The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-16 00:00:00

blished Church; and as the Roman Catholic religion was the
faith of the majority of the people of Ireland, so also he
thought that three centuries ought not to have been allowed
to pass away without the endowment of that Church in that
country. He thought that they ought in this case, for the
peace of Ireland, to make a provision for the spiritual wants of
all classes of the population of the kingdom, according to their
number. He knew all those subjects were open to much ob-
jection, and environed with many difficulties—( Hear, hear)—
but still he felt convinced that some such course of legislation
must he adopted in order to insure peace and tranquillity in
Ireland ,and win the affections of a gallant and generous na-
tion. The House should remember, that out of eight
millions and a half more than six millions were
Roman Catholics ( Hear, hear) and should grant
to them the same right as those which they were willing to ac-
cord to persons of any other religious persuasion. He knew that
Catholics and Protestants differed on doctrinal points, but still
he knew it was the fundamental principle of all Christian sects
to " do unto others as you would be done by," and all he asked
from her Majesty's Government was, act upon this text.—
(Loud cheers.) He knew they had many difficulties to contend
with, and that they had to battle against the long-cherished
prejudices of the people of this country ; but still the peace of
Ireland imperatively demanded that those difficulties should be
boldly mat. The Right Hon. Baronet had acknowledged that
the cause of all their differences was the question of the Esta-
blished Church. Ho (Lord Howick) certainly agreed with
him, that it was at the bottom of all their differences.—( Hear,
hear, and cheers.) Was not the House aware that until this
qnestion was settled they could never rely upon the Roman
Catholics of Ireland? for they would be :continually
seeking to overthrow this system, and no power could ever
induce them to submit to the present state of that Church.
Upon this subject the whole Roman Catholic body were united,
and had no trust in that Government, nor, indeed, could the
Government rely upon them. This unfortunate question met
them in every instance—it was even connected with the jury-
box.—( Cries of " Hear, hear," and loud cheers.) The late in-
dictment which had been just tried in Ireland could not be said
to be so much preferred against Mr. O'Connell as against the
Irish people.—( Loud cheers.) That eminent statesman, Mr.
Burke, in his speech upon the American question, which had
been so frequently quoted, said it would net do to apply the usual
narrow and pedantic rules of criminal jurisdiction, and that he
knew not how to bring an indictment against a whole people.
But her Majesty's Goverment were more clever than Mr. Burke,
for they had solved this truly difficult problem. He should
remind his Hon. an 3 Learned Friend that it was a fundamental
principle in the administration of justice to have an im-
partial jury. if a foreigner was to be tried he would have
the right to claim that one-half of the jury should be foreigners,
and was there less reason for imputing, prejudice to the jury
upon those trials than there was to doubt the impartiality of a
London jury in the ease of a foreigner. Mr. O'Connell and
his friends knew that there was a still stronger feeling against
them, yet they could not avail themselves of the privilege to
which every foreigner was entitled. He felt convinced that
if the Church question were settled there would be an end of
that combination which at present existed in Ireland, and per-
haps the Right Hon. Baronet would find numbers amongst
the Catholic population of Ireland who would be as staunch
supporters of his sliding-scale, and of the principle of agricul-
tural protection as he would for Church Reform—(Laughter)
—but while it was left unsettled it would absorb all others•
Were they not aware that the machinery of a free Govern-
ment was for the express purpose of giving force and effect
to the deliberate and express will of the great body of the
