The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-18 00:00:00

'IRE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY _EVENING. JUNE 1 1844.

pose the same rate of duty on foreign sugar, the produce of
tree labour, as part of the proposition, and whether he intended
to propose any variation on the proposition that was submitted
on Friday night ?
Sir R. PEEL said that in case the House should affirm the
245. duty, he would propose the same amount of duty on
foreign free-labour sugar as was originally proposed.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said, that on Friday night last, he
considered it his duty to support her Majesty's government in
preference to the motion of his Hon. Friend near him. Her
Majesty's Government were then defeated by 20; and he
understood that it was now their intention to put the same
question unaltered again to the House. He had objected to
the course taken by her Majesty's. Governmenton the Factories
Bill. He considered that something more was due to the
opinion of that House when once given than that it should
have the same question submitted for its consideration again.
He thought, therefore, that this question had ceased to be one
with respect to the amount of duty—he- considered it was now
a question of the independence of that House.—( Loud
cheers.) It was a question involving the privileges of the
House ; he would say more, it was a question involving the
personal honour of every Member who forrried part of the
majority of Friday night. Under these circumstances, painful
as it was to him, and taking that extended view of the case,
/Te could not support her Majesty's Government by voting
with them that night.—(Laughter and Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. COLLET T which were totally
inaudible in the Gallery.
Mr. KEMBLE said, he was one of those who generally
supported her Majesty's Government, but he yet felt that
there were questions on which he could not go the full length
of supporting the Government ; and he, therefore, felt he
ought to justify the vote he was about to give on the
present occasion. He was as independent of the
dictation of the Government as any individual either
in or out of that House. On two occasions, two
important occasions, he had :voted against her Majesty's
Government. He alluded to the factory question, and, not
withstanding the declarations of the Prime Minister on that
occasion, he had still felt it his duty, as an independent Mem-
ber of that House, to support the line of conduct which he had
adopted on those two former occasions; and the third time he
again voted in the same way. On the present occasion he was
not about to alter the vote he had given before on the ques-
tion before the House. The Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat down had supported a principle which he believed to be
right, and he stood forward as the advocate of consistency
against her Majesty's Government, and in support of that
consistency he turned round and declared that he would re-
verse the vote which he had given for the benefit of the coun-
try.—( Loud cries of " No, no.") If he had misunderstood
the Hon. Gentleman he begged his pardon. He (Mr. Kem-
ble ) felt it necessary to maintain his consistency. With respect
to this question of the amount of duty, he had no hesitation in
saying that he was opposed to the proposition of the Govern-
ment, and was equally opposed to the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Bristol, and on that account he had abstained
from voting on Friday night, because he could not satisfy him-
self by voting either one way or the other. The question on
which they were about to vote was, whether the duty ou co-
lonial sugar should be reduced to 20s. or not. He considered
that the question was of too great importance to be entertained
in that incidental way on that occasion. He said that the
question was one of large importance, and he had no hesita-
tion in declaring it as his opinion, that if the duty on colonial
sugar were to be reduced, a reduction of 4s. per cwt.
was not that which would give substantial benefit
to West India interests, or be beneficial to the public. He had
not had the opportunity of hearing the discussion on a former
occasion, nor had ho heard the Right Hon. Baronet that even-
ing, but he considered that this was a matter of great impost-
ance with respect to the finances of the country. The incomc-
tax was about to terminate, and it was of the highest import-
ance that the financial situation of the country should be looked
boldly in the face, and, therefore, this question of the sugar
duties required their most serious attention. For these
reasons, he should vote against the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Bristol.
Mr. WARBURTON said the character which the Hon.
Member for Bristol had given of his amendment, contrasted
with the proposition of the Government namely, that it afforded
more protection to the West India interest, had induced him to
vote against it. That was the reason that induced his vote on
Friday last, and, therefore, unless the Honourable Member for
Bristol was prepared to do away with the 4s. discriminating
duty and leave the duty as 20s. on colonial and 30s. on foreign,
he must repeat the vote he had given upon the former occasion.
Sir H. DOUGLAS begged to state it was his decided in-
tention, under present circumstances, to vote with the Govern.
ment.—( Shouts of laughter.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said there was not only the impor-
tant question of the sugar duties before them, but there was
this still more important question, how the course it was pro-
posed to adopt would affect the character of that House ?
(Loud cheers.) He was fully aware that circumstances
might arise when—a Minister having committed an error or
the House acting from misinformation—it would be justifiable
to rescind a vote which had been come to. He had himself sup-
ported Lord Althorp when the vote upon the malt-tax had been
reversed, and he had supported the Bight Hon. Gentleman
( Sir R. Peel) in his conduct upon the Factories Bill, and had
approved the course the Government had taken. Those
were both great and important questions, justified by the cir-
cumstances in which they stood ; but his fears now were upon
the grounds on which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel)
had himself put the present question. In the very unimpor-
tance which had been made of the question, his (Mr. La-
bouchere's) anxiety rested; and further, the language in
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had addressed that House,
was language which no Minister ought to address to it—lan-
guage which Mr. Pitt, even in the plenitude of his power,
would never have ventured to use.—(Loud cheers.) With
regard to the question itself, he had stated his reasons for his
vote so fully on Friday last, that be did not feel it necessary
to enter again upon the subject. As he said then,
so he thought now, that whilst the measure was far
from perfect, still, in the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Bristol (Mr. Miles), he found so much more benefit to the con-
sumer than in the proposition of the Government, that he must
give it his support. He begged, however, to give notice that,
at the proper time, if no one else proposed it, he should him-
self submit a proposition to the House, to put an extra duty of
4s. on the highly-refined sugars from our own colonies—that is,
to make the duty on the fine clayed colonial 245., and on the
the fine clayed foreign 345. He thought if they applied the
discriminating principle to the foreign sugars, it would be better
to apply. it as well to the colonial. With regard to the charge
of conspiracy brought against him and his friends on that side
of the House, he wholly repudiated as inapplicable to any par-
ties, and least of all to himself. When the notice on the subject
of the sugar duties was given he was in Somersetshire, and on
his return to town he found that he had actually misunderstood
the purport of the amendment. The first time he heard of
the intention of his friends to support the amendment was in
that House, and if there was a conspiracy, all he could say was,
that it must have originated across the table of that House.—
( Heir, hear.) He should regret, indeed, if the House re-
versed that night the decision it had arrived at on Friday last,
because he was sure that such a step would have a tendency to
lower that House in the eyes of the people. He hoped the
time never would come when any majority of that House would
consent to support a Government upon such terms and in such
a manner as the Right Hon. Gentleman had considered it
essential to the safety of his Ministry to attempt to force upon
them.
Sir R. PEEL, in explanation, said the word conspiracy had
not been used by him. All that he had said was to express
his opinion that what had happened on Friday night had, to
repeat his words, " taken place with previous concert."
Mr. D'ISRAELI said he was not present at the debate on
Friday night, and therefore he was not acquainted with the
movements of those conspirators, who now were merely called
combinators—( A laugh)—and therefore he was naturally some-
what astonished at that which had transpired. But he was
more astonished to hear that they were called, at four o'clock,
to witness the painful sight of the resignation of a Ministry ;
and, under present circumstances, and seeing how matters
stood, lie could not refrain from congratulating the House that,
instead of witnessing the resignation of the Administration,
they had only witnessed the Prime Minister move an amend-
ment.—( Laughter.) There certainly were to be found cases
analogous to the present one. There was the case of the malt
tax, some years ago, when Lord Althorp induced the then
Hon. Members to rescind a vote they had deliberately come
to. He (Mr. D'lsraeli) was not in the House at that time,
though he had read and heard a good deal of the proceedings
which then took place, and he knew that step was
alluded to by eminent men of both parties in
the country as most extraordinary, and only to be
excused by the inexperience of a House that had
but then been reconstructed. Well, several years elapsed be-
fore a similar circumstance occurred, and that was very re-
cently, when they had been called upon to rescind a vote which
had vastly interested the great body of the nation, and the
House had submitted to that process which men of great ex-
perience some years before had accepted with great reluctance,
and as the result of an overbearing necessity.—( Hear, hear.)
