The Sun.
London, England, 1826-12-12 00:00:00

The Earl of LAUDERDALE remarked, that

there could be no doubt as to the matter of fact as to the ports
being open on the lbth of November. He did not understand
how the transaction which had taken place could be legal. .The
order in Council authorised the importation of oats, and he could
hot conceive how, under it, importation could be prevented until
bonds were given.. Had the returns been made to his motion, he
ihoirld have no occasion to ask this question, for he never intend-
ed to take the Noble Lord by surprise; but, in point of fitct, the
Noble Lord maid: know what the returns required by that motion
were, since he was present at the time when the. House agreed to
it, and might therefore have been prepared to answer the simple
question which had been put, and which had now become import-
ant. The Noble Earl re-stated the terms of his question. He
then proceeded to observe, that no one regretted more than he did,
the eau,. of
.the absence of the Noble Earl ut the head of the Trear
oury. That Noble Lord had objected to state what the measure
was which. Government had resolved on with respect to the Corn
Lawo, and which was to be brought forward after the recess.
Perhaps, the Noble Earl had good.reasons for not giving informa-
tion on that point. But the question he was now going to put,.
Was one of a large description, and which, without knowing all
the regulations and details of the measure, might be answered
without difficulty. Was it the intention of His Majesty'. Minis •
tens to propose io protect the home grower by means of a duty,
or was it their intention to protect hint by a definite price ?
Earl BATHURST reminded their Lordships, that
the object of hiR Noble Friend in postponing the subject of the
Corp Lima until after the Iri;eo6l, W 394 to prevent immature discus-
elan, acrd he felt. confident their lorilithipe must perceive that
he could not give an anateer to the titivation which his Noble'Vrienti
bad put without raising a disCussion. He therefore hoped their,
Lordships would excuse him from giving any answer.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE adniitted that it

rested with His Alajesty's Ministers to give the desired informa-
tion or not; hut he must take that opportunity of 'giving notice,
that be would oppose, as he believed in common with every man
in that House and the Country who underetood the subject, any
proposition which tended to plate the protection of the agricultu •
rill interest on a duty alone. He deprecated a departure from the,
old system of the Corn Laws, which woe, to. fix, either a high
price for importa,tion, or such a dirty as with the .01010 price
would prevent importation. This spasm of prevention was the
only system under which the agriculturists could go on. He only
wished farther to state, that under a system of duties only, there.
Wail no possibility of the farmer knowing what the price of grain
would be ; for their Lordships must -recollect that duty would
not he imposed on the average prices of this Country, and that the
impart 'price would depend on the market prices in Foreign Coml.
tries ;en that every farmer throughout this Country would-find it
necessary to know the market prices of every other Country in the
World. In facti every farmer would he obliged to have a Mr.
Jacob to report to him-on the state of Foreign markets. He con-
cluded by repeating, that he would oppose any plan which. hail
for its foundation the protection, of the home growers by duties
alone.

Lord CALTIMIt PE presented a petition,. pm!
ing for some alteration in the (nrn Laws, from the Chamber
Commerce of Birmingham, which he introduced with a few of
nervations.

