The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

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surprised at the case he attempts to make upon the to have an effect upon the persons he addressed—was it because
question. What were the Noble Lord's arguments in support he was a man of eminence that he was to be relieved from a
isit maintaining the Established Church in Ireland ? One was prosecution ? It was this that made the prosecution the more
that in 1757, and in 1792, and some other years which the necessary. The Noble Lord and several Hon. Gentlemen had
Noble Lord mentions, the Roman Catholics, when asking for said that the act of which Mr. O'Connell had been col, icted,
a removal of the present penal laws and disabilities under was done in the face of day. Now, he (the Solicitor-General)
'which they laboured, said that they did not complain of the would make one remark as tothe lawfulnessof thoseproeeedings.
Church Establishment. Did any body ever hear of such a He apprehended that it was a sufficient answer to the Noble
season for keeping up such a system? Is it not perfectly Lord to say that the question had been under the consideration
notorious that in the ordinary progress of affairs men suffering of the Court possessing the highest criminal jurisdiction in the
wader any grievances, and feeling some more strongly than country, and it had been decided by the unanimous concurrence
antlers, ask to get rid of the most severe? When they of the judges of that Court, that the form of the proceedings
mere suffering from other penal laws, and did not was according to the law. But it was said that Mr. O'Connell
ask for a removal of the Established Church, was had not been guilty of a conspiracy, for the Noble Lord said
that a reason why they did not desire its removal ? that conspiracy was always secret and dark. Why, the same
Why, I could give the Noble Lord an instance in his own argument might be applied to the cases of conspiracy which
practice in that respect. Does not every one know that in the had been tried in England. The indictment against the
agitation for the abolition of the slave trade, all its advocates Chartists was for assembling together great bodies of the
aliselaimed in the most earnest manner the intention of seeking people, and for addressing them in seditious speeches. A
ao emancipate the slaves? Such was the language of Lord conspiracy--a political conspiracy—might be dark and secret,
(Grenville, of Mr. Pitt, of Lord Howiek (now Earl Grey), and as, where power was in one hand, and the object
of Mr. Fox, when he brought in his Bill on the subject. Mr. was to transfer that power to another. It would
'Wilberforce used the same language ; and, in 1807, the present be conspiracy if an attempt were made to excite
:Duke of Northumberland proposed to introduce a Bill to abo-
the people to rebellion and resistance, or by attempting to in-
lish slavery. Mr. Wilberforce pulled him down, and said timidate a Government by a display of masses of the people, or
the physical force of the country. The course of proceeding
"" our victory is to be over the slave trade." And when the
'Noble Lord brought is his 8.11, in which he developed that in the two cases must be wholly different. The parties worked
plan with his usual ability, in which he pointed out all the hor-
by different means. They assembled large masses of the people,
rible evils he was going to remove, what would he have said if they published seditious placards, and made' seditious
a person had got up in the House, and declared with Mr. speeches. Their object was to inflame, to agitate,
Pitt and Mr. Fox that his argument was to be an and madden the people. It was plain that this was conspiracy.
argument against the Noble Lord carrying out his These acts were so directed as if they were intended to intimi-
views ? This, happily, the Noble Lord has refuted by his own date the Parliament, and all Ireland was filled with tumultuous
practice. The Noble Lord said much about the impossibility meetings.—( Hear, hear.) It was for these offences they were
of repealing the sth article of the Act of Union. Now the tried and convicted. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had
j
fourth article of the Act of Union fixed the proportion of the just sat down had said, that if there were anything unfair in
number of Members for Great Britain. The fourth article was the trials it would deprive the verdict of all moral effect.
