The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-26 00:00:00

IMPERI AL PA i 1 L lAMEN T.

the subject.—(l he Noble Lord resumed the reading of the re-
purt amidst great laughter.)
The Earl of SflArrEsnuaY and the Earl of DEVON having
declared their opinion that the presentation of the report was
irregular, the motion was withdrawn.

HOUSE OF 1:01WS, July 23

Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition on the subject of
pauper lunatics, praying for further inquiry. The petition was
[ram inhabitants of the borough of Finsbury.
PRIVILEGE.

SCOTCH POOR-LAWS.
Lord COTTENHANI presented a petition praying that
Mr. Henry Miller might be heard by counsel at the bar of
their Lordships' House, against the Scotch Poor-law Bill.

There never was greater insmomlity, even in this great metro-
polis, than prevailed in the very precincts of the House. The
population of the united parishes of St. Alargaret's and St.
John's was 56,C00, of which 7,900 were returned as belonging
to the Established Church, and 6,000 as Dissenters, making,
in all, but 13,000 of any professed religion.—( Hear, hear.)
But, even of this small number, there were 5,000 persons with-
out any means of religious worship or instruction. The cause
of that destitutien was the insertion of a clause in all the
leases prohibiting the building of any school-house or chapel
for Dissenters. But there was no clause to prevent the em-
ployment of the houses on the collegiate estate for immoral
purposes.—( Hear, hear. ) There were 130 houses of that
character upon this estate of the Church. The Hon. Member
then read extracts from a correspondence between the Earl
D'Aubeney and Dr. Chalmers, in which the Noble Lord said
that a foreigner entering Scotland would be struck by a state
of things unknown to the most despotic State in Europe.
He then continued by saying he regretted being obliged to
have trespassed so long on the attention of the House ; but
he had no doubt that the result of this discussion would be to
induce the House to afford some effectual relief to those poor
creatures other than that which death supplied.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had heard the Hon. Member with
great attention, and he could assure him that he deeply and
sincerely deplored the events to which he had drawn attention.
But he feared that the subject was one which, while it had
been operated on by public opinion, was one also upon which
it would scarcely be possible to legislate. It should be remem-
bered that the Episcopalian form of religion prevailed in Scot-
land ; but even that fart should be no reason why the meanest
peasant in the country should not have the same protection
from the law as the largest landed proprietor. He admitted
that the people whose complaint the Hon. Member had stated,
had a just and irresistible claim for toleration in their
form of worship, and that they should have suitable places af-
forded them as sites on which to build their places of
public worship.—(Hear.) But while he would be anxious
to see this object carried out, on the other hand
lie would hope that one temple of worship should not be placed
in a position that might be regarded as one of offensive ri►alry
with other churches. He could state instances where a
Noble Friend of his, and other Noble Lords, had been very
liberal in granting sites on their estates for those places of
worship; he hoped their examples would be followed by many
others. But while he again should express his regret that it
was not possible to legislate on this subject, yet he did hope
that this discussion would, as the Hon. Member opposite had
said, operate beneficially, and that so useful an example would
be most extensively followed in Scotland.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from J. Thomas
Russel, of 37, Percy-street, Bedford-square. It was a very
re►pectful petition. 'I he petitioner complained that he had been
grossly slandered in evidence given before one of their Lord-
ship's Committees by George Ledbitter, William M'Culloch,
and John Pope, who were witnesses there. He complained
that his character and good name had been injured, and prayed
that their Lordships would grant him some mode of clearing
himself from those imputations, which he was fatly pre-
pared to do. By a recent decision of their Lordships' House,
he perceived that it would he a breach of privilege to bring an
action against those parties, and but for that he would have
done so. He moved that the petition be laid upon the table,
and next session he would move that it be referred to a Com-
mittee for investigation.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he would be very will-
ing to render the petitioner all the assistance in his power, but
he should have laid his complaint before the House at an earlier
period.
Lord BROUGHAM said the petitioner stated in his peti-
tion that it was not until last Saturday he saw the printed
evidence.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—But he knew the nature of
the evidence before them.

A NOBLE Loan said, that surely it was not too
late for a man to clear his character if unjustly accused.
He should certainly support the motion of his Noble and
Learned Friend, as their Lordships ought to throw
their doors open to persons who felt themselves aggrieved.
If it should turn out that the petitioner had been
unjustly traduced, and that his character had been injured, they
ought to allow him to bring an action against his traducers, and
make provision that by doing se he should not outrage the pri-
vileges of the House.

