The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-05 00:00:00

TR,E ,SITNS.LONDON, ,TITESDAY „gVENING, MARCH 5, 1844,

as discourteous towards him. He was anxious to answer
all the points the Hon. Member had brought forward,
but he thought the best opportunity of doing so was
in a Committee of Supply. With regard to the Com-
mittee which the Hon. Member had moved for with re-
.spect to the clothing of the army, it was only necessary
for him to observe that a Committee had sat upon that
subject, and it was considered by that Committee that
the clothing of the army could be better performed under
the supervision of the colonels of each regiment than by
any general order. With respect to the forces to be kept
up in the colonies a Committee had also sat upon that
subject, and at the present moment there was a smaller
force in all the colonies than was recommended by that
Committee. As to the yeomanry cavalry he thought
that subject could be much better discussed in a Com-
mittee of Supply.
Mr. WILLIAMS then withdrew his motion.
_

- . . . .
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion-
Against it
Majority against the motion -7-Z9
The House then resolved itself into a' Committee,
Mr. GREENE in the Chair.
- ARMY ESTIMATES.
Sir H. HAIMINGE then rose to submit to the Coin-
mittee the vote for the army estimates, and in doing so said
he would follow the usual course of explaining the dif-
ference which existed in the Wite for the present year
and that of last year. The most important vote was
the first, that for the whole of her Majesty's
land forces, and he would therefore enter into some
explanation of, it. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member'
for Rochdale, and the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last,
talked as if the standing army was kept up for the
purpose of enforcing the great amount of taxes. But
that was not the case. •The standing army was kept tip
in order that they might be able to afford relief to the
troops 01.6E4 The army of 'all ranks consisted of
100,295 it-I°' Of this number there were 30,000 in the
East -vitro were 5,000 officers, and 5,500 non-
comiiii'sioned ers. 'ln 1842 the number amounted
to 122416, and it, certainly was the intention of her
Majesty's Government to make a reduction, but the
estimate had. scarcely passed the House when the events
which took place in Caubul rendered it necessary 'to -
send six battalions to India. In the following year it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government, as he
had declared in moving the estimates, to make a re-
duction of 3,500 men, and 2,000 were reduced last year.
That course would "have been pursued in the present
year, but the state of affairs 'in India was such that nit-
withstanding the six battalions sent out the Governer-
General was not able to send home the three regiments
which ought to have been sent to England in return.
That disappointment, connected with other circum-
stances, caused the Government not to make that re-
duction which he admitted and declared it was their
intention to make. But the expense of the 30,000
men in India, which amounted to about 1,000,000/,
was borne by the East India' Company. He
thought he should. be able to show the Hon. Mein-
her for Coventry that the force kept up this year was riot
for the sake of having a standing army in this county, I
but to give our forces abroad that relief to which they
were entitled. Every Government had sanctioned the
principle of regiments being five years at home and ten
years abroad. In the year 1842 there had been mdre
than thirty-two regiments abroad upwards of ten years,
and the Government thought it their duty to relieve
those with the ?greatest expedition. Between the years
1837 and 1842, a force of 21,000 men had been raised hy
the Government of Lord Melbourne, owing to circuin-
stances in Canada, ,China, &c., and, in addition to that
force, Government determined to convert nine depots
into seven battalions, and send them abroad to the various
colonies to relieve the regiments there. There were still
upwards of fourteen regiments in India 'that had been
more than ten years abroad, and it was of the
utmost importance that they should be speedily
relieved; that relief, which should be given periodically,
could not be afforded without a corresponding force, at
home, and it was for that purpose, and not to keep up a
standing army, that they had those forces. The 13th
Regiment of Infantry, which was commanded by Sir ;R.
Sale, had been in India upwards of twelve years. It was
on its march to Sukkur, in Sinde, where it might have
to encounter an enemy ; and the 55th Regiment had
been abroad twenty-two years, and now he asked was
that proper? The Hon. Member for Coventry had e-
ferred to the state of -the army in 1822, and seeme to
say there was at present a, very effective force. If he
numbered the general officers among the effective port on
of the' army, he (Sir Henry Hardinge) regretted to
I
say that but five of those officers, from their g at
-age, could be numbered among the effective for es.
