The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-08 00:00:00

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_ me persons to whom wa.s
haesstri
teaching the highest branches of t
the metropolis an:
gnn eodbl etip'er ion.orflet•lst r
lite conceived that a great evil would fall on the country,.
hythe degradation of the surgeons in
Surgeons
,_.,..,
an
the transformation of the College
hand,
he
wou'lllatn.'on„
Apothecaries' Hall. On the ether all the oire-
fes that although
tions taken by the admitbgeendeidraln‘p)tra(=titi,il'e'nyers
I were in some
founded_ by
he thought that.. to be well-
respects exaggerated ; ye
he taken. The
to
cautions which they desired ought
d • to exalt their
t he did thiek. that certain pre-
geeeral practitioners stated that in otrheel
°1"11 station and their own
iinrfieons had endeavoured physicians and
stalwart' of the practitioners. the
1.10 had eorne to the conclusion that it
....,„,e,,T;ott.d
Pro-
lue°rPorate the general practt,,„ses. ll ••l 1
thPete that ' futurel 1 stud
e in a ,
..,.,itt, . ,
non at cue
"e, profession shy d undergo an examine
int.,(,
Place mil - -"`
he proposed,.
.i ‘
-that should hereafter lintel:
,—. Y.- l'o secure that object
g of Physielans, a
reisi ~ Bill, to establish a
trege of Surgeons, and a C-" 119
~noners. No student should pas
he had attained the
41 a fur tt general practitioner until ,
stool,
age of twenty two s'iltersoetnosfhG‘haisere'xdanPirnaitie--
retitle •
the College
~ it twenty-one. He then
or ph , . . The Bill,
Pr(4)(fseburgeons should
be. 3s'eians and the College c; h• board he pro.
as
sd
tiltiatn)w
/e a joint board of examiners. ris
college of
rPh 'sicians.
tel,rPd 'bottle' consist o'f six members of the ,
on.
e„,feutial and six of the College 0-
ai'e the
)t'"l34 with the Council of Health this board)roslpion",%l
examination of students. He thebnoln,,_ °e11.5(01
athat the College of General Practitioners should 11
With re
diVnitit another board to examine exclusively the catidl-
- twi3li,ing to net as general practitioners.
ell - ,u PnYsielans and surgeons,
be twenty-six
Ye the student to be examinedthat the
„..„1 IL had now Come to -
manner
Aruwecari ' I
the most handsome
vith
th 3, , es Company. n
the
which th
their Act.
lle
mid agreed to surrender all the. power 1
eY were invested under pre
Colleges—the
coped that there should be three
Surgeon'
of.,
tli ega of Physicians, the College .
411dif:lie College of General Pra.,titioners,
College
ohfoGiiet:
dby the new Ili" -+transfer to the v
en_
neeld /•,re • . ,
..1 ~o .
should do,
and he
thYtet s elit'"7.-ers all the privileges which were not mitt; 'Y the Apothecaties' ComPan):ti m
s on the for-
s ''' at the sante time, with the s3s e . of five yera
otkenticeship, which was so very obnoxiou.
discretion
tint% c'ech asion, when he addressed the House ,
gi 'ed much importance to the power andfe
had now
Coer,s4 to the Apothecaries' Company;
.but he had not
them a
Colred it better ta remove those privileges to the new
plee.eqs of General Practitioners,. and give
been pro-
-- la the Council of Health. With respect to the per-
ilous ivho Were to sit on that Council, it hadlem.
1 in the
tt'ttsatid.. to place the power of nominating
eed -*of the Crown ; but he was not the
b the Bill,
, e to such a o osition • but he ha , 3'
tituents
Placed an 1•1313 I. in E • the new cons
persont to ac-
iehie, . e ectlon ot ttiese ot...cers
ti_neu lt created. Having
to give them a
..10441 rs into a College, he would prop?sc
board he pro-
rilos ° at the
t Board of Health ; and this
elected die General Practi-
on. lie
de e(.l -0 make the examining board for al the. candi-
on
Prot ma
the different branches of the profess'
Ned that the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor
stir: ities
the tni e
have a place i
the „ lersities of London should each
that the Uni-
,,e_ ouncil of Health. It was necessary t in
were them-
of Oxford and Cambrige, which
an
ex-
otn:i!_eatitled to confer degrees, should enjoy
Bill to a
eerrt `iii from the operation of
of 4111 extent. He proposed thattliis the
.p_o.wTheir,
4110 ranting' degrees, which they now e"9e
pet:ld 15611 be continued to them; but there was another
ee; t which had to be considered. It was the privilege.ay
,v, . Preetising in the
et,':Yed by the College of Physicians of preventifnrogmoit,
