The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

PAUPER LUNATICS.

Sir R. FERGUSON wished to put a question to the
Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, with reference to
the management of criminal and pauper lunatics in
Ireland. He wished to know whether any measure was
about to be proposed on the subject.
Lord ELIOT said, that in the course of the recess
copies of the Report of the Committee appointed last
session to consider this subject, had been sent to each
district lunatic asylum in Ireland, with a request that
the persons having charge of such asylums should give
their opinions of the comparative merits of the different
planalsuggested:by the Committee. These Reports were
now in the hands of her Majesty's Government ; and
he hoped, at no very distant period, to be able to in-
form the Hon. Baronet of the conclusion to which the
Government had arrived.
POOR-LAWS.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. BORTHWICK rose and said that he bad heard
with great disappointment the answer which had been
given by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department to his Hon. Friend the Member for
Bridport (Mr. Cochrane), as to the time at which it was
proposed to go into Committee on the Poor-law Bill.
When the Right Hon. Baronet moved the second reading
of that Bill, he (Mr. Borthwick) did not oppose its pass-
ing through that stage sub szlentto, on the understanding
that an opportunity. would be afforded of discussing and
entering fully into its details, and also of discussing its
principle. The Right Hon. Baronet now proposed to go
into Committee on the Factories Bill on Monday next.
Now he (Mr. Borthwick) confessed that the time was
now arrived when it would not be presumptuous or im-
pertinent in him to remind the Right Hon. Baronet of
the interests which were affected by the Poor-law Act—
he might say the most important interests in this great
empire. He said that no time ought to be lost in re-
modelling the New Poor-law Bill, and he hoped the Right
Hon. Baronet would not allow Easter to pass before the
discussion of the new Bill took place, for he (Mr. Borth-
wick) knew, should that discussion be so delayed, that
another session would pass over before the Bill would be
fully considered.
Sir J. GRAHAM could assure the Hon. Gentleman
that he had as sincere a respect for the time of the
House as the Hon. Gentleman himself, and, therefore,
he would be as brief as possible. He could assure him
that he by no means depreciated the importance of a
discussion, involving, as it did, the interests of the most
numerous and most important class in this country. He,
therefore, cordially joined the Hon. Gentleman in hoping
that that discussion would be entered into with the
least possible delay. Still, there was another important
matter waiting for discussion, and that was, the
employment of children in factories. He appealed to
the House whether, on a former occasion, the principle
as well as the details of the Poor-law Amendment Bill
had not been fully discussed in that House ? He thought
that the most expedient course to pursue, therefore,
would be to go through the Committee on the Factory
Bill, and then to have it printed and circulated through-
out the manufacturing districts, and after that to go into
Committee on the details of the Poor-law Bill.
Mr. BORTHWICK wished to know if there would be
two Committees on the Factories Bill ?
Sir J. GRAHAU the Bill would go through

Committee, and in Committee he would be ready to
listen to any alterations that might be proposed. He
should then propose that the Bill, with the alterations in
Committee, should be reprinted, not for re-committal,
but in order that it might be circulated throughout the
manufacturing districts. After that was done, he should
propose to take the discussion on the details of the Poor-
law Amendment Bill. ,

THE RIVER PLATE. •
Mr. EWART wished to know if the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet at the head of her Majesty's Government would,
on Thursday or Friday next, be prepared to answer a
question as to whether he could hold out any hope of a
conclusion to the unfortunate state of affairs which at
present prevailed in Monte Video and the surrounding
country, and whether any measures had been taken to
secure British property therein ?

