The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-23 00:00:00

partreent, who asked whether they would apply the axe i by the superior economy, energy, and management of the
to the root of the commercial be-reatness of the country? people of this country. All that had been cone consis-
His Noble Friend talked of applying it to the root of the ' tently, with a gradual and steady amelioration, such as
moral evil ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman altered the the present Bill offered, in the condition of the
application of the expression as used by his Noble Friend. younger branches of the community. He believed
But was it possible that the commercial greatness of this that the worst enemies to the country generally,
country depended on keeping children at work twelve and above all to those operative classes which were de-
hours, instead of ten? In 1833 a gentleman, in whose serving of their best regards, were those nho, through
political sentiments he did not coincide—the late Mr. mistaken zeal. would allow themselves to follow blindly
Cobbett—said he had heard of the greatness of the coun- any impulse of humanity, without having carefully con-
try depending, on some occasions, on the learned pro- sidered its consequences.—(Cheers.) He firmly be-
fessions, on °fifer on able statesmen ; but he had never lieved that they were doing all that they could to de-
before heard of its consisting in working little girls two prive the operative classes of this country of that which,
hours a day. He could not see, as stated by the Right more than charity or legislative protection, constituted
Hon. Gentleman, hOw a diminution of 25 per cent. their real good—he meant the commercial prosperity of
would result from a remission of one-sixth of the labour. that country.—(Cheers.)
—(Hear, hear.) He could not see how the diminution Mr. BROTHERTON said that this question had
could amount to more than the diminution of time.— agitated the country for twenty-eight years, and it was
(Hear, hear.) Even if it were the fact, which he did high time that it should be set at rest. He certainly
not believe it was, that the manufactures of the country concurred with the Noble Lord the Member for Dorset-
would be perilled by the ten hours' system, yet he was shire as to the limit of ten hours. He might be mis-
not prepared to say that the moral aspect was not to ne taken in his view, which perhaps was contracted on
preferred to the commercial one.—(Hear, hear.) the subject, but still he thought that humanity, morality,
When they were told that the children were brought and sound poliey, supported his vie*, and on those
up decrepit and depraved, he doubted whether the corn- grounds he justified the vote which he had given the
mere al view should not give weight to the consideration other evening, and which he was prepared to renew
which would remedy this state of things.—(Hear.) If on the present occasion. And he thought there was a
there was a loss in wages to the workmen he would departure from principle in legislating upon this subject.
make it up to them by more healthy and vigorous con- He was of a different opinion from the Inspectors of
stitutions and by a higher tone of moral feeling.— Factories, and others well acquainted with the matter were
(Hear.) It had been asked how the workmen were to of opinion that human labour in connection with machinery
live. He would say there was no danger of starving in was not free labour. Besides, they had already inter-
this country.—(" Oh, oh," and Hear, hear.) He be- fered. Before there was any legislative interference it
lieved that those who received the highest wages were was customary for factories to work fourteen or fifteen
not the most moral or the most provident.—(lronical hours a day; and. Lord Kenyon, in the year 1819, stated
cheers.) He had only stated what he had been told. in the House of Lords that the factories of Lancashire
His object would be to put every person on such a foot- worked fourteen hours and a half a day. Thus, when
ing that pie might get as good wages as he could.— there was no legislation there excessive labour was car-
(Cheers.) That met with a general assent, and it ought vied on. It was said, too, that if trade was perfectly
to be the object which every wise legislator should have free and unrestricted in factories, there would be no de-
in view. The present system had been productive of a mand for legislation. Why, in the years 1835, 1836,
vicious state of society. Men were now supported by their and 1837, when trade was rather brisk, there were no
wives and children, which induced them to make early less than 3,000 convictions for infractions of the Fac-
marriages. He thought great confusion had been intro- tories Act, and the penalties paid amounted to 6,0001
duced into the debate, in consequence of the course Even now, at the present moment, they found females
adopted by the Government. The decision of the and married women working fourteen hours a day. It
House of Commons had been already twice come to on was said that it was wrong to lay any restrictions upon
