The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-04 00:00:00

FACTORIES BILL.

On the motion that the Order of the Day for the
house resolving itself into Committee on the Factories
Bill, be read,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to call the attention of the
House to the Belfast petition, but he was interrupted by
The SPEAKER, who said that the Hon. Member was
out of order, inasmuch, as the question had not yet
been put.
Mr. ROEBUCK rose amidst loud cries of " Order,"
but at length gave way.
The question that the Order of the Day be read was
then put, and agreed to. .
Sir J. GRAHAM moved that the Speaker do leave
the chair.

Lord ASHLEY presented several petitions in favour
of the ten hours' clause.

Mr. ALDAM presented a petition from persons em-
ployed in the woollen mills at Leeds, against the half-
time clause.

Mte ROEBUCK then rose for the purpose of moving—
" That it is the opinion of this House that no interference
with the power of adult labourers in factories, to
make contracts respecting the hours for which they
shall be employed, be sanctioned by this House."
He believed that he Ives perfectly in order in moving
this resolution before the House went into Committee
on the Bill. It had been objected to him that he might
have moved the resolution in Committee, but, in his
opinion, great advantage would be derived from
moving it as a resolution of the House. It appeared
to him (Mr. Roebuck) that the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite was alternating between various
practices—that at one time the doctrines of non-inter-
ference with labour prevailed with him, and at another
time the opposite doctrine. He was anxious to learn
from the Right Hon. Gentleman the principles upon
which his conduct was governed. He, therefore, should
first apply himself to the general principle which
ought to prevail in order to deprive the Right
Honourable Gentleman of the power of apply-
ing his own principles in any way that he liked.
He meant to throw upon the Right Honourable
Gentleman the onus of showing why he took from the
working classes the power of contracting for themselves;
and then be should address himself to the Noble Lord
opposite, and throw upon him. the onus of proving the
advantage he proposed to confer on the working
classes by legislation. He should grapple with two ante-
eonists who were opposed to each other ; but he wished
first so to place them, as that they should not be. able
to draw from an armoury which did not legitimately belong
to them. But, before all, he wished to relieve himself from
the odium which was cast upon him, and others who
thought with him. He meant the charge of inhumanity
—(hear, hear)—of disregard for the people—of un-
natural selfishness—nay, of celd-bloodedness, which had
been charged upon them. For himself he could say he
had a sincere sympathy for the working classes, and so
sincere was it that it could only be satisfied by seeing
them vested with the power of governing themselves.
The professing friends of the working classes would not
agree in this. He (Mr. Roebuck) said to those
professing friends give them the power to speak
for themselves—give them the power to legislate
for themselves in this House. When they gave to the
working classes that power—when .he found those who
professed themselves so exceedingly anxious: for. the
rights of the people voting for their proper representa-
tion in that House, then he would believe-that they had
some real sympathy for their sufferings. Now to
his propositions. He (Mr. Roebuck) took it as a
general rule that the labouring man had the
greatest interest in forming' 'contract for himself.
The next proposition was, that the working man had
the best knowledge of his own circumstances, and that
no general rule could be- framed so well calculated to
affect his interest as his own strongly inclined views,
his wants, and necessities. The general rule, therefore,
must be taken to be, that they could not interfere with
private interests on this subj-ct—that the parties them-
selves were the best calculated to make their own
contracts. Those who differed from this principle
and who advocated interference, must show the grounds
for that interference ; the onus lay upon them to do so.
Now, what right had they to interfere with them? First,
he hell that the parties having strong interest and pecu-
liar knowledge, it was incumbent for the party inter-
fering to show that they had greater knowledge ; that
they had greater interest, or that they had a greater
power of judging. But ti Noble Lord said there was a pe-
culiar (kiss t.ef men in this country called " factory men,"
that there were peculiar things connected with their con-
dition that called for the interference of the Legislature,
and that those peculiarities were overwork and under-
pay. Now, upon that the Noble Lord had collected a
great mass of evidence which he had flung upon the
table of the House, staling that that evi :mice showed
great immorality and great misery. Such were the
Noble Lord's premises, bet the next step that the Noble
Lord took was a most remarkeble one—he stated that great
miseryexisted from overwork and underpay, and he
stated the person that did not suppo:t him in that
proposition was an enemy to the working classes, to
humanity, and to all the best feelings of the human,
heart, and that as such he ought to be branded as the
enemy of his kind. Nov, between the' Noble Lord's
premises and his conclusions, there was in hi* (bir. Roe-
buck's) opinion no connection whatever. Having esta-
blished that an evil existed, he ought to have gone on
to show that the proposition which he had brought
forward was a remedy for that evil.—(Hear, hear.)
However anxious he might he to ameliorate the distress,
he might be a bad, he might be an ignoeant physi-
cian, and what he proposed, instead of relieving
might increase th misery he described, and
so far from ameliorating a single misfortune,
might bring a curse upon those for whom
he legislated. This, he thought, described the position
of the Noble Lord. lle had bet-in misled by his sym-
pathies, anti hp peme to that House to show that great
misery existed in a particular class of labourers. Now
it was very easy for the ranting demagogue to go,
a sort of wandering instrument, routia the country,
for the dissemination of Iguoilanp and ; that
was a very cite), thing to 40 ; it was assumed by the
,a •
moot ye gee an the most ignorant of mankind ; that was
an object easy of attainment, but what the House required
was something beyond that ignorance—something beyond
that blustering weakness, something beyond that coward
following out of opinions which in that House dared rot
be maintained. That was easy it,,et th4t House
was tha tilEci.,lo\ll4 tint only prove a.
"01 evils, hilt show also
or their remedy ; that
that 'louse.

efficiency

...ey should not accuse
, legislation, of being the cause of
uiose evils which arose out of the circumstances of our
condition as human beings ; that they should not throw,
on any class in this country, the odium arising from

that which was the mere nece:sity of our na'ure. ere.
had said that that class of mind, which thus sought
to obtain notoriety, was among the lowest and
most vulgar which could deprave humanity ;
which, though in a time of excitement might meet
with some transient favour from that House would, P°,
hoped, when the House came to its right senses, be, as it
ought to be, declared a calumny and a falsehood• The
first step the Noble Lord had taken was to show that the
factory labourer was in a pectiliar position—that he was
in a situation which distinguished him from all others-e
that there was that in the peculiar incidents of,
his history which enabled a Legislative body
to interfere in his behalf. Now, they wanted to lin°w
what were the peculiar characteristics of the factory ht"
bourer. First, he found that the factory labourer WO
quite as well fed, to say the least of it, as any other lee
bourer in the community, and he should be enabled to
show that the factdry labourer Was better fed than tole
other. lie then found that the factory labourer was not
subjected to worse toil than other classes of the comma'
nity, and he would beg the House to remark that it 105
not enough to get an undigested mass of evidenceel•
this point, for it' he chose to turn the Noble Lords
weapons against himself, he could draw from it ee
mass of proofs of the existence of misery of every,'
kind among the labourers of this country.—(ffea"
Now he would take one in this town. The one be WO
about to mention might excite the merriment of
the
House ; but he mentioned it because he belie"
ed
they were a more sorely taxed class of labourer:
than any in the community —he meant th
women-of-all-work in the city of London.--(lle.e,ri;
hear. Let them compare their condition
that of the factory girls, and the condition of the latter
would be found a paradise compared with that of the
former.—(Hear, hear.) Let them compare the ink.
who worked in factories with the men who were engsP
in agriculture.—(Hear, hear.) He found that thosl
who worked in factories were covered and sbelters.
from all the inclemency of the seasons; he found that
they had good pay, and that they were far happier than
-the agriculturists, who were exposed to cold, and etei,
and frost; and to have bad pay, bad clothing, and 13°_d
lodging.—(flear, hear.) The factory workers Its_
better pay, less toil, better clothing, and better,
lodging. And what was there to distill;
guish factory men in such a way as ,to recleell`r
the interference of the Legislature in their behaltt
(Hear, hear.) He found two circumstances to distill' ,
guish his position. Those who worked in factories were'
congregated into masses which invited investigation"
which insured inspection—which brought their condition,
continually before the public.—(Hear, hear.) They
did not live, like the agriculturists, far distant
trom the gaze of local superintendents, wi,
t-
might bring their misery and toil before the world, 11-
could bring down indignation upon the masters, all,.
make their agricultural tyrants tremble. Now such el;
not the condition of the factory workmen. Their collar
tion was to be congregated in multitudes, which Multi.
tudes made of themselves a force which invited atte.l..l;
tion, from the very fact of their being congregate".
into masses, which covered them with an mgis Pr();
tection from the mere fact of being thus exhibited to tht
public gaze.—(Hear, hear.) 'That he found was the firs(
characteristic of their condition, and one consequenee:teu.
that condition was the present meddling 1,4 r
their position.—(Loud cheers.) The factory labour%
worked in conjunction with machinery, which being
into fair ordinary English meant this, that the iii
chinery had all the hard work, and that the labottre,
had that which required mental labour.—(Hear, hear./
It would not do for the Noble Lord and Gentlemen ec
posite to say that as machinery was improved, the labout-
of the operative was increased. He (Mr. Roebuck)
denied that proposition. In every process, as machinery:
advanced, its peculiarity was absolutely to imitate too:
