The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAI EVENING, JULY 22,_1845.

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take tl.e trouble to examine the minutes of the reports on New part of the Crown lands had authorised such steps to be taken
South Wales of that period, they would find abundant evi- !as would validate the purchase of the lands. He would not
dente of the results of the change of policy referred to by the i fatigue the House by reading letters which showed that th
lion. and Learned Gentleman. The Noble Lord, i:e Member i New Zealand Company hail agreed to make their purchases of
for Suuderland, had once referred with considerab force to a I lands for a considerable sum—not 50..4.—but for a considerable
speech of Sir George Gipps, who was considered,l.y a majority j stun ; and if this deposit was to be made, how was this claim to
of the Committee, a person whose opinion on this übject might be satisfied ? and he thought that it was quite contrary to the
be desirable. He was applied to by Capt. F. roy, and he J principle of this agreement that the New Zealand Coin-
(Mr Hope) would read the evidence of Sir George I pony should take this land first under their original
lipns. ( The Hon. Gentleman then read the extract.) It right, and secondly on the principle of national law.
was stated that this (the sovereignty) was one of the causes Now, what did the Noble Lord the Member for London say to
that would unite the natives against the Government. It was this subject? Why, he said that he would guarantee any grant
certain that it now created great discontent, and if they adopted to which a superior title was not shown. It was, therefore,
a different line of policy—a policy inconsistent with that pre- rather too much to say that the New Zealand Company's views
viously pursued—it would only bring ruin upon their interests had not been carried out to the extent which they themselves
in that country. had laid down. It had been suggested that the Noble Lord had
Mr. ROEBUCK said that as he had had some share in not kept faith with the Company, because he had not fulfilled
drawing up the report of the Committee on this subject, he . good faith in the award of the 18th May. Now, what was the
should wish, and he trusted to be pardoned if he addressed a I fact ? The Noble Lord had determined that the title to these
few words to the House. It seemed to him, that when they I lands should be shown by the possession of the natives. A
considered the mode in which that unfortunate country was Commissioner had accordingly been appointed to investigate
connected with this, a mode of connexion equally injurious to the titles of the natives to the several districts, for which he
New Zealand and to Great Britain, the evils which oppressed was responsible. When, therefore, the Commissioner had in-
it would be found to have hail their origin in the conduct pur- vestigated this award, there was to be a subsequent agreement,
sued by the Government in all time to that country. When on which the title of the New Zealand Company was to be
Captain Cooke was sent out to make discoveriea, he took based. He would venture on no further explanation, because
possession of this island in the name and•on the part of Great he thought that it was unnecessary. He had shown the nature
Britain. He was an authorised person ; because it might be of the treaty of Wait angai, he had shown the nature of the de-
laid down as an important doctrine, that no one, except a per- gree of civilisation to which the natives had advanced, and he
son specially instructed by Great Britain, could usurp such a had shown that it was a treaty into which the agent of the New
right in the name of that country. He thought it necessary Zealand Company had solemnly entered, which had been gua-
to put this on the broad principle before proceeding with his ranteed by the Government, and for which the previous Go-
case. Well, Captain Cooke went and discovered New Zea- vernment was responsible.
land, and Great Britain then acquired what might be termed Mr. L ABOUC HERE denied that this was a question be-
an imperfect right, which, however, by subsequent acts might tween the Government and the New Zealand Company. It
have been perfected. Afterwards they lost possession of it, be- was the duty of this House to inquire what was the policy of the
cause no one, retaining authority from this country, was left in Government with which, as Secretary of the colonies, he was
the island. It was true that certain runaways from New South connected. He did remember the anxious desire of Lord Nor-
Wales went and resided there from time to time. It manby—an anxiety in which he had most deeply participated—
was true that mariners called there, who attended the whale that the inferior race should not be crushed by the superior
fisheries, and certain missionaries went there for the purpose of rase, and he was prepared to say that nothing had been more
labouring in the vineyard, and there they also fixed their tern- opposed to the policy of the Government of which Lnrd Nor-
porary residence. None of these acquired a foot of ground, and manhy was a member, than to violate the terms of the treaty
New Zealand still remained unpossessed. And why? Because of Waitangai. He would contend that it was owing to the
the right of Great Britain to the country had not been per- documents which the Government had put upon the table that
fected. But Great Britain, not only not contented with this had caused all the confusion and misfortunes of New Zealand.
virtual cession of the island, publicly declared it to be without He found by the dispatches of Lord Stanley that the instructions
her territories. Thus it was clear that if any foreign nation of Lord Stanley were contrary to the instructions of that
had stepped in, as they had not perfected their right of dis- House. If it was the wish of the House to conciliate in that
covery, Great Britain would have been obliged to succumb, country they would have adopted a very different course of
because she had made no declaration of her right. But she might policy. He did think the same course of justice and fairness
say "we have recognised them as the independent people of an should he adopted towards the people of New Zealand as had
independent country, aod we shall see that their rights are not been exisi ing, between this country and France, or in America.
invaded." They were acknowledged by Great Britain, and He did not mean that nice points upon any sub-
now he came to the New Zealand Company's connexion with ject should be allowed to form difficulties in
the country, and before he had done,
_he thought he would put the way of le tislating for a half savage people.
the case in such a position that the Hon. Gentleman would be (Hear, hear.) But he did think that substantial justice should
puzzled to answer. The New Zealand Company said "We be done as between the natives and the settlers, and this could
went out to a country which you have acknowledged to be an be very easily done without injury to the prosperity of this coun-
independent and sovereign one, and we bought land of the try, or without the necessity of sending out a larger body of
sovereigns of that country, paying a fair price for it, and, there- armed men. He did think it would be absurd to regard the
fore, we consider we have a perfect title to the land, but when aborigines of New Zealand as if they were the inha-
you come afterwards and take possession of it, you say you bitants of a state as civilized as that of England ; but the
have had possession of the country, but we say we think this our mode by which the Government proposed to fine those
private property, bought according to the very forms on which people was an absurd mistake. ( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
you place so much weight—those forms which Lord Stanley so The levy of a tax was proposed, but the absurdity of such a
often refers to. We bought the land and we paid for it, and measure must be apparent to any person who considered the
you have no right to look into the contract. We claim the present state of the aborigines of that country.—(Hear, hear.)
land and deny your right to publish any proclamation that can He could not detain the House further on the present occa-
be regarded over Europe as challenging our right to our pur- sion. He would give his vote in favour of his Hon. Friend
chases in a free country." He should like to see the question near him, for he did think, that if the House was so taken up
brought into a court of law—say the Queen's Bench, by party conflicts, he feared it would go far to shake the confi-
and its decision upon it.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") deuce of the public in that House.
But what did Great Britain do under the government of the Sir R. INGLIS contended that the labour of the missionaries
Noble Lord the Member for London ? What were the next in New Zealand had produced great results, and he was sorry to
stages in this farce ? and a curious farce it was. The Govern- hear the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard permit him-
ment enlarged the commission of the Captain-General of New self to speak slightingly of those missionaries. Believing that
South Wales. They declared that his jurisdiction should ex- the question raised by the New Zealand Company was raised
tend to all territories in New Zealand, and then they further to support the interest of the Company as such, and for no
granted a commission to Captain Hobson to go out as a sort of other object, he should give his support to her Majesty's