people. Trial by jury, the elective franchise, and the whole
machinery of a free Government were constructed for no
other purpose, and when they attempted to administer the
forms of freedom against the will of the people, it was a task
which neve' could be satisfactorily performed. It was then
that the institutions of the jury failed them, and the elective
franchise became a serious evil. Questions arose in every
turn, in every social relation. The Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Shaw) complained of the Irish landlords having
been treated with injustice. Still he (Lord Howick) thought
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could not deny that in Ire-
land many of the owners of land were unjust
~and oppressive.
The landlord was oppressive to his tenant ; and all those
struggles might be traced to the subject of the Church, which
ran through every portion of society. Whatever improvement
they introduced, still if they left this question open, they
would not get rid of the irritation. He came back then to this,
they must be prepared to do justice to the Irish people in this
matter of the Church Establishment, or they would see no ter-
mination to the existing state of that country. The fit would
continue, and the chronic disease would eat into the very vitals
of the country. There was no possible alternative or middle
course in the principle of government upon which they could
act. They could only rule through the affections of the people.
They could not hope to maintain the affections of the people
unless they really did justice to them ; and without the affec-
tions of the people there was but one alternative in governing
the country, and that was by force. If, indeed, it was in their
power to put an end to the forms of freedom—if they abo-
lished trial by jury—if they abolished the elective franchise
—if they could govern Ireland as a great Crown colony by an
order in Council, then he could conceive it possible that this
system could go en. They must abolish the free press—prevent
discussion of all kinds. If they could do this—if it were in
their power to establish such a system as that adopted by
Austria in the Italian provinces, it was possible, perhaps, for
them to return to a state of quiet. They might, by such a system,
drive the people into a state of apathy ; but he thanked God
that it was not in their power to adopt that principle. They
could not abolish the forms of freedom in Ireland, and,
therefore, having these forms of freedom existing, they must
govern in a spirit of freedom, or the present excited state
of society must continue ; and he could assure them, that if
they did allow it so to continue, they must be prepared
for worse results. The present system was dreadful, and was
corrupting everything that was good in itself. Even an ex-
tension of education would only make the Irish people more
sensible of the injustice under which they laboured. Even if an
improvement were to take place as to the wealth and resources
of the country, he believed that under the present system, it
would have no other effect than to make the present struggle
a permanent one, to which there could be no end. It would
not terminate even if that lamentable catastro-
phe were to occur, the hope of which
he feared there were men guilty enough to entertain, if the ex-
existing discontent were to break out into open rebellion, and if
the flames of resistance were to be crushed. He believed that
even if than awful calamity were to come upon us, when the
resistance was over, and tranquillity restored, they would be in
precisely the same condition as before. Nay it would be worse
than before, for all hope of reconciliation with
the Irish people would then be at an end.
There would then be no possible termination to the struggle,
except, perhaps, by that which under such circumstances would
be inevitable—not the repeal of the legislative union, but the
entire severance of the two kingdoms. Such a fatal result could
alone terminate so disastrous a struggle. God grant that they
might not, in their party divisions and party distrac-
tions, continue until it was too late for them to

