The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-13 00:00:00

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SILK TRADE.
$.,01.• LIGON presented a petition from the Silk-
kiiwsters of Brockley, praying for protection
tflost the importation of foreign silk.
lis,i 41 E. SOMERSET presented a similar peti-
viftloto Overbury.
n • LITTLETON, in presenting a similar peti-
,l, f.
lttenl°ln Newcastle-under-Lyme, begged to call the
114ic% of the Secretary for the Treasury to the
tilt 3, t
et of the.petition, the petitioners complained of
iik ell 3 %ration of the law of 1821, and he wished to
4 „4
le Hon. Gentleman whether it was intended to
"fie the protection afforded under that law.
;Litt : G..DAWSON said in reply, that it was the
l'tvltlan of the Vice President of the Board of
Ilie,e to introduce a Bill to continue the present
far one year longer.
kltt, SIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE.
bet.l% O'BRIEN moved for a new Writ for a Mem-
tilt `° serve for the county of Clare, in the room of
tlet„; 'gilt Hon. Vesey Fitzgerald, who, since his
45,,.!0 had accepted the office of President of the
'a of Trade.—Ordered.
'I At ALE-HOUSES LICENSING BILL.
'),t ter a short conversation with Mr. Secretary
11:l'i Mr. ESTCOURT fixed Tuesday next for the
t,ke resolving itself into Committee on the Ale-
its Licensing Bill.
Ale-
sin the suggestion of Mr. HOBHOUSE, Mr. HUME
I ittiillew a motion of which he had given notice
Ilk,l la evening, to bring in a Bill to regulate the
likg of the poll by allot, in cities, towns, counties,
ue'rotighs, until e
I i THE CATHOLIC QUESTION.
),,,' P. BURDETT presented a petition from
4$ Parish in the county of Kerry, in favour of the
holle Claims, and spoke nearly as follows :
, ek,,llgh the decision of the other House of Parlia-
-1 11has been against the question, it strikes me,
1". trust that it will be considered by the people
N4land, that there is a fairer prospect of success
1 that
there has hitherto been—(Hear, hear)—
ta'eat there arc more reasonable grounds of hope
re future. I hope that this view of the subject
It fate the effect of tranquillizing men's minds,
Of allaying that irritation which it is impossible.
it
AL hey must not feel; for it is impossible that
t'll6 of men can be debarred from the rights of
tltit-''ommon nature, and froto the liberty of their
Y- I trust that between this and the next
',1111.11 of Parliament—calling to mind the temper
'Veh the discussion has been carried on, calling
, I ‘1.!1(1 the decision- that has taken place in this
\si7 in favour of the measure—something will be
\'Necl upon that may prove successful. And
lsistais House shall take into consideration the
iit itity of this question remaining in its present
N, I trust that it will next Session be ready to
ilt,li,4.te the appeal already made, and that the Ca-
tk: will be able to go to the other House,
Netened by that appeal—(Cheers)--while that
14741tself, whoever may then be Minister, will
NI still further convinced of the necessity of a
ilkik adoption of some conciliatory -measure.—
el tll that the Roman Catholics of Ireland will
1,, .
'" "'lime hoe that I entertain on this occasion,
ti litat • • p
th"%ti t4l It will have the effect—not of inducing
!
ktb, relax in their exertions, nor in any effort ttellil,'' haw they are enabled to make, but of con-
i°tt '
Nit Y discontent that they may naturally feel
eYgi, Claims being again rejected; but though
f.atlpe.top this mode of expressing their feelings,
re4,olat they will still continue, under the bend
'ink dl and of law, to claim those rights, which I
idst cialtiot much longer be withheH. Ie the
'1 solki:or disappointment, Sir, I have derived one
;leved t 1 from our having a Ministry which has
NI 7, subject of a great part of its former
litill,"Y their means we have got rid of all that
vet with which it m as formerly encumbered ,

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*as to
NI equalize the.duty upon glass manufactured in
Ind and Scotland, with a view to prevent
filing in that article.
sale DAWSON brought in a Bill to regulate the
AS, bf Exciseable Articles en board of packets.
T, a few words from Mr. Alderman and Mr. P.
to VON, .the bill was read a first time and ordered
xue read a second time on Monday next.
I, 'lr. DAWSON brought in the Annual Sugar
zuties, Bill.—Read a first time, and ordered to be
ad a second time on Monday next.
4,401 xiDAWSON moved for a copy of the Report
Ohs" Commissioners of the Post-office, and also a
vt;rYof the Memorial presented by the inn-keepers
- Holyhead-road.—Ordered.
TRANT presented a petition from Dover
-u..418t. the Ale-house Licensing Bill.
con,,_, BASTARD presented a petition from Ma-
e '‘A: against farther concessions to the Roman
NI% EYRON presented a petition from Hertfori-
-'co. PraYing for the abolition of Negro Slavery.
•ui• LEGEi KECK presented a petition from
t;44owners in Leicestershire, praying for a small
et circulation.
w • DUGDALE presented a petition from War-
le,!%hire praying for the abolition of Negro Slavery.
