The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-07 00:00:00

TOE SpN2_LONPQN7 IVoItIsTING-1 F.FIBRITARY--7, 1R45.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 6

Their Lordships met at Twelve o'clock.
The Loan CHANCELLOR appeared at the table, tvtd
announced that her Majesty had appointed half-past
two to receive the Address, at Buckingham Palace.
At a Quarter before Two, the Lord Chancellor, ac-
cornpaided by the Marquis Camden and Lord Glenlyon,
the mover and i,econder of the Address, the Duke of St.
Albanr, the Earl .of. Shaftesbury, the Earl of Ellenbo-
rough, Earl Nelson, Lord Colchester, Lord HaWarden,
Lord Iledesdale, and other Noble Peers, proceeded with
the Address to the Palace.

the House, that he did not Aria from the production
of these paPers, because he thought their production
would be injurious to the Government, but he
did hope that if the feelings of the house
and of the country were favourable to the
principle of bringing these differences to an amicable
c( nclusion. and as each party had made concessions,
fur the sake of bringing the matter to that amicable
conclusion—if the House was satisfied with the course
‘‘hich the Government had taken, he trusted they
would be content with the production of the result of
those communications, and would not press for the pro-
duction of those portions of the correspondence which
were of an irritating character.—(Loud cheers.) Ile
felt obliged for the manner in which he had put the
question, and he trusted that, after the announcement
which had been made, the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not press for the production of the whole of the
papers.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the production
of the results of the correspondence wou!d be
satisfactory. It would be irregular to press for
papers, the production of which would be in-
jurious to the public service, and as to the produc-
tion of any irritating correspondence, he would not
press for it.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.
Mr. F. BARING, seeing the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the S-cretary of the Home Dliartment in his
place, would ask him if it was his intention to intro •
duce, during the present session, any measure for the
regulation of the Ecclesiastical Courts ?—(Cheers.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM had already given notice
of the introduction of several measures of very great
importanee during the present session ; but, from the
experience of the last two sessions—(A laugh)—
he despaired of being enabled to bring
in any measure for the regulation of Eccle-
siastical Courts, which would be satisfactory to
the present Parliament.—( sheers and laughter.) He
knew not what might be the intention of his Hon.
and Learned Friend the Advocate- General—(A
laugh)—but he himself had no intention of bringing
forward any measure or. the subject.—(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL put a question relative to the
charter of the College of Surgeons, which we could
not catch.

Hon. Friend the President of the BoArl of Trade,-and
he thought it would not be desirable to pogtpooe the
presentation of those reports that related to railways
that might be considered to belong to a particular
dais, not immediately bearing on other railway,
till the whole of the reports should be ready. His
Right Hon. Friend would he prepared in the course
of the next week to take one particular class of rail-
ways—say, the Kentish lines—and present, during the
week, the report on that class, and then proceed with
various other classes. The whole would thus be
divided into six.or seven familiei, if he might so call
them, the interests of which were neither competing
nor connected with other lines, and periodical
reports of them laid before the Ilouse. It
was never contemplated that the Board should
in any way fetter or control the dis-
cretion of Parliament. '['he intervention of the
Board of Trade was for a specific purpose—for afford-
information to the House, and that intervention
did not at all involve the Government in any neces-
sity of taking any other part in queAions connected
with railroads than it had hitherto done.

Col. SIBTHORP said it was pretty well known
to that House and t,) the country, that he was not
particularly partial to railroads. He rose now
to ask a question, in consequence of some reports
that had been circulated in reference to certain
members of a hat was called the Railroad Commis-
sion. The question was, if any of the four or live
gentlemen compsing the Con mission were connected,
directly or indirectly, with any of those railroads
which had been bronzht under their consideration ?
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said it had
never struck him that the vestion which had been
put by his Gallant Friend would have been asked.
He was not consulted with regard to the formation of
the Committee. All he knew from the communica-
tions which had been given was, that parties always
expressed themselves satisfied with the fairness and
intelligence with which the cases that came before the
Committee had been discussed.

