The Sun.
London, England, 1810-05-12 00:00:00

ont to the Speaker. If the House had committed the
Slolicitor by whom that notice was sent, which _they
had an'ue.cinestionable right to do, was it not pro-
bable that another Solicitor would have been ap-
' pointed who would not have sent a notice but would
have brought'an action ? Would the• HoUse have
committed him for that ? 'How could they distin-
guish. whether that- anion' was preferred against
the Speaker in his.public or in his private capacity.
•If they-had asked the SolicitOr, he would probably
have answered, that the interests of his client re-
quired secrecy. Would the House have committed
him on that statement ? If they had done so, he
thought they should have acted rashly. It was irr
the anticipation therefore -of all those difficulties
that the commitment of the Solicitor had not- been
,recornmended. Those who had told him that he
was wrong in advising the commitment of Sir. Fran-
cis' Burdett without foreseeing that he would resist
the warrant; could surely not censure him for not
having advised. the. commitment ,of the'Solicitor
Besides, in that case, the. House .Would have to coin-
mit the Barrister. If one Barrister was committed,
another might .be found; or nothing need be done
by the • parties, but to wait till the. end of the
Session, when they would be at :liberty to pro-
ceed. By any such Commitments therefore, the
House- would only have shewri their resentment
without being able to vindicate their, privileges.
The openness with which he found it necessary
to speak
_on these. subje&S; 'induced, him once
More to lament that the lionoUrable..,Gentlemen
opposite felt such an alienation to an. approach to
their political adversaries,. even on a subjea of such
general interest, that they would not join them 'in
the Committee, in . which it could be so much bet-
ter discussed. With respe& .to the-proposition re-
commended ,by his Hon. Friend .who had imme-
diately preceded him, 'he thought that the House
would-do well to adopt the motion before them in
preference- to it; and adverting to the assertion•of
the 'Noble Lord who had spoken early in the de-
bate,. that this course was novel-in principle, he po-
sitively denied that.,assertion: :That the House did
not always feel themielves called uponto be vindi-
cators of their own authority was established-by nu-
merous precedents. -It was a matter entirely of dis-
cretion, In cases .of moving for a Habeas Corpus,
the Judges , could not issue the-writ, because, until
the-return- was made to it, they could not ascertain
the cause of commitment. ,Invariably, hoWever,
such persons were remanded. If the Solicitor knew
the cause of the commitment of his client, which
he unqueStionably must, he was-subje& to commit-
ment himself for the proceeding. 'There was no
instance, :however, he believed, in which such a
committnent had taken place; but there were many
instances in which it had not takpn place. He
maintained that there was no more reason for cum-
initting the Solicitor in the case`urider discussion,
than there was for committing a Solicitor w,ho had
stied_ out a writ of Habeas Corpus on an individual
Committed to his knowledge for a breach of the
privile,ges of the *Ruse of Commons. In both
case's the House might, if. they chose, -exercise the
privilege oreoentnit went, and in both cases it was
.perfealy in their discussion to absfain, from it. He
congratulxed the. House that on the present tfues-
lion there appeared very little likelihood of any dif-
ference, of opinion. He rejOiced partieularly that on
that part of the subjeel upon which he
.had appre-
lipded ti.e greatest difference, there seemed a ge-
neral aincr:r2rice• of sentiments. He had -feared
that those v..ho were .irni,ressed With 'the necessity
of oarryi%g the privileges of the House with a high
(Arid hove liven inclined to. proceed with ex-
ttrmtrie3, wnich he was glad. to find t buy did not -
prele._

7 .Mr.: PONSOI4BY explain d. He should alvi'ays
.'that the Right Hon. Gentleman, by inducing
the House lu exercist,., their pr ilige of cotrimitnient
in a (aNe It did nut call tot it, had put the
'ouse in an unto, tpt.ate sii nation. He could never
,thittli",tnv Si nation so unfortunate as when a.eonsi-.
ci,-;Ale portion of the people, disapproved of.their