He would now call attention to the more effective r-
tion of the army. In 1822 there were 396 gen ral
Officers, now there were 171, being a diminution of 2 5;
the half-pay officers then amounted to 771; they were w
1360. The foreign half-pay officers in 1822 were' 97 in
number; theywere now only 466. La 1822 there were a to-
gether 12,019 officers, whose pay, including emolum is
to their wives, amounted to 1,651,0001. In the present
year the number of officers was 5,032, while their Pay
&c., came to 909,0001., showing a reduction of 742,000/.
1
The saving in the reduction of pensioners amounte to
322,0001. Upon these two items alone, the Chelsea n-
sioners and the officers of the army, there had be a
reduction of 1,100,0001. It was not this Government
alone, or the Government of the Duke of Welling n,
but there had been a general endeavour to effect a e-
duction in the expenditure. Ile would now procee to
the ordinary part of the estimates. The first vote as
that for 100,295 men, the expense being 3,200,0001. is
was 187,5231. less than the amount last year. The di • •
nution, however, was only an apparent one, occasio ed
by the transfer of a part of the expenditure to the e m-
misariat. For the last three or four years there ad

On the question 'that the Order of the Day for the
House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, be
read,
Mr. H. BAILLIE wished to know, whether there was
any intention on the part of the Government to bring
the subject of military pensions under the consideration
of the House. If the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer an-
swered in the affirmative, he would leave the subject in
his hands and not proceed with his motion.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the question was one of
considerable importance. At the present moment the
Government were collecting a vast variety of useful in-
formation by which more accurate data could be ob-
tained, and by which Government could come to a more,
accurate opinion. The course that the Government were
now pursuing was only following the footsteps of the
preceding Government. He could assure his Hon.
Friend, without pledging himself to anything, that as
soon as the information the Government was collecting
was completed, it was his intention to bring the whole
übject under the consideration of the House.
. Lord HOWICK felt no small surprise and sorrow at
the answer that had been given by the Right Hon. and
Gallant Officer to the question that had been put to him.
He thought that the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
ought to have been in a situation to have stated some de-
cided course that was intended to be adopted by the
Government, considering that he had been nearly two
years and a half in office. The answer he had made was
calculated to raise expectations, which, if not fulfilled,
might be attended with the worst results. He (Lord
Howick) had some . little experience in the office that
was now filled by the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer,
and from that experience he was sure that there could
not be any difficulty in giving the information required.
—(Hear, hear.) The House' and the country, he
thought, had reason to complain of the conduct of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. His manly and straightforward
course would have been to have stated at once the course
the Government intended to pursue.—(Hear.)
Sir HENRY HARDINGE did not consider himself
entitled to the *taunts of the Noble Lord. He had stated
that he believed the course the Government were about
to pursue was in accordance with the proceedings of the
late Government, and he came to that conclusion from a
letter the Noble Lord himself had left in the War-office.
That letter recommended the adoption of the course the
Government were now pursuing.
Lord HOWICK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
answer might have been well-founded if it had been last
year, or the year before. With respect to the letter to
which the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had referred,
it was not with reference to projected pensions, but with
respect to the discharge of men who were young upon
registered pensions.
. Dr. BOWRING regretted that estimates of se large an
amount, and of such extreme importance, were not re-
ferred to a Select Committee, because, unless such a
course were adopted it was impossible that these esti-
mates could be well considered. Added to this, he
thought it was not right or becoming of that House to vote
away such large sums of money when there were only
about forty members present.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved if the proceedings of that House, when voting
away the public money, were made more public, the
greatest good would result.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD could not let this
subject drop without calling the attention of the House
to the unconstitutional nature of the immense standing
army that was kept up. They had 48,405 rank and
file ; they had 6,000 marines on shore, which made up-
wards of 54,000; then they had 10,000 pensioners,
making 64,000. The volunteer force was 14,000. The
Irish constabulary was 9,000, making the whole force
combined 87,809. Then there was the artillery and ma-
rines, of which' he had no knowledge. Now, he would
ask the Government and the House, whether it wits ne-
cessary to keep up such a force ? If it was neces-
sary, why, he would ask, was it so ? Were the people
disloyal to the, Sovereign? He was perfectly convinced
there never was a Sovereign on the throne of England
to whom the people were more attached. Were the
people disloyal to the Constitution? No. . They were
only desirous of having the benefit of the Constitution?
