The Sun.
London, England, 1828-03-22 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

Upon the motion of Mr. DAWSON, the House re-
solved itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. BANKES said he had a few observations to make
relative to the increase of the expence fur the British
Museum, in the account to he submitted to the considera-
tion of the Committee. That increase of expence was to be
attributed, first to the necessity which existed of erecting e
room for the reception of the library of his late Majesty,
which had been so generously devoted by his present
Majesty to the use of the public. The room destined to;
those books was now ready, and the books would be re-
moved into it in the course of a few days, and he had great
pleasure in stating that many Hon. Members who had sent
the room, had expressed themselves highly satisfied with
the handsome manner in which the room was fitted up.
As that room was an addition to the Museum, it had be-
come necessary te appoint an additional number
of persons to the former establishment to attend to
that room. Another item of increased expense was,
for removing the library of the late Sir Joseph
Banks; and another item was, 250/. for printing a cata-
logue of the works bequeathed by the late Mr. Paynt,
Knight, to the British Museum.
f
Sir JOSEPH YORKE felt it necessary to allude to one
circumstance with reference to the splendid room prepared
for the reception of the library of his late Majesty. ti,
that splendid room were four granite columns, which ap _
four
columns,
faultln snlay
he Leitht ho theiig thought
trustees,
they
bey
0 t o ,
gr
h i
geared calculated to support a weight so prodigious, as
would have puzzled Archimedes himself to have moved
h evidently supported
oweve•rd were so placed, as to let o nn
mThanesimannere oolim
fiunses:
and nothing. This
was in bad taste, and much out of character with thebuildio
Whseetler
i.
smirks, he could not say, but when 5,000/. bad been ex-
pended
on heto
have been more advantageously placed.
Mr. BANKES concurred in thinking the columns im-
properly placed ;
he bad vainly stated this objection, any
also he had protested against the expence.
The grant of 16,649/. to the British Museum was then
agreed to.
The Report was ordered to be received on Monday next.
Sir J. NEWPORT wished to put a question to the
theseh oi
Right Hon. the Secretary of State.—(The Right Hen.
Baronet spoke in so low a tone as to be inaudible in the
gqle!.Y.)—We understood his question to refer to the Com-
missioners of Inquiry, relative to the Scotch Courts of
Justice, and to the vacancy in the registry of one of those
Courts; in the new appointment to which he hoped some
provision would be made to prevent its duties from being
executed solely by deputy, although the principal received
a large salary.
Mr. Secretary PEEL was aware of the vacancy in the
Court to which the Right Hon. Baronet referred, and of
the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire re-
lative to the fees and emoluments of the officers of the
Scotch Courts. He apprehended there were serious duties
attached to the office alluded to, which, although now
valiant for six months, had not yet been filled up. The
report of the Commissioners did not suggest any alteration
in that office. lie had referred the whole case to the
Cotninissioners, and asked what they had intended to re-
commend! and he did not int& to appoint any one who

would not discharge the duties of that office in persod,aas
far as they could be so discharged.
Sir J. NEWPORT was understood to say, that the
entire duties of the office had been heretofore discharged
by deputy.
Mr. DAWSON laid noon the aahlo accounts of the
era sums grentod to Nara; atei 7,:.i-sary Pensions for
past year. . .
AST IIETFOiIs) DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
'fr. TENNYet;ON panned. the Ordest of the Day for the
to to tesolve itaelf into a Coneolitrea on the East Ret-
lord Disfrinehetanatnent : -
Mr. laesseaseeie CAL 117.1.72 rose together,
lint the fatter resu-ne• -ttmt.
Mr. TEM4rYiK' kriser,. to wave the re-committal
of thht BM, anet his' duly to poiht out the way
in which Itos etotaisl' , Luso ought to proceed. There
were, Icel./hal-ell, branchea to :his question;
Erste 'whether sr ea' luce had beer tsrought before
the House to Ailiatnentary nrocceding. This
joint name toe Aed of. The seccroi was as to the
=seams of ti
„afereace; and as this MI a point which
ought to he peed in the COmenittee, he 'could beg to
andrest the yarei upon it. As he tinderatood his Ron.
(xiill. caaeeet) intended to nuke this point the
stibjto-t of klase
,propsition to -the Committee, he (Mr.
ennywm) felt Etude caned upon to state more distinctly
than i e should otherwise halos the-pos;tion in which
the borough of East Retford had been placed by the evi-
dence heard at the bar of the House; and his object
would be to show that no measure, sheet of utter dis-
franchisement, would answer the ends of justice. The
ebarge against East Bettor(' was, that in that borough
':here Lea beers a long-continued practice, that voters for
.he successful candidate, should receive each 20 guineas, so
.hat those who voted for the two successful candidates
soodal receive each 40 guineas. It was now eleven months
e.nce the report of the Committee had been made to the
Islouse, and during the period that hail since .elapsed no
woad et denial had been heard fruits the burgesses of that
lmrough. Many petitions had been gent from East Retford,
nut no one of them had contained a word of denial that cur-
rept practices universally existed there. Even from Alder-
man Parker himself no such declaration had yet appeared.
None of it; bargesses, none of its inhabitants, had at-
tempted to state that they were not guilty of the charges
peeferred against them—no such evidence had been offered
at the bar—although the most ample opportunity had been
afforded of disproving the charges if they could have been
sheproved. On the other hand, the charges of corruption
against the borough had been proved in the most distinct
ananner. The eloquent barrister who had bon heard at the
bar, did not deny the charges made again suite borough—
slid not pretend to doubt them—it was tote he deprecated
the proceedings then going on, but tl.e truth of the charges
fee did not attempt to confute. The charges had been sup_
ported by a chain of evidence, which it wa.s quite impossible
en controvert—the House had had the testimony of Mr.
tA'arosiek, the steward to the Duke of Newcastle, who in
1807, went round to the voters and administered bribes.
'.the House had also the evidence of Mr. llannan, who
'had appeared at the Bar, ana stated, that he, in conjunct.-
ssiou with the agent of Alr. Osbaldestone, in 1812, paid at
the Inn at Iletihrd, a large body of voters for that gentle-
roan ; and it bad also the to of that very agent
(Mr. Picard), as to the actual payment of those people._
The es idence of Arr. Fox was also before the House. In
fBIB, he being clerk to Mr. Foljambe, the banker, pro-
Jutted his books, in which an entry of 2,840/. appeared
as sonelry payments, and on the other side a sum of 2,640!.
paid into the bank by Mr. Crompton, to balance these
oundry payments—and Which he (Mr. Fox), believed had
aesen paid over to Mr. Lelbitter, to recompence the elec-
;ors for their votes. Mr. Fox had given his evidence so
reluctantly, as to oblige due House to inflict punishment
upon hint ; but his extorted evidence was sufficient to
leave no rational doubt that this sum of 2,8401. was at--
tualiy paid to the East Retford electors. The next proof
etas, the hooks produced by Airs. Thornton, widow or
olohn Thornton, the agent to Mr. Evans, in which there
appeared entries of all the material transactions that had
occurred in 1818 and 1820. These books indicated who
had received 211. for his vote, and also that Mr. Alderman
(:large—perhaps because lie was an Alderman—had re
eteirel 121. for his; by those entries, and by other au-
thentic records, it was ascertained that all the burgesses,
with thee exception of the Reverence' Mr. Booth—to
is honour be it mentioned—had received bribes.— •
"1 he Town-Clerk had stated that only the lower classes of
freemen would take money, meaning, of course, coblers,
shoemakers, and men of that description ; yet the admit,
sioa of the parties themselves at the Bar of the House
-showed that the corruption was more extensive, and that
.Earcebeee, (the Town-Clerk) himself, and the Aldermen of
Borouolo received money for their votes equally with
the lowest tradesmen ; even those persons who at the elec-
tions its 1816, .ft 1820, and in 1827, had actually filled the
esiporcant eituatkraaof Returning 011icers ; nay, that among
them was to be itoand, and be felt ashametl to state the
fact, a Minister of the' Chterch of Enalensl. It had been
contended by Hon. Gentle:loco, and one in particular (Mr.
Bankes), that the evidence prudaeed before the Commit-
tee and at the Bar of the House did tot touch the leoo
election, and that therefore this was not a ft case in
which to apply so severe a measure as disfranchisement.
Browne, the Town Clerk, had stated, that there were an