altered, and who was it that brought in the Bill to effect that With respect to the unfairness of the trial—the first thing in
alteration ? The Noble Lord.—( Cheers from the Opposition. ) importance—was the formation of the jury.—(Cheers.) The
Well, then, to come to the Noble Lord's argument respecting Government might have proceeded with a common jury. But
the Roman Catholic oath. If the Noble Lord were present I that would have precluded the traversers from the privilege of
should be inclined, with all the great personal respect which I challenging the jury ; and it was the opinion of the Govern-
entertain for him, to be a little snore severe, but now I shall ment that a special jury would be liable to less objection. On
merely confine myself to his argument in the case. When was that account express directions were given by the Government,
such an argument ever heard of? Put it even in the strongest that it should be a special jury, in order that both parties
way, and it amounts only to this, that the Roman Catholic should stand upon equal terms.—(Hear, hear, and great
Members should walk out when we were going to vote laughter.) Then, when they came to the fact of striking the
on the subject of the Church Establishment. But when we, jury—he thought that there was ne ground of complaint.
the orthodox Protestant Members, are present, what is the Instructions were given by the Government that
course to be adopted ? Is a man not to vote on the subject, Catholics should not be struck off as Catholics,
because a particular individual in the House is tied up by an hut that the same objection, was to apply equally
oath on the question ?—( Hear, hear.) Are we other to Protestants and Catholics. There was nothing from which
640 Members, who are not so tied up, not to it could be inferred that there was any intention to insult the
discuss the question ? If the Noble Lord has no other Roman Catholics. How could it be, that out of a list of
argument than this in support of his system, he has a very poor 717 qualified persons the panel was struck, whereas the old
ease indeed. I hope the Government will deal with this sub- panel consisted of only 308? But it was said, upon the other
ject in a larger and mere comprehensive manner, and as a
side, that it was impossible to have a fair trial by jury in Ire-
matter worthy its high position. The Right Hon. Gentleman land. Nothing so severe had been said on his side of the
at the head of the Government will not come down, lam confi. House.—(Tory cheers.) It was proposed that when a Ca-
dent, to discuss such a question with a piece of an old journal in tholic was to be tried the jury were to consist of half Pro-
his hand, and tell us something about 1792 and 1797—he testants and half Catholics. Why, if the statements of gen-
will feel that he must do battle upon this question, as it tlemen opposite were true, the consequence of that would be
has reference to an institution, as it is either a good or a bad that there would be no verdict at all. There had been a great
one. What are the ends for which an Established Church deal said of the omission of some names from the list of special
exists ?—(llear. ) Does the Church in Ireland accomplish jurors, but it had been clearly shown—indeed nobody denied—
those ends ?—( Hear.) Can a Church which has no hold on that the omission was a matter of mere accident, and that the
the great body of the people be other than useless or worse ? person through whose negligence the mistake occurred, was
Has the Church in Ireland that held on the people ?—( Hear.) himself a Roman Catholic.
It has existed two centuries and a half, and has she yet sue- Mr. SHELL—Oh no, ir,deed.
ceeded in making such a great conquest among the Irish The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Then if the Right Hon.
people, that she can be called, like the Church of England, or Gentleman knew who was the guilty person, he ought to name
the Church of Scotland, the poor man's church ? Has she him.
induced the body of the people to join her, or has she excited Mr. SHIEL—I only said it was not a Roman Catholic.
in them a reverence or a respect for the State? These are The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would repeat, that if the
the rational grounds on which a Church is supported, and not Right Hon. Gentlemen knew who it was, he ought to accuse
the views advocated in a speech made many years ago, and in him openly in that House. -
a petition presented in the reign of George 11., by an un- Mr. SHEIL made an observation which did not reach the
happy and persecuted people, who, under such laws as those gallery, but which was followed by laughter and cheers.
of the penal code, did not ask for the removal of the Established The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—If the Right Hon. Gen-
Church, and did not even dream of asking fora seat in Parliament. tleman made the charge, it was one which was directly con.
