The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-03 00:00:00

read the history of his country and Ireland, and when he had thrown his mantle of protection over the Attorney-General for
done so he blushed for England ; he had never seen more Ireland. if my Right Hon. Friend had interfered in any de-
atrocious acts committed by any civilised country to another gree to shelter an absent officer from attacks couched in no
than those that had been committed towards Ireland.— , very measured terms, and founded upon facts which, undoubt-
(Hear. ) flow, be would ask, could he remain quiet, and see edly, are notorious, but which are put forth by newspaper re.
sessi•in after session pass away in that House without ports, Ido riot think my Right Hen. Friend is a fair object of
any attempt to redress the grievances of Ireland, and he con- i the censure weich is sought now to be cast upon him by the
fessed that if he was an Irishman, he did not know how far his Hon. Gen; tleman who has ju t sat down. Sir, I think that a
feelings would carry hits.—( A laugh.) He had not met with I much more worthy course is pursued by those who do not
much favour in that House. He did not know why, because press forward exaggerated accusations against an absent
ever since he had had a .rat he had conducted himself with ; man, bet who seek to impress on the House that,
courtesy to every Alember.—( Hear, hear.) He did not pro- I whi.e they do not vindicate specific acts, they do, at
fess to be blessed with eloquence, but he had studied the ques- ; least, impress on the House to consider those infirmities
tions brought before the House and endeavoured to understand ! to which not the Attorney-General alone is subject,
them.—( Hear, hear. ) If however, he was not to be allowed ; I listened with great pain to the able, but I must say needlessly
to express his sentiments, the House should tell him so, in embittered, speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath.
order that his constituents might be enabled to send a better I I listened with pleasure—if pleasure can be derived from a
Member.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Member concluded by ! discussion such as the present —to the more temperate language
stating that the amendment had his cordial support. in which the Right Hon. Member for Waterford has addressed
THE IRISH ATTORNEY-GieNERAL. the Houee. I will venture to say, that my Right Hon. Friend
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that as allusion had been made to does not, as the Hon. Member for Wycombe has just stated,
the State trials in Ireland, he would take that opportunity of concur in the abstract with the language or the sentiments of
putting a question to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head the lion. and Learned Member for Bath ; but Ido think that
of her Majesty's Government. He wished to know whether abstractedly arid practically there was little or no difference
the Government had had their attention directed to the con- between the feelings of my Right Hon. Friend and the views
duct of the person who was the head law °Meer of the Go- and .eelings expressed by the Right lion. Member for Water-
vernment in Ireland, and who was conducting the prosecu- ford. We none of us can vindicate the unfortunate circum-
tions that were taking piece there? He would not allude to stance which has led to this debate; but is the Hon. Gentleman
the probable result of those prosecutions, out of respect for who has brought forward this discussion himself free from all
the course the House seemed to have laid down, although he infirmities of temper ?—( Cheers and laughter.) The taunts—
held it perfectly competent for him to do so. However he the goads—l do not say one, but a succession of purposed,
might differ from the House on that point, yet feeling re- intentional, continued, bitter personal taunts—might be in-
spect for the due administration of justice, he was prevented capable of moving the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; but I
from being silent or deterred from putting the question he was am not ashamed to say, that long as my experience
about to do.—( Hear, bear.) If there was any one thing that has been in this House, I have learnt—l speak ho-
more than another ought to distineuish State prosecutions nestly-1 have learnt, day by day, how difficult
it was that they should be conducted with no vindictive- it is to sit patiently and hear attacks of a much
ness—if anything mere than another ought to dis- more mitigated character than those to which the At-
tinguish them, it was cairn, decorous, and considerate be- torney-General for Ireland has been subjected. lam not
Laviour.—( Hear, hear.) He would appeal to the House— ashamed to confess that I have used hasty and irritating words
—not to Ireland, but to England—whether such calmness, de- in reply, which afterwards I have regretted. Feeling that
corum, or considerate behaviour, had beers evinced by the At- infirmity myself, I, at least, can make allowances for the posi-
torney- General for Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) In the presence tion of the Attorney-General for Ireland. And what was that
°Nile assembled Judges of the law, the maintainers of the law, position? It was not that which has been incorrectly attri-
and the mainta ners of peace, there had been one of the most buted to him by the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down.
