The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-12 00:00:00

LONDON,
rrirrEpNpiSDA LVENING, FEHR CAR Y 12, tes4s.

'Tenth hour, he should have introduced suggestions, and
2'eeommended measures, that weuld have been so much
first more in place at the period when railway speculatiens
aommenes,d? He agreed with tee Noble Lord that
" indeed, be exceedingly ditilett!t to find in that
Howe impartial individuels— :Members unconnect, d
either directly or indirectly with these scheme s. Ile
al.ould like to s, e the subject fuirly investieated, and
therefore he had ~n a termer nieht.a,.ked the Noble Lord
!he Chancellor of the Dnehy of Lancaster, how far these
the gentlemen—men of character they were—he granted
ey were nun of integrity—how tar they were con-
Iteeted with railways? These gentlemen must found
. • •
r (pinions on party statements, themselves haeini. no
it.ntreledge of the country through which the projected
lines were intended to pass. Ile wou'l ask the Noble
anexi wh° had seteg,sted improvements in the system,
" himself tens totally free from prejudice, or from a
oti with soma of these projected lines ? For
titself with
Sibthorp) he had never been,
ad would not be connected with any railway ;
4:d for this reason, that, if called upon by
tißouse to sit a a juror on some of these
tets, he might at least be an impartial one. His
ship had, he (Colonel Sibthorp) believed, corree
Fled with a Mr. Hudson, and objected to some line
tqkommende
d by that gentleman, on the ground that it
I°llid be near his Lordship's residence, Howick Hall,
!")tti6haitts,e4 th.erefore en that account, the line, however
~wea n
to..thees'•ents of the district in other respects,
ri eiee SUMISFIik. With these remarks he would con-
auue, but ho 'hoped that the Noble Lord would explain
~ rea_PaS for delaying the suggestions he had been
deetit tilut night to make.
r" risBORNE said, that the Bill of last session had
)1_ tonsiderably modified in its passage through that
:,se,aand at last it had been passed by a sort of tacit
it-717'irr raise between the opposing parties. He thought,
4'efore, that the policy embraced by it ought not
ekteelY
,to be interfered with, and therefore he could not
%zl,) the opinions advanced by his Honourable
/leen" the Member for Greenock upon the subject.
te4°Die Lord the Member for Sunderland hail given.
tkrf description of the difficulties which he said in-
Wthrered with thn decisions of the House on the matter
Vito t),PNlcotwa fixes, hut he 'Mr. Gisherne) thought
biet,„,.l%,_vry facility with which the Noble Lord had
host 'em, was a proof that they were not of the
ter serious character. The Noble Leered hail spoke n
atieLfeelingly ef the ,xpenses incurred by the pro-
le. uf some of these schemes, h, fore they could be
,01,°.ght before Parliament, and alleged the hardship of
'the ttir`jeetion by the hoard of Trade—but what was
Bide ()use to de H. ev .1)111(1 they, in that Muse, de-
ths3 -11fPila . the to-nits of competing lin, s ? How were
4,04" Ray -whet railway eommunicetion should or
rug`
be given to such or such a place, ee by
Abel, ~,,`1110: that communication should be made ?
of "ti,""gbti depend upon it that the advanteges
s-respeeive lit es would he best tested
71•1„ 104 "il‘ntni,Sl,ll cw'stit:/t• d as wris the Roam ef
,e`11414. repel to the p I '11:1
Viet° ,17 the _ A,.t f p ,I•lintn••et to she 3 end. site
.1101,s--r'-4. Cap. 9, he sh.eild, t h Ilf• 1, 11 iti4t!t. ti,t.
111)0"-e' read such nit the Ail re/ toii to, thos,.
• , told id those giveby the. suit anent Act. -90
(tuer)t. Act directed that no rsjle;ty'shOtild.
itsti:hed ler traffic without at least a niOnth's pi-evieits
bee ding given to the Betted 'frade ; and it ern-
Psa•-„''": the 8.M.,d to susp. ed. in certain ewes, the
suet railway. The a mei could also entre., 1-
looy of rO exeinine the I.:layettes aed carriages. tied a
tne bye-laws of . each company was dlr. ct.d 'to
thttlfl to them for their approval. The Act els.). directed
„Ithe Fiord should ham the power of ordering are
• the !lea's!. and the rates and charges on each line
thietm-"lmi powers of a somewhat similar character, were
tc) the Board In the Act of Parliament. he bad
gikteect In !he last session these pevvers w, re seinels het
lava}g,
it being_ directed, in the first place, that all
'h''uld 'be submitted to a Cotentin. e the
ttrti,"l Trade, who should report to Parliament upon
k_,44l:4l.4l,_yeituttehwehrno,,ses reenpmorlitww:as not to be considered final.
waa therefere nothing in the resolution to prevent
before the House, whether the
ee of the Bead of fradereperted favourably or
e did not find anyt hire,- either in the Act of Perlis-
*tee inn'''. could he find that the Railway Committee
e_t'ellort„;sa'l3. viray authorised v. publish in the Gazette
L'qtlee,,er- or against particular lines of railway. He
ta tat:e", that the object originally designed by the ap-
..sitisithjess of-the Committee was an investigation ar.d
.latlaftht4la of facts.—(Hear, hear.) A committee of
'4l eim,se had come to the conclusion that the decision
•:4'hiva • Committee of the Board of Trade should
'attltry•lee ,4dice)thie claims of private persons.. Great in-
t°, tart' resulted from. the proceedings of the Sub-
‘lll!lia-e"7.ee. The public had been under the impression
tt-114;-)1 • •ae recess that the decisions of the Committee of
eeNts:-;• '3l Trade would be supported by the Govern-
short, the • considered them all but final and
▪ to litLe- It was they
the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
p, iee",,4'spelled the delusion on the first night of the.
jin"" •great mischief had previously resulted.
which the Committee reported in favour of,
'qilst eAr shar reatly increased in price,
mein Allot " g
e reported against, whatever their
tliCiegut he, received a great discouragement from
'47 on they of the Board of Trade. It resembled a
ee'lltdi-ss"e turf. There was quite as much speculation,
t-ittikeQc.ired in these respects, that the amount at stake
e_ Frio larger, and that the event of the race could not
',o4lwiwanutil it was over, whilst the decisions of the
4Y' 'Co • known they were
1414 ransittee became before
kq'itts t, --(Hear, hear.) He did not attribute any dis-
ixibehe,;.,anY Member of that Committee, far from it,
tilit,,7, them to be teen of integrity and honour
• ea-s: Ithnossible for any man not to see that, in
the decisions of the Board of Trade, respect-
:l4y
v'e or railway, were predicted with a degree of Fer-
Zett,.e,,„rY strange and striking. Where seven or eight
pctilLrusted ,vith a secret, it was very hard to pre-
et;rratapat. hit,sviolable privacy which was in this case so
°Ottie men lest their memorandum-beols ;
40d ;.--" were eenenenicative to their wives; and others
qs 41. their I In short, there ;were several
th. 1,„ s ef.p.
prat*itfir wnieh a secret might he divulged in such a,
010 e °tit ail breach
;Ka ji;llllllittee, of honour or duty on the part
Unless there was any great advan-
ttr.ii arrrlngement as the present, it was not
di
subject a hotly of men to the odium-end
.
ad
t^nreh su.-h a situation entailed. it was ~ere
aiti each e'nvinee . public where such temptations
I.vhepoPPortnnitles present, d themselves, and ebove,
tiqtlte had rran•h was et be Vain!, by .I.s 'beam. that
tlia' lied been no fa s- de a 1 eg. The greseest
tee 'tot te,ien thrown upoe the Beard of' Tr.], and he
vita'arc eve that any goer' they could effict would
''anve
the er the. distrust their decisionswould in-
c
di,Lltrati, 'tete. Again, he did not believe it possible, with
I.4vultal,;lnil ('' information which the Committees had 1,1 Its
VI: that th- opperetunities they had for investga
line 'and tet deceie with a full knewledge of the
t 4 thf.ir hat they loop) Itheir trio' meet, respect. d
eoterettle.s at,d justice. How could
mdaf railwP
•.1 the respecti ye. met its of 240 projected
ire tldt p in every part of Eneland. I, e,and, and
huts 4 ° he sure they hail maps and ordnatice
I'4 het, ,Judge from, and the testimony itf witnesses,
tistikltie,l were these things where the fullest 1 cal. in-
he e vequi4 te Ile thought some less ohj, c-
r...l4luutial 'be devised than the present, and
!n°reover that the Committee of the Board
pat,: It'ssunn-d to' them-,lves a pewer hich the
t::,Yer intended they should assume.
" ORTLEY said he considered that the
itzlst,to 1,(:,1 the Board of Trade had been appointed to
tta rhainent tl-e merits of rival sch. raps, and
%ul:Letier(tV,eeditic's would tett condueted in such a mariner
thtiqlkliim:B:te the confidence of the public, and be of
deeirietance to the House. But when they published.
Istlteebfic'ha before they were communicated to Perlis
'C'eenladelleethe grounds upon which they arrived at them
tql,:toplai,,-,"°wo, he thought the public had just cause
V't t-},' Re could not however, approve of' the
ite-;lNebrite Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland.
hti"'ea upeo 1-mrd h.ad admitted the propriety of deciding
ea-wPonio. 1.1, the different schemes, and the impolicy of
tb coyld vtlyer, consideration to another year ; but
lei deeidu,B be done, it the whole: 250 proj,:cts were
htillt°4l, bY any one tribunal? In his opinion the
eiwity qtaver it might be, which was to decide upon
11;41 the en3_ munieations ought to decide, not merely
la. lin Preference of rival schemes, but which was the
tin e• N
tish - hot h °"v the best line as it often happened,
e pro e s
Itet e Poseo at all ; it might emurace a por-
klia fittrtherteta ; but the present tribunal did not go
11%1ot tiorikt,,an the schemes proposed. Further, he
to the Government, by any mode of organise-
je~ as thy .'",",ge of such a multitude of projects, extend-
Ntqld• over the whole face of Great Britain and
t4l 'tole antivould be a task which no Government, how-
lkitlPlrit'tent "sidhou9, could ace( mplish, He felt that
fade (I,ed
aorganisation and machinery was imperfect,
l' WARI;;IneIIY would be speedily supplied.
eetv I:l4ottaii,;4
jUiyoli,TwOitNh felt assured that the Board of
rd's' Pr " rik) adopt any measure by. which to inter-
-44e1" IA- the large mass of capital now
1,‘14_,„0/nd „Ivt.eit.road speculations in this country, and the
h interference would be, that those sprcus
etiejtakit,`,4,...lmroediately transfer their capital to similar
atria r 3, ia" lo fereign countries. The laws of' this
tests4ll.4t, and the
to railroads, were so exceedingly
ts . ea )dotage to the speculator who in•
r...r capital
etlee • In foreign lines so many, that any in-
sfiltie.ritaz'siettivt:!heatipteitat
ists w .1d
nglish lines that would not be en-
htd ern resort , on have the effect ef in-
-4_011,41e iistetw for-eh. n countries.—(Hear.)
loeld of the l.,_"111-1 considerable attention to the
vi,nleryt
ihaggtirntefial.:_trisialnirnt,ph,eeiirit.o,l.nnOrctiunderland ; but he
thate. lt schemeshould
-tr'en.ityerdent.b;ite_hen would be
ll be recol-
tlesed ;linps pro'peoiedw(!uld be employed to survey the
11° ; ° he the ariv , to report upon what they con-
'Noe t en to
t.,
their and disadvantages of each
ae(itite
the,, tak.le
ef eir report before Parliarnsnt, who
tin,. ;Yon matter off their hand., and finally
•
_.(4)e ere _ ) had resolved
con,
lithe was the best plan ; that was one
gn
09, Prop.-sal of the Noble Lord was, that.
upon a (Truth, line should
et: d
01)7 1 arltate
Nee, their entary Committee, having first de
're anA " nod that Committee were to call for
th declare in
Zchtle b,se effect of favour of the lowest. W hat
at „ such >1 curse be ? W he this—it
Ntae.le fur " • y ') a certain Company upon
mon.,p,a t .
y •
44
.ecrtain term of
Nitro_ toe e years. Now, surely the
reaselotitus to warr_"ly..rnbarked in the whole scheme
e ached this Ny0,11(1,4:11' tn.t..lat House in coming to such a
Atappove utmost meet, be declaring that they had
v
telitopue4t4etasi:aonobieezta
at'foolm_seilrow. that tub) abt
rissu.ihkiciyh
litht Siine4ts -were arge of perfection.—(Hear, hear.)
ti
Retie_
‘%,) haeeen beig mad, every
more
is
camaye
f;
ea%
dvavn3aden
at
ari
ears
-t
one, could not be approved of and
; 11"' the 10
btAtU4Qber e,..ntrart tender had been ac-
_t state , of evar_ to hold god for
' ett-, "'tags *- This would bring about a
that wvitTedy thisTehveirieore he ecni
Sehte'leable to "I would involve the
veeerntiomeinnodt ien try!
end • maze.
tt/ $46 t° 441:113 the''f but the adoption of ono rule,
ettesel
.ullest and fairest competition,
I'l'4. MUM
• Y to new oomphaies to corn-