}:)tr J. NEWPORT presented a petition from the
09f.,,e, en merchants of Belfast praying for a reduction
'lle duty on tobacco.
4• r. Alderman THOMPSON presented a peti-
from the Master Butchers of London and West-
er, against the removal of Smithfield Market.
nr7: Petitioners stated, that one of the consequences
t•
ae removal would be, the increase in the price of
tof a penny per pound to the consumer. If the
~uutise would postpone the introduction of any mea-
e upon this subject, he (Mr. Alderman Thomp-
,„"
had no doubt that the Corporation of London
d, th„_°4lbetween this and next Session, adopt some
pi:4.e which would remedy the inconvenience coin-
Itied of by a petition presented last night.
J. YORKE said, if there was any truth in the
'enlent relative to this market contained in a
/Tilted paper put into his hands at the door of the
tr,°,44e, it was high time for the House to interfere
do away with the nuisance ; for what with the
Clrld Junction concern, and the gore of blood sent
i'ettl this market and the adjoining slaughter-houses
k•te the Thames, he should not be surprised to see a
.
flerai vomit throughout the House.—(Laughter.)
Ijolonel TRENCH was deeply impressed with
e necessity of some alteration, and he thought
nave suggestions might be taken from the plan
b:Pted in Paris, by which alterations of the utmost
,h4efit to the metropolis might be made, and he
ti °ltld suggest the propriety of turning the Peniten-
-41, at Milibunk, into one great abattoir.
I,ir• Alderman WOOD said, the petition pre-
kh"ted last night was signed by persons who
t, nothing of the subject ; and with respect
di the suggestion respecting the Penitentiary be
iqd not see how it could remedy any eue of the
Caveniencies set forth in that petition. The
°rPoration of London had at various times brought
tbills, from 1802 to 1810, to enable them to change
pit, Market, but those'Bills were defeated by map-
th,es of that Mouse. He approved of the prayer of
tio Petition, and had no doubt that upon full inquiry
blame would attach to the Corporation of
%don.
pril:ltheecipetition was brought up, and ordered to be
i°: message was brought from their Lordships stet-
B lat they had agreed to the different private
tht"', and also requestit.g a Copy of the Report of
Committee in 1824, on the Salmon Fisheries of
~
`"tiand•
kr. Alderman THOMPSON moved for a return
t,
number of ships, with their tonnage, belong-
V 0 Great Britain, in 1825, 1826, and 1827.
MUNDAY presented a petition from 11-
x. ' for the abolition of slavery.
At I(.ENNEDY presented a petition from the
ih."3oyterians of Canada, praying that they might
b,4llowed to share in any provisions made for the
7estamt Clergy in Canada.
tio'llfter a few words from Mr. ESTCOURT, the peti-
q/.4s referred to the Canada Committee.
khof.' PENDARVES presented a petition for the
At 1604 of Slavery, from Truro.
itbr, I% PORTMAN presented a petition from Mary-
'he, against the Friendly Societies Bill.

—so that whenever this question shall again come
under discussion, it will not be necessary to enter
either on ancient treaties—such as the Treaty of
Limerick or others—or on the pledges supposed to
arise out of those treaties. Instead of this, Sir,
we shall only have to consider the question on the
ground of common sense and common expediency;
which, after all, is the strongest, and, indeed, the
only real ground on which it can be considered.
Besides, I also feel confident, that a person like the
Nobleman at present at the head of the Govern-
ment, would never hold out a prospect that could be ;
liable to any ambiguity, on a subject of such vital
importance as this.—(Hear, hear.)--It is impossible
that the Duke of Wellington should give to the Ca-
tholics rational grounds of hope, if there were not
in his own mind rational hope of their being fulfilled.
