The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 5.
1845.

in the latter, everything of this description is considered
an " improvement." One result of the extreme sub-division
of the land, and the multiplication of occupants of the cottier
tot.rft.l.,l- with the prevalence of alventeeism, has been
the reduction of the amount of capital employed in
agriculture to what may be fairly considered a minimum.
If anything is put upon the bare surface of the few
acres let to a single . tenant, it is the result, not,
as in England, of a return of some portion of the rent,
but solely of the desperate exertions of the wretched occu-
pier. Agricultural " improvements," properly so called, are
usually entirely out ef the question. The erection of a cabin,
the accumulation of a dung heap, and the raising, by the
most ordinary method, of a crop of potatoes of the most
inferior (because most prolific) description, form the utmost
limit of what the majority of Irish tenants can attempt.
But even this, measured by the means of those who accom-
plish it, is no little; and accordingly, the want of such a
"fixity of tenure " as shall enable the builder of even a mud
hovel and the raiser of a few roods of the commonest fencing
to retain, or obtain value for the fruits of his labour, is an
ever recurring topic of the bitterest complaint among the
Irish peasantry. The Comwissioners are not, it seems,disposed
to recommend the application of any direct legislative temedy ;
they would prefer leaving the tenant generally to rely, in the
first instance, upon a voluntary agreement with his landlord
for remuneration for any permanent improvements. But they,
recommend the adoption of some measure for giving "effi-
cacy to such agreements," and also providing for cases in
which agreements cannot be made, "with as little delay as is,
consistent with a full discussion of its principles and details."
They suggest, as the leading provisions of such a measure, a
power for tenants to register all such agreements with the
clerk of the peace, and to enforce them before an assistant-
barrister; and also, nyder the discretion of the same authority,
to make suitable improvements without the consent of the
landlord ; and, upon ejection, or raising of rent, to re-
cover compensation ; but giving the landlord the option of exe-
cuting the improvements himself, and adding to the rent five
per cent. on the outlay. It is obvious that such a law could
not operate, except where there are leases now_ in exist

_ . .
ence, and only till their expiration ; it would, there-
fore, be extremely partial. Besides which it would
be absurd in principle, as an attempt to fix by law
what must, while the land remains private pro-
perty, be the subject of private agreements. The evil,
however, as we have said, lies too deep for any such remediep.
The chief want is, palpably enough, a want of due attention
to their property on the part of the landlords. The next
is a want of capital. The landlord takes all he can get, and
returns nothing. The tenant has no capital beyond what his
own rude labour extracts immediately from the soil ;
and he can offer no inducement to those who are able
and disposed to take that from him, to enter into any
agreement for his retaining it. Again, it seems to be
everywhere admitted that there is a lamentable want
of mutual confidence and good-will in the relation of
landlord and tenant in Ireland. Now, putting aside for the
present the poverty of the tenant, is the growth of mutual
confidence between the parties likely to be promoted by a
law for encouraging the application of capital under the
shadow of a power to recover it by legal 'process ? Is there
hope for Irish agriculture in a hostile application of the pe-
cuniary resources of the occupiers ?

FLANDERS MAIL.
BRUSSELS, Kitten I. The Chamber of Representatives, in
its sitting yesterday, adopted several projects of law of purely
local interest, and received many applications for acts of na-
turalisation, all of which were taken into consideration.
A journal of our city says that the Bank of Antwerp (a
branch of the General Society) has resolved not to lend on
Belgian funds. We are enabled to affirm that this is a mis-
take. 'We believe we may assert that the General Society
did not make advances in Belgian funds either at Brussels or
Antwerp, but that sometimes, as an exception, it received pub-
lic funds and shares as representing a second signature on
papers (effects), which, according to the statute, ought to
have them.

Of late this faculty has been abused, to procure means of
exporting to London gold coin (ten florin pieces) which was
attended with some profit, the exchanges on London having
risen to 25f. 80c.

The General Society, which has always endeavoured to
prevent the exportation of coin, has judged it necessary to
take effectual measures to prevent the exportation of gold, a
large quantity of which had already been sent to London.
This measure has had the good effect of obliging the specula-
tors to go to Amsterdam to purchase ten florin pieces to a
considerable amount, for which they had to pay an agio of
per cent. _

BELGIAN FUNDS.—Bnusms, MARCH 1.
Actual Debt, 2 per Cent
Rothschild's Loan, Fire per Cent
Loan of Thirty Millions, Four per Cent -• • • 98%
Ditto Three per Cent .. • ......
Ditto Thirty-scren Millions, ditto
Ditto, ditto, 1840.. • • • • • • •••• • • • • • 103%
Ditto, ditto, 1844 •• • • • • •• • • •• • • • • • • •• • • 102
Ditto of the City, 1843 .. • . • • •• • • • 103%
Ditto, 1832 .. • . • • • .......
Bank ofßelg,ium.. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • ...... • 628
-Brussels Papers. March 2.

ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.
HOME ClRCUlT—Hertford, March 4.

