The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-21 00:00:00

INSOLVENT ACT.

Mr. 11. BERKELEY gave notice that, on the 11th
of April, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to
repeal the Insolvent Act of last session, and to pro.
mote the recovery of small debts.
Sir R. INGLIS gave notice that he should, imme-
diately after the recess, move for returns of the pur-
chases of land in New Zealand other than those con-
tained in the papers moved for by the Hon. Member
for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby), and extending over
the same period of time.
RIVER SUIR NAVIGATION.

Mr. WYSE begged to move for a return of the
number of ships that have come up to Carrick-on-
Suir since the passing of the Suir Navigation Act,
names of ships, and captains, and where from ; also
tonnage and how laden, coming and going.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.

Captain RODS begged to give notice that he
would, on an early day after Easter, move for returns
of all persons who had been fined for using deficient
weights and measures in England during the last
three years.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.

Mr. WARD said he held in his hand a motion of
which he intended to give notice, but before he did
so he would wish to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of her Majesty's Government a question,
namely, whether it was not customary, in moving for
a money grant, such as that of the proposed grant to
Maynooth, to first bring it before a Committee of the
whole House?

Sir R. PEEL said that the Hon. Member opposite
was correct ; such was the course pursued by the
House in all cases of motions for money grants, and
such certainly was the course he intended to adopt
in reference to his motion for the increased grant to
May nooth
Mr. WARD then begged to give notice that he
would, at the time it was most fitting to do so, move
that all further money grants for the purposes of re-
ligion be made out of the funds at present appro-
priated for the maintenance of the Protestant Epis-
copal Church.—(Hear, hear.)
UNIVERSITIES.

Mr. CIIRISTIE moved for the following re-
turns :—Amount of paper duty remitted to each of
the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge in each of
the last ten years; distinguishing the amounts re-
mitted for books in the Latin, Greek, Oriental, or
Northern languages, and for Bibles, Testaments,
Prayer-books, and Psalm-books. Account of any
annual payment to the Universities of Oxford
and Cambridge, charged on the stamps and. taxes
revenue, with the origin of and authority for
such payment. The date of the first payment of each
of the sums voted in the Miscellaneous Estimates of
1844, to professors in the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, with a statement of any conditions at-
tached to the grant of any of those sums. Copy of
any correspondence or Treasury minute relative
to the discontinuance, in 1826, of an annual vote of
1001. to a professor of the laws of England in the
University of Cambridge. Copy of so much of a
Treasury minute, dated the 28th day of August,
1832, as relates to payments to the Universities of
Oxford and Cambridge, charged on the Civil List till
1834; and a statement as to which of these payments
are now charged on the land revenue of the Crown,
and which are now voted in the annual estimates.

Sir R. H. INGLIS would make no objection to
those returns, as he understood they were sanc-
tioned by her Majesty's Government ; but he would
move, by way of addition, for returns of the pay-
ments made by the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge.

Mr. F. SHAW would move for similar returns in
relation to the University of Dublin.
The returns were ordered.

Mr. DODD presented petitions from the Croydon
Railway Company praying for leave to bring in a
Bill to extend their line into various parts of Kent.
Sir G. CLERK brought up the Customs Duties
Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time, on Monday, the 31st inst.
DARTMOUTH ELECTION COMMITTEE.

Mr. TUFNELL moved that the minutes of pro-
ceedings and evidence taken before the Select Com-
mittee on the Dartmouth election petition be printed.
Mr. PAKINGTON said he believed that very
exaggerated statements had been made to the public
as to the facts which had come out before that Com-
mittee. It had been his intention to make a similar
motion to that of the Hon. Gentleman, but as the
motion had been made, he had great pleasure in
seconding it.
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be advisable to
adopt a general rule, that the proceedings of all elec-
tion Committees should be printed, as it was some-
what invidious now to move that the proceedings in a
particular case should be printed. Points of law
might arise on election petitions which the House
ought to be in possession of. He, therefore, thought it
would be better to establish a general rule.
Lord MAHON would venture to remind his Right
Hon. Friend, as a Member of the Printing Commit-
tee, of the large expense that would be incurred in
carrying out such a rule.—(Laughter, and cries of
" Oh, oh.")
Mr. SHAW wished to know whether the Noble
Earl at the head of the Woods and Forests had any
objection to lay on the table of the House the papers
he had in his possession relative to the Ornithological
Museum in Irelani ?
The Earl of LINCOLN had no objection to the
production of the papers.
Mr. DENNISTOUN wished to know whether it
was the intention of the Government to support a
measure for preventing burial in towns, and whether
that was intended to be extended to burghs' in Scot-
land ?
Sir J. GRAHAM was not prepared to prevent in-
terment in towns.