Pete f,.,r new lines.—(Hear, hear.) Incited, to impressed
was he with the justice and fairness of this plan, that
he felt convinced, when the subject came to be fully con-
sidered by the liou.e, this would be the rule which they
would ducide was the best. Be Was also in favour of
the Committees on these Bills being limited, my to five;
f,:r the fewer their nurni?er were, the better would. they
tie enable 1, with,nt much difficulty, to aerie: at a con
scientii;us o.ociusinn.

Mr. BA NKES—The lion. Member had argued in fa-
vour of the principle of encouraging competition. Now,
he (Mr. Banks) contended that that would not be a be-
neficial course to adopt, for it had had the effect of
checking railway speculation in the county he repre-
sented. In that county several propositions for different
lines of railways had been put forward by distinct and
very powerful and wealthy bodies; but there were twenty
to one—or, indeed, he might say a much larger propor-
tion of the inhabitants of that counts in favour of the
South-Western Company's line.— ((-tear, hear.) That
line was looked upon as one of the highest importance
by the inhabitants of the county, because it proposed to
pass through a part of the county having at present
other railroad, in which the existing roads • --"n
means good. The land through whir},.ereere by no
should pass was rich and ft; it was intended it
the district had not b,. 1
0, and the inhabitants of
moans the necessary faeili•ies
of transit, by lend
•;
le,nd'or water; while, on the other
hand, .tie line proposed by the other company passed
"inrOugh a part of the county where the inhabitants were
in the full enjoyment of all those advantages ; and,
therefore, the inhabitants of the southwestern district
had not only to look forward to gaining all those advan-
tages, by getting this line of railroad, but also the addi-

tiOreal one of a renewal of the traffic between London
and Exeter; and furthermore, it was quite clear
that this would be the line by which the public would
prefer to travel, while without it the people of that part
of the county would in fact be to some extent isolated.
One other fact in favour of the South-Western line, in
prefertnce to that of the Great Western, was, that a
distance of about 150 miles woted be saved by it.—
(livar,hear) lie had heard it stated that the Board of

Trade had decided in favour of the Great Western line,
and that they had recommended a combination of the
two companies. If that were the fact, the consequence
would he that the county. would get the worst coasting
liar ; whereas the South-Western line would have been
an excellent coasting line, fir it proposed to proceed by
Exett r.--(Heat.) He did not :gate this as a fact that
had conic within his own knowledge ; but he had been
told that such was the case. With regard to the Com-
mitter divt&ing any 14ormation u:,on the subject before
their report was published, he should say he did not
think any member of the Committee would do anything
of the kind ; but it should be recollected that there wet,
many hands t- r..ngh which those reports passed—such
as printers art (eh. rs ; and though. he would not say
hat the latter were tare capable ..f divulging- that, Ivhiete
sit uld not to made pubLc than those in big hr-r station,
%et, as the de eisions of- the C..mmatce had to pa,
itinAtOi 1111711.\ Panots. great iniury was the result. Ie
wood that it the Gr. at ‘Veste.i.
e slit el he amp:. ri in preferenot• to the South-W es-
b-rn. they c' ti Id do !yoking !mire, and should accept it ;
bit.- he did tie latter would nr.t oc het sight
Sir 1-{. PEEL did hOpethat tle_Housewould postpone
(It'Ultiii,n upon the sub Act for the ewnt.
—( Hear. [mar.) 11, ha:; no doubt but that nom); of th,
.-I the lioord of Trade w.-re ',pen to I e
f,tult with, - arid th :t good and ..ufficient .:rounds could
he sr,‘,ed for don g so—(!lear, hear)—but it wits
utterly. impossi• le, he conceived, tar the Hous.