gr iss breaches of the decencies of his situation committed by It was not that the Government was conscious of the infirmity
the Attorney-General of Ireland.--( Hear, hear. ) He was at anti incompetence of the officer that they thought it necessary
the present time prosecuting a man whom he called a great to caution him against being led into irritation. On the con-
criminal, for bringing in danger the peace of the country, and hearty, it was only the day before this unfortunate occurrence
the first thing he did was to commit a gross breach of the law took place that the Government had expressed to the Attorney-
himself, for which he ought to have been immediately General, in terms strong indeed, but not more strong than
committed by the Judges.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") merited. the full satisfaction which they felt at the coolness, the
He was liable at the present moment to an indictment, and temper, the moderation andjudgment, displayed by him in the
he hoped he would be subjected to it.—( Hear, hear.) It was conducting of these important trials. There was no caution
his pride to speak these sentiments in the presence of the At- given to the Attorney-General; but the Attorney-General
torney-General for England, whose conduct, to his praise be it wrote a few hours before the intelligence was received of the
spoken, was widely different to that of the,Attorney-Generalfor occurrence of that circumstance which has led to the present
Ireland —( Hear, hear.) The Attorney-General for England discussion. The Attorney-General said, " There has evidently
had done all he could to conciliate, while the Attorney-Gene- been an attempt made to drive true into some act of indiscre-
ral for Ireland had attempted every means to light the torch tion, which may be injurious to me, I say, speaker after
of discord.—(Hear, hear.) The Judges of Ireland had be- speaker has attempted to fix on me a personal imputation."
hayed exceedingly remiss, they were filled with consideration lam swing that which the lion. and Learned Member for
for the officer, but forgot the vindication of the law.—( Hear, Bath has said led to what he calls a caution from my Right
hear.) What should the Judges have done ? They should Hon. Friend near me, and I am stating the substance of a
have instantly committed him.—( Hear.) Nothing could letter received from the Attorney-General himself a few hours
have been more unhappily conducted from beginning to end before this unfortunate occurrence tcok place, in which he
than these State trials. What moral influence (said the Hon. stated that he was determined to keep the strictest watch over
and Learned Gentleman) can these State trials have on the his feelings, that he might not compromise his own character
social interests of Ireland?—( Hear, hear.) I ask my Right or that of the Government. Ido not conceal my regret at
Hon. Friend opposite, supposing that our positions were re- what has occurred, but I bring this forward to show that
versed—supposing that I was prosecuting for the Crown, and there was no premeditated intention on the part of the Attor-
that he was defending the prisoners, what, 1 say, ney-General to commit any' outrage in the ordinary course of
would he have thought of me if, because he the legal proceedings, or to commit any act of violence or in-
had made the best speech he could in defence discretion. There is a very remarkable corroboration of this
of his clients, I sent him a hostile message? And yet the view of the case in the speech of the Right Hon. Member for
Attorney-General for Ireland had acted so. Yes, the head of Waterford. What does he tell you? He says, in vindication
the bar._( Hear, hear.) An effective speech for a client is of Mr. Fitzgibbon, " I know nothing of Mr. Fitzgibbon—l
sure to draw down his wrath. Why did he not carry out the know nothing of his speeches, except from the newspapers."
principle and challenge the jury.—( Laughter.) I don't know But the Right Hon. Member for Waterford tells you that
that even the Judges are safe.—( Laughter, and cries of those expressions which had appeared to have given so much
" Hear, hear.") Such things have happened in Ireland. It offence to the Attorney-General, were not expressions of the
was the wish of the Government to preserve the union. In counsel, nor conveyed the feelings of Mr. Fitzgibbon. He tells
order to do so they did not set an example of that moderation vou that they were not the expressions of the counsel himself,
which distinguished the tribunals of this country, on the part but he tells you they were the expressions of the client. That
of those presiding there, where there is an absence of all emotion oas the statement of the Right Hon. Member for Waterford.
—where the Judgesseem impassable to irritation or excitement— The Right Hon. Member for Waterford said, that two or three
( Hear, hear)—and their demeanours command the respect of days previous he heard the powerful speech of Mr. Shell, and
the criminal. I told the Government last year that the At- the Hon. Gentleman justly and fairly stated that he felt him-
torney-General for Ireland for unfit for his situation, and I now self how difficult it must be for the Attorney-General to keep
emphatically demand the ignominious dismissal of that most his temper, when made the subject of attacks so personal, so
unworthy official.—( Hear, hear,) I ask it in the name of eloquent, so bitter, and so severe, as those which fell from Mr.
violated justice, decency, and honour—( Hear, hear)—and I Shell. (Mr. Wyse intimated dissent.) I certainly so under-
have no fear whatever of receiving from the Learned Gentle- stood the Right Hon. Gentleman.
man a"a three-cornered note."—(Laughter.) And if any Mr. WYSE—That was a preceding day.
thing could possibly add disgrace to the act, it was the manner laird STANLEY—I said it was on a preceding day—that
in which it was done.—( Hear, hear.) The Attorney- was the first attack. The Right Hon. Gentleman spoke justly
General having forgotten his position, and having been called and fairly. He says that on the first day, when the Attorney-
upon to explain what he meant, turned round upon his oppo- General was exposed to the bitterness of the attack of Mr.
