The Sun.
London, England, 1819-12-15 00:00:00

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• übj...cted to the introrluction of ny new lose
11;c1"soold alter the frameswork of the Consols
especially es the one proposed did not
'"Lastly the acknowledged abuses of the exi•tiog
; and this he +bought the House was bound
I'l the first instance to do ;• for these abuses wet e
'ltlt'h as to disgrace the tepresentation. and to
the Constitution into disrepute, and it was
4."'ly by an application of the proper remedy, that
It 'tow could be testored to its original vigour
beauty ; and the consideration of the
of Patliamentary Reform was notch
l'sjirdieed by the Adrocates for Uoiversal
11ee, Amoral Parliaments, and Election by
'•anot ; for as by reference to the most un-
anthori'y, it must appear that those in-
tredicnts were not to be found in the fundamental
)Ir.vtioe of the Conslit/dion, since it assrimed a
.ettletl form, so it must follow that it they be now
=:ratted upon it, the change will ithlOntit to 110-
iltling less than Revolution, for what is Revolution
"' a change or alteration ttom one system or
of Giiverioneto to rum bet ? The only
‘litlrerence would he as to the mode of bringing it
thout, as it would not be eflected by force. The
4Nolde Lord on the other side had eloquently de-
the original structure of tile British Coo.
Ilitntion, and he (Mr. Blake) would add, that that
'structure was to be venerated not only for its ex-
"'knee, but also because it is the approved and
tried work of the experience and wisdom of aceu-
illalated years. The Noble Lord's motion
it' flit wed against bribery roily, and therefore le-
teller! agaitist the lower orders, while the affluent
INubleman is the object of ratticulAr protection—
"e class of voters much inure numerous now
-1" u in former times ; the freehold franchise is
fourfold more extended ; and in this point of view
tl'eConstittvion has gained much. Forty sirilling
tr,eeloulds %vete first created in the reign of Henry
• or VI. yet the number then must have been
oochrybecause it 55144 not till the tirne
t Henry VII. the Barons were empowered
14 alienate their estates, and it ‘‘as Snl),,(lllently
Ui Course, to that time, that their tenants be-
tedlne possessed of treehold property; indeed until
this time, he believed, or near it, the agricultu-
Pgi people were respected little more than the
'"iter movable property belonging to the estate.
gtelt certainly was the case in earlier times, as the
tvotfie r,f Ma via Charla demonstrate. The 11. m.
itintoher bugged pardon ()tthe House for hartog
I,ruspassed at all, especially alier the bilbject had
Leen disposed of by the compromise which had
ihken but he could not consistently with
I's dory to his Constituents give a silent vote.
Lord J. RUSSELL. rose with very great satistac-
ii"u to return his 'hauls' to the Noble Lord, fur
Ills outliner in which be had met the motto!), aod
t" congratulate the House on the result of the
night. lie was ready to confess, that during the
44'“ Session of Parliament he received every as-
sistance from the Noble Lord in the inquiry te-
!Pectiug the cursor:6mi proved to evst in the
Aorough of Gratonound ; and he was also tufty
tvkb own, that to what lie had done thAi oight he
lath gone beyond his ,Lord J. Russell's) expec-.
t4tions. He would not say u single word to tits-
t"th the unanimity of the House, lie understood.
11::e Nohle Laid to consent that a Bill should be
in to disfranchise Glampollnd, and tratis-
vr its two Membeis to some other place ; and lie
4154 understood that where Cornish boroughs
were eonvictrd of Corrupt practices, that they
Byte to he visited with the justice of Parliament
tecording to the merits of the case. Ile had now
'l_l4l}' to say, that oil Thursday be worth! move for
have to filing in a Bill to disfranchise the Bo-
:1'1W' Grampound, and to transfer its elective
"attehise to some great and populous town. He
sliutild prefer tisk to giving it to a county. At
Present he could not Say what town he should
ta'ne. The question was not to be determined
It the population of the town alone. The House
%told(' have to take many other circumstances into
tl'eir consideration when the question came before
eLetn. Ile now begged to withdraw the motion.
• Lord .MILToN did not know that it was trite
11;olar lo speak, after the Noble Lord had asked
leave to withdraw his motion. lie however could
,"1 flirt express his satisfaction at the result of
night, It'ith respect to the Hull to be brought
tit, he thought it might beneficially contain a clause
establishing a class of voters, whose rights had
wreotste obsolete.
Lord CASTLFEE.AGII begged to he understood as
11,1 pledging imostir It, any inode of carrying, the
tt4uster of the electite franchise into effect. He
mimed it to be left open to the House to deal %sit 11
cost according to its merits.
motion was their nit olt
IRELAND.
M: • CALLAGuAN ihov(-(1 fur !rave to bring in
, •
Bills ; the 011 C to Leg/date the Houses of In•
in Ireland, the other to repeal the Irish
Act.