the subject, and if the Government had a majority on labour. He reminded Hon. Gentlemen that a restyle-
the present debate, there would be two conflicting deci- tion was laid on labour in one case, at least, by the very
sions. A 'case better decided he did not know in the highest authority, " Six days shalt thou labour, and on
course of his Parliamentary career. They now sought to the seventh thou shalt rest." That was a law directly
change the opinions of their usual supporters, but not opposed to the political economist.—(Hear, hear.) If
a single independent supporter of the Government they carried out their principle to its highest extent,
went with them on the late decision. and if they found that fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen hours
. _

Mr. CARDWELL said that he had endeavoured to
possess himself of the real merits of the question now
before the House, and although he had not the good for-
tune of coming to the same conclusion as the Noble Lord
(Lord Ashley) and could not,, therefore, give his vote on
what he knew was the popular side of it, yet he begged
to assure the Noble Lord and the Committee that the
main object present to his mind in coming to a sound
conviction on the subject, had been not to come to any
conclusion which would impede the growing prosperity
of the great operative classes of this country.—(Hear,
hear.) In reference to the public this subject had been
remarkably divided into two sides, one sustaining the
commercial view of the subject, and the other resting
almost entirely on the basis of humanity and morality.
An Hon. Gentleman adopted an illustration which he
believed was not new from him ; it had been taken he
believed from the classical historian of Manchester, who
said that those engaged in manufacturing pursuits
"passed through the fire to Moloch, and through filth to
Mammon." Such was the language addressed to those
who felt called on by their convictions to vote against
him on this subject. He did not deny that it
was possible to take the commercial view of the
subject alone, and that there might be sordid men, who
would extract as great an amount of wealth as they could,
regardless of the sufferings of ethers. He admitted that
such a view of the case might be taken, but he denied
that it was possible, from the nature of the case, for any
person who looked at the subject with judgment, and
applied his mind firmly to its consideration, to leave out
the commercial view of the subject altogether, and rest
it solely on morality and humanity.—(Cheers.) Was it
possible for persons who had the least experience on the
subject, or who, having no experience, possessed an or-
- dinary capacity, and applied it diligently to the consi-
deration of the case, to take a view regarding solely the
physical :and moral well-being of the operative, and
leaving out from his consideration the commercial view,/
which so deeply affected the interests of the operative
classes themselves ?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the!
House to consider how largely the operatives of the coin
munity were benefited by the prosperity of British com-i
merce.—(Hear, hear.) In proportion to the resultsj
affected by it, how trifling was their most extensive!
charity?—(Cheers.) In proportion to it, how meagre
was their best contrived legislation? He said, there-
fore, that to talk for a single moment of taking ,
the view of the question apart from commer-/
cial considerations, and resting it on the basis
of humanity and morality, was not becoming
the dignity of the House of Commons.--(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He begged of them to beware, lest, by
opposing a Ten Hours' Bill, they might not give occasion
to those for whose benefit he knew it was intended most
to bitterlyrue it.--(Hear.) In legislating on this subject,
there were two objects which they must be most desirous
of combining. One was that they should give really
efficient protection to those who, from their tender
years,- were incapable of protecting themselves ; the
other was, that they should leave free as the winds
of heaven, to the judgment, management, and economy
of th 6 individuals themselves, the labour of those who
were capable of protecting themselves—(Hear, hear)—
that labour which, as had been so often observed, was
the only property they possessed.—(Cheers.) He
found that her Majesty's Government, in the Bill which
they had laid on the table of the House, endeavoured to
effect these two objects—the protecting of those who
wanted protection, and the leaving of freedom to those
who were capable of protecting themselves.—(Hear.)
He did not think that to effect those two
objects was wholly incompatible. The best arrangements
which could possibly be made was that which would
combine those two objects. They had endeavoured to
limit the hours of labour for children to such an amount
that after devoting sufficient time to labour they would
be 'able to employ the remaining hours of the day in
securing a good system of education. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had spoken of a system of relays. Now he (Mr.