.Mr. W. WYNNE declared, that however uupopu--
ldr the sentiment might be, he should be ashamed
of himself if he hesitated to say, that, in-his opi-
nion, the Flowea•hy committing the Solicitor, would,
bate shewn their determination- to defend their pri-
iileges,by punishing these who infringed them.
Sir S. Itomitt.v, although he had no doubt that
. flie Speaker and the Set jeant ought to-be permitted
to. a;;pear and •plead, yet was, unwilling that the
question should go to a decision.without-stating very
shortly his opinion on some of the doctrines that had
been that•evening advanced.- He should not occupy
h of the attention of the House, as be bad no
'pleasure in stating to any audience opinions different
from • theirs: .Besides, ho did not think that the
duty of a-Member of the House permitted him to
'plead in .the House arguments against .the 'House,
which in the present case might be repealed in ano-
ther place. He should therefore silently acquiesce
in many-points which hebelieved that he could'art,-
swer. He confessed that he did not entertain the
opinion, that the privileges of the House of Cern-
mons could not be :.brought into. a Court of
Law.. He had no doubt whatever of the prriiiege
Of the 'douse to commit; but he apprehended that
ihe.priVileges. of the House of Commons' formed a
part I:slthe law of the land, and as such muse be
recognised in the courts of Law. There was a dis-

tinetion on which he would s.tra few words between
the, cases of the speaker and the Serjeant. He had
understood abroad that the allegation against the
Se7je;mt was, not that.he had executed the warrant
of the House of Commons, but that she had exe
ciited it in an unjustifiable manner. Now what,
ever
_opini9n any one might entertain with.resped
o submitting the privileges of-the House of Com-
mons to a Court of Law, no man could.question,the
right of a Court of Law to try the mode in which
the duty imposed upon their officer.by the House-of
ponnnons in the-exercise of their privileges had
peen executed. • In case, therefore,, of such an
action 'against the Serjeant, be could not conceive
the po4ibility of its being,set aside merely by -the
Entry on the 'record, that he bad acted under the.
authority of the House. lit the doelrine that the
priyilees of 'theHouse of Commons could not be
diseussed in the Courts o' f Law, he could nct Con-
fyir. - It was extremely dangerous to say; that not
any thing' done by either Houses of Parliament in

vindication of its,*privileges could be submitted to
discussion in a Court of Law. He would imsgine
the case. He would suppose - that either House
came to a resolution that any particular individual
should not exercise that .which was a legal right.
Such a case had happened, and at no very distant.
period. The Irish House of Commons, a few years
ago, came to a resolution that any man who claimed
agistment tithes was an enemy to his country ! A
similar case might exist- again, and would
any one contend that it ought not to be sub-
mitted- to a Court of Law ? Besides, there were
cases •of Habeas Corpus, • in which discussions
had taken place in Courts of Law.--Anina-
logy• had been- attempted to tie established be,
tween the cases of commitment by the House of
Commons and commitment by Courts of Law for
contermt; and had been contended, that when
an individual was committed by a Court of Law for
contempt, no other jurisdktion Lad a right to inter-
fere.: There were instances, however, where a
committal for contempt by one Court had been de-
cided by another, as erroneous. One most.import-
ant case was in the reign of Charles- 11. -when Penn
and Mead, two Quakers, were tried at the Old Bai-
ley before Jeffreys, then the Recorder, and acquitted
--Jeffreys committed all the Jury for contempt,*be-
cause they had found a verdiel againit his direction.
The case, however, was brought before Lord Chief
Justice Vaughan in- the Common Pleas, who enter-
fully into the discussion, and held; that thongh .this
was-a committal for contempt, h 6 had a right to en-
ter into the circumstances of the case.; citing-many
instances in support of his opinion, among which
hte recollected that of. Sir Nicholas Bacon, who had
been committed fOr contempt by ~the Court of
Chancery, and subsequentlydischarged by the Court
of King's" Bench, because the precise most of the
contempt had not been stated. He .repeaed, that
in his•Ppinion not any thing,could be more ckngerous
than the , possession
.by the HOuse of Commons of
such a power, *free from the ,cognizance of the
Courts of Law. To the privilegesof the House of
Cominons he was a friend, for the privileges of the
House of Commons were the privileges of the Peo-
ple. They could be legitimately exercised, however,
only for the good of the People, and calamitous in-
deed would be the situation of the House, and pf
the, country; if the period should ever arrive, when
the People should be of opinion, that,those privi-
leges were exeicised, not for their prote&ion, but
for their oppression.