yei to say defiOtively what course they should
adopt in reierence to this subject.—(lle,r. Iv sr.) Hi, -
ing heard the statement of his Hon. Friend he cot&
only ay that, if the Board of Trade could be shown to have
come to am inconsiderate or impolitic decision, and it he
eouid show the t• a better line for the county generally
r ad been proposes.; then that said to have be n approved
of, he f It assured that that line would receive every con-
raion and attt ntion.---(Hear, hear.) It was not so
much upon the decision that the Board of Trade should
have arrived at on any particular line of railroad, that so
mach depended, as on the statement they should make
of the grounds upon which they had arrived at such de-
cisions.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, the value of those deci-
sions would entirely dap.•nd upon those grounds ; and he
felt cer ain that the board would show that they were
not deserving of em•d4mnation.—(llk ar, hear.) But it
should be remembered that that Board had not long been
in office ; they were only appointed last session, and
were the mere creation of himself and his colleagues.
That Board had been censured bemuse of their reports
or decisions having got publicity at an improper time.
He did think that a serious charge ; but, at the same
time, he would say that he conceived it most conducive
to public convenience that . those reports should be de-
clared at as early a period as possible ; for, if they held
over those • deci ions for two or three months, there
would be then such an enormous emu-milt-lion of busi-
ness, that those reports would be much more likely to
gain publicity than by the course the Board had hitherto
adopted ; but he did think the Board had adopted a
wise and judicious course in reserving to themselves,
until the proper time had arrived, their reasons for the
decisions they had come to ; while, had they kept the
whole a secret forthat time, it would have been much more

likely to prove injurious. In two or three daye, the House
would have the report of the Board, and that would be
accompanied by a-general-statement of the grounds that
had Ird them to concur in those views with reference to
certain lines ; and until then, •he did hope the House
would postpone giving expression to its judgment.—
(Hear, hear.) He did also hope that the House would
not come to a resolution to abandon the general
principle upon which the Board had been acting, until
they had given it a fair trial, and were convinced by ex-
perience tlva it was.
.hear.) They had
heard it stated that there. were 240 lines of railroad to
be proposed. That was an enormous number ; yet he
had little doubt, when they came to be looked into, they
would be very consideralAy reduced ; but were they to
come down to 100, still the amount of labour would be
very great.—(Hear.-hear.) -His Noble Friend opposite-
had appled for the appointment of a Committt e ;
he-
f.ire that could be granted, some reports of the Board of
Trade would be brought forward, and they would be
found to form a material element in the discussions of
that Ci-mmittev.—(Hear.) The Committee, when it.
sh-uld be appointed, would find it desirable to adopt
some principle by which they should be guided.
—( Hear, hear.) If the Members .of that Corn-
mittee sl,o7thf be • confined to a• small limit.
s,ly five or 'sovun, and if they fete constant and puretual
anendanco to the bu•intss befiwe them, wt.ether they
old tt:4l6' dissent from the report of the Board
of Trade, he bad no doubt the labour of the Committee
moull have great influence with the House.—(Hear.)
The, Committee would find it nt.eessary, perhaps, to have
wit eesses t.l.ought b‘-fore them, to give evidence on loc4l
peetiliarities, alit he could riot see why they could not
apply the principle adopted by diction Committees
to that branch.—(Hear. hear.) But supposing that this
Committee were appointed .to consist of only five Mem.
hers, from which those possessed of. local knowledge
upon any particular line were to be excluded front
giving evidence, and-that the, power of dr ciding upon a
line was to• be transfirr, d to the Committee, the Noble
Lord might despair of this House ever doing anything
satisfactory on the subject.—(Hear.) He (Sir IL Peel)
did not think that this House ought to transfer such a

power to a 'Committee, or any other body.—(Hear.) In
fact, if the Noble Lord's plan were adopted, he (sir R.
Pee.) would look upon it as nothing more nor less than
a total revolution of the law at present regulating rail-
road projects.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had ex-
pressed a fe..ir that parties would be likely to invest their
capitsl in foreign speculations ; that was a good reason
why the decisions of the Board of Trade should be as
prompt as possible.—(:!ear, hear.) The plan of the
Noble Lord, he (Sir R. Peel) conceived, it would be im•
po-sible to adopt, for it would amount to this, that the
Government should appoint new surveyors to survey all
the lines proposed to be run in England, Scotland, and
Ireland. That operation-would occupy a long time, and
what would be the effect of it ? Take, suppose, the
line from Waterford to Kilkenny ; that had been going
forward ; and would it not create the greatest surprise
and confusion if that line was to be stopped until a
Government surveyor could have survey ed the line 1—
(Hear, hear.) In like manner, were the works that had
been going on for the last twelve or fourteen months, on
some of the lines in this country, to be put a stop to,
or suspended until the House had laid before it the Go-
versment engineers' report, for the proposition was, in
fact, tantamount to that ?—(Hear, hear.) He did not
know what the effect would be upon the country, if the
Government were to take up the management and direc-
tion of railroads.; but he very much doubted, if the
Government did adopt such a course, the country would,
ab initio, be the better for it.—(Hear.) now could the
Government decide upon what was and what was not
the best line ? Suppose a line to run between any two
towns were proposed, how could the Government
acquire local knowledge sufficient to guide them in
coming to a judicious decision ?—(Hear, hear,) Would
it not be much better to rely upon the knowledge of those
who were on the spot, and who, therefore, could alone
give this information ?—(Hear.) Ile conceived it would,
and therefore he would say, it was from such only that
such information should be derived.—(Hear. hear.)
They did not want to interfere in these speculations.
They gave speculators the preference, stipulating, how-
ever, that certain preliminaries should be carried out for
the benefit of the public generally, but more particularly
for the benefit of the poorer classes. By pursuing this
course they did not di turb the ordinary course of. busi-
ness. But winst would be the case if they followed the
suggestion of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunder-
land ? Why the Government would be overwhelmed
with the magnitude of the labour impos,-d upon them,
and the result would he that not a single railway Bill
would be passed. With all respect for the suggest.on of
the Noble Lord, he thought it would be injudicious,
th, reforr, for the Government to adopt it, and what he
would propose was, that they should imme.
dietely address themselves to the con-nation of a Select
Committee to consider ha t would be the best mode
of pi-civet-ding with respect to' these railway. Bills. It
would be necessary, however, for then) to wait till they
code see the report of the Board of Trade, and hear
the general principles which they had adopted in coming
to their conclusions. The Board of Trade had not yet
decided upon the merits of the three York lines, but lie
had no doubt when the report did appear .the represen-
tatives of the two lines reported against would start up
and make speeches, to show how much better their lines
were to the one which had been adopted by the Board
of Trade. There, might also be surmises hazarded that
the gentlemen connected with the successful line had
some influence with the Government, but in his opinion
these assertions should be received with. extreme cau-
tion, or not listened to at all. In conclusion, lie hoped
the Hon. Member would agree with him, that in the
meantime they should not interfere with the present
practice Orlhe House, but at once proceed to take into
consideration, by means of a Select Committee, the bi at,
mode of ii,po ing of these Bills.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES explained that he represented no line.
1 He merely stated his opinion as to which line he thought
most benefit :the county with which he was connected.

_. .. ...-..~ ~. J__....

,o 7

After a fewe words from Mr. J. RUSSELL, who was
quite inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. \VAKLEY said the -Right Honourable. Baronet
had made an excellent speech on the subject of railways,
but the great difficulty which he had adverted to on a
former occasion, h,, haul altogether passed over in utter
sif. nee: -Now he wished to know what. was to be clone
with tl-ie•barristers?—(Langhter.) They would be vic-
timised' if the: railway Bills AN erP to be- disposed of by
five or Committees of that House. Now he wished
to know the Members of that House were to be left
to - the interminable" addresses of barristers P—
(L•tughter.) Barristers would make no submission ex-
cept to members of their own profession, and the ques-
tion which naturally loose was—what persons could be
placed in authority. This the Right Hon. Baronet ad-
mitted, On a tomer orensi:m, was the great difficulty to
be dealt with, but still he had •not touched n^•
the speech he had just made. In
to the law of -a ' -~~'H~sing themselves
their regret
usteisters constantly expressed
•
wh^
_ -tor& they were not addres:‘ittp; ttentreiiien
svere learned in the le;e`. Notwithstanding the
T'Lenilcmen sitting iii the 'Committee were makers of the
law, Barristers constantly regretted that they were not
learned in the law, and that they could not of conse-
quence comprehend the legal arguments which were
applied to the question. Now in a paper of that Morn-
ing—ft paper of considerable influence—the Malt-
ing Chronicle-laid the Morning Chronicle only ex.
pressed in a great measure what was the pub-
lic opinion upon this subject,—they would find a
part of the question discussed. It was a . part
which must not be overlooked, because it itaa perfect')
notorious that the time 'of Committees was monstrously
occupied by the addresses of learned gentlemen. As
he had stated moreover on a former night, these Com-
mittees were adjourned again and again for the purpese
of allowing barristers of extensive practice, who hap-
re•ned to be engaged in another place, the opportunity
of attending to address them. It was, he said, a noto-
rious practice ; and what did the public press say with
regard to these tribunals, formed by that House, as ex-
pressed to-day in the Morning Chronicle? It was ne-
cessary that the House shou:d have a correct view of
the subject, and he would quote to them what was said.
The Morning Chronicle says—" It may be that counsel
do in these Railway Committees make gold out of iron
with ' express .train haste ; peradventure also the fees
are out of all proportion to the amount, intricacy, or dif-
ficulty, of the business done; but then it is not for doing
the in4ness - eminent, eloquent, and able men are re-
tained, but for•overmasteriug the Committee."------(Hear,'
hear.) Thus the House e,awlint the barristers controlled