But, Sir, I have said now quite enough to entitle me to tradicted by all of those who had arty thing to do
give the vote which lam going to do. I think myself that with the conduct of the prosecution, and of whom
those evils have been brought upon us by the false and several were Members of that House.—(Tory cheers.)
pernicious policy which the Government have pursued, and He had heard harsh comments made upon the conduct
I do not think there is any possibility, that while their sys. of his Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, but upon
tom is followed in Ireland that country can be peaceable. a careful review of his conduct he (the Solicitor-General) had
I also think it utterly impossible that till Ireland is peace- seen nothing from the commencement but a great willingness
to accommodate the accused, and he never opposed them un-
able and well affected the empire can enjoy its proper dig-
nity, and that which is perhaps better than dignity—secu-
tit they showed a determination to evade the trial, if the forms
rity. 1 am confident that in every negotiation that
of law would avail them for that purpose.—(Cheers.) He
may be concluded, whether with France respecting consented in all stages to postpone the procedings whenever the
the right of search, or with America respecting application for postponement had a reasonable pretext. In his
the settlements in the Pacific, however the negotiators may
address to the jury he showed the greatest temper and modera-
avoid mentioning the subject, the remembrance of the state of tion—(A laugh)—as well as the most consummate discretion,
Ireland is, in the minds of those negotiators, constantly di'-
as a man representing the Crown in a grave prosecution.—
pressing the one and emboldening the other. And so it must (Hear, hear.) The speech of the Solicitor-General
necessarily be with this greatly extended and mighty empire, was also remarkable for its temper and discretion,
well provided though it be with every means of offence and de-
and the entire absence of any wish to press upon
fence. This empire has at her command means which no the accused. He did not think that the accusation
other empire that ever existed in the world possessed. She can of unfairness came gracefully from the Noble Lord who
stipulate terms of peace to the Court of China. She governs brought forward this motion. It had been admitted by those
Australasia and Caffraria. It is in her power to drive from the who followed the Noble Lord en the same side that he had
seas the commerce of every country on the globe, and again
failed, and wholly failed to substantiate the charge of unfair-
blockade all the ports of Europe, from the Baltic to nese. He (the Attorney-General would ask, did not a grave re-
the Adriatic. It is in her power to guard her sponsibility rest upon him and upon those who supported this
Indian empire against every attack. But, amidst motion ?—( Loud cheers.) He wished to make a remark on
all this mass of power, there is one vulnerable point the charges made against the Government. When they were
near ,to her heart in which some forty-five years ago a told by Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen opposite that they
blow was struck which had nearly proved fatal. For the did not redress the crying grievances of Ireland he looked, but
revival of such a state of things again Parliament is re- looked in vain, for some tangible charge. When it was said
sponaible, but for my part of that responsibility I clear myself that since the present Administration had been in power they
of it, by the vote lam about to give in favour of the motion of had not consulted the feelings of the Roman Catholics, he
my Noble Friend, anti I earnestly hope I shall have on that asked them to cease from mere assertion, and to give him one
occasion so large and respectable a party as may satisfy the tangible charge.—( Hear, hear.) They gave him none—no, not
Irish Roman Catholics that they still have friends in England, one —( Cheers. ) The only thing they even attempted
and that they must not relinquish the hope of protection from was to say—(but they never attempted to prove)—to say
the wisdom and justice of the Imperial Parliament.—( Loud that their administration of patronage had not been equal be•
and long-continued cheers.) tween the Catholic and the Protestant. Now he ventured to
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he fully appreciated say that in the mind of every Member of the Administration,
the eloquence of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat there was the strongest and most anxious desire to maintain a
down, but at the same time he felt it to be his duty to allude to perfect system of equality between Protestants and Catholics.
—( Hear, hear.) And here again he would ask for an instance
the motion which the Noble Lord had brought before the House.
He (the Solicitor-General) would ask what had induced the wherein this rule had not been followed out. Tell him art
Noble Lord to bring that motion before the House ?—(Hear, instance where the Government had bestowed an office upon a
hear, from the Ministerial benches.) He should take the Protestant where a Catholic equally competent could be found
answer from what had fallen from the Gentleman oppo- to fill it. The Noble Lord (Russell) had talked about the
site, when he said that the object was to pass a vote of censure Master of the Rolls. Why the man whom the Government
on her Majesty's Ministers, for their general conduct of affairs had made Master of the Rolls was Attorney-General in the
since their accession to office, and above all for their adminis. Administration of which the Noble Lord was a leading Mem-
tration in Ireland, and in the case of the State prosecutions. ber.—(Cheers.) He was a man of the highest talent, and he
Such being the undeniable result of the Noble Lord's motion, asked if there was a Roman Catholic then at the bar who for
he (the Solicitor-General) would ask, would not the effect of one moment could be put in competition with him ? —(Cheers. )
it be to give encouragement to those who violated the They could not find one—they could not name one. Why,
law in Ireland—( Cheers from the Tory benches)—and to thsn, what did they mean by bringing these charges
those who were disaffected towards the Government? of unfairness against the Government without one fact
He thought also he had a right to complain of the particular to swpport them ?—Loud cheering.) Let them bring
time at which the Noble Lord had brought forward this mo- one instance of supposed unfairness or injustice, and he under.
