The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-02 00:00:00

T JAE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, FEI3RITARY 2, 1844,

lee eonntry, and he called upon them to reconsider their
course. if the Right Hon. Bat-inlet would only
postpone the address • till Monday, in order to afford
an sipport unit y to the people of knowing what
rt V as that the address contained, he was sure if the Right
Hot i. Baronet would adopt that course, as quick as the post
COO .(1 bring them, the grievances of the people would be
?on sed into that House. Now it was his intention to move
two amendments, he considered the distress tha' existed in the
cut ntry was owing to two causes, one the existence of the
colaws and other prohibitory enactments. which if put
1111!; enil to would remove that distress and suffering, and the
oth
• sr was the great increase of taxation. Her Majesty, in her
c:set ch—or rather her Ministers, in their speech—had been
c ions upon that subject ; but these taxes caused misery to the
eoplee--( Hear.) He regretted to see taxation increased to the
!t!int it had been when it ought to be reduced. Then, again,
!I respect to the income-tax, that impost instead
falling on the wealthy had fallen very heavily on the
Pot Ter classes. He believed the larger portion of the
Pi 4 T people had been obi ie ed to pay that tax,
si the trouble of get'ing it back was such that the money
le :berms considered worth it. The Right Hon Baronet did not
theta, as he did in 1828, that a Finance Committee should
I aPPointed to see Inhere the excesses of the expenditure had
"en place. Ile thought her Majesty ought to have called
14 on I.ser Ministers to look to the distresses of the people.
hat was the use of having peace, when they were obliged to
up a war establishment ? He was anxious that
17 a House should not be led away by a species of trickery.
th?hey wished for an example of the evil effects which must
let ,ow from any breach of faith with the public creditor,
Ito look across the Atlantic.—( Cheers.) He had always
°DI 'used everything like a breach of faith ei.h the public
xe tttor, a:though he saw these on the benches opposite
,_ll
aoehad, in their specohes and their writings, recommended a
r of the public fesitb.—( Cheers and laughter.) F. r every
rend that was withheld from the public creditor, the country
Jest millions.—.(;dear, hear.) They had recently had
Zee "ate* a the effect of uphoitting estblic credit.
at (occurred in Virginia? There had been considerable
aulty in ni.sing funds to meet the interest of the debt.
Lae Governs( s had recommended the House to raise a tax to
Pay the jets..
est due to the public creditor. A small sum,
am° untinsf t about 800,C00 dollars, had been raised for that
trpose
ad be
and • the effect had been that the stocks which
to ?e
en at 45 or 50, rose immediately to 70 and
by aThree-fourths of those funds were held
.habitants of the States who thus found that their capital
;if doubled, and that they were able to exchange it, and to
07. tt for any purposes which they might require. Every
't ate in America which had broken faith with the public ere-
thheayd suffered, would suffer, and ought not to recover
had regained public credit, by paying their creditors.
,asagreed with the Right Hon. Baronet as to the necessity of
~rl--ntaining public credit. That person was the greatest
(Wen' Y to the working classes who should recommend a breach
4'o public faith wish the national creditor, for the working
saes would suffer more severely in consequence, than any
The most effectual way, however, to maintain the pub-
"! credit, was by a reduction in taxation, to lessen the burden
'of the people.. If less were taken from them by the income-
'tax, they wot Ild be more effectually enabled to contribute to the
either taxes o the country. The public credit would have been
snore effectually preserved if, instead of raising five millions by
an income- tax, a reduction had been made in our establish-
:lr. All that was wanted was that they
of
shd `set free labour, the industry and the commerce
cerantry.—Loud cheers. ) They had ships rutting
Wow their harbours for want of employment, with which they
scareds Lave been turt,i4tecl if we had had free trade. Ile
gyeatlY pitied the ship-owners, for the had been the
thei, est monopolists, and they were now paying the penalty of
folly. Much had been saidabout commercial impro.ement.
:cr. the Right Hon. Baronet look to every trade except those
dnected with the woollen and cotton manufacture, and he
'would see nothing but distress. Our condition could not be a
'wealthy one as long as there were millions of
'Money unemployed and capital lying dead. Nothing
'hut
extending the outlets for our exports, could furnish the
; Means of employment. They were told that if they did this it
'would not give increase of employment ; but he dented
that position: Evert those States in which the most
tetringent regulations existed against our commerce, had been
!aompelled to take more articles from us whenever we relaxed
`tut' commercial code. Our commerce with France had been tre-
bled, There was not a bushel of wheat imported which did not
live additional employment to the people. It did not lower the
price of British produced wheat, but it afforded a full meal to
otiose who hail only before had half a one.—( Hear, hear).
ne articles of butter and cheese had not been affected by the
tariff, although a Noble Lord, speaking in the enlightened
:iinty of Buckingham, had complained that the farmers had
-;en ail ruined by the duty having been taken off cheese—( A
laugh)—and when they looked at the article of live cattle—
'Why the whole of the cattle imported in the course of last year
`tcou'd not have made a single breakfast for the working people
'°f this country. They had every right to complain of the
Right Hon. Baronet, because he would not carry out the
'same principles of commercial policy which he had enunciated.
''(Cheers He believed that over-taxation was one of the
evils under which this country was labouring, and he
t"(might that many of those evils had been produced
the conduct of the Right Honourable Baronet.
ith regard to the subject of the revenue, if it were properly
Looked into and fairly stated, it would present a very different
'...lPPearanee to that which it was assumed to have by the
Ministerial party. If they would deduct the amount
:received for the income-tax, the revenue derived from
eorre and the amount received from China,
Instead of speaking in the glowing terms which they did of our
financial situation and our returning prosperity, they would
End their asserted increase sink down into a revenue less
by a million and a half than that of last year. Re-
verting to the condition of the 'working classes,
let
them look at the reduced rate of wages,
end they would be compelled to say that they were in any
INbut a gate of comfort. When the time arrived at
'Government
the Right Non. Baronet at the head of the
`eovernment would propose a continuation of the income-
. be he would beg them to bear in mind that there would
...se no occasion for it, no necessity whatever for
-it! further infliction, if they would only do away with the
ttrarnaaels of industry, and give to capital its fair and legiti-
mate expansion. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cardwell) in'
:seconding the address to the Crown, had said much in
:praise of the home market, holding it up as the best,
if not the only one for this country. Why, for his
(Mr. Hume's) part he could see no difference between the
tome and the foreign. When a man could sell his articles
better at home he would sell them at home, and if he could
.find a readier market or a better price abroad he would sell
;abroad.— (Hear. ) Here people were constantly protesting
Againit foreign markets, and holding up home mar-
kets as the only good for the country, and what was
our actual condition? Take the agricultural parishes. Were
they not now burthened by persons thrown upon them for relief,
thrown back from manufactures, which were rendered
Idle and unproductive by the very system which
Tie (Mr. Hume) complained of, but of which lion. Gentle-
men opposite desired the continuance. These poor people,
thus thrown back upon the agricultural parishes, were so
thrown; by their own narrow policy and unjust laws. Let
them give employment to the people, awl they would very soon
tad all their difficulties at an end. Their disasters were not
'limited to one class of the people—the agriculturists were suf-
fering the same as the manufacturers—they were both to be
• 'Pitied, and ought to be rellev.el. In order that these matters
'night in a proper way be brought under the attention of the
ho should move certain paragraphs to be added, by
ay of amendment, to the eleventh p iragraph in the proposed
et..tes (The Hon. Gentleman then read his a nendment,
ethll,l,e,", was to the effect that the industry oi the country was
by laws of repression which ought at once to be re-
•;„;''''eu, and the principle of free trade fully acted upon—that
°floPolies should no longer be permitted—and that her Ma-
having announced the prospect of continued peace, very
, tonsieerible reductions might and ought to be made in the
Naval and military services, and the various overgrown esta-
- ishments of the country.) The force now in Ireland was
blarger than that of 1792. It was a question of importance both
4t9 Ireland and• England whether such a force should be con-
tinued, Why was it maintained? Because they would not
au justice. When the rton. Member for Cork introduced the
Z"ti"ja of repeal in that House, he opposed him, believing
at repeal would be injurious to the best interests of both
entries, But they must now make their selection between
two courses ; they must either remove the well-Sonneed coin-
Plaints of the Irish people, or they must let them have repeal.
,(Hear, hear.) If he believed tha' justice would nut be done
0 Ireland by the British Parliament he would himself become
repealer.—(Hear, hear.) What was the feeling of
Irishmen themselves in reference to their present
He had in his hand a copy of -a petition
they
to be presented to that House, not by the riff-raff, who
were told- were•the only supporters of Mr. O'Connell and
2.4, 'but at a meeting at which the Duke of Leinster pre-
(Thed Hon. Member then read the petition, which de-
5-`4hed the state of Ireland as one of deep-seated and wide-
?cad discontent, and stated that the petitioners considered
at until the causes of complaint were removed, peace could
nut be secured on a lasting tooting). He thought the Right
...11?e• 'Baronet (Sir James Graham) and the Noble Lord his
.