vent, who acted like a gentleman, and in the language of a Shen, he felt how difficult it would be, if it were his case,
lawyer, called upon him to make an affidavit.—( Hear, hear, for himself to keep his temper. Two speeches of counsel fol-
hear. ) That was mixing the court of honour with the court of lowed that of Mr. Sheil before Mr. Fitzgibbon commenced the
justice with a vengeance. I find the mode in which the pre- attack upon the Attorney-General. Ido not state that in
sent trials have been conducted will be fraught with, mischief. vindication of the error into which the Attorney. General
But let us forget the ludicrous part of the affair. Have the afterwards fell ; but Ido state it in order to express an earnest
first principles of justice, honour, decency, and everything dear hope that upon such information as that which we now possess
to this country, been respected in attempting to vindicate the —derived from newspaper intelligence—not being judges of, the
laws ?—( Cheers.) manner or the gesture of the party—for there are many words
Sir ROBERT PEEL deeply regretted that the Hon. and which read very harmlessly, but when spoken possess a heavier
Learned Gentleman had felt himself called upon by a sense of meaning-1 do hope that the House will not condemn in so
public duty to make the observations which he had made upon sweeping a manner, and in such unmitigated terms as those
the conduct of the Attorney-General for Ireland.—( Hear, proposed by the Han. and Learned Member for Bath, an ab-
hear, from the Ministerial benches. )—He was resolved to ad- sent officer of the Crown, who, during the performance of
here to the rule which he had laid down last night, not to most arduous and laborious duties, in a moment of weakness
offer any observations or comments upon the matter now was led to commit a momentary offence, for which he has
pending in Ireland, lest such observations might lead already expressed his regret. And I trust that that allowance,
to further discussion. Ile was resolved to adhere implicity to which in my heart and conscience I feel is due to him, and
the sentiment expressed in the speech from the throne, not which I should expect for myself, the House of Commons will
even to introduce collateral topics. He must say that he con- show to tt e Attorney-General.
sidered the comments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman Mr. Sergeant MURPHY did not think the protection
upon the conduct of the Attorney-General for Ireland much which had been cast over the Attorney-General by the speech
more severe and censorious than that conduct merited.— of the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government
(Cries of " Oh, ols," from the Opposition.) It was impossible had been at all improved by what had fallen from the Noble
altogether to vindicate the Attorney-General's conduct.— Lord. He thought the Noble Lord had merely confirmed the
(Hear, hear.) In the principles laid down by the Hon. and charge brought against the Attorney-General. He (Mr.
Learned Gentleman as to the manner in which this prosecu- sergeant Murphy) would venture to say that the conduct of
tion had been conducted, he entirely concurred, that there the Attorney-General would be met throughout the country,
should be an absence of all irritation and excitement, and that both by Whig and Tory, with but one feeling. When the
decency and order should be rigidly preserved. But a very people of this country saw that the solemn administration of
few hours before the scene to which allusion had been made the law, the beat safeguard of our rights, was violated by those
had taken place, the Attorney-General, in a letter to the Home whose place it was to uphold it, lie questioned whether any
Secretary, expressed his full concurrence in these principles, man could be found in England, no matter what his shade of
and upon the propriety of conducting the trials with as much politics might be, who would not look upon the splenetic and
coolness and temper as possible. It was a momentary occur- intemperate outb. eak of the Attorney-General but as a dese-
rence. That there had been much irritation displayed, and ins- cration of the temple of justice—a desecration of that temple,
properly displayed, could not be denied. He repeated, that it not at a time when one man was being tried within it, but
was impassible for him entirely to vindicate the conduct when an entire country, by a multitudinous indictasent, had
of the Attorney-General ; but let some allowance be made for been dragged before the tribunal of justice. Had the Attor-
his position—let them remember the infirmities of their own ney-General fur Ireland throughout these trials acted with that
nature, and let them not pronounce judgment on his conduct spit it of concession which eminently distinguished State
upon mere reports of isolated circumsances —(Ministerial prosecutions in this country ?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
cheers.) This was not a deliberate thing—it was Sergeant Itiu,phy) would appeal to his Hon. arid Learned
not a meditated challenge. The conduct of the Attorney-Ge- Friend the Attorney-General for England, and he would
neral had been noticed by the Chief Justice in terms which appeal to the manner in which the Chartist trials were con-
must have been exceedingly painful to him. The highest au- ducted in Lancashire. He would appeal to what fifty-nine of
thority in the Court had, in the presence of the whole Court, the persons who were arraigned, declared at the termination of
expressed dissatisfaction at his conduct. At the same time the the trials, who said, " Whether we consider the Judges—
Lord Chief Justice expressed a hope that the proceeding would whether we consider the Attorney-General—whether we look
be buried in oblivion. This too, should be remembered—the to the whole fairness of these trials--to the Judge, Counsel,
Attorney-General had asked permission to withdraw the letter. Jury, or the Attorney-General, we must feel that the law has
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had inquired whether the been administered with temper, with moderation, and with
Government had dismissed the Attorney General ? His (Sir fairness." He (Mr. Murphy) was one of the counsel on this