The LORD CHANCELLOR—ProbabIy any Learned
Friend is acquainted with this gentleman.—(Laughter).
A NOBLE LORD said he was a member of the Committee
referred to, and recollected that the persons named in the
petition gave evidence before it.
The Earl of WICKLOW said it did not signify who the
person was who had been aspersed. They should disregard
his position, and give him some remedy by which he might
clear his character, if it had been injured by evidence delivered
in one of their committee-rooms. The period when the cir.
cumstance complained of occurred was immaterial.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he only referred to a
particular date.
The Earl of HARDWICK said he had to present a petition
to the same effect ( we did not hear the name of the petitioner
or petitioners). The petitioner stated that he had purchased
a number of shares in the Doblin and Galwas Company at a
1 rge premium. in conAetitienee of the faveurable report of the
Board of Trade, and that he should suffer grievous injury if
the Bill was not allowed to proceed, in consequence of the way
in which the contract deed was signed. He therefore prayed
that the parties aggrieved might te heard at the bar of their
Lordships' I °use.
Lord BROUGHAM regretted that the petitioner had not
invested his money in a better project than the one he did.
However, he lal a remedy in his Learned Friend on the wool-
saels, who had funds at his disposal to reimburse parties who
had lent their money in such speculations.—(Laughter.)
The Earl ef DAL H °US! E :lefended the report of the Board
of Trade on the Irish Great Western, and considered that
the Board of Trade perfectly justified in the course it took. If
the petitioner had lost his money it was his affair, and not that
of those who made the report
The Earl of BESBOROUGH said, as he had moved for the
Committee which had inquired into the allegations
against the Company in question, he wished to
say a few words with respect to their report presented to the
House yesterday. The Committee reported that they had
heard evidence on the allegations, and had arrived at the opi-
nion that systematic frauds had been committed to obtain
signatures to the subscription contract; that no proper atten-
tion had been paid to the distribution of the letters of allot-
ment ; that letters had been sent to country postmasters that
they might be posted and sent to London as applications for
Shares; also, that a petition had been presented to the House
of Commons with respect to these frauds, but that it had been
withdrawn on account of the payment of 2501. to the party
who had petitioned that House, and that 5001. more was pro-
mised on the Bill passing the standing orders; that the sub-
scription deed had not been executed in a bona fide manner,
and at an amount insufficient to enable it to pass the House.
He doubted whether it was true, as had been stated, that
the same system was adopted in ether Railway Companies.
He blamed the Standing Orders' Committee for not paying
greater attention to the subscription deed. Unless they paid
great attention to this, no security would be afforded to the
public. The parties now stated by petition that they were
ready to insert the necessary number of names as security for
the amount required by law ; but this ought not to be done
after the Bill had passed the Standing Orders' Committee. He
regretted that parties had taken shares in the Company, and he
also regretted that the important railway accommodation which
was proposed in that part of Ireland could not be carried out by
what had occurred, and which could not be too highly repro-
bated, as it would have employed those who at that period of
the year stood much in need of employment. He should
therefore move that the further consideration of the Bill be
postponed to that day three months.
The Marquis of CL ANRICARDE was of opinion that the
debate should be adjourned, that the report and evidence
might be printed and placed in the hands of Noble Lords. He
did not hold one share in that or in any other Company. He
spoke as a disinterested party.
Lord BROUGHAM said that having been a member of
the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the allegations
set forth in the petition, he wished to make a few observations
on the question before the House. They should remember
that there were two different kinds of fraud that might be
practised in such a case—one on the Company by forging
names, for the purpose of obtaining shares, and the second for
perpetrating a fraud upon the House, viz., by an inferior agent
of the Company making a fictitious allotment for the purpose
of getting up a list of the number of shares taken. He would
tell them now in what way these frauds, being actually
coalesced, had been both practised on the Company and the
House. If a set of parties went abort to gamble in the
market—if surveyors, engineers, agents, &c., for the purpose
of obtaining places and employment, and having an interest in
promoting the Bill, either by fabricating letters or forging
names, foisted tip the names of Irish paupers, deceased trades-
men, parties resident in the West Indies, or other such ficti-
tious representatives, as shareholders in the company, that was
a gross imposture. But there was another course which was
equally effectual in committing a fraud upon the House. Par-
tit, issued a prospectus, conteinme a puffing account of a
scheme, and invited m he world to apply for shares. In poured
applieations from all quarters, and, even if they possessed them,
they took no means to see that those applications were genuine.
They shut their esee to the character of the references, they
never inquired into the respectability of any parties, and it
was just the same thing as if the fabrication had been practised