—(Hear, hear.) Was it necessary for the protection of
life and property that this immense army should be kept
up? If it was, then he wanted to know what was ,the
cause? The reason was this—that justice was not done
to the working classes. He did not speak of political
rights. He spoke of the condition of the working classes.
The Government and that House did not do justice to
the working classes. They legislated for other interests
than that of the poor man, and the consequence
was, that they, were obliged to keep up
this large army to keep the people in subjection.
In the fifteenth century the poor were expelled from the
land, which was seized by the aristocracy. At a subse-
quent period the poor-laws were established, to give the
poor man a compensation for what he had lost. That
law had now been altered so as to deprive the poor man
of that right, by denying him any relief except in the
last state of destitution; at the same time they did this
they kept up the corn-laws. These were the causes of
insubordination and discontent. Another cause was the
enormous amount of taxation, and •the way in which it
was levied. At present the taxes were paid in a greater•
proportion by the poor than by the rich. The same
reasons for discontent prevailed in Ireland, where the
poor-laws-were also still more inapplicable to the dispo-
sition and circumstances of the people. No wonder
there was such discontent in Ireland, or that one of the
uses to which their standing army was applied was the
levying of the poor-rates from the people. He was the
advocate of education, but if they educated the people
without giving them the means of living, they would only
be increasing their discontent. In the present circum-
stances, and in the manner in which the poor were
treated, he did not deny that they required an army;
but he did deny that such an army would be required if
the poor were treated as they ought to be. If they
looked at the early. periods of their, history—periods of
which they might boast—a large standing army was not
required to keep the public in subjection. In the days
of King Alfred, the constitution that he formed was
sufficient to keep the country in order without a stand-
ing army. In those days the sheriff, with the posse
comitatus, was able to maintain the peace of the country.
But now, they were afraid to trust the people with those
arms in their hands, which they were then called on to
keep for the assistance of the civil officer. The discon-
tent altogether arose from the maltreatment of the poor.
A voluntary force taken from among all classes would
be a constitutional one. But their present voluntary
force was not a constitutional one, being entirely taken
from one class to keep the others in subjection. He was
aware that there were not enough Members in that
House to support him, in an effectual resistance to the
Government getting such an army. If the minority
that voted with him on the last occasion were resolved,
he knew that it was possible to delay the grants for that
army, for a considerable time ; it would be perfectly
practicable to do this; but it was not practicable for anin-
dividual to undertake to do such a thing. He was free
to confess that both out of the House and in it,
though he had raised the question of a standing army,
he had not met sueh a display of feeling as would justify
him in any prolonged attempt to resist the Government.
If he had met proper support he would not have spared
himself, but he would freely acknowledge there was not
that sufficient feeling outside the House to justify him
in making an effort of this kind. It would be a wasting
of the public time without any effect. These were the
feelings he entertained on the subject. But he was de-
sirous of expressing his opinion on the constitutional
question of keeping up so large a standing army. He
concluded by moving, as a resolution, " That the large
amount of the standing army now kept up for the public
service is contrary to constitutional liberty, and dan-
gerous to the rights of the people."
Dr. 'BOWRING seconded the resolution: It con-
tained a principle which he was not disposed to negative,
but on the contrary to support. In his opinion, with a
popular Sovereign, a popular Executive, and a popular
Legislature, there was no necessity for keeping up a
large standing army. He believed that a Government
was good to the extent to which it was supported by
public opinion, and bad in proportion to the necessity
of its employing military force. He had presented a peti-
tion from Bolton,complaining of the amount of the stand-
ingasimy.His constituents recognising the principle that
taxation and representation ought to go hand-in-hand to-
gether, and that in this House, so far from being associated
they were wholly alienated ; they protested, and he pro-
tested in their name against the application of the
money. they were called on to subscribe for the sup-
port of such a large standing army. He quite con-
curred with his Hon. Friend as to the small support they
received in that House, and the not yet developed opinion
out of doors. Still he was bound to say that there was
a growing discontent and want of confidence out of
doors, on the part,of the unrepresented millions who were
but ill satisfied with the proceedings of the Government.
