The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-21 00:00:00

'...is eapitel feed frem riele, at interect, in same 6S 1v.13 partieularly situated in respect of these lewe,...-
segemerciel concern. Thus, the responsible merchants He wished, thetefok, that the Bill should be circulated
would e.-ithdraw from commerce here tee, and leave then in that country before the matter was discussed.
nieces to he sepplied by an infelier class, to the injury and Lord ALTHORP differed with the Hon. and Learned
el:relate decay of cur commerce.- . Gentleman (Mr. Sugden.) It did not strike him that the
. . ':‘,lrs.-1.4.11.11N-was ftiendly to the [Teal of these Laws. honest man would, according to the propeeal of the Hone-
" Mr. CRIPPSI. slid not °hied to 0 moderate amendment Gentlemen,: be placed under any disadvantage—on the
~..t• the system, though he did not acquiesce in all the ar- contrary, he co'nceivedthat an advantage would be bestowed 1
gumente of
,the able and Hon. Mover ; for iestauee, in the upon the honest Mart, to which the disheinest would not be
•
caee'of the prodigal - borrower of money,•ba thottette that admitted.
the d' as.. of the penalty prevented ae.ennres..frequent The SPEAKER then put the question, and leave Wag
' resos ato uetnieus money-lenders. He hoped the proposed given to bring in the Bill.
• ' s•nneelnients woulttdo some good, and ho harm. . CIVIL tt St.
. ,vie' J. SEBRIGHT thought the lauded interest meet Mr. 11U311,' rose, pttrstrant to notice, to move for.an
particulailyinjUred icy the Usury Laws. The!, made money account of the number of pensions on the Civil List., Fie
lenders demand •rito,„ „erhstentseannoitieseenassuaaseof- --seised for this actSSunt upon public principles, this the
money advanced. on- wortsi-,,gee: _What differewse was thole House might sec if the Act of Parliemsktl`tad been corn-
between inoney.ands other altos,s of trade and barter? plied with, and whether therensele
The pike of plenty. as of 9not sufficient means of
thee commodities, would, if left providing for code'ans as that which had lately occurred,
value ; and it was as absurd by drawing tni A seum
free, ultimate tin& its S.""-
se -ay that the abienee ail'.restriatien on the lending of made- from which allowances might. be
'. would leant to Unfair profit's. on the meney part of the: "tint 'iresceittl ti,l. calling on Parliament for •an sthiltioiiel
g. Ily the. 17th clause of the Act paseed in Itti2i. it
Tender, as ;it would. be to say that the trade on bread 1-,,irig
free, the seller of -bread could take advantage - WO; provided that the Whole stein to be expended ilionid_l;
of a hungry redimeed to 90.04. M. tet 'l2let tie-'ottained a return similar
man.—(llear, bear.) These 'awe. he should ever op. to that 1 ,_S., ip'''. ayea- for, and-he found the-account of the
pose, as injurious to all elassee_ bee •
--e ,mu chief to the Landed penStaSiVel'oen"the -diva List amounted
.at that time to 92,000
Interest. .. . .
The AT roP v
r-
--NE ...cENERAL, in refeeeetes 4:6
the
nitrid odd pounds. It wee not contended then, nor could it
former Billh on thst subieet ow, that the House had not. a. right to thole returns; for.