apply a remedy. Before he concluded, having thus stated
his views upon this momentous question—before he concluded,
he had a few words to say upon the terms of the motion then
before the House. His Noble Friend opposite, the Secretary
for Ireland, last night said that this vote for a Committee was
not with a view to inquiry, but for the purpose of casting a
censure upon the Government, to be immediately followed, if
successful, by their resignation. It was perfectly true that, by
his vote, he meant to imply such an understanding of the meaning
of his Noble Friend. He thought it was absolutely necessary that
Parliament should proceed without delay to adopt measures of
a far more comprehensive kind, and of a far different charac-
ter, frum those promised by her Majesty's Government. This
was what he felt was implied by the vote, and he believed that

it was a parliamentary and constitutional method of ask-
ing the House of Commons to express its opinion.
He admitted also that the House could not express that opinion
without in a certain degree implying censure upon her Ma-
jesty's Government, and he admitted that, in the ordinary
course of affairs, the adoption of such a vote by that House
would naturally he followed by their resignation. At the
same time, he did most solemnly assure the House
that he did not support that motion because he wished
to achieve any party triumph, or because he
desired that her Majesty's Government should be
dismissed from power. That was not his object.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh," and cheers from the Opposition benches.) But
believing measures to be absolutely necessary, even whether
they remained in power or not, he must ask the House to sup-
port the motion. He looked upon this question as one which,
like the Catholic question, could never be carried by a mere
party triumph. He believed that the settlement of
this question could only be accomplished, as the
Catholic question had been accomplished, by the union of the
two great parties which divided that House and this country
—to sacrifice pre-conceived opinions and mutual hostilities,
and to combine in doing that which was necessary for the
welfare of Ireland and the safety of the empire. He was per-
suaded that this was the only mode by which those measures
could be carried—in fact, it was only this Catholic question
over again, in another shape. Precisely the same difficulties
and dangers which they had then to struggle with had now arisen
for them to encounter. He hoped the Government would
seriously consider how great was the responsibility which was
now placed upon them.—( Hear, hear.) He knew that they
on this side of the House could not carry this question
against their will. Had his object been to overturn the
Government, he felt that the House would understand that
he would not have expressed in so earnest a manner the
opinion he had that night avowed. He was not ignorant
of the great mass of prejudice—of honest prejudice
no doubt, that would be arrayed against him for doing so. He
wished to compromise no man by what he had said, but he was
persuaded that what he had said was the truth, and if they
calmly reflected upon it they would feel it to be so—that in this
conjuncture—this awful conjuncture of the fate of the British
empire, it was their most solemn duty to their God and their
country, to consider how the present state of Ireland could
be terminated by other means than those that he had
pointed out, and if they had no other means to suggest, which had
a rational prospect of success, not to reject that offered to them.
Having said this, it only remained for him to apologise sin-
cerely to the House for the time he had taken up, and to
express his deep regret at his utter inability to give utterance
to the half of what ho felt upon such a subject as this.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but the House
did not divide. _

On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, we found
Sir R. PEEL addressing the House. He said—For the
Noble Lord who last session said that he was not prepared to
endanger the Protestant Establishment in Ireland—( Cheers)
—and who, in the course of the present session, said that the
nearest approach that could be made to the satisfaction of the
Catholics, would be to double the grant to Maynooth—
(Cheers)—and who now proposed to have three sepa-
rate establishments in that country—a Protestant, a
Presbyterian, avid a Roman Catholic—far him now to
taunt Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of
the House, with not answering the speech of the
Noble Lord who had last sat down was to say
the least of it indiscreet, if not uncharitable.—( Cheers.) For
his part, he ( Sir R. Peel), seeing that a large portion of the
House was unwilling that the debate should be closed in the
present stage, would vote for the adjournment.—(Cheers. )
Lord JOHNI RUSSELL only rose to say that he did not
agree in the reply of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Laughter.)

Mr. AHLNES said that although many Members on that
side of the House did not think it would become their position
in it, to obtrude themselves at that hour of the night, yet it by
no means followed that they did not wish to speak betore the
debate concluded.—( A laugh.)

Sir GEORGE GREY did not rise to oppose the mo-
tion for adjournment. But as he had voted so
frequently with the present Government against re-
peated adjournments of one debate, he must say that it was
with surprise he witnessed the silence of the opposite side,
when his Noble Friend concluded.—( Hear, hear.) As it was

known that the debate could not arrive at its legitimate conclu-

sion until after the-First Lord of the Treastiry should have

spoken upon it, no gentleman on that (the opposite)
side could be expected to rise after his Noble Friend.
( Hear, hear ) He wished it, therefore, to be understood that
the adjournment was not at the wish of that side.—( Oh, oh.)
The SPEAKER then put the question, and the debate was
adjourned without a division ; and, there being no further busi-
ness, the House adjourned shortly after, at Ten Minutes to
Twelve o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 15.
Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from chi.
&ester against the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.

THE CATHOLIC OATH.
Lord STOURTON withdrew the motion, of which he had
given notice, for bringing under the consideration of their
ordships the construction of the Roman Catholic Oath.