The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-07 00:00:00

RAILWAYS.

Lord G. SOMERSET moved for leave to intro-
duce the six following Bills !'--The Companies Clauses
Consolidation Bill ; the Lands Clauses Consolidation
Bill ; the Railway Clauses Consolidation Bill ; the
Companies Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Bill ;
the Lands Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Bill ; the
Railway Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Bill. The
object of the Government in introducing these Bills was
to etaboly the statutes which already existed in one
uniform Act. Great uncertainty had hitherto pre-
vailed in reference to the matters which were em-
braced by their provisions; ?tad on this ground it
had been thought desirable that some general Bills
should be introduced. The Noble Lord spoke, in an
extremely low tone, of the proceedings of the Board
of Trade. He could see no objection to fourteen days
being allowed, after the reports of the Board had
been published, for allowing parties to decide whether
they would proceed or not. For his own part, he
should never consider himself bound, either as repre-
senting one particular constituency, or in his more ge-
neral character as a Member of that House, to follow
in the track.of the Board of Trade. He wished it to
be understood that those Bills would not be com-
pulsory; but they would be found to be so useful
that he scarcely apprehended any opposition
to them, and therefore he trusted the House would go
further than he had at first expected, and give them
the support they merited. He did not think it would
be convenient if he troubled the House with any fur-
ther observations, and therefore he would conclude
with this observation, that the copies of the Bills
' would be in the hands of Members by Saturday
next. •

Lord HOW ICK thought the explanation given by
the Noble Lord opposite quite satisfactory. He did
think that fourteen days' notice after the reports of
the Board of Trade were before the public quite suffi-
cient. He thought he also understood the Noble
Lord to say that it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government, when there were two competing lines
reported on, that those reports should be referred to a
Committee of the House. . This was a point of ex-
tretne importance, in order that the report should
have a full and fair scrutiny ; so tha' if this point be
conceded, he was quite satisfied. He would also
wish to remark, in reference to the Bills which the
Noble Lord now proposed to bring forward, that
the country would feel greatly indebted to him
for them, as they would tend greatly to les-
sen the expenses hitherto attending tho:,e
measures ; but before he sat down he would
beg leave to ask when these Bills would be laid
upon the table of the House ? There was one other
observation he had to make. In order to carry out
substantially those arrangements he had been alluding
to, regarding the reports of the Board of Trade, it
would be necessary, where there were reports on two
competing lines, that that which had been unfavour-
ably reported on, should have precedence before the
Committee of that w hick had been favourably re-
ported, for this would be only fair.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought that a company should not be allowed to
carry a Bill through the Committee, where there was
a competing line, without giving the latter an oppor-
tunity of putting forward their case, whether the re-
port of the Board of Trade had. been favourable or not.
Mr. HODGSON wished to say a few words upon
what had fallen from the Noble Lord, who
had said that the line in favour of which the
Board of Trade had reported, should not be proceeded
with in Committee, until the Board should also have
reported on the competing line. Now, he thought
this might in some cases operate unfairly. There
might be two companies, one of which, although
ready to proceed, would prefer delay, in the hope of
forcing 'the competing company to come to a com-
promise; what he should recom•nend was, that after
the Board of Trade had reported in favour of one
line, the other company should be admitted to appear
in opposition before the Committee, with plans and
drawings.
Sir GEORGE GREY though', that the delay
suggested by his Noble Friend was only reasonable,
and would not operate materially to the inconve:...ienee
of the Company favoured in the report of the Board
of Trade.
Sir R. PEEL had said that the Government would
give the subject their impartial consideration, and
they had done so. What he proposed was, that the
parties should be allowed to present their petitions
whenever. they pleased, but that they should not be
obliged to present them before fourteen days:
Lie had that day had an interview with his Right

Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and
he thought it would not be desirable to postpone the
presentation of those reports that related to railways
that might be considered to belong to st particular
class, not immediately bearing on other railwayA,
till the whole of the reports should be ready. His
Right lion. Friend would be prepared in the course
of the next week to take one particular class of rail-
ways—say, the Kentish lines—and present, during the
week, the report on that class, and then proceed with
various other classes. The whole would thus be
divided into six or seven families, if he might so call
them, the interests of which were neither competing
nor connected with other lines, and periodical
reports of them laid before the House. It
was never contemplated that the Board should
in any way fetter or control the dis-
cretion of Parliament. The intervention of the
Board of Trade was for a specific purpose—for afford-
ing information to the House, and that intervention
did not at all involve the Government in any neces-
sity of taking any other part in questions connected
with railroads than it had hitherto done.

Col. SIBTHORP said it was pretty well known
to that House and to the country, that he was not
particularly partial to railroads. He rose now
to ask a question, in consequence of some reports
that had been circulated in reference to certain
members of what was called the Railroad Commis-
sion. The question was, if any of the four or five
gentlemen composing the Commission were connected,
directly or indirectly, with any of those railroads
which had been brought under their consideration ?

Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said it had
never struck him that the question which had been
put by his Gallant Friend would have been asked.
He was not consulted with regard to the formation of
the Committee. All he knew from the communica-

Lions which had been given was, that parties always
expressed themselves satisfied with the fairness and
intelligence with which the cases that came before the
Committee had been discussed.

Mr. WAKLEY said that the question which had
been put by the Hon. and Gallant Colonel was not
answered by the Noble Lord. He di-2 not expect
that it would, because the Noble Lord did not possess
the necessary information_ on the subject. It was

