The Sun.
London, England, 1821-02-06 00:00:00

GRAMPOUND.

Lortl. J. RUSSELL said, that in inovinl- the second reading-
of the Grarapound Disfranchisement Bill, he had to state, that
it was understood the.,:: would be no opposition made on this
stage, as there would be a public Committee, at which time it
was ir.tended to tzlce the debate on the subject. Tn the mean
Erne it would he printed; and the Bill would then be in pre-
cizeijr the 'same state that it was in last Session.—The Bill was
then read a socfmd time, and ordered to be committed on Mon-
day.next.
bit. J. NEWPORT moved for Copies of all Communica-
tiens between this Government and the Irish Government rela-
'tin to the s;. pis Stationery, particularly-respectiok-Mr.Al-
-- liQng.," and the proceedings adopted thereupon—
Ordered.. • - .
fiTr.'Alde.rman WOOD moved for an account of the amount
of t'•:,.; Starnp E'rti,.,s 'on Fire Insurance Policies paid to Go-
17K to 1821, as far as the same can be mark.

AOR ICULTURE. •
ifir. tiO Ilf seeing the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) in his
place, begi-;•,A to all'; him a question 'of great itn?ortanee to the
interests anu welfare of every class of -iadividuais, on the sub-
ject. of the agricultural distresses. lie wished to know if it
was intended by the Noble Lord, or any of his Colleagues, to
bring forward, n the course of the Session, any motion specifi-
cally relating to, or tending to alleviate,- or remedy_ the =pa-.
ralreied distresses which weiglicduPon the agricultural interests.
•- Lerd fIASTLEItEAGEI assured his Honourable .Friend,
that be did not under-rate the importance or the subject, rela-
tive to which he had put this question, and he participated, as
deeply as any on a, in lamenting, the distresses which pressed so
heavily on the ii-griculture of this country, which was the great
- basis of our national wealth. His Horiouratsle Friend's ques-
tion, however; was similar to one that had alreadi been put,
and to which ht had answered, that it was not in fife intention
of his Majesty's Miaisteri to:bring forwf.rd any specific motion,
on the subject. As he had then stated, it appeared to him that
the distresses did not arise froth the state Of *the law; in which
case a specific remedy niiisht easily be provided. At the same
time, if it appeared that it would be more grateful to the minds
of the Country and to the 'louse, to ,institute an inquiry into
the cause of the evils, he would most-cheerfully give it his most
cordial support and countenance.. lie should, however, feel it
his duty, before the inquiry was gor,.e into, to make himself
dearly understood, as otherwise much injury be done to
the Country- from their going into the Committee with a mis-
understanding of each other's intentiOns and.-views. It would
he nlost requisite that the Country sliouldunderstand that'there
did not exist any reasonable expectation of being Whit to pro-
vide a remedy for evils,_ which were dependent on causes beyond
the controul of the. Legislature of the Country. . When the
motion for a Committee was made, it would be more proper

.
that he should explain his c..vn views On the subject, and the
guards with which he should desire to go into the Committee.
Mr. GOOCH then said, that after the answer which the
Noble Lord had beei pleased to make, he should feel it to b.:
his dot-,=, if no non.2lembernrore competent to the task should
come forward, to bring the matte: before the Houn at an
early period,
CONDUCT-OF MINISTERS.-

The Maritreis-of TA VT-STOCK in-rising pursuant
to notic'e,,to move a Resolution expressive of the
opinion of that Howse; on---the measures—which
had lately agitated the country, confessed that
he had never felt so much his incapacity to do
justice to any question which he had ever-had the
honour of briuging ,before that house. The dis-
cussion, however, which had taken place on the
subject in the country, -and within these few
days in that House:, left him but little to say.
And after these discussions he really thought
there was,nothing more wanted than a•ltesolution
of that House, expressive of the universal feeling
of the community, from one end of the empire to
the- other.. When he reflected on the wisdom
of that House in passing a former resolution, de-
claring that the late proceedings were 44 deroga-
tory from the dignity of the-Crown and injurious
to the best interests of the Nation,", he could not
help indulging- a confident hope that the house,
-and particularly the Honourable Member for
Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) would look upon the
motion-he-was abont to make as the-necessary
consequence of that Resolution. It did indeed
appedr that that prediction was completely ve-
rified:'. The dignity of the Crown and the inte-
rests of the Country had been .more deeply in-
jured than could have been contemplated. In
adverting to the past, he would abstain, as much
as- possible, from all allusions to what had passed
in the other House. lie would, confine himself
to the conduct of Ministers—conduct which, in:,
every society with which.. he had mingled, he
had found universally and unequivocally censur-
ed. The result of that night's proceedings would
shew whether the feelings of that House were in
unison with those of the Country at large. lie
should not go far back in the history of the
Queen, nor dwell upon the hardships she had
suffered, or attempt to contrast the present con-
duct of her persecutors with their conduct in the
days of her prosperity, when she had the happi-
ness to have a protector on the Throne. This
was all before the public. The Act by which
her name had been struck out -of the Liturgy
had been discussed and decided on by. the House,
and he would not attempt to offer any observa-
tions of his own, which could- only tend to
weaken the able arguments which had been ad-
vanced on all sides, and especially by..a Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wetherell.) He had
been taught from his earliest days to reve-
rence that golden rule of justice which or-
dained, that where there was doubt the accused
ought to have the benefit of it. ; and he thought
that the conduct of the Ministers was not only
unjust, but had been- productive-of the most pure
and unqualified mischief. He could not say that
he regretted the decision of. the House of Com-
mons on this subject. the other night, for he
thought it one of the surest•indications of that_
necessary reform in Parliament, by which alone
the salvation of the country-could be achieved.
He hoped, on this subject, that the table of that
House would soon be so covered with Petitions.
from every parish in the country, as to render it
impossible to resist them, and at length to ren-
der that House the true organ of public opinion
to the Throne, to the total discomfiture of Mini-
sters. He now begged the attention of the
House to the period when a Green Bag was laid
by the Ministers of the Crown before the two
HouSes of Parliament, and -he would ask the
Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh). whether,
when he laid that Bag on'the table of the House,
filled with such disgusting and obscene matter,
he believed that there was evidence of the truth
of the charges therein contained ? If he did not
he
.was guilty •of treason to the Queen and to the
Country. If he did, he was still more guilty ;
for, regardless of the dignity of the Crown and
of the Country, he would have persuaded her to
go back to the scenes of her infamy—possessing
proofs as strong as holy writ, that she had been
guilty of adultery with her menial servant, and
yet desiring that she, should remain with that ser-
vant, under circumstances of • scandal and .dis-
honour to the Crown and the British Parliament.
Let the Noble Lord confess that he tooleno pains
toascertain if the charges in question were founded
on substantial evidence or not ! As the next.step
in the proceedings, he came to the Bill of Pains
and Penalties, where he saw those who had be-
fore stigmatised her as a criminal, acting in the'
capacity of Judge and Juror, and wino had at the
same time a deep interest at stake in the result.
Without going into -the whole question of that
anomalous 'Bill, or attempting to point out all the
difficulties under which her Majesty laboured ill
being forced to contend against it, yet he could
not resist- expressing his horror at the disgustina
details which were every day brought before the
public; and which had inflicted an irreparable
injury on the morals of the public. When the
Bill of Pains and PenaltieS was withdrawn from
the other House. of Parliament, the public most
confidently hoped that the abandonment of the
Bill would set the question} at rest for ever. But,
contrary to this well-grounded -expectation, her
Majesty did not enjoy: the possession of those
rights and privileges to which she was legally en-
titled. But the Noble Lord opposite talked
about technical privileges; and he presumed to
tell the country that he had a right to act as if
the Bill had passed. Of all the doctrines he had
ever heard, that of a right to whisper away the
character of any 'person that bad been acquitted
was the most monstrous. He protested against
this new principle of the Noble Lord, who told
them, that after acquittal he was entitled to act
against an innocent person, as though she were a
convicted criminal. he should adhere to e maxim
of presuming that all were innocent till prayed
guilty. But if• there- was any -line of conduct
more flagrantly unjust than another, it was re-
fusing to acknowledge •the innocence of one who
had been tried. and acquitted. The Noble
Lord said, that the Queen was trying to erect a
great power in the State against the Constitution,
and the prerogatives, of the King ; and yet the
Noble Lord himself proposed, to give her-50,0001.•
per annum, for a provision to sustain her in such