And now only a month had passed—one month only—and that
House was again to be brought before the country—( Cheers)
—under circumstances, he could not help saying, that no man,
whatever aide of the House he might belong to, could only de-
scribe as such as must have an inevitable tendency to degrade
the charaeter of them all in the eyes of the people --(Loud
cheers.) It was possible that Ministers might retain power by
this stern process—(Hear, hear)—but he for one certainly
mistook the character of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert
Peel) if he supposed he could much value power retained by
means so extraordinary, if not unconstitutional.—( Great cheer-
ing.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)
should treat with a little more delicacy his supporters under
these circumstances—(Cheers)—and, for his part, he thought
they had a tight to hope that he should not unnecessarily drag
them through the mire. _( Loud laughter and cheers.) They
were dragged through in May—(Laughter)—they were again
to be dragged through in June ( Loud laughter) or,
at all events, the Right Honourable Gentleman said
to them, unless you rescind the vote you came to, I will not
continue to bear the responsibility of office.—( Hear, hear. )
He did think they had a right to expect from the Right
lion. Gentleman, after all that had happened, that he should
place them in a position as little degrading as possible.—
(Laughter and cheers.) In his (Mr. D'lsraeli a) opinion, those
who managed the details of these affairs should frame a sort of
tariff of Parliamentary disgrace—(Cheers)—that might tell
them at what price came the prospect of the shades of private
life.—( Loud laughter and cheers.) It would say to them "thus
far may you go and no farther ;" we have guaged your inde-
pendence—go no further or you will have to submit to the pub-
lic disgrace of recanting your own votes, or we must submit
to retire into private life. —(Roars of laughter.) Why, in the
year 1841, when the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) op-
posed the motion of the Noble Lord (John Russell), he
said he had never entered into, and never would enter into the
slavery cry, and he never would enter into that of cheap sugar.
only two years had elapsed, and they now found what he said
and did, not only about slavery, but about cheap sugar—( Loud
cheers)—and seeing that, he chooses to stake his ministry upon
this conduct, and expects his supporters to lose their characters
in order to sustain his ministry.—( Loud cheers.) He detests
slavery in every place except on the benches behind him.—
( Great cheering.) He repeated they must recollect this was
the second time this session they had been called upon to res•
chid their votes, and therefore it would be better for the honour
of that House—better for the honour of the Prime Minister
himself—that that system should terminate.—(Loud cheer-
ing.) The Right Honourable Gentleman himself, from his
undoubted talents, deserved a better fate than that he should
constantly be replaced and continued in power by menacing his
friends and cringing to his opponents.—( Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman denied calling them conspirators; he merely
charged them as conspirators, which reminded him (Mr.
D'lsraeli) of the defence of Fieschi, who denied that he bad
entered into a conspiracy, but acknowledged being party to a
combination.—( A laugh.) He obtained power through the
votes of the men whom he tried to coerce—he offered to them
no distinct policy of his own—(Cheers)—nothing that they
could count upon—no distinctive line whatever—( Hear, hear)
and yet he started amazed if any one dared to oppose any
new doctrine which he himself might think fit to take up.-
-( Great cheering.) He thought that his system—and he was
at least learned in Parliamentary ways—was the right one to
adopt ; but he ( Mr. D'lsraeli), for one, believed that it could
not tend to the honour of the House, or the honour—which he
respected—of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself—( Hes r,
hear)—and he might be excused, if, on this, as on a former
occasion, he registered his vote for the same purpose, and in
the same spirit, and if he did not follow the example of the
Gallant Officer ( Sir H. Douglas), but endeavour to show that,
at least, as he had given it not without thought, so he should
not change it without purpose.—(Hear, hear.) And whatever
might be the consequences so mysteriously referred to by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, certainly he, for one, if he should have
to appear again on the hustings, should not think lie had a lees

if there is a distinction with regard to foreign sugar, we
ought to make a similar distinction with regard to colo-
nial sugar. It appears that such was the opinion of Mr.
Deacon Hume, and that appears. from a letter in the
newspapers, to be the opinion of Mr. Gladstone. 'He
proposed a duty of ss. additional in case of colonial
sugar, and 7s. 6d. in regard to foreign sugar. I think
we have the practice in the United States and Holland
in favour of that example. I should be glad to hear
from the Hon. Member for Bristol, when he comes to
that part of the proposition, why it is that he thinks it
absolutely necessary to entertain a duty of 345. ;
or what objection he can have to a 245. -dot)
in the case of colonial sugar? But, Sir, this is matter of
detail in regard to the Hon. Member's proposition.
What the Right Hon. Gentleman now proposes is, that
the House should agree to that which they negatived
the other night—that they should positively affirm that
as expedient which they then declared to be inexpedient.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, as I understand him, does
this as much on political as on commercial grounds.—
(Cheers.) He declares that it is necessary to him to
have that confidence from his supporters that they will
be ready to agree with him in this proposition. I should
say, as I commenced by observing, that it would be a
melancholy proof of their own subserviency.—(Cheers.)
That question has been fully argued, and in that full
argument, and by the number of twenty in a full House,
the Committee decided against the proposition of the
Government. Again I say, that I see no reason for that
majority to change their votes. But let me tell those
who voted the other night, that if they now agree to
the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Righ
Hon. Gentleman will treat them with the same disre-
gard in future—will treat their opinion in the same
overbearing manner.—(Cheers.) Let them depend on
it, that however they may consider themselves as a ma-
jority of the House of Commons, that their opinions and
their views will hereafter have no weight ; that the
Right Hon. Gentleman being once assured of their sup-
port, would be enabled to make propositions which they
might think most injurious to the country ,• but having
given this proof of subserviency, they will find them-
selves unable to recover their independence, which will be
gone at once and for ever.—(The Noble Lord resumed
his seat amidst loud cheering.)
Mr. MILES—I trust, Sir, that I shall not be trespassing
on the time of the Committee if I now make a few observa-
tions. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Go-
vernment told us that he thought some conspiracy had been
entered into with the other side of the House. That, Sir, 1
beg to deny in Coto.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord, the Mem-
ber for the City of London, has correctly stated the reasons
why I altered the motion of which I originally gave notice. It
is quite true that I gave notice for a reduction of the duty from
245. to 20s. in the first instance on sugar, the produce of our
colonial possessions. In the first debate which took place on
that question the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, asked me what hope I could have of perma-
nently maintaining that duty. In that same debate the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Taunton, said, as I under.
stood him, that he would support a reduction of duty to 20s.
and 305., and he also seemed to say, from what I could gather
from him, that he would be inclined to support a dis-
criminating duty. I also recollect that the Noble Lord, in
1841, proposed a discriminating duty of 6s. I hope that her
Majesty's Government will give the West India body credit
for having gone to them on several occasions, and told them
that they considered that this measure, in the present state of
the West Indian colonies, would amount to almost ruin, and
that it ought not to be proposed until after a large immigration
of Coollie labour had taken place. But, Sir, her Majesty's
Government refused to listen to them, and it was for that
reason that they framed this measure, which was calculated
to give them a larger amount of protection than the proposition
of her Majesty's Government. I confess, Sir, that I heard
with regret the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman that
he intends to persevere in his Bill. I think, Sir, that it
would only have been paying a due deference to the majority of
this House for him to have postponed his measure until another
se,sion ; he would not then have placed a large body of his
supporters on this side of the House in the painful position of
either supporting him or withdrawing altogether from the
House. I have undertaken t.e responsibility of advocating the
cause of the West Indian body, and I do not now intend to
shrink from that duty.—( Loud cheers.) I can only say, in
addition, that I will certainly take the sense of the House on
the amendment which I have proposed.—( Cheers.) The
Noble Lord opposite put a question to me about the discrimi-
nating duty ; I can answer that I think tke whole of the West
India body would have no objection to a discriminating duty
of 4s. on colonial sugar, but there is a very great opposition to
it from the East India hody.—( Hear, hear. ) I can safely say
that I myself have no objection to a discriminating duty of 4s.