RAILWAY FARES.
Mr. MORISON, in putting the resolutions of
which he had given notice, thought that the House
and the country were satisfied that the railway system
was permanently established in the country. It wac
needless to refer to the great advantages possessed
by this system over the old plan of communica-
tion. It was not only advantageous to the
trade and commerce of the country that greater fa-
cilities should he obtained between the great depots
for merchandise, but it was in many cases a
matter of absolute necessity. Little had
been done for it as yet, comparatively with
what might be expected, as men of science applied
their talents to the subject of improved methods of
propelling locomotives, whether on the atmospheric
principle or some other. Already, however, the poor
and their families were enabled to enjoy one of the
most useful of luzuries at comparatively a mall cost.

But it was to the commercial classes of every degree
that railroads were more particularly serviceable.
The manufacturer had thus the opportunity of com-
municating in a much shorter time with those who
purchased from him, and of transmitting the articles
which he produced at a much smaller cost, which was
to him precisely the same as an improvement in ma-
chinery, inasmuch as whatever diminished the cost of
transit must have the same effect as that which dimi-
' nished the cost of production. He could do with
much less stock, and therefore to him it was equi-
valent to so much additional capital ; and both
this diminished cost of production (as it might be
called) and diminished call for capital must be
for the immediate advantage of the public.
No class, perhaps, would benefit more than the farmers
by lowering the cost of railway travelling. They
would be able to go through the country, and in that
way see the improvements which were being made in
agriculture. The farmers of the west of England, where
agriculture was not so well understood as in Norfolk,
Lincoln, and the north of England, might visit those
counties, and observe the various means of improve-
ment which were applied to the cultivation of
the land. Why was it that in one part of the country
he was found so much less advanced than in another ?
Only because he was not in the habit of travelling
from home, and observing the modes of cultivation
adopted by other farmers. It was clear that
there must be cheap conveyance to induce the
farmer to become a traveller to any consider-
able extent. Unless the fares were lowered, the
labourers could not possibly avail themselves of
the benefits of railway travelling, but in a short
time he hoped to see the fares lowered to a half-
penny per passenger per mile.—(Hear, hear.) In
that case they would be enabled to leave those parts
of the country where wages were low, and go to those
places where labour was permanently high, or
where there was a temporary demand for it.
Fuel and provisions would be cheapened con-
siderably where they were now dear. But the
large towns would benefit even more than the
country from an increase of railway traffic. He
knew of many instances where articles had thus been
brought from a distance to towns better and cheaper
than 'hen the supply was drawn from the surround-
ing district. One case he would just mention to the
House. Previous to the introduction of railways the
consumption of fish at Manchester was comparatively
small, hut Captain Lawes had induced the railway
proprietors to reduce the charge of transit, and got
the fishermen on the coast to sell all the fish they could
take at one regular price, whether the catch was great
or small, and the result was, that the best cod was re-
duced from Bd. or Is. per pound to lid. or 2d., plac-
ing it within the reach of artisans, and the demand
had so risen as to keep a head of the supply. The
former consumption of 3f tons a-week had within the
last year given place to one of 80 tons ; and the under-
taking answered extremely well to all parties con-
cerned.—(Hear, hear.) Ihe inhabitants of towns
would also derive great benefit in the articles of coal,
stone, and other heavy things.—(Hear, hear.)
If agriculture were to be improved, it must be by a
mixture of the soils; and there was no reason why
lime and other heavy materials should not thus be
transported from one district to another at a halfpenny
a ton per mile.—(Hear, hear.) Extraordinary pro-
gress had been made in railroads already ; though the
thing itself was but of yesterday. There was scarcely
a railroad in existence which had not almost entirely
superseded the coaches and waggons. The canals,
too, were almost deprived of their whole traffic, and,
except where they were peculiarly circumstanced in
point of local advantages, they would almost cease.
To be of any use they must become the property of
the railroads, and be auxiliary to them.—(Hear, hear.)
The effect upon the coasting trade was already con-
siderable, and would be greater still in regard to
the transport of coal and other heavy articles. But
there was to be noticed also the diminished opposition
to railroads : formerly landowners opposed them, but
now they were anxious to have the benefit of them close
to their estates, and were becoming liberal shareholders.
Another reason in support of his argument was, that
the expense of constructing a railway was much less
now than formerly ; for instance, an old line of rail-
way which cost, say 60,0001., might now be constructed
for 10,0001. or 12,0001. Then again, the expense
of working the lines was much less now than
what it was some years ago, and the expense of main-
taining what was called the permanent way was now
almost reduced to a certainty. There were parties to
be found who would undertake contracts to keep the
lines in repair at a specified sum for a num-
ber of years, and he could, therefore, see
no objection to his motion on the subject,
