The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-20 00:00:00

THE BUN, LONDON, MONDAY EVENING, MAY 20, 1844.

may at the same time greatly exalt the character of
the party to which the retiring Ministers belong. It is
a great mistake that division in politics is weakness. An
honest division of opinion, not fundamental, is much more
frequently an accession of strength, because character
is strength, in public opinion ; but compromise is
always weakness—for whether dishonest or not, it
looks like honesty. We could have heartily de-
sired that upon the occasion of Lord Ashley's late
proposition, every Member of the House of Commons
had voted according to his own conscientious judgment,
the effect of which would undoubtedly have been to leave
the Ministry in a minority, and remove them for a mo-
ment from office ; but it would have been for a moment
only. Without a dissolution of Parliament the Con•
servative majority would have insisted upon the resump-
tion of office by a Ministry that had achieved so much
for the peace, the wealth, the prosperity, and safety
of the country ; or with a dissolution, the present
Conservative majority of 100 would have been about
doubled, by reason of that very stand made for the la-
bouring classes by the Conservatives in Parliament.
Lord John Russell, Lord Howick, and the other
Whigs saw this, and they hedged, as the jockey's
phrase is, in contemplation of the possible appeal to
the country ; we will not give any more charitable con-
struction to their pirouette, because we do not find one
of them offering amends to the memory of the great and
good man who commenced the work of protection,
and whom they persecuted for doing so—Michael
Thomas Sadler the only man of whom we know
anything that ever deserved to go before Lord
Ashley. To have out-voted Ministers on the
factory question would have done no harm, but a
great deal of good, to the Conservative party; but what
possible good can result to the Conservative interests
from the attempt to run down the Conservative Cabinet
—the best Ministry, too, that the country has had for
half a century? Will abuse of Sir R. Peel's Govern-
ment tell in tavour of a Conservative candidate on the
hustings, or anywhere else? And, next, we would have
our readers to remember the parties who urge them into
a course prima facie so unwise.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT
(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Their Lordships assembled at Five o' Clock.
Messengers from the Commons brought up several
Bills.

The Bishop of CHESTER presented several peti-
tions against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and
Bangor.
Lord CAMPBELL presented several petitions
praying the House to legalise Presbyterian mixed
marriages.
LANCASTER AND CARLISLE RAILWAY.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a
petition . from the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway
Company, praying their Lordships to facilitate the
progress of this Railway Bill through Parliament.
Lord BROUGHAM did not wish to interpose any
unnecessary delay in the progress of this Bill. He
must say, however, that it was rather a novel pro-
ceeding on the part of railway jobbers to present
a petition to their Lordships, praying their Lordships
to interfere between the two Houses of Parliament
when a conference had taken place between
them on the subject of some particular Bill. He
would just state generally the facts of the case to their
Lordships. He had consented to abandon his
opposition to the Lancaster and Carlisle Rail-
way Bill upon certain conditions. Had it not
been for those conditions, he would have op-
posed the pill in every stage in both Houses
of Parliament, and he would have devoted himself to
that opposition, and he would have done nothing else
but oppose the Bill for a period of six months.—
(Laughter.) His Noble Friends laughed, but let
them be placed in the same situation, and they would
find it no laughing matter. It was no laughing mat-
ter to be driven from your own home by a railway
being brought so near to that home as to make it
quite impossible to remain there—to be driven from
that home in which your ancestors had dwelt for up-
wards of 900 years. He had waived his objectionito
this Bill for the public good, upon two:conditions. One
of these conditions had been performed, the other had not.
It was very well to say that the condition had not
been fulfilled, because the House of Commons would
not consent to it. He'could not yet discover in what
way the opposition to the clause had been raised in
the other House of Parliament. Indeed the Right
Honourable Speaker had assured him that the
clause was very much talked of in the House
before it was discussed in the Committee.
He had bargained with the parties to the Bill to
withdraw his opposition, on condition that he
should have the clause, and it was of no use for them
to say that the Commons would not agree to it. He
should therefore oppose the Bill, as they had taken
away the condition on which he had taken away his
opposition. Some of the members of the Company
were most respectable men, and his friends, and in-
capable of any fraud. But some one connected with
the other parties had procured the fraud to be done. He
would ask their Lordships, how would any of them like
a jobbing railwaycompany to cutthrough their grounds,
to keep a waste all round their domains for three or four
years—to drive them from the mansims, and castles,
and villas, in which their ancestors had been domi-

