The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-14 00:00:00

WOOL.

Mr. LUSHINGTON moved the third reading of the Wool-
len Cloth Stamping Bill.
Mr. BARING objected to it, and complained that the name
given to the Bill did not at all correspond with its contents. It
was not fair to the public, that provisions wholly foreign to the
professed object should be inserted in measures of thislind,
especially without the slightest notice. The Bill was of very
considerable importance, as it broke through the ancient sys-
tem, and allowed the exportation of sheep, bred in thiS coun—
.try, to our Colonies, from whence they might be reconveyed to
the Continent, and our woollen trade thereby materially injur-
ed. He should vote against its further progress.
Mr. LUSHINGTON contended that all the usual informa-
tion had been given regarding this Bill,-for the title of which,
on the Journals, he was not responsible. He thought the ap-
prehensions of the Hon. Gentleman wholly groundless.
Sir I. COFFIN said, that-the breed of sheep possessed ex-
clusively in England was the long-woolled kind, which would
not retain their coats in hot climates.

11/r. F. LEWIS supported the Bill, as he thought the injury
predicted to our trade from it was entirely visionary. Great
influence was produced on wool by soil and climate' and parti-
cular kinds would not succeed in warm -or in cold countries.
He did not see why our Colonies should not enjoy the benefit
of particular breeds of sheep, if those breeds did not degenerate.
Mr. PARSE thought the pruiciple of the Bill contrary to
the established policy of our ancestors, and therefore opposed it.
Mr. T. WILSON contended, that by means of this Bill
France and Flanders might obtain the long-woolled sheep ;
and if they did, great and perhaps irreparable- injury would be
done to our cloth manufacture.. The pretence was to export
sheep to the Colonies ; but it was an experiment, he had little
doubt, to deprive this country of what at present it exclusively
enjoyed. Our Colonies were now abundantly supplied from
America, and he saw no reason Why the system should be
altered. .

Mr. CALCRAFT was of the same opinion, and wished to
impress upon the House the impropriety of running any risk
with regard to so important a bi:anch of trade, ihrnishing em-
ploy to so many hands. At this moment as many wethers as
captains of vessels pleased might be carried out in the nature
of provisions for their ships; but this Bill expressly named

the Hon. Member for Cumberland respecting the
grant to Mr. M'Adam had been satisfactorily,
answered. He wished to know when the allow-
ance to his Royal Highness the Duke of Cla-
rence was again to come before the House, as
there were some of its Members who wished to
express their opinion upon that most extraordi-
nary grant.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that when the proper returns came before the
House, the grant to Mr.M'Adam would be found
in them. With respect to his Royal Highness
the Duke of Clarence's allowance, it was not his

intention to bring it forward that day in conse-
quence of the absence of his Noble Friend (the
Marquess of Londonderry.)
Mr. IIUME understood that one of the five
Commissioners of Excise in Scotland was recently
dead. lie wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Gentleman's plans of economy would in-
clude the filling up of that office. Many intelli-
gent men were of opinion that three Commis-
sioners were quite sufficient.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated
that there was no intention of diminishing the
number of Commissioners.

Lord MILTON wished to call the attention of

the Right Hon. Gentleman to the Spoiled Stamps,
Act. He understood that it was to be aban-
doned altogether for the present Session. Now,
although the Right Bon. Gentleman could not
carry that part of his .Bill which went to impose
new duties, yet it contained remedies for some
abuses, and the remedial part ought certainly not
to be abandoned.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
it was not the intention of Government to press
the Bill this Session, but to introduce a more
general measure in the next. -
Mr. BARING reverted to the subject of Mr.
M'Adam. No person was more sensible than be
of the merits of that Gentleman, and of the ser-
vice he had done to the country. But he consi-

