The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

•.
LONDON, TUESDAV EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1844.

" hundred days " of Queen Mary had so operated on
the English mind at this moment, aslo incapacitate them
from doing justice to the Roman Catholic population of
Ireland! When he spoke of doing justice to the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, it appeared to him that in the
speeches of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite there was a
most extraordinary deficiency--one, indeed, nearly as
great as that committed by Hon. Members on his side of
the House.—(Hear, and laughter.) On this side of the
House we often talk about Ireland as if there were no
Roman Catholics at all in it. On the opposite side Hon.
Gentlemen talked of Ireland as if there were no Protes-
tants in it. Who could have believed, while listening to
the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sun-
derland, or that of the Honourable and Learned
Member for Liskeard, that there were a million of Pro-
testants in Ireland.—(Cries of " No, no," from the Op-
position.) Well, then, two millions.—(No, no, and
laughter.) Say, then, a million and a half.—(Laughter.)
At least, then, an amount of Protestant population in
that country, which, considering their property and in-
fluence, they could not entirely disregard, without doing
injustice to that country. Remembering what the Pro-
testants of Ireland were, he would ask at whose door
lay the evil ? If they were proud and insolent, if they
did tyrannise over their Catholic fellow-subjects, who had
encouraged them in doing so ? What Legislature was it
that had fostered in them this feeling, that had made
them absolutely the spoilt children of England, and
had led them to regard themselves as the lineal
descendants of the Cromwellian conquerors of Ireland?
He did not say this was the case, but, looking histori-
cally at the subject, he should say such was the natural
consequences of the manner in which the Protestant in-
terest in Ireland had been fostered and cockered by
England ; he said, therefore, to turn round and deny
these men their proper influence, and to speak of them
as non-existent, as in no degree to be regarded, as if
they held no part of the public opinion of Ireland, ap-
peared to him as a gross and unmitigated fallacy. The
Protestant Church was regarded, beloved, and revered,
in Ireland, in a manner which, he was sorry to say, he
found very few of its followers in England exhibit. He
wished he could see the members of the English Church
as much attached to it as the Protestants of
Ireland were. He therefore could not pretend that
he would come at once to any of those stringent,
and rapid measures by which the Church Establish-
ment would be at once destroyed. He did not think,
supposing the dream of the Noble Lord to be realised,
and he seemed indulging in some such reveries—(Great
laughter, occasioned by Lord. Howick being, or appear-
ng to be, at the moment asleep)—that religious ani-
mosity would be at all weakened. Leaving the feelings
of the people such as they were—he believed the volun-
tary system would have the effect of imparting to the
Church of Ireland all the rancour and bitterness which
they then found disfiguring the Roman Catholic Church.
And the consequence would be nothing less than one of
the most bloody and destructive conflicts of religious
opinion that had ever been seen on the face of the earth.
On these and other considerations he would not support
any measure which would tend to destroy the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland. If that link were severed
what was to prevent the Irish Protestants from saying
we are Irishmen also, we wish to have a national legis-
lature; what was to prevent them from becoming re-
pealers ?—(Hear.hear.) He saw nothing to prevent this
consequence, but he would say with the late Baron
Wolfe, he would wish to give the Catholics in Ireland
an equality of rights, not an equality of degradation. He
would do everything to secure their comfort and dignity; he
was not to be terrified by seeing two or three respectable
theologians with purple stockings sitting in the House
of Lords.—(Cheers and laughter.) He thought also
they ought to establish friendly relations with the Court
of Rome.. Were the clergy in connection with Rome
there would be just as much chance of their being good
subjects of the Crown as any members of that body.