, , , said that, ttgy proposed a it had been acknowledged by sume .di; the, most eminent
interest
repeal, Went to reracee all: retstaidnasnit the rate of men that ever spoke in ' that fltruses that 'thrusters' rwhit, en Money lent on lanthee, bendis, :hills of 'exchange, accountable for .the Manner in vs theSe 'Pei-melons n•ere
''''' deists. That inea.snee tli nomplete repeal 'was founded granted. NnbAy. epulh pretend eliat the Civil 'List was
en 41. e theory that the value of money, as of other 'matters, geraiSted 'that his lilaseety might do what he pleased, with
eif trade, would loasa find its natural level. On this land- it. The money was granted. that individuals,. eminent
u theory, the advocates of the repeal held that there ought ' for ;:itikAie services, might be rewarded out of it- -He was
to'be no pattic
ular standard of interest. Now that pate- ' 'sorry, however, to find, by the return.. made- in- 1820;
. esple he toneidered most mischievous, and for that reason that there were few, very few indeed, nrob. the list,
he he'd-opposed the metione for a total repeal. The pre- . who had any claim upon it for thell• Pithlic services.—
sent motion did not-, hawever, contemplate a total repeal of They were generally* ptit thiVe as. an act of greet. and
. _ the system, but & partial alteration, for the Hon. Mover favour on the ink Of his Majesty to particular individuals
• . -propo.seei to reetiraa legal standardeif interest. Ever open to connected avitla the Government. We found upon it the
sew information, and willing to receive-the benefit of second littnet of Peers,
_of- their daughters, nay, .even e! ills
. elioughts, he was inclined to give much attention to the Bot: naughters of Dukes, and but few tef. their whose claims
Member's proposition. There were two ways otf,en.trcing were such as ought to hoe teen allowed. There was
tits: rule laid doWn by the Usury Laws for tote 'prevention that of Mr. Husfeiseon for 1,0001. to be suspended as long
of illegal interest ; fiett, by exacting the /tenuity ; secondly, as he ehontal Hold any office in hiss Blajestees Government
by getting the contract cancelled in a Court of Law, , vielaig 0,000/. per annum. As he did not know of any
. : awhereby the usurious lender lost both principal and his a iieund on which this gentleman•was likely to hove !hen
interest: There were various mercantile charge!, ;reel the') placed on the list, but for greet. public erttieee, he ascribed
question; Was, :Whether they were or were not to 'be sane- it to his claims ea that tom . (Hear, hear.) He was
tioed.: If the case were a fair one, he ViStlld gladly see sorry, however, to My, that that was one of a very few
the-laws -varied to meet that case. It was one thing to exceptions l'A Litt ur of merit. He wanted, therefore, the
. . iepeal a fixed legalitandard, aost another to inodify the rentrli i.o be made up from 1820 to the present time, 'in
; .. these •y teWes, so as to prevent that standard- from operate : 'Seeder to see whether there was not room foe any bratnSit 6:
ing- indisCriminately) andeby consequence, Unittetlys ' Ile Mr. Canning'i family to be .placed Oh that lill'ltnitead of
Ravi's eicereasepri foe, nprsing such a plan as I.:sight hare the being made a chargeon the ContO'ildated Piled. He would
latter obiget'a N.:,1,, and. if the Hen. Gentleman could now say a word eelative to the Irish Pension List, next in
-contrive' tcalseep the., principle of the Usury Laws un- anniutt to the English. In 1820 he found that list amount
a : •teselsed, "*hile he at the same time prevented those laws to /1,130/. per annum. By the Ist Geo. 4th, it was
scent pressing inconveniently upon -any class of the coat-1 'provided that no more than 1,400/.. should he grenied
snunity, he would .he content. One thing, howevec, he
.up to it iu any one year, till it cause Slam to 50,0001. un-
wished to declare, land it was, that as far at 'lie Hon, 'less that House by en a'ilthiSS to his Majesty begged that
• Gentleman e plan might go. to take awes, the: fixed legal some artivellat individual might be placed upon it. There
• standard, so tar did he feel at present determined to op. no -hi tiy the same Act to have been a return made of the
pose it, and he should not vary his opinion, unless the amount of time pensions every year e_but that had not been
Hon..Gentlensan was able when the subject was btobght done. The return lie now begged would the* hith if it
formal& for full discus-ion, to throw some revs; end strong lutd been reduced to 50,00.04,:, -the isiliether room might
light upon it. .. - ' - not be found for whit'. branch of Mr. Canning's family.