the dommiftee and made them decide, not in accord-
ance with truth 'and justice, but in accordance with what
was abselutelfcontrary to either truth or justice. Coun-
sel were employed, it was edmitted, for the purpose of
overmat;tering the t citionittee. Now, what was the re-
medy proposed was this—" Elevate your Parlia-
mentary tribunal to the,i-itelleetual station of your Par-
!iament:lry,b,roind the remedy for prolixity, diffuseness,
the tro,!net on of extraneou, matter, and such shock-
-1,.r had law, that it can only he called 4 •Crowner's
'que,t law,' was to-ar at hand. matters offitet, allow
;our C,mtnittee the juror', prOvinee, but in matters of
law, aid theta by a c4,mpetent legal Asst,ssor, having judi-:
cial rrsenSitatiy,'and, OF course-,'" :squning
power." In ether words, they mn-t provide, out of
,hat gpolemen who had sufficient intellectuality
capscity 4,f to contend with the hired barristers
who pie :d on those occasions. This was a compliment
to be sure. He did not say it was wholly untrue, but it
was certainly not very complim-ntary. The remedy for
" prolixity, diffusene,s, the introduction of extraneous

matter, and such sf,ocling bad law, that can only be
called Crowners"quest law,' was near at hand."
" Crowners"quest law," indeed. He was surprised
!low it could be spoken disrespectfullt of, because the
lawyers, chile in office, get the law into such ill
repute—(Hear, hear)—that now unother profes-
sion had taken the office, it was a matter of
great difficulty for them to extricate it. Now the
writer went on to say, "It is not from any vulgar greedi-
ness of gain as is grossly and ignorantly imputed that
counsel now waste the time of Committees in frivolous
speeches, but it is because they level themselves down,
be it said, to the intelligence of a Parliamentary tri-
bunal. High in mere wordy, but low, very low, in
judiciel intelligence. Placing no reliance at all in the
judicial discrimination of their judges." That was what
was done by counsel. Ile believed this was written by
an able mana man of great intellectual power, and' a
barrister himself. "Plicing 'n6 'reliance at all on the
judicial discrimination of their judges, Parliamentary
counsel do undoubtedly often address to Committees the
most preposterous. propositions in law, and finding such
absurdities tolerated, contend for victory, and sometimes
obtain it, often in the teeth of the law, of fact, and com-
mon justice." He very much feared that the proposal
which had been made would not prove to be of a less
obnoxious character. Public opinion was adverse to
the occupation-of that House with regard to railways. It
was believed that there were men in that House who
were personally interested in speculations, that came
before them, and they were therefore decided upon, -
not in accordance with the public good. Nothing
could be more unfortunate for the character
of the Legislatnre than that such an opinion should
generally prevail, but the feeling certainly was
prevalent, - and he . did not believe that any
proposition which had been made to that Reuse
could have in the slightest degree the effect -of -mitigat-
ing this feeling. So long as this tribunal was main-
tained, so long would that House be doubted—so
long would their decisions be impugned. In that House
there was, no doubt, many who were personally interested
in the speculations that were brought b.,fore them, but the
Board of Trade- was constituted of highly respectable
men—men who;it was thought, were far removed from
the -slightest imputation. Nevertheless; allusions had
been made to:the-decisions of that Board, and there were
many who doubted those decisions which particularly
related to rail Ways. Now, as he had stated, it was
thought the Board would nett be open to imputations,
but still insinuations had been thrown out stgain4 it,
and he did net think it likely that the five or six Coin.
mittees proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet
would be more fortunate in escaping from doubt. Now,
let him read an extract from a public newspaper called
The Econmni&t. • -It was published by a highly respect-
able and well-known person, and contained a statement

of a very serious character. It was with reference to
what had been going on in railway matters, and he could
not help, waiting to remark that these things ought to
be known and, duly considered before any Committee
was appointed, and, in fact, before anything was done
with reference to railways. The writer, inicommenting
(won Mr. Gla(Mone, the late President of tile
Hear). of Trade, stated, " That there was no doubt,
nor was there -reason to b,lieve, that any one
connected with the Board of Trade was interested in
railways ; but since the appointment. of Sir James
Graham's private secretary, a circumstance of a sus-
piciOus character had occurred. lie (Mr.'Wakley) did
not knew how it was the Right 1 on.Baroeet's name eas in-
tro.lueed, because he ben( ved the Hight lion. Baronet
(lid not exercise the remotest influence in the appoint-
ment of the gentleman to which allusion httd been made.
—(Hear, ilea(.) The writer. went: 'thf, to state, that
shortly after the appointment of Me O'Brien, his
brother was engaged by the South-Eastern 'Railway
Company as manager. The standing orders required
that railway companies intending to make application
for an Act of Parliament in the next session, should
deposit their plans with theßoard of Trade before thelsth
(4* November. After that day, however, it was well
known that this order could not be complied with by the
South-Eastern line, and., in consequence, it was impos-
sible fur them to go through Parliament in the next
session. This caused a considerable fall in their shares,
but, notwithstanding, towards the end of December,
Mr. O'Brien increased his stock of shams by several
hundreds. To the surprise of every railway speculator,
on the 17th the report of the Board of. Trade on the
further lints which they had had under their-
consideration; appeared ; and in this report was
contained the name of the railway' proposed
by the South-Eastern Company, although it
was considered to be entirely out of Court. The pro-
. posed line was-favourably reported, and on the following
day a notice was, posted on the Stock Exchange in the
usual coarse -of business, stating that if one hundred
shares in the new line sold at ei premium were not taken
up, they would be bought in by Mr. Scott. These
shares were worth .221.1- each, and it was conjectured
that this was only a small portion of the quantity Mr.
O'Brien had purchased.. Now he asked the Right Hon.
Baronet, or any other person, whether it was possible
that such a statement as this could go forth to the public

without producing. the greatest possible injury upon the
veracity of the Railway Board? If these statements
were not put an end to, it would involve the country
inconsiderable difficulty. It was next to impossible,
.under the adverse circumstances in which they were
placed, to hope to make any proposition.which should
receive the general concurrence of the House or the
public. The whole subject was one of difficulty, for the
interests involved in it extended to every part of the
land. Placed in these difficulties as they were, he should
fur once propose placing a barrister in an official situa-
tion, for he believed it would be quite impossible to get
through the business which would have to come before
them, without placing some legal gentleman at their
head. The Bight Hon. Baronet was mere a friend to
the barristers than he was, and he trusted he would adopt
his suggestion, and appoint some person of legal ex-
perience and ability to the office. It was mon-
strous that under the present system a railway
company .could not procure a Bill in that House;
and several hundred thousand Pounds. fifty, sixty,
or eighty thousand pounds, were ordinary sums
paid for Bills, and he thought it was high tine a
reformation should be introduced in this portion of their
proceedings. It was asked, in the paper he had just
quoted from, what he would think of a gen-
tleman making a speech about the inordinate gains of
Sir Astley Cooper or Sir Benjamin Brodie? Bu• there
was no similarity between the two cases: because in
the one instance there was not that extravagant public
expenditure as in the other. Why counsel were en-
gaged, at one and the same time, in four or five Com-
mittets, and -sometimes more. This rendered it fre-
quently necessary that one of them should be adjourned,
and of course injured the public interest. But when
gentlemen were paid to speak by the h air or the day. he
was not surprised they should use their influence to pro-
tract their inquiries. He said, then, it was necessary
something should be done to remedy this, if they wished
to restore the confidence of the public in their pro-
ceedings..

