The Sun.
London, England, 1821-02-09 00:00:00

M. H. SuNIXER and Mr. MAcDoNALD mutually
, Mr. G. BENNET said a feWr. words in explana-
tion of that part of the Petition.relating to -the
restoration of her Majesty's name to 'the Liturgy.
lie was the person _who had moved the Resolu-
tion to that egest at theCounty`Meeting, and it
was generally understood that such Was the. ob-
ject of the Petition.
Mr. SCIitLETT corroborated the statement -of
the Hon. Member who had just spoken as to its
being generally understood that the object of the
Petition was to obtain the restoration of the
Queen's name to the Liturgy.. He could almost
undertake to say, that everyman who had signed
the. Petition so understood it—he was sure that
every man mho was acquainted with the English
language, knowing the contents of the Petition,
could not.faii to interpret its intention that way.
The.Honourable Member for Surrey (Mr. Holme
Sumner.) said it was in Conseituence of his re-
quest that his own friends had not attended the
County Meeting in question. Ire was bound to
believe what the Hon. Member stated in that
House. But be mp3t,.say, that' he should not,
from his expressed sentiments and language at
other times, have conceived such to be the case.
That his friends had not attended, this Meeting,
he could only take to be owing to their entertain-
ing different sentiments on the subject from those
of the lion. Member,.
Mr. DENMAN said, that as this ivas a Petition
for the restoration of her Majesty's name to the
Liturgy, he 'could not let it paSs without a
few Observations. With reference to what had
already passed in the course of the discussion on
this subject, he begged to expreSs his conviction
that it was now more necessary than ever that such
petitions should be sent to that House. His rea-
son for thinking this was, that more unjust, ca-
lumnious, and wicked attacks had been made
upon her. Majesty after acquittal, than ever were
made even before. If he had been told that
after the prosecution which had been carried, on
against her Majesty in the other 'House was
ended, the prosecutors would be found coming
down to the House of Commons, that they could
have produced such 'and such evidence if they
had chosen, which evidence they did not pro-
duce, he declared on his own part that he
would not have believed it ; and-he was sure the
Noble Lord opposite would have been the first
to deny the possibility of such conduct being
practised. He repeated that he would not
have belitved it, even with the full preVious
knowledge he had of the prosecutors., who had
before Arial withheld the title of • Queen in
speaking of her, and had sent her to be tried by
-a tribunal, than which he thought it impossible
that any could be formed which must come to a
decision with so much prejudice and so much
interest. It had been 'charged upon the Attorney-
General and his Majesty's Ministers, that
having failed in their attempt to convict her Ma•
jesty at the bar of the House of Lords, they had
bethought themselves of a means of slandering
her, by circulating throughout the country, at
their own expence, statements relative to the
subject which were calculated to have that effect,
but which statements.were without foundation.
This charge had not yet been denied, and it was
necessary they should know if it was to be.
When his Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) was
refused to be heard in wishing to making obser=
vations which would have been admitted at any
honest tribunal, these slanders had been allowed
to circulate for three weeks,—a thing unparal-
leled ity a case of character and reputation. The
late proceeding against her Majesty was a Par-
liamentary proceeding, not complete without go-
ing• through the two Houses of Parliament ; and
therefore it was justly conceived that her Ma-

esty would
.have her trial. iu, the House of

. •
Commons. Therefore, although- it might .have
been possible for :her, Majesty. to have. pro-
duced all her evidence to the House of Lords,
as the delay would be much shorter in the other
House, there existed excellent reasons for with-
holding some parts of it. It was impossible to
foresee that. the matter would not come down to
the House of Commons ; but after all was done,
in the other House, her - Majesty's prosecutors
suddenly tell her. that she is not to have a trial,
or an opportunity of vindicating herself. But
.even after .it was finished in this manner in the
"House of Lords, the Speeches of certain Members
of that House, or more correctly speaking, per-
haps, Pamphlets purporting to be such Speeches,
were industriously circulated through the calm-
try under Government- franks. That was a
charge against his Majesty's Ministers which he
gave them an opportunity of denying. The ap-
prehension of her Majesty's prosecution being re-
newed. in that House, ought to have been
removed-- from the mind of her Majesty and
the country at the earliest moment, and as
that had• - not „ been done, it was scarcely
possible to believe that this prosecution had yet
terminated.• If it-were not -intended to go on
with i•t wLy was the House deprived Of the at-
tendance of the • Bight Hon. Member for -Liver-

pool ; or why were Ministers deprived of his aid

when they stood so lamentably in. need of- it
And • why, if there were not some lingering
intention of this nature, did the Noble Lord

Opposite, when this pacific .declaration was
scarcely - out of his mouth, come down- to that
Ifonsand speak of her Majesty in such terms
arid epithets as could - scarcely be. justifiable
und6r any circumstances E- He would': pursue this
strain no farther, but he would put a case: He
would suppose that under a. change of Ministry,
any one o. the ex-Ministers should-be accused,
and.a-cliarge-brought against him by the party at
the time Wiii?,.4) -Power. He would suppose the
offence with which this individual should be charg-
ed to-have:l3_on committed in Ireland about the

time of the'enion Act ; and he wonld suppose the
affair itself to be liribery, and that reports on the
subject prevailed to a vast extent in Ireland.

Suppose, in following up the-charge; these`Minis-
ters sholld send out a Commission to colle'd evi-
dence and examine thoroughly into the matter,
and follow thewhOle up by a Bill of Pains and
Penalties..: If the Bill of Pains and Penalties
We-ri.iqei-Nliat it pledged the House of Lords, or
the whble of the supporters of-the said Ministry
to curry it Ihrofigh—and if when in the House of

Lords, it had been abandoned by its abashed
prosecutors, what would they say if in the House
of Cbmmons they Minister was to say—Oh ! our
case was confined within certain limits—we could
have producod eighty witnesses of the fact if We
had chosen ? • Was it possible„he asked, that the
House of Commons could- sit by and endure it ?
Was it possible that'-they could sit by and hear
their Queen so treated without coming forward
to shield her. from-it and. had he not dßsCrilied
the conduct of the Noble Lord ? He (Mr. Den-
man) had never any doubt, of the illegality of the.
omission of her Majesty's name to the Liturgy,
and had never lost an opportunity of expressing
his opinion to that effect. The Queen was now
accused of having .done what she had all along
done—demanded- her just rights. All he had
to say on the general subject was, that if, when
the Noble Lord came down to.that House with
his money in one hand., and his reputed charges in
the other, her Majesty had accepted his .money,
she would have shewn herself unworthy of that
generous devotion to her cause which the whole
people of England had so strongly manifested,
and which they would continue to show in spite
ofall the attempts that might be made to restrain
them.

Lord CASTLEREAGH did not rise for the pur-
pose of making a reply to the speech of the Hon.
Member, which he did not 'think, in most,of its
parts, a proper one for him to make. It was not
that be was indisposed to answer the Hon. and
Learned .Gentleman, but he did not see that be
was obliged to follow every thin.' that the Learn-
ed Gentleman chose to say in the performance of
his professional duty when he was a little out of
temper. He was sure that he (Lord Castlereagh)
had no wish to retrain those sorts of battles in
Parliament which. Hon. Members had already
fought over in their respective counties—and he
had not seen one of the performers concerned at
the Surrey Meeting, absent from the discussion
that night. He thought much time might be
saved by refraining from this practice ; but the
discretion of doing so must be left to the taste
and good judgment of Honourable Members. It
really was a most whimsical observation of the
Hon.. anc Learned Gentleman, by way of excuse,
for branching into every topic that entered his
imagination, that a prayer for the restoration of
her Majesty's name to the Liturgy was found in
the Petition from Surrey.. And it was equally
strange and whimsical that he could find no other
opportunity of answering every topic in his (Lord
Castlereagh's) Speech the_ other night. Although,
however, it -.vas only the Learned Gentleman's
wish. to confine himself to the point of the Litur-
gy, he supposed he had his brief in his hand
which directed him as to the points he was to
touch upon, and, what he was to, say on them.
Mr. DEN3LIN here interrupted the Noble Lord
on a point of order.. Ile appealed to the Chair
whether he was to submit to such misrepresenta-
tion. He had spoken as a Member of Parlia-
ment, and as such was entitled to credit for_the
sincerity of his sentiments.

_Lord CA ST,LER EA,GII rose, but cries of "Chair,"
' from the Opposition, induced him to sit doWn.
The SPEAKER stated, that if the ]louse under-
stood, from the mode in which the Noble Lord
made his observations, that they.amounted to
direct personal imputation, he • could have no
difficulty in saying that such conduct was
highly disorderly. But he begged the house
to consider the. situation he was in, and
whether it Would tend to any usefulness, if
in the course of the debate he, as Speaker, were
to take upon himself to interrupt Honourable
Members in consequence of anything they might ,
say. In stating this, he.could tAtlAufg the House,;
that with respect to the passage alluded to on 1
the preSent occasion, he never, bad heard any
passage, according to.his notions, more free from

a charge of calumny or direct personal disresped
Lord CASTLEREAGH declared, that so far fron
meaning to be disorderly or disrespectful in wha
he bad said, he was rather desirous of diminish.

ing the responsibility of all that he said. Him-
self and his Hon. and Learned friend (Mr.
Brougham) often said one thing one day-, and
contradicted it the next ; he thought it but fair
and , reasonable to conclude that he . spoke in
the character of an Advocate one night, and
as , a Member of Parliament the next. It ap-
peared, however, that to-night -he was .to be
regarded as .speaking in -,the character of a
Member of Parliameht. The. lion. and ,Learned
Gentleman complained that there should be any
discussions or publications with reference to the
Queen's trial now. passed... This .he bad a right
to expect if the question were set at rest•on both

sides. But what was going on in the country ? I►
what way had lion. Gents on the other side

meaned themselveq at the Surrey meeting the other
day ? What invectives did they not indulge in there
against Ministers and the Milan Commission ? It
was too much for the Hon. and, Learned Gentle-

man to suppose that he was to have free-war-
ren and free-chase. after Ministers—to have

all the battle. on their own side, and Ministers
were to have no pis ilege in reply. With respect
to the lion. and Learned Gentleman's disappro-
bation of the publications he had dwelt
must say that he did not think that was very rea-
sonable either, when her Majesty was sanctioning
and circulating through herown immediate agency
•sentune..nts- so base, that the public press did not
present a parallel. And if, 'in the post bag of
some country village was found a letter, under a
Government frank, was his Majesty's_ Govern-

anent to be called on to account for it. On this

head he must, at the same time, say, that the
most. unfounded represeutations had been made.
As to the eighty witnesses -which the Learned
Gentleman had spoken of, he begged to remark
that he had replied to his Learned Friend's (Mr.
Brougham's) Speech, and not to any thi►►g that
he had said. Ills Learned Friend had made his

speech at that late hour that it was impossible to
answer the misrepresentations it contained. But

they were not on that account to be set down as

admitted by him (Lord Castlereagh). The real
state of the case was, that it had never been as-

serted that there were eighty witnesses ke.pt back.
It would. be in the re( of ection of the House,that
when the first witnesses carne over they were
most brutally attacked ; and that when it got air
'over tfie rater rt waslhe weans of deterring others

. ,
from Coming. The. assertion,' therefore, was, iii
Substance, that BO witnesses -hid been examined
before
,the Milan Commission, who. declared them,
selves,ready and. 'willing to come and swear to
certain facts. when called on. -These witnesses
when called on would not obey the call, having
heard of the affair at Dover. Government had
not laid aside these witn:essesthey wished to
bring them forward, but w unable to dolllisi f r
the retson heltad Stated, '77e'hOped' lie .haril"-n w
said enough on the subject to satisfy the House
and the Hon. and Learned_ Gentleman. He noW
gave that Hon. and Learned Gentleman notice,
as' he-hail done- on a former night, as ve/las-to all
those who called themselves friends to the Queen,
although they were only pursuing their own ob-
jects in doing so, and making her an. instrument
for party 'purposes, that as long as the system
which now prevailed of inflaming and- misleading
the public mind was kept.up, no, restraint what.-
ever should prevent him from stating what he be-
lieved to be the truth to the Irouse.--(Cheers.)
Mr. DENmAN explained.
Mr. Hr; ME thought the Noble Lord ought not
to. have made assertions about the Queen's being
instrumental- in the publication of sedition, with.
out producing his authorities.
Mr. Alderman Wool), in allusion to what had
fallen from the lIOn. Member for SUrrey the
other night, stated thatnotwithstandingthe Hon.
Member had been among -his-Constituents lately,
lie had not been able to lind one who had a bill
against. her Majesty. Some one had asked if
people
,in Surrey paid their bills regularly ; but
this had not been answered. If the Hon. Mem-
ber for Surrey or for Somerset would bring new
proof of one shilling having ever been paid by her
Majesty towards defraying the expenses of any
of the Addresses -that had been sent up to her,
he would undertake to pay them 1001. for every
shilling so proved to have been paid.--(Laughter.)
—With respect to what the Noble Lord had
said of her Majesty's calling the people of this
country her people, he had examined the original
manuscript, by which he found that there was no
such expression in the answer in question,- but
much the reverse. It was there stated the people.
He called upon the House to notice this conduct'
in the Minister of the Crown, who came down
there and wished to make the House believe a
thing on the testimony of a book he-held- in hiS
hand, which was directly the reverse of the fact.
As for the brutal attack-talked of by the Noble
Lord at Dover, it was nothing-more than two 'or
three old women, laughing at the Italian wretches
who had landed. there:(Laughter.):—The fact,
lie asserted, was so. While 'these wretched pack-
ages were being examined at the Custom House,
two or three old women got together and scoffed
at them, and said—" Get home again'," in a gruff
voice ; and this was enough to take them Over to
Rolland for protection.
Mr. HusKissoN observed, witlrreference to the
worthy Alderman's explanation, that the error of
the press he alluded to in the Queen's answer
had not only occurred in the pamphlet he refer-
red.to, but it had appeared so also in all the
newspapers. As at Dover and 'at Canterbury
there was; he believed, no one with her Majesty
besides the worthy Alderman, capable of the
task of composing this answer, it might have been
as well if he had not left the country for so many
months in error on the subject. He was not,one
who thought that, much importance was to be at-
tached to these answers. - He could not persuade
himself that her Majesty 'amused herself with
reading- over all the answers made, in her name.
He thought that the worthy- A lderman, and the
lion. Member for Aberdeen, who had a taste for
this kind of latent sedition, most probably em-
ployed 'themselves in that way, as much as they
had in participating in and 'directing the numer-
ous' pilgrimages that had been made to Branden-
burgh, in search of " all that is pure in our holy
religion, in virtue; piety, and the purest parts of
one Constitution." -
After a few wordS from Mr. Alderman Woon,
the Petition was read and ordered to be- printed.
Mr. PELITAM presented a similar Petition from
Spolden.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. Hump presented a similar Petition from
Perth. He took that opportunity to repel with
scorn and contempt the insinuation of the Com-
missioner of the Woods and Forests (Mc.!Hus-
kisson), that he was fond of latent sedition. If
his Majesty's Ministers thought the Queen guilty
of sedition, he did not give them credit for having
the charity not to briip, forward a charge against
her. The Hon.-Member then read from a copy
of the original manuscript of her Majesty's answer
to the Canterbury Address, which spoke of
" his Majesty's subjects" and the benefits
she had received from them. • This, he said, was
a complete recognition on the part of her Ma-
jesty of the relatiOnship in which she stood to-
wards the people of this country.
Mr. II tsiitssoN explained, and the Petition
was then read and ordered to be printed.

KENT PETITION.
Mr. HONEYWOOD -presented a Petition from
the Gentry, Clergy, Fresholders,' and Inhabi-
tants or the 'County of Kent. With respect to
this Petition, he had to state to the House that
the MO Sheriff of the County, notwithstanding
the requisition was signed by a great number of
the most respectable inhabitants of the County,
had" refused to convene a Meeting of the County.
—The 'County Meeting, - therefore, •had been
obliged to be held in the Town Hall of Maid-
stone, and in the Nisi Prius Court. He-believed
it was the first time in "the memory of man that a
Meeting of that County had not been held in the
open air. ;It was, therefore, not so numerous as
it might littVe been, the Court in question only
holding between 6 and 700 persons. The Meet-
ing, however, such as it was, was most unani-
mouS; one hand only being •held up against the
Resolutions, and that was by a Half-pay Lieute-
nant of the waggon train. He moved that the
Petition be brought up.
Sir E. KNATorntmt. begged -to offer a few
words on the subject of the Petition. He felt it
necessary, in-:viilicpAion of the conduct of the
High Sheriff, to state that that Officer's reason
for not convening the Meeting in question
,was,
as he then'expressed it, because he did not be-
lieve the object of the Meeting 'to be in unison
with the `sentiments of the County in general;

and he mast Say,Thht in this opinion be concurred,
and there was abundant proof of The justice of
it. AMongst those who signed the:Requisition,
only five Magistrates out of two hundred were
found. The Meeting was indeed meant •to be
exclusively of hisilon. Colleague (Mr. Honey-
wood) and friends.
Mr. lioNEywoon ox7l.ine‘d2ii He said that
amongst the RequiSitimtts NeriNve Peei,s, of the
'Realm, several Viscounts, anal otheri of great
rank and considerAion in the county.
Sir R.Wir.som avowed himself to have been
one of the Requisitionists alluded to'. The
High Sheriff had only, to look to the number; and
respectability of the signatures, without any re-
ference to the sentiments of the 'county; This
was one more instance of the impolicy of the
Noble Lord's. Bill on this subject. -
Dr. Lt.r.snENGToN thought that a more complete
exemplification of the irnpolicy of the Noble.
Lord's Bill had hardly ever been presented be-
fore the present occasion. It was now; come to
that pass, that when a requisition signed by four
or five Peers of the realm, and:seVeral other per-
sons holding rank in' the county, was presented
to a High Sheriff, it was refused' to be Complied.
with under the enactments of this 'Act of Pa,dia...
inept. This was not at all to be wondered at,
when it was considered • who the Sheriffs were.
They were -nominated' by the Crown, 'and 'the
Magistrates were under the 'same nomination:
The Lord Lieutenant appointertlltem,-arrd it fre-
quently happened that they elected those who
agreed with them in political opinion. The systent
now acted upon came to this, that you cannot:haves:
a County Meeting, unless you find live 3ragis'4
trates holding the' same political-opinions. with
yourself. .The Sheriff now. by his single fiat,
took upon himself to determine whether or not a
Coubty Meeting should be held _or not. He
would say the Sheriff had no right. to take the
object of the Meeting into his consideration: be,
fore he complied .with the call of any set of .re-
quisitionists. He regarded that of which hecorn-
plained as the consequence of the Noble-Lnrd's
Bill, which had materially abridged the'ancient
and essential right of petitioning. To what these
measures might ultithately fOrce the people.of
England he would not say ; but if any thing-
could- force them to disorderly courses, he
thought it was likely to be the loss of those
right's Whichhad been unjustly and tyrannically
taken from them..
Mr. R;MA.uTxX rose to stnooth the front oldie
Learned Doctor. lle-wisbed to ask the Learr3ed
Doctor, or any other person; whether.,._previOsfy'
to'the passing of the Act of last Session, it w.a.s.iti.
the power of any number of -Requisitioniiti. to.
compel u Sheriff to call a County Meeting.-,-
(Hear, hear !)-----The Sheriff could reftr4e be-
fore as he could now ; so he (Mr. Martin) coild
not understand what mischief had , been &me-0.10-
the Bill (tithe Noble Lord.
SIR R. WILSON—As an answer-vas called for-
31r. R. 'MARTIN-No;
Sir It WILSON would giVe an answer to the grestion whicft
had been put. }Were. the passed. requi.iitionists w!leii re- '
fused by the. Sherill; could assemble by themselves ; this Ins
now prevented. .

Sir
E. KNArcinver.i. and Mr. ROXErivOOD mtitnally
es-
incu.

. .
Mr. BURRELL, in reply to the observations of the Learned..
Doctor, would remark that the Lord Lieutenants of Comities
Were men of high character, and amonfithem'were fame highly
respected characters, whn held the seine opinions with the tier-
t/ernen:-. on the opposite- gi4e of the House, sO, it to be
supposed that the Crown •coald use undue influence with theru?•
Ile denied that the Magistracy of England were so directly:
under the influence of the Crown. as-the Learned Doctor seemed
to believe, and he should think theta degebded if they were-
He believed the Magistraev of this county to be the most inde-
pendent in the whole world. Some from a Mistaken- sense of
duty might have interfered improperly, but-he denied that they
merited the character which had been given of them. *.•
Sir R. HERON agreed that 'litany of the Lord LieUtenanti
of Counties. were among the most virtuous, honourable, and in-
dependent characters in the kingdom ; but it die, sometimes
happen, that when thth virttunis, honest, and independent per-
sons discharged their • duty:independently; they were removed
from their Lieutenancies; 'arid degraded by-Mini4teN, hoWevei
such attempts at degradation-might raise them in the estimation'
fo the public. . .
Mr. F. PALMER chnsidewd the 'Magistrates to be ar.
pointed from political motives:'- Living on the borders of his
County he bad wished to be placed in the Commission, but
his applications had for • three .y: ars beeri iinktecest4M:-. His
priVate character would bear the sea-?rest scrutiny, and he knew
not to what to ascribe the felerc of his repeated applications,
if not to his political opinion.
Mr. BURRELL explained..
Mr. BENNET (of Wiltshire), knew the name of the
Gentlemen was :not in the Commission'.,He had been toW .*1
by the Clerk of the Peace. - Why it was not there he did !loc.
know.

Lord PALMERSTON could take upon hithself to'saY.dl.l
a more honourable character could net be named than the•Larl,
Lieutenant of the County of.Wittshire - • •
.
LUSH ING TON explanatiorr, said; he had- remarke4
that it had frequently -happened, as it would -happen axairt,
that a Lord Lieutenant .would appoint such Magistrates-as tcu-
curred With him in politics. To this positiOn he adhered ;' he
neptired the assertion that he had stated the Whole Magistraty
oflhe country to he untlei die influence of the Crown.
Lord CASTLEREAGH remarked, that there were more
than two hundred Magistrates in the county of Kent. All
could not be unite': the influence of the Crown, and he would
leave it to the Honourable Gentlenian. to say, whether it
would be prudent that a Meeting should by held,--when
live Magistrates out of two hundred- -could not be found 't!,i
sanction it. •

. Sir E. KNATCHMILL explained. • • • -
The petition was orderer] to be printed. -
Mr. S. RICE moved that 'theretshould be laid'beforc the
House returns of all the -sums,presetitcd within the laSt tCri
years to each of the Grand Juries of Limerick-..copies. of -ac
counts of the late Treasurer, and returns of the sums issued out
of the Consolidated Fund; to the cotuity of Limerick ; with ac-
counts of the repayments made, and. of - any -balance
.

• BOSSTNE ELECTION.
Mr. ELLIS presented'a Petition •frforii•Mr. James `Webster,
who had petitioned.against the return for the Borough of Bos-
sing. The Petitioner having become a bankrupt, wished Wwithdraw his Petition. He (Mr. Ellis) prOpoed to examino
person then inlattendance, to prove the,bankruptcy,. and than
to move that the order for taking the Petition into consideration
should be discharged.
• The. Petition having been read, n Mr. Gilbert Forrester was
called to the,har. fle proved the bankruptoy•of Mr. WebWr,
and withdrew.

Mr. IMLIS then Moved that. Mr. James Webster Shottid
have permission to withthatir his Petition. .
Aftera few worthi from Mr. A. BARING) Mr. LoctalAßT;
Mr. AnEacßo um:, and the SPEAKER, the motion was agreett
to; and the Order of the Day'for taking the-Petition into con-
sideration was discharged accordingly. - .
BIRMINGHAM PETMON,
Mr. DUGDAJA: presented -a Petition from *Ole
Merchants, Manufacturers, :and Traders of the
town of Birmingham, Whith had. been voted in
Angust' last, but not presented before in conse-
quence of the frequent adjournments of the
:House. The .Petitioners had presented a Peti-
tion on the 12th-of May last,, praying for an in-
quiry into the existing distress, and into the-most
effectual means of relieving it. -No measure bad
been adopted for that purpose, with the excep-
tion of the appointment of -a Committee to in- •
quire into the state of-.our foreign trade, which
the Petitioners consikreti of minor -importance,