Mr. WAKLEY sail that the question which had
been put by the Hon. and Gallant Colonel was not
answered by the Noble Lord. He di not expect
that it would, because the Noble Lord did not possess
the necessary information on the subject. It was
true, as stated by the Hon. and Gallant Colonel,
that reports were actively circulated in the
City to the prejudice of holders of rail-
way shares. It was stated generally and
openly by parties acquainted with railway sub-
jects that there must have been some pri •
vate information in the market or parties could,
not have made such enormous sums of money'
within a few weeks.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet opposite alluded to the circumstance-
how dangerous to the character of the Government it
would be, if such an opinion were circulated and
not contradicted or capable of being contra-
dicted. But the Right Hon. Gentleman wished
to have something like a tangible accusation. There
was great difficulty in obtaining such information, but
this was clear, that certain parties in the city who
were engaged in the sale of railway shares happened
to be right in their speculations, and were not wrong
in any one instance for several weeks ; and one gen-
tleman made 40,0001. by the sale of shares in a single
day, the shares having gone from a small premium to
a premium of 91. 10s. or 101. in the course of a few
hours. The Noble Lord the Member for Sunder-
land had opened the question last night in a
most able and practical speech. The Right Hon.
Gentleman paid that attention to it which it deserved,
and showed by his decision of adjourning the subject,
that he was himself influenced by prejudice, but was
open to receive impressions from either side of the
House. But the question then opened ought
not to be thus abruptly terminated. If the
only result to be obtained by the speech
of the Noble Lord, was an extension of the
time with regard to the introduction of Private Bills,
he would feel greatly disappointed as to the benefit
which he anticipated from the speech which the
Noble Lord had addressed to the Houss. If he (Mr.
Wakley) recollected rightly, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, when sitting on his (Mr. Wakley's) side of
the House, said that he had sat for 68 or 65 days on, he
belie% ed, the Stafford and tiugby Rail way Committee.
During the whole of that time was not one gigantic
company fighting another company, and beating jus-
tice and principle out of doors ?—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman h id stated that that iniquity
had been perpetrated yesterday ; the Right Hon.
Gentleman, in reply to the Noble Lord who had so
ably discussed the subject, stated that it was most
difficult to control barristers in their addresses
to Committees of that House. That was a most
extraordinary declara,ion for the first Minister of
England to make; a Minister, be it remembered, who
influenced Foreign Powers in no ordinary de-
gree.—(Hear, hear.) How extraordinary that he
should complain, in his place in Parliament,
of the difficulty of controlling barristers in their ad-
dresses to Committees of that House.—(Laughter.)
He did say that the conduct of Committees of that
House with regard to private Bills was not only inju-
rious to the best interests of the country, but disgraceful
to the cause of' justice and detrimental to the
character of that House.—(Hear, hear.) They could
not be ignorant of the practices carried on there.
Why it was well known that barristers of moderate
ability, during the last session, earned their six,
eight, and 12,0001. in the Committees of that
House. The difficulty of controlling barris-
ters ! Why, the Right Honourable Baronet,
were he applying his vigorous mind to find a remedy,
could do so in less than four hours, and it was only
for want of that application that they had not
the remedy before them. They need not expect
it from the law officers, for barristers had too much
respect for the law, to throw out insinuations
against barristers. The common sense of the people
of England found out the best mode of transacting
business—of accomplishing their objects. Supposing
the Right Hon. Baronet employed a physician, and
said, "As long as I am in good health I will give you
ten guineas a-day." Why, when did they think the
Right Hon. Baronet would be ill?—(Laughter.)
Supposing, again, that he got into a cab at the end of
Oxford-street, and said to the cabman—"
wish to see the Lord Mayor's Mansion-house ;
but I don't know, perhaps you don't, but
drive me about the streets till you find it, and I'll
give you a guinea a day."—(Continued laughter.)
He ,vould, I am assured, be a very long time
in finding it. What was the common rule with
barristers ? This. They got their fee for a
particular case, and how long did they think
the trial lasted. It was, indeed, a lengthened one if
it went over a couple of' days. It was, at all events,
brought to a conclusion within a very limited period.
But in the Committee of that House the case was
very different. His (Mr. Wakley's), information said,
that barristers in Committee were paid by the day,
or by the divisions on each clause. The senior
barrister commenced arguing the question on the
first sub-division, and he commenced a kind of
circle, for there was neither beginning nor end to his
argument, but he continued during five hours
upon the first sub-division, and at the end
of that time it was intimated that the
Speaker was at prayers. On the following day one of
the Committee said, " Good God, when will there bs
a termination to this affair! I really think I shall
insure my life—he has not got through one of his
subdivisions—l am sure it will kill me." And
yet there were 183 clauses to go through with.
The junior barrister in a Committee frequently asked
for time, in consequence of his senior being absent,
and it was a perfectly notorious thing that seniors
frequently required Committees to be adjourned
from day to day, and witnesses to be detained,
at an enormous expense, until it was conve-
nient for them to be present. lie (Mr.
Wakl'y) had been informed that a junior
barrister, very young, addressed a Committee some-
thing after the following effect:—" Mr. Chairman
and Gentlemen, the Bill I hold in my hand contains
183 clauses, and each clause contains a distinct subject,
and that subject, I find, on being sub-divided, will em-
brace 13 subdivisions." 183 clauses and 13 sub-
divisions in each ! When they applied common
sense to such a practice as this, he thought it would
be seen that it called for immediate remedy, in
every view in which the subject could be taken. There
was not an aspect in which it could be placed
before the mind that did not cry for a
remedy. Somebody R as robbed. Members of that
House were robbed of their time, robbed of their
comfort, robbed of their health, and robbed of their
convenience ; while other parties were robbed of
their money, and inight be ruined by these disgraceful
proceedings. He thanked the Noble Lord (Lord
Howick) for having introduced the subject, and he
trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would
endeavour to apply a remedy to the evil complained
of. He would only trouble the House with one more
remark, and that was, with respect to the
secret proceedings of the Committee of the Board of
Trade. The Noble Lord had alluded to the vast
amount of property that was placed almost at
the disposal of that Board. The Noble Lord
also justly stated that every trial in which
property was involved was made public. They
must recollect that the character of the Go-
vernment was implicated in these rumours. Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, he was sure, could not be
aware of what was said on this subject.—(Hear,
.
hear.) What objection could there be, it
the Trade
the Committee of the Board
open, and letting the public see all thatrabrle Obstacles
(Hear, hear.) If there were
.insupe
acted honestly and uprightly, throwing
reir ddo.o—rs
open—if it were absolutely to throwing their doors
should be a secret tribunal, it
ne-
cessary that the tribunal _
would be better that it shouldbe at once abolished,
because its continuance, under such circumstances,
t transpired.—
(Hear,
would not only inflict great injury upon individuals,
but would bring the character of the Government
itself' into disgrace.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE said that the Hon.
Gentleman had made many forcible remarks on the

delay which took place, in the conducting of the pri-
vate business before Committees of that House, and
he ha:l also asked why the railway department of the
Board of Trade did not conduct their business with
open doors. Ile would give the Hon. Gentleman one
reason only why they did not do so. If the railway
departim nt of the Board of Trade were to conduct
their business in public, the Hon. Gentleman would
find that there would he the same complaint made of
the delays, the dilatoriness and the expense of con-
ducting investigations before that Committee that
he had so justly made of the manner in
which private business was conducted before
Committees of that House. He admitted the great
difficulty which existed, from the not conducting the
inquiries before the Board of Trade with open doors ;
but on the other hand, it should be considered that
these inquiries were not final; they were merely pre-
liminary inquiries. On no other grounds could the
constitution of that tribunal be defensible.—(Cheers.)
The real question was, if, on the whole, it was not
• expedient that some such preliminary inquiry should
be made. He confessed that he was of opi-
nion that however doubtful might be their decisions
in some instances, on the whole the exp(-Ti-
meat had worked well. He admitted that any
I inquiry involving secrecy must be necessarily simper-
feet, and therefore he feli back upon the declaration
which had been made last session, that these inquiries
before the Board of Trade did not profess to
give any definite result.—(Cheers) He hoped
the House would look at the question, not upon
abstract principles, but with a view to practical re-
sults. They were at present in a great crisis in
railway matters. A mass of proposals had been
brought f ,rward. The whole speculative action
of the country &'emed to be concentrated
upon railways, and although fault might be
found with some of the decisions of the
Committee of the Board of Trade, and valid objections
might be urged against those inquiries not being
conducted in public, yet he would ask the House in
what condition they would have found themselves, if
no preliminary inquiry had taken place, but
if, at the present moment, they had had 240
Railway Bills laid en the table of the house of Com-
mons without any clue to guide them in the investi-
gation of their respective merits, but leaving the
whole of them subject to those delays of which the Hon.
Gentleman had so justly complained in the conduct of
the private business of the House. The subject would,
no doubt, undergo further investigation at a future
time, and there could be no doubt that where such
immense interests were involved certain parties must
be.disappointed. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded
to certain rumours, but he would express a confident
opinion that up to the present moment, on the
whole, the public sentiment was in favour
of those decisions to which the railway depart-
ment of the Board of Trade had come.
The arrangements had been made with a view to
candour and impartiality. He must say, on behalf
of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade,
that the utm st possible precautions had been
made to insure secrecy. The Honourable Gen-
tleman said that notions had gone abroad
as to what the nature of these repo:ts
would be. A very small part of the lion. Gentle-
man's sagacity would enable him to see that that
was no proof, nor even a very strong presumption,
that anything had been divulged from the railway
department. If their decisions were founded on the
facts of the case, those parties who came before this
department for examination, would easily gl,an from
what transpired, some inkling as to the probable results,
and, therefore, in the same proportion as these decisions
were just and proper, in the very same proportion anti-
cipations approaching to certainty would be entertained.
The House might rest satisfied that every pains had
been taken in ord-r to prevent the possibility of any
premature disclosure. No communication was made on
the subject by any person except one of the members of
that department. Even with respect to the boxes in
which communications were put for the railway depart-
ment of the Board of Trade, locks of a peculiar con-
struction were affixed, so that no intelligence could es-
cape in that way, and he must say that although ru-
mours had gone abroad, yet nothing that had tran-
spired had in any degree tende I to convince
him that anything had been improperly divulged.
With respect to his Noble Friend the President of the
Board of Trade, that Noble Lord had been acting on his
own responsibilitr, but it never occurred to him (Mr.
Gladstone) that he was a holder of shares. With re-
spect
to the other three gentlemen that had been named,
' they certainly were connected with railway matters
before he (Mr. Gladstone) came into office ; and it never
occurred to him to ask them the question whether they
held shares or not, though he certainly was of opinion
that they did. There was, however, one appointment
for which he was responsible. He was responsible for
the appointment of Mr. O'Brien, a gentleman who held a
commission in her Majesty's service ; and he should say
that upon that gentleman's appointment he spontane-
ously trade the statement that he was a holder of shares,
and it was therefore agreed upon that he should imme
diately dispose of' them.—(Hear, hear.) As to what
had fallen from the Hon. Member for Finsbury, with
regard to the many evils attendant upon the present
system of management, the great expense, &c., he
begged to assure him that it was very difficult to apply
a remedy, and that those causes of complaint it wns Im-
possible to remove by any sweeping measure.—(Hear.)
He and those with whom he had the honour of acting,
had applied themselves diligently to such plans as they
conceived would be best calculated to remove those
causes of complaint piecemeal ; but they were obliged
to approach them with great caution ; they had so much
to contend against in the shape of the continualindousies
of contending local interests.—(Hear, hear.) Last
year he and his colleagues proposed, by way of
experiment, to refer certain Bills, involving these
points, to a Committee appointed for that purpose.
and they had found that experiment to have been mate-
rially beneficial. But still the difficulties were exceed-
ingly great, greater than the Hon. Member had any idea
of, either of removing, or checking. Indeed he (Mr.
Gladstone) believed that the Hon. Member could more
easily blanch the cheek of some foreign despot than cut
properly short the speech of a prosy lawyer.—(Laugh-
ter.) In order to remedy these conflicting points, with
which he and his colleague had found so much difficulty,
they had been engaged in measures for that purpose
measures which would tend materially to abbreviate the
loss of time, and very much lessen the expense attending
Private Bills. With respect to the Bills proposed by his
Noble Friend (Lord G. Somerset) he (Mr. Gladstone)
begged to express his entire concurrence in the sugges.
tions of the Noble Lord opposite ; and the Noble Lord
might rest assured that there was every disposition on
the part of her Majesty's Government to do justice to
all parties. On the other hand, he did hope and expect
that every fair indulgence and consideration would be
shown to those engaged on those Bills, and it would be
found that all their energies had been devoted to bring-
ing the vast mass of business in their hands within
something like manageable limits.

Mr. DiVETT said he was disposed to concur in the
view taken by the Right lion. Gentleman. All the par-
ties with whom he was acquainted, s‘ho had applied to
the Board of Trade, had (as we understood the lion.
Gentleman) stated that the secrets of that board had
been strictly preserved. lie thought that if there could
be one scheme better adapted than another to obviate
the evils so graphically described by the lion. Gentle-
man, it was that of having a tribunal of that nature for
the purpose of examiming the merits of the rival projects.
Mr. ENTwishE thought that no unnecessary de-
lay should take place in the presentation of petitions.
At the same time, parties should be allowed a reason-
able time after the Board of Trade had reported against
them, to determine whether or not they would incur fur-
ther expenses.
Mr. R. YORKE sail, nothing could be more revolting
to him than to connect improver motives with the con-
duct of the Board of Trade. But the fact was, t!-At, in
whatever way it was managed, the intentions of the
Board of Trade did ooze out. lie knew the case of one
railway, the shares of which were, with great difficulty,
kept at par on the morning of the day when the report
was published. But two hours before the Gazate ap-
peared, the shares rose to a premium of 91. Ile thought
this was a matter worthy of the attention of the Govern-
ment, as it had a tendency to raise unpleasant feelings
towards the departments of the Government whose de-
terminations were prematurely made known, before they
were communicated to the public through the proper
channel—that of the Government itself.

• Leave was then given to bring in the Bills.
TIIE SHERIFFS' COURT SMALL DEBT (SCOT-
LAND) ACT.

Mr. WALLACE gave notice that he would postpone
the motion of which he had given notice, with respect to
the Sheriffs' Court Small Debt Act, as he had been in-
formed that the subject had been taken before a higher
tribunal.—The motion was then withdrawn.

Lord CLEMENTS moved for the following returns:—
" Return of the Police Reward Fund in Ireland, con-
stituted by the Act 6 and 7 Will. IV, c. 13, s. 49, for the
year ending the 31st day of December, 1844."
" Return of the Police Superannuation Fund, consti-
tuted under the Act 6 and 7 Will. IV, c. 13, s. 46, for
the year ending the 31st day of December, 1844."
" Return of the Names of all Persons receiving ren-
sions or Gratuities from either of the above Fundse i
show-
ing the date in each case of the commencen2fi!t
of r
vice, the rank or employment of each ncyvidual, the
t
epe a
hrson
cause and date of retirement, the age of each
the date of retirement, and the amount received
eltheceivder 3
of b}' each
the
per annum, or otherwise, as received i
above Funds, specifying on which Fund the charge is
made."
He knew of several instances in which the superan-
nuation fund had been improperly applied, and he be-
lieved that Major Warburton and Sir Thomas Osborne
had retired without receiving any certificate from a
surgeon. Now, it was impossible that any individual
could give his approbation to the mode in which the
funds had been applied. He would but instance one
case of an individual who had served from June, 1831,
to August, 1842, a period of eleven years and three
months, but was then, owing to bad health, obliged to
resign. He was of perfectly good character, yet, poor et,
man, he was now past service, in the poor-houseof Tuam.
The Government was imperatively calledon either to
put the funds into other hands, or to see
that they were justly distributed. It was unjust
to make the peaceable part of the country ply
for the maintenance of an increased force of con-
stabulary in the dieurbed portions of it. One part of
the country was perfectly distinct from the other. He
thought the Government was called on to give some ex-
planation on the subject, and to account for the manner
In which the policy of their own Act had been set aside.
He should not go more at length into the question now,