Irleague, might have -learned something from their experience
1 1834, when, as• Members of the Government of that day,
they
brought iu a Coercion Bill for Ireland. What was the
Zbult of that measure? Why, it was a perfect failure.
f when, subsequently, injustice ceased, when a desire was mani-
cited to remove all causes of complaint, Ireland immediately
res Ponded to the new feeling ; and at one time the army was
reduced from 20,000 to 8,500, and troops were sent over to
"isist in maintaining the peace in Yorkshire. What had oc-
curred since ? They had refused justice to the nation,
after
an pledging themselves to remove all • grievances,
d
,„„ t e country was deluged with a naval and
military force w hich was a disgrace to any Ministry in a time
• of Peace. 'The Noble Lord, who had proposed the address,
said that he did not wish to raise any topics of dispute. Why,
iress they stated what they were prepared to do, the Mi-
rY Were shirking their duty.—( Hear, hear.) They wanted
the Moral
Moral courage to bring the subject fairly before the House,
• and they did not redeem the pledge which they had given, to
(p}:opose all measures which might be necessary for the welfare
toe country.
r. S. CRAWFORD said he wished to move an amend-
ment, to that part of the address which referred to the esti-
mates. He wished to add to the paragraph the following
Wo •
rds •--" To assure her Majesty that her faithful Commons
will be always desirous to vote such supplies as may be found
Just and necessary fur 'the public service, but that under the
circumstances of the country we shall deem it our first
most important duty to inquire into the various grievances
cj!Teplained of by her people. and to devise such measures as shall
`l7 most effectual for the removal of alljust causes otcomplaint."
` was their duty to inform her Majesty of the causes of the
Z°fllltplaints of the people. That House was the proper organ
euturnunication between the people and the Crown. They
Pi"oseued no other, and it was therefore their duty to represent
I,°hier Majesty what the wants and wishes of the people were.
to
eePeoPle had at various times represented those grievances
tuat House, but their complaints were not listened to, and
B`...''eY therefore believed that they were not fully or fairly repre-
tito o, her ted in that House. By representing their grievances to the
Majesty might, if she so thought fit, desire her
• of tl:tera to inquire into their grievances. They complained
great accumulation of property whi:e the destitution of the
body of the people was every day increasing. They corn-
- less, e that the means of living of the working classes were
icu ?ed, and that while the taxes on food were continued they
lawllutd_o give relief through the administration of the poor-
He would not at that time enter Into the subject of the
Or-law, r I though he had strong opinions upon the subject.
became
the grievances of the people were not inquired into, it
their duty as Members of that House to Take all fair and
1.4501141 e means to force their consideration upon the House,
Rnd If possible to obtain redress fur them. It was to be
rebgarettedt Throne,h'.at. references were not made in the speech from
to snake but that not being done, it was their dwy
it - athose references in the address. He maintained that
p omits of the peopdluet,y
I s °1 their •
stability to inform the Crown of all the com-
the and it was the best means of securing
when there.. of the Crown. It was with that view he brought
--braard
as amendment
nothing ,
nfeeling
speech
cabsolutelybut
accounts
ro thats
perity
. whoa
ninnit , great distress pervaded the great mass of the corn-
), so severe that the population could not be afflicted with
sne th
and at the same time subordinate to the law, the Crown
eiem T 9 beinformed of the real state of the country. He had re-
'rnup,tr
instructionsthe , from his constituents at Rochdale to adopt
es which he now proposed. Of course he meant no
that intaiat'a'-' but it, tht-extJl, it rlf.tiL to give
Belltatiies
of tiou whith tney ought to receive trom the rep
resift the people. He should not press on-the cbnside-
uo the R9use any arguments on the subject, further than

to move that the amendment be added to the 10th paragraph in
the address.

'The address, which was an echo of the speech, and the
amendiaents, hiving been put by the Speaker, and no Member
rising to address the House, strangers were ordered to with-
draw, when
Mr. WARBURTON rose to address the House. He did
so because he thought that any Hon. Member who intended to
vote should state his reasons for doirg so. If the Hon. Mem-
ber who had moved the amendment—he alluded to the Hon.
Member for Rochdale—meant by that amendment to stop the
supplies until the grievances of the people were redressed, lie
could assure him that that was not the vote he was hicined to
give. Formerly, when the Crown ventured to commit Mein-
hers to the Tower, to stop the supplies was a justifiable pro-
ceeding. They knew one another well ; they knew that civil
war was inevitable, and that the House of Commons was fully
prepared to support the cause of the people. In those times
the evils of stoeping the supplies were not of the extent which
such a proceeding would now entail on the Crown. Colonies
at that time this country had none ; but if they stopped the
supplies now they would throw all the foreign establishment
of the country into confusion. Formerly the Crown had va-
rious revenues by which it was supported, but now the reve-
nues of the Crown were little or nothing. At that time the
stopping of the supplies was just ; but it would not be so now.
He thought with the Hon. Member for Montrose that the
estimates were capable of large reduction, and that in
addition to that reduction a larger deduction might be made
in the naval and military service of the country. A con-
siderable alteration might be made in the collection of the
revenue. When he came into the House he had no intention
of addressing it, but as his vote might be liable to misrepresen-
tation if he gave it for the motion cf the Hon. Member for
Rochdale, he thought it right to say thus much, and with this
explanation he should vote for the Hon. Member's motion.
Mr. WALLACE had not, when he entered the House, en-
tertained any intention of addressing them that evening, but
he felt bound to offer an explanation of the vote which he in-
tended to give in favour of the amendment which had been
proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale. He
agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for Kendal, as to
what had been the former practice of the House, but to such
a condition had the people now been brought, that the House
must proceed a little faster and a little further than they had
hitherto clone, .or they would be brought to a stand still.—
( A laugh). This was not a time to be fastidious, and he
would support the Hon. Member for Rochdale in his attempts
to stop the .supplies whenever he might be of opinion that
circumstances might require it.—( A laugh). Hon. Members
might laugh, but perhaps they might have an opportunity of
judging on the subject before the cession was over.—(Re-
newed laughter). He did not say when he would do it. He
would not say whether he should do it on the first occasion that
the supplies were proposed, or not, but whenever he should see
occasion he would do so most assuredly. He supported the
amendment of the Hon. Member for Rochdale.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would have been satisfied with
giving a silent vote against the amendment of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Rochdale, had it not been for the speech of the Hon.
Member for Kendal, and for that of the Hen. Member who had
just sat down. After that speech, however, lie thought he
might as well take the opportunity of delivering his sentiments,
not only on the motion now before the House, but on the
eeneral address, which had been so ably moved and seconded
by the Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—
( Hear, hear). With respect to the motion of the Hon.
Member for eochdale, if the Hon. Gentleman meant to say
that the House of Commons ought to have the power to inquire
into and to redress grievances, why, if the majority of that
House were persuaded that it was fit to inquire into certain
matters, and thought that certain remedies were necessary, he
knew of nothing in the address which could prevent such a ma-
jority from engaging in such inquiries, or from adopting such
measures ; and the insertion of those words proposed to be in-
serted by the Hon. Gentleman would be totally unnecessary.—
( Cheers). But if it meant that it was intended that a minerity
of that House should stop the proceedings of the majority
should stop the necessary supplies—necessary, not for the pur-
poses of the Crown, but for the maintenance of the honour and
safety of the country—if the meaning was, that a minority
would stop the supplies until opinions which were not those
of the majority should be forced upon them by obstruction and
delay—he would at once say that to steps of that kind he would
`never give his sanction, and that he would never give any vote
which should tend to that purpoie.—( Loud cheers). He thought
that in the first ease there was no need to introduce the words
proposed, which were merely superfluous; and in the second case,
he was glad to embrace the earliest opportunity to express his
dissent from projects which he had seen had been broached
elsewhere, of forcing the opinions of a minority, by means of
obstruction and delay upon a majority of that deliberative
House of Parliament.—(Cheers.) With respect to the speech
from the throne, and to the address itself, he was glad to find that
the topics touched upon were treated in such a manner as to
meet with his concurrence, so far as his vote on the address was
concerned.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Montrose had
said that it would be the better course, as there were so many
topics touched, that the House should have time to deliberate,
so as to form an opinion upon each topi'. According to the
method which Lad in former times been adopted with regard
to the speech of the Sovereign, it might, perhaps, have been
advisable to adopt the plan proposed by the Hon. Member for
Montrose ; but according to the method which had been
adopted of late years, and which, perhaps, was more adapted to
our own times, it had been more usual, both in the speech and
the address, to treat the various topics touched upon in such a
manner as not to oblige the House to come to any opinion on
matters of doubt and controversy—not to call upon the House
to express any decided opinion except upon questions which
had been over and over again discussed, on which Members
were tolerably agreed, such, for instance, as the maintenance
of the legislative union with Ireland.--(Cheers.) On other topics
it had of late years been usual to thank the Crown for the com-
munication which had been made, and to reserve those other
topics for separate discussion or separate motions.—(Cheers.)
