The Sun.
London, England, 1828-03-25 00:00:00

one, The lion. Baronet said that he had spoken honestly
and fairly ; but after listening with great attention to what
had fallen from the Hon. Baronet, he could not at all see
what the object was fur which the Hon. Baronet wished
him to give an answer. He (the Hon. Baronet) seemed
to complain of his (Mr. Bankes's) having taken a particu-
lar subject out of the hands of the Finance Committee.
Was that the matter of which the Hon. Baronet com-
plained ? and if so, could it be considered a fur ground of
complaint ? Why, he would ask, was the Finance Com-.
mittee to embrace every subject of inquiry before the
House ? Was it not competent to any and every Member
of Parliament to take up any particular subject, if he
thought it could in any other way be more fairly agitated
than it could be before the Finance Committee? Did the
Hon. Bart. know what a mass of business was at present be-
fore the Finance Committee? Was he aware that it would be
with the utmost difficulty that they would be able, in the
present Session, to get through their inquiry into that
pressing object of immediate necessity, the expenditure of
the country? Looking at the estimates and the expendi-
ture, if they could get over that branch of inquiry during
the present Session, they would have discharged a most
arduous and difficult duty. He was not at all aware that•
the subject to which his motion referred would come be-
fore that committee. He did not think that they would
have time to entertain it before the next Session of Par-
liament. The Hon. Baronet had objected to the manner
in which the committee was constituted, and there seemed
to be a sort of oblique insinuation thrown out against him
(Mr. Bankes) personally, as if he had moved for the com-
mittee under false pretences, for the purpose of screening
some particular persons.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—What
purpose had he to answer,—what advantage was lie
likely to receive in moving for this committee? What
benefit would it be to him to screen persons who were
guilty,—which, by the way, he did not believe the persons
alluded to were? On other occasions, he hail taken the
liberty of bringing subjects of this kind before the House,
and no reproach had been cast on him in consequence, The
Hon. Baronet asked what was the object of the Commit-
tee. He would state fairly, that there were two principal
views connected with the formation of theeConimittee, one
related to the public expenditure, and the other to national
taste. Both were fitting objects for the consideration of
Parliament. If they saw a large expenditure going en for
the purpose of ornamenting the country, surelyit was worthy
of the House to see that it was applied to proper purposes.
It was not, he contended, a trifling or a useless labour, to
preserve the character of the country for taste, by bringing
these subjects under the consideration of the House.—
They ought to take care that the character of the -country
for taste was not inferior to that which it possessed in the
times that had gone before them. Surely, the subject
of their public buildings ought to be brought
nnder the attention of Parliament. Before now,
buildings demanding a large expenditure had been
undertaken wholly unknown to that Home, . and
had never been brought under its notice until a
large expence had been incurred. They had known 30,0001.
or 40,0001. to be spent, in the first instance, without the
cognizance of the House, and then they were obliged to
go on and accomplish the work.—(Hear.)—The House
had been kept too much in the dark on this point. Let
them look to the Custom-house. No less a work than
that went on, and the House was not informed of it until
the foundations were laid ; and they knew how they were
laid. That was one of the reasons which induced him to
bring this subject before a Select Committee. The Hon.
Baronet argued that the subject ought to go before the
Finance Committee. Now he begged to observe, that %the
Select Committee would not take away any portion of his
labours from the Finance Committer. He should still at-
tend to his duty there. In the list of hi persons who com-
posed the Select Committee, there were several who
were not on the Finance Committee, and whose employ-
ment could not interfere with the business of that Com-
mittee ; therefore that objection was good for nothing.
The attention of the Committee would be directed to the
propriety and necessity of beginning additional works, and
he believed that, without adding the consideration of such
a question to the labours of the Finance Committee, those
who composed it would find that they hid very little sur-
plus time to dispose of. It would be for the select com-
mittee to consider how far certain works had been proper
and necessary, and how far it would be -right to put
a stop to any of the plans now iu progress. The Acts to
which be had alluded would be particularly. examined by
the Committee. They might be well-framed or ill-framed ;
awl if the latter, it was necessary that they should he
amended.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, as allusion had been made to
him, it became necessary for him to state -that he had
nothing to do with the formation of this Committee, but he
would, as head of the Woods and Forests Department, do
every thing in his power to give effect to this inquiry.
Sir J. YORKE was very glad he had heard the speech
of his Hon. Ft lend, because if he happened to say any thing
unpleasant on the subject, it would be understood that lie
did not mean to apply it to his Hon. Friend or to the Hon.
Baronet, or indeed to any gentleman in particular. But.
t did appear to him to be very extraordinary, that after
they had been toll that it was not likely that the Finance
Committee would terminate their labours this session, his
Hon. Friend should have abducted or subtracted six mem-
bers from that Committee. With all the ingenuity which,
his Hon. Friend was in the habit of displaying,• lie (Sir
J. Yorke) did not think lie could be able to get out of this
dilemma. An Huneorable :Member opposite (Mr. Hutne)
very properly suggested, on the appointment of the Com-
mittee, that they should subdivide themselves into 10 Com-
mittees, in order that the House might receive a report from
each of these ten sections during the present session—and
that the public might quickly be put into possession of
an account of the manner in which the public money
was spent. If this suggestion had been attended to, the
committee would have discharged their functions more
speedily and more effectually. As to the public buildings,
they were certainly time hobbies of his lion. Friend—
(Hear, arid a laugh)—and no doubt he presided over their
direction very judiciously ; but then his Hon. Friend had
a manner which was directly against economy,—for he
was in the habit of saying, " I don't like the buildinb you
have erected here; take it down, and put up another."--
He was therefore sorry that there had been no explanation
of the reasons for abducting, as lie called it, six Members
from the Finance Committee.
Mr. BANKES did not think that there ought to have
been so much complaint because four names had been
selected from the Finance Committee. It ought to be re-
collected that the committee for which he had moved would.
only sit on two or three days in the week, when the Finance
Committee were not sitting.
Mr. R. COLBORNE obsereed, that when they saw
new buildings rising en each side of them—when they
saw those encroachments which were daily being made
upon the park, it was high time that there should no
longer be any doubt as to the intention of Government.—
He had seen numbers of trees railed round, and it ap-
peared to him to beintended to cut them down. Hethought
these were fair objects for the investigation of a committee.
It was true that the Treasury Board might do :this, but
then they hail very little leisure to bestow upon such sub-
jects, and he bad never known-a Chancellor of the Exche-
quer in that House who did not pray to be released from
this duty. lie therefore thought it highly necessary that
a committee should be appointed flue eye purpose of re-
straining and checking the extravagant expenditure of
public money on these purposes. " •
Mr. A. ELLIS wished to take this opportunity of put-
ting a question or two to the First Commissioner of Woods
and Forests. The one related to the encroachments in the
Park, which the Hon. Member whO spoke last haridverted
to. First, he wished to know whether it was intended to
cut down the north row of trees in the Mall in St. James's
Park? It would be in the recollection of the House, that