Sir R. PEEL said he would give all the inforrugtion in
his power whenever the Hon. Gentleman should think
fit to put his question.
SUPPLY.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. WILLIAMS rose, and after apologising for the
shortness of the notice he had given, said he had been
greatly astonished on looking over the estimates, at
the vast amount of force which it was proposed
to maintain, as well as the enormous, sum of money pro-
posed to keep it up. He found that the number of men
proposed this year was larger than in any year since
1815, at the time of the battle of Waterloo. Ile must con-
fess when be looked at the tranquil state of Great
Britain at the present moment, that this fact did strike
him with great astonishment. The number of men pro-
posed for the efficient service of the country was
129,667, to which were added 10,000 pensioners, for
whom provision was made in the present statement ;
artillery and engineers, 8,811; marines on shore, 6,000;
the Irish police—he took the number as stated last year,
and he understood that they had since been increased
9,000; making altogether an effective military force,
capable of being called into action at any moment, of
163,458 men. This was in the twenty-eighth
year of peace too, and at a time when her
Majesty had announced from the throne that
she was at peace with all nations of the world.
Now some persons, who had not seen the Irish police
force, would doubt that it was a military force. He
had, however, seen it, and he would confidently say that
he had never beheld a finer or a more efficient body of
men. Before the Committee of the House of Lords
on the Irish constabulary force, a letter was put in in
evidence, written by Major Brown, its present military
commissioner. He said, " They are one of the most
noble corps that ever were seen, and I am satisfied they
are equal to, and will do, anything. I wish I was out
of Dublin at the head of them, for there is not a man
amongst them that would not arrest the Pope or the
Archbishop of Canterbury."—(Loud laughter.) This
force, let it be remembered, the Lord Lieutenant had the
power to increase when he liked, and to any extent he
liked.—(A voice—" No, no.") Ile begged pardon—that
power was vested in him by the 6th Wm. IV., ,cap. 12,
sec. 13. That Act gave to the Lord Lieutenant the
power to increase that force to any extent that he liked,
to draw for the money to support that increase, and to
enforce a summary application to the grand juries of
Ireland for payment. So much for the efficient force of
the country. Now for what was called the non-efficient.
The number of yeomanry under this head was 14,263 ;
of militia on &if-pay, 6,000 ; of general and other
officers, 4,574; of private soldiers, 51,777 (deducting 10,000
for pensioners enrolled under the late Act); of retired ar-
tillery, 8,586; of marines, 6,000; of metropolitan police,
4,390; and of borough and county police, 7,000. Now all
these men, inefficient as they were called, could be armed,
He had himself seen policemen who were sent down into
South Wales standing at the Court-house, armed with
drawn swords, where heretofore the service was in-
variably done by the sheriff's officers, with their javelins.
Now here, in this non-efficient branch of the public
service, was to be found above 100,000 men, which,
added to the efficient service, made a grand total of
266,000 men. Now he asked the House if that was an
amount of force which could be justified in the present
state of the country? • With the privation and suffering
which still existed to so lamentable .a degree, and with
the country as tranquil as possible, they could not justify
such establishments. Eight millions sterling had been
added by the income impost to the taxes of the country,
and he could tell the Government that it was impossible,
if they asked for such votes of men and money as they
proposed to do—it would, he said, be impossible for the
Government to keep faith with the people by
the repeal of the income-tax at the end of the
third year, as by their own promise they were bound
to do.—(A laugh.) Now, was there any thing in the
state of this country, or in the relations of this country
with Foreign Powers, to justify the Government in de-
manding more men than were asked in the years 1822
and 1823 ? He would take the average of the last 24
years—from 1820 to 1843—and compare it with the
number of men demanded for the present year. The
average amount for each one of those years was in round
numbers 108,000 men. Compare this with the present
time, and there was an excess in round numbers of 33,000
men during the present year over every one of the last
twenty-four years. When he saw such an increase, he
felt bound to tell the Government it was their duty to
show the grounds for, and prove the absolute necessity of,
this vast augmentation. When he (Mr. Williams) first
took up the estimates, he naturally expected to find a
reduction in them; he was sadly deceived. The number
of men voted last year was 129,400. He and others
objected at the time to the vote ; and the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel) stated the difficulty which at the
moment was in reducing the large amount of force in
China, and he further stated, that though he considered
the amount he asked for absolutely necessary, at the
same time he proposed to effect a reduction of
5,700 men, which would bring the strength of the
army down in round numbers to 123,000 men.
Now there was no pretence whatever for not
acting up to what had been promised, for
we were at peace with foreign Powers, and if there were
a few more men in Ireland, there were so many the less
in England, which was as tranquil as it well could be.
Again too, there was no decrease in the cost of the army.
Last year, the amount was 6,225,0001.—in the present
year, it was 5,984,000/. ; the difference in the amount not
being a reduction, but a carrying over to another de-
partment—the commissariat. And here he must do the
Gallant Officer (Sir Henry Hardinge) an act of justice, in
saying that the way in which the accounts were pre-
pared did him infinite credit; they were clear, simple,
and intelligible, and he wished every other department
of the Government would take an example from his.—
(Loud cries of Hear, hear.) Now, in his opinion, these
accounts ought to be referred to a Select Committee.
If that were done, he doubted very much if the Govern-
ment would be able to make out a case for such demands
upon the public purse. Look at the Foot Guards, con-
sisting of 5,253 men, at a cost to the country of 58,400/.
more than what the same number of men in other regi-
ments required. He did not understand what was called
the stock purse in these favoured regiments. 9,257/.
was given to the Guards, but he did not find it given to
any other corps; and there was a special table allowance
and other gratuities, amounting altogether to 58,000/.
He said not a word about the Life Guards out of
respect to her Majesty —he merely alluded to
them. But it was different with the Foot Guards,