miles
shardship
metropolis, or seven
it'otitout their coesent. Ile thought this was a
reli s.„slliell gracluetes of the two universities '
net' 't, and ise shsai ps.--,10,,a ',
tiler-10:e, 1).)' thin m, this
tale' ''`) "tenant their ' - 1 -t •s tr. in the operation of
t_
aiglic,t t0,,t.:e2
e, 4, ,:.
,gra( tut t
atioi, " to give to every ene
r in
itly ti",,' and possessed a diploma, the right to p. :stiedt.on. y
who had passed an exam.
theass't of the United Kingdom. After exam 7, i,
weore
te fe,„eas°l%, of whole deputies from the univers,i i s
to th-' two, they int, iided to li lye only
"e
portalwished
to ,oe
,Professiov, and whether a student
or ; '•0 the Practice of a physician,
a AIN"' the
eskoie g!aeral practitioner, he mu, t. pa
4 illee arise from the import alight ation of this Council of Health. Soto,• difficulty,.
ot
vetni sip, of tntAicin. " Ile would explain tha,_
,rni-
-I.es foirall,3'.l term of noviciatehis . He saw the Hon. Alt _
1 that the
filetito' "1,1 general practitioner was to eititnetrr,oduced to
liteittletell
~.11,0 ~should say, in reply t? thatha
th,w, ntild b:' ,_1.1.1,e Scottish Universities
thought that linen-
-1 44 of th 'ul?
Just to overlook. IL,
entitled to the
IA ~,, e Scottish Universities were
,d claims which
kin" 'Rt's as those enjoyed by students in the .1..._
"nteq"antages, and he should extend to them the...._
...set,,neitel
Se ',atm', be . -
9tllitd• 41aving passed a double examination
t'l r. ,1411 that would be required of them here a ouht he
rho opt !heir certificates; to the Council of
.Health,
• licences
1° Prattie_ 'lave the
}general power of grao.tingom. He
„.It* fr ti In all prts of the United Kingedniber
aeedal'al.the observation of the Hon.
lm ded some
ohodifßeidt- Warburton) that he appre" those
~..48 in, tamingvr the uali
ofhut he
glop sAtne from CV-
I ceteed „ istsnt Parts of
•fficulty in se ding
Nit__ hat there would be no di
d colleges n
order...tessors to the different schools an
fications
ac-
bit,, ~e ascertain the mode of examination, ti4..?lts of the students. Since the 23d clausebut
he
and the
was
baw ~113' framed, his views had been altered,,
.__
ac-
tow those reason to restrict the practice of the profession
111.4dekr,,„°41 Who had obtained the licence or ti,lce,
Z 4 of the collegiate authorities in London. 11. ,
y th eti to destroy the distinction at presesa,t possessed
IN
,13 college of Physicians, of practising ultra urbe,
hr_ ktg.ra rbein and to give to every person the right of
1,44 'sing in all parts of the United Kingdom. ll°
V2iksed to lay upon the table of the ROLM, immedi
tp after the recess, or perhaps before the recess, the
Sorter of the or
of Physicians the College of
rei!teons, and of the several Colleges in Scotland and
titl,e VI entitle tO grant degrees, and to show at the same
I'ortt 0 different powers granted under the new charter.
tto,:_te prospective advantages these charters would fully
Pet Lae, but he ad *tt d h
clifi ulty in its
res,..
.. mt e t ere was a 1 c . .
eel,e.,Pective efect. Some persons in the profession pos
seehr Peculiar rights of practising in certain places- Ile
Chet
Ittittot preserve that right intact, but he would give
ttel • advantge, by allowing them to register their
t,
fl,ieve ~:
1‘ S th:Vlts during their own lives, and thus bind, as
Zresere,„;:irennlstances of ould allow, the
,bLiahlie;Zatia,of private benefitwiththe`promotion.of the
Pik
of
tVeq to the 'age. This was especially the ease withrei
itti ketrepe?
practising within seven miles._ of
h he
°ted to is. But he hoped by the plan which gristlygreat .glye the d . of practising, without too
14,.
~ . a vantage .
te .ertering with. the rights at present
Ne ' Tiler
• w ith
•t 3
Ater -et to t 5,... e Was, perhaps, a little ambigudi b ,
the
ilea Aer,,ttsguruption of titles. He propose ,
.) .
1),In• 0' Parliament to render the simulation of
,ste4 -'B',able a '
doubt had
tale, .ream, • -8 a misdemeanour. Some
`ll 4 "eting tee title of Doctor, which had been
aPr'itiost.l bY mans' e
practitioners. lie
merit, toli .of the general
who had
th ‘ll it f lintt the right to this title to those
at th Bill the th CII Physicians.He thought
Jet,, 0 NI
._.).e o ege of
sleirti kw
eawittsht lie on the table till the middle of
shepe
had 37 after tilie hoped to have it in a perfectr lcun
