The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-26 00:00:00

who had considered what had occurred in another place, ment to inquire into the mode in which it was exercised
could entertain a doubt but that certain foreigners had —(Cheers)—for the purpose of seeing whether or not,
had their letters opened and examined, out of no con- hereafter, there should be proper limits applied to that
sideration for the safety of the State of England, ' power, whether certain restrictions should not be im-
or of her Majesty.—(Hear, hear.) Petitions had posed upon the exercise of it, and whether rules should
been presented to the other House from divers person-, not be laid down within which alone the power could
complaining that their letters had been opened and read ever be usefolly, beneficially, consistently with honour,
at the Post •office. One of these was a foreigner of em- f exercised at all.—(Hear.) appeared that a letter had
siderable literary attainments, who was admired and I been opened from an individual did not appear to
beloved by all who knew him. It was admitted that a ' be involved in any treasonable ".concerns whatever. He
warrant had been issued fur opening the letters of one' did not mean to deny that the Secretaryt of State might
of these persons. Last night a petition had been pre- have been bound to open that letter;
heor one of the un-
seated with a similar complaint from another foreigner— fortunate circumstances of the power possessed. was .
that person had not been mixed up in the politics of this that the Secretary of State was compelled,measure,
country, but he had, unfortunately for himself, been to exercise that power in the dark. Talk oflu ais respon-
mixed up in the liberal politics of foreign countries. Ile sibility—was he responsible to the House
ha I taken refuge here, and had been well received ; but No : it was a matter of
secresy, which he could not dise
whilst here he had been exposed to the having his let close. Was he responsible to the House of Lords ?
tors examined and his secrets made known to those who, No : the House of orti s must suppose that the Secre-
if they could not wreak their vengeance on him, could tary of State. had done what he felt justified in
at least do so on his friends.—(Hear, bear.) These cir- doing. Was he responsible to the Government ?
cumstanees had produced a great feeling in the No : because the Noble Duke
public mind of this country, and he (Lord R.) could notand the other Mem-
bers of her Majesty's GotHerenment had no know-
help feeling shame, and disgrace for his country, in ledge of the circumstances.—(Hear, staces.— . ar, and a laugh.) But
which which such conduct was tolerated.—(Hear, hear.) the question was, whether, the(ptehmat words of the Act
He could not help thinking that the Noble Duke who of Parliament, it was intendedu this power should be
had done more to revive the character of this country exercised to suchi an extent ? The statute of Aloe de-
than any one living, who was conspicuous for the gal- Glared that the Post-office authorities' should be subject
lantry, the straight-forwardness, and the open-hearted- to certain penalties for the delay of any letter, except the
ness of all his conduct—(Cheers)—would not willingly delay was made under the warrant of the Secretary of
consent to make this country the police-office of every State.—(Hear.) That was the extent to which the
petty state in Europe.—(Cheers.) He hoped the Noble statute went.—(Hear.) Then, to the warrant, he
Duke participated in his feeling on this subject, and he should think that theearranft:owoasualdll flow not from the
would therefore renew the motion which he made the Secretary of State alone,. but theM'niters, act-
other night, that an humble address be presented to her ing upon the necessity of the mcase,
forwhich might
.be so
Majesty, praying her Majesty to lay before their Lord- overpowering as to form an excusethe exercise of
ships c pies of all warrants issued by her Majesty's Sc- such extraordinary power. But that power appeared to
cretary of State authorising the opening of letters at the exist without the sliitest responsibility, and in such a
Post-office. ~
manner, that he did not think the English Parliament
The Duke of WELLINGtON was grateful to the or the English people would any longer endure
Noble Lord for the expressiocs he had used with regard (Cheers.) He did nut consider this at.que6stion of expe. -
to himself, and was sensibll,of'the kind feelings of the diency or inexpediencys but a
ludesnomn of righthl anti
Noble Lord towards him pensonally ; but as their Lord- wronee—(Hear, hear.) He Amu('
ships were aware he had a duty to perform to that necessary to show that it was wrong foreretZ
he
eeosiwehveore to
House with regard to motions of this description, and exist in the person of one individual thanis
his duty was to urge their Lordships to resist this ino- think it necessary to contend that it was wrong to pickshould
Lion as not consistent with the public interests or the pocket.—(Hear.) It might indeed be necessary, ner
public security. Parliament had thought fit to entrust some extreme circumstances, that measures of ' personal
the Secretary of State with certain powers to issue war- restriction, or affecting a man's property,s should be re-
rants for the opening of letters addressed to individuals sort: dto ; but that there should be this kind of irrespon-
at the Post-office. Those powers had long existed in sibility in the exercise of the
power he nevero doubt ;for,
could agree.
