The Sun.
London, England, 1819-02-19 00:00:00

WI the Moral. end reliisiens condlict of the Colo-
nists, but also the mode, in which the education
of children
was conducted. The system of mo-
rality in
that New South Wales was so abandoned,
male and temate !tiled together without the
I:7ceremonya3 enacted b of matrimony. And as to religion, it
-y
the Governor that there should
e only one religion. This injunction had been
particularly complained of by trastioh. Many of Irhit e
fa x-
They had got a Clergyman of their own
fubetio vourite persuasion. When he exercised the
the scensne of mass, it was impossible to describe
, it being one of the most affecting
llnssible.
tiati In recollection of the place of their
'very vity, and the 'ceremonies Of mass there, the
the tears came trickling down their cheeks on
occasion, weeping for joy at the attainment
4 such a blessing. But wat oes Cs• ?
if
of his resolutihond the
o
for t
one religernorion
°,OIY, and this being an infraction of his .law, he
phut up the clergyman in gaol, and sent hint home
Is soon as'convenient. The attendance at the re-
church, front a population of 16,000 or
20,000; seldom exceeded 1700, among sy loon there
here not above 400 tvonmen! In reference to infor•
In4tion front Mr. Marsden, whose virtues he very
I,l"ltch praised, the Government, the Holm. Mem-
i',,e," Said, bad neglected to fulfil their promise of
it'uB, for the adoption of some plan to amend
'e morals of that establishment. Prostitution,
%otos! ,
, -oni had arrived to the height of infamy, WaS a
Ctii
.. 'lief COMphint 'of Mr. Marsden. By a letter
tir4l !lint , dated oth July, 1815, after regretting
I.„at 0° stcP's had yet been taken for the eme-
Clt:46ou of the morals of the colonists, he
ed that he never remembered such house-
,lreal6llgs, robberies, and barbarities of every
ii-'cription ; that the wortlen gained a tui3er-
h existence by open prostitution, and the
lt,len lived by robbery and outrage ; and that
si).v.e_ll, years had now elapse! and 'wilting was
its`je_for the improvement of the esrabliitshmeutiot:
Itr. farmer could not keep any of his prot lc. e, .
,t4l be nut the risk of being robbed by his set'
ti' to offer the plunder as the reward of prosii
iiciri'lwn. Receptacles of vice were open at a
th I's, and the male servants had easy access . to
oohs,, but abandoned women. In looking
"'fel' the list of the year preceding the departure
lisittl'e last shin, the GoVernor had licensed 52
anti • Instead of inquiring into the characterii
tepees, of the persons applying for those -As ''si he had tsranted them indiscriminately.—
si. 'barn' 1 b -44i5a.,., 1011eo woman, who was. wife to Bob
I.st,wtrl: 0 rlluckster Bob, aitotoarnioduisnfetlilloewlol•etlilt
:I,le,„„vis
ithad obtained a licence ;
'tier "us authorised to keep, she lodged cha-
t4s of the most abandoned description pro-
i-cuat ,
us` 'Y. The HonOttra hle Member understoodto
I)spt tile
v . sous
~,tilcavernor had given tickets of license. I -lit,
feet -ao came from England well supplied
fetes‘'l t'el• In short, New South Wales
a di',
British Government,
t file , 'lsrace to the
iratnas'ecuttilation of all crimes and vices.—
cl ~"'"e remote part of the colony, a farmer
atiti sent
to Sydney for three Pers"hseh void,
b't qs,,l accustomed to farming; when, .
44'ettet e'','"r sent him two tailors and a pick-
tl,`l, ti. '4'lle expense of the transport service
Ils'it‘ t'i4hlishment had been so enormous,
Bets
is‘v,"ald be much better to employ the cth-. Vi'erisiiirriellitemiary houses at borne, instealof,
4 ,;e1)4(11:4 a colony of prostitutes and thieves
Isr)'''l s ee'l accused of being an enemy to p.si..-
'''icaf :tinislimsot H was so far from being un-
11,talte ‘ltl, .4. that -.be thought personal punishment
kt 9 !' Ir'fi;rt I
aid a good and neces-
sh- NI ' eat proper, .1 .