4110 retich d e recess, and after all tha in ()rm. i. ,
illil al* '
could hi
tu de , , hit, which he o-41.11, he
of 14,104e-` It his duty to advise her Majesty'
hddrit'lisiejar,.riew elia.rters, both to the College
kip) or Js and the College of Surgeons. By the
pi, ,le. H.
9 Its one,.
the whole case would be before the
tietNee, "4 had int • • h heads of the
oiler hot, ,
~ . erviews with the
io-
),°l' th., 3, kW ;: PIIYSICIatIS, surgeons, and
general pet
tf ' Pe? ." was happ say tlsat the whole
body
„stile - ession •of before the
Nee ' or , aPproveclthe measure
of
persons,
east
Iver course ;
y ,n so great a number
ne It e %fly dissentents, but the bulk of the pro-
011.' isepr3,ls.li°r‘eil of the men'sure.
r ,I. Qb° air- GISBORNE,
et eueii
0,,`,e1.114111 stated that he proposed that thers
tekil,ll 44'
ettealth
should consist of forty-eight membaed-
ef teand thltes„°f the profession, of fifteen years sta
et.ll Yettea t'Ley should be elected by a constituency
1 ettry „sanding, subject to the approval of the
ore 6tate.
Sir J.
,'1r,?,t,01. T. WOOD,
thete''ery t'S GRAHAAI stated that he proposed
Sed Pet touce should be examined by the Board, in
ph,, test
tairetheance, for e degree cff a general practitioner,
iati , Y Night theed to the degree of surgeon or
tit Nes eidtici that in the ease Of graduates from the
jar iteteseexrford and Cambridge, the examiners should
ii,ri'llly to a 4t the Ituard of the Council of Health.
44 4.
.t,
.Cptilin ROUS,
he Nth '1144•1141.1 stated that of course the Council
tiei would b
, )14„-Jeet to „ 0 governed by bye-laws, which would
0e " ll4ei,"ne appro 1 fSecretary of State.
'tet vvts •_, va 0 rho
,e., ttry of., said that he saw no reason why theii_.
I Nee b Mate a
'tte or* etwer. houlcl despair of reconciling the ef.
eto' %egee'll the general practitioners and the C I
old
th hr ogee
~ na. lie feared that this measure would
ll_
to , utsfasteful to tb
profession,
t'!')11,1 :i.odu4 o whole of the
,great
fhiteo .' le the and the country. There was a.
40 a, the 26th clause, and it was impossible to
lat are the 4ein..) 26th with the 22(1 and 23d:—n
ptill, . obtaj4 Ihe great object of the. profelsyshwat
Itttlititlettittri„
___4ll equality of qualification.
out le
filet'‘ warded was, that the teachers of pupils
."iiit ease be drainersfor degrees, and he
A* the i, ex.
me
k qtltki or e ?nerd of Health should institute so
41c1 •inktl 'l.lllination which would make them
thq-ekis„,_
_niteeWith tke s v ISchools and the numbers
or
,_ e era. ,
might be
to orate,. . tue puptle Some plan
~.,.
b•heating
114 r. Iv Leh he the probability of such an evil as
,oti Ak ad alluded.
tt .P • LEI •
' is
t.• Ned said that he fully agreed with h
:tilhe 'et the Ai a 11N
quote'tque , elnber for Lambeth that the alters-
ued by this measure in the old Jaw would
'et -nett
e countr N . hthe greatest possible dig
14 eeh . lie . Y 7 vit
th, lia,d 'lnge,
wi J 41r. IN akley) was greatly dissatisfied I
I, 41 n"b .11(11 the Right lion. Baronet proposed.
t.t„, xp.,,,,t,..ed that those changes would have removed
111Pilirtth'itittl thehich at prest•nt prevailed so generally
florin
te 6,, Profesion. The Right lion. Baronet
''''ai,r the-",P,,afee the powers given. by the Act of
Oie'ilLivaa t'al,ril to the new corporation. No
,11 esitZ): ne permitted to practice who had
Ie,,L.J. q„ Tined before the new corporation.
lt,ry h'4IIAII ex la' d 'Cho Ilan, Member for
Pre .' AV 144.1 taiSUn I'P ne • c -
4, ‘ll,l, 4,15t4,,_ i itsteod him.
4 '9, /1 IN Iv , I ---I hen, if that were the ease, of what
lid
as„o 44 the ti,„ . •
• - 9 Did the Right
Iv eh. et ~,,,_
till.• oi poratioli .
..
411. eltle,, leh iin lllll fU3 alleviating the evil.
g, thou ,h erai practitioners laboured? lie (Mr
' • r It
wtolittarn,lvt6
.I. It rather den•racle 1 them. The RIO
elta %. ete viqually atlirm6ed that the general prac•
Rive l'il4a,•re tatter]
scat.(kr IN -lon, .„. Y Unworthy of sitting at the bo Irds
_ vv era' .
,s,.id he think that this measure would
w h tle
,4ttisfaction to those practitioners?- lie
kt th Y / le.,
--s sure 13. rtd teereho e that it would not. The fact
th 'IN , have g authorities in the Council of Surgeons
outht Nto l'uficient influence with the Right lion.
Prof'th 4lq, h;
4404 itt It), , ,rn forget the claims of others. He
i re,;,,u() Men, the members of the Medical
-"i'ets of the College of Surgeons, were

