The Sun.
London, England, 1821-06-27 00:00:00

JAMES HATFIELD.

Mr. WILLIAMS presented a Petition from an insane per-
son named Hatfield, confined in Bethlem Hospital on a charge
of High Treason,'for having attemptedin 1800, to shoot his late
Majesty. The Petitioner complained that he had been removed
from his former to his present place of confinement, where he
suffered unnecessary rigour. The Hon. Member made several
observations in support of the Petitioner, but added he was
satisfied no blame was to he imputed to his Majesty's Govern-
ment.—Ordered to lie on the table.

The Mohair Bounties Bill went through a,Committee, and
the Report was ordered to be. received this day.
The Captured Slave Bill was read a-second time, after a few
words from Mr. \VARRE and from Mr. ARBUTHNOT in an-
swer.—The Bill was ordered to be committed on Thursday.

Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a from Sam:Fl:‘,..iaLer,
a Brewer in Westminster, complaining of some individual
grievance under the Excise Laws.---The Petition appealed to
be informal in its prayer, and the Hon. Member therefore
withdrew it.

Mr. JOHNSON, from the Office of the Chief,Secretary of Ire-
land, presented certain papers relating to the orders of the Court
of Exchequer in Ireland.
The Lagan Spirit Duties' Bill went through a Committee.
The Isle of Man Trade Bill was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed this day.
The Hops Exportation Drawback Bill was read a second
time, and.ordered to be committed this day.
The same course was taken with the Stock Cancelling Bill.
IRISH REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.

The CHANCELLOR of the -EXCHEQtrER moved the
'Ord reading of the Irish Revenue Inquiry Bill.
'Mr. DENMAN opposed the Appointment of Commission-
ers under the• Bill. He had no objection lb the first Commis-
sioner appointed by the Rill. That Gentleman was the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade (Mr. Robinson), and. he (Mr. D.)
was quite satisfied with the appointment. He had however a
strong objection, in principle, to the appointment of Members
of the House to offices of emolument. He thOught such ap-
pointments contrary to the Letter of the Act of Settlement. The
observation that the holding of office would not affect the minds
of Honourable Members, went in fact to repeal the Law. If
the remark was true that the Government was opposed because
its opponents were desirous of office, it was no unfair conclu-
sion that the Government was supported by those who desired
to retain their offices. The opinion itself became influenced by
the .ernolument of office, however sincere might be the motives
of the Member • and no man was supposed to depart from the
ordinary principles of human nature. With respect to the case
before the Hbuse, he really thought the salary itself took away
from the' weight of the respectable personal character of the
Commissioner. The Hon. and Learned Member here made
some legal references to chew the inzapc.±v 'of persons holding
offices by appointment of the Crown to sit in the House of Com-
mons. He should therefore move, as an amendment, that no
Member of the Ho-Use should receive any salary as a Commis-
sioner under the preSent Act ; and to exclude all the worils
which were repugnant to the meaning of this Amendment.--
His object was to retain the principle of the law, and to pursue
the question of Reform into the quarters of the enemy.
Mr. 0 811 0 i :SE seconded the Amendment

