The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-25 00:00:00

' necessary and permanent source of that distress which almost
every page of the West Indies recorded, was to be found in the
institution of slavery. Yet it was to the abolition of this very
institution that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk)
traced this distress.--( Hear, hear. ) He hoped that the Right
Hon. Baronet would consult the Noble Lord to-morrow on the
subject, in order to ascertain whether or not he had changed
his views.—( Hear, hear.) Lord Belmore, Governor •General
of Jamaica, in a parting address to the House of Assembly, said
the distress which existed resulted from that policy by which
slavery was established, and the island would never develop
the abundance of its resources till slavery was abolished. The
Right Hon. Gentleman at the Head of the Government had
said in his (Mr. Villier's) hearing that the experiment of the
abolition of slavery had answered in a more striking manner than
any great experiment ever made. They knew that some islands
had flourished since the abolition of slavery—that is to say, they
had not said that they did not.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
In Barbadoes it was notorious that the people wished for
low wages ; that they were well off ; and that the island
was fieurishing. His Honourable Friend had shown
that the proprietors were suffering from their own neglect ;
and now that they feared the abolition of protection, they
began to tax their wits to see whether they had not wasted
their energies and the resources of the country, by resisting
improvement and neglecting vigilance in the management of
their estates. The Governor-General reproached them with
neglecting improvement in past times ; and they were all now
considering what could be done to remove that reproach. If
he were not mistaken, the Hon. Member for Cumberland
had entrusted to a member of his family the superintendence
of his own estate, whom he had never thought of
sending out until lately. He believed he would confirm the
statement that every species of fraud was practised by the dis-
honest agents of absurd proprietors.
Mr. JAMES said he did not know that.—(hear, hear. )
Mr. VILLIERS—WouId his Hon. Friend the Member for
Cumberland say he had discovered that his relative might as
well have stopped here ?
Mr. JAMES—No, no.
Mr. VILLIERS had asked three gentlemen connected with
the West Indies whether it was the fact that they had been
cheated in that island. They all said that it was, and gave in-
stances to prove it.—( Hear, hear.) Why, it was no uncom-
mon thing for the agents to represent to the absent proprietors
that their estates were in such a critical position that unless they
sent out money to enable them to cultivate them, it would be
better that they should be abandoned ; and there had been in-
stances in which, after representations of this kind, the estates
had been sold, and the agents, or their relatives, had become
the purchasers. He had- been told by a gentleman last year
that there was every species of waste, and that there was no spot
in the globe where sugar was cultivated in so barbarous a manner;
and that lie had such a confidence in the island being im-
provable, that instead of abandoning his own West India estate
he had sent out the brother of the head of a great mercantile
firm in the City to superintend and cultivate it. Now, he
asked them to consent to his Hon. Friend's proposition, in
order to effect a permanent and satisfactory settlement of this
question. They heard in that House an abundance of profes-
sions of solicitude for the poor ; a vast deal was said as to
the dreadful condition in which they were placed. —( Hear,
hear.) They saw a number of charities advertised
in the newspapers for relieving the extreme necessities
of particular classes. Now here :was a distinct practical pro-
position, by adopting which they might diminish the cost of
the article of sugar to the consumers, and extend great advan-
tages to the industrious classes by the extension of trade. They
had now an opportunity of doing a great practical charity.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed the next week a large portion of
the aristocracy were going to dance in the cause of the
needlewomen.—(Laughter.) There was to be a grand
ball for the relief of that class of society.—( Hear, hear. )
Now what was the extra cost paid by such persons, as well as
others, on account of this sugar monopoly ? Why every week
this metropolis alone paid 40,0001. more for sugar than they
otherwise would do ; for the whole country the extra amount
was not less than 50,0001. By adopting the proposition be-
fore the House, they would, besides diminishing the price of
sugar, increase trade and commerce, and thus benefit the poor,
for whose welfare they professed to be anxious. He did think,
then, that they were justified in bringing this matter before
the House, and that the country would expect on that oc-
casion to get something more than that conventional
indifference which was generally exhibited when a
motion whirls was really important to the pub-
lic interests, was brought under their consideration. They
had heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir R. Peel) that
the army was three times larger than it need be, were it not
required fur the protection of the colonies. Well, then, it
appeared that these colonies did not pay for their own govern-
ment. Every one must be aware what a cruel service was that
of the West Indies. Why, the Secretary at War had actually
refused, on one occasion, to make a return of the mortality of
the regiments employed there, alleging that the details, if
published, would so horrify and shock the English community
that it would be dangerous to the public service. It might be
that these islands were of such importance as to justify the out-
lay on their account ; but let it be understood that it
was for the purpose of protecting these islands that the
people were called upon to make a sacrifice of 32,000,0001.,
besides a million more for the army. He would ask whether
that presented the colonial dependencies of this country in a
very favourable light; and whether, when such was the case,
it was not necessary to give some very powerful reason why
the people should be mulcted, he might almost say cheated, in
order that money might be poured into the pockets of the
colonial proprietors ?—(Cheers.)
Mr. W. MILES said it was an admitted fact that the West
India colonies had for several years been suffering great distress.
A fair remuneration was all the West India proprietors asked
for, and all they expected to have. The Hon. Member for
Manchester seemed to think that it was very easy to make a
fortune out of an estate in the West Indies. That was not the
fact, which the Hon. Member might discover if he would take
an estate there. He (Mr. Miles) regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet did not intend to propose the continuance of the
duties for a longer period than to July 1846, and he trusted the
Right Hon. Gentleman would re-consider this point. With
respect to the motion before the House, he would say, that
seeing the large expense to which this country was put in sup-
porting a force for the suppression of the slave trade, he thought
it would be most unwise and impolitic to admit slave-grown
sugar at an equal amount of duty as that produced by our own
colonies, or that manufactured by free labour in s foreign coun-
try. Ile had always supported the principle of protection, and
he thought the West Indies ought to be treated as an integral
part of the empire, and protection ought to be given to them ;
and if protection were given to them, he did not see hew it
could well be less than that proposed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment. If the experiment of Coollie labour succeeded, the
West India proprietors would not only have a reduction in the
price of labour, but also have a sufficient supply.
If this were so, then he did not see why
the West Indies should not be able to send as great a supply of
sugar, and at as cheap a rate, as any foreign country employing
slave labour, for he believed that a free labourer would accom-
plish more than a slave, even though that slave were kept under
the lash of the slave-driver. All the West India proprietors
required was a fair day's work for a fair day's wages. He
trusted that her Majesty's Government would not depart from
that line of policy upon which they had hitherto acted.
Lord HOWICK next addressed the House. He said he
hoped that the House and the eountry would observe that the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down—a great West India
proprietor—and the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke before
him, being a member of the Government, had both explicitly
and distinctly admitted the fact which had been alleged on that
(the Opposition) side of the House, that the existing system
of protective duties must be regarded as a tax on the people of
this country to the extent of 2,300,0001. (Cries of " No, no.")
This remarkable fact had been distinctly admitted.—( Cries of
" No, no.") Hon. Gentlemen said no, but he appealed to
those who had heard the speeches to confirm what he had
said. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-president of the
Board of Trade commenced his speech with an argument
which had become so hacknied on the Treasury Bench
that it was hardly worth while to reply to it, viz.
that this was merely ass abstract resolution. No
matter what were the terms of the resolution. lie thought
no man who had listened to the debate could mistake the real
intention of the motion before the House. The object of it, as
he understood, was to reduce, and to reduce at once, the duty
on foreign sugar to the same rate as the duty on colonial sugar.
He confessed that he would have preferred the question being
submitted in a Committee of Ways and Means. But after all,
the terms in which the question was brought before them was
of little consequence. He, for one, distinctly supported this
motion as a motion for equalising the rates of duty on foreign
and colonial sugar. It had been urged on his side of the
House, and not one argument had been brought against it,
that the effect of the proposed measure of her Majesty's Go-
vernment was to raise the price of all colonial sugar 10s. at
least beyond that which it would pay when sold to the con-
sumer. If that were not the object, he was at a loss to under-
stand on what ground they proposed a differential duty. From
what he could gather from the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite, it was admitted that sugar could be produced in foreign
countries SOs. cheaper thee it could be produced in the
British colonies ; and, therefore, they in.posed a duty of 103.
on every cwt. of foreign sugar; so that on the 230,000 tons of
colonial sugar, 101. per ton was imposed on the price
to the consumer. And when he heard Gentlemen call
that a system of protection to British industry, he was at a
loss to understand it. He had been informed, a few days ago,
and he believed already some change had taken place in the
market in consequence of the announcement of the measures
of her Majesty's Government. He had been told, a few days
ago, that Brazilian sugar was sold at 18s. 6d., while colonial
sugar, of a precisely similar quality, cost 265. Now it was
quite obvious that 26
tons of foreign sugar at 18s. 6d. a
cwt., and 181 tons at 26n a cwt.
r,hat was to each cost
precisely the same amount, viz., 4811. That
say, that the produce of British labour of the value
of 4811., would exchange for sugar in bond for 26 tons of Bra-
zilian sugar, and only 18/1 tons of colonial sugar. Now it
must be recollected that these two sugars were precisely of the
same quality; and if the duty were the same, the price to the
consumer would be the same. The British manufacturer,
therefore, if fiscal regulations did not stand in the way, might
in exchange for his goods to the amount of 4815., get, not 181
tons, but 26 tons of sugar. And yet this simple matter of ex-
change the manufacturer was not allowed to enter into. Fiscal
regulations stepped in the way of British labour, and com-
pelled
Now he (Lord Howick ) would ask Hon. Gen-
tlemen who had discussed the Factory Bill,
obtain
26him tons.to take only 18i tons of sugar when he might
and had advocated
the right of property a man had in his own labour, whether they
o
were consistent in supporting the proposition of the Govern-
ment ? Why did they not allow the labourer to get as much in
return for his labour? The evils of the present system were felt
by all classes of the labouring population. The Right Hon.
Baronet had told them last year that the Brazilians were so
unreasonable as not to admit our goods on favourable terms, un-
less we took their goods in return. He had told them that' if
we would consent to admit their sugar on the same terms as
colonial sugar, they would offer no obstacles to the admission
of our manufactures. It was, therefore, clear that the abo-
lition of the distinction in the duties on sugar, would extend
our commerce, and stimulate the industry of our manufacturers.
he drew tighter the protection it al-
If the Right Hon. Gentleman got rid of the monopoly of sugar,
lie would do more for British agriculture, and other branches of
rßerai,tvishpoisnsdet:ssetdry., tshhuaenifwould be the advantages of simplifying
the measure; and this advantage need not be purchased by any
sacrifice of revenue. By consenting to accept those advan-
tages, they would guard the revenue from that heavy loss which
the Right lion. Gentleman proposed to incur._( Hear, hear. )
The Right Hon. Gentleman calculated the direct loss to the
revenue by the measure he submitted to the House at no less
a sum than 1,300,000/. He (Lord ) believed the Right
Hon. Baronet greatly under-estimated the loss. lie believed
the Right lion. Gentleman's estimate of the probable receipts
for the ensuing year would not be verified; but assuming it to
be correct, if they admitted foreign sugar at the same
rate as colonial sugar, this heavy loss would be covered,
if net immediately,
at least in a short time.
They would thus at the same time confer great
benefit on the consumer, and not cause any loss to the
revenue by the change•—(Hear, hear.) But he knew they
were told that this measure would be unjust to their colonies.
Now ho would be glad to be informed in what respect it would
be unjust. They had already paid no inconsiderable amount
on account of the colonies. They paid the whole expense of
the civil and military cost of the colonies in the first instance,
already, why should they
( Hear, hear.) Now when
they colonies
and in the next they made a large grant for the purpose of
education and for the magistracy, and the bishops were paid
out
of
pa
be called on to pay a further sum in the way of protection ?
When it was said that justice to the colonies required this protec-
tion, he should like that those who talked thus would go a little
further, and explain for what particular class justice required
that this burden should be imposed on the people

