The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 21.
ROYAL ASSENT.

The Royal Assent was given to-day, at a quarter before Ire
o'clock, by Commission, to no less than ninety-three Bills,
among which were—the Assessed Taxes Composition Bill,
Sir Henry Pottinger's Annuity Bill, the Timber Ships Bill,
Bankruptcy Declaration Bill, West India Islands Relief Bill,
Seal-office Abolitionß ill, Public Museums Bill, Scientific and Li-
terary Societies Bill, Canal Companies Carriers Bill, Dog Stealing
Bill, the Infeftment (Scotland) Bill, Banking (Scotland) Bill,
Statute Labour ( Scotland) Bill, Arrestment of Wages ( Scot-
land ) ( No. 2) Bill, Schoolmasters ( Scotland) Bill, Banking (Ire-
land) Bill, Constables Public Works (Ireland) Bill, Glossop Gas
Bill, the Glasgow Bridges Bill, the Totnes Markets and
Waterworks (No. 2) Bill, the Wolverhampton Waterworks Bill,
the Lyme Regis Improvement Market and Waterworks
Bill, the Dundee Waterworks Bill, the Blackburn
Waterworks Bill, the Hartlepool Pier and Port Bill,
the Kendal Reservoirs Bill, the Manchester Improvement
Bill, the Chelsea Improvement Bill, the Belfast Improve-
ment Bill, the Agricultural and Commercial Bank
of Ireland Bill, the Quinborowe Borough Bill, the Forth
and Clyde Navigation and Union Canal Junction (No. 2) Bill,
the Manchester Court of Record Bill, the Reversionary In-
terest Society (No. 2) Bill, the Kevingham Drainage Bill,
the Shepley Lane Head and Bansley Road Bill, the Har-
well and Streatley Road Bill, the Winwick Rectory Bill, Lady
Sandys' (Turner's) Estate Bill, the Kidwelly Inclosure Bill,
and the following Railway Bills:
Railway Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) (No. 2),
London and Greenwich,
Belfast and Ballymena,
North British,
Lancaster and Carlisle,
York and North Midland (Harrogate Branch),
North Woolwich,
Guildford Junction,
Waterford and Kilkenny,
Exeter and Crediton,
Bridgewater Navigation and Railway,
Sheffield and Rotherham,
Edinburgh and Glasgow,
Newcastle and Darlington (Brandling Junction),
Southampton and Dorchester,
Eastern Union,
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr ( Cumneck Branch),
Dundalk and Enniskillen,
Eastern Union ( Bury St. Edmunds) (No. 2),
Londonderry and Enniskillin,
Chester and Birkenhead Extension,
Whitehaven and Furness Junction,
Manchester, Bury, and Rossendale,
Great North of England and Richmond,
Blackburn and Preston,
Leeds and Thirsk,
Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Manchester,
North Wales,
Taw Vale Railway,
Manchester and Birmingham ( Ashton branch),
Ashton. Staly bridge, and Liverpool Junction ( Ardw ick and
Guide-bridge branches),
Eastern Counties (Ely and Whittlesea Deviation),
Manchester South Junction and Altrincham,
Trent Valley,
London and Brighton (Horsham Branch),
Ulster Extension,
North Wales Mineral,
North Union and Ribble Navigation Branch,
St. Helen's Canal and Railway,
Great North of England (Clarence and Hartlepool Junction),
Great Western (Ireland):(Dublin to Mullingar and Athlone),
Cockermouth and Workington,
Richmond ( Surrey),
Cork and Bandon,
Liverpool and Manchester,
Great Southern and Western (Ireland),
Preston and Wyre,
L) nn and Dereham,
Middlesborough and Redcar,
Dublin and Drogheda,
Newry and Enniskillen,
Dublin and Belfast Junction, with a branch to Kells,
Waterford and Limerick.
The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of
Iluccleuch, and Lord Wharnclige.

Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills.
THE PENINSULAR ARMY.