practices. If this were proved against the
Queen, she ought- to be impeached. But this
kind of language was not what Ministers held
before the production of the Bill. They at one
time told them, that either the Bill must pass, or
-the Queen be acquitted- of .cveey charge -against
her; and yet, notwithstanding this assurance to
the country, made by the first Minister in that
, House,-they now found that the Queen was not
treated in the manner that had been held out.—
Was this, he asked, the conduct of Ministers fit
to govern'this nation ? No ; it was the conduct or
men worthy of temporising from day to day upon
the most shallow policy. The time must come
when they would be obliged to - change their
ever-varying course. The present Ministers for
the sake of office had bartered the tranquillity of
the country. They had - done an injury to reli-
gion by introducing a political schism into the
bosom of the Church. For the sake of office
they had brought the Clergy and the Constituted
Authorities into open hostility: They . had
brought about an open breach between the peo-
le and the Parliament. Not the least disgraceful
part of these proceedings was, the use which had
been made.of the King's name—an use which an
honourable or manly mind would not have
stooped to. He now came to the sad and dis-
graceful sequel of the whole. All these acts the
Ministers had obtained their usual sanction to iu
their accustomed overwhelming majority.—
But he was afraid that many of those who
composed that majority had voted against'
their own conviction. Leaving the Noble Lord
inthe, full enjoyment . of power thus acquired,
and which he for one did not envy, he would
Make way for those who would address the
House on this question in a much more effectual
manner than be could. He had endeavoured to
the best, of his powers to draw into a foCus for the
full view of that House, the injustice and impoli-
cy of the late proceedings,.and with these impres-
sions on his mind, and feeling how deeply that
House was involved hi their exposure, he had at-
tempted to bring the conduct of Ministers into
the 'worst light. He could assure the house,
that his object hi doing this was not merely to
take the sense of the House on the subject of the
late proceedings, but to drive the
_present Mini-
sters out of power. And he did not wish this
from the paltry object of putting his own friends
in their places, but from a hope that a change of
men would produce a change of measures. He
had no feelings on the subject of a personal
na-
ture. He felt himself to be so totally unfit for
public business,.that he had always determined
to accept no office under any administration.
Even should his friends come into power to-mor-
row, without attempting in some way or other, to
put the principle of Parliamentary Reform into -
action,. he would not support them. It was of
no consequence to him in what hands the Govern-
ment of the country should fall, so long as the
spirit of. that Government were temperate to-
wards the people. - That the people of this coun-
try deserve well of their rulers, let their late
conduct testify r For his own part he thought
it was- impossible to admire too much - the
good conduct, forbearance, and peaceable be-
haviour, ,C.embieed with their generous and dis-
interested efforts in. behalf of a defenceless.
woman, which the people of this country
had exhibited throughout the .whole of the. late.
fermentation in the public mind. The Noble
Lord opposite (Castlereagh,) had announced his
intention of meeting this motion by the previous
question; but he sincerely trusted thellouse would_
not countenance such a proceeding. The Noble
Marquess then moved, that the Jlouse come to
the following Resolution :—" That
.it is the
opinion of this House, that his Majesty's Minis-
ters, in advising the measure which led to the
late proceedingsagainst the Queen, were not jus-
tified by any political expediency ; and that their
conduct has been productive of consequences-de-
rogatory from the dignity of the Crown, and
injurious to the best interests of the' Country." •
Mr. Lamwros 'seconded the motion. The
Resolution proposed by his Noble Friend had
a tendency which he really loped and believed
would allay the irritation which had been
excited in the minds of the nation, and tend
to restore their confidence in that Constitution,
'which he maintained had been violated from
the commencement to the end of those proceed-
ings adverted to hi the Resolution. The charac-
ter of his Noble Friend, and the attachment which
he knew he had to liberty, were enough to
have induced him to support any motion he
could bring forward, without thinking it necessary
to state any reasons of his own. It now ap-
peared, that with a full knowledge of all the
evidence that was subsequently brought before
the House of Lords, and with the advantage of
a personal interview with Majocci, who was at
Carlton House on the day that the King
died, in the month of February last, the Noble
Lord opposite had stated in his place, that
-her -present Majesty, whom he designated a
high Personage, would be put to no incon-
venience. Such sentiments had the Noble Lord
avowed, and yet the next dispatches from the
Queen at Rome, contained complaints in conse-
quence of the treatment she received. It turned
out subsequently that this expression of kindness
towards her Majesty was only conditional to her
remaining abroad. When she came near Eng-
land, Lord Hutchinson was sent out, by whom he
knew not ; but sent be was by some one, charged
with a message containing a threat of violence, if
she dared to proceed a step further on her way
to this country ; and an offer of 50,0001. per annum.
if she would stop abroad, and 'never take the
mine. .of the royal family of England. They
had endeavoured to prevent her. reappear-
Alice by offering her a bribe to leave the country,
that she might be enabled to return to Italy, and
continue that course so disgraceful and injurious
to the honour of the nation. If they believed her
guilty they ought never to have been willing to
give her 50.0001. to leave the country, as doing
this, was doing all in'their power to make, vice
and immorality triumphant. Ile then described
the coming of the Queen. She had landed at
Dover, and on her advance was greeted with the
acclamations of the people. Nonf; of them had
approached that House with petitions asserting
her guilt or demanding inquiry.-On the contrary,

they had displayed the utmost 'affection aid syrti=
pa thy for her and hatred for her • persecutors.
Under these circumstances it might be asked
what 'state expediency rendered any inquiry ne-
cessary at all ? They had nothing+) prove against
her in the last years of her life, and her vge made
it impossible that any spurious issue could be h9,-
posed upon thecasiititry. He therefore contAded
thapt,m) State expedientty called for*inquirtyl. .Jle
now came to the Bill of Pains and Penalties ; he
did not mean to say,that Bills of Pains and Penal-
ties should in no instance be resorted to ; but
he thought they could, only be justified 'by cir-
cumstances of imperious necessity'. • In the
present case he had shown that nothing of the
kind .existed, and therefore he inferred the mea-
sure coula only have been resorted to in a vin-
dictive spirit of resentment. He then went over
the history of the proceedings with respect to
her Majesty, from the period of her last arrival
in this country, and described Ministers, when
they found their offers rejected, and their threats
despised, to have entered with feelings •of re-
sentment into that inquiry) which had previously
been described to be derogatory to the dignity
of the Crown, and therefore injurious to the best
interests of the country. That inquiry had done
more to relax the morality of the people, and
alienate their affections from their Monarch, than
could have been accomplished by any other means.
.The decent veil which had been before thrown,
as if by, universal-consent, over the frailties of
Royalty, had by the conduct of Ministers been
rudely torn asunder ; the errors of the past- had
been brought to light, and there was scarcely a
Member of the -Royal Family who had not been I
held up to the ridicule of the multitude in pamph-
lets and caricatures, whose Wanderings, but for
the course pursued - against the : Queen, might
have been for ever buried in oblivion. 'lf this
doctrine of recrimination had been acted, upon"
by her, who might have used it most.power-
fully, if she had not, abstained from doing so
in a spirit of forbearance, which he trusted 'the
reject ion of the late Bill would serve to
confirm and strengthen, he verily honeyed
that at this moment the country might have been
reduced to a state of civil dissention. The in-
quiry had deluged the country with details that
ought not to have met the public eye. He would
ask any man who heard him, if he had not been
most anxious to hide from the members of his fa-
mily every newspaper which contained a report
of the proceedings in the House of Lords. And
by what sort of witnesses were the charges sup-
ported ? By waiters, chambermaids, and wretches
of the most abandoned character. In a case
where defective and rotten character was the
principal charge against her Majesty,
why were
they not as careful to inquire into the character
of those witnesses •as to swalloW the tales that
they had told ? Why did they not call as' wit-
nesses those respectable individuals Whohad been
about her Majesty's person at the same time with
those who were examined, and who still re-
mained in her service ? Did they think that
treachery alone- deserved credit ? Did they
think that faitful service would disqualify
from giving honest evidence.? The course pur-
sued had disgusted the country. They were
diseatsted withtheAVi ll_ C WV,
peared those who formed it were employed to
collect evidence for the purpose of accusation,
and not for the discovery of truth. For the
acts of that inquisitorial tribunal. Ministers had
yet to answer for. Every Petition received called
for an inquiry into its proceedings, and. he trust-
ed that it .would soon take place. Be doubted
not the Noble Lord was prepared to contend
that the course which had been' .taken now with
respect to the Queen was more just than that
pursued in 1806. On that question,he should, be
happy to meet the Noble Lord, but that he must
remark was not the question now before the
House, and whatever the proceeding's of 1806
might have been, the people of England would
never be of opinion, that one act of injustice could
be sanctioned by another. For the late proceed-
jugs in the other House of Parliament, he knew
Ministers were not constitutionally responsi.•
own feelings, but they were answerable for .a
We: much as they might be in unison with their
re-
fusing a list of the witnesses ;—for withholding
obstruc-
tion of witnesses, and for procuring _theter-
in
a specification of the charges
;—for
.ference of the German Courts to the Trejudice
of the Queen.
Onefor w
act hich
injus-
tice
committed, the-
the Noble Lord)--
borrow an expression from,
These were features (if he might
parties to it were of stltteersse
isvveerte-edfeecaptulyrerseisnpotTle
i
neces-
sity obliged to sppperadd to it other acts of
tyranny case
• • - • e He held them responsible
and injustice.
for the manner in which the Parliament was pro-
rogued. That seemed to him a serious charge.-
They had advised their Sovereign to dismiss his
first Parliament in a cold and repulsive way,
without thanking them for, the provisiou which
they had made for the maintenance of his Crown
and. dignity, with a liberal, perhaps with a lavish
hand. 'From the Prorogation down to the pre-
sent time, they were answerable for not hav-
ing advised their SoverMgn to , restore the
name of his Consort to the Liturgy after her
acquittal, notwithstanding_he had heard one of
his Majesty's Mittisters-declare that there was no
alternative between the passing of the Billand
the kestoration of her Majesty to all her rights
as Queen Consort. Their conduct he held to be
unjust and inexpedient ; and thus it appeared to
the country at large, as was plainly evinced by
the petitions on their table. These, it had in
vain been attempted to meet by loyal addresses
which} no mention is made of the Queen), atid
in this way it had been attempted to gain some-
thing-like an ,appearance of approbation of the
conduct of Ministers. To the decision of the
House that night he could-not but look with great
anxiety. Asa Reformer, he felt anxious, for,
should it proveunfavourable, it would prove, what
had long been regretted, a want of sympathy on
the part of the House with the people. It would
tend to exasperate the public—it would do away
all hope of relief from Parliament, and urge them
po-ssibly to acts of desperation. With•these views
of theimportance.tif the question, he had great
pleasure in seconding the motion of his No!')!e
Erie ud.