"\ll. L. FOsTFIt opposed the former, as going to
tnirtiduce. the Loglish system of 'POor Laws into
; and, after a felt words from Lord AL-
w. PARNELL., and Mr. C. GRANT, the
vltlntioit was witlidi awn. Leave was given to
the secomi Bill.
tVoup moved fur leave to bring
'rt .10 promote the Treide, 'Manufactories,
"4"I 1 ishel iss of Ireland, by emotiraging Partner-
thi,i.
VLUNKETT reinatked, that this Bill, though
"..41(1 hi he tor the encouragement of the trade,
14.-IttittactoticF, and fisheries of ',eland, did not
t"ntaiti one mild about them. li was, however,
'`"t more remarkable for its omissions than for its
"'nients. 'lite Bill in tact contained some very
"utdordinaly provisions ; it went to sweep away
!:*llOl, Cole of laws, which were at present per-
l'lndersiood, and to which the commerce of
t 4)l*. country bad aciommodated itself, and there-,
eet !bough lie did not oppose the bringing in
iliu Bill, he thought it right to say that he was
""'t threidedly against the measure.
WoOD deteinien it as necessary.
lie eli.+~urre which had arisen under the present
hail driven almost every English capitalist
rt ..1 tie conotty. It the Irish Gentlemen 01)-
el, (t. to his Bill, he would withdraw the motion..
k At" .r few WOlliN 1141111 LutdiocFLYN and Mr.'
li•snts, heave was given to bring in the Bill.
kiN,A.NurAcTuitiNG DISTiZICTS IN SCOTI,AND.
AIAX‘VELL i;aVe tiolice, lilac oil Thursday
`".ld tuo‘e for tilt: appututnieni of a CUU:NIit•

lee 10 ililo the iittite of the iNianuftictu;(4,,,,
llistricts ill SC0(1/11111.

I.IIIEI. BILL.
On the motion of Lord CASTLRREAGH, the se-
cond reading of the Libel Bill Was posEpuned till
to-morrow.

SEIZURE OF ARMS BILL.
Lord CAsTLEtteAGit having moved the Order of
the DaV for goilik..,into ti Committee On (his Bill,

Mr. LAMBTON Stated, that be had received let-
ters, ittiouning him/that pellect tranquillity now
ruigned in the Co:nity of Durham, and that none
of the colliers %rho %vent .to the meetiog were
arturd A Ministerial Paper having the other
day published accounts of n different nature, tin-
der the head of '' State of the Coontry," be had
received by ti!e saute post a letter, assuring him
that. the ;Magistrates of Durham intended to give a
Ituhlic contradiction to that statement. The tran-
quillity of the county not being disturbed, lie
should theretote move that air instruction be given
to the Committee to prevent any of the provisions
of the said Bill from extending to the County of
Durham.

Mr. Powr.writ stated, from authority in which
he could place implicit confidence, though lie was
not authorised to mention the. source to the
House, fiat the 1114;zistrates of that county had
held a meeting at Durham, in which they ILA
come to a resolution, on account of existing
eir-
curnstances, that it was absolutely necessary the
Yeomanry should be put on permanent duty.—
(Heat, hear, hear!)
The motion was then pot and negatived.
iiiticn took a comprehensive view of the
distresses of the people, principally in the county
of Nottinham, and of the traminillity of the peo-
ple under them in that part of the country. Out
of 10,000 frames in that county, 3,171 were at
this moment unemployed, yet there was no proof
that any disturbance had taken place atnon4 the
suffereri. He should therefore move, that the
Committee he instructco not :o extend the pro-
‘' sirens of the Bill to the county :IA city of Nut-
tinghatn.

