The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-18 00:00:00

139
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--.4-,0.4-.4041644,4414411.44•4•44,444,4 had
o the lengthened period that this Chore!
ad existen d in this country, and that throughout overt
e°untry in Europe State endowments had been the universal
se, he was convinced that it would be better for soeiete
that such an Establishment should have a permanent exist-
ence. Ile had beta astonished to hear some Hon. Members
atibsctlraareettih;tinretilnatee,ntion of voting againA this measure on the
and yet conceding that it was a measure
calculated to conciliate the affections of the Irish people.
He did not think it necessary at that time to argue, that the
!node in which the measure would work would carry out the
Intentions of its promoters, but as an act of grace he thought
it e werthy of the Goe'erninent, and n which would he
received with gratitude by those for homew it was intended.i
has( ecr. ) lie could not help thinking, that it we eve hewn better to have made a permanent provision for the
nsh clergy, instead of merely giving them for
stifles of education, and having adverted to that he must
say, that he held nothing in common with those who sought to
advance Protestantism by preventing the education of the
blushciCatholic priesthood, and he should as a Protestant
to think that Protestants, in carrying out the truth
of their
itro principles, should wish to be placed on the vantage
und le order to compete with the Roman Catholic clergy.
He thought that Protestant ministers were not less able to
reapproach the truth with power, and with energy, and effect.
ason, educated Catholic priest. lie had n w stated the rhiet
which
note induced hint to sup; ort this measure, but he
n
epuldonclude without stating that other reasons of a more
;:tetrhaaltcharacter had influenced him also. He could not for-
red iniainnythe period he had sat in Parliament no question
for-
having reference to Irish ecclesiastical polity had been conia.l-
- of liberality. Now, for the first time Italy
is
"it earliamentary recollection, he found the leading men
wihuth the Prrties into which that House was divided, cordialdly
ftneurring in the policy to he pursued with regard to Irclan.
He would hes:tate long before he w ould, although differing in
Polities from those who- promoted this measure, take any steps
eerehe would overturn thingsi as at present constituted. They
that toldat this by an Hon. Member in that House (Mr. D'lsraeli ),
was the first time that the Right Hon. Baronet at
titht:cihnead of the Government used language so liberal in intro-
Ie g any measure to the notice of the House, and they Were
n:edit,t? mark their sense of the chang.e in his policy, by resist_
rne'rit this measure withuut any reference to its intrinsic
every
.ipleentvleetrhnatng, agreed with the Honourable Member that
ent should . act on settled and fixed
that
they , _ a„ it was neither creditable or desirable
the fasten
should do otherwise. He could not forget
deepgs engendered in Ireland-feelinga which hadcesrunol-.
4,, in the minds of that sensitive people-when the p e
thuuns Act was before that House. lie remembered well tha.
the Stre
rielth of the Conservative party was directed against
the Pleasure, aid when they found at last that resistance to
but Popular opinion was perfectly impracticable they gave in,
spirit in in a generous or noble' spirit. Not with the tone or
to nhich this measure was tendered to the Irish people.,
iejetta_dmeired not only the spirit will which this measure wa.,
ivith7,_lle table, but the temper and the tone arid the language
Right ntch it was introduced. He was glad to hear the
(sir Gum Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland say,_ and lilt.
?tie,: ,e urge Grey) perfectly agreed with him, that the one,
prir,l),Le on which Ireland could be governed now was the
Gartentotation. Thecouldthe Secretar State for the Home
rie_,Partwient had riot yet spoken in thisdebate, but he (Sir G.
Right ogled that before- it cloned he would do so-that the
'alle n• Gentleman must be anxious to show that he_ cot.
(o euneurred in the new spirit, which had come over them e
thereai: eh"ring and that he` would not stand in the way o. Policy towards Ireland which the Government was pertet-,
away toio carry out-that he would say
couittr something to simnoitt,
expression which had been much criticised,his
ottle,,
sa3.in Yit, The Right Hon. Gentlemin must reeol.ect.
said
That tfiCi. that conciliation had reached its limits." When he_
in 1° measure had been tendered in a generous and confid-
4te he was sure that it had been accepted by the Romane
hrtiViernbers of that House in a kindred spirit-they had
htnot bo • a generous forgetfulness of the past, and he could‘
se:Zwt believe that the First Lord of the Treasury, who hest
er of controlling, in a g' eat degree, the votes of a large
auis.ri of those who followed him, would carry out with their
Colonel
thp liberal measures he had so auspiciously begun.
words"el SIBTHORP rose to address to the House a few
brae h "Pun tea very important measure which had been
the A t and he would claim the kind indulgence of
ditteeZuse when he acknowledged that he felt an increased
partim7 in thus presenting himself to the House, arising
theljd.l."°M the unfortunate attempts he had matte to address
not "ring an earlier stage of the debate ; and though he did
ro.eturorefess to be a nervous man-(Laughter)-he felt in some
the, a considerable degree of alarm in rising to address
teen
He intended to suppert the amendment which had
thet Proposed by the Hon. Member for Newcastle-namely,
day ,ixe second reading of the Bill should be taken on that
his mosttuhs. He had, during the last sixteen years, given
oppositto decided, most determined, and most unchangeable
the Bight to such measures as that now proposed by
the Honourable Baronet. But that was not
bongs
"1Y reason why he rose to address the
brotiec-i Laughter. ) He had another reason. He had been
beenbh: uP in th rinciples of the Protestant faith-he had
and he t?tlght up env he principles of the Protestant Church.-
sthieh inPed he had never treated the subject with that levity
Cork. lelil,cl received from the Hon. and Learned Member for
/sari ',hen he considered the great powers of mind and the
iandgindediri!dtatlhenntsse f the Hon. and Learned Member, much as he
°talents and that learning, he could not lielp feel-
dueedrrantreed
that
that Hon. and Learned Gentleman intro-
seuaughter House minters totally fcreign to the 4uestion.
-tea book thel.)h He duced a book-( Great laughter)
tinued laughter)-e-(aCeobnloonkeltb
the compilation of the HonSatibbthnorwp2uthdadnenveerverrea-(.0
read-perhaps
aroduced quotations from jut
atnd his quondam friend.-
.124 tickle the appetites of th
and Learned Gentleman himself
rbeat laughter.) Whentnheleaise
ook, no doubt it
Ih_tirrespautation of being well abitosen
cßeoars of laughter.) The
I ber had
01%.t of laughter, In wh Who wantedneto bAweasetnticklped.-
4 tandet Lt eear d
h table in a roar"-
'nf. uthe.-.and in the courts oifelhawMhre. hoSateslrelgei:iPtetdAfiruormphy
the gravityt
raerridluußes--for, after all, judges were but men-a dreeo
heartily.
teSir,rietrtheleuhich ill beseei d the gravity of the bench.
t.
~ -on. and GallannteG ntlernan,
qUotatin°- oefitting the lion Genetleman to have read those
`'aluabl I say it would hbave
ness-where he is no doubt a very entertaining and -
I.Peerhapse,ufseentrber-at the Beef-Steak Club.- (Loud laughter.)
, arned (3 fart I have been told, that. the Hon. arm
rLetepere elitism:tan visits that Society because it is founded on
rarnedue.ee tirseiples but, Sir, I have seen that Hon. and
Inotild s ,Ititle
Gall man sometimes' when he has appeared, what
raernh no fair specimen, as far as temperance goes, of the
titles eer °that So (Loud laughter.) These quota-
Ito one „no, Pave
th'l 1.1%,e,
w,'_" told better there than within the walls e t
4 ° religion "ere matters were
highsk that
tens which he to entertain, as I
being discussed touching upon
professes
iiest eittirntgion for which f profess. the strongest and the
his', were
and such a grave
• ati°n. Sir, I say, that in this H. ouse such quota-
t-ulect as Itit.nrnY opinion, most nubeceming
t'e been t"at whit') was then before the douse aught
Hon. and Learned
'Allem reated in such a manner bthe
Sir, I never
pick, 4 Aaine, considering the station heoccupies..
eauglite. s rerl Andrew of myself in this House.-(Roars. of
elegy '.: ' 11',Ithnaenversaw on the stage, at any time, a greater
teen ' tsrldree.
rttY 4 Illade of hil know I know
h utY to rase • Sir,
thet Honourable- 'andinyLedaurtnye-d Gentle-
-Itie ate are my Sovereign-and I reverence my God.
the Yet act
_gard for my Protestant fellow-creatures,. and I will
iiilye faiie:;.neartic(t,htahepart as will be hurtful to their feelings.