The Marquis of SALISBURY thought this peti-
tion differed from othets on the aamistthjeet which bad come be-
fore Parliament, inasmuch fle it insinuated a wish on the part of
the land-owners to obtain exorbitant rents. He conceived that if
any alteration were made in the present system of Corn Lam, it
ought to be by fixing, a positive price under which importation
should be prohibited, or by the imposing of a duty which would
he equivalent to the same prohibition. That duty, howeveri
ought not to be regulated by the ealeulations of Mr. Jacob, or
any other person, on the prices of other Countries, but should be
fixed bythe prices of the home market; unless something of this
kind were done, there would he no security for the landlords of
this Country.
Esrl BATHURST, in rising to move the thir.d
reading of the Bill for granting an indemnity for the admission el
foreign grain, stilted that in the absence of his Noble Friend,
whose continued indisposition prevented him front attending to
his duties in that House, it hecame his businees to shits to their
Lordship" the reasons which induced his Majesty's Miniiters to
advise his Majeety to issue an order in. Council, permitting the
importation of oats, peas, rye, and barley, into this country, under
certain restrictions, at A time when by law they could not have
been admitted. Their Lordships were aware that the importation
of all grain depettded upon the averages struck on the six: weeks
from the four periods of the year—namely, front the 15th of
August, the 15th. of Moveinber, the t rth
kith (1. A..ruary, and the
15th of May.. According to the averages struck on the 15th
of August last, oats and the other species of grain could not by
law be imported. The average price at which the grain in
question could be imported was 27a., and being so, their Lord-
ships would perceive, :that according to the construction of
the law to which the Noble Lord had alluded, that grain
could not be admitted into this country for home consumption
until it reached that price. The constepteoce was, that up
to the Ihth of November no oats could be imported. The
state of the harvest, with reipect, to the corn, was known very
early, on account of the very early season. It was re,../
ported ;to be . partially deficient in some places, hut, the
deficiency of oats was. reported to be universal, With respect to
Ireland,' the Crop of oats was very bad; which formed, Ito I
tem!, in the northern. parte of that.eountrys the chief suiniiiste"e"
of the poor. At the axing time there was every reason to appre-
hend that the Scanty cropOf that food, on which the lower orders
in Ireland subsisted, would be still further diminished by importa-
tion into England, to supply the deficieiwy of the harvest in this
country. In the northern parts of Scotland the crop was also
deficient. A similar deficiency was experienced in Lancashire and
Lincolnshire. With respect to thn hay-harvest, that was unfiw-
tunately, alto very seamy, and the farmer looked with anxiety for
the Meant of P.14)18164( fodder for his cattle. Thus the admission
of foreign prooueninto thie country furnished an additions./ supply
t n the English fermi of ,fused for his cattle. Under all these
(-it-oEllo4l4es, consultia‘even the interest of the agriculturists,
for a large majoity of fanners were placed in a situation of
great inemeeenieror arising from the want of fodder, previous
to the importation 4.1 his Majesty was advised to issue
sit Order iA COOtrii, to OW the importation of oats for home

consumption under certain regulations, which he would state
more particularly to their Lordships. Importation of foreign
grain was permitted, on the condition that the importer
should give his bond for the payment of a certain duty in
the event of Parliament approving of that duty ; hut unless
Parliament should approve of it, the obligation of paying any
thing would cease, as that obligation depended on the consent of
Parliament. Thereftire not one shilling would be paid without
the approval of Parliament. The question now was, what was
the duty imposed by this Act? That duty was one of 2s. Ile
should now state to their Lordships two objections which might
he raised against that duty. One objection was, that it was too
low a duty ; and the other was, that it was too high a duty ; and
in order to meet both these objections, be would state to their
Lordships what were the duties under the existing Act. Under
that Act the importation of oats was prohibited until the average
price was above 275. If the average price should be above 27a.
and below 28s.
.a duty of 4s. per quarter was imposed ; besides
which, there was an additional duty of 2s. which the importer
was obliged to pay for three months from the I bth of November,
making, upon the whole, a duty of 6s. per quarter. This
was the operation of the Act of 1822, which was the Act
on which the corn-laws- now depended. If, on the other
hand, the average price was above 28s. and under 30e. the
Importer was to pay 2s. per quarter, and also 2s. additional
_ .

dui). for three months fret; the -15th of November, to the 15th
of February, thus making a total duty of 4s. Therefore, when
his Noble Friend contended that a higher duty was imposed
on the importer than he ought to have paid, he was wrong,
unless he 'could show that the average price would have been
80e. The question was simply this,—..whether the entering into
a bond to pay 2s. was worse than the obligation to pay 4s. or 65.1
Thus he rout Ate first objection that had been raised to the ma-
sore. Ile would now to advert to the next objection—namely,
that the price was too low. It was asserted, that there had been
so large an importation,--in consequence of the low duty, that the
supply was an great as to he injurious to the market. However,
instead of the importation being prejudicial to the market, he
would assert, that the only question was, whether the present
market price was not higher than it would have been, had the
Corn Laws been left to their regular • course of operation. He
therefore considered than a duty of 21. was not too low a one.—
That it was ten high a one was the assertion of the Noble Lord.
Now, the average prices on the 15th November being below 1100.
the foreign importers would have been obliged to pay 4s. per
quarter, and it could, therefore, he no hardship to thorn to come
under an obligation to pay 2e. In conclusion the Noble Earl ob..
served, that the power of admitting grain when prohibited by

