The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-17 00:00:00

had of knowing was by looking to the returns of the
ships, and, as far as he could judge from those, the
ships he had named were classed the same.
Sir G. COCKBURN—The 104-gun ships are not.
Captain BERKELEY eon tinued—W h y then was there
no difference between the 90 guns and the 92-gun ships?
It was as great a fault to over-man as to under-man a
ship, for in all cases the crews should be proportioned to
the number of guns. But above all things, it was unwise
to send the experimental squadron to sea under-manned.
—(Hear, hear.) Certainly a better man could not have
been chosen than the Gallant Admiral who was to take
that squadron to sea. But he feared that the result would
be disappointment in consequence of the want of a suffi-
cient complement of able seamen. The consequence
would be that the officers and the captains would become
discontented with each other, and the Admiral would
" blow up" them all. The Hon. and Gallant Officer then
read a letter of considerable length from Sir Hyde
Parker, but from the low and rapid manner
in which he read it, we could only gather
that the Gallant Ocffier disapproved of the mode
- in which the experimental squadron was to be manned.
Now he would go back to 1836. He was going to show
that this was not the only board that acted in this way,
but that other boards acted in a similar way. In 1836
he was appointed to a ship. There were seven ships of
the line building at that time. He found at that time
' that there was the greatest difficulty in getting men, and
other captains were in the same predicament. They
were obliged to have recourse to the coast-guard service.
It was stated that they had no reason to complain, for
the same class of ships as that which he commanded bore
the same number of men now. It was well known that
captains were anxious to get able-bodied seamen, and
men came to him and said that they would enter for his
ship, provided ho would enter them as able-bodied sea-
men, but he told them he did not consider there as such.
He feared he was wearying the House with these de-
tails, but this was a subject of the greatest importance
to the House and to the public; and whether they were
landsmen or seamen they should all consider that this
was a question on which the safety of the navy depended.
The Hon. Member then described the duties of a sailor,
and said that in former days no man was deemed an
efficient seaman until he was thoroughly conversant
with those duties; but now-a-days sailors were very dif-
ferent indeed, and so they would continue to be until
his plan should be adopted. When he was out upon a
voyage recently ho found that out of twelve of his crew
there were only seven who knew how to go into the
chains and use the lead. When ou that station, he re-
ceived an order from the then Board of Admiralty,
stating that the men in his ship should be allowed to
volunteer into any other ship. On receiving this order, ho
took it on himself to do that which he conceived
was required by the peculiar circumstances of the case.
But he was well aware that if he threw difficulties ia
the way of the Board of Admiralty—if he endeavoured
to shirk the order which they had given him—he should
not be doing his duty. He therefore addressed a letter
to Sir William Gage, and he told him that if any man
from his ship were allowed to volunteer into any other,
he should not be able to bring her home—he would not
undertake to bring her home. Sir William Gage, who
commanded on the station, came on beard his ship ; he
examined the company, he went through the whole of
them, and then he said that he should not take one man
from him, nor allow them to volunteer into any other ship.
Ile recollected, in 1836, that there was one man who
was asked at the rendezvous how long he was at sea, and
on informing them that he was twenty-two years at sea,
he was put down as an able-bodied seaman. But the
tact turned out to be that he was a discharged marine.—
(Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Member then road
an exeraet from a letter which he had received, in 1839,
from P.Jetemonth, which stated that the Powerful an-
chored after dark, and the men were in such a state that
they took more than hilt an hour furling the sails, and
the main-top they could not furL In 1810 he (Captain
Berkeley) was appointed to her Majesty's ship the
Thunderer, and it appeared that the few rood men whom
he had in the llercules were paid off andt came to the
Thunderer. He sent an officer to Plymouth, and Sir
David Dunn sent one to Portsmouth. Sir David
Dunn told him there was no use in having a rendezvous
in Plymouth while the Thunderer was in Portscouth.
Sir David Duun told him (Captain Berkeley) that when
he asked able seamen in the streets to join his ship, they
said " No, we will go to the Thunderer, f‘r the officers
there make the work light, and wish to see their ship
fully and properly manned." lie asiced the Gallant
' Officer eppocite was not that accounting for the under-
inenned state of the nary. The lion. and Gallant Ad-
miral 11,141, 801113 nights ago, hinted that the blame of de-
! .. •
I nciency was nut owing to him, but to the Chancel 0e of
the Exchequer, who would rot supply the funds. If he
r (Ceetain Berkeley) were in the Hon. Gentleman's place,
if they did not give him men eueugh, he would make
his bo-.v and withdraw from offiee.--(llear, hear.) lie
would now piss on to show why men could not Le ols•
tained. The first great reason was the general use of
steam-boats substituting machinery foi heed labour. Let
them look to Liverpool and the other great pone, e rel they
would find that passage-bents- had been eleirele laid
aside. At Plymouth and Portsmouth a great !lumber of
wherries were formerly in use, and a great number of
persons were thus trained to the sea ; but this description
of vessel was now but litale used. ile would now
again turn for a moment to the ease of the
Thunderer, from which he had been diverted by an
interruption from the Honeurable Gentleman opposite
The course they were pursuing would not do. They
ought to have a system fur manning ships and they
ought not to break faith with the seamen. They ought
not to do with the men what they had done with them ,
in China. It was true they had given batta to them,
hat the fact was, they had not given them prize money
for what they had done in China. What had beets
done ? Why, Government had taken everything,
and given their seamen nothing. And now, let him ask,
why was it that he had taken the trouble to make these
statements? In former times the merchant service was
a sort of nursery for The men-of-war ; but now the •
ships were rigged in dock by old Greenwich pensioners,
and, in fact, it was the men-of-war witp fur-
nished the merchant service with men. He ,
did not expect that the Board of Admiralty
would be induced to remedy those defects of
which he complained, merely because he made these ,
representations ; but those discussions would have a
very useful effect out of doors ; and it often happened
that they tended to carry a point; for upon a former occa- ,
sion be was defeated in that House by a large majority
upon a motion that he had brought forward ; but it was
looked upon as so important by the public, that the
Whig First Lord of the Admiralty, who then came into
office, expressed his approval of the project, because
public opinion and the tires§ were in favour of it.—
(Hear, hear.) He meant the affair of the ten-gun brigs.
--(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with
any further observation&
`air G. COCKBURN said he should answer the state-
ments of the Gallant Officer, first, by saying that he was ,
very much surprised to hear the Gallant Officer begin
his speech by charging him (Sir G. Cockburn) with
baring stated that he conceived there was no difficulty
whatever in manning the fleet. Now he (Sir George
Cockburn) had stated exactly the reverse of that, for he
said it had been found impossible to get efficient men
when they were wanted ; and that when men were dis- ,
charged from a man-of-war they either went into foileign
service or the merchant service, or got some sort of em-
ployment, for they required bread as well me other men;
and then, in three or four years time, if they should
happen to be wanted, they were not to be had. But at
present the state of the navy was not so bad as the Gal-
lant Officer supposed, for all the vessels were well manned, '
except, ho believed, the Queen, the Hibernia, and the
Canopus. As to what the Gallant Officer had stated
about men unfit to use the lead in the chains, he (Sir
G. Cockburn) begged to say that when he was in oom- '
mated of a ship he always tried his men before he
rated them.

Captain BERKEUJY said that the men he bad men-
tioned had been sent to him rated.

Sir G. COCKBURN then continued, by saying that
very few vessels of war had now more than six or eight
landsmen each in them. He concurred in the observa-
tions of the Gallant Officer, that men-of-war sent
abroad should be manned by efficient seamen. When he
(Sir G. Cockburn) was in command of a ship, the navy
was is a most efficient state, because it was necessary
then ; and he remembered, upon one occasion, that
several men-of-war were ready at forty-eight hours'
notice to sail for Lisbon. He could assure the Gallant
Officer that means had lately been adopted to procure
efficient men ; and when the vessels now in preparation
wero ready, they would be taken to the mouth of the
Channel, and the qualifications of the sailors and
marines then tried. As to what had been said about
not having tea sail of the line always in commission and
ready for sea at a short notice, that was matter for the
consideration of Government, and they would have
them ready if they should deem it necessary, but the
question was, was it necessary to put the country tosuch
an expense at such a period.—(Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to men entering the merchant service in preference
to the navy, he conceived that the contrary was the fact,
for when men entered the merchant service they were so
badly treated, and had so many deductions made from
them,. that they entered the navy when they could.—
' (Hear, hear.) He did not know that he had left any
other point of the Gallant Officer's speech unnoticed.
Mr. SOMES remarked that a good deal had been said
of the paucity of men at present in the navy, and fur his
part he could not understani how Hon. Members could
indulge in assertions of this nature. In 1814 the num-
ber of seamen in the service was 170,876, and at the
present time the number was 216,350, making an increase
of 42,000. He however admitted that the number of men
who were active and able had not increased in propor-
tion to the quality that were in the service in 1814.
Mr. H. LAMBTON complained that the crimping
system was the cause of the existence of great evils
amongst seamen. Numbers of poor sailers who
entered the port of London were daily being plundered
by these crimps, and he thought Government ought to
take some steps to put an end to the system. There
was another abuse which ought to be put down. When
sailors Caine into the port of Loudon they were seized
upon by low boarding-house keepers, who plunged them
into every sort of vice, and when they had got all their
money out of them they turned them into the streets to
starve. He hoped Government would take these matters
into their serious consideration, aid see if
there Was ugsr'se.at a
could not bo devised to put an ell' J these 131:7 means
scarcity of men in thesaisd,:rviee IS:44triatslteitheire was
awthtileihe perxeisseten-dt time, but
ebuntavhye
t(d)ittihnisotetitizo
, b'n't ratherte'
to
the want of experienced and efficient otEer.rs
well known that when they arrived at a certain Littn was
life they began to think women were not so handsomeof
as they had before imagined them ; and, in his opinion,
some llon. Memhz,rs had arrived at that time of life
when they began to think seamen wero not so able and
active as they were formerly.—(Laughter.) But if they
wished to have good seamen in the service, they must
take care to have active and experienced officers over them.
At present ships were allowed to remain at home, and
he thought, of all th# absurdities in the world, that of

suffering a full-manned vessel never to leave her moor-
ings was the greatest. These vessels were supplied
with some thirty or forty-five active young fellows,
whet were anxiously expecting that they would one day
become officers, but whose inexperience did more injury
to the service than anything else. He recollected an
instance of a line-of-battle ship having been kept at
her moorings for three years and three months, and
then sent to sea. Now, what was the result ? Why,
half the seamen were sea-sick, and the vessel itself was
found unseaworthy. If they wanted to have an efficient
service, they must place active and experienced officers
over the men, and not put persons in command who had
never seen a storm or a squall. He would break up
the fifteen line-of-battle ships, and distribute the men
and officers amongst small brigs. If Government would
adopt this plan, the service would be restored to its
former state, for thus the men and the officers would
have an opportunity of being constantly at sea and in
squalls.
Captain PECUELL concurred with the Hon. and
Gallant Member who had just sat down, and thought it
was sufficiently clear that the Hon. and Gallant Member
admitted the existence of the want of men in the navy.
Now he should be glad if the Hon. and Gallant Member
would explain how it happened that when he was in com-
mand of the Pique, and was required of his superior
ofiiicer to furl a sail, or to perform some other manoeuvre
whilst in the Bay of Cadiz, he stated that he was unable
to do so because some of his men were absent in a boat.
Why did not the Hon. and Gallant Member state the
real cause of his being unable to perform it, namely, that
his ship was not sufficiently manned.
Captain ROUS—It is the first time I over heard
of it.

Captain PECHELL said he had been informed of the
circumstance by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Gloucester, who at the time it occurred was in command
in the bay of Cadiz. He believed they had the will to
man their ships properly, but they would not effect that
object in the way they were proceeding. He complained
of the way that men were transferred from one ship to
another. The moment a ship was paid off, the seaman
whether belonging to the navy or merchant service was
considered a mark to be plundered by every person who
was so inclined—that was a system which ought to be
reprobated. Another thing which seamen had to com-
plain of was their being placed in the ten-gun brigs. It
was well known that they were unsafe, and not fit to be
used as the means of conveyance between this country.
What was the opinion of the country with respect to
them? Why, several of those vessels were offered for
sale at Somerset House by Mr. Corry and Sir William
Symonds. They asked 1,0001. for each of them, but
they would not fetch even 5001. Then, again,
they had good reason to complain as to the payment
of their wages. They felt that they were not paid well
enough, and he told them it would be well to raise the
wages of seamen now, when it was probable that they
would be obliged to raise them in a short time. His
Hon. Friend alluded to the want of able-bodied men.
That was a matter which the country had a deep interest
in. How could it be expected that those able-bodied
men would come to them, when their wages were so
small ? They would not come back till a more liberal
system was adopted towards them. They were gone, he
was afraid, to America and elsewhere, where they were
better paid. The Gallant Officer stated that it was the
intention of the Government to man the experimental
squadron, and to give the ships the proper complements.
That was very good, but what he (Captain Pechell)
wanted was, that the same system should be carried out
generally with regard to the navy. Those ships may
not be wanted alone at the chops of the Channel. They
might! be wanted again at Tangiers. to look after the
Prince de doinville and the Belle Poole. They were
told they ought not to speak of that Prince; but if their
presence were wanted in any part of the world, they
ought to he in a position to enable them to be there with
effect. He knew that the Admiralty were not the
great obstacle to what he required. Ile knew the great
obstacle was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was
a millstone around the necks of the Board. But there
were the Hon. Member for Montrose and the Hon.
Member for Coventry, who looked so well after the pub-
lie puree, and they had no ebjection to see the navy of
the country put into a proper and efficient condition.
Mr. SOMES explained.
Lord INGESTRE rose for the purpose of expressing
his assent to what had fallen from his Hon. and Gallant
Friend the Member for Westminster. He thought that
no more important question could come before the
House than the way in which their ships were manned.
The Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton had spoken '
of the way in which the seamen belonging to the navy
were treated ; but he believed that they had more com-
forts in the British navy than in any service in the world.
He gave the present Government credit for wishing to
see the navy properly manned.
Sir C. NAPIER said that the Right Hon. and Gallant
Oilieer had frequently complained that the lion.
e'embers on his (Sir C. Napier's) side of the House
were constantly finding fault. The same assertion had
been repeated on that night. He declared now, as be
had clone on former occasions, that he. had no wish

whatever to find fault with any B Lard of Admiralty—
the present or any other—however constituted. He felt
satisfied that his IL,n. Friend the Member for Glou-
cester did not get up for the purpose of finding fault. It
was not their interest to find fault. Had he (Sir C.
Napier) remained silent— had he behaved himself in a
proper tnanner—(Laughter)—he would be now in a
better position. The Hot,. and Gallant Officer srai:ed
at this, but it was not the less likely that had he be,l
more quiet, and ltsss given to the fair and open ex-
pression of his opinion on naval matters, he would now
Lacy been in command of the experimental squadron, or
at least of on,: of the ships belonging to it. A Lord of
the Admiralty hid assured him that he would have
been very happy to see him in command, and had
ask,d him what ship he liked ; but when he
subsequently expressed surprise at having been
passed over, he was told that he was too
violent and too much of a party man. He disclaimed
being a party Klan, or a violent man, upon any question
in which the naval service of this country was concerned,
and he defied any cno to show it. lle had long sought,
by private representations to the Admiralty, to reform
abuses, and render the service more effective, but found
such representations utterly useless. Nothing could be
done for the navy in that House, except by agitation.—
(Hear.) It was the only way to get ships properly manned
and fitted out. Unless when driven by public opinion,
the Government never would abandon their old course.
The Gallant Officer seemed offended that his Hon. and
Gallant Friend should have said, on a former occasion,
that tho navy was not sufficiently manned ; and the
Gallant Officer then said, or at least was reported to have
said, that the ships were as well manned as in war time.
The next morning, when he (Sir Charles Napier) went to
the United Service Club, he was at once surrounded
by about twenty officers who asked him if it were possible j
that Sir George Cockburn had said, that ships were as
well manned as they used to be. He answered that
he believed it was, and thoy expressed their surprise at
such a statemeot. The Gallant Officer further stated

that he had mustered the ships and found them well
manned. His (Sir C. Napier's) opinion was, that the
eight sail of the line now in commission wore very
badly manned. He was in Portsmouth a few days ago,
and asked many inferior officers there (whose names he
would not mention, because it would probably be inju-
rious to them) what there opinions were as to the state
of the navy, and the general opinion was, that the ships
were extremely ill-manned. He could not conceive why
those men would say so, if it were not the case, and it also
seemed strange that the Gallant Officer opposite should
express himself with confidence in a directly opposite
manner. This would be very puzzling, was it not very
well known, that the Admiralty was not
the place which truth could reach. Officers
looking out for employment were always ready
to put that construction upon the state of the
navy which they thought would please the Board. He
did net blame the Admiralty for not manning the ships.
It was not their fault—they were placed there to do the
best they could—the fault lay with the Government.
When the present Government came into power, they
found 26 sail of the line in commission, most of which
had been at sea for a considerable time, and their crews
in a good state of discipline ; but the Government re-
duced that number to five or six. The first year they
reduced the fleet in the Mediterranean to twelve ; the
next to eight ; and the third to one. When they were
in difficulties, all they could produce was three sail of
the line, and one of these had to go to South America.
They had now a fleet of ten sail of the line, and he hoped
they at least would be well manned and efficiently fitted
out.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer expressed his
surprise that they should get the men so quick.
Why, what did he call quick ? In January or
December last the first ship was commissioned,
and they were then in the middle of May, and eight sail
of the line were net ready. Surely there must be some
bungling here, wherever or however that bungling took
place. Ships which had left Plymouth commissioned,
were brought into Portsmouth, and taken into dock for
examination, to have an inspection of their bottoms,
at a cost of 500/. or 600/. to the country, and after
being commissioned, they were taken into dock again
Why could not this inspection have taken place before
they were commissioned ? He thought the Government
were wrong in pursuing this eisonomical course. If they
wished to have a proper squadron they must not send
the ships to sea with inferior crews. When such was
the case officers became slovenly, and the men dissatis-
fied. Things could not be done with that instantaneous
precision and dispatch so necessary on board a ship, nor,
indeed, in a manner befitting the dignity of a British
man-of-war. The men were incensed and disgusted with
eternal work, and were much in the same condition as
Sir Pulteney Malcolm spoke of, when he said,
they were " all hands all day, and every
body at night."—(Bear, hear.) If they wished to
make the naval service popular, they must give up all
Notions of this miserable economy. It %RS better to
send but few ships to sea, but send those few properly
manned. It W:l3 not the number of men ‘%hich was so
expensive, but the wear and tear of the ships. If the
ships were fitted out on a more liberal scale, men would
be obtained with more ease, and sailors would discharge
their duty when they had but their own proper duty to
perform, with a more hearty goodwill. The Hon. and
Gallant Commodore then mentioned the defective man-
ning of the Albion, which, though a very large 9.1-gun
ship, had only the same number or mrn as the Thua-
dorer, of' less capacity. He felt surtnised that the Hoa.
anti Gallant Baronet should tell his Hon. and Gallant
Friend that seamen were as good as ever. It was im-
possible that such should be the case. Their seamen
had been destroyed by the steam-vessels. They might
have very good stokers, engineers, and coalheavers now,
but not sailors.—(Hear, I-ear.) They might find such
mesitieirn.pesasbioll:eetrtosoehfdeaadul a mainsail, but were they the sort of
men that would run up the top of the yards on a cold
and stormy night?—were they the sort of men to get
dbyifficruaillta(,
firmedsteam
what nboew,l Ibeya r, ear. ) Even
in
donea s. on
rt
the time,a
trade.grea great
whichmTehae-
would be
Hon. Gentlemen opposite might coastingin
might laugh, but steam had
been a great blow to the • • of
training seamen, Lord