Mr. Sm YTII (of Cambridge) was of opinion that
the country ought to adopt decisive measures,
although attended with considerable e' pence, to
destroy this traffic. During the war this country
assumed the right of searc, which enabled it
effectually to frustrate the schemes of the slave-
dealers; but that right ceased with the return of
peace, and therefore unless they were determined
that the treaties on this subject should remain a
dead letter, prompt measures ought to be taken
to render them effectual.' Those Commissioners
had been appointed to see that the terms of the
treaties were complied with ; but very little had
been done under the Commission in consequence
of the evasions of Foreign States. Under these
circumstances, he hoped no effort would he want-
ing on the part of his Majesty's Government to
induce those Powers over whom this country
might fairly be supposed to possess some in-
fluence, to grant their assistance in abolishing the
trade in slaves. lie alluded particularly to Por-
tugal and France—(llear !)—to which latter
Power this coznitry had restored her Colonies.—
(Hear !)
Mr. WAnat: wished to call the attention cf
the Committee to what was called the San Salva-
dor case, in order to show the hostile feeling
which the Portuguese arbitrators entertained
with respect to the views of this country on the
subject of the slave trade. The case was this :
His Majesty's ship Myrmidon chased a slave ship
on the coast of Brazil ; but, as she approached,
the latter lowered her boat, into which the slaves
were put. The slave ship was, however, cap-
tured, and carried into port- for adjudication.
The argument used against the capture was, that
the slaves were in the boat,and not on board the

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
with respect to Treasury prosecutions, they were
carried on by the Law Officers of the Crown,
and he saw no reason to interfere with the discre-
tion vested in them on such occasions ; bnt 'as to
the latter point, which related to Excise prose-
cutions, it was at present under consideration.
Sir JOHN 'NEWPORT observed, thit if ever there
was a time when the public had a right to expect
relief from the charges for conducting the State
prosecutions, it was the present one, as it ap-.
peared that certain private individuals had lately
associated together, for the purpose of prosecut-
ing all whom they conceived to nave committed
offences against the State.—(hear, hear !)
What had been done by the public prosecutor was
new 'to be done by private men, and, if so, the
country ought, at least, to derive one benefit
from it, namely, that of being relieved from all
the charges attendant on State Trials ; but in
the way the Government Was now going on, ill
demanding such sums for law expences, it was
evident that none of the evils to which such an as-
sCciation mutt give birth was to be counterbalanced.
by one solitary advantage, as it was not to save
us a penny of expence.--L(Hear, hear.)—For
what purpose then, or with what view, was such
a society instituted ? Was it to remove the re-
sponsibility which attached to the Law Officers of
the Crown, and to allow private persons, '.who
had no responsibility, to usurp their office, and
proceed with misjudging zeal and ignorant pre-
judice 10 denounce all opinion. which dicl. not
correspond with . the tenets 'of their own poli-
tical creed ?—(llear, hear.) If such persons, in
their eagerness, ord by means of a, common fund,
caused the ruin of individuals by law exPences,
on charges which they could not afterwards sub-
stantiate, who were to be responsible. ? The di.

rAirstitiga of cases intrusted to the Attorney-Ge-
neral, he contended, ought to be productive of a
diminution of expense. The society to which
he alluded called itself the Constitutional So-
ciety, but according to the plain sense of the
,Acts relative to such Associations, he must call
it unconstitutional and illegal.
The CHANCELLOR of the Excneoutn said,
that he did not conceive the vote before the
douse had any connection with the proceedings
of any Society whatever. 'The fact was, that,
the late prosecutions on state considerations had
Increased the expenses of that year, but he hoped
-tat nothing of the same nature would soon occur
again to cause any addition to be made to the
ordinary vote. _

After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT and
Waitttr.,
HumE observed, that in whatever causes
the Attorney and Solicitor-General could not at-
tend, they ought to get some person to attend for
them, and should not receive the fees on such oc-
-casions. He regretted that the Gentleman who
was Member for Colchester (Mr. Harvey) in the
last Parliament, and who had given so much at-
tention to the system of the Court of Exchequer,
was not then a Member, for if he were present
be-was sure he could adduce such arguments as
would prevent the Committee from agreeing to
the vote. The Iron. Member then begged to ask
what was the meaning of one item for retired al-
lowance to a Solicitor of the Treasury. If he
understood who was meant, this person was one
'who had made a large fortune in the public ser-
vice; he wished therefore to know who the Gen-
tleman was ?