deputy-captain-general. They gave him consular power, and Government.
not only that, but they furnished him with ambassadorial Mr. AGLIONBY regretted being obliged to obtrude him-
powers to treat with the native chiefs for their submission to self upon the House upon this subject, because his feelings were
the power of Great Britain. But the farce went on. Cap- very strong upon the matter. He thought that a Committee
tam Hobson went out, and then began that other extraordt- would be a much better tribunal for the investigation
nary two-act farce commencing with the treaty of Waitangi. of the subjects which Lad been brought under the considera-
Atter this, they had Captain Hobson employing his various tion of the House by the Attorney-General, than that House
arts to induce the chiefs to cede the sovereignty of the country. was. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had dealt in gross
Let them but think of the document obtained by Captain exaggeration. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said,
Wakefield from the chiefs around Wellington, and to that the purchases of land by the New Zealand Company had
urge with a grave and serious aspect such an instrument as been unfairly
.made. This was entirely without proof. The
ceding the sovereignty of a country. They (the Government) Companyhad paid every farthing which hadbeen awarded by the
said the purchase of the land was a fraud and they would have Commissioner of claims. In one case, after the title to the
nothing to do with it, but he maintained that the selling of the land had been conveyed, the Company paid 7,900/. for what was
land was a fraud.—( Hear.) It was a fraud on the civilized called good-will. The Company had desired peace, and had
world.—(Cheers.) They said that the purchase was dis- made every concession to the Government short of a concession
honourable, but where was the sense of honour in their Iran- of their honour. They had never concealed anything from the
sactions with the New Zealand Company ? But now he Government. He believed that no one would dare to say in
would remark upon the part taken by the missionaries apart pe. the presence of the Noble Lord the Member for London, that
culiarly marked, as they had used every means, by hands and the New Zealand Company had misled him. They had done no
wit, to get these very documents signed. He repeated that such thing. Everything was open to him, and the Noble Lord
their conduct was peculiarly marked in their intercourse with knew this. The Noble Lord, when he was in office, might
the aborigines. But how did they get there ? Why in this have had every document connected with the Company merely
way. There was at the time a great organization abroad for for the asking for them. The safety of the colony had been
emancipating the negroes, and there was a mass of and should be the first object of the Company. They coupled
organization and other sentimental bubbles afloat, the condition with the monopoly. If the House wished for in-
and so the missionaries got to New Zealand. formation nothing would be refused. With regard to the Hon.
He should be shut up to the end of the session in Committee, Member fir Oxford, he would assert that no aggravation
and that would be the end of it. He had had sufficient ex- was conceded. But until he had evidence to the contrary he
perience of this. In the Aborigines Committee, what oc- should believe that the motives and actions to carry on
curred? When the report was made, Lord Normanby said, their designs were rendered abortive by the proceedings of the
we cannot stand against this. In the result, General Hobson Church Missionary Society ; and the opposition of that Gen-
was sent out. To obviate the claims of France our prior tlernan had been a prevailing opposition. The Hon. Gentle-
' claims to discovery was set up. This was the origin of the man then read a memorial from that society.
New Zealand Hobby—( Hear, hear)—from which no one had Sir R. INGLIS asked whether this was according to the
gained but the missionaries.—( Hear, and a laugh.) They had custom of the Church Missionary Society. This remark would
written an account of the Christian doctrine, and had translated justify any imputation on their character?
it into the New Zealand language ; which, however did not Mr. AGLIONBY would say that in the absence of the reli-
contain a sufficient number of words to express the ideas, and gious inducements of the popular safety there was something
these were written in a jargon which the New Zealanders could to consider beside the religious prejudices of the people. By
not understand, but he could because he knew English.— the decision of the Government they had settled 200,000 acres
( Hear, and laughter.) But simple as the missionaries were, of land on these persons, and between the several parties it had
they took care of themselves.—( Hear, and laughter.) One come to this whether they would or could not colonize New
gentleman of this body acknowledged that he had obtained Zealand. But he was obliged to yield in order to rebut the
a bit of land—which turned out to he 90,000 acres, Another feelings of those whose judgment he very highly respected.
had 100,000 acres.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The He had listened to the observations of the Hon. and Learned
missionaries were the real cause of all the misgovernment. Member of the Board of Trade, and was quite conscious that the
rho great evil at the root of all colonial government was, that adhesion of the India Company would be quite sufficient, but
when a Ministry came into power, they said, we must have a in the event of aggression should be granted. On the 21st
Colonial Secretary, and they immediately placed in office some December last it was agreed that the advantages should be
man of Parliamentary iniuence, with gut regard to his know- divided, and assured to those who felt a very conscious sup-
le Ige or capacity. But there was a power behind, and, in this position that a division would settle the question.
case, the missionaries were that power.—( Hear, hear.) Such Mr. HOPE said that be had supplied a full report of the
influence was sometimes overcome by a man of great strength proceedings of the Government, and he thought that when he
of mind, great sagacity, great patience. But Lord Stanley was had supplied the whole document, extracts vt ere unnecessary.
not such a person.—( Hear, hear.) The missionaries had been The motion for the adjournment of the debate was then put
the cause of the differences between this country and France in and agreed to.
Otaheite. —( Hear, hear.) They went abroad under the pretence FEES (CRIMINAL COURTS) BILL.
of spreading the religion of peace, and they spread only war anti Mr. B. ESCOTT moved the second reading of this Bill.
dissension. He did not blame this Government for all that had Sir. CRIPPS seconded the motion.
occurred. Preceding Governments, from the 52d of Geo. 111. The A TT, iRNEY-GENRAL opposed it.
down to Lord Normanby were equally to blame.—( Hear, Mr. HUME supported it.
hear.) He thought that the Government should take Mr. B. ESCOTT explained, and
the territory into their own. hands, and give the colonists Sir J. GRAHAM expostulated.
a charter for self-government, such as was possessed Mr. DARBY remonstrated with the promoters of the Bill,
by the colonists of Rhode Island. When the first which was eventually postponed.
settlers of the New Zealand Company were about to leave the TURNPIKES ROAD (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Thames, they had agreed upon a form of Government amongst On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill,
themselves which they undertook to obey. In this they Mr. PRINGLE wished to reserve the second reading, as a
followed the example of those pilgrim settlers who adopted a great number of Scottish Members were out of town.
form of government which was now reverenced throughout Mr. P. M. STEWART trusted that the Hon. Member, as
America as much as Magna Charta was in England. He said thus he did not object to the Bill, would allow it to be read a second
much in justice to the New Zealand Company, although he did time, and take the discussion in Committee.
not approve of all their proceedings, and especially of their The Unions (Ireland) Bill was read a second time.
taking out emigrants without providing for their settlement.— The Jurors' Book ( Ireland) Bill was read a third time.
( Hear, hear.) A land tax had been spoken of. But upon The report on the Valuation (Ire and) Bill was brought up,
whom was the tax to be levied? Who owned the land ? and ordered to be committed.
( Hear, hear.) It could not be alleged that individuals amongst The report of the Committee of Supply was received.
the tribes owned it, nor that the tribes themselves were the SLAVE TRADE (BRAZIL) BILL.
owners. Each tribe occupied, from time to time, certain On the order of the day for going into Committee en
spots, which they cultivated as long as they would bear culti- this Bill,
vation, when they moved off to another spot more fertile. But Mr. MILNER GIBSON said that as this was a very im-
they did not po'sess the land as the savages of , portant measure, he trusted before the House would proceed
North America formerly possessed theirs ; for the latter 1 further in it, that any correspondence yet unproduced would be
used the land as hunting grounds, and lived upon it. laid before the House, and he should therefore move that the
But it was absurd to say that the New Zealanders possessed House do not resolve itself into Committee on the Bill this
the land from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain, as the day, in order to give Government an opportunity of laying any
people of this island possessed Britain, or the Hon. Gentleman ! other correspondence relative to the question before the House.
opposite possessed his paternal estates. He thought the course j Sir R. PEEL hoped that the Hon. Member would allow
which the Government ought to pursue was to take the land j the Bill to go into Committee, and if any papers connected
on the part of the Crown—to give to the natives a liberal pro- ' with the slave trade, not already laid on the table, could be
tection, and such reserves of land as would be amply adequate found, they would be produced before the third reading.
to their comfortable subsistence amonst the civilized settlers. j Mr. HAWES hoped that if any other correspondence ex-
This was the only thing which could be done to soften that ! isted, it would be laid on the table, and he thought those Hot,.
fate, to which the New Zealanders, like all savage races coming Members belonging to the mercantile community ought to en-
in contact with civilised men were approaching, that of certain tertain similar views.
extinction. But if the proposed land tax were imposed Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had stated he would he ready
the result would be. that the land would become that of the to acquiesce in the postponement of the third reading of the
Crown by forfeiture within twelve months.—( Hear.) That Bill in order to produce any correspondence that had taken place
was a fiction which he would not say was undignified—the between the Government of the Brazils and her Majesty's
l were
term was insufficient to express its character. It was rather Government.
worthy of that term to which the Noble Lord himself ( Lord Mr. HUTT thought that the correspondence was of very
Stanley) had given authority—that of "thimble rig."—(Hear great importance, and he trusted that the
dpma
papers
t y w o u
ra
l Court b e d
e
w
and laughter.) The lion. and Learned Gentleman, who was ' before the House, as it was really a matter of moment that the
very imperfectly heard throughout, concluded by entreating the
c,Housept. i
should, liEc be informed
said h
ormed on
athesutbbjeecAt.
Government to adopt the policy he had recommended.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it was not his made paramount it would be the most effectual means of put-
intention to enter now into a lengthened discussion of this ques. tang down the slave trade.
tion, which had been already, in the course of this session, suffi. Mr. HUME objected to the matter going further visthout
ciently considered by the House. Now he was quite prepared ! additional information being furnished.
to admit with the Member for Liskeard, that there were many I Sir R. PEEL said the Government could not bring forward
of the persons who undertook the scheme with the most disin- I the Bill at an earlier period of the session, from the press of ether
terested motives, and yet it appeared from the book on the business.
table, that there were persons who realised ti per cent. Colonel SIBTHORP had been eighteen years in the House,
on their outlay. He mentioned this because there was arid never saw the Hon. Member for Salford asleep at his post
a great deal in the conduct of this Company which was deemed before. They were now called upon, at half-past one, to force
culpable by the Government. In 1839, when under the conduct ; measures 'of the greatest importance through a thinly attended
of Captain Wakefield, the New Zealand Company had IHouse. Why did not the on. Member move the adjourn-
made purchases unwise in their character of the natives. The ment ?
Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had distinctly chal- I Mr. MILNER GIBSON thought he should not be discharg-
lenged hm, on the ground that the New Zealand Company had ; ing his duty if he allowed the Bill to proceed without the pro-
not been guaranteed by the Government. In 1839 the New I duction of the correspondence he had called for. He would
Zealand Company had applied to the Government for a recog- therefore move the appointment of the Committee on Thursday
tuition of their authority. On this application the Government I next.
had expressly stated that they would not recognise their pro- The motion having been seconded,
ceedings, yet in spite of these proceedings the New Zealand Sir R. PEEL expressed his willingness to postpone going
Company had made purchases of the iiatioe.3 of lant's to into Committee on the Bill till T hursOay next.
which they were atoms entitled, and on the 2,1 I Mr. 31. GIBSON called for the production of Mr. Ellice's
of Slay the New Zealand Company had issued a I correspondence relative to the right of search.
prospectus stating that they were in possession of cer. Sir R. PEEL said, as these negotiations had been unsuc•
tain lands, to which they had not the slightest cessful, he thought it would be inconsistent in him to pro-
title. They had applied to the Government for a' duce it.
recognition of this title, but Lord Normanby, under the ad- Mr. HUME said the country was anxious to know upon
vice of Capt. Hobson, had replied, that the Government could what grounds the trade between Brazil and this country had
not do otherwise than acknowledge that the treaty of Waitangar I been suspended, and he therefore hoped the correspondence
was a valid treaty. Yet in spite of all this the New Zealand j would be laid on the table of the House.
Company had instructed their agent, Capt. Wakefield, to make I Sir R. PEEL said he had no objection to the production of
purchases of lands of the natives, who were perfectly entitled to all papers which would not be injurious to the public service.
the sovereignty of their own estates. They had made these ! The Stamp Duties Bill then passed through Committee, and
purchases at a time when the sovereignty of these -lands was the report was brought up.
Cully recognised by the government of this Company. Lord JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.
Normanby had expressly recognised the sovereignty over the On the reading of the order of the day for the third reading
wastes of New Zealand, and it was quite incompetent for the of this Bill,
agents of the New Zealand Company to enter into any arrange- Sir R. INGLIS objected to the passing of the Bill at this
ments which disregarded the rights of the natives. This treaty late hour, being now two o'clock, and he would divide the
was made in 1840, with the full cognizance of the New Zealand House.—( Hear, hear.)
Company, and he used the expression advisedly ;he yet asserted Colonel SIBTHORP had for many years looked upon the
thatea the
bound to observe the terms of that Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government as a sins
y. In countryh
e Was fully
ftulyolfthat treaty the Noble Lord the Mem- sere Christian and Protestant. But he had been compelled not
sin-
treaty. rtthe
I to regard him any longer in that light—( A laugh)—and he
had further stated that this treaty was one shouldnever '
her for London entirely agr6ed, and had expressed his approval
of the treaty, and
ntloedt members of the Hon. Gentleman might bring in, if it were even to destroy
ts had been —( Laughter, ) He would support his Hon. Friend the Mem-
common community who were so muc h o protection the Protestant Church, and to bring in infidelity in its place.
which ought to be observed, thati tdh.erehTwheeerheitri
as the inhabitants of New Zealand Lau
recognised by the Government. On the 18t ovem November the ber for Oxford, who was really a Christian and a Protestant
New Zealand Company's agent had entered into on arrange- —(Laughter)—in recording his vote against the Bill.--( Hear,
ment with the natives, in the full knowledge of the teems of hear, and laughter.)
the treaty of Waitangai. In that treaty it is expressly stipu- The House then divided, when the numbers were—
ntitled to any lands For the third reading
lend that the Company should not bat e 44
Yet, any dis- Against it
which were not granted by the Crown. 0 when 1
Majority —33
pute arose, they endeavoured to establish it as a sort of eonni-
by The Bill was accordingly
tion, that the lands they sought to obtain were to be allowed
B read a third time and passed.
The Banded C
the express consent of the natives. That this was the case was
TAXING
Morns was read a third time and passed.
expressly apparent from the consent of the Noble Lord himself, A TERS COURT OF CHANCERY
and a letter of Mr. Vernon Smith, which expressly stated the (IRELAND) BILL.
terms of the agreement to the Company. To this the chairman • Sir ROBERT FERGUSON hoped that this Bill would
of the New Zealand Company replied, fully stating that the not be pressed on at this late period of the session, con-
Company took the land under the sup position that the Crown sidering the magnitude and importance of the measure.
had to give its approbation to the purchase. The Commissiooer The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for Ireland hoped the Hon.
Claims ascertain on what grounds the Company Baronet
of Land Clas had to" would not oppose the Bill, as a taxing officer for that
had to make their claims to the lands entered upon by the arc Court in Ireland was very much waited.
rangement of Col. Wakefield. By an inspection of the agree- Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said he had to complain of
ment with the natives it was evident that no agreement had the very late period of the sessiop at vfhiph this measure was
been catered into by the Company. But I Commission out. introduced,

PAL. M. J. O'CONNELL sail he should also protet .against
Bills of this sort being introdtred at so late a period of the
session, and, therefore, he world support his lion. Friend in
his opposition to the Bill.
The question was then put, ;nd the House went into Com-
mittee rut the Bill ; a reselutim was then agreed to for a grant
of 1.00!-!1. e year from the Coo,olidated Fund. Report to-
morrow (this day ).
The Compensations Bill wal read a second time.
The Drainage of Estates Bil was read a second time.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two o'clmk.

should have a daeoration.' He felt that he had a right to ,ea.
press his opinion with resoect to the petition, and would
conclude by moving that it should lie on the table.
DERRY AND COLEB.AINE RAILWAY.

*favour
The Earl of WICKLOW prozented six petitions in
of the Derry and Colertine Railway Bill.

HUSH COLLEGES BILL;

Lord CRENIORNE presented a petition, sii`inea by 9,000 of
the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Cork, af7.;inst the Irish Col-.
leges Bill. He would at the same time ".";ice the opportunity of
stating to their Lordships that his opinion was entirely in
avour of that measure. _

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 21.
ROYAL ASSENT.

Lord ELDON presented a petition from the University of
Oxford against the Colleges (Ireland Bill).
Lord STANLI,.',Y presented four petitions, one from 13 pro-
fessors of the Belfast Academical Institution ; one from the
managers of the same institution, signed by the secretary on
their behalf; one from the Literary and. Scientific Institution,
and another from the inhabitants of the some city, generally.
Lord STANLEY, in rising to mauve the second reading of
the Bill for the establishment of provincial colleges in Ireland,
said, that he need net remind their Lordships that her Ma-
jesty, on delivering her speech at the opening of Parliament
this session, recommended that the promotion and encourage-
ment of education in Ireland should form a prominent feature
of their consideration. In accordance with that gracious re-
quest he now had to lay before the House a Bill founded on
principles of liberality towards Ireland, and with prospects of
leading to infinite benefits. It was a measure which, brought
forward with the best intentions of her Majesty's Government,
had been received in the Lower House with support, if not
cordiality, and if not passed with unanimity was at least agreed
to by a great majority. In the course that had been pursued
by Governments for the last half century in granting a liberal
education to the country one great omission had been made.
While the means of instruction were liberally accorded to the
highest and the very lowest ranks, that class which re-
quired it chiefly had been overlooked—he alluded
to the middle class. In using that term " middle class," he
meant that class just below the highest, and just above the
lowest class. But while the opportunities for education had
been but tardily and narrowly extended to the middling
classes of the entire kingdom, if there were one part where
such education was snore necessary than in another, it was in
Ireland. There the discordant elements of conflicting creeds
national prejudices, and political acerbities, rendered a system
of united education more especially necessary, and yet, with
the exception of the Belfast Institution, there was no esta-
blishment whatever but Trinity College, Dublin, where mem-
bers of both religions, Catholic and Protestant, could be edu-
cated together. And although in Trinity College there were
at present, he was happy to say, more than one hundred
Roman Catholics receiving education on the kindliest
terms with their fellow students of the antagonistic
creed, yet the establishment was an exclusive—he would not
use the term " sectarian" institution. It was for the pur-
pose of supplying this deficiency, of remedying the evil thus
ikely to increase, that the present measure had been introduced.
And he was sorry to observe that a petition had been just pre-
ented by a Noble Lord near him (Lord Eldon) from several
members of the University of Oxford, deprecatory of the pro-
-) osed measure, and urging that the old system, as originally
a dopted in the English Universities, should be applied to all
cademical institutions, and never departed from.—( Hear,
sear_) such a proposition might be very suitable to a
ountry where no religious institutions existed, but was
wholly incompatible with a policy for conciliating animr,sities
and cementing religious differences. He was aware that a sys-
tem involving the principle of endowing the Roman Catholic
Church (for he was ready fully and frankly to declare his adop-
tion of that alternative) he was aware that such a system met
the disapprobation of many whose opinions and even prejudices
should be respected. He (Lord Stanley) was willing to admit
that science should be the handmaid of religion, and while he
deprecated the extension of that apothegm to every instance,
such as of followers of distinctive religionsassembled for instruc-
tion in one institution, he was not favourable tqthe proposition
of some, that the doors of an exclusive establishment should be
thrown open alike for all persuasions. Thus, it had been suggested
as a remedy for the present deficiency in educational opportuni-
ties in Ireland, that Trinity College, Dublin, should be free
to all denominations, even to the admission to its corporate
rights. And here he wished to do an act of justice to an
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, from whose political
principles he almost invariably dissented. In the year 1895,
Mr. O'Connell stated, in evidence before a Committee of
that House, that he deprecated, as an act of gross injustice, the
diversion of the funds .of Trinity College, Dublin, to the
Roman Catholics ? The effect of such a system would be, not
only acerbity between the three novel and the one existing
college, but a spirit of individuality, if he might so expresshim-
self, would spring up and induce the Presbyterians to fre-
quent the Presbyterian College, the Protestant the Pro-
testant, and the Roman Catholic the Roman Catho-
lic, for the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion,
or other extraneous requirements. In that opinion he
(Lord Stanley) cordially concurred, but, on the rejection of
such a proposition, how could they devise a satisfactory substi-
tute? Would they establish in Dublin three colleges,
one for Presbyterians, one for the Church of England, or
Episcopalians, and another for the Roman Catholics ?
At the period when the Irish Education scheme was first
mooted, in 1821, there was a proviso that all persons should be
compelled to attend the services of their respective churches
every Sunday. That clause was, however, subsequently struck
out, because the Members of te Church of England and of
the Presbyterian denomination said it would be a sin to recom-
mend persons of the Roman Catholic persuasion to attend their
church. Would that tend to do away with the charge of pro-
selytism and of unsettling the minds of the young men in their
colleges ? Would it be likely to tend to reconcile the good feel-
ings of persons of different religious persuasions, by introduc-
ing a system which would have a tendency to proselytism ? He
would never consent that such a system should be introduced.
He wished to speak with all respect of the memorial presented
by a Noble Lord from the Roman Catholic prelates of Ireland.
He agreed with the Noble Lord that the House was bound to
look to the weight of argument contained in the objections of
the memorial. He did not think that the House was bound to
yield to them. Was the faith of the Roman Catholic student
in danger when he should b 3 called upon to attend a lecture on
anatomy ? Some more stringent objection was necessary. It
seemed perfectly reasonable to him that the 'State should pos-
sess the power of appointing the president and vice-president of
these colleges, and should also have the power of appointing
the professors. Nor did he believe that there would be the
smallest danger that the Crown would abstain from ap-
pointing persons to hold the office of professors who,
whatever creed they might belong to, if competent
to fulfil their duties, would be passed over on account
of their religious persuasion. He should regret to see the ap-
pointment of professors other than those whom the Crown
should provide. He thought, also, that the Crown should
possess the power of discharging them from their situations.
He did not think it would be wise to establish any religious
distinctions within the walls, or to insist on the
establishment of any theological institutions. He considered,
however, that it was the bounden duty of the State to afford
every possible facility for the religious education of youth.
The system of education which would be promoted in :these
colleges would be the Tutorian system. He had heard it urged
against this system of education, that the young men would be
taken from under the eye of their parents, and scattered over
the town where the college was situated, and taken from the
care of their tutors. It was not wise policy, however, to bring
up young men in monastic seclusion for several years, and then
to turn them loose at once, exposed toall the temptations of the
world. Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast,
and Dublin were all populous towns. He did not think that
there was such an absolute security for that purity of
morals, which showed either Oxford or Cambridge
a model for imitation. The proposed colleges were to
be placed in great towns, and there existed many reasons for so
doing, and whether the young men were confined, as at Oxford
and Cambridge, or were let loose, as at other colleges, rely
upon it no greater control would be obtained over the morals
of the young men. Those institutions were intended merely for
the middle classes of the State—a very large portion of those
who would send their sons to these institutions were residents
within the town. The advantage of an academical education,
with the blessing of parental superintendence, would be simul-
taneously obtained. None of the professors within the colleges
were to reside within the walls. He would inquire, then, what
would be more natural than that the professors living in the
town should open houses, where the pupils from the country
might be sent to reside. The professors would afford them all
the advantages of domestic supervision. The religious educa-
tion of the young men would be amply provided for by the ap-
pointment of persons duly qualified to instruct them in their dif-
ferent religious principles. When the different feelings of the
community, with respect to the Protestant and Roman Catholic
religion, was roused, within a short time the means for the en.
downsent of religious teachers would be amply provided, without
in the slightest degree interfering with the duties of the
students. Every facility, consistent with sound policy, had
been provided for the establishment of religious education.
The parties who endowed the religious establishments might
make their own provisions, to a certain extent, and the students
although possessing diversified religious opinions would have
the same opportunities as others of earning the rewards and
competing for the honours as the other students.—( Hear,
hear.) He had stated the grounds on which it was
objectionable to have religious institutions in colleges.
Every facility had been afforded for the religious education of
the youth. In a country in which it was impos-ible to educate
according to the principles of many religious creeds, divided
into a number of religious denominations, he entreated the
House to take the only course by which they could ensure the
advantages of secular education. He had that faith in the
feelings of both Protestants and Catholics, that he was sure
they, from their private sources, would nut fail
to provide for the instruction of their youth in
those different religions for which it was impossible the
State could provide. He was satisfied that if the Bill were re-
jected, their refusal would °pet ate with the most disastrous
consequences. The advantages which would be provided for
generations yet unborn, by institutions liberally endowed from
the funds of the nation at large, were incalculable. The inesti-
mable advantage of an education at once literary, scientific,
moral, and religious he might also add, would by the proposed
measure be secured to all Ireland.

The Royal Assent was gives to-day, at a quarter before he
o'clock, by Commission, to no less than ninety-three Bills,
among which were—the Assessed Taxes Composition Bill,
Sir Henry Fottinger's Annuity Bill, the Timber Ships Bill,
Bankruptcy D, claration Bill, West India Islands Relief Bill,
Seal-office Abolitionßill, Pcbl c Museums Bill, Scientific and Li-
terary Societies Bill, Canal Companies Carriers Bill, Do Stealing
Bill, the Infeftment (Scotland) Bill, Banking (Scotland) Bill,
Statute Labour ( Scotland) Bill, Arrestment of Wages ( Scot-
land ) ( No. 2) Bill, Schoolmasters ( Scotland) Bill, Banking (Ire-
land) Bill, Constables Public Works ( Ireland) Bill, Glossop Gas
Bill, the Glasgow Bridges Bill, the Totnes Markets and
Waterworks (No 2) Bill, the Wolverhampton Waterworks Bill,
the Lyme Regis Improvement Market and Waterworks
Bill, the Dundee Waterworks Bill, the Blackburn
Waterworks Bill, the Hartlepool Pier and Port Bill,
the Kendal Reservoirs Bill, the Manchester Improvement
Bill, the Chelsea Improvement Bill, the Belfast Improve-
ment Bill, the Agricultural and Commercial Bank
of Ireland Bill, the Quinborowe Borough Bill, the Forth
and Clyde Navigation and Union Canal Junction (No. 2) Bill,
the Manchester Court of Record Bill, the Reversionary In-
terest Society (No. 2) Bill, the Keyingharn Drainage Bill,
the Shepley Lane Head and Bansley Road Bill, the Har-
well and Streatley Road Bill, the Winwick Rectory Bill, Lady
Sandys' ( Turner's) Estate Bill, the Kidwelly Inclosure Bill,
and the following Railway Bills:
Railway Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) (No. 2),
London and Greenwich,
Belfast and Ballymena,
North British,
Lancaster and Carlisle,
York and North Midland (Harrogate Branch),
North Woolwich,
Guildford Junction,
Waterford and Kilkenny,
Exeter and Crediton,
Bridgewater Navigation and Railway,
Sheffield and Rotherham,
Edinburgh and Glasgow,
Newcastle and Darlington (Brandling Junction),
Southampton and Dorchester,
Eastern Union,
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr (Cumneck Branch),
Dundalk and Enniskillen,
Eastern Union (Bury St. Edmunds) (No. 2),
Londonderry and Enniskillin,
Chester and Birkenhead Extension,
Whitehaven and Furness Junction,
Manchester, Bury, and Rossendale,
Great North of England and Richmond,
Blackburn and Preston,
Leeds and Thirsk,
Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Manchester,
North Wales,
Taw Vale Railway,
Manchester and Birmingham (Ashton branch),
Ashton, Stalybridge, and Liverpool Junction (Ardwick and
Guide-bridge branches),
Eastern Counties (Ely and Whittlesea Deviation),
Manchester South Junction and Altrincham,
Trent Valley,
London and Brighton (Horsham Branch),
Moor Extension,
North Wales Mineral,
North Union and Ribble Navigation Branch,
St. Helen's Canal and Railway,
Great North of England (Clarence and Hartlepool Junction),
Great Western (Irelandy(Dublin to Mullingar and Athlone),
Cockermouth and Workington,
Richmond (Surrey),
Cork and Bandon,
Liverpool and Manchester,
Great Southern and Western (Ireland),
Preston and Wyre,
L) nn and Dereham,
Middlesborough and Redcar,
Dublin and Drogheda,
Newry and Enniskillen,
Dublin and Belfast Junction, with a branch to Kells,
Waterford and Limerick.
The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of
Buccleueh, and Lord Wharncliffe.

Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills.
THE PENINSULAR ARMY.

The Duke of RICHMOND begged leave to present a peti-
tion from the veteran officers in the Peninsular campaign, request-
ing their Lordships to recommend to her Majesty such rewards
as they might think proper. The petitioners said they would
not trouble them with the details of their services—the thanks
of both Houses had been often voted to the army in which they
served, and which was the best proof of the high nature of their
services. The walls of Parliament had often echoed with
most melancholy forebodings that the British army would be
obliged to fly to their ships for refuge, and that they would be
forced to return to their native land, defeated and disgraced.
But the transcendant abilities of his Noble Friend (the Duke
of Wellington) had averted that great calamity, and the Penin-
sula was freed and the tag of England was planted on the soil
of France. Every man must admit the claim of those brave
officers. How gallantly they opposed the victorious legions
of Napoleon—men brought up and educated in war. He did
not say that even the refusal of the prayer of the petition
would have any effect on the British army, for they would ever
feel bound to maintain the honour of their Sovereign. The
natural bravery of the soldiers, their enthusiasm, and the esprit
du corps which existed among them—the feeling that each in-
dividual had, that upon the success of his own personal exer-
tions depended the fate of the day—would always make the
soldiers do their duty. But he asked, as an act of duty—as the
payment of a debt of gratitude—the granting of the claim
which the petitioners sought. He concurred with those
petitioners ; but, at the same time, he must say that
he had no wish to impute blame to any one, still less to his
Noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington) whom he had always
regarded with feelings of admiration and respect. He blamed
not those who had conferred medals on the brave men of
Waterloo. nor on those who had fought in China and India,
but he asked was it right that these brave men whom he repre-
sented should be left with no other marks of glory than their
wounds ? Why should not these soldiers receive equal com-
pensation? He felt personally complimented by those brave
men having placed their petition in his hands, and hoped their
Lordships would think fit to grant its prayer.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the petitioners had done
him but justice in stating that he had never mentioned the war
in the Peninsula except in praise of the conduct of the officers
who served in it ; but, with all respect, he did not think either
House of Parliament could properly interfere in a case of this
description. Some years had now elapsed since these same
petitioners had made an application to him—it was
in the year 1840, and upon precisely similar grounds.
He then stated to these officers the position in
which he stood towards them and towards the Government
for a considerable number of years. He stated to them, that
for several years he had reported to the Government their
conduct as members of the Peninsular army, and that their
conduct had been brought under the notice of their Sovereign.
He further stated on that occasion that rewards to the army
was not a subject in which he could interfere. These were
acts for the Sovereign and for the advisers of the Sovereign,
and did not come into his province. He recommended to these
gentlemen at that time to make their application at the proper
quarter, but upon inquiry upon the present occasion he found
they had not done so. Nearly the whole British army served
in that war. The two Houses of Parliament returned their
thanks to that army, as it had served in no less than sixteen
distinct engagements. Medals were struck in commemoration
of distinguished actions in the Peninsula on no less than
nineteen different occasions,and were distributed to no fewer than
1,300 officers. A new system of promotion was now instituted by
means of special brevets, as a reward to those officers who had
particularly distinguished themselves. Officers of inferior
brevet rank were allowed to retire on superior rank, and to re-
ceive the pay and allowances attached to those ranks. These
were solid boons conferred by the public on these individuals.
There were among the Noble Lords present, no less than seven
Noble Lords who had been promoted to the Peerage for distin-
guished military services, rendered either by themselves or
their fathers, or grandfathers, and not less than 400 Orders of
the Bath had been conferred on officers serving in the Penin-
su:ar army, being very nearly one-half of the whole num-
ber. The late Sovereign had been pleased to confer a medal
nn every individual who served in the battle of Waterloo,
which honour had not been conferred before. The battle of
Waterloo was attended with circumstances of a peculiar nature.
Its issue was peace, after a war that had been waged for
upwards of a quarter of a century, and the natural expecta-
tion was that war would henceforward be at an end.
The distinction of the Order of the Bath was originally con
ferred on the Peninsular army, but lately it had been extended
to other armies and especially to the last Indian armies. This
was the history of the grant of this medal—it was for the good
conduct of the troops, and granted in order to induce activity
and good soldiership in the army. Its benefits had been found
in the Indian campaigns and also in the late war in China.
The British army had been engaged in fortified rivers and
against fortified forts in operation against a numerous and in-
telligent people. They suffered greatly, not only from the
dangers of actual warfare, but also from the Wipes of march-
ing and the scorching heat of the climate. The troops were suc-
cessful—successful at all points, and the result had been the en-
tering into a negotiation which would lay the fonnadtaytbirrosehitweoehfeena.
lastingne fi tsthpeacethat
mightwithbe
ehat
expectedgreat atnod
arise important
from
r e
this country and China were inca;culable. He spoke to their
Lordships of the army in the Peninsula, not as an unfavoured,
but a distinguished and well-rewarded army. But while they
remembered the deeds performed in the Peninsula they must
remember that other expeditions were equally renowned ; let
then but call to mind Egypt and Calabria, and say,
were not the officers engaged in those glorious campaigns
equally deserving of rewards 7 And they must not forget the
fleet, while entertaining the question of the merits of the army :
the fleet of Great Britain had maintained its glory fully as emi-
nently as the army, and yet a general medal was never dissemi-
nated among the fleet. Yet, there had been great naval vic-
tories—there were the actions of the First of June, of Cape St.
Vincent, and the Nile, but did ever any one hear of medals
being granted for those illustrious affairs? While, therefore,
such obstacles presented themselves to the prayer of the present
petition, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the House and
the entire
elntipuke who had precededrecountrymustfee him,
lthatthe admirable speech of the
was an unanswerable reply
to the petition laid on the table by the Noble Lord opposite ;
anything, therefore, he could add would be only superfluous.
Nevertheless, he was desirous of expressing his opinion of the
practice of officers asking for decorations by peti-
tion—in one word, he would say that he considered it
unworthy the character of British officers.—(Hear, hear.)
Officers ought to trust to the Crown for their rewards, the
House ought never to interfere. He looked upon the decora-
tions worn by officers with far greater respect when they were
conferred by the Sovereign, on the recommendation of the
Commander-in-Chief. British officers did themselves little
honour by supplicating for honours to which they considered
they were entitled. Would any of the officers engaged in
the victories in the Peninsula have petitioned for such a boon
as that now sought ? He never regretted anything so much
as when he heard that these officers were going to petition that
House to award them medals for their services—the more so
when the petition came from the hands of the Noble Duke. He
maintained that it would be unconstitetional to grant the
prayer of the petition ; and if it were granted, the officers,
when they grewsold, and sat by their fire-sides, could not but
look upon them as not spontaneously granted by their country,
but at their supplication.
some
The Duke of BUCKINGHANI held that the petition was
theirm most
blood
i
respectfullynworded. the seryiee
of
tAllhe thesetheir
country,i a
indvid
memorial that they had done their country service in the six-
teen engagements ie question. He demanded nothing more
than that the decoration which they sought might be awarded
individuals,
for,shed
who
washad
them ; they sought no other reward. Their Lordships must
surely think that many of these officers felt cause for not re-
mainingsure that there was not one of those who signed theKtiqq4
in the station in which they now were. He was
fought ,Ulypt
1Y119,44 ilot qAt 9yer7 officof wbg

The Earl of SHREWSBURY was of opinion that the
measure before the House had been properly described, when
it had been termed " a gigantic scheme of Godless education."
They had gained a victory once over fanaticism and blind pre-
judice, yet by some strange fatality they were now about to
abandon the principle for which they so long contended. The
people of Ireland asked why were they Christians to be edu-
cated like heathens, without the knowledge of God, and the
Government answered them, because we are the vassals of the
Protestants of England, who declare that your religion is super-
stitious, and your worship idolatrous, Was this a safe answer
to give to the people of Ireland, and was this the way to treat
people whom they were so anxious to conciliate? Surely the
Government would not argue thus. But yet the Government,
the strong Government, which, in spite of prejudice and
fanaticism had carried the Maynooth Bill, now yielded to
this unworthy opposition, and forced this Godless educa-
tional system on the people of Ireland. It was a
mere mockery to talk of the Irish being able to
provide religious instruction for the pupils in those colleges.
The poor Irish had already so many calls upon them, that they
were not at all able to meet any new ones ; they had to main-
tain their priests, and to build suitable edifices for the celebra-
tion of their religious worship, and, considering their poverty,
and all the claims upon them, it was wonderful how they did so
much. In short, it was impossible they could supply the large
resources necessary to carry out the scheme. Before they were
in a condition to furnish those funds, generation after genera-
tion would have passed away, and they would have experienced
all the evils of this most miserable and defective system of edu-
cation. The Government had thought proper to provide a re.
ligious education for early youth, was it less necessary for early
manhood, when the passions were getting strong and required
the restraint of religion—when the reason was beginning to
develop itself, and was most inquisitive and frequently most
sceptical in faith, and if not instructed would readily yield to scep-
ticism? It had been said that this measure was devised to pro-
testantise Ireland—he disbelieved the allegation, and thought
the Government was actuated by more unworthy motives. The
Noble Earl then alluded to the strong and unjust prejudices
which prevailed among the people of England against the Ca.
tholie religion, which they designated as idolatrous and vicious.
And how could this be otherwise, when their ministers, their
spiritual teachers, their guardians. preached such canting non-
sense as was spoken by the Rev. Mr. Alford, the incumbent of
Rugby ? The Noble Earl then read passages from a report
of the sermon of this person at the Church of St.
Matthew the Evangelist before a large- ceugyegation, just
previous to the third reading of tha Maynooth bill. The
preacher described the Catholic religion as idolatrous, as vicious
in rperals, and politically wicked ; he said, murder was sanc-
tioned by its tenets ; that perjury was countenanced, sod that
idolatry was enjoined i and, in QIN* to, VONO the ‘tratil 9t via‘

he said, he quoted the creed of Pope Pius the Fourth. But
what did he do? He interpolated:, the text in the most gross
and shameful manner, and added many words, upon which his
argument depended, and without which his argument would
have no foundation. He would not trouble the House with
these things, but the Roman Catholics had been so often
accused of crimes and misdemeanours, arising from their creed,
that he thought it right to rebut them. The Noble Earl then
read again from the sermon of Mr. Alford, which the congrega-
tion, in admiration of its ability, begged might be printed
and published. He there quoted the creed of Pope Pius, show-
ing clearly that the word worship had been interpolated. The
Noble Lord also read from the Catechism of the Council of
Trent, showing that, so far from Roman Catholics being enjoined
to worship idols, they were enjoined not to give any creature
the honour which only belonged to God ; and pastors
were commanded by the Council to instruct their flocks to this
effect. Images were only countenanced because they created a
more lively impression on the mind, and that the sufferings of
Christ, and the exemplary conduct of the saints might be
brought more vividly before the understanding. By this
Council it was expressly commanded that saints were only to
be invoked so that they might intercede with the Almighty by
their prayers, and surely no Christian could feel dissatisfied at
the practice of bringing the exemplary lives of the saints and
f ethers of the Catholic Church constantly under the notice of
the faithful.

Lord KENYON interfered, and said it was irregular, and
contrary to the rules of their Lordships' House, to read a sermon
there which had been delivered elsewhere.
The LORD CHANCELLOR desired the Noble Earl to
proceed.

The Earl of SHREWSBURY proceeded. There was not
one point of evidence to bear out the assertion of the Noble
Duke. The Noble Earl was proceeding to address their
Lordships with respect to the question of superstition and ido-
latry, when

Lord BROUGHAM interrupted him by saying, Really I
begin to agree with the Noble Lord on the cress benches.
There must be some limit to our debates. The Noble Earl is
going into questions which have no reference to the debate
before us.

The Earl of SHREWSBURY said when he heard the
Noble Lord opposite speak as he did with respect to the mea-
sure, he could not avoid occupying their time at the length he
had done. But would the Noble Lord (Brougham) promise
never to introduce anything that was irrelevant?—(Laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM would promise not to go into that
which had no relation to the subject before their Lordships,
namely, a defence of the Roman Catholics, in a debate
having reference simply to education.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Noble Lord had
better proceed.
The Earl of SHREWSBURY then resumed, and promised
that he should not detain their Lordships at much greater
length. He held that he was simply giving utterance to the
opinions which prevailed in Ireland. He hoped that they would
make a careful and searching inquiry, and not allow them-
selves to be carried away by popular declamation into measures
which could not fail to lead to the injury of the country to
which the measure before them referred. He called upon the
Government not to act as a vascillating Government, but as
anxious to serve and promote the interest of the country in
every way in their power. As a proof of their sincerity, he
-.-sished they would withdraw the Bill intended to be applied to
an unfortunate country, and bring forward in its place a mea-
sure which would meet with the wants, and which would not
outrage the feelings of the majority of the people of Ireland.
Lord BROUGHAM had no intention of treating the Noble
Earl with disrespect, but he conceived that he had fallen into
error with respect to the views he had taken. There was no-
thing so vexatious, and he often heard arguments carried out
to a great length, as a speech of the greatest ability where the
talents of the excellent speaker only win him on his way away
from the question. It was the greatest of afflictions
to have an able speaker turning his back upon the question,
and dragging on his arguments far away from the question
wider consideration. It was under that impression that he
(Lord Brougham) interrupted the Noble Lord. What con-
nexion could there be between the abstract merits of the
Catholic religion and the question before them ? It looked as
if there were to be professors against the Roman Catholic
religion to discountenance Popery and to denounce the religion.
The Noble Earl (the Earl of Shrewsbury) took occasion to
pass very high eulogiums upon the Roman Catholic religion,
forgetting that either this or the other House of Parliament
were the very last places where one should enter into a dis-
cussion upon the merits of any religion—a matter
for which a man had only to answer for to his
Maker. A discussion between Catholicism and Pro-
testantism was very far beside the question before
them. They were, however, to have a discussion on this mea-
sure, to-night, because there was a protest on the minutes,
which the Noble Earl thought it his duty to answer, and to try
to prove that this measure was quite distinct from the May-
nooth question, which many supported who thought fit to oppose
this measure. The Noble Earl said that he spoke against the
Roman Catholic religion ; he (Lord Brougham) had supported
the Maynooth question, but was he at the same time to set
aside any portion of his own religious belief? He rejected the
Roman Catholic religion on account of its immoral tendency—
he would not say its immoral results. He held this to be one
of the greatest measures in its apparently beneficial conse-
quences, that ever had been brought before the Parliament of
the United Kingdom. To be told that the Roman
Catholic clergy were against it was absurd. If
all the Roman Catholic clergy and laity, and all the
Protestant clergy and laity were gainst it, he would
not the less support the views which were taken by those
who introduced this measure. He did not support this mea-
sure a bit the more, because the Roman Catholic clergy had
thought fit unfortunately to withdraw their support from it.
He was not one of those who thought that they were never to
promulgate education, without connecting religion with it.
He not only supported this doctrine in Ireland, but also in
England.—( Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the children
ought to be taught their ciphering or what was necessary at the
school, but that the clergyman, belonging to the religion to
which the parents adhered, ought to teach religion to the
children. He was not one of those who said that
this was a triumph of his principles, because the
Government had decided in favour of the principles
adopted in the University College and against the doctrine
upheld in King's College. No, he thought that that did not
apply to Ireland where circumstances were quite different.
Was it excluding religion to say that there was a school where
natural philosophy and mathematics were to be taught to the
children from ten o'clock till four, and that then these children
were to go home to their parents, who would have an oppor-
tunity of teaching, either themselves or through their
clergymen, the religion which they professed, to their children ?
They who cared for no religion would provide for all creeds in-
discriminately, they would not be anxious for the observance or
distinction of any religion, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Pres-
byterian, Mahometan, Hindoo, Baptist, Anabaptist, and all
and every persuasion, would be allowed to be followed indiscri-
minately and evasively. Secular knowledge could be taught
without religion. Could any man doubt it? What did
custom, what did precedent prove ? When a French master, a
dancing mistress, a fencing master, or other such teachers
of useful or ornamental accomplishments were engaged, did the
parents require a man capable also of imparting religious know-
ledge ? Sorely if dancing and fencing could be harmlessly taught
apart from religion, Greek and Latin could as satisfactorily be im-
parted. Another objection to the Bill was that propounded by the
Noble Lord opposite in presenting some petitions that evening,
requiring and urging that no religion should be adopted that
was not founded on the system pursued at Oxford and Cam-
bridge. The promoters of such an argument evinced the
most profound ignorance, for at Oxford and at Cambridge the
most opposite systems were pursued. Thus in Oxford he ad-
mitted the principle of exclusive high Protestant teaching was
adopted, and the Government measure was in direct contra-
distinction to it ; hut in Cambridge the system was the very
reverse—men of all creeds could pass any examination except
that of graduating, and take any honours, even to that
of a wrangler, and stopping only at that of a fellowship,
when the subscription to the articles of our Church was required.
But lie must go a step farther and say, that the prospect of
danger was exaggerated, and, indeed, unfounded; and the
longer he lived the more he regretted that at the time of car-
rying the Union the Emancipation was not conceded also. The
endowment of the College of Maynooth was not included in the
Emancipation of 1829, and hence he was convinced had arisen
all the grievances in Ireland. It had been said the Roman
Catholic prelates and priests were obnoxious to the measure,
and would oppose it with all their vigour as well as use all their
endeavours to thwart it. To such a statement he replied
" Credat Judius:Apella I" " Credat ay, quis credat I"
—(Loud laughter.) In 1825 Lord Francis Egerton proposed
that an annual grant should be conceded of 250,0001. to pay
the Catholic clergy. Between 1,2001. and 1,500/. for the
archbishops, 400/. to 8001. to bishops, 500/. to deacons, and
1501. to the parish priests. Here was a great scheme, endow-
ing the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. And yet it
was now urged that the present measure was a novelty, and
that that Noble Lord to whom he had referred had departed
from his original principles. When that accusation was urged
he took occasion to inquire into the circumstances, and he
found, on reference to the votes, the facts he had just stated,
He would quote the testimony of the dead as well as the living
on this subject. He might, perhaps, be permitted to pause for
an instant, and to cast an eye over the memory of that illustri-
ous man who had just departed from among them ; and it had
never fallen to his lot to know of any man of a more unsullied
honour and spotless integrity conjoined with such great excel-
lence, as his illustrious friend who had now paid the debt to
nature. Of all men he held the opinion most strongly anj
most consistently to give liberty to oppressed Ireland h.; eman-
cipating the Catholics—to give equal rights to all, tier
subjects,
so that there should not be one law for the r',(l and another for
the poor. ;To take the mischief from '.litt hands of the mischief-
maker—to endow the Catholic religion liberally, but prudently,
was one of the darling objects of the life of the estimable man
who was now departed—
" Ut malignum ce'sare faciam otiosus reddam."
No man had ever lived more respected for his opinions and con-
sistency, and died more respected than Earl Grey.
Lord ELDON considered that when the Noble Lord
who moved the second reading of the Bill, said it was
without 'any religious distinctions as to sects, he would referd
him to one of the last clauses of the Act. According to his
opinion, he had also, in reading the petition, mentioned the
name of Cambridge, and it was not to be found in it.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
The Earl of CA RNARVt )N felt it his painful duty to
differ to-night from those Noble Lords with whom he was in
the habit of voting. He felt sure that they had the welfare of
the country at heart. He agreed with what fell from his
Noble and Learned Friend, that it was impossible to overrate
the importance of the measure before the House. He could
not satisfy his mind, that whatever might be the intentions of
her Majesty's Government, that the proposed measure would
not be a severe blow struck at religion. Ile would contend
that on public grounds they were bound to bring up the
scholars in such a way as would render them good men and
good citizens. It seemed to him, that as the State gave the
best secular education that it could, so it should give to the
youths the best religious education of which they might be sus-
ceptible. In every regulation the State was bound to advance
the public good, and the popular interests could not be more
effectually served than by training the youth up in religious
feelings. The institutions ought to he founded on such a plan.
His Noble Friend had presented a petition from certain res-
pectable men at Oxford, who opposed the measure on reli-
gious grounds. They felt that their duty to God and their
country compelled:them to come forward on that occasion.
He complained that no greater religious character had been
given to the Bill. The Noble Lord had alluded to the sub-
ject of separate colleges. He quite agreed with him,
that the harmony and good feeling likely to result from such
a union were very desirable. But he could not consider that
a mixed assembly of youths holding different religious
opinions, was likely to conduce much to harmony.
Separate colleges did not involve unjust ascendancy.
There was no likelihood of the Protestant or Catholic clergy-
men co-operating to carry it out. The Catholic hierarchy
denounced it, Mr. O'Connell denounced it, and there could be
but little doubt that it would be ultimately a failure. The
people of Ireland aceepted the Maynooth grant as a favour bat
regarded this measure as a curse. When they saw such names
as that of Bishop Murray enlisted in hostility against the Bill,
could they doubt but that the measure was hurtful to the re-
ligious feeling of the people and was considered as most in-
judicious ? » professor of history would naturally give a
colouring to faits according to his religion, and that colouring
would he strongest where people's prejudices were most sensitive.
He did not much see the necessity of a Catholic or Protestant
professor for geology or anatomy, but he would certainly
wish to see a good Christian fill the chair. He objected to
the great patronage which the Bill conferred—and did not think
the. power of nomination in the Crown afforded any guarantee
against the propagation of improper doctrines. This
had been feud •to be the case in foreign

universities. The great objection he had to thei
Bill was that there would not be any religious instruction at
or any religious endowment, at least for several years, vil°.eo
would be a reproach to this country. Religious
should not he left to the hazard of the die." The Stsht,e
should, as respects these pupils, stand in loco parentis.
Bill gave the bishops no veto, nor any other power whale
over professors, however wicked or infidel their principles.
was not insensible to the difficulties with which the question
was surrounded, and gave credit to the Government for the
courage in bringing it forward ; but he could not help think?,
that the provision for religious instruction was wit° (1
instructio,
inadequate, and that some means might be devilo
which would remove this cardinal objection frola
Bill. Education resembled the giant in the 61%
tales, who killed his parents. Education was perniei°!
if not properly managed, but could be rendered most servicealii:
and efficient by being well directed.--( Hear, hear.)
Noble Earl then alluded to the question of education in France;
and said he was happy to see that religion was reviving in 6°
country. On last Easter Monday there were 1,000 CO
nieants in the church of Notre Dame; and the provinew
churches of France, which were some years ago deserted, were
crowded. He could only repeat that he did not suspect 111.°1
the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord at the head of the Colorea;
Department had any other object in view in bringing forwar"
the measure than to benefit the country. He should therefore
move, and he did so with great pain, that the Bill be read lb°
day six months.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered that the met
sure before the House was but an instalment of the measurer
which he hoped the Government intended to bestow upon
land. The great object of the Bill was to secure the education
of the people of Ireland ; the second was the necessity of pro'
portioning that education to the different classes of which o°'
ciety was composed ; the third—and on which this questio!
mainly hinged—of laying down this system in a mode that:
should make it acceptable to all classes, preventing the boo
which they tendered from being loaded by regulations and laid
which might turn conscientious men from receiving thel
benefits which it was intended to confer. Some people were
°
opinion that the education of the great mass of the people scal,
neither proper nor covenient; but the contrary opinion Ow.
prevailed. The second point—that of providing education Ole
the middle classes. Whilst they had provided the means o{
education fig the poorer classes they had neglected the education
t
of the middle classes by leaving its support to the class %chich'
was intended to benefit. There was now a demand not only
among the laity but among the clergy of Ireland, for oni:i
thing, ou the part of the Government, which would affe„
the means of instruction in the practical sciences,
which men might earn their own livelihood ; and of
permanently useful to society. This, then, was the object cit
the present measure, but let him tell the Noble Lord. tit°
this desirable object would not be effected if that educafion
was made sectarian in the slightest degree. If there were pro'
fessors appointed to teach one religion, and colleges in which one
religion was taught, the worst results could not fail to euse.
With respect to the petition from some of the members of the
University of Oxford, clauses had been inserted, making ,F;r::
vision for the religious instruction of the pupils, without 1:0117
it exclusive. He must admit that there was one part of t.
Bill upon which he looked with apprehension--he meant tn,:
appointment of the whole of the professors by her AlsiestY
Government. He did not question the motives of the Govern'
ment ; he had no doubt—nay, he was sure it was their intention'
it was to their interest to appoint men well qualified to perform
their duties ; but there was a disposition in Ireland, whie,
could not be well rooted out, to attribute every appointinews
and especially appointments of this kind, to Government Pitv
tronage. He hoped that a provision would be introduced o
the Bill, now or at an early period, for concentrating all tbece
colleges int* the form of one national university, which,'
was convinced, would effect the greatest good. Thu;t"
College, Dublin, might be made the focus, but bs,
t
there was an objection to that course, a college raigh,
be erected in the vicinity of Dublin, where
heads of the other colleges might meet at one conitue
centre for the management of her affairs, and for confetti!!g
degrees on those who deserved them. It should be a college s/
itself, but the representation of the three colleges. .!.
carrying out of this suggestion could not fail to have a colienl;',
tory effect upon Ireland.--( Hear, hear, and cheers.) 13ef
he concluded, he wished 'in • press that a system of secular
education would also be most desirable to that country'
It should be in accordance with the feeling of the country If
afford education to every class of her Majesty's subjects. Is
this Bill was carried out with care it would give to the Pelly
an influence much wanted in that country. He cordial,'
supported this Bill, at the same time wishing that they Old
give it the utmost care in its ultimate operation. He their...
their Lordships for the attention which they had afforded 11"-
de t° Lord CLIFFORD wished to offer his unfeigned gratitu
the Noble Lord who had introduced this measure. He bact:i;
hesitation in giving his support to the second reading of t".
Bill. He thought it absolutely necessary, however, that tb,r;
should disabuse the people of Ireland of the notion that rust
people of this country were their enemies. He wished tho
his Noble Friend opposite would consider before he Shan
• dad
press his amendment that this Bill should be read this
six months.
Lord BEAUMONT said that he did not intend to aro
into the details of the question, because the remarks which by
would have made were more eloquently laid before than, le
the Noble Marquis near him. He could not, however, leo,
distinctly stating his unqualified approval of the measure.
approval of it was not founded on the narrow grounds taken 11
the Noble Lord who introduced it, that it was particilory
suited to Ireland. He approved of it for the great prinad
which it contained, applicable equally to England and Irelan
namely, the abandonment of religious tests, and the remove'd
by mixed education, of those animosities which arose onto
sectarian differences. That was the chief ground of
toil
approval. His Noble Friend behind him had tres
this question as a Roman Catholic question, but eli
(Lord Beaumont) was of opinion that it should as °d ills
be considered a Protestant question. He thought that tip,
Bill most properly took away from the priests that power of
terference with secular matters which.they at present most
ld
properly possessed. He would not detain them, and he 00°A°,0
only state that it was the only measure that could be Wile-1,0
Ireland in its present state ; and, would to Heaven that it is
been carried out in England.
The Bishop of NORWICH said that from what he il3lllO
heard all his scruples were gone, and he would not hesitate bt
giving this measure his most unqualified support. He theagti
that this measure would tend to create these bonds of fil-tr
which should exist between the people of this country and It
land ; and he thought it would introduce into that COlo'
the spirit of Christianity, which should prevail there. pi
Lord LYTTELTON said that he wished to ask a question.o
131
the Noble Lord (Stanley). There was a clause in the g
which provided that such students as were desirous of receirl:t
religious instruction could attain it. One would think riot
they need not attend any religious instruction if they did pa
think proper. In another clause it provided that the religtba
should be approved of by the parents or guardians of the
pupils. He wished to know if the pupil should receive spa
sanction of his parent or guardian, and whether the govern
body then could compel the pupil ? Afor
Lord STANLEY said that facilities should be affords to
giving religious instruction. Compulsion did not rest with
governing body.
t tsl4
The original motion for the second reading was then pu-_A
carried without a division, and their Lordships adjourned
Twelve o'clock.