' . . 'Ale. SMITH thought that if 44e till only went as far as In looking In:Sji• the return of the Irish Pension List, as
: the Right 'Hon. the Attortreys.Generai was disposed to give gi`rd'n in 1821, he fouud scarcely any whom he could
it„ his saametion, it Might ere well not go any length at atl. consider by their public services entitled to be plaaed
The Hun. Baronet %mare the gallery (Sir ILa Htt•orm) had upon it ; several of them, howevee; at the same time
•-illisded to a case in which, at it period ealeen the difficulty holding situations of greet einoinment under the Irish Go-
nf raising money was extreme., ;the friends of the- indivi- vernment.. Ite begged to take this opportunity of saying,
duals; in dietteee had omit tb...ward to 'their relief with' a that tea had no objection to a provision of 3,000/. per au-
barge warn, to prevent deem from being compelled to aeteseta ilunt being made for
.Mr. Canning's family; but be °b-
ee the ter ms. et. the usurer. But he would ti".k Mkt lion. jetted to its being made a further charge upon the natioim
- a,i-isnet did lit not consider that there wee still iii this case in its present distressed state. tet It, it. it could, - .glue
'• 'even a loos and risk ? .'Theme wie a Its and risk 'to the out of some or, 6.3 cantle provided for such a purpose.
.
' friends of the parties. . : ,7 t 'With respect to the aiguthent that might be raieed against
:.- Sitsß. HERON rim, to explain. He begged to statu his motion upon the objection to the publication of the
• that he neverditi say. any such things What he tll4*, *as names, of the pensionere, lie thought with Mr. Burke, that
simply, that at a particular period of great 'eotentreecial die,- whoever deserved to have his name placed on the Pension
..-. tress the friends offethe Buffeters bad asonet torwasd to-rave 'List would not be ashamed of its being there.—(.Hear,
thern:fremstha.misforturtee ctnisequent upon that period (it heal litear.)—He would now glance at the Scotch Pen-
: ' distrese ; but
_that if . the t.lsut•y Laws had been repealed,' sion List. That was reduced, or rather directed to ,be see
,
tneeespemetone.would have been leftiOeheit Mier:. lehources. dueed, by the 50th Geo. 111. cap. 111, that was to bay, in
3.L. 5.1111,'H emus-nee!. lie,wase_orryt•e had Mistaken 1.810,_ to 25,0001. it being then 38,000/. That, liowevet,
the Hon, Bat•onet,..but lit contenda - that even in his cx - had. not taken place. In looking oveF this list also, he
efenation: the Hon. Baronet S., ad only shified the burthen, could not find olio person on it, certainly net ;more than
for it was perfectly evident that there were both loss and obe, when if he had had -a t ins in the matter, would ever
isle in the transaction.. H 0 could not gee that the slightest have-got there. He found there the conneetiork of Mein-
'nJutY,lvOS'lld result-trout:the, modifieatitlnor repeat of these bees of that .House out of number, some of them, too; en-
. laws.
.._. _ . , joying pensions on the -English List. There was; one
INTi••• sTiVdINSON agreed with the hon. 'Gentleman imi family, be found, who, in the space of lour years, had at
..'t `,almost leyery opinionhe had Pinnotincedeand after having different timers allowed them I,t obl. /le did not mean fo
t,. ii.t.seess'aCtively -engaged for a period tveeritY years in corn- sad that this Was done through the influence of any con-
~rv, ei;iiSaselttleafaitii, lit 'entilel.trear hint' out in all he ,said re., neutron of . that family in that House. He trusted it was
. - 'epreting.:eheSimajetrieus natures of the' 'Milli, Laeeter 'll'hee .not,;• tmt the. swipieion or itanighe arise in thaste-iyho. were
i.,,e,,,,,,vc?,825,9 was, as !the, Heicseentlithe Ile Yi'dalee- eti, ateme; aware that such thinge were done. He was confident that;,,.,., .p4iseatesy of these'' effects; a-Lillie. di'd htt hesitate to say. it three millions were planed et the tlesptesal of his Mejesty s