Itk to ective of ct.i„,, or vice, But the best
Iriritl ttiinnli,iltnent was the facility of detection,f
lse.e e"usequent prevention of the progress of
tett), Such a system would do more towards
li
t1111115,41,' 4011 the diminution of crime, than a
1,11 01E3 the the statute books. He begged par-
--
cot Ce House for detaining
,them so long.
tilf4il. iniet.,"e(l by moving for a Committee to in-
't‘r ), and to consider the practice or system
ell'"es4LPN'tation of Convicts to New South
s'qns; a"d also to inquire into the state of • that
t 1-rst11a(0:1 43 Government.
Kestieti
.`AsTestieson admitted that the Hon.
tiNis,,l4" was actuated by the best and purest
t,:11 iti 40,n, the occasion ; but viewing the ques-
n Ilstnt touffierent manner, lie would not give his
Csent. the motion. He approved highly of
,41bei. inlientS Which had governed the Hon.
illalLs,,,q soot his Lordship was of opinion, that
est.°"t adopted the best way of obtaining his
41,t lions if sited
(his Lordship) could prove this to
147'1),.e-se, he hoped the Homo Gentleman would
~,.'tik imille a convert to the same opinion. It
‘ti '4
8 ;:tothe
.recollection of the House, that there
.
trace!' is Position already in contemplation, of
44 tice had been given, that would ern-
qi'lle, lie.r)bject of the Hon. Member in a better
tilt Gent '4lLordship recommended the Honour-
t) Lsielitan not to press his motion. If
tltes4,it'4stip made it out that there was no
tiaittt thY f°l' this insulated Committee, he would
It: proe Honourable Member's acquiescence to
tott fiksitioos His Lordship then read an ex-
sittt tbs°llll the concluding paragraph of the Ite-
-olt,ii, lice ou the subject by that bight authority
, '°'"illy, in which Sir Samuel, in the year
111-satipve it as his opinion, that no further steps
t 144 el:kelt taken till the result of the inquiry cotn-
-01, ily Government, of which he very much
lt,°tAlite."• Armed with such an authority, his
Otild 'I) flattered himself that the Hon. Member
I'ti 4titia!knowledge that his motion was useless
010.'Itst) i.eessary. His Noble Friend (Lord Ba-
4,
and adopted every means of gratifying the
loltituti:(l the Hon. Member, by sending out and
nic)t,ss,dg a Committee of Inquiry on time very
at ~,,,er to report on the means of ameliorating
tie ,tooottient of tiie Colony, and for the plans to
1,,,e kottl as most likely to render it useful to
tl"tett ;et' Country This new Inquiry pro-
itt‘i'iltstf Gno",ledrnicneeritita.inly contravene the mem-
The Honourable Member
I:te,e,isegloaatfed of the information which he had
kt.,(IY 446°,1'1 several individuals who had
to r'lshit, e° l'om New South }Vales; but his
ci) 4(itt4(ll I%3:irte(l bi.M, that he had no objection
i. ()terilrile ely information in the possession
t,) stigitt s nt• So that the Honourable Metn-
, • tr,,, ave liithssif
,Irt uslers f, the exposure of applying
let' ri
bY I • )1. what Would be more liberally
1/4list "a Ma's ,
- to Ili% LI stY s servants. With all de-
°ll')urable Member, anti with
. -

t vas? praite to his i.'mmanitv, his irsoidsh;p thought
it 'would he no reproach to his (Mr. Kennet's)
nature or jodgmeurs if he consented td prefer the
superior information of Government to the un-
authenticated assertions of individuals, however
respectable in character. Ills Lordship reminded
the Hon. Member ttritt there had been many in-
stances i which he had been deceived, and by
which he had hazarded his repniation. His Lord-
ship ludicrously regretted the absence of the
Member for Warwickshire., as he worth!, no doubt,
have returned the Hon. Member his warmest thanks
for the happy compliment he paid his consti-
tuents, by comparing their stare of morality to
that of the convicts of Botany Bay !—(llear,
hear ! and loud laughter. the Honourable
Gentleman however carried his opisosition notions
to thwe who composed his Majesty's Army awl
Navy, Ire must beg leave to differ from him. the
Honourable Member had been very happy in his
comparison whet) lie brought in his reference to
the practice of the sailors or soldiers on hoard a
ship. But his Lordship confessed, that a pas-
sage by sea, whether in a large or a small vessel,
in a ship of war or in a packet, with sailors or
soldiers, or even with ladies, was not a desirable
conveyance at any time !—(Laugh.)--It was ne-
cessary, however, on particular occasions, to
adopt such a conveyance, and therefore he, as
