The Sun.
London, England, 1821-05-08 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES.

The Order of the Day for the House going
into a Committee of Supply was then read. On
the question that the Speaker should leave the Chair,
Mr. HUME rose, and calling the attention of
the Hon. Member opposite to the proposed vote
respecting the works in the dock yard at Sheer-
ness, begged to be informed whether there would
be any objection to postpone the vote until the
result should be known of a correspondence be-
tween the Admiralty awl another office on the
subject, &r to go into a Committee for the pur-
pose of inquiring into the- necessity of those
works, The Honourable Member then went into
some details, sheaving that the total oxpence of
working in this dock yard since 1,810 was up-
wards of a million, and that 900,0001. were now
required for improvements in the works. Ile
thought it impossible that the House would pro-
ceed to a vote for this sum without the most
satisfactory information.

Sir GEORGE WARRENDER said, lie thought it

had been understood that the discussion was to
be postponed until each particular vote came to
be considered. There was not the least objec-
tion to give the fullest information upon every
part of the subject. The fact was, that there
was a distinction. between the works in the old
and thOke in the nelir yard.. The new works
would be cOznplete4 for 30,0045/. !eryiban,She
sum originally proposett; and these works had
been going on for five years. lie should be
happy to explain every item on coming to the
vote, and he trusted he should be able to satisfy
the lion. Member; but a very inconvenient
delay would take place by waiting for the papers
in question.

Mr. WAnnr. said this was the proper time for
the House to know what it was about. Last
year he knew that in these Estimates a sum of
170,0001. had been voted for completing the
works in question, and he now saw an additional
sum of 953,000/. also for completing. It was a
matter of indifference whether the works were in
the new or old yard. It was clear that an Es-
timate was now proposed which had not been in-
tended last year:

Sir B. MARTIN spoke briefly in support of the
Estimate.
Mr. HustE said, that under circumstances
which produced estimates so various from each
other, he felt it his duty to move an amendment
to the original motion. This he should_ do in
the shape of a Resolution; declaring the- sums
voted, and now demanded, proved the necessity
of strict inquiry before coming to the -vote now
called for. There were many items put down as
uncertain, and as the Report he had quoted re-
commended that they should never vote money
away without knowing how it was to be applied,
this deficiency in the estimates strengthened his
wish for a Committee of Inquiry. lie hoped,
therefore, he should not be opposed in his mo-
tion. He confessed he was the more anxious
for inquiry on this subject, as he had heard
from many scientific and naval men of expe-
rience, that there existed some doubts as to the
propriety .of continuing Sheerness as a naval
station, and that it' was in Contemplation to
remove the estahlishment to Chatham, the in-
vention of steam: vessels having now made. it
possible to. get vessels of any size to the latter
place, which at the time -of making .the Dock-.
yard at Sheerness was .the .only objection to
Chatham.- The lion. Gentleman concluded by
moving, as an Amendment to the-question," that
the Speaker leave the Chair," a Resolution to
the effect,." That it appeared that the sum of
1,147,0001. had been voted during the last eleven
years for the improvement of the Dock-yard at
Sheerness ; and it also appeared that a further
sum woulil be required •fo- r the purpose of corn-
pleting those improvements, making with that
already expended, upwards of two millions.—
That the further. sum was now required not-
withstanding declarations on occasion of two
former votes, that they would be the last, and
that under these conflicting circumstances, it was
expedient to appoint a Committee of Inquiry be-
fore granting thin vote."

Sir G. -COCKBURN observed, that the repairs
and improvements for which this grant was re-
quired were already begun, and it was therefore
necessary to go on with them, otherwise they
would sustain considerable injury.

Sir JOSEPH YORKE said he should like to be
informed-who were the clever personages' that
had informed the Hon. Member Chatham was
better than Sheerness as a dock yard. In the
former, vessels were very apt to run upon their
moorings. Chatham was by no means the best
adapted for the purposes required : besides,
Sheerness contained an expanse of water suffi-
cient to contain 100 line of battle ships. In the
former it had been found that many of the ships
were worm-eaten, and Sheerness was adopted in
consequence. This was at the time of the ex-
pedition to Antwerp. He was persuaded that the
stoppage-of the works would render a disservice
to the colintry. -
Sir I. COFFIN agreed that it would be highly
inconvenient to stop the works.
Mr. BENNET 'Faid, the motion of his lion.
Friend had been completely misunderstood. His
Hon. Friend did not ask the Muse to stop the
SuPplies: Ile Merely :said, "We have been
so often deceived, that we ought_ not to vote
money without previous information." If- the
former plan had failed, it was by no means im-
probable, that the plan now proposed would also
fail. If 'the House went honestly to work, the
truth would be.extracted in a Committee. Se-
veral sums were asked without any estimate at
all. No- proposition was more fair than that of
his Hon—Friend. He merely asked them to look
before they leaped.
Sir GEORGE COCK.BURN explained.

