course proposed by
Mr. Thompson for shipping cattle advantageous. The "hoist"
proposed would answer all the purposes of shifting the coals from
the stages into the holds of the vessels in the docks beneath.
Mr. John Raslig, civil engineer, stated that he had examined
the country traversed by the proposed line, and the branches
of it, and his opinion was that, in an engineering point of
view, the lire bad been judiciously laid out to suit the cha-
racter of the country. Had examined the estimate of the
expenses of the railway, and thought they were ample for all pur-
poses. There were no engineering difficulties on this line. There
were two gradients in the line; one of them was 1 in 97, and the
other 1 in 90; but the. e would be no difficulty in working the en-
gine along them. There were two gradients, 1 in 87 and lin 97,
along the Liverpool and Manchester line, and a gradient of 1 in 80
along the Bolton and Leigh line. There were no objectionable
curves on the line. The railway running along the docks would
be particularly advantageous, and so would the elevation at the ter.
minus. The line would pass through an excellent coal.flcid,
which would be highly beneficial to the agricultural and manufactur.
ing population of these districts.
Mr. George Leather, an engineer, corroborated the Evidence of
the last witness in every respect.
Mr. John Hawkshawe, an engineer, had been engaged in laying
down and completing several railways. Knew the country which
would be traversed by the proposed line, and thought the line had
been judiciously selected. There were no engineering difficulties
on it. The curves and gradients were favourable, with one or
two trifling exceptions. Thought Mr. Thompson's estimates fully
sufficient to cover all expenses. _ _

Cross-examined by Mr. BRANDT—The Wigan coal-fields were
at present traversed by the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, but the
route of the canal was very circuitous, and it got out of the coal-
field as soon as it could.—(Laughter.)

Mr. Dangan gave confirmatory evidence. He was ready to com-
plete the proposed lineon the estimate furnished by Mr. Thompson.
Mr. Wightman had examined the line of the projected railway
in Liverpool, and the value of the land and loss occasioned by
pulling down buildings would be 102,176/.
Mr. Picton, architectural surveyor, corroborated the testimony
of the last witness.

Mr. Joseph Darlington, a land agent and ♦aluer, residing near
Wigan—The value of the land and buildings on the main line in
the neighbourhood of Wigan was 20,3981. 16s. 2d., and at the
Ormskirk branch 2,9404 9s. Oid.
Mr. John Herand said petitions had been presented from
Liverpool, Bolton, Wigan, and Bury, in favour of the projected
line, signed by 44,298 persons, comprising some of the first mer-
chants in Liverpool and the other towns ; also numerous peti-
tions from Irish towns and cities—Waterford, Newry, Clomnel,
and other places. _ .

Cross-examined by Mr. BRANDT—Was Secretary to the Corn.
pany, and was in some manner instrumental in getting up the pe-
titions, hut did not canvass for signatures.
With the exception of some formal evidence the case for the
promoters of the line closed, and the Committee adjourned.

GROUP L.
The Committee resumed their inquiry this morning, Mr. E. B.
Denison in the chair, when
Mr. Bonham Coster was called. He stated that he wts a large
proprietor of land in the neighbourhood of Petersfield, possessing
property in East and West Mein, Liss, and Maple Durham, and
also in the neigbourhood of Portsmouth, and in the Isle
of Wight. The country about his property was decidedly
over-timbered in consequence of the difficulty of getting it away.
Among this timber, there was much that was eligible for the pur-
poses of the navy ; and if this atmospheric line were to be formed,
there would be a great advantage to all the landed proprietors in
the country. He had no shares at present, but he was quite
willing to take them in order to give his sanction to the line. The
fares on the South. Western line were dearer, according to his
experience, than any other line, for he had paid the other day
precisely the same sum in travelling from Leamington, for 103
miles, which he had to pay for travelling the 77 miles to
Southampton. For all purposes he conceived that the atmos-
pheric line would be the best for the country at all the inter-
mediate stations.