Mr. FIELDEN said, that when Hon. -Gentlemen ob-
jected to the course pursued by his non. Friend the
MMember for Rochdale, they seemed to him to forget
from whose pockets the taxes were derived. It was not
becoming the House to refuse inquiry into the griev-
ances of the' people. Ire had sat upon the Hand-loom
Weavers' Comnaittee, and. it appeared that 100,000 per-
sons Were in a state of great distress—a number equal
to the slaves of the West Indies, for whose liberation
they paid 20,000,0001.—(Hear, hear.): The condition of
the working classes was neglected. They brought in a
Factories Bill, but there was nothing in it which would
prove'in the least satisfactory to those who worked in
factories. A Poor-law Amendment Bill.was also intro-

-private soldier, a pension so low, that; though it might
relieve the poor-rate, "it could not support the man. And
if limited service Was introduced, a better pension might
be given without increasing the expenditure of the
country. He (Captain Layard) thanked the House for
the kind indulgence they had granted him. No party
feeling had, or could actuate him upon such an occasion,
feeling, as he did,
.what every man in that House, what
every man in the country must feel, an anxious, asincere
desire, for the comfort, theliappiness, and the well-being
of those who, undismayed by the vicissitudes of climate,
undaunted by the sword of an enemy, maintained, as they
always had done, -the glory and independence of 'the
country.—(Cheers.)
Sir H. HARDINGE would endeavour, as briefly as
he could, to giveanswers to the several questions which
the Gallant Officer had put, and, in many respects, he
entirely concurred with the -sentiments of the Gallant
Oificer.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer- was aware
that the system of giving free discharges in 1825
had operated very 'usefully in reconciling families to
allow their sons to join the army.' teskles., the effect
had been 'useful to the public in another way, for
the saving- in pensions since 1829 had been equal to
half a million sterling:---(Hear.) With respect to the
bounties, and allowances to the recruits, he could only
answer that they were quite sufficient in cavalry regi-
ments, and he believed they were not inadequate in the
infantry. With regard to the absurd notion, which the Gal-
lant Officer had so properly endeavoured to remove, that
there was an intention on the part of the Government to
make use of regimental savings banks as a means of ascer-
taining bow far the payment of soldiers would be reduced,
he could assure the House that never was there any
such intention, and the soldiers themselves had given
the most substantial proof that the error was not very
generally _received.—(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed
with thePallant Officer as to the expediency of allowing
coals and candles to married officers in barracks.—
(Hear, hear.) He had been in communication on the
subject, with some of the most intelligent clerks. And
he was satisfied—(as we understood)—that it was ad-
visable to allow the coals and candles under the circum-
stances referred to by the Gallant Officer.—(Hear.)
In answer to a question from the Earl of SURREY,
Sir H. HARDINGE said, that although it was not
in all cases practicable to provide railway carriages for
the wives and children of married soldiers proceeding
with their regiments by railway, every effort was made
to afford them accommodation.

Mr. W. Wif,PAMS must acknowledge that all
the Right limitqurable Gentleman had said was very
clear. But yet- it did not satisfy him.--(Hear, and
laugh.)`•The -Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had
stated thaAtklW circumstances of the country required
an increase the forces; but he had not
stated wha those circumstances were.—(Hear.)
The
Gallant Officer had shown the necessity for
relieving the troops on foreign service. He (Mr. W.)
would do as much as the Gallant Officer to relieve those
troops. But there was another body of persons who also
stood in need of relief—the impoverished people of this
country, who had to pay all the expenses.—(Hear; hear.)
The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer must be aware in
what a state of starvation the people had lately been.
They were not so very badly off now.—(Hear.) But
they might go back to that again; or perhaps something
worse. There were no classes in this Empire, except those
who lived on the taxes, who were in a condition to afford
to the army more accommodation and comfort than they
had received for the last twenty-five years. We were
now in the twenty. eighth year of peace, and, according
to the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the expenditure last year was 53,600,000/. He (Mr.
Williams) said it was mere ; but, according to-the state-
ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that was the
amount. The Right Hon. the Seeretary at War said
that the dead weight had been reduced by the reduc-
tion-in the half-pay pensions. Why in the year 1818,
only three years after the war, the half-pay pensions
were 2,600,000/; this year they amounted to 2,200,0001.
He (Mr. Williams) rose for the purpose of proposing a
reduction of 20,000 men from the number proposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had shown. that the
number of men proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
adding those forces which were as much a portion of the
military as the Guards, was greater by 59,000 men than
the average of 1822 and 1823; greater by 41,000 thin
the average of 1836 and 1837; greater by 33,000 than
the average of the last 24 years. He therefore moved
that the number of men be reduced this year by 20,000.