. Sir,
u%it tar and Learned Gentleman thought proper in that,
House was covulsed with laughter by
ered this one in which the Hon. and Gallant Member de-
t4eh 's unfinished sentence)-Sir, in that book he first
Pi eti uPon
it est Lord the person of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
eite that Right the •Treasury•-( Great laughter.)
"ases 'light lion Gentleman, Sir, to take wile., notice M
41 "it .I will. leave.
haven ot with
~ (Continued laughter.) Oh, Sir, I quer-
y,' .g do the Honourable and Learned Gentleman for
;h'thin the done thi. I trust, Sir, that I can stand up
ereseFeertwalls-of this House-yes, Sir, and I trust else-
hisentle telll Of whatever quotations that Hon. and Learned
'flan ha
1 inane sto present, and which his present and perhapsfr-
less of arn friend may recommend him to introduce- ea
ratter whatever remarks he may make with regard to my cha,
roleau..e gartdr_ue.t...Sir, I must naturally suppose, for I have
4001 editiot;
hi !_ould 15,..!!' feeling that the Hon.. and Learned Gentle-
% _veuwriterniAZot•nne most proper person, if indeed he has it not
ofaltrheadY-perheps he has-to be the editor of
H --(Great hat book, which I have read as a boy at
laughter_ )-I mean Joe Miller's Jests. That
4leltirearuictl Learned Gntleman will permit me to say, but
I,„leic!nethine Will or not I'll say it-(Loud laughter)-that he
Gall he thing
ut support of that religion and of
,that measure tde
all"
(professed to be so warmly attached. The Hon. an that `reutternan went on to say
4 Protthat lie deeply regretted
!°hadviser f estant Itlinister of the Crown, and the confidential
aveae, °Protestant Sovereign, should, he would say dared,
'0 the feelrnught forward such a measure as this, so repugnant
terprie,
d i, re
of every Protestant. He had been very much
Chan' le-
"Y the spe /1 f the Right Hon. Gentleman the
htlitiee'reeltt7 ef the Execheqouer, who represented the Protestant
h place °, Cambridge, and who had stood. up in
817PPort . and said that he should give his cordial
,hat Right
to the
re measure before the House.-( Hear. )
ott'4B whigilleet ",uns Gentleman had treated the numerous peti-
t-lan% e,a,'".' nad been presented against this measure in a
hrelbarth","leh they did not deserve. The Right Hon.. Gen-
"' teed a:-. said that those petitioner; wished for the annihilation
belie, elnical institutions altogether. He (Colonel Sibthorp)
sere iefa that the petitioners had no such wish. Churchalreitnd Passed, would go far to establish the Popish in
Ohl
p ' and would be a great step towards the demolition of
%h rotestant Church. From the speech of the First Lord
Nei Trealury, no one could tell whether that Right Hon.
hen, 'erten was a Roman Catholic or Protestant, or a Ma-
iligitiu,ede.an.-( Laughter.) At no distant time probably the
beeei; lion. Gentleman would be found sitting on a cross
latieht in the proud position of a Mahomedan.-(Great
all lr• ) He (Colonel Sibthorp) confessed that he had lost
UN tlitudenee in the Hight Hon Gentleman. He was stepping
alee4tjangerous ground. This 'hasty measure had spread clis-
nepo%;lr°gh the country. Already did the Hon. Gentlemen
beneh'te be to flap their wings and look to the Treasury
the sees---( Great laughter.) The Right Hon.
inchGentketa.n
sitn;;Pille Secretary might smile, but he was not so safe is teedeat°4 as he thought he was. He (Colonel Sibthorp).in-
teseW" of course to give this measure his decided opposition.
1 Rill I sit down continued the lion. and Gallant Gentleman,
thatl tell the ' Hon, and Learned Member for Cork
Ile tell., entertain no' malignant feeling towards him.
he i,"'" rne to take what be said in good humour. I hope
hope,he Psr.ePared to take what I say in' the same spirit. But I
er,
.Ir, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, whenever. het.
sohje'et'ais House, to speak on such a grave-such an importer!,
this if as this, will at least consider that there are men in
tikes °use who regard their religion with veneration. These
trtti are not the times of revelre. These are times when the
their'''. Public look to the House 'of Commons for a defence of
whilights
thei'.ll they and liberties, and for a defence of that faith in
lion:, feebl;:voehb:en instructed. These are not times to turn
bior_ Petitions into ridicule. These, Sir, are my honest opts
too feebly-expressed ; and I tell the Rigtit
t„ Gent eman at the bead of the Government, that I will
to ast‘r "PPort him. I will never support any man in a measure
toeePPetirt which I believe would be contrary to my duty to my
atteh reign__
l Laughter.) 1 never will support any man in
for c4a„nleasure; and though the lion. and Learned Member
tha
hik told me that I would sooner sacrifice my principles
ete:re ',4"e(Roara of laughter)-1 tell that Hon. and
but had "entleman that I would rather not only be shaved,
testenie rnY head shaved off, than forget that I am a Pro-
eh band the faith in which I vvas educated.-(Cheers. )
kelt "itGKSTONE addreeled himself with considerable &f-
-I:at f Yindentitth pain to the question before the House-with pai••,
Oted,tge it h. is duty to differ from those with whom he usually
P;toe th.•ll with difficulty, seeing the importance of the ques-
olvect had to discuss. It had been said that this measure
esegieee no piinciple. He did not believe that the people of
i„iste,,, " were so stupid as to combine for the purpose of reef
the moth a measure which involved no principle. He thought
rttle house new principle was involved in the measure before
‘ottlie cilte• , The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Coventry
0. eph:ee) had declared that Parliament was about to enter
had eat,: the The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool
leek ;'‘ tne unfortunate word .. restitution." Now, he (Mr.
41,°*. pr3i,e)sroald ask, whether restitution d id not mean that some
teh'Y iett_Pie was involved in the measure then before the House?
apt titan' told that by principle they were hound to continue
to Ai
CI, e refused tYnOOth: Year after,year the grant was opposed,
Ctrl to
in af hb0,.,. vote against it under the hope that was hell
t,sde "sntrig it the following year. An attempt had been
411 ‘tutlant°Ce,deraw an analogy between the maintenance of the
holt
hd""""lie priests in Ireland generally, and the chaplains
11111:eatCni wa°llL,fri oases.. T her e wa a vast distinction, because
1014 placer e
re
ednotantly in the went of re.

les'
,add
on
po.,

ligieeta consolati n. It (ea, Jett a question whether T:laynooth
was to have twenty or thirty thousand pounds a year, for no
matter how it ha,! been disguised by the Government, the real
principle in the measure was the endowment of the Roman
Catholic religion in Ireland. He could not support the motion
of the Honourable _Member for Sheffield, because he did not
understand the idea of plundering one Church for the support
of another, but he did understand that if they adopted this
measure it would become imperative on them to endow a second
State religion in Ireland. Disguise it as the Government
might, that was the principle. Let theta adopt the plan which
prevailed in Scotland it they liked; but to suppose that the
eeople of Ireland wsuld submit to have two State religions in
the country was quite absurd.
