The Sun.
London, England, 1821-12-05 00:00:00

IMPORTANT
AGRICULTURAL MEETING.

On Monday a nurnberof the most affluent and
respectable Agriculturalists of the County of Sussex
assembled at Lewes, for the purpose of taking
into consideration the present depre§sed state of
Agriculture. The large room at the Star inn
was lit,erally full ; and on the proposition of Mr.
ELLMAN, sen. the Right Hon. the Earl of EGRE-.
MONT was, with unanimity and universal ap-
plause, solicited to take the Chair.--His Lord-
ship, in complying with the request of the Meet-
ing, said, that it had not been his intention, on
entering- the room, to take. so prominent a part
in the proceedings of the day. his reason was,
that he had considered the Agricultural question
attentively, but had yet found himself unable to
come to a decision on so intricate a subject.
However, having assisted at various Agricultural
Meetings, he would certainly obey with pleasure
the wishes of the present Meeting, and listen to
what any of the Gentlemen present should •be
prepared to state.

- Mr. ELLMAN, sen. having presided at the
Meeting of the Agricultural Association, begged
to mention the object of assembling on the pre-
sent occasion. Many Were of opinion that it
would be a preferable course to call a Meeting
of the County, but for himself he must say, that
'on such occasions, where a diversity of opinion
would be certain to prevail, he was persuaded
there would be many talkers and few hearers ;
and that consequently little benefit would be.
found to result. There were, he understood,
several Gentlemen present, who had been de-
puted from the eastern part of Sussex, to state
what were the feelings and opinions there upon
the subject; and he should therefore sit down in
expectation of hearing from them the sentiments
of that portion of the county.
Mr. Li sac (a Magistrate from the East Of
Sussex) said that he had attended a Meeting
held at Robertsbridge, on Saturday, on which
occasion he had been deputed to-attend at Lewes
this day. He was authorised to express a hope
that a County Meeting would be called, since
that would be certainly • the most efficient mode
of giving to the consideration of the subject that
importance which was so highly desirable. In
the part of Sussex where lie resided, the distress.
was truly alarming ; and lie spoke not merely of
the condition of the occupiers of land, but also of.
the state of the landlords and clergy, who, as
well as the former, severely felt the 'pressure of
the times.--The reduction which they had. been,
cotnpelled to make in their incomes was • very
serious. He would mention a fact, which was in
itself sufficient to prove the justice of what he
had stated, as to the amount of distress. The
number of men out of employ in the Eastern
District was most alarming,; so Much so, that 'it
had been computed there were, at the present
moment, in one Rape` alone (that of 'Hastings,).
no less than 1,000 persons in such a predicament ;
and this appalling calculation had. been corrobo-
rated by -Mr. Barton, of Battle, the clerk of the
local Magistracy. When however, he said- that
there were so many men destitute of employnient,
he meant to include in the number those -who
had been hired by the 'farmer without occasion
for'their services, at a rate greatly beyond the
actual value of their work, lie giving, perhaps,
ten shillings for what could have been. performed
equally well by horses at the cost .of one. The
complaints. now expressed proceeded from men
who, during the war, had come cheerfully for-
ward to support their share in the burdens of
the country, and who considered it a duty
equally binding to conic forward as they did now.
Mr. HAVILAND was, also deputed to attend'
from the Eastern part of the county. He had
not however been aware that the;Gentleman who
had last spoken would be present.—He begged
to corroborate most strongly what had been said
by' Mr. Lambe, as well relative to the existing
distress, as to the propriety of calling a County
Meeting. He was persuaded that such a course
would have a much better effect, and he doubted
not that an example on the part of Sussex would
be followed throughout the kingdom.
Mr. ELLMAN, jun. said, that an allusion hav -
ing been made to the hop plantations, lie would
beg leave' to'read from the Evidence-offered be-
fore the Agricultural Committee of the House
of Commons, a question 'put to Mr. Barton, to-
gether with his answer. It was as follows :
" Have not most of the farmers in your district
a hop garden ?-=-No; .I think at least one-half
of the district is not what is commonly under-
stood to be in the hop country. The place I
live in divides that part Of the country; to the'
eastward of me there arc a good many hops ; to the
west they are not found to answer ; unless they
will grow any where, and then they can -get no
return for them ; the greatest distress I know of
is in the parishes in which there are no hops
at all."