The business of this assize concluded yesterday, but
the cases disposed of were devoid of interest to the
public.
In summing up to the jury on Monday, on a charge of
felony, in which the evidence against the prisoner was
very slight, and principally consisted of her own decla-
rations, and a statement made to the police-constable
who took her into custody, Mr. Baron Alderson took
occasion to make some observations regarding the prac-
tice of officers questioning persons in their custody under
charge, which were listened to with great attention, and
which are of considerable importance.
His LORDSHIP, after remarking that the general evi-
dence adduced in support of the charge against the pri-
soner appeared very far from being conclusive of her
guilt, said that evidence had been given in addition, re-
lative to some statements or expressions alleged to have
been made by her, in answer to questions put to
her by the officer, at the time, or ut all events
very shortly after she had been taken into his
custody. Now he (the Learned Judge) thought
that evidence of this description ought to be regarded
with very great suspicion. He did not mean to say that
it was any part of the duty of an officer to stop the
mouth of a prisoner—on the contrary, if he chose to
speak voluntarily, he should hear him ; but, most cer-
tainly, he ought to hold out no inducement to
him to make any statement. An officer had no right to
put questions to a prisoner, because the true effect result-
ing from them could only be ascertained by knowing the
exact tones and words of the question, and of the answer;
and it would be very hard indeed upon a prisoner, und, r
the tribulation of a charge—perhaps a young and timid
person—to give any effect to answers so obtained, unless
they were satisfied that they had the exact words of the
question and of the answer. It was very easy to put
captious and leading qie stions to a prisoner, and induce
him to give answers which might be taken as entirely
contrary to their true sense. In open court, the jury
had an opportunity of hearing the exact form of every
question, and likewise hearing the precise words of the
answer ; and also seeing the demeanor of the party who
was under examination, and could thus form a good
opinion of the value of the testimony that was given ;
but even then it very frequently happened that learned
counsel put their questions in such a form that the wit-
ness often gave an answer, the sense of which was totally
different to that which he intended should appear, and
the Court was often called upon to interpose and give
the witness an opportunity of explaining what he really
intended to say. This being the case, with how
much greater care ought they to look at statements
obtained from a prisoner under charge, where
even the suppression of a word, or even
the very tone in which a question or answer was given,
might, in the one view, be strong evidence of guilt, and,
in the other, as strong evidence of the innocence of the
party accused. He equally objected to the pretended
candour of an officer tilling a prisoner that he was not
bound to say anything—he had no business to do so. If a
prisoner, either acting from the consciousness of guilt,
or of his own free will, chose to make a statement in
connexion with the charge against him, it was the
officer's duty to hear it, and
was
it afterwards faith-
fully, upon his oath; and it was necessary, for the due
administration of justice, that this should be the case.
The jury, after a very short deliberation, Acquitted
the prisoner.

The Commission for Essex will be opened to-day, at
Chelmsford, at eleven, and both Courts will proceed to
business at one o'clock.

LATE MURDER AT HAMPSTEAD.

MARYLEBOIVE.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Inspector Gray and constable Thomas having given their
evidence, as already reported, the prisoner's father, Thomas
Hocker, was sworn. _ _

The prisoner, who had up to this time maintained the most
apathetic composure, seemed to lose all his indifference at
the sight of his father, and was on the eve of fainting, when a
chair was placed in the dock, and he fell rather than sat upon
it. The feeliing was only momentary, for almost immediately
he rose, and stood again erect, and calm as before. The poor
father suffered more than he, and he was humanely accom-
modated by the Chief Usher with a chair, placed in such a
position that he could not see his son. He added nothing
new to the evidence given in our yesterday's paper.
Mrs. Edwards was called in ; she stated that she had never
lent and never promised him any money.
Sarah Ann Philps—l have known Thomas Hocker for
about ten weeks.

Mr. RAwLiNsoN—How did you become acquainted with
him ?

Witness—Am I obliged to answer these questions ?
Mr. RAwuNsox—Yes, certainly.—The question, however,
was not pressed.
The witness said that she had nothing more to tell than
she said yesterday.
Mr. RAWLIIk7SON—You must tell me the whole story as if
you had never told it before.
The witness then stated that she had met the prisoner on
the night of the murder, and he showed her a watch and
ring. The watch he stated he had bought, but he did not
account for the possession of the ring. The watch was that now
produced, but the guard was not the same. The letter signed
" Caroline" is like his handwriting. The remainder of her
evidence was exactly similar to that given before the Coroner.
William Watson recapitulated his evidence of the con-
versation which had taken place in the elder Rocker's
house on the Saturday evening, in the presence of the
brothers. During the whole period of this witness's exami-
nation the prisoner was busily engaged taking notes of the
proceedings. At that part of his evidence, where he stated
that the prisoner said, in reference to the " happy meeting "
that evening, " We don't do it always in this style," the
prisoner smiled, and again when the witness referred to the
torn sleeve which the prisoner had shown him that night.
James Hoeker did not add anything material to the &Os
already detailed by him. One slight difference was in the
words used by witness to his brother at the time of his
being taken into custody. When the duplicates were being
given to the policeman witness observed one for a watch among
them, and said "Why, Tom, I thought you had taken the
watch from pledge." He replied, " No. The fact is, Jett).
Delaruegave me the watch at ten o'clock on Friday morning."
His brother, when he could get an engagement, taught
writing and music in private families.
George Leveridge, newsman, sworn—He saw the prisoner
on the night of Friday, the 21st of February, at the Swiss
Cottage. He pushed up to the bar, but witness saw him
sufficiently long to know him again.
Mr. Ititwrassoie said that he had determined to adjourn
the further examination of witnesses till the Tuesday follow-
ing. The prisoner might, if he wished, say anything, but
he cautioned him that his words would be taken down and
used elsewhere.

The prisoner—l will say nothing to-day then.
At this moment the waiter from the Swiss Cottage arrived,
and being sworn, said—A man came into the parlour and
asked for a glass of rum and water; in paid me out of* abil-

ling, and I noticed that he wore a sort of dark cloak. I have
looked at the prisoner, and he is not the man.
Prisoner (with a very peculiar t•mile)—l am the man.
Mr. IlAwuNsos (a;tonished)—Whn this is the witness
you called for.

Prisoner—l have no witness. I want the thing to be cor•
rect. lam the man.
Mr. IttwuNsos—Very well. The case is remanded GE
Tuesday next.