in answer to a question which came from that side of the
House last session, it was affirmed that Government would
keep to the same intention it originally held of not remov-
ing those trees. He owned that he had lately entertained
great doubts upon this subject, from perceiving the railing
which had been placed round the trees, and which was a
most extensive and offensive encroashinent.—(Hear, hear.)
He had, indeed, understood that Mr. Nash, the architect,

intended to raise a bank covered with shrubs, in order to
hide the dead wall which he (Mr. Nash) thought, and which
he (Mr. A. Ellis) admitted to be, an unseemly object. But,
if that were all that was in view, the railing ought to have
been on the north side, and the benefit of the shade of the

trees given to the public.—(Hear, hear.) _lt was rumoured,
too, that Mr. Nash had said that Parliament did not sit all

be year round, and it would be seen what would be done

wheri Parliament was not sitting. The other question was,
whether there was to be au opening into St. James's Park,

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opposite the end of Waterloo-place ? That there should be a
loot-way entrance here was so natural and evident an itn-

provement, that he should not have put the question if it
had net been rumoured that Mr. Nash did not wish there
to be any such opening.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT denied any responsibility on the
score of the execution of the plans for the improvements
in the Park : for though they were sent to his office, yet
they were proceeded on after he left it. He was, how-
ever, assured that there was no such intention as had been

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anticipated, of cutting down the trees in the Mall. - He
had the other day felt it necessary to send for Mr. Nash
and question him upon the subject ; and both from the
Government and Mr. Nash he had received the must posi-
tive assurances that it was not intended to cut down the
trees. It bad been by the express command of his Ma.