I now, Sir, move the amendment which has been placed in
your hand.
Sir R. PEEL moved that the blank be filled ap with 245.
The CHAIRMAN ( Mr. Greene) said he apprehended
that the course they would have to pursue would be, to make
amendments in the proposition as they went on, and that the
proposition should then be put as amended.
Lord HO WICK wished to know whether, after they had
discussed the question of amount of duty, they could make any
alteration as to the time at which the duty should commence ?
The CHAIRMAN apprehended that they must amend the
proposition as they went on.
Mr. BERNAL said, there were two very important points
for their consideration. He entertained very considerable
doubt himself as to whether in a Committee of a fiscal nature,
the Committee having determined that the duty of 245.
should not be imposed, they could reconsider the imposition of
the same duty.—(Hear, hear.) He had not examined any
precedents on the subject, but it was his opinion, that they
could not reconsider that question. That Commitee was an ad-
journment of a former Committee on the B 11. In the course
of the former Committee, they rejected the propo-
sition originally introduced, that 245. duty should be imposed
on a cwt. of sugar. That was rejected, and when the motion
of his lion. Friend was brought forward to reduce that annual
charge on the public, it was held that they could re-open the
questioninau e T of the
The
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bmoefiatt24l. duty could be reconsidered as part of the proposition.
The Hqo. Gentleman was right in saying that the lower
duty must be put first, and the question would
therefore
s irR .
PEELbe, that
apprehendedll. snfl
that as
part of
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proposition.
three guineas
had been negatived by.
the
Committee, it was competent for
thorn to propose the 245. duty as a substitute.
After a few words from Lord J. Russell, Mr. Hume, and
Mr. Roebuck, which were inaudible in the gallery,
Sir G. GREY said that the Right Hon. Gentleman, by the
present amendment, proposed to adopt pro tanto the words
which were negatived the other night. He (Sir G. G.) wished
to ask, before they came to a vote, whether, supposing this
. vote to kgcarried: the Rijht Hon, Gentleman intended to pro.

claim on the confidence of those who sent hi is to that House,
because he had not, within forty-eight hours, eitlng,ed,his vote,
from being menaced by a Prime Minister.—(Cheers.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS begged to say that he had
changed neither his opinion nor his vote. He had disapproved
of the propoaition of the Government and had voted against it ; !
he disapproved also of the proposal of tha Member for Bristol,
and should oppose that also.
Lord SANDON said he thought the proposal, of the Hon.
Member for Bristol was a good one, and he should continue to
approve it, and he regretted that the Government did not
adopt it, or something of the kind. He had also heard with
regret what had-fallen front his Noble Friend, not so much in
connection with the present question, as front the principle he
seemed to lay down, which seemed to ke this—that on no oc-
casion was the Government to be left in a m nority that it
would not be considered as a vote of want of confidence. If the
minority were small, still it showed a want of confidence ; if it
were large, the inference would be still stronger ; and whatever
the subject might be, whether sugar, or a bishopric of North Wales,
whenever there was a combination of parties he was afraid the
decree had gone fsrth that a vote of a majority of that House,
whenever it did not agree with the opinion of the Government,
was to be considered a vote of want of confidence. This was
a scheme of Government which had never been tried by any
party, Whig, Tory, or Radical, and in a country like this would
not only render this but every other Government impossible.
He the more regretted this, ns he should, io consequence of it,
he debarred as an independent Member from lending it that
efficient support which he could wish. With regard to the
particular question at issue, he believed that the proposition of,
the Hon. Member was an improvement on that of the Govern-
ment. He begged the West India interest not to exaggerate
the crisis. He believed the natural advattages of the West
Indian colonies were so great, both with respect to climate and
soil, that when the system of free labour should be developed,
they would have no reason to despond.
Mr. SHEIL wished to say a few words on this subject. He
should not follow the example of Hon. Gentlemen on the other
side, who had spoken more unkindly of her Majesty's Govern-
ment than he was disposed to do. As for the Noble Lord who
had just sat down, he seemed to be one of those who, in the
words of Pope, could

would be able to maintain the discriminating duty of
635. They had always looked for a reduction of -the duty on
foreign sugar. but at the same time they expected some
beneAt for themselves. --„( Hear, hear.) Without going at all
into the question, how the reduction in price was to be dis-
tributed, no doubt existed in his mind that both the planter and
the consu ner would be benefited by the proposed reduction of
4s. The condition of the West India planter was precisely the
same a 3 that of the English agriculturist. These were his reasons
for supporting the proposition of his Hon. Relative. He was
sorry that the question had been taken up as it had been by the
Government o, the country.--(Hear.) He thought that when
it had been intimated that the sugar duties were next year to
be put upon a different basis, they would have come forward
and stated what their proposition was, in order that the
House mig:it ei her assent to, or dissent from their proposal.
Bat, instead of this, they had determined, notwithstanding an
adverse decision, to force upon the House their own proposition.
lie could assure the Government that those high Conservative
principles which they advocated were his own ; but, at the same
time, he must hive the power of freely and independently ex-
excising his vote ; and he conceived that he raised his party
higher by exercising that poser when, in questions of detail,
he differed from the Government, than by obsequiously follow-
ing every movement of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) He
trusted that the majority which had supported his Hon. Rela-
tion the other tight would not forget the duty they owed to
themselves, to the country, and to those who had sent them
there ; but that whatever might be the effect, they would again
record their opinions in favour of the West Indian agricul-
turisti,..—( Cheers )
Mr. B. ESC° IT said he had been so severely attacked,
that he trus,ed the House would allow him to say one word.
He called upon his Hon. niend, in justice to him and to his
o.vn character, after charging him (Mr. Escott) with renounc-
ing his former opinions and contradicting his former principles,
to po'nt oat one single instance in which le had avowed prin-
ciples or opinions incansistent with those which he had avowed

that evening.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. W. MILES said, of course, he could only speak on the
authority of the newspapers. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Escott)
however, had oppo ed his /lon. Friend opposite (Mr. Sand-
ford) a; a compete protectionist. —( Hear, hear. )
Mr. B. ESCO CT—No, no.--( Laughter. )
Lent HOW ECK said he certainly did think that the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last had very sufficiently answered the
clatre,e made against him. He had, however, heard with great
satisfaction the statement of the Hon. Member (Mr. B. Es-
cott) that the people of England were not in favour of anti-
quated monopolies; and he trusted that when they came to
discu=s the corn-laws they would have before them in his speech
and vote the undoubted proof of his sincerity.—(Laughter. )
but his object in rising was to say that it really did appear to
him most extraoriinary that the House should be
called upon to rescind its former vote upon the
grounds which had been stated that evening.—( Hear, hear.)
He thought that those gentlemen who had heard the statement
of the Right Hen. Baronet and the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bristol mast be satisfied that the arguments of the
Right Hon Baronet were not such as could warrant the House
in retracing the step which they had taken.—(Cheers.) He
thought that the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol
was a just and fair one.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
everything which could be done to assist the West India inte-
rest in their difficulties ought to be done. What he understood
from the measure ot the Government was, that the West Indies
should have a protection of IN. against the produce of free
labour. The Member for Bristol had not objected to re-
duce the duty upon foreign sugar, but he wished at the same
time that colonial produce should also be favoured by a reduc-
tion of duty, which would have the effect of cheapening the
article, enlarging the market, and benefiting at once the West
India interest and the consumer. He thought that•vvas a
most just proposition.—(Cheers.) His Right Hon. Friend near
him had made a proposition which would remove any difficulty
which might eeist in coming to such an arrangement. He
was confirmed in that opinion by what had fallen from
the President of the Board of Trade, on the subject of the dif-
ferent duties to be imposed upon different qualities of sugar.—
( Hear, hear.) There had been but one objection argued by
the Right lion. Baronet, which seemed to him to have con-
siderable force—that was, that the effect of the proposition of
the Hon. Member for Bristol would be to throw an undue
advantage into the bands of those traders who had stock, and of
the retailers, who would gain at the expense of the public.