Lord EGREMONT having expressed a desire to
know the real situation of the poor in the neigh-
bourhood of Lewes,

11Ir. ELLMAN, sen. stated, that in the parish
of G lynde, Where he resided, the poor rates had
risen very ►materially during the last 20 or 30
years. There had, it was true, teen a trifling
deduction of the amount within the last two
years; but it was chiefly attributable to the cir-
cumstance of his having himself given employ to
men, who would otherwise have been compelled
to derive their support from the parochial funds.
Ile had paid for labour during the laSt year no
less a sum than from 1;400/. to 1,5001. a great
proportion of which had *certainly been useless to
him. 'ln the neighbouring parishes, the poor
rates had been very little diminished. In that of

Ringmer, there were a great nriny persons out of
employ, or degradingly occupied in carrying sea
gravel, or what is still worse, in poaching and
thieving.
Lord EGREMONT felt anxious to ascertain whe-
ther in the rapes of Lewes and Pexensey, the
proportion of unemployed paupe4lo was equal to
that in the rape of Hastings I
Mr. PAYNE said, that in Rh:timer, where he
resided, there were at present about or 30
persons out of employ. In reply to a question
from the Noble Chairman, Mr. P. observed, that
they had not the means of reducing the poor
rates, in consequence of the fall in the price of
corn.

Mr. HAVILAND stated, that in Berwasi► the
number of pauper 4 had greatly increased, so
much so, indeed, that out -of a population of
1900, there were actually 400 (that is, including
the whole families) unemployed. Wadhurst
and other neighbouring parishes were similarly
situated.

Mr. LAMBE remarked, that the poor rates af-
forded but a very deceptive criterion, by which
to estimate the real amount of distress. In the
east of Sussex, there prevailed a system of bil-
leting the poor; that is, the farmers mutually
bound themselves to maintain each a certain pro-
portion of paupers, who were thus prevented
from resorting to the parish for relief. The rates
were by this means apparently kept down, but
if, in such a manner, the farmer paid nine shil-
lings for labour, which he could have had per-
formed for six, the surplus of 3s. ought in reality
to be added to the amount of the rates. If he
went to the market for labourers, he certainly
would pay much less ; and whatever might be
the temporary result of the plan, he felt con-
vinced that the poor rates would be unavoidably
increased.

