The Sun.
London, England, 1821-03-22 00:00:00

Mr. Robert Banton Roxby called in ; and examined.

'You are a ship-owner at Shields ? I am.
How long have you been a ship-owner there ? Thirty years.
Have you a considerable number of ships in your own possession at Shields ?
Three or four.

Where have those ships generally traded to ? Since the year I 808 they have
traded nearly altogether to North America, Quebec, New Brunswick, and Nova
Scotia.

They have been employed in bringing wood from thence ? They have entirely.
Can you state what number of ships belong to the port of Newcastle ? Eight
hundred and thirty-one were registered in the port of Newcastle in September
1819.

What is the amount of their tonnage? One hundred and eighty-three thou-
sand, some few hundreds. '

What number of seamen do they employ on board those ships ? Upwards of
9,000. '

Your observations now extend to the port of Newcastle generally ? Yes, in-
cluding North and South Shields, Blythe, and Hartley.
In what -trade are the ships of the port of Newcastle generally employed ? The
coasting and the foreign trade ; lam speaking of the year 1819. In the year 1819
there were 475 ships in the coasting trade, an 356 in the foreign trade.
What proportion of that number of ships were employed in the North Ameri-
can trade ? Two hundred and nine.

What is the amount of their tonnage ? Sixty thousand tons.
What number of men are employed in the ships in the North American trade ?
Nearly three thousand.

What is the state of the shipping trade at present in the port of Newcastle ?
Very much depressed ; I never knew it so much so.
What are the particular causes which have led to the depression of the shipping
interest in that port ? The very low state of the freights last year.
Have you not received an intimation, that if any additional duty should be laid
on Canada timber imported, that must be deducted from the freights to compensate
the grower of the wood in Canada ? The ship-owner is aware that if any duty is
laid on the American timber it must come off the freight ; the freight was extremely
low last year, and of course that will make it less this.
Then your opinion is, that any alteration of the timber duties will very materially
affect that part of the shipping interest connected with the port of Newcastle ?
It is.

Could those ships, that are now employed in the North American timber trade,
be transferred to the Baltic trade ? A few of them might, but not many; the ships
employed in the American trade are too large for the Baltic in time of peace.
Are there not considerable ship-building yards and docks in the port of New-
castle ? Very extensive ; but the former are almost given up for want of employ-
ment.

You are of opinion, that any additional duties on the importation of the North
American timber, will probably lead to the total giving up of the whole of those
building yards ? 'We conceive so ; indeed, if the shipping is any more injured
thani ti at present, they must give up the trade altogether.