.': thet ei.e.Usury Lawe Updated Centetantly and unfavourably Ministers instead of two hthichid thousand pounds, ewes-
e.:▪ .freeell.thecoucerus of commercial life. - HE could not inne- sliiilinn of it would be anticipated.—(Hear,- hear.)—lmi-
ef:,',-I"aineeany thing more Sine.astrone than the 'poition in favour stead, therefore, of continuing in the present course, he
--' ' t"' these lawa, 'which, miefect, amounted to thL—that th,,, thought this ta very fit opportunity Ibr reviewing and cum- ,
a
I
87 t.' n'eti having money its hilt poseeseien, Veliich he Wits willing tailing these lists.—(Hear, hear. )—'flie total of the thin
ic),161:i.1, andethe.mati ,in .w,tl- ,)}.. and desiring to borrow lists seas now upwards of two hem died thiresend pounds,
„T.;, i 1,4 • "1191 V, .ohoubl:ht-pltentefl it oill arranging between whilst it ought to be tedLicell, according to the did-crew
;;'1:- thenz.a rate- of isact,a,st• v,,hiel, Would be adValltageoll6 to Acts be had mentioned, to 1'7e!,000/. The English and
,:i
,!,,ctila,pittiress. : This ttansirctiun sea :.,,- in its tigute, as ihno, IrLii Civil List now granted to hie Majesty, %vas, together,
iv:gee:earl tesealfy, that et..eild- take plates bettVtell Dian and roan, I >Q16,000/. , without any distinction of What went to pay
est .1114- act' time law, ithpoglid, np'“ it
,the most enormous, these penrions_and other charges, and what leant, went to .
is,zaltY saer -infliete&' under - :limy; eiectunstencee. The pay fertile expenses of his Majesty'e household, tic should
'Hernial able Baronet matter the gellcry '(Sir IL: llet•on) like the Lists made out so that It could be seen at a glance
v.,' ehed,eard that; he heated'the morlificatien of those law how much Went tiir the King's actual personal
_expenses, and
'l, !eight have- ate nufaVotiettble effect upon the landed interest.,.. hew much to the, payment of the -Judges, the Speaker el
', • tut he eoutti not 'brine' hinisclf to imagine that it would. , the House, and other public officers. ' There Was another
„
e „,, .In the , present state of affairs it 'Would not be right in point to which it would not be unadvieable to direct the at-
-4e
.!,,,,,thetrt il,they ware Vtook to the period at Which those hews tcntion of the House. The Civil List was settled in 1816,
I ie, ettereinttoduced, .or . con-Sider the 'eircuunetencee that bad when motley was greatly depreciated, but since that the
,„„Iptight it the' reign of 'Eliiabeth.• . Itil wished to remark, value of money was so much increased, it behovetl then) to
him. , : -gat there was 011 C thing in the proposal of the, lion. review, it, with a view to suiting it to time currency of the
,id eesalilover, of whichste eirl not 'altogether approve at preeent;. thne....
,Nothing could inure strongly impress upon. the
ee , tiithough he hoped the Him. Gentleman would be.ahle,,when Mouse. the necessity. of closely watching these Pension
. . the etueStion-wat discussed, to cone iqee hinithat his appre- Lista than the :consideration that time whole of ties peo-
er , • heusions swere Unfounded.' If he -understood the lion. sions paid, by the' nations ,including
.the Hail-pay List,
ea , GentiOrnanla proposal, 'it essas that tiAodje.should be. cum- aniowated to, upwards of six -millions, Dearly one-third of
: oelled to payinore than the legal interesi'M'a Court of Law, the twentrinillitms.Government.had at its distessal, after
but that there should be no penalty upon demanding umre ; the peynment of the .•interest ef the National Debt , He.
Ain] that in the event' Of .'Zin agcement at, a. highererate, thou lit the simple facts ;he had brought before theism en-
_ . : thieve should: he only an 'lioneueahle obligation to pay this- _titled hint to their support of his motion,:whit;b sits, ".that .
of
presented to his Majesty e prayagg.