Lord HOWICK did not rise with the intention of
supporting the-proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. He
believed that they were 'not prepared to make the re-
duction in the military force of the country which the
Hon. Gentleman proposed. But at the same time he
(Lord Howick) could not think the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite (Sir IL Hardinge) could rest his proposi-
tion for maintaining
.so large a force exclusively upon
the necessity for maintaining relief for our colonial pos-
Sessions. He entirely concurred with the Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer in saying that the pressure on the British
infantry of the line was greater than it ought to be. He
(Lord Howick) was persuaded that measures ought to be
adopted for the purpose of rendering relief more fre-
quent. He thought there were several measures that
might be adopted with this view. In the first place, he
retained the opinion which he had long entertained, that
much might be done by diminishing the propertion of
each regiment that was at home. He thought it was un-
fortunate that that description of force which: did not
feel the pressure so much were not required to take a
greater share of duty than they did at present, During
-the time that 'he had the honour to fill the' office of
Secretary-at-War, when the unfortunate insurrection in
Canada arose, he recommended the Government and
Lord Hill to send over two battalions of Guards to Canada.
That measure was adopted, and those Guards were now
come home, but he had not learned that any portion of
that. force had been sent to any of the other colonies.
Now he was far from saying that the regiments of the
Guards ought to take a share of the colonial service ex-
actly like the regiments of the line. _ But he did say
that-so far as service at short distances, and it healthy
climates was concerned, he thought that they should do
something. lie thought that two battalions of guards
should be stationed at Gibraltar, or in the Mediterranean,
as a reghlar arrangement. The officers and men in the
Guards had very great and remarkable advantages over
the rest . of the army. An officer in the
Guards rose to the rank of 'a general officer, .very much
more rapidly than the officers in other regiments. No
man could look through the- army list and not find that
out. He thought, therefore, that it was not too much to
ask:them. to take a portion of the foreign duty. 'Now if two
battalions were continually abroad, either in the Medi-
terrrnean Or in North America, to be relieved every two
years, he thought it would be a very good arrangement,
considering that- at present the time of the Guards was
passed between Windsor anti London. He thought, too,
that something more should be done by having a larger
proportion of marines. He thought a battalion of ma-
rines could be •employed with great advantage at Gib-
raltar, and would be found to be of great service if a
war were.to break out, and would also tend to diminish
the amount of colonial duty imposed on the infantry of
the line. • Allusion had been made to the subject of
pensions to soldiers. It had been said that aaoldier re-
turning after a long service, and worn out, had only six-
pence a day pension. Now he could not sit there and
allow that repreSentatibii to go forth without a word of
explanation. That was not the amount of pension to
which' a soldier was 'entitled, who was worn
out. It was. very easy to find fault with
measures which had been adopted formerly.—(Bear.)
Formerly the practice was, that a soldier •had no right
to retire from the- service on a pension, unless he was
unfit for the service. The practice was however altered,
and then the 'soldier cciiild retire, after twenty-one years
service, • on a pension of one shilling per day. This was
found te'lead to great inconvenience. In the first place,
men at the age of .thirty-nine frequently claimed the re-
tiring pension. The full pay was only twopence per day
more than the pension,; 'and the men would, of course,
rather have one shilling a day and do nothing, than one
Shilling and tWopence per day for active service. The
Right Hon. and. Gallant Officer, when serving under the
Duke of Wellington, endeavoured to check this system.
He had endeavoured to.prevent men from retiring at
thirty-nine years of age, unless those who were really
unfit for service. It was further ordered, that, the cer-
tificate of the regimental surgeon should be .no longer
deemed of itself sufficient, as it was well known
that commanding officers desired to have young
active men in the service. The soldier who
applied to be discharged on a pension, had 'to go to
Chatham and undergo inspection by a surgeon not in
connection with the regiment. He had likewise to ap-
pear before the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, who
should certify-as to his unfitness for military duty before
he received his pension. A great many complaints were
made by those soldiers desirous of obtaining their dis-
charge, of being afflicted with chronic rheumatism, which
although frivolous and ill-grounded, was often dif-
ficult to be disproved. When they had passed the ma-
gical period of 39, the chronic rheumatism was com-
plained of, and the pension applied for. In this manner
the pension list was every year swelling enormously, and
becoming an insupportable burden to the country.—
(Hear, hear.) Men, after a service of 21 Vat's, might
be receiVing a pension for 30 years after their discharge
—a pension, too, almost adequate to the
,fall pay of the
active soldier.—(Hear.) The best proof that many sol-
diers obtained their discharge on frivolous ,grounds was
the fact, that numbers of those- who hadnbtained their
discharge years age were now about to be put upon mi-
litary duty.