well as the Hon. Gentleman, must yield to certain
emergencies. But with regard to the transport
service for convicts, it was impossible to com-
mand at any time that kind of weather which
would please the Honourable Member. Govern-
ment could not wait for that settled weather, those
gentle breezes, or propitious gales, so finely al-
luded to by the Hon. Member. The law had
passed its fiat, and Government were imperatively
called upon to obey the injunctions, by the exer-
cise of the Executive department. But the mo-
tion now submitted to the House, Iris Lordship
considered as forming part of a great whole to
annoy or to embarrass his Majesty's servants. It
reminded him of the objections started by the
Gentlemen on the opposite side on the subject of
the Bank. They were not contented with a
Committee, to comprehend in its consideration
every thing Which Parliament wanted, as con-
nected with the Bank, but they strenuously re-
commended the plan of instituting several separate
Committees, namely, a Restriction Committee,
a Committee for the Resumption of Cash Pay-
ments, and a Committee to consider the Amount
of Paper Issues. If all these Committees had been
instituted, each would have only served to obstruct
the other, and thus the purposes of inquiry would
have been greatly retarded and distracted.—
But the House judged otherwise, and would not
agree to separate Committees, but to one Com-
mittee only, entrusted with powers for a general
survey of the whole affairs connected with the
Bank. In the present case there was evidently a
similarity of system. But his Lordship hoped
that the House would see the futility of multiply-
ing Committees, when the grand object would be
better aud more satisfactorily obtained by one in-
dividual Committee invested with the necessary
powers. In the Committee which would in the
course of a few days be proposed, he would con-
gratulate himself on the able assistance which he
should receive from the two Honourable Mem-
bers (Sir James Mackintosh and. Mr. Bennet.)—
The one would arm them with instances or re-
ferences of policy, and the other enrich the Com-
mittee by his illustrations of the Criminal Code.
The Committee which he intended to propose
would embrace every subject which the two Hon.
Members had premised they therefore would
not refuse their assistance, sanction, and autho-
rity. Bestowing praise on Sir J. Mackintosh for
his laudable intentions, his Lordship said, that
the Committee which he now noticed could not
complete its inquiry without an inquiry also into •
the merits of the laws now in force and acted up-
on in New South Wales. It would not take in
the whole range or scope of the Learned Gentle-
now, but it would answer all the purposes of in-
vestigation, it being intended to confine its in-
quiry to that part of the criminal code now exer-
cised in that colony, and not to comprehend in
its survey the whole of our criminal law. His
Lordship deprecated the fashionable mode used
by Gentleman on the other side of the House.
Gentlemen who take delight in stigmatizing and
exposing any trifling deformities of our laws. It
could never be wise or prudent in any State to
stigmatise its laws. It was causing discon-
tent at home, and exposure abroad. The
most perfect system tnig,ht be found fault with
and condemned ; but it was not politic to en-
gender discontent. Gentlemen, when they
found themselves convinced of the defects al-
luded to, ought to propose an immediate remedy,
instead of detracting from the merits of our whole
constitutional cotle, which had maintained our li-
berties, and made us the envy of the world. The
best mode of diminishing crime was by example ;
anti he believed every Gentleman would concur
with hint in this policy. His Majesty's Govern-
ment did not wish to stifle inquiry. They wished
to encourage it, but their they wished to encou-
rage it upon fair and safe principles. They could
not sanction a dangerous plan, to the extent of
which there could be no end. They meant to
take a middle course ; to arrive at the truth the
speediest way, and not to hazard the whole by any
extravagant speculation. His Majesty's servants
were not inclined to lower a system which had
been admitted ou all sides as the best system of
jurisprudence ever seen or invented by the genius
or wisdom of man ! His Lordship concluded by
moving the previous question.