eTspectahle burgesses in East Retford, who would not, and
evhe never did receive election money. That statement he
(Mr. Tennyson) perceived had made a great impression on
the House. It became his 'duty, therefore, to counteract,
it: He had, 't-or that purpose, put into Browne's hands
three lilts, contatuing the names of the electors of 1818,
1820, and 1826, aro/ bad desired that witness to indicate,
by a mark opposite to their respective names, who those
incorruptible individuals were. The result was, that in
the list for 1818, out of 200 voters and upwards, he WAS
enable to point out forty; indeed, oet snore than twenty-
eeven ; and of these 27, he (Mr. Teratfeon) should now
proceed to give an account. The first name ;narked was
that of Booth, of whom the House knew eekangh.—
The next eight names were those of non-residenta,r—
The three next had promised to vote,—but, indeed, it was
leite safe for the witness to speak of non-residents, there
s.:)eiug no check on bins. Another wae.ieed—another had
no vote—three were residents, it was true, but had not
promised—ether three residents, but who were rtow dead
--and three who were actually Paid, was proved jo
evrtience before the House. Thus had he (Mr. Tennyson)
cat down the 27 to 2, and he was quite willieg tt
admit that there were two resident burgesses of Retford,
to impeach whoth no evidence had been brought forward.
In the same way the witness had, jA the list of 1820, been
able to show 0n1y;23 names of perenres whom he deemed
incorruptible,- and these he (Mr. T.) it , that, taking
the dead and non-residents into account, mig lie dimi-
nished to s—out of 155: He next came to filepleat
:important list—that of MK in which the witness, vii :
all his anxiety, had been only utile to mark the names of
19, Whiefi nithatber, in a similar way, be (Mr. Tennyson)
reduced again to 5, He had obtained a list, which he
when held in his hand, wad which he was willieg to fry on
the table of the House, of evary man qualified to eats for
East Retfbrd, in which, opposite the name of each, wee
.stated the nature of the eeldenc.e that had been adduced re-

,pecting him before a Committee of that Moose, by which
At would he found that a great rriajority were impeached
.ad proved corrupt. fie would 1144 after that, whether
t ,aas not absurd to say that the proof adduced at the
.did not apply to the present state of Retfoed,
Bon. anet Learned Friend bad contended that no precedent
could be A- 48:d of an Act for ..iit.franchising a Borough, ex-
eept for recent corruption. But og Junking at the Act re-
,#ecting Shorehitm, he found that twit had not been a
::ass, of corruption proved to have been coni,zitted at the
2ag preceding election--h.ut a case founded on
ti: exist-
core of a society called the Christian Society, which 14.4.
procured a false return—throngbi the agency of the Re-
Laming Officer. Another case wag, that of Grampound,
;')nt neither had the corruption there proved been com-
mitted at the last election; on the .contraw, it had oc-
.
‘•urred at preceding elections. (Here the 11(o . gp.,171 be r
referred to ,the evidence taken before the ,Coll,lnlit.tee, it 9

prove that «. .onsiderable;;lorit;Of thaeiectom of EaSt
Retford had been proved corrupt.) For those reopens,
and convinced that a number of respectable burgessc;
e iEast Retford to form thsnuld not be proved to ex:st
nucleus of and:Learned Friend's proposed new
body of electors, he felt it unnecerdwy
further to trespass
on the time of the house idrecommen44c-, the disfranchise-
ment of that borough.----(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GEORGE BANKES was of opinion tlaat,iift pre-
sent was not the proper time at which to establish
!jaw
precedent, and contended that the questions of Shoreham
and Grampound did not apply. In the debate- respecting
the former it was that Mr. Fox had first evinced emu pos_
session of that splendid eloquence which be snbsequewds,
Zieplayed in that House. The case of Grampound was no
.grit, dent for the present. In the former case there were
,tirp,,t,..„,.four convictions for bribery in courts of justice—
;ll the pres,:'at none. In that case too it was prona that
:.‘t a meeting f the electors (of Grampound), at was
re-
solved to ask 8,1 s7O/. for the borough, and the proposition
was made by no les% a Personage than the mayor of the
borough, and in the p:esence of the Aldermen. In no
former ease did the House proceed on evidence taken as
that on the pre=ent case. The' Hon. Member proceeded
to cothment on the evidence of tjle ,several witnesses, And
An 'PAC out discrepancies itettveen-4eir allegations.---'
The, list-ofseetcrs iilleged to be booked not anthen-
,,ated, and. ttiß not therefore constitnte evir!e.ni!. clie ent