the complaint had rather been, that too wages hail been
given on account of the great difficulty of obtaining labour.
It there were any West India gentlemen in the House, is ho
had the misfortune top esess large estates in the West Indies,
they must have been also surprised to have heard the same
Hon. Gentleman declare that they ought to be in a more
flourishing posit on now than they were in former times.
Whatevcr the Hon. Member might think, there was no doubt
hut that of late this bilk drawn upon West India proprietors
had greatly exeeeded in ameuut the produce of their
estates. But he believed in the present year, from the
information he had received, that the sngrr would be s
much more superior to what it had been in former years, that
the planter was likely to derive a profit. The Hon. Member
for Stoke-upon-Trent said the condition of the Weal India
proprietors was becoming worse and worse every day ; and the
best thing they could do, therefore, was to abandon their pro-
tection altogether. Now, be should like to ask the Hon,
Member for Manchester, and the lion. Member for Stoke-
upen-"! rent, what could be the result if such a course were
adopted? Why Cuba would have a monopoly in the British
cat ket ; and the British itelonies, widish formed an extensive
market for the manufacturers of this country, would be ruined.
But this was riot all ; they would hold out an encouragement to
slavery, and all the efforts which had been made for the last
six years to destroy this abominable traffic would be rendered
utterly useless. Now, he would ask Hon. Members
whether it was wise or politic, for the sake of get-
ting sugar a little cheaper, they would destroy so
important an interest as our N% est India colonies?
Unless they continued a protection to the West India colo-
nies, they would throw a monopoly of the supply of sugar into
the hands of the growers of Cuba and Brazil. It was too bad
to turn round on the Wert Indies, and say that these colo-
nies had always been a drag upon this country, which, for their.
mon-po:y, wis obliged to pay two or three millions a-year out
of the peekets of the artisans and labouring population unneeos •
sarily. It would be infinitely better to say, as the lion. Mem-
ber for Bath had maintained, that it would be to the advantage
of this country if the as hole of the West India islands were
blotted from the map of the world. Ile was certain that was
not the opinion of that House with regard to colonial posses-
sions.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. Gentleman talked about the
export trade of this country. He ( Sir G. Clerk) wished the
Right Hon. Member would look at the returns annually laid
before them, and see how large a proportion of the fifty-six or ,
fifty-eight millions of their exports went annually to their co-
lonial possessions—( Hear, hear)—including the East Indies, the
West Indies, and their North American colonies—
( Hear, hear.) He thought the Honourable Member
would find that one-fifth of their whole exports were ,
taken by the colonies.—( Hoar, hear.) And let them recollect
that this was a trade secured to them—a trade that was not
liable to any interruptions by misunderstandings with foreign
nations, from jealousies on their part, exhibited in the exactions
of foreign tariffs ;—( Hear, hear )—it was a trade carried on by
and with the subjects of this country, and they must recollect.
that it was by the possession of that colonial empire that they
were alone enabled to secure that commercial marine which
was the foundation of their magnificent navy, and which
enabled them to keep that navy in such a state of efficiency as
to maintain their maritime supremacy. No nation that had
not the advantage of holding distant possessions would ever be
able to keep up a naval marine on the scale and extent which
made our navy so efficient a defence of the empire. Instead of
the West India colonies being such a drag and incumbranco on
this country as to induce them to wish to see them blotted from
the map of the world, he contended that the loss of them would
be an injury to this country, not confined to the loss of trade
with those islands, to the amount of two or three millions an-
nually, bat that loss would strike a blow against their maritime
power anti supremacy from which the nation could never recover.
Now, the Hon. Member for Manchester had stated that their
imports from the West Indies hail fallen off, and that
their exports to the \Vest Indies had not increased.
Bat the Hon. Member had taken a year of great
colonial prosperity, and compared it with a year
of remarkable depression. They had legislated till the
consequences of that legislation had been that the produce of the
West India Islands had fallen off from 200,000 tons of sugar an-
nually to 100,000 tons; and it could not be but the exports of
this country to those colonies must have fallen off also. On the
principles the Hon. Gentlemen opposite themselves held, the
colonies could only give for the exports of this country
the articles they themselves produced; and if the pro-
duce of the West Indies had diminished one half, it
was only remarkable that the exports of our manufactured
goods consumed there had not fallen off in a much larger pro-
portion.--( Hear, hear.) But he (Sir G. Clerk) trusted that,
in proportion as the West Indies improved in condition, and
were bettrr supplied with labour, or the emancipated negroes
themselves applied more diligently and regularly to the cultiva-
tion of the estates, they should see a great increase in the pro-
duce of those islands, and as a consequence, an improvement in
the export of manufactures from this country. The same
causes had operated against tins introduction of machinery into
the colonies to the same extent that would have taken place
under other circumstances. The Hon. Gentleman opposite
had said that the West Indian proprietors had no inclination to
improve the process of sugar making, so as to reduce the ex-
pense of the manufacture ; he said that no attempt had been
made to introduce machinery, and he would have induced them
to believe that the steam-engine had never been heard of ; but
he (Sir G. Clerk) rather thought that as long as thirty years
ago machinery was extensively used in the Wert Indies—
( Hear, hear)—and he had visited a very extensive manufac-
tory on the other side of Westminster-bridge, in which there
was not only one, but a whole establishment full of steam-
engines prepared for the West Indian market—( Hear, hear).
There was a total want of capital in the islands—( Hear, hear)
—and that fact must have a considerable influence on their con-
dition. Yet be believed, though the Hon. Member fur Dum-
fries had spoken of their being in a state of lethargy—caused
by monopoly and a want of competition—that many of the
West India proprietors, notwithstanding their estates
did not pay their outgoings, were, oust of their capi-
tal, sending out every improvement that could be
made, in, he might almost call it, the forlorn hope
that, in time, those improvements might lead to a revival
of prosperity. lie wished the Hon. Member for Manchester,
who seemed so familiar with Mr. Porter's book, would look
at what that gentleman stated with respect to the adoption of
improvements, and he would find that there was hardly any
branch of the manufacture for which patents were taken out in
this country, that were not adopted by persons anxious to im-
prove their estates. They might not have that overflow of
capital which, it seemed, oppressed Manchester and Liverpool
so much that it had gone over to the Want Indies, and, as the
Hon. Member had stated, had constructed a line of railway
between Spanish Town and Kingston ; but that line only
extended a distance of ten or twelve miles, so that the outlay
of money had not been so considerable. The colonists
had not invested money in that line, but per-
haps they thought their capital might be better
employed in enlarging and extending the cultivation of their
sugar, and the produce of the cane. The Hon. Member for
Cumberland, the Hon. Member for Dumfries, and the Hon.
Member for Stoke-upon-Trent, had gone into a discussion of
the plan which it was the intention of his Right Hon. Friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to submit, as soon as the
House should agree to the motion for going into a Committee
of Supply. But, in the first place, he thought it extremely
unfair to attempt to discuss detached portions of that plan,
until his Right Hon. Friend should have had the opportunity
of stating it fully, and showing the bearing and dependence of
one part of that plan upon the other. He would not endeavour
to anticipate any of those details, by answering any of the argu-
ments of the Hon. Members for Stoke-upon-Trent and Dumfries ;
nor would it he fair to go into the discussion) as the Noble Lord
the Member for the City of London had given notice for Wed-
nesday) during that Noble Lord's absence, and the absence of
many of the Hon. Members by whom the Noble Lord was
supported.
Mr. HAWES (pointing to the vacant places in the vicinity
of the Treasury bench)—They are absent too.—( Hear.)
Mr. G. CLERK had no doubt the absent gentlemen were
very ably represented by the Hon. Member for Lambeth—
( Hear, hear, and a laugh)—but he thought he would agree
with him that, in the absence of the Noble Lord the
Member for the City of London, it would be very
improper to anticipate any part of the discussion on
the two important points with respect to which the
Noble Lord had put a notice on the books for Wednesday.
Under the circumstances, therefore, he had rio right whatever
to go into any answer to the statements of the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite on the present occasion, as they related to the
details of his Right Hon. Friend's plan, more especially the
speech of the Hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent. whose ob-
servations went minutely into those details, which could be
discussed with advantage only when regularly before the
House. He would not trespass any further on the patience of
the House. He had endeavoured to show that it had been the
policy which this country had ever acted on, and which, he
trusted, it would always continue to act on, to give a fair
amount of protection to the domestic industry of the nation.—
( Hear.) However Hon. Gentlemen opposite might cry out
against protection and the principles on which it was based,
however they might select some extreme case, and ask them
if they would attempt the cultivation, for instance, of the tea
plant, or some other production to which their soil and climate
were not adapted, by giving the growers of it the protection
of high duties on the foreign import of it ; however they
might take such an extreme case, they must look at each
by itself, and then he thought that in the policy of his Right
Hon. Friend the head of her Majesty's Government, though
he was prepared to maintain the protective principle, he had
carefully looked into the amount of duty charged on every
article of general use, with the view of affording every relaxa-
tion of those duties which would give the articles at the lowest
and cheapest price to the consumers, without injury to the
trade of the country. He was perfectly convinced that the
sudden withdrawal of the fair amount of protection would do
as much injury as the continuance of the working
of any of the old and exploded systems of monopoly which
existed a century ago, for the purpose of bolstering up any
branch of manufacture. He could only say, in conclusion,
that he believed, when the plan of his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was produced, he would submit
a proposition that would have the effect of securing to the
people of this country sugar, at a much cheaper rate than
they had ever been able to purchase it at, for the last twenty
or thirty years, and that this would be done without the

