The Sun.
London, England, 1819-07-13 00:00:00

FINANCIAL RESOLUTIONS.

• Sir It l'Att tsiELL said, that in MOVing the Or-
der of the Day for the adjourned debate on the
Finance Resolutions, he •did not think it neces-
saty to enter into a long detail of the financial
staie of the country. At the beginniog of the
Session considerable hopes•had been held out of
the retrenchments of the public expenditure,
_which, however, had not been sufficiently ful-
filled. The Resolutions which he now intended
to move, pointed out various branches on Which
reductions might be made. One of the most im-
pot tant of these was the expence of the collection
of the Revenue. It it was redneed from 7 per
cent. to 5 per cent., 1,200001. would he an-
nually saved to the public. He begged, however,
to say, that there were some of the Resolutions
es to which he could not be quite sure that he
AS AS accurate. In staring the number of sea•
men, he had made it 19,000, instead of
20,000. The statement as to the War Depart-
ment was also erroneous. But he did not think
that even when the mistakes wet e corrected the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had much left to
~oast of ; for, in the war department, the expen-
, tore in this, the fourth year of peace, was 40001.
'::.re than in the third year of war. The state of
the finances required every possible retrenchment,
?Yid it must be a retrenchment on a new princi-
na,tl attended with very considerable innova-
tions. For, on general principles, many retrench-
ments were practirahle, which on the present sys.
tent could not take pl ace. This was particularly
true with re•pert to the mode of filling up the in.
fe, for offices in the revenue. At present he did
not think it necessary to go into the subject more
ni'nutely. He concluded by moving. the order of
the day for reiuming the adjourned debate on the
Finance Itesnlutions.
_ _

Mr. LUNG said, as the lion. Baronet had not
gone very fully into the subject, he (Mr. Long)
was relieved from the necessity of going iuto any
deep details. He did not accuse the. Hon. Barn.
net of intentionally mis-stating any thing ; but
with respect to the accuracy of the lion. Baro-
net's statements, he must say that the returns
which the Hon. Baronet ought to have referred to
Were on the table of the House; and had been
published in every Newspaper in the kingdom.—
As to what the Honourable Baronet had said of
the expences of collecting the Revenue, it was to
be considered, in comparing the. Customs and
Excise, that one of these produCed a much
greater revenue than the other. The Honour-
able Baronet, in his Resolutions, gave a scale
to show that the expense of collecting' the
Customs Duties had of late years increased ;
but it so happened, that the difference of ex-
Pence which appeared in the Honourable Ba-
ronet's scale was occasioned by the abolition
of fees. One of the Resolutions relative to
auditing the Public Accounts stated, that
atifficieilt.hvn,,fit had not been derived from the
Act of 1806, which regulated the auditing of ac-
counts. 8,,t if the Hon. Baronet's plan was fol-
lowed up; instead of a saving, be verily belieVed
it would occasion a very considerable additional.
expenee, As 'to the Resolution respecting the
Paymaster-General's Department, if this were the
proper time,/he could easily show that great im-
provements had been made in the mode of keep-
ing the accounts. When the immense increase
of the business of the Pay OfficC since 17911 was
considered, it must he thought that 4,0001. a year
was a very insignificant increase in the expenses
in that Department. But he begged to be dis-
tinctly underst nod not to say that lie thought no
saving could be made in collecting the Revenue.
Lord PALMERSTON the alteration
tirilitl was intended with respect to half•pay.—
The oath for half-pay'officers was to be framed so
as to state that the officer did not hold any mili-
tary or civil office tinder Government, except those
in the Colonies, which might now be held by half-
Pay officers. As to the Resolutions of the• Hon.
Baronet, lie was sorry, he had not brought up a
list of his errata to be printed. At the same time
lie was sure the Honourable Baronet's mistakes
were quite unintentional. He could only admit
the Honourable Baronet's claims to knowledge
on fioancial subjects ; he could only admit them
with vet y considerable limitations, for he could
rot think that any one who, in such a set of Re•
solutions, could fall into so many mistakes, could
not be well qualified for giving the House much
useful -assistance in such matters. As to what.
was stated in them about the Commander-in-
Chief comparing the expences of that office now
with what they had been in 1793, it was to he
observed, that in the latter year there was no such
office a's that of Commander-in-Chief. The per-
eon who, in 1793, filled the office which most
newly corresponded with the office of Commander•
in-Chief, was Lord Amherst, bat his command did
not extend to all the troops on foreign stations,
to that no fair comparison could be made of the
espenecs of Lord Amherst's department in 1793
with that of Commander-in-Chief at present.—

. .
But there Was a more important` mistake . OW)
this..: It comparing the expenees of the War De-
partment now, with
.what 'they. 'hail been. in
1796, theee was in the Resolntions. of the Hon.
Baronet to the amount rifno lest thin 49,0001'.L--
• (Hear, hear !)—ln stating the expenees of that
department in 1796, he omitted, first, the whole
sum for contingencies ; 2,1, the foreign troops ;
and 3d, the fees, which in all amounted to 49,0001,
making the 'whole expences of the departments
57,0001. instead of 8,0001. as stated by the Hon.
Baronet in his resolutions ; as to the expences of
the e3tablishment for arrear accounts, it had been
the means of recovering annually awns much ex-
ceeding its' expenees. The coosoliations which
the resolutions proposed in the department of mi-
litary accounts would occasion a very heavy ex-
pellee, and create great confusion.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, notwithstanding the cen-
sures which had been cast upon the Resolutions
of the Hon. Baronet, the House and the Country
were very much obliged to him for having be-
stowed his attention on this important subject.—
As to the censures, it was a matter of form for
the Treasury Bench to be up in arms against any
proposal for economy. 13,it notwithstanding all
the criticisms on the little details, the main polio
had not been grappled' with—nothing hail been
said as to the extravavince in the collection of
the revenue which had been set forth. lie ridi-
ctiled the netts,' criticisms which his lion. Friend's
resolutions had undergone froM the Noble Lord
(Palmerston). While the Geotlemeo on the
opposite side talked of saving hundreds, Ice (Mr.
Calcraft) and 'his friends talked of their capa-
bility of saving millions. Talk of economy 1—
'The office of Commander-in-Chief did not ex-
ceed an expenditure 'of 20001. a year formerly ;
now it exceeds 14,0001. There was in fact an
excess of expenditure in all the departments at
Government ; but those in power were deter-
mined to fly in the face of econotny. When you
talk of an 'excess of expenditure, those in pow, r
exclaim—'! Look at the business we do !" But
1 say—Look at the impoverished state of tile
country—look at the finance. In giving the
vote which he was now about to give, he was
discharging the dictates of his conscience. The
country Was highly indebted to the conduct of his
Hon. Friend for the•propositions now submitted
to the House. Dm the Gentlemen on the other
side said—" Have we not given you Resolu-
tions ?" He, for one, did not like the paper kite,
or paper system, of the Right Hon. Chancellor of
the Exchequer ! While they were looking at it
with every degree of attention, his tax-gatherers
were emptying their pockets !—(Hear, hear !)
While retrenchment was pretended, no ptinciple
of sincerity.was adopted so as to produce the de-
sired effect. On the Ministers there ought to be
no reliance. But he hoped they would endeavour
to do sonic:thing during the recess to satisfy the
people.
Sir T. B. MARTIN made an able defence of the
management of the Naval Department. He en-
tered into a minute detail, advancing calculations
for the different periods alluded to by the Resolu-
tions of the Hon. Mover. The increase of the
expenditure had arisen from the introduction of
new ditties. The Hors. Member then went into
a detail of the business of the various offices in
several departments of the Nary. One branch of
the new duties was a regular correspondence with
every connexion of the particular department
throughout the kingdoth. The improvements in
the different offices of the Treasm y and Navy Pay
Offices had beets very beneficial to the community
at large. 'The allotnient system also deserved the
thanks of the House and the Public. The tiOn.
Birnnet then went into the calculations, proving
that the cause of the apparent rise of expenditure
Was in consequence of the- new plan for the esta-
hlisliment, by appropriating fixed and limited
itilaries, instead of nominal salaries, as tor-
Merly. Every 'persOn's name and salary now
employed in the various dock-yardt were
brought forward in the estimates for the concur ;
Consequently the charges appeared considerably
increased. But it) fact there was uo excess of
expenditure, but ri groat saving to the public
by the new plan. All this had' arisen front the
recommendation of thd House, thinking that
.
fixed safaries would be more beneficial to the
public than the usual" honlinal -ones, beSides die'
feet,
.Bte. Now all fees Were ent off, 'snit! the
person who 'acted for the rublic llad-nothing but
his limited salary. lii' the deParemeut of the
Quartermen, who generally made the return of the
work done by different men throughout !he various
Crock-yards, there had been a great saving. For-
merly there bad not Only been thousands, but
hundreds of thousands, in the course of a year ex-
pended, now saved by die new plan, namely, the
limited salary. Its the novelties of retoim, a
timber-office had been' recommended as a plan of
economy ; also la measurer's office.. These two plans
had been introductory to vast saviugs. In 1706, the
establishment of a chief officer consisted of forty
only ; now, in consequence of bringing forward
to the public eye all the names, &c. the number
bad swelled to 1010. The Honourable Baronet
had brought forward Resolutions with an inten-
tion of criminating Government. So far as the
Naval Department 4 was concerned, the Honour-
able Mover was cettainly wrong ; and he had no
doubt but that the charges against the other de-
partments of the State were equally groundless
The Honourable Member, then referring to the
evidence which he had delivered before a Cam-
i»ittee on the subject, read some extracts.—
There were certain officers in the dock yards
who were once allowed to take apprentices, but
now reduced to the limited salary of 6501. be-
cause the right of apprenticing was taken away
from Olen], The Hon. Bart,; (said Sir T. B.
Martin) had not read and fully weighed the solid
contents of the 50 folio reports, or lie never would
have brought forward his Resolutions. It was to
be hoped dint tie House would negitive them, as *
they were fallacioasly founded. The Hon. Mem-
ber then read a string of Resolationa, which he
had once intended to have heen substituted in
place of those now before the House. They were
a vindication of the present mode of management
of the Nara) Department, proving that the intro-
duction of limited salaries, in lieu of nominal ones.
was a vast saving to the public, although the ac-
count appeared larger from the necessity of every
person's business, name, and salary, being now

a .
Include.l in the Ettituttles. 1 Fie Hon. Membtri,
convi, ced.of the rectitude of observatiott3,
poied theitesnliniOne_4 the Hrin. Baronet, ap-
prehensive that they. might produce icrtgropet 1111-
pressions on the public anind. s
DAVIS said, 'that the' increase cif etflendi7
tore in the Secretary ht War'3 office was almost
incredible. . In the year 1797, the salaties of :16
clerks cost the public 19,0001.; the year ,follow-
: ing produced the increase to the amount of 29,0001.
and this present year it was at the. extravagant
sum of 47,0001. For bringing ups the accounts
in arrears the public was charged 31,0001. This
plan was begun 1811, and he believed they had
not as yet advanced much further ; at least they
had discovered no symptoms of approximating to-
wards a conclusion. Gentlemen seemed to ridi-
cule retrenchment and economy. But when the
,standing; army incurred an expeuce ot ten million,
a year, it became them to think of :retrenchment.
If the Sinking Fond amounted to 20 millions in-
stead of five millions, he would more.cordially
have voted for it. He highly approved of the
conduct and motion of the Hon. Baronet, and
would conscientiously support' it.
Mr. F. DoUGt,As treated, with indifference the
pretensions of those who opposed the motion by
havrug exposed some mistakes of his Hon. Friend
(Sir H. Parnell). But accompanied with those
psereiolsd mistakes, the Hon. Baronet had uttered
some bitter facts. It world have been very well
in those who treated the recommendations of eco-
nomy and retrenchment with indifference or ridi-
cule, if the National Debt were now at 200 mil-
lions instead of 800 There had been no case
made out against his Hon. Friend. I'he worthy
Comptrollor of the Navy had stated, that the in-
crease of expenditure in his department arose
.trom the particular systems adopted at different
periods. But he had tor; of to notice that the
expenses of the Navy and Pay Offices had milieu
/rpm 47 or- 49,0001. 115,0001., At the former
period we had 100,000 seamen, now only 20,000.
The Country must see and feel the extraordinary
anomalies in Taxation. The last lion. Member
had discovered an increase in one department
from 16.0001. to 57,0001. (47,0001.) and the lat-
ter in a period of peace. The Hon. Member la-
mented that there were no solid causes for the
bsliefasf retrenchment on the part of Government.
It. was easy. for them ,to form Committees to
sanction their expenditure; but the Country ex-
pected some solid savings.
Mr. ROBERT'WARD supported the Government
against the allegations of the Hon. Baronet who
had submitted to the House the Resolutions now
tinder consideration.
Mr. HlrTcniNsoza affirmed, that the retrench-
meets on the part of Governthent had'heen of a
pigmy nature, while time expenditure had been of
a'gigantic trod an alarmitik description. He re-
' commended retrenchment ir. the• Auditor's. Office
at—Lisbon; He was sorry to see so feet of his
Majesty's Ministers present at the close cif 'the
Session. The Hon. Member then eondeinned the
lavish expenditure supporting the establishMent
of St. Helena : the -expellees he estimated at
nearly one million, at least far beyond half 'a
million. The Hon. Member was decidedly of
opinion against the. policy and inhumanity.of the
measure. It was not time duty of his Majesty's
Ministers to become, or to appoint, the jailora
of Napoleon, merely for time purpose of gra-
tifying time wishes of other crowned heads.—
it was disgraceful to the country. It theme
was any chance of Buor..parte reviving his piths
lie commot ions, and consequently disturbing
the peace of mankind, lie would be the last man
to desire. his liberty ; but when the disposition of
France was directed towards title great object; to
bectimea'detertnioed gt eat nation—and when all
the natiOos of Europe were happily bent on peace,
there could be mi hazard in affording some so-
lacement to the fallen fortunes of a great man tiow
our priSoner. He admitted that the question
now agitated was one of great importance, but he
thought the expenditure of upwards of halt a mil-
lion for the mere confinement of !het
by far too great, w hen out finances were
in such an impoverished state.- Ile had read printed
aocoolaeos, which, it well founded, were injurious
to our charac'er as a nation, by the coot-torment
of that illusttions Prisoner. He condemeed the
cruelty cif Government in withdrawing Irotm him
his fa‘ourite medical attendant, when he was ad -
rhinit,tering his prolsesional Rid.. He hoped that
during the recess, Ministers would exert them-
selves to diminish the expenditure of this Cala-
bfishment, exceeding 500,0001. sterling.
Sir. 1. CoFFIN had no doubt 1),;t every endea-
vour would be used to produce the desired sys-
tem of retrenchment in every department.
The CHANCeLLOR of the EXCHEQUER admit-
ted that the Gentlethan who had spoken last but
uoc had produced some novelty of observation
by. a reference to the case of Bounaparte.—
(Hear, hear, hear !)--The expenditure of that
establishment did not amount to any thing like
a fourth of what had been mentioned by the
Honourable Member.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—At
first the expenditure was defrayed by the East
India Compay, who made their charges to Go-
verutnent. Instead of more than 500,0001. a-year,
the whole expence of the last three years had not
exceeded 3'or 400,0001.—(Hear, hear, hear 1)-7.