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the
strength of the argument adduced by the Hon. and Learned
Member depended upon the fact, that the Commissioners were
appointed by the Crown. But the Commissioners were ap-
pointed by Parliament, and the emolument was also paid b;
Parliament, although the Crown had the power of nomination,
in case of the death or resignation of a Commissioner. The
Honourable and Learned. Member forgot; that in either of
those cases the Crown could not nominate a Member of Parlia
ment to the vacancy; and the Hon. and Learned Member had
therefore completely failed in bringing his argument within the
letter or the spirit of his legal references. There was therefore
an end of the general argument. Its particular application
would deprive the Public of one of the mast useful Members of
the Commission. . • '
Mr. HOBHOUSE denied that the argument of his Hon. and
Learned Friend had been answered. • The country was by this
time pretty well convinced that it was the duty, or at least the
practice of the House, to obey the Minister. PerSonal eulogy
was out of the question. The argumeni applied, whether the
Member was the worst or the best man in the world, As to in-
fluence having no effect upon Parliamentary conduct, the
statement was a perfect insult to common sense. - •
Mr. SMYTH approved the • principle of -the Dill, and the
appointment of Commissioners with salaries. It was an aris-
tocratical idea to require the exertion of talent, without emolu-
ment in return. • •
Mr. S. RICE admitted the justice of the general principle
laid down by
.his Hon. Friend (Mr. Denman); but he thought
the present situation of Ireland warranted a departure from
that general principle. Ireland had become a perfect Augean
stable through the misgovernment of Ireland; .and an nide-
pen dent Commission was necessary to dete4 great abuses; and
to punish eminent delinquents. • fle approved of the Commis-
sioners being Members of the House, • in order that they might
be called to account for their conduct.
Mr. D. BROWNE defended the Government of Ireland
against the observation of the last S‘iertker comparing that
Government to an Augean stable. I. department of the
Excise was as pure as that of England.
Mr. SCARLETT thought the character of the House would
stand higher with the people of England, if it retained from
granting any of the public money to its own Members. The
eulogium on the individual (Mr.F. Lewis) he had no doubt was
deserved ; but tilt seine -eulogiurn would be pronounced en :any

other Honourable Member nominated by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. The most objectionable mode of appointment was
that caused by a majority of the House of Commons. The
French Assembly lost its character with the people by appoint-
ing its. own Members to office. He really preferred that the
appointment should'be with the Crown;as the ministers would
then be responsible. He should, however, support the amend-
ment.

Mr. SMYTH explained.
Mr. RICE also explained.—lle had no wish to cast any im-
putation upon the Individual at the head of the public depart-
ment of Ireland.

Lord A. HAMILTON here asked a question respecting the
intended course of the Orders of the Day.
The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXCHEQUER answered
across the table ; but in &Limy a tone of voice, that the 'sub-
stance of it could not be heard.

• Mr: DENMAN shortly rePlied.—He agreed that the public
business could not be performed without the liberal pay--
if:ern of its Officers. He objected only to ;their votiog in
the House-of Commons. He trusted the Bill would be print,
cd, in order that the House Might be enabled to consider its
. . . .
pt ric:aiv:ionsf
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER thought it
unnecessary that the Bill should be printed.--rt would lead to
Mr. , DENMAN, then. proposed a clause prohibiting. any
Member of the House fiom receiving payment as Coinraissioner
under the Bill.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
adoption of the clause would destroy the principle which the
House had already agreed to, and would render the Bill nu-
gatory.
Mr. DENMAN then withdrew his former Amendment, and
said he should take the sense of the House on the printing of the
Bill, and should move th% adjournment of the debate until
Tuesday.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided upon Mr. Denman's last Amendment, when there ap-
peared—
For the Amendment - 31
Against it - - - - - 75
Majority - - - —44
The Bill being read a third time,
The question was put " that the Bill should pass."
Lord MILTON said, he thought that at all events the Com-
missioners ought to be persons already holding offices, and
whose time was not sufficiently occupied by their official duties.
Three years ago the House appointed Commissioners for in-
quiring into the abuses of Charities, and declared that no one
of them should receive emolument for their services. He be-
lieved there were 70 persons in the House holding places under
the Crown, and surely some of those might be found with
leisure time sufficient to enable them to perform the labour
of.the Commission. For their present salaries, he was assured,
they did little or nothing. Besides, he thought a salary in
prospect was much more dangerous in principle than a salary
in advance. The Noble Ford then, concluded by moving a
clause similar in effect to that which had been moved by Mr.
Denman, incapacitating the Members of the Commission from
receiving salaries for their labour.

The House immediately divided, when there appeared—
For the Clause - - - - 36
Against it - - - 81
Majority - —46
MR. OWEN'S PLAN.