Mr. RICE said that many of his constituents had opinions
very strongly opposed to this measure, but he would state, in
as few words as possible, why he should not act in accordance
with those opinions, but should give his support cordially and
sincerely to the measure. He did not think that the question
before them was whether they should endow the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood, but nhether the grant should be effectual in
giving education to th priesthood of Ireland or not? He
could understand the observations of those Gentlemen who bad
constantly voted eonsis'ently against the grant, but he did
not understand why they voted against the increased
grant, who had given their support to the grant on former oc-
casions. The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down
touched two questions ; first, as to the question of compacts, lie
did not understand whether there was a compact or no'. But
he knew that statesmen who had many years' experience re-
commended the increase of the grant as an act of justice. He
also said that there was a new principle in the increase of this
grant ; but lie was of the opinion of the Hon. Secretary at
War, who said that there was no new principle involved in the
increase. Some also objected on religious and conscientious
grounds, but he was not going to yield to any in attachment to
the religion which he believed to be true; he would respect
their opinions and conscientious objections, but be could not
disregard the feelings and religious opinions of his fellow sub•
jects and fellow-Christians in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Others
objected to the measure, on the grounds that it would tend to
increase the number of Roman Catholics, and to decrease the
number of Protestants in Ireland. He denied that the Bill
would produce such an effect, for by making them more en-
lightened men they would make them more enlightened
Christians, and it could not be contended for one
moment that by making them more enlightened
they were rendering them less susceptible of becoming
converts to the truth. Nothing could be more injurious to the
Protestant Church in Ireland, than the existence of grievance's
on the Roman Catholic side. Nothing could be more prejudi-
cial to the Protestant religion in that country, than the suppo-
sition, nn the part of the Catholics, that they were treated
with injustice. If they wanted to see the grateful feeling with
which the Irish people received the measure, they had only to
look to the Irish representatives, who in the House expressed
their gratitude for the Bill. Looking upon them as the repre-
entatives of the Irish feeling on the question, they found that
feeling better and more extensive than their most sanguine
expectations led them to hope for. Were they prepared to take
upon themselves the responsibility of refusing a measure which
had been so proposed and so received—were they prepared with
a refusal which would have the effect of disuniting the United
Empire ? He eras not so prepared, and he would give his vote
in favour of the second reading of the Bill, which his con-
science and his judgment toll him was the right course.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that he confessed that he approached
the consideration of this subject with considerable pain and
anxiety. He was in the habit of hearing remarks directed
against him by ti e Hon. Member for Kent, which were not.
at all of a pleasant description, and which may have been in..
tended to give great discouragement to him in the defence
which he was about to make of Protestant principles. lie
confessed that theugh they were unpleasant, they had not dad
the effect of crushing his feeling, and the desire which he en-
tertained, of maintaining the course which he intended to
pursue on this question. The Hon. Member for Lambeth se-id
that from the petitions which had come before the House it
appeared that this question was considered by the people of
England as one of vital importance ; ho agreed with the Hon.
Getitleman that was the view taken by the people. If it were
not a subject in which religion was a part it was a matter to
him of insignifivance, whether they gave a certain sum of money
to a certain college in Ireland or not, but he felt that it was a
connected with
tmhoisstßiitlnlPWerrtaentg e
He had heard of a meeting which had lately been held in this
uien3ttC rcerit"ShoefnthheePsraowteFs'toawntelEossetlayblished Church.
great eity,Tn theceonve caneeielbsyi theen,and that m
magistratefirsteeting was tt
ofthaecein ded
city, whohy
presided
all the great
eaentdiugbarnekseerlsu,tiaennds
were
er
adoptedtraders ofw which
greatcity.
cwaetreed,
rteol
gai
ee,e,
er ttaei
pna
axttiennnt., o—(f
ca e x
iresl ignifo
Nehoa,rancot.e,r,), a nil
ea dhvao-
d
ehteaervderayn
e,H,eoent n Isgl
eml
db eur
peexnp
thisress
gdui sessetni
ete,
,brueth
gh.i hofi woausl dt
hsay q
et t
.
lion and the only one, and he believed he might say that re l-
eant ,wthhei
which
,fie,. odn
hiene
nt h
ai s
mc aeseet
ihnagd
htealkde ni
nass
It
oh
ie ftohuer
ctirtuymtpheatrerisl,
leading
s isr,l7ssre
features•
em
oadfethaagtadinissetutsh,iiesnrawsurerere;
pa,n,lditiweshaitntwreordeuetehe
this
d
measure were two w
there ? No ; nothing but a religious aspect alone
features n
fcthhaeraterised
the proceedings, and formed the leadingdiscus-
sion.nntsetdn
extenso, and which, therefore, became Parliamentary papers;
Amidst some
hoiefhthheadpetit
beeni°n so
ordered presented
eagprait
and he would ask were not those petitions well worthy the con-
sideration of that House? He ( Mr. Plumptre) had had the
pleasure of presenting hundreds of petitions to the House upon
various occasions ; hut, amongst them all, not one was there
that more deeply affected a religious question than the
present.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not understand
why, if the present Government were determined
be upon
carrying this measure, that a different course should adopted
towards Ireland than was pursued in other countries where tin
Roman Catholic religion was endowed.—( Hear, hear.)
Russia, Austria, Spain, and other countries, there was a
wholesome control exercised over the Catholic institutions ;
and, therefore, be would ask, if the Roman Catholic religion
were to be endowed in Ireland by the Government, why the
Government should not have some control over it? The
Hon. Member then read some passages from a pamphlet en-
titled " Maynooth, the Crown of the Country," which he con-
tended supported his arguments ; but the low tone in which he
read the extracts, as well as that in which he spoke, rendered
it almost impossible to catch the connexion of his sentences.
He continued by saying that if evils did arise from such a state
of things as he believed would follow this grant, let the Go-
vernment remember that they had been warned, and made ac-
quainted with the difficulty in which they had been placed.
Nothing could be further from his intention than to give pain
to his Roman Catholic neighbours by any expres•
sions he should make use of ; but he felt
he had a duty to perform—that duty he would fulfil
no matter how painful to him. Ho had heard the Noble Lord
declare, that he did not believe that the Roman Catholic reli-
gion was the religion of Anti-Christ; but he (Mr. Plumptre)
should say, he regretted that he could not agree with the
Noble Lord. He had heard a great deal from the Hon. Mem-
ber for Canterbury; but he (Mr. Plumptre) begged to tell
that Hon. Member that he did not want to take advice or
counsel from him. The Hon. Member concluded by declaring
his determination to oppose the motion.
Mr. TRELAWN Y said he would support the measure of
the Government ; but, at the same time, he should say, he
wag averse to the endowment of any Church Establishment;
and he contended that the further the Government went in
making such endowments, the deeper they became involved in
the difficulty. But as an endowment was to be made,
he would contend for it, that in this instance
much that was useful and beneficial would follow.
There was another argument, that this would be an induce-
ment to agitation, and that other Dissenters would demand
endowment. But he thouoht there could be no parallel be-
tween the case of the Roman Catholics and the Dissenters of
England. The priests of the Irish Catholics had been perse-
cuted to death—a price had been put by statute upon their
heads. This was a persecution to which the English Dis-
senters had never been subjected. And he further agreed
with those who argued that if the union had never taken place
the Roman Catholics of Ireland would before this have ob-
tained more than the Government now proposed to give them.
From all considerations of Justice and expediency he would
support this measure—no matter what unpopularity it might
involve. He was glad that the Right Hon. Baronet who
brought it forward did nut shrink from his purpose in
consequence of the taunts which had been cast upon bins.
The Honourable Member for Shrewsbury had attacked
the Right Honourable Baronet for his inconsistency,
but the Right Hon. Baronet was very consistent in the way in
wbich he treated the past adulation and present a.btFe of the
Hon. Member.—( Hear, hear.) The argument that the mea-
sure ought to be rejected on account of the inconsistency of its
proposer. was worthy only of the Member for Shrewsbury and
Fielding's philosopher, Square.—(Hear.) For his own part,
he gave the measure his hearty support.—( Hear. )
Lord COUItTENAY had weighed well all the arguments of
those who opposed the measure. They could not oppose it on
principle, so long as they allowed a grant of a smaller amount.
Looking to the physical destitution, and the spiritual wants of
the people of Ireland, he would ask would that House do its
duty if it did not, to the best of its power, promote the educa-
tion of the priesthood. He thought it was a duty of the Impe-
rial Parliament to effect that object. But that was not his only
reason for supporting the measure, but he thought also that it
would have the effect of binding the connexion between the two
countries, and promoting the happiness of both.—( Hear.)
Mr. WYKEHAM MARTIN was in the same predicament
as the Hon. Member opposite, who had been required by his
constituents either to vote against this measure or to resign his
seat. But he thought the measure of so much importance to
the good of the United Kingdom, that he felt it his duty to
support her Majesty's Government. He thought those who
supported the regium donum to the Presbyterians could not,
upon principle, oppose a similar support to the more numerous
and more impoverished Roman Catholics. He did not see
why they should ask the Roman Catholics to contribute to the
support of the Protestant Church, if they were not, en the
other hand, willing to give something to maintain the College
of Maynooth. It was painful for him to be obliged to differ
from those who sent him the memorial, for many of whom he
entertained great respect, but he fell that the step he was
taking was the correct one, and he was deeply convinced that
he was only acting according to his duty in supporting the pre-
sent measure.—( Hear.)
Mr. H. M. TUITE would support the measure of the
Government, as an Irish Protestant Member, and he begged
to remind those Hon. Gentlemen who spoke of the Pro-
testants of Ireland, that there were a great number of Irish Pro-
testants who were in favour of the measure.—( Hear, hear.)
