The Sun.
London, England, 1828-05-10 00:00:00

some Hon. Members said that the exercise of that spiritual
influence was only temporary—be thought, otherwise.
As to the assertion that if the question were conceded it
would put an end to the excitement and expectations of
the Catholics of Ireland—if he thought so he would be one
of the first to concede emancipation; but he was con-
vinced the concession would have no such effect, but quite the
contrary—this was the reason that he persevered in his
opposition to concession.-. Again, it was asserted that the
concession of these claims would. give Catholic property its
legitimate influence, and se tend to dissolve the Catholic
Association. Now he was convinced that thco,igh the Catho-
lic Association may dissolve for a time, it would soon revive
in another shape and under another name. Whether a
society for the imprevement of Ireland, or for the dissolu-
tion of the union, or for the diffusion of education, it would
continue a lay executive for the instrumentality of spiri-
tual influence. For both these Catholic interests, namely,
the lay, and the ecclesiastical, understood each other
well ; and all that the Catholic Clergy wanted' for the
promotion of these views was an ostensible, and cen-
tral body. of laymen, such as the Catholic Association.
That body would have the complete controul of the. Mem-
bell that would be returned. by the Catholic influence in
Ireland. He owned that there was great difference of opi-
nionastq what would be the effect of introducing a body
of Catholics into that House, and it was asked, that, even
supposing there were 100 of them, was it do be supposed
that the, rest of the. House would let them vote away the
Established Church ? No ; they would not do so if it was
put in direct terms. The citadel would be taken by sae.
prise, not by storm.—(Cheers.)—The Right Hon. Gentle-
man (the Member for Newcastle) has proposed a plan, ap-
plicable to this objection, which he (Mr. Foster) was sur-
prised had not yet been alluded to. The lion. Member's
plan was to deprive the political phalanx of all power of
voting on questions in any manner connected with the Esta-
blished Church. But sure he was that his lion. Friend
would shrink from following his plan into its painful de-
tails. If it could be safely put in praCtice, he (Mr. F.)
would admit that it did offer something having the appear-
ance of a security, but it would be impossible to carry the
Right Hon. Gentleman's plan into effect. The Right Hon.
Gentleman would allow the Catholic Members the liberty
of sPeaking on questions of tithes, and other matters rela-
tive to the Church—of presenting petitions on them, and
offering their opinion, but would then turn them out of the
House.—(llear.)---Would not every argument now used
with respect to the degrading situation in which they were
now placed, apply then with even greater force, from
being brought immediately before their eyes?—(Cheers.)
—But if they were admitted, they would not adopt the
clumsy plan of directly attacking the Established 'Church,
but would more artfully weaken it by conferring power
and emoluments 011 their own.—(Hear.)—That was the
natural course they would take. Another strong objec-
tion to the Catholics ever being admitted to that House was
the fact, against which they could not shut their eyes, of
the influence a large united party inthat House could exer-
cise more effectually out of it than it. A conference in a
Ministerial closet would have more effect than a dozen
speeches in that House. In critical times, in nicely balanced
parties, could it be supposed such conferences would not
take place? (near, hear.) The words give, sell, and
exchange, would not be there used ; soft names would be
given to• the bargains that would be made, but they would
have a powerful effect. For example, representations, if
reasonable it would be for the Catholics to be exempt from
the payment of church rates, would be made, accompanied
with an intimation that that body of Members had not yet
made up their minds upon the corn or any other question
that might be about to undergo discussion. In the same
manner a Catholic Board of Education, and other things
not now dreamed of, would be proposed and carried. He
would even suggest to Hon. Members on the other side of
the House, who were now so much occupied with a matter
they considered of great importance, that a party of
the kind he had named, might convey it to the Mi-
nister, that they had the greatest possible objection to
the payment of tithes, but none in life to the ap-
pointment of a Lieutenant General of the Ordnance.
(Hear, bear, and laughter.) The hest aspect in which
they could look at the prospect such a measure as that
called Catholic Emancipation held out, was, that there
would be two Established Churches in. Ireland. But he
would say, that when matters had reached this point,
which Hon. Members seemed so anxiously to wish, the
situation of Ireland, so far from being changed for the
better, would, in his opinion, be in an infinitely more dis-
turbed state than it was at present.—(Hear, hear.) He
could not subscribe to the proposition attempted to be es-
tablished by some Hon. Gentlemen, that the state Might
to be totally indifferent to the religion of its subjects; and
that the law of England ought for the future to have no
opinion upon that point. Whatever might be proper for
the future, he was sure there was no lawyer who would
assert, that that bad as yet been the Constitution of Eng-
land. Ever since England bad been a State, the Consti-
tution had a decided opinion upon the religion of the land,
and he trusted that it would continue to do so, as long as
England aspired to be considered a Christian nation.—
(Hear.) The attempt now made was a sacrifice of prin-
ciple at the shrine ofexpediency.—(Cheers. ) He did not ob-
ject to expediency, a just and proper expediency, having
its due weight, but he felt that a yielding of principle to
. .
expediency was the vice of the times-principle was no-
thing.

sod to
Nos facimus, Fortuna, Deam, ezeloque locamus.
(Cheers.)—It had been urged, that the Church of Scot,.
land was a separate establishment. But from all that he
had been able to learn on the subject, there was no difference
between it and the Church of England, except on matters
of Church Government. The case was far different with
the Church of Rome, and he could not forbear raising his
voice against the assertion that there was no difference be.
tween it and the Church of England. (Hear.) He
meant to say, that the difference between them was irre-
concileable. One or other of them, so great was the dif-
ference, had most awfully perverted those Scriptures on
which Christiana founded their hopes. It was contrary to all
principles of law, to religious truth, for a Legislature to treat
religion as a matter so perfectly indifferent as to establish two
Churches differing in their doctrine', in the same country,
as the Church of Rome and the Church of England.--
(Hear !)—He did not mean to say that this measure would
cause the abrogation of the English Church in Ireland;
hut undoubtedly all the substantialities of wealth, conse-
quence, and influence, would attach to the other church,
and this again would lead it to political power, and that
political power it would never cease to use as long:as it
had any one thing to gain, or its rival any thing to
lose. (Cheers.) The Solicitor-General for Ireland had last
night intimated to him that the expression of these
sentiments might cost him his seat in that House ; that,
by ematinging the course into which he bad entered, the
county he hpd the honour to represent would not, at the
next election, return him for its member. He might re-
gret being deprived of that honor ; but he should despise
himeelf, entertaining the strong opinion he did on the sub-
ject, if he were to allow his worldly interests to interfere
with his duty.--(Chars. )--At the same time, be might
perhaps be allowed to say, that if be could reconcile his,
commence to change thp vote he had always given on this
question, no Nember would be more certain of his seat than
himself.—(Cheers,),—Put he would not now disavow feel,
jogs be had conscientiously entertained and avowed for
twenty years. By the blessing of God, let what might
betide him, lie should not change his opinions on so mean
Tegsoe.e.e(Pheers.)--Other Gentlemen, with deafer
views—whether iniiniTced by principle, interest, exte-
dieney, or election views---might take what course they
pkeed.—(Heer, bear.)—lf they thought the pep,rse they
took was aoulated to tranquillize Ireland let them pursue
it, but let them not insist upon being followed by tio,e
who feared their road would lead to ruin. If the suemed
ed in their undertaking; he should not claim any pat of
its glory, and at least, if it failed, he should be exempt
from any portion of its disgreee, if not of its misfortmes-
But let the result be what it might? .he Rho* always Lave
the satisfaction of reflecting that he had anted eceording
to
his sense of duty.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. DOGHERTY said, that he was sorry the HO.
and Parned Gentleman had so nisundtritood him, as tr'
in)Vini? AAt pny thing he said was intended !.^ deter h!,113
ottlfti)lowing hi,seenstistent course of opposition. lie
did not intend last iiight to 4„cs.;Tilae. any particular indi-
vidual, hut a class of highly resiiientable mad intelligent
Zil,lnnbers of that House, Representatives of 'lreland, wh6,
would be Deprived of their seats, not because they ougM
to lose them, but treatise the Catholics, who were the
great body of the Electors in that country, would make
the fact of supporting' their eleirns,'Cle criterion, and se
criterion, in his (Mr. Doherty s) mind improperly,
merit in a Representative. With respect to 'the Hon. aria
Learned Gentleman, himself, he could with truth 'say; that
there was not in that House an individual for whom be eri-
tertained a more sincere respect.
Mr. W, lIORTON. --When I state that this is the flrt.P
time since A have had a seat in this House, that I have has
an opportunity of expressing my sentiments on this subject,
I trust that the House will lend, kr a ebort time, a small
partion of its attention. Sir, my Honourable Priem} who
would insinuate the
all
has just now addressed the Howe, appears to me to haVe
mostt
xe characteristicsalarmingiricoi
taken .up a train of reasoning, which, if followed up,
hear.)—He admitspeesen,
unhappy Government of Ireland; he admits that the
principles.
—("r1
Priesthood exercised a practical interference in the list
election; be admit, the corectness of the statements•made,