for every day brought reductions in this respect.
The whole expense of driving an entire train was
found to be not more than the expense of posting
with a pair of horses used to be—namely, 25. a mile,
and in seine cases it was considerably less. The
maintenance of the way, again, was now reduced to a
certainty. In fact, there was enough ascertained to
enable the Board of Trade (and they might have been
quite as usefully thus employed as in some instances
they had been) to give to the public a table showing
what, according to circumstances as the traffic varied,
would be a remunerating price—whether seven or
eight per cent. interest on the capital, for example ; it
would be a great assistance to Committees in fixing
the fares. Railroads were altogether a commercial
speculation, and perhaps the most sure and certain of
all speculations ; the results could be calculated with
much more confidence than in the case of a bank, or
iron or other works, because the great numbers
enabled an average to be depended upon in the traffic.
This was of great importance; as a mercantile specu-
lation they were become about the safest thing to em-
bark money in.—(Hear.) They provided for a want
that was perpetually existing ; people must travel, and
therefore the return for the money laid out might be
calculated pretty surely beforehand.—(Hear, hear.)
All parties connected with railroads agreed that the
advantages were only just beginning to be reaped.
, Not long since the railway was considered as inteaded
almost exclusively for the conveyance of passengers,
but it had been of late applied to merchandise,
including minerals, and was daily more and more
thus made use of. But its power to accommodate the
public had never yet been fully tested. The expense
would be very little increased, though the number of
trains should be raised from 10 to 20, or even 40.
There would be the same fixed expense, interest of
money, stations, and so forth ; it would merely be the
employment of so many additional persons, and the
use of so much more fuel; and that was a trifle. The
expense of the locomotive power in the carriage of
goods was only about three-eighths of a penny per
ton per mile ; it could be done at a profit on all goods
at a halfpenny a ton.—(Hear.) The whole subject,
then, deserved to be considered ; it ought not to be left to
the Board of Trade along with a thousand other things.
Railroads were the safest sort of speculation, and their
capabilities to accommodate the public had not yet
been fairly tested. The whole question must come
before them at a future time. With regard to rail-
roads, their construction and management had now
become a great national question. They had scientific
power, and the command of iron, more than any
other nation, and ought to construct railroads more
cheaply than any other country. Yet, instead of
having the cheapest and best railways, they were
likely, unless something more effectual was done, to
have the dearest line than any.—(hear, hear.) Taking
population and wealth together, this country was the
most densely peopled in the world. France had
taken advantage of their experience and their
mistakes • and there were many things in which
they might copy from the French.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. Morison) would not dwell upon the Belgian
line, because it would be said that that was a Govern-
ment undertaking, though he thought that no answer
at all ; the average fares upon it were about ld.,
and id. per mile, but it could be worked much cheaper
than at present, for it was used by the Government
as the means of patronage.—(Hear, hear.) But he
would take the Orleans Railway. The French had
borrowed our experienced, and taken advantage of
our mistakes, and there was much that might he
copied by us with advantage. The Orleans line
was the model which the French intended to
adopt in all their proposed railways. The tariff
was about I Id., Id., and Id., for the three classes ;
10, and 5 centimes per kilometre. Ours
was very generally 3d., 2d., and ld. Now surely,
under our circumstances, 2d., lid., and ld.
would be quite an ample remuneration for most of
the new lines ; and he himself believed, that a lid.,
Id., and id., would be the common charge by and by,
if proper measures were taken by the House for in-
suring to the public the full benefit to which they
were entitled.—(Hear, hear.) It was remarkable,
that we had gone on enacting tolls to be levied in
every Railway Bill from the very first down to the
end of last session, copying probably from the Canal
Bills, forgetting that the canal proprietors were always
the mere owners of the canal, and not carriers. Those
tolls had never been levied, and, in fact, they could
not. If a person were to claim the right of using any
railroad in England the company's agents had the
power of determining when it should be, and that
would render it valueless to the private speculator.
On the large lines indeed they could hardly find an
interval for what would be called " the indepen-
dent train"—(A laugh)—the time was filled up—
there was not an hour to spare—and, of course, to
passengers it would be useless for the company to
give leave to run a train in the middle of the night.
Besides, the company would not allow the use of
their pumps and their stations and other necessary
things. Yet some Hon. Gentleman some three or
four years ago moved that the companies be compelled
to place against the stations along their lines a board
setting out what their charges were under the Act,
and this was done. The absurdity of it was evident,
because these were not like turnpike-gates, where the
charge to be made was truly stated; but this was a
charge which never was, and never could be, brought
into practice ; and yet the people looked at the boards
as if Parliament had been doing something for their