Mr, tAttsunst bore testlmods to the manly
way in which the .Noble„Lord rind the IlonsGen-
tlemau opposite had stated their views to the
House, 'lt seemed to be avowed that the object
in view was to procure Abe removal of his Ma.-
jesty's present 'servants, mid to obtain, as the ne-
cessaryconsequence of their re ass a Reform
in Parhametit. 'lle,was glaskhe ' lects in. view
ha/1-bee e so faitly'sstatedis
•htllNitsts sorryVte No-
ble Lord had decleredhat he had no personal oh-
,iect in View, having come to a determination never
to become a member of any Administration. He
was sorry for that, as any Adminisiration would
be henoured as well as benefited, by being ena-
bled to count the Noble Lord among its
Members. .He (Mr. Bathurst) wished, in as few
words as possible, to follow the course of the
Hon. Gentleman who had seconded the motion,
by =taking a brief view, of the whole subject. lie
called upon the Gentlernm opposite to place
themselves for a moment iu the situation of Mi-
nisters, agreeing with the Hon. Member who
had just sat down, that.the present.case must be
dealt with according to its ovonmerits, mud any
thing wrong in any former proceeding would be
- no justification for the course taken on this occa.;
sion by his Majesty's Government. In the first
place, referring to what had transpired after the
Queen left this country` in 1814, he would ask
NV ere the reports which got into circulation of a
nature so very unimportant that nothing ought to
be'done with respect to them. If any thing was
to be thine, were not Ministers bound, in the first
instance,-to make sonic i*nquiey into the truth of
the reports which had reached them. Such in-
quiry ought undoubtedly to be conducted in a
proper manner. so as not *to be unfair towards
the accused. Ministers had taken as good mea-
sures as any Government could take to get the
inquiry carried on in a proper manner. Persons
of character and local knowledge had been sent
to make those. .inquiries that were necessary,
and persons who had ' no interest whatever
in exaggerating any .thing that they might
hear to the prejudice of the Queen. Their -
exertions would certainly have given greater
satisfaction bad they, after due inquirys. beers
able to repOrt that there was no foundation
for any of the reports- that had been in
circulation. Ministers would then have been
happy to have dismissed the subject from their
thoughts. But, on the contrary, if instead of
that being the case, there had been laid before
Ministers suclett mass of evidence of improper
_conduct as would have called upon any private in-
dividual to take notice of it, and justify him in
taking those steps which the law allowed to vin-
dicate his honour, could Ministers, in the dis-
charge of their duty, have ventured to disregard
it altog,ether. "Obliged to take some notice of it,
they were still reluctant to-disclose the facts of
which they were in possession, *and they had
therefore endeavoured to avert the necessity for
making a public exhibition of the evidence. For
this they had been censured for the offers Which
.they had made to her Majesty, but in his opinion
it was their imperious duty, if possible, to prevent
the proceedings which subsequently became ne-
cessary. • He denied that it was in the. view of
his Honourable Friend ((lie Member for Bram-
.1.: r_l„. _n r. :it, I +h, vi,,,,, ..,r j 1 if ---- --, , ......,,,,A,.."
contemplated inquiry was.prpnounced to-be de-
rogatory to the dignity of .the Crown, and inju-
rious to the. host interests.of the country, that if
the proposition then made to the Queen was re-
jected nothing .was to he done. Because the in-
quiry would be injurious, it did not follow that
no evil consequences could result from taking a
course the opposite of 'that which had been pur-
sued. There was but a choice of evils ;—which-
ever course was taken great inconveniences would
be sustained, and therefore the question after all
on which the House had to decide was this, whe-
ther or not Ministers were justified in bringing
forward that-which they had taken upon them-
selves to prove as a matter of charge. With re-
spect to the evidence brought forward, in this as in
every case of divorce, the
.prosecutor could not •
choose his witnesses, he was of necessity obliged "4
to take such as could speak to the facts charged. f '
In his judgment it was a spatter of grave concern -
to the nation, where the conduct of a Queen wa'
such as materially affected, the honour of the
Crown, that in such a case, she,, the first subject
of the nation, having forgotten her duty, should
be held up to the public as entitled to nll the •
honours =and respect to the station of Queea
Consort., In the negotiations which preceded
the late Parliamentary inquiry it was adVanced a'
a demand on the part of the Queen, that her name os
should be restored, to the Liturgy, unless sorne'.
equivalent were given. An Addressfrom that House* !'
requesting her Majesty to give up that points',
p
would, it was hoped, be in fait considered as an
equivalent. Had her Majesty -been content with'
any thing, short.of a recantation of the. act pre-
viously -performed, the case would not haVot,
been brought before the. public at all, for at 'ffilir'
time the papers sent down to 'Parliament bad
not been opened, and therefore there was no ne-
cessity. for any -public discussion_on the subject,
or any public disclosure of the evidence. But it ~
was 130V47 supposed sylam that Address
,son sss 4.4'-'
t oi
Majesty's
upont. no altern ry
atiVe would seal!!
Government. This was clear
.
from what. the House actually did at a sesb,s•e4
quent -
per iod„-when the trial. had been comb-woe-,
ed. A motion Was made for an Address, calling
on the Croton 'to stay all proceedings., an the
ground that it had been previously declared by
the House, that any inquiry must be " deroga"
tory to the dignity of the Crowss, and injurious
to the best interests of the tn•=tion." The sense
of the HOuse on. this subject was manifested in °
way not to be mistaken, and the motion hadteeti
negatived by a great. majority. He then took
a view of the comparative advantages of pro.
ceeding by a Bill of Pains and Penalties 80
proceeding by Impeachment, and vindicated
the conduct .•of Ministers in preferring the
former. When Honourable Members insisted
that the Queen had a right.to be restored to the
Liturgy, they took a view of the subject very
different from that which had been taken of it
-by the Queen herself. If she were entitled to
be restored to the Liturgy under the Act a .1
Charles the • Second,_ it would never have beet'
their object to &ain it -by Twpciation, The Bill

4
/ ' .