N higher- rate -of mterest upon the part. the „burrower.. tot ,homble.addreas.be:
Imo;'. .Thit,;he'fettlsects'iniglit prose a tethPiation to, a_ .that there might helaid
.-ba,lor.e_,_that'..:ll
.°ll+4
..rtett,rn-s of 'the::
vise .-Pirmstysteesnicle'iic transaction,: to bring', the watter, into - a peneions onthis,Majestyi Civil List in Engtimelorp to thei
well s GAM bt-clitSV,'• knilsie iet off. the Obligation, He teiidahe: ..Ist January', :1828i stating the naMe •"of eaeleepermie; the:
xa,saftanalUshiti'.....cigtgo::ifie result, hiit,he had, net
.sets ~.yet' aMottatOf,pension, the date t.t.'Whieli•itivis'coirimineed;
keJatia °nu: e 'rift iiiia-inalirthillti' the subjeet, ind hoped the_tion. -and whether fm'S life, -or during
s?.vsa ''Aleintseenveuhl' he abibio :.;f)nvince him there was no danger.' return of the Irishend Scotch PenSiOn Lists."
di es i . ilre.CALallAFl' Nia::il-ecidedly, opposed' to the repeal . ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. shOuld'iamt
ssoil9l4thst part. of the lases-which applies to loans of money think, it necessary, either to enter into any explanatione of
:!-J e'ki'l" mw'ttettgii, 'file cases stated by the. Both Member that part of the Hon. Member's speech, in which he stated
, ;Were extretnes'aint should be reearded as excePtions, rather the amount of the pensions•paid by the country to be- six
than'exaMpleS; but stijl, if that part of ti.oste laws to which million& as he was satisfied that there was not a lember
lie tied alluded were r l i4erVed, be saw no objection to the in that House who did not know that in that stun was in-
provost! of,the'Herf: ivraiii:. • . ' . eluded. the whole half-Pay officer? pensions,- those •of
Mr. BARING was in f soldiers and
favour the principle soe
. sailors wounded in the service, the whole
upon wimiell'his inotion!v.att'founded, and hoped his Hone civil , superannuation list, as also every grant made' by.
Priem' wt,uld be abreSto.leOneiliate :the Vaxinus ;interests, the Crown, in consequence of' addresses' from that
etol so succeed in giving. Aleut
_ate bop:eyed .state, of the House, to. individuals distinguished for their civil or mili-
lew. Though he had always voted. for a repeal of the -tar) services. He admitted that they formed large sums,
tlinug'nt that t4e,propoSal,, foe a moditlea- Usury Laws, he but was sure ehatthe House, having moved the Crovvn
tiim of deem was an heiptovement upon., one Aim their- eto eg rant - theme would not :now : begs . tes basin them an,
it was well tte,athitt;the legelrate-of :nulledese-(Hear, hear.),-,-He
,looked upon thine pensions
• repeal. He hclieved
and that no 1-2iglieititild be
• interest ,Is it stood,enforced as Memorials of the. country's glory not ,to be abolished.
' ins diiirt of LOW, while no penalty wasi,aflietcd ripon any :..,._(Hear, hear.)--eAs little should•ht think-it necessary to
transaction carried one at tVhat waa I%'alled the market prise, :make . any observationsaupen:. what the.. Hon. Gentleman
m,
leas au improvemeot ellen.
a, *SePeali 'be,' had said respecting the..arrangement made letatire to
eti : li't thoUghe this e i , i
tto imittnat cases of,dia4. oh, 1110 - ; • , • , TI • H
''- uaile'iV ‘.as l'ill":4ble Lt")-..• a'respect of-axeciderset ' -''. Civil List on his Majesty coming tob the
(fit:fit:ones e
tarn -Sinuet aiiiiSe,:- a.',' for inste lice, in
„ .say that
,he,tnal 'sil id ;that . the price of ' commodities empg
.. > - tit,. see
ci !ht•eleiitierss ' rie IFUStentoan otate.naigoe ..,ought,_ to annul. the 'present arrangement,: and 'enter into
at vari rof • •
tor the estate . one see awe other. The Hon,-Member, in niiikmg that proposal
bSen ehhged to'hoeroW money ,
__and. this might • 1 • • • ':the ' • '
:eine y dul.not beat' in: mind principle on which the
of iieftarestat
.6,'es, 184 (4 .!9 P -jet!, which -would „Cant List wag granter{
a "401stiVid, •eits.,,ta et a euusequeut pet
too who . Th: - .toethe King at the beginning'. of his
,d''t"-1 : ' ):', ' ir.fl'Ad. PeriitMa ia the.country, ,
..reign,,:.e.basus on 'which it was then put was, that there
• tilt be thshee should', not. be _constant discussionsand disputes- in the
f''',.' lenge lit'ili'e true market prises mib
of his ;
e
repni as -td the amount of the allowance, or
rite e tfesk;ir into contieete highly disadvantageous to them;
1 v the necessity '''' ''''nOii ide:Ordimig te'thC pi•opesal of his Hon. Friend, t le,
allowance oats made, adepting it. to the times. So that the
.s.neel, .itritild.tretsaved froni the consequences of such contracts.
