The Sun.
London, England, 1844-11-18 00:00:00

OURT OF SEWER

the payment should be delayed, it would be a good and
valid amendment.
Mr. LESLIE—The Chairman was going to put to the
Court that the sum of 2,0001. be paid to Messrs. Ben-
nett, and his amendment was to delay that order until
certaininvestigations were made. The delay would be only
till to-morrow, or a day or two longer. He (Mr. Leslie)
had no wish to resist payments for work really done.
The CHAIRMAN was still of opinion that it could not
be entertained, and refused to pat it to the Court.. -
The order to pay Messrs. Bennett the amount in ques-
tion was then carried, and signed by six Commissioners.
A further sum of 9501. to Mr. Thomas Cubitt, on ac-
count of works in part of the King's Scholars' Pond
Sewer, was then ordered ; as also a sum of 41. ss. to
Mr. J. Fluin.
Mr. Hertzlett, the chief clerk, then read a letter which
he had received during the discussion from Mr. Jenkins,
the second clerk of the works, praying leave to resign his
situation.
Captain BAGUE would wish to have Mr. Jenkins called
into Court to know his motives for resigning. He (Capt.
Bague) had learned out of doors that that officer had
been goaded into this course by an Hon. Commissioner.
The CHAIRMAN thought it would be derogatory to the
character of that Court to call upon any officer to ex-
plain his motives for throwing up his situation.
After some discussion as to " the right" of any Com-
missioner or Commissioners " to goad" the officers of
the Court, it was finally put to the vote, and carried,
that Mr. Jenkins should be called in, and that gentle.
man was accordingly introduced. His own letter, and
the resolutions of the Court were then read, and to
questions from Captain Bagac as to his motives for re-
signing, Mr. Jenkins replied, with great naivete, that he
had got a better situation, and had accepted it.
Mr. LESLIE had not replied to the remarks which had
been made t y Hon. Commissioners, but now that they
had had Mr. Jenkins's answer, he would ask those Hon.
Commissioners if they had meant him (Mr. Leslie) as
the person who had goaded that gentleman on to resign.
The question was unanswered, and the subject dropped.
A letter was then read from the Holborn and Finsbury
Commission, expressing its satisfaction at the resolution
come to by the Court of Sewers for Westminster re-
specting the depth of sewerage on the new line from
Long-acre to St. Giles's.
Mr. WILLOUGHBY moved that a resolution should be
placed on their minutes, disclaiming the inference that
seemed to be drawn by the neighbouring Commission,
namely, that that Court, in consenting to the increased
depth of sewer, had only a desire to consult the interest
of that Commission, without any regard to the wants of
the ratepayers In !Westminster. He was the more
anxious that the Court should express such a resolution,
lest the concession should be urged as a precedent at
any future time.
Mr. BEECH seconded it, and the resolution was ordered
to be entered on the minutes.
The CHAIRMAN then directed attention to the neces-
sity of taking some measures for the immediate re-con-
struction of the defective parts of the Ranelagh sewer in
Gloucester-road, Paddington, which had been already
ordered, under the superintendence of Messrs. Tite and
Rennie. He had hoped that contractors would have
been named by that time, but as the parties had declined
shouldto ae pt i
rteheet
m works,r. j a )i,t,
ad
appeared a
et ot hr i
eme tthhaet th a that
eastern Court
western divisions, to proceed with the sewer, under the
supervision of those gentlemen. If the matter were fur-
ther deferred, at least a delay of a month would take
place, and rather than such should be, he thought they
might with great propriety make the offer to Mr. Jay.
A letter was read from that gentleman, offering to do
the works in the remaining districts at the same rate tha
he did the eastern and western.

Mr. LESLIE thought that the letter was read in the
wrong place. It ought to have been reserved until the
subject of the contracts on the Ranelagh and Counters'
Creek was taken into consideration. The letter of Mr.
Jay had reference to the districts, and not to the parti-
cular work in the Gloucester-road.

Mr. GUTCH said that the property on the line of
sewer was greatly injured in consequence of the delay
in re-constructing it.
Mr. WILLOUGHBY was, under the circumstances of
the case, disposed to adopt the plan suggested by the
Chairman.

Mr. BAYLIS had heard that there was a report in one
of the newspapers, that the state of the Counters' Creek
sewer was exceedingly dangerous, the body of a man
being found in one part of it, and a carriage and horses
in another.