Under these circumstances I am happy to leave this
question ; and I have no doubt, that when it comes to
be considered with that candour which we have every
reason to believe that it will (and seeing that it is
already narrowed thus far into one point, as it were), it
will not be difficult to accomplish the end that we have
in view.—(Hear.)—There is hardly any person now,
• in either House of Parliament, who considers this
question any longer as one of that vital importance
which it was once held to be.—(Hear, hear.)—
While this question is put solely on the ground of
securities, arid those who wish for these 'securities
will not suggest what they should be; and especially
since others have so long and so frequently at-
tempted, by every means they can devise, to satisfy
them, it is now incumbent on those who put the
question on that point to state what securities they
will be satisfied with. They should act as was done
with respect to the repeal of the Test and Corpo-
ration Acts—they should let7us know what they dc-
mand.—(Cheere.)—l think that it would be wise
for them to follow the opinions of the Noble Duke
at the head of the Administration. I fully agree
with that noble person, that it is not for us to enter
into terms with any party. It is not for us to ask
leave of the Pope what we should do, but we ought
fearlessly to speak the language of Legislators, re-
solved to perform a great duty to their fellms-sub-
jects. Above all, we should act justly towards
them, and, depend on it, than justice a greater se-
curity there can be none. Whatever other securi-
ties may be thought necessary on the part of those
who are anxious to guard against the supposed de-
signs of the Catholics, I do not pretend to prize
them very highly. I do think, as it was expressed
by Lord Liverpool, that if these claims arc inadmis-
sible on constitutional principles, there is an end to
the question. " I put no value," said that Noble
Lord, "on securities in that case." The best se-
curity is to settle the question in that way that will
give the most satisfaction, by admitting, on the
broad basis of justice, those who lay claim to these
rights. It was his opinion that the measure should
be carried on these grounds. He, like my-
self, little valued these additional securities. At
the same time, I must say also that I am not hostile
to any reasonable securities that can be consistently
offered and consistently accepted, and that would be
quite satisfactory to the Catholics themselves, and
such as, without actually becoming Protestants, they
can reasonably give. I should be sorry, however, to
annex securities as a condition; because it would, as
it seems to me, do away with the grace of the inea-
sure.—(Hear, hear.)—Every body knows that in
conferring a favour there is as much obligation laid on
the party favoured by the manner in which it is
granted us by the boon itself. It would be more
wise and more dignified, on our part, and in my Opie
nion more calculated to have the effect desired, if
we could see this measure granted without any cone
ditions. The grand security will be, that it will
unite all men of all religious persuasions in one com-
mon bond of constitutional freedom. In possessing
equal' rights, they will have a common interest in
supporting the State. They will be no longer con-
sidered as belonging to a different part of this great
kingdom, nor as sectaries having different interests
from each other, and placed under a different system
of law with various disqualifications. The grand
security is, that this proposition will take away all
the causes of dissatisfaction; and I may here remark,
that existing as they do at present, these persons
have not on any occasion been found wanting to
their country. Their services have not been with-
held, though they have net ceased their complaints,
as they should not; for were they, as it has been
said by their ablest advocate in another place—were
they capable of enduring this grievance without com-
plaining, they would not deserve relief.—(Cheers.)
They have brought forward their claims by legal and
constitutional means, and now have the good wishes
of every generous and just mind in the country,what-
ever may be his religious opinions. The grand secu-
rity then is, in the first place, to take away all cause
of discontent from millions of our Catholic fellow-
subjects. If we should find that they are not contented
' with the justice we have administered to them, the
effect would be to re-unite the Protestant interest into
one body, who, with one voice and one arm,would be
against them. The Protestant establishment would
then be placed on a rock from which- in vain they
would endeavour to remove it. In that case it
would become, as it is now, indeed, a Protestant as
well as a Catholic question, and more Protestant
than Catholic, as concerning the interests of the
State, and as concerning the stability-of the country.
It is Catholic only as a matter of grievance to a
great number of persons professing that religion.
It is a cause of weakness to the Protestant Govern-
ment, by making the Protestants look on each other
with feelings of reproach and ill will. We who ad-
vocate these claims, are placed in an unfriendly po-
sition towards those who oppose them, not, I admit,
with violence turd virulence as formerly, for there
are now hardly more than two or three of that spirit
remaining. I confess that I cannot help looking on
them as bigots and as Popish bigots, too, in the
most Popish point, according to their own showing;
because, if, as they say, it be the character of the
Roman Catholic Church to be intolerant, and to
refuse justice to those who differ from it, they
make themselves liable to all the objections they
urge to the admission of the persons, whose rights
and just claims they oppose. The great ground
of security is, that this measure will . unite all
the Protestants in the country in one common band,
for the defence of the Protestant Establishment. The
existing law is the only means by which seven
millions of people can be kept united as one man
against the Government of the country. The only
means by which such a union as this can be effected
among persons of all classes, is the feeling of the per-
secution they suffer for their religious opinions—the
only means to keep the Catholic community or-
ganised and in subjection to the Government, which
is regularly carried on amongst them in spite of the
existing Government of the country. Ireland dis-
plays in this respect a singular phenomenon. It
shows how easily men are gdverned with their own
consent. There is an Association, I will not say
armed with no authority, for it was the greatest au-
thority in Ireland, but with no
power except what
it derives from the voluntary obedience of the people.