free-trade and the impediments to commerce by such a test, the
Right Hon. Baronet might have enlightened them from his recent
visit to his own constituents, when he submitted to them his
views on the subject of that test, as to how far the electors of
the country were disposed to approve of his own opinions.—
( Hear, hear. ) The Right Hon. Baronet would see and re-
cognise his allusion to his late reception at Stamfor,l.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) The weather was at present, about the
same as then, but he did not believe that if he went
down there now, he would meet the same treatment
as his Honourable Friend the Member for Manchester,
would do from his constituents, after his unqualified avowal of
the doctrines of free trade. He did not know if the Right
Hon. Baronet had much improved his chance in the district he
represented, by submitting to the House the speech he had just
delivered. With all due deference to the Right lion. Gentle-
man, and with great respect to him personally, he ventured to
say that he had not much raised himself in the opinion of
the House by that address. He did not mean to say that
it was not a fair average speech for a functionary of the Go-
vernment.--( Hear, and laughter. ) It seemed just that
sort of speech and argument that might be drawn out of the
pigeon-holes of the Board of Trade, aster having been put by
some twenty-five years back. —( Laughter.) It seemed that
mass of common-place—that tissue of vague generalities—that
sort of no answer to the question before the House—
that kind of matter that was usually brought before
them to occupy a certain space of time.—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) For he did think that, considering the practical
and specific question which his Hen. Friend the Member for
Manchester had brought before the House, there never was an
Hon. Gentleman, of mature years, and holding the position the
Right lion. Gentleman held, who had ever occupied so much
of the time of the House in speaking, without any reference to
the point in question—who continued so to make himself
the giants with which he fought—alluding to things
that had never fallen from his lion. Friend, and never answer-
ing the questions that must be answered before the discussion
,could cease, which his Hon. Friend had brought forward. The
Right Hon. Gentleman urged an objection to this sort of ab-
stract question; yet the question was put before them to be
sifted practically, that they might be pressed to
tell the House what were the claims of the West
India proprietors to this protection—what claim
they had to this enormous sacrifice exacted from the
people of England ? He would ask, what were those claims?
They wanted to know what were those claims—what had they
sacrificed—what did they owe them—what was the large
amount of their loss ? They were told of the great sacrifices
they had been obliged to make—( Hear, hear)—let
them bring in the account—let them see it—let them know
what it was they were paying fur? The Bight lion. Gentle-
man said he should proceed to Shaw what parlieular claims
these gentlemen had ; but he (Mr. Villiers) would ask any
body who had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman—anybody
who had listened to him —and they had paid him the most re-
spectful attention—whether they were in possession from him
of the shadow of an idea as to what were the claims,
general or particular, in respect of which the gentlemen who
were proprietors of landed estates in the West Indies, took
2,300,000/. annually from the people of this country.—( Hear,
hear.) Now, he would put it to the House, whether they
could remember—whether they could tax their memories—so
as to try and comprehend what the Right Honourable
Gentleman said, in order to explain why this
sacrifice had been made, and what these claims
wera Hear, hear,) The Right lion. Gentleman said, he
did not know what Hon. Gentlemen opposite proposed to do,
why, in adopting this resolution, they proposed to bind that
House to a principle which, if applied, would do justice to
the people of this country, and by which, as long as it was
withheld, justice was withheld—( Hear)—and they also wanted
to know why it was withheld? The Right Hon. Gentleman
said it had been the policy of this country to protect the
colonial interest, that protection was part of the great scheme
of policy always adopted by this country. Why that was the
langulge which the Right Hon. Gentleman's friends in the
opposite corner of the House adlressed to the Right
Honourable Baronet at the head of the Government. The
Right Honourable Gentleman, said they, by this reso-
lution proposed to disturb the scheme of policy always
adopted by this country. Why this was exactly what
the Government were doing themselves. They were disturb-
ing it every day, they scarcely ever got up to make a speech
that they did not utter some sentiment at variance with that
great scheme of policy. What was it they heard so much of
from the agricultural interest now ? What was it they heard so
much of last year from the West Indian body ? Why, that
they were depriving them of protection. The Right Hon.
Gentleman himself disturbed that protective principle, and
then turned round on them, and thinks it an answer to the
question asked by his Hon. Friend to say that it was part of a
great scheme of policy to protect certain interests, and that
they could not be disturbed without injury to the country ! Now
would it not almost have been moredecent to have said nothing a
all ? Would it not have been better to have let it be under.