Lord RANcLIFFE thought it his duty, in justice
to his Constituents, to state, that the most perfect
trangoiliity existed amongst them, thong') their
(listless was so great, that in one parish:bone one
thousand unforturia:e ‘vorkmen could find no em-
ployment. Uuder every of view, he consi-
der:d the present ine,lsores as the most improper
which the House colt adopt, What had been
rite result of similar measin es in Ireland, that
mismanaged country, so blessed by Heaven and so
curred by man ? They had produced nothing
but assassinations, Hie fruits of outraged feelings,
deprived of all other means of eXpre•Sing their
force. Woe his own house attacked by such in-
uderS at; the preseot Bill would create, he should
think he did nut exceed his duty, as a free-born
English subject, it he did resist them.—(Hear,
hear 1)
Mr. DENMAN also contended that there was no
disturbance to justify the extension of the measure
to the (Wilily of Nottingham.
MI. R. AlAtiliN had no dOnht that if the mea-
sure tre,,t by another title, and was called A Hill
for the preset vation of G,tine. few, if any, of the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, would be found to urge
any objection agaiast it.—(Laughter
The motion was then negatived, and the Order
of the Day having been read,
Lord CA.,TLEREACai moved, that the Speaker do
leave the Chair.

1.. I'ROTtiEHOE, in a speech of considerable
length, but which, trout the agitation which pre-
vailed in the liouse, was ithoost entirely inaudi-
ble in the Gallery, was understood to snpputt the
measure on the ground or necessity, as it was ad-
mitted by all parties, and he was convinced him-
self, not by the doeurneots before the House, but
by actual information, that a wide extended con-
spiracy existed to change the Constittition, and
that the people were misled by deeper individuals
themselves, who wished, by a revolution, to rise
above their native oh,curity.
Mr. At ,ON spoke against the principle of the
Bill, as tending to take 'away toe right which
Enelislitnen injured tinder the Constitution, of
keeping arms for the protection Of themselves and
their property. He did not think the papers on
the table tut nished grounds euoneli to sanction
Ministers in giving to a single Magistrate a power
so odious, as that of entering any man's house
by night in search of arins.---(llear.)—With re-
gard to the names of counties in the Bill, as Hon.
Members had oink ttaken to speak to the tran-
quillity of Durban' and Northumberland, he would
nut hesitate 10 give his testimony to the peaceful
conditiots of Yarmouth, which he represented. But
it was not to this Bill alone that he objected, but
to the system of which it was only a part, and
more espccially to the Bills restraining the liberty
of the press. Alter some other remarks, he con-
do:led by sayieg, that in the view he had taken,
he was not influenced by any party feelings ; and
that he would always be ready to do credit
to those who proposed these measures, so soon
as he saw them efficacious in their consequences.
—(I-lean .)
The question was then put and carried, and
the resolved itself into a Committee.
The first clause of the Bill having been read,
Mr. BENIN ET objected to the whole principle
of the Ine.rtstue, and stated that he had opposed
the sante resistance to a similar Bill brought in
by his Majesty's Ministers in 1812. With re•
sped particular clauses, he could not approve
of giving the power of takiug iuformations on
oath and issuing starch warrants to one Justice
of the P6ce alone. All men were aware of the
deplorable effects of a common seizure by day ;
hot how little were they if compared with the
consequences of an assault by night, when a man
and his futnily were in bed ? Would then the
measure be extended to other courvies, and would
his Majesty's Ministers infin4 torture in order to
extort confession ?—(1-tear, hear !)—That would
probably be tile next step, it not necessary
consequence of the first. If arms were not found,
the whole Bill would prove nugatory. And he
was convinced that, under its provisions, few arms
would be found, and that it would turn out to he
an utter failure, except for the purpose of irrita-
tion. He admitted, at the 130111 C time, that his
objections to the measure would be considerably
removed if the power of taking information and
d 10.6 Were g Ven to two ,Aijgivr,Lei

instead of one, and the search for arms contlucd
to the day—(EJear, hear!)—fie concluded by mov-
ing au amendment to that effect.