However, that objection might be met by bringing the altera-
tion into effect at an earlier period, say the sth of July.—
(Chieers.) As to the distinction between slave-grown sugar
and the produce of free labour, it was only the Government
that set any value on that argument.—( Hear, hear.) But then
the Right Hon. baronet said that they were bound by the
treaty to place Brazil upon the same footing with the most fa-
voured nation. Why then should the Brazilians not be placed
upon the same footing as the most favoured nation, and give
them what aiventage they might obtain in three or four months,
until the treaty could be settled? That could not encourage
slavery in Brazil. He hoped the House was not going to re-
scind the decidon to which it had come. He had
heard with astonishment the statement of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that the object of Bills
being read several times was to give the House au op-
portunity of reconsidering its opinions, and of preventing
surprise. It was true the object of the forms was to prevent
surprise, but it certainly was not to institute or keep up a cus-
tom of rescinding deliberate votes, at the will of the Ministry.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the House three or four
times, that if they did not rescind their votes, he should regard
it as a withdrawal of confidence.—(Cheers.) This had oc-
curred on the Factories Bill, the Welsh Bishoprics, and on a
financial measure. lie thought if such obsequiousness to the
Government was expected from the House, it would save much
trouble if, at the beginning of the session, the House should
pass a vote of unlimited confidence in the Ministry.—(Cheers,
and laughter.) But it was not in the power of the Right
Hon. baronet to resign upon this question. It was impossible
for them to go to the country upon a question of a differential
duty of as. per cwt. But the Right Hon. Baronet had in-
formed the lieuse that there was something behind, that there
were other a d less ostensible differences between him and his
ordinary supp rters.—(Cheers. ) He (Lord Howick) believed
that this was the case. Ile believed that the Government was
supported by gentlemen who did not agree with the Govern-
ment on the important question of trade and finance.—
, ( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) That was a state of
things Sit creditable to the Government, or to the
House. Teo or three times Ministers were on the point of
resigning ritliee, and were only enabled to retain their places by
compelling their supporters to rescind their votes. The circum-
stance I rim which that had arisen had been stated by his Noble
Friend (Lord J. Russell). When the Right Hon. Baronet
was out of office, an impression prevailed in the House and in
the country, that he entertained opinions on trade and finance
very different from those upon which he had acted since he
came into power.—( Cheers.) The Government was now
under the pressure of enlightened opinion out of doors, with
which the convictions of their own minds agreed, and they held
the opinions of free trade as much as he did. There was a
feeling of disappointment on the minds of those who supported
the Govererneet, and Hon. Gentleman and Noble Dukes were
heard to declare that they were not satisfied with Ministers,
but were mere dissatisfied with those who might take their
places —( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Government had
not the support of those who advocated protection for do-
mestic interests, and on the other hand those who were opposed
to mischievous impositions, such as the present corn-laws
were, could place no confidence in them. The consequence
was, that doubt and uncertainty to a most pernicious extent
egitateil every interest in the country, agricultural, ma-
nufacturing, and commercial. The only way to put an end
to such a state of things was by the Government adopting de-
cidedly and boldly either the principle of free trade, or express-
ing a bona
.fide determination to uphold things as they were.—
( Great cheering.) They claimed to have a majority of the
House and the country, and if they honestly held that opinion
there w.s nothing to prevent their adopting one decided
course. If the contest was to end in removing restrictions, the
sooner, surely. it was put an end to the better. He did not,
from a'l had he seen, anticipate at present any change in
the manner in witch the affairs of the country would be con-
ducted. There was a rottenness in the present state of things,
and the moment the country was subject to tempests sueh a
state of things must lie done away with. Was it not better
then ho endeavour to do away with them when the country
was in a state of peace ? He was persuaded that the continu-
ance of this sort of anarchy—for he could call it nothing else—
would be attended with the worst results to the best interests
of the country.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord Stanley, Lord Clive, and Mr. Borthwick, rose together,
amid loud cries of " Divide, divide." Lord Stanley caught the
Chairman's eye, but gave way to
Lord CLI%'E, who stated it to be his intention to vote that
evening in the same way he did on Friday night.—( Hear.)
Lord :STANLEY then addressed the House. The Noble
Lord on the other side of the House had appealed to the pride
and sense of honour in the House whether it would re-
.scind a vote it had formerly given. The Noble Lord had
done injustice to his Right Hun. Friend in supposing that in
his observations he had held out any threat. What he had
stated was, that standing in the situation of the Government,
it vres their bounden duty to state to the House the position in
which they felt themselves placed by the vote of the House,
though not exclusively on Friday. He stated that they thought
it was due to the position of the Government to consider
the situation in which they stood, not on this
question atone, but other measures that had been brought for-
ward in the pi esent session ; and his Right Hon. Friend at the
same time stated that if they did net possess the confidence and
support ef the House, it was idle for them to attempt to carry
on the affairs of the country. The Noble Lord had drawn a
picture of this country, which, if true, was a conclusive argu-
ment for their declaring that if they had not the confidence of
either party, it was incompetent for them to carry on the busi-
ness ot the country. The Noble Lord had also said that the
present Government had created a very different notion as to
the views they entertained on commercial subjects when out of
office to what they had done whilst in. Now, where, he would
ask, had they creat ed that sentiment? Certainly not in the mind
of the Noble Lord opposite, for he had said it had not come
upon him unt xpectedly. The Noble Lord Wad said, you admit
the principles of free trade, why not carry them out? Why,had
they not been taunted by the other side with only being free
traders in the abstract ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had then
said that it was admitted by all that we ought to buy in the
cheapest and sell in the dearest market. He admitted that
doctrine in the abstract, but in the application of it they would
not injure those great interests that had risen up in this country
and the colonies. The Noble Lord then stated
that the Government were supported by a body of men
who only supported them because they disliked their
opponents' views. That was the condition of every Govern-
ment ; but he believed that the Noble Lord was entirely mis-
taken in taking the view he had done of the great Conserva-
tive party in this country. He believed that the whole of that
body were perfectly satisfied with the cautious course pursued
by his Right Hon. Friend, and that the agriculturists were net
likely to be deluded by the friendship of the Noble Lord to
ruin themselves by advocating the principles of free trade. The
Noble Lord had stated it was time the present state of
thines should be done away with, and which might be
done in two ways ; but he (Lord Stanley) did not be-
lieve that either of the ways pointed out by the No-
ble Lord would attain the ends he had in view. What-
ever might be the fate of the Government, so long as they
were supported by a majority of that House, they would con-
tinue to maireain that steady, cautious course—(Laughter and
ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—they
would advocate temperate and well-considered measure of im-
provement which would be best calculated for the rational pro-
tection of the main and leading interests of the country, and
for the development of our national resources. But if the
Noble Lord could not succeed by an appeal to the passions and
pride of Hon. Members on that side of the House, if he could
not foment any dissensions, or produce any divisions in the
Cathervative ranks—if the agricultural Members would not
be attracted, he thought he could succeed in placing the advo-
cates of the West Indian interests under his guidance and pro-
sec ion.—( Hear, hear.) The Government, he candidly ad-
mitted, called upon the House to reconsider its vote of Friday
night, and the plan proposed by the Government. He ad-
mitred that the measure of the Government had been con-
sknined by a majority of ten.—(" No, twenty.") Yes, twenty.—
to the table with
consent Laughter.)
combination
Members on that side of the House.
I.ord JOIIN RUSSELL—There was no combination.
lie would
bneottw geom into
the any question o f
a npdre Hon.vlous
Lol..„olradod— STANLEY—What no concert between
the a
Lord JOHN RUSSELL (advan
(a
marked emphasis)—The Noble Lord is entirely mistaken.
L he
o d STANLEY
f awouldprevious not, as h
House to deliberate and compare the project of the Govern-
ment with that of the honourable Member for Bristol. I
admit that the West India interest are entitled to protection in
concert; a
had
into

-
"condescend
Sometimes to call the Minister his friend !"
He could assure the Right Hon. B trooet that he was under a
mistake if he supposed that there had been any combination or
conspiracy on this question. He believed the Right Hon.
