The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-10 00:00:00

peth. The Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to read the
extract, which was to the effect that he (Mr. Wyse) trusted he
had placed before his Lordship the true character and bearing
of this case, and the necessity of establishing a series of pro-
vincial colleges in Ireland, and at the conclusion the Hon.
Member said that " for his part, sensible as he was how very
little attention his opinion was entitled to, still he would say,
that this would be the greatest boon that could be left behind
by any Government. '—( Hear, hear.) This is the Ho-
nourable Member's opinion on this important ques-
tion, and I fully agree with him. I am decidedly
of opinion that if this House should give its sanction
to this proposition, it will be a measure that wilt be most
favourable to Ireland, in a moral and social point of view,
upon the condition of the people of that c ountry.—( Hear. )
It will have the effect of increasing order, peace, and virtue in
Ireland, which should be the great objects of all civil govern-
ments.—( Hear, hear.) I was taunted with my want of
success in proposing a measure of this sort on a former occasion.
I am aware of my inability, as an advocate, to deal with a
question of such importance. I call upon the House to give
this measure their general support and co-operation, without
reference to religious or political distinctions that may exist in
Ireland. I have endeavoured to state both fully and fairly the
nature of the measure. I have wit left out any particle of the
case. I have stated all the difficulties which exist with a strict
sense of justice and prepriety.• I have nothing more to say
than to thank the liouse for the patience with which it has
attended to me, and to move for leave to bring in a Bill to
i•nable her Majesty to endow colleges for the advancement of
education in Ireland.

The motion being put,
Mr. WYSE said that he was aware that it would be im-
proper to press upon the attention of the House any observe-
tens upon the object of her Majesty's Government, but, as he
was for a long time connected with the discussion cf this ques-
tion, he might be permitted to make a few observations upon
the various parts of the measure which had been submitted to
them. He thought it was unwise and dangerous to the social
condition of this country to grant so much money for the edu-
cation of the lower classes without raking equal provis'ons for
the education of the middle and higl er classes of the commu-
nity. The improvement of the 1 reseat system over the old
was quite manifest, and it was r o little satisfaction to know
that, not only were there a large number of children educated
in these national schools, but the education given to them was
infinitely superior to that which the country had previously
given to them. Hitherto, the chief obstacle in the way of ex-
tending this system of education was the religious differences
which existed in Ireland, but he was rejoiced to say that
these obstacles were gradually melting away. —( Hear, hear. )
He considered that, along with elementary schools, there ought
to be intermediate schools between them arid the colleges,
somewhat analogous to the grammar schools in this country.
Such schools, if established, would be best calculated to supply
with pupils the proposed universities or colleges. The Go-
vernment had given its assent to 32 model schools for Ireland,
and it would rest with the Board of Education to give to them
proper efficiency, in carrying out the object for which they
were instituted. After alluding to the great necessity of care
being taken, in the educational institutions about to be esta-
blished, that re religious intolerance, or religious sectarianism,
should be allowed to interfere with the primary ends for which
they were instituted, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to show
the importance of giving to these schools an industrial cha-
racter. They ought to be put in possession of a more superior
character in this respect, than any they now had. There
ought to be an organisation in each of the col-
leges, dependant upon the particular localities in which
they were established, and in each of them there should be
be a mining department for training the youth in a knowledge
of the important branches connected with the mineral kingdom,
and through which mining and geological explorations could be
undertaken throughout Ireland. There ought also to be an in-
dustrial museum established in Dublin, in which there could be
collected every kind of specimen, whether mineral or otherwise,
for the information of the student, and under whose superine
tendence those geological expeditions could be conducted. By
these means the young men could be trained in civil engineering,
and be made to acquire habits of industry, energy, and perse-
verance, and be made conversant with the most useful and im-
portant branches of practical science. Through these arrange.
ments a substantial meddle class might be formed in that
country, and a great amount of general good diffused. In ad-
dition to a central museum in Dublin, large museums ought
also to be established in other parts of the country,
not only for the use of the students of the colleges,
but accessible to the inhabitants, in connexion with
which there might be carefully selected libraries. For
these purposes her Majesty's Government should give
buildings and afford the nucleus of each establishment, leaving
their extens'on and improvement to the liberality of the
public. He would not go into the payment of professors,
though he considered, as those colleges were to be establish-
ments for the public at large, the system of lodging and
boarding shon'd not be allowed to become a system of profit
and abuse on the part of the heads of those establishments.