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said—Nothing was farther
from his intention than addressing the House on this ques-
tion, but as his name bad been directly introduced in the
discussion, he felt it necessary to trouble the House with
one or two remarks. Allusion had once or twice been
made to him in the debates on railways, but he believed
that was the first time his name had been directly men-
tioned. For upwards of thirty years he had had the
honour of holding a seat in that House, and during the
whole of that period he had taken an active part in the
public and private busiLess brought under consideration.
Bat his principal object rising to Wrests the Rouse

•L' \ ' - . ,
was ere state, that never in the whole Course of his'Nr.;
liamentarY career.- had . lie -been—connected Cllr, ctly
or indirectly with any railway company whatsoever:
In the course of the discussion which had taken place,
referecee had been made to two gentlemen with whom
he bad been,acqietinted. Both. those gentlemen had held
commissions .in the arms' ; ttnd' having, afters girds
made their sviy in life had forind it not, inconsistent With
their honour or,character to fortn.connexions with rail-
ways. One of those ventlemen had .I),,en induced to give
up his connexion with a railway company, and to aecept
the office of his (Sir J: Graham's) private secfetsfe.
(Sir J. Graham) had entertained the highest opinion of
that gentleman's integrity and ability, and he
disappointed. But he (Mr. n'n-' '
J. Graham) to ..--nsens went from-him (Sir
Tr f,reaCitt °Mee at the hoard or Trade.
eturrßralltklii) rooptted his litsN ektrbidely, and
had nothing to do With his aiipointnient to. Chet Board.
tie arss,, hove era,. appoitited oh ilib coilditioti that any
tolinekioil which. he had with railways should be dis-
solved, and that the shares which he possessed should be
sold ; and in the month of October last, as he was in-
formed by Mr. O'Brien! -that gentleman's shares were
sold. But it wee understood that these *he held
the seep or first ttlidtirhottt of Shares, must sign
the deed, Mid it was in that way the name
of Mr. O'Brien appeared now as connected
with the railway company. But he (Sir James
Graham) was assured by Mr. O'Brien, upon his
honour, that the sale of the shares Was attllally effected
in October. The gentle Tian whose name was referred to
la the Pronomiat newspaper, was not the same, but his
brother. He also had served in the army, and was now
corn cted with the South-Eastern Railway, and both
these gentlemen had given him (Sir James Graham)
the strongest assurances, upon their honour, that neither
directly nor indirectly had any communication been
made by either of them to the person alluded to, as
having taken advantage of information obtained from
the Board of Trade. No one could regret more than he
did, that any such suspicion should arise as to the con-
duct of any person connected with a department of the
Government ; and he trusted the House would not think
that he acted improperly, if, on the first impulse, he had
risen to state the facts as they were, as far; at least, as
he was cognisant of them, or concerned with them.—
(Hear, hear.) If there were any suspicions on the part of
any Member of the [louse with respect to the purity of
the conduct of either of those gentlemen, it was matter
of enquiry.—(Hear.) Let that inquiry be instituted, and if
they were not able to exculpate themselves to the satis-
faction of the House—altheugh he had the highest
opinion of their honour and fidelity, he would say, let
them stand or fall.—(Hear.) Still he would say, that
their character, that the character of men who had
served with distinction and credit, ought not to be whis-
pered away, when a direct charge could be Made against
them, and if true, be easily substantiated.—(Hear.)
Now, although he could not apply to the Honourable
Gentleman opposite—( Mr. Wahley)—the compliment
which that gentleman had paid to his Right Hon. Friend.
at the head of the Government ; namely, that he had
made a premien' and useful speech. ha yet agreed with
him in much that he had said. Boot -he could not agree
e,ll.ll_llitri in What he had said en the authority of the
Morning Ciaoniele,thit•the intellect and information of
the Hon.e of Comuions Was below the intellect and in-
formation of th, Bar, and that its committees ought to
be elevated to the standard of the profession ith which
those tribunals hold to contend --(Hear, hear.) With
respect to the Committee of the Board of Trade, he
would only remind the House that three of its members
had served with credit, and with irreproachable honour
in the army, and that the other two members, who were
civilians, had always been spoken of in the highest
terms by the other side of the House.—(Hear. hear.)
But with respect to the Committees of the House, he
would esk. have we art ived at the day when the reprs-
sentativ, s of the p• ople—acting before the public and
in the face of dny—were not competent to consider
questions of this kind?—(Hear, hear.) He was of
opinion that if these inquiries were conducted in such a
manner as to brine. public opinion to bear upon them,
the difficulties would be overcome, and the duty would
be performed with satisfaction to the public. As there
were in the House so many Members of the legal pro-
fession, he was ashamed to say in their presence any-
thing in defence of the " long robe," to which this
country owed so much. But he could not avoid saying
that, without the aid of the gentlemen of the bar, they
-would not be able to conduct the private business of the
Committees with satisfaction to the country.—(Hear,
hear.) What would people say if they had not the
freest choice of the lawyers to whom they should en-
trust the care of their interests, if they were to be
bound by rules, and fettered in their selection of legal
advisers?—(Hear, hear.) People thought themselves
entitled to have the ablest men, and to be left to their
own free judgment in the cFoice. It was the
duty of . the representativee of the people to sacri-
fice their own time and convenience, rather than pre-
vent the gentlemen who were selected to explain
and defend private rights and interests from the fullest
advocacy of those who entrusted their affairs to their
advocacy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the speeches
of counsel before the Committees, he must say that he
thought they were limited as much as possible-; and, as
far as he had observed, an intimation from the chairman
was always sufficient to curtail a. speech.—(Hear.) He
entirely concurred in the observations of his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government. He thought that
the discussion would do good, and he could not regret
that it had taken place. He felt that he ought to apolo-
gise to the House—(No,- no)—but he could only say
that, situated as he was, anything that affected his public
character required the earliest and fullest explanation.
Mr. WAKLEY said that he had not read the paper to which
he referred ten minutes before he spoke; and, as he found the
name of the Right Hon. Baronet mentioned in it, he thought
he should have acted unjustly if he had not called his atten-
tion to it.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that as his Hon. Friend the
Member for Finsbury had complained of the length of speeches
of counsel, he thought it only, just to say that the length of
Members' speeches might more reasonably be complained of.—
(A laugh.) He thought that every Member of the Howse who
was liable to' be placed upon a Committee ought to do as he
did, that was, never to have anything whatever to do with
railway shares.
Mr. DARBY said that the working of Railway Committees
was very much improved, and he thought it no more neces-
sary to have a lawyer as an assessor than to have a medical
man.—(A laugh.) He admitted that in some particular in-
stances long speeches were made, but when private interests
were involved it would be unwise to allow parties to go away
with the impression that they had not been able to lay their
whole case before the Committee.
Mr. WALLACE would be very brief in what he had to
say. He had often served on Railway Committees, and he had
notimd the mem:louvres of agents and c unsel to prevent a do ci-
sion being come to, by talking on until it was announced that
the Speaker was in the chei .--(A laugh.) But if ever he
should be Chairman, he should adopt tie practice that was fol-
lowed in the House of Lords, and appoint the adjournment at
nine o'clock. He was exceedingly glad that this discussion had
taken place, 'She believed it would call the attention of the
public to the subject. He would now withdraw the motion.
The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
MEDICAL OFFICERS llst POOR-LAW UNIONS.
Mr. WA K L rose to move for a return containing a de-
scription of the diplomas, licences, or other letters testimonial,
that are admitted Ind sanctioned by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners as legal qualificrions which entitle medical practi-
tioners to be appointed medical officers of poor-law unions in
England and wales. The Poor-law Amendment Act had ex-
cited the utmost confusion among medical men with reference
to the persons qualified to hold the office of medical effacer to a
poor-law union. By that Act, power was given to the Poor-
law Commissioners of appointing and dismissing pail officers ;
and these, of course, included the medical officers. The Medical
Ass,:ciation of London had been constantly discussing the
subject, and much anxiety was felt amongst that body.
In 1842 the Poor-law Commissioners endeavoured to reiredy
the evil complained of, and a general order was issued. This
order stated that any person holding a diploma from any of
the medical institutions of this country was qualified for
the office of medical officer to a poor-law union, but the order
made no mention of persons holding diplomas from institutions
in Scotland and Irelaud. All such persons were consequently
excluded. and this bad given great dissatisfaction in Scotland
and Ireland. Applications had been made to the Poor-law
Commissioners on the subject, and in 1843 the question. was
submitted to Sir Frederick Pollock, the then AttoraeyGene-
ral, and Mr. Martin, who 'gave it as tl-eir opinion that any
person holding a diploma, from any medical Institution! either
in Scotland or Irelaud, was eligible. for the office to which he
had alluded. Now it was a cerious .circumstance that, not-
withstandingr
been
altered.
thisT opinion,he
object
of
cure from the Poor-law Commissioners a clear and distinct
statement of the qualifications which were deemed t? be neces-
sary to entitle any medicalgentleman.to hold the situation of
medical officer to any poor-law union.
the
ehis generalmot 7citheerret
2 was h t
d never
o
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it was not his intention to op-
pose the motion of the Hon.-Gentleman. It was quite true
that the right of parties holding-diplomas in Scotland or Ire-
land to practice in poor-law unions Was a matter involving
some doubt. The Poor-law, Commissioners were bound to