With respect to the annexation of Sinde for instance, if he
had been called upon to thank her Majesty for having under-
taken a military aggression against Sinde, he must say he
should. be anxious to pause and inquire before expressing an
opinion on the subject, but the address had been very properly
framed, and it only called upon the House to thank her Ma-
jesty for the information she had been pleased to communicate
to them, and for the promise of further papers and information.
The Hon. Member for Montrose had complained that there
had been twenty-three different topics introduced into the
address, but while these topics were treated in this manner, he
apprehended that if there had been 53 instead of 23 different
topics introduced into the address, the House would have
very little difficulty in paying the compliment to the Crown of
agreeing to the address without a division. There was one
topic which had been treated of in the speech, not, however,
in such a manner as to preclude him from voting in favour of
the address, but en which he thought it necessary so say a
few words. He meant the state and condition of Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) He agreed that while the proceedings to
which allusion had been made were pending before the judicial
tribunals in Ireland, it would be impossible with a due regard
to the proceedings of the Courts of Justice to discuss topics
which involved the conduct of persons who had to defend
themselves before those Courts. It was therefore
impossible at present to discuss those questions fully.
But he wished now to be most decided and pointed in precluding
himself from any supposition that he gave his approbation to
the conduct which had been pursued by the Government —to
their most unfot tunate proceedings—onto the measures which
the Crown w.s now pursuing or proposed to pursue with refer-
ence to the calamities which now afflicted Ireland. With the
few word: he had thus uttered he quitted that subject. A
friend behind him had just reminded him that he liz.d given
notice of his intention, at an early day, to bring the whole state
of Ireland under the consideration of the House. and he fully
intended to du so, subject, however, to the circumstance that
by the time he had fix .'d fer his moti, n, the trials now pending
would be brought to a close.—(Hear, hear.) If this were
not the case—it at the time fixed the trials were still pending
—then he shoeld venture to oak the House to give him
the preference of the earliest day after their con-
cluson.—( Hear, hear.) There were several topics treated
on in the speech, in which he was most happy to express his
concurrence. He was very glad to find that with re-pest to
China a commercial treaty had been made between the two
countries likely to be advantageous to both, and that the
Chme:e Government :and our own had both been of the same
oninion, that the advantages we had obtained for ourselves
should be extended to all other nations. H. quite agreed in
the sentiment expressed by the Hon. Member for Montrose
(Mr. Hume) that conduct like this was becoming such a
great nee ion as England, evincing as it did a conciliatory and
noble feeling towards other nations, and a continued and un-
abated confidence in our own resource, and enterprise.—( Hear,
hear.) He was glad also to find that after the panic which
had been expressed at the exceeding might and power of the
Emperor of China—(Loud laughter)—that the dread which
formerly pervaded those now on the other side of the
House at the almost irresistible strength of three
hundred millions, had somewhat abated—(Loud laughter)—
and that it was now with them matter of congratulation that
we had not submitted to the ignominy—( Hear, hear)—of
having British subjects confined and threatened to be put to
death if they did not agree to certain peremptory terms. We
had vindicated British honour ; and so far from the result
being as calamitous as they it was predicted it would be, our
just demands had been enforced by the naval and military skill
of the commanders and forces, and by the diplomatic skill of
Sir H. Pottinger, acting under the directions of his Noble
Friend the Member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) ; and we
had obtained terms which, so far from being dishonourable,
gave hopes of advantages greater than even they had a right to
expect.—(Cheers). The speech alluded to the good under-
standing which we now enjoyed with France, and to the pacific
relations which existed between us and the principal Powers
of Europe. He most unfeignedly rejoiced at these intima-
tions, and trusted that our policy would continue to insure that
good understanding. He (Lord John Russell) was one who
had been frequently taunted on the subject of the French
alliance—with being too fond of that alliance, in contempt of
other alliances with the more despotic Powers of Europe.
It was imputed to them that, after. the alliance
had lasted a considerable time, they were the cause
of breaking that alliance and good understanding.
He was happy to find, by some declarations recently'
made in an Assembly of another country, by persons of autho-
rity—by the late Prime Minister of France and the present
Minister of France—that if there had been any decline in the
intimacy and good understanding, that such was not owing to
any act on their parts, but because France, for various rea-
sons, and from various motives, began to look to other ideas
and other feelings, which, as he thought, she ought never to
have done, and then the good understanding between them would
never have beets impaired. With regard to the treaty of July,
1841, he was most happy to find, from the Minister of Foreign
Affairs, that France had now reverted to her ancient policy,
thereby signifying that, for a time, there had been a depar-
ture from it. That ancient policy had been to maintain the
integrity of Turkey by the protection and assistance, not of
one or of another, but of all, the great Powers. In that
spirit they had acted, and in that spirit he thought France
ought likewise to have acted. But, unhappily, she had wan-
dered from her usual track, and turned to worship some Egyp-
tian idol—(A laugh )—that for a time had charmed her. But
glad was be to find that she had deserted that new track, and
returned once more to her ancient and her true policy.
Glad should he ever be that our good under-
standing was renewed with that great country, which he
looked upon as one of the most intelligent and power.
ful in Europe, distinguished alike in letters, arts, and arms.
Other parts of the speech turned upon the present state of our
industrious population. Ile was happy to hear from the Hon.
Gentleman who had seconded the address, that there were great
signs of improvement in the manufacturing districts. He had
no doubt that although there had been exaggeration in some
quarters, much real and solid improvement had taken place.
If they came to inquire into the causes of that improvement
they would no doubt find that one of the greatest causes was
the abundance of the harvest of last year and the year before.
He was making some inquiries the other day with respect to
the price paid for food by some poor families. He found that
in one family there was this year a saving of one shilling a week
for the consumption of bread. If they considered the number
of families who must be in the same condition, it seemed not
improbable that some millions had been saved in food, to be
devoted to the purchase of clothing and other things of which
the poor stood in need. It was obvious, therefore, that the
bounty of Providence had much to do with the improvement to
which reference had been made.—(Hear.) This was quite
independent of any policy which might be adopted with respect
hyear
doubted
hardlywhe
th
whether,
iif
quotedthey
it
no
favour. r Tohe ea
particularneyxperi
had a law prohibitine the import of corn, the effect would
have bc-i) vcry ctitf,r^nt. , t!, Mereher
ence of
law th e
; lastfcir
for
Montrose had tpi?ken on that subject, lie would 's metre to
Rightsay a few words as' to the disadvantageous position of the
lauded interest and the farmers as to the policy of the

Hon Baronet. There were many schemes bearing upon
this subject. One was the old scheme of protection for all
articles of British industry. That policy still had numerous
advocates. Another opinion was the direct reverse of that, that.
there ought to be no protecting hes at all, that there should
be no taxes except for the sake of revenue, and that they should
beware, in improing taxes for the sake of revenue, that they I
did not do anything by which the price of any article of
domestic industry would be enhanced. There was a third
opinion, which was the opin'un held by the Right Hen.
Gentleman, and very nearly that held by himself ; that although
the first opinion was totally erroneous, and although the second
was absolutely true, yet, in the condition of this country,
having to raise the interest of a debt of 800 millions—
}evine', also, to appoint numerous establishments—and having,
for these purposes, laid on many taxes at various times, and
of various kinds, some pressing on one class of industry, and
some on another—in making the change from what was erro-
neous to what was true, they should make it with great caution,
and they should rather look to having a fair competition, with
some advantage to their own consumers, who had been,
hitherto, unduly favoured, than go at once into a system of total
and entire freedom. Now this last principle was, he conceived,
that upon which the Right Hon. Baronet had founded his tariff
two years ago. But the fault of the corn-law was, that it did
not carry the principle far enough. The corn-law, if it were
good for anything, was founded on the principle of protection
to British iudustry. All those who now defended the corn-law
defended it upon that ground. It was a law which was left alone ;
it was a law which was repudiated by their policy with respect to all
other articles; and it was a law which could not be defended,
except upon a theory which they themselves (the Ministry)
said was indefensible.—( Hear, hear.) Now that appeared to
him to be placing the whole landed interest at a disadvantage.
If they said. " Let all classes of British industry be protected,
for that is the true principle," they might tie up the corn-laws
in a bag with the rest of the laws, and they would then have
strength to resist any inroads which it might be attempted to
make. On the other hand, they might .defend making corn a
source of revenue. But whilst, as regarded other articles,
they had adopted a moderate duty, as regarded that article in
which the majority, both in the House of Lords and in the
House of Commons were deeply interested, they had a duty of
40 per c tit., that duty shifting and changing in a way which
every commercial man declared to be irreconcilable with sound
principle. When, therefore, gentlemen attending agricultural
meetings expressed a hope that the Right Hon. Baronet
would come forward and declare that the corn-law was
binding in all perpetuity, he did think that they made the
most extravarrant request that ever he heard.—( Hear, hear.)
The Right Hot:. Baronet told them last year that he. did not
mean to alter the corn-law that session ; but that as regarded
the future he must be guided by the condition of the country,
and the probable effect of any new commercial law. He
thought that was the only answer which the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet could fairly be expected to give ; but he would be much
surprised if he now found him saying, " I am so enamoured of
my law, that I am determined to stand by it."—( Hear, hear. )
He spoke thus much with regard to the subject introduced by
the Hon. Member for Montrose He did not know anything
more to add, than that he gave his concurrence to the address.