The CHAIRMAN supposed that the report had arisen
from a person having incautiously driven a gig into it.
It was determined to re .consider the subject after dis-
posing of the question of contracts for the districts.
The CHAIRMAN having introduced that subject, and
Mr. Hertzlett having again read the letter from the con-
tractor, Mr. Jay,
Mr. LESLIE rose for the purpose of proposing that that
Court should adopt the plan pursued by the Holborn and

HOLBORN DIVISION.

i 1 Z. 3, ' ,i 1 i 48
4 - d 14
.a t .4 ow 4
0,4
.S
PLACES. 1 cs. 4'6) Ili h t and Lowest Tenders. ta '" lc ;), g4' 4' Side entrance. 1--1 ;=1
z g gas B-ti t. -.t Total. 4'2 1 g
a E ...f:1
E. 2,) 44E vs 4,5,, 'l' c,.. 4
p„ 3 P 4 4
,-_,.
£ s. d.
:
Great Russell-street and Mu- } , 1,230 0 0 Ft. In. £. s. d. £s. d. £. s. d
I s.
d.
seum-street
Kentish-town-road and Grafton- ii ' 4,915 0 0
place 2,881 0 0 Cotsworth. 3,465 ••• 5 12 20 26 0 2,881 0 0 Tunnelled. 2,881 00 16 73}
443 0 0
Hatton -garden 7 319 0 0 Green. 400 none None. 618 0 319 0 0 None. 319 00 15 114
Chary enc -lane
(Contribution 3501. by Inn) ,:f3 938 810 Hill. ••••
1,320 1 and 1 lowered 10 12 19 0 933 810 121 7 2 1,054 16 0 15 ni
New-road and Seymour-street ~, 14,250 0 0 •••
' ' 3,188 0 0 Ward and Son. 2,750 600 3 8 22 24 0 3,188 0 0 104 0 7 3,292 0 7 19 n
Charlotte-street and Bedford- 10
1,330 9 0
square BOO 0
00 0 Cooper. ... 1,380 2 2 8 16 6 800 0 0 219 2 802 19 2 11 8
142
King's-road, Gray's Inn
(11s. 6d. per foot contribution) Q `-' 392 0 0 Mutter.
... 786 1 1 2 12 0 392 16 2 None. 392 16 2 10 0
FINSBURY DIVISION. ,
'
Macclesfield-street South ( 8 535 0 0
460 0 0 Ward. ••• 700 1 2 10 12 0 474 0 0 None. 74 0 0 13 ai
Battle-bridge and Holloway- tl2 2,230 0 0
road....
1 823 0 0 2 6 2 16 0 1,246 12 6 None. 1,246 12 6 911
Collier-street, Pentonville ...... 13 973 12 0 Medworth. ... 1,480
1391 0 0 2 8 8 17 0 973 12 0 50 6 3 1,023 18 3 13 10,
,
Hall-terrace and Windsor-place 12 6,97 6 9 Medworth.
4,683 0 0 ... 1,150 1 3 16 12 0 697 6 9 None. 697 6 9 12 li
Pitfield-street 7 3,190 0 0 Bennett. 3,440 1
490 0 0 580 3 5 30 18 0 3,190 0 0 ••• 3,806 4 7 18 64
Great Cambridge-street ......
High-street, Islington
771 0 0 James. G3O 230 1 3 10 18 0 771 007616 11 847 16 11 19 ,8,
Parkfi 566 0 oeld -street, Islington
Battle-bridge and Holloway- r 275 0 0
0 2 15 0 211 0 0 None. 211 0 0 12 5'
road ' 211 0 0 Threadgold. ... 340 1
Baker's-row 1 3 290 0 0
250 0 0 Johnson. ••• 300 1 2 4 16 0 250 0 0 21 7 6 271 7 6 18 1
3
Brick-lane
,
12,185 15,531 31 81 181 21,224 6 9
12,185
-...„

27,716

£21,224 6s. 91

-.= 151

is. 3d.

per foot

real, includinj

1g every exp,

* Uncle]