Mr. A RBUTHNOT stated, that it was a Mr.
Litchfield ; and that his retired allowance was
two thirds of his salary.

Mr. HUME asked the amount of the two thirds.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, it was 15001. and that the Gentle-
:man had been more than 20 years in the service.
After a few words from Mr. HUME and Mr. ARBUTHNOT,
she vote was agreed to.
The next item was 22,8001. for defraying the Charges of the
..Salaries and Allowances of the Officers of the House of Lords
and Commons.

Mr. HUME expressed a hope that for the future these
Charges would be accompanied by an Estimate.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT observed, that if he had the honour of
olding the office which he then filled next year, every item
arould be stated in detaiL

The Vote was then agreed to ; as was that of 90,2521. for de-
fraying the Charges of employing Convicts at Home; anti also
:3061. for the Expences of the National Vaccine Institution.
The next item was 100,0001. for defraying the Amount of
Eills drawn in New South Wales.

SirJ. NEWPORT wished to know whether any measures
were taken to check such Accounts ? and adverted to the case
-cf a defaulter to a large amount.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that
-itnmediately after the unfortunate occurrence to which the Ho-
'noarable Baronet alluded, the late _Mr. Percival established a
system of accounts which operated as a eomplete check to pre-
vent such consequences in future. The fact was, that no person,
was now entrusted with a new grant until the former was ac-
counted for, so that he could not have at any time a large sum
.of the public money in his hands.
.Sir J. NEWPORT animadverted briefly upon the doctrine
entertained by some individuals that they had a right to traffic
and speculate by means of the public money, of which they had
offloo possession.
Mr. HUME, adverting to a previous Resolution respecting;
the expense of Police Offices, which the Honourable Gentle-
man had omitted because it was among the Civil Contingencies,
'objected to its being there, as it had the effect of keeping the
knowledge of the details from the House. He trusted that in
another year this item would be made the subject of a distinct
estimate, so that the propriety of it might be 'noxiously con-
sidered.

Mr. ARBUTHNOT acknowledged the propriety of the
Honourable Gentleman's suggestion, and promised that it
'should be attended to.

The Resolution was then agreed to.
On a Resolution for granting 69,453/. to make
good the deficiency of the Fee Fund in the De-
partments of the Treasury, the three Secretaries
of State, and the Privy Council,
Mr. litimE observed, that it would be much
snore intelligible if, instead of the balance, the
whale expellee of the departments in question
were stated, and stated separately. The expence
of those departments had considerably increased
within a few years. In 1796 the whole expence
of the Treasury Establishment was 26,043/. ; at
present it was 68,8541., being thrice the former
amount. Now the question was, whether triple
the former establishment was now requisite ? In
looking at the various items, it appeared that a
great increase had- taken place in the salaries of
the leading Clerks. Mr. Harrison, the Assistant
Secretary, had been put on the footing of a Se-
cretary, receiving a salary of 3,5001., besides
300/. for examining certain accounts. Mr. Har-
rkon had certainly been a long time in that de-
partment, and was a most deserving individual,
hut was not 3,800/. an enormous salary? -Look-
ing down the list, it would be found that each of
the three Principal Clerks had 1,5001., and th2re
were others at 1,4001., at 1,1001., at 6001., &c.
On the whole he contended that the expence of
the establishment ought to be made to approxi-
mate more nearly to that of 1796. He objected
also to the item of 5651. for retired allowances
aid superannuations. It was most objectionable
to allow such items to be among the efficient esti-
mates. They ought to be separate, and it was
his intention, before Parliament broke up, to
make such a proposition. The expence of the
departments of the three Secretaries of State
-was in 1796 only 25,488/.; at preSent it was
more than doubled, being 58,1531. In the
Home Office there was a very large in-
crease. In the Foreign Office, among others,
there was one remarkable item, viz. a pension
of 1,0001. to Mr. It. Ward and Mrs. Ward,
to make up to him, as Clerk of the Ordnance,
the salary to which he had been entitled as Un-
,cler Secretary of the Treasury. As Clerk of the
Ordnance, Mr. Ward received a salary of 1,143/.
He received therefore together the sum of 2,1431.
He did not know whether at the time Mr. Ward
quitted the Treasury, the salary of the Under
Secretary was 1,500/. or 20001. If the former,'
Mr. Ward was now overpaid by 643 i. ; if the
latter, by /1431. Here again he had to complain
of the superannuations and retired allowances,
-which ought to be made the subject of separate
Estimates. With respect to the Colonial De-
partment, considering it as he did of the highest
importance to the country, he did not think that
the sum which it cost was too large. Adverting
to the item for the expence of messengers and
couriers, namely, 27,5001. he observed, that he
bad heard a report, which he trusted was not
true, namely, that when any Member of Go-
vernment went abroad, or wanted to come home
from abroad, a dispatch was given to him, which
entitled him to the expence of his journey. As
to the Board of Trade, he thought the money