The Duke of RICHMOND begged leave to present a peti-
tion from the veteran officers in the Peninsular campaign, request-
ing their Lordships to recommend to her Maj sty such rew.,rds
as they might think proper. The petitioners said they would
not trouble them with the details of their services—the thanks
of both Houses had been often voted to the army in which they
served, and which was the best proof of the high nature of their
services. The walls of Parliament had often echoed with
most melancholy forebodings that the British army would be
obliged to fly to their ships for refuge, and that they would be
forced to return to their native land, defeated and disgrac. d.
But the transcendent abilities of his Noble Friend (the Duke
of Wellington) had averted that great calamity, and the Penin-
sula was freed and the flag of England was planted on the soil
of France. Every man must admit the claim of those brace
officers. How gallantly they opposed the victorious legions
of Napoleon—men brought up and educated in war. He did
not say that even the refusal of the prayer of the petition
would have any effect on the British army, for they would ever
feel bound to maintain the honour of their Sovereign. The
natural bravery of the soldiers, their enthusiasm, and the esprit
du corps which existed among them—the feeling that each in-
dividual had, that upon the success of his own personal exer-
tions depended the fate of the day—would always make the
soldiers do their duty. But he asked, as an act of duty—as the
payment of a debt of gratitude—the granting of the claim
which the petitioners sought. He concurred with those
petitioners ; but, at the same time, he must say that
he had no wish to impute blame to any one, still less to his
Noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington) whom he had always
regarded with feelings of admiration and respect. He blamed
not those who had conferred medals on the brave men of
Waterloo, nor on those who had fought in China and India,
but he asked was it right that.these brave men whom he repre-
sented should be left with no other marks of glory than their
wounds ? Why should not these soldiers receive equal com-
pensation? He felt personally complimented by those brave
men having placed their petition in his hands, and hoped their
Lordships would think fit to grant its prayer.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the petitioners had done
him but justice in stating that he had never mentioned the war
in the Peninsula except in praise of the conduct of the officers
who served in it ; but, with all respect, he did not think either
House of Parliament could properly interfere in a case of this
description. Some years had now elapsed since these same
petitioners had made an application to him—it was
in the year 1840, and upon precisely similar grounds.
He then stated to these officers the position in
which he stood towards them and towards the Government
for a considerable number of years. He stated to them, that
for several years he had reported to the Government their
conduct as members of the Peninsular army, and that their
conduct had been brought under the notice of their Sovereign.
He further stated on that occasion that rewards to the army
was not a subject in which he could interfere. These were
acts for the Sovereign and for the advisers of the Sovereign,
and did not come into his province. He recommended to these
gentlemen at that time to make their application at the proper
quarter, but upon inquiry upon the present occasion he found
they had not done so. Nearly the whole British army served
in that war. The two Houses of Parliament returned their
) thanks to that army, as it had served in no less than sixteen
distinct engagements. Medals were struck in commemoration
of distinguished actions in the Peninsula on no less than
nineteen different occasions,and were distributed to no fewer than
1,300 officers. A new system of promotion was now instituted by
means of special brevets, as a reward to those officers who had
particularly distinguished themselves. Officers of inferior
brevet rank were allowed to retire on superior rank, and to re-
ceive the pay and allowances attached to those ranks. These
were solid boons conferred by the public on these individuals.
There were among the Noble Lords present, no less than seven
Noble Lords who had been promoted to the Peerage for distin-
guished military services, rendered either by themselves or
their fathers, or grandfathers, and not less than 400 Orders of
the Bath had been conferred on officers serving in the Penin-
sular army, being very nearly one-half of the whole num-
ber. The late Sovereign had been pleased to confer a medal
on every individual who served in the battle of Waterloo,
which honour had not been conferred before. The battle of
Waterloo was attended with circumstances of a peculiar nature.
Its issue was peace, after a war that had been waged for
upwards of a quarter of a century, and the natural expecte-
, tion was that war would henceforward be at an end.
The distinction of the Order of the Bath was originally con-
ferred on the Peninsular army, but lately it had been extended
to other armies and especially to the last Indian armies. This
was the history of the grant of this medal—it was for the good
conduct of the troops, and granted in order to induce activity
and good soldiership in the army. Its benefits had been found
in the Indian campaigns and also in the late war in China.
The British army had been engaged in fortified rivers and
against fortified forts in operation against a numerous and in-
telligent people. They suffered greatly, not only from the
dangers of actual warfare, but also from the fa4ignes of march-
ing and the scorching heat of the climate. The troops were suc-
cessful—successful at all points, and the result had been the en-
tering into a negotiation which would lay the foundation of a
lasting peace with that great and important country. The be-
nefits that might be expected to arise from the treaty between
this country and China were incalculable. He spoke to their
Lordships of the army in the Peninsula, not as an unfavoured,
but a distinguished and well-rewarded army. But while they
remembered the deeds performed in the Peninsula they must
remember that other expeditions were equally renowned ; let
them' but call to mind Egypt and Calabria, and say,
equallyer deservingenotth of rewards effi ocerrseanrgdasgr And he
i in those glorious campaigns
must not forget the
fleet, while entertaining the question of the merits of the army:
the fleet of Great Britain had maintained its glory fully as emi-
nently as the army, and yet a general medal was never dissemi-
nated among the fleet. Yet, there Lad been great naval vic-
tories—there were the actions of the First of June, of Cape St.
Vincent, and the Nile, but did ever any one hear of medals
being granted for those illustrious affairs? While, therefore,
such obstacles presented themselves to the prayer of the present
petition, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRYsaid that the House and
the entire country must feel that the admirable speech of the
Noble Duke who had preceded him, was an unanswerable reply
to the petition laid on the table by the Noble Lord opposite ;
anything, therefore, he could add woald be only superfluous.
Nevertheless, he was desirous of expressing his opinion of the
practice of officers asking for decorations by peti-
tion—in one word, he would say that he considered it
unworthy the character of British officers.—( Hear, hear.)
Officers ought to trust to the Crown for their rewards, the
House ought never to interfere. He looked upon the decora-
tions worn by officers with far greater respect when they were
conferred by the Sovereign, on the recommendation of the
Commander-in-Chief. British officers did themselves little
honour by supplicating for honours to which they considered
they were entitled. Would any of the officers engaged in
the victories in the Peninsula have petitioned for such a boon
as that now sought? He never regretted anything so much
as when he heard that these officers were going to petition that
House to award them medals for their services—the more so
when the petition came from the hands of the Noble Duke. He
maintained that it would be unconstitetional to grant the
prayer of the petition ; and if it were granted, the officers,
when they grew old, and sat by their fire-sides, could not but
look upon them as not spontaneously granted by their country,
but at their supplication.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM held that the petition was
was
sd
someshed
theirmost
bloodr e s pe eitof respectfullye ws
eorrydieede .
of All
theirth eesoeo
o t
ry individuals,asked
fworh,o
memorial that they had done their country service in the six-
teen engagements in question. He demanded nothing more
than tht the decoration which they sought might be awarded
them ; they sought no other reward. Their Lordships must
surely think that many of these officers felt cause for not re-
maining in the station in which they now were. He was
sure that there was not one of those who signed the petition
who would not wish that every officer who fought in Egypt