stood that the Government meant well, that it wished to carry
out its principle, but that it did not like to commit itself now ?
Did it not tend to render ridiculous every thing they proposed
sshen they uttered such doctrines? But the Right Hon. Gen-

tleman did say something in the course of his speech which he
really thought was somewhat to the point. He said
he wished the Honoursble Members for Cumberland

and Weymouth were present, because they knew some-
thing of the details of the subj9ct. He was himself utterly
in ignorance, and knew nothing of the matter, but
they, though opposed to him in politics, were connected with
the %Vest Indies, and they would perhaps be so good as to help
him out. The Right Honourable Gentleman said ho
knew nothing about it, he had announced his

own ignorance—( Hear)—and in a confidence that
ignorance could alone justify, had asserted that he believed
those claims in protection were well founded, and that this was
the principle of the measure of which he professed entire igno-
rance. Why, this was exactly what his Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Manchester complained of. He could gee nothing that
justified the amount of the sacrifice called for from the people
—that was precisely the matter la dispute. He
should like to have some statistic information; he should like
to know in what state these properties were—whether their co-
lonial dependencies were all in this state, and what there was
in this mystical sum of lOs. 6d. that had hitherto
met all the circumstances of the case? Here were

2,300.000/. taken out of the pockets of the people of
England, and no information given as to the purpose for which
it was done. Was that the moment, looking at the state of
this country, when such a sacrifice ought to be made? They
were told that the income-tax could net be given up. Now
here was an available surplus, by which, if it were not for the
sugar interest, the people might be relieved from a portion at
least of the inemne-tax.—( Hear, hear.) If the sugar duties
were adjusted so as to produce two or three millions more,
either the income-tax or other taxes might be reduced. The
duty on tea be reduced, so as to lead to its being admitted in
much greater abundance ; and thus would our connexion he

rendered closer with that country from which tea was sent to
our own.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman told
them that if he had more surplus, he would apply it in the
tame manner as he proposed to apply the existing sur-
plus.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared that the reason why he
could not reduce more taxes was the protection given to the
West India proprietors. His Hon. Friend the Member for
Weymouth had put in a word for the East India proprietors.
He said protection was claimed for the East Indians as well as
West Indians. Why, it was part of their case that that absur-
dity existed.—( Hear, hear.) Particular grounds were stated
for imposing this penalty on the people of England in the case
of the West Indies, which did not in the least apply to the
East Indies.—( Hear, hear.) The West Indians told them
that the only ground on which they claimed protection was
that labour was not cheap. "We want more labour," they
said, " and then we should be able to compete with any:foreign
State." What were the wages in the East Indies? Two-
pence a day at the most.—( Hear, hear.) Well, now, what
posible ground was there for protecting the East Indians ?
They had no vested interests. In their case the Legislature
created the very interests which claimed to be protected ; the
interest was created and the protection was then claimed.
Hit Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland was some-

what ingenious in his mode of arguing ; for
seeing that this question would not bear arguing in that light,
he changed the issue as soon as possible.—( Laughter.) He
got upon slavery. Now, he (Mr. Villiers) begged to say,
that his lion. Friend's motion did not raise that question.—
( Ironical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) His Hon.
Friend asked him why there shouid be a duty of 10s. less on
East and West India sugar, as compared with that of Java and
Manilla? He also wanted to knuw why this was done. His
Hon. Friend, the Member for Cumberland, said, " Think of
the horrors of slavery ; it is for them that my heart beats. I
care not for my own estate, it is the cause of humanity which
urges me to oppose you."— ( Laughter.) Now he wanted to
know how his lion. Friend's benevolent feelings would be
affected by the introduction of Java and Manilla sugar ?
( Laughter. ) Why should they apply distinctive duties to free-
labour sugar, the produce of different parts of the world. If they
were sincere in stating the purpose for which they maintained a
distinction, they ought to hasten to give every encouragement
to the admission of all sugar produced by free labour.—( Hear,
hear.) They said they wanted to present to the would an ex-
ample which would prove that free-labour sugar was better and
more economically produced than slave-labour sugar, and that
they were desirous of encouroging sugar produced by free labour,
because that would lead to the abolition of the slave trade.