ciled for centuries—and to have their privacy broken
in upon by hordes of labourers from every part of the
United Kingdom ?—(Hear and laughter.) Still he
had pledged his word that, on condition of obtaining
the clause, he would withdraw his opposition. But
he would not consent to be trampled upon by any
Company, because they were many and he was but
one.—(hear, hear, and laughter.)
Lord CAMPBELL said that the opposition of his
Noble and Learned Friend might be very proper,
and the clause might be very justifiable. But the
opposition to it, as he understood, was grounded on
the fact that it had been introduced, not in Commit-
tee, but upon bringing up the report, and that with-
out notice, so that it was passed sub silentio. It was
on that ground, as explained to their Lordships in
the conference, the House of Commons threw out the
clause.—(Hear, hear.) Ile was sure that no ore
could suppose it was thrown out to disoblige his Noble
and Learned Friend, for (as he said unfeignedly) no
one could think of disobliging his Noble and Learned.
Friend, who was so courteous and obliging.—(Laugh-
ter.) The objection to the clause was, that it ought
not to have been inserted without notice.

• Lord BROUGHAM said that the objection to
want of notice was groundless, inasmuch as the other
parties had assented to the clause.—(Hear, hear.) For
his part he had rather throw out the Bill than accept
the clause.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE wished to ex-
plain why he had presented the petition. He had
taken no interest in the measure, but as the
petition was placed in his hands he had
thought it his duty to present it. He under-
stood the facts to be, the Railroad Company
had no objection to the clause, but that the Com-
mittee of the House Commons looked upon it as in
the nature of an amendment upon a Turnpike Bill,
and therefore rejected it because it had been intro-
duced without notice as required by the standing orders.
He thought this so great and important a railway
that it ought not to stop because the House of Com-
mons would not 'pass an Act to amend a turnpike
Act. He hoped his Noble Friend would have no ob-
jection to discuss this subject to-morrow or Thurs-
day. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving
that the petition should lie on the table, and that the
reasons of the House of Commons for disagreeing
with their Lordships' amendments should be printed.
—Agreed to.

Lard BROUGHAM presented a petition from a
place in Lancashire in favour of the Roman Catholic
Charitable Bequests Bill.
_ _

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY seeing the
Noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty in his
place, wished to know whether it was the intention of
the Government to withhold this year any grant for
the purpose of putting the harbour of Port Patrick
and Donaghadee in a proper state of repair. If that
harbour was not to be kept up as a packet-station, it
ought at least to be put in a proper state of repair, so
as not to endanger the lives of her Majesty's subjects,
and if it was not so the fault would bb
with her Majesty's Ministers, of whom it would be
said that they would not expend the paltry sum of
8,0001. to secure the lives of her Majesty's subjects.
The Earl of lIADDINGTON said that this sub-
ject had excited a great deal of interest. Last year
when his Noble Friend put a similar question to him,
he stated that it was not the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to take any vote for
the improvement of Port Patrick, as the
Government believed that they had done
enough towards the construction of the harbour.
Since, however, his Noble Friend had given him
notice of this question, he had made inquiry, and he
found that a communication had been made to the
Government, and the result of that was that the Go-
vernment had altered their former determination, and
they now intended in the course of the present ses-
sion to take a vote for the purpose of dredging the
harbour of Port Patrick and Donaghadee.
The Earl of GALLOWAY expressed a hope that
steamers of great power would be placed upon this
station.
After
a few words from the Marquis of DOWN-
SHIRE the subject dropped.
(LEFT ammo.)

USE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW WRIT.

HO

On the motion of Sir J. CHETWODE a new
writ was ordered for the borough of Buckingham, in
the room of Sir Thomas Fremantle, who, since his
election had accepted the office of Secretary at War.
The IVhitehaven Railway Bill was read a third
time and passed.
SHEFFIELD, ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE, AND

MANCHESTER RAILWAY.