He considered that the measure of the Government would
not only be an advantage to Ireland. but to the empire at
large. He regretted the acrimonious feelings which had
been exhibited during the present debate, and those who
accused the Government, and talked of being deceived,
should remember that the Right Honourable Baronet
gave ample notice of his intention with regard
to this measure—( Hear, hear)—though he had not done
so with regard to the tariff and other measures upon which
so many in that House were interested. A great deal had
been said of the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy, but
it was only last Sunday week that he heard the clergyman of
Christchurch, St. Jo'in's-wood, request his congregation,
both gentlemen and ladies, to come down to the vestry-room
after the service to sign petitions against the Maynooth grant.
When that conduct was pursued by a Protestant clergyman of
the Established Church, be did not think that they ought to
be so bitter against the Catholic clergy of Ireland for allowing
the use of their chapels for political purposes, especially as here
they had Exeter-hall and such places to hold their meetings in.
He thought that the Roman Catholics would feel deeply grate-
ful to the Right Hon. Baronet for this measure.—( Hear. )
Mr. CAREW (Cornwall) expressed his intention of voting
for the present measure, though he had presented petitions
against the grant. He agreed with the Hon. Member for
Kent, that the question had taken a religious complexion
though he deeply regretted it. He thought they owed some-
thing to the people of Ireland ; and they should not forgot the
trickery by which the Union was brought about against the
consent of the majority of the Irish people. He did not
sympathise with those who thought the present measure would
destroy the Established Church in Ireland. He could not see
how the affording of increased education to the educators of the
people of Ireland could have that effect.
Lord LEVESON regretted the tone of bitterness used by
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln. He did not think
he was called upon to enter into the consideration of the ques-
tion, how far the Government deserved the censure so liberally
bestowed by these who sat behind them ? It must be evident to
every one that the Government had begun to regret the line of
policy which they pursued when in Opposition. He washed to
drop that subject. He felt anxious to support a measure, which
he really believed to be good in itself ; and which he bought
good, because unaccompanied by any injudicious and harsh re.
Motions, and btoause, from what he had mon of the Age of

the country, and from what he could hear from the speeches
made in that flouse, he believed no other party in the king-
dom could carry such a measure, except those now in
power.—(llear, hear.) Allusion had been made to the
length of the debate. He thoueht it a matter of regret
thet the debate was so lenethened, because a favourable oppor-
tunity was afforded to excite what he believed to be the con.
scientious, hut at the same time misguided feelings of a large
portion of the British public. He regretted that clergymen
had on such occasions considered it to be their duty to raise
,uch feelings in the minds of their floc:-s —feelings of hostility
and towards their fellow subjects and fellow Christians.
—( Hear, hear.) But on the other hand tho debate which
had taken place in that House must go far to assuage those
feelings. Ile thought that when the public read speeches,
such as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Devonport this evening—speeches delivered night after night
since the debate began, it oould go far to create a favourable
impression of the Government policy. When they read the
report of the speech of his Noble Friend for Dorsetshire—a
speech admirable for its tone and temper towards the people of
Ireland, and a speech which, while opposed to the measure,
appeared to him to state in the closest manner the anomalous
state of the religious instruction of the Irish people at this
moment, and which demonstrated, in the most logical manner,
that the step to which the Government had come was the most
equitable basis for the religious instruction of that portion of
the people. He thought that when the English public saw
that some of the advocates against the measure were obliged to
have recourse to the poverty of the Irish church—when they
saw advocates, not the least able, refuse to urge an argument
which had been urged on the House on every previous measure,
when a benefit was about to be conferred on the Irish people,
namely, that if the Governrne it persevered in such a course,
England would lose its station among the nations of the earth.
When the public compared the speeches made upon both sides,
he thought they would nut long continue in the present state
of excited feeling. In his opinion the chief boast of Eng-
lishmen was not their commercial prosperity, not the power
of the country in war, but the a( knowledged superiority in
the civil liberty of the subject. And were they to be told
that a step in the direction of toleratien would degrade Eng-
land among the nations of the earth? The Noble Lord tl e
Member for Lynn, in a speech which he thought good
in itself, but better as an evidence in the present generation of
a more kindly sympathy felt by the Irish Protestants
towards their Catholic fellow-subjects. That 1\ oble Lord,
who had supposed the case of a stranger visiting that House,
might have carried his supposition a little further—that a
stranger had actually visited that house—a great statesman—
whose high intellect was known throughout Europe, who,
though a Protestant, had been much among Roman Catholics,
a man eminent fur high reputation and great learning, and phi-
lanthropy, and who would consider religious denominations
of all torts on the same comprehensive and philanthropic
basis a man deeply studied in the principles of the
British Constitution, and if he had sq_ppos.ed such a stranger
watching the debates, would that NoblWLord not have blushed
for shame to find the Imperial Legislature of this kingdom
disputing about a miserable pittance for the religious instruc-
tion of a portion of their fellowesubjects.—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) [The Noble Lord alluded to the Duke de Broglie
who, on a former evening, was present during this debate.]
For his ( Lord Levison's) part he cordially approved of the
measure, and would not weary the House by bringing further
arguments in favour of it. He was sorry for having trespassed
so long on the attention of the House, and thanked them for
the patience with which they had listened to him.
Mr. R. SPOONER said that if be had consulted his own
private feelings he would have given a silent vote, but as the
representative of a large community that felt deeply on the
question, he considered it to be his bounden duty to state, as
shortly as he could, the reasons which reluctantly obliged him to
oppose the Government. He did not. treat this question with
any feelings of bigotry, neither did he mean to treat it as a
mere money question. He treated it as a question of a reli-
gious principle to which he would adhere as long as he held a
seat in that House. He agreed with the Right
Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had spoken
on a previous night, in the view which he had taken
upon this subject. He divided the opponents of the Bill into
three heads. The first resisted it because of the increased
amount. Now, he thought those who could vote for the small
sum could vote for the larger. But there was certainly this
broad distinction between the two grants, that whereas the
one was only annual and under the control of Parliament. this
was perpetual, and removed from that control. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had added that Parliament endowed
the Roman Catholic Church on a former occasion. He (Mr.
Spooner) denied that this was the case, and he made this dis-
tinction, that whereas the one Bill merely enabled Roman
Catholics to endow with their own money, this Bill would
endow a Roman Catholic establishment with State money.
The second class of objections he could perfectly understand.
They went upon the voluntary principle, but he could not
see how any Honourable Member who entertained such views
could vote for the second reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
To the third elms of objections he declared himself zealously,
firmly. and conscientiously attached.—( Hear, hear.) He had
a strong religious feeling on this matter, and never would con-
sent to endow the Church which, he really believed, taught
doctrines dangerous, unsound, and unscriptural. Upon this
subject he must open his mind freely, and declare that he
never, never would consent to the endowment of a Church
which, in his opinion, was dangerous to those to whom
its dangerous doctrines were taught doctrines so de-
lusive, and a Church which, at the hour of death,
instead of administering to its followers the comforts
of religion led them to trust to an awful delusion.—(Loud cries
of " Oh," from the Opposition.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
alluded to mistakes in translations, but this step was a delibe-
rate sanction of error, not an accidental encouragement of
mistakes in translations; and they were voting a sum of money
for the purpose of teaching doctrines which they conscientiously
denied, and believed to be full of error, and to which he trusted
the House would never consent. Looking at the question as a
political one, and viewing it on the grounds advanced by his
Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, he could
not see its utility, although he firmly believed the Right Hon.
Gentleman and the Government were actuated by the best
motives, for what else but a high sense of duty, and a desire
to confer a benefit on the State, could have induced them to
make such sacrifices ? He, therefore, gave his Right Hon.
Friend full credit for sincerity and honest motives, and he trusted
the same credit for sincerity and honesty would be given to
himself. He would give an extract from a speech of a de-
parted Right Hon. Gentleman, one which had been quoted by
his Right Hon. Friend, not, however, very fairly quoted, for
the Right Hon. Gentleman had left out a most material part.
He could not mention the name of that departed Right Hon.