Now that experiment had already been made as regarded the
markets of Europe generally ; there Java sugar always did
compete with the sugar of Cuba and Brazil. Why, when they
were about to make some change in their arrangementA, why
did they not open their markets to all sugar which was pro-
duced by free labour ?—( Hear, hear.) It vt as quite clear that
slavery had nothing to do with the matter.—( Hear, hear.) He
had a perfect right to say this, so long as they made a distinction
between one free-labour sugar and another ; and it would be
•

more creditable to them, he thought, if they avovred their real

object to be that of giving pi=otection to the West Indian
interest. Indeed, the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir G.

Clerk) confessed that the ;cal object was that of favoUring the
\Vest India proprietors.—( Hear, hear.) Well, then, they

slightest iujustice to the producer of sugar. either in their
West Indian Colonies, or East Indian possessions. He be-
lieved on the other hand, that the increased consumption in
this country, which would be the necessary consequence of this
reduction in price, would give a fresh stimulus and energy to
the West Indian proprietors and that they might calculate
on an increased production in the colonies, which he hoped
would be brought back to the state they were In ten or twelve
years ago, and that they would again be able to supply the
whole of the sugar consumed by the people of this country, to
the amount of 500,000 cwts. Under these circumstances they
might see the time when the islands would regain their
ancient prosperity, and to the satisfaction of the Hon. Member
for Manchester, they might see the exports of this country
increase from 2,000,000/. to upwards of 4,000,0001., at the
same time that a great relief would be given to the consumer
of sugar in this country by placing it withia the reach of the
poorest labourer in the country, at a price infinitely below that
at which he had ever been able to purchase it during the last
twenty or thirty years. The supply that would be secured
of this article, now become almost a prime necessary of life,
would, he hoped, be ample enough to equal the most sanguine
expectations of the Honourable Member for Manchester.
He looked upon this as the permanent effect of the
measures her Majesty's Government were bringing for-
ward. Now, let them look at the practical result of the reso-
lution of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Mr. M. Gibson
here made some observation across the table.) What would

were bound to show what advantage this protection had ever
given to them. If they possessed some confused notion that
their colonial empire could be made to flourish by an Act of

Parliament, let them show that these people were suffering
then for the first time.--( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet defended the Government measure on the distinct and

ole ground that the West India planters were now suffering
from the abolition of slavery. There was, he contended, no

ground, no pretence for making that assertion ; and he would
tell the Right Hon. Baronet that, whether slavery existed or
not, there had always been suffering when the proprietors were
protected. That was the argument used by those who were
the real friends of the slaves in the West India islands. He re-

furred to swell authorities as Cropper, Macaulay, and Stephen,
who had asserted that the ruin of these islands had been slavery
and monopoly.—( Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet did
not make statements so loosely. He would remind him that,
"'. . .

;welve years ago, a Member of that Cabinet to which he be-

longed had (leCiared, in that. House, that the real cause of dis-

tress in those islands was the existence of slavery. It was very
important that that House, and, through it, the country, should
be made aware that they were not asking for anything that was
unjust, or likely to be injurious to the West Indian interests,
and, above all, was it desirable that they should be disabused of
the monstrous fallacy that it was owing to the abolition of
slavery that such depression existed. Ho found that during the
existence of the slave trade' and slavery, a Committee was ap-
pointed by the House of Assembly in Jamaica, to make inqui-
i ies as to the general state of distress in that island ; and he
ventured to say that the report made on t hat occasion showed that
island to be even in a worse condition than it was at present.
He quoted from a work of Mr. B. Edwards, which was strongly
in favour of the proprietors themselves. The period referred to
was 1792. Speaking of the result of the inquiry, it was stated by
this writer, that 177 estates had been sold for debt, and fifty-
five thrown out of cultivation, and further that ninety-two
estates remained in the hands of the creditors. Now he had
not heard any such statement as that made that evening. lie
was not aware that the distress in the island of Jamaica had
arrived at such a pitch. That was the state, however, of the
island in 1792, under slavery and the slave trade. In 1807
there was a Committee of that House to inquire into the un-
paralleled distress of the West India proprietors. They were
then still receiving slaves from Africa, slavery still existed.
The cause assigned for the depression at that time was the con-
tinuance of the war; it was stated that that had produced an
unequal competition in foreign markets. Then there was also
a Committee of Inquiry, and great discussion also took place, in
1824, before the abolition of slavery. In 1-32
there was another inquiry as to the great distress
which prevailed, and that Committee spoke of the
proprietors having alleged all sorts of inconsistent
reasons for it, and said they must conclude that there was
some other reasons than those assigned. The Earl of Ripon,
who was Colonial Minister at the time, said that without de-
nying the concurrence of many causes, it was obvious that the

be the practical result of that motion ? It would be to rouse
the feeling of the public of this country against the West
India proprietors on this question, and to expose them to a
popular odium on account of having upheld a system of slavery
which ceased to exist many years ago. He thought this rather
unfair; those proprietors had had to submit to changes which
had exposed them to severe losses, in many cases to an extent
of which the gentlemen who heard him could not be aware.
In every quest:on brought forward connected with this sub-
ject, they were held up to public odium, and they were
now told they were about to have their whole property. con-
fiscated ! Under these circumstances, he hoped the 'House
would not support the motion of the Hon. Member for Alan-

Chester, but would agree with the original resolution for going
into a Committee of Ways and Means.
I.llr. C. P. VILLIERS said he was rather amused at the

test the Right Hon. Baronet, who had just sat down, had ap-
plied to his Hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-upon-Trent, in
order to satisfy himself and the House of the propriety and
justico of his opinions. This test was—to go down to his con-
stituents—(" Hear, hear," and laughter. )—to go down to his
ccustituents, and ask them whether they approved of his doc-
trines of free trade or not..—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh. )
Well, if they were to decide the soundness of the doctrines of

I\llEl SLN, LONDON, TUIA:S DA EVENING, FEBRUARY 5, 1845

of England.—( Hear, hear. ) The Vice-President of the
Board of Trade had told them that the West Indian
labourers were in an extremely prosperous condition, that they
had two shillings a day, besides provision found, and that it was
difficult to get them to give a complete day's !abour. Now, he
believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman was correct in that
representation, but he wanted to know, if they compared his
condition with that of the peasant in Dorsetshire or Somerset-
shire, where was the justice of taxing the peasant of Dorset or
Somerset, and not the negro peasant in the West Indies?
Well, it was not justice to the labotrer that required the pro-
tection. Was it the merchant or ship owner that required it?
No person would deny that they would not gain more by
an unrestricted trade than by protection.—( Hear hear.) Who
then required it ? It was clear that the only remaining class
l‘estlud
; and
i"—(it the
people the
hear)—and
tnheer owners
planters
ttehr
residentlan d in the
this r
country in
people of England would do well to consider that, when jus-
tice to the colonies was talked of, it meant, stating the matter
plainly and intelligibly, the placing of a large sum of money in
the pockets of certain West India planters resident in this
country.—(l-fear. ) If the West India planters had a case
against this country he was prepared to meet it fairly.
If they put forward a good case, he was sure the people of
England would meet their demand fairly, as they did when they
paid the twenty millions foe the abolition of slavery. If they
proved the case, the people of this country would meet their
demands fully and fairly, but in the way least onerous to the
country, namely, by charging the Consolidated Fund with an
annuity for those gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) But he for one
would not consent to a tax on account of the West India pro •
prietors, which for every pound it put into their pockets, took
two out of the pockets of the people.—( Hear, hear.) And he
would prove that this was the case, and that the difference was
wasted in the way in which;labour and capital was employed.--
( Hear. ) But he would go further, and contend that while
this measure was most injurious to the people of England, and
was a gross injustice to the manufacturing classes of this coun-
try, it would also disappoint the West India proprietors
( Hear, hear.) And the grounds of that opinion it was not
difficult to explain. Whoever took the trouble of becoming
acquainted with the condition of the West India colonies, par-
ticularly whoever had carefully read the Report of the Com-
mittee in 184'2. would see at once that the great ground of
complaint, on the part of the planters, was that while there
was great competition for labour on their part, the wages
of the negro were so high that by only working part of the day
he was able to supply himself with all those necessaries and
luxuries to which he was accustomed. Of course, like men in
other countries, they did not like work for work's sake. They
found that whatever was the price of sugar the planters sought
to outbid each other by offering the highest price for labour,
which the price of sugar at the time enabled them to afford.
That was a necessary consequence of a limited supply of labour.
But what would be the effect of raising the price of sugar, and
raising thereby the competition for labour amongst the plan-
ters? His belief was, that the competition which already
existed would become roore intense—higher wages would be
offered to the• negro. They would then be enabled to supply
themselves with all they wanted at a smaller amount of labour,
and the effect would be in all probability a diminished supply
of sugar, thus placing the West Indies, as compared with the
East Indies, in a worse position than at present.—( Hear, hear.)
There was strong reason for believing that such would be the
effect of the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. And he
thought that the best opportunity now presented itself of
making a change in the policy hitherto pursued,
because after a long perseverance in the protective
system, and after quiet was established, he thought
it would tend to great temporary disturbance to make such a
change. But now that a large reduction of taxation was pro-
posed, if they made this change of policy they would escape this
serious shock to colonial industry. And it was also to be con-
sidered, that by making the two measures simultaneous, by
coupling together the reduction on colonial sugar and the
equalisation of duty on sugar of all descriptions--by making the
two conteinnoraneous they might hope to give the consumer
the benefit he ought to have from the reduction granted to him
at the expense of the Treasury. If they were to reduce the
duty on colonial sugar without extending the source of supply,
he thought the great probability was that there would be no
fall of consequence in the price of sugar. The consumption
of this country was entirely kept down by the price—
it was so infinitely below the real wants of the people—(Hear)
—that his belief was that if the source of supply were not ex-
tended at the moment the duty was reduced, the price would
rise with the demand, and the advantage of the reduction
would be divided between the planter and the labourer em-
ployed in the cultivation of sugar. His belief was that if the
supply of sugar was increased by enlarging the sources from
which it came, it would be absorbed so much by this country.
where the richest body of consumers were to be found, that
the price would rise of necessity in the other markets of the
world. Price being thus supported, and looking to the fact that
the price of colonial and Brazil sugar in bond was but 7s. 6d. a
few days ago, and that the remission proposed by the
Government on colonial Augur was I Is. ; considering that, he
felt persuaded that the price of sugar in all the markets of the
world would be so supported for a time, that the immediate
fall of price in this country could not go beyond the amount of
the remission of the duty. If that were so, then (and this was
what he wished to impress on the House), this desirable change
of policy might be effected without injuring, at all events for
the present, the colonial produce. If the fall of price in this
country did net exceed the remission of the duty, the consumer
would remain as well off as he was at this moment. No
doubt in the course of time, the price would be brought down.
But then the argument of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite
was, that the principles of free trade, which were those of
common sense, ought not to be introduced at once, but gra•
dually, and he had shown that if the principle were now in-
troduced its operation would be slow. The Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last had admitted that of late years there was a con-
siderable improvement in the cultivation of sugar, and he had
no doubt but that improvement would greatly advance if the
West Indies were subjected to a closer competition. He be-
lieved that the system of working by agents and attorneys was
at the root of the whole evil, and that when the negroes,
who were advancing in material prosperity and in
intellectual power, became proprietors, they would be
able to contend with the producers of foreign countries.
When all those improvements had taken place which
the state of the West Indian population required, there
could be no doubt that all the advantages which the advo-
cates of emancipation predicted from the employment of free
labour instead of slave-labour, would result. They knew that
in this country, where farms or manufactories were carried on
by agents, while the owners lived in Naples or Moscow, much
profit was not derived from them ; and so it was with re-
gard to the cultivation of sugar in the West Indies. But
they must remember how fast the condition of the negro was
improving ; and when he had the stimulus of personal interest,
he had no doubt that the cultivation and manufacture of sugar
would be improved in the highest degree. Every day there
was rising into manhood, not an uneducated population, de-
graded by the influences of slavery, but enlightened by educa-
tion. By slavery they might extort more physical labour from
the slave, but. they could not draw out the qualities of his
mind. For that purpose slavery was powerless, and accord-
ingly all experience proved that every business carried on by
slave labour, whether in their own colonies, or the United
States or Brazil, in all those eases it was proved that free
labour was more profitable than slave labour, and that
was emphatically the case in the cultivation of sugar.
That was the reason why, after two or three centuries, there
was still observed so little difference between the primitive
state of those affected by this question and their condition at
that time. More had been done towards realising their wishes
within the last half dozen years, and since slavery
had been abolished in their own colonies, than in the two cen-
turies before. But still, considering the improvements going
on in the trade of Antigua and Barbadoes, the improvements
in the condition of the labourers was not so rapid as it ought to
be. They still wanted the stimulus of competition, but they
might look to this result, that, in three years, free labour would
be so much cheaper than slave labour, in Trinidad and other
places, that they would not only be able to drive slave labour
out of their own markets, but out of the markets of the world,
and, by doing so, not only abolish the slave trade, but slavery
itself. The great result to which they might with confidence
look, was this, that if they had sufficient faith in the
truth of their great principle, sufficient confidence in the
realisation of all that was good and great, over that which was

the opposite, if, instead of shrinking frem the inconveniences or
temporary difficulties which must result from the change he
recommended, for he did not deny that some temporary incon-
veniences and some immediate evil might not arise.—(Hear,
from the Ministerial side of the House.) lie was not pre-
pared to deny that some immediate encouragement might not
be given to the slave-trade, but he considered that any tem-
porary evil of this kind ivas of minor importance, when looked
at in connexion with such great and glorious objects. He did
not attempt to deny that some inconvenience might be expe-
rienced by equalising at present the duties on all sugars to the

exclusion of 'slave fabou'r from their markets, but he liked

still less their plan of rejecting some, and admitting others—
which they might think it too great a sacrifice to refuse—
their plan of attempting to bolster up their colonies by pro-
teetive duties. He did not deny that those measures, while
they were utterly powerless to get rid of the evil, might
nevertheless answer for the time ; bat if, in order to put
down not only the slave-trade but slavery itself, they continued
them, the remedy would be found quite inadequate. If they
trusted in the truth of that great principle which they had
with due consideration adopted—if they were prepared to
trust their own colonies to struggle in the markets with the
produce of the slave countries—if it was their opinion that
no good could arise without pursuing some stated principle—
if they admitted slave-grown sugar as they admitted cotton,
tobacco, or other products—if they were prepared to do
this, there might be some temporary inconvenience, it
was true they might not indeed gain a great
victory for the cause of humanity, but they might
rest assured that free labour would triumph in the struggle
over slavery. Such was his conviction, and in that conviction
he would support the motion of the Hon. Member for Man-
chester; and his answer to the Hon. Gentleman on the oppo-
site side, who taunted him in supporting it, was, that he was
not more indifferent to the horrors of slavery now than when it
was triumphant in the colonies, and that it ill became them to

taunt, who were not by those horrors prevented from profiting
by those abuses as long as they lasted, those who were but
new philanthropists. He was not more indifferent than when
he had supported those honourable and patriotic men to whose
exertions the British nation was indebted for equalizing the sta-
tion of the bondman and the free. He had humbly supported
those, one of whom he could not help remarking they had
lately lost—one whom they must all remember for his since-
rity, his zeal, and his earnestness in the cause of the slave—but
although he had supported sir Thomas Fowell Buxton, al-
though he retained the full feeling that he then advocated, he
was not to be deterred from supporting the motion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Manchester, and he did hope that the
people of this country would look on, and compare their con-
duct with the previous conduct of those who put forward this
question as the advocates of free trade, and see how much of
sincerity there was at the bottom of their arguments, and then
ask themselves, on a question like that, if any Ministry could
passively look on the evils of this country, on the distresses of
its labourers, and still continue by this mode of legislation to
burden the country with its present amount of pecuniary
taxation?