Relations with the Court of Rome ought now, at least,
to be renewed. The Hon. Member for Newark had
mentioned this subject in the House last session. He
did not think there would be any objection to it on the
part of the House or on the part of the country.—(An
ironical " Hear, hear," from Mr. Plumptre, and laugh-
ter.) Such an attempt, if made, would certainly
require some caution.—(Laughter.) The Court of
Rome had been so long accustomed to be the prey
of diplomatists. that they would probably receive
our advances with suspicion. But if they explained that
they felt that the Court of Rome could revive in Ireland
the old and excellent principle of order and conservatism
for which it was distinguished, and which it had main-
tained in every other country in the world except Ire-
land, -such an attempt might be made most successfully.
But ithe education of the Roman Catholics ought also to
be regarded and provided for by an additional grant to
the College of Maynooth, or the endowment of an
Irish College at Rome,which, of the two he should prefer.
He thought that encouragement ought to be given to her
Majesty's present Government, and to every other Go-
vernment--(Laughter)—in cases which he considered
superior and more portentous than the existence of any
Government.—(Laughter.) It was considered that the
effect of the Reform Bill had been to injure the stability
of Governments in this country.—(Laughter.) It was
impossible now that any Government, however well ma-
naged, could retain power for as long as Sir Robert Wal-
pole was permitted to retain it.—(Laughter.) It was,
however, the duty of every Government in this country
to lay matters in such a train, and to prepare them in
such a way, that whatever the result might be to them-
selves, whether they were able to carry them them-
selves or not, would soften the difficulties to those
who came after them. The Noble Lord the Member for
London pledged himself in this debate as to what he
would do if he became the Minister of the Crown. The
Irish Catholics might reckon when the Noble Lord
could get a majority by any means, that he would give
them religious equality.(Hear, hear.) They might
know that was the very least theywould gets (Laughter.)
It was the duty of every Member of Parliament to take care
that if such an unhappy event should take place—(Laugh-
ter)—to do all in his power to modify and soften the evil
about to follow.—(Laughter.) The greatest difficulty in
this world occurred, not from the events themselves, but
from the world being impassioned for them.—(Laugh-
ter.) All he could say was, that he believed her Ma-
jesty's Government was right„ but it was necessary that
they should do everything in their power to bring about
what was just as tranquilly, and with, as he must say,
as little revolution as possible.—(Great laughter.) That
they would do so, he had not the least doubt; but in their
own way.—(Laughter, and cheers.) They (the Go-
vernment) saw what was right as clearly as you do—
they saw the evil as truly as you do—and saw what the
remedy was as truly
as ou do, but the remedy was not
so palpable as the evil.—(Opposition cheers.) They
y
would attempt the remedy, but their course would not
be such as was proposed by the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Sunderland—they would bring it about Ly
means which, in-the opinion of all prudent men, would
attain its-object.; and, at the same time, would not in-
sult public opinion in this country. lie warned, the
Noble Lord, and others behind him, from the destruc-
tion of the Roman Catholic Church—(Great laughter)
—and to take care what they did in arousing a " No
Popery " feeling in this country.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
There was a feeling -in this country
which the Noble
Lord, and those around, should take care not to arouse by
violent and extreme declarations. He saw no reason
why they might not have the scenes of 1780 acted over
again ; and he was sure there would be a many a Lord
George Gordon to help them On.—(oh.) They should
set themselves seriously to remedy the evils of Ireland.
Let them forget all their party differences when dis-
cussing the affairs of Ireland.—(llear, hear.) Let them
not taunt Government with not going
so far as Hon.
Gentlemen opposite wished, as long as they
went in the
same direction.—(A laugh.) They ought to make
every allowance for the Government.—(A laugh.) And
Hon. Gentlemen on the other side should remem-
ber that when they were in power they did not
go
farther. He gave his cordial vote in favour of the Go-
vernment, not because they did all he wished for Ire-
land, but they did as much as the other Government,
b
who called themselves liberal, had done before
Let them do religious justice to the people of Ireland
nd and
political justice would follow in the course of
time.—(Hear, hear.) There ought to be
limitations in politics as well as in matters
eaf s
of Ireland property.