Lord CASTLEREAGH, in rising, said, the Hon.
Member had very properly looked upon the
clauses, to which he objected, as containiog the
pith vet the Bill itself. In his ;arguments, the
Hon. Member-stated that he opposed this, as he
did the measure of 1812, on the groond that any,
search at all was inconsistent with the liberty
of the subject, fool ,that no consideration of
public safety should . induce Gentlemen of
that House to sacrifice so much private
feeling. lie had also slated that there was no
precedent tor, a measure like this, awl he would
have the House think that it was one
to which there was no analogy in all our
history. • In all this, he (LOrd.o 1 complained of
great want of candour ; for lie 3t.7etned to look
only at one,sole of the question, and to be pet--
!twitted that danger to the subject could not pos-
sibly come from :soy quartet' but from the Magis-
trates. Lie would show, that there were prece-
defies ; and by the way, he would observe, that
the Hon. Gentleman, in desiring that the power
should be given to two Magistrates, in place of
one, admitted that there was some necessity for
the measure.—(Heat !)—Nuw, one word with re-
eard to the novelty of this measure. It was very
singular, that in 1812, seven years ago, a Bill,
much stronger than this, passed the House,
al-
most unanimously, after the fullest investigation
from many able Gentlemen at the other side.—
The present was more guarded ; for, in that, a
power was given to a single Magistrate to enter
a house, by night or day, not Only upon oath,
hot even upon suspicion of arms being concealed
in a house. This was not the only power given
to Magistrates, by that Bill, for they could
also summon persons, to deliver up the evens, and
all this WithOilt evidence unto) oath. He woold
now show, that giving the power to two Magi,-
trates, was to negative the whole Bill ; for, as
they art upon intonnation, it might happen, that
in many cases, the ;flans would be removed before
two Magistrates could be found to act toeether.—
With regard to the search by day, that also would
negative the Bill. For, in disturbed districts, so
organised was the system, that the motion 01 any
constables or military, was uototious to the whole
country. He admitted, that these ineasoles were
strong and odious—(Bear, from the Opposition),
but the temper of the times requite (I them.--
( Hear !)—lt was, however, some ConiolaHoll to
the House to know, that they were not entirely
twel, and that there were precedents for them,
in the time which vita accoonted the best of our
history, when toe Whigs were in charge of the admi-
nistration of the courtly.—(llear !)—lt was said,
that no measure, Ike this. was proposed atter the
Rebellions of 1715 and 1745, but the fact was
otherwise. In the interval of these two periods,
two Bills were passed, and three afterwards, by
which this principle was made still stronger, by
the liThig Administration of the day. The first,
• it would he observed, was not far from the period
of the Bill of Rights, and the measure for disarm-
itig the Highlands of Scotland. It was also said,
that any measure which would be permanent,
would be odious. But was it forgotten, that the
Act Ist of George 1., though .f a local oat ore, was
not temporary,and that it continued in force during
all that reign, and up to the end of George 11. ? The
11 th of Gem ge 1., was made to confirm that, and by
this it was made penal to keep back any arms
Then came the 19th of Geo. 2d, to enforce that
of Geo. Ist, after the Rebellion of 1745, and
which was stronger in its enactments than the
present Bill. Having stated that so severe was
this, that even Members of Parliament and Peers
could not keep arms, he said lie was sorry to hear
Gentlerneo asserting that it was not reconcilable
to any law ; and it was for this reason he had
cited such strong cases as precedents. The worst
humanity was to make the measure ineffectual,
and pain the country without an object. In all
the Lott.; precedents for disarming the Highlands
of Scotland, it was true the right of search was
confined to two Magistrates ; but, subsequently
to 1745, • it Was given to one Magistrate alone.
He did not pretend to say that the measure was
ill the spirit of the Couatittation, as the Seditious
Meetings' Bill and the other measures were ; on
the contrary, he admitted they were against the
people, but that they were called tOr by necessity.
—(Hear !)—General rights were to he secured,
and between two iocouveuiencies it was now a
question of degree.—(Hear, hear !)—According
to precedents, he found that attention should be
paid to general rights, ut the same time he was
not against Conceding to prop.rsitiOOS trOM
Gen-
tlemen at the other side, but to the present
Amendment he could not iu his conscience a4ree.
hear !)
Mr. Littouoti AM Said, it was at least clear from
the admissions of the Noble Lord himself, that he
did not cousider these measures cousoitutional, but
that they were a violation of the laws.—Notwith-
standing this, however, he would not be stoprized
to hear some ultra partizans stand up, and assert
that they were quite in the spirit of the Constitu-
With regard to the auswer giveo by the
Noble Lord to the objections of hi) Hollow.-
able Friend, the Member for Sloewsbury (Mr.
Bennett), he observed, that he argued that be-
cause a law ten times worse than the present was
passed feu or twelve years ago, that therefore the
House should not hesitate now. When it was said
at this side, that A single... Justice spoof) not be en-
trusted with the powers'under this 11 11, the Noble
Lortl answer s, that by the law of 1812, a JUstice
could not only enter a house mid seize tome, hot
that also without having evidence upon oath.—
But how far were Gentlemen at this side bound
by that Act ? He contended that it could only
bind those who then supporter) it. The Noble
Lord had said, that if search was made for arms
in the day-time, there would be to; opportunity
for removing them; but he would ask, was not the
very passing of the Bill notice enough to the
possessors of them to conceal them ? After some
more observations he ploceeded to say, that the
precedent of the Acts for disarming the Highlands
of Scotland was not applicable to the ',resew case,
Scotland was then in a state of open rebellion, the
succession to the Throne was disputed, and ooe
of the first Peers of the realm thlow•n into the
Tower for high treason. Where was the analogy
be:tweet' that time awl this.--licit lie bri;ged par