should have a dosoration.:He felt that he had a right to ex.
press his opinion with respect to the petition, and would
conclude by moving that it should lie on the table..

DERRY AND COLERAINE RAILWAY.
The Earl of WICKLOW presented six petitions in favour
of the Derry and Coleraine Railway Bill.

IRISH COLLEGES BILL.

Lord CREMORNE presented a petition, signed by 9,000 of
the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Cork, against the Irish Col-
leges Bill. He would at the same time take the opportunity of
stating to their Lordships that his opinion was entirely in
avour of that measure.

Lord ELDON presented a petition from the University of
Oxford against the Colleges (Ireland Bill).
Lord STANLEY presented four petitions, one from 13 pro•
fessors of the Belfast Academical Institution ; one from the
managers of the same institution, signed by the secretary on
their behalf ; one from the Literary and Scientific Institution,
and another from the inhabitants of the same city, generally.
Lord STANLEY, in rising to move the second reading of
the Bill for the establishment of provincial colleges in Ireland,
said, that he need net remind their Lordships that her Ma-
jesty, on delivering her speech at the opening of Parliament
this session, recommended that the promotion and encourage-
ment of education in Ireland should form a prominent feature
of their consideration. In accordance with that gracious re-
quest he now had to lay before the House a Bill founded on
principles of liberality towards Ireland, and with prospects of
leading to infinite benefits. It was a measure which, brought
forward with the best intentions of her Majesty's Government,
had been received in the Lower House with support, if not
cordiality, and if not passed with unanimity was at least agreed
to by a great majority. In the course that had been pursued
by Governments for the last half century in granting a liberal
education to the country one great omission had been made.
While the means of instruction were liberally accorded to the
highest and the very lowest ranks, that class which re-
quired it chiefly had been overlooked—he alluded
to the middle class. In using that term " middle class," he
meant that class just below the highest, and just above the
lowest class. But while the opportunities for education had
. been but tardily and narrowly extended to the middling
classes of the entire kingdom, if there were one part where
such education was more necessary than in another, it was in
Ireland. There the discordant elements of conflicting creeds,
national prejudices, and political acerbities, rendered a system
of united education more especially necessary, and yet, with
the exception of the Belfast Institution, there was no esta-
blishment whatever but Trinity College, Dublin, where mem-
bers of both religions, Catholic and Protestant, could be edu-
cated together. And although in Trinity College there were
at present, he was happy to say, more than one hundred
Roman Catholics receiving education on the kindliest
terms with their fellow students of the antagonistic
creed, yet the establishment was an exclusive—he would not
use the term " sectarian" institution. It was for the pur-
pose of supplying this deficiency, of remedying the evil ales
likely to increase, that the present measure had been introduced.
' And he was sorry to observe that a petition had been just pre-
ented by a Noble Lord near him (Lord Eldon) from several
members of the University of Oxford, deprecatory of the pro-
, osed measure, and urging that the old system, as originally
a dopted in the English Universities, should be applied to all
a cademical institutions, and never departed from.—( Hear;
tear.) Such a proposition might be very suitable to a
ountry where no religious institutions existed, but was
wholly incompatible with a policy for conciliating animosities
and cementing religious differences. He was aware that a sys-
tem involving the principle of endowing the Roman Catholic
Church (for he was ready fully and frankly to declare his adop-
tion of that alternative) he was aware that such a system met
the disapprobation of many whose opinions and even prejudices
should be respected. He ( Lord Stanley) was willing to admit
that science should be the handmaid of religion, and while he
deprecated the extension of that apothegm to every instance,
such as of followers ofdistinctive religionsassembled for instruc-
tion in one institution, he was not favourable to the proposition
of some, that the doors of an exclusive establishment should be
thrown open alike for all persuasions. Thus, it had been suggested
as a remedy for the present deficiency in educational opportuni-
ties in Ireland, that Trinity College, Dublin, should be free
to all denominations, even to the admission to its corporate
rights. And here he wished to do an act of justice to an
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, from whose political
principles he almost invariably dissented. In the year 1825,
Mr. O'Connell stated, in evidence before a Committee of
that House, that he deprecated, as an act of gross injustice, the
diversion of the funds of 'Trinity College, Dublin, to the
Roman Catholics ? The effect of such a system would be, not
only acerbity between the three novel and the one existing
college, but a spirit of individuality, if he might so express him-
self, would spring up and induce the Presbyterians to fre-
quent the Presbyterian College, the Protestant the Pro-
testant, and the Roman Catholic the Roman Catho-
lic, for the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion,
or other extraneous requirements. In that opinion he
(Lord Stanley) cordially concurred, but, on the rejection of
such a proposition, how could they devise a satisfactory substi-
tute? Would they establish in Dublin three colleges,
one for Presbyterians, one for the Church of England, or
Episcopalians, and another for the Roman Catholics ?
At the period when the Irish Education scheme was first
mooted, in 1821, there was a proviso that all persons should be
compelled to attend the services of their respective churches
every Sunday. That clause was, however, subsequently struck
out, •because the Members of the Church of England and of
the Presbyterian denomination said it would be a sin to recom-
mend persons of the Roman Catholic persuasion to attend their
church. Would that tend to do away with the charge of pro-
selytism and of unsettling the minds of the young men in their
colleges? Would it be likely to tend to reconcile the good feel-
ings of persons of different religious persuasions, by introduc-
ing a system which would have a tendency to proselytism ? He
would never consent that such a system should be introduced.
He wished to speak with all respect of the memorial presented
by a Noble Lord front the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland.
He agreed with the Noble Lord that the House was bound to
look to the weight of argument contained in the objections of
the memorial. He did pot think that the House was bound to
yield to them. Was the faith of the Roman Catholic student
in danger when he should ba called upon to attend a lecture on
anatomy ? Some more stringent objection was necessary. It
seemed perfectly reasonable to him that the 'State should pos-
sess the power of appointing the president and vice-president of
these colleges, and should also have the power of appointing
the professors. Nor did he believe that there would be the
smallest danger that the Crown would abstain from ap-
pointing persons to hold the office of professors who,
whatever creed they might belong to, if competent
to fulfil their duties, would be passed 'over on account
of their religious persuasion. He shouldfegret to see the ap-
pointment of professors other than those whom the Crown
should provide. He thought, also, that the Crown should
possess the power of discharging them ttom their situations.
He did not think it would be wise to establish any religious
distinctions within the walls, or to insist on the
establishment of any theological institutions. He considered,
however, that it was the bounden duty of the State to afford
every possible facility for the religious education of youth.
The system of education which would be promoted in :these
colleges would be the Tutorian system. He had heard it urged
against this system of education, that the young men would be
taken from under the eye of their parents, and scattered over
the town where the college was situated, and taken from the
care of their tutors. It was not wise policy, however, to bring
up young men in monastic seclusion for several years, and then
to turn them loose at once, exposed toall the temptations of the
world. Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast,
and Dublin were all populous towns. He did not think that
there was such an absolute security for that purity of
morals, which showed either Oxford or Cambridge
a model for imitation. The proposed colleges were to
be placed in great towns, and there existed many reasons for so
doing, and whether the young men were confined, as at Oxford
and Cambridge, or were let loose, as at other colleges, rely
upon it no greater control would be obtained over the morals
of the young men. Those institutions were intended merely for
the middle classes of the State—a very large portion of those
who would send their sons to these institutions were residents
within the town. The advantage of an academical education,
with the blessing of parental superintendence, would be simul-
taneously obtained. None of the professors within the colleges
were to reside within the walls. He would inquire, then, what
would be more natural than that the professors living in the
town should open houses, where the pupils from the country
might be sent to reside. The professors would afford them all
the advantages of domestic supervision. The religious educa-
tion of the young men would be amply provided for by the ap-
pointment of persons duly qualified to instruct them in their dif-
ferent religious principles. When the different feelings of the
community, with respect to the Protestant and Roman Catholic
religion, was roused, within a short time the means for the en-
dowraent of religious teachers would be amply provided, without
in the slightest degree interfering with the duties of the
students. Every facility, consistent with sound policy, had
been provided for the establishment of religious education.
The parties who endowed the religious establishments might
make their own provisions, to a certain extent, and the students
although possessing diversified religious opinions would bane
the same opportunities as others of earning the rewards and
competing for the honours as the other students.—( Hear,
hear;) He had stated the grounds on which it was
objectionable to have religious institutions in colleges.
Every facility had been afforded for the religious education of
the youth. In a country in which it was impossible to educate
according to the principles of many religious creeds, divided
into a number of religious denominations, he entreated the
House to take the only course by which they could ensure the
advantages of secular education. He had that faith in the
feelings of both Protestants and Catholics, that he was sure
they, from their private sources, would not fail
to provide for the instruction of their youth in
those different religions for which it was impossible the
State could provide. He was satisfied that if the Bill were re-
jected, their refusal would operate with the most disastrous
consequenees. The advantages which would be provided for
generations yet unborn, by institutions liberally endowed from
the funds of the nation at large, were incalculable. The inesti-
mable advantage of an education at once literary, scientific,
moral, and religious he might also add, would by the proposed
measure be secured to all 1 reland.

The Earl of SHREWSBURY was of opinion that the
measure before the House had been properly described, when
it had been termed " a gigantic scheme of Godless education."
They had gained a victory once over fanaticism and blind pre-
judice, yet by some strange fatality they were now about to
abandon the principle for which they so long contended. The
people of Ireland asked why were they Christians to be edu-
cated like heathens, without the knowledge of God, and the
Government answered them, because we are the vassals of the
Protestants of England, who declare that your religion is super-
stitious, and your worship idolatrous. Was this a safe answer
to give to the people of Ireland, and was this the way to treat
people whom they were so anxious to conciliate? Surely the
Government would not argue thus. But yet the Government,
the strong Government, which, in spite of prejudice and
fanaticism had carried the Maynooth Bill, now yielded to
this unworthy opposition, and forced this Godless educa-
tional system on the people of Ireland. It was a
mere mockery to talk of the Irish being able to
provide religious instruction for the pupils in those colleges.
The poor Irish had already so many calls upon them, that they
were not at all able to meet any new ones; they had to main-
tain their priests, and to build suitable edifices for the celebra-
tion of their religious worship, and, considering their poverty,
and all the claims upon them, it was wonderful how they did so
much. In short, it was impossible they could supply the large
resources necessary to carry out the scheme: Before they were
in a condition to furnish those funds, generation after genera-
tion would have passed away, and they would have experienced
all the evils of this most miserable and defective system of edu-
cation. The Government had thought proper to provide a re-
ligions education for early youth, was it less necessary for early
manhood, when the passions were getting strong and required
the restraint of religion—when the reason was beginning to
develop itself, and was most inquisitive and frequently most
sceptical in faith, and if not instructed would readily yield to scep-
ticism? It had been said that this measure was devised to pro-
testantise Ireland—be disbelieved the allegation, and thought
th 3 Government was actuated by more unworthy motives. The
Noble Earl then alluded to the strong and unjust prejudices
which prevailed among the people of England against the Ca-
tholic religion, which they designated as idolatrous and vicious.
And how could this be otherwise, when their ministers, their
spiritual teachers, their guardians, preached such canting non-
sense as was spoken by the Rev. Mr. Alford, the incumbent of
Rugby ? The Noble Earl then read passages from a report
of the sermon of this person at the Church of St.
Matthew the Evangelist before a large; congregation, just
previous to the third reading of the Maynooth Bill. The
preacher described the Catholic religion as idolatrous, as vicious
in morals, and politically wicked ; he said, murder was sanc-
tioned by its tenets ; that perjury was countenanced, and that
idolatry was enjoined; and, in order to prove the truth of what

be said, he quoted the creed of Pope Pius the Fourth. But
what did he do? He interpolated: the text in the most gross
and shameful manner, and added many words, upon which his
argument depended, and without which his argument would
have no foundation. He would not trouble the House with
these things, but the Roman Catholics had been so often
accused of crimes and misdemeanours, arising from their creed,
that he thought it right to rebut them. The Noble Earl then
read again from the sermon of Mr. Alford, which the congrega-
tion, in admiration of its ability, begged might be priated
and published. He there quoted the creed of Pope Pius, show-
ing clearly that the word worship had been interpolated. The
Noble Lord also read from the Catechism of the Council of
Trent, showing that, so far from Roman Catholics being enjoined
to worship idols, they were enjoined not to give any creature
the honour which only belonged to God ; and pastors
were commanded by the Council to instruct their flocks to this
effect. Images were only countenanced because they created a
more lively impression on the mind, and that the sufferings of
Christ, and the exemplary conduct of the saints might be
brought more vividly before the understanding. By this
Council it was expressly commanded that saints were only to
be invoked so that they might intercede with the Almighty by
their prayers, and surely ne Christian could feel dissatisfied at
the practice of bringing the exemplary lives of the saints and
fathers of the Catholic Church constantly under the notice of
the faithful.

Lord KENYON interfered, and said it was irregular, and
contrary to the rules of their Lordships' House, to read a sermon
there which had been delivered elsewhere.
The LORD CHANCELLOR desired the Noble Earl to
proceed.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY proceeded. There was not
one point of evidence to bear out the assertion of the Noble
Duke. The Noble Earl was proceeding to address their
Lordships with respect to the question of superstition and ido-
latry, when

Lord BROUGHAM interrupted him by saying, Really I
begin to agree with the Noble Lord on the cress benches.
There must be some limit to our debates. The Noble Earl is
going into questions which have no reference to the debate
before us.