Sir H. HARDINGE--01-0 no; not military duty.
Lord HOWICK—Duty to a certain extent; but he
did not ahribute any blame to the War-office on that
score. It was impossible for that department to check
the evil whilst the inducement to commit it remained so
great. In order to guard against this abuse it was
necessary that the pension for mere disability should be
decreased, and upon their continuing a few yenrs more
in the service it should be increased. It was deluding the
public to say that men might be discharge& from the
army, worn out and shattered, on 6d. a-day, for he
might have a pension of is. a-day if his merits were
equal to it. Another great evil existed ' under
the fernier system. A. commanding officer might
report that the, znan applying for the pension
was a notoriqv .drunkard, yet if that man had
not fallen At*. the sentence of a court-
martial, he was entitled to the same pension as the most
deserving soldier,- This was represented to the Noble
Lord the Member for the City of London, whew Pity-
master of tra*rces. By virtue -of his office he was
then alsd, alaioekti of the Board of Commissioners of.
Chelsea' 11641 LO, and that Noble Lord had done-all in
his power to remedy it. When he (Lord Howick) came
into office he suggested (and his preposition met` the
sanction of Lord Hill), that in the event of the good
conduct of the soldier during his service he should re-
ceive the full pay, and should derive the full advantage
of the warrant, of his Right lion. Friend, and of the
good conduct warrant. Thus he would receive, not a
pension of 6d. a day, but of Is., Is. 2d., Is. 3d., or some-
times even Is. 4d., as the case might be. For his
,(Lord 119Wiek's) part, he would much rather inerease the
comforts of the soldier in active service, improve his
,
barracks, and give him a better and More &stable

been great difficulty in settling the commisariat ac-
counts, in consequence of the events in Canada.
Her Majesty's Government was of opinion that it was
practically a better arrangement that the commissariat
estimates should be kept in their own department tlhan
that they should enter into the general estimates of the
service. Another item was that of 2,0001. for librar}es.
At home there were 38 libraries, of which 17 wer in
Ireland ; and he believed that in the most remote station
a library would very shortly be established. he
I
ground of the Chatham Lunatic Asylum being in a d
a state, arrangements had been made for the purchasin of
some ground for building in the neighbourhood of o-
chester, and this would be included in the estimate of
the year. The vote for the staff exhibited an increas of
1,0001. The foUrth vote was that for the public a-
partments. There was no real inerease in is
vote, although there was a small apparent
one arising from the postage. There Was
no vote for the Trinity House, while for the Tridity
Asylum there was a small increase. In the volunther
corps there was a diminution of 2,000/. The fourteeilth
I
vote was that for the widows' pensions. In this i m
there was a small increase-8501. That increase ,as
attributable to the circumstance, that a very large n m-
ber of general officers, twenty-seven, he believed, in 11,
had died during the past year. In the compassionate
list there was a small increase. In the sixteenth vote, ror

Chelsea pensioners, there was a reduction of 13,2
The decrease in the number of pensioners this Year
about seven hundred. Ten thousand pensioners w re
enrolled, to be called out whenever circumstances mi ht
I
require the adoption of such a course. In I e-
land, where six thousand pensioners were enrolld,
he was happy to say the applications for exemption
amounted only to 170. The superannuation allowanes
amounted to only 13,0001. The charge for the whle
effective force, including all the items, was 5,984,0 0/.
He had now gone through the whole of the items. He
would be happy to give any explanations which the
Hon. Gentlemen might require. He could only state,
in i
that her Majesty's Government were
anxious, not only to maintain the efficiency of the arrilYr
but in everything which related to expense to obse*ve
the most strict and rigid economy. The Right Hhn.