t'on of the House, we were given to understand,
that tocne was at this moment a rebellion -on the
point of breaking out in the country. The day of
rising even was fixed ; first it was Tbursday, then
Sunday, and lately a great alarm was raised became
it was chalked on several places in this metropo-
lis, " Remember the ytit of December," which.,
after all, only turned out to he the day of drawing
the lottery—(A laugh !)—With reg:ird to the re-
sults of these severe measures in suppressing the
rebellion in Scot:nu:4, he had never been able
tri learn that they at all conduce(' to it; on the
contrary, they bled a spirit of irritation which
produced another rebellion, and it was not mild
Ihe conciliating and wise measures of. Lord Chat-
ham that Scotland was put in such a Condition
that the rebellion of 1745 was the last in thzic
,cduntry. lie ,vnold rather see Ministers take a
lesson from the tifecis of that rebellion, and bz
governed in their conduct by it. than by takin4
advantage of it to justify their conduct io these
meastites. It was all iuvariablemaxim in Engitsn
law, that every man's house was his castle ; and
it was not only his castle against an inn oder anti
a midnight assassin, but it was so iii a higher
and a political sense ; and' every man was always
allowed to have at in his house for his own
defence, which he might even turn a‘t.tinst his
rulers, if they broke the law and constitution
ot the conntly.—(ilear, hear f.)—Far be it trout
bin to preach up the 'doctrine of 'resistance, lie
merely stated what seas laid down by the besc
lawyers, and among others it was declared by
Judge Blackstone, that men had a right to keel)
arms for their defence. His principle was thils-
that 110 set on the part ot the rulers ot a country,
should give a right to the subjects to talk of re-
sistance, it any alteration was intended to be
male ifs the laws by the Parlianient ; and such
attacks on the part of the people, be would resist
with as n,uch zeal as lie would resist the
attacks 01 the Crown against the tights of fire
people. He conceived that this doctrine tended
as much to the safety of the Crown, as it %%as
hostile to Lad rukrs.

Air. CANNING Said, he was ready to admit the
doctrine of a right to carry arms in case of iota-
gOraly resistance ; but it he quarrelled with this
doctrine, it was not with its piinciple, but the
occasion on which it was to be applied ; and lie
believed that more danger was likely io mite
from mooring this qitestioa than any advantage
likely to ai kis flow the possible seem ity it might
give to ilia Constiintion. There was 110 abstract
right on the part of the people in anyconntry which
might not be constrained on the exigency of the
case, by the ruling authorities. In support of
this position, he would refer to the Bill of Rights,
in which it was generally laid down, that, at-
though the people of the country were allowed
to have arms for their defence, the permission
was granted only to Pi ot eat ant subjects, and
Catholics were not allowed the use of arms. His
object in stating this was. not to throw out any
reflection against Catholics, but to show that the
very law so much boasted of, was nor passed with-
out some qualification, and if that law still ex-
isted, no small part of the population would be
excluded troin the right in tpiestion. 'Phis part of
the Bill of Bights was not levelled at the Catholic
religion, but against those whose religion at that
time was held to be a symptom of disaffection
It was clear, however, that the general right
allowed to the people to have arms, was qualified
so tar as related to disaffected persons. He should
therefore appeal to the Bill of Rights itself, in
support of the measure then before the House;
because that Bill made an exception with regatal
to those who could not have dlllll5 without dan-
ger to the Country. The same principle applied
to the present rase ; for it was merely proposed
to take arms from chose who were likely to make
a dangerous use of them. It was to be presumed
that those who were learning the m;litary exercise
at midnight, and appeared in military array, had
some weapons which they might use ; and it was
agreed on all sides that weapons were to tie ;alien
from such persons. Ott the subject of this Bill
two species of attacks were made ; one was
against the principle 01 the Bill, the other was,
that it was unpleccdented. Now he could show
that it had been copied from the 811 of
Rights, and when Gentlemen on the other
side found they could not sustain that point,
they said the measure was bad in itself,—
Here the Right Honourable Gentleman read a
paper (signed by some respectable names) which
he said was a most impudent assertion—(tie al.
hided to a protest against the present 11111).—To
this extraordinary paper some very great [lames
were pat, and the doing that was such a seanda-
bun magnatum, that no one knew what to think of
it ; for it the party u siting that article had read
Swollen's Coininnation, they must know the
facts stated in that publication were false.—
The NViiigs, who trained the Bill of Rights,
had passed an Act for taking how the High-
lawless the amts which they carried ; and in
1726, the 11th of George I. another Act, confir-
matory Of this, was passed, inflicting heavy
penalties on those carrying arms, and concealing
: and the Hun. Gentleman would he shocked
whet) he found, that even on women, a penalty of
two years unpriaonment was inflicted. Another
Bill, confirmatory of the same, was passed in the
19 h of Gros ii , in which- it was declared, that
new provisiohs and penalties were required to put
the measures still more tigidlyain force; and io
the year 1759 theae Acta were renewed again,tvhile
Lord Chatham was cashing dowit the. Iliahlandera
to fight the battles of then country. Tlie PelialAcas
were, by this last Act, declared to have brew useful
and beneficial : than the Whigs went out of power,
and the Acts atterwattls expired. So it appeared
that dining tire whole of the Whig administration,
am! 01,16 it pleased God 10 put an end to their
power, •these severe acts were constantly kept
in force.—(Loud cries of hear, hear !)-.--He thd
tot nrean to state this as a justification of the pre-
sent Bid, but he did so with a slew of rebelling
the imputation ilirown• out against those whit
were hostile to the Whigs. By all those Acts
one Magistrate could grant warral,ts x‘ith.,ut
informu:ion on oath, and there was no right
of appeal : but in the peseta Bill [bete must be
information out oath, and there was an appeal to
the Sessions. So much for the assertion of hav-
ing now iairodueed Acts of unprecedahted seve-
Illy 1 And the Hon. Cianflemsn could not taunt