The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-19 00:00:00

sent to accede to the prayers of the petitions cf the people cosi They were told, however, that it was too late to act upon
the subject. I think that if we were to say that we w °oil that principle. The Hon. Member for Mantrose had ap-
not support a Church which we considered anti scriptural, th i pealed to him as having, in his early life, been connected
effects would be pernicious in the extreme. In the first plate, with India, and he asked him how he could consistently
the effects would be enormous. We mute go beyond advocate zny exclusive mode of religious instruction ?
this question. —( Cries of " Hear, hear.") We Inuit lie thanked that lion. Member for the delicate manner in
go farther. We must extend it to the colonies. We must which he had referred to one of his relatives nost dear to him
make a firm, rigid, and unbending rule, which in a few —he meant his late father. First of all, then, he did not be-
years would shake your empire to pieces.—( Heer, hear, and lieve that the British Parliament, for good or evil—in respect
great cheering.) Hut admit, for the sake of the maintenam e of the matter to which the lion. Member had referred, and
of the Protestant religion, that such a step should be necessary, to which the lion. Member Om Canterbury hail afterwards
adsait for a moment that we are ready to take all the cons,- adverted, namely, that the Presidency of Bombay had made a
quences—admit that you are ready to do tins—have you any distinct stipulation that the Church of Rome should re-
right, in such a ease, to legislate for the people of Ireland ? tam its privileges—had any authority to interfere. But
Are you not bound to say thi: :---" We engaged at the time there was another question for consideration, which
of the Union to govern Ireland on principles of equality, to was still more important. for the purposes of that
consider Irishmen as we consider Englishmen, to allow them to House, and to which he would advert for a few minutes. The
have the same rights and privileges as ourselves, to consider came Hon. Member who had addressed the question to him
every question regarding the n as a question regarding relative to India said that they had no right to consider any-
ourselves." But then, Sir, if that be the case, it is thing but those mere contents which the Bill embodied ; that
totally inconsistent with the case of your saying that they were not at liberty to consider the necessary conse-
your religion is so exclusively true, that it cannot bear any- quences of their measure, namely, the endowment of the
thing like equality, nor even anything like favour to the great Roman Catholic Church —to consider nothing more than that
majority of the people of Ireland. And if that be so, if such contained in the Bill, namely, the endowment of the Roman
is the strictness of your religious principles, I defy you to step Catholic clergy of Maynooth—that, he apprehended, would be
short until you come to the repeal of the union, to which we a very narrow view of the question. fie woul I call the
are all opposed. Sir, I say, if you do not meet the Irish people attention of the House to the statement made by the
in this way—if you are not ready to fulfil the compact of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He ad-
union not only to the letter, but with all the affection tor mitten' that this 'measure could not be longer delayed,
your countrymen in Ireland which you feel for your country• an expression which he (sir R. Inglis) considered not likely to
men in England—then you should be prepared to say to the I secure a very favourable acceptance among those for whose
people of Ireland, "We will not grant this boon ; we will peculiar benefit it was to be directed. His Hon. Friend the
I not make you this grant, therefore we will give you back your Member for Newark represented himself —( Laughter)—and he
own legislature, and deal in future with your own affairs."— said that they must propose te go further. The Honourable
(Hear, hear.) I own it does appear to me that you have Member for Cork said that this was a great earnest of greater
but one of these two courses to adopt—if you do not agree to things; but, with reference to the Bill itself, he called it a
this proposition for the support of the religion of the Irish paltry educational grant. He ( Sir R. Inglis) felt that it was
people, you must dissolve the (Won ; but if you wish to main- so; it was a renewal of Peter's pence—it was a new tribute to
tain the Union, yoe must treat the Roman Catholic people of the Church of Rome. The Hon. the Secretary of War had
Ireland in the same spirit as sou have considered the Proms. said that this was but the precursor of more. Of mote, aye,
tent people of England.—((soud aheers. ) Well, then, 1 say the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church. lie just