The Earl of SHREWSBURY said when he heard the
Noble Lord opposite speak as he did with respect to the mea-
sure, he could not avoid occupying their time at the length he
had done. But would the Noble Lord (Brougham) promise
never to introduce anything that was irrelevant ?—( Laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM would promise not to go into that
which had no relation to the subject before their Lordships,
namely, a defence of the Roman Catholics, in a debate
having reference simply to education.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Noble Lord had
better proceed.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY then resumed, and promised
that he should not detain their Lordships at much greater
length. He held that he was simply giving utterance to the
opinions which prevailed in Ireland. He hoped that they would
make a careful and searching inquiry, and not allow them-
selves to be carried away by popular declamation into measures
which could not fail to lead to the injury of the country to
which the measure before them referred. He called upon the
Government not to act as a vascillating Government, but as
anxious to serve and promote the interest of the country in
every way in their power. As a proof of their sincerity, he
wished they would withdraw the Bill intended to be applied to
an unfortunate country, and bring forward in its place a mea-
sure which would meet with the wants, and which would not
outrage the feelings of the majority of the people of Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM had no intention of treating the Noble
Earl with disrespect, but he conceived that he had fallen into
error with respect_to the views he had taken. There was no-
thing so vexatious, and he often heard arguments carried out
to a great length, as a speech of the greatest ability where the
talents of the excellent speaker only win him on his way away
from the question. It was the greatest of afflictions
to have an able speaker turning his back upon the question,
and dragging on his arguments far away from the question
uader consideration. It was under that impression that he
(Lord Brougham) interrupted the Noble Lord. What con-
nexion could there be between the abstract merits of the
Catholic religion and the question before them ? It looked as
if there were to be professors against the Roman Catholic
religion to discountenance Popery and to denounce the religion.
The Noble Earl (the Earl of Shrewsbury) took occasion to
pass very high eulogiums upon the Roman Catholic religion,
forgetting that either this or the other House of Parliament
were the very last places where one should enter into a dis-
cussion upon the merits of any religion—:a matter
for which a man had only to answer for to his
Maker. A discussion between Catholicism and Pro-
testantism was very far beside the question before
them. • They were, however, to have a discussion on this mea-
sure, to-night, because there was a protest on the minutes,
which the Noble Earl thought it his duty to answer, and to try
to prove that this measure was quite distinct from the May-
nooth question, which many supported who thought fit to oppose
this measure. The Noble Earl said that he spoke against the
Roman Catholic religion ; he (Lord Brougham) had supported
the Maynooth question, but was he at the same time to set
aside any portion of his own religious belief? He rejected the
Roman Catholic religion on account of its immoral tendency—
he would not say its immoral results. He held this to be one
of the greatest measures in its apparently beneficial cease-
quences, that ever had been brought before the Parliament of
the United Kingdom. To be told that the Roman
Catholic clergy were against it was absurd. If
all the Roman Catholic clergy and laity, and all the
Protestant clergy and laity were gainst it, he would
not the less support the views which were taken by those
who introduced this measure. He did not support this mea-
sure a bit the more, because the Roman Catholic clergy had
thought fit unfortunately to withdraw their support from it.
fie was not one of those who thought that they were never to
promulgate education, without connecting religion with it.
He not only supported this doctrine in Ireland, but also in
England.—( Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the children
ought to be taught their ciphering or what was necessary at the
school, but that the clergyman, belonging to the religion to
which the parents adhered, ought to teach religion to the
children. He was not one of these who said that
this was a triumph of his principles, because the
Government had decided in favour of the principles
adopted in the University College and against the doctrine
upheld in King's College. No, he thought that that did not
apply to Ireland where circumstances were quite different.
Was it excluding religion to say that there was a school where
natural philosophy and mathematics were to be taught to the
children from ten o'clock till four, and that then these children
were to go home to their parents, who would have an oppor-
tunity of teaching, either themselves or through their
clergymen, the religion which they professed, to their children ?
They who cared for no religion would provide for all creeds in-
discriminately, they would not be anxious for the observance or
distinction of any religion, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Pres-
byterian, Mahometan, Hindoo, Baptist, Anabaptist, and all
and every persuasion, would be allowed to be followed indiscri-
minately and evasively. Secular knowledge could be taught
without religion. Could any man doubt it ? What did
custom, what did precedent prove ? When a French master, a
dancing mistress, a fencing master, or other such teachers
of useful or ornamental accomplishments were engaged, did the
parents require a man capable also of imparting religious know-
ledge ? Surely if dancing and fencing could be harmlessly taught
apart from religion, Greek and Latin could as satisfactorily be im-
parted. Another objection to the Bill was that propounded by the
Noble Lord opposite in presenting some petitions that evening,
requiring and urging that no religion should be adopted that
was not founded on the system pursued at Oxford and Cam-
bridge. The promoters of such an argument evinced the
most profound ignorance, for at Oxford and at Cambridge the
most opposite systems were pursued. Thus in Oxford he ad-
mitted the principle of exclusive high Protestant teaching was
adopted, and the Government measure was in direct contra-
distinction to it ; but in Cambridge the system was the very
reverse—men of all creeds could pass any examination except
that of graduating, and take any honours, even to that
of a wrangler, and stopping only at that of a fellowship,
when the subscription to the articles of our Church was required.
But he must go a step farther and say, that the prospect of
danger was exaggerated, and, indeed, unfounded ; and the
longer he lived the more he regretted that at the time of car-
rying the Union the Emancipation was not conceded also. The
endowment of the College of Maynooth was not included in the
Emancipation of 1829, and hence he was convinced had arisen
all the grievances; in Ireland, It had been said the Roman
Catholic prelates and priests were obnoxious to the measure,
and Would oppose it with all their vigour as well as use all their
endeavours to thwart it. To such a statement he replied
Ow/at Judaus :Apella 1" " Credat ay, quis eredat I"
—( Loud laughter. ) In 1825 Lord Francis Egerton proposed
that an annual grant should be conceded of 250,0001. to pay
the Catholic clergy. Between 1,200/. and 1,5001. for the
archbishops, 4001. to 8001. to bishops, 500/. to deacons, and
1501. to the parish priests. Here was a great scheme, endow-
ing the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. And yet it
was now urged that the present measure was a novelty, and
that that Nobie Lord to whom he had referred had departed
from his original principles. When that accusation was urged
he took occasion to inquire into the circumstances, and he
.found, on reference to the votes, the facts he had just stated,
He would quote the testimony of the dead as well as the living
on this subject. He might, perhaps, be permitted to pause for
an instant, and to cast an eye over the memory of that illustri-
ous man who had just departed from among them ; and it had
never fallen to his lot to know of any man of a more unsullied
honour and spotless integrity conjoined with such great excel-
lence, as his illustrious friend who had now paid the debt to
nature. Of all men he held the opinion most strongly and
most consistently to give liberty to oppressed Ireland by eman-
cipating the Catholics—to give equal rights to all her subjects,
so that there should not be one law for the rich and another for
the poor. :To take the mischief from the hands of the mischief-
maker—to endow the Catholic religion liberally, but prudently,
was one of the darling objects of the life of the estimable man
who was now departed—
" Ut maliguum cessare faciam otiosus reddam."
No man had ever lived more respected for his opinions and con-
sistency, and died more respected than Earl Grey.
Lord ELDON considered that when the Noble Lord
who moved the second reading of the Bill, said it was
without any religious distinctions as to sects, he would referd
him to one of the last clauses of the Act. According to his
opinion, he had also, in reading the petition, mentioned the
name of Cambridge, and it was not to be found in it.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
The Earl of CA RNARVON felt it his painf'ai duty to
differ to-night from those Noble Lords with whom he was in
the habit of voting. He felt sure that they had the welfare of
the country at heart. He agreed ten what fell from his
Noble and Learned Friend, that it, was impossible to overrate
the importance of the measure before the House. He could
not satisfy his mind, that whatever might be the intentions of
her Majesty's Government, that the, proposed measure would
not be a severe blow struck at religion. He would contend
that on public grounds they were bound' to bring up the
scholars in such a way as would render them good men and
good citizens. It seemed to him, that as the State gave the
best secular education that it could, so it should give to the
youths the best religious education of which they might be sus-
ceptible: In every regulation the State was bound to advance
the public good, and the popular interests could not be more
effectually served than by training the youth up in religious
feelings. The institutions ought to he founded on such a plan.
His Noble Friend bad presented a petition from certain res-
pectable men at Oxford, who opposed the measure on reli-
gious grounds. They felt that their duty to God and their
country tompelled:them to come forward on that occasion.
He complained that no greater religious character had been
given to the Bill. The Noble Lord had alluded to the sub-
ject of separate colleges. He quite agreed with him,
that the harmony and good feeling likely to result from such
a union were very desirable. But he could not consider that
a mixed assembly of youths holding different religious
opinions, was likely to conduce much to harmony.
Separate collages did not involve unjust ascendancy.
There was no likelihood of the Protestant' or Catholic clergy-
men co-operating to carry it out. The Catholic hierarchy
denounced it, Mr. O'Connell; flounced it, and there could be
but little doubt that it woul .;- be ultimately a failure. The
O'Connell;
people of Ireland accepted th Vayndoth grant as a favour bet
regarded this measure as a cu It:„ When they saw such names
as that of Bishop Murray enl ^ tted in 'hostility against the Bill,
could they doubt but that the; measure was hurtful to the re-
ligious feeling" of the people and was considered as most in-
judicious? The professor of history would naturally give a
colouring to faits according to his religion, and that colouring
would be stronger whore people's prejudices were most sensitive.
He did not much see the necessity of a Catholic or Protestant
professor for geology or anatomy, but he would certainly
wish to see a good Christian fill the chair. He objected to
the great patronage which the Bill conferred—and did not think
the power of nomination in the Crown afforded any guarantee
against the propagation of improper doctrines. This
had been found to be the case in foreign

universities. The great objection he had to thlle,
Bill was that there would not be any religious instruction at, h
or any religious endowment, at least for several years, enti.eri
would be a reproach to this country. Religious instruQetfse
should not bey left "to the hazard of the die." Th ° "ibis
should, as resects these pupils, stand in loco parent er
Bill gave the bishops no veto, nor any other power whatelly
over professors, however wicked or infidel their principles.
was not insensible to the difficulties with which the fines*
was surrounded, and gave credit to the Government for
courage in bringing it forward ; but he could not help thill
that the provision for religious instruction was
inadequate, and that some means might be the
which would remove this cardinal objection front ;),
Bill. Education resembled the giant in the ;Ls
tales, who killed his parents. Education was Peen''''gs
if not properly managed, but could be rendered most service,,,,,
and efficient by being well directed.—( Hear, hear.) '1;
Noble Earl then alluded to the question of education in Fraflissi
and said he was happy to see that religion was reviving in
country. On last Easter Monday there were 1,000 Coning
nicants in the church of Notre Dame; and the prorin;
churches of France, which were some years ago deserted, nteli
'crowded. He could only repeat that he did not suspect tpi;l
the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord at the head of the Col°ool
Department had any other object in view in bringing fore;
the measure than to benefit the country. He should thereiiscto
move, and he did so with great pain, that the Bill be readt"
day six months.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered that the niefle;
sure before the House was but an instalment of the Walt.
which he hoped the Government intended to bestow upon
land. The great object of the Bill was to secure the eduel'i
of the people of Ireland ; the second was the necessity of Pr°;.,
portioning that education to the different classes of whinh,.„o
ciety was composed ; the third—and on which this queStib-as
mainly hinged—of laying down this system in a inorie,,t
should make it acceptable to all classes, preventing the o'",
which they tendered from being loaded by regulations and 111,
which might turn conscientious men from receiving t
benefits which it was intended to confer. Some people Were a 5
opinion that the education of the great mass of the people wo
neither proper nor covenient ; but the contrary opinin° rif r
prevailed. The second point—that of providing education :(
the middle classes. Whilst they had provided the roeseloo
education for the poorer classes they had neglected the educe is
of the middle classes by leaving its support to the class whit'flii
was intended to benefit. Thre was now a demand not °
among the laity but among the clergy of Ireland, for soni:j
thing, ou the part of the Government, which would an by
the means of instruction in the practical sciences, t.;
which men might earn their own livelihood ; and sof
permanently useful to society. This, then, was the objectsthe present measure, but let him tell the Noble. Lord. n.;
this desirable object would not be effected if that eduanroti
was made sectarian in the slightest degree. If there etersroe
fessors appointed to teach one religion, and colleges in whwm.-„e,
religion was taught, the worst results could not fail to
With respect to the petition from some of the members 0'.4.0.
University of Oxford, clauses had been inserted, making ling
vision for the religious instruction of the pupils, without 07tbe
it exclusive. He must admit that there was one part the
Bill upon which he looked with apprehension—he ntearL" si'e
appointment of the whole of the professors by her hin`7o.
Government. He did not question the motives of the
ment ; he had no doubt—nay, he was sure it was their inteet7o
it was to their interest to appoint men well qualified to perf,°o
their duties ; but there was a disposition in Ireland, vriLis,
could not be well rooted out, to attribute every appointreo"
and especially appointments of this kind, to Governreentic
tronage. He hoped that a provision would be introdueefl,bilese
the Bill, now or at an early period, for concentrating eh,* be
colleges into the form of one national university, wh,„ic%itf
was convinced, would effect the greatest good. 11— 0
College, Dublin, might be made the focus, bat,
there was an objection to that course, a college °lv
be erected in the vicinity of Dublin, where 0,0
heads of the .other colleges might meet at one ernarigt
centre for the management of her affairs, and for confe_.r
degrees on those who deserved them. It should be a eolierol
itself, but the representation of the three colleges.
_my
carrying out of this suggestion could not fail to have a dries
tory effect upon Ireland.—( Heir, hear, and cheers.) PeAsr
he concluded, he wished IS a :press that a system of see"td,
education would also be most desirable to that cent to
It should be in accordance with the feeling of the country if
afford education to every class of her Majesty's subjeets'ale
this Bill was carried out with care it would give to the Peicini
an influence much wanted in that country. He corni'd
supported this Bill, at the same time wishing that they WO
give it the utmost care in its ultimate operation. He thansi,
their Lordships for the attention which they had afforded s.i
to
Lord CLIFFORD wished to offer his unfeigned gratiteddelo
the Noble Lord who had introduced this measure. He b3f tiO
hesitation in giving his support to the second reading °'thef
Bill. He thought it absolutely necessary, however, that the
should disabuse the people of Ireland of the notion that raid
people of this country were their enemies. He wished
his Noble Friend opposite would consider before he `b day
press his amendment that this Bill should be read tins

six months.
Lord BEAUMONT said that he did not intend to entre
into the details of the question, because the remarks which
would have made were more eloquently laid before thee3beip
the Noble Marquis near him. He could not, however' Os
distinctly stating his unqualified approval of the measure. by
approval of it was not founded on the narrow grounds taken
the Noble Lord who introduced it, that it was partieulpie
suited to Ireland. He approved of it for the great 'willed,
which it contained, applicable equally to England and Ire',ll,
namely, the abandonment of religious tests, and the rem of
by mixed education, of those animosities which arose out hi!
sectarian differences. That was the chief ground of 0
approval. His Noble Friend behind him had treat he
this question as a Roman Catholic question, but
nth
(Lord Beaumont) was of opinion that it should 85 7: tbis
be considered a Protestant question. He thought tha'fio.
Bill most properly took away from the pries's that power °
itv
terference with secular matters which they at present 1n°9t.,,0p1,1
properly possessed. He would not detain them, and be pd to
only state that it was the only measure that could be 81,P11,- bad
Ireland in its present state ; and, would to Heaven that it
be carried out in England.
The Bishop of NORWICH said that from what be it)
heard all his scruples were gone, and he would not hestenlit
giving this measure his most unqualified support. Het rpallf
that this measure would tend to create those bonds to ire
which should exist between the people of this country an
° tcy
land ; and he thought it would introduce into that collo
the spirit of Christianity, which should prevail there. .
Lord LYTTELTON said that he wished to ask a questloo
the Noble Lord (Stanley). There was a clause in tbevirg
which provided that such students as were desirous of reeelps
religious instruction could attain it. One would thin.k pot
they need not attend any religious instruction if they did4oo
think proper. In another clause it provided that the renbe
should be approved of by the parents or guardians !"'' tho
pupils. He wished to know if the pupil should real/ eO4
sanction of his parent or guardian, and whether the gofer
body then could compel the pupil ? a 1"
Lord STANLEY said that facilities should be affnr-leb the
giving religious instruction. Compulsion did not rest
governing body.
The original motion for the second reading was then P-sitail 1
carried without a division, and their Lordships aciPurr
Twelve o'clock.

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