by the company to defraud the House. In the present case
970 persons applied for shares, out of which 11l only gave any
proof of solvency. Was that the course the London anti York
Company pursued ? When they got a letter without a re-
ference they threw it in the fire, but out of ill applications
made to the Dublin and Galway Company, only twenty-nine
were inquired into, out of which about one-half or fourteen
were totally unknown. No inquiry was instituted when
they had proceeded` so far, fearing, he supposed, that the
further they went the worse they would fare. Therefore
without knowledge, or attempting to know the nature of their
qualifications, shares were given to the other eighty. Amongst
others, a chimerical man, to whom the name of Tenbury was
accorded, hut who never had an existence, whose address was
stated to be Crosby Chambers, received an allotment of shares.
Another, called Baltlran, resident for the last seven years in
the West Indies, received thirty shares ; and Margaret Mere-
dyth, a pauper, the inmate of a workhouse, whose residence
was made to be Lower Tooting, Surrey, obtained shares to the
amouet of 7,5001., upon which a deposit of 751. was expected,
when, in reality, she had not 75 pence in the world !—( A
laugh.) Fourteen hundred and fifty applications were inquired
into, and took four hours in their examination, or at the rate of
about ten seconds each. Two hundred and forty recommenda-
tions were received from Hesseltine, the broker, founded
upon these applications, and such was the way of pro-
ceeding in this notable Company, the very reverse,
be it remembered, of the method pursued by the London
and York. There was a rule in law that if a person
had the means of discovering a fraud and did not avail
himself of it, he was responsible for his wilful negligence. That
principle was founded upon justice and common sense, and
was equally applicable to parallel cases like the present. As
to the scheme and its merits, per se, he had every reason to
believe it was a good public work. He had no objection to it
as a project brought forward to promote social and commercial
prosperity ; on the contrary, he believed that under better
auspices, with greater prudence and circumspection, it might,
in a future session, be reintroduced advantageously, if not
successfully. Nevertheless, the House was bound to protect
itself against fraud, and he, therefore, felt bound to support the
motion of his Noble Friend (Lord Besborough.)
Lord MONTEAGLE said that having been a Member of
the Committee which inquired into this Bill, he also wished to
offer a few remarks. When it was proposed on a former occa-
sion to go on with the Bill he advised their Lordships that it
would be better to deny all railway communication whatever
to the country than to refuse an inquiry into the allegations of
fraud. The question was referred to a Select Committee,
and when fully discussed the evidence adduced before it was
laid on the table of the House; anti he thought it so clear from
that evidence that mal.practices had existed, that he imme-
diately proposed the postponement of the Bill. What he now
wished to call the attention of the House to was, the course
that had since been taken. Their Lordships did not come to the
conclusion he desired, but referred the Bill, with
the report and evidence of the Select Committee, to
another Committee. This latter tribunal had taken further
evidence, and made a report to the House. Tho motion now
made by the Noble Marquis was, that the evidence taken be-
fore the second Committee should be printed before their
Lordships finally legislated on the Bill. He thought this pro-
position was fair and rational, was consistent with the pro-
ceedings and practice of the House, and with what was just.
He did not think that any doubt could Inc entertained of the
ultimate result, but still he considered that in a case charging
nothing short of personation and forgery, involving the ques-
tion of the grossest criminality, the House, after having them-
selves asked for the evidence, could not, consistently with jus-
tice, venture to decide absolutely without the production and
publication of that evidence. He therefore felt that the motion
of the Noble :'ellarquis being calculated to afford information,
and conduce to the promotion of justice, it was Isis duty to give
it his support.
Lord BROUGHAM—Undoubtedly, if the evidence goes to
rebut the evidence which was given before the other Commit-
tee, let it be brought forward. He, however, misunderstood
that report. He thought they had got additional evidence in
the other Committee. What he saids% as, however, that if the
new Committee —if the sesond Committee, had taken evidence
to rebut the evidence given before the other Committee, by all
means let them have it. They had carried the case further,
but he thou„ ht they should have an opportunity of hearing
it.— (A Noble Lord said ti at in that case they would have to
hear counsel at the bar of the House.) Oh no, if they allowed
counsel to be heard at the bar of the House, he considered that
that would be an infraction of the orders of 1637, of far greater
consequence than any that had yet been committed.
Lord W A RNCLIFEE said that before they took any fur-
ther steps, they should hear tine evidence taken before the new
Committee.
A desultory conversation then ensued, on the point whether
or not they should wait till they heard the evidence taken be-
fore the other Cemmitte e, before they
came to a decision.
The debate was then adjourned till Monday.
PORTSMOUTH DIRECT RAILWAY.
Ti.e Earl of HARDWICK then brought up the report on
this Bill, and was proceeding to read it when he was inter-
rupted lay
Lord BROUGHAM, who rose to order, and asked if it was
a special report ?
Time Earl of HARDWICK—No ; it is not a speeial report.