Gentleman without regretting that some younger Members of
that House had spoken of him so slightingly.—(Hear, hear. )
He (Mr. Spooner) had known him, perhaps not so intimately
as many Hon. Members of that house, but he was sure that
all who heard him would concur with him in this, that if a
conscientious discharge of his duty as Prime Minister—if a life
devoted to his country—a man who met with his death at the
very door of this House in the execution of his office—if
such claims as these did not call for generous remembrance—if
a conscientious discharge of all social public and private obli-
gations, which reeommended him to the veneration of all who
knew him—if all those claims did not entitle his memory to
respect, he feared that few public men could hope to receive
it.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Percival said that "he disclaimed
the odious principle of intolerance ; but he observed, at the
same time, that the memorial of Roman Catholics, which was
the foundation of Maynooth, claimed no pecuniary relief. The
Roman Catholics promised to defray all expenses themselves,
and though Government and Parliament had given 8,000/. in
aid of the object—(" Mind," said the Hon. Gentleman, " Mr.
Percival did not use the word perpetual")—that was ne rea-
son that the country should be subjected to constant and in-
creasing demands for a purpose for which no precedent existed
in Rey ago or country that of educating a priest-
hood differing widely from the Established Church."—( Hear.)
He conceived that they had, on the present occasion, begun at
the wrong end. They proposed to educate the priests, and
they said that the educated priests would enlighten the people.
If he really believed that they would be really enlightened, he
confessed that much of the sting would be taken away, though
that would not justify him in voting for the present
moasure. But they would be disappointed in this expectation.
If they educated the priests they would require to pay them. If
they did not pay them they would be obliged, as before, to
go among the ignorant and the poor, who had not the means
of paying them. He would ask what, under these circum-
stances, must be the nature of the machinery which the Roman
Catholic priests must use—what but exacting from the super-
stitious ignorance of the peasantry what they would not other-
wise get from them, spontaneous charity. The House might
depend on it that the people would not be enlightened, for ig-
norance was the parent of superstition, and superstition was
their very means of support. They had not been able to draw
from the Right Hen. Gentleman any declaration as to whether

this was to be a final measure, or whether they had in contem-
plation some future measures of a similar character,--( Hear,
hear.) He had well oh-erred whether the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
reply to the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorset,
but the Right Hon. Gentleman answered only satisfactorily
upon one point tied that was, nothing should induce them to
touch the funds of the Established Church, but not one word
did he say relative to the payment of the priesthood. He
( Mr. Spooner) thought that this would furnish a very bad
precedent, for the Government might come down at an after
period to that House, and using the same arguments as in the
case of Maynooth (for they had already broken down the prin-
ciple), Bay that they would pay the priests for them to
carry out the objects which they had in view when they intro-
duced the first measure. The very facts of the case enabled
every Member in that House to draw that conclusion. The
Ministry seemed to be acting upon the principle of giving the se
boons by instalments, and he thought that the people of Eng.
land had a right to complain that they were likely to go further
and further until the Roman Catholic Church should be regularly
endowed. Let them go to every populous town in England,
ju
stly
stated his Hon. Friend the Member for Warwickshire had
stated the other night, let them go to that county or to his
(Mr. Spooner's) part of the country, or in the neighbouring
counties, and there they would find schools, colleges, and
seminaries for the very purpose of creating congregations by a
display of pageantry, by a lavish expenditure, and by the at-
tractive character of the services they placed before the people.
If they had no other objects than to gain congregations, why
not commence where the congregations really were ? Why not
themselves establish schools and colleges and seminaries in Ire-
land ? Why came to England and lavish their money in search
of congregations ? Ignorance was the grand work
on which they reared their superstructure. He
would now allude to another part of the subject;
but he would merely allude to it in a few words, and
he would quote on this subject the illustrious individual to
whom he had already referred. The Hon. Member then
quoted from Hansard a speech of Mr. Percival in 1408, in
which he deprecated the idea of making the grant to May-
nooth a perpetual one. He now came to a subject which had
caused him great surprise on the previous evening, and which
merited the earnest attention of the House. The Noble Lord,
the Member for Newark, after stating that in the remarkable
work of Dr. Christopher Wordsworth, it was stated—" that
whereas by all other countries, whether Protestant or Roman
Catholic, in which the Roman Catholic religion was
acknowledged, and sanctioned, and supported by the
State, every precaution was taken, and every safe-
guard was devised, to secure the temporal supremacy of
the monarch against the Roman power—in these realms alone
no such precautions were taken, and that Isere alone was free
trade with Rome.' The English nation," it continued,
" pays for Maynooth, and the Pope governs it ; shall not the
nation either cease to support, or the Pope to rule it ?" The
priest takes avow of obedience to the Roman Pontiff; the
bishop swears to maintain the Papacy, and to preserve the
rights and royalties of St. Peter; the archbishop may not exer-
cise his sacred functions till he has received the pallium of
Rome. Priests, bishops, and archbishops, are all the vassals of
Rome, rather than the subjects of Queen Victoria, and yet it
is to them that we make over the exclusive management of the
establishments for the education of the Roman Catholic
priests." Those were the ;premises. He had admitted them
to be true; but what was the conclusion at which the
Rev. Gentleman and those who agreed with him arrived ?
—to have nothing whatever to say to that enormous power
which they themselves admitted to be so greatly influential and
formidable. It was a case, in his opinion, for a course of con-
duct totally different. He would say to these gentlemen—
" Admit frankly and freely into your union and intercourse
that power which you acknowledge to be so great and exten-
sive. Accredit a Minirer to the Vatican—receive a Nuncio
at St. James's—and see whether you cannot thus do what you
never can effect if you continue by the most miserable and
childish weakness to ignore the existence of a monarchy which
was great before England was a kingdom, and to which is yet
was ilia over
thestateemveenryt
icohntremendous
s. su
h i
pporertmiointteodt tyhottre ezeyracsitsedo9fmsinu

--,
of the Noble Lord. Yes, the Pope was strews, and they
in England must submit to him. He was foPoeecrin the same
argument by the Hon. Member for Canterbury. The whole
of his speech in substance was,' do that which absolutely con-
tradicts the Coronation oath ; that which is subversive of the
constitution of the country; that which, if ado; fed by her
Majesty's Ministers, would render them liable to impeach-
ment." He would tell the Right Hon. Gentlemen below him
that the country expected from the Government an entire and
unequivocal renunciation of the doctrines propounded by the
Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear, hear.) lie
thanked the House for the attention with which they had heat d
him in the expression of his honest opinions.
Sir J. GRAHAM said—Sir, the Right Hon, Member for
Devonport has expressed a wish that the debate upon this question
should not pass without some declaration on the part of
my Right lion. Friend at the head of the Government or of
myself, as to what the ultimate intentions of the Government
may be on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) It has been
complained of, on the other hand, that this debate
has been too much prolonged. (Ironical cheers. )
Sir, Ido not think so. I think that neither the Government
nor the country has reason to regret the prolonging of the de.
bate.—(Hear, hear.) Because, Sir, I feel thet in this moment
of excitement—in any moment of the greatest excitement—an
appeal to the feelings and understanding of the people of this
country never fails to produce the best results— ( Hear, hear)—
and, I believe, that the appeal to their reason in the very matter
of this debate has already produced the best results, and that
the feeling which we are, not beginning, but carrying out—
( Cheers)—is triumphant —(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Renfrew has stated that if we had foreseen
the storm which we were raising, we would not hare pursued
our present course. But I beg to assure the Hon Gentleman and
the liouse, that this preposition has been deliberately, earnestly,
and with forethought of all consequences introduced to the
consideration of the House by my Right lion. Friend and his
colleagues. Sir, I deplore, as much as the lion. Member for
Birmingham can deplore, the division which this question
creates upon this side of the House. Sir, it is deeply pa'nful
to me that there should be any division—it is deeply painful to
me that we should lose ( I hope the loss will not be permanent)
that we should lose for a time the support of those gen-
tlemen who, upon this side of the House, have declared them-
selves adverse to this proposition.—( Hear, hear.) Whilst I
deeply deplore the loss of their support upon this occasion,
when we propose to the House a measure of great importance,
and one which upon our responsibility we could not fail
to propose, and we must not hesitate to persevere in. I think it
is our duty to redress any real wrongs of which Ireland has
to cemp!ain.—( Cheers. ) And Ido not hesitate to say, that
this measure is a commencement of a better state of
things.—( Great cheering.) s must say still further, that I
am confident, that if we did not lay the foundation of that
better policy by this measure, any other would give way.—
( Cheers. ) But what are the arguments on the other side?