With regard to the Resolutions now submitted to
the House, they were totally erroneous. and lie
hoped that the House would not agree to them.
He confirmed the observations of the Honourable
Baronet (Sir T. B. Martin), that the apparent in-
crease of the accounts arose from the adoption of
limited salaries, and the abolition of all tees, &c.
The Right Honourable Member concluded by
moving, that the present question be adjourned to
thiS day three mouths. , _
Mr.GottooN thought it en illiberal way of con-
cluding, that if his tlon. Friend (Sir H. Parnell)
was wrong lo thousands, he might also be wrong;
In millions. The Gentlemen, therefore, on the I
opposite side triumphed on the occasion. " Bui
it is their business to support profligacy !"
General Nitres,. we believe, spoke to order,
•nd said, that if such imputations were applied
to him. he would not allow them to pass in silence.
Mr. Goer:iota meant no offence to any one. He
only'meant good homotiredly to notice ludicrously
the pretended cause of It iumph of those ie power.
In the beighth of his jocelarity, he commended
the affability and good humour of the Chattesllor a

4 .-. • arid,
of the Exchetirter, who,- three or tour years
had come forward with very grave assurrtnetiltil,44C
be .had passed a very .unpleasant
(Laugh.)-7--Bp '
t he hoped that the recess,. :Whitt
lie Wai now about to enjoy, would be pea"
agreeable and-pleasant to him.—(Littglij
there Sir
wasHENaanY
ied.
ney. All that he (Sir Henry) had said wasb°rd-
el: At
rilat4v%L. aLtirte 1111'1 of eh
einpstitsbileiCi 011:n.°1111.
out .by the' Committee of Finance. He bad-
'lanced nothing intentionally erroneous. He
perfectly convinced of the propriety of the i "'";
solutions, that *he should renew tie subject qty
Session of Parliament.
• Lord PALMitas-roN explained. lie meant "(i
offence to the Honourable Baronet in any exrreg('i
sions which he had used. If the one side
the Home thought themselves tothpetent t°,.9lti
attack, those with whom he had the honour tow.,
might also think themselves comp-,-tent tv tbOrd
defence. The War -Estimates had fOrmerly [gee
too low. The consequence was, that the numb %
of additional Clerks to make up- the account's•
arrear had produced the additional- expenditu'
It was not true that they had no-- advancedheYl, I
the year 1811 ; the accounts, of 1818 'vela coat
irlete, and ready for examination. His Lordsb'c
denied that the Secretary at War had any
either in the cumber or salaries of the 0043 --,
the War Office. lie could only make a repreSel.#
tation to the Treasury.
Colonel DAVIE's explained.
After a few words from Sir G. CoLßuat; lota
Mr. HuTcHtNsoN, theft sr Itosolor ion nasse,o,
and the que3tioil put on the Amendment, that /114
debate be adjonroed to this day three month"
which was ;weed to without a division.

STOREKEEPER GENERAL.
Ott the motion of Mr. liuma, the adjonrnell
debate on the Storekeeper-General's Department
was resuinctl.
Mr. Hung was entering into exttnsive details'
when
Sir JOHN MARJORIBANKS ECM/irked that there
were no forty Members present.
Mr. 11 a hoped that as be had given way ",
Public Business, the Flan. Baronet would ou*
press his objection, out of delicacy.
Sir J. MARJOEIBANKS Said, that the (resat',"
ought, to have come on eight days ago. He 53'"
tto indelicacy in the course which he was pal'
suing, but much in bringing forward Resolutiond
like the present; at a time when it was impossilad
they should be fairly discussed. He therefore
moved that the- House be counted.
The Howe was then counted, and only thirty'
one Members being present, an Adjournment to`
:14
place till to-morrow.