On the motion that this Bill be read a third time.

Mr. ESTCOURT said, that an arbitration clause
had been introduced into this Bill, which, if pzssed,

he thought would establish a dangerous precedent.
He would, therefore, suggest that the third reading
of the Bill be postponed for a fortnight, in order that
a person might be sent down to Ashton, by the
Board of Trade, to settle the disputed point, and that
a clause founded upon his report should be in-
troduced into the Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE, as Chairman of the Com-
mittee, was inclined to agree with the Hon.
Gentleman in this proposition, inasmuch as
he believed that the substantial object for which the
Committee had been appointed had been accomplished.
The simple question was how the land which the
Company were not about using should be appro-
priated. He was obliged to the Hon. Member for
bringing the matter before the House, and
also thought that his views were the best and
soundest that had been taken of the matter.
After a few words from Mr. PARKER and Lord
GRANVILLE SOMERSET, the third reading was post-
poned for a fortnight.
The third reading of the Ashton and Staleybridge
Railway Bill was likewise postponed for a fortnight.
DUBLIN AND CASHEL RAILWAY.
Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from the
Grand Jury of Dublin, in favour of the line of Rail-
way between Dublin and Cashel.
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to move that as much of
the Fourth Report of the Select Committee on Rail.
ways as related to the alteration of the 33d Standing
Order be adopted by the House. The adoption
of this proposition was a matter of great importance
to all parties connected with railway property.
In proposing the repeal of that part of the Standing
Order which related to deposits, he by no means
wished to cast the slightest imputation on the Stand-
ing Order itself. When made, it might have been the
best which the House could adopt, and he had no
doubt it was a wise and salutary provision.—(Hear.)
Its operation had been this, that money was advanced,
and so far the House had a guarantee that the scheme
of the parties connected with the Bill were acting
bond fide. But, with regard to the persons by whom
the money was to be deposited, the Standing Order
was not complied with, for the money was principally
advanced by persons interested in the new
scheme who .had the command of • :capital
The standing order was passed with a view of dis-
countenancing unsound speculations, but it operated
also to check those speculations which were sound in
themselves, and at a time when trade was depressed,
when it was rather desirable to stimulate undertakings
of this description. So far as regarded those periods
which were not periods of active speculation generally
the reduction of the deposits would produce almost
unmixed good. It might be asked what security had
they except from the deposits. His answer was,
they did not propose to do away with
the deposits altogether, but to reduce them
and the great advantage of deposits was not so much
in their amount as in their being deposits of any
amount. But bethought it would be necessary that tl.e
House should take some measures to make a more
strict examination into railway Bills than heretofore
—that they should look more narrowly into the
public reasons and objects of such Bill than
they were previously accustomed to do—(Hear)
—because he admitted that if it was probable they
should continue for future years to abide by the same
unregulated proceedings with regard to railway bills,
which prevailed to a great extent up to the present
time, the proposition which he now made, although it
might be deserving of adoption on some grounds,
would, on the whole, be liable to grave;objections.
Ile was not now prepared to explain in definite terms
the precise nature of the measure to which he referred,
because its precise nature was now occupying the
anxious attention of the Committee to which that
House had delegated inquiry upon the whole subject
of railways ; but' he did say that some measure for
the examination of railway schemes was requisite, and
it was because he believed that proposition to be in-
disputable, that he ventured to put it to the House
that they might proceed so far as to part with a cer.
tain portion of the security which they had hitherto
possessed. The proposition which be now made to the
House would have the effect of assimilating the rule of
the House of Commons to the rule which subsisted in
the House of Lords, and he had beer, apprised on good
authority that that rule was not adopted by the llouse
of Lords without mature consideration, which he
thought an additional recommendation for the adop-
tion of his proposition. lie therefore begged leave to
move that the standing order No. 33 be rescinded.
There was another matter to which he wished to refer.
It had been suggested that the parties, instead of being
obliged to deposit money should be allowed to deposit
Exchequer Bills or other public securities. It ap-
peared to those parties that they were obliged to
leave money in an unfruitful state when it was thus
deposited. But there was nothing in the Act of
Parliament which should prevent the invest-
ment of those deposits in the, public secu-
rities after the deposits had • been made.
He did not think it would be expedient that Parlia-
ment should require the money to lie without pro-
ducing interest, because that would be imposing a
pecuniary fine. Such was not the case as the law
stood at that moment, and therefore the Committee
l.ad not made any recommendation.
The Clerk having read the order at full length,
Mr. HUME said he had listened with great
attention to what had fallen from the Right lion.
Gentleman, but, looking at the evils which the stand-
ing order was intended to prevent, be had great
doubts as to the propriety of abrogating it. He was
not aware, from the notice, of the extent to which the
Right Hon. Gentleman intended to go. He confessed
he did not see why greater facilities should be afforded
to speculators of this kind than to any others. It
had been proved before the Committee that one
hundred labourers had received five shillings each
for signing five different names, subscribing
5,0001., in order to make out the list for the
prospectus. That was by no means a solitary case.
Now he could not see any inconvenience, when a rail-
way was to be constructed, in having the
subscription lodged in Exchequer Bills. He thought
that 10 per cent. was not a large sum to deposit. He
had doubts as to the propriety of making these ex-
ceptions in favour of Railroad Bills. He asked that
before assent to this proposition the evidence on
which the Committee had determined should be laid
upon the table. He thought this discussion should
be postponed until the evidence should be before the
House.
Mr. LABOUCHERE dispaired of being able to
add anything to what had fallen from the Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Trade. He
agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that
when these undertakings were little understood it
was right to have 10 per cent. deposited, but now
that they were better understood such a regulation
was no longer necessary. At a time too when so
many persons were wanting employment, it was es-
pecially desirable to encourage these undertakings.
He could confirm the statement of the Right lion.
Gentleman that the subject had been fully discussed
in that Committee before the recommendation had