rue, as staled by the Hon. and (;allant•Colonel,

that reports were actively circulated in the
City to the prejudice of holders of rail-
way shares. It was stated generally and
openly by parties acquainted with railway sub-
jects that there must have been some pri •
vale information in the market or parties could
not have made such enormous sums of money
within a few weeks.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet opposite alluded to the circumstance
how dangerous to the character of the Government it
would be, if such an opinion were circulated and
not contradicted or capable of being contra-
dicted. But the Right Hon. Gentleman wished
to have something like a tangible accusation. There
was great difficulty in obtaining such information, but
this was clear, that certain parties in the city who
were engaged in the sale of railway shares happened
to be right in their speculations, and were not wrong
in any one instance for several weeks ; and one gen-
tleman made 40,0001. by the sale of shares in a single
day, the shares having gone from a small premium to
a premium of 91. 10s. or 101. in the course of a few
hours. ThgNoble Lord the Member for Sunder-
land had opened the question last night in a
most able and practical speech. The Right Hon.
Gentleman paid that attention to it which it deserved,
and showed by his decision of adjoUrning the subject,
that he was himself influenced by prejudice, but was
open to receive impressions from either side of the
House. But the question then opened ought
not to be thus abruptly terminated. If the
only result to be obtained by the speech
of the Noble Lord, was an extension of the
time with regard to the introduction of Private Bills,
he would feel greatly disappointed as to the benefit
which he anticipated from the speech which the
Noble Lord had addressed to the House. If he (Mr.
Wakley) recollected rightly, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, when sitting on his (Mr. Wakley's) side of
the House, said that he had sat for 63 or 65 days on, he
believed; the Stafford and Rugby Railway Committee.
During the whole of that time was not one gigantic
company fighting another company, and beating jus-
tice and principle out of doors ? (Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman hid stated that that iniquity
had been
.perpetrated yesterday ; the Right Hon.
Gentleman, in reply to the Noble Lord who had so
ably discussed the subject, stated that it was most
difficult to control barristers in their addresses
to Committees of that House. That was a most
extraordinary declaration for the first Minister of
England to make ; a Minister, be it remembered, who
influenced Foreign Powers in no ordinary de-
gree.—(Hear, hear.) How extraordinary that he
should complain, in his place in Parliament,
of the difficulty of controlling barristers in their ad-
dresses to Committees of that House.—(Laughter.)
He did say that the conduct of Committees of that
House with regard to private Bills was not only inju-
rious to the best interests of the country, but disgraceful
to the cause of justice and detrimental to the
character of that House.—(Hear, hear.) They could
not be ignorant of the practices carried on there.
Why it was well known that barristers of moderate
ability, during the last session, earned their six,
eight, and 12,0001. in the Committees of that
House. The difficulty of controlling barris-
ters Why, the Right Honourable Baronet,
were he applying his vigorous mind to find a remedy,
could do so in less than four hours, and it was only
for want of that application that they had not
the remedy before them. They need not expect
it from the law officers, for barristers had too much
respect for the law, to throw out insinuations
against barristers. The common sense of the people
of England found out the best. mode of transacting
business—of accomplishing their objects. Supposing
the Right Hon. Baronet employed a physician, and
said, "As long as I am in good health I will give you
ten guineas a-day." Why, when did they think the
Right Hon. Baronet would be ill ?—(Laughter.)
Supposing, again, that he got into a cab at the end of
Oxford-street, and said to the cabman —" I
wish to see the Lord Mayor's Mansion-house ;
but I don't know, perhaps you don't, but
drive me about the streets till you find it, and I'll
give you a guinea a day."—(Continued laughter.)
He would, I am assured, be a very long time
in finding it. What was the common rule with
barristers? Thie. They got their fee for a
particular case; and how long did they think
the trial lasted. It was, indeed, a lengthened one if
it went over a couple of days. It was, at all events,
brought to a conclusion within a very limited period.
But in the Committee of that House the case was
very different. His (Mr. Wakley's), information said,
that barristers in Committee were paid by the day,
or by the divisions on each clause. The senior
barrister commenced arguing the question on the
first, sub-division, and he commenced a kind of
circle, for there was neither beginning nor end to his
argument, but he continued during five hours
upon the first sub-division, and at the end
of that time it was intimated that the
Speaker was at prayers. On the following day one of
the Committee said, " Good God, when will there be
a termination to this affair I really think I shall
insure my life —he has not got through one of his
subdivisions—l am sure it will kill me." And
yet there were 183 clauses to go through with.
The junior barrister in a Committee frequently asked
for time, in consequence of his senior being absent,
and it was a perfectly notorious thing that seniors
frequently required Committees to be adjourned
from day to day, and witnesses to be detained,
at an enormous expense, until it was conve-
nient for them to be present. He (Mr.
Wakley) had been informed that a junior
barrister, very young, addressed a Committee some-
thing after the following effect:—" Mr. Chairman
and Gentlemen, the Bill I hold in my hand contains
183 clauses, and each clause contains a distinct subject,
and that subject, I find, on being sub-divided, will em-
brace 13 subdivisions." 183 clauses and 13 sub-
divisions in each ! When they applied common
sense to such a practice as this, he thought it would
be seen that it called for immediate remedy, in
every view in which the subject could be taken. There
was not an aspect in which it could be placed
before the mind that did not cry for a
remedy. Somebody was robbed. Members of that
House were robbed of their time, robbed of their
comfort, robbed of their health, and robbed of their
convenience ; while other parties were robbed of
their money, and might be ruined by these disgraceful
proceedings. He thanked the Noble Lord (Lord
Howick) for having introduced the subject, and he
trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would
endeavour to apply a remedy to the evil complained
of. He would only trouble the House with one more
remark, and that was, with respect to the
secret proceedings of the Committee of the Board of
Trade. The Noble Lord had alluded to the vast
amount of property that a as placed almost at
the disposal of that Board. The Noble Lord
also justly stated that every trial in which
property was involved was made public. They
must recollect that the' character of the Go-
vernment was implicated in these rumours. Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, he was sure, could not be
aware of what was said on this subject.—(Hear,
hear.) What objection could there be, if
the Committee of the Board of Trade
acted honestly and uprightly, throwing their doors
open, and letting the public see all that transpired.—
(Hear, hear.) If there were insuperable obstacles
to throwing their doors open—if it were absolutely ne-
cessary that the tribunal should be a secret tribunal, it
would be better that it should be at once abolished,
because its continuance, under such circumstances,
would not only inflict great injury upon individuals,
but would bring the character of the Government
itself into disgracee—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. Ee GLADSTONE said that the Hon.
Gentleman bad made many tbrcible remarkii on the