THE SUN, LOND

them the means of affording to the public the best
and safest communication, and the greatest possible
amount of accommodation, at the lowest possible rates.
2. That the clauses heretofore introduces into Railway
Bills to limit the amount of tolls to be demanded for
the use of the railway, having proved practically in-
operative, it is expedient to make more effectual pro-
vision against the undue enhancement of the cost of
travelling and transportation in every future Railway
Bill, by fixing the highest rates which the Railway
Company shall be allowed to charge for the conveyance
of passengers and goods.
3. That for this purpose every Committee on a Rail-
way Bill, introduced in the present or any future session
of Parliament, shall report a table of fees and charges,
the lowest which they shall judge to be consistent, under
the circumstances of each case, with a fair and reason-
able return for the capital to be invested.
4. And that every Committee to which two or more
competing projects for new railways may be referred,
shall require the promoters of each to put in statements
as to the rates of charge for the conveyance of passen-
gers and goods to which they are content to be limited,
and the amount of accommodation which they will bind
themselves to provide for the public at those rates ; and
that, in determining on the comparative merits of com-
peting schemes, regard shall be had to the extent and
nature of the advantages which can he thus reserved to
the public from each.
Mr. WARBURTON seconded the motion. At
first he had been inclined to sanction all the contem-
plated railways, believing them to be for the public
interest, and that they would lead to fair and equita-
ble competition. But since he had read the railway
reports which had come from the Board of Trade, he
could not conceal from himself that they must give
great dissatisfaction to all the established railway com-
panies. Indeed it was a matter of general conversa-
tion and dissatisfaction amongst those railway com-
panies, that these reports were founded upon Conser-
vative principles. That was the expression used, he
believed, by the managers, directors, and proprietors
of old established railways, when they happened to
speak of those reports. The Board ef Trade stepped
in and decided on the question, whether those capi-
talists who were going to lay out their money were
doing it profitably to themselves ? Did they act on
this principle with respect to any other investment of
capital ? Had they done so in case of turnpike roads ?
There was a turnpike road on both sides of the river
Avon, quite parallel to each other. But he had never
heard that any objection had been made to gentlemen
who were disposed to invest their money in shares in
these roads, or that they were impeded from doing so
because it woull be an unprofitable investment
of their capital. It appeared to be the de-
termination of the Board of Trade to throw
the extension of railway communication as much as
possible into the hands of the existing railroad
companies. It seemed as if a partial monopoly was
likely to be created, not only by the reports of the
Board of Trade, but by the tendencies of these com-
panies running lines through contiguous districts to
amalgamate, either by the purchase of the interests of
one company by the other, or by some individual
taking a lease of the line. It was notorious that the
line between Newcastle and Bristol was either leased
or about to be leased to the same individual. It was
necessary that Parliament should interpose some
check to this. Why not adopt the same system as
that of foreign railways, and establish a maximum of
rates beyond which a company could not go. On
turnpike-roads they fixed a maximum of tolls, and
more than that, the Turnpike-roads Act required re-
newal after a certain term of years ; but the public
had no such protection in the case of railway companies.
Extend the time of those leases even so far as ninety-
nine years if they would ; but if they did not inter-
pose some limit, the lines would fall into a limited
number of hands; and it was a matter of apprehen-
sion with him that if this should happen the result
would be that the Government would eventually get
them, and if so, then they would be dealt with, not as
a public convenience but as a means of revenue, and
teen they would be placed in the position of the Post-
office. He begged to apologise for delaying the
House so long, and to second the motion.
The SPEAKER then put the question, when—
Lord GRAN VILLE SOMERSET rose and said
it was not his intention to allude to all the topics
introduced into his motion by the Hon. Member op-
posite. The Hon. Member had introduced a vast
variety of topics, very few of which had any connexion
,whatever with the subject itself. But he (Lord
Granville Somerset) would say he was not pre-
pared to deny that error had been fallen
into in laying down the scale of charges.
It was notorious that when Parliament fixed a maxi-
mum of toll, they imagined that they were protect-
ing the country against any overcharge on the part
of the company, and not lending themselves, as had
proved to be the case to an illusory management.—
(Cheers.) lie would not deny that in some instances
the result of the present system had been, to enable
railroad companies to impose higher charges in the
carrying of goods and passengers than was fair or
just.—(Hear, hear.) But he could not help suspect-
