The Sun.
London, England, 1821-04-18 00:00:00

and granting political power. As he felt him-
self inadequate to the task of entering into the
details of the question, and wised not to detain
.those Noble Lords who Were better qaalkfied to
take air expansive view of the subject, he should
Only repeat, that his opposition to the Bill arose
from piniCiples which he had embraced ever since
he had beet able to judge for himself,-and which
he hoped to unlictain to the last. day of his life.
The Earl of DA n r.rY felt the deepest regret'
at having had the Misfortune of hearing what had
just been delivered by the _Heir apparent to the
Grown. Lie was not surprised, however, at the
sentiments e'xp'ressed bS that-liltistious Indivi-
dual,. however be might regret them but .he
,could not help feeling some astenishment at those
delivered by some of the Noble Lords opposites
ail particularly at the speech Or the Noble
Lord who had OloVed-the A Meodel-e:i.t yesterday,The line of argument pursued by that Noble
Earl appeared to him completely misplaced ;
and on being asked whether the speech wars not
a good one, he could only answer, 'that it might
be good, but it should have been spoken a cen-
tury ago. It renewed all those charges made
against the Roman Catholics during the irritation
produced by the calumnious evidence Of Titus
Oates, and when a Noble Lord had been ap-
plauded in that House for saying that he would
not apprOaelia catholic woman, nor have a Ca-
tholic dog, or a Popish cat. The doctrines then
changed upon the Roman Catholics bad over and
again been-disclaimed on oath by them, and they.
had given sufficient proofs that their oaths were
to be trusted. lie had been also astonished to
hear a Rev. Prelate state, that the Catholics still
adhered to the doctrine that no 'faith was to be
kept with Heretics. !lad they not every way
disclaimed that abominable doctrine ? He should
remind those Reverend Prelates of the declaration.
of Scripture, that true Christian " charity be-
lievetli no evil," and that it was against the true
spirit of Christian charity to attribute to Roman
Catholics a thictrine which it was well known
they had repeatedly and most solemnly disclaim-
ed. When he recalled to his mind that constel.
!talon of talent arrayed in favour of the Catho-
lics. When he recollected a' Burke, a Fox, a
Pitt, a Wyndham,a Sheridan, a Dundas, a Romil-
ly, a Whitbread, and that illustrious patriot who
had dedicated a long life to the service•of his
country, whose name wouldlive in the annals of
Ireland, as long as gratitude :itself could exist
whnrn'he had lately seen followed to the grave •
by the regrets of all parties, and whose (last, in
the absence' of the mighty spirit, still rested dose
to the place of their ''Lordships' deliberations.
When lie recollected that-all these great men
considered it an act of justice, as well as a mea-
sure of security, to restore to the Catholics the
enjoyment of their rights, he felt consoled at dif-
fering in opinion with the Illustrious Individual
and the 'Right Rev. Prelates who opposed the
Bill. When also he looked before him, and saw
not the least distinguished of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters advocathe; the measure When he
beheld the friends by whom he was surround-
ed, he felt confident ,that so great 'a concur-
rence, of talent had never been united. before
on one point. This union was not the effect of ac-
cident ; as well might chance be thought to have
created the world. It would never have taken
place bad there been no grounds for the opinion
which he was now delivering in support of the
Bill. If the force of long continued opiuli;ns and
prejudices had not warped the judgment of the
opponents of the measure, they at least'viewed
its dangers through 'a medium which distorted
and magnified their nature. What would be the
only immediate effect of the Bill ? The admission
to their birth-right of the Duke of Norfolk, the
Earl of Shrewsbury,—in all five or six represen-
tatives of the most ancient families in the country.
Wou.ld their Lordships seriously contend that any
danger would accrue to Church and State from
the restoration of such characters to their rights ?
It had been asserted that a system of exclusion
had always existed, and was coeval with Magna
Charta itself. But those who expressed such
opinions forgot the times of Queen Elizabeth.--
Then indeed might she have considered the
Popish 'Religion as inimical to her interests. She
was assailed by every danger ; she was even ex-
communicated by the Pope, and yet did she re-
fuse a Catholic Counsellor, or a Catholic Com-
mander of her fleets and armies ? No, she did
not even exclude the Catholics from sitting in
i'arliament. In the Test Act, passed in the reign

of Charles If. -a provision Was made to guard
against its affecting any Peers sitting in that
House.' It was only five years afterwards, after
the panic produced by the agency of Titus Oates,
that the measure had been made general. But it
Might be said, that although the Bill would only
introduce six Catholic Peers into that House, the
House of Commons, being formed by popular
election, might become wholly Popish. The
small number of Catholics -in this country ren-
dered the danger, as far as England was concern-
ed, imaginary. fow stood the matter with re-
spect to Ireland ? Might not the one hundred
Irish Members be all Catholics ? These Mem-
bers were chiefly for comities and for open bo-
roughs, and those who knew any thing of
county elections in Ireland, must be aware that
they were any thing but popular. He would
rather call them aristocratical, for though the
people were Catholics, vet they acted entirely
under the influence of -Protestant •landlords.—
Four or five Catholic Members might possibly be
returned to Parliament, and supposing them to
be conspirators ag-ainstChurch and State, would
not the Protestants still retain the rod in their
bands ? Would it not be in their power to tread
back their steps; to say you have deceived us ?---

And could a doubt be 'entertained of the conces..
sions being repealed ? HOw was it possible that
a King, surrounded withProtestanrCOUnsellors,"-
should admit a Catholic to 'any office of high trust • •
except by the thvice of these Counsellors.? But
it might certainly, -happen, after the lapse of '
few. years, that transcendentmerit would audio; • •
rise such an elevation. Had a Noble Thai, op--•
posite (the Duke of Wellington)6eit a Cathelici.
he •did not believe that the most. Protestant Mi.-
nisters would have been disposed to reftise to
great services the honours with which they hatr
been rewarded., He could- find no -reason to :sup.,
pose that the power proposed to be granted :to the"-
Roman Catholics would -be =Tied to any #x'-'
tens, but if it were be was convieeed•it would no! •
be abused. They had given every 'pledge of sin- •
cerity in agreeing to the oaths proposed, ,atid•
,they ought to be. believed on their -oaths, waien,
they were only excluded from all the -adyanta?.,ea-
of their birth-right by their,respect for oaths. •
Instead of endangering, be felt confident that the
.•
present Bill would confirm. and' strengthen the.. •
best interests of
.Church and State. • , That great
measure of Christian charity,. of true policy and •
substantial justice, must. ultimately pass. He
would tell the Roman Catholics to pursue- the
same line of moderation and forbearance which
they had hitherto adopted ; he would-te)l th,!ist
that the spirit of liberality would progressively
.increase, and that sooner or later, and whatever
might be the fate of the motion this night, it
would be soon, they would be met by their Protea •
tant brethren in the enjoyment of coalition right,.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he"rose to op.
pose the second reading of the Bill, because,
whatever distinctions the Noble. Mover might
think proper to make, the real question • before
them was, whether they could agree so far in the
enactments of the present Bill, as to think it
worth while to attempt a remedy to its imper-
fections in the Cominittee ? lie had heard with.
regret the observations of the Noble Mover With
resPect to histonduct and that of a Noble Earl
(of Liverpool), when the first reading of the Bill
was proposed ; but as they felt it to be thei_.•
duty to adopt the course which they had takea
with regard to the measure, though he regretted
the observations, he could not say that he -wars
sorry for the conduct which produced them. Ire
would beg leave, in the first instance; _to make
one obserVation on the view which the Noble
Lord who had just sat down had taken of that •
Bill. Ile was pleased to say, that sooner or later
it must be •carried; still, however, attached'as
he was to the civil, and religious liberties of this
country, including in his notion of them the to-
leration of all, he would continue to do his duty
by expressing his sentiments,.." through good
and through evil report," and if the majority.of
their Lordships should be of opinion that he was
in error, he would at least enjoy the satisfaction
of feeling that his error was not willingly com-
mitted. The question now was, as he had stated
in other words before, whether the Bill was cap.;
able of such improvement, that their Lordships
would make up their minds. to pass something•
like it? If lie was
.of opinion that any rneasurt.
with a similar object ought to be"adopted,
was not the measure, but aoother and a •different-
one. The Noble Earl was,pleased to say, than.'
those who opposed the Bill constantly changed
their ground, but he might have said with more,
correctness, that' its advocates _were, constantly
changing their ground. had been his painful
duty to oppose motions for going into Committee
on the question from time to time since th •
Union ; for he thought it was not by _a Com-
mittee, but by a distinct measure that any
'proceeding should be . takers, if it was- lit
that it should be taken at all. He had al-
ways disapproved of the former course, because
he was unwilling to hold out expectations to his"
Majesty's Catholic subjects, as he was willing to
call them, though a march was attempted to be
stolen on the Protestant in the very language of
the Bill. He did not say that the object of those
who brought in the Bill was such, but if it was.
such, it could not have been better provided for.,
There was no man who entertained a more affec-
tionate regard for the late Mr. Pitt than he dill,
and if he did net feel it to be his unbending duty
not to surrender his own opinion, even, to the opi-
nion of that great man, he would have seconded
the Resolutions which were proposed after th
Union.. But he felt that unless Mr. Pitt could
show him what securities he meditated, he was
bound to oppose him ; and he would state tha
he had never heard from that distinguished indi-
vidual, the mention of any particular securities,
though he had always admitted that they ever.:
necessary. In had pleased God to deprive this
country 'Allis services, 'and he lay buried in th,
sepulchres of mortality. But still they had great
men left. The Noble Baron near him was one
whom he had always looked up to with the high-
est reverence, and he thought that securities were
necessary. They were both great and constant
friends of the. Protestant Establishment; and
they felt that while it was.proper to conciliate
the Catholic mind, it was essential that the Pro-
testant mind should not be disturbed by the a-
teration. But lie would ask,, was there ever a
description'of securities proposed which the pre:,
would he willing to give and the other to accept I
—Were they not at the present moment in the
situation ofsgranting privileges without any seri,-
rifles at all ? lie was ready to admit that if ;t
could be done without danger, it ought to be-
done. He, denied that they coutd legiatt•e:
on the principle a hich was stated by a
Right Reverend Prelate last night.--It was;
in, his opinion, .the duty. of a State •to lake,
care of the religion. of the country. 'Fortunately,.
for the country, it had adopted that •re li,gion