human mind—that it discharged offices which, a priori, two
centuries ago, if any one anticipated, he would We
been described as a dreamer. It relieved the labour of
the operative, and reduced him, in reality, ato be, Mere'
superintendent of a certain line of superhuman r•
He denied that such improvements in machinery
creased the labour of those who superintended that
machinery. He put forward that proposition withota
himself having the slightest doubt of its accuroli
He invited every man who knew or who wish
to know anything about the matter, to b!",i,
it to the utmost ; and he asserted this, that every P",
vance and improvement in machinery had lessened
human labour—had lessened it in time and in intett',
sity. Now, he found that the peculiarities attachg
to the factory men were two. One, that
were congregated in masses; the other, that they
in conjunction with machinery. He could find no otheroe,
lend if the general rule were accurate, that they Who
had the most interest, and the greatest knowledge et,
judge of their own affairs, ought to make a contrre, '
for themselves, he asked the Noble Lord opposite'
how it came that those two elements, having ele/i
tered into the composition of this complicated
case, should render it a ground for him to in-
terfere in their case, when he did not interfere,
in the case of the agricultural labourer? There was one
worhe2,
thing he wanted to clear up. It would not do to coinlf
down there with exaggerated descriptions of misery:
deformity, of want, and of suffering. He (Mr. fteli
buck) denied them all.—(" Hear, hear," and " 07' e
" Oh," said the Honourable Member for Portl',74
(Mr. M. Mimes). He (Mr. Roebuck) wanted
to know if that Hon. Gentleman had ever investigoto,
the case. It was very easy to make propositions e:015
jingling sounds and jingling syllables, but he (Mr.e
wanted knowledge before he legislated.—(Rear, heolo;'
That being the condition of the people Jog
whom they were about to legislate, he would e
trouble the House with a mass of evidence. Indeed, b
ought to apologise to the House for having already ad)
dressed them at such length upon the matter.-0-101
He stated it broadly, and he called upon the 15T0",:3-
Lord to deny it, that the Factory Commissioners of 18'
declared that the condition of the factor labouring
population of this country was superior to any other
labouring population.—(Bear, hear.) He knew Chef
could pick out individual cases here and there of suffering, and far was it from him to speak of therfi 70;
the slightest degree with anything like le/itici
He felt for the misery of the labourer in the factory. °no
for the misery of the agricultural labourer, and heeew°,,eie
by and bye argue that question with the P4°'')
Lord and those who supported him.—(Dear.)
What he said, however, was this. It was very east
to bring forward individual instances of deformity, ,
they must make out that it was the consequence a l'eh"
system, and besides making out that it was the 0115;
quence of the system, they must know that by legislarrer
enactments they could relieve it. Unless they establisuet
these two propositions they did nothing. Now, II had "
the Factory Commissioners, in 1833, declared
distineel
and clearly that the labourers of the manufacturing P°t
pulation were better off in every particular than
other class of the labouring population of this Country
They were better off in every particular. As lie :ea
already slid, they were better paid, better lodgedoLie
better fled And now he came to that which he locse
would be treated as the ad captandum argument en t7OO
occasion. The Noble Lord said, " What ! have) (be
so little regard for a woman, as to wish that "it
should be taken from those labours which are her
liar sphere, which make her the solace of our ti,Y-0,
which make her the instrument of oar early edueealfe-el -
and in fact prove her and form her to be the frier
man ? Are you willing to destroy her 11 --ea
power, to make her a machine, to unfit her to rear re-
make her race ? Ia fact, are you willing 01,61
grade the human race by making their m0t,..-es
miserable beings ?" That was the, kind of °Teas •
meat which was used. Now, he would ask, first, echo
the labouring woman in the factory worse off than ;of
ihveoru hsl
situation
ti
ifo shen a
swearne
agricultural
tad