They could not go on discussing the wrong statute of
for ever.—(Hear, hear.) They looked
hat thredensevoilsso,sf
Ireland just if they were looking throng Lo
telescope—(Laughter)-Tin order to liringthemas near
as possible ; -but they ought to endeavour to obliterate
them as much as possible; they ought, instead of exaspe-
ratingnr and wounding the feelings ot the people of Ireland
to try to soothe them in every way.—(Hear, hear.) Let
them proceed in such a vein and they would do every
thing for Ireland. They should legislate for Ireland
not according to what they thought best, but according
to law and present circumstances, and upon such sound
and rational grounds as would cure the evils of that un-
happy country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. MACAULAY—Sir, I cannot refrain from con-
gratulating you that I did not catch your eye in the
present instance, because, I should be sorry to prevent
an Irish representative from addressing the House on an
occasion so interesting to his country, but peculiarly
sorry should I be to stand in the way of that Hon.
Gentleman who pleaded the cause of Ireland with so
much force. I now wish to submit to the House the rea-
sons which influence me in the vote I am about to give.
And, in doing so, I am sorry to say I do not feel myself
justified in following the course traced out by my on.
Friend opposite, with all that authority which he de-
rives from venerable antiquity, not thinking it right to
suffer her Majesty's Governmeenttngtothgekomi
iroswentiahaknie s proposingwte
h
measures
which s sup-
port a-
in their own way se
they are likely to make. The grounds oI think
on
port the motion are these : that
most unsatisfactory and unsettled state, and that if there
be disorders in that country, of which no statesman can
see the source, yet there are disorders in the present
condition of Ireland of which her Majesty's present advisers
mast be really considered the cause, and I do not think that
in any part of their conduct, either legislative or administra-
tive, they show a just appreciation of the nature of the causes
of the disorders of that country, or of the proper mode in
I
which they should be redressed. s_ be differenteenothingfr
from thatomwhichto
will infer or expect that their policy
which they
.have heretofore pursued. I
_look forward with
deep uneasiness to the state o
Ireland-4 Hear, hear,
and cheers)—and under those circumstances, I con-
ceive it the right and duty of, every man to speak out,
and I conceive my Noble Friends motion to go into a Commit-
tee of the whole House is both a very convenient, as it is, be-
yond all doubt, a perfectly Parliamentary, course to pursue.
With regard to the proposition before us, it will not be neces-
sary to waste the time of the House in stating that the present
condition of Ireland is one to pite alarm and apprehension.
In that I think both sides of the House are agreed. That coun-
try constitutes a fourth part of the United Kingdom. In pro-
portion, it is more than a fourth._ I the natural fertility of
its soil it is superior to any area of equal extent in Europe. It
possesses ports which hold out
more allurements for commerce
than any other country, and it is an inexhaustible nursery
.for
brave soldiers.—(Cheers.) It is a country of far more im-
portance to the prosperity and greatness of the em-
pire than all our vast dependencies put together,
if multiplied five times over—of far more impor-
tance to us than our Canadian possessions, together
with the West Indies, the Cape, and Australasia added to the

whole empire of the Mogul.—(Cheers.) We know it is now
governed, not by love but by fear—(Cheers)—that it is go-
verned as you govern-Sinde—(Cheers)—not by the confidence
of the people in the law, and by attachment to the Constitu-
tion, but by means of armed men, and entrenched encamp-
ments.—( Cheers. ) This is a fact which, if it stood alone,
would fully justify the House of Commons in going into an
inquiry upon the causes which produced such a state of
things in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But there are other evils
in Ireland, a part of which cannot be attributed to the present
Government, and a part of which can be justly laid to their
charge. Ido not wish to weary the House by tracing the
origin of those • evils; and yet, I think I can
hardly do justice to the question without casting a
passing glance on them. No doubt when we look at the pri-
mary causes of these evils, we must look not only beyond the
existence of the present Administration—not only beyond the
time of any living statesman, but to times before the names of
" Whig" or " Tory" were pronounced—to times anterior to
the introduction of the Puritans, to which the Hon. Member
for Shrewsbnry, in his very ingenious speech, attributed these
evils—to times anterior even to the Reformation. I think we
may trace the first source of those evils to the manner in
which Ireland became annexed to the Crown of England.