Sir William Magnay stated that he had a large manufactory at
Chillford, near Albury, between Dorking and Godalming, and was,
in addition to a large business on his hands, a Government con-
tractor for a considerable amount. The Government contracts
were objects of great competition, and the question of carriage made
a most important difference. In consequence of the cheapness of
the carriage, and the facilities that the manufacturers pos.
sessed, it enabled them to comrete with the makers in the south
to such an extent that he had been induced to close one of his
mills and get part of his supplies from the north. The distance of
the terminus at Vauxhall entirely prevented any advantage from
the South-Western line. His carriage amounted to 1,0001. a

year, and he should immediately increase his power it this line
were to be formed. They used water power, but steam was the
means by which they dried their paper and they consumed a con.
siderable quantity of coals in boiling their rags. He had also a
mill near Rickmansworth, in Hertfo:dshire, but had never used the
Birmingham Railway, from which his property was about four
miles distant. It was of importance to him where the station was
placed, and he believed that the atmospheric line would pass by his
mill head.

To the cross.examination by Mr. CocasueN, Sir Wi:liam
stated that he was not aware that the line had been changed to
avoid Mr. Drummond's property, and if it did not pass near him,
and there was not a station at Albury, the whole of his evidence
would fall to the ground. If there were no station at Wonersh,
and if there were only stations at Godalming and Guildford, he
would be better as he was ; but, if there were a station at Sheer,
or at the south of Mr. Drummond's park, it would be a
great advantage to him. They sent all their goods to
London by waggon, but got their coals by water. They were now
27 miles from London, and he expected that the atmospheric line
would shorten the distance by two miles. _ _ _

Mr. John Sparks, a landowner at Wonersh, and in three ad.
joining parishes—He held about 700 acres in his own hands,
and had also a tan yard, from which goods, at the rate of
about two tons a week, were conveyed to and from London,
and he would save about half of his present expense
of carriage if the atmospheric line was made. He sent
from 40 to 50 beasts to the London market, and 500 or 600 sheep
during the year. He used Guildford market for his wheat and
Godalming for barley, and if a direct communication were opened
he should send a larger quantity of corn to each place. In the
neighbourhood of Cranky there was a considerable growth
of timber, which was now sent by water carriage, but was
slow and uncertain, and they did not enjoy the advantage which
they ought to possess. The terminus at London-bridge would cer-
tainly be the best.
To the cross-examination of Mr. H. SMITH, Mr. Sparks stated
that the feeling of the landowners was certainly not against the
atmospheric line. He now paid 255. a ton for carriage, and ex-
pected to save one half by the railway. His means of conveyance
were now waggons, although there was a canal within about two
miles, which gave them water conveyance to Guildford. He sent
his cattle and sheep to market, partly on foot, and partly by rail,
the d.fference between the projects being about three miles.
Mr. Samuel Lovegrove, at Gewhur4, near Abinger, a charcoal
burner and timber dealer, having a tyle.yard in his hands, stated
that he experienced considerable difficulty in getting his goods to
the London market. He sent about 10,000 sacks of charcoal to the
London market at a cost of from 3d. to 4d. a sack. The whole
weight might be about 200 tons, and he sent also about 110 tons
of timber, and he would save a considerable sum if the atmos-
pheric railway was made. He had lost an order of between 601;/.
and 7001. less than a fortnight ago, in consequence of the carriage.
For this purpose the Guildford and Chichester line would be per-
fectly useless to him, and though the atmospheric line was at
some little distance, yet, in the event of there being a station at
Albury, he would obtain all the advantage he desired.
Mr. Rose, a timber-merchant for the last 26 years at Dorking,
stated that the feeling of the people at and about that place were
decidedly in favour of the atmospheric line. He sent betwenn
six hundred and seven hundred tons of hoops to London every
year at a cost of 14s. to 15s. a ton, while by the railway they
would be sent at not more than ss. or 6s. a ton. He believed that
there were not less than 200,000 or 300,000 quarters of oats
brought from London at a cost of 2s. a quarter. There was also
a large quantity of oil.cake and other feed for cattle sent Commer-
cial goods now cost a guinea a ton for carriage, and he would save
1501. to 2001. a year. The terminus at London.bridge would also
be far more convenient than the other. He had been in favour of
the proposed Brighton line, but that would take them a long way
round about.
To the re-examination of Mr. Thawt.trison, the witness stated
that there had always been a considerable trade between Leather.
head, Ewell, Epsom, and Dorking, and there was but little inter-
course with the eastern country. All the coaches, waggons, and
other public conveyances passed by the route through Leatherhead.
He knew that coals were frequently to be obtained at Portsmouth
at from 16s. to 18s. a ton, and certainly much cheaper than they
were to be had in London. . .