R. Peel's) answer was, that they had not dismissed the At- occasion, sad he could bear testimony to the truth of this.
torney-General, nor did they mean to dismiss him.—(" Hear, These trials were conducted with the calmness and temper
hear," front the Ministerial benches.) which distinguishes the Attorney-General for England. As
Air. WYSE said he could not blame the Right Hon. Ba- an Irishman, he felt in his secret soul the degradation the
ronet for entering somewhat into detail. He was willing to Irish bar had suffered by the conduct of the Attorney-
make a good deal of allowance for the Attorney-General. In General. But he was happy that it had been redeemed by
the course of the trials he had on one occasion, to his own the speech of the Right Honourable Member for Dungarvon.
knowledge, acted with forbearance. Many severe and unjusti- The Attorney-General for Ireland had gone into court, and
liable attacks had been made upon him—newspapers of all had, as it were, proclaimed that he cane there as the Crown
parties had censured him—Mr. Fitzgibbon had made a very prosecutor; but he cautioned those against whom he appeared
severe attack upon him; but, making allowance for all these that he should demand satisfaction for anything said in the
things, he :would ask the House was the conduct of the heat of the defence. This he (Mr. Murphy) said, was a most
Attorney-General likely to impress the conviction on the cogent argument in favour of the Attorney-General being
minds of the people of Ireland that the law had been fairly ignominiously dismissed. The prosecution in Ireland had been
administered ? The Attorney-General had two other courses instituted to uphold the majesty of the law. They had had
open to him. He might have called upon Mr. Fitzgibbon to the whole people looking on. They had had, as it were, as
disavow the offensive expressions, or he might have placed witnesses, Europe and America. Would not, then, such con-
himself in the hands of the Court. Neither of these things duct as that which had been displayed by the Attorney-General
had he done, but he had recourse to the ultinza ratio of arms, be, in effect, a reproach to the majesty of the law—a reproach
and acted roost indiscreetly. For the reasons already stated to the impartiality of the tribunal and the Judges of the Court ?
he would not enter into the consideration whether or not the It became, therefore, the duty of the Government of the coun-
agitation for the repeal of the union was legitimate, but he try to vindicate the majesty of the law, which alone could be
would allude to a clause in the address. It was very well done by the immediate dismissal of the first law officer of the
known that he (Mr. Wyse) had been solicited to become a Crown.
member of the Loyal National Repeal Association ; that many Sir JAMES GRAHAM was unwilling, after what had
of his constituents wished him to become a repealer, but these fallen front his Right Hon. Friend and the Noble Secretary
solicitations he declined, believing that the Imperial Parliament far the Colonies, to prolong this discussion ; yet he thought,
would do justice to Ireland. As long as he had that hope he on the present occasion, it would not be unworthy or incon-
would not wish to agitate for repeal It would depend en- sistent with his duty if he addressed a few words to the House.
tirely on this country whether such hopes were He hoped the House would remember what was the position of
realised. He was only one of a large class who this case. A great trial was pending. Her Majesty from the
held back from the repeal ranks because he be- Throne had announced that her love of justice being adminis-
lieved that a British Parliament would do them justice. tered according to law had induced her to refrain from all
But if these hopes were frustrated the cause of repeal would comment upon the trials now taking place. Notwithstanding
every day have new partisans. He hoped the clause in the the various topics which had been commented upon, in the
address was not cor tined to one or two beneficial measures course of the discussion last night, it was agreed he thought
for Ireland, but that it signified that an extensive system of on all hands, for the sake of justice, that the topics connected
policy would be pursued for the improvement of the social and with the pending trials should be avoided until a verdict should
political condition of that country. If he did not think that be pronounced by the jury now empanelled to try the case.
was the meaning of the clause, he would not support the Disregarding, however, the example of last night, in the
address.
name of justice the House was called upon to discuss a matter
Lord ELIOT said, that from his official position regarding bearing directly upon the question being tried. The Hon.