Mr. WILBERFORCE differed widely from the
Noble Lord who had just sat down. His Noble
Friend (Lord Castlereagh) must allow him to
say, that there were trimly parts of the Report
alluded to on the of of New South Wales
which had been neglected by Government. In
his Noble Friend's reply his Honourable
Friend ire had not offered one word on the im-
provement of morals in New Soot!) %Vales. The
honourable Member sincerely lamented that what
he had heard that night, which was a confirma-
tion only of what he had received out of doors,
the abandoned depravity of the colonists in New
South Wales, had reached to the very utmost
height of profligacy and wickedness ; and yet his
Noble Friend had contented himself with sitting
awn without ads ancing one word on this inns

portant part of the subject. rn the exercise of the
lan's for New South tildes, svinV deny British
subjects the benefit of the British Constitution?
Wh y put British subjects, although Convicts,
under the arbitrary power of any Governor
So tar from the Report of Sir Samuel Romilly,
whose loss no man more sincerely deplored than
he did, makiug an argument against the inquiry
now proposed by his Honourable.Friend (Me.
Bennet), it directly made for it. He la-
mented the wretched state of public morals, as
properly and feelingly drawn by his Hon. Friend,
whose exertions on this occasion merited the
highest encomiums. It could not be denied, that
the tolOnY now under consideration had been
greatly neglected by Government. His .Majesty's
servaats for a long series of years had other and
far more important pursuits. But during the
years of peace which we had enjoyed, it did not
appear that any step had been taken to amend
the morals of the Colony now under the consi-
deration of the House. He bestowed the warmest
encomiums on his Learned Friend, Sir James
Mackintosh, and vindicated him from the allega-
tions of his Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh),
who had indicated as if his Learned Friend meant
the total revision of our Criminal Code, when
in fact he Only meant the revision of that part
which constituted the Criminal Code. or capital
punishment, of New South Wales. He implored
his Noble Friend to agree to the motion of inquiry.
it would he honourable to Government, and satisfy
the country at large; as by an inquiry into the
state of the jails, it was not connected with the
inquiry into the state of the Government, and
mode of administering justice for New South
Wales. We might look into the works of Howard,
or another author who presented tatraunt in vary°
on the subject ; but as to the principle or Object
of intlairy, it was totally unconnected with it.—
Lle therefore again earnestly implored his Noble
Friend to agree to the motion. Although the
convicts had been prisoners.it was not the meaning
of the law that they should be wholly lost to so-
ciety. It was the meaning of the law, by a judicious
punishment, to recover them to society. If the
House were to wait for the inquiry into jails, as
intended by his Noble Friend, it would be a
long time indeed before they could expect any
end to their labours. There were at this time
14,000 or 20,000 individuals of New South %Vales
waiting anxiously to learn the resolution of Parlia-
ment on the improvement of their morals. He
praised Mr. Cooke as an ornament to the moral
world, wino in his researches had performed the
greatest acts of heroism. After many other ob-
servations, he lamented that Government should
indicate a disposition to stifle the inquiry, or
to perform it in a slovenly manner, and con-
cluded by supporting the motion.
Lord CASTLUREAOIi and Mrl WILBERFORCS
mutually explained.