Mr. HAWES said he deeply regretted that he should differ
from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and express his fear that
the hopes he entertained would never be realised ; for it had
been seen that while sites were liberally granted for
the erection of places for Roman Catholic worship—thwe for
the Dissenters were denied. He had also received petitions on
this subject, and their prayer fully established the fact that
there were many instances in that country also of the forget-
fulness by the landlords of the maxim that property had its
duties as well as its rights. The Honourable Member con-
cluded by saying he cordially concurred in the motion of his
Honourable Friend.
Mr. CARDWELL defended the conduct of the landlords
who had been alluded to, and contended that their acts had
not been dictated by feelings of religious intolerance.
Mr. RUBE felt assured that the Government would do all
it could to put an end to religious intolerance of this descrip-
tion in Scotland.

The Noble Lord then continued to read.
Lord BROUGHAM—This, my Lords, is the most extraor-
dinary proceeding I have ever witnei•sed.
The Earl of HARDWICK continued to read, and was again
interrupted by
Lord BROUGHAM. My Lords, I rise again to order. We
cannot now enter into the subject at all. Unless the Noble
Lord is about to make a motion on the_

The Earl of HARDWICK...No ; I will make rio motion on

Mr. SHEIL was sorry to see Scotland assuming a position
which betrayed a state of things similar to that existing in his
own country. The Seceders were i apidly increasing in Scotland,
and surely it was the duty of the Government to prevent that.
If the Government deemed it incumbent to grant a regium
donuni to Ireland, surely it would be an anomalous state of
things to refuse it to Scotland, or to grant it when it would be
too late.—( Hear, hear.) He knew it would be presumptuous
of him to say anything upon this subject ; but from all he had
heard and read in reference to it, he did think that though the
Hon. Baronet had said that legislation would be impossible as a
remedy, because a man could not be forced to give a part of his
estate, yet it would be very easy for the Government to provide
a fund far the purpose.
Mr. PRINGLE was of opinion that many of those disputes
existing in Scotland between landlord and tenant had been the
result of bad advice. There never would have been any mis-
understanding but for untimely and injudicious interference.
He would caution the House against giving too much credit
to ex parte statements which were often gross exaggerations.
He trusted that by forbearance and kindness harmony would
yet be restored to the Church of Scotland.

Mr. HINDLEY said he very much rejoiced at the separation
which had occurred in the Church of Scotland. It had excited
a wholesome spirit of religious zeal, and was attended with the
best effects. The sum of 776,0001. had been collected by the
Free Church of Scotland, of which 320,0001. had been em-
ployed in the erection of churches. He thought it right to
divest religion as much as possible of mere pecuniary consider-
ations, and objected to making the clergy the mere tenants
of the State, so that the great look-out was, not the
promotion of the interests of religion, but to obtain
a good benefice. He regretted the conduct of many noblemen
and landed proprietors towards the members of the Free
Church. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had defended the
Duke of Buccleuch, but he thought the conduct of that noble-
man was not dictated in the true spirit of Christianity, and
that he might have acted more nobly than by refusing a site
for a Free Church chapel, because some of the supporters of it
had abused him. When that Noble Duke saw that many of
his own tenants were anxious to obtain a place of worship, ho
should have shown them that he was for freedom of conscience,
and evinced a desire to see them worship their Creator accord-
ing to their religious belief, by selling the land to them. When
the Earl of Cawdor was applied to for a site, he refused any
other than one on some waste lands, and provided that the
chapel should be built of wood, to be removed upon three
months' notice. Surely such conduct as this was rather calcu-
lated to exasperate than restore harmony in Scotland.
After a few words from Mr P. BORTHWICK and Mr. P.
M. STEWART the subject dropped.
Mr. EWART then gave notice that he would postpone the
following motion until Monday next. 1. That a statement be
made, on the part of the Government, of the condition and
prospects of such educational establishments as are supported
wholly or partially by a vote of this House. 2. That it is ex-
pedient that the formation of public libraries, freely opened to
the public, be encouraged. 3. That it is expedient that schools
for the training of masters be more extensively promoted.
4. That it is expedient that appointments to the subordinate
offices of Government be made (as far as possible) by ex-
amination of the merits of the candidates for such offices.
LIGHT GOLD.