No observation had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet re-
specting what remedies he intended to be applied against those
who might engage in theological discussion, whether they
were to be placed in the hands of the superiors of the col-
leges, or to proceed direct from the Government itself.
Without some efficient arrangement of this sort, he was satis-
fied the colleges would dwindle into mere places of popular
lecturing, and the Government be under the necessity of
suppressing them altogether, or else entirely remodelling
them. He thought that, ultimately, a greater number of col-
leges ought to be established in the country than the
three proposed at Belfast, Cork, and Galway, though he
considered that number would suffice for the present. He was
of opinion that Galway, Cork, and Belfast, were judiciously
selected as the sites of the three Colleges proposed, but in ad.
dition he considered there should be one established at Dublin.
He did not mean that it should be established in opposition to
the University of Dublin, but as an industrial seminary for the
accommodation of that part of the country. He as a Roman
Catholic, was as pleased at seeing institutions endowed for the
education of Protestants or Presbyterians, as he was at the
support given for the College of Maynooth. His only regret
was, that the sums to be applied for these purposes was not
large enough. With regard to the constitution of these semi-
naries, he should like to see an aggregation of them, something
like to the University of London, which was made up of a num-
ber of colleges, and it might be called the University of Ireland.
He was of opinion that sooner or later such a course would
have to be adopted. With regard to any competition that
might be supposed to arise between this University of Ireland
and the University of Dublin, he did not apprehend much fear.
Such competition he considered would not be very successful.
The University of Dublin was an old and much respected semi-
nary of learning, and had a prestige and a name to suppert it,
which a new institution could not hope to have.
By the Act of 1793, to which the-Right Hon. Baronet had
referred, the principle had been fully laid down that Trinity
College in Dublin should be opened to both Roman Catho-
lics and Protestants. 'f he opening of the Dublin University
to all these parties would only be extending the Act of 1793.
At present the University of Dublin was under the govern-
ment of its fellows, and he saw no reason why this principle
of government should not be extended, so that in the ag-
gregation of colleges throughout Ireland their members
should have the power of management. The carrying out
of the proposed principle need give no alarm to Protestants,
Presbyterians, or Roman Catholics, for it would only be carrying
out the intention of the foundation of Elizabeth,which was brought
forward as an act of justice to the Roman Catholics, for the
educational institutions they had been deprived of at the period
of the Reformation. Trinity College was by no means one of
an exclusively ecclesiastical character, hut it was said May-
nooth was exclusively confined to Catholics, and, therefore, it
was urged that the Dublin University ought to be exclusively
confined to Protestants. His answer, however, to this was,
that the Dublin University was not solely an ecclesiastical
'foundation, but it was an ecclesiastical and lay foundation. In
his opinion, therefore, the college ought to be thrown open
alike to Catholics as well as Protestants. Now, he would let
the Dublin University have the control of all those
colleges, and he thought the present state of the
university was favourable to the adoption of such
a plan. The measure of the Government, if properly
carried out, was highly calculated to draw out the energies of
the people, and give that intellectual tone and temper to their
minds which had been so long wanted. In future years, Go-
vernment might depend upon it, their present policy would
enable the Irish people to contribute to the wealth and in-
fluence of this country, and there could be no doubt this mea.
sure would leave grateful recollections in the minds, if not of
the present race, at least of those who should come after them.
Mr. ROSS expressed his great gratification at the state-
ment of the Right Hon. Baronet, and confessed that it would
go far to remove the differences which had for some time existed
in the College of Belfast. The proposition, he was sure,
would give universal satisfaction to the people of Ireland.
Mr. BELLEW agreed with the Hon. Member fur Waterford
that it was extremely desirable that a second university should
be established in connexion with Trinity College, for the ad-
mission of persons of all religious denominations, without in-
terfering with the rights of that institution. With respect to
the-principle of endowing colleges in the manner proposed by
the Government, he begged to draw the attention of the
House to the opinion of the Catholic clergy on this subject.
The Catholic ;clergy to a man were opposed to any State en-
dowment as far as they themselves were concerned, but nothing
would be more acceptable to them than endearments for the
education of the people.
Mr. T. B. ROCHE was glad the Government had
brought this measure forward, because it would act as a safe-
guard against revolutionary outbreaks. He was a repealer,
hut nevertheless as much opposed to the undue invasion of
democracy as he was to the undue domination of an aristocracy.
It die not strike his mind that this grant of 18,000/. a year, and
100,0001. was sufficiently comprehensive. It did not go half
tar enough. It was not systematic, because there was no con-
necting link between the national system and this collegiate
education. Ile thought that there should eithee be a second
university in Duelin, or they should throw open the one which
already existed. It was proposed to establish 32 model schools,
but the funds for them were to be taken out of the funds ap-
propriated for the national system of education. This was
taking away the funds which were appropriated for the educa-
tion of the poorer classes, in order to give an elementary edu-
cation to the middle classes. But he was ready to acknowledge
that the measure, so far as it went, was one of promise and of
hope for Ireland.—( Hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS said, that though the principle involved
in the present measure was one of universal and paramount
importance, he was desirous of hearing the Members from
Ireland express their opinions upon it before be delivered his
own. The principle of the measure was one, however, not
of Irish interests, but of imperial and national importance.
Did he rightly understand his Right Hon Friend to say, that
there was to be no distinct religious instruction in the insti-
tutions which in the name of her Majesty he now proposed to
the [louse ? ( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Those cheers ac-
knowledged the accuracy of his impression. There was then
to be no religious instruction in those colleges. He would
ask the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, who was, perhaps,
better acquainted with the history of education than any
Member of that House—(Air. Wyse)—whether he could
point out a single instance in the history of England, in
which a national institution connected with education had
been endowed by the State, except upon the principle of an Es-
tablished Church, whether thst were the Church of Rome
or the Church of Scntland, or the Established Episcopacy of this
country? There was no instance of such an institution which
was not based on religion, which was the great and important
a interest, o e ofssh
this life
next.be Never
c a use twtailsi tthhei
sp9rtoh omi sfeAof
ay,
f th eliir4es, terhnaadl
hpii
an attempt been made to establish such an institution. He
knew that there were two such instances in this country, but
he might call them amateur institutions, established according
to the peculiar taste of cert. in individuals. One of those was
the London University, which he heard, indeed, called by an
ether name.—(A laugh.) But those %este not instances in
point. Little did he believe, twenty years ago, that a measure
like the present would emanate from the present Government,
or that the principle it involved would receive their sanction.
He knew that his Right Hon. Friend would not sanction such
a principle in his own family, and if so, he did not see why he
should adopt it for those who were equally under his cnntroul,
and for whom he (Sir R. Inglis) held that he
was equally responsible.—( Hear, hear.) He did not
details
without
ot fthemfrom
o
even know if moral philosophy was to be taught in those in-
stitutions which were to be established in Ireland; but what
was= the value of moral philosophy if not based on:religion ?
A more gigantic scheme of Godless education was never pro-
posed in any country. And was it not the boast, or, at all, o
events, the distinctive merit claimed for the: measure by his
tTeg Right Honrd
of Friend,
God?
d t institutionsot gointo the
w ere tn be
; bu
measure, because when the principle of the measure was so
bad, the details became comparatively unimportant
the plaudits with which certain parts of his Right Hon. Friend's
speech were received by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he thought