Mr. WINDHAM said, hisflon. Frierid;rising as
he thought to support the privileges of that House,
had laid down a doarince which went to subvert
them. The sentiments,of the Hon. Baronet who
had-caused the snbjed to be' so'mucla agitated, were
such as might well be exiithed to- please his audi-
tors, but he did not expect they would ever have
been countenanced-in that House,'or supported by
his Hon. Friend. In every tomtnunity. there must
be a supreme power from which there could be no
appeal. When .this principle was done away there
must be an end of all human Governments. There
were certain inferior tribunals, over which no other
tribunal bad any controul; but where appeals might
be made from one to another, these appeals could
not, be infinite; they must stop somewhere, as in the
ose of Jeffreys, when an 'appeal was made to ano-
ther Court. 'rite supreme power might 'be im-
properly exercised, but those Gentlemen wild there=
in argued ag,aiest the existence of a: tfibuital in
which supreme po'ser was vested; a,*tied against
the principal
.on which those tribunals -were esta-
blished,. which were known and aekno !edged
throughout . the' country. If existing tribunalS had
arbitrary and discretionary powers not common to
tribunals at large, it did not follow 'hat such poWers
shout i be aholiitted, or 'that they were illegal." It
was useless to 'contend against .the existence of 'su-
preme power, because it might be abuseit without
controul. In every community a confidende must
be reposed on a presumption that • it, Would not he
abused. The House would lose every privilege it
might
,claim it they were submitted to a Court of
Law. He, protested against the doeirine that would
subject them to.such a controul, and contended that
such had never been the practice of the Constitu-
tion. If inconveniencies might arise 'from barring
the Courts of Law from deciding nn the cotiduat
of
,their Officer, he was certain great inconveni-
ences might follOw their allowing a Court of Law
to examine too minutely the condua of the Ser-
jeant at Arms. The result might be that their de-
cision would abrogate and annul the Orcler‘of that
House, and subject them to a Court of Justice. He
wished the House to consider that, and.be properly
guarded in its proceedings. He had been some-
what startled-at the idea of their Officer appearing
in a Court of Law: His Hon. Friend had in some
measure reconciled him to .it, but he 'would only
admit of his goitrg with such a plea as would not
endanger their privileges. He assented_ to no more
than his letting the Court know, that that for which,
he was called upon to answer was the a& oF the
House of Commons, and then the Judges knowing
that, would see a•complete bar interposed, and de-
cline entertaining the aelion.
The ATTORNEY-QERAL .observed,,-that
Han. and Learned Friend opposite could 'not
scribe to.the-dodrine, that the deeisiOn of iheiftousi
of Commogns, in stases" of privilege, ought to be
conclusive in Courts of Law.. He for one could
not be supppoied to be inclined- to deduct from the
rights of 'the-Courts of Law. But the atithoriees
quoted:by the Right Hon. Gentleman' opposite, who
had.spoken so ably on the subject, were perfeelly
satisfaetory in establishing that the'privileges Of 'the
House of Commons could be decided only by them-
selves. After the able detail'of thCSe authorities, he
owned that he was a little astonished to hear the ar-
gtiment of his Hon. and "Learned' Friend. If the
privileges of the House of • Cm-nu-ions were a fit
subjed-of disenssion•in Courts of Law, hoW many
Judges had betrayed their declining any interference
with them:.. This had particularly occurred to him,
persons committed by the House bad been brOught
up by. Habeas Corpus,. Among' the rest-, Lord Chief
Justice Greyliad..state& that.the Court-possessed no
jurisdidion oser the privileges;pf the House t. con),
mons, and that the Couit must gife _eke& to
those, privileges, by remanqinethe person brOught
beidie it to :that custody to **bleb he bad been
committed ihe House of Commons. There
were many other legal authorities to establish

