The Sun.
London, England, 1819-11-25 00:00:00

should separate without trTal fling relief to ttee peo-
ple, it might perhapa give rise to scenes of blorol.
and ruin. For it would he aaiil that what the Ma,
gisttates bad: done had mit only received from
Ministers a hasty vote of thaults,j)ut that Parlia-
ment had contributed to screen Them from the con-.
sequences of their conduct.—(llrar, hear!)
WARttSN tsoderstood, yesterday, that all
the Ilonourable Gentlemen opposite who had
spoken on the question had acknowledged the
0.. t he Manchester Mee:ing.—(Cries ot
No, no, ftrom the Opposition.)---- l'hey had hail a
night to cOasider the subject----(No, no !)—an'l
refreshed by /hair Sleep they how conic torward to
say that they must be understood to have spoken
under a reserve, to be settled by any tac:s which
might hereafter he prodaced. Ile would take the
• question with the reserve attached to it, and
would try to satisfy the laloose with respect to the
legality or illegality of the ,Meeting. Was it tor-
agotten that a letter had hee'l writteo by limit he-
:tore he took, the Chair at ih Meeting of the 16th.
In this letter he said that he was cooling to assist
the peopte on the subject of Reform, aid that it
was necessary to make a demonst I. it, i•011of what ?
! physical force The Meeting had been ap-
ponited for the 9th of August, and the object was
to eteet a Represeota, ye for Ilse nn represented In-
habitants of Man Chester. Bur even they after-
wards shrunk from this attempt—(Hear, hear,
hear F from the Opposition)—and ai.ered the terins
on which the Meeting of the 16,h was called.—
But could any one, with [besotted exercise of his
reason, believe, that the alteration in the terms
made any in the real object? If there were any
mien so blind,—(dear, hear; Irmo ti-;e Opposi-
tion)—let he imposed n0..----be was none
of them.---(Langhter.)—lt was riot dellivd 11+41
on the. 16111, several tho-sand perFonl.,
Hunt at their head, and tn,rched in military
array. It was known that they had been ;rain-
ed before. Let the !louse consider what their
hamlets were. One con,ained a bluely tlseger,
another the inscription of • Equal 11,:ptcsurtia,ton
or Death. Now had Iltnir in his address to the
people said, We are here for the purpose of oh-
raining our rights, and we will obtain them, even
if threatened with death iu the attempt,
that be or nut be a seditious speech ? It certainly
wooid. Then what difference was there whether
the words were tittered by the speaker, or written
as au emblem Oil the banner under which the
people met ? The Meeting was therchue illegal.
The Magistrates were hilly justified in issuing the
warrant for the apprehension of Elliot. It was
not, therefore, a case for inquiry. It the Meet-
nig was illegal and riotous, it was the duty of the
Magistrates 'to disperse It, and the manner it)
which it was done was justified by the facts
of the case. The Coatts of Law were open.
If the Magistrates bed done any thing wrong,
they were liable to a prosecution. What xvould
he the result of an inquiry at the bar of that
liouse ? That the House would older the Magi-
strates, it it thought they were in tahlt, to be
prosecuted. in the Crittits of Law ; so that
after all the trouble incurred, the case would
be sent back to the eery tribunal fragm whence
it bad been removed.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—.
The -Attoroey-General had item able to lay in-
dictments against Knight and other Radical Chiefs,
why did not the parties who complained so loudly
do the same against the Manchester Magistrates !-
BecauSe they had no evidence on which to glotind
their indictments. It could not be trout want of
money or legal assistance, tor both it had been
seen they possessed. The Courts of Law were
open to their complaints, he should thetetore vote
against the Amendment as unnecessary.

