The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-30 00:00:00

. _
laaked as ate was by the Right Hon. Baronet.afthe head of
her Majesty's Coveribnent. The Right Hon. Baronet de.
scribed the prisons throughout the country for the incarcera-
tion of prisoners to be miserable places, mere black-holes, unfit
for human beings to be placed in. He had himself been much
infuse/ad by the statement of the Right Hen. Baronet,
*ugh he knew that the prison at Bristol was net such a one
is had been described. Formerly the evil was that the debtor
was entirely at the mercy of the creditor, 'ovv they had
„gone as far wrong the other way by placing th for at the
mercy of the debtor. The change had been too violent and
sudden in its operation. Meetings had been held in the prin-
cipal towns in England relative to this clause, and they had
been unanimomein condemning it. Mr. Commissioner Fane
and Mr. Commissioner Evans had stated that it would aford a
aefage to all the rogues of the country. It was calculated
that previous to the operation of this clause fifty
millioin sterling were annually lost by insolvents, and
Ile thought it would be difficult to calculate what would be the
Anount of increase on that sum, if the further operation of that
elanse were allowed. In fact every debt under 201. was looked
upon as a del* of honour, and the courts rather presented a point
of attraction to debtors, as affording them an easy mode of
cheating their creditors. It was strange doctrine to urge in its
tour, that it would be the means of putting an end to credit.
He did not know how a commercial country like this could do
without the slatem of credit. He admitted that credit was
liable to abase, but what was there that was not liable to abuse?
Tx hey. protected the credit of the wealthy man, and he saw no
reason why they should not protect the poor man equally.
The; gave every facilitr to the wholesale trader for the recovery
of his debts, but they turned their back upon the retail dealer.
The creditor whose debt amounts to 211. might say with some
effete to his debtor, " pay me the 211. you owe me." But
if the debt happened to be 191., the debtor might laugh in his
flee. He should like the onourable Baronet to define the
difference between the two. Was he to be told that the
man who was in debt 211. ought to be imprisoned, and that he
whose debts amounted only to 191. should be allowed to escape
with ieepueity ? It was urged that the total absence of credit
-would be conducive to the welfare and well-being of the
woskiitg dames ; but he denied this. It was, in his opinion,
highly essential that the labourer, be he manufacturing or
agsieultnral, should be allowed to have credit, and if they re-
fused it to him his cup of misery would be full. He con-
sidered the an ought to be cared for as well as the rich.
It was knowPrrt3this country was deteriorating into a vitieted
state), and the effects of the Bill had been described El a
writer of the present day as having disseminated a spirit of
mistrust ift.. both public and private life, and, in the end, it
had so enervated the energies of the people, that the popula-
tion had been led into a spawn of self-abandonment
as regarded running into debt. It was a notorious fact that
seven-tenths of the people anticipated their incomes. It was
at:eaten to suppose that the extravagant expenditure of the reek-
lees could be hindered, or that this class would be prevented
from incOming debt, when there were so many tradesmen
vailllng to give them credit, by any such measure as Ole 20/.
clause. There was no doubt that among tradespeople there
were litany intliiiduals who would not encourage extravagant
expenditure or the incurring of debt, but he would quote the
language of the immortal bard
.Shakespere, which would show
that all would not be guided by similar rules :
" Dust thee think, because thou'rt virtuous,
There shall be no more cakes and ale? Ay, by St. Anne,
And ginger shall be hot i' th' mouth, too."