!rpinning

00 feet of old Sew,

To a question from Mr. Barry Baldwin, M.P.,
Mr. LESLIE said that Mr. Roe, the surveyor to the
Court of Sewers for Holborn and Finsbury, drew the
plans, &c., and furnished an estimate of the expenses of
any projected new work to that Court. A very important
work, 28 feet deep, part of which was to go under the New
River, was estimated for by Mr. Roe. When the tenders
came in, however, none of them were within 3001. or 4001.
of Mr. Roe's estimate. The Court said, " Mr. Roe, your
estimate must be wrong.l &None of them can do the
work for what you say. How is that ?" Mr. Roe re-
plied, " Gentlemen, I canhot help that ; but the work
can and will be done for that if you order it, and make
the contractor for the division, who is bound to do so,
supply you with materials and labour, and so forth."
Well, then, Mr. Roe completed that work at 100 L less than
his own estimate. Let them, then, observe the advantages
of that plan. They had correct details before they
began the work they had plenty of time to
consider what they were to do and having
agreed on a thoroughly digested plan, it was open to the
whole community to propose for the work in question.
He (Mr. Leslie) was quite charmed with their specifi-
cations. He had them beside him, but would not tire
the Court any further. Let their surveyors in like
manner give detailed plans, and an estimate of the ex-
penses in each work. He would make no observation
then upon their late contractors, but when he saw the
Messrs. Bennett tendering some seven or eight times for
works in the Holborn and Finsbury district, although
only accepted twice, it proved to him, that if, as had been
said in this Court, they had ever burned their fingers,
they seemed very anxious again to return to the same fire.
The CHAIRMAN hoped that Mr. Leslie would conclude
with a resolution.

Hon. Commissioner; and why then, he asked, should they
again renew that discussion ? Then with respect to the
two districts already disposed of, it was out of the power
of the Court to adopt the motion put on the table by the
lion. Commissioner. Let them wait a year to give the
system lately adopted a-fair trial, and he would then be
as ready as any Hon. Commissioner to try further improve-
ments ; but he could not consent to overturn all that
they had so lately created. Any further discussion of
the matter then would only have the effect of distracting
the Court, and wasting the public time. The reason
why contractors did not come to that Court was simply
because they were afraid that some Hon. Commissioner
might come down, and take from them the very marrow
of their contract.—(Cries of " No, no," and " Hear,
hear.") He said, yes, those gentlemen were afraid,
and with good reason—he did not blame them—that
the Court would play them a trick, and they said,
" When you pretend to give us a whole district, you
only give us the dirty part of it." They had, he re-
peated, come to a decision on the subject of Mr. Leslie's
motion, and although three contractors had been already
scared, he was glad to find that Mr. Jay was not, and
would take that from which the others shrunk in dis-
may. He had not been an advocate for the plans which
had been lately adopted, but having been onceladopted,
in the name of common sense, let them give them
a fair trial. The Hon. and Learned Commissioner con-
cluded by moving that Mr. Jay's proffer be accepted.
It was seconded by Mr. GuTcH.
Mr. B. BALDwaft, M.P., would endeavour very suc-
cinctly to reply to the Learned Commissioner (Mr. Wil-
loughby). The Hon. and Learned Commissioner had
said that it was out of the power of the Court to make
any alteration.
Mr. WitiLOUGMBY thought the Hon. Commissioner
mistaken. He did not say " power."
Mr. BARRY BALDWIN had taken down the words. The
next thing was as regarded time. He thought that time was
most opportune, for the form of the sewer had no-
thing to do with the Hon. Commissioner's (Leslie'a)
resolutions. The form was nothing ; the contract could
still be entered into in the manner desired by the Hon.
Gentleman. He proposed that he should merely take
the work in the block instead of piecemeal. He pro-
posed that details should be placed on the table, and
that contractors for the works should view them. The
Hon. and Learned Commissioner said " Let us go on
for one year." He (Mr. Barry Baldwin) was a young
member of that Court, but, as far as he could see, the
thing had been gone on with too long already on the old
system.--(Bear, hear.) Delays were dangerous, and it
might be said at the end of that one year, " Oh, let us
go on for another year" and so they would never attain
nearer to perfection. If a gentleman wished to build a
house he would not contract for its being done piecemeal;
he would contract with some one to build it out for a
certain sum, and so they might do there.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought that the very best time for the Hon. Gen-
tleman's motion. Ho (Mr. Baldwin) had never spokeli
to the Hon. Commissioner (Mr. Leslie) on the subject
before, but his resolution did certainly appear to him
feasible and worthy of support, and he should support it
therefore. They might depend on it, they would always
find men—respectable men, too—ever ready to accept
their contracts if they only gave them a fair and reason-
able remunerating profit, and that could be done as well
in the block as by piecemeal. Let then}adopt the plan
proposed at least•in one division, and see how ft did there.
The system might be new, but if it promised to be of
use to the rate-payers they should try it.
Mr. BEECH quite agreed with the propositions so ably
laid down by his learned friend Mr. Willoughby.