been agreed to.
Sir R. PEEL admitted that the House was not
bound by the recommendation of the Committee, but
still when they had appointed a Select Committee,
although their recommendation was not binding on
the House of Commons, he thought it was at least
entitled to the respectful consideration of the House.
The Committee was composed of gentlemen ad-
mirably qualified to decide upon the subject,
and who had the advantage of deliberating upon
it; but lie took higher ground upon this occa-
sion. The carrying of this motion would materially'
facilitate the passing of the Bill for the construction
of the Dublin and Cashel Railway.—(Hear, hear.)
This railway had been undertaken without any
Government grant. It had been undertaken
by persons of every party in politics. It was of great
importance that the example set in this instance
should be encouraged. It would tend to give employ-
ment
to the labouring classes in Ireland ; and he
hoped, before the close of the session, that the Royal
assent would be given to a Bill for the formation of a
railway between Dublin and Cashel.—(Cheers.)
Mr. VERNON SMITH wished for the postpone-
ment of the discussion ; he thought the reason given
by the Hon. Gentleman ought not to influence the
House.

Mr. GLADSTONE said the recommendation did
not extend to more than three or four lines.
Mr. R. FERGUSON said that keeping the order
es it at present stood was a practical fraud, and he
proved that it did not afford the slightest security.
After a few words from Mr. MASTERMAN,
Mr. lIUME replied—He had heard no answer to
his objection, and he should, therefore, take the sense
of the House on the question.
Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman had mis-
understood him; he had not supported the recom-
mendation for any specific Bill, but for the advantage
it would give to the formation of railways in Ireland
generally.
Mr. WARBURTON supported the motion for the
postponement.

Mr. IIUME thought the question ought to be ad-
journed till they got the evidence taken before the
Committee printed. The Hon. Gentleman moved,
that the debate be adjourned.
Mr. GISBORNE thought if the question was put
off upon the ground stated by the Hon. Member for
Montrose, it would have the effect of putting it off till
the end of the session. He hoped the House would
at once agree to the resolution.
After some observations from Mr. HUME and Mr.
GLADSTONE, the amendment of Mr. Hume was with-
drawn, and the motion was agreed to.

