The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-02 00:00:00

who employed this man to do this dirty work ought to
be known not only to the Government, but to the
-people. The people ought to know who ordered the
spending of their money for such purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
He-could not belieVe that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government would condescend to such
meanness, nor could he think the Right Hon. Baronet,
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had
any hand in it—(Hear, hear)—because, on a former oc-
casion, the Right Hon. Gentleman . had. said that the
Government had never employed spies among the po-
lice,- and that if any of them had been employed in such
a character, it must have been under the countenance'of
some local magistrates. Now he (Mr. D.) wanted to know
if it was a Member of the other House of Parliament ;
and this he would say, that, let it be whom it might, they
had inflicted eternal disgrace upon themselves.—(Hear,
hear.) So much for 'the 'Carlisle patriot, Mr. Ross.—
(Laughter.) He was now an ornament to the Standard
newspaper. - He was now, he (Mr. Duncombe) be-
lieved, a reporter on that paper—(Hear, hear)—and as
an agent of the Government, he (Mr. Duneombe) should
like to know what he had received as a remuneration
fir the services he had rendered. Before he went to the
case of Mr. Jackson, he would road to the House what
was the opinion of the Irish press upon these transactions.
There was an account of Mr. Charles Ross in the Dub-
lin newspapers which he would read to the House. (The
Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph describing the
manner in which Mr. C. Ross had acted in Ireland, from
which it appeared that that person had represented him-
self in Dublin as the reporter, first of the Morning Chro-
nicle, and subsequently of the Standard, while in re-
ality, he attended the meetings in Ireland in the
capacity of agent to the Government, for the
purpose of obtaining information to be afterwards
rendered available for prosecuting individuals. The
paragraph also stated that Ross had acted a most trea-
cherous part, tend one unworthy of a man having the
least pretensions to the character of a gentleman—that
he had deceived those with whom his professional duties
brought him in contact, having represented himself as
acting in the honourable capacity of a newspaper reporter,
while he was in reality a reporter for the Government—
that no sophistry could palliate such treacherous conduct,
whichwas so different from the conduct of those reporters
who, when called as witnesses on a former occasion of a
similar kind, had refused to attend. The paragraph
went on to state what was, in his (Mr. Duncombe s)
opinion, the most correct, that if this principle of turn-
ing newspaper reporters into Crown witnesses were ge-
nerally adopted, the freedom of discussion would be at
an end.)—(Hear, hear.). He came next to Mr. Jackson,
of the Morning Herald, who it appeared was not a re-
gular reporter, but a correspondent of the Morning
_Herald, and who used to write some very interesting
and entertaining reports for that paper, and which he
used to render, to use his own terms, " rather spicy" for
those readers who indulged in the Morning Herald.—
(Laughter.) 'At the close of that person's examination
he stated that the Morning Herald • had then lately
changed hands, and that it was a short time previous' to
thechange of proprietors that he had been directed to put
himself in communication with Mr. Kemmis, the Crown
solicitor, and that he had heard Mr. O'Connell fre-
quently repudiate his being made responsible for
1 what appeared in the newspapers. The witness
then said that he wished to say something, as
comments might be made on his conduct.
The Lord Chief Justice then asked him what he wished
to say. Mr. Jackson then protested solemnly that those
documents were given to the Crown solicitor, Mr.
Kemmis, by the proprietors of the Morning Herald,
without his knowledge—(Hear, hear)—and that he never
knew they were in the hands of the Crown solicitor till
they were handed to him (Mr. Jackson) by that gentle-
-man.—(Hear.) He said he thought it was due to his
character to make this plain explanation of the truth.—
(Hear, hear.) No person, said the Hon. Member, could
-cast-the least blame upon Iv.K ji-141!son after this state-
ment.-s(Cheers.) It wasj Mr. Jackson
was ashamed of the comhict of the Crown, and
that he was very 'anxious cast, the odium
of the transaction frolii!:jiiirifelf.' -Those • docu-
ments were handed -over:lLlsr the proprietors
for reasons best known .f6;theinselVeil,l:lle" knew it
might be said that .this took fA)Ce.before the transfer of
the ;Warning Herald, which happened on the ISt of
January ; but there were reasons for handing over
these documents before the money was 'paid, and before
the Government a's'sisted in.. advancing the money.—
(Cheera.) The Government, no doubt, had very equit--
able clahris to. the" documents 'which they found in the
Morning Herald office 'before that establishment was
transferred, and before it was incorportsted with the
Standard. But it was clear Mr. Jackson' Was ashamed)
of the transaction, though it appeared the Morning Herald
was not ashamed of handing over the documents.—(Hear,)
He said that the Government ought- to be ashamed of
their conduct in availing themselves of thosedikiinientss
He would read some, of the opinions Of,lhe prosaoss this
subject. The opinions were strong, but -not- stronger
than the conduct of the parties would justify. (The
Hon. Gentleman then read a paragraph from one of the
newspapers, which stated that the conduct of the Morning
Herald in this transaction, was unparalleled in the public
press. The charge against it was clear and unmistake-
able. The Herald received communications under the
seal of confidence, and had bartered them to the Govern-
ment, for the purposes of carrying on a prosecution.
Such Conduct struck at the root of all confidence in the
public journals. It made those who attended public
'meetings for the purpose of reporting, spies and in-
formers. They could but express their abhorrence. of
the perfidious conduct pursued in this transaction which
the .Herald and Crown might divide between them.)--
(Cheers and laughter.) Ile (Mr. Duncombe) concurred
in that Opinion, and he thought that even if the Herald
was base enough to hand over the documents to the
Crown, the Crown ought not to have availed itself of
them in a trial of such importance. The trial became
tainted by such conduct—(Hear, hear)—and they had
better have left the prosecution alone, than have con-
dueted it by such means, which reflected so little credit
on the Government. The Noble Lord; the Secretary for
the Colonies, informed the House the other night, with
more candour than discretion, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman wrote a letter to the Attorney-General for Ire-
land, commending him for the judgment, the firmness, and
good temper" with which he conducted the prosecution.
As they had thus passed a vote of thanks to the At-
torney-General for Ireland, he hoped that others con-
nected with the trials would nothe excluded. He hoped
the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench would receive 'a
vote of thanks for the charge he had delivered.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) 'He hoped that, Mr. Keinmis, too,
the. Crown Solicitor, would be thanked fore his
services in procuring the jury.—(Cheers.) No doubt
the proprietors of the Morning Herald and Standard
• found a sufficient recompense in their own, consciences,
and were above any idea of remuneration ; but he must
say they would not do justice to the Chief Justice and to
'Mr. Kemmis, if they only thanked the Attorney-General'
for the judgment' and temper with which be had con-
ducted the prosecution. Now, he wanted to know if a
'verdict 'so• obtained would gain any moral in-
fluence whatever-4e doubted it very much
it certainly had not produced that effect in England.
The impression,, from one end of England to the other,
was, that Mr. O'Connell had not had a fair'trial. At
the close .of last - session, • the Right '.Hon. Secretary
of State for 'the Home Department told 'the House that,
if it , did not strengthen the, hands of the Government,
and maintain its authority in Ireland, England would
present amelanchely spectacle to the eyes of surrounding
nations. If there was then a shadow of foun-
dation ' for the Right Honourable Gentleman's
assertion, the
,Government must now 'be in
that state of alarni. If they looked at what had
occurred during these, debates, and to the general opi-
niOn of the conduct' of, the Government, he must say he
had never known a debate so damaging to a Government.
----(Laughter' and Oh, oh ! from the Ministerial benches.)
They must be on the eve of the fulfilment of the predic-
tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, if there was the
slightest, foundation for his assertion of last Session.
He (Mr. DuncOmbe) had no apprehension of that
prediction being fulfilled. ' The only apprehension
he had of their becoming a melancholy spectacle
in the eyes of other nations was a fear that
Meinbers of Parliament would not speak out on this
question, and would not do their duty ; but if Hon.
Members on both sides of the House would do
their duty in this ' matter, there need be no alarm.
He . knew'it was' perfectly competent to her Majesty's
Ministers to refuse the returns he moved for, and that
without adducing one single argument in support of
their conduct, just as they had refused the other night
the motion 'of his Honourable and Gallant, Friend
near him (Ca.pt. Layers], we believe). On that occasion
'they relied not on argument, but on their numerical ma-
jority.s.(Hear, hear.) They might do so on that occa-
sion, they might refuse .the information he' sought for,
and which Ireland had a right.to have; but if they did
so, the country would , not be satisfied, and every
impartial man would come to the conclusion, that these
proceedings had been conducted,-from first to last, in a
way which reflected no honour on • them, either as men,
or as Ministers of the Crown.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WALLACE was understood to second the motion.
Sir JAMES. GRAHAM said, he should, indeed, en-
tertain a melancholy opinion of the future prospects, not
only of Ireland, but of the whole country, if the ma-
jortty in that House sympathised with the sentiments of
the Honourable . Gentleman who -brought forward
this raotion.-L(Loud cheers - from the Ministerial
benches.) 'And he must add, that, under ordinary circum-
stances, after the speech which had just been delivered,
and, especially after the invectives and accusations in
which the• Hon. Gentleman had indulged when speaking
of the' Government, he. should have considered it his
duty to oppose entirely the returns asked for ; but,
considering the whole' circumstances of the case—the
particular time at which the motion was made, and that
there must be a vote of public money during the present
se.ssion, in connection with, these prosecutions—he could
not bring ihimself to give to the motion a positive and
' absolute opposition. He would beg the House to re-
member in what light.the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dun-
combe) presented himself to them'that evening. If he
(Sir I. Graham) , mistook not, , the Hon. Gentleman
was last night attending a meeting of his constituents in
-Finsbury, where, after a strong and a warm discussion, a
motion was carried instructing him to obstruct the
progress of the supplies in that House.
'Mr. DUNCOMBE—There was no such motion.made.
Sir JAMBS GRAHAM confessed he might be wrong,
for. after the great variety of subjects there introduced,
and the great variety. of opinions expressed upon them,
it was somewhat difficult to say with certainty what had
really passed.-7(Hear.), The Hon. Gentleman a arned
the Government that .they were damaged by tbta 16-
debate, that they were not so strong as they-thong ht
themselves to be, and that a change hadrecently taken
place on his own side of the House. He wished him joy 1
it, and of the new compact alliance which they had formed
But he would now proceed to touch upon some of those
topics to which the Hon. 'Gentleman had adverted :in
his speech. He would not then go into the discussion-
'of 'the eonduct'of the trial in Ireland ; he would not then
re-open all those questions'which for -nine nights ,had
occupied the attention of that Douse.—(Hear, hear.)