It is difficult to say whether any Government could
be devised by which millions of men could in the
same way be brought to act as one man on all occa-
sions. This is the great danger we have to dread ;
and I must say it is a situation not to be endured;
but I see eo alternative for it but the settlement of
this question. Nobody pretends to deny that this
danger exists. Nobody proposes to begin a war of
extermination against seven or eight millions of our
fellow-subjects. The danger has arisen from the
mode in which it has been fostered and fomented by
—it is a hard word to say the folly, but, I will say
--the impoliey of those Administrations who have
succeeded each other since this question has became
a matter of dispute. By degrees they have, by their
mode of proceeding, fomented the,discontent of the-
Catholics until they are made .a compact body, of
which we cannot get rid, and ought not, if we could,
by any means. Their situation Admits of no alter-
native but that single measure of justice which could
cost us nothing., and which would leave us strong
and united to rely on 'slur own power to resist any
consequences that might ensile. I really do believe
that nothing would settle, confirm, and strengthen

the Protestant establishment so much as to take
away every cause of dissatisfaction not only among
the Catholics, but the Protestants. The great body
of the Protestants of Ireland, fully one-half of
them, are anxious that this question should be set-
tled. Every body agrees that it ought to be set-
tled, and no man Is able to point out any other way
of settling it than the present. We have been told
by a Noble Person of high legal authority, in the very
last debate oil this subject, that it was surrounded
with all sorts of difficulties, great, and almost im-
possible
to overcome; but he said it was our duty
somehow or other (these were his very words), to
surmount them. When I heard this, I expected to
1 find some way pointed out for surmounting these
difficulties : but there we conic to a "lame and im-
potent conclusion," for nothing was offered beyond
pointing out our duty, and the danger of not doing
it. But not one word did I hear as to the way in
which it %Vas to be done, In concluding I have only
to express my satisfaction at the view which the first
Minister of the country has taken on this subject.—
It seems to be really a question of that kind which
belongs to the Government to settle.. The measure
ought to come from the Administration.—(Cheers.)
and since we now have at the head of the Govern-
ment a man capable of deciding on questions of po-
licy and judging for himself—a man of strong under-
standing, who sees his point, and is not to be deter-
red from pursuing it, I will express my hope and
faith—though I must confess my hope is stronger
than my faith—that that line will be pursued.
—(Loud cheers), and that " we shall not be
obliged to bring forward and support any more
motions in this House, in utter despair that it is in our
power to serve those on whose behalf we make then),
except by bringing their cause under discusssion. The
Question can only be properly introduced, brought
forward by the Government itself; for it is of soch
magnitude; it affects all the interests of the country
so deeply, not only what are commonly called its
interests at home and abroad, but those which more
materially and immediately concern the public in
that which has been called its most sensitive part—
its pocket ;—it absorbs the resources of the country
to such an extent; for, unquestionably, if it were
not for this dispute with the people of Ireland, mil-
lions of public money might be saved—that it is of
the highest and most urgent importance to have it
put into a train of settlement without delay. I trust
that it will not fall to my unhappy lot to bring it
forward again. If it should, I shall be much disap-
pointed., But I do hope, that next Session we shall
take it into consideration on the motion of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers themselves. They alone are able
to make a proposition that shall set the question at
rest, and give tranquillity and security to the whole
kingdom.
Mr. Secretary PEEL—As the Hon. Baronet has
expressed a hope that this question may be taken up
by the Administration in the course of next Session,
and that some measure will be proposed by them for
the relief of the Roman Catholics, I wish to say a
few words, from my desire to prevent any miscon-
struction of my opinions on this question. By the
Constitution of his Majesty's Government, each
individual Minister has the right for himself to form
his own opinions, exercise his own judgment, and
state his own sentiments on all questions of public
importance. It is only necessary for me to state,
that for my own individual opinion on this question,
I must refer to the declarations I have repeatedly
made in the debates that have taken place upon it
in this House. I speak only for myself, and I only
desire that no inference may be drawn as to my
opinions,,except from the course I have pursued and
the declarations I have made.

Mr. WM. BARING remarked, if the object of
Government was to preserve public order, and de-
fend these who had property from those who had it
not, the situation of the Government of Ireland
must be peculiarly difficult, because there was no
country in the world in which the division between
the rich and the poor was so broad and sudden. In
England there were intermediate links in the chain
of society between the highest and the lowest ; but
in that country they were wanting altogether. The
Right Lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) would, perhaps,
tell the House how the Government of Ireland was
to act in the anomalous situation in which it was
placed. It. did not depend on the Aristocracy, but
faction, and its only means of controul ever the
people was the bayonet. If no concessions were
intended to be made to the Catholics of Ireland, it
would be better to take from them their priVileges,
which only served continually to work up their feel-
ings and excite their discontent.

Sir J. YORKE—I must say, after hearing them
both, I would rather take the Hon. Baronet's speech
than that of the Hen. Gentleman who has followed
him. I observe that, in the discussion of this ques-
tion, there is always some intimidation used on both
sides. I admit that the legal number and odium
thcologicum of Dr. Duigenan, are left out of the de-
bates, and that we hear less of the fire and faggots.
—(A laugh.)—But still I du think the Hon. Mem-
ber for Westminster, Whe alluded to what was lately
said in the House of Lords,--(Order I)—rather
goes beyond the Noble Duke's speech. There was
certainly agreat deal of liberality in it, and I concur
entirely in the eloquent terms in which the Hon.
Baronet spoke of the Noble Dike. But as far as I
recollect, what he said was very different. The
Noble Duke said, " I can't see my way"--(A
laugh ;)--if we give up these matters, what secu-
rities are we to have ?" And there was not any
Learned Doctor there, either on the Spiritual or the
Temporal Bench, who could tell liim.—(A laugh.)
