The Sun.
London, England, 1828-07-25 00:00:00

NATIONAL DEBT BILL.

On the motion for the third reading of the above
Bill,
Lord BEXLEY said, he wished previous to the
third reading of the National Debt Bill, to make a
few statements relative to the Report of the Finance
Committee, upon the recommendation of whom the
Bill now under their Lordships' consideration was
founded. That Report he considered one of the
most important financial documents that had ever
been made upon the subject, as it contained a mass
of the most accurate and detailed information res-
pecting the Public Income and Expenditure, and it
reflected great credit upon those who had the
framing of it, especially upon such Hon. Vletnbers
of the Legislature, who, from their official stations,
were more nearly connected with it—but yet, while
he gave them all the credit they deserved* at the
same time he could not assent to every principle laid
down in it. In that Report the Committee had un-
dertaken to recommend to the Government (upon
which recommendation the present Bill was founded)
to limit the sum to be applied for the reduction
of the National Debt to 3,000,000/. annually. To
that he would not object, and he entirely concurred
with the views of the Committee, that no solid
system for the redemption of the debt could be de-
vised by the operation of compound interest; and he
further considered, that no system could have been
invented that was likely to prove so effectual in its
operation as that which they had laid down. He
could not, however, concur with the Committee in
the views they entertained with regard to the in-
crease of the revenue above its present standard,
with a view to secure upon a more permanent and
extensive basis the Sinking Fund. The principle
which had regulated the conduct of the Legislature
qt 1819, when the Sinking Fund was settled, was,
that it ought to amount to a sum equal to one percent.
upon the capital of the debt. The principle of Mr.
Pitt, when he established the Sinking Fund, was
that the surplus should be invariably applied to the
work of redemption, and he believed that such
effective means for the redemption of the debt had
never been established ; and he believed that if the
Sinking Fund were made the subject of debate, and
discussed in'whatever shape it might be, no system
so effective could be devised as that established by
Mr. Pitt. Mr. Pitt's object, in establishing the
Sinking Fund, proceeded from three great causes.
The first of these causes was, to prevent the Na-
tional Debt from accumulating year after year, with-
out any fixed or permanent provision for its redemp-
tion ; the second was to justify the report of the
public credit, and to inspire a general feeling of con-
fidence in the security of the resources derived from
it; and the third was, ultimately to relieve the public
from the vast,debt which was pending over them.
The fund created for the purpose he had stated, had,
during the subsequent war, accumulated to a nominal
amount, which, in consequence of the vast expence
occasioned thereby, on the return of peace, it would
have been vain to expect to realise by a correspond-
ing amount of surplus revenue. But, whatever de-
ductions others might draw from the report of the
Committee, it had convinced him that the system
adopted byMr. Pitt had been proved solid and effi-
cacious, and far beyond the expectations. that were
raised of it at the time of its adoption; and he en-
tertained no doubt but that it would have accom-
plished all the objects for which it was created, had
it not been for the breaking out of that continual and
expensive warfare in which this country was un-
happily shortly afterwards engaged. But yet, not-
withstanding the main purposes of the Sinking
Fund were thus defeated, he doubted not but he
could show, that under the existence of that fund,
the subsequent situation of our financial resources
was much more cheering than it 'was before the war
broke out. In the year 1792, immediately preced-
ing that in which the war broke out,
The Public Income amounted to £18;900,000
The Expenditure of that year to

Thusleaving a Surplus of £7,832,000
The National income of the year 1802, after
the Permanent. Taxes, amounted to £32,778,000
The Expenditure of that year to ... 21,529,000
Leaying a surplps of„. , X 112244000
Three Milli °144 9d 4 WO Wel•ond the surplus of the year
IW. _

In 1804 the Income Was increased t 0.........
The Expenditure was also increased t 0...... 22,485,000

X 19,802,000
The Surplus, therefore, was

In 1913 the Public Income amounted to ~•"'BB4'°°°
The Expeoditore to ...„,...„.,, . 30,199,000

Leaving an increase Surplus of £23,186,000
He doubted that any man had a more difficult task
than he (Lord Bexley) had to perform in the year
1813, for it would be recollected that in that year
the contest had assumed a more interesting aspect;
and after so many glorious achievments of British
valour, led on by the Noble and Illustrious Duke op-
posite, hopes were entertained of bringing the war
to an honourable termination. The taxation had
then reached its limit, but he felt it more particularly

then his duty to.cill UpOn the country for the most
strenuous efforts, and in the, view which he then
took of the Sinking Fund, be thought he saw some
resource, and which views were subsequently con-
firmed. In the year 1813 the amount of the Sink-
ing Fund in the hands of the Commissioners was
nearly 16,000,0001. To this fund he was forced to
resort. He looked upon the amount as larger than
was necessary, or even'. convenient, as its expendi-
ture in the purchase of stock could scarcely fail to
produce an excessive accumulation in the Money
Market. He, therefore proposed to Parliament to
diminish the capital of the funded debt standing in
the names of .tire Commissioners, and, with the ap-
probation of .his Noble Friend then at the bead of
his Majesty's Government, he adopted the principle
of limitation to the accumulation of capital in the,
hands of the Commissioners. They reduced the
sum annually to be applied to the redemption of the
national debt to 8,000,0001.
In the year 1813 they provided for an Ex-
penditure of £100,437,000
In the year 1814 106,279,000
In the year 1815 92,135,000