Gentleman was under an entire misapprehension if he thought
there was any premeditated arrangement between his sup-
porters and those who generally opposed him. '1 his was the
question, putting individual considerations aside. The
proposition was one for making sugar cheaper. In
reference to this discussion, he looked back to the debate
on Mr. Huskisson's proposition in 1819. That proposition was
agreed to by the Cabinet, and was one for reducing the duty
on foreign sugar to 283. Air. Huskisson then argued that,
though the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipated from it
a decrease of the revenue to the amount of 500,0301. annually,
yet the reduction of price would benefit the public more than
t would injure the revenue. Now, if the doctrine of Mr.
Huskisson were correct, let them try the two propositions be-
fore the House by the principle thus laid down, and they must
come to the conclusion that a reduction in the price of sugar
must be the result of one propo,ition in a far greater degree
than of the ether. That being conceded, he thought there
ought to be no difference with respect to the choice they ought
to come to.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER met the ar-
gument quoted from Mr. Haskisson in the same manner as he
had met the argument of the Hon. Member for Taunton, by
contending that an increased demand for sugar, consequent on
a reduction of price, would immediately throw a great advan-
tage into the hands of those who alone had the means of at
present supplying the market. This would raise the price to
the consumers, and he contended that it was ab•olutely neces-
sary, before making a large reduction in the sugar duties,
they should give such notice to those countries producing free-
labour sugar as to enable them to furnish a larger supply of that
necessary article. It had been stated that the course taken by
the Government on the present occasion was quite unprece-
dented, because they called for the revision of a vote to which
the House had previously come. They were told that to sub-
mit to the House a question which had been previously
negatived or affirmed, was degrading to it.—( Hear. )
In that case, of what use were the forms of the
House which enabled them repeatedly to bring the same ques-
tions under consideration ? It was admitted that this was done
in a very signal manner on the subject of the malt-tax, when
the House was called on to rescind its vote not as now during
the progress of the Bill. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury
had indulged in a speech affirming that the Right Hon. Baro•
net had not the confieleuce of all who supported hint. He had
seldom heard a speech so derogatory to the character of the
House—( Hear, hear)—and the Hon. Gentleman should, at
all events, be the last to complain, for, from the tenor of his
speech it was evident that he had for a long time harboured
in his mind the sentiments which he displayed.—Hear, hear.)
He should be the last person to complain that the Government
abused the confidence reposed in them. The question under
consideration was, whether they should take off 4s. from the
245. duty. With regard to that proposition, they thought it
would injure the revenue without benefiting the consumer.
The estimate of loss to the revenue was pretty much the same
as when Mr. Huskiston brought the subject under con-
sideration. They had been asked what consideration a loss
of 500,00 1. was when they had such a large surplus ? Why,
the way to contract debts and to have a deficient revenue, was
to proceed in such a course. It was on this ground that he
should continue to resist the motion of the Hon. Member for
Bristol.
Mr. P. MAXWELL STEWART said that none
of the grounds alleged by the Government in support
of their proposition were well founded, in his opinion.
He did not agree with the Right Honourable Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the es' imates which
he made of the sugar which would come in under this pro-
position. He denied the statement of the Right Honourable
Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade with respect
to Java. He had it, on the authority of a Java planter, that
sugar was produced there under a forced system, which might
be considered a description oF mitigated slavery. under which the
produce of sugar had increased twenty-five times in the course
of ten years. But he did not mean to say that ought to exclude
them under this Bill. The Government had, by their propo-
sition, produced the greatest stagnation in the West India
trade. They had now the lowest average price for six years.
The price that day was 345. Ids, and the stock in hand was
8,000 tons more than the stock in hand in the corresponding
period of last year. It was impossible that the adoption of the
motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol could increase the suf-
fering which had prevailed in consequence of the conduct pur-
sued by the Government. Persons did not know what to do,
because they were doubtful of what would be the result of their
deliberations in that House. Was that a fitting way to treat
a great colonial interest? But there was more than this.
The Right lion. Gentleman, the President of the Board of
Trade, told them that they were in a state of transition. He
had been an advocate for an alteration of the duties, but the
Government had by their conduct treated the colonial interest
with insult, not meant perhaps, but certainly real. The ar-
gument of the Right Hon. B tronet was unworthy of him. He
put forward the alterations of the tariff, but the Right Hon.
Gentleman had not allowed time to see what the effect of
the tariff was, for he had himself altered it in essential points.
He denied that the proposition of the Hon. Member for
Bristol would risk the revenue, and that it would benefit
the consumer he thought there could be little doubt. His
Hon. Friend the Member for :Manchester and other free
traders were standing on this occasion between the con
sumers and the colonists.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend
said he was going to vote fur the Hon. slember for Bristol,
but he was enlightened by going to the other side of Temple-
bar—(A laugh)—and voted with the Government. his Hon.
Friend had given an explanation of his conduct, and said
that he thought this was a trap. He (Mr. Stewart) was
of opinion that his Hon. Friend did not mend matters by
his explanation, and he would have been more discreet if
he followed the " Trappists"—(A laugh)—and remained silent.
He was sure they ought, looking to the interests of the
consumer and the colonist, to uphold the vote to which they
had come on Friday evening.
Several Members here rose to address the House, among
whom was Mr. Entwisle, for whom loud cries were made from
all parts of the House.
Mr. ENTWISLE said it was with the greatest pain that
he found himself compelled, at such an early period of his in-
troduction to that House, to oppose the measure brought for-
ward by her Majesty's Government, as a supporter of whom
he had been sent to represent his constituents ; but it had been
in defence of a principle to which he had taken frequent occa-
sion to announce his adherence, namely, that of affording a
fair protection to the produce of the labour of all British
subjects.—( Hear, hear.) It was en that principle that the
contest was fought in which he was lately engaged, and he
should not desert that principle now.—( Hear, hear.) They
had an admission of the Government that their measure was
hardly equivalent to the necessities of the case. It seemed
to be agreed on all hands that there was a strong necessity
for immigration of labour into the colonies, and that without
such immigration it was impossible for the West Indian proprie-
tors to cope with the foreign grower of sugar. In the state of
transition which had been so frequently alluded to, it appeared
to him that the protection proposed by the Government must
be insufficient before an immigration of labous had taken place,
and it was en that ground he conceived that the measure of the
Hon. Member for Bristol was proposed, for giving increased
protection. Whatever might be the effect upon the revenue,
it waa brought on by the proposal of the G svernment them-
selves. However, having recorded his vote in favour of the
Hon. Member's proposition on a previous occasion, he would
not further mix himself up with that party epposite, to whose
views he was opposed. He would decline on that occasion to
register his vote in connection with theirs.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said he could not understand how this
proposition could be supported both on the ground of increas-
ing the supply of the people of this country and increasing the
protection of the West India proprietors. Ile agreed with
much that had been said on the other side, and amongst
other things in which he agreed, was the evil of holding one
opinion one day and the opposite on another.—(Hear, hear. )
He had heard an Hots. Member opposite (Mr. P. M. Stewart )
in one part of his speech argue fur increased protection, and
in another part for an increased supply ; but lie could not at
all understand such an argument, nor could he understand how
his Hon. Friend the Member for Somersetshire (Mr. W.