He did not want any addition made to it of the kind alluded to
by the Hon. Member for Montrose, and he would give his de-
chled negative to the amendment now proposed.--( Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said that, before adverting to the motion of
the Hon. Member for Rochdale, or the observations of the Noble
Lord, he was sure the House would excuse him for expressing
the satisfaction with which he heard the speech of his Noble
Friend who proposed, and the speech of his Hon. Friend who
seconded, the address.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
for elontrose, who was their political opponent, stated distinctly
that he never heard an address moved and seconded with
greater judgment or with more ability than on the present
occasion.—( Hear, bear.) He was sure the ability they mani-
fested, combined with the sincere and unaffected diffidence
exhibited on their own parts, gained for them the favourable
opinion of the House, and he hoped that the favourable opinion
of the House would induce them to overcome that feeling of
distrust and diifidence, and to apply their abilities to the service
of the country.—( Hear, hear.) It was his duty to state his
decided opinion upon the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Rochdale. He apprehended that motion was intended as the
foundation of measures to be adopted for the purpose of stopping
the supplies. If he concurred with the Hon. Gentleman in
entertaining the opinion he entertained with regard to the
advantage of introducing more of the democratic prin-
ciple into the Constitution, he should be equally energetic
in deprecating the course indicated by him.—( Hear, hear.)
He could conceive nothing more injurious to the popular prin-
ciple of the Constitution than the abuse of the privilege which
a minority of that House possessed. The power of adjourn-
ment was one which it might lie well to act upon on certain occa-
sions, hut it was given under the greatest responsibility, and
unless used with great caution by Hon. Gentlemen they would
strenuous
uwoeurse
advocates.
--(
only injure the popular principle and those interests of which
) boundrrhe Hon.to
Gentleman
Chehewerass.suppose—sad
stop the supplies till the people obtained a redress of grievances.
But what various opinions were there with regard to those
grievances, and the mode of redressing them? and if the Hon.
Gentleman, and those who acted with him were to form the
Government of the country, and possessed a great majority,
they would be setting an example which might he used against
themselves, and a p:ivilege, intended for other purposes, would
be used to obstruct the the public business.—(Laughter.) The
privileges of a minority were important as a protection against
an oppressive majority, but he had seen no case in which a mi-
nority would be justified in resorting to it. But, above all, that
great instrument which the House possessed of stopping the sup-
plies was one which it was of the utmost interest to them should
remain intact, and one which should not be inconsiderately and
unjustifiably used, bat reserved for some great and important
occasion.—( Cheers.) It was not to be resorted to because a
small minority differed from a great majority as to what was
right. He had seen many occasions in which, at the com-
mencement of a session, the Hon. Gentleman, and those who
sat on his left, came forward with strong declarations as to their
intentions, which in the course of the session they saw reason
to alter ; and he had- that confidence in the good sense and
sound judgment of the Hon. Gentlemen which induced him to
call upon them to reflect, and to consider whether, being the
guardians of 'this great popular instrument by which popular
privileges, interests, and rights, might have to be defended,
they ought to resort to it on trifling and unimportant occasions.
—( Cheers). With regard to the speech of the Hon. Member
for Montrose, he agreed with the Noble Lord that it was much
better to abstain from introducing anything into the speech
from the Throne which might lead to a division, and fur this
reason, that if it were otherwise, the Government would possess a
great advantage. They knew the entire ef the speech, and
if they wished to carry any partieular paragraph in the address,
they might by a large majority do so by getting pledges of
opinions from some parties and by issuing summonses fur their
friends to attend. He thought, therefore, that it was better
if possible to avoid anything that would lead to a division.
The Hon. Gentleman (the Member for Montrose) had said
that it was impossible fur them to give the consideration worthy
of the House of Commons to the 23 p • aragraphs of the
address in a few hours. He said that they should at least have
24 hours ; but he (Sir R. Peel) very much doubted whether
the important and various subjects alluded to in the
address could be satisfactorily decided even in that time.
The Hon. Gentleman did not show his usual modesty and dis-
trust in his own opinion, for notwithstanding the shortness of
the time he came prepared with three or four amendments,
and he called upon the House not to lose a moment in pledge
ing themselves to them.—( Laughter.) He thought that it
was for the public interest that they should not raise a sepa-
rate discussion on all the matters introduced in the speech.
He was of opinion that the present practice was far preferable
to the ancient practice of reading it at the Council the day
before. He was glad to hear that the general tenor of the
speech met with the approbation of the Noble Lord.
With regard to Ireland, the satisfaction with which he
heard that approbation of the Noble Lord was not
much lessened by the small taunts with which he indulged
in the course of his speech. With regard to France, the No-
ble Lord, in his own vindication, referred to a period when
there existed a difference of sentiment and action between this
country and France. He would not refer now to the causes
which produced those differences, but he
contemplated,
and
he believed the House concurred with him in contemplating,
with great satisfaction the re-establisment of better feelings
between both countries—(Cheers)--and he thought it was '
infinitely better not to disturb that feeling by any refer-
ence to former times till a period arose when they would
have an oppportunity of discussing the subject. The
discussing the amount of blame to which each party might be
liable, would be likely only to revive animosity, which could
effect no good purpose; but he saw with satisfaction that the
House was almost unanimous in expressing their satisfaction at
the re-establishment of better feelings between both countries,
upon which the interests of peace and civilisation so much
depended.—(Cheers.) When in Opposition he never con-'
cealed his sentiments as to the policy of having a good under-
standing with France, and it was better that he should explain
what he meant by a good understanding.—( Hear, hear.) He
did not mean any secret engagement which might give offence
to others. That understanding ought to be patent and open.
They sought not to interfere with the prerogatives or rights of
others. —( Hear, hear.) They coveted to invasion of terri-
tory. They desired not to diminish the just influence of
others. They wished not to propagate opinions with regard to
the systems of other countries.—(Hear, hear.) Their ob-

ject was not to weaken the affections between the people and the
Sovereign—( Hear, hear)—but the time was come when they
were to ask, whether the interests of those countries were op-
posed to each other—whether there was any necessity for their
fomenting party feelings?—(Cheers.) If there was no
obstacle to a good understanding existing between
the two countries, it was for the interests of hu-
manity and civilisation that that good understanding
should become established.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Did
England covet any of the possessions of France, or France
those of England? Did the: desire any extension of territory
at the expense of each other ? Were their institutions op-
posed ? They had each a representative Government, and
they had each responsible Alinisters. On the part of this
country he would say at once that he was perfectly certain that
a good understanding could not be cordially or permanently,
maintained at the expense to either country of any con-
cession of any point of honour, or any compromise of prin•
ciple.—( Hear, and cheers.) It was virtually necessary for a
cordial and permanent understanding between the two countries
that it should be known there were no secret
.engagements or
special contracts with which any other country could find fault.
On the part of England, he could say that no concessions were
made by France, or the French Government. There was no
compromise, no concession of any right, or of any kind, in any
particular whatever; but, from the position of both countries,
standing as they did, at the western extremity of Europe, and
almost similarly situated with regard to that great quarter of the
globe on the other side of the Atlantic, and governed by similar
institutions, there was nothing to prevent a friendly under-
standing between both countries. But if there was to be in every
country in the world, a French party and an English party,
he could only say that England and France would be the curses
of the world. There would be no advantages in constitutional
institutions. He had read that very day a letter from the re-
presentative of that country in Athens, that able and distin-
guished individual, Sir E. Lyons, which proved that a good
understanding should exist between France and England. It
was by the understanding which subsisted between them that
Greece now possessed a limited monarchy with all its preroga-
tives. The letter to ,which he referred was dated on the
10th of January last, and he rejoiced to know that M.
Piscatory, the Minister of France, decidedly approved
of what had been done by both Governments. The
representatives of one class of opinions in that House—the
representatives, if he might presume to say so, of extreme po-
pular opinions, and the Noble Lord opposite, the head of a
great party in that House, declared their concurrence in the
sentiment he ventured to express. The great body of the
people of this country had no wish to refer to past animosities,
and those national antipathies, which ought to be buried in
oblivion. They admitted the glary of France—that it was
inferior in military gory to no country in the world—that it
obtained that reputation in war by the skill of its great com-
manders, and the national valour of its men ; but he hoped
that France herself—and her great and powerful—would not
think it necessary to stir up hostile feelings for the purpose of
securing to her a reputation of which she could not stand in
need.—(Cheers.) He hoped that this general concurrence
of the House of Commons as to the value of having friendly
relations subsisting between both countries would prove to
France that this was also the honest opinion of
the people of England.--(" Hear, hear," and cheers.)
NobleeWi
ai r
Lred ienspohride. t r
i‘t o
Tbihjlrelandee ,
syp,i3n i he
sopnewould i
se
speech
hf
th the Government
regarding mi
tat t e
tihe l
at c
ohuand exampletrb ye. onf theTd he
e..
wottlti bs- muntatn,l, and tho:p wl,o violated it would he
, tried before the legally coustitutt a tribunals of the country.
