The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-17 00:00:00

PRISON DISCIPLINE.

Mr. MACKINNON bogged to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet (the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, whether, if he postponed his motion with respect
to prison discipline, he would have any objection to grant
certain papers which he required for the purpose d elu-
cidating the subject ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was of opinion that the dis-
cussion of the subject would be attended with the most
salutary effects, and if any papers were necessary, he
would be happy to furnish his Hon. Friend with them
before the discussion took place.
Mr. MACKINNON then postponed his motion until
that day fortnight.
ME STATE TRIALS.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved for and obtained the
following returns :—Rettirn of all moneys paid, or to be
paid, to kir. Hodges or any short-hand writer or writers
for notes taken of the proceedings in the Court of Queen's
Bench, Dublin, previous to, and during or since the
trial of, The Queen v. O'Connell and others.
Also, a return of all moneys paid, or to be paid, for any
notes taken of the proceedings at Conciliation Hall, be-
tween the Ist day of August, 1843, and the present time.
PROMOTION IN THE NAVY.

Sir CHARLES NAPIER rose to bring before the
House the present state of the naval establishment of the
country. He did so entirely from a regard to the in-
terests of the service. He had studied this subject since
the time of the war, and he thought that in the present
state of the navy list, it would be impossible to carry on
a war with vigour, in consequence of the advanced age of
the superior officers of the navy. In 1842 he brought the
subject before the House, and moved that admirals of
advanced age should retire upon a pension of 50s. a day.
He brought on that motion on the 22d of March.
In 1843 he brought the silbjeet again before the House,
and his motion was seconded by the Noble Lord, the
Member for South Staffordshire (Lord Ingestre), who
received a severe reprimand from the Hon. Baronet oppo-
site. The question was one quite unconnected with party
politics. Whatever Ministers might be sitting upon the
Treasury:benches—whether they were Whigs or whether
they were Tories—theyseereed to be equally inattentive
to the interests of the navy. He hadalluded to the subject
when the navy estimates were brought forward in 1843,
and the Right Hon. Baronet had stated that there bad
previously been a retired list, but that it had been abo-
lished by recommendation of the Commission.. Now,
the Right Hon. Baronet had spoken the truth in stating
this, but be had not spoken the whole truth. He bad
not told the House that officers were forced to put them-
selves upon the retired list to which he had alluded.
The system bad been instituted by Lord Howe,
I and it had continued until the Duke of Clarence
had been appointed Lord High Admiral, when an
alteration had taken place. The Duke of Clarence had
adopted a more just principle. He had adopted the
principle that no officer should be promoted to a flag
who had not served either four years in time of war,
five years in time of war and peace, or sit years in time
of peace. That retired list was not a voluntary retired
list —it was formed of officers who had not inte-
rest enough to procure employment afloat. It was in
fact a punishment upon officers for not having ffi sn -
cient interest with the Government to procure
employment. The Col:mission had recommended
that all these officers should be taken off the retiredlist,
and allowed the rank of rear-admiral, vice-admiral.
and admiral, but without enjoying the pay.
When he asked the Right. Hon. Baronet to give him a
retired list; it was a moderate vromiiit and 10. e vioi"wq

isurprised and astonished that the Right Hon. Baronet
a 1 found 138 gentlemen to support him in such
thing. What .ho was, to' allow officers
of sixty year's -of age to retire upan 1001. it
year. They had now ten officers retired to Green-
which Hospital upon 801, a year ; and he proposed
to increase it to 100/. a year. The Gallant 'Com-
modore then referred to the Report of the Commis-
sioners, and stated that he read it murder that the House
might understand what the retired list was. It was
necessary that he should show the House what was
the lamentable state of the British navy at the present
moment. The Honourable and Gallant Commodore
then referred to the state of the navy in 1815 and 1818.
He was aware that Government could not help
j many of the evils which existed, but still he
thought they ought to take some steps to put
an end to them, and bestow rewards with Wiper-
: tiality.• lie was actually shocked when he looked
at the returns of the respective ages of the officers
of the navy. That list showed' there w ere' only two - ad-
mirals and nine. vice-admirals under 70 years of age ;
twenty-five rear-admirels under 65. and fifteen under
60 years of age. Of the two hundred captains iir that
list, thirty were between 70 and 75 years; -forty-eight
between 65 and 70; sixty one between 60 and 63 years
of age; and fifty-one under 60 years of' age; whilst the
youngest was 52 years of age. In 1815 they had 831
captains, the average of whose age was 36. They had
837 retired captains with an average age of 31 years
and four months. They had 812 commanders and SO
retired commanders, making in all 892, with an average
age of 27 years. and six months. They had 400 flag-
lieutenants, with an averacre of 23 years 'and seven
months. n 1843 they had 720 captains, and what
would the House believe was their average age ? At
the present moment their average age was 46 years.