' the d urine that -the House had a right to deckle'
on th, it own privileges, and that decision was
final. His Honourable and Learned Friend ha.l
recommende3•that a different plea should be put in
by the-Sce-jeant and the Speaker to the anion. As
. he understood that the defence was to be entrusted
to his -care (although he wished that some better
qualified person might be appointed), he thought
it, but right to say something of the plea. His Right
Hon. Friend had taken a good view of the condua
of the Court of King's Bench in pleas of abate-
ment. He could not but think that it was the pro-
vince of the Judges to decide on the plea. , He spoke
la the presence of learned persons, very competent
to correct hid), but it appeared to him that, the pro-
per plea would be a plea in Bar ;—t hat was, that the
-person bringing the action could in no place main-
tain it. He apprehended also, that whatever might
appear upon the face of the proceedings of the
House, with respect to their privileges, would be
received by any Court as decisive upon that subjea.
The Learned Gentleman concluded by expressing
himself ready to answer any question that,might be
put to him by the Hon. GentleMio.
Mr: W. SMITH, thqugh against giving unlimited
privilege to the House of Commons, was for abiding
by the precedents adduced, and had no hesitation in
saying, that it was highly necessary that the House
shoull maintain those privileges which. had ''oeen for
ages 'established,' and he had, therefere no objection
to the present motion. •
Lord MILTON was apprehensive that; by, agreeing
to the Resolution, the House would put the privi-
leges out of their own hands.. •
The Resolutions were then put, and carried with-
out a dissenting voice.
Mr. D. GIDDY stated, that he had one more
Resolution to-propose. Although there could. be
no doubt that the privileges of the . Hduse of
COmmons would be perfectly sale in the hands
of the Speaker, who for. so many years bad per-
formed the duties of his high and important office, in
a. Manner the, most honourable to himself,-and the
most satisfaelory to the House and to the country ;
yet it would not be consistent with the respect due
to his dignity, to impose upon. him such a task ; nor
would it be consonant to the usage of the House to
commit it to the execution of a private inividual.
lie therefore moved,
" That the Attorney-General be direded to defers 4 the
speaker and the Serjeant against the said ad:on."'
• This resolution..was also agreed to.
Mr. W. WYNNE asked, whether it was to be
held out by the House to the Public, that any per-
son might commence such a suit as that. recently
underdiscus.sion, without being guilty of a breach
of the privileges of the House ? He instanced an.
analogous case in the House of Lords in the present
reign. On the 28th November,.l76B, . the Lords
were informed that a Mr. East (one of his Majesty's
Justices of the Peace) had been served with a notice
of a&ion for his exertions in suppressing a riot under
the orders of the House. The; parties serving the
notice were ordeted to attend at the Bar -qt .the
House of Lords. When they did attend they. were
committed to the custody of the Usher of ,the Black
Rod, and were not discharged until they had given
Mr. East a release from tip . The Hon;
Gentleman repeated, that- he wished to be informed
whether the Public were to, understand that :the
established pradice of the House on this subje&
Was at an end, and that cycry- man who chose it-was
at liberty to institute a suit against. the Speakerwith
impunity ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
he was not prepared to express any decided opinion
on. the subjeCt.. In all cases of this
.description, the
House, of. course, would exercise their discretion;
and would determine according to circumstances.
Mr. WINDHAM rose, and was proceeding to make
A few observations, when he wasinterrnpted, there
being no question before, the House. •
The Report was ordered to lie on the•tabe.
The House resohed' itself into a Committee of
Supply. .
Mr. CROKER moved, that 1,511,0001. should be
granted for the Ordinaries of the Navy.
Sir C. POL.E made some observations on the id-
ditien to the estimate. If it was possible to reduce
our force from 140,000 to 130,000 men; hg. hoped
those who had been in the service seventeen. or
eighteen years would allowed their discharge. He
wished for the reduction of press7gangs, and that
something might be done to mitigate the hardships
of harbour duty. He concluded, cautioning Mini-
sters against raising the salaries ot.some qt the public
servants, and overlooking others who had equal Or
superior claims to an advance. • .

Mr. R. WARD went over the items of. the esti
mate, explained the cause of the addition' that had,
been. made, and proved it to be necessary: We
ought always to keep our navyready to cope nut
only with the fleets of France and Russia combined,
but with those of the whole world. .
Captain PARKER thought it-would be a very-harsh
measure .of any Government to discharge their old
sailors. He also objected to the reduction of the
impress service. •
Lord CDCHRANE. adverted to the Pension List of
the Navy, and made acomparison hetween.the pen-
sions allowed to the Officers of che-Civil -Depart-
Ment and their. families. The disproportion he con-
tended, was enormous—the Civil Officers haying a
most unfair prefetence. . He next compared the e.x7
pences of the List with the sinecures of,,Lords Ar-
den; Camden, .and BuckingkamShire, and alsO to
the money paid by the public to the Wellesley fa--
and observed, that their sinecures would pay
a large proportion of these expences.. He mentioned
one case, of a person. Whose name still remained
upon the Pension List, though :she was dead. He
alluded to the case of Mrs. Gitehirst, and be was
qUite positive of the fad for she was his grandmo-
ther.

Mr. WELLBSLEY POLE said, that the Noble Lord
had made one of the most extraordinary speeches
he had ever heard on the subjeci of Navy . Esti-
- mates, and he could not but regret that the Noble
Lord should have thought himself warranted in deal!!
ing in such strong charges,-without takingthe trouble,.
in the first instance, to ascertain the fact. .The
Noble Lord had asserted that in looking over the na-
val pension list, it appeared that many pensions had
been granted through Parliqmentary.interest. To
this assertion be begged to. give a most decisive
Fontradiction. Mr. Pole then entered into a lull and