Cardwell) had to complain of the caution which was
observed in speaking of the subject of relays. Were
they driving at a uniform Ten Hours' Bill?—{Hear.)
That was a question which pressed itself very much on
his mind in considering the subject. He might be told
that the Noble Lord had said nothing about relays. If
he (Lord Ashley) intended that relays should be corn.
bined with a ten hours' system, he had no right to say
that he had the feeling of the large body of the mill-
owners with him. He (Mr. Cardwell) knew that many
persons who came here in deputations said that what
they wanted was a uniform Ten Hours' Bill.—(Hear.)
Were they prepared to put this in practice?—(Hear.)
Let them take care that they would not leave the great
proportion of the children in this country in a touch
worse position than they were at present.—(Hear.)
He should be extremely reluctant to cast the slightest
aspersion on the motives of any individual, but he must
say he honestly believed that the persons in that House
who advocated the view of the Noble Lord the Member
for Dorsetshire, did so with the utmost sincerity and the
purest philanthropy, but at the sanie time they deceived
themselves. He begged them to consider what
would be the effect of a Ten Hours' Bill.
The effect would be that the adults would do
less and the children more work. Of the wages
earned a larger portion would be screwed out of the
sinews of the young than from those of the adult. That
was a result against which, on grounds of morality and
humanity, the Committee was bound to guard with the
utmost possible vigilance. In seeking for a Ten Hours'
Bill they were not seeking for a practical measure, and
true humanity was always practical. The proposal,
therefore, which was now brought forward, with no doubt
the best intentions, was not founded upon true humanity.
On the subject of reduced wages he had heard most
strange doctrines.—(Cheers and counter-cheers.) From
the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last he
was at a loss to learn whether he thought low or high
. wages better. The conclusion which he (Mr. C.)
should have drawn from the Hon. Gentleman's observa-
tions, if he were allowed to apply to them the common
principles of logic, was, that in low wages, there was a
protection against profligacy and improvident
management (Opposition cheers and laughter).—
and that they would promote the social virtues
in a very great degreo—(Hear, hear)—and that
they were a great good:which the House in its wisdom
should take upon itself to effect. But he was astonished
to hear the Noble Member for Dorsetshire speak of
wages as if they were measured in direct mathematical
proportion to the number of hours during which the
operative worked.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon* Gentleman
weretleman
'who spoke last made the same mistake.
measured by a different standard. They were
paid out of the profits of the establishment.
Without profits there could be no wages, and
unless a set of philanthropists were found to under-
take the trade and commerce of the country, it must be
assumed that there should be some profit. Then it was
quite clear that if they took away part of the profit they
took away from the wages. They had it from high
authority, that the reduction in wages would be 25 per
cent., and he (Mr. C.) had no hesitation in believing that
it would reach that amount. Another question which
Hon. Gentlemen forgot was, that of machinery. In
these days- of improvement, machinery, if not worn out,
became useless, and was obliged to be renewed in a few
years. This part of the subject, however, he only ad-
verted to in passing. The Hon. Gentlemen who spoke
last talked of workmen being repaid for the loss in their
wages by an increase of health. Now, his expe-
rience showed him that when there were low
wages, there were also always numerous complaints
of suffering • and though they had often heard of com-
binations doperatives to obtain a fair day's wages for
a fair day's work, they had never heard of combinations
to enforce short hours. Besides, it was to be borne in
mind that the operatives who petitioned in favour of ten
hours were under the impression that the Noble Lord's
proposition would be carried without any reduction in
wages at all ; and that Manchester was placarded with
the words " Less work—more wages—sign for the Ten
Hours' Bill!"—(Hear.) That fallacy was very common.
If they thought that we had nothing to fear from fo-
reign competition they were greatly mistaken, and they
would find eventually that under the name of humanity
they were inflicting a great cruelty on both operative
and master. The commercial prosperity of this country
was owing to the paradox, that the master manufacturers
paid the lowest wages, and that the operative received
the highest wages that any master paid or any operative
received in the world. Strange as that might seem to
be, it was perfectly true; and the explanation was this,
that the master paid more money, but got a greater
amount of work, while the workman received so much
more money as to enable him to live better than any
other operative in the world, That was brought about

per day did not enable them to compete with foreign nit,
tions, they must then work on the seventh day. Ten
hours a day he thought was sufficient for man, woman,
or child, and with that length of time it would be found
that the business of factories was quite healthy.
He was sure that if all worked a moderate time they
would have nothing to fear from competition. He
might, perhaps, have somewhat different views to many
on this subject. He might, perhaps, make admissions
which would be laid hold of by those who went for inter-
minable labour. But he did not care for that. He ad•
milted that if they decreased the hours of labour they
must increase the cost of manufactures. But, then, the
question was who was to bear this ? He had seen a
calculation with regard to a particular mill as to the
amount which would be lost in consequence of the reduc-
tion of the hours of labour. Therefore, admitting that
there would be a reduction in the amount of wages, it
was necessary for gentlemen to see in what way that
would operate. They purchased foreign materials,
which were manufactured in this country and exported,
in competition with foreign manufactures. Now of
course the difference between the price of the
raw material and the amount which they ob-
tained for the manufacture when it was exported,
was the amount received for labour, interest of capital,
and profit. In order, therefore, to compete with
foreigners, they continued making improvements in
machinery. They had reduced the hours of labour
from seventy-seven per week to seventy-two, and from
seventy-two to sixty-nine, without, he believed, in-
juring their commerce. In 1816 they exported ten
millions of pounds of cotton twist; in 1843 he believed
they exported 113 millions.—(Hear, hear.) But, with
regard to the wages of those employed in cotton mills
there had been very little difference indeed. For the
last fifteen years the money wages had been about the
same. He had procured returns of the wages paid in a
number of factories in 1832, and he found that the
average rate of wages for men, women, and children
working in mills was from 9s. 6d. to 12s. per head. He
had also got returns in reference to a number of
factories in the year 1844, and he found that the
average rate of wages was nearly the same, perhaps a
little more than in 1832. There was no trade in which
wages were so regular as in factories, and this was,
because in factories great numbers were collected
together. As in the army and in the navy, so here, they
could not be altering wages every day. Whether times
were brisk or slack, the wages continued about the same.
Persons who were employed separately—take, for in-
stance, the case of the hand-loom weavers were
obliged to compete with each other. This naturally
lowered wages ; for the manufacturers would say, " The
times are bad, and if you cannot take less wages we
cannot give you work." In factories, as he had already
said, there was very little fluctuation with regard to the
wages of persons employed in factories. Now the great
end of this legislation was, he conceived, to protect the
young ; and this could not be done unless they bad a sys-
tem which embraced all ages. The reason why the dif-
ferent Acts which had been passed had always failed
of their efficiency was that they had only legislated for
children, and for persons of 16 or 18 years of age,
whereas the great object was to legislate for all under
21—that there should be one uniform time for all. That
was the great object which he had always had in view ;
and he believed that legislation of this kind would
benefit both masters and operatives. He did not believe
that the wages of the operative would be reduced by
this measure.—(Hear.) If they were, there was one
day in the week on which the operatives worked for the
bread tax ; and if they found that they could not com-
pete with foreigners without taking off that tax, and
even the tax upon cotton, they must be prepared to
make the necessary sacrifice.(Hear hear.) He
thought that great philanthropy had been manifested
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite in coming forward to ad-
vocate this humane measure ; and he thought the whole
nation would feel that it was their duty to proceed fur-
ther, if necessary, by removing all those restrictions and
burdens which pressed upon the manufacturing interests.
He believed that by passing this Bill they would give
satisfaction to the operative classes, and set this question
completely at rest, and make the people generally pros-
perous, contented, and happy. With these views he
should certainly vote for the Bill.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. MANNERS said it had been his intention to
give a silent vote on this Bill ; but after the challenge
which had been thrown out by the Hon. Member for
Manchester, he could not adhere to his intention. The
Hon. Member had asked him if in the short tour which
he had made in company with his Hon. Friends, the
Members for Canterbury and Sandwich, he saw anything
which would bear out the harrowing picture drawn by
the Noble Lord, the Member' for Dorsetshire. He had
great pleasure in telling him that he did not.—(" Hear,
hear," from the Opposition benches.) if the House
would permit him to give a general detail of what he
saw in visiting these great establishments, he would
state that their generd characteristics were a small town
of well-built cottages of two stories each, with two rooms
on each story, with large windows, with plenty of furni-
ture, with capacious back-yards, and with an ample sup-
ply of coal and water—all at a rent of three shillings
a week, which, he believed, was generally stopped out of
the wages. He saw, besides, most minute supervision in
every part of these establishments on the part of the
manufacturer. Every shop was licensed by him; everybody
was dependent upon him for the exercise of his calling
and for his very existence.—(Hear.) He entirely concur-
red with the Noble Lord (Stanley) as to the difficulty of
arriving at anything like sound conclusions as to the
sanitary condition of the manufacturing classes, because
he was convinced that an appearance of health might
exist notwithstanding its absence.—(Hear, hear.) Ruddy
cheeks and blooming lips might be produced as well by
over excitement as by genuine health. He had no hesi-
tation in saying that the appearance of the young women
in the manufacturing districts was generally healthy.
So much for the appearance of the people. He believed
that the wages of men, women, and children, averaged
9s. or 10s. a week. Thirty shillings was the income of
the inhabitants of a cottage, which would amply pro-
vide the conveniences and eomforts of existence.—
(Hear, hear.) He had thus endeavoured to answer the
general challenge of the Hon. Member for Manchester,
and he would now proceed to notice a' more particular
one. The Hon.. Member asked him if it was true, as
had been reported, that they had had some talk with the
agricultural immigrants, and he wished to know the re-
suit of that conversation? Now he (Lord J. Manners)
fund, in a brief note which he took at the time, the fol-
lowing allusion One cottage we entered was that of
a woman from Hampshire, with ten children when she
came. When asked if she would like to go back, she
shook her bead, laughed, and said No.' She was
cooking
of he dinner
n mill .
s for
wasr
her
beef and
children,
—(Hear,should comeear,
from the Opposition benches.) Now he was happy to
to be enabled to pay
wealthy
saitete of praise to the conduct
of those great and
iiiitia.4ctileasnufaturers whose fac-
tories he had
" Hear, hear.")
But he must now remark tl?at
--akar, hear.) H.
thus stated did not, in his opinion, militZteatagliinst had
IS pro-
proposal of the Noble Lord.
—(gear,
was to l,imit the periOd of labour for females and
young people to ten hours. His statement was that,
owing to the mothers of families being compelled to
work twelve hours, that deplorable disorganization and
reverse of the order of nature had taken place which he
had described with such painful particularity. He be-
lieved the statements of the Noble Lord to be substan-
tially correct.—(Hear, hear.) What he had seen in
Bolton, contrasted with what he had seen in Turton,
showed him how great might be the contrast between_
the spectacles exhibited in two places situated at a short
distance from each other. It was said that wages
would be reduced if this Bill were passed. Was
that the opinion of the three or four hundred manu-
facturers who had signed the petition in its favour ?
He believed that the Committee could wisely, because
humanely, accede to the proposition of his Noble Friend,
and it should have his hearty and cordial support. He
would advise the House to consider what the effect of
their decision upon this question would be upon the
country. The hour might be at hand when
the House would—not only in practice, but in
theory and name—cease to be the representa-
tives of the people of England. He would
entreat the House to reflect upon what happened in the
last three years. Had they learned nothing from the
manufacturing insurrections in the North, and the
agrarian insurrection in Wales ?—(Cheers.) Had they
learned nothing from the conflagrations in Cambridge,
and Suffolk, and other parts of the country ?—(Cheers
and counter-cheers.) If the House continued to dis-