execute their functions in conformity with the law.
although the opinion of the Chief Baron and Mr. Martin was
that persons holding diplomas in Scotland and Ireland could
practice in this country in poor-law unions, yet it must be
borne in mind that no person but a general practitioner could
hold the office of medical officer to a.poor-law union • and as
the Apothecaries' Act excluded persons holding .diplomas in
Scotland and Ireland, the Poor-law Cornmissionersi acting in
conformity with that law, of course excluded them. Now it
so happened that this was one of the principal things which he
professed to remedy in the Bill for Medical Reform which he
had laid on the table, and he therefore was glad that the Hon.
Gentleman had alluded so prominently to this grievance. As
he had said before, he had not .the least objection to the papers
which the Hon. Gentleman had moved for.
Mr. WAKLEY said that which had struck hint most forci-
bly was, that no alteration bad been made in the general order
of the Commissioners of 1842.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that his impression was that
an alteration bad been made. The whole of the papers, how-
ever, should be produced.
The motion was then agreed to. •
POOR LAW.
Captain PECHELL then rose to move for the return (or-
dered 25th July) of all union workhouses under the Poor-law
Amendment Act, in which the pauper inmates thereof are, or
have been, employed in grinding or crushing bones by means
of mills, machinery, or otherwise ; together with the date of
such erection of mills or other machinery, and the names of the
chairman and vice-chairman of the board of guardians of every
inch union at the period; also. the cost of the said bones, in-_
eluding all expenses of carriage and other incidental expenses,
and the amount which.the same have produced in the,:rmanu-
factured state, and whether the same have been so.lirby tender,
or fixed price, or otherwise. He had moves. for this return
last session, and it had been faithfully promised by the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite. It bad not,' however, appeared.
He wished for this information in firder that they might have
the opportunity of instituting a comparison between the work-
houses under the Gilbert Union Act and those under the
Poor-lasv Amendment Ant. • Although the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman bad distinctly ' stated that he was averse
to the use of machines for grinding bones in workhouses, yet
he (Captain Pechell) could assure the Right Hon. Baronet
that as late as December last,. at one of the Bastiles in his neigh-
bourhood; it was the constant practice to grind bones, and an
additional mill for that puapose had been lately erected. It Was
impossible for the Poor-law Commissioners to permit such
practices to continue. He hoped that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would, on that occasion, as he did at the conclusion of the
last session, express his dissatisfaction, when he (Capt. Pechell)
had assured him that he knew a union workhouse--he would
not say in what Bart of the country—in which a mill for grind-
ing bona; still masted.
The citmt,ism boxing boa put,

Now,

~.

GR A HAIII Said Ise Could the Hon..atikatliant
Oftcer that he hid eirpressed tothe Poor-law Commissioners,
before the close of the last session, his earnest desire that if pos-
sible the returns Might be itirdishect before the House rose;
but it wits fohnd ihipossiblep complete their' id time ' He was
liapity to ififortn him that they wound, in three hr fbiir ch4s,
be presented to,the House. He had no hesitation in declaring,
what he bad :already stated; that to_ilijm it was matter of regret
that in poor-law union workhotuteii pitch descriptkrt of Mohr '
as the crushing of bone§ 40i11,1 be tisdd:-. 4.llear, hear; ) He
thought there Wen! 11114 circiiinsiabcit which rendered It an
oltenslie dear, was imposs.ble to
prgVent a very disgusting smell ; and he repeated that it was
.matter of r.:47,:tt to bilmieif that this species of labour
shoula be adopted. At the some tithe lie *as bound io
sly that this iv4s an d f loCal management.
tvithstanding all the jetilotiSy of the tioWer of the c pmmis-
refs—the kings; as thy were cello:l,in Sointriet Hottitez.z..
bitr authbritY was, it appeared very limited. It was dot pre,.
',bribed b, laic 141, Mite- &fishing &Mid be the oectipatiOn of
the inmates of.workisouses, much leis was it the 'Oh of the
Secretary of State or the Poor-law Commissioners, either of
whom would, if they had the power, put an end to this kind
of occupation, but, he repeated, this was an illustration-of
the working of local management apart from central authority,
total tbittagettent Cid discretion Uhchetked; and nnt*ed by
Idly saperior power. --(heir, heaf.) M the la* ntiir stoddi
boards of guardians had a right to employ the initiates of
workhouses in this particular manner. The evil continued
because there was no central control, and this was an illustra-

tion of the fact that the powers of the Poor•law Commissioners
iii ht its smut uses be bettellcially ettended.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON said, as one who wit cOttnected with
a union workhouse where bones were crushed by paupers, he
could not allow this subject to pass without saying a few
words. If bones were not to be crushed by paupers, it was
quite clear that they'must be crushed by independent labour-
ers I and he eonfessed it appeared to him a strange position to
lay down, that work which was too offensive for the one class
should be performed by the other.--4" Hear, hear," from Sir
C. Lemon.) He rejoiced that there was no legal power of pre-
venting the continuance of the practice. He felt convinced
that he had not been a party to ordering an unjust, unfair, or
an unwholesome employment, and he hoped that the practice
would continue in union workhouses as long as bones were
crushed by independent labourers out of doors.
Captain PECHELL said, that if the Noble Lord had been
in Parlsament when a petition was presented to that House
from an unfortunate pauper in a union workhouse, who was
brought to death's (tor^r from the scandalous treatment which
he had received in a house where men were sent to the bone-
mill as a punishment, be would not have assumed the position
which he had done that night.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the Right Hon. Baronet would issue an order for the sup-
pression of the practice. In the workhouse which he hadin his
eye, the guardians were, he believed, Impressed with the notion
that they were fully carrying out the views of the Poor-law
Commissioners, and that this workhouse was, in fact, a patent
poor-law Bastile for the whole country. It was necessary that
the guardians should be made acquainted that they had mis-
taken the opinion both of the Secretary of State and of the
Poor-law Commissioners.

_ ...
Mr. WA KLEY said he was really surprised to find such
Noble interest engaged in support of this system.— ( Laughter. )
This proved that it prevailed to to a fearful extent. He hail
before thought that by some accident the atrocious practice
which had fallen under, the notice of the Ga'lant Captain ex-
isted somewhere ; but he had now heard a Noble Lord rise in
that House and ask whether this labour was to fall upon the
pauper or upon the independent labourer ?—( Hear, hear. )
Whv the Commissioners had more to do than he had imagined.
—( Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck and ether Hon. Members. )
He was bound to admit they had been the protectors of the
members of this profession against the parsimony of the boards
of guardians ; and lie should be di-posed to give them more
authority.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary of State, after hearing what had
fallen from the Noble Lord, o ght to ask for more authority
within forty-eight hours.—(lronical cries of " Hear, hear,'
and laughter.) Were paupers to be •employed in crushing
bones in a state of decomposition ? Were they to be put to
this poisonous, filthy, odious, and abominable occupation? and
was that occupation to be defended by a Noble Lord ?—( Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord could not have spent any time in
the workhouse, that was quite evident. It was most distress-
ing to hear the Noble Lord make such remarks; and if be
sanctioned it in the union with which he was connected, he
feared that a practice, or practices equally odious, prevailed
generally throughout the country. He did maintain that it was
necessary to refer to the Pour-law Commissioners for p:otec-
tion against practices of this nature. He had already stated
that the Poor-law Commissioners had protected the members
of his profession against the parsimony and illiberality of boards
of guardians; and he would on a future occasion mention a
union where a medical officer was dismissed by the guardians
on the ground of his being too liberal in giving food to the
poor ; though not a single instance of the kind had been brought
home to him, he was dismissed upon that ground. He was in-
formed the Poor-law Commissioners had no power to protect
individuals against the guardians • but if any power had
existed it would certainly have been a very proper case for
its exercise. He did not hesitate, then, to ask the Right
Hon. Baronet to apply, in the Bill he was about to introduce
that night upon the law of settlement, for powers which
would give to the Commissioners sufficient authority to put
down the abominable practice of bone-grinding in union
workhouses.