Mr. MAXWELL rose to make his motion for
the appointment of a Commission to examine into
the expediency of Legislative Encouragement of
the New Lanark arrangements for the benefit of
the labourin classes. lie observed that it was
painful to contemplate famine and tattered rai-
ment in the midst of abundance, without exclaim-
ing with an intelligent Frenchwoman on following
the modern Brennus through Switzerland,." Les
montagnes furent verdoyantes]comme autrefois,
les prairies florissantes comme jadis, le cceur
d'homme seul pourquoi n'etoit it qu'un desert ?"
His object, however, was not to expose the tot-
tering state of public credit, or the unjust gains
of the fund-holder and money-lender, but to de-
scribe the condition of the manufacturing la-
bourer, and to enforce the necessity of trying
some experiment for his relief. Born in some
hamlet, whose green common was only separated
from his father's cottage, the radical of the
present day was once the affectionate child
that watched the little property of his parents,
or carried with joyous promptitude to the neigh-
bouring market the earnings of honest frugality,
and the refuge store of grey hairs against the hu-
miliation of a parochial pittance. But the wise
provision of wiser Legislators than those who had
for years ruled this Empire, was swindled by
Commissioners and Attorneys from the dotage of
an aged sire, and the benevolent entail of ages
was broken under the countenance of those
whose judgment and wealth ought to have op-
posed so unwarrantable a barter. No longer the
little liampden of his village rights, the freeborn
workman of the parish, and the independent
artizan of his own fortune,hecame the servile la-
bourer of his wealthier neighbour, and lost his
liberty with his feudal property. But soon the
want of his common made his cottage less advan-
tageous than the farmer's offices, and he sought
the roof of his employer as a cheaper residence.
The restriction on cash, payments long before
rendering the value of money 30 per cent. less
than its nominal worth, made it the interest of
the farmer to give him paper wages instead of
food and clothing ; he was sent from the house of
his employer to that home, which the meadow no
more gladdened and maintained. No longer able
to appear in the clean and decent habiliments
with which his association of respectability was
wedded—no trace of those scenes which con-
stituted the happiness of early life, and
brought back the memory of those with whom
his fondest recollections were indelibly en-
graved, he flew from the disfigured prospect,
and sought obscurity in the crowded districts
of trade, to withdraw from the observation of
others w hat he could not banish from himself.
But here his calamities were but for a time
mitigated, for soon the taxes carried the inge-
nuity of man into new experiments, and artificial
labour escaping from some of those burdens to
which was subject, reduced his paper wages
to the lowest rate at w hich life could be main-
tained ; his employer must reduce his wages to
the level of machinery, and the steam-loom w ork-
ing in all the elasticity of lighter burdens, be-
came the regulator of the value of his industrY.
Pressed upon by famine and indignation, he com-
bines.against his master, and joins his comrades
in an effort to improve their circumstances. But
his master is a Senator, and shows him that al-
though he has only followed the example of his
employer, that a poor imitation of a rich prac-
tice may and showers down from his
Cornish be
Boriolegati
ulgllhe inequitable Combination