Miles), or any other Hon. Member in that House, could sup•
port the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bristol on such
grounds. Allusion had been made to the possibility of the re-
signation of Ministers, but he believed the Right Honourable
Baronet, the Secretary of State, would strengthen his position
in the country if he were to adopt that course.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that the people of England were not. attached to
these antiquated monopolies which some in that House were
inclined to support.—(Opposition cheers.) Although, on the
other hand, they were not disposed immediately to abolish all
protection to British interests, they wished to go on gradually
with the work of amendment, because that was the only way
of proceeding safely. He protested against the course pursued
by the Hon. Member for Bristol, and supported by so many on
that side of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He challenged the
Hon. Member for East Somersetshire ( Mr. W. Miles) to prove
how the adoption of his Hon. Relative's motion could help the
West Indians out of their difficulties.—( Hear, hear.) In con-
clusion, he begged to say that he could not give his support to
the proposition before the House,
Lord Howick, Mr. Miles, and several other Members
here rose to address the House, amidst loud cries of " Divide,
divide," all of whom gave way to
Mr. W. MILES, who said that although he himself was not
interested in the West India colonies, yet, as his nearest and
dearest connections were, he could not give his vote on that oc-
casion without making one or two observations. When his
Hon. Friend the Member for Winchester had so far forgotten
his position in the county of Somerset, that when scarcely two
or three years had passed, ho could gulp down all the senti-
ments fur which he contended at two contested elections for
the western division of that county, then, indeed, it was not
for him to talk about principle. —(Cheers.) They should not
measure their corn by the Winchester bushel.—(Cheers and
laughter.) He had been perfectly astoni.hed at the doc-
trine which the Honourable Gentleman had laid down.
whilst taunting with incensistency many of those by whom
he as
tolanguage which he had used ap-
peared extraordinary. Ile had asked him
how the West Indian and the consumer could both be benefited
was
odebde.
most Th e
at the same time? Now what was the Government propo-
sition? To reduce the duty on foreign sugar from 635. to 245. ;
but they did not realise by one farthing the duty now paid
upon West Indian sugar. If his Hon. Friend had only listened
to what had fallen from his relative when making his proposi-
tion, he would have understood the position which they
assumed. After the noble sacrifice of twenty milions,
the West India proprietors did pet expect that they

a double sense—first, on the ground of a differential duty be- feeling by the violent proceedinge of the Anti-Corn.law League,
tereen our colonial possessions and foreign countries, supposing he asked whether it was from tr* side of the House that the
them to be placed under similar circumstances; and secondly, question was put to the Right Hon. Baronet if he was prepared
on the consideration of the difficulty which the West India co- to maintain the corn-laws ? Did not the question come from
lonies had to obtain cheap labour. The Government gave a the other side of the House? Did it not pass wholly mire-
differential duty of 10s. against foreign free grown sugar, and a marked except by his Hon. Friend the Member for Kent, shoe ing
high rate of duty against foreign slave grown sugar. The that they (the agriculturists) were satisfied with the declarations
amount of protection offered by Government was identical with of the Right Hon. Baronet. Since then the Right Hon. Baronet
the protection asked for by Hon. Member for Bristol. It was had brought in a Bill for the abolition of all the duties on weol.
not disputed that if the proposition of the Hon. Member for He asked the Right Hon. Baronet in justice to say whether
Bristol were carried into operation that the revenue would the agriculturists had opposed that measure ? Had they exhi.
suffer very considerably. The reduction of duty would not be- bited any factious opposition to it ? The Noble Lord, the
nefit the consumer or the West Indian interest—it would be ul- Member for Tiverton, had said, when any expression
timately most injurious to the latter. It had been objected, of confidence was asked from the House the Govern-
and complaints had been made, that they did not state the whole went could command a majority varying from 90 to 100.
project of their plan on the sugar duties ; but they did not, be- Allusion had often been made to the division of Friday night.
cause it was a part of the great financial system proposed for He ( Mr. S. O'Brien) would ask the Government to go one
the consideration of Parliament next session. But they had in- night further back, and remember the division of Thursday
timated to all parties the principles upon which they meant to act last. The question then brought forward was spoken upon by
and the degree of protection which they intended to esta- the Noble Lord the Member for London, and against all the.
blish. They gave notice that foreign free labour sugar strength of the Opposition they took the high Conservative,
would be admitted into competition, after a certain period, and he might say Protestant ground, and refused to injure the
with West Indian sugar ; but they should have certain Protestant Irish Church, the majority being 95. If the Right
and permanent protection against slave grown sugar. lion. Gentleman compared the vote of Thursday night with the
The Government found themselves bound in honour, as they vote of Friday night, he would find who those were who were
hold themselves bound in opinion, to maintain these sentiments ready to support hm. He trusted the Right Hon Baronet
with respect to this question of protection to the West India would have a long tenure of office ; and he knew it was an
interest. He knew that the Government, in the late division, object of his ambition not only to have a strong Government,
had been defeated by an agreement or concert.—(Cries of but to leave it strengthened to those who were to succeed hint.
" No, no.") It was rather difficult to select a word that would —(Groans.) But those who supported him would only sup-
snit.—(Laughter.) At all events, those Members who usually port him on a principle—(Cheers)--and on all questions where
supported her Majesty's Government, had not supported them high principles were involved, the party, of wheat he was proud
on that occasion. He believed that this measure of the Go- to number himself one—(lronical cheer-)—were ready to
vernment would afford an adequate protection to the West stand by him in spite of all taunts and obloquy.
India interest ; and he also believed that the West India body Colonel SIBTHORP rose, but the confusion and uprear
would find that the measure of the Hon. Member for Bristol which continued while he was addressing the House, made At
would be injurious to their interests. He believed that the difficult to catch what he said. He was understood to say
measure of the Government, by increasing the demand in this that he was prepared to support her Majesty's Government
country, would greatly benefit the producer. He was, however, —( Ironical cheers)—because, having listened to the argumenta
free to confess that the Government would not attempt to follow on both sides of this question, he came to the conclusion that
the example of the late Government, by retaining office against the motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol would neither
the will of the House of Commons, and when all confidence by prove beneficial to the West India interest —( Oh, oh)---nor
that House had been withdrawn from them.—( Cheers.) He to the consumer—(Oh, oh)—nor to the revenue.—( Oh, oh.)
hoped that they would not be asking too much when they God forbid that the Noble Lord, the Member for North -
called for the confidence of Parliament under the circum- Lancashire, should take a lesson from that side of the House.-...
stances in which they were placed. He believed, that upon (Groans.) What position would the agriculturists of England
investigation those of their supporters who had not voted on be in if the Noble Lord opposite came into power once more?
this question with the Government, would feel that the views (Oh, oh.) He was a stay to no Government. (Ironical
of the Government were correct en this matter, although on cheers.) But having had ten years' experience of Hon. Gen-
the first blush, those Hon. Gentlemen might be unable to tlesnen opposite, lie could not have the slightest confidence in
reconcile themselves to it. The Government had to state them.—(lronical cheers.) There were some questions is
firmly, but with respect, that they would adhere to their pro- which he differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he
position; and in doing so, he believed that they were sub- never gave him a more cordial support than he would give oa
stantially benefiting the West India interest. the present occasion.—(Groans.)
Lord PALMERSTON said, that as the only question the Mr. M. GIBSON rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,
House had to determine was the question depending on the divide." He said he should not detain the Committee many
motion of the Hon. Member for Bristol, lie should not he minutes. He wished briefly to explain the views he was cote-
prepared to affirm it. The great objections which he felt to strained to take of the present question. They were told by
the measure were the same which he entertained some that this question was simply whether there should be a
to the proposal of the Government—that it made duty of 245. or 205., and some might take that view if they
a distinction which he thought untenable between thought fit, and there were many plausible reasons for taking
sugar the produce of free labour, and sugar the produce of sla- it, but on reflecting he was induced to come to this conclusion,
very. He thought the discussion which had taken place on that the question before them was one between the extreme
this subject had convinced him that this distinction could not protection party and the Government of the Right Hon. Gen-
be maintained in practice, for it seemed to have now very tleman, who had brought forward this proposition in order to
little approbation from either side of the House. Another diatinish the protection of the West India interest.—
ground of objection to the abstract proposal of the Hon. Gen- ( Cries of " Oh, oh.") He might be wrong, but that was
tleman was that it was founded upon the principle of protec- the view which he took. The Noble Lord, the Member for
tion. He admitted, however, that if any case could justify the London, talked of combinations and concerts, and talked of this
existence of protection it was that of the West India islands. as a party question on the Liberal side.—(Hear, hear.) Why,
Ile, therefore, was not disposed to oppose that degree of protec- was it anything of the kind? The Noble Lord did not invite
tion which this vote proposed on the supposition that them to support some Liberal measure of his own proposition,
it would not be permanent. The Government had but he wanted them to co-operate with the most uncompromising
declared that unless the vote of Friday night last were of their opponents—(" Oh, ob," and groans)—to defeat a
reversed they would cease to retain their office. Hon. measure which was looked on as an improvement by the con.
Gentlemen on his (Lord P.'s) side of the House thought this stituency he represented, and by the great trading interest
threat could have no effect. But towards their own sup• of the country. He admitted that the measure of the Go.
porters, it was a threat which the Government ought not to vernment was not a perfect measure, but it was the only
pr,,,
have indulged in.—(Cheers.) When a Government had lost ticable reform in the present temper of the House. —(.• Oh,
the confidence of Parliament, it was becoming in them to re- oh.") The Right Hon. Baronet was willing to admit foreign
tire from an office which they could no longer retain with sugar into competition with the West India interest, but the
credit to themselves or with advantage to the public. But had protectionists said that they had no confidence in the Right
that principle always actuated Hon. Gentl men opposite? Did Hon. Baronet, and they proposed, in their own defence, to ad-
they forget the Government of 1835? They were beaten, not mit more foreign sugar than the Right Hon. Baronet. Now,
once, twice, or three times, but something like eleven times, he did not believe they had any such object in view.--( Hear,
before they determined to take these successive defeats as proofs hear.) He believed they meant to have a larger measure of
that they had lost the confidence of Parliament ; and not only protection. They proposed a duty of 145., and the Govern-
did they stand those numerous defeats, but they were not in a ment proposed a duty of 10s. He would be most happy to vote
majority on any one question of importance--(Hear, hear)— with the Noble Lord the Member for London, if he proposed
and they said, further, it was not consistent with their duty any broad liberal measure. But this was a question
lightly to desert their posts; and, in truth they did not do so between the Government and the West India interest.
till proof after proof was given that they had no hold whatever It had been stated by the Noble Lord the Member for the
on the confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Another City of London, that when he (Mr. M. Gibson) asserted in
doctrine, however, was advanced now. On the Fac- that House, the other night, that the 345. duty on what was;
tories Bill, when a vote, adverse to their opinion, was called white clayed sugar would apply to the large proportion
given by the House, Ministers came down and said of foreign sugar available under the proposal of the Hen. Gent.
they would not be responsible for the conduct of affairs unless tleman, he was not correct in that assertion. Of course he
that vote was reversed. The vote was reversed and much loss could make no such assertion founded on his own knowledge,
of character they sustained thereby.—(Hear, hear.) And but he had made the assertion on the best authority ; and he
what were they told now ? Why, that this is not a question of would take the liberty of readin a letter or two in his own
importance, and yet that they. would not remain in office unless justification.—(Cries of" Oh, oh,") If he were not permitted to
the House reversed the decision it had arrived at. Why what do this, he should move to reportprogress.—( Hear.) (The Hon.
did this come to? That this House was a mere cipher, called and Learned Member then read a letter from Mr. Peter Marti-
together for the sole purpose of registering the edicts of the neau, a gentleman connected with the sugar trade, stating that
Government.—( Loud cheers.) If the difference between the the effect of Mr. Miles's motion would be to entail an addi.
Government and its supporters was of importance, then those tional protective duty of 4s. on a very large proportion of the
supporters were to be affronted by being required to reverse foreign free-labour sugar.) The leading men in the City, of Con-
their votes; and if the difference was, as stated in this instance, servative politics, said that the Java sugar would all come under
of a slight character, still the vote was to be reversed, and thus the denomination of clayed, or white clayed sugar, and would be
was the affront made more pointed than ever.--( Loud cheers.) subject to the high duty of 345. per cwt. ( The Hon. Member
This did appear to him (Lord Palmerston) a doctrine utterly alsoread a letter from Messrs. Thornton and West to the same
new in the practice of a constitutional Government—one most effect.) He had several other letters from gentlemen, who all
dangerous in its consequences to the independence, the utility, concurred in considering the measure of the Vt'est India interest
and the character of that House.—(Cheers.) Were he a sup- ademand for increased protection. He must, therefore, without
porter of the Government, however much he might value the any disrespect to the Noble Lord, call upon him not to throw a
stability of the Government, he should value his own character taunt of inconsistency upon himself, and those who voted in the
more, and he should say to the head of that Government, I House on that occasion. They were simply desirous of pro-
cannot and I will not give a vote which is not consistent curing for the country the best measure within reach, and
with my honour.—(Loud cheers.) Never in his life they were not taking this course with any desire to put them.
was he (Lord Palmerston) more surprised than when he heard selves in the smallest degree in opposition to the Noble Lord
the course determined on by the Government. Every one and his friends.--( Hear, hear. )
had speculated on what course they might take, but no matter Mr. ROEBUCK said the view taken by his Hon. Friend
how they speculated they would have taken that which they might appear to call for some remark. There was a reduction
had resolved on. Government might have come down, and of duty proposed to the House, but the Member for Man-
with much grace, and fair credit to themselves, have said they chester objected that that the proposal emanated from' the
were prepared to acquiesce in what appeared to be the opinion frier:cis of free trade. Now what did he care for that?...
of that House.—( Hear, hear.) They might have said, since ( Hear, hear.) It so happened that the West Indians conceived
Parliament had chosen to sacrifice so much revenue, Parlia- that their interest coincided with that of the consumer. They
ment must make it good. This course would have been in- said, "If you reduce the price you increase the consumption,
telligible, honourable, and just.—( Hear, hear.) Or the Right and thereby enable us to get a higher price for our sugar."
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) might have said, there was such a Without, therefore, in the slightest degree regarding the nate.
manifest difference of opinion between his Government and the rests of the West Indians, he was fully persuaded that the pro.
House, that he should appeal to the country—not as an appeal posal before the House was calculated to protect the interest
was usually made against his opponents—but against his own both of the West Indians and of the consumer.—( Hear, hear.)
supporters—( A laugh)—or ask of the country to return him a The Right Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord opposite said
body of Members more disposed to support the general senti- the object of those who voted in favour of the Hon. Member
ments of the Government.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Then for Bristol nas inimical to the Government. He begged to
there was a third course which the Bight Hon. Baronet and his say that he had no enmity against, them, and he would at that
colleagues might have taken with dignity and honour. When moment be very sorry to see them out of power. But they
they saw how the votes stood the other evening they might had had the remarkable confession of the Minister that evening.,
most fairly have said, we perceive a progressive increase of that with a majority of 100 he was unable to carry on the ors,.
difference of opinion between ourselves and our supporters— nary business of legislation.—( Hear.) The fact is, that when the,
we are satisfied we have lost the confidence of many of our Government came into power, and incurred the responsibilities
friends, and it will be better to resign on this plain and tangible of office, they found themselves brought into immediate,
ground, rather than call upon our party to rescind a vote to collision with a small section in this country. The present
which they have deliberately come.—(Cheers.) Had the Government bad been again and again taunted with hay.
Ministers have done this there would have been no blush.— ing come into office under the pretence that they would sup.
(Cheers, and a laugh from Lord Stanley.) But they had port protection. It will be the cry against all who shall owns
raised a blush—and it was not the first, and it would not into office hereafter upon the support of the same party, thug
be the last.—( Hear, hear.) When on the Opposition benches in that, was the greatest victory of free trade, that there wee
Ministers were strongly averse to the principles of free trade— now a small section who felt that protection did not serve
having changed to the other side, they liked those principles them—(Hear, hear)—and asked for low prices as the hest
in the abstract, but they said they liked them not in practice— means of promoting the interest of the producer as well as of
and now they sported them occasionally they were afraid to the consumer.—(Dear, hear.) That would be the case also
wear them out by too much use, and kept them, as it were, for with the section which the Hon. Member for Somerset re.