ing that hereafter these charges would be regulated
by the same principles as those which regulated the
charges of other public bodies which undertook to
afford accommodation of any sort to the public. It
did not exactly follow that railroads running to the
same terminus were the only competing lines. A
great number of passengers looked more to
cheapness than to time, and a great number would
go round a considerable distance to save money.
Other lines therefore would exert a great influence in
regulating the. charges for passengers, although per-
haps they might not run to the same terminus. Let
them take the case of Worcester. There was a direct
competition for railroad conveyance between London
and Worcester, between two companies which were
directly opposed to each other—the London and Bir-
mingham and the Great Western. The charges for
the conveyance of passengers to Worcester would be
regulated by the competition between these two com-
panies. The proposition of the lion. Gentleman did
not contain any great advantage over the present
system. At the present moment all the matters to
which he had alluded were made subjects of inquiry
before the Standing Orders Committee. The only
material alteratiori he proposed to introduce was, the
fixing a maximum charge. Now, he feared
that if they fixed a maximum charge it would
be an encouragement to railway companies to keep
up their charges.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think
that it would do for the Committees of that House
to adopt the plan proposed by the lion. Gentleman.
If they once got into the habit, while Bills were
passing, of listening to offers from companies as to
which should carry passengers cheapest, he was afraid
that, not only would the accommodation afforded to
the public be lessened, but that serious danger would
ensue. Now, with regard to the Honourable Mem-
ber's motion, they would have to consider how far
their present standing orders were sufficient to effect
the object which the Honourable Member had in
view. Many of the existing standing orders
would have to be struck out and others sub-
stituted, for it could not be supposed that the
Committees would be bound by these resolutions.
With regard to the mode in which the Hon. Gentle-
man proposed to carry out his proposition, he must
say that all the railway Bills contained clauses carry-
ing out the proposition of the Honourable Member.
Whether they were useful or not he had already
stated his opinion, but they did state what ought to
maximum of tolls. lie
it much better that the line from London to
Exeter should be under one management than
under
thheoutghhe t principles of
the
many. As it was now, people travelled in five
hours from Exeter to London ; but he thought
it would be very different if it was in many hands.
For these reasons he would advise the Hon. Member
to withdraw these resolutions. But if he could de-
vise any other mode of attaining the object he had
in view, so, much was he impressed with the
importance of the principle, that he was quite
ready to go with him. For instance, if he would
propose some alteration of the standing orders of the
House, which would have the effect of obliging rail
way companies, before their coming to Parliament, to
lay down some rate of charges, it might accomplish
the end desired. But as great inconvenience would
arise from passing the resolutions in their present
shape, he trusted that he would now withdraw them.
Lord HOWICK said that he had heard with great
satisfaction the declaration of the Noble Lord (Lord
G. Somerset) that though he did not coincide alto-
gether in the terms of these:resolutions, yet that he
was prepared to accede to the principles which they
contained. And if the Hon. Member should be in-
duced to withdraw them, he hoped that her Majesty's
Ministers would adopt some other mode, and that
speedily, to accomplish the object at which these
resolutions aimed. At any rate he trusted that the
Government would take up the matter, and give it
their best attention, before the great mass of railway
Bills which had been introduced this session were
committed, so that some general rules might be esta-
blished to
give the advantage of cheap as well as
speedy communication between different parts of the
country, without having any check imposed upon the
exorbitance of railway directors. His Hon. Friend
ot
the
to
protect
(the Member for Inverness) had said that the attempt
to establish a maximum of tolls on railways had
proved altogether nugatory. This he believed, and
timew
thea publiccome
s against
when Parliament
the
rlialn
ex-
cessive
both for passengers and goods, to
en
charges, t
shouldth interfereugh
which in many instances they were subjected by
railway companies. It was well known that a re-
duction of fares generally produced an increase in
the receipts. But in many instances a larger reduc-
tion of fares did not produce an immediate benefit.
The income was at first somewhat reduced, and
railway directors naturally felt a great inclination
to try fresh experiments. On the Great Western and
Birmingham lines the charges were considerably too
high, and he believed that a reduction in their prices
would be advantageous to the companies as well as
to the public; for experience had shown that such a
result almost invariably occurred. He knew that it
was difficult to interfere with companies which were
already established, but he thought that in the new