expended upon it well laid out, and eulogised
the conduct of the Right lion. President of the
Institution.

Mr. AnauTuNoT could see no possible objec-
tion to a separate statement of the expence of
each department. The vote now proposed was
in its present form, because the fee-fund paid the
expences of the departments in question as far as
it went, and it was only for the deficiency that
application was made to Parliament. He had no
objection whatever to present the details of the
expence of the various departments, and in future
they should be presented ; he wished to say a
few words on the salaries of the Secretaries of
the Treasury and the Clerks. By the Finance
Reports of 1797, it appeared, that in the last
year of the American war, the emoluments of the
Secretaries of the Treasury were 5,0001. being
1,0001. more than at present. In 1782, the Se-
cretaries of the Treasury had a fixed salary of
3,000/. with certain allowances. In 1800 the
salary had been fixed at 4,000/. taking away all
other allowance& It was not for him to say
whether or not this was too large a sum, but
he might, perhaps, be permitted to observe,
that hi his particular case the public saved
2,0001. a year by his appointment, as he was
entitled to a pension of that amount, in con-
sequence of his having been formerly employ-
ed in a diplomatic capacity. With respect to Mr.
Harrison,- he begged leave to observe that that
Gentleman hail been originally chosen and ap-
pointed by Mr. Pitt ; that he had been highly
esteemed by Lord Grenville ; that he had also
been highly esteemed and his services rewarded
by Mr. Percival ; and he (Mr. Arbuthnot) could
with confidence appeal to his Noble and to his
Right Hon. Friends near him, if they did not
find Mr. Harrison's services invaluable.—(Hear,
hear !)—He was very sorry to add, that Mr.
Harrison's health was so completely broken down,
that it was not likely the public would long en-
joy the benefit of his talents and experience.
From his (Mr. Arbuthnot's) knowledge of Mr.
Harrison's value, he should deeply lament that
deprivation whenever it should occur ; but
whenever it did unfortunately occur, it was cer-
tainly intended to lessen the salary of the As-
sistant Secretary, and in fact to bring it back to
its original amount. Indeed the whole of the
salaries of the Treasury Department were
under revision. He must observe, that the
business of that department had material-
ly increased since 1796. The only way in
which that could be proved was by comparing
the number of papers registered in the Treasury.
(which however formed but a part of the busi-
ness, as there were numerous papers not regis-
tered.) In 1797, the number of papers regis-
tered was about 4,500; the amount in 1819, ex-
ceeded 20,000 ; and at the present period the
number was above 18,000. This was, perhaps,
in some degree attributable to the greater atten-
tion which that House had of late paid to public
business ; the consequence was that other Depart-
ments who had formerly transacted part of the
business of the Treasury, had declined continuing
that responsibility.
Sir I. COFFIN bore testimony to the great de-
serts of Mr. Harrison, and to his being completely
worn out in the public service.
Mr. HumE said a few words in explanation,
and observed, that the Treasury took upon itself
a great deal of business, which properly belong-
ed to other departments. As an instance of this,
he adduced a case in which the Treasury had
spent many days in an investigation, which was
properly the business of the Stamp Office.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL adverted to the great
difference in the value of money at the present
period, and at the period when the salaries of the
public officers in the Treasury were fixed. Ile
wished to know whether that consideration en-
tered into the plan of revision which the Hon.
Gentleman had alluded to.