SAVINGS' BANKS.
Mr. IIUME gave notice that he would to-morrow
ask for returns relating to savings' banks and Go-
vernment annuities.
Sir R. FERGU SON moved for a return of the
expense of each district lunatic asylum in Ireland for
the year ending the 31st of March, 1844, showing
the total annual expense, the annual average expense

of each patient, the number of patients from each,
and the sum charged to each county in the year ;
also of the number of patients in each on the first
day of April, 1843, the number admitted, the number
discharged, distinguishing those discharged as cured,
as relieved, as harmless and incurable, and the number
transferred to workhouses ; the number who have
died, and the total discharged, the number in each
on the 31st of March, 1844, the number to whom
admission was refused, and the average number in
each asylum in each year ; also of the total
expenditure in each asylum in the year,
the total cost per head per annum, the
expenses in furniture, bedding, and linen, the expen-
diture in fixtures, additions, and alterations, work-
men's bills, &c., the total expenditure in clothing,
the total expenditure in salaries and servants' wages,
the total expenditure in food only, the cost per head
per annum for food, the cost per head per week for
food, and the cost per head per day, all calculated
from the average number of patients during the year ;
also of the particulars of each salary and servants'
wages, and the total.amount of the same for the year;
also of the number admitted into each asylum be-
tween the opening and the 31st of March, 1844, the
numbers discharged or recovered, the numbers dis-
charged or taken away by their friends as relieved, or
harmless and incurable, or transferred to workhouses
within that period; the number of relapsed cases,
and the number who have died within that period,
and the total number remaining in each asylum on
the 31st of March, 1844. The Hon. Baronet also
moved for similar returns from the Cork lunatic asylum;
and also a return of the number of insane persons in
each workhouse in Ireland, on the 31st day of March,
1844, with the estimated annual expense of each, and
the total in public lunatic asylums and workhouses
in Ireland, on the 31st day of March, 1844.—Ordered.
Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite if he had any objection to lay on the table
of the House the correspondence between the Ame-
rican Minister and the British Government, relative
to the annexation of Texas to the American
Union ? The Right Hon. Gentleman would perceive
that the whole of that transaction took place in con-
sequence of the interposition of Great Britain with
Texas with respect tOrAlavetry.
Sir R. PEEL was not prepared to lay on the table
of the house any correspondence with respect to any
treaty which had been 'signed. relating to the annexa-
tion of that country.
Mr. HUME did. not want the correspondence re-
lating to a treaty having reference to the annexation
of Texas. What he wanted was the correspondence
which related to putting down slavery in Texas.
Sir It. PEEL wished to know if it were good po-
licy just to publish at the present moment that
which had been published by another Government,
and which could answer no good purpose. He thought
it objectionable on principle, unless they were pre-
pared to follow up the example which had been set
them by another Government.

Sir R. INGLIS wished to get some information on
the order in which the business of the house would
be taken. He was anxious to know when the Dis-
senters' Chapels Bill would be brought on?
Sir R. PEEL said it was impossible for him to
say on what day the Bill would come on. He was
anxious to make as much progress as possible with
the important measure which was to be founded on
the resolutions which he would move that night, viz.,
The Bank Charter Acts Bill. He therefore, thought
that any discussion which might be taken
on the Dissenters Chapels Bill, should be taken
on the second reading rather than on any
stage, and he would not take the third reading before
Whitsuntide ; with respect to any further arrange-
ments which would be necessary with respect to
Government Bills, he, would make them after Whit-
suntide.