protection.—(A. laugh.) He hoped that, at all events,
this would be done away with.—(Hear.) He believed
that the late President of the Board of Trade had
gone into the Committee of last year in the hope of
making some material alteration, but he soon found
that the old companies were too strong for him.
Still he (Mr. Morison) was in hopes that some altera-
tions would shortly be made ; but he must say that
the additional accommodation which had been given
to third-class passengers in consequence of the re-
commendations of that Committee were most praise-
worthy, and he was glad that the result showed, not
only that the operation of the cheap fares was to in-
crease the numbers who travelled by the line,
and so benefit the Company, but that with di-
minished fares an increase of income was realized.
He had been informed that on the Grand Junction
line there had been an increase in the third-class pas-
sengers of 308 per cent. while the revenue from third-
class passengers had increased only 70 per cent. There
had also been an increase in the second- class passengers,
so that the increase in the third class seemed to have
been at the expense of the first class. The attention
of Parliament should be directed to this subject. It
would be manifestly cheaper for the companies to
attach third-class carriages to the fast trains, as they
would thereby carry third-class passengers without
any additional power. They should certainly give
the lower classes the full benefit of the penny a mile
system. It was a great hardship upon them to be
kept 19 hours upon the road when they could be con-
veyed in less time. It certainly seemed singular
that the companies should choose to put
themselves to additional expense, by put-
ting on slow trains, solely for the purpose of
inconveniencing their passengers. The Government
ought to be permitted to give notice of revision or
purchase before the lapse of twenty-one years.
There was no knowing what might occur in that
period. It was holding out a vast temptation to job-
bery.—(Loud cheers.) In fact, the present sys-
tem held out a premium to bad manage-
ment, instead of an encouragement to good.
He then came to the question of amalgamation. It
was quite evident that they could not prevent amal-
gamation. He did not know that they ought to pre-
vent it ; but this was an additional reason why they
should be careful in their legislation on this subject.
At present, he believed that railway companies could
not be amalgamated without coming to Parliament ;
but he observed, that a power to lease and hire had
been granted in many railway Acts of late, and he
thought that Parliament ought to be very cautious
how they allowed that power. If the public were to
derive any benefit from the practice of amalgamation,
it must be by Parliament taking care that it should
not take place without a proper security that the in-
terests of the public should be consulted ; but he
thought that each company ought to have the power
to hire or lease, without coming to Parliament. Amal-
gamation, therefore, was an additional reason why
the House ought to be more careful in legislating on
this subject than they had been. Great improvements
had of late taken place in the construction of railroads,
but nothing seemed to be done to give the public the
benefit of any improvement, or any guard against the
impositions that might be practised by the companies.
He believed that they could not guard against amalgam:le
tion, but when railways were completed in great districts
of England and \Vales combination would undoubtedly
follow. Nov, with reference to this point, it must be con-
sidered that the railway companies, would shortly, in
all probability have ramifications to every town in
England ; they would command the services of the
most active persons in life—as for instance the law-
yers; they would always exercise a powerful influence
on the House of Commons ; and if the proper mode of
dealing with them were neglected they might become
too formidable in the House—aye, too formidable
even for the Right Hon. Baronet, with his large ma-
jority, to contend with. He (Mr. Morison) had
said last year that the railway companies should not
be allowed to add repairs to the amount of their
capital. It had been said last year that all reforms
were too late—that all the great lines were finished,
that all the trunk lines were finished, and that it was
past the time for doing anything with advantage; and
that as to the new lines, the small traffic on them did
not allow of small fares ; and that if these conditions
were imposed on them they could not answer. Now, he
did not exactly know what was meant by trunk lines.
He denied that the trunk lines were sufficiently
extensive—in fact there were no trunk lines. They
had no trunk lines to the Eastern Counties,
nor any to Dover. There was no trunk line to
Exeter. The Great Western was a trunk line,
to Bristol, but it could not be considered as a trunk
line to Exeter. They had no trunk line to Man-
chester, or, in fact, to . any place that
might be called a great market. Whether
they got threepence, twopence, or a penny,
he thought that the remuneration might well be
ascertained by the Committee who sat to investigate
the claims of any particular company, and might be
introduced into the special Act. The chances
were, that one-half of the present prices would
be a sufficient remuneration. An impression had
gone abroad, because 10 per cent. was generally
realised on the most prosperous railways, that that
per centage ought to be obtained from investments in
railway schemes. Where the prospects of returns
was uncertain, perhaps 10 per cent. was not an
unreasonable amount of profit to anticipate.
But it should be recollected that railways in England
were not now an experiment. They had become a
system. He thought that 7 per cent. was a reason-
able return, and indeed from the continental
railways 6 per cent. was considered a suf-
ficient remuneration. A. great deal of Eng-
lish capital had gone to France for the for-
mation of railways, and it was evident, from
this outlay of capital abroad, that the anticipation of
something like ten per cent. from English railways
was almost universal. Now he thought that six per
cent. from the old lines WllB quite up to the
mark for profit. On a new line it might not be
sufficient, but the old lines offered a security almost
equal to that of Government investments. By his
plan he would secure to the public the benefit
of all future improvements. At present it did not
matter whether the line cost 10,0001, or 20,0001., or
50,0001. per mile, the company always began charg-
ing the same fares,' whereas the remunerating
price depended on the cost. In every
other instance where improvements took place—
in iron-works, or in cotton-mills—the public always
got the benefit. Why should not the same take place
with regard to railroads. If railroad companies
knew their own true interests they would perceive
that the only way of securing a monopoly to them-
selves would be to reduce the fares as low as possible;
thus making it not worth the while for others to com-
pete with them. That was the true commercial prin-
ciple, and he was sure they might reduce the cost,
and yet get ten per cent. With regard to the Board
of Trade and their proceedings, that was a subject
which would be fully considered on a future occasion ;
but he might observe, in passing, that they seemed to
have an especial fear of insolvency, and they instanced
the case of the Eastern Counties and the Kent lines.
But why should they carry on lines which they had
reason to believe would not be profitable? They seemed
to think that new lines offered less security to the pub-
lic than old lines ; but he would observe that there
might be insolvency also in the case of the old lines.
If there was any fear of.that kind, let them increase the
guarantee, and that would be sufficient. In such a
case, he (Mr. Morison) should think it better to have
recourse to new capital to form a new line; but the
Board of Trade always seemed to think that the old
line would be able to transfer its shares, but that a
new line would be less deserving of public confidence.
The House had the power to take guarantees so as
to give security to the public in this respect. Then
there appeared to be a disposition in the Board
to take lines which were not direct lines. Now,
he thought, as the railway system made pro-
gress, there would be a demand for direct lines.
His constituents complained that in going to In-
verness they were compelled to go fifty miles
out of their way. Why should that be ? The
House would in no long time be called upon for direct
lines, and he thought parties, on bringing a project
for a railway before the House, ought to look, not
at the minor object of beating an opponent, but at
what would be permanently beneficial. He believed
he had said enough to illustrate the effects of the pre-
sent system and its evils, but he felt that they were
creating in the railway department of the Board
of Trade an enormous power, without the control
which ought to be kept over it. He believed
that, as the railway system progressed, there would
be a demand for direct traffic.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not know why persons should be bound to go fifty
miles out of their way, as they were under the pre-
sent system. If he were a director or an influential
person connected with railways, le should advise the
company not to look to their immediate profit so
much as to their permanent interest, and by that
means to endeavour to se sure their interests. He
thought he had said enough in illustration of the
present 53 stem. He called upon Hon. Members to
bear in mind that the railroad system had superseded
nearly all other means of conveyance ; whilst upon
that system itself they had placed scarcely any control.
Some Hon. Members had entered into compacts
against certain monopolies, without at the same time
perceiving that they were creating new ones, in sanc-
tioning the present syAtem of railway legislation.
There could be no doubt that by and by the railway
companies of the kingdom would unite themselves to
serve their own purposes. They had a common in-
terest amongst them, and ere long they would come
to an understanding in the same way as water and gas
companies had done in large towns. By this under-
standing they would secure to themselves a great and
extensive monopoly, and it, therefore, became im-
portant that Parliament should take some immediate
and decisive steps to avert this coming evil. He con-
cluded by moving the following resolutions :