to support a Bill of Pains and Penalties, such as this dis-
i franchisement Bill really was. If the corruption of the
borotigh was so notorious, was it possible that such a re-
ispectable nobleman as Lord Fitzwilliam would endeavour
to obtain a seat in the borough for his relation (Sir H.
Dundas)? The Hon. Member concluded by declaring his
determination to oppose the Bill.
Lord HOWICK could not bring himself; in the present
state of things, to consider bribery at Borough Elections
shameful or blameable. No, nor could the Noble Earl
(Fitzwilliam), the most respectable character in the coon-
tryehe considered to look on that practice as disgraceful,
when he wished that his relative should become the Repre-
sentative of a corrupt Borough. It was well known that
the electors of every small borough were influenced in voting
by selfish interest; and that their Representatives owed their
seats to that corrupt motive. Now, for himself, he could
see no difference whether the electors were influenced directly
by money, or indirectly by East India or Government pa-
tronage, or by receiving for a house or a horse much more
than their value.—(Cheering.)—This state of things was
the fault of the House—(Cheering)—and ought to be
corrected by some general measure of reform.—(Cheering.)
—As to Fast Retford he considered the charge clearly
proved against it ; and considering the public advantage that
must flow from tranefening the franchise to a populous
City, on that ground chiefly he would support the Bill, and
to the intended proposition of extending the franchise to the
Hundred he should give his decided opposition.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN was sure every Member
would concur in the opinions so ably expressed by the
Noble Lord (Howick.) The proof of corruption, in the
case of this borough, was so complete, that the only matter
of astonishment was, that the Hun. Member (Mr. Bankes)
could still persist in such inveterate prejudices. As to the
eights of which the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) had
talked so much, he contended that no set of men in this
country could retain any rights but on condition of exer-
cising them in a way not to prejudice the public, from
whom they held them in trust.--(Cheers.)—All such
rights, if abused, it was within the po'wer of Parliament to
rescind. The Hon. and Worthy Alderman then quoted a
passage from Lord Chatham, and another from Lord Camden
—the first, in order to illustrate the position he
had just advanced ; the second, as authority for the
position, that taxation without representation is
tyranny. In short, (the Honourable Gentleman said)
he did not dare go the length of repeating all that
these great men and Mr. Locke had said on this subject,
inasmuch as tke language would be too strong for that
House, even at this time of day. As to the disfranchise-
ment of the Borough, now under the consideration of the li
House, he presumed there could be no question upon that
score. The only question for the present determination
was, where this Bormigh was to go ?---(A laugh) Gen-
tlemen might laugh ; but it was clear that the Borough
could not continue to stand where it was.—(Much laugh-
ter.) lie was never an advocate for Universal Suffrage;
but lie really thought that the Franchise ought to be much
more extended than it at present was, so as to give some
portion of the great mass of the community, at present un-
represented, a chance of exercising something like a voice
upon the way in which the parties nominally representing
them should discharge their ti ust. The Mon. Gent!; man
had to-night talked of giving the franchise, if taken from
the Borough of East Retford, to the neighbouring Hun-
dred : hut what sort of right could that neighbouring
Hundred assert to two votes, when so very large a portion
of the community 100 l no vote at all ?—(Hear, hear.)--
What sort of right could the Hundred assert, unimportant
as it was, while a town of the importance of 9,irmingham,
with 120,000 inhabitants, was altogether unrepresented ?
The whole syetem of the Commons' representation, though
re-modelled to a certain extent in 1688 was still greatly de-
fective. Let the House look at the vast ditli!rence between the
amount of our population and annual expenditure at that
period, and their amount at the present day, and then
judge whether or no we had any thing like an adequate
representation ? In 1688, we had no national debt, a
population of only 5,000,000, and an annual expenditure
of no more than 2,000,1001. At present we had a national
debt above 800,000,0001., and a population in Great
Britain alone, exclusive of Ireland, of nearly 15,000,000,
and an annual expenditure of about 60,000,000/. In the
same way, while the county of Cornwall, including the
Knights of the Shire, returned about 40 Members—that
is, while for its lea or 18 boroughs, and 250,000 in-
habitants, it sent 40 Members to that House—the im-
portant towns of Hull, Manchester, Leeds, and Halifax,
containing 400,000 inhabitants, were unrepresented—
totally unrepresented. Now let any man come forward
and laugh at that.--(A laugh.)—He himself had received
5,045 votes without the expense of a single chilling ; and,
therefore, he had an interest in asserting that the elective
franchise might he extended, without necessarily subjecting
its exercise to corrupt abuses. fie would rather vote fur
continuing the franchise to East Retford, than transferring I
it to the Hundred.

Mr. Secretary PEEL—I think, Sir, that the question
which the House is now called upon to decide, involves
considerations very similar to those involved in the matter
ofthe borough of Penryn. These considerations are, first,
justice towards the borough now brought under our con-
sideration, on a grave charge of delinquency; and next
(whatever the Worthy Alderman may say), policy and ex-
pediency, supposing it to he determined that the borough is
guilty of that degree of delinquency which shall appear
justly to subject it to the forfeiture of its existing franchise.
Now, Sir, I propose to discuss these considerations in that
natural order suggested by the Hon. Gentleman opposite.
I shall advert first to the consideration of justice, with the
view of entering upon the argument as to whether or no
the evidence adduced at the bar, coupled with what has
Imellkadduced before the Committee up stairs, will justify
this House in adopting any final measure in respect of this
borough of East Retford ? I must, in the first place, re-
peat the distinction 1 have already taken in the Penryn
case, between a trust confided in Parliament for public
reasons, and to be exercised for the public good, and those
rights of any other kind which are individual property. It
is useless, I conceive, to enter into any argument by way
of enforcing a distinction so obvious. In the case of an
imiiwid oars right over a private property, no one can doubt
that the fact of his parting with such property, for a pecu-
niary consideration may be an innocent and even laud-
. able exercise of such undoubted right. Here the Right
Hon. Gentleman, after observing on the general effect and
authority of such evidence as it was within the power of
the House to take in questions of this sort, declared his
opinion to be, that on time present occasion they had bad
ail the evidence, which, under the existing law of evidence
as applieab;e to Parliament, this branch of the Legislature
could expect to deriwe ; namely, the evidence of witnesses
examined upon oath before the Committee up-stairs, and
that which had been taken at their own bar. He had lis-
tened with great attention to this evidence; and speaking
as a Judge, without having consulted any one else upon the
4.;i'iik.Tt, hut acting on the impression of his own mind, he
muss. !hat it had exhibited such proofs of the existence
of an invetiv:.:el!abit of corruption in this borough, as did
justify the adoptior. the House of some measure or pro-
ceeding against the botouf-s-Wa privilege. If he were to
come to the conclusion that there wa; go sufficient evidence
;u this case, he must adopt the painful alternative of de •

ternti4if.fg, that neither could there be any evidence suffi-
ciently crit...atory in any other case. He was not ashamed
to admit, while hz; ;teed this, that his impression of the
effect of the evidence had varied at diffi-rent periods of its
c!elivetr. When he first heard that it was only the lowest
class of w.itnesses who admitted that they had been in the
habit of i-eveiyint• election money, he did hope that it might
turn out that the hihthe; class had exerted themselves to re-
press these malpractices. But when, in the further progress
of the examination, it did appear that persons holding
higher situations in the borough—Aldermen, even, and
others of consideration in that part of the world—had
Fse..i.4 in the habit of accepting similar bribes, his view of
the szubjet .lk.l undergone a very considerable change. If
he could have 1.64 iii.tit,,fied that freemen had really refused
to vote for Sir Llenry r"count, as was pretended
by some of the witnesses, of fir il.4,;:y's favour to the
' 12atholic Question, he (Mr. Peel) did not hesiLap. ;u say,
that lip should have considered such a motive on the part
of tbe fl:e.eto.co;, t,t. perfectly honest and fair one, fur the
conduct they adopted it respect to that Gentleman. (Hear,
hear.) lie vva bout d 19 eaFtri2ss, however, that Mr.
fircisqii.'s evidence had given a
.0191 g 50, :end explanation
of, the plata," which °centre() so often (that Sir Henry
would do every thing ,";/...it was just and right,) very dif-
ferent fr,,m the construction which he (Mr. Peel) had put
upon it, the first time he heard it. It was whimsical to
observe how the repressions had been transposed,
as the
eia;lination procee4ed ; for at first it was "every thin,
that was ,oight and tst ;" this formula, by degrees, changed
into "every thing,t4t ,flas just and right ;" but it did turn
out that in the borough of Retford tilesa words bore
a very palpable construction ; and really t.-.2t,i:t and intended
that the party who would do all that was Just
should give t4.-en,try guineas to every individual who
had the happiness to t•e4;4;.-it: that assurance. Upon the
whola of this transaction, he was iDdttced to think that
Sufficimat
..i.;idence had been adduced to sasiz;f:/, hint that.
for a considerable. period., there bad prevailed a tGlt:rably
gonerally established, ar-ts' I te might say an inveterate habit
ale freemen of the iborou4l; pf East Retford, of re-
ceiving. moug hr the exercise of their 4;,iive franchise.
I will now, A.-4;fitva.ed the Right lion.
if the House will allow stsi; ia few words—although
as:, ;Ware this is not, correctly spealti4„, the proper
stage to ;t—urn the policy of this itte7tion,