MR. GOULBURN contended that the statement
of his Noble Friend had been mistaken by the
Member who spoke last. He argued that by go-
ing into a Committee now, the inquiry would be
carried on on ex parte evidence. He Hien referred
to a letter in his hand, written by a gentleman in
orders, as respectable as Mr. Marsden himself. It
was very long, and was a satisfactory proof of
the improvement of which the convicts were ca-
pable, and of the impressions entertained on that
point by some of their own body. He lamented
tine difficulty that was generally felt in providing
sufficient religious instruction, not for New Soma
Wales alone, but for every other Colony, and not
of Clergymen of the Established Church alone,
but also of every other sect. He alluded to the
case of the It ish Priest, O'Flynn, Who bad been
sent by the Governor from New South kVales.—
This circumstance was true, but the case was of
such a nature as to afford sufficient justification to
the Governor. O'Flynn had some time since ad-
dressed a letter to Lord Bathurst, requesting
that he might be permitted to proceed to
New South Wales as a Roman Catholic Bi-
shop. On application respecting this Mall to
tine heads of the Catholic Church, it was under-
stood that lie was in every respect improper.—
This individual subsequently went to New South
Vales clandestinely, and as soon as his character
was made known to the Governor he was driven
front the colony. He remarked, generally, upon
the impossibility of establishing in a Colony, so
constituted as was New South Wales, the same
regulations of society as in one wherein moral and
social principles had been longer recognized. The
state of morals in New South Wales was not in-
' deed such as could be desired; but no censure
could be attached to the Government. Ain argument
had been drawn by the Hon. Gentleman in prooi
of the want of morals in the Colony, that not
more than 400 females were in the habit of at-
tending divine service ; but no argument should
be deduced from this circumstance, without tak-
ing into consideration the propoition between
tire number of males and females inn tine Colony.
He held in his hand a paper, sliming the num-
ber of convicts transported within the years
1816 and 1818, from which it appeared, that
the males. were 3,535, and the females
291.—(Hear:1)—With respect to the build-
ings appropriated in the Colony for the
accommodation of female convicts, he had to
state, that two years sioce a factory was in con-
templation, but it being at that time strongly re-
commended to tine Governor, that three churches
were necessary, lie suspended tine factory until the
churches were built ; and now, the churches being
finished, tine factory was in a very forward state
of preparation.—(Hear, hear!)--l-le was very
ready to give every information on the subject
that might be required, but it was impossible for
the House to undertake airy further inquiry until
the result of the Inquiry by the Commission al-
ready appointed was ascertained.
Sir By,sM MARTIN read several extracts from
private letters from convicts, expressive of their
gratitude for the kindness and attention with
which they had been treated daring the voyage ;
also an extract from a letter from Sir John Gore,
Commander in the Medway, stating, that he had
visited the Baring transport ship a few days after
the visit of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Bennet), and that the convicts were comfortably
and well treated. Ile expressed his indignation
that Dr. Halloran had had a cabin to himself,
tithe!) better than was usually assigned to Lieu-
;auaatr, ijt frigatea, The Bon

ever, acknowledged, that in the Surrey convict
ship, fifty persons had died.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH felt called upon to Sa'
something on this question. His Hon. Friend hart
not said, as was implied by the Hon. Member op-
posite, that the Noble Lord wished to stifle in-
(piny, for such an expressjon would he unpar Ha-
menrary ; but he said, the inquiry about to be in-
stituted would have no effect, The two last
speakers had forgotten the question. One of
them, indeed, hall refuted the whole of what had
railer) from the Noble Lord who sat next to him,
lie was of opinion with his Hon. Friend, that the
inquiry proposed by the Noble Lord would pro..
duce no result. The question before the House
was not whether inquiry was necessary, but in
what manner it was to be carried on. 'Those
who were acquainted with the most deplorable
part of our modern history were aware that nr:any►
Irish Catholics had been sent out to New South
Wales ; and was it now fair for Government to
take credit for consolting with the Catholic Hie-
rarchy how they should supply them with reli-
gious instruction ? a point on which one of the
last speakers had addressed the House in such a►t
exultit►g tone. it was a disgrace to the successive
Administrations in this Country that this had not
been done before. He adverted to the neglect of
the system which had been adopted by our ances-
tors, that of giving to our Colonies something
like the British Constitution, and concluded with
supporting the motion.
