The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

as early a period as those you have mentiont• 1, in consequt•nce of the ilry rot ?
No, I cannot say that I have.
In your answer to the last questions, you have spoken of ships built at Quebec,
are you acquainted with any ships built of American timber in this country ? No,
I am not. .

Are you acquainted with any that are partially built with that description of
timber? 'We repair ships with American timber, because it comes cheaper.
Can you state how those repairs hold out, in comparison with repairs made upon
ships with English or other timber not American ? Speaking from my own know-
ledge, I have seen no difference at all; we have repaired ships with Quebec timber,
and which answered all our expectations; had the repairs been done with English
oak, Ido not apprehend they would have been better. Besides, it is so much more
"Pensive, that few would go to that expense, for the sake of putting in English
Plank.

Have you observed that those ships have been more liable to the dry rot than
those which have been built with the Baltic timber ? No, I have not.
Is it your opinion that American timber is more subject to dry rot than the Bri-
tish or Baltic timber ? They are all subject to the dry rot, if not properly converted.
The question put by the committee applies to timber under the same circum-
stances ? I should think not; not the white oak. I never in my life saw a Que-
bec ship rotten in six years, and I have had a great many through my hands.
Have you seen any instances of ships, where both British and American timber
have been used, becoming liable to the dry rot from the mixture of the two? No,
I cannot say I have ; I should think they would be likely to contaminate each other,
if put in not properly seasoned. I think that the Quebec oak would destroy the
English ; and the English, if not properly seasoned, would have a tendency to de-
stroy the other.
Then, if it should appear to take place, you would attribute it to the different -states
in which the timber was used, and not to the natural quality of the wood ? I should
attribute it to the state in which the wood was in when used.
Is it not the case that any wood which has contracted the dry rot, will com-
municate it to any other wood with which it may come in ceontact ? No doubt of
it ; it is clearly a disease.
From what cause do you think the dry rot to arise, principally in ships ? My own
opinion is, that the cause in the English oak is its being cut down in an improper
season, the sap being up the tree, which is done for the sake of saving the bark, but
which in my opinion causes a vegetation, and produces the dry rot.
Do you not attribute a great deal to the situation in which it may be placed?
, • If it is not cut in the proper seasons, it is no matter where you put it, it will have
the dry rot.
-Will not the best seasoned timber also acquire the dry rot, if placed in close damp
situations not sufficiently aired? It will injure the timber no doubt; but it would
.not have the dry rot in the same period of time that the other would ; timber that
's well seasoned will last for a great number of years, especially English oak, if got
I at a proper time.
Are you of opinion that the dry rot originates solely from the want of seasoning
in the timber, and never from the position• in which that timber is placed, when the
timber is well seasoned? I think it arises from the cause I have mentioned,
namely, cutting it at improper seasons ; if it is cut at the proper season, and not
seasoned before it is converted, it will get the dry rot.
What do you mean by proper season? Cut in the proper season.
Is not all the American oak cut in the winter season ? Ido not know ; I believe
they cut it in the summer ; I never was up the country, though I have been at
Quebec.

You cannot speak to it? No.
Are you of opinidn, American oak and English oak, each fell at the same season,
are equally liable to the 'dry rot, and the same with respect to American fir, and
Norway fir? It depends a great deal upon the seasoning and felling; at the same
time, it depends a great deal on the situation where it grows ; oak that grows in a
low swampy situation, as for instance, in some parts of Lincolnshire, is a red foxy
oak, and do what you will with it, it will get the dry rot. With respect to drawing
a comparison between the felling American and English oak, I think it would have
the same effect on them. The white oak in America is very little inferior to the
English oak, if seasoned properly; at the same time, I certainly should prefer the
English oak to the American oak, as I should think that the one would be more
subject to the dry rot than the other.
Is there any other description cf American oak brought to England except white
oak ? A great deal comes into this country both red and white. '
Which comes in the greatest quantity? It is impossible for me to say; perhaps
there may be as 'much of one as the other.
What are the purposes to which it is chiefly applied? Chiefly applied to the
repairing of ships.
Do you allude to the red oak ? Both the white and the red.
Please to describe to the committee, what in your opinion are the qualities of red
oak? Red oak is a very inferior wood,' it is very subject to the dry rot.
Does this disposition for dry rot depend very much on the seasoning at which it
is fell; or to its position in the work in which it is placed ? I should think that the
cause of the Quebec oak timber being subject to the dry rot, very much depends on
the manner in which it is converted ; it comes over here in logs, it is put in the water,
and after laying there some time, it is taken out of the water to the saw-pit ; there
it is cut up and put into the ship immediately, which is very much against the qua-
lity of the wood ; let it be what it will, it will sooner decay in that ray than if cut
into plank, and had remained under a shed to season it, for all the damp is in it
which causes it to decay.
Do you think then tliat a more careful system of management would prevent the
red oak from becoming subject to the dry rot? I think if the oak was to come from
America in the shape of plank, as it does from the Baltic, it would be superior to
the Baltic plank ; the Baltic plank comes converted into plank ; it is landed, and
~.it lies for months before it is sold. and all that time it is seasoning; whereas,
4nebee comes in the log; it is cut into 'plank, and converted at once, which
is not doing that justice to it which it ought to have, or indeed to any timber so used.
Is there any thing. in the state of the laws which prevents the Canada timber
croro
being imported in the state of plank instead of log ? No ; if they had mills
in Canada to cut them ; as a commercial country, Canada is as yet only in its
infancy.
Are you not aware, that in the United States of America great prejudices exist
against the northern oak, as well the Canada as the New England oak, and that
the preference is always given to the oak grown in the middle States ? I should
think the United States have very little knowledge of the Canada oak ; the ships
that are built at Boston are built of red oak, which are considered very inferior to
ships built at New York or Philadelphia.
Is there no white oak- grown in the northern States ? Very little.
Will you have the goodness to state to the committee any observations that you
have had an opportunity of making with respect to the comparison of the American
fir with the fir of the north of Europe ? The red pine of America in my opinion is
equal to the pine which comes from any ports of the north of Europe for masts or
for decks of ships ; the yellow pine I should think equal to the Norway pine, or to
the Swedish ; but the Dantzic I should think superior to any of the others except
the Quebec red pine.
When you say that, do you mean for any particular,
,purposes ? I mean for ship-
building exclusively.
Do you not consider the Riga pine superior to the Dantzic? Yes, I consider
it superior.
Have you had any experience of the use of the NOrway timber in ship build-
ing? No.
How do you estimate the yellow pine of Canada as compared with the yellow
pine of the Baltic? It depends upon what purpose it is to be applied; for the in-
ternal work of a house, I should have no choice which I take ; but if it was for the
repairing of a ship, the Riga and Dantzic are preferable to the American yellow pine.
For what parts in the construction of the ship do you use the yellow pine?
Principally for the flooring of the decks.
Is it used for timber 7 Very seldom, the English ship-owners generally prefer
the Quebec oak.
Is the committee to understand that for the flooring of decks the yellow pine is
superior to the Norway pine ? It certainly is ; the other is not large enough, you
cannot .convert it, you cannot make a deck of it.
Then when you speak of the quality of the American pine as compared with the
Norway pine, you do not mean to give an opinion as to the quality of the wood,
hut you give the preference to the American over the Norway, in consequence of
the latter not being convertible to the proper sizes? Yes, certainly.
Have you ever seen ships built entirely or principally of American fir? Yes,
I have in New Brunswick ; they build those ships of oak at Quebec.
What has been the durability of those ships? The ships that I have seen built
of red pine at New Brunswick, have been superior to almost any ships except oak
ships ; indeed, for myself, I would as soon have a red pine ship as many that are
built in this country, at Sunderland, for instance.
How long have you known those ships to last? Nine or ten years.
Are you aware that about the year 1 8 1 3, several frigates were built of American
pine in the merchants' yards? Yes.
Those ships were broken up in 1 816; had you an opportunity of seeing any of
those ships broken up? Yes ; Sir Robert Wigram built four, and the others were
built at Hill's, or Enling's dock.
Do you know whether those were built of red or white pine? That I cannot tell.
Had you an opportunity of seeing those ships in consequence of breaking them
up? I only saw them going down the river as I was passing.
If those ships had been of a size which could have been employed for the mer-
chants' service, were they then in such a state that they could have been so em-
ployed? If they had been ships that could have been converted into merchant-
men, I have no doubt they would have been in existence yet, or would have been
sold to merchants abroad, but these frigates could not be sold to foreigners, as it is
a special condition made by the navy board.
Why do you suppose they were broken up, if they were in a sound state? I
should suppose peace coming, it was not worth the while government to keep them
merely to lie by the walls to rot.
The committee understood you to say, you did not see them only upon passing
when you were going down the river? I could see them very well, as part of their
sides were open, and I could see that many of their planks were rotten.
Did you examine those ships sufficiently to ascertain whether the dry rot had or
had not existed on board of them ? No, I did not.
What is your opinion as to the relative value of the Quebec oak and the Dantzic
oak ; which is the best timber of the two? There is very little timber comes from
Dantzic. If the Quebec white oak was properly seasoned, it is preferable to the
Dantzic, and very little inferior to the English
Have you ever broken up a ship yourself built of Quebec oak or American pine?
No, never.
At what relative difference of price would you prefer to purchase English oak to
-American white oak? We cannot draw a comparison, because Quebec oak comes
all of one description ; but English plank will vary from 71. per load to 201.
per load.
Suppose the English oak to be the same scantling as the American oak? If it
was to repair a ship, I should prefer the Quebec timber ; but 1 can hardly answer
-that question, because the American timber chiefly comes in logs, out of which I can
cut a six-inch plank, and which does not cost
me more than 71. per load; but if

I had to purchase an English plank of six-or seven inches thick, I should have to
pay 17 to 201. per load ; to get a six-inch plank out of an English tree, the tree
must at least have 60 or 70 feet, and there being a considerable scarcity of that
size wood, the timber merchants ask a great deal of money for it ; but if I were to
buy a Quebec log, I should not have to pay more than 61. or 71.
Is not Quebec oak used as well as English oak for repairing ships ? Yes; I never
knew a ship built of Quebec timber in this country.
For such other purposes as your last answer does not apply to, what difference
in price do you think you should prefer to buy English oak at, to Quebec white
oak ? I should, as far as it depended on myself, give 20 per cent more for, white
English oak.
Can you answer the same question, with respect to the relative value between
American white oak and the red ; what degree of inferiority of price, between red
oak and white oak, would induce you to use it ? When we buy a lot of English
oak in this market, we cannot tell whether it is red or white ; it is all mixed toge-
ther ; we cannot go in the market and select it ; if we buy a lot, we cannot afford
to throw away the red; we put it in with the white.
Would any merchant employing you to repair a ship, allow you to put in red
oak in place of white ? No, if he knew it, certainly not.
In point of fact, if you were to enter into a contract to build a good and suffi-
cient ship for those purposes of trade, where they are employed, such as the Jamaica
trade or East India trade, would you introduce into that ship any of' the white
oak? No, not of myself,,without permission of the owner.
Why not? Because, certainly, those who build ships in this country, are gene-
rally confined to build them with English,oak.
Have you any other reason ? No.
In point of fact, is not the Canada oak more liable to perish than English oak ?
Yes.
Is not that circumstance a sufficient reason, of itself, for not introducing it into
the building of ships ? There is some English oak worse, in my opinion, than
the Quebec white oak, and very little better than Quebec red oak.
Presuming that you have had occasion to purchase oak plank, would you pur-
chase Canada plank in preference to Dantzic ? I should prefer the white oak of
Quebec-; I should rather give the preference to it than the Dantzic.
As you have spoken of the durability of ships built of North American pine, can
you speak of the durability of ships built of the pine of the Balder No, I cannot.
Is the timber of the Baltic or North America, equally valuable for repairing
ships with English oak ? It is preferable for repairing ships.
In giving that answer, do you not take into consideration that it is not necessary
to last so long as timber which would be used for the building of ships ? Certainly
that is one reason why we repair a ship with Canada or Baltic oak, it makes the
ship all of a-piece with that which is left.
,Are there not a great many parts of a ship, as the masts, and other parts, for which
American timber is universally used ? They use Riga masts, and sometimes
American masts ; you are obliged to use that which is in the market.
Is it not used for all the ships of war? You cannot get such large masts from
Riga as from Canada.
The committee understand that to apply to ships of war? To ships of war and
to Indiamen.
Does it likewise apply to the higher description of merchantmen employed in
other trades ? A merchant always prefers the Quebec red masts, which I look
upon to be the best that can be brought into a ship.
Is the yellow pine applied to those purposes ? Sometimes it is.
What do you take to be the amount of the quantity of fir imported from Ame-
rica, with a view to those purposes? That is a question I cannot answer.
Is it a very large quantity? It is a very large quantity, no doubt.
A large quantity is necessary for those purposes, and for which the American
timber is preferred ? Yes.
Do you think, if there were a considerable alteration of duty, that for those pur-
poses American fir would be still brought to this country ? I should think that for
those purposes American deal would be still brought to this country; the difference
of freight would prevent the importation of timber from America.
Under what possible alteration of duty do you think that American timber would
still come and be saleable in the market of this country? I think American tim-
ber would bear from five shillings to seven and sixpence, perhaps ten shillings per
load upon it.
Sup ose instead of laying on a duty of five shillings or seven and sixpence per
load, that amount should be taken off of northern timber, what effect do you think
that would produce? I think the Canada trade w,,uld be then 'reduced to a very
great extent, and the Baltic trade would be increased ; the price would get up, for
the demand for it would be so great from the ports of the Baltic, that they would
raise the price immediately.
Why do you think a greater effect would be produced by taking off the duty from
the northern timber, than there would be by laying on the same amount of duty upon
Canadian timber ? It would be the same to look at it ; if a duty was laid upon the
timber, there would not be so many importers of it as there are at present, there
now being persons who glut the market ; they would then be more select ; but when
it comes duty free, they send all sorts of timber, and the bad establishes the price
for the good.
Then do you not think that such an alteration of the duty as would produce the
effect you have stated would be for the general advantage of the country ? I should
think any thing that would employ the British shipping, of course would be advan-
tageous to the country ; if the duty were to be altered so as -to prevent the importa-
tion of timber from Canada, you would throw about 6 or 700 sail of ships, and
more than as many thousand men out of employ ; and besides that which comes
from America, the freightage forms the most valuable part, that is all spent in the
outfit of the ship, and the sailors' wages, and very little of it goes into the owners'
pockets ; that I can speak to, of my own knowledge. We get very Fttle money :
all our freight goes in paying the shipwright and mastmakers, and ropemakers and
sailmakers, and all other trades, which are requisite to the outfit of a ship.
Have you any vessel in the Baltic trade? None ; the port charges and expenses
are so heavy, that if an English ship owner can get a freight to America, he will
not go there. I would observe, in addition to my former answer, that in fitting our
ships out to America, we lay in our provisions in this country, such as salt beef and
pork, and bread and flour; but the English ships which go to the Baltic, take no
Irish provisions, or very little; they may have a single cask or so on board; the-
reason is, because they can get them cheaper in the Baltic.
Aie you- of opinion, that the imposition of the duty you have,mentioned on the
American timber, and which would tend to check the importation of it, would
produce a great effect upon the shipping, and the persons employed? Certainly
trot; though it might to a small degree, but not to any great extent, because no
timber would be imported then, but of sound quality.
You have stated, that if a duty of five shillings to ten shillings per load were laid
on the timber of America, it would exclude from the trade a portion of importers,
whose conduct is injurious to it, and would lead to the importation of timber better
selected and better prepared, being aware that the present freight of timber is 455.
from Canada, that the other charges are not less than five shillings, making to-
gether 50s. ; are you of opinion, that an increase of those charges of a sixth or
an eighth, would be sufficient to exclude those persons from the trade, and lead to
the consequences you have described ? I should think it would.
Then you are of opinion that this advantage would be obtained in this manner,
by laying a duty on the American thither, and the Baltic timber remaining subject to
the present duty ? Yes.
Is the committee to understand that you are of opinion that a reduction of the
duty upon Baltic timber, of from five to ten shillings per load, would not produce
the same effect? I should think not.
You have stated the present price of freight of American timber to be about
forty-five shillings? It is forty shillings from New Brunswick, and some of the
other ports, and forty-five shillings from Quebec.
Is that such a freight as, at the present rate of seamen's wages, will yield a fair
remuneration to the owners? It is at such a rate that the ship owner would prefer
going there to the Baltic for twenty shillings ; a ship owner would more readily go
to Quebec for forty-five shillings, than to the Baltic for twenty shillings.
Would they rather go to Quebec for forty shillings than to Memel for twenty
shillings? I should think they would ; for a ship would make her voyage nearly
in as little time as she would make two voyages to Memel, and the port expenses
and other charges are so much greater, that I should think lie would prefer it.
Do you think he would rather P. o for five and thirty shillings? I should think
he would in the summer season ; he would not in the fall of the year.
Then it is your opinion, that the ships in the Canada trade are now earning such
freights as are paying the owners fairly ? We prefer going there to going to the
Baltic : it is as good as any employment we can get; but we could not afford to
build ships for that trade ; the ships employed in this trade are the second-class
ships, which would be broken up, if we had not this trade.
Then do you therefore, consider one of the advantages of this trade to be that,
of being able to employ vessels which would not be competent to carry articles of
weight, and which were perishable? They would be broken up, if it were not for
that employ.

[Adjourned till to-morrow, at one o'clock.]

Vtneris, 16 die Februarii, 1821.

The Right Honourable THOMAS WALLACE, in the Chair.

Homy Ueborne, Esquire, called in, and examined.

The committee understand you are a merchant ? Yes.
Engaged in what trade? In the Canadian principally.
You have been also engaged in the Russian trade? I have.
Are you still engaged in the Russian trade? In a small degree.
Then you can speak to both the Canadian and Russian trade? I can speak to
both, but more particularly to the Canadian.
Can you state what proportion the exports of wood bear to the general value of
the exports from Russia to this country? No, I have not that information.
Is it a considerable proportion? I should think so.
Can you state at all, whether any diminution of the duties now imposed upon
timber, would be likely to produce any considerable effect upon the Russian trade
in this country? I should think so.
In what way? I should think the less the duty, the greater the trade.
Do you think that any diminution of the duty would produce a larger export of
Russian timber to this country? Yes, I think it would.
Do you believe that the effect of diminishing the duty would be to raise the price
,of timber in Russia? Yes.
Do you think it would be raised in a proportion equivalent to the duty taken off?
•I think it must depend upon how much duty is taken off, how much it would alter the
price.
Suppose five or ten shillings per load of timber, do you think it would rise in the
same proportion? I think it would, or nearly so.
Then what reason have you to think, that if wood came at the same price as it
does at present, the import of it into this country would be much increased? There
would be a greater inducement to the landed proprietors to get it out and export it.
What effect do you think an increased export of wood from Russia would produce
upon the imports of the manufactures and produce of this country ? I think
not much.

Are you of opinion that Russia takes as much now as she would be likely to
take ? I think she does.

Upon the supposition of any alteration taking place in the mode of taking the
duty, what effect do you think would be produced by taking the duty upon the cubic
feet, instead of the manner in which it is taken at present? It would much more
benefit Norway than any other country, provided the rate of duty was the same.
Do you think it-irould tend to lessen the importation from Russia? I think it
would.

In any considerable degree ? Yes ; Norway would have such a decided pre-
ference, it would lessen the export from all other countries.
Would not that be confined to deals in particular? More generally so.
In what ships is the trade between this country and Russia principally carried
on ? Both in British ships and foreign.
Do you know in what proportion ? I think in the greater proportion of foreign.
Do you speak from mere recollection, or have you looked to any accounts or
returns to confirm your opinion ? No; as there are tables which I supposed were
before the committee, I did not refer to them.
You have resided, the committee understand, in Canada? Yes.
How long have you been engaged in the trade of that country? Nineteen years.
Can you speak to the quality of the Canada timber as compared with that of
the Baltic? Yes.

State to/he committee what is your opinion upon that subject? Do the com-
mittee refer to oak or to pine?
Of pine, the growth of our colonies, as compared with the pine of Norway ?
The red pine I conceive equally good for every purpose. •
Is not the principal import in yellow pine? Yes.
Compare that ? I think for internal purposes it is as good as the Baltic.
Have you found that the pine brought from America into this country is par-
ticularly liable to the thy rot? No, I think not.
Not more than the pine brought from the Baltic? No, I conceive not; in
Canada many of the houses and churches which have been built of it, have, I
understand, stood a hundred years.
The committee is speaking of the wood brought to this country? I conceive it
not more liable.

Have you had any means of observing its use, either in shipping or in buildings ?
I have built several ships in Canada. in which the yellow pine has been used : some
of them are now in being ; the trade has been so new in this country, that it is
difficult to give an opinion as to its liability to the dry rot. I know of no instance
where the dry rot has happened, where it would not have happened if wood of other
description had been used.
To what description of persons is the yellow timber sold ? To all timber
merchants.

Do you know for what purposes it is chiefly employed ? For all purposes, but
more particularly for inferior purposes.
Do you know of its being employed in any of what are called the first rate
houses? I scarcely know any thing of the conversion of it.
Are not the houses in Canada generally built of that wood? Yes, invariably of
the wood of that province.
Is not ship building carried on to a great extent in Canada? It has been, but
now it is not.

Can you state at all the tonnage annually built there in any average of years?
Twenty to thirty ships, from two hundred to five hundred tons per annum.
Is a great proportion of the timber trade carried on in those ships? At first,
during the war, they were, too valuable when new ; but latterly they have been
employed in'it, as there has been less employment for good ships in other trades ;
inferior ships are as good as the first class of ships for the timber trade.
Do you know any ships built in that country, that have lasted more than a few
years? Yes; I have a list here of 123, all of which have been built ten years and
upwards ; it is extracted from Lloyd's boqk of this year; it contains the number of
ships built in Canada, and which are now in existence.
[The List was handed in ]
Have you ever bad any opportunity of observing the Canadian timber in union
with other timber, such as Baltic ? No, except it has been in ship-building.
Or of its communicating the dry rot ? No ; I should say we have supplied
government with great quantities ; and when the demand in Canada has been large,
and the prices high, some oak timber has been cut in the spring and immediately
brought down and floated to Quebec, where it has been shipped wet from the rafts,
and in this state brought to London ; I understand it has been immediately used,
and being so used, it has been subject to the dry rot; but I conceive that any other
timber would be equally subject was it treated in the same way.
You attribute it then entirely to the period at which the wood was cut, and not to
any peculiar liability to the dry rot in the wood itself? No, I attribute it to want
of proper seasoning.
What is the ordinary employment of the peasantry in Canada? In winter many
are employed in cutting and preparing timber, and in the spring, rafting it and
bringing it down to the port of Quebec, and in summer, in farming.
Do you mean by that, that generally speaking, the wood that is cut in Canada,
and rafted, is cut and rafted by the people who are employed in farming during the
summer season ? Yes. _ .

Do you mean to state by that, that there are no persons in Canada, whose time
is exclusively devoted to timber-cuttingand rafting of it? Very few.
Are the persons chiefly employed, natives, or Canadian settlers? I think more
Canadians than others • there are many Scotch settlers or emigrants who are
employed, and many of the Americans.
Does the pine timber chiefly come from the Upper or Lower Canada? The oak
timber principally from Upper Canada, and the pine timber, about equally from
both.

Do you not know, that the timber men come from the United States for the
purpose of cutting timber, and rafting it within the British colonies? The Ame-
ricans are more expert axemen, in consequence of which they are sometimes brought
in for the purpose of cutting our timber and rafting it.
Is it not the common and general practice? No, it is not a very common
practice; it is done sometimes. I should add, timber is procured in many different
ways; frequently many farmers procure a small quantity, which he exchanges for
rum and clothes and provisions, and all the necessaries that he requires, with the
merchant, who, in the country, retails out the different things which are imported
into Canada
Is not a certain proportion of the timber shipped at Quebec, the produce of the
United States? Yes.
What proportion will it bear to the whole quantity exported from that country?
I should think-one-third.
What, in yotir opinion, would be the effect upon the British interests, either in
Canada, or in this country, if the importation into the United Kingdom were con-
fined to the timber the actual growth of our own provinces ? I think it would be
very advantagrus to our`own colonies.
Are you aware of any means by which that could be effected? It might be
effected, I think, by having a certain number of custom-houses, and levying a duty
when it came in.
At what stations would you suggest the placing of those custom-houses? At
St. John's I would station one.
Is there any restriction by any colonial act on the timber trade, between the two
countries ? No, I believe not.
No duty exists upon the importation of timber into Canada from the United
States? I believe none.
In what other situation would you suggest a custom-house to be established?
At or near St. Regis.
Do you think, that the growth of the timber shotTld be ascertained at those
Lustom-houses? I should think that quite impossible.
Do you not think that Chateau Quai, where every raft is obliged to take a pilot
when it passed the rapid, would be a better situation for a custom-house than
St. Regis? No ; for much timber is got out below St. Regis.
If the American timber should still continue to be imported into Canada, and
not to be exported again under the exemption of duty which now exists, or any
reduced duty at which it may hereafter be adviseable to permit the importation of
American timber into Great Britain, are you not of opinion that the American
tileber Would be consumed principally in the province, and that more timber, the
growth of the province, would be exported in consequence of it? I think in the
towns, more American timber would be used in consequence.
Then of course the qUantity of Canadian timber that would have supplied that
demand, would be sent to this country? I think it would.
How long were you a resident in our North American colonies ? Seven years ;
principally in Quebec.
Does not a' great proportion of the colonial timber come from New Brunswick ?
Yes ; a great proportion, especially of the inferior.
What is your opinion of the relative durability of colonial yellow pine, as com-
pared with Baltic pine, for general purposes of building ? Where it is protected
from the weather, I think it would last as long, or nearly so : I form this opinion
from the buildings which I have seen in Canada.
Should you form the same opinion, from any experience you have had in this
country ? I should think it impossible to form any correct opinion of that kind,
because it has not been long imported into this country.
Is not the general opinion of builders, of both ships and houses, opposed to
yours? I think they are prejudiced against it ; but which is perhaps the case in all
new trades.
Are not the relativ: qualities of the two descriptions of timber best ascertained
by the prices which the same dimensions of timber sell for in the market ? I think
not; because a prejudice prevails against American timber; the Baltic timber is
much better prepared, and therefore better to convert.
Is not what you call prejudice, the real opinion of purchasers ? I can answer,
that I have lately repaired a house with it myself. I there used all Canadian
timber; therefore I judge the prejudices are unfounded.
But if you should find all other purchasers disposed to give a higher price for the
Baltic timber, would you not come to the conclusion, that the opinion of all other
persons is in opposition to yours? I cannot put my opinion in competition to every
other person.
Then you conceive that a great deal of prejudice exists on this subject? Yes,
for its use, in many cases.
What is the present value in the market of the colonial pine? I think from
31. to 31. 10s. depending upon the quality. -
What is the preient price of Russian yellow pine ? lam not prepared to say,
having been absent from town some time.
What difference of price bet Ween the colonial yellow pine and the Russian yellow
pine would, in your opinion, cause the preference to be given to the European pine
in the markets of this country ? I think, for many inferior purposes, the one is 'as
valuable as the other; but the trade is' in that unnatural state now, no fair inference
can be drawn.
Then are you of opinion, that if European pine was at 61. while the colonial pine
was at 51. there still would be a considerable consumption of the colonial pine in this
country ? Yes ; particularly on the west side of this country.
In what proportion would the consumption exist, as compared with the present?
I think it would be nearly equal to the present.
If the American wood were at 41. 10s. and the Quebec at 61. that is to say, with
the difference of 30s. between the two, are you of opinion that the quantity of

cease.

colonial timber consumed would be diminished ? 1 think the pie.judice would be
less ; and, in time, the demand would increase as the timber was better knoWn.
_ .

You are therefore of opinion, that the colonial timber will bear a higher propor-
tion of price in the market than it now bears, when we have greater experience of
its quality ? I think Canada timber would ; I think the New Brunswick much
inferior to that of Canada.

What has the price of yellow pine timber been at Quebec during the last year?
From 20s. to 30s. a load.

Do you think that 20s. a load is a sufficient price to remunerate the cutter and
rafter for his labour in bringing the timber to market? I think, to a certain extent,
it is ; if there should he an increased demand, it will be dearer.
You do not think however that 20s would be a higher price than timber may
generally be expected to bear at Quebec? No; on the contrary, I think a lower

price.
Are the difficulty and expense of getting good timber increasing both in Canada
and in the Baltic? I understand it is; the expence, perhaps, more than the diffi-
culty, as it is further to bring it.
Is there any considerable stock of timber left on hand this year at Quebec ? I
understand not.

Do you know in what state the preparations were for cutting timber during this
winter ? I think the trade has been nearly stopt since the suspense respecting the
duties; I think, if the Baltic duty were taken off', the colonial trade would entirely

Then, in any event, you do not think, so much timber could be shipped this season
as has been shipped during the two preceding seasons? No.
Not in any event? No.
According to the general habits of the trade, is nearly all the timber cut down
in one winter exported, in the ensuing season? It is generally; but it sometimes
depends on the state of the snow,' which, if it goes away, some of it cannot be
got out.
Is there generally much timber left at the ports of export? Generally there is.
A good deal left? Yes.
Was there last year ? Not so much as in general.
Can you form any conjecture of the stock remaining over, as compared with the
annual export? I should think about one-eighth ; but I speak this without know-
ing positively.
The committee think you have stated as your opinion, that the cutting this last
winter has been less than usual? Much less.

You speak of the present winter? Yes.
Has the cutting of the present winter been less than usual? I understand that
it has. _

Is the winter far enough advanced so as to enable you to form a correct opinion
upon that subject? I form my opinion from the circumstance of not having sent
any orders myself for the private trade; and I understand no houses in the Canada
trade have given any orders for wood during the suspense of the duties.
Could any orders now sent affect the quantity to be cut, so as to be imported in
the present year ? I think only to a very small degree.
In your opinion, what would be the effect of a moderate duty upon the importa-
tion of colonial timber? I think it would be advantageous, because the quality of
what would come would be better selected. I would beg to add, that in giving any
opinion, I am presuming that no alteration will take place in the Baltic duty ; if
so, the trade with the British colonies would totally end.
Would not the laying a duty on the colonial timber, or the taking the duty off
the Baltic timber of is similar amount, have the same effect upon the colonial trade ?
I think not, because nowgreat quantities of very inferior timber come over, seeing
it is subject to no duty; but should a duty take place, more care would be taken in
selecting that which would be exported from our colonies.
Are you therefore of opinion, that adding .a moderate duty upon the colonial
timber would be less prejudicial to the interests of the colonial trade, than abstracting
the same amount of duty from the Baltic timber? Yes, unquestionably.
What amount of duty, in your opinion, could be laid on colonial timber without
materially affecting its consumption in this country? I think ten shillings might
be laid per load, without much affecting the consumption, because I think the quality
would be improved of that which came here.
What would be the effect of a fifteen shilling duty? Still more care in the
selection of it.

As to consumption, how would that be affected? I think the consumption at
first in that ease would be lessened, but from better timber coming, ultimately it
would have no effect to le'ssen the consumption, provided the duties of the Baltic
remained as they were; I take that as the basis of my opinion.
Would a twenty shilling duty materially reduce the consumption ? I think it
would.
To what extent do you think it would? I think, in time, it still would make
but little difference.
Would not the duty increase the price at which the timber could be sold in this
country? Yes, certainly, I conceive it would.
Would not its consumption depend upon the relative price at which the Baltic
timber could be delivered in this country? Yes, certainly.
But are you still of opinion, as expressed in one of your former answers, that
with a relative difference of thirty shillings, as compared with European timber, the
consumption of colonial timber would not be materially reduced? I conceive the
quality would be much affected by being better from the duty ; but still I think the
consumption would be nearly as much.
Would not, for a gteat many purposes, the colonial timber be consumed at prices
nearly equal to that of Baltic timber? I think for a few purposes.
Have not very considerable establishments been formed at Quebec, for sawing
timber, during the last few years? Very considerable.

,
You yourself have formed such an establishment ? Yes.
What amount of capital have you invested in establishments at Quebec, for sawing
timber? Our house has an establishment there, in which we have expended nearly
forty thousand pounds ; I have another establishment of my own, where I have
expended ten thousand potinds.
Those two establishments have been formed principally with the view of sawing
timber for exportation ? The larger one has ; the smaller one has not.
Do you know that several other establishments have been formed at Quebec for
the same purpose? I know there are; near, or at Quebec.
At a very considerable expence? Yes.
Have any steam-engines been sent from this country, for the purpose of driving
machinery to saw wood? Yes.
Is not Baltic timber at present at a higher price than American yellow pine, by
nearly three pounds a load? Yes, nearly three pounds.
Then, when you say American timber would come into consumption, with refer-
ence to a relative difference of price of thirty shi lings, you look forward to an
improvement of quality? Yes, I look forward to an improvement of the quality,
as well as an improvement of the trade likewise, because at present the trade is a

very bad one.
Does not the badness of the trade tend to depress the price of Baltic timber, as
well as American timber ? Not so much, I think ; because, in the new buildings
in and about London, I understand the American timber is excluded, so that there
is not the same demand.

In your judgment, would it not be most advisable to commence with imposing
a small duty on American timber, and to increase it afterwards, as the improvement
of its quality would enable it to bear such an increase? I think any permanent plan
would be better than the present suspense in which the trade is placed, and I am of
opinion, that a smaller duty might be more easily borne at first.
Would not a system of gradually increasing duties induce the importers to be
constantly spoiling the market, for the purpose of coining in with a large supply
every year, to escape the increasing duties on the succeeding year? No doubt of
it ; if you anticipate a larger duty, you would glut the market.
Do not the duties operate as much as a bounty to the people of the United States
as they do to our own colonial subjects? Yes, to a certain extent.
Not to the same proportion ? No ; our own colonies receive an advantage which
they do not, because shipped from and brought to our own ports, therefore, in some
measure, the advantages are on the side of our own colonies.
Has not the American timber trade in our own provinces been glutted by the
imposition of those high duties? Yes, in a great measure. -
Are you aware of any material advantage derived in a time of peace, from the
permission afforded to the United States of sending their timber duty-free through
our eoloiiies? No, I think it is a wrong measure.
Does that practice still continue to any extent? Yes.
Is it not confined entirely to the red pine? To that and to the oak, but more
particularly to deals, which are principally the yellow pine.
[Adjourned till to-morrow, at half-past one.

Sal)Lad, 17 die Februarii, 1821.
The Right Honourable Tnomas WALLACE, in the chair.
James Bainbridge, Esq. called in ; and examined.

Will you be so good as to state to the committee in what business you are
engaged? As a general merchant, particularly with the United States of America
and the British colonies. _

a 4••••• a••‘.. ././4 •••.•• _
Are you acquainted with the trade between this country and Russia? Generally ;
I have some general knowledge of the trade between this country and Russia.
Do you know at all what proportion the wood trade of Russia bears to its other
exports? No, Ido not.
Do you happen to know the proportions that the exports of Russia in wood bear
to the exports of wood from the other countries of the north of Europe? Upon
looking at the various papers that have been laid before the House of Lords, I find
the average of importation of the article of timber, previous to 1807, from different
ports of the north of Europe, was as follows : from Norway about one-fifth ; Sweden
one-hundredth part ; Russia one-ninth ; and from Prussia two-thirds ; that was
taking the average of nine years previous to 1807: In 1819, I find that Norway
was reduced to about one-sixteenth; Sweden had increased to one forty-eighth;
Russia was decreased to one thirty-second part, and Prussia one-fifth. The state of
deals for the same period was as follows:--Norway enjoyed about two-thirds of the
trade previous to 1807 ; Sweden one-ninth ; Russia one-sixth, and Prussia one-
fifth ; in 1819 I find that Norway was reduced to one-third, Sweden had increased
to one-sixth, Russia to one third, and Prussia one-eighth.
Do you attribute this great change in the proportions enjoyed by the countries
of the north in the supply of wood to this country, to the duties that have been
imposed ? I consider that the relative proportions of the exports from the different
ports of the north of Europe, have arisen from the variation in the market, occa-
sioned by sometimes one portion of timber being required in this country, and
sometimes another; no doubt the duty would operate so as to decrease the use of
foreign timber, inasmuch as that from the British colonies came in competition
with it.
To which should you ascribe the greatest effect ; to the state of the market, or the
imposition of the duties? I should think to the importation from the colonies,
which has decreased the quantity from the Baltic; and materially reduced the prices
of Baltic timber in the market.
What effect do you think would be produced in the trade with the northern part
of Europe, if a diminution of the duties were to take place? I should think it
would increase the importation from the north of Europe.

Do you think the same effect would be produced by an imposition of a duty
upon American timber ? Yes, I think it would increase the importation from
the north of Europe, if the foreign duty remained in the same state as it does
now. •1 think 'a small duty upon the American timber would produce a correc-
tive upon the state of the market, which, from the facility of bringing it from
the colonies, has been glutted, the importations having been unusually large for
the last three or four years.
Do you consider those importations have arisen from the facility of importation,
or from any other cause ? I think the excessive importation has arisen from the
total want of employment of the ships of this country; and from their not
having been able to find any other means of employment, but to have recourse to
the colonies to bring timber.
Then you think that the ships have created the trade, and not the trade the
ships ? Ido think so certainly; a great part of the trade has been carried on by
the owners of' the ships, and not by mercantile men connected with the colonies.
They were obliged to have recourse to the trade with the colonies to keep their
ships and seamen in subsistence.
Do you happen to know to what purposes the American yellow pine is chiefly
employed in this country ? I have no practical knowledge upon that subject.
We are in the habit of selling it, and I believe it is used for all subordinate
purposes ;- its uses are very general in London, for the purposes of packages, and
all inferior works of every description.
What is the proportion of yellow pine, as compared with any other description
Of pine brought from America ? I should think the yellow pine constitutes
nearly the whole of the quantity that is brought. There is a small quantity of red
pine brought, but I do not think it amounts to one tenth of the whole importation.
At what difference of price do you conceive that the American yellow pine
Would be preferred' for those inferior purposes for which it is now used ? At
present the market is in a very extraordinary state. 'We are obtaining only for
the best St. John's timber, and timber from Illiramachi, 31. a load ; this does not
leave to the importer-more than about 12s. for its first cost, the expenses of getting
cut the wood from America being about 15s. or 16s. per ton.
This is a state in which the trade could not continue, if no alteration was to
take place ? No, it could not ; the importations have been so immensely large,
that it would be useless to bring timber here, when it was producing a loss ; the
increase during the last two years has been excessive.
What effect could be produced on the consumption of American timber by a
given duty imposed upon it, say Os. ? I think it would have one very beneficial
advantage, inasmuch as it would correct the importation of a very large propor-
tion of very ordinary timber brought from America, and produce a beneficial ad-
vantage ultimately.
Supposing the duty was extended to 15s. what do you think would be the effect
of that ? Ido not think that the trade of that country would bear 15s.
Do you mean by that, that the consumption in this country would be completely
checked ? I think it would, because the quality of the yellow pine of America
is not considered good. Ido not know whether it is from prejudice, or from
what cause, but it certainly will not bear a duty of more than 10s. as com-
pared with the Baltic timber at the present existing duty.
What is the present difference between theprices of American and Baltic timber?
31. ss. ; the present price of St. John's timber is 31. and Memel timber 61. ss.
Then if the price of American timber was increased to 51. 15s. do you consider
that the consumption would be equal to what it is at present ? Ido not think it
would be used at all.

At what difference of price do you think the consumptiOn of American timber
will remain as at present in the market? At a difference of 555. between the
American and Baltic timber. .

Presuming that the timber cost twenty shillings a load in America, that the
freight is 21. 10s. and that the other charges are ten shillings, making 41. and to
that ten shillings should be idded as a duty, making the price of timber in this
market 41. 10s. and presuming that no alteration takes place in the duties upon
foreign timber, and that the price of Baltic remains at 61. ss. do you think at
those proportions the consumption of American timber in this market would be
equal to the present consumption ? Ido not ; I think if the price of American
timber was 41. 10s. and the Baltic at 61. ss. from the difference of quality (1 am
speaking of the yellow pine) the consumption of American timber would be con-
siderably less.

To what extent do you think the consumption would be diminished ? It is not
possible for me to say ; the state of the trade is so extremely unnatural now, that we
cannot at all judge of the precise effect that the change would have. I should think
that the importations of the last two years must have exceeded the consumption by
at least a hundred thousand loads ; I should think there is that quantity in the mar-
ket unsold, the timber of the growth of difrerent countries. I would just mention,
that in taking the criterion of timber,_ I observe it is generally spoken of as Canada ;
the proportion of timber that comes from Canada bears so small a proportion to the
general trade, that I think is a matter of very considerable importance to be under-
stood ; —the importation from Canada is only about one-fourth of the whole im-
portation from the British provinces.
Do you include deals in that ? Yes, I include the whole ; Nova Scotia and its
dependencies, produce about one-ninth, and New Brunswick about six-ninths ; it
has been stated that much of the timber comes from the United States ; I wish to
explain, that what comes from the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia,
is entirely cut within the British colonies, and has no American interest in it, in
any manner or shape whatever.
Do you not think, that a difference of.thirty shillings in the price would be
sufficient to protect the consumption of the American timber for the inferior pur-
poses for which it is generally applied ? Ido not.
Has not a great fall taken place in the price of American timber within the last
two years, but not a correspondent fall in the price of Baltic ? In 1817, the price
of Memel timber was 61. 10s. in 1819 it was 61. and has continued from 61. to
61. ss. ; the price of timber from the lower provinces in 1817, was 41. 10s. in
1819, 31. 10s. and in the present year it is 31.
Then it appears, that a reduction in the price of American timber during the last
three years has taken place, of thirty shillings a load, and of the Baltic not above
ten shillings ;is not that so ? Yes.

Has not this fact led to a great increase in the consumption of American timber?
I should think it has, very considerably.
Are there not certain purposes for which American timber is now used, that it
would be still applied to, such as packing cases, picture frames, window frames, if
the prices were equal, or nearly so ? I think it would be always used for those
particular purposes, as it is generally understood to work easier, and is therefore
always more desirable for persons in those branches of trade.
Have you formed an opinion of the proportion of the whole timber consumed
in London for those purposes ? I have no means of ascertaining that particular
point _ _

- Are you not aware, that the consumption of timber for those purposes is very
considerable ? Yes, it is very considerable, particularly in all cases where articles
are required to be exported, and packing cases of every description ; and it is ex-
tremely desirable, because it is of such a description that those articles can be
made with it at a low rate.

You have stated, that you estimate the stock of all kinds of timber at present
in this country, to be about a hundred thousand loads ? I should think it is.
What do you consider to be the usual annual import of all kinds of timber ?
Upon looking at the state of the trade for nine years previous to 1790, the whole
import of timber was about 220,000 loads ; from 1815 to 1817, the importation
had increased upon the average of those three years to 243,800 loads, a trifle more
or less ; in 1819 it had increased to 85,700 loads ; in the first period of average
'207,700 came from the North of Europe ; in the next period 1816 to 1819, it had
decreased t 0107,000 loads from the north ofEurope ; in the last year it was 104,865;
SO that during the last four or five years, the timber trade from the Baltic has re-
mained stationary, notwithstanding the large imports from the British colonies.
Then in point of fact, it appears from your statement, that the present stock of
timber in the kingdom is little more than three months ordinary consumption ?
Yes, I do think so.

Are you of opinion that three months supply is an excessive stock ? No, Ido
not think it is a very large stock ; it certainly is larger than what we have usually
had at this season of the year, but I understand that there remains a very large
quantity of timber in the colonies, which was not got home last year, owing to the
very depressed state of the trade.
Was the quantity left in the colonies larger than usual ? Much larger.
Are you acquainted with the probable quantity of timber that will be cut in the
colonies this season ? I have been informed that it will be very much less than
that which had been cut the preceding year.
Then are you of opinion that the surplus left over last season, and the quantity
cut in the winter, will form more than an ordinary supply ? Yes, I think it will.
In what proportion more ? Perhaps lam not precisely in a condition to answer
that question, but I am informed that nearly a hundred and thirty thousand loads
over f the last year's cutting, which is about one-half of the whole impor-
tation of the past year.

Are the statements of quantities with which the Committee have been favoured,
made from official documents, or from your own observation and information ?
They are taken from the documents which have been presented to the House of
Lords, and which are added to the Appendix of their Report.
Has your evidence, which has been given before this Committee, a particular
reference to the London market, or has it been given with a reference to the general
market of the kingdom, and to the general state of the trade ? With reference to
the general market of the kingdom, and to the general state of the trade.
Are you acquainted with the relative value of the North American timber and
,the Baltic in the Liverpool market? Not so decisively as to be able to speak to
it lam more particularly acquainted with the London market.

You have stated in a former answer, that the expence of cutting timber or getting
it out of the woods was eighteen shillings per load; has not the great demand for
that timber caused an increase in the expense of getting it out of the woods during
the last two years ? 1 have understood the loss to the colonies has been excessively
great, and I presume it has arisen more particularly from the depressed state of
the market, than from any larger expense incurred by getting it out of the wood.
Is the Committee to understand, that there has been no increase of the expense
in getting the wood to what it was previously ? I have understood that the ex-
penses of getting timber were about 111 s. per load; I cannot answer the question
precisely. _ _ _

Are you acquainted with red pine timber, brought from below the lower ports ?
Yes.

Is it equal to the red pine brought from Canada ? Yes.
To what port do you particularly refer ? To St. John's.
Are you acquainted with the red pine exported from the port of Mirarnachi ?
No ; our transactions are principally with the port of St. John's.
What were the current rates of freight from the lower ports of America, during
the last season ? It varied from 40s. to 455. all charges included.
What, from the higher ports ? I believe from 455. to 555.

What from Norway or -Memel ? I cannot tell, I am not particularly ac-
quainted with the Baltic trade ; I have only been in the habit of exporting there.
Do you consider a diminution of the'difference of the duty between the Baltic
and North American timber would be likely to produce an increased or decreased
consumption of timber generally in the United Kingdom ? I think if there was
a‘cleaeaie of duty upon the Baltic timber, it would d&rease the use of American

timber. 1 should presume that the wants of the country would remain as before,
and I should think the quantity of timber that would be consumed would be the
same.

What effect, do you think, would be produced by the diminution of the duties
upon the Baltic timber, or the imposition bf a duty upon the American timber, in
the exports of the manufactures of the country? I think it would snake no ma-
terial difference : for if you decreased the duty upon Baltic timber, so as to occa-
sion any decrease of the importation of American timber, the exports would pro-
bably increase to the north of Europe, while they would decrease to the colonies.
Then you are of opinion that a decrease in the amount of the duties upon the
Baltic timber would increase the exportation of our manufactures to that country ?
A diminution in the duty on the wood, in all probability, would increase the means
whereby foreigners would be enabled to take away manufactures from this country.
Do you think it would produce that effect ? No, Ido not; I think that the
quantity of British manufactures that would go to the North of Europe would not
be increased by any further importation from the North of Europe : I think the
amount of British manufactures and articles which are usually taken by that
country would not be materially affected by any alteration of the duties on wood.
Do you think, with respect to Russia, Sweden, and Prussia, that the increased
means of paying for our manufactures would not induce an increased consumption?
I believe the woollen manufactures, in Prussia are in such a state as to enable them
to compete with us completely ; I speak of it particularly, because we arc in the
habit of having transactions with the United States of America, and I find that a
very considerable proportion of fine woollens, and of low woollens and stuffs, are
absolutely shipping from the Netherlands, and from ports contiguous, part of which
I understand to come from the interior of Germany, and from Saxony particularly,
so that a portion of the trade which we have been in the habit of transacting with
the United States is finding its way from the North of Europe ; I therefore conceive
that their manufactures are competing very much with the manufactures of this
country, and consequently they would not come to us to receive a supply of those
articles which they can produce from their own manufactures at home.
Do you know whether the export to those countries has been increasing or
diminishing within the last few years ? I cannot give a direct answer to that
question ; but, contrasting the trade with the North of Europe upon an average
of the last six years, it appears that the amount of exports to the British colonies
exceeded the amount of the exportation of British and Irish produce and manu-
factures to Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Prussia altogether.
Do you in that estimate exclude Russia ? No.
Do you in that estimate also include those provinces belonging to this country
in North America, from which we do not bring any considerable quantity of tim-
ber ? I•have not included the province of Newfoundland. The trade of Russia in
timber has not decreased at all; for, upon an examination of the facts, I think
that the trade in timber with Russia is pretty nearly as it has been for several years ;
therefore it occurs to me, as far as the trade of timber is concerned, Russia would
not take a larger proportion of manufactures than she does at present.
Do you think this country, in the case of a diminution of the duties, would
take a greater quantity of the superior wood from the North which we now im-
port ? Yes, I think it would.

Will you state, if you have the means of doing it, what is the comparative ad-
vantage derived to the different interests of this country concerned with the wood
trade, to the colonies from that trade ? From looking to the amount of importa-
tions of 1819; I should state that the British shipping interests would take :the
amount of about 630,0001. that the incidental charges would be 84,0001. and that
the amount remaining to the British colonies would be only 168,0001. taking the
&average price of timber at 63 shillings : I merely state that, for the purpose of
showing the respective interests that will be affected by any alteration in the opera-
tion of the trade.

In the statement which you have just made, the British colonist does not ap-
pear to be the person most interested ? No ; the person who will be the most
affected, in whatever way this question may be decided, is the person connected
with the British shipping ; the colonists certainly will very materially be affected
by the question ; they have no other resource but this country to derive their sup-
plies from : if that branch of trade is destroyed, they will neither be enabled to
take our manufactures, nor to pay us for those which they have already received ;
nor will our ships find employment (the number of vessels being so great that
were left on the hands of the ship-owners subsequent to the war) but by this carry-
ing trade of timber.

In the commencement-of your evidence you have stated, that it was impossible
to continue the present extent of British shipping in that trade, because it produced
an extent of supply of American timber in this country, which rendered the sales
very disadvantageous; when you make that statement, how do you reconcile it
with the opinion that this trade can be carried on to its present extent with advan-
tage to the British owners ? I think it cannot be carried on to the same extent
with advantage to the British owners ; but I think if any sudden stop was put to
the operation of the trade, it would affect, very materially, both the colonist and
the British ship-owners ; I state that, because I think, if a very heavy duty was
imposed upon the British timber, it would prevent the importations taking place
to this country ; and they fear it in the colonies themselves, because they have, in
all their letters to us on the subject of this trade, expressed a hope, that whatever
was done they should be made acquainted with it, to have an opportunity of
placing themselves in a situation so as not to be destroyed by the operation of the
trade. In the present year they have a large portion of timber remaining over
the last year's cutting ; and they certainly will be placed in a very unpleasant
situation if any operation was to occur that was to put an entire stop to that trade
which they had been carrying on. I think if any duty was imposed, or any dimi-
nution of duty was to take place immediately, that it would also tend to prevent
the usual supplies going out to the colonies ; I speak practically, because cer-
tainly if any operation was to take place that was to prevent the colonists getting
home the timber they 'have already lying by them, we should not ship the usual
supplies we have been in the habit of doing.
Did you send out to the colonists the report of the Lords committee of the last
sessions ? Yes ; it was sent out, I believe, by the colonial agent.
From what you have stated, then, it is quite impossible, whatever may be the
future views of the British colonists, that they could expect to maintain a trade in
timber to the extent that they have maintained it during the last two years ? Cer-
tainly, it would be injurious, inasmuch as a much larger quantity was imported
than was really wanted for consumption.
If any regulations were to take place, by a diminution of British shipping, or
by other causes, which produced a more regulated importation of the British Ame-
rican timber into this country, would not the British American timber, well
squared and prepared for sale, sell at a nearer proportionate price to the Baltic
timber than it now does ? If timber from the British colonies was regulated
by a duty, sufficient to prevent the importation of the worst species of timber
which comes from the British colonies, I think it would he a corrective of the evil
of which we have now to complain ; for it has been by the introduction of timber
of every description, in consequence of there being no duty at all, that I conceive
the present importation has been so excessive upon the market ; and I conceive
that a small duty will correct that evil.
If the importation, 'then, of American timber were confined to the better de-
scriptions, as you now anticipate, at what proportionate difference of price do you
conceive that such American timber would sell, with reference to Baltic timber ?
I have before stated, I believe, that my opinion is that there should he a differ-
ence of 21. 15s. per load between the relative value of the British American timber
and the timber from the Baltic.

Would not that be with a view to give more of a monopoly in the market, than
to place the timber from the two countries upon a competition ? I think a small
duty would have one bendificial effect ; because it would prevent the ships going
out to the colonies without the intervention of a regular merchant; it would pre-
vent them from taking that supply of ordinary timber which they now take from
necessity ; for when they go out for cargoes to particular ports, they are obliged to
take a supply of whatever qualities may be there, and that has produced an unplea-
sant result in the market, and which exists upon the state of the trade at present.
In 1810 a protecting duty was imposed, in favour of American timber, by
doubling the then existing duties upon Baltic timber, making the duty at that time
41s. a load ; if the duties were now reduced to that rate from 655. what would be
the effect upon the trade with America ? I think if the foreign duty was dimi-
nished in that proportion, we should have no trade in timber from the British
colonies.

[Adjourned till Monday, at one o'clock.

Lance, 19 di‘: Februarii, 1821.
THOMAS WILSON, Esquire, in the chair.
John Bainbridge, Esq. called in ; and further examined.

Supposing a duty of 10s. laid upon American timber, or ss. laid on, and 58.
taken off foreign timber, in your opinion, would that make any difference in the
consumption in the market ? No, Ido not think it would ; if ss. were taken off
foreign timber, and ss. were put on American timber, I think it would produce a
corrective in the exportation of timber from the British colonies, which, owing to
its being brought here in a much worse state of manufacture than timber ought to
be brought to this country, I think it would prove a corrective to its being brought
to this country in an improper state.
Do you man a duty of ss. and a diminution of ss. ? Yes ; if that relative
proportion was adhered to, think a ss. duty on the timber from the colonies
would prevent the importation of very bad timber.
Then the committee are to understand, that it is your opinion that the same
opinion would be produced by ss. laid on and ss. taken off, or 10s. laid on the
American timber, and more taken off the foreign timber ? I think it would pro-
duce no effect upon the general consumption of timber in this country ; I think
the general consumption would be the same.
Supposing 10s. laid on, or nothing laid on American timber, and 10s. taken off
Baltic timber, in either case preserving the same difference of cost, would either
result produce different effects ? I think the taking off 10s. from the Baltic tim-
ber would produce a different effect to the laying on 10s. on American timber.
State the difference. The nearness of the Baltic to this market would give
them a decided preference, if 10s. were taken off that timber, compared with the
distance of voyage, and the expences that we are put to in bringing the timber
from America.

You will recollect, that the question goes to preserve the same distinction be-
tween the two, that is, a difference of 10s. a load, than what possible increased
facility could be given to Baltic timber, where 10s. is taken off, when no-duty is
to be laid on North American, compaied with the state in which the trade would
be in, if 10s. were laid on American, and no duty laid on the Baltic. I think if
you took 10s. off Baltic timber, I should certainly say, as a matter of course, that
the price of the London markets would be 10s. lowa than it now is, and if so,
that it would preclude the importation of American timber to a certain degree.
If a duty of ten shillings was laid on American timber, would not that advance
the price of American timber in the same proportion, while the Baltic would under-
go no material alteration in the quantity imported ? I think not ; 'I think it woutd
decrease the importation of the timber from America, because a large proportion of
the timber now brought to the country would be prevented coming.
Would not that tend still farther to advance the price ? I think it would advance
the' price of American timber certainly, but I think it would decrease the importa-

tion ; lam of opinion that you cannot advance the price of the article here, unless
you decrease the importation.
Do you not think that the duty would fall on the consumer? No, Ido not,
indeed.

Are you acquainted with the various costs of timber in the ports of the Baltic ?
No, I am not.

Can you state to the committee what was the shipping price of timber in the
ports of New Brunswick and Canada, during the last season ? It has varied
excessively in the province of New Brunswick ; during the last season there has
been an unusual scarcity of money in the colonies; during the last season there
has been an excessive depression in their trade from peculiar circumstances ; in
consequence of that depression, timber has been purchased at all prices ; even as
low, I believe, as ten shillings per load, from ten to twenty shillings per load.
Do you think twenty shillings a load a fair remunerating price to the shipper in
the British colonies? Yes, I have been so informed.

You mean by that in tbe New Brunswick colony ? Yes.
Can you state what you consider would be a fair remunerating price for yellow
pine timber shipped from Canada ? We have very little connexion in Canada ;
I cannot therefore decisively answer that question ; I believe twenty-five shillings
per load.
You know that the expenses are much more in bringing timber out ? Yes.
Have you any establishment yourself in the lower provinces ? No ; we are
commission merchants entirely, both export merchants and importing from the
colonies on commission.

Do you not think that commercially speaking, a duty of five shillings on the
American timber, and a reduction of five shillings on the Baltic timber, would be
more favourable to the trade than the imposition of a duty of ten shillings on Ame-
rican timber only? Ido decidedly; for I think that a duty of five shillings only
levied upon the timber of the colonies, would be much more easily arranged, and
prove more beneficial to the general interest of the colonial trade and the shipping.
William Smith, Esquire, called in; and examined.
WHERE do you reside ? In Liverpool.
What business are you engaged in ? As a merchant generally, and as ship-
owner, but principally in the Nova Scotia and New Brunswick trade.
How long have you been engaged in the trade with New Brunswick and Nova
Scotia ? About thirty years.

Were you resident'aiiy part of that period in Nova Scotia or in that country ?
Twenty-two years.

Whilst resident in that country, were you particularly engaged and acquainted
with the timber trade of those colonies ? Very much -during the latter part that I
resided there.

Can you state to the committee, what is the general character given to the
timber of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in the Lancashire market, compared
with that of the other colonies, and also the Baltic ? The quality of New Bruns-
wick timber is superior to Nova Scotia, but inferior to the Baltic.
_ _

Are you acquainted with the fact, whether red pine timber is shipped from New
Brunswick as well as yellow ? There is but a very small proportion of red brought
from that country.
Is the red pine of New Brunswick superior to the yellow ? Yes ; it is of a su-
perior quality.

- Are you acquainted with the purposes for which the yellow pine of the British
North American colonies is in general use in Lancashire; if so, will you have the
goodness to state them ? I understand it is used for a variety of purposes, par-
ticularly for packing cases ; in Manchester, a great quantity of it is used for that
pnrpose; and it is used very much in the inside of buildings.
Are you aware that it is used for other purposes ? It is used for finishing
the cabins of ships, and for purposes of that kind.
Is it used for any part of the work connected with warehouses or cotton fac-
tories? I believe for all parts, except for the beams of those in which
,great
strength is required.

Mien is the committee to understand from your answer, that the timber of the
North American colonies, with the exception of beams, and for other purposes
where great strength is required, is in general use in the county of Lancaster?
I understand so.

Have any instances come within your knowledge of the timber of North America
when so used in buildings, perishing prematurely from dry rot or other causes ?
No ; never.

Have you had occasion to hear of such instances from others ? I have heard of
the dry rot appearing in warehouses and other buildings in Lancashire, but when
examined, it proved to be the timber of Dantzic and not of America.

You are then impressed with the opinion that the timber of the Baltic is equally
liable to the dry rot with the timber of America ? So lam informed.

During your residence in the North American colonies, had you occasion to,
know any instances of the durability of the yellow pine timber of those colonies,
when used for the erection of buildings there ? I know there are many houses
standing in Halifax, that were erected several years before I went there, which is
upwards of thirty-six years ago.
Were those houses built entirely of timber ? Altogether of timber.
Have they undergone any considerable or material repairs ? The shingles and
clap-boards which are used, which are outside, require to be renewed once in
twenty or twenty-five years.
Is not the lower frame or foundation of those houses so constructed of timber,
also of the same material ? The whole frame is of timber, but there is brick or
stone for the foundation.

To what height is that raised ? About four feet.
Then has that part of the frame which is immediately laid on the stone or
brick wall, been found to decay when the other part has not ? No ; I have never
known an instance of its decay.
How long is it since you were in America? I left in 1807.

Have you any buildings of that description in Halifax, which are your own
property? Yes.
Are those built of timber ? Yes ; but they were erected after I went to the
country._

How long is it since they were erected? About thirty or thirty-two years.
Is it your belief that those buildings arc in good and substantial state? I believe
they are.

Will you state to the committee, what is the present value of the yellow pine of
New Brunswick in the Liverpool market? About seventy shillings a load.
Can you inform the committee what is the present price of the Memel or Dantzic
timber in the Liverpool market ? 61. ss. per load.
Are you acquainted with the proportion, that the measure of Liverpool and the
measure of London, with respect to timber, bear to each other ? The measure in
Liverpool contains a greater quantity, by 10 per cent, than the measure in the
London market.

Are both kinds of timber equally in demand at those places ? No ; American
timber is in much greater demand than the Baltic, in the Liverpool market.
At what reduction in the price of Baltic timber do you think it would be equal
in demand with that which comes from America ? I should suppose about 11. ss.
per load reduction.

Is the committee to understand, that, in your opinion, if an advance in the
price of American timber, of IL ss. per load, or a reduction in the price of the
Baltic of 11. ss. per load were to take place, both descriptions of timber would
then be equal in demand ? It is impossible to answer that question ; I think it
would increase the consumption of the one, and decrease the consumption of the
other. If a duty equal to that were laid upon the one, or that much taken from
the other, it would be very injurious, in my opinion, to the shipping interests of
this country.

Are you of opinion, that if a duty. 'of 10s. per load was laid upOn Ame-
rican timber, or 10s. per load taken off Baltic, or ss. laid on the one, and
ss. taken off the other, the demand for American timber would be materially
affected by such an arrangement ? Ido not think it would be much altered in either
case.

Are you of opinion, that were a scale made of 15s. in the place of 10s. and
applied in either of the ways suggested by the last question, that a material defi-
ciency would be produced in the demand of American timber? It would no doubt
lessen the demand for American timber, and increase that for Baltic in some de-
gree • but Ido not think it would have a material effect.
Would 20s. have a material effect ? I think it would.
You think that the point at which it would begin to have a material effect would
be somewhere between 15s. and 20s. ? Yes.

At 255. of course the effect would be still greater ? No doubt it would.
Would 255. have the effect of driving the American timber entirely out of con-
sumption in your neighbourhood No.

Would 3(ls. ? It is used for a great variety of purposes, being soft and easily
wrought, and what difference of price would occasion a decrease of consumption,
it is impossible for me to tell.

Can you state to the committee, at what difference of price, between the Baltic
and the colonial timber, the colonial timber would be still used to a considerable
extent? I think 255. a load.

Do you think that at a difference of twenty-five shillings it would still be used ?
Yes.

At that price do you think that both sorts would continue to be used ? Yes ;
bitt the quantity of American timber consumed would be very much lessened.
But it still would be consumed to a very considerable extent ? Yes ; I think
it would.

Can you inform the committee what proportion the relative consumption of
North American and Baltic timber bear to each other, in the Liverpool market,
at present? No; I know the quantity of American timber consumed, but not
the quantity of Baltic.
Can you form a pretty accurate opinion upon the subject, without detailing the
facts ? No ; I have no idea.
Can you inform the committee .whether the importation of timber into the port
of Liverpool from the North American colonies, has not gradually and materially
increased within the last year ? It has very much increased.
Can you inform the committee what quantity of timber has been imported into
the port of Liverpool from the North American colonies, the last and preceding.
year ? The quantity, last year, was 78,000 tons ; l cannot speak to what was the
quantity in 1810.

From your impression, was the quantity imported into the Liverpool market
ih 1319 equal to the last year ? I think, from the number of the ships employed,
the quantity was about the same.

Are you aware of the present stock of North American timber in the Liverpool
market ? It is about 42,000 tons.

About six months' ordinary import ? Yes.
Can you state to the committee, what has been the consumption or the quantity
sold in the port of Liverpool within the last year ? The quantity sold in the last
year was 81,000 tons.

Are you acquainted with the quantity sold within the preceding year ? No,
I am not.

Are you not aware whether it was less or more ? I should suppose rather less ;
about 23,000 tons less.

Are you acquainted with what was the current shipping price of yellow pine
timber in the colonies of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick during the last season ?
Seventeen shillings and sixpence per load was about the average price below.
Do you think that price sufficient to remunerate the shippers for the costs and

I

I

charges, and to leave them a rmsonable profit ? The shippers complain of that I
price, as being lower than they can afford to do it at.
Will you state to the committee, what in your opinion would be a fair remune-
rating
price to the shippers from those colonies ? I should suppose twenty shillings
a load.
From New Brunswick ? Yes.

Has the price ever been at twenty shillings ? It has been as high as thirty
shillings a load.
Does the price of cutting timber, and bringing it out to the ports, fluctuate ?
No, I should think not, excepting as between a state of war and a state of peace.
'ls there any oak timber shipped from New Brunswick and Nova Scotia ? No ,••
or if any, it is very little.
What proportionate price does the red pine bear in the Liverpool market with
the yellow pine ? There is so little of the red pine which comes to market, that
I almost forget what the price is ; from sixpence to nine pence a foot.
Is the cost of the red pine higher than the yellow, or lower ? It is about twelve
shillings a load higher.
Is that additional cost in consequence of an additional expense in cutting and
bringing it to the shipping ports, or in the first cost of the timber ? In consequence
of the superior quality of the timber, that I consider is the reason why they put
that value upon it, and the scarcity of it.
Can you inform the committee what were the current rates of freights from
those colonies to Liverpool during the last year ? From fifty-two to fifty-five
shillings a load.
Liverpool measurement ? Yes.
• Have any ships been engaged for the present year ? Not that I have heard of.
In what manner is the timber so imported paid for to the colonies ? In British
manufactures and provisions, Irish provisions, salt, articles used for the fisheries,
and for the supply of the people employed in cutting timber.
If the importation of timber from those colonies were materially diminished, would
not the colonies be deprived to that extent of those supplies on which they depend ?
They certainly would ; because they have no other means of making a direct
remittance to this country, but by sending timber.
Arc the persons that are employed in cutting the timber in those colonies, resi-
dents in the colony, or do any part of them come from adjoining districts ? Some
of them come from the United States.

Do they return after the timber is felled to the United States, or remain in The
colonies ? They consider' he United States as their home, and if they could not
get employment in the country, they would return.
Has the emigration from this country to those colonies been considerable ?
Yes, it has ; but the proportion has been small compared with Canada ; I am
speaking of late years.

- Are the persons who so emigrate, employed in cutting or preparing or shippii%
timber in those colonies ?• The people from this country are not so expert in
cutting down timber as the Americans; they are chiefly employed in hauling it
out, and squaring it. _

Have y6ll had to know any thing of the durability of ships built of the
pine of New Brunswick ? Yes, I have had a good deal of experience.
Can you give any information to the committee on that subject ? We have
some ships now, which were built in that country, one of them at present is at
Liverpool ; the Rosina ; built in 1802.

- •
Was she built of the yellow pine ? There is a great deal of yellow pine in her ;
her top sides arc yellow pine ; there is ;little oak in her, which I believe was pro-
cured in that country; but her lower timbers, I mean those which arc under
water, are birch.

During the period that she has been built, have you had occasion to repair her ?
We were under the necessity of repairing her, in consequence of getting ashore once
at Liverpool, but the upper works have not been touched. I had a survey upon
this ship the other day by a shipmaster and ship carpenter, anu the report is, that
the pine timber appears to be perfectly sound, and no appearance of dry rot. The
report is as follows :—" We, the undersigned, have this day gone on board of the
ship Rosina, built at St. John's, New Brunswick, in 1802, and have carefully
examined the pine timber in the vessel ; when we found the same to be perfectly
sound and fresh. We particularly examined her top timbers and bowlock timbers,
also her topside planks, which arc all of pine, and there is not the smallest ap-
pearance of decay or dry rot. Liverpool, 14th Feb. 1821. William Gaskell,
shipwright. William Danson, shipmaster."
For what parts of that ship was pine timber used ? For the upper works, and
I believe the beams are of pine, and the fastenings forward ; the bends, I suppose,
were of pine too, but lam not certain. We never make use of hard wood above
the water, because it soon decays when exposed to wet and dry.
Is it within your knowledge, that the timber and plank described in that sur-
vey is the original plank of which the ship was built ? I do not recollect that that
ship had ever any repairs done to her upper works.
Has she belonged to your house since she was built ? Yes.
Have you any other instances of the durability of ships built at Nova Scotia or
New Brunswick ? Yes; we have a ship called the Comet, now returning from
India ; she was built in 1811, at St. John's ; this is her third voyage from India ;
before she went out we had occasion to open a small part for light, and we
found the timbers perfectly sound. ,
Was she built of the yellow pine also ? Yes, her topsides and timbers were
of hackmatack.
Then is the committee to understand that the timbers and upper works of the
ship, as well as the plank, are of pine ? The planks in her are of pine, and the
top timbers are built of hackmatack.
_ _

Explain what is meant by hackmatack ? It is a species of larch. The next
shij► is the Caledonian ; she was built in 1815, and is now on her fourth voyage
to India ; she was quite sound when last examined.
Was she built likewise at New Brunswick ? Yes.
Do you know of any ships built in England of the colonial pine ? No, Ido
not.

Is it much used in Liverpool for the purpose of ship-building ? I should
think not.

Have you heard any opinion expressed by ship builders in this country, as to
its quality for ship building ? No, I have not, it is so little used ; it is not used
in the building of ships in this country, except for inside works.
Can you account for the difference of opinion which exists in the colonies and in
England, as to its durability ? I should suppose it has arisen in consequence of
many ships having been built in British America for sale, and very little pains
taken in preparing the timber ; that I believe has occasioned many of them to go
to decay very early, anti has occasioned people in this country to have a bad
opinion of them. Those ships of which I have been speaking, were built for
our own use ; they were built under proper inspection, and a great deal of pains
taken in order to have the wood well prepared and seasoned.
Do the merchants of Liverpool frequently build ships of that timber in the
colonies ? There are a good many that belong to the port of Liverpool built in
that country.
Arc they built considerably cheaper there than they can be built in England ?
Very littie.

If ave they not the advantage of a freight home ? Yes ; and during the war
that was a very great advantage.

Do you know what proportion, generally speaking, of red pine and yellow pine
is shipped from the North American colonies to this kingdom ? I should think
the proportion of red pine not more than one-tenth.
The committee understand you to say, that the American yellow pine is not more
likely to suffer from the dry rot than the Baltic timber ? I never heard of the
American pine having the dry rot.
In what respect do you apprehend that American yellow pine is inferior to the
Baltic ? It is not so strong ; it would not bear so much pressure as the Baltic
timber.

Do you think that is the whole reason for the difference of the price ?
Yes, I should think so; the Baltic timber has a great deal of turpentine in it.
Would you not also consider, in some measure, that difference in the price to
arise from the very large supply of the one, and the scanty supply of the other ?
There has been a very good supply of the Baltic, but there has been an over-sup-
ply of the American lately.
From what port in New Brunswick does the timber principally come ? From
St. John's, St. Andrew's, Mirimachi, and several ports of inferior note.
Is Mirimachi in New Brunswick ? Yes.
Does much come from St. Andrew's ? Yes, a good deal, a considerable
proportion.
Are there not large importations of timber from the United States into those
parts ? No ; from St. Andrew's. I believe some small quantities arc brought
from the American side, but it is a very little.
From what part of the country do you suppose the timber sent to St. Andrew's
to come ? From New Brunswick side of the river principally.
Have not those colonies a very considerable trade in timber and different sorts
of wood to our West India islands ? Yes, they have, of small sized timber ;
which they call scantlings and boards.

Have they not a monopoly of those markets, in consequence of the Americans
being excluded from them? I believe they have at present.
Do you know whether there was any considerable stock of wood lying on hand
in the New Brunswick provinces, after the shipping season of last year ? Yes,
there -is a large quantity ; a very considerable stock both at St. John's and
Mirimachi.
What proportion do you suppose that stock might bear to the quantity shipped
last year ? I should suppose about one-half of the quantity shipped last year.
Have not the preparations for cutting timber for this season, been greatly sus-
pended, in consequence of the uncertainty prevailing with respect to the system of
duties ? They have considerably ; I understand there would not be so many peo-
ple employed in cutting this last winter, as in the previous season.
Do you not consider it much for the interest of your trade, that a permanent
system should be fixed as early as possible ? Yes, I should think so ; for people
are all holding back now, from making any preparation, not knowing what mea-
sures are to be adopted with respect to those duties.
Thomas Tooke, Esquire, called in ; and examined.

The committee understand you are in the Russia trade ? Yes.
Are you very generally connected with the timber trade ? Not much.
You arc aware that the trade in timber with the Baltic and with Russia, has
fallen off materially of late years ? lam aware that it has declined of late years,.
Do you attribute that plincipally to the high duties on the Baltic timber, or to
the facility with which the American timber is introduced into this country duty
free ? Both causes operate to produce that effect.
Should it be in the contemplation of government to put a duty on American
timber, say of 10s. a load, should you consider the effect produced by that, or a
duty of ss. on American timber, and ss. reduction Baltic timber, to produce the
same effect ? I should, say the reduction of so trifling an amount would aflbrd
scarcely any perceptible benefit to the one, or any material influence upon the
other ; for practical purposes, I think it is too small a difference.
[To I.e continued.]

LONDON : printed by THOMAS DAVISON, Whitefriars, and published
by W. A. SCRIPPS, of No. 7, South Molten Street, at THE SUN,
OFFICE, No. 1 12, Strand.