It was impossible to refer to the subject of the present legal
proceedings, without, in some manner or other, prejudicing

' the parties who were the subject of it. The Noble Lord fixed
a particular day for his motion regarding Ireland, anticipating
that the trials would have then concluded. On
that occasion the political state of Ireland would
be brought under the consideration of the House, end
he would, therefore, abstain altogether from reference either
to the particular subject of the trials, or to the events neces-
sarily and immediately connected with them. The only other
subject of very great importance was the subject of the corn-
laws. The Hon. Gentleman stated that in 1840 he (Sir R.
Peel) had complained that the Government had not brought
under consideration the important question of the corn•
laws in the speech from the throne. He remembered havin;
made these'observations, and considering the magnitude of the
subject, and the complicated interests involved in them, he
thought it was the duty of the Government, as they had made
up their minds regarding the question of the corn-laws,
to intimate their intentions through the speech from
the throne.—( Hear.) The Ilonourable Gentleman said
that as the subject of the corn-laws was not mentioned
in the speech from the throne, he apprehended that they did
not mean to alter the corn. laws.—(Load cheers from the
Ministerial side of the House. Amongst which the vehemence
of Colonel Sibthorp's cheer was distinctly audible, and excited
laughter from the Opposition.) If the Government had it in
contemplation to submit to the House a proposition for altering
the system of corn-laws, he would have thought it his duty to
mention it in the speech from the throne. The Noble Lord
said be thought the agricultural interest, which he sometimes
defended—(Laughter)—had a right to complain of the course
the Government were pursuing. The Noble Lord said there
were three cliffs rent opinions regarding the corn-laws.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I said with respect to commer-
cial policy.
Sir R. PEEL—One of those opinions was, that it was de-
sirable to protect articles of foreign produce--that the present
protection was not sufficient—that they ought to be regardless
of the imports from foreign countries, but. that the true policy
was the protection of native industry. Another opinion was
the total and immediate abolition of all duties—a protection
which merely existed as the means of raising the revenue should
be incidental. A third opinion war—and the Noble Lord said
that he thought he had the honour of concurring with him (Sir
R. Peel) as to the general principle, namely, that although it
was true in a new state of society there should not be protec-
tion to native industry, yet in a country having such vast into.
rests, burdened with so large an amount of taxation, it
would be dangerous at once to apply the abstract principle
of free trade, as they would thereby incur the risk of disturb-
ing capital and injuring vested interests by the removal of that
protection. He thought it would be wrong to apply to this
country the principles that might be abstractedly right, and he
thought such application would produce confusion and distrac-
tion.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) The
Noble Lord said the difference between them lay in the fixed
duty and the fluctuating scale. He ( Sir Robert Peel) re-
tained his own opinions, but he agreed so far in principle
with the Noble Lord regarding its application.—(Hear,
hear, and cheers.) The Noble Lord proposed protection by a
fixed duty; he (Sir R. Peel) thought it was better secured
by a sliding scale. The Noble Lead said that the Members
of that House and of the other House of Parliament had Sub-
jected themselves to an imputation by maintaining protection ;
but would they not, if a fixed duty were established, be also sub-
ject to that imputation ? The Noble Lord asked why this tax
should bs hid upon foreign corn, and not upon home-grown
corn; and the Noble Lord instanced the cases of barley and
malt,as a proof that revenue was raised from home pi oduce. If
revenue (he said) were raised on barley and malt, why
should it not be raised on home-grown corn ? Why not pursue
as to %heat the same course as to barley, and why not subject
the fos eign and the home barley to an equal duty? Ile stated
last )ear, not because it is as in the contemplation of the Go-
vernment to alter the present law, but when pressed to make a
declaration on the part of the Government—he did say that he
would not, under all circumstances, pledge himself to adhere
to the present law, for he thought that was a course inconsistent
with the duty he owed h:s Sovereign and his country. He did
not say that because he contemplated a change.—(" Hear,
hear," from the Ministerial benches.) The Hon. Member
said that there were two courses—either to maintain the pre-
sent law or to repeal it. As for the fixed duty, he thought it
would be impossiole for the Government to maintain that. He
(Sir R. Peel) thought whenever the present corn.lavvs were
repealed—whenever that revolution took place in the present
system of corn-laws, he ( Sir Robert Peel) would not
be the supporter of it. He said now, as he said last
session, that though he would not think it consistent with
his public duty, be would not conciliate support by en-
gaging to adhere, under all circumstances, to a par-
ticular law he repealed, he did not contemplate any altera-
tion in the present law. The price of corn since the operation
of the present law—( Renewed cries of " Hear, bear," from
the Conservative benches)—the price of corn since the ope-
ration of the present law was as fixed as at any former period.
Let them look to the price of corn for the last 4 or 5 years, and
its variati'ins. He held in his hand a list of the prices of corn
for the last 54 years—since 1790—the average price of wheat was
50s. Id. In 7 years of that period the average price of wheat
was less than during the last four or five years. He thought the
present law had operated favourably. He hoped that the
general state'of the country would justify the expectations re-
garding it in the Queen's speech. Trade had revived in some
of its most important branches, It should be remembered
that great changes were made in the commercial policy of this
country in the year 1843. When he (Sir R. Peel) last year
stated in that House that there were indications of the
improvement of trade, his observations were scouted with
derision—that nothing could be greater or more hopeless than
the depression. The iron trade was still in a depressed state,
but he hoped the consumption of that article in branches of
manufactures in which it was much used would cause its im-
provement. With respect to the revenue he would not pourtray
its condition in bright colours. In the present year the usual
deficiency, had been avoided, and there was amply sufficient
to meet existing charges.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped the Go-
vernment had met Parliament under improved circumstances.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear," from both sides of the House. )
Looking to their foreign policy they had not adjusted all the
questions of difference in the United States, but they had re•
moved those immediate obstructions to a good understanding
which two years ago threatened the relations of amity between
the two countries. In France, without a concession of either
Government, he was justified in stating that a friendly under-
standing between the countries had been established ; that
friendly understanding would be mutually advantageous to
them in every quarter of the globe in which their
interests weree concerned. He hoped that that de-
pression which caused so much suffering among the
working classes—would at last be converted into grow.
ing prosperity. There still existed in many parts of the
country distress which they could not view without sympathy.
Ile hoped they had been justified in stating that they (the
Government had fulfilled their duty, and that they had met
Parliament after having fulfilled the promises which they made,
and the prospects which they held out, and that they had not
been wanting in their duty to the Sovereign or to the country.
The Right Hon. Baronet resumed his seat amidstgreat cheering.
Lord PALMERSTON said he had viewed with great satis-
faCtion some of the announcements made. It was very grati-
fying to learn that the distress which continued so long and
so severely was beginning to disappear—that the revenue was
beginning to recover, and, with the addition of the income-tax,
was likely to exceed the expenditure. Whether these results
would have happened earlier from the measures which the Govern.
ment, of which he (Lord P.) had been a Member, had proposed
was another question. —( Laughter from the Ministerial benches. )
He would imitate the example of those who had preceded him,
in not referring to the state of Ireland. He could not but
remark upon the dilemma which his Noble Friend and the
Hon. Members on that side of the blouse were said to have been
reduced. It was said that one was for a fixed duty on foreign
corn, and another for levying
home. If the latter was admitted, it was said why not
abolish all customs duties. But there was no inconsistency
whatever—they levied duties on the importation of many
articles coming from abroad, and there would not be any
a duty in-
consistency
in imposing a duty upon all corn produced at
without imposing a dutyhome. The doc-
trine of the Right Hon.
Baronet was much more extensive
than they were aware of. They were for an indirect
uotryn on r
odue corn e
dcoming
at from abroad
on e
duty, and no good reason had been shown why
foreign corn should not be subjected to an indirect
taxation as well as other commodities. He
p
general satisfaction at the successful terminationaripticofatthed in the
eopelra-
tions in Canton, and which had been so satisfactory in their
results. A treaty had been laid on the table, by which he was
glad to perceive that all the privileges which had been granted
to England had been extended to every other country, in the
world ; that was a very wise and fitting condition. Whether
the proposition was made by the English Government, or by
the Emperor of China, it was entitled to commendation.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—It was a supplementary treaty.
Lord PALMERSTON—No man could feel more strongly_
than himself the desirableness of coatinuing on terms of
amity between this country and Prance, and
would prove mutually advantageous.