Mr. GLADSTONE said that he for one meant not to dis-
cuss the question of slavery as slavery with the Noble Lord who
had just sat down ; but he concurred in the eulogium which
the Noble Lord had just passed on the principles which had
actuated the late Sir T. Fowell Buxton, although he could not
help thinking that the Noble Lord was not particularly happy
in his choice of introducing at that time the taunt of their
being new philanthropists. The Noble Lord was an advocate
of extreme measures, and he was prepared to bring
the question to a fina settlement. But he (Mr. Glad-
stone) was not sure that this merit would attach
to the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester.
Now, the lion. Gentleman had stated he had heard much said

of the tax that had been paid by the people-on account of the
differential duties. lie did net deny that there was a payment,
which, if they pleased, they might call a tax on sugar, but why
should they resort to unnecessary exaggeration ? The Noble
Lord opposite had commenced his speech by attacking the
Hon. Member for Bristol, and by stating that 2,300,0001.
was the minimum tax on the people for sugar; but instead of
showing a difference of 131. or 10/., he only showed a difference

of 7s. 6d.
Lord HOWICK—That was after the change.
Mr. GLADSTONE—Yes, but after that change it was
said there would be a rise. The Noble Lord had informed
them, and truly, that if they granted equalization there would
be a rise in the price of sugar, and there would be no diminu-
tion of the tax paid by the people.—( Hear, hear.) It had been
said that the gist of the question had not been met ; he
granted that it had not ; but the policy of this country had
been to maintain a system of protection, and that under that
certain engagements had been entered into, perhaps viciously,