delay which took place in the conducting of the pri-
vate business before Committees of that House, end
he had also asked why the railway department of the
Board of Trade did not conduct their business with
open doors. He would give the lion. Gentleman ono
reason only why they did not do so. If the railway
department of the Board of Trade were to conduct
their business in public, the lion. Gentleman would
find that there would be the same complaint made of
the delays, the dilatoriness and the expense of con-
ducting investigations before that Committee that
he had so justly made of the manner in
which private business was conducted before
Committees of that House. He admitted the g
difficulty which existed, from the not coeiducting the
inquiries before the Board of Trade with open doors
but on the other hand, it should be considered that
these inquiries were not final; they were merely piC
liminary inquiries. On no other grounds could tile
constitution of that tribunal be defensible.—(Cheers.).
The real question was, if, on the whole, it was
expedient that some such preliminary inquiry shouio
be made. He confessed that be was of erg
nion that however doubtful might be their decision
.
in some instances, on the whole the exe4l-
ment had worked well. lie admitted that any
inquiry involving secrecy must be necessarily,ilq?_l-
feet, and therefore he fell back upon the deciara%_
which had been made last session, that these inquirt
t
before the Board of Trade did not profess
ed
give any definite result.—(Cheers) Woe
the House would look at the question, not upon
abstract principles, but with a view to practice! re'
11, 3.
sults. They were at present in a great cris
railway matters. A mass of proposals had beep
brought f sward. The whole speculative arti,°_dn
of the country seemed to be concentratrbe
or
upon railways, and although fault toighet the
found with some of the decisions eons
Committee of the Board of Trade and valid objecting
might be urged against those 'inquiries Mouse'!
conducted in public, yet he would ask the ire
what condition they would have found themsehresi);
no preliminary inquiry had taken Plece(i e4O
if, at the present moment, they bad
mßoainl hi?.
Com-
swawyithß,i,lults
any
yd
nelnuothteotagbuliedeofththeemHose °f esti-
the
gation of their respective merits, but n tviiinlgveton•
whole of them subject to those delays of which thie rict of
Gentleman had so justly complained in the co°"1:013,
th® private business of the House. The subject 'were
no doubt, undergo further investigation at a c such
time, and there could be no doubt that evir;r must
immense interests were involved certain partilesihoed
be disappointed. The lion. Gentleman ha° alluded
to certain rumours, but he would express autoe° oe the
opinion that up to the present mottl, favourwhole, the -public sentiment was I° depart'
of those decisions to which the railway cane.
ment of the Board of Trade had ,es,/ to
The arrangements had been made with a "behalf
candour and impartiality. lie must say' 0? vitae,
of the Railway Departme,nt of the Board bale
bean
that the utm .st possible precautions b,lre Gen'
made to insure secrecy. The HonouraL" ahroaa
tleman said that notions had gone reports
as to what the nature of these
e, Gentle:
would be. A very small part of the 11° that
man's sagacity would enable him to see that
mptio,
was no proof, nor even a very strong Pre'llrailvrel
that anything had been divulged from the the
lad on •
department. If their decisions were foulw , this
bete'',
facts of the case, those parties who came an 111
deartment for examination, would gte-- reeilts'
what transpired, some inkling as to the Pr°habledecisvns
and, therefore, in the same proportion as these
~on ooti:
were just and proper, in the very same Pr°Pcdltiertei°ecicl
cipations approaching to certainty would hey°nos I°,
The House might rest satisfied that eyefty of any
been taken in order to prevent the Phssibi I made on
premature disclosure. No communication waSembera
the subject by any person except one of the hi hoes VI
that department. Eren with respect to the 'depart"
which communications were put for the railwalliae ea"
ment of the Board of Trade, locks of a Perticold
ctarpuectiinonthwa'terweaaffixed, so that no intelligear,eueegh
moors had gone, abroad,
doahzyet
tusnt
ostahyinthagttbsathcvsotiotiroecond:
spired had in any degree tended t,° device
him that anything had been improper*: nt of t
With respect to his Noble Friend the Fresid;lo. ce his•
Board of Trade, that Noble Lord bad been 3et'hir;-,
own responsibility, but it never occurred t° lieth
Gladstone) that he was a holder of shares- esaieri
spect to the other three gentlemen that had, been
restece f
they certainly were connected with sad it s'e'eci
before he (Mr. Gladstone) came into office ; ttrether• t1;0
occurred to him to ask them the question %cud
held shares or not, though he certainly Was noeint,°.er
that they did. There was, however, on° aetelesibiele)e
for which he was responsible. lie was resr;eo
the appointment of Mr. O'Brien, a genders'° '001" e'
commission in her Majesty's service ; and 11'1',, spotileg.
that upon that gentleman's appointment, efslcri •
ously made the statement that he was a lwe'heceld eeaf
and it was therefore agreed upon that be s"As t 1) ith
diately dispose of them.—(Hear, hear.) nf
had fallen from the Hon. Nlember for Fzile. Pr- ebe
regard to the many evils attendant urin ,
si stem of management, the great exP,e,e-ese,lt een-
begged to assure him that it was very ‘1,1".;„-It *t loi)
a re:nedy. and that these causes of comPla„.l..--(jep
possible to remove by any sweeping me"s",,^t. of se;hey
He and those eith whom he bad the hon°l- re aS 1104
had applied V'emselves diligently to such Pll'ese t erect
conceived would be best calculated to "ere °bllob
causes of complaint piecemeal ; but theY sere
so inset
to approach them with great elution ; ei'l°ll,tise
to contend against in the shape of the conlittras,) oi
of contending local inter. sts.—(Hear'i es• of
year he and his colleagues proPose,„asieg ,ese,
experiment, to refer certain 1.31115, ih- that ps`r,ete'
points, to a Committee appointed for e been mate'
and they had found that experiment to hav,cre es°, •Jea
rially beneficial. But still the difficulties °sae art));ets
ingly great, great r than the Hon. Meinheri';o he more
&9 either of removing or checking- Is'cotll'l cP.ctlt
Gladstone) believed that the lion. Menjuic",, t
easily blanch the cheek of some fereiga
properly shert the speech of a prose' la"q" eeints'
ter.) In order to remedy these conflicting diffiesc
which he and his colleague had found so ite,tl..,ct rerP° the
they had been engaged in measures for tn,,,reyietediii%
measures which would tend materially to af.ue etts,e. his
-less of time, and very much lessen the exPe',,,sed /030
Private Bills. With respect to the Bills erei (es-
Noble Friend (Lord G. Somerset) he o.l.'tbe
le rug( rd
begged to express his entire concurrence "e'
Lions of the Noble Lord opposite ; and thdi,positrice
might rest assured that there was everY jest ~st
the part of her Majesty's Government to Poe eep
tope ,oni be
all parties. On the other hand, he eh eon la -
that every fair indulgence and considers d
shown to those engaged on those Bills tea s
~ pithy
found that all their energies had been dev9 hand
ing the vast mass of business in their uu i„ ti
something like manageable limits. co le par