Have you yourself had much business in the trade with Norway ? Not lately.
At one time, a good deal of business was carried on from the port of Newcastle,
with the ports of the Baltic ? A good deal.
Has that trade diminished much lately ? It has almost ceased.
You think it would be impossible for the ship-owners of that port to transfer the
vessels they now use in t North American trade, to_ anz extent to the Baltic
trade ? They cannot, th are too largeb
From the knowledge you have of that part of the country, are you not of opinion,
that any duties on the North American trade, would be equally prejudicial to the
shipping interests of the port of Sunderland? Equally so.
There is a very considerable interest in shipping, in the port of Sunderland ?
There are six hundred sail belonging to the port of Sunderland, and their tonnage
is about 84,000.
Do you know the number of men employed in the port of Sunderland ? Upwards
of five thousand seamen.
The observations you make as applicable to the port of Newcastle, relative to the
injurious effect of a duty being laid on American timber, will apply equally to the
port of Sunderland ? Not equally ; the shipping belonging to the port of Sun-
derland are of a smaller class, and many of them do not go to America.
What proportion of those in the port of Sunderland, are in the American timber
trade ? I should think, not more than one-sixth; the rest are employed in the trade
to the continent principally, and some few to the Mediterranean, and a very little
West India trade.
You are not aware that there is any complaint made of the badness of the timber
imported from North America ? Not any, that I know of; there was at first, but
that has nearly ceased, in my opinion ; in the ports of Sunderland and Newcastle,
they find the British American timber so much larger, and so much better adapted
for the purposes in the collieries, where almost all the timber is consumed, that it
is perhaps the best timber they ever had, or can have, for that purpose.
Do you conceive, fiom your knowledge of that part of the country, and of the
trade in which that country is concerned, that any additional duty laid upon the
raw material employed in the collieries would materially affect them in their basi-
ness? I should conceive so.
You have stated, that the freights are very low at present? They are.
Are they low in all trades, as well as the timber trade ? Lower in proportion in
the timber trade, we think, than any other, in my opinion.
Is ship-building going on now in those ports ? It has almost entirely ceased,
very few ships are building.
Since what time? Since the year 1819.
Did it continue up to that time, as usual ? In the years 1818 and 1819, some
few ships were built at Newcastle, and several at Sunderland.
What were the usual number built at Now...tic r IL is halal t. eay
What should you take to be the annual average number built at Newcastle
since the peace ? I should think not more than twelve or fifteen upon the Tyne ;
the number at Sunderland is very considerable.
What do you conceive to have been the annual number built at Sunderland ?
I can hardly give an answer to that question, but I should think fifty or sixty.
What number of ships do you conceive are now building on the Tyne ? I
am told only five ; I believe that is the utmost.
Do you know the number of the ships now building within the port of Sunder-
land ? lam told fourteen or fifteen.
Are the ships sailed at a loss now ? At a considerable loss.
What is the reason then for the building being continued ? The builders some.
times have very large establishments ; a great number of apprentices, that they
cannot get clear of until they have served their time; their building-yards and docks
are taken on lease at a high rent, and they are under the necessity of building, and
taking their chance what they can get for their ships. They find it, I suppose,
cheaper to do that, and to pay the establishment, and the poor rates and other rates
attaching to the premises.
You state that there are some ships now building in the port of Newcastle, is
there not a large proportion of American timber employed in building those ships ?
Not a great deal; they equip them in the flooring or lower decks, and bulkheads '
and bulwarks, and so on, with American timber.
You have no reason to complain of the nature of American timber for those put-,
poses to which you apply it in building your ships ? Not the least so ; I have laid
one ship's deck with American timber, and I approve of it before the other. The
ship I speak of had two decks, a quarter-deck and a main-deck : the main-deck was
laid with American yellow pine, and part pitch pine; the quarter-deck was laid
with wood from the Baltic. The ship has been at Sierra Leone, which was a very
trying place for ships ; they pine and rend there with the heat of the sun more at
that port than any port which I know. On her arrival at home, I examined the
decks very minutely, and I found the American decks had not rent or pined so much
as the Baltic decks ; the ship is here, and can be inspected.
You have stated that the ships have been principally employed in the American
wood trade since the year 1808, in what trade were they employed before that
time ? In the Baltic trade in some degree, but mostly in the coal trade before that
period, and in the transport service, but not constantly employed in any way.
Why were they put into the timber trade ? They were ships of large tonnage,
and they suited that trade much better than any other trade I could find for then'
after they were discharged by government.
Were they originally too large for the Baltic trade ? Yes, excepting in time of
war ; they might perhaps have done then, but in time of peace they were always too
large for the Baltic trade.

Does the Baltic trade require larger ships in time of war than in time of peace ?
The merchants cannot get small ships then, and are obliged perhaps to take the
large ; they always prefer small ships to large ones, except for carrying masts.
The Sunderland ships are smaller ships ? Yes, much smaller.
Then the objection to turning the Sunderland ships into the Baltic trade, dee°
not apply in the same way to them, that it does to the Newcastle ships ? It does
not ; the port of Sunderland has very few ships comparatively speaking that go
into the Baltic trade.

When you speak of low freights, does that apply to all trades, the coasting
trade and the coal trade? Yes.

Are they all low equally ? Not equally, the American freights are lowest
I think.
To what do you attribute the lowness of the American freight ? Principally to
the over-trading in the year 1819, when such an immense quantity of timber ivas
brought into this country.
Is it not true that the ships from the east coast go to Liverpool and to the west
coast for employment ? They in part supply all the kingdom of Great Britain.
Is not the American trade from the west coast, principally carried on by chips
from the east coast ? I cannot say principally, but a great number of ships g°,
from the port of Newcastle to the west coast, Liverpool, Bristol, to Ireland, and
to Scotland.

Do you happen to know whether a great proportion of those ships which can/
on the American timber trade, do or do not belong to the eastern ports ? A very
great proportion of them belong to the eastern ports.
How many, voyages do they usually make in the year from the western ports ?
From the western ports, generally two.
From the eastern ports ? Seldom more than one ; I never had a ship that made
a second voyage except one, she made two; but I should never send another, it pats
them so late into the season, they get torn to pieces in coming home.
In the neighbourhood of Newcastle have you latterly been much in the habit
of using American timber ? Yes.

Do you use it for the frame of the ship in ship-building ? Never; English oak
is preferred in that country.

Do you build much with Baltic oak ? No, very little.
Is that owing to the high duty ? Perhaps so ; but the quality of the wood is
not preferred in that quarter.

You prefer the American oak ? Yes, to the Baltic oak ; but there is very little
comes to that port ; there was formerly a good deal of Hamburgh wood went to
that port.
Have you been in the habit of using a good deal of the American fir ? Yes.
For what purpose is it generally used in the country ? It is used for all purposes;
both for building houses and in ship-building, excepting, as I said, in the froraFs
and planking of the ships ; they do not use it for that ; I have used it myself 111
building houses.

What sort of houses do you apply it to; to the better sort of houses, or the in-
ferior sort of houses ? The houses, perhaps, of the second or third descriPti°"-
The house I built was of the first description ; a shop in the town of Sunderland.
And you used the American fir? For part of the house ; not altogether.
Is it generally found as good for all inside work, and those common purposes ?
I should prefer it for my part, for inside work, from what I have seen of it;
I have used it for twenty years.

Is there much consumption for packing-cases and things of that kind, in yoi!t
part of the country ? There is a good deal used, but not like the quantity used sn
Liverpool and Manchester.

What do you conceive to be the proportion that the American fir used there'
bears to the whole consumption of timber? Full two-thirds of American ; the
collieries consume the most of the timber that is imported there, and they find roe
American timber so much preferable to the other, that they use it in preference!
it is at a cheaper price, and being much broader, it answers their purpose better
at the bottom of the pits.

Is the consumption of timber in the collieries very great ? Very great.
On the whole, for those purposes, the American timber is rather preferred tc,
Altogether ; for some purposes they will not use any other timber, if they eau ge
that at a cheaper rate.
Do you think they would prefer the American at equal prices ? I think tiler
would not, at equal prices, for the collieries.
Do you think they would prefer the American at an equal price, for the trr,
purposes for which it is generally used, independent of ship-building, inside W° its
and so on ? I.think so, as far as my opinion goes.; I should myself: it 0.
much better ; it is clearer from knots, and does not rend so much when it is 11,1,100
seasoned ; season it equally with Baltic timber, and I conceive it would u°t
so much.

If it was considerably lower it would, of course, be preferred ? No doubt.
Then supposing it to continue considerably cheaper, what reason
have you
believe that any alteration would take place in the importation of it to that part oi W.
the country ? I should believe it would not, if it continued considerably cheaPer.
What degree of cheapness do you think would still preserve it in full consumption '
there, do you think thirty shillings a load would be sufficient ? I think in the ports
of Sunderland and Newcastle, that might do, for the prejudice is partly done away
with against the American,timber in those two places, but I cannot answer for
other places, as I know there is yet a strong prejudice against it.
Then what reason have you to state that any alteration that is made in the existing
duties, must have a considerable effect upon the shipping of the ports of Sunderland
and Newcastle ? Because in my opinion, if any duty at present should be laid
upon the American timber, the merchant would expect the amount of that dull

to be taken from the freight.
How would that follow, if the consumption and the demand remained the "nig?