jesty, that a public carriage-road had ken made from
Pimlico to Storey's-gate, and that part of the park in
which the cattle grazed opened to the public.—(Cheers.)—
When he recited on the King with the plans, his Majesty,
putting his finger on the place, said, " It is my wish that
all that open part should be given to the public."--
(Cheers).—In a won!, there was every.diaposition to con-
sult the convenience of the inhabitants of the metropolis.
Wills respect to the other question of the Hon. Member,
he was bound in candour to say, that no such opening as
that he had mentioned appeared on the plans which he
(Mr. Arbuthnot) saw.
Mr. HERRIES said it Was he who, last year, as Se-
cretary to the Treasury, answered the question last alluded
to by the Hon. Member (Mr. A. Ellis.) Lie then stated
that it was the intention of Government to act accord-
ing to the plans, and not to destroy any of the trees
in the Mall, with the exception of one tree which was
situated in the line of the wall. At that time a plan
of the nature of the alterations was land before the.
House, and that plan, as liir as he knew, had not been al-
tered. So recently as yesterday, he had asked the archi-
tect if he thought that any latitude, in respect of depart-
ing from the plans, had hem given him, and the architect
said, " No ;" and added, that it was not his intention to
make any alteration in the plans. While on his legs, he
might perhaps be allowed to allude to the abduction, as it
had been called by some Members, of the Finance Com-
mittee—an abduction, he must observe, altogether un-
sought for by them, and made without their consent. But
he did not think that that abduction ought to appear at all
inconsistent or absurd to the Hon. Baronet, even from his
own reasoning. - For, as this part of the public expendi-
ture was to be brought under the consideration of the
Finance Committee, surely that Committee would he the
better prepared to deal properly with it, if a. few of their
Membeis were employed in investigating and arranging the
subject for the consideration of all of them. He did not
think any detriment could possibly ensue from the Com-
mittee being preceded in their labours by the labours of a
kw Gentlemen selected from among themselves. With
respect to the word " suspicious," he did not know in
What sense the Hon. Baronet meant to apply it to him (Mr.
}ferries) and the three others selected with him. If the
Hon. Baronet meant to say that because he was so closely
connected with Government he should take steps to cloak
or conceal any part of the system—if the Hon. Baronet
supposed him capable of going into any committee to which
he should be appointed by that House, to be instrumental
in crushing or misleading the inquiries of such Committee
the Hon. Baronet imputed to him—and he thought he
might answer for the other three as well as himself—con-
duct of which he was totally incapable, and which lie re-
pelled with all the strong feelings de person who felt him-
self unjustly accused.
Mr. N. CALVERT, as we understood him,. said that
the wooden bridge iii the Park had been a great conve-
nience to the northern and western parts of the metropolis,
and asked if there was any thing substituted for it?
Mr. ARBUTHNOT .did not find any thing of the kind
in the plans.
Mr. Alderman WOOD wished to know if it were in-
tended that Members of Parliament should have the use of
the new road in the Park, in coming down to the House?
Mr. ARBUTHNOT thought he 'had already answered
that question when he stated that there was to he a public
road from Pimlico to Storey's-gate.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Sir J. GRAHAM was extremely glad to hear what had
fallen from the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Herrics, however, bad
totally misunderstood his observations. He had to assure
the Right Hon. Gentleman that he had no intention of
saying any thieg that was at all disrespectful of him, and
he (Sir J. Graham) was sorry the Right Hon. Gentleman
had thought he had.—The motion was then agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
in agreeing to the vote which be was about to propose, the
House would not pledge itself to any opinion whatever.—
With this observation be merely propaoed calling on the
House to vote for the appropriation of the sum of
2,164,0001., which would be paid by the trustees of
naval and military pensions on the sth of April and the
6th of July.
On the motion being put,
Mr. CALCRAFT said until the Finance Committee made
their report the House could do nothing. He did, how-
ever, regret that now that the Finance Committee had been
sitting for five weeks, they hail presented no statement by
which the public accounts could be made more intelligible,
and by which it could be shown how they would vary on
the 6th of July next, when they were to begin a sew year
with an additional burden. All they had had was one re-
port. which, as it would be discussed hereafter, he would say
nothing about now. He must confess that a night or ttwo
ago an Hon Baronet near him had alarmed him respecting
the course which the Finance Committee were to adopt.
The Hon. Baronet had said that though they had an annual
expenditure of 50,000,0001., yet so much of it was dis-
posed of in fixed payments, that the Finance Committee
would only have 19,000,0001. or 20,000,0001. to deal with,
and that these) 9,090,000/. or 20,000,000/. were absorbed in
our establishments which were then under the consideration
of the Committee, in order that they might see what reduc-
tions could be made in them. Now this was all very good.
'But then the income which was raised from the pockets of
the people was 58,000,0001., and by some means
8,000,000/. were deducted before they arrived at that net
income of b 0,000,000/. Whatever difference there was
between their gross and net income, which he stated to be
8,000,0001., ought to be narrowly sifted and examined by
the Finance Committee.—(Hear, hear.)..---He therefore
gave his Hon. Friend a mass of 27,000,0001. to deal with,
where his Non. Friend thought he had only 19,000,0001.
He recollected hearing, some years ago, when Lord Cas-
tlereagh was Minister in that House, that a proposition was
made to Lord Liverpool, of uniting the Boards of Customs
and Excise, and that it was said that by this union
1,500,0001. a year would be saved. He did not mean to
pledge himself that it was true that such a saving could lie
made, or to say that it would be right to unite the two
Boards, but a person perfectly acquainted with the Customs
and Excise, made the proposition to Lord Liverpool,
who was inclined to attend to it, and Lord Castlereagh
put it aside for a reason which he (Mr. Calcraft) did
not think it proper to mention then. At those two
Boards there were thirty-four Commissioners and As-
sistant Commissioners, and he did think this an immense
body of persons to transact the business of the Boards