that this is not a question of the mere consideration of a few touched that question, and then at once turned from it.—
thousands a year ;it is the carrying out of an Act of Parlia- ( Great laughter.) Another Member of the Cabinet,
merit fifty years old, and therefore you are bound to carry it the First Corntanssioner of the Woods and Fores's,
out if you are desirous of maintaining the union of the had used the same familiar phrase, and said that this was but
two countries inviolate.— (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") one step. Now, one step must certainly mean a second.—
Remember that we, at this side of the House, have had no- ( Laughter.) Then another Right lion. Gentleman the Chan-
thing to do with the making of this proposition—we merely cellor of the Exchequer had specifically said—nothing.—( Great
say we concur in the proposition. ant are prepared to wee in laughter.) Now ad that he could draw from these conclu-
favour of the second reading of the Bill, and not because, it is sions, conclusions half admitted by the Members of the Go-
a preposition of an exclusively religious character..--( Hear. ) vernment was, that there would be at an after period an en-
I cannot conclude without exproesing my belief that the re- dowment of the Catholic clergy, and that in 1816, or at some
jection of this measure will be productive of the same bitter- future time, the Government would sooner or laser proceed to
ness of feeling that would be certain to follow the rejection of lay some such measure before the House. The Hon. Member
a like proposition if made in favour of the Protestant Church the late Secretary of War (Mr. Ellice) had also stated that
in England.—(Cheers.) If such a proposition were made in they were now embarking on a new course. What
this House, and that I saw a majority against it, yet so con- did that mean ? What, but the endowment of the
vinced am I of its justice that even a majority of my con- Roman Catholic Church; and yet they were told that they
stituents should not deter me from voting in its favour.-- were to consider nothing but what wes embodied in that Bill.
(Cheers.) If we are to go out for the benefit of the A new course of policy was to be adopted--yes. a new course,
country, we are not to yield to every impulse we when they exchanged a small sum fora permanent endowment
may receive ; but we should aen upon a great measure of this of three times the amount, fixed on a similar scale of security
sort, only as men desirous of keeping in view the cause of --namely, the vested civil establishment of the country.
truth, of freedom, and of justice.—(Loud cheers ) The Pro. In a speech made by the lion. Member fur Cork, on the 14th
teetant Dissenters are arrayed here against this Bill ; but 1 April, 1845, he found an allusion made to the anticipated
cannot forget that there was a time when those Dissenters were restitution of property once held by the Roman Cath thus in
petitioners before the House for the purpose of being relieved Ireland. Now, he wished to know if the House was prepared
from what they cone ived to be burdens eon their coascienen to admit the principle involved in this phrase " restitution." If
and complaining of the privation of civil liberty, which worked it began in Ireland, would it end there? No, there were many
a great injustice towards them. We then in opposition urged in that and the other House of Parliament to whom that
that injustice upon the House, and we obtained the concession phrase restitution of abbey and Church lands— ( Hear, hear)—
of the repeal of the Act which afflicted them. Again, the would not awaken most gratefnl recollections, or, at any rate,
Roman Catholics of Ireland were afflicted with civil disabili- which would nut excite pleasing anticipations. But, if it he
ties ; mid the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite acknowledged, just that the Church property in Ireland, which had been held
when he passed the Emancipation Act, that it was owing to by the Protestants and their successors since the
our continued support that those claims were carried. Such Reformation, .should be restored to the Roman Catholics,
was the avowal which the Right lion. Gentleman made at the why should not the same priciple be claimed and acted
end of the discussion on the Bill he introduced for the removal upon in England? If they were to endow the Chu-ch of Rome
of the Roman Catholic disabilities. Now, it was not that we in Ireland, why should it not be endowed in England? There
wished to favour the Protestant. Dissenters, that we sought to was nothing to prevent it, and the House might depend upon
detiver them from their disabilities. It was not to favour the it one would follow the other. They could, perhaps, form a
Roman Catholics that we relieved them from their grievances. better opinion of this measure from the opinions of foreigners,
No, 1 trust, that we so acted upon that occasion, as we have and what was the impression of their continental neighbours?
upon all occasions acted, because the cause with which the Whatever might be said of the leading articles which appeared
Protestant Dissenters and the Roman Catholics were bound in the English newspapers, there was no doubt tho e that ap-
up, was the cause of justice ; and that we carried that cause, peered in the papers of the Continent, particularly those of
not however, without many refusals.—( Cheers.) If we had France, were far more important and influential, because they
not acted then without reference to the particular expression of were generally written by influential statesmee. And what
opinion at the time, the Protestant Dissenters would not have said the Journal des Debats on this measure ? Why, it was
been thus relieved. If the Roman Catholics now find that we this, " The measure of the Prime Minister of England is
have not the power to help them the whole of their grati- neither more nor less than a revolution of the policy pursued
tude will be turned towards the Government which has pro- by England since the Reformation. It is the greatest conces-
posed this measure.—(" No," from Mr. Hedinnton• ) My sion yet made by the Protestants, without excepting the
Hen. Friend says " No," but, with the exception of the Hon. Emancipation Act of 1829• And such oas the feeling of the
Member for Dundalk, I believe, the general feeling will be as great body who had forwarded remonstrancet against the mea-
I state, and I am not surprised at it, for it is the common sure. They did riot object to their Roman Catholic fellow-
course in political events. If the course I am to pursue were subjects enjoying equal civil rights with them, but they still
solely founded on the support of this particular measure I thought the measure they were discussing would lead
should not repine ; and Ido not repine; it is the °pity course to another of a more important character, and even-
I could adopt ; it is the one, that in public life can be tolerated tually result in the downfal of Protestantism.—( Hear. )
to act as we think in each situation we shall best advance the Yet if by this series of measures they were led to embark in
great interests of our country—( Cheers)—and to take our one which woul t occasion the endowment of the Roman
chance whether we obtain favour or distil our. Catholic Church, then he thought that the House ought to be
" Nor love thy life, nor Late ; but what thou liv'st very careful to what they assented. He wished to ask his
Live well, how long or short permit to Heaven." Right lion. Friend whether this was the end or the beginning,
—( Loud cheers ) This aentimei tis as applicable to political whether this was simply to authorise the education of 500
as to natural life, and for myself I would rather retire into young men, or was it to go on to the endowment of the Roman
private life, I would rather leave the business of this House to Catholic Church ? He would ask whether there was any ul-
others, who may possess the people's confidence, than attempt terior measure! in contemplation, for he thought that if a great
to injure this country by giving a vote against a measure statesman had been four years in the uncontrolled possession of
which I think the welfare of my country demands.—( Hear.) power to go on with such a question as this he would have
Sir, then my belief is, that this measure, as proposed, is chalked out for himself some particular course. He had been
likely to be received gratefully in Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) surprised to hear the other night the Right Hon. Baronet the
You may say that their gratitude will be misplaced—that it Secretary for the Home Department, when this measure was
is a paltry favour. lam not to judge of that. But lam to under consideration—he was surprised to hear that Right Hon.
judge of the effect—the real effect—which this measure will Baronet say that he could not see the propriety of taking the
produce. I will not take it as if it were the last of a series, funds from the existing establishment in Ireland. This was a
and were the crowning act of a long course of justice to the curious phrase to come from the lips of the most determined
people of Ireland. No, Sir; I shall maintain, as I have hi- opponent of the Appropriation Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Was the
therto maintained, that with regard to the civil and political most powerful excitement which had prevailed since the Re-
privileges of the people of that country you have yet touch to form Bill to be disregarded? He could not look at this as a
do—( Hear, hear)—that those measures to which the Right has'y question. It was of little matter to him who sat on the
Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary alluded last night, fall con- benches on one side of the House, and who on the other. But
siderably short of that which the people of Ireland have a right if they considered the petitions, almost without number,
to require of you, to put them on an equality with the people and then looked at the general expression of the feeling
of England.— (Hear, hear.) I think with respect to their of the country universally, firmly, spontaneously expressed
ecclesiastical state, that that great anomaly of a large en- on this question—he could not but perceive that if this measure
dowed Church for a small minority of the people is an evil were carried it would be carried against the desire of the
which, without entering into the ways in which it might be whole of the Christian people of the country. lie would tell
remedied, Parliament must consider.—( Hear, hear.) I will the Right Hon. Baronet that he had lost the good will of the
not concede that opinion. I will not deny that after this mea- people of England. This was not like a mere political affection,
sure is passed I shall either in support of some proposition whiles you might gain to-morrow as you lost it yesterday.
from others, or in my own proposition, endeavour to obtain They had given him their confidence because they believed
for the people of Ireland that justice which I think was that he had a regard for the great institutions of the country.—
long and cruelly denied to them.--(Loud cheering.) If (Hear, hear.) But he could assure him that in dis.
you will permit me for a few moments longer, I would beg of appoieting these expectations he had forfeited the
this House to consider how much this country has been in- confidence of the people--( Herr, hear)—and in losing that
jured, how many administrations have been disturbed and rent confidence, he had lost the power of governing them, and in
asunder, by these Irish questions.—( Hear, hear.) I will not losing that, he had lost the source of his political power. lie
go back to any very remote period, but going back to the time would refer to the Hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Gladstone),
of the union, I find that Mr. Pitt, then in the height of his to the determined and energetic Member fur Stockport (Mr.
power, had decided upon an Irish question, and that an Cobden), and he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether
Irish question broke up the Government of Mr. Pitt. Mr. on any of the great questions to which they. were committed, they
Pitt intended a union between the two countries. He in-- had either of them yielded their principles? In the course
tended, as far as can be discovered from his subsequent speeches, which he (Sir R. Inglis) had taken, he had compromised
in addition to that union, a complete relief from civil and nothing, and he hoped that he should be able to maintain that
political disabilities for the Roman Catholics, and a rovision course to the end. The Hon. and Gallant Commodore thehis
Ministry the Roman Catholic Church.—(Hear, hear. The Member for Merylebone had appealed to his
the Gal-
followed
Ministry of Mr. Pitt fell, and his firm Administration was fears. In his own profession it was well known that
him in
justice and his
by the weak Administration of Mr. Adding:on. lent Officer had never known fear, and he would tell
doin
Mr. Pitt afterwards returned to power, but he did not retutn return, that on this occasion he was
with his former partners, with Lord Grenville, and others, him justice, and he fait that he need riot entertain fear.
who agreed with him upon the Catholic question, He begged to assure the House that he now regarded t
Hon.
back and who did not agree with him in coming great ,question of Protestant principle, ready .to
whatever otherfelt
ea..
back without the question of Catholic Emancipation being Members might think to the contrary, and while he
proposed to Parliament. his administration was strong for a tisfied on that point, and that he saw his
way
it fur there were men of the highest abil.ty in it. In 1807 course he was about to take, he would act and vote, in
it was broken, it fell upon an Irish question—a Catholic ques- he had already announced, perfectly regardleas of consequences.sloue
lion, especially affecting Ireland. You had then an adminis- For he looked upon the discharge a his duty h
iantd he would
tration formed on the ground of refusing all concessions; that upon that question as of paramount importance,
is
to conclude
way clearly. theint the
did not last many years, and Lord Castlereagh declared it was leave consequences. to Providence. He "w
begged motion of
necessary that some concession should be made to the Roman by saying that he most heartily concurred with the _ ,
Catholics. In the time of war, when this country was threat- his Hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle.—(Hear,.
d at the
ened with peril, or when it was not in danger from Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I trust we have now arrive
foreign wars, the Catholic question was opposed or supported. close of this discussion—a discussion which has been protracted.t
has not
This state f things was continued from 1812 to 1829, and to a period unusually, and unprecedentedly long, but i
to devote to it,
heir.)
the Catholic question weakened every Administration that was occupied near the time that it was necessary
carried on in the meantime. We have had the spectacle of considering the vast magnitude and importancenoftthee s.eu.bis'etee,
Secretaries of State opposing each other on questions the most under discussion, and the sentiments elicited i It el Is
' e
important and vital to our domestic policy.--( Hear, hear.) In In the course of the debate it has been my goofdtlhoertsuunhe.eteot
18E4 you had an Administration which contained many Mem- listen to sentiments and feelings which the nature o
bets opposed to the Catholic claims, but in 1829 those claims naturally called for.—(Cheers.)
were conceded. In 1830, in consequence, as I think, Honourable Members, declaring theyoss of their
very much of the decision upon that question, the Ministry to pursue, even at the hazard of
theside of the House
was broken up. Earl Grey came into power—the seats. I have heard many Members on this
bile I have heard
Reform Bill was carried. The Ministry who car- expressing their approval of the measure,
w any conscientious,
ried it had at first an immense majority in the many more, actuated no doubt by feelings eV
aasnsnuroeunthcionsge
House of Commons. Everything was easy because declaring that they differed from the former,
permitting party
it was a strong Government. In 1834 that Ministry the course they intended to pursue, wit
was weakened and divided upon the question relating to the or political considerations to interfere.
those at whose hands
not long after Earl Grey himself retired from office. That oppesition I have encountered,
I
hoOnenathe other hand—l now
state of Ireland. Four members of the Cabinet seceded, and Honourable Members that, however deer ply I may regret the
Ministry before long ceased to exist. Another Ministry was I have met it.—(Loud cheers.)
I must say that the example
formed, and dissolved by a vote of this House on a question speak of both sides of the House
such— as is highly honourable to
affecting Ireland. A view Ministry came in in 1835, during of those Hon. Members
live - and just ; and I have no
In consequence of what had taken place in 1834, they believed it to be
trait' i
such
conduct is highly
the whole course of their existence having a small majority. them, because no doubt theyis have pursued that course because
the whole course of their existence of power was hesitation in
bothsaying to
I begatnod
t those who have supported, and
weakened and crippled; but it was owing to a honourable
opposed the measure, for, in adopting that
decision with regard to the state of Ireland, a difference of opi- those whoehaby
k of their political station.—( Hear, hear. )
ing that country, that they were weakened—( Hear, hear)— tl ris
to this time, abstained from making any observation
nion with regard to the measures they had brought in respect- eoieurs.e, th relinquishingeopp anger of their constituents, and have run
I have taken other occasions, and I will still take other occa- 1 have, up..
by the observations .1 have heard during the
ex-
bates from 1835 to 1841. But what I want to show now is, cited within rise,
sions to refer to the particular questions involved in those de- upon this discussion, and whatever feelings may have been d
-hope that this House would not be
scarcely a year in which Governments have not been weakened, feeling of deep interestaonf
that since the time of the Union till 11345, there has been debate, they have been overpowered by, and merged into, one
this House who have hitherto
this measure.—( Hear, hear.) You
and Administrations formed and destroyed upon questions in a party to the rejectionte
surprised that this measure should not
some degree relating to the Roman Catholic religion and to will not, perhaps,
as the firm friends of the Roman Catholics '
without any reference to war, or any other contingency, if you been known
the state of the people of lreland.—( Hear, hear.) Why, have emanated those in
that those who have brought it forward
can see that you can proceed by any measure to tranquillise of Ireland,
or.
forfeited your confidence.—( Hear, bear.)
twhhaitehcournarttriye—s
gtheanteriafilyyomu
acyansgh,iete_onupaonny
which
he oyfoupolmicayy inet sHheoultdhathavase
Ifolbloewg theyeu rejection t may, all I will say is, if weThave
of Oxford tells use:that we have
you will add immeasurably to the strength of this country.— you may think fit,
.1)
length come to some concord on questions relating to Ireland, forfeited the cOnfidendee)eroiyfvetnhuitisstseoildfleouoffisfetth,hiwdHjiiltsohiruoedsogoreana,wriidß:uf.yatnohtriuhoesrhnisoecoutmoosnteshfieaao...s
'oonly of the gareasttisarty we had in
otfhe
(Loud cheers ) Is this question—is this short review here deuce from us, but übte dvsoeurrnsneioottytt
given—a view of the question that has been taken by the pe- quences that will
titioners who have carried their petitions to the table of this sure.—(Loud cheeuerns.i
House—have they considered this question in reference to the Member foe th
to
power and strength of this country ? If not, let me beg of forfeited the confidence,
them to consider—differing fiom them, with respect for their this House, but alsoen
thinkNv
will
le will
ore powerful
virtue and their strong acme of religion which makes them ap- party out of it.conditioncof Ireland,
but i sense of public duty proach this House—let me, at the same time, if, in considering and to the course Ifhich this debate has taken, I
this question, I have ventured to use my own independent admit that nothingcould induce her
one who looks fairly—
have incurred,
of " Hear,
judgment—let me attempt to vote in favour of a Bill which Majesty's ministers to incur the risk which we
may tend, in some degree, to heal those stilt bleeding wounds, and are incurring.—(Criesanhear.") It cannot
and to place Ireland in that position which she ought to be— be doubted by Y.
nduct, that we have been • governed by a
the most improving, if not the most happy part of her Ma- say wisely to our
tube
eo the
e one confidence
looks
interests and to conciliate the f g
jesty's dominions. '
The Noble Lord concluded amidst leud wish to promote t.,
(Cheers.) In 1843 there feelings
of
and prolonged cheering. the Irish people . was a formi-
' Ireland. There were immense
Sir R. INGLIS said that of all the important speeches dable excitement in
and peace ofthis meetings—
which he had ever heard he considered that of the Noble Lord threatening to the tranquillity whole country
We determined
the Member for London the most important.—( Hear, hear.) —or even of the empire to resist that move-
Thedeeermined to
Noble Lord avowed to the House that there were other meet—(Cheers)—we check it—e(Cheers)—
would be 'none acceptable to the people of Ire- but we did not see any necessity.
giveand there was none—for
measures which to extraordinary
lag t. It had been objected to the petitions presented to the calling upon the Legislature powers.
to
promote
h thosethe
House against
this measure that the persons from whom they We resisted all the incitements. hasty and precipitate action,
eofthts
established that the
came did not un 'eratand the doctrines of their own Church. but when a case was public peace was
d upon the jun.i •
But he would defy
.any Gentleman to show any statement in in danger, we retiejustice of the case,and
ofthe Constitution.
the numerous petitions which had been presented to the House enforced the powers There was at the
that if we did not
on this question, which was not supported by the time a universal feeling
And the
We
vindicate the law
ehlef
o.hrnamovoeueurtslei s t ened intendedt o
which we now
doctrines of the liturgy and the homilies of the Church. we should be accused of
He and the Hon. Members who supported him in that question, measures which we havesi
since taken,
calculated to '
repudiated in the most earnest manner the supposition that propose, have been_
Ireland. happiness, and
formed any part of the question, at the same time that to conciliate the affections,
money
he was willing to admit that an increase of funds might make an fore, the objections. do not come from the English
ministers,
engine that might otherwise be poweitleesnoownrful in mischief. or those interested in the
the maintenance of the Pof the people
rotestant cause.
that time, whether
--( Hear, hear.) Still that was n their objectioe to the in- —Olean
ofit was that
hear')
more lively recollection
crease. Their objection was tothe principle of the measure. you had a the state cf
I know not, but
But then they might be asked the question so repeatedly put Ireland in 1843, you did almost
of a measure brought
in that House in the course of
onth
thtis
subject?
What do yo ea unanimously approevsed
y permitted, sanctonedin beydthe Govorn-
mean by your religious scruples
He was not 1 went, which r
esP Roman Catholic Bishops and to
_encouraged
scandalously, and ludicrouslyinconsistent. No. 'they I the endowment of
grossly, money for the building ofCatholic
could of a sum of money to a prin. the advance of , Roman
did riot support a grant
.h ers.)
eagle which they could not recognise as founded places of worship.—(L e Well, but if you did that, why
to be revived now ?
not inconsistent, for they did net pro- are rel • iious objections .
co_
(Cheers.) You
in truth. They were
rinciple in which the (I'd 'appointed five Roman Catholic mmissioners (there
y I not. were. ten
mote the support of that p
' by the House app y
five necessary
' He had been permitted
it to make the . Commissioners
.PP
believe.
and he would make
as ertion often, .
• le of doing that which his conscience con- ' mission were defrayed out of the public funds ;we did that in
upon the principle
his votes were given accordingly. Ile order that we should institute and encourage a voluntary en-
dured right, and
the teachings of his conscience, dowment of the Roman Catholic
dared not compromise
had
beenled
_._. be.
his • hbonr
discretion of the C with
Crowe, respect to the
cause neighbour