tion, because although the verdict of the jury had been brought took it should be answered.—(Cheers.) But he must, before
in, no sentence had been, as yet, pronounced, and he now, by sitting down, say a word upon another point. When they were
his motion, called upon the House to give an opinion, not told that their measures, as far as they went, were good, but
alone as to the legality of the matter, but also as to its policy. that they would be of no avail, and that no measure would be
From his (the Solicitor-General's) close observation of the of use in restoring permanent peace to Ireland while the Pro-
course of those trials to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
testant Establishment existed there—•whenihe heard these sen-
alluded, he shOuld say that no man with an unprejudiced mind timents uttered and cheered as they had been by gentlemen
could proriepnce them to be otherwise than perfectly fair, and opposite, he was anxious to know on what authority they were
that they jury had pronounced the only verdict which could he made.—( Hear, hear.) For he knew that the heads of the
; cojpeaefre the evidence before them. Let them look to the Catholic Church and the leaders of the Catholic body had ab-
!, stgcenneeekeh',lreland was at the time when those prosecutions solutely repudiated the idea of taking anything from the State.
were I.3*eksheel, and then ask themselves whether the Govern-
—( Hear, hear.) They would take nothing from the State—
' latent were not fully justified in the course which they had they would have no endowment. What then did Honourable
adopted.- In -October the prosecutions were begun, and Members mean by saying that they would never be satisfied
at that -time, and for months before, the Repeal till that Church, whose endowments they sought not, was de-
• agitation hid , been in most active operation, and the stroyed ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it indeed true that though they
Repeal Association had been carrying out its objects in a did not seek the honours or the revenues of the Protestant
manner which tended to the subversion of all order. In Church of Ireland, yet that the price of peace was to be its de-
alluding 'to the Repeal Association, he felt it necessary to say a struction?—(Cheers. ) If that were so, then there would not
few words—the more so because he was not present when the be peace—(Cheers)—but he, for one, did not believe it—
Noble Lord spoke of Ilia body. He (the Solicitor-General)( Cheers )—and he ventured to hope that the measures which
would say that the objects and intent of that Association were from time to time the Government would propose would
to effect ostensibly a repeal of the union, but he felt convinced have the effect of giving not only peace, but
that the result of such a measure would, if carried, be an ulti- happiness and prosperity to that country.—(Cheers.) lie
inatenpaiition of the two countries. The Noble Lord had said did venture to hope that when it was known in Ireland that
-,tleat the kesocielion was like any other, and should therefore the trade of agitation would no longer be permitted—( Cheers)
nee—and that the Legislature was willing to lend an ear to all
ierlilte stelel tion.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the
eenee'rialßarliainent had the right to repeal an Act of Parlia- matters of reasonable complaint, a peaceful and prosperous
Silent; Vat he thought there were certain Acts which must be tranquillity would be restored to Ireland, and life and pro•
considered as permanent from their nature—(Cries of " Oh, party would have the same security as in other portions of the
oh")—and one was the Act of Settlement, by which her Ma-
British empire.—( Loud cheers.)
jests held the Crown, beside which he would place the Act Lord JOHN RUSSELL briefly explained; and on the
of Union-. He thought that no body, associated for motion of several Members, all speaking at once, the debate
the purpose of altering the basis upon which the Mo- was adjourned till to-morrow (this day),
narchy and the Constitution rested, could be legal. RAILWAYS.