Thus making the whole Expenditure of
the three years provided for amount to
the large sum of £303,851,000
independently of what was expended for the reduc-
tion of the National Debt. Notwithstanding that
astonishing expenditure, he felt anxious to state to
their Lordships, that, in the year 1822, when he re-
tired from the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the entire of the revenue amounted to 53,603,0001.,
and the expenditure for that year was between
32,000,0001. and 33,000,0001., ,leaving a surplus of
21,000,0001. to be applied, clear, and unincumbered,
to the public service. The, income, expenditure,
and surplus, of the five. years preceeding 1828, were
as follows :
Years. Income. - Expenditure. Surplus.
1823 62,550,000 57,677,000 4,882,000
1824.........64,365,000 59,456,000 4,908,000
1825 63,184,000 59,286,000 3,898,000
1826 58,754,000 58,422,000 332,000
1827 59,054,000 58,811,000 242,000
And including the taxes repealed during those years,
the real surplus of the capabilities. of the revenue
over the expenditure was as follows :
Years. Surplus. Taxes repealed. Amount.

1823 4,882,000 4,882,000
1824 4,908,000 3,799,000 8,707,000
1825 3,898,000 6,516,000 10,414,000
1526 332,000 9,159,000- 9,491,000
1827 242,000 9,182,000 9,424,000
Thus making the sum of repealed tax, for five years,
28,656,000/4 and the total amount of repealed
taxes, with the surplus revenue, 42,918,000/. ;
leaving an actual surplus, after deducting the re-
pealed taxes, of 14,262,000/. The Committee said
that they were not disposed to censure this reduc-
tion of taxes, in consideration of the relief which
was afforded to the country, and in circumstances
which appeared to require it. Neither was he dis-
posed to express any censure on the ground of this
repeal of taxes, because he believed that the cir-
cumstances of the country, and the state of its com-
mercial interests, required a great reduction of taxa-
tion at the periods when it took place. But he
earnestly recommended the Noble Duke to adhere
steadfastly to the present Sinking Fund of 3,000,000/.,
and to avoid any measure, whatever immediate con-
venience it might promise, which was calculated to
endanger it. He had said that in the three last years
of the war they had expended above three hundred
millions. No other nation in the world could have
made such an effort, and still less could any other
nation have been left after a war of this description,
in a situation which would permit it being scH
much, or so speedily relieved of its burdens, as this
country had been. Taxes had been rapidly taken
,off to the extent of 27,000,0001. a-year. He re-
commended
a solid system for the redemption of
debt, and he hoped that no temptation would induce
the Noble Duke to infringe upon the present Sink-
ing Fund. He had no fears as to the stability of the
national resources. The country was in a state of
progressive prosperity. The population was found
to be increasing in the ratio of about 11 per cent
yearly. There was no reason whatever to suppose
that the increase of wealth was proportionally less
rapid, and, supposing, which was highly probable,
that the revenue should increase in a similar propor-
tion, we should have an annual average increase
upon the present revenue of 700,000/. He did not
say that this increase would be visible every year,
but he thought it might very fairly be calculated
upon as an average increase. If their Lordships
would take the trouble to look into the detailed
statements of the consumption of different articles,
they would find that the ratio of increase cor-
responded very accurately with the proportion
he had stated. The article of tea was the
first instance he should select. In the year
1788 the consumption of tea in Great Britain was
13,000,000 lbs.; 40 years afterwards, in the year
1827, it was above 26,000,000 lbs. In this period
the consumption of the article had doubled, although
it is loaded with great additional duties during that
time. The increase in Ireland had been nearly in
the same proportion. The next article he should
advert to was tobacco. The consumption in Great
Britain of this article in 1788 was 6,877,0001b5.;
in 1827 it was 14.500,000 lbs. In Ireland the in-
crease had not been so great. It had only been in
the proportion of four to three. In brandy there
appeared to have been a diminution, but this was
compensated by a great increase in 'the consumption
of a spirit the produce of the British Colonies. The
consumption of rum in 1788 was 1,850,000
.gallons,
and in 1827 it was 3,900,000 gallons. The increase
on wine was not to a great extent. In 1788 the
consumption was 6,700,000 gallons, and in 1827 it
was 7,600,000. The quantity of. sugar consumed
lin 1788 was 1,775,000 cwt., last year it was
3,120,000. In this article also the increase in Ire-

land followed nearly the same proportion. But
the most considerable increase was in the article
of coffee. In the year 1788 the 'quantity con-
sumed was only 750,000 lbs., and the consumption
of last year was 14,000,9801b5. He would not trouble
their Lordships by going into further details. Upon
the whole, he had no doubt of a progressive in-
crease of the revenue, Or of the country being able
to accomplish hereafter a considerable reduction of
its debt. It was upon these grounds that he recom-
mended the Noble Duke to preserve the machinery
of the Sinking Fund. He was sorry to have tres-
passed long upon their Lordships' time, but there
was one observation .he must make, however, before
he sat down. It was difficult to redeem rapidly a
debt so large as ours, without deranging the whole
of the money transactions of the country. On this
account he would not recommend that the redemp-
tion of debt should be persevered mbeyond the time
at which the three per cents. should have reached
par; some other system might then probably be ap-
plied with advantage. The conversion of a large
portion of perpetual into life annuities, might then
probably he found the most advisable course. In coat'.
nection with the subject of life annuities, he
might be permitted to advert to twomeasures which
Parliament had recently adopted upon the recom-
mendation of the Finance Committee.. One, of
thew measures related to the Government Life
Annuities, and the other to the Naval and Military
Pensions. Both of these measures had his full
somepro ba
lossti on
9)-
.had Wit
sequence of the error in Dr. P4-101/4 tables, but this
beenh respect
edt obyt he
the Lei9fuelit
country
intnetni ens.,
loss had been greatly exaggerated. It was quite
right that the priors should be corrected, and that
future loss shoidd be prevented. With respect to
the Pension List, the measure of relieving the pres,
sure upon the country by converting them into an.
nuities for a definite period was strongly recom-
mended by the state of the nation at the period when
• it was adopted. He Wll9 glad,,. however, that the
system was not to be pursued further, as it certainly
counteracted the redemption of debt. He had
taken up a much greater portion of their Lordships'
time than he intended, and he should now conclude
by stating that as soon as the question before the
House was disposed of, it was his intention to move
that the Commons be requested to communicate to

of the Fourth Report oflhe
FthieniarnLc
eordships a Copy
Committee.

The Duke of WELLINGTON did not intend to
follow his Noble Friend through thetletails.of the
subject; he rather rose for the purpose of thanking •
him for the 'excellent speech with which he bad
favoured them, and of expressing his assurance that
their Lordships 'would concur in the within
tended to make. There was no doubt that this
valuable Report contained a great. quantity of highly
important information. He, like his Noble Friend,
saw in it the proofs that the resources of the country
were unimpaired, arid he saw in it likewise abundant
proof of the advantages which had been derived "
from the great plan of Mr. Pitt, for the maintenance •
of an efficient Sinking Fund, and the sfrongest.in-
ducements to persevere in the principles le had laid
down' upon that important subject. He wished,. in
common with his Norde Friend, to draw the atten-
tion of Parliament to thegreat exertions of the coun-
try during the late war, and to thelacility. with which
those vast exertions
.had been nut6,'in consequence -
of the great measure of Mr.. Pitt. He would
not, in the present thin state of, the House,
_
enter into any -"detail of the manner in which
the Sinking Fund of Mr. Par worked in aid of
the national resources during the war. But there
was one fact of so mush importance that he must
briefly advert to it.. The fact was, that the rate of
interest paid by the country upon the whole sums
borrowed during the war exceeded but little five per
cent. This was to be ascribed to this abused Sink-
ing Fund.- This Report of the Finance Committee
put an end to these fallacies, and he hoped would
convince Parliament of the necessity of an efficient
Sinking Fund.- Whether this fund should be 'fixed
or fluctuating—whether it should be applied to the
redemption of funded or unfunded debt, or to the
conversion of permanent. into terminable annuities—
whether its amount should be greater or less—all
these questionS were open to future consideration;
but they mast have a real, efficient Sinking Fund,
consisting of a surplus revenue; and the Minister
would not do his duty who did not urge the country
to provide it ; first, by every practicable effort of
economy; and if this should not be sufficient, then
by whatever means might be found necessary. He
could not sit down without repeating his thanks to
his Noble Friend for the excellent observations he
had addressed to the House.

The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
Lord BEXLEY then moved that a Message be
sent to the House of Commons, requesting that there
be laid before their Lordships a Copy of the Fourth
Report of the Finance Committee. (Ordered.) The
Noble Lord took the opportunity of expressing his
great satisfaction at what had fallen from the Noble
Duke.
The Nouse then adjourned.

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