It was a couquest, and a conquest of a peculiar kind. It
was not a mere annexation of Ireland to the British Crown,
which would be a benefit to her. It was not a conquest
like that of France over Normandy, or like that by
which Silesia was added to Prussia. It was a con-
quest of a different kind. It was a conquest known
in ancient times, and well known among rude nations—
it
was a conquest of race over race—it was the dominion
of one nation over another, such as was established by
the Mahrattas over the kingdom of Gwalior—such a do-
minion as Spain, established. ' over South America.
That I take to be the first great fountain of all these disorders.
I believe that the very worst of all tyranny is that of race over
race.—( Hear, hear.) I believe that the enmity which has
existed between nations separated by sea and mountain, even
when those nations have been at war with each other, has
never approached, in its most intense bitterness, the enmity of
nations which have been geographically and locally inter-
mingled, and yet, at the same time, have never been morally
amalgamated. It is the feeling of the Spaniards and the
Moors; it is the feeling which, down to our oven time, exists
among a large part of mankind in regard to the Jews. Never-
theless civilisation can remove this evil ; for in our own coun-
try—a country which formerly suffered under the same species
of misery—we have seen Celt and Saxon, Dane and Norman,
all fused down, all melted together, and forming one great
united people.—( Hear, hear.) This, we might have hoped,
would have taken place in Ireland. I believe it would have
taken place but for the establishment of the Reformation.—
( Hear, hear.) Then came in anew division to strengthen the
old one. The aborigines of Ireland remained true to
the ancient faith alone among all the nations of
the north of Europe.—(Hear.) Then you had im-
mediately a new line of distinction ; you had
theological animosity called in to reinforce and reanimate the
undying animosity of race : and in this manner it is that the
two have come down to our own time. It did unfortunately so
happen that the spirit of liberty in England was allied with that
spirit in theology, which was most widely opposed to the
Roman Catholic Church—it did so happen that the passion for
arbitrary Government, was, daring the seventeenth century,
closely allied with a tenderness for the old religion. Such men
as Pym and Hampden, and Vane, and even Milton, afford ex-
amples of the operation of this kind of alliance. Even Milton,
with all his eloquence, while proclaiming the great doctrines of
religious liberty, always made an exception—the religion of the
Roman Catholic. On the other hand, those princes who re-
spected no rights of °Protestants in the case of any dissenters,
always respected the rights of the Roman Catholic. James the
First, even after the gunpowder plot, had no repugnance to
the Roman Catholics. Charles the Second was a concealed
Catholic. James the Second an avowed Catholic. In this
manner it commonly happened that their evil was our good,
that throughout the whole of that long contest our slavery and
their freedom was the same thing. At this very day every-
thing which in the mind of the English Whig is as-
sociated with what he considers the glory of his coun-
try, is, in the mind of a Roman Catholic, asso-
ciated with the degradation of himself and his religion.
Take the name of William the Third—take the name of the
battle of the Boyne, and others which I need not mention. I
never recollect having been so forcibly struck with the differ-
ence as I was on a day which I ought to well remember—the
day when I had the honour of being declared Member for the
town of Leeds. I was in the chair, which was adorned with
orange ribbons ; it was surrounded by men of the strongest
opinions, nothing but orange ribbons were to be seen. I could not
help thinking how anomalous all this would have seemed to an
Irish Protestant. Nor was this all ; there was a large orange
flag carried before me, sad Sir George Saville, one of the very
first of those who led the way in claiming equal rights for the
Catholics, sat in the very chair in which Lord Milton sat
after he gained his great victory in Yorkshire. What a
triumph would this display have been considered by an Irish
Protestant over the Catholics. At the same time it was a
circumstance that suggested reflections on the whole of
the history of the two nations.-o( Hear, hear. ), During
that century twice the Irish population rose against
the Protestants, twice they were put• down and
visited with severe punishment. They were put down
first by Cromwell, and then by William the Third. Each of
these rulers, after his victory, proceeded to establish a system
of his own. That of Cromwell was fierce and strong, and
able and cruel. It was all contained in one word—a word
which Lord Clarendon tells us was constantly uttered by the
Englishmen in Ireland—extirpation ! What his policy would
have been if he had lived; we cannot tell ; but his object, un-
doubtedly, was to make Ireland completely a part of England.
William the Third's policy was seemingly less cruel ; whether
in reality it was less cruel, I have my doubts. The Irish
Catholics were to live they were to multiply, they were to
dwell on the earth—they were to till the earth—but the Catho-
lic was to be what the Helot was in Sparta—what the Greek
was under the rule of the Ottoman—what the man of colour is
at this moment in Pennsylvania. He was to be excluded from
every honour and every privilege. At every step in his path
through life, he was to find himself cramped by some galling
restriction. If he were desirous of military glory, he might
go into the armies of Austria or France. If he felt any desire
to take part in politics, he might plunge into the diplomacy of
Italy or Spain ; but if he remained at home he was to be a
mere Gibeonite—a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water.
Bad laws badly administered increased the bad feelings from
which they had sprung—and to that period I believe is the
origin to be referred of all those bad feelings arising out of the
relations of landlord and tenant in Ireland, which have lasted
down to our own times, and which have led to such fatal con-
sequences throughout the whole subsequent series of Irish
history. As to the Courts of Law—as to the juries—they
have existed only for the benefit of the dominant class. As to
the priests, those men who have been revered
as the dispensers of the Christian sacraments, they
have been constantly treated in a manner in which
no man would treat the veriest mountebank. A t last there
came a great change over the face of Europe. The French revo-
lution had awakened the spirit of liberty throughout the world.
Jacobitism was certainly not the national ally of Catholicism, but
oppression and misery produce sharp coalitions, and such a
coalition was now formed. That third Protestant ascendancy
was put down by the sword, and then it became the duty of
the eminent man who stood at the head of affairs to consider
how he was to' deal with Ireland. I must say, though lam
no idolater of the memory of Pitt—that when I compare the
plan which he formed with the policy, either of Oliver Crom-
well or William the Third, lam forced to admit that he de-
serves, over these celebrated men, the praise of great wisdom
and of great humanity. The union of Ireland to England was
part of his plan—an excellent part of his plan—an essential part
of his plan, but still only a part of it. It is never to be for-
gotten that his scheme was one much wider in extent than any
which we have yet seen carried into effect. What he wished
was to unite the hearts and the affections of the two nations.
Catholic disabilities were to be removed. The Catholic clergy
were to be placed in an honourable and independent position.
Catholic education was to be conducted on a liberal scale.
His views on those opinions agreed with those, I believe, if I
am not misinformed—with those of a man of an under-
standing even more enlarged and capacious than his own—l
mean, Mr. Burke.—(Hear, hear.) If that system had been
fully and fairly carried into effect, it is my belief that the union
with Ireland would have been as secure and as far beyond the
reach of danger as the union with Scotland.—( Cheers.) The
name of the union would have been associated in the minds of
the ereat body of the people of Ireland, with the removal of
cruel and galling disabilities, and with respect paid to their re-
ligion.—( Cheers.) All that was just, all that was national in
their feelings, would have been bound up with the English
connexion.—(Cheers.) The Parliament on College-green
would have been remembered, as it deserved to be remembered,
only as the vilest—( Hear, hear)—the most corrupt-4 Hear,
hear)—the most tyrannical—( Hear, hear)—legislative assem-
bly that ever sat, I believe, on the face of the earth.—( Loud
cheers.) In saying this, lam sure lam not giving any offence
to any Irishman.—( Hear.) I sayy_ no more than Wolfe Tone
has said. (The Right Hon. Gentleman here quoted a passage
from Wolfe Tone, in which it was asserted that there was
nothing in the history of legislation -at all bordering on the in-
famy of College-green, and that he did not believe it had ever
entered into the heart of man to conceive anything more
infamous than the -system of Irish legislation.) Not
only would the union, if .this had passed, have been
associated in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland
with great benefits received—(Cheers)—but those benefits
must have inspired unmingled gratitude—(Cheers)—for they
would have been benefits not conceded to force, but given
freely—(Cheers)—given in the moment of pow er.—( Cheers. )
lam sorry that Mr. Pitt's measures were not carried into
effect, but the Irish Catholics found that they had given away
their independence, and that they had obtained no compensa-
tion in respect of their civil or their religious liberties.—
(Cheers.) The union must now be associated in their minds
with disappointed hopes and violated pledges.—( Cheers. )
Nevertheless, it is not yet too late.—(Loud cheers.) It was
not too late in 1813.—(Cheers.) It was not too late in 1821.