Sir GEORGE WARRENDER said, all the points
would be explained in the Committee. The for-
mer estithates had had the sanction of the House,
and it therefore was not fair to press upon the
variance between them and those for the present
year.

Mr. IfuNtE explained.—All he desired was a
Committee to inquire. He had not the slightest
wish to -cause any inconvenience by the delay,
and he would therefore-suggest a temporary vote
of 50,000/. to colitinuestbe works for two or' throe
weeks pending the inquiry.
Mr. WARRE 'spoke its favour of the Amend-
ment. The House then divided on the Amend-
ment, when the -numbers were—

Par the Amendment • - .* 27
Against it - - - - - - •82
• Majority for the Original Motion —.55
COMMITTEE, OP SUPPLY.

The Douse having resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of Supply,
Sir G. WARIMNDER moved that the sum of
50,967/31s. Gd: be granted to his Majesty, to
defray the expences of the diffeient Victualling
Yards.

• Mr. if.EnNAL objected to the amount of this
vote-on account of an useless piece of extrava-
gance in the keeping up hulks attached to most
of the Naval stations, for the purpose of receiving
victualling stores, from which to victual the dif-
ferent skips. Ire thought the ships should be
allowed, as formerly, to send their boats to the
Office.

Sir B:MAIITI:N shewed that this 'system was in

fact an extremely economical one, and .saved
great deal of money to the public, by the p3'o6-
mity of the depot to the vessels, and the conse-
quent facility and dispatch with which they were
victualled.
Mr. lIUME asked whWer theft was any In'
creaskili the expence or.the,Deptford Yarid, ag
he pkerkied, fliatipNtile fast three years there
had been a gradual increase in the amount of tile
estimate. We wished also to know if there Wtls
any likelihood of a diminution being made in fu-
ture years ?
Sir Q. COCKBURN said it was certainly intended
to make such reductions as should appear eligible.
After a few words from Mr. WARRE, the gra''
was agreed to.
The next grant was, 70,9621. 4s. Gd. ror de'
fraying the expence of the Medical Establish-
ments, which, after a few words from Mr. Ho".
and Sir G. CocKarluaN, was agreed to.—The
next grant was, 6,9561. 16s. 3d. for the College.
of Naval Architecture..