Mr. Ede, postmaster and wholesale perfumer at Dorking, stated
his impression that the formation of the railway would materi.
ally increase the business of the town and neighbourhood.
Dorking had formerly been a favourite place for the residence of
gentlemen in the City, but it had been superseded by other places
which had better railway communication. He had personally
suffered considerably from the want of a railway, and he did not
think that the Brighton Railway could satisfy the requirements of
the country. Certainly if this railway were made he could double
the amount of his trade.

Dlr. White, an auctioneer and estate agent at Dorking, stated
that, until within the last five or six years, there had been a great
accession of strangers during the summer, two coaches extra
being put on the road on Mondays and Saturdays, but that
but that circumstance had made but little addition to the
trade of Dorking. The property there had consequently
greatly declined in value since the opening of the lines
to !Southampton and Brighton, and he had now several houses
which were at present not likely to be let, and others, for which he
was now negotiating, and which were to be let or not, as this Bill
was obtained or lost. By private inquiries, he had learned that the
amount of traffic was more than 23,000/. With respect to coals,
if the communication were to be opened to the south, they would
get them very much cheaper and in greater abundance. He
thought that the line from 'negate to Dorking would
not give them the same advantage on the atmospheric line, end
the whole of the feeling of the town was in favour of the latter.
He had taken the population within three miles of both the proposed
lines, and he found that within that distance there was a population
of 135,061 on the atmospheric hoe, and 117,966 on the Guilford
line. Between Epsom and Godalming there were upwards of 170
gentlemen's seats, the whole country being a continual park ground,
the distance being about 21 or 22 miles.
To the cross.examination of Sir. M. SMITH, the witness stated
that he did not think that the visitors of the town would be ab-
stracted by the coast if they had a railway to the town. In one
instance he had taken the population from Epsom to Portsmouth,
and in the other from Guilford, and he had included Chichester,
but had left out both Petworth, and Midhurst.
Mr. James Franks, a miller and farmer at Albury, stated that he
sent from seventy or eighty sacks of flour to Leatherhead, Dorking,
and some in London, and he thought that the London.
bridge terminus would be infinitely more convenient to
to him, and that railway communication would be very largely in-
creased by the proposed line.
Mr. George Dcwdney, a miller at Dorking, stated that if this
line were made, they would save three• fourths of the expense of
carriage. They now paid about 16s. a ton for carriage, while the
railway would carry for 4s. They sent about 480 sacks a-week, and
they could send 800 or 900 to London, and he believed that they
would do so. The Dorking flour had a very high character in the
London market, but the millers around Dorking were undersold by
the millers at Guildford, who could get flour to London for 6s.
a ton.
To the inquiries of the CHAIRMAN, the witness replied that
Dorking was eight miles from the Ryegate station, the same dis-
tance which Guilford was from Woking, and it was certainly not
entirely to railway communication, but she Guildford people had
the advantage of water carriage, the cost of which had been re-
duced since the railways were opened. And if they had this rail-
way, he believed they could compete with the steam-power on the
Thames; but he had now l'st three or four very good customers,
from the want of conveyance.
To the inquiry of Mr. °swat° , the witness stated that the dis-
tance from Dorking by Epsom was about 24 miles, and by Rei-
gate 26 or 27 miles.
Mr. Botlivi ell, a lime-burner and coal merchant for the last 30
years, at Dorking, stated that he employed from 25 to 30 horses
in carrying lime to London and bringing back coals. For the last
three or four years he had consumed about 10,000 tons of coals,
but the trade bad declined during the last nine or ten years, not-
withstanding the high repute which the Dorking line had in Lon-
don. Coals also were very dear at Dorking, and he believed that if
this railway were made. the trade would be recovered, and he felt
assured that the atmospheric line was the best for the town and
neighbourhood. There was a considerable quantity of grocery
goods, timber, stone, and slates, brought to Dorking for the
supply of the adjoining districts. He would bring all his vials by