Laws. In despair at what he feels to be initts•
tice in the fountains of law, he endeavours to re-
dress his own grievances, and to bring back the
means of subsisting his family. Seized in--the
act of detnolishing a frame or a
.steam-loomelle
is carried to gaol and immured with the thief and
the robber. After lingering for months, he is
perhaps liberated—hut -to what ? To find .his
wife the
.beggar at the door of the overseer—hie
sons without honesty, and his daughters without
honour. He (Mr. M.) would put it to the min
of feeling, and to the• man of spirit, whether he
was surprised at the meeting of Manchester or
the rebellion of Bonnymuir—whether he did not
think that this man's blood must be liquid flame I
He would ask the most unfeeling Member, the
most frugal guardian of the public purse, if some
step should not be taken to rescue this wretched
being' from the hell into which his moral and
physical existence had been placed by circum-
stances over which he had littleornocoutroul ? and
he implored him to assist in restoringsuch a
what-happiness or want of pain it might be possible
tosecure to him. Mr. Owen told them he could
improve such a man's condition, and save-others
from his sad career, arid appealed to his own
establishment. Should they wait until his-organs
of belief are fashioned by hypocrisy into the af-
fected dimensions of their own, before they per:-
mitted him to bring that Radical's mind into the
calm and ,unavenging temper into which alone
heavenly feelings and celestial inspirations-could
ever enter ? . Should they delay giving ease and
comfort to the deranged orders of society, be-
cause Mr. Owen's theories differed frorn , their
own ? Or should they hesitate to. try any expe-
riment which had humanity for its basis ?`Should
they allow a machine or a horse an advantage
over their fellow-creatures, if they had the ,means
of giving man the preference ? Or shoeld they
seek to make those profits of the rich manufac-
turer, which ought to be the perquisite of his. work -
man, find their true destination ? Should they
force the labourer to pay the profits of retail on
what he might himself produce, or procrastinate a
systein of education which not only inculcated
morality hut enforced its practice, beCinse its
author had theological speculations which they
did not comprehend, although in the full practice
of the decalogue ? But all Mr. Owen's plans
were to be.subordinate to the Bible, and to the
established form of worship which he (Mr-. Max-
well) should ever recommend. He knew no -sub-
stantial foundation of morality, no More attrac-
tive forM and character of the spirit of, the uni-
verse, than what was developed in the New Tes-
tament; and yet he believed. that he was pro-
moting Christianity when he supported the s7B-
- of Lancaster, and the practiCe of Mi. 0 wet,,
'because he thought that ignorance and immorality
were. the great obstacles to the practice of the
obligations to our neighbour and to Cisod;-which
the Gospel promulgated. It was in such a view
that he brought forward the present motion, con-
vinced that the working classes had been throWn
into a depression by the introduction of artificial
labour, which'weakened the energies of the coun-
try, and which could not cease, until some chani,e
in the mode of raising the Revenue were effected,
which would either increase the cultivation of the
soil, or substitute the indUstry of man to a greater
extent than at present, to the labour of the horse.
The division of domestic employments might
be improved, and the expences of the workman
diminished, were the poor more able . to know
their true interests, and taught more mutual con-
fidence in each other; 'and surely. if the desire of
intoxica:ion, and of every useless stimules, were
banished, and plain and cheap vesture rendered
popular .by habit and education, much unneces-
sary expence, bad practices and temptation to
vice would be removed from the humbler, but the
most numerous and most valuable portion of the
community. He should not farther detain the
House, but move, " That an humble Address be
presented to his Majesty, that he Will be: gra-
ciously pleased to issue a Commission to visit
'NeW Lanark, to examine the ;condition and
treatment of the working classes in that establish-
ment, and torepOrt on.stich further arranmements
as Mr. .Owen proposes to make for the a.tvantsge
of MatiOracturing 14imitrers, and to assure -Ibis Ma-
jesty that the Ilettae will make gOod the satne:"
He would only add, that if any Hon. Member
conceived the picture which he had drawn too
gloomy, he.raerred him to the list of convictions
—to the Report on Gaols—to the language of
what were called demagogues and the seditious
press—to the spies and standing armies=-to the
admission of the Law. Officers of the Crown,
that transportation is no punishment—of tho2b
who have most studied 'the feelings of _criminals
—that death has little effect on the mass of con-
victs—athe assertions of Ministers as to the in-
crease of blasphemy—and of this being the firit
year of domestic peace.

Mr. DAwsoN said, the plan of Mr. Owen! -had
net been treated with all that attention Nv.1,40-1
any proposition for the improvement of the coun-
try deserved. 'He wished the motion•before th
Hone hid been brought forward at an early
period of the Session. They had now carer:My
examined the Estimates, and voted thtr.t.inppfies.
They had heard an insufficient kepkirt on Po-
reii-,rn Trade, and he wished he could •say they
had heard none on '.4griculturar Distres*A--
(llearl)—ln the Report of the Committee on
Agriculture, which. was tvell written and able,
they had an account. of all the speculations
of every speculative farmer and tradcFmaa
which had been decies repetita in :the public
prints. The sum of the Report waytliat the
firmer must receive less for his produtte, thht th
Lndlord must receive leis rent, and that Ole
shopkeeper must receive less .profas*