Ireland, it could not be expected he would remain silent during Gentleman who had just sat down had alluded in terms of ad-
the attack on the Attorney-General. He had been associated miration to the speech of the counsel for the defence. This
with that Hon. and Learned Gentleman for more than a year, charge had been brought against a Member of that House ;
and he must say, that a more kind-hearted man he had seldom that Member was absent, and consequently could have no op-
known. When he (the Attorney-General) came into office, portunity then of explaining more fully the merits of the case.
his first act was to receive apologies from several editors of His Right Hon. Friend and the Noble Lord the Secretary for
newspapers against which prosecutions for libels were about to the Colonies had both declared that they were not prepared to
be instituted. After the testimony which had been borne to vindicate the conduct of the Attorney-General in the particular
his forbearance by the Hon. Member for Waterford, he instance which had led to this discussion. Her Majesty's Go-
believed the Attorney-General had on many trying occasions vernment could not defend, and would not defend, an act such
during the course of these trials shown great discretion, as that which had been brought under the notice of the House.
and except upon that one occasion had not given way to any —( Hear, hear.) But he was quite sure that the Hon. and
improper excitement. Learned Gentleman who had brought forward this subject
Mr. ROEBUCK—Oh, several. must see that there were mitigating circumstances. It was
Lord ELIOT— Had not heard but of that one instance.— evident from the speech of the Right Honourable
(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He believed that on every other occa- Member for Waterford that the Attorney-General had
sion the Attorney- General had demeaned himself as became been subjected to very eloquent and personal attacks.
his station. He did not mean to vindicate the indiscretion, Ile thought the more appropriate course to have adopted would
but he felt sure that in the cooler moments of reflection he have been to have suspended their judgment until that officer
would not have acted so. Base personal and selfish motives was present to defend himself; but, to say the least of
had been attributed to the Attorney-General, and he had be- it, he thought it ungenerous, as well as unjust, to pronounce a
trayed this infirmity of temper. censure when the Attorney-General had withdrawn the terms
Ms. WYSE explained. The Noble Lord was quite mis- which were found fault with, and also, after the matter had
taken in supposing that he meant to say that the Attorney- been brought before the Court, in which it occurred, and when
General had on every occasion during the trials comported that Court had expressed its hope that no further notice would
himself with forbearance. He did not say so, nor did he mean be taken of the matter. Another circumstance, he thought,
so, nor did he think so:.' hut what he said was, that upon one also fully bore him out in the opinion which he had expressed
occasion on which he (Mr. Wyse) was present, the Attorney- with respect to the course now pursued, which was that the
General had conducted himself with great calmness, when it might Learned Counsel with whom this unfortunate quarrel occurred,
have been expected that his temper would have been broken. in a manner the most generous and becoming to him, a mem-
Lord ELLIOT replied. ber of the same profession as the Attorney-General, came
Captain BERNAL said the Right Hon. Baronet had at- down to the Court, and said that, upon reflection, he felt bound
tempted to throw his cloak over what he must term the fall to express his sorrow that any thing had occurred to wound
and fame of the Irish Attorney-General. He (Captain Bernal) the feelings of the Attorney-General, and acknowledged at
denied that at the beginning, in the middle, or at the end of the same time that he had given many provocations to the Hon.
these trials had that
,officer conducted himself in a proper and Learned Gentleman, which led to this unfortunate transac-
manner, and he had reason to know that there was only one tion, and that to the last moment of his life, he should regret
opinion among the Irish bar as to time manner in which the everything which fell from him tending lead to this occurrence.
Attorney-General had conducted himself throughout these He ( Sir J. Graham) felt bound to express his deep regret at
trials, and that was that he had behaved with great impropriety. such an event occurring during the administration of justice,
He adopted, in the fullest sense, the language of the Hon. for all legal proceedings should be held sacred for the sake of
and Learned Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck). If that Hon. the interests. of society. He hoped what had occurred this
and Learned Gentleman felt it necessary to caution the Gil- night would satisfy the House that he was quite willing to take
vernment regarding the appointment of the Attorney-General, his share of the responsibility of the course now so generally
how much more was that caution necessary when the language rev ommended by those who knew the Attorne -General for
which had been used by him in 189.7 was recollected?—He de- Ireland. y
dared in that year his belief that Irish Roman Catholics had Mr. WARD said he thought that so far as the high legal
no reverence for the sanctity of an oath. The manner qualities, the good intention, and the good heart of the Attor-
in which the Government now treated the Attorney- ney-General were concerned, they had nothing whatever to do
General resembled that in which a schoolmaster would treat his with the fact, as to whether a high legal officer of the Crown
young pupil, " Be a good boy, be sorry for what you have done, ' had discharged a great and important duty in a manner likely
and I will forgive you." If an example of decorum were not Ito reflect dignity upon the administration of justice. The
to be found ins the Court of Queen's Bench, what vanity it was I Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, had stated that the
to come down to that House, and, in the Queen's speech, ex- I Attorney-General was drawn out under circumstances calculated
press a hope that the social condition of Ireland would be im- to excite the most cool and dispassionate individual. He
proved. lle called on the House to support the lion. Member (Mr. Ward) denied that there had been any
this assertion
in was
occasionso
for Bath, and he called upon them at once to urge on the Go- for exciting irascibility, anti he thought
ert
•vernment the propriety of dismissing the Attorney-General fur borne out by the last expressions used by the Hon.