obliged to submit to geeel indignities, and this Bill of
the Right Hon, Baronet's wte-, but a continuation of the
system. It seemed a peint With tile Right Barbiiet
to gretifytthose Skies tne aethority for a
lane who, according to general opinion, had
abused that authority. He repeated, it seemed to him
that the Eight lion Baronet wished to prolong' that
authority in their hand, in spite of the many petitions
which had br..t-tiprrsentedyearsteforeprayil4,g"
ire the medical In the etit' 1 teti', lade lee:dice]
meetings were held in Ise.heidn, and resolutions Were pas-ed
eondeiistittiey of the council of the College of Sur-
goons. From tlitt time medical associations had been
in existeece, teed from time to the the question had
been discussed ; bet to the amarement of the Members
of the College of Surgeons, they ft tend that in 1843 a
new charter was granted to the council, containing pro-
visims of a most odious and obnotiotts nature. The
eendeott of the members of this council was open to re-
proesh, and they were rewarded. How ? By the
gift of a new charter—he would venture to say clan-
destinely obtainel—a chatter that might p!eai‘o the
clique that formed the Council, but was received with
the utmost displeasure by the 13,000 members of the
c allege. On that very day he had had a communication
from Shropshire, containing a memorial which had been
addressed to the Council, after having received the sanc-
tion of the majority of practitioners in all the counties of
England. A meeting was held in that county on the 3d
of April, 1845, and a resolution moved by Mr. Brooks,
and seconded by Mr. Cartwright, was to the effect that
the meeting felt themselves aggrieved by the ex-
clusive character of the charter granted to the
College of Surgeons, as they thought themselves justly
entitled to a full participation in all the privileges which
that charter denied them. But there were thirteen
thousand members allowed to complain fruitlessly.
Did the Right Hon. Baronet believe that the surgeons of
this country would remain passive under this injury. He
(Mr. Walsley) was much deceived if the surgeons of the
country would not exhibit their feelings on this subject.
If the Right Hon. Baronet would refer to the evidence
taken before a Committee in 1834, he would find that
such men as Sir Astley Cooper, Sir Benjamin Brodie,
and Mr. Lawrence, all agreed that surgeons and general
medical practitioners should be examined before a board
of competent individuals. He was net aware that the
medical practitioners of England had forfeited the good
character which they had formerly maintained. Yet,
why were they not allowed to participate in the privi-
leges of their own college? He allowed them to exer-
cise the elective franchise in the new corporation, then
why not in the College of Surgeons? But the council
themselves were not satisfied with the charter for last
year they petitioned to be heard at the bar of the
House against it. The measure went upon the principle
that the professional talent in the country was not equal
to that in town. He (Mr. Wakley) had no doubt that in
the country there were men equal in talent to Sir Ben-
jamin Brodie, but who had not had opportunities of dis-
playing it. The practitioner in the country was obliged
to trust to his own resources, for, in any case of diffi-
culty, he could not as in town send for Sir Benjamin
Brodie, or some gentleman equally celebrated, to take
the responsibility of the case off his shoulders. The
efforts of the country practitioners had never been
surpassed, considering their opportunities, by any of the
achievements of the profession in the metropolis. Those
men were not merely competent surgeons, but they were
physicians. They were quite equal in point of talent
and knowledge to those who practised in London.—
(Hear, hear.) According to the statement of the Right
lion. Baronet himself, he was going to create a new
Apothecaries'-hall.—(Hear.) He believed that if the
Right Hon. Gentleman would give the franchise to the
general body, all the wrong that existed would
be rectified. It was most unjust to disfranchise
12,000 members of the College of Surgeons for the mis-
conduct of a self-elected council of twenty-six persons.
If die members of the College were restored to their
rust rights, tar; re would bo no occasion for the institution
of ant their body. —(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Would
the Right Hon. Gentleman grant an inq try into the
present condition of the College of Surgeons? lie did
not think that the council, after their recent letter, de-
serve;] so much patronage as the Right lion. Gentleman
lavished upon them.—(Hear, hear.) Would the Right
lion. Baronet lay the 1,-tter upon the table?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the letter had been al-
ready printed.
WAKLEY had not seen it amongst the mere of
the House. There was a grave misstatement in the
very preamble of the Bill, which stated that the Bill was
ietrodueed in consequence of a memorial from the Col-
lege of Surgeons ; whereas, in point of fact, the College
did not memorialise at all.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The memorial had the seal of
the corporation.
Mr. WAKLEY—But the memorial was written by
the Council alone, which did not, in any respect, repre-
sent the profession.
Mr. WARBURTON was happy to find so much
unanimity in the House on the subject of medical re-
form. He understood the object of the Bill to be to
create a standard of uniformity in medical education.—
(Hear, hear.) He had read that morning a statement
from the professors of King's College and University
College on this subject, and he agreed with them
that residence ought to be made a condition
in qualifying for a degree. But in London the oppor-
tunilies were so great for pursuing medical studies, that
the enforcement of residence need not extend over so
long a period as in Edinburgh.
An HON. MEMBER here rose and moved that the