Mr. HUME then, in pursuance of notice he had given, said
he wished to call the attention of the House to the loss to the
public by light sovereigns ; and that some offices should be
appointed by the Government to receive light gold at the in-
trinsic value, according to the number of grains deficient
in the average weight, and not allow the loss of six-
ience mwe or less, to the holder of the coin, accord-
' ,
leg to the will of the person who is to receive the coin.
No man in Scotland or Ireland lost a penny by gold, and it
was not fair that the people of England should be made to
suffer. It was nothing less than a system of plunder upon the
working classes. It was owing to the neglect of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer that such a thing took place, and he
ought to be called to account fur it. He maintained that the
Government, in the case of light gold, ought to bear the loss.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving the resolution.
Mr. SPOON ER seconded the motion. He considered the
Hon. Member had referred to the working classes, but there
was another important class that suffered—the small tradesmen
and shopkeepers. They were obliged, in the course of busi-
ness, to take light sovereigns as full weight, and when they
parted with them at the Bank, or to the small dealers, they were
obliged to lose at least fourpence in every sovereign. With the
losses and inconveniences attending on these light sovereigns,
the value was often reduced tenpence or a shilling. He con-
sidered the Government ought to be made to bear
the loss. There ought to be places in every town,
regularly appointed, where gold could always be changed
at its intrinsic value. But this was only a small part
of the question. The question was one of the widest
character, and involved the whole question of the cur-
rency. He was sorry that the two Right Hon. Baronets con-
nected with the Government were not present, as the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, on a previous
occasion, in reference to a book published in Birmingham on
the currency, said he believed there were only two men in Bir-
mingham that could write so much nonsense. Now he (Mr.
Spooner) adopted all the leading views of that book, and was
prepared to maintain them against that Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He would, however, only call their attention to a few
facts, illustrative of what had been called so much nonsense.
In 1797 a measure was passed, which the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary of the Home Department had called a fatal
measure. That measure was the act of Mr. Pitt, and by its ope-
ration they were enabled to raise means to carry on the great
war subsequent to the French Revolution, supporting the Bri-
tish arms in all their efforts, till their standard was planted on
the falls of Paris, after the battle of Waterloo. The policy
of that measure had bean denounced by a disciple of Mr. Pitt,
though there was a very scarce book, which supported the
principle of that measure in a very able manner, and the argu-
ments of which ought to be in the hands of every Hon. Mem-
ber. It was entitled " Graham's Corn and Currency "
(Laughter)—a book which was as plentiful as need be one day,
but all on a sudden disappeared, no one knew why, until at
last it was extremely difficult to obtain a copy at all. That
measure, the act of Mr. Pitt, led to an extensive issue of paper
money, without which it would have been impossible to carry
out the gigantic operations of the country at that time. The
Hon. Member then referred to the evils which had arisen from
1797 up to 1819—the very year when Sir Robert Peel's, then
Mr. Peel's, famous Bank-note Restriction Bill was passed—in
suddenly restricting the paper currency. The measure—that
of 1819—was really to be called a fatal measure, and one that
had been most ruinous in its operations. Ile was not one of
these who thought it was not right tochange the character of the
coin ; but by doing so, when they took the single standard of
gold, they had inflicted a heavy penalty on the country. In
addition to this, they went on to say that though the landlords
might change their estates, they at the same time were doing an
injustice
possibility of ever
principles on which this country ought to
be governed. He held in his hand the ablest book that had
true
eties by preventing the
reversrbtnie to a
ecinengt o thewritltlen on the subject ; and in that book these prin-
ciples were laid down. In 1819 this Bill was passed, in 1820
the pressure was felt, in 1821 it began to be insupportable, and
in 1822 Lord Castlereagh came down to the House, and stated
that it was impossible to return to cash payments. Then came
the evanescent prosperity of 1824, and after that, on the
of the Exchequer coming
downto the
in-
fliction of the weight again, the terrible reflux of 1825. Well
dict he remember the Chancellor
4,,e,nadawni
and stating, in the most
that House of the
glowing picture
prosperity of the country._ and asserting that it was
founded
on
a
rock. What took place? In the spring following the same
Right Hoe. Gentleman came down to the House, and in the
most doleful strains complained that it had all passed away.
Again the same thing occurred in 1828—prices had risen, a
state of prosperity
had returned, the completion of the mea-
sure took place. Again the gold left the country, and then
Horseena h adin curtl 8 b
through a long period came the struggle again prices fell to
the level of the Continent, the gold returned, and there was
again a partial return to prosperity. The gold left again, and
'l4" - •
•distress ensued. 'file same Course had been going on
ever since, and lie earned the landed gentry, on the authority
of his Right Hon. Friend ( eiir J. Graham), that either the
rents must be conformed to that, of the Continent, or the
standard must he conformed to the rate of rents. At the
standard of 31. 17s. 10141., prosperity had never been long
continued in agriculture,
kmanufactures, and commerce toge-
ther. When the reflux to: place commerce took the lead,
then manufactures, then agriculture; but the prosperity of
agriculture
mediately left the country, and a panic ensued. This would
be, and must be, the consequence of attempting to carry oil
this struggle.
A new race. would be called into ex-
istence, by the great profits of the capitalist. Old
forms would disappear, new ones would arise, and a complete
revolution in the value of property would take place, and lie
warned the Right Hon. Baronet that if the system succeeded,
it would be productive of evil at the best, and if it failed, it
would bring on such a panic as never occurred before. Im-
perfect as his views were, they were honestly felt, and were
formed after a careful consideration of the subject since 1810.
He would not, however, take up their time any longer, but
conclude by seconding the motion.
The CHANCE LLLOR of the EXCHEQUER confessed
that he had not formed the idea when he came down to the
House that the subject would run over such an extensive range
as it had done under the Gentleman who last addressed the House,
embracing, as it did, a period of nearly half a century. He
would not, however, travel beyond the motion before the House.
A proclamation was made its 1t313, calling ; t
the light