It had been said that the law had been strained in Ireland, Mr. GLADSTONE moved that it be an instruction to the
but it must be borne in mind to whom the cards were given. Committee on Railways, that they have power to consider of
They were given to men who were absolutely at the disposal, any arrangements advantageous to existing railway companies,
and under the command, of one of the parties who were after- to which, in the opinion of the Committee, Parliament might
wards indicted, he meant the lion. and Learned Member for justly give its sanction.
Cork (Mr. O'Connell). They were men at his disposal and Mr. HAWES said, that they ought to be cautious how
under his command, and were ready either for action or in they interfered with Acts of Parliament, that authorised the
action. They were ready to remain quiet and bide their time expenditure of large sums of money. He did not mean to
as they were directed, or to muster for action at a given dispute the power of Parliament so to interfere, but it was
signal. All this was attended by the assembling in different usual for a Minister to explain more fully what his objects
parts of Ireland of hundreds of thousands of people marching were than the Hon. Gentleman had done.
in order under their repeal wardens as officers—mustering oli Mr. GLADSTONE said, he had last session explained his
the ground in such numbers that anything like discussion or opinions and intentions on this subject more fully, and he ,id
deliberation was wholly impossible. At these meetings the not mean to weary the House with a repetition of them. 'llie
leaders of the people hurled defiance against the Government Committee would have equal regard for the interest of private
of the country. They not only spoke defiance, but they even individuals and the advantage of the public.
thi eatened war, saying that they were ready to meet the people After a few words from Dr. BO WRING the motion was
of England—that they were ready for war if the people thought agreed to. .
tit to engage in it. Were such things, he would ask, to be The following Select Committee on Joint Stock Banks was
allowed to continue ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked whether it was then moved for :—Mr. W. E. Gladstone, Lord Granville
was consistent with the well-being of the country for the Go-
Somerset, Sir George Grey, Sir Walter James, Colonel T.
vernment to allow such a state of things to continue? It had Wood, 31r. nines, Mr. Hawes, Sir W. Clay, Mr. Oswald,
been said that the law had been strained. Now he fearlessly Mr. G. Craig, Mr. Cripps, Mr. Godson, and Mr. Young
put it to any Hon. Gentleman whether such a state of things Colonel RA WDON moved for returns of the naval service
could exist in any country ealling itself civilised—could it employed on the cuast of Ireland from 1834 to the present pe-
exist in a country where the law was properly vindiceed ? He riod describing the number and class of such vessels, and the
thought it could not. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had number of men and officers employed for each year.
just sat clown said that the difficulties of the Government were A few Orders of the Day were disposed of, anti the House
to come, for if they attempted to enforce their sentence on adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.
Mr. O'Connell, there would be an outbreak in Ireland. If
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman had violated the law the
Government would be neglecting their duty if they did not en-
force the law. Her Majesty's Ministers finding that such
was the state of things in Ireland decided that they would not
come to that House for additional powers, but that they would
trust to the force of the common law for restoring order in
Ireland. In consequence of this the late prosecutions were
instituted. The Right Honourable Gentleman who had
just sat down had said the law adopted in Ireland in the
late trials was not the usual or ordinary law. The Right
Honourable Gentleman said there were precedents to be
found in the seventeenth century but not since. The
Noble Lord opposite had designated it as " judge-
made law." With respect to this expression of the
Noble Lord he could only say that if the Noble Lord
meant that the indictment had been formed upon the common
law, as declared and recognised by successive judges from the
judgment-seat, he (the Solicitor-General) perfectly agreed
with him. The Noble Lord said he was no lawyer, but the
Noble Lord knew enough of the law and constitution of this
country, to convince him that the common law of England, as
declared and recognised by the judger, was the security upon
which the lives, the property, and the freedom of the people of
this country mainly deended. But the Rig ht Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down, had satelef
that no precedent for the
law, as laid down in Ireland, could
b (the Solicitor-General)ound since theseven-
teenthfound
an
indictment which ran in almost the same words as the late in-
dictment in Ireland, and this indictment was in
andt
the
year 1795. The persons on that occasion weren n
the sentence of the Court of Queen's B. oh
ment; Lord Kenyon at the time being Lord Chiers iris'n-
and- Mr. Justice Lawrence and Mr. Justice Ashurstuthee'
were
the counsel. He could come even to later dates,
He held in his hand an indictment, which had
been preferred by Lord Campbell when he was Attorney..