Sir J..YORKE asked whether any security was
taken from the Students in, this College, that they
would not go over to. America or some other ro-
reign Power, thereby, instead of
_giving this
country the benefit of their instruction, :r.lakin,,,
use of it against it.
Sir I. COFFIN said, it was not likely that Arne"
rica, or any other Power, would take shipivrigilts
from this country, as it was proved by all the
ships we had taken from them, that they•o3'
their ships much better than we did.
•
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that it was for the
very reason stated. by the Hon. Baronet Sir a
Coffin), that it was found necessary to appoint
school for instruction in that important broch°,
knowledge. The number or students wasllwl';'
ed to 22, and it had,*not.been thought necesor'sr
to take any security of the nature alludes-1 0,,,,
the Honourable Member. The Vote was
agreed to. f°..
r
On the motion for the grant of 105,390' „-
the wages of officers, shipbuilders 3 and men "t
tached to the Dock Yard,
. Mr. Humg wished to know whether the crew
or officers of the Royal yachts were upon itlo
Pay all the year round, as it appeared survea, •
were. The lion. Member made some obsercio
tions as to the increased expellee of late years " •
consequence of the fitting up of three yachts.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that the Mate and ,';41,11;
goon_ of the Royal yacht were on full pay. k,
men were taken from the labourers in the ri'c'
JO
yards ; but in point of the expellees of fit linvia,
the yachts, he hoped the House would not grt.zt,
the King's having a ship fitted up in Oil
though not extravagant style.—(iiaar!)--A.seuse
Sovereign of these islands, he thought the I',,,rst
ought to feel pride in his going to sea in the
style.—(llear !)
The following Grants were then'voted 1.0
For victualling ships in ordinary - - ''1101144)
For harbour mooring and rigging - 2107°'
Ordinary repairs in dock-yards -
stion'
On the latter vote being put to the qu''-.0 01;5
Sir J. YORKE said he was disappointed l'lssia:.4
item being as, it stood exactly last
expected a reduction. of 615
Sir 13. MARTIN said that the amount s 't
vote would not appear extraordinary' Qar
was considered that there were seven Doc
.`OO uiv
and-that almost all the ships in cornrois'
derwent a trimming in dock every year' for t'i'
Mr. CROKER stated, that the vote for f`'`'
purpose in 1817, was 50,0001. more than
of
present year. half-14;
The next grant 'was 970,4001. as
Officers in the Navy.
ce of r
Mr. BENNET remarked on the abses"as of frd:
propriate regulations in the Navy in e3e of tiar
sanity in the Officers. He stated a 91: were i"."
ship upon two Ladies whose husban"
sane, but who had beet refused a Pens
e regu
" Sir G. COCKBURN - stated that 't take l'r°
ot
acted upon by the Admiralty, w3swho were
per care of those insane office''' that pvl",sif
married, appropriating their pay too take ili;
and, where they were married,
sob'
of their pay for that purpose.- ds on 01.0
Sir J. NEWPORT said a feW wot 9
jest. ,ntio"
his inti of tiiO
Mr. BUXTON gave notice Of •„leration
bring this subject under the eons's" d obKr.
House at a fature time, but he wis"e_, nart
in the meantime,. that the princ!
P'ansricere2l/
Hon. Friend's cag- had not been. 056(11'. :so
; in (I IN •
as to the .treatmelt of the TA'ad.e- kome
victrl
officer, who had
was his lion. Friend's wish to, the s"t,stioil
should not be entitled to•the Mrn,
as though he had last a limb. the coo"
babiY t`h have
Mr. CROKER observed, that Pr°, t
ps t 7 ono
duct of the individualS 'thernse'v: the arr
been the means of their not reeelvlnig:t
was ekrbio.s,
lost Ids reason ti.coosid„),
of allowance which they desis,ol, of their gat
that they had received the lialf-P'?)11t, was.,fhe
bands at a time when
aware of it, or would not have per!'
regulations of the Admiralty on 0
lion.ii:csieutuit'i u
as had been stated by oder
Cockburn), and he thought theyramunk. The }s`'
a
the eircinnstaures, be more equ,1.162 roiati"nscom,„
tlhlies
of the Officers' pay was issued ~ijoo of a
from
. the op void
great legal risk, as it was
~,00ld 5
petentlawyer, that an. action_rtaer of the a
“tfacer wh° hail lost
as
it.ohrethreelantlioonnesyagsoaiiitssstutehde.Tres“,o%it come
for
There *as no doubt that all, country, lost
his reason in the
•.Ser;,•iee of
leis
though he loci
muttony ex-
hil\l Cilog"
Mr. BENNET an& r•
d fallen from
planted. •
chat
musclhedn).t.it.lel to a pension as trion= -
he Adnl"3 here had
the Hon. Secretary to t
Lord MILTON
tood, that t
t of 010
it ought to be Clearly tinders ths, par
• nduct .0i;
been no fraudulent co
two ladies. . • 1 only been some
• there -
Mr. Citorcra said, , I ay
of tot - • 11/.15'
irregularity 0:1 the part,
.half../,,,y of t,"
ofx
in- ladies receiving tt!,,,,,..n.;:.aity
been zo%are
bards, which 'bad he
it a s“) 1.) ‘" •
'they would have pi
~
said, after. it., he
thought
fter a, fe w. words fro!. r 7..