—I agree with the Noble Duke, that in giving up
laws which have been enacted for the defence of our
establishments, when we are not able to provide any
Isubstitute for them, we should not act wisely. That
is my feeling, though I am aware it is not regular on
my part to allude to what has passed in the other
House.—(A laugh.)
Mr. C. W. WYNN--It was with great regret
that I learned from the votes of the other House,
that in the Resolution we sent up to it, the Lords
have refused to concur. I should not have been
surprised if they had met it by proposing to change
the Resolution to one pledging themselves to take
the subject into consideration early next Session.
But when every man, both in and out of Parliament,
concurs in this one point, that the danger to which
the country is exposed is pressing and imminent,
that such a propositieu should be met by a negative
is really to me matter of astonishment.—(Cheers.)
I have many allusions this evening to what
was said in the debate in the other House; but I
do not myself know, what passed there, except as I
can judge by those reports by which the public in
general are made acquainted with the proceedings of
Parliament. I had not personally the opportunity
of judging as some of my Hon. Friends had; and I
do confess that from any of the reports I have seen,
I do not entertain. those sanguine expectations ex-
pressed by the Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett).
The speeches I have read may be incorrectly stated.
I see in them only a studious wish to excite hope,
but an equally studious determination to say no-
thing that can be construed into a pledge to
gratify that hope.--(Hear, hear.) I think the
conduct of my Right Hon. ?riend (Mr. Peel) is in-
finitely more fair and manly.--(Cheers.)—He re-
verts to his former declarations, which I remember
well; in particular those of 1825, when he said that
" he conceived any securities would be insufficient
but the exclusion of the Roman Catholics from seats
in the Legislature 'id from the Councils of the
State." Such, by reference to the reports, which
are, upon the whole, tolerably accurate, I find to
have been his declaration. That, at least, was intel-
ligible. But' even the other speeches, to which allu-
sion has been made, do not contain expresfions that
induce me to entertain such sanguine expectations as
some of my friends do, that we shall see a change of
system with regard to this question. I can only say
that I shall be most glad to find myself mistaken,
and them correct. I do think, however, that
when it is admitted, with the unanimous consent of
every individual, that there is urgent and imminent
danger existing, the suspension of thiS great ques-
tion does seem to me a very extraordinary proceed-

ing. Ido feel that we are entitled to call on the
Government, if not with a view to this particular
debate, for the general information of the public, to
state, whether it is their intention that the law on
this subject shall continue in its present state, or
whether they intend to propose that any alteration
of it should take place ? An answer one way or
the other is due in explanation to the House, and
the time is come when we should call for it. (Cheers.)

Lord ALTHORP agreed in what had fallen from
his Hon. Friend, the Member for Westminster, in
feeling great satisfaction at the more moderate tone
in which this question had been discussed. He
could not also help feeling gratified, that it was aow
unanimously agreed that the state of Ireland Was One
of great danger:, He felt gratified at this admission,
because it was impossible that any persons could
again be trusted with the Government of the country,
who would think it inconsistent with their duty to
saggest some measure for the removal of that danger.
The Right Hon. Gent: (Mr. Peel) had alluded to
the Constitution of the present Government, which
he (Lord Althorp) considered most micensfitu
tional.—(Cheers.)--He thought that an Adthinistra.i.
tion formed Oh the principle of disagreement,tts to the
roost important qnestiOns concerning the interests of
the cOnntry, was a Government which ought not to
have the confidence of the House. He had never
given his confidence to any Administration so
formed, and he never would give it. But before he
resorted to hostile measures, having seen so many
formed on that principle, he would carefully watch
its proceedings.

Sir T. LETHBRIDGE agreed with that part of
the Noble Lord's opinion, as to having an Adminis-
tration divided on the most vital question of the
day. He considered it as the greatest mifortune this
country laboured under. If, of late, he had placed
his confidence in his Majesty's Government, it was
because he considered ft was formed on a united, in-
telligible, and clear principle—(Laughter, and cheers
from the Opposition benches):—lt must be some-
thing other than what he saw that would convince
him of the converse of that proposition, notwith-
standing the cheers from the other side. He really
knew not what forms meant, when arguments were
built, by those who boasted their acquaintance with
the rules of Parliament, on matters which could not
regularly come to the knowledge of the House.
What had happened elsewhere could not be takEn
as a ground of argument in that House. He was
not surprsed to hear the Hon. Member for West-
minster adopt a line of argument consoling to him-
self and those who had supported his proposition.
He (Sir T. Lethbridge) had not seen any thing in
the'manner in which it had been received elsewhere
that looked like a matter of congratulation to the
Hon. Baronet, or those who took the same views.