Mr. Hercnnis said, that if any Gentleman
from Hailsham were in the room, .he would give
a lamentable-account of the state of things in that
parish. He himself had witnessed a heart-rend-
ing scene there a few days ago : he alluded to
the occupation of drawing gravel, which was, as
had been truly said' by another gentleman, most
laborious and degrading. An additional evil too
was, that the men-thus employed usually con-
cluded their 'labour by ten o'clock, after which
time, havitig nothing to do, they had recourse to
poaching. •
Mr. INGRAM had considerable property in
Hailsham ; and he must say, that he thought it
disgraceful to see paupers occupied in the way
which had been described ; as a further proof of
the-feeling which prevailed upon the subject, he
mentioned that they had received from the lower
orders the'degrading appellation of convicts. He
(Mr. I.) agreed with Mr. Lambe, in thinking the
poor-rates a " deceptive criterion." It was, per-
haps, presumption in him to intrude upon the
Meeting ; but as no other person had done it, he
would take the liberty 'of stating what he consi-
dered to be the only mode in which relief could
be afforded. Every possible encouragement
ought to be given to the agriculture of this coun-
try. 'For instance, the cultivation of clover-seed
was capable of giving much employment ; and
the fat and tallow which are brought from Russia
a■d Buenos Ayres might be procured at home.
In short, all that our own country could produce,
Government ought to encourage ; and in this way
much might be done. The real cause of the pre-
sent difficulties was, without doubt, taxation :
while money was plentiful we could get on, not-
withstanding the pressure of imposts; but now that
the value of the pound-note was reduced to 20s.
all parties experienced difficulties. One (and per-
haps a principal) source of relief would be found
in encouraging the produCtions of the soil ; an-
other, in making every possible reduction in the
expenditure of Government. The means and
necessaries of life not being now so high as in
1792, it could not be deemed a hardship to bring
down the revenues of public officers to the same
standard. He spoke not of -the poor clerks ; he
did not think they were the persons who should
be made to suffer ; on the contrary, they merited
all that they received ; but he-spoke of a reduc-
tion in the salaries of those who could well bear
a diminution of income. Another mode of relief
might be, to take off the taxes which pressed
hard upon the lower orders, and to make up the
deficiency by a property tax. These were the,
views which he entertained -upon the subject, and
these the modes of relief which he should feel
disposed to point out. He did not, however,
offer them in the shape of a specific proposition,
but merely as,a declaration of his sentiments and
feelings.
I Mr. ELLMAN, sen. conceived that the ques-
tion at present before the Meeting was, whether
an increase or diminution had taken place, in the
poor rates. ,From his own personal means of
observation, he had no hesitation in saying, that
the rates had very materially increased- within
the last four or five years. The money which a
farmer actually paid to his labourer beyond the
actual value of his work, amounted, he was con
vinced, to as much as the whole of the poor-
rates, and he knew not why' the farmer, -more
than others, should be compelled to pay at such
a-rate. He disapproved of the plan of billeting
mentioned by Mr. Lambe. There• had been two
or three meetings at Frarnfield on the question
whether men should be billeted or: paid by the
farmers. Last year a system had prevailed iof
putting up to auction the labour of paupers ; and
this, perhaps, was a fair criterion. Last year
there were strong hearty men who could.get no
more than sixpence a day ;, and a short time ago,
he happened to be at a •friend's in the eastern
part of the county, who, hiring aloung man:of
23 or 24 years of age, would give him no more

than ten-pence per day. To himself, who occu-
pied nearly the whole of the parish in which Jae
resided, it was a matter of perhaps little cone-
(pence whether the wages were paid by himself,
or paid out of the rates; but to those who lived
in ilarge parishes it became a very important ob-
ject: He did conceive the farmer was not bound
to pay more than what was a fair price ; in which
case the poor-rates, he was certain, would be
doubled, since there were at this moment many
more men out of employ than at the same period
lastyear.