i

1

r

of Pains and li'enalties was't6 be consideieed as
partly judicial, and partly legislatorial. It in-
volved two questions. In the first place, it was
for Parliament to ascertain if the fact charged
were true ; and, in the next, if it were, what
they would do upon it.., In Divorce Bills, evi-
dence Was heard on the second reading of the
Bill, the House then pronounced on it,and the pre-
amble was determined when the Bill came to pass.
He had, then, a right to say in the case of her Ma-
jesty, that if a majority of the House pronounced
for the second reading of the• Bill, they pronounc-
ed on the guilt of the party accused. But it was
said on a former night, that the preamble Con-
tained several allegations, and on some of these
the majority might have voted for the second
reading of the Bill. He must,however, contend,
that tribunal, as far as it could, pronounced the
accused guilty. The charge now made was, that
his Majesty had not ordered the Queen's name •
to be restored to the Liturgy. -But when they H
heard so many complaints on this subject, how
was it that none of those who claimed her resto-
ration, as that to which she was entitled by ac-
quittal, had as vet called for it from the avowed
conviction of her innocence.—(Hear, hear, hear!)
--That some persons might entertain this °pi-
llion he did not deny, but nothing like an
universal feeling that she was innocent had I
ever been expressed by the opponents of Mi-
e visters. With respect to the manner in which
the Parliament had been prorogued, he had
to remark-that that House having postponed
taking up the subject till it could be seen what
was judged proper to be done in the other, had
Only met from time to time for that purpose. It
was understood that the- business of the Session
N;as at an end, unless the Bill of Pains and
e-enalties came down from the other House. The
Areulhers, therefore, had only assembled to know
the. result, and that ascertained—the Bill hay-
lag been abandoned, • it had not been ex-
Pected that any thing- would be done. If in
the opinion of the House his Majesty's Mini-
sters had so acted as to forfeit its confidence and
support, then in God's name let it pronounce
that opinion decisively. But if on the other
hand it was held that they had consulted and up-
held the true honour of the Crown, and that they
had not been insensible either to the beet int-
rests of the country ;—if it appeared that they
had been drawn on step by step-in the late pro-
ceedings owing entirely to the peculiarity of the
circumstances which accompanied those proceed-
ings, and not from any pertinacity of their own;
it appeared that they had been actuated by
I'o feelings of private interest ;—if looking at the
whole tenor of their conduct, the Ilouse was not
disposed to attribute to it improper motives, then
lit was impossible that it could in honour and in
jwuesty, consent to pass that censure which it
Was the object of the present motion to convey.
(Cheers.) •
Wurrmoßt conceived that it was the duty
of every man to stand forward upon a question
Which so deeply affeeted the vital interests o
the country as that which was now before t •
Rouse. He would explain to the House his
. Mews,of the late proceedings as concisely as pos-
..,Bilde, and also the grounds upon which he should
eee-t eteseren....a. for the motion of 1113 Nohk
riend. It had been admitted that nothing but
'lt)rcase of the strongest necessity could justify the
hinging forward of such measures. It remained
eeiws to determine whether such necessity had
Wasll' -And the first question that arose was,
the
, - Morality of the country likely to be im-
asif,re, by such a course as had been pursued ?
ci ja' Was known in this country of the reports .
rciel 7
ate(' abroad respecting her Majesty, was as
v°!' li,ug in comparison to that which exercised its
• 11 fulloence when diffused in all quarters by
those
the among
rnorai t..he feeling,
heard proceedings. Much, indeed, had been
svlieTe cisrcelrelsin;g
Ibrourt-
ihnootf
e nation higehtlrte t
was to .be found. He was aware
That some
'would say, that the Queen had
forced herself into the country, and rendered the
measures necessary to be adopted against her.
lie would rather say that she had been forced to
,come into the country. He said so', because she
, nad been placed in a situation which left lier'no
Choice. Was it nothing that her. 'lame had been
excluded •from the Liturgy ? Was it nothing that
I.l_‘'r just rights had not been recognized ? \Vas it
Courts,
that the British Ministers, in Foreign
Z.
v.'„
aQurts, were desired not to recognize her as
ueen of England ? sHe was of opinion that she
s so completely driven into the country,
eca,..l- she had no alternative left but that of
hr°wledging the crimes imputed to her—of
passed to the sentence which had been
sei;sed tipoti her—(for he contended that sen-
li ce bad been passed) or of coming instantly
"° tl
ecla 'e country to face her accusers. She
as ;eyedt the latter, and the proceedings were
Politiel;TY commenced. And- if they were inis
of see themselves, surely the circumstances
birth `°"itry, at the period which gave them
-wee 'kw "-lptild make them doubly so. It was
weieh wn that the same unhappy distress
ee
me Neet
s-
"Pon the people at that time as at the
d and that the irritation which now af-
t •
pee, be public mind, had then the same exist-
- eeee
sv as that a moment at which to give a
sPrine to
\Veen every thing that was bad in the nation ?
me a miserable faction, low and desperate in
s,tus.elves, were labouring to overthrow the Con-
stitution
;" endeavouring to accomplish their dia •
heallc,al ends by reviling religiou—(Hears hear,.
(Hear
r )---hy insulting, the lawful authorities—
Ston, hear, hear !)---aud by every species of
the tNu.nlely and abuse towards them, expressed.in
that
caricatures and pamphlets—(Cheers)—
.w'iltina.. a moment to afford them fresh pretexts,
n they had already too much ground to work
113" ? With regard to the Bill of Pains and
nalties, lie did not pretend to any depth of
kle"cle(le,e in the constitutional laws of the
"untry, but he did think that if any proceeding
talte,a,il were 'necessary, they should have pursued
Of Impeachment, For Blackstone had laid
-own
terest , that any offence committed against the in-
-1r..e,0f the State or of the people, was liable to
1F F:-clement, He mentioned this to show that
(ase. of the Queen had been taken out of the
constitutional mode of proceeding in cases corn-
1g Within the above descriptioU. The Hon.

NNtnher then referred, t the opinions of Sir
William Temple, delivered upon the case of Sir
J. Fenwick, in support of his argument against
the adoption of the 13111 of Pains and Penalties.
, lie thought that Hon. Gentlemen opposite talked
rather slightingly of the people of England. What-
ever confidence Ministers might have in the majo-
rity of that House, and in the aristocracy.of the
country, they did not possess the confidence of the
country. lie had observed this in his immediate
neighbourhood and at meetings which had. taken
place in other Parts of the country. Ministers
would do well to examine whether those meet-
ings did not express the real feelings of the na-
(ion. He considered himself justified in shying
that the sentiments of the people were decidedly
hostile to the present Administration. Thii was
not a time for creating divisions between the
higher and lower classes ; and no one could view
any attempt of such'a nature without deeming it
most perilous and appalling. He feared that the
proceedings of ,the Session were not, hitherto,
calculated to increase the confidence which that
House ought to receive from the people. He
should say, " be careful that the people see the
heart of this House beating in unison with the
pulse of the nation—of the vigorous and health-
ful part-r—of the best feelings o the nation." He
certainly thought that her Majesty was now en-
titled to all her rights and privileges, as fully as
if no proceedings had obtained.. The law re-
quired it, justice required it, and policy demand-
ed it. What he had stated to the House he had
not felt as a party man, for he had been always
unconnected with any party whateVer. He had
been induced to feel as-lie did, and to state what
hie had stated, by the sole conviction that the
country was in a state of utmost alarm ; and
that the policy which ought to be adopted to-
wards the people was that of conciliation.

. .
Mr. BANKS considered that not only. the opi-
nions of the Hon. Gentleman Who just sat down,
but also the tone and manner in which they had
been delivered, were justly entitled to all the at-
tention which the House had paid them. On the
topics which came within the consideration of the
House, it was impossible to expect a perfect uni-
son of sentiment. He had viewed the proceedings
in which the country had been lately engaged
with a sensation of the deepest shame, at a time
when there was- so much on hands, when our do-
mestic policy required so much attention, when
there were so many important affairs, some of
which had been so ably alluded to in the latter
part of the Hon. Gentleman's speech. When our
national debt, agricultural distress, and our
foreign policy, were all pressing us; when we
turn our eyes to the south of Europe, and see the
things that are going forward ; in fact, whether
we consider our foreign or domestic affairs, it is
really shameful that we should be dragged into
such discussions, and rendered unable to attend
to them.—(Hear, hear.)—But - as . it became
necessary that the House should . came to
some definite termination, he hoped the House,
would excuse him for stating briefly the
sentiments that should regulate the vote he
would giva to-night. The lion. Mover and Se-
conder have brought forward accusations against
the Ministers, not for the purpose (as they fairly
state) of. regnlating_tho conduct of those who
succeed us—not with any theoretic views---bat
as a real practical- question: Now in order to
,justify the necessity of the motion, one of two
thins must be, made out---either incapacity to
conduct the affairs of the country, or some act of
delinquency which renders them unfit to be in-
trusted
with the Management of them. lie should
endeavour to distinguish these two points as
clearly as he could. It is extremely easy to cen-
sure and find fault with a measure after it is.
done; and in most•cases it is not difficult to dis-
cover- some better made of proceeding, if begiu
ning again. He (Mr. Bankes) was not Contented
with the beginning, the conducting, or the
termination of these proceedings, and now they
are over, and if beginning again, ire should
find it most difficult to say which was the
best plan of proceeding. These opinions, such as
they were, were his own, and he should lay them
fairly before the House. But it was peculiarly
hard to censure men, now when an affair is ter-
minated, and when it is difficult to say if begin-
ning again, what course; would be the wisest to
pursue. And would it be endured, When these
rumours proceeded from ell quarters, not from
Milan alone,: but from every spot where the
Queen visited, would it be proper, when those
reports were promulgated and generally known,
that the_ Queen should be received in this coun-
try as if her character were like that of the.,
former Queen, and was there any thing in the
proposition that had been made to her that
should meet with such contempt ? Had not the
House reason to believe that it was such a pro-
position as would be accepted ? Were they not
submitting something like the proposition that
had been made to them on her part? The Right.
Hon. Alember then adverted to the proposition
_with which her Majesty's law officer (Mr.
, Brougham, we presume) had been intrusted. As
far as the case had gone, it appears that Ministers
had done all they could to avert what they con-
sidered an evil,.namely, the coming of her Ma-
jesty. to this.country. This message was deliver-
ed to her Majesty's law officer, who thought fit
to go charged with it. We are told this Com-
missioner, this Ambassador, never delivered his
credentials; and her Majesty never really did
know what herown confidential agent had been
charged with. But that Gentleman stated, that
a time would come when he should explain his
conduct.. He- (Mr. Bankes) thought that, mak-
ing all clue allowances, that time might now be
fairly presumed to arrive ;. be thought the pe-
riod was now arrived when that Honourable
and Learned Gentleman might 'favour the
House with some, explanation on
.the sub-
ject. Under all these circumstances, be thought,
it was , too hard to say that Ministers did
not, front the beginning, shew some disposition
to avert those evils. The matter certainly never
came before the .house of Commons;but his own
- opinion was, that the mode by impeachment
. Would have been the preferable mode. The
Honourable Member who had seconded the mo-
.tion of the Noble Marquess, had gone into a very
wide discussion on the, different modes,. of pro-

. .
ceeding ; it ivaS hardly 4c,esiarY t 0 inform
the Hon. Member, that Billy of Pains and Penal-
.ties notthoughi coinininti were yet by nd tbeans
unconstittaional, tiffd the • only question here
was, • whether the application was proper or
not. To talk as sOniii Gentlemen had done, bf
trying her Majesty by a Jury of the coun-
try, was really too absurd. To come to the
question itself, 'l=re •Resolution could mean no-
' thing Wit an entire change of Administration,
being himself inditlerent of what individuals the
Administration was composed.—(Hear, hear !)-L--
He should be ready to support any Admhfistra-
tion, so long as they acted co;.for.nihly to his
opinion of right.. The number of persons in this
Country who by education and abilities were qua-
lified to take part in the conduct of affairs, was
larger, perhaps, than all Europe besides ; but
though' the number was so large, 'the choke of
the Sovereign was in practice and effe'ct confined
within much narrower bounds. Besides talents
and education, the' persons -must possesS other
qualifiCatiortS, • and must be known to the pub-
lic and td the Sovereign, which could only
be the case by being km Parliament. " In the
present state of parties (said the Honourable
Gentleman,) it is perfectly plain that if
you exclude that party, you raise this."—
( Laughter.)--But the lfouse must consider
those Gentlemen who were candidates for place,
for the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney)
had frankly stated he should not be•averse from
office ; and he (Mr. Barad es) -was one, Of :those
who thought that general reflections against place-
men, were slanders against those•whom the coun-
try had the greatest Obligations to. The House
must consider that there was in the country a
dangerous faction, not -existing in any great ae-
gret;, he hoped, in that House.—(l.aughter.)---
lie would repeat there was a desperate faction
-in the country, which was endeavouring to ex-
tend itself, by catching hold of every topic of
discontent, as a means to promote that confla-
gration in 'which they wished to involve the
country. Many Gentlemen of one of the. parties
of which he was speaking had given con-
fidence to that party by attending public
meetings. There might not be any direct
understanding, but there was a sort of co-
operation which alarmed him exceedingly. -
(A laugh and cheers.)—lt was no matter
of merriment ; it was matter of deep concern to
him ; and, if the gentlemen opposed to Ministers
should come into power (thinking well of their in-
tegrity and honour), he believed they would re-
deem the pledges ivhich they hAil given; and on

that account he must be excused from giving them
his 'confidence. Ile remembered .that some time
since, on the occasion of passing two. Bills in that
House, one of which was for regulating public
meetings, and the other fr:r putting some restraint
on the licentiousness of the press, he found those
gentle:nen the active opponents of those Bills.—
(Hear, hear 1)-Both those subjects were causes
of considerable alarm, and what was called the
liberty of the Press, but what he Called its
licentiousness, were particularly so, as he
thought he could gee it at the bottom of all the
present confusions, and any gentleman who
come forward to oppose regulations so essential
could not have his support. One lion. Member,
whose'candour he
,-honoureci,-SEtid, he supported
the' present motion, because it Must produce a
Reforni in Pal-Ham:tat, and the Gentlemen op-
posed to his Majesty's Ministers were pledged
to yo note (if not universal suffrage) some large
and comprehensive Refortis of Parliament. That
was another- of their plans which in the present
circumstances' of the country made him view
with alarm their entrance iisto office. If they
should come into office they would have a
Governmt:nt distinctly pledged to what was
called Catholic Emancipation.. Under, a di-
vided Cabinet—(hear, -hear')--they had •strug—
gled out of that question, he did not inquire
whether creditably or not, bitt the question
was steered oir.—(Upar, hear, hear I)—But
•11•Juld they have a Government pledged to
that question, it must be. opened afresh. The
Gentlemen on the other-side (Mr. Banker.
spoke froM -the Opposition side of the House)
had carried on affairs in a manner which gene-
rally had his. support ; and in the long war in
which we were-engaged he had seen them perse-
vering with spirit, and calling into actions all the
resources of the country, while their opponents
were desponding and discoura..ed. Under their
auspices a most rigorous war was crowned by the
most glorious
.peace which the annals of this
country could show for the last four centuries. 7---
Seeing these things, it was impossible for him to
any thing 'but vote against the motion of the
-Noble Lord.

Sir J. Mict:mosli rose, in. consequence of
what had fallen from the last Speaker ; but did
not intend to examine into his consistency or im-
partiality for the last forty years. Neither should
lie inquire into the panegyric which he had
passed upon one party (and which must have
been peculiarly grateful to the -Noble Lord, who
had been so entirely unused to it of late), while
censure had Ilow•ed'so abundantly upon the other
from that impartial Gentleman.—(A langh.)—
With respect to the French war, notwithstand-
ing the party with whom he had the honour to
act had originally opposed it, yet they had not
afterwards refused the supplies necessary for
carrying it on. They had not then opened just
cause for reprehension, as had been done on a
former occasion by the Party opposite. As to

. _
the glorious Peace of, which the Honourable
Meriiber had spoken, he was not -willing to
aloW that it was entirely owing to the- No-
ble Lord. For the glorious • Peace we were
indebted to* our gallant Captains, and the
high valour anti .achievements of the Bri-
tish Army.. The effects of that glorions peace
were to be found • in the present state of Eu-
rope. Ile _ would_ make no other observation
upon the glorious peace and the glorious alliance
—its offspring ; but that the Noble Lord him-
self had been obliged to disavow the acts and
piinciples of his Allies. lle.had been obliged to
say, that such was the nature of their principles
as to tend to the destruction of all national inde-
pendence.. lie hoped that what had been said
in the declaration of the Noble Lord would in-
'timidate them from proceeding in their present

• „i -
Out -or the 11-11-191 cat one Of Own- own
alai's they had been condemned, and heir
These were the effeCt of that
gloriottS'peace which had be,,'n J tianegyrii
ed by the in partial
down the basis :of Ijis
he proceeded to give a proof of it, by stathig
it to lie. his opinien that (yr part (filly
form the Cloyrrunient of the country. That
flonOurable, Member said that Ids (Sir lames
iliaCkintosh's) friendi -would be oblied to re
{Merit their pled!es. What were they ?
.1f all, they had attended Trilictoeetings of the
people of ii]ngland ; When had this teen charged
a4-ainst MeMbers of.Parlianf(;nt as being entitled!
to condenmatiOti ? Was it criminal to-miX. with
the people,
.to ascertain opinions, and to en-
deavour to reclaim them, if they haik been mis-
led ? If so; it Meant that the majority of, die
Howie of. CM-rat lons had declared ag-Linst the
people of England.—(Load criPs of_ " Ord:i"r,"
with vehement cheering on the Oprosition
benches.)
Lord c.tsmiutsuar rosé to order. He willed
to have the opinion of the Chair, whether, in the
most extended exercise of the liberty of expres-
sion, it was in order with the rules:of Parliament
for a Member to say that the majority (5f the,
Douse of Commons had declared war' againgt the.
people of England. (Load cheering from both
sides.) _ _

The SPEAKER said there could be only one
opinion in the_ Raise as to the nature of the words
which had been spoken. They were Most highly-
disorderly. He had confidently expi,cted the
Hon. Member tnexphin the words, which were
eertainly. most disorderly.
Sir J. MacKtsvrosu was proceeding to state,
svhenlie was interrupted by -the Noble Lord in
explanation of his meaning, that the tendency of
the vote of the majority of that House on a re-
cent occasion, Would he to create a belief that it
was at war with the interests of the people.
With regard to the meetings of the people, did
not Hoti:Gentlemen recollect the meetings at
the commencement of the American war ? He
helieved the Hon. Member himself (Mr. Bankes)
attended them, as well as Sir G. Saville, who
Was called to order in that House for much
stronger language than he had used. Were not
also the Marquis of Rockingham's, Mr. Gren-
ville's, and other great names fo'u connected
With the popular meetings of that period. He
supposed the impa'rtial Member entertained his
great partiality fox the Bill which went to re-
strict the liberty of the press, because it had
' been proved to be entirely ineffective. In spite
of those Bills, had they not in that very metro-
polis seen meetings of the people, processions
with banners and flags, surpAssing any thing
of the kind which had ever before been wit-
ueSsed Never was there a measure so in-
eflicient as this, if the House were to believe
the Loyal Addresses -which complained of the
unbounded prevalence of sedition and libel. But-
•he now come to the questiou of an effec-
tive moderate Reform of Parliament, against
which the lion. Member for Cur& Castle ex-
pressed so great a horror ; he was not sure whe-
ther it was a local or a general horror.—(A
laugh.)—The horror with which this proposition
was regarded was most danwous e for it, gave
the advocates for violent and unconstitutional re-
form a plea, that all safe reform,—all reform
which regarded the establishments of the coml.
reform within the pale of the Constita-
tion,—all moderate, or. as a reverend person
(Major Cartwright, of whom ho did not say
so -disrespectfully, as he thought him a wor-
thy man,)_ called it, all mock- reform was
equally resisted with that of the most outrageous
character. lie had always suspected that this
feeling was. at the bottom with all those who
were. the- enemies of reform, and that they
dreaded most the most safe and reasonable, but
he had never heard It lot out so much as •by the
Hon. Gentleman. Having, however, dismissed
the party, speech of the impartial Menibftr, he
would now tern to the question without touch-
ing on a subject of importance enough to be dis-
cussed by itself, viz. the expunging her Majesty's
name from the Liturgy, which he held to be a
high crime and misdemeanour; without saying
any thing of the Bill of Pains and Penalties, not
only because it had been so eloquently charac-
terised- by an Hon. Member who had addressed
them in the course of the evening--s(Mr. Whit-
more), but because his objections lay deeper to.
all the proceedings against the Queen. These.
proceedines, he asserted, had aggravated all the
evils and 7,dangers.of the country ; Ministers, by.
instituting theme had shewn a disregard of these
things ; by going on with them they had added
to the offence, and the House would be driving
matters to the_ utmost, if 'they did'not pass this ,
vote of censure to-night. No Man could doubt
that it had produced great evils, and yet he
had never heard one word uttered, to shew.
its necessity ; and without its paramount ne-
cessity beine..' shown, Ministers could have no.,
excuse. A Right llononrable Gentleman'
(Mr. Bathurst) had indeed take up an argu-
ment which had been used by his predecessor
(Mr. Canning), in losing whom for,a timee the
House had lost one -or its brightest ornaments,
and alleged that the Queen's. coming to this
country bad forced Government to these mea-
sures. This might be, he contended, a Ministe.;
rial necessity, but it was no public necessity ; a.
necessity which could only be convincing to those
who, like the , Honourable Member for Corffe
Castle,' maintaimad that there was only. one set of
Ministers in this groat, this enlightened country,
who could conduct its affairs. If this were so,
then it was an.answer to all charTes against them;
it. was a. discovery in politics \stitch would immor-
talize" the Honourable Gentleman. It was an
argument that
,would last for ever and be good
for all future Ministers, since there never would,
be wanting some honourable and- impartial man
to allege that they were the only
,Stetesmen fit
to be entrusted with the charge of Government,
and that if they were displaced no
.ocheis
'be foued to succeed them. . In the face.of this he.
declared that no necessity for originating the-pro-
ceedings against the Queen had ever been shown,.
and he called ,for the shadow of an argunient in
support of that position. Of all things it had.

been did ili:ty of adopt a firm deter.,

minatioo to prosecute or not to prosecute. If
they did not prosecl;te they ought to have ab-•
stained from all hisolta• and vaititheld nothing
which they were net absolutely cOaripelled to Will-
i hold, But liow,had tlieia acted? .TheY were net
I here IC 'rraoa anil there ie errart' bet 'they, were
ia error in the begiunina, in the riiiddlN and in
the'end. They had edinibeaced withadi 13k` e'.o .i-
--1 S:q"; I l is Hon. Friends.(the Attottiey- and Soli,
! eitOr»Generals), if ctlikti on to preaeente the oh-
scorest perion for a libel, w);_thl not prOcee'l
without AU assurance that they were likely.to be
successful. And , the political adVisera of • the
Grown might Still more than the legal advisers t 4
have looked to thiS, for their concerns were of
much greater impm.tatie, They also were bound
If Gentlemen, hdwever, decided in favour
of Ministers, whose nhafactera their d*rs friendS
allowed were injdred by tioaproceedings against
the. Queer, anti who had- citing to place after
they- had lost power, all In coUld say was, that
he had discharged Lis thity and tli,ist lcave• tli,
cansequences to fuslurily.
Mr. PEEL (after some conftision.reapee.ting the
'Member who had caught the eve of the. Speakel
began by =kilo.; an apology for riiieg after a
speaker of c much experience, hut the nattire of,
the debate relieved him frhm the necessity of
following the cour4 of that Honoera.ble Gentle•
man. Baying been absent on ali'occasioni when
he could have had en opportunity of deliveriog
his sentiments on this qtlestion, and holding • the
'same 'opinion with the majority-Oil-2 f014710' la ven2;
Mg, whose decision had been spoken off in Sti,_:li
-severe terms by the Hon. Gentleman; he avaa
anxious to state the grounds cot c.thich he would
has') concurred in voting witlathose who had hi
the heat of debate, been designated as having de.,
dared war against the people. The expression
had, it was trues bee:i afterwards quartied, and
he rejoiced that it• had been explained in a
avay-
consikent with the sense of Parliament. lie had
a painful, duty to porforin ; butt he was theae fd
express his limiest and independent opinion;
and- this he would do regardless of any im-
pression but that on his own mind, ' and
without party or Peqonal feelings on the
principles of impartial justice. In setting out
he would observe, that ho was one who did not
concur with Government in the measure of
omitting the -Queen's name from the 'Liturgy, and
on these grounds, that there was no incoecis,
tency in continuing it, and at the same time
coming boldly forward• with the charges whi'ch
were to be made against her.—(lltara)—Blit
neither could he have agreed to the motion of
the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton), because it took
hold of only an' insulated solitary point, mid hid
little or no bearing on the main question ; be;
cause it was ill-timed ; la, if made at all; it
ought to have been made last Session ; it ought
Ito have been made on the 29th of January last
year, when the order was issued, and not kept
till 'the 26th of January in this.—Why this de-
lay ? And also, because it would hate been an
act of injustice to visit, that act as a crime in
Ministers after the same- Parliament had' dis,
thictly' sanctioned it 4 He would, have voted
against the- motion too, becatise it was cal-
culated to redress no wrong ; because it was
merely adverse to Government, but no way
in ' favour of the Queen. it -was hinted
,j
deed that other resolutions were to follow;_but he
said, " let us have direct proceedings, and do hot
make so important a motion a'mere corollary td
another which can hardly be understood." On
--these grounds he would
.have toted with the ['ba-
lmily in the case alluded to. He -Must, howa
ever, speak in other terms of the present motien
brought forward by another Noble Lord. The
manly feeliog and straight forward' manner in
which it was framed and brought bgore the
House, merited every praise. The, speeches' of
the Noble Mover and Seconder plainly avowed
their object to be-the removal of Government
and an entire change in the Administration,.—
This had been coupled with some anticipations
of a consequent Reform. He cared not whether
it would produce Reform or not. If he thought
' the Government justly chargeable With the vin=
dictive spirit attributed to it by the Noble Lord;
or with the corrupt love of office asserted by,the
Hon.. Gentleman, he would not lOek beyond
to have abstained unless they had a reasonable,
assurance of success, after allowing for the ,evi-
dence of unknown witnesses, and after looking
at the temper and circumstances' of the papple.--
All these things they ought. to have , consi-
dered before they determined. . Again; nothing
could be more fatal than change and vacillation;
yet change and vacillation had marked their con-
duct from beginning to .e.ncl. - A. Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) had said that there
was a necessity, in order to preserve. the morals
of the,countrya
.and built on thee-concurrenee pf
the House in the negociations with the Queen.
- But the House knew nothics of -the CaSe.wliiCh
Ministers had in their, poasession, and it was Mini-
sters alone.who placed it in that difficulty: and em-
barrassment. By their proceedings they :had
first involved the honour of the Crown ; and they
had next induced the House, _ tp its. dishe,
nour, to throw itself at the feet of a . sahlect
(a thing which had, not been done fcr [.ix•cena
tulles) ; , and .all to . palliate their own disho-
nour. Having got the House -to rolopt this -stPp;
they had no right to blame the Queen for not
receiving their advice, They were not her, con-
stitutional advisers, and she was the sole judge
of, what was , for her own honoar and dearest
interests. He would next ask,.'what were ;11wir
assurances of success,?
,If the Bill had passed
the Lords,With tht same, majority whiCh hi had
on the second reading, he would declare, from
having consulted the,precedents far 200 years
back, with the..exceptiml of one (the melancholy
one of Sir John •Fenivick, which Woulhardi v•
be set up as, an example), there were none with
which it would riot be•ridiculous to compare this
of her Majesty. In the case AtterMiry, the
,numbers were in..prOportion, of .two tO one and
. even in that of Stratford they were es five fp two.
But in this, if.continued, as be„had'observed, the
same to the end as. on;the second o.eatling they
; would be beyond the .gioportion necessary to give
the cast in a-common jury, on r,-hieh no elltnunil
•aliad ever been convieteajeor Farah...lkeda Theki Cella

. ducts -diens heasSerted, itas an offence against the
pu hlice'antha wound to the monarchy: I t hind been
put, what Were the evils that had arisen ott of this
case. If they credited the lOyal Addresses, there
were a multitude of libels to complain of. But
who caused them ?;---the prosecutors of the Queen.
Who enlisted the best sentiments of humannature
ajainst the laws of the Country ? The prosecu-
tors of. the Queen. Even if they were pure in
intention, they had been guilty of so great an
error in judgment as to be a sufficient ground for
tee disosissal of any but a perpetual Administra-
siren of the kind supported. by the Honourable
Member for Cortfe Castle. it was the Ministers
who prosecuted the Queen who had most seri-
oeslv injered the foundations of the Throne. By
this they had famished a magazine for every one
to attack the isereditasy Monarchy. They bad
ueveiled the prelinlices and infirmities which, as
to all mankind, belonged also to Kings and
Queens* (with much palliation from the nature of
their seltrea!ion and circumstances); had thrown
them open to ptiblic scandal and insult, and had
made them the. theme of derision and scorn.
They, had published fur ever time disputes.be-
ween the King" and Queotn and brought the
-Conntry to the verge of a civil war in these quay-
re is. What were all other arguments- to this—
they had left the Throne itself in an inse-
cure . situation by this attack on the infir-
toities of -Royalty, and pit would take a long
course of round principles to restore it to its
iiignity 'and stability. He assured the House
that, hi all he had said, his words flowed more
In sorrow than in an;-cr. Ile -feared that they
were doomed 'to pass the remainder of their days
is trouble and disquiet ; but of all the evils, the
greatest would 'he a breach between that House
and the people---a breach he dreaded would be
widened by the decisien this night. For, how-
ever a majority of that House might decide, the
people had decided on the censure of Ministers
by a majority of 9.0 to one.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear'!" and " No, no," from the Ministerial
side.)-The confidence expressed hy these cheers
. Was what filled him With alarm. Ile wished for
a glorious_ peace and a happy alliance between
the House and time people ; and then they might
brave the state of Europe occasioned by the glo-
' liens peace and happy' alliances of Ministers.
either for his vote. lie would rather see Perna-
mentary Reform or Catholic Emancipation fol-
. low, than he would support a Cdvernment whose
exi-tence would be astain upon all Government.
—(hear'.)—He would found his vote on the view
of their whole conduct,and exanmineif it was such as
to call for the present grave interposition -of the
,House. If upon the whole he approved of their
motives and of their proceedings, though lie might
' differ on points of minor importance, he would
-meet the motion-with a direct negative. And he
put it to Gentlemen oppoSite if it would be fair,
now when they saw how all the currents had
set, and how events had run, to form their better
judgment on experience ? No,—they must in
justice place themselves in the situation of Mi-
nisters, and roust look at timings as when the
past was the future,- and what was now clear
in .obscurity.—(l-lear !)—lle had already
avowed that he differed from Ministers on the
subject of the omission of the Queen's name froth
• the Liturgy. He had also heard with regret
a Bight Honourable Gentleman withhold from
her the title of,Queen. And he had further la-
mented for the answer to her request respecting
a ship of war. Such matters, though they could
-have no weight with men of enlightened minds,
were calculated to make an impression on the
great body of- the people. However slight they
,were, the public farmed its opinions on them,
since, as Lord Bacon had truly said, " You will
sooner know which way the wind blows by cast-
ing up a straw, than by casting a stone." Here
lie closed the points of difference between him-
self and Ministers ; they were as nothing in com-
parison. with time whole ; on which lie cordially
egreed with them. lie approved of their insti-
tuting the proceedings. The lion. Gentleman
(Sir J. Al' Intosh) had asked, where was the ne-
re-3sity for these proceedings ? In the course of
'Ai experience, there never was a case more im-
s e 'a five ; for it was impossible to allow the Queen,
labouring under such charges as she did, to mount
the Throne without making a communication to
Parliament. If rslinisters had suffered this—if
the House, instead of the ration -now before it,
would have been discussing whether they should
•or should not be impeached for withholding from
Parliament the evidence of the momentous
charges of which they had knowledge—(Cheers!)
It was asked by the Learned Gentleman, what
would have been the evil if they had not pro-
ceeded ? Was it no evil then to admit imputed
Adultery to tile Throne ?--(flear, Bear,!)---Would
it have been a slight thing to place at the head of
the female society of this country (that female
satiety distinguished by all the feelings- and
principles that could delight • human • kind)--a
-would it have been a slight thing to have per-
rnitted her to assume the highest tank, and to set
the foremost example among these, who was la-
bouring under such heavy charges ?—(Hear,
hear I)—He would give no opinion upon the pro-
feedings, but that opinion he could not help in-
lieencing him, awl. it •must be the justification of
his conduct in -.private life, where this party
was concerned, and of his negative to the
present motion. While adMitting this influence
of the proceedings on his judgment, he was
also residy to concede to Gentlemen opposite,
that the Bill not having been carried through,
,the Queen was entitled to the benefits of an.ac-
quittal as far as her. rights and privileges were
involved. But lie had to consider- what was
sine to her accusers—now-the accused, and he
felt compelled to acquit them when he saw these
considerations forced -.upon him by the motion.
Ale saw the absolute necessity- for proceeding
gainst the Queen, and the same exposure would
have been the innevitaLle consequence of any at-
tempt of Ministers to evade it. The lion. Gentle-
man whose eloquent address had been so justly
panegyrieed (Mr. Whitmore) had asked if they
-saw no evil in giving unity, and a bond of concert
• to a desperate faction. Did that ifon. Gentle-
man think) they would have escaped the ma-
'chinations of that faction if they had placed the
Queen untried upon the Throne.? He had well

•
described ifs partizans as determined enemies
'te, the monarchy ; did he think they would
not have turned against the Queen with embitter-
ed animosity bad the Throne been made assailable
in her person ? Did he think that desperate lac.,
Lion which seized her_ arm to shake the tree,
would not have made the charges against her, if
passed over by Government, the matter of an
appeal to the lower orders, and the proof Of what
crimes -might sit upon the Throne unquestioned.
(Hear.)—lf Government had attempted to avoid
inquiry, they would have been impeached, and on
grounds which it would not have been easy to
meet. Supposing this, had happened, and the
Right lion. Member for linaresborough (Mr.
Tierney)-, had instituted the motion for impeach-
ment, it would only have been in unison with his
declaration of the'2lst of Feb., when he stated that
he would not vote a farthing of the public money
to a person labouring under such a cloud of
suspicion as the Queen, without previous inquiry.
This assertion alone must have led to an investi-
gation.. But the Right- Hon. Gentleman had
further declared, that he must have this pledge
to secure the Throne from degradation. What
then could have prevented -inquiry if the Right
Honourable Gentleman had acted on these
principles and refused a provision for the..
Queen, such 'as the llonse had 'the other
night voted unanimously ? Had Ministers tried
to evade it, what a case the Right Honourable '
Gentleman might have made.—(Hear,
It was said that the House knew nothing of
the facts when it sanctioned the negociations.
Was it not known that a Commission had
been sent out, and evidence collected ; and with
that in their possession was it possible for Go-
vernment to avoid a communication to Par-
liament? Had they attempted this, then they I
would have been guilty of a dereliction of duty,'
and have given proof of their wish to retain
' office. But having made the proposal, sanctioned
by the mediation of Parliament, and the Queen
having rejected it, there was no alternative ; it,
was impossible not to institute the process. She
'had assumed the consciousness of innocence, ansl-
to allow her to' ascend the Throne in triumph
after that, while they were convinced of her
guilt, would have been a gross dereliction. The
only inqUiry remaining was, if the course of the
proceedings was not, under all circumstances,
the wisest ? After considering all the evils
that had resulted from them, and- having had
experience of what they were calculated to
produce, he, was persuaded that in -making the
choice of evils, the selection was, on the whole,
that the most likely to attain the ends of justice
—(Hear!)—and on his conscience he believed it
to be as favourable to the Queen as any which
could have been adopted.—(llear from the Op-
position I)—As Gentlemen challenged by cheer-
ing this opinion, be would briefly state why he
preferred the Bill of Pains and Penalties. He
took it for granted that it was conceded to him
there could be bat two ways of proceeding—by
a Bill 'of Pains 'and Penalties or by Impeach-
ment. If the latter had been chosen, a Com-
mittee of that House must have decided 'on ex
parte evidence, and the House must have voted,
aye or no, on the charges placed before it.--
The prejudice thus raised against the accused

must have operated' for the long interval which
must elapse before she could have entered
on her justification, which would have been
infinitely worse than any thing of the kind
which had been complained of in the other mode.
He also doubted if an Impeachment could have
been maintained where the person with whom
the crime was charged to have been committed,
was not a subject of the realms and the place of
its committal was beyond the jurisdiction of the
kingdom. If anx doubt existed on this point, so
as-to warrant the supposition that it might lead to
a technical acquittal ; it was a sufficient reason for
not proceeding by impeachment. The Bill of
Pains and Penalties, he repeated, was favourable
to the accused ; for no man would credit that any
Peer in Parliament could be so base as to withhold

'rorn her the benefit of any doubt in that mode

which he would have extended to her in impeach-
ment. But if impeachment bad been adopted,
would it not have been necessary for
,the purpose
of divorce and degradation to follow it by a bill
like that which had been resorted to in the first
instance On these _grounds, he was decidedly in
favour of the proceedings as they had been insti-
tuted. With respect to the general argument, if
ever an ex post facto law could be at all autho-
rized, it surely must be to visit such crimes as
were clearly defined by time laws of God and by
the laws of the realm, to meet such a case as
this of the Queen of England—(Hear)--which
was one of great State necessity. if any thing
could justify a departure from the usual course
of -administration, it existed here. Never,
therefore, was there a greater necessity, though
the Honourable Gentleman Lad heard no word of

it, never was there a greater necessity than to
prevent adultery and high treason being in-
stalled on the Throne. But the Honourable
Gentleman had told them there was no danger to
the succession in the crime, and that if committed,
it was in the midst of the Mediterranean. If he
believed the crime had been committed at
all, did he think it lessened the danger of holding
it up as an example to all that graced Bri-
tain in its female character—did he think it
weakened the argument, that it was committed
in one place rather than in another ? It
was no matter to him (Mr. Peel,) and he held it
to be of utter ildifference to morality and to the
country. Ministers then, in their offer to the
Queen, and- in their agreeing to the wishes of the
House of Commons, appeared so far from having
been actuated by a base desire for office, to have
made 'a sacrifice of their personal feelings, and al-
most of their own consistency in order to avoid
the necessity for that exposure of which they were
now accused.—(Hear, hear !)—The same motive

had led to the offers afterwards made to her,
.which he could not charaCterize as unwise but as
unfortunate. Ministers had adopted the lesser evil.
They had every reason, which a knowledge of
the human mind and of the common rules of

human action could give, to believe that their
offers would be accepted ; and could he. now turn
round, instructed by events, and censure them
for doing that, the consequences of which no

man could have foreseen ? Would those who
most blamed the disclosures that had been
made, also blame Government for the exer-
tions they had made to avoid them'—(Hear,
hear, bear !)-1-Ie had thus stated his opinions
without any object but justice, and without com-
municating with others. He had also delivered
them without reference to the appeals to the
public. Never had he heard so many s adjurations
to look out of the.. House ; never's() many fore-
warnings, so many menaces.—(Hear, hear !)
But he was not to be moved by such considera-
tions, and the House would do well to form their
judgments on their own minds, and without regard
to other impressions, to give their votes honestly.
(Hear, hear !)—Nothing could so entirely de-
stroy the legislature as their trembling in every
breath of popular air—(Hear, hear !)—as their
balancing Loyal Addresses against Addresses of
another description—(Hear !)_as their attempting
to adopt the opinions of the public without refe-
rence to the intrinsic merits of the questions be-
fore them. Even if they tried to accommodate
themselves to this test, they would find it a diffi-
cult thing to determine ,precisely what public
opinion really was. They would find it to be
most fickle, most unconstant and most ungrate-
ful.—(hear !)—Fickle and unconstant, for pub-
lic opiliotfwould not he the same at the end of 3 or
G months : tm,,grateful, for if they studiously con-
sulted what the anititude believed under impres-
sion of passion and not of reason, public opinion
would be the first to turn round against them. (Hear,
hear!)—But if he professed au utter disregard to
that public opinion which the political advisers
of her Majesty had caused and relied on—to
that public opinion which would itself change
if appealed to, when sober, from its own
intoxication ; if he utterly disregarded such
popular sentiments as these advisers instilled
(and when speaking of the Queen's Answers
to Addresses, he made allowances for their
intemperance on account of her unhappy situa-
tion), it was because they emanated from the arts
not only of the fatal enemies to the peace of the

country, but the greatest enemies of the Queen
herself. He believed, too, that a great change
had taken place in public opinion, and it would
be ultimately and decidedly in their favour, if
they were not too anxious to form their delibera.
tions to its will, but on conscientious motives.—
(Loud Cheering.)

Lord NUGENT cent;idereel the la-,;-aage that had been used
towards‘the.Queen as most ungenerous, and declared upon hiS
honour that he.helleved her to be innocent of every part of
every charge against her as supported by the evidence. Ile
denied that the Queen had been convicted, as stated by the
Hon. Member for Surrey. There was one question of- impor-
tance which he was desirous of putting ; namely, what repara-
tion could be made to the Queen for the gross libels which had
appeared against her ? He • then called the attention of the
House to, a libel which had lately been published of the most
dangerous character. In the course of an investigation of the
evidence, the publisher had dared to state over and over again,
the name of the highest authority, namely, the Lord Chan-
cellor.- fie alluded -to a pamphlet, entitled " The Speech of
the Lord Chancellor." The writer ought to have known that
the Lord Chancellor himself would have been liable to a pro-
secution'for libel had he .used the words imputed to him. lie
was sure if the Noble Lord o.ppOsite was aware of the ex.stel?ce
of the libel alluded to, the Noble Lord would pursue it with
the intention of bringing the offender within the reach of law.
-He should vote for the motion of his Noble Friend. •

Lord-MILTON thought the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Peel) had failed to make out the case he intended for his Ma-
jesty's.opinion. lie thought that such a voice of public opi.
nion had been uttered as it was impossible for the Representa-
El/6 of the People to mistake. The Right Nom Gentleman
had disapproved of so many of the measures of Ministers against
the Queen, that he could find none which he approved of, ex-
cc-;.; that of a Bill of Pains and Penalties, rather than pro-
ceeding by Impeachment. If Mini.,ters had suffered Adultery
and High. Treason to mount the Throne cf England, it would
indeed have been matter of impeachment
.against them ; but,
before they had taken that step of charging the • Queen with
those offences;they ought to have been able to have made them
out. However unpopular his opinion might be in that House,
(and he knew his opinion was different from that of many in
high life,) yet he was not ashamed to say, that the Queen was
not guilty. He certainly had believed in her Majesty's guilt,
until he saw the way in which that guilt was proved. Now he
was ready to join the Right Ron. Gentleman in ridding the
Court of every thing adulterous and immoral. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had praised the proceeding by Bill of Pains
and Penalties, instead of by Impeachment ;. but by Impeach-
ment, she would have been guilty or not guilty at once ; but
now, though she had been acquitted, Members of Parliament
thought themseltres justified in giving it as their opinion that
she was guilty. He would vote for the motion of his Noble
Friend.

Mr. H. TWISS, in a maiden speech, most strenuously op-
posed the motion. The occurrence with respect to the Queen
had brought Members of Parliament to a sort of scrutiny, and
he might have considered it sufficient to give his mere vote on
the plain question; but' when the subject of discussion was;
whether the Ilouse should do something to lead to the expul-
sion of Ministers, and impute to them offensive conduct, he
could not remain silent.—(Bear, hear, hear !)—This was the
first time he had presented himself to the House, and on that
account he presumed the cheering was , friendly. With that
impression he should proceed. • He then observed, that when
the measure assumed a character offensive to manly and honest
feeling, it would be unjust to Ministers not to oppose it. The
original question about the Liturgy was raised not by the
Queen herself, for'whom so much sympathy wa.s claimed, but
certain persons who wished, in the present instance, to profit by
the wrong they themselves had committed. The advisers of
the Queen, at the commencement ef the proceeding against her,
never once thought it worth while to mention as a grievance the
omission of her name in the Liturgy. Much had been said
about the witnesses for the Queen, but it ought to be remem-
bered that the chain was broken--several did not appear—con;
-sequently it wag uncertain whether contradiction might have
occurred ; but he. did not deny, notwithstanding the, peculiar
circumstances attending the trial, that the Queen was entitled
to a full discussion of the case. It was generally admitted that
the Queen's conduct was suspicious, and whilst there was sus-
picion, could the Ministers stand quietly looking on, without
interference ? If they had not interfered, would nothing have
been said about Ministerial pusillanimity ? Upon the whole view
of the case, Ministers had done their duty, and the party
ac-
cused ought to be cleared before she was reinstated in the rights
• and immunities which belonged to the character of • queen.—
On what new discovery did the framers of the motion Cast cen-
sure on 'Ministers ? Did it follow because the proceeding was
withdrawn ? If so, what would become of prosecutors in all
cases of suspicion ? The only question before the House was
this—Could- any man say, upon the evidence laid, before ,the
House of Lords, that the prosecution was wholly inexpedient ?
Before he sat down he wished to say a few words respecting the
Bill of Pains and Penalties. Many Gentlemen were disposed
to consider that measure unconstitutional. lie was satisfied ,
it was a constitntional proceeding, and that no impeach-
ment would have laid. Here the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man cited several legal authorities in support of his assertion.—
Adverting again to the expression of popular feeling, he consi-
dered
the Gentlemen opposite him the real cause ofi the dis-
quiet in all part.s of the kingdom. He expressed his intention
to vote against the motion. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, at the conclusion of his speech, was loudly cheered. .
r. BENNETT then said, that many Gentlemen were de-
sirous of delivering their sentiments, and as there was no pro.
spect of ending the debate that night, it was better to adj ourn
He accordingly moved, " That further debate on this ques-
tion be adjourned to this day."
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, if there was any prospect of
finishing the debate at that sitting, it would be best to go on. If
Gentlemen wanted the opportunity to speak, it , would have
been more consistent had they adjourned at an earlier hour.

(Here some Members eXclaiined,
called loudly for adjournment.)
The SPEAKER put the question, and the subsequent mo.
tion to adjourn, which was agreed to without a division. •
The House accordingly adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK.

." Go on !" while others