The resolution was negatived by a majority of 45
a considerable majority. He wished, from the bot-
tom of his heart, that the Catholic Question could
be settled with satisfaction to all parties, those claim-
ing and those refusing. He must also add, that he
did not see that ground of alarm which was pictured
out to them in a way bordering on intimidation,
and which he thought was anything but politic
on the patt.of those who advocated the Catholic
Claims. Besides, it was contradicted by what hap-
pened in Ireland day after day, week after
week, month after month, year after year. He
certainly thought the Meetings of the Roman Ca-
tholic Association in Dublin, where the leaders tit-
tered violent and unconstitutional speeches, ought
to be put down by the Government of that country,
which was, in his opinion, submitting in an unbe-
coming manner to that body. But he was not car-
ried away with the idea that there was any imme-
diate danger. He did not apprehend that Ireland
was about to bp separated from the empire. Argu-
ments of that nature were used purely ad cuptandum,
and ought not to weigh a feather with the Members
of that House. He thought there was only one way
of meeting the difficulties in which they were placed,
and that was by remaining at rest, and by not con-
tinually making speeches upon the subject, for the
purpose of intimidating the opponents of concession.
He was quite ready to admit that there was in the
country, a growing feeling of a description favour-
able to the concession of the Catholic Claims.
(Loud cheering.) He would admit that most de-
cidedly. (Cheers.) He would admit that the
whole question began to be received more favourably.
It was, however, by temperance, and patience, and
calm deliberation, that its advocates must expect to
make further progress; for changes so great as it
must produce were not to be brought about in an in-
stant. He did not mean to say that such a change
was far distant. The time in which it could be ef-
fected might not be long ; but it was absolutely ne-
cessary to the success of such a question that it
should be allowed to make way in the minds of the
people. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. S. RICE, after complimenting the lion.
Baronet (Sir T. Lethbridge) upon the manly course
he had always adopted with regard to the Catholic
Question—at all times undisguised and unflinching,
but, at the same time, a manly opponent—observed,
that the House now, for the first time, heard from
that Hon. Baronet the admission—an admission
frankly given—that the cause of the Catholics was
making progress; and that the Catholics, and the
friends of the Catholics, had, from the mere pro-
gress of opinion, a right to look forward to com-
plete, and not very distant success. He differed,
however, with the Hon. Baronet, as to the means
by which that result'was to be effected. The Hon.
Baronet thinks that the cause of the Catholics is to
be advanced by abstaining from all discussion ; by—
to use his own expression—allowing the matter to
rest ; and; above all, by not making speeches upon
the subject in this Mouse. Now, he must own,
that if the Catholic Question had made any pro-
gress either here or elsewhere, it has been solely by
the means of discussion, and by discussion only could
they ever hope to obtain the accomplishment of their
wishes. There was no powei which could prevail
upon men who felt themselves to be aggrieved, to
be at rest. They might say to them, be peaceful—
be temperate. But they could not say to them,
submit to injustice, when they knew well that there
were constitutional means of giving utterance to
their complaints. He would remind the House of
au instance of the effect of such a course* as that
which the Hon. Baronet recommended. At the
time when his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell)
brought in the Bill for the Repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Peel)
gumentitiphoenan
appealfrom
Dissen-
ters, and contended because they were silent
ln
that therefore they had no grievances.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—He would tell the Catholics, by their
hopes of the future, and from their experience of the
past, to press forward their claims upon all and upon
every occasion. Let them be firm and vigilant, but
tranquil and obedient to the laws of their country,
and their cause must ultimately triumph. The adop-
tion of such a course involved nothing inconsistent.
It was now four years since the Catholic Associa-
tion was declared a separate aad distinct body from
'the Catholic people, pursuing a course of proceeding
hostile to the principles of the Constitution. The
Hon. Baronet had told them in the course of his
speech, that thug conduct of that body was still the
same, yet that no remedy had been adopted 'by his
Majesty's Government. There was no remedy
which ever could be devised for the evils of the Ca-
tholic Association but emancipation. All other ex-
periments • had failed. The Hon. Member then ad-
verted to the suggestions thrown out to the Catho-
lics upon the subject of the securities which they
had to propose in the event of their emancipation.
Now, if any part of his conduct deserved well of his
Catholic fellow-subjects—if any thing coming from
him could be attended to—he would state then,
that they would be thc'most ill-advised people upon
earth, if on any bare and unsupported suggestion
of what might be done in the event of certain cir-
cumstances, they were to go into an abstract conside-
ration of what they would consent to give in the way
of security. He would say to the Catholics, disclaim
the necessity ofany securities—go at all times upon the
broad principle of free and unfettered right to a par-

' ticipation in the adeanteges of the Constitution ;
but let them be at all tit nee ready to receive from
their opponents any siiggestioii non the subject of
the measures which would satisfy thern in the event
of the concession. He would implore the Catholics
to avoid such discussions. It was easy to perplex
and harass the public mind by suggestions of this
description; but he warned them against involvitig
themselves in pledges on abstraet questions, which
may be eventually turned against them, end never
can, by any possibility, be brought to operate ift their
favour. The Hon. Bart. had spoken of intimidation.