THE SUN, LONDON, SA.TURIJAI 'MORNING, JULY 26, .0145.

reigns. The Honourable Gentleman must be aware that
since 1816, no notice whatever bad been taken of the depre-
ciation of the light sovereigns, and so great at length had be-
come the clamour in consequence of this evil, that a memorial
was signed by all the bankers and principal men of the kingdom,
calling upon the Government to redreSs the grievance. At
the moment the change took place, in compliance with that
application, preparations to a large extent were made in the
Mint to supply the amount of coin that would be required.
With regard to the poor, he denied that no measures were
taken to guard against the loss they sustained, but he would say
that no measures theycould adopt would remedy the evil. It was
a hardship he admitted, but it was impossible to apply a remedy
where frauds were so easily effected. He should be very glad
to give an opportunity of weighing light sovereigns in every
town in the kingdom, but, when it was recollected that no less
than .500,000 sovereigns were annually depreciated from tear
and wear, he said that the complexity of the machinery requi-
site to carry such a proposition into effect, was a sufficient argu-
ment against its adoption. The Post•office accepted every
light sovereign, subject to the deduction of 3d. each. He
trusted, in conclusion, that the same occurrence which happened
in 1842 would never happen again, and that every future Go-
vernment would take care to give notice that such sovereigns
were not a I,gal tender.

Mr. WILLIAMS never expected that any one would have
risen in that House to give them another dissertation on the
Birmingham system of currency. He would not now follow
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Spooner) through the argumeets
which he b!...ight forward, but confine himself to the subject
before the House. With respect to the difficulty pointed
out by the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer, of finding persons in the various towns of the kingdom
to undertake the business of weighing sovereigns deficient in
weight, he considered it was totally unfounded, for any banker
in those towns, or the persons to whom the taxes were paid in
the district, would, for a small consideration, perform such a
duty. The loss on each sovereign on an average was 23.0, now
the loss to the public on the present arrangement was 6d., and
sometimes a Is., and it was net unusual to find sovereigns of
full weight being rejected unless the reduction was submitted
to. After the Ist of January, 1::441, sovereigns were sold as
bullion, and only 31. 16s. 610. being given per ounce, .11/0.
was lost upon every ounce of the 3,000,000 sovereigns then
called in, and something was necessary to prevent the recur-
rence or continuance of so serious an inconvenience.

