The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-19 00:00:00

not to be regarded as the reflectWtof -a.mairror, but at Me per-
manence of a picture, and th6refoire titre was required for the
features to settle. PubliC opinion ought to follow, not to pre--
cede, the deliberatiOns of Parliansent,-. If that was at all times
proper, how much more so no*,-,loleis the public mind was so
exposed to novelties in cipiniona and events ? It had been stat-
ed that 150 Members were returned .by BOrough -influence.—
Ile would here mention, npt as important iii itself, but asshow-
ing the accuracy of Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, that
this number was quoted from Lord Grey's petition of 1793,
without adverting to the addition of 100 Irish Members since
that time. Every government must be more or less oligarchi-
cal, except the government of the unit of despotism,; the more
democratical a government was, the more oligarchical it became.
But there was •no greater fallacy than to represent the MO Mem-
bers as if they were returned by one united corporation. They
never did, and never would pull together. It was a greater
misapprehension to suppose, that if triennial Parliaments were
restored, one Parliament only would be held every three years.
Reasons of precaution, as beneficial, to the people as to the Go-
vern:tient, had required a dissolution one year before-the period
limited by law. Those reasons of precaution would not be less
likely to operate in triennial Parliaments. Miscellaneous cases
of deaths of monarchs, changes of administration, and other
circumstances, would occasion still more frequent dissolutions.
Triennial Parliaments would therefore be very little more than
annual Parliaments. Besides we were to regard not only our in-
ternal liberty, but our foreign glory. If we were surrounded,
as Bishop Berkeley supposed, by a brazen wall, frequent elec-
tions might, with less hazard, be ventured upon ; but we had
to protect and maintain our glory in other countries, and there-
fore the executive must not be too unsteady and precarious.—
The inconveniences of elections, as they nosy occurred, was a
price we paid wisely and willingly for our liberty. He would
not detain the House longer at. this late hour ; but he' hoped
the House would not agree to the motion of the Honourable
Gentleman. .

Sir ROBERT WILSON said he rose to support tlle.motion
of his Hon. Friend from his own conviction of its necessity and
propriety, and in compliance with the wishes of 2,000 of his
constituents. Before he proceeded to state his reasons for vot-
ing for the motion, he begged, in the name of the friends of
reform, to offer his acknowledgments to his Hon. Friend- (Mr.
Lambton), not for the talent he had displayed in support of the
motion, for that,was the natural fruit of his genius and appli-
cation, but for eitie industry he had bestowed on the subject.-
- The opinions and views of the great body of the reformers were
now embodied. It could now be seen whether the reformers
could show, not balm; but poisonefor a sickening state. Even
the enemies of reform admitted that the reformers were theore-
tically right in demanding a free, full, and fair representation.
He could say from his intercourse with the people of this coun-
try, that if Reform were a . mere theory, it would not have in-
terested the people. Many might contend for the . victory of
truth over fallacy, because fallacy must prove remotely perni-
cious. But the people would not take a deep interest in abstract
theory. In other countries tumults, violence, and massacres
had been seen in consece.ence of the attachment of the people
to abstract principles. It was not so in England. But the
question of Reform had taken such deep root, because the peo-
ple were persuaded that it was necessary for the real interests,
for the general happiness and prosperity of the country.; because.
they were persuaded that it was the regulating principle of
power and-life ; of liberty, person, and property. He agreed
with the Hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Wilmot) that it
derived great energy from taxation. There were two causes
why it did so : first, the people felt themselves oppressed by in-
tolerable taxes upon their industry, to such an extent as he had
formerly sholn, that 240 days in the year were occupied in
earning what they paid in taxes. In the next place, they felt
this burden more galling, because the greatest part of it • was
for paying the interest of public debt. The Member for New-
castle had argued, that the people had considered the war just,
necessary, and proper. But a great many had, from the first,
been persuaded that the war had been founded in injustice. It
had not been waged for the liberty, but against the inde-
pendence of the people. Great part of the money had been
spent to induce persons to become 'supporters of the war, and
to engage the . independence of others on the same side. Cer-
tainly a great proportion had been expended to animate industry
in order to dispose the people to approve'of the-war. The very
interest had been paid by loans during the war ; and the people
werecontent to enjoy the temporary prosperity, in the hope of not
seeing the evil day, as Louis XI V., who had said that he cared not
ifthedeluge should flow afterhe was gone. Anypeople could have '
been so corrupted : but it was the duty of their Representatives
to have been more prudent, to have foreseen the calamities, and
to have prevented them. The people now saw, that no remedy
could be applied by the House without Reform. If the House
had the will to apply a remedy, they had not ' the -power, be-
cause they were without the confidence of the people. The
people asked not spoliation, but a remedy that would give
them their due and necessary proportion of the fruits of their
own labour.—(Hear, hear was true that they had the
li-
berty of expressing their opinions, and that there was still— ,
thanks, to the exertions of Hon. Gentlemen, in and out of
Parliament—some practical liberty left to the country. The
Right Hon. Member for Liverpool had indeed compared the
liberty enjoyed in England with that enjoyed in America ; and
after saying that nine-tenths of tho inhabitant* of the United
States were in a state of actual slavery, had inferred that the
degree of practical liberty existing in America was less. than
that which existed in England. lie (Sir R. Wilson) had never
stood forward as the eulogist of the forni of government adopt-
ed in the United States. He allowed that a large proportion of
the population of those states consisted, of slaves ; but .those
who urged that circumstance, as a matter of charge against
America, ought not to forget that slavery was made a part of
its Cdnstitution, whilst it was under English domination, and
that it had- recently refused to admit into the union a - state
which had refused, to abolish slavery. But was slavery un-
known in every part of the British Empire ? Or were not
slaves a kind of property acknowledged' by the law in Jamaica,
Guadaloupe,, and other of the West India Islands ? Before
the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool took credit to' England
upon that score, upon another occasion lie ought to bring in a
dill for the abolition of slavery in the West India Colonies--
The question of Reform did not depend upon mere precedents.
The people of England had, a right to 'every improvement in
their government which the increased intelligence of the age,
the growing knowledge of society, the change in the position of
property, and the altered .temper of the population rendered
desirable, if that improvement was compatible with the safety
of the country. ' Reform was'a question which, whether it was
or was not connected with the principles and precedents• recog-
nised ii;, the reigns , of the Edwards and the Henries, must at
no distant period be fujly recognised by the House of Com-
mons. He should indeed despair of its success were it to de-.
pend upon nothing else than its justice : it depended, however,
upon other causes—upon the knowledge, the temper, and the
courage of the community ; and he was convinced, hat if the
'reformers persevered with the same quiet and determined spirit
which. they had: recently exhibited; many of the gentlemen
whom he saw-around . him would not, sink into their graves
without beholding the House of Commons a full, fair; and equal
representation of the people. • ,
Mr. ABERCROMBY could not give his vote on this occa-
sion without stating to the House the qualifications which' he,
wished to accompany-it. It would' be unnecessary for him to
advert to the ancient usages of Parliament as appointed by the
'COnstitation, because he considered they were accurately de-
fined. The duration of Parliament was fixed and ascertained,
as also were the places Which returned Members and the right
of voting ; in all of which, however, ChangeS had taken place,
which changes were not unknown to 'the Constitution. The
plan which had been introduced this night by the Member for
Durham, he had a fundamental objection to ; and which, if car-
ried into effect, he could view in no other light than as tending
to a complete revolution. It was very easy to adopt that system
of Reform.which would leave the fabric of the. Constitution safe
and secure. That would not be the case if the present plan
were adopted. -It would certainly
_make the House of Com-
.mors'a very' popular asseeriblage ; but that popularity.wodld
eventually entail disgrace on the. House itself, and consequently
Misery On thenation atlarge. When he voted in 1810 for a
ParliamentarY Retbrni, thejelan introduced was of that mode-
rate nature•that none could find a reasonable objection to it. It
had been in part acted upon this Session in the case of the Gram-
pound Disfranchisethent Bill ; but here Reform was not car-
ried to its necessary extent. In all cases of this nature it was
;proper that the-Crown should-balance its- strength between the
people and their representatives; and lie could not conceal him-
self from the fact, that the influence of the Crown had Of late
years very Muth increased in that House. It wag impossible to
look at the expence of colleCting the revenpe,. and the increase
ofinfluence in the Army and Navy, and not be satisfied that:the
CroWn possessed' an equal increase of influence in that House,
'which if not checked in time; might become so overwhelming as
toproduce very disastrous consequences. With respect to triennial
Parliaments, he conceived that period was the shortest possible
duration to 'width they could be reclined. For some reasons
that reduction' might be thought advisable but 'he could
never be brought to agree to it, unless the expences attending
elections were in eome 'way or other reduced also. Without this
the remedy would be inconceivably worse than the evil. Upon
this debate a great deal had. been said against Parliament, and
nothing infavour of it.. -He thought the conduct of Parliament
had been unfairly dealt with. Since he had the honour of a seat
int bat-House,'he had seen wisdom displayed on both sides.
Although on several occasions the people had instructed their
Representatives, yet on others the Parliament had instructed the
people, and that profitably and successfully too. Without care'
rying the. House far back, lie would•remind them of the concili-
atory
measure which. -bad passed. that Reuse, and . was under •
consideration elsewhere. If that measure were carried, the cre-
dit of it would fairly belong to the Parliament, which had in
this case instructed the people. In giving his vote on thii oc-
casion, he wished to be distinctly understood as giving no sane-

tion to tile plan which had been introduced. Ha was desirous
that the House should not suffer an impression to go abroad,
that, no conces'sCort would.be granted to the people ; if it did, it
would not only. embmger the security of the House, but the
peace of the country also.

Mr. F. PALMER, in supporting the motion, conjured the
House to pay sonic attention to the petitions on this subject,
under which the table now groaned.
Mr. 6. WORTLEY admitted that there were many Mem-
,
hers who were returned to that House by the influence of others;
he admitted that there wasa very strong and general feeling in
favour of Reform ; still he contended, that the House of Com-
mons, as at present composed, was the only assemblage by
which the Government of the country could be successfully
carried on. -• In tracing the arguments which had been adduced
upon the present representation of Boroughs, he could not go
back to the reigns of Henry IV. and James 1. but he must look
to later periods, when all dissensions between the Government
and the people were healed. From that- time he could not find
that any alteration " had taken place in those Boroughs. He
should like to be informed when either Corfe Castle or Old sa:.
rum were otherwise represented than they were now ? The
right of representation had been given, and wisely given, in or-
der to create a desire to procure influence in that House. He
was clearly of opinion that, when the Acts of the Houk of Com-
mons were to receive a check from the House of Lords
and the Crown, it was decidedly necessary that that in-
fluence should exist. He was glad that the right to ex-
ercise that influence; and the general question, had been
brought before - that House; that, was the proper place to
discuss it, and he felt convinced the more it was debated the
more speedy termination it would meet with, as the coun-
try would soon be Satisfied of the emptiness of the present
plans of Reform. One of the pretexts in favour of that Reform
had been the complaint that the present House of Commons was
not an index to public opinion. Of a certain portion it certainly
was not; nor ought it to be ; it was the duty of Parliament
to look coolly to the. consideration of every question ; it had
done so, and its decisions always produced great satisfaction to
the country. If any proof were wanting of this, he would refer
the House to the memorable proceeding of a few months past,
and that would aiibrd them abundant conviction. He fully
agreed with the Member for Caine, that no alteration could
possibly take place in the duration of Parliaments, unless some
arrangement were entered into by which the expences of the
election could be curtailed. Indeed, if the Parliament meant
to maintain its other principles, and ensure a fair exercise of
its prerogatives,- it would not suffer any encroachments to be
made on them by the visionary schemes of speculative Refor-
mists.—(ilear: hear !) .
Lord BURY justified the reformers from the charges of
disaffection and disloyalty which had been urged against them.
If reform were not speedily granted, 30 years of misrule and
misgovernment would meet with a dreadful retribution. Reform
would come, and come to teach Parliament the uses for which
it had been instituted.

Mr. R. MARTIN. was against the motion. He was con-
vinced that if he and the friends with whom he generally acted
were to make their obeisance to the chair and quit the House,
leaving the question to be decided on by the Gentlemen opposite,
the motion, would be.negatived, even amongst them, by a most
triumphant majority. ,
Lord MILTON said, that he had always thought the ques-
tion was important, and had always approached it with caution.
He had early in life been an advocate for the continuance of that
Constitution, which he had been taught to believe worked well.
—(Hear !)—But times had altered. Consistency bound him
to change his opinions, when he beheld that Parliament had
changed theirs. He wished that the House of Commons should
express the feelings of the people. Although the HOuse was as
wise as the Senate of Rome, or the Areopagus of Athens,, if it
did not express the feelings of the people it was not the House
of Commons understood, by the people of England at all ages.
The House ought to be the real representation of the people of
England. He appealed to the authority of Mr. Burke to prove
that assertion, and to -chew that the people were correct judges
of the conduct of their representatives in the House. He de-
dared that lie had witnessed in that House as much unwilling..
ness to attend-to-any opinions contrary-to the feelings of some
Members as be had ever seen in a popular assembly. He was
convinced frbro obserVation that the great mass of the house-
holders of England and Scotland were desirous of Reform.
He had seen„ at a respectable. county meeting, the Yeomanry
declare their-desire of a Reform. He could not, however, agree
to the motion, which,, however beautiftil in theory, would
be productive of as many-difficulties as it -Would tend to rem-
edy. The House ought to be the representation and mot the
delegation of the people. The majority of the people would, he
was assured, have voted against the votes of the House on late
occasions. That was a fearful situation, in which thecountry
could not continue long Without producing destruction.—
(Loud coughing.)—He had said that the county meetings were
sometimes more regular than the House of Commons. Per-
haps hiS 'observations were- not pleasant to some Members, al-
though they were true. He did not wish to cause pain to any
Members. He was fearful that the -small boroughs gave to
the Ministers their great majorities.' The County Members
usually were 84 on one side, and 86 on the other. The
Borough-Members were 172 on the Treasury side, and 73 on
the Opposition. Unless a more popular spirit was infused into
the House, there was. every danger that it would soon be in dis-
putes with the, people; and unable to perform the duties which
the Constitution expected from it.' , - •
Mr.-W. WILLIAMS said that if the arguments of the
Hon. Mei-ober for Yorkshire were correct, the people were now
as much Repablicans as they would be on any future occasions.
He was attached, aei he was sure the people were attached, to
the Constitution of King, Lords, and Commons. The Borough
Members were independent of constituents • that was a danger :
they might be well informed men; and therefore the system
could work well; but was-that the mariner in which a Legisla-
ture ought to be composed ? No. ',Vile Malt Tax would have
been repealed if the county-Members-had alone possessed votes
on the late divisions. The majority of the county MeMbers on a
late division on the Army Estimates,: were 32 to 22 against that
Wasteful expenditure of the public money. The House Of Com-
mons ought to have a control over his Majesty's Ministers.
With the same sincerity as the Right Hon. Member for Liver-
pool had declared, that he would always oppose Reform'; be de-
clared, that he had supported, and would- always support Re-
form, for he thought that it alone could save the country.
Mr. HONYWOOD was for going into a Committee upon
the state of the representation. (Loud cries of " Question,
question !")
The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose for the
.purpose of moving an Adjournment of the debate until to-mor-
row (WedneSday). The Adjournment was agreed to.—The
other Orders of the Day 'Were then disposed of, and the House
rose at -Half-past One o'Clock. • • •

•
HOUSE` OF COMMONS (LAST.NIGHT).
Mr. Ricuaitnsoic presented the Report of the Commis-
sioners appointed to superintend the buildmg.Of NeW Churches.:
On the motion of Mr. Hotifirs, a' new writ was ordered to
be issued for the return of a Knight to serve in the present
Parliament, in the room of the Marquis of Londonderry, late
Lord Castlereagh, Member for the. County of Down, Ireland.
Mr. CURNEN presented Petitions from certain Clearers of
the Soil, Inhabitants of Alback and Levengen, complaining of
agricultural distress.—Ordered to be printed.

METROPOLITAN ROADS.
Mr: D. GILBERT brought up the Report of the Commit-
tee on the 'Metropolitan Road Bill.
Mr. CUWWEN hoped the printing of this Bill would not
be postponed to so late a period of the Session as was intended.
He thought it would be in compliance with the wish of the
House riot to fress this Bill through any, more of its stages this
Session. It might be printed and brought forward early in the
ensuing Session.
Mr. D. GILBERT was not inclined to delay the Bill be-
yond the present Session.' It had been amended in the,CAmi-
mittee so as to meet with general approbation.
Sir H. PARNELL said, he should always oppose the Bill.
After some further observations from Mr. lloNYwoon and
Mr. CURWEST, the Bill was ordered to be re-committed on the
9th of May next.
Mr. HONY WOOD presented a Petition from certain Inha-
bitants of-Blackheath, praying that the Queen might be re-in-
stated in all her rights and privileges. Laid on the table.
. • SMOKE OF STEAM ENGINES.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said; he should have occasion to
trouble the House for a very few minutes, as-there was not a
Gentleman in the House but must be aware of the mischief
and inconveniences occasioned by the smoke issuing from
the chimnies of furnaces of steam-engines. It was not only
prejudicial to health, but was also extremely detrimental to•
property; it was a nuisance in law, but the legal process for
abating it was attended with considerable expence, the fear of
which often induced parties to remove from the neighbourhood,
even at a considerableloss. He had been induced by the con-
sideration 'of these circumstances to apply himself to the
endeavour to provide some effectual remedy. Two Committees
had been appointed to inquire into the subject, and the result of
their labours had been to establish the possibility of removing
this nuisance in a great measure, if not altogether, by the use of
furnaces on a particular construction, which almost entirely con_
stimed their own smoke. The Hon. Member then proceeded to
describe several instances in which the use of s4ch furnaces had
been successful in. removing the nuisance. Those furnaces
emitted' but -a very trifling qtiantity of smoke, and that was of a
character wholly different from" that of other. furnaces ; he,
therefore, proposed to afibrd to those persons .who might be
damaged by such nuisances, a greater facility .than.the law now
gave to effect their removal. • The provision. which he should
make for that purpose would operate chiefly by empowering the
Court, in cases of conviction on indictments for nuisances of
this description, wherein it should appear that the parties per-