but interests hs..d been formed which the British Parliament
would support if it was just. Ile slid not think the
Hou.,e would be prepared to admit that they ought
to apply with sudden hand the principle of free trade to cir-
cumstances so artificial as those under which the sugar trade
remained. The Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had said
what claim had the West India proprietors to deferential duty?
He wished heartily that equality could be established between
native and foreign protection, but it was the extreme dearness
of production in the West Indies that made the difficulty that
had always been felt.--(Hear, hear.) Now what was the
cause of all this? Why, it was said that the scarcity of
labour was the cause of all.—( Hear, hear. ) Now he could
not agree with that.—( Hear. ) It was true that that was
one great cause of the scarcity, but another cause was the non-
residence of proprietors. If they could change the non-resident
proprietors to residents he believed the great difficulty would be
removed.—( Hear, hear.) But how came the West Indian
proprietors to be non-resident? Why, because it was com-
patible with the slavery system ; for that the Parliament of the
country was responsible.—( Hear, hear.) It was on the ground
of non-reddence that he rested his case for the protection of
the sugar duties. Parliament had interfered and abolished
slavery, and, therefore, it made that which was hitherto abun-
dant, scarce. The consequence was—that labour, which was
cheap, became dear, and those who caused that dearness were
bound to meet their share of the consequences of their own
acting. It might be shown that there were estates in the
West Indies that had not met with losses ; but with regard to
the greater portion of them, perhaps not one in ten, aye, per-
haps not one in fifty, stood on the right side of the account.
The Noble Lord had said that the present was a most favour-
able opportunity for the equalisation of the duties on sugar.—
( Hear, hoar.) What was now proposed ? Why, instead of
maintaining a system which gave the West Indians 205. per
hundred weight, they were about to adopt a system that would
give only 103. A severe pressure had been brought to bear
upon the West Indian proprietors since the abolition of slavery.
Ile was unwilling to detain the House long upon the subject,
because it was not necessary to argue it farther. He was per-
suaded that the House would deal with the question now before
it as it had dealt with many such questions, and that it would
not begin at the wrong end as to the principle of free trade.
Let them apply the principle of free trade wherever they
could without producing evil.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But let them not begin by applying those principles against the
produce of the West Indies.—( Hear.) They should not com-
pare it with those interests which came before the House with-
out any special claim, whereas the West Indians had this
ground that the causes which prevented them from competing
with their foreign rivals were brought about by the measures
of Parliament—those causes being principally non-residence of
the landlords, and the scarcity of labour—which latter was the
consequence of the honourable but costly Act of the British
Parliament, in the emancipation of the negro slaves.—( Hear. )
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he would not detain the
House more than a very few minutes. But having frequently
had occasion to take part in the discussion of this question, he
could not allow the present motion to be disposed of without
troubling the House with a few words. He was not disposed
en this occasion to discuss the scheme of her Majesty's Minis-
ters. To it he had great objections.--( Hear, hear.) But he
was glad that the proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord J.
Russell) and those of other Gentlemen on that side of the
House would give him an opportunity of stating his objections.
One of those objections was, that not only was the scheme in-
trinsically bad in itself, but, instead of bringing the duties on
sugar to the point which they should reach, or diminishing the
protection, it was proposed to increase the protection which
already existed.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, by adding to the
protection, it greatly increased the difficulty of dealing with the
subject at a future time. The question at present before the
House was really whether at once and completely
they should proceed to substitute for the present duty one of
conapleto equality. That was the real question before the
House. He thought he had fairly stated the question as it has'
been put by the Hon. Member for Manchester, and his Noble
Friend the Member for Sunderland.—( Hear, hear.) Now he
conceived that nothing could be more objectionable—however
much he condemned those duties—than to proceed at once to
equalisation.—(Ministerial cheers.) The consequence would
be to throw into confusion and to paralyse every interest con-
nected with the colonial sugar trade.—(Ministerial cheers. )
He felt bound to say that, on this occasion, he must take the
course which he had uniformly taken when similar questions
affecting interests in the country came before the House.
He did not think that the course recommended by
the Hon. Mover (Mr. Gibson) and his Noble Friend was
that which the Government ought to pursue, and he, for one,
as a Member of that House, would not be a party to force it
upon there.—(Ministerial cheers.) The question had been
so fully argued that he was not disposed to detain the Reuse at
any length. He was the more unwilling to do so, because he
assured them that, although he had thought it his duty not to
shrink from avowing his dissent from his Noble Friend and the
Hon. Mover, yet it was painful to him to argue with them
upon a subject upon which to so great an extent he agreed with
them. —( Hear, hear.) He agreed with them, that the danger
in that House was not that protection would be too suddenly
withdrawn—(Cheers)—but that it would be continued too
long—(Cheers)—to the injury of the country and of the pro-
tected interests themselves.--( Cheers.) Therefore it was with
unwillingness he opposed motions of this kind.—( Hear, hear. )
But it was now proposed to substitute for a system of exclusion
and monopoly, one of perfect free trade. That was a course
opposed to even the great and recognised authorities in political
economy, from Adam Smith to the present day. He found
that they all—however clearly they laid down and il-
lustrated the principles of free trade—they all said
that circumspection and caution should be used in applying
those principles to interests which had been long cherished
under the principle of protection. In that House he had
heard the most distinguished statesmen—from Mr. Huskisson
down—and he had never heard a contrary opinion from any
public man whose opinion carried any great weight.—( Hear,
hear.) And, looking to the policy of the world, they would
never see a long-continued protection suddenly removed.—
( Hear, hear.) Looking to this, and to the present position
of the colonies, he did not think that the real interests of the
country would bo promoted by adopting a resolution of the
description of that now proposed. Considering the present
position of the West Indian interests, and the course of legisla-
tion pursued toward s them, there was every reason why those
principles of caution and circumspection, so just and
reasonable in themselves, and recommended by the
highest authorities, should be applied to then.—(Ministerial
cheers.) He had no more connexion with the West Indies
than any other Member of that House, but he would not deal
with the colonial interests more harshly than with any other in-
terest in this country.—( Hear, hear.) He was, therefore, not
prepared to take the course recommended in the resolution be-
fore the House.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think it necessary
to trouble the House at great length on the present occasion,
and he would now only say that whilst he was willing to vote for
a diminished protection, he could not vote for an equalisation
of the duties upon colonial and foreign sugar.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN, who commenced in a tone extremely low
and indistinct, so as to be for some minutes almost inaudible in
the gallery, was understood to say, that when he considered that
the arguments upon this question were nearly exhausted,
he was not disposed to occupy the time of the
House at any great length. But he had taken some
little trouble with the subject, which was an old acquaintance
of his.—( Cheers and laughter.) That (as we understood)
might be some little apology for him in speaking upon this
occasion.--( Hear, and a laugh.) Since he had heard the
Hon. Member for Bristol and the Hon. Member for Cumber-
land express themselves quite satisfied with the scheme of the
Right Hon. Baronet, he was certain not only that the measure
was as bad as the one of last year, but that it was something
worse.—( Cheers and a laugh.) Ho supposed that the Right
Hon. Baronet wished to have a little flirtation with the prin-
ciples of free-trade--(Laughter)—these principles which he
(Mr. Cobden) and his friends cherished. But then the
Right Hon. Baronet turned back to his first love—( A laugh)
—and they could not expect him to follow them.—( Hear and
a laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet's Budget took something
out of the pockets of the people by means of the income-tax,
and gave it back by the repeal of some Customs duties. But
he ( Mr. C.) thought that with regard to the protective duties
on sugar, the people would be on the whole in a worse position
than they were last year.—( Opposition cheers.) He did not
think he had any other part of the assertion to deal with, but
the subject of slavery. His Noble Friend (Lord Howick)
had been charged with imputing motives. lie ( Mr. Cobden)
would not impute motives. But he might do Right Hon.
Gentlemen some good by telling them what motives were im-
puted to them out of doors.—( Hear, hear.) Gentlemen
thought that in supporting the scheme of the :Government
they would have the assistance of the anti-slavery body in this
country. In that they were mistaken.—(Cheers.) He (Mr.
Cobden) had an extensive acquaintance amongst that most
respectable body, and he could say that the greater part of
them were supporters of the principles of free trade.—( Loud
cries of " No, no. ) There were Committees sitting in Lom-
bard-street and Bond-street (in London). But he remem-
bered that they voted for the Hon. Gentleman now Member
for Huntingdon.—( Cheers.) But with the great body of the
opponents of slavery they had no influence, no support.—
(Cheers, and cries of " Hugh, hugh," and other discordant
cries from the Ministerial benches.) When the Anti-Slavery
Society existed who were its representatives in that
House?—(Loud cheers. ) The Members for Manchester,
for Kendal, for Leeds, for Bath.—(Cheers.) These were all
Members upon the Liberal side of the House, and who sent
them there? The anti-slavery body.—(Cheers.) Let them
look to Leeds.—( Hear, hear.) They (the Ministerial side)
had one Member. The Opposition had another. The Minis-
terial Member represented that party who, to the last, resisted
the emancipation of the negro slaves.—( Cheers.) The Liberal
Member, on the contrary, was the representative of those who
had made the most strenuous and indefatigable efforts for the
abolition of slavery.—(Cheers.) He was sorry that the Hon.
Member for Bath had a cold.—( A laugh.) But he weuld ask
the Hon. Member to tell the House whether his anti-slavery
friends in Bath would have the sugar of the poor labourers in
Somersetshire kept. at a high price to protect the West Indian
interest?—( Hear, hear.) The Gentlemen opposite who sup-
ported this scheme under the pretence of discouraging slavery
were the persons who to the last resisted the abolition of slavery
—(Cheers)—who to the last resisted the exemption of women
from the lash.—(lmmense cheering.) Every one of them (the
Tories ),every one of their leaders resisted the exemption of women
from the lash.—(Cheers.) Let them not say that he charged
them with motives.—( A laugh.) He only told them the mo-
tives which were attributed to them out of doors. The resolu-
tion only said that the protection was not to be permanent.
They would vote against that. Let them consider then what
would be the opinion of foreign nations on this subject ? Would
they not say that the Right Hon. Baronet and his supporters
were guilty of hypocrisy in their proposed hostility to slavery ?
Would they not say, as Mr. Colquhoun had stated in a most
bold and statesman-like document, that they wished to put
down slavery, in order that they might have
a monopoly in the production of sugar.—( Cheers.)
The Hon. Gentleman assumed that. the business of sugar
making could not be carried on in competition with slave la-
bour ; and the Hon. Member for Cumberland said. " How

would you like to carry -onthernanufacturing in Manchester
against competitors abroad who paid no wages?"—that means,
against people who steal their workmen, and make them work
for their food. In reply to this challenge, he (Mr. Cobden)
would say, that he desired no other competitors than those.—
( Ilear, hear.) If the manufacturers of the North of England
had only a gang of slaves to compete with, they could command
sv
the markets of the world.—( Hear, hear.) Was there ever such
an absurdity—such a monstrous absurdity, as to suppose that a
community 9f slaves could rival a nation of freemen.—( Cheers. )
The very nature of slave labour precludes those economical
arrangements which freemen are able to effect. Slavery in-
volves expenses, he repeated, which freemen donot,abeseuaffiusceiehnet
that employs slaves must keep a sufficient number of workmen
on his premises to meet every possible contingency. If the
proprietor be a sugar manufacturer he must
have
r
number of coopers about him to meet his wants, and
mu more,stin
ofe retain
forla-
bourers,
he must allow for casualties. In thesam
a sufficient number of waggoners, and otheer
their waye he
descriptionsrices
once a
wonlywant
tell him that in such a state of
tcivem 0
n th. though he
Would shouldah3, one
society as that, which precluded the division of labour, the ap-
plication of science, or the march of improvement, slavery could
surpass freedom. Che assumption that
sßpiegeheth ell
Hon.
.the
Gentleman Hon. Gentlementh ei o pervaded the whole of the
opposite, and particularly of the
colonies.
duty_ would necessarilylembreinr for Newark, was, that an
b • g ruin on every one of the
That presumption he characterised as an odious
fallacy. He deniedjavathe premises. They had been disproved
in Manilla and If the sugar growers in those places
could sell their sugar in Holland in opposition to those of
Brazil, why not the West Indians as well. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Bristol came here very much in forma pamperis, pload-
ing for relief in order to carry on the business; but he (Mr.
Cobden) submitted that before they hey doled out the public money to
these gentlemen, they should investigate their accounts. Let us