Mr. DI VETT said he was disposed to Aii Ned to
view taken by the Right Hon. Gentlensan• had op? goo'
ties with whom he was acquainted, '‘h°teod
the Board of Trade, had (as we under.sisat boa cool
Gentleman) stated that' the secrets of thereof°
a ov rer
been strictly preserved. Ile thought thnst.lhce te4o;lo'
be one scheme better adapted than ,„e go, too
the evils so graphically described by ,hat
•
man, it was that of having a tribunal Vi_t. riot je:
the purpose of extunieing the merits of t_De'neeessat(tioss
Mr. ENTWISLE thought that no
.ao'n of p_casoin;
lay should take place in the presentatilliosed 5
At the same time, parties should be, v,,,,,csted
incur
far.
able time after the Board of Trade lieu rep
WOOld in
olt
them, to determine whether or not they
ore re' on
ther expenses.
Mto hirm. Itth.aYn Ot
oR
connect
nseaciti
improvernothinuguccatotouhatleidir bif,Bs;,
duct of the Board of Trade.
whatever way it was managed,
Board of Trade did ooze out. Ho knee,
crea tb t 'Abe sri„,
railway, the shares of which were, when t,zilie
kept at par on the morning of the the 6{; thetee'e,
was published. But two hours be )91 escefes
peered, the shares rose to a premium L, the`;',.cslinA,
this was a matter worthy of the attentr.%,sont 'sac cljeee
ment, as it had a tendency to raise tail Went Vivre
eer
towards the departments of the G(rekunowe. b volt
terminations were prematurely made
the
the
were communicated to the public, tf.
channel—that of the Government its e
15. (1.1
Leave was then given to bring in_t°, foe'r
ne
THE SHERIFFS' COURT SMA.leu
Mr. WALLACE
the motion of which he had given noal_eetie
_ouiligh r
the Sheriffs' Court Small Debt Act, before
before a
gLaAveNDno)tiecteCtThi.tt.he_slovoicthosep.so.eseefoP°ll:lo_
tribunal.—The
irbmuenda thatT thhee
motionsubj ec t been tarutlirawri.,
returfr.,
tii.o' re t.thie,
Lord
stituted by the Act 6 and 7 Witt
eteber, 184: 01, een'ter
year ending the 31st thy of Dse _aeon / 46,
13, • • ,
" Return of the Police SuperaMin c
- v ' 044. fell
toted under the Art 6 and f pec,eober,
eivia
the year ending the 31st day O. „epoes retc,ooda, bser,
" Return of the Names of all
sions or Gratuities from
ing the date in each case of th Cob 01,.1
rersetocp
either
ct°f _totteabeTOelieviltde°D.l,
Ith;
vice, the rank or employment
e° _„ ere`l IsYsels
cause and date of retirement,
eth
amount eeetter ore'
the date of retirement, and th
received wee
charg
roe tie
per annum, or otherwise, as an
above Funds, specifying on
which
which the
made."
nuation fund had been improperly sarrY
11,° 11
-
He knew of several instances_ in aanaacisb'o_ca
eat arida.
had retired without receiving that any which
..co
lieved that Major Warburton ?claw,. cei. jot
die
surgeon. Now, it was ins Poss Dbe rode 1.3 tato one
surgeon. 18
could give his approbation to tould 'but 1 Jane' bre°
funds had been applied.
to August, 1842, a per
case of an individual wbioodlihaeoefl
to bad ter, YetTu°'
months, but was then, ()wit% d ottac rto
resign. He was of perfectly goo the P°°,,i'd" tithes e
to
man, he was now past service,
...cp., oalie
The Government was insloortltiv 'harids,/t u,sras
put the funds into other.
/or -a -.0
that the
atkheeyt h
e werepe a
cjeultiloy dprt,tr: bc,our
eft es
sdot. hae. °cot,' Dotoro'f'r rccoi
tt
for the maintenance of en
setae °f itihe otberir;o
stabulary in the disturbed po fterte ivo so tee'
the country was perfectly dlsettri'ired oh tocogr the W 309,
thought the Government wais to account heel set eel
planation on the subject, an Oven Act had "
qua
in which the policy of their into the V'
He should not go more
at 10,,ta

scoT'

ne
°stet°
specntio'
)cer.,ber
lllb

urrwflo.
th°
for

con 16;
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