rmanente and
nut lt was' to be counted and considered
Isfel ork'all these reasons he considered Modification an 7111 •
tie necessities of the neot°dis6ussi°n by Parliarnent,"Uniess
f,roveinent oil repeal. Ile might also add.another reason;
ake application to. itferwa. should render it'neeessary -to.
it was that the iimieds of 'Hon. Gentlemen avonid be quieted 111'
al principles he begged au i'hertarite.' ' Illstatingthis...ai:
by m
•t who feared'any alteration hi those laws, se far as they
. a goner ,
..
_. . , _. . *remind the Housethat it
le was nut one aavocated .by m
anl4,tets ftlestsea but' that it.' had
, .
' bore upon Lame nf, money on' mortgages of lands, whi 1 Members ofsthmitin • . . .
tie
they were willingsupport any modification which would been upheld 'Y s
maintenance of the liberties of the
ouse,tnOst distinguished
have. einmply the effect of doing away with , the •inconye- for their
.e people. Having'
espect. Of, the ma ' ; •
said so much in r „ mt'matl, or 'rather . the
Mences on mercantile transautiOns.
entle!n
incidental part of the lion. u ave'speeidi, ',he, would
- Mr. SITGDEN thought that the meditieation proposed
himself to the immediate object of the Hon
by the lion. Mover would be infinitely worse than a total now address . That Was, in effetit;-tha:te ••
' ''Usury Laws,. mantles:4 as it would actually. Gentleman's tnotion.
ions granted out oe - h e,.Pr()." repeal of the .
upon fraud, eince the dishonest • WI duction of the list of pens
_,
t_ e t e'teivil'
co
hold out 'a. bounty
„I the Hou• ben letnan had iseeteee,d,
'' always free'iliemselves from the obligation they had incur- 1, List of Eugland, a
h could not anticipatewliat44,
- . bringing the matter before a Court of. Law, and lit by protesting.tleat e
led by ,I to takestosit. 'Motto
be propose( . ,
to
, placed under a. dieadvantage I fon it .void possibly
the lumest would. lie always . . ,
have but a *et, shOry
to repeal all the grose ' be sure. the Hon. Gentleman roost
,• his . ... ,
—For hiniself, he was well di' posed ,
..
within ieconettioWN,
inconveniences.' attached to these laws ; but he hoped th., '
i memory, or it, would have been _
er..,..0
..
ii,,,_,._,.
_...,
;louse would take time: to consider, and that next Smite, 1 it must be in that of.so mimy other it 1) Dlc,m_intullf:int,.,
brought forward. 'en introduced by himself,
some well Mettllted plan might be
until
the , , present) that a similar mon ,
,year
r two ago, had been
Mr. BRIGHT would suspend his opinion
,_
that
as:.
1: resisted at.the: time by Mr. Cleaning, in a speech
lion had been fully discussed.
Goulburn).
Mr. MAX LL wished for some delay--Scotlat.l tinted the ;very grounds upon' which he (Mr.
....,
• teal s . ..,
. . ..
.A' • ' •
'l
" PPlinie le
•
I :,..41 1e'1“1-. •,., It, ~..,1". • t 3.01$ , ,f, .14 V,.1. ,t:. t- .
1 .....,..r..1 rt:t•Eftif ifin'!l areas Iris i letto ,ar in. • •• •- ' • . a . ~...,sans _e'en:JO • \ '-'