Ireland. c Baronet the Secretary for the Home
Department, who said
Lord STANLEY rose, and said the Hon. Gentleman whohas that the Learned Counsel hail acted its a gentlemanly and
just sat down complained of my Right Hon. Friend baying uentroas manner. Wlrerq wea there Ono expression hi the

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address of the Hon. Member for Dungarvon, \gr.'
the Court, which could tend to have rouse .the.fietiricsik
the Attorney-General for Ireland. Hon. GentleiMia in. Ms'
House were all willing to make ample allowances for such
ebullitions of feelings, but this House was not like a Court
of Justice. If ever there was a time when everything like
personal feeling should be avoided it was in this case. He
agreed with, the Hon. Member for Cork that from the very
beginning of those trials there was a most unfortunate irrita-
bility shown by the Attorney-General, which he was sure
the Government would be the first to admit. If he ex-
pressed his regret, no gentleman would wish to carry the
matter further ; still that would prove that a high legal func.
tionary was deficient in that temper which was necessary to the
dignified discharge of hisduties. The only vindication which had
been offered on his behalf was that many expressions had been
used which were likely to excite a man of an irritable temper,
but he denied that there was anything in the speeches of the
Right Hon. Member for Dungarvon, or Mr. Fitzgibbon, be-
yond what the interests of their clients called for.
Mr. WYSE explaire'd.
Mr. SHAW, as an old and intimate friend of the Attorney-
General for Ireland, wished to bear testimony to his high
standing in his profession, and his many estimable private qua-
lities. At the same time, he did not at all mean to vindicate
the conduct of the Attorney-General. Still he would say
that he thought it an unjust, ungenerous, and unjustifiable
attack which had been made by the Hon. Member for Bath
upon a man ut his own profession. lie (Mr. Shaw) thought
Mr. Roebuck was not exactly the man best suited for bring-
ing such an accusation as this-(Hear, hear)-for he thought
him one of the most unfit persons to stand up and deliver a
lecture upon this subjecn But what he complained of most
was, that this attack had been made on account of the parti-
cular act cf having sent a challenge, but that the Hon. Mem-
ber had made a general and indiscriminate attack upon the
Attorney-General. Ile (Mr. Shaw) knew the Attorney-
General well, and he could fearlessly appeal to every Member in
the profession as to whether the insinuation of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bath, that he was unfit for the place he holds, was worth
anything. He asked the Hon. and Learned Member fur
Cashel whether all pat ties did not agree that the Attorney-
General was an honour to 4i :profession, and that he had al-
ways conducted himself in t way most creditable to himself?
He was placed in pee; lia t scurnstances. He (Mr. Shaw) was
sorry to refer to the trial trim pending in Ireland, but allusion
had been made to th t Attorney-General's requiring Mr. J.
O'Connell's attendance n Court when he only went into the
library. Now, what 'we 'tee fact ? Why, that Mr. O'Connell
cad gone to that very association which the indictment, under
which he was being tried, had declared tube illegal, and his in-
tention to do so 'etc' been publicly advertised in the newspapers.
-(Cheers from the Tory benches.) this attendance was not
required as a criminal, but lie was allowed to wear his own dress,
and sit amongst the Counsel. Therefore this was a gross mis-
representation. lie (Mr. Shaw) heard men of all political
parties in Ireland agree that under the circumstances of this
trial, the Attorney-General's conduct had reflected the greatest
credit on him.-(Loud laughter and ironical cheers.) He
believed that it was the object of many newspapers, ante of al-
most all his opponents, to make a set against the lion. and
Learned Gentleman, in order that he might be unfitted for the
performance of his duties. He expressed those opinions not as
a partisan ; he had never spoken to the Attorney-General on
the subject, nor had he ever expressed an opinion on the mat-
ter until the present ; but now he felt bound to bear testi-
mony to the general endeavour of the Attorney-General to
discharge his arduous duties not only with propriety but in
good temper.-( Loud laughter.) The matter alluded to by
the lion. Member for Bath, occurred during a temporary ab-
sence of the Judges, and the moment the Court was informed
of the matter, it pronounced the strongest condemnation. The
matter there terminated, and ought not to have been revived.