Tile CHANCELLOR of the ExcitEoutit replied,
that though the circumstance adverted to by the
Hon. Baronet was certainly of great importance,
yet that any intention of making a change in the
salaries, in consequence of the change in the
value of money, ought to be preceded by a con-
siderable notice. That was not the nature of the
revision to which his Hon. Friend had alluded;
the object of which was to combine as much pub-
lic economy as was compatible with justice to the
individuals immediately concerned.
Lord MILTON expressed his satisfaction at the
attention of the House having been called by the
Hon. Bart. to the expediency of taking the value
of money into consideration in apportioning the
salaries of public officers. We understood the
Noble Lord to recommend that the principle of
such a reference should be further extended ;
and to express his opinion, that before Parliament
met again, the necessity of such an extension
would be rendered sufficiently manifest.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
On the Resolution for granting 25,000/. for Fo-
reign and other Secret Services, _ _

Mr. HUME asked if the large sum of 60,0001. cotl last
year under this head, had been wholly unfunded ?
Mr. ARBUTHNOT replied, that at the time the present
Estimate was formed, 20,0001. were yet in hand ; but that was
three or four months since.

Mr. HUME observed, that to his certain knowledge, a great
deal of money was expended in England in a very objection-
able manner in procuring secret information. If any part of the
present grant went to the department of the Home Secretary,
he would not vote a single shilling of it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
not a shilling of the grant went to the Home Secretary.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

On the Resolution for granting 2,5001. for the Extraordinary
Expences of the Mint and Gold Coinage,
Sir J. NEWPORT asked whether it was in the contempla-
tion of his Majesty's Government to resume the coinage of gui-
neas, or if it was totally abandoned ?
Mr. 'W. POOLE said, that by the King's Proclamation, the
Mint was at present confined to the coinage of Sovereigns and
Half-Sovereigns. He had no hesitation in stating, that it was
not in contemplation to resume the coinage of guineas.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

On proposing a Resolution for granting the sum of 21,0001.
for Printing the Acts of Parliament, Mr. ARBUTHNOT ob-
served, that the expence of this item had become enormous, and
that it was his intention in the next Session (should he retain
his present situation), to move for the appointment of a Com-
mittee to consider of the best means of reducing it.
Mr. HUME was perfectly satisfied that there was no part cf
the public expence more open to reduction than the expence of
printing and stationary • he had no doubt that 50 per cent.
might be saved on both. The expence of printing the 58th
volume of the Journals was 39461. • he had the best authority
for declaring, that at the ordinary charge, any Printer would be
flad to do it for 25601. ; and that if an establishment were
ormed for the express purpose of printing the public documents,
it might be printed at an expence of only 15001. He had some
thoughts of proposing a Committee at once on the subject, can-

vinced as he was that nine clear days Would suffice for a satis-
factory investigation of the subject.
After a few words from Mr. ARBUTHNOT,
Sir J. NEWPORT objected to allowing any monopoly of
supplying the public offices with stationary or other articles. In
Ireland particularly, one individual was allowed the exclusive
privilege of supplying the Government with stationary under
the sanction of what was called a patent. This he maintained
destroyed that fair competition which would enable Govern-
ment to procure those articles for at least half the present pride.
(hear, hear!)

Mr. C. GRANT agreed with the llonourable Baronet, that
a fair competition ought to be allowed in supplying the public
offices with stores. But the case in Ireland to which the Right
Honourable Baronet alluded was one where an individual held
a patent for supplying the Government with stationary, and the
Honourable Baronet knew that when an inquiry was instituted
some years ago on the subject, the opinion of the Law Advisers
of the Crown was, that the patent could not be infringed upon.
After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT,
The Resolution was put and carried, as were the following:—
£2500 for printing 1750 'Copies of the 60th volume of the
Journals in 1321.
£3500 for printing the votes of the House in 1321.
£20,000 for printing the Bills, Reports, and other Papers in
11321.

£2178 to make good the deficiencies of printing the Journals
ih 11;20.

£2OOO for printing the Journals and Reports for the same
period.
£BOOO for the Relief of American Loyalists in 1821.
£6631 6s. 3d. for Retired Allowances and Pensions to Per-
sons late belonging. to Public Offices under the 50th Geo. 111.
£5OOO in Aid of the Refuge for the Destitute for 1821.
£5731 6s. 10d. to make good the deficiency of Printing the
Bills and other Papers in 1820.

£33,667 for Defi.aying the Expences of the Bow-street Esta-
blishment, the Horse Patrol, and the Thames Police Establish-
ment, for 1821._ _ _ _ _

£23,000 for Defraying the Expences of the Penitentiary for
1321.

£15,000 in aid of the Expences of the African Company.
.£2458 for the Expences of Repairing Henry the Seventh's
Chapel.
On the question that there be granted a sum of ,Z 22,444 to
defray the expences of the Civil Establishment at Sierra Leone,
Mr. BERNAL expressed a doubt whether the benefits de-
rived from that Colony were sufficient to balance the expence
incurred by it.
Mr. GOULBURNE observed, that when we first at-
tempted to colonize Sierra Leone, it was found that English
subjects perished there in a short period, but it appeared, on
inquiry, that this proceeded not so much from the badness of
the climate as from the want of proper residences for our officers,
both civil and military ; in fact, the Houses then occupied by
them, admitted the weather at all seasons. It therefore became
necessary to build suitable residences for them, and since that
period the deaths were comparatively few. Parliament had
agreed to grant a sum of ten thousand a year for this purpose,
and there was at present every appearance of health in the
colony. The Hon. Member went on to point out the very great
benefits conferred upon the natives by the establishment of that
colony ; there were at this moment several large villages esta-
blished in the interior of the country, and professing the Christian
Religion. This was of itself gratifying to every English mind,
as it shewed, that independently of the benefits to be derived to
our trade, we had the happiness of making thousands of Afri-
cans both useful and beneficial Members of Society:
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then put and agreed to :
£17,081 ss. for defraying the charge of the Civil Establish-
ment of New South Wales for 1821.

£6,283 for the Civil Establishment of Newfoundland.
£2,520 for the Civil Establishment of Prince Edward's Island
(America).
£6,757 for the Civil Establishment of the Province of New
Brunswick.

£14,267 for the Civil Establishment of the Province of Nova
Scotia. '

£11,107 for the Civil Establishment of Upper Canada.
£6OO for the Civil Establishment of the Island of Demerara.
£3,147 for the Civil Establishment of the Bahama Islands.
£4,901 to meet the outstanding demands for making Im-
provements in Westminster (under the 46th Geo. III.)
£lOO,OOO for making anew street (under the 63d Geo. III.)
from St. Mary-le-bone to Charing-cross.
1:86,760 for conveying and fixing Settlers at the Cape of Good
Hope.
£lO,OOO for defraying the expences of making Roads and
Bridges in the Highlands of Scotland.
£3,650 for making Roads (under the 43 Geo. M.) in the
Isle of Sky.
The HOuse then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received to-morrow (this'day).
The Yorkshire Polls Bill went through a Committee ; Lord
MILTON stating that his object was not to press the Bill this
Session, but he was anxious to have one or two.clauses inserted
in it. The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received on Monday next.