It had been lately stated in the French Chambers by onneciee
the greatest Ministers that country ever had, that between
years IMO and 1836 there was a most cordial union between
that had had
that country and England, and the effect of that unionfthe world.
a most material tendency in preserving the peace o
They were constantly taunted during that period ofe sixheadof the
(Hear, hear. )f
years—
certainly not by the Right Hon. Baronet, at th
t to
which he then belonged and with which he
immediately surrounding him, but by personswas now acting,
Government, nor by the Honourable Members
of
ft
thattha t momentpary
with being subservient to the policy of France. lie (Lord
Palmerston) stated, whenever that unmeritedreproach
made, that that alliance would last u long as theinterests
policy of the two countries, real or supposed, were
identical ; and that when those interests, real or
imaginary, were no longer identical, whenever they began
to diverge, the alliance would at once become less cordial. The
interests of the two countries had become less identical, not
because England had parted from France, but because France
choosing, as she had a full right to do, to change her views,
was
made, and
the policy of the two countries necessarily became divergent.
bßeuetamhee mmuosstt saapy thatpare in
n t,ththt transactioneaeoorsewhiah
Einngslvahnich divergence
drursnedlvas
the same which she had marked out for herself long before,
and which she had steadily followed out with the eo-operation
naitreatehnaedd
any her rs ferlofimshtohbee un-
happy
ets
j
of France. Their course of policy from the first was to rescue
Europe
state offrom
in view, and if she had had the misfortune to differ with
France, she at least differed from her along with the other Powers.
Glad was he now to find that the coldness and irritation which
t the
Syria. dangers
Eg which
hd
Beverh
succeeded those events bad disappeared, and that now a cor-
dial and complete understanding existed between the two
countries. He could not, however, avoid expressing some re-
all respects the same which so strongly and happily marked the
grets that the results of this cordial understanding were not in
union of the two countries on the former occasion. The re-
sults which followed the good understanding between France
and England, from the years 1830 to 1836, were, he was
proud to say, conducive to the interests of liberty and happi-
ness of mankind in general. The result of that understanding
was, first, that Belgium was rescued from being subdued and
annexed by force to the Netherlands. The next result was
that Portugal was freed from the despotism of Don Miguel, and
admitted to the enjoyment of free and constitutional govern-
ment. The next result was, that Spain enjoyed the inestima-
ble advantages of popular institutions ; and another advantage of
that alliance was, that the two nations laid aside their
jealousies as maritime Powers, and agreed upon those treaties
of le3l and 1833, which, by conceding the right of search,
aimed the most effectual blow in putting down the slave trade.
Now, if he looked at what might probably be the result of the
present union between the two countries, he was sorry to say
he could not see, nor dare he hope to see, fruit of the same
kind. He saw—whether in consequence or not remained to be
proved—he saw in Spain, that that person, who, by the admis-
sion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Peel),
had been the main cause of peace and the chief preventive of
anarchy—he saw him expelled the country, popular liberty
suspended, military license triumphant, and Spain governed
by proclamatiems instead of by law.—( Hear, hear.) That was
the state of Spain. He greatly feared that another result of
this alliance would be, that the progress which had been made
towards the suppression of the slave trade would be interfered
with. That, indeed, those treaties which had produced this
progress were about to be rescinded; and he would tell the
Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues, that if they were done
away with, a great blow would be given, and a great injury
inflicted on the general interests of humanity.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had adverted to the
fact of the treaty which was signed last year between England
and the United States, as having removed all causes of present
misunderstanding, and facilitated most materially the settle-
ment of others. He (Lord Palmerston) regretted to say that
lie could not see, in the last speech of the President of the
United States, when. speaking of the Oregon territory, -any
manifestation whatever of that feeling of conciliation and good

will which they were so positively assured was to he the result
of the treaty of last year.—( Hear, hear.) He saw exactly the
same language with regard to the Oregon territot as they had
been accustomed to see with respect to the North-Eastern
boundary—the same talk of arms—the same advice to establish
mili•ary posts.—( Hear, hear.) He could not, therefore, but
fear that the same arguments which had been successful with
England, in regard to the North-Eastern territory, would be used
by America, and expected to prevail in regard to the ferr;tery
on the shores of the Pacific. In February, 1842, it would be
in the recollection of lion. Members the speech from the
throne annourieed that Government was in negotiation with
several Powers, which it was gusted would lead to conventions
founded on just principles, and which would lead to great
commercial advantages to all parties. Now they had never
yet heard who were these several Powers, nor what was the
result of these negotiations. It might be presumed, however,
that amongst the Powers thus alluded to were France, the
United States, Portugal, Spain, and Brazil. He (Lord
Palmerston) believed that with none of those Powers hat con-
ventions been concluded. They perhaps would hear, if not
that night, then in the course of the session, what were these
negotiations, and what were the results of them. They knew
that with the United States the determination of the English
Government to maintain the sliding scale forbade success to
any negotiation—they knew that with Portugal negotiations
had not succeeded—they knew nothing likely was to be done in
Spain—they knew there had been negotiations with Brazil,
and questions might probably be asked, negotiations being
at an end, why they had not there been successful ? They
had indeed been informed that the cause of the want of
success was this—that the British Government said
they were prepared to admit Brazilian sugar, the product of
free labour, but not sugar the produce of tree labour; and,
consequently, qa ell het
events considerably
slaver y
modified.th country
The o
ff,
mus( bfe
the abolished,
or r
oGovernment might have been made in good faith, but if it
was, then it showed littla knowledge of the feelings, habits,
and prejudices of the Brazilians. He (Lord Palmerston)
would as soon think of asking English gentlemen to abolish
the corn-faws, as expect to see the Brazilian Government abo-
lish slavery. '1 he one was just as likely as the other. Ru-
mours had prevailed of the intention of Government to pro-
pose some considerable ameliorations of the criminal law. If
such intention did prevail, they might reasonably have ex-
pected some allusion to it in the speech from the throne. To
it, however, ho could offer no objection, for instead of pledging
them to so many things, as supposed by the Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume), it pledged no one to anything. In-
deed, there was nothing in it, and, therefore, he should give his
vote for the address in answer to it, and against the amend-
ments which had been submitted to the House.—( Hear. )
Mr. ROEBUCK said the debate of that evening presented
a most ex'raordinary spectacle. He had always learned to be-
lieve that the time for the proper consideration of the subjects
which had only been hinted at was upon the occasi ,n of making
an address to the Crown. But the Noble Lord the Member
for London (Lord John Russell) had taken to the error that an
address to the Crown was a mere form, and that sentiment
had been re-echoed by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government, so that they were to understand that the bu-
siness for which they had met there was merely to listen
to two speeches delivered by gentlemen in somewhat extra-
ordinary dresses, and that such was to be the sum and substance
of that night's debate. Ought it to be believed that at the
moment when the very union was threatened that nothing was
to be said on that matter or on other questions of vital policy ?
For at that moment they must all know that the danger was
imminent of a dissolution of the union. They could not escape
from that danger, and yet at that precise moment were they
called on by the leaders on both sides of the House to be silent
on the subject. Did that become the position of parties in
Parliament, did it become the position of the Ministry, to be
utterly silent, callous as it were, in such anxious and vital cir-
cumstances, to the happiness and prosperity of the two countries?
There were at present two particular questions which deeply
interested and agitated the two countries ; the one the corn-
laws, and the other the legislative union between England and
Ireland. And both these questions by both sides of the House
were consigned to entire oblivion.—( Cries of " No, no.")
He thought great danger would accrue to the union by the
course of conduct which the House chose to adopt that night.
—( Hear, hear). He thought that the House was playing
O'Connell's card, when it allowed the report to go to Ireland
that it suffered the present proceedings in that country to pass
without comment.—(Cheers). They were doing all they could
to effect the separation of the two countries in passing over
altogether the question which agitated all Ireland from end to
end.—( Hear, hear). O'Connell would say that the House had
done more for him in passing over these questions in silence,
than he could have effected for himself.—( Hear.) Whatever
might be the result, upon the Noble Lord the Member for
London must rest the sole responsibility, because he stood
forward as the great leader of the Liberal party in this country,
of passing over those two great questions, the repeal of the
cern-laws and the repeal of the union.—( Cheers). He (Mr.
Roebuek) was obliged to put aside the substantive motion
which he had intended to bring forward respecting the
grievances of the people. He did not at all agree in the opinion
that the trials in Dublin would be affected by the discussion
which he had proposed to bring forward. But he was obliged
to postpone his purpose, because he was deserted by the great
body of the _Liberal party in that House. .
Lord HCIWICK did not think that the Hon. Gentleman
who bad just'sat down had rightly represented the opinions of
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, or of his Noble Friend who
sat near him. He (Lord Howick) did not think that because
the House did not enter into a discussion of all the topics
which might be alluded to in the speech, the address was a
mere form. It would be very inconvenient on the occasion of
moving the address to enter into the discussion of a great num-
ber and variety of topics.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had said, and said truly, that the present
state of Ireland was highly momentous. But he would ask the
Hon. Gentleman whether it would be convenient to take up
the discussion of these two great questions, the corn-laws
and the union, in a debate upon the address ?—( Hear, hear. )
The Queen's speech was of great use in laying before the
House the general topics of the session. But if the House
was to go into a discussion of each of these, it would be a
useless waste of time, since the subjects must come before them
one by one in a more tangible form.—( Hear, hear.) When,
therefore, the Hon. and Learned Member said that in voting
the address without the discussion of those subjects, they were
consigning the grievances of Ireland and the corn-laws to obli-
vion, he had most grossly misapprehended both the Right
Hon. Gentleman and .his Noble Friend.—( Hear, hear. )
On the part of his Noble Friend and himself, he would say
that not one moment should be lost in bringing before. the
House both these topics. At the same time he must express
his moat entire concurrence in what had been said on both
sides of the House, that it would be most inconvenient to bring
forward those questions respecting Ireland during the present
trial.—( Hear, hear.) It would be impossible to discuss the
measures which were necessary to give peace to that
unhappy country, the objects of the present trials, the
policy of the Government, and the manner in which
the prosecution had been conducted. Could they enter into a
discussion of that description without appearing in that Howe
to be making speeches which would be addressed, not so much
to the House as to the jury which were to try the case?_( Hear.)