high days and holidays.—( Hear, hear. But they still pre. presented—the agricultural interest.—( Hear, hear.) The
served specimens of the—he should rather say our—principles, supporters of the Government need never again
in order to show that they did not altogether repudiate them. complain of their leader.—(Cheers.) It was ueetele
They opposed our proposal for a fixed duty on corn, but on to talk of mysterious influences at work, producing
the frontiers of Canada they had the fixed duty in operation. coldness in Alay, discontent in June, and perhaps
All the corn that came from America through Canada came open war in July.—( Cheers and laughter.) There was some
in on the fixed duty principle. They opposed the principle of difficulty in accounting for all this. But it was one of those
free trade, that of having no duty at all, except merely for re- difficulties which were propounded by those who obtained a re-
gistration. They had a specimen of that too. The corn that putation for wisdom, by refusing to give an answer to their
came from the State of Maine, under the Ashburton treaty, own questions.—(Derisive cheers from the lower Tory
through New Brunswick, came In on the free-trade benches.) Gentlemen might laugh, but he bad known that
principle and paid no duty at all.—(Hear, hear.) Thus principle to be carried out through works of fiction of three
though they seemed to value These principles on the one hand, volumes extent.—( Cheers and laughter.) The support of the
they took care to use them as little as possible; on the other Government might be accounted for by a reference to the text
hand, they took care to have specimens of them in operation. from which a Rev. Prelate preached a sermon before a great
that they might be able to say for the future that they not only Minister (Mr. Pitt), when he was elected Member for the
agreed with them in the abstract, but had applied them as far University of Cambridge :—" There is a lad amongst us who
as the application was possible. He thought then that the has five barley-loaves and three small fishes ; but what is that
great question they had to consider to-night was, whether amongst so many."—(Great laughter.)
they would surrender their independent will, and their sincere Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Come
conviction, to the dictates of the Government—whether the mittee divided, when there appeared—
Gentlemen who voted upon their own opinion, and their own For Mr. Miles' motion 233
deep convictions, on Friday night, would vete on Monday ac- Against it
cording to those convictions, persisting in their consistency, Majority for Ministers
although at the risk of losing a Government which they wished The announcement of the numbers was received with loud
to keep in power. If the question were between maintaining Ministerial cheers.
that consistency and losing the Government they generally On our admission into the gallery we found.
supported, he thought the sense of honour, and a regard for Mr. MILES on his legs, stating, that as the Committee was
the character of Parliament, would leave them no alternative against his motion, he should not persevere.
in such a choice. But let them not deceive The Bill then passed through Committee pro forma, and the
themselves by such an apprehension ; let them not House resumed.
imagine, if they did persist in their former vote, BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
that their doing so would lead to any change in the Govern- Mr. WARBURTON wished to know the order in which the
ment. They need only look at this House, and see how it was business would be taken to-morrow (this day)
composed, to see what were the relative positions of parties, Sir R. PEEL desired to know whether Hon. Gentlemen
when any question was really at issue between the opposite intended to persevere in the motions of which they had givers
sides, and they would be convinced that this threat was an idle notice before he could fix the order of the business ?
one—a threat that would not, and could not, be carried into Mr. HUTT would bring forward the motion of which he
execution. When the Government said that it had lust the had given notice on the subject of soap, if there were a House.
confidence of the House, what did it mean ? He (Lord Pal- which in the present excited state of the public mind, be
merston) said that it meant, when a vital question was put be- scarcely thought would be the case.
fore the House, not the mere rescinding of a vote, but when The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if
the Government knew beforehand, that a default must be the the Hon. Member did not expect a House, perhaps he would
consequence of the vote about to be given. Well, when abandon his motion.
questions of that sort had come before them what indications Mr. HUTT considered the subject of so much importann
had there been of a want of confidence ? Why, the Govern- that he could not consent to put off his motion.
ment had a majority varying from 90 to 100, and he would Sir R. PEEL would take the Dissenters' Chapels Bill after
venture to say, that whatever might be the decision to-night, the Sugar Bill on Thursday, and the Bank Charter Bill on
if on any day during the present week, any gentleman on the Friday.
Opposition side of the House should propose a resolution, as- Mr. WYSE had a motion on the paper relative to the
sorting a want of confidence in her Majesty's Government, it system of education at Mavnooth. He wished to know when
would be negatived by a majority of not less than 90 or 100. it was likely the grant for Mayneoth would be brought on, in
—(lronical cheers.) Away then with this nonsensical order, if possible, to avoid two debates on the same subject ?
pretext of a want of confidence.—(Loud cheers.) Away Sir R. PEEL considered that the Dissenters' Chapels Bill
with the pretext that it was necessary that gentle- and the Bank Charter Bill were measures of so much ita.
men should unsay what they had said so forfeiting all chit- portanee, that he thought it better to proceed with them first.
racter and title to independence and consistency.—( Cheers.) and afterwards he would fix a day for the Maynooth grant.
He said that the Government could not be in earnest when it Mr. T. DUNCOMBE had understood that Thursday was
said that it had lost the confidence of the House. The recent fixed for the New Poor-law discussion. He supposed that it
votes of the House proved the contrary, and not wishing to was to be postponed again---( Hear, hear.) Now, with regsr4
say anything more severe than had been already said, be did to the Sugar Duties Bill, why did they not proceed with it at
believe that the vote which the supporters of the Government once, instead of going through the farce of a discussion ? Let
were called on to give to-night had been most accurately described the Chairman report progress, and have the Bill read a third
d that
by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, when he sat
_ how- time at once. -Where was the use of this farce, if, after the
ever anxious the Government might be to put an end to slavery House had decided a clause, a Minister was to get op and say.
in other parts of the world, yet they still wished to keep in "If you do not rescind your vote I will resign ?"--(A laugh.'
chains those who sat behind them on the Treasury benches. It would be better to proceed at once with the Bill.
—( Cheers.) Sir R. PEEL would be glad to proceed as speedily as possi.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said -he was unwilling to let ble, but the third clause had been put off to suit the confetti..
the debate come to a conclusion without tendering his thanks ence of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer.
to the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, for the Mr. T. DUNCOMEIE— Why not rescind the vote you have
manner in which he bad answered the Noble Lord, the Member just come to, and go on at once ?—( Laughter. )
for Sunderland. He begged to assure that Noble Lard that, . Sir R. PEEL, in answer to a question from Mr. Duncoxelass
however slight might be the friendship of the Right Hon. said he was at present unable to Ax the precise time on which
Baronet, yet the agriculturists of England considered the hes- the Poor-law Amendment Bill would be introduced.
tilitv of the Noble Lord and his party to be so inveterate and 1 The Limitation of Actions (Ireland) Bill was then read a
implacable, that it would be long ere they would lend him their third time.
countenance. The Noble Lord had stated that a friendly dis- ' Ott the motion for the further consideration of the Lora
position had existed on the whole between her Majesty's Go- Amendments to the Night Poaching Bill,
vernment and the agricultural body. As the Right Hon. Mr. WARBURTON said that these amendments had been
Baronet had told them, now was the time to speak out; he only placed in the hands of Members that morning, and he
wished the tone of his speech had enabled him to feel that the moved the further consideration of the Bill be postponed till
Right Hon. Baronet entertained that feeling also. But he to-morrow (this day).
asked the House and the country to remember what the con- After a short conversation, the House divided oa the motion,
duct of the agricultural body had been since the present Go- when there appeared—
vernmeut came in to power. That was described to be the hour Forgnaitnset
itsadournment of the question b
A
of victory and the hour of triumph for the agricultural party..• 37
He asked the House whether the agriculturists had availed Majority
themselves of that hour of triumph, or used that hour of victory On our return to the gallery we found
to demand any fresh protection for themselves?—(Laughter Mr, WALLACE consenting to tpone the further =W-
and cheers ) That theagriculturalbody did not merit the thanks desation of the Bill till to-morrow this day).
of the other aide of the House was nothing; they never RAILWA S.
expected them, But they did look for the approbation of the Mr. GLADSTONE brought in a Bill to &thugs certain arm.
country ; they did expect the approbation of posterity.— ditions to the construction of future railways, authorised, or to
(Laughter.) When it was remembered that in their hour of be authorised, by any Act of the present or succeeding sessions
triumph they submitted to a revision of all those duties which of Parliament, and for other purposes in relation to railways.
affected their own interests, and acguieseed in the lowest degree which was read a first time.
of protection, what had been the conduct of the agricultural The other orders of the day were then disposed of, asd the
body since? When they were driven to a demonstration of . House adionsalst at a Quarter past One o'Clock.