My Right Hon. Friend, the Member for the University of
Oxford, argues that the effect of the measure will be to
damage the Protestant Establishment in these realms—
whilst the Hon. Gentleman, the actual if not the virtual re-
presentative of the University of Durham, opposed the measure
because it was calculated to perpetuate that Establishment.
Yet, Sir, I have heard no speech so conclusive in favour of
the measure as that of the Hon. Member for Durham, who
spoke so fervently against all establishments and all endow-
ments —(Cheers.) But the Hon. Member at the same time
admitted that if it were not for his opposition to establishments
of every kind, he would support the measure for its conciliatory
tendency.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Member for Edin-
burgh charges me with inconsistency as a Member of the Go..
vernment, in supporting this measure.—(Hear, hear.) He
says that the policy which we have hitherto pursued has been
to uphold the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland.—( Cheers.)
Now, Sir, observe what is the answer of the Government to
that accusation.—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") The various
accusations against us repel each other, and many of
them refute themselves.—(Loud cheers.) Some Gentlemen
have told us that we were conferring greater strength
and permanence on the Established Church. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin says that the clergy are reduced
to the most grievous state, by the measures of those now in
opposition to the Government. Well, what was the first mea-
sure which he mentioned, as an instance of our inconsistency?
Why, the Church Temporalities Bill. But that was the mea-
sure of my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies.—
( Cheery.) The next was theTitheLoCrdomsptoasiiltlieoyn
aAncdt.myTsehla;
also was introduced by my Noble Friend the Secretary for the
Colonies. The measure was adopted by the Government of
Lord Melbourne, in 1834 ; and
being in Opposition, gave it our most strenuous and decided
support.—(Cheers.) Of what other measure does the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin complain ? Why, of
the national system of education. That also was the work of
my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies.—( Cheers. )
Another Hon. Member complained that in all offices strangers
were preferred by the present Government. Is that the fact?
—( Hear, hear.) When vacancies occurred upon the bench,
we preferred to the bench Pennefather and Blackburn, and
Lefroy and Jackson..—( Cheers.) But these are not the accu-
sations against which I think it most difficult to defend the
Government. But allow me to tell the Hon. and Learned Re-
corder for Dublin, that if he thinks the day when Protestant
ascendancy could be maintained in Ireland is not yet passed,
he is mistaken.—(Great cheering.) The day is passed—
( Renewed cheering)—and I will not be one to attempt to go.
vern Ireland upon his principles.—( Very great cheering. )
Now, Sir, I think that so far as my consistency is concerned,
I have stated enough to show that uniformly, whether in
Opposition or in the Government, I have endeavoured to
act steadily up to the principles as enunciated by
us in the Temporalities Act. Again, in the scheme
of national education, and practically in principle, by the
Tithe Commutation Acts. With respect to the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite, I entertain but little difference with them, for I
have never expressed an opinion as an individual that I was at
all opposed to the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy of
Ireland. That point was raised repeatedly. 1 think it was
raised when I was in Opposition ; and I am quite sure it was
raised two or three years ago ; and in the course of the dis-
cussion the Hon. Member for Kilkenny said with respect to
the endowment of the College of Maynooth, it was an arrange-
ment to which he would not give his consent. I stated then
that it was my belief, whatever might have been the circum-
stances which et any former period would have rendered such a
course impracticable, and although there existed an unwilling-
ness on the part of the Irish clergy and the British public to
maintain such an institution, yet my own private feelings
and judgment would not then prevent me from mak-
ing such an endowment. A slight differarce, however,
has always existed between me and the Noble Lord
opposite, namely, with respect to the propriety of withdrawirg
the funds for endowing such an institution from the property
of the Protestant Church Establishment in Ireland. Upon that
point I have a decided opinion, and I have endeavoured to
adhere to it uniformly, and I still adhere to it, because I have
an insuperable objection to such an arrangement. I repeat, I
have never swerved from that opinion—l have ever kept to
it, and certainly I will not give it up now. Now, Sir, the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Belfast, in common with
many other Hon. Gertlemer who have addressed the House in
the course of this debate, has referred to a particular expres.
sion I used in-my place in Parliament—not when in Opposition,
but since I have assumed office. It was used by me in 1842,
during the discussion on the Arms' Bill. Now I will beg the
House to remember the circumstances of that Act. I have
stated that some time before a discussion arose relative to this
institution, in the course of which it was announced to the
House that it was the intention of the Government to fulfil a
pledge which they had given in Opposition, to bring forward a
measure for the registration of county voters in Ireland, and
for enlarging the elective franchise in that country. It had
also been announced on the part of the Government, that they
intended to take an early opportunity to bring in a Bill
relative to the regulation of the municipal franchise
in Ireland. That measure was conceived in a spirit which we
had hoped and believed would have been most satisfactory.
Well, we redeemed all our pledges, given while we were in
Opposition, with respect to taking precautions against the con-
tinuance of perjury which mig ofht follow a defective registra-
tion. We took certain precautions which had the effect
preventing a great amount of perjury in Ireland. We brought
were introduced, and almost co-existent propositions,ch they
diretfitodseamndeassuetrtelsedwhpircihnebirpoloulhatntdheinctohuenty franchise upon a
measures were brought forward of a very different character,
certainly, on the part of the Government. It became their duty.
I did
to revive the Arms' Act, and certainly upon that occasion
make use of the expression which has been attributed to me,
b
but really Ido not think it altogether fair that I shouldsu.....
taunted now with having used it, seeing that it Tam tie.
ciently explained in this House soon after it esea d
Pe lreland
e lad
The expression I used was " that concession towards
wifhyetahresiewwhi
that that
had already reached its utmost limits." I saidhayea.
Opposition
ex-
pression, and I regret having used it.—(Loud interests of a
cheers.) I say more, that where the feelings and
expression was explained. I will do more. Jdmit that !
say I am sorry
the part of a Minister is a serious offence.
l can only say that
for having used it. I deeply regret it, and m
heart, my at-
nation are concerned an intemperate or ungarded expression on
upon my conscience, and from the bottom 0fd...2
(Loud cheers. )
tachment to Ireland was better than my r_
Now, Sir, J am bound to say, very much ex-
pression the public mind of Ireland
hbeaveea adverted, after they
ex-
cited, and the measures to which I
notwithstanding they
had received the Legislative sanction, and
ish of the people of
were introduced for the relief and at the w
The Government last year
Ireland, were all but rejected.
that aftv:rentlehad used this
sits on the opposite of
by an Honourable Member who
the Noble Lord—the
the House—l think it was
measure which, without
Member for Tiverton, brought in
State aa
direct endowment of the
proposing on the part of the
acting upon a suggestion which had been thrown out
Roman Catholic clergy, enacted something which was less
troduced by the willing con-
sent•ob-
jectionable in principle. It was in
tion of the wealthy landlords of Ireland, and
enabled them to leave property to the Roman Catholic clergy
and co-opera
which would progress and gradually reach endowments—
(Hear, hear.) I say her A ajesty's Government directed
their attention to that subject, and we introduced
the question into this House after great deliberation.
l
The measure certainly produced an effect which far exceeded
. musttothat productive
ineasureanodf,thtehye
and be
Individually a portion of the Roman
our expectations, and which satisfied us. It was a measure
Catholic clergy had been opposed
gwrheiacthestwouiwould
possibleb e
with great force and strength. On the
resisted it for a time .
other hand, it was supported by oftoet(tiiersthe clergy boldly and
firmly, and they had co-operated
with
usefulthe GovernmentT in
effecting and carryingmeasure... he
d were divided •
in opinion with
hierarchy of Ireland
:eeitinogurseivestha th e treh e
wasßo man
measure, but the majority of them
respect to that
Government in earl. • prig the measure
have since aided the
followed by,
Previous to the Bill which is now under the
into operation.
h sof Ireland contemplated,
Catholic archbishops and bis op . _ sought for an in-
d the question then, for the first time
crease of this grant, an s . . me,
presented itself to us..
h t there
. •►ete—t a was nothing inconsistent
wrong i runty
no-
thing n P
Protestant Sovereign, or to the Pr
with our duty to our os,
consideration of the HoNuvsee.
testant Church in Ireland—to increase
the grant, because
it was not like a direct endowment.—(Hear, hear.)
No ! we were certainly not prepared to endow the
Roman Catholic clergy directly h ; ut
here
is a particular grant
which the Roman Catholichierarchythat there say,
"If you will extend
we will accept," and seeing
rt
duty toreewonaseendoloh jection to it on
principle, we thought it
.ou
gratefullyit. We. give it
and the Roman Catholic clergy accept it. We
' le it is not only justifiable, but •t.
contend that in principle
of the measure
ex-
pedient, and hence the origin we are now die-
Honourable Friend
cussing. Now, Sir, my
don the the Member
for Dublin has commented
Friend the Member for Edinburgh',
Right Honourable
the
money question of this grant
who has, said that
but Hon. Friend
the Member for Bir-
minghamwas unimportant, my .
considers it of great importance. Now, Sir, I must
ofthe Right Hon. Gentleman
the Mem-
bersay that the argument .
oint was •
for Edinburgh on this. p put possibly with rnore
it appeared to me to
than his usual force; and . . be perfectly
In the question which we are now discussing,
triumphant.
the letter at least in the spirit something
there is though not in ,
than the additional sum of money. But, as I
more important
said before, thatif r
s art of the . question has been triumphantly
disposed of.—( ea • e Now, with respect to the reli •sp
I admitthat, •in the year 1785, whenous
part of the question.
.Maynooth was first founded—first recognised by a Parliamen-
taryligious question was then raised, whether a
vote, the religious question
and
Protestant State should establish endow a seminary fur
the Roman Catholic;
exclusively teaching .. . -priesthood—in short,
at all interfering with their ' religious discipline ? I conceive
that to be a grave religious question, and I believe it was so
considered at the time, or Lord Kingsley would not have been
sent over to Ireland in the room of Lord Fitzwilliam, who had
held out, in his speeches as Lord-Lieutenant, expectations to
the Irish people of larger concessions than the Government

J4;VENING, APRIL 18, 1845.

was prepared to give. Be it observed that the elective fran-
chise had been given to the Roman Catholics of Ireland two
yell s before, and when we remember the great numerical supe-
riority of the Roman Catholics of that country over their Pro-
testant fellow-subjects, I must say that even at that time it was
ch•ar, what experience since has proved, that that fundamental
concession must, sooner or later, be the groundwork of the
largest extension of civil and religious liberty. But to return
to the circumstances of 1795. Lord Camden was sent out to
supersede Lord Fitzwilliam; and, although he was nut autho-
rised to go the length which Lord Fitzwilliam had gone in the
promise of civil equality to the Roman Catholics of that coun-
try, yet he was distinctly instructed to propose further indul-
gers. es to her Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in that country:;
and within ten days of his arrival, his first measure, after con-
sulting Lord Chancellor Clare; Agar, Archbishop of Cashel;
Foster, the then Speaker ; and Sir J; Parnell, then Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, was to send to the home Government,
advisedly, the draft of the Act of 1795, which endowed the Col-
lege of Maynooth. The home Government deliberated upon
th proposition. My Right Hon. Friend stated that the Home
Secretary at that time was also at that time Chancellor
of the University of Oxford • and it has been most cor-
rectly stated that, before ihe measure of 1795 was
adopted by them, the Government draft of the Bill was
submitted to the Archbishop of Canterbury. It is im-
possible to conceive more calm deliberation upon any matter.
Well, that Bill became law, and it proceeded in dis-
tinct terms to endow the College of Maynooth as it is now es-
tablished. Yet it is said that we are now discussing for the
first time a Bill which recognises by vote the ex-
istence of the Roman Catholic religion and hierar-
chy in Ireland. But, Sir, I deny that proposition.
There is nothing in the constitution of this country which ren-
dered it impossible, impolitic, or inexpedient to endow a semi-
nary set apart for the Roman Catholics. Without the inter-
ference of religious education, the Government directly recog-
nised the Roman Catholic religion as existing in Ireland with
its hierarchy. How do I endeavour to show that ? First of
a.l, if any bye law was made respecting the College, it should
come to the Lord-Lieutenant, who had the power of giving it
his veto, end when it was thought expedient that trustees
should be appointed, Protestants were appointed as rustees, as
well as Roman Catholics ; and on account of more interference
being displayed in the affairs of the College by those who were
Protestants, it was ultimately thought expedient that they
should be abrogated. But to show the connexion between the
State and the College of Maynooth, it is only necessary to show
that every bye dew must be submitted and has been for fifty
years submitted to the Lord-Lieutenant for his sanction ; they
submit a bye-law and he can veto it, and it can only become a
bye-law by his having given it his veto--(Hear, hear.)
A president of the College cannot enter on his ts•
ties without his having been acceded to by the Lord-
Lientenant. I held in my hand a return which was laid on
the table of the House of Parliament, which showed by the re-
gulations of the College of Maynooth, according to the bye-
laws, the number of students receiving endowments, for they
were fixed to a certain number, which had been distributed
amongst different Bishops of different districts in Ireland, and
there is further stated in this return from Maynooth the name
of each student and the name of each diocese. Now here is a
bye-law sanctioned by the Lord-Lieutenant and laid on the
table by order of the House of Lords, showing how the Roman
Catholic religion and its hierarchy were recognized by the
State. It is stated that all those who object to this grant on
account of the voluntary principle might entertain a double ob-
jection in this case because the grant is about to be increased.
Ido not think that that reasoning is very effective, and if there
is any principle in the objection on the part of the Protestants,
that principle is violated by the application of the public funds
to numerous endowments in the colonies ; they are not only
given to the orthodox Presbyterians, but also every year we
are in the habit of voting a sum to the Presbyterian establish-
ment in Scotland, and to the Dissenters in the Hebrides. I
think that there are no religious grounds for objecting to a
practice which has for so long a time been uninterrupted. I
will not rely on a compact, that has been already argued; I do
not think that there was a compact, but I think that there was
a nominal engagement which the Parliament ought to recog-
nise. Some state that there was a compact, it transpired after
the Union. It has been shown that a compact existed for
twenty years, and, at the expiration of that period, the matter
was reconsidered, and the Government, by the adoption of the
endowment, bound themselves to the contract again. Whether
it is the matter of a compact or of an honorary engagement, I
think that it rests on the strangest possible grounds ;
but I do not wish to rest it on any such grounds.—( Hear,
hear.) I look upon it in this light, that seven millions of
the population of Ireland profess the Roman Catholic
religion.—( Cheers.) I differ altogether from the Hon. Gen-
tleman who has just sat down ; he said that the Roman Ca-
tholic religion was an awful delusion.--( Cheers and laughter. )
I agree with the sentiments laid down in the admirable speech
of the Hon. Member for Devonport ; I am a sincere uncom-
promising Protestant; I am not ashamed to be a Protestant;
hut still I cannot for a moment imagine that the Roman Ca-
tholic religion is an awful delusion.—(Cheers.) I remember
that it is a Christian creed, that it is the creed of the great
majority of Christians—( Hear)—and though there is an impor-
tant difference between the Protestant and Roman Catholic
religion, yet we agree with them in the main points, and to
say that the Roman Catholic religion is an awful delusion,
would be the destruction of every religious hope. Ido not
deny that the policy of Great Britain to that country has been
at different times cruel—(Cheers—but the people always ad-
hered to their religious tenets most uninterruptedly. Penal
laws, penalties and privations have be-n equally unsuc-
cessful in destroying their religious feeling. The Roman
Catholics are now the great majority of the population of the
people of Ireland, and are one-fourth of her Majesty's subjects
in the United Kingdom. You cannot 'interrupt them ; but
they are now willing to accept this small boon in aid of the
education of the clergy who are to be spiritual advisers of the
greater number of the people. Can we then refuse a grant so
accepted and so offered on the grounds of a religious princi-
ple ? On the contrary, I think that the religious principle
has been settled fifty years ago. We cannot
refuse it through pecuniary motives, for such would be beneath
our contempt; it is nothing for us, and it is everything to
those who receive it. I will now refer to what was stated by
my Honourable Friend with respect to the institution itself.