. Honesty might be found in fus'tian, and often was discovered
amongst the lowest classes, in whom it had sometimes been
thought it was not always to be found. Under these circum-
stance!, then, held ask, what protection was it intended to
give tradesmen ? 'fir'already every protection had been taken
from them. The tradesman must he protected, and in order to
this, the House should first make an inquiry, and that was all
he now asked. The Honourable Member then read
a paper, in which it was stated that a tradesman
had bees ruined by giving credit in small sums, besides hav-
ing To pay the income-tax, for which the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had his hand in his pocket. In fact, if any tradesman
who was obliged to give credit in sums up to 2ul. were not
ekeopt from the income-tax, he could never get on. He held
in Ms hand a list of many unsuccessful tradesmen, but he would
not weary the House with it ; he would merely say this, that
tratteemen were driven to dischafge their workmen and to re-
state their expenses. The nature of eases tried in small
,marts, and he hail several in point, was this—a small debt was
due from some nieusen to a tradesman, and being desirous to re-
cover it, imprisonment being abolished, the sheriff was put
into the debtor's house. A relation, the landlord, or some
pereou as a,,estance, claimed the goods, an action was threat-
mined, anti the sheriff was withdrawn. in nine cases out of tea
they would find that the sheriff was wiihdrawn',Jaecause the
creslitoe preferred submitting to the first loss, raf4r than in-
volving himself or others in trouble, which would be entailed
upon him by t king the case before a jury. There was
lITM a woman named Goole, aged ninety, confined in
Breaseel gaol for a debt of 24/., and who had small
eurne owing to her, under 201., more than sufficient to
cover the debt for which she was incarcerate:l By the opera-
tlun of the Act. the fees to officers in small courts were mate-
*ally diminished, and they deficiencies in their salaries had to
&tree out of the Consolidated Fund. The aggregate annual
salaries of four clerks, in the Southwark Court of Requests,
was 2.2-114. 10s., which was created by fees. During the first
six ”boatbs after the Act came into operation, there was a de-
ficieney of 71(3/. its. 4d.. ti 4 that in twelve months a deficiency
of .14,432/. 16s. Sd. woulsl be creited in their usual emolu-
meets, whichtwould have to be made good out of the Conse.
Mated FIIII(1. And as a Committee of that House appeared to
tiv? nis9t fitting tribunal to inquire into the evils of which
he cotalleinad—at once the mode most dignified fur the House,
add naoet osngenial to the poor and oppressed tradesman, he
treeeeel the Right Hon. Baronet would grant the inquiry with-
out hesitation. If, however, the Government should object to
the appointment of the Committee, he should take the sense
of the House on the expediency of his proposition, and press
the matter to a division.
Jr. KEMBLE briefly seconded the motion.
Set J. GRAHAM said if he understood the Hon. Gentle-
man, who bad introduced the motion, aright, the object sought
to be accomplished by the Committee was how the provisions
of the Act, pus-ed last session, respecting small debts', had ope-
rated open teadefenen. If that was the object sought to be
obtained, then he did not see any good that would result from
it, as certain of the evils complained of had commanded the at-
tention
of a Noble Lord of high legal acquirements (the Lord
Oaancellor); and he had prepared a 11111 on the subject,
which had been brought into the other House of Parliament.
The Hon. Gentleman said that his object was not to repeal the
law of, last session, but to effect an improvement in it. He
(Sir James Graham) rejoiced at it, as he believed nothing
we'll exhibit such a want of sympathy with and indifference to
the interests of the working classes as the reenactment of im-
prisonment for small debts. The measure had, upon the
worked well. No complaints had been made about
it front the great body of the people—the complaint had issued
from the tradesmen who considered themselves injured by it,
het who, he might remark, had the remedy in a great measure is
their own hands—the withholding of credit.—Hear, hear.)
He was willing, however, to admit that there were defects in
the Aot of last session, but he denied that it was what
ties Hee. Member opposite (Mr. H. Berkeley) had described
is—a piece of crude legislation. To no measure introduced
daring the last 20 years had so much attention been paid, or
more pains bestowed. The charge of indecent haste, or party
legislation was, therefore, net at all applicable to the question.
No arguments could have been adduced that were not
then fully heard upon this question ; anti when he heard the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman, he expected to have heard him
eoesclude with some such motion as a proposition for the re-
peal of the Act of last session. His (Sir J. Graham's) own
opinion was that the present Bill was not sufficiently stringent
or summary against debtors to the amoent of 201. The Lord
Chancellor had assured him that he had given his most earnest
Attention to the Government Bill, and in a very few days he
hoped it would be laid before the House. Under these cir-
cumstances he hoped the House would suspend its opinion upon
the subject till ilk heard more of it.—( Hear.) He admitted
last session that this Bill required some amendment and al-
terations ; and having made that admission, he did hope the
Montle would wait until the Bill came before it in an amended
form.