House be counted.
The galleries were accordingly cleared of strangers,
but there being above 40 Members present, the debate
was continued.
On our return to the gallery,
Mr. WARBURTON was remarking that the provi-
sions in clause 33, in his opinion, took away an efficient
security which existed at present, for graduates under-
going a proper examination at Edinburgh ; and he was,
therefore, bound to object to it. The Bill appeared to him
to provide that graduates and licentiates qualifying at
Edinburgh should be entitled to the same privileges and
rights possessed by those who qualified in England. If
this were so, and he believed the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite admitted it was so, he thought the licentiates
and graduates qualifying in England, or who had reached
the requisite standard in England, should reciprocally be
allowed to hold and to enjoy situations of patronage and
privilege in Scotland and Ireland. He thought there
was a bad system prevailing at present, and as the Bill
was calculated to improve it, he hoped the Right Hon.
Baronet would be enabled to carry it to-night.
Mr. ACKLAND thought the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury had just delivered a speech, which he had carefully
prepared for the previous evening, but still it appeared
to him not likely to produce the beneficial effect
which the lion. Member anticipated. The Hon. Mem-
ber said the Bill drew a distinction between the arts of
medicine and surgery, but he (Mr. Ackland) was not
prepared to admit the Hon. Gentleman's proposition.
Both acts were of equal importance to the country, and
the Bill in his opinion was brought forward solely with a
view of placing them upon a more settled and more
fir footing. He believed there was much more confi-
dence placed in the College of Surgeons than would be
inferred from the speech of the Honourable Memherfor
Finsbury; he made this statement from considerable
knowledge on the subjec`. The Honourable Member
had not told them what was the course that ought to be
pursued, nor did he beiieve he could.
Mr. H. BERKELEY said the reason he had moved
that the House should be counted, was in order
to show the disgust he felt at the course pursued by
the Government in stoppin!., last night the motion of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury, by making no House.
—(l fear, hear.) lie contended that that motion ought
to have been male and disposed of before the measure
now before the House was brought under di,cussion.
The Hon. Member for Finsbury had intended to bring
beAve the House the conduct of the Council of the Col-
lege of Surgeons, which had had disgusted every one.
They had selected men without talent.",9lnstances had
come before him that were perfectly disgraceful.
He could point out many instances, where the omission
of persons of distinction from being selected fellows
must bring upon those persons a stigma and a slur.
They all knew Mr. Dermot, many of whose pupils had
risen to the greatest height in the profession. This gen-
tleman was omitted, and the world would generally con-
sider that to be a slur. When Gentlemen said that it
was not a slur, he really did not un lerstand what they
meant. He would call upon the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex, and also the Member for Finsbury, to corrobo-
rate the fact, that London gentlemen had performed
as many brilliant operations as their Bredies. This gen-
tleman was Mr. Frogly, who was as well known to the
physicians of London to be as distinguished a physician,
as any physician could be. He knew it could not be a
slur upon such men as Mr. Dermot or Mr. Frogly, but
he could not defend the omission, when he found men,
not possessing half their knowledge, raised to the dis-
tinction of fellows.
Colonel T. WOOD thought that the speeches that
were made were sufficient to satisfy them that they were
bound to endeavour, as far as possible, to open the pro-
fession widely to merit, and to avoid giving such an ab-
surd incorporation. Were they to have power to grant
degrees or to have second examinations ? The only
effect of a separate incorporation would be to create a
party in the profession, instead of uniting the general
body. If they had a separate incorporation a portion of
the profession would look with dislike upon the system,
and if they did not acquire the same power, they would
endeavour to obtain the power of giving degrees. This
exclusive mode would give great offence. While Mr.
Frogly was omitted, the men of less knowledge in
their profession were admitted. It could not
be that such men would suffer that injustice.
There was superiority given according to the date of the
entrance of their diploma or fellowship, which practice
would be very injurious to the medical officers of the
naval or military department. They were necessarily
absent for many years, and anything that would affect
these men would be deeply felt for there was no class of
men that conferred greater benefits on science than mili-
tary medical men. Ile had two instances where, in
time present arrangement, two surgeons who were edu-
cated at Westminster School, had practised in the first
hospitals in London, and had distinguished themselves
at Hyderabad, would. after they had returned find them-
selves excluded from fellowships, and young men, who
were infants when they were in practice, admitted and
placed above them. General discontent would arise from
the unnecessary exclusion of such men. The Right Ho-
well-able Gent'eman, however, refused all inquiry. lie
(Colonel Wood) presented a petition from 1)r. Guthrie,
who thought that an inquiry ought to take place ;
anti if it were instituted, the House could
put the College in a position which would be
satisfactory to the whole profession. He beheld witq
dismay the proposition of the Government. He thought
it would create a division in the profession, which
would be exceedingly injurious in a scientific point of
teem