this country, and ,had been exercised from the days of As to Mr. Fox, he issued such a warrant, n
Queen Anne. The Post-office laws had been revised in coming into office at the period which he did, at a time
the
;t
the last year of his late Majesty and the first year of the of the utmost disturbance, when all Europe was leagued
e
reign of her present Majesty, and an Act confirminn against England, and England was by no means at
those powers had then passed. The Postmaster-General, peace with herself, it would have been a most unwise .
an taking office, made a declaration that he would cause -abandonment of the power he possessed if he had not
all letters t) be delivered as directed, except when re- issued his warrant ttli Postmaster-General at that
quired by a warrant from the Secretary of State to send time. But it must have costeas him_ dear. What must be
those letters to be examined, in accordance with that the feelines of such a man
andbecoming Secretary of State, upon
warrant. There could be no doubt but that power had opening a private letter,
been confided to the Secretary of State, and he submitted circumstances of whic ul acquainted with
he would wish to be ignorant,
to their Lordships that the Secretary of State was bound to and afterwards meeting the
was
in private life
exercise that power whenever his duty rendered it ne- with the consciousness that he •'.
sin possession of
cessary far him so to do. Under these circumstances, secrets a-Yell that individual wouldw notwish any third
he was sure their Lordships would well consider before person to know.—(Hear.) He thought sm r. Fox must
they would ewer into any inquiry upon the exercise of have said to himself; under such circumstances,—
that power. They ought to have certain proof that this " Res dune, et regni novitas me talia cogunt
power had been used for an improper purpose, before " Moliri' et late fines custode tueri !"—(Cheers.)
they m vie any inquiry upon the matter.. With regard
It was said by his Noble and Learned Friend, and said
to the discussion of that subject in another place, he did truly, that some political rival, or political enemy, might
not know that there was any proof whatever that any
letter had been opened, except that a warrant had been succeed him in office, and then he might be improperly
- called on to answer for that which was no crime, and
issued for the opening of one letter. He had no know
ledge whatever on the subject himself, and had no ac- therefore, he must keep the warrant, which was his jus-
tification ; but, suppose, with the experience he pos-
count whatever to give upon it ; but he would submit to
their Lordships, that unless they were convinced by the sensed, he had been rash enough to transmit that docu-
ment to his solicitors, his successor in office would have
evidence before them that the power entrusted to the
deprived him at once of his defence, and he might then
Secretary of State for the Home Department had been
have been punished fur the act. Fortunately, there •
abused, they ought to resist this motion, and he therefore
" as an inconsistency in human nature, which prevented
could not consent to the motion.
The Eid of TANKERVILLE said he had in his pos- people who did possess and exercise hateful powers,
acting consistently with themselves upon other occa-
session documents which proved that the practice of
sions ; and a high and dignified character would keep a
opening letters at the Post-office was of frequent occur-
man from abusing a power to the extent to which it
nonce. He had in his possession warrants which had
was now supposed to have been abused.—(Hear, hear.)
been issued for opening the letters of all foreign Minis- But undoubtedly it never could be exercised without
tens of every rank and grade. Those warrants were
great pain to any honourable mind called upon .
issued by the Right Hon. Charles James Fax. The
to exercise it.—(Hear, hear.) But, then, beyond the
same kind of warrant was also issued with respect to the
possession of it, the acting upon it, and the using
letters of Lord George Gordon. He (the Earl of Tan-
of it, there were circumstances of concealment, and
kerville) thought this was a power which ought to be
something very like forgery.—(Loud cries of "Hear,
exercissd by the Government.