Nothing was farther from the intention of the Advo-
cates of Emancipation than any desire to intimidate
the Members of that House. They could not be so
weak es to suppose their opinions were to be in-
fluenced by a sense of persoeal fear; but was there
nothing like the fear which came under the deno-
mination of prudence ? If the Hon: Burt. was about
to go to war, would he not inquire into the nature of
the resources of his enemy, and into the means he
possessed for resistance ? It was from coesidera-
dons of this kind—considerations of prudence, de-
rived from the situation of Ireland, and the necessity
of eteisolidatitig the resources of the Empire, that
they drew the arguments which this Hum Baronet
called intimidation. The Hon. Member coneitided
by declaring that he rejoiced exceedingly in the fate
which had attended their exertions in that House,
and in the advance which they had made in the
other • and that he looked forward to a speedy ac-
complishment of their wishes, as much from the
goodness of their cause as from the good sense of the
Tribunal to which they made their appeal—(Hear.)
Lord MORPETH felt very much disposed to
concur with the Hon. Gentleman below him: (Mr.
S. Rice), and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. C.
Wynn) who preceded him, in not feeling so very
credulous upon the subject of the present situation
of the Catholic Cause. There were however, some
things in the present condition of that question which
gave him hopes of a better termination of the efforts
of the friends of the Catholics. Into the motives of
the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Govern=
men he could not pretend to dive, and therefore it
was not in them tkat he reposed his hopes; but that
Noble Duke entertained a very different opinion
from what he (Lord M.) did of what was due to the
character of a Statesman, if he did not, after the de-
clarations he had made in the debate, feel himself
bound to do something towards the settlement of the
Catholie Claims: (Hear, hear, hear.) If a danger
was admitted by a Statesman to exist, it became ne-
cessary for that .Statesman to endeavour to find a re-
medy ; and he conceived that the Noble Duke could
not so far forget what was due to the character of a
Statesman and a Minister, as to encourage hopes of
relief, and give a pledge of a disposition to re-
lieve without having any intention to redeem that
pledge.--(Hear, hear.) Upon these considerations,
and upon a sense of this virtual pledge--considera-
tions founded upon a sense of the sagacity of the
Noble Duke--he entertained the feeling that another
Session could not elapse without their seeing some-
thing done to set this natter completely at rest.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by obser-
ving, that he thought it a little hard in the Hon. Bart.
(Sir T. Lethbridge), to charge the Members of that
House with making speeches both ad terrorem and
atilt
acta‘pv:tias;
at dnu
artn o
in Ntvi
hich ttillueesHtioortii..
B aArot n eati ihead vents,
:;
set them an example.—(Hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM concurred most cutdially
with those Members who rewarded it as a most se-
rious evil, that the other House had thought fit to
reject that most moderate Resolution which had
been sent up for their approval—a Resolution which
pledged that House to the same course to which
they had pledged themselves,—eamely, to take iate
their consideration the state of the laws affecting the
Roman Catholics. In the rejection of that Resolu-
time he, however, iti opposition as it was to the
opinion of some of his friends, still must say, that
he found great ground for consolation and for' hope.
—( Hear.) He most fairly admitted that he agreed
with the Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) in saying,
that his hope on this occasion was much more lively
than his faith ; but that some comfort and some sa-
tisfaction, as well as hope, was to be found in the
inamier in which the Resolution had been rejected,
no man could have any doubt, who had attended to
the peculiar circumstances and opinions which it
disclosed. The advocates of the Catholics had not
so much to boast in that debate of the co-operation
of zealous allies, as of the admissions of former
adversaries. The tone of all the observations of
their opponents was different. They had no longer
the same intolerant and bigotted spirit to con-
tend with which had resisted all their former
attempts for the same object. All the learned
and legal lumber had been completely thrown
overboard.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) They no
longer heard those things which they had for-
merly' listened to with pain and with sorrow in
avery discussion, In fact, it was now plainly and
distinctly admitted from all quarters, that the ques-
tion of giving relief to the Catholics was a question
of expediency,—(Hear, hear, hear,)—and to be met
' by legislation and not by negociation.—( Hear.)—
There is no longer the same difficulty. They were
not now to go to the Catholics, and say, will you
take this, or are you prepared to accede to that; but
they, the Legislative power, were to make up their
minds, and prepare to carry through such a measure
of relief as they might consider expedient-=regard
being had in the settlement of the rights and privileges
of the other great portions of their fellow-subjects.
They were to legislate according to their own views
of what is fitting to the case, leaving those who
think securities necessary, and those who make ob-
jections upon the score of securities—not those who
deny that securities are necessary—to propose the
terms of the security. They had in this discussion
obtained, too, another admission of great import-
ance, and from a very high authority—they had
heard that the question was involved in danger, and
difficulty, and embarrassment, to such an unparalleled
extent, that no way was to be seen by which
they could get out of their present dangerous
situation. And what is to be the consequence of
this situation ? That the Government are to do
nothing but enjoin the people to be quiet. No
step is to be taken to find a way out of the difficulty.