kern
Sir t. Coffin, and Mr. Warre, the'vote was
agreed to.
The following . •
grants were then voted :
SuPerannuations and Pensions to Officers and their
Relations - - - - - - - £142,096
Naval Chaplains
,500
- . _ . -
Cornpassionate Fund - .. . . _ - 7,000
On the latter grant being put to the question,
Mr. HARBOR]) asked, whether the children of
Officers of marines were entitled to receive allow-
ances from this fund. The Hon. Gentleman
stated a case individual hardship, in which an
°Meer had had great stoppages made from his
Pay, but whose children were, not allowed the
benefit of this Fund.
Mr. Cit(HCER said, that upon the general prin-
ciple the distribution of the Compassionate List
was most disinterested and-equitable. The lion
Gentleman ought to know that the Compassionate
fun.]
-... was not dependent upon stoppages from
Pay or tithings of any description, as it could
hot in that case be borne on the Estimates. It
Aaq
- eVeillY distributed by the- First Lord of the
iiilltniralty, and it was the most painful part of
, duty to be called on to decide upon the
claims of different unfortunate individuals.
Mr a
We •- Tr -r.REORD asked if the Orphans of Marine, Officers
4 entitled to admission in the Greenwich School.
righrr: C-110KER said they were eligible, but had no claim of
dowThe next resolution was for a grant of 32,0001. for the Wi-
hi, al..ii Orphans.
for tiie'UME wished to ask why a salary had been appointed
Mr-p'eretary, and why it had only been found in 1817. _ . _ had I,* -RORER said that this salary was the only one which
Paid 0, been advanced since the year 1733. It had been usually
it Put of old Mores, but in 1817 it was thought better to make
a nistinct iem.ores,
the After a f
soi„-7,ew observations from Mr. Hu arE and Mr. Ca oKEn,
Thee - -° was agreed to. .
lowa,- suto of 105,9781. was then moved for the half-pay al-
4t.ce„,. of Naval Officers.
TH2,4t
o rIIIIVIE hoped that the Hon. Baronet would consent to
Per P ne this Estimate, as he had moved for a return. of the
sc'n to receive this money on the 2d of March, which re-
turnwo,i),ras not yet before the House. As he understood that it
tia;•:' he Printed in the course of 24 or 48 hours, he trusted that
--siltelli WARRENDERbe posoned. , . ,
their rii-G- had no indisposition to_comply with
- ;‘,_4-en• Mei-rib-2es wish.
line Resolution was withdrawn. -
i 'r'ilr ~
heya94WARRENDER then proposed that a sum of
00 be granted for the repair of ships and the works of
Iv At the suggestion of Sir J. YORKE, the heads of this item
tee: e. sparated, and the resolution stood for £1,094,000 for the
Pairs of ships.
1 '4_,Sir J. YORKE considered this to be the most important
to
of the estimate inasmuch as £lOO,OOO might be reduced
ttp it Without difficulty.
rnit. E. MARTIN said, that the contracts which Govern-
,. ent had entered into would render reduction impracticable
"ri the present Estimate.
at' Ir. nifillE objected to the extent to which our Navy was
4upti,_Present kept up, anti moved that the sum of 794,0001. be
tuted for that of 1,094,0001.
N ,l,t G. COCKBURN stated, that the peculiar state of the
01,4'3' required a number of ships to be 13uilt, for t
he purpose
asreas°"lB'. The necessity which the Admiralty. was under
pen war of building ships in haste occasioned considerable ex-
obli,,• Whilst the country had Colonies to defend, they were
Aimee4l to have ships in readiness for service; and sinceT the
Ad- • c.ils had obtained possession of the Floridas, the Naval
tor: nustration found it necessary to keep up an increased
Sir J -,
at to • i ORKE objected to the policy of building Teak ships
Sir Trb- ay-
tan -- MARTIN adverted to the bad condition of the -Navy
lion war, and observed, that the repairs cost ea ly half a mil-
Pow,
,if they were driven into competition with foreign naval
sible IN this country- could not remain supine. It was not p.os-
Ili) a (I't England, a great mercantile :nation, to avoid keepi.ng
I'll4ol'l.°M' force. Independent of that consideration, slap-
Nik,ing was 50 per cent. cheaper in peace than war. I; nth
gere it, to building ships at Bombay, there was reason to' be-
k 4/, ey were of the"greatest durability. -
,7411 h TARRE opposed the amendment. There was no
'aa't•h°' the public service to which heivould be more liberal
qSir Sexilavy.
41',°. V:cIKE, Mr. T. WILSON, Mr. MAXWELL, and Sir
At, litru.'ltßExnaa made a few observations ; after which
sucheath '„!, with permission ,of . the House, withdrew his
,I,t_edlitte-.+6t2 expressing a hope. that Government would make
Of et;_surt,‘",thext year as circumstances appeared to require.
"ea°ft424 648- being proposed to defray the expense
1" -yardsj jA, and , improvements,
and/_ ttiOve,r4E: urged the necessity for reduction of that sum,
`.4ed
but
amendment cutting it down to £212,324.
kriace, butil'et4l.l•o ?N was not disposed to vote for the amended
Pt ,Stahl. , S, to call for some explanation respecting two or
",eat ex„~(lsnunents which appeared new, and productive of
great
aitger,„e. He alluded to the Naval Establishment at Ber-
e Mr. cVA-Vincomalee.
-14ted ' ""tRE complained of the unnecessary expense in-
i,‘, Sir (plehatham_ , in conveying timber through an excavation.
041/1ber.,471k-RRENDER stated that the subject of the Hon.
ortUal nes Objection was the wood mill,. which it was lately
lat cet,,ssarY to re air. The excavation was a tunnel or
Mc' w"leb had 1 p been repaired. With regard to the
gra_,s.at a '-_
ph -ermuda theaso Noble Lord must be aware of the geo-
-LIP in phial situation'ofthat Island. - The force which had grown
Sail'e'e'°llll ~America made' a naval station at Bermuda of ini-
',io 4.,
.; rcumsta.nces which had occurred at Ceylon.
111. pLe,it necessary to have a naval station at Trincomalee.
4,,ua11t r. 1,/ °RKE wished his Gallant Friend to say something
at.„,,,,.oQusoitiub..tileof.Bthreeakwaterat Plymouth-. He was persuaded it
greatest advantage to' his Majesty s Navy, on
1;",°0 the. Coast. With respect to Bermuda, lie under-
;4is, throe ,was a passage left open by which 'an enemy might
0 r f -ga/ 2-4 easy as he could say the name of his honour-
ik3 a e ative 'TACK RoneNsoK !—(A laugh !)—Trincoinalec
44p-laval station of great importance, ant it was a matter of
sit
~e that there had been no naval station at Sladras.
t'e,4 i-r• Q..)CRIBURN said the Breakwater at Plymouth had
ithili ealiuntledi highly
.bene-B__eial. A Rear-Admiral comings into
h ,1011th
.‘orne time since, encountered a heavy gale from
e fau Ue3l, and the moment he got round the Breakwater
trans
,d himself in smooth water. Bermuda, since the Arne-,
navel Possession of Florida, was considered a desirable
44(1 a station. A breakwater could be raised with little expense
Afeed harbour made.
'lttathtt. a few remarks from Mr. Grrrs and Sir G. WAR-
po 11, the House divided—
,: the original on
- - - - 107
A' r the Amendment ' ' . -
.. - - - 30
7`ll, ~ I,l!).lr)rity against the Amendment - - —77
i Neveritganal Motion was consequently -agreed to.
ill'iii... _e other Ilcsoldi:Oes were also agreed to, and the House
,;0,3' to Reportv.-..,s ordered to be received this day.
, uottled at LF-PAST ON't; O'CLOCK.