satisfactory explanation upon the subject of prq'
sions, and of the Compassionate 'List. The Ncibles
:Lard had made some ' observations not veil' •
relevant to the subject, nor very consistent with
Candour, upon the places posseised by different •
persons, and had talked in very eXaggerated terms
of; the sinecure places posseSsed by his (Mr.. Pore'al
family, The Noble Lord was grossly misinformed
updn that subjed. The only sinecure place pris'
sessed by any branch of that family was one of 4000;
a year, which was conferred upon -the-Noble Lora
at the head of it. He could not help regretting
that the Noble Lord opposite to him did not consul
his-a4wn natural good sense, and not suffer hiragel
to be guided by the advice of others,. who were per'
petually leading•him astray. There was to be sure
some eccentricity in the Noble Lord's manner, but:
there was a great deal of good BritiShstuff aboutshfirk
and when he confined himielf to speaking upon the
practical part of his profession, he would always u 6
listened to.with the, attention and respect which hi=
talents deserved. But unfortunately instead of obey'
ing the dialates of his own good ' understanding, he
suffered himself sometimes, to be inflamed and
~"
guided by persons who were. perpetually
leading
Noble Lord into the grossest errors.
Mr: CROKER said, if those employed in' harbour
duty were•:not so employed, they must come tiPuv.,
Greenwich Hospital, and other seamen on full P"'
must 'supply their place. Pressgangs had been re'
duced considerably, and were still to be reduced'
That the Noble Lord's grandmother was still :911
the pension 'list was true. When they bad-11)
reason to believe 'a pensioner dead, but by lb,
4-allure of the party to claini.the pension, it was 111 i
common to strike
.the name off the list tinir%
hope of the claimant's return'
was extinct. NY,Ltie
respeet•-to the canvas,' he had to inform the Nuu
Lord, that experiments were now making to a,ceid
r'
tarn whether the.bleached or. the unbleached cot",
be used.with the greatest -advantage. Ti,e No'bie Lon)
hid complained of the seamen b`eing paid 0:11y wbi/t
they cam?, home. If they were paid while abroad is
would be difficult to keep them.
A few words followed from Mr. Whitbread and
Mr. Pole, and me.: Croker explained, that with r 0
pect_to 'the pension of Mrs. Douglas, who had be%
alluded to. in the course of :the debate, her On
knight 'perhaps be of the same nature as several, 40
the decease of, whom, in, case of arrears being u,
on their pensions, these were paid-to their neareP
avlations.

A long conversation ensued, chiefly on the obi;
ject of the intended Docks at NOrthfleet, in whica
Admiral Markham, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Rose, at)
the Chancellor of the Exchequer participated.
The Resolution was then put and agreed to.
;The other Orders of the'Day were then read, au'
the House adjourned at. Three o'clock thi9 w°llY
g.

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. 6911

SOLENT QUIS DICIRE FAT.SUM ALTDLAT ?

L UiVDO V,
sATURDAY, MAY 12, 1810,

We this day received Portuguese and Spanish
pers,the fOrrmer down to the 26th The 501115,
Papers are dated the 21st ult, They bothgie °c'
counts of skirmisheS between_
n-the French and Sr 0:
niards, in which the latter, wisely adopting the Pod;
lieq of desultory wan ire,: had obtalued many
vantages. They state, 'that the French .‘v,'N
sty
carrying on the siege of Astorga, bi,t that their
vancedguard„which•had enie:ed Bornbbi, had
eed
beaten, and had. suffered much by repeated 8"
It is stated ars° that. the French troops, which
on the bridges or the Tagus, had retired bA4'oe'.

Yesterday the Committee appointed by the El°a-
ss.
of 'Commons to search for precedents, in alse°
quence of the actions brought by Sir FRANCIS t;
ot
DETT, against the SPEAKER, and the SerjeOt be
Arms, made their Report,. The privilege of the
House of Commons to .commit; in such,Cases ay tI d,
present, appeared to be founded-. upon an unill°r7
rupted series, of precedents, front the earliest P
riod to which the Journals extend. A motion s'°„'
made by Mr. GIDDY, the Chairman of the Cam'
:1
n's
mittee, that the Speaker and Seijenni be—peril'itte
to plead to the actions, and that the ATTORNEY rI „
• •
NERAL be Ordered to defend the actions ; win"
unanimously agreed to. We. beg to. call the rut'''.
cular attention of our readers to the speecafn-
t
PONSONEY, in which" the most-ConstiiatiOnal Pr``'
eiples were maintained, inT;t he most -tiloquent',llo3,
guage. He was listened to with the most'pTioff;li pfro
attention, and when he -sat down cheers,fM
• • •
all. sides of the Honse cOntinued, for some time, '
.
WII lid
ITEREAD did'not 'speak upon the estibil?
therefore presume that he. concurred in
w4li Mr. foiNsoNBY..,

The outward-bound East India Fleet sailed ,
terdi) from Portsmouth,' .under" convoy of
Pho3nix.