Those who are charged with lie duty of protecting us,
from danger, and providing for us in difficulty, and
landing us in security and peace in a sheltered haven
—the appointed pilots, who are to carry the vessel
of the State into harbour, are to do nothing. He
grieved to say that, in some quarters, the inference to
be drawn from the arguments was, that where there
appeared .to be much danger and a great deal of
difficulty, to do nothing was the necessary conse-
quence of these dangers, rather than to attempt to
find any means by which they could see their way
through them. Of one thing there was no doubt;
—the question had gained ground, he trusted, even
more than he could yet see in any of the symptoms
of the times. It haul gained much from concession
—much from the progress of opinion; and be hoped
and trusted it had gained more than already ap-
peared; but whatever they had gained, was by per-
severance-- by the unwearied perseverance of its ad-
vocates for the attainment of their objects. To. the
Catholic population he would take the liberty to give
his advice, in the hope that they would deign to
follow it, as they had often done him the honour to
follow it before. He would say to theme--continue
to persevere in pressing your cause upon the atten-
tion of the Legislature—do it in all steadiness, and
with all energy and firmness, but in all peacefulness
--keeping the King's peace—obeying the laws, but
never ceasing to urge your claims by respectful peti-
tions to Parliament. By these means—by the exer-
cise of their constitutional privileges, they must
ultimately gain the full accomplishment of thei
wishes.—( Hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON felt sorry to 'differ from so
many of those Hon. Members who surrounded him
but he -really could not holdout to the Catholics the
encouragement of hopes which, on his honour and
in his conscience, he did not feel.—(Hear, hear,
haul been his lot to hear those expressions
in the other House to which so much importance
was now attached, and to which it might not, per-

haps, be right to refer more particularly. in these
expressions there certainly was a tone which indi-
cated the desire of some satisfactory termination of
the question— a desire which had been repeated in
their House that night by an Hon. Baronet oppo-
site (Sir T. Lethbridge), on all occasions the in-
flexible opponent of the Catholic Claims ; but in
the sequel it appeared that there were difficulties in
the way of that settlement, which were stated al-
mest as strongly as the Hon. Baronet had .stated
them on that evening in the present discussion.
!'tdtn what they had heard on this subject, he might
be allowed tO refer to the expressions which fell
from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr,
Peel), whose opposition to the question liacl,beeo
both steady and consistent. That Right Hour.Cientlemen had said, as distinctly as language could
convey it, that he knew of no irate: tion on the part
of his Majesty's Government to brigg in any Bill
for the relief of the Roman Catholics, but that he,
as the organ of his Majesty's Government—
Mr. PEEL here observed, that lie did not speak
as the organ of his Majesty's Government. The
observations he had made were on his own be2ialf,
as an individual Member of the House, and not ou
the part of the Government.
Lord EBIIINGTON continued :--He meant to
s 4 to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman, as an in-
dividual, the organ of tne Government in that House,
maintained his entire wilier ,:orce to the opinions al-
ready expressed upon the (potion. Now, taking
that declaration in context with t.'"'e vague expres-
sions of the Members of the other- liOuse, he must
repeat, that he, for one, saw no ground (4 hope
to
the Catholics from the late discussion. His. hopes,
he had any, were grounded, not en the speo:lles
in one House or the other, but on the increased id
formation and enlarged intelligence of the people of
this collator; and to them he looked for the accom-
plishment of an object the most desirable, and the
difficulty attendant upon which be trusted his friends-
would not relax in their efforts to surmount. (Hear,
hear.)
Sir F. BURDETT, on the petition being brought
up, said that there was not a shade of difference be-
tween him and his Noble Friend (Lord Ebrington)
who had preceded him ; for whose principles, firm-
ness, and the freedom with which he spoke his sen-
timents, he entertained the greatest respect. Amidst
the darkness which surrounded that country, and the
evils of every kind and description by which it was
besets where—
" No light but darkness visible
Serv'd only to discover sights of woe,
Regions of sorrow, doleful shades, where peace
And rest can never dwell."
He was desirous of putting the most favourable
construction on the declaration of the Noble Duke
at the head of the Government, and was willing to
believe that he would not condemn the Catholics to
the greatest punis...ment which was inflicted 911 those
who, for the greatest crimes, were consigned to the
infernal regions, to whom—in the language of the
Poet which ends this description—
hope never comes that comes to all."

The Hon. Baronet repeated in conclusion, that what:,
ever hope he placed in the expressions of the Noble
Duke, it was less than that which he derived fro►n
the increasing liberality of that House, and of the
country.
Mr. S. RICE brought in a Bill to facilitate the
establishment of Schools for General Instruction in
Ireland.

Sir J. NEWPORT moved for Copies of the
Nlinutes of Evidence taken before the Commissioner 3
appointed to inquire into the charges of milversa,
tion in the Police Establishment of the Leinster
Districts sitting during the last winter in the Castle
of Dublin.—The Motion was agreed to.
►_ _

On the Motion of Mr. 01:(RIEN, who stated
that his object was to mill the attention of Govern-
ment to the expediency of assisting the manufac-
turers of Ireland by a reduction of the duty on coals,
a Return was ordered to be laid before the House of
the total amount of Duty received on Coals itn-
ported into Ireland for the three years ending 3th
Jan., 1820, bat Jan., 1827, and .sth Jan., 1828.