Mr. Put Lttes contended that his Hon. Friend
had not even disc,!ssed the question, whether
the Meeting of the 16th of August was legal or
illegal. But supposing it to have been illegal,
there was still, a great difference between that and
being riotous. He was aware of the situation
of rite county of Lancaster, and of the facts pre-
ceding the meeting, which had created alarm. It
was therefore the more necessary- that the Ma-
gistrates should proceed in their interference in a
manner calculated to command the approbation
of all reasonable men.--.--(Hear, hear, hear !)
He had hitherto carefully avoLled every thing
that could unfairly bias his opinion on the sub-
ject, but he must own that there appeared to be
such a difference between the statements of facts
as, in his opinion, rendered an inquiry necessary.

The SOLICITOR,GRNERAL maintained that there
was at this moment a judicial proceeding depend-
ing before the Oldham Coroner—(Hear, hear,
hear, from the Opposition), which might affect
the lives of the individuals against whom it was
directed.—(Hear, (tear; hear !)—lt had advanced
to a certain stage : evidence had been heard wholly
on the one side, and partly on the other, and in
consequence of a most unjustifiable attempt to
pervert the course of justice that proceeding haul
been suspended.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—Yet
whilst it was still depending, a Member of that
House had thought himself justified in bringing
part of the evidence before Parliament, attended
with observations calculated to pervert the march
of justice.—(Hear, hear !)--He then contended
that the illegality of the Manchester Meeting
had been admitted by most of the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite, at least by inference, and in
the clearest terms by a Learned and Honourable
Friend of hiss He referred to the leading facts of
illegality, to show the necessity of interposition.
From the period of the prorogation of Parliament
the disaffected commenced their operations.- it
appeared from their own documents (for he
had no private information), that their objects
were intimidation, and the overthrow of the
Constitution. Every week there were alarming
meetings, called by those who made a trade of
it, and used threats of a most seditious nature.
They openly declared that Parliament had for-
feited the confidence of the 'country, and
ought to be opposed by force of arms. That the
Prince Resent acted as Charles and James had done,
for which the one was slain and the other exiled.
Their infamous publications, issued at the same
time with astonishing' activity, propagated the
same sentiments, and afforded abundant proof that
a conspiracy existed to overturn the State by phy-
sical force. . Of all the means employed for this
purpo,se, none were more formidable than Union
Societies, with their delegates and regular con-
ceit, which could not co-exist with any regular

form of Government. Thus prepared, the Meet-
ing of the 16th of August was avowedly to make a
display of their force, such as- would encourage
their own. friends and intimidate their enemies.
A glance at the principal. actors'woulit more fully
illustrate the nature of this meeting. Here the
speaker described Hoot in terms of- Pointed •re-
probation, and connected his presence with the
previous Smithfield declaration. that Parliament
was not elected by Universal Suffrage, and there-
torp aught not to be obeyed that atter January,
1820, it should have no authority, and the
timid debt, impudently to called, should be
obli-
torated. This was the person, with. Harrison,
Johnston, and Carlile, selected by the Reformers
of the North for their grand muster. Anima&
vetting on the infamous characters and declared
revolutionary purposes of these persons, the
Learned Gentleman contended, that it stamped
the meeting as dangerous and illegal. lie then
touched upon the '4 playing at soldiers" at mid-
night, in secret places, eighteen hundred or two
thotrsand together, many of whom had served
in the Army or Militia, and put it to the
House to say what sort of an assemblage that
was of which such proceedings were the preface.
If Ministers had erred in any thing, it was in too
wear. forbearance. The Learned Gentleman
dwelt on the terror and alarm excited by (lie
Meeting wlun it did take place, and on the many
aggravating circumstances of parading under of-
ficers in military array, with violent and almost
treasonatil banners, and other proofs Of a tl ter-
mination to resist by force, which rendeted it not
only illecsl but riotous,. according to the defioi-
firm of that popular lawyer, Lord Chief Ji:stice
Holt, whirl he defied any man to cowl-overt.
The Nlagistracy were du-ref-ore obliged to act
as they rlitl. They hail no discretion, and 'the
Statut, Law imposed that duty upon them. He'
warmly ,'etended the whole -of their conduct.
If. (to %; had waited till violence tvi,s actually'
boric lr..fore they executed their legal warrant,
thvv tvonbl, as the Magistrates were, in the year
1750, have been liable to be indicted on a erimi;
pal iotormat jOn. The bust in gs t_o e removed
front their first station, in older to defeat approach,
and the yeomanry were assailed before a blow was
struck. They were broken and some of thiln
knocked clown, when became necessary for the
15 h Hussars to rescue them. Here was no dis-
persion, but the execution of the law ; and if any
excess was committed, not the i‘l,i-itrltes, but
the offenders, were guilty. Was Patliament to
proceed on mere surmise and suggestion, and even
in opposition to the prima facie evidence of the
Grand Jut y's decision against it.. lie concluded
by asserting that there no disposition on the
part of Government to !rut down public meetings
(as had been insinuated) by force ; but quite the
contrary.