the partiality for which had a tendency to produce
great dissatisfaction among the officers of the line. He

greatly deprecated the system of giving colonelcies to
generals, who never, perhaps, saw the regiments to
which they were appointed, andi who, most improperly,
as he thought, made considerable sums from the clothing
of their regiments. He did not wish to see merit and
services go without just and ample reward, but he wished
to see it rewarded directly, as in the navy, and not by
such unworthy means as that of clothing regiments.
Again, why should the privates of the Guards get a
penny a day more than the men of the line ? The men
in the Guards ought, in his opinion, to be chosen from
other regiments, for their services and good conduct,
and they would then have a body of men that would be
looked up to by the whole service, and would be a pride
to the country. Reverting to the subject of the large
sums made by colonels from the clothing of these regi-
ments, he asked the house to look at that noble corps.
the artillery, which was clothed by the Government, and
not by its colonel. See how superior was the cloth they
wore, how much better their clothes fitted, how far more
commanding was their appearance. He contended that
there was no fair or regular rule in -the different corps
of the army, either in pay, dress, or service. Why, for
instance, should not regiments of the line, after en-
during the burning sun of India, and the bitter frosts of
Canada, be entitled to take their comfortable service in
London in their turn, and allow the guards to reap some
of the honours they had left behind them ?—(A laugh.)
Again, how was it that no one, unless closely connected
with the aristocracy, or possessed of great influence in
the House of Commons, was permitted to get a com-
mission in the Guards? The next point he wished to
refer to was that lumber known as the yeomanry
cavalry. He was satisfied, if he could only get
a Committee of that House, the yeomanry
cavalry would very quickly be abolished. Why,
the fact was, that in any place where there was a
yeomanry corps, they could not go into a single shop or
house, where they would not see the landlord with a
large pair of mustachios on his upper lip, serving his
customers.—(Laughter.) He had witnessed such things
himself at Harrowgate, in Yorkshire, and he believed it
was general. This force had never been of any the, and
could not be ; if any outbreak was to take place, could
the thought be entertained, for one moment, of bringing
them out to assist the civil force. He was happy that
the Government had had the good sense not to make
use of them.—(Hear, hear.) He had now stated various
points with regard to these estimates, which he thought
ought to be considered by a Committee, and he could
point out a great number of their extravagancies, but he
would not fatigue the House by doing so. It was true
the people were in a better state, and there was
not so much depression in trade, but he was afraid
• that the present improved state of things was
not of a lasting character. He called upon the
Chancellor of the Exchequer not to be led away
by the present cheapness of money, as it had not been
produced by trade, but in a great measure by the pay-
ment of light gold into the Bank. The Government, in
his opinion, ought to be careful not to make estimates
upon the present prosperous state of the Bank, but they
should look forward to times of trouble and difficulty,
which would as surely come as the darkness followed
the light. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had pro-
mised them that they should not have the income-tax
beyond next year.
Sir R. PEEL—I never made any such promise.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the Right Hon. Baronet
had held out to that House and to the country that the
income-tax was only required for three years to bring
into a healthy state the finances of the country. The
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that these esti-
mates should be referred to a Select Committee of the
House. If any objection was taken to this motion, he
would not divide the House upon it, but content himself
with having made the statement he had done.
Sir 11. HARDINGE trusted that the Hon. Member
would not consider any remarks which he might make