Sir ROBERT PEEL regretted very much that he had not
been present during the commencement of the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, not from curio-
sity, but interest in everything that fell from such a talented
Gentleman. It was a pity that he had not given notice of his
intention to second the motion of the Member for Montrose, as
Honourable Gentlemen would have then been aware of the
prospect of an amusing disquisition on the Birmingham system.
However, from the:few audibly urged arguments of the Hon.
Member, he could say that he (Mr, Spooner) had proved him-
self a worthy representative of the opinions of Birmingham.—
( Laughter.) But the Honourable Member had assumed a
rather inconsistent position in the course of his latter observa-
tions. He had traced the whole question and course of the
currency, from the monetary transactions in 1797 to the
final change in 1844, and had said that in the ear
1832 the greatest distress prevailed; at which period
the Marquis of Londonderry proposed an extension of the
currency. The prosperity that followed this change was,
they were told, tempora, y and delusive, and had been f illowed
by a ruinous depression in the year 1825, caused by the change
in the value of the currency, arising from the large issue of paper.
But it would have been supposed that If the Hon. Member at-
tributed the distress at that period to this unlimited issue of
paper, he would have concluded that a still greater crisis
would have ensued from the adoption of a system which would
cause the issue of inconvertible paper. As to the authority of
Mr. Alison, whom his Hon. Friend considered a paragon of
philosophers, he would quote one sentence from that authority,
to show what credit should be given to his views, and he
thought that pamphleteer and his ,Honourable Friend the
Member for Birmingham would Male a fair couple—
Castor and Pollux—in the expression of their unique
opinions.—( Loud laughter.) Mr. Alison, after intro-
ducing a few curious original apothegms, advised that paper
should be paid in gold, according to the standard value of the
metal, so that notes issued at the rate Of 3/. 16s. 10,1-d. per
oz. might afterwards receive payment at the rate of 61. or 71.
per oz I And when forsooth the costs ran
_up to the value of
101. per oz., which under such a system it very speedily would,
the banker need not pay in gold, and of course he would only
have to depreciate the value of paper; and raise that of gold, to
render himself virtually irresponsible.—( Loud laughter.)
Really such arguments were absurd, and he could scarcely de-
scribe his surprise at hearing the Hon. Member subscribe to
such opinions. As he said before, he hoped the Hon. Mem-
ber would, on another occasion give notice, of his intention to
speak, and he for one would like to be present and listen to him.
Mr. J. STEWART said he trusted the present debate
would lead to some efficient and satisfactory change in the
arrangements for specifically correcting the monetary system.
Mr. NEWDEGATE was rejoiced that the attention of the
House had been called to the state of the currency. The
effects of a metallic currency were every day felt more and
more stringently. There had been spread abroad so strong a
feeling in favour of Sir Robert Peel's currency policy that it
was looked upon as a sort of treason to impeach it. But the
fact could not be denied, that it was impossible to go on
paying the interest of the national debt in the present cur-
rency. If free trade principles were to be carried out with
the present monetary system the,greatest evils must be ex.
petted. He had not intended to trespass so long upon the
House this evening, but he would take an opportunity next
session of bringing the attention of Parliament to the subject.—
( Hear, hear.) The effect of the present law was to give a pre-
mium to the money lender at the expense of the rest of the
community.
Mr. MUNTZ said that he could not understand how his
Hon. Colleague could go the length he had done, of abolishing
all metallic payments. He did not think that his Hon. Friend
had shown his usual discretion in bringing forward a currency
debate on this question. He thought that currency had
nothing at all to do with it.. He wished that the standard should
be fixed in silver. He had himself often seen women with
children in their arms unable to get food, in consequence of
not being able to get change for their gold. He thought that
the object of the motion was a very proper one. He thought
it much better that they should have 11. rotes than that they
should be rubbing sovereigns together to the loss of the poor,
who would lose 6d. in consequence of their bein; light. He
hoped the Government would well consider the matter, and
introduce some measure which would enable the poor to avoid
`.his loss.
After a few words from Sir W. CLAY,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it

Majority against the motion
Mr. SPOONER said he did not intend to speak in favour
of any remedy for the present difficulty but he did say he was
still of the same opinion he before expressed upon the question.
SUPPLY.

