The Sun.
London, England, 1828-02-23 00:00:00

CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.

)Ir. KNOX presented• petitions from Upper Do-
neughmote, DrumlusJ, -and some parishes in the
.-ountyef Detry, in favour of Catholic Emancipation.
Mr, HEYRY GRATTAN presented similar
-petitions from the county of Wicklow.
On the motion of :Mr. MABEItLY, there was °Mined
t!: he laid before the House au account of the total amount
untedeetned debt on the nth of January iu each year
since lb L 5. The motion also included several other ac-
"aunta connected with The funded and unfunded debt, and
!tring fund.
the metion of Mr. Alderman TIIOIIIPSON, an ac-
count was ordered •of the number of vessels laden with
Ovals whith were entered at the Custom-house of Stockton-
open-Tees within the last .veur.
On the motion of Mr. R. GORDON, axle was ordered
,n account ot the Ilma of money received and e.xpended by
rh ttea3urvis and clerks of the peace in the several counties
of Est;;land and Wales, and the application thereof, and
balance in Land in each county in fanuary last.
Mt LINDSAY preSented a petition from the INlaltster)
nr Wigan, against the malt Act.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIL:-
QUER, it was ordered that the House at it) rising do ad-
journ to Monday-.
• on the motion of Dr. PHILLINIORE, a return was
ti-dered " of all the Courts Ivhich exercise Ecclesiastical
u in the several dioresacs td. England and
th: names '
of the Judges,
eg !sot roafrs
thea n til,ol,4.)eilii,o Deputy
teig,
j
'rats of all the said Courts; al
m
hey arc appointed, and their respective situations."
Mr. PEEL, adverting to the notice of 'tuition fur a
Select Committee on the Police of the Metropolis, ~ititb
steed fur Thurbdav next, observed, that it was his iuten_
tmn that the inquiries of the Committee should not be
Bruited to the police of the metropolis alone, but should ex-
ttud also to districts in the neighbourhood of London.

COMMII"TEE UP SUPPLY-ARMY AND orm_.

NANCE ESTIMATES.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the order of the day that the House do resolve
itself into a Committtee of Supply, and that the Army ;.nil
Ordnance Estimate* be referred thereto; was read.
The queltion that the SPEAKER do leave the Chai)

was put and carried; but a, the tight Hun. Gentleman
was about to-quit the chair,
Me. Alderman WAITHMAN rose, and twice attempted
to address the House, but the Speaker intimated that it
was then too late,- and the Hon. Alderman resumed hi,
seat amid sonic laughter.
The Hulse havinggone into the Committee,
Lord PALMERSTON held, that for the convenience of
the House, be would, in proposing the vote, instead of
taking hall the sum required ut each item, or instead o!.
proposing the whale sum on each for six months, take a cer-
tain sum on account of the whole. It was necessary that
a certain snoa_should be provided to carry on the servace. of
the year:, and that the Mutiny Act should be passed, which
Hon. Members knew would expire in the course of next
month. The whole of the suns for the land force was
3,000,000/. Of this he proposed to take 2,000,000/. on
account, which would leave a balance of 1,000,000/. ; and
when the subject came to be discussed, and file amount of
each item to be .sleterruineil, there would be sufficient for
the House on which to snake what diminution it might
think proper. .The estimates were made out at the maxi-
mount. 'f he way in Which he- proposed the vote would
leave the question of numbers to the consideration of the
Anance committee as much as if the vote bad been taken
for six months instead of a year. Besides the 2,000,000/.
ou account of the land forces, he would take 1,000,000/.
on account of the out-pensioners of Chelsea. The whole
sum for that was 1,200,0001. This item was one on
which no reduction could be made consistently with the
observance of national faith. He did not mean at present to
enter into any. detailed explanation, as was usual when pro-
posing the votes for the service of the year ; but he thought
it right to say a few words on the addition to our force,
which appeared on the face of the estimates. This arose
front bringing into the account the colonial corps, which
heretofore were charged on the colonial revenues. This
applied to the colonial corps, arid also to the regiments of
the line and staff employed in Ceylon and the Mediterra-
nean. These, as he had said, appeared to be charged en
the colonial revenue; but though so charged, they still
came out of the ordinaries of the army, as the 'colonies
drew for them on those ordinaries, and often for more
than the amount so expended. It was, therefore, a fal-
lacy to leave it as a charge corning out of another fund,
when in fact the greater part were to be Made by this
country iu the saute way as the other ordinaries of the
army.—(ilear, hear, from the Opposition side.) It Would
be better that the whole should be brought into one ac-
count. This plan had been suggested by a Noble Lord
not long since at the head of the Colonial Department,
and had been concurred in and adopted by the Right
lion. -Gentleman now at the head of that office. In fit-
ture, therefore, the colonial troops would be -included in
the ordinary of the army, and whatever surplus revenue
accrued in the colonies would be accounted for by time
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and brought into the ways and
means of the year. He had mentioned this alteration to ac-
count for the apparent increase of 3,000 in the number or
men, though in reality there was a diminution of 5,000,
owing to -the check on our recruiting establishment,
which would be only 6,000 this year ; whereas it had been
15,000 last year. The recruiting establishment of time
present year would be sufficient to maintain our force in
an effective state, as that force would be 5,000 less than the
last year. Now, the effect of the arrangement he had
mentioned respecting the colonial corps would be, that tlicv
would take credit for a diminution of expense of only
14,0001., while the real saving would be from 150,0001.
to 160,000/. This saving would be thus made up on the
land forces, including the addition of 3,000 men :
On account of pay £25,000
Saving in recruiting department
Saving in addition of pay. for length of ser-
vice to Officers and men, as there were
fewer this year than last
Saving iu the charges fur Yeomanry 86,000

Making
Which with a saving of (on other items).._ 4,000
Making iri all a difference of 158,0001. as less than the
amount of last year. It was true that a great part of this
would be absorbed by bringing the colonial corps into thu
general account; so that though the real saving was so
much, the apparent saving was but small. He would ab •
stain from farther explanation, until he should'be deter-
mined what was to be the amount of our establishment:,
fur the year, and would move his first resolution, but with

:he distinct understanding that it would be fully compe-
tent to any Member hereafter to renew the discussion on
the whole amount of force to be kept, and the expense at
which it was to be maintained. The Noble Lord then
moved that 91,075 men be kept up as the land force of
the year, bieluding• commissioned- and non-conitnissioned
afiuore, .+4a not including the force kept up for the service
of the Last India Company.
Colonel DAVIES expressed his surprise at the state-
ment now made by the Noble Lord. They had been told
over and over again, that the troops employed in sonic of
the Colunies,were pai449Pa fide out of the revenue of those
Colonies, and that the House, had nothing to do with
the- payment. Now, however, it Ives admitted that the
whole was a delusion,aod that the payment of those troop:,
was to be supplied by this country. He was glad, however,
to find that new light hailtroken in upon the Noble
Lord on this point, and he hoped it alight be taken as a
Proof of the beginning of a better system. They had
.heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) the
other night, a statement which promised a better system
of finance 'and accounts,ind he now hoped that the coun-
try-were about to have the benefit of arm improved system
with respect to our army. The management of our Colo-
nies had hitherto been marked by a most wasteful expen-
diture. Of this numerous instances might he given, but
be would mention only one. Before the Colony of the
Cape of Good Hope came into our possession, it used to
pay its own expenseS out of its own revenue, and left a
considerable surplus; but the moment it came into out'
hands, that revenue was found insufficient, and it became
a eliarge to the country. It would seem as if we desired
Colonies solely for the purpose of quarteringaud pensioning
upon them' the junior branches Of our Nobility.__
(Hear, hear.) Though he was glad to find that we were
likely to -come to a better system, he could not go
eking with the - Noble Lord in the course he proposed.
It was said that the House could at any time withhold the
supplies, if it should disapprove of the estimates; but the
better course, and more consistent with common sense,
would be, to give the vote at present 14 no more than the
public service celled for at present. If Government were
disposed to reduce the public expenditure, why not refer
the estimates at once to the Enema Committee, where
they had the means of going into the most minute investi-
gation ? After what fell from' the Right lion. Gentleman
(Mr. Peel) on a former evening, he had every hope from
the labours of the Committee of Finance. At the pre-
sent time, and considering the circumstances of the coun-
try, our military establishments Were altogether too large.
He would not compare them with tloeie of 1792, but would
go to only a few years back ; and looking at our establish-
ment in 1823, he found, that with as much cause for a
large force as at present, our military force was 21,000
men less, and cost 650,000/. less than the force of the
present year. The Noble Lord (Palmerston) said, that
our expenditure was 156,0001. less this year than the last:
lie,,however, could not make that out. We had now to
pay for a nominal force of 91,000 men, hut we could not
briag 80,000 effective men into the field. This arose from
the practice of having depot companies. attached to each
imps, which in the whole amounted to 11,00 b non-effec-
tive men, who were employed, and whose charge raised
the expellee about 450,0001. But, putting that out of
the question, he found fault with the force kept up as too
large. Ou referring to the estimates of 1819, he found
the total expense of recruitiug in the United Kingdom
was 17,000/., and in the present year 28,0001., though
in 1819 the number of men engaged in that department
was 8,500, and in the present year only 6,000. He did
hope that these matters would occupy the attention of the
Finance Committee, for at present they' bore any thing
but an appearance of economy, and he must protest against
the extravagance evident in the whole.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAINI, as he bad not had an op-
portunity of addressing the House before' it went into the
Committee, would avail himself of the next occasion which
presented. Looking at the amouot of the estimates, not-
withstanding what had been stated by the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr: Peel) on the subject, he despaired of any
plan which could be pointed out until lie saw an effectual
reformation in the public expenditure. As to the Finance
Committee, he had a high respect for many of the names
plated on it, but recollecting that he had never seen any
.public advantage result from any former Finance Committee,
he had no expectations from the present. Such Committees
were iu general a delusion on the public. They were ap-
pointed only to get over the difficulty of the moment, and
drive
were never resorted to until Ministers-were
were into a corner by their own extravagance. NVhnei as i
the
last last Government proposed this Finance Coinntitice, he was
pleased with the apparent disposition to retrench some of
our extravagant expenditure, lie hail never gone over to
that, but hunible as he was, had kept his former position.
However, as far as that or the present Government would
go to reform the abuses and diminish the expenditure of the
country, he would go with them. What was intended
lie could not anticipate ; but he was not much disposed
to vote any grants on Ministerial responsibility. He
wished to know what was intended. This, however,
was not to be obtained until after the Finance Committee
Aieuld report, and thus the delay which Ministers required

would he obtained. They were told of a general desire
of economy ; but when any particular reduction was point-
ed out, there was always some excuse for evading it. Re-
duCtions proposed in the navy were answered by the neces-
sity of upholding that great national bitlwark: RedUctions
in the army were oNosed on some other ground ; and thus
the several professions of economy turned out to mean no-
thing. lie remembered that on one occasion Lord Castle-
reagh came down to the House, and made.a speech charac-
terized by the true spirit of economy, in which be recom-
mended that the establishments should be reduced. The
Noble Lord had been driven into that course by the refusal
of the House to vote the property-tax. If that had been
granted ; the Minister would have said nothing about eco-
nomy, The Right Hon, Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel),
had stated on a former night, that the income of the coun-
try,.for the. last five. ears, was 261,000,000/., and the ex-
penditure 249,000,0001., leaving a surplus of 12,000,000/. ;
but this surplus was to meet a sinking fund 0f5,000,000/.
per annum for five. years, .so that in fact there was a defi-
ciency of 13,000,000/. Yet the House ivas.. now called
upon to vote a standingatiuy of 90,000 men in time of peace,
with all our debts and embarrassments about us. The coun-
try could not bear new taxation; if it were taxed further
it must be only under a government with a military com-
mander for its head, and at the point of the bayonet. He
begged the attention of the House to a statement of the
expenditure of the country for the last five years. Ili
1823 it was 47,500,0001 ; in 1824, 49,500,000/. ; in
1825, 48,500,000/. ; in 1826, 49,500,000/. ; in 1827,
49,500,000/. ; being an increase of 1,500,000/. ; on
five years. In 1823, the current expences of the year, in-
dependently of the interest on the national debt, which was
included in the above statement, was, 18,500,000/. ; in
1824, 20,600,000/. ; in 1825, 20,000,000/. ; in 1826,
21,500,000/. ; in 1827, 21,500,000/. ; making an in..
crease_iu the four years of 9,500,000/. It was shocking to
think that the expenditure of the country should thus go
on increasing whilst the people were labouring under suffer-
ings of the most extreme :nature. It had come to his
knowledge within the last two or three weeks that in one
parish in the city of London, containing only 100 houses,
193 persons had been summoned for non-payment of the
poor-rates. The workhouse of that parish was full, be-
side which there were a large number of out-pensioners.
On the surface of society every thing bore the ap-
pearance of prosperity, but poverty was extensively
spreading, though it did not meet the eye. Knowing
this, he thought he would be neglectful of his duty, if he
did not protest against the proposal now made, to maintain
a standing army of 90,000 into. We seemed, now a-days,
to have quite forgotten all the notions of our ancestors, and
probably he should be laughed at for alluding to theta ;
nevertheless it might not be improper to remind the House,
that we bad no standing aims, before the revolution. In
King William's time, when the Pretender was endeavour-
ing to overthrow the Government, the army did not ex-
ceed 7,000 men; but now we had of cavalry alone 8,000,

with 6,000 horses devouring the country.—(A laugh. )
Tim Noble Secretary opposite seemed quite delighted with
what he stated, but the country would not be so well
pleased when they heard of it. It was shameful that the

people should be taxed to maintain 6,000 horses in no way
necessary to the splendour or protection of the country. In
the time of George I. and George IL, great opposition was
always offered to the votes for augmenting the standing
army, though it was only proposed to raise it to 16,000.
Sir R. Walpole however, had something like a plea for
maintaininganartny—thePretender still prosecuted his de-
signs, and there had been a rebellion in the country. Ile had
to learn, however, what there was iti the circumstances of
this country which called for a standing army of 90,000

_ .
men. On constitutional grounds alone it was highly ob-
jectionable that so large an armed force should be maintained.
The precedent was bad. After again urging the necessity,
of retrenchment, the Hon. Member said he could place no
reliance on the stability of the present Government. One
GoVernMent had already been blown up, and as there were
two barrels of gimpowder placed under the present, it was
likely to suffer similar fate.—(A laugh.)—How long it
would last, how long it would be before it was blown up,
what ennfidence its Members could have in its stability,
ho* long they could hang together (that was an unfortu-
nate word—some persons might be wicked enough to say
they ought to hang together), lie could not pretend to guess.
--(Hear.)--On the appointment of the finance Com-
mittee the ether night, the House was most grossly disap-
pointed. The House on that occasion waiting in anxious
expectation to hear, not an exposition of the financial con-
cerns of the country, but what sort of explanations two
Right Hon. Gentlemen would make. On that occasion
they made no explanation, but subsequently they had,
and God knew, a poor kind of explanation it was. It
left the House as much in the dark as before.,(lsfear,
and a laugh.)—Fur his -part he could put no Confidence
in a government of which those two Right Hon. Gentle.
tnett.formed,a part, and he was only sorry that an Hon.
Member, who had cut one of the Right Hon. Gentlemen
to. shreds and patches and totally demolished him, should
have allowed the other to escape without observation:-.»
(Hear, and laughter.) Some explanation was still wanted
from the Right Hon. Gentlemen. The country wanted it.
--(Hear.) It was impossible to walk the streets, to go on
the Royal Exchange, or to enter a coffee-house, without
hearing that explanation called fur.—(Hear, hear.) Those
also were his feelings, and it was, therefore, with the
greatest amazement he heard the explanations on a former
evening. When a Right Hon. Gentleman was asked why
he had not told Mr. Tierney what was going on, till all
the Ministers were turned out—why he did not mention
the circumstance to Lord Lansdowne—whv he did not
state it in his letter to Mr. Tierney—" Oh," said he, " I
had no business with it; it was quite sufficient for me to
send in my resignation to the First Lord of the Treasory."
—(Hear, hear.) When the Right Hon. Gentlemen were
driven Lard, when they put out the signal of distress,
when they. could not form a government without inviting
the co-operation of such men as Lord Lansdowne and
Mr. Tierney, they availed themselves of their influence,
and the assistance . of their friends, to carry on the
affairs of Government in that House, but at last they
had turned tail on them, and provided for them-
selves in the, best way they could.—(Hear, bear.) In
so doing, the Right Hon. Gentleman had, in his opinion,
acted with duplicity. He might perhaps be exposing his
ignorance when be said this. He knew nothing of the way
in which Cabinet Ministers were accustomed to act, but in
the common affairs of life, if such a case had arisen as that
which led to the dissolution of the last Cabinet, communi-
cation would have taken place, and the colleagues of the
Right Hon. Gentleman would have said, " let us talk over
the matter and consult as to what shall be done." He
had heard that when " virtue admits of parley she is near
surrender ;" but the two Right Hun. Gentlemen had sur-
rendered without any parley.—(Hear.)— They found
themselves in the arms of each other, and surrounded by
their new colleagues nobody knew how.—(A laugh.)__
Such conduct could excite only contempt--it was a standing
jest—the Government was degraded by it; and if Parliament
allowed itself to be governed by such a Ministry, it would be
a degradation to them and an insult to the country. (Hear.)
—The allotment of parts in the Cabinet really appeared
ludicrous, quite as much so as it would be to put Mr
Liston in Sir Georye Airy, and Mr. Kemble in Tony
Lurnphin.—(A laugh. )—The late Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was sent to repose at the Mint.. God knew what
he was to do there. He (Mr. Waithwau) rather thought
the Right Hon. Gentleman was a great encumbrance to
Government.---(A laugh.)—After a few observations 'con;
nected with the vote before the Committee, the Hon;
Member begged to say one word on the subject of the
pledges which had been so much alluded to. He did not
believe that any pledges would be given under the present
Government which were not signed on the drum head.
The Hon. Member concluded by urging the House to
watch over the public money, as that was the only hold
they had of a profligate Government.

in answer to a question from Mr. BERN L,
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the House, by agree-
ing to the present vote, would not be precluded front here-
after deciding upon the number of men. He would take'
this opportunity of stating, that what bad fallen front his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) on a former night,
relative,to the Committee of Finance, must have been rnis-,
understeod. What his Hon. Friend stated must have been,
that if the number of meta wanted for the service of the
eountry being continually op&t►ted upon by our relations
with foreign countries, it was a question which must 4-
Ways be open between Ministers and the Parliament ; and
that a Committee of Finance could nut, definitively fix any
amount of force to he constantly maintained. He - con-
tended that the present vote would by no means compro-
mise the right of the House hereafter to reduce any of the
votes; should the Finance Committee recommend their re-
duction. With respect to the land tbrees and Chelsea pen-
sions, he had adopted the mode of calling for votes on
account generally, rather than propuse suu►s for specific
items.

Mr. MABERLY admitted that though it was impossible
for the Finance Committee to possess the evidence which
Government must have telativc to political questions, yet,
when the Ministers come dowii to that liaise with a pro-
posal of numbers, it was full time to pronounce an opinion
upon that specific pruposition.—(llcar.)—He was anxious
to put the Committee of Supply on its guard against sane•
tioning certain numbers fur the army or navy, under the
idea that the Finance Committee would correct any extra-
vagance which should hereafter' be found to attach to the
present vote. He admitted there were difficulties respect.
jug the adjurtuient of the numbers, owwg to the possible

operation of the secret article in the treaty of last
treaty which be pronounced inexpedient, unjust, and con-
trary to the real principles of the law of nations.
Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, it appeared to him that
there Was no very material difference between the Hon.
Gentleman opposite and himself, on the subject of the
duties of the Finance Committee, or the course adopted by
the Noble Secretary at War on the present occasion. it
was undoubtedly true, that the House could not delegate
its authority to a Finance Committee—(Hear)—or suffer
a usurpation of the privileges it justly claimed to exercise.
in relation to the establishments, income, and expenditure
of the country. Parliament might listen to the opinions
which such a Committee was called on to express ; but it
was for the House to reserve to itself the right of coming
to an ultimate decision upon all these points. In attempt-
ing (as he did on a former evening) to state the nature of
the duties which the Finance Committee would have to dis-
chsrge, he mentioned that it was difficult to define them
exactly, or to lay down one invariable rule by which the
proceedings of the Committee should be governed. There
were many parts and branches of the public establish-
ments into which they could enquire; and there were
other parts and branches in which it must be left to Go-
vernment to decide. He had before instanced the secret
article contained in the Treaty of London, as one of those
cases with which the Committee could not be expected to
deal, if it had been in existence at the period when
that Treaty was concluded. Similar eases might again
occur, the, particulars of which it would be impossible
to communicate to a Committee of Finance. Under
such circumstances, Government could not take the Com-
mittee into his Majesty's Councils, and afford it sufficient
data for coining to a conclusion as to what ought
to be the amount of our establishments. But what the
Committee could undertake it would endeavour to effect.
At that moment it was enquiring into the details and
amount of the Navy Estimates. He (Mr. Peel) was not
a member of the Committee, but such was the manner in
which he understood it was then engaged. They bad al-
ready summoned before them one Lord of the Admiralty
and a Secretary, who, there was no doubt, would commu-
nicate all the information which, consistently with their
duty, they could afford. On every point relating to the
actual amount of our force, the Committee had it in their
power to get all the information they required. Among
other topics to which the Hon. Member had alluded, he
contrived to introduce some mention of the circumstances
connected with the dissolution of the late Government,
thus affording conclusive evidence, by the extraneous mat-
ters he touched upon, that a Committee above stairs, which
could have nothing to do with subjects of a political na-
ture, was the best calculated for investigating our financial
affairs with effect. The Hon. Alderman seized the oppor-
tunity to allude to explanations lately made in that House,
but which he (Mr. Peel) sincerely hoped were now at an
end. He did not exactly sec how these explanations con-
nected themselves with the subject before the House. Cer-
tain it was, that the Hon. Alderman had permitted the
opportunity to pass away at the time when the explana-
tions were snaking, and which was also the proper time
for remarking on them, and now came down to the House,
when the Army Estimates were before the Committee, and
consumed one half of his speech in discussing matters not
certainly very closely connected with the subject of Sup-
ply. The Hon. Alderman's conduct on the occasion had
this good effect—it proved that Government had adopted
the true course in appointing a Finance Committee, to
which the consideration of the details in question might
be referred.

Mr. CALCRAFT'dieapproved of the plan proposed by
the Noble Lord opposite, for passing the Estimates on the
present occasion. As for the Mutiny Bill, that might
easily be taken for the same period as the proposed vote.—
The Treaty of London, and those by which we were
bound to assist -Portugal, must oblige us to keep up a large
force; and it was possible untoward events might occur
to resider it necessary to send back the 5,1100 men that
were shortly expected to return from that country. He
wished to say one word in answer to the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) who took occasion to de-
precate the introduction of extraneous topics iu the speech
of the lion. Alderman (Waithinan), and intimated, that
the discussion of such matters were irregular, when the
Army Estimates, were under consideration. He (Mr.
Calcraft) thought it very hard to say what was an extra-
neous topic in a debate on the Army Estimates, which pre-
sented occasion for taking the most extended view of the
situation and various interests of the country. It bad been
the practice in the best Parliamentary times—in the time
of Messrs. Fox, Pitt; Burke, Windham, and Sheridan—
to convert the discussions on the Estimates into opportuni-
ties for debating matters connected_stith the general inte-
rests of the country. Such' 'Rini :the ease, the
Honourable Alderman ryes fully borne out by prece-
dent in the course he had taken. :Had it not
been for the difficulties under which the country laboured
he (Mr. Calcraft) was satisfied no CoMmittee of Finance
would have been appointed. However, he was glad, not
only that it had been appointed, but that we now bad al-
most an entire new set of performers at the Treasury.
Though experience might frequently be useful to public
men, yet be felt glad that we had a new Chancellor of the
Exchequer, unpledged to the deceits, follies, and disgusting
quackeries, which it had hens the practice for years to in-
troduce in the management of the public accounts. He
hailed the Right Hon. Gentleman's accession to office as a
fortunate occurrence—not that he meant to flatter the
Right lion. Gentleman, or insinuate that he was peculiarly
qualified to discharge the duties of the office—of that be
(Mr. -Calcraft) knew nothing—but because the Right
Hon. Gentleman was a new man. He thought there was
not likely to be any cause for laying on new taxes. To
borrow money for the purpose of creating a Sinking Fund,
was the extreme of absurdity. Let a system of economy
I he adopted in the management of the public finances, and
if there should be a surplus of income over expen-
diture, it might be applied to the extinction of the
debt, or else allowed to return into the pockets of
the people in the shape of a remission of taxes. He
agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel)
that there were points with which the Finance Committee
could not intermeddle. Their labours would, no doubt,
be beneficial to the country ; but he would not have the
• House bound by their report. There was one item in the
Army Estimates that filled him with the deepest regret ; it
was one which arose out of the stupid policy observed to,
wards Ireland—he alluded to the grant of 2:3,000 men for the
public service in that country. The cost of the establish-
ment in that country, including land-forces, ordnance, and
commissariat, amounted to nearly a million sterling._
There were the best of reasons for retracing their steps,
and acknowledging that that country was ill governed
which required force to restrain it.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the Hon. .Gentleman who
spoke last had misunderstood the observations which he
(Mr. Peel) had applied to the speech of the Hon. Alder-
man.—He never meant to limit the power possessed by
Hon. Members to make observations of a general nature,
when the Estimates were before the House, and had only
alluded to the effect of such general observations, in order
to prove that financial details could be better managed by
a Committee, whose attention would be solely confined to
them. lion. Gentlemen, therefore, ought not to object to
a'Constnittee, the utility of which was satisfactorily proved
by the nature of their oot.n speeches.
Mr. CALCRAFT explained.
In reply to an observation from Mr. HuMe.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that there existed no objec-
tion on the part of Government to afford totbe Committee-
every possible information with respect to the amount of
our military and naval establishments.

Mr. lILT-INIE said, it was now understood, that the Fi-
nance Committee could not decide with respect to the
number or amount.of our estaLlishmeuts. The Commit-
tee might be willing to form an opinion, and the lionse be
willing to take it ; at the same time that Treaties existed,
which would prevent that opinion from being of the
smallest value. He thought the present the moment when
Ciovernment should state why it was necessary to keep up
so large a force. Why, lie asked, were there 4,000 men
more for the military establishment than last year ? Fre-
quent allusion had been made to a change of opinion in
the Cabinet--he wished he could see a chative of measures.
That he could not perceive. It was true a change had
taken place in the lreaany Department; but the Tre4l'urY
had little or nothing to do with the troops, and, with a
very tew exceptions, the amount of our military estahlish-
nient appeared to be decided by the same individuals
as had determined en it for the last ten 'yeas. If other
Ministers had been changed, the
Si
not. The Noble Lord had lung concurred W
dirl; had
the
)thought
delusion, which it was so equently attempted to put upon
the country—so long, indeed, that
the. Noble Lord was hound to apololgieise(flkoi.
for his conduct to
the House. The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to ob-
serve upon the great increase that had taken placein the
expenditure of the military staff since 179. t. lie then
adverted to the mismanagement of our military forces in
the Colonies, the errors committed by Ministers with
respect to the Sinking Fund, and the delusion thereby
created—a delusion only recently renamed by the candid
declaration of the Right Hon. Secretary opposite. He did
not wish to see the Treasury of this country with a less
surplus than one million or a million and a half; but if the
Right Hon. Gentlemen were proceeding in an erroneous
career, it was time for them to stop, to think what had
been done with an immense establishment last year, and
what was to be done with h this. He called upon his
gajezty'll Aliaiattro to weigia a ;nova why they sought to

maintain an establishment so eltortnous as that for which
they now asked, When, in 1792, ntimore than 36,000 men
were required for the service of the country. Even at the
present moment, Ireland was garrisoned by 30,000 men,
-24,000 of whom were paid out of the Treasury of England,
and the remainder from the resources of Ireland. He
asked the House to call upon his Majesty's Ministers to de-
dare, why the prodigious accession of military and nava!
force was considered necessary. For his part lie believed
the state of the country was not such as the Right Hon.
Gentleman had described it. He (Mr. Hume) looked upon
the energies of the country with as favourable an eye as
any Member in the House, • but he thought it altogether
monstrous to ask for so great an addition to those energies
Under existing circumstances. Why were 6,000 men con-.
sidered necessary for the Colonies alone ? Why, but be-
cause we sought to maintain the Canadas, garrisoned un-
der a Government which they equally hated and despised.
From what he had seen of the Finance Committe, he was
bound to say that every thing with respect to it appeared
exceedingly fair. But he (Me. Hume) must revert to the
topic immediately under the consideration of the House,
and ask upon what grounds this great military increase
was sought, when, in 1823, it was found that so much
smaller a force was necessary; although the whole of Eu-
rope was at that time in a convulsive state, and many of
our troops were stationed in France and in Spain. If so
comparatively small a number were deemed sufficient then.
England had a right to ask, and to expect an answer,
why instead of reducing the sixty-eight thousand, that
force was sought to be augmented? Although the country
had now a military chief, he hoped that chief would see
and feel that England was essentially a civil, and not a mi-
litary government—that its military Government was a
system which had grown out of unfortunate circumstances,
and of a long war, in which we had been engaged. If we
were to support a military government, on the same scale,
with other nations, and to attempt to cope with despots who
depended upon no other security, our finances must at once
break down. He hoped the Noble Duke at the head of the
Administration, and who had reached to higher honours
and to greater renown in war, than almost any other indi-
vidual, would now direct his attention to those trophies
which he might gain in peace—that he would look to
England as to a country, one-half of whose population was
in poverty and distress, where crime and misery were un -
happily but too common, and that he would seek to obtain
those far better laurels, which might be his, by making a
people flourishing, contented, and happy. This he might
do by merely reducing the taxes—and to do this was within
his power. Let him see the effects, or at least let him try
the experiment. If, like the Romans of old, we could
get our tributaries to fill our pockets, a lavish expen-
diture of money might perhaps be pardonable ; but when
the sums to be expended were drained from these of our
own country, we should indeed pause before we went too far.
In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, it was the duty of the Go-
vernment to reduce 20,000, or at least 10,000 men, instead
of seeming to increase our present military force. Even it
the Government reduced ten regiments, and draughted them
into others, it would be doing something ; and this surely
might be done, for the Noble Lord himself, in 1817, had
said, that it would be quite as well to increase regiments to
800 or 900 men, from 500 to 600, as to add au additional
number of regiments. He hoped the Noble Lord would
consider what he had then said, and not depart from his
opinion now. In conclusion, he (Mr. Hume) would pro-
pose, that " instead of 90,000, the figures 80,000 be
inserted."

Sir JAMES MACDONALD felt himself bound to state,
that as long as be saw arrayed at the same side of the House
men who differed so materially on points—not merely of
party politics, but on real and substantial grounds—as long
as he saw one portion of the Government sitting by the
side of another, and charged by that other with conduct the
grossest and the basest towards the SoVereign and towards
the country, and that the charge so made remained com-
pletely unrefuted—so long as he saw such a spectacle before
him, it would be. impossible for him to support them
under any circumstances. These oEservations he considered
necessary before he alluded to the matter under discussion in
the House. It appeared to him to be not a little strange to ask
for an addition to the military force of the country, when the.
Government themselves stated that it was -not intended to
saddle the country to the full extent of the demand .; and
when there had been expressed a hope that there might be
a reduction, made in consequence of the labours of the. Fi-
nance Committee, which was now sitting .under most
favourable auspices. No reason for tbis.proposed addition
had been yet stated to the House. The Right Hon. the
Secretary of State had informed the Worthy Alderman,
that he had lost his opportunity of making his complaint,
which, ought to have been made yesterday-rnow be (Sir J.
Macdonald) would observe that the. orportunity of yester-
day arose out of a petition upon a Malt Bill, and that of to-
day out of an important question as to a grant of money.
With reference to the Administrations,' the.past and the
present, by which it had been. resolved to carry the Finance
Committee into effect, many matters might, with much
propriety, be left in their hands ; but it would be, he con-
aidered, wrong in the House to .confine itself altogether to
their arrangement. It was true tbata reduction of the esti:.
Mates had been made to the extent of 1,100,0001., and al-
though he was far from saying that this sum was sufficient to
sa tisfythe House, he acceptedit as some proof thattheGovern-
went was in earnest in its intention of retrenchment. Such
as it was, it took away some portion of the sting of the
Worthy Alderman, who had stated somewhat against his
belief of the beneficial views of this Finance Committee.

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN explained.
Sir J. MACDONALD expressed his hope that the Fi-
nance Committee would resolutely determine to do its duty,
and the most beneficial results might be expected.
Lord PALMERSTON wished to say a few words with re-
ference to some of the observations made by Gentlemen on
the other side. The Mutiny Bill recited a force, the
greatest that could be brought into this country at once;
but it should be remembered that a great portion of our
force was always abroad, and therefore was estimated as
greater than it could ever be. If the Crown wished to
disband any portion of that force, no one could suppose it
would be discouraged from so doing, because the forca was
larger than the amount mentioned in the Mutiny Bill
This would have no effect upon the Crown, or upon the
House in advising the Crown. If the course which hc,
(Lord Palmerston) pursued, left the opinion of the House
just the same as if the vote were for six months only, then
the measure might not, be, disputed. The Hon. Meniber
for Aberdeen had been arguing throughout as if the vote
were for six mouths, and if, therefore, the proposition bad
been for six months instead of for twelve, his argument
would have been just the same. The Hon. Member had
complained of him (Lord Palmerston) with reference to
the Colonial arrangement.

Mr. HUME rose to explain.
Lord PALMERSTON observed that the Hon. Gentle-
man would have an opportunity of saying what be pleased
when he (Lord Palmerston) had sat down—this course
would be much more convenient and decorous. The lion.
Member had stated his wish that there should be a reduc-
tion of 10,000 men now, of IU,OOO more in six months,
and so en, perhaps without end ; and he had referred to
the state of our military and naval force in 1823, as a
proof of the policy of his argument. But the House
should bear in mind, that in 1823 our military force had
been considerably brought down from that which it had
previously been. In 1821 and 1822 it tad been much
larger. At length an augmentation of force was made, on
the principle, that over and above the force absolutely ne-
cessary, there should be a surplus body of 3,000 men ready
for any emergency. It was by having these surplus 5,000
men, we were enabled so promptly to send that number to
Portugal. It was asked, why, if he intended making a
reduction of 5,000 men, he did not chi it by regiments
instead of by privates? He would tell them why he
did not. By reducing the 3,000 privates there was
a saving of 110,0001., and by doing it by regiments
or battalions, the saving would, perhaps, be twenty
or thirty thousand pounds more. The way in which it
would be done on the first plan would be, nut by any
actual discharge of men,
but by diminishing the activity
of the recruiting departments, and the saving would be a
clear saving, as no
pensions or half-pay would be given, no
man being discharged. Besides, there would be the great
advantage of preserving the organization or skeleton of the
army, thus leaving them at liberty to increase the number
of the army without inconvenience. Every military man
must be aware of the difference in the efficiency of a newly
raised regiment and au old regiment increased in number.
• Besides, a reduction by battalions would fall—by the
manner in which regiments are now divided, six companies
going abroad, and four staying at home as a depot—upon
that part alone of the regiment which was left as a reserve
in England. If there were any other objections to the
vote, he was perfectly ready either to discuss them, and the
amount necessary, now, or at a later period sif the Session.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that he could not understand
why, taking a vote for six mouths, it was objected to take
at the same time a Mutiny Bill for six months.
Mr. THOMPSON wished before he consented to the
vote, to haVe, he would not say a pledge or guarantee, but
some understanding from the Noble Lord opposite, that the
House should not be pledged hereafter to this specific
number of 90,000 men, but that some reduction would
be proposed by his Majesty's Government. He thought
this the more necessary, as • they were first referred
from the Government to the Finance Committee,
and then from the Finance Committee to the GoVernment,
so that he thought it very probable that the public would;
holm these two stool", fall to the grotwd. gsplingtioui

had-of-late been very- much in fashion; but he should have
wished that each Right Honourable Gentleman had been
left to explain for. himself, and not for his .colleagues.
Since he had heard the Noble Lord explain the manner in
which he meant to make the reduction in the army, be
had little hope of amendment. The Noble Lord had asked
them bow they could reduce the troops.- . The Hon: Mem-
ber for Wareham had said to him, ". pacify. -Ireland"—
(Hear)--and then he would not want 15,000- or 20,00
men there ; another Hon. Member had said, quiet Canada,
and then you will riot want 5,000 men . there ; and he
(Mr. Thompson) could akl another answer, which was,
make the Colonies keep thernielies, or abandon them.—
(Hear, bear.)—Then we should. not want,this immense
number of troops foe' our Colonies. Ireland, the' largest
of them, for he' supposed be might call it :a colony,: as it
was certainly as misgoverned as any we hati=-(allitigh)--z-
-gave ut the most expense of any, sehilst She ought to give
us the least. He did not wish to oppoee this grant, if he
could receive an assurance of an effectual reduction being
made; but if it were not given, he should be obliged to
vote for the amendment of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen-
Colonel DAVIES said, that the . depot companies ab-
sorbed 11,414 men, who were frittered away 'in places
where they were not wanted. The Noble Lord had said,
would they have them reduce regiments, and thus lessen
the prime. of the army, and deprive theMselves' of a nu-
cleus round which to collect new.troops. But, surely out
of 120 battalions we now had, some twenty or thirty
might be taken away, without depriving ourselves of the
means of increasing the army with effect. By that Means
they would save ail the expense of the Staff.
Mr. MONCK complained of the large amounts of
Widows' Pensions. If we adopted the practice of the
French service, of not suffering the officers to marry, with-
out they were able to make a settlement on their wives
equal to the amount of their pay, we should effect an im-
mense saving in that point alone. He did not wish to
break our present engagements, but he thought the Com-
mittee might look at this as a prospective measure.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN advocated the plan of preserv-
ing the fl`erne of our arthy, -and not reducing it by regi-
ments. He verily believed if, in 1793, instead of sending
abroad the miserable driblets of troops, which we were,
from the state of our army, obliged to do, we had been able
as now, to send a larger- body, the war would have been
much earlier terminated, 'and thus a great part bf the debt
perhaps saved.
Mr. A. DAWSON compared' the House to a foolish
gentleman, who decided upon what his establishment
should be witl out knowing. what would be the probable
amount of his income..
Mr. HUME said, that they were going to lay out
125,000/.' without having a shilling in their pockets, and.
without the probability of having a shilling to spare, for
the Sinking Fund must be granted to be a mere farce, and
lie hoped the Committee would not allow it to be carried
on any longer. It was absurd nonsense—he begged par-
don for using the word..-to talk of such a thing, and as
there were many gentlemen in the Coinmittee who had
. sense enough to see that it was, he hoped' the country
would no longer be insulted by it. With respect to the
system of funding Exchequer Bills, he thought nothing
could be more absurd ; last year wohad lost 40 per cent.
by funding Exchequer Bills. We had paid 4/. 4s. 6d. per
cent. to fund Exchequer Bills that had, been issued to pay
off a debt of 4 per cent. If he saw the slightest chance of
reduction, even of 10,000 men, he should not divide the
Committee, but no such hope could be entertained. If
any man in the House was anxious to see Ireland pacified,
he should vote for a reduction of our erns), by 30,000 men
and se compel Ministers to make the Irish people their
friends ; for, so long as Ministers were enabled to keep up
an army in Ireland, so long would that colony be subject
to misrule. He should call it a colony, for a colony it was
as much as Janiaica or any other of our West India
Islands, cud not a -.portion of the United Kingdom.
Mr. CALCRAFT defended himself from the insinuation
of having gone-out of his way to compliment Ministers;
and also against the charge of having concurred in keeping
up the delusion of a Sinking Fund, when no such thing
was in existence; The Sinking Fund, hoviever, must be
maintained. As the law stood, whether there were a stir-
plus or not, we Were as much bound to keep up the Sink-
ing Fund- as any other portion of our expenditure. He
confessed he bad the highest expectations of benefit to the
country from the Goverument of the Duke of Wellington,
who he considered to be snore likely to effect-reformations
in the expenditure of the country than any other man in
existence, save one—a Noble Friend of his. (Hear, bear.)
Objections had been taken to the Noble Duke's Govern-
ment, as a military Government; but it was hardly neeese
• nary to nay, that there wallet the slightest ground far sup-,
posing that the Duke of Wellington would eager his a:IW..
tary character. to-interfere with his official civil duties.
(Hear, hear.), -Therhad tried a Civil—a. very civilsnen••••
and they found he would not do. (A laugh.) Now they
hadone of a very different character, who, he was sure,
would carry on .the business of the. country with 'success.
The Committee then divided, when there were.-
For the Grant : • 106
Against
.it
16
Majority —9o
On our re-admission to. the gallery we found they Com-
mittee sitting. A few more items were egreed.to, but the
noise caused by the re-admission of strangers `prevented ear
hearing the amount or nature of them.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Sir 11. HARDINGE rose to move the Ordnance Esti-
mates,. but owing to the continuance of the noise -above
referred to, the Hon. Member was inaudible in the gallery.
We understood him to say, that it VIM not his intention
to propose a vote for the general Estimates of the year, but
merely for one .half. He might be permitted to state, per-
haps, that the estimates to be laid before Parliament were
those which had actually been prepared by his predecessor.
For one thing he could pledge himself, that net new item of
expenditure would be undertaken by the Board of Ordnance,
until a Report from the Finance Committee should have been
received ; and before which Committee the accounts of the
Ordnance, in common with those of the other public de-
partment?, would be laid.—(Hear, hear.) Concurrence
in the present vote would bind no Hon. Member to the
support of the whole Estimate. He should, therefore,
without detaining the House further, move that there be
granted to his Majesty a sum not exceeding 783,5981. on
account of the expenditure of the Ordnance Department
for the year 1828. • .
Mr. HUME did not rise for the purpose of opposing the
vote, but merely to beg, that in suffering it to pass he
might not be considered as agreeing to the Estimates at
large.