Mr. ROEBUCK said he was -not going to occupy the
time of the House with any remarks on the immediate sub-
ject then before the House ; but he could not help con-
trasting the opinion just expressed by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, with the sentiments to which he had been accus-
tomed to give vent on former occasions, both in that House
and out of doors.--( Hear.) • It appeared that the Poor-law
Commissioners were not now such persons he had formerly
considered them to be—(Laughter)—as he called on the Hight
Hon. Baronet not to let forty-eight hours pass without increas-
ing their powers.—(Laughter.) Let the Honourable
Member and others who had joined with him in that
respect, look back to the language which they had used
in reference to the Poor-law Commissioners. Let the House
recollect how the Commissioners had been talked of as the
three tyrants of Somerset-house and how the term " pinch
paupers" had been applied to them.—( Hear, hear.) Every
term, in fact, which could express contempt and hatred had
been used by the Hon. Members ; and he would ask the Hon.
Gentleman, before he hastily expressed an opinion upon such a
subject, to place faith in those by whom the question had been
more accurately, calmly, and dispassionately considered. He
( Mr. Roebuck) spoke feelingly on this subject. He was one
of those against which the finger of scorn had been pointed, on
account of the sup: ort which he had given to the new Poor-
law Bill, and he now directed his finger iss scorn against the
Hon. Member opposite to whom he referred. There were per-
sons who cared not what opinion they expressed, so that it
suited the particular matter in hand. When it suited them
they could talk of the three tyrants in Somerset-house ; and,
again, for the same reason they would talk of increasing their
powers in forty-eight hours. That might be all very well, if
one, who indulged in mere talk for a particular purpose, to for-
ward a particular object—( Hear, hear )—but it did
not suit one whose mind was impressed with a
sense of the great duties a.,,d responsibilities which
rested upon his shoulders; one who was willing to meet not
only the feelings of hostility which might be exhibited on the
part of Hon. Members opposite, but even the-hostilities of
friends, when he thought that his duty required it. His only
object in rising on this occasion was to impress upon his Hon.
Friend near him (Mr. Wakley) and upon some other Hon.
Members opposite, the duty that lay upon them not hastily to
come to conclusions or to employ the arts of popular dema-
goguism. for the purpose of obtaining applause. He had seen
that night a signal instance—honestly given, he would allow
—by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, of an acknowledgment
of error, and he did hope that it would induce modesty in his
conduct, and modesty in the conduct of other Hon. Members
besides hints, lf.—( Hear, and laughter. )
Sir C. LEMON said that as far as tis own experience
went, he had no reason to believe that this occupation was
particularly offensive or disagreeable to the paupers themselves,
or in any way unwholesome. He was convinced that it wat
no more disagreealle than the breaking of stones, or any other
kind of labour. If this labour were abolished. he believed that
it would be difficult to find them sufficient employment.
Mr. WAKLEY said he did not know whether it was Par-
liamentary or not, that a Member, when he addre.sed that
House, should have improper motives imputed to him. It had
been stated by the Hon. and Learned Member fot Bath that
he had made a statement for the purpose of obtaining applause.
He utterly denied it. He was as incapable of doing so as the
Hon. Member himself, or any other Member. He had never
used any language with regard to the Poor-law Amendment
Act out of that House which be had not used in it ; and all
the expressions which he had ever used in relation to the
powers of the Commissioners he was prepared to repeat. All
he had stated was, that if this practice existed under the ope-
ration of the Poor-law Amendment Act, which his Hon. and
Learned Fi iend supported, and which he (Mr: Wakley) opposed
when it was brought into that House, he was prepared to give
the Commissioners powers to abate the nuisance. —( Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said he was certainly surprised at the for-
getfulness of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. He ought to
remember that the Poor-law Commissioners had first taught,
and even compelled, the guardians to adopt the system of which
he complain, d. This species of employment had been intro-
duced as a check to anv discontent on the part of the labourers.
Mr. SHARMAN (RAWFORD protested against the ap-
peal which had been made to the Right Hon. Baronet to in-
crease the powers of the Poor-law Commissioners. He did not
deny but there had been many abuses connected with bone-
crushing and other matters, but there were other means of re-
medying the grievance without increasing the powers of the
Commissioners, and to such a remedy as that he for one would
be extremely willing to resort.
POOR-LAWS—THE LAW OF SETTLEMENT.

Sir .1. GRAHAM said, that in rising to bring this important
subject before the House, he feared he couldinot put the House
in full possession of the Bill which he was about to introduce, if
he did not go through the reasons which induced him to make
the alterations which the Bill contained. The House would
recollect that he introduced a Bill on this subject last session,
and it was a melancholy fact, that no less than one-tenth of the
whole population of England and Wales required relief out of
the poor-rate in the course of last year • that was to say. that no
less than 1,500,000 persons required relief in the course of the
year from this rate.—( Hear, hear.) He might state in various
ways the amount which-. had been expended in the
relief of the poor. He might state that since the
termination of the war in ISIS--rnotwithstanding all
that had b en said about the neglect of the poor, of the neg-
lect of their duties by the rich towards the poor, notwith-
standing all the relief that had been dispersed by private
charity and their numerous charitable institutions, no less a
sum had been paid from the poor-rate in this country since
the termination of the war, than 200.000,000/., amounting to
one-fourth of the capital of the National Debt. There was,
therefore, no doubt of the existence of great poverty and desti-
tution in the country, but in addition to this destitution and
this poverty, the question arose, should the poor now receive
relief in the place where they resided for years, where they had
contracted habits and feelings of friendship, or whether those
associations should be broken? The House would pardon him
for thus introducing the subject, which was so intimately con-
nected with the feelings of so large a portion of the people of
this country. It was a subject of the greatest importance, and
one that required the greatest consideration, and it had diffi-
culties attending it, which rendered it a subject difficult to be
dealt with. Yet he was satisfied, conscientiously satisfied, that
important changes and modifications of the existing law of
settlement, in reference both to the interests and feelings of
the poor, was imperatively required.—(llear, hear.) Ac-
tuated by that strong impression, he ventured to bring under the
notice of the House the Bill of last session, and those gentlemen
who were then present and attended to what he s'id, could re-
collect- that on the occasion of 'his laying•the Bill of last session
on the table of the House, he stated that he hoped the Bill
would undergo free and full discussion during the recess, and
that he might receive the suggestions and the commentaries of
those who considered the measure. He had, accordingly, re-
ceived from various quarters suggestions and commentaries,
and it was now his duty to lay betore the House the result of
the best consideration and intelligence which he could apply
to them. In the Bill which he introduced last session there
himw were e
tofoguor
through
hentht
opsoeindtiffs.erelott wpoouinldtsnagotaib:
ne
The two points to
them no serious objection had been urged.
wtehnidcehdobsjheocu'lidon,
confers had bite:en:9
intended should be not only
set-
tlement by birth, which 1t wae
th epeg tno the
who
rother referred to a five
prospective but retrospective; the
• • • once in one locality, which it was in-
years' industrial rendossatryofoorf
attired relief. • To that part of the Bill which regulated the
• removal of scotch and Irish paupers, nb serious objections had
yaedaebili related—the
ton
be„ ' ebjectieus taken to the two irst

heads—naively, the birth, settlement, and the irremove-
ability couferred by a five years' industrial residence were
almost identical. First, it was stated, that considering so
large a number of persons as °tit...tenth of the whole pepulation
required relief, those two regulations would girt rise to a dislo-
eation of the whole system of the law which heretofore rept-
lateel the right of settiement. It was stated that it would shake
the indisputable rights of parties to Ise relieved ender the law
85 it stood at present in their parishes, and would also prodeee
rt,Af deal ~pf litigation_ as the necessary result. It was Ob-
jected that in eases where the parish was in the hands of one, or
of a few individuals, it Would induce those persons to pull down
cottages, and to have recourse to a system which was better
known than in England by the terrible words the clearing of es-
tates, and to drive the population from their little hamlets and
gardens. As he could hot put those objections in a stronger
light than they had beat urged in a memorial which he had re-
teived from the union of Bedford, the Otiose would permit him
to read front their memorial. They stared with regard to the
settlement by birth, that they were of opinion the owners of the
prifitipal parts of parishes erstild clear them of the population by
pert:basing Or blinding cottages adjoining towns, and compel-
ling them to reside theta. The same objection the Memorialists
stated applied to irremoveability by five years' industrial tesi•
dente. He was bound to state that the memorialists had
clearly stated their objections, and that they were well worthy
of serious consideration. It was his wish to meet those
objections, and having given the subject all the reflection in
his power, he was not prepared any longer to propose that a
retroactive effect should be given to the laws of settlement.
What he now io_roposed to enact was to take effect at the passing H
of the Act. e confessed that he saw great disadvantages in
limi-ing the Act to a prospective operation only, but the late
regulation, which required the place of birth to be mentioned,
would hereafter afford increased facilities with regard to the
settlement by_ birth. When on the former occasion he ad-
dressed the House on the subject, he stated that it was clear
that in the aggregate the interests of the towns and of the
country were identical, but in details such as they were now
dealing with there was certainly a clashing between their in-
terests. It was quite clear that the birth settlement was in
favour of the towns, at the expense of the rural districts, and for
this eery obvious reason, that the opportunities for labour
which the towns afforded, attracted the redundant population
of the country, but when destitution come upon them they
were thrown back upon the country, tut on the other hand,
the irremoveability which a five years' industrial residence
would confer, would be in favour of the country at the expense
of the towns; for the poor of the rural districts being
attracted to the towns by the greater demand for labour there,
would have acquired the right of relief by five years' residence.
If, therefore, he was compelled to forego the immediate enact-
ment of birth settlement, and not to bestow on r ural districts
anything which had been contemplated, he was bound also not
to impose upon the towns the extra burthens he had alluded to.
On the whole he was disposed to forego those two portions of
the measure he had introduced last session, namely, birth set-
tlement, and five years' industrial residence. He hoped the
House would pardon him. if he called its attention to the great
advantages which the six other limitations he intended to in-
troduce would confer. Every woman during her marriage,
who should be liable to be removed upon her husband's death
to his parish, would not be subject to that removal. Every
illegitimate child, under the age of 16, who would be liable to
be removed to the parish where the father had a set-
tlement, would not be liable to such removal.
Every child under 16, being a bastard, who would be
liable to be removed to the parish where its mother had a set-
tlement, would not be liable to such removal; aid no widow
. .