and that a very gre►t reduction might be made.—
He was glad to hear the explanation given respecting the
other Committee, because he thought that it rose out of a
schism in the Finance Committee. At the same time,
after the explanation bad been made, he had heard no solid
reason assigned for appointing that Committee ; for if four
or five of the most active Members of the Finance Com-
mittee could be spared, then it was clear that the Finance
Committee could have sat oftener. He thought the Hon.
Member for Montrose was right in his proposition for the
appointment of several Committees. However, all he
meant to say was, that these 8,000,0001. which dropped
between the cup and the lip, were paid by the people, but
swallowed up in the expense of collection and other pay-
ments, ought to undergo a most minute and detailed exami-
nation ; and he did hope that, before Easter, they should
have from the Finance Committee a much more clear state-
ment of the pitblic accounts than was presented in what was
called the balance sheet.

Sir I. YORKE wished to ask his Right Hon. Friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer), who he knew was not
like Mr. Pitt, a heaven-born tninister,—indeed, his Right
Hon. Friend came into office without knowing much more
.than that two and two made four—(hear, and laughter)—
or at all events knowing very little about Treasury affairs
—(loud laughter)—he wished to ask his Right Hon.
Friend, who be was sure would not take upon himself the
heaven-born line of conduct, whether in his opinion Mr.
Fin!Dyson, that modern Cocker, as he called him, had taken
very exaggerated views on this subject?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
really alter the compliment
.his Hon. and Gallant Friend
had paid him, he did not see how he (Sir J. Yorke) could
expect him to be able to give any opinion on the mass of
figures which Mr. Finlayson had laid before them. To
the best of his judgment, however, he was satisfied that the
system had produced a loss to the country. With respect
to what had fallen from the Hoe. Member (Mr. Caleraft)
opposite, it must be evident to the House, that no Member
of the Finance Committee could tell the course which the
Committee had adopted or intended to adopt. But he
could assure the lion. Member that the Finance Commit-
tee had never, in the reductions they contemplated, lost
eight of the charges of collecting the revenue.
Sir J. NEWPORT did not know how it was pc:sible
for the Finance Committee to do more than they were

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doing.
Sir AI. W. RIDLEY said, that the charge of 8,000,000/.
consequent upon collecting the revenue, had not escaped
the notice of the Finance Committee.
Mr. CALCRAFT observed, that the ,Finance Com-
mittee, though no doubt selected with great judgment,
would not be the worse for being reminded of particular
duties as it proceeded.
Mr. BARING bore testimony to the constant exertions
of the Finance Committee, and particularly to those of the
Hon. Chairman, whose attention to its business was un-
remitting.

Mr. HUME said that the money named in the:vote was
money to be received from the Bank in the way of loan,