be in conformity with the original principle, and should
be reserved if the bullion amounted to one-third of the
totol issues. There was another point of great im-
portance connected with the issues of the Bank of
England, to which he did not advert on the last occa-
sion. The question was, what was the definition of
" ?"—(Hear)—whether did it include silver as
well as gold, and whether the Bank could issue notes
or silver as well as gold. It appeared from the returns
made by the Bank, that with their bullion meant
silver as well as gold. Should they include silver in
the amount of bullion upon which it should be lawful
for the Bank to issue notes, this was very important.
They had not entered into any engagement with the
Bank on the subject, so that they were
perfectly free. He knew their strict and rigid ad-
herence to the principle laid down would confine the
issue of notes to the possession of gold alone. If they
limited the issues to the possession of gold alone, it
would not necessarily deprive the Bank of the posses-
sion of silver, because the Bank might appro-
priate a portion of the banking funds to the
possession of silver ; and while silver in its
banking department ; but as this would give no re-
turn, he thought it was hardly fair to expect the
Bank would accede to it, however enlightened
their views might be. If they prevented the
Bank issuing any portion of their notes upon silver,
they must expect the Bank would hold very
little silver for the public accommodation. He
had given some consideration to this subject, and
he believed that considerable inconvenience must arise
if they altogether prevented the Bank from issuing
any portion of their notes upon silver. He was not
now speaking of any compromise of the great principle
that gold was the only standard. The only legal pay-
ment by the Bank should be in gold. If a
person presented 50/. in notes he should have a right
to demand fifty sovereigns in gold, and if he took gold
of the real standard weight, he should have a right to
demand notes in exchange. The transactions of
the public with the Bank so far as gold
was concerned, should be perfectly unrestricted,
making a reduction of about Id. difference
in the gold to be delivered in exchange for
notes, and the gold to be received from the Bank
upon the demand of a person presenting the
notes. That was to say every person
Should have a right to sell gold to the Bank, and.
demand payment in notes, receiving 3/. 17s 9d. per
ounce for gold he presented, and that he should have
a right to demand gold in exchange for his note,,
receiving at the rate of 3/. 17s. 10d., thus allowing
11d. for the expense of coinage. Of course he pro-
posed to make no alteration whatever in that respect.
Every man was to be unfettered in his right to de-
mand gold in exchange for his notes. But the ques-
tion was, should he permit partial dealing with
the Bank with respect to the receiving of silver. He
hoped the country would not admit the substitution
of silver for gold, but at the same time they
wore exposed to the inconvenience which arose
from other countries adopting silver as the standard.
At present the silver was sent out of this country
in exchange for gold, and the gold was deposited
in the Bank. If they would permit the Bank
to pay those who were willing to remove it,
silver, when the Bank thought it expedient to
do so, the charge of that export and import would be
saved. There was another reason why silver should
not be altogether excluded. Remittances were now
made to a very considerable extent from America
and China in silver. If they prevented the Bank
from issuing silver altogether, there would be no
demand for it in this country, and it must
seek a market in foreign countries. Then,
again, there was a great facility for conducting
universal transactions with some parts of the world,
particularly with India and China, in borrowing a
stock of silver. If a party had the option
of getting silver from the Bank, he would be
enabled to get remittances when they were necessary
from India or China, instead of having to send to the
continent for it. It appeared to him that it would
give facilities to commerce, if they permited the Bank
to issue some portion of its notes upon silver, treating
silver as a valuable commodity, to be dealt with
accotding to the option of the Banh. Silver had
now ceased to b 2 a standard of value alto-
gether. Formerly ss. 2d. an ounce was the
Mint :price for silver, but there was no reference
now to that standard. Their silver coin was a mere
token, and ss. 2d. an ounce did not at all designate
its value. The amount of legal tender was limited
to 40s. ; at the same time he thought there would
be a great advantage in having a stock of silver
in this country which would be used for the rectifi-
cation of the exchange. He was inclined to propose
that the Bank should be allowed to issue a portion of
its notes upon silver, but that the amount upon which
it should so issue notes should not exceed one-fourth
of the amount which it issued upon gold ; that the
Bank should issue notes upon four millions
of gold and one' million of silver. But
then if the Bank found it necessary to increase
its supply of gold, it must itself be responsible for the
loss sustained in the conversion of the amount of silver
into gold, because no legal demand on the Bank could
be satisfied in silver, the Bank must, therefore, run the
risk of the loss sustained by its conversion. Still
requiring that gold, and gold alone, shall be received
in payment of a debt—still maintaining the great
principle upon which this measure was
founded, be proposed to give to the Bank
this advantage in rectifying the exchanges, and to
merchants for making their remittances to
India and China, and other places, which he
feared must be given up if they rigorously per-
sisted in confining their issues of gold, and gold
alone. He would now proceed to other parts of
his explanation, which referred to joint-stock banks
and private banks. He proposed that every bank
which had, on the Gth of May last, the privilege
of issuing notes should continue to exercise that privi-
lege as long as it thought proper.