law was one which ought not to he exercised hut on occasions of
necessity; and such necessity, he conceived, had occurred, and
justified the issuing of the order of Council. '
The Earl of LAUDERDALE 'did not think that

the present was the fittest time for entering upon a discussion of
the measure before the House, but hitherto no opportunity had
occurred for him to deliver his sentiments on the subject, and he
was desirous that he might not be understood as joining in the pane-
gyrics Which had been lavished by Noble Lords in this order of Coun-
cil. He regretted much that the Noble Lord at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Council was not present, but he was convinced that his Noble
Friend opposite would meet the discussion in a fair and open man-
lier. In arguing the, question with the Noble Lord, lie was sure
they would not differ about the grounds on which the order in
Cmincil had been issued, nor the law of the land as regarded im-
portation.. The Noble Lotd had stated, that the only ground
his Majesty's Ministers took for issuing the order in Council,
was necessity. This was very proper, but their Lordships would
recollect what had passed in the last session, when it was propo-
sed to sanction the importation of b,OOO quarters of wheat. On
that occasion he (Lord Lauderdale) had maid, why grant any
such extraordinary power ? Ile had contended, that it was in
the power of Ministers to adroit any quantity they thought -fit,
provided the necessity of the ease justified the opening of the ports,
and he had further argued that limiting the importation to 6,000
quarters might Oppear to be limiting the power of . the
Government to that quantity, whereas, Ministers might, on
their own. 'responsibility, have admitted grain to any extent.
—But it was stated that his Majesty's Ministers knew
that there would be a late harvest, and a deficient one
of wheat, and that, therefore, they considered it their
indispensable duty to apply fur a discretionary power. Now, as
to those reasons, it did so happen that the only grain of which
there was an abundant crop was wheat, and that the -harvest, so
fat from being late, was the earliest ever known. So Touch for
prophetic legislation. Ills Majesty had been advised to open the
ports, and the Noble Lord raid very truly that the ports were abut
on that Ifith of August; but did he mean to bay that there war
any thing to prevent the ports being open by the 15th of No=
vember ? lie believed that there was no person who bad attended
to the subject who would.not say that if it had 'not been for the

order in Council, that the ports would have been open at that
time for oats—that is, that the price of oats would have been
above 275. Ministers, therefore, knew, or might have known, as
every man in the country did, that if they had allowed the law to
take its course, the ports would have been open for oats on the
I title of November. The n►erel►ants foresaw this, and had made
arrangements for sending abroad and making purchases. lie
himself well knew that before the order in Council was issued,
many commissions bad been sent abroad ; but the consequence of
issuing that order was, that many merchants who had sent abroad
for oats, found that they tool to pay 2s. more for them than they
expected. All 'that Ministers did by this measure was to inform those
who held grain in foreign countries of the deficiency. He certainly
did not intend to object to this bill of indemnity, because he was
sensible that His Majesty's Ministers meant well in issuing the order
in Council, but he could not help saying that the the only effect
of their measure haul been, to ►rake the mer Chants pay
a higher price for the- grain they purchased, and consequently to
check their importations. The order. in Council could operate in
no other way than that of giving to foreign merchants that infor-
mation in a prompt and in an authentic farm, which would other-
wise have come to them in a slow and uncertain manner. The
Noble Lord ,went on to contend that the rate of duty fixed by -the
order in Council was. entirely too high ; in fact, at 275. no duty
at all should have been i►nposed upon oats, and were' he an im-
porter of that article he should re►aist ti►e payment, and see what a
Court of justice would de afterwards if the case' were brought be-
.fore it. His Lordship then proceeded to review the act'of the 3d
of Geo. IV., and to'contend, that by that art, neither by an order
iu council, nor any other document, should a duty have been im-
posed when oats were as high as 275. Ile did not mean to -assert,
that in the course they hail Trimmed, Ministers were influenced by
any improper motive, hat he denied that the effect of-the Order
had been an increase -of the amount of oats brought into British
porta, but it haul the effect of raising the price of that article, in the
foreign ports.
The Bill was now read a third time and peeseti, anti ordered to
the Commons.
The Exchequer-bills Bill, and the Transfer of Ajde Bill;
were severally reed a second time, and ordered to be committed.
—Adjourned.