who at the time of her— husband's death resided with

him, should be liable to be removed from the parish where she
was residing, until the expiration of one. year after her hus-
band's death, So that the.widow who, at the time of her hus-
band's death, s' as residing with him in the parish in which he
was settled, would not be liable to be removed therefrom ; and
no widow or her children, though born in Ireland or Scotland,
could after her husband's death be removed from the parish
where the husband resided till after the expiration of a certain
period. So that, in tact, the greatest advantage was given by
the measure to the Scotch and Irish paupers. He now came—
having stated the alterations in the measure of last session that
were proposed—he now came to what appeared to him
a most important condition—so important, that if the House
permitted him to introduce it, he should ct nsider it necessary
to ask the House to permit of some little delay between the in-
troduction of that Bill and the second reading. He had stated
on a former occasion that no working man in this country
reached the age of forty without experiencing the injustice of
the law of settlement. What was the cause of this, and what
was the result? Why, labour did not circulate freely in Eng-
land. Now, he thought it would be of great advantage to
the poor man, and no disadvantage to the rich one, if they
were to proceed to reduce the restraints on the circulation of
labour. He thought there could be no objection to the adop-
tion at once of the union settlement. If he could induce the
House to substitute union for parochial settlements, that would
reduce the injustice of the law of settlement as it at present ex-
isted. 'there was nothing new in parochial settlerrients, but there
was in union settlements. By the late Act which was introduced,
it was provided that the union should be considered part of the
same parish. If the proposition he was about to make was of
any value, it must be general. The House would perhaps
allow him to read the mode in which he proposed to effect it.
But, perhaps, before he did so, it would be better that he
should sustain his proposition by various authorities, both in
town and country, all of whom agreed with the proposition he
was about to make. He would not advert to all the authorities
he had upon the subject, but the House would perhaps pardon
him if he mentioned four. In Norfolk the guardians of the
Briden union had come to a resolution that all parochial settle-
ments were bad in principle, and taxed the poor man most un-
justly ; and that, in order to avoid the evil, parochial settle-
ments should be abolished, and all districts should be formed
of the whole union. The overseers and leading officers of the
Manchester union stated, that whatever course the Le-
gislature might take in reference to this important mat-
ter, they would strenuously urge upon them the mak-
ing of all the towns and unions as one. He would
now read an extract from a report of Mr. Hall, the
Assistant Poor-law Commissioner, charged with the superin-
tendence of the Metropolitan distr.et. He says—" Much diffi-
culty that is expected to follow the administration of the new
Bill will be done away with, if settlements were made not pa-
rochial, but to relate to the union." He should trouble the
House only with one more extract, and that was from the very
able report drawn up by persons most conversant with this
particular subject, whose experience and opinions were entitled
to the utmost respect. That extract was a list of the unions
the clerks of which had assembled to discu=s this sub•
ject. These unions were Altringham, Bolton, Bake-
well, Burley, Charlton-on-Medway, Congleton, Huddersfield,
Kendal, Manchester, Macclesfield, Preston, Stockport, Stoke-
upon-Trent, West Derby (which included Liverpool), Bur-
store, and some others; the opinions of the cfficers of all these
unions were in favour of his proposal. Thus he bad argu-
ment in support of his proposition ; he had practical autho-
ritv in fav,itir of it, and unless he deceived himself, he thought
the House could not, by any single measure, more consult the
interests, and as he believed the feelings and happiness of the
poor, than by receiving this proposition. He was con •
fident that no one measure would so much restrict the
probability of frequent removal, and allow labour
to circulate so freely as the measure he propounded. It only
remained for him to state shortly the exact mole in which he
proposed that the measure should be carried out. He proposed
that, wherever a parish or township was included in a union,
all existing and future settlements should be deemed to be, not
settlements of that parish or township, but of the union in
which they were included. In that union all removals should
in future be conducted by the board of guardians, and net
by the parish officers. That was a point on which he mainly
relied as certain to produce the humane effects he antici-
pated. Instead of the narrow, bad, and selfish
interests of parish officers, the local feelings, and, he
was bound to say, the narrow prejudices of these officers, the
question of removal would ne submitted to the board of guar-
dians. All facts would be freely discussed by several persons,
and those possessing the most confidence to decide on them,
and without that pinching and harsh desire to cut down to the
utmost the charge upon each small parish. All appeals in the
same manner would he conducted by the board of guardiars on
behalf of the union. He was sorry he had been obliged to
trespass at such length on the attention of the House, and he
had now only to state that all the checks and arrange-
ments incidental to the trial of orders of re-
moval, provided by the Act of last session, should
be left unchanged, though all the power of the parish
officers in respect of removals would be transferred to the
guardians, just as all discretion would be taken from the parish
authorities and transferred to the Board. It might be said that
in the midst of the vicissitudes of trade, the alterations of ser-
vice, gross injustice might be done to some districts in conse-
quence of those changes, unless some precautions were taken.
But lie proposed that the expenses should be shared by all the
parishes of a union, in proportion to the average of their popu-
lation for the last seven years, ending at Lady-day, 1844. As
regarded the equity of this arrangement up to the present
time, he theught it amounted to demonstration that it could
not be impugned. The only argument he anticipated
was a retrospective one, founded on the fluctuations of trade.
But his proposition as it now stood would not, in point of fact,
increase in the least the hardships arising from the operations
of trade. It was quite true that the tide of manufacturing
enterprise had left some districts and gone to others. That
it had left the NViltthire district and gone to the North, leaving
the former much embarrassed and depressed. But they could
not prospectively take precautions against these fluctuations of
trade ; but up to this moment he maintained that in such an
arrangement as he proposed, there was nothing to increase the
hardships inciden al to these fluctuations. He should weary the
House if lie dwelt at greater length on this question, the more
particular details of which would be discussed on future occa-
sions. But he still thought the Bill was one which he was
justified in submitting to the consideration of the House. He
certainly should not presume, it the House permitted him to in-
troduce the measure, to press the second reading till the
House had had ample time to consider the propo-
sition, and he had himself an opportunity of collecting
opinions upon it. But at the same time he felt a confidence
that the merits of the measure would recommend it to all those
whose humanity led them to promote the well-being of the poor
—to all those whose justice impelled them equally and fairly to
distribute that charge which was by right levied from the rich
for the support of thc poor—and to the humane and just of the
community at large—he commended the measure, believing that
if well and fully considered it would be found not unworthy of
the attention of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He moved for
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law of settlement.
Colonel WOOD took the earliest oppor unity of
expressing his, regret at the purport of the latter
part of the Right Honourable Baronet's statement.
He would give the Right Hon. Baronet all credit for the atten-
tion he had given to this subject, and many points of his propo-
sition were worthy of the consideration of the House. No
doubt the Right Hon. Baronet thought the measure was cal-
culated to benefit the poor, but if adopted, instead of being any
benefit to the poor man, it would be the greatest injury ever
inflicted upon him. The consequence would be, that all
anxiety to employ the poor in their own parishes would cease.
Labourers would be discharged, and without scruple thrown
for support upon the union. Whenever a time of difficulty
arose, vast numbers would be thrown on the union rate
because it was not a local one. It had been stated that there
had been no parochial rate up to the time of Charles 11,, but
the fact was, that up to the time of Elizabeth, thrth)Cea3r9sthrof
sidence entitled a man to parochial relief,
Elizabeth persons could be sent hack to thea;:'dribstres it, which
they had resided tor one year. He regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet had felt it his duty to give. up t lat
part of h.
1-till which gave a claim for relief on the parish
where a man had resided for five years. He (Colonel
Wood) gave notice that he should introduce a clause by which
every poor man resident in a
parish for one year should be en-
titled to relief as casual poor.
The proposal of his Right Hon.
Friend that birth alone should give a title to settlement would
not at all remove the complaints now made by the poor.
The poor man now complained that he might bring up a
large family in one parish, by many years labour, and then be
thrown upon a parish in which he was a total stranger. But
the case now, if the principle of birth
that would be precisely
alone was adopted. A poor man might be removed to a
strange place under this Act as well as by the former system.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that there were reservations in the
power of making such removals.
Colonel WOOD said he was aware that there were restric-
tions on such removals, but he thought that if residence gave a
man a title to relief it would prevent much difficulty and
hardship. There was another circumstance which fully entitled
the labourer to a settlement. Formerly, every man that paid
poor-rates obtained a settlement in the parish in which he was
rated, and he certainly thought that if they obliged the poor
man to pay poor-rates, that should at least entitle him to a set-
tlement in the parish to which he paid them. To make the
poor belong to a union and not tot parish, would
.entirely

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