_ ............--...x
Sl-‘9ItTING INTELLIGENCE.
• I'llrisi,ii.ticsfr ,FinsT SPRING MEETING, la2l.
%,,, ,
31()NDAY, :MAY 7.
keePstakes of ii,silgs ca,:h, colts, Bst. 71b.. fillies, Bst. 21b.
r, • - B. C. filing 4 yrs old. , .
I
D• LdnY's b. c. Abjer, by 'Triefle, out of Tinsels
41.r(V-I!,afton's c. c. Windfall, brother to Whisker 2
i.,,,Lisotes•Lockslev, by Smolensk°, dam by Buz- 3
wit•ki, out of Violet ..
Atll.li,teen Pa-2 to lon Abje.'--7 to 2 agst Lockslev-
t4.. ouverit's Paralus. 7st. 131 b. beat Mr. Greville's l'aCha,
:i4,eolb. Ab.M. 200 gs, h. ft.--5 to 4 agst Paralus.
‘..
.1). epstakes of 200 gs each, h. ft. for fillies... Bst. 71b. ea; it. Ab.M.
D 4 (halloo's b. Zeal, by Partisan, out of Zaida
2
Airof,Portland's ch. by IVaxy, out of Pennytrumpet
3
IL ,4.- L. Fox's hl. Lady Peter by Smolensk°
At It. the D. of York's f. by Pete.,
4
Air •, • One pd-7 to 4on Zeal. -
..
7st.
1).1. • Caney's Champivnon Bst. beat Mr. West's Alpha,
200 . . -, , ' -
sir „ gs.---6 to a agst Champignon.
llot, '''• Shelley's b. E Little .llab, Bst. 21b. beat Gen. GroFe-
ka}:. Domini:chino Bst. Olb. T.Y.C. 50gs.-6 to 4 on Little
Sw
eePstakes of 100g,s each, h. ft. for fillies, cut of untried
Alt. u, mares, ast. 41b. each. Ab.lll.
uq's ch. Ibla, by Truffle, out of Emily rec.
(Vor (tiester, and other Races, see the Fourth Page.)

leicAe.Alosetvile,l, ma, c;1:-----------'77----'-'".----!-----ine, invented b}, a Gentleman of- Christ Col-
It is 1.1„1".1,(-e, was tried last week at Newmarket. In shape
stoa,
ei
.3' tilat of an isosceles triangle, and„ moves with the
,a v til forward, on four wheels. It bas a boom 32, feet long
'lt) nlik".Yl high rOast. It will carry 12 persons at the rate of
k Nov,z., n hour. To the axle of the hinder wheels is fixed
~is capable It Cat go on a wind and tack its a vessel at sea, and
,k to cant °f tking so correctly 4uided, that the pilot at plea-
lan the heasf-Jyer a lit:One.