Mr. PARKER slid he had but very few observations to
make. Ile hoped the system of imprisonment would not be
revived, and thought the declaration of the Right Hon. Baronet
would be satisfactory to the House. The Bill contained a very
stringent clause, which, in his opinion, would have prevented
the occurrence of some of the evils complained ef, had it been
acted upr at the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Courts.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS regretted that the Committee was not
to be appointed, because had there been a Committee the
small tradesmen, who complained of the Bill, would have had an
opportunity of stating to the House what were the real and
practical difficulties they suffered.
Mr. HAWES said he did not wish to revive the oppression
on the debtor which had been formerly practised. He thought
the only effect of appointing the proposed Committee would be
to cushion the measure coming down from the other House of
Parliament. The cotintry was very anxious for an improve-
Anent in the measure of last session, and the appointment
of a Committee now would only impede that desirable im-
roveinent. He thought, therefore, that Hon. Members on
his own side of tlep House ought not to press the motion.—
( Hear, hear.) As to raising a debate upon the worn-out
question of imprisonment for debt, he had thought every thing
that could be said upon it hail been said long ago. The Hon.
Member concluded by saying, he hoped the Hon. Mover would
;clot press his motion.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the alteration of im-
prisamnent for debt upon final process under 20/. had been
made because of the miseries which debtors had suffered under
the old law. He was now willing to believe from the ex-
perience he had of the present law, that the creditor was not
suffleiently7 protected, and if any further protection could be
given to him it would be most desirable; at the same time he
would be most eautieus of placing in the hands of the creditor '
any arbitrary power. He hoped the Hon. Member would
-withdraw his motion. In case the measure devised in the House
of Lord. did not give the desired protection to the creditor, he
would do all in his power to make it do so.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. SPOONER. hoped the Hon. Gentleman would with.
draw his metier],
Mr. BERKELEY said, he thought he could not do less
than withdraw his motion, after what had been said by the So-
licitor-General, and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
of State for the Home Department. He would leave the mat-
ter in the hands of the Government, with the most perfect
coutidence of the result.
Colonel RAWDON said there were some hundreds of
persons confined in prisons in Ireland, for small debts, and he
hoped the provisions ef the Bill would be extended to that
country.
This motion was then withdrawn.
IRISH CHURCH-RATES.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY moved that the House resolve
itself into a Committee, to take into consideration the Act 17
and 18 Car. 2, e. 7, intituled " An Act for provision of Ali-
eisters in Cities and Corporate Towns, and making the church
ef Se. Andrews, iwnitthheasvuiburbs of the city of Dublin, presen-
tative for ever." to the repeal of so much thereof
as relates to the payment
at oelheministers in corporate towns in
lretand. Qs looking
of
Cork,
of Ireland for 1841, he
IbUnd that in the City , the Catholics of Ireland were
in the ratio of six and a half
to
Meters' money roiled there amouorintede, while the amount of mi-
to no less than 12,000/.
It was s,r the removal of a source of so much acrimony
ketertburnine, that he now solicited the and
titouae, for the removal of a burthe h interposition of the
Boman Catholics but avast proportionapproached this
of Ireland.
noxious not only to the
of
findingltte finding enhetitute—
tat substitute he would seek in the revennes of
Iglurch ; and in making that suggestion he
to the insinuation that such a measure would dsivneortt the
perty of the Protestant Church in Ireland to other and foreignl-
purposes. This arrangement would be at once satisfactory to
the Roman Catholics, and certainly not unjust to the Pro-
testants of the country. He would not detain the house by
aety further observations, trusting that the spirit which had a
late been evinced by the Government would be carried out in
the present advantageous opportunity.
Sir IL W. WI itlti)N seconded the motion.
St T. FREMANTLE did full justice to the tore and spirit
in which the Hon. Member for Cork had brought forward hiss
recolution, and admitted to the full the obnoxious character of
the tax. But while the Government were impressed is ith that
conviction, and had submitted the subject to a rigid investiga-
tion as well as a most anxious consideration, they had
felt the extreme difficulty of removing these imposts,
de-
more
to.ifegfed or
especialk as no substitute could he either s „
-hoed. The ease was not quite so bad as the Hon. Gentleman
had represented it to be. A similar tax prevailed at Edin-
burgh a,nd elsewhere. He hoped, under the circumstances,
the Hon. avid Learned Gentleman would withdraw his motion,
Mr. ROCHE thought the Government was rcally bound to