—(Cheers.) It was not toe late in 1825.—(Cheers.) If some
of those men who were tben, as now, high in the service of
the Crown, would have made up their minds to say that which
they were forced to say four years later, I believe, that all the
benefits of the policy of Mr. Pitt would have been secured.—
( Loud cheers.) The supporters of agitation had not been or-
ganised. The Government was under no coercion. That
which might have been given in 1825 might have been given with
honour, and might, and probably would, have secured grati-
tude. At length, in 1829, concession was made—lawfully
made—and made without conditions, which Mr. Pitt would un-
doubtedly
have imposed. But it was made reluctantly, and
with evident reluctance. It was made confessedly for the pur-
pose of avoiding a civil war. Was this a concession to be re-
ceived with gratitude, or to be received with contempt? Was
it not a necessary effect that it should inspire in the minds of
the Irish people an opinion deeply to be lamented, but one,
with the evils effects of which we are at this day con-
tending? Could they forget that they had come before
the English Parliament, during twenty-seven years,
as suppliants for justice, pleading the rights of conscience,
pointing to solemn pledges, to the promise of Mr. Pitt : and it
is believed, to the promise given by his Majesty, George IV.,
when Prince of Wales ? The most profound thinkers, the most
eloquent orators, had toiled in their service in vain. Mr. Pitt,
who bad endeavoured to fulfil his intentions towards them, had
been driven from power. Mr. Grenville and Lord Grey, who
attempted to do but a small part of what Mr. Pitt had pro-
mised, were driven from power. Mr. Canning took their
part, and Mr. Canning was hunted to death. —( Loud cheers
laidfo min theorator was
them-
selves--to Catholics bean
look fo
from Opposition.)ve,then
selves—to organise agitation—to display themselves in a strong
the WhenCa thtolli
and formidable array of force, just keeping within the limits of
the law. The consequence was, that within two years after
that great man had been carried to Westminster Abbey,
broken-hearted, the feeling pervaded the Roman Catholic body
in Ireland, that from England, or at all events from that great
party which now governs England, nothing was to be got by
reason, and everything by force.—( Hear, hear.) However,
the concession had been made—it deserved no gratitude, and
it obtained none. The organization of agitation was complete.
The leaders of the people had tasted the pleasures of power
and of distinction. The people themselves had grievances
enough to furnish a very good pretext for the continuance of
agitation. There was a general sense that there was nothing
which might not be got by playing over again the game of
1829.—( Hear, hear.) These, Sir, I call the remote causes
of the difficulties with which we have now to deal ; these are
the causes in which originated the great mass of that discon-
tented and morbid feeling which comes to us as the
fruit of uninterupted misgovernment from the time of Henry 11.
to the time of WilliarnlV.•' which has come down to the states-
men of the present time to.deal with as they best may. And
now, Sir, to that immediate cause. The state of Ireland, if I
understand it rightly, is a state of disease, but then it was not