wo
better
eect i
hat arnml
alltabhsntlthati3he.s3et, her so
ituation
peculiareer
aes
iuund tt
heldtani
that
evidence
he.
It
in-door work—it was warm (so far it was one,
fortable), and all that was required of her we,s,,,T:of
ui
understand
eualuetniarb:hracabasoeesitoduaufrner investigatedeidifnntia°ngrr
labourer,y ? ub ele g t
tinuous attention. It was the peculiar characterts**ol-
-
e
ry
iii
woman, that she could give this continuous attention' to,
t whwoman bhyefi.astctet rot
11-1
not suffer in her health ; while man, when boon hich
give continuous attention to in-door labour, Jar-
did not task his intellect, usually did suffer in 'le:idle'
Every medical person who had examined into the state
labourers in the factory districts had declared without oneboor
ception that the women in the factories bore the factory
the best—that it was better suited to their habits, and t°; s of
physical and psychological conditions than any other areetbe/
labour, that it was anything but hard labour, and that atiral
were in a far better state for the maintenance and prol'l;nted
of their species than the agricultural labourers. ne":
that part of the argument answered by the Noble r- nrcl. ;
( Hear, hear.) Then as to the men. Were the men wil% bast
in any way than the labourers in any other business ? ''iroebee
shown that they were better paid, better fed, better e'
than the agricultural labourer. Now he asked if therlittio°
anything peculiar in their condition with respect to the ?:tiv•
which they bore to their masters, which rendered, leg''';had
interference necessary. It had been said that the 10.15tnet-over
power over his manufacturing labourers, w' ' h
he his agricultural labourers.—( Hear ' den' of
( Hear.) The same incidents he es
) That ,
egulated the rate °` ;„ e/e'
y.
persons employed in fay!
.ories that regulated them 3-0
other case ; and
y acted with more certainty and e'etiell tree
pidity wheer:;:er a multitude of persons were congre,g: whet"'
paler '
as they were in the manuf • districts to- atv-
acturingthe to
Lney were congregated and separated as they were "'forced to
cultural districts. In the latter case each man was lions
act for himself. There were never any. conabinte woe;
the country—there were always combinations in Pthst ,th
facturing districts.—( Hear. hear.) This showen•
agricultural labourer was in a worse conditin
are
the labourer in the factory. The agriculture la oldb
dare not combine.—( Hear.) That man who slow' 30 korti
his hand for a combination would be crushed. neYriois, ap
that combinations existed in the manufacturing 013,1 "of leg':
so far the manufacturing labourer stood less in nee They tee
lative assistance than the agricultural labourer'; ,on of l';„
quired no assistance. So much for the concht jofinitel
labourer in the manufacturing districts, which wasf,riculteri:
superior to the condition of the labourer in the i'hle L°ll4
he , h
districts. He now came to the proposition of the Lord Lora
Let it be for one moment allowed that the Noble, factory
.t"e ore
made out his case—that he had established that, and mots
labourers were worse fed, worse paid, worse clotheut.....lot them
kingdom lien,.
miserable than any other labourers in the . t propoP Log
throw the Noble Lord's statement into a disonres.
_Joe, te
and see what could be drawn from it. In the 6, Kid, New
were over-worked ; in the second, they were on_ nef.7,-,,,5s ctor
the whole panacea for this overwork and uri.derriut theo'
fining the hours of labour to ten hours a eel' the:
suppose the hours of labour to be thus liar labourer
the le gee
see what would be the condition of woo f
daY 0
The limiting of the hours of work to ,'en hours per go to "bathis
rid of %ha question of over." ;he vrou'd the. broughto ,d
under-pay. . The I.7iourer came forward, afdprice e(
labour ;:::to the market, offering it at the hese i
That brought ' °Loa
get for it from the manufacturer.
__ that of he had
tha, le
Roebuck) to the main question, which was
observe, -0 the wesi
here he must t
facturing capitalists. And .
of aniipatil but look
seen in that House a curious feeling
If they w°°,`",i,structioil
race of manufacturing capitalists.
the ahYs° d over.
• an
abroad, and ask who lifted them from r vith. _no*
which was yawning for them--who iNgehackt)
is (11 r.
came Napoleon kluopaparte..l 1