Mr. CALCRAFT bore testimony to the great reform•
effected by the Duke of Wellington, when at the bead of
the Ordnance Department.
Sir. H.. HARDINGE had already said that that was not
the moment for explanation, but he trusted he might be
allowed to confirm the statement of the Hon. Gentleman

who had just sat down, respecting the raietion;efiected
in, the Ordnance Department by the Duke of Wellington.
Since 1820, when the Noble Duke was placed at the head

of the Ordnance Department, reduction; had been made

(lescosmapnarianLtuhnetchtahrgane f2o3rol,ol3oo2ol.,witthhetgrehataofterlBpo27Lto: non;
which bad been made, not by any diminution of our force,
but by reductions in our civil establishment.—(Hear, from
Mr. Hume.) By the reduction -of 240 clerks, a saving
had resulted of 47,0001. annually. The military corps of
the Ordnance Department had been increased by 700 men.
Other additions had been found necessary by the Noble

Duke to render the department more effeciive; amounting
-together to 91,000/, which, deducted, as it ought from the
saving'of 230,000/. already mentioned, would chew a reduc-
tion
the of een
Ordnancesed Department u r inegtahre iDukeet to
of
the amount Wellington's management
of ofismoot

perseverance in the system
of economy,
•
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thanked the Hon. and Gallant Officer fur
st
oh
lel sec
fir etrhee eNt i
ot ibelies mDpurkoen ee
.
sty laudably begun, what hopes might not the
country indulge? He also thanked the Hon. and Gallant
Officer for confirming that, which he was sure the Com-
mittee had Previously felt, namely, that he (Mr. Hunie)
had been always right.—(A laugh.) •
u u nßydabpy him upon the predeces-
erse
The vote was then agreed to, and the House resumed.
The Report WAS brought up, and ordered to be received on

Monday.
rue antuittee of Ways and Means was postponed to
holiday nest.
The Orders of the Day having been disposed of, the
House adjourned at Ten o'Clock.

, ---=
SNoW S'FORM.—A neavy snow-storm came
on here yesterday morning, about six o'clock, and
during a considerable part of the day, the
wind blowing
almost a hurricane from the south and south-west. We
have seldom„een the snog fall inure thickly, or drift with
rapidity
and violence; and we fear we shall hear
from the mountain districts of the North. In
bgardeaatecr co du
were almost itnpas...-"le. Up to the time of
a few hours, the high ways were literally blocked up; even
-
of Thursday evening,
paragraph, the Newcastle, Glasgow, mid Edin.
have not arrived, but aro • .
ibo,uvuuoririi.gt.siheitinritneatatriliiii y
fine, and little snow fell (hiring the night, which was calla.
expected, as the weather is now suicide*
The storm appears to have been general. IA alin parts.
of the Portpatrick Road, the snow is immensely deep ; and
still deeper, we presume, in the lines of road which are yet
blocked up..• Glasgow Courier.

Anglr.
Brazil
lun
'Genet
.Mexi<
Ilalpt
Hiber
Provit

n4i.k
cwiso
Gov.
LtevA
Royal
Grand
City I
RAW

ermil

Ilig 1
while

give
of v

in ti
fills.
appr
easil

Gaz

SORE
the

inair
with
The
mak

to

mod
betw
batu

wave
the
burio

ing t
whic
of u
the

OWN.
path]
will

prep.
B

liensi

singt
after
bad
the b

expel
is ao

Jame
have
Calri
fessic
coed

has r

act p
Aunt
this,l

imne

Ti
just ;

just,
Yrsi

T 1
matte

►uld have
had bmn
►lleaguea.
►anncr in

uounts
cc of the
rry, with-
ieir wives,

et an int-
it to
the Corn-

preserv-
t by regi-
f sending
We Were,
been able
have been
I the debt.

a foolish
blishnient
prohabts

) lay out

kets, and
spare, for
arse, and
)e carried
;ged par-
g, and as
who had
country
to the:
nothing
per cent.
. 6d. pit
3cl to pay
:haute of
ivide the

fined. IE
pacified,.
000 men

ple their
) keep up
subject
ny it was
est Indio.
gdom.

iinuatien,
linisters
keeping
►ch thin
must be
are a eur-
,he Sink-
ire. He
!fit to the
oiling ton,
ormationi,
r man in

sr, bear. )
Govern-
Ily neces-
for sup-
his ,
it dtities.
it man---
vow they
✓aa sure,

11~ccL8:+.

ie Cum-
, but the
rated eat

Lee Esti-
le above
gallery.
intention
rear, but
ate, per-
ent were
lecessor.
r item of
rdnanre,
ave been
is of the
üblic de-

curreuce
T to the
lerefore,
there be
1981. oo
,artruent

sing the
pm be
hates at

refotui.
head of

was not
tight be
ntleman
effected
lington.
:be head
n made
7) to no
rtion of
tr force,

ir, from

saving
corps of
PO men.
Noble
ounting
iem the
redue-
igernent
9,0001.

icer fuC
•edecea-
ayatem
not the
Gallant
e Corn-
flume)

sumeei.
ived oa

pneti to

of, the

cam E
rtinued
lowing
. We
ft with
1.11 hear
th. In

in►a of
: Edin-
mit are
P.dalY
cairn.
Parts - -
; and
Ire yet.
.1;