1. That it is the duty of Parliament, in giving its
sanction to the establishment of new railways, to render

N, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 21, 1845

Bills such clauses might be introduced as would im-
pose a low table of rates; and those low rates, as they
would be levied by companies possessing in some
respect lines competing with the old ones, would tend
to bring down the rates of the old lines. Perhaps it
was hardly fair to put the new lines under less advan-
tageous circumstances than the old ones ; but it
should be recollected they were formed at less ex-
pense, and with greater probability of traffic. In
France high fares were not necessary, to secure a
fair remuneration for the proprietors. There were
two plans by which railway proprietors looked for
their returns, either by charging a considerable rate,
and depending for remuneration on their first-class
passengers, or else by very low fares to very largely
increase their traffic. They could not, as the Noble
Lord said, put up railways to auction, and knock
them down at will. Their interests, he knew, were
to be considered, but so also were the interests of the
public. This was a very material element in deciding
upon the rates which railways should be entitled to
demand. He deeply lamented that something had not
been done long before this, and he hoped, therefore,
that, though late, the present occasion would not be
lost. There was one point which had been mooted
by the Hon. Member, and which well deserved the
consideration of the House. The French lines, by the
Acts which authorised their formation, reverted, after
a certain period, to the Crown. Now he thought some
principle of this kind might be adopted with advantage
Ile would not state any particular time ; he would
give to the railway companies a sufficient time to
realise their property, but after that period they
should revert, like the French, to the State. Ile
might name the ordinary terms for building leases,
ninety-nine years. Now ninety-nine years was a
long period in the lives of individuals, but it was
but a very short period in the life of a country.
They must recollect, as one reason why he would
apply this principle to the new lines, that though
several lines had already been formed, a great many
more would, to a certainty, be hereafter constructed,
and they must look to the future and legislate for
posterity. A heavy debt had come down to posterity,
and it would be a sort of set-off hereafter if these
railway lines should become the property of the
public. Ile had always felt a facility in communica-
tion was one of the very great necessaries—one
of the indispensible requisites in a high state
of civilisation.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") They
were in a crisis of railway legislation, and he hoped
that her Majesty's Government, before the Bills now
in the House went into Committee, would take the
subject into their serious consideration, for the doing
so would, he was assured, be a great advantage to the
public.