Now, if his Gallant Friend, who was made a captain at
17 or 18, only got at the head of the list when he was
52, what was' to be2ome of those who were only made
captair.s at 56? He•asked the House whether this was
not a Miserable state of things? He thought he had
explained. as clearly and as shortly as he could the
present state of the navy ; and he was now going to pro-
pose, not a fug remedy, because he knew to do so
would be useless. If he got the Right Hon. Baronet to
listen to him, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
perhaps tell hini that he had no money for the purpose.
But he believed there was not one man who had sat at
the Board of Admiralty for the last 30 years who had
not seen the danger they were in, and the necessity of
remedying it. He• did not believe there was a naval
officer in the House or out of it, who was not sensible of
that danger; and the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer
who sat opposite to him (Sir George Cockburn) knew
that as well as he did. He thought it most extra-
ordinary that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government, having had the evils of the system
shown to him, should persist in maintaining it. 1
The Right Hon; Baronet afterwards proposed to allow
the old -officers to sell out and young officers to purchase
in under certain regulations. At the time he proposed
tliat, the Right lion. Gentleman stated that when he
brought the matter before the Commission he had not
met with sufficient encouragement. According to the
regulations now existing, though lie .was sorry to say
they were not carried into execution, the Admiralty
could not promote more than one man in three deaths.
in the hands of the First
That patronage was entirely
Lord of the Admiralty, and he promoted whomsover he
pleased. But the Government received many applica-
tions, and being out of office.' for ten years they had a
great many hungry -fish to provide for.—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) But the number of deaths was not
equal to the number of promotions. From 1830 to 1843
there were 332 commanders made captains ; 535 lieute-
nants were made commanders ; and 939 midshipmen
Were made lieutenants. In 1815 there were 892 com-
manders, at present there were 1,135. Those were not
all regular commanders, but some of them were lieute-
nants on 7s. a day, with the rank of commander. The
lieutenants were then 4,010. Now they were
only something more than 2,000. There was
something fair in this. He did not see any objec-
tion to the selling out, and he would propose, in addition
that no officer should have any vacancy who bad not
served a certain term ; that no officer should be ap-
pointed post captain who had not served as a com-
mander for five years, and that no lieutenant should be
appointed a commander who had not served the same
period. He would also propose that a midshipman
should serve the whole of his time before he could be a
lieutenant. This would enable the, Government to give
the vacancies to officers who had served for a consider
able time. Now, if purchase were allowed, what would
take place ? Men of fortune, of family, and of influ-
ence, would press the First Lord of the Admiralty
to promote their sons.—(Hear, hear.) It was
quite natural that they should do so, and it was often
impossible to resist such applications. But the First
Lord of the Admiralty would say, I should be ek-
tremely happy to promote your son if I could, but he
must remain a commander for five years before I can
make him a post captain. If you wish to make him a
post captain, you may purchase after two years, other-
wise you must wait for two years." How would it af-
fect the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) if he wished
to obtain a vacancy for his sod ? He was very happy
to have it in his power to compliment the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite upon the great talent of his son, who
had now,he understood, become a lieutenant, not through
the Right Hon. Baronet's influence, but through having
passed a very clever examination.—(Hear, hear.) In
the case which he had supposed, the Right Hon. Baronet
would have been able to purchase one of the commissions
for sale, without taking away what belonged to others or
injuring the service. Now let them look at the case of
midshipmen. Numbers, he hesitated not to say, had
left the service disgusted at seeing others put over their
heads. If naval officers, who had served for several
years, conducted themselves with impropriety,
why let them be sent out of the service at once ;
bat when they behaved in a proper manner, they should
not be treated with so much indifference and neglect.—
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the retired list, the navy
was the only service under the Crown that had not a
voluntary retiring list. The officers in the army were
allowed to sell out, and hence a certain number of pro=
motions might take place ; but in the navy, in conse-
quence of the pernicious system which prevailed, officers
were obliged to remain until they were wholly unfit for
service. The marines should, at all events, have the
same justice done them as the artillery, but they had
not. If the artillery were permitted voluntarily
to fall back upon the retiring list, why
should not the marines ? There were captains in
that service so aged and infirm, as to be wholly unfit for
duty. A remarkable instance of this occurred in Syria
—there were 1,600 marines there, hut almost all their
captains were unable to discharge their duties—out of
the whole number of captains, only one was able to
march properly. One officer of marines was so dis-
tressed with the; fatigue of marching, • that he (Sir C.
Napier) was obliged to get a donkey for him---(Great
laughter)—he really could not go on a quarter of an hour
longer, it' it were to save the lives of all the men of the
division but for the donkey.—(Renewed laughter.)
What a state of things-1,600 young men, fit for any
sort of service with officers so aged, infirm, and
worn out as to be unfit to march with them.—(Hear,
hear.) Suppose there had been no donkey—(Laughter)
—how were they to have managed ? lion. Members
might laugh, but the fact showed • the absurdity of the
present system. He believed the Right Hon. Baronet
bad proposed to allow 150 captains to retire on 1501.
a year each. Now that would amount to 15,000/. ; but
he (Sir C. Napier) did not ask so much : all the retiring
pension which he sought for naval officers who had
reached their sixtieth year would amount to only 10,0001.
Another point which he wished to press on the attention
of the House was that they should go down lower on the
retiring list. In some instances, old commanders
who had been thirty or forty years in the service
were allowed to retire upon sixpence a day. Now was
this just, or fair, or becoming ? Those voung men
whom the Admiralty intended should fill-the post of
admirals, should be placed at once upon the Admiralty
list, so that in case of war there should be twenty or
thirty, or a sufficient number, of these officers in readi-
ness to meet the exigencies of the public service. In
the event of a war now, where were admirals to be found
who would .be capable of carrying on a blockade, or
other important hostile operations ? Why they were
not to . be. found at all. At Syria, where there
were seventeen sail of the line, most of the
young admirals were so timorous and so nervous,
arising from their inexperience, that they could not sleep
a wink at night,, whilst within sight of the land.—(A
laugh.) It would surprise him very much if the House
refused to accede to his motion. After what they had
heard a few nights ago from his Hon. and Learned
Friend behind him (Mr. Watson), he thought they could
hardly say that the parties whose claims he (Sir Charles
Napier) brought under the notice of the House were not
as deserving of consideration as those to whom his Hon.
and Learned Friend had alluded. Why it appelred I
there were four Chancery clerks receiving for sine-
cures alone 28,0001 a year.—(Hear, hear.) And
when those sinecures were about to be abolished,
these four clerks got a retiring pension. amounting to
22,000/. a year during their life, and 11,0001. a year for
seven years after they were dead.—(Laughter, and cries
of "Hear,, hear.") Another batch of • these clerks,
eighteen in number, had 49,0001 a year, and they got a
retiring pension of 26,0001 ayear.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Baronet. then alluded to the " patent during plea-
'sure," which had been abolished•by Act of Parliament,
and asked, was it fair that,- whilst Chancery clerks re-
ceived those enormous sums as pensions, such paltrycom-
and Sir T. Gordon, the latter of whom
pensation should be made to such men as Sir M. Seymour,
bSaird
more than a house rent free at Greenwich
Hospital ? No distinction should be made between the
treatmentinthustee-naing % T
navy.
otßrhiingts ,
Officerco
nelu and
v concluded
db requesting of the
In. and
-House to agree with him in the resolution - •
o Gallantoof
officers
in the army
which he would
now read to them—" That it be a recommendation to
the House that previous to the preparation of the esti-
matesfor 1844
and 1845, a plan of retirement be devised
so as to render the naval service effi • cient, and with a I
view to reward old and deserving officers."—(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said he would more especially address
the obaervations he was about to make to that portion
of the speech of the Gallant Officer which had reference .
to the department over which he (Sir R. Peel) had
control, and would leave those observations of the Gallant
Officer which were of a technical nature to be answered
Iby his Hon. Friends connected with the 'Admiralty. He
thanked the Gallant Officer for the kind notice fie had J
been pleased to take a the young man, his son, who had j
been recently promoted, not, as the 'Gallant Officer had t
observed, through his (Sir Tt, Peel's) influence, but
on account of his own merits. To be so lauded by
so distiuguished an officer as the Hon. and Gallant
Member could not fail of stimulating the young man
to pursue that line of conduct, of the success of which
the Hon. and Gallant Officer himself furnished so bril-
liant an example.—(Loud cheers.) The observations he,
Sir R. Peel, had made on a former occasion, wet's' '1 no
degree meaat to, disparage the services oe 4
or to recoramencl to the House oaval officers,
7
the towage th'.l-• too rigid economy in
_„,r deserts, but all he meant to say