Mr. WILLIAM DONALDSON, the Chairman's brother,
followed on the same side. The question had
been mooted at the former meetings of that Court,
and argued with great ability by the Honourable
Commissioner (Mr. Leslie). It had then been set at
rest, and it was quite impossible, he thought, that the
public business could be carried on, if on every fresh
opportunity the question were started anew.
After some words from Mr. Baylis and Mr. Chambers,
The CHAIRMAN went at considerable length into the
merits of the question. He contended that the
law binding on the Holborn and Finsbury Com-
' mission was in effect the same that guided that
• Court. But that very contract was essentially, and in
principle, like Mr. Leslie's, for he admitted that they
must have a contract for " job work," and every item in
these particulars was likely, at some time or another, to
be called into requisition by these same job works. The
Hon. • Commissioner had thought; proper to bring for-
ward that inforMation, in order to induce them to'accede
to his resolution, but lie (the Chairman) greatly doubted
the correctness of the Hon. Commissioner's figures ;
they were certainly very puzzling, for they were not
classed so as to enable one at once to see what sewers
were cheap and what dear ; and he was the more doubt-
ful of their correctness when he saw some second class
sewers charged more than others of the first class. He (the
Chairman) knew many persons who were losers from taking
jobs by the lump without being well advised what they
were doing, and the consequences were that the sewers
were made from the pockets of private individuals, than
which he knew of nothing more dishonourable, more
cruel, more ungenerous.
Mr. GRIFFITII6---HOW are contracts for churches taken?
The CHAlRMAN—Churches were built under that
system ; and it was most revolting and iniquitous that it
should be so. They ought, between man and man, to
give a fair price for the work of his hands, for the sweat
of his brow—and not to take steps which might even-
tually involve his ruin. The Hon. Gentleman then went
on to argue that works taken at low contract prices, as
in the Holborn and Finsbury district, could not be well
done, for the men were inclined to "shirk" the
work, and the whole system induced a sort
of antipathy between the officers of the Commissioners
and the contractor's workmen. He thought that by ac-
cepting Mr. Jay's proffer they would be saving, as he
was lower than the lowest of the three candidates who
had resigned the contract for the district. It was sin-
gular, if Mr. Leslie's figures were correct, that these
men, who would bo enabled to make a fortune by their
contract prices, should so readily let it slip through
their fingers. He thought it furnished another proof
that the Hon. Commissioner was mistaken.
Mr. LESLIE shortly replied. It had been said that it
was he who had induced the contractors to resign their
contracts. It was not he, for unfortunately he was ever
in the minority in that Court. But it was of the majo-
rity they were afraid, for they could not confide in the
honour of the majority of the Court, in which he agreed
with them, and from a dread of that majority,
they had given up the contract. His own opinion
was, that all the works in the district could ho legally
claimed by the contractor ; but their legal adviser said
no, and their Chairman said no also. He had done his
duty in bringing the matter before them, and he now
left it in their hands.
The amendment and the original motion were then
put, when the former was carried by a majority of five.
Mr. lIERTZLET, the Chief Clerk, intimated that he
should be ready with a precept for a new rate on the
Western Division at the next Court.
The Court then adjourned.

Mr. LESLIE, after a few words, concluded with a reso-
lution to the effect, that all works in the Ranelagh and
Counters' Creek district, excepting small day jobs, should
be carefully estimated, with prepared plans and sections,
including every expense, such as side entrances, gullies,
&c., and that all works done should be the subject of
particular contract, invited by public advertisement.
The Hon. F. BYNG seconded the motion. He with
pleasure supported a resolution which would throw open
their works to general competition. He was very glad
to find himself in a position to sign his name to the pro-
position of the Hon. Commissioner.
Mr. WILLOUGHBY, while giving the propounder of the
motion credit for the industry he had evinced in bring-
ing such a mass of evidence before them, could not yet
help thinking that that evidence had been brought for-
ward at the wrong time. He felt sure that a shrewd
man like the Hon. Commissioner must be aware that the
end and aim of all talk was to come to some conclusion,
but that seemed to be another instance of the faculty which
the Hon. Commissioner seemed to possess in such a great
degree, namely, the bringing of a proposition forward
at the wrong moment. The Hon. Commissioner tried
to show that by adopting the llolborn and Finsbury plan of
contracting for their works that Court would derive a
certain benefit, and that a beneficial result would also
accrue to the rate-payers. But the Court had come to a
conclusion upon the subject before that day. It had
altered the form of sewers after a long discussion. It
4a4 already received public tenders, and already dis-
posed of tWo of the districts. The Court, therefore,
ought to give the system it had sp very lately adopted
a fair trial. Let them not then occupy the time of the
Court by again considering that which had been so fully
discussed before. Not long ago when Mr. White's
motion for an alteration in the form of sewer was before
them, the subject of adopting the egg shape, as in the Hol-
bpra and Finsbury district, had been fully suggested by the