- hear.") Those things had a tendency to demoralise the
The Marquie •f CLANRICARDE said their Lord
public mind.—(Hear.) It was well known that many of
ships must have felt interested in the statement which the
the subordinate officers and servants of the Post-office
Noble Earl had just made. From what his Noble Friend
unfortunately were too much 'in the habit of overlooking
had stated, it would appear that the affairs of the Post-
the obligations which honesty ought to impose upon
office were not regulated as they ought to be, for he had
them ; and he could not think that the knowledge that
stated that he had in his possession documents of im-
the great heads of that department, and persons of su-
portence, which ought, properly, to have remained in the
eerier positions, used such a power, would be any check
Must-office. It would be remembered that the case to
upon the improper and dishonest desires of such per-
which the Noble Earl had referred was ono which took
sons when letters were entrusted to their care.—(Hear,
place at a time of war, when it was absolutely necessary
hear.) It appeared to him to be too much, that when the
for the Government to make themselves acquainted with the
Government of this country imposed upon all its natives,
correspondence of all foreign Ministers. But in the present
as well as upon those of all parts of the world, the nee
case' the individual respecting whose letters the warrants
cessity of paying them a large revenue for doing the
had been issued was a private individual, and had never
duty. of letter-carriers, that they should at the same time
been engaged in any way against the peace of this country.
retain in their hands the power of opening all the letters
In the case of Lord George Gordon the exercise of such
they were entrusted to convey.—(Hear.)
a power was necessary, because the times were disturbed, The Duke of WELLINGTON—RepeaI Repal the Act.
and the peace of the country was endangered. It was
Lord DENMAN thought it might be a very impor-
said this was a matter of confidence in the Government,
twit question whether or not the Act should be repealed ;
but they were also told that the Minister acts on his
or, at least, whether restrictions might not be imposed
own responsibilty. What was this responsibility if, when
which should leave a certain degree of power, much
a matter of this kind became known, the Minister stood
more definable and responsible than that existing at
upon the confidence that must be placed in the Govern-
present—a power subject to the revision of Parliament.
ment I—(Hear, hear.) If any Cabinet Minister got up
—(Hear, hear.) He apologised to their Lordships for
and d Glared upon his own knowledge and his own ere- detaining them with these observations ; but this sub-
dibility that there was anything dangerous to the Go-
jeet not having occupied his mind until these transac-
vernment of this country going on he would believe
tions were recently brought under public notice, he had
him.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that such a
considered it, and thought it necessary to declare his .-
power ought to be placed in the hands of the Govern-
ment ; but when it was deemed necessary to open a let- conviction that there ought to be some restrictions put
ter it ought to be signified to the person to whom the cony the exercise of this power.—(Hear, hear.)
letter was addressed, and there was no reason why a The Earl of DEVON said that from the speech of the
Government should he ashamed to do this if there was Noble Lord it would appear that he advocated the repeal
just grounds for opening the letter.—(Hear, hear.) But of the existing Act. He did not see what could be
it was contrary to all honour and justice to intercept a gained even if the warrant were obtained, for it would
man by having a watch over his correspondence.—
give no information except that it was issued, and that
(Hear, hear.) He hoped his Noble Friend would make was admitted. If the motion before the House were
some motion on the subject, either for a Committee of granted, it would justify similar motions in every other
Inquiry, or for the particular warrant. The people of case. He did not think there were sufficient grounds for
this country would have no confidence in any Govern- the motion of the Noble Earl.
ment that would resort to the hateful practice of opening Lord RADNOR, in reply, said, that after what he
letters which passed through the Post-office. had heard from both sides of the House he should not •
The Earl of TANKERVILLE explained. press his motion to a division ; but withdraw it, mean-
The Earl of HADDINGTON admitted that there ing upon some future occasion to bring it forward in
was nothing which ought to be so sacred as private con- another shape.—(Hear, hear.) In what form he should
respondence passing through the Post-office, and no again introduce this subject to their Lordships' atten-
Minister
could take a more fearful responsibility on non lie should take a little time to consider.—(Hear,
himself than by rashly, or lightly, or without necessity, hear.) He could understand why the Noble Duke
touching any letter passing through that department.— could not state whether or no this transaction was the
(Hear, hear.) It seemed to be admitted, on all hands, consequence of some intimation from a foreign power,
that this power was necessary, and, indeed, it must exist because he afterwards said he knew nothing at all about
in every country which had a Government at all. it.—(A laugh.) He apprehended that a Secretary of
When the Government, the country, or the Crown, was State would not go to his colleagues to ask them if he
endangered, such a power was absolutely necessary, and should issue a warrant or not. But after this matter had
was admitted by all. But he would go further than been discussed so much, after it had been brought for- -
those who seemed to think that anything which occurred ward in the House of Commons, and mentioned by him
abroad could not be a legitimate object for the exercise is theirLordships' House,and again debated inthe House
of such a power. He could conceive plots and cabals of Commons on the previous night, and after the great
taking place on the continent of Europe, of which this sensation it had created in the country., it was not a little
country was made the centre of correspondence, the singular that all the Cabinet Ministers except the
result of which might be to involve the world in a war, Secretary of State, who issued the warrant, -,O
and this country amongst the rest. He held, therefore, should know nothing about it.—(Hear, hear.) ee,
that it was a power that must be vested in the Secretary If any one of those Noble Lords opposite had got.:"';
of State. Doubtless, the power was an odious one— up and stated that they knew that there were sufficient a.:).
a most unpleasant one for a Secretary of State to hold ; grounds for issuing the warrant, he should have been
but, from its very form and nature, it was one, regarding ready to believe him ; but none of them had ventured to
the execution of which no disclosures could be made. say that.--(Hear, hear.) But the ignorance of the
Their Lordships, in his opinion, could not wisely or Noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty was made
properly interfere with a confidence which, it should be rather more onerous than if he had known anything
recollected, was not a voluntary and a free, but a necessary about the matter, by the attempting to justify the con-
confidence. And he ventured to assert that there was no- duct of the Home Secretary by supposing the existence
thing in the character of the present Government to call of some political intrigue between the British Govern-
for or to justify any such interference. Of course, it ment and a Foreign Power, and affirming that a Secre-
might occur that a Secretary of State was misinformed tary of State might open a letter which might lead to
or imposed upon, but whether his Right Hon. Friend the opening of a war in that Foreign State, which war
(Sir J. Graham) had been so or not he could not say, might possibly lead to the opening of a general war.
for he knew no more of the matter than the rest of their That was rather a far-fetched justification.—(Hear,
Lordships. He trusted the House would not sanction hear, and laughter.) He did not admit that the opening
the motion, but, by negativing it, assert the confidence of a letter was a slight injury.—(Hear.) One letter was
which, in all such matters, must necessarily be placed in spoken of ; but a great many. letters bad been opened,
the Secretary of State. and the practice had been going on for a length of time,
Lord CAMPBELL said, if any Member of the which would be proved before a Committee of Inquiry.
Government had only come forward and asserted, on —(lean) The letter of a gentleman might be pried
his own personal responsibility, that the interference into for the gratification of some enemy, or, as it was
complained of had been necessitated by circumstances, he surmised, to pander to the purposes of some Foreign
should have been satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) But no one Power. Thus individuals were injured, and the character
did this. The Noble Lord who spoke last admitted that of this country degraded.—(Hear.) This was a subject
he was totally unacquainted with the circumstances of upon which the country felt keenly, and demanded ta.
thr ease, and other Members of the Government de- quiry and a proper understanding.—(Hear.)
dined to give any satisfactory answer to the complaints The Earl of HADDINGTON explained.
that were made. For his (Lord Campbell's) part, be- The motion was then, by consent, withdrawn.
tween the breaking open of a letter, and the breaking The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE laid on the table a re-
open of a desk he could see no difference. port from the Commission of National Education is
Lord DENMAN—Yes, it is much worse. Ireland.