The prisoner, in the event of this being his last examina••
tion, was Prepared with a roll of manuscript, but whether
a defence or confession none could know. He has reserved
it, however, till the next examination. He was uncom-
monly cheerful, with the slight exception mentioned above,
smiled frequently, and gave snuff out of his box to those
around him who were inclined to try a pinch, and strange
though it be, his box was often in requisition.
The prisoner was then removed to Clerkenwell.

MARKET INTELLIGENCE.
(From the London New Price Current of MaTch 4.)
SUGAR.-To-day importers of West India Muscovado
Sugar were selling at prices rather under those of Friday;
but the demand was extremely limited, the private purchases
amounting to only 90 hhds and tierces.
REFINED.-To-day the purchases made in Refined goods
were extremely limited by the home trade, although further
reduced rates were taken, brown lumps selling at 67s to 68s,
and standard lumps at 69s to 70s per cwt. Bonded Crushed
Sugar met with little attention, and prices are drooping, 31s
to 31s 3d per cwt accepted for forward delivery.
MAURITIUS.-There has been a falling off in the demand
for all qualities, and a decline in the value of is per cwt has
taken place; the biddings were languid at a public auction
of 8,896 bags and 78 casks, the whole however was disposed of
at and after the sale, fine yellow brought 61s to 655, good mid-
dling and good 57s 6d to 60s 6d, middling 55s to 575, low
53s to 54s 6d, low to middling grey 53s to 565, good to fine
57s to 61s, good to fine brown 50s to 535, low 42s to 465,
syrupy 51s to 60s, and washed 41s 6d to 63s per cwt; the
proportion of brown in the sale was again small.
EAST INDIA.-This afternoon two parcels of Bengal
Sugar, amounting to 2,282 bags 486 boxes, duty paid,
were submitted to public competition, and nearly the
whole was taken in ; the small part sold went at a
decline of Is per cwt, low greyish yellow selling at
51s to 52s 6d, middling 535 6d, damp 48s to 51s Gd, washed
485 to 50s, brown washed 47s 6d, sound 47s to 495, good mid-
dling grainy damp yellow 56s to 58s, middling 535 6d, low
50s to 505 6d. Madras was in very limited request, and
3,550 bags at public sale were taken in and withdrawn-
washed brown at 47s to 50s, damp 48s to 54, and better qua-
lity 53s per cwt.
FOREIGN --Holders of yellow Havannah display firmness,
and will not sell but at fully late rates. good to fine 21s 6d to
22s 6d, low to middling 19s to 21s, and brown 17s to 18s 6d
per cwt. In white scarcely any business transacted. Brazil
held with firmness, and the demand fur white and brown is
improving. 400 chests have been sold at 22s to 22s 6d for
middling white, and at 18s Gd to 19s for good and fine brown ;
at auction 79 cases of Bahia were taken in above the value,
good strong grey at 22s Gd to 235, middling white 23s to 23s
6d, fine brown 19s, slightly damaged grey 20s 6d, and brown
16s to 183 per cwt.
Mona.ssEs.-The demand has been very limited fur West
India, and previous rates have been with difficulty sup-
ported, 20s
andd2Ohs
otlod
e2r4ssapreermcowret
iinscltiteed to value. East India dull of
s ell.
CI,FFEE.-To-day Mocha was only in limited request pri-
vately, and 63 bales at auction were taken in at 40s to 40s 6d
per cwt for Triage; the tendency of prices downwards. Of
Bahia 75 bags were taken in at 28s for good ordinary, being
the full worth. 143 bags of Costa Rica sold at lower prices,
and fetched 43s to 44s fin. fine ordinary. Plantation Ceylon
was more in demand, and 1,119 bags 4 cases at public
sale were all sold at full rates for the good and
fine kinds, but inferior went at a decline of 2s. per cwt, fine
ord gale coloury fetched 65s 6d to 68s, good ord greyish 53s
to 565, low ord musty 49s 6d, sound Peaberry 61s to 675,
triage 31s to 41s 6d, black lOs to 225. Holders of good ord
pale Ceylon show more firmness, and require 46s per cwt, but
there are not many buyers at that price.
-TEA.-To-day the market presented a flat appearance for
Tea, and the biddings were languid at the public sales, which
comprised 2,302 pkgs : the Tea passed the sale to-day con-
sisted of Assam, a part only of which found buyers at rather
lower rates : prices ruled unevenly. Congou and Souchong
fetched 5d to 2s 9d per lb. For auction to-morrow 7,949
packages of tea are declared. The arrivals have been large
since this day week, amounting to 62,400 packages-
SPICES.-To-day Cassia Lignea was in excellent request,
and 500 chests at public sale were all disposed of at an ad-
vance on former rates of is to 2s per cwt; good middling
fetched 618 'to 625, middling 57s to 58s 6d, ordinary coarse
545, ordinary 555, beetle stained 54s 6d, sea damaged 51, half-
bundles 53s to 545, and broken 495; the chief part consisted
of middling sound, which realised 58s to 58s 6d per cwt.
Rust, BRANDY, AND Homarrus.-Leeward Island Rum
purchased with caution, although there are sellers upon
further reduced terms ; small parcels have been disposed
of at Is 10%d to Is lid per gallon proof. Few purchasers
of Calcutta, and prices have further given way, Is 9%d
to is 10d having been taken for proof with cer-
tificate. Demerara has suffered no further depression, a
moderate demand at 3s to 3s 3d for strong descriptions.
Jamaica has been purchased very sparingly 21 to 26 0 P
at 3s 2(1. to 3s sd, 26 to 29 0 P at 3.5 5d to 3s 6d, 30 to 36
O P 3s 7d to 4s, fine 31 to 36 0 P at 4s 3d to
ss, very fine and rich 5s 3d to 7s per gallon.
For Brandy further reduced rates have been accepted,
Cognac, best brands of the vintage of 1838, hhds 4s lid,
puns 4s 9d; 1839, hhds 4s Bd, puns 4s 6d ; 1840, hhds 4s Bd,
puns 4s 6d; 1841, hhds 45 7d, puns 4s sd;
1842, hhds 48 4d, puns 4s 2d; 1843, hhds 4s 2d,
puns 4s ; common 2s 7d to 2s 10d ; mid to good mid 2s Ild
to 3s 8d; and Bordeaux 2s 6s to 2s 8d per gallon. Geneva
is dull of sale, and there are sellers of common export sort at
Is 9d per gallon proof. Superior, fit for duty, is 2s 3d to 3s.
RICE.-To-day the market was better supplied with
Madras Rice, 1,864 bags were submitted to public competi-
tion ; buyers were anxious to operate, and the whole was dis-
posed of at an advance of 3d to 6d per cwt-
low middling pinky white Bengal kind fetched 9s 6d to 10s,
sea damaged first class 9s to 9s 6d, second class Ss 6d to 9s,
third class 7s 6d to 8s 6d, sound bold brown Bengal grain
9s to 9s 6d, sea damaged first class 9s, second class 8s 6d,
third class Bs. Bengal met with attention, and 1,001 bags
at auction sold at stiff rates; low middling old dull white
fetched lOs 6d tolls, middling old but whiter lls to lls Gd,
sea damaged first class 103 Gd to lls, second class 10i to
10s Gd, and third class 9s to 9s 6d per cwt.
SALTPETRE.-To-day there was only a limited demand for
Rough privately, and 545 bags of Calcutta at auction were
taken in at 27s to 27s 6d for middling dingy white, 3 per
cent. refraction.
INDIGO.-The market has still a firm appearance for East
India. Bengal is in fair request, fetching January sales rates
to 3d per lb advance. Madras has met. with attention, and
several purchases have been made at prices 2d to 4d per lb
above those of last quarterly sales.

SUGGESTIONS RESPECTING THE
MONUMENTS IN WESTMINSTER ABBEY.
hugereignsofmonuments, in
the styles prevalent during
the
Elizabethand James, or before the art
of sculpture had been created in England by Bacon
and Flaxman, block up the aisles or the windows,
whilst architectural decorations of surpassing beauty
have been cut away, to make room for tasteless mo-
numents to men unknown to the pages of history.
In the east walk of the cloisters, over the door lead-
ing to the Record- office, may be seen the most
beautiful bitr of architecture which the Abbey
affords. Two brackets support mutilated
figures of. angels, and the third is thought to have
borne a figure of the Virgin and child; the whole
being surrounded with scroll-work of most beautiful
design; but in the very centre of the composition a
square tablet has been inserted. Of such barbarisms
there are several hundred instances. The range of
beautiful arches beneath the windows of the aisles,
once enriched with colour and gilding, have almost
disappeared, being replaced by tablets of the most
objectionable character. Every part of the building
is crowded ; a huge figure of Watt nearly
fills the
chapel of St. Paul, a window in the south aisle is
blocked up with a mountain of clouds; even the
elegant chapel of Henry the Seventh is defaced. It
is much to be deplored that the dean and chapter do
not take it into their immediate and anxious conside-
ration, whether some change in the disposition of the
monuments may not be effected less detrimental to
the fabric itself, and more conducive to the ends of
monumental design. It has been suggested that the
chapter-house would be an appropriate place for some
of the monuments, but we should deprecate any step
which would only remove the evil, and prevent the
restoration of the building to the exact state in which
it formerly existed. The triforium is sufficiently
lofty for a large portion of the monuments; it is
well lighted,
and would, in our opinion, be the most
desirable place. There is no architectural decoration
which they would interfere with, and we urge that
the advantages of this position be well considered.
We have not had the opportunity of personal exa-
mination, but we believe that the height of the tri-
forium is nearly 15 feet in the highest part, from
which it takes the slope of the roof; it is lighted by
the upper range of windows, and is, of course, the
same width as the aisle, and has a 'ood.flcor laid upon
the grc ining. The monument to Wilberforce, an ad-
mirable work, though hardly adapted to its locality, is 9
feet high, including the pedestal, and the greater part of
the objectionable works are much smaller. The
monument to William Pitt, Earl of Chatham, is the
largest in the Abbey, reaching to the capitals of the
piers ; several others are near the same size, and for
these another locality must be found, unless they are
consigned to the lime-burner, a way of getting rid of
them, which, for ourselves, we should hardly regret.
Whether some of them could be placed in St. Paul's,
without injury to that edifice, or whether, as has been
suggested to us, a cloister
could be built in Dean's-
yard for their reception, is matter for very careful
consideration ; but we could well consent to their re-
maining as at present, if other monuments were re-
moved.— The Builder.

some alartn WaS
EXPLOSION AT A FiztrovoßK-NummeB,--Yesterclay
soutti:itArtu, itiohwtiomt bf 1
acrfteeartne°d°
fearful explosion occurring itpnli the premises occupied by
Mr. T. Hall, firework-rnaker, situate at 46, Gibraltar-row, in
inn, between wjeennrgthera.hroottig of four
the above road. It appears that tie occupier of the Ito Use
+l'
was engaged on the first floor preparlhg ti gum,* hi th
composition used in the tnanufaettire t,r littworksi Whehifroin
sonic unknown cause, the whole exploded, anti 'With laiitik
violence that upwards of twenty stplares i
µ; s 9 were in-
stantly demolished; Mr. Will Ver".,• Severely burned about the
face, and the isparthrat set on fire. The brigade and the
West of tngland engines promptly attended, and a good
supply or water was instantly furnished by the Lambeth
Waterworks. The inmates and inhabitants, after some
trouble, got the fire extinguished. Mr. llidl is uninsured.
ANOTHER FLYING .MACHINR.—The Cincinnati
Gazette says, that a patent has been obtained, by J. 11. Pen-
nington, for a machine to navigate the air. It consists of ten
section balloons, a car, and a steam-engine. The engine, of
one-and-a-half horse power, it is proposed to place in the
upper story of the car appended to the balloons. The steer-
ing power is a rudder or oar connected with the bottom of
the balloon.

CusTous.--The Hon. William Cust, Commissioner
of Customs, died yesterday morning, the 4th instant. His
decease was, we believe, rather unexpected, though he has
not been very regular in his attendance at the Board for
G
some time past. Mr. Lust's death places a Commissionership
of Customs at the disposal of th9ov emmont, being the
third since accession to once,

I 11PERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 4.
The i ORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'Clock.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition
from the owners and occupiers of land, the tradesmen,
and labourers of the parish of Cuckfield, in the
county of Sussex, complaining of distress. The
petitioners expressed bitter disappointment, in which he
(the Noble Duke) fully sympathised, that in the pro-
posed alteration of taxation the manufacturers, who
were now comparatively prosperous, should have
all relief, whilst none was given to agriculture,
which was so severely depressed. He knew the peti-
tioners, and he could vouch for their respectability and
fur the truth of their statements. For his own part,
he was determined to fulfil the pledge which he had
so frequently given, to move fur the expunging
from any Bid which came before the House of any
elatne in favour of the untaxed foreigner at the expense
of the heavily taxed British fanner. He had
always said that free trade would be the ruin
of the country, and he now saw that every mea-
sure of financial arrange meat was tending to that
point.—(Hear, hear.) If all articles of agricultural
produce were to be allowed to come into this country
the labourers would speedily be ruined, and
then the only persons left to support the evil
would be the tenantry and the landlords. The Noble
Duke presented several other petitions, from places
in Hampshire and Sussex, complaining of agticul-
tural distress, and praying fur the repeal of the malt tax.
He presented also a petition from parish schoolmasters
in the north of Scotland, praying for an increase of their
stipends.

LAW OF DEBTOR AND CREDITOR.
Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from the
Trade Protection Society of London against the late al-
terations of the law of debtor and creditor. He would
move that the petition be read by the clerk at the table ;
for, although the opinions of all the law Lords in the
House had been heard upon the question, the opinion
of those tradesmen, who knew by experience the
actual working of the law, had never been
heard. The petitioners stated, that in West-
minster the great bulk of their debts were under
the sum of 201., and under the present state of
the law people did not hesitate to take the goods of
honest tradesmen without the prospect of paying for
them. He regretted to see so much overstrained sym-
pathy with the debtor, and so little consideration
for the losses of the honest and struggling trades-
man. I:e then moved that the petition be read at length.
The petition was readby the clerk at the table. It
complained that the law of last ses: ion affected parties
ho had contracted debts under ad.—that it was
doubtless advisable to abolish the practice of imprison-
ment for debt iu certain cases, but that in this ease
the debts which were affected were those which ordinary
prudence would enable a deb:or to satisfy—that the
claims of the creditor had not been sufficiently
attended to, and that the interests of creditors
had been overlooked in those cases in which
he was least able to protect himsel for the
Act of last session gave an immunity for debts,
which of all others it was most difficult for the
creditor to prove—that it gave an advantage to the
impostor against the fair tradesman ; and that in ,
practice it had proved highly injurious and exceedingly
prejudicial to the interests of creditors. Under these
circumstances, they prayed for the repeal of the Act of
last session.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he perfectly agreed with
the position taken by the Noble Lord, and he believed
that it was highly important that the interests of the
retail dealers should be attended to. This petition
affected a large class of persons, the retail dealers of the
great city in which their Lordships were at that moment
sitting. In this respect thecity of Westminster was placed
in the same position with the dealers of that important
body of persons, the dealers of the City of London and
the borough of Southwark, and he thought their
interests ought to be attended to. But had they known
the position in a hich he (Lord Brougham) was placed,
they would not have heaped upon him the abuse which
they had. The fact was that the Bill was neither his
nor the Bill of his Noble and Learned Friend on the
Woolsack ; it was originated by a Noble and Learned
Friend of his, not then present. They had adopted the
principle and given it their support from the frightful
details which had been brought before them of the
dreadful state of the prisons which were used for the
committals of those who were responsible for small debts.
The accounts stated by his Noble and Learned Friend,
upon the authority of most highly respectable persons,
were enough to make one's blood curdle. Did it not
make them shudder to hear that some of their fellow-
creatures, were confined in places unfit for human
habitation? These poor creatures had been confined in
places loathsome from the degree of abomination and
filth which they presented, inhaling unwholesome air,
and lying upon straw, or clothes which they were
never suffered to take Off. In fact, they were treated
in a manner that would be cruel even to a
person condemned to death for terrible crime. It was
a knowledge of those circumstances that induced them
to adopt so much of the other Bill which would abolish
imprisonment for debt altogether as applied to debts for
201. and under. He was happy to state to their
Lordships that the working of the Act had been highly
beneficial, and a report on the subject gave very satis-
factory accounts of its results. The Bankruptcy Com-
missioners had, however, thought proper to put
an inaccurate conclusion on one part of the Bill,
and many of those poor creatures, who ought to have
been liberated in September, were not removed from
prison till December. He admitted the propriety of the
objection to the Bill urged by the petitioners, but he
did not despair of hereafter being able to propose a
remedy for this.

Lord CAMPBELL would be glad to support his
Noble and Learned Friend when he brought his remedy
forward. There was one part of the Bill not adopted
last year, or there would have been ne necessity for
these complaints. But no doubt this arose out of the
hurried manner in which the Bill was passed last session.
His Noble and Learned Friend had referred to the mis-
construction which had been put upon one of the clauses.
But no one knew better than his Noble and Learned
Friend that no one was less qualified to interpret a
clause than the person who drew it up.—(A laugh )
Lord BROUGHAM.—Oh, but I did not draw up the
clause.—(A laugh.)
LerdCAMPBELL—StiII his Noble and Learned Friend
knew very well the other authorities were better able to
interpret the meaning of the Legislature than the gen-
tleman who was entrusted to give it expression.. He '
hoped that the House would not be induced to re-
trace its steps, by the importunity of the Noble Lord
'opposite, who, as well as the petitioners, the tradesmen
of Westminster, had always opposed the abolition of
arrest upon mesne process. Those tradesmen had in-
sisted to the last that the abolition of mesne pro-
' cess would be their ruin. But he would ask,
had the result so proved ?—(llear, hear.).—
He would venture to say that those tradesmen had
themselves been greatly benefited by the abolition, for it
bad made them more cautious about the persons to whom
they gave credit.
Lord ASHBURTON—They did not say that they
would be ruined by it.
Lord CAMPBELL—They did say so. lie believed that
all experience on the subject showed that they might
safely abolish imprisonment after flea! process, by
giving a better remedy against the property of
the debtor. The Noble Lord (Ashburton) had
said that it was netbing for a man to spend
a week or two in prison. But did the Noble Lord know
that very few men came out of prison without being de-
mo' alined ?
Lord BROUGHAM said that he had not drawn up
the Bill. It had been drawn up by one of the Judges,
and the incapacity to interpret it had been on the part of
another learned judge.—(A laugh.) Notwithstanding
all that the Noble Lord had said, he still thought that it
was necessary to give credit, and if the creditor was
called upon to endure this risk, he ought in fair justice
to have a corresponding security. Now, he wculd ven-
ture to assert, and he did it without any intention to
offend, that their Lordships all went upon credit. He
thought he might say, without fear of contradiction,
that there were few of their Lordships, if there weie
a. y—and he eid not believe that there Isere—who paid
their bills oftener than once a year. It was a custom
that had grown upon the country, and Bit refore no man
was to be blamed for abiding by it. But still, at the
same time, he must say that example vas a powerful
thing, and the system went through the several grades
of society until it reached that class whose means were
of a very different order, and he believed, therefore, it
was necessary to find a remedy, so as to give a means of
satisfaction to the creditor for small debts; that was, the
Bill went too far. No honest debtor would suffer a re-
straint upon his person in order to preserve his goods
and prevent the payment of his creditor. On those
grounds he trusted that their Lordships would express
no indisposition for a revision of this measure, and in
some way give effect to the terms of the petition.
Lord CAMPBELL was not indisposed to give every
necessary remedy to the creditor, but it was not to be
supposed that credit should not be giren. The world
could not go on without it ; but he did not believe that
giving a Creditor the' power of imprison log his debtor
would avoid the evil of which the Noble Lord had Com-
plained.
CONSTABULARY rORQE IN IRELAND.

The Marquis of NORMANBY_eaid had

given notice of his motion, he had been exccedingly
desirous to bring it on without the smallest delay •, but
tin the request of the Noble Puke opposite (the Duke of
Wellington), he had consetited to postpone it till Fri.
dirk. In the tibsence of his kale Friend the Secretary
tor the 'Colonies he Was led to believe that it would be
inconvenient to her Majesty's Government to reply to
the question tin that day. This was unfortunate, but
thb had no tither rctuuree4 for another Noble Lord, the
late Secretary ftir Ireland (the Earl ':f f3t. Germains),
Was tniieilj l±i po.iFtgsioil of the facia with his Noble
Friend. He had been in communication with the ex-
ecutive, and could, therefore, give a satisfactory ex-
planation of all the circumstances upon which
he desired to be informed. His Noble Friend (Earl
Fortescue) had tegreed to postpone his departure so as to
meet the convenience of her Mvjesty's Ministers, but he
thought it better to bring the mition on, and would,
therefore, postpone it till Friday,
but no longer. ye
then hoped that the Government would be able to give

exp anat on without any tun erdelay-
The Duke of WELLINGTON :aid that his Noble
Friend the Secretary for the Colonies had been unable,
from indisposition, to examine the documents, with
which it was necessary to be acquainted, in order to re-
ply to the Noble Marquis's inquiries. He wished to do
this, because be desired to give his opinion on the
matters whtcli the Noble Marquis intended to submit to
the House. In consequence of his inability, the Presi-
dent of the Council (Lord Wharneliffe) had consented
to go through these returns, but he was also indisposed,
and unablQ attend the Rouse. The Noble Lord, too,

to whom the Noble Marquis also referred (the Earl of
St. Germains) was also unable to attend the House, for
he was absent from London. Now, he (the Duke of
Wellington) was anxious, if the discussion came on at
all, that the matter should be discussed by those who
were able to throw light upon it, and, therefore, he hoped
that the Noble Marquis would consent to postpone his
motion to some future
The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he was aware
that his Noble Friend was responsible for the whole of
these returns ; but still he thought his presence was not
absolutely necessary, for he believed that the Noble
Duke himself, or any other Noble Lord, would be quite
able to master the whole of these papers in twenty-four
hours. Taking the whole of the circumstances into ac-
count,
and the great importance of them, and the excite.
merit which prevailed respecting them, he could not con•
sent to any further delay than Friday. He had himself
been called by the Duke of Portland, from the country,
at twenty-four hours' notice. Shm ld the Noble Duke,
or any other of her Majesty's Ministers who were pre-
sent on that day, be unable to"give an answer, he would,
of course, postpone it uutil some future period, but, at
present, he felt it his duty to fix the day for bringing on
his motion on Friday. He gave notice, also, that on that
day he should move for a return of all the outrages which
kad been committed in Ireland during the same period.
REFUSAL TO TAKE OATHS.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition from a person
who was a prisoner under the bankruptcy laws. In
consequence of inability to take an oath, arising from
conscientious motives, there had been an incompetency
to examine him before the commissioners oft bankruptcy.
The consequence was that he had now been imprisoned
not less than three years. He (Lord Denman) was
bound to state that ail his explanations were satisfac-
tory. From the same inability to take an oath he had
been unable to procure even the prison allowance, and it
was only with the utmost difficulty, and by very great
exertion, that he had been able to sustain himself. He
(Lord Denman) felt these to be circurostznces which
called for their Lordships' notice, and he should, there-
fore, move that the petition do lie on the table.
The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Ashburton) had re-
ferred to several circumstances, which led him to sup-
pose that the operation of the Act for Abolishing Im-
prisonment for Debt was unsatildlctory. He (Lord
Denman) would take that opportunity of saying that that
Act as yet could hardly be said Co have come into ope-
ration. Certainly the effects of it were not as yet fully
evident. He believed, then, when we had full expe-
rience of its influence, the Act would be found beneficial
to all parties. The ill effects that were at present expo
rienced ought decidedly not to be charged to that mea-
-1 sure. It was not, as the Noble Lord (Lord Ashburton)
supposed, the concoction of lawyers and men unac-
quainted with commercial affairs. He had sat on the
Committee for considering the details of that measure ;
and though there were not many commercial men on the
Committee, yet they had taken the opinion of those men
who were known to be high as commercial men, and
whose experience was unquestionable.
On the motion being put, that the petition do lie on
the table,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he would take
an opportunity of turning his attention to the sugges-
tions which the Noble Lord (Lord Ashburton) had made
to the House.

read over the resolution, and it did not appear
on the face of it that such a Member would be
necessarily excluded from serving on th t Committee.
Bet if it was the intention of the House that all railway
Bills were to be ref: rred to a Committee to be nominated
particularly by another Committee of classification, as it
was called, he apprehended it was the object of the Com-
mittee to exclude all those Members who had a local,
though net a private, interest in railways from serving
on them. He believed that was the intention of the re-
solution, and he hoped the House would pause before it
gave its sanction to any such proceeding, for though he
was free to confess, from his experience of Committees
on private Bills, that a great improvement had taken
place within the last few years, namely by the House be-
ing able to select a sufficient number of selected Members
whose decision the House invariably affirmed, yet
he thought it was necessary that some person
acquainted with the locality which the Bill
affected should be upon the Committee. But he
thought it very material that this principle should
not he carried out too far; for instance, in many cases,
after the counsel and witnesses had withdrawn, when
the Committee came to deliberate on a particular Bill, he
had seen the greatest disadvantage arise from the fact
of none of the selected Members having any knowledge
of the locality. Now, in proof of that, he would put one
case—he would suppose that a railway was intended to
pass through Lincoln or York, and he would suppose
that the selected Members were three Scotch and two
Lists Members, who had no interest in the subject, and
knew nothing about it, and supposing that an opposition
arose in the course of the inquiry, he should like to
I know in what situation the Committee would be placed,
in consequence of having no Member present who knew
anything of the locality. how, he would ask, could they
come to an impartial judgment without having some
person present, nho knew something of the spot. He did
not object to the number of selected Members, nor did
he object to certain of them not being allowed to vote,
but he was certain, if it was the intention of his
Noble Friend to exclude all Members whose cone
stituents had any interest in the measure, that
the greatest inconvenience would result. Ile hoped
the House would pause before it sanctioned such a
proceeding.
Mr. GISBORNE agreed with the statements and rea-
soning of the Honourable Member opposite, but unfor-
tunately he would not be able to give him his vote,
as he agreed with the proposition of the Noble Lord.
He agreed with the Noble Lord that, in consenting to
these arrangements, he would give up all the advantages
of local knowledge. The evidence which would be
brought before the Committee, under the present ar-
rangement, would not furnish the best information on
local subjects; for those who could give the best and truest
information would be excluded. No doubt but those
witnesses who would be produced I y the contending
parties would be well informed ; but they would be
prejudiced in favour of one or other of the contending
parties. It was a well established fact, and known by
experience, that whenever professional men were en-
gaged, be they lawyers or doctors, surveyors, engineers,
or chemists, the most contradictory evidence was given
by the most respectable witnesses.—(Laughter.) When
upon these committees, his mind was at times perfectly
bewildered by those masses of irreconcilable and oppo-
site statements ; and might have continued so, if some
Hon. Member who possessed some local information had
not said a few words that made every thing straight
and plain. He would, however, give a reluctant support
to the resolutions of the Noble Lord.
Captain EGERTON said that he entirely agreed
with the Hon. Member as to the great disadvantages
which Committees would labour under in not possess-
ing this local information. He trusted the house would,
to a certain extent, reconsider these resolutions.
Mr. EIVART said it was perfectly competent for a
Member of thatalouse, having a local interest in matters
referred to a Select Committee, to appear before the
Committee to give evidence as a witness.—(Hear.)
Mr. SHAW said this course had been pursued with
very great advantage in the Committee of last year.
Mr. BANKES did not understand that it was any part
of the proposed resolutions not to summon Members of
Parliament as witnesses on certain lines; and if doing
so did not meet the question now before the House, if
the resolutions were to be passed in that undefined form,
the result would be endless contention and misunder-
standing; and for this reason, that besides the interests
of the different classes mentioned as intended to be re-
presented, there was yet another class whose interests
were much more important than any of the others, he
meant the interests of the public.—(Hear, hear.) And
if the public interests were not to be represented by
Members of Parliament, he would like to know who
could give local information to the Committees on the
subject ?—(Elear' hear.) He made those observations
in order that the House should be careful not to give ite,
sanction to any Bills which were adverse -to the public
interests.
Mr. GREENE said it would be quite impossible for
the House to dispose of those Bills, if they were to be
called upon to attend and listen to every local interest
sought to be represented. If the principle of the repre-
sentation of local interests was to be admitted, the House
ought not to have reduced the number of local Members,
which they had done some years ago. He thought it
would be inflicting an injustice if they were to adopt
such a principle. They ought to admit no local Mem-
bers. They sat either judicially or representatively.
If they sat judicially, the smaller the number of Mem-
bers, the better. They would be enabled to procure all
the information they might require much better from the
examination of witnesses than they could from the
attendance of local Members. If the Committees sat
representatively, the House had committed a gross in-
justice in reducing the number of the Members. He
could not see the smallest utility in having the attend-
ance of Members representing local interests.
Mr. C. WOOD was sorry to hear from the Noble
Lord and the Hon. Member who had just sat down that
they considered that it would be impracticable to devise
a plan for securing the attendance on these Committees
of Members possessing local knowledge. He had here-
tofore seen great benefit derived from the attendance on
railway Bill Committees of Members possessing local
knowledge. No doubt inconvenience might arise in some
cases. In the case of a long line, for instance, such as
that from London to York, he admitted that it might be
difficult to secure the attendance of Members possessed
of local knowledge, and, at the same time, to provide
for the fair representation of all the local interests, but
that case was an exception. The Board of Trade had
reported on three groups of railway s—one in Kent—.
another in Yorkshire—and another in Northumberland.
Now, as to these three groups, no difficulty could
wise. He did not see why they should not have the ad-
vantage of the attendance of Members possessed of local
knowledge upon those Committees, and there could be
no difficulty an selecting them, so as to secure a fair re-
presentation of local interests. He did not see why the
Committee of Selection should not select six Members
possessed of local knowledge from the Speaker's list,
and five impartial Members; they would thus obtain the
advantages of both plans. He did not think that eleven
Members were too great to attend on a Railway Com-
mute. They did not sit judicially on Railway Commit-
tees. No one had been a greater advocate than himself
for the'reduction of the numbers of a Committee which
sat judicially. He had always advocated the reduction
of the number of Members on Election Committees, as
increasing the responsibility of the Members, for he was
convinced that when Committees eat judicially, the
smaller the number of Members the better the tribunal.
The investigation with which the Committee would be
entrusted was of the most extensive nature. For him-
self, he should feel great difficulty in deciding on the
merits of the whole of the South Devon, or of the Kent
lines, being totally without the statistical or local know-
ledge that would be required.
Mr. M. MILNES said it was of the highest import-
ance that a due deference should be felt by the public for
the decisions of the Committees of that House. The
choice laid between the Committee proposed by the Go-
vernment or one composed of the local Members. The
great object of the Government would be to select five
Gentlemen, who should be entirely ignorant of all parts
of the subject.—(Laughter.) On the other hand, there
might be five Gentlemen who were the best informed on
the question, but then they would be most liable
to the influence of local prejudices. On striking a fair
balance of these difficulties, ho thought, to secure an im-
partial decision, their best course was to pass the reso-
lution proposed by the Government.

Sir JOHN EASTHOPE said, that formerly he had
been in a railway Committee that sat sixty days ; and in
consequence of the system which existed, they were ob-
liged, under the pressure of interests which they could
not resent, often to vote against their own conscience
—(Laughter.) He was more ashamed of the fact than
the avowal ; but no consideration—nothing, in fact, but
compulsion, would induce him to plp.ce himself in the
same situation again. In that case, local interest was
r?g
. would
found to be destructive of public right.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought that the opinion of the
Hon. Member who had just spoken was ectitled. to
ever
rat alwaysbut
constitutingfelt
an.o
judicialth i
tri-
bunal guided by no interested. or
.pecuniary Motives.
satisfy the
submitted fur their sanction ; and if they were obliged
He congratulated the House in having this resolution
to divide, he hoped there would be an overwhelming
majority in its favour. The scheme proposed by the
resolution was the only method practicable and eon•
e and shaied, that
never
saw he
theha d
served sistent with justice.
Mr. PAKINGTON, in reference to what had fallen
from
ee
rtt
beer
lastfor
year, Chester,
interests of the landowners better attended to.
sdt the
on Hon.
a c 0
rat
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
gallery was cleared for a division, but none took lace,
the amendment having been negatived without a division'
Mr. ENTWISLE said he disregarded those
against
s.
which had been launched out so abundantly
railway shareholders and speculators, who were en-
gaged in honest commercial enterprise. The Hon.
Member was proceeding to address the House upon a
former resolution, when
'The SPEAKER interfered, and said, such a course
was irregular.
The HON. MEMBER then went on to say, that the House
should clearly explain its opinion as to the propriety of
Members serving on Committees who were interested

in 1, cal spreulatlotr. The House should clearly state
whether Members who were in any degree interested in
railways should be Members of a Select Committee or
not ; and if its opinion were in the affirmative, it was
only fair that they should ix) protected from reproach.
In his opinion, the bare fact of a Member having an in-
terest in a line of railway should not disentitle him
from sitting on a Committee.
Mr. BERNAL did not think the wording of the reso-
lution sufficiently clear and explicit, because it was im-
possible for any one to say, according to the wording of
the resolution, when a Member was entitled to sit on
theie Committees or•wben he was not.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET defended the word-
in:; of the resolution.
Mr. HUME thought no individual should sit on a
Committee where his private or personal inter.* was