Mr. CANNING did not think, much as lie knew
his Honourable Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) con-
curred with him in admiting the British Consti-
tution, that lie would become -the ally of the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in wishing
to bestow it on colonies of every description of
existence. For it was not many years since
they (Mr. C. and Mr. W.) had fought side by
side to exempt Trinidad from the blessings of the
British Constitution, and keep it under the con-
troul of the Crown.—(Laughter.)—The Learned
Gentleman had said that there was not a rock in
the West Indies on which the British Constitu-
(ion had not sprung up with the existence of a
British colony. But his observation ought to have
applied to acquired colonies, and not to a nest of
convicts. When our forefathers had sent convicts
to a burning clime, with a degree of care, which,
when compared with that now displayed towards
them, was like a cipher to thousands, would he
say, " commend me to the wisdom of our an-
cestors, for they exported nothing but specimens
of the British Constitution ?"—(Laughter.)—The
Learned Gentleman was, he believed, the only
philosopher who, standing on the pier at Sheer-
ness, and contemplating the departure of a cargo of
redeemed couriers, he meant redeemed from a se-
verer punishment, would tell a friend, " what do
you think we are exporting, not the relicts of
crime, but materials to build the British Constitu-
tion t''—(Laughter.)—He did not think, how-
ever, that the philosophy of the Learned Gentle-
man would win many partisans to his cause ; or
that many would wish to establish in Botany ilay,
Houses of Lords and Commons, and a hierarchy
of universal toleration.--(Laughter.)—He then
contended that the Opinions expressed by his
Noble and Hon. Friends (Lord Castlereagh and
Mr. Gotilburn) were not contradictory. They
both agreed on the necessity of an inquiry into
the state of convict ships, and the objection of
his Uon. Friend only applied
.to that part whirl►
formed a charge against Government, for which
no case whatever was made. hit were presented
as a matter of accusation, he (Mr. C.) should
declare it to be false,eand should throw it in
the teeth of the accusers. If it were brought
as a subject of an inquiry, he should admit it to
form a part of the matters to be investigated. The
Learned Gentleman wished the Honourable Mover
to withdraw the part that related to convict ships,
and to let tine rest fall into the inquiry of his Noble
Friend. But in doing so he would give argument,
for the ships formed the connecting links between
the two questions. He then alluded to what had
been said respecting the abolition of the punish-
ment of death. While Hotfoot-able Members
were excitiog all the sympathies of the House
for those who had offended against the laws, he
hoped they would not forget, that whilst they
sat to exercise judgment in mercy, they were
also the guardians of the life and property of
others, and that these were interests in society
for which they ought to have some regard. To,
entertain the subject in the way in which tine
Hon. Gentleman, and the petitions presented to
the House, brought it forward, would excite an
expectation that the punishment of death could
be done away with without any other substitute
in its stead, and might endanger the peace of so-
ciety to such an extent, that no device of that
Honourable Gentleman's could restore it again.
He was the more afraid to entertain questions
of this kind when be saw that a person en•
lowed with abilities and dexterity in debate
as his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) had
this night displayed, had suffered himself to be
betrayed into the proposition, " that we were
daily witnessing executions, for crimes of which
we were ourselves guilty, by not having educated
the people." If secondary punishments were once
made effectual, then there could be but one voice
for diminishing those of a capital nature. But he
could not agree to co►nmence at the otther end, and
to say that we had a Criminal Code, when we bad
none; for our laws had not been produced prospec-
tively. They had not been written on► 12 tables.
Neither, like the Chinese legislation, had they an-
ticipated every possible shade of offence, and affixed
every additional bamboo of punishment.—(Laugh.
ter.)—They had risen in the same succession as
offences, and we should not now begin by
trampling upon the whole system, and thus pulli►►g
down the best safeguard we had for life, proper-
ty, and traoquillity. Convinced that sufficient
in-
(pity could be attained in the Committee pro-
posed by the Noble Lord, because it would be
pit sited in the most adVMHIIgeOIIS mariner, he
should follow his example, and vote for the pre.
vious question, in order to leave the question opert
to investigation.
Sir J. MACINTOSH arid Mr. CANNING mutually ex-
plained.

Mr. TIERNEY had been accused of a disrosit'on to tura
serious things into jests, nit if be bale. such a diSpUSitio.l,
NIA :111 the powei Of the night Honourable Gentleman, he
did not think he should have been able to make a cumicek
speech on a subject of so much Serious importa:ice as that
ttttt h•Ille. A •