Lord CAMPBELL—True; it'was worse. The breach CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL.
of confidence was greater, from the secresy which neces- The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE moved the second
sarily encompassed the transaction. Seeing that no reading of this Bill, and explained the object of it,
na rl
enrut
he
a di -
avowal of justifying circumstances was made by the but in so low a tone olchveoicterasthtast
were
to be uyedi
Government, he thought a prima facie case had been ble in the gallery. as
made out for consideration and inquiry. There were direction of a board, consisting of the Lord Chancellor,.
two foreigners who declared that their letters had been the Master of the Rolls, and ten others, to be appointed
'
opened—one no doubt in correspondence with friends in by her Majesty s Government, who were to be such as
the Austrian states, the other with the Pope's dominions. would possess the confidence of her Majesty's Roman
Unless the Ministers declared that they had not acted Catholics in Ireland.
for the gratification of foreign governments, he could The Earl of WICKLOW e
with it because
ressed his concurrence
not see how their Lordships, with any sense of propriety, in the Bill. He was the more gratified
could refuse to inquire into the grievance complained of. it showed that the subject of an endowment for the
Could any body say that it was for the purpose of avoid- Roman Catholic clergy was under the consideration of'
ing a foreign war, that the opening of these letters had the Government. lie was afraid, however, that the
taken place? The matter ought not to be allowed to present Bill would render that most wise and salutary
rest. The character of the country had been compro- measure most difficult.
raised, and it was indispensable to the honour of the The Bishop of EXETER support h
ed te measure be-
country that further investigation should be made. cause lie thought it was but an act of justice to the
Lord BROUGHAM, in answer to what his Noble Roman Catholics to place them on the same footing as
Friend (the Marquis of Clanricarde) had said with re- the other Dissenters of the country. With regard to the
spect to the retention of certain documents endowment of the Roman Catholic Church, that was *
of importance by the Postmaster-General, when measure which would receive all the opposition in his
it
he left office, would only say that it was absolutely power, from whatever source it proceeded, because
necessary that the Postmaster-General, in leaving office, would be inconsistent with the support which was given
should retain those documents as they were his .protec- to the Established Church. He thought the grant to
tion. The warrant was only in the proper custody when Maynooth ought to be a warning to them not to end
it was in the custody of the Postmaster himself. With the Catholic Church
respect to the motion before their Lordships he (Lord Lord MONTEAGLE expressed his concurrence in the
Brougham) could not see how they could fairly call on a Bill, but if they wanted to elevate the character of the
public officer, merely upon the assertion that a power priesthood of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, they muss
had been exercised, to produce certain documents and increase the grant to Maynooth, and not rest satisfied
papers. Another objection to the motion was, that it with allowing them the miserable pittance they now re-
Veould produce no good result. He did not think that ceived. •
the production of the warrant would throw any light on The Earl of HADDINGTON could not conceive how
the subject. the operation of this Bill could have any reference to the
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE explained. endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy. Her Ma-
Lord DENMAN said he did not consider this motion jesty's Government believed the measure would be se-
as any impeachment of the Secretary of State for the tisfactory to the Roman Catholics of Ireland
brig , and as
Home Department, nor was he aware of any circum- such the Government had great pleasure illbringing it
stances which would lead him to say that the Secretary forward.
of State had acted improperly in the exercise of this Lord HATHERTON said that he was sure this mea+
most odious and perilous power • but he thought that sure would be hailed as a boon by the Roman Catholics
circumstances had appeared, and were at present the clergy of Ireland. He concurred with his Noble Friend
subject of public discussion, connected with- the exercise near him in the sentiments he expressed with regard to
of that power, which made it imperative upon Podia- Maynooth. The grant they made to Maynooth was