It was an evil, unavoidable in trials of this description, that
they enlist poltieal feeling, and there was in Ireland no evil
greater than the effect of political feeling upon the administra-
tion of justice.—( Hear, hear.) hat was the curse
of Ireland—( Loud cheers)—and ,could it be wise to
make the jury-box now, more than ever, the scene of party
warfare ?—( Cheers.) No; but he trusted that when the
trials were concluded, his Noble Friend would bring these
subjects before the House ; and he trusted that the House
would see the necessity of taking measures, before too late, to
rescue Ireland from the danger with which that country and
the nation were threatened —(Cheers.) As to the corn-laws,
he tho fight the question too large to be discussed on an
occasion like the present ; yet he could not help remarking upon
what had fallen upon this subject from the lion. Bart. opposite.
The Right lion. Gentleman had said that he would not con-
sent to a fixed duty for the sake of revenue, and he made that
declaration in such a manner as to render a compromise be-
tween the two parties impossible.—( Hear, hear.) Whether
the Right Hon. Gentleman was a good friend to the agricul-
turists, or was consulting their interests in making such a
compromise impossible, it was not for him to say; but he
thought that the time for compromise was not yet gone by.
When the Hun. Gentleman, and those who acted with him, came
to that determination, they reduced the question to this: " Are
opinions
to
hainehissuehe
had we to maintain the corn •laws, or is the importation of corn to
be free.—(Cheers.) That was the state to which the ques-
tion was now brought.—( Cheers.) And whenever it was
brought
hes 1 (Lordavowed
si
ionwe' c k e
h) e wfinrusltd
seatd hf
oe roet
no t
ht las e
oin t
House in Parliament, and on the hustings, in a purely agri-
cultural county, in favour of the free importation.—(Cheers.)
After the opinions which the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed
it would be idle for those upon the Opposition side of the present
House of Commons to make any propositron for a fixed duty.
But if the Right Hon. Gentleman should hereafter re-consider
his opinion and give them the offer of a compromise, he (Lord
Howick) for one would gladly close with the offer.—( Hear,
hear.) Before he sat down, he must express his cordial con-
currence in those principles of foreign policy to which the
Right Hon. Baronet had given expression. He believed that
there was no greater curse to the world, to civil sation, and
humanity, than the carrying on in every court in Europe, a
petty struggle between a so-called French and English party.
—( Hear.) He abominated the whole system.—( Cheers. )
He thought that we ought to abstain from giving advice to
other nations at to the mode of their carrying on their own
affairs:--(Hear, hear.) When our Minister ventured to give
his advice to the Court at which he represented us, he grew,
by little and little, more exasperated against these whom he
could not infinence, and more attached to the party which ap-
peared to yield to his counsel. In nine cases out of ten where
this conduct was pursued, two factions were raised—a French
faction and an Fnglish faction • and the unfortunate
country became. the prey of both.—(Great cheering.)
He cordially agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in depre-
cating that sort of interference, and he could not help object-
ing to one expression made use of by his Noble Friend, the
Member for Tiverton, in adverting to the affairs of Spain.
" The late Regent hadlfallen from power, and the state of things
was such as one could hardly describe as a military despotism."
Now he (Lord Howick) concurred with his Noble Friend in
regretting what had recently occurred in that country. But
i at the same time he rejoiced that the Right Hon. Baronet and
the French Government had abstained from taking any part in
those affairs.—( Cheers.) He hoped that the people of Spain
would settle their own affairs without any interference, for he
thought that was the only way in which they could return to a
state of security of person and property.—( Hear, hear.) He
did not mean on that occasion to pursue the topic further, but
from had what fallitn from gentlemen on both sides, he did not
think he could have abstained from troubling the House so far.
—( Cheers. )
Mr. WYSE could not allow it to go abroad, that the repre-
sentatives of Ireland were insensible to the condition in which
the country stood at present, or that they would lose any op-
portunity of expressing their indignation at the condition in
which it was at present placed, and their anxiety about the
dangers to which it was exposed, or that they shrank from the
expression of their opinions on one side or the other. They
did net wish to throw any obstacle in the way of
justice, or to interfere with the sacredness of the jury- box ;
but, at the same time, he, for one, was determined not to
allow that debate to pass over without expressing his
opinion that all the questions connected with the present pro-
ceedings in Ireland should be gone into on the earliest occa-
sion. He went home to his constituents with the statement
that nothing had been done for Ireland but a Bill of Pains
and Penalties, and he came back to that House with feelings
of still greater exasperation and indignation. The result of
the course which Government was pursuing would be, to leave
only two parties in Ireland, whose animosity to each other
would be more bitter than ever had been known even in that
country. The question was now raised, whether the future
rule of Ireland was to be in the spirit of judicial tyranny or as
a close corporation?
The O'CONOR DON entirely concurred in what had
fallen from his lion. Friend the Member for Waterford, and
he wished it to be understood that if he concurred in the ad-
dress they would take the opportunity of bringing the attention
of the House to the grievances of Ireland.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to explain its a few words
why he would vote for the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
The proposition of his Hon. Friend was simply this. He
wished the majority of that House to redress the
grievances of the people at the same time that they
provided for the expenditure of the State. Ile was
glad to find that the Right Honourable Gentleman at the
head of the Government had taken the advice of the Noble
Lord the Member for London, and that he had given a pledge
not to maintain the existing corn-law.—(Cheers.) He (Mr.
Gibson) drew the inference from the speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, that he Would not yield to any unreasonable re-

quest from the agriculturists to pledge himself to maintain the
protective system. They could plainly see in the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, that when he intended to maintain
any particular line of policy that he would pledge himself to
maintain that policy. They saw that he would pledge himself
to maintain the legislative union between England and Ireland.
He (Mr. Gibson) knew perfectly well that neither the Itight
lion. Baronet, nor any other Minister in the present. state of
the country, would authorise a speech which pledged the Go.
vernment to maintain a protective policy ; or that any Minister
addressing the House upon his general views would do any
thing more than say "at the present particular mo pent. I have
no measure to submit to the consideration of Parliament."
The Right Hon. Baronet bad taken a most judicious course.
lie had left this an open question.—(Oh, oh.) Ile had
pledged himself to no longer a period than a month. lie had
said that if the abolition of the corn-laws were to take place
within a month it. would be most disastrous to the country.
He (Mr. Gibson) defied the flight Hon. Baronet, or any
other Miniater, to stand up in his place that evening, and say in
so many words, ".I will maintain the existing corn-laws." i e
(Mr. Gibson) was glad the Right lion. Gentleman had taken
that course, because he differed in some measure i•h his
lion. Friend the Member for Montrose, that it was desirable
that the Right Hon. Baronet should pledge himself on the
question—especially if he pledged himself to maintain the
protective system.--( Laughter ) ing the authority the
Right Honourable Gentleman was in the country—know-
ing the great consequence attached by the occupying
tenantry to any distinct enunciation by the Right lion. Baronet
with respect to this question. If he were to do so the pro-
prietor of the land would say to the occupying tenant, " I'cll
may have faith that protection will be maintained—you may
agree to pay higher rents—you may contract. safely to take
leases at. higher rents, fur the Rig-ht lion. Gentleman will
never give way." That would be the course taken by the
landed proprietors if any distinct pledge were to be given by
her Majesty's Government. He (Mr. Gibson) hoitied the oc-
cupying tenantry of the cc untry would see how unstable a
foundation they had in former times rested upon. He hoped
they would see how dangerous it was to place faith in any re.
presentation that protection would be maintained. He
(Mr. Gibson) would take the advice given by Honourable
Gentlemen around him, and not trespass longer on
the attention of the House, as there would be
other opportunities of discussing these important ques-
tions. But he !.ailed with great satisfaction the movement
which the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had taken upon themselves
to conduet, in support of the protective system. lie thought
it quite right, if they believed that the protective system was
for the benefit of the labouring classes or the great body of the
industrial community, that they should express their opinions
in public, and all he asked of them was to confine themselves
to rational argument and to intelli ent reasoning, and not
allow themselves to be betrayed into abusive and discreditable
language.— (Cheers and laughter.) The use of such language
could not be justified on any side in the discussion of public
questions. He could only say that if ever he had been guilty
of it himself he would be very happy to express his sorrow
for having been so betrayed. All he desired was that
that this question should be discussed, by the two great inte-
rests of the community in a rational and intelligent spirit ; and
he believed that if it were continued in that spirit, the landed
proprietors would see that a system of free trade was more
conducive to the commercial and manufacturing interest than one
of restriction ; and that if free trade were to be adopted, the
landed proprietors themselves would share in the general pros-
piirity which would accrue to the country at large.