Alter a few words from Captain ROUS, which were
quite inaudible, from the lowness of his tone of voice,
The Howe went into Committee on the Bill.
Sir 3, 0.1i411.4.1g, who yip very indistij4Qtly beard

T..p. ft. $v N, •j,._Q±N:::p._.9.iNA.

iii the gallery, was understocd to say that the Hon
atid Gallant Member who hal • just sat-.:clown
Pad ChdrgeS' against tiu ,the most extraordinary
he had ever heard. No doubt he" was respeinsible
for this Bill, and that responsibility he was, ready to un-
dertake.--(Hear, hear). He had heard a great deal
upon this su'ijeet, in reference to army surgeons; and he
had listen, c 1 with attention to much that had fallen from
ItiS (+anent Friend behind him on the subject, when he
it. lie was ready td dlaLt that there was
much to be complained of in the old suppleffiental
charter, by which, amongst other provisions, the surgeons
were self-elected, and sworn to abide by certain laws;
the new Act propo,ed to remedy that evil,
and several others, which the House and the public
could easily judge of when the Bill came before the House.
London as a school of medicine and surgery possessed
great and pre-eminent advantages from its locality. He
,s as aware that other localities which did not possess
the same advantages were naturally disposed to attract
students from London, by presenting advantages of an-
other description. In order to prevent the effects of such
attractions, he had introduced a safeguard ; for in-
stance, he had increased the terms of residence at Edin-
burgh from one year to two, so that students might not
be attracted from London to Edinburgh. He had be-
stowed more time and attention on this subject than al-
most on any other. He had endeavoured honestly to
make the measure useful and acceptable to the commu-
nity, and notwithstanding the predictions of the
Honourable Member for Finsbury, he was con-
fident that it would receive the support of the
general practitioners. He thought the Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Finsbury must hare last
night, at the meeting in Hanover-square, seen that the
general practitioners were not in favour of his views ; if
he (Sir J. Graham) mistook not, only ten or twelve indi-
viduals at the meeting were in favour of the views of the
Hon. Member.
Mr. WAKLEY—The Right Hon. Gentleman Is quite
misinformed.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM went on to say that he nego-
tiated with the gentlemen who represented the general
practitioners, and he knew the Colleges of Physicians
and Surgeons approved of it ; thus, having succeeded in
obtaining the approbation of the three great bodies, he
thought there would be little difficulty in rendering the
measure genera'ly acceptable.
Mr. WAKLEY observed that he had a notice on the
paper for Thursday week, and would reserve his prin-
cipal observations for that occasion. Last night he
attended a meeting of general practitioners, to which
the Right Hon. Baronet alluded, and his opinion was
that if the question were put, two-thirds of those present
would be in favour of the general enfranchisement of the
College of Surgeons. He declared that there had not
been anything like violence exhibited at that meeting,
but only such dissension as difference of opinion usually
engendered. He had been informed by those gentlemen
connected with the Apothecaries'-hall who were present
that from the commencement they had looked to a sepa-
rate incorporation, and every step they had taken in re-
ference to this measure was guided by that object. This
certainly surprised him, it being the first time
he had been made aware of such _an intention.
General practitioners were engaged in Poor-law Unions,
and were allowed to practise generally in society. If
they were qualified to manage their own affairs, and
were considered worthy of a licence, why -not allow
them to manage a a college of their own ? The age of
twenty-two was considered sufficient to qnalify a general
practitioner, who was allowed to act as a physician, as
a surgeon, or a surgeon-accoucheur, while the rank of
surgeon or physician was not to be conceded to any
one under twenty-six years of age. Such distinction
was perfectly unreasonable and absurd.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM defended the distinction, and
considered the terms which the Hon. Member (Mr.
Wakley) had applied to it quite uncalled for. The age
of twenty-two was fixed as that at which the student
should receive his first examination, and be permitted to
practice generally; after which he would be required to
study four years longer, and be subjected to a second
strict examination before being admitted into any one of
the two grades of physician or surgeon. This he con-
sidered nothing but a fair regulation.
Me. WARBURTON said, that though there was
every care taken by the provisions of this Bill to ensure
the proper examination of the students previous to their
entering upon practice, yet he could not think that a
mere examination was any sufficient test of qualifica-
tion. There ought, in his opinion, to be some power of
inquiring into the previous education of the pupils and
the course that was prescribed to them in their own
schools and colleges. Neither was he altogether satis-
fied with the constitution of the Board of Health. In
his opinion it Would have been better to have left its no-
mination, as was originally proposed, in the hands or
the Crown fur the GovernMent, because then an efficient
controul might be exercised over the Members.
Mr.
.HAWES did not anticipate that any special re-
ference would be made to him, or he would have come
down with documentary evidence to show that the
bulk ,of the profession were favourable to the
principle of the measure before the House.--
(Hear, hear.) The Committee of 72, of which his Hon.
Friend the Member for Finsbury had spoken so slight-
ingly, represented a body of between 3,000 and
4,000 of the profession, and he thought they represented
a considerable .portion of the whole. Of these he had
nearly all the assents in writing to the chief principles of
the Bill. With respect to the appointment of the
Board of Health, he agreed with hi 3 Honourable
Friend the Member for Kendal, that it would have
been better to have left the nomination with the
Crown. There was one other point which should be
noticed, and he thought that there should be some check
on the education of the medical students in the Colleges,
both of Physicians and Surgeons, in Edinburgh. With
regard to the opposition of the profession, he had, with
his Hon. Friend, attended a meeting last night, where from
250 to 300 persons were present, and on a division upon
a matter which was supported by his Hon. Friend, there
were only twelve or thirteen persons who were opposed
to the Bill before the House.