He commented on the miserable appearance of the professors
and students. Why do you keep them beggars and then blame
them for being so?—(Cheers.) They were, after all, the
clergy of the people, and they must be taught.—( Loud
cheers.) I do not believe the assertion that they be-
long to the lower grade of society. They are drawn
not from the lower class, but from the middle class. They
are trusted by the people, and they perform their duty to the
people. There exists the power of constant visitation, and
we have communication with the president, who inspects the
seminary. Mr. Fi ankland Lewis, who was the head of a Com-
mission to inquire into the system of education in Maynooth
in 1826, assures us that he was for two days present at the
College examination, and that the curriculum of ecclesiastical
education was such as to ensure honours in any of the English
Universities. The facility of turning English into Latin,
he says, surprised him, and that, as a literary
seminary, it is by no means to be despised. Now,
let me ask some Honourable Members who have opposed this
measure upon grounds affecting the interests of Irish landed
proprietors, one or two questions. Suppose that certain Mem-
bers of this House happen to be Protestant landlords, and that
they have a Roman Catholic tenantry on their estates, I would
ask these Gentlemen would they prefer an uneducated
population to take charge of the cultivation of
their estates, instead of a number of well-in-
formed, educated gentlemen ?—( Hear, hear.) I be-
lieve I need not wait for a reply.—(Cheers.) I will not go
over the various points already discussed before this House
upon this subject, for I should only weary the House by doing
so, without perhaps strengthening my argument. I shall
therefore content myself by saying that I have the strongest
and deepest conviction that, such is the feeling of grati-
tude in heart in the Irish people, and so keen
their sense of being laid under obligation for fa-
vours conferred, that they will thankfully accept this
measure as a boon, and that the result will be to bind them to
this country by bonds more enduring than any hitherto known,
and that the union between the two countries will become
more lasting than ever, because it will now be consummated by
the blessings of happiness, peace, and good feeling; and I hope
happier days for both countries will: be the result. I do
think, besides, that this measure will tend to the better security
of the Protestant Church, both in this country and in Ireland
—(Cheers)—but I deny that a refusal of it will have any such
effect.—( Hear, hear.) There are many ether important ques-
tions before the Government in reference to Ireland;
but this is one of the most' important of them all,
and, therefore, I tell you that, after having deeply
and painfully reflected upon it, I feel satisfied that no
proposition of the State could be brought forward, the rejec-
tion of which would be attended with more dangerous conse-
quences to both countries.--( Loud cheers from both sides of
the House.) I have listened to the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber, who may well be called the father of this House—he is a
Gentleman of great and many years' experience, and
one of undoubted authority upon all questions upon
which controverted opinions may exist.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear".) That Gentleman has stated frankly and
fairly his opinion upon this subject, but he has also stated
what he considered to be the justice of it more strongly than he
has upon any other measure. And what did that Hon. Mem-
ber say? Why, that he came down to the House last night,
and declared that though no circumstances could compel him
to give a vote upon such a question in favour of it some time ago,
yet he now felt so convinced of its justice and necessity, that he
never gave a vote that afforded him more sincere
gratification, and therefore he gave the measure his most cor-
dial support.—(Loud cheers. ) Some Hon. Member behind
me has laughed; but I say this is no laughing matter; it is a
measure introduced to this House, after having received the
approbation of her Majesty, and above all, it is one that will
be received in Ireland with feelings of the deepest gratitude ;
but the rejection of it would be attended with results that
would spread the greatest dismay in that country, and the
greatest excitement in this.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. MACLEAN next rose to address the House, but he was
speaking for a considerable time before a word he uttered
could be heard in the gallery, owing to his own low tone of
voice, and the continual noise kept up by the incessant crowd
of Members, who thronged the door-way, in their eagerness
to leave the House. He was understood to say that this
proposition of the Government had placed the country in
circumstances of great and peculiar excitement, for he
contended that the proposition was one which involved a
violation of principle. He would ask, was there a doubt
upon the mind of any rational man that the result of this
measure, if carried, would be, that the Government would be
called on to pay the Roman Catholic Clergy ?—( Hear, hear.)
He did not speak in any hostility to that Church. He would
not advert to the arguments respecting the destitution of the
Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) The measure now before the
House went to prevent the evil of which his Hon.
Friend had complained, and he had asserted that it was the
reasonable result of this measure that they would riot send
the Catholic priests into the world to live on the eleemosynary
provision of their flocks; that if they intended to make them
gentlemen, they should not leave them with the prevision of
beggars. He had been much astonished at the speech of his
Right Honourable Friend the Member for Ne-
wark (Mr. Gladstone), who, in the course of his
communications with the Right Honourable Baronet at the
head of the Government, seemed not to have understood
the reasons on which he left the Cabinet, or at.
_least not to

have made them clearly known to the House. If the plea were
to he put forward, that this grant was to be male in considera-
tion of the number of the Roman Catholic subjects of her Ma-

jesty, on what principle, he would ask, was it that they refused
endowments to the numerous congregations of Dissenters?
If the project introduced by her Majesty's Ministers had been
merely for the improvement of academical education, he
(Mr. Maclean) conceived that no objection would have been
made to any such relief to the Roman Catholic subjects of her
Majesty in Ireland. But when the advantage to be con-
ferred on the College of Maynooth, was not only to place
it on a level, but above the position of Oxford, Cambridge,
and Dublin, it was not to be wondered at that in that
House great opposition should have been offered to the mea•
sure, nor could it be matter of surprise that the clergy of the
country should have been opposed to this grant to the College,
when it was recollected what had been the opposition of the
members of the College to the Church of England. And when
he recollected what these doctrines were, he was surprised,
thongh he could not but admire the zeal and ability
which characterised the speech of his Noble Friend the
Alember for Newark (Lord John Manners), when he spoke
of that portion of our eventful history by which:t‘hhe religion of
ea
these kingdoms had been settled, and which he (
must look upon as one of the greatest events in the l I
annalsacl n
o)f,
the country. The Noble Lord had spoken of the stadtholder
of Holland as merely the agent of that Dutch conquest
which had unsettled the Romish religion in these
realms,

but he must continue to think that the stadtholder of Holland
was one of the greatest characters of that history, and that had
it not been for him their country never could have en-
joyed the advantages of religious education which it now pos-
sessed, and those many advantages which had flowed from it.
He could not but congratulate the Right Honourable
Baronet and his Honourable Friend on their obtaining a
new ally in the Honourable Member for Durham, but he
did not think that the Honourable Gentleman was
paying any very distinguished compliment to Ireland, when he
derided the Protestant clergy of England ; and lie conceived that
the Raman Catholic clergy themselves would not feel inclined
to accept this boon as hush money ; and lie thought nothing
would be felt as more insulting than that this should be thrown
to them as a sop, and as hush money to abate their agitation.
He had, indeed, no hesitation in asserting that this hush money
would act neither as a bribe nor as a reason
to induce them to forsake that which they felt to
be their duty. What he would ask on this point, what
was really the case, and what had been the cause of the foun-
dat on of the College of Maynooth. It was notorious that it
had been projected and established for the purpose of prevent-
ing the increase of democratical principles. It was hoped that
at the establishment of a Roman Catholic College that the stu-
dents for the priesthood would provide them with all the fa-
cilities which they required and thus I revent that tendency to-
wards foreign connection which had always been felt as a weak-
ness by England. But what, he would ask, had been the expe-
rience of the last fifty years of Maynooth ? Had that demo-
cratic feeling subsided, or was it not notorious that it had
very largely increased ? Was it not notorious that the whole
of the Roman Catholic clergy were at this moment in a
decided and open opposition to the Government ? Let the
Roman Catholic and the Protestant clergy be com-
pared in their allegiance to the throne, and the inquisition
would soon show the difference of their principles, and he was
led to believe that if their claims were not satisfied that the
principles of the Roman Catholic clergy would be still more
evident. He might cite the opinions of the Hon. Member for
Waterford, of whom it was impossible to speak without senti-
ments of the deepest respect, and whom he believed to be one
of the most useful Members in that House, and in saying this
he intended no disrespect to the Hon. Member for Dungarven,
and he desired to speak so that he should not offend the
moat sensitive feelings. He told them that the course pur •
sued at the College, and the consequences of that course, were
alike calculated to foster feelings of the most earnest affection and
delicate regard for the Establishment to which they were attached.
It was known that the members of the Catholic Church would
stop at nothing in propagating their faith. This measure
would have the effect of establishing twe Churches, and a
bullum intestinum of the most ferocious description would be
the result. Let them remember the words of a great man in
his dying moments—the words which he (Mr. Maclean)
had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary
himself quote—let them remember the words of Lord William
Russell when on the scaffold—" I do believe that Popery is
making great strides in this kingdom, and those who wish to
forward it will hesitate at no step for its advancement, and I
lament that many Protestants lend their helping hand to it."
Mr. S. CRAWFORD then moved the adjournment of the
debate, which was immediately agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned shortly atter Twelve o'Clock.