General under the Noble Lord's ( Lord J. Russell) Govern-
:Dent. That indictment was for a conspiracy of a precisely
similar nature to the one in Ireland. The form of the indict-
ment was almost in words the same, and upon it the defendants
were convicted in this country, and were sentenced to imprison-
ment and fine. Why, since he (the Solicitor-General) had
held the office he at present had the honour to fill, it had been
his duty, at the last special commission in Stafford, to direct an
indictment of a precisely similar kind. The Magistrates had
committed the defendants for high treason, but he (the Soli-
eitor-General) did not treat the case as one of high treason,
but indicted the parties for conspiracy. Two of those parties
ME • ted, and were now under sentence. This was an
.1i England, against persons of comparative
- ,d was it a reason, because the person
se
ilir..\ ekof eminence, and therefore more likely
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COMMON PLEAS.-(THIS DAY.)

FRASER V. BAGLEY:CIint. CON.
This case was resumed this morning, but had not been
brought to a conclusion when our paper went to press.

UNION HALL.-(THIS DAY.)
Edgar Ford, a young man of respectable appearance, was
charged before Mr. Trail!, with forging the acceptance to a
bill of exchange for 71. 4s. 6d., purporting to be the accept-
ance of Caroline Carpenter.
Mr. Press stated that he had several money transactions
with the prisoner previously to the present charge. That in
the month of November, he (complainant) discounted the
bill produced, dated the 7th of November, for 71. 4s. 6d., pur-
porting to be the acceptance of Caroline Carpenter. When
the bill became due, the prisoner endorsed another bill to
take the former one up, when it was ascertained that the
acceptor's name to both were forgeries. This the complainant
discovered by writing to Caroline Carpenter, who, on examin-
ing the bills, immediately pronounced them to be forgeries.
The prisoner, on being asked what he had to say in answer
to the charge, replied that lie should say nothing at present.
As Mrs. Carpenter was not present, the prisoner was re-
manded.

WILSON'S SCOTTISH ENTERTAINMENTS. The
Music-hall, Store-street, was last night crowded to excess,
and many persons were compelled to retire, unable to get
within the walls. Mr. Wilson gave on the occasion what he
calls his selected entertainment, which contains many of
those delightful old songs, humorous and pathetic, which he
has made so peculiarly his own, and which he never gave
with richer gusto than last evening, for he was in capital
voice, and seemed to revel in the feeling and fun of the va-
rious strains with which he delighted his audience. Ile an-
nounced for next Monday his Entertainment of " Mary
Queen of Scots," the songs and exquisite old melodies of
which made so great an impression on his first producing it.
na admirers,
Mr. Wilson gave some of his entertainments with immense
success last
wee
k andin visits
themrpoland
againManchester,duri
during
the wp
present
the
week.has
have paid, through the Co
SAVING LIVES FROM SHIPWRECK
.—The
at Deal,
French
.
Government
Ist sevices
Wilkins, and other Deal boatmen, 40Ons
in saving the lives of the crew of the French
Louis Philippe; and has ordered a silver medal to lugger
pre-
sented to each of those bsave men, for their generous conduct
on that occasion.
The President of the Royal Society has appointed
the 2d, 16th, and 30th of the ensuing month, for his soirees
to the Fellows of that learned body.

N a --g,'

Now ready, at all the Libraries, in post Bvo.,
C ONFESSIONS of a WHITE FOOT.
Richard Bentley, New Burlington-street.

ET ER MAJESTY'S THEATRE
SEASON 1844.

The following outline of the arrangements for the ensuing season
is respectfully presented to the Nobility, Subscribers, and the Public.