Mr. MACAULAY, agreeing with the general cha-
racter of the Bill, cordially expressed his approbation of
the measure and his perfect satisfaction of the principle
on which it was based. There were one or two matters
of detail which he would oppose when the proper period
arrived for their consideration. One thing he would
certainly (if not forestalled by the Honourable Member
for Finsbury, or some other Honourable Member) divide
the Houie upon, namely, that the appointment of the
Court of Examiners should rest with the Crown.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM coincided with the opinion
expressed by the Right Honourable Member for Edin-
burgh, that the power of appointing the examiners should
rest with the Crown, but there were so many conflicting
interests to soothe, and so many rival interests to con-
sider, that it made the selection a difficult one.
Mr. WAKLEY agreed with the opinion expressed by
the Hon. Members for Kendal and Edinburgh, that the
nomination of this Court should rest with the Crown.

He did not see the necessity for a Council at all. Ile
should prefer that the whole of the power and responsi-
bility were concentrated in one body appointed by the
Crown.

The Bill was then read a second time, passed through
Committee, :and was reported.
COLLEGES OF SURGEONS AND PHYSICTANS.

This Bill passed through Committee, pro forma, and
the report was ordered to be brought up after the
holidays.
The Courts of Common Law (Scotland) Process Bill
wt.s read a second time.

The Court of Sessions (Scott ind) Bill was read a se-
cond time.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
;he House adjourned at Twenty minutes to One o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
WEDNESDAY, MAY 7.
GLASGOW BRIDGES BILL.
Reported ; Motion made, and Question put, " That the Bill be re-
committed." The II ouse divided:—

MINORITY-AYES, 27.
Baine, Walter Duncan, Viscount Ricardo, J. L.
Baldwin, Barry Etwall, Ralph Stanstield, W. R. C.
Barnard, E. G. Guest, Sir J. Stanton, W. 11.
Berkeley, Captain Hallyburton, Lord Turn x, Edmund
Berkeley, 11. F. Hastie,-Archibald - Villiers, Charles
Berkeley, Grantley Mutt, William Williams, William
Borthwlck, Peter Knight, F. W. Wood, Charles
Bright, John Muntz, G. F. TELLERS.
Colebrooke. Sir T. Paget, Colonel Forbes, William
Collett, W. It. Pechell, Captain Stewart, P. M.

MAJORITY—NOES, 52. .
Alllx, J. P. Buncombe, T. O'Brien, A. S.
Antrobus, Edmund Egerton, Sir P. Patten, J. W.
Arkwright, George Estcourt, T. G. B. Polhill, Frederick

ailey, Joseph
ahnerman, A.

E wart, William
Yarnham, E. B.

Bell, Matthew
Blcwitt, It. J.

Pussy, Philip
Rolleston, Colonel

Gibson, Milner;
Greenall, Peter

Round, C. G.
Rous, Captain

Bowling, Dr. Greene, Thomas Rushbrooke, Col.
Broadley, 11. Hale, R. B. So theron, T. H.
Brotherton, J. Hatton, Captain
Bruges, W. H. Hodgion, F. ISvp:
ebo nuerr, Richard
t,
ori
, iienry
Collett, John Hughes, W. B. Wilmington, Sir T.
Craig, W. G. Humpliery, Alderman Wood, Colonel T.
Currie, Raikes Langston, J. H.
Dalrymple, Captain Lennox, Lord A.
Dennistoun, John, Lowther, Sir J.
Douglas, Sir C. Manners, Lord C. S.
Duke, Sir J. Marton, George
Duncan, Goorge Morrison, dailies

TELLERS.
Vane, Lord H.
Mauls, Fox
Lockhart, IV.

DBATII OF SIR DAVID MILNE.—It is with feel-
ings of deep regret, which will be shared throughout the service,
that we announce the death of Admiral of the White Sir David
Milne, G.C.8., who was second to the gallant Exmouth at
Algiers, and who only relinquished the command.in.chief at De.
vonport a few days since. The death of this hero took place on
board the Clarence steamer, in which vessel he was proceeding to
Scotland, attended by his amiable lady and son, Captain Alexander
Milne. He was Deputy-Lieutenant of the county of Berwick, and
venerated everywhere. From the previous bad health of this gal-
lant officer, such a result was anticipated on his leaving that active
service, which alone kept him alive; but it was not anticipated
that so short a time would place him amongst the illustrious
dead. We feel we cannot do ample justice to his good
name and services in the following epitome, but nevertheless,
we shall not even at this hasty moment retrain to reca.

pitulate a few of the principal actions of one who, though
dead, will live in the country's history, and occupy a page
replete with brilliant interest and eternal honour. Sir David Milne
entered the navy in 1778, and was a midshipman in Rodney's
action. He was made a lieutenant in 1793,, and in that rank, on
board the Blanche, distinguished himself on a variety of occasions
In the West Indies. He was promoted from this vessel for his
conduct in the splendid and hard foughtaction between this vessel
and the French frigate Pique. in 1795, and afterwards commanded
this frigate at the attack on the Dutch colonies of Demerara, Ber.
bite, in 1796. In Viis frigate be also assisted in capturing the
Seine, in 1793, and, appointed to command that ship, he fought a
gallant action with, and captured the Vengeance. He received his
commission in 1783, and obtained his flag promotion as rear-ad-
miral on the 4th of June, 1814 ; and hoisting his flag on board the
Impregnable, 164, seconded the noble Exmouth in his attack at
Algiers, when his ship was fairly riddled 'with shot. He became
vice-admiral on the 27th of May, 1825, and full admiral on the 23d
of November, 1841.
MAILS FOR AMERICA.— The Cambria, Captain
Judkins, sill sail from Liverpool on the 20th, with the 'mails for
British Nortli 4nrrica, Bermuda, and the United States of the
19th inst. _ .