On the motion that the Speakbr do leave the Chair, and the
House go into Committee of Supply on the Colonial Estimates,
Mr. TUFFNEL said he would wish to call the attention of

the House to the regulations lately issued with regard to the
compulsory disposal of lands held in the Island of Ceylon, and
purchased from the Governor of that 'colony by the members
of the civil service, and the reflections that had been east upon
their character as public servants in the Governor's minute,
dated the 14th February, 1844. He held before him a state-
ment of the quantity of land so circumstanced, in the different
years from 1838 to 1842, and he found it to be as follows :
In 1838, the quantity of land in that position was 10,000
acres; in 1839, 39,000 acres ; in. 1840, 42,000 acres;
in 1841, 78,060 acres; and, in' 1842, which was
the latest period to which his information came
down, it was 48,500 acres. Now,':he did contend for it,
that it would be a great hardship upon the officers of the
civil service who had purchased this land, and had brought it
to a high state of cultivation, should they be ordered either
to sell the property they had so acquired, or resign their situa-
tions as public servants. He thought it right to read a re-
monstrance whch the colonial servants had addressed to the
Noble Lord at the Head of the Colonies, in which they state,
that the Government had encouraged them to engage in agricul-
tural pursuits, and not unfrequentl. participated in their profits
They then expressed a strong hope that the Noble Lord would
not interfere with them, and that n, regulations such as those
sent out from the Colonial-office would be persevered in, as they
would have the effect of involving them in great loss and sa-
crifices. The minutes of the Government had been printed
and published in the papers of India, and articles of the most
insulting nature, in consequence, written, reflecting on the
civil service. If there had been carelessness in the manage-
ment of the colony, it was the Governor's own fault ; and what
business had the Government now to come forward and reflect
on those who had been engaged in the civil service ? The No-
ble Lord (Lord Stanley), if he sent out the dispatch which he
did, censuring the civil service, on the allegations contained
in the Governor's minute, he acted very unfairly towards the
parties who were reflected on. The Hon. Member concluded
by proposing his motion.
Mr. HOPE said it was not his intention to justify that
minute, as it was not published under Lord Stanley's direction.
The dispatch was not the same as the minute; it was not
founded on ;the minute, being different in some essential par-
ticulars. The dispatch of the Noble Lord reflected on the
junior members of the civil service. The Noble Lord, as well
as his predecessor in office, had received repeated communica-
tions settinc, forth the carelessness and inattention of that
branch of thee service. The charges 'were not new ones, but of
an old date; for all parties connected with that island for
many years had complained of the mariner in which mem-
hers of the civil service had neglected their public
duties for their private interests. All parties there
holding civil offices took an oath not to engage in any
trade unless licensed by the Government so to do. That
rule still existed. In 1833, a reduction was made in the sala-
ries of the officers, the consequence of which was that those
officers engaged extensively in trade, and the regulation be-
came indispensable. Those parties were allowed to export,
but not to grow cinnamon, and the reason of it was, that they
said they could not make remittances to this country without
so far engaging in the cinnamon trade. He would oppose the

motion.
Lord EBRINGTON supported the motion, and believed
the facts stated by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Tuffnell) were

perfectly correct.
Dr. BOWRING thou ht a more satisfactory explanation
should be made by the Government respecting the regulations
issued as to the forcibly sending land into the maret, and
their compulsory disposal of it at a great depreciation.
Mr. AG LIONBY considered the speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies as calculated
to irritate rather than allay the wounded feelings of those
parties, injured by the tyrannical order of the Government
of Ceylon. And as to his casting censure on the
Governor of that island, it appeared that the only fault in that
officer was his publication of an unjust and cruel order, whose
publicity had been forbidden by the Colonial-office at home.
Mr. HOPE explained that he meant to cast no blame
whatever on the Governor of Ceylon.
Mr. C. BULLER considered that a case of great hardship
had been made out, and that .if the course pursued by Lord
Cornwallis in his Government. of India had been pursued in
the island of Ceylon, all these unjust occurrences would have
been prevented. At the same time he admitted that the
Governor of the island was above all suspicion of being actuated
by any insidious motives ; he had known him personally for a
considerable period, and regarded him as a most humane and
exemplary man.
Mr. TUFFNEL briefly explained, and the subject dropped.
After a desultory conversation on the subject of the House
going into Supply, which Mr. BILOTHERTON opposed in conse-
quence of the liveness of the hour (a quarter past twelve)—
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER consented to
postpone it till Monday at five o'clock.
The House then went into Committee pro forma, and im-
mediately after resumed.
BRAZILIAN SLAVE TRADE BILL.

Sir ROBERT PEEL fixed Thursday next for the second
reading of this Bill ; and, in answer to Mr. Aglionbv, said
that he would take the vote on the New Zealand question on
Wednesday next.
DEATH BY ACCIDENT COMPENSATION BILL.
Mr. BOUVERIE moved that the report on this Bill be
received.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL opposed the motion,
whereupon the House divided, when there appeared
For the Bill
Against it
Majority against the Bill
LIBEL BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the Action for Libel
Bill, which was read a third time, and the House then resumed.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
Souse adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock