The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-11 00:00:00

creation who laboured twelve or fourteen hours a day?
—(Hear, heaf::) What recreation could -there be for
persons who Went to their work at six in the morning,
and never left it until half-past seven at night?---(Hear,
hear.) Where and how was this recreation to be ob-
tained ?—(Hear, hear.) Those who supported the
Noble Lord were charged with pandering to the passions
of the people. Were not those who made this charge
guilty of something like hypocrisy when they talked of
the necessity of administering to the healthy recreation
of the people ?—(Hear, hear.) Throughout the whole
of that discussion, there had been a contrariety
of statement, a variety of allegation which was
excessively amusing, and he might say mysterious. On
the one hand, it was stated that these factories were a
kind of earthly paradise ; on the other, that they were
the receptacles of reeking disease and oppression. He
knew that the master manufacturers of this country
formed a body who were to be highly valued for their
general benevolence ; but, on the other hand, he could
not turn away from te statement made on the part of
the operatives. He supposed that most Hon. Gentle-
man had seen the deputations of operatives which had
come from Manchester and Yorkshire. The very first
question which he (Mr. Bernal) had put to these depu-
tations was, "Are you prepared to take the chance of an
abatement of wages.?" They replied, "We are." He
asked them whether the probability of a reduction of
wages had been fairly laid before the artisans, and
the reply was in the affirmative.—(Hear, hear.)
When he had an interview with one of those deputes
tions, he asked them, were they prepared to give up a
portion of their earnings for those shorter hours ? Their
answer was, " Yes, we will—the probable deduction of
wages could not be greater than what we lose by the in-
terruption of our domestic comforts. Besides, we have
to pay for washing, ironing, and scouring, which our
wives are not able to do."—(Hear, hear.) He could not
admit that any person supporting the proposition of the
Noble Lord was pandering to the passions of the people.
(Checrs.) It was impossible to deal with men and wo-
men upon the strict principles of political economy as
laid down in books.—(Hear, hear.) Men could not be
dealt Aith as the-pieces upon a chess-board.—(Cheers
and laughter.) This question should be dealt with by
the dictates of common sense.—(Laughter.) He would
ask whether the operatives of Manchester and the rest
of Lancashire were not able to judge of their own inte-
rests ?—(Hear.) Suppose you were to give a so-bye to
this question, would there not be still a sore in the minds
of the people? If the go-bye were given to the question,
' would not the feeling of the people be that the House
of Commons did not represent the feelings nor the in-
terests of the working classes.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) had
referred to Mr. Horner's statement respecting the state
of manufactures in Switzerland, where there were fac-
tories in which people worked fourteen or sixteen hours.
But why not refer to Massachusets ?—(Cheers.) Why
not to other places where there was no limitation to
hours oflabour?—(Cheers.) If the Right Hon. Baronet
meant his argument to be valid, he ought to abandon
his Bill altogether.—(Cheers.) With all the research of
the Right Hon. Baronet, he would ask whether he did
not find that the labour of twelve hours was more than
women were capable' of enduring ? The surgeons
examined before the Commission declared that they
thought ten hours more than the period during which
women could continue to labour in the factories.—(Hear,
hear.) He would not trouble the House by referring to
particular points of the evidence, such as the condition
of women who were on the point of parturition.—(llear,
hear.) There had been reference, in the course of the
debate, to the hard labour which was suffered by
women in the agricultural districts. But it was
not to be denied that, in agricultural labour,
women were not employed, except upon extraordinary
occasions, more than eight hours.—(Hear, hear.) The '
reports upon the subject of factories showed that life
was shortened by in-door employment.—(Hear, hear.)
It was rare to see an old man in a factory. It was rarely
seen that a man lived long enough in factory employ..
ment to be able to use spectacles.—(Cheers and a
laugh.) This was a question of principle upon which
he must insist that all personal and party feelings ought
to give way, and he hoped that the clause, having once
been introduced, would never be abandoned,
Mr. G. KNIGHT considered the question so peculiar
and so important, as to require the deepest consideration
of the House. He had carefully revolved in his mind
the provisions of the with a sincere desire so to
fashion it that it should secure the true interests of the
working classes. From all that he had been able to
learn on this subject—in despite of the arguments of the
Noble Lord the Member for London—he had come to
the conclusion that we should not be damaged in
the foreign market by accepting the clause of
the Nobl Lord the Member for Dorsetshire.
His conviction was that the measure of the Noble Lord
would not only lead to a reduction of wages, but would
strike at the root of employment, and lead to the
destruction of the trade. They all recollected the dis-
tress and destitution which had been produced within
the last three or four years by the mills working short
time. If the mills should work short time permanently,
how would it be possible for the people to live?—(Hear,
hear.) If the trade of the country should be permanently
lost, the depression would be permanent also. In a short
time after a Ten Hours' Bill should be passed they would
see those labourers who were now most anxious for the
passing of such a measure tugging and tearing at each
other for the purpose of procuring employment. He had
received letters from persons who were residing in the
manufacturing districts, and who were conversant with
the feelings of the workmen in those districts. The
writers of those letters stated, that in their opinion the
national prosperity would be seriously endangered by a
Ten Hours' Bill. All those who were best informed on
the subject dreaded the introduction of such a measure.