conclusion,
Baronet then moved that 100,295 men should be fixed
as the standing force for the year. i
Captain LAYARD said, no doubt it would be in the
recollection of the House, that for the two last years,
upon the army estimates-being brought underliscussibn,
he had thought it his duty, a duty which he owed to title
service, to which he considered it an honour to belong,
to state his opinion of the immense advantage it would
be, that men should be allowed, to enlist for limited ser-
vice—(Hear, hear)—as by such means a very superior
class of men, he had no doubt, would enter the servibe,
and by such means a great deal of the crime which Was
now committed would be avoided. For nothing cold
be looked upon as a greater or graver offence than de-
sertion, which, alas, unhappily, existed to a great extent
in the army, and which arose from two causes—the first
and strongest of which was, a man after enlistment hav-
ing found that there was no chance-of escape from a ser-
vice for which he found himself totally unfit. Now, :in
the French service desertion was not so frequent, as mien
•nly served there for a given period. He (Captain
Layard) felt convinced that the parents of young men
in the middle classes would not feel that aversion which
was now felt in letting their sons enter the service, 'ns
then, if a boy entered at 18 and received his discharge 'at
28, he would be able to apply himself to any other call-
ing, which would not be the case at a later period of
life.—(Hear, hear.). It had been stated as a reason,
and it seemed at first sight an insurmountable one,
the expense of sending home any considerable number
of men, supposing the regiment to be abroad; but he
considered that the expense so entailed would be fully
met by not giving any pension to men who enlisted for a
limited time.—(Hear, hear.) And he (Captain Layard)
had every reason to believe that most men would remain,
particularly-if their regiment were abroad, the soldier
being generally much better off in-foreign climates than
he was at .... e-.though, of course, more exposed to the
vicissittiaeV eterate. Now, his (Captain\Layard's) opi-
nion upon this,siNect was formed upon his own personal
observation, and ha 4 since been confirmed by the opinion
of many able officers whom he had spoken to upon the
subject. And he believed few, if any, would disagree
with him, when he stated that one, whose judgment
upon this subject must lie one of .the very best, and
whose anxiety for the well-being of the soldier all mist
appreciate, agreed with him in that opinion the last
time he brought forward the subject. He alluded to the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary at War. He therefore
wished to ask that Right Hon. and Gallant Officer if
there was any chance of it being carried into effect.
And in the second, place, he wished to ask that Right
Honourable Baronet if it was ,in contemplation to in-
crease the bounty upon enlistment, as he .was well
assured, from personal observation, that the recruit,
finding himself in debt, very-often deserted, believing
that good faith had not been kept with him. He trusted
this would be amended, as it was, he believed one of
the greatest sources of crime. He, for one, begged to
thank the Right Hon. Baronet and those in authority at
the Horse Guards, for having, instituted savings-banks,
as he believed it would be of great use ' • and he con-
sidered the Gallant Officer the Member for Liverpool
deserved credit for having advocated it as he did, and
for having promoted it when in his power. He felt that
encouragement to steadiness and good conduct would
have the best possible effect ; and this was proved by
the great benefit that had been derived from the excel-
lent plan carried out by the Noble Lord the Member for
Sanderland with respect to the good conduct badges,
and which had led to the happiest results. He thought
that great good would accrue to the service if lance
corporals were to receive twopence a day, and lance ser-_
geants threepence a day, additional pay, as they, had a
great deal of duty to perform ; and, as in many instances
they had to attend school, they were put to considerable
expense. He trusted that those in authority would
allow a longer period for, furlongs, to be granted this
year, as none had yet been given ; and though it might
not make any material difference to regiments who re-
mained at home,yet to those who were likely to go abroad
ItWas of the greatestimportance, as many men could have
little chance of seeing their families again, for a very
long. time,. if ever. Before he sat down he must draw the
attention of the House to the very pitiful,:_in. short, to-
' tally inadequate pension which was now given to the

duced, but it was a Bill which it was impossible to
amend. • They could not make it acceptable to the
people. The first Bill wqs brought in for the avowed
purpose of making the lab'buring men more independent,
and had it that effect ? No, it had not. Hefelt confi-
dent that if they did not speedily do something to ren-
der more comfortable the condition of the people, they
would And it difficult to govern them. They were on
the brink of a volcano. He implored them to retrace
their steps. They were at present proceeding in a cir-
cle. When they got more taxes, they got more forces ;
and when they got more forces, they got more taxes;
and with the augmented taxes they got more forces
again.—(Hear.) But they must stop at length, The
country would not long endure such a course. If the
Right Hon. Baronet, gave them 'an assurance that he
would take the gyinarice. of the people into his copsi-
deliiiiiii;riohociy would iselitse to vote the-siipiSliei: