The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-30 00:00:00

Mr. WYSE said that he did not mean that the House
should stand to the principle of the Bill by consenting to
the second reading.
Mr. GLADSTONE said on that under Standing he
would not oppose the second reading. • - •
The Bill was then read a second time and ord:•red to
be committed to-morrow.

. -
safely wive or grant any land, money, or other property'
1O or for the permanent support of any Catholic priest*
house of worship, school, or other jharitable founda-
tion in Trehtnd, Ittbject, as such donations must be, to
serious ihmhts .and difficulties. That such donations
would pr,,bll,ly he diverted to Protestant institu-
tions, (I,r.‘etly contrnry to the donor's . wish

CONSOLIDATED' FUND BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee and was ordered
to be reported to-morrow. '
WOODS AND FORESTS ACCOUNT BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of LINCOLN this Bill
passed through Committee.

a prospe(:i sufficiently disparaging to deter any
rational person from making 'such donations." Then,
with respect to the institution of the Board of Charita-
ble Trusts Commissioners, Mr. Scully went on to
observe that this Commission deserved notice, in conse-
quence -of its. alertness in hunting down catholic

GRAND CANAL (IRELAND) BILL. charities. It was now attempted te remedy these
'
. and a let was new brought in to put beyond nil
The House then went through Committee on this Bill. am ,respect
to
The Customs (New South Wales Bill) also -wend- manner of. doubt the law- vv, charitable
and to provide for the building of
through Committee.—Report to-morrow. •
and to provide for the safe
' bequests in Ireland,
The report on the Slaughtering of -Horses Bill was Roman Catholic chapels,
brought up and received, ' • •
the legalits of the trusts.. There
endowments of priests, so that henceforth there should.
The report on the Protection of Purchasers (Ireland) is be a question as to .
Bill was brought up. was, therefore, a complete remedy for the existing
The report was agreed to, after a short sliee4'- rission- defects.. They proposed to abrogate the existing board,
COURTS OF COMMON LAW PIIOCESS (IRE- for the purpose of substituting a new one. They hal
LAND) BILL, proposed to place three legal persona upon that, Corn-
The report was received on this Bill, and the Bill was mission, the first of whomw
• as to have been the Lord
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
- Chancellor. It u as, how ever, objected that;, thee :Lord
CHARITABLE DONATIONS AN]) BEQUESTS Chancellor must nece-sardy he • a Protestant; and
(IRELAND) BILL. yielding 'to that
Sir J. GRAHAM in proposing the second reading of verment omitted the rame of • the Lord
ebjection. Her Majesty's Go-
this Bill stated that he would shortly advert- to the sir- Chancellor. They, hoWever, retained the Master
einustances under which the measure bad been brought of the Rolls and the Chief Baron of the Court of Excite-
foeward. It-was impossible to conceive any-subject of quer, to both of which offices Roman CathOlies were eh-
greater national importance than this. There were three gible. There was nothing sectarian, therefore, in the
principal defects in the existing Act. The first was the appointment of that. part of the hoard. In the original
constitution of the board, and the next was thatofchang- Bill they had not placed the name of a Judge of the
ing the uses pointed out by testators on the ground of Perogative Court, hut a Biretta Catholic Member of
expediency ; and the third defect was the absence of the Parliament bad submits ttl is was a great omission,
power to endow with land in perpetuity. It was to re- and the Judge of the Prerogat i Court was, in CORSO.
medy these defects that the present Bill was introduced. quence, placed amongst the members of the Commis-
There were three principal objections to the law as it at sion. Having yielded to !hat suggestion they were now
present stood, which the present measure would remove. taunted on the second reading of this MI, for placing
In the fourteenth clause of the Bill there was a limits- upon the Pew Commission a man whose appointment
lion for the first time introduced with regard to the was made by the Primate of Ireland. But this appoint-
tivue of giving property, landed or personal, which should went had not been made by the Primate of Ireland, for,
be within a short time antecedent to the death of the tes- on the last occasion of its being vacant, the Lord Primate
tacos or donor. It was a question of public and general of Ireland placed the appointment in • the hands of the
policy,
and was quite open to discussion. He was of Government. Ile could not help alluding to this circum-
opinion that some such limitation was necessary, consi- stance, as he thought it was indicative of the spirit. in
dering the influence that might be used over dying per- which the Government were now opposed, the two
sons. Now he was bound to state, that he could only an- offices, the occupants of which were to compose a portion
ticipate one objection to the measure, as not being lof this Board, were, a . few years ago, Roman
entirely satisfactory to Roman Catholics, and that I Catholics, viz., Baron Rolfe and Sir Michael ologblin.
objection, he was told, arose from a difficulty peculiar to I There were to he ten other Commissioners, and .out of
the form of the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical jurisdice that number five were to be Roman Catholics. Now, he
Lion, which was this—that the stains of any person in would ask whether it was not disheartening to be
holy orders could not be decided by a person not himself met in the spirit which had been evinced that evening?
an ecclesiastic. He might, in passing, observe that- it in the course of this debate. reference, had been made to
was open to the discretion of the Crown to select a per- a measure which had been introduced by Lord Welles-
son who, with regard to all the circumstancesof the case, ley, respecting which the Roman Catholic Prelates of
should be the most entitled to the confidence of the Ro- Ireland were consulted. He held in his hand a draft
man Catholic body, and. who would, at the same time, of that measure. It was, first of all submitted, to Die
enjoy the confidence of the Crown. He must also ohs Murray.
serve that the last resort of the board, us it was now to Mr. M: O'FERRALL—OnIy the outline.
be constituted, was not trust-worthy if a dispute arose. 1 Sir It: PEEL said it was quite sufficient if only a
In the law as it stood at present, an appeal was allowed general outline oft he measure had been submitted to Dr.
to the Lord Chancellor, who from the circumstance of Murray, ioordee to enable him to institute a comparison
holding the great seal must necessarily be a Protestant. between that and the present Bill. That Bill was entitled
Under the board, as it was to be now constituted, there must "An Act for providing places of worship for Irish Roman
be one Roth= Catholic dignitary on it, and it was quite Catholic subjects in Ireland, and houses and glebes for
clear that in the course of time either the Master of the the parish priests." Parish priests was the expression
Rolls or the Chief Baron of the Exchequer would be a used throughout the Bill. In the present Bill, when, it
Roman Catholic. This measure was framed in Pee was brought into the House of Lords, the expression
spirit of peace ;it -was framed with regard to the cir- " parish minister" was used. An objection was raised
eumstances of Ireland ; it was not possible to offer any to this, on the ground that " minister" was a term used
endowment to the Roman Catholic clergy, which would Iby Presbyterians only. The Government yielded to that
not be accepted—(Hear,hear)—but it was most desirable etion, and substituted the word " priest." The two
that a provision should,be made to legalise the offerings- Bills were very similar in their character, and yet . her
voluntarily made for the purposes of the Roman Catholic Majesty'e Government were accused of doing grievous
religion. That it might mitigate the discord and asperity wrong by introducing this Bill, and offering an insult to
which unhappily too much prevailed in Ireland he most Ireland, lie could only say, that if Honourable Gen-
earnestly wished. It was tendered in the spirit of peace ' tkmen would • indulge in such imputations Us
—in that spirit be hoped it would be received. He these against the Government, the sooner thew
hoped nothing had. fallen from him to disturb that spirit. abandoned all hopes .of redressing • any griev-
Ile trusted that this measure would form the corner stone ance• the better, for it would be he,.;itr for the Go-
of that temple of peace which his Right Ilon. Friend vernmerit to leave the law as it, stood, than subject
pressed a hope might arise at no distant time, when the themselves to imputations of this hind. The Act of
Queen of England should visit her Irish dominions, and 1834 imposed a limitation with respect to the amount of
appear on her " throw of the West," actuated by feel- property to be granted, It provided that no sum ex-
ings of kindness and benevolenceetowards all her sub- (seeding 200 L, anti no land greater in extent than forty
jects, but in a particular manner towards a generous, a acres, should be voltinla rite granted em the purpose of
gallant, and still a loyal people.—(Cheers.) endowinent, tut it was said that they now imposed new
The question having been put, restrictions, and it was contenilt.d that every person
Mr. M. O'FERRALL said that if this Bill was meant ought to be allowed to make, upon Jima death-bed,' be-
in a spirit of peace anti conciliation, he.must be allowed to quests for Roman Catholic purposes. That' was the
observe that the termshewhich it was conceived were not state of the law as it at present stood. In England any
calculated toproduce that effect. It was a great misfortune grant, to be legal, must be made one year before the tes-
that in every measure introduced with regard to Ireland titer's death. lie would be sorry-to see that law altered,
some clause was introduced which spoiled the spirit of it, They now proposed thaeln Ireland grants for religious
however wise and good it might be. There were clauses purposes should be made three months prior to in this Bill that appeared to him most objectionable. In •the death of the testator. ,- If they -doubted the
Ireland the greatest feeling existed against everything policy of that, they could alter its in Committee that touched the Catholic Church. In:Engand the case It was entirely a 'question 'of public policy.
was. different ; but in Ireland they were imbued with the lie believed that the. Bill, which was seen by Dr.• Mut-
deepest jealousy. The clause made the; Commissioners ray, contained the same 'provisions, and no objection
removable at the pleasure of the Crown,. which he was urged to it their, no objection was urged to the rule
thought extremely objectionable. The- Right Hon, that three te.kmtitims must .elapse before the death of the
-Baronet had stated that it would be the pleasure of the parts' Imegeeathing land, in order to make the bequest
valii. But it was said that some rule of the Roman-Ca-
Crown to appoint prelates of the Catholic Church, but
it might be the pleasure of the Crown not to appoint tholic Church made it impossible to commit the consi-
prelates of the Catholic Church ; anti if they were deration of matters affecting the spiritualities of the
to appoint Catholic laymen, the decisions of Church to any lay tribunal, that it was absolutely neees-
the board would not 'be. received - by the nary to reserve the consideration of spiritual matters to
bishops. lie objected also to - the-constitution of the tribunals exclusively ecclesiastical, Buethis Bill did not
board, which was to consist of eight Protestants and relate to spiritual matters requiring the cognisance of as
five Catholics. The Bill was by no means a new
exclusively,%lieh theecelt tribunalsiastica
ecclesiastical tribunal. - The matters, in re
-
measure. measure. In 1824 Lord Castlereagh had been in cor-
was to meet and adjudge,
respondence with the Catholic hierarchy on the subject. might be decided without the violation of any principle
The measure which was then proposed was much supe- of the Catholic faith. But his first answer to the objec-
tion was,, that there was nothing in the Bill which im-
rior to -the present Bill, for it proposed to erect- the
Catholic elergpinto corporations, giving them the Hunt posed on the Crown any obligation -to constitute an tx-
of succession. He objected to the' Bill because it WRS elusively lay tribunal. The •Crown would have an ups
the first attempt at legislative interference with the portunitv of' appointing- Churchmen to it. His ether
Catholic religion, and he would recommend tbe Govern- answer was, that this Bill was in contemplation in 1834,
merit to pass those clauses only which related to the that it then underwent consideration by the , Ro-
charitable boards, and to leave those clauses which in man Catholic Prelates. whose assent was given
terfered with the Catholic religion to another session ; to it, though it (lid devolve on a tribunal
for the Government had had ample time to consider the composed 'exclusively of laymen, the considcre-
effect of the measure, while the parties interested had tion of the very same questions involved in this till,
not had sufficient time afforded to consider what would (The Right Hon. Baronet read an extract from the Bill,
be the effect of the Bill.—(Cheers.) .•` regulating the Visiting Board of the College of May.
Lord ELIOT said the Government had reason to be- nooth.) lie trusted be had now given an explanation
lieve the measure would be acceptable to the- Roman sufficient to satisfy the House at least of the intention of
Catholic clergy of Ireland. The Bill-.had been sup- her Majesty's Government with respect to this measure,
ported by Lord Normanby, whom the Hon. Gentlemen which, as his Right Hon. Friend had said, and truly said,
had often said was dear to the Catholics of Ireland.-- was brought in not for the purpose of conciliating public
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the favour by any undue or unwise concession, but for the
observations of a Right Rev. Prelate in the other House, purpose of doing that which was just, and doing it in a
and stated that they were of a sectarian character, and eoncifiatery an friendly spirit. The object of the Bill
friendly to the perpetuation of the penal -statutes; but, as was to do justice ; and the motive of the Bill was to be
he (Lord Eliot) apprehended, they were only directed found in a friendly and conciliatory spirit. It -rested
towards the support of the Established Church, and not with the Hon. Gentlemen opposite to determine bOW far
in disparagement. of any religion- whatever. The fact they would, acting from the Impulse of their own' feel-
was the Bill was permissive, and not compulsory logs, and following the dictates of their own judgment-,
and _calculated to prevent concealment or mis- offer opposition to the passing of this Bill- •It was pos-
appropriation of charitable funds. In France, Aus- sible that such an opposition, strenuously directed
.tria, and Belgium, no bequest could be accepted by against the measure. might at that period of the session
the Roman Catholic body without the cognizance and prevail. At-any rate, whether that opposition prevailed
consent of the Government of these countries. In or succeeded, he hoped, during the recess, the popular
France a curate could not be appointed without the con- discontent in Ireland would not he inflamed by charging
sent of the Government. After the assurance of his Right her Majesty's Government with unwillingness to listen
Hon. Friend he thought the feelings of jealousy which to real complaints, and with a want of a desire to des
were expressed regarding interference with Roman that which it considered to he justice.—(Hear, hear.)
Catholics,. entirely unfounded. •He did hope -at any rate that, in the course
Mr. BELLEW thought the measure was brought of the next session the Government would not
forward in a conciliatory awl kind spirit, but the Go- be taunted with the imputation that it had permitted sit-
vornment had not consulted those-who could give them tention to the business of England. and Scotland to oc-
the most useful and PraCtiCalinfOrMatiOn On the subject, copy it exclusively, and that it had neglected Ireland ;
The'Government was placed in an unfortunate position that neglect being used as an additional argument for a
—they had no Catholic in the Government,' and their repeal of the union.—(hear, hear.) He did trust that
words and actions were so much opposed, that the the lion, Gentlemen opposite who asked them what they
Roman Catholic body were naturally suspicious of any should do to prevent their being influenced by this cla-
measure they brought forward. The Bill contained, in mour for repeal, would, in their explanations to their
his (Mr. Bellew s) opinion, both insult and injustice to constituents, have the goodness to explain fairly that time
Ireland. Roman Catholics were always jealous of State measure the Government had produced was it measure
interference with their creed. Witness, for instance, which permitted voluntary endowments to the Roman
the education question in France and in Belgium, and Catholic Church—which permitted voluntary subscrip-
of the junta iu Gibraltar.- The Noble Lord said that a• tions to be ipplied to the building of Roman Catholic
curate could not be appointed in France without places of worship—which rendered it impossible heoe-
the cognizance and consent of the GovernMent, but after to interfere with such bequests, and which proposed
they. were very different cases indeed. Frince paid to constitute a commission of regulation, composed of
the Roman Catholio clergy, but England did not. Roman Catholics and Protestants in equal numbers.
If the Government expected co-operation from the proving that the principle of the measure :was one of
Catholic body, they must recognise the authority of equality. And his belief was, that, if they would permit
the Catholic clergy in Ireland—it was too powerful the measure to pass it . would be hailed by the uninflu-
to be dealt with on merely "tolerative" principles. Ile enced and reasonable part of the peopkof Ireland as a
would not vote against the second reading, but at the measure of very great advantage, arid indicative of the
same time would be very desirous for the postponement spirit in which her Majesty's Government was disposed
of the Bill, to legislate with regard to that country,—(Hear,)
The Earl of ARUNDEL said he thought the Bill Mr. SHEIL hoped that, as the Right Hon. Gentleman
evinced a desire to conciliate the Roman Catholics of Ire• had not had the opportunity(i( consulting those who were
land on the part of her Majesty's Government, and he the best able to give him adiiee on this important tees-
should therefore support it. He did not think the ques- sure, he would permit them to make such comments upon
dons which would come before the Commissioners would it es their duty required them to' offer. He had waited
in any degree affect or interfere with the faith of the with anxiety for the conclusion of the Right Hon. Bee-
people, ronet's speech, to bear what reason he would suggest
Sir R. PEEL said he had heard with great satisfac- for not having consulted a single &man Catholic cede--
don the speech of the Noble Lord—a speech creditable siastie uponettde measure.—(llear, hear.) .But he had
to him, and just towards the intentions of her Majesty 'e listened in. vain. To this point the ,Right Hon. Gentle-
Government. Her • Majesty's Government were ulna- man lied not thought it judicious :or necessary to refer,
enced by no desire whatever in bringing this measure He had heard with much ,Surprise the autho-
forward, excepting a wish to correct that which they city of the honourable Member for Waterford
understood had been complained of by the Roman Ca- (Sir IL Winston Barron) quoted by the Noble-
gp-
tholic population of Ireland, and to correct a defect in Lord, the Secretary. for Ireland, as the round for a
the present law in respect to Roman Catholic be- poiriting the Judge of the Prerogative
Court as one. of quests. (Hear, hear.) He thought- be could the Commission. Ile (Mr. Shell) did not wish to throw
give the, Noble Lord an explanation with respect any reflection' on time lion. Member for Waterford he
to this measure, which would confirm the Noble had a right to give an Opinion; and la, gave it, lie had
Lord in the impression which he had expressed paid great attention* to the subject, but he was not a with that manliness and frankness so consistent in hirer lawyer, He'did not bear In mind, that the Judge of -the
on all occasions, whenever he was called on to give an' Prerogative Court must necessarily be, u Protestant,.
opinion ; and so consistent also with the real facts of this The Bill was so framed that, de facto for many years to
case. He (Sir R. Peel) must also say, without wishing
come, the Protestants must have the majority on this
,
to provoke any controversial spirit, that he had heard hoard. It was quite true, that the offices of Chief
with regret, which equalled the satisfaction with which Baron and that of the Master of, the Rolls might. be.
he had heard the speech of the- Noble Lord, the tenor of filled by Roman Catholics. Theyhad been so held, end
some of the speeches made on the other side of the it was true that it might so oiteur again—whether it Hatay
House. Surely they might consider the bearing and I likely to occur during the administration of the Itseht
intention of this measure without provoking another llon Cautlema-n, he could not see far enough inre2,7he
debate on time appointment of Mr. O'Driscoll. 'Sure] it futurel to' f retel. But they asked this—how would. thetill
was not necessary to refer in a debate on a Bill of this operate for the present ? It was so framed sis Dive
°
sort, to the appointment of a law officer in Ireland. A a-majOrity on the board to Protestants for a Co.nsider.bable-
reference to. such matteemkin bite opinion, tended to number of years.
show the spirit in which thecOmments were made. It by the Right Hon. laVrho'riv
'was said that they had no .knOWledgezastheitsesocrtarlyt
our :staattlem,mttitleadi
e whatever of' the three-fourths of the property to he nlanng,ed by this
feelings of the Roman Catholic population of Ireland ; board that three-fourths of the property. held under
With respect to the existing s:
or its amendut charitable be uests Why,- •he' thoright the. •
it 1 • q Ireland, • was Catholic property..
- • - ascertain O ,Now that fact, as stated be the Government itself, being-
arnedivrefu7litike teo' -of - the Roman -Catholic: t beyond dispute, was it not natural. that they shouldi
obpodinyionisn
IL''''publication which had inquire- of them. why they so gratuitous's),
received the sanction of the .Roman- Catholic Aseo end unnecessarily 'placed' a majority of Protestemee
a
reervimits
icalawtyioetrt_.• Thatinan publication was written- by great upon that board ? What reason had 'they
with st deservedlhigh reputation,- The for it, except that principle which 'seemed to
ao, but the.
publication had a. great circulation, anti was suppeesd to , every. iestitution Ireland—the spirit of Protestaat
contain, in the fullest manner, the objections felt by the eseteelancy, Ifo did. net say that it was
MeatsßoneenanCritwolsiewbhoidcy4 iantfeicre4adn.Lwtiteihim
.sg
,fll,to Begeollone Goole:min remit „feel that the abjection wae-
tlimke'iti'ihaajotrwitl3-yitoillf:.elfle .bl'oafttlirlhi)e'le:rlotretastailinttfl;
subjects. In 'the(
§t4 of the likw -'" uct pilopesty
nimme adminis
_vaunt was , tits Cohen lie bu,'9c
tend by the board Wats
satutriti"..
1 .le would just read the expressioiWsiel 'Catholic'.
thin to the Judge of the Prerogative Court. Ile knew*
' Let 1e -► not suppose that he had any objee-
nwa-emree mwaadsewei _to respect to Roman
use
knownorby tAoit.liSocnt.ten'tilegue;enntite:pnpaCtisitA'-AT'; bun well, anti he was a man of the highest talent find
was stated in that publication, that "no person can st vietest integrity. He would tell them an instance