The Government Bill took care of the children, and that
was all that was necessary. He thought the present
discussion would do much good, by attracting public
attention to the real merits of the question. It would
hare been much more agreeable to him to have supported
the motion of the Noble Lord ; and it was with great
regret that he felt himself bound to oppose it. But be-
lieving, as he did, that it would be most for the benefit
of the country that the motion of the Noble Lord should
be rejected, he felt bound to vote against it,—(lronical
cheering.)
Mr. C. BULLER said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Nottingham had exhibited a most asto-
nishing instance of forgetfulness.—(Cheers and laughter.)
He had forgotten the reasons which had induced him to
give no less than three votes in support of the measure of
the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman
had not found out any new argument or new fact. It
appears that all that was required was that his mind re-
quired some time for the arguments to be absorbed.—(A
laugh.) The lion. Gentleman said that the great
reason why he had changed kis mind was that he had
had time since he had given his last three votes to get
sober.--(Cheers and laughter.) Now he must say that
such a case of habitual and continued intoxication—.
(Laughter)—lasting through three several votes, given
at an interval of a week from each other—such
continued and habitual intoxication he had never
before heard confessed to the House—(Laughter)—
and considering how plain the arguments were which
had convinced the Hon. Gentleman, and how completely
the Hon. Gentleman's mind had been closed against
them until that evening, he could not but come to the
conclusion, that the Hon. Gentleman must have been
very bad indeed.—(Roars of laughter.) But he did not
wish to divert the attention of the House to personal
matters. His own speeches on former occasions had
been much commented on and much misrepresented,
but he did not desire to draw the attention of the House
to a personal matter, when they were discussing a great
national principle, the magnitude and importance of
which, it was impossible to overrate—(Cheers)—and to
waste their time by diverting their attention
to petty and paltry personalities.—(Cheers.) This ques-
tion had been greatly prejudiced by the introduction
of personal allusions and arguments. Since he had given
his vote when they had last discussed this question, he
had seen some of the largest master manufacturers of the
country. There was a painful impression upon his mind
that the vehement opposition of that class arose not
so much from a dread or a dislike of the measure itself,
as a feeling of' indignation at certain statements which
had been made, and which were injurious to the cha-
racter of the master manufacturers of the country,—
(Hear, hear.) He had never dwelt on those statements
NthoabtlethLosoerdstatthee.
He did not dispute the
as a justification for his vote.
and exceptional
cases Member for Dorsetshire. He
accuracy of the statements of
apply to partial and exceptional eases,
state-
meats might admittedthe
be considered as fair samples of
cases would
of the manufacturing districts. In
the general state
this debate the tone o opponents
but he denied that those ostehepirartial
uncommonly low. They said nothing about principle.
ina, et
fact, the Government had thrown principle overboard
—(Cheers)—and had taken refuge in degree. His Hon.
and Learned Friend the Member for Bath had, without
any great degree of success, tried to test the House by
submitting to the principle of the question. The prin-
ciple for which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman con-
tended was, that it was unjustifiable for the Legislature
to interfere.
Mr. ROEBUCK—I did not say unjustifiable.
Mr. C. BULLER—That it was inexpedient to inter-
fere with adult labour. Now the House maintained that
it was justifiable to interfere with the contracts for
labour in factories, and her Majesty's Government sup-
ported it. He would venture to say that they were
supported in that respect by the master manatee.
turers of the country. There were four instances
in particular, in which the principle of interference with.
adult labour had been acknowledged. The first was in
the case of the Miners and Colliers Bill, which was be-
fore the House last year. In that Bill the Noble Lord
(Lord Ashley) was supported by the Right Hon. Barone
Secretary for the Home Department, who defended
the Bill as a most useful measure. Then there was the
Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Glad-
stone)—the Coal-whippers Bill. That was an inter-
ference with adult labour.—(Hear, hear.) But he would:
take a much stronger case, and that was the inter-.
ference with the emigration of Hill Coolies. Could they
look upon that as a non-interference with adult labour?
Then there was another instance, and that was the
eourse which the Government had taken with respect tts
the truck system. As bad been said that night, the
question before the House Was simply one of degree. He
admitted that they had a case to make out.—(Hear,
hear.) It had been said that the Legislature
ought not to interfere without good cause.—(Hear, hear.)
This was true, but that principle would apply to all,
legislation. Now as to the good cause for interference.
It had been admitted that the labourers in the manufac-
turing towns were not so healthy as labourers of a similes,
class in the manufacturing districts. He did not say
that this was owing to manufacturing labour en';frely„
but he did assume from that that there was something
in the labour in the manufacturing districts which re•
quired interference on the part of the Legislature. The
second view he took of the case.was that labour of twelve
hours a day was incousistent with a proper moral con-
dition, and well-being, and proper recreation of the
people. The Right lion. Baronet had generously coma