they
nt(
ehosos
e wsi
tyrhe, l
gtedßl
oxi
hwevl
hfpeameai.
Sir R. PEEL said, this was a subject which the
more it was considered was seen to be surrounded
with the greatest difficulties. On the one hand, it
was impossible not to feel that competition in the case
of railways did not give that perfect security as to
charges which was afforded by competition generally
in other undertakings. In the case of stage-coaches
and of post-horses an effectual check was given to
high charges by competition ; for, if one innkeeper
charged 2s. a mile for a pair of horses, and another
ls. 6d., the latter would be most likely to secure the
patronage of the public. But, in the case of railways,
a long period must elapse before any check in the
form of competition could be brought into operation ;
for, if a railway company now established, and having
a monopoly, adopted exorbitant charges, a long prepa-
ratory system of concert and consideration was neces-
sary before a competitor could enter the lists. A com-
pany must be formed ; subscriptions must be obtained;
then there was great uncertainty as to the grant ( f a
Bill by Parliament; and, before a Bill could be passed,
the ►monopolising company might have reduced its
charges, and the necessity of competition would conse-
quently be materially diminished. He agreed with
the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland that it
was difficult to overrate the importance of this sub-
ject. It was of the highest importance that they
should increase the facilities of communication, and
that they should diminish the charges of locomotion.
He (Sir R. Peel) did not look merely at the pecuniary
saving to be effected, but he could not conceive a
greater political advantage—anything more likely to
improve the social character and habits of the people,
than the extension of the means of intercourse be-
tween different parts of the country. lie would make
no reference to any individual railway schemes ; but
he thought they ought to look forward to the result
of mechanical improvements as applied to those
schemes, and they might depend upon it—speaking of
ultimate results—that the shortest lines would be pre-
ferred.—(Hear, hear.) The tendency of the im-
provements which were almost daily introduced
was decidedly in favour of the shortest lines. He
(Sir R. Peel) had expressed this opinion in the
year 1839. They chose to establish a railroad
between Liverpool, Manchester, and London,
and it was thought desirable that the line should
go round by Birmingham. It was said, " Include
Birmingham by all means in your line between Liver-
; pool and London ; it is useless to take a shorter line
through a country much less productive." He (Sir
R. Peel) then ventured to predict that the people of
Liverpool and of Manchester would not be sent round
ten or twelve miles out of the direct line in their
journey to the metropolis. In 1845 it was found that
the shortest line was the best, and that Birmingham
ought not to be included in the route ; but 170,0001.
had been expended in testing the merits of the scheme,
and, without in any degree undervaluing the legal
profession—(A laugh)—he must say that so large a
sum spent in such a manner was worse than thrown
away. Now, in order to save a distance of nine miles
between Liverpool and Manchester, this new line,
making a cut from Rugby to Stafford, was about to
be established with universal consent. This ought,
in his opinion, to be a lesson to the House. He did
not wish to refer to any particular line of railway,
but speaking generally, and contemplating ultimate
results, he was certain that when they were estab-
lishing communications between different parts of this
country and between Scotland and Ireland and this
metropolis, whatever course they might now take,
many years would not elapse before the shortest
lines would be preferred. It must be under-
stood, however, that ho did not mean the
shortest line merely in respect of distance. lie
thought there was too great a tendency to adopt
the shortest lines, withont reference to gradients.
Though in recent instances unfavourable gradients
had been overcome by the construction of new en-
gines, he doubted whether there was not an unprofit-
able expenditure of power in such cases—whether the
mechanical power of locomotive engines was not ma-
terially interfered with by unfavourable gradients ;
and whether the exertions made to diminish the gra-
dients and to run as nearly as possible upon a level,
would not be amply repaid. He was elluding not to
the shortest lines merely with regard to distance, but
to the shortest lines in point of time. Though the
question of controlling the charges of railway com-
panies was one of great importance, it was encom-
passed with numerous difficulties. Suppose that two
companies undertook competing lines, and that one
of them said, " We will afford the public most ample
accommodation ; our carriages for every class of pas-
sengers shall be most convenient, and our third-class
carriages shall be constructed with a view to the
health and comfort of the poor who travel by them;
but in order to do this we must make certain charges."
Then suppose another company said, " We will un-
dertake the line at a lower rate of charges ;" surely
it was not fair to assume that a decided pre-
ference should be given to the latter ?—(Hear,
hear.) They ought not to disregard altogether ,1
the advantages held out by the former. But all
the check that was to be imposed was a pecuniary
check. [Lord Howick was understood to say,
that was not the only check that ought to be im-
posed.] How were they to provide against imperfect
vigilance, ill-conducted establishments, inconvenient
carriages, and disregard of the public comfort and
accommodation ? He did not see how this check
could be made perfectly effective in these respects.
It was difficult to say what was the proper check,
and to reconcile the difficulties by which the question
was encompassed. It must be remembered, that it
was necessary to hold out inducements which would
lead men of capital to embark in such undertakings
as railway schemes. It was very well to say, " Look
at the profits of the London and Birmingham and
Great Western Railway Companies—are they not
extravagant ?" Hon. Gentlemen must recollect the
risk of those persons who invested money in these
speculations ; they must remember how uncertain
was the return upon the millions invested in the Lon-
don and Birmingham Railway, and what must have
been the consequences to the shareholders had that
undertakingwrit-
ing i
ii l
83
i,
said,proved
~i
"It is
ifsa
trueilure
t. b a
tt Mr.be Ai'
railway CullCull o ch,
between
Liverpool and Manchester has answered, but the cir-
cumstances of that railway are so peculiar that it is no
criterion of the probable success of other railways."
That eminent man, writing only ten years ago, ex-
pressed his belief' that profitable lines of railway
communication could not be established to any
great extent. Yet the proprietors of the railways he
nhfergy deo(i
hadht
astwllcai
vstrt,attorlooohn:ußieesanl
remune-
ratebtox.
dooce i saidfpamhpner daily,
muchuaieeucapital
new
n)el
speculation was so uncertain, committed themselves
threxTmyPecbntobs ehteal
where
feevnera,
oachrl
embarked
charge
r)i
coaegeet 1
become
or, hdhetl
made them no compensation ? The Noble Lord
ii.larlairsAtmaieomiri
railways, the old companies would be induced to adopt
was by no means certain. It might happen that, on
accommodation
and, w'hil e theNvo n publicld they called
provide
inflexible
rule that, under no circumstances, should the com-
pany charge more than a certain amount of fares ?
He (Sir R. Peel) wished that the influence and
e)forhaae
of6etdowsbani
fares;
ne4rdoeaeemle
rrosycmnpeeeoeceses ' no
lost,
ltoudoorci
enterprise,srtl
boeoedtoyusn,
nl
c.
trainset ttirbhdt:
noihe think
fnaeave nckt
prescribed
when
the
result
Nthaneo,heeitaidullranNreuhn'eto:cetsoutirt