The Sun.
London, England, 1828-06-27 00:00:00

DUTIES ON COALS.

The Martinis of DOWNSHIRE rose to present •
a petition from the merchants, manufacturers, and
others, of Dublin, complaining of the duty on coals
imported into Ireland, which they contended had
been increased since the Union, directly contrary to
one of the clauses of the 'Act of Union.
The Duke of WELLINGTON was able to satisfy
his Noble Friend by nn assurance that the petitioners
would receive relief. But, in graying this be did not
think the people of Dublin had any great reason to
complain, and he doubted if they would be at all
relieved by the removal of the duty. The annual
amount of the duty levied on coats in Ireland (we
ibelieve) was only 55,000/. per annum. If the ad-
.4litional duty of Is. 7 id, were taken off, he believed
414 e people of Dublin would no more be benefitted
by that than the inhabitants of London were by the
reduction of 3s. duty on the chaldron, which seemed
rather to have increased than diminished the price to
she consumer. He thought, also, the petitioners had
-lot much reason to complain when their situation was
,:.ompared with the situation of manufacturers in other
places, who had to pay a coneiderable duty, on the
coals they used.. If he compared the half-crown
duty they paid with the 7s. 6d. duty paid in London,
he found that in the latter place the duty was three
times tio amount to what it was in the former. In
other part; of England and Wales the duty was 4s.
a ton, or Gs, chaldron; so that the people of Ire-
land had an advatitage over them. WI respect to
the infringement of the Act of Union, he did not at
the moment recollect when the additional duty wai:
sniposed, but if it were imposed before that Act bad
been pagied 20 years, it was Ain infringement of 'it;
if it were passed after the expiration of 20 years, and
t had now been passed 2S years, it .wes not an in-
fringement.
Earl DARNLEY said, the additional duty was
levied in 1804.

Lord FARNHAM said, it was clearly an infringe-
ment of the Act of Union.
The Duke of WELLINGTON.stated his reso-
lution to apply to the Law Officers of the Crown
for their opinion.
- - -

The Ma,...qms of DOWNSHIRE expresied his.
atisfartion at what had -fallen from his Noble

Friend.

;SLAVERY.

Earl MORLEY presented a petition from Bod-
min, praying for the gradua Abolition of Slavery.
CLERGY RESERVES
.1N CANADA.

The Earl of HADDINGTON held in his hand
a petition from the Presbyterians in LoWer Canada,
which related to the land set apart in that province
under the name of the Clergy Preserves, for the
maintenance ofd pro t es taut Church. It was signed
by 4,000 persons, And expressed the sentiments of
the great majority of the rinhabitants of that part of
Ole province. The petitioners, though all Presby-
.t.exians, were connected with AlitfreKeP:t churches in
Europe; one part of them being in egkrinWn.i9P with
the established Presbyterian Church of Seottlgaid;
mother with the Associate Synod of Scotland; and
another part being in communion with the Synod of
Ulster. The lands for the Clergy had been set apart
by the Act of the 31st of the late King; and the
petitieners thought their Clergy, beinga protestant
Clergy, bad a claim, to a share of these tafids.
y prayed, therefore, that a. portion of
these lends might • be given to their Clergy
men for their sapport. Tire Noble Eari con-
fended that, by the Act 4f • 1791, the lands were
appropriated to a Protestant Chqrch, and that the
Presbyterian Church was a true Proostant Church
recognized,by law. If the claim of the peP;tioners
were granted, he thought in all human probahility that
all these different classes of Presbyterians would unite
under one Synod, thn country would form only one
body under a clergy moderately endowed, and per:.,
baps appointed by the Crown, The policy of attend-
ing-to the petitioners was to be interred from the
neighbourhood to the United States, which he
did not mention as • an example, but as an illustra-
tion ; he merely stated the fact ; and it was a fact
that in the United States there was no Church Ea.
tablishment ; and if this country were to limit the
Clergy reserves to the use of the Church of Eng-
land, it was to be apprehended that what the Ca-
nadians saw in the United states would not
tend to their satisfaction and tranquillity. It had
been stated in another place, and he had heard it
so stated on a former occasion, by Lord Grenville,

the venerable author of the 31st of the late King,
that the words " Protestant Church" were intended
to exclude the Roman Catholic Clergy; and that
they were used with the express intention of leaving
it to his Majesty's Government and the Legislature
to appropriate those reserved lands;at circumstances
might ..ativisedimitif.ig thetn: to -a,Protestant Church.
He heci r:nalotitrio6gaying that, this-was the inten-
tion of the author of the. Act. It was.not his in-
tention to found any motion on the' subject ; but he
begged-leave to recommend the-- petition to their
Lordships' attention.

The Earl of lIARROWBY—As there was no
question before their Lordships but that the pe-
tition ,-be laid on the Table, he would not have
said one wesd.en the subject, had the name of Lord
Grenville not been mentioned. It happened that he
had repeatedly held conversations with idi Noble
Friend, Lord -Grenville, on this very subject; and
he hid not only learned from him, but had been
desired by him to declare, iu the most public
manner possible;that the 31st of the late King was
drawn up by him, in conjunction with Mr. Pitt;
that -they had endeavoured to make it as perfect as
possible ; and they thought they had succeeded in
manifesting a decided intention, as it certainly was
the intention of the Leading Members of the Go-
vernment at that period, when they intro.!uced the
Bill into Parliament, that these reserves were not to
be for the exclusive benefit of the Church of Eng-
land; but that it was to be left to the discretion of
his Majesty's Government to give them to any Pro-
testant Church.

The Bishop of CHESTER thought it extraor-
dinary, if such was the intention of the framers of
the Bill, that it should'hot have been mentioned at
the time. It was very remarkable that no notice
was taken of their Intention at the time when the
Act passed. The Prime Minister of that time dis-
tinctly stated what his intentions were with respect
to the part of the Act in question. As it was a
matter of some importance, he must think those in-
tentions should be taken into consideration, as well
as the late deelaration- of the Noble and Excellent
Lord just referred - Mr. Pitt's words
on that occasion were these, " The second
clause provided, for the permanent support of the
Protestant Clergy, a seventh proportion of the lands
to he granted in futtire. The meaning of the Act
was, to enable the Governor to endow and to pre.
sent the Protestant Clergy of the Established
Church to such parsbnage or rectory as might be
constituted or erected within every township or pa-
rish, and to giVe to such Protestant Clergyman of
the Established Church a part or the whole, as the
Governor thought proper, of the lands appropriated
by the Act. He further explained, that this was
done to encourage the Established Church, and that
possibly it might be proposed to send a Bishop of
the Established Church to sit in :the Legislative
Council." To this statement, which was evidently
made in favour of the Established Church, Mr. Fox
objected. He said, that if there was any establish-
ment, it ought to be either of the Roman Catholic
Church, or of the Presbyterian Kirk of Scotland, as
being the religion of the largest number of the co-
lonists. In the House of Lords no remarks were
made on the Bill, which itself simply said that the
provision was made for a Protestant Clergy. He
would only say, what appeared to him on the very
face of the Coostitution, that whenever provision
was made for a Protestant Clergy, except the Act
related to Scotland, it must be understood to mean
that the provision was made for the Protestant
Episcopal Clergy of the Church of England.
There was one other point in the Noble Earl's
speech to which he felt it his duty to advert. It was
trne, as the Noble Earl stated, that the members of
the Church of England were, numerically speaking,
Considerably inferior to those of the Dissenting Per-
suasions; but be had the authority of the truly ex-
cellent Bishop of Canada for stating, that the Mem-
bejs of the Church of England out-numbered those
of any single persuasion of Protestants. He could
not avoid remarking, that it was to him extraor-
dinary that the members of the Kirk of Scotland,
and others who had been solicited to sign this peti-
tion, under the style of Presbyterians, though they
differed so' widely that it was impossible they could
amalgamate in doctrine or in discipline in this coun-
try, were yet ready to unite in Canada as members
of the Church of Scotland, if they could obtain a
share of the clergy lands. Without expressing any
opinion as to the policy of a provision for the Pres-
byterian Clergy, he would repeat, that they had no
legal right to any portion of these reserves.
The Marquess of LANSDOWNE could not hear
it said by the Right Rev. Prelate, from whom he had
the misfortune entirely to differ, that whenever,
in wording an Act of Parliament, the Legislature
of this country named the Protestant Clergy, it
must be understood that the Protestant Clergy
of the Episcopal Church of England was only
meant. This was not, as the Right Rev. Prelate had
stated, the Legislature of England only connected
with the Church of England. It was the joint Le-
gislature of England and Scotland united together
in perfect parity, and not in a state, of dependency,
on the part of Scotland, either as ,to her Govern-
ment or as to her kirk, but on the same principle
that was eloquently stated by Mr. Pitt, when he-
was recommending the Union with Ireland, a perfect
union on the principle of- perfect equality. So far
frail' its being recognised by the Legislature that
because the Kirk of Scotland was established in that
country by the Articles of Union it was on that ac-
count to be considered as limited to Scotland, the
Legislature had always acted on a principle directly
the reverse.

AO BATHURST ngreed with the Noble
Marquess, that the reference made to the Protes-
tant Clergy did not necessarily apply to the Pro-
testant Clergy of the Church of England alone,
but he thought it did exclude all .other clergy
than those regularly. ordained by some acknow.
l4dged Church; he meant those of the Church
of England and the Church of Scotland.
The Earl of HADDINGTON complained of the
conduct of the Right Rev, Prelate, who had assumed
that the only object of the petitioners was the
spoliation of the Church, for which purpose he re-
presented them us.setting.aSide all those matters of
coroxience which kept them asunder in this country,
and joining in an unprincipled combination.
The Bishop of CHESTER. disclaimed, any inten-
tion of speaking disrespectfully of the Clergy of the
Cbureh of Scotland, or of the petitioners.
After a few words from Lord o.trplitN and Lord
GODERICiff

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND present-
ed a petition from the Coroners of the count), of
Northumberland, for the Increase of their Fees.
Earl GROSVENOR presented a petition from
Clieshire, in favour of Small Notes.

• THE CORN BILL.
The Duke of WELLINGTON moved-that the
Order be read for the third reading of I he Corn Bill.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not tine tP
of,fer even the slightest opposition—nor did he wish
to provoke tmy discussion. There was no one of the
grounds on whielt the. Noble Duke had recommended
the Bill to the approbation 4P(1.• adoption of the
Housti, iu which he did not concur except elle single.
ground—that Llf its being entitled to he considered
as a permanent regnlation on the subject. But he
must not flatter the Noble Duke, or the House,
or
which he would be glad to do, by stating his
expectation that the Bill under consideration would
ultimately prove settlement of this important
question. With g; eat deference he thought that the
protection afforded by this Bill to the landed interest
was less than 'by that of last year, when wheat
should be between 525. and 585., and more when the
price should be between 625, and 68s. per quarter.
•As it seemed more likely that the price of wheat
would vary between 525. and 58s, than between 625,
.ttid.GBa. per quarter,the protection to that extent was
less. Occasions might yet arise when an influx of
' foreign corn would call again for the interference of
the Legislature on behalf of the agricultural in-
terest, and when the oppresive nature of the tax
of from ljs, to 18s, if wheat should rise to prim

between 625. and 6Ss. would also require its in-
terposition on behalf of the consumers. He could not
therefore support the present as a fixed and perma-
nent measure, but it approached nearer to a conclusion
than any that had preceded it,andevery approximation
was so far an advantage. He `could not help okay-
ing upon the change of opinion in the:House. upon
this subject within a single year : the large minority
had been reduced to one-third, or .even:perhaPit one-
fifth of its oriFinaLnumber ; and.numberi bad joined
the majority in favour of the Bill,-beeause they were
satisfied that the former state o&the law Was highly
mischievous arid inconvenient. When he perceived
also that-all the alarms from the warehousing system
had died away, he could not help believing'that the
change corresponded with the general feeling, and
he.hailed it as a good omen for the future, if it were
found necessary still further to amend the law.

The Earl of MALMESBURY said, of all the
evils that could afflict the cultivators of the soil, and
the class of the community to which be belonged,
the most severe was to legislate temporarily on this
great subject : the landlord and ins tenant could
thus never come to an understanding, never arrange
their relative situations, while a large quantity of
land would be left in what he might call a state of
dangerous uncertainty : no man could safely embark
his capital, and the most fatal results only could be
anticipated from such a vacillating system. I do-not
like to allude (said the Noble Earl) to a topic which
may occasion needless alarm ; but I must observe,
that the present appearance of the crops by no means
affords a prospect of an abundant harvest; it is pos-
sible that there may be a general deficiency, but there
certainly will be a partial deficiency. If such be the
case, this measure will he ruinous to that portion of
the country where the harvest is deficient, because
it must be followed by an influx of foreign corn. Those
acquainted with markets will agree with me that
this is a measure favourable to the importer: At
this season of the year the price of wheat is usually
highest ; and but for the expectations from this Bill,
at this moment wheat would be from 6s. to Bs. per
quarter above the present actual price. It is now
from 54a. to 555. per quarter, Winchester, meesure,,
and an instance of the same kind is hardly.to be
found in any preceding year, and certainly not in
1822. The Dpinion, therefore, out of doors unques-
tionably is, that we shall no more get 60s.,which has
been taken as a remunerating price. His Lordship
then proceeded to notice the incidental topic of the
Isle of Man, contending that it ought to be put upon
the same footing as the rest of the kingdom, in
order to guard against illicit importations under
fraudulent certificates of origin.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH—It is satisfactory
for me to be able to inform the Noble Earl, that
the measure he suggests regarding the Isle of Man,
will be brought forward at the earliest, possible
period. Great difficulties have been found in de-
claring the Isle of Man a part of the United King-
dom ; but arrangements for that purpose are in pro-
gress, although the Bill cannot be " brought in this
year. In the meantime, certificates of origin, in the
same way as they are required with produce from
Guernsey, Jersey, Alderney, and Sark, will also be
required from Man, and the utmost caution will be
used that frauds may not be committed. As to the
general arguments of the Noble Marquis and of the
Noble Earl, the former stated, I think, three rea-
sons why this was not likely to beapermanent mea-
sure. Of those three, two—relating to the state of
the currency and of our foreign relations—would
apply to any plan that .might be brought forward;
and on the point of our foreign relations, I may ven-
ture to assure him, that there is nothing more un-
likely than that any thing should arise out of •our
connection with Foreign Powers at the present mo-
ment to affect. the Corn Laws. He also, seems to
think, that tie protection given to the agriculturist
is not enough when the price of wheat is between
525. and 585., and too much when it it between 625.
and 68s. Hence he apprehends that it may be ne-
cessary, at. some future time, to make another change
in the law; but lie will recollect, that before the
Committee it appeared that at all prices above 58i.
the protection is greater in this Bill than in that of
last year, but that at 58s. and below, the protection
would be complete. At 58s. the duty would be is.
Bd.: and from a memorandum I made last year, at
a time when, it might be supposed I was not very
favourable to the Bill, it appears that at .58s. about
500,000 quarters would be impOrted. It is true,
that of this about 150,000 quarters would be of the
finer quality of wheat, bearing a higher price than
the rest by Bs. or 103.; but that I hold to he an ad-
vantage, inasmuch as it is important to the grower
to have a certain portion of the best wheat to work
up into flour with the inferior sorts. On the other
hand, the 350,000 quarters would be perhaps ss. or
6s. below the average price of this country,
and would operate the other way; so that I ap-
prehend there will be no necessity for making an al-
teration in this Bill with a viewto greater protection.
On every occasion when I have spoken on this sub-
ject, I have given niy reasons for thinking that no
Corn Bill can be permanent, and that none ought to
be permanent with a view to equal justice. lam
far from thinking, however, that there are any cir-
cumstances in the present prospect which will oblige
Parliament at an early period to make an alteration.
The Noble Marquis has expressed some surprise at
the altered opinion of this 1-louse upon this subject.
It seems to me that the circumstances of the country
are very, very materially altered. Last year, let us
remember, we were told that something was to be
conceded to the manufacturer and something to the
grower, and I looked at this declaration with great
alarm and suspicion, for at the same time we had
repeated announcements of the adoption of free
trade. We had denunciations from some quarters,
and open threats from others.; and I felt inclined to
make a stand where I could, to maintain principle
and to maintain price, when I feared that by grant-
ing the Bill I was placing a power in the hands of a
Government which did not pay that attention to the
interests of the grower of corn which I contend
every wise Administration is bound to pay. Cir-
, camstances are now greatly changed ; and I am sure
the Noble Earl (Malmesbury) has the fullest confi-
dence that it is the determination of the present ad-
' visers of the Crown to support the agricultural in-
terest. It is impossible to form a Government
which is more strongly convinced of the fitness and
necessity of doing so. Besides, I apprehend there
has always existed in this House a strong disposi-
tion to endeavour to come to some accommodation
or (I may say, though I dislike the word) compro-
mise upon the subject. That accommodation is to
be found in the Bill which it is now proposed to
read a third time.

The Earl of DARNLEY believed that the Noble
Earl (Malmesbury) had taken a more gloomy view
for the future than was warranted by present ap-
pearances.

The Earl of ROSSLYN stat2d his intention to
move an Amendment, altering the descending scale
below 58s. to 2s. duty, instead of one shilling duty.
He should, however, only make one single remark, viz.
that, men found that the general production of corn was
diminishing in proportion as. the general state of the
population was rendered worse; and it, therefore,
became the duty of a Statesman, and of those who
wished to give encouragement to an increased pro-
duction of this country, to afford security for the em-
ployment of capital, rather than to do any thing that
would climinisli the confidence of the agriculturists
in the proceedings of the Legislature. His great ob-
jection to this Bill was, that it would have a great
tendency, not only to discourage the application of
capital, but would produce an apprehension on the
part-of the tenantry of the country, that might
greatly diminish the amount of the production.—
This would place them in a most awkward state.—
He should now propose the same clause relating to
the warehousing system which he had proposed to
introduce into the Bill of last year. He was still of
opinion the duty on warehoused corn should attach
on corn eccording to the price declared upon impor-
tation, which, as their Lordships knew, was an
average ascertained by the receipts.
The Dnke of WELLINGTON wished to say a
few words upon what had just fallen from the Noble

Earl. As he had rather taken that part of the Bill
upon which the most unfavourable impression was to
be made, than on any other point which was not cal-
culated to produce such an impression—he meant
that part which related to the duty between lft
eight shillings and fifty-two shillings imperial nith4'
sure. He agreed that this Bill, if it was not one'
which would encourage agriculture it was fit 'that;.'it.should be amended. It was his opinion that it
would encourage the agriculture of the country, and
particularly of Ireland; and he firmly believed that
this Bill would be a check to the speculations in fo-
reign corn, and that hereafter, if there were specula-
tions of that sort, they would be rather upon British
than foreign. corn, and the duty would be high
enough to prevent those enormous gains that had
been made in speculations of that sort, and, in con-
sequence, we should have speculations and trading
in home corn. That was his opinion. He should
now advert t o the effect of the duty between .its.
and 58s. The latter duty was higher than in the
Bill of last year.

The Earl of ROSSLYN said, it was the same as
in the Bill of last year.
The Duke of WELLINGTON.—WeII, then,
supposing it to be the same, he would take the cal-
culation from that price, because that price was the,
point at which the duty was lowest. Even then he
should say that the interests of the agriculturists
were protected. In what he was now about to say,
he should proceed on the information received upon
the subject of the Bill of last year. He believed
that on that subject they had acquired all the infor-
mation they could. It appeared on the investiga-
tion before the Committee that the best wheat could
be imported from Dantzic at the price of 31s.
There was a great variety of places from which corm
could be imported at a lower price---;.at some places
even for 235., but in many for 2.55. • But he should
take the price of corn, such as could be introduced
into the British market, at 355., and he did not con-
clude that any quantity would be introduced at a
price lower than 31s. T. that sum must be added
295. Bd. as the amount of duty, which would bring
it to 60s. Bd. That was what was called the pro-
tecting price for the agriculturists. He did not
mean to say that it could not be sold at a higher •
price in the markets of England, but that was the
price at which it could be imported, and the seller
must have a profit upon it for -Isis risk, and the
advance of his capital. It might be taken at a
lower price, but he would take it at the average.
The duties were made up at low and at high rates
of prices. In all probability the 'corn itself would
be at first purchased abroad at a low rate, but then
it would have to pay a- duty made upon that average.
Surely under these circumstances the sum of
60s. Bd., which was made up at the lowest rate of
duty, gave a full protection to the agriculturist. If
it was below .575. the duty was then sufficient to
afford protection. At the prices of 31s. Bd., 325. Bd.,
335. Bd., and 31s. Bd., there certainly must be a
sufficient degree of protection afforded by the duty.
They did not want it more than sufficient. On that
ground lie should contend that there ought not to be
a change in the amount of duty. In the discussion
of last year, it was said that higher up, at 645, or
665. Imperial measure, sufficient protection was
afforded ; and he again asked whether they wanted
more than sufficient ? He would now say a few
words in answer to what had fallen from his Noble
Friend with respect to the duty on warehousing
corn. He supposed that the importations from the
Continent would be made at a price that would enable
the men who speculated in them to pay the expense
of importing either into this Country or to any part
of the Continent. They knew well that the cost of
transfer from Holland to this country, or the oppo-
site coast, was 2s. Gd. or 3s. Now, suppose that the
importer, who was bringing corn into this country,
found that the price was very low, and the duty on"
corn warehoused here very high, he would be
naturally inclined to take it to the opposite coast.
If he only waited there till the price was raised 25.,
he would be a gainer by doing so. He would gain
2s• by the increase of price, and 2s. by the diminu,
tion of duty. Thus, by going to the opposite coast,
he would gain all the expences of the transfer. That
was the objection which he (the Duke of Wellington)
had to lay a duty on corn warehoused in this
country.

The Earl of ROSSLYN explained. His object
in proposing a duty on corn warehoused in this
country was to prevent too great an influx of foreign
corn at a moment when the price was very low here.
Earl STANHOPE said, there was an opinion, in
which lie concurred with those who thought that
this Bill was not and could not •be the final adjust-
ment and arrangement of this matter. If there was
no other ground of objection to it, he should oppose
it on that account. The Noble Marquis had told
them that lie would support this Bill, though he did
not believe that it was a .permanent measure. He
would recall to their recollection what had .been said
by a Right Hon. Gentleman, who, to the infinite
glory and satisfaction of the country, was no longer
President of the Board of Trade. That Right
Hon. Gentleman had said (and it should be recol-
lected that at the time he made the statement he
was one of his Majesty's Cabinet Ministers), that it
was not a permanent measure, but that it was only
a step, until the minds of men were prepared for a
more important change. However, to do justice to
his Majesty's Government, that declaration only
afforded a view of what was intended to be done by
one side. But still it was a link in the chain, and,
connected vita the other acts of that Right Hon.
Gentleman and his party, it showed their feelings
towards the agriculturists. It had been remarked
that the minority of last year on the Bill then pro-;
posed amounted to GO, but that the minority of the
present year was 20.. He was not called on to de-
fend the minority of last year. He would not in-
quire why some Noble Lords were absent altogether
. from their duty in that House. He would not ask
bow it was that some of those who voted for the se-
cond reading of the Bill, founded professedly on the
same principle as this, now voted against this. He
would not enter into that inquiry; but lie was at a
loss to understand how the Noble Lord, whose
avowed opinion at the beginning of the Session had
been in- opposition to the Bill, should now have
formed part of the triumphant majority that sup-
ported it. If their Lordships should pass the pre-
sent measure, he should .submit to his Majesty's
Government whether there were not two other mea-
sures which honour and equity, and a consideration
of what was due to justice, would oblige •them
to pass. They knew—every body knew—the
power of a contract, that, like the engagement
of marriage, bound the husband and wife to keep
together for better for worse, for richer for poorer,
and nothing could authorise or require them to act
contrary to its spirit. It was true that, as in cases
of marriage, the state of the contract might be ren-
dered such as to make it impossible to continue it,
and the state of the parties might be such as to ren-
der it necessary that they should separate, and to
justify that House in pronouncing a divorce between
them. So it was unquestionably true,andhe should
contend, that in justice to the parties interested in
this measure—in justice to the numerous and suffer-
ing class of persons who might be. prejudiced by it
—that whether it affected the sewn or. the menthe-
tures,of the country, if they passed a measure which
it was impossible to bring into operation without
violence to one or other of these parties, they were
bound to relieve both from tie contract, and to
leave them at liberty to form a fresh engagement.
There was another observation, which, considering
the affairs of the times, gave him considerable satis-
faction ; and that was, that under the Administration
of the Noble Dike (he said this without any inten-
tion of eompl.iment, but merely in justice to him)—
under the Administration of which he was at once
the chief and the ornament, which was the object of
the admiration and veneration not only Of this coun-
try, but of the whole earth, and which would be
the pride, not only of the present age but of the
latest posterity—the inclinations of the Cabinet
would be more favourable to the agricultural interest
than any other, even than that of the Noble Earl of
whose services the country had lately been deprived.

They had heard from the Noble Baron, and in an-
other place, to w , e_would not allude, and to
which ti4ew ' e to allude in any terms
of praisii'otoictrittdit.dat there was a spirit of
'Twin'fate.:Sittinst !tlie- tilturial interest. It had
:boeli said; that thei' • •%erty was a fair object of
iiiieliationl—ihat the heir estates, not even as
triniteee for the'flettblie •f others, but at the caprice
of any who might-ehoose to despoil them 'of their
property. They had been represented as fair objects
for political experiments; -and in -that- case; it' was`
said, there was no.right to exhaustthe capital of the
country, but to make the burthen fall upon the agri-
cultural interest. Such being the state of things,
and judging from the' eiperience'Ofthe past what
would be the condition of ',the future, he thought it
would be but just and. reasonable; if a general Art
was brought in, allowing the trustees of any persens
entitled to landed property, to go before the Lord
Chancellor, and obtain a decree from him enabling
them to sell that property while it did continue
sacred (and such woulal not much' longer be the case,
if the opinions of the men he had alluded to were
adopted), and to invest the proceeds of the sale-in
mortgages, or in purchases
.of freehold property in
other countries, subject :to the same trusts as the
lands had been which they had previously disposed
of here. They all knew,. and had heard with alarm;
this call for spoliation. He urged them to 'take
measures to prevent that call from acquiring greater
strength. He again 'entered his solemn protest.
against the principle of this Bill, and the conse-
quences likely to result from it. After the question
of the third reading had been Moved, he, should pro-
pose those Amendments which' he thotight indis-
perisible, claiming for himself .the indulgence of a
reply in ease of necessity.

Viscount GODERICH would not now have
troubled their Lordships a second time with hit opi-
nions, had it not been for some observations that
had fallen from the Noble Lord who had just ad-
dressed them. That NOble. Lord had expressed his
unqualified confidence in the Government as now
constituted, and had thought proper to impute to
the Government, which immediately preceded that
of the Noble Duke unfavourable feelings towards
that particularinterest. As far as this` question had
any thing to do with the matter, the Noble Earl
should have recollected that the measure which he
(Viscount Goderich) hid had the honour to intro-
duce last year, was determined on, not by that Go-
vernment of which he was then 4 member, but by
that of the Earl of Liverpool, of which 'the Noble
Duke at that time formed a part, The Noble Earl
had referred to a statement made, he' knew not
where, and to vague absurdities uttered by he knew
not whom, to show that the -principle of that mea-
sure was hostility to the agricultural interest. .He
would defy that Noble Earl to fix any such charge
on the GovernMent to whiCh he had affected to refer
these charges.
Lord STANHOPE said, that with respect to
what he had said, be had done so because he knew
the expressions that had been uttered by a great
political economist on a former occasion, when„ he
used the words—the memorable ' and emphatic
words—" the landed interest must be pot 'down,
and I will sound the tocsin of alarm whenever the
opportunity arrives." But when a contrast was
formed between the Government which now existed
and•that of which the Noble Viscount (Goderich)
had been the head, it would be unnecessary for him
to undertake the description : nor was the .contrast
itself matter for .surprise, when it was recollected
who were the parties of which that Government
consisted. Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Grant, and a whole
party of political economists, had belonged to it,
and therefore let the Noble Viscount say what he
'would about reprobation and calumny, he would re-
peat what he had said, and that he was at,ill times
ready to defend it.
Lord; GODERICH, did not exactly understand
what the Noble Lord had just said about wlittt had
been uttered by a person to whom the Noble Lord
had not yet given a name, but left him quite in the
dark,. with the idea' thit it' was some eminent poli-
tical economist. He ,(Lord. Goderich), however,
remembered, that last year the same expressions had.
been cornmented upon, and that he had 'given the
same answer on that occasion which he would do
now—and that was, that he had never heard any
such expressions used, and he did not believe that
any one had been fool enough to say so.--(dear.)
Lord REDESDALE could not believe that the
measure of last year was the measure: of Lord
Liverpool ; and in the measures that that Noble
Earl had introduced, he thought he could trace that
much of them was owing to the colleagues with
whom he had been associated. One of those
measures had been a Bill for the importation of
corn, for the purpose of relieving the distressed
manufacturers, who bad -amounted.to one hundred
thousand. But what was the measure after all ?, It
allowed the importation of corn; 'but in reducing
the price for twelve millions of people the effect,
must have been, ' that it would not have saved a
shilling a man to the whole of the hundred thousand
manufacturers. Wlien he considered these things,
and how one Minister was involved in the opinions
of his colleagues, he could pity the situation in which
'Ministers might be placed. He was old enough to
remember the time when Mr. Pitt. was called Prime
Minister, and when there was .what was ct.; ed
small Cabinet—he believed ~the expression was, a
Triumvirate; but if any one supposed that in that
Cabinet Mr. Pitt had every thing his own way, he,
would be much mistaken. The Triumvirate became,
by degrees, a Decemvirate, and the' consequence at
last was, that the Administration was dissolved; not
that Mr, Pitt resigned--=No; as he had heard the
expression used by one who knew the circumstances
—he was dragged out I--literally dragged out t
It had been said that corn was dearer here than in
Poland. Why was this t",te case ? Because We'had
an army, a navy, and large establishments to support,
and because luxuriand indulgence 'had more or less
extended themselves to the very lowest classes of
society : all Of which tended to make the value of
money very different in this country from what it
was in Poland. But if the present state of this coun-
try was compared with its former state, he would
venture to say,. that corn was (proportionably speak-
ing) dearer in the time of Charles H. than it was
now. The real truth of the case was, that the high
taxes and vast expenses of the country necessarily
rendered the corn dear •• and until that systeni of
taxation was altered (which, by the bye, he did not
wish to see altered,because he thought that the poor
would be ten times worse off than they were now),
they could not have Torn in pounds, shillings, and
pence, at a lower price than now. The true principle
of the present Bill was to let those who had large,
capital go about speculating, to find in what country'
corn was cheapest, giving them every opportuoity to
import grain till at last the whole country would be
chiefly supplied by importation, and:the corn trade,
be brought to the same low ebb as the present state of
the wool trade, when almost every wool grower in
the kingdom had two or three years' produce still
lying by him. But then, who was it that; bought,
this corn ? The corn-dealers.; and he would yens
tore to say, that for eight .months in the year the'
markets were supplied by the speculators in ; corn ;
such, for instance, was the case in this immense
town, the population of which' had, within his ecol-
lection, increased from five or six hundred thousand
to a million and a half. Under these circumstances,
be slid not think that any Bill could be introduced
into Parliament that was likely to prove a permanent
One : at present all the calculatione, were founded on
the average price of 605.; but if the corn trade sis
to be injured us the wool. trade had been (and this
seemed likely enough), what
,would become of that
average ? What he wished was, that the subject,
should be left alone, because he considered that the
effect of the present law would be to work quietly to
the result that corn would never be, a shilling higher
than it was at present. He was confident that the
cultivation of the country had already suffered by
these measures. He had constilted several peisons
well acquainted with the subject, and he had not met
with one who had not said that almost every farm
was under stock; and that a great many of hem