Dr. STOCK said, as his Right Honourable and Learned
Friend had put a question to him in such a direct manner, he
should say that he thought the Attorney-General had displayed
more temper than either his friends or enemies expected. Ili>
public officer was ever called on to discharge duties of such
importance, and which required the most decided exercise of
judgment and temper-( Hear, hear)-and he stated his per-
fect belief that there were not wanting inducements on the
other side to bring to a test the infirmity of his temper.-
(Ministerial cheers.) lie repeated that the Attorney-General,
taking all the circumstances of his position into consideration,
had acted with much more temper than could be expected from
him -( Laughter.) lie was in habits of personal intimacy
with the Attorney-General for Ireland ; he knew him well,
and a better or more honourable man, or one who better dis-
charged all the relations of private life, never lived.-(Hear. )
He was art honour to his profession-he possessed great legal
acuteness-and he was entitled to and enjoyed the deference
and respect of his profession and of the country.--(Cheers.)
He knew him to be of the most unexceptionable character ;
but his appointment to the situation he held was most unfortu-
nate, because there were persons at the bar who were more tit
to carry out the objects of the present Government than Mr.
Smith. He had, as all men had, Isis defects, but a more
excellent lawyer did not exist.-(Cheers. )
Lord INGESTRIE said it would be most ungenerous in
him if he did not get up and state that, during the time he
was present in the Court of Queen's riench, in Ireland, no
person could have conducted himself with greater propriety
than the Attorney-General did there. Ile would, further, calf
the attention of the liou=e to the fact that attacks were made
upon him. Even Mr. O'Connell himself, in the Association,.
attributed personal motives to him, for he said-" No verdict,.
no Chief Justiceship." As far as he saw, the Attorney..
General conducted himself with great mildness, and a quiet
demeanour, and no person in a similar situation could behave-
with greater moderation titan the Attorney-General did for-
the few days he (Lord Ingestrie) had been in Dublin.
Mr. WALLACE said that the Attorney-General for Ireland_
had great cause to say " save me from my frieeds." From
the Right lion. Baronet downwards, one and all concurred
in giving him the character of one most unfit to till his present.
situation. The House recollected the mode in which he ewe,-
ducted himself with regard to the Arms Bill. The Attorney-
General for England had to do the work of the Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland. The expressions used by his Hon. and..
Learned Friend below him were but the truth, and he de •
served great praise for dealing with the Attorney-General for
Ireland as he did, especially as he knew that the members ()it'
the profession were not fond of attacking each other.-
(Laughter.) The Attorney-General was guilty of an opera
breach of the law, and when the Government said they-
ought not to interfere and dismiss him, he tiegged
to remind them of the conduct pursued towards she.
Liberal magistrates of Ireland who attended repeal meetings,
and they dismissed those magistrates without any sort of
ceremony; but they had nothing to do with three-cornered.
notes. it was undeniable that the Attorney-General pos-
sessed an irritability of temper which unfitted him for hiss
situation. His character as a lawyer, or as a gentleman, webs
equally indifferent to him, but he maintained that a woreis
selection could not be made than that of the Attorney-Genet
al
for Ireland to fill hts situation. 'With regard to what was saidi
on the impropriety of alluding to what was going cn in Ire-4
land, he could not understand why those three paragraphs re-
lating to that country were inserted, if it was not intended to.
muzzle them.-(Hear, hear, and laughter.) It muzzled 0..4
Noble Lord, but it would nut muzzle others, and he was glad(
they had an opportunity of discussing the subject. lie would:
support the motion of the Hon. Member for Rochdale.

NVAI4

BROTHERTON had listened with attention, to this,
present discussion, and he regretted that no person denouncLO
the practice of duelling generally. He was not disposed 'to
reflect on the conduct of the Attorney-General, and perhaps
it were better to wait till he was present himself.—(Hear. )1
He thought the practice of duelling ought to be denounced bye
that House. How could they expect the people could be :vb.-,
gious when a practice so repugnant to the ordinances of religion
asul so opposed to the law, was countenanced by some of then
highest in the land? It was nothing but murder.—(Hear,.
hear.) The conduct of the Attorney-General was denounced:3
but let those who were without stain themselves cast the first:
stone. —(Hear, hear.) He hoped the present debate wool&
not be without its use in putting an end to this practice.
Mr. CUItTEIS said he did not think the Government bad
any right to complain of the subject of Ireland being inttorfueedl
into debate pending the present trials. He had heard it state&
by two Hon. Members for Ireland (one of whom was remark—
able for his moderation), that it was their firm conviction flats
address, as it now stood, would influence the verdict of the jury_
He wished to see a fair and impartial verdict, and he woul t
therefore wish to see all that related to Ireland expunge 4
from it. This was the ground on which he would give his
vote in favour of the amendment. He regretted that the leaden*
of the Opposition had not moved an amendment to the address
which would unite their strength, instead of having it frit—
tered away in two divisions last night, in which he was obliged
to vote against those with whom he usually acted. The At—
torney-General for Ireland had received a severe castigatioa
from the House, but he did not think he ought to be dismissed.
from his office.