Sir R. PEEL thought it was hardly necessary for him
to answer the Hon. Gent:eman. Ile apprehended the lion.
Gentleman meant to be facetious, because he was himself smil-
ing. The lion. Gentleman had said that Ile (Sir R. Peel)
was the advocate of the abolition, within a month, of all pro•
tection to agriculture. That he (Sir Robert Peel)
had said was that if such a measure was carried within a month
within.. but disorder and confusion would ensue.—(Cheers.
The Hon. Gentleman said that all he (Sir R. Peel) had said
en the subject of the corn-laws was that he was not prepared
to consent to a repeal of the corn-laws wehin a month.
What he had really said—anti the House would recollect it, was
that the Government intended to propose no alteration, and
that if they had intended any alteration it would have been
mentioned. The Government had never contemplated any
alteration, ani they did not then contemplate any alteration.
He said he believed that every man who well considered the
duty of a Minister of this country who proposed to conciliate
support, would see that on the part of the Government, in
matters relating to the imposition of a duty not involving a great
public principle, he could not involve an eternal principle.
Mr. PLUMPTRE confessed that after the speech of the
Hon. Member for Manchester he would not have been satis-
fied. But after the explanation of the Right Hon. Baronet he
felt perfect satisfaction. He represented an agricultural con-
stituency, and he felt convinced that the speech of the flight,
Hon. Baronet would prove perfectly satisfactory to them. He
could assure Hen. Gentlemen opposite that they would never
succeed in putting down the agricultural interest by clamour
and combination. He trusted the Government would be firm
in their determination to uphold the agricultural interest, for
if it were once injured every other great interest of the country
must suffer.

Mr. BROTIIERTON said, that although he intended to
vote with his lion. Friend the Member for Rochdale, he
wished to guard himself against the supposition that he intended
to enter into a compact against the granting of the supplies.
He would never do so, because he believed that such means
would never attain the object they had in view. lie had lately
been waited upon by members of his own constituency, who
had called upon him to enter his opposition to the granting of
the supplies. his answer to them was, were he to grant their
reqwst, they themselves would be the first to turn round and
condemn him for having done so. They would discern that a
small minority were wasting the whole of the session in useless
divisions against the majority, while the grievances of
the people remained unconsidered. He could never agree
to such a course as that. With respect to what had fallen
from the Hon. Seconder of the address, he (Mr. 13rotherton)
was ready to admit that improvement had taken place in some
of the branches of our manufactures ; but in making that ad-
mission, lie must say that there was every reason to expect that
that improvement could not continue. lie must confess that
he did not draw the same inference from the speech of the
Right Hon. Baronet as the Hon. Member for Manchester. Ile
fully understood the cheer which followed the declaration of
the Right Hon. Baronet, that a fixed duty would not be pro •
posed by him. The country would soon see who were their mas-
ters. The landed interest would press them to starvation point,
and then, relaxiog a save them from actual death.
it was clear the Right lion. Bart. intended to keep up the
sliding scale. If it should please Providence to afflict us with
another bad harvest, what would be the condition of the pet).
ple? Were the landed proprietors determined to keep up their
protection at the expense of the lives of the people? He,
white he had the power, would use every er,desvour to
get rid of this law, which was a disgrace to the statute book.
lie saw the lion. and Gallant Member for Lincoln present.
Now, he had read in a newspaper, that at a meeting where he
was present they talked of the League, and the language used
by them ; but it was said that if Mr. Cobden came to Lincoln-
shire they shculd throw him into the river.—(Laughter.)
Was not that holding out a premium for assassination ?--( A
laugh.) Were men to be threatened with being drowned
when they went to a place for the purpose of doing good?
Now, there was a Mr. Chaplin, a great landed proprietor, he
was in possession of upwards of 20,000 acres cf land, which
within the present century was not worth Is. an acre, and now
it was worth 255., and yet that individual wanted protection.—
( Hear, hear.) What protection, he would ask, had the poor
man ? None.—( Hear, hear. ) It had been attempt, dto be
shown that lie had protection, that protection was given to
the farmer and labourer, but neither one nor the other had
been shown.—( Hear, hear.) And now the landed class clung
to protection because it was bent ficial to them. He felt no
doubt that the people would feel the injustice of these things,
and would so be enabled to put an end to them.
Mr. VILLIERS and Mr. MUNTZ rose together, but the
latter gave way, and Mr. Villiers proceeded to address the
House : Ile felt greatly indebted to his lion. Friend, the
Member for Montrose, for moving the amendment he had done.
lie had mentioned the subject to him, and his (Mr. Villiers')
only reason for either not seconding the motion or moving it was
that, it was his intention to bring the corn-laws b 'fore the
House in a distinct form.—( Hear, hear. ) He must confess
that lie did not altogether think the mode adapted by the lion.
Member for Montrose the most. efficient mode of breigitig so
important a subject before the House.— ( Hear, hear.) file
constitnencies had had the subject most ably and faithfully dis-
cussed before them, and they ought to have an opportutnty of
asking their Members which way they intended to vote. 'f his
subject had been brought under the attention of the consti-
tuency by a great combination of intelligence, worth, and in-
fluence, but no fair discussion had been taken on the subject in
that House.—(Hear.) Indeed he felt that this question must.
be discussed out of doors, and, in fact, carried there, before it
could be carried in that House.—( Hear, hear. ) And if there
was any doubt upon that subject that doubt had been removed
by what had taken place that night ; because the Right. lion.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government had shown
that he felt he could not maintain the present system or
abandon ir.—(Hear, hear.) That was the situation of the
question. Those who took independent views of the question
felt it was not tenable or consistent with the interests of the
people. 'I he Right Hon. Baronet felt that by the principles
of the Constitution he could not abandon it. The Noble Lord,
then Member for the City of Londoinhadtaid, in so many words
that it was necessary for the landed interest and the aristocracy,
and that they had a direct interest in the question.—( Hear.)
Since the revolution of 1788 the aristocracy had governed the
country. The Government was not the Government of the
Queen, but the Minister was the Minister of the landed pro-
prietors ; they it was who governed the country.—( Hear.)
It was not, therefore, to be wondered at that the Right Hon.
Baronet would not alter a law which he knew if he did he
would not be safe in his place in the Government for a month,
or a week, or a day ; in short, that his Government would lie
at an end the moment he abandoned a system from which the
people suffered so much, and the landed proprietors received
such benefits.—(Hear, hear.) The protective policy was the
most important question that could be agitated in this country
it was the question upon which everything must turn in the
country, for it effected the physical condition of the people in
every respect.—( Hear, hear. ) The• present protective system
could not be maintained consistently with the good of the
people of the country. lie thought it did not become the
Right lion. Baronet to countenance demonstrations against
the proceedings of the Anti-Corn-law League in order to en-
deavour to persuade the people that the repeal of the corn-
' laws would be injurious to them. lie had read a work in the
Foreign and Colonial Review, in which he believed the Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, had some share.
The Government were claiming praise for the improvement of
the general condition of the country ; but what were the causes
of the fluctuation that had taken place in that rendition they
were not told. Now the whole of the question was handled in
the work he] had alluded to, which had been just put forth,
which was a consideration of the commercial policy of the pre-
sent Government in lowering the duties and the tariff. It was
in that work viewed under five heads : —lts effects on trade; on
increased demand for manufactures ; increased demand for
employment ; its effect cn shipping ; and its effect on egrienl-
tune ; and in that work the very arguments held out by those
who were advocates for free trade were prominently- put forth.
It was said it was impossible to have free trade and
protective duties ; this very work proved that by free
trade the people would have cheaper clothing, cheaper dwellings,
and cheaper every thing, if they had free trade.—(Hear,
hear.) This work stated that its effects on trade were reduc-
tion of duty, increased consumption, and increased trade.
That in every respect increased consumption of foreign arti-
cles led to increased demand for manufactures; that in-
creased demand for employment would be increased by free
trade ; that its effect on shipping was to increase the foreign
trade, and also the demand for ships; and its effect on agri-
culture was the importation of cattle ; and that an extensive
improvement in trade would follow, and be participated in by
agriculturists. These were the sentiments that had been put
forth under the especial patronage, he believed, of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade. That Right Hon. Gentleman,
last session, had been charged with being the author of a
particular article in this Review, and he did not deny it. Nov
was not this, he would ask, trifling with the people? The
population of this country was increasing at a ft ightful rate.
It had been said that distress was decreasing. For his
own part, he believed that there never was such
destitution known as was in London at the pre-
seet moment. Was it not horrid to see women destroying
their children sooner than that they should starve, and was it
nut a lamentable thing when people committed crimes in order
to hurry them into prison, because they were more comfortable
there than in their own homes ? And jet they were told
no change or alteration was to be permitted to take r acre ion
these laws, whatever may be the consequences to
ht
an adherence to them.—(Cheers.) Whatever mg t e the
consequences to the people, the landed proprietors had deter.