MT.,MARTIN observed, he had .been informed
by Mr. Marshall; that in his parish there were
100 paupelta out of employ. To so high a pitch,
indeed, had things proceeded, in consequence of
the • poverty and dissatisfaction of the poor, that
the overseers were threatened, and actually con,'
sidered themselves in danger. He left the Meet-
ing from this to judge what must be the situation
of the parish. He scarcely knew if he was au-'
thorised in stating (what he had been Cold by
Mr. Marshall) that so enormous were the poor-
rates, as to determine him to dispose 'of hiS
estate, finding they absolutely consumed, it up.
Mr. ELLMAN, jun. rose for the purpose,of ad-
verting to what had fallen from his father, who
had said that he conceived it to be a point of
little importance to himself individually (as oc-
cupying nearly the whole of the parish in which
he resided) whether his labourers were paid by
himself or out of the poor-rates. With all de-
ference, +he (Mr.Ellman, jun.) thought that there
was a.very material difference, at least-as- to the.
amount of reliet which he was entitled to expect.
By hiring labourers from the neighbouring parish
of Ringtner, the work might have been done for
half what it had actually cost ; so that out of
the 1,0001. which had been paid, 750/. ought in
fact to go to the poor-rates. Beddingham, the
parish in which he (Mr. Ellman, jun.) resided,'
was little burdened with poor, because there
being only three or four occupiers, they bad
agreed • to take the • men themselves and, find
them work, in order to prevent their becom-
ing a burden to the parish. He had seen
men employed in drawing beach, .as had been
already described, and it was indeed a pain-
ful sight. One of them (the leader) -worked.
with ;a bell about his neck. These men had.
'to work but half the day, and what was the.
consequence ? There were at- this moment 160
prisoners• in the Lewes 'House of Correction !
The distress in the parish of Ringmer has not
greatly increased, judging 'from the poor-rates
alone ; but these were a very uncertain criterion,
and would be so, till the system were adopted of
paying for labour only what it was actually worth.
And why should it not be so ? Look at the
manufacturer—he turns off his hands the instant
there is no occasion for their services ; he pays
little or :nothing to the .poor-hates ; and thus,
giving for labour only what it is intrinsically
worth, he has not the same claim with the agri-
culturist for relief. If .the manufacturer pro-
duces an article for which there is no sale, he has
but to dismiss his workmen ; whereas, if the
Agriculturist should produce an article which
sells at a reduction of 50 per• cent., he has no,
.such facility. On the contrary, he has to pay. in
:rates what he may not have to pay in wages ; and
therefore, he repeated, 'the Agriculturist had a
better title to•relief. Mr. Ellman concluded by
saying that he had prepared Resolutions, which,.
according to the pleasure of the Gentlemen pre-
sent, he would now read, or 'postpone till a
County Meeting, should such a measure be de-
termined upon.
Lord EGREMONT. thought that a County Meet-
ing would be of little utility, unless some one
should be prepared with a specific proposition.
'He had heard gentlemen say various things, all
however inapplicable to every part of the coun-
try. In some places the poor rates had been
diminished, and where the case was different, it
wasp, he felt persuaded, owing to local causes.—,
One cause was an increase of population, which
had, within the last ten years,.been very great.
If a County Meeting should be convened, it
would, he >presumed, be with the view of peti-
tioning Parliament ; and then, in all probability,.
we should- witness the same result as-we had seen
last year. Tie could .not forbear saying' that
a mass of more contradictory, of more frequently
Tefuted,evidence than was then presented to Par-
liament, had never fallen within his observation.
For himself he would,observe,.that he was ready
(and so he was sure were a great many other
gentlemen). to devote himself entirely to the
investigation of this . important and intricate
question. He confessed that he was at a loss to
say what was the real cause of the present dis-
tress ; it arose, doubtless, from a combination:of
causes, and he did not think it in the power of
any gentleman'. to point out a remedy. Still it
was right to discuss and investigate the subject,
—His Lordship 'then stated, that in Yorkshire,
where he had a consi4erable estate, ,and 'where
the population had increased as much• as in Sus-
sex, he was.informed by his agent that the: poor-
rates were not more : than . seven-pence in the
pound, and 'the distress far from being -general or
-severe. He was, persuaded that "the amount -of
the rates was attributable to .the low:price:of
corn. 'He felt anxious to. know, Whether,, lir the
east of: -Sussex, with an increase' of ,population,
there 'had been a' falling-off in cultivation ? -.For
the last year and half, he
.had • been .persuahled
that there was something peculiarly..distres.siugi in
that district. ' One important point which •had
been' little mentioned on the :present. occasion,
was the low price of corn. The question was—
did such low prices arise from the importation: of
foreign corn ? He firmly believed that for the
ast two years there had' been little competition.

His own opinion was, that the ))resent difficulties
were caused by a too hasty attempt to alter the
currency ; for it could scarcely be supposed, that
a system) which had been the work of twenty
years, could be, without incouvenience, so
suddenly abolished. Ile also took shrott to.
himself for having voted in Parliament in fa-
vour of the abolition of the Property Tax,
.since he was now persuaded that on a "mo-
dified scale it would be the most salutary
measure that could be adopted. Every man,
however`, who mixed in public affairs, would
often do things which he would afterwards .be
compelled to regret. It was said by many that
the debt of the country was a great evil; yet 130
one could say that it was a loss to the nation.; on
the contrary, it was but the transfer of property
from one class of the community to another. It
was, in his opinion,
_a mine of wealth ; and he
was persuadek... much evil would result if a reduc-
tion of the debt should take place. For him-
self, his Lordship said that he had ,not, inor
would he ever have, one farthing in the funds;
and therefore in what he had stated he could of
course be influenced by no personal feeling. ,He
must say that he thought. them a sort of bakilic iii
which all might take refuge ; and that we should
find ourselves much poorer without them. He
had, during a life of 70 years, witnessed many
and . various, revolutions, and he must say, that
any one who could bring himself,now to speak
confidently on the subject, must be of a .very
different frame of mind from his own. He thought
that before a County Meeting should be decided
on, the measure ought to receive the most careful
consideration.