and also with respect to the course which, nudes
all the circumstances, it appears to me most advisable
to pursue. Ido not intend to follow the Hon. Alderman,
who spoke last, through his speech, as it appears to
me that three-fourths of it more properly belongs to the
question of Parliamentary Reform than that now be-
fore the House. If he can succeed in establishing his po-
sitions, he ought to be exceedingly dissatisfied with this
proceeding, and proceed at once to give notice of his in-
tention to bring the subject before the House in a more
solemn form. Although the question of Parliamentary
Reform has been discussed a hundred times in this House,
the Hon. Alderman's arguments have all the freshness of
novelty. He has discovered that since the revolution our
population has increased, and that our debt has bent aug-
mented.—(A laugh.)—l presume that he had some pro-
posal to submit to the House which would have the effect
not only of proportioning of representatives exactly to
the present amount of the debt, but of utilising provision
for their increase, or diminution in a given manner, as the
debt was augmented or diminished. Upon what principle
the Mon. Alderman proposes to do this I am not aware ;
but it is, I dare say, a very tit subject for consideration,
but which on this occasion I consider out of place. Tye
Honourable Alderman spared us the pain of hearing some
quotations, which he said if he had ventured to produce,
would have had the effect of justifying en the part of
Birmingham and some other towns, the same proceedings
that overturned the authority of the Mother Country in
the United States.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—l feel grateful
to the Hon. Alderman for sparing us the quotations, if such
would have been the consequences. Although, however,
he would not venture to use the ardentia trrba them-
selves, he shadowed forth the principle of his quotation,
and stated it to be that taxation without representation
was absolute tyranny, and would justify resistance.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN—I said no such thing.
Mr. PEEL.—The Hon. Alderman will pardon me, but
he said that his quotation would justify the same proceeding
on the part of some of our towns as had been pursued by
America. If his doctrine in the abstract be true, what
becomes of that large class of persons under the age of
twenty-one, or, as was said by one who was once Secretary
of State, what becomes of the female sex ?—(A laugh.)—
What, also I will ask the Hon. Alderman becomes of all
those who were so unfortunate as riot to have freeholds
worth 391. ? If his doctrine be true, on what principle
is it that the Hon. Alderman is not an advocate for universal
suffrage ?—(Hear.) He Says that he was never a speculator,
or an Ultra Reformist, but if the propositions he had laid
down lee true, he ought to advocate those principles. But
I will put it to him whether there is no difference between
the taxation of a whole country like the United States,
and a few private individuals, or some particular towns.
The doctrine laid down by Lord Camden, and quoted by
the Hon. Alderman, however appropriate as applied to
America, is nothing more nor less than absolute nonsense,
applied to Birmingham.—(Hear,)—With respect to the
speech of the Noble Lord opposite, I shall only allude to it
to diets', that if the doctrine he advocated be true, we might
as well abdicate our functions at once with regard to the
punishment of offenders against the laws respecting the ad-
mission of Members to this House. He says it is an empty
parade to take up this point—that it is unjust to attempt to
impose punishment for bribery, when it is notorious that
persons in that House censtantlyi obtain their seats by in-
fluencing votes by means inconsistent with the duties of good
patriots. Does lie expect to see any system established
which will exclude all sorts of influence ? It is impossible ;
we do not live in .Republied Platonis, nor is it possible
that these populi fasces should be obtained without in-
fluence of some kind. The Noble Lord says that the re-
presentation of counties is of the purest hind we have, and
talk of its being an empty parade and mockery in us to ex-
claim against bribery in boroughs. But to prevent all
influence being exerted, the Noble Lord must prevent any
interchange of good offices between landlord -and tenant.
When the Noble Lord proves to me that a great landowner,
on the eve of a county election, calls his tenants together,
and says to them, " you and I have lived together many
years in habits of friendship and good feeling towards each
other ; but in the approaching election yon must not permit
that consideration to operate with you; there are several
candidates, ypu must weigh well their merits and prin-
ciples, and if vou prefer those of another to my own, or
those of my relative, you will of course give him the pre-
ference in your vote—when I say the Noble Lord proves to
me that that is the practice, then 1 shall be ready to second
him in saying that it is impossible to have a more perfect
system than the present. lu this, as in all other cases, the
law can only take cognizance of acts which are visibly
bad, but it cannot of those which are doubtful. In the
abstract there is no reason why a man should not prefer
a stranger to his brother, and why the influence he exerts
in favour of the hatter should not be equally reprehensible
inn the eye of a theorist, with that exercised for an indif-
ferent person. But these feelings which a man has
towards his brother will influence him, and miserable
must that country be where they do not influence all men.
--(Hear, hear.)—lt is well for the philosophers to say,
that these feelings ought to have no influence; but they
have influence, and it is impossible to eontroul them,
or the thousand other indirect influences which will
operate in spite of all the theories in the world.
say further, that if they could be contronled, it is not
desirable that they should.—(Hear.)-_I beg pardon for
having, in imitation of those that have preceded me, gone
from the subject more immediately before the House. I
begged to postpone the declaration of my opinion with re-
spect to the case of Penryn, until I had an opportunity of
considering that of East Retford, and of forming my own
judgment of the circumstances upon which we ought to
frame our decision in this case. I have examined the evi-
dence in this case, and after what I have stated, I need
hardly say that my opinion is in favour of the establish-
ment of so much delinquency on the part of East Retford,
as to call upon 1.19 to consider the subject of disfranchising
it. Supposing my opinion should be consonant with that
of the House, we shall have two places to dispose of, or at
least that we shall be at liberty to think of disposing of.
I have made up my mind with respect to the course proper
to be pursued, and am ready to declare it. I am aware
that this is not a proper opportunity to speak upon the
subject of Penryn, but having examined the questions to-
gether, I cannot give my opinion upon one without refer-
ence to the other. Up to the case of Grampound, it had
been the uniform practice to give the franchise to the
neighbouring hundred. In the cases of Cricklade, Shore-
ham, and Aylesbury, that practice was followed with-
out objection, so almost to have been considered a matter
of course. The agricultural interest had the entire
benefit of the change. In the case of Gratnpound,
however, a new principle was introduced, and, at
least as far as this House was concerned, it was pro-
posed to transfer the franchise to Leeds. A Bill to
that effect passed this House, and was sent up to
the House of Lords, who rejected the proposal to
transfer the franchise to Leeds, but proposed to give the
two Members to Yorkshire ; and, ultimately, by that rather
strong proceeding, Yorkshire had the franchise. Now,
how shall we deal with the present case? In all cases
where I consider the policy of a question apart front the
considerations of justice, 1 ant disposed to pursue that
course which will have the fewest partizans on one side or
the other. I ant not disposed, therefore, to affirm that
both these franchises should he transferred to manufactur-
ing towns, or that both should be transferred to the neigh-
bouring- Hundreds. lam inclined to compromise the con-
flicting claims, and instead of giving both to the manufac-
turing interest, to give that interest one ; and the opposite
interest, I do not use the phrase in adverse sense—to the
opposite or agricultural interest the other. In the next
case it would be considered, that the second-rate towns
having received a franchise, it was just that the third rate
should receive one also. Were the principle once estab-
lished, that the franchise of an offending borough should
be transferred to one of the large towns, there would be
a keen look out, not for the sake of the public, but for
private purposes, for all cases of bribery. —( Hear, hear.)---
Nay, it is not altogether impossible that some case of
bribery might not be gut up if it were certain that the
franchise of the borough against which it was proved would
be transferred to the largest town that might be without a
representative. It may be said that in the four instances
which have already occurred, we have decided in favour of
the agricultural interest, By departing from this hitherto
invariable practice, by giving one of the present franchises
to a large manufacturing town, a concession of principle
is made to the extent that large towns are not excluded
hereafter from the chance of having bestowed upon them
any ftitule franchise that may become forfeited. At the
same time, havin franchises to dispose of, the flintier
rule is not absolutely broken. One I propose to give to
the agricultural interest, and the other, under !wooer mo-
difications as to the right of voting, to a large manufac-
turing town. It is not necessary to deicrmideingthelitt
whether that town shall be Manchester or Birmingham.—
The question now is, to reconcile my principle of giving
one of these places to a town, or the manufacturing inte-
rest, end the es lle:. to the Hundred, or agricultural inte-
rest. I decidedly- think, after bestowing all the modera-
ation and the time I could sPare which the subject allowed .
one, there is a distinct principle on' which we may deeide
the question. I will take the case orPenryn first. That
burough had distinet warnings from this House, which
East Retford had not. The first warning was in the
Report of the Committee finding that eorruption pre-
vailef's ; yet, after that, at the very next. election the same
cOrrnption was practised. After float a Bill peeled this
Hense 'to IFsfeanchiee it, which was threwn out in

the Lords ; and notwithstanding this manifestation
of the opinion of the HonFe, the same corruption
still went on. This, I think, is a strong case against
renryn. It is, besides, impossible to exclude alto-
gether from our inquiry the fact, that Cornwall, in which
Penrvn 'is situated, returns forty Meinbers to Parliament.
If we look to the county in which Retford is situate, we
shall find it returns only eight Members to Parliament.
Again, the Hundred in which Peeryn is situate contains
the Borough of Elston, whilst that in which East Ret-
ford is placed contains several large towns misrepi e-
sented. With respect to the addition in point of number
that would be made to the voters by extending the
franchise to the Hundred, that is certainly a matter of
importance to the town, but of none to Parliament. It
has been thought insall the previous cases, the natural
course to transfer the right to the vicinage of the dis-
franchised town, witheut considering whether the number
of voters that would thus be added would overpower the
influence of those belonging to the town. I would then de-
part from tke rule hitherto followed as regards Penrvn, and
adhere to it as regards East Retford. It has been said that
there are some individuals who hold great quantities of
land in this Hundred of East Retford, who will possess,
by the adoption of my proposition, an overwhelming in-
fluence in the elections. I can assure the House, upon
my honour, that I never heard of the idea, except in this
House, nor am I influenced by its consideration. • I have
read the evidence, and as far as I can form a judgment
upon ic, I do not think any one individual will possess that
overwhelming influence that is talked of. With respect to
the reasons urged for transferring the franchise of Retford
to Birmingham, I have heard several stated. Among
others, the intention of the Hon. Gentleman, who has con-
ducted
this inquiry, to offer himself as a candidate for that
town.—(Laughter. )—That however is nothing to me in the
consideration of this question any more than what :nay be
the number of voters added, by extending it to the Hun-
dred. If I know the fict, and I acknowledge that I be-
lieve it, and shall do so till the Hon. Member denies it, it
would not in the slightest degree influence myjudgtnent in
deciding between Birmingham and East Retford. Let us
examine the nature of the proposition for transferring the
franchise from that borough to some other county. The
county of Cornwall, as I have already stated, returns 42
Members, whilst Nottingham returns only eight. The pro-
posal then is nothing less than to reduce ntose eight Members
to six. To set the injustice of this in a clearer point, I
will state to the House the result of some calculations I
have made. All the counties return 489 Members, and
there are 40 counties in England. Now, if we divide 480
by 40, giving my opponents the odd nine, it makes an
average of twelve for each county. The average number
for Nottingham then is twelve, its actual number is eight,
and the proposition is to reduce these eight to six, for a
population of 18,600. It is for these reasons that I pro-
pose to transfer the rights of Penryn to a large manufac-
turing town, and those of East 'lcahn' to the county.
This is not only not unjust as regards the places concerned,
but is an equitable compromise between adverse opinions.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that the corruption of
East Retford had been so clearly demonstrated by the evi-
dence, that he would not waste a single observation upon
that part of the subject. And, with respect to the next
question, viz. what they should do with the elective fran-
chise when they had deprived this Borough of it, he would,
with the concurrence of the House, defer his observations
until he knew what course the House meant to take, so as
to open it for discussion.
The question, that the House resolve itself into a Com-
mittee, was then put from the Chair, and agreed to.
On the question that the Speaker leave the Chair,
Mr. N. CALVERT rose to move, pursuant to notice,
" that it be an instruction to the Committee, to make pro-
vision for preventing bribery and corruption in the borough
of East Retford, by extending the tight of rotinr, to all
freeholders of the hundred of Bassetlaw." The Hon.
Member observed that the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site (Mr. Secretary Peel) had admitted that the elective
right of one of the Boroughs should be transferred to the
agricultural interest. In that case, one of the adjoining
Hundreds would be the best selection for the purpose. The
Hundred of Bassetlaw had a population of 2,000 free-
holders, and an annual rental of 191,000/. of real property.
As the greater part of this was in the hands of the Yeo-
manry, there was little to he feared from the influence of
the Noble Duke (the Duke of Dorset) whose property ad-
joined. It was not here as in Ireland, where whole agri-
cultural districts were under the influence of one individual.
It was his wish to assimilate the present Bill to the Bill in
the case of Aylesbury, in which provision was made for the
pure voters. He recommended to the House not to go to
the extreme course upon this occasion, but to be content
to give the elective franchise to the Hundred, as that course
would be the most likely to meet the least opposition in
another place.
The motion having been seconded, and put from the I
Chair,

Sir J. MACKINTOSH then addressed the House to
the following effect :—Sir, I rise to oppose the Hon. Gen-
tleman's amendment; and in stating the reasons which in-
duce me to do so, I will be as brief as possible, not only for
my own convenience, but also that I may not trespass upon
the patience of the House. It has been justly said by the
Right Hon. Secretary fur the Home Department, that how-
ever intricate the subject may be in other respects, and how-
ever various the opinions which may be entertained on
other points, the decision to which the House has already
come, releases any Hon. Member from the necessity of en-
tering into an examination of the evidence by which the
corruption of the borough has been established. That fact
is no longer disputed. lam entitled to consider that the
House of Commons has determined-1 will not say that
the borough of East Retferd shall he punished, for that
would be an incorrect expression—bt.t that it is unfit to
discharge the public trust reposed in it by the Constitution ;
and that the corruption practised in it has ken so distinctly
proved, that it is the duty of the Legislature to deprive it of
the privilege originally granted it fur important public ob-
jects, and to bestow that privilege in some other quarter
more worthy to enjoy it. Sir, in what lam about to
state on this subject, I shall lay out of wy argument all
considerations grounded on the expediency of Parliamen-
tary Reform. My opinions on that question remain
unaltered ; but the introduction of them on the present
occasion would be uunecessaq and impertinent. In the
support of the Bill under our consideration, as all the friends
of the general question of Parliamentary Reform will
heartily concur; so, on the other hand, it will exhibit no
inconsistency in those who are opposed to that question to
join with them in support of thepresent motion. It hasbeen
justly observed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that where
evidence has been given of gross, long-continued, and wide-
extended corruption, the elective franchise may safely be
taken from the place in which that corruption has been
practised, even by those who would more than hesitate to
adopt any general plan of reform in the Representation.
By agreeing to the present Bill, the opponents of general
Parliamentary Reform will strengthen their case against
any measure, which they may deem sweeping, rash, and
dangerous. Whether in future any more extensive plan of
Reform may be adopted, I leave to the wisdom of Parlia-

went to determine. It is sufficient for me, on the present
occasion, to say that whatever opinion any Hon. Member
may entertain as to the more general question; he may,
with perfect consistency, vote in favour of the present Bill.
Although the Hon. Member's Motion be in form to pre-
serve the elective franchise to the burgesses of East Retford,
though not to the Borough, that proposition is not founded
on tenderness to those of the burgesses who may be sup-
posed to be pure. His object is to create another body of
constituents ; to give to two thousand Freeholders the right
now possessed !ay two hundred Corporators. Here it is
clear that the House is called upon to deliberate on the
creation of a new elective body. We have determined to
take away the privilege from East Retford. We are now to
look about rim the best substitute for that corrupt body.
It is as new a question, as it the Borough of East Retford
had been swallowed up by an earthquake ; and as if not a
single voter were left alive. The question is divested of all
reference to the supposed rights of supposed pure electors
in the Borough—of all the considerations which influenced
the House in the early cases of Crampoons], Aylesbury,
and Cricklade. It is a question of establishing a new body
of constituents; and it ought to he considered simply as a
great question of civil policy, unincumbered by the slightest
vestige of any claim ou the part of the Corporators of East
Retford. This being the case, the Right Hon. Gentleman
exhibited much adroitness in introducing that as an under-
stood proposition, which there was no pretence for so con-
sidering. Even supposing I were to agree to the Right
Iron. Gentleman's proposition (on which I will speak pre-
sently), that the elective franchise should be
val a gricul' ri given to the
interest, it does not follow that the Right
Ilon. Gentleman is silently to assume that that agricultu-
ral interest must be in the neighbourhood of East Retford.
Where is the link between the Right Hon. Gentleman's
premises and Isis conclusion ? Why is the vicinage of that
Borough full of corruption, the very atmosphere of which
is foul and tainted, to be preferred to the districts likely
to return better Members to the House of Commons? All

:he three cases which.have been alluded to occurred in the

infancy of legislation on those subjects; they were timiditi
their character—uni the motives bywhich they were dic-
tated were mingled with a certain 6gree of tenderness fur
the individuals who were supposed to be innocent of the
corruption proved against the great body 0: the eiegtors.
Those rases must, in fact, be considered extensions of

old rights, not as creations of new. But here, Where it
hat been shown, not.yithstandin7 the artifice which nit-

turally seeks to conceal the fact, that the number of pure
electors in the whole borough is not so great as that of the
innocent persons whose existence would have obtained
mercy for the condemned cities of nld, the analogy which
it is attempted to establish to the three infant attempts at
legislation on theses subjects, completely fails. We are
now free to choose, front the whole body of the inhabit-
ants of England and Wales, that body likely to send to
this House such Members as will be best qualified to pro-
mote good government and the adoption of wise laws.—
We are not hound to pay the least regard to the Ylundred
in the neighbourhood of the Borough. This is a point
over which the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think
that it was much easier and more convenient to slide, than
to dwell upon it. Ile appeared to he driven to the situa-
tion of him, who

quaa
Desperat tractata niteoeere passe relinquit."
The Right Hon. Gentleman talked a great deal of the aye'
rage of the Representatives of the various counties of Eng-
land. Sir, I well remember baring, in former Parlia-
ments, heard this duct/rate of symmetry, and proportion,
and average, assailed by that powerful reasoning and bril-
liant wit which, alas ! will never he again heard within
these walls.(hear.)—l have heard almost all the oppo-
nents of Parliamentary reform speak against this doctrine
of proportion. I have heard eulogium heaped upon eulo-
:gium, and panegyric upon panegyric, with reference to the
irregularities of oar system of Representation. I am, my-
self, old-fashioned enough, even as a Parliamentary reformer
not to wish altogether to depart from those irregularities.
Ido really wish that the Right Non. Gentleman would
deliver this question from the nonsense of averages; as I
do hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who is soon to
bring forward another great question—the question of the
Corn Laws—will deliver that question from similar non-
sense--(llear.)--The view of Cornwall on the one Laud,
and of Wiltshire on tkeother, must have a tendency very much
to disturb those who are friends to the system of averages. If,
however, we must have averages, at least let them not hr nu-
oierical ; let them be founded on a comparison of property
and interests. Then, indeed, the difference between forty-
two Members for Cornwall and four for Rutland would
appear extreme. Sir, I repeat, that in arguing this ques-
tion, the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to me to offer no
reason whatever for preferring this hundred of Bassetlaw,
to any other district. He assigned reasons for preferring
making the transfer of the elective franchise to the agri-
cultural, to making it to the manufacturing and commercial
interest ; but he ;wiped no reasons whatever for making
it to this particular Hundred. If any place in Lancashire
or Yorkshire, had been preferred by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, I could have understood the proposition. The
Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to, think that his whole ar.
gumeut was complete when he had compared a Hundred in
Cornwall with a Hundred in Nottinghamshire. Now,
really, it by no means follows, that because the one place
is unfit to enjoy the elective franchise, the other is fit to
enjoy it. lam very ready to allow, that nothing can he
more abominable than the first ; but does it follow that the
last, even if it be expedient to transfer the franchise to an
agricultural district, is precisely the district to which it is
desirable to transfer it? And now, Sir, for a few words
on the preference which the Right Hon. Gentleman shows
to the agricultural interest. The Right Hon. Gentleman
talks of innovation on the Constitution. I contend, that
to choose a great manufacturing 'town, for the purpose of
conferring upon it the elective franchise, would be a much
less innovation on the Constitution, than to vest the right
of returning Representatives in any county, or part of a
county. My reason is this—it may indeed be anticipated
by every one who duly considers the history of this coun-
try—it is perfectly well known that until the union with
Scotland it was the practice of the Crown to grant the
right of returning representatives to Parliament to towns as
they gradually rose to consideration and magnitude. lam
aware that this practice was not founded on any regular
principle, or on any uniform public motive. But, al-
though it is true that many insignificant towns were en-
franchised, there was no instance, down to the time of
Charles 1., of any great and important town being left
unrepresented in Parliament. If we look at the Act giv-
ing the right of being represented to the freeholders of the
County of Durham, we shall see that it was also given to
the freemen of the City of Durham. This ancient practice
of the English Constitution fell into disuse in consequence
of the Union with Scotland. To give the right of repre-
sentation to places not adequately represented, would be to
act in conformity with the ancient usage ; hut to give an
additional right of representation to places already ade-
qnately represented would he an innovation not justified by
example or precedent. It is not on the ground of innova-
tion that I myself object to it ; but surely it behoves
those who are the opponents of general reform to be watch-
ful, and to give their support to that of the two proposi-
tion; which is the less innovation. Now, to place
burgesses in the room of burgesses—to give to towns
what other towns have enjoyed, is a much less
innovation than to give freeholders what has been taken
from freemen, and to place knights of the shire,
or individuals of a similar character, in places which the
Constitution intended should be filled by manufacturing
and commercial members. Not only in the form and the
letter, but in the spirit, the one was evidently a much
greater innovation than the other. It was much more
being
natural that burgesses should succeed burgesses, than that
those who were the guardians of the landed interest should
succeed burgesses. The Right Hon. Gentleman has stated
that he entertains sonic notion that the success of the mea-
sure
ieltseiotwatehhreeersaetg. er,
Whatii(l,luldtipael is the
ndepend upon
d pt
hreeose thenonetth.oerf stateo
tothe transfersmanufac-
turing
fthee
as
Three boroughs have been diefeanclused, and their rights
have been transferred to the hundreds; that is to says to
the lands around them. A fourth borough has been
disfranchised, and its rights have been transferred to the
county of York. lam aware it will be said, that although
nominally to the county, a portion of that representation
may be considered as belonging to the town of Leeds.—
Even es its that allowance, let us see how the matter
stands. Six Members have been at once transferred to
the landed interest; and at least one of the other two
added to the representation of Yorkshire. So, there-
fore, there is only one, and he not directly, but indi-
rectly, who can be justly considered as the representative
and guardian of the great commercial interest,. Thus, Sir,
it appears that under the head of Reform there is an im-
mense arrear due to the manufacturing and commercial
in-
terests. The proportion between the grants to the agricul-
tural and the grants to the raanufacturing and commercial
interests is at present as seven to one. Having allowed
that preponderance to be established, are we to leave the
inequality undisturbed, and to go on increasing the two in-
terests equally? Sucia, however, is the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's proposition. But that is not all. The great and
ss of persons that interest
i m
ruling- classes in this country consist of the landed interests.
I have no desire that it should be otherwise. I have no
wish to disturb the station which that interest holds. But
at the same time I am perfectly justified in saying, that if
ithere t beth
the
1 interest
ri
sEt.
If
Englandunprotected,
env
class
kingdom is weaker than it ought to be, it cannot be said
that it is the class of landed proprietor!. I should be very
sorry if it were otherwise. But certainly, under such
cir-
cumstances, it is a very moderate claim on toy part if I
confine myself to declaring that we ought to make a full
payment of the arrear due to the commercial and manufac-
turing interests, before we dream of going on equally in
our grants. As to what the Right Hop. Gentleman has
said of the probability of insuring success to these measures
in the other House of Parliament if the course recommended
by him be adopted, I can only say that I always feel a very
great uncertainty as to the determinations of that noble and
august body. It is probably owing to the superiority of
their wisdom, and to the humility of my understanding' •
but I confess that 1 can never pretend to' calculate upon
their decisions. I cannot even conjecture them. How,
then, can I allow the supposition of the Right 800. (.gentle-
man to influence my vote on this '
question? As a burgess,
118 a goo. .
divan burgess (to use the name given by our ances-
tors), sitting Perliatnent for a borough in Yorkshire, 1
must proceed on the plain principles of common sense. I
must proceed in every case on what appears to me to be the
awnt(eet choice.(sitigninedcourseSir,
for t
do not know
liouse top
what
pursue
euHe oisu,setoof,:eLnuardlos
may think proper to do. .But I know that the only safe
that House the result of our own mature and uninfluenced
deliberation, seconded—as Iti l • believe in I •it
rm y• t case
5%-ill be seconded—by the almost unanimous voice of the
people of England ; in the well-founded hope and expecta-
tion, that the House of Louie, in a matter affecting the
other House of Parliament, connected with the equitable
representation of the people, and tending to the return ofe
Alembers of a character to support the good government
coet
the kingdom, the equal administration of justice, and. h
p t
enactment of wise laws, will at least pay some et", the
to
the opinions of the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses Ottt ,
Commons' House, as to what is due to thei,trueeofth
represen-
tation of the people, and in conformity to
the reuse
to great body of the people. —(bear, hear. )- ,
should meleiy.
de-
part from this sound principle,
involve
myself ind colnectut ee
myself in labyrinths, and lose
and in all probability should,. as the reward of coo-
hopes tele would cessions, be induced to cheris,e.
even-
tually prove delusive. No, Sir, I never consent
to put the dignity and independence. of this House into
the hands of persons of whoseafiectione and inclina-
tions I can know nothing. It may be said that we ought
non wantonly to iuenr the risk cf a breach between the two
fleuaes of rarliament, Sir, I deprecate am InUeb ae ant