Mr.„
zIeARLETT explained.
Sir F. Bottom entered upon the question at
some length and declared his intention of speak-
ing his mind plainly and intelligibly on the.
,criti-
cal state of the country, now acknowledged on
all hands. The danger did not arise from exter-
nal causes ; but from defects in the internal sitta-
lion of the country, which he ,had often insisted
upon, and which Were eow obvious to every man
not interested, in a system of taxation which the
people conld no longer bear. This was the source
• of the alarm and disaffection that so largely pre-
vailed, and 'could only be remedied by very dif-
ferent measures than those which he feared
lbli-
nisters contemplated. Rational men looked to
the cause of evils which they wished to remove ;
hut rash and itnprudent men tried to repel the
effects without curing the disease, lie had
heard, during this discussion, many assertions
so unconstitutional, that they would not have
been listened to when he became a Member
of that House ; and so many contradictions
that they scented to coalesce in no one point, but
in establishing the necessity for inquiry. Such
was the result of the speech of the Learned Gen-
tleman who spoke last, though his vote would be
the other way ; and such the effect of the speech
of his old reforming friend (the. Chief. Justice for
Cheater) whose change he was sorry to see, t hoogh
be was too old a Member of Parliament to be sur•
prized at any thing of that kind. But Ministers.
were surrounded by their legal friends, and to say
the troth every half year displayed a plentiful
growth of legal authorities among them. He,
however, would not bow to them. They might de-
cide ably enough on technical points, but on great
constitutional questions, such as this was, there
were nopersons in the House who carried so little
conviction with them as the Gentlemen of the
long robe. Those on the other side had not much
aided the more prudent line of. defence adopted by
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), whose at atement
that the meeting was not illegal till the period of
[hint's arrest, was the best answer that had been
given. The Learned Gentleman, on the cootrary,
argued that every thing previous had been illegal,
even to the extent of treason. It had been said,
'' the times are cruel, when we commit treason
and know it not." So it was with, the poor Man-
chester people. They showed by their acts,
that they wished to go on according to the law
of the land. It was true they also wished, to
give force to their proceedings.—(Hear.)—but
let it be considered that they had been calling
for Refoym many years its vain, before they
adopted that -course. It might be true, as stated,
that Ministers _had in one case shown too
much forbearance ; but they might have been
guilty' of too much severity elsewhere, and he
desired inquiry boils into, their sins of omission
and commission. He defended. the use of the
banners at the Meeting ; " Liberty or Death,"
was inscribed_on every British heart. Whether it
was prudent to use them .was another question,
bur they were not high treason, nor did they
authorize military execution. There might he
cause for legal process, but there was no cause for
altering the laws. The Honourable Baronet again
protested his own competency to decide.on great
constitutional points better than lawyers ; and again
attacked his quondam friend, as lie called him, the
Chief Justice of Chester, for his unfortunate debut
and too zealorts avowal, of principles which he
might be hereafter influenced by as a Judge.—
He insisted that the Manchester Meeting had not
been proved to be illegal ; but even if it was, the
authorities had no right to act as they had done.
He censured Ministers for the Answer given to the