Mr. HAVILAND begged to remark, that ere a
Meeting of the County could be assembled, some
time must necessarily elapse,during which a spe-
cific proposition might be
,prepared. In reply to
what had fallen from his Lordship, Mr. H. said
that in the east of Sussex, the land was not per-
hapi so well cultivated as it had been some time
ago, and this was owing to the inability of the
farmer.

Mr. ELLMAN, jun., in reply to one part of
his Lordship's speech, begged to read an extract
from the Report of the Agricultural Commit-
tee ;—" For example, let it be.supposed ,that
on the 15th August next, the average price'of
wheat .ascertained in the usual mode should be
70s. 11d. per quarter, whatever may be-, tt.)e
possible scantiness of the forth-coming harvest
(a fact not then capable of being ascertain-
ed,) the ports will,remain shut till the 15th.N0,--
vernber ; but if that average should be 80s. ld.-
whatever maybe the abundance of the ,forth-corn-
ing harvest, the ports and the warehouses of fo-
reign corn will be opened at least for six weeks,
and in all reference to the principal exporting
counties for ~three months." In 1818, the ports
were open,,-and no less than 600,000 quarters of
foreigrk.wheat were imported, which thus met
the early and abundant harvest of the following
year.. The supply for London was estimated at
16,000 quarters weekly, one-eighth of which
would have been -foreign corn.—Now either
600,000 more quarters of English and Irish wheat
would have been consumed, or .some of the im-
portation of foreign wheat must still remain un-
sold. In June last, he knew that 30,000 quar-
ters remained on hand, which the factors .had
'orders to sell whenever it reached a specific price.
The consequence was, that the ,London market,
which, it was well known, had an astonishing
influence on all others, had, till the last harvest,
been much depressed.

Lord EnnEMONT, adverting to an overflow of
stock in the markets, said that it might be caused
either by •too great a growth, or by the poverty
of the farmer forcing him to send his corn for
sale. If the latter were the cause, it must be
expected that in the spring a scarcity would take
place, and consequently that prices would rise.
•This Lordship mentioned that he 'had not yet
called in .his,Mirhaelmas rents; one individual
instance of this kind might, be of little avail,,but
if all could afford to do so, the greatest benefit
would result.

Mr. lllTcniss was of opinion, that the primary
.cause of the present distress was to :be found in
the resumption of cash:payments, And the conse-
quent diminution of the circulating medium, ,which
had the effect of. checking,speculation ; sincepow
the agriculturist : had 'neither inclination, • nor
means, to indulge in it. lie -believed ,that this
year would not expire without the ports. being
-opened. 'lf the growth of, our own . country be
too large, the n,uestion, in his opinion, resolved
itself into a small focus. ,By laying on foreign
corn aduty.equivalent to the poor rates and other
charges, with which the English farmer ,h.as: to con-
tend, and of whiCh the foreigner knew nothing; the
former would be protected4lt was•well known. that
. the foreigner could bring corn into .our markets
at 81. and 8/..1.05. which it •was impossible for
the English. farmer to do. •Pursuing: such ,a sys-
tem, as he recommended, no „locking-top of: the
ports would be necessary. The .agriculturists,
said Mr. li., had. never received :great
land ,naw, all that they asked was a. fair; return
~for their capital .and industry. As,an ;i<ncliy dual,
he coal& truly say, -this, was.all
.that.the4vished.
Ile had no.objection to riseearlyancl;.verk- Bard ;
but he+ looked for, what -he ,was; surely, eaki4.led
~to expect, the •sarnepprofit :as . the 4-nerchatit,and
manufacturer. received. The subject •,,was;, one
which required much and ,:detp POllsideration
obutit must ultimately resolve itself:iititto: t his—
• that, the farmert cannot pay 205.% isthile.ncishing
only 1,45.. or 115 s. It was- impossible that such
.a coorsenf..Altings. could,Jong coatilwe, -,and it
was .most, painful: .to,a -man ',Whose , ondence was
not called question.toitelhas - circutbstanced.
No ,one (he cared ••not :might • be)