Sir W. BARRON said he could not avoid alluding to am
expression which had fallen from the Noble Lord the Secret/1..: s
for Ireland. He said that the Attorney-General for IrrAuni
had conducted himself with temper and moderation duriewttile
unfortunate prosecution, for such it was. He knew the NobLe
Lord would not state anything which he did not believe to bet
the fact, but he had been grossly misinformed on the subject.
Having attentively observed the progress of the trial, he musC
say he never in the course of his experience read or heard
such a gross instance of want of temper, such insulting lar.
guage, and such uncalled-for observations, as were made tAy tee
Attorney-General during the trials, from their comrne•aeement
to their present stage, and he wished a Committ,,,e of tt,
House were appointed to inquire into the fact. B.:
was certain there never was such a gross want • f
temper, discretion, and judgment displayed as during the
whole of these transactions. Let him call to mind -wh: t
occurred at an early stage of the prosecutions. Three of the
solicitors employed by the traversers mad% a solemn idifidaYit
that it was necessary fur the defence to have certain. paper',
and to collect certain evidence, withor,t which the. defence
could not be conducted with fairness or justice to their
The Attorney-General, on his own mere ipse comes
down, and tells the Court that tlitl affidavits of these three re•
spectable gentlemen were mad'', solely for the purposes of delay.
Such a course of conduct as this, so unjust, so unbecoming, and
so insulting, was never before known in that or in any oth t
Court; and he was at last obliged, in the presence of ass
Court, to retract this language, and make an apukegy for it.
Air. SHAW—Are you not speaking of some other person ?
Sir W. BARRON—Mr. Brewster.—( Cheers :arid laughter
They might have their cheer. He was talking of the enti ti
conduct of this case—( Oh, oh. )-.-this was a part. of the whol,
And in opening the case to the Court the Learned Gentlem
used language which had never before been heard in to
court of justice, wits regard to the traversers- He assert. d
to the Court that, ofihis own knowledge, he could prove a fo
midablc conspiracy, thus aggravating the case in every positi.
that he took, and that, too, in language which would not De
tolerated in the Courts of this country, and. which would ne, er
be used by the Learned Attorney-General opposite, as w 41
from a sense of propriety and decorum, as from the knowled,:e
that, by such conduct, he was only injuring his own case. Bat
not only in this had the Attorney-General for Ireland grew too
committed himself, but lie had removed every Roman Catho ic
who was left on the jury list.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") TI A
Learned Gentleman's conduct was before the House, aKt
he had a right to remark upon every part of it. He insult'
every Roman Catholic in that country, by removing elev,a
Roman Catholics as unfit to be on the jury, the only eleluak
Roman Catholics that were upon the panel, and he left no ono
upon it but gentlemen notoriously opposed to the traversers in
politics. Was that justice? was that fairness? They tr,etl
men upon a charge, a political charge, and they took care to
have upon the jury only those who were known. to be salver ass
to them on the very identical point upon which they
were charged. Why, if a Frenchman or a Bel-
gian, a Spaniard, a German, or a Tells, were rue
upon their trial in this country they were allowed
to have six of their own countrymen upon the jury. Ile_17;
lieved that was the number—he was no Yawyer—but LW. k:
every foreigner was entitled, at least, to have a poi-Poes
foreigners on the jury. But here weretheir own count tYmm
to be tried, and none were to be on tie jury save those k uo.ra
to be opposed to them—men filled wit'a prejudices against tl
e
I and whose opinions and sentimentsxer known and recor.
v
Was this fair play? He appealed
to the English people it it
was right or fair to try a man by his enemies,
,and this it 111
country where politics ran sn high as unhappily they di, k
Ireland. But would the ver,'Afct have any effect—would it es ey
any weight ? He said the,t let the verdict be what it might, lie
moral effect of it wolo4 be destroyed, and they might tin ,uk
their Attorney-Gene,tal for it. His conduct had caused in ,r•
alienation between the people of the two countries, had sit.
gendered more animosity, than anything that had occui red
within the 15'4 fifty years. For all this mass of evil they 1 tali to thank ti..eir Attorney-General. They migi
in his office,
overnineut ce, but he told the G "
1 ii
t continue
that in doing so they perpetuated an insult to his eountr h
from knowledge of his own, when he si that for
every e
Ito. Iva