man ran deprecate any serious difference bettleau the
Houses ; but it is impossible for me to suppose, that in a
case like this, the difference could be either very serious or
very durable, If the sense of this House be deliberate',
and decidedly, and, if need he, repeatedly pronounced....
(Hear, hear, from Mr. Wynn)—it' under such circum-
stances we should he loudly seconded (which at the present
moment would be a superfluity) by the voice of a numeruoi•
and powerful people, I cannot pay the House of Lords so
bad a compliment as to think, that they would not daly
weigh all the circumstances of the case, and consider it
only reasonable that the motives which had influenced us,
and the motives which had influenced the people of Eng-
land, should be allowed to influence them,—( llean)_—
Let us at least adhere to the ancient maxim, " So to act
that if we fail we shall not be disgraced." I hope, Sir,
that in what I have said I may not be supposed to have
insinuated any thing against the other House. Insinua-
tion I would have disdained, had I been disposed to ad-
vance any charge ; but I felt bound to declare that which
I have declared, in maintenance of the independence and
dignity of the assembly to which I have the honour to
belong.—(Hear, hear.)-4t has been said by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that if the Elective Franchise were trans-
ferred to Birmingham, my Hon. Friend would imme-
diately be returned for that place. Unquestionably—Yu-1y
Hos. Friend should succeed in this measure, he will have
well earned ;telt a distinction. He will have impaxteel new
motives of attachment to the Constitution to a numerous
and enlightened body of men. But I leave it to my Hop.
Friend to state the reasons which induce him to recom-
mend that the elective franchise of this Borough should be
transferred to Birmingham. I have nothing to do with the
question as it respects Birmingham, except (comparing it
with the seetion of a county to which the Right Honour-
able Gentleman proposes to transfer this franchise) to ask,
whether the inhabitants of Birmingham, an unrepresentesl
community, a population of &hundred and twenty thousand
inhabitants, abounding with men of property, character,
and intelligence; or the comparatively small number of
fifteen hundred freeholders of Nottiugham.shire, all of
whom already possess the right of voting for Members
of Parliament, should be selected as the successors of
the delinquent Corporators of Retford—(Hear.)—Now,
Sir, I ask the House whether this is not a question which
answers itself? Can any man pretend to say that the claim
of Birmingham to this transfer of the Elective Franchise
is not far superior to the claim of a portion only of the
county of Nottingham, sr that the former is not much
more likely to make a sound choice of representatives than
the latter? Why, I ask, should we refuse this right to
Birmingham, possessing such an extensive population, in
order to give it to a number of persons not exceeding one
third of the population of Nottinghamshire. Let the
House consider but for a moment the vast importance of
the iron trade, of which 'Birmingham is the chief and
centre point—a trade spreading itself over a country com-
posed, as I may say, of towns--a trade running through
Warwickshire anti Staffoldshire. I sin not sure whether
iron form the second or third of the great branches of our
trade; I think it is the second ; but whether second or
third is inuuaterial to my argument ; I say that that trade
is the least directly represented of any of the three
great branches. It is neither my intention nor
my wish to mention the names of other branches of our
internal traffic; but I repeat that the iron trade is the
least protected of all.—(Hear.)—But, Sir, we have now pre-
sented to us the opportunity of remedying this evil, by giving
two Members to Birmingham on the disfranchisement of the
Borough of East Retford. The Hon. Member has talked to us
of the population of this Hundred; I wish he had given
us some information as to the population of Staffordshire
and Warwicicsliire.—(Hear.)—l wish he had told us the
proportion of representatives to the population of these
counties, as compared with the county of Nottingham,
instead of telling us that there existed a small arithmetical
disproportion between the places to which he has alluded.
The question of disfranchising corrupt boroughs, anti trans-
ferring the franchise to large towns, was so ably handled
by my Noble Friend (Lord Dudley) then Mr. Ward, that;
I think I cannot do better than quote some of his obser-
vations. That Noble Lord proceeded with such a niinture
of wit and argument, that every pleasantry contained a
reason, and every assertion a proof. It had been said,
in the course of the discussion to which I allude, that
the corruption which had been rarrieA on in the
boroughs of Gatton and Oh! Sarum was enough to
make our ancestors rise front their graves. " No,"
said Mr. Ward, " that is not enough to make our ances-
tors rise from their graves, for they had had their Gattonst
anti their Old Sarnms as well as ourselves; but there •
is a circumstance which is enough to call them frum their
graves, and that is, to see in the present day towns larger.
and more populous than their London totally unrepresent-
ed"—(Hear.)—ls it possible, I ask, to express the defects
of the existing state of the representation better, or in
fewer words? I say, Sir, that if the House does not avail
itself of this opportunity of giving two representatives to
one of the great towns, we shall lose one of the best oppor-
tunities that ever presented themselves of sinking the
Constitution more deeply into the hearts of the people; and
attaching the whole of the community to our national in-
stitutions. We shah also lose the opportunity of giving to
one of our greatest trading interests that protection which
it requires, and in the absence of which it is left depending
solely on the justice of Parliament. We have been told
that, to transfer this franchise in the way recommended by
havtheaetiththeer theon
my Noble Friend, would be to establish a new principle,
and that we ought not to fetter those who may come after
us by the adoption of such a course. Sir, I deny that the
lt"rignekttoalst',a, bye etcht
si s. Billl
maintain wo u l d
Parlia-
ment of future times would be empowered to exercise the
adopt the same wariness in acting upon a precedent as we
or
rutrisele
otherrecom omfetTileesed
Fame rights and the same discretion, and, no doubt, would
do at present.—lt is sufficient—aye, more than sufficient
for sa—to look at what is passing around us, in order to in-
duce us to sanction changes that have become necessary,
without venturing to conjecture either what could be done
by those who came after us, or what course the other House
of Parliament may think it right to pursue with respect
to this measure. We have been told amongst other
things, that this Bill would have the effect of creating
combinations to detect bribery at elections. But, Sir, I
would ask, is that so very great an evil ?—(Ylear, hear.) I
say, the disfranchisement of this borough would operate as a warning to all others, and if those others trangressed the
law in the face of that warning, why let them pay the
penalty of their delinquency. An Hon. Member has talked
of this disfranchisetneut as a punishment to the voters.
Sir, I protest against the use or application of the term. I
say, we. are only taking away the franchise from persons
unfit to exercise it properly. if I looked upon the Bill as
a punishment, I should object to it; but I view it in a
very difkrent light. I look upon it as a measure of great
legislative policy, which this House exercises for the gene-
ral benefit of the community. For my part, though long
affected br illness, 1 came down determined to bear
my public testimony to the benefit of this measure, while
others of a like beneficial tendency will bear down the
name of my Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) to the
latest posterity.—(Hear, hear.) If I have not been able
to enforce my opinions in favour of this most sacred, most
excellent reform, I have at least discharged my conscience
from the charge of not having given it my humble support.
It is the beauty of our Constitution, that while we are
enabled to maintain our institution, we are, by its flexibi•
etsionigiAifdi.ann:altenlnederi
isri.nui oeietsnni et
agricultural
andHe Qtilie,is observes],tdi::ti
lity, also enabled to adapt it to circumstances, without '
East Retford in its present si-
tuation, are so 'dreadful in their immediate consequences, and
*Zeman sat down amidst loud cheers.]
General GASCQYNE rose amidst loud cries of " Que
d
tion." lie supptonrotridtitiahne
thatiltdi 'or.lazeailtaingi
rroleb.itoreleionr:tutsgfE:oooNritn'illEintilit‘iTel'
ei'
adoptinge iTortfeuiffpaoelitrp.rseit,
supported
ealeit:sdiss—etcli eiae[n'ersimi;l
se:on:, is
ootinulig.. mohiauitni ilet(ioia' Learned
n givenl.
the di o
lnGeno:tnn. (o'.:
any means so
it.titzaita'en.Y particularly after • the very able and
powerfully
question.
ers. He did not think that
dis-
tricts,
who
agriculturalwere
interests were by
Enkoctt i vfererei nThi::oelltidled
the io nthat House.
represented
Mr. W. hour,-
wYNN did not wish to obtrude himself on the
r !louse
ch of
eloquent sr" and Learned Membee for Knaresborough. The question, however, was of anti'. importance, that he could not reconcile it to himself to givo
a silent vote iipon it. The Hon. Member proceeded to
cutter shortly into the grounds upon Which lie supported the
• motion in preference tq the tut:wadi/tent, but the ' in
the House rendered him at intervals inaudible in ise
gal-
he
With respect to what might be done •' I thea
he thought they had nothing to do. It
„4-suft(iieitier place
of Commons to adopt that course which the deemed thy,
1(12'7
per, and to leave it to the other House to do asy tlee7l prd.-
Thve were, he perceived, three modea of 1 '!Yul) ease
o 'taming free-,
doin in this borough—by birth, by se. •
revsme, and by redepo-.
tower ands'
by this latter means, 4
power and influence might ereatePZ."l P""ssiog Peet
overwhelm his antagonist.
Another ground,
votes as to
, too, whyhe
wished to transfer the franchse to !If'.
was this, that in large towns u-i.,_, g( populous towns
omn \sere represented,
there was always an action and re-action of public feeli '
while in large unrepresented towns the popular feeling nt!ett;
generally on one side, and opposed to those who they roe-
ceived deprived them of their privileges. Upon. tlueeo '
different ;munch he would support the motion.
Mn Secretary PrEL, in explanation, denied that In

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